@MikeJ: "I've had one too many customer come in with their bikes and fit 
information from a "professional" bike fitter where, for the stem, the 
fitter designated a stem of "x" reach with "y" angle. No big deal? It is 
when the "y" angle is something like 81 degrees, and the customer 
believes that such a stem should actually exist.
The only relevant measurement for handlebar height is the drop (or rise) 
from the top of the saddle. How you get there is irrelevant (aside from 
aesthetics). For example, you can get to the same height with stems of 
differing angles, simply by putting spacers above or below it. If you 
need spacers above and don't think that looks nice, you can cut off the 
extra fork column length. The exact angle of the stem is irrelevant, 
providing it can get the bars where they need to be.
Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
<url>
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA "
    @mikej1: ""Ryan Cousineau" <email_address> wrote in message 
news:rcousine-408959.18322509122008@[83.161.120.155.nw.nuvox.net]...
<quote>
If you're trying to duplicate the fit from one bike to another, that's 
correct, start with the bottom bracket and work out from there. Seat 
height, seat setback from bottom bracket spindle, distance from seat to 
handlebar, drop or rise from seat to handlebar. Basically all the 
contact points in some way reference back to the bottom bracket.
Note that doing so won't create two bikes with an identical feel. 
Geometry still comes into play; shorter and longer stems create a 
different feel, although in my opinion you very quickly get used to the 
differences between bike A: with a longer top tube and shorter stem vs 
bike B: with a shorter top tube and longer stem. I had two bikes that 
differed dramatically in that regard when I raced, and had no issues 
switching between them. We are amazingly adaptable to the machine when 
we ride.
Mike     Chain Reaction Bicycles
<url> "
    @dryadsdad: "<quote>
Perhaps but is that really the whole story? I don't think so.
I had my first bike set up with spacers - yes it fit me but it also was 
weighed down by those spacers making it impossible for me to go uphill 
with the original gearing. So I got a different cassette which made it 
impossible for me to go downhill. Finding it impossible to swap 
cassettes at every dip or crest of hill, I took to carrying the extra 
rear wheel, but I kept splitting my rims due to using bladed spokes 
which cut through the rim in a hemispheric manner.
Finally, my friend the bicycle expert realized that if I just shed the 
*#*&# spacers and went back to the stock cassette, I'd solve all my 
problems. I did and it has.
A gram is a gram is a gram."
    @bgilbert: ""Mike Jacoubowsky" <email_address> wrote in message 
news:YUD%k.9883$<email_address>
<quote>
We keep seeing the same thing here too. Someone is doing some weird fittings 
out there. Once the folks are uncomfortable enough, they start asking others 
if there is a better alternative. That is when we seem to get the call. In 
the past number of years, there appears to have been a trend toward seats 
too low and far back. and bars way too high. It is like there is an attempt 
to cater to seriously overweight, softbody customers who should be on 
hybrids instead of a race bike.
With the amount of road/charity rides these days, a road bike is a natural 
(and correct) choice for the average corporate rider. Maybe the shops just 
want to get the folks out of the door quickly, but the fitting errors I am 
seeing are really hurting the customers.
On the other hand, there are a number of these custom fitting establishments 
opening up. I wonder if bad bike shop fits is a symbiosis of some sort? 
Sounds like the link between the food and drug companies in this country. 
Has the bike business finally learned from the evil empire?
Bruce "
    @bgilbert: ""<email_address>" <email_address> wrote in message 
news:<email_address>
<quote>
Take the 80 degree stem behind the service counter
into the shop area, put it on the "stem bending machine,"
bring it back out, and put the customer's new 81 degree
stem onto the bike.  No charge for the custom adjustment.
Problem solved.
The stem bending machine is on the back bench next
to the drawer with the left-handed skyhooks.
Ben
But, first send the helper down to the engine room for a bucket of steam...
Bruce"
    @dark2star: "Hi,
<quote>
Well, you can substitute the stem against another with a different angle
as long as the handlebar clamp does not move in relation to the frame.
Take a piece of paper and draw the steer tube, stem and handlebar clamp
(as seen from the side). Add the measurements and show him in the
diagram that you can substitute the stem against a different one if you
correct the steer tube height ;-) Also tell your customer that the
ideal(TM) stem is parallel to the top tube and that the 81� stem misses
that (if it does) while the 76� stem (of course with the slightly longer
top tube) would be ideal... So, no change in handling but a more
appealing bike and the use of "standard" hardware (what if the stem
fails later on) should be an argument.
Actually, my bike dealer would look that up in the catalog in front of
me and tell me "no way dude, take the other one and adopt the head tube
length" - and if I insist he says "you really don't want to do this" - I
know him well enough to adhere to his suggestions :-) Even if I don't
like them...
Ciao.."
    @mikej1: ""Qui si parla Campagnolo" <email_address> wrote in message 
news:<email_address>
<quote>
==========
We like Andy Pruitt a lot but we get this from him and his bunch all
the time. 104 degree stem please...They need to have a catalog with
possible stems to use a reference.
=========='
I think it's an attempt to dazzle the customers with tech & jargon & 
precision. Actually, I think it's an attempt by companies selling fit 
software and systems to try and convince people that you need to provide 
this degree of BS to the customer so they think you're offering 
something more than the other guy. After all, if the shop down the road 
can't figure it out, they must not be doing as good a job, right?
Ultimately it's my hope that this thread will come up in google and be 
something people can reference (and understand how silly it is to 
believe you need an 81 degree stem).
Mike     Chain Reaction Bicycles
<url> "
    @rexkerr: "<quote>
I've always documented my bike setups with the BB spindle as the 
reference for my own usage so that I can recreate the fit on a different 
bike quickly and have always had really good luck with it.  Every time I 
go to a LBS and ask them to set up a bike using the given measurements 
for a test ride I am told "that's not how you do it!" and they refuse to 
use my measurements.  It's frustrating because I know that they work.  I 
use the same saddle on all of my bikes (Brooks B17), so it makes it even 
easier because differences in saddle nose length go away.
Work and recreation are not often effected at the same time.
One using a bicycle in business makes an exception to the rule.
       - Dr. Edgar H. Earl, Rochester.  (~1892)"
    @am: "<quote>
Hey, once the guy has spent $300 for a 'personal fitting', what's a 
custom stem worth? 2 degrees may be the magic secret McGuffin!
Andrew Muzi
  <<url>
  Open every day since 1 April, 1971
** Posted from <url> **"
    @john: "<quote>
That's when you put on your Rene Herse outfit and custom make the stem 
for the customer.
:-)
John (<email_address>)
** Posted from <url> **"
    @dark2star: "Hi,
<quote>
Yup, though I would rather say, in this case it's the position of the
handlebar clamp in relation to the steer tube ;-) I would expect the
fitter to have adjusted the steer tube correctly in relation to the BB
and saddle ;-)
Yes. And I know what a pain in my dealer's neck I sometimes am ;-)
Ciao.."
    @MikeJ: "<quote>
Not much need for an adjustable stem; we have a "stem wall" that's got a 
zillion options to choose from. We'll take measurements, consider how 
they're going to ride and what their "shape" is (which is a bit 
different from what shape they're in) and choose something appropriate, 
then watch them actually riding to see that there isn't something else 
to consider. Then at the 30-day check we talk with them some more about 
how they're riding and how things feel and make further adjustments as 
need be. Of course, we tell them not to wait for the 30 day check if 
there's an issue... regardless, some people think they're supposed to 
suffer for 30 days. Sigh. Specifically, they'll come in for the 30 day 
check, we ask them about their riding, and they'll tell us that the 
bike's great except for this one issue since they picked it up. We ask 
why they didn't bring it in sooner, and they tell us they thought they 
were supposed to wait 30 days.  :>)
Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
<url>
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
"incredulous 2" <email_address> wrote in message 
news:<email_address>"
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