@josephfg: "Supposing for a moment that the accusations of the SDAs and some
others are correct, that the Church uses the sword to destroy
heretics, what is wrong with that?
First we have the notion condemned as error:
<url>
[It is error to believe that] 24. The Church has not the power of
using force, nor has she any temporal power, direct or indirect.
Now the question, why is that an error? Or in other words, why is it
legitimate for the Church to use force, particularly in exterminating
heretics?
Which is worse, loss of life or loss of Faith? The answer is that loss
of Faith is decidedly worse. One who dies with Faith (and in the state
of grace) will be in Heaven. One who lives, having lost Faith, is on
his way to Hell.
The insidiousness of heresy is that it inevitably draws away those
whose faith is weak. Those who are mature in Faith have less to fear
from heresy than do the babes in Faith, in particular our children.
The littlest of children become easy prey for heretics, simply because
they are not yet firmly established in Faith, and little children tend
to believe what they hear. Indeed, it is the most natural course, to
believe what one hears  to disbelieve takes more sophistication.
That is one reason Our Lord said, "whoever does not enter the Kingdom
of Heaven like a little child will not enter mitchell02@example.net."
The Scriptures say, "ye shall not suffer a witch to live." But
heretics are worse than witches. Witches, it seems, do not generally
try to make converts  heretics do. A witch can inflict harm, but
cannot inflict the loss of salvation. A heretic can inflict the loss
of salvation upon the little ones in Faith.
The final Word on this comes from Our Lord Himself:
Matthew 18:6. "But he that shall scandalize one of these little ones
that believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone should be
hanged about his neck, and that he should be drowned in the depth of
the sea.""
    @josephfg: "On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 18:31:23 GMT, <email_address>
<quote>
Let me guess  you did a search in the Bible for the word "judge?"
But the burning of heretics does not judge them, it only detroys their
bodies, and removes them from the position of luring the little ones
into sin. What is being judged is their false teaching, and it is
being judged because it is at variance with the Truth the God has
revealed. God is yet the judge of their souls."
    @josephfg: "On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 19:29:17 GMT, "Truth"
<quote>
Deuteronomy 20:10. If at any time thou come to fight against a city,
thou shalt first offer it peace.
20:11. If they receive it, and open the gates to thee, all the people
that are therein, shall be saved, and shall serve thee paying tribute.
20:12. But if they will not make peace, and shall begin war against
thee, thou shalt besiege it.
20:13. And when the Lord thy God shall deliver it into thy hands, thou
shalt slay all that are therein of the male sex, with the edge of the
sword,
20:14. Excepting women and children, cattle and other things, that are
in the city. And thou shalt divide all the prey to the army, and thou
shalt eat the spoils of thy enemies, which the Lord thy God shall give
thee.
20:15. So shalt thou do to all cities that are at a great distance
from thee, and are not of these cities which thou shalt receive in
possession.
20:16. But of those cities that shall be given thee, thou shalt suffer
none at all to live:
20:17. But shalt kill them with the edge of the sword, to wit, the
Hethite, and the Amorrhite, and the Chanaanite, the Pherezite, and the
Hevite, and the Jebusite, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee:
20:18. Lest they teach you to do all the abominations which they have
done to their gods: and you should sin against the Lord your God. "
    @mbugalNOSPAM: "Why do you crosspost this trash into a.r.c.p. ?? Newsgroup removed!
His and yours,
Mike Bugal
Heartland Chapel Ministries
<url>
news:<email_address>
<quote>
way.
way.""
    @r: "<quote>
***  Did the Taliban burn heretics and witches at the stake? .
� R.L. Measures, +1-812-732-6797, <url> + in adr = spam trap"
    @rwknappnoscam: "news:IxZpb.1635$<email_address>
<quote>
says...
What is your point here, the above is true and proven by your words below.
sold, was
heart?
words
heard
out,
when his
her, Tell
[9]
tempt the
husband are
straightway at
her"
    @rwknappnoscam: "news:Uqqqb.2253$<email_address>
<quote>
Why ask, if your going to answer to?  Then Faith could mean anything, and a
whole lot of non-christian things as well.
What is worse lost of faith in Jesus as the Lord?  Would be a better
question, then just Faith.
against
When you take things out of context it is just like the "faith" question,
you lose the meaning of the statement, and why it was writen.
You have no idea what each of us think let along believe."
    @r: "<quote>
***  If the Faith is a human creation, what then?
� R.L. Measures, +1-812-732-6797, <url> + in adr = spam trap"
    @r: "<quote>
news:<u4Bqb.121$<email_address>>...
news:<email_address>...
policies,
government.
�  We don't need it, the Curia does.
A heretic is anyone who doesn't buy our shtik.
� R.L. Measures, +1-812-732-6797, <url> + in adr = spam trap"
    @r: "<quote>
news:<email_address>...
***  During the Church of Rome's Fourth Crusade, Pope Innocent III ordered
the killing of All the residents of Beziers, France.  When His Holiness
was informed that there thousands of good Catholics living in Beziers, he
said to kill everyone and let God sort out the good from the bad.  100,000
died during the 4th Crusade.  
 - "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from
religious conviction."
-   Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
� R.L. Measures, +1-812-732-6797, <url> + in adr = spam trap"
    @josephfg: "On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 13:14:11 -0500, Joseph Geloso
<quote>
Add Deuteronomy 20:10-18.
I admit that I made this post knowing it would stir up trouble. That
was bad of me, perhaps.
I want to clarify what I mean by it: I am NOT saying it is high time
for the Church to wipe out all her opposition. I believe we have
passed from the age when "there is a time for war," and we have
entered the age when it is "a time for peace"  despite what evil men
are still doing in the world. I think the "war," now, is in the realm
of ideas. Thus, the internet, and Usenet. 
Many people say things here that if they said them in "real life,"
would get them beaten up or killed. The difference between today and
the days gone by is that when the heretics who were killed said the
things they were saying, it was far more difficult to shut them up any
other way. One could not just turn the computer off. One could not
simply restrict their childrens' internet access in order to protect
their innocent young minds. The heretics were in the streets,
preaching blasphemy against God's Church, and no one could escape
their venom.
All this goes to say that it was natural in those days that they would
piss off the wrong people, who would have them killed. So that is on
the natural level.
On the supernatural level, the Scriptures speak for themselves. The
Church had just as much authority to call for the death of heretics as
the Jews had in Old Testament times, and the Jews were literally
commanded by God to wipe them out, and the reason  
Deuteronomy 20:18. "Lest they teach you to do all the abominations
which they have done to their gods: and you should sin against the
Lord your God."
 is clearly spelled out."
    @r: "<quote>
**  Does a humble person assault and batter street vendors?
� R.L. Measures, +1-812-732-6797, <url> + in adr = spam trap"
    @rwknappnoscam: "news:<email_address>
<quote>
Well David when we get down to it, this whole line of post are kind of
absurd.  Then I never said I was humble all the time did I?  Then humility
is a weakness to some, and fake to some, and noting but a joke to others.
They would use it to win a argument, and then laugh behind their backs that
he put on over on them.
I do not need to carry more weight in the newsgroup, I am happy as it is.  I
do like easy come backs, they do get attention, look your replying aren't
you?  If we do not get attention then what we do say, is lost.  I 'm glad
your feeling friendly right now, does that mean most of the time you do not?
Raymond"
    @r: "<quote>
**   If street vendors are not providing a needed service in an area, they
will go to an area where they were needed.   If said street vendors were
committing crimes, it's a good bet that Pontius Pilate would have nailed
'em pretty damned quick because Roman governors were undoubtedly 100% Dead
serious about Pax Romani.   I do not believe that Jesus thought his Dad
lived in the Jewish mitchell02@example.net.    If He does, you Catholics and
your infallible leader are in some deep feces.
� R.L. Measures, +1-812-732-6797, <url> + in adr = spam trap"
    @josephfg: "On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 13:36:09 GMT, "Truth"
<quote>
Absolutely, it is error. God should be honored as the King, and the
King should rule the world.
Those who killed the Saints and Martyrs were trying to destroy God's
Church  I am trying to build it up.
I'm pretty sure you don't think so.
In any case, my point in posting these things was not, as you suppose,
to reinstate the Inquisition or anything like that. My point is simply
this: EVEN IF the Church has in fact destroyed heretics by the sword,
the fact would still not make her antichrist, nor the Pope antichrist.
The passage from the Book of Deuteronomy proves that God in fact
commanded that Israel should wipe out those who might lead them away
from the true religion, with the sword. There are many who claim, just
because of passages like this, that the Old Testament God is a God of
intolerance and hate. But you don't buy into that, do you? Some have
made the charge against God that He is a murderer and commanded
genocide. But really what He was doing was protecting the doctrinal
purity of the ancient Old Testament Church.
The New Testament Church possibly did the same thing, although the
historical sources we have for this, you will no doubt agree, cannot
be placed on a level of reliability with the Bible. That she had the
power to do so, no one denies. What I am submitting is simply that she
also had the authority to do so.
Is it better to be patient with heretics, pray for their conversion,
and suffer them to live? Certainly it is. But when they manifest that
they are not going to convert, no matter what, and they start drawing
innocent souls away from the Truth, then they have become more than a
nuisance  they then become a danger to souls. 
As to whether it is worse to be a danger to the soul or to the body, I
think you will agree that it is worse to be a danger to the soul."
    @r: "<quote>
�  Who were you referring to clearing out? 
�  I would not clear them out either politely or violently,  I would walk.
�  Well excuse me!  What then?
� R.L. Measures, +1-812-732-6797, <url> + in adr = spam trap"
    @rwknappnoscam: "news:<email_address>
<quote>
I do not count your reply as of any value, since I do get too many replies
to my postings now.  Then lightweight is only in your eyes, and it is not
your ways, then so fare your ways, is not what I would want to follow, and
most of what you did write here to me, would fit you better, then I did not
think it was my place to put you in your place, but you here did bring it
up.
Attention is what is needed, if your mind has already been closed, because
the person you post to has not accepted your teachings, and do not think
your able to teach what the Bible does say.  You would wee them as such,
when in fact it is you that has the problem your trying so hard to pass off
to others.  Then my replies are not fallacious, if anything your statement
here could fit that category.
Then a real friend doesn't pat one on the back and say "well done" when it
isn't, a real friend tells it like it is, no matter what your feelings are
or how you will feel about it.  That is a friend.  Then I do not
misrepresent, and such silly self lifting remarks only show you are
misrepresenting things for your own agenda. Then you did not fully answer my
question, more like just an excuse.
Raymond"
    @r: "<quote>
�  Robbers should be terminated a.s.a.p. because one never knows if they
are armed or not.  Humility is a whole nuther ballgame.   The street
vendors who were assulted and battered were not robbers.
�  Did you read "Jesus, A Revolutionary Biography"?
�  yes
� R.L. Measures, +1-812-732-6797, <url> + in adr = spam trap"
    @josephfg: "On 11 Nov 2003 00:23:39 GMT, Susan Williams
<quote>
1. Why do you shout?
2. I am none of the above. I am not damned, I am not super, I am not a
terrorist, and I am not a killer. So save your emotional ranting. If
you want to reply in a reasonable tone I will answer you, just as I
have been answering someone else from your sect."
    @rwknappnoscam: "news:<email_address>
<quote>
[snipped the old and replied to part]
It is wonderful to see you always trying to think what is in my head.   You
have no idea what I conceive or think, but you will play your game anyway,
so go ahead.   Nothing you say or do or I do is a personal attack, all you
are to me is a name on a post, nothing more nothing less.  For all I know
you could be ten year old boy or girl playing adult with a computer.  So
please don't waste my time with all your self analyzing.  Then what I did
say, must of been correct and so, there really is no need for you to reply
to this.  So now it is projected attacks, grow up and learn what world you
are living in.
Raymond"
    @rwknappnoscam: "news:<email_address>
<quote>
respect
of
profess
Then is this about Jesuit and the priesthood?   I know a lot about them, had
some as friends in the past.  I am anything but uneducated, and I sure you
know it, so you need to use such an excuse to hid the fact you really don't
know what your talking about.   Bigoted of what? for what?  Do you even know
the meaning of that word?  Again I work with all kinds of people, all kinds
of races, and never been called by anyone that knows my friends and such a
bigot, that is really cute.   I am so sorry you see color and races, I just
see people, and if you feel I am a bigot because you think race and such,
then you just enjoy your falsehoods if that is what makes you live.
Raymond"
    @josephfg: "On 11 Nov 2003 03:28:59 GMT, Susan Williams
<quote>
Do you really think that I am even capable of things like Saddam
Hussein did? You don't know mitchell02@example.net.
Wow, where are you getting all this? Sounds like somebody has some
skeletons in that closet!
Who called you "cyberdemoniac? Is that what you are?
Who called you insane? Are you insane?
Who called you hateful? Are you hateful? All I asked is why are you
yelling?
You are a liar for calling Catholics "super-terrorists," though. You
won't necessarily be damned for your lie. You can repent, as long as
God gives you the grace, and He will give it to you if you ask.
You were the one shouting, not me. Sounds like you still are.
Your shouting does nothing to impress anyone.
That much is true. But fear not! Divine Mercy embraces all, including
heretics.
1. The Church is not a cult.
2. No one has condemned anyone to extermination.
3. If anyone did, it would bother me. It bothers me that Churchmen
acted in such ways. But acting in such ways still does not make them
antichrist, nor does it make the Pope antichrist. And I only wanted to
point out that they had both just cause and precedent from the
Scriptures. Mercy is better than harsh justice, but justice does not
by that token cease to be just.
A killer is one who kills. I have never killed anybody. So if you call
me a killer, that makes you a liar."
    @rwknappnoscam: "news:<email_address>
<quote>
When one does post into a newsgroup, that post is then, in an open forum and
anyone and everyone can reply.  That is the rules of the newsgroups they can
join in the discussion, private email is where personal and to only one
person only is for.  Then she can do as she wishes and you can also.  Now
the best to you and yours.
Raymond.
right
the
I
had
you
don't
know
kinds
a
just"
    @r: "<quote>
***  the caps lock key on his keyboard is stuck?
� R.L. Measures, +1-812-732-6797, <url> + in adr = spam trap"
    @r: "<quote>
**  So if you were in line at a bank and a mo fo robber with a 10-gauge
semi-auto shotgun held up the bank teller at the next window, you would
_____________________?
� R.L. Measures, +1-812-732-6797, <url> + in adr = spam trap"
    @r: "<quote>
�  In this area, Hebrew Temples are all about greenbacks.  Seats are sold
like seats were sold for $275 at the recent Simon and Garfunkle concert,
except that the seats in a Temple go for one hell of a lot more money 
especially in Encino.   I can not believe that The Almighty lives in such
a place, nor do I believe that Jesus kicked the asses of pushcart vendors
therein who were undoubtedly providing a needed service.  If the Saturday
Sabbath was such a big deal to Jesus the Christ, why don't "Christians"
observe it?
��  So the D.C. snipers could very well receive your Humble rating?
**  It is my opinion that assaulters and batterers are justified in doing
so only if they are attacked first.  In that case, the use of a chainsaw
is OK with me,  If the assaulter is not assaulted first, he/she would not
receive my Humility Rating.  
**  Should not defending the Christian church include defending the
actions of its founder?
*** Insults are not nearly as effective as using what the Church teaches
and doesn't do as ammunition.  The Church says for the Faithful to let the
heirarchy do the thinking.  I believe common people should do their own
thinking.  I see the pedophile-priest scandal of 2002 as a wakeup call
since -  in the 1990s - the heirarchy undoubtedly dropped the ball.
� R.L. Measures, +1-812-732-6797, <url> + in adr = spam trap"
    @r: "<quote>
�  Stopping a robbery by whatever means available has nothing to do with
humility.
�  If the moneychangers had been charging an unreasonable percentage,
folks would have taken their business elsewhere.  
�  Jesus lives in the Temple of Jerusalem?  Do the followers of Jesus go
to Temple on Saturdays?
**  If the moneychangers were armed robbers, the Guv,  Pontius Pilate,
would have had them crucified as an example.  
�  But of course, Crossan's d�nouement-question about the key element of
Christian doctrine not being mentioned in a number of Christian scripturs
must be a sticky wicket for someone who has put all of his/her eggs in one
basket.    What if the Sermon on the Mount is actually right about the
means of securing forgiveness of trespasses?  What if water is not a
sin-solvent?
� R.L. Measures, +1-812-732-6797, <url> + in adr = spam trap"
    @r: "<quote>
�  What weapons did the robbers bear?
� R.L. Measures, +1-812-732-6797, <url> + in adr = spam trap"
    @josephfg: "<quote>
Whatever. I'm not here to impress you, and, if you care to take note
 which I doubt you will - you have entirely misread me. But I don't
care. "
    @r: "<quote>
�  Did God tell you this?
�  Who the hell was robbing the money exchangers?
�  So jesus did nothing to stop the robbery?
�  All of the money exchanging in Jerusalem took place in the Hebrew Temple?.
�  He impregnated His mom?
�  In the RCC, sure.
**  this was hearsay.  
�  I read his book.    What are you smoking?
� R.L. Measures, +1-812-732-6797, <url> + in adr = spam trap"
    @josephfg: "On 12 Nov 2003 01:10:53 GMT, Susan Williams
<quote>
I am certain Ted Seeber does not condemn all non-Catholics. In any
case, even if he does, he does not have the authority to. Only God has
the authority to judge. 
The Catholic Church is based on two assumptions only:
1) Love is the most important thing in the Universe, and the only
thing to be considered when it comes down to it.
2) Sin is incompatible with love.
The entirelty of the rest of Catholic Doctrine flows from those two
principles."
    @josephfg: "On 12 Nov 2003 17:00:06 GMT, Susan Williams
<quote>
Are you a "cyberdemoniac," Susan? What is a "cyberdemoniac?"
Are you hateful?
Just asking.
Which is more precious, the life of the body, or the life of the soul?"
    @r: "<quote>
�  chortle
�  To win, declare victory stentorianly and bailout.
� R.L. Measures, +1-812-732-6797, <url> + in adr = spam trap"
    @josephfg: "On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 22:59:33 GMT, "Truth"
<quote>
I cannot justify anything at all, not even myself before God. But God
commanded the killing of those whose beliefs differed from the
Israelites, and He explained the reason why. The reason God gave for
these killings was, "lest they snare you into false worship."
Apparently, doctrinal purity was more important to Almighty God than
the lives of those who thought differently.
Was the Church wrong in applying these principles she found in the Old
Testament? Maybe. I leave that to God to judge. And so should you. 
I do not hate. I understand how you can think I do hate, and I am
truly sorry for that. My intention here is to deflate the arguments
against the Church, that come from Seventh-Day-Adventist doctrine. 
The SDA's assert that
1. The Church has very definitely done some very bad things, and
2. Therefore she is Antichrist (or the Whore of Babylon).
I cannot disprove the first mitchell02@example.net. I don't think the present
Holy Father would have apologized for so much if at least some of it
wasn't true. But the conclusion does not follow from the premise.
There is missing the middle term, if the above would be a proper
syllogism. Such a middle term would be something like:
Anyone who does very bad things is the Antichrist (or the Whore).
Brought into the light, that premise doesn't hold up. I have done some
very bad things, and I am not the Antichrist. Saint Paul went about
murdering Christians, and he is not the Antichrist. God's Church is
composed almost entirely of sinners, at least while in Church
Militant. But of those who authentically belong to God, they are
sinners who recognize their sins, and are sorry for them.
There are also those in the Church who are not authentically in the
service of God, and this has been so from the very beginning, as Our
Lord Himself chose Judas for an Apostle. Some of these, no doubt 
and even some who do love God, since all are sinners  have gone too
far in one direction in their zeal for the Church. 
But none of this makes the Church the Whore, or the Pope the
Antichrist. Nor do the Adventists Scriptural references supposedly
showing the Church and the Pope the way they see it, hold up to
scrutiny. Others are better equipped to address these questions than I
am, and some have done so. you will have to do your own research on
this, but perhaps you might start with a search on newadvent.org for
"antichrist." That's what I did, and I found some stuff, and I'm not
going to go over it with you here.
I do understand that, and I pray daily for the grace to keep His
Commandments.
How do you keep His Commandment to "do this in memory of me?""
    @josephfg: "On 12 Nov 2003 23:45:40 GMT, Susan Williams
<quote>
No.
In what way?
Are you defending "abortion rights," now?
If you mean the United States of America, that is an entity that has
outlived its usefulness, almost. The true Government of this world is
the Roman Catholic Church, and God will bring about the triumph of His
Church."
    @josephfg: "On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 21:02:35 GMT, Pat Barker <email_address>
wrote:
<quote>
Pride is one of the seven deadly sins, and God gives graces through
His Church to overcome such things.
Of course it is tragic when anyone sins, and tragic doubly when one
who is in God's Church sins. But when *I* sin, I say it is *my* sin. I
don't say "we." I don't accuse "us" of sinning  only myself. 
George said there is no such thing as "group guilt." There is
individual guilt, and there is the Sacrament of Confession."
    @josephfg: "On 13 Nov 2003 13:26:25 GMT, Susan Williams
<quote>
The difference is fairly obvious. The Old Law and the Old Covenant was
with the Nation of Israel. The New Law and the New Covenant is with
the whole world, whomsoever wishes to serve God, moved by His Grace to
desire it and to pursue it. The serving of God is accomplished in His
Church, the Roman Catholic Church. The True Religion of the Old
Testament is commonly called Judaism. The True Religion of the New
Testament is known as Roman Catholicism.
The really significant difference is contained in the fact that the
Sacrifices of ancient Israel were intended to prefigure the One
Sacrifice of Calvary. God is not truly pleased with the blood of bulls
and sheep. He is truly pleased with the Bloody Sacrifice of His Son,
which was done once and for all on Calvary. Now, He is truly pleased
by the unbloody re-presentation of that One Sacrifice, in the Holy
Mass.
Now I have answered one of your questions, Kindly answer one of mine:"
    @josephfg: "On 13 Nov 2003 13:36:33 GMT, Susan Williams
<quote>
No.
Then you contradict me. Why ask a question if you have already made up
your mind you won't believe the answer?
1. The Society of Jesus, a.k.a. the Jesuits, is not an evil entity the
way you want to paint it.
2. I am specifically not a Jesuit, though I do love Saint Ignatius
Loyola.
To the point, do you ask pointed relevant questions? Judging from the
above, the answer is no. If you already think you know my answers, and
if you are going to contradict my answers in any case, why am I in
this discussion with you? You can carry it on perfectly well by
youself. That appears to be what you want to do.
God the Holy Sprit reveals it to me."
    @josephfg: "On 14 Nov 2003 20:49:49 GMT, Susan Williams
<snip>
Susan, we are done. I apologize for upsetting you with the Biblical
defense of the Church's claim to have temporal power. I knew it would
upset you, and that was wrong of me. So please accept my apology.
I am tired of being called antichrist by you. That is not who I am. I
love Christ, my Lord and my God. I pray that He may enlighten you and
bring you into the fulness of His Church. Amen!"
    @josephfg: "On 14 Nov 2003 21:00:39 GMT, Susan Williams
<quote>
It is obvious that you hate the Catholic Church. I can only warn you
that she is the True Bride of Christ, and He greatly loves her  so
if you love Him, you should love her as well."
    @r: "<quote>
**  Congrats, Susan.  The Achilles' heel of True Believers is carefully
examining the workings and history of the $alvation $ervice to which they
subscribe.
� R.L. Measures, +1-812-732-6797, <url> + in adr = spam trap"
    @r: "<quote>
** Does Catholic inculcation work like magic or what?
� R.L. Measures, +1-812-732-6797, <url> + in adr = spam trap"
    @r: "<quote>
�  Those in the belly of the beast know not where they are.
� R.L. Measures, +1-812-732-6797, <url> + in adr = spam trap"
    @bastaschs: "On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 04:23:05 -0800, <email_address> (� R.L. Measures)
wrote:
<quote>
  It works like any kind of indoctrination stuck into dear little
ears.  It identifies itself as the one and only true religion and
highest good.  Therefore to doubt the doctrines is to put truth,
religion, good, and personal mitchell02@example.net.  That's the built-in
wickedness of Catholicism, just as it is in all "isms".  Then, after
an adherent starts thinking for him/herself must go through the hell
of separation anxiety and ostracism while growing up and growing out
of the eccliastical prison.
 - pl -"
    @r: "<quote>
�  But some have better inculcation techniques than others.  Catholicism
is about as good as it gets.
�  Alas, 'tis all too true.
� R.L. Measures, +1-812-732-6797, <url> + in adr = spam trap"
    @josephfg: "On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 04:19:44 -0800, <email_address> (� R.L. Measures)
wrote:
<quote>
Salvation is the Gift of God to those who love Him. It is found within
the Catholic Church, and nowhere else. No charge is required for this
salvation, so there is no question of your insult above, with the
dollar signs. It does cost what you apparently are unwilling to give
 a broken heart and a contrite spirit."
    @josephfg: "On 15 Nov 2003 16:23:50 GMT, Susan Williams
<quote>
No I'm not, Susan. Get over yourself. 
I forgive you for calling me antichrist, as I know you know not whence
you speak."
    @josephfg: "On 15 Nov 2003 16:23:50 GMT, Susan Williams
<quote>
You are my neighbor Susan, and that is why I treat you with charity
and respect. I do not expect the same treatment from you in return. In
return for the charity and respect with which I have been treating
you, I fully expect to be called antichrist again.
Is that a fair enough answer to your question? If it is, then we are
done discussing this, and as I said before, may God bless you,
enlighten you, and lead you to the fulness of His Truth. Amen!"
    @josephfg: "On 15 Nov 2003 16:28:07 GMT, Susan Williams
<quote>
Our Lord said, "by their fruits ye shall know them."
Therefore, the religion that is capable of making human beings into
Saints is the true one.
I go by the fruits, as God's Word instructs. The true fruit of
Catholicism is found in her Saints. Read, therefore, what they wrote,
and you wil be encountering the evidence God has given as to who is
His True Church.
I do not deny that atrocities have been committed by Churchmen in the
name of God. But also, beside them, in every age, God has raised up
Saints as true testimony to the Church. Saint Joan of Arc is one such
Saint. She loved God and she loved God's Church, and the very Church
she loved burned her at the stake, but she did not give up her love
for her or for Him, and now she is honored universally as *Saint* Joan
of Arc.
Sorry Susan, It was difficult to see this question amid all the
shouting you were doing accusing us Catholics of being "ANTICHRIST!!!"
As I answerd this in another place in this thread, it is you, Susan,
who are my meighbor, and that is why I have consistently treated you
with charity and respect. And if you can point to any place in any
previous post of mine where I have failed to do so, I will gladly
apologize for that. "
    @josephfg: "On 18 Nov 2003 06:26:26 GMT, Susan Williams
<quote>
I forgive you for calling the Pope antichrist, as I know you know not
whence you speak."
    @josephfg: "On 18 Nov 2003 06:28:16 GMT, Susan Williams
<quote>
What can I do about those alleged billions, other than pray for their
immortal souls?
I respect you, Susan, and in return for that respect I get called
"servant of the antichrist.""
    @josephfg: "On 18 Nov 2003 06:37:14 GMT, Susan Williams
<quote>
No, I was referring to Saint Francis of Assisi, Saint Teresa of Avila,
Saint Maximilian Kolbe, Saint Ignatius of Loyola, and on and on and
on, the Saints throughout the centuries. It is these that are the
authenitc fruits of the Catholic Religion.
No, it's just that doing a lot of shouting will cause any human being
to stop listening to you, and you have to make up your mind whether
you want to continue the shouting, which is rude by the way, or ask
questions and get answers.
First of all, you would be hard pressed to prove "billions" have been
condemned to death. The population of the whole world during the
Inquisitions was far less than one billion.
Secondly, what is the issue here? I though you wanted me to answer
your question, "who is your neighbor?" Which is it?
I am having a little trouble following the logic of the above
paragraph, if any exists.
I have not treated you with charity and respect, or, I have not failed
to do that?
1. Your statement that I and fellow Catholics are servants of
antichrist is a lie, perhaps not even a human lie, but human beings
are involved in it anyway.
2. I do not lie. When I told you I didn't see your question amid all
your shouting, it is because I didn't see it amid all your shouting.
I answered your question. What more do you want from me?"
    @r: "<quote>
**  The fate of Mormon men is considerably worse than Hell.  In the
top-level of Mormon/LDS heaven - a.k.a., The Celestial Kingdom - the LDS
God may assign each Mormon man a hundred or more wives.  As I see, one
wife is a delight,  but a hundred of 'em gives me a hellish fright.
� R.L. Measures, +1-812-732-6797, <url> + in adr = spam trap"
    @josephfg: "On 19 Nov 2003 05:15:40 GMT, Susan Williams
<quote>
No, and the Pope is not antichrist. He's the Vicar of Christ, the
successor of Saint Peter. Come on, you know this! Take off the
blinders  lose the SDA inculcation, and think for yourself. Has Pope
John Paul II killed anybody recently? Ever? Has any Pope, in your
lifetime, ordered "the extermination of all non-Catholics?" What does
the Second Vatican Council say about religious tolerance? You can find
these things out, and none of the answers support your  or rather
the SDA's  wild claims.
That is what Antichrist does, though a reference would be good because
I don't recall that phrase from the Scriptures. Still  that is what
antichrist does, and it is definitely not what the Pope does. So you
have a problem here. Your world view does not match up with the
reality of what goes on in the world.
Well, all Catholics must die too, so how would non-Catholics be any
different? Everybody dies. It's just a matter of time.
Correction: I ignore you *because* you mitchell02@example.net. Get it? Now calm
down and we'll discuss things. "Let us reason together, says the
Lord."
I think it is entirely unfair and even unwise of you to assume you
know what concerns me. The thing that concerns me the most, here and
now, the reason I answer you at all, is the salvation of *your*
immortal soul.
<snip> 
I am not about to start defending the views of others on the
newsgroup. Let them speak for themselves. Stop lumping me i together
with them. And deal with me as an individual. Fair?"
    @josephfg: "On 19 Nov 2003 05:19:40 GMT, Susan Williams
<quote>
If they aren't dead yet, then how can you blame me or the Church for
their murders?
I have already told you, I'm not a member of the Society of Jesus,
though I do love Saint Ignatius of Loyola.
Saint Ignatius, pray for us! Amen!
I do not ask you for a lollipop, Susan. I ask you to calmly and
rationally discuss what's bothering you about me and about Pope John
Paul II. So far, nothing has surfaced. You are more concerned with
what your cult has indoctrinated you with, and what others, not me, on
this newsgroup have allegedly been saying.
Calmly  that means, take a chill pill, Lil!
Rationally  that means, at least make the effort to form resonable
statements, as opposed to emotional rants.
Discuss what's bothering you about me  so far, nothing you can point
to. And about Pope John Paul II  so far, nothing you can point to.
Not, "look what the Jesuits have done!" Not, "Look what Ted Seeber has
said!" Deal with me, and what I have said. Otherwise, there is no
point in me answering you. 
Of course, if that's what you want, if that's what you're trying to
accomplish anyway, then by all means forget rationality and do just as
you have been doing. I answered your question, "who is your neighbor?"
The answer is, it is you. And I have consistently treated you thus,
and you are not about to make me stop. But you can make me decide to
ignore you, unless you would rather get somewhere in this discussion.
I leave that up to you.
You will have to deal with Ted Seeber about what Ted Seeber wrote. 
And you will have to deal with Teresita about what Teresita wrote.
Address *my* answer to *your* question, which you were so insistent
that I give an answer to, and which I now have: you are my neighbor,
Susan. What's next?"
    @josephfg: "On 19 Nov 2003 05:34:14 GMT, Susan Williams
<quote>
I forgive you for calling me super liar and killer of the Antichrist,
because I know you know not whence you speak.
But I did answer it!
Since I have answered your question and since you have called me a
liar claimiing I didn't, it is you who are lieing about me.
I would need to be a killer myself, before I could have
"fellow-killers."
Whether or not anybody did that, I don't know, because I don't read
the stuff you want me to defend from other people. I am not here to
defend someone else on the newsgroup. I am here because I am concerned
about the eternal welfare of people like you, Susan, who are my
neighbor as I've said.
"Against his imitation?" Please clarify, this phrase is obscure.
You want to divert the attention away from the dialogue between you
and me, and I am attempting to divert it back. Deal with me. It
doesn't matter what others have said. I do not control those others,
nor would I, as I am a Catholic and in no way interested in control,
unless it is self-control  one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit.
O.K. I have answered question one: "Who is my neighbor?" The answer
is, you are my neighbor. Without flying off the handle, can you give
me question two?
I doubt that, as billions are not about to be killed. It is rather,
that billions are about to be converted by God to Roman Cathoicism.
That should concern you, because you are one of those billions, and
your sect is about to disappear from the face of the Earth, never to
rise again, while you yourself are about to be saved, if you want it.
No one is calling for the death of heretics these days. I, in union
with the Church, desire their conversion. That is what God desires.
Ted Seeber's opinion, even if he is only trying to get your goat (and
succeeding), is not what concerns us here. What you claim to be
exposing is the actual designs of the Roman Catholic Church. My
concern is to dispel your false notions about that, and therefore you
should be dealing with me, unless you are too scared that I might be
telling you the truth, in which case you will continue to divert and
bring up irrelevancies like long posts about what Ted Seeber is
needling you with."
    @josephfg: "On 20 Nov 2003 07:06:43 GMT, Susan Williams
<quote>
Whatever, Susan. We are done. May God Bless you and guide you to the
fulness of the truth! Amen!"
    @josephfg: "On 20 Nov 2003 07:23:48 GMT, Susan Williams
<quote>
1. I don't have a cult. I am a Catholic.
2. God earnestly desires the conversion of all non-Catholics to the
Catholic Faith, in which alone one finds salvation.
3. I do not speak for nor defend the actions of any of my
fellow-Catholics.
4. We are done discussiing this. Have a nice life!"
    @josephfg: "On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 21:41:27 GMT, "BigUn" <email_address>
wrote:
<quote>
He it is, and He is in the Catholic Church, according to His Promise
to remain with us always, even to the end of the age."
    @andrew321: "<quote>
They would  -all-  agree that the ranter is psychiatrically challenged;
except for Cindy, which would make that 90% agreement."
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