@michaelpressNOSPAM: "I have Avid Ball Bearing Road disc brakes on my commuting (road) bike.
The pads have a little play in them - they'll rock about 1mm if you
push forward and back (along the axis of the bike, not in toward the
rotor) on the little pad mounting stems.   (Avid tech support sent me
new pad mounting clips but it only reduced the pad movement slightly.)
Here's the problem - the front brakes squeal when the applied at any
pressure less than death-grip.  Rear brake is fine. The brakes work
great, but the squealing is loud and VERY annoying.
Are the pads supposed to move that much?  Is that likely the cause of
the squealing, or is this just the kind of disc brake squealing I've
read about on this NG?  I recall suggestions about using mud on the
rotors to reduce squeal - any suggestions for that?
Thanks,
Michael"
    @mikeshawTWO: "news:<email_address>
<quote>
Have you tried cleaning off the rotors with Dawn and water?  Sometimes when you
get oily fingerprints/etc. on the rotors is screws everything up.
If the Dawn + H2O don't work, then try some really fine mud.  It may scrape off
both contaminated layers.
If you haven't done it, reverse the QR on the wheels so you're not tempted to
grab the rotor when you're installing the wheel in the dropout.
HTH,
M"
    @michaelpressNOSPAM: "<quote>
Wow, sounds perfect.  I need some more loctite anyway, so i'll look
for the stuff at the auto parts store.
Thanks,
Michael"
    @michaelpressNOSPAM: "<quote>
Tried it last night.  It stopped the squealing for the first 7 miles,
but then it returned... :-(
Michael"
    @John: "news:9tJzc.3246$<email_address>
<quote>
I'd love to get the EBC pads.  Who might be a good source for them in the
U.S.?
Thanks,
John
== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==
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    @michaelpressNOSPAM: "<quote>
I've never used V-brakes, but discs are far far superior to road rim
brakes, especially in the wet.
Michael"
    @mikeshawTWO: "news:<email_address>
<quote>
"Better" depends on how you define it.
In the muck and slop, discs are FAR superior.  In general JRA it isn't as big a
difference.
M"
    @michaelpressNOSPAM: "<quote>
I can't.  When it gets really wet my stopping distances increase
dramatically.  I get almost no braking at first, until the pads
squeegee off the water on the rim.
I weigh 210# and ride in urban traffic, so I prefer the shortest
possible stopping distance when I'm approaching a traffic light at the
bottom of a hill at 30mph in heavy rain with a truck coming through
the intersection.
Michael"
    @mikeshawTWO: "news:IAw*<email_address>
<quote>
By your argument, why did you leave cantis?  Or Rollercams, or Scott
Self-Energizing brakes, or...  I could endo with my cantis, skid the rear wheel
with U-brakes.  They don't do anything that V-brakes do.
How much stronger braking do you need when you can skid the tires with cantis?
Discs aren't really superior to cantis, Vs, or even Rollercams in the respect
that all can lift the rear wheel, or skid it if you want to.
Where discs shine is when the rims get wet, dirty, and/or worn.  Discs have none
of the speeding up feeling that brakes do when a rim's wet.  They don't grind
down the sides of your rims when you've been running thru the mud.
And best of all, they're easily replaceable vs. rebuilding a wheel.
Now, discs aren't for everyone.  If you ride on bridle trails and MUTs, ferget
it.  Don't need 'em.  Come riding in the woods of the middle Atlantic (or the
UK) when conditions aren't perfect, then they're not a bad thing.
M"
    @mikeshawTWO: "<snip>
<quote>
That's great, but there's people out there saying categorically "disc brakes are
crap."  In more extreme conditions, discs are probably the best choice for
braking.  All most other places and for more moderate riding, y'all are right:
discs are overkill.
If I lived somewhere where it rained LOTS and I HAD to ride in it, I'd have
discs on my road bike too.  There's nothing like being able to stop without
having to squeegee the water off the rim.
I live in San Diego, so I'm happy with the performance of my road calipers.  In
fact, I was tickled pink with the performance of my Dia Compe BRS200s (single
pivot) for many years.  The only reason I'm not still riding them is that they
went to my little brother in VA.  Who is still riding them!
I can still remember almost flipping myself over the bars shortly after DP
brakes came out and I upgraded one of my bikes.  I was used to grabbing a
fistful of brakes.  The DPs allowed you to grab fingerfuls of brake and do the
same thing.
M"
    @carlfogel: "On 18 Jun 2004 17:19:14 +0100 (BST), David Damerell
<quote>
Dear David,
Perhaps you ought to say "paved road" or throw a tantrum?
Carl Fogel"
    @mikeshawTWO: "<snip>
<quote>
Don't let him get to you.  I think he just likes being contrary just to be
contrary.
I'll do the same thing, but I'm not quite as snooty when I do it.
M"
    @mikeshawTWO: "<quote>
 David Damerell <email_address> Kill the tomato!
And you're sure of this?  I know that if you ride a pair of ceramic rims with
normal pads, sometimes you do have to change pads after one ride.  Ditto with
carbon wheels.  I have firsthand experience with this one.
Conceivably, if you do go ride a muddy road on a road bike, you COULD have the
situation where you'd need to change brake pads pretty quickly.
Not that a road bike would do real well on a mud-fest ride, but that's another
story.  A cross bike maybe, but not a road bike with slicks.
M"
    @carlfogel: "On 21 Jun 2004 15:11:35 +0100 (BST), David Damerell
<quote>
Dear David,
This is not true for two reasons.
So far, you've had time for two replies, the second
amusingly claiming that you have no such time.
Even more entertainingly, Jim isn't the one who looks like a
nutcase.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel"
    @dianne_1234: "On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 09:58:22 -0700, "SDMike" <email_address>
wrote:
<quote>
Found a report about Eki wearing down his brake pads in 100km. From
<url>
"Ekimov suffered during the two Belgian season openers, particularly
the second one, Kuurne-Brussels-Kuurne, which followed Het Volk."
"The Sunday race was held in cold rain and the road was so slippery
and the tempo so brisk that there was no end to the braking in the
peloton. After 100 km Ekimov found that his brake pads had worn down
right to the metal.""
    @carlfogel: "On 21 Jun 2004 20:58:44 -0700, <email_address> (Tom Young)
wrote:
<quote>
Dear Tom,
Possibly what Jobst  was saying was that people ask him why
he saves worn brake pads while at the same time the same
people (not Jobst) claim that (something about wear and
weather) is impossible.
Since no one was claiming in this thread that brake pads
could not be worn to the metal in better weather than Ekimov
wore his brake pads down to the metal, it's a somewhat
puzzling post.
There may be something intended about brake pad wear versus
rim wear, but I couldn't figure it out, either. Let's hope
for clarification.
Carl Fogel"
    @michaelpressNOSPAM: "<quote>
Well, that's still a blanket generatlity (condemnation? ;-), just of
disc brakes for road bikes rather than disc brakes in general.
I'm the original poster of disc vs. rim brakes for road bikes, and
disc brakes absolutely provide an advantage over rim brakes.  I've got
a road bike with Ultegra double pivot calipers and a road bike with
Avid mechanical disc brakes. I frequently alternate them, in wet and
dry conditions, so I have frequent direct comparisons between
high-quality rim and disc brakes in various weather conditions.
And, as I stated earlier in this post, 1) in dry weather the disc
brakes stop me slightly faster, 2) in light rain conditions the disc
brakes stop me noticeably faster (i.e. the rim brakes start increasing
stopping distance), and 3) in heavy rain conditions the disc brakes
lose no stopping power at all over dry conditions, while the rim
brakes double or triple their stopping distances.  The discs also
retain "modulation", meaning good feel for how much brake is being
applied, in all conditions;  the rim brakes lose modulation in the
wet, where you pretty much have to mash them to get any stopping
power.
This is my experience. Others may have different experiences, but
unlike other posters, I won't discount their experiences with blanket
generalities.
Michael"
    @michaelpressNOSPAM: "<quote>
The "wet" part seems to escape you.  
Again, discounting others' experiences...
Uh huh.  Oh yeah, NOW I remember learning "disc brakes suck" in math
class.
Just so you know, I won't be responding any more to your posts.  It's
not worth my time to argue with someone who just likes to be contrary.
Michael"
    @michaelpressNOSPAM: "Jobst, I'm having some trouble understanding exactly what you're
saying here, so please indulge some (possibly obvious to you)
clarifications.  I believe that you're agreeing with my subjective
impressions of rim brakes becoming ineffective in the presence of lots
of water, and are stating that you have done some studies to validate
those theories. 
<quote>
I have no idea what most riders visualize.  I've stated my impression
that wet rims brake ineffectively;  is that what your tests
conclusively show?  Can you provide more detail on these tests?
By "No brake effect during immersion" you mean that braking was
completely ineffective during immersion?
So by "Braking came back to typical wet weather effect" you're stating
that when the melting snow supplied a flow of water on the rim, the
effect was the same as during immersion, that is little or no braking
ability?
Thanks,
Michael"
    @mikeshawTWO: "<snip>
<quote>
<snip>Kool-Stop Continentals.
See, there's the difference.  You're riding some aftermarket pad while Eki is
probably riding the stock D/A pad.  I know that I've had wear issues on my D/A
pads pretty quickly.
As always YMMV,
M"
    @tsherman: "<quote>
While the above is true theoretically, in the real world a brake that 
provides better control of its modulation will allow the rider to apply 
a force closer to the theoretical maximum than a brake with poorer 
modulation would. This MIGHT allow for shorter stopping distances on a 
bicycle equipped with a front disc brake (all else being equal), even 
though both the disc brake and rim brake are strong enough to cause the 
rear wheel to lift.
Tom Sherman � Quad City Area"
    @timmcn: "jim beam <email_address> writes:
<quote>
Mud, perhaps, but not just water as in rain on the road.
Have you ever been to England?  It's not exactly Holland-like in its
terrain.  San Francisco type hills are not hard to find in England.
You should try Minnesota's winter riding conditions...  ;-)"
    @timmcn: "Michael Press <email_address> writes:
<quote>
Think of it as a water film between the brake pad and the rim.  Riding
through a deep puddle, the water competely coats the rim and is
constantly resupplied.  Once you're out of the puddle, the rim dries
off rapidly when the brakes are applied.  Riding in the rain, water
gets onto the rim in a random pattern from falling raindrops and
splashing from the road surface, so the film is not as fully coating
the surface of the rim and is not as constantly resupplied, so the
brake pads have the chance of drying off the water and getting more
friction against the rim (I think this is what David D. was referring
to).
Yup, that's how I read it.  If it's cold enough, the layer of water on
the rim will freeze and then you've really got no brakes.  This is
common here in Minnesota for winter riders as the temperatures are
below the freezing point for about 7 months out of the year.  An
outlying town recorded an overnight low of 33 deg F last night...  We
haven't had summer yet and may not, at the rate things are going.
In really cold weather I either find something else to do, or I ride a
bike with some kind of hub brake (a coaster brake wheel on my track
bike, in my case).  It's way too dangerous to be riding in an urban
area- chock full of oblivious latte-sipping cell-phone-talking SUV
drivers- without any damn brakes.  Life's too short to be stupid."
    @marksouth: "news:<email_address>
<quote>
The roads I've ridden have enough grit on them that the rain splashes up an
unpleasantly abrasive-sounding mixture onto the rims.
One good reason for having hard brake pad material is that the grinding sound of
wet braking goes away once the grit washes or scrapes out of the pads.
With soft pads, it embeds permanently and the scraping never seems to go
away....
I had a laugh over this comment by "jim beam".  It's not unusual to find roads
in England with gradients of more than 1 in 7.
In fact, rain is always at slightly above freezing temp.  The difference is in
the ambient temperatures of the air you experience with it.
Mark South: World Citizen, Net Denizen"
    @bclewis: "<quote>
I can lift my rear wheel in heavy rain too.  However, I've still found
there to be an increase in stopping distance; the brakes don't start
grabbing as quickly.  It hasn't had a large enough effect to make me want
to rush out and buy disc brakes, but it's quite noticeable.
Benjamin Lewis
Base 8 is just like base 10, if you are missing two fingers.
		 Tom Lehrer"
    @mbarrs: "Benjamin Lewis <email_address> wrote in
news:<email_address>: 
<quote>
That's why I'm leaning toward disc brakes on a new town commuter/light 
trail bike. It's more about quick response than the degree of stopping 
power, when a car or a dog pulls out in front of you. I live in the Pacific 
Northwest, and the roads are sloppy and wet for about half the year. I've 
never loved the way rim brakes work in the rain, so I thought I'd try disc 
brakes with this project.
On the other hand... I remember reading someplace (maybe here?) that the 
slower reaction time with wet wheels and rim brakes is a better match for a 
wet/slippery road surface. I think the idea was that if you couldn't 
instantly lock the wheel, you'd be less likely to skid on a wet road. Or 
something like that. 
I'm not sure that makes sense, but I'm curious what everyone else here 
thinks about it. It seems to me that if you have good modulation and an 
experienced rider, it's always an advantage if the brakes are immediately 
available, instead of having a delay to wipe water off the rim. But I don't 
know (never having used disk brakes). Maybe there is a kind of automatic 
safety factor in the balance between reduced tire grip on wet roads, and 
delayed response with a wet wheel and rim brakes?
Mike Barrs"
    @timmcn: ""Mark South" <email_address> writes:
<quote>
I use Mathauser or Koolstop salmon pads, which do not seem to get grit
imbedded in them, for this very reason.  Brake pads should be one
smooth chunk of material with no grooves or whatever- all those do is
entrap grit.
Like 1 in 4...  :-o
Rain?  Minnesota winter?  Bwahh-haah-hah!  Not much rain falls at 20
below F.  ;-) Although the last few winters have been very mild with
very little of this, allowing more winter time riding in
above-freezing temps (and greater likelihood of cold rain).  Once the
water bottles freeze up on a ride, I park the bike and wait for warmer
weather.  I admit it, I ride 6,500 miles a year but I pretty much am a
fair weather rider.  I see no reason to be miserable in the pursuit of
having fun."
    @timmcn: "foldedpath <email_address> writes:
<quote>
Well, not only is the water an issue but anodized sidewalls on rims
also adversely affect wet braking.  With bare aluminum braking tracks
on the rims and Koolstop salmon pads, wet weather braking is pretty
good (relatively speaking)."
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