@sabu77: "Today, a caller to Dr. Edell asked about a story from Paul Harvey about a
product that might cure all cancer. Dr. Edell really took on Paul Harvey,
saying how much he disliked Harvey and his reporting of snake oil products.
I never heard Dr. Edell get so excited about anything.
Robert"
    @docminister: "<quote>
Allow me to be devil's advocate here. Your comment above would indicate 
that you feel that broadcasters should arbitrarily make thumbs up/thumbs 
down decisions regarding what material gets on the air based on little 
more than some station employee's whim. If you are asking that stations 
research each and every product whose spots are mentioned on the air, 
the effect would essentially be decision by whim when the employee in 
charge was too busy to actually look it all up.
What if, for instance, you had a magnificent product and went to buy 
time. You put money together and tried to do some local advertising. The 
station's advertising standards and morality screener might say, "I've 
never heard of that product and I can't really find out anything about 
it." So you get a little letter back that say, in essence, "Advertising 
Refused".
Is that what you want? Surely not.
This is true...and it is why when I see such a label, I turn around and 
walk away. I can't be the only one.
John Higdon
365.456.8758"
    @sabu77: "news:<email_address>
<quote>
Depends on who decided and how the product was determined to be
"magnificent." If you cannot find anything about a product, and never heard
about it, advertising should be refused. New products are never kept secret
after they are released.
Robert"
    @peterh5322: "<quote>
The production qualities are about the same as that paint company ... 
the one with the gravely voice at the end.
And, Bernie does have that voice characteristic, from time to time.
As to the truth of galvanized vs. copper, the substance of the ad is 
true. Galvanized does develop pinholes as it is electrically welded, 
and has discontinuities in the welds on the inside, although the 
outside appears to be smooth and continuous.
One Super Bowl Sunday, I had the galvanized piping in my master suite 
addition let loose, flooding said addition with hot water.
My domestic feline discovered the problem as she attempted to gain 
entrance to the master suite, probably to go to sleep on the bed, and 
she could feel the electricity in the now soaked carpeting.
I myself was nearly electrocuted by this leakage, water and electrical.
Substantial demolishing was required to isolate all the galvanized 
piping, and at the end of the day three separate lengths of galvanized, 
all in separate areas of the addition, were found to be defective.
In such a circumstance, ALL the galvanized ... hot water and cold ... 
should be replaced with copper, and it was. (The original part of the 
residence was already all copper).
Oh, a hidden electrical defect was also discovered, the defect which 
tormented my feline and nearly caused the electrocution, and was 
repaired and all electrical devices were provided with new grounds to 
the new copper cold water piping."
    @docminister: "<quote>
I have copper pipe throughout, but an electrician, who checked the 
bonding on my standby generator, gave me a tip that he said could 
prevent a number of problems: electrically bond the hot and cold pipes 
going to the water heater. This takes electrolysis stress off the heater 
itself, and can defuse a potentially dangerous situation involving 
water-using appliances.
John Higdon
365.456.8758"
    @peterh5322: "<quote>
Usually, a hot water heater is plumbed using a brass pipe nipple.
It is OK to bond a brass inlet nipple to a brass outlet nipple.
It is probably not OK to bond non-brass to non-brass, and many plumbers 
take a short-cut and plumb using galvanized nippes.
What I am specifically concerned about is electrochemical differences 
(and for which so-called "dielectric unions" are employed).
As it would turn out, my galvanized secondary system was bound to fail, 
anyway, as there were no dielectric unions between the primary copper 
systems (hot and cold) and the secondary galvanized systems.
Now, all systems are copper, and the cold system is continuous 
throughout the residence, and to the premises grounding electrode."
    @manboobs: ""Tiernan" <email_address> wrote in message 
news:Tu5xh.7529$<email_address>
<quote>
I guess I know the rest of the story now.... "
    @peterh5322: "<quote>
A physical examination of all removed piping revealed various failures 
in every continuously welded section of galvanized piping, one of which 
failed completely thereby causing the flood, and the others of which 
all had so-called "pin hole" leaks, and had been leaking ... drop by 
drop ... into the framing, but, fortunately, these progressed no 
farther."
    @sabu77: "news:<email_address>
<quote>
A section of my galvanized piping starting leaking badly after about 34
years. I got bids from $5K to $15K to replace with copper or $1,500 to
repair it. I replaced it. The building code was just changed to allow
plastic piping. Cheaper, but I'm not sure what it does to the water.
Robert"
    @peterh5322: "<quote>
There are several alternatives to copper which are a polymer (a more 
accurate term for "plastic").
A few are rated for hot water, but most aren't.
The slickest polymeric replacement I've seen is one which is reinforced 
and is connected by a special crimping scheme.
This is fast, efficient, and saves much labor, but is much, much more 
expensive for components.
A specific advantage is the absence of connections, except where 
absolutely necessary.
As most know, interconnections is where most installation failures occur.
(Material failures can occur anywhere ... in the pipes, in the 
fittings, or in both).
If I'm doing my own work, which is rare, I'll go with copper.
Be aware there are at least three "weights" of copper pipe."
    @peterh5322: "On 2007-02-04 06:12:32 -0800, Dave Barnett 
<quote>
True, but waterpipe grounds are no longer code.
Grounds must be wired."
    @s_emerson: "<quote>
We might start with the prod dept who should have finally qc say over 
the station. In this case, probably rushed it through then forgot to go 
back and redo.
As to the corrallary between pipes and md-s why leave out mattresses, 
big screen tvs and toyota 102?
Well because medical quackery is far more dangerous to life an limb. I 
know some of us like to poke fun at Bernie, but don't think he was the 
first, I'm a little sorry at the implication that he bought pipes with 
his endorsement, however.
Dean"
    @docminister: "<quote>
After more than forty-five years, the copper pipes in my home are as 
good as they were when the house was new. Friends with houses (or 
plumbing jobs) no older than mine with galvanized pipes are suffering 
from all the advertised maladies, e.g. low water pressure, leaks, 
off-color water, etc. 
If it's a scam, it's a pretty good one.
John Higdon
365.456.8758"
    @peterh5322: "<quote>
Even 35 years is considered good for galvanized.
In L.A., an area of hard water, 25 or 30 years is considered good.
When I sold my place in L.A. I honestly put down "low water pressure" 
on the CA-mandated disclosure form.
Of course, the problem was systemic, and the new owner had to replace 
all the piping, from the water meter to every fixture in the residence.
My present residence is all copper, with 55 years on the original 
piping, and 10 years on the replacement piping."
    @PhilKane: "On Fri, 2 Feb 2007 15:36:46 -0800, "Robert" <email_address>
wrote:
<quote>
Ask him about circumcision.....that's when I turned him off because he
turned me off.
Phil Kane
Beaverton, OR"
    @PhilKane: "On 3 Feb 2007 03:21:28 -0800, "David Kaye" <email_address>
wrote:
<quote>
You should have been at our house in the fall of 2005 when a hot water
pipe inder our basement was so corroded that the pressure caused a
breakage (the pipe looked like swiss cheese) that spewed water all
over the place.  Cost us almost $2K above the measly amount that
insurance  covered to replace the piping, and redo the floor and walls
that had to be torn up to find the breakage site.
Phil Kane
Beaverton, OR"
    @PhilKane: "On Sat, 03 Feb 2007 10:35:59 -0800, John Higdon
<quote>
National Electrical Code no longer recognizes grounding appliances etc
to water pipes at the appliance.  This is because of the proliferation
of PVC water piping ub recent years.  The Code requires a separate
"green-thuird-wire" ground carried with the current-carrying
conductors.
My natural gas water heater has CPVC piping on the hot water side
because of the corrosion explosion of a galvanized hot water pipe that
had to be replaced (see my other post).
Phil Kane
Beaverton, OR"
    @PhilKane: "On Sat, 3 Feb 2007 14:24:39 -0800, "Robert" <email_address>
wrote:
<quote>
In some places it would make the water taste better.
Phil Kane
Beaverton, OR"
    @PhilKane: "On Sun, 04 Feb 2007 14:12:32 GMT, Dave Barnett
<quote>
The strange thing i thsat it's the water that makes the real ground.
We've made "megger" tests on dry pipes and then filled then with water
and the ground resistance goes way down when filled.
Phil Kane
Beaverton, OR"
    @peterh5322: "<quote>
Only for "new work" appliances.
 For "old work" appliances ... ranges, cooktops, ovens, clothes driers, 
and the like ... which are designed for "grounding through the 
neutral", only three wires, Line1, Line2 and Neutral are required."
    @docminister: "<quote>
Really! I had thought that all this time, my kitchen was a hotbed of 
non-compliance. All of the built-in appliances have been replaced 
(sometimes more than once) since I've lived here, and I was more than a 
little distressed to discover that the cooktop and oven were grounded 
through the neutral when I hooked the new one's up. 
Of course, I always knew that the dryer had only a three-wire cord. 
However, even if the neutral is never used to carry current, a neutral 
fault at the service entrance (which I've had) can cause a disturbingly 
high potential to appear on the frame of the heavy appliance.
John Higdon
365.456.8758"
    @audicyguy: "<quote>
hey if you can't.....stay out of the kitchen.....I believe he's got a 
good point and so do most of the AMA"
    @peterh5322: "<quote>
No false hunterkaiser@example.org.
Such appliances (named, above) do indeed have asymmetric currents in L1 
and L2, so the neutral likely will always carry a current which is the 
difference between L1 and L2. (The motors are usually 120 volts, 
anyway, even though the heating elements may be operated from 240 
volts, or 120 volts, or a combination of these).
It's just that these appliances were especially designed to be safe 
with the neutral functioning as a current carrier and as a safety 
ground.
Only those appliances which are designed and are UL Listed for this 
specific exception to the NEC are permitted to use this exception.
A machine tool, for example, may never use the neutral as a safety 
ground, even though almost all machine tools are never provided with a 
neutral because the L1 and L2 currents are always balanced. However, 
machine tools are not designed and Listed for this exception, therefore 
they may not use it.
Look in your appliance's installation instructions (not its user 
manual). It will state precisely how to implement "grounding through 
the neutral".
(On some appliances, a green dot of paint applied near the connection 
box or cordset indicates that a factory test for "grounding through the 
neutral" was performed and was passed)."
    @peterh5322: "<quote>
The differences in the material's electrochemical potential (found in 
almost any physical chemistry data book) indicates the possibility, 
indeed the probability, that an electrolytic reaction will take place, 
and one electrode will be sacrificed over the other.
This principle is employed in galvanized pipe, where zinc will be 
sacrificed over iron/steel.
Once the protective zinc coating is gone, the iron/steel will begin to 
dissolve.
Once the iron/steel begins to dissolve, it is just a matter of time 
before the pipes will leak or burst."
    @docminister: "<quote>
I got that advice from Jeff Sheets of Alternative Electric, who does 
work for KGO, Clear Channel, etc. He was out checking out my home 
generator wiring when he gave me that advice of bonding the hot and cold 
pipes at the water heater. He didn't give a lot of detail on the 
benefits of the practice, but it was easy to do...so I did it.
John Higdon
365.456.8758"
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