@fpicabia: "There was discussion here a few months ago about there being no official da=
te
for end of life on Lenny. =A0This has changed. =A0I just noticed this item
on the security announcement mailing list:
<url>
No new Lenny updates after 6 February 2012.
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    @tonybaldwin: "<quote>
Ah...sadness...
Lenny was my first.
On the upside, Squeeze was released on my birthday last year (Feb. 6,
which is also the day of Lenny's demise...mixed feelings...).
./tony
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    @lisireisz: "<quote>
his
Lenny takes KDE 3.5.10 with it.  I am happy with Squeeze replacing Lenny -=
=20
execept that it has not got KDE3.  I mourn its passing. :-(
Lisi
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    @lisireisz: "<quote>
Horses for courses!
Lisi
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    @tonybaldwin: "<quote>
I use openbox, anyway.
I was a KDE user from about 2000 to about 2006 or 07ish, when KDE3
came out.  I didn't like it.
Now I really prefer light, efficient, simple.
./tony
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    @jsullivan: "<quote>
And then there is Trinity (<url> continuing KDE 3
development.  I am using it very successfully on Squeeze - John
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    @noelamac: "<quote>
Yes, unfortunately Debian team changed their mind at the middle of the 
proccess. This unforeseen change forces me to keep my lenny systems until 
wheezy is released which means having unpatched servers and workstations 
for months ;-(
Greetings,
Camaleón
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    @prettyflyproductions: "<quote>
Then you might like RazorQT Tony - it's very new, but it has the feature
s of OpenBox and KDE:-
<url>
Cheers
Iceweasel/Firefox extensions for finding answers to Debian questions:-
<url>
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    @noelamac: "El 2012-01-04 a las 13:42 -0500, Tony Baldwin escribió:
(resending to the list)
<quote>
Indeed, I do can, but I prefer to accomodate the span-life of the next 
installation round to match the longest support cycle possible with the 
less disturbances for me (admin) and my users :-)
Greetings,
Camaleón 
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    @ken: "-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
<quote>
Yes indeed, when the Trinity mirrors are working again and the most
irritating of the bugs in Trinity are fixed.  I only got one of my three
boxes working with Squeeze and Trinity before the mirrors went down, but
cannot use removable media in that box because of some of those bugs.
The other two boxes will not be upgraded to before next May.  Will
Wheezy be out by then?
Ken
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Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - <url>
iEYEARECAAYFAk8FzHAACgkQlNlJzOkJmTfmswCeN/4lO8vNBgsUDFAFqZcK1l+d
PHAAnj/BcCVFX05OprXlZ6Lihtijwdey
=jeA9
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    @hendrik: "<quote>
I can't give up on Lenny entirely, because my scanner doesn't work with 
later kernels.
 hendrik
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    @tomh0665: "On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 5:36 AM, Andrei Popescu <email_address> w=
rote:
<quote>
l
+1; woody, etch, and sarge followed the same schedule.
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    @noelamac: "<quote>
Sure (this was also discussed in this same list, time ago...). The 
possibility of jumping from Lenny to Wheezy was oficially mentioned here:
Debian decides to adopt time-based release freezes
<url>
And this announcement was not corrected nor modified afterwards (unless I 
missed something), so I managed the installation on my Lenny systems 
having in mind such statement which it finally turned out to be not 
possible :-)
You mean this doc:
***
<url>
Q: How long will security updates be provided?
A: The security team tries to support a stable distribution for about one 
year after the next stable distribution has been released, except when 
another stable distribution is released within this year. It is not 
possible to support three distributions; supporting two simultaneously is 
already difficult enough. 
***
Yes, I was also aware of that document at the time I decided to migrate 
from openSUSE to Debian. But -in the meantime- it came out the 
possibility of having release freeze periods and the above mentioned 
announcement lead me to think, in order to accomodate to the new release 
plan, as a exceptional measure, lenny users could jump to wheezy.
However, it is still unclear to me if we have now adopted such stable 
release freeze cycle, because wheezy is expected to be freeze on June 
2012 and not December 2012 (nor it was on December 2011) :-?
Greetings,
Camaleón
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    @prettyflyproductions: "<quote>
<snipped>
See:-
<url>
Cheers
Iceweasel/Firefox extensions for finding answers to Debian questions:-
<url>
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    @noelamac: "<quote>
(...)
You can delay it but you'll have to solve that issue sooner or later... 
anyway, have you filled a bug for that?
Greetings,
Camaleón
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    @noelamac: "<quote>
Yup, I did read it, but it does not say a word about the possibility of a 
direct jump (lenny → wheezy) nor if the first decission was going to be 
retired.
I think this kind of announcements and changes on project directions are 
important enough to get them properly addressed and communicated to the 
community.
Greetings,
Camaleón
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    @stevenhrosenberg: "<quote>
 to be
The official upgrade process for Lenny to Squeeze was not as easy as a
simple dist-upgrade, and I wonder if Lenny-to-Wheezy would be too
difficult to work out. I can't imagine that those with Lenny aren't
encouraged to go Lenny-Squeeze-Wheezy.
Truth be told, I'd just do a reinstall of Wheezy when the time comes.
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    @lisireisz: "<quote>
That's generally a good idea anyway!  (IMHO, of ciourse.)
Lisi
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    @tonybaldwin: "<quote>
disturbances?
Have you upgraded a Debian from old->new stable before?
You should just upgrade to Squeeze.
Lenny was my first Debian (had tried to install woody years ago, 
but the installer never got my X working, on various hardware...weird...
so I stuck with RH/Fedora from RH7.0 up to FC4, then played with
ubuntu, pclinuxos, and a few others. RH/FC, Ubuntu, PC, etc., 
all frequently broke stuff on updtes/upgrades).
So, the lenny->squeeze upgrade was my first Debian upgrade.
EASIEST UPGRADE EVER!
Seriously.
Not only was I thrilled that Squeeze was released on my birthday,
but I spent about 1 hour doing the upgrade, and was back in business as
if nothing had changed (except, well, stuff was even better).
No disturbances.
I'm not lying.
While I have tried numerous distributions in the past, 
after such a completely seemless and ridiculously easy upgrade, 
especially, and the rock solid/nothing ever breaks stability of Debian
STable, I just can't imagine myself ever wanting to change to another
distribution again. Ever.
So easy to upgrade.
./tony
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    @tonybaldwin: "<quote>
It really amazes me to see anybody say(write) this.
Having used several distributions (as mentioned), 
I found the Lenny->Squeeze (my first Debian upgrade) to be amazingly
easy. Like falling off a log.
./tony
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    @joe: "On Fri, 6 Jan 2012 19:45:25 -0500
<quote>
Come back and tell us when you've done a dozen servers. Everything in
life is easy and works first time..... except when it doesn't.
Take a brand new clean and basic Debian installation, do an upgrade and
it really should Just Work every time. Take a server which was
originally, say, sarge, and upgrade it, and you roll the dice. It has
had so many configuration changes made, so many extra scripts added, a
few outright bodges, and you really can't be confident that everything
will come through OK. A server upgrade is traumatic, and to be avoided
where possible. The only thing worse is a clean installation, which you
then have to spend a few days fiddling with to get everything working
the way you want.
I'm down to looking after my own server and one for a client, and my
own lenny-to-squeeze upgrade went easily. But I had spent some time
studying the upgrade notes, and I could see significant work there if I
was doing certain things differently. As it was, I was worried about the
FreeRADIUS server, which I had compiled myself, an experience I had no
wish to repeat. The squeeze FreeRADIUS now had SSL support built-in, so
would my hand-compiled version upgrade smoothly? It did, but there was
no way to predict that, and there were still minor quibbles about
switching to a dpkg-registered package from an independent one.
Generally an upgrade *will* break a few things, usually when software
is withdrawn from Debian, though sometimes when there is a major
software version change. My previous upgrade from etch to lenny broke my
mail server, and it took me a few hours and some determined use of dpkg
to get it running again. The problem wasn't the software itself, but
the heavily-modified configuration file, which left aptitude stuck
with a partly-installed package which could neither go further nor be
removed.
I have no argument about Debian having a relatively smooth and
well-researched upgrade path. The upgrade can also normally be done with
only one reboot (possibly more after certain preparations, if they were
necessary) with minimal disturbance to users. That's why so many
Internet servers use it. Most recent Windows versions cannot be
upgraded at all, Microsoft being reduced to producing scripts to ease
the migration of users and data to a completely different machine.
While I have dabbled with other Linux distributions in the past, it has
always been easier to clean install a newer version and just copy data.
It's only when a few years' worth of customisation is added that an easy
upgrade becomes really important.
Joe
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    @noelamac: "<quote>
(...)
When I said "a direct jump" I was thinking on security patches support 
lifecycle, that is, in having lenny patches delivered until wheezy is 
released, not in running a direct upgrade. In fact I never do "in place" 
upgrades (which overwrites the last running system), I always install a 
new linux release in pararel, on a separate partition. With todays hard 
disks capacities space is not a constraint.
Greetings,
Camaleón
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    @noelamac: "<quote>
(...)
(...)
Nope, never ever. In Spanish I would say "jamás de los jamases" :-)
In do run in place upgrades on my testing computers that now runs on a 
perpetual Debian "testing" but on production systems I would never do a 
distribution upgrade and not because is not going to work (I know Debian 
has one of the best in site upgrades available in linux with the plus of 
release notes which help a lot to minimize the risks) but I'm a very 
conservative sysadmin and one of my mottos is "always keep a running 
system" so overwriting something that is working is something that the 
mere thought gives me gooseflesh.
Of course, I can do this way because I don't have thousand machines to 
administer not have to remotely access to them, in such case I would 
reconsider the in place upgrade path :-)
Greetings,
Camaleón
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    @fpicabia: "<quote>
We run about 5 servers with Debian which have been upgraded
in place, from Lenny to Squeeze.  A couple started life as Debian
3.0 and have been upgraded a version a few times.  The services
offered from these servers varies.  One is an INN news server.
One is our DHCP/DNS server for a network with up to 5000
nodes on it.  Another 3 servers provide web sites and programming
platforms.
We upgrade in place because it works, and because we can't
afford to buy a new server for every OS life cycle.
The issues with services breaking can be mitigated by testing
on a VM instance with your usual configuration in advance.
For example, I tested our DHCP config and DNS config on
a VM system with squeeze versions of bind and ISC DHCP.
We did have a couple of little surprises, like the path to the dhcp
leases changing (impacts NetReg and dhcpstatus script).
The other part we can take advantage of is to do the upgrade work between
busy cycles, and for us that means when students are away.
The downtime for my last upgrade, of the DNS/DHCP was about 30
minutes, mainly due to the requirement of fiddling around with
kernel needs (the rootdelay=3D9 issue I mention in another thread).
The other thing I try to do, keeping in mind Camale=F3n's mentioning
of conservative practises, is to have a fall back plan for anything
important.  Websites can be migrated to another system temporarily
during an upgrade.  I can set up secondary DNS and have another
system ready to start with a copy of our DHCP config.  In the case
of a service like INN, no one would notice if it is down
for awhile, and people can live without it for some time if needed.
I feel my practises are also conservative, but in the direction of
keeping prepared for a zero day exploit.  I know Debian is quick
to patch security problems, but I can't be ready to do so with
an unsupported version of Debian.  Patching the problem
may also be possible outside of the Debian packages, but
if I need to act quickly on several systems and it is time
consuming to determine what chain of dependencies may
need updates, I'd prefer to avoid downtime caused by flawed
emergency patching methods.
Upgrading to a new system is ideal, and for some complex systems
using software developed in house and third party, it is the only way
to go ahead.  However, we can't always afford to buy new systems for
each OS life cycle.   Especially for purely open source
based services where the upgrade path is common to the
open source user community and for which google hints abound,
an upgrade in place is a good fit.
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    @noelamac: "<quote>
(...)
(...)
Nice to know the upgrade path (instead a full pararel install) does the 
work for you. I understand every sysadmin has developed his/her own 
maintenance techniques and sticks to those that have been working for his/
her setups over the years.
I personally don't like using VM for this purpose because they don't 
provide reliable results (what usually fails when upgrading from a older 
version to another are hardware related problems more than problematic 
services). In the end, software issues are usually easier to solve than  
hardware compatibility problems (like buggy drivers).
I also try to reduce the downtime for the installation of a new release 
by performing the migration on holidays or over the weekends when users 
are not at the office.
That would be great but I don't have secondary machines for balancing all 
of the services (I wish I had!) so this is not always possible :-)
(...)
Yup, running an unsupported (unpattched) system is a high risk, even more 
if it is providing external services (web hosting, e-mail...) :-(
Greetings,
Camaleón
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