@buckeyeelo: "ACLU Monitoring School Bible Handouts
<url>
[excerpt]
Posted By loboinok On 18th April 2007 @ 23:04
by Susie Hassan
Monday, April 16, 2007
ABC7 News Online
COLLIER COUNTY:
A Collier County man who hands out bibles to Collier County high
school students is under fire by the American Civil Liberties Union.
Officials with the ACLU spent Monday night talking to Collier County
democrats about the issue.
People on one side of the argument say it's not a separation of
church and state issue while the other side says it is in fact a
perfect example and neither side is backing down.
The debate begins with bibles handed out by Jerry Rutherford to
Collier County high school students. He says there's no harm in what
he's doing.
"This is not a church and state issue. It's a free speech issue,"
said Rutherford.
But the ACLU says the separation of church and state is exactly
the issue.
"There is a time to speak you religious beliefs and that is in
your church. *But the public education is not the forum for bible
distribution," said ACLU Attorney Yale Freeman.
Typical ACLU position in their ongoing attempt to remove Christianity
from the public sphere, and contain it to a more localized, segregated
place in society.
Yeah, I've heard all the lefts' defense of the ACLU, saying that the
ACLU has defended Christians in the past. Small cases that didn't
amount to much of anything other than PR and to give the appearance of
equal treatment. If Labor Unions represented their members in the same
manner, members and liberals would be going ballistic.
Thomas More Law Center To Argue For Reversal of Decision Permitting
Public Schools to Teach Students to "Become Muslims"� where was the ACLU?
Public Minnesota College to Install Foot-Washing Basins for Muslim
Students�where is the ACLU?
Seattle Airport Removes Christmas Trees Instead of Putting Up
Menorah�ACLU?
Muslims Seek Prayer Room at Airport�ACLU?
Rumsfeld supports Scouts meeting on military bases� "The ACLU contends
the government sponsorship violates religious freedoms since the Boy
Scouts require members to pledge allegiance to God."
JONES INTRODUCES BILL TO PROTECT PRAYER IN
OUR MILITARY ACADEMIES� "In May 2001, the Virginia Chapter of the
American Civil Liberty
Union sued the Virginia Military Institute on behalf of two former
cadets who opposed the non-
denominational pre-supper prayer."
[end excerpt]
*************************************************************** 
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
<url>
American Theocrats - Past and Present
<url>
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
<url>
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS � Historical Reality SepChurch&State
<url>
***************************************************************
. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning.  Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic."  New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992) 
. . . 
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote 
"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"
That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.
It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.
***************************************************************** 
       THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE: 
    SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE 
<url>
****************************************************************"
    @btr1702: "<quote>
Wow. So according to the ACLU, if you want to speak about religious 
matters, the only place you are free to do it is inside a church?
I wonder if blacks are only free to speak about racial matters inside 
the offices of Jesse Jackson's Rainbow organization?
If this guy handing out bibles to kids is not a school employee just 
an average citizen and he's not on school property while he's doing 
it, then it very much is a matter of his right to free speech. Handing 
out bibles is no different than handing out pamphlets promoting safe sex 
or racial justice or illegal immigration and any ordinance or regulation 
that tries to stop it is an unconstitutional content-based violation of 
the 1st Amendment."
    @BlazingLaser: "I checked into this.  
First of all, there is no Collier county in Missouri.  So I don't know
which case this refers to.  It would have helped if they'd given place
names so a person could cross-reference the case on the ACLU site.
(Not that any of you good, fair, right-wing Christians would be
interested in hearing both sides of the story!  God forbid!)
On the ACLU site there is a story about a school district in Kansas
City, MO, agreeing to stop distributing Bibles to students.  The
school district claimed that it was a private citizens handing out the
Bibles, but he was doing it on school property.  The school agreed not
to let anyone distribute Bibles who wasn't a student of the school.  I
think that's very reasonable.
On the ACLU site there was another case in Alexandria, LA, where an
11-year-old Muslim girl was harassed after she refused to accept a
Bible from her teacher, and then was forced to play a quiz game about
Jesus.  The ACLU got a court order to stop the school from
distributing Bibles."
    @btr1702: "<quote>
Then he could have just said that instead of adding the comment that the 
only place for speaking religious beliefs is in a church. That extra 
qualification is a very telling indicator of exactly how the ACLU feels 
about religious speech.
Well, all you have to do is Google my posting history here (in 
alt.atheism) and you'll find the exact opposite: I'm a very vocal 
atheist.
But please, by all means, don't let the actual facts get in the way of a 
good round of name-calling. Don't feel bad, though. You aren't the first 
person (and you undoubtedly won't be the last) who ends up looking 
foolish for assuming that if I'm not in favor of stamping out religion 
in all its forms, then I must be a fundamentalist Christ-bot.
Whoosh...
If it's on school property, then they don't even have to address the 
bible/religious issue. They can just have him removed for trespassing NO 
MATTER WHAT HE'S HANDING OUT.
The fact that the ACLU and school authorities haven't done so is a good 
indicator that he's probably doing something like standing on a public 
sidewalk right over the property line and handing out the bibles to the 
kids as they head in to school in the morning or leave in the afternoon. 
And if that's the case, his actions are protected by the 1st Amendment 
and too bad if the ACLU and the school administration don't like it."
    @btr1702: " bushhelpscorporationsdestroyamerica <email_address> 
<quote>
I wasn't aware that the 1st Amendment came with a "only true stories are 
protected" clause.
The entire fiction section of your local Barnes & Nobles is full of 
"fake stories". Doesn't mean the government has the power to ban them."
    @lojbab: "<quote>
Both of these news stories:
<url>
<url>
say that he was on campus, and that he was handing out the materials
during lunch and talking to students and teachers, which strongly
implies that he was in or near the lunchroom.
The Board has gone back and forth from allowing the distribution to
forbidding it, with everything currently in limbo now awaiting
relevant decisions in ongoing appeals court cases.
lojbab"
    @btr1702: "<quote>
And yet...
I'm defending him because it *is* a free speech issue. The fact that I'm 
am atheist does not mean I'm in favor of limiting the rights of others 
to say whatever they want on whatever topic they want, be it religious 
or otherwise. Because the day the government has the right to silence 
someone because of their religion is the day they can silence me because 
of my lack of religion.
More's the pity.
Ya think?"
    @btr1702: "<quote>
And if that's the case, there's a simple solution: prohibit non-students 
and non-faculty from being on cherylmiller@example.com. Unless there's a 
school-related purpose for an adult to be there, they can't be at the 
school. That's a pretty standard policy for most schools. Not sure why 
it's such a problem for this one."
    @btr1702: "<quote>
Neither do you. Hasn't stopped you from trumpeting your own opinions as 
if they are immutable fact.
Yes, I know. The club rules require me to hate religion in every form 
and attack it whenever and wherever I can. I've been chastised by the 
popular kids many times that I have an attitude problem.
Glad we agree."
    @me: "<quote>
Fuk those goddam communist Jews that run the ACLU.
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    @lojbab: "<quote>
I think that is why it is a court issue - the Board apparently
explicitly approved his activity.
lojbab"
    @btr1702: "<quote>
Sure you have. You've asserted as a matter of fact that this is not a 
free speech case. Until a court rules, that's just an opinion, not a 
fact.
And now the ad hominems start. Right on schedule."
    @btr1702: "<quote>
You can insist that I read into it all you want but obviously it's a 
self-limiting statement."
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