@grumpyoldhori: " Noticed a statement by a Israeli pilot that the deliberate
 bombing of civilians was not a war crime because they were 
 following orders.
 We have heard that before.
 It seems that double standards apply,kill a mixed group of 
 Hezbollah and civilians including children,that is fine by
 Israeli standards.
 Kill some mixed Israeli soldiers and civilians,that is terror.
 Those pilots best stay away from Europe,or they could find
 themselves in the Hague on charges.
 Bloody Hezbollah and the IDF are the same,would rather attack
 civilians than each other.
grumpy"
    @grumpyoldhori: "<quote>
  Here you are,oh,and do not forget any country that has signed the
  Geneva convention has a duty to arrest war criminals.
  Oh,except for the USA, seems they are pulling out of a lot of
  the Geneva convention.
           <url>
grumpy"
    @rewarewa: "<quote>
Human Rights Watch. Internationally attacked for being 
anti-Semitic and obsessing about Israel.
JC"
    @grumpyoldhori: "<quote>
  They were not following order to bomb civilian areas?.
  They did not know that bombing civilian areas would cause 
  civilian deaths?.
  That would amuse the court in the Hague.
grumpy"
    @grumpyoldhori: "<quote>
  Strange,five year old children are Hezbollah,and their deaths a
  laugh.
  Still not surprising,an Israeli minister stated any civilians
  in Southern Lebanon were terroists.
  Which obviously included children.
grumpy"
    @grumpyoldhori: "<quote>
  Here you are.
   <url>
  And one of their commanders said this.
   One senior commander who has been involved in the air attacks in Lebanon
has already raised concerns that some of the air force's actions might be
considered "war crimes."
grumpy"
    @grumpyoldhori: "<quote>
 Here is another one,no Israeli pilots will be traveling to any
 country with a Westminster court system too soon.
grumpy
Former Gaza General Eludes UK War Crimes Charge
by Jon Elmer
British agents allowed to slip through their fingers the man who oversaw the
destruction of Palestinian homes and ordered a bombing that killed 14
noncombatants in 2003.
Sept. 13, 2005 – The former head of Israeli forces in the Gaza Strip evaded
arrest by Scotland Yard agents in Britain on a war crimes charge when he
refused to disembark a flight from Israel at London's Heathrow airport on
Sunday.
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Agents were waiting with an arrest warrant in hand for retired Major General
Doron Almog, who served as head of the IDF Southern Command from December
2000 to July 2003, but Israeli agents had reportedly warned Almog of the
impending arrest.
The warrant was issued Saturday at a London courthouse for an alleged breach
of the Fourth Geneva Convention, a statute regarding the treatment of
civilians in occupied territory.
Israel signed the Geneva Conventions in December 1949 and ratified them in
1951; however, it has consistently held that the Conventions do not apply
to the West Bank and Gaza Strip, lands which Israel occupied in 1967,
because they were captured in a "defensive war."
Though Almog's alleged crime – the wanton destruction of 59 civilian homes
in the Rafah refugee camp in January 2002 – took place in the Gaza Strip,
UK law authorizes universal jurisdiction for war crimes under the 1957
Geneva Conventions Act.
The January 2002 demolitions followed the killing of four Israeli soldiers
in southern Gaza the previous day; however, the army denies that the
demolitions were ordered as revenge or collective punishment, claiming that
they had been prepared weeks in advance for security purposes, according to
a report by Human Rights Watch.
Further evidence presented to the London judge against Almog included
responsibility for the killing of a pregnant woman, Noha Shukri Al-Makadma,
in March 2003, and the dropping of a one-ton bomb in a densely populated
Gaza City neighbourhood which killed 15 and wounded 150 Palestinians.
The bomb was used to assassinate Hamas military commander, Salah Shehadeh;
he was killed along with his wife and teenage daughter, as well as 12 other
Palestinians, eight of them children.
Almog is not the only Israeli implicated in that bombing incident. Yesh
Gvul, a broad movement of Israeli soldiers who refuse to serve in the
occupied territories, is involved in another complaint filed in the UK
against then-Air Force commander Dan Halutz for his role in the bombing,
according to a report by the Israeli daily Ha'aretz. Halutz has since been
promoted to IDF Chief of Staff.
Former Chief of Staff Moshe Ya'alon has also been advised to avoid the UK,
as courts will likely issue arrest warrants similar to that of Almog's,
Israeli papers report.
In response to criticism over the Shehadeh bombing, Halutz infamously
responded that he "slept well at night" and told his soldiers that they
should as well. The bombing, Halutz told Ha'aretz Magazine, passed his
"moral test."
Some under Halutz's command disagreed.
"The Shehadeh incident was a red light for us, a final warning," said Capt.
Alon R. "With Shehadeh, I began to re-evaluate my beliefs. We killed
fourteen innocent people, nine of them children. After, my commander gave
an interview in which he said he sleeps well at night and his men can do
the same. Well, I can't. We refused to see it as an innocent mistake."
Yesh Gvul said that they were forced to take the case abroad due to the lack
of movement within the Israeli legal system, which – two years after the
bombing – has yet to order a criminal investigation into Halutz's
responsibility in the bombing more than two years after Yesh Gvul filed
complaint.
"We have lost faith in the [Israeli] Supreme Court, and in its ability to
deliberate matters related to the IDF's activities as an occupying power,"
Yesh Gvul's Yishai Menuhin told Ha'aretz newspaper. "We are approaching
instances abroad only after we have tried everything possible in Israel."
In Almog's case, the London judge ruled that a police interrogation was
necessary before the Shehadeh bombing and the killing of Al-Makadma, who
was nine months pregnant, could be included in the charges, according to a
statement by Hickman and Rose, the British law firm that initiated the
claim.
Instead, the focus of the Almog warrant is a violation of Article 147 of the
Fourth Geneva Convention, which stipulates that "extensive destruction and
appropriation of property, not justified by military necessity and carried
out unlawfully and wantonly," is a "grave breach" of international law.
According to Amnesty International, more than 4,000 Palestinian homes have
been demolished since September 2000, more than half of them in the Gaza
Strip.
A statement issued by the law firm Hickman and Rose read in part, "The
pursuit of war criminals and the prosecution of those responsible for war
crimes is a long-term strategy designed to combat the culture of impunity
which is endemic inside the Israeli military, judicial and political
system."
Such threats have the Israeli political establishment on alert. Irit Kahn, a
former head of the International Affairs Department of Israel's Justice
Ministry, told the Jerusalem Post: "If an IDF officer goes to England today
then there is a chance they will get arrested. I would recommend that
Israel begin talking to England and that high-ranking soldier's refrain
from traveling to England."
Almog avoided arrest after being warned not to exit the El Al airlines
hughesrobert@example.net. He told Israel's Army Radio: "We were about to get off
the plane, then one of the stewards came up to me and said the pilot asked
that I disembark last. After some time, the chief steward said that the
Israeli military attaché was on his way and wanted to speak to me. I phoned
him and he told me not to get off the plane."
The Israeli Hebrew daily, Maariv, reported that the British authorities
tipped off the Israeli ambassador to the UK. Israel's foreign minister Mark
Regev confirmed that his office received at least "partial" information on
the impending arrest, according to a Reuters report.
Amnesty International acknowledged that the source of the leak is unclear,
but in any case "deplored" the failure of UK officials to board the plane
and arrest Almog.
"The refusal to arrest a person suspected of war crimes is a clear violation
both of the UK's unconditional obligations under the Fourth Geneva
Convention and under national law," said Amnesty International, calling for
an investigation into British agents' failure to execute the arrest
warrant.
"It is difficult to believe that the police would have refused to arrest a
person who had arrived in the UK on board an airliner if that person was
wanted for drug-trafficking or security offences, simply because they had
not passed through UK border controls, if that meant they would otherwise
evade arrest," the human rights group added.
Meanwhile, Almog's successor as the Israeli army head in Gaza, Major General
Dan Harel, has signed a proclamation bringing to a close 38 years of
Israeli military rule in the Gaza Strip. The declaration, signed Monday
night after the last Israeli troops exited the coastal strip, revoked
Israel's assumption of power attained in June 1967. The decree handed
responsibility for Palestinian affairs in Gaza to the Palestinian National
Authority; however, the Israeli Foreign Ministry will not declare "the end
of the occupation" of Gaza because Israel will remain in control of the
territorial waters, airspace and border crossings.
© 2005 The NewStandard. All rights reserved. The NewStandard is a non-profit
publisher that encourages noncommercial reproduction of its content.
Reprints must prominently attribute the author and The NewStandard,
hyperlink to <url> (online) or display
newstandardnews.net (print), and carry this notice. For more information or
commercial reprint rights, please see the TNS reprint policy. "
    @grumpyoldhori: "<quote>
Further evidence presented to the London judge against Almog included
responsibility for the killing of a pregnant woman, Noha Shukri Al-Makadma,
in March 2003, and the dropping of a one-ton bomb in a densely populated
Gaza City neighbourhood which killed 15 and wounded 150 Palestinians.
The bomb was used to assassinate Hamas military commander, Salah Shehadeh;
he was killed along with his wife and teenage daughter, as well as 12 other
Palestinians, eight of them children.
Almog is not the only Israeli implicated in
 Not Lebanon,but hey whats a few Arab children.
 The IDF do not target civilians?.
                  grumpy"
    @john_holley: "<quote>
I'm sorry but that was hardly an accident! If they wanted to target
someone launching rockets you use airburst bombs. You don't use bombs
designed to penetrate concrete shelters that you know have been there
for decades. The is a real problem in proportionality here. In
targetting, and interestingly the IDF has not sure any evidence of
rocket launchers by the post e.g. video or recon pics, was it a
proportional response? Is risking the lives of protected persons
allowable to take out one or two people firing rockets from the back of
a truck who "shoot and scoot"?
The principle of proportionality establishes a link between the
concepts of military necessity and  humanity. This principle implies
that collateral civilian damage arising from military operations must
not be  excessive in relation to the direct and concrete military
advantage anticipated from such operations.  In deciding whether the
principle of proportionality is being respected, the standard of
measurement  is the anticipated contribution to the military purpose of
an attack or operation considered as a whole. The anticipated military
advantage must be balanced against other consequences of the action,
such as the  adverse effect upon civilians or civilian objects. It
involves weighing the interests arising from the success of  the
operation on the one hand, against the possible harmful effects upon
protected persons and objects on the other."
    @sue_bilstein: "On Wed, 16 Aug 2006 18:40:16 +1200, grumpyoldhori
<quote>
Right, so grumpy has no proof of his claim that the Israelis
deliberately bombed civilians in Lebanon.  What a surprise.
And who was Salah Shehadeh?
-
<url>
Shehadeh, 40, was the leader of Hamas� military wing, Iz Adin
al-Kassam, which he helped to found in December 1987. He was a close
personal aide to Hamas� spiritual leader, Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, and was
regarded as a possible heir to Yassin. According to the Shin Bet,
Israel�s secret services, Shehadeh was one of the most extreme members
of Hamas, perhaps more extreme than Sheikh Yassin, whose leadership he
had challenged on several occasions.
Beyond his leadership role in forging Hamas into Israel�s fiercest
enemy in the Palestinian territories, Shehadeh was, according to
Israel, directly responsible for dozens of attacks against both
Israeli military personnel and civilians.1
Israeli Defense Minister Benjamin Ben-Eliezer told the Israeli
newspaper Ha�aretz that Shehadeh "was the biggest murderer, the man
who caused Israel the most damage, nobody was bigger, stronger, more
ruthless. Hundreds were killed or wounded because of him." Ben-Eliezer
added that at the time of Shehadeh�s death, the Hamas leader had been
in the process of planning an unprecedented, "mega-terror" attack
against Israel. 
... 
In this situation, Israel placed a great deal of weight on the
military advantage to be gained by neutralizing Shehadeh�s capacity to
harm Israeli civilians. Israeli officials claim that he was in the
process of planning a series of "mega-terror" attacks of an
unprecedented nature in terms of the damage they would inflict on
Israeli citizens, and thus, the only way to prevent the deaths of
Israeli civilians was to eliminate the threat posed by Shehadeh, at
all costs.
According to official statements, Israel had been targeting Shehadeh
for six months and his assassination had been postponed eight times
previously to avoid harming innocent civilians around him. The last
such postponement came days before the final strike, when Israeli
intelligence had a positive identification that Shehadeh�s daughter
was in his company at the time intended for the attack.
In the eyes of the Israeli leaders, postponement of the mission or
failure to incapacitate Shehadeh would have had disastrous
consequences.
-
This article is interesting in that it contains a great deal of
legalistic argument as to whether Israel was guilty of a war crime in
this attack.  But read it, and ask yourself whether anyone asks
whether Shehadeh was a war criminal.  Does anyone imagine what it's
like for the Israelis, to be constantly under terror attack from
people like him?"
    @grumpyoldhori: "<quote>
  No problem with him being a target,but it is damn hard for Israel
  to say,we are in the moral right,when they targeted him and young
  children.
  No option you might say,yes there was,helicopter assault by 
  infantry,yes there would have been Israeli military casualties.
  You will notice Israel states the Geneva agreement does not
  apply to residents of captured land.
  Which is fine in Israel and the USA,but any officer involved
  in what is seen as war crimes can be arrested outside of Israel
  or the USA.
  Which is why we had a Israeli general running home.
  British courts not to be trusted?.
grumpy"
    @sue_bilstein: "<quote>
The Israelis made war on Hezbollah in Lebanon for four weeks.  Around
1000 people were killed in Lebanon, of which an unknown number were
Hezbollah.  (Of course the biased media announced all casualties as
"civilians".  
That figure is proof that the Israelis did not target civilians.  If
they had done so, hundreds of thousands would have been killed."
    @sue_bilstein: "On Wed, 16 Aug 2006 21:39:03 +1200, John Holley
<quote>
Intent and intel have a lot to do with whether it was a war crime, or
collateral damage.
Where did all those tens of thousands of rockets come from, that
Hezbollah fired into Israel in the last four weeks?  How come
Hezbollah had such an enormous stockpile of rockets?
I wonder what Hezbollah were planning to do with those rockets, if the
war had not come to pass."
    @grumpyoldhori: "<quote>
  Peachpickers,targeted and killed.they were right on target with
  their bombs.
  Or are you saying that the Israeli pilots are so poor they do not
  know what they are doing.
grumpy"
    @sue_bilstein: "On Wed, 16 Aug 2006 22:17:36 +1200, grumpyoldhori
<quote>
Already covered on this thread; have a look at my posts, below."
    @grumpyoldhori: "<quote>
  Wrong sunshine,they knew his family were with him,and released
  the bombs.
  Since you live in a country that follows the British justice
  system,why did that Israeli general run home instead of facing
  up,if he had done no wrong.
  Cannot get justice in a British court.?.
  Why suspend the Geneva convention for that area?.
  So it would be legal for Hamas to hit a bus full of  Israel children
  if there was one soldier on board,working on your logic.
grumpy"
    @sue_bilstein: "On Wed, 16 Aug 2006 22:27:18 +1200, grumpyoldhori
<quote>
Did you read the article I posted, grumpy?  The bombing of the
military leader of Hamas was in fact nothing like bombing a bus full
of children to kill one solder.  And of course, Hamas and Hezbollah
bomb children and civilians often, deliberately, aiming purely to
inspire terror.
Sometimes you make me wish that NZ found itself in the same position
as Israel, under constant terrorist attack for a hundred years or so -
just so you, personally,  could start to get a clue.
But then I remember that this is Hobbiton."
    @grumpyoldhori: "<quote>
  A rather broad assumption,also used by the Nazis and Japanese,
  came under the same heading as only obeying orders.
  Guess none of the officers involved will  leaving Israel
  for a holiday in any country that obeys the Geneva convention,
  unless they would like time in The Hague.
grumpy"
    @grumpyoldhori: "<quote>
  Heh,heh,you did not read about that Israeli general
  Tom,he was about to be arrested in London for war
  crimes,stayed on the aircraft and ran home.
  Israel,has stated that the Geneva convention does not
  apply in captured territory,others do not see it that way.
  Israel military officers,well they are complaining that the
  only places they are safe from arrest if they have taken part
  in war crimes,is Israel or the USA.
grumpy"
    @grumpyoldhori: "<quote>
  I had one,that Israeli general stating that the UK should change
  its laws to suit Israel,loved the arrogance.
grumpy"
    @sue_bilstein: "On 17 Aug 2006 05:34:09 -0700, "Tom Enright" <email_address>
wrote:
<quote>
Good luck, Tom.  I'll be away for a couple of days; I don't expect to
see any convincing cites from grumpy by the time I come back."
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