@leavemealone: "... the Avs, I think.  They have one undisclosed salary and are within 450k 
of being over, so assuming the salary is 450k, they're over.  Hmm.
E. "
    @binb: ""edl" <email_address> wrote in message 
news:<email_address>
<quote>
That is, of course, with 28 players signed.  Since the loss of Foppa, the 
Avs are employing a "quantity over quality" strategy.  They also still need 
to sign Liles and Hahl, but since their final roster will only include 23 
players, they should be fine cap wise.  And I think more maneuvering must be 
in the works.  Maybe Turgeon, May and Brisebois to the Wings for Datsyuk? "
    @wharry: "<quote>
Nope. That salary is for 28 players signed. Only 25 can be on the 
roster, so at least three of them will be in the AHL and their salaries 
won't count towards the cap.
I would imagine that Healey, Clark, McCormick, Finger, and Lawson, as 
well as either Budaj or Kolesnik will not count toward that salary 
number. I can't see any of them other than either Budaj or Kolesnik 
making the NHL with the depth that Colorado has.
BTW, Liles signed his $450 QO today, so his salary is now disclosed. And 
Kolesnik didn't get anything more than that. That would put them at 
39,631,628 before factoring in the three that cannot be on the NHL 
roster, which will put them back down below the cap.
-Thomas"
    @leavemealone: ""Thomas" <email_address> wrote in message 
news:<email_address>
<quote>
If that's the case (and it may be), wouldn't any prudent NHL GM sign players 
to two-way deals and hide them down in the AHL to dodge cap considerations 
near the end of seasons?
E. "
    @zbeg: "->> Nope. That salary is for 28 players signed. Only 25 can be on the roster,
->> so at least three of them will be in the AHL and their salaries won't
->> count towards the cap.
->
->If that's the case (and it may be), wouldn't any prudent NHL GM sign players
->to two-way deals and hide them down in the AHL to dodge cap considerations
->near the end of seasons?
I'm assuming that the new CBA is the same in that veteran-type players
would need to clear waivers before being sent down, so the ability to
stash players in the AHL at will would be limited.
Unless I'm reading your scenario wrong and you have something else in
mind.
      M. Zaiem Beg   <email_address>"
    @wharry: "<quote>
Uh, because most established NHL players don't want to sign two way deals.
And it's another reason why your "the draft matters even less now" 
argument doesn't hold water - young players *do* have two way contracts 
and *can* be sent to the AHL, while your overpaid 35 year old scrubs 
like Maltby cannot be sent to the AHL without clearing waivers.
-Thomas"
    @wharry: "<quote>
True. He wouldn't. But the Wings would be on the hook for his entire 
salary, both real and cap number, even when Maltby was in the AHL.
-Thomas"
    @leavemealone: ""Thomas" <email_address> wrote in message 
news:<email_address>
<quote>
Aw<url>
Wow, your keys must really be sticking.  I've never seen anyone try and type 
'Turgeon' and have it come out 'Maltby' before.  Usually it's just a letter 
or two transposed or something like that.  Definitely time to break out the 
windex, no?
E."
    @wharry: "<quote>
Turgeon is overpaid now?
Lappy, I could understand. Boughner? OK. Laaksonen? Alright.
But Turgeon? As I said before, he's a 50pt scorer who makes $1.5m a 
year. Even if he doesn't improve his scoring while moving from a 4th 
line on a bad team to the 2nd line on a good team, for $1.5m, I don't 
know how you could make the argument that he's overpaid.
Hell, he makes what the Wings paid McCarty this year NOT TO PLAY FOR THEM.
-Thomas"
    @leavemealone: ""Thomas" <email_address> wrote in message 
news:<email_address>
<quote>
Well, if 'first liners' from other teams only make 800k... why would a 
'fourth-liner' like Turgeon make almost twice as much?
Best money spent by the Wings this year, if you ask me.
E. "
    @wharry: "<quote>
Turgeon isn't a 4th liner in Colorado. He's going to score his 500th 
goal this season and might end up going into the HOF as an Av, which 
would be worth whatever they pay.
Is it?
-Thomas"
    @leavemealone: ""Thomas" <email_address> wrote in message 
news:<email_address>
<quote>
Hmm.  I wonder if scoring his 500th goal with the Wings made Robitaille 
worth what his contract was?
Really?  So if Turgeon plays two seasons as an Av and goes into the HOF as 
an Av, that's worth any amount of money?
I'm exaggerating (slightly) of course, but I've wanted McCarty out of town 
for a couple years now.
E. "
    @wharry: "<quote>
Apples and oranges. Robitaille was signed for several million a year and 
then played as a 3rd liner a lot of the time because he couldn't hack 
it. Scoring your 500th goal in a uniform isn't worth extra money unless 
you're talking a team that is dying for a sellout (which neither Detroit 
nor Colorado are). Being put into the HOF in that team's jersey is (see 
Wade Boggs and his insanely high salary to play with the Diamondbacks 
for one year, with the stipulation that he would go into the HOF wearing 
a DBacks hat).
Of course you know this, and you know Robitaille will go to the HOF as a 
King, and that's why you tried to dodge that point when you responded.
Did I say that? Sure didn't. Is it worth a gamble to get a guy that you 
coach requested that you sign, a guy that scored 82 points the last time 
he was in a scoring role, a guy who flourished in a wide open NHL (which 
is where we are headed again), and a guy who meshes well with the 
coaching staff? Sure is.
Well yeah. But given that the Wings are up against the cap anyway, and 
haven't spent any money on any UFA that wasn't on the Wings' roster in 
03-04 that has any business on an NHL roster today, it begs the question 
of whether or not it was worth it to pay McCarty not to play. Seems to 
me that it doesn't really make a difference; he at least would have been 
a warm body. The Wings could use a handful of NHL players, you know.
Worth the salary? Not by a longshot. Never was. Holland was a retard for 
signing him to that in the first place.
Could the Wings use him? Definitely.
It's starting to look like Filppula will be a 2nd liner this year out of 
necessity.
-Thomas"
    @leavemealone: ""Thomas" <email_address> wrote in message 
news:<email_address>
<quote>
Well, Avs and Red Wings... which often amounts to the same thing when it 
comes to your 'assessments'.
"and might end up going into the HOF as an Av, which would be worth whatever 
they pay."
Hmm.
Hey, have fun with it Tom.  Personally, I'd be thrilled if the Avs depend on 
Turgeon as the second line center.  Having a guy playing 18+ a game and 
being -20 on the #2 line would make me chuckle.  I wouldn't have the Avs to 
cheer against in the playoffs, but I'd make due.
Conversely, they haven't lost any of their impact players from that season 
either.  Yet.
You seem to be answering your own question Tom.  If the Wings are 'up 
against the cap' (if by 'up against the cap' you mean 11 million dollars 
under the cap presuming Bootland and Kopecky are AHLers) then why waste 2 
million a year on a semi-worthless depth forward who only got that contract 
because he is a team guy and something of a face of the franchise?
Forwards:
Shanahan-Lang-xxx
Holmstrom-xxx-xxx
Maltby-Draper-Yzerman
Mowers-Franzen-Williams
Zetterberg fills the top line RW spot if he signs, Datsyuk the second-line 
center spot, leaving one second line forward spot.  To head off your next 
comment, Kovalchuk and Heatley haven't signed in Atlanta either, and there 
are a number of other name RFAs out there that are still sitting, so it's 
not doom and gloom on those two fronts... yet.  I'm starting to get a little 
nervous though.  And hell, it's always possible Detroit's thinking of 
something like this:
Shanahan-Lang-Draper
Holmstrom-xxx-Yzerman
Maltby-Franzen-Williams
Bootland-Mowers-xxx
In the event Datsyuk or Zetterberg won't resign.  While not a world-beater 
roster of forwards it'd be WAY under the cap, leaving the Wings room to take 
on a contract or two at the end of the year in a trade without having to 
give any back.  And this roster is definitely a playoff team.
Defense:
Lidstrom-Schnellios
Fischer-Cheider
Rivers-Kronwall-Delmore.
I love the defense.  Lidstrom and Schneider are -perfect- defensemen in a 
longer passing game, and Kronwall has some offense as well, if he signs.
Overall, the team is damn near the exact same club that won the freaking 
Presidents last season for around half the payroll.  It's hard to whine too 
much.
E."
    @binb: ""Thomas" <email_address> wrote in message 
news:<email_address>
<quote>
???  How so?  Kurri scored his 600th with the Avs, but sure as heck didn't 
go into the Hall as an Av.  Hell, Turgeon isn't even a lock for the HoF. 
Maybe he has a slightly better chance than Brendan Morrow, but he's no lock.
Also, too bad the Avs already have Turgeon's number retired.  I'm sure there 
wouldn't be a dry eye in the house when they raised his number 77 to the 
rafters.  LOL. "
    @wharry: "<quote>
What does Kurri have to do with anything?
He is if he scores 500.
You never know. Bourque only played two seasons with the Avs and he was 
much older than Turgeon is.
-Thomas"
    @binb: ""Thomas" <email_address> wrote in message 
news:<email_address>
<quote>
He was on the tail end of his career, and by the time he got here, he pretty 
much blew goats.  So the similarities are there.  Actually, you are right, 
the similarities end there.  Kurri was a much better player for longer than 
Turgeon.  And he wasn't as much of a journeyman.  What does the Hall do with 
guys who bounced around so much that it is hard to associate them with one 
team?  And who really, really sucked toward the end of their careers?
Thomas, you do realize I was being sarcastic there, right?  I thought it was 
sort of absurd for the Avs to retire Bourque's number.  Retiring Turgeon's 
would be akin to retiring Nolan Pratt's post-Blake 44 or Skoula's vintage 55 
or neo 41."
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