@CB: "Is Europe the New 'Dark Continent'?
When the Gospel went forth from Jerusalem, one of the places it took root
was Europe. And Europe became a center of Christian civilization for more
than 1,000 years. But there are signs that Europe's Christian era has come
to an end.
<url>
EXISTENCE
Is Europe the New 'Dark Continent'?
By Dale Hurd
CBN News Sr. Reporter
A poll conducted in 2002 found that while 61 percent of Americans had hope
for the future, only 42 percent of U.K. residents had that hope.
CBN.com - (CBN News) - When the Gospel went forth from Jerusalem, one of the
places it took root was Europe. And Europe became a center of Christian
civilization for more than 1,000 years. But there are signs that Europe's
Christian era has come to an end.
A big deal was made of the fact that the first draft of the new European
Union Constitution did not include a single mention of God. But most
Europeans act as if the Christian God of history no longer exists. Although
Europeans say they believe in some type of 'God,' church attendance in most
European countries is less than five percent.
Less than half of the British public can name any of the four New Testament
Gospels. Almost a third of all Dutch no longer know why we have Christmas
day.
There is a new 'dark continent'-the land that used to be known as Christian
Europe. Today, many of its cathedrals are simply large museum pieces. They
are 'artifacts of an ancient religion, and a dead faith.'
Jessica Elgood is an analyst at the British research firm, MORI. She said,
"Our polling shows that large proportions of the British public still
believe in God - concepts of a Christian God. But very few actually practice
that faith through 'an organized religion.'"
She continued, "Only three percent of the public regularly attend church.
And of those three percent, half of those are black-black Britons-who only
make up about five percent of the population."
Richard Miniter lives in Brussels and is a correspondent for The London
Sunday Times. He said, "When, as an American in Europe, you tell Europeans
that you go to church on Sunday, they look at you like a museum
piece-something strange."
Miniter also said, "There are more practicing Muslims in France than there
are baptized Catholics. Out of a nation of more than 60 million Frenchmen,
less than four million are baptized Catholics. A generation ago, that just
wouldn't have been so."
Near Brussels, at Christian Center, an Assemblies of God church, Belgian
Pastor Paul Devos preaches to a culture that no longer believes Christian
faith is the answer to anything.
Devos said, "In the United States, people would more quickly turn toward, at
least Christ, in general, and Christianity, because it's still somewhat part
of the culture, in general. Here in Europe, we have gone beyond that point,
and people do not expect anything from religion, apart from some very
abstract hope that there is something after this life. [They think] for this
life, there is no hope to be found in the church."
Reverend Alan Baker is an American pastor at Christian Center. He said,
"Something I hear a lot is an 'ancient spirit of hopelessness.'"
Baker added, "I've had people tell me, when they come off the plane getting
into Belgium, it's as if there are spiritual hands around their throat. They
just can't seem to breathe. It's a very heavy, heavy thing, a hopelessness."
It's not just a feeling. While most Americans say they are hopeful about the
future, most Europeans in this poll admitted they are literally hopeless.
A poll conducted in 2002 found that while 61 percent of Americans had hope
for the future, only 42 percent of U.K. residents had that hope. On the
European continent it was even worse, with only 29 percent of the French
saying they have hope for the future, and only 15 percent of Germans.
Miniter said, "The loss of faith, in Europe, is like an 'unseen black star'
that still has a tremendous gravitational pull. They don't understand why
their culture is failing. They don't understand why divorce rates and
suicide rates are so high. They don't understand why so few European women
have more than one child, and why on most European streets, you see more
dogs than children. This is the impact of the death of real Christian belief
in Europe."
Yet the European media never tires of mocking America's high church
attendance as "something weird," or portraying President Bush's faith as a
"weapon of mass destruction."
In a typical comment, written in the Sunday Herald, the writer says
President Bush is "under the influence of the crackpot TV evangelism that is
so peculiar to America."
European elites are especially worried that Bush prays a lot.
A writer for Britain's The Economist magazine wrote, "To Europeans, religion
is the strangest and most disturbing feature about [America]."
European elites worry that "fundamentalists" are "hijacking" the country.
They find it extraordinary that three times as many Americans believe in the
virgin birth as in evolution.
Elgood said, "I actually think we don't understand it [American
Christianity] at all, and it's one of these gaps between our cultures, that
actually leaves us scratching our heads at each other. We don't understand
it. It hasn't been a part of our life here for 40 years."
When Elgood's firm asked the British to name an 'inspirational' figure,
Jesus finished at the bottom.
The Mori poll found that 65 percent of Britons named Nelson Mandela, 14
percent picked Prime Minister Tony Blair, 10 percent said 'none of the
above', and six percent said Britney Spears. Astonishingly, only one percent
named Jesus Christ as an inspirational figure.
Religion is an especially dirty word in European politics; many European
leaders are atheists.
British Prime Minister Tony Blair is not one of them, but during the Iraq
war, when Blair wanted to end a televised address to the nation with the
words "God Bless You," his aides talked him out of it.
Some analysts say religious differences between America and Europe are
reaching the point of driving the two continents apart.
But could Europe be poised for revival?
A licensed Christian broadcaster in the U.K. at Premier Radio, Managing
Director Peter Kerridge believes the demise of the church in Europe has been
greatly exaggerated.
Kerridge said, "It doesn't matter how many Times headlines there are, saying
the church is dead. The truth is, the church will never die."
Kerridge added, "We are seeing some decline, in some branches of the
established church and huge growth in other areas of the church.
In London, the black Pentecostal church is exploding. Huge growth. And one
of the hopes for the church in the UK is the re-evangelization of England by
ethnic minorities. "
But in Europe, evangelization can be tough going.
Devos said, "What I always tell the congregation, our congregation, is that
if we want to reach out, it has to go through personal contacts. We cannot
go ringing doorbells and going from home to home trying to reach them,
because they do not trust us."
Pastor Baker says the hopelessness of many Europeans can be seen in a
conversation he had with a successful Belgian businessman.
Baker said, "[The businessman] was trembling, with tears in his eyes, and he
said to me-literally face to face-'Now pastor, if you believe the Bible is
God's word, if you believe it's the message of life and hope, give me one
reason, today  give me one reason to go on living. If you can't do it, I'm
taking my life right now. I can't take it anymore!' Then he says, 'Don't
look at me that way. There's nothing wrong with me. It's not just me, it's
my wife, it's my children, it's all our friends-we have nothing to live
for'-it's all across my nation!"
Though the church buildings still remain, European secularists assumed that
Modernism would do away with religion. But secularism has created a
spiritual void, a vacuum in Europe that beckons faith to return.
There is a real worry that if Europe tires of this spiritual chaos, then the
religion they will turn to is Islam. Islam is the fastest growing religion
in Europe.
CB
When a governmental practice has been "deeply embedded in the history and
tradition of this country," such a practice will not violate the
Establishment Clause because the practice has become part of the "fabric of
our society." See Marsh v. Chambers, 463 U.S. 783, 786 (1983). The Ten
Commandments played a significant role in the development of American law.
The incorporation of the Ten Commandments in law and policy pre?dates the
Constitution. This intermingling of the Ten Commandments into American law
and government was long before the appearance of legislative prayers. The
drafters of the First Amendment would never have dreamed they were
abolishing the Decalogue.
     The Ten Commandments in American Law and Government
        By Mathew D. Staver <url>"
    @Usr94: "LOL the 700 club ... only an idiotic bible thumper would watch that and than
lack the brains to refer to it.
For those who do not know the 700 club or CBN news is  a joke. The reporters
at CBN interview each other and report it as news. Fox News is ultra-liberal
compared to CBN.
Sometimes  the numbers of the religious freaks in US really scare me. Living
near NYC I tend to forget how many closed-minded morons populate this
country."
    @elemtilasNOSPAM: "On Mon, 24 May 2004 20:54:56 GMT, <email_address> (William)
wrote:
<quote>
Quite likely. Christianity, while it has done great service to
humanity, did some pretty boneheaded things as well. Unfortunately for
history, what people remember is the Inquisition and the condemnation
of science. And it's also the line that many modern Christians like to
preach as well.
That's very hard to do. They look around themselves and see Muslims
and Jews and Hindus and Buddhists and all sorts of Miscellaneous who
also claim that "God exists and is speaking through them". And some of
those religions (like Christianity) make the claim that they alone are
the full repository of God's word and are the only way. They can't
reconcile this and figure "why bother? Let those who care argue over
which god is best and which religion is right - I have better things
to do right here and right now!"
And I must say that I am sympathetic. I read a lot of religious lunacy
in these groups and don't really see the point of all that bickering.
To be fair - those are things we can't even expect from religion. Do
you think that if such an experiment could even be devised that it
would not have already been done?
Padraic.
la cieurgeourea provoer mal trasfu
ast meiyoer ke 'l andrext ben trasfu."
    @lavayt: "    This is probably the most sensitive subject anyone can talk about. The
simple fact is, whether Christianity (or just about any religion) is true or
not, it works for a lot of people... i.e. their lives are enriched by it. If
people can be atheist and still live as well as another person who is
Christian, by all means go for it. Are we bashing Indians for being Hindu or
Buddhist? Why then are we bashing Europeans (OR Americans, for that matter)
for being "non-spiritual?"
    Personally, I may be Christian, but Bush is a dumbass for flaunting his
religion and talking as if he had some "hot line" right to God. A lot of
people are plain scared of stuff like that... like the woman in the US
recently who killed her two children in their sleep "because God told her
to." A good politican hides his allegiances, to minimize the vulnerability.
Europe may or MAY NOT be losing "spirituality," but the ones I've talked to
and known personally are not "hopeless." If all of Europe was that hopeless
they'd commit mass suicide and leave an empty continent.
news:<email_address>
<quote>
root
more
come"
    @elemtilasNOSPAM: "On Mon, 24 May 2004 18:20:22 -0700, "AngryHydra" <email_address>
wrote:
<quote>
It certainly is! Though religion and politics are anethema in most NGs
- this one is actually dedicated to the discussion of matters
religious!
Never said it didn't. Clearly, it is n�t working for the great
majority of Europeans.  As evidenced by dramatic decreases in church
attendance, decrease in vocations, decreases in "religious practices"
and beleifs.
I am not. I continually defend the rightness of honestly sought after
religions in the face of some folks around here who call them all
sorts of names or insult those beleifs. I may or may not subscribe to
those relgions or their mythologies - and certainly don't accept their
mythologies to be necessarily factual or historical - but I do
understand that they play an important role in people's lives.
"We" aren't. The original poster simply stated a fact - though couched
it in perhaps less than complimentary verbiage. It is nevertheless
true that Europe is no longer equivalent to the old word
"christendom".
Well, it's not for me to comment on his personal beleifs - I don't
know him or them. It is perhaps a fine line he's walking, but thus
far, I can't say he's gone over that line into the territory I'd call
"theocracy".
Sure. People are �lways scared by strong willed people who are not
interested in pleasing everyone. Mr Bush is, furthermore, absolutely
terrifying to many political leftists who abhor religion in general
(and christianity in particular) as much as they abhor political
rightists.
I did say "fine line", yes? Here is an example of someone crossing
over that line. Other examples are Coresh and that suicidal UFO bunch.
Yeah. Never said Bush was a "good politician"!!! On the other hand, a
"good politician" is a sleazy bastard who I would n�ver allow within
ten feet of my family and who I find a distasteful necessity in this
little country of ours.
I don't recall it "losing spirituality" in the original post. I may
have mistaken what was said, but I think the point was that Europe is
losing its christianity. Big difference.
I think that was a poorly worded question. What did they mean by "hope
for the future"?
Padraic.
la cieurgeourea provoer mal trasfu
ast meiyoer ke 'l andrext ben trasfu."
    @WRITETOcommoner: "<quote>
Yes, more and more of Europe is currently awakening from the christian 
nightmare.
UNWRITTEN RULES OF (PSEUDO-CHRISTIAN) FUNDAMENTALISM
(Found in alt.bible, authors unknown)
1. "I'm right and you are wrong".
2. Never admit that you are wrong, even if you really are.
3. When you have nothing to say, hurl insults.
4. Regard and portray your own violence, whether physical, psychological,
or verbal, at all times as defensive
4a. Specific example for 4.: Cry for "freedom of religion", but whenever followers of other faiths want the same freedom and courts agree, scream "Persecution!"
5. Be prepared at all times to lie and bluster, particularly when backed
into a corner in an argument
5a. When caught lying, always accuse the opposition of lying rather than be honest and admit the obvious
6. Never accept responsibility for any mess you have personally caused.
7. When you are forced to admit to an error, regard the whole process of
error and correction as part of God's personal plan for you and not as a
something for which you should apologise retract or make amends except
verbally and secretly to God himself
8. Always see yourself and you personal actions as part of God's plans for
the world.  Recognise that even your errors are just part of Gods will for
the betterment of mankind.
9.Profess humility but avoid the actual experience of it.
10.Refuse to take in information that differs from your own view and
oppose all such information through classification of such information in
a derogatory and simplistic manner(eg by categorising it as left wing
propaganda)
11.Refuse to accept that truth is not black and white; that reality is
complex and there are shades of grey
12.Refuse to forgive anyone else for anything unless you purport to
forgive on behalf of other people unconnected with you for whom you don't
have that right anyhow."
    @mcca5761: "news:<email_address>
<quote>
Are you asking me why? I think it's about a few square miles of real estate
that Israel refuses to give up. That's all it is - nothing more. But we're
not allowed to suggest that solution.
Yes, the Arabs are using "terrorist" tactics. They don't have the money to
do aerial bombing. But they are dying for their beliefs as well. And they've
said in plain language why they hit the WTC. But we're not allowed to
mention the word "Jew".
BAM"
    @CB: "news:uCQsc.2454$<email_address>
<quote>
estate
they've
Go on, You have something to say about Jews?
CB
When a governmental practice has been "deeply embedded in the history and
tradition of this country," such a practice will not violate the
Establishment Clause because the practice has become part of the "fabric of
our society." See Marsh v. Chambers, 463 U.S. 783, 786 (1983). The Ten
Commandments played a significant role in the development of American law.
The incorporation of the Ten Commandments in law and policy pre?dates the
Constitution. This intermingling of the Ten Commandments into American law
and government was long before the appearance of legislative prayers. The
drafters of the First Amendment would never have dreamed they were
abolishing the Decalogue.
     The Ten Commandments in American Law and Government
        By Mathew D. Staver <url>"
    @mcca5761: "news:c9107u$11v$<email_address>
<quote>
we're
to
Yes, I do. They should make peace with their neighbors, and not try to use
the US as big brother. Of course, you "Suthin Christians" think that the end
of the world is near and somehow you and the Jews are going to participate
in some kind of final "hugfest", so you add to the problem.
BAM"
    @mcca5761: ""Paul Clare" <email_address> wrote
<quote>
The average Brit was two main views on religion:
1) None matter
2) except the Catholic religion, which is wrong.
BAM"
    @autodelete: " On Wed, 26 May 2004 14:29:48 -0400 in
alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic, bam ("bam"
<email_address>) said, directing the reply to
alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic 
<quote>
As a Brit, I'd have to observe that a little religion in ones
neighbours is tolerable, but too much is generally thought to be
unsound, particularly in (a) clergymen, and (b) politicians.
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You." 
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion?
See: <<url> 35.00 gets your video on DVD.
all posts to this email address are automatically deleted without being read.
** atheist poster child #1 ** #442."
    @hoogy: "news:uCQsc.2454$<email_address>
<quote>
estate
they've
-= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-
<url> - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-==  Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-"
    @hoogy: "I guess you missed the question...and I'm too busy to expound.
news:uCQsc.2454$<email_address>
<quote>
estate
they've
-= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-
<url> - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-==  Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-"
    @hoogy: "Bam is an Arab....enough said....    ONE WITH ABSOLUTELY NO INTEGRITY.
If not, dumber than a rock!!
Either or.....
news:QVZsc.5643$<email_address>
<quote>
money
end
-= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-
<url> - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-==  Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-"
    @hoogy: "God is real, whether or not a person who is steeped in world knows it or
not!
news:<email_address>
<quote>
news:<c8tjcn$ecn$<email_address>>...
hope
the
Europe's
Christian
They
said,
practice
-= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-
<url> - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-==  Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-"
    @hoogy: "Hey, that is why I am grateful to God that I am not Average!!
Love Ya Pa!!!
news:%j5tc.8951$<email_address>
<quote>
-= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-
<url> - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-==  Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-"
    @hoogy: "Boy, my body has been busy for the last two days...and tomorrow I have to
cut a ton of grass.  Tonight I still have to go to Wal-Mart and get Roundup
for the weeds and antifreeze for the tractor (so it doesn't overheat), and
8:00 is usually when I start studying..it is 7:53.
Just went online to sit down, have a cup of coffee and catch up on messages
and the ngs....
news:Hn9tc.4273$<email_address>
<quote>
-= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-
<url> - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-==  Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-"
    @scanbnospam31XXX: "<quote>
is that good????  they'd be waking up to a islamic nightmare......  I 
don't think they understand what they're dealing with..."
    @WRITETOcommoner: "Hey,
<quote>
Hardly. Islam is not forcefully established here. At least as far as I 
can tell, and if I'm wrong then I missed DAMN much.
Not that I'd be happier with islam. Monotheism as such is inherently 
dangerous, no matter how the impossible god is called.
"From the fury of the Northmen, o Lord, deliver us!"
(Desperate prayer of Irish monks when the Viking dragon ships were sighted. Obviously the Lord had more important things to do than to help his faithful...)
Greetings from Thore "Tocis" Schmechtig
Emails to rodney87@example.com will need a "HI-AK 523" in the subject or go down the drain!"
    @mcca5761: "news:40b52efd$<email_address>
<quote>
Roundup
messages
Well women should stay out of politics. You're inferior, and you've already
screwed up our military beyond belief.
BAM"
    @mcca5761: "news:13pz5p71jqqv8$.1is5j23yju44u$<email_address>
<quote>
there
You might try Augustine or Aquinas - but you probably wouldn't remotely
understand them.
BAM"
    @mcca5761: "news:9xzudco00wq6$.pc1uuc7jtjva$<email_address>
<quote>
or
you
Gladly. I've already given you more than you rate.
BAM"
    @scanbnospam31XXX: "<quote>
so's atheisim....  look at what went on in USSR when it existed.
you have to be guided by something within a moral compass.
there's nothing wrong with monotheistic based religion as long its 
message isn't corrupted and abused by persons or organziations for 
dubious ends & reasons."
    @WRITETOcommoner: "Hi,
<quote>
So? Because "others do it too" one's own crimes are harmless?
I don't deny that monotheists aren't the only ones with blood on their 
hands. In fact, it's usually braindead fundies who claim that their 
faith is what keeps people from killing, torturing, et cetera.
Q. E. D.
Yes, but that need not be a religion, mono- or polytheistic.
Too bad it's damn easy to corrupt a monotheistic message... that kind 
of doctrine practically begs to be abused.
"Let the Gods stay where they belonged, and if they would not, clan warriors would bid against them in a battle to claim spiritual rights."
(Robert Thurston, "BattleTech: Bloodname")
Greetings from Thore "Tocis" Schmechtig, proud German Asatruar"
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