@removethis_ajwerner: "2 questions. 1/ Christians believe that Jesus sacrificed himself (performed a human blood sacrifice) to save us from our sins. Dilemma: Jesus himself taught a way that specifically denies both the necessity and the value of blood sacrifices. Question: Why did Jesus carry out an action that he himself said has no value? What was the TRUE reason for Jesus allowing himself to be crucified? 2/ Why do most Christians believe so strongly that the Bible is God's directly and accurately inspired word? Could the Creator's thoughts and intensions have been badly misinterpreted and distorted by man's imperfect and dark mind? Andrew W. All religions rest on the patently illogical, un-provable premise that "what this book says is true because the book says it's true". That, unfortunately, is the best that religion has, and ever can offer, as a way of proving it's God/divine authorship premise, an embarrassingly paltry, painfully childish claim that would be laughed out of any court, as well as any credible institution of higher learning. ~ Michael Horn What we are told God and Jesus said, they did not say. <url> TABLE OF CONTENTS. Must read! <url> The true Creator wants us to be happy and abundant. <url> Audio version. <url> Think you know what ego is? Think again. The Bible is full of it! <url> Religion Exposed! <url>" @brze: "On Thu, 4 Jan 2007 17:27:06 +1100, "Andrew W" <quote> Because the action has nothing to do with the evil blood sacrifice. The true reason is to set an example of faith for us to follow in the battle against sin and evil. Because it reveals God's spiritual truth. Could the Creator's thoughts and Anyone who reads the Bible with a good spirit in their heart will learn the truth of God. Anyone who reads the Bible with an evil spirit in their mind will learn the lies of the Devil. So, simply by reading the same Bible and citing the same verse, people of heaven and hell are already separated." @removethis_ajwerner: ""Eric Brze" <email_address> wrote in message news:<email_address> <quote> What kind of example of faith is letting yourself be crucified? What if it doesn't quite do that? How can you be sure its God's PURE spiritual truth? Do you believe this has happened largely? Andrew W. All religions rest on the patently illogical, un-provable premise that "what this book says is true because the book says it's true". That, unfortunately, is the best that religion has, and ever can offer, as a way of proving it's God/divine authorship premise, an embarrassingly paltry, painfully childish claim that would be laughed out of any court, as well as any credible institution of higher learning. ~ Michael Horn What we are told God and Jesus said, they did not say. <url> TABLE OF CONTENTS. Must read! <url> The true Creator wants us to be happy and abundant. <url> Audio version. <url> Think you know what ego is? Think again. The Bible is full of it! <url> Religion Exposed! <url> " @Your: ""Andrew W" <email_address> wrote in news:459c9e3c$0$16557$<email_address>: <quote> This is a miracle. God keeps scripture accurate using the power of miracle. Question: why are Atheists so stupid that they cannot understand a simple word such a miracle? In Christ's name we pay. Rev. Dr. Rowland Croucher is the self-appointed leader of all Australian Christians and friend of Keith Exford and his lawyer Rod Dadak of London. <url>" @removethis_ajwerner: ""Read The Bible" <email_address> wrote in message news:<email_address> <quote> Correction: What was reported to have been said by Jesus by those who heard him. All we have is accounts, passed on by people with imperfect memories. No one walked around with pen and paper in those days so no accounts can be relied upon for accuracy or meaning. How do you know he wasn't referring only to the traitorous acts of the people in the town? We cannot just assume that it was a *blood sacrifice* for the sins of the *whole world*. I find your attempt at reading Jesus' mind unconvincing. I'm not convinced that Jesus commanded a sacrifice here. Negative reasoning. It doesn't actually say that Jesus' body was to be used as a sacrifice. No sacrifices have any value. Its far more logical and rational to conclude that it was to prove that there's no such thing as death, and this he did. Otherwise you cast God in heaven as a callous tyrant who demands ransoms, and who can only resolve evil by demanding more evil (blood). No mention of a book here. There's none in your mind because its already made up. There are only opinions that it is true as well. Not all faith comes from God. If it doesn't convince everyone, and if it is God's word, then God will lose a lot of his children. Unless the hell doctrine isn't true either. Then we will all eventually come back to God. Not just non-Christians. Believers only believe that they've got it right. Not all of it. There is no way of knowing which pieces of scripture that verse was referring to. What about all the televangelists and priests who were bad? Christians have dark minds too. Don't kid yourself. Don't pretend that you know what that's talking about. Andrew W. Jesus said that we must search everywhere for the truth. How naive and foolish is the man who thinks he can get all the answers to life from one convenient book. What we are told God and Jesus said, they did not say. <url> TABLE OF CONTENTS. Must read! <url> The true Creator wants us to be happy and abundant. <url> Audio version. <url> Think you know what ego is? Think again. The Bible is full of it! <url> Religion Exposed! <url> " @removethis_ajwerner: ""Rowland Croucher" <email_address> wrote in message news:<email_address> <quote> Its a miracle that so many people misunderstood Jesus' demonstration that there's no such thing as death (spiritual). Lol. cough cough. Unsupported assertion. Please substantiate. This is an example of naive Christian wishful thinking. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that God keeps the scriptures accurate. We have free will. That means we also have the free will to edit, interpret and teach the scriptures any way we like and God won't object or correct anyone (and hasn't to date). This means we currently have zero verification that we are teaching God's truth. A miracle is nothing more than an event or process that the observer currently has no understanding for. Once one understands how it works or exactly what happened it is no longer a miracle. A miracle is not a license for concocting bs reasonings and scenarios. You can pay if you like. Salvation is free. Read "A Course in Miracles" <url> Andrew W. Jesus said that we must search everywhere for the truth. How naive and foolish is the man who thinks he can get all the answers to life from one convenient book. What we are told God and Jesus said, they did not say. <url> TABLE OF CONTENTS. Must read! <url> The true Creator wants us to be happy and abundant. <url> Audio version. <url> Think you know what ego is? Think again. The Bible is full of it! <url> Religion Exposed! <url> " @brze: "On Thu, 4 Jan 2007 18:29:24 +1100, "Andrew W" <quote> It would be the BEST example of faith one can ever know. I can never be sure. It's the truth of God that is always sure. The truth is always self evident. How would I know? I hope all can read the Bible with a good spirit who is the Holy Spirit, but that is not for me to decide." @brze: "On Thu, 04 Jan 2007 07:59:47 GMT, "SheBlewHimDidYouBlowHim" <quote> It must have been a long, long time ago I used that argument. Look, I have changed. I have improved. :-) If you can't find the truth of the Bible, it would be a good thing you can use it to wrap your ass instead. Is that the best you can do?" @noway: "On Thu, 4 Jan 2007 17:27:06 +1100, "Andrew W" <email_address> claimed: <quote> You'd have to show where He said what you claim. Quote the passage. You can research this for yourself. If you look at more than "God hater" web sites, you'll find your answers. Truth is what matters and it is the Truth that will set you free!" @brze: "On Thu, 04 Jan 2007 17:01:02 GMT, "G-Net" <email_address> wrote: <quote> He sacrificed himself for us and us alone. He did not sacrifice himself as an offering to the force of evil and darkness. He did away with the mosaic law because the mosaic law is an evil law that never has anything to do with God. The answer is yes, and the purpose would be to allow everyone to choose their own destiny. Those who follow the truth will receive life. Those who sacrifice truth for falsehood will fall in hell." @removethis_ajwerner: ""Eric Brze" <email_address> wrote in message news:<email_address> <quote> Which is,,, what exactly? I see. How marvellous. So do I. Oh. Ok. Andrew W. Jesus said that we must search everywhere for the truth. How naive and foolish is the man who thinks he can get all the answers to life from one convenient book. What we are told God and Jesus said, they did not say. <url> TABLE OF CONTENTS. Must read! <url> The true Creator wants us to be happy and abundant. <url> Audio version. <url> Think you know what ego is? Think again. The Bible is full of it! <url> Religion Exposed! <url> " @brze: "On Fri, 5 Jan 2007 07:22:59 +1100, "Andrew W" <quote> Which is the only way for the salvation of mankind. Yes, indeed. The truth of God is indeed marvelous." @removethis_ajwerner: "news:ipanh.109$<email_address> <quote> The usual thin reasoning. ?? God's power has nothing to do with our interpretations skills and ability to understand and correctly relay messages. There's a gaping hole in your sentence. Free will/choice. Andrew W. Jesus said that we must search everywhere for the truth. How naive and foolish is the man who thinks he can get all the answers to life from one convenient book. What we are told God and Jesus said, they did not say. <url> TABLE OF CONTENTS. Must read! <url> The true Creator wants us to be happy and abundant. <url> Audio version. <url> Think you know what ego is? Think again. The Bible is full of it! <url> Religion Exposed! <url>" @removethis_ajwerner: ""Eric Brze" <email_address> wrote in message news:<email_address> <quote> I don't think you've answered the question properly somehow. You forgot to say halleluiah praise the Lord. Andrew W. Jesus said that we must search everywhere for the truth. How naive and foolish is the man who thinks he can get all the answers to life from one convenient book. What we are told God and Jesus said, they did not say. <url> TABLE OF CONTENTS. Must read! <url> The true Creator wants us to be happy and abundant. <url> Audio version. <url> Think you know what ego is? Think again. The Bible is full of it! <url> Religion Exposed! <url> " @bilsgrdn: ""Eric Brze" <email_address> wrote in message news:<email_address> <quote> Saved from what, Eric? The only thing man needs to be saved from is dogmatic, controlling, power-hungry religion...yours included. C'mon Eric, please try to put your brain in gear before putting your typing fingers in motion, will ya? The truth is NOT always self-evident. Ok, just tell us one truth you got from God. And was this truth given to you directly from God, or some book, or...other? Shalom, Bill" @bilsgrdn: ""% -*- Truth -*- %" <email_address> wrote in message news:<email_address> <quote> Always trust the man who is searching for the truth; never trust the man who says he has it. Shalom, Bill " @brze: "On Thu, 4 Jan 2007 14:20:03 -0800, "Wild Bill" <email_address> wrote: <quote> Saved from the suffering and death in sin. The only thing man needs to be saved from is Actually, I think the dogmatic, controlling, power-hungry religion is more a solution than a problem. Once all the religious fundamentalists have gone to "heaven" by committing suicide, the world will be a better place. Don't you think so? :-) I agree the truth of man is never self-evident. It's conditional and subjective. But the truth of God is always self-evident. Sorry. I would very much like to tell you everything I know, but I don't know how. :-)" @brze: "On Fri, 5 Jan 2007 08:56:21 +1100, "Andrew W" <quote> Sorry. That's the best answer I can come up. :-) Yes. It's not in my nature to do something like that. Instead of lifting my head up, I'm more comfortable to bow my head down. It feels closer to the Lord in my heart that way." @noway: "On Thu, 4 Jan 2007 14:28:10 -0800, "Wild Bill" <email_address> claimed: <quote> Using that logic, one might as well not search, since if they find the answer, they are not trustworthy. According to you, the best state to be in, is in the dark, wandering through life, without any idea of what the truth is. This may be your idea, but is was certainly not God's idea. "I am the way, the truth and the life." - Jesus Christ Truth is what matters and it is the Truth that will set you free!" @noway: "On 4 Jan 2007 14:07:14 -0800, "colp" <email_address> claimed: <quote> Believe that Gnostic garbage if you wish. But it would not be a divine lesson about the meaning of sacrifice, if He let someone else be crucified and did not sacrifice Himself. You're acting the idiot. Or maybe you just are an idiot. Christians take it to be "God's inspired word", because they believe that "God inspired that word" and that means all of it. Truth is what matters and it is the Truth that will set you free!" @brze: "On Fri, 05 Jan 2007 01:19:10 GMT, "SheBlewHimDidYouBlowHim" <quote> No, that was before I learned to read the Bible within its context. The Bible was crap to me in the beginning, then it started to shine with the light of truth verse by verse, now it is without doubt the Word of God. Guess I'm the exact reverse of what you have been going through, right? :-) Only because you are unable to learn the truth." @bilsgrdn: ""colp" <email_address> wrote in message news:<email_address> <quote> Most modern scholars are in agreement that the "pastorals", 1 and 2 Timothy & Titus were not written by Paul. In fact, they say that only 6 or 7 of the epistles attributed to him are genuinely Pauline. Shalom, Bill" @bilsgrdn: ""colp" <email_address> wrote in message news:<email_address> <quote> Again, many critical scholars will tell you that a historical Jesus did in fact exist. However, they will also be quick to tell you that the mythical Jesus described in the N.T. did not. Shalom, Bill" @noway: "On 4 Jan 2007 23:02:02 -0600, bob young <email_address> claimed: <quote> Right. Okay, jack ass. Truth is what matters and it is the Truth that will set you free!" @noway: "On 4 Jan 2007 17:40:15 -0800, "colp" <email_address> claimed: <quote> Nice try at twisting my words. Oh, I see. A double talking idiot who thinks he knows God's mind. Truth is what matters and it is the Truth that will set you free!" @brze: "On 4 Jan 2007 22:53:02 -0600, bob young <email_address> wrote: <quote> I disagree. I think exactly because only God exists, we have thousands of gods from every corner of the earth trying to take God's place to rule this world. Jehovah of the Old Testament is one of those gods which had found an opportunity to do so by deceiving Abraham and his descendents." @brze: "On 4 Jan 2007 22:50:02 -0600, bob young <email_address> wrote: <quote> The truth is not easily seen or understood. Only by the light from the Spirit of God, can there be an opportunity for us to learn everything about the truth. I see it differently. I think there is nothing wrong with the contradictions. The reason there is a contradiction is because we haven't learned the truth. Once we have learned the truth, there won't be contradiction anymore. Everything will become crystal clear and self-explanatory." @bilsgrdn: ""% -*- Truth -*- %" <email_address> wrote in message news:<email_address> <quote> In your not-so-humble opinion. Take a look here, pal: <url> Shalom, Bill" @bilsgrdn: ""% -*- Truth -*- %" <email_address> wrote in message news:<email_address> <quote> Is it now? I'm more inclined to think it's more of your not-so-humble opinion. Shalom, Bill" @mmman_90: ""% -*- Truth -*- %" <email_address> wrote in message news:<email_address> <quote> Nope, just a fact. " @noway: "On Fri, 5 Jan 2007 07:03:05 -0800, "Wild Bill" <email_address> claimed: <quote> No, they're not in agreement. That is old info, based on liberal, leftists, on the lunatic fringe of scholarship, which isn't even considered scholarship any more. Truth is what matters and it is the Truth that will set you free!" @noway: "On Fri, 5 Jan 2007 07:09:55 -0800, "Wild Bill" <email_address> claimed: <quote> That's a load of crap. Truth is what matters and it is the Truth that will set you free!" @bilsgrdn: ""colp" <email_address> wrote in message news:<email_address> <quote> Burton L. Mack, author of "Who Wrote the New Testament? : The Making of the Christian Myth", answers that question rather well from a cultural and historical perspective. I highly recommend this read. Shalom, Bill" @bilsgrdn: ""% -*- Truth -*- %" <email_address> wrote in message news:<email_address> <quote> Methinks thou doth protest too much! However, I note that you haven't been able to refute my claim or the conclusions of those scholars on that site. Until you do, I think it's fair to say that you are the one who is stupid and biased... Shalom, Bill" @bilsgrdn: ""% -*- Truth -*- %" <email_address> wrote in message news:<email_address> <quote> You've read the book twice and debunked it. Where and when did you debunk it? Could you provide us with a copy? And, if you have indeed read it, you won't mind telling us Mack's credentials, such as where he teaches and what other books he has authored, will you? And, please do point me to books that say the opposite. I'm eager to look at all viewpoints. Wow! name-calling and hysterical ranting. A sure sign of one who has his back against the wall. Well, there are other books I can refer to you...if you're not afraid to go near them. I'll provide the list anytime you ask for it. Shalom, Bill" @bilsgrdn: ""% -*- Truth -*- %" <email_address> wrote in message news:<email_address> <quote> No one can ever really *prove* anything, although the preponderance of evidence usually points in a certain direction and there are facts in reality that are immutable. I can provide a list of these scholars, along with their credentials. No need to shout, pal. But, please provide us with one example of a liberal, left-wing lunatic. And finally, what do you consider outdated? Seems to me that the 4,000 year old book you idolize is hardly current! Shalom, Bill" @removethis_ajwerner: ""Eric Brze" <email_address> wrote in message news:<email_address> <quote> That doesn't wash because many gods popping up doesn't necessarily mean they're doing it to take a real God's place, and if there was a real God then he wouldn't tolerate such an outrage for one second. Andrew W. Jesus said that we must search everywhere for the truth. How naive and foolish is the man who thinks he can get all the answers to life from one convenient book. What we are told God and Jesus said, they did not say. <url> TABLE OF CONTENTS. Must read! <url> The true Creator wants us to be happy and abundant. <url> Audio version. <url> Think you know what ego is? Think again. The Bible is full of it! <url> Religion Exposed! <url> " @removethis_ajwerner: ""Eric Brze" <email_address> wrote in message news:<email_address> <quote> You've been hypnotised by it like too many others. We've just lost another sane person. So sad. If the Bible had truth then it would have been used to help the world out of its problems by now. Andrew W. Jesus said that we must search everywhere for the truth. How naive and foolish is the man who thinks he can get all the answers to life from one convenient book. What we are told God and Jesus said, they did not say. <url> TABLE OF CONTENTS. Must read! <url> The true Creator wants us to be happy and abundant. <url> Audio version. <url> Think you know what ego is? Think again. The Bible is full of it! <url> Religion Exposed! <url> " @removethis_ajwerner: ""% -*- Truth -*- %" <email_address> wrote in message news:<email_address> <quote> Searched for info is more likely to be trustworthy than church dogma info. Search and you will find. Search not and you won't. That's what happens if you don't search. Christianity has wrapped Jesus' message in dogma. Andrew W. Jesus said that we must search everywhere for the truth. How naive and foolish is the man who thinks he can get all the answers to life from one convenient book. What we are told God and Jesus said, they did not say. <url> TABLE OF CONTENTS. Must read! <url> The true Creator wants us to be happy and abundant. <url> Audio version. <url> Think you know what ego is? Think again. The Bible is full of it! <url> Religion Exposed! <url> " @removethis_ajwerner: ""colp" <email_address> wrote in message news:<email_address> <quote> Paul was traumatised by a spook on the road to Damascus so he could have been insane and thus his writings non credible. Exactly. Therefore Christians should not be mouthing off about something which they know not the truth of. Andrew W. Jesus said that we must search everywhere for the truth. How naive and foolish is the man who thinks he can get all the answers to life from one convenient book. What we are told God and Jesus said, they did not say. <url> TABLE OF CONTENTS. Must read! <url> The true Creator wants us to be happy and abundant. <url> Audio version. <url> Think you know what ego is? Think again. The Bible is full of it! <url> Religion Exposed! <url> " @brze: "On Sat, 6 Jan 2007 16:57:32 +1100, "Andrew W" <quote> The difference between God and the false gods is the false gods are only taking God's place without doing God's work. God's work is to support life and provide love and happiness to life. The false gods do not and can not do the work of God. They only want the place to rule over life. That is why under the rule of every false god starting from Jehovah for example, death is a common occurrence. Now, is God going to be outraged by such evil? You bet. God is more than outraged. The problem is, when we take the false gods as God himself, we have made ourselves the hostages under the false gods' control. As long as we continue to believe the false gods, God can not eliminate the rule of the false gods without harming us. After all, the false gods are only in our heads." @noway: "On Fri, 5 Jan 2007 12:40:35 -0800, "Wild Bill" <email_address> claimed: <quote> I don't bother with web pages put up by biased people, who are only going to claim the same thing you do, because they're just as biased as you are. What would be the point? Don't bother telling me what "early Christian writings" are, when you're going to be looking at writings that are far newer than the writings in the NT. It only proves that you are stupid and biased, which is a really bad combination. Truth is what matters and it is the Truth that will set you free!" @noway: "On Fri, 5 Jan 2007 12:44:18 -0800, "Wild Bill" <email_address> claimed: <quote> Yes, it is, which is why that's all you had to say. You can't prove your case and then try to criticize others, because of you impotence in this matter. You rely on outdated, liberal, left wing, lunatic fringe info. And you do so, because you WANT it to be true, NOT because you can prove it to be true. Truth is what matters and it is the Truth that will set you free!" @noway: "On Fri, 5 Jan 2007 16:33:34 -0500, "Ralph" <email_address> claimed: <quote> Well, you said so, so that must be proof. <chuckle> Truth is what matters and it is the Truth that will set you free!" @removethis_ajwerner: ""% -*- Truth -*- %" <email_address> wrote in message news:<email_address> <quote> You have just shown your narrow mindedness. What a bigoted and triumphalist excuse. If you hate biased info so much then you should throw out your Bible because it was definitely written by biased religious zealots. Old does not make true. Christians have this silly idea that the older a document is the truer it must be and a modern document cannot possibly contain truth. What conservative crap. We know a lot more about the world and universe today than people did centuries ago. Andrew W. Jesus said that we must search everywhere for the truth. How naive and foolish is the man who thinks he can get all the answers to life from one convenient book. What we are told God and Jesus said, they did not say. <url> TABLE OF CONTENTS. Must read! <url> The true Creator wants us to be happy and abundant. <url> Audio version. <url> Think you know what ego is? Think again. The Bible is full of it! <url> Religion Exposed! <url> " @noway: "On Fri, 5 Jan 2007 15:17:20 -0800, "Wild Bill" <email_address> claimed: <quote> It answers to those who don't want the NT to be true. I have read it twice and debunked it. So you'll need a lot more to prove your claim to be true. Your book is no more than ranting. I can point you to books that say the opposite. But of course, to you, they're not true. Why not? Because you said so and that is all of the evidence that you possess. You are an idiot, who is ignorant and is incapable of discussing any of it and will only keep referring to this book, as if it in of itself, is the Gospel and then demand that I prove it wrong, because you know damn well that you can't back up your claims and because you know it's just some dumb jack ass making claims that he can't back up. Truth is what matters and it is the Truth that will set you free!" @noway: "On Sat, 06 Jan 2007 03:25:28 GMT, "SheBlewHimDidYouBlowHim" <email_address> claimed: <quote> So where is the "all loving" atheist? You atheists claim to be the loving ones and claim that we Christians are the ones who show no love. How much love are you showing now to Christians, while going through life claiming that it is atheists who show love to their fellow man and are the tolerant ones? I see no tolerance in any of your posts, hater. Truth is what matters and it is the Truth that will set you free!" @noway: "On Sat, 6 Jan 2007 18:14:49 +1100, "Andrew W" <email_address> claimed: <quote> Really? And so, if you say so, then it must be true. After all, there couldn't be any bias in that statement, right? And btw, you didn't deal with the issue. Your claims make no sense. If you find something that you claim is true, you have automatically disqualified it from being truth, by believing that those who claim to have the truth, which would be you at this point, are not trustworthy. Therefore, to search, means to be less and less trustworthy, the more you find out. See above. Thank you for admitting that that was His message. And by doing so, you have just admitted that you outright reject His message, which means that you claim to know the truth. And even if you claim that was not His message and that someone merely claimed it was, you are still making a truth claim and have thereby claimed that you are not trustworthy, because you made said claim. Truth is what matters and it is the Truth that will set you free!" @noway: "On Fri, 5 Jan 2007 21:05:51 -0800, "Wild Bill" <email_address> claimed: <quote> A nice con job you try to label people with. If you can't prove your case, just claim that the other person must know you're right, because they object to your statements. Remember, oh not so bright one... that it was you who was protesting against the Gospels and it was I who simply responded to your protests. Btw, how does a web site with hundreds of documents get to the point of you supporting your claim? But hey, here's my proof.... <url> You can start there and keep reading until you get to the end. Hey, I just wanted to be fair and use the same method you did. <chuckle> You can rant all you want. The bottom line is that you pointed to documents that are far newer than the NT, to try to prove that the NT is the changed version. You simply aren't too bright! <chuckle> And btw, I don't have to prove a thing, moron. Those who request that YOU prove YOUR claims, are under no obligation to prove a damn thing. But let it be noted that as you lunatic left fringe nuts always do, you made a claim and then think that others are stupid enough to think that unless someone proves your claims wrong, that automatically proves your claims are right. But hey, here's some of your method for you.... You're a pedophile. Now unless you can prove that you're not, we will have to assume that my claim is right. Oh and btw, if you object to my claim, then, well, I guess "Me thinks that thou doth protest too much", right? <chuckle> P.S.: Lemme guess... 17 years old? Truth is what matters and it is the Truth that will set you free!" @noway: "On Fri, 5 Jan 2007 21:31:20 -0800, "Wild Bill" <email_address> claimed: <quote> And yet, you have had no problem making truth claims which state that the NT is wrong. Hypocrite! Once again, a load of crap! (: You are trying to pretend to be making an intelligent argument, but trust me son, you are not succeeding. (: 1) You are assuming a "preponderance of evidence", when you have proved no such thing. In fact, that's all you have done so far. Assume that everything you say is fact and to put it bluntly, you have been foolish enough to think that I would assume the same thing, even though I have proved to you repeatedly that I am not stupid enough to do that, since I look for evidence and not just someone claiming that their claims are "an immutable preponderance of evidence". 2) You are trying to say that no one can prove anything and then in the same breath, you are saying that it is proved, by saying that what you found, is against what the NT says and cannot be changed (immutable) and that this equates to proof of your claim. So you contradict yourself and make a truth claim, while trying to avoid admitting that you did exactly that. 3) You are also claiming that what you found is evidence of your claims, when you have proved no such thing. The fact is, that your so called "proof" was a web site that contains many, many writings and for the most part, they do not contradict Christian beliefs. Yet here you are, claiming that the link you provided is proof. But even if they did all contradicted what the NT says (they don't), that does not prove your claim, because: a) They were written long after the NT, by people who did not know Christ personally and anyone can later claim anything. I can claim that Christ was actually named "Fred" and ran a brothel and write that and claim that my document is proof. So what. And don't bother telling me that they did not personally know Christ, since that would be another claim that you would have to prove and furthermore, it wouldn't matter insofar as YOUR SPECIFIC claims are concerned, since they would still be older than what you referenced (generally referenced) and therefore, the weight of burden would still be on you. b) Providing a list of documents is not proof. You must show exactly where each document supports YOUR SPECIFIC claims AND you MUST then verify that I should put more weight on those documents, than those in the NT. Good luck! :) And I really do wish that you would stop approaching this discussion as if I am stupid enough to fall for your illogical arguments. You are doing nothing more than insulting my intelligence and this is not acceptable. The fact is, that your so called "proof" was a web site that contains many, many writings and for the most part, they do not contradict Christian beliefs. Yet here you are, claiming that the link you provided is proof of your claims. So all you are doing, really, is stacking claims on top of each other and then claiming (adding to the stack) that each next claim proves all of the former claims. That is simply ridiculous!!! (: On top of this, you knew how weak your claim was, since after posting the link, you have been trying to get me to prove you wrong, as if it were my job to have to prove that anything and everything you say is wrong, instead of it being your job to prove your claims to be accurate. That's desperation! <chuckle> And what does this mean? I can provide a list of scholars that say the opposite. And it will be bigger than yours. But so what? Will that make you believe what I say? No, of course not! And YOU KNOW THAT'S TRUE! So that makes you a hypocrite! The truth is, you have a short list of "scholars" who are on the lunatic left fringe. This is not proof. That would be like me saying that I can provide a list of people that say that the Big Bang never happened and that I can provide a list of scientists who agree and their credentials. You would claim that they are not "real scientists", not caring at all what their credentials are and completely ignoring said credentials and you would tell me that they are nuts. And that son, makes you a hypocrite! (: My apologies. I should have told you that I do not use caps for shouting, but rather, for emphasis. That is my fault and again, I do apologize and I also apologize for being harsh with you in my previous messages. And please do not take my use of certain words in this message as an attack, such as the word, "hypocrite". I am merely stating what I see as hypocrisy and I am not trying to say that you are always a hypocrite. But I do feel that you are being one, at least in this discussion and probably in the whole issue of God and the Bible. I am not bound to provide you with anything. You keep requesting proof from me and yet, here I am, RESPONDING to YOUR claims. It is YOU who is bound to provide proof, NOT me! :) Just to be kind though, "Finkelstein" comes to mind. He is not really an "NT guy", but he does dabble with it and he is well known to be on the lunatic left fringe and people like you latch right on to anything he says, because he says what you want to hear. But although he has the pieces of paper, he is not considered to be a reputable, respectable Biblical scholar, by those who know better. But he is not a point of contention here and I am not going to allow you to try to distract from the discussion, by focusing on him, so don't bother. 1) I do not need to tell you what is outdated. And frankly, if you do not know, that proves your total ignorance in Biblical scholarship. 2) There is a science that you are obviously unaware of, which is called, "textual criticism". And no, that doesn't mean criticizing the text. :) I am however. very well aware of it and do perform my own, as well as reading that of others from all sides of the issue. Unlike you, I do not spend my time reading only one side of the issue. And I doubt you read even that much. I examine all sides and it is doing exactly that, that strengthens my firm belief in the Scriptures. But that is another discussion. :) 3) The Bible is not a "4,000 year old book". How can you pretend to be an expert, when you don't even know this? It seems to me that you are just desperate to find something that you can use to rail against God's word. 4) The Bible is not "a book". Again, how can you pretend to be an expert, when you don't even know this? It is 66 writings, consisting of books and letters. It seems to me that you are just desperate to find something that you can use to rail against God's word. 5) You have made a personal accusation against me. You said that I "idolize the Bible". Prove this claim, please. And proof does not consist of you asking me questions, nor does it consist of you making more claims about me and more accusations about me and the Bible and then claiming that I am supposed to prove you wrong, which has been your M.O. thus far. (: YOU made the accusations. YOU prove them. The truth is, that you probably said this as both a distraction and as a way of making more accusations out of hate for God and His word. What I wonder is... If it is the unbelievers who are tolerant and love their fellow man, which they claim that Christians are not/do not do, then why do unbelievers spend so much time railing against God and attacking believers? Truth is what matters and it is the Truth that will set you free!" @noway: "On Fri, 5 Jan 2007 21:17:36 -0800, "Wild Bill" <email_address> claimed: <quote> Once again, you prove your shady intent! YOU are the one making claims about this book. It is up to YOU to prove YOUR claims about this book. If you think that it proves YOUR claims, then go ahead and show us how. You seem to think that mentioning the title to a book is somehow proof of all of your claims. Furthermore, you are trying to turn the tables and place me on the defensive, but I am not that stupid. YOU have made claims. YOU back them up. Thus far, ALL you have done, is to make claims and provide ZERO evidence, But here, let's use your logic. ME: "The Bible is true." YOU: Prove it! ME: "Okay, just read the Bible." You made a claim about a book. Now prove that claim. You are full of claims and empty on proof. Truth is what matters and it is the Truth that will set you free!" @bilsgrdn: ""Andrew W" <email_address> wrote in message news:459f4ee2$0$9770$<email_address> <quote> Well, that account is according to Luke, who wrote the book of Acts. Paul himself, never stated in any of his epistles the circumstances of his conversion. There are actually three accounts of Paul's so-called conversion in the book of Acts. They contradict each other badly. Sorry, I'm too lazy this morning to look them up for you. Probably you all need the practice anyway! Shalom, Bill" @brze: "On 6 Jan 2007 04:42:02 -0600, bob young <email_address> wrote: <quote> It's what I have learned. I can not prove what you have no interest to learn in the first place. It's not about belief. It's a fact of life. God is the source of life. False gods are the false source of life. Life without its source will die. That's why life always suffers under the rule of false gods. It's human ignorance to consider natural disaster as an act of god. No, it's simply part of the earthly life. All we need to do is to learn to deal with it." @brze: "On 6 Jan 2007 06:58:17 -0800, "Read The Bible" <email_address> wrote: <quote> No, I disagree. The truth of the Bible is always self-evident to those who have found it. Those who can not and will not look for the truth will have nothing regardless whether they are of God or not." @brze: "On Sat, 6 Jan 2007 17:01:51 +1100, "Andrew W" <quote> The path of my spiritual journey has been laid down many years ago. It's not something that happened last night. No, I don't think the truth can be used to help the world. The world is corrupt. It's hopeless. I believe the truth can be used to help the people of the world to create a new world." @brze: "On 6 Jan 2007 04:24:01 -0600, bob young <email_address> wrote: <quote> The truth has always been there for all to see. It's because of the deception of the devil and the illusion of sin, we became the spiritual blind by sinning. To a spiritual blind, of course there is nothing to see, but that doesn't mean the truth of God doesn't exist." @brze: "On 6 Jan 2007 07:14:45 -0800, "Read The Bible" <email_address> wrote: <quote> Therefore, you have made yourself as blind as Paul the Christian killer, and as foolish as Abraham who was willing to kill his own son in fear of the devil pretending to be God. Is that what you are trying to say? snip" @bilsgrdn: ""% -*- Truth -*- %" <email_address> wrote in message news:<email_address> <quote> No, the web page is quite even-handed...but you knew that. And secondly, the evidence to back up the claim is in that website, you just don't happen to agree with it, knucklehead! Shalom, Bill" @noway: "On Sat, 6 Jan 2007 18:51:20 +1100, "Andrew W" <email_address> claimed: <quote> No son, that's your forte. I simply don't allow people to make claims and then think that pointing to some biased web page is proof. Truth is what matters and it is the Truth that will set you free!" @noway: "On Sat, 06 Jan 2007 14:11:21 GMT, "SheBlewHimDidYouBlowHim" <email_address> claimed: <quote> What I believe in, is irrelevant to my comment. The fact is, you're a hypocrite and you know it. Truth is what matters and it is the Truth that will set you free!" @The_Sage: "<quote> No, I disagree. The blatent contradictory and false nature of the Bible is always evident to those who know simple logic. Those who cannot and will not face those facts are not very intelligent. Those who love God will keep His commandents. Here are some of those commandments you must keep: "And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee...And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast [it] from thee" (Matt 5:29-30) "If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple" (Luk 14:26) "Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away" (Mat 5:42) "They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover" (Mark 16:18) "Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?" (1Cr 11:14) "We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not" (1Jo 5:18) So let's see how many so-called Christians keep God's commandments: 1) Number of Xians missing a right eye or right hand? Zero 2) Number of Xians that hate their family and their life? Zero 3) Number of Xians that have given away their house, car, or paycheck? Zero 4) Number of Xians that have taken up serpents or poison and still lived to tell about it? Zero. 5) Number of Xians that don't have short hair? A few. 6) Number of Xians that sinneth not? Zero. The Sage ============================================================= <url> "All those painted screens erected by man to shut out reality history, religion, duty, social position all were illusions, mere opium fantasies" John Fowles, The French Lieutenant's Woman =============================================================" @brze: "On Sat, 06 Jan 2007 18:17:27 -0700, The_Sage <email_address> wrote: <quote> There is nothing wrong to call a spade a spade, but it would be very wrong to think it's nothing but a spade. If you do that, you are still far away from the truth." @removethis_ajwerner: ""Read The Bible" <email_address> wrote in message news:<email_address> <quote> Yeah like one building is going to threaten the safety of the planet. Why isn't he stopping any buildings today from going up? The Bible god just hates seeing humans cooperating with each other and doing something creative. Microorganisms and insects are not animals. Exactly. Carnivores eat a lot every day. It would have only lasted a few days. Creative guesses it seems is all you have to these questions. How about the carnivores? We're not interested in pure speculation. Taking of genetic material from rib is reference to cloning. Eve was part clone. God only knew how to create one human. What was satan doing in the pristine paradise? Someone needs to study early medicine. Did it help? No. Prove that the children were all evil. Don't be ridiculous. Genesis says that the sun, moon and stars were created after. All things come from God. Evil could have had no other source. Any priest could have written that. *Loving* Creators do not charge ransoms, and do not accept blood as currency. Pious poetry. Andrew W. Jesus said that we must search everywhere for the truth. How naive and foolish is the man who thinks he can get all the answers to life from one convenient book. What we are told God and Jesus said, they did not say. <url> TABLE OF CONTENTS. Must read! <url> The true Creator wants us to be happy and abundant. <url> Audio version. <url> Think you know what ego is? Think again. The Bible is full of it! <url> Religion Exposed! <url> " @bilsgrdn: ""Eric Brze" <email_address> wrote in message news:<email_address> <quote> Don't think so, pal. Put any given truth in front of ten different people scattered around the globe, and you'll get ten different viewpoints of that truth. Shalom, Bill " @bilsgrdn: ""% -*- Truth -*- %" <email_address> wrote in message news:<email_address> <quote> Well, more than a couple of posters on this thread have told you in so many words that you have your head up your ass, so your name-calling, innuendos and character attacks on me don't carry a helluva lot of weight. You've ceased to be much fun, so I'm kinda glad to be rid of you. Shalom, Bill" @noway: "On Sat, 6 Jan 2007 16:21:04 -0800, "Wild Bill" <email_address> claimed: <quote> How can I "agree with it"? It's a collection of writings. You somehow think that's proof of your claims? What're you, on glue?! And furthermore, what would make you think that I would search through thousands of documents looking for what you might consider to be worth something? Are you really that stupid? The reality is, you ran out of gas and tried to bury me in some web page and where you're stupidity came in, was in thinking that I would be stupid enough to think that was a real response. But let's use your logic. Here's proof that I'm right. <url> Don't worry, it's in there somewhere. You just have to dig for it. <chuckle> You have wasted enough of my time. Truth is what matters and it is the Truth that will set you free!" @brze: "On 6 Jan 2007 22:49:03 -0600, bob young <email_address> wrote: <quote> Yes, it's common sense to take an earthquake as an earthquake. It's human ignorance to take a natural disaster as an act of god. I'm glad we agree with each other. Not everything that happens in this world is the result of God allowing it. Sin for example is something God never allows, yet people still sin everyday. The habit of blaming God whenever bad thing happens only shows human ignorance. Love is not just a human trait. Love is the work of God. Just because bad things do happen in this world, doesn't mean the love of God has ever failed." @brze: "On Sun, 07
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