@junk: "Hi,
There have been quite a few discussion regarding cheap PCB/Schematic
layout packages recently. What package(s) are considered the best if
money is no object ? What features does this/these package(s) have
that are not available in the cheaper PCB/Schematic packages ?
What packages are used to do the layout of these new generation ultra
compact cell phones and other high volume consumer products ?
Regards
   Anton Erasmus"
    @vinger4: ""Anton Erasmus" <email_address> schreef in bericht
news:<email_address>
<quote>
I have experienced very expensive en powerfull packages like ORCAD en
ULTIBOARD.
But eagle is a cheap one (<url> and can make
wonders."
    @1: "I don't know about phones but I know people like Wind River use PowerPCB &
Blaze Router from Mentor.
I suspect the major difference would be rules base routing. i.e. it's
possible to say these 2 traces have to run next to each other, have to have
a certain clearance, have to have a certain time delay, have to have a
certain impedance. etc
Also more than 4 layer routing, split or mixed plane, and other things like
design for test and design for manufacturing.
Spectra is also a very big name in autorouting.
A decent spec on these systems is generally in the tens of thousands of
dollars.
news:<email_address>
<quote>"
    @noone: "<quote>
One thing it can't do (without screwing up the DRC) is holes in a PAD. 
I am using a small regulator that requires heat spreaders on the top and
bottom of the board connected by vias directly under the thermal pad on
the bottom of the package.  I know this is not normal, but TI recommends
it.  I was never able to get rid of the DRC errors this produced."
    @noone: "<quote>
I am not trying to make a thermal.  I am trying to make a fairly large
rectangular pad with six holes (vias) in it.  The entire rectangle needs
to have the solder mask removed from it.  I guess I could have split the
pad up into six equal, rectangular areas as pads.  But they should be
touching and I don't think I can get this past the DRC either unless I
allow everything to touch.  I believe I have object spacing set for 10
mil at the moment.  
Or could I use a polygon to open up an area in the solder mask?  I did
not try much in that area."
    @noone: "<quote>
By George!  That did it!  I can draw a rectangle on the tStop layer to
open up some copper around the six pads.  I already found somewhere that
you can put the same name on multiple pads by adding a $ or # or
something similar to the name.  So I could use six pads inside a solder
mask rectangle to add these to the part.  
However, there are still four more vias that are outside this pad area
that need a surface plane which is under solder mask.  I believe adding
a rectangle to the copper layer of a part causes problems because it
does not have the signal name.  Or maybe a rectangle does not need a
name?  But will that cause other problems such as a copper pour leaving
a gap around it?  
The part according to TI should be like this...
  +-+
  |    +-+    |
  | O  | o   o   o |  O |
  |    |           |    |
  |    |           |    |
  | O  | o   o   o |  O |
  |    +-+    |
  +-+
The inner rectangle has no solder mask and six 0.013" vias.  The outer
rectangle has solder mask and 0.018" vias.  I don't see how to do the
outer ones."
    @tilmannreh: "Ralph Malph schrieb:
<quote>
Sorry, I really can't see your problem here.
EAGLE does not support extended pad shapes in packages without
DRC complaints, but you can draw about anything directly in your
board (most often using polygons makes sense) with perfect match
of specifications and DRC. However, you can include non-copper
objects (like stop mask) in the package definition.
I have written about this several times in eagle.support.eng,
I thought you had noticed that.
Dipl.-Ing. Tilmann Reh
Autometer GmbH Siegen - Elektronik nach Ma�.
<url>
==================================================================
In a world without walls and fences, who needs Windows and Gates ?
(Sun Microsystems)"
    @kaytastroph: "Ralph,
try to use polygones. Don't forget to give it/them the right signal name. If
the signal name (e.g. GND) is the same for different polygones or Vias,
Eagle will connect them together ( or tries it). I hope it helps you....
...kay
"Ralph Malph" <email_address> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:<email_address>
<quote>
PAD.
and
on
recommends
small pad
DRC"
    @noone: "I *am* using polygons.  The problem is with the vias that need to be
added.  I have to do this manually on the board rather than once in the
package.  
<quote>"
    @tilmannreh: "Ralph Malph schrieb:
<quote>
Agreed, this topic is already on our wishlist.
But currently, the described method is the only one that is
DRC-clean, and normally there are not too many of those packages
on each board.
Dipl.-Ing. Tilmann Reh
Autometer GmbH Siegen - Elektronik nach Ma�.
<url>
==================================================================
In a world without walls and fences, who needs Windows and Gates ?
(Sun Microsystems)"
    @usenet: "<quote>
If you are a full-time PCB designer, and not a circuit designer, then 
Altium may be a good choice.  If PCB design is something you do 
occasionally, then stay away, it's far too complicated and you need to 
re-learn everything you've forgotten every time you use it.
Cheers
Syd"
    @mborgerson: "<email_address> says...
<quote>
My biggest issue with Eagle is that I have a terrible time getting other
people's schematics to print out properly on a B/W laser printer.  The
colored lines and text look like crap and are nearly illegible on
an 8.5x11" printout.  (This may be a user-education fault on my part.) 
I often run into this problem when printing out schematics for the
boards from Olimex.
I use PADS Logic, Layout, and Router from  Mentor Graphics.  The 
original package was about $4K for the basic setup.  You can add
some features for extra bucks.  It only autoroutes two layerss
at the level I have, but that's fine since I don't do boards with
more than 4 layerstwo of which are usually ground and power planes.   
The printouts look good too.  The colored stuff gets converted
to B/W in a way that keeps things legible.
Mark Borgerson"
    @davidbrown: "<quote>
I've got no comments about the quality of the software or its 
suitability for the job, but if you are happy spending $4K on the 
software then surely you also have the budget for an A3 colour printer?"
    @mborgerson: "says...
<quote>
What?  You mean it's only available on Linux?  (That's the only 
PC OS I can think of that seems to have been developed as a hobby.)
   ;-)
On a more serious note,  I don't think the OS hosting a professional
tool is much of an issue as long as the developers know how to 
use the OS to support their tool.   If money is no object, you
can alway get a new computer with the OS required and use
your other computers to handle your Non-PCB stuff.
If you're going to do any large projects, you will probably want
two monitors-one for the schematic and one for the
PCB layout.  That greatly reduces the window swapping as you revise
pin connections etc.
Mark Borgerson"
    @mborgerson: "<email_address> says...
<quote>
I've got a color laser printer-the color printout is better,
but still less readable than B&W.
I wish that people who put out schematics as PDF documents would
offer a B&W version.  The color PDF schematics are also 
illegible.
Mark Borgerson"
    @mborgerson: "<email_address> says...
<quote>
I got the PADS software long before I had a color laser printer.  As I
said, the nice thing about PADS is that it produces  good B&W output.
I've just found out that EAGLE will also do B&W outputand I wish that
people who put schematics into PDFs would use that option.
As for the PADS cost, it was part of a consulting contract.  I didn't
plan to do color prints, so I didn't add a color printer to the
contract.
Mark Borgerson"
    @mborgerson: "says...
<quote>
Good point.  I use a second computer with a single monitor  for the, 
emails and web browsing.   The two computers are on two sides
of an "L" on my bench, so I can just swivel my chair and move about
a foot to type on the other keyboard. 
I can usually get by with two monitors for the PCB layout stuff.
By the time I get to the layout stage, I'm pretty much past the
data sheet stage.  It generally works out as schematics on
one monitor and data sheets and web on the other.  At the layout
stage it is layout on the larger (24") monitor and schematic
on the 21" monitor.
With even 1920x1080 24" monitors being under $200, there's no reason
not to have at least two.  If you want more than two, you
may need a second graphics card in the PC.
Mark Borgerson"
    @davidbrown: "<quote>
I have two machines at work too - a Linux system with two monitors for 
doing most of my work, and a Windows one with a single monitor for 
legacy stuff (including Altium, though I don't do much with it).
Always go for 1920x1200 if you can - the extra vertical pixels are 
invaluable for most purposes other than watching films.  I used to like 
a 1600x1200 monitor for a second (or third) monitor, simply because they 
don't take up as much desk space and you don't need so much horizontal 
pixel space for email or a web browser (though vertical space is 
essential).  But the price of such monitors has gone through the roof in 
recent years.
2560x1440 monitors are getting much cheaper now too, and are great for 
design work or programming - I am very happy with the one I margaretweiss@example.com."
    @mborgerson: "<email_address> says...
<quote>
I wonder if you could turn a 19" monitor on its side and get the OS
to swap the axes.  Phones and tablets do that-why not computer
monitors.  Radius or somebody used to make a monitor with a swiveling
stand so that the display better matched paper pages.  Now most
software just gives you the option to see two pages side-by-side.
Those larger monitors are still 3  to 4 times the cost of the 23 and 
24" monitors.   If I were doing boards larger than 3x5", I would 
probably get one in spite of the cost premium.
Mark Borgerson"
    @speffSNIP: "On Fri, 4 Jan 2013 13:09:37 -0800, Mark Borgerson
<quote>
30" monitors are quite affordable these days.. $999 Cdn. on sale for
the Dell UltraSharp. Three would be nice.. 2560 x 1600 each. "
    @jonk: "On Fri, 04 Jan 2013 16:50:20 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
<quote>
<url>
Cripes. The Canadian dollar must be worth a lot. I'm seeing
USD1399 at the above link. And no sale price on it.
Jon"
    @jonk: "On Fri, 04 Jan 2013 13:50:51 -0800, Jon Kirwan
<quote>
If this link doesn't wrap everywhere in the post:
<url>
I see that this store offers margaretweiss@example.com.
Jon"
    @robertwessel2: "On Fri, 4 Jan 2013 13:09:37 -0800, Mark Borgerson
<quote>
In Windows, it's a function of the video card or device driver.  And
usually the utilities that come with the video card will provide that
function.  Usually you can right-click the desktop, and find those
controls somewhere under there."
    @speffSNIP: "On Fri, 04 Jan 2013 13:50:51 -0800, Jon Kirwan
<quote>
Only worth a bit more (but buys less generally) than a USD. Boxing day
sale seems to be over now, but it goes on for 999 a couple times a
year. It's CAD 1399 at the moment. 
Prices _were_: 
23" - $179
24"- $249
27"-$699
30"-$999
Optimum pixels or in^2 per dollar is THREE of one of the first two,
pivoted to vertical. Not counting what the video card(s) might do to
your wallet. "
    @speffSNIP: "On Fri, 4 Jan 2013 22:14:44 +0000 (UTC), Grant Edwards
<quote>
Unfortunately, they don't often offer that option with monitors larger
than about 24". "
    @Asgard24: "<quote>
I used P-CAD for many years and dumped them when Altium bought it out 
and turned it into Protel.  
I have been very happy with Zuken, especially their customer support."
    @robertwessel2: "On Fri, 04 Jan 2013 17:40:00 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
<quote>
Most (all?) monitors have provisions for mounting screws - usually
four threaded holes in a rectangle on the back.  Just like most (all?)
TVs.
You'd think that in c.a.e needing a sideways monitor stand would be
more an invitation to haul out some tools than an actual problem...
;-)"
    @mborgerson: "<quote>
While money may not be a constraint, complete control of the
board design process may be on the list.  You lose a lot
of that control when you farm out the board layout. 
Mark Borgerson"
    @ham789: "<quote>
While I can't argue with your statement, I suggest that anybody
asking such a vague question is unlikely to do a better layout
job than someone experienced with the types of designs being
implemented and the tools to do so.
"Money is no object" is a clue that the OP is clueless."
    @mborgerson: "<quote>
I've worked with companies that were very reluctant to farm
out design work for security reasons.  Sometimes managers
have to decide whether to hire a new layout person or whether
the current employee would be more productive with different
tools.
However, I'm not sure that the person posting the request is the
person who will be doing the layout.  Or, it could be a
person with years of experience with a low-end program has
finally convinced a manager that a better program would
improve productivity.
I generally don't like to make assumptions about the
skill levels of people who request information here.
If they say that they are beginners, that's one thing.
To assume it without explicit evidence can be risky.
For all I know it could be a designer with 5 years of
Altium experience who is pissed off at some foible of
that system.  Money may be no object because they've
already spent a bunch and have more to spend if they
are convinced it would be worthwhile.
I do think that "money is no object" may be a less
than perfect description of the situation.  I would
have said "software cost is not a factor".
Mark Borgerson"
    @paul: "says...
<quote>
Dont understand "money" well some of my custoers dont :)
Paul Carpenter          | <email_address>
<<url>    PC Services
<<url> Timing Diagram Font
<<url>  GNU H8 - compiler & Renesas H8/H8S/H8 Tiny
<<url> For those web sites you hate"
    @speffSNIP: "On Sat, 05 Jan 2013 01:55:41 -0600, the renowned Robert Wessel
<quote>
Yup. VESA 
<url>
Nothing a few hundred extra dollars won't solve.. eg. Ergotron. 
Of course it's possible to hack something together, especially if you
have a bunch of 80/20 lying around. 
<url>
I wonder what happens when you put a screw that's too long into the
mounting holes. Probably nothing good. 
Best regards, 
Spehro Pefhany
"it's the network..."                          "The Journey is the reward"
<email_address>             Info for manufacturers: <url>
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  <url>"
    @root: "<quote>
/me scratches head
First time I've seen Windows referred to as a hobby OS.
<url>
Are you looking for Linux support? some other Unix variant?
Regards."
    @gnuarm: "<quote>
I can't say I don't enjoy my work, but it is still work.  If I could 
make money paying other people to work, I would do that in a 
heartbeat... that actually sounds like a good idea.  I'll call that 
"running a company"!  Brilliant!  I just need to patent the idea.
I understand the concept, but I believe it is an oxymoron, no?
Rick"
    @ham789: "<quote>
Most people with a cellphone or an iAnything are behaving
like they have excess money.
Many people who were taught to plan ahead have excess money.
Don't know anything about oxy, but the rest is relevant. ;-)"
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