@laury: "Hubby has actual influenza. We had to visit his doc in the big city, and 
decided, since he's pretty tough, to visit a dealership while in town.
Verdict: TR is absolutely correct: carshopping sucks so much we're willing 
to pay more just not to have to deal with annoying car salesmen. (ours 
actually lied to us.. twoi times... a kiss of death in this car shopping 
market... moron... but we could have told you that 2 minutes after meeting 
him).
We have an offer 2.5K less than Kelly Blue Book value... but we caught him 
in 2 lies, and don't trust him enough to seal the deal. Next week we'll head 
out again, after hubby has had 15 dosages of antibiotics, to look again.
Laury
PS had salesman not been so bad, we might have bought. "
    @Jo: ""Laury" <email_address> wrote in message 
news:Bn1pl.25863$<email_address>
<quote>
Laury,
don't buy American !!!!  Honda and Toyota are the best cars for the best 
price....period. "
    @mtbc: ""Jo Baggs" <email_address> writes:
<quote>
I'd expand that to Subaru too. I haven't yet been disappointed by
Japanese cars in general. I am sometimes annoyed at how Japan, then
Europe, tend to get the cars I want, before we do here. Then again, even
American makes I have difficulty with sometimes - at one point I'd have
considered the Ford Falcon but I don't want to think about the
difficulty of importing and using an Australian one.
Mind you, I was amused to see some derivative of the Nissan Cube
appearing at the latest LA auto show. I was also amused to hear that
Fiat's eyeing the North American market again - I did like my Panda!
Mark"
    @PeterGriffin: "<quote>
Absolutely DO buy American - Honda.  Ours have been simply outstanding 
(Accord - Ohio & Pilot - Alabama, both with about 70% US/Canadian parts 
- just a bit under the 75% typical for the Detroit vehicles).   Minimal 
routine maintenance - even the tires went 100k (excellent suspension) on 
both.  Definitely cheaper in the long run (200k+ is easily 
attainable).   The Pilot is at 100k and the Accord  at 175k still drive 
quietly with an excellent suspension.  
If buying new, don't overlook quotes via internet, but don't assume 
internet pricing is the lowest.   Herb Chambers (newspaper ad) beat my 
best internet quote by nearly $1k.  Also, don't assume buying Honda  
means paying a premium over dealer cost.    (Even though we bought the 
Pilot in Seekonk, Majestic gladly  does the routine maintenance.)   An 
Accord may cost a bit more than a Malibu up front, but they have 
historically beat Malibu on long term cost."
    @laury: ""clams_casino" <email_address> wrote in message 
news:hbapl.18104$<email_address>
<quote>
I did a lot of research before choosing a car. The Malibu is comparable in 
size and appointments to the Camry or Accord, got top ratings in reliability 
and quality, and of course is thousands less. Check it out.... you will be 
surprised. It drives quiet and smooth, lots of pep, decent mileage.
As we were leaving the dealership yesterday the salesman actually chased us 
to slash another 2K off the "last offer" for the used one. Of course that 
left us with the overall feeling that they'd been screwing with us all 
along. I wish they sold cars the way they sold cans of soup.
Next week (we are working day and night this week) we will go to the 
dealership where my boss just bought his (I was actually already researching 
this car before he even bought his... he came to the same conclusion we 
did). He felt well-treated there and of course we know what he paid for his 
so that ought to cut down on the bull quite a bit.
Laury"
    @PeterGriffin: "<quote>
As I mentioned, a Malibu might be up to a few thousand dollars cheaper 
up front, but history shows the Accord (and Camry) will likely maintain 
a superior trade-in value and will likely last a lot longer with fewer 
repairs -  could be (will most likely be) substantially cheaper in the 
long run.
I guess a lot comes down to risk tolerance.   At best, they might be 
close to / catching up in quality.  Can you trust them (this time).  
Historically, there is no comparison."
    @Jo: ""clams_casino" <email_address> wrote in message 
news:hbapl.18104$<email_address>
<quote>
Clams,
allow me to correct my comment.  Change my comment to read: "Do not buy UAW 
cars."  You are correct.  Honda and Toyota cars built in the US by non-UAW 
workers are superior in both quality and re-sale value.  By their own 
admission the UAW concedes that their quality has slipped over the years. 
That's ok UAW, take a couple weeks off with full pay. "
    @laury: ""Thomas Reynolds" <email_address> wrote in message 
news:xJdpl.1599$<email_address>
<quote>
And there are no guarantees. I know someone who had a horrible experience 
with the Accord and eventually invoked the Lemon Law.
Laury "
    @PeterGriffin: "<quote>
Of course, it will be another 10-15 years before any firm conclusion can 
be made whether the current Malibu has suddenly caught up / is 
approaching Accord & Camry quality. .
Reminds me of the McCain promises - Granted the Bush policies have 
failed miserably over the past eight years, but this time (enacting the 
same policies) it'll be different - trust me.
There's a lot of risk there, not even considering the rumors GM  may not 
even be around in ten years.
Now if someone prefers the styling / ride of a Malibu, I can see why 
they would go in that direction.   If (long term) cost / quality is a 
concern,  Malibu takes on way too much risk."
    @laury: ""Thomas Reynolds" <email_address> wrote in message 
news:lFjpl.1611$<email_address>
<quote>
She had to go to court to get them to comply... I think she ended up out 
quite a bit of money due to the legal battle. Honda certainly did not step 
up to the plate in the interest of customer relations or legal prudence, for 
that matter.
Laury "
    @PeterGriffin: "<quote>
I should have filed  suit on my second to last GM product (bought one 
more before the nightmare hit).   Rack and pinion steering went out at 
53k (it was dealer tuned up at 48k with no reports of steering 
problems).   They had a recall up to 50k and refused any fault.   Car 
totally died at 65k where the engine totally broke down - most expensive 
vehicle I've ever owned on a mileage basis.
GM won by not contributing to their defective vehicle, but  of course, 
I've  purchased  five non GM vehicles since  where I'm sure our children 
will never buy one either (actually, they convinced me to buy Honda 
after their reports of their friend's families reporting Accords & 
Civics going 200-400k miles vs. the typical 120-150k miles for GM products).
My brothers-in-law are still GM purchasers, but I'm not sure they've 
ever had one last more than 150k.  Most have been junked about 125k.   
They typically point to the $1-2k initial savings claiming 
trade-in-value doesn't mean anything to them, but failing to understand 
real cost is dollars / total mileage.
It seems those who switch never look back.   Those that don't seem to 
have any idea what real quality is about."
    @laury: ""clams_casino" <email_address> wrote in message 
news:3jwpl.21551$<email_address>
<quote>
I'll let you know how it goes.
Laury "
    @mtbc: ""Laury" <email_address> writes:
<quote>
(snip)
Now I'm wondering who these days has those deals where they wash your
car for free when you stop back by the dealership. I think I remember
Saturn (hence GM) did for a while, not that I tried it out when my wife
had a Saturn. Once when sitting in an Infiniti dealership who offered
that, they'd look around for whoever answered to the owner's name to
return the keys to them afterward, and I wondered how easy it would be
to just wait until nobody answered immediately and drive off in their
car.
We had an Oldsmobile years ago, but I don't think I've had direct
interaction with a GM dealership, and with Ford I've only really gone to
buy parts I guess.
Mark"
    @laury: ""Mark T.B. Carroll" <email_address> wrote in message 
news:<email_address>
<quote>
I've had two Buick Le Sabres the past 12 years. LOVE them... giant rolling 
Barcoloungers I once heard them called. Can't say what Buick service is like 
because I never had a problem under warranty, and have a very good mechanic 
of my own.
But the nearest car dealership, any brand, to my house, is 13 miles. By the 
time I drive there, get it washed, and get back home it would be just as 
dirty, IMO. I also confess that I actually like washing and waxing my car. 
As a teen I spent many late Saturday afternoons outside with my dad, washing 
and waxing the cars, and even changing the oil (neither of us does it 
ourselves anymore) and rotating the tires... now that goes back quite a 
ways. While I was doing that my brother was learning how to iron creases 
into his trousers and make Mom's lasagna... my parents believed that all 
people needed the skills to be able to take care of themselves. And of 
course discussing all the important issues of the world while we worked... 
that is the best part.
Laury"
    @mtbc: ""Laury" <email_address> writes:
<quote>
I rented a Buick Century once - I liked that. (I like only a minority of
cars I rent.) Never driven a Le Sabre though.
Of course, in winter when it's below freezing outside and your car is
covered with salt streaks with plenty of salt underneath, other options
may be preferable. (-:
Admittedly, partly I use car washes because the kids are still little
and they find the whole experience cool and exciting - I try to wait to
wash until I can bring at least one of them along!
Mmm ... I guess I avoid it a little now with my parents where I don't
want to disappoint them with some of my views! For instance, I suspect
my mother, as a Christian, may be a little sad that I don't share that
belief.
Mark"
    @laury: ""Thomas Reynolds" <email_address> wrote in message 
news:UB_pl.94$%<email_address>
<quote>
That's where my boss bought his, and we are headed there onTuesday. Can't be 
much worse than the last guy, but certainly hoping for a whole lot better... 
he was pleased.
My parents bought two new cars in the space of two months (retirement 
vehicles). Very different taste in cars, two different dealers. My dad 
signed two pieces of paper, and drove off in his new car (which they had 
already registered for him) in less than 10 minutes, including posing for a 
picture as he got in his car, which was later mailed to him, nicely framed. 
My mother was at her dealer's for 2 hours. If they took her picture I'm sure 
she'd be giving them the New York salute.
Laury "
    @kd1snospam: "<email_address> says...
<quote>
I know that the guys at Car Talk pretty much tell you to bank about $600 
to $800 a year for maintenance on vehicles. 
Do that and you'll more than likely get way more than 200K miles out of 
a Honda, Toyota or Nissan. The biggest issues with most cars is the 
timing belt. Snap that and kiss the engine goodbye since bent valves 
aren't fun. Replace them according to the owners manual and you'll be 
able to drive the sucker forever. 
Try that with a Chevy. I think the upper max on those even with good 
maintenance is 200K miles. 
Here's the thing, durings years one through three you'll bank anywhere 
from $1,800 to $2,400. Then when major things go wrong you've got the 
cash to pay for it. 
People really don't take into account how very expensive a car is or at 
least they grudgingly accept it. 
Between taxes, insurance upkeep and fuel cars suck a lot of money. "
    @kd1snospam: "<email_address> says...
<quote>
The one thing that manufacturers like GM, Ford and Chrysler have is a 
wealth of people who know how to fix them. Not to mention wide spread 
availability of parts. "
    @kd1snospam: "<quote>
Interesting. Everything I know I pretty much learned on my own and that 
includes how to replace water pumps, head gaskets, etc.
I remember my father freaking out that I was replacing the brakes on my 
Mercury when I was a kid. Dear old dad hadn't made the cognitive jump 
that every Saturday and Sunday morning I worked on my car and friends 
cars in a local garage. Learned the trade from the mechanic at that 
garage and I have to say it was well worth it. 
As far as cooking goes, I had the general idea. Just had to make 
improvements over time. "
    @kd1snospam: "<quote>
I used to get regular grief from my father about the religion thing, or 
the lack thereof. 
I recall one conversation that he started with "You never believed in 
God." Couldn't deny that one. 
It's ok though, I managed to find out his Preacher was using racists 
tracts in his sermons. "
    @kd1snospam: "@verizon.net says...
<quote>
For a couple of months back a year or so ago I was driving a 1980 Ford 
Crown Vic. I likened it to driving a marshmallow. "
    @mtbc: "T <email_address> writes:
<quote>
My dad taught himself a lot of stuff like that too. (His own father was
career Navy, which back then meant hardly ever around.)
(snip)
I think probably my mom's cooking helped me in that I came away with
memories of what stuff looks like when it's going right! But, to be
honest, most of my cooking I kind of make up as I go along, and I tend
to try different things, so some things I kind of have to figure out how
to repair halfway through, and most don't turn out quite how I expected.
It's still fun though.
Mark"
    @propp: "news:<email_address>
<quote>
One of my first cars as a teen was a used '75 4D sedan, Pontiac Catalina.
Big boat. I used to joke I had a 'Catty'.
"You have a Caddy?"
"Yeah, I have a Catty" <S>"
    @laury: ""Mark T.B. Carroll" <email_address> wrote in message 
news:<email_address>
<quote>
My brother enlisted in the Marines at 19, and said the reason he rose in 
rank so quickly is because our mother taught him how to iron and make his 
bed properly. :)
After the Marines he became a firefighter, where cooking is taken very, very 
seriously. So he ended up using skills Mom taught him more than those Dad 
taught him, for the most part. This past summer I worked side by side with 
my husband painting the exterior of our house, so Dad saved me a bundle, 
too. Although he no longer repairs his own cars he still washes and waxes 
them because he thinks car washes scratch the finish.
Laury "
    @mtbc: ""Laury" <email_address> writes:
<quote>
In college dorms I found that ironing in the communal laundry room was a
good way to meet women. (-:
Yes - with my last car, I kept to touchless car washes only, not that
they always did quite good enough a job.
Mark"
    @propp: "<quote>
Was he a firefighter in the USMC(there is an MOS; they work in support
squadrons on the flight lines)? In HI I had a friend whose barracks was
right next to a support squadron's; we'd occasionally play poker with a
few who were firefighters and SARs(search & rescue)...fresh blood, but
then again they probably thought the same of us. They had the best game on
base, the other being Truck Co.(ya just can't have a civil game at a
regiment; everyone's ready to kill each other after 2 hours<S>).
Good bunch, very rowdy without being stupid about it..."
    @propp: "news:<email_address>
<quote>
That ain't gonna happen in the Marine Corps; you don't wanna meet most
WM's :-)
Best thing is to get yourself a suger-mama off-base with a nice place and
car, then teach her how to iron<G>. And believe me, you do have to
teach...there is a distinct difference between ironing the civilian way,
and the USMC way..
Late add: they do. Exactly the reason car detailers have gained their
niche. I have a friend near Concord who only lets a place do the
interior...his corvette is his baby, and he still hand washes and
melts-out his own paste wax and applies/buffs out by hand...sometimes
he'll pay some guys on work-release, but only if he's there to supervise
every moment."
    @kd1snospam: "<email_address> says...
<quote>
And what's the national average right now, about 15,000 right? So that's 
$7,500 a year, or $144 a week. "
    @laury: ""P" <email_address> wrote in message 
news:gofb8l$elq$<email_address>
<quote>
Nope, he was a paratrooper and a radioman the first year or so, stationed on 
The Rock and training in PI, then they sent him to Quantico to train on 
computers (early 80s... great skill to have at the time). After he came home 
he landed a computer job immediately but always wanted since childhood to be 
a fireman. He followed up on all the state FDs that were hiring at the time 
and landed a job within the year. Former military had a couple of 
advantages: first you're in top physical condition when you get out, and 
second, you get points on your written exam for being former military.
Laury "
    @propp: "news:Ge_ql.11619$<email_address>
<quote>
Did he like Okinawa? You'd be surprised how many dread the rock...but I
always thought it's best to get it all over with early. Then again, I
always wanted to be as far away from the East Coast as possible. I was
never stationed on Okinawa, but I've been to and thru a than a few times.
I did a WestPac early on, then later a fly-away(ask your bro; they don't
do now but they did in the '80s) spend most between Okinawa, PI, Thailand,
all before my first enlistment was up.
I always wondered why there'd be so much anticipation among some when they
sweated overseas orders. Was he ANGLICO? The USMC doesn't have 'airborne'
units per say(like the army) but many MOS's require airborne wings/jump
school..especially in the FSSG's(field service support groups attached to
the divisions). Before I got out, I toyed with a lat move to intel or
'Scampy'..the former probably would've required jump school, the latter
definitely would've..
BTW, comm doesn't like to be called 'radioman'...the prefer 'operator' or
communicator...depending on if they hump the equipment or work in a comm
center/shack.<G> They're picky about that.."
    @laury: ""P" <email_address> wrote in message 
news:goin42$20c$<email_address>
<quote>
My sense is that he didn't really care where he was, it was all about being 
a Marine. He was in Okinawa when he was 19. Not too many of us can 
appreciate foreign culture at the age of 19. I was the point man for the 
family... remember back then hearing from home meant someone used paper and 
a pen. I wrote him every week and every month his CO sent me a report of all 
the fun camp activities my brother was participating in. Really, the guy was 
so nice and a natural comedian. He sent me a picture of my brother crossing 
the finish line, winning some type of jungle marathon. He looked 99% dead. 
He does not have a runner's build, more a hockey player build (which he 
was). My mother cried but we pointed out that the ability to run far and 
fast is probably a good thing for a soldier. My brother's letters were all 
about the training.
The PI was for mountain warfare training. He had to jump out of the plane 
wearing not only his regular pack but also the radio, called a buttpack, I 
think. I know radioman is not the correct technical term. I just don't 
remember exactly what was. I guess someone thought he had an aptitude for 
technical stuff and off he went to VA.
Then Quantico, where you go to Le Jeune for your field stuff. Even though he 
spent 3 years there he still had to rotate out for regular Marine combat 
training and stuff. He never had another overseas posting. He credits the 
Marines with giving him discipline and direction, and I can't argue with 
that. He had the sense to ditch the "high paying skill" and go for what he 
loved. He still loves it and has no plans to retire any time soon. After 3 
years in Quantico it takes him a month to answer an email and he still can't 
text.
Laury "
    @propp: "<quote>
<snip>
Wanna hear something funny? Up until a few years ago, one of the old PI 
training areas had remade itself into an eco-tourist adventure...<S>"
    @laury: ""P" <email_address> wrote in message 
news:gojv58$ifo$<email_address>
<quote>
Hey, were you in Beirut? Originally he was supposed to go to Parris Island. 
At the last minute he and a bunch of others were sent to Pendleton instead. 
The Pendleton guys went to Okinawa. The Parris Island guys went to Beirut 
and were there when the barracks were bombed.  But for a simple twist of 
fate his life could have taken a very different course, or even nicole79@example.net.
I will tell him about the PI eco-adventure next time I see him.
Laury"
    @propp: "news:FRirl.58326$<email_address>
<quote>
No, The Marine peacekeepers in Beirut were out of LeJeune(2nd MarDiv), 6th
Marine Regiment. I was at CamPen(1st MarDiv) at the time with 7th nicole79@example.net they later moved out to 29 Palms.
You mean recruit training @ San Diego..he would've gone to radio operator
school at Pendleton(CamPen).
Well, it's all relative. But no one goes to a deployed unit or
ready-to-deploy, straight out of boot camp. You've got your 'A' school to
complete, first set of orders and additional training to complete, etc.
East or West coast really doesn't have much to do with it(where you went
to boot camp Parris Island or San Diego, or even 'A' school)..I went to
Parris Island, then LeJuene for ITS, then out to CamPen for my 1st duty
station.
Yeah, some of the same negritos that worked at the jungle training area,
were later working as guides for tourists who'd pay 300-500 per day for
their 'Eco" adventure. I wonder if they paid for the pleasure of eating
bugs, snake, and wild chicken<S>.."
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