@dalton: "On my Salmon on the Thorns mystic autobiography page
<url>
I argue that I am similar to some past major pagan
and major non-pagan religious figures including 
Taliesin (Gwion), The Turquoise Bee, and Jesus.
Thus those three figures should be similar to one another.
But the first two are known primarily for their poetry
whereas Jesus is known primarily for his spiritual
messages including some encoded in parables.  So perhaps
the parable was Jesus's specialization that was 
analogous to the poetry of the other two.
But is there any evidence that Jesus may have also
composed some poetry and/or song lyrics?  That
might be more evident in the original languages
of the texts rather than in an English translation.
I expect to enter into a period of productive
creativity when I come out of my low years.  Similarly
perhaps Jesus did become a poet and songwriter after
his "resurrection", but perhaps under another name
that might still be known today.
David Dalton  <email_address>   <url> (home page)
<url> Newfoundland&Labrador Music & Travel
"And now the angry morning; Gives the early signs of warning
You must face alone the plans you make; Decisions they will try to break" SMcL"
    @jull43: "<quote>
	Problem is unless one has swallowed without criticism a huge dose of 
"what it really means" there is no spiritual gomezbrady@example.net. If you look 
for one you can find one but the words themselves have none. (Life is 
like a sewer. What you get out of it depends upon what you put into it. 
So are parables.)
	The other major problem is there is no particular reason to believe 
there was a living person upon whom the gospels are based. So in fact we 
can't really draw any conclusions. Notice Paul seems to know nothing of 
the gospel Jesus, not even his name. The other epistles don't do much 
better.
	For a fact only the most dyed in the wool old time believers still 
credit the gospels as first hand accounts. If the question before the 
court were Did Jesus exist I could call four witnesses, Matthew, Mark, 
Luke and John and use each of their gospels to impeach the other three. 
Where there is disagreement only one can be correct and the others are 
lying. You can say mistaken but their testimony is worthless. Believers 
however like to claim all the unimpeached parts are true and pick 
whichever the four they happen to like for the impeached parts.
The occupation can do no right.
The occupied can do no wrong.
	The Iron Webmaster, 4424
  <url> a9
Wed, Oct 02, 2013  1:34:39 AM"
    @big_mart_98: "<quote>
Keep on doolin', Dalton.
Myth, after all, is what we believe naturally.  History is what we must 
painfully learn and struggle to remember.  -Albert Goldman"
    @nothere: "Le 02/10/2013 07:46, Matt Giwer a �crit :
<quote>
He doesn't know his mother as well, no mention of her in his epistles.
His scribe Luke changed that a little but his gospel still shows a
complete lack of personal meeting and facts in his account of Jesus'
life as well as the life in the early apostolic community (Book of Acts).
"Il y a un mythe du savoir scientifique qui attend de la simple notation
des faits, non seulement la science des choses du monde, mais encore la
science de cette science." - Maurice Merleau-Ponty
<url>
<url>
<url>
<url>"
    @jull43: "<quote>
	It should be obvious the Paul of the epistles and the Paul of Acts are 
not the same person.
If Israel and its lobby were not behind the Iraq war
over Iraq's nuclear weapons program how is it they
are not behind an Iran war over a nuclear weaspons
program?
	 The Iron Webmaster, 4417
  <url> a1
Wed, Oct 02, 2013  9:51:28 PM"
    @jull43: "<quote>
	If anointed were an uncommon title perhaps but the emperors, high 
ranking politicians and major donors to temples were anointed in 
addition to temple priests. It was the same in Judea. It was the same in 
all cities big enough to have temples.
	Yes, anointed is meaningless in this context.
	I must then apologize for the error. There is on mention of his name. 
The problem is most of his discussions are about the 6th c. BC Greek 
concept of Logos not this Jesus.
	One would be more comfortable if there had been mention of the 
teachings of this Jesus, attribution, a few 'Jesus saids' prefacing his 
claims. After the gospels appear preachers like Paul don't seem to be 
able to write two sentences without mentioning his name three times. 
Paul however speaks on his own authority about the Logos not about 
Jesus. The Logos is clearly the Greek concept not a person. Unless of 
course you are into the "what it really means" Sunday School stuff.
A near death experience is god playing
catch and release with your soul.
	 The Iron Webmaster, 4421
  <url> a5
Wed, Oct 02, 2013  9:53:32 PM"
    @jull43: "<quote>
	I will grant it is not important which gospel is lying about what was 
said at the sermon on the plain/mount.
	You may read the descriptions of the discovery of the empty tomb and 
decide which of the three are lying for yourself. If the case were a 
simple bank robbery and the testimony as to who did it was this varied I 
doubt the case would ever be brought to court. There would be different 
robbers, a different number of robbers, a different sequence of events, 
different third party witnesses (aka angels) who did different things 
including a giant angel. Try getting a giant angel testimony admitted in 
court.
	Far from minor the resurrection is the lynchpin for all of Christianity 
and to discover at least three "authoritative sources" are liars gives 
the lie to the entire story. If three are lying, why not all four? Given 
at least three people are lying about this resurrection thing the 
simplest explanation is that all four are lying.
	I guess technically Mark isn't lying because he is silent on a 
resurrection so we have the later addition to Mark and more fluid 
additions to the other gospels meaning we can dismiss the entire 
resurrection thing as a lie told by three liars.
	Of course you can say they were written decades later and memory is 
fallible but then every word of every gospels can be written off as 
senility and Alzheimer's. You can't make up ad hoc excuses for 
everything. Every explanation has to apply to everything else one might 
get the idea one is impervious to facts.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
	 The Iron Webmaster, 4426
  <url> a14
Wed, Oct 02, 2013 10:17:50 PM"
    @dalton: "<quote>
Well, someone must have composed the parables, and thus it
should be OK to define Jesus as that person.   I also
think that person composed the messages of the sermon
on the mount.
Similarly many poems are attributed to Taliesin, but
I think the original Taliesin, Gwion Bach, was the
one who composed the poems I reference in
<url>  .
David Dalton  <email_address>   <url> (home page)
<url> Newfoundland&Labrador Music & Travel
"And now the angry morning; Gives the early signs of warning
You must face alone the plans you make; Decisions they will try to break" SMcL"
    @nothere: "Le 03/10/2013 03:53, Matt Giwer a �crit :
<quote>
The problem is, both versions had a scribe named Luke.
It seems that Luke, after writing his Gospel following more or less Mark
(the shortest and earliest account) tried in the Book of Acts to tie the
gaps between what he wrote in his Gospel (that followed Mark with the
addition of healing miracles and the elision of "in spirit" from the
Beatitudes: "Blessed be the poor", period) and what Paul said of himself
and his so-called experience with the apostolic communities.
"Il y a un mythe du savoir scientifique qui attend de la simple notation
des faits, non seulement la science des choses du monde, mais encore la
science de cette science." - Maurice Merleau-Ponty
<url>
<url>
<url>
<url>"
    @jull43: "<quote>
	IF we assume the gospels are infallible THEN any explanation appears 
credible to believers.
	If we do not bring that assumption then they are obvious nonsense in 
need of no explanation.
The worst mistake Palestinians ever made
was inventing Judaism.
	 The Iron Webmaster, 4430
  <url> a6
Fri, Oct 04, 2013 12:39:56 AM"
    @jull43: "<quote>
	There can be only one truth. If you claim different memories then you 
are at my last conjecture the contents of all of them are due to 
senility and Alzheimer's. Once memories are faulty nothing said is 
trustworthy. When I was a kid the joke was the boy asking, What did you 
do in the war, Daddy. It is amazing how many won it single handedly. Of 
course people were polite and those were not called lies either.
	The absence of substantive agreement is not variation.
	To be honest you have to approach the gospels as though you never heard 
of them or the religion and thus have no expectations or presumptions. 
They have to sell themselves. And you, having no other knowledge, do not 
make excuses or explain away obvious problems. Without preconceptions 
you would not want to believe.
	As I noted, Mark does not. Resurrection was obviously added by someone 
else. Mark remembers no resurrection. That makes Mark the only credible 
narrator and makes the other three liars no matter how you gomezbrady@example.net. 
One cannot misremember what never happened.
	Angels are relevant. If no angels than liars. If trying to sell the 
product like used car salesmen then also liars.
	As to court, I was asked about impeaching then gospels. I did so. Court 
testimony is about facts in evidence.
	You want to believe. You start from the assumption there really was a 
resurrection and then explain away the problems. Yet if you had no 
preconceptions then these stories would be the only thing you had to 
judge whether or not it was a real event.
	You have Mark who testifies there was forgery in his name and knows of 
nothing worth mentioning after burial. You have three others who can't 
get their story straight. You call witnesses from the city and ask if 
they saw dead prophets walking around town. You ask if they saw a giant 
angel.
	You as an unbiased, unprejudiced party would clearly reject the claim 
of resurrection as multiple fantasies or multiple perjurers.
	Please do the same to Alexander and show me how it is any different. I 
know of no one making any extraordinary claim for him like walking on 
water or rising from the dead or healing the sick. If there are any I 
have no problem declaring them liars.
	You can't play the game of trivial versus significant. There can be 
lots of disagreement on trivial things but if on says says he conquered 
Egypt and another says he did not then the latter is lying, not 
mistaken, not suffering a failing memory, no gomezbrady@example.net.
If ego were a weapon Israel would rule the world.
	 The Iron Webmaster, 4436
  <url> a12
Fri, Oct 04, 2013 12:43:00 AM"
    @jull43: "<quote>
	I have no idea when that idea started but I would guess it was no 
earlier than the 5th AD. It would have to be after the Trinity BS was 
solidly gotten entirely different from the original Greek concept. In 
any event you will have to show that idea explicitly in the gospels or 
epistles else you are making it up. It meant no more than the plain 
reading at the time in the context of the times.
	Total gibberish with no relationship to the NT whatsoever.
	I don't chase URLs. If you have an argument to make here then make it 
here.
What we do for ourselves dies with us.
What we do for others lives through all eternity.
	 The Iron Webmaster, 4428
  <url> Antisemitism a10
Fri, Oct 04, 2013  1:11:09 AM"
    @jull43: "<quote>
	I recall making the effort at one time and found only Christ.
	Sorry but Logos is a much older Greek concept. When the Greek wrote the 
old testament then put their Logos idea in the first few lines of 
Genesis. It is not surprising the Christians used it. It is one of those 
words like today people use "spiritual." You need only speak gibberish 
around it and it sounds profound. Throw incarnate together with Logos 
and sounds like it means something.
	Truth is like a river. God is the mouth of that river.  Citizen 
G'Kar, 2262
	One of us is not or perhaps one of us is exaggerating. I'll put a 
review on my to do list if this discussion continues for a while.
What shape were women's bodies before
the hourglass was invented?
	 The Iron Webmaster, 4422
  <url> a6
Fri, Oct 04, 2013  1:18:53 AM"
    @jull43: "<quote>
	Paul convinced Cephias to eat with gentiles by his own argument. In 
Acts there was a miracle about unclean food. The Paul of Acts says he 
learned everything there was to learn.
	The excuse of the Lukes is interesting but one has to assume things can 
be reconciled before one bothers to try. One can as easily assume Pauls.
	You throw in all kinds of believer nonsense when the rational person 
must be convinced from the ground up based solely upon the physical 
evidence. As the only evidence is written one judges it like any other 
claim such as of Apollonius and Mithras and the other Judean Messiahs Of 
The Month Club nominees.
An Iranian bomb is no greater threat than
Palestinian statehood.
	 The Iron Webmaster, 4425
  <url> a11
Fri, Oct 04, 2013  1:31:10 AM"
    @dalton: "<quote>
The horn of oil used by humans to anoint is shaped
like a waning crescent moon (like the waning butter
of Krishna or the waning crescent on Islamic mosques
and flags), and I think represents waning crescent
inspiration similar to what happened to me five
times between September 1991 and September 1994.
I believe that the terms Messiah and Christ, which
both mean anointed one, refer not to a common
anointing by a human but to this special waning
crescent inspiration.   Also the descent of wings
on Jesus (and on me 2.5 days before new moon in
September 1991) can be taken as the descent of 
a dove, which is at least now seen as a sign of
the Holy Spirit.   Thus the incident can be said
to be an anointing by the Holy Spirit, or if
you don't accept that the term Holy Spirit goes
back that far, an anointing by God (though I
consider it an anointing by Sola the sun).
But no doubt you will have a knee jerk/denial
reaction and call that gibberish too, labeling 
me as still insane since you fear what I write
is true, shaking your world.
David Dalton  <email_address>   <url> (home page)
<url> Newfoundland&Labrador Music & Travel
"And now the angry morning; Gives the early signs of warning
You must face alone the plans you make; Decisions they will try to break" SMcL"
    @jull43: "<quote>
	A believer myth is that people used scribes. It was a rare thing. There 
was no one taking dictation. As for eyesight, have you ever seen ancient 
writing life size? Near sighted people get close to the paper to write 
and when they do they write smaller.
	When a person wrote his own letters a signature would have been 
superfluous. It is when a document is in another handwriting that a 
signature means something.
Like the Iraq war over its nuclear weapons program
Israel and Jews are not behind the Iran war either.
	 The Iron Webmaster, 4418
  <url> a6
Fri, Oct 04, 2013  1:38:20 AM"
    @jull43: "<quote>
	That would be like declaring Wagner the creator of the Ring mythology.
	To remind you of Christian doctrine the meaning of the parables was not 
known until after the Holy Spirit some time after his death. So you must 
therefore believe that for all anyone knew at the time of their telling 
he was speaking pure gibberish.
	But for a fact no one knows where the gospels came from or who wrote 
them or when. The first mention of more than one is late mid 2nd c. The 
first mention of gospel is in the singular. And then of course there is 
the issue of changes to them as we see in the last lines of Mark.
	More than that there are the 42 other gospels which were discarded for 
no known reason any more than there is a known reason for picking just 
four except for the idiot argument that there are four winds and such. 
Without specific selection/rejection criteria believers just make up 
reasons as they go along.
	I am presently rewatching the series Babylon 5. There is character 
named Marcus. In one episode the character Ivanova calls him Lucas. In 
this case it is a fan trivia question. Were it the bible there would be 
sermons on why his name was both Marcus and Lucas.
	The bible is like a sewer. What you get out of it depends upon what you 
put into it.
<url>
Made in Alexandria
The Origin of the Yahweh Cult
Only the true Messiah denies his divinity.   Life of Brian
	 The Iron Webmaster, 4433
  <url> a3
Fri, Oct 04, 2013  1:45:58 AM"
    @big_mart_98: "<quote>
Some do, some not.
Myth, after all, is what we believe naturally.  History is what we must 
painfully learn and struggle to remember.  -Albert Goldman"
    @big_mart_98: "<quote>
No, those are the only occurrences.
Myth, after all, is what we believe naturally.  History is what we must 
painfully learn and struggle to remember.  -Albert Goldman"
    @big_mart_98: "<quote>
Crap. On textual evidence it is likely that Luke and Acts had the same 
author.  His name is unknown.
Myth, after all, is what we believe naturally.  History is what we must 
painfully learn and struggle to remember.  -Albert Goldman"
    @jull43: "<quote>
	I am unaware of any historical or archaeological evidence that any 
particular type or shape container was used/required.
	Please present such evidence before talking about it.
to anoint is shaped
	It is gibberish. You are rambling about crap without the least basis in 
physical evidence. It is religious rambling. If you are not interesting 
in discussing history or archaeology then please do not include s.h.a in 
your posts.
The movie Argo explains US support of Israel.
It is the best bad idea around.
	 The Iron Webmaster, 4423
  <url> What is Israel really like? <url> a7
Fri, Oct 04, 2013  3:46:26 PM"
    @jull43: "<quote>
	Please repeat your original claims and show point by point how each of 
those claims is represented in the tonguing incident.
	The ancient Greeks held that a person consisted of body, mind, soul and 
spirit. If you claim your god has no body but is a person then it 
consists of mind, soul and (holy) spirit. Trinity. QED If you should 
ever learn history you will find most things have simple explanations. 
If you continue to post to soc.history.ancient you are in danger of 
learning real history.
The worst mistake Palestinians ever made
was inventing Judaism.
	 The Iron Webmaster, 4430
  <url> a16
  Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. a16
Fri, Oct 04, 2013  4:00:39 PM"
    @jull43: "<quote>
	Dealing with the physical evidence only the Greek is the original. The 
"hebrew" is the translation. Hebrew is a pidgin of Aramaic and Greek. 
You may argue if you wish but you must first present the physical 
evidence upon which you base your argument. I simply point to the 
mentions of the Greek several centuries before there is a mention of any 
Hebrew version and the oldest versions, the DSS, are a century after the 
oldest mention of the Greek Septuagint.
	Even if you were to argue for baseless, unprovenanced religious 
tradition that the Greek is the translation the Greek is only a couple 
centuries from the "return from Babylon" creation time that it certainly 
has a translation incredibly closer to the original intent than 
believers could possibly imagine 2500 years later. There is no recorded 
jewish objection to the translation as Logos. In fact I only find 
objections when it is pointed out to be a Greek concept.
	Think what you will. Opinions can never be suppressed but discussions 
of ancient history are based solely upon the physical evidence.
The best you can do is satisfy some of the people
some of the time.
	 The Iron Webmaster, 4427
  <url> a15
Fri, Oct 04, 2013  4:09:48 PM"
    @jull43: "<quote>
	It means you cannot explain away problems by invoking 
scribes/secretaries taking dictation.
	Sigs are sigs. Learn that some day.
That a statement is grammatically correct does not
mean it is factually correct.
	The Iron Webmaster, 4429
  <url> a1
Fri, Oct 04, 2013  4:21:29 PM"
    @jull43: "<quote>
	And of course his chroniclers were lying. How hard is that? Same with 
that Jesus character. In fact one can ask why the chroniclers of Jesus 
thought they could tell the same lie and get away with it.
	In all charity you are arguing religion and believers are very stupid, 
gullible people. If you wish to argue religion please have the common 
courtesy to remove soc.history.ancient from the distribution list.
	In all charity your logical fallacy, arguing to a conclusion, was 
identified as a fallacy some 2600 years ago by the Greeks in writing. It 
has certainly been known as a fallacy long before the first surviving 
description of it.
An Iranian bomb is no greater threat than
Palestinian statehood.
	 The Iron Webmaster, 4425
  <url> a17
Fri, Oct 04, 2013  4:30:07 PM"
    @jull43: "<quote>
	By which one assumes it is the same god described as having fire coming 
from its mouth and smoke from its nostrils and which has a very ugly butt.
	I mean if it is not in writing in the source you refer to then it is 
not there. Words mean no more than what they say.
	You are talking religion. I am talking history. You are talking about 
the ravings of lunatics. I am talking about the facts in evidence.
If ego were a weapon Israel would rule the world.
	 The Iron Webmaster, 4436
  <url> a18
Fri, Oct 04, 2013  5:18:22 PM"
    @jull43: "<quote>
	Yes that is the religious tradition. The only source for it is the hoax 
letter of Aristeas which has been identified as a hoax, aka forgery, 
when it first appeared in the early 1st c. AD. It has however been dated 
to the mid 2nd. c. AD although claiming to a 100 years older.
	Sorry it is a hoax and your religious beliefs.
	Do you know what physical evidence means?
	I know the religious beliefs. If you have physical evidence for your 
claims please post it. If you do not have physical evidence you don't 
have jack.
	And the "hebrew" version is first mentioned in the Hexapla. Even 
Josephus does not mention any "hebrew" version or "hebrew language" either.
	There is no evidence Hebrew was ever a spoken language. When the 
Judeans appear in history they are speaking Aramaic. There is no mention 
of any other language.
	If you cannot post physical evidence for your claims you are wasting 
everyone's time.
	But still no Hebrew language. Physical evidence please.
	All you did was recite the unprovenanced religious tradition. When you 
have physical evidence post it.
	Physical evidence is the ONLY place to start. There is nothing else.
	What people wrote is also physical evidence but only of what they 
wrote. No one in ancient times did other than cite the hoax to claim the 
Greek was the translation.
	Physical evidence NO religious beliefs or please remove 
soc.history.ancient.
What we do for ourselves dies with us.
What we do for others lives through all eternity.
	 The Iron Webmaster, 4428
  <url> Antisemitism a10
Fri, Oct 04, 2013 10:02:24 PM"
    @jull43: "<quote>
	As I pointed out poor eyesight explains exactly nothing. It only 
demonstrates the people who invoke it are not very bright.
When a crime depends not only upon the act but
who commits the act it is a tool of tyranny.
	 The Iron Webmaster, 4431
  <url> a15
Fri, Oct 04, 2013 10:14:35 PM"
    @dalton: "Note that an identical crosspost by me to
talk.religion.misc,alt.messianic,alt.religion,alt.religion.christian,alt.
religion.christian.roman-catholic
produced no followups.
David Dalton  <email_address>   <url> (home page)
<url> Newfoundland&Labrador Music & Travel
"And now the angry morning; Gives the early signs of warning
You must face alone the plans you make; Decisions they will try to break" SMcL"
    @jull43: "...
 > " In all charity you are arguing religion and believers are very stupid,
<quote>
	Sir when an ancient source is filled with tales of magic then adults 
dismiss them immediately. The gospels are filled with magical tales. 
They are replete with magic. They may be ancient but as sources of 
history they are even more magical than the tales of Apollonius of Tyana.
	Again, as a gullible believer in magic you want to talk religion. The 
subject here is history.
If there is a jewish people independent of religion
then the Palestinians are Jews.
	 The Iron Webmaster, 4420
  <url> a8
Sat, Oct 05, 2013 12:06:21 AM"
    @big_mart_98: "<quote>
You have confused two things.  The Word as Jesus comes only at the 
beginning, no doubt logos in its quotidian meaning occurs all over the 
Bible and any other book.
Myth, after all, is what we believe naturally.  History is what we must 
painfully learn and struggle to remember.  -Albert Goldman"
    @big_mart_98: "<quote>
He has a point.  There is a sentence where Paul writes that he is 
writing it himself.  Believers do this kind of thing selectively.  They 
never mention his allusions to his connections in the Herodian family 
and the Imperial court.
Myth, after all, is what we believe naturally.  History is what we must 
painfully learn and struggle to remember.  -Albert Goldman"
    @jull43: "<quote>
	I assume you have been blessed with the malevolently designed eyes, aka 
intelligent design, as everyone else.
	Have you never tried writing with them off? The worse they are the 
closer you will get to the paper. And the closer you get the smaller you 
will write. Next compare that size to your writing in a life size image 
of some surviving scrap of ancient writing.
	Some church, I think in Egypt, claims to have a fragment of an original 
letter from Paul described as the size of a postage stamp. There are 
fragments of several lines. That is one huge stamp.
	As to the comment on writing it himself, as that was what everyone did, 
I suggest the reason for the remark is very unlikely to be an issue of 
eyesight. Not only was it the norm but also eyesight being most always 
nearsightedness does not affect either the ability to read or write.
The occupation can do no right.
The occupied can do no wrong.
	The Iron Webmaster, 4424
  <url> Antisemitism a10
Sat, Oct 05, 2013  3:59:11 PM"
    @jull43: "<quote>
	Writing in large letters has nothing to do with eyesight. With poor 
eyesight one simply gets closer to the page to read and write. In fact 
writing in large letters is the opposite of the normal adaptation to 
poor eyesight.
	You would think people making up these dumb "explanations" would test 
their "idea" by taking off their glasses and writing something. Perhaps 
it is the equivalent of rocket surgery for them.
If Israel and its lobby were not behind the Iraq war
over Iraq's nuclear weapons program how is it they
are not behind an Iran war over a nuclear weaspons
program?
	 The Iron Webmaster, 4417
  <url> What is Israel really like? <url> a7
Sat, Oct 05, 2013  4:16:57 PM"
    @jull43: "<quote>
	I wrote what I wrote not your mis-statement of what I wrote.
	BTW: There is no archaeological evidence of any Hebrews EVER at any 
time. It has nothing do with with "ancient" Hebrews. All Hebrews are 
like Munchkins found only in fantastic tales of magic and witches and 
heroes and kings and satyrs and dragons and unicorns.
	Again, this is history not religion. Please have the common courtesy to 
post only on the topic of the newsgroup.
The occupation can do no right.
The occupied can do no wrong.
	The Iron Webmaster, 4424
  <url> a2
Sat, Oct 05, 2013  4:52:31 PM"
    @jull43: "<quote>
	You are either ignorant of historical sources or a deliberately lying 
about them. Either way, take it some place else.
When a crime depends not only upon the act but
who commits the act it is a tool of tyranny.
	 The Iron Webmaster, 4431
  <url> a11
Sat, Oct 05, 2013  5:06:44 PM"
    @big_mart_98: "<quote>
To whom does a pronoun usually refer when it comes two words after a 
proper name?
Myth, after all, is what we believe naturally.  History is what we must 
painfully learn and struggle to remember.  -Albert Goldman"
    @big_mart_98: "<quote>
You may well be ignorant of them: you won't have learned about them in 
Sunday school.
Myth, after all, is what we believe naturally.  History is what we must 
painfully learn and struggle to remember.  -Albert Goldman"
    @big_mart_98: "<quote>
You really have this wrong.  Most of the document will have been written 
by a scribe, that is why he stresses the fact that he wrote that sentence.
Myth, after all, is what we believe naturally.  History is what we must 
painfully learn and struggle to remember.  -Albert Goldman"
    @big_mart_98: "<quote>
If you are leading up to anti-Semitism, I would need to meet the guy to 
form a judgement.  It is true that he is labouring under some woeful 
misconceptions, but it is also true that he has an uncanny instinct for 
crap detection.  People find him outrageous because they have been 
taught Judeo-Christian mythology as fact since childhood and have lost 
the capacity for drawing distinctions.
Myth, after all, is what we believe naturally.  History is what we must 
painfully learn and struggle to remember.  -Albert Goldman"
    @big_mart_98: "<quote>
I don't recall any.  Could you elaborate?
Myth, after all, is what we believe naturally.  History is what we must 
painfully learn and struggle to remember.  -Albert Goldman"
    @jull43: "<quote>
	Lets try it from the evidence. Cicero mentions using them and clearly 
he could afford them, perhaps even getting the government to assigned 
them to him for free. Otherwise they were moonlighting from their day 
jobs. It is not clear that an itinerant preacher could afford them. When 
people talk about them in ancient times they seem to think 
"stenographer" instead of court reporter or notary.
	It is unclear why a person who could write would go to the added 
trouble and expense of hiring someone to do what he could do himself. 
Would you hire someone to type in your responses here? Did you ever hire 
anyone to write anything for you? Other than perhaps formal invitations 
using calligraphers perhaps.
	But enough argumentation.
	One would expect were this a common practice there would be mention of 
it. There is plenty of direct and indirect material on what they did do. 
They did official and semi-official work making certified copies and 
such. They also hired out to make copies of books for people who did not 
have time to make their own copies. I know of no mention of writing 
personal letters much less from dictation.
	I have come across several mentions of kings and such in the Dark Ages 
having to rely upon scribes to read and write for them because they 
could not. That is hardly noteworthy if it were always done that way.
	There are lots of problems with ancient texts. Those problems are 
explained in a variety of ways. So are as I am aware only when the 
"author" is an infallible religious figure is this idea of a scribe as 
personal secretary invoked as an explanation.
	Please tell me what facts you know that I have not invoked.
unicorns: Job 39:9-10, Psalm 22:21, Numbers 23:22, Numbers 24:8, Psalm 
92:10,
Deut 33:17, Isaiah 34:7
dragons: Isaiah 34:13, Psalm 91:13, Psalm 74:13, Deut 32:33, Micah 1:8
cockatrice: Isaiah 11:8
satyr: Isaiah 13:21
witches: Exodus 22:18, 1 Samuel 15:23, 2 Kings 21:6, Leviticus 19:31
	 The Iron Webmaster, 4434 <url> a12
Sun, Oct 06, 2013  3:24:58 PM"
    @big_mart_98: "<quote>
Okay, hands up, but why is the sentence saying he wrote it himself there?
Myth, after all, is what we believe naturally.  History is what we must 
painfully learn and struggle to remember.  -Albert Goldman"
    @jull43: "On 10/7/2013 12:08 PM, Ancient wrote
<quote>
	If you wish to continue this exchange and read replies to other of your 
posts please join me on soc.history.ancient.
The best you can do is satisfy some of the people
some of the time.
	 The Iron Webmaster, 4427
  <url> a13
Mon, Oct 07, 2013  9:46:31 AM"
    @jull43: "<quote>
	Damned if I know, perhaps just for emphasis. It isn't like they had 
exclamation points. The size being the emphasis not the I. I have 
sarcastically written, Am I typing slow enough for you (to understand)? 
Does that mean I really typed slowly? Does it mean anyone could tell if 
I did or not? Of course it would be a great help to find other uses of 
large lettering meaning something.
	The point is, if it does mean something it does not mean everything 
else was dictation.
	Perhaps the belief guides the translation. An "I myself" construction 
is implied.
The best you can do is satisfy some of the people
some of the time.
	 The Iron Webmaster, 4427
  <url> a13
Mon, Oct 07, 2013  9:46:31 AM"
    @big_mart_98: "<quote>
Rulers clamed to be gods all the time.  As to supernatural acts, do you 
have any cites?
Myth, after all, is what we believe naturally.  History is what we must 
painfully learn and struggle to remember.  -Albert Goldman"
    @big_mart_98: "<quote>
I don't gainsay any of that.  My question was about supernatural acts.
Myth, after all, is what we believe naturally.  History is what we must 
painfully learn and struggle to remember.  -Albert Goldman"
    @big_mart_98: "<quote>
Yes.
Myth, after all, is what we believe naturally.  History is what we must 
painfully learn and struggle to remember.  -Albert Goldman"
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