Case 1:20-mc-00212-AJN Document 42-13 Filed 06/29/20 Page 1 of 82 EXHIBIT 13 Case 1:20-mc-00212-AJN Case 113-cr-00315-WHP Document Document 42-13 15-1 Filed Filed 06/11/13 06/29/20 Page Page 12 of of 81 82 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT HIDDLE DISTRICT OF FLORIDA 2 JACKSONVILLE DIVISION 3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, Jacksonville, Florida 4 Plaintiff, Case No. 3:13-mj-1087-JRK 5 Thursday, April 18, 2012 6 FREDERIC CILINS, 11:02 a.m. 7 Defendant. Courtroom 5D 8 9 DIGITALLY RECORDED DETENTION HEARING 10 BEFORE THE HONORABLE JAMES R. KLINDT UNITED STATES MAGISTRATE JUDGE 11 12 13 GOVERNMENT COUNSEL: 14 Kelly Karase, Esquire U.S. Attorney’s Office 15 300 North Hogan Street, Suite 700 Jacksonville, FL 32202 16 17 DEFENSE COUNSEL: 18 Michelle Smith, Esquire Law Office of Hichelle P. Smith 19 P.O. Box 1788 Orlando, FL 32802-1788 20 21 COURT REPORTER: 22 Shelli Kozachenko 221 North Hogan Street, #185 23 Jacksonville, FL 32202 Telephone: (904) 301-6842 24 Fax: (904) 301-6846 25 (Proceedings recorded by electronic sound recording; transcript produced by computer.) Case 1:20-mc-00212-AJN Case 1:13-cr-00315-WHP Document Document 42-13 15-1 Filed Filed 06/11/13 06/29/20 Page Page 23 of of 81 82 2 i P R O C E E D I N G S 2 Thursday, April 18, 2012 11:02 a.m. 4 COURT SECURITY OFFICER: All rise. United States 5 District Court in and for the Middle District of Florida is 6 now in session, the Honorable James R. Klindt presiding. 7 Please be seated. 8 THE COURT: This is the case of United States of 9 America against Frederic Cilins, Case No. 3:I3-mj-1087-JRK. i0 Kelly Karase represents the United States and Michelle Smith ii is here on behalf of Mr. Cilins. 12 Is that correct? 13 MS. SMITH: That’s correct, Your Honor. 14 THE COURT: All right. Good morning. 15 MS. SMITH: Good morning, Your Honor. 16 THE COURT: Mr. Cilins is in the courtroom, and 17 Ernst is it Thervil, sir? 18 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, sir. 19 THE COURT: Is here as the interpreter. 20 Let me go ahead and swear you, Mr. Thervil, please. 21 If you would stand and raise your right hand. 22 Do you solemnly swear that you will translate this 23 case from English to French and French to English to the best 24 of your ability? 25 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, I do. Case 1:20-mc-00212-AJN Case 113-cr-00315-WHP Document Document 42-13 15-1 Filed Filed 06/11/13 06/29/20 Page Page 34 of of 81 82 3 1 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. 2 And would you please state your full name? 3 THE WITNESS: Ernst Thervil. 4 THE COURT: All right. Thank you, sir. 5 Hr. Cilins was arrested on April 14th, 2013, and he 6 had made his initial appearance on April 15th, 2013, on a -- 7 he made his appearance on a criminal complaint filed in the 8 Southern District of New York. 9 When he made his appearance he asked for some time 10 to try to contact an attorney and hire counsel, and also the 11 government moved for his detention, so I set the case over to 12 today first to inquire regarding status of counsel, but it 13 looks like that’s taken care of, and so we’re set for the 14 detention hearing. 15 And, Hs. Smith, are you ready to proceed today? 16 MS. SMITH: Yes, Your Honor, we are ready to 17 proceed. 18 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. 19 Let me just ask you, Hs. Smith, with regard to the 20 interpreter, the other day we had a little bit of a problem 21 because Hr. Cilins apparently speaks and understands English 22 fairly well, but he was not comfortable proceeding without an 23 interpreter. But when he was answering a number of 24 questions, he was answering before the question could be 25 fully interpreted because he seemed to understand very Case 1:20-mc-00212-AJN Case 113-cr-00315-WHP Document Document 42-13 15-1 Filed Filed 06/11/13 06/29/20 Page Page 45 of of 81 82 4 1 well -- 2 MS. SMITH: Your Honor -- 3 THE COURT: -- so -- 4 MS. SMITH: -- may I forgive me for interrupting 5 you. 6 THE COURT: Yes. 7 HS. SHITH: The interpreter is actually not 8 interpreting now, so if we could instruct the interpreter 9 that he has to interpret word for word what you’re saying. 10 THE COURT: Yes. Well, and that’s my -- and that’s 11 my question. Is Hr. Cilins -- is his desire to have a 12 simultaneous translation, or is he -- is he comfortable 13 proceeding in English and having the interpreter interpret 14 phrases or words that he might not understand? 15 HS. SMITH: I think -- if I can have just one 16 moment. I spoke with him at Folkston two days ago, but if I 17 could have just a moment? 18 THE COURT: Yes. Yes, yes. Take your time. 19 HS. SMITH: Your Honor, he’s indicating now -- and 20 he has the same problem I do. I understand some French so I 21 hear the French, I hear you, and it’s hard to concentrate. 22 speak a couple of languages. 23 We spoke the other day, and he indicated to me, 24 much like I would be if I went to Spain or went to Brazil -- 25 I speak both languages fluently, but I would want an Case 1:20-mc-00212-AJN Case 113-cr-00315-WHP Document Document 42-13 15-1 Filed Filed 06/11/13 06/29/20 Page Page 56 of of 81 82 5 1 interpreter in legal proceedings or medical matters and 2 things that are very important. That is what he has 3 indicated to me. 4 The problem he’s having right now, he’s hearing you 5 and listening to you and he’s also hearing the interpreter. 6 I don’t know if we can maybe try the headphones and see if 7 that works any better. 8 THE COURT: We can try to see whatever works, 9 because I want whatever’s working to work well, and I 10 understand that let me just ask, Mr. Thervil, are you able 11 to do a simultaneous translation? 12 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honor. 13 THE COURT: All right. Well, let’s see what we can 14 do then. 15 MS. SMITH: And, Your Honor, I’m sorry but -- he 16 does speak English but, again, I think the problem is this is 17 an important proceeding, and he needs to understand 18 exactly -- 19 THE COURT: Yes. And I don’t mind that at all, but 20 the problem we had the other day is while he wanted to do 21 that, he kept answering questions before they could even be 22 interpreted, so it almost seemed like a waste of time, and it 23 confused the proceedings. 24 I want to do it however he wants it and whatever’s 25 best for him. Case 1:20-mc-00212-AJN Case 1:13-cr-00315-WHP Document Document 42-13 15-1 Filed Filed 06/11/13 06/29/20 Page Page 67 of of 81 82 i MS. SMITH: Well, one way or the other -- 2 THE COURT: Yeah. We need to do it one way or the 3 other, that’s for sure. 4 (Ms. Smith conferring with defendant.) 5 THE COURT: I doubt if I’ll be asking him any 6 questions, but 7 MS. SMITH: (Unintelligible.) 8 THE COURT: All right. Is that working now, 9 Mr. Thervil? i0 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honor. ii THE COURT: All right. So if you will, then, make 12 a simultaneous translation of what is said in the courtroom, 13 all right? 14 All right. So the government has moved to detain 15 Mr. Cilins based on its view that he is a flight risk. 16 And, Ms. Karase, are you ready to proceed? 17 MS. KARASE: Yes, Your Honor. 18 THE COURT: All right. You may proceed. 19 MS. KARASE: As Your Honor has stated, the 20 government seeks detention of this defendant based on the 21 fact that he’s a risk of flight. Now, I’m not going to 22 restate every fact that’s contained in the very lengthy 23 complaint because I believe it sets forth an adequate 24 description of the investigation and the defendant’s actions 25 in this particular instance. Case 1:20-mc-00212-AJN Case 1:13-cr-00315-WHP Document Document 42-13 15-1 Filed Filed 06/11/13 06/29/20 Page Page 78 of of 81 82 7 i MS. SMITH: Your Honor, forgive me. If Ms. Karase 2 could slow down, the interpreter is I speak French. He’s 3 way behind and (unintelligible). I hate to be a pain. I 4 really -- 5 THE COURT: No. No. That’s fine. 6 MS. SMITH: Just slow down a little bit. 7 THE INTERPRETER: He’s also saying -- 8 MS. SMITH: The echo. 9 THE INTERPRETER: -- there is an echo and there’s i0 a -- the sentence -- when I’m speaking he could hear ii something, could not hear everything, so it just -- 12 THE COURT: Here’s what I’m going to do. I’m going 13 to take a recess and you all try to get this straightened 14 out. You may be sitting too close to him using the 15 microphone too. That could be a problem. 16 But let’s take our time and get this worked out, 17 and we’ll get the people down here if we need to from the 18 audio technical department and get this worked out. 19 So take whatever time you need to work it out. I’m 20 not in any hurry at all, but I want to keep some semblance of 21 order to this proceeding because there’s no reason for it not 22 to be orderly. 23 So, Ms. Karase, you and I will both do what we can 24 to talk slowly. The problem we had the other day, you could 25 only say a phrase and then you had to wait until the entire Case 1:20-mc-00212-AJN Case 1:13-cr-00315-WHP Document Document 42-13 15-1 Filed Filed 06/11/13 06/29/20 Page Page 89 of of 81 82 1 phrase was stated and then you had to wait again and there 2 was no simultaneous aspect to it. 3 If it can’t be done simultaneous, I need to know 4 that and so does Ms. Karase and everyone who speaks in the 5 courtroom. So if it can’t be done simultaneously, I just 6 need to know that, and if that’s the case, we may have to 7 reschedule because it will probably take us about five or six 8 hours to do this, which is fine. I have all day tomorrow if 9 we need to because I think the Federal Public Defender’s on i0 furlough and so we can’t do anything in their cases. ii So if we have to reset it for tomorrow where we 12 take our time, that’s fine, because I really -- the most 13 important thing, and it’s not even happening now, is that 14 Mr. Cilins knows exactly what’s going on in the courtroom. 15 So we’ll be in recess. 16 (Recess from ii:ii a.m. until 11:19 a.m.; all 17 parties present.) 18 COURT SECURITY OFFICER: All rise. This Honorable 19 Court is now in session. 20 Please be seated. 21 THE COURT: All right. Ms. Chaddock tells me that 22 we’re set to go now, and Mr. Thervil is able to make a 23 simultaneous translation, and Hr. Cilins is able to hear him. 24 Mr. Cilins, if you can’t or don’t understand 25 something at any point or you’re losing the audio, just raise Case1:20-mc-00212-AJN Case 1:13-cr-00315-WHP Document Document42-13 15-1 Filed Filed 06/29/20 06/11/13 Page Page 10 9 ofof81 82 i your hand and we’ll stop and try to deal with that, all 2 right? 3 He’s shaking his head yes which indicates to me 4 he’s hearing. 5 THE DEFENDANT: (In English:) I understand. 6 MS. SMITH: And, Judge, the parties have just sort 7 of come and agreed that if there is a problem he’s going to 8 raise his hand, so if he loses in case I miss it or 9 something, he’ll raise his hand so somebody in the courtroom i0 should notice. ii THE COURT: Right. Thank you. 12 All right. Ms. Karase, let’s start from the 13 beginning, then, if you would, please. 14 MS. KARASE: Yes, Your Honor. As I stated, the 15 United States is seeking detention based on risk of flight. 16 I’m not going to go through every fact that’s contained 17 within the detailed and lengthy criminal complaint, but I do 18 wish to highlight a few facts for the Court that I think are 19 important. 20 Of course, there was an existing federal grand jury 21 investigation into violations of the Foreign Corrupt 22 Practices Act. This was an investigation into a scheme to 23 obtain valuable mining concessions in the country of Guinea. 24 It’s important to note that these mining concessions have a 25 value of approximately $2.5 billion. Case 1:20-mc-00212-AJN Case 1:13-cr-00315-WHP Document Document 42-13 15-1 Filed Filed 06/11/13 06/29/20 Page Page 10 11 of of 81 82 10 1 The investigation involves whether or not a foreign 2 company bribed officials of the former government of Guinea 3 to obtain these mining rights in 2008. The allegations at 4 the heart of that investigation regard whether or not the 5 company defined as the Entity in the body of the criminal 6 complaint paid high ranking government officials in Guinea 7 approximately $12 million for these mining concessions. 8 Now, of course, a big section of the criminal 9 complaint deals with a confidential witness who has firsthand 10 knowledge about unlawful payments made to obtain these mining 11 concessions. This witness was served with a federal grand 12 jury subpoena on February 2nd, 2013. It required this 13 witness’s testimony and also the production of documents 14 relating to these mining concessions and payments made in 15 exchange thereof. This defendant was negotiating with these 16 officials and their representatives on behalf of the company, 17 or the Entity, as referred to in the complaint. 18 In early Harch 2013, the defendant contacted the 19 confidential witness by telephone to offer money in exchange 20 for the production of the originals of contracts and other 21 documents subpoenaed by the federal grand jury, and in 22 recorded telephone calls this defendant offered that 23 confidential witness money for false testimony denying the 24 existence of any prior contracts. 25 This defendant had a face-to-face meeting with the Case 1:20-mc-00212-AJN Case 113-cr-00315-WHP Document Document 42-13 15-1 Filed Filed 06/11/13 06/29/20 Page Page 11 12 of of 81 82 11 1 confidential witness that was surveilled by law enforcement 2 and recorded. The defendant offered the confidential witness 3 $300,000 for the witness’s production of the originals of the 4 documents and for the witness to execute a contract in which 5 the witness agreed to deny the existence of any prior 6 contracts or prior receipt of money in connection with mining 7 concessions. 8 In a later recorded and surveilled face-to-face 9 meeting -- 10 THE COURT: When was the first recording that you 11 referenced? 12 MS. KARASE: The first face-to-face meeting, Your 13 Honor? 14 THE COURT: Yes. 15 MS. KARASE: March 25th. 16 THE COURT: All right. 17 MS. KARASE: There was a second face-to-face 18 meeting on April llth in which this defendant advised that 19 same confidential witness that the witness would be paid a 20 total of $i million for compliance with the terms that 21 Mr. Cilins had dictated. 22 He specified that $200,000 would be paid up front. 23 An additional $800,000 would be paid at a later date. He 24 provided the confidential witness with a written document 25 called an attestation in which he required -- in which the Case 1:20-mc-00212-AJN Case 1:13-cr-00315-WHP Document Document 42-13 15-1 Filed Filed 06/11/13 06/29/20 Page Page 12 13 of of 81 82 12 i document required the witness deny any contracts for mining 2 concessions and deny ever receiving any money. 3 Paragraph 21 of the criminal complaint sets forth 4 the specifics -- some of the specifics of the attestation. 5 THE COURT: What page is that? 6 MS. KARASE: It’s on page 15, Your Honor, and 7 carries over to 16. 8 The confidential witness provided a copy of this 9 document to law enforcement after the end of the meeting. i0 There were a lot of specifics mentioned during that meeting ii as well, including this defendant’s agreement to get the 12 confidential witness some immediate cash. 13 They agreed to meet again, and a meeting was 14 arranged on April 14th, 2013, which is the day that the 15 defendant was taken into custody. The defendant arrived at 16 the meeting and had in his possession approximately $20,000 17 in United States currency. 18 According to the report that this defendant 19 provided to pretrial services, $20,000 in U.S. currency is 20 more than half of his annual income. He provided no other 21 source for annual income that he had. Further, he identified 22 with great specificity five properties that he owns in 23 Florida. This included approximate market value, rental 24 income, approximate location, and the current status, be it 25 occupied or unoccupied. Case 1:20-mc-00212-AJN Case 1:13-cr-00315-WHP Document Document 42-13 15-1 Filed Filed 06/11/13 06/29/20 Page Page 13 14 of of 81 82 13 i The total value of the five properties he told us 2 about was $779,000. The government has reasons to believe, 3 specifically based on my own conversations with the 4 defendant’s attorney, Ms. Smith, that the defendant actually 5 has several million dollars’ worth of property in Florida, 6 and this is unencumbered property that he somehow has managed 7 to acquire on his $32,000 salary that he earns in France, 8 and, of course, that’s converted to dollars. It’s 9 concerning, Your Honor, that he was dishonest with pretrial i0 services in identifying the assets that he has. ii Another and probably the most concerning factor 12 about the circumstances of Mr. Cilins’ arrest are that in his 13 possession at the time of his arrest was a French passport. 14 When the agents with the FBI contacted the French consulate 15 to notify the consulate of Mr. Cilins’ arrest, they provided 16 the passport number from that French passport. Now, this is 17 the French passport that Mr. Cilins used to enter the United 18 States, and it bore the entry stamp from when he arrived and 19 several other entry stamps. 20 The French consulate, when -- having run that 21 number, reported that it was not a valid passport, that it 22 appeared to be a fraudulent passport, and that number did not 23 come back to any existing French passport. 24 The agents, being diligent as they are, located a 25 photocopy of a passport in Mr. Cilins’ property at the time Case 1:20-mc-00212-AJN Case 1:13-cr-00315-WHP Document Document 42-13 15-1 Filed Filed 06/11/13 06/29/20 Page Page 14 15 of of 81 82 14 i of his arrest. Although this photocopy bore a photograph of 2 the defendant and his address, the same address that was on 3 the physical passport, it had a different issue date and a 4 different passport number. 5 The agents provided the passport number from the 6 photocopy to the French consulate and confirmed that this 7 was, in fact, a validly issued passport. Your Honor, we 8 don’t know where that physical passport is. All we know is 9 that there’s a photocopy and that at some point it was in i0 existence. ii Mr. Cilins is not a United States citizen or a 12 legal permanent resident. In fact, as I’ve just proffered, 13 he was traveling on a fraudulent French passport at the time 14 that he was arrested. There’s currently an immigration 15 detainer in place because he was here under the visa waiver 16 program. 17 When looking at the factors under 3142(g) of Title 18 18, we examine the nature and circumstances of the offense 19 charged. This offense was particularly egregious, Your 20 Honor. This was the interference, continuously and 21 repeatedly, with a pending federal grand jury investigation. 22 As the complaint explains, although he may not be a 23 citizen of this country, Mr. Cilins was made aware of what a 24 federal grand jury is and what its significance is. He 25 repeatedly instructed the confidential witness to destroy Case 1:20-mc-00212-AJN Case 1:13-cr-00315-WHP Document Document 42-13 15-1 Filed Filed 06/11/13 06/29/20 Page Page 15 16 of of 81 82 15 i documents requested as part of that investigation. He 2 repeatedly instructed the witness to lie as part of that 3 federal grand jury investigation. He went so far as to 4 outline the terms in a document that he provided to the 5 confidential witness, which gets to the next factor as to the 6 weight of the evidence against Mr. Cilins, which is factor 7 No. 2 under 3142(g) . 8 The weight of the evidence against Mr. Cilins is 9 very strong. There are multiple recorded calls and i0 face-to-face recorded meetings that were also surveilled by ii law enforcement. 12 With regard to the penalties that Mr. Cilins is 13 facing as a result of this offense, we’ve covered the maximum 14 term of imprisonment, which Count One is 20 years under the 15 statute. The guideline range, Your Honor, surpasses the 16 statutory maximum. 17 The applicable guideline range for this offense is 18 approximately 262 months imprisonment to 327 months 19 imprisonment. This is because we look at the underlying 20 offense in which this witness -- this defendant was 21 obstructing the investigation of, and that offense is the 22 Foreign Corrupt Practices Act. 23 The amount of the benefit received in return for 24 the bribes under the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act was over 25 $2 billion, which is off the chart in terms of the fraud Case 1:20-mc-00212-AJN Case 1:13-cr-00315-WHP Document Document 42-13 15-1 Filed Filed 06/11/13 06/29/20 Page Page 16 17 of of 81 82 16 i calculations guidelines. 2 We look at the history and characteristics of the 3 person, and included therein, we look at the person’s 4 character. Well, we know that he was less than truthful with 5 pretrial services in summarizing the assets that he has. The 6 fact that he showed up to a meeting with the confidential 7 witness with $20,000 in cash but reports an annual income of 8 less than twice that is indicative of someone being 9 untruthful. i0 We also look at the property that he denied -- ii well, the property that he claimed to own when meeting with 12 pretrial services and the property that was later disclosed 13 that he actually has access to and owns through his attorney. 14 And just so we’re clear, I’ve had conversations with Officer 15 Watson about whether there was any confusion when she was 16 interviewing the defendant. She’s confident that he 17 understood, they were able to communicate well, and the only 18 properties he listed are those that are included in the 19 report. 20 We look at the defendant’s family ties. He has 21 none to the United States. We look at the financial 22 resources of the defendant. He has significant financial 23 resources, which of course indicates the motive and ability 24 to flee. 25 The amount of cash that he’s offering, paying to Case 1:20-mc-00212-AJN Case 1:13-cr-00315-WHP Document Document 42-13 15-1 Filed Filed 06/11/13 06/29/20 Page Page 17 18 of of 81 82 17 i the confidential witness, a total of $i million at the April 2 llth meeting, and the fact that the original bribes in which 3 this defendant was involved in 2008 amounted to $12 million 4 are indicative of just how significant this defendant’s 5 financial resources are. 6 He doesn’t have any ties to this community other 7 than this property that he may have a financial interest in. 8 He travels back and forth frequently, and we know that he was 9 traveling on this occasion on a false passport and have no i0 information as to where his real passport is. ii Your Honor, if this defendant were released and he 12 somehow made his way back to France, in violation of any bond 13 conditions this Court would set, the United States would not 14 be able to extradite him from France. France will not 15 extradite its own citizens. 16 Your Honor, for these reasons, the penalty that 17 this defendant is facing, his lack of ties and status in the 18 United States, the falsehoods that he’s put before this Court 19 and this government in traveling on his false passport all 20 support a finding of detention based on risk of flight. 21 THE COURT: All right. Ms. Smith, do you have 22 questions for Ms. Karase on her proffer? 23 MS. SMITH: Your Honor, I was hoping we would 24 actually hear from an agent today. I assumed that they would 25 bring an agent in, so I do have some questions on the Case 1:20-mc-00212-AJN Case 1:13-cr-00315-WHP Document Document 42-13 15-1 Filed Filed 06/11/13 06/29/20 Page Page 18 19 of of 81 82 18 i proffer. 2 THE COURT: All right. Well, the practice in this 3 division is one that isn’t seen in many places, but it’s been 4 in place since about 1987, and that is that defense counsel 5 is given the opportunity to examine counsel, and we go from 6 there. If it becomes apparent that the relevant information 7 is in the possession of an agent, then the Court does 8 consider whether it would be appropriate to allow the 9 defense -- or defense counsel to call an agent. i0 So it’s not necessarily precluded, and I don’t ii know -- Ms. Karase, is the agent present with you a local 12 agent or someone from New York who would have more knowledge 13 of the case? 14 MS. KARASE: The agent present is a local agent, 15 Your Honor. She has been involved in some local aspects of 16 the investigation, but she certainly is not the case agent. 17 THE COURT: All right. Well, we’ll proceed and see 18 how we do, and we’ll go from there. 19 Ms. Karase, if you don’t mind moving over to this 20 podium, and, Ms. Smith, if you could use this one so I can 21 make sure that we’re getting everything recorded properly. 22 MS. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honor. 23 THE COURT: And if this being -- if this is your 24 first experience in our division, basically cross-examining 25 an assistant United States attorney, it’s I find that Case 1:20-mc-00212-AJN Case 113-cr-00315-WHP Document Document 42-13 15-1 Filed Filed 06/11/13 06/29/20 Page Page 19 20 of of 81 82 19 1 those who haven’t practiced the way we do it here tend to not 2 be as comfortable with the situation, so we’ll just take it 3 slow and you can just make sure that you allow Hs. Karase to 4 answer your questions and I’ll make sure she allows you to 5 ask them. 6 And then if she objects to a question, then she 7 gets to object and we’ll go from there. 8 So you may proceed. 9 HS. SMITH: Your Honor, if I can make a joke, this 10 should be a lot of fun. 11 THE COURT: Well, sometimes it is -- 12 HS. SMITH: I’m making a joke, Your Honor. 13 THE COURT: I know. I know. Yes, you may -- 14 HS. SMITH: A little levity this morning. 15 THE COURT: One minute. 16 THE INTERPRETER: He has told the interpreter to 17 get with the mike closer to the interpreter’s mouth. 18 THE COURT: Okay. Let me let’s just 19 double-check now. 20 Hr. Cilins, are you following everything, sir? 21 THE DEFENDANT: Yes. 22 THE COURT: All right. Hs. Smith, you may proceed. 23 MS. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honor. Please the 24 Court? 25 THE COURT: Yes. Case 1:20-mc-00212-AJN Case 113-cr-00315-WHP Document Document 42-13 15-1 Filed Filed 06/11/13 06/29/20 Page Page 20 21 of of 81 82 2O 1 HS. SHITH: Hs. Karase, what information do you 2 have to show that Hr. Cilins was actually involved with BSGR, 3 the Entity mining company named in the criminal complaint in 4 2008? 5 HS. KARASE: He was present at several meetings 6 that were held and acted on behalf of the entity in 7 negotiating those $12 million contracts, the contracts that 8 totaled in value $12 million. 9 MS. SMITH: What was the exact date of those 10 contracts? 11 MS. I<ARASE: Hs. Smith, other than what’s contained 12 in the criminal complaint, I’m not positive of the dates. 13 HS. SMITH: Isn’t it a fact those were actually 14 negotiated after Hr. Cilins terminated any relationship 15 whatsoever with BSGR? 16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter -- 17 MS. KARASE: 18 THE COURT: Whoa, whoa, whoa. 19 THE INTERPRETER: Hs. Smith needs to slow down a 20 little bit. 21 MS. SMITH: I’m sorry. 22 THE INTERPRETER: Can you repeat the question for 23 the interpreter, please? 24 MS. SMITH: Thank you. 25 Isn’t it a fact that Hr. Cilins terminated any and Case 1:20-mc-00212-AJN Case 113-cr-00315-WHP Document Document 42-13 15-1 Filed Filed 06/11/13 06/29/20 Page Page 21 22 of of 81 82 21 1 all ties with BSGR, the Entity, in 2007? 2 HS. KARASE: Hr. Cilins indicated that he was still 3 acting on behalf of the Entity’s president in a recorded 4 conversation with the confidential witness in as recently 5 as the last month. 6 HS. SMITH: That wasn’t my question. 7 In 2008 he was not actively employed, working for, 8 or in any other capacity connected with BSGR. 9 MS. KhRASE: It’s my understanding -- 10 THE COURT: Slow down. Let him finish. 11 Okay. 12 MS. KhRASE: It’s my understanding that he was 13 still acting on behalf of the Entity. I do not know whether 14 or not he was formally employed in terms of receiving a 15 paycheck or under some employment agreement, but it’s my 16 understanding he was still acting in furtherance of the 17 Entity and representing the Entity through his presence at 18 meetings and his negotiations of those contracts. 19 HS. SMITH: You have reviewed both his current 20 passport and his previous passport for his entry and exit 21 stamps to Guinea? 22 HS. KARASE: Hs. Smith, his current and valid 23 passport has not been located. We just have a photocopy of 24 that. 25 MS. SMITH: Well, let’s move to that and then we’ll Case 1:20-mc-00212-AJN Case 113-cr-00315-WHP Document Document 42-13 15-1 Filed Filed 06/11/13 06/29/20 Page Page 22 23 of of 81 82 22 1 come back to this line of questioning. 2 Do you have both the passport that you retrieved, 3 that your agents retrieved, from Hr. Cilins as well as the 4 photocopy with you? 5 HS. KARASE: No. The fraudulent passport, we do 6 not have the physical copy. I have a photocopy of the 7 passport, just the one page, and then the photocopy that was 8 actually seized well, a photocopy of a copy that was 9 seized from Hr. Cilins. 10 HS. SMITH: Wasn’t the passport actually seized, 11 the one that you’re alleging is a fraud? 12 MS. KARASE: Yes, it was. 13 HS. SMITH: Okay. And your agent does not have 14 that? 15 HS. KARASE: She does not have that in the 16 courtroom with her at the time, no. 17 MS. SMITH: Where is that located right now? 18 MS. KARASE: It’s in evidence. 19 MS. SMITH: And who exactly did you speak with at 20 the consulate? 21 MS. KARASE: I did not speak with anyone at the 22 consulate. 23 MS. SMITH: So you have no firsthand knowledge that 24 the passport is actually a fraud. 25 MS. KARASE: I will proffer that the FBI has spoken Case 1:20-mc-00212-AJN Case 113-cr-00315-WHP Document Document 42-13 15-1 Filed Filed 06/11/13 06/29/20 Page Page 23 24 of of 81 82 23 1 with the consulate and was told that the passport was a 2 fraud. 3 MS. SMITH: Who did they speak with at the 4 consulate? 5 MS. KARASE: A female by the name of Pasqual 6 Garcia. 7 And let me be clear. The passport number was not a 8 registered number. 9 MS. SMITH: And did you actually speak -- what is 10 Ms. Pasqual Garcia’s capacity at the consulate? 11 MS. KARASE: She was the contact who received 12 notification of the arrest and to whom the notice was 13 directed when the agents called and advised the nature of the 14 report they had to make. 15 MS. SMITH: Did she -- which consular office is she 16 located in? 17 MS. KARASE: Miami. 18 MS. SMITH: Did anyone attempt to speak with the 19 consul general or his -- the honorary consul general in 20 Orlando? 21 MS. KARASE: NO. 22 MS. SMITH: So other than a deputy clerk who said 23 the passport was fraudulent or not registered actually 24 they said it wasn’t registered, not that it was fraudulent -- 25 that is the only information you have. Case 1:20-mc-00212-AJN Case 113-cr-00315-WHP Document Document 42-13 15-1 Filed Filed 06/11/13 06/29/20 Page Page 24 25 of of 81 82 24 1 HS. KARASE: Correct, and the photocopy of the 2 missing passport. 3 HS. SMITH: What was the issue date on the passport 4 you obtained from Hr. Cilins? 5 Your Honor, for the record, I would like to see 6 both of those passports at this they’ve made a very 7 serious allegation here that we have a fraudulent passport, 8 and I don’t believe that -- 9 HS. KARASE: The issue date of the actual passport 10 that was recovered was October 21st, 2008. The photocopy of 11 the valid passport bears an issue date of Harch 19th, 2007. 12 HS. SMITH: Have you verified with France if a 13 person may have more than one passport? 14 HS. KARASE: No. 15 HS. SMITH: So you’ve not you’ve not made any 16 attempts to verify if France is like England or some of the 17 other EC countries that allow duplicate passports to be 18 issued. 19 MS. KARASE: I’m not aware of that, but no, that 20 inquiry has not been made. The passport bearing the issue 21 date of March 19th, 2007, has not been located though. 22 MS. SMITH: May I see the copies that you’re 23 relying on? 24 Your Honor, may I have just a moment, please? 25 THE COURT: Yes. Case 1:20-mc-00212-AJN Case 1:13-cr-00315-WHP Document Document 42-13 15-1 Filed Filed 06/11/13 06/29/20 Page Page 25 26 of of 81 82 25 1 THE DEFENDANT: (In English:) Can I say anything 2 to my attorney? 3 MS. SMITH: No. I don’t think you’re going to need 4 to. I can read the French, if I can read it. 5 You’re aware that the passport the two -- Your 6 Honor, may I have just a moment? 7 THE COURT: Yes, ma’am. 8 Let me just say, what is it that you’ve been 9 handed? I know there was a copy of, I thought, the first 10 passport that was referenced, the one that was actually 11 seized. Do we know which what copies you have? 12 HS. SMITH: Your Honor, I’ll read what’s on there 13 so we can sort of distinguish between the two copies, and 14 then the government may be able to tell you which one’s 15 which. 16 THE COURT: Slow down just a little. 17 HS. SHITH: The first passport was issued, as the 18 government said, in Harch 19th of 2007, has an expiration of 19 Harch 18th, 2017. The passport number -- there are two of 20 them. One is difficult to read. It appears to be 07 and 21 then I can’t read two letters. What it appears to end in is 22 a 96 or a 94. The actual stamped -- and that was on the 23 stamped page portion of the passport. The numbers on the 24 passport initial photo page indicate the passport number is 25 07A as in apple, K as in kilo, 26794. Case 1:20-mc-00212-AJN Case 113-cr-00315-WHP Document Document 42-13 15-1 Filed Filed 06/11/13 06/29/20 Page Page 26 27 of of 81 82 26 1 The other passport photograph, and we only have the 2 front again, the face pages of both of them 3 indicates -- the stamped pages are, again, very difficult to 4 read, but appear to say 07CT94, an unintelligible number, 5 followed by 52. And the stamped portion of the passport 6 that’s actually written with a typewriter or computer appears 7 to say 08CT94852. 8 They both are issued to Frederic Cilins. They both 9 describe his imccarthy@example.org meters, his eyes as marron, which 10 is brown, and his nationality as French. 11 The second passport was issued apparently 12 10/21/2008 and would expire 10/20/2018. 13 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. 14 HS. SMITH: Your Honor, I’m tendering those back to 15 the government so she can tell me which one -- I believe the 16 one that she claimed was legitimate was the 2007 issue date. 17 MS. KARASE: That’s correct. 18 And, Your Honor, I’ll mark these photocopies as 19 exhibits and make them part of the record since we’ve made 20 several references to them now. 21 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. 22 HS. KARASE: And just for clarification, I’ll mark 23 the one with the issue date of 2007 as Government’s Exhibit 1 24 and the one with the issue date of 2008 as Government’s 25 Exhibit 2. Case 1:20-mc-00212-AJN Case 1:13-cr-00315-WHP Document Document 42-13 15-1 Filed Filed 06/11/13 06/29/20 Page Page 27 28 of of 81 82 27 i THE COURT: All right. 2 MS. SMITH: I believe I asked you -- and then we 3 sort of got sidetracked -- whether you verified if France 4 allowed the issuance of two passports under certain 5 circumstances. 6 MS. KARASE: No. 7 MS. SMITH: So for all you know, these are two 8 legitimate passports, one with a number that you claim is 9 registered and one with a number that you claim is not i0 registered. ii MS. KARASE: It’s not my claim; it’s the claim made 12 by the French consulate, but yes, that is the information 13 that we received. 14 MS. SMITH: Did you look at the passport that was 15 taken, the actual passport, which would have been Exhibit 16 No. 2, and did you verify the entry visa and the entry stamps 17 by U.S. Customs on there? 18 MS. KARASE: The passport that was retrieved, the 19 physical passport, had several entry and exit stamps, but the 20 particulars of those stamps were not verified. 21 MS. SMITH: And you’re aware that Immigration and 22 Customs Enforcement, and specifically CBP, which is Customs 23 and Border Protection, actually scan the passport through a 24 machine which runs it back into France to verify -- they link 25 it to the consuls to verify the passports. Case 1:20-mc-00212-AJN Case 113-cr-00315-WHP Document Document 42-13 15-1 Filed Filed 06/11/13 06/29/20 Page Page 28 29 of of 81 82 28 1 MS. KARASE: That has been my own personal 2 experience. I don’t know whether that was done so in this 3 case or under what circumstances this defendant entered the 4 country. 5 MS. SMITH: So it’s your -- I’m sorry. 6 So it’s your contention that at least on three or 7 four, five, six occasions that Mr. Cilins has entered on the 8 2008 -- the one that you’re claiming is a fraudulent 9 passport, that CPB did not at any time do their job and 10 verify that passport. 11 MS. KARASE: Ms. Smith, I certainly wasn’t present 12 when he entered, and I haven’t reviewed the passport itself, 13 nor has the agent, particularly to note the entry and exit 14 stamps other than to notice that it did bear several entry 15 and exit stamps. 16 MS. SMITH: For the United States. 17 MS. KARASE: I don’t think that we can even say for 18 the United States. Just that it had entry and exit stamps. 19 MS. SMITH: Your Honor, I would request production 20 and an actual review of the passport, and I’d like to be able 21 to contact before Your Honor makes a decision, obviously, 22 unless you’re going to release him -- that I be allowed to 23 review the passport and contact the consul myself. 24 THE COURT: Well, we’ll make -- we’ll discuss that 25 when -- Case 1:20-mc-00212-AJN Case 1:13-cr-00315-WHP Document Document 42-13 15-1 Filed Filed 06/11/13 06/29/20 Page Page 29 30 of of 81 82 29 1 MS. SMITH: When the time comes. 2 THE COURT: -- when the time comes. 3 MS. SMITH: Ms. Karase, if we can move back to 4 Guinea and the allegations in the complaint. 5 Have you been in contact with the Guinean 6 government? 7 MS. Y,ARASE: No, I have not. 8 MS. SMITH: So you’re aware that the actual 9 contracts between BSGR were actually initiated in 2002, 2005, i0 and 2006, the initial contracts. ii MS. Y,ARASE: All I can tell you about that -- I 12 can’t speak on behalf of the Guinean government, other than 13 to say that there is an open investigation in the Republic of 14 Guinea. 15 MS. SMITH: And that open investigation revealed 16 that parliament, three separate governments inside Guinea, 17 both the old government, the secondary government after 18 President Conte died, and then the next government, all 19 approved all of the BSGR contracts. 20 MS. Y~ARASE: Your -- 21 MS. SMITH: Parliament and the government 22 themselves, the president and the government. 23 MS. Y,ARASE: Your Honor, I’m going to object to 24 this line of questioning as being outside the scope of the 25 offenses with which the defendant is charged in the Case 1:20-mc-00212-AJN Case 113-cr-00315-WHP Document Document 42-13 15-1 Filed Filed 06/11/13 06/29/20 Page Page 30 31 of of 81 82 3O 1 complaint, which regard the obstruction of justice, the 2 tampering with a witness, and the destruction of records. 3 THE COURT: Well, I’ll allow a few more questions 4 in this area, and if you don’t know, then you don’t know. 5 And I’m guessing Hs. Smith plans to proffer various 6 information about this, so you did touch on the contracts to 7 at least a sufficient degree to allow some questioning about 8 it. 9 But I recognize that those aren’t the charges, but 10 I think you were providing certain information by way of 11 background, and I’m thinking she’s doing the same or will do 12 the same. But if you -- and if you don’t know, just say so 13 and she can ask her next question. 14 HS. KARASE: Hs. Smith, I’m not certain of the 15 dates that you referenced. 16 HS. SMITH: Okay. In the investigation none of 17 your FBI agents has actually spoken with the Guinean 18 government to obtain the originals of those contracts, have 19 they? 20 HS. KARASE: Can you define "your FBI agents’’~ 21 HS. SMITH: The government’s FBI agents. 22 HS. KARASE: I can’t speak on behalf of every 23 single FBI agent that’s employed by the FBI, Your Honor 24 Hs. Smith. 25 HS. SMITH: The ones that are involved in this Case 1:20-mc-00212-AJN Case 113-cr-00315-WHP Document Document 42-13 15-1 Filed Filed 06/11/13 06/29/20 Page Page 31 32 of of 81 82 31 1 investigation. 2 HS. KARASE: I’m not aware of what context they may 3 or may not have had with the government of Guinea. 4 HS. SMITH: Isn’t it true that they are relying on 5 solely the testimony of Hamadie Toure, a former consort of 6 the president who died in December of 2008, president of 7 Guinea? 8 MS. KARASE: NO. 9 MS. SMITH: What other information besides the 10 recorded telephone conversations do you have other than the 11 testimony of Mamadie Toure? 12 MS. KARASE: Well, you’ve touched on it in your 13 questioning. There were recorded telephone conversations. 14 There were recorded meetings. There was your client’s own 15 words. There were documents provided by your client, cash 16 provided by your client, travel records of your client. 17 MS. SMITH: Well -- 18 MS. KARASE: There was substantially more than the 19 word of someone that was uncorroborated. 20 MS. SMITH: Let’s talk about those travel records. 21 Can you tell us exactly what travel records you’re 22 discussing? 23 MS. KARASE: Well, I can tell you -- I can tell you 24 that the defendant met with the confidential witness on 25 multiple occasions, and he claims to have been residing in Case 1:20-mc-00212-AJN Case 113-cr-00315-WHP Document Document 42-13 15-1 Filed Filed 06/11/13 06/29/20 Page Page 32 33 of of 81 82 32 1 France at all times, and I can tell you that those meetings, 2 at least three, were surveilled and recorded. 3 HS. SMITH: What other -- what other travel 4 documents, records are you relying on in your criminal 5 complaint or to show that he is a risk of flight? 6 HS. KARASE: Other travel documents include the 7 existence of an otherwise valid passport that we’ve been 8 through that we do not know the whereabouts of, and although 9 I do not have them, I’m confident that travel records exist 10 to confirm his presence in Jacksonville. 11 I know that he flew in from -- that he flew in and 12 the meetings took place at the airport, and so I’m confident 13 that there are records of those travels as well in order to 14 have those meetings with the confidential witness. 15 HS. SMITH: And that is the three meetings in or 16 the four meetings that happened between Harch and April. 17 MS. KARASE: That’s correct. 18 THE COURT: Can you -- when you say may I ask a 19 question? 20 HS. SHITH: Certainly. 21 THE COURT: When you say that they took place at 22 the airport, are you talking about the Jacksonville airport, 23 and is that where all three meetings took place? 24 HS. KARASE: At the Jacksonville airport, yes. 25 THE COURT: All three meetings? Case 1:20-mc-00212-AJN Case 113-cr-00315-WHP Document Document 42-13 15-1 Filed Filed 06/11/13 06/29/20 Page Page 33 34 of of 81 82 33 1 MS. KARASE: Yes, Your Honor. 2 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. 3 MS. SMITH: Did you verify that in fact Hamadie 4 Toure and Hr. Cilins have met and/or spoken frequently since 5 2005/2006? 6 HS. KARASE: I don’t have information about that. 7 THE COURT: Is the person you’re referencing by 8 name the person who you think is referred to as the CW in the 9 complaint? 10 HS. SMITH: It is indeed, Your Honor. She’s the 11 one who’s also an alleged conspirator in the underlying 12 Foreign Corrupt Practices Act. She is the alleged recipient 13 of the millions of wrongfully paid -- allegedly wrongfully 14 paid dollars. She’s allegedly the recipient, so therefore 15 she is an accomplice in the underlying Federal Corrupt 16 Practices Act case, should the government ever be able to 17 prove that case. 18 THE COURT: All right. 19 MS. SMITH: You’re aware that Hs. Toure and persons 20 on behalf of Hs. Toure have circulated fraudulent documents 21 since as early as 2008 and 2007 in an attempt to blackmail 22 BSGR, Hr. Cilins, and other persons and other business 23 entities doing business in Guinea. 24 MS. KARASE: No, I’m not aware of that. 25 HS. SMITH: You’re aware that all of the documents Case 1:20-mc-00212-AJN Case 113-cr-00315-WHP Document Document 42-13 15-1 Filed Filed 06/11/13 06/29/20 Page Page 34 35 of of 81 82 34 1 that Hs. Toure has in her possession are actual fraudulent 2 documents. None of them are original documents. 3 HS. KARASE: I am not aware of that, and certainly 4 your client’s valuation of those documents suggest otherwise. 5 MS. SMITH: Ms. Karase -- Karase, I’m sorry. 6 Hs. Karase, you’re aware that persons in South 7 Africa have been blackmailed or extorted either through, by, 8 or on the behalf of Hamadie Toure. 9 MS. KARASE: I’m not
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