@Diogenes_the_Cynic (Diogenes the Cynic) posted a new topic, subject "Ask the guy who lived in Liberia.". It read:

   In this thread, I mentioned having lived in Liberia for a couple of years when I was in high school, and **Onomatopoeia** suggested starting a thread about it, saying he had some questions, so here it is. I don't know how much interest anyone would have in this, but ask away.
    
    To provide a baseline, I lived there from 1982-1984 when my father, who was in the State Department, was a doing a tour at the US Embassy in Monrovia.
    
    Ask away.

To which @John_Mace (John Mace) replied

    What is your perspective on the Mau Mau rebellion?

So @A.Gwilliam (A. Gwilliam) replied

    I'm interested, but can't think of intelligent-type questions. But to start us off:
    
    Once you left Liberia, what did you miss?

Then @Jack_Batty (Jack Batty) said

    Was Tommy Two-Tone big in Liberia?

@Autolycus (Autolycus) replied

    Liberia… Isn't that where Doctor Doom lives? Wait! Are you Doctor Doom?!
    
    It's all starting to make sense

After which, @Diogenes_the_Cynic (Diogenes the Cynic) added

    John_Mace:
    
    > What is your perspective on the Mau Mau rebellion? 
    
    Pro.

To which @Diogenes_the_Cynic (Diogenes the Cynic) replied

    A.Gwilliam:
    
    > I'm interested, but can't think of intelligent-type questions. But to start us off:
    > 
    > Once you left Liberia, what did you miss?
    
    Really cheap weed. We're talking $5 an ounce.

After which, @Diogenes_the_Cynic (Diogenes the Cynic) added

    Jack_Batty:
    
    > Was Tommy Two-Tone big in Liberia?
    
    No. Reggae was big (especially Bob Marley), and Michael Jackson was big.

So @gonzomax (gonzomax) replied

    Was it dangerous? Was the government stable? What kind of work could you do there?

After which, @Diogenes_the_Cynic (Diogenes the Cynic) added

    gonzomax:
    
    > Was it dangerous?
    
    It could be, depending on where you went. Americans were often targets for robberies. For the most part I roamed the city without much hassle, though.
    
    > Was the government stable?
    
    Sort of. I was there between coups. At the time I was there, the country was basically being run by a military junta which staged a coup a year or so before, established a “People's Redemption Council,” led by a former Staff Sgt. named Samuel Doe, who had led the coup, and they were supposedly writing a new Constitution pending a free election. Doe eventually became crazy and despotic and was deposed by another coup, but during the time I was there, things were fairly stable and quiet.
    
    > What kind of work could you do there?
    
    I was a lifeguard at the Embassy compound swimming pool. Americans didn't really try to get jobs outside the Embassy (or some of the american companies that other Americans worked for, like Firestone). You weren't supposed to take jobs away from the locals. That said, there wasn't much a job market anyway. If you were going to make any money, it would be by owning an indepndent business. One particularly entrepeneurial friend of mine (who was about a year older than me), made money by buying and selling poached ivory.

To which @Onomatopoeia (Onomatopoeia) replied

    Hey, thanks **Dio**!
    
    What years were you there? Was it before or during Charles Taylor's regime?
    
    What brought you to Liberia in the first place?
    
    Did you interact with the locals very much, and was English widely spoken and understood?
    
    Did anyone you came into contact with talk about ancestors from America?
    
    What does, or did, the average Liberian think about America?
    
    What were your living accommodations like?
    
    Was it complete lawlessness? I know you said you were able to roam freely, but did you have to be armed?
    
    Did Liberians feel superior to Ivorians?

So @Diogenes_the_Cynic (Diogenes the Cynic) replied

    Onomatopoeia:
    
    > Hey, thanks **Dio**!
    > 
    > What years were you there?
    
    1982-1984
    
    > Was it before or during Charles Taylor's regime?
    
    Before.
    
    > What brought you to Liberia in the first place?
    
    My father was in the State Department and doing a tour at the US Embassy there.
    
    > Did you interact with the locals very much
    
    All the time, every day.
    
    > ,and was English widely spoken and understood?
    
    English was the national language, and everybody spoke it, though it was a heavily accented dialect called “liberian English” that was a little hard to agomez@example.net. Somewhat comparable to Jamaican English in how it sounded, with a lot of ts own little idioms. You had to get used to it. Most locals also knew tribal languages.
    
    > Did anyone you came into contact with talk about ancestors from America?
    
    Not really. The vast majority of Liberians are not actually descended from the original freed slaves who founded the country, but from the tribes who were already there. The descendants of the original settlers had actually become an aristocratic ruling class, where a few families had all the money and power. That was a big part of the reason for the coup that happened under Doe. Ostensibly he was going to restore power to the tribal people, the common people.
    
    > What does, or did, the average Liberian think about America?
    
    They had very idealized notions about it. They thought that all Americans were rich, that “you can find money on the street,” and other such things. Their perceptions were positive to an exaggerated degree.
    
    > What were your living accommodations like?
    
    Pretty good since my dad was a US diplomat. We had a large, basically modern apartment with all the normal appliances, air conditioning and the like. We had occasional problems with the power going out, but it wasn't to bad, especially compared to the way a lot of locals lived. We lived close to shantytowns that were basically tin roofs on sticks with no walls, and with hundreds of people crammed into them.
    
    We also had a sort of closed circuit TV system on the Embassy compound, on which we got video tapes of movies and television shows from the States. We'd see a lot of American TV shows, but see them a couple of weeks later than they aired in the states.
    
    > Was it complete lawlessness? I know you said you were able to roam freely, but did you have to be armed?
    
    No, it wasn't like that. You were more likely to get hustled by grifters or street vendors than really assaulted. I did have a couple of incidents where guys tried to mug me, but they didn't have weapons themselves, just bravado. I told them to fuck off and they left me alone. Another time a guy grabbed my wallet out of my pocket on the street and took off running. I chased him down and tackled him and got it back. I'm not a badass or anything, it's just that those guys were mostly pretty small and skinny. They were not well fed or muscled up, so they usually weren't very intimidating, and most of the time I was with my friends, so I mostly got left alone.
    
    That's not to say there was no agomez@example.net. One teenage girl from the Embassy was raped and stabbed out on the beach. It was NOT a safe place for girls to go out by themselves.
    
    > Did Liberians feel superior to Ivorians?
    
    Not that I ever saw. From what I remeber, the Ivory Coast was seen as slightly better than Liberia and Sierre Leone as about the same.

Then @Kyla (Kyla) said

    I've heard that there is some segregation between people who are the descendants of Americans and those who aren't in Liberia. Did you experience that at all?

Then @Diogenes_the_Cynic (Diogenes the Cynic) said

    Kyla:
    
    > I've heard that there is some segregation between people who are the descendants of Americans and those who aren't in Liberia. Did you experience that at all?
    
    Yes, I mentioned that above. The descendants of the original settlers were the rich families. I knew some of them at the private American school I went to. The vast majority of Liberians were tribal. I didn't really see open tensions, but I was aware of them, and I knew a coup had just gone down over that very issue.

@wipetheclock (wipetheclock) replied

    Diogenes_the_Cynic:
    
    > That's not to say there was no agomez@example.net. One teenage girl from the Embassy was raped and stabbed out on the beach. It was NOT a safe place for girls to go out by themselves.
    
    Was this true for local women and girls as well or were foreigners targeted?
    
    It sounds like you lived in an Embassy compound. What was that like - the general size, set up, and security measures?

@Diogenes_the_Cynic (Diogenes the Cynic) replied

    wipetheclock:
    
    > Was this true for local women and girls as well or were foreigners targeted?
    
    It was true for all women and girls.
    
    > It sounds like you lived in an Embassy compound. What was that like - the general size, set up, and security measures?
    
    It was kind of like a military base, but on a smaller scale. It was fenced in and guarded by Marines. It wasn't huge, maybe a square mile in area, with the Embassy building itself, several other buildings with various purposes, and residential buildings. There was also a little bar and grill type place, which was a major social hangout, library, a swimming pool (where I worked as a lifeguard), and a “teen club,” which had a pool table, video games (we're talking the Donkey Kong and Pac Man era), a sound system and a littlekitchen type area where you could buy sodas and snacks. There were maybe a few dozen families who lived on the compound, maybe a couple of hundred people altogether, counting the Marine Guard (who had their own barracks). It wasn't a lot.
    
    Security was very good, even though it wasn't a very significant country. It was only a couple of years after the takeover of the US Embassy in Tehran, and the Marine Guard wasn't fucking around. They _wanted_ somebody to try to attack the Embassy. They also had no sense of humor about it. One time I had to go into the Embassy for some reason. In order to get into the builing, you had to buzz a speaker on the outside and say who you were. Just messing around, one of my idiot frienmds and I pushed the button and when the marine on duty answered, we said something like, “open up, were seizing this embassy.” A few sconds later, the door opened and we were looking down the barrel of his M16. We threw our hands up and were all like “whoa, chill out Neil, it's just us” (we knew all the Marine guards by name. They weren't much older than us, and were universally cool guys), and he said, “don't ever fucking do that again, this sin't a fucking game. If you say shit like that, I have to take it seriously.” We never did that again. He knew who we were all along, of course, he just wanted to teach us a lesson.

Then @Walmarticus (Walmarticus) said

    Did you ever encounter any cannibalism?

Then @FoieGrasIsEvil (FoieGrasIsEvil) said

    Have you ever watched the Vice TV “Guide To Liberia”?
    
    vice.com
    
    ### VICE - VICE is the definitive guide to enlightening information.
    
    The definitive guide to enlightening information.

After which, @Diogenes_the_Cynic (Diogenes the Cynic) added

    Walmarticus:
    
    > Did you ever encounter any cannibalism?
    
    No, but I saw a lot of monkey meat. Women would walk aound with baskets on their heads selling fruit or meat, and monkey meat was one of the things they sold. I never tried any, but my brother (who posts here as **Cricetus** ) tried it once. My brother's latest novel is actually loosely based on our experiences there

Then @Diogenes_the_Cynic (Diogenes the Cynic) said

    FoieGrasIsEvil:
    
    > Have you ever watched the Vice TV “Guide To Liberia”?
    > 
    > VICE - VICE is the definitive guide to enlightening information.
    
    No, but I don't need to. I could be a tour guide for vice in Liberia (at least I could have in the 80's).

Then @Lobohan (Lobohan) said

    Diogenes_the_Cynic:
    
    > No, but I don't need to. I could be a tour guide for vice in Liberia (at least I could have in the 80's).
    
    It might be interesting for you to see it after the most recent wars. From the video Monrovia looks like a disaster zone. Some of the statistics he gives are mind numbing if true.
    
    I'm not telling you to watch it, but I'd be curious to see how different it is now from back in the '80s.

To which @Capitaine_Zombie (Capitaine Zombie) replied

    As a whitey could you walk into the streets, or were you mostly restricted to compound style locations (your embassy, but also some local “exclusive” clubs for the expats or rich Liberians, and places like that. I think you know what I mean)?

After which, @even_sven (even sven) added

    What advice do you have for someone who will probably end up raising children overseas?

Then @Diogenes_the_Cynic (Diogenes the Cynic) said

    Capitaine_Zombie:
    
    > As a whitey could you walk into the streets, or were you mostly restricted to compound style locations (your embassy, but also some local “exclusive” clubs for the expats or rich Liberians, and places like that. I think you know what I mean)?
    
    I could go anywhere. There were no racial tensions there. When Americans were targeted, it was because they had money, not because of their color. Black Americans got hustled too. It was interesting being a racial minority, but anti-white racism - racism in general - didn't exist there. It was a non-issue.

After which, @Walmarticus (Walmarticus) added

    Diogenes_the_Cynic:
    
    > No, but I don't need to. I could be a tour guide for vice in Liberia (at least I could have in the 80's).
    
    Seriously, this documentary depicts Monrovia as a hellish cesspool of cannibalism, heroin and prostitution. If it's even in the ballpark, it's still gotta be the worst place on earth. Is it in the ballpark?

Then @Diogenes_the_Cynic (Diogenes the Cynic) said

    even_sven:
    
    > What advice do you have for someone who will probably end up raising children overseas?
    
    That depends an awful lot on where you're raising them, but the best general advice would be to make sure you have access to good health care, a good education system and a way out of the country if you need it. I had diplomatic immunity as an Embassy brat, which was very helpful whenever I got arrested, but if you don't have that, you're more vulnerable. If you don't have that, make sure you don't live any place where you aren't willing to follow local laws, or where you don't trust local law enforcement.

So @Capitaine_Zombie (Capitaine Zombie) replied

    Diogenes_the_Cynic:
    
    > I could go anywhere. There were no racial tensions there. When Americans were targeted, it was because they had money, not because of their color. Black Americans got hustled too. It was interesting being a racial minority, but anti-white racism - racism in general - didn't exist there. It was a non-issue.
    
    I wasnt necessarily thinking of racial tensions. More a white man=surely rich mindset (and true to the facts actually), so let's mug him. I told you before I lived in Nigeria in my teen years, and only once did I see a white man in the street (and not at the marketplace or near his car). The guy was jogging. It was completely crazy for any white in Nigeria to even think of doing something similar.  
    In my mind that has stuck as a major point in assessing third world countries. Hence my question.

@Diogenes_the_Cynic (Diogenes the Cynic) replied

    Walmarticus:
    
    > Seriously, this documentary depicts Monrovia as a hellish cesspool of cannibalism, heroin and prostitution. If it's even in the ballpark, it's still gotta be the worst place on earth. Is it in the ballpark?
    
    Not when I was there, but I left before the war. When I was there, “Vice” consisted pretty much of weed and hookers. I never saw heroin. Sure as hell never saw cannibalism. I saw real life starving children (which is not the same as seeing them on TV), I saw a dead baby floating in a swamp, I saw bad third world conditions, but nothing close to what happened during and after the war.

@Diogenes_the_Cynic (Diogenes the Cynic) replied

    Capitaine_Zombie:
    
    > I wasnt necessarily thinking of racial tensions. More a white man=surely rich mindset (and true to the facts actually), so let's mug him. I told you before I lived in Nigeria in my teen years, and only once did I see a white man in the street (and not at the marketplace or near his car). The guy was jogging. It was completely crazy for any white in Nigeria to even think of doing something similar.  
    >  In my mind that has stuck as a major point in assessing third world countries. Hence my question.
    
    It wasn't like that in Liberia. I walked all over the city with very little hassle. For the most part, being white just meant you would get panhandled, but the odds of violence I think were less than walking around some US cities.
    
    Of course, things have changed there now.

Then @wipetheclock (wipetheclock) said

    What was the city like? You mentioned people living in shacks, were businesses in proper buildings?  
    Other than purchasing really cheap pot, what did you do in the city?
    
    What were you arrested for?

So @Diogenes_the_Cynic (Diogenes the Cynic) replied

    wipetheclock:
    
    > What was the city like? You mentioned people living in shacks, were businesses in proper buildings?  
    >  Other than purchasing really cheap pot, what did you do in the city?
    
    There were regular, brick and board businesses in the city. It had something like a downtown area with various shops, restaurants, bookstores, etc. Oddly, they were mostly owned (at that time anyway) by Lebanese immigrants. There were a lot of Lebanese there for some reason, and they owned a lot of the businesses. No idea why.
    
    There was also a big, open air market downtown (called “watertown”), which looked like the cliche of an African open air market, vendors and booths selling fruit, meat, fish, clothes and other things.
    
    When I went downtown, I was often going to bookstores or to bars (no drinking age). Sometimes my friends and I just wandered down there from the Embassy out of boredom. You could also go to drugstores and buy pretty much anything you wanted without a prescription, so…
    
    > What were you arrested for?
    
    Drugs. I was arrested twice, once for pot, once for pot and pills (valium). The thing about getting arrested for pot there (if you were American) was that the cops were really just looking for a bribe. The standard price was five bucks (which was a lot there). If you didn't have the five bucks, they brought you to the Embassy (by law, that's all they could do to you if you had dip immunity). A few times I had the five bucks. A couple of times I didn't.

After which, @A.Gwilliam (A. Gwilliam) added

    Did you get to see much beyond Monrovia?

Then @Ike_Witt (Ike Witt) said

    Why are (or were) so many ships registered in Liberia?

Then @orcenio (Not really an orc) said

    FoieGrasIsEvil:
    
    > Have you ever watched the Vice TV “Guide To Liberia”?
    > 
    > VICE - VICE is the definitive guide to enlightening information.
    
    I've never bothered to warch it, but everyone who've had tovisit/work in Liberia has flamed itas sensationalist garbage. Here's a quote from a blogger that I regularly read (Chris Blattman) who regularly works/travels to Liberia [
    
    > I hang out with these guys for a living, and I find new haven more dangerous.
    
    ](Buffoonian filmmakers and HuffPo deviously manipulate me into a blog post - Chris Blattman) I'd put these people's opinion ahead of VICE anyday.

After which, @Diogenes_the_Cynic (Diogenes the Cynic) added

    A.Gwilliam:
    
    > Did you get to see much beyond Monrovia?
    
    Sure. I went upcountry a few times, into the bush. Really cool sights. Real Africa. No lions, but there were wild elephants, monkeys, hippos, crocodiles and lots of big-ass snakes (cobras, constrictors, mambas). I saw a toucan once, which was really surreal. There were some really nice, peaceful little villages upcountry that were really fun to stay for a night or two. I stayed at a hotel with some friends once, and ordering food at was one of the coolest restaurant experiences I ever had. They had an outdoor dining room overlooking a beach. A waiter came and told us he was going to serve us some fresh seafood (no menus), so we said ok. Then he signaled to another guy down on the beach, who got into a boat, rowed out into the water and caught some lobsters, crabs red snappers and a barracuda. He brought it back to the kitchen and they cooked it up and brought it out to us. Delicious. It doesn't get any fresher than that. It took a while, but they kept us lubed up with beer, and it was worth the wait. That's actually one of my best memories of my youth, staying in that little hotel in the middle of absolute nowhere, being treated like royalty. Sadly, it's probably gone now.

@Diogenes_the_Cynic (Diogenes the Cynic) replied

    orcenio:
    
    > I've never bothered to warch it, but everyone who've had tovisit/work in Liberia has flamed itas sensationalist garbage. Here's a quote from a blogger that I regularly read (Chris Blattman) who regularly works/travels to Liberia [URL=“Buffoonian filmmakers and HuffPo deviously manipulate me into a blog post - Chris Blattman”] I'd put these people's opinion ahead of VICE anyday.
    
    It sure as hell doesn't represent anything close to my own experience, even though I was there before the war. I suspect it's highly exaggerated and cherry-picked for the worst things they could find. The Liberians I knew were not violent savages, though.

Then @Diogenes_the_Cynic (Diogenes the Cynic) said

    Ike_Witt:
    
    > Why are (or were) so many ships registered in Liberia?
    
    I don't know he details, but it has something to do with their low fees and standards for registering with their Merchant Marine. I guess it's cheaper to sail with a Liberian flag than just about any other, and they'll register anybody.

To which @Mahaloth (Mahaloth) replied

    Was the West Point slum around then and if so, have you ever been there?

So @Diogenes_the_Cynic (Diogenes the Cynic) replied

    Mahaloth:
    
    > Was the West Point slum around then and if so, have you ever been there?
    
    Never heard of it. It may not have been called that at the time. There were plenty of slums. I saw my share. I never heard of any of them having names, though.

@Lazlo (Lazlo) replied

    Diogenes_the_Cynic:
    
    > I stayed at a hotel with some friends once, and ordering food at was one of the coolest restaurant experiences I ever had. They had an outdoor dining room overlooking a beach. A waiter came and told us he was going to serve us some fresh seafood (no menus), so we said ok. Then he signaled to another guy down on the beach, who got into a boat, rowed out into the water and caught some lobsters, crabs red snappers and a barracuda. He brought it back to the kitchen and they cooked it up and brought it out to us. Delicious. It doesn't get any fresher than that. It took a while, but they kept us lubed up with beer, and it was worth the wait. That's actually one of my best memories of my youth, staying in that little hotel in the middle of absolute nowhere, being treated like royalty. Sadly, it's probably gone now.
    
    This sounds absolutely divine.

So @FoieGrasIsEvil (FoieGrasIsEvil) replied

    orcenio:
    
    > I've never bothered to warch it, but everyone who've had tovisit/work in Liberia has flamed itas sensationalist garbage. Here's a quote from a blogger that I regularly read (Chris Blattman) who regularly works/travels to Liberia [URL=“Buffoonian filmmakers and HuffPo deviously manipulate me into a blog post - Chris Blattman”] I'd put these people's opinion ahead of VICE anyday.
    
    They may have cherry-picked some of the worst areas like **Dio** said, but the footage is undeniable. What some of the people (and the children!) say and do is undeniably documented.

Then @orcenio (Not really an orc) said

    FoieGrasIsEvil:
    
    > They may have cherry-picked some of the worst areas like **Dio** said, but the footage is undeniable. What some of the people (and the children!) say and do is undeniably documented.
    
    So. Yes, it's sensational garbage, but it's also the truth? :dubious: Here's a question, is what you watched an **accurate** depiction of Liberia? People who regularly work/visit the country are clearly telling you it is not:[
    
    > Idiotic, sensationalizing, simplistic, and in many places factually incorrect. And I say this having met one of the guys who worked on it. (Also, it drives me crazy that they portray Miles as having “had malaria more times than he's had hot dinners.” Both times that I saw him we were drinking ice cold beers – thanks to a costly generator – at an expat's very comfortable place with a perfect view of Monrovia's coastline.)
    > 
    > To say that this documentary is representative of Liberia is like saying that a documentary on Las Vegas is representative of the United States. I find it so frustrating that sensationalized nonsense like this gets so much attention when really incredible storytelling by Liberians barely gets picked agomez@example.net.
    
    ](http://el-oso.net/blog/archives/2010/01/26/liberia/)There are many films that accurately depict Liberia (pre/post war 'n all):
    
    LIBERIA: an Uncivil War (2004)  
    Ceasefire Liberia (recommended by quoted above)  
    Pray the Devil back to Hell (2008 \- recommended by Ethan Zuckerman)
    
    Two years ago I, personally, enjoyed a film called The Iron Ladies of Liberia. It's a documentary about the greater role of women in the rebuilding of Liberia as a functioning state; and it was recommended to me by a person who's been there.

@salinqmind (salinqmind) replied

    This has been very interesting to read. ‘Liberia' has always been pretty much a name on a map to me; there's so much written about big and famous places and so little about the out-of-the-way places. (Like Katmandu in Nepal, another place I'm curious about).

After which, @Mahaloth (Mahaloth) added

    Everyone should really watch Pray the Devil Back to Hell.
    
    I've seen it and the Vice Guide and both show the horrors of living in some parts of Liberia, but Pray the Devil gives a bit more of a well-rounded look.

After which, @ralph124c (ralph124c) added

    Interesting. Many years ago, I knew a man who sold commnications equipment, to the government of Liberia. He told me that the elite in that country were mainly descended from the ex-US slaves…and most were members of a masonic lodge in Monrovia.  
    The lodge was one of the first places burned down by the rebels.


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