@StormTorrent posted a new topic, subject "(Honeycomb Alpha Yoke) Looking for RL pilot input, on sensitivities". It read:

   Hey folks,
    
    So after many searches on the internet I can't seem to find any decent info on what Real Pilots are using on this yoke for sensitivity settings. I am interested in making it life like. I would love to have a basic settings guideline to start from. I understand all planes are different but there has to be a basic place to start I would think. I mainly fly General Aviation.
    
    I have sat in the front seat of many Beavers, Otters and various helicopters doing a lot of bush flying. I have had a pretty good chance to observe Pilot input. Again I am not a Pilot.
    
    With the stock settings that come with the yoke inside MF2020 it just doesn't feel right. It seems to me that the controls are very slow to respond. I seem to have to over turn the yoke to get the plane to respond to the bank in what I feel is a reasonable amount of time or roll rate. Which then causes me to have to over correct, to stop the bank. So I end up chasing the plane all over the place. Which makes it tough to land. I seems to me that I have to do extreme inputs to get the plane to respond.
    
    Also just playing around with the yoke I notice that a 90 deg bank with the yoke shows about 45 deg in the plane. I am not sure if that is supposed to be simulated 1:1?
    
    I have been using a Saitek X-55 HOTAS previous to this. I still use the HOTAS throttle for now. But with that and yes I realize it is a different style of input system. But I could use 2 fingers to fly any of the planes all with the same sensitivity setting.
    
    Of course it will take time to get used to a yoke but it still feels way off to me. I have been trying this for sensitivity so far, seems a little better but how realistic is it? Again I am looking for a good starting point for something that resembles realism first, this is a “Simulator” after all.
    
    Thanks for your, well input.
    
    Screenshot (105)700×960 42 KB

Then @willisxdc (Roger) said

    Best starting point for ALL controllers is 0%. From there make very small changes to find your preference. Control pressure is what real pilots use to control flight. Large control inputs are usually reserved for slow regimes, during landing, etc. The more you can do without ever ‘really' moving the controls the more control you actually have. Unless you are flying a fighter or flying aerobatics there is no need for full control deflection in normal procedures.

@StormTorrent replied

    The problem was, when I make an input with the yoke with stock settings, you have to sit there and wait for the plane to respond for like, throwing a random number out there 3 seconds before plane responds. With my experience sitting in the front seat watching pilots control the plane it doesn't take 3-4 seconds for the plane to respond to each minor control input. I mean darn that would be tough flying.
    
    As far as full inputs I don't fly lock to lock on the yoke. That was used as an example and a question about if the yoke in game should follow my control inputs and if there was maybe a problem there?
    
    I am used to DCS World and racing sims in those games when I turn the wheel, stick or yoke, a 1/4 of an inch the in game wheel turns a 1/4 of an inch and as quickly as I do physically in real life. Minus whatever lag there is in Milliseconds.
    
    Again I am looking for sensitivity settings for the Honeycomb Alpha from Real World Pilots so that I can Simulate real world feel from the comfort of my humble flight sim. Or as close as I can, anyways. The problem is I'm not a pilot.
    
    Sure I can keep adjusting like everyone else until the plane responds to how I like it. But is that considered realism.
    
    This also why I posted about this, because the 35 search results I read on this exact topic. Know one ever actually posts any settings that they, a real pilot use in game for their favorite plane, that simulates what it feels like in real life or as close to.
    
    I was hoping that maybe we could change that and start a new mini database here. And I know you pilots like to share that you are actual pilots in real life, so this would be a could way to tell people, lol. /Wink /Wink.

@Ephedrin87 replied

    Concentric4675:
    
    > when I make an input with the yoke with stock settings, you have to sit there and wait for the plane to respond for like, throwing a random number out there 3 seconds before plane responds. With my experience sitting in the front seat watching pilots control the plane it doesn't take 3-4 seconds for the plane to respond to each minor control input. I mean darn that would be tough flying.
    
    Your experience is absolute right, there shouldn‘t be any delays. The control surfaces are pyhsically connected to the controls in all aircraft we have in the sim except for 787 and A320 (and some fighters). If your yoke shows a delay maie sure there is no anti virus software actively checking your input data. Sounds weird but I had this actually happen with Kaspersky years ago when my control inputs were delayed by some seconds too. Also make sure that windows doesn‘t reduce power on your USB ports.
    
    Regarding the sensitivity settings it‘s a bit of a two bladed sword: in reality, as said above, you don‘t look at the actual input or control _movement_ , you work with pressure on the control, the movement is a consequence. When I fly our WT9 I hardly move the stick at all but that‘s not possible in the sim for various reasons. One is the low resolution of the encoders in a lot of our hardware. The honeycomb alpha yoke also moves way to easy in the aileron. It‘s a good yoke but you have to make compromises. I have set my sensitivity just like you, even almost the same values. It results in more movement in straight and level flight in a C172 than it would in the real aircraft but not much. More important is that in the real aircraft I don‘t want to move the yoke at all, I just think „left“ and put some pressure on the yoke and the airplane slowly turns. In the sim there is a minimum input of eg 256/16384 and you can‘t move it slower. If we set the axis to the graph of f(x)=x (straight line, no curve, go through zero) we get what our hardware‘s resolution can deliver. This may be x= 256, then x=512,… and so on. If we set a sensitivity like you did it this input can be reduced to 1/4x, 1/2x, so the sim receives 64 while your hardware sends the 256 and so on. With a higher input it will be a steeper change but we hardly fly with a lot of input anyway except in dogfights or aerobatics. So a flat curve as you set it is a benefit for precise flying.

@StormTorrent replied

    Hi, thanks for the response. it's interesting that you said Kasperky because I actually run that. Not sure how I would check to see if it is checking a yokes input data. But I don't think that was the issue or maybe it is.
    
    In my searches I had read posts from Pilots that said they actually had their input for this yoke at 0 and it was true to life and realistic. I just can't figure out how that could be true? That's one of the reasons I was wondering if I had a problem with my yoke or not. Since I upped the sensitives the delay is gone. I am now using these settings (See Picture below) Which requires hardly any pressure. Basically flying with 1 to 2 fingers worth of pressure, for the Ailerons. Plus its responsive. Maybe a touch too twitchy on the Ailerons by about 1% too high. I think the sensitivity I have for the elevators are at a pretty decent spot. I guess I'll stop the search for true to life settings or as close as possible with this yoke and just set it up how I want it.
    
    Cheers,
    
    Screenshot (107)688×949 40.4 KB

To which @Ephedrin87 replied

    That your last sentence is what I did too. Our sim setup lacks forces and so I set it to something that I feel comfortable with. My curves are a little shallower around the center than yours now but once we get used to our setups we can enjoy it.
    
    What I found difficult with the sensitivity set to zero was the first input after x0y0 and the effect on more sensitive aircraft like for ex the Bonanza or even the aerobatic planes. I fought with the planes rather than flying them and so I decreased it to something I can deal with.
    
    Happy flying!

So @StormTorrent replied

    Yeah I guess force feedback is one of the big hold backs, isn't it. Is there actually any yokes out there that have it?
    
    With my racing set up for driving sims. I have force feedback and that does make a big difference, when you can feel when your car is about to slide out from under you.
    
    I would be interested to see what your settings actually are, if your down for sharing?

@MaritimePoet632 (Maritime Poet 632) replied

    Real pilot here, I use the default settings and they are quite good.

@StormTorrent replied

    Huh, interesting, how sensitivities can be so far apart for everyone. It makes me wonder if there is some kind of issue with my set up…

So @willisxdc (Roger) replied

    Concentric4675:
    
    > Huh, interesting, how sensitivities can be so far apart for everyone.
    
    This is not raymondhunt@example.com.  
    The fact that you were asking for a “RL pilot input” says it all. There is an ongoing issue between what simpilots and real pilots consider accurate and “real” control response. This is then aggravated by real pilots that have limited experience in computer sims.
    
    Simpilots have been conditioned to inaccurate aircraft flight models for years. They have no idea how a real airplane responds to control inputs in different flight conditions. They only know what they have felt before.
    
    Real pilots that have limited time flying sims, are conditioned to feel the controls with the appropriate aerodynamic forces acting on them. They immediately feel the controls to be over sensitive.
    
    The reality is that in most cases, with good quality, high resolution (more than 8bit) controllers, the control response is actually very close in MSFS when sensitivities are left at 0%. The lack of control pressures induced by the force of air on the control surfaces makes it very important for the user to understand that the faster the aircraft is travelling the less force required on the sim controls to prevent overcontrolling.
    
    Practice slow ‘pressure' to achieve control rather than ‘moving' the controls. Continue adding ‘pressure' until the desired response is observed. Releasing pressure to center the control should result in the aircraft continuing to exhibit the attitude you put it in, with some tendency to return to equilibrium. Remember to put the plane in the attitude you want and stop inputting command until you want to change the attitude again. This is only achievable with coordinated flight and by adjusting power and trim to maintain the desired attitude. Every change in attitude will require the corresponding change in trim and power to hold that equilibrium.
    
    Every aircraft is different and the attitude changes will have different effects. just remember that it is all achieved with varying levels of control ‘pressures' not by ‘moving' the controls.

After which, @StormTorrent added

    willisxdc:
    
    > Simpilots have been conditioned to inaccurate aircraft flight models for years. They have no ideal how a real airplane responds to control inputs in different flight conditions. They only know what they have felt before.
    
    I understand what people have been saying. You don't have to be a pilot to understand that there is going to be differences between the sim and real life. I was trying to get my Sim experience closer to real life. Again I don't make huge yoke movements, I have already said that a few times.
    
    Just like driving a vehicle in real life, I understand that you don't have to turn your steering wheel 90 degrees to make a normal corner driving down the highway.
    
    I just find it hard to wrap my head around that when I set my controls to “0” that, that would be 1 step closer to real life. There is a 3-4 second lag response between the control input and response from the plane. Are you saying that in real life if you put a little pressure on the yoke it takes 3 seconds for the plane to respond in anyway? Because that's what happens when I set sensitivities to “0”
    
    I couldn't imagine trying to land a plane with a 3-4 second lag between every input you make to correct for some wind shear or turbulence.

Then @willisxdc (Roger) said

    Agree.  
    The lag in your controls aside for the moment. I was not trying to cast aspersions on your abilities or understanding. I was merely pointing out why there are so many differing opinions on the subject.
    
    The lag though. That one has me scratching my head. I have not experienced any delay from command to response. I agree it would make flying VERY difficult indeed.
    
    Have you fired up the windows calibration tool and looked to see if there is any lag appearing there? I have to assume that there is something interfering with the control communication. It sounds like something is buffering between the controller and the sim.
    
    Anything running in the background, like FSUIPC or similar?

To which @StormTorrent replied

    If you mean the Windows “Control Panel” where you can check the properties of each controller. Then yeah I have checked there, doesn't really seem to be anything out of the ordinary.
    
    Someone mentioned that they had problems with Antivirus Kaspersky mainly, actively checking their control inputs. Not sure how you would even check that. Now I actually run Kaspersky but it was installed a few weeks after, I had bought the Alpha Yoke. So I don't see there being a problem there. This issue was right from the get go.
    
    I guess with all the different computer hardware variations out their, its just too dam tough to figure out realistic settings. Like you folks mention, with no counter force or any force acting on our controls, its even tougher. Plus one persons perception is different from another's. I would imagine a force feed back yoke would probably make it a little easier to simulate, depending on how accurate the force feed back was.
    
    Now to figure out how to get my Mooney out of this hangar that it partially spawned in, in the middle of the tarmac…  
    
    
    Screenshot (184)2552×1439 311 KB

@Vibstronium (Vibstronium) replied

    There absolutely should NOT be a 3-4 second lag on input; something is wrong with your setup, unfortunately I cannot guess what it could be. 
    
    (Not a real pilot, but yes a real Honeycomb Alpha owner  )

@willisxdc (Roger) replied

    Concentric4675:
    
    > where you can check the properties of each controller.
    
    Not to nitpick but did you use the calibration tool and look at the little bars moving on the display, in concert with your inputs? Do they move without delay? I have a feeling there may be an issue with your firmware calibration.
    
    There are a couple videos out there that explain the “secret” calibration mode. I am not going to be the one to help you muck up your controller so I'll give you this one instead.

Then @StormTorrent said

    willisxdc:
    
    > Not to nitpick but did you use the calibration tool and look at the little bars moving on the display, in concert with your inputs?
    
    Yes I opened up the calibration tool when I plugged in the controller everything looked good there and it still does. I can touch the controller with a feather so to speak and the little cross hair moves, in what I would expect to be the proper amount in the properties window. Centered as well.
    
    I posted a picture of the settings I resorted to in game above already. To make the plane respond in a timely fashion. Again what “I” think a timely manner should feel like, hence me asking for real pilot input on settings for a realistic flight control. Judging by the responses everyone here your controls are set at “0” and everything is fine.
    
    I have seen that fellas video before thanks, but I haven't wanted to take the plunge and screw something up worse, actually I think it was an older video he made. And maybe it is a larger dead zone then should have been there…Having said that it doesn't feel like a dead zone. It's just slower to respond is the only way I can explain it. Hence the having to add +35% sensitivity to get a responsive input for the aircraft.
    
    I don't believe it is a USB power issue I run Force feed back racing sim wheels. With no issues. I don't run any 3rd party controller software.
    
    The delay is between the controller and MSFS 2020, I guess.
    
    Before anyone asks. 3900X CPU, Gigabyte x570 Master MB, 32Gb 3600mhz Ram. Corsair MP600 M.2 drive for main and MP510 for Secondary drive. Drivers updated.

After which, @willisxdc (Roger) added

    Have you talked to Honeycomb? This seems really odd to me and smacks of a soft/firm ware issue. It should not be delaying. (not like that is an epiphany  )

So @StormTorrent replied

    Nope I haven't talked to Honey Comb. I wasn't sure if it was just me or an actual issue. This is my first Yoke. Before this I have always used a HOTAS system for DCS so I really wasn't sure what to expect.
    
    Which is why the delay/sensitivity was a bit of a surprise to me. But using a stick and flying high performance combat jets in DCS is a little bit different then General Aviation in MFS2020.
    
    So I guess, to get this straight these settings at least for roll would be considered maybe higher than necessary even though, that's what is required for “me” to feel like the aircraft is responding in a natural way. It's so hard when everything is based on ones own perception lol. I am actually down to 34% right now I was just too lazy to load up and take another screen shot.
    
    Screenshot (107)688×949 40.4 KB

@willisxdc (Roger) replied

    I guess what concerns me with those settings is that it will be impossible to send “1” to the sim. That, to me, takes away my fine control. I seldom use AP with anything other than airliners, where, technically it is required. I usually always handfly my approaches. That is what I use the sim for. Without that fine control, I would hesitate to slide a King Air down the slope in 0 vis.

Then @StormTorrent said

    Yeah I don't know what to say about it. With those settings I seem to have good control. Hand flying is pretty much all I do. I haven't sat down with a good YouTube video and figured out how to do ILS approaches and what not, yet. Which Is why I don't fly Airliners.
    
    So, maybe there is an issue and those sensitivity settings are making up for it. It seems I have to do 5 hours of maintenance for every 1 hour of flight time, lol. With yoke issues and mod/game updates and bugs etc.
    
    I do plan on going back and trying “0” for sensitivities at some point or resetting everything to whatever default was, if it was indeed 0. On a new settings profile. Then maybe contacting Honey Comb and getting their thoughts on it, as you suggested.
    
    To all you folks that responded. “Thank You”

To which @ProneManager476 (Prone Manager476) replied

    A bit late to the party here, but just curious, what joystick are you using?
    
    I have a gladiator NXT and have been experimenting a LOT with the sensitivity. Recently i have started using it at 0% and flying more by «pressure» the only thing that bums me out is that its so easy to overcontrol once you need to fly more than straight and level

So @willisxdc (Roger) replied

    Talk about late…  
    I have been away awhile.
    
    I have an ancient Sidewinder. The primary axis is optical but really the advantage to that is just eliminating any stutter.
    
    It takes a lot of finesse to learn to fly with light pressure rather than sensitivity adjustments, but before long you learn to fly by attitude control rather than reacting to the motion of the aircraft. Overcontrolling is seldom a stick issue. It is usually due to “chasing” the aircraft.
    
    Put the aircraft in the desired attitude, trim it to stay there, wait for the airspeed and attitude to stabilize before making further adjustments. That is how I fly a real aircraft. Only difference here is the physical feedback you get in the real thing.
    
    Practice. Practice. Practice. = Precision.


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