@romansperson (romansperson) posted a new topic, subject "Amtrak advice". It read:

   So I'm thinking of making a brief round trip to NYC next month.
    
    The place I need to go to is in midtown Manhattan, and the Carolinian could take me from Durham, NC to Penn Station. Depending on which ticket I buy, I'd be looking at roughly $275-300 for a round trip. I'd go up the day before I need to be there and come back the day after.
    
    Am I nuts for doing this? We're talking an entire day, pretty much, each way. But flying sucks and I'd have to get myself from whatever airport I'd arrive at to midtown at additional hassle and expense. I've also heard of significant delays on Amtrak, though, and I don't want to end up getting into town at 3 am or something.
    
    Also, are there any decent hotels within a few blocks of Penn that don't cost a fortune?

After which, @friedo (friedo) added

    That's basically a 12-hour train ride. Whether you think that's better than a 2-hour flight from RDU to New York is up to you. I think it probably isn't.
    
    romansperson:
    
    > Also, are there any decent hotels within a few blocks of Penn that don't cost a fortune?
    
    The Hotel Pennsylvania is across the street. Whether it's decent is a subject of much debate.

To which @Peremensoe (Peremensoe) replied

    But it's not really just a two-hour flight, is it? There's getting to and from the airports, and there's the security theater.
    
    What I see for the train ride is 11 hours, and $190-$286.

@Spiderman (Spiderman) replied

    I've stayed in the Affinia a couple of times, which is a block south of Hotel Pennsylvania between 30th & 31st on 7th. The company still uses it though my group gets one closer to our (satellite) work location.  
    1.) Amtrak's _always_ on time.  
    2.) Go to lower Manhattan; there's a really cool, old bridge that will take you into another borough. I currently own it; it's for sale, I'll cut you a great deal.  
    One of the above two sentences is believable.

So @Alley_Dweller (Alley Dweller) replied

    Peremensoe:
    
    > But it's not really just a two-hour flight, is it? There's getting to and from the airports, and there's the security theater.
    > 
    > What I see for the train ride is 11 hours, and $190-$286.
    
    Why do train fans presume that everyone lives inside the train station and can just roll out of bed into the train the very moment the train is scheduled to leave, but that the airport is two states away, there's a blizzard, and two tanker trunks of gasoline have just collided on the highway? I find this very puzzling.
    
    My apologies if you do live inside the train station.

After which, @friedo (friedo) added

    Alley_Dweller:
    
    > Why do train fans presume that everyone lives inside the train station and can just roll out of bed into the train the very moment the train is scheduled to leave, but that the airport is two states away, there's a blizzard, and two tanker trunks of gasoline have just collided on the highway? I find this very puzzling.
    > 
    > My apologies if you do live inside the train station.
    
    Hey, I'm a train fan too. But I'm also practical. Most train stations are at city centers (or close to them) whereas airports usually aren't. Compare the locations of Penn Station to LGA or JFK.
    
    That said, I can't think of any reason to justify this particular train trip over a flight. Especially if you go into LGA. Security isn't as bad as you think. And commute times from LGA to Manhattan and Raleigh to RDU are not onerous.

Then @Mr_Downtown (Mr Downtown) said

    Because Amtrak lines people up to board the train 10 minutes before departure time.* Airlines have _already closed the gate_ 10 minutes before departure time, and want you to be there at least an hour earlier.
    
    *At Chicago Union Station, Penn Station, and the other places where they use the idiotic airplane-style boarding. At most Amtrak stations, you can arrive 15 seconds before departure. And I have, on occasion.

So @SeaDragonTattoo (SeaDragonTattoo) replied

    I think it depends on whether you want to look at the train trip as an adventure on its own and have time to do it, and aren't the type to get bored hanging out in the same place after 2 hours.
    
    I'd do the train as a fun trip in itself, but only if I have the time for it. Check out any station stops that are long (there's an Amtrak I take to Missouri with a 2 hour layover in St. Louis, everybody leaves and goes shopping or out to eat).
    
    I would also only make that long a train ride with a cabin of some sort, or at least business class. Well, I don't do any train trip without business class. If it's too short a trip to have at least a business car then I'll be driving.

After which, @Tom_Tildrum (Tom Tildrum) added

    Food on an Amtrak train will be much worse than what you would encounter in an airport.
    
    I think Amtrak is less likely to be late, but when it is, it might be catastrophically late. You could wind up stuck on the train for an extra ten hours, eating that train food (or wishing you had that bad train food, after they have run out).

After which, @even_sven (even sven) added

    Nm

Then @even_sven (even sven) said

    I adore long train rides. For me, there is something infinitely relaxing about sitting down in my seat and know there is absolutely nothing I will need to do for the next X hours beyond looking at the scenery. I love train stations. I love packing a little picnic. I love everything about it.
    
    If you have time and have never done a long train ride, I say go for it. It's an adventure of its own and worth doing at least once in a lifetime. Bring a couple good books and a bag of snacks and enjoy the ride.
    
    For most routes it won't be as efficient as air, especially given Amtrak's notorious delays. That's not usually the best lens to elee@example.org. A long train trip is something else, the way that a road trip or ferry ride are different creatures.

Then @romansperson (romansperson) said

    I do have time for the train trip, and I like train travel. The location of the stations is also much more convenient for me than the airports on either end. I wouldn't be considering the train at all if that weren't the case. A business class ticket wouldn't save me any money over a plane trip, but there'd be no additional expenses for me such as parking and transportation to/from like there would be for the airport.
    
    friedo:
    
    > The Hotel Pennsylvania is across the street. Whether it's decent is a subject of much debate.
    
    Funny you should mention that.

After which, @romansperson (romansperson) added

    even_sven:
    
    > I adore long train rides. For me, there is something infinitely relaxing about sitting down in my seat and know there is absolutely nothing I will need to do for the next X hours beyond looking at the scenery. I love train stations. I love packing a little picnic. I love everything about it.
    > 
    > If you have time and have never done a long train ride, I say go for it. It's an adventure of its own and worth doing at least once in a lifetime. Bring a couple good books and a bag of snacks and enjoy the ride.
    > 
    > For most routes it won't be as efficient as air, especially given Amtrak's notorious delays. That's not usually the best lens to elee@example.org. A long train trip is something else, the way that a road trip or ferry ride are different creatures.
    
    Yes, I pretty much feel like this too - the part that concerns me is the possibility of delays, and of course the fact that it's winter makes that more likely if the weather decides to not cooperate.

After which, @iiandyiiii (iiandyiiii) added

    even_sven:
    
    > I adore long train rides. For me, there is something infinitely relaxing about sitting down in my seat and know there is absolutely nothing I will need to do for the next X hours beyond looking at the scenery. I love train stations. I love packing a little picnic. I love everything about it.
    > 
    > If you have time and have never done a long train ride, I say go for it. It's an adventure of its own and worth doing at least once in a lifetime. Bring a couple good books and a bag of snacks and enjoy the ride.
    > 
    > For most routes it won't be as efficient as air, especially given Amtrak's notorious delays. That's not usually the best lens to elee@example.org. A long train trip is something else, the way that a road trip or ferry ride are different creatures.
    
    Seconded. I love train rides – time to read and relax and have no responsibilities. And the seats are big and comfy.

To which @Peremensoe (Peremensoe) replied

    Tom_Tildrum:
    
    > Food on an Amtrak train will be much worse than what you would encounter in an airport.
    > 
    > I think Amtrak is less likely to be late, but when it is, it might be catastrophically late. You could wind up stuck on the train for an extra ten hours, eating that train food (or wishing you had that bad train food, after they have run out).
    
    You don't have to eat the train elee@example.org. Bring your own basket, and a bottle of wine.

So @Peremensoe (Peremensoe) replied

    romansperson:
    
    > Yes, I pretty much feel like this too - the part that concerns me is the possibility of delays, and of course the fact that it's winter makes that more likely if the weather decides to not cooperate.
    
    The worst travel delay I ever experienced was in a plane, in winter. We ended up being stuck on the runway, periodically getting the wings de-iced, for longer than it eould have taken to drive the whole way.
    
    It takes a bigger blizzard to stop a train.

To which @Quercus (Quercus) replied

    romansperson:
    
    > Yes, I pretty much feel like this too - the part that concerns me is the possibility of delays, and of course the fact that it's winter makes that more likely if the weather decides to not cooperate.
    
    Peremensoe:
    
    > The worst travel delay I ever experienced was in a plane, in winter. We ended up being stuck on the runway, periodically getting the wings de-iced, for longer than it eould have taken to drive the whole way.
    > 
    > It takes a bigger blizzard to stop a train.
    
    Yeah, I'm not saying trains never have problems, but, well, it does take a bigger blizzard to stop a train than a plane.  
    And, the train seats are built for normal humans, not by cost-obsessed airline executives vying to find the smallest possible seat space that won't result in lawsuits for permanently crippling passengers, you can get up and walk around on a train, go play cards in the club car, or whatever, be using your laptop the entire way, and can bring your own drinks and nail clippers on board without paying for luggage. Plus there are usually designated quiet cars where cell phone conversations aren't allowed! Food is pretty darn mediocre on Amtrak, but it's not like I've heard people raving about the quality and inexpensiveness of US airline food.  
    For something like downtown Providence, RI to NYC, it's a no-brainer. 5 minutes to and from the station each end, plus 5 minutes to wait for the train and 3 hours travel, versus 40-60 minutes travelling to/from airports, half an hour boarding/waiting, half an hour for security theater, and an hour and half flight, plus 20 minutes waiting for luggage if needed. I make that 3:15 vs 3:00 or 3:20 flying.
    
    Personally, I'm not sure that I'd train from Raleigh to NYC, but I can see the attraction of it; especially if it's a for-fun trip where the train might add to the fun and relaxation of it.  
    Just be sure to buy your Amtrak ticket early enough to get the super saver fares or whatever they're called; otherwise the cost starts to become out of line.

So @Quartz (Quartz) replied

    friedo:
    
    > That's basically a 12-hour train ride.
    
    Does Amtrak run a sleeper service?

After which, @Lord_Feldon (Lord Feldon) added

    Quercus:
    
    > And, the train seats are built for normal humans, not by cost-obsessed airline executives vying to find the smallest possible seat space that won't result in lawsuits for permanently crippling passengers, you can get up and walk around on a train, go play cards in the club car, or whatever, be using your laptop the entire way, and can bring your own drinks and nail clippers on board without paying for luggage. Plus there are usually designated quiet cars where cell phone conversations aren't allowed! Food is pretty darn mediocre on Amtrak, but it's not like I've heard people raving about the quality and inexpensiveness of US airline food.
    
    Aren't those amenities on the train sort of a point against it? It's nice that you can stretch your legs, drink multiple beverages, have a meal, and play cards on the train, but you only need to do those things in the first place because you're stuck on the train longer.
    
    I guess everybody values different things, though.

So @Asimovian (Asimovian) replied

    Lord_Feldon:
    
    > Aren't those amenities on the train sort of a point against it? It's nice that you can stretch your legs, drink multiple beverages, have a meal, and play cards on the train, but you only need to do those things because **you're stuck on the train** longer.
    
    Bolding mine.
    
    I understand this point of view, but again, the OP (and I, and others) actually find riding the train pleasant. So it's not a feeling of being stuck. It's leisurely travel BECAUSE you're able to do those things. And therefore, elee@example.org.

@Lsura (Lsura) replied

    iiandyiiii:
    
    > And the seats are big and comfy.
    
    Unless you get stuck, as I did on my last long train ride, next to someone with ELBOWS. (it was the week before Thanksgiving, so the train was more crowded than usual.)

Then @Maus_Magill (Maus Magill) said

    My brother has made that trip several times. Overall, it's not bad. Be warned though, the rails south of DC are owned by Norfolk Southern, and their (slow, long) freight trains take priority. There is a very real chance you will spend several hours sitting on a siding.

@romansperson (romansperson) replied

    Maus_Magill:
    
    > My brother has made that trip several times. Overall, it's not bad. Be warned though, the rails south of DC are owned by Norfolk Southern, and their (slow, long) freight trains take priority. There is a very real chance you will spend several hours sitting on a siding.
    
    Good intel, thanks!!

So @friedo (friedo) replied

    Quartz:
    
    > Does Amtrak run a sleeper service?
    
    Not on the Carolinian service.

After which, @supersizeme (supersizeme) added

    Maus_Magill:
    
    > My brother has made that trip several times. Overall, it's not bad. Be warned though, the rails south of DC are owned by Norfolk Southern, and their (slow, long) freight trains take priority. There is a very real chance you will spend several hours sitting on a siding.
    
    Can attest to this. Basically, expect to be delayed south of DC and plan your day in NYC accordingly. Also, don't expect the wifi on the train to work.

To which @Pixel_Dent (Pixel_Dent) replied

    One tip. Because the Carolinian makes a big loop between Durham and Rocky Mount, lots of people in this area just drive to Rocky Mount and pick up the train there which cuts 2 hours off the trip.
    
    I've never taken the train as far as New York, but going from Raleigh to DC is a pleasant trip on the Carolinian or Silver Star with big comfy seats and power for my laptop. There are a few areas where you go out of cell coverage and can't use wifi (either the train's or your own hotspot), but those are few and brief in duration. The worst delay we've seen is about 20 minutes going from Raleigh to DC. (Technically Amtrak has priority on the tracks, but the government agency that's supposed to enforce this doesn't actually have anyone assigned to enforce it and the dispatchers work for Norfolk Southern).

Then @romansperson (romansperson) said

    Pixel_Dent:
    
    > One tip. Because the Carolinian makes a big loop between Durham and Rocky Mount, lots of people in this area just drive to Rocky Mount and pick up the train there which cuts 2 hours off the trip.
    > 
    > I've never taken the train as far as New York, but going from Raleigh to DC is a pleasant trip on the Carolinian or Silver Star with big comfy seats and power for my laptop. There are a few areas where you go out of cell coverage and can't use wifi (either the train's or your own hotspot), but those are few and brief in duration. The worst delay we've seen is about 20 minutes going from Raleigh to DC. (Technically Amtrak has priority on the tracks, but the government agency that's supposed to enforce this doesn't actually have anyone assigned to enforce it and the dispatchers work for Norfolk Southern).
    
    Again, good intel - thanks! I'd already decided that if I find myself needing to make a trip to DC, I'd take Amtrak for sure, but yeah, NYC is another thing altogether. If I had time I'd divide the trip into two legs, spending some time in DC in between.

@sachertorte (sachertorte) replied

    I often travel between Boston and Philadelphia. For me, the time and trouble of the train versus airport makes the two pretty equal for this trip. (I wind up taking the train from the PHL airport to 30th Street Station anyway so that gives Amtrak a bit of a leg up).
    
    Anyway, that train ride is about 6 hours:  
    Anything under that and a train is clearly better (Hello New York).  
    Anything over that and I'm flying (Baltimore, DC and anything further south).
    
    I suggest you fly.

After which, @friedo (friedo) added

    sachertorte:
    
    > I often travel between Boston and Philadelphia. For me, the time and trouble of the train versus airport makes the two pretty equal for this trip. (I wind up taking the train from the PHL airport to 30th Street Station anyway so that gives Amtrak a bit of a leg up).
    > 
    > Anyway, that train ride is about 6 hours:  
    >  Anything under that and a train is clearly better (Hello New York).  
    >  Anything over that and I'm flying (Baltimore, DC and anything further south).
    > 
    > I suggest you fly.
    
    Note also that the Boston - Philly route is mostly on NEC track owned by Amtrak and Metro-North. All other Amtrak services run via trackage rights on freight railroads, which are not incentivized to give Amtrak dispatch priority (even though they're supposed to) and whose mainlines are not always maintained to passenger rail standards.

After which, @Enright3 (Enright3) added

    I've taken the Crescent line from Atlanta to both Washington and to New Orleans. I enjoyed both of them quite well. Yeah the trip is 12 hours, but even the coach seats on a train lean back with feet rests. You can walk around, go to the dining car, play cards or a game in a dining booth. Full access to electrical outlets right next to your seats. Unfortunately no wifi yet out of Durham, is there?
    
    Train travel isn't for everyone. At least some of the posters above have never tried it, and are saying why it's a bad idea; and for them it isn't a valid alternative. I've done both, and all things considered I'd always consider the train until there was a compelling reason not to. If you have time on your side, it's a lot less hassle, and a lot more comfortable.

@snowthx (snowthx) replied

    sachertorte:
    
    > I often travel between Boston and Philadelphia. For me, the time and trouble of the train versus airport makes the two pretty equal for this trip. (I wind up taking the train from the PHL airport to 30th Street Station anyway so that gives Amtrak a bit of a leg up).
    > 
    > Anyway, that train ride is about 6 hours:  
    >  Anything under that and a train is clearly better (Hello New York).  
    >  Anything over that and I'm flying (Baltimore, DC and anything further south).
    > 
    > I suggest you fly.
    
    I agree with this. I could not comment on the east coast train experience, but I have used Amtrak in CA for both long distance and inter-city trips, as well as the airports between northern and southern CA. For inter-city, like between Sacramento and SF, or LA area to Santa Barbara or San Diego, the train is a great alternative to driving. But between NorCal and SoCal, the airlines are much better.
    
    I have also done Amtrak from the central coast to Sacramento and it is a one-train-a-day, 9 hour ordeal (I could have driven it in half the time if I had a car). And dawg forbid there is a mechanical issue.

Then @Dorjan (Dorjän) said

    For me, riding the train is more for the experience than convenience. Sure it takes forever, but that's part of the charm! We took the Lakeshore Limited from Cleveland-NYC. Took most of the day, but there was a lounge car and a dining car which made things enjoyable. When we arrived at Penn Station we just hopped on the A-train to Harlem and stayed at the Harlem Flophouse. Only stayed there one night (spend the rest of the NYC trip in Midtown Manhattan) but it was an enjoyable and classic intro to NYC.
    
    We've also taken VIA Rail from Toronto to Montreal, the experience was very similar.

After which, @Ruken (Ruken) added

    This is funny:
    
    Spiderman:
    
    > 1.) Amtrak's _always_ on time.
    
    And wrong. Amtrak publishes on-time performance for each line for anyone interested in facts.

@Peremensoe (Peremensoe) replied

    Dorjan:
    
    > …it was an enjoyable and classic intro to NYC.
    
    It's so much nicer, more fun, more… civilized?.. arriving right downtown, right into the real city, rather than plowing through the boring, ugly, traffic-clogged highways and suburbs.
    
    The only thing that's maybe better than arriving by train is arriving by boat, stepping off onto an old pier.

Then @romansperson (romansperson) said

    Peremensoe:
    
    > It's so much nicer, more fun, more… civilized?.. arriving right downtown, right into the real city, rather than plowing through the boring, ugly, traffic-clogged highways and suburbs.
    > 
    > The only thing that's maybe better than arriving by train is arriving by boat, stepping off onto an old pier.
    
    Yep. Flying these days has all the charm of third-world bus travel, minus the livestock.

@Alex_from_CB (Alex from CB) replied

    I'll have a report from a family member taking the train from Raleigh to NYC Penn Station in February. He's taking to just experience the ride.

So @Ruken (Ruken) replied

    Alex_from_CB:
    
    > He's taking to just experience the ride.
    
    And that can be reason enough. I've taken long train rides for less than practical reasons. Definitely not the thing to do if in a hurry, but it's interesting to meet people and see the country change.

@romansperson (romansperson) replied

    Alex_from_CB:
    
    > I'll have a report from a family member taking the train from Raleigh to NYC Penn Station in February. He's taking to just experience the ride.
    
    I think that's really the best reason to do it.

After which, @Mama_Zappa (Mama Zappa) added

    romansperson:
    
    > So I'm thinking of making a brief round trip to NYC next month.
    > 
    > The place I need to go to is in midtown Manhattan, and the Carolinian could take me from Durham, NC to Penn Station. Depending on which ticket I buy, I'd be looking at roughly $275-300 for a round trip. I'd go up the day before I need to be there and come back the day after.
    > 
    > Am I nuts for doing this? We're talking an entire day, pretty much, each way. But flying sucks and I'd have to get myself from whatever airport I'd arrive at to midtown at additional hassle and expense. I've also heard of significant delays on Amtrak, though, and I don't want to end up getting into town at 3 am or something.
    > 
    > Also, are there any decent hotels within a few blocks of Penn that don't cost a fortune?
    
    We stayed at a Fairview Inn in Chelsea (28th street, I think) that wasn't bad and included breakfast (fairly rare in NYC hotels).
    
    Last time we went, we stayed at the Hotel Edison on west 47th street. It's quite walkable from Penn Station (we walked from the hotel to the bus at 30th street on the return trip) and it's pretty affordable by NYC prices.
    
    If you did get in at 3 AM, there are always cabs to take you wherever - with both of these locations I had no issue walking there at 11 PM, but at 3 AM (especially with luggage) I don't think I'd do it just for the sheer hassle of it.
    
    Depending on when you arrive and when you depart, luggage can be an issue. There are no lockers at Penn Station so you can't just lock your bags up there when you arrive and pick them up when you are ready to get to your hotel (or on the return trip, lock them up after you check out, and pick them up when it's time to get your return train). The hotels will usually be glad to hold your luggage for the day even before checkin / after checkout.

To which @Mama_Zappa (Mama Zappa) replied

    romansperson:
    
    > …  
    >  (Hotel Pennsylvania)  
    >  Funny you should mention that.
    
    Oh dear. I hope that doesn't mean you just paid a nonrefundable fee for a room there? If so, and you do stay there, leave your luggage behind - DO NOT BRING IT HOME WITH YOU unless you're eager to spend the next 18 months trying to rid your house of bedbugs.
    
    Seriously - the place has a pretty bad reputation for bedbugs.

@bibliophage (bibliophage) replied

    Ruken:
    
    > Amtrak publishes on-time performance for each line for anyone interested in facts.
    
    The figures are available here. As noted above, outside the Northeast Corridor (Washington-Boston), Amtrak trains often have to yield to freight trains. Some lines like the Vermonter have better on-time records than the NEC, but most including the Carolinian are worse.
    
    romansperson:
    
    > Yep. Flying these days has all the charm of third-world bus travel, minus the livestock.
    
    Dude, we are the livestock.

@romansperson (romansperson) replied

    Mama_Zappa:
    
    > Oh dear. I hope that doesn't mean you just paid a nonrefundable fee for a room there? If so, and you do stay there, leave your luggage behind - DO NOT BRING IT HOME WITH YOU unless you're eager to spend the next 18 months trying to rid your house of bedbugs.
    > 
    > Seriously - the place has a pretty bad reputation for bedbugs.
    
    No, I wouldn't be staying there, but the event I was considering attending will be there. Maybe my choice of dress for the evening should be a hazmat suit?

@aruvqan (aruvqan) replied

    even_sven:
    
    > I adore long train rides. For me, there is something infinitely relaxing about sitting down in my seat and know there is absolutely nothing I will need to do for the next X hours beyond looking at the scenery. I love train stations. I love packing a little picnic. I love everything about it.
    > 
    > If you have time and have never done a long train ride, I say go for it. It's an adventure of its own and worth doing at least once in a lifetime. Bring a couple good books and a bag of snacks and enjoy the ride.
    > 
    > For most routes it won't be as efficient as air, especially given Amtrak's notorious delays. That's not usually the best lens to elee@example.org. A long train trip is something else, the way that a road trip or ferry ride are different creatures.
    
    Back in the early to mid 90s I did the Newport News VA to New London CT trip a couple times each year.
    
    I will say that getting on the train in NN I could have my choice of seat [not sure if they have changed to assigned seating now?] however the closer one gets to NY the more people are aboard and the more difficult it is to find a good seat [IE not next to the bathroom] so that may come into effect.
    
    I do like a long relaxing train ride [don't have to drive =) ] and made sure to have adequate reading material, a walkman with a decent selection of music and headphones instead of earbuds, and I always packed a couple bottles of water and snacks [I took homemade granola bars and a couple sandwiches, with whatever fruit we had on hand] and my own throw blanket so I had a comfy sort of nook-experience going on.

Then @tim-n-va (tim-n-va) said

    I've stayed at a hampton inn about a block from Madison Square Garden/Penn Station. Typical of that chain, free continental breakfast. Generally have found that if it the next day is a business day the rates are high, you can catch good deals for a Fri/Sat or even a Sun of a holiday weekend.

@JRDelirious (JRDelirious) replied

    Depending on dates, I have found good deals in the past at the La Quinta and NYMA hotels ( same owners, Apple Core Hotels) on E 32d near 5th, 2 blocks from the East entrance to Penn Station.

To which @alphaboi867 (alphaboi867) replied

    Peremensoe:
    
    > You don't have to eat the train elee@example.org. Bring your own basket, and a bottle of wine.
    
    IIRC you need to have a sleeping compartment to drink your own alcohol on board, but I could be wrong.

Then @Peremensoe (Peremensoe) said

    alphaboi867:
    
    > IIRC you need to have a sleeping compartment to drink your own alcohol on board, but I could be wrong.
    
    That does appear to be the official policy. But if you're low-key, nobody's going to ask what's in your cups.


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