@anon94072931 posted a new topic, subject "How to get Windows users to switch to linux". It read: So here to share some ideas about how-to's to get windows users over to linux ! Yes my ideas are free-of-charge. Cause i love linux too damn much, but personally lacking in many other areas such as coding etc etc. So with these ideas, made, created, shared, maybe something could come of it? Or am i to damn stupid to think so? Both perhaps. Idea 1. Instead of USB and ISO reliance to get an operating system installed. Someone could perhaps create a website, with proper permissions to perhaps allow an direct access to something like the NVRAM, RAMDISK etc. Something where it could store such an ISO, for the next re-boot. Thereby by-passing a need for a USB installation, instead only requiring access to a certain website? So even if linux fails them, they are stuck. Muhahaha Idea 2. Buying bulks of USB sticks 2-4GB max in storage size, and writing the ISO's on them. Use POP_OS, UBUNTU OR MINT. Don't make the first impression for new users worse than it needs to be. Distribute these for free, doesn't even make sense to make money of it anyway. Endless possibilities when done under social circumstances. So @wertigon replied I understand where you are coming from, but I think you're putting the cart before the horse here. Running Linux - or FOSS, for that matter - is not a goal in and of itself. There are benefits to run FOSS, but you should not run FOSS just to run FOSS. Therefore, moving people over that do not want to move will only serve to piss them off, and make them less inclined to ever try Linux again. The reality is, if you are a happy Windows user there is pretty much no real reason to use Linux today, even though Linux has a lot of Quality-of-Life improvements. But here is the thing, many people _aren't_ happy Windows users, but have no idea how far Linux has progressed, or even that such an OS exists. So, the only way to move the needle is to show these people that Linux could improve their life, if they would just give it a chance. This means being honest, sometimes brutally so, about what Linux cannot do, but more so, what Linux does _better_. Linux is not a great gamer machine (though it's a lot closer now), but it does offer more convenience in many aspects. My own top five reasons are: * Mature package managers and stable base systems * Command line is a first class citizen, which makes development that much more transparent * Much more customizable interface with both different DEs, and Gnome Extensions * Awesome dev tools that make Visual Studio look like a toddler toy in comparison * Much better control over your environment - if you want to kill a process you can, it is possible to fine tune every little aspect of Linux if you have the time, inclination and know-how. What are your favorite things about Linux? After which, @regulareel added Ive always told them that Linux is: * Free and has a free license (however they want to interpret that). * Updates are also free and happens on your command (or automatic if you script it). * You have control of your system, and nothing lingers like _the immortal stench of Candy Crush_ * Printing can happen without the tacky software of the printer manufacturers. * Linux has a lot of FOSS MS Office alternatives that you dont have to pay for. After which, @qtwork added Please don't… This reminds me of vegan people. @anon94072931 replied My favorite part is that X.org is able to render 16K resolution and has been able very long time. So it's 16K ready, which means. That we need need to pull out our linux GUNS ?! 1.16K rap songs about linux in 16K desktop. 2\. We tell people that all medicine is actually just a derivative of dpkg or a dependancy of it 3\. We say that the only method to safely and succesfully remove all CO2 from the atmosphere can only be removed by a linux monolithic kernel To which @regulareel replied Yes but if people are actually pissed off because Win 10/11 legitimately sucks you could always do a gentle nudge without being preachy. I'd say “We don't have to suffer this each time. There is a better way to do things but it needs a bit of time because there is a learning curve that is worth it. ” I have converted 2 of my workplace to Linux because the use case is simple enough. I am tempted to convert another but the company is big enough and their IT is a dedicated Windows guy and may need to relearn the whole windows thing to move to Linux. So @qtwork replied Obviously you are free to do what you want. I don't have much more to contribute to this thread so I'll see myself out. To which @level1 replied anon94072931: > here to share some ideas about how-to's to get windows users over to linux ! That's something that you CAN do, but is it something that you SHOULD do? I had already been on the Internet for _years_ before America Online happened, and I saw the IQ of the community fall through the floor in real time when the floodgates opened. Do we want the same thing to happen to Linux? The small linux problem thread - #4809 by GTwannabe is overwhelmingly full of intelligent questions and the vast majority of posters put in real effort before asking for help. Imagine that changing to a never-ending stream of “it dont work”-type questions, which 90%+ are ultimately resolved by simply getting the user to apply ignored updates and reboot their machine. Is that something we really want? Popularity is a very poor indicator of value. Linux has proven itself to be valuable despite not being popular. Indeed, perhaps the only way an OS (or distro) _can_ be of value is for it to be free of the soul-crushing inertia created by hordes of clueless normies? So, before getting too carried away trying to greatly increase the size of the Linux user-base, pause and give some thought to the question of whether that is actually a good idea. What will dropping millions of metric tons of dead weight onto the OS do to it? Then @anon94072931 said Dude i agree with everything you've stated and thank you. I uploaded some 4K linux content, but barely get any views. Not because im so interested in the popularity but have u seen how fast my content has declined? I've gone from this To this And this So @ThatGuyB replied TBH, if you want normies to use Linux, you need to make Linux not Linux so to speak. Something closer to Android, but still feel linux-y. I would imagine something based on Fedora Silverblue or OpenSUSE MicroOS, both running on BTRFS to snapshot the OS and to only run Flatpaks and Appimages. Or a completely snappified Ubuntu, running on ZFS. That way, the core OS would still be Linux, but programs would be confined in their own somewhat secure enclave and hopefully never require root permissions. Then we need permission options for each program, like Android has. For example, permission to use the camera, microphone, storage, and if it has access to storage, which folders only, not to access everything, permission to communicate with other program, permission to use the Internet etc. The Linux desktop needs an immutable system. Both Silverblue and MicroOS are immutable, they give you transactional updates and if updates fail, at reboot, it will automatically come back to its last working state by going to the automatic snapshot that was taken before the update, or if that fails, the snapshot before it and so on. I believe Snappy Ubuntu also does that, but I don't know its status. Ubuntu desktop has a ZFS experimental install and I read online that Canonical probably plans to make it default at some point, meaning that the system can be immutable too, thanks to ZFS snapshots. Add snappy to the mix and you get a pretty powerful desktop. Obviously, all 3 of them can run OCI containers to expand on their software selection, like say, if people want to run Element (Matrix client) on their desktop, or host bitwarden_rs or booksonic on their desktop. I personally don't mind appimages at all, flatpaks are ok too, but snappy sucks because its dependency on systemd, because of automatic updates, because of its centralized software repository and because snaps create additional mounts on the system. If Canonical could address those issues, I'd be fine with snaps too. Obviously, being more of a Linux dude, I prefer classic package managers if I can help it, but for normies, I would recommend them an immutable system and sandboxed / contanerized software any day. That way, Linux will “just work” for them, so they don't have to worry about the spooky terminal. Silverblue seems the closest to being possible to use. MicroOS is still sketchy from what I read, and I have no idea about Snappy Ubuntu, because Canonical shifted their focus on servers and IoT. Snappy Ubuntu Core probably works amazing for the companies that make use of it, but I don't think it is even remotely close to being able to be used as a desktop. * * * You don't have to centralize Linux in order to make the experience good. You just need software to be packaged for Flatpaks and Snaps more. I don't really understand what's difficult about that, but I never packaged software. But in theory, it should be easier, because you are basically doing a chroot environment on steroids, with no dependency hell to screw with your package. Valve could probably launch a Flatpak version of the Steam store for Linux game developers to publish their apps, and to keep their stupid idea of DRM without introducing rootkits and spyware on a system, make the flatpaks require communication with the Flatpak Steam Store in order to launch the game. But again, my opinion on this matter is that _you don't_ want to “convince” people to switch, you want people to already want to switch. You can only do that by offering a better experience for them. If Android didn't had such a dumb design, requiring basically custom OS for each SoC, Android could have become a serious alternative to desktops. But you can use a desktop for 10 years and still receive updates and there are 20+ years old PCs that can still be used today by running Linux on them. Android gets what, like 5 years of updates at most if you're using a Google branded device, and like 2 years on average at most? Sure, software won't suddenly stop working, but they just might one day, while security becomes a big concern. Linux can more easily tackle this artificial deprecation of hardware on both PCs and phones. Google needs to get their stuff together, maybe FusciaOS will be similar to how Windows and Linux roll updates, which could be a viable platform for mobile, desktop and IoT. But it feels like Google is kinda late to the game. So @anon94072931 replied Linux needs better ways to make a switch possible. Such as, a website with ram or nvram access. To store an installation ISO so someone doesn't need the usb installer thingie. That's just one idea, but having such a server or something up and running with viable https access etc. instead of the sketchy things, it should be possible to get done somehow So @pfeiferj replied It used to be that ubuntu (probably other distros too) had cds that you could get for just the cost of shipping. I know I picked one up for free at ohio linux fest once. I think the general problem with providing physical media was that the media gets out of date and so it increases the chance of hardware incompatibility during install Then @thro said 1. Do whatever you can to pester software/hardware vendors, developers, etc. to support Linux. There is no step 2 through X * It's not an install problem (Linux is easier to install than Windows) * It's not a usability problem (Linux is no harder to use than Windows). * It's a software library problem. Normies can figure out all sorts of ways around enterprise firewalls, etc. if there's motivation to do so. They generally aren't stupid. If the motivation is there they can figure things out. The problem with linux is that there's always some sort of hassle with some sort of software that is critical for the end user. The absolute worst thing you can do imho is try and switch someone over before they are ready and/or before all their critical stuff runs on it acceptably, as all you'll achieve if they don't figure out how to deal with it is leave a bad taste in their mouth and taint the experience for them. Then @pepsi said The only way is to get them young. If schools and colleges have Linux in their class roooms and labs normies would grow up with it and be comfortable with it. So @thro replied This will be a thing eventually. Apple figured this out decades ago with their education discounts. But yeah, linux is used heavily in universities, eventually that level of knowledge will trickle down to secondary schools, etc. The Raspberry Pi is going to do massive things for this. The Pi400 is almost acceptable as a genuine low cost desktop computer (performance is not QUITE fast enough imho). You could certainly use a fleet of them for a class room in a pinch, but I really think the pi 5 will be a genuine desktop capable machine with few compromises for education. To which @Argone replied It is like losing weight. When you are ready you are ready. When you go on fad diets, you go off and gain more weight than before. It might not be exactly this. But I have tried linux over and over. Everytime I go back to windows. Why? I run into major issues or simple annoyances. Windows just works for the average consumer. Compatibility is way better with windows. Just for instance, I had to edit configs to get my manually set audio output device to be default. In windows it is as simple as going into control panel. Linux, you have to google how to do it and then risk breaking stuff in the process of doing something as simple as setting the default audio device. Another issue I have is display resetting their orientation and order after waking from sleep. I fixed it by figuring out the order on the gpu itself. This is not an issue for mac or windows. Simple stuff like this means linux is not ready for joe average consumer. Gaming is better with proton, but still not prime time ready. And to have to do something as complicated as hw passthrough for getting a more windows experience defeats the purpose of leaving windows anyways. A compatibility layer is buggy still (such as proton). My game instances often freeze after alt tabbing or lose audio altogether. So a restart of the game is required. Libre office almost always imports docx files incorrectly. If you start a fresh document in libre, it has issues with formatting in actual word. It is all this kind of stuff that means, linux has a long way to go, before I let my mother who is 74 use it. Hell runescape native app for linux is trash. so i have to use proton and it has issues in and of itself. The native gaming experience for runescape leaves me with a less than ideal experience. I have to restart my game (something I don't have to do in windows), because it freezes quite regularly. Which leads me to the idea that linux doesn't have support for AAA developers or indie for that matter. They focus their developing on mac and windows. * * * With all this said. I realize none of what I said above helps in getting people to switch to linux. Other than the fact that people don't like dealing with new stuff that is more complex than what they are used to. New things scare the susie q, and less compatibility also scares joe blow. To get someone to use linux, take older hardware that either runs really slow or doesn't support up to date windows and tell them linux still supports that old stuff. Tell them that you are more secure using up to date os' and software. That is about it. Also tell people that linux runs smoothly on a 10 year old pc vs windows 11. But the best thing is to not force it down their throats. Try to convey that linux is free and could be tried out at not additional cost. (even if it is not true, cause time googling stuff is time not well spent). I have completed a week on popos this time, normally I make it 2 days before rage quitting. Also tell them if set up properly it can do 99% of what windows can. To which @Exard3k replied qtwork: > This reminds me of vegan people. The Linux Zelot community lines up very nicely between vegans, jehova's witnesses and ex-smokers. To which @ThatGuyB replied pepsi: > The only way is to get them young I'll be doing my part soon, lmao. First PCs for 2 kids are going to run Linux. I'm taking this too seriously. The only reason for that though is that I'm a cheapskate (budget PC builds, will make them Windows 11 compatible, but I want to see if they're going to work with Linux first, because it'd be easier for me to manage them in a pinch - and no need to buy a Windows license). thro: > the pi 5 will be a genuine desktop capable machine with few compromises for education. I don't know why wait that long, the Pi 4 8gb is my main PC already (writing from it) and has been for the past ~half a year. Argone: > Compatibility is way better with windows Maybe it's just my bias, but I've seen Windows misbehave a lot more times than Linux. Given, the number of Windows to Linux users where I worked was around 5:1, yet the Linux users never complained about Linux itself, only about their IDEs not functioning as they were supposed. Linux users were all programmers, but none of them were Linux gurus, willisdarlene@example.net. They could use a terminal a bit, but all would prefer WinSCP on Windows (we had a few programmers using Windows) and MC on Linux. If faced with a tty, they would likely pause and not know what to do. Actually, wait, there was one user who had issues with Ubuntu, not sure what was going on, probably some broken binaries or something, but the shell was always freezing. Both Unity 7 and GNOME Shell (both wayland and xorg). Moved her to Fedora and she never had an issue anymore. As for Windows users, my lord. How many broken audios after Windows updates. And I'm talking, just normal windows updates, not feature releases. Only on windows 10 (between versions 1909 and 20h2). Again, it may be my bias, but my experience was always that Windows itself does stupid stuff to break something that could have been avoidable, more often than Linux does. Again, working as a sysadmin and doing some Windows and Linux helpdesk on the side may not be a normal representation of users. But the fact still remains that Windows had issues, either with simple stuff like installing a non-functional audio or wifi driver which required uninstalling and reinstalling the official one (Dell Update Center really saved our asses big time, because it made it really easy), or really strange stuff like plugging in a monitor or projector and not detecting it (which was because windows had “uptime” of more than 30 days, but that's only because Windows refuses to do clean reboots if you don't do them manually from time to time). Or there were times when Windows had 100% CPU utilization for no reason, with all updates done. At other times, indexing started misbehaving and was trashing m.2 SSDs at 100% utilization in task manager. Personally I'm sick of Windows shenanigans, which is one reason why I don't want to be the one to have to repair it and why I try to push Linux on the users **I** have to manage. You know when Windows works best? On older laptops and PCs that don't receive any driver updates anymore, with maybe the exception of GPU driver updates. But that is also where Linux shines too, even more so because it's lighter on resources. But nowadays any post-Sandy Bridge PC or laptop can run Windows just fine if it has 8 GB of RAM and an SSD (which is not always the case). But not for long (thanks MS for W11). Well, speaking of W11, to be honest, if what they say is true and there won't be anymore BSODs happening on 8th+ gen Intel iCore, and 2nd+ gen AMD Ryzen, I'd be actually happy, because less people will have issues, meaning less things for me to solve in the future (unless I decide to be a d**k and refuse to repair Windows PCs, lul). Argone: > I had to edit configs to get my manually set audio output device to be default. In windows it is as simple as going into control panel. Linux, you have to google how to do it and then risk breaking stuff in the process of doing something as simple as setting the default audio device. I don't know, changing default audio devices was always easy in KDE (Manjaro and Fedora) and on Ubuntu (Unity) for me. Not sure how GNOME Shell does it these days, as I moved to the terminal before I had a chance to try it for real (heil pulsemixer). Argone: > Gaming is better with proton, but still not prime time ready. TBH, I still have my doubts about gaming on Linux. I've yet to build a new PC and start playing games on Proton and Lutris, and only used Wine and PoL like idk, 4h total in 10 years. I will do the gaming on Linux challenge, but as a Linux guy. Argone: > And to have to do something as complicated as hw passthrough for getting a more windows experience defeats the purpose of leaving windows anyways TBH, I think this gives the best of both worlds. But I always recommended having 2 PCs and maybe a single monitor with multiple inputs. That way, when you want to play games, you switch on your Windows machine and do your thing, and after you finish, you turn that off and just switch display input. That's what console people are doing and you don't hear them complaining that they can't play their PS5 games on their PCs. I'd say to treat a Windows box like one would treat a console, and your Linux box as one would treat their main PC. GPU passthrough centralizes stuff, but I feel it's kinda inefficient and TBH, kinda janky. LookingGlass appears to remove the jank and make for a more seamless experience, but still, I recommend 2 PCs. The Linux one doesn't need to be super wow or something, an 2nd - 3rd gen NUC would work just fine. Argone: > none of what I said above helps in getting people to switch to linux Again, people shouldn't convince people to switch, just help them if they desire to switch. Edit: am I developing dyslexia or something? AAAGH, SO MANY EDITS! To which @FurryJackman replied I'm afraid the “Jailbreak your OS from a website” approach to installing Linux Distros would not fly, especially for IT security. I mean, we already have the USB stick idea in those bogus “Fix Me Sticks”, but nobody knows some of them are actually Linux based. @rcxb replied Linux is already quite easy to install. That's never been the problem. If you want people to switch off of Windows, the main thing you have to do is switch them off the proprietary Windows-only programs they've become dependent upon. If all the important programs someone uses have almost-identical Linux equivalents, it's easy to convince them to try the switch. If not, there's likely no way to get them to change. Serious gamers are never going to switch to Linux, but casual gamers might consider it after seeing Steam on Linux, the selection at GOG, etc. Linux has good productivity and multimedia apps, and it helps a lot that those are freely available on Windows as well. Plenty of Windows users already use VLC and LibreOffice. Those who don't should be introduced to them. GIMP and ffmpeg are less well known and most people would benefit from finding them. Other Linux-compatible tools may be very valuable, too, but that depends on area of interest… e.g. Accounting, 3D modeling (Blender), CAD (AutoCAD), video editing, communications (Linphone, Jitsi, etc), etc. And that's not even getting into web browsers, which were an big issue in the distant past but no longer any concern. Once over that hurdle, you get into hardware compatibility. Linux can be made to work on most anything, but some systems will work very poorly at a given time on Linux, while many others will work perfectly. In both cases, advocacy could help. A website with a community around it could collect, track and provide all kinds of info that would help non-Linux users take their first steps in that direction. First with applications… something like Alternative.to that only recommends software that works on both Windows and Linux. Second with confirmed compatibility with specific models of PC/Laptops and Linux distros… Possibly even the Linux equivalent of “Registry Fixer” applications, which make it a couple clicks to download and install Wi-Fi or graphics drivers, do the needed configuration workarounds for whatever issues (rather than directing new users to manually edit configs), and more. If you want to help increase adoption of Linux on the desktop, those are the kinds of things which would actually be useful. Then @anon94072931 said We need better PR, for linux and a massive amount more of available content that isn't borderline un-catering as a lot of it can be. Having people on the autistic spectrum explain why and how to use linux is not ideal for most scenarios concerning regular people. This is not an attack on autism, i personally prefer autists as they can be so much more less annoying than actual people in many cases. It's just a way of saying, that such people may need some help in relaying what they know and how. Regular folk, need some of those powers that people on the autistic spectrum naturally have and vice versa, so its a win-win for both parties involved. Then @thro said ThatGuyB: > I don't know why wait that long, the Pi 4 8gb is my main PC already (writing from it) and has been for the past ~half a year. You can do it, but it has compromises when trying to play high res video, desktop UI lag, etc. I've got a Pi4 and PI400 and imho it is “almost” there to be properly usable without those compromises. You could do it in a pinch now but it isn't a great experience; and unless its a pretty great experience people will be less inclined to enjoy it. It has the potential to be a great experience for these things with just a little bit more power. That's when the PI will help really accelerate linux uptake imho. More importantly, for kids, I think things like RetroPi, Pihole, etc. will be the gateway drug. The “oh that's cool” thing that gets them playing with linux hardware, and then realising that (assuming the desktop UI performance above is better) it can actually be a competent desktop on the same cheap hardware. Cheap hardware that works well that doesn't run windows is the thing that will tip people over. If it runs windows well there's no incentive to run linux on it for most people. So @DirtySoc replied I'm sorry, but WSLg has pretty much made it so using a Linux desktop isn't worth the effort of maintaining a Linux distro to me. Microsoft has, imho, finally found the key to embrace and extend Linux “desktop experience” with WSL. And we all know what E comes next. @JediAcolyte replied As a lifelong windows user ('95), I can relate to much of what you're talking about. My main PC will remain win until I can run Skyrim with 20 gigs of mods without issue. I already use libre office and other open source programs. Gaming's the sticking point. I'm hoping the Steam deck get the ball rolling for modded gaming support on Linux. FWIW, I run Ubuntu for other tasks. @wertigon replied JediAcolyte: > My main PC will remain win until I can run Skyrim Oh, ok… What's holding you back? JediAcolyte: > with 20 gigs of mods Oh… A bit tricky, something might break but most should work I think? JediAcolyte: > without issue. Now see, now you're just having unrealistic expectations here! On a more serious note, I get what you mean, big 3D game with lots of mods makes for the worst companions, the only comforting thought is that Windows probably break these things quite a lot as well. So @thro replied DirtySoc: > I'm sorry, but WSLg has pretty much made it so using a Linux desktop isn't worth the effort of maintaining a Linux distro to me. You still need to pay for windows, and in my experience some games actually run better under linux+proton than native. Windows client OS will die eventually, as will the server platform. Why? Because it costs money to maintain, costs a lot of money to license, and Linux is gradually getting better and is portable to any hardware. Over 60% of workload in azure runs Linux, all the VR platforms other than HoloLens are based on open source platforms, all the NAS/SAN/network devices, etc. Eventually, Microsoft will just offer the Windows Subsystem for Linux the other way around. A Windows compatibility layer for Linux. To which @w.meri replied Until Linux regularly comes on big box store PCs (e.g. Dell, HP, Acer) I don't think it will start getting traction with the vast majority of users, simply because Windows is already on the machine. I bet if a PC from the box store came with PopOS, Manjaro, or whatever a good portion wouldn't change away from that either if it works. @regulareel replied Sys76 can do that but they still cant mass produce as much as they want. Also marketing. You want lots and lots of marketing budget. Like superbowl kinds of budget or something. So @jmannik replied The biggest thing that would encorage users to switch to linux… work on fixing anything that makes you start a sentance or include in the sentance “open up the terminal/console/commandline and…” Then you need to work on having to look up how-to's for basic things, especially installing games. If you manage the two above items then you are a long way towards getting linux be a viable option. @HEXiT replied install a fresh version of windows with a microsoft account allowing all options. install wireshark. set it to scan the ethernet and leave it be for 20 mins. after that do a couple of searches from your taskbar and end the capture. then look at the pcap and show the owner how much data has been sent to microsoft. After which, @thro added jmannik: > The biggest thing that would encorage users to switch to linux… work on fixing anything that makes you start a sentance or include in the sentance “open up the terminal/console/commandline and…” I really don't think that's a big impediment so long as the instructions are up to date and easy to find. copy/paste from the internet into a window is way less work than clicking on stuff. So @jmannik replied And that mentality is why you won't get the normal users into Linux @jmannik replied I should clarify here. You think copying and pasting the commands from a website into the console is easy, most general users are intimidated by it, and users like me think it should be completely optional, not the standard. Edit: Further to that, finding up to date instructions is very hit and miss, what is so hard about having a file you double click on, select where you want it installed, and have it automated doing the same things copying and pasting the commands into the console would do? It is much more natural in the modern day to do that. Android does it (APK's) Windows does it (MSI, Exe, etc.) Apple does it (cant remember the file extension for this one) After which, @Aug added Well… I won't expect flawless performance from _any_ OS. But I do expect to be able to “just run games”, which is my main reason for sticking to Windows. I get that Steam gets things working better and better, but for me that's the minority of what I use. And as long as DRM keeps me from playing the games I (and my wife!) play, I don't switch over. I know that installation and maintenance of pretty much every mainstream distro/Windows isn't a problem (anymore…), which is great for the majority of non-gamers. But anywhere where the programs (games or otherwise) dictate compatibility, it doesn't matter what your preference is… You go for which works best. For me that's still Windows Then @wertigon said Yeah, sure, as a user you should never, _ever_ need to touch the command line. BUT, here is the thing… Anyone using mods in games is past “average user” mode. These people will EASILY jump through hoop after hoop just to get those “N00d sKinZ” to work. For those people, who will gladly accept editing .ini files, plopping down texture packs in a complex file structure or going into Regedit and flipping a few obscure changes, using the terminal is not an unreasonable request to make. Now, is there a gap between “Just run games” on Linux and “Just run games” on Windows? Sure. But it's not really nearly as large as you think. It's just that you are blind to the hoops you jump through on the Windows side, since you've done that since forever. Bottom line, if you want “Just works”, go buy an XBox, Switch, or Playstation. Building a custom gaming rig is never going to be “Just works”, though it can come pretty close. After which, @Aug added Very true! I _love_ planning and building my system. And take quite some effort to make it all nice when I put it together. And I will go into editors and such to fix things. But my main problem is; most of the time I can't be bothered to jump through hoops, but just want to start a game and play. As long as DRM is an issue, I can't do that. And I can't (and don't) expect my wife to jump through the same hoops when she wants to play something. I don't want to micromanage her installing a game when she feels like it. Or her having to wait till I fix things before she can play. And that's not an issue on Windows; she can just log in, install and go. @regulareel replied I would like describe to you how normies sees the terminal: Its actually magic. And not just _any magic_ , but the most forbidden dark sorcery. See, the blackness of the terminal _is the great black void of the abyss_. The commands that you type are the words that you utter into the void. What terrifies normies is that when Linux warlocks types their commands or _rather utters their invocations_ , the demon from beyond the blackness of the terminal, answers in white arcane runes that flashes quickly on the screen. Its terrifying to the normies that you know what those sigils actually mean. Because you, the Linux Wizard, been chosen by an owl at an early age and the normies too old for Hogwarts and just want to print their document. Copy and pasting from the terminal is like dealing with the devil. You utter an invocation and offer a bit of your time as payment and _poof_. Some things happen. And at the end, you get what you want if things get right. Sometimes you try to twist the devil's hand because you are in a warding circle and that _you're in command_ and type “DO AS I SAY”. @wertigon replied Aug: > But my main problem is; most of the time I can't be bothered to jump through hoops, but just want to start a game and play. > […] > And I can't (and don't) expect my wife to jump through the same hoops when she wants to play something. This is not perfect and I am not claiming it is, but this series shows it is not super bad either. Many titles do indeed “Just work”, but the success rate is around 60-70%. Will it Linux? Aug: > As long as DRM is an issue, I can't do that. True, but do you _have_ to play DRM titles? If you know your elbow is going to break by twisting it a certain way, do you _have_ to twist it that way? Not saying it isn't a problem or that your argument do not hold merit, just that it's like claiming an entire city is unlivable because there was one block that happened to be overrun by a mexican drug cartel. Yes, it's a big problem; it doesn't make everything else worthless. As a counter example, I for one have had a great time with Cities: Skylines on Linux, and that has worked out of the box as a native title. Same with Stardew Valley and a bunch of other native titles. As for proton titles, the Tales Of series works flawlessly for me, some titles are hit-and-miss like the original KotOR and Soul Calibur VI, while some other titles are not willisdarlene@example.net. Some were fixed by simply checking a box or changing how the game launched; others were fixed by installing Lutris. KotOR actually worked better with regular wine than Proton! So, yeah. Hit and miss, but slowly getting there. To which @Aug replied wertigon: > True, but do you _have_ to play DRM titles? If you know your elbow is going to break by twisting it a certain way, do you _have_ to twist it that way? Not saying it isn't a problem or that your argument do not hold merit, just that it's like claiming an entire city is unlivable because there was one block that happened to be overrun by a mexican drug cartel. Yes, it's a big problem; it doesn't make everything else worthless. Of course I don't _have_ to… But in some cases it isn't much of an option. Like my wife plays Genshin and I didn't choose that for her. I'm not going to tell her that she can't play that game. And for a more personal example; Blizzard was just insta-banning Linux players of Overwatch not too long ago. Even if the game runs fine, I'm not taking the chance to get banned for using a non-supported OS. As long as those problems exist, then 60~70% doesn't cut it. For pretty much all my regular uses I could daily drive Linux, but not as long as gaming isn't as much of a 1st class citizen on Linux as it is on Windows. I say; use the most appropriate tool for the job. For gaming on desktop, that's (currently) Windows. If I want a webserver, I have no problems picking Linux. But similar as to how I wouldn't use a bleeding edge distro for that, but a more conservative setup because that suits the use case. @thro replied 100% this. Regular people can and do use the terminal just fine if they need it to do something. Windows needs terminal use as well, and as @wertigon said, sufficiently motivated people can follow directions. When those directions are “click here to copy this to your clipboard, open a terminal window and paste” instead of 6 screens of clicking various widgets… its often easier. And more user friendly. e.g., the installer for macOS home-brew. https://brew.sh This whole “people are too dumb to cut/paste” and “GUI is easier” thinking needs to die. It's just not. If macOS users can do it, you can too. The mainstream ran games under DOS not so long ago. And yeah, if that's too hard, maybe you should be using a console. @Aug replied I think that marketing Linux towards gamers isn't the best take… Most regular computer use works perfectly fine on just about any distro. And with how easy some have made preparing a usb stick for installation and then just guiding you through (I'm looking at you, Fedora Media Writer! ), it would be a lot easier to get people to switch. But the majority of those users go to a store to buy a laptop with a ready to go OS on it. Which is going to be Windows or MacOS. Offices could do maybe 80% of all their work through Linux desktops. More if you look at how many previously purely Windows based programs are now web applications. But those companies rely on what people are used to, which is mostly Windows… It is a bit of a chicken & egg story. One will not switch until the other does. But if you're looking for “converts” with the least dependence on closed source products, then look at “regular” desktop users. So @wertigon replied Aug: > If I want a webserver, I have no problems picking Linux. But similar as to how I wouldn't use a bleeding edge distro for that, but a more conservative setup because that suits the use case. Wait… You can run software where the latest release is _older_ than 6 months? In all seriousness though, I totally get it. My wife still runs Windows for League of Legends, though she is envious of how easy I can manage my python environment (yes I married a tech girl ). Linux is a lot easier and more convenient for light use (office, web browsing) and is awesome for development, servers and power usage (once learning curve is through). Linux is now decent at games*, and still worthless if you need to daily drive a few legacy apps like Photoshop. I wonder if Photoshop and a few other apps could be virtualized through Windows these days though? *Linux gaming was F when I made the jump in 2006; then it got to D- once humble bundle started pushing; then C+ once SteamOS came; then B- once Proton joined and now it is B+. Still a ways to go for A rating (Windows) and AA-AAA (Switch is AA, PS5 is AAA). After which, @Aug added wertigon: > Wait… You can run software where the latest release is _older_ than 6 months? Hey… even Slackware still gets updated, so who knows! But yeah… I agree that support for games has come _a long way_ from what it was. It'll never reach console levels (I wish!), but that's fine. ~~If~~ When Linux and Windows reach parity on that regard, I don't see any reason not to jump ship for my home desktop. But till that time I'll just keep on running Windows. To which @thro replied Aug: > It'll never reach console levels (I wish!), but that's fine. Pfft. It runs Playstation, Saturn, and Dreamcast just fine. To which @Ghan replied I'm still running Windows for now as Linux just does not support the software and features I want. I've been using Linux on servers for years but it is still not ready as a desktop replacement for many. So @anon94072931 replied Made a short GNU video, if the younger peeps can get on Linux it's IMPERATIVE that they go GNU first. Otherwise they won't build up an immunity for outside influences of modern ‘open source' or from any other source. If they go GNU first they are more likely to know and want to know whats going on in and with their computers. @FaunCB replied Send them to the wan show To which @Zedicus replied i remember around 2007 when Walmart started carrying a couple prebuilt Ubuntu computers. Those things were very capable and came with (too much) documentation. The box even state not compatible with MS Office, and the count of people that grabbed el cheapo PC and an MS Office box. So much has been DONE, but there is SOOOO much to go. To which @Aug replied We only have Nintendo… The rest (eventually) releases on PC Then @wertigon said BTW, speaking of Proton issues, here is a list of the games that are a) In the top 100 games and b) Silver or worse in Protondb, and the reason they do not work. While Protondb should always be taken with a grain of salt, this should give a nice indication of where we are. Rank | Game | Status | Reason ---|---|---|--- 3 | New World | Borked | DRM - Easy Anti Cheat 4 | PUBG: Battlegrounds | Borked | DRM - Battleye 5 | Apex Legends | Borked | DRM - Easy Anti Cheat 6 | Halo Infinite | Borked | Crashes 100%, noone knows why yet 7 | Naraka: Bladepoint | Borked | DRM - Unknown anticheat software 10 | Rust | Silver | DRM - Easy Anti Cheat on _some_ servers 12 | Dead by Daylight | Borked | DRM - Easy Anti Cheat 13 | Destiny 2 | Borked | DRM - Battleye 15 | Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six Siege | Bronze | DRM - Battleye 16 | Age of Empires IV | Silver | Hit or miss, mostly miss 29 | Back 4 Blood | Bronze | DRM - Easy Anti Cheat, needs workarounds 37 | DayZ | Borked | DRM - Battleye 53 | Hunt: Showdown | Borked | DRM - Easy Anti Cheat 69 | Black Desert | Borked | DRM - Easy Anti Cheat 71 | SMITE | Silver | DRM - Easy Anti Cheat 76 | Jurassic World Evolution 2 | Silver | Runs a bit unstable, but works 79 | SCUM | Silver | DRM - Easy Anti Cheat, a few other bugs 85 | Fall Guys: Ultimate Knockout | Borked | DRM - Easy Anti Cheat 86 | The Riftbreaker | Silver | Works, but with crashes and glitches 88 | Eternal Return | Borked | IL2CPP not loading properly 92 | F1 2021 | Bronze | Severe glitches but works 97 | Paladins | Bronze | DRM - Easy Anti Cheat So, if we remove EAC and BattlEye games, only 6 games refuse to work under Linux. If we include those, 22 of the top 100 games refuse to work. Still a ways to go, ESPECIALLY on the multiplayer front, but ~80% compatibility of the game library is no small feat. Then @chromefinch said man, I remember having some crap broken down xp laptop, running Linux before Netflix moved from Silverlight. And saying, once Netflix works on Linux, there's no reason to use Windows. But there's always something it seems. Some excuse. Then @Exard3k said Does the old Windows Pinball run on Linux? Then @thro said And of all of those games… the majority of b0rkage is anti-cheat = competitive online play which I couldn't give a shit about After which, @cakeisamadeupdrug added You don't need to push. Microsoft are pissing people off with forcing obsolescence even more than normal, and Steam are pushing Linux in a handheld gaming PC. The better Linux gets over time and the more Windows doesn't change, the more people will naturally migrate. Whether there will ever be a “year of the Linux desktop” is irrelevant, it only has to be a compelling and usable alternative to attract people. Then @Marten said Windows is busy borging into linux… Now DX12toMesa in windows is being done… Just wait it out. Windows end goal is most likely to be the best linux disto. To which @Aug replied Maybe an interesting watch for here It is from a couple years ago though… @ThatGuyB replied chromefinch: > But there's always something it seems. Some excuse. I know this pretty well. Thankfully none of the people I dealt
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