@rainy (rainy) posted a new topic, subject "Islamic prayer always in Arabic?". It read:

   Alright, first off please excuse my ignorance on this subject. I just saw the episode of 30 days where a devoted Christian goes to live as a Muslim for a month. On of the things that gave this guy the most problems was that the Islamic prayers said at the mosque were in Arabic – he didn't like saying word he didn't know the meaning of. He eventually resolved this by visiting a Muslim studies center where they had a step by step tranlation of the prayers. Oh yeah and this (the Mosque) was somewhere in Michigan I think.
    
    Anyway, is there some reason why the congregation didn't simply say their prayers in English(or whatever language happens to be native to where they are living)?
    
    -rainy

To which @Tim_T-Bonham.net (markpadilla@example.com) replied

    I believe that the Muslim view is that any translation distorts the original somewhat, so they insist that prayers should be said in Arabic. Same for the Koran itself; translations are only ‘representations' for the benefit of non-Arabic speakers, only the original Arabic version is the authentic one.

@griffin1977 (griffin1977) replied

    rainy:
    
    > Alright, first off please excuse my ignorance on this subject. I just saw the episode of 30 days where a devoted Christian goes to live as a Muslim for a month. On of the things that gave this guy the most problems was that the Islamic prayers said at the mosque were in Arabic – he didn't like saying word he didn't know the meaning of. He eventually resolved this by visiting a Muslim studies center where they had a step by step tranlation of the prayers. Oh yeah and this (the Mosque) was somewhere in Michigan I think.
    > 
    > Anyway, is there some reason why the congregation didn't simply say their prayers in English(or whatever language happens to be native to where they are living)?
    > 
    > -rainy
    
    INA Theologist (tangent: do theologists study other religions, or just christianity ?) beleive part of islamic beleif is that the arab language itself is somewhat sacred. Hence what would be rather mundane discussions in the western world about the evolution of modern languages can be very contrevsial in the muslim world.

@yBeayf (yBeayf) replied

    The _salat_ is often translated as “prayer”, but that's not quite accurate, at least wrt the connotation it has in English. The salat is much more analogous to the Christian Divine Office, or the three obligatory Jewish prayers that are said daily. What most English speakers think of as “prayer” is better translated as “du`ah”, which is spontaneous praising of God and asking requests of Him.
    
    The vast bulk of the salat consists of recitation from the Qur'an. Each salat is divided into units called _raka'at_. At each raka'at, one is required to recite the first chapter of the Qur'an, _al-Fatihah_ , and at the first two raka'at of each of the 5 obligatory daily salat, one must also recite some additional portion of the Qur'an. As only the Arabic is considered the actual Qur'an, this part _must_ be in Arabic, full stop. Everything else in the prayer is strongly recommended to be in Arabic, but if one does not know the Arabic, it is valid to say it in one's own language.
    
    When in a mosque, the only portions of the prayer that are recited aloud are “Allahu akbar”, said whenever changing positions in the prayer; “May God hear the one who praises Him” and its response “Our Lord, for You is all praise”, said when rising from the bowing portion; and “Peace be upon you”, said twice at the end of the prayer. The recitation from the Qur'an is also said aloud by the leader of the prayer, but only at the dawn, evening, and night prayers; it's silent for the noon and afternoon ones. Everything else – the supplications that are said when bowing and prostrating, the blessings on the prophet and the confession of faith at the end of each raka'at – are said quietly and individually by each person in the congregation. So, really, it's only the recitation from the Qur'an that's required to be in Arabic; everything else can be said in one's language, and nobody would be the wiser.

@Johanna (Johanna) replied

    That was a good account of the _salat_ , **yBeayf** , and bonus points for explaining the difference between _salat_ and _du‘a'_ , because both are translated ‘prayer'. A very tiny nitpick: The word for supplicatory prayer ends with hamzah ('), while the word _du‘ah_ ending in the letter ta' marbutah (here romanized as “h”), means ‘proselytizers'. Both are derived from the triliteral root d-‘-w ‘to call'.
    
    The practice of Muslims praying _salat_ in any language is completely universal, as far as I know, with only a couple exceptions:
    
      1. Sometimes they make temporary concessions for new converts who haven't learned to say the prayers in Arabic yet.
      2. In Turkey in the era of Atatürk in the 1920s and '30s they passed laws that prayers in Turkish mosques, and the _adhan_ called from Turkish minarets, had to be made in Turkish translation, not Arabic. This was considered completely illegitimate by Muslims, and the law was repealed after Atatürk's death. Turks went right back to praying and calling in Arabic.
      3. _al-salamu ‘alaykum, ya **Opal!**_ BTW, Arabic for opal is _ubal_.
    
    
    
    As **yBeayf** noted, _du‘a'_ is freestyle and can be said either in Classical Arabic or in one's vernacular. I think most Muslims tend to mix canned prayers in Classical Arabic with ad libs in the vernacular.

After which, @Cunctator (Cunctator) added

    rainy:
    
    > Anyway, is there some reason why the congregation didn't simply say their prayers in English(or whatever language happens to be native to where they are living)?
    
    Many religions have a sacred language. It provides theological certainty and an international common language. It's not all that long ago that all official Catholic prayers were in Latin.

Then @Johanna (Johanna) said

    Whoops, I typed wrong. I meant “The practice of Muslims praying _salat_ in Arabic is completely universal.”

To which @Cillasi (Cillasi) replied

    The same reason some Roman Catholic churches still have Latin masses and Judaic temples have prayers in Hebrew and Buddhists recite mantras in whatever the original language is/was.
    
    Some things just don't translate well. Lots of prayers are said in cadence or rhythm which contributes to their mystic quality. Any religious service is a communion of spirit which is often accomplished by everyone praying in unison. The group responses in christian churches, or a recitation of the Lord's Prayer or singing a hymn are reminiscent of this.
    
    Islam isn't a western religion for the most part which is most likely the primary reason the prayers haven't been translated to English as yet. Yours is a good question, though. I wonder whether muslims in Asia recite the Qu'ran in Arabic or have translated the prayers to their native languages.
    
    rainy:
    
    > Alright, first off please excuse my ignorance on this subject. I just saw the episode of 30 days where a devoted Christian goes to live as a Muslim for a month. On of the things that gave this guy the most problems was that the Islamic prayers said at the mosque were in Arabic – he didn't like saying word he didn't know the meaning of. He eventually resolved this by visiting a Muslim studies center where they had a step by step tranlation of the prayers. Oh yeah and this (the Mosque) was somewhere in Michigan I think.
    > 
    > Anyway, is there some reason why the congregation didn't simply say their prayers in English(or whatever language happens to be native to where they are living)?
    > 
    > -rainy

To which @Johanna (Johanna) replied

    Plenty of translations of the prayer have been published, but are only for learning, as the OP observed on TV. I've heard that sometimes they tell newbies it's OK to use the translations in markpadilla@example.com. But apart from Turkey in the 1930s, I've never heard of any other examples of non-Arabic _salat_ anywhere in the markpadilla@example.com. I could be mistaken, but exceptions would have to be rare.

@Angua (Angua) replied

    Cillasi:
    
    > I wonder whether muslims in Asia recite the Qu'ran in Arabic or have translated the prayers to their native languages.
    
    No we don't. That is, if by Asia, you include India (or at least Muslims whose parents lived on the Indian subcontinent at some point). Our main prayers are in Arabic, for reasons stated elsewhere in this thread, however, our sermons are mainly given in English, although in a lot of mosques, you'll find the sermons given in Urdu or Punjabi, depending on the congregation.

After which, @rainy (rainy) added

    Thanks, yBeayf, for all the information. I really wished the show had touched on some of this, but I suppose the main focus of 30 days is the main “character's” struggle with their new situation.
    
    Cillasi:
    
    > The same reason some Roman Catholic churches still have Latin masses
    
    I thought this was the case for mass, but here deep, deep, deep in Protestant country, I wasn't really sure.
    
    -rainy

Then @yBeayf (yBeayf) said

    > The same reason some Roman Catholic churches still have Latin masses
    
    Not so much, anymore.

Then @CookingWithGas (CookingWithGas) said

    One thing I don't think was mentioned in the excellent explanations above is that the version of Arabic used in prayer and the Qur'an is classical Arabic, which is different than the modern colloquial Arabic dialects generally spoken. This is close, if not identical, to the language of Mohammed. The intent is really to preserve the original meaning (although scholars will probably tell you that the Qur'an as written today is not identical to Mohammed's Qur'an). Classical Arabic is used for formal purposes, news broadcasts, speeches, and most writing, but local dialects are spoken from day to day. My Egyptian wife (who grew up in the U.S.) speaks fluent Egyptian Arabic but does not know much classical Arabic and can't read it.
    
    I understand that there are also great pains taken to ensure than Jewish scripture is also copied exactly letter for letter each time to avoid any corruption from the original text.
    
    In contrast, the Bible has been translated and copied so many times, scholars question whether some of the original meanings have been retained. I read one speculation that the idea that Mary was literally a virgin was due to a mistranslation.
    
    IANA religious scholar but my wedding was in Arabic. And I didn't understand a word of it. Even the parts I had to say

So @rainy (rainy) replied

    CookingWithGas:
    
    > my wedding was in Arabic. And I didn't understand a word of it. Even the parts I had to say 
    
    So it was alot like a western wedding. Don't worry, your wife will explain the parts you didn't understand as you go along. 
    
    -rainy

Then @Acsenray (Acsenray) said

    Cillasi:
    
    > The same reason some Roman Catholic churches still have Latin masses and Judaic temples have prayers in Hebrew and Buddhists recite mantras in whatever the original language is/was.
    
    I believe that would be Sanskrit or Pali.
    
    What religions like Hinduism, Buddhism, and Islam have in common (which is an unusual grouping – for many characteristics Islam goes with Judaism and Christianity) is splitting these two functions of prayer apart. There are certain types of things – like getting the attention of a deity, or recitation as a duty – for which your _understanding_ of the words you're saying is less important than _saying it the right way_.
    
    The actual series of sounds are what hold the power, like a magical spell. If you're asking the deity for something specific or expressing general good feelings towards the deity, then it doesn't matter what language you use. But if you want to accomplish certain religious tasks, form is more important than sincerity.
    
    Hindu mythology is full of stories in which gods are bound against their own judgment to grant boons (often in the form of super powers) to evil individuals, because those individuals accomplished a prayer or other devotional task in the _right way_.

So @Acsenray (Acsenray) replied

    CookingWithGas:
    
    > IANA religious scholar but my wedding was in Arabic. And I didn't understand a word of it. Even the parts I had to say
    
    Substitute “Sanskrit” for “Arabic” and you have a correct statement about _my_ wedding.

@Johanna (Johanna) replied

    CookingWithGas:
    
    > One thing I don't think was mentioned in the excellent explanations above is that the version of Arabic used in prayer and the Qur'an is classical Arabic
    
    I mentioned it in post #5 _supra_. Twice.
    
    I have read Christian, Jewish, New Age, Communist, etc. literature in Arabic, and Classical Arabic is a resource any writer or speaker can draw upon, because it is the register where the full richness and resonance of the Arabic language's eloquence is turned all the way up. _Hubbiba ilayya min dunyâkum thalâth, al-nisâ' wa-al-tîb wa-al-salâh qurrat ‘ayni._ It is a mainstay of Islamic praxis to pray in Classical Arabic, but of course the roots of Classical Arabic lie far deeper than Islam, in **pagan** Arabic poetry. If neo-Pagans knew that Classical Arabic is one of the oldest living Pagan languages, they would be flocking to study it and read the _Mu‘allaqât_. How many of you Arabic students here have read any of the _Mu‘allaqâat_? It didn't start with the Qur'an. Check out Labîd, he is amazing. When you read his _qasîdah_ you'll see where the language of the Qur'ân came from. (Labîd ibn Rabî‘ah. _The Golden Ode_. Translated and with an introduction and commentary by William K. Polk; photos by William J. Mares. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1974. The Arabic text was printed in gold ink, as it was in the beginning, hung on the wall of the sacred Ka'bah. Pagan text on Pagan Ka‘bah.
    
    They put a fatwa on **Tâhâ Husayn** , perhaps the greatest Arab author of the 20th century, when he published _Fî al-shi‘r al-Jâhilî_ , a study of pre-Islamic Arabic poetry that went counter to the established views. Classical Arabic as the language of orthodox Islamic praxis. The foundation of the Classical lexicon — needed to interpret the word of Allah in the Qur'an and of the Prophet in the hadiths, and to build Islamic law — depended on Jâhilî (pre-Islamic) poetry like the _Mu‘allaqât_. When I read the _Golden Ode_ in the original Arabic it was remarkable how closely the Qur'an follows it in style.
    
    “The truest thing ever spoken by an Arab was said by Labîd.”  
    —hadith of Prophet Muhammad

To which @yBeayf (yBeayf) replied

    > They put a fatwa on Tâhâ Husayn, perhaps the greatest Arab author of the 20th century, when he published Fî al-shi‘r al-Jâhilî, a study of pre-Islamic Arabic poetry that went counter to the established views.
    
    Out of curiosity, who is “they” and what did the fatwa state? As a scholar of Arabic, I'm sure you know that a fatwa can cover anything from capital crimes to probate to the best way to wipe your ass.

@Johanna (Johanna) replied

    Oh, that's the sound of Auntie's mental joints creaking as her brain reluctantly stirs to activity. It was so many years ago I read that, I didn't recall all the details, you made me look it up. How about a cite to the _Arab Studies Quarterly_?
    
    “For such unorthodox opinions, he was branded an apostate by al-Azhar, and al-Manar magazine demanded his dismissal from the university. Under pressure, the book was withdrawn from circulation, and reissued under a different title, with the reference to Ibrahim and Isma'il deleted.”
    
    al-Azhar, a mosque+university in Cairo, has been for 1,000 years the traditional center of Islamic jurisprudence in the Sunni world. A fatwa from al-Azhar was traditionally considered the gold standard of Sunni jurisprudence. Its luster has probably dimmed a bit in recent years, after Nasser nationalized it and commandeered its curriculum, and since the rise of Wahhabi sort of extremism that rejects such traditional _fiqh_ for more hardcore stuff.
    
    Najîb Mahfûz is the Egyptian author in our own times who not only got a death fatwa from some extremist jihad group or other, an assassin actually knifed him and hurt him badly. He recovered, but after that his writing never recovered. The bastards. When they attack literature, authors, I get really mad. _Recordemos Federico García Lorca._

Then @Johanna (Johanna) said

    yBeayf:
    
    > way to wipe your ass.
    
    Is that any way to talk to a lady, _yâ akhî al-karîm_ (my respected brother)?  What would Jesus say?
    
    On the topic of Arabic and crude language…
    
    Lenny Bruce once stated that there are no dirty words in Yiddish. I feel similarly about Classical Arabic. In the book _Sandstorms_ *, American Arabic translator Peter Theroux told how he was in Saudi Arabia watching an American movie with some Arabs. They expressed their hatred of America by shouting at the heroine: “ _Ayrî fîk, yâ qahbah!_ ” Theroux translated this expression loosely as “Fuck you, bitch!” But the literal translation is “May my penis be in thee, O harlot!” It may serve the same obscene purpose, but stylistically it's just in a whole different register from English gutter talk.
    
    *"[A] stunningly candid portrait of culture and politics in the Middle East." — _Los Angeles Times Book Review_

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