From brittneyanderson@example.org Sat Jun 01 07:22:22 2002 Return-Path: <brittneyanderson@example.org> Delivered-To: brittneyanderson@example.org Received: (qmail 7267 invoked by uid 500); 1 Jun 2002 07:22:22 -0000 Mailing-List: contact brittneyanderson@example.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk list-help: <mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org> list-unsubscribe: <mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org> list-post: <mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org> Delivered-To: mailing list brittneyanderson@example.org Received: (qmail 7253 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2002 07:22:21 -0000 Sender: brittneyanderson@example.org Message-ID: <brittneyanderson@example.org> Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 00:20:56 -0700 From: Medi Montaseri <brittneyanderson@example.org> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2-2 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "brittneyanderson@example.org" <brittneyanderson@example.org> Subject: Video On Demand Project Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N Hi, I am considering a Just-For-Fun Video On Demand Project and am wondering if I can jump start it by pinging your guys first. The environment is Server would be a Linux box, running Apache behind a best case 198 K SDSL line. The movie would .... say a training lecture....imagine a garage, a white board, a camcorder and me scribilling whatever I know about Soccer.... So where do I go from here ? I got an old camcorder, that I can connect to my VCR or TV. If I was to connect this to my computer, would I need some kind of an adapter that speaks compsite TV signals and digitizes the analog signals and then writes the bits to a file. What are these called, Frame Grabber/Video Capture Card? How about the software for these Frame Grabbers. Recall I'm on Linux, and many of these card vendors don't know how to spell Linux... I see many file formats, which format do I use? I read something about MPEG 2 with PS and TS . How about RAM files (RealAudio) and ... I need help sorting these out... Ok...so now I have recorded something and created a file on the disk, got my web pages all setup and I'm ready to serve. So now comes invokation of some streaming server to push the content of the file out to client. I guess that would be a mod_perl or CGI, so I still need some program. What do I use for that. Can I just use HTTP to serve the file. I also read about Vido On Demand (which I think is unicast) and how bandwidth hungry it is but most appealing to clients, vs multi-casting vs broadcasting. But I think I need the Video On Demand type....so would the SDSL line do? I think that is what the streaming will solve ... right....ie one does not need to have 20 Mbits/sec connection to get some work done.... Please let me know if I should post this to some other (more) relevant group. Thanks -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Medi Montaseri brittneyanderson@example.org Unix Distributed Systems Engineer HTTP://www.CyberShell.com CyberShell Engineering ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From brittneyanderson@example.org Sat Jun 01 07:34:51 2002 Return-Path: <brittneyanderson@example.org> Delivered-To: brittneyanderson@example.org Received: (qmail 11407 invoked by uid 500); 1 Jun 2002 07:34:51 -0000 Mailing-List: contact brittneyanderson@example.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk list-help: <mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org> list-unsubscribe: <mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org> list-post: <mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org> Delivered-To: mailing list brittneyanderson@example.org Received: (qmail 11394 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2002 07:34:50 -0000 Message-Id: <brittneyanderson@example.org> X-Sender: brittneyanderson@example.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 09:34:53 +0200 To: Medi Montaseri <brittneyanderson@example.org> From: Per Einar Ellefsen <brittneyanderson@example.org> Subject: Re: Video On Demand Project Cc: "brittneyanderson@example.org" <brittneyanderson@example.org> In-Reply-To: <brittneyanderson@example.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N At 09:20 01.06.2002, Medi Montaseri wrote: >Please let me know if I should post this to some other (more) relevant >group. I think this very little mod_perl related. I don't think it's a good idea using mod_perl for that purpose either. You should try to find a video on demand mailing list of newsgroup. There must be people who know more about these things. -- Per Einar Ellefsen brittneyanderson@example.org From brittneyanderson@example.org Sat Jun 01 09:28:00 2002 Return-Path: <brittneyanderson@example.org> Delivered-To: brittneyanderson@example.org Received: (qmail 36336 invoked by uid 500); 1 Jun 2002 09:28:00 -0000 Mailing-List: contact brittneyanderson@example.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk list-help: <mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org> list-unsubscribe: <mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org> list-post: <mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org> Delivered-To: mailing list brittneyanderson@example.org Delivered-To: moderator for brittneyanderson@example.org Received: (qmail 24688 invoked from network); 31 May 2002 08:35:11 -0000 Message-ID: <brittneyanderson@example.org> From: "Burton, Craig" <brittneyanderson@example.org> To: "'brittneyanderson@example.org'" <brittneyanderson@example.org> Subject: PERL Internals access Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 18:35:15 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2654.89) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C2087E.167B8350" X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2087E.167B8350 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" If anyone there can give me some pointers to how to access the syntax tree for an executing Perl program, _from within that program_, I would be very grateful. I suspect this may not be possible. The O888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4kend system seems to require the Perl program execute with overloaded Ops (example : Terse) and so the "normal" execution of the code is forfeited. I have fiddled with Devel888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4OpProf to get at what internal opcodes have executed, but really want to have my perl program somehow obtain the same large text dump created by a -MO=Terse printing, as part of my program's execution. I don't want to call Terse over the source .pl file either... sorry! #!/usr/bin/perl my $terse_dump_of_this = foo_magic_888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4something; #code code code code Kind regards, Craig. ********************************************************************** This email is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above and may contain information that is confidential and privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this Email is strictly prohibited. When addressed to our clients, any opinions or advice contained in this Email are subject to the terms and conditions expressed in the governing KPMG client engagement letter. If you have received this Email in error, please notify us immediately by return email or telephone 858.377.9513 and destroy the original message. Thank You. **********************************************************************M ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2087E.167B8350 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 5.00.3314.2100" name=GENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=730002208-31052002>If anyone there can give me some pointers to how to access the syntax tree for an executing Perl program, _from within that program_, I would be very grateful.&nbsp; I suspect this may not be possible.&nbsp; The O888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4kend system seems to require the Perl program execute with overloaded Ops (example : Terse) and so the "normal" execution of the code is forfeited.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=730002208-31052002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=730002208-31052002>I have&nbsp;fiddled with Devel888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4OpProf to get at what internal opcodes have executed, but really want to have my perl program somehow obtain the same large text dump created by a -MO=Terse printing, as part of my program's execution.&nbsp; I don't want to call Terse over the source .pl file either... sorry!</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=730002208-31052002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=730002208-31052002>#!/usr/bin/perl</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=730002208-31052002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=730002208-31052002>my $terse_dump_of_this = foo_magic_888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4something;</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=730002208-31052002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=730002208-31052002>#code code code code</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=730002208-31052002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=730002208-31052002>Kind regards,&nbsp; Craig.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=730002208-31052002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV><CODE><FONT SIZE=3><BR> <BR> **********************************************************************<BR> This email is intended only for the use of the individual or entity<BR> named above and may contain information that is confidential and<BR> privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby <BR> notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this <BR> Email is strictly prohibited. When addressed to our clients, any<BR> opinions or advice contained in this Email are subject to the <BR> terms and conditions expressed in the governing KPMG client<BR> engagement letter. If you have received this Email in error, please<BR> notify us immediately by return email or telephone 858.377.9513<BR> and destroy the original message. Thank You. <BR> **********************************************************************M<BR> </FONT></CODE> </BODY></HTML> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2087E.167B8350-- From brittneyanderson@example.org Sat Jun 01 09:29:20 2002 Return-Path: <brittneyanderson@example.org> Delivered-To: brittneyanderson@example.org Received: (qmail 38193 invoked by uid 500); 1 Jun 2002 09:29:20 -0000 Mailing-List: contact brittneyanderson@example.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk list-help: <mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org> list-unsubscribe: <mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org> list-post: <mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org> Delivered-To: mailing list brittneyanderson@example.org Delivered-To: moderator for brittneyanderson@example.org Received: (qmail 33651 invoked from network); 31 May 2002 08:53:29 -0000 From: "Jeff Aqua" <brittneyanderson@example.org> To: "'Jesse Erlbaum'" <brittneyanderson@example.org>, "'modperl List'" <brittneyanderson@example.org> Subject: RE: separating C from V in MVC Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 09:53:26 +0100 Message-ID: <000701c20880$a4a99b10$3864a8c0@comice> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <brittneyanderson@example.org> X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N > From: Jesse Erlbaum [mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org] > Sent: 30 May 2002 22:42 > To: 'Ray Zimmerman'; modperl List; Mason List Jesse, thanks for your comments, I found them very interesting. I am comfortable with Perl and Web programming (though previously not the two together) and am about to embark on development of a new product for an ASP, so have considerable interest at this stage of the proceedings. I would like to ask some further questions, please forgive the extensive haircut of your comments: > applying a design pattern such as MVC is not a panacea I agree - I much prefer Perlish DWIM dweomer > Model: The business logic. Not related to the brittneyanderson@example.org. > View: The user interface. > Controller: The glue between the View and the Model. > ... the Model is simply a Perl module... make it entirely separate > from the user interface... the methods... being called from a web > application, a cron script, or an email-based interface Makes sense, in old-style speak [yes, I am approaching 'Ancient of Days' status] this seems to indicate the Model accepts method calls and returns data that will be rendered elsewhere. In our planned development, there is a LOT of tabular data - do you use any standards for the data being returned to the Controller? eg do you use a struct [ie hash/array Perl primitive] or do you return an object? eg a table object etc? > The View, in a web application, is really the HTML output. Sounds good, so I could also pass the Models returned data to a different flavoured rendering view eg PDF, Spreadsheet, Text etc. This sounds a lot like our existing Perl reporting infra which does exactly that. W3 did a huge amount of analysis on layout and style as part of the CSS specs. In our setup, the table objects contain lots of style info. It is easy to render complex tables in PDF [as HTML will be] but formats like Excel are very hard, as there are layout constraints [eg a column can have only one width for the entire page - we call this the 'Highlander Effect'] Is this true of your setup? does the Model returned data contain lots of style hints? Or do you leave this completely to the View layer? How does the view layer know for example to render an Error cell as RED in HTML but blue in Excel due to Excel palette limitations? > Optimally, the View avoids *ALL* application logic. mmmm - so the Model has to say RED rather than ERROR? but that wouldn't work if rendering something where RED is illegible? Our reporting knows about basic things like Error, Good, User Date / Numeric preferences etc. > At my company we use HTML888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4Template ... it's damn fast, too will look at this - is there a list somewhere? > The Controller connects the View to the Model... takes user input > ... translates it into method calls on the Model... then takes output > from the Model and passes it to your View. Sounds like Controller only interacts with one Model? I would assume that a Controller might collect data from a number of Models, and then pass the collection of data to a View? What controls the overall layout? e.g. what is the equivalent of the 'Grid Bag' layout manager - is this done in the Controller? and then passed to the View with all the data from a set of Models? Or do you make the Controller minimalist and have a meta-Model that assembles all the sub-Models into a layout. > CGI888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4pplication modules will do some reading on this also then. > separating the View from Controller is a problem. I guess this is a balance between purist and DWIMism, but as we already have this separation for reporting, I would like to extend it into our dynamic web page generation. > If you have to work with an SPS such as Mason but you still want to > separate your View from your Controller, you have to work twice as hard. Interesting! Jesse, I found your posting extremely useful - thank you very much! Regards Jeff From brittneyanderson@example.org Sat Jun 01 09:42:35 2002 Return-Path: <brittneyanderson@example.org> Delivered-To: brittneyanderson@example.org Received: (qmail 42096 invoked by uid 500); 1 Jun 2002 09:42:34 -0000 Mailing-List: contact brittneyanderson@example.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk list-help: <mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org> list-unsubscribe: <mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org> list-post: <mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org> Delivered-To: mailing list brittneyanderson@example.org Received: (qmail 42082 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2002 09:42:34 -0000 Message-ID: <brittneyanderson@example.org> Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 17:42:45 +0800 From: Stas Bekman <brittneyanderson@example.org> Organization: Hope, Humanized User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0rc2) Gecko/00200205 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Burton, Craig" <brittneyanderson@example.org> Cc: "'brittneyanderson@example.org'" <brittneyanderson@example.org> Subject: Re: PERL Internals access References: <brittneyanderson@example.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N Burton, Craig wrote: > If anyone there can give me some pointers to how to access the syntax > tree for an executing Perl program, _from within that program_, I would > be very grateful. I suspect this may not be possible. The O888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4kend > system seems to require the Perl program execute with overloaded Ops > (example : Terse) and so the "normal" execution of the code is forfeited. > > I have fiddled with Devel888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4OpProf to get at what internal opcodes have > executed, but really want to have my perl program somehow obtain the > same large text dump created by a -MO=Terse printing, as part of my > program's execution. I don't want to call Terse over the source .pl > file either... sorry! Is something like 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4Generate is what you are looking for? e.g. see: http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2002/05/07/optree.html Simon had an interesting paper in the last OSC's proceeding paper. I don't know if it's available online. It was called: 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4Generate + Source Filters = use Python; In any case you probably want to move this discussion to some other perl specific list/forum, unless it has something to do with mod_perl. __________________________________________________________________ Stas Bekman JAm_pH ------> Just Another mod_perl Hacker http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide ---> http://perl.apache.org mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org http://use.perl.org http://apacheweek.com http://modperlbook.org http://apache.org http://ticketmaster.com From brittneyanderson@example.org Sat Jun 01 13:07:47 2002 Return-Path: <brittneyanderson@example.org> Delivered-To: brittneyanderson@example.org Received: (qmail 702 invoked by uid 500); 1 Jun 2002 13:07:47 -0000 Mailing-List: contact brittneyanderson@example.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk list-help: <mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org> list-unsubscribe: <mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org> list-post: <mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org> Delivered-To: mailing list brittneyanderson@example.org Received: (qmail 689 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2002 13:07:46 -0000 From: "Jeff" <brittneyanderson@example.org> Cc: <brittneyanderson@example.org> Subject: RE: separating C from V in MVC Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 14:09:00 +0100 Message-ID: <000f01c2096d$8267a130$0100a8c0@leaf> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <brittneyanderson@example.org> X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N > From: Perrin Harkins [mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org] > Sent: 01 June 2002 00:17 > To: Rob Nagler > Cc: brittneyanderson@example.org > The same template? How does the layout manager help with that? > Does it modify the template? It would make more sense to me if > this were a sort of abstraction to factor out common layout > ideas from multiple templates. The layout manager is more complex than a static template. It takes a collection of data and meta-data and creates a document tree that is not a specific rendering flavour - the DOM might subsequently be rendered in NS4.0 HTML, IE5.01+ HTML, Excel, PDF etc. without requiring (every page) x (every format) x (every option) templates. > ... > That doesn't require a layout manager though. Simple templating is > fine for that, i.e. two different templates (views). In most circumstances it is ok to have templates that are specific to one output flavour, possible with some simple alts. But what if I have 40 pages that I want to render in: IE5+HTML, NS4-HTML, Excel, HP-PCL5 and PDF - and I also want SIMPLE views of each page. This would result in 40 x 5 x 2 = 400 templates. For every change in a basic page, I have to keep 9 other templates in other languages in step. If the number of output formats and page variants is not trivial, it might make more sense to have an active component that creates the document tree, and passes it to simple components that know how to render a DOM in the desired output format. All in all, I think the MVC+template approach described is fine for most of the type of dynamic sites currently available on the web. But I work for a small ASP and we have to manage rapidly changing complex dynamic sites and complex user reporting requirements, with minimal work. We don't have any HTML specialists, but rather a few very good technical generalists. I think that for us a meta-data layout driven approach will be more effective. We do however plan to borrow all the good ideas we can find from any other model, including MVC+template. Our planned move to mod_perl is mostly due to the benefits we have seen from out Perl data processing and reporting - hence the desire to join both the web and DP infra at the hip. Regards Jeff From brittneyanderson@example.org Sat Jun 01 17:09:54 2002 Return-Path: <brittneyanderson@example.org> Delivered-To: brittneyanderson@example.org Received: (qmail 65832 invoked by uid 500); 1 Jun 2002 17:09:54 -0000 Mailing-List: contact brittneyanderson@example.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk list-help: <mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org> list-unsubscribe: <mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org> list-post: <mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org> Delivered-To: mailing list brittneyanderson@example.org Received: (qmail 65819 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2002 17:09:54 -0000 Message-Id: <brittneyanderson@example.org> X-Sender: brittneyanderson@example.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 19:09:50 +0200 To: "Jeff" <brittneyanderson@example.org> From: Per Einar Ellefsen <brittneyanderson@example.org> Subject: RE: separating C from V in MVC Cc: <brittneyanderson@example.org> In-Reply-To: <000f01c2096d$8267a130$0100a8c0@leaf> References: <brittneyanderson@example.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N At 15:09 01.06.2002, Jeff wrote: > > From: Perrin Harkins [mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org] > > Sent: 01 June 2002 00:17 > > To: Rob Nagler > > Cc: brittneyanderson@example.org > > > The same template? How does the layout manager help with that? > > Does it modify the template? It would make more sense to me if > > this were a sort of abstraction to factor out common layout > > ideas from multiple templates. > >The layout manager is more complex than a static template. It takes >a collection of data and meta-data and creates a document tree that >is not a specific rendering flavour - the DOM might subsequently >be rendered in NS4.0 HTML, IE5.01+ HTML, Excel, PDF etc. without >requiring (every page) x (every format) x (every option) templates. Well, as I see this, it isn't a problem. The layout manager takes the place of the view, as it essentially decides how things should be rendered. You then have two stages in your view, but the same techniques apply (as the 2nd stage of the view isn't really specific to any model or controller). -- Per Einar Ellefsen brittneyanderson@example.org From brittneyanderson@example.org Sat Jun 01 18:14:24 2002 Return-Path: <brittneyanderson@example.org> Delivered-To: brittneyanderson@example.org Received: (qmail 84254 invoked by uid 500); 1 Jun 2002 18:14:24 -0000 Mailing-List: contact brittneyanderson@example.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk list-help: <mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org> list-unsubscribe: <mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org> list-post: <mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org> Delivered-To: mailing list brittneyanderson@example.org Received: (qmail 84241 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2002 18:14:23 -0000 Message-ID: <brittneyanderson@example.org> Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 14:15:43 -0400 From: Barry Hoggard <brittneyanderson@example.org> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0rc3) Gecko/20020523 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jesse Erlbaum <brittneyanderson@example.org> CC: modperl List <brittneyanderson@example.org>, Mason List <brittneyanderson@example.org> Subject: Re: separating C from V in MVC References: <brittneyanderson@example.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N I forgot to ask one thing about Jesse's comments. I don't think the standard HTML888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4Template has support for formatting numbers, dates, etc. How do you make sure that it's done consistently in your applications? It seems problematic to me to require the programmers to do work when a designer wants to change the number of decimals in a page, for example. -- Barry Hoggard Tristan Media LLC e: brittneyanderson@example.org p: 858.377.9513 aim: hoggardb From brittneyanderson@example.org Sat Jun 01 19:12:51 2002 Return-Path: <brittneyanderson@example.org> Delivered-To: brittneyanderson@example.org Received: (qmail 10883 invoked by uid 500); 1 Jun 2002 19:12:51 -0000 Mailing-List: contact brittneyanderson@example.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk list-help: <mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org> list-unsubscribe: <mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org> list-post: <mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org> Delivered-To: mailing list brittneyanderson@example.org Received: (qmail 10870 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2002 19:12:50 -0000 From: "Jeff" <brittneyanderson@example.org> To: "'Per Einar Ellefsen'" <brittneyanderson@example.org> Cc: <brittneyanderson@example.org> Subject: RE: separating C from V in MVC Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 20:14:17 +0100 Message-ID: <000c01c209a0$895631e0$0100a8c0@leaf> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <brittneyanderson@example.org> X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N > From: Per Einar Ellefsen [mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org] > Sent: 01 June 2002 18:10 > To: Jeff > Well, as I see this, it isn't a problem. The layout manager takes > the place of the view, as it essentially decides how things should > be rendered. You then have two stages in your view, but the same > techniques apply (as the 2nd stage of the view isn't really specific > to any model or controller). It is interesting to try and fit our approach into the MVC+template pattern, and I guess it comes down to where you draw the line. I think that the layout manager / creation of the document object model is not really part of a View, as a single DOM can be passed to a number of rendering components. I see it more as something the controller creates and passes to all of the Views that you want to implement. For example lets say that I want to present both a web page, and also render an Excel report in response to a single query [the page gets sent back to the requestor, the Excel gets saved into the db as a blob for later download]. I would see this happening like this: Controller: 1) creates collection of Models and model meta-data 2) creates DOM using layout hints in meta-data 3) passes DOM to HTML View and reaps the HTML rendering 4) passes DOM to Excel View and reaps the Excel rendering 5) saves the Excel rendering in the DB as a blob 6) returns the HTML view to the page requester As you can see from this outline, the controller manages the creation of the DOM outside either the HTML or Excel views. I see the Controller as also responsible for deciding what to do with the results of rendering the DOM in Excel or HTML formats - Views don't decide how their results should be distributed. In the above example, the Controller might decide to return the Excel object to the client, and save the HTML view into a cache or blob etc etc. This is my current thinking. Now that I have heard more details from the MVC folks on the list, I will have to sit down and spend some mental effort in assimilating MVC+template into what we currently do, and see what sort of beast emerges. Regards Jeff From brittneyanderson@example.org Sat Jun 01 19:25:57 2002 Return-Path: <brittneyanderson@example.org> Delivered-To: brittneyanderson@example.org Received: (qmail 18498 invoked by uid 500); 1 Jun 2002 19:25:57 -0000 Mailing-List: contact brittneyanderson@example.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk list-help: <mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org> list-unsubscribe: <mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org> list-post: <mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org> Delivered-To: mailing list brittneyanderson@example.org Received: (qmail 18485 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2002 19:25:56 -0000 From: "Jeff" <brittneyanderson@example.org> To: "'Barry Hoggard'" <brittneyanderson@example.org> Cc: "'modperl List'" <brittneyanderson@example.org> Subject: RE: separating C from V in MVC Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 20:27:26 +0100 Message-ID: <000d01c209a2$5d6c8460$0100a8c0@leaf> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <brittneyanderson@example.org> X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N > From: Barry Hoggard [mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org] > Sent: 01 June 2002 19:16 > I don't think the standard HTML888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4Template has support for formatting > numbers, dates, etc. Perrin indicated that you can extend HTML888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4Template in some way to accommodate this, but I am not yet sure of the details. > How do you make sure that it's done consistently in your applications? > It seems problematic to me to require the programmers to do work when a > designer wants to change the number of decimals in a page, for example. In our reporting infra we handle this by extending the number of basic data types to include things like cash value quantity interest rate market price and then set up a central store of meta-data that says xxx => cash value yyy => interest rate and then set up the extended data types cash value => '#,##0.00' quantity => '#,##0' we also allow field specific overrides zzz => '#,###' [blank when zero] All our components use the meta-data to determine how the result should look. In Excel, quantities are rendered with both a numeric value and a picture. Excel itself handles the commify. In PDF, the rendering component has to create a commified string representation with the correct number of dps. By centralising the meta-data and having rendering components that use your meta-data, you can globally change the accuracy or presentation rules in all view formats. At present, all our folks are Perl literate, so the metadata is very easily managed in a series of Perl modules, but there is nothing stopping you from storing it in a DB, text file etc and creating a non-technical user maintenance interface. Regards Jeff From brittneyanderson@example.org Sat Jun 01 20:42:23 2002 Return-Path: <brittneyanderson@example.org> Delivered-To: brittneyanderson@example.org Received: (qmail 32952 invoked by uid 500); 1 Jun 2002 20:42:22 -0000 Mailing-List: contact brittneyanderson@example.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk list-help: <mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org> list-unsubscribe: <mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org> list-post: <mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org> Delivered-To: mailing list brittneyanderson@example.org Received: (qmail 32938 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2002 20:42:22 -0000 Message-Id: <brittneyanderson@example.org> X-Sender: brittneyanderson@example.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 22:42:24 +0200 To: "Jeff" <brittneyanderson@example.org> From: Per Einar Ellefsen <brittneyanderson@example.org> Subject: RE: separating C from V in MVC Cc: <brittneyanderson@example.org> In-Reply-To: <000c01c209a0$895631e0$0100a8c0@leaf> References: <brittneyanderson@example.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N At 21:14 01.06.2002, Jeff wrote: > > From: Per Einar Ellefsen [mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org] > > Sent: 01 June 2002 18:10 > > To: Jeff > > > Well, as I see this, it isn't a problem. The layout manager takes > > the place of the view, as it essentially decides how things should > > be rendered. You then have two stages in your view, but the same > > techniques apply (as the 2nd stage of the view isn't really specific > > to any model or controller). > >This is my current thinking. Now that I have heard more details from >the MVC folks on the list, I will have to sit down and spend some >mental effort in assimilating MVC+template into what we currently >do, and see what sort of beast emerges. Well, as you see, MVC is more something of a way of thinking. I guess it's up to everyone to adapt it to their own needs. You decide what you think is best, but your "layout manager" idea clearly brings new light to this discussion. -- Per Einar Ellefsen brittneyanderson@example.org From brittneyanderson@example.org Sat Jun 01 22:58:55 2002 Return-Path: <brittneyanderson@example.org> Delivered-To: brittneyanderson@example.org Received: (qmail 61314 invoked by uid 500); 1 Jun 2002 22:58:55 -0000 Mailing-List: contact brittneyanderson@example.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk list-help: <mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org> list-unsubscribe: <mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org> list-post: <mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org> Delivered-To: mailing list brittneyanderson@example.org Received: (qmail 61301 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2002 22:58:54 -0000 From: "Jeff" <brittneyanderson@example.org> To: <brittneyanderson@example.org> Subject: RE: separating C from V in MVC Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 00:00:30 +0100 Message-ID: <000001c209c0$20e080f0$0100a8c0@leaf> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 In-Reply-To: <brittneyanderson@example.org> Importance: Normal X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N > From: Rob Nagler [mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org] > Sent: 31 May 2002 23:48 > Models can only express meta info about the data, not the context > in which the data is rendered. Some info, like placement, is > conditional on the grouping which is chosen by the view. A layout > manager abstracts placement using meta data supplied by the model > and context supplied by the view. This is an interesting comment. We have so far tried [successfully] to keep our document object models completely independent of the rendering component, which means the same DOM can be passed to an Excel/PDF/etc component for rendering. The challenge of course is that it is much easy to render complex things in HTML than for example Excel which imposes a global tablular view where a column can only have one width for a page. Excel does however support multiple pages, but HTML doesn't [frames?]. Whilst one can rely on scroll-bars for HTML, PDF rendering requires the component to decide on wrapping or truncating to fit page widths. We relied heavily on the layout analysis that the W3 did for CSS and HTML when desiging our DOM class, and so HTML rendering is easy. As Rob mentions in one of his emails, the HTML rendering component does not actually have to calculate final layout, as this is done by the browser. Final layouts do have to be managed by some of our other rendering components - the PDF rendering component has to understand all flow, wrap, alignment, trunctation etc layout info. Your comment seems to hint that maybe the DOM should take into account the target rendering flavour eg craft a complex DOM for HTML but a simple DOM for Excel. We chose to make our rendering components all accept complex DOMs and then make their own decisions on to best render them taking into account limitations of the target format. I don't know if this was the right decision, but it has met our requirements for fast reporting development times for over a year now, and I am hoping to take it into the HTML world. I somehow feel that the MVC and MVC+template patterns described so far in the discussions go a long way towards, but do not quite reach our desired level of reusable infra. Templating is an interesting variant, but actually solves a different problem. Perhaps we are wanting too much! I can certainly see that the MVC+ template approach is simpler, and this is the strongest point in its favour. Regards Jeff From brittneyanderson@example.org Sun Jun 02 03:10:16 2002 Return-Path: <brittneyanderson@example.org> Delivered-To: brittneyanderson@example.org Received: (qmail 15857 invoked by uid 500); 2 Jun 2002 03:10:14 -0000 Mailing-List: contact brittneyanderson@example.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk list-help: <mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org> list-unsubscribe: <mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org> list-post: <mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org> Delivered-To: mailing list brittneyanderson@example.org Received: (qmail 15822 invoked from network); 2 Jun 2002 03:10:13 -0000 X-Authentication-Warning: mako.covalent.net: dougm owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 20:03:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug MacEachern <brittneyanderson@example.org> To: <brittneyanderson@example.org> cc: <brittneyanderson@example.org>, <brittneyanderson@example.org> Subject: ANNOUNCE: mod_perl-1.27 Message-ID: <{{EMAIL+PHONE}}> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N The URL http://perl.apache.org/dist/mod_perl-1.27.tar.gz has entered CPAN as file: $CPAN/authors/id/D/DO/DOUGM/mod_perl-1.27.tar.gz size: 372525 bytes md5: bd07f4f1065eb0d0a8d8004219357d8c Changes since 1.26: workaround Cwd bug in 5.8.0-RC1 that breaks apache configuration on solaris fix get_set_PVp() to properly set NULL values when passing in undef thanks to Lyle Brooks for the spot [Stephen Clouse <brittneyanderson@example.org>] Apach888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4Registry/PerlRun/RegistryNG errors are now saved in $r->notes('error-notes') [Jesse Erlbaum <brittneyanderson@example.org>] fix Win32 build problems with spaces in shell arguments [Randy Kobes <brittneyanderson@example.org>] make sure DynaLoader is loaded before XSLoader to workaround possible segv when using mod_perl as a dso with perl 5.6.1 autoset PERL_USELARGEFILES=0 if needed fix taint issues with bleedperl fix bug in modules/util test [Tatsuhiko Miyagawa <brittneyanderson@example.org>] Adjust the mailling list addresses 's|\@apache\.org|\@perl.apache.org|' [Stas Bekman <brittneyanderson@example.org>] Apach888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4PerlRun will now localize $SIG{__{DIE,WARN}__} thanks to Jon Coulter for the spot PERL5LIB support now properly unshifts paths into @INC rather than push [Tatsuhiko Miyagawa <brittneyanderson@example.org>] do not clear symbol tables within a package in perl_clear_symtab() used by directive handler extensions [Stephen Clouse <brittneyanderson@example.org>] properly deal with $r->status codes (e.g. redirect) in Apach888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4RegistryNG [Geoff Young <brittneyanderson@example.org>] allow $r->auth_name and $r->auth_type to be set on win32 [John Kelly <brittneyanderson@example.org>] fix compilation for win32 w/ apache 1.3.22+ [Randy Kobes <brittneyanderson@example.org>] fix multiple %LocationMatch in <Perl> sections bug [Salvador Ortiz Garcia <brittneyanderson@example.org>] rip -D_GNU_SOURCE out of Perl 5.7.3+'s ccflags, which modperl doesn't need and apache won't compile with [Stas Bekman <brittneyanderson@example.org>] make sure PerlSetEnv variables are visible after first access to each child [Geoff Young <brittneyanderson@example.org>] workaround Apach888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4Constants888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4UTOLOAD problem with bleedperl the first flag argument to perl cannot start with space, since perl tries to open the " -spi.bak" as a file. fix that in the win32 case. [Stas Bekman <brittneyanderson@example.org>] starting from perl 5.7.3 for tied filehandles, tiedscalar magic is applied to the IO slot of the GP rather than the GV itself. adjust the TIEHANDLE macro to work properly under 5.7.3+. [Charles Jardine <brittneyanderson@example.org>, Stas Bekman <brittneyanderson@example.org>] added perl_perl_merge_dir_config and array_header2avrv symbols to mod_perl.def for win32 and mod_perl.exp for aix. [Randy Kobes <brittneyanderson@example.org>] INSTALL.apaci: added an explanation of how perl has to be built in order to use DSO without problems (copied from the guide) based on email from Doug. [Stas Bekman <brittneyanderson@example.org>] warn if Perl is configured with -Duseshrplib and a libperl.so is found in a place where it should not be, example: /lib /usr/lib or /usr/local/lib fix potential segv in Apach888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4URI->rpath [Vyacheslav Zamyatin <brittneyanderson@example.org>] require URI888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4URL to work with newer libwww-perl allow overriding of container directive handlers using the func parameter [Geoffrey Young <brittneyanderson@example.org>] enable directive handler support for TAKE13 [Geoffrey Young <brittneyanderson@example.org>] --- Enjoy, -Doug From brittneyanderson@example.org Sun Jun 02 03:29:49 2002 Return-Path: <brittneyanderson@example.org> Delivered-To: brittneyanderson@example.org Received: (qmail 22332 invoked by uid 500); 2 Jun 2002 03:29:49 -0000 Mailing-List: contact brittneyanderson@example.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk list-help: <mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org> list-unsubscribe: <mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org> list-post: <mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org> Delivered-To: mailing list brittneyanderson@example.org Received: (qmail 22291 invoked from network); 2 Jun 2002 03:29:48 -0000 X-Authentication-Warning: mako.covalent.net: dougm owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 20:23:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug MacEachern <brittneyanderson@example.org> To: <brittneyanderson@example.org> cc: <brittneyanderson@example.org>, <brittneyanderson@example.org> Subject: ANNOUNCE: mod_perl-1.99_02 Message-ID: <{{EMAIL+PHONE}}> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N The URL http://perl.apache.org/dist/mod_perl-1.99_02.tar.gz has entered CPAN as file: $CPAN/authors/id/D/DO/DOUGM/mod_perl-1.99_02.tar.gz size: 378436 bytes md5: b08c12adc1a8ae4ce7a111f8d5fe0b43 Changes since 1.99_02: pass the PATH and TZ environment variables at startup by default as 1.xx did fix ModPerl888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4Util888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4xit segv with 5.6.0 no longer support 5.7.x perl development versions added compat for Apach888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4Table->new various fixes to compile/run on darwin server-scope Perl{Set,Pass}Env config now propagated to %ENV at startup use SvOK(sv) instead of sv == &PL_sv_undef to detect undef values in xs [Stephen Clouse <brittneyanderson@example.org>] complete Apach888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4Util 1.x compat added Apach888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4MPM_IS_THREADED constant added compat function for Apach888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4Constants888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4SERVER_VERSION added Apach888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4Constants888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4xport stub for compat added noop stubs for timeout functions removed from 2.0: $r->{soft,hard,reset,kill}_timeout turned on PerlOptions +GlobalRequest by default for perl-script handler unless it is explicitly turned off with PerlOptions -GlobalRequest added APR888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4OS888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4thread_current function added support for 1.x $r->subprocess_env functionality added support for $r->push_handlers(PerlHandler => ...) added support for $r->proxyreq to detect proxy requests $r->content_type($val) now calls ap_set_content_type underneath add the err_header_out() wrapper to Apach888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4compat + corresponding tests [Stas Bekman] fix $r->dir_config lookup of values set in the server context added Apach888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4REDIRECT shortcut constant various fixes for method handlers use Apach888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4ServerUtil in Apach888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4compat so Apache->server works in compat mode [Dave Rolsky <brittneyanderson@example.org>] add Apach888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4Util888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4unescape_uri alias to Apach888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4unescape_url in Apach888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4compat change Apach888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4unescape_url to return the escaped url as 1.x does disabled term coloring by default (enable with env var APACHE_TEST_COLOR=1) fix for APR888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4IpSubnet->new to check return status apr_ipsubnet_create enabled APR888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4SockAddr module turn on binmode for filehandle used in $r->send_fd get MP_{TRACE,DEBUG} Makefile.PL options working on win32 various fixes to build/run with bleedperl various fixes for win32 to get make test passing moved constuct_{url,server} methods to Apach888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4URI module implement Apach888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4URI888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4parse in Apach888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4compat give Perl*Handlers precedence over other handlers by using APR_HOOK_FIRST rather than APR_HOOK_LAST workaround bug in 5.6.1 when XSLoader loads DynaLoader, wiping out any dl handles it had been keeping track of. tidy up test to run standalone (without modperl test config) [Stas Bekman] override T_PTROBJ INPUT typemap to croak if object is not a blessed reference, to prevent possible segv from e.g. Apach888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4Server->process apr_lock.h is gone; disable APR888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4Lock for the moment enabled the Apach888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4Process module fix ModPerl888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4Util888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4xit to clear $@ before calling Perl_croak cut down on some build noise fix 'PerlOptions +GlobalRequest' when used within subrequests get rid of some "subroutine redefined" warnings in ModPerl888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4MM that show up with newer bleedperls. a few fixes for Apach888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4compat [Dave Rolsky <brittneyanderson@example.org>] --- Enjoy, -Doug From brittneyanderson@example.org Sun Jun 02 04:49:26 2002 Return-Path: <brittneyanderson@example.org> Delivered-To: brittneyanderson@example.org Received: (qmail 39899 invoked by uid 500); 2 Jun 2002 04:49:26 -0000 Mailing-List: contact brittneyanderson@example.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk list-help: <mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org> list-unsubscribe: <mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org> list-post: <mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org> Delivered-To: mailing list brittneyanderson@example.org Received: (qmail 39886 invoked from network); 2 Jun 2002 04:49:25 -0000 Message-ID: <brittneyanderson@example.org> Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 12:49:33 +0800 From: Stas Bekman <brittneyanderson@example.org> Organization: Hope, Humanized User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0rc2) Gecko/00200205 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: modperl list <brittneyanderson@example.org> Subject: 5.8.0 RC1 has been released; please help testing it Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N In case you've missed this announcement, please help test Perl 5.8.0-RC1. The just released mod_perl-1.27 and mod_perl-1.99_02 were tested with this release and work properly on several platforms we were able to test on. Please make sure that when 5.8.0 is released it works for you (both mod_perl(s) and 3rd party Perl modules). ----- Forwarded message from Jarkko Hietaniemi <brittneyanderson@example.org> ----- =head1 Perl 5.8.0 Release Candidate 1 The Perl 5 developer team is pleased to announce the Release Candidate 1 of Perl 5.8.0. Please test extensively. Your help in testing the upcoming perl 5.8.0 is much appreciated. This is a source code release, not a binary release. You will need a C development environment. Please note that Perl 5.8.0 is a major new release of Perl containing many new features, enhancements to existing features and bug fixes. This version is "Release Candidate 1"; the purpose of this version is to permit and encourage the Perl community to conduct extensive testing and to report problems so that we, and the owners of affected Perl packages, have an opportunity to correct them. Because the process of testing the vast quantity of Perl software will take time, and because issues uncovered by this testing may result in further changes or corrections to Perl 5.8.0 and the various Perl packages, WE DO NOT RECOMMEND USING RELEASE CANDIDATE 1 IN A PRODUCTION ENVIRONMENT. Please wait for the final version of Perl 5.8.0 for production use. As always, you should conduct an appropriate level of testing before using any new product in your production environment. As specified in the licenses for Perl (see the files named Artistic or Copying), THIS PACKAGE IS PROVIDED WITH ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY. New Release Candidates will come out about weekly until we are satisfied with the results, at which point the final 5.8.0 will be released. =head1 Where To Get It The 5.8.0 RC1 is now available at http://mirrors.kernel.org/cpan/src/perl-5.8.0-RC1.tgz http://cpan.valueclick.com/src/perl-5.8.0-RC1.tgz ftp://ftp.leo.org/pub/CPAN/src/perl-5.8.0-RC1.tgz ftp://ftp.funet.fi/pub/CPAN/src/perl-5.8.0-RC1.tgz and as the CPAN mirrors catch up, in the src/ subdirectory of your nearest friendly CPAN mirror. The size of the file is 10913451 bytes and the MD5 checksum for the file is f595a07df28eb9e40d4d27281a9b37a9 perl-5.8.0-RC1.tgz This release should work in all UNIX/Linux and Microsoft environments, and in other environments which have POSIX/UNIX interfaces, such as BeOS, Cygwin, MPE/iX, NetWare, OS/2, QNX, VMS, VOS, and z/OS, and the appropriate C compilation environment. A MacOS Classic port requires a little bit more work but it should become available soon-- follow http://dev.macperl.org/ =head1 Why To Get It For the list of changes in 5.8.0 see the pod/perldelta.pod, available separately online at http://mirrors.kernel.org/cpan/doc/perldelta.pod http://cpan.valuelick.com/doc/perldelta.pod ftp://ftp.leo.org/pub/CPAN/doc/perldelta.pod ftp://ftp.funet.fi/pub/CPAN/doc/perldelta.pod (and again, eventually at all CPAN mirrors-- note, though, that these URLs are not permanent, they will be removed when the final 5.8.0 is released) The .tgz file will unpack into a directory called "perl-5.8.0-RC1". =head1 How To Do It You will configure, build, and test Perl. Below is a short summary, for the full story read the "INSTALL" file. =head2 Configuring If you are in a UNIX-like system, you can setup Perl for compilation by changing into the "perl-5.8.0-RC1" directory and issuing the following command: sh Configure -des This will simply select all the defaults for your system, INCLUDING defaulting to install in the usual location for production software. (So don't run make install if you run Configure this way!) If you are not in a UNIX-like system (say, Win32), please read the "INSTALL" file and any possible platform specific README files for further instructions, and skip the parts below that don't apply to your platform. If you want to go through Configure interactively (for example to change the default installation directories), do just sh Configure =head2 Building To build Perl issue the command make all Note that the build times can vary considerably. Perl 5.8.0 is about twice the size of 5.6.1, and some source code files are quite large, so your compiler might have hard time processing them. On a fast modern system with lots of CPU and memory the build can be a matter of ten minutes, but on slower/older/more heavily loaded systems it can take up to eight hours, while half an hour to an hour being common. =head2 Testing After the build has finished, it's time to test the build. make test Again, testing times vary a lot. Perl 5.8.0 has more than five times the tests of Perl 5.6.1. Fifteen minutes to half an hour is quite normal, but a slow system may easily take an hour or more. If all tests are successful, "make test" will say "All tests successful" (unsurprisingly). If all tests are not successful, you may get a more detailed report by changing to the t/ subdirectory and running the "harness" script, something like this cd t ./perl harness You may need to set up your dynamic library path before that (the final message of "make test" should tell all the needed details). The more detailed report will be very useful when your report problems. Knowing your exact configuration is essential, too: usually running the "myconfig" script from the build directory produces this information. Note that some systems or configurations have known problems, see perldelta for details, no need to report them. In case you still see errors, please document them via the perlbug system, as detailed in the "INSTALL" file, section "Reporting Problems". Finally note that if you happen to have a "less common" platform, like some of the rarer UNIXes, or something even more exotic, we will be glad to hear even of successes, not just about possible problems. =head2 Installing Once you are happy with the test results of Perl itself (or you are just feeling extraordinarily brave), you may consider installing it. The Perl development team has tried to guarantee that popular Perl applications like CGI, LWP, mod_perl and DBI/DBD work with 5.8.0. Note "work", not necessarily "work without warnings": for example 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4Oracle works, but during compilation and testing you may see various warnings. Also in some cases not all the functionality of the modules may be available (yet). However... THIS IS A REAL NEW PERL RELEASE THAT IS BINARY INCOMPATIBLE WITH ANY PREVIOUS PERL RELEASE. THIS MEANS THAT YOUR OLD EXTENSIONS (.xs code, those Perl modules requiring a C compiler) WILL NOT WORK AND WILL HAVE TO BE RECOMPILED. (Pure Perl modules should continue working.) INSTALLING THIS PERL RELEASE WILL OVERWRITE YOUR CURRENT PERL RELEASE. (For example, /usr/bin/perl will become Perl 5.8.0.) DO NOT INSTALL THIS INTO PRODUCTION USE UNLESS YOU REALLY MEAN IT. If you still feel like installing this, you can do so by "make install". If you want to install this, but want to install it into some less dangerous place (and not overwrite your current installation), do the following make clean sh Configure -des -Dprefix=/test/perl580 -Uinstallusrbinperl make all make test and then the "make install". The -Dprefix will place the Perl installation at the said directory (the Perl executable will be /test/perl580/bin/perl), and the -Uinstallusrbinperl will avoid overwriting /usr/bin/perl with a copy of the Perl 5.8.0 executable. =head1 Testing The Perl Installation You should test both your own code, and other code that you use. =head2 Testing Your Own Code Test your own code with perl 5.8.0, but in case of surprises read the perldelta.pod carefully before judging something as a bug. In some cases the behaviour of Perl has changed. =head2 Testing Perl Modules You should try reinstalling your favourite CPAN modules to guarantee that they will continue working under Perl 5.8. Note that if you find some module either failing its tests or you see the tests emitting warning messages, please first and foremost report these problems to the author of the module. Advise him/her about the impending 5.8.0 release and where to get the RC1 (you might for example point the author to this very message). Since there are hundreds of modules available, the Perl 5 developer team is not qualified to be experts on all of them; it is much faster if the module author resolves any problems. In some cases you may also consider contacting some mailing lists to ask for help (and to spread awareness of the upcoming 5.8.0), for example if your operating system or the modules have mailing lists of their own. =head2 That's it. =head1 AUTHOR Jarkko Hietaniemi on behalf of the Perl 5 developer team =cut __________________________________________________________________ Stas Bekman JAm_pH ------> Just Another mod_perl Hacker http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide ---> http://perl.apache.org mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org http://use.perl.org http://apacheweek.com http://modperlbook.org http://apache.org http://ticketmaster.com From brittneyanderson@example.org Sun Jun 02 20:16:25 2002 Return-Path: <brittneyanderson@example.org> Delivered-To: brittneyanderson@example.org Received: (qmail 62788 invoked by uid 500); 2 Jun 2002 20:16:23 -0000 Mailing-List: contact brittneyanderson@example.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk list-help: <mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org> list-unsubscribe: <mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org> list-post: <mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org> Delivered-To: mailing list brittneyanderson@example.org Received: (qmail 62765 invoked from network); 2 Jun 2002 20:16:23 -0000 Message-ID: <brittneyanderson@example.org> Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 13:16:33 -0700 From: Joshua Chamas <brittneyanderson@example.org> Organization: NodeWorks <http://www.nodeworks.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: brittneyanderson@example.org, "brittneyanderson@example.org" <brittneyanderson@example.org> Subject: [ANNOUNCE] Apach888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4ASP 2.35 bugfix release Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N Hey, I have released Apach888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4ASP 2.35 to CPAN. This is a minor bugfix release. For more information about Apach888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4ASP, please see http://www.apache-asp.org, and to get on the mailing list please email brittneyanderson@example.org Note that users of CPANPLUS get errors at "make test" stage because it seems that Archiv888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4Tar does not untar the Apach888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4ASP distribution correctly. I have reported this bug to the maintainer of that module. -- Josh _________________________________________________________________ Joshua Chamas Chamas Enterprises Inc. NodeWorks Founder Huntington Beach, CA USA http://www.nodeworks.com 858.377.9513 =item $VERSION = 2.35; $DATE="05/30/2002" +Destroy better $Server & $Response objects so that my closure references to these to not attempt to work in the future against invalid internal data. There was enough data left in these old objects to make debugging the my closure problem confusing, where it looked like the ASP object state became invalid. +Added system debug diagnostics to inspect StateManager group cleanup (d) Documentation update about flock() work around for Win95/Win98/WinMe systems, confirmed by Rex Arul (d) Documentation/site build bug found by Mitsunobu Ozato, where <% %> not being escaped correctly with $Server->HTMLEncode(). New japanese documentation project started by him at http://sourceforge.jp/projects/apache-asp-jp/ -InitPackageGlobals() called after new Apach888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4ASP object created so core system templates can be compiled even when there was a runtime compilation error of user templates. Bug fix needed pointed out by Eamon Daly From brittneyanderson@example.org Sun Jun 02 21:12:48 2002 Return-Path: <brittneyanderson@example.org> Delivered-To: brittneyanderson@example.org Received: (qmail 78266 invoked by uid 500); 2 Jun 2002 21:12:48 -0000 Mailing-List: contact brittneyanderson@example.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk list-help: <mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org> list-unsubscribe: <mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org> list-post: <mailto:brittneyanderson@example.org> Delivered-To: mailing list brittneyanderson@example.org Received: (qmail 78253 invoked from network); 2 Jun 2002 21:12:47 -0000 Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 17:04:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Sam Tregar <brittneyanderson@example.org> X-X-Sender: brittneyanderson@example.org To: Barry Hoggard <brittneyanderson@example.org> cc: Jesse Erlbaum <brittneyanderson@example.org>, modperl List <brittneyanderson@example.org>, Mason List <brittneyanderson@example.org> Subject: Re: separating C from V in MVC In-Reply-To: <brittneyanderson@example.org> Message-ID: <{{EMAIL+PHONE}}> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N On Sat, 1 Jun 2002, Barry Hoggard wrote: > I don't think the standard HTML888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4Template has support for formatting > numbers, dates, etc. And thank the sweet lord it doesn't! HTML888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4Template is a "do one thing and do it well" module. If you want routines for formatting "numbers, dates, etc." then CPAN has just what you need. > How do you make sure that it's done consistently in your applications? Code reviews and testing. I don't know of any other way, module support or no module support. > It seems problematic to me to require the programmers to do work when a > designer wants to change the number of decimals in a page, for example. HTML888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4Templat888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4Expr may present a solution to this particular desire, although it isn't one I've come across. How often are HTML designers fiddling with numeric formats? Are they really HTML designers if they can deal with, say, a printf-style format string? -sam From brittneyanderson@example.org Mon
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