From joseph67@example.org Fri Nov 1 01:12:56 2002 Return-Path: <joseph67@example.org> Mailing-List: contact joseph67@example.org; run by ezmlm Delivered-To: mailing list joseph67@example.org Received: (qmail 20057 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2002 01:12:56 -0000 Received: from smtp1.libero.it (83.161.120.155) by daedalus.apache.org with SMTP; 1 Nov 2002 01:12:56 -0000 Received: from apache.org (83.161.120.155) by smtp1.libero.it (6.5.028) id 3DB940C70036AAA9 for joseph67@example.org; Fri, 1 Nov 2002 02:13:02 +0100 Message-ID: <joseph67@example.org> Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 01:20:32 +0100 From: Stefano Mazzocchi <joseph67@example.org> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.2b) Gecko/20021016 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: joseph67@example.org Subject: Re: ASF Membership Nomination References: <D9WVR2U8294OJONSOC7NKUO07VQQN1V.3dc12ca6@pc13> <joseph67@example.org> In-Reply-To: <D9WVR2U8294OJONSOC7NKUO07VQQN1V.3dc12ca6@pc13> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N Sam Ruby wrote: > Ted Husted wrote: > > > > > Lists are how we procreate. > > > Eeewwww... > > Perhaps there *are* some things that really should be done in private. ROTFL :-))) -- Stefano Mazzocchi <joseph67@example.org> -------------------------------------------------------------------- From joseph67@example.org Fri Nov 1 01:12:59 2002 Return-Path: <joseph67@example.org> Mailing-List: contact joseph67@example.org; run by ezmlm Delivered-To: mailing list joseph67@example.org Received: (qmail 20284 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2002 01:12:59 -0000 Received: from smtp3.libero.it (83.161.120.155) by daedalus.apache.org with SMTP; 1 Nov 2002 01:12:59 -0000 Received: from apache.org (83.161.120.155) by smtp3.libero.it (6.5.028) id 3DC1531000038CE1; Fri, 1 Nov 2002 02:13:07 +0100 Message-ID: <joseph67@example.org> Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 01:47:15 +0100 From: Stefano Mazzocchi <joseph67@example.org> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.2b) Gecko/20021016 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: joseph67@example.org CC: Apache Cocoon <joseph67@example.org> Subject: Re: [important proposal] Cocoon as official Apache project References: <joseph67@example.org> <joseph67@example.org> In-Reply-To: <joseph67@example.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N Joe Schaefer wrote: > Stefano Mazzocchi writes: > > [ I want to preface my comments by first thanking you for community@. You are welcome. > Secondly, at the moment I'm inclined to affirm your proposal, but I > need to develop some guiding criterion on which to base a vote. I > don't want to be in a position where I feel obligated vote "+1" on > every similar request, especially when I have no feeling for how many > of them are coming :-) ] Great. Thanks much for asking these specific questions, I think they might help much other people in the future. Also, note that community@ is *NOT* asked to vote but only Cocoon committes. I copied community@ to let people know the process is underway and I wanted to do it in a very open way. NOTE: so far, the counts is 16 positive votes (including mine) and not all committers have voted. > >Unfortunately, the ASF members thought that the same model could well > >apply to projects which did not release software directly (unlike HTTPD > >did) and decided to use the same model for jakarta and xml (which don't > >release software directly, but add another level of indirection with > >subprojects). > > > Can you describe the current release process for cocoon, > emphasizing the problems with the current system? Is there > a public document that chronicles the issues? > Maybe you got me wrong: there is no problem with the actual release of the software. The problem I have is that a container PMC is 'by design' composed by a selected number of committers while a software-driven PMC can be composed only by people that care about the software and know how to take action. I think the second model is more effective than the first in any possible situation where legal issues emerge. And this is why I want Cocoon to have its own PMC: less indirection, more effectivness and better legal protection. > >In order to avoid stupid PMC elections, I'll be in favor of having the > >PMC composed by *all* committers that ask to be part of it. This to > >imply that committers and legal protector share the same duties and > >priviledges. > > > How many cocoon committers are there right now? > As you can see from http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/who.html there are: 19 active committers 5 inactive committers 14 emeritus committers see the page for a definition of their status and their names. If the PMC was created today, I would like it to be composed of those 19 active committers. > >3) what does it mean for Cocoon? > > > >Being a project allows us to host several different incubation-stage > >efforts underneath. Cocoblog, wyona, forrest, cocoon-related IDE > >plugins could be possible additions. Of course, with the idea of > >promoting them as top-level projects when they are successful from a > >community perspective. > > > How will the cocoon PMC be better positioned to address the needs > of such "subprojects" than the current jakarta/xml PMC? In one word: focus. A PMC managing a project with a wide scope and hundreds of committers looses direct connection with the software being developped. This has seveal big issues: - less legal protection (the PMC has a hard time to know what everyone is doing) - less communication (sub-projects tend to isolate from one another) - less foundation visibility (sub-projects tend to see the project as a sub-foundation, thus ignoring the foundation and reducing "vertical" communication between all layers of the foundation) > How do you foresee cocoon's PMC addressing the current troubles with > subproject releases? Like I said, there are no 'release problems', but the question is still valid if rephrased. If a Cocoon PMC starts to become more and more a container, it will slowly start to behave like a sub-foundation (or to be perceived as such) and will then loose focus. I honestly have no idea on how to handle this, but the intention is *NOT* to start having tons of new subprojects, but to go on with it *very easily* exactly to avoid this containment effect. At the end, Darwin will tell us what to do. As usual. > >5) isn't this unfair against the other sub-projects that remain > >contained, therefore with less visibility? > > > >I don't know. Here I'm just stating the intention to move Cocoon to > >top-level and I know the ASF board is very open to projects willing to > >move out of their containers. > > > >But the ASF will *NOT* force projects to take this action. If other > >communities feel they should deserve top-level projects, they should > >make a proposal like this and ask the board instead of complaining > >with us that we do it. > > > Among jakarta/xml projects, how widespread is the desire to abandon > the container PMC? Honestly, I have no idea. But I'm sure we'll find out really soon :) Anyway, keep in mind that community@ is *not* directly involved in the process from a legal point of view. In fact, it's the ASF board that decides after the development community explicitly asks so (and that's why I started the vote on cocoon-dev@, our intention is to have the board pronounce at the next board meeting at the apachecon) > Have there been other reorganization attempts in the past? No, this is the first time. Hope this helps. -- Stefano Mazzocchi <joseph67@example.org> -------------------------------------------------------------------- From joseph67@example.org Fri Nov 1 01:32:38 2002 Return-Path: <joseph67@example.org> Mailing-List: contact joseph67@example.org; run by ezmlm Delivered-To: mailing list joseph67@example.org Received: (qmail 27894 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2002 01:32:38 -0000 Received: from mail223.mail.bellsouth.net (HELO imf23bis.bellsouth.net) (83.161.120.155) by daedalus.apache.org with SMTP; 1 Nov 2002 01:32:38 -0000 Received: from mumonkan.sunstarsys.com ([83.161.120.155]) by imf23bis.bellsouth.net (InterMail vM.83.161.120.155 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP id <joseph67@example.org> for <joseph67@example.org>; Thu, 31 Oct 2002 20:34:29 -0500 Received: (from joe@localhost) by mumonkan.sunstarsys.com (8.11.6/8.11.0) id gA11a8315514; Thu, 31 Oct 2002 20:36:08 -0500 To: joseph67@example.org Subject: Re: [important proposal] Cocoon as official Apache project References: <joseph67@example.org> <joseph67@example.org> <joseph67@example.org> From: Joe Schaefer <joseph67@example.org> Date: 31 Oct 2002 20:36:07 -0500 In-Reply-To: Stefano Mazzocchi's message of "Fri, 01 Nov 2002 01:47:15 +0100" Message-ID: <joseph67@example.org> Lines: 46 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N [Not Cc'd to Apache Cocoon <joseph67@example.org>] Stefano Mazzocchi <joseph67@example.org> writes: [...] > Also, note that community@ is *NOT* asked to vote but only Cocoon > committes. I copied community@ to let people know the process is > underway and I wanted to do it in a very open way. Whew- That's a relief! I didn't catch the CC: to cocoon-dev in your original post. [...] > > > > How many cocoon committers are there right now? > > > As you can see from http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/who.html there are: > > 19 active committers > 5 inactive committers > 14 emeritus committers > > see the page for a definition of their status and their names. Thanks for the link. Prior to posting, I did try looking for this info myself on the xml.apache.org site. There seems to be a link loop though: http://xml.apache.org/whoweare.html -> /roles.html -> /whoweare.html ... I got frustrated after a few cycles, so I figured it's just easier to ask :-) [...] > Hope this helps. It did. Thanks again. -- Joe Schaefer From joseph67@example.org Fri Nov 1 10:00:23 2002 Return-Path: <joseph67@example.org> Mailing-List: contact joseph67@example.org; run by ezmlm Delivered-To: mailing list joseph67@example.org Received: (qmail 63865 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2002 10:00:23 -0000 Received: from sccrmhc02.attbi.com (83.161.120.155) by daedalus.apache.org with SMTP; 1 Nov 2002 10:00:23 -0000 Received: from apache.org ([83.161.120.155]) by sccrmhc02.attbi.com (InterMail vM.83.161.120.155 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <joseph67@example.org> for <joseph67@example.org>; Fri, 1 Nov 2002 10:00:36 +0000 Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 02:00:35 -0800 Subject: Re: [VOTE] Openness Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546) From: Ovidiu Predescu <joseph67@example.org> To: joseph67@example.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <joseph67@example.org> Message-Id: <joseph67@example.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.546) X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N I agree with Stefan here. I think we need the transparency, but we want to avoid the noise of too many people exposing their ideas. There are better forums for them to express this. We need to keep this list focused on what matters to us. On Thursday, Oct 31, 2002, at 02:51 US/Pacific, Stefan Bodewig wrote: > VOTE 1: would you like to make it possible for non-committers to read > this mail list thru a web archive? > > [X] +1 yes, let's make it readable > [ ] 0 don't know/don't care > [ ] -1 no, let's keep it private > > VOTE 2: would you like to make it possible for non-committers to > fully subscribe to this mail list? > > [ ] +1 yes, let's open it to everyone > [ ] 0 don't know/don't care > [X] -1 no, let's keep it for committers only Regards, -- Ovidiu Predescu <joseph67@example.org> http://webweavertech.com/ovidiu/weblog/ From joseph67@example.org Fri Nov 1 14:01:32 2002 Return-Path: <joseph67@example.org> Mailing-List: contact joseph67@example.org; run by ezmlm Delivered-To: mailing list joseph67@example.org Received: (qmail 804 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2002 14:01:32 -0000 Received: from icarus.apache.org (83.161.120.155) by daedalus.apache.org with SMTP; 1 Nov 2002 14:01:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 26281 invoked by uid 1432); 1 Nov 2002 14:01:32 -0000 Date: 1 Nov 2002 14:01:32 -0000 Message-ID: <joseph67@example.org> From: joseph67@example.org To: joseph67@example.org Subject: Re: [VOTE] Openness X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N VOTE 1: would you like to make it possible for non-committers to read this mail list thru a web archive? [X] +1 yes, let's make it readable [ ] 0 don't know/don't care [ ] -1 no, let's keep it private - o - VOTE 2: would you like to make it possible for non-committers to fully subscribe to this mail list? [ ] +1 yes, let's open it to everyone [ ] 0 don't know/don't care [X] -1 no, let's keep it for committers only From joseph67@example.org Fri Nov 1 13:58:07 2002 Return-Path: <joseph67@example.org> Mailing-List: contact joseph67@example.org; run by ezmlm Delivered-To: mailing list joseph67@example.org Delivered-To: moderator for joseph67@example.org Received: (qmail 95645 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2002 13:58:07 -0000 Received: from d06lmsgate-5.uk.ibm.com (83.161.120.155) by daedalus.apache.org with SMTP; 1 Nov 2002 13:58:07 -0000 Received: from d06relay02.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (d06relay02.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com [83.161.120.155]) by d06lmsgate-5.uk.ibm.com (1.0.0) with ESMTP id NAA66012 for <joseph67@example.org>; Fri, 1 Nov 2002 13:58:02 GMT Received: from d06ml007.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (d06ml007_cs0 [83.161.120.155]) by d06relay02.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (8.12.3/NCO/VER6.4) with ESMTP id gA1Dw53a075160 for <joseph67@example.org>; Fri, 1 Nov 2002 13:58:05 GMT Subject: Re: [VOTE] Openness To: joseph67@example.org X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.7 March 21, 2001 Message-ID: <joseph67@example.org> From: "Glyn Normington" <joseph67@example.org> Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 14:00:52 +0000 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on d06ml007/06/M/IBM(Release 5.0.9a |January 7, 2002) at 01/11/2002 13:58:05 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N VOTE 1: would you like to make it possible for non-committers to read this mail list thru a web archive? [X] +1 yes, let's make it readable [ ] 0 don't know/don't care [ ] -1 no, let's keep it private - o - VOTE 2: would you like to make it possible for non-committers to fully subscribe to this mail list? [ ] +1 yes, let's open it to everyone [ ] 0 don't know/don't care [X] -1 no, let's keep it for committers only From joseph67@example.org Fri Nov 1 14:11:34 2002 Return-Path: <joseph67@example.org> Mailing-List: contact joseph67@example.org; run by ezmlm Delivered-To: mailing list joseph67@example.org Delivered-To: moderator for joseph67@example.org Received: (qmail 10246 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2002 14:11:34 -0000 Received: from d06lmsgate-4.uk.ibm.com (83.161.120.155) by daedalus.apache.org with SMTP; 1 Nov 2002 14:11:34 -0000 Received: from d06relay02.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (d06relay02.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com [83.161.120.155]) by d06lmsgate-4.uk.ibm.COM (1.0.0) with ESMTP id NAA140884 for <joseph67@example.org>; Fri, 1 Nov 2002 13:52:29 GMT Received: from d06ml007.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (d06ml007_cs0 [83.161.120.155]) by d06relay02.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (8.12.3/NCO/VER6.4) with ESMTP id gA1EBF3a141452 for <joseph67@example.org>; Fri, 1 Nov 2002 14:11:15 GMT Subject: Re: [VOTE] Openness To: joseph67@example.org X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.7 March 21, 2001 Message-ID: <joseph67@example.org> From: "Glyn Normington" <joseph67@example.org> Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 14:14:02 +0000 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on d06ml007/06/M/IBM(Release 5.0.9a |January 7, 2002) at 01/11/2002 14:11:15 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N I wasn't trying to vote twice, but I thought the first attempt from this email address would have been rejected. Sorry! Glyn Normington http://cvs.apache.org/~glyn From joseph67@example.org Fri Nov 1 10:49:42 2002 Return-Path: <joseph67@example.org> Mailing-List: contact joseph67@example.org; run by ezmlm Delivered-To: mailing list joseph67@example.org Delivered-To: moderator for joseph67@example.org Received: (qmail 80700 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2002 10:49:42 -0000 Received: from anchor-post-39.mail.demon.net (83.161.120.155) by daedalus.apache.org with SMTP; 1 Nov 2002 10:49:42 -0000 Received: from media.demon.co.uk ([83.161.120.155]) by anchor-post-39.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #2) id 187ZNC-00018D-0U; Fri, 01 Nov 2002 10:49:54 +0000 Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 10:49:53 +0000 Subject: Re: [important proposal] Cocoon as official Apache project Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546) Cc: joseph67@example.org To: joseph67@example.org From: Jeremy Quinn <joseph67@example.org> In-Reply-To: <joseph67@example.org> Message-Id: <joseph67@example.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.546) X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N On Friday, Nov 1, 2002, at 00:47 Europe/London, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote: > NOTE: so far, the counts is 16 positive votes (including mine) and not > all committers have voted. > Sorry! +1, the time has come! regards Jeremy From joseph67@example.org Fri Nov 1 15:46:19 2002 Return-Path: <joseph67@example.org> Mailing-List: contact joseph67@example.org; run by ezmlm Delivered-To: mailing list joseph67@example.org Delivered-To: moderator for joseph67@example.org Received: (qmail 88296 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2002 15:46:19 -0000 Received: from e34.co.us.ibm.com (83.161.120.155) by daedalus.apache.org with SMTP; 1 Nov 2002 15:46:19 -0000 Received: from westrelay04.boulder.ibm.com (westrelay04.boulder.ibm.com [83.161.120.155]) by e34.co.us.ibm.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id gA1FkGpA031222 for <joseph67@example.org>; Fri, 1 Nov 2002 10:46:16 -0500 Received: from d25ml01.torolab.ibm.com (d25ml01.torolab.ibm.com [83.161.120.155]) by westrelay04.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.3/NCO/VER6.4) with ESMTP id gA1FmNO7141808 for <joseph67@example.org>; Fri, 1 Nov 2002 08:48:23 -0700 Subject: Re: [VOTE] Openness To: joseph67@example.org X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.7 March 21, 2001 Message-ID: <joseph67@example.org> From: joseph67@example.org Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 10:46:14 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on D25ML01/25/M/IBM(Release 5.0.9a |January 7, 2002) at 11/01/2002 10:46:15 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N > VOTE 1: would you like to make it possible for non-committers to read > this mail list thru a web archive? > > [ ] +1 yes, let's make it readable > [X] 0 don't know/don't care > [ ] -1 no, let's keep it private > > > - o - > > > VOTE 2: would you like to make it possible for non-committers to fully > subscribe to this mail list? > > [ ] +1 yes, let's open it to everyone > [ ] 0 don't know/don't care > [X] -1 no, let's keep it for committers only Ilene. ------ From joseph67@example.org Sat Nov 2 10:09:40 2002 Return-Path: <joseph67@example.org> Mailing-List: contact joseph67@example.org; run by ezmlm Delivered-To: mailing list joseph67@example.org Received: (qmail 70589 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2002 10:09:40 -0000 Received: from ptolemy.goulburn.net.au (83.161.120.155) by daedalus.apache.org with SMTP; 2 Nov 2002 10:09:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 2735 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2002 10:09:52 -0000 Received: from max-01-060.goulburn.net.au (83.161.120.155) by ptolemy.goulburn.net.au with SMTP; 2 Nov 2002 10:09:52 -0000 Subject: Re: Committers home pages From: David Crossley <joseph67@example.org> To: joseph67@example.org In-Reply-To: <joseph67@example.org> References: <joseph67@example.org> <joseph67@example.org> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.3 (1.0.3-6) Date: 02 Nov 2002 21:09:49 +1100 Message-Id: <1036231791.1245.31566.camel@ighp> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N Sylvain Wallez wrote: <snip/> > > That's why I have built a short home page at > http://www.apache.org/~sylvain where I briefly present myself. It's not > about pushing my ego, but about showing who's behind the abstract > joseph67@example.org. > > I'd like to propose each committer to build a simple home page like that > one. Knowing each other is the first step towards building a stronger > community. And presenting ourselves to the outer world (this list is > closed) is a step towards widening that community. Okay, i have done mine ... using our wonderful Apache Forrest. I have also added a brief overview explaining how. http://cvs.apache.org/~crossley/ --David From joseph67@example.org Sat Nov 2 15:09:35 2002 Return-Path: <joseph67@example.org> Mailing-List: contact joseph67@example.org; run by ezmlm Delivered-To: mailing list joseph67@example.org Received: (qmail 70976 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2002 15:09:35 -0000 Received: from icarus.apache.org (83.161.120.155) by daedalus.apache.org with SMTP; 2 Nov 2002 15:09:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 39758 invoked by uid 1004); 2 Nov 2002 15:09:30 -0000 Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 07:09:30 -0800 From: Glenn Nielsen <joseph67@example.org> To: joseph67@example.org Subject: Re: [VOTE] Openness Message-ID: <joseph67@example.org> Reply-To: joseph67@example.org References: <joseph67@example.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <joseph67@example.org>; from joseph67@example.org on Wed, Oct 30, 2002 at 06:19:03PM +0100 X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N > VOTE 1: would you like to make it possible for non-committers to read > this mail list thru a web archive? > > [X] +1 yes, let's make it readable > [ ] 0 don't know/don't care > [ ] -1 no, let's keep it private > > > - o - > > > VOTE 2: would you like to make it possible for non-committers to fully > subscribe to this mail list? > > [ ] +1 yes, let's open it to everyone > [ ] 0 don't know/don't care > [X] -1 no, let's keep it for committers only > From joseph67@example.org Sat Nov 2 15:24:41 2002 Return-Path: <joseph67@example.org> Mailing-List: contact joseph67@example.org; run by ezmlm Delivered-To: mailing list joseph67@example.org Received: (qmail 77346 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2002 15:24:41 -0000 Received: from smtp3.libero.it (83.161.120.155) by daedalus.apache.org with SMTP; 2 Nov 2002 15:24:41 -0000 Received: from apache.org (83.161.120.155) by smtp3.libero.it (6.5.028) id 3DC15310000DB5E1 for joseph67@example.org; Sat, 2 Nov 2002 16:24:38 +0100 Message-ID: <joseph67@example.org> Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 11:21:25 +0100 From: Stefano Mazzocchi <joseph67@example.org> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.2b) Gecko/20021016 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: joseph67@example.org Subject: [vote result] openness Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N Se allowed three full earth rotations to allow everyone in the world to have time to partecipate in this discussion without restricting anybody due to geographical differences. Here are the raw results. - o - VOTE 1: would you like to make it possible for non-committers to read this mail list thru a web archive? +1 Sanjiva, Henry, Steven, Bert, Raphael, Stephen, Sander, Morgan, David, Sam, Chuck, Scott, James, Danny, Costin, Bill, Ignacio, David W., Robert, Andrew, Craig, Sylvain, Rodney, James C., Kurt, Roy, Jim, Ceki, Elena, Leo, John, Jeff, Ted, Carsten, Conor, Marcus, Stefan, Diana, David C., Dirk, Henri, Astrid, Ovidiu, Glyn [44 votes] 0 Daniel, Thom, Torsen, Andre, Marc, Joe, Vadim, Ilene [8 votes] -1 Ken, Paul, Justin, Brad, Greg, Sander S., Michael, Fitz, Rich, Erik, Peter, Martin, Rainer, Jean-frederic, Peter R., Giacomo, Shane [17 votes] - o - VOTE 2: would you like to make it possible for non-committers to fully subscribe to this mail list? +1 Sanjiva, Steven, Bert, Stephen, Morgan, Costin, Bill, Ignacio, Andrew, Craig, Rodney, Marcus, Diana, David C, Dirk [15 votes] 0 Sam, Scott, Jim, Conor [4 votes] -1 Henry, Daniel, Raphael, Sander, Ken, David, Chuck, James, Danny, Paul, Justin, Thom, Brad, Greg, David W., Robert, Sander S., Michael, Torsen, Andre, Fitz, Sylvain, Rich, Erik, James C., Kurt, Roy, Ceki, Marc, Joe, Elena, Peter, Leo, John, Martin, Vadim, Jeff, Ted, Rainer, Carsten, Jean-frederic, Stefan, Peter R., Henri, Giacomo, Astrid, Shane, Ovidiu, Glyn, Ilene [50 votes] - o - 69 ASF committers expressed their votes. The resulting actions will be: 1) this list will be archived and the archives pubblicly made available I would suggest using 'EyeBrowse' web mail archive system (see http://nagoya.apache.org/) 2) subscription and posting on this list will remain close to committers. If a committer would like somebody which is not an ASF committer to be able to subscribe on this list, he/she will require the explicit vote of this list (where lazy consensus will apply) of this list. Thank you. -- Stefano Mazzocchi <joseph67@example.org> -------------------------------------------------------------------- From joseph67@example.org Sat Nov 2 15:24:45 2002 Return-Path: <joseph67@example.org> Mailing-List: contact joseph67@example.org; run by ezmlm Delivered-To: mailing list joseph67@example.org Received: (qmail 77355 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2002 15:24:45 -0000 Received: from smtp1.libero.it (83.161.120.155) by daedalus.apache.org with SMTP; 2 Nov 2002 15:24:45 -0000 Received: from apache.org (83.161.120.155) by smtp1.libero.it (6.5.028) id 3DC25E460008A6D1 for joseph67@example.org; Sat, 2 Nov 2002 16:24:43 +0100 Message-ID: <joseph67@example.org> Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 11:31:26 +0100 From: Stefano Mazzocchi <joseph67@example.org> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.2b) Gecko/20021016 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: joseph67@example.org Subject: comments on the votes Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N The previous message was a dry summary of the votation, but here I would like to comment it. First of all, I was very happy to see that 'openness' doesn't appear to be a quality of any particular group of people. I perceive this somewhat reducing the value of Sam's thesis that jakarta has an 'open' attitude that the rest of the ASF doesn't have. I saw individuals voting on their own personal feelings and the results where that voting results are very diverse. I consider this a healthy sign that communication is really taking place and this list might well make a difference in the creation of the *perception* of a ASF-wide community. Moreover, the majority expressed no reasons to restrict the 'transparency' of this list (thru public archives), but was concerned on the ability for everybody to subscribe, but my perception is that it was not due to some 'unopen' practices, but only to the worry that S/N ratio would lower as it happens, for example, on general@jakarta The result of this votation turns this list into a sort of 'house of representatives' where only elected people are able to talk, but everyone is able to read the digests. Ah, one personal comment, we really need a better voting system :) doing it by hand is boring and very time consuming :/ Roy, how do we use your voting system? can it be extended to committers? -- Stefano Mazzocchi <joseph67@example.org> -------------------------------------------------------------------- From joseph67@example.org Sat Nov 2 15:26:53 2002 Return-Path: <joseph67@example.org> Mailing-List: contact joseph67@example.org; run by ezmlm Delivered-To: mailing list joseph67@example.org Received: (qmail 78739 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2002 15:26:53 -0000 Received: from smtp3.libero.it (83.161.120.155) by daedalus.apache.org with SMTP; 2 Nov 2002 15:26:53 -0000 Received: from apache.org (83.161.120.155) by smtp3.libero.it (6.5.028) id 3DC15310000DB9E9 for joseph67@example.org; Sat, 2 Nov 2002 16:26:50 +0100 Message-ID: <joseph67@example.org> Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 16:29:16 +0100 From: Stefano Mazzocchi <joseph67@example.org> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.2b) Gecko/20021016 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: joseph67@example.org Subject: Re: [VOTE] Openness References: <joseph67@example.org> <joseph67@example.org> In-Reply-To: <joseph67@example.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N Glenn Nielsen wrote: > >VOTE 1: would you like to make it possible for non-committers to read > >this mail list thru a web archive? > > > > [X] +1 yes, let's make it readable > > [ ] 0 don't know/don't care > > [ ] -1 no, let's keep it private > > > > > > - o - > > > > > >VOTE 2: would you like to make it possible for non-committers to fully > >subscribe to this mail list? > > > > [ ] +1 yes, let's open it to everyone > > [ ] 0 don't know/don't care > > [X] -1 no, let's keep it for committers only > > Sorry Glenn, the vote was closed. But since the result was exactly what you wanted I don't think this upsets you :) -- Stefano Mazzocchi <joseph67@example.org> -------------------------------------------------------------------- From joseph67@example.org Sat Nov 2 15:40:14 2002 Return-Path: <joseph67@example.org> Mailing-List: contact joseph67@example.org; run by ezmlm Delivered-To: mailing list joseph67@example.org Received: (qmail 83431 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2002 15:40:14 -0000 Received: from icarus.apache.org (83.161.120.155) by daedalus.apache.org with SMTP; 2 Nov 2002 15:40:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 47769 invoked by uid 1004); 2 Nov 2002 15:40:14 -0000 Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 07:40:14 -0800 From: Glenn Nielsen <joseph67@example.org> To: joseph67@example.org Subject: Re: [VOTE] Openness Message-ID: <joseph67@example.org> Reply-To: joseph67@example.org References: <joseph67@example.org> <joseph67@example.org> <joseph67@example.org> <joseph67@example.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <joseph67@example.org>; from joseph67@example.org on Sat, Nov 02, 2002 at 04:29:16PM +0100 X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N On Sat, Nov 02, 2002 at 04:29:16PM +0100, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote: > Glenn Nielsen wrote: > > > >VOTE 1: would you like to make it possible for non-committers to read > > >this mail list thru a web archive? > > > > > > [X] +1 yes, let's make it readable > > > [ ] 0 don't know/don't care > > > [ ] -1 no, let's keep it private > > > > > > > > > - o - > > > > > > > > >VOTE 2: would you like to make it possible for non-committers to fully > > >subscribe to this mail list? > > > > > > [ ] +1 yes, let's open it to everyone > > > [ ] 0 don't know/don't care > > > [X] -1 no, let's keep it for committers only > > > > > Sorry Glenn, the vote was closed. But since the result was exactly what > you wanted I don't think this upsets you :) > Hmmm. I looked at the datestamp of the original vote message and it looked like I was under the 78 hour window for voting. But you are correct, it doesn't matter since I am just affirming the result. Glenn From joseph67@example.org Sat Nov 2 17:12:40 2002 Return-Path: <joseph67@example.org> Mailing-List: contact joseph67@example.org; run by ezmlm Delivered-To: mailing list joseph67@example.org Received: (qmail 18693 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2002 17:12:40 -0000 Received: from scandium.sabren.com (83.161.120.155) by daedalus.apache.org with SMTP; 2 Nov 2002 17:12:40 -0000 Received: from apache.org (rdu57-27-066.nc.rr.com [83.161.120.155]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by scandium.sabren.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gA2HDB206142 for <joseph67@example.org>; Sat, 2 Nov 2002 12:13:11 -0500 Message-ID: <joseph67@example.org> Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 12:12:10 -0500 From: Sam Ruby <joseph67@example.org> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.1) Gecko/20020826 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: joseph67@example.org Subject: Re: comments on the votes References: <joseph67@example.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 83.161.120.155 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N Stefano Mazzocchi wrote: > > First of all, I was very happy to see that 'openness' doesn't appear to > be a quality of any particular group of people. I perceive this somewhat > reducing the value of Sam's thesis that jakarta has an 'open' attitude > that the rest of the ASF doesn't have. +1 - Sam Ruby From joseph67@example.org Sat Nov 2 18:22:24 2002 Return-Path: <joseph67@example.org> Mailing-List: contact joseph67@example.org; run by ezmlm Delivered-To: mailing list joseph67@example.org Delivered-To: moderator for joseph67@example.org Received: (qmail 43867 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2002 18:22:24 -0000 Received: from mail.hospitable.be (HELO relay.hospitable.be) (83.161.120.155) by daedalus.apache.org with SMTP; 2 Nov 2002 18:22:24 -0000 Received: from bert-dell.vankets.com (unknown [83.161.120.155]) by relay.hospitable.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFC06A173D for <joseph67@example.org>; Sat, 2 Nov 2002 19:20:12 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <joseph67@example.org> X-Sender: joseph67@example.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 19:18:50 +0100 To: joseph67@example.org From: Bert Van Kets <joseph67@example.org> Subject: Re: Committers home pages In-Reply-To: <1036231791.1245.31566.camel@ighp> References: <joseph67@example.org> <joseph67@example.org> <joseph67@example.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N Seems like the Forrest skin is getting to be the most used skin on the web. ;-) Bert At 21:09 2/11/2002 +1100, you wrote: > Sylvain Wallez wrote: ><snip/> > > > > That's why I have built a short home page at > > http://www.apache.org/~sylvain where I briefly present myself. It's not > > about pushing my ego, but about showing who's behind the abstract > > joseph67@example.org. > > > > I'd like to propose each committer to build a simple home page like that > > one. Knowing each other is the first step towards building a stronger > > community. And presenting ourselves to the outer world (this list is > > closed) is a step towards widening that community. > >Okay, i have done mine ... using our wonderful Apache Forrest. >I have also added a brief overview explaining how. >http://cvs.apache.org/~crossley/ > >--David > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: joseph67@example.org >For additional commands, e-mail: joseph67@example.org From joseph67@example.org Sat Nov 2 21:34:07 2002 Return-Path: <joseph67@example.org> Mailing-List: contact joseph67@example.org; run by ezmlm Delivered-To: mailing list joseph67@example.org Received: (qmail 9983 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2002 21:34:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO set.superlinksoftware.com) (83.161.120.155) by daedalus.apache.org with SMTP; 2 Nov 2002 21:34:07 -0000 Received: from rdu26-72-100.nc.rr.com ([83.161.120.155]) by set.superlinksoftware.com (JAMES SMTP Server 2.1a1-cvs) with SMTP ID 474 for <joseph67@example.org>; Sat, 2 Nov 2002 16:18:29 -0500 Message-ID: <joseph67@example.org> Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 16:32:11 -0500 From: "Andrew C. Oliver" <joseph67@example.org> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.2b) Gecko/20021016 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: joseph67@example.org Subject: Re: comments on the votes References: <joseph67@example.org> In-Reply-To: <joseph67@example.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N Stefano Mazzocchi wrote: > > Ah, one personal comment, we really need a better voting system :) > doing it by hand is boring and very time consuming :/ > +1 > > From joseph67@example.org Sat Nov 2 21:34:08 2002 Return-Path: <joseph67@example.org> Mailing-List: contact joseph67@example.org; run by ezmlm Delivered-To: mailing list joseph67@example.org Received: (qmail 10027 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2002 21:34:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO set.superlinksoftware.com) (83.161.120.155) by daedalus.apache.org with SMTP; 2 Nov 2002 21:34:08 -0000 Received: from rdu26-72-100.nc.rr.com ([83.161.120.155]) by set.superlinksoftware.com (JAMES SMTP Server 2.1a1-cvs) with SMTP ID 567 for <joseph67@example.org>; Sat, 2 Nov 2002 16:19:23 -0500 Message-ID: <joseph67@example.org> Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 16:33:05 -0500 From: "Andrew C. Oliver" <joseph67@example.org> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.2b) Gecko/20021016 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: joseph67@example.org Subject: Re: [VOTE] Openness References: <joseph67@example.org> <joseph67@example.org> <joseph67@example.org> <joseph67@example.org> <joseph67@example.org> In-Reply-To: <joseph67@example.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N > > >Hmmm. I looked at the datestamp of the original vote message and it >looked like I was under the 78 hour window for voting. But you are >correct, it doesn't matter since I am just affirming the result. > > I thought it was 72 hrs ? ;-) >Glenn > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: joseph67@example.org >For additional commands, e-mail: joseph67@example.org > > > > From joseph67@example.org Sat Nov 2 22:38:32 2002 Return-Path: <joseph67@example.org> Mailing-List: contact joseph67@example.org; run by ezmlm Delivered-To: mailing list joseph67@example.org Received: (qmail 25475 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2002 22:38:32 -0000 Received: from ns1.wow.lk (HELO mail.wow.lk) (83.161.120.155) by daedalus.apache.org with SMTP; 2 Nov 2002 22:38:32 -0000 Received: from lankabook2 ([83.161.120.155]) by mail.wow.lk (InterMail vK.83.161.120.155 201-232-130 license b6e8ccbc82eedafc1172e92f3ffd8431) with SMTP id <20021102223019.ZMJM3660.mail@lankabook2> for <joseph67@example.org>; Sun, 3 Nov 2002 04:30:19 +0600 Message-ID: <004401c282c0$52abaeb0$6900a8c0@lankabook2> From: "Sanjiva Weerawarana" <joseph67@example.org> To: <joseph67@example.org> References: <joseph67@example.org> Subject: Re: comments on the votes Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 04:36:44 +0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N Hi Stefano, It looks like there were only 69 votes cast. How many committers do we have in all? My intuition had been that it was >> 69, but I could be wrong. I wonder whether this list has brought over a sufficient mass of the community to be representative of the community. One could of course argue that for this particular list we only care about the opinion of the members of this list .. Sanjiva. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stefano Mazzocchi" <joseph67@example.org> To: <joseph67@example.org> Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002 4:31 PM Subject: comments on the votes > The previous message was a dry summary of the votation, but here I would > like to comment it. > > First of all, I was very happy to see that 'openness' doesn't appear to > be a quality of any particular group of people. I perceive this somewhat > reducing the value of Sam's thesis that jakarta has an 'open' attitude > that the rest of the ASF doesn't have. > > I saw individuals voting on their own personal feelings and the results > where that voting results are very diverse. > > I consider this a healthy sign that communication is really taking place > and this list might well make a difference in the creation of the > *perception* of a ASF-wide community. > > Moreover, the majority expressed no reasons to restrict the > 'transparency' of this list (thru public archives), but was concerned on > the ability for everybody to subscribe, but my perception is that it was > not due to some 'unopen' practices, but only to the worry that S/N ratio > would lower as it happens, for example, on general@jakarta > > The result of this votation turns this list into a sort of 'house of > representatives' where only elected people are able to talk, but > everyone is able to read the digests. > > Ah, one personal comment, we really need a better voting system :) doing > it by hand is boring and very time consuming :/ > > Roy, how do we use your voting system? can it be extended to committers? > > -- > Stefano Mazzocchi <joseph67@example.org> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: joseph67@example.org > For additional commands, e-mail: joseph67@example.org > > From joseph67@example.org Sun Nov 3 00:18:47 2002 Return-Path: <joseph67@example.org> Mailing-List: contact joseph67@example.org; run by ezmlm Delivered-To: mailing list joseph67@example.org Received: (qmail 50194 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2002 00:18:47 -0000 Received: from icarus.apache.org (83.161.120.155) by daedalus.apache.org with SMTP; 3 Nov 2002 00:18:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 30292 invoked by uid 1304); 3 Nov 2002 00:18:43 -0000 Received: from localhost (joseph67@example.org) by localhost with SMTP; 3 Nov 2002 00:18:43 -0000 Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 16:18:43 -0800 (PST) From: Rodney Waldhoff <joseph67@example.org> To: joseph67@example.org Subject: Re: comments on the votes In-Reply-To: <004401c282c0$52abaeb0$6900a8c0@lankabook2> Message-ID: <joseph67@example.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Rating: localhost 1.6.2 0/1000/N X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N On Sun, 3 Nov 2002, Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote: > It looks like there were only 69 votes cast. How many committers > do we have in all? My intuition had been that it was >> 69, but I > could be wrong. The nifty page Jim Jagielski put together at http://apache.org/~jim/committers.html (and thanks Jim, it really is nifty) lists 572 committers by my count, which makes 69 votes just over 12%, but the number of active commiters may be significantly lower. On a related note, can someone report how many subscribers are currently on the community list? - Rod From joseph67@example.org Sun Nov 3 00:22:57 2002 Return-Path: <joseph67@example.org> Mailing-List: contact joseph67@example.org; run by ezmlm Delivered-To: mailing list joseph67@example.org Received: (qmail 51206 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2002 00:22:57 -0000 Received: from mail014.syd.optusnet.com.au (83.161.120.155) by daedalus.apache.org with SMTP; 3 Nov 2002 00:22:57 -0000 Received: from brainstem.dyndns.org (c17243.thoms1.vic.optusnet.com.au [83.161.120.155]) by mail014.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id gA30N3H13610 for <joseph67@example.org>; Sun, 3 Nov 2002 11:23:03 +1100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Peter Donald <joseph67@example.org> To: joseph67@example.org Subject: Re: comments on the votes Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 12:30:39 +1100 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.2 References: <joseph67@example.org> In-Reply-To: <joseph67@example.org> X-Wisdom: A right is not what someone gives you; it's what no one can take from you. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <joseph67@example.org> X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N On Sun, 3 Nov 2002 11:18, Rodney Waldhoff wrote: > On a related note, can someone report how many subscribers are currentl= y > on the community list? 134 --=20 Cheers, Peter Donald 'Most men would rather die than think. Many do.' Bertrand Russell From joseph67@example.org Sun Nov 3 01:10:04 2002 Return-Path: <joseph67@example.org> Mailing-List: contact joseph67@example.org; run by ezmlm Delivered-To: mailing list joseph67@example.org Received: (qmail 62449 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2002 01:10:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO set.superlinksoftware.com) (83.161.120.155) by daedalus.apache.org with SMTP; 3 Nov 2002 01:10:04 -0000 Received: from rdu26-72-100.nc.rr.com ([83.161.120.155]) by set.superlinksoftware.com (JAMES SMTP Server 2.1a1-cvs) with SMTP ID 960 for <joseph67@example.org>; Sat, 2 Nov 2002 19:54:26 -0500 Message-ID: <joseph67@example.org> Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 20:08:10 -0500 From: "Andrew C. Oliver" <joseph67@example.org> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.2b) Gecko/20021016 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: joseph67@example.org Subject: Re: comments on the votes References: <joseph67@example.org> <004401c282c0$52abaeb0$6900a8c0@lankabook2> In-Reply-To: <joseph67@example.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N I would not expect for most votes to get more than a 25-50% turnout provided the vote is going the direction the person would like. Ken gave a subscription figure that was much higher, so I suspect that this was the result of the silent majority feeling sufficiently represented. Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote: >Hi Stefano, > >It looks like there were only 69 votes cast. How many committers >do we have in all? My intuition had been that it was >> 69, but I >could be wrong. > >I wonder whether this list has brought over a sufficient mass >of the community to be representative of the community. One could >of course argue that for this particular list we only care about >the opinion of the members of this list .. > >Sanjiva. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Stefano Mazzocchi" <joseph67@example.org> >To: <joseph67@example.org> >Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002 4:31 PM >Subject: comments on the votes > > > > >>The previous message was a dry summary of the votation, but here I would >>like to comment it. >> >>First of all, I was very happy to see that 'openness' doesn't appear to >>be a quality of any particular group of people. I perceive this somewhat >>reducing the value of Sam's thesis that jakarta has an 'open' attitude >>that the rest of the ASF doesn't have. >> >>I saw individuals voting on their own personal feelings and the results >>where that voting results are very diverse. >> >>I consider this a healthy sign that communication is really taking place >>and this list might well make a difference in the creation of the >>*perception* of a ASF-wide community. >> >>Moreover, the majority expressed no reasons to restrict the >>'transparency' of this list (thru public archives), but was concerned on >>the ability for everybody to subscribe, but my perception is that it was >>not due to some 'unopen' practices, but only to the worry that S/N ratio >>would lower as it happens, for example, on general@jakarta >> >>The result of this votation turns this list into a sort of 'house of >>representatives' where only elected people are able to talk, but >>everyone is able to read the digests. >> >>Ah, one personal comment, we really need a better voting system :) doing >>it by hand is boring and very time consuming :/ >> >>Roy, how do we use your voting system? can it be extended to committers? >> >>-- >>Stefano Mazzocchi <joseph67@example.org> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> >>--------------------------------------------------------------------- >>To unsubscribe, e-mail: joseph67@example.org >>For additional commands, e-mail: joseph67@example.org >> >> >> >> > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: joseph67@example.org >For additional commands, e-mail: joseph67@example.org > > > > From joseph67@example.org Sun Nov 3 09:39:30 2002 Return-Path: <joseph67@example.org> Mailing-List: contact joseph67@example.org; run by ezmlm Delivered-To: mailing list joseph67@example.org Received: (qmail 75564 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2002 09:39:30 -0000 Received: from www.jetnet.co.uk (83.161.120.155) by daedalus.apache.org with SMTP; 3 Nov 2002 09:39:30 -0000 Received: from goliath (host217-41-46-197.in-addr.btopenworld.com [83.161.120.155]) by www.jetnet.co.uk (Postfix) with SMTP id A712D734DF for <joseph67@example.org>; Sun, 3 Nov 2002 09:39:42 +0000 (GMT/BST) Message-ID: <005c01c2831d$33c8c0c0$7500a8c0@goliath> From: "David Reid" <joseph67@example.org> To: <joseph67@example.org> References: <joseph67@example.org> <004401c282c0$52abaeb0$6900a8c0@lankabook2> <joseph67@example.org> Subject: Re: comments on the votes Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 09:41:36 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N Or that they thought the whole thing was so ridiculous that they couldn't be bothered replying... david ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew C. Oliver" <joseph67@example.org> To: <joseph67@example.org> Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 1:08 AM Subject: Re: comments on the votes > I would not expect for most votes to get more than a 25-50% turnout > provided the vote is going the direction the person would like. Ken > gave a subscription figure that was much higher, so I suspect that this > was the result of the silent majority feeling sufficiently represented. > > Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote: > > >Hi Stefano, > > > >It looks like there were only 69 votes cast. How many committers > >do we have in all? My intuition had been that it was >> 69, but I > >could be wrong. > > > >I wonder whether this list has brought over a sufficient mass > >of the community to be representative of the community. One could > >of course argue that for this particular list we only care about > >the opinion of the members of this list .. > > > >Sanjiva. > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Stefano Mazzocchi" <joseph67@example.org> > >To: <joseph67@example.org> > >Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002 4:31 PM > >Subject: comments on the votes > > > > > > > > > >>The previous message was a dry summary of the votation, but here I would > >>like to comment it. > >> > >>First of all, I was very happy to see that 'openness' doesn't appear to > >>be a quality of any particular group of people. I perceive this somewhat > >>reducing the value of Sam's thesis that jakarta has an 'open' attitude > >>that the rest of the ASF doesn't have. > >> > >>I saw individuals voting on their own personal feelings and the results > >>where that voting results are very diverse. > >> > >>I consider this a healthy sign that communication is really taking place > >>and this list might well make a difference in the creation of the > >>*perception* of a ASF-wide community. > >> > >>Moreover, the majority expressed no reasons to restrict the > >>'transparency' of this list (thru public archives), but was concerned on > >>the ability for everybody to subscribe, but my perception is that it was > >>not due to some 'unopen' practices, but only to the worry that S/N ratio > >>would lower as it happens, for example, on general@jakarta > >> > >>The result of this votation turns this list into a sort of 'house of > >>representatives' where only elected people are able to talk, but > >>everyone is able to read the digests. > >> > >>Ah, one personal comment, we really need a better voting system :) doing > >>it by hand is boring and very time consuming :/ > >> > >>Roy, how do we use your voting system? can it be extended to committers? > >> > >>-- > >>Stefano Mazzocchi <joseph67@example.org> > >>-------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>--------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>To unsubscribe, e-mail: joseph67@example.org > >>For additional commands, e-mail: joseph67@example.org > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > >To unsubscribe, e-mail: joseph67@example.org > >For additional commands, e-mail: joseph67@example.org > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: joseph67@example.org > For additional commands, e-mail: joseph67@example.org > > From joseph67@example.org Sun Nov 3 21:36:18 2002 Return-Path: <joseph67@example.org> Mailing-List: contact joseph67@example.org; run by ezmlm Delivered-To: mailing list joseph67@example.org Received: (qmail 785 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2002 21:36:18 -0000 Received: from fia224-72.dsl.hccnet.nl (HELO foem.leiden.webweaving.org) (83.161.120.155) by daedalus.apache.org with SMTP; 3 Nov 2002 21:36:18 -0000 Received: from foem (foem [83.161.120.155]) by foem.leiden.webweaving.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gA3LaKv7031895 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for <joseph67@example.org>; Sun, 3 Nov 2002 22:36:22 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from joseph67@example.org) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 22:36:20 +0100 (CET) From: Dirk-Willem van Gulik <joseph67@example.org> X-X-Sender: joseph67@example.org To: joseph67@example.org Subject: Re: comments on the votes In-Reply-To: <joseph67@example.org> Message-ID: <joseph67@example.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N On Sat, 2 Nov 2002, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: > Stefano Mazzocchi wrote: > > Ah, one personal comment, we really need a better voting system :) > > doing it by hand is boring and very time consuming :/ > > > +1 The system in ~voter (see foundation cvs) can easily be augmented. My wish list after doing a couple of cycles with it are: -> separate roster file for the voters (i.e. not /etc/group related; but able to take a list (e.g. from CVSROOT/avail or arbitrary)). -> auto embargo, automatic reminders and automatic close. -> have the final output be a bit more refined to make the final count easier (i.e. sort per md5, etc). Dw From joseph67@example.org Sun Nov 3 21:38:34 2002 Return-Path: <joseph67@example.org> Mailing-List: contact joseph67@example.org; run by ezmlm Delivered-To: mailing list joseph67@example.org Received: (qmail 1523 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2002 21:38:34 -0000 Received: from fia224-72.dsl.hccnet.nl (HELO foem.leiden.webweaving.org) (83.161.120.155) by daedalus.apache.org with SMTP; 3 Nov 2002 21:38:34 -0000 Received: from foem (foem [83.161.120.155]) by foem.leiden.webweaving.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gA3Lcdv7031931 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for <joseph67@example.org>; Sun, 3 Nov 2002 22:38:39 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from joseph67@example.org) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 22:38:39 +0100 (CET) From: Dirk-Willem van Gulik <joseph67@example.org> X-X-Sender: joseph67@example.org To: joseph67@example.org Subject: Re: comments on the votes In-Reply-To: <joseph67@example.org> Message-ID: <joseph67@example.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N On Sat, 2 Nov 2002, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: > I would not expect for most votes to get more than a 25-50% turnout > provided the vote is going the direction the person would like. Ken Exactly; I usually watch votes when they are conducted in public; and am more inclined to vote when they go the 'wrong' way. With the much more private voting system of ~voter; or the once we've conducted closed for PMC's in the past; the turn outs are much, much higher. Dw From joseph67@example.org Sun Nov 3 21:43:22 2002 Return-Path: <joseph67@example.org> Mailing-List: contact joseph67@example.org; run by ezmlm Delivered-To: mailing list joseph67@example.org Received: (qmail 3593 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2002 21:43:22 -0000 Received: from smtp3.libero.it (83.161.120.155) by daedalus.apache.org with SMTP; 3 Nov 2002 21:43:22 -0000 Received: from apache.org (83.161.120.155) by smtp3.libero.it (6.5.028) id 3DC1531000167F2D for joseph67@example.org; Sun, 3 Nov 2002 22:43:19 +0100 Message-ID: <joseph67@example.org> Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 13:49:19 +0100 From: Stefano Mazzocchi <joseph67@example.org> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.2b) Gecko/20021016 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: joseph67@example.org Subject: Re: [VOTE] Openness References: <joseph67@example.org> <joseph67@example.org> <joseph67@example.org> <joseph67@example.org> <joseph67@example.org> <joseph67@example.org> In-Reply-To: <joseph67@example.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N Andrew C. Oliver wrote: > > > > > > Hmmm. I looked at the datestamp of the original vote message and it > > looked like I was under the 78 hour window for voting. But you are > > correct, it doesn't matter since I am just affirming the result. > > > > > I thought it was 72 hrs ? ;-) Yeah, right, my mistake. 3 days = 72 hours not 78 :) I can't even count anymore. -- Stefano Mazzocchi <joseph67@example.org> -------------------------------------------------------------------- From joseph67@example.org Sun Nov 3 21:43:24 2002 Return-Path: <joseph67@example.org> Mailing-List: contact joseph67@example.org; run by ezmlm Delivered-To: mailing list joseph67@example.org Received: (qmail 3695 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2002 21:43:24 -0000 Received: from smtp3.libero.it (83.161.120.155) by daedalus.apache.org with SMTP; 3 Nov 2002 21:43:24 -0000 Received: from apache.org (83.161.120.155) by smtp3.libero.it (6.5.028) id 3DC1531000167F5D for joseph67@example.org; Sun, 3 Nov 2002 22:43:24 +0100 Message-ID: <joseph67@example.org> Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 14:07:33 +0100 From: Stefano Mazzocchi <joseph67@example.org> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.2b) Gecko/20021016 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: joseph67@example.org Subject: Re: comments on the votes References: <joseph67@example.org> <004401c282c0$52abaeb0$6900a8c0@lankabook2> In-Reply-To: <joseph67@example.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote: > Hi Stefano, > > It looks like there were only 69 votes cast. Only? This is, in fact, the biggest vote round that ever took place in the ASF or in any group/project/sub-project/commitee. > How
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