From beehive-user-returnkarawilliams@example.com Mon Oct 04 13:28:56 2004 Return-Path: <beehive-user-returnkarawilliams@example.com> Delivered-To: karawilliams@example.com Received: (qmail 23057 invoked from network); 4 Oct 2004 13:28:56 -0000 Received: from hermes.apache.org (HELO mail.apache.org) (83.161.120.155) by minotaur-2.apache.org with SMTP; 4 Oct 2004 13:28:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 39202 invoked by uid 500); 4 Oct 2004 13:27:25 -0000 Delivered-To: karawilliams@example.com Received: (qmail 39122 invoked by uid 500); 4 Oct 2004 13:27:24 -0000 Mailing-List: contact karawilliams@example.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Help: <mailto:karawilliams@example.com> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:karawilliams@example.com> List-Post: <mailto:karawilliams@example.com> List-Id: <beehive-user.incubator.apache.org> Reply-To: "Beehive Users" <karawilliams@example.com> Delivered-To: mailing list karawilliams@example.com Received: (qmail 39039 invoked by uid 99); 4 Oct 2004 13:27:23 -0000 X-ASF-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=10.0 tests=RCVD_BY_IP,SPF_HELO_PASS,SPF_PASS X-Spam-Check-By: apache.org Received-SPF: pass (hermes.apache.org: domain of karawilliams@example.com designates 83.161.120.155 as permitted sender) Received: from [83.161.120.155] (HELO mproxy.gmail.com) (83.161.120.155) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.28) with ESMTP; Mon, 04 Oct 2004 06:27:22 -0700 Received: by mproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id x71so41636cwb for <karawilliams@example.com>; Mon, 04 Oct 2004 06:27:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 83.161.120.155 with SMTP id x6mr274810cwb; Mon, 04 Oct 2004 06:27:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 83.161.120.155 with HTTP; Mon, 4 Oct 2004 06:27:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <karawilliams@example.com> Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 09:27:20 -0400 From: Kevin Conaway <karawilliams@example.com> Reply-To: Kevin Conaway <karawilliams@example.com> To: Kyle Marvin <karawilliams@example.com> Subject: Re: Porting WebLogic Controls to Beehive Controls Cc: Beehive Users <karawilliams@example.com>, Ken Tam <karawilliams@example.com> In-Reply-To: <karawilliams@example.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <karawilliams@example.com> X-Virus-Checked: Checked X-Spam-Rating: minotaur-2.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N Kyle, So basically until both WebLogic and our target containers begin running a 5.0 based JVM, we will not be able to port our code to Beehive? Thanks for the info, Kevin On Fri, 1 Oct 2004 08:47:28 -0700, Kyle Marvin <karawilliams@example.com> wrote: > Hi Kevin, > > Yes, given the scope of the changes Ken describes (a shift in the authoring model to be JSR-175 based and a shift in the runtime model to be JavaBeans based), binary compatibility between previous versions of Workshop Controls and Beehive Controls was not possible. > > > > Thanks for the info. I have one concern though: > > > > If we port our WebLogic controls over to Beehive controls, will we > > still be able to run on WebLogic 8.1 (SP2)? > > Yes, given the scope of the changes Ken describes (a shift in the authoring model to be JSR-175 based and a shift in the runtime model to be JavaBeans based), binary compatibility between previous versions of Workshop Controls and Beehive Controls was not possible. Migration support will be provided, though. > > [Ed. comment: detailed discussion of Workshop+Beehive plans/products/migration might be better conducted on the BEA Workshop Newsgroup (http://forums.bea.com/bea/forum.jspa?forumID=2041) than on the Apache dev user list] > > > It sounds like the > > Beehive controls require the new 1.5 annotations but WebLogic 8.1 only > > supports J2EE 1.3? As a matter of fact, wouldnt that be the same issue > > for most J2EE containers? > > > > There is some confusion above between J2SE and J2EE release. Beehive will require J2SE 5.0 (formerly known as J2SE 1.5), this is independent of the actual J2EE version. Beehive will require that the JVM upon which the J2EE container is running is 5.0 based. Since Sun just released the FCS version of J2SE 5.0 yesterday, we anticipate that many container vendors (including Weblogic) will begin testing/certifying this configuration as Beehive heads towards a 1.0 release. > > Hope this helps! > > -- Kyle > From beehive-user-returnkarawilliams@example.com Mon Oct 04 14:35:33 2004 Return-Path: <beehive-user-returnkarawilliams@example.com> Delivered-To: karawilliams@example.com Received: (qmail 67023 invoked from network); 4 Oct 2004 14:35:33 -0000 Received: from hermes.apache.org (HELO mail.apache.org) (83.161.120.155) by minotaur-2.apache.org with SMTP; 4 Oct 2004 14:35:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 39200 invoked by uid 500); 4 Oct 2004 14:23:24 -0000 Delivered-To: karawilliams@example.com Received: (qmail 39087 invoked by uid 500); 4 Oct 2004 14:23:23 -0000 Mailing-List: contact karawilliams@example.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Help: <mailto:karawilliams@example.com> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:karawilliams@example.com> List-Post: <mailto:karawilliams@example.com> List-Id: <beehive-user.incubator.apache.org> Reply-To: "Beehive Users" <karawilliams@example.com> Delivered-To: mailing list karawilliams@example.com Received: (qmail 38971 invoked by uid 99); 4 Oct 2004 14:23:21 -0000 X-ASF-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.2 required=10.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE,FORGED_YAHOO_RCVD X-Spam-Check-By: apache.org Received-SPF: pass (hermes.apache.org: local policy) Received: from [83.161.120.155] (HELO web90001.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (83.161.120.155) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.28) with SMTP; Mon, 04 Oct 2004 07:23:19 -0700 Message-ID: <karawilliams@example.com> Received: from [83.161.120.155] by web90001.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 04 Oct 2004 07:23:18 PDT Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 07:23:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Pedro Lopez <karawilliams@example.com> Subject: How to get started To: Beehive Users <karawilliams@example.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Checked: Checked X-Spam-Rating: minotaur-2.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N Hi everyone, I am really interested to learn and use Beehive, because for the last 2 years we have been using Struts 1.1 deploying on BEA, and I have grown somewhat tire of the amount of code that needs to be maintain/created (forms, beans, etc) to make our application run. My question is, what is the best way to get started? Is there a good document, manual or "How-to" that I can use as a reference? I have been reading the documentations available on Dev2Dev.com and the official Beehive website, but so far I haven't found anything that could help me get started. I have some notion of what I need to do but I would like to find out if I am going in the right direction. Any word of guidance is more than welcome. Thanks Pedro Lopez Sr. Software Engineer Scripps Networks. karawilliams@example.com _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From beehive-user-returnkarawilliams@example.com Mon Oct 04 14:40:04 2004 Return-Path: <beehive-user-returnkarawilliams@example.com> Delivered-To: karawilliams@example.com Received: (qmail 69713 invoked from network); 4 Oct 2004 14:40:02 -0000 Received: from hermes.apache.org (HELO mail.apache.org) (83.161.120.155) by minotaur-2.apache.org with SMTP; 4 Oct 2004 14:40:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 74764 invoked by uid 500); 4 Oct 2004 14:39:41 -0000 Delivered-To: karawilliams@example.com Received: (qmail 74624 invoked by uid 500); 4 Oct 2004 14:39:39 -0000 Mailing-List: contact karawilliams@example.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Help: <mailto:karawilliams@example.com> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:karawilliams@example.com> List-Post: <mailto:karawilliams@example.com> List-Id: <beehive-user.incubator.apache.org> Reply-To: "Beehive Users" <karawilliams@example.com> Delivered-To: mailing list karawilliams@example.com Received: (qmail 74405 invoked by uid 99); 4 Oct 2004 14:39:37 -0000 X-ASF-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=10.0 tests= X-Spam-Check-By: apache.org Received-SPF: pass (hermes.apache.org: local policy) Received: from [83.161.120.155] (HELO ukhwmh01.bea.com) (83.161.120.155) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.28) with ESMTP; Mon, 04 Oct 2004 07:39:35 -0700 Received: from UKHWEX01.emea.bea.com (ukhwex01.bea.com [83.161.120.155]) by ukhwmh01.bea.com (Switch-3.0.5/Switch-3.0.0) with ESMTP id i94EdVDF026599 for <karawilliams@example.com>; Mon, 4 Oct 2004 15:39:31 +0100 Received: from FRPAEX01.emea.bea.com ([83.161.120.155]) by UKHWEX01.emea.bea.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6747); Mon, 4 Oct 2004 15:39:31 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: How to get started Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 16:39:30 +0200 Message-ID: <karawilliams@example.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: How to get started Thread-Index: AcSqHhieQsm6LP1ZQ0+yaRzGff4WoQAAMtZg From: "Matteo Gerosa" <karawilliams@example.com> To: "Beehive Users" <karawilliams@example.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Oct 2004 14:39:31.0597 (UTC) FILETIME=[F5B16BD0:01C4AA1F] X-Virus-Checked: Checked X-Spam-Rating: minotaur-2.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N Hello Pedro, just before letting a more exaustive answer up to Beehive's Guru(s), I'd = suggest you to point yourself at http://dev2dev.bea.com to gather last = BEA news about Beehive, then, assumed that for the moment JDK 1.5 = Annotations are not available in a stable way, if I were you I'd begin = downloading WebLogic Workshop 8.1 (currently at SP3) starting to play = around at least with basic visual components you can find in the IDE; = if I'm not wrong at all, in theory annotations would be drafted around = that kind of visual components (i.e.: Java Page-Flows), evolving from = the basic Struts. Hope it helps some way, MatteoG Matteo Gerosa Business Consultant Senior=20 it.bea.com <http://it.bea.com/> www.bea.com <http://www.bea.com> =09 =09 -----Original Message----- From: Pedro Lopez [mailto:karawilliams@example.com] Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 4:23 PM To: Beehive Users Subject: How to get started Hi everyone, I am really interested to learn and use Beehive, because for the last 2 years we have been using Struts 1.1 deploying on BEA, and I have grown somewhat tire of the amount of code that needs to be maintain/created (forms, beans, etc) to make our application run.=20 My question is, what is the best way to get started? Is there a good document, manual or "How-to" that I can use as a reference? I have been reading the documentations available on Dev2Dev.com and the official Beehive website, but so far I haven't found anything that could help me get started. I have some notion of what I need to do but I would like to find out if I am going in the right direction. Any word of guidance is more than welcome. Thanks Pedro Lopez Sr. Software Engineer Scripps Networks. karawilliams@example.com =09 _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From beehive-user-returnkarawilliams@example.com Mon Oct 04 15:15:50 2004 Return-Path: <beehive-user-returnkarawilliams@example.com> Delivered-To: karawilliams@example.com Received: (qmail 94032 invoked from network); 4 Oct 2004 15:15:50 -0000 Received: from hermes.apache.org (HELO mail.apache.org) (83.161.120.155) by minotaur-2.apache.org with SMTP; 4 Oct 2004 15:15:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 39533 invoked by uid 500); 4 Oct 2004 15:15:48 -0000 Delivered-To: karawilliams@example.com Received: (qmail 39394 invoked by uid 500); 4 Oct 2004 15:15:47 -0000 Mailing-List: contact karawilliams@example.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Help: <mailto:karawilliams@example.com> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:karawilliams@example.com> List-Post: <mailto:karawilliams@example.com> List-Id: <beehive-user.incubator.apache.org> Reply-To: "Beehive Users" <karawilliams@example.com> Delivered-To: mailing list karawilliams@example.com Received: (qmail 39376 invoked by uid 99); 4 Oct 2004 15:15:47 -0000 X-ASF-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.2 required=10.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE,FORGED_YAHOO_RCVD X-Spam-Check-By: apache.org Received-SPF: pass (hermes.apache.org: local policy) Received: from [83.161.120.155] (HELO web90002.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (83.161.120.155) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.28) with SMTP; Mon, 04 Oct 2004 08:15:45 -0700 Message-ID: <karawilliams@example.com> Received: from [83.161.120.155] by web90002.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 04 Oct 2004 08:15:44 PDT Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 08:15:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Pedro Lopez <karawilliams@example.com> Subject: RE: How to get started To: Beehive Users <karawilliams@example.com> In-Reply-To: <karawilliams@example.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Checked: Checked X-Spam-Rating: minotaur-2.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N Matteo, Thanks for your email. I have been reading the material in th web site (dev2dev.bea.com), also I have a running copy of Workshop 8.1 sp3. However though, I was hoping I could start using Eclipse (which is our standard IDE) and start Beehive instead of BEA's own flavor (which I understand is the same thing). We favor Open Source architectures because the obvious benefits. Thanks Pedro --- Matteo Gerosa <karawilliams@example.com> wrote: > Hello Pedro, > > just before letting a more exaustive answer up to > Beehive's Guru(s), I'd suggest you to point yourself > at http://dev2dev.bea.com to gather last BEA news > about Beehive, then, assumed that for the moment JDK > 1.5 Annotations are not available in a stable way, > if I were you I'd begin downloading WebLogic > Workshop 8.1 (currently at SP3) starting to play > around at least with basic visual components you can > find in the IDE; if I'm not wrong at all, in theory > annotations would be drafted around that kind of > visual components (i.e.: Java Page-Flows), evolving > from the basic Struts. > > Hope it helps some way, > MatteoG > > > Matteo Gerosa > Business Consultant Senior > > it.bea.com <http://it.bea.com/> > www.bea.com <http://www.bea.com> > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pedro Lopez [mailto:karawilliams@example.com] > Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 4:23 PM > To: Beehive Users > Subject: How to get started > > > Hi everyone, > > I am really interested to learn and use Beehive, > because for the last 2 years we have been using > Struts > 1.1 deploying on BEA, and I have grown somewhat tire > of the amount of code that needs to be > maintain/created (forms, beans, etc) to make our > application run. > > My question is, what is the best way to get started? > Is there a good document, manual or "How-to" that I > can use as a reference? > > I have been reading the documentations available on > Dev2Dev.com and the official Beehive website, but so > far I haven't found anything that could help me get > started. I have some notion of what I need to do but > I > would like to find out if I am going in the right > direction. > > Any word of guidance is more than welcome. > Thanks > Pedro Lopez > Sr. Software Engineer > Scripps Networks. > karawilliams@example.com > > > > _______________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! > http://vote.yahoo.com > _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From beehive-user-returnkarawilliams@example.com Mon Oct 04 15:35:45 2004 Return-Path: <beehive-user-returnkarawilliams@example.com> Delivered-To: karawilliams@example.com Received: (qmail 9691 invoked from network); 4 Oct 2004 15:35:45 -0000 Received: from hermes.apache.org (HELO mail.apache.org) (83.161.120.155) by minotaur-2.apache.org with SMTP; 4 Oct 2004 15:35:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 72104 invoked by uid 500); 4 Oct 2004 15:35:44 -0000 Delivered-To: karawilliams@example.com Received: (qmail 71951 invoked by uid 500); 4 Oct 2004 15:35:42 -0000 Mailing-List: contact karawilliams@example.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Help: <mailto:karawilliams@example.com> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:karawilliams@example.com> List-Post: <mailto:karawilliams@example.com> List-Id: <beehive-user.incubator.apache.org> Reply-To: "Beehive Users" <karawilliams@example.com> Delivered-To: mailing list karawilliams@example.com Received: (qmail 71934 invoked by uid 99); 4 Oct 2004 15:35:42 -0000 X-ASF-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=10.0 tests= X-Spam-Check-By: apache.org Received-SPF: pass (hermes.apache.org: local policy) Received: from [83.161.120.155] (HELO ukhwmh01.bea.com) (83.161.120.155) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.28) with ESMTP; Mon, 04 Oct 2004 08:35:39 -0700 Received: from UKHWEX01.emea.bea.com (ukhwex01.bea.com [83.161.120.155]) by ukhwmh01.bea.com (Switch-3.0.5/Switch-3.0.0) with ESMTP id i94FZaDF027925 for <karawilliams@example.com>; Mon, 4 Oct 2004 16:35:37 +0100 Received: from FRPAEX01.emea.bea.com ([83.161.120.155]) by UKHWEX01.emea.bea.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6747); Mon, 4 Oct 2004 16:35:36 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: How to get started Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 17:35:36 +0200 Message-ID: <karawilliams@example.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: How to get started Thread-Index: AcSqJQi72w5bBcS2S/O+Ueb2Gj3ARgAAZgBw From: "Matteo Gerosa" <karawilliams@example.com> To: "Beehive Users" <karawilliams@example.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Oct 2004 15:35:37.0035 (UTC) FILETIME=[CBA681B0:01C4AA27] X-Virus-Checked: Checked X-Spam-Rating: minotaur-2.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N That's great Pablo, beginning on BEA Workshop was only the very-first most quick starting = way that I-myself were able to start with. Usually I start learning new frameworks on BEA Workshop, as I told you, = because for me is my own territory; what I mean is that it's important = starting from the dev-env which you feel more confortable with, so if = for you this is Eclipse then that is where you should probably start = from. Next time I'll be asking you something about Beehive w/Eclipse, thank = you in advance Pablo ;-)) Good luck, MatteoG From beehive-user-returnkarawilliams@example.com Mon Oct 04 16:48:15 2004 Return-Path: <beehive-user-returnkarawilliams@example.com> Delivered-To: karawilliams@example.com Received: (qmail 50018 invoked from network); 4 Oct 2004 16:48:14 -0000 Received: from hermes.apache.org (HELO mail.apache.org) (83.161.120.155) by minotaur-2.apache.org with SMTP; 4 Oct 2004 16:48:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 34089 invoked by uid 500); 4 Oct 2004 16:48:13 -0000 Delivered-To: karawilliams@example.com Received: (qmail 34032 invoked by uid 500); 4 Oct 2004 16:48:12 -0000 Mailing-List: contact karawilliams@example.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Help: <mailto:karawilliams@example.com> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:karawilliams@example.com> List-Post: <mailto:karawilliams@example.com> List-Id: <beehive-user.incubator.apache.org> Reply-To: "Beehive Users" <karawilliams@example.com> Delivered-To: mailing list karawilliams@example.com Received: (qmail 34019 invoked by uid 99); 4 Oct 2004 16:48:12 -0000 X-ASF-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=10.0 tests= X-Spam-Check-By: apache.org Received-SPF: pass (hermes.apache.org: local policy) Received: from [83.161.120.155] (HELO mail.instantiations.com) (83.161.120.155) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.28) with ESMTP; Mon, 04 Oct 2004 09:48:11 -0700 Received: from LAPTOP.instantiations.com (83.161.120.155) by mail.instantiations.com (Worldmail 1.3.167) for karawilliams@example.com; 4 Oct 2004 10:02:32 -0700 Message-Id: <karawilliams@example.com> X-Sender: karawilliams@example.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 83.161.120.155 Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2004 12:48:08 -0400 To: "Beehive Users" <karawilliams@example.com> From: Dan Rubel <karawilliams@example.com> Subject: RE: How to get started In-Reply-To: <karawilliams@example.com .com> References: <karawilliams@example.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Checked: Checked X-Spam-Rating: minotaur-2.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N At 11:35 AM 10/4/2004, Matteo Gerosa wrote: >Next time I'll be asking you something about Beehive w/Eclipse That would be the open source Eclipse.org "Pollinate" project. http://www.eclipse.org/pollinate/ We're just released our M1 Any feedback (and for that matter coding), is most welcome :-) - Dan From beehive-user-returnkarawilliams@example.com Mon Oct 04 16:52:36 2004 Return-Path: <beehive-user-returnkarawilliams@example.com> Delivered-To: karawilliams@example.com Received: (qmail 52889 invoked from network); 4 Oct 2004 16:52:35 -0000 Received: from hermes.apache.org (HELO mail.apache.org) (83.161.120.155) by minotaur-2.apache.org with SMTP; 4 Oct 2004 16:52:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 44016 invoked by uid 500); 4 Oct 2004 16:52:34 -0000 Delivered-To: karawilliams@example.com Received: (qmail 43944 invoked by uid 500); 4 Oct 2004 16:52:33 -0000 Mailing-List: contact karawilliams@example.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Help: <mailto:karawilliams@example.com> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:karawilliams@example.com> List-Post: <mailto:karawilliams@example.com> List-Id: <beehive-user.incubator.apache.org> Reply-To: "Beehive Users" <karawilliams@example.com> Delivered-To: mailing list karawilliams@example.com Received: (qmail 43925 invoked by uid 99); 4 Oct 2004 16:52:33 -0000 X-ASF-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.2 required=10.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE,FORGED_YAHOO_RCVD X-Spam-Check-By: apache.org Received-SPF: pass (hermes.apache.org: local policy) Received: from [83.161.120.155] (HELO web90005.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (83.161.120.155) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.28) with SMTP; Mon, 04 Oct 2004 09:52:31 -0700 Message-ID: <karawilliams@example.com> Received: from [83.161.120.155] by web90005.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 04 Oct 2004 09:52:29 PDT Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 09:52:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Pedro Lopez <karawilliams@example.com> Subject: RE: How to get started To: Beehive Users <karawilliams@example.com> In-Reply-To: <karawilliams@example.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Checked: Checked X-Spam-Rating: minotaur-2.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N Thanks Dan, downloaded it yesterday and I am in the process of re-configure my dev env. I'll keep you guys posted. Pedro --- Dan Rubel <karawilliams@example.com> wrote: > At 11:35 AM 10/4/2004, Matteo Gerosa wrote: > >Next time I'll be asking you something about > Beehive w/Eclipse > > That would be the open source Eclipse.org > "Pollinate" project. > > http://www.eclipse.org/pollinate/ > > We're just released our M1 > Any feedback (and for that matter coding), is most > welcome :-) > > - Dan > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From beehive-user-returnkarawilliams@example.com Fri Oct 08 19:42:32 2004 Return-Path: <beehive-user-returnkarawilliams@example.com> Delivered-To: karawilliams@example.com Received: (qmail 95389 invoked from network); 8 Oct 2004 19:42:32 -0000 Received: from hermes.apache.org (HELO mail.apache.org) (83.161.120.155) by minotaur-2.apache.org with SMTP; 8 Oct 2004 19:42:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 91869 invoked by uid 500); 8 Oct 2004 19:42:30 -0000 Delivered-To: karawilliams@example.com Received: (qmail 91834 invoked by uid 500); 8 Oct 2004 19:42:29 -0000 Mailing-List: contact karawilliams@example.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Help: <mailto:karawilliams@example.com> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:karawilliams@example.com> List-Post: <mailto:karawilliams@example.com> List-Id: <beehive-user.incubator.apache.org> Reply-To: "Beehive Users" <karawilliams@example.com> Delivered-To: mailing list karawilliams@example.com Received: (qmail 91821 invoked by uid 99); 8 Oct 2004 19:42:29 -0000 X-ASF-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=10.0 tests= X-Spam-Check-By: apache.org Received-SPF: pass (hermes.apache.org: local policy) Received: from [83.161.120.155] (HELO mail.instantiations.com) (83.161.120.155) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.28) with ESMTP; Fri, 08 Oct 2004 12:42:28 -0700 Received: from CARBO.instantiations.com (83.161.120.155) by mail.instantiations.com (Worldmail 1.3.167); 8 Oct 2004 12:57:29 -0700 Message-Id: <karawilliams@example.com> X-Sender: karawilliams@example.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 83.161.120.155 Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 12:42:46 -0700 To: karawilliams@example.com From: Carl McConnell <karawilliams@example.com> Subject: Removing Beehive dependency on APT? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Checked: Checked X-Spam-Rating: minotaur-2.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N Hi all, I'd like to raise an issue we've run into on the Eclipse Pollinate project; namely, the dependence of Beehive on Sun's APT tool for generating the necessary web artifacts. Having APT in the picture has posed some difficulties for Pollinate. Since Sun's license precludes tools.jar from being included in the Pollinate distribution, Pollinate can't be used out of the box without some configuration (pointing it to tools.jar) that's unusual for an Eclipse feature like this. Also, due to the way that APT uses class loaders, Eclipse itself has to be invoked in an unusual way so that tools.jar is included in its class path. I consider the latter an APT bug that I'll take up with the APT developers, but my point is that APT is an uncomfortable fit with the Eclipse world. It would be nice if Beehive could avoid using APT, perhaps by basing its processing on JDT (the Java development technology in Eclipse) a la Tomcat 1.5. Perhaps an APT-workalike could be written based on JDT as yet another open-source project. Or perhaps Beehive could use JDT directly to do its processing, since in my limited understanding Beehive essentially uses APT to parse Java files, examine the annotations on Java elements in those files, and generate other files based on those annotations. I think JDT could be used for this purpose, although I should point out that the JDK 1.5 support in JDT is still under development. I understand that moving away from APT would be a lot of work, and is unlikely to become a high priority for Beehive. I just wanted to get the issue on the table. Thanks. Carl McConnell Eclipse Pollinate Project From beehive-user-returnkarawilliams@example.com Fri Oct 08 20:55:22 2004 Return-Path: <beehive-user-returnkarawilliams@example.com> Delivered-To: karawilliams@example.com Received: (qmail 19484 invoked from network); 8 Oct 2004 20:55:22 -0000 Received: from hermes.apache.org (HELO mail.apache.org) (83.161.120.155) by minotaur-2.apache.org with SMTP; 8 Oct 2004 20:55:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 88299 invoked by uid 500); 8 Oct 2004 20:55:21 -0000 Delivered-To: karawilliams@example.com Received: (qmail 88257 invoked by uid 500); 8 Oct 2004 20:55:20 -0000 Mailing-List: contact karawilliams@example.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Help: <mailto:karawilliams@example.com> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:karawilliams@example.com> List-Post: <mailto:karawilliams@example.com> List-Id: <beehive-user.incubator.apache.org> Reply-To: "Beehive Users" <karawilliams@example.com> Delivered-To: mailing list karawilliams@example.com Received: (qmail 88243 invoked by uid 99); 8 Oct 2004 20:55:20 -0000 X-ASF-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=10.0 tests= X-Spam-Check-By: apache.org Received-SPF: pass (hermes.apache.org: local policy) Received: from [83.161.120.155] (HELO ussjmh01.bea.com) (83.161.120.155) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.28) with ESMTP; Fri, 08 Oct 2004 13:55:18 -0700 Received: from ussjfe01.amer.bea.com (ussjfe01b.bea.com [83.161.120.155]) by ussjmh01.bea.com (Switch-3.0.5/Switch-3.0.0) with ESMTP id i98KtHZL011256 for <karawilliams@example.com>; Fri, 8 Oct 2004 13:55:17 -0700 Received: from USKIEX01.amer.bea.com ([83.161.120.155]) by ussjfe01.amer.bea.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Fri, 8 Oct 2004 13:55:17 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: Removing Beehive dependency on APT? Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 13:55:16 -0700 Message-ID: <karawilliams@example.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Removing Beehive dependency on APT? Thread-Index: AcStbvbehpzz8JYvQ5ym33PsUpGMLwABjMOg From: "Mike Kaufman" <karawilliams@example.com> To: "Beehive Users" <karawilliams@example.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Oct 2004 20:55:17.0324 (UTC) FILETIME=[1DA558C0:01C4AD79] X-Virus-Checked: Checked X-Spam-Rating: minotaur-2.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N Hi Carl,=20 Since a big goal of beehive is to be IDE-agnostic, I am opposed to = having a beehive dependency on JDT. Also, I still think APT is the = right choice for beehive. =20 APT was chosen for a couple of reasons. First, APT is IDE-agnostic. = Second, since APT is shipped with the JDK, we felt it was the most = "standard" option, as well as the option most likely to have developer = adoption in the future. We felt that any IDE that wants to have a = high-fidelity controls experience could do so by implementing the = appropriate APT interfaces. =20 I should also mention that I think it is really important that Pollinate = finds a way to support APT. I think a lot of value in the controls = story is the dev-time experience that can be achieved when custom = control authors write APT annotation processors to do extra processing = (e.g., semantic validation & file generation) when their controls are = used. I hope that all of the IDEs that host controls support APT to = achieve this high-fidelity experience, and I hope that custom controls = take advantage of this feature to make their controls easy to use. =20 Also, can you send me a pointer to the license issue concerning = distribution of tools.jar? Thanks! Mike Kaufman =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Carl McConnell [mailto:karawilliams@example.com] > Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 12:43 PM > To: karawilliams@example.com > Subject: Removing Beehive dependency on APT? >=20 >=20 > Hi all, >=20 > I'd like to raise an issue we've run into on the Eclipse=20 > Pollinate project;=20 > namely, the dependence of Beehive on Sun's APT tool for=20 > generating the=20 > necessary web artifacts. Having APT in the picture has posed some=20 > difficulties for Pollinate. Since Sun's license precludes=20 > tools.jar from=20 > being included in the Pollinate distribution, Pollinate can't=20 > be used out=20 > of the box without some configuration (pointing it to=20 > tools.jar) that's=20 > unusual for an Eclipse feature like this. Also, due to the=20 > way that APT=20 > uses class loaders, Eclipse itself has to be invoked in an=20 > unusual way so=20 > that tools.jar is included in its class path. I consider the=20 > latter an APT=20 > bug that I'll take up with the APT developers, but my point=20 > is that APT is=20 > an uncomfortable fit with the Eclipse world. >=20 > It would be nice if Beehive could avoid using APT, perhaps by=20 > basing its=20 > processing on JDT (the Java development technology in=20 > Eclipse) a la Tomcat=20 > 1.5. Perhaps an APT-workalike could be written based on JDT=20 > as yet another=20 > open-source project. Or perhaps Beehive could use JDT=20 > directly to do its=20 > processing, since in my limited understanding Beehive=20 > essentially uses APT=20 > to parse Java files, examine the annotations on Java elements=20 > in those=20 > files, and generate other files based on those annotations. I=20 > think JDT=20 > could be used for this purpose, although I should point out=20 > that the JDK=20 > 1.5 support in JDT is still under development. >=20 > I understand that moving away from APT would be a lot of work, and is=20 > unlikely to become a high priority for Beehive. I just wanted=20 > to get the=20 > issue on the table. Thanks. >=20 > Carl McConnell > Eclipse Pollinate Project >=20 >=20 >=20 From beehive-user-returnkarawilliams@example.com Fri Oct 08 21:24:21 2004 Return-Path: <beehive-user-returnkarawilliams@example.com> Delivered-To: karawilliams@example.com Received: (qmail 29912 invoked from network); 8 Oct 2004 21:24:21 -0000 Received: from hermes.apache.org (HELO mail.apache.org) (83.161.120.155) by minotaur-2.apache.org with SMTP; 8 Oct 2004 21:24:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 12509 invoked by uid 500); 8 Oct 2004 21:24:18 -0000 Delivered-To: karawilliams@example.com Received: (qmail 12492 invoked by uid 500); 8 Oct 2004 21:24:18 -0000 Mailing-List: contact karawilliams@example.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Help: <mailto:karawilliams@example.com> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:karawilliams@example.com> List-Post: <mailto:karawilliams@example.com> List-Id: <beehive-user.incubator.apache.org> Reply-To: "Beehive Users" <karawilliams@example.com> Delivered-To: mailing list karawilliams@example.com Received: (qmail 12479 invoked by uid 99); 8 Oct 2004 21:24:18 -0000 X-ASF-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=10.0 tests= X-Spam-Check-By: apache.org Received-SPF: pass (hermes.apache.org: local policy) Received: from [83.161.120.155] (HELO ussjmh01.bea.com) (83.161.120.155) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.28) with ESMTP; Fri, 08 Oct 2004 14:24:16 -0700 Received: from ussjfe02.amer.bea.com (ussjfe02b.bea.com [83.161.120.155]) by ussjmh01.bea.com (Switch-3.0.5/Switch-3.0.0) with ESMTP id i98LOEZL013723 for <karawilliams@example.com>; Fri, 8 Oct 2004 14:24:14 -0700 Received: from USKIEX01.amer.bea.com ([83.161.120.155]) by ussjfe02.amer.bea.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Fri, 8 Oct 2004 14:24:14 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: Removing Beehive dependency on APT? Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 14:24:14 -0700 Message-ID: <karawilliams@example.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Removing Beehive dependency on APT? Thread-Index: AcStbvbehpzz8JYvQ5ym33PsUpGMLwABjMOgAAEKN5A= From: "Kyle Marvin" <karawilliams@example.com> To: "Beehive Users" <karawilliams@example.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Oct 2004 21:24:14.0607 (UTC) FILETIME=[2925B1F0:01C4AD7D] X-Virus-Checked: Checked X-Spam-Rating: minotaur-2.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N I look at this with a slightly different perspective: - A key long-term goal of Beehive is to provide a framework that is as = tool-neutral and runtime-environment neutral as possible. This means = that having hard ties to APT, JDT, Workshop, ... (on the tools side), or = Tomcat, Axis, Weblogic Server, ... on the runtime container side are = something to be avoided where possible. - The long-term goal has to be balanced against the short-term goal of = providing useful functionality _now_ against tools and runtime = environments where users can begin to build using Beehive now. Being = generic-to-the-point-of-useless won't show much of a value proposition = to anyway. This is why the project initially uses Tomcat and Axis as = target runtime platforms, and Sun's APT (as the only available JDK 1.5 = tool set) as our current target platform. - Balancing short-term and long-term goals is never easy. The key is to = balance neutrality against well-defined integration points, so things = the maximum amount of (Beehive) code can be leveraged, but it can be = well-integrate in specific tooling or runtime contexts. It's a = balancing act, and we are just getting rolling. It is likely to be = imperfect at times, but we have to be able to solve real-world problems = and run in real-world contexts as soon as we possibly can. Enough = obvious statements. :) It's worth observing that there are several key bits of functionality = offered by APT that are needed for Beehive: - A model for how specific annotations are linked to specific processors = that perform annotation validation. JSR-175 only provides syntactic = validation... but often annotations have semantic meaning in a = particular usage context, and this needs to be validated as well. The = APT model is not a 'language' model, where all annotations in a file are = expected to be understood by a single processor. This enables use cases = like pageflows that contain controls, and allows the pageflow processor = to deal with the pageflow annotations and the control processor to deal = with the control ones. This offers a great deal of richness and = flexibility w/out having to create dependencies between processors where = it is unnecessary. - A model for how annotations and the language entities they decorate = are exposed to the processor. - A model for how annotation errors, warnings, and info can be surfaced = by a processor, whether by command line compilation or in the context of = another tool (like an IDE). - A model for how annotations can also generate new artifacts, both = textual (like descriptors) and types (java source files) that themselves = feed back into annotation processing and compilation. I went to the Eclipse site and couldn't find many details/plans on 175 = language features in JDT, other than the work is "in flight". Are there = timelines for when these capabilities will be available? Are there = proposals for when and how APT-like functionality might be provided in = JDT? =20 Getting more information about JDT plans for 1.5/175 would be a starting = point for evaluating what might be possible in the longer term. As = Mike proposes below, if there are any ways for JDT to offer this support = in an APT-like manner, this certainly will make it easier for folks = developing JSR-175 driven features to build processors that could live = in both worlds. If these features aren't yet fully fleshed out, if they = could be designed in a way that would at least allow bridging to APT, it = would certainly make things easier, not just for Beehive, but to support = other 175-based downstream abstractions as well... because today (and = for the near future, at least), APT is the only game in town that = provides the above functionality. -- Kyle > -----Original Message----- > From: Mike Kaufman=20 > Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 3:55 PM > To: Beehive Users > Subject: RE: Removing Beehive dependency on APT? >=20 >=20 >=20 > Hi Carl,=20 >=20 > Since a big goal of beehive is to be IDE-agnostic, I am=20 > opposed to having a beehive dependency on JDT. Also, I still=20 > think APT is the right choice for beehive. =20 >=20 > APT was chosen for a couple of reasons. First, APT is=20 > IDE-agnostic. Second, since APT is shipped with the JDK, we=20 > felt it was the most "standard" option, as well as the option=20 > most likely to have developer adoption in the future. We=20 > felt that any IDE that wants to have a high-fidelity controls=20 > experience could do so by implementing the appropriate APT=20 > interfaces. =20 >=20 > I should also mention that I think it is really important=20 > that Pollinate finds a way to support APT. I think a lot of=20 > value in the controls story is the dev-time experience that=20 > can be achieved when custom control authors write APT=20 > annotation processors to do extra processing (e.g., semantic=20 > validation & file generation) when their controls are used. =20 > I hope that all of the IDEs that host controls support APT to=20 > achieve this high-fidelity experience, and I hope that custom=20 > controls take advantage of this feature to make their=20 > controls easy to use. =20 >=20 > Also, can you send me a pointer to the license issue=20 > concerning distribution of tools.jar? >=20 > Thanks! >=20 > Mike Kaufman > =20 >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Carl McConnell [mailto:karawilliams@example.com] > > Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 12:43 PM > > To: karawilliams@example.com > > Subject: Removing Beehive dependency on APT? > >=20 > >=20 > > Hi all, > >=20 > > I'd like to raise an issue we've run into on the Eclipse=20 > > Pollinate project;=20 > > namely, the dependence of Beehive on Sun's APT tool for=20 > > generating the=20 > > necessary web artifacts. Having APT in the picture has posed some=20 > > difficulties for Pollinate. Since Sun's license precludes=20 > > tools.jar from=20 > > being included in the Pollinate distribution, Pollinate can't=20 > > be used out=20 > > of the box without some configuration (pointing it to=20 > > tools.jar) that's=20 > > unusual for an Eclipse feature like this. Also, due to the=20 > > way that APT=20 > > uses class loaders, Eclipse itself has to be invoked in an=20 > > unusual way so=20 > > that tools.jar is included in its class path. I consider the=20 > > latter an APT=20 > > bug that I'll take up with the APT developers, but my point=20 > > is that APT is=20 > > an uncomfortable fit with the Eclipse world. > >=20 > > It would be nice if Beehive could avoid using APT, perhaps by=20 > > basing its=20 > > processing on JDT (the Java development technology in=20 > > Eclipse) a la Tomcat=20 > > 1.5. Perhaps an APT-workalike could be written based on JDT=20 > > as yet another=20 > > open-source project. Or perhaps Beehive could use JDT=20 > > directly to do its=20 > > processing, since in my limited understanding Beehive=20 > > essentially uses APT=20 > > to parse Java files, examine the annotations on Java elements=20 > > in those=20 > > files, and generate other files based on those annotations. I=20 > > think JDT=20 > > could be used for this purpose, although I should point out=20 > > that the JDK=20 > > 1.5 support in JDT is still under development. > >=20 > > I understand that moving away from APT would be a lot of=20 > work, and is=20 > > unlikely to become a high priority for Beehive. I just wanted=20 > > to get the=20 > > issue on the table. Thanks. > >=20 > > Carl McConnell > > Eclipse Pollinate Project > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 >=20 From beehive-user-returnkarawilliams@example.com Fri Oct 08 22:07:57 2004 Return-Path: <beehive-user-returnkarawilliams@example.com> Delivered-To: karawilliams@example.com Received: (qmail 46432 invoked from network); 8 Oct 2004 22:07:57 -0000 Received: from hermes.apache.org (HELO mail.apache.org) (83.161.120.155) by minotaur-2.apache.org with SMTP; 8 Oct 2004 22:07:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 58720 invoked by uid 500); 8 Oct 2004 22:07:49 -0000 Delivered-To: karawilliams@example.com Received: (qmail 58665 invoked by uid 500); 8 Oct 2004 22:07:48 -0000 Mailing-List: contact karawilliams@example.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Help: <mailto:karawilliams@example.com> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:karawilliams@example.com> List-Post: <mailto:karawilliams@example.com> List-Id: <beehive-user.incubator.apache.org> Reply-To: "Beehive Users" <karawilliams@example.com> Delivered-To: mailing list karawilliams@example.com Received: (qmail 58639 invoked by uid 99); 8 Oct 2004 22:07:48 -0000 X-ASF-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=10.0 tests= X-Spam-Check-By: apache.org Received-SPF: pass (hermes.apache.org: local policy) Received: from [83.161.120.155] (HELO ussjmh01.bea.com) (83.161.120.155) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.28) with ESMTP; Fri, 08 Oct 2004 15:07:46 -0700 Received: from ussjfe02.amer.bea.com (ussjfe02b.bea.com [83.161.120.155]) by ussjmh01.bea.com (Switch-3.0.5/Switch-3.0.0) with ESMTP id i98M7hZL017125 for <karawilliams@example.com>; Fri, 8 Oct 2004 15:07:43 -0700 Received: from USKIEX01.amer.bea.com ([83.161.120.155]) by ussjfe02.amer.bea.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Fri, 8 Oct 2004 15:07:43 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: Removing Beehive dependency on APT? Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 15:07:42 -0700 Message-ID: <karawilliams@example.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Removing Beehive dependency on APT? Thread-Index: AcStbvbehpzz8JYvQ5ym33PsUpGMLwABjMOgAAEKN5AAAZFFEA== From: "Mike Kaufman" <karawilliams@example.com> To: "Beehive Users" <karawilliams@example.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Oct 2004 22:07:43.0402 (UTC) FILETIME=[3C1C38A0:01C4AD83] X-Virus-Checked: Checked X-Spam-Rating: minotaur-2.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N I agree w/ Kyle, except for the following: > -----Original Message----- > From: Kyle Marvin=20 >=20 > - A key long-term goal of Beehive is to provide a framework=20 > that is as tool-neutral and runtime-environment neutral as=20 > possible. This means that having hard ties to APT, JDT,=20 > Workshop, ... (on the tools side), or Tomcat, Axis, Weblogic=20 > Server, ... on the runtime container side are something to be=20 > avoided where possible. >=20 I don't think of APT as a hard-tie to a tooling interface, and I = definitely don't think it is something we want to move away from. Quite = the opposite actually. I think of APT as the interface that allows us = to not have hard ties to tooling environments. This is because = different tooling environments can implement APT interfaces, and control = authors can write their custom checkers to the APT APIs. The win here = is that control authors don't have to worry about which tooling = environments they run in, and IDE vendors won't have to worry about = which controls will run in their IDEs. Everyone goes home happy. =20 I think it is *really* important to have a single, common API for this = purpose. Otherwise, controls will be fragmented, w/ custom processors = written to run in specfic tooling environments. We definitely don't = want that. :( Mike From beehive-user-returnkarawilliams@example.com Sat Oct 09 10:10:28 2004 Return-Path: <beehive-user-returnkarawilliams@example.com> Delivered-To: karawilliams@example.com Received: (qmail 58244 invoked from network); 9 Oct 2004 10:10:28 -0000 Received: from hermes.apache.org (HELO mail.apache.org) (83.161.120.155) by minotaur-2.apache.org with SMTP; 9 Oct 2004 10:10:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 58499 invoked by uid 500); 9 Oct 2004 10:10:26 -0000 Delivered-To: karawilliams@example.com Received: (qmail 58416 invoked by uid 500); 9 Oct 2004 10:10:25 -0000 Mailing-List: contact karawilliams@example.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Help: <mailto:karawilliams@example.com> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:karawilliams@example.com> List-Post: <mailto:karawilliams@example.com> List-Id: <beehive-user.incubator.apache.org> Reply-To: "Beehive Users" <karawilliams@example.com> Delivered-To: mailing list karawilliams@example.com Received: (qmail 58392 invoked by uid 99); 9 Oct 2004 10:10:24 -0000 X-ASF-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=10.0 tests=RCVD_BY_IP,SPF_HELO_PASS,SPF_PASS X-Spam-Check-By: apache.org Received-SPF: pass (hermes.apache.org: domain of karawilliams@example.com designates 83.161.120.155 as permitted sender) Received: from [83.161.120.155] (HELO mproxy.gmail.com) (83.161.120.155) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.28) with ESMTP; Sat, 09 Oct 2004 03:10:24 -0700 Received: by mproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id w41so22095cwb for <karawilliams@example.com>; Sat, 09 Oct 2004 03:10:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 83.161.120.155 with SMTP id w28mr54117cwb; Sat, 09 Oct 2004 03:10:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 83.161.120.155 with HTTP; Sat, 9 Oct 2004 03:10:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <karawilliams@example.com> Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 12:10:23 +0200 From: Trond Andersen <karawilliams@example.com> Reply-To: Trond Andersen <karawilliams@example.com> To: Beehive Users <karawilliams@example.com> Subject: Re: Removing Beehive dependency on APT? In-Reply-To: <karawilliams@example.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <karawilliams@example.com> X-Virus-Checked: Checked X-Spam-Rating: minotaur-2.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N > I don't think of APT as a hard-tie to a tooling interface, and I > definitely don't think it is something we want to move away from. > Quite the opposite actually. I think of APT as the interface that > allows us to not have hard ties to tooling environments. This is > because different tooling environments can implement APT > interfaces, and control authors can write their custom checkers > to the APT APIs. The win here is that control authors don't have > to worry about which tooling environments they run in, and IDE > vendors won't have to worry about which controls will run in their > IDEs. Everyone goes home happy. One issue with using Sun interfaces is that Beehive probably never will work on a free software platform. I'm thinking of the work that the GNU foundation is doing on <a href="http://www.gnu.org/software/classpath/">GNU Classpath</a>. Personally I'm not __that__ concerned about free software, but this project should definitely consider the license issues like this. ----- Trond From beehive-user-returnkarawilliams@example.com Sat Oct 09 23:34:12 2004 Return-Path: <beehive-user-returnkarawilliams@example.com> Delivered-To: karawilliams@example.com Received: (qmail 67325 invoked from network); 9 Oct 2004 23:34:12 -0000 Received: from hermes.apache.org (HELO mail.apache.org) (83.161.120.155) by minotaur-2.apache.org with SMTP; 9 Oct 2004 23:34:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 83290 invoked by uid 500); 9 Oct 2004 23:34:09 -0000 Delivered-To: karawilliams@example.com Received: (qmail 83211 invoked by uid 500); 9 Oct 2004 23:34:07 -0000 Mailing-List: contact karawilliams@example.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Help: <mailto:karawilliams@example.com> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:karawilliams@example.com> List-Post: <mailto:karawilliams@example.com> List-Id: <beehive-user.incubator.apache.org> Reply-To: "Beehive Users" <karawilliams@example.com> Delivered-To: mailing list karawilliams@example.com Received: (qmail 83186 invoked by uid 99); 9 Oct 2004 23:34:07 -0000 X-ASF-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=10.0 tests= X-Spam-Check-By: apache.org Received-SPF: pass (hermes.apache.org: local policy) Received: from [83.161.120.155] (HELO mail.instantiations.com) (83.161.120.155) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.28) with ESMTP; Sat, 09 Oct 2004 16:34:06 -0700 Received: from CARBO.instantiations.com (83.161.120.155) by mail.instantiations.com (Worldmail 1.3.167); 9 Oct 2004 16:49:01 -0700 Message-Id: <karawilliams@example.com> X-Sender: karawilliams@example.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 83.161.120.155 Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 16:34:24 -0700 To: "Beehive Users" <karawilliams@example.com>, "Beehive Users" <karawilliams@example.com> From: Carl McConnell <karawilliams@example.com> Subject: RE: Removing Beehive dependency on APT? In-Reply-To: <karawilliams@example.com om> References: <karawilliams@example.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Checked: Checked X-Spam-Rating: minotaur-2.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N Kyle and Mike, I now understand how critical APT (or something like it) is to Beehive. I'm going to agitate a bit in the Eclipse community for an APT replacement and see how far I get; there's no reason the Beehive project should worry about providing such a replacement. I've made a few in-line responses below, but as far as I'm concerned there's no need to discuss this APT issue further in this forum now, although at some distant time I may be back to try to get Beehive to use some JDT-based equivalent to APT. :-) Thanks for the detailed responses. Carl At 02:24 PM 10/8/2004, Kyle Marvin wrote: >I look at this with a slightly different perspective: > >- A key long-term goal of Beehive is to provide a framework that is as >tool-neutral and runtime-environment neutral as possible. This means that >having hard ties to APT, JDT, Workshop, ... (on the tools side), or >Tomcat, Axis, Weblogic Server, ... on the runtime container side are >something to be avoided where possible. > >- The long-term goal has to be balanced against the short-term goal of >providing useful functionality _now_ against tools and runtime >environments where users can begin to build using Beehive now. Being >generic-to-the-point-of-useless won't show much of a value proposition to >anyway. This is why the project initially uses Tomcat and Axis as target >runtime platforms, and Sun's APT (as the only available JDK 1.5 tool set) >as our current target platform. > >- Balancing short-term and long-term goals is never easy. The key is to >balance neutrality against well-defined integration points, so things the >maximum amount of (Beehive) code can be leveraged, but it can be >well-integrate in specific tooling or runtime contexts. It's a balancing >act, and we are just getting rolling. It is likely to be imperfect at >times, but we have to be able to solve real-world problems and run in >real-world contexts as soon as we possibly can. Enough obvious >statements. :) I completely agree with the choices made. I just wanted to explore how much of the APT functionality was needed, and the answer is, all of it. >It's worth observing that there are several key bits of functionality >offered by APT that are needed for Beehive: > >- A model for how specific annotations are linked to specific processors >that perform annotation validation. JSR-175 only provides syntactic >validation... but often annotations have semantic meaning in a particular >usage context, and this needs to be validated as well. The APT model is >not a 'language' model, where all annotations in a file are expected to be >understood by a single processor. This enables use cases like pageflows >that contain controls, and allows the pageflow processor to deal with the >pageflow annotations and the control processor to deal with the control >ones. This offers a great deal of richness and flexibility w/out having >to create dependencies between processors where it is unnecessary. > >- A model for how annotations and the language entities they decorate are >exposed to the processor. > >- A model for how annotation errors, warnings, and info can be surfaced by >a processor, whether by command line compilation or in the context of >another tool (like an IDE). > >- A model for how annotations can also generate new artifacts, both >textual (like descriptors) and types (java source files) that themselves >feed back into annotation processing and compilation. > >I went to the Eclipse site and couldn't find many details/plans on 175 >language features in JDT, other than the work is "in flight". Are there >timelines for when these capabilities will be available? Are there >proposals for when and how APT-like functionality might be provided in JDT? JDT will fully support JSR-175 by the release of Eclipse 3.1, which is targeted for 2Q 2005. As far as I know, APT is completely off the radar: there are no proposals at all regarding it beyond the feature request I just submitted - https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=75996. >Getting more information about JDT plans for 1.5/175 would be a starting >point for evaluating what might be possible in the longer term. As Mike >proposes below, if there are any ways for JDT to offer this support in an >APT-like manner, this certainly will make it easier for folks developing >JSR-175 driven features to build processors that could live in both >worlds. If these features aren't yet fully fleshed out, if they could be >designed in a way that would at least allow bridging to APT, it would >certainly make things easier, not just for Beehive, but to support other >175-based downstream abstractions as well... because today (and for the >near future, at least), APT is the only game in town that provides the >above functionality. Right, the ball is in the Eclipse court on this score. >-- Kyle > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Mike Kaufman > > Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 3:55 PM > > To: Beehive Users > > Subject: RE: Removing Beehive dependency on APT? > > > > > > > > Hi Carl, > > > > Since a big goal of beehive is to be IDE-agnostic, I am > > opposed to having a beehive dependency on JDT. Also, I still > > think APT is the right choice for beehive. Sloppy terminology on my part: I was using "JDT" to mean "JDT core" in this context. You're right that the term "JDT" in many contexts is taken to include the Eclipse UI support for Java development, which of course is IDE-specific. However, the JDT core is IDE-agnostic; witness the fact that Tomcat 1.5 permits it to be used in place of javac. You can think of the JDT core as an open source javac, more or less. > > APT was chosen for a couple of reasons. First, APT is > > IDE-agnostic. Second, since APT is shipped with the JDK, we > > felt it was the most "standard" option, as well as the option > > most likely to have developer adoption in the future. We > > felt that any IDE that wants to have a high-fidelity controls > > experience could do so by implementing the appropriate APT > > interfaces. Absolutely, APT is the only game in town right now. > > I should also mention that I think it is really important > > that Pollinate finds a way to support APT. I think a lot of > > value in the controls story is the dev-time experience that > > can be achieved when custom control authors write APT > > annotation processors to do extra processing (e.g., semantic > > validation & file generation) when their controls are used. > > I hope that all of the IDEs that host controls support APT to > > achieve this high-fidelity experience, and I hope that custom > > controls take advantage of this feature to make their > > controls easy to use. Yes, I now understand that the full functionality of APT (or something equivalent) is needed. Since I've only dealt with page flows, I thought perhaps APT was essentially being used as a parser to access annotations, which is something that could conceivably be done with JDT. I didn't know the controls story. > > Also, can you send me a pointer to the license issue > > concerning distribution of tools.jar? You can look at the LICENSE file in the root of the JDK installation. I'm going by what I've been told it means: you can't redistribute anything in the JDK installation, such as tools.jar. (You can redistribute the JRE, however.) > > > > Thanks! > > > > Mike Kaufman > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Carl McConnell [mailto:karawilliams@example.com] > > > Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 12:43 PM > > > To: karawilliams@example.com > > > Subject: Removing Beehive dependency on APT? > > > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > I'd like to raise an issue we've run into on the Eclipse > > > Pollinate project; > > > namely, the dependence of Beehive on Sun's APT tool for > > > generating the > > > necessary web artifacts. Having APT in the picture has posed some > > > difficulties for
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