From julie93@example.com Wed Dec 19 23:21:58 2001 Return-Path: <julie93@example.com> Delivered-To: julie93@example.com Received: (qmail 93622 invoked by uid 500); 19 Dec 2001 23:21:58 -0000 Mailing-List: contact julie93@example.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Post: <mailto:julie93@example.com> List-Help: <mailto:julie93@example.com> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:julie93@example.com> List-Subscribe: <mailto:julie93@example.com> Delivered-To: mailing list julie93@example.com Received: (qmail 93611 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2001 23:21:57 -0000 Message-ID: <julie93@example.com> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 00:18:13 +0100 From: allan <julie93@example.com> Reply-To: julie93@example.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: julie93@example.com Subject: mod_perl_site [design discussion] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N hello all and thomas and carlos and stas this is my first post to this list so i might have missed something :-) regarding the new design for the mod_perl site i have made a rough suggestion. since i dont know how we should aproach this idea of working together all of us i have just thrown this into the ring. it is based on thomas design and carlos topbar with a bit of ASF-colors and a little bit of my own tidbits. the reson for that is entirely because of the majority of comments from the mod_perl_list voters. please note the following. it is only one html page (i havent had the time to try and incorporate it in a build, which would also be a waste of time before everyone can agree on a final design.) it is non-functional. it is currently only tested on a macintosh in ie5+ and netscape 4.7+. stas: some of the html that is produced in the build procedure just isnt valid. can we fix this somehow? ok, the adress is http://www.bullitt.suite.dk/mod_perl_site/var/download/binaries_example.html be seeing you ./allan --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: julie93@example.com For additional commands, e-mail: julie93@example.com From julie93@example.com Thu Dec 20 02:00:49 2001 Return-Path: <julie93@example.com> Delivered-To: julie93@example.com Received: (qmail 59276 invoked by uid 500); 20 Dec 2001 02:00:49 -0000 Mailing-List: contact julie93@example.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Post: <mailto:julie93@example.com> List-Help: <mailto:julie93@example.com> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:julie93@example.com> List-Subscribe: <mailto:julie93@example.com> Delivered-To: mailing list julie93@example.com Received: (qmail 59254 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2001 02:00:48 -0000 Message-ID: <julie93@example.com> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 10:00:49 +0800 From: Stas Bekman <julie93@example.com> Organization: Hope, Humanized User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.6) Gecko/20011012 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: julie93@example.com Cc: julie93@example.com Subject: Re: mod_perl_site [design discussion] References: <julie93@example.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N > this is my first post to this list so i might have missed > something :-) Nope, you didn't miss anything :) > regarding the new design for the mod_perl site i have made a > rough suggestion. > since i dont know how we should aproach this idea of working > together all of us i have just thrown this into the ring. > > > it is based on thomas design and carlos topbar with a bit of > ASF-colors and a little bit of my own tidbits. > the reson for that is entirely because of the majority of > comments from the mod_perl_list voters. Looks good. My "minus" comments :) : * The title should be on the left. The humans are used to read left to right, let's not break the expectations. * The menu is not fixed and may grow, so it's probably the best to keep it as a single column on the left (but trying to keep it as narrow as possible). Also in order to avoid unnecessary scrolling on short pages, it's probably the best to keep the head of the page as short as possible. * The copyright's place is in the tail, there is no added value for users to eyeball it unless you work for ORA :) * The mod_perl box in the upper left corner is a way too big :) I think Thomas' transparent mod_perl box is neat. Should be there, but not to try to be too outstanding. There is not much added value to it once you know you are on the mod_perl site and it distructs from the rest of the content. * The TOP^ link is not obvious that it's link. I think it'd be nice to have it of the same style as [prev - up - next] widget, so it'll be clear what are navigation widgets. * The [prev - up - next] widget is neat but should be centered and appear on the top as well. Before the table of contents I guess. * Finally the font looks quite bad on mozilla/linux. There is not enough vertical spacing and I guess there are better standard fonts, to make it easier to read. I think Thomas' font selection was very good > it is only one html page (i havent had the time to try and > incorporate it in a build, which would also be a waste of > time before everyone can agree on a final design.) which also means that the original Thomas' design problem wasn't solved yet. If the page has a little or no content the content box will shrink and look bad when you browse pages. And it'll move the left part of the page closer to the center. Somehow we must make it fixed, so when you flip between pages, the main parts of the page don't move. I think that this problem can be fixed by making the 'where I'm in the site' widget bar of a fixed size? Or is it a bad idea? > stas: > some of the html that is produced in the build procedure > just isnt valid. can we fix this somehow? sure, but that's unrelated to the core design. We will fix those later. So please disregard this problem for now. _____________________________________________________________________ Stas Bekman JAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide http://perl.apache.org/guide mailto:julie93@example.com http://ticketmaster.com http://apacheweek.com http://singlesheaven.com http://perl.apache.org http://perlmonth.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: julie93@example.com For additional commands, e-mail: julie93@example.com From julie93@example.com Thu Dec 20 09:13:01 2001 Return-Path: <julie93@example.com> Delivered-To: julie93@example.com Received: (qmail 3295 invoked by uid 500); 20 Dec 2001 09:13:00 -0000 Mailing-List: contact julie93@example.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Post: <mailto:julie93@example.com> List-Help: <mailto:julie93@example.com> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:julie93@example.com> List-Subscribe: <mailto:julie93@example.com> Delivered-To: mailing list julie93@example.com Received: (qmail 3283 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2001 09:12:59 -0000 Reply-To: <julie93@example.com> From: "Jonathan M. Hollin" <julie93@example.com> To: <julie93@example.com> Subject: RE: mod_perl_site [design discussion] Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 09:12:59 -0000 Message-ID: <julie93@example.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <julie93@example.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 * The mod_perl box in the upper left corner is a way too big :) I think 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 Thomas' transparent mod_perl box is neat. Should be there, but not to 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 try to be too outstanding. There is not much added value to it once you 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 know you are on the mod_perl site and it distructs from the rest of the 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 content. I agree that the box is too big, but I think it's naive to suggest that there is "not much added value to it once you know you are on the mod_perl site" - if this were a commercial site, then I'd talk about branding and so on. In this case, it's all about identity and reinforcement. I'd wager that it's one of the mst important elements of the site but, of course, it depends on your point of view. 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 * The TOP^ link is not obvious that it's link. I think it'd be nice to 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 have it of the same style as [prev - up - next] widget, so it'll be 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 clear what are navigation widgets. 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 * The [prev - up - next] widget is neat but should be centered and 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 appear on the top as well. Before the table of contents I guess. I strongly agree with both of Stas' points here. From a useability point of view, I'd also recommend that you don't deviate from standard link colours (blue - unvisited, purple - visited) - navigational cues are critical to any sites success. Bruce Tognazzini, Vincent Flanders, David Siegel and the irrepressible Nielson have all lectured widely as to why, so I don't think I need to reiterate here. Also, well done for including a breadcrumb trail. Good show! :-) 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 * Finally the font looks quite bad on mozilla/linux. There is not enough 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 vertical spacing and I guess there are better standard fonts, to make it 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 easier to read. I think Thomas' font selection was very good I've found that <Font Face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica"> seems to be able to render across most browsers/platforms. 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 which also means that the original Thomas' design problem wasn't solved 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 yet. If the page has a little or no content the content box will shrink 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 and look bad when you browse pages. And it'll move the left part of the 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 page closer to the center. Somehow we must make it fixed, so when you 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 flip between pages, the main parts of the page don't move. This isn't a problem. Use HTML's <Table>, use a fixed with for the column, and set the main tables width to 100% (so that it will grab all available space). To prevent the table from "collapsing" when there is minimal content, pad the table out with a series of non-breaking spaces (HTML - &nbsp;). Do NOT use the "invisible pixel" trick to pad the width out, else you will end up with a display that's not totally scalable for different window sizes and/or screen resolutions. See the source of any page on the WYPUG website (http://wypug.pm.org/) for an example. 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 I think that this problem can be fixed by making the 'where I'm in the 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 site' widget bar of a fixed size? Or is it a bad idea? Bad idea - what happens at different resolutions? Horizontal scroll bars at low res and masses of whitespace at high res. Jonathan M. Hollin - WYPUG Co-ordinator West Yorkshire Perl User Group http://wypug.pm.org/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: julie93@example.com For additional commands, e-mail: julie93@example.com From julie93@example.com Thu Dec 20 10:12:07 2001 Return-Path: <julie93@example.com> Delivered-To: julie93@example.com Received: (qmail 36785 invoked by uid 500); 20 Dec 2001 10:12:06 -0000 Mailing-List: contact julie93@example.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Post: <mailto:julie93@example.com> List-Help: <mailto:julie93@example.com> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:julie93@example.com> List-Subscribe: <mailto:julie93@example.com> Delivered-To: mailing list julie93@example.com Received: (qmail 36774 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2001 10:12:06 -0000 Message-ID: <julie93@example.com> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 18:12:08 +0800 From: Stas Bekman <julie93@example.com> Organization: Hope, Humanized User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.6) Gecko/20011012 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: julie93@example.com Cc: julie93@example.com Subject: Re: mod_perl_site [design discussion] References: <julie93@example.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N Jonathan M. Hollin wrote: > 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 * The mod_perl box in the upper left corner is a way too big :) I think > 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 Thomas' transparent mod_perl box is neat. Should be there, but not to > 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 try to be too outstanding. There is not much added value to it once you > 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 know you are on the mod_perl site and it distructs from the rest of the > 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 content. > > I agree that the box is too big, but I think it's naive to suggest that > there is "not much added value to it once you > know you are on the mod_perl site" - if this were a commercial site, then > I'd talk about branding and so on. In this case, it's all about identity > and reinforcement. I'd wager that it's one of the mst important elements of > the site but, of course, it depends on your point of view. you are right, The only argument left is that it's too big :) > 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 which also means that the original Thomas' design problem wasn't solved > 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 yet. If the page has a little or no content the content box will shrink > 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 and look bad when you browse pages. And it'll move the left part of the > 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 page closer to the center. Somehow we must make it fixed, so when you > 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 flip between pages, the main parts of the page don't move. > > This isn't a problem. Use HTML's <Table>, use a fixed with for the column, but how do you know which is the right width? Think of different browsers/platforms/screen sizes/ > and set the main tables width to 100% (so that it will grab all available > space). To prevent the table from "collapsing" when there is minimal > content, pad the table out with a series of non-breaking spaces (HTML - > &nbsp;). Do NOT use the "invisible pixel" trick to pad the width out, else > you will end up with a display that's not totally scalable for different > window sizes and/or screen resolutions. See the source of any page on the > WYPUG website (http://wypug.pm.org/) for an example. The problem is the site is autogenerated, you cannot and shouldn't do manual adjustments like padding with nbsp. The aim is to be able to drop in any document in "any" format and it'll automagically fit into the site. > 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 I think that this problem can be fixed by making the 'where I'm in the > 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 site' widget bar of a fixed size? Or is it a bad idea? > > Bad idea - what happens at different resolutions? Horizontal scroll bars at > low res and masses of whitespace at high res. Well, too bad stylesheets/html don't have a concept of something like width="at least 30%" or something like that, so you could let the pages to autogrow (and add the horizontal scroll bar) when there is a very wide content but keep the minimum width for empty or narrow content pages. _____________________________________________________________________ Stas Bekman JAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide http://perl.apache.org/guide mailto:julie93@example.com http://ticketmaster.com http://apacheweek.com http://singlesheaven.com http://perl.apache.org http://perlmonth.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: julie93@example.com For additional commands, e-mail: julie93@example.com From julie93@example.com Thu Dec 20 11:48:19 2001 Return-Path: <julie93@example.com> Delivered-To: julie93@example.com Received: (qmail 96217 invoked by uid 500); 20 Dec 2001 11:48:19 -0000 Mailing-List: contact julie93@example.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Post: <mailto:julie93@example.com> List-Help: <mailto:julie93@example.com> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:julie93@example.com> List-Subscribe: <mailto:julie93@example.com> Delivered-To: mailing list julie93@example.com Received: (qmail 96206 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2001 11:48:18 -0000 Reply-To: <julie93@example.com> From: "Jonathan M. Hollin" <julie93@example.com> To: "Stas Bekman" <julie93@example.com> Cc: <julie93@example.com> Subject: RE: mod_perl_site [design discussion] Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:48:17 -0000 Message-ID: <julie93@example.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <julie93@example.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N Stas, 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 but how do you know which is the right width? Think of different 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 browsers/platforms/screen sizes/ That's exactly what I was thinking about. :-) 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 The problem is the site is autogenerated, you cannot and shouldn't do 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 manual adjustments like padding with nbsp. The aim is to be able to drop 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 in any document in "any" format and it'll automagically fit into 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 the site. I don't see the problem. My WYPUG site is also 100% dynamic. I developed using IE6 on Windows and thought everything was great. I tested with IE on the Mac - still great (once I'd found a transportable font combination), then I tested with NS6 - and it all fell apart. The non-breaking spaces (inserted automatically by my script) pulled it all together. I haven't yet seen it with Konqueror or NS on *nix, but I have Linux users and haven't had any negative feedback. The spaces are obviously invisible and don't seem to have any detrimental effect whatsoever, regardless of the length of content I publish. To summarise, the non-breaking space solution works. If you find an alternative that has the same effect please let me know as I'd implement it myself on WYPUG 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 > 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 I think that this problem can be fixed by making the 'where 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 I'm in the 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 > 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 site' widget bar of a fixed size? Or is it a bad idea? 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 > 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 > Bad idea - what happens at different resolutions? Horizontal 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 scroll bars at 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 > low res and masses of whitespace at high res. 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 Well, too bad stylesheets/html don't have a concept of something like 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 width="at least 30%" or something like that, so you could let the pages 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 to autogrow (and add the horizontal scroll bar) when there is a very 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 wide content but keep the minimum width for empty or narrow 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 content pages. I agree totally - maybe in the next revision eh. Web-designers are well used to work-around solutions by now. All but very basic CSS is still a non-starter if you want to guarantee cross-browser capability. Kindest regards, Jonathan M. Hollin - WYPUG Co-ordinator West Yorkshire Perl User Group http://wypug.pm.org/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: julie93@example.com For additional commands, e-mail: julie93@example.com From julie93@example.com Thu Dec 20 14:05:56 2001 Return-Path: <julie93@example.com> Delivered-To: julie93@example.com Received: (qmail 1781 invoked by uid 500); 20 Dec 2001 14:05:56 -0000 Mailing-List: contact julie93@example.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Post: <mailto:julie93@example.com> List-Help: <mailto:julie93@example.com> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:julie93@example.com> List-Subscribe: <mailto:julie93@example.com> Delivered-To: mailing list julie93@example.com Received: (qmail 1769 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2001 14:05:55 -0000 Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 15:02:59 +0000 (GMT) From: Thomas Klausner <julie93@example.com> To: <julie93@example.com> Subject: Re: mod_perl_site [design discussion] In-Reply-To: <julie93@example.com> Message-ID: <julie93@example.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N Hi! Just some comments on the stuff posted so far Stas: > * The menu is not fixed and may grow, so it's probably the best to keep > it as a single column on the left (but trying to keep it as narrow as > possible). Also in order to avoid unnecessary scrolling on short pages, > it's probably the best to keep the head of the page as short as possible. I'd also prefer the navbar on the lefthand side. > * The [prev - up - next] widget is neat but should be centered and > appear on the top as well. Before the table of contents I guess. I agree with that. Jonathan: > This isn't a problem. Use HTML's <Table>, use a fixed with for the column, > and set the main tables width to 100% I don't like the idea of using HTML tables to structure a site. Tables are good to present tabular data, but (IMO) shouldn't be used for page layout. I know that a lot of sites are doing this, but this isn't a reason to do it, too (cf Microsoft). >888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 I think that this problem can be fixed by making the 'where I'm in the >888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 site' widget bar of a fixed size? Or is it a bad idea? > Bad idea - what happens at different resolutions? Horizontal scroll bars > at low res and masses of whitespace at high res. I would suggest a fixed width, either in pixels or in percent, or a mixture. In my initial submission I used fixed widths for the left navbar, and a percentual value for the content box. The only problem was when text inside a <pre> tag was bigger then the browser window (but I think that would happen too if you use tables) > All but very basic CSS is still a > non-starter if you want to guarantee cross-browser capability. I don't (want to) work to gurantee cross-browser capability, but standards complienance. If the browsers are not standard compatible, it's the browser manufactureres problem, not mine. You only have to inform the users politly that, if they are seeing crap, it's their browsers fault. BTW, one of the big advantages of CSS is that you can switch them off, and that sites using CSS are usable with non-graphic browser (lynx, etc) Some new comments: I think that the background color of the breadcrumb trail (never knew it was called that, BTW) and the Table of Contents can be done better using CSS. Allan, do you think you could do a "proper" release of your new design, so we can work on that? What about putting the site distribution in CVS somewhere? I have got a CVS running here, I think I could put it there, but maybe Stas wants the src part more accessible to him? Should we split the distro into src and tmpl ? I don't know if I find some time to make a new design suggestion in the next few days (Christmas is coming ...), but I think I'll do something before New Year. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: julie93@example.com For additional commands, e-mail: julie93@example.com From julie93@example.com Thu Dec 20 15:47:39 2001 Return-Path: <julie93@example.com> Delivered-To: julie93@example.com Received: (qmail 86834 invoked by uid 500); 20 Dec 2001 15:47:38 -0000 Mailing-List: contact julie93@example.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Post: <mailto:julie93@example.com> List-Help: <mailto:julie93@example.com> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:julie93@example.com> List-Subscribe: <mailto:julie93@example.com> Delivered-To: mailing list julie93@example.com Received: (qmail 86823 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2001 15:47:37 -0000 Message-ID: <julie93@example.com> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 23:47:36 +0800 From: Stas Bekman <julie93@example.com> Organization: Hope, Humanized User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.6) Gecko/20011012 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Thomas Klausner <julie93@example.com> Cc: julie93@example.com Subject: Re: mod_perl_site [design discussion] References: <julie93@example.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N Thomas Klausner wrote: > Hi! > > Just some comments on the stuff posted so far > > Stas: > >>* The menu is not fixed and may grow, so it's probably the best to keep >>it as a single column on the left (but trying to keep it as narrow as >>possible). Also in order to avoid unnecessary scrolling on short pages, >>it's probably the best to keep the head of the page as short as possible. >> > I'd also prefer the navbar on the lefthand side. > > >>* The [prev - up - next] widget is neat but should be centered and >>appear on the top as well. Before the table of contents I guess. >> > I agree with that. > > Jonathan: > >>This isn't a problem. Use HTML's <Table>, use a fixed with for the column, >>and set the main tables width to 100% >> > I don't like the idea of using HTML tables to structure a site. Tables are > good to present tabular data, but (IMO) shouldn't be used for page layout. > > I know that a lot of sites are doing this, but this isn't a reason to do > it, too (cf Microsoft). > > >>888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 I think that this problem can be fixed by making the 'where I'm in the >>888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 site' widget bar of a fixed size? Or is it a bad idea? >>Bad idea - what happens at different resolutions? Horizontal scroll bars >>at low res and masses of whitespace at high res. >> > I would suggest a fixed width, either in pixels or in percent, or a > mixture. > > In my initial submission I used fixed widths for the left navbar, and a > percentual value for the content box. The only problem was when text > inside a <pre> tag was bigger then the browser window (but I think that > would happen too if you use tables) You miss one problem that I see at least with mozilla (check your original design). When the content part is empty or there is too little to fill the whole width, what happens is the main box's border shrinks. What we want is to have the skeleton fixed, so when you flip through pages, you see the content changed but not the base. Can you reproduce the problem? e.g. see: http://domm.zsi.at/modperl-site-domm/stats/index.html We still have the problem with <pre> which is too wide, but I think what's you've created is pretty good. So we can probably live with this inconvenience. The document writers should be aware of this problem and try to make the code sections under 80 chars width. (You have the same problem when you write a book). Basically I say this is not a designer's problem so we delegate it to the author. But I still don't like the idea of having the main box's fixed width. I like Jonathan's idea of ensuring that there is always enough width to make the box stable. Hmm, may be you always insert print '&nbsp;' x 80; ? but we lose then one line, let's how it works out. > > >>All but very basic CSS is still a >>non-starter if you want to guarantee cross-browser capability. >> > I don't (want to) work to gurantee cross-browser capability, but standards > complienance. If the browsers are not standard compatible, it's the > browser manufactureres problem, not mine. You only have to inform the > users politly that, if they are seeing crap, it's their browsers fault. > > BTW, one of the big advantages of CSS is that you can switch them off, and > that sites using CSS are usable with non-graphic browser (lynx, etc) I agree with Thomas here. > Some new comments: > I think that the background color of the breadcrumb trail (never knew it > was called that, BTW) and the Table of Contents can be done better using > CSS. > > Allan, do you think you could do a "proper" release of your new design, so > we can work on that? > > What about putting the site distribution in CVS somewhere? I have got a > CVS running here, I think I could put it there, but maybe Stas wants the > src part more accessible to him? Should we split the distro into src and > tmpl ? It'll be all in cvs. The problem is that I didn't decide yet how exactly to layout the docs. The problem goes like this: We have 3 repositories. modperl-2.0 modperl-docs modperl-site Now both, modperl-2.0 and modperl-site want to share modperl-docs, since you want to find the pods in the modperl-2.0/docs of the source distribution and you want to be able to use the same docs for the modperl-site repository. And now remember that there will be a transition period where the old site is still there and the new one is not ready for the production. Originally I wanted to kill modperl-site rep completely, but then I realized that modperl-docs shouldn't include the non-docs, so it's going to be like this: modperl-2.0/docs <-- modperl-docs modperl-site/src/docs <-- modperl-docs simply you set the CVSROOT/modules to embed modperl-docs at the desired subdirectory (using -d). Hence if you prefer to store the design temporarely elsewhere it'd be great. I believe that I'll get back to work on the layout and new site next week and so I will start doing the cvs reps changes. But may be it'll take longer. As for the separation of src and tmpl, there is no problem. Leave the src as it is, and just work on the tmpl with whatever is in src. The two things are unrelated (which is great!). Also Allan mentioned that some of the src docs are not standard complient, that's fine, we will fix that later. Once tmpl is more or less satisfying we just grab it and use it. Is that OK? > I don't know if I find some time to make a new design suggestion in the > next few days (Christmas is coming ...), but I think I'll do something > before New Year. Yeah, let's make a nice present for the modperl community for the New Year! :) _____________________________________________________________________ Stas Bekman JAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide http://perl.apache.org/guide mailto:julie93@example.com http://ticketmaster.com http://apacheweek.com http://singlesheaven.com http://perl.apache.org http://perlmonth.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: julie93@example.com For additional commands, e-mail: julie93@example.com From julie93@example.com Thu Dec 20 15:47:55 2001 Return-Path: <julie93@example.com> Delivered-To: julie93@example.com Received: (qmail 86973 invoked by uid 500); 20 Dec 2001 15:47:55 -0000 Mailing-List: contact julie93@example.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Post: <mailto:julie93@example.com> List-Help: <mailto:julie93@example.com> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:julie93@example.com> List-Subscribe: <mailto:julie93@example.com> Delivered-To: mailing list julie93@example.com Received: (qmail 86959 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2001 15:47:54 -0000 Message-ID: <julie93@example.com> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 23:47:50 +0800 From: Stas Bekman <julie93@example.com> Organization: Hope, Humanized User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.6) Gecko/20011012 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: julie93@example.com Cc: julie93@example.com Subject: Re: mod_perl_site [design discussion] References: <julie93@example.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N > 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 The problem is the site is autogenerated, you cannot and shouldn't do > 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 manual adjustments like padding with nbsp. The aim is to be able to drop > 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 in any document in "any" format and it'll automagically fit into > 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 the site. > > I don't see the problem. My WYPUG site is also 100% dynamic. I developed > using IE6 on Windows and thought everything was great. I tested with IE on > the Mac - still great (once I'd found a transportable font combination), > then I tested with NS6 - and it all fell apart. The non-breaking spaces > (inserted automatically by my script) pulled it all together. I haven't yet > seen it with Konqueror or NS on *nix, but I have Linux users and haven't had > any negative feedback. The spaces are obviously invisible and don't seem to > have any detrimental effect whatsoever, regardless of the length of content > I publish. > > To summarise, the non-breaking space solution works. If you find an > alternative that has the same effect please let me know as I'd implement it > myself on WYPUG OK, perhaps you can explain in more details of what do you mean by adding nbsp's. Do you always add them, or only when your script learns that the widest line in the autogenerated content is not long enough? Can you give an algorithm of nbsp's insertion: when, how many. Thanks. -- _____________________________________________________________________ Stas Bekman JAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide http://perl.apache.org/guide mailto:julie93@example.com http://ticketmaster.com http://apacheweek.com http://singlesheaven.com http://perl.apache.org http://perlmonth.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: julie93@example.com For additional commands, e-mail: julie93@example.com From julie93@example.com Thu Dec 20 18:05:20 2001 Return-Path: <julie93@example.com> Delivered-To: julie93@example.com Received: (qmail 94307 invoked by uid 500); 20 Dec 2001 18:05:20 -0000 Mailing-List: contact julie93@example.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Post: <mailto:julie93@example.com> List-Help: <mailto:julie93@example.com> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:julie93@example.com> List-Subscribe: <mailto:julie93@example.com> Delivered-To: mailing list julie93@example.com Received: (qmail 94285 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2001 18:05:20 -0000 Reply-To: <julie93@example.com> From: "Jonathan M. Hollin" <julie93@example.com> To: <julie93@example.com> Subject: RE: mod_perl_site [design discussion] Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 18:05:20 -0000 Message-ID: <julie93@example.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <julie93@example.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N Thomas, 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 I'd also prefer the navbar on the lefthand side. Navigation is critical to the whole site, I'm sure you'll agree. When I design a website I consider the BIG sites (amazon, yahoo, imdb, etc, etc) and learn from them. They have all evolved their useability criteria over the years based on user testing, public feedback and log analysis. We should all take advantage of the experience and knowledge they've paid for. I would suggest that the primary menu occupies an area at the top-left of the screen, the breadcrumb trail be sited as close to the top of the document as possible and an additional panel of links at the bottom of each page. Why? 1) Today, most users expect to see navigation in the upper left of the screen - don't disorientate them. 2) The top of the document is the most natural location for the breadcrumb trail (read any of Neilson's articles about muscle memory and hot edges to appreciate why). 3) Users usually finish reading a page at the bottom, so primary links there are more than just a convenience. I hate to keep on with the shameless plugs but, again, look at http://wypug.pm.org/. Also julie93@example.com, yahoo.com, and so on. 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 I don't like the idea of using HTML tables to structure a site. 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 Tables are 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 good to present tabular data, but (IMO) shouldn't be used for 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 page layout. I still argue that tables offer the most control over positioning. However, I have NOT considered textual browsers such as Lynx. Does Lynx ignore tables? Is Lynx an issue? I've never even seen it in my web logs. 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 I know that a lot of sites are doing this, but this isn't a reason to do 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 it, too (cf Microsoft). This is where I disagree. "A lot of sites are doing this" - for a reason. Learn from their mistakes/research/testing... don't start over. 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 In my initial submission I used fixed widths for the left navbar, and a 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 percentual value for the content box. The only problem was when text 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 inside a <pre> tag was bigger then the browser window (but I think that 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 would happen too if you use tables) As far as I'm aware you will never get around this. "<pre> ... </pre>" tells the browser that the content between the tags is pre-formatted and that the browser should therefore not impose any additional formatting. This is correct behaviour and totally appropriate. 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 BTW, one of the big advantages of CSS is that you can switch 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 them off, and 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 that sites using CSS are usable with non-graphic browser (lynx, etc) Granted. 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 Some new comments: 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 I think that the background color of the breadcrumb trail (never knew it 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 was called that, BTW) and the Table of Contents can be done better using 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 CSS. I agree. I don't oppose using CSS, that's not my argument. I too use CSS for font control, colours, etc. Jonathan M. Hollin - WYPUG Co-ordinator West Yorkshire Perl User Group http://wypug.pm.org/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: julie93@example.com For additional commands, e-mail: julie93@example.com From julie93@example.com Thu Dec 20 18:18:37 2001 Return-Path: <julie93@example.com> Delivered-To: julie93@example.com Received: (qmail 8694 invoked by uid 500); 20 Dec 2001 18:18:37 -0000 Mailing-List: contact julie93@example.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Post: <mailto:julie93@example.com> List-Help: <mailto:julie93@example.com> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:julie93@example.com> List-Subscribe: <mailto:julie93@example.com> Delivered-To: mailing list julie93@example.com Received: (qmail 8683 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2001 18:18:37 -0000 Reply-To: <julie93@example.com> From: "Jonathan M. Hollin" <julie93@example.com> To: <julie93@example.com> Subject: RE: mod_perl_site [design discussion] Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 18:18:38 -0000 Message-ID: <julie93@example.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <julie93@example.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N Stas, 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 OK, perhaps you can explain in more details of what do you mean by 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 adding nbsp's. Do you always add them, or only when your script learns 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 that the widest line in the autogenerated content is not long enough? 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 Can you give an algorithm of nbsp's insertion: when, how many. I presume the site is to be template-based? If so, then you can either script them or just add them to the template. Looking at the WYPUG site I realise that I did the latter (as opposed to scripting the insertion as per my original suggestion), but either way works. So my template contains the following: <!-- Table auto-fill -->&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <!-- end --> Notice the normal space after each "&nbsp;"? This is really important - without this you end up with one big, non-breaking line. Reduce the screen resolution or window width and, you guessed it, horizontal scroll bars. The above looks rather heavy, but the impact on the page is minimal (see ... blah, blah, blah). On high resolution displays (or large window widths) you'll never know they're there. On small windows (or resolutions) you just get a whitespace at the end of the content. It's a kludge I know, but infinitely better than distorted tables. I'll stress again, if anyone knows of an alternative solution (regardless of the outcome of the mod_perl site design) please let me know. Regards, Jonathan M. Hollin - WYPUG Co-ordinator West Yorkshire Perl User Group http://wypug.pm.org/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: julie93@example.com For additional commands, e-mail: julie93@example.com From julie93@example.com Thu Dec 20 18:42:26 2001 Return-Path: <julie93@example.com> Delivered-To: julie93@example.com Received: (qmail 27009 invoked by uid 500); 20 Dec 2001 18:42:26 -0000 Mailing-List: contact julie93@example.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Post: <mailto:julie93@example.com> List-Help: <mailto:julie93@example.com> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:julie93@example.com> List-Subscribe: <mailto:julie93@example.com> Delivered-To: mailing list julie93@example.com Received: (qmail 26993 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2001 18:42:25 -0000 Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 19:41:35 +0100 From: Thomas Eibner <julie93@example.com> To: julie93@example.com Subject: Re: mod_perl_site [design discussion] Message-ID: <julie93@example.com> References: <julie93@example.com> <julie93@example.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <julie93@example.com>; from julie93@example.com on Thu, Dec 20, 2001 at 06:05:20PM -0000 Organisation: Stderr.Net - coming soon with an error near you X-Flamebait: you betcha! X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N On Thu, Dec 20, 2001 at 06:05:20PM -0000, Jonathan M. Hollin wrote: > Thomas, > > 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 I'd also prefer the navbar on the lefthand side. > > Navigation is critical to the whole site, I'm sure you'll agree. When I > design a website I consider the BIG sites (amazon, yahoo, imdb, etc, etc) > and learn from them. They have all evolved their useability criteria over > the years based on user testing, public feedback and log analysis. We > should all take advantage of the experience and knowledge they've paid for. Navigation is indeed critical, more so for sites like Amazon that have a LOT of things they would like for you to be able to see. So I don't think you can compare the two types of sites like that. I too use a navigation bar on the top of the page for most of the projects I've been working on. But it doesn't necessarily mean it's the best choice for the job. > I would suggest that the primary menu occupies an area at the top-left of > the screen, the breadcrumb trail be sited as close to the top of the > document as possible and an additional panel of links at the bottom of each > page. What ever you guys decide on in the end I hope you will come up with something that enhances the documentation and doesn't distract from the actual content. -- Thomas Eibner <http://thomas.eibner.dk/> DnsZone <http://dnszone.org/> mod_pointer <http://stderr.net/mod_pointer> --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: julie93@example.com For additional commands, e-mail: julie93@example.com From julie93@example.com Thu Dec 20 19:00:05 2001 Return-Path: <julie93@example.com> Delivered-To: julie93@example.com Received: (qmail 52540 invoked by uid 500); 20 Dec 2001 19:00:04 -0000 Mailing-List: contact julie93@example.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Post: <mailto:julie93@example.com> List-Help: <mailto:julie93@example.com> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:julie93@example.com> List-Subscribe: <mailto:julie93@example.com> Delivered-To: mailing list julie93@example.com Received: (qmail 52527 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2001 19:00:04 -0000 Message-ID: <julie93@example.com> Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 03:00:00 +0800 From: Stas Bekman <julie93@example.com> Organization: Hope, Humanized User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.6) Gecko/20011012 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: julie93@example.com Subject: Re: mod_perl_site [design discussion] References: <julie93@example.com> <julie93@example.com> <julie93@example.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------070900010907060006010700" X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N --------------070900010907060006010700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thomas Eibner wrote: > On Thu, Dec 20, 2001 at 06:05:20PM -0000, Jonathan M. Hollin wrote: > >>Thomas, >> >>888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 I'd also prefer the navbar on the lefthand side. >> >>Navigation is critical to the whole site, I'm sure you'll agree. When I >>design a website I consider the BIG sites (amazon, yahoo, imdb, etc, etc) >>and learn from them. They have all evolved their useability criteria over >>the years based on user testing, public feedback and log analysis. We >>should all take advantage of the experience and knowledge they've paid for. >> > > Navigation is indeed critical, more so for sites like Amazon that have > a LOT of things they would like for you to be able to see. So I don't > think you can compare the two types of sites like that. I too use a > navigation bar on the top of the page for most of the projects I've been > working on. But it doesn't necessarily mean it's the best choice for the > job. Having the menu on the top, meaning stealing from the valuable top space. Which means that if you have short pages you are doomed to scroll even if the page could fit into one screen. That's probably an important factor, but currently most of the documentation pages are long. Though there will be split version of the docs coming in the future. What I don't like about the menu on the top is that when you add new items, it may become visually unballanced, whereas the menu on the left is always ballanced, since it's a single column. On the other hand, if we have nothing on the left side, we can better fit into a single page without horizontal scrolling. But according to the usability experts, it's hard to read long lines, so having the menu on the left size makes the content narrower and easier to read. Also remember that our menu is relatively big, and if you put two pages side by side (with the menu on the top and on the side) you will probably find out that it's easier to locate the items on the single column menu (left), rather than multicolumn one (top). That's again human's habit, unless you read japanese :) well I realize that I'm just bragging here, I'll leave to you the experts to decide what's the best way to go. On unrelated issue, one of the users who wished to remain anonymous have send me this (attached) for the front page. I love this! What do you think? _____________________________________________________________________ Stas Bekman JAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide http://perl.apache.org/guide mailto:julie93@example.com http://ticketmaster.com http://apacheweek.com http://singlesheaven.com http://perl.apache.org http://perlmonth.com/ --------------070900010907060006010700 Content-Type: image/png; name="modperl.png" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="modperl.png" iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAAqgAAAK8CAMAAAAUIb3jAAADAFBMVEUAAAAIAAAICAAICAgI CBAQCAAQEAgQEBAQEBgQQq0YGBgYGCkhEAAhEAghGBAhGBghISEhISkhITEhKSEhKSkhKTkp EAApGAgpIRgpISEpKSEpKSkpMTEpMUIxGAAxIRAxKSExKTExMTExOTkxOVI5MTk5OTk5QlpC IQBCKRBCMSlCOTlCQkJCQkpCSkJCSmNCc+9KIQBKMRhKOTFKQkJKSkpKSlJKUkpKUmtKWntS KQBSORhSQjFSSkpSUkpSUlJSUlpSWlJSWlpSY4RaUlJaWlpaY2taa1paa2Naa4xjMQBjQiFj SjljWlJjY2Nja3Njc2tjc5xrMQBrQiFrWkJrWlprY2Nra2tre3Nre6VzOQBzSiFzY0pzY2tz 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<mailto:julie93@example.com> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:julie93@example.com> List-Subscribe: <mailto:julie93@example.com> Delivered-To: mailing list julie93@example.com Received: (qmail 59313 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2001 19:09:13 -0000 Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 20:08:23 +0100 From: Thomas Eibner <julie93@example.com> To: julie93@example.com Subject: Re: mod_perl_site [design discussion] Message-ID: <julie93@example.com> References: <julie93@example.com> <julie93@example.com> <julie93@example.com> <julie93@example.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <julie93@example.com>; from julie93@example.com on Fri, Dec 21, 2001 at 03:00:00AM +0800 Organisation: Stderr.Net - coming soon with an error near you X-Flamebait: you betcha! X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N On Fri, Dec 21, 2001 at 03:00:00AM +0800, Stas Bekman wrote: > On unrelated issue, one of the users who wished to remain anonymous have > send me this (attached) for the front page. I love this! What do you think? I like the idea in the picture. It just makes it hard to follow up on the pages underneath it without following the colors of it. -- Thomas Eibner <http://thomas.eibner.dk/> DnsZone <http://dnszone.org/> mod_pointer <http://stderr.net/mod_pointer> --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: julie93@example.com For additional commands, e-mail: julie93@example.com From julie93@example.com Thu Dec 20 19:24:25 2001 Return-Path: <julie93@example.com> Delivered-To: julie93@example.com Received: (qmail 70653 invoked by uid 500); 20 Dec 2001 19:24:25 -0000 Mailing-List: contact julie93@example.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Post: <mailto:julie93@example.com> List-Help: <mailto:julie93@example.com> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:julie93@example.com> List-Subscribe: <mailto:julie93@example.com> Delivered-To: mailing list julie93@example.com Received: (qmail 70639 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2001 19:24:24 -0000 Message-ID: <julie93@example.com> Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 03:24:21 +0800 From: Stas Bekman <julie93@example.com> Organization: Hope, Humanized User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.6) Gecko/20011012 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Thomas Eibner <julie93@example.com> Cc: julie93@example.com Subject: Re: mod_perl_site [design discussion] front page References: <julie93@example.com> <julie93@example.com> <julie93@example.com> <julie93@example.com> <julie93@example.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N [adjusting subject] Thomas Eibner wrote: > On Fri, Dec 21, 2001 at 03:00:00AM +0800, Stas Bekman wrote: > >>On unrelated issue, one of the users who wished to remain anonymous have >>send me this (attached) for the front page. I love this! What do you think? >> > > I like the idea in the picture. It just makes it hard to follow up on the > pages underneath it without following the colors of it. Sorry, I didn't get what you mean. _____________________________________________________________________ Stas Bekman JAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide http://perl.apache.org/guide mailto:julie93@example.com http://ticketmaster.com http://apacheweek.com http://singlesheaven.com http://perl.apache.org http://perlmonth.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: julie93@example.com For additional commands, e-mail: julie93@example.com From julie93@example.com Thu Dec 20 19:28:24 2001 Return-Path: <julie93@example.com> Delivered-To: julie93@example.com Received: (qmail 72330 invoked by uid 500); 20 Dec 2001 19:28:24 -0000 Mailing-List: contact julie93@example.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Post: <mailto:julie93@example.com> List-Help: <mailto:julie93@example.com> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:julie93@example.com> List-Subscribe: <mailto:julie93@example.com> Delivered-To: mailing list julie93@example.com Received: (qmail 72319 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2001 19:28:24 -0000 Message-ID: <julie93@example.com> Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 03:28:18 +0800 From: Stas Bekman <julie93@example.com> Organization: Hope, Humanized User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.6) Gecko/20011012 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: julie93@example.com Cc: julie93@example.com Subject: Re: mod_perl_site [design discussion] References: <julie93@example.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N Jonathan M. Hollin wrote: > Stas, > > 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 OK, perhaps you can explain in more details of what do you mean by > 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 adding nbsp's. Do you always add them, or only when your script learns > 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 that the widest line in the autogenerated content is not long enough? > 888a:dbb7:2d49:b3f6:8605:bf4e:caed:e5a4 Can you give an algorithm of nbsp's insertion: when, how many. > > I presume the site is to be template-based? If so, then you can either > script them or just add them to the template. Looking at the WYPUG site I > realise that I did the latter (as opposed to scripting the insertion as per > my original suggestion), but either way works. > > So my template contains the following: > > <!-- Table auto-fill -->&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; > &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; > &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; > &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; > &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; > &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; > &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; > &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; > &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; > &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; > &nbsp;
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