#ubuntu-freshers 2006-12-01 <effie_jayx> hey atoponce :D <effie_jayx> QUESTION: is it tomorrow yet??? <tovella> QUESTION: what is meant by "Freshers"? <effie_jayx> ;D can hold my excitement lol <effie_jayx> new people <tovella> thx <effie_jayx> tovella, are you new to ubuntu? <tovella> no, but still learning more all the time. <effie_jayx> cool <effie_jayx> you coming tomorrow <effie_jayx> ? <tovella> effie_jayx: i don't think so, i have to go to a funeral. <effie_jayx> my deepest condolences... <punknroll> hi there <MarkoKaa> hello <punknroll> anyone here ever tried runnign adobe cs2 on ubuntu? <MarkoKaa> I tried once and I didn't get it work <punknroll> hmmm...that is what keeps me from switching totally to kubuntu...i simply need stuff like flash etc... <MarkoKaa> I understand, and I have kind same thing but my prob is games :) <punknroll> ahh...i see <punknroll> ;_) <punknroll> maybe i will give virtualization another try when i get my new pc because you need a real fast machine for this <MarkoKaa> :D Have you tried Gimp? <punknroll> yes, it is really not bad...but photoshop is the standard tool and i habe to use it for my job, but that wouldn't be the problem...i need flash <MarkoKaa> k :) <punknroll> and i bought the whole cs2 package this year...****ing expensive;-) <punknroll> a few weeks ago i had the chance to talk to a salesman of adobe...he just laughed at me when i asked him if they would consider making a linux version of cs2;-) <MarkoKaa> yep I know that, and I understand that you want that the hole package works perfectly <MarkoKaa> :D <punknroll> he said people who use linux would never spend money on software ;-)( <punknroll> i would... <MarkoKaa> :) yep I would too <punknroll> where are you from? <MarkoKaa> I'm from Finland, you? <punknroll> austria <MarkoKaa> :) <punknroll> well then i have to live with my windows machine....and even upgrade to vista when they released their second service pack ;-) <MarkoKaa> :) yup, I'm kind sad that I can't use Linux all the time <punknroll> i would like my job a lot better without windows ;-) <MarkoKaa> :) yup me too, I'm workin in helpdesk for now and my last job was quite nice, then we had Fedoras in our computers :) <punknroll> ahh..cool <punknroll> i am a webdeveloper <punknroll> and mulitmedia producer <MarkoKaa> :) <MarkoKaa> and sadly I have to go to the army :( <punknroll> so i simply have to hate windows because the lousy IE brings a lot of extra work <MarkoKaa> :) <punknroll> army? oh boy!!! <MarkoKaa> yup in Finland all men which are over 18 years old must go to the army, min 6months <punknroll> here in austria too but you can choose civilian service alternatively <MarkoKaa> we have the civilian service too <punknroll> tha's what i did <MarkoKaa> :) <pitti> hello <MarkoKaa> hello <punknroll> but you have to go for 12 month instead of 8 month army <MarkoKaa> yup <dholbach> hey pitti <dholbach> hey jono <MarkoKaa> We have to be in army "only" 6months * dholbach hugs everybody <punknroll> hi <MarkoKaa> hey * pitti hugs the channel - happy fresher's day! <MarkoKaa> Happy FRIDAY :)' <punknroll> yeah only 6 month of wasting your time ;-) <MarkoKaa> yup <tonyyarusso> jono: So, what's your vision for how today will run? <punknroll> so if you are from finland you gotta be a friend of evil death metal?;-) <MarkoKaa> :) I'm exception, I don't really like death metal <punknroll> lol <punknroll> well that's nearly everything i know about people from finland...death metal folks and drinking like hell ;-) <MarkoKaa> :) <punknroll> just kidding... <MarkoKaa> hmm, perhaps I should to some workin here too :) <MarkoKaa> not just chat with you guys :) <MarkoKaa> fortunately it's friday and it's quiet day usually <punknroll> thank god it's friday <MarkoKaa> yup <punknroll> ...i should also do some work...i have my own company so if i don't do the job ...nobody does;-) <MarkoKaa> :) <MarkoKaa> what's your companys name? <punknroll> [amp] <punknroll> adelsberger media productions <MarkoKaa> :) <punknroll> we amplify your business ;-) <MarkoKaa> http://www.a-m-p.at | cool pages <MarkoKaa> I will go and drink cup of coffee :) --> <punknroll> thanx <punknroll> i already had 3 cups....enough for this morning * mode/#Ubuntu-freshers [+o jono] by ChanServ * ..[topic/#Ubuntu-freshers:jono] : Today is Ubuntu Freshers Day! Ask anything you like about being part of the community and we will try to help! <tonyyarusso> jono: fwiw, I think a lot of people (members and our guests alike) are confused about today <jono> tonyyarusso, in what way? * mode/#Ubuntu-freshers [+o tonyyarusso] by jono <tonyyarusso> jono: Whether there is any structure, who will be responding to the questions (just anyone, or do we have certain folks lined up?), why it's in a different channel, for instance. <jono> right, its just an open forum essentially <jono> I will write up a wiki page to outline the situation now <tonyyarusso> Wonderful <jono> maybe with some contacts in here about certain issues <tonyyarusso> Meanwhile, it's 03:30 my time, so I'm going to try to get some sleep if that's quite all right ;) <MarkoKaa> :) <orphean> no sleep! <tonyyarusso> jono: Oh, but before I go, I see you've attached this @ to my name - which brings me to another question. Were you planning on fleshing out the access list, or just handing ops to people as you see them? <jono> tonyyarusso, yeah, how can I give ops to ubuntu members? <tonyyarusso> jono: Well...the naliot*-style answer is /msg chanserv help ;) <jono> heh <jono> whats the tonyyarusso answer? ;) <tonyyarusso> jono: /msg chanserv ACCESS <channel> ADD <mask> <level> <tonyyarusso> And just add lines for members and/or other entries from -classroom as you see fit. <tonyyarusso> (For instance, you'll note I for one still lack the cloak of +10 awesomeness) <jono> ok I will look into it <jono> thanks tonyyarusso :) <tonyyarusso> np <mnepton> anyone have a breath mint? * mode/#Ubuntu-freshers [-o tonyyarusso] by tonyyarusso <tonyyarusso> (What good would it do while I'm sleeping?) * MarkoKaa gives mnepton a breath mint <MarkoKaa> :) <jono> FOR UBUNTU HELPERS - see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/UbuntuFreshersDay and add your nick and what your expertise is for helping new community members * mnepton places a pinkie at the corner of his mouth <mnepton> you're gibing me the opportunity to define my own areas of expertise? <mnepton> *giving * mnepton points to a pile of pennies. <jono> hehe <MarkoKaa> :) * pitti taps foot and waits for mnepton's wiki lock <poningru> jono: simple title change suggestion s/anything you like/anything you like (in accordance to the CoC)/ ;) <jono> poningru, you mean the topic? <poningru> err yeah <poningru> I was half joking <jono> any idea how I remove the topic lock, then we can all poke with it :) <mnepton> /mode #ubuntu-freshers -t * mode/#Ubuntu-freshers [-t] by jono * mode/#Ubuntu-freshers [+t] by ChanServ <mnepton> modelock is on * ..[topic/#Ubuntu-freshers:jono] : Today is Ubuntu Freshers Day! Ask anything you like about being part of the community and we will try to help! | See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/UbuntuFreshersDay for who can help with specific questions - if you are an expert, add yourself! * dholbach hugs mnepton <dholbach> being fabulous! :-) <mnepton> /m chanserv set #ubuntu-freshers mlock -t * mnepton bounces <poningru> I have a question <poningru> how can I get in touch with newz2000 <jono> poningru, just ping him <poningru> jono: I was never able to get in touch with him for the last 2 months whenever I tried for whatever reason <poningru> thanks <MatthewV> so how did the 'lessons' in #ubuntu-classroom go? were they well attended? <poningru> very <jono> MatthewV, very well :) <jono> MatthewV, its been an awesome week :) <kjalil> morning all :) <jono> hey kjalil <silwol> ...and all of those that I attended were really informative <ImInAfrica> hi <pitti> jono: indeed, it was a great idea, and great response from the world * pitti hugs jono <MatthewV> jono, thats great :) unfortunately all the lessons were in the middle of the night for me (UTC+8) so I had to miss some I really wanted to attend <ImInAfrica> first timer here *blush* <jono> pitti, :) <mnepton> ImInAfrica: help yourself to the peanuts and gin <jono> MatthewV, thats a shame <jono> the week will be repeated :) <jono> ImInAfrica, hey! welcome! :) <MarkoKaa> jono: when? <MarkoKaa> :) <mnepton> MarkoKaa: UTC+12 :P <jono> MarkoKaa, not sure yet :) <MatthewV> mnepton, NZ? <MarkoKaa> :) <ImInAfrica> mnepton/jono: thankz <kjalil> jono: yeah, me too, I had to miss most of it because of work <Casanova> can anyone help me with xen here? <MarkoKaa> I've been watching since wednesday and I've enjoyed every bit of it :) <jono> I wish the world was smaller and more predictable sometimes :P <MatthewV> would it *maybe* have been a possibility to run two of each lesson, offset by 10-14 hours? or would that be too hard on those running the lessons? <mnepton> Casanova: you might want to /join #ubuntu or /join #xen <Casanova> mnepton: ok <mnepton> Casanova: this is not really a support channel. and things may be tough right now as much of europe and north america is asleep. <kjalil> jono: if the lessons were in the evenings or if the more interesting ones (subjective) were later on I could have made more of them <Casanova> :) <ImInAfrica> i have an interesting question for the "not so newbies" <MatthewV> kjalil, the 'evenings' is purely subjective too <Casanova> mnepton: its just that i never get replies on the #ubuntu channel :( <MatthewV> to timezones <kjalil> MatthewV: lol, yea <kjalil> yeah <mnepton> Casanova: #xen may be a better choice? is this on Edgy? <Casanova> mnepton: yes on edgy <MatthewV> ImInAfrica, fire away :) <ImInAfrica> my boss wants me to find a *nix based solution which we can install at the office. this should have firewall,vpn,mail,etc... am i asking in the right place? <MatthewV> ImInAfrica, you're asking a biased channel, everyone'll say ubuntu! :) <mnepton> Casanova: be sure to read this - https://help.ubuntu.com/community/XenVirtualMachine/XenOnUbuntuEdgy <MarkoKaa> :) * Casanova checking... <poningru> MatthewV: I would say gentoo * poningru ducks <MatthewV> poningru, ok, almost everyone ;) to be honest i'm planning to try out gentoo one of these days too ;) <MatthewV> but i've been saying that since i knew what gentoo was <ImInAfrica> MatthewV: yes, that's why i'm here, but i have no idea how to do it <poningru> ImInAfrica: this really isnt the channel for it <mnepton> ImInAfrica: have you gotten yourself some CDs yet? <poningru> you should try ##linux <kjalil> the things that annoy me the most about ubuntu right now are wireless and external display support. is there an easy way to contribute to these or do I have to be an expert C coder? <MatthewV> ImInAfrica, maybe the folks in #ubuntu-server could help? <ImInAfrica> ok thanks. will try there <silwol> are some of the experts here employed at canonical? I would be interested about how this works... <pitti> silwol: some are, yes <MatthewV> silwol, jono should be able to help you there ;) <mnepton> silwol: how what works? being employed? you show up, do some stuff, and then you get a paycheck. ;) <jono> heh <jono> mnepton is begrudgingly employed :P <MatthewV> silwol, basically canonical has some fulltime employees who work on ubuntu and other canonical projects <MatthewV> or am i wrong? <orphean> is this just a free-for-all or is there someone I should ask specifically to... ask. :) * poningru is fulltime volunteer <silwol> do you "go to work" every day? is there some kind of headquarter where you attend every day? <MatthewV> orphean, just ask :) * mnepton is employed solely to keep him off the streets, doing damage to good projects <Casanova> mnepton: the problem i face is that I am not able to ping any machine even from dom0.. not just the VMs <MatthewV> silwol, well, canonical has employees all over the world, so you mainly work over the 'net i s'pose <ImInAfrica> thx guys. cheers <silwol> yeah, that's what i wanted to know. <poningru> kjalil: hmm... upstream probably would be better people to ask <silwol> so many employees of canonical do their work at home? <poningru> silwol: how it should be <mnepton> Casanova: yeah, you want #xen * mnepton works in an actual office every day <mnepton> but most people do not. <poningru> telecommuting ftw <Casanova> mnepton: I have pinged there and waiting :-) thanks anyway <mnepton> Casanova: bon chance! <pitti> silwol: yes, we meet four times a year, and otherwise use IRC/email/telephone/hugging <kjalil> poningru: well i'm asking since this is freshers and I basically know *nothing* about how ubuntu works in the background. i don't know what upstream is * mnepton jumps up and down on pitti <poningru> kjalil: right sorry <silwol> wow, i am really astonished that this works that well * pitti hugs mnepton ecstatically <poningru> kjalil: upstream is basically any project ubuntu draws 'stuff' from <poningru> kjalil: for example we get our kernel from the linux kernel people <mnepton> silwol: if you ever met me in person you would run screaming in panic to buy a Mac >:) <poningru> our desktop from gnome <poningru> our browser from mozilla <poningru> etc. <poningru> so all these are upstream <poningru> one set of upstream is driver developers <MarkoKaa> guys what is good scp program to Ubuntu, in Windows I use Winscp <kjalil> poningru: ok, i'm with you so far. so this is a group of people who get stuff from somewhere else and this group is called 'upstream'? <poningru> ... <silwol> mnepton: i don't think so. i still hope about every person i meet that they have good personal qualities ;) <pitti> MarkoKaa: 'scp' :) <MarkoKaa> :) <pitti> MarkoKaa: but if you want something graphical, why not just use Nautilus? <pitti> MarkoKaa: Places -> Network-Server <mnepton> silwol: if you imagine Ubuntu being somewhat like a car. the badge says "Ford," but without "Mrs. Frumpitty's Auto Glass Fabrication" there would be no windows. and if you have a problem with window quality, eventually Ford contacts Mrs. Frumpitty. <poningru> kjalil: its not a group perse... we just take their stuff since they release it under a certain license (GPL) <MarkoKaa> pitti: thanks ;) <poningru> kjalil: like they dont have a group meeting or anything <MatthewV> mnepton, nice metaphor :) <poningru> they are all independent of each other <pitti> MarkoKaa: even a shell junkie like me uses it sometimes, it's pretty convenient for browsing <MarkoKaa> yup <mnepton> silwol: it's kinda the same with Ubuntu and GNOME/KDE/Mozilla, except in this case you can easily contact GNOME/KDE/Mozilla yourself. when they make changes, those filter down into Ubuntu. <MarkoKaa> I'm concerned, I'm in windows and I opened cmd ant typed nano style.css.... <MarkoKaa> :) <silwol> yeah, mnepton. thanks for the infos so far. <poningru> rofl <kjalil> poningru: ok, wait. they are independent of ubuntu and canonical? <mnepton> MarkoKaa: got Cygwin? ;) <MatthewV> MarkoKaa, try 'sudo apt-get install nano' that should fix it :P <poningru> kjalil: yes <mnepton> kjalil: exactly <MarkoKaa> :) <pitti> MarkoKaa: yeah, after a while, this windows shell really sucks, doesn't it? :) * silwol has another question... about packaging and software development <MarkoKaa> yup <pitti> silwol: just ask, don't ask to ask <mnepton> kjalil: Red Hat, SuSE, Gentoo, OpenBSD, and tons of others also use GNOME and/or KDE as their desktop environments. <poningru> kjalil: for example 99% of the software we ship is not created by ubuntu <MatthewV> MarkoKaa, pitti win98 shell is much much worse.. no tab completion or command history <kjalil> poningru: ok so where is their website and info about what they are currently working on? <MarkoKaa> ;D <poningru> kjalil: each package should have its own contact info <kjalil> poningru: ah, you're simply talking about other linux projects that ubuntu integrates <MarkoKaa> mnepton nope I don't have cygwin :) <MatthewV> kjalil, for example, gnome is at http://www.gnome.org/ <kjalil> poningru: by calling it upstream you confused me completely <silwol> if i write a piece of python software, say something with a gtk frontend, does it make sense to keep a debian/ subdir in my dev tree to provide basic packaging abilities? <poningru> kjalil: no for example firefox... that has nothing to do with any linux people <MatthewV> kjalil, think of it as a stream, stuff upstream ends up downstream ;) <kjalil> poningru: it was as if upstream was something special specific to ubuntu <poningru> kjalil: nope not specific to ubuntu at all <mnepton> giving Windows a shell is like giving your grandmother a breast enlargement. it's not gonna make her more sexy, and no *way* i'll lauren32@example.com. <pitti> silwol: there might be different opinions, but as a Debian/Ubuntu packager I generally dislike upstream tarballs containing debian/ <poningru> they just have their software/driver/app/whatever availble to everyone under a certain license (mostly GPL) <kjalil> poningru: ok so these projects are outside ubuntu scope anyway and have their own release times, etc <poningru> and everyone can use that <poningru> kjalil: yep <pitti> silwol: mainly because they break the clean separation of upstream bits in the orig.tar.gz and packaging bits in the diff.gz, so reading diff.gz, upgrading to new upstream versions etc. is painful and produces conflicts <pitti> silwol: also, it won't be useful for RPM-based distros <poningru> kjalil: like linux kernel just came out with 2.6.19 and we are not going to incorporate that into a release at all <pitti> ^ well, feisty currently has 2.6.19 <poningru> we are gonna use their next one 2.6.20 in our next release (feisty fawn) <kjalil> poningru: ok, so going back to the original question, if I want to improve wireless support, i have to talk to the NetworkManager or ipw devs for example? <silwol> and if i want to release the package for a small target group (in this particular example some of my collegues), how do i usually keep the packaging information? <pitti> but it'll get .20 eventually <silwol> or better: where <poningru> kjalil: precisely <pitti> silwol: 3 possibilities <pitti> silwol: if it's really just useful for your colleagues and it doesn't make sense to officially put into distros, just keep it all in one place <poningru> kjalil: so it depends on which driver you wanna work at <pitti> silwol: (2) maintain the upstream bits in revision control, do releases, and separately maintain a source package <kjalil> poningru: this isn't very useful, for example sometimes when I resume my laptop from standy it doesn't automatically connect to wireless, so who do I talk to about that? NetworkManager, GNOME, or ipw? or kernel devs? <poningru> kjalil: the best thing you can actually do for that kinda stuff is call up the company and annoy them to release information <mnepton> silwol: personally, i think the most important piece for wifi right now is adding (n)curses WPA/WPA2 config tools for wpa_supplicant. this would allow WPA/WPA2 configuration from a CLI, and at install time. <poningru> kjalil: actually that would be ubuntu's domain of control <pitti> silwol: (3) create an ubuntu branch of your main dev branch which adds the packaging information; then you regularly merge from the upstream branch <poningru> kjalil: file a bug on that in bugs.ubuntu.com <orphean> If you're really into the Gnome project and trying to get more involved, use Ubuntu, and would like to help Ubuntu out with something like Gnome is it possible to help in any capacity directly related to the project in mind? Or does one rather have to go through MOTU first and then get moved in since that's a core element of ubuntu? <pitti> silwol: (3) is admittedly the most elegant solution, but might be a bit overkill for you <kjalil> poningru: ok, this happens in ubuntu only, and I would like to see it fixed. <kjalil> poningru: ah, ok <silwol> pitti: it's all about practice ;) <poningru> kjalil: yeah and keep track of that bug... as in devs will ask you question or ask you to run a certain scenario with your laptop etc. <pitti> silwol: I'd recommend (3), since bzr makes this all really easy, and it is a good idea to get used to it because it scales really well <poningru> and it would be good if you can answer them back <kjalil> poningru: also, external display support is horrid and the ATI driver crashes my window manager sometimes. for all these I should file a bug? <mnepton> orphean: if GNOME is your interest then you should get involved with the GNOME Project, not Ubuntu. the stuff you do there will trickle down. <poningru> kjalil: hmm yeah but for those I doubt filing a bug would do you any good <silwol> pitti: where do i find information about how to create a package in a clean way? <kjalil> poningru: they are not easily reproducible though. <pitti> silwol: 'in a clean way'? <poningru> kjalil: your best bet would be to annoy the companies themselves about releasing information regarding their hardware <pitti> silwol: you mean how to create a source package based on a piece of upstream software? <orphean> mnepton, ok, i'm already involved with Gnome just wanted to see if there was any option to help on the ubuntu side since its the distro I use. thanks for the heads up. <silwol> yes, that's what i mean <kjalil> poningru: yeah how do I find out if someone is doing something about them for example is anyone going to make it easy to plug external devices into my laptop? is someone working on it? can I help them somehow? <poningru> like call up ati and tell them to give out information about their gpus <poningru> kjalil: for that kinda stuff you have to seek out the project <poningru> google is your friend <kjalil> poningru: Xorg in that case? <poningru> hmm actually not sure about that <mnepton> orphean: Ubuntu tries hard not to delta too much from upstream. the GNOME changes we do are usually "trivial" (for certain definitions of "trivial") <poningru> guys who would you help with ati drivers? <pitti> silwol: there are various tutorials, but http://www.debian.org/doc/maint-guide/ is still the standard reference <poningru> kjalil: see xorg would be a good starting point I guess... but different projects work on drivers <poningru> like nvidia drivers are being done by a group called noveaue or something like that <poningru> someone wanna correct that name ^^^ <pitti> silwol: also take a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingTips <silwol> pitti: okay, i'll try the maintainer (once again...), but up to now there was always a point where i got stuck... may i ping you if i need some help? <pitti> silwol: sure <silwol> okay, great thanks so far, pitti <pitti> silwol: *hug* :) <poningru> kjalil: see http://support.ati.com/ics/survey/survey.asp?deptID=894&surveyID=508&type=web <poningru> how to annoy ati <kjalil> poningru: this is frustrating <silwol> oh, pitti, what i forgot: if i have the project on launchpad (and I have, since kiko's classroom session yesterday ;) ), do i also keep the branch with packaging information on launchpad? simply in a separate bzr branch? <kjalil> poningru: the only things I can think of that keep me from using linux more are good video support and wireless support. but I don't see a way to change that <poningru> kjalil: what kinda wifi card do you have? <jono> hey Seveas <pitti> silwol: right, that's what I meant; call your upstream branch 'main' or so, and call the packaging branch 'ubuntu' <silwol> okay, thanks a lot. * silwol takes a shower <pitti> silwol: please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BzrMaintainerHowto for that <kjalil> poningru: 2.5 years old laptop with ipw2200. it works almost 95% of the time, but sometimes it doesn't and I have to unload/reload the driver modules. <pitti> silwol_afk: that's how we maintain some packages in Ubuntu now, very convenient <silwol_afk> okay, thanks a lot. <Seveas> hi' <pitti> silwol_afk: and we can then link your ubuntu branch to the package if it gets uploaded to ubuntu <kjalil> poningru: also suspend to disk was not broken, but is now broken * silwol_afk now has many more bookmarks in the ubuntu folder <poningru> thats def ubuntu bug <pitti> silwol_afk: happy branching then :) <silwol_afk> pitti: i hope i will be glad with it <poningru> kjalil: one good thing about launchpad is that it will allow people to say " this isnt ubuntu specific bug this driver/module/program/thing is atfault we should tell them about it" <poningru> kjalil: so filing a bug in bugs.ubuntu.com is probably the best way <poningru> oh and launchpad == how ubuntu handles bugs <kjalil> poningru: one thing I would like a simple answer to, is all this going to work in the next release? i guess nobody really knows <poningru> right no one really knows unless you test <poningru> the best thing you can do for that is <poningru> when different pre-releases comes out you should install that and test <poningru> kjalil: like what I do is I have a partition specifically setup for ubuntu devel <kjalil> poningru: is there a way to see what is going on in the background on a day-to-day basis so I will be more informed of current affairs and what the goals are, etc? <poningru> uh... you better ask one of these guys for that... <poningru> anyone wanna answer that^^^ <kjalil> poningru: like a mailing list or discussion area where I can see where the project is headed daily and what the problems are etc <poningru> kjalil: I guess ubuntu-devel mailing list is good for that <poningru> but please do not email that list <poningru> also #ubuntu-devel is a good place to hang out for that kinda stuff <poningru> or just watch some of the heavy hitters in launchpad like benc, dholbach etc. <poningru> err not sure if launchpad has 'watching' feature yet <kjalil> poningru: would they be discussing issues with external displays, wireless and suspend to disk over there? i really want to know where those things are going <poningru> kjalil: yes that would be some of the issues they will be dealing with <MarkoKaa> kjalil you mean wireles ass wlan? <MarkoKaa> *typos <poningru> MarkoKaa: or freudian slip? <MarkoKaa> :) <poningru> ;) <kjalil> MarkoKaa: lol yes <MarkoKaa> all my wlan cards are ahve worked fine in Ubuntu, but in Kubuntu my wlan card does't work so well <kjalil> MarkoKaa: my centrino laptop wireless works fine but just occasionally craps out. i want to make it work 100%. what do I do? <kjalil> MarkoKaa: i think it's a closed driver issue so I don't think I can ask too much :( <MarkoKaa> I have same prob in Kubuntu with my Acers wireless, solution: I don't have :( <MarkoKaa> With Ubuntu it works much better <kjalil> MarkoKaa: it's strange though. why it works much better for me in Kubuntu or even Suse for 2 years but in Ubuntu GNOME it's not that reliable. it's very strange issue <kjalil> MarkoKaa: it can't be the drivers in that case <MarkoKaa> Yup, I agree <kjalil> MarkoKaa: it is something that GNOME is messing up <kjalil> MarkoKaa: all these little things stop people from using linux. they *must* be fixed <poningru> kjalil: yeah most def in that case file a bug in bugs.ubuntu.com <MarkoKaa> In ubuntu 5.04 in my D-link wireless worked fine trough ndiswrapper <poningru> MarkoKaa: unacceptable <kjalil> i don't want extra features, just pay some people to fix thses issues once and for all, like a six month deathmarch :) <kjalil> so just in six months linux will be much more viable * poningru goes off to sleep <poningru> nn guys <poningru> have fun <MarkoKaa> :) <kjalil> poningru: thanks <MarkoKaa> hmm.. I've been at work 2.5hours for now, and I haven't done anythinf <MarkoKaa> *anything <pitti> MarkoKaa: see, that's how Ubuntu increases your productiv... erm <pitti> ... fun! :) <MarkoKaa> :) this OpenWeek degreases my productivity :) <MarkoKaa> well my boss don't know about this :) * mnepton hears "grease" and unidles <kjalil> are most people here asleep right now? <poningru> hehe np <MarkoKaa> I don't know :D <poningru> yes <poningru> in the US <MarkoKaa> In Finland time is 11.38 am :D <poningru> well I am off to bed for real this time <mnepton> need grease? <punknroll> same time here in austria <MarkoKaa> :) <MarkoKaa> Damn, I runned out of Coke <blufox> fabbione, i found a bug in heartbeat-2 package for ubuntu ... and fixed it too. Whom should i send bug fix to? <yaso> In inda time is 3:15pm ;) <fabbione> blufox: file a bug with a patch attached <MarkoKaa> :P <yaso> dude, Is there any way to make apt cache directory to cd's <yaso> everytime i need to download the packages <blufox> fabbione, franklly i am into this bug fixing thing for ubuntu for the first time...sorry to ask but i am confused with so many bug lists:( <fabbione> blufox: it's no problem.. just go to launchpad, search for the package, explain the bug and attach the fix <fabbione> blufox: it's the easiest way to track stuff <yaso> any suggesion !! <blufox> thanks fabbione ,shall do that. How can i contribute to ubuntu heartbeat project as a developer ? <fabbione> blufox: well bug fixing and testing is a good start. Another thing is to make sure each bug you find that is not ubuntu related, will be pushed upstream <fabbione> blufox: that way we reduce the overhead and contribute to upstream that will later flow back to us <blufox> fabbione, i cross checked with heartbeat developers , IIRC they deny any such bug in heartbeat package and suggested its an ubuntu bug :( <fabbione> blufox: ok, then please file the bug. i have no way to know the problem if you don't add the details <blufox> sure fabbione ,may be its just some missed out nifty detail in package or whatever but i ll file the bug and fix too :) <kjalil> ok, is all of launchpad for ubuntu only or is there a ubuntu-specific launchpad <dholbach> poningru: or seb128 <blufox> fabbione, i cant submit the bug :( <blufox> fabbione, it says "Heartbeat does not use Malone as its bug tracker." <fabbione> blufox: you are filing the bug to the wrong url <fabbione> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/heartbeat <fabbione> start there <fabbione> or you said hearbeat-2 <snail> QUESTION: I'm a (mono-lingual english-speaking) developer packaging a program that is written and documented in english, but has a target users particularly in C/J/K. What concrete steps can I take to make life easier for me, easier for the translators and better for the users? <fabbione> so https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/heartbeat-2 <blufox> fabbione, heartbeat-2 i mean ..:) <fabbione> well use the second url <blufox> fabbione, done <blufox> fabbione, how can i contribute to ubuntu as a kernel developer? <fabbione> blufox: it depends how much you know about the kernel <mnepton> snail: is this app targetted at Ubuntu specifically, a particular DM, or OS? <fabbione> blufox: what kind of work do you plan to do? <blufox> fabbione, i have worked on misc kernel hacking, SCSI vrtualization , USB subsystem and would like to explore networking subsystem :) <blufox> fabbione, please read that as virtualization <fabbione> blufox: you want to talk to BenC and kylem in #ubuntu-kernel when they will be awake in a few hours <Seveas> Mornin' <mnepton> oy Seveas <blufox> fabbione, any ubuntu project i need to join to be eligible to contribute to ubuntu kernel? <fabbione> nope... <fabbione> just contribute and talk to them on how <mnepton> blufox: my PayPal address is ... >:) <blufox> mnepton, ...gigz ...thanks for that though ..lol :D <Seveas> blufox, you have to learn to ignore mnepton. His mind is where we store all crazyness <blufox> Seveas, shall try :) <mnepton> nonsense. utter nonsense. <Seveas> mnepton, yes, we store the nonsense there as well <Seveas> thanks for the correction <mnepton> now, when i re-assume the Jade Throne and reclaim you all as my slaves, Seveas shall pay. <mnepton> until then ... anyone got some spare change? <Seveas> I have $0,93 left from the US <mnepton> is that enough to purchase your immortal soul? <Seveas> oh, that's been sold already * fabbione prepares the cage to close mnepton again.. sorry for leaving him out <mnepton> gah, day late and US$0.93 short *again* <Seveas> fabbione, grazie <mnepton> fabbione: as if you have any power over me at all ... <punknroll> bye guys <fabbione> eheh * mnepton pouts <juliux> hm perhaps somebody can ban him? <Seveas> juliux, it seems solved now <juliux> Seveas, yes <blufox> thanks a lot fabbione :) <blufox> bye all <popey> moo <Seveas> 51 people and no questions :) <mattl> i've got a question. <elkbuntu> ask away :) <mattl> What does open source mean to you? <elkbuntu> it means that i can do things that i would otherwise would not be able to do. <dholbach> parties! <dholbach> ponies! :-) <elkbuntu> and huggles! * elkbuntu huggles dholbach * dholbach hugs elkbuntu <elkbuntu> mattl, what does it mean to you? <juliux> mattl, that is opensource; <mattl> open source.. i'm never entirely sure what i can do with stuff. i know there's a definition, but lots of stuff is claimed to be 'open source' when it doesn't meet the guidelines. <Corbeaux> what are the guidelines? <Corbeaux> opensource != free <mnepton> free != pony :( <Corbeaux> :( <mattl> See, the reason I choose to say 'free software', is that I think there's a clearly defined idea of what free software is, and that it chooses to make an ethical choice, over functionality. <Corbeaux> gtg bbl :( <elkbuntu> i've never been a fan of the usage of the word 'free' <pitti> mattl: essentially, free software is a subset of open source <elkbuntu> there's enough ambiguities in communication, especially digital communication, without putting philosophy and language against each other <pitti> mattl: i. e. 'open source' is just what it says, source code is available for inspection <pitti> mattl: but the term 'Open Source' does not imply any license model <mattl> that's why it's a meaningless term, imo. <pitti> mattl: whereas free software has clear requirements on the license, and implies openness of source code <pitti> mattl: not totally meanlingless, but largely irrelevant for users, right <palski> http://www.opensource.org/docs/definition.php <mattl> pitti: free software doesn't imply openness of code, it provides the four freedoms. <pitti> palski: right, these are roughly equivalent to Debian's DFSG (in fact, they took Debian's definition as a basis) <pitti> mattl: DFSG terms and above definition of Free software require openness of source code * pitti bows to the King of England * KingOfEngland knights pitti <KingOfEngland> Rise, *Sir* pitti <mattl> pitti: don't they require that you are free to modify, distribute and study the code, and to distribute modified versions? <pitti> mattl: 'require that you are free to distribute' is too weak and doesn't actually require anything :) <Admiral_Chicago> elkbuntu: why don't you like "free" melissa <Admiral_Chicago> ah i see not using languague as a weapon * mnepton sends thousands of naked, blue Picts into KingOfEngland's kitchen <elkbuntu> Admiral_Chicago, i've already stated. the ambiguity of the term. it's also complicated when the philosophy gets translated. <pitti> mattl: it's from an user's POV; whenever you get a piece of free software, you must be able to get the source <mattl> pitti: how so? if i have some free software, modify it.. i'm free to distribute it, but i don't have to.. <Admiral_Chicago> well i understand that, but free does not always mean open source <pitti> mattl: but if you distribute it, you have to provide the source code <mattl> sure. <Admiral_Chicago> take a look at the BSD license. <pitti> Admiral_Chicago: that of course depends on your definition of free software <Admiral_Chicago> pitti: i use the free as in beer, free as in speech <PriceChild> Hey all <Lord_R> ehlo * mattl uses free as in freedom. <pitti> Admiral_Chicago: yeah, the old ambiguity :) <elkbuntu> Admiral_Chicago, free as in speech doesnt apply everywhere in the world, unfortunately <Admiral_Chicago> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSD/License#Proprietary_software_licenses_compatibility <Admiral_Chicago> i don't believe in the BSD license, I believe in the GPL method as of downstream being free as well <mattl> I wonder why nobody's relicensed BSD under the GPL yet. <pitti> mattl: how do you mean? only the copyright holder can do that <Admiral_Chicago> elkbuntu: yes it doesn't exist in every place of the world but i believe it should and I don't believe in restrictive licenses for that reason. you can't limit freedom in some areas and not others <pitti> and it wouldn't make much sense once the software is available under bsd <elkbuntu> Admiral_Chicago, im not saying the terms of the licence are changed by it, but in terms of defining something, using speech as an example is not translatable <mattl> if i can take BSD licensed code and put it under a proprietary license, why can't i take it and put it under the GPL? <elkbuntu> s/translatable/transferable/ <Admiral_Chicago> ah i understand your point and it is a good point <pitti> mattl: " Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright <pitti> * notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer." <pitti> mattl: IANAL, but this seems to be the reason <mattl> i think it's an interesting area to consider though. <mattl> i'd like to see more and more BSD code come under the GPLv3 umbrella. <pitti> mattl: oh, wait, it actually seems to be possible to do that <pitti> mattl: but what would that buy you? * KingOfEngland knights thekorn <jono> maybe its better to spend our time making better software than having pointless license debates? ;) <mnepton> jono: heresy! * pitti agrees <KingOfEngland> jono: Licenses are important in terms of things remaining free though, the FSF sound rabid at times but they ensure our long term freedom <mattl> pitti: the guarantee that people who received a copy wouldn't be able to have their freedom away? <pitti> mattl: no, since it's still available as bsd <mattl> pitti: not of my version. <mattl> jono: there needs to be a #write-code channel, in which you can only talk in C. <mnepton> if all the hot air expended in open source licensing debates were to disappear the world would experience another ice age. <jono> KingOfEngland, they are important, but *way* too much time is spent on pointless license discussion - free software will never rule if we spend too much time directing our efforts on the wrong things <mattl> Corbeaux: hah, you joined! ;) * pitti goes back to fixing network-manager <Corbeaux> lol @matti <jono> mattl, I don't want to limit the discussion, I just wish our community would direct its efforts better <Corbeaux> breakfast was good * mnepton tootles off to make cocoa <mattl> jono: i agree. <KingOfEngland> jono: What do you mean by 'rule' ? Why is the level of market adoption such an important goal? I'd much rather have code that does stuff I want but is free than to compromise on the freedom, hence the freedom should be the primary issue * mattl agrees with KingOfEngland <Admiral_Chicago> jono: i disagree, i've learned a lot about licenses listening to RMS talk, just like I've leaned a lot about the Ubuntu community form Jeff Waugh's speech <mattl> what's more important? 1 user with free software, or 10 with some free software and some non-free software? <jono> I am not saying we should discuss licenses - but I would like to see the people who talk about licenses all the time actually spend some time also making free software better <KingOfEngland> jono: So the FSF / GNU project don't make any software then? <jono> I don't find endless license debates, which are repeated over and over with no outcome as particularly productive use of our time * KingOfEngland throws away GCC <jono> KingOfEngland, did I say FSF or GNU? <jono> no I didnt <KingOfEngland> jono: You said people who talk about licenses all the time, so I think that covers the FSF and GNU pretty well - in fact they're the best example <jono> I am talking about people who endlessly debate licenses without helping make free software better <jono> I don't include RMS here <KingOfEngland> Licenses ensure free software exists! <elkbuntu> what jono's getting at..i believe.. is that it would nice if people could manage to walk the walk *as well as* talk the talk <jono> KingOfEngland, of course, but software is more important than licenses <jono> elkbuntu, exactly <KingOfEngland> jono: but software without the right license is not free, so you have to have the license as the primary thing <elkbuntu> :) <Corbeaux> there are different ways to help, some of us cannot code but can write documentation or ilcenses :p <Seveas> KingOfEngland, a license with no software is useless <highvoltage> licenses is pretty much useless if you don't have software to license it under :) <KingOfEngland> OK, I think we can all agree you need both <jayteeuk> jono: I agree with you about the lack of outcome, which essentially means all the debate is a big waste of time... but we can create all the best software in the world, but it'll be no use to anyone if they can't actually use it. :) <mattl> Corbeaux: if you want to help, we're always looking for more webmasters :) <KingOfEngland> all I am saying is that when you veer away from a free license your software ceases to be free <jono> KingOfEngland, sure, and a license is important - but that why I want to see the license discussed as relative to the importance of the software - to me, a license is critical, but its 90% less interesting than having good software that people can use <mnepton> KingOfEngland: i think proper automobile safety is extremyl important. it is an issue that must be discussed, and must evolve to meet changing needs. but at the end of the day, *i'm not an automotive engineer*. my time is best spent providing useful feedback to the automobile industry as a consumer. <Seveas> mnepton, or learn to build cars <mnepton> Seveas: would *you* drive a car i built? <Corbeaux> webmastering never interested me, i cannot code. I like setting up some software once then trying something else. <elkbuntu> Seveas, he'd build a sparkly pink one <mattl> mnepton: or educating other car users about safety? <Seveas> mnepton, no way :) <Admiral_Chicago> it takes a very different person to understand the nuasces of licensing, much like it takes a different person to understand the subtlety of hacking up code, or building a community <Seveas> but there are billions of orher people ;) <mnepton> mattl: i would not be "educating" from an informed POV, since *i am not an automotive engineer* <jono> I just wish some of the people who treasure freedom so rigourously would actually help the free software effort - debating licenses all day and rehashing RMSs views are not productive IMHO <KingOfEngland> Thats a very short term way of looking at things though, if we don't constantly stay on our guard to ensure things remain free then in 10 years you won't be able to write free software because it will have been made illegal, writing code will be impossible from patents, and you will be running in a TPM sandbox <Corbeaux> mnepton: i wouldn't try to build a car myself especially not when there are so many others who are much lauren32@example.com. Not sure if they can drive as well as I can though <Admiral_Chicago> in the end of the day, we all must play to our streghts to build something phenomenal <mattl> mnepton: i wouldn't say you'd need to be. <jono> KingOfEngland, I don't mind people who talk licensing - so long as they improve the licenses or the way the licenses are used <KingOfEngland> However maligned the license people are, they're like the guidance system on a rocket - sure the rocket people want to make it go faster - but just going 'up' doesnt help much if you veer back down again later on <jono> bloggers who bang on about licensing with no productive outcome are who I am talking aobut <KingOfEngland> jono: They're increasing awareness <jono> KingOfEngland, rubbish <KingOfEngland> jono: ! <Admiral_Chicago> jono: you spend too much time on the blogosphere :) <jono> KingOfEngland, awareness is not talking about the issue <mnepton> mattl: i would say that if you propose to "educate" people on any subject, you need to be "educated" in that subject. and "having an opinion" != "educated" <KingOfEngland> jono: Next time I want to blog something I'll get your approval that it is a worthwhile post! <jono> awareness is making things more accessible <jono> KingOfEngland, I never said that * mattl wants a tshirt that says 'fuck teh blogosphere!!1' <KingOfEngland> jono: You made a blanket statement about bloggers talking about licenses <elkbuntu> you can go blue in the face talking about licencing, you could write this uber awesome licence that is loophole free and makes for certain that even the martians would have freedoms, but that's no use if it's not actually *used* on anything * KingOfEngland activates the blog-o-matic <jono> KingOfEngland, my point is that I would love to see this endless debate about licensing result in better education about licenses - I have seen a lot of debate, but not seen the licensing situation get any better or easier to understand <mattl> elkbuntu: i don't think need more licenses. i think we need less licenses. <KingOfEngland> elkbuntu: Yes but society needs people with different interests and skills, some people are really interested in licenses so they make them, others want to write software but not licenses, and so on <mnepton> KingOfEngland: reductio ad absurdum is a cheap tactic from someone that puts themselves forth as an erudite and educated voice of software licensing issues ;) <KingOfEngland> To suggest they are exclusive pursuits is ridiculous <Seveas> MatthewV, indeed <Seveas> mattl* * Admiral_Chicago writes a license to protect software on a toaster <mattl> Admiral_Chicago: GPL will do that for you. <KingOfEngland> mnepton: Reductio ad absurdum is an entirely reasonable way of showing the flaws in someones reasoning ;-) <jono> anyway, debating the merits of debating is as equally unproductive :P <jono> I am going back to work :) <Seveas> good call <Admiral_Chicago> mattl: i was joking <mattl> jono: ping me next time you're on a break. <Seveas> no point in wasting time here <jono> mattl, cool stuff :) <elkbuntu> and that's precisely the point ;) <mattl> is there anyone here, who would like to write code, but can't? <Corbeaux> me :) <nate599> meeeeee <PriceChild> mattl me <KingOfEngland> mattl: Does FSF need any Visual Basic coders? I'm really hot on VB3 * Corbeaux is limited to simple bash scripts :( <PriceChild> I'll get round to it one day... :) <elkbuntu> mattl, can, but cbf. i do community stuff instead <nate599> though not for any practical use. just to pass some time and try something new <Admiral_Chicago> my last few words on this: I've convinced people to leave their propriety machines because of the restrictive licensing and switch to Ubuntu, i don't see how being knowledgeable about diferent licenses is limiting in anyway <elkbuntu> annoying people is much more fun than coding <PriceChild> hehe <jono> just clarify one point - when I say help free software, I don't specifically mean coding- I mean docs, marketing, art or anything else <jono> right I really am going back to work now... :P <jono> have fun peeps :) <jayteeuk> ttfn jono <PriceChild> "helping"!!! elkbuntu <Seveas> have fun Lord Bacon <elkbuntu> rofl <jono> :) <Admiral_Chicago> general question: what does documentation involve? <snail> Admiral_Chicago: writing, proofing, translating and testing man pages, wiki pages and html pages <Admiral_Chicago> snail: ah okay i see <Admiral_Chicago> i've helped on some wiki pages but that's all <bakert> hello out there in ubuntu land <Seveas> hi <PriceChild> hi <nate599> top o' the morning <MarkoKaa> hey <bakert> So, I've got a community question. <elkbuntu> bakert, ask away :) <bakert> I'm a programmer. I use Ubuntu on my laptop. I'm not a C programmer. But I have up to 7 years experience of Java, Python, Ruby, Lisp, Perl, etc. <elkbuntu> "dont ask to ask, just ask" <mnepton> bakert: i'm a Gemini. i like cuddling, long walks on the beach, and ponies. <bakert> What should I be doing/can I do to contribute? <bhale> mnepton: i also like cuddling and ponies! <bhale> mnepton: asl? <bakert> I've made about 3 notes on some bugs in launchpad but that's about the size of it. <bakert> What's next? <Seveas> bhale, mnepton: get a room <mnepton> bhale: ageless/neuter/right behind you * elkbuntu kicks mnepton and bhale into the closet. <Seveas> bakert, what do you like to do? <elkbuntu> bakert, have you been using Linux long? <bhale> you guys are no fun. <mnepton> bakert: what do you enjoy doing? like, what kind of work? <Corbeaux> a/s/l everyone <Corbeaux> j/k <elkbuntu> Seveas, where's ubugtu? I'm feeling this really strong desire to lart people. <Corbeaux> 12/m/next to chavez <bakert> I like writing programs. I guess something with a UI over something hidden in the depths. But any program. I was only a very casual Linux user until I switched to it on my laptop nearly a year ago. <effie_jayx> Corbeaux, colombia? <mnepton> ?lart elkbuntu <ubuntoid> mnepton: Error: There are no larts in my database for #Ubuntu-freshers. <Corbeaux> neh <mnepton> ?insult elkbuntu <ubuntoid> elkbuntu - You are nothing but a hacked-up bag of impure snake. <Corbeaux> trinidad <elkbuntu> ... <Seveas> mnepton, please remove that bot <pitti> bakert: we have quite a few desktop applications that are written in python <mnepton> roger that <Admiral_Chicago> bakert: you may be helpful with
{'channel': 'ubuntu-freshers', 'month': 12}