#ayatana 2010-01-04 <djsiegel1> hey MDC1 <djsiegel1> working on any papercuts? :) <djsiegel1> kenvandine: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/+bug/502996 can you triage? <ubot4> Launchpad bug 502996 in hundredpapercuts "Edit Custom Messages window is too narrow" [Undecided,Confirmed] <djsiegel1> kwwii: do you know who could take ownership of this? https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/empathy/+bug/502999 <ubot4> Launchpad bug 502999 in hundredpapercuts "The microphone and webcam icons displayed in the buddy list need improvement" [Undecided,Confirmed] <djsiegel1> DanRabbit: ^ <kwwii> djsiegel1: do you know if those icons are in the humanity/elementary set or if they are in empathy itself? <djsiegel1> I am pretty sure they are in empathy <kwwii> hrm, I don't think they are...I cannot find them in any of the empathy packages <kwwii> in fact, I bet these do not exist in the humanity theme at all <kwwii> the camera is from the gnome theme <\vish> kwwii: hi... which icon? screenshot pls.. in humanity we do have a microphone icon <kwwii> \vish: yeah, the one is from humanity and the other is from the gnome theme <kwwii> no wonder they don't match :p <\vish> hehe.. ;) <kwwii> /usr/share/icons/gnome/16x16/devices/camera-web.png <\vish> the mic is this one? > /Humanity/devices/48/audio-input-microphone.svg right <\vish> ? <kwwii> djsiegel1: it seems that the real bug here is that humanity does not have a camera-web icon <kwwii> \vish: yeah, that is why it is so blurry <\vish> yeah , only 48px one exists.. :( <kwwii> so that one bug is really two <djsiegel1> hmm <kwwii> a) the microphone icon in humanity needs a small size <djsiegel1> I don't think this is something to fix in the icon theme <kwwii> b) humanity needs a camera-web icon (or link) <djsiegel1> these need to be special icons for this use case <djsiegel1> or we need a new icon name added to all icon themes <djsiegel1> capability-audio and capability-video <kwwii> maybe this would be better included in status- ? <djsiegel1> I mentioned in the bug that these icons should have a specific style, and if we implement that style in the theme, it will leak to unintended places <djsiegel1> hmm <djsiegel1> status-microphone-available ? <djsiegel1> status-video-enabled ? <kwwii> hehe, again this brings us to the simplified icon discussion <kwwii> yeah <djsiegel1> icon themes are so so overloaded <kwwii> lol, you don't have to tell me that <djsiegel1> kwwii: do you have a community guy who would be interested in solving this? <kwwii> djsiegel1: I'll send an email to the list and we'll see what happens <djsiegel1> awesome <kwwii> I have several emails in waiting in my outbox to the list already ;) <djsiegel1> which list? <kwwii> ubuntu-art <kwwii> I gotta run to the store, be back in a bit <kwwii> hi \vish, nice nick <\vish> kwwii: hehe.. yeah , updated the nick :) <\vish> kwwii, djsiegel1: if monochrome icons are needed , the naming would need to be camera-web-symbolic and audio-input-microphone-symbolic , more in-line with the proposal at the UDS <\vish> if we dont include them in the humanity theme the icons could fallback to the default gnome ones <djsiegel1> ok, seems reasonable <MDC1> heeey djsiegel <MDC1> well.. no <MDC1> djsiegel, i'd love to but atm i've got a lot of personal projects to work on.. but when they become boring i'll get back to oss coding :) <djsiegel1> MDC1: ok :) #ayatana 2010-01-08 <vish> djsiegel1: is Bug #391468 a papercut or shall we close it? <ubot4> Launchpad bug 391468 in evolution "Evolution message filters window's default size is too small" [Wishlist,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/391468 <djsiegel1> let's see... <djsiegel1> I just marked fixed <vish> djsiegel1: also , for Bug #502999 , upstream doesnt seem interested in monochrome icons , so i guess the fix needs to be in Humanity. I'v included a monochrome icons for mic in humanity.. currently its a mic , because the icon might be used elsewhere , but when tweak is done in empathy to use -symbolic names I'v change it to speaker <ubot4> Launchpad bug 502999 in hundredpapercuts "The microphone and webcam icons displayed in the buddy list need improvement" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/502999 <vish> s/I'v/I'll <djsiegel1> vish: yeah, it appears upstream wants those icons to be a call button <djsiegel1> so instead of using icons, they need to use something that looks more like a button <vish> they can use buttons themselves by moving those items away from the buddy list ;) <djsiegel1> right, they freaked out when I suggested that <djsiegel1> "zomg that sucks it takes more clicks! <vish> djsiegel1: according to upstream bug report , they want to fix it _because_ its tooo easy to click it and is being a pain ;) <vish> oh.. well , want can be do :) <vish> s/be/we <djsiegel1> so, let's get this straight <djsiegel1> what does upstream disagree with? <djsiegel1> ok, monochrome won't do because they want a button-like appearance <djsiegel1> that's a lot of buttons in your buddy list... :( <vish> djsiegel1: exactly too much clutter _beside_ the names in the buddy list... it could rather be just two buttons at the bottom of the list which activate when the buddy is selected <djsiegel1> ok vish <djsiegel1> vish: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/217582/Files%20Shared%20from%20GNOME%20Do/Screenshot-2-1213890507.png <vish> djsiegel1: neat , i like it :) <vish> djsiegel1: is that a mockup or did you fix it? <djsiegel1> mockup <vish> ah , nice #ayatana 2010-01-09 <djsiegel1> vish: hey <djsiegel1> vish: why did you mark that gwibber bug fix committed? <vish> djsiegel1: o/ <djsiegel1> I don't think it was committed.... <vish> djsiegel1: you added the branch and it had a merge proposal <djsiegel1> yeah but it wasn't merged or even reviewed yet <djsiegel1> that's like marking a bug fixed just because it has a patch <djsiegel1> it isn't fixed <vish> djsiegel1: iirc , the status for bugs if they are present in a branch is fix committed... let me check <djsiegel1> nope <vish> djsiegel1: ah.. oops , * vish fixin it <djsiegel1> thanks :) #ayatana 2010-01-10 <vish> seg|ars: hi... have you had the chance to checkout the papercut gwibber bugs? <vish> https://launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/+milestone/lucid-round-5 , David has also done a couple of fixes <seg|ars> vish: yeah, I talked to david this morning <vish> seg|ars: cool... [was just making sure] :) <seg|ars> thanks <vish> seg|ars: BTW , do i need to attach any other info/debug for Bug #502021 ? <ubot4> Launchpad bug 502021 in gwibber "Gwibber stops working when running for several hours" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/502021 <seg|ars> that bug is fixed in my experimental branch. :-) <vish> yay... awesome. :) <seg|ars> switching from urllib to curl fixed a lot of weird crashers, but I've also added an extra layer of insulation by moving the message loading out of process <seg|ars> if the program encounters a fatal error or even a segmentation fault while it's downloading message data, it won't take down the daemon <vish> ah.. <vish> seg|ars: while i have you here , would you consider using -symbolic namespace for tray icon? We would like to add a monochrome icon for gwibber in humanity without affecting the menu [http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/SymbolicIcons] <seg|ars> that would be good <seg|ars> how exactly does that work? <seg|ars> do I check to see of gwibber-symbolic is part of the user's icon theme and then use my current default icon as a fallback if it's not? <vish> seg|ars: yup , <seg|ars> ok, that's pretty easy <vish> seg|ars: you want a bug to fix that? <seg|ars> yeah, that would help me remember * vish filing bug <seg|ars> thanks <seg|ars> I guess I have to rewrite the tray icon code for the new menu stuff anyway <vish> oh... yeah <mrmcq2u> hey kenvandine <mrmcq2u> kenvandine - Have you tested rgba support from murrine trunk with your gtk ppa? #ayatana 2010-01-11 <alex_mayorga> Hi, is there a patch coming to let me tell firefox I want to see notifications even when in full screen? <vish> alex_mayorga: you need to ask MacSlow ;) he'd probably be here in a fwe hrs <vish> alex_mayorga: but it seems to be planned for lucid <alex_mayorga> I also believe that the whole urgency level should be left up for we users to decide <alex_mayorga> make those available as "System > Preferences > Notifications" <vish> alex_mayorga: the min you say "prefs" the idea is most likely to be shot down ;) <alex_mayorga> well whomever is in charge might want to take a look at #ubuntu+1 log from moments ago <alex_mayorga> I believe this would serve as a summary "I think is plainly arrogant to decide for users, what's important or not or how fast they should read and such" <vish> alex_mayorga: i agree the prefs are needed... But , *i think* , what they are trying to do is to get the default settings perfect before allowing the users to montgomeryrobert@example.net... the default seems to be the high priority for canonical and the config/prefs are probably not in their schedule [unless someone outside works on them] <alex_mayorga> why try to get it to perfect for me, when just I will know what's perfect for *me* <alex_mayorga> and then "perfection" would be in the eye of the beholder in the end <alex_mayorga> but yeah, from the wiki I can tell configuration is not at the top of the priority list if at all <vish> alex_mayorga: well, you can of course switch/use the notification daemon :) <alex_mayorga> I've kind of got to that conclusion from what I've seen so far <alex_mayorga> just wanted to say once more that if you make it 100% configurable then you're done ;) <alex_mayorga> otherwise just get ready to deal with loads of "incorrect urgency" bug reports <alex_mayorga> as what is "important" for Jon Doe might not be for Jane Doe <ScottK> alex_mayorga: I totally agree with you, but that's not been the perspective of this project. <alex_mayorga> this is only being pushed in ubuntu, not upstream right? <vish> Ubuntu is upstream for notify-osd <alex_mayorga> ScottK, and is not turning over for what I see <ScottK> vish: Actually no. Ayatana is upstream for notify-osd. It's a separate project from Ubuntu (but also sponsored by Canonical) <alex_mayorga> vish: what are OSD "competitors" then? <vish> ScottK: argh! slipped Ubuntu==canonical ;) <vish> alex_mayorga: i dont think there are any competitors... unless you consider the gnome3 notifications/ message tray ... <vish> alex_mayorga: if you have been following the ayatana discussions.. any mention of a pref/gconf is most definitely shot down.. there is nothing much to say after that.. its their[canonical] money and their choosing of how they spend it... <alex_mayorga> I guess the last comment on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NotifyOSD/Comments should do then <RAOF> alex_mayorga: It's already 100% configurable; you've got access to lp:notify-osd. Nothing else will be 100% configurable. <alex_mayorga> RAOF, mind elaborating on lp:notify-osd? <RAOF> That's the source branch. <RAOF> I'm suggesting that â100% configurableâ and âusefulâ are in opposition. <alex_mayorga> RAOF, so you mean the only configuration point one has is the source code? <RAOF> alex_mayorga: No, I mean the only way that you can have a 100% configurable application is with the source code. But it's also true that the only configuration at the moment is the source code. <RAOF> alex_mayorga: I'm just disagreeing with your âif you make it 100% configurable then you're doneâ statement. <alex_mayorga> RAOF: I believe making it that way would render the "problem" non-existant <RAOF> At the cost of introducing new problems, yes. <ScottK> RAOF: Certainly, but OTOH, it's also equally impossible to design the one true configuration for all users. <seg|ars> djsiegel1: are you around? <djsiegel1> hey <seg|ars> what do you think of this: http://gwibber.com/screenshots/misc/gwibber-navbar.ogg <djsiegel1> seg|ars: dude, ace <seg|ars> you like it? :-) <djsiegel1> yeah <seg|ars> awesome <djsiegel1> but I don't think you should use colors for the full treeview <djsiegel1> because you have indentation <seg|ars> yeah, I agree. I wasn't sure whether to keep it or not <djsiegel1> seg|ars: can you make the message entry like pidgin's? <seg|ars> where it auto-expands? <djsiegel1> 1/2 lines tall by default with auto-grow? <djsiegel1> yeah, it's a very tall entry by default (what you have now) <djsiegel1> would be nice to make it lighter <seg|ars> yeah <seg|ars> I'm not sure that I want to implement the auto-grow <djsiegel1> yeah, would be a nice bonus <seg|ars> it's a very non-standard behavior for gtk and it creates tons of technical problems in pidgin <djsiegel1> and it's already implemented, you just need to port from pidgin <djsiegel1> it may only be a few lines <djsiegel1> yeah <seg|ars> that's unfortunately not the case <seg|ars> the implementation they have is very specific to their UI <djsiegel1> you are sure? <seg|ars> yeah, I've looked at it before and I've talked to one of the developers about it <djsiegel1> ok <seg|ars> the gwibber team has been discussing that feature for about a year now <seg|ars> and it's just not practical to include it in the program at this time <djsiegel1> right <djsiegel1> good call <seg|ars> personally, I think that upstream gtk needs to provide native support for it in a way that is not a complete hack <djsiegel1> then maybe go with a static, 2-line entry <djsiegel1> yeah upstream gtk needs to move forward <djsiegel1> they limit the imaginations of all app developers <seg|ars> it's really a very bad toolkit. Some of my recent experimentation with Qt has left with the impression that gtk is a dead end <seg|ars> the new sidebar that I showed you was built entirely with webkit <djsiegel1> ha! <djsiegel1> nice <seg|ars> it would have been a huge pain in the ass to do that with gtk and cairo <seg|ars> it's kind of ironic. I made gwibber because I wanted a native alternative to AIR apps, but more and more of the gwibber UI is html <seg|ars> wrt to the static 2-line entry, that's something I'll consider <djsiegel1> ok, cool <djsiegel1> 3 is just large <seg|ars> a lot of users really like having a resizable entry, but I think it creates too many problems <djsiegel1> yeah <seg|ars> at the very least, the default behavior needs to be much better <djsiegel1> ok seg|ars <djsiegel1> seg|ars: this week's paperjam is gwibber <djsiegel1> seg|ars: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/+milestone/lucid-round-5 <seg|ars> ok <seg|ars> the one that interests me most on that list is the one about gwibber jumping to the top of the page <seg|ars> I'd love to find a good solution to that problem <djsiegel1> seg|ars: can you assign someone on your team to work with me to collect 10 paper cuts? <djsiegel1> if you have any juicy papercuts that you plan to fix for lucid, you can file them, or tell me and I will file and assign to you. <seg|ars> ok <seg|ars> for all of the papercuts relating to account management and creation, you can talk to kenvandine. He's working on our new account UI <seg|ars> I'll help you find other things to fill out the list <djsiegel1> thank you, much appreciated <djsiegel1> the only problem is getting people to hack on gwibber <djsiegel1> since it's not easily hackabale atm <seg|ars> yeah <djsiegel1> I think gwibber is an awesome place for newcomers to learn to write patches <djsiegel1> it's so easy to hack and run <seg|ars> I've made some fixes to the overhaul branch that might make it runnable <vish> djsiegel1: hi... do you want to include this bug > Bug 253452 <ubot4> Launchpad bug 253452 in empathy "Confusing error message when ICQ users have different encodings" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/253452 <djsiegel1> vish: we already have ten for the paper jam <djsiegel1> but I would add it as a paper cut but not schedule it <vish> ok sure <tedg> bratsche: What do you think about this API for fallback to StatusIcon? http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ted/indicator-application/fallback/revision/47 <tedg> bratsche: I was figuring folks who want to do custom stuff, they can just subclass. <bratsche> tedg: So what would this do exactly? If you don't have the applet installed then it returns a GtkStatusIcon? <tedg> bratsche: Yeah. <tedg> bratsche: And if it comes back we'd get rid of it. <bratsche> tedg: Cool <tedg> bratsche: I've been debating signal or function, and I think a function makes the most sense. As the default functionality can be totally removed. <bratsche> So then does the application need to check for this and then set the GtkStatusIcon image and menu stuff itself, or does libappindicator do this internally? <tedg> The idea is that appindicator would do that automatically. <tedg> But, if you wanted to do something different than just having the menu hanging off the icon. <tedg> You could do that yourself by subclassing. <bratsche> Cool. #ayatana 2010-01-12 <mrmcq2u> has anyone tried installing murrine from git with the rgba + client side windows ppa stuff installed? <vish> djsiegel1: does the word razor seem right to you > http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1325768/pitivi.png <djsiegel1> vish: I believe the word "Split" is more often used <vish> yeah... <mrmcq2u> kenvandine - your blog is broken, it asks to login before you can post a comment :( #ayatana 2010-01-13 <kenvandine> mrmcq2u, i don't think i can do anything about that, it is a gnome.org thing <kenvandine> mrmcq2u, however, i think if you have openid you can login to comment <vish> MacSlow: hi...[mac_v here] has Bug #500663 been reported already? can we add it to the notify-osd papercut jam? <ubot4> Launchpad bug 500663 in notify-osd "Notification mouseover behavior is unintuitive" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/500663 <vish> its part of the specs mpt has listed on the wiki <MacSlow> vish, it's not a papercut, but rather a principle design decision <MacSlow> vish, it is?! <vish> MacSlow: yeah <vish> MacSlow: "if a notification bubble has been fully visible for 2000 ms when the pointer enters, it should switch to its mouseover appearance until the pointer leaves, then switch back to its normal appearance and display for a further 3000 ms." <vish> the fix that the user mentions , is basically what mpt mentions [or atleast what i'v understood :) ] <MacSlow> vish, that's not a papercut as it requires some substantial changes in notify-osd due to the timer-observation and especially the extension of the timeout <vish> MacSlow: oh , sure... <MacSlow> vish, last cycle I started working on that (the needed foundation to actually be able to _extend_ a running timer) <vish> MacSlow: BTW , do you already have a bug where the wifi notifications dont merge? [iirc it was part of what you mentioned to be a papercut bug at the uds] <MacSlow> vish, sounds rather like a network-manager bug (not directly notify-osd) <MacSlow> vish, but a bug-number always helps to get me on your page <vish> i couldnt find a bug :( .. hence asked ... i'll search harder ;) <vish> MacSlow: ah found it > Bug #501632 <ubot4> Launchpad bug 501632 in notify-osd "Wireless network notifications queue up and then display at incorrect times" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/501632 <MacSlow> vish, that's something for mpt/design to figure out first... because it requires a conceptual change <vish> MacSlow: how does the volume notification able to merge the bubbles? as you said it may be the wrong notification send by the nm applet <vish> s/does/is <MacSlow> vish, volume/brightness/eject etc use synchronous (or feedback) notifications... they get displayed immediately (replacing and previous sync. notification if displayed) <MacSlow> vish, normal apps (like nm-applet/network-manager) use asynchronous notifications, which are under notify-osd's queue control, hence the possible difference in notification reception and notification display <vish> MacSlow: could async notifications somehow force the replace? since i'v noticed a wfi bubble when connection is lost and the re-connection do not match with the actual connection status... <vish> i'd be re-connected but the bubble would still say , "disconnected" ;) <vish> and only after a few secs the bubble would disappear and then say "connected" <MacSlow> vish, async. notifications are not intended for this kind of use. <MacSlow> vish, this issue is not simple to solve <vish> MacSlow: .. yeah , its not a papercut .. but how do we fix this? from notify-osd or from the nm applet end? <vish> asking the nm-applet to send sync notification instead? <MacSlow> vish, I'm not in "notify-osd mode" right now so cannot give a full view on it <MacSlow> but I feel it needs some conceptual change for network-manager <vish> lol.. cool <MacSlow> vish, no! nm-applet should _not_ use sync. for that <vish> ok <MacSlow> this is reserved for direct "hardware-feedback" type of things <vish> MacSlow: sure , thanks for clearing stuff up :) <vish> s/stuff/silly questions <jamalta> Hi, is pynotify the best way to use the new notify-osd from python? <jamalta> Or would it be better to just rely on dbus? <jamalta> Ah, it seems that pynotify is just an abstraction that uses dbus <magcius> Is there any reason revisions 408, 409 is in the karmic branch but not in trunk? <magcius> Of notify-osd, that is <jono> bratsche, where do I set the icon for an app-indicator? #ayatana 2010-01-14 <bratsche> jono: You can either do it when you create the indicator, with app_indicator_new() <bratsche> Or with app_indicator_set_icon() <jono> bratsche, what to I pass set_icon? <jono> bratsche, a path to an icon? <bratsche> No, the icon name. <jono> hmmm <jono> how can I find out an apps icon name? <bratsche> There's some icon naming spec somewhere.. tbh I don't really know where is a proper list of these names. :/ <jono> ahhh its ok <RAOF> jono: The .desktop file is generally a good place. <jono> I have it <jono> ok solved that <jono> bratsche, ok, right now I have: <jono> self.statusicon.connect('popup-menu', self.on_icon_popup, self.menu) <jono> I need to port this over to appindicator <bratsche> Oh damn, people use Python? Ugh. <bratsche> :) <jono> heh <jono> I tried: self.menu.connect('popup-menu', self.on_icon_popup) and no luck <jono> I just want to trigger the popup-menu signal <jono> I guess there needs to be an appindicator signal for this <jono> as it maps to the gtkstatusicon <bratsche> I think you can emit the signal yourself, but I don't know the Python fu for it. <bratsche> But I think you can do g_signal_emit_by_name (self.menu, "popup-menu",....) <jono> hmmm <jono> I basically want to run a method when the icon is clicked on <jono> so I would need to detect when it is clicking on <bratsche> Oh, when someone clicks on the indicator? <jono> yes <jono> maybe I could use set-focus-child <jono> I basically want to regenerate the menu whenever it is clicked <jono> as it has dynamic items <bratsche> Oh shit. <bratsche> Hmm. <bratsche> I don't think you can do that right now. <jono> balls <bratsche> Let me think for a sec. <jono> thanks :) <bratsche> I think one option is that you could dump a menu with every menuitem to the indicator, and then hide the menuitems dynamically. But I don't think there's currently any event proxy for that popup-menu event so you'd need to hide the menuitems at runtime as they change. <jono> it seems like I just need to ask ted to add this <bratsche> Yeah probably. <jono> ok, thanks pal <jono> Getting Things GNOME is most of the way there :) <bratsche> Nice! <jono> bratsche, ok, I emailed him about it <jono> thanks! <bratsche> Sure dude, any time :) <vish> djsiegel1: hi.. the solution for the .RUN file was trivial [or i think so] we can keep the terminal from auto-closing? is that tugh? <vish> tough* <djsiegel1> vish: I don't think it's a good paper cut <djsiegel1> (1) it doesn't affect most Ubuntu users <djsiegel1> (2) changing it will break behavior for many sys admins who have written scripts <djsiegel1> many people may depend on terminals closing themselves <djsiegel1> we could break that, and then support calls would explode from users with exited terminals filling up their screens :) <vish> ok , ;) <djsiegel1> but I agree it's a good feature for GNOME Terminal to implement -- keep open <djsiegel1> I've needed it in the past <vish> djsiegel1: yeah , thats why i didnt set a milestone :) <djsiegel1> And you can confirm paper cuts without milestoneing them <djsiegel1> looks like we have way more than 10 paper cuts queued up for round-10 <vish> djsiegel1: thats for now , on purpose... <djsiegel1> ok <vish> djsiegel1: i'v been trying to get some folks fix bugs on milestone 10 , so if they fix it we are good.. <djsiegel1> ok, cool <jono> tedg, bratsche, take a look at http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/356738/ <jono> its a simple python script that creates an app indicator <jono> the problem is that when I wrap the indicator code in a class and create an object and create it, it doesnt work <jono> if I just run the indicator code without the class it works fine <jono> any idea why? <jono> the class runs ok, the constructor is run <bratsche> Because it's written in Python, and God has already killed all the available kittens for the day. * bratsche clicks <jono> haha <jono> bratsche, tedg I think it might be a bug, as the class is running <jono> aha, just the man <jono> DBO, can you look at http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/356738/ <jono> its a simple python script that creates an app indicator <jono> the problem is that when I wrap the indicator code in a class and create an object and create it, it doesnt work <jono> if I just run the indicator code without the class it works fine <jono> any idea why? <jono> the class runs ok, the constructor is run <DBO> looking <jono> thanks <jono> I added a quick test to create and show a gtk window in the constructor and it showed, so the gtk mainloop is running <jono> I want to get this snippet in python-snippets :) <DBO> interesting problem jono <jono> DBO, odd, eh? <DBO> I wonder if python is gcing it <DBO> nope <jono> DBO, gcing? <DBO> garbage collecting <DBO> oh wait <DBO> got it <DBO> you got bit by garbage collection <DBO> jono, http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/356741/ <jono> DBO, what is different? <DBO> the self's <jono> oh they are self <jono> why does that matter? <DBO> it stores the variables as class level instead of method <DBO> so your constructor was ending, and then the items were being collected <jono> oh right <jono> gotcha <jono> thanks! <jono> hmm still not working * DBO double checks <DBO> works fine here <DBO> i see an ubuntu icon <DBO> and 4 menu items <jono> oh it does work <DBO> ok good <jono> thanks DBO! <DBO> np <mrmcq2u> why has rgba been ripped from the ppa? <tedg> mrmcq2u: My guess would be that it's gone into the main distro... but I bet kenvandine would know. * kenvandine reads back <mrmcq2u> well a new version of gtk has been pushed into lucid but I saw nothing about rgba in the changelog <jono> Application Indicator example added to python-snippets :) <kenvandine> mrmcq2u, oh... i don' tknow... ask bratsche <kenvandine> latest patch he gave me removed it <mrmcq2u> thats odd <tedg> jono: Cool! <mrmcq2u> was hoping to test it with murrine from git which required a later version of gtk than the one previously supplied in the ppa <jono> tedg, :) <kenvandine> bratsche, i assume you have the story on that? <bratsche> Hang on a minute <jono> tedg, jcastro http://www.jonobacon.org/2010/01/14/application-indicators-rocking-the-house/ <tedg> jcastro: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/ApplicationIndicators#Custom%20Fallbacks <jcastro> tedg: thanks <jcastro> I'll fix the spelling <tedg> jcastro: I really wanted to link to the fallback and unfallback functions in that last file... but I can't figure out how to do that with Loggerhead. :( <tedg> jcastro: Thanks :) <bratsche> mrmcq2u: I reverted some of those changes for now. I need to focus on one thing at a time, and that was getting in the way. <bratsche> mrmcq2u: It is still something that's planned, but I don't know any specific timetables for it right now. <mrmcq2u> right <mrmcq2u> planned for lucid though right? <bratsche> Oh I think I was misreading some of this. Yeah, a new version of gtk went into Lucid that doesn't have this patch.. but a new version went into the Desktop PPA that has an updated version of the patch, and this is hopefully going into Lucid soon. <bratsche> The new revision in the desktop PPA doesn't have the rgba stuff, because I don't have time to debug some stuff at the moment. <bratsche> Whether it goes into Lucid or into M I don't know yet, depends on time. There's other stuff that needs working on. But it is still planned, I just can't answer yet when it's going in. <bratsche> We need a bot to entertain us in this channel. <tedg> bratsche: Oh, I thought that was your job! ;) <kwwii> bratsche: did you see my email about csd? #ayatana 2010-01-15 <djsiegel> MDC2: what's up <djsiegel3> vish! <djsiegel3> vish: paper cuts are not to be marked invalid because the are fixed upstream! <vish> djsiegel3: hmm , yup ... <vish> djsiegel3: which bug did i mark invalid? i marked one fix released but didnt assign milestone.. <djsiegel3> shoot I closed it... <vish> djsiegel3: the archive behavior works as expected.. are you facing a problem with it? <djsiegel3> can you link me? <vish> djsiegel3: Bug 503690 , there is no bug there , even pedro can reproduce it <ubot4> Launchpad bug 503690 in hundredpapercuts "Cannot Extract in File Roller When Using Default Location" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/503690 <djsiegel3> hmm <vish> oops , pedro cant* <djsiegel3> ok <djsiegel3> I can't <vish> djsiegel3: ah.. the nautilus bug... not sure , how i marked it invalid , i was intending to mark it fix released along with nautilus.. :s .. nice catch :) <MDC2> djsiegel3, well.... still busy with a lot of different things at work montgomeryrobert@example.net... <djsiegel3> MDC2: I was just wondering if sometime your could give me a tutorial on your Nautilus work <MDC2> djsiegel, hmm.. like what i've done? <djsiegel> like what you've done, how you set up your build <djsiegel> I just want to get in the mindset of someone who was fixed some paper cuts, see your process <MDC2> hehe.. alright, i'll see what i can do :) <MDC2> bbl, food <djsiegel> mccann: hey <mccann> yo djsiegel <djsiegel> mccann: can we have a phone chat? <djsiegel> mccann: oh maybe we can try to empathize each other <mccann> empathize? you mean IM? <djsiegel> mccann: I mean voice chat <mccann> futuristic :) I'm not sure I'm set up for that <mccann> phone is probably better <djsiegel> ok, great <djsiegel> can I haveyour number and call you in 5? <djsiegel> btw, everyone in here, my cell # +1-585-472-9035 if you ever want an old-fashioned chat <MDC2> "old-fashioned chat"... :) #ayatana 2010-01-17 <seiflotfy> hey guys <seiflotfy> guys i have a little python MeMenu prototype thingie here <seiflotfy> that act like a menu <seiflotfy> although its a window <seiflotfy> who can i contact <hyperair> hmm notify-osd hates fractional font sies <hyperair> sizes* <maxriskfactor> hyperair, any major problem with it <maxriskfactor> ? <hyperair> maxriskfactor: set your application font size to 7.5 or something <hyperair> or 8.5 <hyperair> or anything with the dot <hyperair> and see what happens. <hyperair> notify-osd gets really tiny <hyperair> because it thinks that the font size is 0. <maxriskfactor> ahh.. <hyperair> there's a fix. <hyperair> but that was aages ago <hyperair> october last yer <maxriskfactor> the same problem was with Gwibber to <hyperair> that's 3 months! <maxriskfactor> *too <hyperair> but why hasn't it gotten uploaded? <hyperair> er <hyperair> gwibber? <maxriskfactor> fractional fonts size made it to act stupidly <maxriskfactor> yes.. dunno the situation now.. <hyperair> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/notify-osd/+bug/396736 <maxriskfactor> mostly people don't change the font size, so it should not affect a lot of people <ubot4> Launchpad bug 396736 in notify-osd "notify-osd seems to be unable to use some of the fonts" [Medium,In progress] <maxriskfactor> but still, this is a big bug <hyperair> it annoys me <hyperair> MASSIVELY <hyperair> it annoyed me enough to go digging inside notify-osd code to fix it <hyperair> then i find out that the fix has been around for 3 months but hasn't been merged. <hyperair> why?! <maxriskfactor> who is the dev for notify-osd? <maxriskfactor> means dev-team? <hyperair> macslow <hyperair> but he isn't around <maxriskfactor> yes, the patch is here <maxriskfactor> http://launchpadlibrarian.net/34093436/notify-osd-fontfloaters.diff <hyperair> my diff's smaller. <hyperair> it's committed to a bzr branch <hyperair> but not merged <hyperair> and not released <maxriskfactor> bad bad.. <maxriskfactor> hyperair, when was macslow last seen? <hyperair> 2 days ago <maxriskfactor> he is a canonical dev or a volunteer? <hyperair> i think the former <vish> canonical employee ;) <vish> hyperair: last i heard macslow was out of notify-osd mode :( <maxriskfactor> then is he AWOL? he should be available since notify-osd is such a high-priority project <hyperair> vish: it's not unmaintained is it? <vish> hyperair: they probably have him doing some other ayatana stuff... my guess is it is a bit unmaintained :( * hyperair sighs * maxriskfactor thinks sabdfl should look into this matter <maxriskfactor> reason being he is heavily interested in usability project <vish> maxriskfactor: it is most probably sabdfl who has macslow doing other stuff ;p <hyperair> vish: you sure have a wide range of nicknames don't you <vish> hyperair: just updated nick recently... :) <hyperair> heh <maxriskfactor> now the situation is that patches and fixed branches are there. <maxriskfactor> but people to review and merge them are missing * hyperair nods <hyperair> well we can poke macslow when he returns * vish checks notify-osd changelog <vish> rather lp rev <vish> hyperair: nothing since a very long time :( > https://code.launchpad.net/~notify-osd-developers/notify-osd/main <hyperair> aye <maxriskfactor> vish, 8 days since lats change <vish> maxriskfactor: huh? it was oct 2009 ;p <maxriskfactor> vish, wait. lemme check <maxriskfactor> vish, oops. so so so long <maxriskfactor> it looks abandoned <vish> maxriskfactor: you could ask on the ayatana mailing list if notify-osd development has been abandoned <maxriskfactor> its just my thinking that it is abandoned <maxriskfactor> vish, since if a project dev is slow, it should still accept patches <maxriskfactor> even if the devs dont have time <maxriskfactor> vish, ^ <vish> maxriskfactor: yup , but even patches need to be reviewed :) that takes time too... I would really suggest if you can bring this up in the ML, if there is anyone else who can review your patch and merge <maxriskfactor> vish, anyway patches arnt supposed to be big <maxriskfactor> big patches are usually not taken much care <maxriskfactor> vish, if those patches are small, then it can be easily reviewed and taken care of #ayatana 2010-01-18 <mccann> hey tedg around? <tedg> mccann: Yup. <tedg> mccann: How are you today? <mccann> not bad - weather sucks <mccann> you? <tedg> Weather is finally getting good again, so I'm thrilled :) <mccann> it probably isn't sleeting where you are <tedg> No, I really can't complain. The worth thing I could complain about is a little windy :) <mccann> so I'm trying to catch up on all this notification spec stuff on xdg list etc <mccann> I've seen mentions of 0.10 version of the spec <mccann> do you have any idea where that is? <mccann> galago doesn't have it and chip doesn't really know <tedg> Ah, so libnotify like notification. Or NotificationItem? * tedg loves the naming. <mccann> um libnotify i guess <tedg> Hmm, I thought that spec went 1.0 <mccann> for example http://patches.ubuntu.com/libn/libnotify/libnotify_0.4.5-1ubuntu1.patch <mccann> says 0.10 <mccann> oh is there a 1.0? <mccann> galago only has 0.9 <tedg> Yeah, hmm, and the notify-osd page links to Galago too. * mccann is confused <tedg> Sorry, I thought there'd be a link on the notify-osd page. mpt is usually really good about linking all that stuff. <mccann> well maybe he's having the same problems finding it that I am <tedg> I think everyone I could ping who would know is either European or off for MLK day :( <tedg> If I remember right, the only changes in 0.10 were cleanups for things like the mark up. <tedg> I believe there were some holes in the definition of that where it actually wouldn't work with Pango. <tedg> I think it also added a different icon data format that the KDE guys were interested in as the current one was basically a GdkPixbuf dump. <tedg> Err, it seems like this WAS the link: http://people.canonical.com/~agateau/notifications-0.10/spec/ <mccann> gone <mccann> darn <tedg> Here, this works: http://people.canonical.com/~agateau/notifications-1.1/spec/ <mccann> oh <mccann> ! * tedg had to find that with SSH :( <mccann> YAY <mccann> thanks <tedg> No problem. Sorry it was so difficult. <mccann> google did not help at all <mccann> bad google <mccann> should have tried bing <tedg> Heh, it would have just taken you to MSDN as that's what you REALLY want :) <tedg> mccann: BTW, I think I know what you guys are thinking about doing with the notifications spec in shell with the notification bar. <tedg> And we looked at that a lot for the messaging menu. I'm not sure it'll work. <tedg> Not because of anything spec related, but because of how people are using libnotify. <mccann> tedg: I'm trying to stay out of the specifics :) <mccann> danw has been leading that <tedg> Heh, I understand. But the apps issue is really huge. <mccann> which issue is that? <tedg> That's why we went ahead and did the libindicate work. <tedg> The fact that the apps drop the notifications. They don't track montgomeryrobert@example.net. <tedg> But then they expect events. So you'll have to synthesize some of them. <tedg> I'm not saying it's impossible, but it'll be a PITA. <mccann> oh i'm certain of that part <mccann> :) * tedg feels for danw <mccann> for now I'd settle for having one version of the spec <mccann> and one copy of libnotify <mccann> right now there are way too many different expectations <mccann> anyway I'm still trying to get caught up on what's going on <tedg> Yes, that is true. <tedg> Anyway. I think there's only a couple of changes you guys would need in libindicate to make your interaction work. <tedg> I'd be happy to make those. <tedg> And someday, I'll try to document things and get it to XDG. :-/ * tedg needs more time in the day. <mccann> if you want to join #gnome-shell and talk to danw directly that'd be cool <mccann> i don't have too much to offer to the conversation yet <tedg> I'm about to go make dinner here in a few, so I can't talk for too long. <tedg> So, I'll try to do that tomorrow. <tedg> I'm guessing he's also off today? <mccann> i just mean anytime <mccann> we didn't get the day off today <mccann> but he usually heads out around now so yeah tomorrow would be fine <tedg> Really? That's odd. I thought MLK day was pretty universal. <tedg> Must be an East Coast thing. * tedg has never lived on the East Coast. <mccann> some do some don't <mccann> hey what type of bots do you guys use here? <mccann> i'm wondering if i should set one up on gimpnet <mccann> don't know much about them <tedg> I have no clue. I know if I do something like bug 1 I think it picks that up. <ubot4> tedg: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1 (Not reporting large bug) <tedg> sf 23434 <tedg> Heh, nope :) <tedg> I think there's a #ubuntu-irc channel, and they manage all the Ubuntu related channel. They're the IRC jocks :) <mccann> ah ha <mccann> google wins this time <mccann> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/Bots <tedg> Wow, crazy. All kinds of commands. <tedg> Anyway, heading out. Have a good evening! #ayatana 2010-01-19 <magcius> What exactly did Ubuntu patch for freetype2, fontconfig, etc? #ayatana 2010-01-20 <lamalex> kenvandine: how do i enable the xchat indicator? <lamalex> kenvandine: got it, that rules that i jumps to the channel! <lamalex> nice work <lamalex> hmm can I hide the xchat panel icon? <magcius> bratsche, good work on the Application Indicators! <kenvandine> lamalex, you might need to unload that plugin <kenvandine> lamalex, xchat or xchat-gnome? #ayatana 2010-01-21 <maxriskfactor> RAOF, any problems with connection? <vish> djsiegel: hi... reminding you again about > Bug #388949 <ubot4> Launchpad bug 388949 in hundredpapercuts "'Clean Up by Name' -> 'Arrange by Name'" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/388949 <djsiegel> vish: hey let me see <vish> djsiegel: you just need to send mail to the nautilus mailing list , as per upstream comments <djsiegel> I think they want a mail to gnome-doc list <vish> also cc to the docs, for the string change <vish> djsiegel: also , maxriskfactor has been doing some work on papercuts.. you can steer him as well ;) <djsiegel> vish: what has be been up to? <vish> djsiegel: he has submitted patches on a few bugs.. <maxriskfactor> djsiegel, one of them is opening of the gnome-appearance opening up when you set a wallpaper <vish> djsiegel: ex: Bug 383404 <ubot4> Launchpad bug 383404 in network-manager "networkmanager passive notification wording needs to be changed" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/383404 <vish> maxriskfactor: what was the other one? <maxriskfactor> djsiegel, another is this https://bugs.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/+bug/503061 <ubot4> Launchpad bug 503061 in hundredpapercuts ""Change desktop background" dialog shows up when using "Set as desktop wallpaper" option in image viewer" [Low,Triaged] <maxriskfactor> vish, djsiegel these are those two on which I worked properly... <maxriskfactor> and the gnome-appearance once, I tried and tested it properly <vish> maxriskfactor: the EOG change just removing the function is not very ideal <maxriskfactor> vish, I know, it was just as required by the papercut :) <maxriskfactor> vish: secondly, I told you why it doesnt matter much. You can't revert back to the old wallpaper so easily <vish> maxriskfactor: there was another bug , with a string change [iirc it needs a bit of change too] <maxriskfactor> lemme check <djsiegel> vish: ok, sent <vish> djsiegel: phew... finally ;) thanks <maxriskfactor> vish, djsiegel: this one is the third https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/indicator-session/+bug/495127 <ubot4> Launchpad bug 495127 in hundredpapercuts "Shutdown/restart dialogs is unlcear about whether people should wait" [High,Triaged] <vish> maxriskfactor: ah , right , that one also needs to be changed as per the wiki link... beuno , right? <beuno> vish, yes, that's right <maxriskfactor> vish, I changed it as per the wiki link IIRC <vish> hmm , lemme check again <vish> beuno: if wording is ok , can you subscribe the sponsors ? <vish> or is it hosted in bzr? wouldnt a merge be better? <beuno> tedg, could you look at the patch? <beuno> vish, I think you can do a proposal against hte package <beuno> but tedg is the upstream for that AFAIK <vish> yeah * tedg is looking * vish wonders when tedg will show love for inkscape ;) <maxriskfactor> vish, I am working on other code, just ping me if I am needed :) <tedg> I don't think that we should have a string with two carriage returns it. They should really be separate text boxes. <tedg> Primary text and secondary text. <vish> maxriskfactor: ^^ <maxriskfactor> vish, Fine. <maxriskfactor> tedg, you mean the summary and body section as per the manual? http://library.gnome.org/devel/libnotify/0.4/NotifyNotification.html#notify-notification-new <tedg> maxriskfactor: No, more like: http://library.gnome.org/devel/gtk/stable/GtkMessageDialog.html <vish> tedg: the indicator application icons... do they have a name yet? <maxriskfactor> tedg, ahh. Sorry I pointed to the wrong place <tedg> vish: I don't know, that seems like a good name for them to me :) <vish> ;) <maxriskfactor> tedg, I am back to work on it. Thanks for the feedback :) #ayatana 2010-01-22 <vish> ScottK: could you have a look at Bug 431900 ? <ubot4> Launchpad bug 431900 in kdebase-runtime "Khelpcenter4 comes with outdated documentation" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/431900 <ScottK> It's known and being worked on. It's not a papercut <vish> thanks.. <vish> ScottK: could you comment that on the bug ? :) <ScottK> Busy with $WORK. Feel free to copy/paste what I said here. <vish> ScottK: k.. #ayatana 2010-01-23 * hyperair kicks notify-osd <hyperair> stop leaking my memory damnit >_> <djsiegel> MDC1: ping <MDC1> djsiegel, pong <djsiegel> MDC1: hey I was wondering if you could walk me through patching gedit <djsiegel> I imagine there's a process that goes like this: <MDC1> i could give it a try, sure :) <djsiegel> 1. apt-get source gedit <djsiegel> 2. build it <djsiegel> 3. edit some source files <djsiegel> 4. build and run to see if change is correct <djsiegel> 5. if correct, generate patch and post to bug report <MDC1> 1. get source, 2. edit, 3. build <djsiegel> but I am not sure which incantations to use <djsiegel> ah, so you are going directly to upstream source? <djsiegel> I was hoping to patch against what I get with apt <MDC1> depends on the problem <djsiegel> uh oh <djsiegel> great <djsiegel> gtg <djsiegel> sorry <MDC1> haha <MDC1> np <djsiegel> another time <MDC1> cu #ayatana 2010-01-24 <seiflotfy> kenvandine, there #ayatana 2010-01-25 <mccann> hi does agateau hang out around here? <mdc_laptop> anyone know if Matthew McGowan is on irc somewhere? #ayatana 2010-01-26 <mbudde> tedg: Nice session! Just want to hear if you have seen bug #510169? <ubot4> Launchpad bug 510169 in indicator-application "Segfault when setting status second time" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/510169 <tedg> mbudde: Hmm, I haven't seen that one... but one similar. <tedg> mbudde: We fixed a C one on RB like that. <tedg> mbudde: Have you tried with 0.0.10? <mbudde> tedg: no, I haven't.. does the script I attached crash for you? <tedg> mbudde: Doesn't crash. I get a syntax error. <mbudde> tedg: hmm... and 0.0.10 isn't built for karmic yet... <tedg> Ah! Set off the bat signal! kenvandine come save us! <tedg> :) <mbudde> It's missing a build dependency apparently :/ <djsiegel> ok vish <djsiegel> we need 5 more f-spot papercuts <seg|ars> djsiegel: check out the new reply UI in gwibber: http://s3.amazonaws.com/scrnshots.com/screenshots/225348/gwibber-reply-barpng <seg|ars> what do you think? <djsiegel> seg|ars: please tell me you leave out the "as USERNAME" when I have one account? :) <djsiegel> very cool dude <seg|ars> that's a really good idea. I'll add it to my list. :-) <jcastro> geordi's not going to tweet you back dude. #ayatana 2010-01-27 <SiDi> DanRabbit1: hello, are you around? * SiDi waves at MacSlow|break <DanRabbit1> SiDi: yep, I'm here <SiDi> Mind if i Pm you? <DanRabbit1> SiDi: no problem #ayatana 2010-01-28 <magcius> Anybody here? Is there a way to remove an icon when updating a notification using pynotify? Passing None doesn't work. #ayatana 2010-01-29 <doctormo_> Does anyone know if mpt is usually on irc? <ivanka> doctormo_: he is. he is on holiday now though <ivanka> doctormo_: hi! <ivanka> doctormo_: anything I can help with? <doctormo_> ivanka: Only if you would like to help :-) <doctormo_> Him being on holiday explains his brief comment on my blog, then. I hope he's having a good time. <ivanka> doctormo_: depends what it is you want help with :-) <doctormo> ivanka: So did you see the demonstration video yesterday on my blog? http://doctormo.wordpress.com/2010/01/27/ground-control-demonstration/ <doctormo> ivanka: I'm thinking of removing the extended non-bold descriptions and just having the bold parts. Your thoughts? <ivanka> hang on - not seen it <ivanka> I have a montgomeryrobert@example.net (in 20 minutes) have I got time to watch and comment before then? <doctormo> ivanka: yes, it's 9mins <ivanka> doctormo: (montgomeryrobert@example.net) quick question: how did you record your demo? * ivanka goes back to the video <doctormo> ivanka: gtk-mydesktop + cheese <doctormo> gtk-recordmydesktop* <ivanka> doctormo: did you find it slows down your machine? <doctormo> It wasn't apparent at the time, but there are parts in the recording where you can see the machine was working hard. <ivanka> doctormo: ok, just curious <ivanka> doctormo: have thoughts, well actually, questions - call starting now though <doctormo> ok <ivanka> doctormo: nice demo! <doctormo> ivanka: thanks, I'm looking forward to hearing you rthoughts <ivanka> doctormo: hi again. Who is your target audience for this? <doctormo> ivanka: Course writers, none technical people. <ivanka> doctormo: I should install it so I get a better sense of the full experience <doctormo> ivanka: Sure, I'm trying to make it better now, I'm figuring out where to put the more verbose descriptions of the bars. <ivanka> doctormo: is there a particular reason why you are focussing on that? <ivanka> doctormo: you there? <doctormo> Sorry, went for lunch <ivanka1> doctormo: hi <doctormo> hey ivanka1 <doctormo> ivanka1: I went to lunch before, sorry <ivanka1> hmm - wonder why I am ivanka1 <ivanka1> anyway <ivanka1> that's ok - I have installed Ground Control <ivanka1> I like your big buttons <ivanka1> doctormo: I have some feedback <doctormo> great <ivanka1> doctormo: did you get round to answering why you focussed on those labels? have you had specific feedback? <doctormo> ivanka1: It's a technical issue, if the descriptions are too big and the window too small, then the text is cropped, which isn't desirable. <ivanka1> doctormo: 1) Simple thing: My launchpad is authenticated, I see my picture and the buttons offer me <logoff> or <close>. Both seem like negative actions. Can the be an obvious 'Get going with ground control' type thing? <ivanka1> I mean 'can there' not 'can the' <ivanka1> doctormo: btw, I am on the train so, if I disappear, forgive me, I will have to catch you another day <ivanka1> doctormo: ah, technical issues are annoying. Can the text not wrap? <doctormo> ivanka1: It can only wrap 2/3 fixed position which doesn't respond to window resizes. <ivanka1> doctormo: ok...am thinking about it. <ivanka1> doctormo: any thoughts on the <logoff><close> <doctormo> ivanka1: So, I have the choice of using an gnome label and replace gtk-close with gtk-ok, gtk-next or gtk-refresh. Or use my own custom label for the button. <ivanka1> doctormo: what about 'start' as a custom label? <ivanka1> doctormo: gtk-next might be ok too <doctormo> ivanka1: We also have gtk-forward and gtk-apply which might work too. <doctormo> The advantage is that a standard label will be translated into every language gnome is. <ivanka1> doctormo: yes - anything which reflects a positive action <ivanka1> doctormo: that is a worthwhile advantage <doctormo> OK, fixed to gtk-apply <ivanka1> doctormo: cool. <ivanka1> doctormo: now, remembering that I
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