#launchpad-meeting 2006-10-02 <ddaa> _thumper_: we you informed that the bazaar meeting has been postponed by 24h <_thumper_> yep <ddaa> for reason of today being a holiday in relevant parts of .au <_thumper_> I think poolie included me in the emails <ddaa> good <ddaa> _thumper_: so, what are you up to? <_thumper_> ddaa, going through the new starter wiki page <_thumper_> adding myself to the appropriate pages <_thumper_> mailing lists et al <ddaa> The one about updating a few pages on wiki.canonical.com etc.? <SteveA> there's also the "canonical admin" system for managing vacation time and expenses etc. <_thumper_> I don't seem to have a login to that yet <SteveA> one day, we'll have a cohesive system for these things... <SteveA> ask clan about that <_thumper_> clan? <ddaa> Claire Newman <_thumper_> ok <ddaa> give or take one letter in the last name <_thumper_> I'm slightly miffed this morning as my older laptop's backlight has just gone futt <SteveA> replaceable? <_thumper_> yeah, but the question is "is it worth replacing" <_thumper_> it isn't my primary laptop now as it is *heavy* <_thumper_> I could just run it through an external monitor <ddaa> _thumper_: I know you are eyeing one of those shiny dual core lappies :) <_thumper_> got one :-) <_thumper_> vaio sz2xp <ddaa> I promised myself I bought the next lappy from one of those linux-friendly manufacturers <ddaa> anyway... <ddaa> Jumping through all hoops of the NewStaffTasks is going to take a little while <ddaa> esp. setting up the jabber client that nobody uses <SteveA> I use jabber with people <_thumper_> I have MSN and yahoo IM alreaddy <ddaa> strike that, the jabber client that I should be using <ddaa> if only jabber.org was halfway reliable <SteveA> I'm also on msn and yahoo <SteveA> but not so much for work <_thumper_> if jabber is actually used, I should go and create one <SteveA> _thumper_: rhonda96@example.net for MSN and kaguanas for yahoo <ddaa> After that, there is probably an half out-of-date page about how to set-up Launchpad development environment somewhere on launchpad.canonical.com <SteveA> ddaa: you're sounding very negative today <SteveA> or maybe that's cynical <SteveA> have a smoke and a coffee, perhaps? <ddaa> SteveA: bah, got some adversity at home, but I guess that should not affect my work <SteveA> ping me later if you want to have a private rant about it ;-) <ddaa> SteveA: the truth is, I noticed how many references to Arch stuff and old import stuff there are still on the wiki.canonical.com <_thumper_> since launchpad is backed by a real db, do dev versions need postgresql too? <_thumper_> as opposed to zodb which is easy :) <ddaa> yes <ddaa> the database setup instructions are quite up to date on the other hand <ddaa> which is good because it's not easy to guess <SteveA> on your development machine, you're running a miniature version of the launchpad we run in production <_thumper_> I'll do all that on the laptop as this box is going to be in a container for two months <SteveA> I'm leaving non-laptops non-macminis here in lithuania <SteveA> I don't believe they'll still work on the other side of the trip to amsterdam <ddaa> which means that between launchpad, bzr and the rest, you need about 1GB RAM to work comfortably <_thumper_> lappie has 1G <ddaa> same here <_thumper_> btw, rhonda96@example.net on MSN, timbo_kiwi on yahoo <_thumper_> since I'm not technically working on bzr source, is the dapper package suitable? <ddaa> _thumper_: there's some custom source we should be using, so when the launchpad devs are asked to dogfood some rc package you get it automatically. <ddaa> but most of the time, the policy is to use the package in the current released ubuntu <ddaa> from my apt/sources.list <ddaa> # testing bzr for launchpad devos <ddaa> deb http://bazaar-vcs.org/releases/debs/scratchy/ ./ <_thumper_> ok, I'll add that in <ddaa> Most of the instructions for Launchpad dev setup should be there <ddaa> https://launchpad.canonical.com/FrontPage?action=fullsearch&context=180&value=setup&titlesearch=Titles <ddaa> Ignore "AutoBuildSlaveSetup" <_thumper_> auth? <ddaa> cannot tell you here <ddaa> and actually, I'm looking it up :) <_thumper_> email? <SteveA> I'll email it <_thumper_> ok <_thumper_> probably one of the most stressful things at the moment is moving my domains <_thumper_> it is the one that I collect all my mail from <ddaa> SteveA: seriously, I think warning that https://launchpad.canonical.com/RocketFuelSetup is half out of date is not being negative. It's being informative. <_thumper_> how badly out of date is it? <_thumper_> usable? <SteveA> try going though it <SteveA> anything that doesn't work, ask here <_thumper_> ok <ddaa> Like, do not try to contact James Blackwell, he left the company several months ago <SteveA> we'll help, and you can update the page as you go <_thumper_> is there a mailing list I should partake in? <ddaa> rhonda96@example.net <ddaa> primary list for all development discussion, restricted to company members <ddaa> rhonda96@example.net <SteveA> you should be on: <ddaa> public discussion of launchpad <SteveA> launchpad, launchpad-users, allhands, warthogs <_thumper_> I've done allhands and warthogs so far <_thumper_> also got on bazaar-ng some time ago (few weeks) <_thumper_> and kubuntu-users <_thumper_> and ubuntu-users I think <_thumper_> I don't read them all though <ddaa> hu... your probably do not want to stay on ubuntu-users <_thumper_> the -users one that is <_thumper_> something interesting every now an then... <ddaa> it's very high traffic, and mostly not relevant to launchpad development <_thumper_> I'm not on it for work purposes :) <ddaa> sure, but then it's a personal choice :) <ddaa> eventually, you may want to subscribe to launchpad-bugs, but you'll need to set up quite a few mail filters to keep it useful <_thumper_> I think I have about 30 filters running already <ddaa> There is a X-Launchpad-Bug header in all mail sent by the launchpad bug tracking system <ddaa> that allows you to sort bugspam by product <_thumper_> handy <ddaa> so I actually only look at bugspam about launchpad and launcphad-bazaar products <ddaa> all the rest, the filter marks as "read" and I keep archived just in case <_thumper_> high volume? <ddaa> yes <ddaa> all the launchpad devs and users generate quite a bit of bug activity <ddaa> need to answer the morning call of nature now, and then phone with mpt about the launchpad 1.0 UI changes for code.launchpad.net pages <ddaa> back in ~ 1 hour I think <_thumper_> np * _thumper_ fetching more coffee <_thumper_> i'm guessing that allhands and warthogs have to be authorised by someone as I don't have acceptance emails from them yet <ddaa> yup <ddaa> these are restricted lists and need moderator approval <_thumper_> thought as much <ddaa> BTW, there is a smtp.canonical.com that forwards only emails from canonical.com and ubuntu.com <ddaa> quite fast and reliable <_thumper_> could be useful <ddaa> it actually made people start using their @canonical.com email addresses :) <ddaa> well, some people were using them before, but I have seen a strong rise in usage since the smtp was put in place <ddaa> You'll find about it in the allhands archive <_thumper_> ah, where are those mail archives> <ddaa> allhands is at https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/allhands <ddaa> you'll need your ML password of course to access the archive <_thumper_> which I don't have yet :) * ddaa looks for his own <_thumper_> don't worry, not too bothered yet <ddaa> how familiar with bzr are you, at the moment? <_thumper_> not <_thumper_> been reading the website docs from time to time <ddaa> okay, so about RocketFuelSetup <ddaa> some remarks to help you avoid wrong tracks <_thumper_> got the dependencies installed <ddaa> * JamesBlackwell not here anymore <ddaa> * references to chinstrap should be replaced by devpad <ddaa> * The sample bazaar.conf might be obsolete, in particular "check_signatures=require" used to mean "always sign revisions" (yes, it was a bug) <ddaa> The stuff about ~/.arch-params is cruft, as it was the baz (GNU Arch) config stuff <_thumper_> ok <_thumper_> looks like I need to organise the login to devpad through ssh <ddaa> mh <ddaa> Host devpad devpad.canonical.com <ddaa> HostName devpad.canonical.com <ddaa> ProxyCommand ssh chinstrap.ubuntu.com nc -q0 %h %p <ddaa> in your ~/.ssh/config <ddaa> chinstrap is still the ssh proxy for all DC access <_thumper_> ok <ddaa> the rocketfuel-get script on that page appears mostly up to date <ddaa> but I do not use it, since it overrides bzr locking and thus can lead to pain <ddaa> YMMV here, depending on connectivity and the sort of work your are doing, but here is what I do <ddaa> I have a mirror of rocketfuel-built in ~/canonical/upstream-launcphad <ddaa> that I update with a trivial rsync script <ddaa> manually <_thumper_> ok <ddaa> Then I have on bzr repository for each branch in there (that is the launchpad branch, and all the branches in ./sourcecode) <_thumper_> what technically is rocketfuel? <ddaa> each repository contains a branch, whose parent is the corresponding branch in rocketfuel-built <ddaa> so I do "bzr pull" to pull the rocketfuel data into those repos <ddaa> then when I create a new work branch, I make it as a branch in this repo, and I push with bzr to devpad. <ddaa> Initially, you will want to prime your bzr repositories locally on devpad * _thumper_ needs to read up more on bzr <ddaa> so you do not have to upload all of rockefuel again <_thumper_> I'm sure all this will make more sense soon <ddaa> rocketfuel, technically, is the name of launchpad trunk branch <ddaa> only PQM can commit to that branch <_thumper_> PQM? <ddaa> Painful Quibble Master <ddaa> hu <ddaa> Patch Queue Monitor <_thumper_> ok <ddaa> That's an email-driven bot that you use to commit to trunk branches in launchpad development <ddaa> So, you send it a gpg-signed email message (using the bzr pqm-submit plugin) <ddaa> asking to merge one of your branches into the pqm-managed trunk <ddaa> it gets a checkout of the trunk, merge from your feature branch found on devpad <ddaa> bails out if there is any merge conflict <ddaa> runs the FULL GODDAMN test suite <ddaa> bails out and if it there is any failure <ddaa> then commit the merge <_thumper_> and only authorised people can use the bot? <ddaa> normally, when it baills out it should send you an email with some log that can be useful for understanding what failed <ddaa> yes, lifeless (Robert Collins) is the pqm admin, and gives people the right to merge into this or that branch <ddaa> you should probably start with the right to commit on launchpad and cscvs <ddaa> you want to look at http://pqm.launchpad.net/ from time to time <ddaa> to see where your merge requests are in the queue <ddaa> occasionally, the test suite fails in pqm in a way you cannot easily reproduce locally * _thumper_ head hurts already <ddaa> and sometimes, the test suite on pqm just hangs (there are timing bugs that can lead to that) <_thumper_> hmm, not good <ddaa> when the latter happens, you need to ask an admin to SIGINT pqm, then you need to figure out what causes the hang, because when this shit starts happening that pretty much puts development to a halt, and that makes everybody very grumpy <ddaa> luckily, it does not happen that often anymore <ddaa> but no need to worry about that right now <ddaa> just remember that the launchpad test suite runtime is about 45mins on pqm <ddaa> okay, the PQMSetup page is completely obsolete <ddaa> thanks to the bzr-pqm plugin, that makes things quite simpler <ddaa> The DatabaseSetup page should be entirely up to date <ddaa> if you have any problem with that, complain <_thumper_> sure <_thumper_> gotta get gpg keys sorted <ddaa> The SodiumSetup page is mostly not relevant to you (since it's mostly about migrating from chinstrap), but it has an interesting bit at the end about priming up repositories and the location of all trunk branches. <ddaa> I'll walk you through the pqm-submit things when you first have something to commit, probably next week <_thumper_> ok <ddaa> Finding you way around until you have a working local launchpad should keep you busy for a little while. Ask me if you have any question whatsoever. <_thumper_> for the gpg keys, do you use rsa or other? <_thumper_> or does it not matter? <ddaa> whatever the gpg defaults are is considered good enough at any given time <_thumper_> ok <ddaa> but you are free to use something stronger if you wish <ddaa> note that working at canonical can very quickly push your key in the top 2k <ddaa> because most are quite densely cross-signed, and quite a few canonical folks (or ex-canonical, like lamont) are gpg celebrities. <SteveA> how's all the setup going? <SteveA> I wouldn't bother with any of the rocketfuel-get stuff anymore <_thumper_> ok, don't entirely understand how that works, but I guess I don't have to care yet <SteveA> things are easy enough and fast enough when you use repositories <SteveA> and will improve more when we get the smartserver on devpad <ddaa> SteveA told me he wants to keep an "annoying user" posture towards bzr, so if he tells you that repositories are good enough, you can trust him. <ddaa> Unlike me, I am an unashamed bzr fanboy. <_thumper_> I have just used the dapper repositories for launchpad dependancies <jamesh> _thumper_: https://launchpad.canonical.com/WorkingWithSharedRepositories <- this describes the workflow I use to hack on Launchpad <jamesh> using a shared repository <_thumper_> jamesh, thanks <SteveA> hi james. happy labour day. <ddaa> I have been trying to confuse _thumper_ with lots of more-or-less relevant information. I think I did a pretty good job of it :) <jamesh> SteveA: Queen's Birthday for me, actually <jamesh> Labour Day in NSW <jamesh> ddaa: btw, is importd likely to handle the SVN URL I entered here? https://launchpad.net/products/viewvc/trunk <jamesh> it includes the userinfo needed to connect <ddaa> jamesh: it does not do anything fancy with urls, just hand them over as is to bzrlib <ddaa> I guess that URL might work <jamesh> you mean subversion? <ddaa> s/bzrlib/libsvn/ <ddaa> ETOOMANYTLAS <ddaa> jamesh: if you want some quick feedback, I can do a round of imports herding right now <jamesh> ddaa: if you're busy with other stuff, then I can wait <ddaa> I've not yet had time to get myself busy today. But I'm looking forwards to diving into cscvs coding ASAP. <ddaa> So we might actually have a more useful svn import code by the end of the week. <jamesh> we should have the improved +source form up for the next rollout <jamesh> I didn't include the removal of the cvsbranch entry yet -- the diff was getting a bit large, so will do that separately <ddaa> okay that's great <_thumper_> ok, I'm new to gpg... does any one know how I can keep keys on both laptop and desktop? <_thumper_> I'm assuming export only exports public bit <ddaa> rsyncing the ~/.gnupg over works well :) <ddaa> and that saves going nuts over gpg command line options <_thumper_> ok <ddaa> though I guess that gpg zealots will tell you that you should never do that, etc. <_thumper_> well I'm not a zealot and rsync seems ok over my private lan :) <ddaa> jamesh: it didn't go through <ddaa> pysvn._pysvn.ClientError: callback_get_login required <ddaa> though, I can probably get it to work by manually storing the credentials <ddaa> handling authenticated svn should probably be a wishlist or low priority bug <ddaa> though it's rare enough that's it's okay to deal with it manually <ddaa> more troublesome is handling https, as it currently need manual operation to approve the certificate <jamesh> ddaa: thanks for checking. It seems that the tigris.org SVN always requires auth (even if it to auth as the guest user) <ddaa> jamesh: credentials fixed <ddaa> _thumper_: got it at last (email about the smtp relay server) https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/private/allhands/2006-August/000181.html <_thumper_> ddaa, thanks, I'll check it out once I'm technically on allhands * _thumper_ lunch <_thumper_> from the dapper repositories I have bzr 0.8.2 <_thumper_> is that sufficient? <_thumper_> I've notices that the bzr release is somewhat later <_thumper_> jamesh: I'm working through your info on working with shared repositories <_thumper_> what is needed after the bzr init-repo commands? <ddaa> _thumper_: you should add the sources.list line I gave before <ddaa> here I have bzr 0.10 <ddaa> that features some very significant performance improvements <ddaa> and also helps API issues with plugins <ddaa> # testing bzr for launchpad devos <ddaa> deb http://bazaar-vcs.org/releases/debs/scratchy/ ./ <ddaa> once you have done init-repo, you have an empty repository <ddaa> if you create a branch in it, it will use the repository for history storage <ddaa> I think branches in a repo do not have a working tree by default too <ddaa> that helps saving disk space, and speeds up bzr pull for large trees like launchpad <_thumper_> that deb line didn't show updates :( <ddaa> _thumper_: how familiar are you with debian-based systems <_thumper_> s'ok, typo <_thumper_> so what is the simplest way to get a copy of the trunk source for lp? <ddaa> so, what you probably want to start with, is to create a repository on sodium for launcphad, and branch rocketfuel in it. Then make a tarball of it and download it to your workstation <_thumper_> what's sodium? canonical box? <ddaa> it's devpad <ddaa> devpad is an alias to sodium <ddaa> we should use devpad everywhere in config files so the host can be changed quickly if needs arise without breaking configs <ddaa> the little repository gymnastic will allow you to upload your new launchpad branches with only minimal data transfer. <_thumper_> still waiting for login and email from canonical guys <ddaa> mh <ddaa> _thumper_: -> #canonical-sysadmin <ddaa> that's the place to harass sysadmins when you really want to <ddaa> did you file a RT about having an account on devpad? <ddaa> _thumper_: the simplest way to get launchpad code would be "bzr get sftp://devpad/home/warthogs/archives/rocketfuel/launchpad" <ddaa> but it's going to take quite a long time, because launchpad is huge <jamesh> _thumper_: the way a lot of people work is to rsync a copy of the "rocketfuel-built" tree, which includes Launchpad plus a number of its dependencies that we maintain branches of (sqlobject, zope, etc) <jamesh> then pull from that tree locally <_thumper_> jamesh, rsync from devpad? <jamesh> yeah <_thumper_> sounds strange (from a svn bod) <jamesh> _thumper_: if I'm maintaining 3 or 4 development branches, it means I only need to pay the network latency once to update each of them <_thumper_> how much space does the drocketfuel-built take? <jamesh> 552MB currently <_thumper_> ddaa, yes RTs submitted <ddaa> jamesh: I usually make a tarball for the initial transfer. I find it's faster than rsync for priming the state. <ddaa> then rsync for incremental updates <jamesh> ddaa: how does a tarball compare with "scp -R"? <jamesh> or maybe -r <ddaa> No figure at hand, maybe 1.5x or 2x as fast. But it's probably a matter of latency. <ddaa> _thumper_: well, until the accounts are sorted, I do not see a whole lot you could do. <ddaa> maybe just browse through the canonical and launchpad wikis <_thumper_> ddaa, reading docs <_thumper_> trying to get my head around how bzr works :) <ddaa> and do not forget to read wiki.canonical.com/Quotes! <_thumper_> seen some of that <ddaa> _thumper_: feel free to ask stupid questions in #bzr <_thumper_> ok <ddaa> it's probably about time for the transatlantic folks to get up by now <_thumper_> although I think I'll read first so I don't look too stupid <jamesh> _thumper_: look on the bright side: you could have joined the company while we were still using arch <_thumper_> jamesh, that was bad was it? <jamesh> _thumper_: bazaar is a lot nicer. <jamesh> there are some operations that arch was very slow at (or needed lots of disk and memory to do at reasonable speeds) <SteveA> arch also had a command line syntax that involved typing -- a lot <SteveA> so much so that people joked about adding a "--" key to their keyboards <jamesh> SteveA: look on the bright side: they could have used em dashes <ddaa> nope, tomlord does not believe in unicode <SteveA> _thumper_: so, where are you up to with getting set up? <jamesh> there is so much more punctuation to play with if you use unicode <jamesh> I would have thought he'd love it <ddaa> well, he'd love to replace unicode with his own NIH, actually <_thumper_> SteveA, sysadmins are setting up email and accounts <SteveA> ok, so you don't currently have access to the code <_thumper_> I have dependancies and 0.10 bzr on laptop <_thumper_> no, not yet <_thumper_> been reading the page from jamesh about shared repositories <SteveA> ok. we can sort that out by tarring up rocketfuel-built and putting it in a web-accessible place on devpad <_thumper_> and reading through database config for lp <SteveA> I'm making such a tarball now <SteveA> you'll be able to download it over http, and switch to using sftp later, when you have an account <_thumper_> ok <SteveA> 308MB <SteveA> once you have this, you'll have all the current revisions and history <SteveA> you can use that set of branches / trees directly <SteveA> or you can branch from them into your repositories <SteveA> and set things up as recommended by jamesh <_thumper_> ddaa, quick question: configuring command line mail command <ddaa> irrelevant <SteveA> um <ddaa> bzr-pqm does it all right for you <SteveA> it's needed if you're to use pqm <SteveA> ddaa: how does bzr-pqm send mail? <_thumper_> just looking the the commands: cat ~/.ssh/id_rsa.pub | gpg --clearsign | mail address_removed... <SteveA> so, you'll need to have that set up <ddaa> bzr-pqm does smtplib <SteveA> although you won't need it until you want to merge code into pqm yourself <ddaa> so it does not care the least about your command-line mail, it talks directly to the MTA <SteveA> I'd rather pqm accepted instruction via POST actually <_thumper_> and where does smtplib determine the MTA? <SteveA> at a total guess, I expect pqm-submit uses localhost by default <SteveA> and maybe has a config option for an alternative <ddaa> _thumper_: it's a config option of bzr-pqm, it defaults to localhost <_thumper_> I don't have a local MTA right now <ddaa> SteveA: score <SteveA> _thumper_: ever done any twisted programming? <_thumper_> got the book :) <SteveA> this need for a local MTA is the source of much woe <SteveA> I'm tempted to suggest you hack a POST url onto PQM that adds a command to its queue. But, to do that right so that it would be accepted upstream means talking it through with lifeless I think. <SteveA> So, I won't suggest that right now. <ddaa> SteveA: I think bzr-pqm could be easily modified to be able to provide login/passwd to the MTA, so it could use smtp.canonical.com <SteveA> login + password + email address <SteveA> that would be nice also <SteveA> and such a hack should be easily accepted upstream <SteveA> _thumper_: I like ddaa's suggestion, and it might actually be simpler than getting a local MTA set up properly in a way that will work for submitting pqm requests. <SteveA> and it also gets you looking at the code to a bzr plugin <SteveA> which is pertinent to your work <_thumper_> ah, yeah <_thumper_> alright <ddaa> (hint!) <jamesh> the bzr-pqm plugin can do TLS and SMTP auth <jamesh> so you could configure it to use the canonical.com SMTP server <ddaa> mh... mine must be out of date then :/ <jamesh> must be. <_thumper_> yay <jamesh> you need to put the smtp_server, smtp_username and smtp_password options in ~/.bazaar/bazaar.conf <SteveA> _thumper_: so, that error you got, was that from sending it to pqm? <_thumper_> SteveA, no it was trying to send my ssh pub key to admins <_thumper_> Couldn't do it from devpad (chinstrap, whatever) as I don't have my gpg stuff there <SteveA> ah <_thumper_> so attempting to get postfix working locally <SteveA> I usually use thunderbird + enigmail for gpg <_thumper_> shouldn't be too hard <SteveA> although I used to use mutt a lot <_thumper_> I use kontact on both laptop and server though <_thumper_> I'm not a gnome type person <SteveA> I have postfix set up to do auth smtp to a server I use <SteveA> so I can send you parts of config files if you need it <_thumper_> I think the default dapper bits are reasonable, but I'll check <SteveA> the issues are about what envelope address it's using <SteveA> because that should be routable if you're to receive bounces <SteveA> and whether your machine will be trying to send smtp directly, because that is blocked by many isps <SteveA> or will have the mail marked as spam <SteveA> depending on exactly what network you're on when you're sending the mail <ddaa> yeah, smtp.canonical.com is nice to dodge the blacklists at async <ddaa> async.com.br I mean <SteveA> the other thing I've done before is set up an ssh tunnel <SteveA> and sent mail down that <_thumper_> Hmm, didn't know that many isps blocked smtp <SteveA> well <_thumper_> although it makes sense <SteveA> mostly they don't block it but tunnel it <SteveA> through their own smtp servers <SteveA> but, many of these are blacklisted <SteveA> by other smtp servers <SteveA> so it's all a bit crap really <SteveA> by "tunnel it" I meant "transparently proxy it" <SteveA> and by "proxy" I mean "murder the original and send it in their own particular way" <ddaa> and for those who don't, their consumer IP ranges are often blacklisted <ddaa> mostly because they are rich in zombie systems, I guess <_thumper_> SteveA, ok, I'll take you up on those postfix config files :) <SteveA> https://devpad.canonical.com/~stevea/postfix/ <SteveA> there's also a sasl_passwd and sasl_passwd.db <SteveA> that, unsurprisingly, contain my credentials <_thumper_> ok, thanks <_thumper_> I hate mail, why doesn't it just work? <_thumper_> anyway sent the email from devpad in the end <_thumper_> so hopefully that should propagate appropriately <_thumper_> see y'all tomorrow #launchpad-meeting 2006-10-03 * _thumper_ getting coffee back in 3 min * _thumper_ back early <ddaa> Hello <_thumper_> morning <ddaa> looks like some of the .au tribe is out <_thumper_> yeah <_thumper_> speak of the devil <mpool> hi <mpool> welcome! <ddaa> okay, only lifeless missing can start <ddaa> MEETING STARTS <mpool> lifeless is excused, he worked yesterday and said he might miss this <ddaa> == Agenda == <ddaa> Next meeting 2006-10-09, 10:00-10:45 UTC. <ddaa> SteveA, _thumper_ and ddaa will be on a sprint in London. <ddaa> * roll call <ddaa> * production status <ddaa> * release finder <ddaa> * Python import <ddaa> * strategic plan <ddaa> * bzr-lp features <ddaa> * interesting bzr list threads <ddaa> * advertising <ddaa> * 1.0 targets <ddaa> * highlighted bugs <ddaa> * any other business <ddaa> If you wish to change the time of the meeting or add/remove agenda items, say "bzzzt!". <ddaa> If we are short on time, the "any other business" item will be automatically, dropped. So if you ''want'' to discuss something more, speak up now. <ddaa> I want to go back working on cscvs, so I plan to finish this meeting on time. No digressions today, please. <ddaa> == Roll call == <ddaa> No excuse was given. <ddaa> mpool said: mpool: lifeless is excused, he worked yesterday and said he might miss this <spiv> I'm here. <mpool> john's arriving early tomorrow so i'd like to keep this short if possible <ddaa> Anyway lifeless' attendance at this meeting is optional <mpool> here <_thumper_> here <jamesh> here <SteveA> hi <ddaa> okay, everybody here <ddaa> everybody happy with agenda <ddaa> roll it! <ddaa> == Prodution status == <ddaa> Nothing new to report on production. <ddaa> Well, importd rollout when okay, with only a couple of band-aid fixes <ddaa> which mere merged as trivial end of last week <ddaa> == Product release finder == <ddaa> * jamesh: report on PRF progress. <SteveA> what was the nature of the band-aid fies? <jamesh> I've got a branch up for review that fixes the remaining problems that need to be fixed before rollout <ddaa> SteveA: needed to restore some importd file which is actually imported by buildbot, and needed for what we do <jamesh> It is in my "jamesh/launchpad/bug-50569" branch, along with some other ProductSeries cleanups <jamesh> so hopefully we can turn it on after next rollout <ddaa> SteveA: and needed to tweak a method so the new source tree upload/download system does no cause a failure when the botslave data has been cleared out. <ddaa> jamesh: ack good... I'm itching to ask who's going to be responsible for this code once it is landed, but I think it would be off-topic for the meeting, so I'm not asking <ddaa> == Python import == <ddaa> * ddaa: status of Python blocker cscvs bug <ddaa> * jamesh: bzr-0.11 fixage for launchpad and cscvs <jamesh> lifeless was merging this today. <ddaa> I'm hacking on cscvs like the end of the world is coming, so I can actually have the new logic for svn changeset working by the end of the week <jamesh> I am not sure how that is going <lifeless> *is* metging this <jamesh> lifeless: okay. So barring any test failures we should have new bzr to play with <ddaa> lifeless: thank you for the love <ddaa> action: jamesh fix unexpected test failures ;) <ddaa> of course, there won't be any <ddaa> == strategic plan == <ddaa> * mpool owns that agenda item <jamesh> are you saying they would be expected test failures? <mpool> ddaa: thanks, i have comments from everyone, not all are integrated yet <mpool> but it's basically ticked off, you can remove the item <ddaa> mpool: ack <ddaa> jamesh: ya trying to cscvsfuse me <ddaa> == bzr-lp features == <ddaa> * mpool: report on bzr-lp features <ddaa> what's hot, what's next, what's cold, what's out without love? <mpool> well let's hear from everyone working on bzr-lp features, *quickly*? <mpool> jamesh? spiv? <SteveA> I'm interested in the latest on the smartserver and supermirror application of it <SteveA> and getting the smartserver running on devpad for launchpad developers to use <ddaa> SteveA: later this meeting <spiv> I'm working on smart server over HTTP -- the basic code in bzr has been written. <SteveA> and whether anything's happening about overlay repositories (sometime later) <jamesh> I merged the .bzr dir stuff into rocketfuel today, so tomorrow "bzr branch https://staging.launchpad.net/products/bzr" should do something sensible <spiv> I'm now looking at writing a WSGI application for it, so it can actually be deployed. <ddaa> moving on <ddaa> == Interesting bzr list threads == <ddaa> Do you guys have keywords for outstanding bzr threads from last week? <ddaa> I'm hopelessly behind bzr mail again, so pointers would be greatly appreciated <mpool> ddaa, remind me why this topic is in the meeting? <SteveA> so, david would like to be able to keep up with bzr goings-on <SteveA> but has not the time to keep up with the mailing list <ddaa> it is a suggestion from SteveA to use you guys collectively as a replacement for the not-yet-here bzr community guy and help folks like me who need to stay up to date with the bzr ML but cannot get around to. <SteveA> various attendees at this meeting do keep up with the mailing list <SteveA> so, the idea is that david can be given pointers to topics that are pertinent to him that arise <mpool> nice idea, but it doesn't seem to catch a lot of content <ddaa> *nod* <SteveA> does anyone do a bzr traffic kind of thing? <mpool> not at the moment <ddaa> Nope <SteveA> that was james b's job at one time <mpool> it would be nice, but, again, it takes time <mpool> rather than doing it on irc i think we should either <mpool> (A) actually do a traffic summary or <ddaa> We need a trafficker in the bazaar, we! <mpool> (B) just forward interesting threads to ddaa or some internal list <mpool> (B) is cheaper <SteveA> if something is relevant to david, it's probably relevant to launchpad. so I'd encourage bzr people to point out such threads on the launchpad list <SteveA> or even launchpad-users <SteveA> and get some cross launchpad-bzr interest going <mpool> OK <mpool> i like when you've [steve] done that on related topics in the past <ddaa> launchpad-users sounds a good idea it first <mpool> ok, depending on whether it's a user or developer question <ddaa> until people start complaining, then we can move it to launchpad@ <SteveA> ok, that's an action point for people who read the bzr list <mpool> lp-users seems mainly concerned with "send me cdsss!!" <SteveA> who here reads the bzr list? * spiv puts his hand up <mpool> me, lifeless, spiv, maybe jamesh? <spiv> FSVO "read" :) * _thumper_ gets it and reads some <SteveA> a current target for the launchpad team is to increase useful traffic on launchpad-users <mpool> ok, so we all know something about what lp devs need to know <mpool> if you see something, forward it <SteveA> better than forwarding <jamesh> I read it occasionally. I certainly don't read all messages <mpool> SteveA: or to lp if it's something about internals that might affect lp users <SteveA> send a proper brief mail <SteveA> with a summary of what it is and why it is important to launchpad <SteveA> this doesn't take long <mpool> right, if you do forward at least put on a summary <mpool> OK, great <SteveA> and vastly increases the usefulness of the pointer to readers <mpool> resolved <ddaa> let's see how it goes next week, moving on <mpool> let's leave this item on the agenda (new title) as a reminder to get in the habit <mpool> move on <SteveA> (particularly to people who subscribe to the launchpad-users list who are not here today) <ddaa> == Advertising == <ddaa> * spiv: post draft to LP mailing list for comments. <spiv> D'oh. <spiv> I haven't done that. I just re-read it, though, and I think I'll Just Post It(TM). <spiv> (i.e. to my blog) <ddaa> as you want, but feel free to ask for review <lifeless> I dont read all the messages <lifeless> its a busy list <ddaa> flascoste gave very useful comments to me in the past <lifeless> I certainly read all the threads enough to decide to finish the thread or not <ddaa> moving on <ddaa> == 1.0 targets == <ddaa> supermirror-smart-server: spiv: still looking on track for october 8th? What did you work on recently, what is still todo? <ddaa> importd-bzr-native: ddaa: progress of Arch removal and dists cleanup. Next: slice out HCT to remove pybaz dependency. <ddaa> bzr-roundtrip-svn: not for 1.0 <ddaa> * mpool: read up/tick off svn roundtripping discussion <ddaa> mpool: since I have no read the ML recently, I have no idea if anything relevent happened recently <ddaa> spiv: in summary, worked on http transport, next wsgi something to integrate into launchpad? <mpool> ddaa, sorry, it hasn't got to the top of my list yet <spiv> ddaa: For anonymous smart serving over HTTP, it looks likely I'll have the code ready or close to, but I'm not sure that I'll be able to get it deployed in that timeframe. <spiv> ddaa: Right. <ddaa> spiv: talk with SteveA and/or kiko about getting a delay <lifeless> ddaa: yeah, the http transport needed a large refactor of the code base, more than expected <lifeless> but thats over with <ddaa> nice to hear <ddaa> kiko said something about telling him about spec that will need some extra time to deliver <ddaa> so you should get that straightened out with him, I think, please keep me in CC * ddaa needs to be more precise <spiv> ddaa: Ok. <SteveA> and please keep the spec metadata in launchpad up to date <SteveA> as that is what we use in conf calls with mark <ddaa> Okay, I think I got my fuzzy <ddaa> my fuzzy point across <SteveA> importd-bzr-transition, supermirror-smart-server, bzr-roundtrip-svn <SteveA> on https://features.launchpad.net/products/launchpad-bazaar/ <SteveA> david and andrew, please ensure the metadata is up to date <ddaa> == Highlighted bugs == <ddaa> * Related to +source <ddaa> * bug 2649: CVS branch details should not be editable or displayed. (https://launchpad.net/products/launchpad-bazaar/+bug/2649) <ddaa> * bug 46240: posting $series/+source yields a confusing warning (https://launchpad.net/products/launchpad-bazaar/+bug/46240) <ddaa> * bug 50569: the product series page does not allow entering source or ftp details for projects without SVN or VCS (https://launchpad.net/products/launchpad-bazaar/+bug/50569) <ddaa> * bug: 48813: Efficiently mirroring sftp hosted branches with minimal latency (https://launchpad.net/products/launchpad-bazaar/+bug/48813) <ddaa> * bug: 58889: Merged and abandoned branch should not appear in main branch listings (https://launchpad.net/products/launchpad-bazaar/+bug/58889) <ddaa> Bonus bug: sabdfl asked for the ability to link a spec to a branch. <spiv> SteveA: Ok. <ddaa> bug 46240 fixcommitted last week <ddaa> bug 50569 in-progress by jamesh <ddaa> along with a ton a refactoring and cleanups for +source <jamesh> because of the refactoring, bug 2649 should probably wait for my branch to land <lifeless> ddaa: cscvs failure <lifeless> ERROR: testCommitWithAutomaticLogFiller (cscvs.tests.test_bzr.TestBzrWorkingTreeCommit) <lifeless> ERROR: testCommitWithAutomaticLog (cscvs.tests.test_bzr.TestBzrWorkingTreeCommit) <lifeless> jamesh: ^ <ddaa> *sigh* <ddaa> context: ^^ that is status of bzr-0.11 landing on rocketfuel <lifeless> thats with vanilla 0.11, bzrtools removed, lp 0.11 compat branc merged and cscvs compat branch merged <jamesh> lifeless: weird. I'll try with 0.11 final <ddaa> SteveA: I think the sabdfl bonus bug will be a good think to get _thumper_ started on next week <ddaa> gets to touch all the webapp stack, and not really complicated or risky <SteveA> ok <_thumper_> sounds good <ddaa> Quite unusually, we are ahead of time. <mpool> keep it up! <ddaa> == Any other business? == <ddaa> So, I'll wait for 10 minutes there ;) <lifeless> jamesh: details : <lifeless> AssertionError: {'converted-by': 'launchpad.net', 'cscvs-id': 'MAIN.1', 'branch-nick': 'bzr_branch'} != {'converted-by': 'launchpad.net', 'cscvs-id': 'MAIN.1'} <lifeless> AssertionError: {'converted-by': 'launchpad.net', 'cscvs-defaultfiller': '507-653-2812 1.1 file_name', 'cscvs-id': 'MAIN.1', 'branch-nick': 'bzr_branch'} != {'converted-by': 'launchpad.net', 'cscvs-defaultfiller': '507-653-2812 1.1 file_name', 'cscvs-id': 'MAIN.1'} <jamesh> yeah. I see it <_thumper_> I did hit two problems with utilities/launchpad-database-setup <mpool> spiv: jameinel will be at my house tomorrow <SteveA> so, I asked earlier <spiv> mpool: Cool. I'd be happy to join you. <ddaa> So, I'm done for the meeting. <ddaa> <insert random rant here about cscvs> <SteveA> about whether anything will happen about overlay repositories or similar thing <spiv> Right. <lifeless> there has been no serious discussion about it on list <SteveA> I'd also like to know about supermirror/smartserver stuff in more detail than "delayed" <SteveA> like, delayed by how much <lifeless> unless its a mark-mandated feature or some such, I'd say its way off. Myself, I'm not convinced its even a feature rather than a trap. <mpool> lifeless: take it you're refering to overlay repos, not the smart server? <lifeless> right <lifeless> :) <mpool> :-) <mpool> phew <ddaa> mpool: thanks for the clarification :) <SteveA> it feels silly to me to be storing and transporting revisions to the server we use many times more than necessary. it's a problem I think it important to be fixed for other projects that work as launchpad does, assuming there are/will be any * ddaa thinks overlay repos sounds like useful <SteveA> the problem can be fixed in many different ways, I'm sure <mpool> SteveA: i think the motivation for it is definitely good <mpool> i think i suggested (or at least thought :-) that you should make a braindump spec <SteveA> well <mpool> that will give it at least some lease of life <SteveA> I can describe the problem <jamesh> lifeless: weird. I thought I'd done a complete run of the test suite. I'm uploading the fix now <SteveA> but it appears, from lifeless's comments, that I'm not qualified to propose a solution <mpool> well <mpool> it's a valid identification of a problem <ddaa> actually... <lifeless> this is a wicked problem space <mpool> i don't think we should run into the design of the solution in this meeting :) <mpool> but we can talk about it this week with john <lifeless> we tend to evaluate many proposals before finding a good balance <ddaa> thinking of it, I think it's close to congruent to the smart server <lifeless> having a clear statement of the problem is very useful to guide those evaluations <mpool> ddaa: it's definitely related <SteveA> mpool: a good description of the problem is on the mailing list <mpool> SteveA: so i guess you're mainly concerned at this point that it not just be dropped/ignored? <SteveA> and john did answer the email <SteveA> do you want me to do something else with it? <mpool> SteveA: yes, that's what i'm looking at <ddaa> unless convinced otherwise, I'll believe that SteveA wants a smart server with ACL <mpool> i read it too <mpool> no, i'll paste it into the spec tracker <mpool> ddaa: what does this have to do with acls? <spiv> ddaa: that's one possible solution, but I don't think it's the only one or necessarily the obviously correctly one. <ddaa> I mean, access control <mpool> SteveA: the thread "Overlay Repositories"? <ddaa> okay, I'm just talking out of my ass <mpool> SteveA: is that an ok outcome for you, for hte moment? <SteveA> more or less I'm concerned with it not being dropped. I want to start getting people to look at bzr for their VCS system, and issues like this make people feel like something is clumsily designed, even when that's not the case <SteveA> because it takes an insider to see the design trade-offs or the unfinished work <SteveA> I'm happy with that outcome. thanks <ddaa> Well... <spiv> SteveA: Also, you wanted to discuss launchpad developers testing the smart server on devpad? <SteveA> spiv: thanks. yes, that seemed like a good way to get some testing out of the system. <spiv> We should get bzr 0.11 installed on devpad. <ddaa> spiv: yeah, gimme smart server, I give 50 dinars! <SteveA> mpool: also, did you ask etienne about packaging bzr-pqm ? <SteveA> or rather, whatever the plugin for pam-submit is called <mpool> sorry, no <jamesh> bzr-pqm is the right name <spiv> (it's possible to get people using it without installing it system-wide, but it'll be unnecessarily complex) <ddaa> Meeting nominally closed. Please go on. <SteveA> thanks ddaa, for a swift meeting <SteveA> spiv: when bzr 0.11 is packaged, we can get it installed on devpad <spiv> There's a package at http://bazaar-vcs.org/releases/debs/ -- is that sufficiently good? <SteveA> if it is for dapper, yes <SteveA> do we also need to get launchpad developers to use 0.11 ? <SteveA> if so, "scratchy" should be updated <spiv> The package from there is working on my dapper system. <spiv> Once 0.11 is installed on devpad, I'll be very happy to mail the launchpad list with details of how to test it and what to expect. <SteveA> well <SteveA> we have a way to get launchpad developers to use it <mpool> SteveA: apparently 'scratchy' split into different directories to accomodate edgy <SteveA> that is, we put it in that "scratchy" apt repository <SteveA> I don't want to give launchpad developers a change to their sources.list without good cause <ddaa> SteveA: I'd love if we could get some traction on branch-notification-email too. It's more complicated, but not terribly so, so maybe we could put that on the sprint too? <SteveA> and I think the "scratchy" thing should be kept up to date with what we want launchpad developers to be using <SteveA> ddaa: sure <ddaa> especially since having you handy to point to the right infrastructure bits needed <SteveA> ddaa: we'll see how that goes. I added it to the agenda <mpool> SteveA: we should probably just make a different repository for lp developers on edgy <lifeless> I thought scratchy was mant to be empty when the current release was in the distro ? <ddaa> SteveA: where's the agenda? Here's what I propose: hiding merged/abandoned branthes by default, branch-spec listing, branch-notification email. <SteveA> mpool: that's fine. My concern is if we set up a repository, tell launchpad people to use it, and then forget about it <lifeless> mpool: thats what the subdirs in scratchy are <SteveA> it needs to be something that is maintained, so that we're not changing people's config <lifeless> mpool: scratchy-for-edgy, scratchy-for-dapper <SteveA> and so that we don't roll back versions for people <lifeless> anyhow, you should go sleep, as I. early morning tomorrow. <SteveA> ddaa: the draft agenda is in a tomboy note on my laptop. <ddaa> s/branch-spec listing/branch-spec linking/ <SteveA> ddaa: bring other things with you to the meeting and we'll set a firm agenda as the first thing in london <mpool> SteveA: would it be too intrusive to get them to update their apt-sources once to the new url? <jamesh> lifeless: I've fixed the cscvs test failure, so the merge should go through fine next time * spiv -> dinner <lifeless> jamesh: I'll try again <lifeless> jamesh: tomorrow, theres a merge pending <lifeless> night all <jamesh> thanks. <SteveA> mpool: if we have a new URL, I want it to be one that we can put all .debs that launchpad developers need in. <SteveA> that includes the launchpad-dependencies things, and any other special debs they need <SteveA> as well as bzr tests <lifeless> well, thats really something that should be hosted by the support team <ddaa> jamesh: just to be sure <lifeless> rather than being on the bzr website TBH <lifeless> so I propose it be given as a request to Jeff Bailey <ddaa> you fixed the code not to set the branch-nick, right? <SteveA> it should be hosted by the sysadmin team <SteveA> and maintained by the support team <SteveA> with input from the bzr team about what bzr version goes in there <SteveA> then used by the launchpad team <SteveA> team <mpool> OK <mpool> i'll send a mail <mpool> is there any equivalent of x-debbugs-cc for RT? <SteveA> what does that mean? <mpool> any way to subscribe you to the ticket <SteveA> there is in the web interface <SteveA> I don't know about via email <SteveA> both the support people and the sysadmins use RT <SteveA> so they may know <SteveA> and this is kind of a support question :) #launchpad-meeting 2006-10-09 <poolie> hullo? <lifeless> hi <poolie> if i'm lucky i can go back to my dinner... <poolie> s//delicious & <lifeless> :) <poolie> (meeting ends... :-) <lifeless> fastest meeting ever <lifeless> all present say bye <poolie> 5.. <poolie> bye! <lifeless> 'bye' <spiv> bye :) <poolie> lifeless: happy hacking tomorrow <poolie> spiv: see you later <poolie> new bzr benchmark: meeting performance improved 900% ! <jamesh> no meeting? <poolie> jamesh: lack of interest... #launchpad-meeting 2006-10-16 <SteveA> goedemorgen <ddaa> Good morning gentlemans and gentlemans <ddaa> or gentlemen <spiv> Good evening. <ddaa> well, not ladies in any case <ddaa> Da Sydney crew appears to be away <ddaa> ha <poolie> hullo <_thumper_> speak of the devil <ddaa> okay, all required attendance now present <poolie> it's just the pointy hair :) <ddaa> hair? <ddaa> == Agenda == <ddaa> Next meeting Monday 23 October 1000 UTC - 1045 UTC. <ddaa> * roll call <ddaa> * production status <ddaa> * 1.0 targets <ddaa> * release finder <ddaa> * Python import <ddaa> * Debian svn server load <ddaa> * Cscvs and pyrex <ddaa> * Sprint report <ddaa> * SpecBranch status <ddaa> * bzr-lp features <ddaa> * forwarding bzr list emails <ddaa> * advertising <ddaa> * highlighted bugs <ddaa> * any other business <ddaa> If you wish to change the time of the meeting or add/remove agenda items, say "bzzzt!". <ddaa> If we are short on time, the "any other business" item will be automatically, dropped. So if you ''want'' to discuss something more, speak up now. <poolie> add: 'agenda items for singapore', if that's not covered by 'bzr-lp features' <ddaa> == Roll call == <ddaa> Sorry for missing the meeting last week without warning. <ddaa> No excuse was given for this week. <_thumper_> here <poolie> here <ddaa> poolie: well, basically bzr-lp features is your soap-box, so it's okay <poolie> ok <spiv> here <SteveA> hi <ddaa> jamesh: hello? <ddaa> jamesh appears missing <poolie> moving on... <ddaa> == Prodution status == <ddaa> Nothing new to report on production, as far as I know. Did anybody has something to report from last week? * ddaa goes oblivious to the world when on a sprint <jamesh> ddaa: here <SteveA> the only issue is the debian server load, which there is an item for later <poolie> next... <jamesh> ddaa: stub said he'd be doing a rollout this week, which will put the $productseries/+source form improvements live <jamesh> and have everything in place to run product-release-finder in production <jamesh> (finally) <poolie> jamesh: what will that do? <poolie> i mean, what will be seen under /+source <_thumper_> jamesh: could you point me to the changes? <ddaa> jamesh: offtopic, but good news <_thumper_> later is fine <ddaa> jamesh: please pay attention to the agenda <ddaa> == 1.0 targets == <ddaa> supermirror-smart-server: spiv: delivery status? New estimated delivery date? What was done recently, what will be done next? <ddaa> importd-bzr-native: was marked as delivered, further cleanups (removing baz deps completely from Launchpad) was deemed out of scope for this spec. <ddaa> bzr-roundtrip-svn: not for 1.0 <ddaa> * mpool: read up/tick off svn roundtripping discussion <jamesh> ddaa: I thought a production rollout would be related to that agenda item <ddaa> jamesh: mh, okay, will clarify. It's about reporting issues with the production systems. There are normally specific agenda items to mention rollouts. <ddaa> spiv: how the smart server going those days <spiv> ddaa: I'm still working on the HTTP smart server -- the code is
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