#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-06-02 <charlie-tca> I am trying the crashes in dasher again today <maco> dasher confuses me <maco> i tried it once, and it doesnt seem to be all that accurate about heading toward the letter i'm on top of. also, i couldnt figure out how to get it to put the letters i was chasing into the text box that had focus <Pendulum> maco: you need to start it from command line with dasher -a direct to get it to do direct input <maco> Pendulum: i did <Pendulum> huh <charlie-tca> Iam trying to use it <maco> i thought maybe after ive finished the word there's something undocumented that i have to do to tell it to splat that out? <maco> also, omg the letters fly around so fast i cant chase them <charlie-tca> it is not crashing for me <maco> are they supposed to all be lined up? the way you described it before, Pendulum, i thought itd be like a tag cloud style thing of letters <charlie-tca> change the speed numbers to smaller numbers <charlie-tca> they wont line up like you think <charlie-tca> and I can not get the punctuation working right <Pendulum> charlie-tca: what's your problem with punctuation? <maco> i just chased down "All" and then there's a box, which i assume is space, but still, nothing's being put into where my text cursor is <charlie-tca> apostrophes don't print <maco> i tried clicking the letters to tell it "no really this one!" but that just seems to pause it <charlie-tca> instead of clicking, point at the next letter you want in the same colored box <maco> same coloured box? <maco> they appear to be nested coloured boxes <maco> ive tried both with clicking and with just chasing <Pendulum> maco: what're you trying to input in? <Pendulum> *into <charlie-tca> If you are in a blue box for "h", don't go outside the blue to find the next letter. It should be another colored box inside that blue box <maco> vi <maco> in a gtk based terminal, not a qt one <charlie-tca> Pendulum: apostrophes and returns in xchat are failing to show <charlie-tca> this has a high lerningcurve <Pendulum> Attmittedly, I'm still on Maverick, but was mostly work for me <Pendulum> (until it crashed, but I suspect if I upgraded my dasher that wouldn't be a problem) <maco> im on maverick too <Pendulum> *working <charlie-tca> italso takes a lot of reen for me to use it <maco> is it supposed to input the letters as i chase them? <maco> or when it gets to a space, or what? <Pendulum> yes <Pendulum> as you chase them <maco> im trying in gedit now <maco> oh hm. do i need to have at-spi registryd going? <Pendulum> < Pendulum> Attmittedly, I'm still on Maverick, but was mostly work for me <Pendulum> ^^ was written in Dasher <charlie-tca> i am on natty Xubuntu <maco> kvkbd doesnt need it, so i didnt think dasher would, but maybe on screen keyboards do? <maco> or rather, *some* on screen keyboard? <charlie-tca> I think you do need at-spi registryd, but can't remember <charlie-tca> Pendulum: the latest version of dasher does work better <Pendulum> charlie-tca: I assumed as much. I've just been distracted by life stuff so not upgraded anything at all recently really <charlie-tca> understandable. I worked some trying to reproduce the crashes, and even tried the version in git <charlie-tca> For me, dasher in natty has the least crashes <charlie-tca> Back to writeing minutes from the meeting <charlie-tca> Pendulum: help? I clicked something that made dasher full screen and had to kill it from a tty <charlie-tca> how do I make it not full screen? <charlie-tca> lol <charlie-tca> What a deal ;-) <Pendulum> that I have no idea on <Pendulum> I've never made it fullscreen <charlie-tca> don t <charlie-tca> It is not usable, since you can't see anything but dasher and can't change the app it is inputting to <Pendulum> yeah <jono> charlie-tca, Pendulum hey <jono> would you be interested in doing a Q+A about Accessibility? <jono> we have these Friday Q+A sessions <jono> would either of you like to do it/ <jono> ? <jono> it would be on a heatherjohnson@example.com Pac time <Pendulum> charlie-tca: be interested in co-doing it with me? <charlie-tca> sure <charlie-tca> What friday? <Pendulum> jono: what friday? <jono> Pendulum, 17th June <charlie-tca> Pendulum: good for me <jono> would you like to do it togehter? <Pendulum> jono: yeah, I think if we do it together, it's probably best <jono> perfect <jono> thanks! * phillw asks what 09:30 Pac time is in UTC? <Pendulum> phillw: 16:30 UTC <phillw> thanks :) <charlie-tca> huh? <charlie-tca> 15:30, isn't it? <charlie-tca> it's 19:35 UTC now * phillw hmmm... can we decide? I'm terrible at TZ's :P <Pendulum> 9:30 Pac time is 12:30 Eastern and 16:30 UTC <phillw> 17:30 BST = 16:30 UTC, as long as I know - I turned up an hour late for a classroom session - worst bit was, I was holding! <charlie-tca> try this one - http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/converter.html <maco> jono: there's a pattern to when these Q&As happen? id had teh impression it was "when jono says something in #ubuntu-community-team, followed by everyone else going 'huh?'" :P <jono> maco, no pattern <jono> well, there is a pattern, every week <jono> but no pattern in terms of topics <phillw> charlie-tca: I have it on my task-bar - the only way I can keep in sync with people! <charlie-tca> That's why I use orage world clock. I have 18 timezones on my desktop <charlie-tca> phillw: http://imagebin.org/156515 <charlie-tca> Takes 1/2 inch across the top of my screen <phillw> Pendulum: are you mad busy? <Pendulum> phillw: not mad busy at the moment, no, but I'm a little tired so my brain may not be fully working <phillw> I'll be gentle :) <phillw> charlie-tca: you have mail :) <charlie-tca> Thank you. will be happy to advise #ubuntu-accessibility 2011-06-04 <charlie-tca> Anyone got experience with trackballs? What seems to work best for hands that only work part time? <maco> are you looking for a trackball model? <charlie-tca> model, brand, whatever works well. Tried the logitech trackball marble, the ball is a bit small <charlie-tca> ione mechanical is stiff, with a good size ball in it <charlie-tca> Mouse is hard to use, fingers don't bend well <charlie-tca> Now thinking about the kensington K64325, but they are a bit high priced if they aren't really good! <Cheri703> someone in u-w was talking about a trackball the other day <maco> i think the marble is the only one ive used, sorry <charlie-tca> no problem <charlie-tca> appreciate any comments * Cheri703 is checking scrollback <Cheri703> chalcedony was getting the Logitech Trackball M570 set up for her husband...I believe they got it working? <Cheri703> I have been interested in some of the vertical mice charlie-tca, have you looked at those? I'd think they'd help if there were grip problems (my hands cramp up easily and vertical wrist is more comfortable than horizontal) <charlie-tca> Haven't looked into them. <charlie-tca> Not sure how they would work with weak arms, though <charlie-tca> I will check on them <charlie-tca> Got to have pretty good thumbs for the M570, I think <Cheri703> I just mentioned it since it was a trackball :) I haven't ever used one for more than a few minutes <Cheri703> http://www.evoluent.com/ this is the primary vertical mouse brand out there <Cheri703> huh, interesting, they also have a keyboard with the num pad on the left, so the distance between typing hand and mouse hand is less <charlie-tca> I really do appreciative all suggestions on this. I at least look at all of the stuff. <charlie-tca> I just tried the thumb trackballs already, and they don't work so good for me. I know they are great for a lot of people though. <MrChrisDruif> I started on creating a vertical-mouse the other day... <MrChrisDruif> Still have to tidy it up/finish it :P <maco> Cheri703: annalee has one of those. she says its a lefthanded keyboard <Cheri703> entirely possible #ubuntu-accessibility 2011-06-07 <MrChrisDruif> phillw; which theme of Xubuntu was good for accessibility? And what made it so good? <phillw> MrChrisDruif: you, rafael and charlie-tca would need to chat about that. The kubuntu graphics guy is a really nice guy and it does seem that the two kindred spirits get on really well with each other. <MrChrisDruif> phillw; It seems Rafael isn't much on IRC....and not very cooperative...I've had some off mailing-list conversation with him... <MrChrisDruif> He works better alone I would say :) <phillw> the design work for the kubuntu area is breathtaking. You lads wanting to learn web-site stuff could learn SO much from the kubuntu people. <maco> the kubuntu graphics guy = who? <maco> roman used to do the login screens to match the wallpaper...is that who you mean? <MrChrisDruif> Don't you mean ochosi? <maco> i dont know who ochosi is <maco> not a name ive seen in #kubuntu-devel at all <MrChrisDruif> I think he made blue- and graybird <MrChrisDruif> #shimmer is for theming right? <maco> i dont know what you're talking about now <maco> is that an upstream channel or something? <MrChrisDruif> Ow...kubuntu... <MrChrisDruif> shimmer is from xubuntu <maco> oh ok <MrChrisDruif> xD <MrChrisDruif> Sorry aboot that <MrChrisDruif> phillw; So it was the theme from Kubuntu that is great...or that from Xubuntu? * MrChrisDruif is getting confused :P <phillw> it was, <phillw> afaik, it was charlie-tca who said it was one of the kubuntu themes that he had spent a long time on getting sorted. <MrChrisDruif> K? <charlie-tca> except from an accessibility viewpoint, for poor visual ability, plasma is really hard on the eyes <charlie-tca> phillw: xubuntu <maco> even with a different plasma theme? <charlie-tca> maco: I don't know how to change themes in Kubuntu <MrChrisDruif> Aloha charlie-tca :) <phillw> charlie-tca: so the theme is via xubuntu? <charlie-tca> but that default is really hard to read <charlie-tca> phillw: yes <charlie-tca> the greybird theme is a good theme for most of us <maco> charlie-tca: system settings -> workspace appearance -> desktop theme changes plasma's theme <phillw> charlie-tca: soz, I thought you were a kubuntu person! <maco> charlie-tca: system settings -> workspace appearnce -> window decorations for title bars <MrChrisDruif> As you might have realized...I've taken it upon myself to make an accessibility theme for Lubuntu <maco> charlie-tca: system settings -> application appearance for the window chrome <charlie-tca> phillw: Xubuntu Project Lead <charlie-tca> Kubuntu accessibility tester <charlie-tca> Ubuntu accessibility tester <MrChrisDruif> charlie-tca; So we're pretty good along the way with our accessibility theme already? <phillw> charlie-tca: again my apoligies, I thougt it was kubuntu! <charlie-tca> MrChrisDruif: you are? that's a good thing. <charlie-tca> yeah, too much transparancies letting the background and fonts blend is not so easy to read <phillw> charlie-tca: regardless of the tone of emails flying backwards and forwards. I assure accessibility that <phillw> Lubuntu IS commited <charlie-tca> I got that :-) <MrChrisDruif> Well...if you can take a look at ozone? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/Artwork/Incoming/Natty/Ozone Current theme in Natty <charlie-tca> the only developer we got around is TheMuso, and he is usually really busy <MrChrisDruif> To what are we committed phillw ? Or better put, to what not? :P <MrChrisDruif> I don't see TheMuso say much indeed <charlie-tca> I keep telling shimmer what blends too much, and ochosi made some serious efforts to get greybird where it should be usable by anyone. <TheMuso> I lirk, but I am often busy as charlie-tca said. If people want my attention on IRC, they need to signal me via my nickname, then I respond. <phillw> charlie-tca: I have chatted to TheMuso, hence his name being used when JM gave his opinion! - These devs do not pander to the electorate and wrap stuff in cotton wool - they say it as they see it. <charlie-tca> MrChrisDruif: I like that <MrChrisDruif> charlie-tca; Ozone you mean? <charlie-tca> You might have some fine tuning on the white titles on the blue, but that is nice theme <charlie-tca> yeah <MrChrisDruif> phillw; Hear that? <charlie-tca> phillw: unfortunately, so do I, so do I <phillw> TheMuso: hopefully, as Lubuntu gets past the next hurdle, we may have a little more dev time to help eachother. <TheMuso> phillw: Cool./ <MrChrisDruif> So we'd only need to look into the white on blue lettering and we're pretty much a done deal charlie-tca ? <maco> charlie-tca: im a developer... <phillw> JM is certainly up for it, as are people from SII etc. <maco> just not on canonical payroll like TheMuso ;) <charlie-tca> phillw: I am sure you noticed I don't back down easily. I think Lubuntu has a niche to fill, and I really want it to succeed. <charlie-tca> MrChrisDruif: from what I see there, yes. there will always be some tuning to work out, but for the most part, it looks good. <charlie-tca> dam <charlie-tca> phillw: I lied <charlie-tca> maco is a developer too <phillw> charlie-tca: Lubuntu will succeed, as for backing down? That is not required. Imagine if the only choice you had was Win, or N <phillw> Mac? <charlie-tca> probably some more around here * MrChrisDruif checks it of his todo list <charlie-tca> phillw: I agree <phillw> withing the linux family we have hunders, possibly thousands of flavours. <maco> im still pretty noob on a11y coding, but ive got the basics of ATK hinting sorted <charlie-tca> and I am pretty sure lubuntu doesn't want to integrate orca as it is today, too <MrChrisDruif> It's strength and it's weakness at the same time <MrChrisDruif> I read something about a C or C++ implementation of Orca? <phillw> charlie-tca: from what I understand, it pulls in gnome and all its dependant relatives. This is not something we can do :( <charlie-tca> experience with orca in Xubuntu says it ain't lightweight by any means <MrChrisDruif> Not only good for Lubuntu /me thinks <TheMuso> MrChrisDruif: Not confirmed, parts of orca may be ported to C to improve performance. <charlie-tca> yes, someone is working towards something in C, I think <TheMuso> Not necessarily, it depends on whether its worth the porting, i.e whether performance is that much better. <charlie-tca> phillw: given a choice between orca and none, choose none for this cycle. <MrChrisDruif> That's what I read as well TheMuso <AlanBell> I am not sure what is slow about orca <charlie-tca> AlanBell: I don't see it as slow, but I don't count it as light either. <phillw> charlie-tca: okies, as you all know. we are pretty tight on what we can add to Lubuntu without breaking our rules on what it must run on. <charlie-tca> yup <charlie-tca> I would like to see dasher working in everything, but at least try for Onboard Keyboard, it does help, at least. <phillw> AlanBell: it is down to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu#System requirements <AlanBell> oh, lubuntu stuff <phillw> AlanBell: that is wat we are discussing :) <AlanBell> but that is a we won't use gnome thing rather than a performance thing <MrChrisDruif> s/ /%20 <MrChrisDruif> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu#System%20requirements <charlie-tca> AlanBell: more of a "make it work in the 128MB ram" thing, I think <phillw> AlanBell: we will use anything that keeps us in that requirements. Remember Apollo 13? -- There is a red line in AMPS to get it to work, we have the same to do. <AlanBell> yeah, apollo 13 doesn't fly any more <phillw> If we cannot, we cannot - but that is no excuse for not trying. <AlanBell> but hey, it sounds like a fun project <charlie-tca> I like the idea of a very lightweight ubuntu derivative. <charlie-tca> I have sent several people to try it, when they compain about slow systems. <AlanBell> I give people more ram <phillw> AlanBell: ooh, goodie, I know several thousand people waiting for such gifts :P <MrChrisDruif> RAM != faster system ;) <AlanBell> anyhow, does lubuntu expose stuff to accercciser? <MrChrisDruif> AlanBell; What? <AlanBell> MrChrisDruif: lack of ram is almost always the only performance problem <phillw> AlanBell: a lot of people with accessibilty issues are in the lower quadrant of income. they cannot afford the 'latest' computer. My interest in this also rolls over to the ubntu-uk thread of school computers. <AlanBell> accerciser shows you what information is available over at-spi <MrChrisDruif> AlanBell; I meant the second sentence..."does lubuntu expose stuff to accercciser?" <AlanBell> phillw: yeah, and the stuff being pushed out by remploy is perfect for gnome, if it had more ram, so I am looking at how to up their spec <phillw> Back in 10.04 alpha2 we had a teacher from india come on and say he had managed to keep his little school lab going, on a blade server, of all things, because lubuntu used 30% less resources than the gnome one. Blade servers are not really designed with serving multiple dumb terminals, but that guy did it. <phillw> Give them the tools, they will make what they need. <phillw> charlie-tca: by the way, once JM has a chance, he is going to load up LightDM and compare resource usage to lxdm. As I said, I do recall some chatter about lightDM, but I'd rather have some one run some stats on them both. <charlie-tca> Great! <charlie-tca> In xubuntu, it works quite nicely, and doesn't have near the gnome dependencies of GDM <charlie-tca> phillw: let JM know it crashes at login right now, but does not seem to block anything. <phillw> charlie-tca: as we are virtually gnome free, lxdm is pretty lean :) <charlie-tca> I just keep getting a apport crash in oneiric from it <phillw> dropping HAL (whatever that is :P ) has taken a little time also <charlie-tca> It is really easy to theme too <charlie-tca> Yes, HAL had to go away. It was the way most power stuff was managed. dbus has replaced it, but I understand very little other than HAL is "bad" now <phillw> AlanBell: I have lost my begging list for second hand computers for F/OSS projects, could you or one of the ubuntu-uk people please resend it to heatherjohnson@example.com <charlie-tca> I guess I better go make moinmoin desktop edition work with python greater than 2.6 now. <MrChrisDruif> moinmoin desktop edition? So you can WYSIWYG it on your own pc? <AlanBell> phillw: do you mean this? https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-uk/2011-May/029581.html <phillw> AlanBell: that's the one, thanks. <AlanBell> http://www.ecycleonline.co.uk/choose-your-computer---ubuntu-12-c.asp <AlanBell> talking to them about doubling the RAM on the ubuntu models so they are higher spec than the XP ones <AlanBell> nothing wrong with the CPU but 256 is rather tight <AlanBell> would like to put a gig on all of them tbh <AlanBell> I have one of the Dell boxes in the pictures, works fine with a gig of ram running unity, single core 1.6Ghz processor <AlanBell> and they are the UKs largest employer of people with disabilities apparently <charlie-tca> MrChrisDruif: a short version of moinmoin, uses python 2.6 or less. It does not a full lamp installed <phillw> AlanBell: when I was plant chemist (many, many moons ago) we used to make the foam seat tablets for Remploy to turn into office furniture. It really is a small world. I did read, also many years ago that they shut that Remploy factory down :( <charlie-tca> MrChrisDruif: let's me plan pages out without using wiki.ubuntu.com for it. I just copy and paste when I build them. <charlie-tca> http://moinmo.in/DesktopEdition <AlanBell> wiki.ubuntu.com is actually likely to be somewhat fixed soonish <charlie-tca> It just saves a lot of frustration doing it on my own computer first <AlanBell> yeah, I understand totally * charlie-tca been hearing wiki.ubuntu.com will be fixed soon for a l-o-n-g time <AlanBell> http://wiki-test.ubuntu.com/Accessibility <charlie-tca> besides, it keeps me from complaining too loudly to the website people. <AlanBell> yeah, I have been pestering them for over a year, but now there is an actual running test instance of 1.9.1 with Xapian turned on and a getuser cache patch <charlie-tca> That will help a lot! <AlanBell> http://moinmo.in/MoinMoinBugs/GetSubscribersSlow <charlie-tca> that is a nice page. Will we get it? <AlanBell> http://wiki-test.ubuntu.com/SystemInfo actually running 1.9.2 <charlie-tca> I got 1.9.3 running here, but have to use python2.6 for it to work #ubuntu-accessibility 2011-06-08 <AlanBell> still a few bugs, user preferences doesn't work for me <AlanBell> bradm is doing the work and is in australia so well out of my time zone <AlanBell> and adding a page subscription doesn't seem to invalidate the cache like it should so that needs fixing <charlie-tca> but it is still a gain <charlie-tca> anything on getting the theme we want? <AlanBell> yeah, that was put up on 27th May, but there was no performance increase until yesterday when I found the GetSubscriberSlow patch for them to implement <AlanBell> no, not discussed themes at the moment <AlanBell> that involves different people <charlie-tca> heh, sorry <charlie-tca> I would be happy with something that doesn't fail every page change <AlanBell> me too <charlie-tca> I am back to "modern" theme, since none of the sidebar themes work right anymore. Too many fixed size headers and stuff <AlanBell> I use light, but I don't like it that much <AlanBell> just wish they had stuck with the old Ubuntu theme and changed the brown to orange and the font to the ubuntu font <charlie-tca> agreed. It would have worked better <phillw> I know the feeling <phillw> sorry, was away on dogs needing out duties :) <phillw> and for something quite spectacular, next time you want to just have a couple of minutes of a fantastic 1.5 minute long vid, have a look at https://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fvimeo.com%2F21294655&h=1dfd1 It left me speechless, (his two other vids plus his photography work is also pretty breathtaking). About the 1st time I've found FaceBook to be of use! #ubuntu-accessibility 2011-06-09 <Pendulum> ooh, a cool accessibility note about today's google doodle: http://kestrell.livejournal.com/642665.html <maco> http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-oneiric/group/topic-oneiric-accessibility.html <charlie-tca> blank page for me. Got a heading <MrChrisDruif> Pretty big page with me <charlie-tca> That's the third page I have seen, with the same heading, and part of the same url, does nothing here <charlie-tca> it is blank <MrChrisDruif> Filled with lots of text <charlie-tca> This is what I get - http://imagebin.org/157582 <charlie-tca> status.ubuntu.com seems to do it, this is the third page from there the same for me <MrChrisDruif> charlie-tca; did you try an other browser? Might be FF doing it? * MrChrisDruif is using Chromium Daily O:-) but Chromium Stable should suffice just as well <charlie-tca> no, I would think any official ubuntu page should display in firefox <MrChrisDruif> Should, but just check to be sure? <Pendulum> It's fine in firefox for me <Pendulum> charlie-tca: do you have javascript enabled? <charlie-tca> hm, midori I can actually see the dots <charlie-tca> Pendulum: no, that might be it <charlie-tca> I keep it disabled <Pendulum> I think that's probably the problem (looking at the page source) <charlie-tca> That could be. I have had it disabled for years <maco> the charts are all JS * maco off to sign language practice * MrChrisDruif waves goodbye to maco #ubuntu-accessibility 2011-06-10 <Pendulum> TheMuso: I know you're asleep now, but if when you get up you can release jussi's forward from the kubuntu-devel list that would be wonderful :) <Pendulum> TheMuso: I mean forward to our mailing list <charlie-tca> a good article - http://nicepaul.com/2011/06/08/accessibility-youre-doing-it-wrong/ <charlie-tca> The answer to being unable to read http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-oneiric/ is to turn off the minimum font size <charlie-tca> even zooming too much will make the pages disappear <JanC> heh, that's a weird effect âº <charlie-tca> https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad-work-items-tracker/+bug/795623 <ubot2> Ubuntu bug 795623 in launchpad-work-items-tracker "Can not use minimum font size and can not zoom page" [Undecided,New] <charlie-tca> phillw: I am tossing your nick around for help with a11y on websites <TheMuso> Pendulum: i don't see anything from Jussie in te ubuntu accessibility mailing list queue. #ubuntu-accessibility 2011-06-15 <Cheri703> when is the next meeting? <Cheri703> the topic says april, and the wiki says march, so... :) <TheMuso> Another meeting time hasn't been decided yet I suspect. <Cheri703> ok <Cheri703> also, please let me know if there are things I can be doing to help <Cheri703> and hi TheMuso :) <TheMuso> Cheri703: Feel free to raise it on the accessibility list if you want, as there are probably things that need to be discussed at this point anyway. <Cheri703> ok <TheMuso> Actually, I should do that myself. * TheMuso does so. <Cheri703> :) <charlie-tca> Pendulum: got anything for friday yet? <Pendulum> charlie-tca: no, but I don't know that we need to have much prepared. they've generally been run pretty much as strict Q&A sessions <Pendulum> charlie-tca: sorry, I've also had strep + bad fall so mostly lost the last week of my life <charlie-tca> I am sorry to hear that <charlie-tca> np <charlie-tca> we will make things happen. #ubuntu-accessibility 2011-06-17 <jono> Pendulum, all good for the Q+A today? <AlanBell> ooh, looking forward to that <Pendulum> jono: afaik yes :) <jono> Pendulum, :-) <Pendulum> charlie-tca: just reminder that we're on later :) <charlie-tca> Thanks, Pendulum <Pendulum> should be in just over an hour :) <Pendulum> charlie-tca: do you have time for a quick PM now? <Pendulum> or any point before we go on really (this is about a 1 min conversation so nothing heavy) <charlie-tca> I can try <Pendulum> charlie-tca: ready? <charlie-tca> sure <maco> woah that orca unstable email is like a bug report haiku! <maco> just move the "so" from the bottom line to the end of the middle line, and there you go <maco> oh wait, no, thatd be 5, 7, 6 ...remove teh "it"... <maco> im heatherjohnson@example.com. first line is 1 too long too. bah <maco> but as a haiku: <maco> has anyone observed <maco> orca sometimes crashes so <maco> you must start again <phillw> Pendulum: sorry I missed the Q&A session, it fell just as my parents were getting the final packing and the 2 crazy Border collies into the vehicle to have a few days off :( <Pendulum> phillw: no worries <phillw> Pendulum: if you have a couple of minutes for a PM? just a little snippet of news, which is positve :) <charlie-tca> maco: yes, I have seen that happen, along with freezes that have to be force killed <phillw> jono: do you have a spare couple of minutes? I promise, dead quick! <jono> phillw, sure <phillw> jono: you have a PM #ubuntu-accessibility 2011-06-18 <charlie-tca> New wiki changes... can not login because I changed the theme from Light :( <MichealH> Bug? :P <charlie-tca> Major mistake? <charlie-tca> awaiting response from rt <MichealH> You may get joy out of #ubuntu-website <charlie-tca> nope <charlie-tca> tried that before. They really won't touch it <AlanBell> indeed <AlanBell> it isn't something that many people can touch <AlanBell> and those that can don't really care about it or use it <AlanBell> bradm did the recent upgrade <charlie-tca> yup, so I did what his announcement said, and emailed it to rt <phillw> charlie-tca: while you are twiddling your thumbs and ranting at the idiot who broke it :P do you have a couple of minutes for a PM? <charlie-tca> no <phillw> okies, np. <charlie-tca> I am doing a lot more than just sitting <charlie-tca> I have a very busy morning happening <phillw> I'll catch up with you later #ubuntu-accessibility 2011-06-19 <charlie-tca> Cheri703: will pick up the vertical mouse this week to give it a try. Three trackballs and a vertical mouse to play with :) <Cheri703> nice! hope you find something that works for you <Cheri703> let me know what you think of the vertical mouse, may recommend it to my mom <charlie-tca> I will, but it takes a while to know <charlie-tca> give me about a month, I guess. Sometimes I know faster. <Cheri703> understandable :) #ubuntu-accessibility 2011-06-21 <Cheri703> Just realized I may have a conflict for the meeting on wednesday, but will do my best to attend :) <AlanBell> http://www.ukoln.ac.uk/events/devcsi/accessibility_hackdays/programme/index.html <AlanBell> I am not going to that, but thought it might be interesting #ubuntu-accessibility 2011-06-22 <w0jrl> hello everyone <AlanBell> I did a bit of a surprise interview on the Ubuntu UK podcast yesterday about accessibility in Ubuntu <AlanBell> as in, I was surprised by it! <AlanBell> the recording should be out in a few days, hope it sounds OK <w0jrl> @AlAnBell looking forword to it. <meetingology> w0jrl: Error: "AlAnBell" is not a valid command. <w0jrl> looking forword to it. <w0jrl> Are you having any luck with Unity? <AlanBell> no, totally broke it on my machine <AlanBell> I was trying to build compiz to add text cursor tracking to the zoom plugin <AlanBell> now I have broken unity <w0jrl> I'm playing with it, and the accessibility looks promising. However switching windows is a pain. <charlie-tca> From #ubuntu-desktop on 2011-06-21 (didrocks): <charlie-tca> orca seems to tell that it's happy with Qt a11y :) <charlie-tca> for people waiting to test: install qt and qt-at-spi from the ubuntu-desktop ppa <charlie-tca> then, by default, a11y isn't activated <charlie-tca> if you want to activate it: export QT_ACCESSIBILITY=1 <charlie-tca> (should make some application a little bit more crashy, but it's acceptable for now) <AlanBell> is the meeting tonight Pendulum? <Pendulum> afaik, yes <Pendulum> will change topic and send e-mail to the list when I am a little more awake * AlanBell tickles Pendulum * Pendulum updates agenda <Pendulum> or at least I will if I can figure out what should be on it ;-) <Pendulum> and if I can sign into the wiki <Pendulum> signing into the wiki is the bigger barrier <Pendulum> ah.. finally <Pendulum> AlanBell: are you making it to the meeting? <charlie-tca> signing in is hard now, but the pages are working <AlanBell> Pendulum: yup <Pendulum> can someone look at the agenda and let me know if it looks good? (and feel free to add/edit!) <AlanBell> I think there may be some interesting new stuff for testing that we should publicise <AlanBell> like some Qt stuff, and any developments in ubiquity <Pendulum> maco: will you be around for meeting? <Pendulum> (just becaue I know maco's done a lot of the Ubiquity stuff) <charlie-tca> It is pretty hard for normal users to test that stuff, actually <maco> when? <AlanBell> just over 3 hours from now <maco> Cheri703 actually has some ubiquity patches she should send me ;-) <maco> oh oh <maco> i have commit access to ubiquity now! <Cheri703> yes, yes I do * Cheri703 goes to do that <maco> Pendulum: yes i'll be around <maco> Cheri703: bzr diff <-- generates a patch * Cheri703 will just email you the files <maco> the Kubuntu Ubiquity is still too broken to get to the part where i try to make it setup kaccessible on new installs <maco> by which i mean: i fixed one crash! but there wasn't just one... <Pendulum> urgh... dear gmail send my e-mail please :( <Cheri703> maco: sent <Cheri703> I will try to make it for the meeting, at 3 I'm going off to teach teenage girls how to do some outdoor cooking and start fires without matches... <Cheri703> but I don't know when I'll be done. I'll be taking my netbook, and can tether with my phone, so I'll try to hop on <maco> Cheri703: firesteel + tinder? or charpaper + sticks? <Cheri703> flint & steel (with char cloth), steel wool & batteries, and possibly one or two others, we'll see <Cheri703> and we're cooking sloppy joes in the dutch oven, corn over the grill, and doing baked apples in a fire <maco> cool <maco> im taking a firesteel & tinder to Pennsic. ive heard coring a turnip and stuffing the middle with herbs and oil, then plugging the hole with a clove of garlic, wrap in foil, and throw on fire for 1-2 hours = yummy <Cheri703> yeah, every year church has "girls camp" and I went when I was younger, and so I help teach some of the stuff. most of it they can do there, but for some reason they chose a facility that will not let them make their own fires or cook their own food -_- that was always a big/fun part when i went <Cheri703> nice <paul_h> hi, could someone point me at the specific blueprint mentioned in the agenda for this evening's meeting? <Pendulum> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-o-accessibility-team <Pendulum> sorry, meant to put that in the agenda, but somehow didn't manage to do it <paul_h> Pendulum: thanks. btw the date is wrong on the agenda page too <Pendulum> ta <Pendulum> did my e-mail make it to the list? <Pendulum> (like an hour ago or so was when I tried to send it) <AlanBell> don't think so <AlanBell> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-accessibility/2011-June/date.html#start nope <paul_h> not sure, need to resubscribe to it. my email address has changed * Pendulum resends <paul_h> as for the archives. I think there's quite a long delay between messages sent appearing on there <Pendulum> argh, so annoyed with the wiki issues like having to resign in every time I want to do anything <paul_h> Pendulum: that email worked <AlanBell> no delay on the archives https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-accessibility/2011-June/005290.html <Pendulum> now I just have to not hurt myself between now and the end of the meeting :) <Pendulum> despite my current wish to part my head from the rest of my body <paul_h> will TheMuso be at the meeting do we know? didn't see a response to my meeting time suggestion from him <Pendulum> and I have no idea <Pendulum> bah <Pendulum> paul_h: I have no idea, unfortunately. I hope so! <paul_h> on the blueprint it says approved by Kate Stewart, who is she? <maco> ubuntu's RElease Manager <maco> her approving them is how we got a chart on http://status.ubuntu.com <paul_h> wow never seen that site before <maco> it's new <maco> the charts used to go to the wiki, but the wiki is a big pile of fall-over-and-die, so now there's a not-crashing website for it <paul_h> yeah I was having fun with the wiki the other day. was trying to see if I could edit the meeting agenda page but it just wouldn't log me in. kept getting proxy errors <phillw> paul_h: a little snippet of information has arrived in my inbox, from the TL of the Australian LoCo regarding Wiki.... "The wiki is in a state of upgrade, they appear to have load issues on the login side of things but it's definitely still being looked at. It seems to work fine sometimes and other times be a bit slow. I've noticed some 502 proxy errors when logging in. Fortunately the person responsible for the upgrades is in my LoCo so <charlie-tca> If you get a 502, try hitting F5 instead of anything else. Most times that will let it work <paul_h> didn't want to play ball at all on Monday afternoon but seems okay now. glad it wasn't something my end <AlanBell> phillw: yeah, the person doing the upgrade was bradm <Pendulum> paul_h: I think that's when people were having the most problems <Pendulum> okay <Pendulum> are y'all ready? <phillw> 21:00 UTC? <Pendulum> argh <Pendulum> I just failed timezones didn't I <paul_h> ready? <paul_h> another hour to go... * phillw been there got the 'T'-Sirt :P I was an hour late for a classroom session, and I was te one giving it :P <Pendulum> I guess this means I have more time for chocolate :) <paul_h> always do a `date -u` before you decide it's time for a meting at x UTC :) <paul_h> the blueprint mentions ubuntu classroom.... what is that exactly? <AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom <AlanBell> IRC based training sessions <paul_h> AlanBell: ta (Paul opens yet another browser tab...) <paul_h> luckily Orca is currently working quite nicely on the ubuntu wiki site <glen1> Hi <TheMuso> paul_h: Yeah I will be here, been a little swamped. <paul_h> TheMuso: good good :) good morning! <charlie-tca> where is the meeting? <paul_h> about to start... <Pendulum> 3 min according to my clock <Pendulum> charlie-tca: here * charlie-tca will stick, around then <paul_h> 21:00 UTC <Pendulum> right <Pendulum> #startmeeting <meetingology> Meeting started Wed Jun 22 21:01:30 2011 UTC. The chair is Pendulum. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell. <meetingology> Useful Commands: #topic #action #link #idea #voters #vote #chair #action #agreed #help #info #endmeeting. <AlanBell> o/ <Pendulum> kay, welcome to the meeting those of you who are here for it! <TheMuso> Hey folks. <paul_h> hey all * charlie-tca waves <Pendulum> I took the liberty earlier of putting up an adgenda at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Team/MeetingAgenda <TheMuso> Thanks, as the one who suggested the meeting, I probably should have done more, but have been swamped. <Pendulum> TheMuso: s'ok. I probably should have been on top of suggesting meetings ;-) <TheMuso> Pendulum: But you had more important things to deal with. <paul_h> the agenda suggests we start with the blueprint? <Pendulum> anyway, we can all have our own personal guilt complexes, but the meeting is happening <Pendulum> #topic Quick review of Oneiric blueprint from UDS <meetingology> TOPIC: Quick review of Oneiric blueprint from UDS <Pendulum> #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-o-accessibility-team <TheMuso> Ok, the document has not really been started yet, probably won't get to that till post feature freeze. <TheMuso> I.e the a11y architecture document. <Pendulum> TheMuso: makes sense. Let me know if there's anything I can do to help with that <TheMuso> Ok thanks. <TheMuso> Re java-atk-wrapper, its somewhat of a higher priority, and am working to get it in the archive, so that at-spi1 can be properly demoted from main, as openjdk still depends on at-spi. <Pendulum> *nods* <TheMuso> As for dasher, well not looked at heatherjohnson@example.com. <Pendulum> okay <paul_h> is the Java ATK wrapper still being developed? <TheMuso> paul_h: Good question. There doesn't seem to have been much upstrea mactivity, and it is in the process of changing maintainers. I emailed various people involved with it a week ago about a license questino, and have not heard anything back yet. <TheMuso> However, it is needed. <TheMuso> For openjdk. <TheMuso> Openjdk currently uses java-access-bridge with is deprecated. <paul_h> can openjdk use the atk wrapper? <TheMuso> I don't think openjdk uses it as such, it just makes sure its available for any swing etc apps. <TheMuso> But it may actually use it, I haven't looked into it much, all I know is that its needed. <paul_h> well I can help test any package you create <Pendulum> AlanBell: have you looked into the Compiz Enhanzed zoom stuff yet? <TheMuso> paul_h: I don't think its a matter of testing, once its in, its in, and its needed either way. :) <AlanBell> Pendulum: I have a bit <Pendulum> anything interesting we should know now or is it just mostly in progress? <paul_h> TheMuso: in as in on the CD? or available in a repository? <AlanBell> I spoke to smspillaz about it and got started setting up a compiz development environmnet <TheMuso> paul_h: In main. <AlanBell> it is a bit of a "patches welcome" state <AlanBell> so I will try and get it done <AlanBell> I know how the orca/gnome magnifier does text cursor tracking <AlanBell> just the compiz plugin is in C++ rather than python <AlanBell> needs to be done without creating a hard dependency on at-spi2 I think <AlanBell> and installing the compiz development stuff broke my unity <TheMuso> AlanBell: IMO a dependency on at-spi2 will be a must unless we want to kep updating the plugin with the dbus API, as the dbus API between at-spi2 pieces is in flux atm. <paul_h> can I ask where we are with regards to the accessibility of Unity - both 2D and 3D? <TheMuso> The Qt at-spi plugin authors are finding this out first hand. <TheMuso> paul_h: That will be covered in the development topic. <paul_h> okay - I thought we'd done with the compis - sorry <AlanBell> TheMuso: yeah, a dependency to actually do text tracking is fine, but the zoom plugin needs to work as-is without it. If that makes sense <TheMuso> AlanBell: yes it does, but I am not sure how we will manage that without a build time dep, unless we want to keep updating to the new DBUS changes for at-spi2 as above. <TheMuso> The good thing is even with a dep on libatspi2, we could make the text tracking interface configurable, so that the plugin can still work even with a dep on libatspi2. <TheMuso> Libatspi2 does speak via dbus after all, its just that its kept up to date with the dbus API changes. <Pendulum> Just quickly I think before we wrap up the blueprint stuff, charlie-tca and I did an accessibility Q&A last week in Ubuntu Classroom. I'm also going to start asking soon for volunteers to teach accessibility classes. It'd be great if we could get something into developer week as well as open week and user days (which we've done before) <TheMuso> I wouldn't mind if the timezone was more agreeable. <Pendulum> TheMuso: would you possibly be willing to teach a one-off class at a time that works for you? (so outside one of the weeks) <TheMuso> Yes, I could do that. <Pendulum> I know the Ubuntu Classroom Team really is happy to have classes at any time :) <TheMuso> Its just a matter of coming up with something. <Pendulum> :) <Pendulum> Does anyone else have anything relating to the blueprint to discuss? <AlanBell> "how to use accerciser" would be good <Pendulum> I'll take that as a no. <Pendulum> #topic Development Update <meetingology> TOPIC: Development Update <Pendulum> TheMuso: I think this one is pretty much all you at the moment :) <TheMuso> Right. <maco> yeah don't heatherjohnson@example.com. i have to make ubiquity stop crashing before i can make it do any useful a11y stuff <TheMuso> So, Qt accessibility bits are coming along. Didrocks from the Desktop team is handling Qt, the qt-at-spi bridge and the patches to Qt, as he is in contact with upstream. <TheMuso> The bits are now ready for testing in the Ubuntu desktop PPA for Oneiric only. I plan to hammer them today myself. <TheMuso> QML is on the cards for upstream, so hopefully at the end of it all, unity 2d will be accessible, however I do have my concerns that things won't be ready/stable enough in time. <Pendulum> TheMuso: is there any discussion happening within the desktop team about what would/should happen if it's not ready? <TheMuso> As for Unity 3D, well not much a11y is happening on that, at least in terms of the DX team. I am currently hacking on quicklist a11y and making some good progress. I feel that unless I work on unity 3D, it won't be looked at much this cycle, which sucks because I already have a pike of work on the Ubiquity a11y spec, https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-o-accessibility-ubiquity. <TheMuso> Pendulum: Not that I know of, that discussion may very likely happen next week in Dublin. <TheMuso> In fact I want it to happen. <TheMuso> So I will make it a priority that it gets talked about. <Pendulum> :) <maco> TheMuso: i got commit access to ubiquity, so i guess you can push some ubiquity stuff my way if you need. though, tell me first (don't pull an apachelogger...assigned all kde-related ubiquity bugs to me without asking) <AlanBell> TheMuso: you are over in Dublin? <TheMuso> AlanBell: I will be next week for the rally, yes. <TheMuso> maco: Thanks, but I am currently talkto design about UI stuff relating to how we present/activate accessibility profiles at the first installer screen. <maco> oh, so over-my-head stuff <TheMuso> Once thats sorted, coding will begin in urnist, I OHPEby tomorrow, if not early next week. <TheMuso> gah typing <AlanBell> so that would fix the problem on boot where you have to press a key when you see the magic symbol <maco> AlanBell: s/when/if/ <TheMuso> AlanBell: Yes. <paul_h> that's what I wonna hear... :) <TheMuso> Thats pretty much it from me at this point. <Pendulum> maco: do you have anything to add on any of your devel work? <paul_h> TheMuso: is there anyway I can have some input on how activating a11y on boot might work? <TheMuso> paul_h: What do you have in mind? I am currently talking to our design team about it at the moment. <maco> i have patches from Cheri703 to go through for adding accessible names to Ubiquity GTK and then i intend to knock out the variable name loop <maco> for Ubiquity KDE, it has to run before i can make it accessible <paul_h> well, potential hotkeys for activating a11y, that kind of thing <TheMuso> paul_h: Right, again, what do you have ni mind? Do you mind emailing me your thoughts? <TheMuso> So we don't clog up the meeting? <TheMuso> paul_h: Or we could talk about it after the meeting. <paul_h> TheMuso: sure, I'll be around after <Pendulum> okay, are we all set on Development then? <TheMuso> Yep. <Pendulum> #topic Discussion of community plans for Oneiric not on blueprint <meetingology> TOPIC: Discussion of community plans for Oneiric not on blueprint <Pendulum> I just wanted to bring these things up because we've got a lot more on blueprints this cycle that are development related than community related <Pendulum> also, some of these things I've been asked about from other teams <Pendulum> so to start off <Pendulum> Personas <Pendulum> AlanBell: any status update on the remaining ones? <AlanBell> not a lot of progress recently to be honest <AlanBell> so there is Simon who is partially sighted that is in progress <AlanBell> there is a deaf user, and one with cognitive issues <AlanBell> need to do a few collaborative sessions to get them hammered out and published <Pendulum> ok <Pendulum> AlanBell: do you want to send an e-mail to the list maybe to schedule something so we can do maybe a day of personas 'hacking' to get them done? <AlanBell> good idea, I will do that <Pendulum> I'm thinking if we could get 3-5 people to just sit for a day or two and work on them they could get done <Pendulum> and they are something joanie of Gnome A11y has asked me about <AlanBell> yeah, I know joanie liked the first two <Pendulum> okay <Pendulum> guess that's it on personas <Pendulum> Outreach <Pendulum> we're already going to do the Ubuntu Classroom things <Pendulum> are there other outreach things that we'd like to do this cycle? <paul_h> fairly trivial but what about a twitter feed and maybe a facebook page etc? <AlanBell> I did a podcast interview <Pendulum> are other people interested in twitter or facebook pages? <paul_h> I just noticed that some of the other projects mention them when I was looking at the wiki <AlanBell> I am kind of interested in the facebook thing, I know the Ubuntu one is massively popular <AlanBell> not quite sure what we would do with a twitter feed as a team <paul_h> perhaps just post links to blog posts etc <Pendulum> I do try to tweet at minimum meetings and stuff and random a11y related stuff I come across <charlie-tca> We could just feed twitter posts to Ubuntu_OS, which seems to be the official Ubuntu account <Pendulum> anyone can feel free to follow me. I'm colona13 on twitter :) <AlanBell> ooh, I am trying to get planet-a11y.net back up and running <charlie-tca> I'm charlietca1 on twitter and identi.ca <paul_h> I think it's a good way of spreading the word among people not already entrenched in ubuntu <Pendulum> also, we have our blog <AlanBell> it has been taken down for months and months because they had problems keeping it accessible because the diverse feeds it was aggregating broke it <Pendulum> which we can post to <TheMuso> I am themuso82 on twitter. <AlanBell> and I am alanbell_libsol <paul_h> we still have one more topic to cover <Pendulum> yeah <Pendulum> do we want to talk about it breifly or put it off? <Pendulum> (I really have to go at the 60 minute mark) <paul_h> guess it depends on whether or not anyone's got anything much to say on it <TheMuso> I don't think so, the only docs we are really wanting to do this cycle are the architecture doc, which has been covered. <TheMuso> And once complete, there will be docs for ubiquity a11y bits that are being added. <TheMuso> That will need to be written. <charlie-tca> carry it forward to the next meeting <TheMuso> I'll let everyone know when that is ready to be written. <TheMuso> Sounds good. <charlie-tca> and try to get j1mc to the meeting, since he does write docs <AlanBell> there is this that I was working on http://pad.ubuntu.com/AccessibilityInfrastructure <AlanBell> should become a blog post when done I think <TheMuso> Cool. <TheMuso> charlie-tca: Good suggestino. <TheMuso> Ok I think we are done here. <Pendulum> okay great! <Pendulum> Thanks everyone for coming! <Pendulum> #endmeeting <TheMuso> Thanks folks. <meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Jun 22 22:01:25 2011 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell . (v 0.1.4) <meetingology> Minutes: http://mootbot.libertus.co.uk/ubuntu-accessibility/2011/ubuntu-accessibility.2011-06-22-21.01.moin.txt <AlanBell> thanks Pendulum * TheMuso -> breakfast. * Pendulum --> dinner * AlanBell -> bed <TheMuso> paul_h: Give me a few minutes, and we can talk about accessibility profile activation. <AlanBell> timezones are great <charlie-tca> Pendulum: thanks for chairing <paul_h> TheMuso: sure <TheMuso> paul_h: Ok, so what do you have in mind? <paul_h> well, we're talking about the screen where users can pick the language and then whether to try or install? <TheMuso> Right. <paul_h> TheMuso: so, I's want some indication of when this screen had appeared, followed by an easy way to then activate Orca... <TheMuso> paul_h: Right. The plan at this point is to play a sound when the first installer screen appears. At that point, you will use a keyboard shortcut to launch the profile you want. Unfortunately the user will have to know ahead of
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