#ubuntu-learning 2009-06-03 * pleia2 pats ubuntulog <pleia2> yay :) <pleia2> (I opened a ticket to get it a while ago) <Yassine_Tn> I have Ubuntu desktop edition, and I need to run an OS without a graphical Interface (PC too old). Can I install Ubuntu Desktop edition and use it like the server edition ? <pleia2> \o/ <jpds> I have done some sysadmin pokage. <doctormo> o/ <pleia2> yeah, spads said he and elmo were working on it when I /msged <jpds> Should be coming back now. <doctormo> Hey jpds, how are you? I'm back in Boston today :-) <jpds> doctormo: Not too bad, thanks. <doctormo> hmm, no sign of Vantrax today, just when we need a talk :-D <doctormo> pleia2: what was the result of the CC meeting? <pleia2> doctormo: yesterday? green light from CC :) <doctormo> great :-) <pleia2> they like the project, think we're on the right track <doctormo> Now we just gotta sort out this CC-NC problem, agh. <pleia2> they got us our lists.ubuntu.com mailing list and the ubuntulog bot for the channel * pleia2 nods <pleia2> that came up at the meeting too, but we moved along so not to bog down the meeting too much <pleia2> greg-g is available to help out when we're ready to talk <doctormo> pleia2: What was the general feeling of the Community Council about it? <doctormo> Or should I say, what was their preference. <pleia2> doctormo: very positive <pleia2> and they were happy we came to present it to them, wished more teams would <doctormo> pleia2: They approve strongly of the Non-Commercial clause? why? <pleia2> ooh, that specifically? <pleia2> no, NC got bogged down in the same thing as it always does, I think they don't want NC <pleia2> but there is the whole issue with the canonical training materials being NC <doctormo> Ah ok, that makes more sense. <doctormo> Yes, we might have to be strict with that, I don't want deritivitive works that are all useless to the wider community. <pleia2> agreed <pleia2> there was also dicussion of the unclear licensing of the ubuntu wiki <doctormo> That's not a good sign <pleia2> I believe the CC is going to handle that and let us know <doctormo> OK, well I don't believe they would add restrictive terms, so it's probably just a matter of publicity. * pleia2 nods <Vantrax> Ello chums <Vantrax> its so quiet today <doctormo> Vantrax: Hi, not quiet, you weren't here when I was chatting before :-) <Vantrax> ahh * Vantrax does the happy dance <Vantrax> we have a proper mailing list <doctormo> [11:14] <doctormo> We need to talk because NC is going to be poisonous for these learning materials and I'd like to be working on something open source, NC isn't even allowed by launchpad. <doctormo> [11:14] <doctormo> I was trying to explain before why we should be specifically exluding sources that are too restrictive. including the canonical desktop training manual if they can't relisence. <Vantrax> ahh <Vantrax> this is a problem <doctormo> indeed it is <Vantrax> the CC is looking at this problem for the wiki at the moment too <doctormo> I hope they fall on the none NC side too, NC is far too crazy and costly to manage and even from a technical stand point it's a mess. <Vantrax> the big problem is the desktop training course is the perfect workbook for us, just in a bad format <Vantrax> doctormo: we already have NC stuff, look at the moodle training courses <doctormo> Vantrax: I'm calling on us to be firm on this, it's important for us to work in Open Source terms and the Desktop Training manual isn't. <Vantrax> what we produce should be BY-SA <doctormo> Vantrax: Why do we have NC stuff already? <doctormo> I thought we'd talked about this? <Vantrax> what we reuse is a little harder because it measn we have to generate more materials <Vantrax> the how to moodle on the wiki right now is produced by a highschool as by-nc-sa <doctormo> Vantrax: I agree, it is harder <doctormo> But it's very important <doctormo> If we can't get a relicense on the highschool course, then that's going to be a sticking point. <pleia2> can we have different courses with different licenses depending on the source material? <pleia2> I think having anything NC is unfortunate, and we will put warnings on it, but I think it might be a mistake to toss out those resources entirely <doctormo> pleia2: Some of what we need to do may be education of upstream, most of the time NC is completly inapropriate and is just used because of fear. <pleia2> doctormo: but if they won't budge (I don't think Canonical will budge on their training material), should we give up on using it at all? <doctormo> pleia2: yes <pleia2> I think as a general policy for the team it's good, but exceptions should be considered <doctormo> It's unfortunate, but NC can be quite nasty, do we really want to work of holding NC works in a special pen so they don't start leaching into other materials? <pleia2> fair point, probably not <Vantrax> doctormo: +1 <Vantrax> this is why I like having you as part of this board <doctormo> Vantrax: Your very own richard stallman... with better grooming habbits ;-) <Vantrax> I think exceptions will be made, its a practical reality, but we need to be very careful about how its contained <pleia2> Vantrax: +1 <Vantrax> the how to moodle is a great example, it s a complete self contained course clearly marked <doctormo> Not that I wan't to be a stick in the mud, I'm just concerned with future growth and consistancy. <Vantrax> doctormo: this is part of what needs to be sorted out by us, how the project will be implemented, grow, and be managed <doctormo> Vantrax: I may be able to make an exception to the "how to moodle" with these additions: that it is very clearly marked and that we make a point of asking for a re-license. <doctormo> We can't copy and paste from or use the how to moodle as a course template, for instance. <Vantrax> that is fair enough, we can ask the same of dinda as well, but its unlikely to be granted <Vantrax> no we cant, cp is ment to be working on a template <pleia2> perhaps we can put together some kind of draft letter for these requests, outlining why NC is tricky? <Vantrax> yes <doctormo> That would be great. <Vantrax> chief of which is NC is not defined <doctormo> These people don't often expect to earn money from relicensing, they're just being human, fear. <Vantrax> doctormo: can you work with gregg to draft that <doctormo> Although our main point is "We're open source, NC isn't" <Vantrax> you seem to be good with the putting words together thingy <doctormo> Aye <Vantrax> and can you throw that up on the tasks page too <pleia2> which reminds me, these past couple weeks I've been following up with teams (it's been hard with UDS), talking to effie about loco teams stuff <pleia2> mostly the teams are now pondering Classroom things until we can get them hooked up with Moodle, so essentially they're waiting on us <doctormo> Done <bodhi_zazen> OMG a conversation in this channel :) <doctormo> bodhi_zazen: conversion? <bodhi_zazen> sweet pleia2 :) <Vantrax> i think we should take the current server link off the wiki page <pleia2> why? <Vantrax> we dont want people not involved going to it untill the theme is there at the very least <Vantrax> it looks like crap atm >.< <Vantrax> Id rather not have it there, then have people look at it before we make it pretty <Vantrax> especially considering the wiki page will be linked in my post to planet. <Vantrax> and to the news team/fridge <pleia2> I dunno, I think transparency in this project is important, I'd rather not hide things from potential contributors <pleia2> maybe someone who reads it will say "I am an expert moodle themer, can I help? :) <Vantrax> that is true, but contributors will come to the irc channel <Vantrax> or send a mail to the list <Vantrax> at the same time other people could go see it and think the project is a joke because the server doesnt look like much (YET) <pleia2> I would really rather not make it hard for people to see our resources or contribute, no matter what the state they're in <Vantrax> im going to be spending a bit of time on dev for the theme this weekend <Vantrax> hrm, maybe ill just delay the announcment till I finish the theme <Vantrax> either way i need to be able to upload the theme to the test site bodhi_zazen <Vantrax> oh, were being logged now? * Vantrax points to ubuntulog <bodhi_zazen> Vantrax: do you have a ssh key ? <bodhi_zazen> where does your theme go exactly ? #ubuntu-learning 2009-06-04 <bodhi_zazen> you want to upload to the test site ? <Vantrax> yeah, just the test site <Vantrax> not the live one * Vantrax goes off to look for an ssh key <JoshuaRL> Vantrax: NO! theyre dangerous ... <Vantrax> but usefull:P just like guns <JoshuaRL> Vantrax: that sounded downright american <Vantrax> Im not american tho... <JoshuaRL> then be careful <doctormo> Vantrax: I think you should delay the announcement until the theme is done <doctormo> btw, when do you want that theme? <Vantrax> asap:P <doctormo> I can do you stuff, but someone else will have to make it fit, I can't seem to get a test site working here <doctormo> remind me of the domain name? <pleia2> ufbt.net <pleia2> er, learn.ufbt.net <doctormo> ok, going to use styleist to make a theme for viewing <Vantrax> doctormo: id like to see http://vl3.co.uk/moodle/?&theme=EduMoodle with the ubuntu color theme <Vantrax> doctormo: option two is http://moodle.org/mod/data/view.php?d=26&rid=1641 with the ubuntu color theme, this one is probably a better option <Vantrax> should be minor css hacks, and reworking the images to the right colors <Vantrax> bodhi_zazen: whats with the channel... <cprofitt> we have been taken over by channel snatchers <bodhi_zazen> the channel is working fine Vantrax <bodhi_zazen> we moved <bodhi_zazen> I decided whey you were not looking <Vantrax> to? <pleia2> hehe <cprofitt> you are there Vantrax ubuntu-beginners <Vantrax> ahh <Vantrax> i see <Vantrax> booo <bodhi_zazen> L M A O Vantrax <Vantrax> im having a bad day.... <cprofitt> I understand... <cprofitt> I am having issues with the display I set up... <cprofitt> being anal gregory37@example.net... <cprofitt> the poster is about 1/32" off on one side... and I am having to hold myself back from trying to redo it... <cprofitt> which could rip the poster <doctormo> http://divajutta.com/doctormo/learning/title.png <doctormo> I don't think I'm having a very productive evening, that's the best I could do for the moodle theme <pleia2> hm, we should schedule our next meeting <doctormo> Good day all <pleia2> hey doctormo <pleia2> I think we need a team meeting, thoughts? <doctormo> I think so, this would be about the copyright stuff right? <pleia2> yep <pleia2> and aside from this and moodle theme, I think it would help us to have a clear picture of exactly what needs to be done to start course creation <doctormo> ok <txwikinger_work> copyright? <pleia2> oh, and we need to nudge Vantrax to share the ML password <pleia2> txwikinger_work: course licensing <txwikinger_work> Ah <txwikinger_work> I thought it was to be CC-SA or something like that <pleia2> pretty much, but that does exclude a lot of material and we need to discuss exceptions <txwikinger_work> ah <nhandler> If you are switching to the lists.ubuntu.com mailing list, you should send an email to the old list telling them about the change <pleia2> he did <pleia2> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-learning/2009-June/000000.html <pleia2> (was sent to old and new) <doctormo> pleia2: do we have a date/time for the meeting? <pleia2> doctormo: not yet <pleia2> gives idea of when we're all available: http://www.doodle.com/e4qemk8nuf2q5iye <pleia2> sunday and monday evenings seem best <doctormo> Aye aye <bodhizazen> meeting ? <bodhizazen> lol <pleia2> bodhizazen: 10:00:07 < pleia2> and aside from this and moodle theme, I think it would help us to have a clear picture of exactly what needs to be done to start course creation <pleia2> ^^ re: meeting <bodhizazen> sounds good to me :) <pleia2> this == licensing <pleia2> licensing is mostly sorted, but I want to make sure everyone has had their say * bodhizazen is confused re licensing issues, but I am glad you all are looking at it :) <pleia2> hehe <pleia2> that's why it's good to have such a diverse board :) <doctormo> heh <doctormo> Well, I think I've had my say, I just get the feeling I'll be over ruled. <doctormo> The Ubuntu Desktop manual seems to attractive to other board members, but I'm willing to reject it in favour of keeping things simpler for the future. <doctormo> Failing that, I'll be asking for tight controls on derivitive works, no works derived from the UDM accepted, no other NC or ND works accepted etc etc. <doctormo> And possibly an extant to ask for a replacement once we have other courses set up. <Vantrax> lo all <Vantrax> I have a question to all, we currently have ubuntu-learning etc for all the project names/channels/maillinglist but this seems largely as thats the standard for ubuntu channels. For the actual name at the top of the moodle site, should it not be Learn Ubuntu, or Learning Ubuntu considering the dns is learn.ubuntu.com <Vantrax> then the tagline be Ubuntu Community Learning <doctormo> Vantrax: this is from the title graphic? <Vantrax> yer <Vantrax> it just looks odd that way unless you know the community well <Vantrax> opinions? <doctormo> Vantrax: "Learn Ubuntu" is ok, "Ubuntu Learning" is better though. <doctormo> a) sounds like it's the second subset only, where as b) sounds like a whole community <Vantrax> im mor talking in terms of the site name, not the project, or community <doctormo> Vantrax: Same thoughts apply <doctormo> Learn Ubuntu contrasts with Learn Inkscape, but Ubuntu Learning can quite happily include Learn Inkscape. <bodhizazen> Vantrax: I thought we were calling ourselves the UCLP <bodhizazen> and Leaning was the realm of Edubuntu <Vantrax> Education is edubutu <Vantrax> Learning is us <bodhizazen> so IMO UCLP is best , but I am flexible <bodhizazen> Ubuntu Community Learning Project ? <bodhizazen> UCL ? <bodhizazen> drop the project ? <Vantrax> and I was just talking about the name for the website itself, like ubuntu news is the fridge <Vantrax> Yeah, the project shouldnt be in the name anyway:P <Vantrax> UCL also sounds like a University:P <bodhizazen> I think we need some structure, how do we give each project space ? <Vantrax> I found myself a new car: http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/06/air-force/ <bodhizazen> make a course Development ? <bodhizazen> and on <bodhizazen> we need some structure <Vantrax> yep that was one of the things I talked about in the email <Vantrax> we need to sit down with a list of suggested courses for programs and look at how that will work <bodhizazen> Well, I thought we named ourselves the UCLP , lol <bodhizazen> we would need to discuss a name change <bodhizazen> in terms of a name at the top of the site, I am open, although the project name seems logical ??? <bodhizazen> we also need to start some regular meetings <bodhizazen> once ever y2 weeks ? <Vantrax> yer <Vantrax> we need to have regular team and board meetings <Vantrax> especially now we can start moving #ubuntu-learning 2009-06-05 <pleia2> Vantrax: we were talking about this earlier today, according to the doodle poll 00:00 UTC on monday and tuesday (sunday and monday night for most of us, monday and tuesday morning for you?) tend to be the best <pleia2> I'd vote for second sunday and third monday at that time <pleia2> err <pleia2> first monday and third sunday <pleia2> or something :) <Vantrax> thats 10am for me, and I can usually make it <Vantrax> that being said, I am at work <bodhizazen> +1 for 00:00 UTC <bodhizazen> most any day ;P <bodhizazen> we should put it on the fridge or a personal (gcal) ? <bodhizazen> pleia2: my session in 45 min ? <pleia2> bodhizazen: yes :) <Vantrax> fridge imo <Vantrax> for team meetings anyway <bodhizazen> session in 5 min or so :) <pleia2> cprofitt: someday I must pick your brain about running concise, successful meetings :) I am terrible at it <cprofitt> lol... why do you say that? <pleia2> tangents, losing my train of thought :) <cprofitt> pleia2, today's event - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewYorkTeam/Events/20090604 <pleia2> yeah, I saw! nice :) <cprofitt> you just have to be single minded like me... <pleia2> hehe <pleia2> so in meetings I get distracted by tangents because I *want* input from other people, I don't want them to feel bad about offering suggestions <cprofitt> I see... <doctormo> I vote -1 for calling the website after the initalism, it's not a very good brand <cprofitt> write down the 'off-topic' ideas... and tell them you will get back to that point later pleia2 <cprofitt> what website cprofitt <doctormo> That's what you have to do when you chair a meeting <cprofitt> I mean doctormo what website? <doctormo> The ubuntu learning website <pleia2> cprofitt: I am bad at saying that nicely, or I spend too much time trying to think of how to say it nicely :) <doctormo> [18:48] <bodhizazen> so IMO UCLP is best , but I am flexible <doctormo> pleia2: you don't get points for nice, you get points for being fair and decisive. <cprofitt> don't try to say it nicely... just say it... tell people at the meeting start... <cprofitt> so the website will be called UCLP? <doctormo> cprofitt: I hope it won't be called UCLP <cprofitt> I thought is was Ubuntu Community Learning Project <cprofitt> which is ULCP... <cprofitt> what are the other alternatives? <cprofitt> UCLP I mean... <doctormo> No, think about branding, design, ULCP is a jaundiced brand. <cprofitt> why? <doctormo> It talks of "people who couldn't think up a good name" not "what the thing does" <doctormo> "Ubuntu Learning" should be fine. <cprofitt> So you want to drop the Community and Project part... <doctormo> yep <doctormo> Have those in the sub-title as I have in my graphic I posted last night <cprofitt> I have no issue with that... and I am the one that threw out the ULCP name -- I did not expect people to like it, but they did. <cprofitt> link to graphic <doctormo> http://divajutta.com/doctormo/learning/title.png <pleia2> I like the simplicity <cprofitt> doctormo, that works for me <cprofitt> so pleia2 would you come to Rochester if it had a Linux Festival? <pleia2> cprofitt: depends on when :) <cprofitt> Spring time frame I think... <cprofitt> too many other things in the fall... <cprofitt> we are probably over a year out on it though... <cprofitt> we need to build some more vendor support * pleia2 nods <pleia2> build it, I will come :) <cprofitt> I forced the Dell reps to come look at our packed room... <pleia2> hehe <cprofitt> and told them I would love to have them do an Ubuntu demo with their units <cprofitt> they were all baffled that they sold Linux <cprofitt> sales people are gregory37@example.net... at least the ones that work for Dell <pleia2> lol <cprofitt> their tech support is not much better... <cprofitt> but they do sell Ubuntu machines <doctormo> cprofitt: At least you got into their heads right? <cprofitt> Well.. make them think it is worth talking about... worth supporting <cprofitt> It bothers me more that Dell sells them and hides them than it does that HP and Lenovo do not sell them <doctormo> pardon? <doctormo> Are you saying that HP doesn't sell Ubuntu machines? <doctormo> or are you saying that Dell thinks HP doesn't sell Ubuntu machines? <cprofitt> HP does not sell ubuntu machiens <cprofitt> Dell sells them... but hides them <cprofitt> that upsets me... why hide the fact you are selling them <Vantrax> HP does, just not desktops <cprofitt> They sell Ubuntu Vantrax ? I knew they sold Linux, but was unaware of Ubuntu <Vantrax> on servers only, Canonical is actually in the process of getting certified atm from memory <cprofitt> so they are selling or will sell? <Vantrax> we had the option on it from our reseller a few months ago when we bought a server <cprofitt> nice... have not seen that in the states yet <Vantrax> that 'might' have been because of who we are as opposed to a standard <doctormo> cprofitt: HP sells a netbook with Ubuntu on it called the "HP Mini Mi", the Canonical guys down here at Lexington were the ones payed by HP to develop it. <Vantrax> nice <cprofitt> nice... I had not seen that either <cprofitt> yeah US website still not offering ubuntu on their servers <cprofitt> they offer Microsoft, Solaris, Redhat and Suse <doctormo> For HP it's all a branding play, they never wanted to say that it was Ubuntu, they were even very shy about calling it Linux <cprofitt> the minis are now saying contact your local rep to list alternative OS choices <cprofitt> still not like these guys though -- http://www.system76.com/ <Vantrax> doctormo: i think that will change once they are HP certified <cprofitt> I hope so Vantrax <cprofitt> I would love to see main-line vendors just offer it as a drop down choice <doctormo> cprofitt: I'd love to see a level playing field, but it won't happen just yet. It's getting there ever so slowly <cprofitt> doctormo, I agree... <cprofitt> and I think 'local shops' could be the start <cprofitt> if they can differentiate themselves from the 'big boys' and put some stats in to the market that Linux can sell... <bodhi_zazen> is there an easy way to search the fridge for specific meetings ? <bodhi_zazen> The server died <bodhi_zazen> I am not really sure what happened to the test moodle site :( <bodhi_zazen> but I can not connect to it <bodhi_zazen> I will re-build it this weekend <pleia2> bodhi_zazen: could look at and search the xml feed: http://www.google.com/calendar/feeds/j5q85mmi6ujvjtii5s1n3li5io%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic <pleia2> oh hm, I guess that only shows ones that already passed <pleia2> guess not <bodhi_zazen> thanks anyways pleia2 :) <bodhi_zazen> it is a busy calendar is all * pleia2 nods <bodhi_zazen> we should start regular meetings for this team <bodhi_zazen> weekly or bi weekly until we are up and running <bodhi_zazen> do we have a meetings wiki page w/ an agenda ? <pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/Agenda <pleia2> I think Vantrax was going to write meeting minutes and rotate this stuff out from our last meeting, but I don't know if that ever happened <bodhi_zazen> not yet, I will work on it <bodhi_zazen> have we agreed on a meeting schedule yet ? <pleia2> not yet, the doodle poll shows monday and sunday evenings are best <pleia2> so I proposed: 1st Monday, 3rd Sunday <pleia2> which is mostly bi-weekly <bodhi_zazen> where is the doodle pool ? <bodhi_zazen> I saw that mentioned :) <pleia2> http://www.doodle.com/e4qemk8nuf2q5iye <pleia2> (update the timezone for yourself) <bodhi_zazen> thank you, got it <bodhi_zazen> sunday would be hard for me <bodhi_zazen> and in my experience with the beginners team, turn out is poor on weekends <bodhi_zazen> people view them as "free" <bodhi_zazen> but then they travel and get busy :( <pleia2> the good thing about bi-weekly meetings is we don't all actually have to be there :) <pleia2> for every one <pleia2> they are frequent enough that missing sometimes isn't a big deal <bodhi_zazen> We tried it more then once, the second time people were clamoring for a weekend slot and it was not long b4 I was the only one at the meeting <bodhi_zazen> +1 <pleia2> since this is what the doodle poll reflects, I think we should respect it <pleia2> if sunday meetings turn out to be failures, we'll adjust :) <bodhi_zazen> we still need licensing on the agenda ? <pleia2> yes <pleia2> but that agenda is old <bodhi_zazen> I updated the agenda :) * pleia2 looks at old revision and makes page for last meeting #ubuntu-learning 2009-06-07 <webbs02> hello all! :) <xNinjai> http://pastebin.ca/1450422 <xNinja> hello <doctormo> pleia2: Meeting today? <pleia2> doctormo: we never actually planned one <doctormo> ah #ubuntu-learning 2009-06-08 <doctormo> Vantrax: how goes? <Vantrax> going ok <pleia2> quiet lately, anyone working on anything? need me to pitch in anywhere? (just chugging along with classroom at the moment) <doctormo> Hmm, sounds like we need a begining to this group <bodhizazen> 'lo everyone <Vantrax> lo bodhizazen <Vantrax> we need to get a meeting for the board to get everything started <bodhizazen> yes <cprofitt> bodhizazen, the server upload size is back to 2mb again... I have two courses to upload if you can raise that again <pleia2> cprofitt!!! <pleia2> I'm working with some freenode folks on a fosscon in the northeast next spring (or summer) <pleia2> I know you guys in us-ny were thinking of something similar, and for us rochester has been floated as a potential location, hope into #northeastgnulinuxfest if you're interested :) <pleia2> s/hope/hop <cprofitt> nice <cprofitt> Rochester would be an excellent choice -- RIT, etc <bodhizazen> cprofitt: yes <bodhizazen> cprofitt: would scp access be easier ? <bodhizazen> If so, email me a key and I will add it to the server <cprofitt> bodhizazen, I could learn scp <jamesrfla> I thought it was just a protocol <bodhizazen> cprofitt: scp is easy <jamesrfla> lol you missed him....... <bodhizazen> scp file root@server:/usr/share/locatiion <bodhizazen> lol #ubuntu-learning 2009-06-09 <bodhizazen> wb doctormo and nhandler :) <doctormo> hello bodhizazen <doctormo> interesting form post I notted the other day <bodhizazen> nhandler: they fixed my php bug :) <bodhizazen> The source now builds <bodhizazen> which one doctormo ? <nhandler> Great bodhizazen <bodhizazen> but so far the server team seems oblivious to my request on how to package php-fpm <bodhizazen> lol <doctormo> bodhizazen: the one about the Mono rage. <bodhizazen> on the forums doctormo ? <bodhizazen> linky please doctormo <doctormo> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1169322&page=2 <bodhizazen> Ah, thanks doctormo :) <bodhizazen> / me is tired of the open-source nazis telling me what is open and what I can run on my box :) <cprofitt> bodhizazen, nhandler and others - take a look at the Open Office course... let me know what you think <cprofitt> open-source nazis - for example Stallmanettes? <bodhizazen> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1169322&page=2 <bodhizazen> Stallman wanna bes :) <nhandler> cprofitt: Do you have a link? <cprofitt> learn.ubft.com <cprofitt> or .org <cprofitt> or .net <cprofitt> yeah.. learn.ufbt.net <bodhizazen> http://learn.ufbt.net/course/view.php?id=5 <bodhizazen> what I have looked at look nice <bodhizazen> it is long cprofitt * nhandler is now making his 3rd, 4th, or 5th account on learn.ufbt.net <cprofitt> read it all <cprofitt> nhandler, just use openID <cprofitt> that guy is amazing <cprofitt> or did you mean the course is long bodhizazen <nhandler> cprofitt: I am, but that still requires you to fill out the registration form <nhandler> bodhizazen: The emails it sends out are messed up <nhandler> They say "Dear ," <doctormo> bodhizazen: That seems rather insulting to Stallman, you know I'm freindly with the FSF as their HQ is in Boston. <doctormo> I won't have a bad word said about them in that regard, you can't mistake Stallmans position on anything and he'll change positions given new data. <doctormo> cprofitt: I'm waiting for the announcement about the 'how to do courses' and 'how to teach' sections so we can have a big media blow out <power885> hello can anybody help me..... <doctormo> power885: don't ask to ask, people are friendly and naturally helpful. <doctormo> so that would be, yes <power885> sory am just a newbie o ubuntu and programming <nhandler> When viewing the OO.o lesson, the header has a scrollbar <doctormo> power885: Welcome <doctormo> I'd really like to get the theme sorted out, damn it <power885> i am very much interested in programming so plz guide me wat knowlege i should get for doing developmnt in ubuntu system <bodhizazen> doctormo: I really do not have a problem with Stallman <bodhizazen> at least not that I know of <bodhizazen> I do have a problem with anyone telling me what I can use on my computer <bodhizazen> no matter if it comes from microsoft or stallman <power885> doctormo: hello u der?? <doctormo> power885: tes <doctormo> yes <doctormo> bodhizazen: the conflict is not about inderviduals, it's one of those blasted social problems, I'll pm you a link <power885> doctormo:i am very much interested in programming so plz guide me wat knowlege i should get for doing developmnt in ubuntu system <doctormo> power885: yes, hang on <bodhizazen> power885: what kind of programming ? <doctormo> power885: OK the first thing is, do you know how to do any programming at all? <bodhizazen> your question is quite broad :) <cprofitt> doctormo, cool... have you taken a look at the two courses I uploaded? <doctormo> cprofitt: Yes, so far it looks good, there are some aspects of the designt hat need attention, how much control do we have over presentation of courses? <bodhizazen> doctormo: I am not sure I want to delve into the politics of open source <cprofitt> well... those courses are CC <power885> doctormo:ya i know little basics of C and c++ <cprofitt> so I think we can adapt them <cprofitt> I have not had a chance to adapt them yet... <bodhizazen> I prefer opensource for a varitey of reasons, but the simple fact is, the open source community does not as of yet provide the full functionality I need <doctormo> bodhizazen: politics just means city, it's the thought and argument of community and society, rejection of politics is a rejection of community :-( <cprofitt> and I want to design my own 'course' on UFW as an example doctormo <doctormo> cprofitt: sounds good <bodhizazen> For example, one of many, I want this application : http://www.smartmusic.com/ <doctormo> power885: The best place to start is getting to grips with python, if you can do some useful things in a script and fromt he python shell then you can learn packaging and deployment for your python programs. <bodhizazen> it is a music program to teach violin, and others, to children <bodhizazen> it will not run on Linux <pwnguin> once audio works on linux <pwnguin> stuff like that might be doable <bodhizazen> so I do not really want the open source community blabbing to me about booting Vista to run it <bodhizazen> pwnguin: It runs in wine <cprofitt> bodhizazen, I agree <bodhizazen> but functionality is limited <cprofitt> I just wish OS X was open source <pwnguin> osx is half open <cprofitt> then... <bodhizazen> the wine drives do not recognize the microphone for example <cprofitt> pwnguin, not the important parts <doctormo> bodhizazen: Yes, I understand, it's a tightrope walk I won't deny. But I wouldn't reject FOSS politics because they don't disapear just because of your need. You have to be able to hold more than one idea and goal at the same time. <pwnguin> but im guessing you're not interested in the darwin part <doctormo> Especially as a community leader <bodhizazen> I do not personally have any problem with that doctormo <cprofitt> pwnguin, when talking about apps like bodhizazen is... the darwin part does not help <pwnguin> music tutors? <pwnguin> which part of OSX has that? <bodhizazen> I think people need to stop thinking of open source as free as in free beer <doctormo> bodhizazen: Perhaps if you can form a solid community of users with a strong desire to FOSSate that functionality you can some how fund development of an alternative between you. <power885> doctormo:can u plz tell me name of good book so dat i can master it as fast as possible <bodhizazen> I have no respect for the free as in free beer arguremnt <bodhizazen> we need free as in freedom <doctormo> At the moment, as Stallman says, your divided and conqured. <bodhizazen> and if that means I pay developers to code I am OK with that <cprofitt> bodhizazen, I agree -- Free = freedom not 'no cost' <bodhizazen> And if people take the code and re-comile I am OK with that too <doctormo> power885: http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Python-Mark-Lutz/dp/0596009259 <pwnguin> what about dive into python? <bodhizazen> I consider myself an advocate for open source <doctormo> bodhizazen: You must have been reading my recent blog posts about funding then? <pwnguin> http://www.diveintopython.org/ <bodhizazen> but not to the point where I can not run a closed source program, that is just silly <doctormo> bodhizazen: I don't know why you do, I consider myself an advocate of Free and Open Source Software FOSS, not just the devel method. <bodhizazen> and certainly not to the point where I can not user a closed source program to accomplish day to day tasks <pwnguin> open source is a strategy for improving the quality of software than would otherwise be produced <bodhizazen> I think the disagreement comes when the open source community starts dictating what I can run <bodhizazen> what business is it what application I use ? <doctormo> bodhizazen: Indervidual choices and social consiquences, it's one of those tricky group problems. <pwnguin> people eschew closed software are worshiping a false idol; if open source produces crappy software, there's no point <bodhizazen> It is not a choice unless there is more then one option <doctormo> bodhizazen: I use the nvidia closed driver, but I put money into the novou driver to replace it because while my use is required right now, I'm prepared to try and dig everyone else out of the mess too. <pwnguin> anyways, none of this has much to do with the state of ubuntu-learning <bodhizazen> it is not as if the open source community has an application like SmartMusic <bodhizazen> to you can not call it a choice <doctormo> cprofitt: feedback for you: [21:44] <guinea-pig> doctormo: okay, but first, to view the link i have to 1) create an account and then 2) now the link merely asks if i want to enrol (sic) in the course, but doesn't tell me anything about it. <bodhizazen> It is only a choice when the open source community has an option - call it OpenMusic <bodhizazen> then one can choose OpenMusic vs SmartMusic <pwnguin> doctormo: part of the reason for that is a historically shitty sound system and fake sound cards <doctormo> bodhizazen: The first thing that is required is a solid design of the features required out of the program. It's dificult for you to drum up interest in a replacement project with solid specifics. <bodhizazen> Why is it my responsibility to drum up interest ? <bodhizazen> It is not <bodhizazen> I am happy with the product I have <doctormo> bodhizazen: It's your responsbility to a) serve your own needs and b) prevent harm to others. <pwnguin> if you build it, they will come <bodhizazen> It is your interest to change my behavior <bodhizazen> and that is different <pwnguin> doctormo: since the subject isn't changing, i have a proposal <Vantrax> doctormo, the announcement is now waiting on a proper theme, hopefully ill have something temp done this week <pwnguin> doctormo: Direct Funding of Google SoC-like projects <doctormo> Vantrax: are you working on a theme or am I? <Vantrax> both:P <doctormo> pwnguin: direct funding of any projects would be much better <Vantrax> im doing a hack job >.< <doctormo> Vantrax: I don't even have a devel to work from, I tried hacking the css and utterly failed <doctormo> scrapped it <pwnguin> doctormo: the challenge appears to be paperwork <bodhizazen> IMO it is the open source community who has the responsibility <pwnguin> surely, there are 5 people out there willing to pay 1000 each to see inkscape's diagram tool improved <doctormo> pwnguin: indeed, organisation, reputationed and authoritative esrco and a cultural shift away from leaching and towards seeding. <bodhizazen> If they want to challenge the closed source community they need to look at what and how they provide a product and match it <pwnguin> doctormo: i dont see a cultural shift so much as a vacuum <doctormo> bodhizazen: You ARE a PART of the open source community. The resposibility is yours. <Vantrax> dont worry doctormo im sure I can hack up the CSS, ive done it before for Joomla and its not too different <bodhizazen> not so doctormo <doctormo> Who is this 'they' you keep on mentioning. <Vantrax> I could use some pretty graphics later tho <bodhizazen> They is the open source community <doctormo> Vantrax: Yes but I want to apply my style and design skill to the problem :-( can you hack up a css and some stand alone html pages that can be used to drop in? <doctormo> Vantrax: so instead of working on a theme, work on a devel enviroment for me <Vantrax> lol <Vantrax> no I cant do that, but I know enough about css that i can visualise how it looks and edit it blind:P <doctormo> bodhizazen: What makes you think the open source community is such a coherent entity that 1) you are not a member of it and 2) it bares any resposibility at all? <bodhizazen> Just because I am a part of the open source community does not mean I have the kind of responsibilities you are pushing on me :) <bodhizazen> It is you who are pushing responsibility, not I <doctormo> Vantrax: All it would take it saving off each page and merging the resulting directories and css files. <Vantrax> the problem with doing that for this situation is the theme assumes that there are all sorts of calls not there unless your running moodle <Vantrax> so the layout is actually defined partly by moodle, not by the theme <doctormo> bodhizazen: I'm not actually pushing, I'm showing you were the burden lies already, I'm not moving a thing, I'm trying to reveal to you the status. <bodhizazen> I am perfectly happy to use a closed source application where no open source option exists <pwnguin> doctormo: the nouveau pledge drive demonstrated, i think, a community's willingness to pay. it may have also demonstrated the inability to organize <bodhizazen> and it is the open source community, ie you and stallman, who feel I am doing something immoral <doctormo> pwnguin: I leanred a lot from organising that ;-) <pwnguin> transaction costs are brutal <doctormo> pwnguin: yep <doctormo> bodhizazen: I and Stallman are not in the open source community <emacs> doctormo :thanks alot and after studying python den what should i do <bodhizazen> well, it is you now telling me I can not use a closed source application and that I have some kind of responsibilty to some kind of community <bodhizazen> define it how you wish <pwnguin> emacs: study zope and apache <bodhizazen> once you define the terms we can use them consistantly, according to your definition <bodhizazen> but please do not shift terms or argue semantics with me ;) <bodhizazen> my definition is simple <bodhizazen> I prefer open source apps, I think we know what that means <pwnguin> hmm. i guess dive into python isn't a good beginner book <emacs> <pwnguin>:zope??am hearing for first time wats that <doctormo> bodhizazen: You've already been corrected on which communities you put Stallman in and I already explained what I'm in. Stallman is Free Software and I'm FOSS. not open source. <bodhizazen> When no open source app is available I use close source <doctormo> It's not symantics <pwnguin> emacs: it's a set of python tools to build websites <bodhizazen> whatever you say doctormo <emacs> ok <bodhizazen> I still use closed source apps and there is still nothing wrong with that <doctormo> I can't force people to consider their community or be kind and thoughtful about what they do in that context, obviously we all have our needs. But please, I think you've been pushed into some sort of corner and are fighting an argument I'm not making. <bodhizazen> what community are we talking about doctormo ? <pwnguin> In an ideal world, a highly competitive market for software would exist <bodhizazen> mine ? <bodhizazen> yours ? <bodhizazen> open source <bodhizazen> FOSS > <pwnguin> instead, we have exactly 1 smartmusic <doctormo> bodhizazen: Are you not a leader in Ubuntu in several respects as well as being on this board? <bodhizazen> Are we talking about the moodle project ? <doctormo> The moodle project? no, this is Ubuntu Learning. <emacs> <pwnguin>actually i also want to study kernel development...but i dont no wer i hav to start <emacs> can u plz guide me <pwnguin> emacs: in that case <pwnguin> heh * pwnguin used to TA for Operating systems <doctormo> emacs: you want to be into kernel development? <pwnguin> emacs: tell me about your academic background <emacs> ya <bodhizazen> I am talking about using a closed source application when no open source application is avilable, whatever community that make me in your definition I do not know <emacs> actually am btech in cs <pwnguin> btech? <emacs> BE <bodhizazen> and you , or FOSS, or stallman, or microsoft, or whoever is telling me I am somehow wrong ;) <bodhizazen> for any variety of self interetst <pwnguin> this sounds like either a foreign degree, or a bullshit domestic degree ;) <bodhizazen> but I do not buy into any of that <pwnguin> anyways <emacs> <pwnguin> Engineering grad in cs <pwnguin> emacs: so have you studied computer architecture? <bodhizazen> I buy into , It is my computer, and so long as I am not violating any laws , I can run what I please for whatever reason I wish <bodhizazen> and that decision harms no one :) <bodhizazen> whatever groups you want to define from that , be my guest <pwnguin> emacs: fundamentally, a kernel is the glue between normal programs and computer hardware. to do this, you need to know about the concrete fundamentals of computers. <emacs> to be frank i was just lazy...i havent go to dat depth..but after using linux system am very much interseted <pwnguin> emacs: if you've completed coursework in CS, and have an understanding of C, then I reccommend the minix book <pwnguin> it has chapters on computer architecture, kernel design <emacs> basics in C <emacs> ok <pwnguin> and it has actual homework <emacs> ok can u plz give me d name of that book <pwnguin> i'll give you a referral link <emacs> ok <doctormo> bodhizazen: Are we not because of our community? do we not thrive when our brothers and sisters thrive? Why have you run into your computer, slamming the door and brandished your spear to the rest of the community that is _trying_ to help you? why do you not want to be a part of the community that you are a part of? do you not like being human? <pwnguin> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0131429388?ie=UTF8&tag=jlduggesblog-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0131429388 <pwnguin> that's the minix 3 book <bodhizazen> what community are we talking about now doctormo ? <pwnguin> i have the minix 2 book, but minix 3 is modernized as i understand it <bodhizazen> what is "our community" <pwnguin> minix is the book that torvalds read before writing linux <doctormo> bodhizazen: You would exlude people from your community? <bodhizazen> and why is "our community" so intolerant ? <bodhizazen> I am not sure I wish to be associated with such an intolerant community <doctormo> bodhizazen: They don't like social harm, I can't say I blame them. <Vantrax> bodhizazen: that intolerance actually does alot of harm <cprofitt> bodhizazen, doctormo um... are we going in circles? <bodhizazen> a community which monitors what I run on my computer ? <bodhizazen> no thank you <pwnguin> of course it's going in circles. you don't resolve things like "free software" vs "good software" on IRC <cprofitt> People should be free to choose what software they want or need <doctormo> cprofitt: possibly, but this is interesting. <Vantrax> As someone who uses alot of linux, i use both FOSS, and closed applications. A fair bit of the reason is just that FOSS doesnt cut it in alot of areas and a free closed source solution is better <Vantrax> who is to say I shouldnt use the better solution? <emacs> <pwnguin>ok after going through dis book ....wat should i do...from wer i hav to start ma journey <bodhizazen> doctormo: you have not specified what community you are referring to <doctormo> There are two right answers but it requires that your able to think in two different modes. <pwnguin> emacs: just how long do you think it's going to take? <cprofitt> perhaps we should talk about Ubuntu One * cprofitt runs and hides <Vantrax> ... bad cprofitt <doctormo> cprofitt: I used to work on that ;-) lets not <pwnguin> emacs: this book is grad level material; and without a guide, it'll take a while. once you go through the book, go through it again1 <pwnguin> ! <pwnguin> it has plenty of references to reading materials <doctormo> bodhizazen: The community I refer to is the Ubuntu community, part of that community is FOSS and all the politics and social perspectivies that comes with it. <cprofitt> Lets just say I like all of you guys... <cprofitt> and I respect all of your opinions <cprofitt> but I reserve the right to have my own opinions <emacs> as fast as possible.....am just thrilled to start with kernal programming. <cprofitt> and the only company I hate with a venom is Apple <pwnguin> emacs: you should plan on spending at least two or three months on it <Vantrax> doctormo: Ubuntu is not FOSS, not in the strictest definition <pwnguin> emacs: i hope you werent trying to fake it until you make it or something <cprofitt> though Apple did lower the 'entry' point $$$ for their MacBook Pro <doctormo> That's the phraise I was after: Social Perspective, the right answer is considering both your self perspective and your social perspective. when they are in conflict as in the closed source question then sometimes the answer is to try and solve one while accepting the other. <emacs> pwnguin :sorry i cant get u <bodhizazen> so is there a consensus in this commuinty that I am wrong to use a closed source application, or is that an opinion of FOSS, or a smaller group of individuals, or just doctormo ? <doctormo> Vantrax: I said part, besides Ubuntu holds the correct perspectives, they don't encourage none FOSS development do they? I'd argue that that made FOSS a core principle of the culture. <Vantrax> Ubuntu exists to make Linux successfull in the home, workstation, and server markets. Its goal is not to be FOSS, but it is to be Free. <pwnguin> emacs: I think you have deadline you're not mentioning to us. Did you promise somebody you'd do something without knowing how to do it at the time? <doctormo> bodhizazen: No, your right to use the closed source app, your wrong to not think about the posibilities and weigh up the costs of a viable replacement to serve yourself and others in the community. <doctormo> Instead of considering the community as some other external thing that has all the responsiblity <bodhizazen> why am I wrong and who says so ? <bodhizazen> do you speak for yourself ? <Vantrax> doctormo: just there you made a huge assumption <bodhizazen> FOSS ? <doctormo> Vantrax: I know <bodhizazen> the ubuntu community ? <bodhizazen> I think you speak now for yourself <doctormo> This is like trying to educate someone in the art of zen, unless you see the new horizon it won't make sense. <Vantrax> doctormo: you just assumed that it is the responcibility of every person using Ubuntu to be part of the community, and to contribute and give back to it <cprofitt> doctormo, speaking of Zen with bodhizazen may be a mistake <bodhizazen> and you are trying to use the greater ubuntu community as a venue to push your opinion <emacs> <pwnguin>no will put day and night to get this knowledge..am very happy dat somebody is der to help <bodhizazen> You are not speaking for the Ubuntu community <doctormo> Vantrax: Those not involved in the community are invisible to it, bodhizazen is not invisible in this community is he? <bodhizazen> you may be speaking for yourself <bodhizazen> who do you speak for doctormo ? <bodhizazen> who or what group is speaking when you tell me I am wrong ? <Vantrax> doctormo: I can see where you are coming from, and you are right that people should evaluate FOSS solutions as well as free, and propriatary solutions, but adding in an implicit demand to do so is wrong <bodhizazen> what horizon is this ? <cprofitt> doctormo, there are many ways to give back are there not? <cprofitt> using one 'non Free Software' app is not a cardinal sin, or is it? <bodhizazen> and what makes you think it is "better" or that I owe it something ? <Vantrax> if it is.. im screwed:P <emacs> <pwnguin> hello u der?? <pwnguin> emacs: yes <doctormo> Did I make a demand? no, I said that it was socially harmful to not consider the community and social perspectivies, I didn't say people should be hung for ignoring that perspective. <Vantrax> yes, that statement is correct <bodhizazen> So you are speaking for yourself ? <doctormo> cprofitt: no it's not wrong to use clsoe source, I use them myself <cprofitt> bodhizazen, I think I see what he is saying... <Vantrax> the implication of a requirement to is the problem <cprofitt> he is just not sure that you weighed the options... <bodhizazen> if so, then please do not add in FOSS, the ubuntu community , or me as a part of your community of one <cprofitt> and you are coming from a person slamming Mono because of his mis-perceptions <Vantrax> bodhizazen: chill bud:P hes expressing a valid opinion,
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