#ubuntu-us-wi 2011-09-01 <h00k> twopoint718: yo <Cheesehead> Ah, perhaps I'm finally getting the hang og irssi settings and screen usage. <Cheesehead> og not. Hasn't helped my spellng. <h00k> Cheesehead: I saw you....logged in as root earlier! <Cheesehead> Yup. <Cheesehead> Did I learn for that experience? <Cheesehead> /for/from <h00k> Hah <Cheesehead> Perhaps I will do *everything* as root for a day or two. With my fumbly fingers, what could go wrong? <h00k> O.O good idea. <h00k> it's okay, you have backups... <h00k> yes? <Cheesehead> What's a backup? * Cheesehead washes his car AS ROOT muah ha ha ha * Cheesehead pyas the eclectric bill AS ROOT muah ha ha ha <Cheesehead> Dang. That typo just cost me $40. * Cheesehead goes back to being an ordinary user. <Cheesehead> Hooray! Just tried detaching irssi screen, logout of ssh session, log back in, re-attach irssi screen. <Cheesehead> At last, my announced presence in this channel is irrelevant! <Cheesehead> Well, slightly more irrelevant. <h00k> :D <twopoint718> running as root: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/02/24/bofh_2006_episode_8/ (funny) <mikeputnam> "So of course I'm sporting a headache that measures 'Kurt Cobain' on the pain scale and instead of easing it with some hair of the dog I have to sit through the inane drivel of a man who knows as much about linux as Princess Grace did about mountain driving..." <mikeputnam> "It seems you were right after all" <mikeputnam> "What do you mean?" <mikeputnam> "About a silly typing error causing problems" <mikeputnam> "How" <mikeputnam> "Well I logged in as root earlier and I was just going to try that ps thing you mentioned, but instead I accidentally typed in 'nohup cd /; rm -rf * > /dev/null 2>&1 &' " * Cheesehead hates when he types that by accident <mikeputnam> especially with that dangling carrot of nohup <Cheesehead> I figured out that I *can* do most things as root. Just not on the computer. #ubuntu-us-wi 2011-09-02 <lostson_> tornado sirens went off here in kimberly * mikeputnam Membership renewed until 2012-09-08. * Cheesehead also renewed membership today <Cheesehead> Event reminder - Milwaukee Ubuntu Hour, 6 PM. http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/ubuntu-us-wisconsin/1093/detail/ * Cheesehead just sent Global Jam events reminder to the mailing list <ripps> If anybody has any packaging questions during the Jam, just ask me <Cheesehead> ripps: Thanks <Cheesehe1d> The Milwaukee Ubuntu Hour Begins! <Cheesehe1d> Now I have a reason to enable internet logins to my irssi machine - 'Cheesehe1d' sound like I have a cold * Cheesehe1d noticed that the battery meter tirned yellow, and plugs in the laptop * Cheesehe1d 's battery is back up to 60% * Cheesehe1d 's battery is back up to 84% <Cheesehe1d> Thanks everyone for coming. <Cheesehe1d> #endUbuntuHour #ubuntu-us-wi 2011-09-03 <Cheesehead> Brainstorm Jam begins in four hours <lostson> wish I was gonna be around but got to work <Cheesehead> lostson: We'll miss you. <Cheesehead> Two confirmed gonna-miss-it so far. <Cheesehead> But what do I expect midday of a holiday weekend? <lostson> yeah unfortunately i am on a 12 day run of work and the storm that just ripped through this county didnt help either <Cheesehead> More storms on the way today... <lostson> hopefully not as bad today * Cheesehead hopes for the largest turnout tomorrow for the IRC Bug Jam at noon CDT <lostson> yeah i wanted to get in on that one bigtime i love doing stuff like that <Cheesehead> You know, if there is interest enough, we can *always* do a second session of these events <Cheesehead> Just propose a time <lostson> thats true <Cheesehead> The way I structure stuff works best with three or more people, since there is a lot of discussion. <Cheesehead> So we need an alternate time, and (ideally) two other participants * Cheesehead sent an e-mail reminder of the Brainstorm Jam <lostson> just got it <lostson> i will have to read the logs when I get back and catch up tonight after work <lostson> well time to get ready for work hope you all have fun today and get a great turnout! <Cheesehead> lostson: Thanks. <h00k> hi <h00k> I'm on my phone <h00k> Cheesehead, lostson <h00k> hanging out in # ubuntu-locoteams, too <Cheesehead> Brainstorm Triage Jam will begin in this channel at 1700 UTC (1200 CDT). http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/ubuntu-us-wisconsin/1177/detail/ <h00k> hiii <h00k> ntop <h00k> bah <Cheesehead> stop ntopping me <h00k> heh <h00k> trying to change topic <h00k> bad idea on mobile * Cheesehead goes off to load the dishwasher <h00k> Did you see the email I sent? <Cheesehead> The one that said you wouldn't be around? <Cheesehead> The one that said you love your *family* more than a bunch of anonymous internet geeks? <h00k> lol <h00k> yrp! <h00k> yep! <Cheesehead> No. I haven't seen it. <h00k> I <h00k> http://planet.ubuntu.com/ <h00k> there we are <h00k> ok. may lose service <h00k> apostle islands :D <h00k> good luck, maybe I'LL be able top attend <Cheesehead> h00k: Thanks. I think we'll hace a good time. <Cheesehead> Brainstorm Triage Jam will begin in this channel in 5 min. http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/ubuntu-us-wisconsin/1177/detail/ <Cheesehead> Training session will be in this channel. Non-training triage will be in #ubuntu-brainstorm <yotux> Cheesehead: Thanks for the info <Cheesehead> Hello, everyone here for the Brainstorm Triage Jam. <Cheesehead> Activity in this channel is logged - you can get the logs at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/09/03/%23ubuntu-us-wi#t17:00 <Cheesehead> Let's see how many participants we have here. Could everyone active in this channel please give a response? <yotux> Here <Cheesehead> Anyone else for the Brainstorm Jam? <crog> I'll come along for the ride <Cheesehead> Welcome abord <Cheesehead> aborad <Cheesehead> ab...you know what i mean <crog> yeah <Cheesehead> Anyone want the long lecure about what Brainstorm is, what it does, and how it helps Ubuntu (dafault =no) * Cheesehead curses his fumbly fingers <Cheesehead> There are three goals here today: <Cheesehead> 1) Meet new people and have fun <Cheesehead> 2) Learn more about how the various projects/teams/communities work together <Cheesehead> 3) Figure out how the next step for some ideas to improve Ubuntu. <Cheesehead> All abilities are welcome, no experience necessary. <yotux> ok <Cheesehead> yotux: What do you feel your strengths are in Ubuntu? <Cheesehead> (crog, you get the same question next) <yotux> I have send some bug reports, I try and run alphas, try and support the corp side of con. <Cheesehead> Wonderful. Crog? <crog> used since about 05 - know my way around package management pretty well <crog> haven't any experience directly with packaging however <Cheesehead> Let's take a look at http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/26681/ <Cheesehead> Give you a moment to read it... <crog> hmmm - I guess I mostly agree w/ Soln 3 - <yotux> I second that <crog> but what I think would really help with this is if a tool could seamlessly manage backups/restores <Cheesehead> Question: Is the problem really a problem at all? <crog> or if there is a way to "try out" a setting first. <crog> Cheesehead: good question <yotux> I think that it is not a problem <yotux> if your are playing in etc files you should already know the dangers <Cheesehead> Perhaps this user hosed an /etc file, and didn't know how to reinstall? <crog> in a typical *nix env - this is setup by an admin for you <Cheesehead> ...the package <yotux> when using the cmd user are always suggested to rename to .bak' <crog> but in a desktop environment - the noob becomes the admin <crog> Whether they have the experience or not. <Cheesehead> If they are new, is it likely they will be playing in /etc? <crog> yotux: yeah - that's the way to do it. I could envision a gui that does that for you. <crog> Cheesehead: probably no <yotux> when new to a os -- maybe find a mentor before running into cmd? <Cheesehead> If I were in a help forum, I would tell the user to apt-get reinstall the package. That should solve the problem, no? <yotux> Cheesehead: I don't think etc is the first stop <yotux> Cheesehead: not <yotux> that command doesn't purge config files does it? <Cheesehead> True, but apt-get purge foo; apt-get install foo should do it. <Cheesehead> Also, to hose an /etc file, wouldn't they need to be abusing sudo? <yotux> Cheesehead: yes <crog> Cheesehead: yes and yes <Cheesehead> This happens a lot in Brainstorm - "somebody else" should write a GUI... <Cheesehead> that replaces a simple command line <crog> Cheesehead: So - we have different ideas, but generally agree this isn't a problem <crog> Cheesehead: there are ways it could be made more noob friendly - but probably not the resources to focus on this right now <Cheesehead> Agreed. I will mark it so a bit later. <crog> Cheesehead: ultimately, what's the goal of our triage? <Cheesehead> Good question... <Cheesehead> If you fellows were noobs, it would be to train you about how Ubuntu works... <Cheesehead> but instead, let me cut-and-paste a better goal: <Cheesehead> HOW YOU ARE HELPING: Some ideas don't belong in Brainstorm. You are helping teach those submitters the correct venue, and teaching them more about Ubuntu. <Cheesehead> You are starting them down the yellow brick road. <Cheesehead> Also, you are contributing to the real ideas that need solutions and comments. <Cheesehead> Finally, you are making the Technical Board's job easier. They shouldn't need to wade through bugs and wishes to find real issues. * Cheesehead didn't know he could type that fast! <crog> Given this isn't a bug, it's a wish - and "brainstorm" connotes a place to make improvement suggestions - it's probably where I would have thought something like this belonged. <crog> I wouldn't file a bug <crog> I suppose I would try a bit of googling and forums before posting here thought <Cheesehead> I think we agreed it's not a bug... <crog> though <Cheesehead> but it's not really a problem either... <Cheesehead> in this case, the submitter probably can't come up with a valid use case... <Cheesehead> so there's not much for a developer wot work with. <crog> ahhh - good point <yotux> Cheesehead: To me it came to self accountability <Cheesehead> yotux: Precisely. <Cheesehead> Let's look at a fresh one: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/28471/ <Cheesehead> One goal of triage is to direct the submitter to the most appropriate venue. <Cheesehead> How are they supposed to know if nobody tells them? <yotux> I think that this would be something to bring up in the art work group? <Cheesehead> Possibly, though they deal with static stuff. <Cheesehead> Fade is more likely a light-dm or compiz issue, I should think. <crog> I guess I'm at a loss with this one... <crog> yeah - I was thinking compiz <yotux> ok <Cheesehead> So, essentailly, 'Go talk to compiz about it' <yotux> Cheesehead: since its already a feature we should not need to create a duplicate feature <Cheesehead> Agreed <yotux> by feature I mean it is something we can already do <Cheesehead> Another reason for them to talk to Compiz, I read this as a refinement of the existing login <Cheesehead> rather than a new feature <yotux> Cheesehead: thanks we are thinking along the same lines <Cheesehead> I must spend a few minutes googling a Compiz point of contact to refer them to...later <Cheesehead> crog, what do you think? <crog> If I didn't know there was a piece of software called "compiz" that handles the visual stuff <crog> And my system didn't already display this behavior <crog> I probalby wouldn't know where to look <crog> So it's back to what you said ont he last one <crog> Its an opportunity to reply and try to educate <yotux> I agree <Cheesehead> Agreed <Cheesehead> http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/28468/ <Cheesehead> I thought this one was interesting <Cheesehead> Streches your brain a bit doesn't it? <crog> I'm not sure I understand - doesn't that require a cell tower or GPS? <crog> Is the person working on a tablet? <Cheesehead> Siderial time merely requires a clock and an ephemeris <Cheesehead> Or algorithms to simulate an ephemeris <Cheesehead> Or...a sundial <yotux> your solution makes sense, I would say it needs to be updated to work with current software set <crog> I guess I was confusing this (which I don't quite understnd) with a location-based service <yotux> crog: location base can also you ip addresses <crog> Yeah - you post helps some developer who can pick up the algorithm (already done), and make it work in Unity <yotux> I agress with crog <Cheesehead> Clarification: Sidereal time (solar time) is the time shown by a sundial instead of a clock <yotux> Cheesehead: could / should one refer the submitter to the current package manager of the package? <Cheesehead> Well, would that help the submitter? <yotux> I say yes <Cheesehead> What does the submitter want (in simple terms?) <crog> submitter want's an app <yotux> Cheesehead: he wants a package that exist, but is not current <crog> current package maintainer may not be insterested in "porting" <Cheesehead> The package is current, just incompatible with his chosen desktop environment <yotux> I am not sure how much unity is be cross ported to XFCE and others <Cheesehead> So, is this an App request, a porting request, or something else? <yotux> I would vote porting <Cheesehead> And is this something the submitter needs to do more legwork on, or is this ready for a developer to tackle? <yotux> Submitter needs to do leg work and possibly make a follow up post <Cheesehead> What kind of legwork? <yotux> I would start by contacting the current package maintainer, see if there is an interest in porting <Cheesehead> That is a good start. <yotux> From there its up to the submitter were he want to take it <Cheesehead> What about extracting the LMT algorithms to a separate lib? <crog> from a dev point of view, that's the most useful <crog> you could incorporate that into other apps, or build your own gui <Cheesehead> I see two approaches, taken together: <yotux> could do this, but it may be beyond their skill set <Cheesehead> Approach the package maintainer about the posibility of a port or lib-creation <Cheesehead> And approach Unity about the adding the feature if such a port or lib became available <yotux> agreed <Cheesehead> The submitter's role is 100% leadership and cajoling, it seems to me. <yotux> Since it does exist yes I agree <crog> may be off topic - who is the "typical submitter" in brainstorm? <Cheesehead> Great question <Cheesehead> Often a new user. <Cheesehead> But sometimes highly experienced or a developer. <Cheesehead> New users ideas tend toward "create a big new application" <Cheesehead> or "make it more like what I was used to on Win/OSX" <komputes> Hello to all from Montreal <Cheesehead> hey, komputes1 <Cheesehead> hey, komputes! <yotux> hello, komputes <Cheesehead> Okay, next one: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/28474/ <komputes> yotux: sup Nathan <crog> Cheesehead: sorry - it's not loading for me... <Cheesehead> checking... <yotux> Cheesehead: This is a large and interesting goal <Cheesehead> works for me. Perhaps the server was briefly busy. <yotux> Cheesehead: There needs to be allot of legal work for the submitter <Cheesehead> Well, I suspect Canonical and Google would want to hammer out the legal details themselves. <crog> I don' know google docs <yotux> Google, canonical would have to agree to share api resources <Cheesehead> yotux: That's a great comment, though. I hadn't thought of it. <Cheesehead> yotux: Yeah, so there's a contract involved <Cheesehead> Would Google be interested in such a deal? <Cheesehead> What would Google get out of it? <yotux> Google docs is changing API allot, ubuntu 1 is corp baby (project) <yotux> both services offer storage space for sale <crog> is having them synced without a PC core to the suggestion? <Cheesehead> crog: I read it so. <crog> I'd consider writing some sort of script/app to talk to both services, and put in in cron <Cheesehead> Excellent workaround! <yotux> crog: they want to have all things synced between servers <yotux> crog: my read was they don't want to have to sync services with local machine <Cheesehead> Beyond talking to Ubuntu One to convince them to miestone such a feature, is there really anything else the submitter can do? <crog> Ok - so as before - it's hard for a dev to act on this one <yotux> yes agreed <Cheesehead> Since there are some rich comments (legal, API changes, etc), <yotux> I see the only option for submitter is to ask <Cheesehead> I'm tempted to leave this open for a month or so and see what other comments come in <Cheesehead> That's one of the benefits of Brainstorm * Cheesehead stands up and stretches his brain <Cheesehead> Ah, good. I had a kink in that right frontal lobe. <Cheesehead> Next: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/28453/ <yotux> This is a OEM type install question <yotux> I have never used this install case but it would fall into that area / Team <Cheesehead> Yes. How does Ubuntu currently handle such? <yotux> When I download the image it installed a lang pack <Cheesehead> This kind of request pops up every year or so <Cheesehead> It's generally a new-user <Cheesehead> 'Make it like it was on Win/OSX' <yotux> Not sure how to configure packages and system with lang pack installed <yotux> It could be refereed to the OEM team but that not our pack. Submitter needs to ask OEM install team <Cheesehead> Since System76 manages to sell systems with Ubuntu installed, is this really an issue? <yotux> No <Cheesehead> I suspect we don;t know enough about what the user *really* wants <Cheesehead> Is the user really an OEM? <yotux> and if so should he not spend his own resources <crog> Yeah - I was trying to guess what he wanted to do with this. <crog> yotux: that's exactly what I thought <yotux> so ask for more info and make a more informed not an issue <komputes> Cheesehead: I would change the rationale here to, there is no easy way to install Ubuntu OEM (preinstall). Then in the Solution put 1) make OEM image release 2) use a flag on ubiquity to make it run in OEM mode <Cheesehead> Very possible. But still, do we have a use case to justify developer time? <komputes> Cheesehead: currently, I'm being told, that the alternate disk has this option already <Cheesehead> There we go! * Cheesehead laughs <komputes> Cheesehead: when you boot the CD, press a key to bring up the menu, then I think it's F6 to get the menu which says OEM install <Cheesehead> Man, whenever you're around I *learn things* <yotux> komputes: its something like that <Cheesehead> You guys are filling my brain! <crog> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Ubuntu_OEM_Installer_Overview <yotux> I use alt CD allot <yotux> crog: thanks <Cheesehead> crog: Thanks! <Cheesehead> Next: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/28401/ <komputes> It's actually F4 <Cheesehead> Um, skip the comments. Let's see what you think unvarnished <crog> I guess that's a good reminder that the discussion is helpful - and search may be moreso <Cheesehead> Yes, LOTS of Brainstorm issues are settles by 10 seconds with a search engine. <crog> And I'll never understand all of the *.dll's in windows/system32 <komputes> Cheesehead: I marked it implemented and added the comment on how to get er dun <yotux> ok this is not an issue for a non power user <Cheesehead> komputes: Thanks! <Cheesehead> crog: Great point - nobody knows everything! I sure don't know williamsmith@example.net. <Cheesehead> I've just been hanging around a while. <komputes> nobody knows everything... but collectively... <crog> My point of course is that something as complicated as an OS has a lot of good reasons for why things are the way they are. <Cheesehead> crog: Another great point. <Cheesehead> A lot of new users don't know those reasons. That ties right into this idea. <komputes> Are you guys on a boat? IdleOne says hi. <Cheesehead> Any thoughts on http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/28401/ <Cheesehead> ? <crog> The discussion in that idea has been ongoing <yotux> I don't see that there needs to be a whole rewrite of structure <crog> It's not something anyone's going to want to change <yotux> This could be sent to software center <Cheesehead> Is it really a problem? <yotux> but it we want a list of installed software it show in SC <yotux> It a windows / OSX issue <crog> how do you just close/nuke it? <yotux> our issue I would say no <crog> and still thank Sman789 for the idea/time... <crog> No - it's core to pretty much any Linix distro - and most all of their predecessors <Cheesehead> Well, I read it as the submitter is asking for a kind of Nautilus filter to find application-specific files <crog> Cheesehead: I may not be on the same one anymore... <crog> 28401? <Cheesehead> 28401 <crog> Ahhh - this is a feature I find most useful, but hard to get to. <Cheesehead> I read solution #1 as "use a magic wand". A bit unrealistic, and the author even agrees. <yotux> I have used linux for a long time, not a power user, the only thing diff is ubuntuy has no root <crog> When you go into synaptic (if you use that) - for installed packages, you can see the details of what's installed, and where. <crog> While I wouldn't suggest changing anything, I think this is the sort of information the submitter is looking for. <Cheesehead> crog: I suspect it's implied that he finds that too cumbersome <Cheesehead> I thought of installing in a chroot, but again that may be too cumbersome for whatever he wants to do <crog> I do too - I shouldn't need to go into my package manager app for that if the database were more accessable <crog> as you say - to something like Nautilus <Cheesehead> Which raises the question: What does he want to do with this feature? <crog> Right - probalby needs a better use case laid out <Cheesehead> Okay, so let's say a fabulous use case shows up. What's his next step? <crog> ... package his own distro? <crog> <only 1/2 serious> <Cheesehead> Well, if he backs off Solution #1 and is willing to accept, say, a Nautilus plug-in that queries the apt database... <Cheesehead> then how about suggesting such a plug-in to Gnome? <Cheesehead> Alternately... <Cheesehead> a nautilus plug-in may be small enough that he can hack at it himself <crog> agreed <Cheesehead> Since other solutions are possible, how about... <Cheesehead> 1) ask the author to clarify the use case, <Cheesehead> 2) add another solution (Nautilus plug-in) <yotux> I agree, but I don't understand why he finds the need to be in a /usr/ file place <Cheesehead> Agreed <crog> I still would want more info about what he's trying to accomplish - and what's meant by, "frequently-used folders are so scary" <crog> What's the frequent usage? <yotux> most apps create .foo configs in /home/user <Cheesehead> Seems to go back to usage/use case clarification <yotux> yes, need more info <Cheesehead> 3) leave it open a month to gauge reacton and other solutions, then send the submitter on his way <Cheesehead> Since nobody is likely to develop it for him. <crog> After reading solution 2 again - maybe it's a "uninstall" vs "purge" question. <crog> Yep - 1,2,3 as Cheesehead suggests. <Cheesehead> OOh, another cut/paste opportunity: <Cheesehead> ANALOGY - Brainstorm is like the Wizard of Oz, not Glinda the Good Witch. <Cheesehead> Glinda had a magic wand, and could do *anything* effortlessly. <Cheesehead> The Wizard didn't have a magic wand, and pointed supplicants along the path of self-development. <Cheesehead> We don't have a magic wand. <Cheesehead> (It's a limited analogy - we don't send supplicants to be slaves of the Wicked Witch.) <Cheesehead> (My apologies to the billions of non-North Americans unfamiliar with the book or movie) <Cheesehead> Next up: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/27492/ <yotux> cheesehead: I would say use a group to have access /home folder <yotux> a user can be part of a group and a group can have open access to a limited amount of data <yotux> Please correct if I am wrong <Cheesehead> So, Solution #1. <Cheesehead> That's indeed an effective method. <yotux> Thats the easy way <Cheesehead> Is there really a need for a non-root to backup everybody else's stuff? <yotux> I am not sure howto do the deamon method <yotux> no, not a need <crog> I think you're either on a system where the admin backs up everything for you (i.e. I backup my wife's /home - and I have su/root) <yotux> the question makes it sound like root is in need to make backsup of all data but doesn't want to give root access cause of trust <crog> Or, you have a multi user sytem, where each user backs them selves up. <Cheesehead> So is there a clear use case for this feature? <yotux> solution 2 couldn't data be encrypted before sent over the wire? ssh / pgp <crog> If trust is the issue, encrypting before sending is the only way. <yotux> use case is clouded slightly <Cheesehead> Encryption is a great point! <crog> or if problem is trust in the backup program... the answer is open source <yotux> trust to system access is 1st <crog> find a different tool, or read line-by-line the code <crog> or "trust" the community <yotux> solution 2 talks about admin only access data? <yotux> I find that we are taking on two dragons when we started with on problem then solution introduced 2nd <yotux> ask for me details <crog> Yeah - I'm not sure what is being requested <Cheesehead> When the issues metastasize, I go back to the Rationale and the problem statement <Cheesehead> Why would the sysdamin use a backup operator/program that they don't fully trust? <yotux> So if problem is limit sys access then a limited group would work, let encryption be the users problem <yotux> Cheesehead: Admins will not use services they can't trust <Cheesehead> Is this really a problem? <crog> first line says, "difficult to perform" "without su" <yotux> No, user educate <crog> but when I think admin/backup/restore/anything - that requires root <crog> and for good reason <crog> yotux: agreed <yotux> would it require su if you are in a group that has 777 access? <Cheesehead> Could this be a user trying to do something, er, un-recommended, and unhappy that the system balks? <yotux> Cheesehead: yes he could be <crog> If I'm on a multi-user system, I don' want anyone except me or the admin who has root to have access to my /home <Cheesehead> crog: I think you nailed it there! <yotux> crog: I agree with you <Cheesehead> Ah, I like this one: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/27460/ <crog> me too <crog> I've actually read this one before <crog> Yes - it already exists. <crog> should just be made easier to find <Cheesehead> crog: Why? <yotux> This has changed in the last two cycles <yotux> before unity one could click on help -> about <crog> on my android... Settings --> About phone <crog> on an application... Help --> About <Cheesehead> Does anybody run across many help forum requests where the requestor cannot determine their version? <crog> In an OS (Win)... System Information <crog> etc. <crog> I think it's one thing if you need to know 11.04 or Natty <yotux> I am running ubntu 11.10 <yotux> type help <crog> but you might be asked - which version? Which build? <yotux> it tell me welcome to 11.10 <crog> Maybe you're right - it's a change - something I'm not used to. <crog> but I had no problem going from gnome to unity <crog> This seems more like a universal expectation to me. <yotux> the info display is diff in unity that is all I am saying <Cheesehead> So in Unity, it's easy? <yotux> when I am on the desktop and click help about it talks about nautilus <yotux> unity it is more hidden <yotux> easier to find apps yes <yotux> type help the manaul comes up <yotux> for me its says welcome to 11.10 <Cheesehead> The original problem statement was that it's hard to find basic information about the Ubuntu version installed <Cheesehead> Is that a problem? <Cheesehead> Hello, bigbash ! Joining us? <crog> If it means 2 extra posts in a bug report or forum... <Cheesehead> Well, in the bugs and forums you have read...did it? <crog> Cheesehead: good point <yotux> It not hard unless you want a one click solution <crog> It perhaps is not important when stacked up against other bugs, ideas, etc. <crog> but still a good idea. <Cheesehead> So a wishlist issue? <crog> And more people have voted on it than many others...\ <crog> Yes. <Cheesehead> Well, popularity with users does not imply implementation. <crog> wishlist <yotux> Cheesehead: could it be added to the about button in system settings <yotux> yotux: thinking out loud <Cheesehead> If I posted an idea "Hamburgers should be free", it would be popular, but unlikely to happen. <Cheesehead> yotux: Great idea! <yotux> I was playing in the new menu for 11.10 <yotux> System has about but doesn't ref ubuntu at this time <Cheesehead> One issue that pops up is... <yotux> Its called system info <Cheesehead> the desire to minimize patches... <Cheesehead> from upstream. <Cheesehead> Given a choice, the Desktop team would prefer to build-and-go. <crog> suggestion: upstream allows branding - so it's just a file ubuntu (or other distro) adds <crog> doesn't make sense for most apps... but for system info it might <Cheesehead> True. Then somebody must maintain that branding patch. <Cheesehead> Canonical doesn;t want their engineers maintaining a lot of patches. <Cheesehead> When they could be doing more useful work <Cheesehead> That's one possible reason why it hasn;t already been implemented <yotux> It easy access in system monitor <Cheesehead> The flip side of the argument, though, is that it goes to the polish-and-feel of the distro. <Cheesehead> Yes, I like System Monitor <Cheesehead> Next up: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/27441/ <crog> so does the last one just stay open? take a pass? is there a process to dispatch of it? <crog> first - need to state what the problem is we're trying to solve <Cheesehead> We can close it if we want, but that didn't seem the consensus. <Cheesehead> We can recommend to the submitter that they offer to create and maintain such a pach for Nautilus. <yotux> 27441 data control need more info <crog> Cheesehead: 27460 - I'm not suggesting we close it - just curious what the process is <Cheesehead> Or we can leave it open in the hopes that the Technical Board will look at the issue <crog> Cheesehead: its been open, and not acted on - lots of opinions details <yotux> cloud storage user has limited control <crog> Cheesehead: So I supose that's correct - leave it open for someone to consider <Cheesehead> The TB looks at the top-15-or-so scoring ideas each quarter. <Cheesehead> They winnow them down to 10, and respond or act upon them. <crog> 27441 - need to state the problem <yotux> I have used ubuntu one the admins can purge any data they want <crog> and storage on the cloud is inherently giving up control of data <yotux> crog: we agree <Cheesehead> 2447 - I agree that the problem statement is muddled. <yotux> Here is another issue <crog> encryption solves the security or confidence <yotux> the Music store is in question. No music player I have ever used has encrypted music or data <Cheesehead> It's not the music store. That's an error. <Cheesehead> Good eyes! <yotux> .wma may have DRM but that is not of use in this case <Cheesehead> Is this really a problem? <crog> it's not a problem with ubuntu 1 <crog> it's not a problem - a wishlist/nice to have <Cheesehead> He wants to add ecryptfs support to the Ubuntu One client so he doesn;t need to bather with manually encrypring/decrypting <Cheesehead> That's how I see it. Am I far off there? <yotux> Cheesehead: yes <yotux> The data is secured by his user name and pass <crog> I'd maybe suggest doing the encryption as a client-side plugin <crog> I like DarwnSurvivors ideas on this one too. <Cheesehead> My first thought was scripting the encrypt/decrypt should be scripted locally... <Cheesehead> then the client needn;t care about the datatype <yotux> I agree <crog> You're right the encryting/decrypt shouldn't be difficult for the end user to need to do manual steps on each file they want to upload <Cheesehead> Darwin always has a great perspective! <Cheesehead> So...what should we do with this idea? <Cheesehead> Ask for clarification? Add a solution? Leave it open? <yotux> Leave open+ <Cheesehead> (We can do more than one) <crog> Would it be offensive to re-write it in complete English sentences? <yotux> crog: LOL <Cheesehead> Many submitters are not native english speakers <Cheesehead> We made an editorial decision to let grammar slide in favor of the concepts. <crog> absolutely - and no problem that its harder for them. <Cheesehead> I would be *awful* if I tried to write anything in Arabic <crog> I like the idea of choosing concepts over grammer <crog> grammar <yotux> I would rec a two step solution: recommended user encrypt and leave open <crog> I 'm suggesting someone post: "I think you are suggesting ... Does that sound right?" <Cheesehead> We also let people post in *any* language that Google Translate will recognize. Whatever it takes to be clear. <crog> simply to make it easier for others to be certain their understanding the request <yotux> Cheesehead: Thanks for the info <Cheesehead> crog: Great point on clarification <Cheesehead> The consensus seems to be leave open, clarify, and lean toward user-level encryption. <crog> Yep <Cheesehead> So the Ubuntu One part is kind of irrelevant? <Cheesehead> Could be any online storage? <crog> imo yes. <yotux> yes <crog> but If ubuntu wants to have ubuntu 1 integrated, it could be built in to the client side interface <Cheesehead> Okay, next: <Cheesehead> http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/27415/ <Cheesehead> By the way, THANK YOU for your help and input. It's great to get more perspectives! <Cheesehead> And you are really helping people. <crog> On this one, my first thought is, "meh" * Cheesehead laughs <Cheesehead> Does this seem like it's really a problem? <crog> I know who I am from the background, icon layout, name, etc <crog> This doesn't help or hinder my usage <Cheesehead> Judging by the votes in Solution #1, perhaps a lot of voters agree with you <yotux> I don't see this as a problem <Cheesehead> User-customization will make a bigger difference than a user-icon? <yotux> The users name is already displayed <Cheesehead> Ah, true. I had forgotten <crog> the rationale says, "this could help more clearly indicate which us is logged in" <yotux> the icon is generic but the login icome is custom I think <yotux> I don't think it would, I think this is not a problem <yotux> User name is clearly displayed <crog> yotux: agree <yotux> its eye candy not functional <Cheesehead> OK, how about I close this one due to the low vote scores? <yotux> Also the screenshots are from older ubuntus we not longer will be using that framework <crog> Sounds good to me <yotux> Agree <Cheesehead> Oops, one moment please... <Cheesehead> Ah, here we go: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/27298/ <Cheesehead> Sorry for the delay. Thunderstorm. <crog> I agree with the "problem", but not sure on solutions here <crog> If a process dies in the way described, restarting it probably just means it will die again <yotux> okay if a process that controls the GUI dies doesn't this make it some type of bug <Cheesehead> yotux: Well, yes. <yotux> brainstorm is not the place to report bugs, if this is the case I would suggest they try and create a bug report <crog> I'm not familiar enough with apport yet, and the other built-in bug reporting <crog> but perhaps this is speaking to a need that they be a little more integrated <yotux> crog: me either but it could be allot of things <yotux> drives, unity, compiz, etc <crog> clearly the submitter experienced a bug <crog> and is looking for a way for bugs to be less intrusive on the user experience <yotux> crog: I agree <yotux> bugs will always make user unhappy, we need to address bugs and try and get them fixed <crog> restarting is likely not going to solve anything <Cheesehead> So is this a workaround to some bug the user experiences? <Cheesehead> Or is there a real need to monitor/restart long-lived processes? <crog> but noting that the process died, and doing something about it (instead of just logging in dmesg) might hlep <crog> help <crog> if there is a need to monitor/restart specific daemons, then I'd leave that monitoring to the specific application <Cheesehead> Well, daemons are supposed to be supervised by Upstart, not directly by applications. <yotux> logging could help solve the problem in the end <crog> I guess I mean if you're writing something that you want to keep alive, but not writing it as a daemon <yotux> but logging wil also create more work with more data for devs to fix <Cheesehead> like, say, gdm. <Cheesehead> Example of a long-lived non-daemon <Cheesehead> If the submitter had provided a more specific example, it would be easier to identify if this is a bug workaround. <crog> he's comparing to a Win experience where explorer just restarts <yotux> crog I agree <Cheesehead> crog: I think you're right <crog> but I'd even argue that explorer just restarting doesn't help solve anything <Cheesehead> That takes us back to the initial question: Real need, or bug workaround? <yotux> I would say bug workaround <yotux> Is brainstorm the place for those workarounds? <crog> makes it easier to deal with a bug that occurred if you're not going to actually dig into the root caus <Cheesehead> Not really. The right answer is to fix the bugs so the workarounds are not needed. <Cheesehead> Workarounds introduce their own bugs, too <crog> I think the most useful thing in here is 'offer to restart or log out and report to the developers' <crog> thats why I mentioned apport at the start - <Cheesehead> Well, if X crashes, it already generates an apport report" <Cheesehead> And won;t give you any options - you're back to login screen <crog> So looks like we're thinking it doesn't really belong here <yotux> I would agree <crog> redirect to, "thanks, and if you see this behavior, we recommend..." <Cheesehead> ...enable apport, then reporduce the behavior. <Cheesehead> How is everybody's brain doing? <Cheesehead> Feel like you just swam a mile? <crog> fine... need to help around the house pretty soon here. <Cheesehead> crog, where are you located? <crog> I appreciate hearing the different opinions on these.... <crog> Cheesehead: Madison <crog> Cheesehead: Going to try to join tomorrow bug jam too, if I can get away... <Cheesehead> I REALLY appreciated getting your opinions! <Cheesehead> Yeah, the bug jam will work much the same way. <Cheesehead> You guys were GREAT here. Let your families know I really appreciate their sacrifice! <crog> Cheesehead: Where are you? <yotux> Cheesehead: Thanks for the intro <Cheesehead> Milwaukee <yotux> yotux: Portage <Cheesehead> I hope you liked it, and thanks for coming by! <Cheesehead> Any suggestions on how to improve for next time? <yotux> It was interesting <Cheesehead> There are a lot of possible topics! <Cheesehead> That's what I like about it <crog> we just jumped right in, which I think was great <crog> we made some decisions about wht the next steps should be on some of these <Cheesehead> Good. That's what I was aiming for! <yotux> I would agree with crog the lead in time was great <crog> perhaps a little bit more about the process up front. <Cheesehead> I thought about more lead-in. If we had some newer folks, I had some text prepared. <Cheesehead> But you guys really grabbed the ball and ran. <crog> for example we talked about closing one, but not how it's done. <Cheesehead> I have to close it. I have permissions to do so. <crog> I'm assuming you have a different interface to the website <Cheesehead> A bit different. A few extra tools. <crog> I was thinking just a little more of "lifecycle of an idea in brainstorm" <crog> but didn't really need much background (such as purpose/motivation, etc.) <yotux> crog: as one joins a team they get more rights <Cheesehead> Wait...I might have that here... <crog> yotux: assumed so - and that makes sense. <Cheesehead> WHAT BRAINSTORM IS: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com . It's an idea-generation website. <Cheesehead> You bring a specific problem, and users contribute solutions, and vote on the various solutions. <Cheesehead> Very handy for developers, or for users who identify a problem, but don;t know what to do about it. <Cheesehead> Every three months, the Ubuntu Technical Board reviews and responds to the 10 highest scoring ideas of the period. <Cheesehead> WHAT BRAINSTORM IS NOT: It's not a feedback or comment-card like you find in a restaurant <Cheesehead> "The food was nice, but the table was wobbly. And you should serve ice cream" <Cheesehead> That submission doesn't help anybody - it's a bug (wobbly table) and a wish (add ice cream) wrapped up together. That's a forum or blog post. <Cheesehead> We help the user parse out the bug and the wish and submit them separately to the appropriate channels. <Cheesehead> There we go. Just pretend I made you wade through all that up front. * Cheesehead laughs <crog> got it <crog> well - thanks again- - gotta go.... <Cheesehead> Thanks for joining! <Cheesehead> See you tomorrow1 <Cheesehead> ! <yotux> Cheeseh33ec:265c:71fe:e26d:2682:4ec2:aaa1:99ab thanks for all you help on this, hope bug jam goes the same way <Cheesehead> Thanks for all *your* help. <yotux> I have to go myself. I am consider joining this team. <Cheesehead> Mere formality. You already have. <yotux> okay, My instrest are bugs and may MOTU <Cheesehead> Well, then. See you tomorrow, same time, same channel! <yotux> but will tackle that tomorrow <yotux> bye <Cheesehead> #EndEvent <Cheesehead> <Cheesehead> Join us in 21 Hours for the Wisconsin Bug Jam! http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/ubuntu-us-wisconsin/1178/detail/ * Cheesehead wanders off for a drink in the atrium <Cheesehead> Brainstorm Jam Logs: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/09/03/%23ubuntu-us-wi.html#t16:55 <h00k> hi friends! <h00k> went well? <Cheesehead> h00k: Seems so. <h00k> s as eet <h00k> sweet <Cheesehead> You can see it was intense, and lasted the whole three hours <h00k> that ud awesome <h00k> is <Cheesehead> parting words were 'hope the bug jam goes the same way' <h00k> on my phone, haven't checked the logs yet <h00k> ! coool #ubuntu-us-wi 2011-09-04 <bigbash> ping Cheesehead <Cheesehead> bigbash: pong <bigbash> I was just going to leave a message for you <bigbash> I have a favor to ask please <bigbash> I am being summoned by my family to a baptism tomorrow and most likely won't' be back in time for the bug jam :( Do you think you might be able to be the facilitator/mentor? <Cheesehead> Consider it done. <bigbash> I'm not very happy I have to go, I'm still waiting to power to come back on at work so we can get our servers back up <bigbash> I appreciate it :) <Cheesehead> Are you asking for a just-in-case? Or do think it's pretty realistic you will be late/absent? <bigbash> pretty realistic <Cheesehead> No problem. <bigbash> I really appreciate it <Cheesehead> Family time is more important than anonymous internet geeks... <Cheesehead> ...or so my spouse keeps telling me. <Cheesehead> I believe her. <bigbash> ha, that's what my wife and parents said <Cheesehead> We can geek out on IRC anytime. <Cheesehead> Family time is rarer and wonderful. <bigbash> well I'll be reading the logs when I get back so I can learn from the master on how to facilitate a bug jam <Cheesehead> You'll need to watch a *real* master at work, then. I'm just the guy show showed up and lost the coin toss. <Cheesehead> /show/who <Cheesehead> And who apparently cannot spell <bigbash> I love the analogy <Cheesehead> If you saw the Brainstorm Jam, you'll see the participants did all the real work <bigbash> Thanks again, I'm going to head to bed, up early to check on the power situation for work before I get ready and head down to Milwaukee <Cheesehead> G'night <bigbash> I started reading the logs, but I didn't finish had to go to inlaws <bigbash> night everyone <Cheesehead> Event Reminder: Wisconsin LoCo is running an IRC Bug Jam, Sunday 1700 UTC (four hours from now), in this channel. Great training opportunity for people new to bugs. If you have a favorite bug, bring it along! <Cheesehead> Test: Bug 828346 <lubotu1> Launchpad bug 828346 in Ubuntu "unable to use volume control and brightness control" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/828346 <Cheesehead> heh heh heh <trinikrono> bug jam? <trinikrono> i think i am 2 hours early lol <Cheesehead> trinikrono: Indeed, 1:42 from now <lostson> hope you have a good turnout and squash some bugs <Cheesehead> lostson: Thanks <Cheesehead> Event Reminder: Bug Jam in this channel in 0:27 <yotux> Cheesehead: Thanks, are we going to use two channels or just one like yesterday <Cheesehead> yotux: Let's start with one, and spread out as-needed <yotux> Cheesehead: okay <Cheesehead> We'll need to see how many new-to-bugs participants we have, and how many experienced-jump-right-in folks <yotux> Cheesehead: I understand it was fun yesterday, bug are a little more scary to mean. I am printing the triage guide at the moment to go over again <yotux> sorry I can't seem to type this morning bugs are scary to me <Cheesehead> That's what makes the group-format nice. Nobody needs to know everything, and there's time to look stuff up <Cheesehead> ...and use the bathroom and eat lunch, etc <ashams> yotux: Hi, I never heared about such guide "the triage guide" <Cheesehead> ashams: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/HowToTriage <Cheesehead> You don't know about it until somebody tells you. <yotux> ashams: as cheeshead said https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/HowToTriage/ <EgyParadox> did the ugj start? <Cheesehead> Not really, we're all just eager! * Cheesehead goes to #ubuntu-bugs to give the 5-minute warning <ashams> Cheesehead: thanx, I assumed they finally made a consistent PDF :D <yotux> ashams: it fits nicely into 10 pgs <yotux> I used lib office to paste and print <Cheesehead> The types of bugs change over time, so it's a dynamic guide. <Cheesehead> A few years ago, there were a lot more X and pulseaudio and printing bugs <trinikrono> i just got hggh to edit it <trinikrono> so it has a new piece in the section invaliditing <Cheesehead> trinikrono: Great! That's changed since I last invalidated a bug...I learn more about bugs each time I touch one. <Cheesehead> .. <Cheesehead> Hello, everyone here for the Wisconsin Bug Jam. <Cheesehead> Activity in this channel is logged - you can get the logs at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/09/04/%23ubuntu-us-wi <Cheesehead> All abilities are welcome, no experience necessary! <Cheesehead> .. <Cheesehead> Let's see how many participants we have here. Could everyone active in this channel please give a response? <trinikrono> +1 <yotux> Here +2 * Cheesehead laughs <Cheesehead> I know we have more than that. Lag, perhaps. <Cheesehead> Everybody else, feel free to jump in! <ashams> o/ <Cheesehead> There are a few goals here today: <Cheesehead> 1) Meet new people and have fun <Cheesehead> 2) If you brought a bug along, work it together <Cheesehead> 3) Learn how to Triage some of the wide variety of bugs <Cheesehead> 4) If you're new to bugs, learn the life cycle of bugs, the tools, and where to begin <Cheesehead> You *don't* need to be a bug guru already! The great thing about working together is that everybody learns <Cheesehead> .. <Cheesehead> SETTING UP <Cheesehead> A couple questions to gauge the expertise level in the room - feel free to throw out answers: <Cheesehead> Question: Did anybody bring a favorite bug that they want to work? <Cheesehead> Question: Does anybody here consider themselves pretty experienced with any kind of bugs? <Cheesehead> Question: Is anybody here interested in any particular kind of bug? <trinikrono> i just applied to bug control <trinikrono> o.o <yotux> didn't bring a bug, new / some apport experience, open minded * trinikrono goes looking for a bug <Cheesehead> ashams: How much bug experience do you want to have? <ashams> Cheesehead: a lot <Cheesehead> All right! I can just go sleep on the couch then! <Cheesehead> Does anyone want to see the text on (simplified) bug-life-cycle? <Cheesehead> Does anyone not know what a Launchpad Account is? <Cheesehead> Everyone ready to jump in the pool? (Shallow end first) <ashams> Cheesehead: Have a nice dreams :D <yotux> I know what a lauchpad account is <trinikrono> go ahead <Cheesehead> Let's start with an easy one: Bug 828346 <lubotu1> Launchpad bug 828346 in Ubuntu "unable to use volume control and brightness control" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/828346 <Cheesehead> Jump in and share your thoughts. <trinikrono> ok <Cheesehead> We'll reach a consensus before acting * trinikrono raises hand <Cheesehead> trinikrono: go ahead anytime <trinikrono> no apport info! <Cheesehead> Is it a crash? <Cheesehead> (apport usually only generates a report during a crash) <yotux> seems the package is wrong <Cheesehead> yotux: Good eyes! <Cheesehead> It indeed lacks a package! <Cheesehead> What else? <ashams> lacks files <yotux> also the doc bar is not directly controlled by nvidia package. <Cheesehead> yotux: Great spotting! <yotux> what package did the user install? <Cheesehead> Perhaps we have an inexperienced reporter? <yotux> I would ask what package was installed <Cheesehead> What package would an inexperienced user claim 'recommends' a proprietary video driver? <yotux> I would assume this <yotux> but we can't send assumptions to devs / upstream <trinikrono> jockey? <Cheesehead> trinikrono: Yes! <yotux> I would says ask for me info. wait a while and then possible invalid <Cheesehead> Possible. <Cheesehead> Let's explore Jockey for a second. <Cheesehead> Imagine you are the user. <Cheesehead> Jockey tells you to install NVIDAI proprietary <Cheesehead> You restart,
{'channel': 'ubuntu-us-wi', 'month': 9}