#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-11-01 <persia> ScottL, Just a couple quick notes from UDS: 1) I think that automatic full integration between pulse and jack won't land for natty (still needs thinking/discussion), although diwic should improve things. 2) UKT won't produce -lowlatency, but *will* document a clean procedure for other folk to upload kernels properly, so we can have it if someone does it. <persia> rlamiero: I'd be very concerned about any tool that encouraged adding PPAs, but I think you know my opinions about them anyway :) <scott-work> persia: i spoke with abogani recently (approximately one week ago) and he confirms that he has been working on the -lowlatency kernel for natty <scott-work> this is good news indeed, and i can stop trying to bug JFo about it :) <persia> Excellent. It may need slight adjustment to match the document coming out of UKT, but I don't see any real obstacles to getting it into the archive for natty. <scott-work> did UKT say when the documentation will be ready? <persia> Based on the UDS discussion, I don't think JFo will be able to help directly, except in the sense of helping drive the delivery of the documentation. <persia> No. * scott-work thinks that having clean documentation is a far better system than assigning mentors <persia> Oh, yeah. <persia> Assignment of mentors doesn't scale well. <scott-work> in regards to 1), i had reservations about full integration for natty because i expected upstream's involvement to be required <scott-work> nonetheless, i always welcome and appreciate progress :) <persia> My understanding is that there will be discussions with lennart at plumbers next week, but it looks like a bundle of work to get the user experience right. <scott-work> persia: i would like to mention a few things about seeds and the -meta package <persia> Sure. I'm caught up on backscroll in this channel, so I saw some of the stuff you and stochastic were discussing. <scott-work> there is quite a bit of email on the lists about this continuing and stochastic has expressed significant interest in the procedures <scott-work> s/procedures/proceedings <scott-work> i would like to define two weeks from now as the date that i push changes and ./update the -meta package <scott-work> i would like to push the discussions forward to resolution by that time <scott-work> thereby giving a couple of weeks before the first alpha is out, i presume that should be a necessary minimum of time to sort any problems <persia> That sounds like a reasonable plan. <persia> I'd recommend focusing on structure first: it is a lot easier to refine the details (add or remove one or two packages) later, rather than needing to do another overhaul. <scott-work> persia: i believed we had the structure defined last time we spoke: audio-common, generation, recording https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/PackageSelectionDevelopment * scott-work found many errors in the last link when updating the seeds <scott-work> persia: and this are the steps i expect are necessary to update everything: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Sandbox#Seeds%20Update <scott-work> i have already branched the code and updated most of the seeds, now i am waiting for all the list discussions to resolve into a final decision to make final edits before pushing <persia> -live would include -common? <scott-work> i should also note that it appears that a "performance" or "live" seed might be advantageous from some of the feedback, especially from stochastic <scott-work> persia: yes, in the STRUCTURE file i expected to have -live depend on -common <persia> I still think mixxx/terminatorx/xwax all cover a common case, and that we ought to pick one, although I've been shouted down about that before a few times over the years. <scott-work> i believe you preferred mixxx over the other two? <scott-work> this would align with comments from others and i would like to hear stochastic's opinion as well since he has exponentially more experience than i <persia> xwax wasn't in the archives last time I pushed it. I personally like the terminatorx interface and like that it's small on the image, but mixxx has *lots* more features, and some of the DJs I know have switched to using xwax more recently. <persia> But, yeah, needs input from the experts: I'm just violently against recommending two tools to solve the same thing. I think we should have one by default, and allow folk who want a different one to install from the repos. <TheMuso> Would be worth getting dholbach's thoughts on xwax. <persia> Absolutely. I know he decided against switching from raw vinyl to mixxx in the past. <scott-work> persia: i agree with one tool per use and letting users install differing applications <scott-work> sometimes it's hard to convince users of this :P some of the mailing list can attest to this <persia> Heh, yeah. <persia> The -video seed is *full* of this issue. <persia> I'm tasked with a few things from UDS that may help with that, mostly related to creating shared semantic values for "flavour" and "product", which can be used to bang the "opinionated defaults" drum a bit harder. <scott-work> TheMuso: i read jono's latest (or one of the latest) post and noticed he mentioned your involvement with accessability in Unity, i would expect congratulations are in order :) <scott-work> persia: and the -video seed will most likely remain contentious for some time, even now the current discussion about seeds contains advocation for several video applications <scott-work> persia: although i am asking if we could consolidate applications which might cover several use cases <scott-work> persia: by "flavour" and "product" are you refering to Ubuntu distributions or something else? i'm not sure i follow the logic about how it would help with "opinionated defaults" <paultag> morning scott-upstairs <paultag> ern scott-work <paultag> that's what you were using :) <scott-work> morning paultag * scott-work sheepishly admits he should probably log off on at least *one* computer ;) <paultag> scott-work, have you played with znc ? <paultag> scott-work, it will let you do all of what you normally do under one nickname, and keep you online and stuff <paultag> Ah, here it is -- http://en.znc.in/wiki/ZNC <AutoStatic> uname -a <AutoStatic> he he, wrong terminal :) <paultag> AutoStatic, :) <paultag> BRB <scott-work> hmmmm, i will certainly have to look into that paultag, that might greatly simplify a few things for me :) <paultag> :) <dholbach> hiya <TheMuso> scott-work: I suggest also looking into bip as an alternative. <scott-work> dholbach: we are currently evaluating the applications included in ubuntu studio, specifically DJ application at the moment <scott-work> dholbach: we were curious about your thoughts about xwax, since we knew that you used it <scott-work> TheMuso: i will look into bip as well :) <dholbach> scott-work, I'd love to push the 0.8-beta release into natty - it works great for me and it adds a 45rpm mode, which I was keen to get in :) <dholbach> scott-work, also I'm talking to the kernel team about fixing some issue I have since some lucid sru, we're in the process of bisecting it <scott-work> dholbach: have you tried mixxx in contrast to xwax? do you prefer one over the other? why? <dholbach> I didn't try mixxx yet <scott-work> my understanding was that mixxx has many featuers, perhaps significantly more than xwax, but i do not use DJ applications so I am not in a position to state demonstratively <dholbach> scott-work, I didn't use mixxx as my understanding was that it was for "on your machine mixing" and not just using your machine as a 'controller' <dholbach> but I might be wrong <dholbach> xwax certainly works alright for my use case :) <scott-work> dholbach: one of the studio developers (stochastic) is involved in DJ applications, hopefully we can get some clear answers and expand all of our understandings <dholbach> scott-work, so I don't have much more input :) <scott-work> dholbach: we certainly appreciate you stopping by though :) <dholbach> :-) <stochastic__> scott-work, I would highly recommend putting both mixxx and xwax into the -playback seed, mixxx is best for software-only mixing, while xwax is best for timecoded turntables being used as a controller for mp3/ogg mixing. <stochastic__> ScottL, scott-upstairs ^^ <stochastic__> I was also trying to figure out which seed would be the best for putting notation software into <stochastic__> My thoughts are that they should be put together with the programming applications such as PD, CSound, and Chuck as often the people who would use the programming software would also use notation software <stochastic__> call it a -composition meta <stochastic__> I also think 'generation' should be called 'synthesis' or 'creation' as generation implies generative algorithms in my mind. <scott-work> stochastic__: including both xwax and mixxx sound reasonable for the reasons you listed, two different use cases <scott-work> stochastic__: do you believe there is enough demand to create an additional seed and meta for programming applications? <stochastic__> scott-work, yeah, I was going to add both workflows to the wiki soon <stochastic__> scott-work, that is the one good argument against doing so, but those applications are all very lightweight, so it would likely take very little space on the disks and would be very nice for people in the field to have ready to go <stochastic__> scott-work, where were you thinking of putting the notation applications? <scott-work> sorry, was interrupted at work - i am worried that we will end up with five audo tasks (along with plugins, graphics, and video) for tasksel during installation, which I think might start to become overwhelming <rlameiro> stochastic__: hey man :D long time no see :D <stochastic__> that's an inherent issue with splitting up the metas <stochastic__> but I am supportive of this idea for specialized metas <stochastic__> hey rlameiro <stochastic__> rlameiro, do you think a programming meta would be a good idea? one that has PD, CSound, Chuck, etc... (maybe with all the add-ons such as GEM) <rlameiro> stochastic__: yeap, there is no workflow for that, at least generally, but I talked with scott-work about it. It will be very nice for academic work also <scott-work> debian has lots of pd stuff coming in currently <rlameiro> stochastic__: a meta for it is completely understanble and logical <scott-work> let's just hope debian releases before natty :P <rlameiro> scott-work: they are putting pd-extended in debian, and they are splitting all the libs in separetad packages <stochastic__> NICE! that's awesome <rlameiro> yeap, hans is talking about that a long time <rlameiro> I think the kickstrats was when he attended at the debconf <stochastic__> scott-work, I also wanted to let you know that I'm still up for assisting with the implementation of any website changes. I am in possession of an entire off-line backup of the site so I can test out changes fully. <stochastic__> I am however, staying silent (but following along) during the design phase - for now. <rlameiro> stochastic__: do you want to help me designing some testing procedures after the workflows? <rlameiro> i will work on that after November <stochastic__> rlameiro, testing in what sense? <rlameiro> testing if the workflows works on the release <rlameiro> ISO testing basically, for instance design a test for firewire audio <rlameiro> another for ardour workflow etccc <stochastic__> I may not have time to do that <rlameiro> oh no, I just wanted an experienced opinion :D not asking you to make the work <rlameiro> since you were very involved in testing <stochastic__> rlameiro, I could offer some opinions, but really I think the workflows themselves would be self descriptive test procedures <rlameiro> yeap i think the same, nevertheless it need to go to the QA team. <scott-work> sorry, was upgrading from AutoCAD 2008 to AutoCAD2010 and computer restarted <rlameiro> scott-upstairs: talking about you in LO <rlameiro> scott-work: talking about you in LO <rlameiro> scott-work: finish :D <scott-work> oh, linux outlaws? i wrote them an email last night <scott-work> i hope they were saying nice things *fingers crossed* <scott-work> rlameiro: ^^^ <scott-work> i think Fab and I got a little crossed during an email exchange <rlameiro> scott-work: he tought you where a fanboy :D and dan said him you where the US leader :D <rlameiro> lol <rlameiro> it was nice <scott-work> *relieve* good :) <scott-work> rlameiro: now, i'm all curious, what did LO say? <rlameiro> well, now i dont remeber :D <rlameiro> dan said it will put link about workflows etc <rlameiro> he did say it was a long mail :D <scott-work> oh aye, it was :P <persia> stochastic, ScottL: http://www.mixxx.org/features.php claims that mixxx supports timecode: is something known buggy about this? <persia> ScottL, defining "product" isn't something I'll be able to do precisely until later in the week, but it's something about how the contents of Ubuntu images are selected, which helps remind people of prior discussion on opinionated defaults (that we like one thing to do each thing, and pick one because we like it) <stochastic> persia, xwax is much better at the timecode thing. Sort of like qtractor can do multi-channel audio editing, but ardour does it much better. <persia> heh, OK. <persia> We probably ought to try to help fix that, so we can have one thing (either making xwax handle other mixing or making mixxx handle vinyl better) #ubuntustudio-devel 2010-11-02 <TheMuso> c <azm> Hi. Just read blog post <azm> thats pity <JFo> azm, what blog post? <azm> http://dullass.blogspot.com/2010/08/state-of-ubuntu-studio-2010.html <azm> well at least I help with stayin in this chan for this moment <JFo> ScottL, nice blog post :) <stochastic> scott-work, are you around? <scott-work> stochastic: i am about to leave in 2.2496 secs <scott-work> s/secs/minutes <scott-work> 2.2495 minutes <scott-work> but i'll be home in approximately one hour though <stochastic> scott-work, okay, it's not that important, talk to you later <scott-work> stochastic: will you be around at that time, want to talk then? <stochastic> probably, but might be busy myself, ask me then <scott-work> righty-o ! <stochastic> ScottL, I was just in the process of editing the workflow wiki and was about to include a workflow for creating soundtracks for movies (was going to put it in the audio section) when I realized there was one already created <stochastic> Not only is it in the video section of the page, but it uses Open Movie Editor in place of XJadeo (the app I normally use) <persia> stochastic, In the spirit of opinionated defaults, do you have a strong opinion why XJadeo is better than Open Movie Editor for that purpose? <stochastic> persia, yes, the intended purpose was to have a video playback that syncs with either jack's or ardour's timecode so that the audio editing can be done in sync with the video <persia> Excellent. Let's make it better. <persia> My recommendation would be to send a mail to the list with both workflows and an argument why the one using XJadeo is better. <stochastic> Open Movie Editor is very large and has many more features than is required for this task, XJadeo is a basic stripped down player whose primary function is to sync with either jack or ardour's timecode <persia> It's not hard to switch, but I'd much rather just select one thing. <stochastic> me too <stochastic> persia, I'd like to hear your explanation as to why denemo should be removed in favour of mscore <persia> The other side of things is whether it's better to teach users to use several parts of Open Movie Editor, rather than several tools. I'm a fan of the do-one-thing-well model rather than the everything-in-one-interface model, but it does make extra work for the docs folk. <persia> Oh, the main reason is that denemo is exceedingly painful to maintain, and sometimes rather broken when we try to release. <stochastic> I think most of the other features of Open Movie Editor are already duplicated in other pieces of software in the video task (OpenShot, Blender) <persia> That sounds like a compelling argument to make Open Movie Editor an alternative application, rather than one of the featured applications. <stochastic> re:Denemo, I have no attachment to Denemo, but am VERY attached to it's backend Lilypond (and the lilypond editor Frescobaldi) they have features that no other notation applications have and produce some of the most beautiful scores around - however they are not beginner friendly <persia> Denemo is frescobaldi except without the attention to detail <persia> But yeah, I agree lilypond is wonderful: I'm just not sure it's worth the effort to try to make it reasonable for new users when musescore is available, works with our stuff, and has an active upstream who have been involved with us for some time. <stochastic> Frescobaldi does not have a point-click interface, it's meant as an text editor with graphical display, Denemo tries to be a point-click interface for Lilypond * stochastic will not be able to be convinced that we should drop Lilypond (but really couldn't care that much about which beginner-friendly editor we ship with) <stochastic> persia, I like your arguments for musescore, but I believe that it serves a different audience than Lilypond <persia> I agree. <persia> So, I don't want to drop lilypond from the archive, and I think it's worth us putting effort into testing it and making sure it's maintained. <persia> That said, I also think it's better to ship musescore in the images (if it works well enough), and encourage folk who need it to install lilypond later. <persia> Does my position make more sense now? <stochastic> yes <stochastic> ScottL, I know you're not home yet, but maybe it's something to consider keeping workflows on that wiki page that include applications not in Ubuntu Studio's metas <persia> I wonder if we oughtn't have two pages: "Recommended Workflows" and "Alternate Workflows" <persia> We can point folk at the Alternates if they need something the recommended ones don't service, if it's documented there. <persia> And we can review alternates each release to determine if we want to swap things around. <stochastic> I think two pages would be unnecessary, we just need to mark certain workflows with items like "Advanced" or "Install program X" <stochastic> nothing wrong with having an install step as part of the workflow <persia> I don't like "Advanced" because it scares folk off. There are lots of folks who self-identify as newbies who have workflows that would need such tools. <stochastic> fair enough <persia> My main argument in favour of two pages is to reduce the scope of the primary docs to something that makes it translation-friendly. <persia> Once we have regularly updated docs and sufficient translators, then I'd be happy to expand to include off-image workflows by default. <persia> And, yeah, nothing wrong with the first step being to install something, I just think we ought to encourage folk to look at the things already working by default. <stochastic> my main argument in favour of one page would be that the page is still in early development stages and breaking it up may result in doubling of workflows and info <stochastic> I think we're still in the "brainstorm of workflows" time period <persia> Oh, then I completely agree with you, as long as we can separate/filter later once ScottL decides what belongs on the images. <stochastic> once the page is well developed, then we can start to sort it into "on-image" "off-image" workflows if needed <stochastic> and a second page may not be the best method, maybe just move those later workflows to a lower section of that page, as many users wouldn't visit a second page <stochastic> ^^ maybe <persia> Dunno. That's the sort of detail decision I think is better left to whoever is willing to manage the documentation. <stochastic> fair enough <persia> Have to provide some incentive :) <stochastic> :) <ScottL> hi stochastic and persia, i would point out that zettberlin (i think) said that OpenMovieEditor isn't actively developed anymore <persia> An extra argument for not using it by default. I'm liking this way of reviewing applications more and more <ScottL> :) <ScottL> i also see we need to remove the 'mscore' package and use 'musescore' in natty * ScottL hopes he understands it correctly <persia> I think we'll inherit that from Debian, as it's still needed for squeeze uploads. <persia> s/uploads/upgrades/ <ScottL> i really appreciate the effort from the community to help with the workflows, it's absolutely amazing and fascinating <ScottL> however if we used all the applications they suggested our image would be even bigger than it is now perhaps :P <persia> I think it's worth adding some direction based on the discussion stochastic and I had above about primary and alternate solutions. <persia> But that might need someone to be the documentation coordinator, etc. (ideal candidate would be willing to fill roles both in Ubuntu Studio and Ubuntu Docs, etc.) <persia> And then you can select some subset of workflows that would enable 80%+ supported use for identified audience, etc. #ubuntustudio-devel 2010-11-03 <ScottL> reading troy_s' latest blog post i am reminded that i could have handled the website development much better :/ <ScottL> but i hope to learn from the experience (and his blog posts) and manage the next situation in a better fashion :) <persia> If you aren't learning, it gets boring fast :) <ScottL> i agree persia about primary and alternate solutions <ScottL> i just learned about "jack sessions" last week, i wonder if we should be supporting it as we are with lashd in natty? <ScottL> or should we choose one over the other? <ScottL> and what we would need to do if we choose to support "jack sessions" <persia> We probably ought involve ourselves in wider discussions so that we can have one method that users use to save full status of their work. <persia> Could be jack sessions triggering lashd saves, or lashd saving the current jack session, or something else entirely. <ScottL> how wide? i would imagine this could include more than the ubuntu studio or ubuntu communities <persia> I think it probably needs discussion at the l-a-d@ level. <ScottL> right, that seems entirely sane <persia> From a quick glance at archives, seems there was some discussion on the topic from June. <persia> And I think that upstream is being sane about this sort of thing, but it may need some work, especially in terms of integrating patches into the applications. <persia> http://trac.jackaudio.org/wiki/WalkThrough/Dev/JackSession and http://trac.jackaudio.org/wiki/WalkThrough/User/jack_session keep failing to load for me, but are probably reasonable resources. <ScottL> stochastic, dave phillips discussed some recent news about xjadeo http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/ecology-ardour * persia hugs uzbl for loading all sorts of random stuff that doesn't work with regular browsers <ScottL> persia, those are the pages i read last week, i had no idea about jack sessions until i read those <ScottL> dave phillips also reports that blender is working on JACK support :) <persia> Looks a bit immature for natty, to me, but maybe we'll reach sufficient coverage before natty+1 that it would make sense to target doing local patches for the more important apps still unsupported. <ScottL> oh yeah, i don't expect this for natty, just pointing it out because i think it's awesome <ScottL> persia, which browser are you trying to use to open the jack sessions pages? <persia> I was using epiphany. <persia> But my quest for a light-weight browser that does what I want is likely to end up with some custom luakit arrangement <scott-work> stochastic: i think we may also be able to use wordpress for the website update <scott-work> i've noticed many, many new official ubuntu web pages that are "Powered by WordPress", e.g. http://uds.ubuntu.com/ <scott-work> persia: i forgot if you had confirmed this or not, do we need to remove the mscore package from the natty seeds and replace it with musescore? <scott-work> is there anything else we will need to do? will someone else handle the actual transition package itself? <persia> scott-work, Oh, for seeds! Yes, absolutely mscore needs to be removed and musescore placed. The mscore package has to be left in the archive until squeeze release. <scott-work> persia: thank you, i'll update my branch of the seeds then <stochastic> ScottL, switching themes/layouts within Drupal is an easy task; switching entire cms systems is much more involved. I'm also not familiar with wordpress, so I wouldn't be much help in that situation. <stochastic> essentially, my view is that the site runs on drupal, there's nothing that wordpress can do that drupal can't, so there's no purpose to switching <persia> I'll argue that there are N things wordpress can do that drupal can't, and vice versa, and neither are important in the slightest: the decision ought be made based on the capabilities of the administrators, rather than for a feature, as it's vanishingly rare that either can't do something that is important for most sites. #ubuntustudio-devel 2010-11-04 <stochastic> true <ScottL> stochastic, part of my original concern was who was available to effect the change, those that were preferred wordpress <ScottL> i don't particularly favour one or the other <ScottL> however, that was the viable path at the time, but then you commented that per the security team wordpress was verboten <ScottL> and i wanted to mention to you that it appears considerations might have changed since then <ScottL> however, i am very happy and relieved that it appears you will be involved with the website update :) <ScottL> good morning abogani , astraljava , AutoStatic , paultag , persia , stochastic , and everyone else :) * ScottL is off to work <abogani> ScottL: Good morning to you! <AutoStatic> Good morning <paultag> morning there ScottL <scott-work> persia: i have concern about the "clean procedure" you mentioned from the UKT about getting the -lowlatency kernel into natty <scott-work> specifically, i would prefer to get the procedure soon so we can get the kernel into natty and begin testing <scott-work> i worry that without prompting we might not see the procedure towards the end of the development cycle for natty <scott-work> do you have a contact with UKT that we can contact? <astraljava> Morning scott-work! <persia> scott-work, I think we'd all like to get the procedure soon. I think it won't be near the end of the cycle, as there's lots of folks who will be pushing non-UKT kernels this cycle. I expect we'll be given a contact by next week (this week ends up with a lot of sorting through UDS leftovers and task assignments). <scott-work> persia: oustanding! sorry if i seem impatient but i wanted to stay on top of this :) <scott-work> astraljava: good morning :) have you had a chance to review any potential backport applications from maverick for lucid ? <quadrispro> hi scott-work, persia <scott-work> hi quadrispro, i saw that swh-lv2 is accepted! that was quite surprising <quadrispro> :) <persia> scott-work, In your role, impatience is an asset :) <quadrispro> I'm writing a short summary of new multimedia packages which has joined Debian recently, hope to send to the ML as soon as possible <quadrispro> now I have to leave, see you later * scott-work hugs quadrispro even though he left already <paultag> heh :) <jussi> scott-work: have we got access to the website sorted yet? <scott-work> jussi: sadly, no. but i haven't been bugging anyone lately either, so it's partly my fault as well <scott-work> however, i did file a ticket for it <jussi> scott-work: I saw the ticket :D <jussi> also saw 2 very old tickets still open from cory and luis <scott-work> lol, i saw luis's old ticket but not cory's <scott-work> jussi: persia proffered excellent advice to bug someone on #canincal-sysadmin every 29 hours which i plan to effect when a few items settle down for me <astraljava> scott-work: Sorry, not yet. Last two weeks have been crazy. Things will slow down after the weekend, so I'm hoping to have some chances for hobbies as well then. <jussi> scott-work: I asked about that issue with the website - they said it was "non trivial" ie. they couldnt do it right at this second. please keep bugging them <scott-work> jussi: thank you for checking on it! :) <scott-work> I will certainly start bugging them and keeping at it soon, but i think we're probably two months away from directly needed access to the site <scott-work> stochastic has a copy of the site on his local machine and he has access as well <persia> ScottL, You'll want to subscribe to https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-version-and-flavours to get informed when the document on additional kernel flavours is completed. #ubuntustudio-devel 2010-11-05 <ScottL> thank you persia, subscribing now <paultag> persia, are you around perchance? <paultag> persia, I need someone with the CC hat <paultag> I just need a quick LP change :) <persia> Wrong place to ask me :) I'm around. <paultag> persia, sorry, you were not in community-team <paultag> that's where I'm used to doing stuff like that :) <persia> That's not the right place either. The right place is email to CC or /query <paultag> OK. <persia> And /query gets strictly limited results (for transparency/accountability reasons) <persia> If you think CC should have a group IRC presence, please add that to the CC agenda for the next meeting: historically it's been email or informal. <paultag> It's OK persia. No sweat. <paultag> thanks * abogani waves all <abogani> FYI I have just uploaded at http://kernel.ubuntu.com/git the two git trees with packaging for -lowlatency kernel (if you are interested). <persia> abogani, Great! Thanks. <astraljava> abogani: Sweet! <scott-work> persia: you were mentioned as a good example in jono's latest blog :) http://www.jonobacon.org/2010/11/05/making-our-world-more-respectful/ <abogani> :-) <scott-work> i am assuming jono's post is at least partially in response to Bradley Kuhn's questions of Canonical's possible use of "open core" business model, but i speculate of course <JFo> so does Brad Kuhn :-) <JFo> speculate that is ;) <scott-work> lol JFo <JFo> :) <astraljava> persia: Totally the wrong channel for this, but you mentioned your quest for a decent light browser; have you checked out midori? <persia> scott-work, Also in response to discussions at plumbers that we aren't seeing clearly. <persia> astraljava, Indeed I have: it's not quite what I want: heavier than the really light stuff, but lacking things I expect in the richer experience. <astraljava> persia: That's not a very encouraging review. :D We were thinking about it for Flux', but let's see. <persia> astraljava, For flux, it's probably a fine choice. I have somewhat idiosyncratic wants in terms of browsers. Midori works. <astraljava> persia: Okay, cool. Thanks! Will have to put it under heavy testing. <persia> It doesn't have the desktop integration of epiphany, nor the delicious separation of concerns of uzbl or luakit. I don't think the last two are interesting for most folk, and the first only makes sense if you already have GNOME. <persia> (mind you, the KDE guys are doing some interesting things with rekonq: which ends up being something like an integration wrapper library around the Qt webkit wrapper tools. You might be able to do something like that for luakit, but that's upstream work vs. distro work. <persia> BTW, where is the flux stuff being discussed? <astraljava> persia: #fluxbuntu-devel, you're most welcome :) <astraljava> persia: re: rekonq, really interesting! <scott-work> persia: are you saying that "we aren't seeing clearly" the discussion amy08@example.org that that discussion at plumbers is saying that "we aren't seeing clearly"? <persia> scott-work, That we aren't at plumbers, so only have a very limited view into discussions there. I think it's more than just response to one thing, but response to a wider volume of complaint (which often happens at plumbers). <scott-work> persia: that is what i thought you meant, but i'm probably being a little daft presently, work has my head wrapped around pretty well currently <scott-work> a little cheeky, this -> http://identi.ca/ubuntutwo <persia> Yep. Some of what is says hits just the right nerves though (and pours hyperbole on issues that would benefit from resolution) <paultag> ScottL, I tweeted that earlier, it's so good, I love it so much #ubuntustudio-devel 2010-11-06 <ScottL> stochastic, you have done some really good stuff with the tasks and workflows <ScottL> do you think that you could work up your alternate to zettberlin's movie soundtrack task soon? <ScottL> i am anxious to wrap up the seeds in the next week to allow time for testing/fixing before the first alpha <stochastic> ScottL, I simply don't have time within the next week to think about touching that page, maybe in a week or two I could get more edits in. <stochastic> ScottL, since your first announcement to list that those workflows would be dictating Natty's meta packages, was only seven days ago, I'd highly advise you to take more time to gather input from the community before solidifying new meta package plans <stochastic> There are a LOT of workflows that need to still be added to that page to encompass what Ubuntu Studio is about. <persia> It's probably safe to have a graduated rollout. Have a first revision of the changes to the new model based on what is currently available, and then adjust/revise/add as more is learned. <ScottL> stochastic, you are absolutely correct, i am fortunate and grateful for you advice :) <ScottL> i have been thinking about tasks and workflows for quite a while, therefore the time between my email and now seemed much long :P <ScottL> <ScottL> i am curious about which types of workflows you feel are still needed, i had considered it more or less complete except for some small odds and ends <ScottL> this could be a good educational lesson on perspective for me <ScottL> <ScottL> persia, good idea, my goal will be to push the seeds this weekend for your (and/or luke's) review <ScottL> then i'll see about ./update the meta #ubuntustudio-devel 2010-11-08 <holstein> http://blogs.computerworld.com/17303/ubuntu_abandons_x_server_for_wayland?source=rss_blogs <holstein> i think we are going to have to look at a good lond term solution <holstein> instead of just using gnome from the repo <holstein> when unity becomes default <holstein> long term solution* * abogani waves <abogani> Anyone know if fglrx works on Lucid -rt kernel (2.6.31)? <ScottL> http://gnuguitarinux.sourceforge.net/ interestng, livecd for guitarist basically <astraljava> abogani: Sorry, no hardware to test that. <abogani> astraljava: Thanks anyway. :-) <abogani> falktx: May I disturb you for a couple of simple questions? <falktx> abogani: sure <abogani> falktx: Thanks <abogani> falktx: About that packages https://launchpad.net/~falk-t-j/+archive/lucid/+sourcepub/1279298/+listing-archive-extra <abogani> falktx: Is it works? <falktx> abogani: yes <falktx> at least they compile <falktx> (cant really test it cause I have intel) <abogani> falktx: No any further test? <abogani> falktx: Moreover why you have chose 8.762 when in Lucid there is 8.723? <falktx> abogani: i think a user reported it to work <falktx> abogani: i copied it from xorg-updates ppa and added the rt patch <abogani> falktx: Ah ok. <falktx> I'll update them again when I have time <abogani> falktx: Ok <abogani> falktx: That's all! Thank you very much and sorry for disturb! <falktx> abogani: you dont disturb <falktx> i'm always glad to help anywhere I can * abogani is wondering if there are any fglrx users here... <holstein> abogani: i'll look at this laptop i just got in <holstein> assuming i can get it to boot ;) <holstein> i could run some tests with it before i give it back <holstein> other than that i would have older ATI hardware #ubuntustudio-devel 2010-11-09 <abogani> holstein: Sorry to bother you. I would want know if there a working combination with -rt/-realtime kernels and fglrx driver. For example Lucid -rt kernel (2.6.31) works with Lucid fglrx driver? <quadrispro> ScottL, naspro is available in Natty <quadrispro> then (new software in natty)... <quadrispro> jack-mixer <TheMuso> quadrispro: Thanks for your help re rtkit. <quadrispro> TheMuso, ehy! you're welcome! <quadrispro> TheMuso, how are you? Do you have other good things for Debian? <TheMuso> quadrispro: Yes, but on other fronts, mostly a11y. Being frozen atm is a slight pain however. <quadrispro> ah ok <quadrispro> have you had a look at new JACK stuff uploaded? <TheMuso> quadrispro: Do you mean jack clients, or the jack servers themselves? <quadrispro> JACK toys (-mixer,-keyboard) <quadrispro> and more are coming <TheMuso> Right, no I haven't looked. <TheMuso> SOmewhat busy with more important audio matters, and unity a11y for this cycle. <quadrispro> ah yes, I understand <ScottL> quadrispro, awesome! thanks #ubuntustudio-devel 2010-11-10 <aiyer> Hi, i'm interested in helping out with UbuntuStudio <quadrispro> bye guys, going to sleep <aiyer> I read this blog post -- http://dullass.blogspot.com/2010/08/state-of-ubuntu-studio-2010.html and thought that I would like to get involved in open source development. <aiyer> Although, I know that the post is 3 months old, I thought i'd inquire and see if I could offer any assistance <aiyer> So, whom do I contact and what do I say? <ScottL> hi ariyer <ScottL> doh, sorry, thought you were aiyer #ubuntustudio-devel 2010-11-12 <abogani> From https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDSProceedings/N/Final: "low-latency will remain a community supported flavour. " <falktx> hi abogani <falktx> abogani: do you plan to keep/maintain the natty lowlatency kernel ? <abogani> falktx: I really don't know. <falktx> abogani: it would be nice if you did <falktx> many people seem to use the lowlatency kernel, and I understand why <falktx> it's like realtime, but it doesnt have the issues <abogani> falktx: Not so much evidently. <scott-work> but firewire users will still need the realtime kernel :( <quadrispro> falktx, I had a look at j2sc <quadrispro> without trying, I should do it soon <falktx> quadrispro: it's outdated <quadrispro> falktx, does it work fine with jackd2? <quadrispro> ah well :) <quadrispro> scott-work, hello! <quadrispro> hi abogani ! <falktx> quadrispro: let me push a new release to sourceforge... <quadrispro> falktx, take your time :) <scott-work> hi quadrispro , how are you doing <quadrispro> scott-work, fine here, thanks! and you? <scott-work> quadrispro: how hard do you think it would be add JACK functionality to an app like mumber? <scott-work> quadrispro: i'm overwhelmed right now by work and family life :/ i think i'm going slowly mad :P <scott-work> s/mumber/mumble <falktx> scott-work: i already have a patch for audio output through jack <scott-work> falktx: is it a patch that can be submitted into the archives? <scott-work> that would be my goal <holstein> its not ideal though <holstein> right falktx ? <holstein> just a quick and dirty fix? <falktx> holstein: yep, someone send it to me once <holstein> i think thats why its not submitted <falktx> yep <quadrispro> pardon, the phone <quadrispro> scott-work, no too hard, if done by upstream :) otherwise it needs a bit of time <falktx> quadrispro: you should check this - http://repo.or.cz/w/cadence.git <falktx> screenshot - http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net/tmp/scr002.jpg <scott-work> quadrispro: eh, upstream didn't seem to happy about it really <falktx> not yet ready, but works <quadrispro> what's this falktx ? <scott-work> falktx: i like the little icons on the top, left <falktx> quadrispro: scott-work: my new app <falktx> or apps <falktx> just try it <quadrispro> cool, I will <falktx> get the code, compile (needs python and python-qt4-dev) an run "python src/catia.py" <falktx> quadrispro: tell me what you think <quadrispro> falktx, ah please, don't rely on a Makefile, use distutils instead <falktx> quadrispro: i have to check on a tutorial first <quadrispro> so: write a small setup.py script, it would be better to manage through DH <quadrispro> falktx, if I find some time, I'll provide you a brief script <falktx> i'll look into it later <falktx> quadrispro: what do you think about festige ? <falktx> i removed the pyjack dependency <quadrispro> scott-work, omg, I have ~30 channels,queries opened, I'm going mad too :( <quadrispro> falktx, sincerely: I don't remember :) there were some issues which blocked us to make a package... <falktx> quadrispro: i'll be happy to solve this issues <falktx> quadrispro: j2sc new release - https://sourceforge.net/projects/j2sc/files/0.1.1/ <falktx> quadrispro: have you tried it? <quadrispro> not yet <quadrispro> falktx, please file an ITP for festige <falktx> ITP ? <quadrispro> Intent To Package <quadrispro> falktx, reportbug wnpp <quadrispro> no falktx, sorry <quadrispro> $ reportbug -B debian wnpp <falktx> i'll try <falktx> quadrispro: first time i do this... <scott-work> after natty seeds and the updated website progress a bit more i'm hoping to get a "Ubuntu Studio Store" started like cory had intended previously <quadrispro> falktx, there is always a first time :)) <scott-work> i hope to use the proceeds to fund some development work <scott-work> e.g. adding JACK to mumble (or something similar) <falktx> scott-work: US store ? <scott-work> falktx: i imagine that i need to clear all this with canonical first, but i wanted to talk to linux outlaws about their store and hopefull it will be global (or US and non-US) <falktx> cool <quadrispro> guys, I have to leave <quadrispro> see you later <falktx> cya! <scott-work> by quadrispro <scott-work> er bye <quadrispro> byeguys <holstein> quadrispro: :) * falktx just send the bug report to debian #ubuntustudio-devel 2010-11-17 <scott-work> persia: do you have time for a short pm? <scott-work> i don't believe we are currently shipping module-jack-sink <scott-work> does anyone have an opinion if we should? #ubuntustudio-devel 2010-11-18 <ScottL> abogani, is a patch required when compiling the -lowlatency kernel? <TheMuso> ScottL: For what? <ScottL> TheMuso, i am presuming you meant why do we need a patch to compile the -lowlatency kernel? <TheMuso> ScottL: I meant for what, in terms of configs/features? The plan is that we shouldn't need anything other than differing configs compared to the mainline Ubuntu kernels. <ScottL> TheMuso, exactly, that was my understanding as well, JFo had mentioned that someone told him that the -lowlatency and -preempt kernels still needed invasive patching, much like i expect the -rt kernel <ScottL> perhaps the person JFo was discussing this with was planning on including other features? <ScottL> oh, TheMuso, would you mind reviewing some seed changes if i push them? they are a bit pervasive, so it may take some time to review it <stochastic> ScottL, yes we should ship module-jack-sink <ScottL> stochastic, do you know if it is stable? will this allow us to route audio stream through jack and vise versa? <stochastic> I last used it in 10.04 on occasion and found it to be slightly unreliable, but yes, audio can be routed through Jack with this module enabled. <stochastic> it'd be nice to include this module as a on/off switch in Ubuntu Studio Controls <ScottL> stochastic, do you feel like coding it in python perhaps? that would be pretty awesoem <ScottL> s/awesoem/awesome <stochastic> ScottL, possibly <ScottL> stochastic, do you think also you might be able to fix the changes to the limits.conf file, where jack now sets the rtprio in the other file? <stochastic> probably not - I don't even know what the current system uses * stochastic has fallen out of date with development and is still running 10.04 * stochastic is also working 65+ hours a week in a kitchen (far from a computer) leaving little time to sleep let alone get back into the swing of things <stochastic> ScottL, another suggestion - don't know how tricky this would be, but could we change the homepage of firefox to be either ubuntustudio.org or the community documentation homepage? I've read a number of users stating that there is not enough initial tutorials available for people who first boot into the OS. <ScottL> stochastic, good suggestion, which ties into something someone else mentioned today <ScottL> they talking about including some tutorial videos on the image, which i thought was bloody brilliant <ScottL> although i'm unsure how to set firefox's homepage <TheMuso> ScottL: You did tell them that they would have to get those videos into the archive right? <TheMuso> ScottL: Maybe later, rather busy atm. <TheMuso> re seeds. <ScottL> TheMuso, no to the former, although i am aware of the requirement <TheMuso> Ok. <ScottL> but example content is included in vanilla ubuntu so it's not unheard of <TheMuso> Right. <ScottL> TheMuso, re: seeds, that's okay, i'm hoping to get persia to do it soon (i should have had it done already) <stochastic> ScottL, I googled it quickly and found a thing about adjusting a deb package to set the homepage (though a launcher thrown onto the desktop that runs "firefox http://pathToDocs" would also suffice) <ScottL> stochastic, lol, i was typing the "launcher on desktop" when you typed that :) <ScottL> that could be included in an existing package like -settings or something else i guess <stochastic> exactly, only problem with that might be that it's a bit hacky <ScottL> very true, i'll look at google for this later (couple of weeks probably) after i finish some other tasks <stochastic> actually ScottL, the more I think about it, there's nothing terribly hacky about putting a "help" launcher on the desktop and the settings package would be the perfect place for it <stochastic> though if networking is broken out of the box, then pointing to a http location would not be so elegant <ScottL> lol, very true stochastic :P <ScottL> i'm tempted to put network manager back into the seeds though, the "fix' for network-admin apparently isn't quite desirable as could be expected for users :( <stochastic> personally I'm fine with network manager - I've always installed it right after first boot on my machines <holstein> personally, i think the pro audio guys that would be worried about it <holstein> would know how to get rid of it <holstein> and the other guys just loading up UbStu have the hardest time with it <stochastic> ^ totally agree. Those who are serious about NEEDING the cpu power that network manager consumes (hardly any) are generally not booting Ubuntu anyway. <ScottL> you two have convinced me, i'll update the seeds :) <stochastic> ScottL, also - I don't have time or the exact expertise, but I think the topic on the workflow about "Sequence music using MIDI" should be split up a bit - it's kind of like saying "Create graphics with a mouse" <stochastic> In my opinion, there should be separate workflows for things like "create a bass line" or "play a synth pad", etc... and the best soft synths should be narrowed down that way <ScottL> stochastic, i agree with you, but, alas, i don't have the expertise either, although i'll ask the guy who made it if he could expand on it a bit, good suggestion :) <stochastic> holstein are you familiar with these workflows ^^ <holstein> not enough to be helpful :/ <abogani> ScottL: No. The lowlatency kernel don't require any patch at the moment (it could change in the future) . <ScottL> stochastic, it was a friend of mine and holstein's who did the workflows of which you speak, his name is [lsd] from #opensourcemusicians <ScottL> abogani, thank you for the answer :) <abogani> ScottL: You are welcome :-) <scott-work> persia: are you around? <persia> I am. <scott-work> persia: do you mind if we pm for a moment? <persia> You may always /query me without asking or invitation (although I can't promise any specific response time). Now is OK for me. #ubuntustudio-devel 2010-11-19 <TheMuso> abogani: I really need to try and find some time to take a look at the low latency kernel, and see about getting it into natty. <ScottL> TheMuso, someone is supposed to prepare a procedure for doing that <ScottL> from the kernel team, hold on, i'll see if i can find who, just gotta look <ScottL> ah yes, TheMuso , apw is supposed to make a procedure to get kernel variants into the archives <ScottL> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-version-and-flavours <ScottL> i'm feeling antsy about this <TheMuso> ah ok. * ScottL wants to keep telling people, "we're running out of time people, we're running out of time" <TheMuso> Heh. <ScottL> i have so far managed not to do it ;) <ScottL> i believe persia expects something within the next week or so <TheMuso> ok <persia> Rather, I have been asked to notify someone able to escalate the issue within Canonical if there remains nothing the week past next. Next week is expected to be slower, as both the person asking me to watch the specification and the person to whom they would escalate are expected to be distracted by the Thanksgiving holiday. <ScottL> persia, it appears that gdebi is bringing in phonon...seems very strange <ScottL> however, i got interrupted as i was working on this by my kids fighting so i need to go back upstairs and confirm <scott__> scott@lucid-studio:~$ aptitude why phonon <scott__> i gdebi-kde Depends python-kde4 (>= 3.16.0-0ubuntu11) <scott__> i A python-kde4 Depends phonon (>= 4:4.5.2) <scott__> that's the output <scott__> i was going to grep the seeds and see where this is coming in <scott__> and it appears that the dekstop seed is adding gdebi on line 104 <scott__> very strange that including gdebi works itself into including phonon into ubuntustudio :/ <scott__> hmmm, it would also appear that wacom-tools package is not in the repos anymore <scott__> ack, silly me, actually it's the 'install-package' package that is pulling in gdebi-kde <scott__> bleargh, i can't figure it out, it all looks like one big circular dependency at this point <ScottL> hi paultag <persia> ScottL, Find out what pulls gdebi-kde: it may be possible to pull gdebi instead (the GNOME GUI), and still satisfy the dependencies without pulling phonon. <paultag> good evening there ScottL <scott__> persia, it seems circular according to 'aptitude why gdebi-kde' <scott__> it depends on phyton-kde4 <scott__> which depends on kdebase-runtime <scott__> which *recommends* kubuntu-debug-installer <scott__> which depends on kpackagekit <scott__> which depends on software-properties-kde <scott__> which depends on install-package <scott__> which depends on gdebi-kde <scott__> my brain hurts <TheMuso> Afaik gdebi is going away, adn the software centre will manage deb installs from now on IIRC. <persia> ScottL, There's probably an entry
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