#ubuntu-uds-junior-ballroom-1 2012-05-07
<Saviq> hi Renato! ;)
<Saviq> hi Albert :)
<Saviq> hey Zoltan
<tsdgeos> Saviq: you greeted me while i wasn't here yet
<Saviq> tsdgeos, that's because I heard you on Icecast :)
<tsdgeos> did you?
<tsdgeos> ok
<tsdgeos> stop looking at the screen jonathan
<thiago> hello
<tsdgeos> hi
<Mirv> hello world
<Saviq> hey
<thiago> #ubuntu-uds-junior-ballroom-1 (for those who can't read the shortened version on screen)
<bzoltan> Hello Saviq
<Saviq> I wonder who can kick udsbotu to update the title
<Saviq> yes we can
<shirgall> We can hear you on the stream.
<thiago> http://www.macieira.org/blog/qt-stats/
<txwikinger> o/
<txwikinger> just saying hallo
<Saviq> hey  pstolowski
<thiago> http://qt-project.org/wiki/QtMediaHub
<mikhas> AlanBell, o/
<Saviq> in Ubuntu with QML (a11y backported into 4.8 by fregl), Unity-2D is said to be "99% accessible"
<Saviq> AFAIK the same went into Qt5
<mikhas> I would like to see A11Y be moved lower in the stack anyway (e.g., wayland), and then, as thiago said, it would be in the framework bits of Qt, without app developers having to worry about it too much.
<Saviq> mikhas, not that easy, just reading the text of, say, a button, is often not enough
<Saviq> mikhas, there needs to be additional data about things that are represented visually
<mikhas> no, it isnt, you need screen reading, UI navigation and input.
<mikhas> (at least)
<pstolowski> Saviq, hey
<Saviq> simple screen reading could be implemented lower, but an app developer still would need to be able to influence it, or replace, even
<pstolowski> Saviq, I talked to fregl several times, and to my understanding Qt5 has a11y reworked compared to 4.8+a11 patch
<Saviq> mikhas, think the launcher icons, we have data like app name, how many windows are running, progress bars, notification count
<Saviq> pstolowski, API wise, or just backend wise?
<pstolowski> Saviq, e.g. in 4.8+patch there are still areas that just have stub/unimplemented code (e.g. text input in qml)
<Saviq> pstolowski, yeah, sure, so it got even better in Qt5
<mikhas> Saviq, that's a good reason why it needs to lower in the stack.
<pstolowski> Saviq, afaik public api stays, but underneath it has been reworked and cannot even be backported easily anymore
<mikhas> Imagine Unity running on Wayland, then you'd have all the bits in one place.
<girishr_> http://wiki.qt-project.org/Devices pi packages - http://wiki.qt-project.org/Devices/RaspberryPi
<Saviq> mikhas, all that data needs to be presented to a11y, you don't want to navigate from icon to progress bar to notification counter etc.
<mikhas> I know, there has been some great research by http://www.aegis-project.eu/ to find out more about that, and to come up for solutions.
<mikhas> *with solutions
<mikhas> re: Wayland + runtime switch; a good example of why frameworks can be useful ;-)
<Saviq> what about functional testing? testability seems to be orphaned? what's the recommended UI testing platform going forward?
<mikhas> Saviq, there is TDriver right now, for UI testing, but it uses Ruby as its scripting language â¦
<Saviq> mikhas, yes, and AFAIK it's being orphaned i.e. noone sponsors it anymore
<mikhas> (TDriver probes into Qt UIs through A11Y layer, AFAIK)
<Saviq> not a11y
<Saviq> it introspects the object tree
<Saviq> gtg
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-junior-ballroom-1 to: Track: Cloud & Server | OpenStack HA  | Audio:
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-junior-ballroom-1 to: Track: Cloud & Server | OpenStack HA  | Audio: http://icecast.ubuntu.com:8000/junior-ballroom-1.ogg.m3u
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-junior-ballroom-1 to: Track: Cloud & Server | OpenStack HA | Url:  | Audio: http://icecast.ubuntu.com:8000/junior-ballroom-1.ogg.m3u
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-junior-ballroom-1 to: Track: Cloud & Server | OpenStack HA | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20674/servercloud-q-openstack-ha/ | Audio: http://icecast.ubuntu.com:8000/junior-ballroom-1.ogg.m3u
<SpamapS> FYI: Parallel discussion regarding "cloud agnostic way to define resources in juju" in room 201 .. OpenStack interested folks might want to join in.
<SpamapS> We could use a glance expert in room 201 actually, trying to figure out how much glance exposes about what OS an image provides.
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<zyga> hello
<zyga> anyone in the room?
<zyga> hmm
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-junior-ballroom-1 to: Track: Cloud & Server | Openstack Juju Charms Next Steps | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20673/servercloud-q-openstack-charms/ | Audio: http://icecast.ubuntu.com:8000/junior-ballroom-1.ogg.m3u
<SpamapS> hallohallo
<SpamapS> o/ reading you
<med_> you are on screen
<med_> how was the audio check?
 * med_ waves at rnathuji 
<rnathuji> I'm not able to get audio
<JoseeAntonioR> Anyone else having audio problems?
<SpamapS> http://icecast.ubuntu.com:8000/junior-ballroom-1.ogg direct link.. works great for me.
<rnathuji> got it now
<med_> cool.
<med_> adam_g is talking through the etherpad.
<SpamapS> awsome?
<SpamapS> adam_g: The CI lab charms should be the ones that are in lp:charms/* ... is that the case?
<SpamapS> Its no small feature. Its huge!
<ttx> SpamapS: It's almost awesome.
<SpamapS> It allows hooks to defer their actions until they can succeed, so charms don't need to be dependent on the order relations are established.
<SpamapS> I have one idea for that using 'charm splice'
<med_> can you then kill the existing spliced charm once other nodes providing that service are up?
<SpamapS> subordinates are done, but they carry a 1:1 relationship for all components
<SpamapS> I/O death
<SpamapS> building 7*mini-ubuntu's are painful for I/O
<SpamapS> agreed ttx .. splice is a hack
 * SpamapS said the Hacker
<med_> heh.
<SpamapS> Should work on RAX or HP Cloud if we can solve the S3 issues.
<SpamapS> its not anywhere official yet because its fairly hacky
<SpamapS> To be clear, for basic dev purposes, you can use the 'placement: local' hack
<SpamapS> lp:~clint-fewbar/charm-tools/add-splice-command <-- the hack
<med_> "placement: local" is the LXC local provider? Or something else?
<SpamapS> med_: placement: local causes services to be deployed to node 0
<med_> in containers?
<SpamapS> LXC has the ability to do copy-on-write for the 'lxc-clone' already
<SpamapS> that would help a lot
<SpamapS> There were also issues with scsi namespacing
<SpamapS> perhaps somebody could go find smoser so he can comment?
<SpamapS> yes
<SpamapS> The CI lab charms should be the ones that are in lp:charms/* ... is that the case?
<SpamapS> drbd should be doable as a subordinate
<SpamapS> pacemaker needs a reliable network between nodes does it not?
<SpamapS> SURE!
 * SpamapS <heart> subordinates
<SpamapS> I just wonder about how well we can define "a dedicated network between those nodes" w/o tagging in maas
<SpamapS> drbd really needs the same thing
<SpamapS> I want all the goodness in the main charms. No me gusta forks.
<SpamapS> You should make your hacks subordinates.
<SpamapS> Or config.yaml items
<ttx> subordinates ?
<SpamapS> I want people to be able to use the charm store to be able to repeat the CI testing. It will gather effort around CI testing of openstack around the same place rather than encouraging it to diverge.
<SpamapS> ttx: subordinates can be used to add custom functionality to a generic charm.
<med_> rnathuji, anything you wanted to bring up in the charm discussions?
<SpamapS> Alright I trust you to give us all/most of the important stuff :)
<SpamapS> Thats all I have.
<rnathuji> no, nothing specific.  it sounds like things are in a state to try throwing onto arm clusters w/lxc as virt.  I haven't yet done that exercise, though :).  I'm also curious as to quantum support, but that sounds nascent yet.
<SpamapS> ++++
<SpamapS> session tomorrow about openstack+ceph/rbd
<med_> thanks adam_g
<SpamapS> CEPH upstream will be in attendance
<SpamapS> ceph charm sucks
 * SpamapS said the author
<SpamapS> cheers!
<SpamapS> ttx: I hear you, and I agree. Make a juju based devstack so real deployments are more like developer deployments thus eliminating disconnect bugs!
<SpamapS>  ___________________________________
<SpamapS> < somebody tell ttx to look up here >
<SpamapS>  -----------------------------------
<SpamapS>         \   ^__^
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<SpamapS> corvus: you sound great ;)
<SpamapS> 10 seconds?
<SpamapS> yes
<SpamapS> :( I hate living in the past
<SpamapS> so true
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<SpamapS> juju set mysql dataset-size=8M  <-- tunes mysql to use almost no RAM
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<SpamapS> juju set mysql tuning-level=fast <--- tunes mysql to not use fsyncs much
<SpamapS>  __________________
<SpamapS> < jim look up here >
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#ubuntu-uds-junior-ballroom-1 2012-05-08
<udsbotu> uds-jb-1: This session has ended.
<SpamapS> ok I'm going to move to another audio feed. :) been fun eavesdropping on you guys :)
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<txwikinger> yes
 * txwikinger can hear
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<benonsoftware> t
<benonsoftware> Oops, sorry
<Mkaysi> ?
<benonsoftware> Mkaysi: I entered something here by mistake
<Mkaysi> Ok
<klarson> welcome everyone
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<lig> there is nothing on the audio right now - correct?
<tfarmer> hi lig!
<lig> just want to make sure I have it all set up
<lig> they tfarmer darlin!
<lig> long time no hear
<tfarmer> lig: hear the audio now?
<lig> just got it now
<tfarmer> yay
<lig> Hi Todd!
<nxvl> Percona has .debs on their web page, i wonder how good/bad are they
<nxvl> maybe we can get the source package and work from there
<bytee> nxvl: yes, thats exactly what should be done. It shouldn't be completely difficult
<nxvl> bytee: in my experience, sometimes it is, upstreams are bad packagers, but it's a matter of taking a look
<bytee> Example: âDivision of large numbers could cause stack corruption. (Bug #11792200)â from http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.5/en/news-5-5-11.html
<udsbotu> Error: Ubuntu bug 11792200 could not be found
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 * lig hugs tfarmer back
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<daker_> hi
<daker_> uds-jb-1: can you post the link ?
<daker_> uds-jb-1: has anyone look at this before https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-support-and-learning-center ?
<daker_> looked*
<daker_> :)
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<antdillon> Hi is this: Transition help.ubuntu.com to SUMO ?
<daker_> antdillon: finished
<daker_> lunch time
<antdillon> daker_, Ah an hour out :( thanks
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<dmj726> How might one integrate tabs with quicklists?
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<sladen> charline: is this happening again tomorrow, or is everyone going to have gone home?
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<stokachu> im not familiar
<stokachu> What is the purpose of the run tab?
<stokachu> Ok thanks
<stokachu> The right click is not friendly to me
<stokachu> the the run tab get selected when clicking start testing?
<stokachu> did*
<stokachu> Ok, it didn't happen for me
<stokachu> Is closing and re-opening the application in order to re-run tests intentional?
<stokachu> So when I run checkbox and click informational tests, look at my results I have to close the application and re-open in order to have the ability to select additional tests to run. Rather than just selecting the 'Selection' tab and check off what I want
<cr3> stokachu: you mean after you've done running all tests, right?
<stokachu> One or all tests everything is greyed out
<stokachu> Excatly
<stokachu> Exactly
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<stokachu> Lastly, did we talk about possibly explaining what each tests will do if we click on a particular test or subtest
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<stokachu> maybe put a brief explanation in the status bar
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<cr3> https://launchpad.net/~cr3/+hwdb-submissions
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#ubuntu-uds-junior-ballroom-1 2012-05-09
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<cr3> cheerio folks!
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-junior-ballroom-1 to: Track: Foundations | Improving Reliability of Software RAID | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20591/foundations-q-software-raid/ | Audio: http://icecast.ubuntu.com:8000/junior-ballroom-1.ogg.m3u
<psusi> I believe the current status is that the init scripts time out waiting for the root fs, and then before dropping the user to the initramfs prompt, try to activate the raid array degraded... that only works for the root fs, not other degraded arrays
<psusi> instead the degrading should be done plug and play via udev
<psusi> the volume holding luks should be identified by udev/blkid as such and decrypted, and then udev/blkid should identify the contents of the luks volume as a raid component
<psusi> I would think that if human intervention is required for luks anyhow, that enabling automatic boot to degraded mode would not make sense anyhow
<psusi> afaik, blkid identifies a device as a raid component, and that triggers udev to invoke mdadm --incremental, which activates the array if all devices are found already
<xnox> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReliableRaid
<xnox> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BootDegradedRaid
<xnox> psusi, hello 0/ =)
<psusi> o/
 * psusi beats the icecast server
<psusi> the low level kernel disk driver IO error is probably unimportant... the important part is when mdadm notices the error and fails the disk, and when it does that, it normally sends root an email about the event, but ubuntu typically has no mail server installed so that falls into /dev/null
<psusi> no, drive registration order is not at all consistent
<psusi> that's why we moved to using UUIDs in /etc/fstab
<xnox> ok
<psusi> that sounds like a bug in udev/blkid
<psusi> udev/blkid should identify the partition as a luks container so it won't get assigned a fs UUID and won't be mounted directly without going thorugh mdadm
<xnox> ok.
<psusi> I wonder... if he was using the whole disk as a raid component instead of a partition, that could trigger it
<xnox> the notifications will be handled as part of the 'Degraded Hardware Notifications' spec which i'm driving
<psusi> since blkid may identify sda as a raid component, but sda1 still gets identified as a luks volume or fs and accessed without mdadm
<xnox> psusi: interesting
<psusi> that seems related to an issue I've kind of felt should be changed for a few years now... that being that the kernel partition code should be removed and udev should handle it so it can do things like NOT recognize partitions when the raw disk is part of a raid array
<xnox> there were some bugs about 'leftover' metada which doesn't match what was suppose to be assembled correctly
<xnox> ok.
<psusi> there is scsi enclosure services... if the hardware suppors SES, then there is a /sys way to make a light blink to identify a drive, you just have to map from /dev/sda to the enclosure slot
<psusi> iirc, there was a question on askubuntu or unix&linux lately about how to do this with a good answer
<psusi> same thing ;)
<xnox> I will monitor askubuntu about raid/lvm stuff =)
<psusi> bingo!
<psusi> http://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/36915/locate-disk-in-sas-enclosure
<psusi> could you try to speak more towards the mic please?
<psusi> did someone move the mic?  I can't hear anything now
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<bobweaver> can you turn up the mic I can not hear you
<bobweaver> QUESTION: Hello I am upstream dev ,People on debian want too get yell and scream about software and "Yet another program that ubuntu is not sharing" but then when you go to submit things too them. they yell at you make you feel like trash and tell you that you are no-good. the policy is old and out of control How too deal with that ?
<bobweaver> Thanks !
<bobweaver> quickly is still broken >
<bobweaver> ?
<carif> QUESTION: what's the "trello board"?
<carif> got it, ty
<dpm> http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20413/community-q-upstream-outreach/
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#ubuntu-uds-junior-ballroom-1 2012-05-10
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<mpt> We could provide a standalone privacy settings window in those previous releases, using the same strings (and translations) as 12.04
<mpt> (Is allocating problems to the appropriate package perhaps more of a topic for the bucketing session?)
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<daker_> uds-jb-1: can you come next to the mic pls
<nxvl> i can hear ok
<daker_> 5/5
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#ubuntu-uds-junior-ballroom-1 2012-05-11
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-junior-ballroom-1 to: Track: Foundations | Continued development of the Ubuntu error tracker | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20488/foundations-q-crash-database/ | Audio: http://icecast.ubuntu.com:8000/junior-ballroom-1.ogg.m3u
<mpt> ^_^
<mpt> Hey lifeless
<mpt> Accept no imitations!
<lifeless> o/
<lifeless> mpt: speak up :)
<mpt> At least once we get the graph showing something sensible, it should be moving around just as much five years from now as it is the first week
<mpt> (That's not a goal, but it would be an emergent property of doing the right thing)
<mpt> There's a tradeoff between alerting developers promptly to a sudden problem (which should show up as a dip in the graph), vs. being accurate (which requires taking a longer-duration sample)
<mpt> compare http://arewefastyet.com/ (which used to be much more interesting than it is now)
<mpt> Agreed on only a few days old by default
<mpt> I can hear lifeless fine
<mpt> but at the expense of hearing it 10 seconds late
<mpt> (where by "it" I mean "everything", sorry lifeless)
<mpt> (or more likely, increases)
<mpt> They're correlated to the extent that more computers make it a bit more likely that their problems will be unique
<mpt> We could fiddle that somehow by only counting machines that have reported at least 2 problems, or somethng like that
<lifeless> mpt: they are, OTOH more machines also means more reporting of common problems :)
<mpt> sure
<lifeless> mpt: so both more density and a longer tail, if you do a histogram
<mpt> exactly
<mpt> Oh, lifeless has eyes now
<lifeless> o-o
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<lifeless> wow, skype uses a full core
<lifeless> nonstop, fingers burning on keyboard
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 * cmagina is currently running a multi node hadoop on arm
<cmagina> via openjdk
<dannf> it isn't uncommon for a lot of network traffic to "take out" a bmc - even on modern intel-based systems
<dannf> broadcast ping will suffer from ^
<dannf> right - i'm just saying that "network storms" can make some bmcs unresponsive
<dannf> but yeah, unicast response helps that
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<dannf> heh
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<xnox> mpt: are you attending this session? would you like g+ and or skype?
<mpt> xnox, Skype would be good, thanks
<mpt> You don't have to stay here, I'm also listening to the streaming audio
<Chipaca> mpt: i can give you video via skype or g+ if you wish
<mpt> If submitting from a PPA is a common action, maybe we should add a link to that from the PPA page (showing up if you're the PPA admin)
<ajmitch> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AppReviewBoard/Submissions/Request
<mpt> The #1 problem with changelogs is that they currently aren't written for users
<mpt> The problem with putting any changes in the description is that it doesn't know which version you currently have installed
<mpt> I can, but the audio lags behind reality by about 10 seconds so I'd almost certainly interrupt someone
<mpt> :-)
<mpt> Adding a link wrapped in a permission would be, like, 20 lines of diff
<mpt> It's not rocket surgery
<ajmitch> just setting up LP & writing tests can take some time :)
 * mpt waves to akk
<akk> hi, mpt
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<ChipaPhone> mpt, battery running out
<mpt> no worries
<ChipaPhone> so is the session:)
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<Chipaca> ahhh.... moar batteries
<mpt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NotificationDesignGuidelines
<mpt> How about *nearly* full home/usr partition?
<mpt> because it's likely to become full in the near future
<mpt> Possibly-crappy network info might belong in the Network settings panel
<mpt> (I haven't seen the screenshot you're referring to)
<mpt> Maybe a nearly-full warning should be megabyte-based, not percentage-based
<mpt> ah, joy, notify-osd fallback
<mpt> That sounds like reasonable
<mpt> For each kind of warning, the design needs to include what advice to offer
<mpt> on how to fix the problem
<mpt> ---
<mpt> You don't care that a USB key is nearly full either, probably -- more about /home and /usr
<mpt> ---
<mpt> ... For each warning type, we also need to think about when to present it -- for example, if a problem happens that will prevent you from logging in, we should present that not just immediately, but also when you try to log out, shut down, etc
<mpt> ---
<mpt> I suggest that each event have one work item for the design and one work item for the implementation
<mpt> It's unlikely that they will all be designed, or all implemented, at once
<mpt> ok :-)
<mpt> ---
<mpt> That software update redness is going away in 12.10
<mpt> (because software updates itselfis going away from the system menu)
<mpt> Update Manager already tells you if you need to restart. If you don't immediately, you're not any less secure than you were before you installed the update.
<mpt> No, it's an alert box
<mpt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareUpdates#alert
<mpt> (but that may need work to highlight when updates are security updates)
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<mpt> Yes, I'd love to help with the design
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<mpt> Lunchtime for me too
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<benonsoftware> Yay :D
<daker_> 5/5
<sagaci> HEY ALL YOU PEOPLE
<benonsoftware> Hiya sagaci
 * benonsoftware is sitting in a chair waiting
<benonsoftware> I have no sound :(
<sagaci> watch the etherpad
<daker_> benonsoftware: the stream is working
<benonsoftware> daker_: I have no sound card :(
<benonsoftware> I will :P
<daker_> ah
<benonsoftware> I will download the audio once it's finished though
<benonsoftware> Hiya philipballew
<philipballew> hello benonsoftware
<benonsoftware> Let's get started :D
<benonsoftware> BDFL?
<JoseeAntonioR> Benevolent Dictator For Life
<benonsoftware> Ah
<daker_> +1 for social media
<daker_> weekly/monthly hangout on G+ ?
<philipballew> daker_, you down to help with me on a once a month google hangout?
<daker_> will try
<benonsoftware> I'll help out if I can get WiFi
<benonsoftware> Credit to philipballew for Classroom sessions
<benonsoftware> I'm all for helping setup the sessions, just need people to run them
<philipballew> daker_, ill add me and you to the wiki
<benonsoftware> May I say something about the elections?
<philipballew> go for it
<benonsoftware> I suggest we have a election for all couincil members soon as it has been a long time since one has happened and some are not active with Ubuntu and IRC anymore
<benonsoftware> Daniel Bugl is one person who  has stopped using IRC for a while
<benonsoftware> I would say 3 months is too short
<benonsoftware> I would say 12 months
<benonsoftware> philipballew: have you gotten a response from the other council members yet?
<philipballew> no
<benonsoftware> Hmm, that is troubleing
<philipballew> hints the reelection I guess
<benonsoftware> philipballew: Yes, that is why electiuon would be good
<benonsoftware> But who should run?, how do we say you can/cannot run for election?
<benonsoftware> By, Should every current council member allowed to campaign if that means can they run again I would say yes
<bilal> benonsoftware: yes, every current member would be a candidate for the next election by default
<bilal> they could opt out though
<benonsoftware> Yes
<benonsoftware> philipballew: As you are TL when do you rthink will be a good time to run elections?
<benonsoftware> What was that?
<benonsoftware> Ah, never mind
<benonsoftware> Sorry about that
 * benonsoftware has to leave shortly
<bilal> benonsoftware: we've wrapped up
<bilal> benonsoftware: so... :)
<benonsoftware> Ah, okies
<benonsoftware> Could someone ping me once the audi ofile is uploaded
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<mpt> hi
<mpt> The hardware IDs are already not personally identifiable. The privacy issue has never been the presence of the hardware ID, it's been that the crash report might contain *other* personally identifable information. Right?
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{'channel': 'ubuntu-uds-junior-ballroom-1', 'month': 5}