#ubuntu-desktop 2009-06-01 <dobey> vuntz: ping. so i totally forget what your feedback was for https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~dobey/intltool/intltoolize-version-magic other than recalling you suggested a possible change :-/ <robert_ancell> racarr: hi <pitti> hello all <pitti> just a quick drive-by <pitti> national holiday today, and apparently I finally caught the Ubuflu today, so I'll keep it easy <crevette> hey pitti <didrocks> pitti: hey pitti o/ Have a good rest :) <yokobr> once uppon the time, when the hot sun fadded behind the mountains, the shadow of a stron man with a gun in his han raised to protect the good people of the "hacienda". They call him "El Justiciero". <Tm_T> yokobr: ok <chrisccoulson> huh? <chrisccoulson> hi mpt - i'm currently implementing this spec you wrote: http://live.gnome.org/LowDiskSpaceWarning <mpt> chrisccoulson, cool <chrisccoulson> do you think it should have a computer-janitor button if its installed? <mpt> That would make sense <mpt> but not both the computer-janitor button and the baobab button <mpt> that would be too many <mpt> just baobab if computer-janitor isn't installed, I think <chrisccoulson> mpt - yeah, that makes sense. the dialog is already quite wide as it is <vuntz> dobey: I honestly don't remember what was my feedback, so just go ahead and merge it, I'd say <dobey> vuntz: hrmm. ok <dobey> mpt_, chrisccoulson: might i suggest that the [OK] button in that dialog be something other than [OK]? <dobey> perhaps [Ignore] or something more appropriate, becuase if it's OK, we shouldn't be popping up a dialog anyway <dobey> ubuntulog: help <dobey> meh <dobey> vuntz: ah! found the feedback in irc logs :) <dobey> vuntz: you suggested doing test -h $script -o ! -s $script <dobey> vuntz: but i think i'll just make it always remove the files instead <chrisccoulson> dobey - what would you suggest for the ok button then? some users will still want to dismiss the dialog without doing anything <dobey> chrisccoulson: then they are Ignoring it. if disk space is low, it's probably NOT ok :) <dobey> chrisccoulson: so perhaps "Ignore" would be better (it's also a verb) <dobey> "OK" is not a verb <chrisccoulson> yeah, ignore would probably be ok <chrisccoulson> although the dialog might reappear to pester them again later on when the disk fills up some more <dobey> low disk space warnings are really hard to get right <dobey> i know this, because i wrote the code in gnome-volume-manager to do low disk space notifications <dobey> if i have a half gig of free space, seeing a warning is probably not very appropriate :) <chrisccoulson> the code in the current g-s-d housekeeping plugin is copied from g-v-m i think <chrisccoulson> but i've adapted it quite a bit so that it knows if there are other usable volumes with space on before displaying the dialog, as the spec mpt wrote needs that to adapt what is shown in the dialog <dobey> it would be sweet if we had something which could index the average size of files on a partition, and do some logic based on that for annoying the user <dobey> but doing so would eat up a lot of disk i/o <chrisccoulson> yeah, thats not good <dobey> it's too bad all the file indexing stuff sucks :( <chrisccoulson> the current housekeeping plugin displays the dialog at 5% free space but only if there is less than 2GB on the volume <mpt> chrisccoulson, it should only happen for the partition that / or $HOME is on <dobey> yeah <chrisccoulson> i say "currently", but the current housekeeping plugin doesn't actually work <mpt> That my 4GB iPod contains 3.97 GB of stuff is not a problem, I deliberately filled it that way <dobey> mpt: but external disks should have notification as well... if there isn't enough room on my USB disk to store the presentation i'm working on, and i need to put it there, a notification would be nice :) <chrisccoulson> mpt - i could do that, but it would be more awkward to get right. i wouldn't want to just hardcode "/" and "/home", as that would be wrong. I have lots of internal partitions that i would want to be notified for <dobey> indeed <mpt> dobey, only if/when you actually try to move your presentation there. <mpt> Otherwise it's pointless. <dobey> i also have a seaprate disk for storing all my music/movies/etc... on <chrisccoulson> and if i hardcoded those values, my patch would never be accepted upstream <dobey> mpt: if i'm about to save it there, and i stick in the usb key, having to go through the tedious work to save it and have it fail, could be massively reduced by having the notification pop up as soon as the disk mounts <mpt> dobey, I disagree that retyping a filename is "massive" "tedious work". <mpt> If you have to respecify the destination folder, that's a bug in the filepicker. <dobey> mpt: you have to go back to file->save as, and then make sure you're in the right place, and then type the filename, and then push the save button <mpt> If I get a warning that my iPod is nearly full every time I connect it, I will not be happy. <dobey> mpt: so we should special case audio players, not avoid all external disks <dobey> hal/devicekit provide capability information so it can be used :) <mpt> Why are audio players special? <dobey> you just said they were <mpt> No I didn't, I gave it as an example. <dobey> then why is /home special? you pretty intentionally put files there... <mpt> The partitions that are special are the ones containing / and $HOME, because they often have files written to them by non-interactive processes. <dobey> if something is filling up your $HOME with crap, then it's a bug in the app that's doing it <mpt> If they were written to only by interactive processes, the "There's not enough room there" interactive errors would be enough. <dobey> what about the non-interactive stuff that auto-syncs podcasts to your ipod when you plug it in? you've subscribed to the podcast interactively, but the sync/management of that is mostly non-interactive <mpt> Yes, and in that situation iTunes puts up an alert saying "All downloads have been paused. The disk you are attempting to use is full." <mpt> (if you're trying to download more than will fit on the disk) <andreasn> dobey, like my web browser cache? <mpt> Or, if you're trying to put more on an audio player than will fit, words to the effect of: "There is not enough room on 'Alex's iPod' for the selected items (397.8 MB needed, 214.0 MB available)." <lool> rickspencer3: Hey; watching http://ishan.chattopadhyaya.com/blog/?p=56 made me think of quickly / anjuta; you probably thought of anjuta integration already I guess? <mpt> Or "No photos were copied to 'Alex's iPod' because there is not enough space after syncing the music and podcasts", etc. <dobey> andreasn: cache/history is buggy in all web browsers. <mpt> Those specific errors are much more useful than a generic "Hm, there's not much space left here" would be. <rickspencer3> lool: I'm thinking that we should make it easy for anyone to embed quickly into an IDE, but that we wouldn't do it ourselves, make sense? <kenvandine> rickspencer3: i did the menu re-org properly on the plane, it looks nice... i will build it in my ppa today and the design team can use that for the user testing <kenvandine> i think it looks noce <kenvandine> nice even <dobey> mpt: yes, because there is context. i don't think a generic "your disk space is probably low, but maybe it really isn't" notification for $HOME isn't particularly useful either. more contextual errors in apt, update-manager, etc... would be better i think <mpt> dobey, the type of processes that accumulate disk usage incrementally and non-interactively (IRC logs, Xorg logs, etc) are pretty exclusive to / or $HOME. <mpt> I agree apt should provide interactive errors too. (Something more for AppCenter...) <mpt> rickspencer3, do you have time for a call today about the AppCenter implementation process? <rickspencer3> mpt: actually, I'm taking holiday till Thursday <dobey> of course, disk space is cheap enough these days that most people will probably never see the low disk space notifications anyway <mpt> rickspencer3, ok. Is mvo on holiday too? <rickspencer3> if it will unblock, I could take a call in a few minutes, but would prefer to wait until Thrusday if at all reasonable <rickspencer3> mpt: I don't know <rickspencer3> mvo is on Foundations, you may need to talk to robbiew, actually <mpt> ah, whoops, I thought he was on Desktop <mpt> thanks <rickspencer3> just got my inbox to zero! <kenvandine> woot <kenvandine> i am almost there <kenvandine> :) <lool> rickspencer3: (It definitely makes sense) * kenvandine uploads gnome-menus to ppa <rickspencer3> kenvandine: you subversive you * kenvandine had 9 hours on the plane... did a little besides sleep <kenvandine> ok, i am going out to mow the lawn :) * rickspencer3 back to holiday time <rickspencer3> bye all <jbarnes_LHR> bluetooth headset discovery still seems manual <jbarnes_LHR> shouldn't the headset automatically show up in pulse etc when it pairs? <jbarnes_LHR> ubottu: bluez <ubottu> Sorry, I don't know anything about bluez <jbarnes_LHR> bryce: can you query ubottu for package owners somehow? <jbarnes_LHR> like whoowns bluez <Tm_T> IIRC no <jbarnes_LHR> I think it's a pulse issue anyway <Tm_T> !help | jbarnes_LHR <ubottu> jbarnes_LHR: Hi! I'm #ubuntu-desktop's favorite infobot, you can search my brain yourself at http://ubottu.com/factoids.cgi - Usage info: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBots <jbarnes_LHR> maybe the module-bluetooth-discover module isn't loaded <jbarnes_LHR> ah !help <bryce> jbarnes_LHR: not that I know of. I usually apt-get src and look through the control file and changelog to see who's touched it <kenvandine> mpt_: you can check out gnome-menus from my ppa, https://edge.launchpad.net/~ken-vandine/+archive/ppa for a POC for the menu re-org <kenvandine> i didn't rename System.... so if you tell me what you want there i can do that too <vuntz> kenvandine: oh, hrm, that's the change I want to push upstream <vuntz> kenvandine: except that you have internet & network <vuntz> I should really push that <kenvandine> vuntz: grab my patch :) <kenvandine> vuntz: our design team plans to do usability testing on that <vuntz> kenvandine: I have the same patch in openSUSE, except for the additional category <kenvandine> oh... cool <kenvandine> i followed the categories that slab gets <vuntz> it's actually the structure that you have in the control center shell <kenvandine> which i like <kenvandine> yes <kenvandine> exactly :) <andreasn> vuntz, did you get a lot of flames for disabling menu icons so far (except the mailing list thread)? <kenvandine> disabling menu icons? <vuntz> andreasn: we didn't do it since nobody else thought it was a good idea * kenvandine thinks it is a terrible idea :) <andreasn> oh * kenvandine goes back to actually taking the day off... <kenvandine> mpt: feedback would be appreciated :) <mpt> kenvandine, thanks -- I have a scarily large amount of work to do, but if you e-mail me about it I'll add it to my list of interesting things to look at on Fridays :-) <mpt> thanks for doing the work <kenvandine> understand :) * kenvandine just signed up for quite a bit of work today too :) <dobey> gah evolution is such horrible ui <Tm_T> dobey: have you tried Kontact? Dunno if it's different enough but... <dobey> Tm_T: also not the UI desire <Tm_T> roger roger <Tm_T> dobey: might like to summarise what's not good btw? <dobey> Tm_T: well using the "error" icon to signify "this calendar event should be shown as busy" is fail <dobey> Tm_T: and i posted a blog entry the other day about some ideas for managing "contacts" <Tm_T> I see <dobey> i suppose i need to do some similar mock-ups for a calendar ui as well <Tm_T> please do * Tm_T thinks UI's need often fresh thinking <dobey> pitti: stop spamming me with blueprint changes :) <seb128> cassidy: there? <cassidy> I am <seb128> cassidy: could you look to the current comment on https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-karmic-messaging-and-communication-selection and tell me if those are really not available and if they are on the schedule? <cassidy> sure <seb128> is anybody working actively on the msn connection manager or not? <cassidy> "UPDATE: alright google video chat support coming in a week or two in empathy." we are working on it. We have branches implemeting interop but for some reason Google stops sending us video after a while. We suspect a bug on their side <cassidy> seb128: yes, we have an intern working on audio/video support <cassidy> "empathy is soon to get(mostly before 9.10) video chat support for google talk, and msn." we can't promise that for now <seb128> cassidy: my comment was rather for the 2009-06-01 comment but good to know ;-) <Tm_T> cassidy: hmm, that gtalk support, using some library or... ? <cassidy> " * Rich text messages (underline, bold, font, ...)" we have a spec for this but it's not implemented either in Gabble (or other CM) or Empathy <cassidy> " * Custom emoticons" no spec, nothing planned for now <cassidy> " * Protocol emoticons" what's that? <seb128> dunno, maybe some emoticons are specific to msn? <cassidy> " * Msn chat with invisible users" Don't know about that <Tm_T> cassidy: I believe its some kind of "mood" thing for your status <cassidy> " * Msn send and receive offline messages" idem <cassidy> " * Msn see windows live messenger buddy icons (only new versions of 2009)" don't know how much it's different from the other one <cassidy> " * Msn file transfers" istaz_ is the one to ask for this one :) <seb128> istaz_: ^ hey ;-) <cassidy> seb128: I don't work on butterfly (the MSN CM). It would be good to open a bug (if there is no one yet) for each of these missing features <seb128> cassidy: ok thanks, that doesn't change the plan for karmic but I though feature parity was near which might not be the case, in any case we will give it some testing <seb128> we can still rollback if required <cassidy> seb128: also note that for google video (interop with the web client), we need H264 (thanks Google...) which can't be shipped by default <istaz_> cassidy: no progress since last time, I put the project on hold for now <cassidy> empathy - empathy video can use Theora though <seb128> cassidy: what is the bug tracker for the msn cm, is there a page about the current infrastructure, ie list of cms, bugtrackers used, etc? <cassidy> all the CMS are on bugs.fd.o <seb128> ok good <cassidy> only Empathy is on GNOME's bugzilla <seb128> cassidy: does switching wins us anything? ;-) <cassidy> a UI that doesn't suck? ;) <cassidy> tbh, Pidgin is definitely a better MSN client for now <dobey> does empathy have sound event support for "message received" yet? <cassidy> but Empathy is a better XMPP and XMPP-linklocal client <seb128> the UI doesn't seem much different to me <cassidy> much better <cassidy> we are also doing some telepathy integration work in GNOME <cassidy> as vino/vinagre tube integration <seb128> client to client video using theora should be working though right? <cassidy> which should be merged for 2.28 hopefully <cassidy> seb128: yes <cassidy> and audio is working with the gtalk windows desktop client <seb128> ok, that's something ;-) <cassidy> and the web one <seb128> do you go to GUADEC this year? <cassidy> sure! <seb128> ok, good <cassidy> as almost all Collabora :) <seb128> I expect we will have some talks there then <cassidy> of course <seb128> we will probably get some user feedback before GUADEC already <cassidy> the MSN guys would be there too <seb128> I will not annoy you longer for now then ;-) <seb128> thanks for replying to my questions <cassidy> np <cassidy> I'll give a talk about Collaboration in GNOME using Telepathy <seb128> cool <cassidy> seb128: oh, and we just finished to merge geolocation support today! <cassidy> which is a feature than only us implement afaik <seb128> what does it do exactly? <seb128> I've read about "yet another libraries to add to the depends" but that's about it ;-) <cassidy> seb128: http://blog.pierlux.com/2009/01/22/empathy-where-are-you/en/ <seb128> ok <seb128> brb <lool> Hey folks <lool> I'm looking for someone to pick up https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/jaunty/+source/loudmouth/+bug/382569 which upstream pinged me about but which I can't handle soonish <ubottu> Ubuntu bug 382569 in loudmouth "md5 digest uri not set correctly when using srv " [Undecided,Fix released] <lool> My understanding is that it prevents loudmouth based jabber clients from connecting to ejabberd servers; I have no idea how grave that is <lool> This includes telepathy-gabble though, so it looks like it might be important to fix it #ubuntu-desktop 2009-06-02 <pitti> Good morning <pitti> didrocks: hey! happy to be back home? :-) <pitti> dobey: no :) <Zdra> dobey: yes empathy have sound support <Zdra> dobey: but ubuntu's sound theme is missing almost everything <Zdra> afaik on jaunty the only sound we have is incoming-call <Zdra> which is the most important IMO <seb128> I'm not a big fan of sound effects <Zdra> me neither <Zdra> seb128: about MSN file transfer, I don't think we can say pidgin support that <Zdra> seb128: I never had more than 4b/s <seb128> no, it's very very slow <Zdra> which is totally useless <seb128> some of the other points are good ones <seb128> ie sending message to people not there <seb128> or custom emoticons <Zdra> yep <Zdra> seb128: IMO it's much much much more important to have xmpp audio/video <seb128> is that working? <Zdra> seb128: also, it depends if ubuntu want to promote good support for open protocols (jabber) or closed (msn) <Laney> I bet there's a lot of people who use even the broken msn file xfer we have in Pidgin <Zdra> seb128: yes it is working <seb128> cassidy said it was not working fine right now and that it will not working out of the box anyway because it requires codecs which can't be installed by default <Zdra> seb128: did he said that? we support speex and theora <Zdra> they are installed by default on ubuntu <Zdra> it should even work from live CD <Zdra> afaik <Zdra> seb128: in fact we can use any codec supported by gstreamenr <seb128> "<cassidy> seb128: also note that for google video (interop with the web client), we need H264 (thanks Google...) which can't be shipped by default" <Zdra> seb128: ah, that's for google's client <Zdra> seb128: I meant for empathy<>empazthy <seb128> ah right, that works using theora <Zdra> seb128: yep, google's web plugin for video is a problem, there is not much we can do <Zdra> seb128: basically it's up to canonical to go to google's office and shout people until they add support for open codecs <Zdra> seb128: but installing ubuntu-restricted-extra should be enough to get it working now <seb128> right <seb128> brb <seb128> Zdra: anyway having ubuntu to ubuntu video working will already be nice <seb128> and we want to promote free protocols but not in detriment of what users need <seb128> ie if other protocols are totally rubish compared to pidgin we will probably roll back before karmic <Zdra> the problem with other protocols is nobody actually work on them <seb128> but we will get user feedback anyway before deciding so we know where we stand and what is still required if we are not ready to switch <Zdra> we have some work done on MSN level, but not that much afaik <Zdra> non free protocols have lots of user, but not a single developer, that's the problem <seb128> well apparently pidgin has people working on it <seb128> you don't get the feature for free by using libpidgin ? <Zdra> seb128: for protocols, yes <Zdra> libpurple <seb128> so things like sending message to people who are not there or custom emoticons should be working? <Zdra> for MSN there is a dilemma because we have a dedicated CM for it <seb128> dedicated cm but nobody working on it you said? <Zdra> istaz_: is working on it sometimes <Zdra> seb128: and someone is working on audio/video support <seb128> ok, we might want to test msn using the cm and using libpurple <seb128> to see which one is working better <Zdra> seb128: we made the choice in empathy to not show pidgin based msn if butterfly (the dedicated CM) is installed. But maybe we should reevaluate that <seb128> I will test both and let you know how they are working there <istaz_> Zdra: I think the guys of the papyon project have started to work on it <chrisccoulson> hi pitti - i got some positive feedback on my fix for bug 361205, although the package is only in my PPA at the moment. do you want me to prepare a debdiff for jaunty-proposed later today? (I see a lot of other stuff got uploaded this morning) <ubottu> Launchpad bug 361205 in tracker "Tracker uses notifications with actions when the index is corrupt" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/361205 <pitti> chrisccoulson: proposed> I saw that, good job! Please prepare an upload and attach it, then I'll sponsor it <chrisccoulson> thanks:) <diverse_izzue> hi all. are there plans to replace scim by ibus for karmic or karmic+1? <asac> ArneGoetje: ^^ * asac lunch time <pitti> seb128: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-karmic-gnome-3 whiteboard still has the discussion notes, and it seems they have much more information than the final wiki spec <pitti> seb128: is that intended? can the whiteboard be flushed now? <SiDi> Hey pitti . You're the person who coded the new notifications in gnome-power-manager for notify-osd, right ? <pitti> SiDi: no, that was davidbarth <SiDi> aw <pitti> which reminds me that they are broken in Karmic <SiDi> I saw your name in the changelogs :) <SiDi> Yeh, well, i wrote a quick spec for notify-osd integration in Xubuntu, and there is a note about the power manager <SiDi> What id like to get is : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications/Karmic/NotifyOsd?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=notify-osd-powerinfo-example.png <SiDi> I think i can do it for xfce4-power-manager but we're likely to stay on gnome-power-manager. But i really cant write code on this one with so many changes being done to it <pitti> SiDi: yes, I sponsored the changes <SiDi> Do you think it's possible to remove half the text and replace the bulb icon with a battery icon indicating the percentage left, in order to make the notification bubble easier to read ? <pitti> SiDi: please discuss this with MacSlow or davidbarth <SiDi> pitti, okey, willdo, thanks <SiDi> shall i mail ubuntu-desktop, maybe ? <pitti> SiDi: ayatana is probably better for design questions <SiDi> Alright <davidbarth> SiDi: hi, how can i help? <SiDi> Hello davidbarth <SiDi> Well, it's about notifications for battery state <SiDi> I think they're a bit overloaded and could be optimised a little <artir> meeting is in 6 minutes? <SiDi> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications/Karmic/NotifyOsd?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=notify-osd-power-current.png & https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications/Karmic/NotifyOsd?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=notify-osd-powerinfo-example.png <davidbarth> SiDi: ok, i see (slowly reading the log) <SiDi> shall give you an idea of what i want <davidbarth> SiDi: the mockup is interesting; the only thing we'd like to avoid is to display useless notifications; ie the user should only see them when it makes sense <SiDi> davidbarth, thats for the XF86Power triggered notifications <SiDi> It's just a little cleanup to make it easier to read, actually <davidbarth> SiDi: ok, makes sense then, as they are the direct result of a user action <SiDi> Sec, gonna upload a video with what i have in mind ;) <davidbarth> SiDi: that's a good suggestion; would you like to comment on that in the Ayatana list <SiDi> Sure <davidbarth> SiDi: see https://launchpad.net/~ayatana <SiDi> Im on it already <SiDi> Im Steve Dodier (got a pending mail to send about user activity monitoring too ^^) <davidbarth> SiDi: cool, be sure to get mpt's attention too, as he lead most of the design/usability aspects of these changes <SiDi> Alright <SiDi> as for the icons, i spoke with kwwii and mat_t and they seem ok to get them included, already <seb128> re <seb128> pitti: not sure how the whiteboard should be used, should it have the session notes or discussions? <pitti> seb128: it should ideally only have status metadata <pitti> seb128: I left the discussion there for now <seb128> pitti: I didn't feel that having a summary of the softwares, what they are doing etc was having a sense in the spec <pitti> but if there's anythign important which is not covered by the wiki page,it should move into "BoF discussion" section of the wiki page IMHO <pitti> unreleavant stuff can be removed, of course <pitti> seb128: agreed <seb128> I've reviewed the notes and didn't add notes on purpose there is nothing really interesting there <seb128> I will clean the whiteboard and checking it's all correct <seb128> -ing <pitti> seb128: cool, thanks <seb128> you're welcome <seb128> session restart brb <seb128> ok works correctly * seb128 does upgrade some components to karmic <seb128> pitti: you mean the file in /etc? /usr/share is not under the admin's control <seb128> they are the same file <pitti> ah, that mess, I remember <pitti> seb128: can we fix the code to read /etc, clean up an unchanged /etc/ file in the postinst, and drop the symlink in /usr ? <pitti> s/postinst/preinst/ of course <seb128> pitti: and for wine, file-roller taking over the mimetype and hijacking the action was one of the things the wine guys complained about in jaunty <pitti> I guess so <pitti> executables should be handled by binfmt-misc <seb128> right now zip-exe are opened in file-roller <seb128> I though that was normal mimetype association <seb128> but I don't know the details, will pick an easier example <seb128> we can probably do upgrade magic and cleaning for the defaults.list yes <pitti> thanks <seb128> np, thank you for the quick review! <seb128> I'm still not clear about design and implementation difference too <seb128> but I guess I will never understand those <pitti> don't worry too much about those <pitti> it's "what" vs. "how" <pitti> but sometimes that's too small a difference <seb128> how, ie "start gedit, code, profit"? ;-) <pitti> Design: <pitti> * Move keyboard handling from hal to udev <pitti> Implementation: <pitti> * Build hal with --disable-keymaps <pitti> * create a migration script to convert hal fdi files to udev rules <pitti> * ship new rules in udev-extras <asac> killall <pitti> * install udev-extras by default as part of ubuntu-standard <pitti> seb128: that would be an example, as I understand and use it <seb128> I would tend to write the design as a spec summary <pitti> asac: ... humans? <seb128> and use the implementation list for design <seb128> but gotcha, thanks ;-) <asac> ;) <pitti> * asac is now known as Bender <asac> pitti: killall sshd ;) <asac> is meeting now or in 1h ? <pitti> asac: in one week and 1 h <seb128> asac: you should start reading emails ;-) <asac> err. i read all emails afaik <asac> guess it was send before allhands? <artir> in the fridge it says that the meeting is today right now <pitti> asac: check for a procmail rule * ^From: Rick Spencer\n/dev/null <asac> lol <pitti> asac: was sent yesterday or so <asac> no. i am really sure rick goes in my inbox <seb128> asac: subject is " team meeting and specs" <asac> yeah ... did he send with @canonical.com? <seb128> yes <seb128> asac: it has been sent to your canonical email <seb128> and coming from rick's canonical email <asac> ok thanks. will check on that <seb128> asac: I can bounce you the mail if you want <asac> seb128: yeah please do. i see it in my procmail log as being pushed into inbox ... but its not there :) <asac> maybe i hit delete when processing this morning <seb128> asac: sent to your ubuntu email <seb128> ups canonical rather <asac> thanks. got it <asac> off getting some food stocks ... bbl <pitti> 'nuff sponsoring for today, I'm off for the evening <pitti> I might come back later, but need to run out for some errands * pitti waves <seb128> pitti: see you later! <asac> seb128: which ppa was the bluetooth-gnome thing in? u remember? <asac> pitti: when you get back, could you approve https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-karmic-firefox-3.5 for karmic? <asac> (not that it matters as i am about to start drafting) <SiDi> * rdepends migration (to xulrunner 1.9.1 + webkit) <SiDi> webkit ? <asac> SiDi: yes. the more we can move to webkit the less we have a need to do backporting for xulrunner <SiDi> well, that means webkit will be present in ubuntu's default image ? <slomo> seb128: you probably want to sync libgdata from debian/unstable for totem 2.27 (once it's from NEW) <dobey> totem uses google apps? <crevette> for youtube video plugin <seb128> crevette: where did you put your bluetooth updates? in a ppa? which one? <crevette> hey seb128 <seb128> slomo: ok thanks, has libgdata been approved for GNOME now? <crevette> seb128: nome-bluetooth? <seb128> yes <slomo> seb128: no idea, it's an optional dependency of youtube anyway <seb128> ok <crevette> seb128: the bug is https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-bluetooth/+bug/372395 <ubottu> Ubuntu bug 372395 in gnome-bluetooth "[karmic] Please sponsor gnome-bluetooth 2.27.5" [Wishlist,New] <crevette> and there is a build in my ppa yes <slomo> seb128: i mean, an optional dependency for totem, required to build the youtube plugin ;) so you really want this in ubuntu... sjoerd already complained to me that i uploaded totem 2.27 without the youtube plugin ;) <seb128> right <seb128> yet another depends <seb128> *shrug*, GNOME starts being really bloated <slomo> well, before it used python-gdata <slomo> you can demote that to universe maybe ;) <Tm_T> seb128: starts being? <slomo> but all those mini libraries are really annoying <seb128> Tm_T: go troll somewhere else will you? <seb128> Tm_T: that's not the right channel for that <Tm_T> hmh, and again I did wrong wording <Tm_T> what I mean is, it's hard to draw a line when something is bloat, so I was asking what is the thing you find now going over the line <seb128> there is no obvious over the line <seb128> but every second day they add a new library nowadays <seb128> where some other people are trying to reduce the number of libs <crevette> seb128: by the way for gnome-bluetooth I tested the workflow with pulseaudio 0.9.15 and this is rallt working fine for me, I was able to connect and play music on my bluetooth audio gateway in few click <seb128> so the issue is not the number but the direction <seb128> asac: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-bluetooth/+bug/372395 <- that? <ubottu> Ubuntu bug 372395 in gnome-bluetooth "[karmic] Please sponsor gnome-bluetooth 2.27.5" [Wishlist,New] <Tm_T> seb128: roger roger, I often have to explain how DE:s are not bloated when compared to WM:s <slomo> seb128: into which other library would you put libgdata btw? ;) <Laney> seb128: I'm looking at it now that I got reminded <Laney> fell off the radar <Laney> crevette: sorry <seb128> slomo: it used to be in e-d-s <crevette> Laney: hey not problem, I know you all have lots of things to do <slomo> seb128: yes, good that it is outside eds now... eds brings in a too large dependency chain for your average google api using application ;) <Laney> feel free to ping me if I forget again :O <seb128> slomo: will the binary was splitted in e-d-s obviously, ie no extra depends <seb128> will -> well <seb128> just longer build to rebuild this one <seb128> but I'm not sure have 15 sources instead of e-d-s will make anything easier <slomo> seb128: well, you could use libgdata on windows but i doubt you'll be able to build eds on windows ;) but i don't think there's anything to argue about here, all those mini libraries only make things more complicated in general ;) <seb128> right <slomo> seb128: do you know what's blocking totem 2.27 in ubuntu? <seb128> uds <seb128> ie just came back this weekend and yesterday was an holiday <seb128> I will have a look tomorrow <asac> checking <slomo> ok :) <Laney> crevette: You should try to make your changelogs more verbose: where - what - why <Laney> also did you package from scratch? I'm seeing a lot of changes from 0.11.0-0ubuntu4 that aren't in the changelog that I can see <crevette> Laney: 0.11 gnome-bluettoth was a different project <crevette> it used to be only a obex server <crevette> now this feature is provide by gnome-user-sahre <Laney> crevette: you still should have mentioned all the changes imo <Laney> but it's not a blocker <Laney> crevette: Dude you need to update the copyright file <Laney> that is a blocker for me I'm afraid <crevette> ah yeah I remember I didn't know what to do <crevette> should I drop it and replace by a new one <Laney> as long as you keep the copyright of the old debian packager <Laney> unless you completely rewrote it <Laney> it just need to be accurate and up to date <Laney> following dep5 is probably a good idea <Laney> ping me when it's done and I'll have another look <crevette> dep5 ? <Laney> http://dep.debian.net/deps/dep5/ <crevette> Laney: the copyright references gnome-bluetooth tools & gnome-bluetooth library, but there is no tools (I don't know what it meant) and I'm not sure gnome-bluetooth provide a library. should I meantion it applied to previous version until 0.11 <Laney> crevette: delete it and start again if that's easier <crevette> nothing remains from gnome-bluetooth, but as I took bluez-gnome as reference I should perhaps reference this <Laney> it pretty much just needs to list all files, their license and copyright holders <Laney> reference any packagers who worked on this stuff before you <Laney> in the copyright for debian/* <seb128> slomo: working on gtk 2.17 now? <seb128> slomo: some reason is http://git.gnome.org/cgit/gtk+/commit/?id=663bf3db0efde02f96e34bc08846356be3240f7f, see bug http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=578765 <ubottu> Gnome bug 578765 in docs "no rule to make manpages" [Normal,Unconfirmed] <crevette> Laney: thanks for the review, sorry to waste your time :/ <Laney> it's not a waste, this is what the process is for <crevette> I could have been more efficient <crevette> let's focus on this <slomo> seb128: no 2.16.2, but thanks :) <seb128> slomo: ok, 2.17 has the same issue <huats> seb128: hello ! <huats> How are you ? <seb128> hey huats! <huats> safe trip back ? <seb128> huats: got a cold but otherwise good, you? <huats> good too :) <seb128> yes, trip was just fine, I was home for lunch on saturday <huats> great :) <huats> I haven't found you at the karaoke :( <seb128> I was not there <seb128> how was it? <huats> I know ! <huats> that is what I meant ! <huats> it was nice <huats> I don't even had the chance to say you good bye :( <seb128> how do you know, I could have been there but in the middle of all those people not easy to find for example! <huats> haven't you seen some pics/videos ? <seb128> no, I didn't do too much computer during the weekend <huats> hehe <seb128> and I've been busy catching up on email, etc today <huats> I can imagine :) <seb128> so I didn't look for photos online <seb128> we will see each other at next uds probably so that's ok ;-) <huats> I have made a video just for you, of robert singing ;) <seb128> heh ;-) <huats> (since I knew you weren't there I wanted to you can see your padawan :P) <seb128> lol <huats> I haven't post it yet <huats> I'll let you know once I have <seb128> I had diner with people having ubuntuflu and not wanting to go for party, that was perhaps a mistake since I got a cold now <seb128> ok, cool <huats> hÃ©hÃ© <huats> no big deal :) <seb128> btw did you start working on some update? <seb128> I was not sure and did some so sorry if I hijacked yours or something <huats> oh ok <huats> I have started a bit on evince <huats> but not a lot <huats> did you ? <seb128> ok, I did this one <huats> ok <seb128> I looked for opened bugs first but there was none <seb128> we will use bugs for todolists soon I expect <Laney> is there a list? <huats> so just get me another one ? <huats> seb128: ok great <seb128> huats: bug-buddy <huats> ok <seb128> you can merge on debian and update to 2.27 <huats> ok <huats> I'll do that <seb128> Laney: no right now and I think we are mostly updatetoday right now <seb128> huats: cool <Laney> k <seb128> Laney: there is quite some merges and sponsoring to do though <Laney> yeah i looked at the queue <Laney> i'll take some when i can <crevette> Laney: about the changelog do you want I strip all uptream changes ? <Laney> no I like having those there <Laney> I think you should explain *your* changes better <crevette> okay <Laney> I used interdiff -z -p1 old_version_of_gnome_bluetooth.diff.gz your_version.diff.gz to get the diff to review btw <Laney> so that's what I'll look at <Laney> you should make everything in there as easy to understand as possible ;) <huats> seb128: actually didrocks already did the merge I think :) <Laney> sponsors queue! <Laney> its pretty epic right now <crevette> :) <SiDi> hey YokoZar <YokoZar> hey SiDi <SiDi> They didnt record your plenary talk but for sure someone recorded you at karaoke :] <SiDi> I have the feeling i went back home too early :( <YokoZar> SiDi: I heard the plenary talks are on a hard disk on a plane at the moment <YokoZar> SiDi: the day that Jorge forgot to hit the record button was either Wednesday or Thursday I think <SiDi> ahah :D nice <SiDi> btw kudos on daring singing alone @ karaoke :D <YokoZar> I did it 3 times ;) <SiDi> I didnt sing at all :P <SiDi> That'll be for the next UDS * mgunes is about to take the liberty to add a "hundredpapercuts" task for bug #382626 <ubottu> Launchpad bug 382626 in nautilus "Nautilus location bar toggle icon implies unrelated function" [Low,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/382626 <seb128> mgunes: you can probably do that or ping the dxteam about it <seb128> mgunes: btw short bug descriptions are usually appreciated, verbose one might seem nice but are extra work to read and understand for no real win <seb128> ie you could describe this bug in one line rather than one screen <mgunes> seb128, I've done the latter earlier in the day, but there's been no response; the reason I'm going ahead with it this time is that everyone was in agreement at the session. <seb128> I would let those guys bother about those bugs, there is enough bugs to work on already <seb128> lool: do you still need this gnome-keyring arm workaround? (ie building with -O0 to avoid a lock issue) <seb128> that seems to be the only ubuntu diff we still have in karmic <mgunes> seb128, point taken, and I normally try to be concise, but I do think the verbosity is justified here. <seb128> well then do a short description and then an user story if you think it adds a value <seb128> but that could be only me <seb128> I get so many bugs that I tend to skip those have over 6 lines of text <seb128> have -> having <seb128> ie "the notepad icon doesn't represent the action in a clear way" is enough <seb128> I don't think upstream picked this one because they think it's good anyway <seb128> there is probably no good icon for this action, the bug is not really useful without a suggestion of what we should be using instead <mgunes> seb128, I was fully aware that this was known, and would not take any real triage effort, hence the verbosity. <seb128> alright <dobey> yeah, the gtk+ edit icon is pretty pointless <dobey> and "edit" is a bit too abstract to really have any useful metaphor <seb128> I was just saying that you don't need to bother writing a good user story <seb128> usually it makes the submitter spend quite some time on the bug and not benefit the triagers <seb128> but you decide how you spent your efforts ;-) <dobey> i really don't see why we have a button to toggle between editable ui and list of buttons anyway <dobey> it should just always be editable <mgunes> seb128, I don't know if you actually read past the first two sentences, but I would argue that it's somewhat beyond "user story" and closer to "technical substantiation by citation" :) <seb128> because a text entry is confusing to users <dobey> toggling between buttons and a text entry is horrible <seb128> ie they don't know what to enter <seb128> so they want buttons <dobey> i didn't say it should be a GtkEntry always :) <seb128> and powerusers want somewhere they can type the path directly <dobey> well, seth wanted buttons <dobey> because osx had buttons <dobey> and then hackers wanted an entry so they could type stuff <dobey> and now we have the crappy toggle thing <mgunes> it looks to me like a typical case of bypassing a real design decision by providing an "option to switch between things" <seb128> mgunes: no I didn't, see my comment about over 6 lines of description ;-) <mgunes> seb128, I knew that ;) <dobey> mgunes: yes, there was no real design behind it <seb128> in any case the design team is welcome to suggest a better icon or way <seb128> knowing that we want something easy to use for standard users and a way to enter a path directly <mgunes> seb128: I kind of did, but it took, like, two paragraphs :) <dobey> i'm all for having a better gtk-edit icon (because it's used elsewhere as well), and a better way to use the path in the file chooser <dobey> "There's no such thing as a standard user, and if there were, it wouldn't be you." <dobey> :) <seb128> mgunes: right, I read the full bug description now <crevette> Laney: ah, In the meantime, debian had a gnome-bluetooth package so I think we can now just sync it from there <mgunes> seb128, thanks :) See, a toggle button looks essentially out of place, which is where the problem only begins. <seb128> mgunes: usually I tend to describe the bug in the description and then add a comment to suggest changes but everyone has its own workflow I guess ;-) <Laney> crevette: wow thats recent <mgunes> seb128, right, probably a better way. <crevette> yeah <Laney> crevette: you could help maintain it in that team :) <seb128> mgunes: the issue is that making clear icons for those actions is not trivial <Laney> i'm sure some of your packaging could be of use to them <crevette> sure, now I reviewed all patches <crevette> Laney: we have an additional patch for notification that I jus ported <Laney> cool <crevette> and too bad, I find the package after writing a more verbose changelog :/ <crevette> Laney: is it acceptable to sync the package and then divert it by adding our patch? <mgunes> seb128, I know, but the ambiguity of the icon is not the only problem. Even with a better icon, the "pressed vs. non-pressed" state of a lonely toggle button is not a good way to convey mode information and lead people to switch modes in this case. <Laney> crevette: that's called a merge <seb128> mgunes: right <mgunes> hence the point the HIG makes about it. <crevette> hmm time to sleep now <crevette> I still have a bug to submit to debian <crevette> good night and thanks so much for help #ubuntu-desktop 2009-06-03 <Maple> hello <pitti> Good morning <pitti> robert_ancell: hey, how are you? <robert_ancell> pitti: doing good, yourself? are you over the ubuflu? <pitti> asac: blueprints> just set them to pending approval, I'll get mail for it <pitti> robert_ancell: I just started getting ubuflu on Monday <pitti> I'm in the middle of it *cough* *sniff* <robert_ancell> hope you get better soon! <pitti> thanks; not the end of the world <lool> Hi all <lool> seb128: arm gnome-keyring workaround: well it will probably break if you remove it, but then we had to chase it anyway so feel free to remove it and we shall research this again this cycle; thanks <seb128> hello there <seb128> lool: ok thanks <seb128> robert_ancell: there? <robert_ancell> seb128: hey <robert_ancell> seb128: building totem for the millionth time... <seb128> robert_ancell: hello! had a good trip back to your part of the world? <robert_ancell> seb128: long and tedious as normal :) <seb128> hehe <robert_ancell> I hear you got the ubuflu. I seem to have missed that one <seb128> it's not really the flu, or at least not the chilian one with fever and everything <seb128> just running nose, etc ... standard cold <robert_ancell> yes, the meeting got steadily noisier with coughing as UDS went on <robert_ancell> meetings <crevette> hello <seb128> blame ie on the climate control being set on too cold <chrisccoulson> hey seb128 - did you have a good couple of weeks? <seb128> hey chrisccoulson, excellent out of the uds-cold, thanks <seb128> thanks for the gnome-applets update ;-) <chrisccoulson> you're welcome. apart from that, i didn't really do that much while you were at UDS ;) <seb128> there is no hurry to do anything right now <chrisccoulson> cool. i was just about to ask if you had lots of work for me to do ;) <seb128> you are looking for work? <seb128> robert_ancell: what issues do you have to get totem to build? <chrisccoulson> i could probably do a bit if there is some to do. the only thing i'm working on at the moment really is http://live.gnome.org/LowDiskSpaceWarning <robert_ancell> seb128: I'm still confused by the totem.postinst (I've just added || true to get around this currently) and when I try and install the new packages through dpkg it always seems to conflict <seb128> robert_ancell: is your current code online somewhere? <seb128> ie in bzr? <seb128> btw some note, just do your changes directly to the ubuntu-desktop bzr <seb128> doing the change somewhere else is good when you don't have write access to this one <robert_ancell> bzr+ssh://bazaar.launchpad.net/%7Erobert-ancell/totem/ubuntu/ <seb128> hey rodrigo_ <rodrigo_> hi seb128! <robert_ancell> seb128: yup, will do in the future <seb128> rodrigo_: how are you? had a nice trip back after uds? <seb128> robert_ancell: "rodrigo_@opensuse" ... you might want to change that ;-) <rodrigo_> seb128: now almost recovered from UDS, what about you? <seb128> rodrigo_: I got a cold but otherwise I'm good thanks <rodrigo_> seb128: yeah, I guess so :) <rodrigo_> seb128: again?? * rodrigo_ still with no flu <seb128> yeah ... that's what you get when sharing room with somebody having the chilian flu at uds <seb128> btw has somebody seen pedro recently? <rodrigo_> seb128: no, haven't, ho got back home ok, right? <seb128> I don't know that's why I'm asking <rodrigo_> s/ho/he <seb128> I've no seen him since UDS <robert_ancell> seb128: am I missing something here, I try installing the new packages with dpkg but it gets into dependency loops (http://paste.ubuntu.com/187208/) - can dpkg do this or do I need them in an APT repository to handle an upgrade like this? <rodrigo_> hmm <robert_ancell> seb128: well he got to the airport, we shared a cab there <seb128> ok <seb128> robert_ancell: the error suggest that you built from somewhere where control was outdated <seb128> robert_ancell: "totem-plugins depends on totem-gstreamer (= 2.26.2-0ubuntu1) | totem-xine (= 2.26.2-0ubuntu1)" <robert_ancell> seb128: he was feeling sick though so he may not be working <seb128> right, I was just wondering if he arrived safely <robert_ancell> seb128: I did that at first, then rebuilt control and it still seems to be doing that <seb128> he was joking about not being allow to leave the airport if he had fever <seb128> because of the flu paranoia etc <seb128> so I'm just checking if that was a joke ;-) <seb128> robert_ancell: dpkg -I totem-plugins_2.27.1-1ubuntu1_i386.deb | grep Depends <mvo> I take the gnome-doc-utils sponsoring (if noone is on it already) <seb128> mvo: thanks <robert_ancell> seb128: looks ok i think? http://paste.ubuntu.com/187210/ <pitti> seb128, robert_ancell: bug 380850 makes me unsure whether to sponsor this <ubottu> Launchpad bug 380850 in brasero "Update to 2.27.2" [Wishlist,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/380850 <seb128> robert_ancell: indeed, I'm wondering from where you get this " totem-plugins depends on totem-gstreamer (= 2.26.2-0ubuntu1) | totem-xine (= 2.26.2-0ubuntu1)" <seb128> pitti: what about it? the libraries? <pitti> seb128: yes <pitti> haven't looked at it yet, though <seb128> pitti: I told robert_ancell during uds to do the update, we can split later when required <seb128> it's just a Replaces to add <seb128> and we will not need to keep it next cycle if that's done before karmic <seb128> I'm not sure if those libs make sense yet and if something will use those <seb128> ie let's get the new version we can decide on that later <pitti> okay <seb128> robert_ancell: btw you can "sudo dpkg -i totem*2.27*.deb" <seb128> robert_ancell: dpkg doesn't handle things as smartly than apt, sometime you need to run that twice to get things installed <seb128> especially if there is some conflicts, etc <seb128> robert_ancell: I'm build totem from your bzr right now, will let you know in one minute of it works there <robert_ancell> seb128: ok, thanks <seb128> hey sabdfl <robert_ancell> seb128: yes, running dpkg twice seems to have done it. Stupid dpkg! :P <seb128> mvo: do we need to unregister alternatives in preinst if the previous version had a prerm doing that? <seb128> mvo: ie totem is concerned there <seb128> totem 2.26 had that preinst <seb128> "if [ "$1" = "remove" ] || [ "$1" = "deconfigure" ] ; then <seb128> update-alternatives --quiet --remove gnome-video-thumbnailer \ <seb128> /usr/bin/totem-${FLAVOUR}-video-thumbnailer
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