#ubuntu-learning 2009-09-01 <doctormo> BiosElement: Morning #ubuntu-learning 2009-09-02 <doctormo> BiosElement, pleia2, paultag: any of you guys good with Virtualisation and VMs? I've got myself into a bit of a pickle and need to write tomorrow's class, but can't think of what to do. <paultag> doctormo: I've done some work with them, but bodhi is kick ass with that stuff <BiosElement> doctormo, The most I've done is run a few OS's for browser testing. <pleia2> doctormo: yes, but I'm dying of the flu at the moment :( <paultag> doctormo: Start off with the basics -- chroot, then get into how a chroot is insecure, how implementing a virtual machine can protect the host a great deal <paultag> doctormo: KVM, VBox etc <pleia2> virtualbox is a nice, quick way to give people a peek though <doctormo> pleia2: I hope your ok <paultag> pleia2: yeah, not the swine flu, I hope * doctormo sends pleia2 hugs and water and blankets <pleia2> doctormo: dr put me on some medicine, so hopefully I'll be in much better shape later this week :) <doctormo> paultag: See I never even thought about chroot <pleia2> paultag: nah, luckily not! <paultag> pleia2: :) * doctormo perscribes more hugs <paultag> doctormo: its a fun way of demonstrating the most basic vm :) <doctormo> paultag: So the first thing is comming up with a good explaination, then perhaps doing the chroot, then perhaps explaining hardware enabled VMs and then moving onto virtualbox and KVM <paultag> I think that is a solid approach doctormo <doctormo> Anything else I should be doing? <pleia2> kvm requires the hardware thingy <pleia2> xen does not (but can use it) <paultag> I think that should cover it for the most part doctormo <paultag> Oh yeah! <paultag> Xen hyporvisor, but that is like KVM <doctormo> My explainination of HwVM is basically that newer processers after the P4 have inbuilt instructions that allow for memory paging, and this allows VMs to be created which have their own seperated memory section that doesn't run through the host os. <pleia2> ubuntu doesn't have a xen kernel these days, though <paultag> doctormo: Yup, sounds great <pleia2> well, *some* newer processors after P4 :) <doctormo> paultag: Could you point me towards a good chroot guide? I don't do it everyday <paultag> sure doctormo <doctormo> You guys are awesome by the way <paultag> I've always loved this overview of how it works doctormo -- http://unixwiz.net/techtips/chroot-practices.html <paultag> doctormo: let me get you an 'in practice' guide <paultag> doctormo: also -- a reason chroot is less secure then a VM ( not to mention memory allocation etc being part of the same kernelspace ) http://www.bpfh.net/simes/computing/chroot-break.html <paultag> doctormo: This link is a fairly good 'in practice' link -- https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BasicChroot <pleia2> vserver is also probably worth mentioning <pleia2> it's like chroot+ * doctormo wonders if the new in place kernel upgrading may allow chroot+new_kernel to new ubuntu versions without reboots. <pleia2> still not as secure as kvm or virtualbox, but a bit better than chroot <paultag> chroot is basically just a `cd` <paultag> chroot (8) requires system paths et all, but most apps can run chroot syscall <doctormo> paultag: Yes, but think about it, you can in place shift the system to a new base line. You'd have to do the same with processes, but it's not impossible to imagen someone coming up with such a thing. <paultag> yup <doctormo> Anyway, that's the task for tomorrow, I'm going to rush out the next class and hope to teach it effectivly in the evening. <paultag> what time doctormo? <doctormo> paultag: 6:30 at the SETC <paultag> downtown? <paultag> doctormo: will it be on IRC as well? <doctormo> paultag: No, this is the physical class. At some point i'll do videos and such. <paultag> Ah <doctormo> And yes, Downtown <paultag> Too bad I can't make it <paultag> doctormo: I'd love to be there <doctormo> paultag: What are you up to? <paultag> doctormo: Still in Cleveland :) <doctormo> ah, when do you get here (I feel like I should get you here asap :-P) <paultag> doctormo: Sure, I'd love to come down. South End, right? <paultag> doctormo: Can you get there from the T? I hate driving downtown <doctormo> paultag: From cleveland, probably not. <doctormo> paultag: Unless I 'm confuised <paultag> Erm, hum? <paultag> doctormo: I was talking about when I head home next, I do live in Boston :P <doctormo> paultag: I feel like I've failed to write this course for tonight :-/ It just doesn't feel good enough <paultag> doctormo: Would you like me to read thru? <doctormo> paultag: That would be good <paultag> doctormo: I'll help in any way I can :) <doctormo> http://pastebin.com/m33710f7c <paultag> doctormo: Humm <doctormo> paultag: Indeed <paultag> doctormo: It's a concise overview. Not a whole lot about the details of each. If this was me, I would break down what the stack looks like, and where it is <doctormo> paultag: Aye, if I think I could do that in 40 mins :-P <doctormo> As I said, I'm not at all happy with this course <paultag> doctormo: It's just a bit light on the details, I think. I am pretty sure you can include some basics about why it's a "virtual" machine by looking at how it is run inside the kernel <doctormo> paultag: Which I have no clue about <paultag> Ahhhh' <paultag> doctormo: I think you do, but under another name <doctormo> paultag: Anyway, any reediting you can help me with would be awesome too. <paultag> Sure <paultag> Let me add a bit on how memory is allocated, it helps describe how it's virtual :) <doctormo> ok <paultag> doctormo: unedited, I have to jet for a second -- but concepts are present -- http://pastebin.com/m272d8245 #ubuntu-learning 2009-09-03 <doctormo> Well class went meh, I managed to get it done. But I wasn't very happy with it. <doctormo> Hey dinda, I haven't seen you for a while <dinda> doctormo: the usual busy work happening <dinda> and some vacation :) <doctormo> dinda: Congratulations <doctormo> I'm trying to save for my holiday, I hope the man asks me back to do some more manual labour so I can get a bit more of the flight paid off. <BiosElement> Figures we lost doctormo just when I wanted to nag him >.> <moks107> Hi guys! <moks107> hows things? <moks107> could i ask you a question <moks107> how do i install my camera and my mic? <doctormo> moks107: hello! <doctormo> sorry for the delay <doctormo> but this is not the place for support questions <doctormo> This is a room for the development of course material <moks107> oh is that so <moks107> thanks <doctormo> Have you tried #ubuntu or #ubuntu-signpost to get answers? <moks107> nope not yet actually <moks107> but thanks anyways <Vantrax> hey pleia2, I had a baby girl this week <pleia2> Vantrax: congrats! :D <Vantrax> yay me <doctormo> Congratulations Vantrax (even if missing) <BiosElement> doctormo, Nice save :P <doctormo> hey BiosElement hey there <doctormo_> pleia2: Like my new pxeboot? something you might be interested in for your lab/classroom? <doctormo> Oh have to head out, let me know later :-) #ubuntu-learning 2009-09-04 <doctormo> paultag: Hey again <paultag> heyya doctormo <paultag> doctormo: did you ever work out that session? <pleia2> virtualization one? <paultag> pleia2: doctormo was working on a Visualization session. I gave him a small chunk and I was wondering if he ever presented it. Or finished it <paultag> Either or, really <pleia2> http://doctormo.wordpress.com/2009/09/02/systems-administration-virtualisation/ <paultag> Ah, outstanding <doctormo> paultag: I did teach it, wasn't a very good lesson to be honest <paultag> doctormo: Euch. That's always the worst <doctormo> paultag: If I had the money, I'd personally pay you to finish it for me, but instead my plan is to finish it in the editing process. <paultag> +1 <paultag> Community driven always comes out great <doctormo> pleia2: Did you get the question from me about the PXE boot stuff being useful to you? <pleia2> doctormo: yeah, we've done some things like that with our loco team, but I can't remember exactly what we were using * pleia2 has dropped blog link to loco team <doctormo> pleia2: Would be good to confer <paultag> doctormo: I just read that post. Bravo. I did something similar for a cluster :) <pleia2> yeah, I emailed the main guy involved yesterday <paultag> doctormo: PXE is kickass <doctormo> paultag: You have know how all over the place, I'm impressed <pleia2> the lack of support on really old desktop-class machines was an issue (as you say, many hide it, but a lot don't have it at all) <doctormo> pleia2: We have a FDD PXE booter <paultag> doctormo: I've been hacking with Linux since I was 13. When you have no focus, you tend to learn a little about a lot. <pleia2> doctormo: oh, neat <doctormo> paultag: Sucks to be me, I was stuck with windows until I was 17. I was a master at Visual Basic and Reg editing though :-P <paultag> doctormo: kickass, I bet you loved perl off the bat :) <paultag> Oh wait <doctormo> Of course <paultag> shit, I read that as Regexp <paultag> doctormo: GConf, then :) <doctormo> paultag: Actually I dislike gconf and things like it <paultag> Really? <paultag> doctormo: Is it the way it stores data ( XML ), or the concept of a registry? <doctormo> paultag: I've come to realise that it's important to modualise and use the base destinction effectivly. On POSIX operating systems this is the 'file' and 'directory' memes. Thus configs should be files, data elements should be files, it just should be files. <doctormo> I'm against hiding files from users, I don't think that it's an effective stratedgy. I'm a big fan of XDG and of hitting developpers over the head until they use it. <paultag> doctormo: what say you to data that should be maintained encrypted in the conf file, such as an XMPP login, or AIM Login password? <doctormo> paultag: No passwords should ever be stored in config files, auth details, keys, usernames, passwords and such are not configuration. They should go into the authentication and authorisation sub system <paultag> Very true. I agree doctormo. <paultag> doctormo: The only reason I like gconf, is a centralized, normalized data structure with all of your configuration options present <paultag> ( bonus is it's human readable, and hackable :) ) <doctormo> Anyway, since I believe in the mathamatical proof for configuration data structurisation, I believe it's possible to convert any configuration format to any verified structural data format such as xml, and back again. <paultag> doctormo: sure, but in practice you would have a lot of special cases handling config files with different syntax <doctormo> It's not the varifyable nature, the idea of defaults (see XSD default attribute) or structurisation. It's the centralisation that betrays the modualisation of the applications that use it. <paultag> doctormo: I'd like to see the ~/.* files and folders gone. There should be a central ~/.config/ and normalized configuration structure <doctormo> paultag: You would very quickly have a situation that encouraged developers not to develop non standard syntaxes and handlers for edge cases. <doctormo> I agree with ~/.config ~/.cache etc, it's the XDG standard after all. <paultag> I am not up to par on XDG. Let me look it up, hold one. <paultag> on* <doctormo> paultag: But I believe that the verification and base line formatting of these configurations should be held and managed by the deb package. Not by gconf. <paultag> OK. <paultag> This looks sane, and thought out <paultag> I'll have to think it over for a bit doctormo <paultag> doctormo: not sure where I stand <pleia2> doctormo: ah ok, we do the boot floppy thing for PXE-less machines too <doctormo> pleia2: See, nothing too different :-D * pleia2 nods <doctormo> pleia2: Is your guy in the know online? <pleia2> doctormo: jedijf in #ubuntu-us-pa is one of them, he's at work though so his availability is limited <doctormo> paultag: My other problem with GConf is that you can't really use it on servers or gtk-less deployments, making it quite crap for the kind of infrastructural projects that should be replacing most kinds of data organisation in the coming years. <paultag> doctormo: Yeah. I <paultag> doctormo: Yeah. I'll have to think about what I find logical. Never spent much time on it, I'd rather make an intelligent comment later, rather then a dumb one now <doctormo> paultag: Of course, I'm just blabbing because I'm tired <pleia2> yeah, we bumped into that at work where we deployed a dozen or so ubuntu machines, it was annoying <paultag> doctormo: no no, I appreciate it <pleia2> had to do sneaky work-arounds for things to avoid using gconf so we could deploy flat txt configs <doctormo> pleia2: It's bloody annoying because it should be a simple mattter of fashioning a set of base libraries for accessing standard xml forms and validating them. <doctormo> Plus it's the reason my wallchanger project didn't work for the entire intrepid release, it proper way to update the gnome wallpaper is via gconf, but that requires access to XAuthentication and that got blocked from the crontab after intrepid. <doctormo> So now I have to use a symbolic link and ask the user to select the right background manually. <paultag> Ah, I did the same doctormo, but mine was local userspace <paultag> doctormo: and it was in the autostart for after you start your session <paultag> doctormo: I had a set of 12 photos I took of outside -- all throughout the day. Each hour, it would swap to the one for the current hour <paultag> Alright. I'm off -- Class for the day. See ya'll in a few hours <doctormo> paultag: Have a good day <paultag> Ah. I love college. <paultag> Day's over. Kickass. <pjarnahom> how to configure cannon gp210 pcl 5e printer in ubuntu ultimate <paultag> pjarnahom: Don't spam. <pleia2> pjarnahom: might want to try #ubuntu :) #ubuntu-learning 2009-09-07 <pleia2> doctormo_: did another commit today with the core structure of the course, I still have some fleshing out to do though, should be done soon :) <pleia2> (I would have had it totally done today, but I have excuses!) <doctormo> pleia2: Awesome news! <pleia2> I'm really excited to see BiosElement's course, I had to look back in my logs to figure out some bzr things, and how you go about development in general <pleia2> would be nice to have his courses out there so it's *really* easy for potential course writers to contribute #ubuntu-learning 2009-09-08 <doctormo> pleia2: Of course, this is the non-evil plan *mwhahah* <doctormo> The problem will be trying to get the BiosElement element done quickly, organising sessions where we would work on it together has been dificult <pleia2> ah :\ <pleia2> oh! and I almost forgot, I am not sure lp is properly showing me <pleia2> https://code.launchpad.net/~lyz/ubuntu-learning-materials/lyz <pleia2> it shows you all clickable, but I'm elizabeth@r2d2 (my desktop) <pleia2> what setting do I need to fix? <pleia2> I mean, it's obviously uploading it properly, it's associated with my lp account <pleia2> just something is weird <doctormo> pleia2: You need to identify yourself propperly with launchpad <pleia2> yeah, "bzr launchpad-login lyz" isn't enough <pleia2> seems to do half the job <doctormo> yes <pleia2> so what am I missing? :) <doctormo> ~/.bazaar/authentication.conf should have things, so should ~/.bazaar/bazaar.conf <pleia2> ok, thanks <pleia2> hm, they both are populated <doctormo> http://pastebin.com/ma805088 <doctormo> My email section needs to be "exactly" what is in my GPG key Name (Other) <Email> <pleia2> ah, I didn't have an email at all in that file, just launchpad_username <doctormo> http://pastebin.com/m2d313a1e <- added my deb environs <pleia2> ah ok, I had those set in my dev VM but not on my desktop, might as well <pleia2> thank you :) <cprofitt> pleia2, <pleia2> cprofitt: hey <cprofitt> I have not gotten any emails... has the list been silent or am I not getting them? <pleia2> silent <pleia2> latest team reports shows what we're all up to: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/TeamReports/09/August <pleia2> under "Current major tasks" <cprofitt> k <cprofitt> looks like I am not pulling my weight <cprofitt> have we decided on the next meeting time? <pleia2> nope <cprofitt> k <cprofitt> can you send me an email so I do not miss it... <cprofitt> I need to get back up to speed <pleia2> sure <pleia2> I'm going to be adding some things to the Task list and sending out a general project status email sometime this week too <pleia2> so I'll make sure I nudge you about that to make sure you get it <cprofitt> thanks... <cprofitt> I have been unable to get any educators even remotely interested in assisting... <pleia2> aw :\ <cprofitt> which has been disappointing <cprofitt> http://k12opensource.ning.com/ <pleia2> maybe once they see the material that has been produced thus far <cprofitt> I thought the people there would be inclined if not enthused to help <pleia2> ah, not the case? <cprofitt> I got not even one person interested <pleia2> :( shame <cprofitt> yeah... <doctormo> hey cprofitt <cprofitt> hey doctormo <doctormo> I heard you were major busy, is everything going well? <cprofitt> I work in a K-12 and school is about to start <cprofitt> my back-end stuff came in a bit late <cprofitt> and I have been working hard to get it all setup <cprofitt> I 'gave' my employer 12 hours this weekend getting some stuff setup <doctormo> cprofitt: Makes sense, over here we've been working on reinventing teaching skills, course creation and drafting/development workflows. <cprofitt> teaching skills? <cprofitt> yeah... the workflows are very important <cprofitt> I was just telling pleia2 that I have not found a single educator that was willing to review our courses or help use design them <doctormo> cprofitt: You don't think we're all born with them eh? I'm talking mostly about my personal experiments in the classroom, since I'm not a trained teacher I've had to sort of play "try random things" until something seemed to make sense and worked. <cprofitt> which really disappointed me <cprofitt> doctormo, been there and done that... <cprofitt> live training is different than non-live as well... <cprofitt> I wrote a course for the Professional Learning Board -- and they failed to market it well <cprofitt> it was an interesting process though <cprofitt> the women who I worked with is a teacher and helped me really refine the course <doctormo> Of course, and you seem to have some of the know how to impart into the whole thing. It'd be great to get your working with BiosElement on the "How to Teach" course, just as soon as possible. <cprofitt> did bios take a look at the course I found an uploaded? <cprofitt> is that what we are talking about or something more basic? <pleia2> our workflow thus far has been: wiki > bzr > pdf <pleia2> so I think BiosElement is working on that portion <pleia2> then we'll get to the moodle stuff <cprofitt> cool... that sounds like a decent workflow... * BiosElement heard his name <cprofitt> it would be good to know Moodle as well... make one 'fake' course and see what elements are in it... <cprofitt> and learn how to use some of the tools. <BiosElement> I could probably setup a "testbed" moodle install if that'd be useful on one of my servers <pleia2> there is already a testbed moodle install :) <cprofitt> I think we already have a testbed <cprofitt> and there is a course on how to make a course in Moodle that I got from another Moodle site <cprofitt> I need to get some sleep -- all hell breaks loose in the morning with the return of the teachers <pleia2> best of luck tomorrow :) <cprofitt> they will find tons of 'issues' real and imagined and all want them resolved in 15.3 seconds or less <pleia2> naturally <cprofitt> I will be like Hawkeye in MASH with triage being overwhelmed <cprofitt> it is amazing how an institution focused on learning fails to learn basics like how to make a shortcut * pleia2 chuckles <cprofitt> I actually got called -- by the lead Mac/Apple tech... <cprofitt> he told me my server was down... because he used the VPN and could not access it. <cprofitt> his VPN gives him access to a network VLAN not 'internal' to the districts <cprofitt> it is inside the firewall, but uses a different DHCP and DNS server... <pleia2> heh <cprofitt> he knew my server was down because he used 'Connect to Server' and it failed <cprofitt> he did not use the fully qualified domain name <cprofitt> you following the issue... <cprofitt> can you understand why I shook my head is utter astonishment * cprofitt smiles <pleia2> yes :) <cprofitt> so I asked him a real simple question... <cprofitt> did you ping the server... <cprofitt> did you do a traceroute.... <cprofitt> the answer was "No." <doctormo> cprofitt: Did you think this was my problem because you couldn't be bothered to think? <doctormo> Sometimes BOFH has the right idea <cprofitt> I have decided he need remedial training on the process of troubleshooting connectivity <cprofitt> lol <pleia2> most people do <pleia2> except then you get "I pinged it!" "the fqdn?" "..no" <cprofitt> this guys is a MCP and certified Apple desktop and server support guy <cprofitt> I gently explained to him... that he was in a space that has a different DNS server... <cprofitt> got "yeah... so" <cprofitt> he then tells me proudly... I still can't connect to it <cprofitt> and I just tried pining it <cprofitt> I think you are going to have problems tomorrow - he proudly says <cprofitt> ... he then makes some quip about how Apples are reliable and stable <cprofitt> ... <cprofitt> mind you in the 11 years I have been running my file servers we have had ZERO unplanned downtime <cprofitt> so... my stuff is stable <cprofitt> I then asked him what name he pinged... <cprofitt> and what IP address the ping reported going too <cprofitt> he was all confused... <cprofitt> now,... I do not know what the GUI network tool shows on a Mac so it may not be his fault <pleia2> heh <cprofitt> but... my lord... <cprofitt> I told him to use the fully qualified domain name... and he tried... <cprofitt> "wow... I can ping it now" <cprofitt> ... <pleia2> hehe "now" <cprofitt> he asked me what it meant that he can not connect to the server but can ping it <cprofitt> I had to hold back mad laughter <pleia2> yeah <cprofitt> I asked him to connect to using the FQDN <cprofitt> then he connected... <cprofitt> he had no understanding even at this point... <cprofitt> he asked me why did that work <pleia2> dns is a concept I find a lot of folks in the mac and windows world have trouble with <cprofitt> here is the question for you guys... <cprofitt> how in heck do I train this guy? <pleia2> I am not sure why it is, I think maybe it's just poorly covered int he certs? <cprofitt> I certainly do not like Microsoft's implementation of the management frontend <pleia2> I don't know, maybe you can practice training by writing the dns course for this team * pleia2 grins <cprofitt> yeah... perhaps I should do that... <pleia2> hehe <cprofitt> I was thinking more of using a two-by-four <pleia2> lol <cprofitt> but your idea might work... <cprofitt> to be honest... I am not sure how people do not get that... <cprofitt> so writing a course could help me figure out what I need to... so I can train him <pleia2> dns in the wild is a tricky concept to grasp <pleia2> trickles down to being confusing on lans (even though it's much simpler on lans) <cprofitt> mind you that he is the same level as I am -- in the mind of my boss.... <cprofitt> I did not have to work with him until we integrated the Apple's with Active Directory <cprofitt> and I am astonished that he can tie his shoes some days * pleia2 chuckles <pleia2> darn ldap, making us all work together <cprofitt> lol <cprofitt> I started with NDS <cprofitt> then my boss made me switch to AD -- because we could not find any 'Novell guys' <pleia2> sad, but not surprising, I think it happens a lot <cprofitt> then after we have cast the AD move in stone... he hires a guy who used to work for Novell as a support engineer <pleia2> hah! <pleia2> trouble is, AD *seems* cheap to support, but most AD admins I've met scare me <pleia2> "I can't figure this out, I'll just copy the permissions of this admin user and you should be able to do what you need" * pleia2 cringes <cprofitt> Apple has some decent tools... for OD environments, but it sill lacks real enterprise features <cprofitt> yeah... the AD admins that have no background other than AD are usually pretty... frightening <pleia2> working outside of schools, I hardly ever encounter server-macs <cprofitt> the 'instructor' I had actually told me something was impossible... <cprofitt> and it took me 20 minutes of 'demonstration' (repeated three times) to make him admit he was wrong <pleia2> heh <cprofitt> Apple sucks on the enterprise level support <cprofitt> they are brutally bad <cprofitt> I used to love Apple back in the 80s <cprofitt> but having to deal with them in this job has made me swear that I never want to do business with them <cprofitt> they are worse than Dell support <cprofitt> I need to get some sleep though... <cprofitt> have babble on about the Mac guy for far too long <cprofitt> night all <doctormo> If cprofitt ends up doing DNS, take a start from my networking basics course section, that has a rough start on it <pleia2> doctormo: I think one of the current issues is not everyone reads your blog <doctormo> pleia2: Not everyone should have to, I'm not the only person running this project <pleia2> so I nudge you to update the wiki, but none of your courses have been posted to the mailing list for review, and you don't frequently post links here <pleia2> yeah, so maybe I should take up that task <pleia2> or someone :) <pleia2> just a thought, I think we're just not reaching as many people as we could be, more pushing to more areas to encounter more people will help * pleia2 has blog entry in the wings about the project <pleia2> was going to include learning update in my post yesterday, but didn't get that far <doctormo> no your right, I'm not perfect with my involvement and I just like everyone else needs prodding and refocusing. <pleia2> :) <doctormo> Although I did post one section to the mailing list for the record. <pleia2> oh, good <{HaRiTh}> hi all <pleia2> hello <{HaRiTh}> hi , how's it going ? <{HaRiTh}> i need a little help with my Wthernet card <{HaRiTh}> Ethernet* <{HaRiTh}> any response ? <pleia2> {HaRiTh}: we're a course development project, #ubuntu is probably a better place for your question <{HaRiTh}> ok <{HaRiTh}> thanks #ubuntu-learning 2009-09-09 <ibuclaw> bodhi_zazen, so what type of recruiting is there at this current time ? :) <ibuclaw> as I mentioned briefly in the meeting, I have the next fortnight or so free, so I could draft something up. <pleia2> hey ibuclaw :) <ibuclaw> hey pleia2 <pleia2> ibuclaw: have you seen doctormo's courses? <ibuclaw> I don't think I have <pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/SystemAdminTopics <pleia2> scroll down to Background Topics, the first 3 are there (say "Done") after them <pleia2> under Classroom Topics there are several more <pleia2> so that could give you some idea what we're shooting for course-wise <pleia2> we have someone else writing up our course development course, so in the meantime task-wise I've been asking people instead to review each of the "Topics" and start adding links to good documentation <pleia2> so on that same page you'll also see links to, say, "ip tables primer by Bodhi Zazen" <pleia2> we want more of such links :) so when the course writer comes along they have great resources to help them write the course there at their fingertips <pleia2> if you go to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning and scroll down to the bottom you'll see the 5 sections we work with, I gave you the link to the "How to Maintain Ubuntu" section, we need to flesh out all 5 of them <pleia2> does this help? :) <ibuclaw> yes, that does. <ibuclaw> thanks pleia2 <pleia2> thank you! <swoody> pleia2, I'd be really interested in helping out the UCLP, and I noticed that you're named as organizer for 'How to Use Ubuntu' section... <pleia2> hooray! <pleia2> yeah, I'm writing the introduction which is up in launchpad <swoody> I was curious in what ways I could help out. Are you just looking for ideas/input at this point? Are you looking for people with knowledge to teach classes? .... <pleia2> but that is *really* basic "what is ubuntu" <swoody> ah, ok <pleia2> I just spoke with ibuclaw about what we need, mind if I point you at logs? <swoody> not at all :) <pleia2> sec, let me grab <pleia2> actually, they won't be up for another 10 minutes <swoody> ah, ok. I'm a patient person if you don't want to have to retype it all :) <pleia2> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/267648/ <pleia2> here we go <pleia2> now, you can jump into course writing (both doctormo and I would be thrilled!) but if you want to wait for the how to write a course course, and just do what I describe there for now, that's fine :) <pleia2> if you do want to write a course, let us know the topic and adopt it (put your nick near it in the wiki) and we'll show you the bzr repo and so you can see existing source materials and start writing your own based on those <swoody> pleia2, Well can I take a brief look at the intro you're writing? <pleia2> so far the main target of these is for teaching ubuntu stuff in locos, but I think the material can also be used to conduct #ubuntu-classroom sessions (like for ubuntu open week) <swoody> I'd like to get a better feel for the style of writing you're looking for before I'd take on writing any courses <swoody> ah, ok then <pleia2> doctormo's courses are what I'm basing mine off of <pleia2> mine is up on https://code.launchpad.net/~lyz <pleia2> the core branch that doctormo's are in are up... um, lemme find <pleia2> https://code.launchpad.net/~doctormo/ubuntu-learning-materials <swoody> pleia2, sorry, you'll have to forgive my noobness, but I haven't worked in this manner with LP or with bzr in the past :) <swoody> so you guys may have to fill me in a bit <swoody> and in the meantime, I'll try to help by getting some resources linked to the topics for now <pleia2> swoody: no problem! I was totally a bzr noob too :) mostly still am <pleia2> doctormo gave me a crash course the other day, I shall find logs of that too <swoody> haha, well like I say, even Linus Torvalds was a noob once ;) <pleia2> this will all be in the "how to write a course" course, eventually <pleia2> :) <swoody> ah, excellent <pleia2> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/08/30/%23ubuntu-learning.html <pleia2> ok, this is where doctormo held our hands through doing bzr checkouts of the branches and making our own <pleia2> scroll down to 21:50s <swoody> pleia2, ah, many thanks :) <swoody> will be doing some reading :) <pleia2> let us know if you have questions, I don't want you to get sick of reading and wander off <pleia2> I'm happy to answer things I can <pleia2> am just pointing to logs because they're thorough :) <swoody> pleia2, ok, thanks! I'll be sure to let ya know if I think of anything <swoody> and it's np, I don't mind reading :) <pleia2> great, thanks for helping! :) <swoody> it's my pleasure :) <swoody> ok, I have to go AFK for a while, but I bookmarked everything you linked me, and I'm going to do some more reading when I get back :) <swoody> pleia2, ^ <swoody> so thanks again, and I'll talk to you later :) <pleia2> ok, later :) <pleia2> doctormo: you missed it! both ibuclaw and swoody dropped by to volunteer last night :) <pleia2> I got them up to speed <doctormo> pleia2: Awesome! <doctormo> What do they want to do? <pleia2> ibuclaw seemed to be able to do anything, I think swoody wants to help writing desktop classes <doctormo> ibuclaw sounds interesting, can they do illustration or writing? <pleia2> for now I told him he can work on adding links to resources in the 5 sections <doctormo> pleia2: Great, now that we have more people, we should set a date for an IRc classroom to teach the first production class? <pleia2> doctormo: yeah, like your sysadmin courses? <doctormo> pleia2: No I was thinking of the "how to write courses" followed by "how to commit and public courses" <pleia2> oh ok, even better :) <pleia2> any idea how those are coming along? would be nice to have them soon <doctormo> It would <doctormo> I may have to write them in the end, but I'll wait until the weekend <swoody> hello everybody :) <pleia2> g'day swoody <swoody> pleia2, :) <doctormo> Hey swoody, I hear you here to help <swoody> Hello doctormo :) <swoody> Yes, I'm interested in lending a hand :) <doctormo> swoody: That's great <swoody> hopefully I can be more help than hindrance to you guys ;) <swoody> pleia2 sent me the logs where you went over bzr, so I'm trying to get up to speed with how that works <swoody> but I figure in the meantime, I can get some resources linked to the topics for you guys <doctormo> swoody: That's the idea, but structure is also important so work on that if you can <swoody> doctormo, what exactly did you mean by working on the structure? Are you looking for ideas/suggestions on topics for each section? <doctormo> pleia2: Sent a message to the mailing list about this week's class <pleia2> \o/ <swoody> ah, would Vantrax have to add me to the LP team? <swoody> I just realized I hadn't added myself to the team or mailing list yet <pleia2> swoody: I just approved you <swoody> pleia2, ah, thank you :) #ubuntu-learning 2009-09-10 <doctormo> Hey swoody, welcome offically <swoody> ah, thank you doctormo :) <doctormo> swoody: If you want you can do your first peer review action on my new class (as posted to the mailing list) <swoody> doctormo, sure, I'd love to take a johncrosby@example.net. <swoody> only thing is, I just subscribed to the ML, too, so I don't have anything yet <swoody> I'll be right back... <swoody> ok <doctormo> swoody: You probably missed it then <doctormo> pleia2: This is why the mailing list shouldn't be subscriber moderated. <pleia2> it is? <doctormo> I can't ask for peer review from people who can't join the mailing list without cronyism <pleia2> no it's not <pleia2> the mailing list is open <swoody> yeah, I was able to join by going to the ML site, not through LP <pleia2> shows swoody successfully subscribed <pleia2> the LP list needs to be shut down <pleia2> legacy from before our lists.ubuntu.com list was created <swoody> ah, ok <doctormo> pleia2: Ah right, I agree <ww-joel-d> anyone awakeÃ <ww-joel-d> f-word... <pleia2> hello <ww-joel-d> I am currently experiencing keyboard problems, anyone care to help <ww-joel-d> hi! <pleia2> you probably want #ubuntu for that <pleia2> we're a course development project :) <ww-joel-d> OH! <ww-joel-d> well, off I go then <pleia2> good luck #ubuntu-learning 2009-09-11 <pleia2> has anyone heard from Vantrax? <bodhi_zazen> not I pleia2 <bodhi_zazen> pleia2: and cprofitt I think is less active also <pleia2> bodhi_zazen: yeah :) cprofitt has been by, he works in K-12 and classes just started, this month is crazy for him <pleia2> he'll be back when things settle down <bodhi_zazen> yea, this month (back to school) has been crazy for a number of people <bodhi_zazen> I have been helping Phoenix with her homework =) <dinda> doctormo: ping <doctormo> dinda: pong <dinda> doctormo: if you have a few minutes I wanted to run some potential changes in our (canonical) training materials licensing <doctormo> dinda: I have some mins <dinda> changes I hope will make our materials more accessible for everyone <doctormo_> dinda: My connection dropped, could you repeat anything you just said <dinda> doctormo: I just told you the secret of the universe! <dinda> doctormo: pm-ing you now <doctormo_> Thanks <doctormo_> It dropped at 12:31, don't forget to PM doctormo_ and not doctormo, since that user is not dead <doctormo_> dinda: No PM yet, using IRC yes? <dinda> doctormo_: dop, yuor nick changed, let me try again * doctormo_ kicks computer, stupid computer <doctormo_> BiosElement: While I'm here, how are things going? <BiosElement> doctormo_, Not too bad. Got some more written just last night <doctormo_> wonderful, is it commited and pushed? I'd love to take a look <BiosElement> I'll commit it in just a bit after I make sure I didn't somehow go insane last night >.> I've learned not to up anything past 3am. <doctormo_> Aye that's the truth <youcanlinux> hi <pleia2> BiosElement: do you need any help with drafting anything? <doctormo_> hey youcanlinux <pleia2> starcraft-ntbk: you can ask doctormo directly if you have questions about that networking course I linked you to :) <starcraft-ntbk> ah hello there doctormo <starcraft-ntbk> doctormo, don't think ya know me, this is starcraftman from the forums. pleia2 linked me your networking course and Im looking over it. <paultag> Hey all <paultag> doctormo: I have some news <paultag> doctormo: I'll be teaching a class on Bash Scripting next week. I'll have materials finished and the session taught within the week :) <pleia2> \o/ <pleia2> doctormo: is there a spot where we can put this in your sysadmin thing, get paultag hooked up with bzr? <BiosElement> Sorry pleia2 I totally missed your message earlier. >.> <pleia2> s'ok, I'll be around for a while <starcraft-ntbk> pleia2, done reading your lil introduction to networking, nice. <pleia2> doctormo's! <doctormo> I'm back baby! <starcraft-ntbk> pleia2, right right, you gave me link though :) <starcraft-ntbk> lo there doctormo, networking trouble? <doctormo> starcraft-ntbk: No, I had to help someone with a comcast problem, came back to find my laptop had crashed <starcraft-ntbk> doctormo, pleia2 http://paste.ubuntu.com/269359/ < My comments on networking introduction, overall good. <doctormo> paultag: OK so we should collaberate some more <doctormo> paultag: I'd like to get this project coheasive so each person isn't developing things in their own islands. <starcraft-ntbk> doctormo, ah, I see. Gotta love those ISP issues :) <doctormo> paultag: As there is some existing bash stuff written (in the command line basics) and then I assume it can lead onto your scripting course. <doctormo> starcraft-ntbk: Thanks for you comments, and thanks for going over one of the previous courses, I take it you went over the "Netowkring Basics" class. <doctormo> starcraft-ntbk: Although svg is a keeper, I can do more with it, publish online like a website or generate movies from it. <starcraft-ntbk> doctormo, no problem, had time to kill. Yup, that is the one, currently reading more up on networking, I most of stuff in there. <doctormo> starcraft-ntbk: If you feel like anything should be updated, then we should get you hooked up to the bzr tree. <starcraft-ntbk> doctormo, oh sure, I can understand that. I just don't usually get slides like that I suppose. <doctormo> starcraft-ntbk: Don't forget that these slides are raw sources, it's expected that they be compiled into pngs, pdfs or odps <starcraft-ntbk> doctormo, right. As to bzr, I'm full time uni student and already am part of bt team, IRC and UA, don't wanna get too extended. I do wiki editting on main community docs too. <starcraft-ntbk> doctormo, also, my page if your curious > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/starcraft.man <doctormo> starcraft-ntbk: Sure, but once you have the bzr tree, you can edit when and if. I want to really make this easier because I don't want people to be having trouble. <starcraft-ntbk> doctormo, ah, I see, well if ya insist. Take long to get set up? <doctormo> starcraft-ntbk: Go to command line, change directory into somewhere where you keep your projects and run `bzr pull lp:ubuntu-learning-materials` that'll get you your starting point I think <doctormo> To push I think you need to identify, but I think pulling is ok right pleia2? <pleia2> you can pull anonymously, yes * starcraft-ntbk goes to install bzr. <starcraft-ntbk> doctormo, returns error that directory is not a branch. <pleia2> starcraft-ntbk: let me get you the log from when doctormo explained it to the rest of us :) <pleia2> hang on <starcraft-ntbk> pleia2, ty. I'm not a regular dev, so consider me a noob >< <pleia2> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/08/30/%23ubuntu-learning.html <pleia2> start around 21:50 <pleia2> no worries, I am a bzr noob too :) <starcraft-ntbk> pleia2, hehe <doctormo> starcraft-ntbk: Sorry my error, I should have said `bzr checkout lp:ubuntu-learning-materials` <starcraft-ntbk> doctormo, ah ha, that worked. <starcraft-ntbk> doctormo, k, I'll look that over sometime, good of ya to make such nice presentations. <doctormo> thanks starcraft-ntbk #ubuntu-learning 2009-09-13 <doctormo_> Hey BiosElement <BiosElement> Hey doctormo_ <doctormo_> How goes commital? <BiosElement> Ahh, not too bad. Got some work done late last night but somehow during a re-install I buggered bzr so I'm going to set things up again. Actually caught me in the middle of doing so. #ubuntu-learning 2009-09-14 <doctormo> BiosElement: Hello again <doctormo> Did bzr play ball last night? <BiosElement> Hey doctormo Yeah, it's mostly playing. Lemme link ya to what I upped. Afraid it's not much but I'll try to correct that problem. >.> Next project is writing a bzr for beginners guide for teachers writing a course <BiosElement> https://code.launchpad.net/~williamchambers/ubuntu-learning-materials/williamchambers <doctormo> Certainly an excelent plan <doctormo> And gets us all practicing creating classes <BiosElement> I figured at the very least it'd be a stopgap till the rest of the lesson is finised <BiosElement> *finished <doctormo> looking at it now <BiosElement> I probably organized it wrong >.> <doctormo> BiosElement, pleia2, paultag: Your advice please, I want thinking of having a description section for each course, explaining what it's trying to do and what we expect people to learn throught the entire course. <paultag> Hay <pleia2> in one of the course documents? <paultag> great idea doctormo <paultag> doctormo: it will help focus topics <pleia2> like an objective section <BiosElement> Already thought we were going to do that eventually. >.> <doctormo> Thinking they should be written before hand <doctormo> I think I'm also going to take dina's advice and have a section in each class lesson plan at the top which should be headed "Class Objectives" and in there a short description of what the students should achieve by the end of the class. <doctormo> She called them learning ovjectives <doctormo> Perhaps that's a better name, * pleia2 nods <doctormo> BiosElement: OK, notes about your class so far. Not sure about the headers with the [# Name] format. <doctormo> But otherwise it's a great step forward, <BiosElement> Aight. I kinda liked it but I figured they were easy to change later. <doctormo> I'm thinking that perhaps a better source compilation format is required, I fear that the odts are not modual enough for the kinds of publication and style definition we might want to do. <doctormo> Thoughts on using TeX? <BiosElement> If you give me a minute I may have an idea <BiosElement> Well, more like 10min >.> <pleia2> tex makes the barrier for entry much higher <pleia2> I think odt is good <BiosElement> Pure .txt with syntax for headers, bold, etc <pleia2> we're already having a hard enough time getting people to write courses <BiosElement> Honestly, I don't like odt very much besides that it's an open format. >.> <BiosElement> But I agree it's important to keep it simple pleia2 <pleia2> out of curiousity, what is the ">.>" thing you end your lines with? <BiosElement> haha, sorry. Just a nasty habit of mine. It's supposed to be "shifty eyes". <pleia2> ah, I thought that might be it but you use it a lot so I wanted to make sure :) <BiosElement> I've got a few options that should all be very simple. <doctormo> pleia2: I agree, but we can help that by thinking about tools that make the workflow easy to get into, I was thinking about a simple dev tool that downloads the bzr branch and allows commiting like bzr-gtk <pleia2> doctormo: oh, that'd be great <BiosElement> The one I first thought of is Sphinx which is what python uses for their docs. It's got a very clear .txt format. Not sure how hard it'd be to setup though. I can try later tonight. <BiosElement> HTML: http://docs.python.org/3.1/whatsnew/3.1.html <BiosElement> TXT: http://docs.python.org/3.1/_sources/whatsnew/3.1.txt <doctormo> BiosElement: If we can find somethign that is editable in openoffice, but more flexible. Then that would be best <BiosElement> doctormo, I'm looking at pure .txt because It may always be possible to build later onto that. <BiosElement> Also bzr commit changes should show nicer. <doctormo> Of course, although html, xml, wiki and pdf should all be considered publication target formats. <pleia2> yeah <BiosElement> Exactly. <BiosElement> doctormo, Any thoughts on the sphinx example? <pleia2> and if there is some kind of moodle format <BiosElement> pleia2, If there isn't I could probably hack one together. <BiosElement> reStructuredText and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markdown are the other two that come to mind. The python docs example uses reStructuredText <doctormo> BiosElement: As a python programmer myself, I'd have a bias for using sphinx and such, but we may need something more apt, I'm not sure how we should include images etc, but it's a larger scope than just doc <BiosElement> doctormo, That's what I was thinking. I like python too. But Markdown is another that could work. though we'll have to figure out images. <BiosElement> Personally I see no need to re-invent the wheel with several good proven .txt based formats out there. <BiosElement> Images work with markdown. Syntax is ![Alt text](/path/to/img.jpg "Optional title") <doctormo> BiosElement: And now what about editing tools? At least LaTeX has gui tools for editing we could use <doctormo> Oh did I mention that your files should all have the name of the class rather than just the generic couse name 'Teaching' <BiosElement> I'd imagine there's a editor. I'll go poke around <BiosElement> And yeah, I figured that. <BiosElement> Would we even really need a gui though really? I mean the point would be to focus on the text. It could always be written in .odt and converted over to be upped <BiosElement> IMO the syntax is pretty clear <doctormo> BiosElement: Aye, sometimes it's just a matter of apperences though, if we could edit the entire class in one long stream but them have it split up when saved, that would be best. <BiosElement> I hear what you mean <BiosElement> Funny thing is Sphinx seems the least complicated >.> <doctormo> heh, well if you want to give it a shot just take my networking class and convert it into sphinx and see hwo easy the workflow is. <BiosElement> Aight, I'll start toying <doctormo> BiosElement: The most research and playing around, the better our workfow I think <BiosElement> Probably <BiosElement> doctormo, Sphinx can export to latex, html and probably pdf <doctormo> If not, then latex or html will, I just want to make sure that I could define 1xdiagram, 1xexplination, 1xdescription and 1xexercise which can be combined into a published section with other sections into the overview sheets we know and love. <BiosElement> Honestly with a few changes I think sphinx can do it. It's a little focused towards documenting a project rather then just a document but that should be just a few template changes away <BiosElement> doctormo, Question: Would it be useful to have digital "textbooks" and just use moodle for the "coursework" like quizzes, mail, etc? <doctormo> BiosElement: If we can do it so that the moodle is front end providing those downloads <BiosElement> doctormo, Well it could be all in a pdf, zip, page-by-page or hosted. <doctormo> BiosElement: Depends how we do it <BiosElement> Personally I'm really liking this format. It'll take me awhile to convert it all over but it's really simple to do and looks great. <doctormo> If you can commit to a different branch, then we can both have a play around, what ever you do, I'll need to set up some tools to make this all easier <BiosElement> I don't mind if I have to convert others work over from .odt format honestly. the actual work isn't hard. Just I'm flooded with windows here so It's kinda slow work >.> <doctormo> BiosElement: I can see that formatting and structuralisation is fun for you yes? <BiosElement> doctormo, I sound like a masochist don't I... >.> Not fun exactly, but it 'is' fun to get instant gratification. <doctormo> heh, well I'd like to see the first class and what scripts / tools to automate the workflow before you convert any more. <BiosElement> Currently all you do is run "make html" in the directory and it dumps the html files into a seperate directory ready for use. If there are images it'll copy the ones that are used over also <BiosElement> doctormo, http://bioselement.com/teachingtest.zip <BiosElement> Note that I haven't actually done more then a quick test. I got distracted by looking into the templates <doctormo_> BiosElement: Interesting stuff <BiosElement> That's what I thought. <doctormo_> Now get it
{'channel': 'ubuntu-learning', 'month': 9}