#launchpad 2005-08-01 <dilys> Merge to rhonda96@example.net/launchpad--devel--0: [trivial] PackageVersionVerification (patch-2174) <dilys> New Malone bug 1591 filed on Bazaar by Matthieu Moy: baz rm non-existant-file should give a clean error message. <dilys> https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/malone/bugs/1591 <dilys> Merge to rhonda96@example.net/launchpad--devel--0: Add Soyuz legalese. r=sabdfl (patch-2175: rhonda96@example.net) <dilys> Merge to rhonda96@example.net/launchpad--devel--0: [trivial] fixes to various page titles (patch-2176: rhonda96@example.net) <dilys> Merge to rhonda96@example.net/launchpad--devel--0: Fix checkwatches.py, take 2: s/logger/log and other randomness, r=stub (patch-2177: rhonda96@example.net) <carlos> morning <elmo> ok, wiki migrated - until DNS propogates (30 mins or so), an editable copy is reachable via https://wiki2.launchpad.canonical.com/ (NB: https till DNS propogates) <elmo> the old one is uneditable, so don't worry about editing the wrong one <carlos> elmo, what changes with that migration? <elmo> oh, y'all have to use your launchpad login now <elmo> carlos: I've no idea, I just got "MOIN 1.3 NOW. SCHNELLE, SCHNELLE, BITTE" orders from brazil <carlos> ok, so it's a version update <carlos> + launchpad integration <jordi> hello <carlos> jordi, ! <carlos> jordi, tonight acs, Kal, xavi de blast and Ismael will be in my house having dinner, do you want to come? <jordi> carlos: I can't, I have another one :( <carlos> ok * carlos out <dilys> Merge to rhonda96@example.net/launchpad--devel--0: [trivial] Improve descriptions in registry interfaces (patch-2178: rhonda96@example.net) <kiko> ahoy <Kinnison> ahoyhoy kiko <kiko> the pillowman <carlos> SteveA, hi, around? <SteveA> hi carlos <SteveA> i'm around <carlos> SteveA, launchpad.Append does not exists <carlos> also, https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/malone/bugs/1564 -> a bug I think it's related with the sqlobject garbage collector, that bug is a bit critical for Rosetta <daf> carlos: have you tried using row.expire()? <carlos> daf, no, I didn't <carlos> the problem is that I need to change it, commit and ask stub to run it <SteveA> carlos: I said: <SteveA> Add a launchpad.Append permission to permissions.zcml. Make this <SteveA> permission be used for the +addpotemplate form. <carlos> daf, anyway, it's still a bug <SteveA> <carlos> oh, ok, I missed that part <carlos> SteveA, thank you * SteveA looks at 1564 * Kinnison cringes. Mark said "Multiple inheritance of seeds" <Kinnison> fortunately he then ran off <dilys> Merge to rhonda96@example.net/launchpad--devel--0: [trivial, rs=sabdfl] Tighten comment spacing in bug report pages (patch-2179: rhonda96@example.net) <SteveA> carlos: hello <SteveA> carlos: stub and i have been looking at the memory issues when running that script <SteveA> carlos: stu will try another run of it in an hour or so <carlos> ok <carlos> SteveA, is it related to the way I implemented it? <carlos> or it's a problem with sqlobject? <SteveA> you're doing a commit every so often <SteveA> the caches should be cleared out on a commit <carlos> once per row <SteveA> although, you may need to explicitly del and run gc some things. we'll see how the next run goes. <SteveA> running one commit per row may end up being very slow, but it's a good enough start. <SteveA> holding onto objects across a commit is a bit dodgy <SteveA> so, you should probably get a list of ids <SteveA> and then for each id, get the object of that id, do the work, commit <SteveA> that avoids the problem of hanging onto objects across a commit <carlos> SteveA, ok, will take into account it for the next script of that kind I develop <SteveA> please rewrite this one <carlos> in case next run works.... <SteveA> to use a list of ids <SteveA> even if it works, it will be a source of bugs <SteveA> because we shouldn't be holding onto objects across a commit <carlos> SteveA, once it's executed the script will not be needed anymore <SteveA> also, stub says that the latest sqlobject fixes don't fix it <carlos> it's a migration script <SteveA> 1. if it will remain in RF, it needs to be right. 2. it still doesn't work. <carlos> ok <SteveA> for point 1, other people will be using it as an example of how to write this kind of code. <carlos> SteveA, If it will stay in RF after the migration is done, we should find a better place to store those kind of scripts than the pending db directory <SteveA> ok <daf> see also database/schema/pending/daf-migrate-pre-po-template-rawfile-2.py <carlos> ok <daf> (it's been there for months and months) <carlos> daf, anyway the amount of potemplates and pofiles is lower than the amount of potranslations <carlos> daf, so perhaps you don't have the memory problem because that <daf> sure <daf> I was just pointing it out as another example of a Python data migration script <daf> we were having problems with the query to get PO files pending import running out of memory <daf> you remember? <carlos> daf, but that was because the attachments being huge, right? <daf> yes <daf> that script had that problem <daf> because it needed to get all the attachments <daf> and put them in the Librarian * carlos -> lunch <dilys> Merge to rhonda96@example.net/launchpad--devel--0: [trivial, rs=sabdfl] Tighten comment spacing in bug report pages (take 2) (patch-2180) <mdke> what infrastructure does launchpad use for authentication? is there any information about it anywhere that I can have a look at? <daf> infrastructure? <mdke> i've found a page on the wiki... it refers to ZODB <mdke> that is where the account information is stored i guess? <daf> no <daf> account information is stored in Postgres <daf> the ZODB is used for session information <mdke> ok... <mdke> i don't know what either of them are anyhow :) <bob2> ZODB = Z Object database <bob2> which i a python object persistence deal <daf> yep <daf> whereas Postgres is a relational database <mdke> so the authentication server is the latter? <daf> it's a bit more complicated than that <mdke> damn <daf> there is a daemon called the authserver <daf> when somebody logs in to Launchpad, it asks the authserver if the account is valid <daf> the authserver looks in Postgres <daf> Launchpad uses the ZODB to keep track of which users are logged in <mdke> ok <mdke> so on something like www.ubuntu.com, ZODB isn't used at all, only the authserver <daf> other things like wikis use the authserver for authentication <bob2> why doesn't LP hit the db itself? <daf> bob2: so that authentication code for all our services is in one place, I'd imagine <mdke> daf, is the authserver like an ldap server? <daf> mdke: I'm not sure how one does authenticatoin with LDAP, so I can't say <mdke> ah ok <daf> I don't think www.ubuntu.com uses the ZODB, no <mdke> so in theory, anything can use the auth server? <mdke> if for example ubuntuforums wanted to unify their login, they could do it? <daf> hmm <daf> good question <daf> in principle, yes <ddaa> graaaagrl... recent update broken my firefox :( <daf> there may be some problems with the authserver being firewalled off <bob2> ddaa: I need to ask you about pybaz and debian at some point <bob2> ie is the public version api-stable enough <mdke> daf, sure, but in principle yes. <ddaa> bob2: hehe <mdke> daf, is there anything I can read on how the authserver works? <ddaa> FYI. the public version == the canonical version, I merge into rocketfuel from the ddaa.net devo branch <bob2> I'd hope that wouldn't expose any account data to whoever ran ubuntuforums <bob2> ddaa: ah, cool <ddaa> Stability wise... <daf> mdke: dunno <ddaa> well... it's not really clear... There are some big changes right now because archive registration is being phased out of baz <daf> mdke: it's spiv who wrote it <mdke> daf, i'll search around on the wiki <ddaa> I mean, "registered names" are being phased out <bob2> ah, right <daf> it's a fairly simple thing that uses Twisted, as far as I know <ddaa> But generally, lack of time to work on it, and generally lack of future for all this code base means I just do not have the time to fix the broken API, so it's likely as stable as it will ever be. <ddaa> (though I hope to remove all the deprecated stuff soon) <ddaa> When I'm reasonably satisfied of pybaz, I release it on ddaa.net <bob2> is deprecated stuff marked with warnings? <mdke> daf, thanks for your help :D <ddaa> bob2: yes it is <daf> mdke: no worries <bob2> rock <carlos> hmm <carlos> lifeless, did you changed "baz diff" recently? <carlos> lifeless, https://chinstrap.ubuntu.com/~dsilvers/paste/fileiZSVkG.html <jamesh> carlos: s/launchpa--devel--0/launchpad--devel--0/ ? <carlos> yeah, I just saw it <carlos> jamesh, thanks anyway <ddaa> bob2: I have learn a thing with pybaz... <carlos> btw, bazaar error messages are a bit cryptic, aren't they? <ddaa> When you have an API that is broken in a way that cannot be fixed with a deprecation path (e.g. WorkingTree deriving from str), just fix it NOW. <ddaa> because you'd rather have such a fix behind you than in front of you... <bob2> haha <bob2> yeah <jblack> Morning guys <carlos> jblack, morning <dilys> Merge to rhonda96@example.net/launchpad--devel--0: [trivial, rs=sabdfl] Tighten comment spacing in bug report pages (take 3) (patch-2181) <jblack> ddaa: I took a look at your docs yesterday. What about % of the api did you deprecate? <ddaa> mh... I guess about 20%... certainly more if you weight by use... <jblack> Heh. Yeah. Looks to me like I'm about 80% affected. =) <jblack> You're getting rid of the lists. What should I be using instead? (The deprecations don't say what they're deprecated by) <ddaa> Yeah, the bits that were deprecated tend to be frequently used in client code. <ddaa> sorry, but providing lists of that can be _long_, take a long time to produce due to network delays, and that are mutable by changes outside of the system, was very much a bad idea. <jblack> I know you think very carefully about how your choices affect people, so I know that you had good reasons. <jblack> So I'm looking at it from the perspective of how to get this code back in line with the direction you're moving. <ddaa> I think the ChangeLog should give you the patterns you need to grep for. <jblack> For categories, branches and versions, there's NameIterables. What's the archive equivilant? <ddaa> Hu? <ddaa> NameIterables? <jblack> CategoryIterable, BranchIterable, VersionIterable <ddaa> Exposing this stuff was sooo crackful... it's all about reducing duplication of code and making pychecker happy... <ddaa> Archive equivalent: "arch.archives()" -> "pybaz.iter_archives()" <ddaa> that's one of those ones where the renaming does not really make sense by itself, only for consistence with other changes. <jblack> Aha. Here it is. (Finally found the archive summary) <jblack> pardon, the function summary <jblack> I should be fine now. <ddaa> lifeless: looks like that old bug with missing branch name <ddaa> File "/home/importd/dists/launchpad/lib/CVS/CacheGenerator.py", line 92, in cleanUpDefaultFillers <ddaa> endFileRev = self.findLastFileRevision(rev.branch, rev.filename) <ddaa> File "/home/importd/dists/launchpad/lib/CVS/CacheGenerator.py", line 124, in findLastFileRevision <ddaa> return self.fileInChangeset(self._catalog.getBranch(branchName).getChangesetList()[-1] , fileName) <ddaa> IndexError: list index out of range <ddaa> Would take me _days_ to figure out how to fix it. * ddaa goes out to confirm the hunch with a debug run <lifeless> ddaa: try nuking all state and resetting it back to enabled, nbot syncing. I bet it will come good. <lifeless> ddaa: I won't be able to look at it for 3-4 weeks :[ <ddaa> mh... has not been published... should be legal to do that... <jblack> bleh. <carlos> lifeless, jblack, ddaa: https://chinstrap.ubuntu.com/~dsilvers/paste/filesWFX6W.html <kiko-fud> salgado, BjornT: http://www.squarefree.com/bugkarma/bugkarma.html <ddaa> mh... IIRC, that one looks like a different failure <carlos> lifeless, ddaa jblack any suggestion to be able to commit? I'm blocked on that problem with bazaar <ddaa> carlos: try using 1.4.N <ddaa> (where N is the latest release, whatever it is ATM) <ddaa> looks like the kind of resource-handling issues that are bound to pop up with the changes lifeless is doing in 1.5. Extra point for making it reproducible. <carlos> ddaa, I can give you my current tree <carlos> ddaa, ok, I will revert to hoary's bazaar <lifeless> carlos: what is the error ? <ddaa> https://chinstrap.ubuntu.com/~dsilvers/paste/filesWFX6W.html <lifeless> carlos: I'm at the end of a long thin pipe, web pages DoNotHelp <ddaa> carlos: current tree would certainly help <carlos> lifeless, /{{EMAIL+EMAIL}}/src/hackerlab/vu/vfdbuf.c:1681:botched invariant <carlos> avail >= count <carlos> baz: uncaught exception: -1:(exiting on botched invariant) <carlos> please report this as a bug to rhonda96@example.net <carlos> lifeless, I get that with a commit <ddaa> just after the changeset generation <carlos> ddaa, ok, I suppose a tar.gz would be enough, right? <lifeless> carlos: thanks. That is new and interesting :[ <ddaa> carlos: bz2 preferred, considered the size of a launchpad tree nowadays <lifeless> carlos: I'm fixing now, rollback a few baz's to get it fixed in the interim <lifeless> carlos: no need to send the tree around <carlos> ok <lifeless> fixed, testing <carlos> is it too bad if I go back to 1.2? <carlos> it's the version available with hoary <dilys> Merge to rhonda96@example.net/launchpad--devel--0: [trivial] Fixed the permissions for the addpotemplate form + test r=Steve (it's not really a review but implemented the way he asked) (patch-2182: rhonda96@example.net) <carlos> stub, lifeless could you cherrypick that patch? ^^^ <lifeless> carlos: fixed, uploading <carlos> lifeless, cool, thanks <lifeless> sprint guys : kiko, me, stevea and mark are in a meeting for the next 60 minutes odd - please take care of yourselves/next break etc. <lifeless> Kinnison: ^^ <SteveA> well, i was going to announce it in 5 mins <dilys> New Malone bug 1597 filed on Bazaar by David Allouche: baz switch to fail with unrelated revision <dilys> https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/malone/bugs/1597 <kiko-fud> ddaa! <ddaa> kiko-fud: ? <kiko-fud> I didn't get a chance to say bye, how was your trip home? <ddaa> unexpectedly lengthy (as I lost my password on the bus to Sao Paulo) but otherwise reasonably pleasant (as Varig changed my ticket for free for the day after, and I got a business class seat). <kiko-fud> ddaa, password? <ddaa> hu... passport <ddaa> same difference :) <kiko-fud> you're joking? <ddaa> no, I'm not <ddaa> It was reasonably easy to get a right-of-the-way at the french consulate, and a helpful .br policeman at the airport put me on the track. <kiko-fud> where did you sleep? <ddaa> NH hotel near the consulate, they had a week-end price (about R$150) <lifeless> thats like 2francs right ? <ddaa> I'll try to expense it though <ddaa> lifeless: no, that's more like 300FF <ddaa> or 60 eurs <ddaa> I could have found cheaper, but I decided it was too much to ask at midnight, with my luggage, in a foreign country whose language I do not speak :) <lifeless> yah <lifeless> should be expensable I think <jblack> lifeless: porting to pybaz looks easy enough. Got reminded in a bad way that elmo hasn't fixed pydavlib. <dilys> Merge to rhonda96@example.net/dists--bazaar--1.5: new build (patch-57) <dilys> Merge to rhonda96@example.net/hackerlab--devo--1.5: unbreak vfd buffers where a write is smaller than the current buffer size increase (patch-12: rhonda96@example.net) <lifeless> carlos: ^^ the fix. <carlos> lifeless, thanks! <ddaa> lifeless: cannot run importd locally... looks like your "reconnection" hack broke something. <ddaa> haha... <lifeless> ddaa - /my/ reconnection hack ? <ddaa> Must be the removal of implicit begin... <lifeless> oh, db reconnection. <lifeless> command line runner you mean ? <ddaa> nah buildbot... but actually it's not your hack <ddaa> well, it's the "spiv who is reviewing this suggested this XXX abstraction violation. RBC 20050608" * ddaa sets implicitBegin=True <ddaa> yeah, working now <lifeless> do not be doing that in production <lifeless> I'd like to know why its not working locally for you <ddaa> that's because it's doing txn.abort() before the first txn.begin() in jobsFromDB when the service was not setup (i.e. pristine tap). <ddaa> mh... probably the sqlos reconnection broke the assuption that SQLBase._connection was not None when no transaction was begun. <dilys> Merge to rhonda96@example.net/launchpad--production--1.26: Cherry pick patch-2177 into production (patch-4: rhonda96@example.net, rhonda96@example.net) <lifeless> jobsFromDB should do what hte test I did does and check for a transaction then <ddaa> lifeless: the issue is almost certainly the fact that production launchpad is based on 1.22, then <ddaa> I'm being called <ddaa> I'll look into upgrading importd's launchpad soon. * ddaa -> dinner <Kinnison> Can the launchpad webapp launch a long-running process to run in the background? <SteveA> um <SteveA> sounds yucky <Kinnison> I want to trigger a germinate run on a web request, but not hold the request until the germinate completes <Kinnison> It could be a thread, I don't mind that <SteveA> we need to talk about this <SteveA> there are many complexities here <Kinnison> okay <lifeless> rosettas export process is a good example of a resasonable approach <SteveA> for example, we'll have many server machines with many launchpad webapp servers on them <SteveA> ideally, you'd use the database to signal to the germinate box <SteveA> the database is our central point of coordination <lifeless> i think there is a clear line to these things - either they are near-instant or they get queued and processed asynchronsouly <Kinnison> Okay, so I have to queue them? Hmm <Kinnison> That's fine <SteveA> okay <SteveA> if you need it more responsive, we can do something about that. but i'd rather not. <Kinnison> naah, a cronscript will be fine <SteveA> good <dilys> Merge to rhonda96@example.net/launchpad--production--1.26: Cherry pick patch-2182 into production (patch-5: rhonda96@example.net, rhonda96@example.net) <carlos> stub, lifeless thanks <carlos> mpt, ping <carlos> Kinnison, hi, around? #launchpad 2005-08-02 <ddaa> Is there some documentation explaining what are the benefits or being the owner of a launchpad product? <ddaa> jblack: that would be something useful when talking to community folks about taking ownership of products in launchpad. <jblack> Not that I'm aware of, no <jblack> Presumably the two benefits would be karma, control or both. <jblack> I don't think karma is in yet. Control is a more interesting question, but it might not hurt until there's a little more implemented. That doesn't mean we can't make a nice document and have it ready <ddaa> I do not feel that karma bling is really a good selling point for pragmatic maintainers, for I would not care the least. It's more the specifics of the "control" that I'm asking about. I posted to the mailing list. <jblack> Certainly, there's going to be a point when there's enough value in launchpad that a creator of a product will want to be the launchpad owner as well. <jblack> They'll want to take personal responsibility for that content. * jblack writes a note to interview bradb about the relationships between malone and product owner. <jblack> daf and rosetta as well. <jblack> I have no doubt that if not today, then soon the product owner gets to decide who has awesome powers when it comes to bugs for a product. <jblack> rosetta probably has a copule weak relationships. <jblack> The product series management will be very, very important too, once there's enough percieved value there. <ddaa> but it's not clear how useful such "awesome powers" are for a product that already has its own bug tracker. <jblack> It will be once malone is so good, that anybody that uses anything else will be a dope. =D <ddaa> I'm not being negative, just trying to keep focus on "now and here". <ddaa> Since I'm sure there's more to Launchpad that I'm aware of. <jblack> "What do I miss if you delay taking ownership until next week, if I'm not using malone anyways?" <jblack> "What do I miss if I delay taking ownership of a product until next week, if I'm not using malone anyways?" <jblack> Is that the question? <ddaa> The question from the scribus guy was more like "why should I care about launchpad" <ddaa> which was a genuine question <ddaa> not "why should I care this week and not next week", but "why should I care today". <ddaa> but maybe that's just my own perspective <ddaa> like some guy pointed out, I believe in working code, not in shiny ideas. <jblack> What I'm trying to get out of this is whether he's asking why he should care today, or why he should care at all <ddaa> does that make any practical difference? <jblack> I think so. <jblack> If he doesn't care today, then he has a understanding of the possible value, but doesn't recognize current value. <jblack> If he doesn't care at all, then he doesn't recognize possible value as well. <ddaa> Well, they were quite friendly, I guess he was asking about today. "You can assign it to me once my account registration goes through, that's fine. What can we do with it is the question?" <ddaa> I just understand that as a "that's cool, but what is it useful for?" <jblack> Heh. I wonder what my life would be like if I had registered certain domain names back in the mid 90's. <ddaa> That's a different thing. We'll arbitrate disputes sensibly, and anyway the owner is a core developper. <ddaa> Clearly, if it were not possible to speculate on domain names, websquatting would be pointless. <jblack> I'm not suggesting that he squat. :) <ddaa> That was a "okay, the product is in good hand, and you can assign it to me if you want, but then what?" <jblack> I'm suggesting that he can avoid the inconvience of contacting a human if somebody else squats on his property. <jblack> but then what? Then we'll get ahold of him when we've got somethign ready that we think he needs. <jblack> Today, we've got the resources to hunt down owners for many of the owners of ~1k products. We likely won't have those resources when we've got 50 times that. <ddaa> Ha, that's a interesting answer "we're working hard to make launchpad something you will want to use, the product owner is the person we will spam when we think it's ready" <jblack> Nah. Thats not spam. <jblack> spam is centered around money. This isn't. <ddaa> Maybe "launchpad is something you will want to use as a packager when it's ready. It's not ready just yet, but if you are the project owner we will contact you with interesting news and events" <ddaa> duh... <jblack> You've got a point (a good one too, a lot of people could think that way). <jblack> So we do a standard do-not-contact checkbox. <ddaa> then, back to the original question <ddaa> why, as a project maintainer or core developer, should someone care today about it? <jblack> David, if he's not interested right now, then that's ok. He'll come along on his own some day. <ddaa> (except for the import, since it that case it was already done) <ddaa> jblack: you're missing my point, the guy was not "not interested". Actually, you could read it as he was asking us what interesting stuff we had for him. <jblack> Did you consider the "we did this import info in the hope it would be useful to you. Now that the work has been done, would you mind registering as the proper owner of the product, so that the product is owned by the right person rather than a canonical developer?" <ddaa> Let's play a game. I'll play the maintainer. <ddaa> To what you just said, I reply: <ddaa> "You can assign it to me once my account registration goes through, that's fine. What can we do with it is the question?" <jblack> One of the things that you can do right now is that you can assign extra product series to your import. That way a program named dyson can be used by the distributors to track patches for your software. That way, end users can compare whats been fixed where. <ddaa> IOW, "no problem, I'm creating my account so you can assign the product to me. Thanks for the import, that's going to be useful. Now that the import is running automatically, what else can I do with that product?" <jblack> Are we role playing, or debugging? :) <ddaa> "How do I use Dyson"? <ddaa> Roleplaying to debug the argumentation :) <jblack> Dyson isn't the thing that's actually used. The actual interface is going to be through the bug tracker, malone. Don't worry, you don't have to use malone if you don't want (in fact, if you're using bugzilla, malone tracks things for you) <jblack> The important part is that the people that are packing your software for you and giving it to the community for you are going to be able to track patches for your software much more efficiently. <jblack> There's other things as well, if you're interested. ;) <jblack> We have plans in the near future of implementing something at the supermirror called "starring". <ddaa> "Actually, I'm the packager. The baz import will allow me to package using tla-buildpackage. But the import is already running." <jblack> As the maintainer of a product, you can note for end users which third party branches for your product are important. Its a way for you to help developers of your software to know which branches you're interested in. <jblack> Oh, which distro do you package for? <ddaa> "I'm packaging for ubuntu" <jblack> Oh. In that case, you're gonna do it because if you don't, Mark will shove his size-X boot up your ass. ;) <ddaa> (taking user hat off) the thing you say about third party branches is not true, yet <jblack> I didn't say its true now. I said it's going to be true. :) <jblack> btw, I wouldn't make the boot comment, at least not in those terms. <jblack> Id actually say something more along the lines of "If you're already in ubuntu, then you probably have a good idea of where we're going, and why we're trying to get the dataset as accurate as possible" <ddaa> The guy appeared to be quite reasonable, not hostile, but not a fanboy either. <jblack> He's a ubuntu developer? <ddaa> nope, it's just the upstream <jblack> Ok. So he's not the packager, correct? <ddaa> the -ubuntu packages versions are done by doko, jriddell and so on. He is signing the changelog entries for version that are not specific to ubuntu. He is the upstream packager. <jblack> Ok. sync. <ddaa> http://packages.ubuntu.com/changelogs/pool/main/s/scribus/scribus_156.14.161.142-1ubuntu1/changelog <jblack> In that case, I'd mention the plans for malone doing multi-distro tracking and ubuntu-upstream tracking. <jblack> We also are in strong need for projects that are willing to be test subjects for us. <ddaa> mh... I sort of see the point, but that starts to be a bit complicated for me... <jblack> If he helps us by letting us use him as a test case, then the process is going to be salted with his input, and give him tools that are closer to his needs. <ddaa> I guess that the guy might be receptive to that. <jblack> Most developers are. :) <jblack> Another approach I'd consider (I'd have to know him reasonably well first) is the old changing-the-world argument. <ddaa> But I do not really feel up to the task of convincing him. "We are going to track your bugtracker in malone, and other distro bucktrackers as well. Okay, it's not really working yet and it sucks as a bug tracker, but if you would beta-test the stuff for us we would do our best to make Malone something you'd use every day" <jblack> (Nobody likes to think that they're getting in the way of an einstein) <jblack> ddaa: That's ok. Its my job to do that. :) <jblack> The very, Very useful thing you could do to help getting this done is to give him a favorable introduction of me. <jblack> That should be easy. I'm a nice, patient guy and I rarely bite. <ddaa> well, I'm certainly ending up doing a fair bit of it myself, as I'm going to interact with community guys as part as the import sheperding etc. <jblack> Hur? I thought I was sheparding imports? <ddaa> ha? <ddaa> Well, that's fine. <ddaa> All this stuff just came from a reply I made for a bug. <jblack> I could be desynced here (that happens to me) <ddaa> "cannot create project scribus" <jblack> But my impression from the self appointed one was that I'd be the human interface to imports and keeping an eye on it. <ddaa> that naturally led me to assign the guy as the owner of the product (i.e. not the packager), and going to #scribus to make publicity and ask if the guy was known and trustworthy. <jblack> Presumably, if there was a problem with the back-end, I'd dump it into some queue somewhere for attention by the guys that have worked ont he code for a yaer. <ddaa> Yeah, it completely makes sense. But then there's not point in setting to strong a separation. <jblack> Yeah. I wasn't planning on that. <jblack> Basically, continuing the old process. Keeping a list of various failures. As time permits, you or lifeless hit the failures. <ddaa> As we get better at diagnosing common failures it would make sense for you to work on the diagnosing as well, as that would enable you to do on-the-spot support. <jblack> If something particularly juicy comes up, I might ping you for a canfix/cantfix <ddaa> Whatever, no point is arguing semantics. <ddaa> Let's just get the work done :) <jblack> And yes, I'm open to that. <jblack> ("Let's get..." and "make sense for you..." <jblack> I'd probably avoid the complicated ones though, as I have the impression from mark that I should be more concerned about hitting the pavement, so to speak. <ddaa> That's my understanding, though second hand, too. <ddaa> That malex guy seems to be away ATM. I'll ping you to to arrange a fortuitous encounter when he seems back :) <jblack> Ok. <ddaa> do you think I should do that in private or public? <jblack> Is he an independant sort, or a community sort? <jblack> If we're dealing with a Lord, then private. If we're dealing with a Raadt, then community. <jblack> Private is generally slightly better, because its better to already ahve a convert amongst the group, so that he does most of the selling. <ddaa> Dunno Raadt, but he seems rather oriented towards his own community. <ddaa> Okay. * ddaa -> back to debugging debbugs import failure <dilys> Merge to rhonda96@example.net/dists--bazaar--1.5: new build (patch-58) <dilys> Merge to rhonda96@example.net/bazaar--devo--1.5: Added a -m, --modified option to baz commands displaying revision lists (patch-44: rhonda96@example.net) <sivang> ddaa, jblack : can anyone at that stage contribute patches to bazaar ? <nakeee> all the translation I upload rosetta get to the original projects? <sivang> nakeee: there's a mechanism to push them back to the upstream project, IIRC so yes <nakeee> sivang: hwo many translators are using it in hebrew? <sivang> nakeee: you can check through rosetta, let me see <sivang> nakeee: we don't have a registered translators group, guess we'll have to make one <sivang> nakeee: done with tests? :) <nakeee> sivang: hopefully I have a bit free time now:) can I have the permission to add translators? <sivang> nakeee: let's see <sivang> Anyone here can help us set up a hebrew translation group? <sivang> jordi: ping , howya doing? <jordi> hi! <jordi> right now I'm berserking <sivang> jordi: you're waht? <sivang> :) <jordi> raging <jordi> I'm veeery annoyed today. <sivang> jordi: oh, I'm sorry to hear that. <sivang> jordi: do you know who approves new language translation groups? <jordi> hmm, probably carlos right now. <jordi> aha! <carlos_> hi <sivang> carlos: hey carlos <sivang> carlos: What do I need to do to start a hebrew translation team in rosetta ? <carlos> sivang, send an email to rhonda96@example.net asking for it <sivang> jordi: btw, may I as why are you annoyed? <sivang> carlos: ok, what happens when you open it ? I become moderator / whatever and can approve new translators? can I then delegate it to another person? <nakeee> sivang: who is going throught the translation people submit for hebrew?you? <jordi> sivang: I learned just now that I'm forced to give a talk in "Campus Party" about LliureX <sivang> jordi: hmm, is this some kind of an academic project? <nakeee> hmm that's not good <nakeee> so all the translations ppl did so far didn't get in? <carlos> sivang, as we know you, we can add you as the admin for that team and you can add other admins <carlos> jordi, ;-) <sivang> nakeee: what carlos said :) <sivang> carlos: what happened to all translations of poeple so far? <carlos> sivang, is there a problem with their translations? <jordi> sivang: no, one of these meetings of people with pcs where they spend a week copying porn, warez and movies and sleep very little <sivang> carlos: thinking of the moderation now, something must have been done with the translations - either they are held back until review, or already in <sivang> carlos: which is the right case? <carlos> sivang, you will see them as suggestions <nakeee> carlos: I see there are suggestion from other places and found somewhere else comments <nakeee> is it something rosetta adds? <carlos> nakeee, those are translations related to the one you are doing from other versions of that resource or from other projects <nakeee> what other projects? <carlos> nakeee, anyone imported into Rosetta <nakeee> oh it looks for similar strings? <carlos> we will add a link to the origin of that suggestion <carlos> yeah <nakeee> carlos: a use suggestion button might be nice so one wont need to copy paste it <carlos> nakeee, planned too <nakeee> is there a way to add a dictionary project?like something that the string would be the words that appear in all other projects <nakeee> and then it can be used as reference while translating <nakeee> to make sure wording is the same <carlos> nakeee, well, it would be a bit difficult <nakeee> how so? <carlos> as we work with the whole string <carlos> so you need to add lots of terms there <sivang> carlos: I'll email rhonda96@example.net, for the translation group , k? :) <carlos> but there is also a glossary like feature that will handle that by words <carlos> sivang, sure <nakeee> well, it can use a word list but I thought like that it would be more effective <nakeee> carlos: it just a script that need to run once and in the future just adding few words is no big deal <sivang> carlos: done <carlos> nakeee, if you want to translate 'File' the same across all Ubuntu, you need it done with a glossary like feature <carlos> it's really difficult to store all kind of strings that contains that word <carlos> so you translate it always the same <nakeee> that not what I mean <nakeee> I mean it more as a hint to the translator <nakeee> he can click on the word file and see how it appears in the dictionary <nakeee> so he won't need to go around looking how it was in other projects <carlos> nakeee, so you are talking about a html file with a list of words * carlos -> breakfast <nakeee> carlos: yes only 1) I can translate those words using rosetta interface 2)I can quickly ask from inside rosetta what is certain's word translation <carlos> nakeee, that's not so trivial as you think... <nakeee> in what sense? <carlos> that we cannot do it in an afternoon <nakeee> maybe, but I think it would be worse it <nakeee> it would make the translation level of people a lot higher <carlos> I know, and as I said, it's a planned feature <nakeee> ok cool <jblack> when is the meeting? Now or now +1 ? <daf> now+1 <jblack> be back <jordi> daf, carlos: where are we regarding importing/exporting? <jordi> is it fixed in production now? <jordi> I can't start mailing people if it's not working right now <jordi> would scare people away. <daf> we were just discussing it <carlos> jordi, we can add new potemplates now <daf> seems like breezy imports are being really slow <carlos> jordi, but the import is being a bit slow <jordi> nod <daf> and slowing the other imports down <carlos> and that slows too other imports <carlos> X-) <daf> :) <carlos> daf, get out of my mind! <jordi> stop the echo effect <daf> carlos: I suggest you mail launchpad about the problem <daf> carlos: perhaps Steve or somebody will have an idea about debugging it <carlos> daf, well, I suspect where the problem would be <carlos> daf, but hadn't time to test my theory <daf> what's your hypothesis? <carlos> daf, that the imports are failing because the poimports from breezy are attached by Rosetta admins and they are not editors <daf> why would that make it so slow? <carlos> because it takes time to do an import that it's rejected <daf> hmm <daf> and the rejected ones stay in the queue? <carlos> yeah <carlos> so a restart makes it slower <daf> ouch <daf> wait a minute <daf> I thought they were marked as Failed <daf> and not tried again <carlos> daf, it depends on the kind of error <daf> isn't that a bug? <daf> what if we change the permissions somehow? <carlos> permissions? <carlos> so it doesn't fall? <carlos> fall/fail/ <carlos> that's the plan, yes <daf> what's blocking it? <carlos> daf, I was working on the language packs, remember? <carlos> :-) <daf> carlos: how are the language packs going? :) <carlos> daf, added to the review queue <carlos> and being executed on mawson <jdahlin> elmo? <jblack> time for the weekly meeting? <daf> yes <daf> but no SteveA <jdahlin> there's no internet connection in the office here in brazil, where the meeting is held <daf> ahh <daf> that explains it :) * morgs is here... * jblack is here <jblack> Is somebody keeping a log, and we can just meet and send stevea the log? <daf> I expect we'll have the meeting when they get their internet connection back <daf> there's no point having a meeting with 4 people :) * carlos is here <carlos> daf, :-) <bob2> hah <morgs> 3 <morgs> 2 <morgs> 1 <morgs> MEETING E... <morgs> oh] <morgs> hiya <SteveA> hi <SteveA> no meeting today <SteveA> the internet went down <jblack> !! <SteveA> daf, carlos, jblack, ddaa, morgs: the launchpad wiki will be read only for a few days <ddaa> blah <SteveA> so that we can work from it directly here in brazil, in case our network goes down again <carlos> SteveA, ok <morgs> You took the wiki with you? <ddaa> I was just running upstairs with my breakfast... <carlos> SteveA, how will we handle the review queue? * ddaa goes back downstairs with his breakfast <SteveA> carlos: good question <SteveA> carlos: first of all, we won't have any reviewers available until later next week anyway <carlos> SteveA, I'm asking because I just added an entry there <carlos> ok <SteveA> carlos: that's okay. <daf> yeah, I added a page just now <SteveA> carlos: secondly, if we have urgent reviews then you need to mail them <daf> apparently, I am now DafyddHarries4 <SteveA> if you have urgent updates to pages, you need to mail them to here and tell people <SteveA> daf: you need to talk with stu about that <daf> ok <carlos> ok <carlos> daf, I think you can change it from launchpad <SteveA> it is possible that you can't <SteveA> if you can't, tell stu <carlos> stub, I will need to cherrypick a patchset today, would it be possible? <carlos> daf, my theory was correct, I have a test and the fix ready <stub> Email me and lifeless as per usual <daf> carlos: fix? <daf> carlos: make it fail when the permissions are wrong? <daf> carlos: or rather, makrk the import as failed <carlos> hmmm <carlos> daf, that other fix should be done too. Thank's for remind me it <daf> heh <daf> what was your fix? <daf> even better, check the permissions *before* doing the import <daf> to avoid doing unneccessary work <carlos> daf, canEditTranslations returns True always if it's a rosetta expert <daf> ah <daf> rosetta admin, you mean? <daf> does that use a celebrity? <daf> if it doesn't, it should <carlos> it does <carlos> that's why I said Rosetta expert ;-) <daf> hmm <daf> ok <carlos> hmmm <carlos> daf, the error is: raise AssertionError, 'published translations are ALWAYS is_editor' <carlos> daf, that was a programming error that the test will detect in the future <carlos> I don't think we should try to catch that exception <daf> can we change that message to something clearer? <daf> and it's better to use AssertionError("...") <daf> not AssersionError, "..." * daf -> lunch * cprov quotes http://www.atlassian.com/software/jira/ about issue-tracker ideas <salgado> lifeless, can you check what happened with a merge request I sent 30mins ago? I didn't get any mail from pqm and it's already processed <morgs> cprov: some friends of mine use jira, very shiny but in java... <cprov> morgs:yeah, I've seen it in a comparision with Trac (http://trac.edgewall.com) which smells much better because is python <lifeless> looks like it failed <lifeless> I'm betting your mail is borked after the outage and the result will come later <jblack> lifeless: I had a couple problems to tell you about this morning, but they're worked out. <lifeless> col <lifeless> cool I mean * jblack will be back in 20 min <jblack> btw, good morning. Hope you're well. =) <dilys> Merge to rhonda96@example.net/launchpad--devel--0: [trivial] Bug 1279: Move bazaar branches from portal to main part of product page (patch-2183: rhonda96@example.net) <mpt> cprov: WordPress uses Rosetta for translations, and Trac for issue/changeset tracking <dilys> New Malone bug 1602 filed on Bazaar by Matthieu Moy: baz inventory panic()s on unreadable directories <dilys> https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/malone/bugs/1602 <ddaa> sivang: anybody can contribute to bazaar (that is baz or bzr), they are just plain vanilla free software projects. <sivang> ddaa: ah nice, I deduced that from the rocketfuel dillys spit outs, I saw "patch from jone doe, ....." :) <sivang> ddaa: but I reckon the canonical versions and the upstream vanilla are different no? <morgs> sivang: the canonical one *is* the upstream one... <jamesh> sivang: we use the same baz as everyone else <sivang> jamesh, morgs : ah oops, thanks fellas for the enlightment :) <morgs> :) <cprov> mpt: Trac rocks a lot, I use it for private/public issue tracking and our clients like a lot the wiki/tickets/SVNview/Roadmap integration <daf> morgs: seems to me that owners of teams always get notifications about membership requests <daf> morgs: so I get these notifications about teams I've created but which I'm not a memeber of <daf> morgs: these teams do have admins who take care of the membership applications <salgado> daf, I fixed this in one of the branches I'm working on. that was a bug. <daf> cool <salgado> from the days before TeamEmail <daf> why did I think that morgs was the teams person? <salgado> daf, I asked that question to myself too. maybe you're the right person to answer? :P <daf> heh <daf> well, I don't know <dilys> Merge to rhonda96@example.net/launchpad--devel--0: [trivial] BuildFarm works again, bits repaired and ready for deep redesign. (patch-2184: rhonda96@example.net) <dilys> Merge to rhonda96@example.net/launchpad--devel--0: [trivial] PackageVersionVerification and tweaks (patch-2185: rhonda96@example.net) <dilys> New Malone bug 1603 filed on Registry by Morgan Collett: RDF fails when team has an email <dilys> https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/malone/bugs/1603 <dilys> Merge to rhonda96@example.net/launchpad--devel--0: [trivial] Bug 1279: Move bazaar branches from portal to main part of product page, add URL (patch-2186: rhonda96@example.net) * daf -> Brazil <kiko> carlos? <Keybuk> daf: see you soon <Keybuk> be sure to pack any diseases you might want to bring with you <Keybuk> everyone else has <dilys> Merge to rhonda96@example.net/launchpad--devel--0: [r=SteveA] add facet menus to people and projects. add calendar link to facets (patch-2187: rhonda96@example.net) <carlos> kiko, ? * carlos -> out * ..[topic/#launchpad:SteveA] : Discussion with Launchpad users and developers. || https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/ || Includes Rosetta and Malone. <dilys> Merge to rhonda96@example.net/launchpad--devel--0: [trivial] Added Rosetta experts as editors for every .po file (patch-2188: rhonda96@example.net) <dilys> Merge to rhonda96@example.net/launchpad--devel--0: Some fixes as per Steve review. Do not use Subsets to traverse; instead do the traversal by consuming items from the traversal stack. r=SteveA (patch-2189: rhonda96@example.net) <SteveA> salgado: jim fulton says +1 to modifying zope/security/checker.py to have declarations for set and frozenset, using a try:except NameError to make it still work with python 2.3. <SteveA> salgado: you can tell stub, or whatever <salgado> SteveA, great. I'll talk to stub <SteveA> thanks <salgado> stub, <SteveA> salgado: jim fulton says +1 to modifying zope/security/checker.py to have declarations for set and frozenset, using a try:except NameError to make it still work with python 2.3. <salgado> would you fix that for me? <stub> shh.... I'm sleeping <Kinnison> lies <stub> ok <dilys> Merge to rhonda96@example.net/dists--bazaar--1.5: new build (patch-59) <dilys> Merge to rhonda96@example.net/bazaar--devo--1.5: Added ARCH_LOG to commit, import and tag hooks (patch-45: rhonda96@example.net) <dilys> Merge to rhonda96@example.net/dists--bazaar--1.5: new build (patch-60) <dilys> Merge to rhonda96@example.net/bazaar--devo--1.5: rbrowse shows revisions one-by-one (not version per-version) (patch-46: rhonda96@example.net) #launchpad 2005-08-03 <dilys> Merge to rhonda96@example.net/dists--bazaar--1.5: new build (patch-61) <dilys> Merge to rhonda96@example.net/bazaar--devo--1.5: Added a --versions to commands displaying revision lists. (patch-47: rhonda96@example.net) <dilys> Merge to rhonda96@example.net/dists--bazaar--1.5: new build (patch-62) <dilys> Merge to rhonda96@example.net/bazaar--devo--1.5: --from and multiple versions support for "missing" (patch-48: rhonda96@example.net) <bob2> daf: why does dilys sometimes not have a name? <bob2> are those pqm requests really sent without one? <ddaa> The name is the name of the archives of the merged patchlogs (when != from the destination archive) <ddaa> you can have several names when doing a roll-up merge <bob2> hm, I guess I assumed it just took the From: name of whoever sent the request <ddaa> and none in the case of an automatic commit, or same archive merge <ddaa> it _is_ confusing <bob2> you're home again now? <ddaa> I only understood it after going WTF at lifeless <bob2> hah <ddaa> FSVO again, I guess <bob2> hah <bob2> got time for a python q then? <ddaa> sure <bob2> so, I have a moderately complicated class <bob2> with lots of neatly factored-out little methods <bob2> testing the little methods is non-trivial, tho, since they depend on object state <bob2> would you go with "setting state manually in the test suite" or "making the methods take state as arguments"? <ddaa> That's not a python specific question, rather a TDD best practices question <bob2> yeah, true <ddaa> What I would do, would be doing feature tests, i.e. testing whole stories setting up the state running the method being tested, and checkinh the output and new state, without breaking encapsulation. <bob2> hmmm <ddaa> Such tests are useful to have, but that's not the end all... <bob2> I have that too, but I feel safer having low-level "this method does what it's supposed to" tests, too <ddaa> Right, one of my problem is that I have trouble writing unit tests. <bob2> the other issue is that some methofs change external state (e.g. write out files, send email), which makes it a pain to test things higher up the stack <bob2> does it seem like a terrible idea to test a subclass that replaces the externally-modifying tests with stubs? <ddaa> I'd rather set the state manually in your case. Because if your API is message-passing style, designed around accumulating state in the object, it would not make sense to graft a functional API on top of it for testing. <bob2> that's what I was thinking <ddaa> I would stub out the externally modifying classes too. Actually, google for "Mock Objects", that's a kind of stub with testing smarties. <bob2> ah, I forgot about them <bob2> well, in this context, anyway; I do use them for testing inter-object stuff <ddaa> Basically, a mock a stub that provides machinery to test interaction with other objects. <ddaa> While a mere stub is just something that provides enough API to be able to run the code being tested. <ddaa> Nice of you to ask me about that, but I'm really no authority in OOP... <ddaa> re: subclassing <ddaa> lifeless wolud tell you to use compositon :P <bob2> haha <ddaa> Which might well make sense in that case. <bob2> that's a good point, actually <ddaa> to have a separate object to handle communication with the outside world. <bob2> thanks for your thoughts :) <ddaa> my pleasure <mvo> could someone of the python people review a interface for me? python-apt has a "pure" python interface now that hides the details from apt_pkg. a quick look if it looks pythonic enough would be really cool <ddaa> I do not think we have any python-dev here :P <ddaa> mvo: where can I find the code you want reviewed? From the ubuntu archive? <mvo> ddaa: http://people.ubuntu.com/~mvo/arch/ubuntu, rhonda96@example.net/python-apt--mvo--0, directory "apt" <mvo> ddaa: thanks :) <ddaa> did not say I would do it :P <mvo> ddaa: aha :) <ddaa> Thinking of it, I probably focus on my assigned tasks... but I'm curious :) <ddaa> * I should probably <mvo> ddaa: well, if you look at it, it would be very kind if you could /msg me your comments! <ddaa> mvo: baz remark, you can just say "baz get http://people.ubuntu.com/~mvo/arch/ubuntu/python-apt--mvo--0/" <mvo> ddaa: that's a nice feature. since what version of baz does it exist? <ddaa> 1.3 <ddaa> or 1.4... <ddaa> actually, without the trailing slash... <dilys> New Malone bug 1609 filed on Bazaar by David Allouche: Possible arch-cache race condition leading to data corruption <dilys> https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/malone/bugs/1609 <SteveA> silbs: hello <silbs> SteveA: hi. welcome back. <kiko> ahoy <kiko> carlos! <kiko> daf! <carlos> kiko, ! <lifeless> ddaa , bob2 - jsuch long running tests are doctests in nasture. that said, you will have many repeats to handle different expected conditions, which is where I'd use unit tests with setup and tteardown that give appropriate eady to test objects <carlos> so Brazil was connected again? <kiko> carlos, apparently. fuck fuck fuck. <ddaa> doctests?
{'channel': 'launchpad', 'month': 8}