#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-09-01 <kinouchou> Hi <AlanBell> o/ kinouchou <kinouchou> hello AlanBell #ubuntu-accessibility 2010-09-02 <AlanBell> Hi pendulum I am tying this using dasher on maverick and I can't make it crash <AlanBell> I looked at the code there has been a new release and the bit that was crashing has been totally rewriten <AlanBell> back to regular keyboard now <AlanBell> 3 minutes per line is a bit slow <AlanBell> that was with dasher -a into irssi, it works fine, the DeleteCharacters bit it was segfaulting on is now totally not there <AlanBell> it is possible to do /window 20<return> but a little hard still, it thinks it unlikely you want to do a newline without a full stop first <AlanBell> nigelb: how do I mark bug 586558 as fixed in Maverick? <ubot2> Launchpad bug 586558 in dasher (Ubuntu) "dasher crashed with SIGSEGV in Dasher33ec:265c:71fe:e26d:2682:4ec2:aaa1:99absherModel33ec:265c:71fe:e26d:2682:4ec2:aaa1:99ableteCharacters() (affects: 2) (heat: 121)" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/586558 <nigelb> AlanBell: nominate for release Maverick and mark it as fix released <AlanBell> done, thanks <vish> nigelb: why nominate thats for older releases? <nigelb> AlanBell: gah, err, nominate for lucid and maverick and once accepted, mark the maverick one as fixed <vish> AlanBell: you can just mark it as fixed and comment "Fixed in Maverick" adding a version number will be a bonus <nigelb> vish: we want to track the same bug for lucid too <AlanBell> ok, nominated for both and set back to confirmed <vish> nigelb: still , it first needs to be marked fixed , the main task is for the devel version ie maverick <nigelb> vish: yes, but when you 2 tasks, having one as fixed relased makes sense doesn't it? <vish> the lucid tasks will be opened later.. <vish> nigelb: no, but that is how it works. first we mark it fixed , the main task is always > devel release <vish> current one.. <nigelb> vish: Ah, correct. /me kicks self <nigelb> today is just not going right <AlanBell> so it should be fix released? <AlanBell> and nominated for Lucid? <vish> AlanBell: yup, the nominate for release we use mainly for SRU <vish> yup <AlanBell> ok, done <AlanBell> don't think I can withdraw the Maverick nomination <vish> no , you've branded the bug ;p <nigelb> AlanBell: don't worry, it will be rejected by the powers that be <vish> AlanBell: if you want to follow through for a SRU , finding the exact patch that fixed it would help.. usually unknown bug fixes dont make it for an SRU <nigelb> Even known bug fixes without someone prodding doesn't make it for SRU <vish> hmm , but reading the AlanBell's comment , it seems it might not be a SRU candidate.. he mentions a rewrite.. <AlanBell> vish: I have a feeling it is a bit of an architectural change rather than a patch <vish> :) <AlanBell> the function that was crashing no longer exists <nigelb> oh, well <nigelb> AlanBell: nominations accepted/rejected :) <AlanBell> great, thanks #ubuntu-accessibility 2010-09-04 <AlanBell> is there an accessibility team reporting page? * nigelb looks * AlanBell couldn't find one <nigelb> nope <AlanBell> Pendulum: do we want one? <nigelb> we do <nigelb> nice to let everyone know what we're up to :) <nigelb> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BuildingCommunity/TeamReporting <nigelb> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BuildingCommunity/TeamReporting/HowTo <Pendulum> we should have one <Pendulum> i've just not gotten around to doing it before :P <nigelb> :D <Pendulum> AlanBell: oh, I think I asked this before and didn't get an answer. were the links spit out by meetingology valid for grabbing logs? <AlanBell> fairly valid <AlanBell> http://mootbot.libertus.co.uk should be browseable and have everything in it * nigelb lols at 'meetingology' <AlanBell> the study of meetings:-) <Pendulum> ta :) <AlanBell> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEfKEzX9QLE <nigelb> hahah <AlanBell> text version http://centuryads.blogspot.com/2007/01/you-got-ology-1987-launch-of-bt-beattie.html <nigelb> wow, to think about how innovative they were <marianne> oops <`marianne`> xchat really really really needs individual nick settings per network... the mac version has it <`marianne`> ah, now i feel silly <`marianne`> the options are there, but hidden if "use global information" is ticked <AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/TeamReports <AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/TeamReports/10/August if you have stuff to add to it * Pendulum adds meeting date/logs :) <AlanBell> great <Pendulum> nigelb: are you still awake? <Pendulum> TheMuso: before I forget to ask, what ever happened to trying to set up a gobby server? #ubuntu-accessibility 2010-09-05 <nigelb> Pendulum: I am now <Pendulum> nigelb: I have to go to dinner now, chat when I get back? <nigelb> sure <qu|x> hi all :) <Pendulum> hi qu|x <qu|x> Pendulum: Is it the channel for purblind people? :) <qu|x> Evening, school, I'm going to sleep! <qu|x> Bye all #ubuntu-accessibility 2010-09-06 <AlanBell> qu|x: purblind meaning partially sighted? <AlanBell> but yes, this channel is for everyone <qu|x> AlanBell: yes :) <Pendulum> http://www.webupd8.org/2010/09/synaptic-is-going-bye-bye-soon.html haven't we been getting a lot of synaptic related questions recently? <Pendulum> (and I've confirmed with someone that the story is fairly accurate, although, my confirmer isn't sure if the timeline is 100% correct) <charlie-tca> They have been talking about Software Center replacing synaptic and aptitude for a while now <Pendulum> yeah <charlie-tca> I don't have the timeline for it, myself <Pendulum> I'm not sure anyone does <Pendulum> it seems to be a bit fuzzy <charlie-tca> heh, not surprising <charlie-tca> Seems to be another case of "let's allow everyone to guess what we are doing" <vish> oh! heh , paultag must have quoted that from me! he was asking the other day.. :p <vish> charlie-tca: Pendulum: actually, i'm not sure how to go to older records on the wiki > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareCenter?action=info , but it should be here , every release we keep postponing a few items to next release and replace synaptic when reasonable.. the plan for updates is : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareUpdates <nigelb> Pendulum: isn't there a problem with webkit (which sc uses) which causes problem with accessibility? * nigelb remembers an angry mail to -devel regarding that <nigelb> charlie-tca: re:ubuntu website, we can talk to the website team :) <charlie-tca> I seem to be frustrated today. The theme we picked for Xubuntu was working, but it changed to black panels again, and now I can't see it. <nigelb> :( <charlie-tca> I can't distinguish these dark colors or light colors without good contrast <nigelb> :( <Pendulum> charlie-tca: I am all for us working for that <Pendulum> at the very least for the accessibility team pages <Pendulum> and if we could convince people of overall change, it'd also be good <charlie-tca> The days I can see are great! The days it blends together it gets crazy <nigelb> if we can at least have an accessible version of the site, it would be great <charlie-tca> It becomes quite a job trying to change all the links and text from the default and still keep it readable by those who use a speaking reader <nigelb> I agree <nigelb> As someone who works on web related stuff, most of the time, its focused on visual beauty than thought for screen readers :/ <charlie-tca> Agreed <charlie-tca> It isn't focused on readability, but rather on "pretty" <Pendulum> yeah <Pendulum> well and "fancy" <Pendulum> like all the people who are so excited about stack exchange <Pendulum> which as far as I can tell is unlikely to be screen-reader usable <Pendulum> because it's all JS <charlie-tca> yup <charlie-tca> Of course, just focusing on visual readability will help improve things, if we can keep them from adding more JS to the wiki. <charlie-tca> nigelb: did you look at the wiki since I made a couple of changes? <nigelb> charlie-tca: I'm totaly swamped until Thu <charlie-tca> Okay <nigelb> Going to be up all night too <AlanBell> charlie-tca: can you give a quick opinion on the readabilty of this moin wiki theme: http://libertus.co.uk:88/uw <charlie-tca> I like it <AlanBell> great <charlie-tca> The text shows very well, and the reverse links work great! <qu|x> reverse links? <AlanBell> the white on aubergine when you hover over a link? <qu|x> Somethink like bit.ly or tiny.url? <charlie-tca> yes, when you hilight the link, it reverses the colors <charlie-tca> yup <AlanBell> ok, interesting, didn't know that was a help <nigelb> AlanBell: read scroll back on what charlie was talking about colors :) <AlanBell> that prompted my question <charlie-tca> The only thing that is difficult to see is the grey/pink text in the upper right. I think it is meant to be greyed out next to the search box. <AlanBell> charlie-tca: yes, it is greyed out until you type something in the search box, then the contrast increases <AlanBell> apparently a standard moin feature <charlie-tca> That works then <charlie-tca> I complained about the wiki when they changed the colors to the dark brown/light brown theme, but it went un-noticed because it looks "pretty" <charlie-tca> You did all that as admin, right? <AlanBell> this is just a development site <AlanBell> running on my laptop <AlanBell> it is a standard moin theme and the theory is to change this to it http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org <AlanBell> no particular reason why it couldn't be contributed to wiki.ubuntu.com as well <charlie-tca> yes, it is just much easier to do that as admin than as a user <AlanBell> if you are logged into the wiki you can choose your preferred theme <charlie-tca> That doesn't fix things when it is hard to see where to do that <charlie-tca> However, if we has a good theme, maybe we can get it added and changed to default for accessibility only <charlie-tca> That is how the help wiki did it <AlanBell> I agree, I was just thinking that if I am going to be talking to people about installing themes it would be a good opportunity to get a high contrast one in the list <charlie-tca> wow! That would be nice <AlanBell> actually there is a new theme on the main wiki already called "light" which is somewhat similar to the one I have been working on <AlanBell> http://moinmo.in/ThemeMarket/SimpleMente perhaps <charlie-tca> Well, actually, that grey text on grey background sucks <charlie-tca> classic is pretty good, but if I recall correctly, you lose some features that Ubuntu added when you use it <charlie-tca> Unfortunately, the only theme that shows things properly with the changes made to moinmoin by Ubuntu is the Ubuntu theme <Pendulum> charlie-tca: are you cool with my bringing some of these concerns to people like jono and the design team people? <charlie-tca> sure <charlie-tca> I tried when ayatana first formed, but they disregarded everything brought up that was not pretty enough <Pendulum> jono because he needs to understand the level of institutional attitudinal change and the design team because they seem genuinely interested in making accessibility work <Pendulum> hmm... I guess I should get involved in ayatana <charlie-tca> And I will even try to give any answers I can <Pendulum> because pretty is fine, but if users can't use it, there's a problem <AlanBell> charlie-tca: do you have an example of something in the wiki that is specific to the ubuntu theme? <charlie-tca> I dropped ayatana. They aren't interested in how usable it is, but rather seemed to be interested in visual appearance <charlie-tca> TOC <charlie-tca> It fails in every other theme <charlie-tca> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility <charlie-tca> If you switch themes and read this, it shows up nicely <charlie-tca> and it applies to the entire wiki <AlanBell> hmm, I see some broken image links <AlanBell> anyhow, Pendulum I think it would be good to get a specifically accessible theme on the u-w wiki along with the one elky designed, then work on getting it into the main wiki <Pendulum> *nods* <Pendulum> I think I'm also going to see, since these are obviously things we want on our blueprint, poke both ivanka and jono about trying to make it to our UDS session <Pendulum> because jono's offered to advocate where he can <AlanBell> yup <Pendulum> and ivanka should be aware of how big an issue things like this are <Pendulum> and I know how frustrating accessibility stuff is as a user <Pendulum> a BBC site aimed at disabled people muffed it up majorly when redesigning their site and message boards (so much so that I nearly had to leave due to the visual design changes) <Pendulum> and that's with their having 4 different colour profiles that they claimed had been tested on users! <charlie-tca> That would be great <charlie-tca> I tried for a year before I built this theme I use on my own website - http://keepingdreams.com/ <Pendulum> *nods* <charlie-tca> and then it fails in windows <Pendulum> aww :( <charlie-tca> heh <Pendulum> bloody IE <charlie-tca> yup <charlie-tca> but, I kind of think if they want to use IE, I don't really care anymore <Pendulum> btw, which of the themes was I supposed to see when I clicked on that :) <Pendulum> since you also have something that I really like in that there's a choice of themes <Pendulum> (i'm also a fan of websites that give you variable type sizes so you can go as big or small as you want) <charlie-tca> I use kubrickflex-blue <Pendulum> *nods* <Pendulum> that's the one I like of the 3 :) <charlie-tca> but I wrote the thing, too <Pendulum> (I do well with blues compared to a lot of other colours) <Pendulum> that's because you have skills :P <charlie-tca> I do too <Pendulum> I don't <AlanBell> locking the type size is the *worst* thing a website can do, that is intentionally breaking stuff <charlie-tca> I don't have the skills now. I did have them <charlie-tca> Yes, and it is really easy not to lock the type sizes. <Pendulum> I have to at some point get a domain and move my blog and find a theme I like that's also accessible (which gets difficult because I really want a theme that's based in pink) <AlanBell> I have had clients ask me to do that in the past so users can't "mess up their carefully designed layout" * AlanBell declined <Pendulum> *nods* <Pendulum> but also sites that actually offer multiple type sizes by clicking buttons <charlie-tca> They don't seem to realize, if I can't read it, I am not using it. <AlanBell> http://theopenlearningcentre.com/ <- buttons at the top <charlie-tca> Mine was all based on my own ability to see. If I can't change font sizes and colors, I lose. <Pendulum> yeah <Pendulum> AlanBell: that's because you get it <Pendulum> sadly you are in the minority :( <AlanBell> I think Alan Lord designed that actually <charlie-tca> Oh, that! Yeah, I thought about it, but in Firefox, Ctrl+plus key increases fonts nicely <AlanBell> it does, a lesser needed feature these days <Pendulum> yeah, but who wants to ctrl+plus key or ctrl+minus key all the time <AlanBell> ctrl+mouse wheel is what I generally use (normally for zooming out to see the whole thing) <charlie-tca> me. It is necessary to read a lot of websites now <Pendulum> well, my point is more that some sites use bigger fonts and some user smaller <charlie-tca> of course, I also set my minimum fonts to 12pt <Pendulum> *use <charlie-tca> Never seen one that was too big for me <charlie-tca> Pendulum: I think a very light pink background with a black font might work <Pendulum> fair enough <Pendulum> charlie-tca: yeah, i'm thinking black on pink and just figure out what shade of pink is best <AlanBell> lots of ebay adverts are in *huge* fonts, I think people expect that to get more attention or something <charlie-tca> true <Pendulum> AlanBell: those also tend to have busy colours and confuse my brain :-/ <charlie-tca> They don't realize that the more they are used, the less they attract <charlie-tca> Pendulum: that Table Of Contents thing fails on all the wiki pages <Pendulum> okay, i'm off to see if my powerchair will make it to town and back. catch y'all later :) <charlie-tca> good luck <AlanBell> charlie-tca: I expect it is a simple fix to get the toc working <charlie-tca> doesn't seem to be. When they upgraded moinmoin, it was broken. The fix is to not use it or change themes <charlie-tca> The only fix I have seen is to allow the TOC to have the entire page width <charlie-tca> Unfortunately, it is one of the Ubuntu specific changes to moinmoin that causes it. <AlanBell> not entirely sure which bit you mean though, this is what I see in the modern theme: http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/toc.png <charlie-tca> Correct. The box labeled Contents, should not have the grey shaded box in a white box. The text can be no longer than the gray portion. It will wrap inside the gray box only <AlanBell> ok <charlie-tca> If you shorten the width of the page, it will be seen, even down to single words per line, but the white box is still there <charlie-tca> In the Ubuntu theme, the gray and white boxes are equal and used fully <AlanBell> yeah, see what you mean, and obviously it shows up more with bigger fonts. It is an easy fix to the theme to make. <AlanBell> but obviously not one we can make without access to the theme <AlanBell> I will install http://moinmo.in/ThemeMarket/SimpleMente on my laptop later <AlanBell> see if I can make that work with it <AlanBell> http://libertus.co.uk:88/uw/Accessibility not quite right in that theme either <charlie-tca> Nothing of the pages will be right in any theme except Ubuntu. <charlie-tca> I used modern theme until they upgraded the wiki a year or two ago <charlie-tca> I also tried everything I could to make that work. * charlie-tca ran moinmoin at home for a few years <AlanBell> yeah, I can see how to fix it <charlie-tca> :-) <charlie-tca> I had to stop trying a while back. Concentrated on just being able to do anything for a while <AlanBell> http://libertus.co.uk:88/uw/Accessibility look OK? <charlie-tca> no <charlie-tca> http://imagebin.org/112905 <charlie-tca> Sorry, but that looks the same to me <charlie-tca> wait <charlie-tca> what happened now. It just reloaded properly <AlanBell> caching probably <charlie-tca> I like that <charlie-tca> Is that modern, too? <charlie-tca> ignore that pastebin * charlie-tca is starting to hate firefox 3.6.9 <charlie-tca> it doesn't always download the page again, but it caches everything and displays out of date things <charlie-tca> even when I reload the page #ubuntu-accessibility 2010-09-07 <AlanBell> charlie-tca: have you tried the new ubuntu font? <AlanBell> would be interested in your opinion of using the new font with the large print high contrast theme <charlie-tca> yes, I have been using it. I haven't tried with high contrast themes, but I have it as default for everything, including firefox <charlie-tca> I thought that was what your devel wiki used? <charlie-tca> or am I forcing my fonts somehow? <charlie-tca> I do like it. It is quite easy on the eyes <AlanBell> ok, good, thanks <AlanBell> looking at the impact of making it the desktop default, which it might be <AlanBell> bug 629622 <ubot2> Launchpad bug 629622 in ubuntu (and 1 other project) "MIR+FFE: Inclusion of Ubuntu Font Family ~0.7 in Maverick (10.10) (affects: 6) (heat: 50)" [Wishlist,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/629622 <vish> AlanBell: hi, did you have time to test the 9pt font bug i mentioned? :) <AlanBell> vish: I had a quick look but couldn't see anything special happening, but that wasn't on Maverick at the time <vish> AlanBell: hmm weird, i'm not on maverick either.. thanks though .. <AlanBell> there are some hinting bugs <Pendulum> the Disability Studies Conference at Lancaster Uni is streaming their plenaries this week at http://www.lancs.ac.uk/iss/digital/disability/ <Pendulum> charlie-tca: ping <pendulum|phone> Anyone around? <pendulum|phone> Sorry, my net just went down <AlanBell> hi pendulum|phone <pendulum|phone> AlanBell: Is it just you and me? <AlanBell> um, by the looks of things <pendulum|phone> If so would you be okay with delaying some as the phone is also down so i need to use my mobile to ring the cable company <AlanBell> yes, lets do that <Pendulum> well, I may be around now <AlanBell> oh good <Pendulum> well, theoretically <Pendulum> the net seems to be working <Pendulum> but the phone still isn't working <Pendulum> which isn't a great sign <Pendulum> and I think the net is being quite laggy <AlanBell> ok, well lets see how it goes <charlie-tca> I made it back now <AlanBell> o/ charlie-tca <Pendulum> hiya charlie-tca <charlie-tca> Hi <Pendulum> charlie-tca: I was actually poking you about something completely separate since I think you said you don't have time for personas, right? <charlie-tca> Oh, yeah <charlie-tca> but I was outside with the lawn mower for a few minutes <AlanBell> Pendulum: perhaps we should round up some more bodies to join in with the personas <Pendulum> charlie-tca: can I PM you for a sec? <Pendulum> AlanBell: any suggestions for whom? <charlie-tca> sure, Pendulum <AlanBell> I can ask in -uk for a start <AlanBell> just needs people with a bit of imagination and a good grasp of english <MichealH> Hey all <AlanBell> o/ <AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility while you are waiting <Pendulum> hi sick_fox <sick_fox> hi Pendulum <dutchie> o/ <sick_fox> dont you know how can I get into ubuntu channel? <Pendulum> heya dutchie <dutchie> hi Pendulum <Pendulum> sick_fox: /join #ubuntu <sick_fox> Pendulum, impossible I tried it even with windowed client and it is impossible to join for me <sick_fox> Pendulum, what could be wrong? <MichealH> AlanBell: While im waiting? <charlie-tca> sick_fox: check in #ubuntu-ops <Pendulum> sick_fox: I dunno, but this isn't a channel for support, you might want to try #ubuntu-beginners-help <AlanBell> MichealH: just giving you some light reading <Pendulum> anyway, for those of you here about the "writing project" AlanBell was advertising ;-) <Pendulum> the Accessibility Team has been gathering information to create accessibility personas <sick_fox> thanks for help <Pendulum> AlanBell: do you have the really good link with examples of personas handy? <AlanBell> Pendulum: the IBM one? <MichealH> Sorry? Presonas? <Pendulum> AlanBell: I think so? <MichealH> (13 y/o her) <Pendulum> Personas are generally design techniques <AlanBell> http://www-01.ibm.com/software/ucd/gallery/software.html <dutchie> MichealH: made-up users to exemplify target users <dutchie> or something <Pendulum> dutchie: that's pretty much it <Pendulum> the idea behind it is that people design for people, not concepts <MichealH> made-up users? <MichealH> huh? <AlanBell> ok, so a persona is a character that you have in your head while designing something <MichealH> Like a image of the final thing? <AlanBell> so you are not just building it for yourself, but making sure it works for all your target users <MichealH> Okay :) <Pendulum> so you're designing to people * dutchie tries to find where the UMP personas went <Pendulum> rather than to more nebulous concepts <Pendulum> so with accessibility this means creating personas of people who have accessibility needs <AlanBell> canonical use personas too for designing Ubuntu <AlanBell> we want to expand that set of personas to add some new characters with particular needs <AlanBell> so one might be blind and use a screenreader for example <MichealH> Yeah <MichealH> o where would writing come into this? <MichealH> *So <AlanBell> now we could just have "person A uses orca a screenreader" <AlanBell> which is dull and uninspiring <MichealH> But thats not detailed enough? <MichealH> AlanBell: Yup <AlanBell> so the persona documents flesh this out into a real likeable person <Pendulum> with their goals and life * dutchie will post a link to the UMP personas as soon as ubuntu one finishes uploading <MichealH> So It would be like "name want to do action but, he/she has a disability..." type thing <MichealH> And sort turn it into a story? <AlanBell> kind of, yes <dutchie> ah, https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/pdfEBhpByuVz4.pdf <MichealH> AlanBell: Where do I sign up? <AlanBell> dutchie: yeah, that would be the canonical personas we told Ben not to post to the list <dutchie> AlanBell: oh dear, he never mentioned that <Pendulum> dutchie: that's because he conveniently forgot that we said "don't post publicly" <AlanBell> so yeah go look at the link dutchie posted, that is the canonical set of personas, it isn't a "released" document but we were given it for the benefit this project <MichealH> Can I get started? <AlanBell> MichealH: nope! <MichealH> AlanBell: Why??? :( <AlanBell> because you don't know what you are doing yet <MichealH> I know we are making personas <dutchie> we don't know what personas yet :) <AlanBell> ok, so that document is the kind of thing we want to come up with at the end of the process <MichealH> Okie <AlanBell> just to give you an idea of the overall quality standard we are aiming for and the amount of background about their lives <MichealH> Like "name witched to Ubuntu from Windows num year ago" <MichealH> *witched <MichealH> *swithched <MichealH> I hate my spelling <MichealH> Well, keyboard * charlie-tca keyboard can't spell either <AlanBell> now we want our personas to be realistic, so we conducted a survey, I will link to the questions we asked in a sec <Pendulum> MichealH: more like "so and so teaches 5th grade and likes to play softball" <AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Personas/Survey <MichealH> I really need to go soon <dutchie> hi Thingymebob <AlanBell> MichealH: ok, thats fine, you can catch up over the next few days, this is a long term project <MichealH> AlanBell: Is that it? Because I really need to go <Thingymebob> \o dutchie <MichealH> Okay <MichealH> \o <AlanBell> we got 25 or so detailed responses to the questions which we have put in a spreadsheet somewhere <AlanBell> in fact, yes we are not going to post that on the internet anywhere, but if you want it email me and I will send it to you <AlanBell> emily84@example.com <AlanBell> it has names and emails removed but the answers might be a bit recognisable <Pendulum> well, if you know the people <dutchie> how many were you looking to do? <Pendulum> which most people here don't <Pendulum> we're looking to do about 5 <AlanBell> each one with a different principal impairment, but some may have multiple issues <Pendulum> we were thinking to break down: blind, partially sighted, motor disability, learning disability... and something else that I'm missing <AlanBell> we want a mixture of ages and genders <AlanBell> deaf <AlanBell> motor disability might mean a wheelchair user, but actually in terms of computer use we are talking about manual dexterity, using mouse, keyboard and other pointing devices <AlanBell> so I think we need to start with making up their names and real basic information, then start to flesh out each one in turn <dutchie> yeah <AlanBell> or each pick a different one to do <dutchie> we'd still need names and basic info first to get a good mix, i should imagine <Pendulum> yes <AlanBell> ok, so who is here and interested in working on this? <dutchie> o/ <AlanBell> o/ <Pendulum> o/ <AlanBell> michealH was <Pendulum> so that's 4 people <AlanBell> think we caught everyone on a quiet night <Pendulum> yeah <AlanBell> feel free to drag other people in on this dutchie <Pendulum> I'm also going to poke MichelleQ when I see her next because I think she was also interested * dutchie tries to round up some ump-ers <AlanBell> that would be ideal <AlanBell> lets have a go at writing the high level info <dutchie> how about using an etherpad or something? <AlanBell> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/WkO4TZbvWt <AlanBell> one other thing, we want to make them somewhat successful and awesome people, not a recluse with no friends! <dutchie> :) <Pendulum> but it is realistic to have all sorts of ages <Thingymebob> Do you need to consider if these are from birth impairments, where the person will have greater skill in dealing with it, or accident / health induced impairments <AlanBell> Thingymebob: that would certainly go in the description <Pendulum> but it's not necessarily going to impact actual computer usage that much <Pendulum> (for example, I use a computer similarly to some of the people with CP I know, even though my mobility stuff showed up when i was 15ish rather than from birth) <AlanBell> Pendulum: what sort of ages were you thinking? <Pendulum> i'm trying to think <AlanBell> 30 +-10 seems to cover a lot of people in #ubuntu-uk and who were at UDS <Pendulum> i'd like to have one teen in there. would anyone mind if I moved Henrietta to 18 from 24? <AlanBell> go ahead <Pendulum> otherwise any other ages in the middle work for the last 2 :) <dutchie> shall we scatter them around the globe? we've managed to pick english names for most of them, but they could be changed <Pendulum> makes sense to me <AlanBell> I think a bit more scattering perhaps, I put one in India <AlanBell> no Henrietta! <dutchie> sorry <Pendulum> We can rename Sally. <AlanBell> if I get another chicken I will call it Daniela <dutchie> :) <dutchie> did the other alan manage to keep them all in one piece? <AlanBell> he did <dutchie> \o/ <AlanBell> lol <dutchie> that just leaves Faisal <AlanBell> not a call centre! <dutchie> we could just make him a junior software engineer <AlanBell> yup, that works too <dutchie> ah, didn't see teacher <dutchie> looks good to me * dutchie subscribes to the list <AlanBell> lesson plans to type up and so on <AlanBell> I am pretty pleased with how that worked out so far <Pendulum> yeah <AlanBell> ok, I think we have done enough for now (but feel free to carry on tweaking) <AlanBell> Pendulum: what do you think we should do next, schedule another session? <Pendulum> Sorry, I'm on dasher so am slow. <AlanBell> yeah, thought you might be :-( <Pendulum> AlanBell: either that or divvy up and each take on <Pendulum> 1 <AlanBell> I think working on it together works rather well, we could do a pad for each one and thrash it out, then transfer the results to the wiki or a nicely formatted document later <AlanBell> nice idea dutchie! <dutchie> only if they're not all taken :) <dutchie> wahey <dutchie> right <AlanBell> just wondering when to have another session at it <AlanBell> so I think the thing to do next is to each tell a friend about the project, and show them the etherpad so far <AlanBell> we can schedule another hack hour on the documents in a day or two, via an email to the accessibilty list <AlanBell> thanks all o/ <Pendulum> sounds good to me :) #ubuntu-accessibility 2010-09-09 <Thingymebob_> Anyone catch what Hererfordshire LUG were up to last night http://www.herefordshire.lug.org.uk/node/52 <AlanBell> sounds good, thanks for pointing that out Thingymebob #ubuntu-accessibility 2010-09-15 <pendulum|phone> FYI, tonight's meeting is likely to start late. I have to pick up a friend and then get to an Internet connection and the thing I'm picking up the friend from is so far running over by 30 min <pendulum|phone> AlanBell: If I'm not around by 15 min late and there are people around for the meeting, can you run it? <AlanBell> not doing that well myself on timing * AlanBell is using a phone on a train <pendulum|phone> Heh. I'm phone in a car park * nigelb waves <pendulum|phone> But at least I've now heard from the person I'm picking up so I know she should be out within the next 10! <AlanBell> I think we just found a volunteer <pendulum|phone> Heh <pendulum|phone> Is my phone sending messages to the channel when I go away and come back? <dutchie> there's a meeting tonight? <pendulum|phone> Yes <dutchie> lucky i got back from holidays then <pendulum|phone> Anyway I'm getting offline so I can drive <pendulum|phone> Catch y'all when I get to proper Internet! * AlanBell gets on another train <nigelb> AlanBell: how many trains do you have to take to get home? <AlanBell> two <AlanBell> and a bike <nigelb> AlanBell: I'm so jealous * nigelb <3 trains <AlanBell> I used a Boris bike in London <nigelb> AlanBell: is it like the system paris and montreal have? <Pendulum> heya! <Pendulum> nigelb: AlanBell TheMuso maco dutchie charlie-tca meeting? <nigelb> o/ * charlie-tca waves <Pendulum> I assume y'all didn't start without me since it's quiet in here? <charlie-tca> right <dutchie> o/ * dutchie pauses david mitchell <nigelb> Pendulum: you're our fearless leader afterall :) <maco> umm i'l be on in a bit. i have to get to the bus stop now <maco> well hmmor i can be on now and leave in like 10 minutes and catch a later bus <Pendulum> maco: take your bus :P * dutchie runs off for food <maco> well i wont make it now anyway <maco> its in 6 minutes, and its a 10 minute walk <nigelb> run <maco> i cant run that far! <maco> i can run like... 50m! <Pendulum> okay, might was well get started, I think <maco> its an improvement over the 10m i could manage before, but still not enough to catch the bus :P <nigelb> +1 <Pendulum> #startmeeting <meetingology> Meeting started Wed Sep 15 21:17:53 2010 UTC. The chair is Pendulum. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell. <meetingology> updated <meetingology> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. <meetingology> updated <Pendulum> who all is here? I think saying "present" means the bot recognises you or something like that ;-) <dutchie> updated? <dutchie> present <AlanBell> hi <nigelb> present <Pendulum> dutchie: ask AlanBell about the "updated" <Pendulum> present :) * dutchie senses AlanBell has some debugging he forgot to disable <AlanBell> oops <Pendulum> heya hypatia :) <Pendulum> dutchie: at least it no longer gives me hugs ;-) <charlie-tca> present * AlanBell will bite <AlanBell> oops <dutchie> oh dear, i've made a mess out of this yoghurt <nigelb> AlanBell: present => o/ * AlanBell will be popping out <Pendulum> okay, so meeting agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Team/MeetingAgenda <maco> present <Pendulum> #topic Review of what's been accomplished in Maverick cycle <meetingology> TOPIC: Review of what's been accomplished in Maverick cycle <Pendulum> So I guess the first thing is that we actually have a team! <Pendulum> For the first time in a few years :) <hypatia> woot! <charlie-tca> That seems BIG! <Pendulum> I think it is! <nigelb> Yes it is! <Pendulum> Thank you to everyone who has shown up and helped and supported so that it wasn't just me (or just me and TheMuso ) trying to do it all ourselves :-) <Pendulum> other things that have happened: <Pendulum> We managed to research the info for the Accessibility Personas and AlanBell , dutchie , and I have started putting them together to actually create the personas <Pendulum> we should hopefully have them done by 10.10.10 :) <Pendulum> charlie-tca and nigelb have started working to update the wiki to make it more current and make it slightly easier to follow <Pendulum> nigelb: charlie-tca do either of you have an update on how that's going? <nigelb> Work schedule has been killing lately. (I'm at work at 3 am). Perhaps in 2 weeks. We could use some help. <charlie-tca> We now have a meeting heading we can use to show when the next meeting is. Just update it one place to update all the pages * nigelb hugs charlie-tca <charlie-tca> We changed a couple of pages to see if there would be any feedback. No bad things came back yet <Pendulum> okay so that has been started <Pendulum> anyone who is interested in helping, please poke charlie-tca or nigelb :) <Pendulum> oh, and if you're interested in the personas, please poke one of us who have been working on them <charlie-tca> We are working slowly, to make sure nothing gets changed and can't be read by all of us <Pendulum> charlie-tca: thank you so much! <charlie-tca> You are welcome <kinouchou> hello <Pendulum> hi kinouchou :) <charlie-tca> nigelb: did I miss anything? <nigelb> charlie-tca: Nope :) <charlie-tca> I do have a question, though. <Pendulum> yes? <charlie-tca> Does anyone have an opinion on putting the Table Of Contents first on the page instead of on the side? <MichelleQ> sorry I'm late. ;-) <Pendulum> MichelleQ: no worries :) <charlie-tca> It means having to go to the top of the page to see it, but I think that happens now. <Pendulum> charlie-tca: doesn't bother me <nigelb> Folks using scren readers could greatly help us make decisions while working on the wiki. <charlie-tca> It does eliminate the two different items side-by-side on the page <nigelb> If something is irritating/difficult to use, please let one of us know. <Pendulum> my big thing is that I don't want the ToC to have all the pages listed on it (like it used to) <charlie-tca> It won't <charlie-tca> done here <Pendulum> I'd say if you're worried make a couple mock-ups and we can test them all out and figure out what's best :) <Pendulum> e-mail the list for feedback :) <Pendulum> TheMuso: are you around to give us an update of what's happened in terms of development this cycle? <Pendulum> okay, I'm guessing he's not here yet (I know it's early for him) <Pendulum> so that's all I can think of in terms of reviewing Maverick cycle <maco> its sunrise for him <Pendulum> Anyone else have anything to add? <nigelb> o/ <Pendulum> nigelb: go for it <nigelb> Team Reports! <Pendulum> oh! yes! we did our first team report! <nigelb> I figure we should have a rotating volunteer(s) to deal with it rather than one person <Pendulum> if someone who is actually on their own computer has a link, can you stick it in? <nigelb> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/TeamReports <Pendulum> for those who don't know Team Reports are done monthly and then show up in Ubuntu Weekly News as a way of informing the larger Ubuntu community of what we're doing :-) <Pendulum> I like the idea of switching off who does them, but I think we may want to organize that through the mailing list because a couple people who might be willing to help out aren't here <Pendulum> maybe it should go under our next item of business? <Pendulum> anyone else? <AlanBell> personally I think the team reports should be done by *everyone* <nigelb> AlanBell: yes, but *somone* should make sure its done. <AlanBell> if you do anything interesting, like revamping some wiki bits, chairing a meeting (like this one) blogging about something relevant then shove in a bullet point <Pendulum> right <AlanBell> I am happy to make sure it is done at the end of the month, that is one of the things that the ubuntu-for-all team will help with for various projects <Pendulum> I'm also happy to be the final person since I work on UWN so am aware of when they need to be done by <nigelb> I do it for another team awayway, so I'll be happy to help too. <Pendulum> so it sounds like that shouldn't be an issue <AlanBell> great <Pendulum> is that it? <Pendulum> going once... <Pendulum> going twice... <Pendulum> okay, next topic <Pendulum> #topic Blueprint for UDS-N and the Natty Narwhal cycle <meetingology> TOPIC: Blueprint for UDS-N and the Natty Narwhal cycle <Pendulum> So it's time to start thinking about our blueprint for the next cycle because our next meeting will be so right before UDS that we won't really have time <Pendulum> last meeting I asked people to start thinking about it <AlanBell> does the blueprint exist yet? <Pendulum> no <AlanBell> ok, I will stop looking for it then! <AlanBell> one thing I think would be good would be to contribute an accessible moin theme for wiki.ubuntu.com <Pendulum> I'm just going to assign myself to do that this week <Pendulum> #action Pendulum to set-up UDS-N blueprint <meetingology> ACTION: Pendulum to set-up UDS-N blueprint <Pendulum> so what are things community/documentation/outreach related that people want to see next cycle? <Pendulum> okay, I guess I"m starting <Pendulum> for documentation one thing I'd like to have is a list of programs in Univers/Multiverse that are accessibility related split by what they do <Pendulum> there's an old one on help.ubuntu.com but it's out of date and it's not clear how to find the programs <Pendulum> (like some accessibility related programs aren't found in the Software Center's accessibility section) <Pendulum> I'd also like to get an updated wiki page about the accessible install <Pendulum> as AlanBell discovered, there's not much up-to-date info out there and it's not clear <Pendulum> anyone else have any other documentation things they'd like to see? <AlanBell> I think we have to continue with the personas, getting them attention <Pendulum> yeah <Pendulum> anything else? <AlanBell> we should probably do more with upstreams too <Pendulum> that's the next bit :) <Pendulum> okay, so next bit I was going to ask about was outreach <Pendulum> both internal outreach with Ubuntu, but also working with other projects <Pendulum> for example, I've started doing some work with the Gnome Accessibility team and they'd love to work with us if anyone is interested in helping out there as well <Pendulum> since a lot of accessibility work happens upstream, it'd be nice to work with them <AlanBell> anything in particular they need? <Pendulum> well, they're about to do a huge hackfest next month and one thing they're going to be doing then is tagging accessibility bugs <Pendulum> and they're always looking for documentation help <Pendulum> they hang out in #a11y on irc.gnome.org (which is technically gimpnet, but I never remember that) <Pendulum> so anyone who wants to pop by there is welcome! <Pendulum> as far as internal outreach, I think advertising the personas when they're done is a big thing <Pendulum> also, I think if we could get more blogging done is good <Pendulum> anyone else have any ideas? <Pendulum> anyone? beuller? <nigelb> scheduled blogging hitting the planet? <nigelb> so somone talks about it at least once a week <Pendulum> yeah, probably <Pendulum> i'm a lot less worried about the "how" right now <Pendulum> and more interested in other things people want to have happen <Pendulum> okay, moving on since I'm getting bored of talking to myself <Pendulum> :P <nigelb> heh <Pendulum> I suspect development goals need to mostly be addressed to TheMuso and emily84@example.com <Pendulum> especially as I'm not sure TheMuso is here <AlanBell> some stuff around the installer would probably be good to put in for that <Pendulum> yeah <Pendulum> okay, we're now running late (mostly because we started late) so does anyone have a problem with moving on? <Pendulum> okay <Pendulum> final item on the agenda <Pendulum> #topic Any Other Business <meetingology> TOPIC: Any Other Business <nigelb> We did talk of reports earlier. Does anyone want to add something to it? <Pendulum> I do actually have a different AOB thing, but if people want to talk about reports, please speak up! <Pendulum> anyone? <Pendulum> nigelb: is there something with it you want to talk about? <AlanBell> I will add a link to the persona stuff done the other day <AlanBell> the wiki is being *very* slow right now <nigelb> Pendulum: none, lets move on <Pendulum> okay :) <Pendulum> I want to put out an announcement that if anyone has problems with other Ubuntu teams that are accessibility related, please let me know while they're happening so I can see about mediating what's happening <Pendulum> I've started hearing stuff that has happened where accessibility concerns have been dismissed by Ubuntu teams and I do want to see if things can get figured out so they work for everyone <Pendulum> but if I don't hear about it until after it happens, I can't do anything! <TheMuso> Sorry guys, totally forgot there was a meeting. <Pendulum> TheMuso: no worries :) <Pendulum> TheMuso: do you want to do a "what happened during Maverick" for devel update? <TheMuso> There is not much to say. My priorities have been elsewhere, so other than updating the pieces of the stack as well as I can, thats about it. <Pendulum> *nods* <Pendulum> TheMuso: I've pretty much told people who have things they're interested in in terms of devel to e-mail the accessibility devel list <TheMuso> Been doing a little bit of vinux work in my own time, but I haven't done so for a while. Other personal interests have taken up my own time. <TheMuso> Pendulum: Thanks. <Pendulum> okay. <Pendulum> Does anyone have anything else for the meeting? <Pendulum> going once <Pendulum> going twice <Pendulum> #endmeeting <meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Sep 15 22:26:16 2010 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell . (v 0.1.4) <meetingology> Minutes: http://mootbot.libertus.co.uk/ubuntu-accessibility/2010/ubuntu-accessibility.2010-09-15-21.17.moin.txt <maco> TheMuso: is it still the case that webkit is a failwhale for screenreaders? <maco> i recall that being a complaint about the software center <Pendulum> okay. i'm heading out y'all. catch you later! <AlanBell> maco: not only that, it is now part of the installer <maco> AlanBell: uh oh <TheMuso> maco: Yes, and AlanBell is correct. <AlanBell> night all o/ <TheMuso> maco: Been like that since lucid. All we can do is wait for webkit a11y to catch up. We may consider disabling the slide show in the future if accessibility is enabled... <TheMuso> If webkit is still not ready. #ubuntu-accessibility 2010-09-16 <qu|x> hi all #ubuntu-accessibility 2010-09-17 <charlie-tca> jono: can you check out what is happening in #ubuntu-meeting? <charlie-tca> two people trolling in spanish; no ops around #ubuntu-accessibility 2010-09-18 <AlanBell> anyone want to try out the Ubuntu font who hasn't got it? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ubuntu%20Font%20Family#Howto <qu|x> AlanBell: thanks for interested think :) <charlie-tca> Pendulum: made a few more wiki changes. I guess you should tell us if you hate it... #ubuntu-accessibility 2010-09-19 <AlanBell> http://behindthecurtain.us/2010/06/12/my-first-week-with-the-iphone/ #ubuntu-accessibility 2010-09-21 <AlanBell> http://twitter.com/#search?q=%23a11yldn <AlanBell> today there is an accessibility unconference in London that I didn't know about until just now <Pendulum> JanC: do you mind if I forward that e-mail on to the GNOME a11y list? <JanC> Pendulum: of course I don't mind <JanC> either an a11y track or an a11y devroom would be great <JanC> or both âº <Pendulum> yeah <JanC> BTW: speakers in the main tracks might get their travel paid back, but speakers in a devroom don't <JanC> at least not by FOSDEM; of course the GNOME foundation or Canonical or other companies can (and do) pay their employee's travel <JanC> s/employees/developers/ #ubuntu-accessibility 2010-09-22 <Pendulum> maco: are you on ubuntu-accessibility? <maco> ml? no <maco> chan...obviously <Pendulum> someone just posted to the ml asking about kubuntu accessibility <maco> oh uhhh....nonexistent? <maco> i mean, we have an onscreen keyboard, but not for kdm til 10.10 <maco> annd qt... expects there to be a system-wide a11y framework. which linux doesnt have. so it fails for screenreaders <Pendulum> is there a screen magnifier? <maco> umm....lets see a11y settings have a visual bell and a bunch of stuff about how the keyboard should work... <maco> there's 2 colour schemes available by default for dark background with light text and you can adjust font sizes to huge for folks who need the high contrast <maco> (of course, theyd need someone /else/ to set that up) <maco> yes, kmag is installed by default <maco> its recommended by the kubuntu-desktop package <maco> omfg this is confusing <maco> things are displayed in 3 different zoom levels at once O_O <maco> less confusing if i unmaximise it... it has to be on top and if its maximised...yeah.... dont need a zoom of the zoom <JanC> maco: Qt4 supposedly supports AT-SPI: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assistive_Technology_Service_Provider_Interface ? <JanC> as does Gtk, Java, Mozilla, OOo, ... <maco> i dont think theres any way to enable it in a kde env though <JanC> in any case, there is a system-wide a11y API <JanC> I think it was designed by Sun originally <maco> mmk. i thought at-spi was a gnome thing and hadnt gone fd.o-way yet <JanC> well, Gtk, Java, Mozilla & OOo originally, Qt4 added support around 2005... <JanC> or at least Trolltech announced it then ;) <JanC> http://doc.qt.nokia.com/4.0/qt4-accessibility.html sounds like they did implement it <JanC> the reason why it was first implemented in Gtk/GNOME, Java, OOo & Mozilla is probably that Sun paid for it... <JanC> as they needed it for some US government contracts <Pendulum> I know Sun was one of the big funders for Gnome Accessibility (until last winter, of course) <JanC> yeah :-( <JanC> stupid Oracle <JanC> maybe people should sue them for that, as that seems their favourite way of talking to others ;) <charlie-tca> Good Morning <charlie-tca> since I am not spread thin enough yet, are we doing an accessibility session for UbuntuOpenWeek ? <charlie-tca> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek <Pendulum> I'd love it if we could, however, I am out of town for a doctor's appointment most of that week <Pendulum> and I know TheMuso doesn't usually do things like open week because it's middle of the night for him <charlie-tca> I could do one, what do we want to have ? * charlie-tca keeps in mind he will also be doing a Xubuntu session, as project lead and QA <Pendulum> hmm... good question <Pendulum> heh <Pendulum> charlie-tca: btw, would you be at all interested (if it's okay with TheMuso ) in helping nigelb run a community-based accessibility session at UDS? <charlie-tca> sure <Pendulum> I didn't get sponsorship so I can't do it, but I'd like there to be *something* <charlie-tca> I got sponsorship, so I can do it <Pendulum> (I'll be there remotely for it, but you can't lead remotely) <Pendulum> cool :) <Pendulum> then I'll set up the blueprint and submit it <charlie-tca> great! <maco> i was just saying "jee theres no a11y blueprint yet" <Pendulum> maco: yeah, between my accident and now the fact that I need to check with jcastro about if I need to specify charlie-tca and nigelb anywhere on the blueprint <maco> do we know any europeans or aussies with knowledge of their country's sign yet? <Pendulum> not that I know of <Pendulum> you should join the ubuntu-accessibility ML and ask :P <maco> id specify one of them on "assignee" btw <Pendulum> yeah <Pendulum> I just want to make sure that I don't need to assign one as the drafter, too <charlie-tca> Put me down <charlie-tca> So, for openweek, general accessibility in Ubuntu? What's available, what's we want to
{'channel': 'ubuntu-accessibility', 'month': 9}