#ayatana 2009-04-01 * MacSlow -> lunch <mpt> tedg, hi, I'd like to talk with you sometime about what the API should be for an app appearing in the messaging menu <tedg> mpt: bzr branch lp:indicator-applet :) <mpt> for post-Jaunty where apps can be there even when they're not running <tedg> I don't think that should be an API, I think that should be a place that we move the desktop file to. Kinda like how favorites are done today on the panel. <njpatel> they'll need to provide a conf file for that <tedg> We can have a /etc/indicator/messages/ and a ~/.config/indicator/messages that can have files in it. <tedg> Directories are better for things that we want dpkg to install and configure, that way it doesn't have to merge configuration files. <njpatel> then, when the client registers, we can just do the desktop-file check and remove it from the "not-running" list <tedg> njpatel: Yup. <tedg> Or they can add to the desktop file "NotShownIn:indicator-messages" if they really don't want to be there. <mpt> tedg, so when you uncheck the checkbox in a program's settings window, it moves the file? <njpatel> it's great how many problems desktop files can solve. If only there was a _NET_WINDOW_DESKTOP_FILE_ hint for application windows. It would make life much easier <mpt> ok, that seems reasonable <tedg> njpatel: They are working on one, see xdg list :) <mpt> njpatel, what would that do? <njpatel> tedg: yeah, that would work too <njpatel> mpt: let us easily match windows to applications (for icons etc). at the moment a indicator client will specify it's desktop file as part of the indicator api <tedg> Also, it lets AWN use high res icons reliably instead of guessing. <njpatel> and the dash/unr etc <tedg> And in the case of XDG list, GNOME-shell. <mpt> I thought there was a wm_class or something that did that already <njpatel> I think I'm writing window-matching code for the fifth time in 2 years right now, as it's never perfect (although we're pretty close with awn's rewrite) <njpatel> mpt: nope, wm_class is an abomination which is used differently by different applications <njpatel> but the twosome of wm_class and resource_name gives you your best-bet to matching a window with a desktop file <njpatel> oh, and some apps launch as scripts (firefox), so that also helps to screw up window matching <mpt> (It also screws up the Mac OS X Dock, if that's any consolation) <njpatel> haha, that is :) <njpatel> anyway, libuser is on the case <mpt> libuser? <njpatel> just a small library for unr <njpatel> re-factoring some code <njpatel> i need some tea, badly * MacSlow goes and throws his limbs around #ayatana 2009-04-02 <mpt> davidbarth, good morning, are you subscribed to the xdg@ list? <mpt> davidbarth, good morning, are you subscribed to the xdg@ list? <mpt> -sigh- <mpt> davidbarth, good morning, are you subscribed to the xdg@ list? <mpt> â¡ #ayatana 2009-04-03 <MacSlow> me -> lunch <ScottK> Is there going to be any discussion of your plans for Karmic in advance of UDS? <davidbarth> ScottK: hi <ScottK> Hi davidbarth. <davidbarth> ScottK: that's the plan, or at least announce some of the topics we when to discuss <davidbarth> ScottK: so that uds is more a place where we can interact <ScottK> OK. It won't suprised you to find out I'm very interested in what you think should be done for Kubuntu. <davidbarth> i really hope so <davidbarth> in fact, some topics are going to be common with 9.04 <MacSlow> davidbarth, atm I'm unable to push anything to lp or comment on bugs <davidbarth> ie notifications and indicators <davidbarth> i think there's a lot of value in libindicate (hi tedg) <ScottK> I do hope they aren't precisely common as the KDE situation with notifications is substantially different than the Gnome one. <davidbarth> and i'd like to extend the discussion on that <davidbarth> the good thing is that for indicators we've touched base with sebas early last month (or so) <ScottK> Is he coming to UDS? <davidbarth> + you must have seen bo thorsen's message on the xdg list to restart the standard to make it a really shared and accepted spec <ScottK> No, I'm not on that list. <davidbarth> i hope, yes, i've added him to the list of people to sponsor <davidbarth> but i haven't checked thet status with jono <davidbarth> i have a call with him this afternoon, so we'll see <ScottK> Unfortunately KDE 4.3 is just going into feature freeze, so we will be rather out of sync with upstream. #ayatana 2009-04-06 <mpt> davidbarth, MacSlow, good morning, are you subscribed to the xdg@ list? <MacSlow> mpt, yes ... now I am... for a moment I mixed it up with my xorg list subscription <mpt> MacSlow, there are technical questions in the "Notifications spec: Icons" thread that you could answer far better than I could <MacSlow> mpt, subscribed... will take a bit time until I'll can join that discussion... but I will... thanks for the heads up <davidbarth> mpt: hi <davidbarth> mpt: yes, i'm on the list <davidbarth> mpt: anything urgent to read this morning (the discussion started by bo?) <mpt> davidbarth, one thing that would help is data on how many programs use app_icon, how many use icon_data, and how many use both in the same notification <mpt> because we're trying to decide which of those to retain and which to rename <davidbarth> mpt: ok, i think AurÃ©lien will help here <mpt> great, thanks * MacSlow -> lunch #ayatana 2009-04-07 * james_w waves <davidbarth> james_w: hi! <james_w> hi davidbarth * MacSlow -> lunch * Ienorand -> Brownie cake dessert <RainCT> Uhm.. How are we supposed to join the ML? <james_w> https://lists.canonical.com/mailman/listinfo/ayatana-project <RainCT> thx * kenvandine_wk thinks we should have a topic <jens-25621> Hm.. when i start pidgin a email icon appears in the panel. I guess that's gonna change? <hyperair> nope <hyperair> it's a "message" icon <hyperair> it's not gonna change. <kenvandine_wk> jens-25621: that is the message indicator <jens-25621> This is intended to replace the pidgin pannel applet, gmail notification, evolution notification, etc. Right? <kenvandine_wk> eventually yes <kenvandine_wk> already replaces pidgin and evolution notification icons * davidbarth changed the topic of #ayatana to: 9.04 bug hunt <kenvandine_wk> great <davidbarth> kenvandine_wk: ah, now that its created i can also change it with konversation; previoulsy it did not work <njpatel> maybe we should stop using #dx now <kenvandine_wk> yeah <kenvandine_wk> well <kenvandine_wk> set the topic there directing folks over here <davidbarth> +1 <njpatel> sure <jens-25621> Is there any documents available that explains the idea? I don't quite get the point, except saving panel space. <kenvandine_wk> one sec <kenvandine_wk> https://edge.launchpad.net/indicator-applet <kenvandine_wk> i guess that isn't a great discription <kenvandine_wk> but it is a central point for human to human interaction <kenvandine_wk> so things that might need your attention <jens-25621> Ok, thanks <tedg> jens-25621: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MessagingMenu/ <jens-25621> Great! <kenvandine_wk> tedg: thanks... that is better than i came up with <kenvandine_wk> perhaps we should post a link to a wiki page that talks more about the projects ayatana is working on <tedg> Probably should link that from the page you sent. <kenvandine_wk> in the topic that is <tedg> davidbarth: Perhaps you could make the Ayatana project in LP a "project group" (I don't know how to do that) and then we can make the other projects part of it. Kinda like how Bazaar and LP itself work. <james_w> I believe you ask an admin to do that by filing a question at https://answers.launchpad.net/launchpad <davidbarth> james_w: i had the lists.canonical.com list setup initially, but it seems that a launchpad list is better <davidbarth> james_w: especially for people with multiple emails <james_w> did I put the wrong link in the email? <davidbarth> james_w: i've opened the team to remove the restrictions <davidbarth> james_w: yes ;) but that's my fault <davidbarth> james_w: i had the first list setup before <davidbarth> james_w: i would just like to make sure i have the right launchpad setting, ie <davidbarth> james_w: the list should be moderated like ubuntu-devel, but apart from that, everybody should be free to join <davidbarth> james_w: is there some after-post moderation feature in LP <davidbarth> james_w: or do i need to reapply the "moderated team" setting in LP <james_w> I'm not sure I'm afraid <davidbarth> hmm, i need a launchpad guy then ;) <james_w> I'll follow up on the mailing list <davidbarth> james_w: hold on, i will post more information once i'm sure the lp setup is ok <james_w> thanks * tedg really wants "debuild" to show an animation of a fairy loosing it's wings if I forget to do an ./autogen.sh first! So much time lost by forgetting that. <kenvandine_wk> hehe <tedg> So when I use g_dgettext do I still need to have the string with a _() around it? <nealmcb> https://launchpad.net/ayatana and perhaps that MessagingMenu link or the like should probably go in the topic here. Or something more general, with faqs etc. <nealmcb> Will the launchpad tabs for code, bugs, translations, answers for ayatana be used, or will the specific code project be used for that stuff e.g. notify-osd? If the former, you might want to delete them for now to avoid confusing folks <nealmcb> oops - I mean "if the latter" <doctormo> hey tedg, what's with the new name? <tedg> doctormo: We're trying to change it quickly to hide from the community ;) <doctormo> tedg: heh <njpatel> tedg: devhelp seems to indicate that _() should be used instead of g_dgettext <doctormo> Way to go, someone announced it on the ubuntu-devel mailing list. :-P <tedg> doctormo: No, the goal is to have something "bigger" for everything that we're doing. Makes it so that the individual projects can have sensible names :) <tedg> njpatel: We're on #ubuntu-desktop with the question now :) * njpatel hops to #ubuntu-desktop <doctormo> tedg: sounds good, I'll hang around just to read, there's bound to be interesting stuff. <tedg> doctormo: Oh, no, now we're going to have to call in the black helicopters to erase the memories of everyone that reads that list! What a pain. :) <doctormo> tedg: So apart from the osd-notif, what are the other projects? <nealmcb> doctormo: more hints at https://launchpad.net/ayatana <doctormo> Ta lov <doctormo> nealmcb: Do you guys need some branding? or are you going in house? <nealmcb> I'm not one of "you guys" - just curious bystander <nealmcb> doctormo: "ta lov"? <james_w> I know Ubuntu is known for brown, but "outhouse" graphics might be going a bit far <nealmcb> lol <nealmcb> james_w: The proper term is "organic" :) <james_w> heh <doctormo> nealmcb: I thought that was what we all were, curious bystanders... <tedg> doctormo: The only other one is http://launchpad.net/indicator-applet <tedg> doctormo: Lots of patches for apps right now though. We should find a place to centralize them. <njpatel> we need desktop-wide text-entry completion <njpatel> something that effects every gtk-entry <njpatel> then my keyboard would survive another couple of years <doctormo> njpatel: that needs hinting, or some form of text box typing... otherwise you'd get a mess <njpatel> maybe so, but someone should do it :) <doctormo> njpatel: someone? hang on my cat's trying to jump out of the window... <njpatel> :-) * tedg will miss doctormo's cat, but is glad that he's working on text entry completion. <doctormo> tedg: I'm working on user data systems, "someone" can work on text entry completion ;-) <tedg> Hmm, I liked your cat more than I like user data systems... ;) <doctormo> tedg: The doctor's cat is not an centralised advanced technoledgy. * tedg laughs knowingly as that's exactly what doctormo's cat wants him to believe. <doctormo> We projected a 1929 cartoon on the wall the other day, that cat kept on trying to bat boe-peep's school teacher. silly cat. <doctormo> I hope he doesn't do that when we show the chaplin. <doctormo> tedg: Re the messaging indicator applet, I think it's a usability problem to lump messages to you with messages to others that you got because of some other reason (bcc, mailing list etc) <doctormo> It'd be better to seperate those out, and I'm hoping it'll be thread aware. <tedg> doctormo: Well, that depends largely on the evolution plugin. In Evo it's actually surprisingly hard to get that information. The goal is to make it "mailbox" aware so that you can filter it that way. That's talked about in http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MessagingMenu <doctormo> Oh I'm going to be so happy to put EDS out to pasture. damn that thing. :-) <tedg> EDS doesn't do mail. <doctormo> Isn't that the backend store? <doctormo> Or is EDS just for calendars and contacts? <tedg> EDS is just for calendars, contacts and I believe notes. <tedg> Camel is a library, but it does the mail stuff. <tedg> I don't think EDS will go away, but I'm excited about the DBus merge. <mpt> davidbarth, maybe you could ask the LP admins to change it <doctormo> tedg: yes me too, at last I'll be able to use it as a data source for compatability :-) * MacSlow -> capoeira <njpatel> http://johnnyjacob.wordpress.com/2009/04/07/makespace-plugin-for-gnome-evolution/ is nice <njpatel> could use it for netbooks <njpatel> I can imagine it would be a bit annoying in the long run, through <james_w> having something like the KDE 4 menu for that might save some of the annoyance <james_w> so you have faster access to the directories that are closer to the one you are in <james_w> have you seen the proposed new netbook interface for evolution? <james_w> I can't remember the name now <james_w> ah, anjal <kenvandine_wk> i started to package anjal :) <kenvandine_wk> but got busy <james_w> cool, next cycle :-) <kenvandine_wk> yeah :) <kenvandine_wk> it requires patches to evolution <njpatel> i tried to build it but couldn't get it working <njpatel> pretty nice though <james_w> anyone familiar with dbus-glib? <njpatel> james_w: what part exactly :) <james_w> I'm trying to chain two calls together <james_w> and I want to pass user_data that is used when the second call completes <james_w> (using the async functions) <james_w> but the first call seems to free the user_data on completion <james_w> hmm, maybe NULL for the first free_func will prevent that <njpatel> hmm, it shouldn't touch user_data <njpatel> james_w: yes :) <james_w> let me try <doctormo> That sounds like a scary thought, this is in C right? <james_w> yeah <tedg> james_w: I think that you need to annotate the XML file to note that the data shouldn't be free'd. <james_w> it's not going over the bus though <james_w> I wouldn't have thought that the XML would matter <tedg> james_w: Yes, you're annotating how the dbus-glib bindings are built for you. <james_w> plus it appears to work with NULL as the free_func :-) <njpatel> if you don't add the free_func, then the user_data should remain allocated <tedg> Oh, this is using it directly, not with generate API functions? <james_w> yeah <njpatel> not sure, james_w want to pastebin if it doesn't work? <james_w> well, the segfault has now gone, and I get the second call, so I'm happy for now, thanks :-) <njpatel> segfaults not happening is always good :) <james_w> http://people.ubuntu.com/~jamesw/nautilus-packagekit.diff <doctormo> james_w: How do you do that? upload data to your person? <james_w> doctormo: sorry? <doctormo> No wait, my mistake, thought that was launchpad <hyperair> say.. when will libindicate develop a libindicate-bin? * hyperair thinks libindicate in an irssi script would be a good idea <james_w> it's tougher than libnotify <james_w> you have to persist for as long as the indicator <tedg> I guess you could build one that took unix signals... that's be a little convoluted, but possible. <james_w> you could have one that just read commands from stdin <james_w> easy to get wrong <tedg> Heh, probably a better question would be, when is irssi going to get DBus support? ;) <james_w> they want it remote as well <james_w> and idea I had was write a dbus service that took a well known name on the session bus, and had methods like "CreateServer", "CreateIndicator" and the like <james_w> and did them for you <tedg> Heh, well, you *could* tunnel dbus... okay, I'm going to take my medicine and get off the crazy train ;) <james_w> they claim they are going to make it work over tcp or something one day :-) <tedg> james_w: You could really do that with DBus introspection. It'd be interesting. <james_w> one day... <james_w> I don't need it for the apps I use luckily <james_w> urgh, indicators in xchat is going to be hard <james_w> well, good ones at least <ScottK> So how does one subscribe to the mailing list? <james_w> ScottK: it's moved to launchpad <james_w> you join ~ayatana and opt to subscribe <ScottK> So I have to join a team to talk on a list? <james_w> AIUI <ScottK> I guess it's so. <ScottK> That's sufficiently non-intuitive that it might be useful for someone to let people know. <james_w> yes <ScottK> james_w: Thanks for letting me know. <james_w> David said he was checking everything and would then reply to the list <james_w> it may be in the moderation queue * ScottK nods <james_w> (the list being ubuntu-devel@) <ScottK> Right #ayatana 2009-04-08 * mrooney gives everyone a wave-a-rooney <eeejay> hi <eeejay> what does this channel do? <njpatel> eeejay: this is the main channel for dx now, not #dx <njpatel> we're trying to get people here, but can't change the topic in #dx :) <eeejay> njpatel: ah cool, so all the directx and opendx hackers are hanging out here? <eeejay> ;) <njpatel> hehe :) <jens-25621> I wrote some feedback for you at: https://answers.launchpad.net/indicator-applet/+question/66834 <james_w> jens-25621: hi, there is a /Comments page on the wiki that you could leave your feedback on <james_w> I'm not sure which they would prefer <jens-25621> I could't do that, because I don't have the right to change the page <james_w> the /Comments page? <jens-25621> mm * MacSlow -> lunch * popey pats mpt <mpt> woof * popey wonders if mpt is bored of "that" bug report yet :) <mpt> popey, oh, you could tell? :-) <tedg> jcastro: Sorry, I was on a call. <tedg> jcastro: I'm just saying that people aren't in the mood to commit to more this week :) <jcastro> tedg: oh no worries <jcastro> I'll just keep bugging you until you capitulate <tedg> jcastro: I should probably talk about indicating in applications.... not sure exactly if I can do that for a full hour, but I can try :) <jcastro> tedg: this is openweek so it'd be more user-targetted stuff, like how to use things <jcastro> save the "how to use libindicate" for developerweek please! <kenvandine_wk> tedg: we will find a way to indicate to you if you become boring <tedg> jcastro: Hmm, okay. Users... are those the people who comment on bug reports? ;) <jcastro> I know it's hard for you ted <popey> tedg: http://meow.popey.com <tedg> I am trying to think of something that would be interesting to users though. The difficult parts of the messaging indicator are all non-user issues. <tedg> popey: I have no clue why you sent me a picture of a cat, but it's a cute one :) <kenvandine_wk> tedg: well... i think an introduction to the messaging indicator for the users would be great <kenvandine_wk> although, i would be happy to do that too <kenvandine_wk> seems there are lots of folks that still don't get it <kenvandine_wk> and i do love talking about it :) <kenvandine_wk> tedg: so if you don't want to talk about how users use the MI... and how it affects them... i can do that... but of course you get dibs <tedg> kenvandine_wk: Sure, you should talk about it. I think that'd be cool. And the session will probably be sometime reasonable US time so I can be there :) <kenvandine_wk> ok <tedg> jcastro: Is someone going to talk about software updates and the changes there? <tedg> I can volunteer to take the slings and arrows there if need be. <kenvandine_wk> jcastro: ok, i signed up :) <jcastro> tedg: that sounds great! <tedg> mpt: Do you want to talk about the update-manager changes in Open Week? <mpt> What's Open Week? <tedg> mpt: Hour long slots to talk about various user facing issues. <tedg> mpt: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Prep <mpt> hm <mpt> Neither that page nor the main UbuntuOpenWeek page seem to mention who the target audience is <kenvandine_wk> jcastro: you should define the audience on the wiki page <mpt> jcastro, perhaps explain a bit more what the purpose is, e.g. is it to excite users (or at least the sort of users who use IRC), or attract new Ubuntu contributors, or what <jcastro> mpt: I was just getting to that <jcastro> that was missing on the boilerplate <jcastro> that's usually on the announcement <mpt> ok <jcastro> kenvandine_wk: feel free to claim a time slot in the grid * mpt reads jcastro's e-mail announcement :-) <mpt> tedg, after reading that, I don't think talking about the software update changes would be relevant to attracting new contributors <tedg> mpt: Okay, don't read that then ;) <tedg> mpt: I think that it is a user face issue, and one that would probably benefit from being discussed in a "lecture type" format because we could go through it all, where as everyone has looked at minute pieces otherwise. <tedg> user facing that is. * mpt puts another 10 minutes of his life into bug 332945 <popey> :( <kenvandine_wk> bratsche: do you have a version of your bluez-gnome patch for gnome-bluetooth? <kenvandine_wk> upstream requested it... so i guess that means they will accept this patch :) <bratsche> No, but I'd be glad to make one after the release. <kenvandine_wk> great <kenvandine_wk> please do... it would probably be rather trivial now since it was just forked <kenvandine_wk> then upstream has to maintain it :) <bratsche> Yeah, true. <bratsche> :) <bratsche> Is there a bug open for it upstream yet? <bratsche> If there is, just CC me on it or assign it to me or something. <bratsche> My bugzilla is heatherjohnson@example.com <kenvandine_wk> bratsche: no bug... but an email <bratsche> Okay, I'll file it. <kenvandine_wk> right... gnome-bluetooth is in bz? <bratsche> I don't know yet. :) <bratsche> Do you still know the Ubuntu bug# for this? <bratsche> I think I found it.. <bratsche> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/bluez-gnome/+bug/337219 right? <bratsche> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=578396 <kenvandine_wk> yeah <kenvandine_wk> thx <kenvandine_wk> bratsche: i will point the guy that requested it at that bug <kenvandine_wk> thx <kenvandine_wk> oh... he did that via launchpad :) <tedg> bratsche: How does the removing the escaping in pidgin-libnotify effect notification-daemon? <bratsche> tedg: I'm thinking it's probably a good idea, because then we can keep all this filtering shit in one heatherjohnson@example.com. <tedg> bratsche: So should I unmerge your patch? <bratsche> Do you have the bug# handy that it came from? I forgot what it looks like now. <bratsche> Oh oh, the one that I just did? <bratsche> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pidgin-libnotify/+bug/356147 ? <tedg> bratsche: Yes. <bratsche> tedg: But then after unmerging you want to remove all the markup escaping right? <bratsche> Oh wait. <bratsche> You said how would it affect notification-daemon <bratsche> I keep getting confused because that's such a generic name that I'm still thinking notify-osd <bratsche> tedg: So actually, we may need to keep that. Perhaps we should ask mpt <tedg> bratsche: Yeah, I'm thinking that notification-daemon needs the escaping. <bratsche> Yeah I'm thinking so too. <tedg> So we can't remove it, or it'll break there. <tedg> So we have to handle it on the notify-osd side. <kenvandine_wk> eeejay: ping <bratsche> mpt around still? <bratsche> Err.. actually, nevermind.. not yet. :) <tedg> bratsche: So I should drop your non-escaping headers patch, right? <tedg> bratsche: In pidgin-libnotify <tedg> Sorry I keep asking, I just want to be sure - and I keep getting interrupted :) <maco> the "Joe&apos;s phone is online" thing? <tedg> maco: Yes. <bratsche> tedg: No, I think you should keep it. Because we want to keep escaping things to make pidgin-libnotify operate decently with notification-daemon, right? And this patch basically makes it so it only escapes body text, and not summary text.. right? <maco> is it possible to escape based on which is in use? <tedg> bratsche: It makes it so that we don't escape the header. <bratsche> I didn't test g_markup_escape_text() exactly yet, but the Pango markup escaping is fucking up certain things. <bratsche> tedg: Right, we should not be escaping the header. <tedg> bratsche: If we don't, then what does notification-daemon do with it? <bratsche> tedg: mpt was very clear about this, that the spec specifically says that the header/summary text should be as-is. So if applications are sending markup to the header, it's a bug in the application. <tedg> maco: It should be one standard... fixing one app means that all others are broken. notify-osd needs to be a drop in replacement for notification-daemon. <tedg> bratsche: Ah, okay. <maco> good point <bratsche> tedg: Dude, the Pango markup stuff is so broken. I've almost got a series of GRegex's to make this work. This is killing me. :) <bratsche> I didn't test g_markup_escape_text() in particular, but I'm going to have to remove the Pango markup escaping from notify-osd. <tedg> bratsche: Heh -- so glad I didn't get assigned that bug ;) <tedg> The Pango markup is a little weird, I don't get why it's so different. <maco> well hey i wanted to ask about when you have 1 person with 2 accounts and the same alias grouped in pidgin, if they sign on and have a multi-protocol client too (so both accounts come online) it says something like "Joe is online is online" but since they're grouped, i think it ought to be treated as one thing <bratsche> tedg: It's not finished yet, but check out this hotness: http://launchpadlibrarian.net/25059106/356659-1.diff <tedg> maco: That makes sense. We don't detect the grouped buddies at all though. It'd be a relatively big change at this point in the release cycle. <tedg> bratsche: Heh. Crazy. <bratsche> I've got one more to do next. <maco> something to mark down as a "would be nice for karmic"? <tedg> maco: Yes, a wishlist bug would be cool. <maco> kk <bratsche> tedg: For Karmic I'm thinking about trying to change Pango's markup parser to be more extensible. I need to talk to behdad about that, but it's something I was thinking about trying to do for a gtk+ feature I want to do anyway. * tedg thinks it was nice knowing the sane-bratsche <bratsche> I don't think it'll be that bad. <bratsche> The thing in gtk+ I was going to do was have GtkLabel support <a href> links. <bratsche> I already wrote extensible Pango attributes (so you could define a Link attribute that extends the Pango underline attribute, for example) <bratsche> Then to be able to extend the markup parser seems like it would be useful to go along with that. <tedg> Sounds good to me. I'm not sure where I'd use it, but I'm sure I'll figure out something :) <bratsche> Well, I think it might have made this html filtering stuff easier for notify-osd. <bratsche> Maybe not though. :) <eeejay> bratsche: man, i am glad you took the html filtering :) <bratsche> heh #ayatana 2009-04-09 <kenvandine_wk> eeejay: see my merge request? <vorian> oh brother <Hobbsee> hm? <vorian> this channel is not registered <tedg> vorian: How do we register it? <vorian> that's gonna be tricky :) * tedg is relatively new to this stuff. <vorian> tedg: first things is this, a group contact needs to be established * vorian gets another linky <vorian> http://freenode.net/group_registration.shtml <tedg> vorian: Okay, that makes sense. We're closely related to the Ubuntu folks. Does it make sense to put us under their contact, or to create another? <tedg> vorian: Or does that imply a namespace? <vorian> i would create another, but it is up to you all, and the #ubuntu IRC council <vorian> yeah, that would imply a namespace * vorian would stick with this one <tedg> vorian: Thanks for the information, I think that davidbarth would probably be a good contact, but he's asleep right now. <vorian> no problem <tedg> vorian: I'll send him a mail, and hopefully get this started tomorrow. <vorian> excellent <tedg> vorian: What should we do about #dx? Wait until this is registered? <vorian> there's not much that can be done about it <tedg> Can you set the topic to "everyone's moved to #ayatana" ? <tedg> So atleast people know we're not leaving them behind :) <vorian> what if a nintendo fan comes in, and thinks "cool, we moved!" <tedg> Then we'll work on making them a Ubuntu fan ;) <vorian> :) <tedg> Perhaps text like "If you're looking for the Ubuntu DX channel it is now #ayatana" <mpt> bratsche, notification-daemon treats title text verbatim too <mpt> Try it: notify-send "Joe's phone is online" "fish &amp; chips" <mpt> Compare with notify-send "Joe&apos;s phone is online" "fish &amp; chips" <mpt> notification-daemon renders the "&apos;" as "&apos;" <mpt> so, so should notify-osd. <davidbarth> eeejay: hi eitan <davidbarth> do you have the latest pidgin package (pidgin + indicator stuff)? * MacSlow -> lunch <eeejay> hey tedg! <tedg> Good morning eeejay <eeejay> tedg: kenvandine_wk: we need some quick decisions about the python bindings, eh? <tedg> eeejay: Yes. <tedg> kenvandine_wk: Did you get an initial upload sponsored? <kenvandine_wk> yes <kenvandine_wk> with the patch <eeejay> kenvandine_wk: patch that lets it build against 0.1.5? <kenvandine_wk> yes <eeejay> ah, cool <kenvandine_wk> eeejay: tedg has a branch that fixes some stuff that broke with 0.1.5 <kenvandine_wk> eeejay: and i have a merge request too <kenvandine_wk> think you can bring all that together and make a 0.0.3? <eeejay> kenvandine_wk: you bet.. <kenvandine_wk> eeejay: rock! <kenvandine_wk> thx <eeejay> kenvandine_wk: so this branch add some important dist files, bumps the version.. * eeejay looks <kenvandine_wk> yeah <kenvandine_wk> the last tarball had 0.0.1 in configure.ac <kenvandine_wk> but was a 0.0.2 tarball <eeejay> hehe <kenvandine_wk> also the COPYING files... we had some complaints in getting it reviewed about that <kenvandine_wk> since it is dual licensed <kenvandine_wk> so i did that <kenvandine_wk> as well as the files in tests <eeejay> kenvandine_wk: where does the build patch you made live? <kenvandine_wk> tedg's branch <kenvandine_wk> one sec * eeejay didn't know it is dual licensed <kenvandine_wk> it is in the source files :) <kenvandine_wk> i assumed you did that <kenvandine_wk> lp:~ted-gould/indicator-applet/python-bindings-dont-know-what-im-doing <eeejay> kenvandine_wk: doh! <tedg> eeejay: We had to do LGPL v2/3 because some apps can't link against one or the other. <eeejay> kenvandine_wk: tedg: ah.. phew, i thought i was just being sloppy <kenvandine_wk> hehe <kenvandine_wk> eeejay: i think merging my branch and tedgs into your's... then create a tarball <eeejay> tedg: i couldn't get your branch to work with listen-and-print.py, is it supposed to? <kenvandine_wk> eeejay: it would also be great if the tests files got installed as docs <tedg> eeejay: I didn't try that. I asked kenvandine_wk to check out Gwibber and Gajim. <tedg> eeejay: Probably I broke the listener interface. <eeejay> tedg: but they don't use the listener iface <tedg> I said in the branch name that I didn't know what I was doing ;) <eeejay> tedg: true, i guess you aren't liable then <kenvandine_wk> i tested the im example, gwibber and gajim <eeejay> kenvandine_wk: i updated trunk to work with 0.1.5 <eeejay> kenvandine_wk: without tedg's branch <kenvandine_wk> gajim actually only half works... but i think that is because the gajim guys changed my patch :) <tedg> eeejay: Do you see an easy thing that I broke? <kenvandine_wk> eeejay: ok... i tested it with tedg's changes <eeejay> tedg: you didn't break anything that was not broken already <tedg> eeejay: I was just trying to change to O instead of s and i for the various indicator struct pointers. <eeejay> tedg: but you failed to fix the listener iface :) <tedg> Does it make sense to mark it as broken for 0.0.3 then? <eeejay> tedg: yeah, that won't work. you obviously didn't know what you were doing ;) <eeejay> tedg: yes, it does * eeejay wrote about it extensively in the merge request <eeejay> https://code.launchpad.net/~ted-gould/indicator-applet/python-bindings-dont-know-what-im-doing/+merge/5366 <tedg> eeejay: Heh, hadn't gotten to that mail yet. <tedg> eeejay: Yes, everything you say there :) <kenvandine_wk> eeejay: hummm... it did work though :) <eeejay> kenvandine_wk: what worked? <tedg> eeejay: So without the boxing, could we have something reasonable that would link against 0.1.5? It seems so if we drop listener, right? <kenvandine_wk> tedg's code <eeejay> tedg: exactly <tedg> And the fact that you manually undid the enum, that would be "unpythonic" but work. <eeejay> kenvandine_wk: with gwibber and gajim? yeah, it should work with those <eeejay> kenvandine_wk: the listener interface is broken <kenvandine_wk> eeejay: ok... so it works fine for everything we know about now <eeejay> kenvandine_wk: which only matters if you are implementing a new indicator-applet-like app <kenvandine_wk> so not "awefule" <kenvandine_wk> aweful even <kenvandine_wk> but we should fix it <hyperair> does anybody know if Bug #345837 is reallly a duplicate of Bug #345296? <eeejay> tedg: the enum actually is not relevant, since the listener iface is broken <hyperair> their descriptions seem to show that the bugs really are different. <kenvandine_wk> eeejay: ok... so you already have these issues fixed? <eeejay> kenvandine_wk: yeah, we should keep the gwibber and gajim folks happy <tedg> eeejay: Except for the signal coming from the server to say that someone is interested, right? <tedg> eeejay: I think, interested_added and interest_removed both use the enum. <eeejay> tedg: which symbol does that? <tedg> I doubt that Gwibber or Gajim are using that though. * eeejay heatherjohnson@example.com <kenvandine_wk> eeejay: today is freeze... so if we are getting a fix in, lets do it real soon :) <eeejay> kenvandine_wk: okie dokes <tedg> hyperair: Seems odd to me too. MacSlow do you know if those bugs are dups ^^ <hyperair> tedg: it would be nice if that oen could get fixed before jaunty, because it's really annoying if you use media keys with banshee. <tedg> So, to summarize. If we go with my "don't know what I'm doing branch" and make a 0.0.3 we'll link against 0.1.5 but the listener interface will be broken. And we've got a plan to make that better for 0.0.4. Is that a good summary eeejay kenvandine_wk? * eeejay moves swiftly <eeejay> tedg: the relevant changes from your branch have been in trunk for a while * eeejay acts swiftly <kenvandine_wk> eeejay: well how hard is fixing the listener interface? <tedg> eeejay: Heh, okay. Are you going to spin a 0.0.3 then or should I? <kenvandine_wk> it would be nice to make a 0.0.3 with that <kenvandine_wk> tedg: cause what we have now is as good as that... no need to spin a release :) <eeejay> tedg: let me get the branch in shape, we could all agree, and i will cut a release <kenvandine_wk> tedg: 0.0.2 was uploaded with the patch from your branch <tedg> kenvandine_wk: Yeah, I'd like to get something cleaner than what I did if possible. <kenvandine_wk> tedg: yeah... but i am hoping we can fix the other issue at the same time :) <tedg> kenvandine_wk: I'm not a python fan, and I think it shows :) <kenvandine_wk> hehe * kenvandine_wk would chose python over C any day... but lets not have that debate * tedg is going to make a T-shirt: "You can take my semicolon from my cold dead hands." :) * eeejay rejects tedg's branch because of his hateful comments * hyperair kills tedg and takes his semicolon <eeejay> kenvandine_wk: would you mind testing trunk one last time before i upload the tarball? <hyperair> tedg: i believe it's s/take/pry/ <kenvandine_wk> eeejay: certainly <tedg> hyperair: Heh, need to spend more time at NRA rallies... research... <kenvandine_wk> eeejay: is it ready now? <eeejay> kenvandine_wk: yup! <eeejay> kenvandine_wk: lp:~indicator-applet-developers/indicator-applet/indicate-python <- to avoid confusion <hyperair> tedg: ? <tedg> hyperair: I believe that the guns phrase that is taken from is an NRA one. <kenvandine_wk> testing nwo <eeejay> i think charlton heston would say that at NRA rallies <hyperair> tedg: no idea. i see it everywhere <eeejay> or michael moore lead me to believe that <eeejay> kenvandine_wk: not so smooth? <Hobbsee> gah. Did this latest version of pidgin stuff get tested? <Hobbsee> i'm now getting pidgin segfaulting. <kenvandine_wk> eeejay: sorry... phone rang <kenvandine_wk> testing now <eeejay> kenvandine_wk: phew, thought you were in debugging craze <tedg> Hobbsee: pidgin-libnotify? There is a big pidgin bug with Jabber right now. <kenvandine_wk> eeejay: not good <eeejay> kenvandine_wk: crasher? <Hobbsee> tedg: oh, there was another change there. I assumed it was notify killing it. <kenvandine_wk> File "/usr/lib/python2.6/dist-packages/indicate/__init__.py", line 26, in <module> <kenvandine_wk> from _indicate import * <kenvandine_wk> ImportError: /usr/lib/python2.6/dist-packages/indicate/_indicate.so: undefined symbol: indicate_server_show_indicator_to_user <tedg> Hobbsee: It seems to be related to gstreamer -- I don't really get how though. <kenvandine_wk> eeejay: ^^ <Hobbsee> tedg: oh, fun. <eeejay> kenvandine_wk: checking now.. <Hobbsee> tedg: thanks. Wish I knew how to disable the jabber bit! <tedg> Hobbsee: I don't think there's a way, but if you uninstall one of the gstreamer plugin packs, I think bad, it gets better. <Hobbsee> tedg: thanks <eeejay> kenvandine_wk: i don't have that symbol in my version, are you certain you installed it in /usr/lib/python2.6/dist-packages/indicate? <kenvandine_wk> yes <kenvandine_wk> i did a make dist <kenvandine_wk> then build the package from that tarball <kenvandine_wk> let me compare files <eeejay> kenvandine_wk: if you didn't give it /usr as the prefix, it should be in /usr/local <kenvandine_wk> oh <kenvandine_wk> humm <kenvandine_wk> eeejay: i installed it from a package <kenvandine_wk> it didn't use my tarball <kenvandine_wk> hang on <eeejay> you scared me for a moment <eeejay> i usually give it some arbitrary prefix, and set PYTHONPATH to that <kenvandine_wk> i like testing with packages <kenvandine_wk> i am a nut that way <eeejay> heh <hyperair> davidbarth: you marked bug #345837 as a dupicate of #345296 right? are you sure it's really a duplicate? <hyperair> davidbarth: the descriptions seem rather different. <davidbarth> hyperair: hi, let me check again <hyperair> davidbarth: alright <davidbarth> hyperair: you're right this one is not a duplicate <davidbarth> it is the issue with the close_notification_handler <hyperair> hmm <hyperair> haven't looked at notify-osd's code yet <Hobbsee> tedg: speaking of pidgin, has anyone tested the notifications on dist-upgraded machines? I found some strangeness, before i wiped my ~/.purple directory, and started again <hyperair> but it would be good if the priority for this bug could be raised a little <davidbarth> but there was anohter bug I thought with banshee/rhythmbox bubbles crashing into synchronous ones <hyperair> it's very annoying, and very visible when you use banshee with media keys <davidbarth> hyperair: the problem has been fixed (sort of) by not sending confirmation bubbles from gnome-settings-daemon <hyperair> davidbarth: rhythmbox doesnt have this issue, because it updates the existing bubble rather than deleting the old and spawning a new <davidbarth> hyperair: from an architecture point of view, that was not great <hyperair> hmm. why not? <davidbarth> so the bug should not occur anymore <davidbarth> even if the corner-case still exists in the layout code of n-osd <hyperair> davidbarth: it won't occur as often, but it'll still occur. <tedg> Hobbsee: I haven't tried that specifically. Though I haven't noticed any bugs related to something like that. What was the weirdness? <hyperair> davidbarth: e.g. when i adjust my volume when pidgin fires up a notification <hyperair> davidbarth: and there are multiple <davidbarth> hyperair: ah, and pidgin /force/ closes the bubbles? <kenvandine_wk> eeejay: ok... it works <kenvandine_wk> the listener still shouldn't work right? <Hobbsee> tedg: new messages in pidgin not showing up in the envelope at all (although it would show up most of the time with the little black notification) <eeejay> kenvandine_wk: sweet! <hyperair> davidbarth: you don't need to force close the bubbles for it to happen i think <eeejay> kenvandine_wk: right <eeejay> kenvandine_wk: pushing a tarball now <kenvandine_wk> thx <hyperair> davidbarth: but okay, supposing you change your volume while banshee's switching songs, you'd get that. <Hobbsee> tedg: ie, if you missed the black notification, there was absolutely no indication of a new message <davidbarth> hyperair: the bug with update was fixed, as well as other potential visual collisions between sync and async bubbles <tedg> Hobbsee: That might have been related to a couple of bugs that we just fixed in indicator-messages, they had the possibility of getting lost. <davidbarth> it's in the lates tarball of today (not yesterday) <davidbarth> brb <tedg> Hobbsee: Hopefully those are fixed, I'm curious why removing .purple would solve that. <tedg> Hobbsee: Honestly, I'm hoping they were unrelated :) <Hobbsee> tedg: I'm not sure. I tested it a few days ago, removed ~/.purple, set up the user accounts again, and it worked fine. <hyperair> davidbarth: i see, then it should be considered fixed then =\ <Hobbsee> tedg: might be worth trying to find some people to test that <eeejay> tedg: i don't think i have perms to register a new release in the 0.1 indicator-applet series <bratsche> Oh nice, I think this new text filter works well. <tedg> eeejay: Okay, made it: https://edge.launchpad.net/indicator-applet/0.1/python0.0.3 <tedg> eeejay: Can you add files? <eeejay> tedg: yep, thanks <eeejay> tedg: kenvandine_wk: released <tedg> eeejay: Yeah! Great! <kenvandine_wk> great <kenvandine_wk> i already subscribed motu-release :) <kenvandine_wk> bug 358483 <eeejay> sweet <kenvandine_wk> asac and james_w are looking at it <kenvandine_wk> eeejay: mind filing a bug about the listener so we can track it? <eeejay> kenvandine_wk: yup, will do <kenvandine_wk> thx <kenvandine_wk> please subscribe me too :) <maco> away <maco> whoops #ayatana 2009-04-10 <davidbarth> eeejay: hey eitan, i'm here <eeejay> hey davidbarth, no release meeting? <davidbarth> eeejay: i have a thing to see with ted and can call you just after <davidbarth> postponed 1h apparently <eeejay> davidbarth: no problem <eeejay> hey tedg, the gtypified branch is in a good state, i am not putting in a merge request, because I don't know if it would be appropriate now post freeze <eeejay> tedg: but you should peak, it is really cool <tedg> eeejay: I don't think it would be, but let me make a 0.2 branch... <eeejay> tedg: peek that is, not peak <rickspencer3> anyone from the design team here today? <tedg> Uh, fail. OO.o spread sheet has the cell marking move differently than the column highlights. There's a noticeable delay. #ayatana 2010-04-01 <qense> jcastro: bug #550140 (and others) are the result of the practise of using a regular MenuItem for showing an application in AppInd, not a checkbox. You can only make the application visible with those entries, but not hide them. However, I've always used checkboxes so people can hide the window as well and can see whether the window is being shown in case they've lost it. What should we do? If we keep following the first option we should mark the bug I <qense> mentioned as Won't Fix. Personally I would go for checkboxes. <ubot4> Launchpad bug 550140 in nautilus (Ubuntu) (and 1 other project) "File Operations does not Hide when Clicked (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/550140 <qense> tedg: What do you think of bug 552920? Do you agree with the proposed solution: a delay? <ubot4> Launchpad bug 552920 in indicator-application (Ubuntu) "Autoexpanding indicator menus hurt usability (affects: 1) (heat: 14)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/552920 <tedg> qense: Could be interesting, but I think that's a GTK bug. We don't want to special case that in the indicators. <tedg> bratsche: What do you think? ^^ I thought there was *some* delay already? <bratsche> I guess I'm confused by what you mean by auto-expanding. <bratsche> Does that just mean opening the menu? <tedg> bratsche: Yeah. Basically too quickly. <tedg> bratsche: Did you see the image in the attachement? <tedg> (assume I spelled that correctly) <bratsche> Right <bratsche> Okay, so gtk+ has something internal called (I think) a stay-up triangle.. but as far as I know, it's only used when dealing with submenus from a menu. <bratsche> But try to envision a menu with several menuitems, and the first menuitem has a submenu with several menuitems. Your mouse is currently over the top menuitem of the parent menu and the submenu from it is open to the right. <bratsche> Now when you move the mouse toward say the middle of that submenu, you'll probably mouse-over a menuitem below the current one in the parent menu.. <bratsche> But there are two things that can keep it from becoming the active menuitem.. a timer, and this stay-up triangle. <bratsche> Anyway, we should think about this some. Indicator icons are small enough that in the case of indicator-sound, going to all the trouble of duplicating this stay-up triangle might be more trouble than it's worth. Judging by the screenshot in qense's bug, the stay-up triangle would cover most the majority of the neighboring indicator icon anyway, so maybe a simple timer would be enough. <salty-horse> hello! <salty-horse> is there any reason why the icons in the indicator applet are so fat and spacious? they use a lot of whitespace around the icon, which causes big gaps between every two icons <salty-horse> also, the changes to gwibber's menu mean that if I don't like the indicator applet, I can't have a regular gwibber icon in the notifications area <qense> bratsche: I'll confirm the bug. <qense> tedg: Are you in Bug Control, or otherwise capable of viewing private bug reports? <tedg> qense: I used to be... <tedg> qense: Let's try one :) <qense> tedg: bug 541946 is a private <ubot4> qense: Bug 541946 on http://launchpad.net/bugs/541946 is private <qense> tedg: By the way, someone blogged against using GET_PRIVATE() methods, he says they are inefficient: http://blogs.gnome.org/jjardon/2010/03/30/improve-performance-use-priv-instead-get_priv-macros/ <qense> tedg: Do you agree? <tedg> qense: Yeah, we've been slowly converting them. I'm not sure it's enough to worry about though. <tedg> Yeah, I can see that bug. <qense> good <qense> I mentioned the GET_PRIVATE thing because there is a crash report in bug 545030 where indicator-application-service crashes on such a function. <ubot4> qense: Bug 545030 on http://launchpad.net/bugs/545030 is private <qense> tedg: and another crash also happens with a *priv that was obtained using GET_PRIVATE <qense> Could it be that the macro is a bit unreliable? <tedg> qense: It's not really as much a macro as it is a function call. <tedg> qense: Really, if the objects is there -- it shouldn't fail. <qense> tedg: So somehow the private object wasn't there during those crashes? <tedg> qense: The private section isn't an object really, it's just a memory region. <funkyHat> Is there a plan to differentiate between new mail and new instant message in the messaging menu icon? <funkyHat> As it stands I either find myself often clicking the icon to see if it's an IM, only to be annoyed that it's only an email, or not clicking and then later finding I've missed an IM <vish> funkyHat: i'v been mentioning this since the beginning ;0 kinda pointless having an envelope for IM , mail , tweet and probably even rss o.0 #ayatana 2010-04-02 <funkyHat> I suppose I should ask at a more sensible time of day â¡) <tgpraveen12> n <tedg> bratsche: Do you have any thoughts on bug 553918 ? It seems like we're grabbing keyboard focus, but Esc isn't giving it up. <ubot4> Launchpad bug 553918 in indicator-session (Ubuntu) (and 1 other project) "Keyboard shortcut usage blocks keyboard and other menus (affects: 1)" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/553918 * bratsche clicks <tedg> What's weird to me is that hitting escape is odd on my session, but it's really bad in the guest session. <bratsche> Weird. <tedg> bratsche: I wonder if it's something with the panel window not having focus. Like the menu closing is trying to give it to the panel, but that's not really possible? <bratsche> tedg: The fact that he says you have to click twice to open the menu makes me think there is still a popup window somewhere on the screen, like an empty menu or something. <bratsche> Or maybe I'm misunderstanding what his comment says. <bratsche> (comment #1, that is) <tedg> bratsche: Hmm, yeah. I got it in a state once where it would highlight the "Applications" menu when I moused over it. That's why I was figuring it was something with teh panel window. <bratsche> tedg: That's also related to some fuckedupedness of compiz, because I've seen stuff like that happen as well. <tedg> bratsche: I thought that too, but my guest session defaults to metacity. <bratsche> For some reason compiz seems to occasionally go into focus-follows-mouse mode for me. * tedg likes focus-follows-mouse :) <bratsche> I'd like it better if it only happened when I explicitly enabled it. :) <tedg> Hmm, the same thing doesn't happen with Alt+F1 for the applications menu. <bratsche> Oh wait. <bratsche> I'm reproducing this here without doing C-s <bratsche> Oh wait, nevermind. <bratsche> I think that was just update-manager slowing down my system. <tedg> bratsche: Okay, in the panel they subclass the menu bar. <tedg> Here's the code that I think might be interesting but I don't understand :) <tedg> 437 menu_shell = GTK_MENU_SHELL (menubar); <tedg> 438 if (!menu_shell->active) { <tedg> 439 gtk_grab_add (GTK_WIDGET (menu_shell)); <tedg> 440 menu_shell->have_grab = TRUE; <tedg> 441 menu_shell->active = TRUE; <tedg> 442 } <tedg> 443 gtk_menu_shell_select_item (menu_shell, <tedg> 444 gtk_menu_get_attach_widget (menu)); <tedg> That's when popping up a menu. <bratsche> But we're using a menubar as well aren't we? Inside indicator-applet <bratsche> Or is that code from the subclass of menubar? <tedg> bratsche: That code is from the subclass. <bratsche> ted: Okay, so that code is actually just copied from _gtk_menu_shell_activate(). I think we're already doing the same thing. <tedg> bratsche: Why did they copy it then? Seems like
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