#ayatana 2009-07-01 <macvr> does anyone know how to *remove* a project from a bug? since there are so many papercuts being reported and reassigned , its almost creating spam <hyperair> macvr: you can only mark a project as invalid. <hyperair> no way to remove it <macvr> hyperair: another easy way i find is re-assign it , but sometimes I'm too lazy to identify the project ;p <hyperair> macvr: you can only reassign a source packge in a distro, but not an actual project =\ <macvr> yup <macvr> hyperair: well the prob is there are so many *1 line feature requests* , after a time its like why bother when the OP doesnt even take the time to complete his own requests! <hyperair> heheh leave it to the bug triagers to feel the pain of stupid bug reportrs =p <hyperair> reporters* <hyperair> i just request for information and mark every damn thing as incomplete <SiDi> macvr: you sleep from times to times ? <macvr> SiDi: nope ;p <hyperair> it's 1pm over there anyways. not bedtime is it? <SiDi> its 9 AM here. But the fact is that macvr is on when i go bed and on when i wake up, and i dont sleep much, hyperair <hyperair> SiDi: i'm sure he sleeps when you're not looking ;) <macvr> SiDi: well , i just leave my laptop running <hyperair> SiDi: i think many people think the same about me. <macvr> SiDi: its been on since the last 3 yrs ;p , rarely switch it off , if it had a mouth it would beg for mercy <hyperair> D= <hyperair> why do you even use a laptop instead of a desktop then? <macvr> hyperair: i find it easy , rather than a desktop , can lie down ;p too lazy to sit <hyperair> macvr: one of my exclassmates had a cpu and monitor next to his bed, with the keyboard and mouse on the bed. =p <hyperair> granted, his case was because he really didn't have anywhere else to put it but hey it meant he could lie down and use it. =p <macvr> but he cant carry it around , can he ;p <hyperair> hmm good point =p <hyperair> my notebook's kinda grounded as well due to the attached monitor =p <macvr> i make sure not to get used to dual monitors... <hyperair> i only use this set up when i'm home <hyperair> ~3 months or so then i'm off again <macvr> it just becomes weird if its not attached ! <hyperair> hehehe <hyperair> well it takes some getting used to but it's fine =\ <hyperair> on the other hand, when i'm using a dual monitor setup, i have to make sure not to trigger the compiz ezoom plugin when the cursor is near place where the two monitors join <hyperair> the cursor starts to jump between the two monitors <hyperair> very irritating <hyperair> i contacted the ezoom plugin author about it.. last year i think. no news =\ <hyperair> i mean he did say he would work on it, but i haven't heard from him since <macvr> ah ... almost forgot about all the compiz probs! * MacSlow -> lunch <SiDi> tedg: ping ? <tedg> SiDi: Hey, I'm on a call right now... I can answer in a few minutes. <SiDi> okey <tedg> SiDi: Sorry about that, what's up? <SiDi> tedg: hello. i wanted to ask you if it was possible to split libindicate and indicator-applet in LP so that libindicate can be built without indicator-applet's specific dependencies <tedg> SiDi: Uhm, in theory. But, I'm not sure why that'd make a difference. It seems like that only effects Soyuz, right? <SiDi> tedg: its actually because someone (Mark__T) wrote an indicator-applet-xfce <SiDi> and it depends on libindicate 2 <SiDi> (and my karmic vm doesnt have enough room anymore to install all indicator-applet's dependencies :$ - but anyway it'd be cool for the xfce people to can easily test the xfce applet if you could split the lib and the gnome applet) <tedg> SiDi: Okay. I can look at doing that, they kinda grew organically to be in the same repo. There's no technical reason to have them together. <SiDi> tedg: great :) <tedg> I'll make kenvandine go through the NEW process of having different source packages ;) <SiDi> kenvandine: sorry :P * tedg owes kenvandine lots of beer next week :) <kenvandine> :) <kenvandine> new source package... that is a ton of work :/ <kenvandine> SiDi, i don't see why that matters? <kenvandine> you don't have to install indicator-applet... just libindicate <kenvandine> actually i guess it shouldn't be that much work... since it was already in main... just being split <kenvandine> can someone file a bug about that and assign it to me? <SiDi> kenvandine: i cant build it :/ <SiDi> i need to download all of indicator-applet's deps for building libindicate <kenvandine> in theory you shouldn't need to build it :) <SiDi> i need the trunk one for the xfce applet :) <kenvandine> we just need to get it in main <SiDi> is there a deb for libindicate 0.2 yet ? <tedg> SiDi: I don't think I've put one out there. But the packaging branch is up-to-date and should build. <tedg> kenvandine: I think it's something we should do anyway as when GNOME 3 comes around the applet part will have to die anyway. <tedg> I'd imagine all the bonobo deps will fall out of main rather quickly. Or perhaps I'm just being hopeful :) <kenvandine> tedg, yeah... i guess the first step is to split it into a separate branch right? <kenvandine> the sources is what matters for SiDi <tedg> kenvandine: Hmm, yeah. Do you think they should be separate LP projects? <tedg> It seems like a 1:1 of source packages to LP projects makes things easier. <tedg> But, I don't work on the distro anymore ;) <kenvandine> tedg, nah... i am happy having them in one project <kenvandine> just split it in bzr <kenvandine> and we can create releases for each independantly <tedg> Okay. I'm not going to do that today. But it'll be a good activity when I can't sleep on the plane. <tedg> It doesn't take a lot of thought, but takes time :) <kenvandine> :) <kenvandine> cool <kenvandine> tedg, how is the empathy stuff coming? <kenvandine> i plan on doing my part of it on the plane :) <kenvandine> unless i find time before then <tedg> kenvandine: Apparently there is going to be an Empathy/Telepathy hackfest session at Desktop Summit. <kenvandine> yup <tedg> kenvandine: I was thinking about doing it then. <kenvandine> ok <tedg> kenvandine: Then I have a basis for asking questions :) <kenvandine> i was thinking it would be nice to have it before then :) <tedg> kenvandine: I can try, but I need to get some applet stuff done and slides for my talk Monday. Plus, I'm single-parenting it this week. I'm not optimistic that I'll get much time on it. <kenvandine> sure <kenvandine> understand <kenvandine> i am still needing to prepare for my talk on tuesday :) <tedg> I don't even have a clear vision for my slide template yet... usually I have that by now. :) <tedg> The new background art wasn't as inspiring as previous ones :( <kenvandine> tedg, background art... did i miss something? <tedg> kenvandine: http://gould.cx/ted/presentations/scale7x/ <kenvandine> oh... background art you created :) <tedg> kenvandine: Well, that was basically the Hardy background remixed. <tedg> It was all kwwii's doing. <kenvandine> :) <artir> get the jaunty background and do the same :) * kenvandine is using gnome love artwork :) <kenvandine> feels weird that my talk will demo something not based on ubuntu... and.. it feels weird that that feels weird :) <tedg> artir: Yeah, the Jaunty background is boring. <tedg> kenvandine: Heh. <artir> who did it? <tedg> artir: I believe that mt did. <tedg> Though I'm not sure. <kenvandine> i like it... it is good for a wallpaper <artir> and for cd covers too <kenvandine> yup * tedg thinks you guys are bland ;) <kenvandine> :) <artir> i haven't changed the wallpaper since i installed jaunty, it's simplicity it's appealing <artir> plus i don't usually see my desktop clean :P <macvr> djsiegel: https://bugs.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/+bug/393158 <macvr> djsiegel: ^something that can be fixed this cycle :) <djsiegel> macvr: awesome, but I gtg now <macvr> later... <lamalex> go to his new job as Apple CEO he means <macvr> CEO , haha! <macvr> somebody will probably have to forcibly throw out Jobs <SiDi> MacSlow: do you use the gconf font size / dpi for notify-osd in trunk ? <MacSlow> yes <SiDi> MacSlow: wont work with xfce ^.^ <SiDi> i was wondering why the font was _so_ little with trunk... my gnome font used to be more little than the xfce one <MacSlow> *shrugg* <SiDi> MacSlow: i'm gonna report this cause we're likely to use notify-osd in xubuntu now (i think its already the case in karmic) <SiDi> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/notify-osd/+bug/339026 actually its already here <MacSlow> correct <MacSlow> actually I don't have time to look at bugs atm <SiDi> no problem #ayatana 2009-07-02 <macvr> hyperair: hi... how to remove a comment from lp? <macvr> or even edit the comment <hyperair> macvr: you can't. <macvr> hyperair: how did you do it then? <hyperair> do what? <macvr> wasnt it you how removed your own comment from the papercuts , saying it was off-topic? <hyperair> nope <macvr> who^ <hyperair> i just emailed the bug saying it was offtopic, and emailed you the reply directly <macvr> ah... <macvr> hyperair: you had me confused ;p , i was wonder how the hell you did it but i'm not allowed ;p didnt notice you had sent mail directly <hyperair> heheheh <hyperair> =p <macvr> mpt: maybe you can look at this and consider for your appcenter idea ? > https://bugs.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/+bug/394608 <mpt> macvr, yes, that should be fixed, thanks for pointing it out <macvr> :) <lamalex> mpt: what's the implementatin status, still targetted for karmic? <mpt> macvr, however, for 9.10 at least Update Manager won't be part of AppCenter, and in the meantime it should be fixed in Update Manager <mpt> lamalex, yes. mvo and glatzor are working on apt-daemon, mvo is trying to wrestle xapian into a helpful state, and I'm starting to write up the design spec <lamalex> cool beans :) <macvr> mpt: how many tiers are the used for the updates? classified as critical/security? <mpt> macvr, as far as Update Manager is concerned, just two. Security, and everything else. <ScottK> That's all there are. <ScottK> ... at least post-release. <macvr> mpt: ah... so you are leaving out the critical updates to be notified only at 1 week? :( <macvr> non-security^ <mpt> For example, if you're subscribed to a daily-build PPA, or subscribed to backports, Update Manager doesn't show them differently from other updates. <macvr> :( <mpt> macvr, the developers who issue the updates regard security updates as more important than the others, so Update Manager acts accordingly. Personally I'd rather security was a subset of critical. <macvr> ^+1 ... since there is more need for ciritical updates than security updates! <macvr> critical <ScottK> It can actually get much more complex since the criticality of updates in general and security updates in particular is very context dependent. <macvr> ScottK: critical ,can be used fixes that solve crashes/memory leaks/major improvements + security updates .. the problem now is that, the critical[fixes for crashes] updates *dont* trigger notifier until 1 week ! <ScottK> macvr: Right. I think that the entire concept of hiding updates from users is fundamentally wrong and broken. <macvr> in the old notifier this wasnt a problem , since the updates ,show up soon <artir> I have a small proposal for the update manager <artir> right now, it pops out a window each time I click on update <artir> It shpuld be better to display the loading bar inside the app <artir> like this http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/6358/pantallazojpb.png <artir> the buttons would be replaced by that bar when u click on update <macvr> artir: this could be considered while designing mpt's appcenter <macvr> as he says it will be included in later releases <mpt> artir, absolutely * mpt -> lunch <artir> :) <artir> it could be even implemented in time for karmic <artir> it's kinda a papercut <macvr> artir: a redesign is not a papercut ;p <artir> it's a fleshwound :P <macvr> just minor fixes <artir> i'll add it to AppCenter/Comments on the wiki * MacSlow -> lunch <macvr> ScottK: mpt: http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=496 <macvr> sometimes too many updates can be frustrating too ;p <macvr> so hiding the non-critical really is not a bad that bad an idea :) <ScottK> macvr: What's non-critical? <macvr> ScottK: trivial fixes , anything that doesn fix a major crash/freeze/or give major improvement to the app <ScottK> macvr: We don't do those post-release. <macvr> ScottK: anything the averge user doesnt obviously benefit from <ScottK> We have a policies in place for what should be fixed post-release and it should prevent minor stuff from getting out. <macvr> but , things miss out, the Jaunty release caused random X restarts! post release and this was for a month! <ScottK> Existence of a bug doesn't equate to a fix. <ScottK> Particularly with X where many problems are hardware specfiic we need to be very careful as one person's fix may be another person's regression. <macvr> ScottK: ^thats the problem! so when we are fixing one's problem , someone else can have new ones , these are critical for average users, since they just want to use it. maybe such updates can be given higher priority <ScottK> Of course such updates are essential for one person and irrelevant for another. <macvr> but we cant distinguish them , and present the updates at leisure 1 week later for users who need them, but again as you say " entire concept of hiding updates from users is fundamentally broken" <macvr> :) <macvr> oh... its not only probs with X , gedit post 8.10 was highly buggy , causing system freezes and 100%cpu usage , , so things sometimes slip out inspite of the policies <mpt> macvr, we reduce people's fixation on the number of updates in 9.04 by not displaying the number <macvr> mpt: thats what i like about not having the notification area icon. i dont think much about it <macvr> mpt: btw , in karmic , i saw it back! <macvr> are you planning to return notification area icon? <mpt> no <macvr> Thank goodness <lamalex> phew <macvr> mpt: but still not a fan of the pop-unders ;p <lamalex> I hate that thing, I'm fighting with my company right now to remove it from ours. The other devs think you guys were wrong on removing it. developers-- <mpt> We're simplifying the window for Karmic <mpt> Anyway, Update Manager isn't really related to Ayatana, it's more of a subject for #ubuntu-desktop :-) <macvr> ;p <macvr> mpt: you should have a look at the ubuquity slideshow , IMO the design aint that great <mpt> macvr, I know, https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-desktop/2009-June/002124.html <mpt> unfortunately I just don't have time for it at the moment <macvr> mpt: hehe, i pointer HS to you <macvr> pointed <macvr> i told him though mpt is quite a busy guy <tgpraveen> hi in karmic according to karmic-notify-osd blueprint it is planned to suppress notify-osd bubbles which are non critical for fullscreen apps. <tgpraveen> so will empathy/pidgin msgs be critical or non critical? * lamalex had an incident with im bubbles yesterday <lamalex> :\ <macvr> tgpraveen: i think there is also plan for a status indicator which will control it ,well atleast it was mentioned in the mailing list <tgpraveen> macvr: like a do-not-disturb mode <macvr> yup <tgpraveen> coz by default IM msgs should be considered critical if in fullscreen they should NOT be suppressed <tgpraveen> though if i am in do-not-disturb mode i guess it makes sense to suppress it <rgreening> kwwii: ping <rgreening> kwwii: are there any .mng oxygen icons for things like copy files, etc? <rgreening> kwwii: in the usb creator, I have a progress bar, but it would be nice to have an icon for each step in the progress, like "install bootloader", "copying files", "Creating file system", "Making/formating filesystem", "Syncing media"... <rgreening> then I can remove the useless time remaining estimator text... <rgreening> :) <rgreening> kwwii: actually, that would be harder to implement by step... maybe one simple .mng to represent building a usb stick... like a puzzle or building blocks... <rgreening> thoughts? <rgreening> :) <kwwii> rgreening: until now we do not have any mng files in the theme <kwwii> actually, for whatever reason, everyone tries to avoid using them in desktops <rgreening> hmm.. ok <kwwii> rgreening: sounds like an interesting idea <rgreening> I was thinking it would look cool. <kwwii> yeah <rgreening> but not necessary... hows the usb icon coming. :P <kwwii> well, I started it ;) <kwwii> maybe I can finish it tomorrow <rgreening> :P <SiDi> heya mrooney ! when do you release wxbanker 0.6 ? :p <mrooney> SiDi: good question! :) <mrooney> I'm working on recurring transactions and online syncing with mint.com <mrooney> also tags are implemented by someone else so I'd like to merge that <SiDi> okies <tgpraveen> SiDi: what is wxbanker? <SiDi> tgpraveen: its an app mrooney develops <mrooney> tgpraveen: personal finance app <tgpraveen> k <macvr> beuno: hi... your thoughts on this> https://bugs.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/+bug/389133 <SiDi> macvr: want mines ? (*grins*) <macvr> SiDi: you will always oppose me ... so no ;p <macvr> i doubt that one is a papercut <beuno> macvr, give me a few minutes, I'll take a peak <macvr> np <SiDi> macvr: i must say im 80% against this feature to be implemented <SiDi> most users dont user what kill'ing a proc means <SiDi> and its not so common that a proc refuses to end when asked to <macvr> SiDi: as i said no thoughts from you ;p <macvr> SiDi: but i had the same thoughts as you... :) <SiDi> but apart from the fact that it'd be a regression, its a perfectly valid papercut :D <SiDi> its true its not easy for the user to guess how to kill a proc that doesnt wanna end, but right clicking it is not so much harder to guess after having gone through the process of discovering the sysmonitor and finding the processes <SiDi> and windows users are _very_ used to the advanced options of ctrl+alt+suppr anyway </troll> <SiDi> macvr: should i be the bad guy on the bug report ? <macvr> Actually i dont mind ... its just that Rich has done the patch, didnt want to dissapoint him :) <SiDi> things that happen <SiDi> i began patching an app in a totally unknown language today because it was using actions <SiDi> (mail-notification throwing bad popups due to actions use without cap checking) <SiDi> and half-way to the process, i have a popup telling me i got a new mail for this report <SiDi> in which it is linked to a dupe with a complete patch.. :D <macvr> hehe #ayatana 2009-07-04 <tgpraveen> is the face-browser in gdm going to be in karmic? <tgpraveen> the blueprint seems to be not specific ie not clear enough <Nafallo> tgpraveen: looks like it is... <tgpraveen> hmm that would be nice indeed <tgpraveen> Nafallo: are u in the ayatana team? <Nafallo> not sure what that means, sorry. <Nafallo> I have a computer running karmic thou <macvr> tgpraveen: ayatana is basically the UX team https://launchpad.net/~canonical-ux/+members , with the other members subscribed to the list <djsiegel3> rickspencer3: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/compiz/+bug/147230 <macvr> mpt: is the system menu being reorganized this release or Karmic+1? <macvr> mpt: also something you might be interested in > https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/+bug/387830 <SiDi> macvr: you guys have so many GUIs in Ubuntu <SiDi> in Xubuntu its more simple... command line :D <macvr> SiDi: cant give too many options to kids ;p <macvr> SiDi: another one,.... cant give mice too much cheese ;p <SiDi> macvr: you fear we become fat ? <macvr> fat like ubuntu ;p <macvr> SiDi: when did we sell ubuntu to M$ > http://linuxologist.com/linuxhumor/ubuntu-is-a-microsoft-product-now/ <SiDi> macvr: ive seen other websites presenting linux as a "microsoft os" <SiDi> happens when you recruit noobs who put "microsoft os" instead of "os" in a field just not to have to type it 5 times in their database <macvr> SiDi: well it is actually... M$ ripped of kde <macvr> off #ayatana 2009-07-06 <macvr> mpt: busy? <macvr> mpt: i assigned a couple of bugs that fell in the domain of the appcentre , for your design consideration , hope you dont mind <macvr> hi... does the desktop team/mailing list also involve in the usability issues of UNR? or can it be dealt with in ayatana? <SiDi> macvr: yeh <macvr> SiDi: yeah to which? <ScottK> macvr: I think desktop team is just Ubuntu. I think you have to address UNR issue to the mobile team. <macvr> ScottK: ah... totally for that team! :) <macvr> thanx <macvr> for/forgot^ #ayatana 2009-07-07 <djsiegel> hey guys <djsiegel> http://blog.davebsd.com/2009/07/07/test-drive-ubuntu-on-your-mac-with-ubuntu-app/ <djsiegel> check it out <DBO> davidbarth, I have pushed my initial testing dbus daemon (currently written in mono, but ready for C porting once me an neil are happy with it) to https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~jassmith/wncksync/trunk <DBO> the daemon works as expected, responding providing .desktop files in return for window XID's and providing lists of XID's for .desktop files #ayatana 2009-07-08 <macvr> ScottK: just out of curiosity....how difficult would it be to mark a package as "requires reboot"? <ScottK> macvr: There's no mechanism for knowing in advance. Currently you touch /var/run/reboot-required the postinst of the relevant package. <lamalex> can we change that? <ScottK> lamalex: We can change anything. It's free software. <macvr> ScottK: i undersatnd that there is no present mechanism... but how difficult is it going to be to implement it? <ScottK> macvr: It shouldn't be really hard, but I'm not sure it's at all necessary. <ScottK> With the exception of Firefox, generally you can install the new version and just catch it on the next boot and keep working. <ScottK> The previous version keeps working just fine. <macvr> ScottK: the problem is updates requiring reboot can be done either at shutdown/login. while the rest are done in-session <macvr> ah... <macvr> so... there is no *need* for a reboot! <macvr> but to the contrary i'v found some packages misbehave :( <ScottK> I'm of the opinion that the optimal solution in this area is to have a subtle, but noticeable indication to the user that there are updates available, they install them when they think it's a good idea, and you also give them a similar indication that a reboot is required and they can do that when they feel like it too. <ScottK> macvr: There may be others. Firefox definitely needs an immediate restart (not the whole system though). <macvr> ScottK: hate firefox! <macvr> it messes up a lot of things , addons dont work! * ScottK isn't a huge fan either, but it's an important use case for the system. <macvr> i think a lot of people would , jump ship to Chrome as soon as chrome is made for native linux and has provision to port firefox extension to chrome <macvr> ScottK: i like you idea... all that i required is re-wording... not use reboot , since it is a warning/harsh word for the users coming from windows <macvr> ScottK: could you mail your idea to the list? <ScottK> macvr: Feel free to copy/paste/mail the IRC log. I'm unlikely to have time to write something better for a while (doing $WORK). <macvr> if i quote other members , i was said not to quote <macvr> ScottK: sent :) <macvr> lamalex: i guess you still arent awake ;p <lamalex> huh? <lamalex> I've been up for hours <lamalex> It's 3pm <lamalex> macvr: ^ <macvr> weird ctcp says 9 am! <lamalex> ah, my vps is in the USA <lamalex> but I am in france <macvr> au revoir monsieur ;p <lamalex> tu pars? <SiDi_> yeh, he's too ashamed to stay <lamalex> :) <ScottK> macvr: It may have escaped your notice, but the way I described thinking updates should work is the way it worked before people started 'improving' it. <macvr> SiDi_: no... i think lamalex needs sleep <SiDi_> ScottK: i +1 you <macvr> ScottK: no...i know what you said... see my recent mail! <SiDi_> the problem is imo educational, and not in our implementation of updates <SiDi_> i'm ok for the update manager to be intrusive when security updates are pending <SiDi_> but not for regular updates <lamalex> macvr: if *you* read what he said, ScottK is describing the old system of updates <ScottK> SiDi_: I disagree. Even security updates are rarely urgent for typical users. <SiDi_> ScottK: no, but they are for the image of Ubuntu :) <SiDi_> think about users who'd get hacked cause of a flaw known for several weeks/months <SiDi_> all the "IT" websites would give us a nice advertising <SiDi_> and this is an issue <ScottK> SiDi_: My point is that it's very rare the security issue that could cause a typical user to get hacked. <macvr> ScottK: i know that the update solution needs more "improving" but i'm just mentioning the rewording for a papercut <SiDi_> (not to mention massive attacks if our end users begin acting like windows's ones) <SiDi_> ScottK: indeed, but we need to make sure it never happens at all :d <macvr> SiDi_: +1 to ScottK: <SiDi_> macvr: this is not papercut-ish <SiDi_> the question isnt trivial <macvr> SiDi_: papercuts are all about rewording! dont confuse the two threads~ <SiDi_> there are currently 4 issues i can identify : some updates require reboot in order to be fully performed | some updates require app restart | updates shouldnt be intrusive | updates MUST be performed <SiDi_> for me updates on shutdown fails to address any of these issues <macvr> SiDi_: oh my god! i'm not trying to solve the updates! just proposed a papercut solution! <ScottK> SiDi_: Go back and look for the last time there was a security fix for an issue that allowed remote priviledge escalation. It's been quite some time. We generally get only a handful per year of those and a small ihodge@example.net. <SiDi_> updates on login is a big amount of effort that fails to address #3 but that partially addresses #2 and #4 <SiDi_> ScottK: indeed, but security is all about being paranoiac :) <SiDi_> macvr: papercut for what ? at the moment when an update makes it needed to restart an app, it says "This app must be RESTARTED" it doesnt say rebooted <macvr> SiDi_: we get paranoid... but not the average user! most of them just dont care <lamalex> SiDi_: update on login also solves 1 <ScottK> SiDi_: It's about being rationale and balancing risk and benifit. If you've connected to the internet you've already made some compromises. <lamalex> and totally addresses 2 <lamalex> oh, i misread <SiDi_> lamalex: #1 is really not a desktop issue... only server issue since servers must do the updates AND stay up all time <SiDi_> #1 can be delayed for a day without problem <macvr> SiDi_: holly crap! I'm only talking about the updates requiring reboot! <SiDi_> ScottK: indeed :p <lamalex> yah <lamalex> it doesn't fully fail to address #3 <macvr> papercut for those! <SiDi_> macvr: we have to care instead of them. That's why mpt took such a drastic decision as update-manager popping up <SiDi_> i agree with the goal but not with the way it is achieved ~ <ScottK> SiDi_: It doesn't acheive the goal either. <macvr> SiDi_: me too <SiDi_> lamalex: i think several mecanisms are needed, and most of them are educational <ScottK> It assumes the wrong problem. <macvr> SiDi_: highly intrusive! <ScottK> The problem isn't people not being able to figure out there were updates available, but that they didn't care. <SiDi_> ScottK: indeed <ScottK> The caring part won't be fixed in software. <SiDi_> from my own testing, the "guy-who-knows-about-computers" has to shout in order to get the "end-user" to perform updates <ScottK> Yep. <macvr> haha ^so true <ScottK> I periodically ssh into all the desktops in the house and update them. <SiDi_> Can we agree on the 4 goals i wrote above, and try to see how each proposed solution addresses them ? <SiDi_> ScottK: im too lazy for that, i just ask if they thought about it when i have them on phone :) <macvr> SiDi_: the goals are right <ScottK> SiDi_: I agree, except that other than in very rare cases there is almost zero urgency for updates to get installed. <SiDi_> (updates on shutdown with other mecanisms can address #2 actually : if we add preinst mecanisms to say that an app will have to be restarted after update, and if we check if the app runs during the update, we can ask the user if (s)he wants to delay the update upon closing this app / the session) <SiDi_> (and for upon closing the session, we gently propose it again when s/he does because s/he can have changed her/his mind <macvr> SiDi_: shutdown achieves #1 #3 #4 <ScottK> Firefox updates as a class also tend to be somewhat urgent. <SiDi_> #1 is not a desktop issue macvr ^.^ <macvr> ah! <SiDi_> alright, i'll write a wiki page with the goals, and then i dont know what ill do but i have a few mins to find out ~ <SiDi_> by the way people, when you change title, please add (Was : $OLD_TITLE) <macvr> SiDi_: no... its more fun when people get confused ;p <macvr> djsiegel_: ping! <djsiegel_> macvr: what's up, man! <macvr> djsiegel_: hi...are you interested in fixing this for the karmic papercut cycle? https://lists.launchpad.net/ayatana/msg00502.html <SiDi_> Takes time to write this damn wikipage <SiDi> Amazing <SiDi> i had a kernel panic when i had just *finished* the wiki page <SiDi> im so pissed * SiDi noticed the wiki saves templates automaticaly so ... https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ayatana/UpdateIssues#preview <SiDi> its almost finished <macvr> SiDi: the issue 4> remove the "non-negligible" , it sounds rude <macvr> SiDi: just "A proportion" / "A fair proportion" <ScottK> macvr: It's wiki <SiDi> Does it really sound rude ? <macvr> ScottK: i knowi can edit...... but he is stil working on it <SiDi> ScottK: im playing with the template for adding proposals of solutions so its locked <ScottK> SiDi: You might go ahead and put in "Revert to what it was in Intrepid" as a proposal is you're taking IRC edit requests. <SiDi> ScottK: feel free to do so :) <SiDi> ill let you know as soon as i stop editing <SiDi> ScottK: im for a mix of previous + current behaviour + some addons <SiDi> i'll explain it all in little time <ScottK> OK. <ScottK> Not that what was there before was perfect, but I think it's a better basis for further development than the Jaunty experiment. <SiDi> i learnt about the current situation late : in xubuntu we kept the old behaviour <SiDi> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ayatana/UpdateIssues can now be edited <SiDi> im gonna work on some idea on my side <SiDi> ScottK: macvr ^ <macvr> SiDi: already on it ;p <SiDi> i'll announce it on the ML <macvr> SiDi: edited it... check it out <SiDi> macvr: dont put a table of contents on the page pls ^.^ i put some damn long titles everywhere, the toc will be too big :p <macvr> SiDi: its better to navigate that way... title dont matter , it even easier if in future someone adds an idea, providing a link to the idea makes references easier <SiDi> then i have to strip it down <SiDi> bah, i'll see this tomorrow in details macvr, i might aswell cut it into several pages <SiDi> what matters now is content :p <SiDi> (btw you had left the ubuntu-art icon in the ToC Q.Q) <macvr> oops! <macvr> SiDi: do you have a screenshot of the restart dialogue? <SiDi> no macvr <SiDi> not relevant anyway : im on xubuntu <macvr> ;p <SiDi> ;) #ayatana 2009-07-09 <macvr> SiDi: dont trash your own idea! > [with a quite bad wording] ! <SiDi> its true :p <SiDi> anyway im too lazy to finish this tonight <SiDi> i found a kitten today so it took a lot of my time ! gonna code a little now #ayatana 2009-07-10 <lool> MacSlow: Heya, I think you're picking up plymouth? (not sure) there is this merge request to fix plymouth lp:~marceloshima/plymouth/ubuntu <SiDi> MacSlow: hello, back from Gran Canaria ? <MacSlow> lool, I think we're not using plymouth <MacSlow> SiDi, yeah... and sorting out stuff <SiDi> MacSlow: let me know when you have ~15/20 minutes for me please ;) i've got 2 bugs i wanna talk to you about <lool> MacSlow: Are you still planning work on it though? <lool> MacSlow: I think we decided it was not worth it in karmic <MacSlow> SiDi, I see <MacSlow> SiDi, btw bug-numbers <MacSlow> ? <SiDi> 382094 <SiDi> and 335383 <SiDi> or one of its duplicates, MacSlow <SiDi> damn no ubottu <SiDi> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/notify-osd/+bug/335383 https://bugs.launchpad.net/notify-osd/+bug/382094 * SiDi is back <MacSlow> SiDi, we'll probably have some gconf-keys for notify-osd for things like fg/text-color, bg-color and title/body text-size <SiDi> MacSlow: ok, i'll see if i can write a little gui for it then, keep me in touch <MacSlow> SiDi, but atm I'm still busy with blur/surface-cache, text- and bubble-grow-animation <SiDi> is it possible to add auto detection of the xfce font / dpi ? <SiDi> i can give you the API to use if you want <MacSlow> SiDi, I don't know... I only know how this works under gnome <SiDi> it's not hard to do :) its just that its called xfconf instead of gconf <SiDi> MacSlow: want me to write pseudo code for it in the bug report ? <MacSlow> SiDi, with all the pending work I'd prefer a patch :) <SiDi> MacSlow: i'll write a patch then XD <MacSlow> SiDi, best would be a compile-time option (defaulting to gnome/gconf like it is now) <SiDi> but it will take a little more time <MacSlow> and if you pass e.g. --use-xconf switching to well the XFCE-variant <SiDi> ok, then i suppose we would ship another notify-osd package with xfce settings ? <MacSlow> SiDi, that's the xfce-maintainers decision not mine :) <SiDi> okey then, thanks <SiDi> https://bugs.launchpad.net/notify-osd/+bug/382094 would you also accept a patch for the changes described here ? <MacSlow> SiDi, there you mainly request the "reformatting" of the output we provide in the ~/.cache/notify-osd.log right? <SiDi> yes <SiDi> and addition of priority (apparently trivial) and image when possible (requires more work) <SiDi> its just much easier to parse that way and reduces the amount of particular cases / restrictions of content in title / body <MacSlow> priority ?= urgency-level I assume <SiDi> yes <MacSlow> SiDi, "icon" is very hard <MacSlow> I'd just say it'll be filled with a filename if one is provided <SiDi> when its given to you via the path, you directly get the pixbuf and dont store the path ? <SiDi> i want the filename when it exists, otherwise gtk-missing-image is fair enough <SiDi> if i notice people ask why i cant provide the image in the notification history i'll add a FAQ/Help entry in my app explaining it #ayatana 2009-07-12 <SiDi> i've just done something epic <SiDi> accidentally clicked on "Offer mentoring" in a Exaile bug, and then i panicked and clicked again, and it kinda clicked on the "Confirm" button <SiDi> and i accidentally made Ayatana discussion a mentor for this bug <macvr> lmao <tgpraveen2> should i file a bug that notifications should support smileys? <SiDi_> tgpraveen2: what do you mean ? <tgpraveen2> when a friend im's me <tgpraveen2> the notification has like <tgpraveen2> hi man :-) <tgpraveen2> : - ) <SiDi_> oh, you wouldnt want it to display a smiley INSIDE the body ? :/ <tgpraveen2> it doesnt convert to a smiley in the notification <tgpraveen2> yes <SiDi_> That's not going to happen imo :) <tgpraveen2> it would really improve things as IM notifications are very common of all the notification <tgpraveen2> why? <SiDi_> because it'd be an heavy code addition for a completely useless feature <tgpraveen2> :-( <SiDi_> IM apps are meant to use the messaging applet instead of notifications now <SiDi_> and i dont know any notification daemon implementation that puts images in the body :) <macvr> tgpraveen2: when formatting is not allowed i highly doubt smileys will be ;p <SiDi_> its allowed by the spec, but Mirco will refuse :P <tgpraveen2> :hmmm... maybe we should just invent a ASCII 2,0 with smileys as characters itself <MenTaLguY> hm, will we still have the option of having notifications for messaging? <tgpraveen2> :-P <tgpraveen2> MenTaLguY: yes <MenTaLguY> ok, cool <SiDi_> tgpraveen2: an UTF-8 2,0 then :p <tgpraveen2> SiDi_: oh is it that. ok then UTF-9 it is <tgpraveen2> :-D <MenTaLguY> don't notifications use Unicode? âº <SiDi_> tgpraveen2: i fear it'll be hard to put it on 9 bits <tgpraveen2> hmm UTF-8++ <SiDi_> UTF-8Â² <tgpraveen2> that would also do <macvr> MenTaLguY: i'v tried using unicode , you can send unicode symbols in notify-osd <macvr> but the progam should a be able to send ;p <macvr> notify-send "âº " " " -i notification-message-email <macvr> tgpraveen2: ^ <SiDi_> now imagine what happens if you got ten :P :P :P smilies appearing in a notification bubble in the middle of a presentation for your company ! <tgpraveen2> SiDi_: presentation time handling of notifications is being discused <macvr> that is why you need to have"Do not Disturb" mode <tgpraveen2> macvr: good. that is what we should use <tgpraveen2> maybe when user sends : - ) we should change it to that <tgpraveen2> and also maybe increase it's size asa it seems smaller than the text <tgpraveen2> is this something that should be suggested as many times my friends IM me smileys and they look bad in this system <macvr> i have tried using unicode symbols , in the thunderbird extension, but it never worked :( <SiDi_> tgpraveen2: tell them to make sexier smilies ! :O #ayatana 2009-07-13 * MacSlow -> lunch <SiDi> had a nice meal MacSlow ? :D <SiDi> (more seriously, is it ok if i replace all the gconf keys by xfconf keys in the xfce version of notify-osd ?) <macvr> djsiegel_: i think this should be looked into for karmic > https://bugs.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/+bug/388866 <djsiegel_> macvr: too big to be a paper cut <macvr> djsiegel_: ah... maybe ayatana then? <djsiegel_> macvr: well... <djsiegel_> macvr: I would assign to the "applets" that open twice <djsiegel_> and they aren't applets <macvr> yeah not applets <macvr> djsiegel_: what about the rewording of the update window? <macvr> dialogue? <djsiegel_> macvr: haven't had time to check it out because of GUADEC <djsiegel_> I will blog about round-2 today <macvr> oh... you are still there... ok <djsiegel_> and tie up loose ends, and get the design team to check our round-3 <djsiegel_> no, got back this weekend <djsiegel_> macvr: for some paper cut relief, http://davidsiegel.org/karmic-backgrounds-contest/ <macvr> djsiegel_: i'm in the art section, i know about that ;p <djsiegel_> great <djsiegel_> the art section? <macvr> artwork discussions mailing list <macvr> djsiegel_: i told you about adding to the wiki , the hardware issues are not papercuts.> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/250211 ,got hounded here <macvr> finally i added a note to the wiki, ;p <DBO> ping njpatel <kholerabbi1> will karmic autologin by default? (https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/398720) <lamalex> i doubt it <macvr> kholerabbi1: actually i think you got it mixed up with the auto login of grub <kholerabbi1> undoubtedly <kholerabbi1> night :) <macvr> djsiegel: nothing was actually fixed here > https://bugs.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/+bug/393645 <macvr> whatever changed, was not done by the papercuts task, it already existed... <djsiegel> macvr: that's fine <djsiegel> macvr: what counts is that the paper cut was fixed <djsiegel> it doesn't matter who fixed it, how, or when, as long as the paper cut is healed <macvr> not fair... ;p <djsiegel> Why? <macvr> how can something be fixed when the problem didnt exist when we got there? <djsiegel> the problem existed in Jaunty <djsiegel> it is gone in Karmic <djsiegel> therefore, a paper cut was fixed <ScottK> It would be prudent not to take too much credit for it, however. <djsiegel> Who is taking credit for it? <macvr> it like a plumber claiming to have fixed a leaking pipe, because the water supply was turned off before he got there ;p <ScottK> Hopefully not the papercuts project. <djsiegel> My concern is that we have a list of 100 usability problems that should be problems no more in Karmic <djsiegel> If a genie fixes them magically overnight, great <ScottK> Agreed. <djsiegel> if they get fixed upstream, wonderful <djsiegel> I will be sure to mention the multiple sources of fixes in the final report <ScottK> As long as it's "Yeah, look what got done" and not "Yeah, look what we did" it's fine. <djsiegel> yeah, I agree <djsiegel> "look at what got done" is always the best route when many people are working on the same set of problems, I've found <macvr> yeah as long as credit goes to the person who fixed it , its nice :) <djsiegel> With my upstream work, if a blogger or journalist singles me out and gives me credit for something that came out of my project, I usually email them and ask them to attribute the team and all contributors instead of me as maintainer <djsiegel> even if I wrote and committed the fix in question <djsiegel> just keeps everyone equally motivated <djsiegel> and at the end of the day, there is no credit because the sun will swallow the earth and all minds, records, digital information will burn up :) <ScottK> Yes, but it'll be on youtube. <macvr> lol <djsiegel> ah, and the radio waves that leak out into space <djsiegel> forgot about those buggers <djsiegel> and airplane black boxes <djsiegel> pretty sure they are sun-proof <macvr> djsiegel: IMO , i think it would be much better , when all task are done because they where first identified in papercuts, we could take more pride in that <djsiegel> macvr: ok, that can be a goal for the next cycle <macvr> +1 <djsiegel> but for these first few milestones, we're just getting the papercutters team together <danrabbit> djsiegel: I was just reading the "Home Folder" debate. I agree with your proposal. It makes the most sense in translation and it makes the most sense to be consistent with the filesystem <djsiegel> danrabbit! <djsiegel> Nice to see you. <danrabbit> I've been lurking :D <djsiegel> Did you see jono's blog on notification areas for dark themes? <djsiegel> danrabbit: and please email Ken back. <danrabbit> no, can you link me? <danrabbit> Yea, no problem. I actually haven't checked my email this morning :D <djsiegel> danrabbit: http://www.jonobacon.org/2009/07/12/icon-theme-hacking-progress/ <danrabbit> thanks <SiDi> ScottK: ping <ScottK> SiDi: Pong <danrabbit> djsiegel: did you read Ulisse's response? <SiDi> ScottK: do you mind reexplaining me whats going on about dontzap please ? :) <ScottK> SiDi: dontzap no longer works due to changes in X, but at least Gnome and KDE use the libxklavier (or whatever it was) to control it via a normal keyboard setting. <ScottK> So from a Ubuntu/Kubuntu perspective, dontzap can go away (we've already dropped the GUI for it in Kubuntu). <SiDi> i had a look at xklavier and i didnt even understand what it was * ScottK neither. <SiDi> if dontzap no longer works then it should go anyway <SiDi> but there should be a documented CLI way to revert the dontzap setting * ScottK was parroting what others said. <ScottK> If there's no GUI, sure. <SiDi> do you know who are these others by chance ? :) <ScottK> My suggestion is to chat with tseliot in #ubuntu-x about it. <SiDi> (xu/lu/flubuntu wont have a GUI indeed. same for openbox and such) <SiDi> hm i'll try to catch him there later then <SiDi> he seems offline <ScottK> Right, well since Kubuntu often gets left out, I wanted to make sure you guys knew and the same didn't happen to you. <SiDi> thanks for letting us know though, its nice from you #ayatana 2009-07-14 * MacSlow -> lunch <mac_v> mpt: ... i really have to appreciate your patience , kudos... still replying in Bug 332945 :) <mpt> :) <mac_v> mpt: would you consider implementing Vincenzo's Idea? > https://lists.launchpad.net/ayatana/msg00266.html <mac_v> would that be easy for a Karmic+1 cycle? <mpt> mac_v, the basic problem with that proposal is described here: http://usablesecurity.com/2005/07/23/simon-says/ <djsiegel_> danrabbit: I marked two papercuts in round-3 as affecting humanity <djsiegel_> just so you can have icons ready <mac_v> ah... a valid point :) <mac_v> mpt: may i suggest renaming the update-notifier daemon > update-manager daemon . since its now working just as an update manger daemon, and there is no notifier <mpt> mac_v, that makes sense to me. It might even make sense to merge them into a single program, I don't know. <mac_v> its just that a daemon named differently ,opening a different named app , creeps out users <mac_v> your idea also sounds good * SiDi doesn't think a desktop app and a daemon should have the same name ~ <mac_v> ;p <mpt> Does that make evolution-data-server bad too? <SiDi> no idea, i dont have evolution installed <mac_v> but evolution is the default email/calander app, and it does have a calender and address book * mac_v used to actually hate not being able to remove it ;p <mac_v> mpt: initially "evolution" in the name confused me, wondered why evolution was still in the system even after i removed "evolution mail client", only later i realized what it was for <mpt> I guess the distinction is that evolution-data-server is used for purposes other than Evolution. But update-notifier exists only to open update-manager. <mac_v> yeah, i got that about evolution only later... <danrabbit> djsiegel: is that 2 papercuts that I need to fix or two papercuts that I *have* fixed? <danrabbit> djsiegel_: ^ <danrabbit> Ah, I think I've discovered the two. Nautilus and Folders? <danrabbit> If so, one is solved and the other is kind of upstream and I can't really do anything about it :p <mac_v> danrabbit: are you involved in Humanity icon set? <danrabbit> yep, I started it <mac_v> danrabbit: why have all the icons been done in svg, and why is the max size only 48px? <mac_v> just out of curiosity , why the theme has been done so <danrabbit> Well, SVG is just easier to work with <danrabbit> I can distribute the source and the working theme at the same time <danrabbit> so for collaboration, it's much easier. <danrabbit> Also, in a lot of cases, I can get the file size of an SVG icon very very small in comparison to a PNG <mac_v> oh...ok... because breathe has been doing svg source and rendering them in png, <danrabbit> Yea it just removes a step <danrabbit> Also, I can copy my symlinks across all sizes and that removes quite a bit of work <danrabbit> In your case it might not be as beneficial <danrabbit> elementary typically does not have as many elements as breath, I think <mac_v> i have been having a problem with a 48px svg not rendering properly , the shape gets distorted, but as a png the shape comes out well, why is that? <mac_v> danrabbit: http://files.getdropbox.com/u/1325768/PNG.png , http://files.getdropbox.com/u/1325768/SVG.png , any thoughts? <MacSlow> SiDi, if you interested I pushed a bit more of the current blur/surface-cache work to https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~macslow/notify-osd/blur-cache (also with tests/examples using the new APIs) <MacSlow> SiDi, integration with notify-osd is still in the works <SiDi> MacSlow: i'll have a look <SiDi> I didnt understand what the tests were doing though MacSlow <SiDi> MacSlow: i had a look at the code for XFCE integration, i can port the whole gconf stuff to xfconf if you're ok with it; Apparently the xubuntu devs should accept to ship a notify-osd-xfce package <SiDi> (when i say port, i mean as a compiling option. #ifndef __USE_XFCE <gconf code> #else <xfconf_code> #endif) <MacSlow> SiDi, as long as that will be a compile time-switch I'm fine with it <SiDi> okey great <SiDi> MacSlow: why does notify-osd use 15MB ram ? what makes it weight so much ? <MacSlow> SiDi, 3.2 MBytes here <SiDi> wow, there is something wrong <SiDi> 32 or 64bits, MacSlow ? <MacSlow> on a AMD64 system <mac_v> SiDi: 3.1 for me in 32bit <SiDi> Ok then i have a problem <SiDi> Does it use many gnome shared libraries ? <SiDi> Cause i'm on XFCE (but i recall it used to be around 6MB on the same system in April) * SiDi reinstalled, 9MB now... weird <MacSlow> SiDi, it needs cairo, glib and gtk of course <MacSlow> and that's it <SiDi> We use all of this :| <SiDi> and we even use gconf somewhere else <SiDi> I'll check this out with a clean install later then <djsiegel_> danrabbit: how is humanity work coming? <danrabbit> Are you referring to those two bugs you marked me for? <djsiegel_> no <djsiegel_> just in general <danrabbit> I need to sync some changes from elementary. <danrabbit> I think I may have some things to recolor lurking around #ayatana 2009-07-15 <mac_v> mpt: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gtk+2.0/+bug/388633/comments/8 <mac_v> maybe you could comment there itself <mpt> mac_v, done <mac_v> ah... <SiDi> MacSlow: woot, nice blur :) <MacSlow> SiDi, brought to you with a lot of pain :) <SiDi> hehe i can imagine it's not been easy <SiDi> congratulations :D <SiDi> btw i think i saw a sync notification
{'channel': 'ayatana', 'month': 7}