#ayatana 2009-06-01 <SiDi> Hey people <SiDi> do you think it is worth the pain to have an app allowing to browse through an historical of notifications ? Just a GUI parsing the .cache/notify-osd.log file ? <GreySim> I think it would be, yes. <GreySim> I know I would use it. Not often, but I would. <ccooke> An idle moment of thought brought me this question: Would it ever be useful or interesting to be able to trigger an action when a notification matching certain parameters arrives? <ccooke> I mean, in many ways what's actually being *implemented* here is a human-computer event interface :-) <SiDi> if an action should be done automatically, the application sending the notification could manage it more accurately <SiDi> if the action is meant to be triggered by the user after he read the notification : 1) its not compulsory and we shouldnt disturb him more by adding an action to the notification <SiDi> 2) its compulsory and he should have a dialog with a compulsory action instead of a notification <ccooke> I'm thinking more user-defined or cross-package things <SiDi> ah for user defined, i wish it was there, indeed ^_^ <SiDi> but i think it wont happen. Canonical is right when they say notifications should have no actions. It's a bad design, and they dont want to introduce it again, imo <ccooke> A couple of random examples being, say: An app that can run a command whenever a certain string appears in an IM message <ccooke> Or a fun one: When battery is critical, copy some important files to a backup <ccooke> basically, I'm wondering if it's useful for package A to be able to say: Whenever a message matching <stuff> arrives, I want to be triggered so I can do <things>. <ccooke> (Oh, and how was UDS?) <SiDi> great :) <SiDi> ccooke, i think Dbus / DCOP / gconf are more adaptated for this kind of usage <SiDi> and having the app sending the message which you want to exploit be aware that package A wants to do this or that helps making sure for the app devs that its a wanted behaviour <SiDi> and if they do it the proper IPC way they can throw it more efficiently and not relay on libnotify <ccooke> Right <ccooke> in which case, are messages repeated onto dbus? #ayatana 2009-06-04 * MaWaLe is away: brb * MaWaLe is back (gone 00:01:34) * mat_t changed the topic of #ayatana to: https://edge.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts Let's fix these small annoying bugs! #ayatana 2009-06-09 <lamalex> will karmic's notify-osd be themeable? <davidbarth> lamalex: hi; that's something we're discussing on the ayatana list and in the karmic blueprint that goes with the feature <davidbarth> lamalex: the short answer is, yes in a limited way; ie provide the ability to cope with dark and light themes equally well <davidbarth> lamalex: but we don't plan to let users pick particular colors for particular parts of the notification, in order not to reduce their qualities like being unobstrusives, yet clearly identifiables <lamalex> davidbarth: thanks <lamalex> i seem to have somehow missed that ML discussion <lamalex> too much email means I miss the important ones.. <davidbarth> lamalex: i didn't mean that it was a current discussion topic (though it was mentionned in the n-osd discussions); but mainly that another good channel to ask/discuss that is the ayatana list <lamalex> ah, gotcha <smerp][> Good morning... I was wondering if someone could figure out WTH I'm doing wrong in trying to get an Xchat-GNOME plugin working with Indicator Applet <smerp][> The plugin registers (i.e. the server is created and it connects to the Indicator Applet, but no matter what I do, individual indications don't show up. <smerp][> Code (so far) is here -> http://pastebin.com/f5d3f63f2. Be gentle; I'm a bit new to GTK+. <tedg> smerp][: You could run /usr/lib/indicator-applet/listen-and-print and that should show what you're sending. <smerp][> tedg: oh, that's nifty * smerp][ tries <tedg> smerp][: You should probably have a g_object_unref() in remove_indicator() I don't see another place the object is unref'd <smerp][> tedg: Yeah, I was wondering if I was missing some vital cleanup bits <tedg> smerp][: I don't see anything else obvious. Is the "sender" being set with the whole message? It might be kinda big. <smerp][> tedg: nah, that's just a crappy variable name choice on my part. right now, I'm just setting the channel / username that sent the message / action <smerp][> so, it should be short and sweet <tedg> smerp][: Okay. <tedg> smerp][: Are you seeing anything unexpected in the debug log? <smerp][> tedg: seems to be adding two indicators per message I receive, which seems busted <tedg> smerp][: But neither is showing up in the applet? <smerp][> tedg: correct <tedg> Hmm, can you pastebin the log? <smerp][> tedg: from listen-and-print? <tedg> smerp][: Yes. <smerp][> tedg: http://pastebin.com/f59ab4796 <smerp][> tedg: http://pastebin.com/f337b6d23 <- lastest code, after g_object_unref; now it crashes upon regaining focus <smerp][> tedg: I'm pretty sure that's my fault; there were some changes made to freeing the list <tedg> smerp][: Hmm, I don't see anything odd. I have to run to a meeting, and actually then another meeting. The only thing I could possibly think of is adding an icon. If that's the issue, it's a bug. But I think all the other apps do so. <smerp][> tedg: yeah, I thought of that; I'll give it a shot and let you know <smerp][> tedg: thanks for taking a look! <tedg> kenvandine: Do you know if smerp][ was able to get his plugin working? * tedg is finally btk (back to keyboard) <kenvandine> tedg: mostly yes <kenvandine> he said it is still "quirky" :) <kenvandine> but yes it works now :) <tedg> kenvandine: Cool. Hopefully listen-and-print can help with some of the quirkiness. <smerp> tedg: nah, the quirkiness is in my court <tedg> smerp: Ah, sorry. I was looking for the full "][" and I didn't see you :) <smerp> tedg: the problem earlier was me attempting to start a server listening for one thing and then setting message subtypes that didn't match <smerp> yeah, the smerp][ account is the secondary one -- the one I was using while playing around with xchat-gnome <smerp> FWIW: http://github.com/smerp/xchat-gnome/blob/3bd5605a3b28e58180137c0151c8d9b21102d29d/plugins/indicator-applet/indicator-applet.c * smerp will hack on it later tonight. :D <tedg> smerp: Very cool. There are a TON of people who ask me about that plugin. I'm sure people will be excited about it. <smerp> :D <smerp> well, I didn't want to patch the existing Notify-OSD plugin (or the existing Notification Plugin, either) <kenvandine> :) <smerp> but ideally, this replaces the notification plugin (the one that puts the icon in the notification area in the panel) <smerp> and it plays just fine with notify-osd <tedg> smerp: I think that makes some sense. The issue there is that it'd be nice if there could be graceful fallback. So, for instance, you could choose the Messaging Menu, and if that isn't there do the notification area, and if that isn't there pop up a window, if there are no windows... <smerp> tedg: yeah, that would be refactoring + eliminating some existing plugins to pull them all together <smerp> tedg: that's not a bad idea, actually <smerp> I mean, how many different plugins do you need? <tedg> Yeah, I think long term it makes sense to integrate them. But, that's easier when you're integrating working things, not getting them working at the same time. <smerp> tedg: exactly. right now I'm just shooting for the simple thing that works #ayatana 2009-06-10 * mpt prepares to update the Notify OSD spec for Karmic #ayatana 2009-06-11 <ubu-noob> >:o <macvr> hi all... anyone here using the evolution mail client? <smerp> macvr: Yes <macvr> smerp: how does the new mail notification display? <smerp> macvr: Well, I get a translucent window from notify-osd in the upper right, and the Indicator Applet lights up (if you're using it) <macvr> smerp: i meant text> does the mail subject show in bold ? or is only the X new mail in bold? <smerp> Mine just comes up with "1 New Message" <smerp> or "4 new messages"... subjects don't seem to pop up at all <macvr> smerp: thats not very useful is it! <smerp> macvr: no, I don't suppose it is ... not sure who should fix it, though <smerp> I suppose the notify-osd support is plugged in somehow <smerp> I wouldn't mind it working like the Gmail Notifier on my Mac -- a notification for each new unread message with a Subject, author, and snippet of the body. <macvr> smerp: the changes have to be done in notify-osd to allow multi-line bold display... thanx for the reply <smerp> macvr: ah, I see <smerp> ok, np <SiDi> smerp: honnestly, depends on the amount of mails / day :) i'd be crazy if it displayed each mail <smerp> SiDi: hah, true <macvr> SiDi: there should be a cut off limit <SiDi> i dont think there should be notifications at all actually :) <macvr> SiDi: check out the thunderbird addon. it displays the subject , sender . <SiDi> now that we have a sexy notification server, the best we can do is avoid to waste it and use the as sexy indicator applet for the role of messages <smerp> http://teddziuba.com/2009/04/disable-the-annoying-thing-in.html <- :D <macvr> SiDi: i dont want to check the mails everytime it arrives ! but just check when i recieve important mails <smerp> SiDi: oh, agreed <smerp> indicator-applet is much better for this <SiDi> yeh, i think the default pidgin behaviour is too aggressive :/ * macvr thinks ideally a setup where the notification displays only for the contacts i have marked as important or for folders marked important would be nice <SiDi> looks like MSN's damn "Foo logged in, and i tell you with a notification even if you didnt talk to him for 2 years" <SiDi> the problem is being able to setup important contacts <smerp> SiDi: not only that, but the patches for libindicate for pidgin indicate for "user logged in", which shouldn't trigger the indicator-applet, IMHO <macvr> but folders should be easy <macvr> SiDi: how about ignore lists? <macvr> smerp: cant the notifications in evolution be switched off? thunderbird has a display notification option... any equivalent in evolution? <smerp> macvr: perhaps -- somewhere buried in the prefs * smerp likes them just fine, so I leave them on <smerp> unlike ted, who wants to be left the hell alone, evidently <macvr> ^haha! whats his prob though <smerp> macvr: ted dzuiba is always cranky :D <smerp> but fun to read, if you like that sort of snark <macvr> smerp: http://teddziuba.com/2009/04/my-triumphant-return-to-el-reg.html < yup... kinda looks cranky :P #ayatana 2009-06-13 <ubu-noob> I have an idea, but I need help fleshing it out. <ubu-noob> Any replies? <SiDi> hi <SiDi> whats the idea ? <ubu-noob> Thanks Sidi <ubu-noob> Ok. I'll give it in chunks. <ubu-noob> From my understanding, Ubuntu is very much like Debian. There are various teams, who mostly build and test packages. <ubu-noob> Now, there's nothing wrong with that. <ubu-noob> What I'm interested in, is conveying the following thought: <ubu-noob> Ubuntu shouldn't just be about developing software. It should be about developing satsisfying user experiences. <ubu-noob> satisfying <ubu-noob> So, even though we have this working base of code <ubu-noob> and these teams that repackage (mostly) <SiDi> Do you think the whole ayatana process is only coding ? :( <ubu-noob> No, ... but wait to what I'm getting at... (please :) <ubu-noob> I think we should be concerned with the impressions people have of using Ubuntu * SiDi waits. <ubu-noob> thanks <ubu-noob> I mean, it is good to develop Use Cases for what various users are experiencing from using Ubuntu <ubu-noob> Maybe I'm a new user, and I've only heard about Ubuntu. Then I go to Ubuntu.com and and am interested in trying it out, but maybe I find the website confusing, and I'm unsure of what a LiveCD even is. <SiDi> I still don't see your point <ubu-noob> Or perhaps I don't even know I can just download the iso and boot off a usb stick <ubu-noob> OK.. I'll push along <ubu-noob> I mean, we have all these teams assembling the parts that go into Ubuntu <ubu-noob> but where are the teams that are asking users how they feel about their experiences of using Ubuntu? <SiDi> There is a team that helps explaining what ubuntu is (documentation), another that helps saying that ubuntu exists (marketing), another that works on making it more agreable to use (ayatana / user experience). What do you think that could be improved / that is lacking ? <ubu-noob> A good question <ubu-noob> I would say <SiDi> Hm, actually we have quite a lot of feedback already, if thats what you mean. But its true its only feedback from people that take upon themselves to give it to us <ubu-noob> Well, for one thing, after you complete a new install. <ubu-noob> I think I'm not the only person who completed a new install, and then said to myself ... OK, so what am I supposed to do now? <ubu-noob> Here I am looking at a blank desktop. <ubu-noob> But where do I go from here? <ubu-noob> What are the various things I can do with my system. <ubu-noob> I've read many Brainstorm ideas that suggest some kind of 'welcome tour' that greets new users after their install is complete. <SiDi> you're supposed to go watch whats on the menus, and begin using it :) the fact that there is nothing on the ubuntu desktop is a choice. It means : you've installed ubuntu, now you're free to use it the way you want and we wont bother you <SiDi> I think its not needed. The point of the liveCD is to let the user try before and during the install <SiDi> once it is physically installed they should already have clicked here and there and be at ease with the basics <SiDi> ideally <ubu-noob> Yes, I think that works well for you (an many others), but perhaps we need to consider the experiences of users who are not like us. I think that is kind of what I'm getting at. <ubu-noob> I'm certainly not arguing here <ubu-noob> but in a spirit of kindness <GreySim> From what I understand, there's supposed to be some sort of slideshow that plays during installation in the next release. <ubu-noob> I'll just point out some words you're using <ubu-noob> "they should already have" <ubu-noob> it sounds like you are putting the blame on the new user for not being able to 'get up and run' after they have completed a new install <SiDi> should in the sense of "they should have had the occasion to have" <SiDi> its not in the sense of "its their fault if they didnt" <ubu-noob> Yes, I understand. <ubu-noob> I'm not saying you are wrong <ubu-noob> I'm just saying perhaps there are users out there who would greatly benefit from having additional help in this matter <ubu-noob> GreySim, thanks, I didn't know that. <ubu-noob> And my point is ... there are probably many areas <SiDi> ubu-noob: i agree that we could improve the "during install" part for those who dont feel like exploring <ubu-noob> in which (not only new users) - but users in general <GreySim> ubu-noob: There's talk about it on the Ubuntu Docs list, I don't know if there's some sort of web interface for that or not, but I imagine there would be. <GreySim> The slideshow, I mean. <SiDi> by providing documentation, a welcome tour bigger than the site's one, maybe other things <ubu-noob> are having an experience of Ubuntu which could be greatly improved, if we were only aware of the issues they are facin.g <SiDi> but i think users (current and most of new) would hate us for anything on the "default" desktop after install <SiDi> its their place, we shouldnt be intruding (does this word exist ? :p) into it <ubu-noob> I can appreciate that point of view <ubu-noob> however, isn'tt that an arguement to not change. <ubu-noob> I mean, why make any change to the system if you can argue those changes will upset some users. <ubu-noob> you know <ubu-noob> I think it's not about this particular point <ubu-noob> It's not about just the welcome slideshow <SiDi> As for feedback, i think the developers already have more than they can manage, so its important to focus on "high quality" feedback contacts, that will come to us and be ok with keeping discussing with us, instead of going to grab the users and ask them for their opinion (which would bother some, and which would gather more data than anyone can handle) <ubu-noob> it's about having people interested in, and askign those types of questions <ubu-noob> Thanks again GreySim. Good info <SiDi> Well, i think we have quite a big community yet ;) I understand that you may want it to be bigger, but i think we should trigger interest if we want interested people, and not ask them to get involved without them to be motivated for it <ubu-noob> Sure, I'm not discussing issue of recruiting here, thought that is certainly valid. <SiDi> ubu-noob: if you have several ideas on how to improve user experience, it would be very nice from you to write on the ayatana mailing list about each of them (if possible in a separate email for each idea, unless they're linked) <SiDi> https://lists.launchpad.net/ayatana/ <ubu-noob> Hmmm. <ubu-noob> Do I have to register? How does it work? <SiDi> Do you have a launchpad account ? <ubu-noob> no <ubu-noob> So I should sign up for one? <SiDi> Alright, you should then create one :) <ubu-noob> Then I can post to thte list? <SiDi> yes <ubu-noob> cool <SiDi> once you have an account, go to https://launchpad.net/~ayatana/+join to can join the ayatana discussion team and subscribe to the list <ubu-noob> thanks <ubu-noob> tell me about ayatana <ubu-noob> I already knwo <GreySim> ubu-noob: Here is the first message about the slideshow: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2009-June/013200.html <ubu-noob> you're the ones behind the new notification system in Jaunty, (I'm assuming) <SiDi> then, just send emails to rodriguezcrystal@example.org | be sure when you answer a mail on the list to check that the subject of your message is correct, and the recipient list includes this address <GreySim> The archive for the month, which includes more of the slideshow stuff; it looks like the thread splintered a bit somehow. https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2009-June/thread.html <SiDi> the Desktop Experience team in Canonical are behind notify-osd and indicator-applet, yes <GreySim> And the info to join if you'd like: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc <SiDi> I'm personally just a community member though :) <ubu-noob> Thanks GreySim <ubu-noob> what's a community memeber? <SiDi> It's an ubuntu user, like you and me, who decides to get involved on his own and to participate in general feedback / development / translations / documentation / artwork / anything else <SiDi> If you post to this list, you'll kind of be a community member too :) <ubu-noob> REading it now GreySim <ubu-noob> cool :-) <ubu-noob> @SiDi <ubu-noob> The slideshow sounds interesting, by the way <ubu-noob> So, who decided Ubuntu needed a new notification system, anyway? Hadn't anyone heard of mummbles-project.org, a clone of apple's growl? <ubu-noob> -- not that I'm complaining <SiDi> What is apple growl ? <ubu-noob> I'm just curious where the idea came from <ubu-noob> Yes growl <ubu-noob> Let me google it. <ubu-noob> here's one: http://watchingapple.com/2008/07/growl-works-great-for-system-notifications/ <ubu-noob> here's mumbles: http://www.mumbles-project.org/ <ubu-noob> I believe it works with or without a compositor <GreySim> From what I understand, Mumbles decided to invent their own thing instead of following the fd.o notification spec, though I could be mistaken. It's been a while since I rodriguezcrystal@example.org. <ubu-noob> It's the first thing I thought of when I saw the vid on Mark S's blog about the new Jauntry notif system <SiDi> wow, it looks exactly like notify-osd Oo <GreySim> notify-osd and notification-daemon are interchangeable and follow a published specification. <GreySim> Growl has themes and can look like anything, but the default "Smoke" theme does look like notify-osd, yeah. <ubu-noob> Could they not have extended mumbles to send it's messges in a fd.o compliant way, though? <GreySim> Growl themes are just HTML/CSS. <ubu-noob> -- similar to Apple Dashboard widgets <ubu-noob> (minus the js) <GreySim> Yeah, which add JS. Growl may also use JS, but I'm not sure. <GreySim> Yeah. <ubu-noob> Great minds :-) <ubu-noob> ;-) <ubu-noob> And mumbles already has plugins: mumbles now has plugins for Gaim, Pidgin, Rhythmbox, Firefox*, Thunderbird*, and custom notifications. <ubu-noob> Is it worth taking a look at the mumbles code? <ubu-noob> Maybe it might save the notification-ocd guys some time and sweat <SiDi> ubu-noob: im tempted to say no :) <SiDi> plugins likely are compatibility plugins <GreySim> I don't think there's any particular benefit. <ubu-noob> ok <SiDi> mumbles doesnt seem to use the standard notification system, which every app can use independantly if which notification daemon is used <ubu-noob> got it <ubu-noob> So, there won't be too long to wait for firefox to use notifcation-osd <ubu-noob> ?? <GreySim> Yeah, so if you don't like needing compositing for notify-osd, say, you could just use notification-daemon, and the notifications will all still work. <GreySim> Firefox can use it now, I think. <SiDi> err, ubu-noob thats really up to the mozilla foundation :) <GreySim> I can dig up a link, hold on please. <GreySim> You can get it through an extension. <SiDi> their code is crazy, and hard to maintain for third-persons. But i think there is a guy outside of their company working on it <ubu-noob> an add-on? <SiDi> GuyFromHell (he's likely in #exaile as we speak) coded such an add-on <GreySim> http://lifehacker.com/5271207/firefoxnotify-puts-download-notices-in-ubuntus-pop+ups <SiDi> but the actual way to do is to replace the app's osd by libnotify <ubu-noob> I'm reading http://www.mumbles-project.org/extras/ <GreySim> I like this plugin more than OS X's built-in Growl support too, because it actually tells you WHICH file finished downloading. On Mac, Firefox just says "all downloads are complete." <ubu-noob> Firefox & Thunderbird Extensions The following are generic DBus notification extensions for Firefox and Thunderbird. Mumbles plugins have been created to listen for events sent by these extensions however, they are not limited to use by mumbles. They each send generic DBus signals (NewMail and DownloadComplete) on their respective events so other applications (an Awn plugin for example) could listen for these signals and react accordin <ubu-noob> So I guess DBus isn't generic enough? <ubu-noob> Also, from the LH page: <ubu-noob> One of the big disadvantages of the notification is that it is very difficult to do anything with them. For example once a download completes I can't click on the new notification to open the download folder. It looks pretty, but other than that not very functional. <ubu-noob> "" <SiDi> ubu-noob: its not about that <SiDi> there is a standard lib called libnotify, drafted by freedesktop.org <SiDi> used by gnome/kde/xfce, and used by almost every app (in the notable exception of firefox/thunderbird and a few others) <SiDi> and you can code your own libnotify server (notify-osd, notification-daemon, xfce4-notifyd, and others) <SiDi> mumbles defines its own protocol instead of respecting the current one <SiDi> this means no compatiblity, and a hell to maintain <ubu-noob> Aaaaa. I see <ubu-noob> Just curious. Does notify-o use DBus? <SiDi> it uses libnotify :) <SiDi> which, i think, uses dbus <GreySim> Admittedly when they started Mumbles, notifications were still pretty new, notification-daemon sucked more, and notifications in general weren't necessarily "catching on" yet. It was a bit more of an <GreySim> open market", so to speak. <SiDi> (but well, my bittorrent client too uses dbus :P) <ubu-noob> which client? <SiDi> one with 0 users :) <SiDi> (ok, actually two of the devs use it, so 2 users) <ubu-noob> As long as it has more than 0 trackers <ubu-noob> So, nobody answered my question <ubu-noob> Who decided what Ubuntu needed was a new notification system, in the first place? <GreySim> Not a new notification system. A new notification display. <ubu-noob> Yes <GreySim> Which is close to being the same thing, but not quite. <SiDi> clients dont have much to do with trackers :) and for who decided notify-osd, i'd answer : Canonical <ubu-noob> GS - yes. Libnotify was already in existence. I understand. But to the average user, I don't "see" libnotify. I "see" graphics come and go in a nice fade on the top right corner of my screen. <ubu-noob> Canonical <ubu-noob> Another question <ubu-noob> When I go to http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/download <ubu-noob> there is a requirement to chose a location <ubu-noob> but when I download firefox from the mozilla site <ubu-noob> it doesn't ask me that <ubu-noob> I just click and download <SiDi> ubu-noob: you come two days too late for that discussion :) <ubu-noob> how so? <SiDi> it was held at #ubuntu-website and the web presence team will work on improving this specific thing for karmic <ubu-noob> That's funny, because I posted it to Brainstorm so so so long ago: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/11375/ <GreySim> Oooh, a new place to lurk. Yay. :) <SiDi> ubu-noob: i must say that we dont read the WHOLE brainstorm thing :) <ubu-noob> Ha ha <ubu-noob> I don't expect it is even possible <GreySim> ubu-noob: Have you looked at the actual slideshow yet? It's actually a bit better than I was expecting. <GreySim> If you use bzr already: bzr branch lp:ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu <ubu-noob> GS- lemme see. <GreySim> Then find and open Slideshow.html <ubu-noob> lemme se <SiDi> ubu-noob: type "Gr" and then Tab, to get his whole name written ;) <GreySim> I also answer to and have set highlights on "Sim" <ubu-noob> SiDi: wow, that works <ubu-noob> thanks :) SiDi <SiDi> ubu-noob: you're welcome <ubu-noob> still looking for the URL GreySim <GreySim> Which URL? <ubu-noob> for the slideshow <ubu-noob> slideshow.html <ubu-noob> I'm looking for something that starts with www. :-) <GreySim> You have to check out the code. I don't know if there's a way to do it without bzr or not, but if you install bzr, just run: bzr branch lp:ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu <ubu-noob> OK, now I'm a bit flustered <ubu-noob> Brainstorm = website to give ideas <ubu-noob> bzr = ??? <GreySim> Sorry, my mistake. <SiDi> bzr is a distributed version control system <SiDi> I'm sure it helps :D <ubu-noob> cvs <ubu-noob> vcs <GreySim> Like cvs or svn, yes. <ubu-noob> OK <GreySim> If you're actually in Ubuntu right now, if you type "bzr" into a terminal, it should tell you which package you would need to install. <ubu-noob> So, I have to apt-get bzr, if I want to look at the slideshow.html ?? <GreySim> Yes. <ubu-noob> Do you have bzr installed <ubu-noob> ? <GreySim> I do, yes. <ubu-noob> can you send it to me on pidgin (the html file?) <SiDi> how did you find us, by the way, ubu-noob ? <GreySim> It's multiple html files, but I can zip it up and put it in my Dropbox, I suppose. <SiDi> ubu-noob: https://launchpad.net/ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu/+download <GreySim> Or SiDi could do it the easy/smart way. :) * SiDi hides <SiDi> i got so distracted i dont remember what i was coding on :/ <ubu-noob> SiDi: I was wanting to express my ideas, and wrote the Ubuntu Community Council, and gave them my thoughts on how Ubuntu development would be improved if we could shift attention away from assembling, coding, building, and bring more focus to understanding we are creating end user experiences -- and become more focussed on building compelling user experiences first, and then implementing them in code, second. <ubu-noob> GreySim: if it's not too much to ask. <ubu-noob> But would that give me a simple url <ubu-noob> what I wouldn't have to register to anything in order to get <ubu-noob> ? <SiDi> http://launchpad.net/ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu/trunk/snapshot-june-11-2009/+download/ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu-snapshot-june-11-2009.tar.gz <SiDi> lazy <ubu-noob> (really, there's not way to transfer files over IM on pidgin?) I think I did it on ICQ years ago. <SiDi> there is a way to transfer files via IRC <SiDi> and to get bothered with its random failures <SiDi> the faster way is to click the above link <ubu-noob> I see <ubu-noob> I got it <ubu-noob> Thanks SiDi <GreySim> There is a way to transfer files, but I didn't want to open up IM, figure out which details to exchange, hope our networks didn't hate each other, etc. <ubu-noob> No worries GreySim, I just go the file from SiDi's url <SiDi> Did i win a cookie ? <ubu-noob> where is the emoticon for cookie? <ubu-noob> () <ubu-noob> (;:) <ubu-noob> (8) <ubu-noob> (*) <ubu-noob> there! a cookie with a single chocolate chip in the center <ubu-noob> So, let me see if there's an archive of the talk the website team had. <SiDi> there is one <SiDi> but im lazy now <ubu-noob> no worries <ubu-noob> besides, I think I can find it <SiDi> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/06/11/%23ubuntu-website.html <ubu-noob> but first, I wanna look at the slideshow stuff you just sent <ubu-noob> not so lazy... after all <ubu-noob> :() <ubu-noob> :-D <ubu-noob> No more calling yourself lazy, OK. You are finding urls faster than I can leap tall buildings in a single bound <SiDi> yeh but its because i had it in my mailbox <SiDi> :D <ubu-noob> that helps <ubu-noob> So, I'm looking at the slideshow stuff <ubu-noob> So, is this supposed to be showing on the background of the Ubiquity installer when it's installing your system? <GreySim> I think so. <ubu-noob> Well, maybe that's OK, but ... <ubu-noob> what if I want to pause it <ubu-noob> > <ubu-noob> ? <ubu-noob> or go back to the previous slide? <ubu-noob> or I want to remember a certain slide, so I can make use of that information after the install is complete? <ubu-noob> I mean, it's not a bad thing having 4 seconds of a reminder in the middle of a fresh install. <GreySim> Have you read the entire thread about it on Ubuntu Docs? If nobody has brought that up, maybe you should. <GreySim> I haven't read the entire thread yet, so I'm not sure myself. <ubu-noob> But is that enough for me to take full advantage of that information once the install is done and I'm left (all alone) at the blank desktop staring back at me? <ubu-noob> GreySim: hmmm <GreySim> Maybe it should be linked somehow from the System -> Help menu thing, or wherever the help is. <ubu-noob> GreySim: you mean that question mark in the panel? <SiDi> ubu-noob: you shouldnt consider what you see as an achieved work but as work in progress <ubu-noob> SiDi: got it. I'm still trying to find the url for it on Ubuntu Docs <ubu-noob> does the project have an official name? <SiDi> ubiquity-slideshow ? <SiDi> ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu actually <SiDi> join #ubuntu-doc (or docs ?) <ubu-noob> it's just searching https://help.ubuntu.com <ubu-noob> I'm just searching .. <ubu-noob> just joined #ubuntu-doc <GreySim> What are you looking for, exactly? <ubu-noob> GreySim: the discussion logs for the ubiquity slideshow idea, to read if anyone has <ubu-noob> asked the questions I'm asking <ubu-noob> - er, discussed those issues <ubu-noob> "Whether you want to change the theme, font, mouse cursor or more, Ubuntu has all the necessary tools installed and ready for you to use. The arrangement, appearance and settings of your desktop are only a short click away..." <ubu-noob> But it doesn't even tell you *where* you need to click, or even which Menu entry it is in. <GreySim> It's the mailing list links I listed above. * GreySim wishes mailing lists were more like Google groups, where you don't actually have to use a horrid web archive to read, or just email to post. <GreySim> But those who still wanted to interact through email could. <SiDi> GreySim: then it'd be slow to browse for my low bandwidth :) <ubu-noob> You've lost me <SiDi> ubu-noob: the goal is to make the menus logical enough for the user to figure out on his own <SiDi> without us to turn him/her into the average assisted windows user <ubu-noob> GreySim: what did you mean about mailing lists? <ubu-noob> I'm looking at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/06/11/%23ubuntu-website.html <ubu-noob> but so far no slideshow talk at all <GreySim> The initial discussion starts here: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2009-June/013200.html <GreySim> You can see all the messages related to the thread on this page: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2009-June/thread.html <GreySim> And if you want to participate in the discussions, you need to follow the directions on this page: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc <ubu-noob> I did find my brainstorm url on today's log! Yippie! http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/06/13/%23ubuntu-website.html <ubu-noob> How did it get there? <GreySim> I'm not sure how you would reply to the existing messages in a proper fashion though, since you weren't already subscribed beforehand. And that's what else I was talking about just now, is how unnecessarily complex and over-geeky mailing lists are. <ubu-noob> Still, how do I participate in the discussion, otherwise. Do I need to register first to launchpad, then post to those pages? <ubu-noob> er. lists <ubu-noob> One second... need to get power cord before lappy dies. <GreySim> You need to subscribe to the mailing list using the last link I gave you, to get started. But to participate in the discussion, I'm not sure how you would go about it, because the only way I know how requires you to have received a related message already, then you reply to that. <GreySim> So I'm not sure how you would "properly" join the conversation. <ubu-noob> I'm back <ubu-noob> Oh, I see <ubu-noob> That's terribly inconvenient <ubu-noob> Can't I start a new thread, or is that improper? <ubu-noob> SiDi: sorry to keep you waiting <GreySim> I'm not sure. <ubu-noob> What's the harm in trying? <GreySim> I don't participate on mailing lists for the most part. I'm only subscribed to that one to listen for things like calls for proofreading. <macvr> ubu-noob: u sure can start new topics * SiDi is actually back to his code. <ubu-noob> oh, Sidi, don't go~~~ <ubu-noob> !! <ubu-noob> (but I understand if you must) <SiDi> im not going <SiDi> just busy :) <ubu-noob> but still open to talk, or no? <SiDi> yeh, but just dont highlight my name ten times in a row :) <GreySim> Likewise, sorta. Just finished breakfast, so now I'm about to start working on projects and will probably only check IRC occasionally. <ubu-noob> GreySim: got it. Where is it breakfast time now? Australia? <ubu-noob> New Zealand? <ubu-noob> SiDi: got it. <GreySim> West coast US, but I keep a late schedule. <ubu-noob> Well, I just want to thank both of you guys. <GreySim> GF's also sick and I was waiting for her to be awake so I could cook for us both. <ubu-noob> GreySim: hope GF is feeling better. Soup is always good. <GreySim> Thanks. <SiDi> ubu-noob: you're welcome. <ubu-noob> I'm talking with someone on #ubuntu-docs, seeing about how to share my slideshow thoughts <ubu-noob> By the way, I'm guessing if I want to save this discussion (in pidgin) I just Conversation > Save as, right? <SiDi> Dont know <SiDi> i use mibbit <ubu-noob> Well, here goes nothing... <ubu-noob> Yay! Not only did it work, it outputs an html file, comlete with all the urls properly linked. Nice job Pidjgin team. <SiDi> mine doesnt log :p <GreySim> It can, sorta, somehow. <GreySim> They might have removed it though. <GreySim> But at one point I joined a channel, and I had a log of all the recent conversation that had been happening. <GreySim> Another Mibbit user may have been there, as I set up a Mibbit widget to connect to that channel. <ubu-noob> Well, I was talking in #ubuntu-doc, and they pretty much said I can join the mailing list (https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc) and post a new thread, or possibly reply to an existing one. <ubu-noob> "ï»¿ In-Reply-To: header, if you can get the message ID of the previous one. Also, just the subject stuff" <ubu-noob> But I'll probably just start a new thread anyway #ayatana 2009-06-14 <ubu-noob> GreySim: Just by luck, I found an article and youtube vid of the ubiqutiy slideshow: http://webupd8.blogspot.com/2009/06/ubiquity-ubuntu-installer-is-getting.html <ubu-noob> Just in case you were interested #ayatana 2009-06-15 <ccooke> so... is this channel still used, or has all traffic shifted to the mailing list now? * gus_ is wondering the same since some days ago.... <SiDi> well, not everyone in ayatana ML is idling here 24/7 <ccooke> SiDi: please don't read any negative into my question - I'm just wondering where I should be looking mostly <SiDi> ccooke: i think irc is better suited for discussions <SiDi> but if anything important is said here it'd be good to repeat it to the ML <ccooke> I'd agree, but I don't see much traffic here (at least, there doesn't seem to have been any that coincides with me, which is of course Not The Same Thing. <SiDi> I dont see anyone speaking here either to tell you the truth :) <ccooke> ah, well. <ccooke> I've been away for a few days - once I've caught up, I guess I should try starting a discussion here :-) <agateau> ccooke: lots of people from Canonical DX and Design teams are here, if you have questions, just shoot <ccooke> agateau: I need to get caught up first :-) * MacSlow -> lunch <GreySim> Maybe you guys have already seen this, and dunno if you care or not, but 100 paper cuts was covered on Ars Technica. http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2009/06/canonical-to-boost-ubuntu-usability-by-tackling-papercuts.ars <tedg> GreySim: Thanks for the link. <tedg> I do find it funny that the comments are all about how flglx sucks.... which seems relatively unrelated :) <seg|ars> that's pretty common for discussion threads at Ars <seg|ars> they did the same thing when I posted the article about the 10-second boot time goal for 10.04 <seg|ars> everybody wants canonical to invest in fixing their personal pet peeve. ;-) <tedg> seg|ars: Heh, well, we'd love too. Just too many people with pet peeves. <seg|ars> yeah <tedg> I'd love to see the AMD drivers open as well as the nvidia ones... hope with time. <seg|ars> imo that's only going to happen if Linux goes mainstream. And Linux is only going to go mainstream if it's usable <seg|ars> so I'd argue that in the long run Canonical *is* contributing to a solution to the broader problems by focusing on usability. :-) <tedg> In many ways it's a chicken and the egg problem. I'm hoping that the driver folks will change their story if we can get mainstream with OEMs, so that mass market users don't have to deal with the issues. <GreySim> Oh, I didn't realize seg was IN HERE. >.< <seg|ars> haha <seg|ars> GreySim: thanks for linking my article. ;-) <GreySim> seg|ars: Thanks for writing it. :D <ivanka> seg|ars, hi <seg|ars> hello <seg|ars> ivanka: this is a video of the gwibber prototype: http://segphault.cixar.com/img/screenshots/applications/utilities/gwibber/v2.0-1.ogg it provides a clearer picture of how it works <ivanka> new design is looking very good <seg|ars> thanks. :-) <seg|ars> there are some complex UI problems that I haven't come up with a good way to solve, like how to let the user "close" transient streams <ivanka> I'll check the video <ivanka> From the usability sessions I have some 'first use' feedback <seg|ars> excellent <ivanka> So - we were testing with people who had barely heard of linux, nevermind Ubuntu or Gwibber (just to set context) <ivanka> I think your 'account tree' might be a great way to get people to understand what Gwibber does <ivanka> especially if they can add the accounts through the tree... <seg|ars> at the present time, the tree is populated based on what accounts the user has configured <seg|ars> I wasn't going to have the tree show at all until the user set up their accounts <ivanka> I suspected as much :-) <ivanka> hear my rationale <ivanka> people open Gwibber 'microblogging' - is that like twitter and stuff? <ivanka> they go to the Gwibber menu which neither explains nor gets them started <ivanka> In the Accounts menu they have to scroll down before they appreciate the full range of available accounts <ivanka> before I saw your mockup I was toying with how to bring all those logos higher up in the nav <ivanka> the tree might not be the answer but it might be a quick and easy way to provide that 'at a glance - what does this do' functionality <seg|ars> ah I see what you are getting at * ivanka keeps getting interrupted by her little sister <seg|ars> for the first run experience, what I was thinking about doing is having the tree not show and then having the icons in the main content area <seg|ars> so there would be a short introductory message and then big icons that the use can click to set up their account for several of the services <ivanka> would the user be able to interact with them in any way? <ivanka> :) <ivanka> lovely <seg|ars> and I figure that it should only show like four or six of the most popular services that gwibber supports, not all of them <seg|ars> because I've been hearing that some users get intimidated by the large number of services in the account creation menu <ivanka> that sounds right and familiar to me <seg|ars> and there could be a link that says "more services" or something that they could click to get the full list <seg|ars> the main content area in gwibber is a webkit renderer, so that provides a lot of flexibility for presentation <seg|ars> it's possible to do anything that can be done with a web page <ivanka> ah - very good <tedg> It seems like that should be the default configuration dialog though. It seems like people would expect to be able to get back to the same configuration. <Nafallo> hmm <tedg> If it's a good idea, it's a good idea for every run, not just the first :) <seg|ars> yeah, that's a good point. Maybe it could be like a "home screen" or something <ivanka> I was about to say that we have to be careful how we connect this lovely first run to the Account menu <Nafallo> how about putting the most common ones greyed out in the tree? <Nafallo> and when you click them in can open a add account dialog with that service preselected. <ivanka> Nafallo, I was thinking that before I heard about the new and improved first run - both have merit <ivanka> I like the idea of a "home screen" <seg|ars> I think that the home screen could potentially be a complete replacement for the account management dialog <ivanka> yes <Nafallo> home screen? I didn't lurk long enough to hear about that :-) <ivanka> in testing we often see people anchor their behaviour to one "home screen" type thing <ivanka> It would be a much nice way of doing things <ivanka> and encourage the interaction with the content area <seg|ars> one aesthetic issue is that we don't have high quality and visually consistent icons for all of the services <ivanka> seg|ars, I am sure we can fix that <seg|ars> awesome * tedg will make icons that will make all of the services' artists rush to replace them. <seg|ars> haha <ivanka> haha <Nafallo> lol * Nafallo adds the trunk PPA and tries it for the first time. <ivanka> seg|ars, on a slightly different note <Nafallo> facebook doesn't co-op with me wanting to try it :-( <ivanka> Have you done anything with the 'sending' text box thingy (technical term) <seg|ars> Nafallo: facebook made some changes that broke the version in the jaunty repository. I haven't had a chance to backport the new facebook stuff yet <seg|ars> ivanka: a gwibber contributor made a new sending textbox that is resizable and has a few other improvements <Nafallo> seg|ars: that explains it. 404 and 503 all over the place :-) <seg|ars> ivanka: the new input textbox is resizable and it will let you exceed the max character count but will turn red when you do <seg|ars> I'm working on configuring it so there can be a different max character count for each service <ivanka> seg|ars, cool - does it have feedback for 'I am sending this message, all is well' <seg|ars> not yet <seg|ars> do you have some ideas for that? <ivanka> I have some ideas for what wouldn't work <ivanka> it can be useful to get them out of the way, I find <seg|ars> yeah <seg|ars> the other issue that needs to be addressed is that it needs to be clearer which services the outgoing messages are going to <ivanka> Something as simple as hiding the text <ivanka> yes <seg|ars> have you ever tried right-clicking the input textbox? <seg|ars> there are checkbox items on the context menu for toggling which services it sends to <seg|ars> that feature generally lacks discoverability. A lot of users don't know that it exists <seg|ars> one approach that we have considered in the past is having a toolbar with toggle buttons for each service <ivanka> we have been thinking about this a bit too - in a different context <ivanka> do you think toggle buttons with the logo below the text box would work? <ivanka> Type in your message <ivanka> hit the twitter button <ivanka> then the Facebook button <seg|ars> yeah <ivanka> or the 'all' button <seg|ars> another approach that I'm considering right now is that when you have an account selected and you are looking at a filtered stream in the tree, it will send messages to only that account <GreySim> What about user-configurable groups with a dropdown to pick "All", just a single services, or a configured group? "Status Updates" ...or...I can't figure out other possible groups, but I'm just trying to throw out ideas. <seg|ars> so I think that I'd do it that way when the user has selected one of those streams, and then have the toolbar at the bottom when the user is viewing the "all messages" stream <seg|ars> GreySim: I like the idea of groups, but I think it creates too much complexity <seg|ars> GreySim: like the way that pidgin handles custom statuses, it's just too confusing to end users <ivanka> Remember that more people don't customise than do <ivanka> seg|ars, I think the filtered tree stream should also work <seg|ars> yeah <seg|ars> I'm trying hard to make sure that the tree is completely optional and that the UI isn't too dependent on it <seg|ars> because I think that some users might object to how much extra screen space it uses <ivanka> you make a valid point <ivanka> seg|ars, phone is ringing - please excuse me <lamalex> tedg: ping <tedg> lamalex: Hello. <lamalex> tedg: how did you guys get around the indicator applet taking up space when no apps were running? <tedg> lamalex: Secrets :) <tedg> lamalex: Basically by lots of gtkrc magic. If you look at indicator-applet you can see a large amount of GTK style strings being loaded. <tedg> lamalex: Basically those take away all the buffering and backgrounding that normally is associated with GtkMenu and GtkMenuItem. <lamalex> ah <tedg> lamalex: If you want to do that, I'd just steal that code. <lamalex> sucks that gtk makes you do all of that <lamalex> yah, i think im going to ;) * Nafallo ponders why indicator-applet refuse to work on his system #ayatana 2009-06-16 * MacSlow -> lunch * tedg changed the topic of #ayatana to: https://launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts Let's fix these small annoying bugs! <djsiegel> mrooney: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/tango-icon-theme/+bug/277309 can you take care of this in hundedpapercuts, please <djsiegel> mrooney: you seem to me familiar with the bug <SiDi> mrooney: i didnt manage to find you at uds ! <mrooney> SiDi: oh yeah I saw your name badge at the desk but never saw you! <SiDi> i arrived thursday just after the photo :( <SiDi> and i think you left friday early. and i was with the xfce people all time :p <mrooney> SiDi: oh okay, I left saturday afternoon <SiDi> crap :| <SiDi> and you were at the karaoke too ? :o <mrooney> djsiegel: hm I don't even think that dialog is exposed anymore is it? I don't know how to get to it, my comment indicates I thought the bug was fixed <mrooney> SiDi: I was! <SiDi> mrooney: damn, epic failure then cause i was there too. <mrooney> SiDi: alas! there is always next UDS though <SiDi> (btw they didnt have any necklaces so i never wore my badge :X which i now use as a bookmark for my books :p) <SiDi> Yeh #ayatana 2009-06-17 <mrooney> Hello dear paper cutters, is anyone able to add me as a member of the project? I'm a BugControl and Ubuntu member and am helping out with the triaging but I can't mark as Triaged or set an Importance without being a member or having some sort of affiliation with the project it appears. <SiDi> yay, i managed to get two sync notifications at the same time :| <SiDi> http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/7678/capture4n.png <SiDi> MacSlow: do you know if there is a bug report for this case yet ? <MacSlow> SiDi, OMG *sigh* <MacSlow> SiDi, that's new... I can't recall a bug-report stating this <SiDi> I know how to reproduce it though :) <MacSlow> SiDi, yes please do file that on lp against notify-osd (and probably gnome-settings-daemon) <SiDi> I trigerred a sync notification when an async one was fading out already, and then trigerred another sync which went to its free slot <SiDi> Its my own daemon, not g-s-d, though :p <MacSlow> SiDi, if you can deterministically reproduce it even better <MacSlow> SiDi, very often I can reproduce some bugs people report on my
{'channel': 'ayatana', 'month': 6}