#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-10-01 * You're now known as ubuntulog <Pendulum> it seems that we will have more accessibility people after all... <maco> oh <maco> ? <Pendulum> just got sponsorship :) <dutchie> congrats Pendulum <Pendulum> dutchie: thanks :) <Pendulum> maco: seems they'll have to get used to both of us in one place after all ;-) <charlie-tca> great! <Pendulum> charlie-tca: this means I get to meet you, too, right? <charlie-tca> yup <Pendulum> :) <Pendulum> yay! <maco> Pendulum: WOOT <Pendulum> maco: you don't think this'll cause some sort of weird space/time paradox right? <maco> nah i'm pretty sure we've always existed as two separate people... <Pendulum> so'm I. but other people seemed confused... <maco> though for all i know at some point in the future i'm on the run, change my name to Penelope, and then find a time machine... <Pendulum> heh <maco> are you future-me hiding in past-you's (that is, me) 's present? <maco> are you future-me hiding in past-you's (that is, my) present? <maco> (parentheticals break possessives) <Pendulum> maco: I suspect there's only one way to find out... <maco> kill me and see if you cease to exist? <Pendulum> well, I was going to say put us in the same room and see if the universe explodes <Pendulum> but I suppose it's the same thing <AlanBell> so who has the longest hair? is the question <AlanBell> maco or future maco <Pendulum> depends on whether I get split ends trimmed before UDS, I suspect <AlanBell> if future maco is longer then that practically proves the hypothesis <Pendulum> heh <AlanBell> the universe would only explode if it was maco and anti-maco <AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/TeamReports/10/September <AlanBell> any more news to add? <AlanBell> any pre-release activities of note? <AlanBell> blog posts on accessibility issues? <dutchie> i tidied my bedroom <dutchie> you can add that if you like <charlie-tca> wiki work is in progress <AlanBell> bung it in the report, it is a wiki after all! <charlie-tca> and you think I know how? ;-) <charlie-tca> I will do so <Pendulum> AlanBell: not sure if it should be on this month's or next month's, but we've provided Ubuntu CDs for a Gnome A11y hackfest <Pendulum> the hackfest is next month, but all the work we did was this month ;) <erkan^> hello, have a special software for deaf on Ubuntu? Example Ubuntu warn user, but deaf people can not heard. ? <Pendulum> umm... I'm not sure <Pendulum> I think maco was looking into something like that about a month ago #ubuntu-accessibility 2010-10-02 <erkan^> ok <Pendulum> most of the Ubuntu alerts these days are visual rather than using sound <Pendulum> erkan^: is there something specific you're looking for? <Pendulum> erkan^: I meant, a specific sort of alert? <erkan^> yes i mean (-: <erkan^> alert <maco> i added a checkbox for visual system bell in 10.10 but for 10.04 you still have to use gconf <maco> erkan^: to get visual bell, toggle the value of /apps/metacity/general/visual_bell in gconf-editor <erkan^> where can I found --> gconf-editor, maco <erkan^> I have not very experenice :( <maco> erkan^: it's not installed by default <maco> you can use gconftool2 as well, but it's harder <maco> gconf-editor will look like regedit on windows <erkan^> i see that gconf-editor is installed well by default <erkan^> I go try <erkan^> I have found and I have ticked ON now, maco <maco> k so now if you hit backspace a few times in the terminal it should blink the screen <erkan^> Yes!!!! I see. Thank you :D maco <erkan^> here (xchat) too, :) <maco> oh ok. i dont know what all programs do bells <erkan^> I will see <JanC> erkan^: \o/ âº <erkan^> what is \o/ ? ei in de prullenbak weggooien? :P JanC <JanC> throwing your hands in the air yelling "yipee" (or "joepie" in dutch) <JanC> it's nice to see a more & more mixed a11y community BTW <JanC> blind, deaf, motoric, etc. <JanC> which reminds me of this bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/brltty/+bug/651707 <ubot2> Launchpad bug 651707 in ubuntu-docs (Ubuntu) (and 1 other project) "brltty refers to http://access.ubuntu.com/braille but that doesn't exist (affects: 1) (heat: 8)" [Medium,Triaged] <erkan^> have too "deafblind"? (-: <JanC> it seems like there was an a11y site once, but it disappeared... :-( <erkan^> Gooien je handen in de lucht te schreeuwen "Yipee" (-: <Pendulum> TheMuso: do you know anything about an old access lauren32@example.com ? <TheMuso> Pendulum: I only vaguely remember it mentioned in the past. <JanC> well, brltty refers to it ;) <JanC> or whatever package provides the brltty boot script <JanC> Pendulum: any news about a possible a11y track or devroom @ FOSDEM? <JanC> or peopel interested in it? <Pendulum> JanC: it's being discussed on Gnome A11y <JanC> somebody I know who is blind was going to forward it to other blind linux lists & forums & developers he knows too <Pendulum> well it turns out one of the Gnome A11y people had been in discussion with the guy about it <JanC> and the FOSDEM organiser who proposed this knows an OpenSuse board member who's working on this etc. <Pendulum> I think that's possibly the Gnome A11y person as well <JanC> oh, cool <Pendulum> Bryen <JanC> yeah, seems like that must be him (after reading the list archive) <maco> what's bryen's last name? <maco> oh ok yes <maco> that is the guy i met at OLF <maco> bryen yunashko <Pendulum> maco: yeah, that makes sense that you met him at OLF :) <maco> Pendulum: that's the guy i was interpreting for on friday #ubuntu-accessibility 2010-10-04 <nigelb> AlanBell, Pendulum: One of you want to talk about a11y during open week? <Pendulum> nigelb: charlie-tca is already doing so :) <Pendulum> I will be out of town for most of open week, though <nigelb> Right, I should learn to read. <nigelb> :p <Pendulum> charlie-tca: TheMuso nigelb AlanBell : to fit better with the new track divisions for UDS, I was thinking rather than a "accessibility team" session, to instead do a blueprint for "improving accessibility development & information" or something like that. Thoughts? <nigelb> +1 <Pendulum> that way it's getting more than just us organised and it means that we can talk devel as well as community <charlie-tca> Am I behind on things again? new track divisions? <Pendulum> maco: ^^ <nigelb> charlie-tca: did you see the tracks for this uds? <charlie-tca> +1 for organized! <charlie-tca> I glanced at them <Pendulum> charlie-tca: tracks used to be divided up into things like community, platform, desktop, server, etc. <nigelb> oh, also, just for people who didn't know yet: I'm 90% not going to make it to uds thanks to denied visa * Pendulum hugs nigelb <charlie-tca> nigelb: sorry to hear that <Pendulum> nigelb: I assume you will at least attempt to be there remotely, though? <nigelb> charlie-tca: I got over it :) <nigelb> Pendulum: oh YES! <Pendulum> :D <charlie-tca> gained 1 to meet: Pendulum - lost one I want to meet: nigelb <nigelb> lost to meet: ALL. :p <Pendulum> charlie-tca: yeah, I've gained and lost as well <Pendulum> maco: have you seen http://www.bryen.com/still-devastated/ and http://pledgie.com/campaigns/13645 <maco> looking <Pendulum> charlie-tca: btw, did you have any feedback on my idea earlier? other than the "more organised +1" bit? <Pendulum> maco: btw, you might also be interested in an idea I proposed earlier (around 10:30 if you look for it in scrollback or logs) <maco> the uds session? <Pendulum> yeah <maco> Pendulum: donated & blogged <TheMuso> Pendulum: No thoughts as yet. <Pendulum> TheMuso: how're you? <TheMuso> Pendulum: Not too bad thanks. Had a long weekend here in Australia, so back to work on a Tuesday. Was nice to have the extra day off. <Pendulum> :) <Pendulum> TheMuso: I got an e-mail friday that I've ended up with sponsorship after all :) <TheMuso> Sweet! <Pendulum> yeah! <Pendulum> I look forward to seeing you! <TheMuso> You too. <charlie-tca> sorry, no, I didn't have more feedback yet <Pendulum> charlie-tca: no worries :) #ubuntu-accessibility 2010-10-05 <TheMuso> /c/c #ubuntu-accessibility 2010-10-06 <JanC> just saw a cool application: http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/nomon/ <JanC> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qktEuZW92qY&fmt=22 to see how it's used <AlanBell> demo running on Ubuntu too <AlanBell> looks like it needs a good sense of rhythm #ubuntu-accessibility 2010-10-10 <austen> Hey <Pendulum> paul_h1: you're the person who just posted asking about Unity and Orca, right? <Pendulum> bah <Pendulum> nevermind <Pendulum> I was crap at reading names ;-) <Pendulum> TheMuso: are you aware if any testing was done of running Orca on Unity? <paul_h1> Pendulum: sorry, did you ask me something? (wasn't paying much attention to computer...) <Pendulum> paul_h1: I did, but then realised the answer to my question was no :) <paul_h1> Pendulum: oh okay :) hows it going anyway? <Pendulum> okay. how're you? <paul_h1> Pendulum: okay :) job hunting at the mo. how's the ubuntu a11y effort going? I did a successful upgrade to Maverick with Orca the other day :) <TheMuso> Pendulum: Yes, it doesn't work. <TheMuso> not completely anyway. GNOME pieces, like network manager/the indicator menus/nautilus work, but the main unity shell lauren32@example.com. <paul_h1> is this the netbook UI? <TheMuso> yes <Pendulum> TheMuso: ah, okay. Someone asked about it on the list so I figured I'd ask around <Pendulum> paul_h1: well, we're gearing up to figure out what we want to talk about at UDS and what we want to do this cycle <TheMuso> I'll reply as well <Pendulum> I'm starting to think QA is more and more important between the whole Orca & Unity thing and a problem that came up on the list a couple weeks ago with the accessible installer <Pendulum> or, rather, that it's a role we should do more of <TheMuso> Agreed. Pitty under normal circumstances, I can't give enough time to that. <Pendulum> yeah <Pendulum> I wish I had a better ability to test things like Orca because I think they're where we have more issues (opposed to the software I use which has less integration issues and more issues directly with the software, although I've heard it's fixed in Maverick, anyway) <Pendulum> and breaking things is fun ;-) <paul_h1> I don't think that maverick can be installed with orca can it? I hit a wall once the webkit bit kicked in <Pendulum> paul_h1: I think that's right <paul_h1> that's why I tried a distro upgrade which luckily went well <Pendulum> yeah <Pendulum> I haven't upgraded my main machine, just my netbook (which has regular ubuntu) <TheMuso> The problem with the live installer for me, is that it doesn't yet support LVM, and I tend to always install to LVM setups on any of my machines. <paul_h1> my main work laptop is running maverick quite nicely. I'm hoping to install server edition on a machine soon <JanC> TheMuso: it might be possible to install on LVM volumes with the live CD installer if you create them first? or does it really ignore existing LVM volumes?? <TheMuso> JanC: The live installer doesn't have the patchwork at the backend to use LVM. <TheMuso> Its on the list of requested features, but not there yet., <paul_h1> TheMuso: wondering how the process of migrating vinux to use the same build process as ubuntu discs is going? <TheMuso> paul_h1: Slowly, other interests outside of work/life have kept me away from it somewhat. <paul_h1> fair enough. is this a project of yours alone? last time I looked at the ninux website I saw no indication that this was an intention of vinux for the future. are the other vinux guys part of these plans? <TheMuso> paul_h1: They know about them, but are not involved yet. Its something I am doing on my own, due to the difficulty of the process and the systems involved. Once done, I hope to completely document it, so others can learn/maintain it. <TheMuso> I decided to take this route after seeing the horrible hacky way in which vinux CDs have been produced in the past. #ubuntu-accessibility 2010-10-11 <paul_h1> TheMuso: any idea of the timescales we're talking about? I mean in terms of getting everything ready for binux to be proposed as an official variant of ubuntu and then using it to pilot changes that could then be incorporated into the main ubuntu cd? <TheMuso> paul_h1: It will never be an official variant of Ubuntu as such, its going to be a testing ground for Ubuntu accessibility. We will use the Ubuntu archive + a PPA to build disks. <dutchie> ping AlanBell and Pendulum re: persona <paul_h1> TheMuso: oh okay. so same question really. any idea as to when we can start doing this? I do realise it's something you do when you've got time :) just wondering if you have any idea on roughly how long it's gonna take :) <TheMuso> paul_h1: No ETA, its done when its done. <Pendulum> dutchie: heya <dutchie> Pendulum: any news on them? <Pendulum> dutchie: I failed to get anything done :-/ <dutchie> :( <dutchie> i did mine <Pendulum> I'm aiming for by the end of this week <Pendulum> and I think AlanBell did his <Pendulum> I've got 2 long carrides in the next 3 days so I'm going to try to work on them from the car and then stick them in the etherpad docs when I'm online <dutchie> cool# <AlanBell> Pendulum: no, I started it, but didn't get far <AlanBell> will be doing more work on it over the next week or so <AlanBell> 12:10 < gord> there is no accessibility stuff in unity for this release, it sucks, we know :( just didn't have anyone on staff to do it. we are hiring people to take care of that for 11.04 i think though <Pendulum> missing in more than just Unity. I'm really not thrilled about the whole "can't use Orca to install Maverick" thing <Pendulum> :-/ <AlanBell> yeah, but I don't know who to poke about that one! <Pendulum> no idea <Pendulum> I'm not even sure if there's been a bug filed on it yet <AlanBell> well I guess I should do another blog post comparing the Lucid install (which sucks) to the Maverick install (which is basically impossible) <Pendulum> go for it :-) <Pendulum> I suppose the good news is that it's better on the LTS? <AlanBell> kind of <Pendulum> s/better/not completely broken <AlanBell> guess it needs an accessible webkit <AlanBell> although I can see an argument for a whole separate installer for audio <AlanBell> must try vinux too <Pendulum> yeah <AlanBell> what I think would be nice is if you start the live CD without a monitor plugged in it just does an audio install <AlanBell> which would work well for the headless server in a rack scenario <Pendulum> yeah <Pendulum> okay, I'm out until probably Wednesday night or Thursday. I hope everyone has a good week! #ubuntu-accessibility 2010-10-12 <TheMuso> AlanBell: Problem with that is X. I have heard of many reports where people try to boot headless/no monitor connected, and X refuses to load due to no monitor. <JanC> X should start if you make it use the 'dummy' video driver I assume <paul_h1> hard to make it do that if you've got no monitor <JanC> I guess it could be a fallback option if X refuses to start? although, that would probably not be a good idea for most use cases... ;) <JanC> maybe a boot option <paul_h1> I don't know the origin of this thread. my point is that as someone who can't see: it's hard to know when to specify boot options when the CD is booting <TheMuso> paul_h1: AlanBell suggested that if you start the live CD without a monitor, an audio/screen reader instal is run by default... <paul_h1> TheMuso: what? since when? <TheMuso> AlanBell: It was just a suggestion. <TheMuso> paul_h1: ^^ sorry meant you <paul_h1> TheMuso: oh with you... <Pendulum> AlanBell: poke <AlanBell> hi Pendulum <Pendulum> you haven't done your Maverick attempt, right? <AlanBell> no, not yet <Pendulum> Fudge: AlanBell is the person who wrote the wonderful ranty Lucid install guide ;-) <nigelb> haha <AlanBell> ranty!! <Pendulum> AlanBell: It was a polite rant <AlanBell> I expect the Maverick one will be tbh <AlanBell> hi Fudge o/ <Fudge> hi AlanBell it was a good read mate, nice post <Fudge> im trying to do the accessible install now but the steps have changed <Fudge> well, i think they have <AlanBell> yes, I think the installer has changed quite a bit <AlanBell> I was planning to do a keystroke by keystroke guide to the installer sometime soon <Fudge> any idea where i could find out whats changed? <AlanBell> didn't want to start it until the final CD was released <Fudge> you are sighted? <AlanBell> yes, I am <Fudge> ah that would be very helpful <Fudge> uve grabbed the iso already> <AlanBell> I have the final ISO <AlanBell> I will probably go through it tomorrow evening I think <Fudge> dont guess u have some time now to take a squiz at it <Fudge> ah, understood <Fudge> its approaching 0pm here <Fudge> 9 <AlanBell> I need to rearrange some hard disks in computers first <AlanBell> actually I will have a runthrough in a virtual machine before I try it on real hardware <AlanBell> oh wow, that is rubbish <AlanBell> I will have to rethink how to do this blog post <Pendulum> AlanBell: that bad? <AlanBell> yeah <Pendulum> :( <AlanBell> I think I may do a video of it with audio if I can <AlanBell> do a screencast of the install in a vm <Pendulum> :) <AlanBell> and do the same with Lucid to compare the two <Pendulum> let me know if you want me to do captions. I should be typing-good soonish <AlanBell> getting some silver rings? <Pendulum> I get fitted on Friday! <AlanBell> yay <AlanBell> pics plz :) <Pendulum> then it depends on the insurance fight for how quickly it happens <AlanBell> I am working on getting http://moinmo.in/ThemeMarket/SimpleMente installed on wiki.ubuntu.com <AlanBell> it is a moin wiki theme with improved support for screenreaders <AlanBell> might not be perfect, but it seems to be a sound base for improving upon <charlie-tca> :-) <AlanBell> good luck with the openweek session charlie-tca, I will miss it live, but will catch the logs <charlie-tca> Thanks. I will do my best <Fudge> hi all <Fudge> AlanBell how bad is it loL <AlanBell> hi Fudge, it is totally silent :( <AlanBell> absolutely no way I could figure it out without seeing it <Fudge> are the accessibility steps still in the installer? <AlanBell> kind of <Fudge> i tried to boot it normally last night by just letting it load and it still didnt come to the party <Fudge> as when you setup orca i assume tha tyou can still restart gnome to enable the accessibility profile <AlanBell> you press space after a bit, then F5 then down 3 times (I think it is 3) <Fudge> so u dont have to choose a language now? <AlanBell> then it boots with orca, but orca can't see the installer dialog or any contents <AlanBell> oh, sorry, yes the language question first <Fudge> so i was trying to push the number 3 and enter <AlanBell> one sec, let me fire up the VM again <Fudge> no worries <Fudge> i wish i could just ssh -X to the box once installing ssh to the live cd and install over an X session <Fudge> but when ever ive tried things like that orca says inaccessible <AlanBell> ok, turn on, hit space <AlanBell> asking me for language so I hit return to select English <AlanBell> F5 for accessibility menu <AlanBell> down 3 times for Screen Reader <AlanBell> enter again to try Ubuntu without installing (it would be down+enter to go to the installer rather than to the desktop) <AlanBell> jungle drums <AlanBell> welcome to Orca <Fudge> ok im at that step <AlanBell> (which I think should be welcome to Ubuntu) <Fudge> yes true <Fudge> your post was interesting from a headless install <AlanBell> one thing I want to do is show how accessible technology is dead handy for everyone <Fudge> i think orca at gdm login is really good for small children <AlanBell> and get more people interested in it, and fixing bugs with it <paul_h1> AlanBell: Orca is saying that it is starting. it isn't just Ubuntu's screen reader <AlanBell> excellent point <Fudge> see my cd has stopped spinning now with no desktop <AlanBell> paul_h1: yes, I understand that, I just think on first boot of the live CD it should read out some useful text, starting with welcome to Ubuntu <AlanBell> then explain what Orca is <AlanBell> Fudge: you have a monitor plugged in? <Fudge> you said arrow down three times, as in to the fourth option? <Fudge> yes <AlanBell> correct <Fudge> although this box works headless with no X issues anyhow <AlanBell> the options are: None, High Contrast, Magnifier, Screen Reader, Braille Terminal, Keyboard Modifiers, On-Screen Keyboard <Fudge> i dont understand why none needs to be there <AlanBell> quite how you are supposed to select the On-Screen Keyboard option without actually having a real keyboard is a mystery <Fudge> loL <Fudge> mouse? <AlanBell> no, you can't use a mouse at this point of the installer <Fudge> once hitting space i see a bright screen with a light coloured background <AlanBell> is that right at the start of the process? <Fudge> yes <AlanBell> you might be looking at the list of languages then <AlanBell> it is getting late here, I am going to have to leave it for tonight <AlanBell> night all o/ <Fudge> thanks mate <Fudge> its morning here lol <AlanBell> Fudge: what country are you in? <Fudge> australia <Fudge> state of tasmania <AlanBell> nice <dutchie> i know people from tasmania! * AlanBell is in the UK <Fudge> mm i seem to be stuck in some prompt where arrowing around produces a pc speaker beep <Fudge> ah 10 hours ahead <Fudge> blind ppl dutchie ? <dutchie> Fudge: no, rowing people <Fudge> an X of mine used to row <Fudge> alot of nice ppl in volved in the sport <dutchie> (not that the things are mutually exclusive) * dutchie goes back to calculus <Fudge> joy :p <AlanBell> Fudge: you could ask in #ubuntu-au for someone to walk through the install with you <dutchie> well, i did ask for it by studying maths at university <Fudge> wow dutchie <Fudge> AlanBell ill prob wait for a mate to come round but thanks for suggestion <paul_h1> Fudge: which version of ubuntu are you trying to install? if it's Maverick you have no chance if you rely on Orca speech. I recommend you install Lucid then do a distro upgrade to Maverick <Fudge> i did try that nad it failed miserably lol <Fudge> its no biggy im just trying to take a peak at the new changes in it since alpha3 when i used it for a bit on my cli box <TheMuso> I don't think "welcome to..." is what should be said. "Orca is ready" is beter. <TheMuso> better <Fudge> howdy <paul_h1> TheMuso: probably, but it's splitting hairs a bit... <TheMuso> How so? <paul_h1> well I just mean that 'orca is ready' or 'welcome to orca' ... doesn't really matter. so long as you know it's running <Fudge> i think orca shoudl automatically unmute volume control if its muted <TheMuso> Fudge: No, orca should not touch volume at all, period. <TheMuso> paul_h1: Right, but welcome to orca sounds weird, contextually. <TheMuso> To me anyway. <paul_h1> TheMuso: sure, I agree. just saying it's not that important + agree totally on volume issue <TheMuso> Yeah I see your point. #ubuntu-accessibility 2010-10-13 <paul_h1> TheMuso: does the accessibility profile do anything essential to enable orca to read apps that are running as root? <TheMuso> paul_h1: It does as much as can be done yes. It adds some variables to sudoers that need to be passed through to the root session to enable orca/at-spi to listen to application activity as the root user. <paul_h1> TheMuso: thought it might. I did an install but didn't manage to get the a11y profile activated on the CD so I can't access root apps on the installed system. could you tell me what the additional lines to sudoers are please? <TheMuso> paul_h1: You running lucid or maverick? <TheMuso> If so, then you want to add the following lines to /etc/sudoers.d/a11y-sudo <paul_h1> TheMuso: just upgraded to Maverick <TheMuso> # TO allow accessibility in GTK to work with sudo. <TheMuso> Defaults env_keep = "ORBIT_SOCKETDIR XDG_SESSION_COOKIE GTK_MODULES" <TheMuso> The file needs to be set with permissions 0440 <TheMuso> I suggest using "sudo -i" to get to a root shell, and working in the root shell, so you don't break anything during the process. <TheMuso> paul_h1: Hope all that makes sense. <paul_h1> TheMuso: giving it a go now <TheMuso> You need to make sure you create the file and set permissions on the file in one sudo session, otherwise sudo will break and you won't be able to use it. You will have to reboot in recovery mode to fix it. <paul_h1> TheMuso: thank you :) working now <TheMuso> Great. <paul_h1> TheMuso: nice to see that update-manager isn't using gksu anymore <TheMuso> Yeah. <Fudge> alot of ppl failing upgrades to maverick <davidb_> monkeygoat <davidb_> err wrong number <nigelb> that was interesting <nigelb> Heya folks, charlie-tca is talking about accessiblity in Ubuntu in #ubuntu-classroom as part of UOW. Those interested can join #ubuntu-classroom and #ubuntu-classroom-chat #ubuntu-accessibility 2010-10-14 <nigelb> charlie-tca: ping ping, all set for second session? :) <charlie-tca> heh, sure <charlie-tca> I think it went pretty good, myself <nigelb> heh <nigelb> I was happy to see lots of curiosity <charlie-tca> yes, we need that to get people thinking about accessibility <Pendulum> charlie-tca: so it went well? <charlie-tca> Yes, I believe it did <Pendulum> sorry I couldn't be there, I was in a car in the middle of a 6 hr drive :( <charlie-tca> No problem <Pendulum> once I'm a bit more settled back here, I do plan on reading the logs :) <charlie-tca> We had a lot of people, and a few questions <Pendulum> awesome :) <charlie-tca> I mostly used your session from userdays, with a few things of my own thrown in <Pendulum> cool <Pendulum> and I'm glad my session was useful <Pendulum> I may have erm, possible, maybe, definitely, written it on the day ;-) <charlie-tca> It is always helpful to have some material to work with. <charlie-tca> Today is more difficult. It is the first session I will do as xubuntu project lead <Pendulum> *nods* <nigelb> charlie-tca: oh, you're xubuntu lead? I didn't know! <charlie-tca> heh, just as an interim lead, probably for two years <Pendulum> charlie-tca: that doesn't sound very interim to me <charlie-tca> We have different definitions ? <Pendulum> fair enough :) <charlie-tca> I have to figure out how to get myself approved, since we kind of left that out when we re-organized three years ago <charlie-tca> We wrote out everything except how to approve the new project lead every two years <Pendulum> oh dear <charlie-tca> A small mistake? and I was involved in that, too. We did realize it, neither did CC <charlie-tca> Rather, did not realize <nigelb> heh <Pendulum> video on website accessibility: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awldEoQ-aNQ <Pendulum> UK-based, but still kinda cool * AlanBell ponders what Pendulum just said <Pendulum> AlanBell: just meaning that everyone in it is British and some of the discussion may only really apply in places in the UK <Pendulum> although it's generally decent <AlanBell> watching it now * AlanBell <- UK based, but still kinda cool <Pendulum> AlanBell: you're generally cool :P <Pendulum> now if only I could convince Flash that she wants to help us ;-) <Pendulum> ooh, there's also a video on accessible transport/travel :) <charlie-tca> that is a really good video <AlanBell> Pendulum: you know her? <Pendulum> AlanBell: yep :) <Pendulum> AlanBell: she's the small world-story with keybuk and sladen :) <charlie-tca> Pendulum: did you blog about world accessibility day today? <Pendulum> today is world accessibility today? <charlie-tca> Um, I think so <charlie-tca> I caught a reference to it yesterday. <Pendulum> ah, that seems to be what World Standards Day is <Pendulum> I hadn't put together that it was specific to accessibility standards <charlie-tca> I think it is very confusing for everybody <Pendulum> I'd kinda worry that I'd end up ranting <charlie-tca> How do you publicize a day that is made confusing? <Pendulum> i dunno <Pendulum> but, yeah <Pendulum> my concern is that I'd end up talking about the fact that Ubuntu/Canonical seem to ignore things like web standards <AlanBell> The 41st World Standard Day on Oct. 14, 2010 will be celebrated under the theme: âStandards make the world accessible for all. <AlanBell> so there have been 40 previous days we never heard of either <charlie-tca> Maybe we did not really care about them? <Pendulum> heh <Pendulum> I only heard about this because of Flash <charlie-tca> I know. I tried not to say that yesterday <Pendulum> heh <Pendulum> yeah <Pendulum> it would be bad of me to do a question in ask sabdfl about "Today is World Standards Day with a focus this year on Accessibility, are there any plans to improve accessibility in Ubuntu and related things such as the website up to accessibility standards?" <AlanBell> nope, perfectly good question <charlie-tca> I think that would be a great question <Pendulum> nigelb: ^^ <Pendulum> yeah, but I don't want to piss people off <nigelb> go for it <Pendulum> that's kinda a leading question <AlanBell> Pendulum: do it <charlie-tca> I will ask it, if you want <nigelb> Just do it (TM) <Pendulum> and I'm worried it'd reflect badly on me <AlanBell> it won't <AlanBell> perfectly good question, and one that should be asked by you as a leader of the team <charlie-tca> +1 <charlie-tca> Team lead sometimes has to ask the difficult questions <charlie-tca> And, it is a question all of us would like to know the answer to. It is not like it is a one person desire <charlie-tca> or wish or "lets raise some hell" type question <AlanBell> I have to go out now to get the kids from school, Pendulum, please ask that question o/ <Pendulum> okay, okay :P <charlie-tca> I'll be waiting for it. <nigelb> ok, it has started <Pendulum> question has been asked, we'll see if it gets answered <Pendulum> I kinda had to dump the question now because i have to leave soon <charlie-tca> That's the only way to get them in anyway. <nigelb> that's good news, from mark <Pendulum> well, it's kinda required <Pendulum> unity doesn't work with Orca <charlie-tca> What? it is touchpad, not accessibility <nigelb> oh, yuck <charlie-tca> It's just more rhetoric <charlie-tca> "we support it, as long as it doesn't get in the way" <Pendulum> webkit problem, i think <charlie-tca> But if we could get mark pushing it as hard as unity or ayatana, we would have it working * charlie-tca shuts up and hides again <Pendulum> charlie-tca: what do you think I'm hoping for? ;-) <charlie-tca> I know, just frustrated, I guess. <charlie-tca> they will push touchpad, and if it happens to help with accessibility, it's called "We did IT! everyone can use this, regardless of disablitiy" <nigelb> charlie-tca: heh <Pendulum> charlie-tca: how'd it go? <charlie-tca> not bad. Not as good as I hoped, though. <charlie-tca> audience doesn't seem to be there, maybe? Or I was not getting their interest this time. <nigelb> dang, I stepped out from work -> home just when you started <nigelb> need to look at logs <charlie-tca> I think I was boring today <AlanBell> evening <AlanBell> so not a spectacular answer from Mark, but not a disaster either <dutchie> AlanBell: eh? <AlanBell> dutchie: in the openweek session <dutchie> yeah, just read back <Pendulum> it felt a bit PR-y to me, but was honestly more involved than I expected <AlanBell> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/10/14/%23ubuntu-classroom.html#t15:10 <AlanBell> it would be good to get more bugs filed against the website for accessibility <AlanBell> not sure there are enough against the new design <AlanBell> rant posted, off to bed now o/ <AlanBell> if any web designers turn up, do be nice to them :) #ubuntu-accessibility 2010-10-15 <charlie-tca> If that link in the emails is real for a new wiki design, it really falls flat on accessibility for the visually impaired. If this an example of Canonical helping us, we better run fast! <nigelb> AlanBell: neat rant <Pendulum> charlie-tca: maybe e-mail back and then start filing bugs? <nigelb> clearly you're fighting with a designer "I don't like fluid layouts" he says <charlie-tca> What about text that is visible. Does he hate that too? <charlie-tca> I could not read more than half a page a day with that layout <charlie-tca> It makes my eyes burn <charlie-tca> and the text does not grow lauren32@example.com. It distorts instead <charlie-tca> Do we really want an accessibility wiki that visually impaired uses will find really hard to read? <Pendulum> nope <nigelb> Pendulum: I wonder if we should mail Jane about it. <AlanBell> Pendulum: filing bugs is the place to start, as per sabdfl's response to your question <AlanBell> I have filed bug 654643 <ubot2> Launchpad bug 654643 in ubuntu-website "low contrast text bad for low vision users (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/654643 <AlanBell> and bug 654625 <ubot2> Launchpad bug 654625 in ubuntu-website "Width is not fluid (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/654625 <AlanBell> maybe if someone could go through https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website/+bugs and tag things with accessability as appropriate that would be useful <AlanBell> and file any new bugs you think of <AlanBell> then we can write the code and do the merge requests <AlanBell> which will either be accepted, which is great, or not, which means we escallate the issue <AlanBell> hmm, I can't tag things on launchpad at the moment <AlanBell> nigelb: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website/+bug/654643 trying to add an accessibility tag to this bug <ubot2> Launchpad bug 654643 in ubuntu-website "low contrast text bad for low vision users (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Undecided,In progress] <nigelb> AlanBell: I just added the tag <nigelb> AlanBell: I don't have any more rights on that project than you do, so you sohuld be able to do it (is javascript enabled?) <AlanBell> how odd, doesn't work for me in firefox or chromium <AlanBell> on bugs.edge.launchpad.net or bugs.launchpad.net <nigelb> that's strange. <nigelb> are you clickin on the yellow button and waiting? <AlanBell> click yellow button, turns instantly to an input field with light-wiki in it <AlanBell> I add ", Accessibility" to the end of the field <nigelb> AlanBell: then click the tick mark <AlanBell> click the green tick, both ticks vanish, it stays an input field <AlanBell> doesn't go back to the blue links <nigelb> AlanBell: hrm, strange <nigelb> I tagged it like 4 times <nigelb> thansk to my very poor spelling <nigelb> as evidenced ^^ <nigelb> :p <AlanBell> :) <AlanBell> I can tag other bugs <nigelb> LOL <AlanBell> I just tagged bug 537408 <ubot2> Launchpad bug 537408 in ubuntu-community "Ubuntu Community Support is patchy and has no recommended guidelines (affects: 1) (heat: 16)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/537408 <nigelb> that one's going to be fun <AlanBell> ah, got it working now <nigelb> strangely not, I wonder why it hasn't caught the eye of *cough* tabloids *cough* <AlanBell> tags are space separated not comma separated <nigelb> AlanBell: aha, you didn'te tell me you used comma <AlanBell> 07:53 < AlanBell> I add ", Accessibility" to the end of the field <AlanBell> did too! <nigelb> Right, I should learn to read then. <nigelb> I missed that bit. <AlanBell> doesn't like capitals in tags either <AlanBell> ok, been through all the bugs <AlanBell> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website/+bugs?field.tag=accessibility <AlanBell> please file new ones <Pendulum> AlanBell: charlie is our official bug person <AlanBell> yup <AlanBell> and Mark Shuttleworth told us to file bugs, so it is only fair that we do so :) <AlanBell> lots of bugs <nigelb> yes, load 'em up <Pendulum> should I file some bugs about the fact that there's no in-built accessibility features on the main site (no way to change contrast, etc.) and no page explaining what their accessibility options for the website are? <Pendulum> AlanBell: has anyone responded to your e-mail? <AlanBell> no <Pendulum> AlanBell: I assume that was to my 2nd question? <AlanBell> of course :) <AlanBell> yes is the answer to your first question <AlanBell> https://lists.canonical.com/archives/ubuntu-website/2010-October/thread.html <AlanBell> it isn't a very active list <Pendulum> the real question is do I file the bug as the website not complying to W3C Accessibility standards, or do I file bugs as multiple issues <AlanBell> do both <AlanBell> one referencing the standard, then file a separate bug for each thing that could be fixed as a unit of work <Pendulum> of course, now this means I really need to read all the details of the standard ;-) <AlanBell> and get Flash to help point out missing bits <Pendulum> without charging me a consultant's fee :P <Pendulum> (since accessible webdesign and evaluations are what she does as her job) <AlanBell> and a career direction that would be interesting for you to explore :) <Pendulum> well, I'd need to learn design first :P <Pendulum> and I'm not sure it actually pays that well. I think she mostly does it because it's flexible (Flash also has EDS) <vish> PendulumÂ¦ have you seen Â» http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lqfQi7146U ? <Pendulum> I don't think I'm going to click that link... <vish> hehe ;p <vish> just not to seem out of context : <vish> * Pendulum is still avoiding the cake song :) <vish> so /me tried to trick her :( <Pendulum> vish: I'm well aware you hang out in -community-team so it was hard to not notice the timing ;) <vish> PendulumÂ¦ yea, bad move on my part, i should have waited a day :( <AlanBell> nigelb: how do I find out who should review this? https://code.launchpad.net/~alanbell/dasher/bugfix-lp-579181/+merge/37528 <AlanBell> the dasher conversation is going in interesting directions <AlanBell> the dasher setup in launchpad is a bit of a mess, it imports from an obsolete SVN gnome repository, but Ubuntu gets packages from Debian <AlanBell> nobody is looking after the bugs reported, nobody is merging stuff <AlanBell> so we are going to discuss the adopt an upstream stuff with jcastro in -motu shortly <Pendulum> AlanBell: has discoussion started yet? <AlanBell> oh yes <AlanBell> gnome bug 632226 <ubot2> Gnome bug 632226 in core "Dasher is hard to use to operate IRC clients such as irssi" [Normal,Unconfirmed] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=632226 <Pendulum> AlanBell: yeah, I joined channel so I feel like I'm sorta figuring out what's happening <charlie-tca> You will have to let me know what happened. I got too many things going on at once again <AlanBell> the conversation is continuing upstream with the core developers from Cambridge who develop on the gnome code for Dasher <charlie-tca> Then there is hope! <AlanBell> yes, and hope for the wider collection of bugs, not just this one <AlanBell> the developers there actually appear to be fairly active <AlanBell> charlie-tca: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website/+bugs?field.tag=accessibility <charlie-tca> Wow <AlanBell> can you have a flick through that lot at some point and file bugs for any other stuff you encounter on the websites <charlie-tca> I will look them over and add any others I fine? <dutchie> that is fairly impressive <charlie-tca> s/fine/find <AlanBell> I went through the existing bugs and tagged stuff with accessibility if it looked like an issue (contrast, size etc) <charlie-tca> Oh, the right answer is yes <AlanBell> nice stuff about website bugs is fixing them is within my capability, I can code it, do merge requests then get cross if they are rejected :) <AlanBell> with applications written in C that are segfaulting I get stuck quickly! <charlie-tca> Great! I'll have a close look today. thank you <charlie-tca> I did hold off cussing them out for the new website design. <charlie-tca> Not sure I can word it effectively yet <Pendulum> maco: you and I really need to start doing that dasher patching we talked about doing at some point ;-) <AlanBell> totally agree, but the bugs need to be filed before we can get cross about them <Pendulum> yeah * Pendulum goes off to get something that will pull her head off her neck ;-) <Pendulum> catch y'all later! <AlanBell> charlie-tca: if you see any bugs in the list marked new please feel free to confirm them <charlie-tca> I will. I will go through each one to try and confirm as many as possible. <AlanBell> also have a look at http://ubuntu-news.org/ <AlanBell> http://www.ubuntu.com/ <AlanBell> http://manpages.ubuntu.com/ <AlanBell> http://loco.ubuntu.com/ <AlanBell> http://summit.ubuntu.com/ (although I fully expect the schedule to be a disaster, the new ical feeds are a good thing) <Pendulum> yeah <Pendulum> brb. upgrading :) <charlie-tca> At least the text shows up on those. On that new wiki template from yesterday, it didn't <charlie-tca> Is http://www.ubuntu.com/ using iframes? The text in the three boxes across the page does not increase with the rest <charlie-tca> or maybe it just starts really small? <AlanBell> works for me in firefox and chromium <AlanBell> and no, not iframes <charlie-tca> Whatever they used, the text stays small <charlie-tca> The rest work, except the map grows really big and wide. But, overall, the design works okay <charlie-tca> They took the attachments down that were in yesterdays message <AlanBell> oh, yes, there was a mail about that <AlanBell> "Hi, there has been a mis-understanding. I was under the impression that this guideline was finalized but I have just been told it is not ready for you to implement." <AlanBell> bit of an oops there! <charlie-tca> thank goodness. It doesn't really seem usable to me. <charlie-tca> Hoping it was an old draft, and not really the new design <AlanBell> well I am glad I got my rant in at that point, maybe it will come back better #ubuntu-accessibility 2010-10-16 <nigelb> AlanBell: I liked the other nick better :p <AlanBell> is there a bug filed for the accessible installer in Maverick? * AlanBell is finding out about packaging recipes and daily builds https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~alanbell/+recipe/daily-dash-of-dasher #ubuntu-accessibility 2010-10-18 <Pendulum> AlanBell: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/multimedia-dx-n-virtual-keyboard/ * AlanBell subscribes <Fudge> good question #ubuntu-accessibility 2010-10-19 <AlanBell> I think a UDS session on the accessible installer would be good <AlanBell> wednesday 16:15 https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/packageselection-dx-n-unity-a11y #ubuntu-accessibility 2010-10-20 <Pendulum> we have a blueprint: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+spec/ubuntutheproject-n-improving-accessibility-devel-and-info <Pendulum> AlanBell: TheMuso nigelb maco ^^ <Pendulum> bah, new link for blueprint: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+spec/ubuntutheproject-community-n-improving-accessibility-devel-and-info * nigelb subscribes <dam63> Hi/Bonsoir <dam63> Sorry for my bad english <dam63> I would like to find a software to help me to communicate with deaf person, <dam63> I heard about Sphinx but don't find * dam63 meant "in French" <dam63> Somebody knows one <dam63> ? <Pendulum> dam63: what exactly are you looking for? <Pendulum> Do you want something that will take what you're saying and type it? <Pendulum> (is there a reason you can't just type it?) <dam63> Pendulum, You're right i'm writing on a blackboard for the moment, personnaly I can type on a keyboard (really!) but I'd like to talk with my friend with 'subtitles' Very more friendly imho, <Pendulum> there's no good voice recognition software for Linux right now, sadly :( <dam63> My best wish will be to have a 3+ conversation with IRC style <damien> blablabla <dam63> <marc> blabliblo <dam63> Do you think I can help for this <dam63> voice recognition software for linux <Pendulum> a completely non-technical idea for the long term, but does your friend sign? have you considered learning sign language? <dam63> My friend has 82 y-o and doesn't know sign language <Pendulum> dam63: probably. I'm not really familiar with who is actively working on it other than the major projects being sphinx and julius <dam63> It should be good but I don't know if it's hard to learn <Pendulum> you might want to contact one of those to see how you could help? <dam63> Ok, i heard about sphinx but not julius <dam63> i wil check <dam63> Thanks you Pendulum :) <Pendulum> you're welcome :) #ubuntu-accessibility 2010-10-21 <AlanBell> Pendulum: in dasher preferences on the language tab if you change the direction to custom can you activate the radio buttons below? <Pendulum> AlanBell: no <Pendulum> looks like a bug <AlanBell> ok <AlanBell> did I tell you about the daily dash of dasher I set up? <Pendulum> no <AlanBell> my PPA now has daily builds of dasher from the gnome git tree <AlanBell> which was a lot easier to set up than it sounds <AlanBell> bug 664750 <ubot2> Launchpad bug 664750 in dasher (Ubuntu) "custom direction radio buttons don't activate (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/664750 <AlanBell> feel free to confirm and comment and I will forward it upstream <Pendulum> can I confirm even though I don't usually do bug stuff? <AlanBell> yes, you certainly can <AlanBell> anyone can confirm apart from the person who submitted the bug <AlanBell> I filed it, you have independently tested it and can confirm it. <AlanBell> Bug #637747 <ubot2> AlanBell: Bug 637747 on http://launchpad.net/bugs/637747 is private <Pendulum> AlanBell: done on that bug <Pendulum> what was the 2nd bug? <AlanBell> it was referenced on another one, I think it is an automatic crash log or something, I just wanted to see if ubot2 could see any more of it than I can <Pendulum> AlanBell: also, I got an answer from Patrick re: the direct input in 3.0 issue. I'll forward it to you because I only 1/2 understand it <Pendulum> AlanBell: btw, do you have a preferred e-mail? I have 3 of them for you in my address book :P <AlanBell> they all end up in the same place really! <AlanBell> lauren32@example.com I guess <Pendulum> heh, too late. I sent to the first one on my list :P <AlanBell> got it <AlanBell> oh my, that is quite a suggestion <AlanBell> ok, so lets put aside the suggestion that users recompile it with a different build option for the moment! <AlanBell> however his basic point is that the "typing into apps" bit doesn't use at-spi <Pendulum> yeah <Pendulum> which I don't think has been clear in any of the gnome documentation, so at least that I can make clear for them <AlanBell> I think from the mail he sent me the at-spi bit tells dasher which window has focus <Pendulum> and he failed to answer my "are you thinking of porting to dbus" question <AlanBell> Sladen is joining in nicely on the gnome bug :) <Pendulum> AlanBell: well he was the person who filed the bug for me originally :) <Pendulum> he's poked me to comment <Pendulum> I'm just failing to remember my bugzilla login info <AlanBell> yup <charlie-tca> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/dasher/+bug/637747 is no longer private <ubot2> Launchpad bug 637747 in dasher (Ubuntu) "dasher crashed with SIGSEGV in Dasher33ec:265c:71fe:e26d:2682:4ec2:aaa1:99absherModel33ec:265c:71fe:e26d:2682:4ec2:aaa1:99abHandleOutput() (affects: 1) (heat: 12)" [Medium,New] <charlie-tca> apport bug reports are automatically marked private until we can check to make sure there is no private information in them <Pendulum> AlanBell: that's the one that was fixed in Maverick, yes? <Pendulum> AlanBell: okay, have found my username. now to try to remember password... <Pendulum> argh. it's telling me that neither e-mail address I could have used is a valid log-in <charlie-tca> AlanBell, Pendulum : if you let me know these bug numbers, I can make them public for us <Pendulum> charlie-tca: we're talking about some gnome bugs, mostly <AlanBell> Pendulum: that is similar to the crash that was fixed, but it is new <AlanBell> thanks charlie-tca <AlanBell> https://launchpad.net/~alanbell/+archive/ppa dasher 4.11 built for Lucid daily (Maverick build is not working for some reason right now) <Pendulum> I notice the GTK errors that show up if you run direct mode were reported 2 years ago as a gnome bug and still haven't been fixed :-/ <Pendulum> I really wish I knew how to help <Pendulum> obviously I need to relearn coding ;-) <Pendulum> or at least C <Pendulum> (I have yet to see a good argument about why I should relearn java ;-) ) <AlanBell> would dasher work well with multitouch or on a tablet thingummy? <Pendulum> it does :) <AlanBell> ok, so there are about 3 squillion touch sessions at UDS <AlanBell> it will be a touchy feely UDS <AlanBell> and they should be talking about Dasher <Pendulum> or at least, it works well on my mac trackpad and it works well with my wacom tablet (when I have Ubuntu set up correctly for the Wacom) <AlanBell> so rather than learning C, get 20 C programmers excited by it and see what happens <Pendulum> but I liked C <Pendulum> ;-) <Pendulum> but, yes, I'm going to try <AlanBell> do both then! <Pendulum> not to mention the on screen keyboard session <Pendulum> I am sad that sladen isn't making it to UDS :( <AlanBell> oh, didn't realise, that is a shame <AlanBell> it will be light on Brits all round <Pendulum> something where he would have been taking a boat that left 4 October, but then he didn't make it on the boat or something <AlanBell> whut? he was taking a boat to Florida?? <Pendulum> yes <Pendulum> because this time of year if you book last minute, transatlantic crossings to the US are cheap <Pendulum> because places are moving their boats from the Med to the Caribbean <Pendulum> s/places/companies <AlanBell> wow <AlanBell> https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~alanbell/+recipe/daily-dash-of-dasher <AlanBell> http://www.doctort.org/adam/nerd-notes/x11-fake-keypress-event.html this is the kind of thing that dasher does on the inside with that XTestFakeKeyEvent stuff #ubuntu-accessibility 2010-10-22 <AlanBell> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/appdevs-dx-n-probabilistic-input <Pendulum> AlanBell: aww, you waited for me to get up, didn't you <AlanBell> just got back from a client actually <Pendulum> heh <Pendulum> just good timing then? <AlanBell> yup <AlanBell> funny bunch they are too! #ubuntu-accessibility 2010-10-25 <Pendulum> TheMuso: yay! I'm glad you're doing the Unity accessibility stuff! <Pendulum> AlanBell: dutchie
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