@Xan (Xan) posted a new topic, subject "Apparently gay people can't have sex". It read:

   My friend Matt, who is ultra conservative (he referred to himself that way) and I were having a friendly debate today in study hall. As all debates between Liberals and Conservatives seem to go the subject of gay marriage came up. Basically he claimed that marriage was all about sex. He claimed that only a man and woman making love to each other constituted sex and that anal and oral didn't count. He claimed that sex as he defined it was the definition EVERYONE had of sex. After that he said that gay marriage was an oxymoron because of what I've said. I should note that he is all for Civil Unions and doesn't really have anything against gay people personally or so he claims. He's also a pretty nice guy despite our differences of opinion.
    
    I wonder how you can't have something against gay people personally if you think that how and who they love is immoral and wrong. To me that sounds pretty personal.
    
    Also I don't understand how Christians can say that in the bible “God is love” but yet two men or two women loving each other can be wrong. Isn't love a good thing? I mean if God is love that must make love a good thing, right?
    
    I guess I'll never fully understand people.
    
    Note: It was a friendly debate. We weren't screaming at each other or anything like that.

@MEBuckner (MEBuckner) replied

    > He claimed that only a man and woman making love to each other constituted sex and that anal and oral didn't count.
    
    Hmmm…wasn't that Bill Clinton's argument?

@Xan (Xan) replied

    MEBuckner:
    
    > Hmmm…wasn't that Bill Clinton's argument?
    
    I didn't think of that till after study hall. I can never seem to think up witty replies till after the fact.

After which, @gobear (gobear) added

    Xan:
    
    > My friend Matt, who is ultra conservative (he referred to himself that way) and I were having a friendly debate today in study hall. As all debates between Liberals and Conservatives seem to go the subject of gay marriage came up. Basically he claimed that marriage was all about sex.
    
    No, marriage is all about _property_ , specifically financial rights and obligations. Laws dealing with marriage address taxation and inheritance, and do not anywhere mention sex. OTOH, your friend is young and can't be expected to know about these things.
    
    > He claimed that only a man and woman making love to each other constituted sex and that anal and oral didn't count.
    
    He and former president Clinton are both wrong.
    
    > He claimed that sex as he defined it was the definition EVERYONE had of sex.
    
    Wrong again.
    
    > After that he said that gay marriage was an oxymoron because of what I've said. I should note that he is all for Civil Unions and doesn't really have anything against gay people personally or so he claims. He's also a pretty nice guy despite our differences of opinion.
    > 
    > I wonder how you can't have something against gay people personally if you think that how and who they love is immoral and wrong. To me that sounds pretty personal.
    
    It is. And I can assure your friend that at least 2 gay people had sex yesterday (and again this morning).
    
    > Also I don't understand how Christians can say that in the bible “God is love” but yet two men or two women loving each other can be wrong. Isn't love a good thing? I mean if God is love that must make love a good thing, right?
    
    Christians do not believe in love, they believe in power divorced from virtue and control without limits.  
    [/QUOTE]

@LibrarySpy (LibrarySpy) replied

    I actually heard this argument from a liberal, gay-supporting, atheist, educated college friend. “Penetration is sex. Oral and anal are just warm-ups. Ergo, you, as a lesbian, will never have a truly satisfying sexual experience.”
    
    :smack:
    
    **Xan** , he's probably a really nice guy. Just smile and nod and realize people are just wack.
    
    gobear:
    
    > Christians do not believe in love, they believe in power divorced from virtue and control without limits.
    
    That was completely unnecessary, and will result in an ugly hijack. Tsk.

Then @Lord_Ashtar (Lord Ashtar) said

    gobear:
    
    > Christians do not believe in love, they believe in power divorced from virtue and control without limits.
    
    [/QUOTE]
    
    You can't be serious.

So @whiterabbit (whiterabbit) replied

    My definition of sex is when (usually) two people are engaging in activities meant to lead to orgasm(s). This could be anything from mutual masturbation to full-out vaginal or anal intercourse. Oral counts. So does solo masturbation. Or, obviously, more than two people.
    
    I thought this was a pretty common outlook these days. Am I wrong?

@gobear (gobear) replied

    My apologies for the side-comment on Christian belief. I'm not sorry for the content and have no problems defending it in another thread, but I don't want to sidetrack this discussion. So just ignore it.

After which, @Xan (Xan) added

    whiterabbit:
    
    > My definition of sex is when (usually) two people are engaging in activities meant to lead to orgasm(s). This could be anything from mutual masturbation to full-out vaginal or anal intercourse. Oral counts. So does solo masturbation. Or, obviously, more than two people.
    > 
    > I thought this was a pretty common outlook these days. Am I wrong?
    
    I did too, but apparently I was wrong.

So @Baker (Baker) replied

    gobear:
    
    > Christians do not believe in love, they believe in power divorced from virtue and control without limits.
    
    Hate to tell you this, but you're wrong, in many qhamilton@example.com. I think you are letting your oft-stated dislike of religion, especially Christianity, cloud your thinking. It's too bad that a poster like you who often has interesting and witty things to say, has such a blind spot.

Then @Bryan_Ekers (Bryan Ekers) said

    If it comes up again, ask him if a paraplegic can be legally married, heterosexually or otherwise.

So @Tinkertoy (Tinkertoy) replied

    Xan:
    
    > anal and oral didn't count.
    
    So after he gets married and he finds out that his wife is blowing all the men in their neighborhood she won't really be cheating?

Then @Ravenman (Ravenman) said

    oh, he's probably excluding various forms of messing around as sex in order to preserve his own virtue. Then remind him that Woody Allen said that sex is only dirty if done correctly.

After which, @sweetfreak (sweetfreak) added

    Xan:
    
    > He claimed that only a man and woman making love to each other constituted sex and that anal and oral didn't count.
    
    If this is true, I think it brings my slut score of 52% down to about 10%.  
    I feel so squeaky clean now.

Then @leander (leander) said

    For those who care, here's a link to a thread requesting an explanation from **gobear**.

So @Xan (Xan) replied

    For the record, I'd like to state that I don't think _all_ Christians are like how I stated in my OP. I should have been clearer in my OP and said “some Christians” instead of making it seem like I meant all of them. I'm sorry if I've offended anyone.

After which, @swampbear (swampbear) added

    gobear:
    
    > It is. And I can assure your friend that at least 2 gay people had sex yesterday (and again this morning).
    
    Make that four gay people who has sex yesterday. Believe me, he **knew** he had had sex when it was over.
    
    Oh and that “this morning” thing? Braggart!

@Miller (Miller) replied

    Let's bump that up to six.

So @SolGrundy (SolGrundy) replied

    Miller:
    
    > Let's bump that up to six.
    
    All you fagosexuals always going on about how much sex you've had. Disgusting. Why can't you just be like normal decent people and have a flirt thread? {{{HUGS!}}}  8b7c:f320:99b9:690f:4595:cd17:293a:c069smooch8b7c:f320:99b9:690f:4595:cd17:293a:c069
    
    Xan:
    
    > Basically he claimed that marriage was all about sex.
    
    And that's the point where I would've told your friend Matt that he's an idiot and any remaining “arguments” he had were completely meaningless. “Nice guy” or not.
    
    If it were just about sex, there'd be no arguments other than “Mind your own business and stop beating up gay people.”
    
    If it were just about property or visitation rights, then civil unions would be fine.
    
    And if it were about Christianity, or in fact about religion at all, then people would realize that virtue and love are separate from, and more important than, sex.
    
    Anyone who's shallow enough to say that marriage is about nothing more than sex or making babies, doesn't deserve to be married, and sure as _hell_ doesn't have any business telling me what I can and can't do.

After which, @Hamish (Hamish) added

    If we can't have sex, what do they hate us for? Aren't we then squeaky-clean virgins?

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