@Beyond_Beyond posted a new topic, subject "US Non Military or Police, Government Bodies Tooling Up with Automatic Weapons?". It read:

   I've heard several government institutions like the IRS, Railway Retirement Board, VA, Social Security Admin, Forest Services, National Parks Service, Fish and Wildlife, Treasury, Dept of Health, not directly involved with active military or law enforcement are tooling up with millions of $ worth of guns and ammo, including fully automatic weapons, "Assault "weapons(Ar-15s) and silencers, and hollow points, and body armour. Of course they are allowed high capacity magazines as well.
    
    Government Agencies Have Been Stockpiling Billions of Dollars of Guns and Ammo for Decades - YouTube
    
    IRS Buys Full Auto P90 Tactical Rifles!! What Are They Preparing For?! - YouTube
    
    US Dept. Of Education Buys 40 Cal. Glocks & BODY ARMOR!! Why Are Agencies Arming Themselves?! - YouTube
    
    I can't think of any legitimate reason for a government to authorise this sort of behavior. Sounds like preparation for a civil war by Tyrants.
    
    Change my mind?

@zecarlo replied

    They are involved with law enforcement. The VA has its own police force, for example. Your own source says they have been doing so for decades. Why is it an issue now? IMO, I'd be more concerned about the financial aspect, couldn't existing agencies provide law enforcement support, than some conspiracy. But military contractors have to eat too.

So @Beyond_Beyond replied

    zecarlo:
    
    > Why is it an issue now?
    
    Because there has been a noted increase. There's absolutely no legitimate argument in favor of most of these institutions needing such weapons…Railway Retirement Board!!!  
    It also doesn't justify the use of fully automatic weapons by the fucking IRS…WTF. I don't know the legality of hollow points in the States, but they are against the Geneva convention in military conflicts. You don't use them unless you're intending to do maximum lethal damage.
    
    Its also happening at the same time that Governments are pushing for weapons bans in the hands of the public, infringements on 2A.

@zecarlo replied

    Hollow points are legal in the US and the US military does use them.
    
    Like I asked, why is this an issue now? Redundancy for the sake of government overspending is the real problem.

So @Beyond_Beyond replied

    I would still ask you why bodies that do little to no active duty need to be armed like police or military that need these tools on a daily basis.
    
    I could kind of see maybe one or two bodies independently trying this kind of shit on, but this appears to be systemic, and probably organised on a broad scale. Once again IRS needing full auto weapons???
    
    At what point would you be alarmed, fragmentary grenades? 50cals pintle mounted on Fish and Game vehicles? RPGs? How about a tactical nuke?
    
    If the head of the snake didn't want this shit happening it wouldn't be.

So @zecarlo replied

    Beyond_Beyond:
    
    > I would still ask you why bodies that do little to no active duty need to be armed like police or military that need these tools on a daily basis.
    
    You could always use Google. And I'm sure those questions were asked years ago when they first requested law enforcement powers.
    
    But, since you seem to lack imagination, picture the IRS during an asset forfeiture. Armed backup in those situations doesn't seem that ridiculous.
    
    Beyond_Beyond:
    
    > IRS needing full auto weapons???
    
    P90s are submachine guns.
    
    Beyond_Beyond:
    
    > 50cals pintle mounted on Fish and Game vehicles? RPGs?
    
    I suppose if I were a trout or an elk I would be worried.

So @atlas13 replied

    zecarlo:
    
    > and the US military does use them.
    
    I mean, technically that's correct, but it's pretty rare. Only time hollowpoints are really authorized is for Military Police while operating stateside. No foreign deployed unit is firing hollow points anywhere, huge issue with international law there, we don't even keep any in our posession when we deploy.
    
    I realize this doesn't really add much to the convo, but just wanted to pitch that in here, as a guy who just finished up an Ordnance Officer gig.

Then @zecarlo said

    atlas13:
    
    > No foreign deployed unit is firing hollow points anywhere, huge issue with international law there, we don't even keep any in our position when we head deploy.
    
    We never signed the part of the Conventions that banned expanding ammunition. Snipers use it.

After which, @atlas13 added

    We never signed a lot of treaties we still tacitly follow. Same reason our Navy floats around calling the Chinese and Iranians on their actions in violation of UNCLOS while we ourselves aren't statutory in it. Same practice is true for hollow points. You are entirely correct that we don't have any legal contract that says we can't use them, but in practice, we don't use them because we want the credibility on our side when we site the Geneva conventions towards other governments or non-state actors, wether either of us are signatory or not.
    
    I think you are right about the snipers part. What can I say, I never worked with snipers lol.

@marine77 replied

    Former SWAT sniper here. Ask away.

To which @SkyzykS replied

    Beyond_Beyond:
    
    > Change my mind?
    
    Probably a budgetary work around. One dept. doesnt have enough in its budget, so another buys what it needs or some crap.

@zecarlo replied

    SkyzykS:
    
    > One dept. doesnt have enough in its budget, so another buys what it needs or some crap.
    
    Or maybe they all have too much and need to spend it on something. It's probably a case of wanting to keep everything in house without having other agencies looking over your shoulder. You have your own SOP and autonomy. It's like those cop shows when the FBI takes over a case and the cops have to take orders from them.

@SkyzykS replied

    Bureaucracies “need” to protect their budgets lest they be reduced. If they come in under, they get slashed.
    
    Best way to do that is to spend it all and then some on what ever. Paper, guns, computers, any regular recurring expenses, etc.
    
    Burn all the money to make sure they get more.

So @FlatsFarmer replied

    You must not be from the United States! The Treasury Department not involved in Law Enforcement? Who do you think took down the most ruthless gangster in American history?
    
    G-Men have had fully automatic weapons since the 1930s. This is old, old news.

After which, @Beyond_Beyond added

    zecarlo:
    
    > P90s are submachine guns.
    
    Yes they are, I did watch every episode of Stargate, so I am aware. Submachine guns funnily enough are full auto capable.

@Beyond_Beyond replied

    The 1930's were a different place, they had good reason to have full auto in those days, as anyone in the public with enough cash could legally buy a Thompson or a even better a BAR.  
    Now you have the FBI, Homeland security, State based bureaus of investigation,Secret Service, DEA, US Marshalls, State Troopers, City Police, Sheriffs Dept. I probably forgot or don't even know a bunch of other, legitimate law enforcement that deal with violent crime on a daily basis that could also justify purchase of such weapons.
    
    All the other institutions mentioned in earlier posts, are basically pen pushers, admin, and management. They don't need military grade ordnance, because they barely ever leave the office. I 'd bet most time they get local or federal assistance, trained specialist that already have the arsenal, to do their muscle work and enforce laws.

To which @unreal24278 replied

    Daniel Andrews in Aus millitarised the victorian police force during covid did he not? @Beyond_Beyond
    
    Law forbids state PM's to do this, but he had to because there were five HUNDRED covid cases daily at the time. Now the case rate is one of the highest per capita in the world but lets conveniently forget about how this guy orchestrated the shut down of Victoria for the better part of two years
    
    Its happening all over, Australia lets the police get away with practically anything… more survelliance… more public intrusions.
    
    Metripolitan Australian cities are some of the most over-policed cities in the world. Random traffic stops, drug tests looking tor whether you've taken something three days ago, public strip searches, speed cameras everywhere, no knock warrants (implemented in NSW depending on circumstance), random police house checks if you've got a firearm, tickets for just about everything like playing soccer at beaches, random breathlyzer testing on people in canoes, banning protests, radar guns, survelliance in stores with facial recognition and more.
    
    But god forbid you actually need help, like someone has broken into your home and stolen your belongings or something… then we can't help you. Wait… didn't I see you driving 53km/hr in a 50 zone? I can help you by writing up a ticket for you!!!

After which, @Beyond_Beyond added

    Yep, Its pretty bad in Aus. At least the ATO haven't started arming themselves.

Then @NickViar said

    Beyond_Beyond:
    
    > Submachine guns funnily enough are full auto capable.
    
    I was hoping someone would point this out.

So @fitafter40 replied

    Not only that, Bill Gates is buying up farmland and China is buying properties too

After which, @zecarlo added

    Beyond_Beyond:
    
    > Submachine guns funnily enough are full auto capable.
    
    But they fire pistol rounds.
    
    NickViar:
    
    > I was hoping someone would point this out.
    
    See above.
    
    Someone reads “automatic weapon” and instantly pictures Rambo with an M60.

So @zecarlo replied

    Beyond_Beyond:
    
    > FBI, Homeland security, State based bureaus of investigation,Secret Service, DEA, US Marshalls, State Troopers, City Police, Sheriffs Dept.
    
    Beyond_Beyond:
    
    > All the other institutions mentioned in earlier posts, are basically pen pushers, admin, and management.
    
    The FBI, DEA, etc., all have their fair share of pencil pushers. The US military as well.

@marine77 replied

    We have WWII and older era Thompsons in our armory still. Some have notches in the stock. Awesome pieces of history. We bring them out for Foundation shoots. They ride up hard.

@atlas13 replied

    marine77:
    
    > We have WWII and older era Thompsons in our armory still
    
    Oh that is awesome

To which @marine77 replied

    With notch counts etched into the stocks.

After which, @FlatsFarmer added

    You'll never take me alive, Copper!

To which @marine77 replied

    That's the idea

After which, @Beyond_Beyond added

    zecarlo:
    
    > But they fire pistol rounds.
    
    Yep, and lots of em. 50 round mag. Against the average guy not wearing body armor, they are still fucked.  
    I imagine the p90 would be a lot of fun to plink with, an old .45cal, Thompson, Reising or a grease gun, would be more formidable.


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