@Paralytic posted a new topic, subject "Wireless Switch for New Light in UK - Best Solution?". It read:

   Hi,
    
    First time poster here - I've had my hub for a few months now and have been gradually switching things over to SmartThings in my home - lights (typically Tradfri, Lightify), TRVs (Danfoss), a few motion sensors (Samsung) to automatically turn lights on/off, a multi-sensor (Samsung) to tell me when mail has dropped into my outside postbox (still in progress). I've a development background so am also familiarising myself with handlers, smartapps, CoRE etc but haven't yet started cutting any code.
    
    I do have a very specific requirement that at first glance sounds like it has already been covered bythe many quality threads I've read here, but I've not managed to identify a solution that is right for me. So, I thought I'd ask. Here's my requirements:
    
      * We are in the UK
      * We recently moved into a house that has a 4 meter high ceiling living area but that area has no ceiling lights - that part of the house has floor level 5A sockets with floor lamps
      * The boss want to add a couple of pendants to the ceiling and I want to be able to control those from SmartThings
      * However, we also need to be able to control the lights from a wall mounted switch
      * I have an existing powered wall switch i could expand/re-purpose if required (2 wire system)
      * We have access to the loft space above the living area and can get wired power to the pendants
      * However, there's no non-destructive way of getting wires from the switch to the pendants
      * The solution can't be internet reliant - I i don't want to be in the situation where I'm away for work and my wife can't turn lights on and off (ie. has to be local processing)
      * The solution could be internet reliant if the manual switch still worked during any outages
      * The pendant doesn't have bulb fitments for bulbs can be ST controlled (ie, not E14, E27 etc)
    
    
    
    Can what I've after be done with ST and the Fibaro modules or with another ST compatible module? eg, a Z-Wave notification switch (or behind the switch) and a Z-Wave relay above the lights with a smartapp controlling it? Or would that automatically make it cloud based?
    
    I've read many posts here and articles on other sites (eg, vesternet.com) but haven't yet found the right solution for me.
    
    I'd rather not have to go down the Lightwave RF route or another non-open solution.
    
    Or do I just need to accept that my plasterboard is going to get some collateral damage, run wires from an existing wall switch, and install a Fibaro module either behind the socket or above the light?
    
    Any thoughts appreciated.

@Cobra (Andy - United Kingdom) replied

    You could use the Fibaro dimmer module which I don't believe requires a neutral at the switch (dependent upon wattage levels etc)  
    Then you could use whatever pendant light fitting you want  
    the great thing about the fibaro modules it that they can be manually controlled with a normal light switch even when there is no internet.
    
    One of the guys here is in the UK and have done his whole house with fibaro units @anon36505037  
    Now that I've tagged him he will probably be along soon to advise.

So @Paralytic replied

    HI @Cobra, how would the dimmer module control the pendant without the line between the switch and the pendant? Won't i need both a controller at the switch and a relay at the pendant?

@Cobra (Andy - United Kingdom) replied

    Basically, you would wire the pendants in the conventional way then place the fibaro unit behind the switch (or at the pendant if nor room behind the switch.  
    The switch is then wired to control the fibaro… then the fibaro controls the light
    
    The Fibaro is both controller and relay (sort of)

To which @MarkTr (MarkTr) replied

    Does local electrical code allow for a light and the controlling switch to not be on the same circuit? I think the concern would be that someone wanting to do work in the switch box could cut power to the light via the breaker, assume there was no power at the switch, and then get zapped. Of course, people do things that aren't to code all the time, but it's something to consider.
    
    Edited to add: code probably doesn't consider a situation where the switch can control a light that _isn't_ on its circuit, I don't know if many locales or the big councils like NEC/IEC have updated them to consider smart devices.

Then @Cobra (Andy - United Kingdom) said

    The Fibaro replaces the switch in the circuit… so cutting power to the circuit will also cut power to the fibaro… leaving unpowered lights no matter what you do with the switch

After which, @MarkTr (MarkTr) added

    Cobra:
    
    > The Fibaro replaces the switch in the circuit… so cutting power to the circuit will also cut power to the fibaro… leaving unpowered lights no matter what you do with the switch
    
    As I read it, OP's proposal was powering the switch from one existing circuit and supplying the lights from elsewhere.
    
    Paralytic:
    
    > have an existing powered wall switch i could expand/re-purpose if required (2 wire system)  
    >  We have access to the loft space above the living area and can get wired power to the pendants  
    >  However, there's no non-destructive way of getting wires from the switch to the pendants

Then @Cobra (Andy - United Kingdom) said

    Mark  
    in the UK the lightswitch in effect just cuts the live wire from fusebox to pendant light.  
    I would expect this to be the same
    
    Cobra:
    
    > Basically, you would wire the pendants in the conventional

After which, @Paralytic added

    HI @Cobra \- I'm still missing something here. If the pendant is wired to the mains only, with no wire to the switch, and no fibaro relay, how can a fibaro behind the switch control it?
    
    I can see the scenario with the relay at the light, and another controller at the switch controlling that relay (via ST) but I've not seen that setup proven anywhere yet.
    
    Perhaps I'm missing something major here on how the fibaro modules work - electrical engineering is not my thing.

Then @Cobra (Andy - United Kingdom) said

    Maybe it's me assuming too much about your current wiring…  
    What does your existing lightswitch control?

So @Paralytic replied

    MarkTr:
    
    > As I read it, OP's proposal was powering the switch from one existing circuit and supplying the lights from elsewhere.
    
    Yes, that's correct. There is no wire from the switch to where the pendant will be and it will be plasterboard-destructive to introduce one. I'd also be ok going for a battery operated wall switch communicating with a relay at the light. But my ideal would be
    
      * The hardware switch must work during internet outages. It would be acceptable to have to flip the switch a couple of times to get the power back on during an outage
      * Powered switch so no need to replace batteries
      * Ideally not cloud based to reduce latency and minimise the chance of “lost” messages from the switch to the relay above the light
    
    
    
    Thanks for all the feedback.

@Paralytic replied

    Cobra:
    
    > Maybe it's me assuming too much about your current wiring…
    > 
    > What does your existing lightswitch control?
    
    It controls the existing 5A floor lights. I mentioned that as a powered wall switch would be ideal, but a battery operated one would be acceptable.

So @Cobra (Andy - United Kingdom) replied

    Ah!  
    this is where I was getting confused.  
    I had assumed that the wires from the lightswitch went to the area of the pendants.

Then @Paralytic said

    anon36505037:
    
    > If you have no wire link between the wall switch and the pendant then you'll need to use Zwave direct association to keep things local and non-net reliant.
    > 
    > This will require two Fibaro modules, one at the switch and one at the pendant.
    > 
    > You would then link them to the hub AND to each other using the direct association feature
    
    Thanks @anon36505037, that helps. Does ST support direct associations? I've not done much reading in this area yet, but I have read that ST doesn't support some of the more complicated aspects of the protocols.

Then @Paralytic said

    Cobra:
    
    > Ah!
    > 
    > this is where I was getting confused.
    > 
    > I had assumed that the wires from the lightswitch went to the area of the pendants.
    
    Yup, thought that might be the case 
    
    I hoping to not have to pay an electrician and a plasterer! The former is a friend and will do things at mates-rates and i'm hoping to avoid the latter.

After which, @Paralytic added

    Perfect, thanks @anon36505037 \- some reading for me.
    
    So it sounds like a dimmer behind the switch and the relay at the pendant is the solution?
    
    Once i read through that, i'll come back and ask about the actual physical switch. eg. What happens with the existing toggle switch in the case where the light is switched via ST rather than that switch. Can it then work as a true toggle (ie. up or down can mean on or off) or would it be best to replace it with a momentary switch.

@Paralytic replied

    Hi,
    
    I've now purchased 2 Fibaro Dimmer 2 and am testing things in another part of my house before putting the solution in place in its final resting place.
    
    I've got the first Dimmer 2 working with the wall switch, powering a light using the DTH recommended above.
    
    I now want to install the second Fibaro above a ceiling light, and have an always-on load to that light and then use the first switch/Dimmer 2 (disconnected from the light) to control that with direct association,
    
    However, I'm not 100% sure which wiring diagram to use - the wiring in my ceiling light is very simple - just the single blue and brown wire (neutral and live?)
    
    363024×4032 1.95 MB
    
    Can anyone share how would I wire that so I can then set up direct association via the DTH? The diagrams I've seen all seem to have wiring from fuse board/previous light and the switch.
    
    eg,
    
    https://community.smartthings.com/t/fibaro-dimmer-2-ceiling-rose-installation/97824/2
    
    or
    
    APNT-138 - Standard Lighting Circuit using Fibaro Dimmer 2 — Vesternet (Installing in Ceiling Rose)
    
    Is this what I should be following?
    
    http://www.fibarouk.co.uk/resources/WiringDiagrams/Dimmer%202%20and%20Remote%20Dimmer%202%20NoNeutral%20Connection.pdf
    
    Any thoughts appreciated. I'd typically ask my electrician friend but its his birthday today so didn't want to interrupt him

So @cjcharles (cjcharles) replied

    Actually from the looks of that… That wiring contains the switched live and neutral, no live, hence you will need to install the Fibaro behind the switch otherwise your existing wall switch will just disable/turn off everything.
    
    The reason I say that is that there is only a single wire coming into the fixture, it is a ceiling fixture, and the wires are literally patched from ceiling wire (grey wire) straight into the wire which goes to the light.

@cjcharles (cjcharles) replied

    Sorry!

@Paralytic replied

    No problem @cjcharles, you were right from that picture, but that was just a test in one part of the house. I'm going to be installing this in a less accessible part of the house so wanted to test in first. In that new part of the house, the light will be hardwired from another circuit with a master on/off in a cupboard near the new location - it could end up fitting the fibaro behind that switch rather than above the light.
    
    I managed to get the direct associate working yesterday via @zcapr17 excellent DTH.
    
    The first Dimmer 2 is on one switch circuit (I left it still controlling its own light so as to take some load) and flicking that switch also controlled the the light on the second circuit (with the fibaro above the light and with power on at its own switch to simulate my final solution).
    
    The first switch is not a dimmer so could not test that association but see no reason why that would also not work.
    
    My biggest challenge was trying to get the fibaros to sync as I didn't purchase the Bypass 2 module and was struggling to get enough loads onto the circuit. I've ordered that today.
    
    Once I get it all working in my final solution, I'd like to document this since all the information is out there but a single page for this solution, with wiring diagrams, would have helped me.
    
    Thanks everyone for the help/input.

To which @Paralytic replied

    Hi,
    
    A follow-up question to the above.
    
    Has anyone ever connected a Dimmer 2 so it is only used to control another device via direct association. ie. no load across the output. I can only get it to work when there is also a load connected to the Dimmer 2 and calibration has taken place. I want to just use it as transmitter device and not control anything on the same circuit.
    
    If not possible, how would I get a load on the dimmer 2? Would a Bypass 2 at the transmitting Dimmer 2 help here?

To which @Paralytic replied

    Paging @anon36505037 \- any idea on the above. Have you used the Dimmer 2 without a local load?
    
    I've a Bypass 2 being delivered today (ordered at 10:30pm last night - Amazon Prime rocks!) in the hope they'll be the quick fix

After which, @cjcharles (cjcharles) added

    I think not having a load will give a challenge as @anon36505037 mentioned, since it is needed for dead-device detection and calibration. If just using it as a remote switch, why not use something from this thread:
    
    FAQ: Full list of buttons and remotes confirmed to work with SmartThings [Not all devices listed work with the 2020 Platform] Wiki
    
    > I'd like to know which buttons and remotes are currently supported or might be supported in the future. Ideally, I'd like to find something similar to the following: http://www.evolvecontrols.com/devices/control-devices/glass-series Though alternatively just a simple nice-looking button which actually works unlike this Aeon according to Amazon reviews: http://www.amazon.com/Touch-Panel-Button-Switch-AL-001/dp/B00GL6B4GG/ref=sr_1_3?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1421468320&sr=1-3&keywords=aeon+button There is an Aeon Key Fob as well, but it doesn't seem to be very durable or stylish: What else is available? 
    
    Or one of these:
    
    Vesternet
    
    ### Latest Z-Wave Remote Controllers at affordable prices
    
    Z-Wave remote controllers provide you the flexibility of controlling all the devices connected in your home automation system with just the tap of a few buttons. Z-Wave remotes save you having to use your smartphone or tablet to control smart devices...
    
    (maybe this but Im not sure about compatibility, though price looks good)
    
    amazon.co.uk
    
    ### Insteon 2342-422 Mini Remote 8 Scene : Amazon.co.uk: DIY &amp; Tools
    
    Shop Insteon 2342-422 Mini Remote 8 Scene. Free delivery on eligible orders of £20 or more.
    
    ****
    
    Seems like overkill if you just want a remote zwave switch to associate with another controller… You can always connect the switches on the remote with normal-looking wall switches with a small modification. Even a small Xiaomi button from China would work (though would need CoRE linking rather than pure ZWave…)

To which @Paralytic replied

    Thanks both for your input.
    
    @anon36505037 I'll see what i can do. One challenge I have is that i actually want to use both S1 and S2 to control two separate ceiling lights via association (i've not gotten round to trying this even with a load yet) though worst case i could accept controlling them together with the physical switch and independently via ST.
    
    @cjcharles The issue with that (unless I'm mistaken) is that i need/want my solution to require internet comms - that's how i ended up with the direct association solution.
    
    I also didn't want a battery operated solution in order to get the Wife Approval Factor.
    
    Perhaps I should just get someone in to run a wire afterall  .
    
    A random thought - some light switches have LEDs and don't work with the Dimmer 2, but could one of these switches be used to take the load from the Dimmer 2? I'm sceptical but…
    
    A second random though - would the Fibaro Relay/Switch rather than the Dimmer 2 work instead here or does it also have the load requirement (yes, i know, i should go read the manual)

After which, @cjcharles (cjcharles) added

    The relay model doesnt need a load, but I imagine the switch does (just to be clear that they are different).
    
    Are the association groups on the Fibaro's two way? I.e. a switch press can be used to trigger another device, AND, a switch press on another device can be used to toggle the Fibaro. Or just the first case… (sorry for undoubtedly incorrect language, not sure what it is called)

@Paralytic replied

    cjcharles:
    
    > The relay model doesnt need a load, but I imagine the switch does (just to be clear that they are different).
    
    That's funny, I'm just reading- i haven't quite got the difference yet or which one works best for me.
    
    Fibaro switches - confused which: Dimmer vs Switch vs Relay General Discussion
    
    > Quick question to start with. What's the difference between Fibaro Double Switch (FIBEFGS-223) and Fibaro Relay 2 (FIBEFGS-222). They both have exactly the same description on Vesternet… I figure Dimmer 2 is the only one that dims and that the ‘s' doesn't mean it supports 2 circuits as the ‘2' seems to on the Relay… The real question: In a 3-storey townhouse I have a double light switch on the 1st floor landing where one switch is in a 3-way with the ground floor light and the other switch is in a 3-way with the 2nd floor light. Can I use either a Fibaro Double Switch (FIBEFGS-223) or a Fibaro Relay 2 (FIBEFGS-222) behind that one socket to turn both switches smart? The complication I realise is that the on/off toggles according to the position of the other switches and there is a third ‘… 
    
    Luckily i found out this part of my house does have a neutral at the switch (its an extension - the switches in the original house do not)

@Paralytic replied

    anon36505037:
    
    > Yes… associations work in both directions (keep the two devices in sync) when setup properly.
    
    I presume to do that you just set the appropriate node id's in each respective association configuration parameters?

@Paralytic replied

    I;m not sure the Switch 2 DTH has settings to set the group 2-5 direct associations.
    
    New Fibaro switches FGS-213/223 Devices & Integrations
    
    > Anyone tried the new Fibaro switches with Smartthings? UPDATE: Handlers are made for both devices Single Relay: Dual Relay: 
    
    Do you think the Dimmer 2 DTH might do that? Or should I turn to ZWave Tweaker to do that?

So @Paralytic replied

    Hi, another update. I thought I'd try the bypass module alone and, despite what the manuals say, calibration without any other load was successful and I can now control the remote lights via the second Dimmer 2.
    
    I now have this set up in two places.
    
    I've a single wall switch in our bedroom with a Dimmer 2 and Bypass controlling the ceiling light, also with a Dimmer 2 and Bypass on that light circuit.
    
    And I've a double wall switch in our open plan living area, with a Dimmer 2 and Bypass, each switch controlling one of two ceiling lights, each with their own Dimmer 2 and Bypass on their circuit.
    
    So, in total - 5 Dimmer 2s and 5 Bypass to control the 3 lights - approaching £300. Not cheap, but cheaper than having to run new wiring and then replastering but with the added benefit that I can now control these lights from wall switches, Alexa and from automations.

So @Paralytic replied

    anon36505037:
    
    > Nice!! And direct association so Lighting quick and 100% local / hub free!
    
    Lightning quick in theory, yes, but not in practice - there was still a lag but I ran out of time before getting a chance to investigate - I plan to just turn off the WiFi router to ensure that's there's nothing going via the controller, but I can't see how that would be the case. I also found if flipped both switches in our living area at the same time, sometimes only one light came on. I'm wondering if there's some interference.
    
    I also didn't have enough space in the switch backboxes to fit both the Dimmer 2 and Bypass in so had to dismantle what I did yesterday to reduce the risk of killing the family until I get get the larger backbox but it'll just take me a few minutes to put it back together.

@JDRoberts replied

    anon36505037:
    
    > Yes… associations work in both directions (keep the two devices in sync) when setup properly.
    
    I suspect some confusion over this answer, which is correct, but may not have been answering the question the OP was asking.
    
    While there is some synchronization, the zwave direct association standard was originally Designed around the use case of a motion sensor triggering a light switch.
    
    It was later expanded to control “virtual two ways” (“virtual three ways” using US terminology), where a “remote” auxiliary Switch which didn't control any fitting directly would be used as a trigger For a master switch.
    
    It was never intended to have two master switches each using direct association on the other. That use case is quite easy to do using the smartthings platform to have each switch follow the other, but not using direct zwave association Where you can get a ping pong effect which confuses everybody.
    
    Since the OP has now run into some unusual symptoms in another thread, I did want to mention this here just for clarity.

Then @JDRoberts said

    Paralytic:
    
    > despite what the manuals say…
    
    Operating against specs will almost always lead to unexpected results in the future, and is typically a code violation.
    
    Once you get into this area, it becomes very difficult to predict future device behavior.


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