@cherry (cherry) posted a new topic, subject "the two towers movie review". It read: Just got back from the movie and I thought it was really good. But what happened in the first 5 minutes of the movie? I missed that part (was getting french fries) all I saw was when Gandalf was lying on the mountain. I enjoyed those tree creatures the most. So @SpartanDC (SpartanDC) replied I just got back, too. The Uptown theater in Washington DC really, really enjoyed itself. I can't believe I'm saying it, but it was worth waiting 7 hours in the cold for that. I'm too tired to post a whole review. But suffice to say it was an incredible piece of work. The climaxing of the movies three separate plotlines was handled so well. Amazing considering that the Battle of Helms Deep is perhaps the best battle sequence ever put on film. But the pacing didn't suffer at all when the movie switched to other plotlines. And yeah, Treants (is that what they're called?) are awesome. 6 out of 5 stars After which, @Flutterby (Flutterby) added Ents! They are called ENTS!!! After which, @GSV_Consolation_of_Dreams (GSV Consolation of Dreams) added Ents lad, Ents. I'm seeing it tonight. 8b7c:f320:99b9:690f:4595:cd17:293a:c069prays for short women in seats in front and to be otherwise surrounded by mutes who are allergic to noisy cinema snacks8b7c:f320:99b9:690f:4595:cd17:293a:c069 @GSV_Consolation_of_Dreams (GSV Consolation of Dreams) replied Damn and blast. So @Coriolanus (Coriolanus) replied They're called ‘Ents' by the Rohirrim and means “giant” in Old English. (Okay - so Professor Tolkien called them that! :b) “Ents thought slowly and were slow to act, but once aroused they posessed the age-long action of trees compressed in a few seconds; they could crack rocks and move large quantities of earth easily and quickly” (Those are Robert Foster's words in 'The Complete Guide to Middle Earth. The Ents are some of JRR's best and Mr. Lucas best not employ them in ‘Attack on the Ewoks!') Just after the Orcs taunt Aragorn with, “We are the Fighting Uruk-Hai!” and things really look hopeless - another massive host arrives from Fangorn Forest (in the books) of ‘tree-ish' folks known as Huorns, which might (but doesn't) mean ‘ruin your day' in Old English I'll see the movie tomorrow afternoon. After which, @Cisco (Cisco) added Ummm, SPOILERS, I guess, but do I really need to say that in a thread called “Two Towers Movie Review”? I don't read _anything_ about a movie if I don't want it spoiled because every little review or blurb or tidbit is a potential spoiler. That said… I Just got back. Very good. Strayed more from the book than Fellowship did (which strayed more from the book than I would've liked), but it was still good. I didn't like: -The Arwen story took up too much time. -Haldir. Were any elves even at Helm's Deep? Surely not Haldir? -No Ent drafts. -Aragorn's fake death. -No fleshing out of Merry and Pippin's friendship with Treebeard. -Sam and Frodo in Osgiliath? Been awhile since I've read the book but I don't remember _that_ -Frodo holding the ring up to the wraith. **Definately** not. -The way they ended the battle of Helm's Deep. Big let down. It just…ended. -Gimli's comic relief. I did like: -Legolas and Gimli's dead orc count. I was just about sure they would leave this out but they didn't! -Legolas and Gimli's friendship got more attention. -Gimli's comic relief (notice this on both lists.) -The look and voice of Gollum. -The look and voices of the ents (if trolls were a deviation from them then they should've looked more similiar but screw it.) That's all I can think of right now. I'll probably see it at least one more time in the theatre though. Great movie. So @Cisco (Cisco) replied Oh, I meant to mention one more thing. Two words saved Gimli's comic relief: “Toss me.” Priceless. After which, @Coriolanus (Coriolanus) added Aargh. I reckon it's good to know that sort of spoiler stuffs. I was hoping Arwen would arrive with her good-for-nothing brothers and smooch with Aragorn while Eowyn watched. Haldir wasn't there. Aargh. The Rohir were no great friends of Elves. And the Lorien Elves would have had a bundle of shite to deal with the Morians. That's a flaw. Apparently Gimli - who looks a bit like PJ - is comic relief in this movie and is in it a lot - after folk complained he was only comic relief in the last movie. Aragorn's fake death? Unpossible. 4:30…gotta goo… Sounds like there's not much to really not like so that's cool. Ta! After which, @edwino (edwino) added It was a real pretty movie. Too tired to post more, post more tomorrow. Just real pretty. After which, @lee (lee) added Best line: No, I'm his gardener. Was it just me or was Shadowfax missing somethings? So @RexDart (RexDart) replied I sat down at the theatre next to a reporter from the local paper, and when she found out I'd read the series about 7 times through she asked to interview me after the show for a special report on the midnight showing to print Thursday. But at 3:30 am about all I could think of to say when she asked about the movie in relation to the book was how the Ent storyline was screwed up and that the siege at Helm's Deep was different, but IMHO still very cool in the movie. As far as the movie itself, best I could come up with in the interview was how the characters were more fun this time around, since they'd been developed in the first movie, and the relationship between Gimli and Legolas was a fun part of the film. I liked how this one embodied more of Tolkien's message. There were monologues about the cost of war, the way victory may bring unpleasant change. As for the rest, aside from Gimli/Legolas buddy-cop routine, I like Gollum's arguing with himself scene (although people found it funny in the theatre when I don't think it was meant to be funny…must be how much he looks like that stupid thing from the new Harry Potter), the entire seige battle scene, and especially Sam's speech at the end. To which @Munch (Munch) replied But Gollum's speech _was_ funny - to begin. The interchanged camera angles is what really made it appear to be two separate consciences, and the conversation was humorous, but quickly turned into a very empathetic display of what Smeagal has gone through. In my theatre, there was a lot of chuckling, but that quickly turned to “Oooh, that sucks. Bummer.” Very well done, and I don't think some chuckling is inappropriate. Shadowfax was missing something. Girth, a visible dominance over nearby horses, not having a pure white face, big Clydsdale-ish fur over the hooves, etc. But something. I didn't like the constant backlighting of Gandalf, especially at Helm's Deep. His appearance to the Three Hunters as well as Merry & Pippin was fine and appropriate, but it got old (and looked poorly). Okay, enough bitching. Things that I really enjoyed: The Dead Marshes were perfect. The arial shots even had little hobbits walking around. Gollum was amazing. The dicotomy between Stinker and Slinker was so clear and defined, it will forever enhance my future readings. So will the vocalization of “Gollum, gollum.” More of a cough than a grovel. Many might disagree (and that's understandable), but I liked the alteration to Faramir and the jaunt to Osgiliath. Faramir's character will most likely have some more fleshing out next year, but I think for the best. Osgiliath was incredible, but the Nazgul scene could have been done without. However, Frodo and Sam had to get on the road somehow, and Faramir's character needed some sort of impulse. Gandalf and the Balrog. Man, do I wish there were more of this! Cut out some of the Arwen screentime, or the Aragorn floating down the river, and slap it in here. Can't wait for the Extended DVD, which I bet will have more here. I would have liked to see a slimy Balrog. The Black Gate. VERY cool. Maybe put an arial fly-by to give a bit of scale, but the trolls did a good job of that. I thought the hill F, S and G were on was a bit close though… Sam's Final Thought. In a movie with some pretty good speeches, this was the best. That's all for now. Great movie, bigger than the first (obviously), but not as great. After which, @photopat (photopat) added Haven't seen it yet, but there are no surprises here, except…what's this about Aragorn's fake death? That's not in the book. Do the ents really look good? How about Faramir? Then @Dr.Righteous (Dr. Righteous) said The one thing that still bugs me days later is the fake Aragorn death and subsequent Arwen stuff. It felt shoehorned in to me. Other than that all the other changes were ok by me since it really captured the spirit of the book. It wasn't perfect but that doesn't matter as much as the fact that it felt right. Really enjoyed it and can't wait to see it again. To which @Mahaloth (Mahaloth) replied > *Originally posted by photopat * > **Haven't seen it yet, but there are no surprises here, except…what's this about Aragorn's fake death? That's not in the book. > > Do the ents really look good? > > How about Faramir? ** 1. Yes, they briefly trick you into thinking Aragorn is dead. It will probably be hacked on the most in this movie, but it is really quite minor, and sets up some really good stuff when Legolas and Gimli see him again. 2. The ents look really good. Especially when they attack Isengard. 3. Faramir seems a little meaner in the movie than he was in the book. Of course, he is redeemed. Then @DMark (DMark) said I haven't seen it yet either, but just for a slight hijack re: sheer stupidity: Katie Couric on the Today Show said today she went to see TT last night, but had not seen the first film. Why? Blockbuster too expensive for her to rent first film? Geez…why would anybody in their right mind go see a part II of any film, if you hadn't seen part one? At any rate, can't wait to see this one - and already looking forward to the extended DVD version of TT that supposedly will include 60 minutes of additional footage this time! So @Scupper (Scupper) replied Not as fun as Fellowship, but a lot grander Aragorn's fake death is a little too Hollywood-Cliche (but at least he didn't climb back up the cliff, Indy-style), but it doesn't really hurt the movie much. The pacing is pretty glacial at times, particularly when everyone ruminates on the subject of war. It was very Kurosawa at times, mainly in a good way. Brad Dourif was fantastic as Wormtongue, but Theoden was so obviously in bad shape it was difficult to believe none of his men could put two and two together. The Ents were pretty good, but their attack on Isengard was incredible–the best “show don't tell” Jackson has pulled off yet. Helm's Deep is one of the better battle sequences I've ever seen. Gollum didn't look particularly great at times, but the performance of the character was fantastic. @Mahaloth (Mahaloth) replied > *Originally posted by DMark * > ** > At any rate, can't wait to see this one - and already looking forward to the extended DVD version of TT that supposedly will include 60 minutes of additional footage this time! ** I heard about this. I saw an interview with Peter Jackson. He claimed there will only be about 35 minutes on the extended dvd. I bet it will be a lot in the beginning, since the first 20 minutes feel a bit rushed. After which, @guitarguy471 (guitarguy471) added It's 2:04 and I xrodriguez@example.net. In 23 min when school gets out, 25 of us are heading up to get in line for the 7 pm show. I imagine this will be the best movie I have ever seen. I'm really looking forward to seeing the ents, one of my favorite charactures in the book. When I get home after the movie I will have a review to post. The next dvd has a full hour extra??? So @Avalonian (Avalonian) replied Several people have mentioned Sam's speech at the end. I haven't seen the film yet, but I'm wondering if this might be the part in the book when Frodo and Sam are talking about themselves as if they were characters in a story? I really liked that passage in the book, and I was hoping they'd find a way to work it into the film. It also seemed like it might be a good place to end, since Shelob isn't until the third film. Is that it? You can feel free to spoil it for me (in a spoiler tag), since I'm seeing it this evening… 7 hours! After which, @bouv (bouv) added > *Originally posted by Avalonian * > **Several people have mentioned Sam's speech at the end. I haven't seen the film yet, but I'm wondering if this might be the part in the book when Frodo and Sam are talking about themselves as if they were characters in a story? I really liked that passage in the book, and I was hoping they'd find a way to work it into the film. It also seemed like it might be a good place to end, since Shelob isn't until the third film. Is that it? > > You can feel free to spoil it for me (in a spoiler tag), since I'm seeing it this evening… 7 hours! ** Well, here we go: That speech is in, briefly, but everyone is talking about the speech Sam gives to Frodo at Osgiliard about how we have to do things we don't want to, cause in the great stories people didn't give up, and blah blah blah. After which, @Avalonian (Avalonian) added Cool… thanks **bouv**. @Cervaise (Cervaise) replied > *Originally posted by Scupper * > **Gollum didn't look particularly great at times, but the performance of the character was fantastic. ** I saw it this morning (one of the advantages of working at a technology company full of geeks: getting to go off as a group to see movies on company time), and I wanted to highlight the above comment. I thought Gollum had one of the best performances in the film, and he's a revolutionary achievement. This isn't because he's an entirely convincing visual effect — he isn't. He's still pretty obviously computer-generated. However, he's entirely _emotionally_ convincing. The obvious point of comparison, Jar-Jar Binks, suffers because, to put it simply, we just don't buy him as a character. Technically, he's remarkable, but on an emotional and narrative level, he's completely phony. Gollum, on the other hand, while just as remarkable technically, convinces because we _do_ buy him as a character. We understand his dilemma, we see his conflict, and we fairly quickly quit thinking about him as a visual effect. By the end of the film, when he's deciding whether or not to betray Frodo and Sam, we have forgotten that he's a collection of pixels, and are watching Gollum, _as Gollum_ , wrestle with an ethical question in his twisted brain. The rest of the movie is just as amazing, though I agree with what's been said above: The Arwen stuff was a big indigestible blob right in the middle of the film, Aragorn's “death” was kind of hokey (check out the cliched shot looking up at the people standing at the edge of the cliff), and the Repeatedly Glowing Gandalf was a bit much. Otherwise, this is a monumental feat of imagination and physical production. I want to see the third movie _**NOW.**_ P.S. Anyone read Ebert's review? He clearly believes he's the Defender of Tolkien, but I think he has his head up his ass, and doesn't remember the original book and its themes half as well as he thinks he does. @Dangerosa (Dangerosa) replied I'm mixed on the whole Arwen thing. On one hand, I really like the obvious division Aragorn feels - “If I allow this woman to love me I am killing her.” I think it adds a lot to the triangle (you never really got a feeling for it in the books, other than Eowyn mooning over Aragorn) - adds some humanity to Aragorn. But it needed to be better done. Should have been a single quick scene in this movie. And Arwen is like a couple hundred years old. Daddy should not be treating her like a sixteen year old child. And she shouldn't be acting like one. The Elrond scene with “you aren't doing this to my daughter” was over the top. @jack_ss (jack@ss) replied I was _very_ lucky; my roommate suggested we just go by the theatre at 10:00 & see if they had any tickets to the 12:01 am showing. I was certain they wouldn't, but to my pleasant surprise they did! We ran into 5 friends from work there so all 7 of sat together. Now to the review: I also thought Gollum was great. He came across as more of a sympathetic character in the film than I thought he was in the books. And they've forshadowed his betrayal of the hobbits pretty well. I was disappointed with the handling of Faramir. I viewed him & Boromir as something like Michael & Sonny Corleone; the eldest son was not as wise & reflective as the younger, a rash hothead by comparison. I thought it could have done without Aragorn's falling & the whole floating-in-the-river thing, the hobbits at Osgiliard, the Arwen backstory. I actually didn't mind the elves showing up at Helm's Deep; I thought it helped the story. Another shot at the ‘last alliance of men & elves'. Kudos to the animation team. The Ents were great, the Black Gate was fucking incredible. And the wolves, _Man!_ They looked like giant hyenas; really scary! So @RexDart (RexDart) replied > *Originally posted by Cervaise * > ** > > P.S. Anyone read Ebert's review? He clearly believes he's the Defender of Tolkien, but I think he has his head up his ass, and doesn't remember the original book and its themes half as well as he thinks he does. ** Ebert's hangup, as it was with the first film, is that he thinks the role of the hobbits is being shortchanged. I don't think he's actually read the books, I think he's just heard that it's supposed to be about the fate of the world hanging on these little hobbits. If that's what he wants, and he'd read the books, then he'd know that _Return of the King_ will give him that. RotK is when Merry and Pippin really shine. And there's plenty of Sam/Frodo storyline left, because the climb through Cirith Ungol was pushed to the third film. So he shouldn't be counting out even his very narrow vision of Tolkien's intent quite yet. BTW, anyone think that perhaps with Cirith Ungol pushed back to RotK and thus the Frodo/Sam storyline of RotK considerably extended, we're going to get Mount Doom (ch3 book 6) and the big fight (end of book 5) at the same time in the movie perhaps? Maybe they're going to shortchange us on all the sorrowful aftermath and the sense of loss that concludes the trilogy. I hope not. So @UWmite (UWmite) replied So weak…can't review movie. I'm literally overwhelmed. I sat in the second row at the biggest theater I could find. It was like a friggin' IMAX. And can I just say that there are waaaay too many rugged, attractive people in this series? I kept getting distracted by Aragorn's manly stubble. I was a little disappointed about all the changes from the book, but it all seemed to work quite well. Overall, I agree with everything that everybody else said, although I have one complaint that nobody else has mentioned. There were several times when I felt a bit too close to Gollum's loincloth. Other than that, the movie was just about perfect. To which @Master_Wang-Ka (Master Wang-Ka) replied I didn't really think the business with Elrond and Arwen was all that overdone. Anyone who's EVER really been in love knows that LOVE CAN MAKE YOU STUPID! I did kind of wonder why we washed Aragorn out of the movie for a while. Whatthehell was up with that? It's not like most of us didn't KNOW he was coming back… I felt that Sam's speech was BADLY overplayed, though. Lemme get this straight, Faramir hijacks the hobbits and the Ring, gonna take'm back to Gondor and use'm against Sauron… and suddenly, he finds out some ugly truths about his brother, listens to Sam make a speech, and all of a sudden, he's all sweetness and light and nobility? Whatthehell's up with that? What was wrong with the way the book handled it? Then again, we couldn't have addressed that without bringing Denethor in and hashing through Faramir and Boromir and sibling rivalry, and all that, and the movie was already running a bit long… But it's not a bad movie. Quite the reverse, actually. It actually manages to handle a whole LOT of subject matter very deftly, and carries us through the story wonderfully. Can't WAIT to see Eowyn kick the Witch King's ass in the next movie, though… So @HubZilla (HubZilla) replied I also wonder about ROTK. Will they be able to get ROTK in 3 hours? They need to include from TTT (SPOILERS!): Gandalf and Saruman at Isengard Pippin and the Palantir Aragorn to Paths of the Dead Frodo vs Shelob And then actually get into ROTK, and I'm sure Pelennor Fields will be much more involved than Helm's Deep. Not to mention the Morannon battle and I imagine they'll show Pelargir (vs Umbar) in real-time (to get the screentime for Aragorn, Legolas, & Gimli). Then again, the book is much shorter than the other two (since a good 1/4 is Appendices), and they can pretty much wrap things up after Mount Doom. We already know that the Scouring won't be there and I doubt they'll bother with the post-Minas Tirith farewell tour on the way back to the Shire. Granted, the shortness of the ROTK book means it won't be too difficult to tie up loose ends, but there does seem to be a lot to cover. Then @Cisco (Cisco) said I agree HubZilla. I don't see how they're possibly going to do RotK without leaving some major stuff behind. I was _really_ dissapointed that Merry and Pippin's relationship with Treebeard was played down and they didn't get to drink the Ent Draughts. I haven't read the books in awhile so could someone clarify some things for me? Denethur was in TTT, no? Merry and Pippen met Gandalf & Co. before the sacking of Isengard and therefore weren't present at said sacking, no? There were Huorns, Southrons (Southrons = “Wild Men”, right?) and Oliphants at Helm's Deep, weren't there? Ummm, consarn it I had some more questions but I forgot already. I'll be back. Then @I_am_Sparticus (I am Sparticus) said Gollum looked Asian to me. In fact, like James Hong, veteran character actor. I was unconvinced, but some more rendering a few years down the road should held. I liked the addition of the Elves at Helm's deep, but I would definitely put Elven archers on the higher Hornburg walls so that they could pick off Orcs with impunity. A waste of good archers IMHO. I loved the balrog sequence, and the jump from the subterrainean lake to the top of the mountain with no explanation of how they got there leaves me hoping for another 3 minutes of the battle in the extended version. I detested Gandalf saying that he had been on earth for 300 lifetimes of men, that gives away too much of the mystery. Loved Grima. The actor deserves best supporting. Did not like jealous Elrond the father worried about mortality. Did not like the detour to Osgilith, especially ringwraith scene, but I see where Jackson is going with it: Sauron will think the ring is in the direction of Minas Tirith, and the explication for the battle of Pelannor fields will be laid already. Christopher Lee beside himself at the Ents was fantastic. This could use a whole hour of further footage if it is good. To which @minty_green (minty green) replied Fantastic movie. Gollum (both the actor and the computer guys) should get an Oscar nomination for best supporting actor. And I'm dead serious about that. It's an awesome performance. The CGI works amazingly well for most (but not quite all) of the Gollum scenes. This has to have been the most difficult of the three films, simply because the narrative is so fractured. For the most part, however, I thought they pulled it off very well. And visually, I just can't believe how perfectly Jackson & Co. captured the book. I mean, there were moments looking at Helm's Deep where it was _precisely_ how I'd seen it in the book. Yes, there are some missteps. I cannot for the life of me figure out why they felt the need to screw with Faramir. I get the need to show that they really need to destroy the ring to keep it out of _anybody's_ hands, but come on, that whole take-them-to-Osgiliath thing added nothing at all to the movie. Plus, Faramir's decision to let the hobbits go is completely inexplicable. Okay, you _were_ going to take the ring, then you see Frodo trying to hand the ring over to the Nazgul, and so now you're just going to let him go? Yeah, right. I actually liked the intermission, a/k/a the Aragorn & Arwen flashback dream thing. It is the perfect time to leave for the restroom. Jackson was very thoughtful on putting that right in the middle of a three hour movie. On the whole, though, it is a wonderful movie. I'll be seeing it at least a couple more times in the theater, and I'll be buying whatever DVD versions the studio throws our way. And I'll be driving extra careful and eating very healthy for the next year, because I'm taking no chances on missing the next film. That's right, Peter Jackson, you've made me your bitch. @Arden_Ranger (Arden Ranger) replied Jackson had said this one was going to deviate the most from the books so I was prepared for it. But I was still annoyed when Haldir died, dammit. He was my second favorite elf. Overall, I loved it. Gollum's MPD was masterfully done, Legolas was great (needs more screen time ) and I loved the battle scenes and, holy crap, the Rohan sets were gorgeous. Already planning my next trip to the theater. After which, @squeegee (Your doom approaches... Squeeee!) added Thoughts on the possible editing of RTK: If you combine the Battle of the Pelenor Fields somehow with the battle of the Morannon and make it one battle, and have the Ringbearer fullfill the Quest during same, you shave a good hour off the movie. Not saying if this is a good or bad route to take, but I'd bet it was considered. It does present some sequence problems in the plot, obviously. Stuff they must, IMHO, keep in RoTK: * We need a Saruman denouement, deferred from TTT * Shelob * Cirith Ungol escape by F & S. * Siege of Minas Tirith * Ride of the Rohirrim, horns @ dawn * Gandalf confronting the Nazgul Lord * Eowyn (&Merry) slaying NL * Denethor's madness * Mount Doom ring-toss & fingerbiting contest. * Big ‘we won! whooo!' scenes. Aragorn crowned King, weds Arwen, see story page 6. Save screen time by modifying this: * Paths of the dead. Condense it or dispense with it. The important thing is Aragorn coming in the Nick Of Time™ to save the day at Da Big Battle. He can just show up late with any big army. Maybe he just rides with Rohan. .5 - 1 hour saved. * Omit scouring of the Shire and much trudging about from Gondor->Rivendell->Shire. We've been there already. Somehow Gandalf and Frodo and Bilbo still sail to ‘heaven', but not from the Grey Havens. Heck, there's a haven close to Imrahil's home town, let them leave from there. We change it so that Bilbo came to Arwen's wedding after all, and then they all take a cab to the pier. At least an hour saved. Dispense with: * Eowyn & Faramir's relationship. It wasn't even that great in the book. * Houses of healing scenes. “The hands of the King are the hands of a healer, so shalt the rightful king be known.” Sure, but Aragorn kicked butt in the big battle, so we're already pretty sure. * Ghan-buri-ghan. The Rohirrim can just follow the street signs. * Omit much Mordor trudging. 10 minutes of screen time can establish what an awful hike it is & how brave and valient our Hobbits are. * The Last Debate. Our strategy was committed already. * Battle of Morranon (see above). Combine w/ Pellenor maybe. At least omit much trudging from the Crossroads to the BlackGate. OK, we're down to 30 minutes, tops. End of the movies: After a lapse of years, Aragorn's death, then later Arwen at his graveside, much sorrow; passing of Arwen. Fade to black. So @RexDart (RexDart) replied > *Originally posted by I am Sparticus * > ** > > I liked the addition of the Elves at Helm's deep, but I would definitely put Elven archers on the higher Hornburg walls so that they could pick off Orcs with impunity. A waste of good archers IMHO. > > . ** I also wondered what was the point of bringing a thousand pikes to a seige? I mean, Saruman's army wouldn't have thought to need pikes. They ended up needing them to face the cavalry charge at the end, but they weren't anticipating that, so why so many? Just to look cool in the scene, I suppose. To which @Orual (Orual) replied > *Originally posted by Dangerosa * > **And Arwen is like a couple hundred years old. Daddy should not be treating her like a sixteen year old child. And she shouldn't be acting like one. The Elrond scene with “you aren't doing this to my daughter” was over the top. ** Actually, she's more like a couple _thousand_ years old… so the whole thing is even more ridiculous. Just saw it the first time. Will see again tomorrow. Will have more coherant thoughts then. For now, just … Wow. And yay. And wow for the Ents drop-kicking orcs. and yay. First Time Viewing favorite moment: Upon seeing Aragorn is not in fact dead, practically the first thing out of Legolas' mouth is: “You look awful.” (Because _I_ make sure to brush my hair 100 strokes _every night_ no matter _how_ many warg-riding orcs I've had to battle. 8b7c:f320:99b9:690f:4595:cd17:293a:c069hair toss8b7c:f320:99b9:690f:4595:cd17:293a:c069 ) Also I loved how the music for the elves marching into Helms Deep was the background music for Lothlorien in the previous movie, turned into a military-sounding march. The pretty people are coming to kick some ass… so perfect. In conclusion… **FORTH EORLINGAS!** To which @Bob_Scene (Bob Scene) replied When I left the theater there was a long line of people waiting to get in, and I was tempted to walk past them saying, “Man! Who would have thought that **Sauron** was going to turn out to be **Frodo's father!** ” Anyway, I thought it was even better than the first one. Some of the set designs, especially Theoden's hall and the Black Gate, are just incredible. Then @grendel72 (grendel72) said I saw the midnight show Tuesday and frikkin' loved it. I haven't read the books since junior high, so I wasn't really bothered by any changes although my boyfriend is a Tolkien geek… even he loved it. I was bothered a little bit by the comedy bits with Gimli, and everytime Wormtongue was onscreen I kept thinking “That's Chucky!” but i really dug the movie. After which, @jack_ss (jack@ss) added > ## And Arwen is like a couple hundred years old. Daddy should not be treating her like a sixteen year old child. And she shouldn't be acting like one. The Elrond scene with “you aren't doing this to my daughter” was over the top. > > Actually, she's more like a couple thousand years old… so the whole thing is even more ridiculous. Maybe she has a bad habit of falling for mortal guys, then moping around for a century or two after they die, only to hook up with another mortal guy & Elrond is just sick of seeing it. After which, @KGS (KGS) added Does Gollum have a pee-pee? I kept trying to catch a glance under that flapping loincloth, and the best that I could tell was…owning a ring of power for 600 years will take your balls off. After which, @grimpixie (grimpixie) added Saw it last night… My peeves (apart from those I have seen already mentioned above) - [ul][li]Theoden's sickness portrayed as some kind of possesion/magical spell rather than the subtle poisoning of mind (and body?) by a Wormtongue, that would havegone unnoticed until it was too late.[/li][li]The twisting of the “Two Towers” name to refer to Barad Dur and Isengard rather than Minas Morgul and Tirith (which I guess means that Minas Morgul will not feature in ROTK…)[/li][li]The “Olympic Torch Bearer” at Helm's Deep[/ul][/li]Things I loved - [ul][li]Gimli on a horse - actually most of the Gimli humour!![/li][li]The “rattlesnake” theme music used for Grima[/li][li]Treebeard[/ul][/li]Overall though, I must admit that I was able to let go of the changes and just enjoy the movie, which I wasn't able to do with the FOTR - I guess I must now go and watch it again just to enjoy… Grim Then @grimpixie (grimpixie) said > *Originally posted by RexDart * > **I also wondered what was the point of bringing a thousand pikes to a seige? I mean, Saruman's army wouldn't have thought to need pikes. They ended up needing them to face the cavalry charge at the end, but they weren't anticipating that, so why so many? Just to look cool in the scene, I suppose. ** To be fair, the Rohirrim _are_ the horse lords, so you could pretty much bank on facing a cavalry charge at _some_ point during the war… although having it come out of the dining room (or down a 80 degree slope) would take the most hardened battle tactician by surprise!! Grim To which @Munch (Munch) replied More things to comment on: You know, I loved **The Man From Snowy River** as much as the next guy, but apparently everyone from New Zealand or Australia finds the need to shoehorn a reference into their movie. I just wish Peter Jackson had gone with the “girl with a horseface” instead of the “riding down a cliff at full gallop” route. Grima was great, but Gollum gets Best Supporting. Why did they go from so many on-location shots and CGI backgrounds to that fingerpainted backdrop for the Merry/Pippin/Treebeard Fangorn romp? I was waiting for King Friday to come out and declare it Three Corner Hat Day. Sweet sassy molassy Miranda Ott is hot! Humina humina humina… I'd bear her shield any day. Was there something weird about the Nazgul cam? Can't place my finger on it, just something out of place. I also like the Gimli humor. “Toss me” was great, as was the quip about dwarves not being good long-distance runners, but are unstoppable in a sprint. Anyone remember a quote for that? “Keep breathing, that's the key.” @quixotic78 (quixotic78) replied [QUOTE] *Originally posted by grimpixie * **My peeves: [ul][li]The twisting of the “Two Towers” name to refer to Barad Dur and Isengard rather than Minas Morgul and Tirith (which I guess means that Minas Morgul will not feature in ROTK…)[/ul]**[/li][/QUOTE] I always thought that the two towers referred to in the eponymous title were Orthanc (which is kind of the center of action for the first part of the book) and Minas Morgul. Minas Tirith isn't even in there xrodriguez@example.net. But I could be wrong… Quix @unwashed_brain (unwashed brain) replied Credentials: Read the books twice, seen the first movie 5 times. Saw TTT last night, and thought is was great but definitely could have been better. Cons: * the whole interlude with Arwen/Elrond/Aragorn. Totally killed the momentum of the movie, and seemed to be thrown in purely for the ladies' benenfit. * Helm's deep didn't live up to the hype. Still a nice battle scene, but it did end too abruptly. Gandalf and Eomer appear, they charge, and then the battle's over. * The thrashing of Isengard by the ents. My enduring image from the books is of the ents really attacking and breaking apart the stone and rocks of Isengard. There was maybe 2 quickly cut scenes of this in the film. I would have liked to see more of this. Pros: * First and foremost, Gollum was fantastic. After the first few moments where I kept thinking how weird he looked compared to what I was expecting, it was really easy to forget he was computer generated. The best job I've ever seen of a bunch of pixels emoting. * Wormtongue: When first I heard Brad Dourif was cast as Grima I had mixed feelings. I definitely thought he was slimy enough to pull it off, but I was worried that he would just do a straight rehashing of his character in “Dune”. Well, I needn't have worried, he did a great job. * Legolas: he was awesome in the the scene with the wargs. So @Cisco (Cisco) replied Sorry, it's been awhile since the books - What's the difference between Minas Morgul and Barad-dur? I thought they were the same thing and Barad-dur was just the Dwarven (or Mordor tongue?) name for it? @Just_Some_Guy (Just Some Guy) replied There's a lot of argument over exactly which two towers the title refers to (Isengard is clearly one of them and I've always been partial to Minas Morgul but Baradur is fine). I'm glad that Jackson pinned it down for his movie since now people who haven't read the book can't complain about not understanding the title. I was surpised at how much more wandering from the book there was in TTT than in FotR. I can understand why the changes were made but I'm not fond of a lot of them. For example, without the Shelob climax Frodo's portion of TTT is the most boring thing in LotR so to give him something more exciting to do they give Gollum a bit more clear and forceful personality split and change Faramir from the guy who was everything Boromir was not to almost the same character. The Osgiliath scenes don't make any sense; Faramir doesn't understand the Ring in detail so why should he just let them go on their own to destroy it? Especially in the middle of a battle when they have to cross through enemy lines? In the book his reasoning was clear (he did have a bit more knowledge than his brother and didn't want the thing and though he didn't want to let the hobbits go off on their own he had other duties), but in the movie he just sends them off with no help. I much preferred the book's method of handling Theoden at the start. It made Grima much less an obvious villain (though he certainly could be spotted for what he was quickly) if he was just manipulating Theoden. Having Sauraman work directly gave us something to keep Sauraman as villain in the forefront but that scene didn't really fit with the more muted state of magic in Middle Earth. The thing I really didn't like changing, though, was the movement to Helm's Deep. One might point out that in the book Gandalf is the one who says “Go to Helm's Deep!” but just being different from the book isn't a criticism. However Gandalf's complete and total lack of tactical sense is. “There's no way out of that canyon!” Yeah, how about that. Perhaps you should… I don't know… take advantage of that (which they didn't even do at the end). Gandalf wants Theoden to march out with a few hundred warriors to meet the armies of Isengard on an open field. Now even assuming that Gandalf can get help to them in time this is an astoundingly bad plan especially for someone who has direct intelligence regarding the strength of Sauraman's forces (he was there a few days ago and could see it with his own eyes). Does he really think that a handful of men can stand in the open against ten thousand? That an army of two thousand calvary can just ride in and save them? The only reason they held out as long as they did was because they were in a fortress. Without Sauraman's explosives they likely could have held off the Orc army for a few days (especially with the elves) and then when Gandalf arives they have the orcs trapped between the charge and the fortress walls. It should have been a massacre except that Gandalf didn't bother cutting off the retreat in the canyon with no other exit letting half the army run away to do more damage as they go. The impression the film is trying to make is one of Theoden being arogant and getting them in a bad situation while Gandalf is the brilliant savior who everyone should have listened to from the beginning, but it makes Gandalf look like a moron I would never trust with my army and in RotK his leadership is supposed to be an important part. Of all the changes from the book to the movie this is the one that really got under my skin since for the sake of some artificial tension a lot of things are thrown off kilter. But other than that the movie continued to be fairly good; I liked Fellowship better but it hasn't dampened my enthusiasm for Return of the King. So @UWmite (UWmite) replied > *Originally posted by unwashed brain * > > * the whole interlude with Arwen/Elrond/Aragorn. Totally killed the momentum of the movie, and seemed to be thrown in purely for the ladies' benenfit. > Just need to mention that, as a lady, I thought this was just as much of a bathroom break moment as all the guys I went with. Carry on. @Hello_Again (Hello Again) replied Am I the only one who percieved a totaly Elvish pun in Arwen & Elrond's arguement? Elrond: There is no hope Arwen: There is hope The word for hope is _estel_ , which Arwen also uses to mean trust in another scene. As we all know, When Aragorn was young and lived in Rivendell, he used a different name so as to protect him from assasination and the knowlege of Sauron's spies. That name was Estel. So, I think Arwen is punning that Aragorn (Estel) is the last hope for Middle-earth. Aragorn's mother Gilraen made a similar pun the last time he saw her: _Onen i-Estel Edain, u-chebin estel anim_ which means “I have given Hope to the Dunedain; I have kept no hope for myself.” Geez Louise, I am such a geek. To which @Hello_Again (Hello Again) replied BTW, I did think the Elrond arguement was a bit over the top BUT I loved them showing what happens at the very end of Aragorn's life. Although Elrond makes it out to be a dire warning it is almost exactly as described in “The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen” and that part of the story gives me chills. For those who haven't read that appendix over and over: "[in death] Then a great beauty was revealed in him so that all who after came there looked on him in wonder; for they saw that the grace of his youth, and the valour of his manhood, and the wisdom and majesty of his age were blended together. And long there he lay, an image of the splendour of the Kings of Men in glory undimmed before the breaking of the world. But Arwen went forth from the House, and the light of her eyes was quenched, and it seemed to her people that she had become cold and grey as nightfall in winter that comes without a star. Then she said farewell to Eldarion, and to her daughters, and to all whom she had loved; and she went out fom the city of Minas Tirith and passed away to the land of Lorien, and dwelt there alone under the fading trees until winter came. Galadriel had passed away and Celeborn also was gone, and the land was silent. There at last when the mallorn-leaves were falling, but spring had not yet come, she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world is changed…" After which, @Orual (Orual) added > *Originally posted by UWmite * > **Just need to mention that, as a lady, I thought this was just as much of a bathroom break moment as all the guys I went with. > > Carry on. ** Exactly. If Jackson wanted to add scenes for me or my female friens there would have been more shots of Aragor and Legolas running… or riding on horses… or shooting, hacking, and ass kicking… 8b7c:f320:99b9:690f:4595:cd17:293a:c069pant8b7c:f320:99b9:690f:4595:cd17:293a:c069 Did I mention the running?? So @jsc1953 (jsc1953) replied My reaction to TT is similar to that of my first viewing of FOTR. I was so involved with what's in, what's out, what's changed, what works, that I lost track of the movie. The second viewing was much better, and I"m looking forward to a second viewing of TT. First take: fantastic, incredible, movie, with some unbelievable effects/shots/scenes/characters. Now to the nitpitcks: **What I didn't like:** One too many Arwen flashbacks. Gimli as comic relief is fine, but I would've liked more of a balance with Gimli the kick-ass axe-wielding machine (“never have I seen an axe wielded thus” wasn't in the movie). Osgiliath. This just didn't work. I don't understand why PJ wanted to put the battle for Osgiliath in–it occurred 50 years before the events of the trilogy. And it doesn't **look** right–it looks like it was filmed indoors. The exorcism of Theoden. PJ made the same mistake here as with the Mirror of Galadriel: he took something fairly subtle in the book, and goes way over the top. No huorns. **Neutral:** PJ is setting up some tension in the relationship between Arwen & Aragorn–does she stay or does she go. If you're going to have a major role for Arwen, this makes sense, I guess. Faramir as less-than-noble: I'm ok with that. The Oliphaunts were just a _bit_ too big. Theoden is weaker than he should be, but this is to make Aragorn look more noble in comparison. **The fantastic:** Gandalf & the Balrog as the opening scene. The dead marshes The Black Gate Flying Nazgul The easterlings marching up to the Black Gate. Eowyn as a role, and Miranda Otto as an actress. Wormtongue/Brad Dourif-ditto. Gollum! Totally works. (He's supposed to look like Andy Serkis, but I thought he was a dead ringer for Peter Lorre.) Elven archers at Helm's Deep: blasphemous deviation from the book, but a really spectacular entrance. I loved it! The destruction of Isengard. Fantastic. Some of my favorite TT book scenes are not in–hopefully just deferred until ROTK. (The Voice of Saruman, The Palantir, Minas Morgul–I want to see the noxious river, the green glow, the revolving tower, the host of Mordor issuing forth…). And of course, Cirith Ungol–but I already knew that was pushed back. Then @Homebrew (Homebrew) said > the whole interlude with Arwen/Elrond/Aragorn. I thought it was necessary for those who haven't read the books to really understand the significance of Arwen's devotion and why Aragorn is torn my his emotions towards her. @Gangster_Octopus (Gangster Octopus) replied Well, I read the books, once, about twenty years ago, so I pretty much don't remember a lot of the story in detail I really enjoyed this movie, although not as much as the first. My guess is that this story is less adaptable in the sense that it is really these separate stories that do not converge within the scope of the movie/book, the pacing and tone seems to suffer from this. I also think that Jackson is a little too heavy handed with a lot of the scenes, overly dramatic, overly sweeping. It seems like too often he is
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