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Spider Builds Decoy Imitations to Deflect Predators - ComputerGuru http://news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_8135000/8135844.stm ====== randomwalker Original paper: <http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.anbehav.2009.05.017>	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Temperatures and Prime Numbers - elec3647 http://wareagleengineer.blogspot.com/2014/03/temperatures-and-prime-numbers.html ====== mooism2 Or if you thought for a minute before rushing to write code, you would reflect that any temperature that is a prime number in both Celsius and Fahrenheit must be an integer in both Celsius and Fahrenheit, and therefore must be a multiple of 5 in Celsius. Unless you count -5 as prime (and you don't, or you would have noted that -5C = 23F is prime on both sides), there is only one prime number that is a multiple of 5...	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ask HN: Do you meditate and why? - khetarpal Meditation has several benefits including ability to focus, resist distractions, and manage stress. However, I don't see too many people talking about it in this community. ====== crazydiamond 1\. Yes, I meditate. As of now I don't do sitting eyes-closed meditations regularly (I should). I keep up the state of not-attaching to thought, of remaining in "presence" (also called the I-am or Being). Once you get it, you will recognize what I mean. 2\. Meditation has side benefits of helping with concentration problems, sleep issues, maybe even some psychological issues (there's a lot on it if you google 'meditation and neuro-science'). However, the original and main purpose of meditation was what is called "liberation" or awakening or enlightenment. Along the way, the grip of the fictional mind-created entity called the "self" or "me" weakens and at some stage just collapses. In a few cases this happens suddenly with no practice (e.g. Eckhart Tolle, Sri Ramana Maharshi). What happens further you will just have to experience yourself but this much I can say: as the false self or "ego" weakens and loses control, suffering also reduces and a time comes when you know that mental suffering is over for you. There is far too much material on this. You can spend a whole life just reading (and as a result yourself get nowhere). Everyone will have their favorite books or resources or people. I would recommend Power of Now by Tolle as a very accessible book. There is also Sri Nisargadatta (I am That, and many other works, available on the internet freely in text/pdf form). Most threads on HN recommend mindfulness and give you links to documents for that. Mindfulness puts the attention on the body and thus takes it away from the mental process. The references I gave (similarly) take the attention away from mind to what is present or aware (without going to the body). So these approaches still have a lot in common. Whichever route you take, it is important to start practicing (stilling the mind) asap, and not get caught in the reading trap. ------ eksith Yes, I've had to struggle with OCD on an off and chronic insomnia for about the last 10 years. Before that time, I've had a mild but manageable bout of OCD in high school, but got worse after graduation. My distractions are usually self-inflicted so the outside world doesn't need to do much (just having a book or sock in the wrong place is enough). So I've started listening to white noise a lot of time (I.E. The 10 hour track <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcJ-o_fh1B4>) which does help somewhat while working. What helped me the most so far are breathing exercises. Focusing on breathing is a deceptively simple way to get your mind to sit still for a bit before heading back to work. But it's not just thinking "inhale, exhale". You have to imagine air as a amorphous blob of light. When you inhale, imagine this lighting up the pathway as it enters your nostrils, sinus cavity, bronchial and your lungs. Now when your inhalation is complete, your lungs are full of light. As you exhale, the light leaves the lungs back the way it came (I keep the inhale-exhale cycle at about 3 to 4 seconds). I started with just 1 minute at first (that was the maximum I could devote before my mind wandered off) and now I'm up to about 30 minutes when I have time. The OCD has come down to manageable levels. The insomnia is down a bit too, although I'm making plans to see someone about light-therapy to hopefully "cure" it. ------ SuperContext One of the reasons I meditate is because I find that it allows me to explore certain parts of the world that I believe are not accessible otherwise. This has to do with my meditation style: focusing on the "zeroes." Let me give you an example, when you breathe, you inhale and exhale, but there is a moment when you are neither inhaling nor exhaling, being aware of that moment is what I mean by focusing on the "zeroes." Using language from Zen, it's when expansion and contraction cease. There are zeroes everywhere around us, but we seldom become actively aware of them. I recommend it highly. ------ maximgsaini I do it when I need to relax myself or find an answer. It helps me get rid of some weird feelings. For example, if I'm feeling anxious, meditation can help a lot. For me, it is a very intellectual process and I love it. It is this fun game I play with my inner-self which helps me find out whats really going on. Its also good to find a way out of the bad situations I get myself into. I've even been known to meditate in pretty crowded places as well. People find it weird, but you gotta go when you gotta go!! :) ------ leashless I'm something of a career meditator - six years of an hour a day in my late teens and early twenties, and another decade of regular practice after that. I'm fairly slack about it these days, but the groove is well burned in. In those kinds of quantities you get discontinuous results, but it's a PhD's worth of effort for some fairly intangible rewards. If anybody has questions, ask away. ------ countzeroasl Yes. Two reasons: 1.) Concentration Meditation calms my mind and allows it to settle so that the important thoughts can rise to the top more easily when I'm NOT meditating. 2.) Insight Meditation helps to increase the time between stimulus and my response to such stimuli, allowing me to respond mindfully rather than totally driven by conditioned reaction or instinct. ------ gyardley Just enter 'meditate' in the search box at the bottom of the page. From just a month ago: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5432713> ------ khetarpal Maybe, I'll take it on some day ------ khetarpal Yes ~~~ mattm Why did you answer both "Yes" and "No" to your own question? ~~~ dlf I think it's a failed attempt to set up a poll by the OP. ------ khetarpal No	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ask HN: Is this idea worth pursuing ? - wturner I have an idea for a school. It would be a two year college level (B.A.S.) audio development and programming degree that would basically be 6 months of conventional audio industry training (recording,mixing,DAW,microphone theory,etc) and then 18 months of teaching programming (for audio application,plug ins etc). I figure this would make a great degree program and would be cost effective once implemented.I'm curious what others think. ====== streblo I'd do it ------ cgherb911 Pardon the obvious question, but what jobs require this unique combination of skills? ~~~ ScottWhigham I would assume that you would need this exact skill set if you wanted to be a software engineer for Cubase, ProTools, etc or if you wanted to write plugins for them. ~~~ wturner In effect the course would be teaching programming with an audio theme. I thought it would be a clever way for people interested in audio to learn coding/programming which is obviously a lot more encompassing than just writing plug-ins for Pro Tools (and can be used for other things other than audio). The entire cell phone industry utilizes these skills for example.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
SoftBank Will Invest $2.25B in Cruise - sethbannon http://fortune.com/2018/05/31/softbank-invest-billion-gm-self-driving-car-unit-cruise/ ====== sethbannon Cruise strikes me as the ideal acquisition, and a formula others should copy. Kyle Vogt and the rest of the Cruise founding team got personal liquidity; a huge influx of capital to continue R&D; access to GM's marketing, manufacturing, and talent infrastructure; but retain general independence in the pursuit of the ultimate mission of self-driving cars. Pretty impressed with GM for having the insight to understand that arrangement was best and the flexibility to pull it off. And incredibly impressed with what Kyle and his team have achieved post-acquisition. They clearly remain as hungry to make this happen as on day 1. ~~~ criticali really? have a friend who interviewed there pre GM acquisition. said it was a colossal joke of a place, engineering wise. and hes worked at some sh*thole startups, so i take his word for it. honestly, it was 100% luck GM took notice of them. weren't many other alternatives around at that time. GM buying them spurred the explosion of self-proclaimed software/full stack self driving startups we see today. So Im not as impressed with the achievements so far as I am with the absolute dumb luck these guys have had. Kudos, i guess. ~~~ makes_me_go_hmm I've noticed that when cruise articles pop up here on HN they reliably provoke someone to create a new account express this sentiment. Previous examples are this account: [https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=tmpnam1234567](https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=tmpnam1234567) and this user _Fricken: [https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=_Fricken](https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=_Fricken), who based on choice of username seems to actually be impersonating the submitter of this thread. As to the validity of the criticism I have no idea, but it strikes me as very odd. edit: Fricken (no underscore) didn't actually submit this, but submitted the same article and is here in the comments. ~~~ dang It's all the same person. In addition to having a 'friend' who 'interviewed' at Cruise, they've been an 'engineer' at Cruise, a 'founder' of Cruise, and also the 'cofounder' who left. We've banned all the trolling accounts we know about and their main account as well. ------ creddit Large investments in all the major ride sharing companies + large investment in Cruise, Softbank is becoming, in the background, the future of transportation. By networking all these companies together, preventing cross- market competition and supplying self-driving tech to their players, their market power can be seen to be pretty massive. ~~~ THE_PUN_STOPS Don’t forget Boston Dynamics... my dream of riding around town on a fuel cell powered BigDog may yet come to pass. Yeehaw! ------ samfisher83 GM bought cruise for 1 billion. Softbanks stake would value it at 11 billion. Even if GM put in some money into cruise their return on investment seems pretty good. ~~~ harigov I think softbank isn't just a regular VC. My speculation is that it may provide other services like dealing with govt(s) that makes this offer even more compelling. Otherwise I don't see why GM would need an investment from softbank. ~~~ karthikb It’s not always just about the money. One of the most effective ways to ensure that a long-term project stays alive at a big company as people come and go is to create an external tie-up or partnership. ------ Roritharr Sometimes I wish Deutsche Telekom would go head to head with Softbank in doing these kinds of Investments and Aquisitions. Not because I think they'd be good at it, but more for the fact that this would give Germany a real chance for a seat at the table of future tech- giants. ------ 0x4f3759df Did anyone watch GTC 2018? NVidia has a self-driving software stack that they can drop into a 3D sim. Same stack works in the sim (ie real world has a real camera, sim world has a sim camera, real world has a real lidar, sim world has a sim lidar...) They will drive billions of sim miles with their stack. Hour 1 Minute 58 [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95nphvtVf34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95nphvtVf34) ~~~ dchuk Isn't that what Waymo is doing already? ~~~ jacksmith21006 Yes for awhile. They have a virtual state of California they ride in and have more than a billion miles driving. Would be curious on accidents? Wish Waymo would share? ------ rdlecler1 GM’s head of business development is looking pretty smart right now. ------ indescions_2018 Subtext here is that Cruise's driverless product is done. And the cash wont be spent on further R&D. But on go-to-market strategy. Ultimately culminating in the public rollout of a fleet for major markets. Perhaps centered around the Bolt EV 5-door subcompact. The seismic shift in marketing will be fascinating. From the freedom evoked by taking hairpin curves with the wind tossing your hair about. To a focus on the hardships and hidden costs of car ownership. As passenger attention shifts from watching the road and scenery. To focusing on windowpane display screens. Expect to see branded partnerships with Disney / Netflix. As well as content specifically formulated to entertain or shop during the 20 minute car trip ;) ~~~ wil421 I’m sorry but I disagree. Driverless cars are a pipe dream at this point. A lot of people are going to die and legislation will catch up eventually. The tech isn’t even standardized with everyone taking different approaches. The article about TI millimeter wave radar that’s was on the front page shed some light. I’m sure this won’t be popular on HN. The Uber crash gave some insight on the real state of things. Tesla is in full PR mode even getting banned from the recent crash’s investigation. ~~~ floathub I could not agree more. Softbank and the investment community may just be in greater fool mode. Or, to be more generous, perhaps they are taking a long term approach. But anything close to Level 4/5 is a _long_ way away, as even senior technical folks have been admitting recently. ~~~ Fricken Waymo is already doing level 4. Check it out, a Waymo van was on Jimmy Kimmel the other day: [https://youtu.be/c6twRCBtd-g](https://youtu.be/c6twRCBtd-g) ~~~ soVeryTired Lex Friedman's team at MIT seem to think that fully autonomous driving is a long way off: there are just too many edge cases to deal with. [https://arxiv.org/abs/1711.06976](https://arxiv.org/abs/1711.06976) From the abstract: "Until these problems are solved, human beings will remain an integral part of the driving task, monitoring the AI system as it performs anywhere from just over 0% to just under 100% of the driving". Now there's room to be optimistic or pessimistic about how much an AI can help, but the academic consensus is that level five will need many more research breakthroughs. There are some good video lectures that give an overview of the field (but not that much depth) here: [https://selfdrivingcars.mit.edu/](https://selfdrivingcars.mit.edu/) ~~~ Fricken Lex Fridman's team has drawn their highly disingenuous conclusions based on studies of automated (not autonomous) systems from Volvo, Tesla and Range Rover. They didn't study a single product from a company working on an actual autonomous driving system, and of course they can't because those products are all currently in development and not available to study. ~~~ soVeryTired It's fair to criticize a study but when you start calling an academic researcher 'highly disingenuous', you just sound like you have a horse in the race. Did you found an autonomous driving company or something? ------ repsilat For a man on the street to invest in Cruise, would he need to invest in GM? (Or "invest in GM and short Ford" or something?) It sounds like they're serious business, but I don't want to dilute a bet on self-driving cars with a bet on consumer trucks. ~~~ jonknee Yes, which is up over 10% on this news. The good news is consumer trucks are massively profitable which can fund making autonomous vehicles. ~~~ zitterbewegung All the American car makers only really sell trucks and all of the other Cars don't make up much money on their balance sheet.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Scott Wiener proposes 3 new housing bills for CA - sid-kap https://medium.com/@Scott_Wiener/california-needs-a-housing-first-agenda-my-2018-housing-package-1b6fe95e41da ====== foolfoolz SB 827 creates density and height zoning minimums near transit. Under SB 827, parcels within a half-mile of high-connectivity transit hub — like BART, Muni, Caltrain, and LA Metro stations — will be required to have no density maximums (such as single family home mandates), no parking minimums, and a minimum height limit of between 45 and 85 feet, depending on various factors, such as whether the parcel is on a larger corridor and whether it is immediately adjacent to the station. A local ordinance can increase that height but not go below it. SB 827 allows for many more smaller apartment buildings, described as the “missing middle” between high-rise steel construction and single family homes. I think this is overstepping a lot and I hope it fails. Muni is very much within san francisco where there is high density housing, but does this mean all stops? There's a million muni stops and some of them are in areas that don't need such high density. BART can travel very far outside the city to less dense areas. Some caltrain stations are very suburban. This says all parcels within half mile of those station need to be higher density, that is a LOT of homes. You are telling those people who live there that they can never rebuild? If they want to rebuild their house they need to make it into an apartment complex? Is their parcel even big enough for that? There's hundreds and hundreds of 5,000sqft lots within a half mile of caltrain. Your house burns down in a fire, you cant build it back? A 45 foot house would be at least 3 stories. It's one thing to say we need more dense homes in this area. But if the area was designed and laid our for single family homes with small single family lots, how is putting a 3 story house on those small lots going to help? It's also saying there's no minimum parking requirements. Not that you could really get any underground parking on some of these lots but street parking is going to be trashed as well? It's the suburbs! You do need a car out there! Caltrain/Bart is not the only form of transportation you use! This seems really shortsighted and ignores the problem that each city and community is a little different. Some cities along the Bart/Caltrain lines could handle this. Others could not. A top down approach saying everything is the same and must follow these rules is not going to work ~~~ Kalium > You are telling those people who live there that they can never rebuild? If > they want to rebuild their house they need to make it into an apartment > complex? Is it possible you have misparsed "minimum height limit" as a set of minimum requirements on height? I believe it refers to a minimum on height limits, saying that lots cannot be zoned to be one-story-only. Your hypothetical family will be able to rebuild under this. > This seems really shortsighted and ignores the problem that each city and > community is a little different. Some cities along the Bart/Caltrain lines > could handle this. Others could not. A top down approach saying everything > is the same and must follow these rules is not going to work You're absolutely right right! This is, in a great many ways, very far from an ideal approach. It refuses to offer the kind of flexibility that individual cities and communities could use to best benefit their residents. The problem is that these cities and communities have taken that liberty and spent decades abusing it. They have, by and large, used their rights to decide that the appropriate amount of development for them is little to none. This legislation has the feel of a response to those abuses. ------ tlb What precisely does "X% of people in an metropolitan statistical area cannot afford local rent?" mean? Aren't all those people paying rent now? If not, in what sense are they "in" an area? If so, in what sense can they not "afford" it? A large category of people not paying rent is homeowners. Retired homeowners might have small incomes that suggest they can't afford rent, but because they own their home they are fine. Are they part of X%? What is "local rent"? Perhaps they mean an average of the area. If so, it's not surprising that a good fraction can't afford the average rent, so they live in below-average apartments. Any healthy housing market would have this. What is "afford"? Is there some percentage of income they're assumed to be able to pay as rent? If some people decide to spend a higher percentage of their income on rent because they care about their neighborhood more than eating out or buying gadgets, do they belong in a statistic that seems designed to show how unaffordable housing is? I imagine one could write definitions of the above terms to get X anywhere from 0% to 100%. ------ skybrian How does this compare with the dynamic height restrictions advocated by the Strong Towns blog? For more about the problem: [https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2016/10/23/portland- hous...](https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2016/10/23/portland-housing- prices) ------ sidlls This is all tinkering around the edges. It may help some, but in general it's still not sufficient to address the problems with housing in this state, and especially in the hardest hit regions (e.g. Bay Area). I really think that a policy of much denser housing in urban areas must be enacted, including liberal application of eminent domain to reduce the existing stock of low-density homes. Requiring minimum heights within a tiny area around transit hubs helps but just doesn't even come close to addressing the problem. Applying additional taxes on individual owner dwellings (including single- family homes, condos and townhouses) that aren't primary residences would be a huge step also. It should be very expensive for someone to own these properties and not occupy them. At the same time, significant tax discounts tied to passing on the savings to renters for multi-family, high-density dwellings ought to be considered. ~~~ sid-kap "transit hubs" may have been the wrong term to use... I think he's proposing these new rules anywhere within 1/4-1/2 mile of any transit stop with 15 min frequency or better. So it's probably a larger area than you think. ------ nickgrosvenor Supply & Demand is the problem, solve it and you have a viable solution.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Diagrams: A brand new diagram editor for Mac - lukaskubanek https://diagrams.app ====== soapboxrocket So as a long time OmniGraffle user this looks really nice, clean and simple. I've fallen out of love with OmniGraffle because I spend more time fighting it then I do working with it. This also looks great because it's not a subscription. But it also doesn't have many features, which is why the price is so great. What the site doesn't show is how much customization I can create. I might be showing my age, but I miss shareware, the ability to try a software out before I buy it. Of course I think I still have Q-Crack floating around somewhere so... ------ j88439h84 The comparison to existing tools doesn't mention any of the other tools in this category, just tools in other categories. ~~~ lukaskubanek Hi, the developer of Diagrams here. I think your point is very valid and we’ll consider adding this information. We can think of online tools like LucidChart and draw.io. What desktop Mac apps would you include in this category? ~~~ m8rl OmniGraffle [https://www.omnigroup.com/omnigraffle](https://www.omnigroup.com/omnigraffle) ------ leokaessner I really like the simplicity and the easy to use interface. My new way of creating value adding flowcharts. ------ timmz Fantastic! I've been waiting for this day since years. I used the alpha and beta versions almost every day and love how professional the app got in 1.0 Bought it instantly. :-) ------ oddysseey lovely!	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Plane – a social icebreaker to connect people in new places - listentojohan http://tryplane.com/ ====== kseistrup Seems to be iPhone only… ~~~ listentojohan Yes. I'd imagine that they'll work on that in the future as they are just now launching it to a broader audience.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Typographic Programming Language - nickmain http://joshondesign.com/2014/08/22/typopl ====== seanmcdirmid I've been doing some of this in my latest prototype; check out [http://research.microsoft.com/en- us/people/smcdirm/managedti...](http://research.microsoft.com/en- us/people/smcdirm/managedtime.aspx) (look at the last few examples; it is not ready so please don't submit it to HN). A few notes: We convert () into a box for viewing, but de-convert it back to () when the line is selected for editing. Unicode (and non-uncide special characters) is used as a rendering for ascii based operators. So >= is rendered as "≥"; however, for editing to work, we add a dot at the end so the character count remains the same, so its actually "≥∙", if you delete the dot, you are basically deleting the ascii "=" so the character becomes ">". I thought about colors and graphics, but they create huge real estate issues, and they aren't widely applicable. Also, people get what "red" is while the literal color red is quite ambiguous. Rather than find a new symbol for multiplication, it probably makes more sense to render the single x variable differently (as well as other single variable identifiers like i and j). I haven't implemented this yet, but its on my list. If you look at the videos, you'll see that static and run-time errors are rendered underneath the tokens they are related to. The idea is to keep the feedback as close to the code as possible. ------ __david__ Isn't this really just clever syntax highlighting? Emacs, for instance, can already draw boxes around things. I spent about 5 minutes and got close[1]. If you had something like "pretty-symbols" installed [2] then you could probably make the quotes characters themselves not even show up at all. You could probably also do it with some font-lock code. If it's more than syntax highlighting, then how do you make the "quoted" text? What keypress to you use to start and end the markup that signifies quotes? Maybe the quote key ;-)? [1] [http://i.imgur.com/BNO5fNJ.png](http://i.imgur.com/BNO5fNJ.png) [2] [https://github.com/drothlis/pretty- symbols](https://github.com/drothlis/pretty-symbols) ~~~ leni536 If the source file format for the language is not stored as plain text but it's already in a tree like file format then no, it's not just syntax highlighting but the natural way to handle this file. I could imagine a source file format where the nodes have different types for different literals. There would be much less parsing problem than parsing plain text, of course it would need a special editor. ~~~ __david__ Already in a tree format like lisp? Or some binary structure? Even if it's some fancy binary format, it's still going to have to be parsed by the compiler and the editor (and thoroughly checked for syntax errors), making it no better than what we already have now (just different). And unless those node types are "green round-rectangle", then I posit that it's still syntax highlighting, since the editor is deciding how to display "string node". ~~~ ksrm Wouldn't storing and editing source code as an AST make a lot of syntax errors impossible? ~~~ __david__ User-created syntax errors, possibly. But it can't completely eliminate them: 5 ↤ "hello" Now you could argue that the editor might detect that and not allow it, but if your abstract syntax tree data structure can support it, then you _will_ be handed it at some point and so you should detect it. But more importantly, the abstract tree itself has to be stored. Whatever the format (binary or otherwise), that has to be checked, too (unless you want buffer overflows or code execution exploits in your compiler/editor). All in all, it sounds like the same stuff compilers already have to deal with, so I don't think it wouldn't be a win there. ------ wkm Mathematica/Wolfram Language enables this with quite a bit of success, but it's by no means a silver bullet. The reality is this does not change semantics. [http://www.wolfram.com/language/fast-introduction-for- progra...](http://www.wolfram.com/language/fast-introduction-for- programmers/real-world-entities/) ------ fidotron There are definitely things like LISPs with AST editors, or Squeak and the blocks, but the closest to what you're on about would be [http://colorforth.com/](http://colorforth.com/) which is "niche" but has a strong heritage. ------ jrochkind1 APL uses/used non-ascii characters. I don't think most people think of that was one of it's strong points. What seems to have caught on instead is editors that use syntax highlighting/formatting to show ascii source code in not-pure-ascii ways. It would be interesting to take this further. ~~~ nawitus JavaScript also supports non-ascii characters in variables. You can make some pretty beautiful code involving mathematics (if the formula happens to be simple enough, that is). E.g.: { C: r => 2 * π * r } ------ rrggrr I believe these visual cues work against thinking in code and delay learning, though the concept has use as a debugging layer, or transitory programming aid. That said, truly visual and/or AI assisted programming, well executed, could blows the doors off programming productivity and accessibility. ------ sparkie Related: [http://tratt.net/laurie/blog/entries/an_editor_for_composed_...](http://tratt.net/laurie/blog/entries/an_editor_for_composed_programs) (posted a few days ago here: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8201707](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8201707)). There's a link inside to their paper on Language Boxes, which formalize the whole idea. It uses an incremental parser where nodes of the syntax tree can be opaque "boxes" which could contain any other nested AST, as the languages are parsed separately. It does a nice job of tackling the syntax composition problems, of which the proposals seem like a special case. As Tratt points out though, the ideas are not particularly novel - they've been around for decades, but are usually met with resistance as they break existing workflows or programmer expectations. The design philosophy behind Eco, their prototype editor for language boxes, is that it should look and behave almost exactly like a traditional text editor. It does support highlighting of inner languages when they're selected, but the highlighting is usually not visible. I'm pretty sure we could turn them always on and get the kind of appearance this post is looking for. ------ mkohlmyr Am I completely wrong in thinking that this isn't really e.g. "removing delimeters", but effectively changing the delimeters into invisible markup?.. It seems to me kind of an arbitrary distinction whether the way you represent a string to a compiler is with quotes or markup that renders a green box. As far as the concatenation thing surely that's solvable by a grammar that interprets a single line list of expressions as an implicit concatenation. It doesn't seem like something that requires a particularly smart compiler - or a new IDE. Maybe I'm overlooking something inherently hard about the problem though. ~~~ Derbasti I think the deeper point is not about the highlighting, but the ability to interact with the code semantically. If your editor was completely aware of the semantic structure of your code, it could provide very powerful refactorings that respected line-associated comments and things like that. For example, it you would type a string, and wouldn't need to worry about whether it is represented as multi-line string or not or how to properly escape newlines and special characters. Your editor would know that you are typing a string and do the appropriate thing. That said, many advanced IDEs do have very sophisticated syntax parsers which can do many of these things already. Light Table and Lisps evolve this even further. I would imagine that a language designed with this use case in mind would enable even tighter integration with the development environment though. ------ kps The languages that first became popular were restricted to the inflexible orthography of pre-computer punched-card accounting systems, but they aren't the whole story. Other early programming languages took advantage teletypewriter I/O, and used features like two-color ribbons (e.g. with comments in red) and half-line motions for superscripts (exponentiation) and subscripts. Some, like COLASL, MADCAP, and Klerer-May system, even accepted expressions typed in two-dimensional form. ~~~ kps This (free PDF) article contains some examples of programming with typed two- dimensional input: M. Klerer and J. May, _A user oriented programming language_ , The Computer Journal (1965) 8 (2): 103-109. doi:10.1093/comjnl/8.2.103 [http://comjnl.oxfordjournals.org/content/8/2/103.abstract](http://comjnl.oxfordjournals.org/content/8/2/103.abstract) ------ ludamad It's definitely an idea I've thought about a lot (and would gladly work on). I really think strictly using plain-text as the interface to the compiler is a dead-end for language design. Language designers base features around what's symbols are available in ASCII... What would be needed of course would be library support for extending this interface. For example, an image library, and a complementary IDE plugin for managing image resources. ~~~ the_af One huge thing plain text representation has going for it is the diversity of text editors, and the fact they can be trivially swapped. In my opinion, "visual" source code representations will also be a dead-end if it means propietary, mutually incompatible IDEs. ------ vegedor It might be nice to read code like this, but what is the big idea? I had to use labview and out of comfort opted for the script engine to implement as much as it could, because the graphical building blocks still represent the same syntax. Not particularly hard to implement a code viewer for the specific examples and the parser is one of the less complicated parts of a compiler, i suppose. Instead of quotes as delimiters you get e.g. xml tags, that the editor generates. ~~~ backlava Seems like everyone who spends 20 minutes designing a programming language comes up with this idea or similar. Yawn. Syntax isn't what makes programming hard. ~~~ seanmcdirmid It is not about writing, but about reading. We actually spend most of our time doing the latter rather than the former. ~~~ backlava A nice syntax that makes things easier to read is a nice to have. It doesn't make writing or reading programs substantially easier, though. IMO. ~~~ seanmcdirmid Did you contradict yourself or am I missing something between the first and second sentence? ~~~ backlava Maybe the word 'substantially' ~~~ seanmcdirmid Fair enough. I guess you don't really believe in UX design either, since how something looks and feels is orthogonal to its functionality. ~~~ backlava The shallower the problem you're solving, the more important UX issues will be, relatively. When you're writing complex software, putting the text in boxes instead of quotes matters approximately not at all. ~~~ seanmcdirmid Programming language designers are basically UX designers for the task of programming. It's all very important, or Lisp would be much more popular than it is. ------ dom96 This reminds me of Scratch. Indeed, it seems that if you would develop this idea further you would end up with something resembling Scratch. ------ joshmarinacci Hi. I'm Josh, the original author. Sorry, I didn't realize someone posted this to HackerNews. I'm happy to answer any questions you have. I've also posted a follow up to my blog, this time focusing on fonts. [http://joshondesign.com/2014/08/25/typopl2](http://joshondesign.com/2014/08/25/typopl2) ~~~ seanmcdirmid Hi Josh, You might want to check out this LTU thread: [http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4733](http://lambda-the- ultimate.org/node/4733) You can find much old work on code typography linked there, like [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mG0lyGekGDs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mG0lyGekGDs) [http://www.othmanismail.com/classes/GPH352/ReadingArticles/D...](http://www.othmanismail.com/classes/GPH352/ReadingArticles/Design%20principles%20for%20the%20enhanced%20presentation%20of%20computer%20program%20source%20text.pdf) [http://books.google.ca/books/about/Human_factors_and_typogra...](http://books.google.ca/books/about/Human_factors_and_typography_for_more_re.html?id=QstWAAAAMAAJ) I'm kind of disappointed (but not surprised) that you didn't try a proportional font for code...it is my mission in life to banish fixed-width fonts from the earth. ------ zokier While we are listing "typographic" languages, Fortress from Sun deserves a mention. Its syntax was designed to be renderable as LaTeX to get nice typography. Here is one small example: [https://software.intel.com/en- us/articles/first-impressions-...](https://software.intel.com/en- us/articles/first-impressions-of-the-fortress-language) edit: more extensive example: [http://imgur.com/a/grrzl](http://imgur.com/a/grrzl) (from [http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr/Teaching/CoursAnnecy/0506-Ma...](http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr/Teaching/CoursAnnecy/0506-Master/ForPresentations/Fortress- PLDITutorialSlides9Jun2006.pdf) ) ------ ar-nelson In my mind, the ideal way to accomplish this would be: \- Encode the program in a data format like JSON or XML. Ideally, this should be readable (though verbose) on its own. \- Create an IDE that renders the JSON/XML using the typographical stylistic flourishes, and that possibly allows the definition of new styled "blocks". This could even be done with CSS. Creating a language that is sufficiently connected to its IDE that it can define new syntax highlighting, autocompletion, etc. in the code itself would go a long way toward making something like this practical. DrRacket ([http://racket-lang.org/](http://racket-lang.org/)) sort of does this already; it even has image literals! ~~~ nawitus Why use JSON or XML instead of storing it as code? The IDE can parse it even if it's normal code. In fact, all IDEs already parse and understand the code to a degree. ------ colanderman This is the idea behind colorForth: [http://www.colorforth.com/cf.htm](http://www.colorforth.com/cf.htm) wherein color has semantic meaning (i.e., it's not just syntax highlighting). ~~~ seanmcdirmid I believe these ideas are separate. I don't think the author is proposing that format be a part of language semantics, just that we should format better. ~~~ colanderman I dunno, colored boxes around strings instead of quotes sounds an awful lot like format being part of semantics. ------ shaurz This blog post misunderstands the concept of "sufficiently smart compiler". He even links to the c2 wiki page for it, yet if he actually read it he would realize it has nothing to do with what he is writing about... ------ the_af At the end of the article the author mentions IDEs, but also says "if only our compilers were sufficiently smart". Why? What do compilers have to do with the pretty-fied visual representation of the code, and corresponding input methods? Isn't this all about the IDE? Also, what's the big deal with removing quotes? I didn't know they were hard to read or understand. Are we removing them from books as well? I'd welcome a nice rendering of mathematical formulas, sure. But that's merely presentation. ~~~ cheepin The deal with having string literals not be delimited by actual characters is that you don't have to escape characters. What you see is what you get. ~~~ rwallace Still completely unnecessary. The editor can display the string minus the escape characters with whatever color, highlighting etc. you like, and still keep the escape characters in the code as stored on disk for the compiler's benefit. Basically, if you want an editor that displays code with colors and boxes instead of delimiters, that's fine; writing one would be a practical project. It is neither necessary nor desirable to attempt to design a new language, write a new compiler, version control system and half a dozen other ancillary tools at the same time as part of the same project. ------ ilaksh Along the lines of some things I have proposed before like in this post [http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4998](http://lambda-the- ultimate.org/node/4998) or this one [http://lambda-the- ultimate.org/node/3033](http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/3033) (need to read most of my comments in there to get to the details of the idea). ------ lucianp I like the idea of an intermediary step between textual programming and visual programming. However the author only discusses how the symbols are rendered. What about input methods? I can think of a few options: use keyboard shortcuts, use the mouse, implement some kind of modal editor (vim-like) or a use special keyboard (APL keyboard comes to mind)? ~~~ DougWebb That's simple... to start a string literal, you type a ", and as you type the green box will continue to expand to contain what you're typing until you type another " to end the literal. This is, somehow, better... ~~~ seanmcdirmid Simply render "xxxx" differently and you are about done; e.g. render it as ˹xxxx˼ with some background highlight. Incremental text input is a different problem. If you only have to deal with a batch renderer, then no change is needed; if you have an interactive IDE, you might want to complete the closing " so feedback remains sane. ------ ginko What I don't see is how the compiler is supposed to distinguish strings from int and byte array literals in those examples. ------ Gravityloss I am skeptical, it is yet another level of indirection. You write ascii code with control sequences that is compiled to this semi graphical representation, and then that is compiled to running code. You can't write the semi graphical code directly anyway. It would make more sense is with a custom keyboard perhaps, like apl. ------ wyager Re. units, see the dimensional library in Haskell. It encodes units at the type level. Re. encoding data like images at the program level; this is not suitable for general purpose languages (IMHO) because it forces an implementation on the programmer. It's fine for relatively narrow-purpose languages like Mathematica. ------ overgard I normally hate visual programming languages, but I really like this idea. Still symbolic, but adding a representation where you can... it makes a lot of sense to me. I could imagine an IDE where it still serializes/deserializes to normal text, but you edit it in a mode like this. ------ britknight For an example of how this can go horribly wrong, look at the keyboard required to code in APL ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APL_(programming_language)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APL_$programming_language$)). ~~~ jacquesm I don't think that's all that horrible. If specialist tools require some training to use and have user interfaces that are extremely productive nobody bats an eye. A specialist keyboard for a programming language with very high productivity would make good sense. Remember that when APL was created these things were not set in stone and what seems wrong to you in retrospect made perfectly good sense at the time (and in fact still makes perfectly good sense today, it's just that the world has moved on from APL to languages that are more verbose and/or that do not require symbols like these). Math is another such language, and there is no keyboard suitable for entering mathematical expressions so we use software like LaTeX instead. At least with the APL keyboard the link between input and display was very direct, with LaTeX much less so. ------ CMCDragonkai You would need new input methods, because with ascii, the src code shows what you need to input. But how do you input a colour? There's no standardised method. Also all the other text based channels need to be upgraded at the same time. ------ melloclello What we need is a generic tree editor for directly editing your code's parse tree. ~~~ DonPellegrino Woah, just imagine the endless metaprogramming capabilities! ~~~ melloclello Imagine... A tree editor that could edit itself... [http://i.imgur.com/j74SykU.gif](http://i.imgur.com/j74SykU.gif) ~~~ pcmonk I actually wrote one of those a while back: [http://pcmonk.wordpress.com/2014/03/19/phlisped-an- experimen...](http://pcmonk.wordpress.com/2014/03/19/phlisped-an-experiment- in-graphical-programming/) ~~~ melloclello I remember watching your video dude, I like your work ------ babarock Could this help us avoid the ugliness of nesting quotes and backslash-escaping hell? ~~~ xentronium Backslash-hell can be solved in ASCII-based languages too. E.g. in ruby there are several ways to have a string literal: "hello world" "hello, #{name}!" # interpolation %{hello world} %{hello, #{name}!} # interpolation %{hello, "#{name}"} # interpolation with quotes %\|hello, "#{name}"\| # you can use other kinds of surrounding "brackets" if you don't like curly ones ------ taeric Seriously, try emacs. You want to see what color you have put in a css field?[1] Want to see the image you are referencing in a repl?[2] More amazingly, want to combine TeX, lisp, a markdown like language, and python/whatever in a single document? Try org-mode.[3][4] [1] [http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/i/emacs_xah_css_mode_2014-04-22.p...](http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/i/emacs_xah_css_mode_2014-04-22.png) [2] [http://www.nongnu.org/geiser/geiser_3.html#Seeing-is- believi...](http://www.nongnu.org/geiser/geiser_3.html#Seeing-is-believing) [3] [http://orgmode.org/worg/org- screenshots.html](http://orgmode.org/worg/org-screenshots.html) [4] [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-dUkyn_fZA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-dUkyn_fZA) ------ lumpypua The mac app Soulver gets pretty close to this, although it's more of a math scratch pad than a programming language: [http://i.imgur.com/kqWGw3W.png](http://i.imgur.com/kqWGw3W.png) ------ ballpoint Mathematica has a few of these features. If you paste in an image from a previous operation, then the image is shown inline in the piece of code you're typing. ------ malkia That'll be painful to merge, especially in big teams. ~~~ m_mueller That's why it wasn't presented as a solution, rather as an inspiration. IMO it makes more sense to _read_ code like this, editing it can still be done with the usual delimiters. I'd see an editor that by default shows the formatted code but for lines with an active cursor, it switches to plaintext. ~~~ malkia I was thinking in terms of say do a diff between previous versions of the files stored in svn, p4, git, etc. - and then keep in mind that these might be diffed/merged/viewed/reviewed in tons of different ways - from automatic tools checking certain coding rules, or expanding $fields$ (perforce/rcs), or reviewing online (ReviewBoard), or who knows what. so far TEXT files (ASCII, utf-8, utf-16, etc.) have made most sense for source code, when comes to huge group of people (100+).	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
An idea to get significantly more web surfers -- including savvy ones -- to read ads. - amichail The idea is to adapt http://www.readmytweets.com to work with ads instead of tweets.<p>Note that if your product/service isn't very good, then maybe you will get tired of reading other people's ads without much benefit. In that case, your ad(s) won't be shown much anymore.<p>Do you think it will work? ====== trickjarrett A few notes: 1) This idea has been explored before, there were a few services in the first dot-com bubble that tried this idea. 2) Conversion would be horribly low. This would draw people who would click through as quickly as possible to make the maximum ROI for their time. Oh sure if you make it necessary for the user to click through, you'll see conversions in terms of clicks / impressions, but the advertisers will see very little in terms of conversions into sales. 3) Most ad systems, Google Ads etc. actively disallow this sort of system. So any ads would have to be in house and thus fully funded by the financial backing of the person posting the ad. ~~~ amichail Which services tried this idea? Also, could you elaborate on (3)? I'm not sure what you mean. Of course, I would not be using ads already submitted into other ad services in this approach. But are you saying I can't even make money from adsense on the same page?	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Detecting debuggers by abusing a bad assumption within Windows - j_s http://www.triplefault.io/2017/08/detecting-debuggers-by-abusing-bad.html ====== SteveJS This is really cool. You can also detect a debugger on windows by using one of the apis provided, such as IsDebuggerAttached, or is debuggerpresent. [https://msdn.microsoft.com/en- us/library/windows/desktop/ms6...](https://msdn.microsoft.com/en- us/library/windows/desktop/ms680345$v=vs.85$.aspx) ~~~ dfox Debugger can trap calls into that and return whatever it wants, also this API only returns true for user-mode debuggers. Point of most anti-debugging measures is to detect debuggers that are actively trying to hide their presence. ~~~ ravenstine Even with a user mode debugger, those APIs aren't hard to thwart in x86 Windows. I don't know if that's really still the case with newer architectures; the last version of Windows I used was Windows 7. [https://stackoverflow.com/questions/10330147/how-do-i- bypass...](https://stackoverflow.com/questions/10330147/how-do-i-bypass- isdebuggerpresent-with-ollydbg) Even if that weren't the case, it's not a big feat to run a Windows program with a version of Kernel32.dll that has isdebuggerpresent as a no-op. If I recall correctly, you only needed to take those measures if you were trying to modify a program that extracted itself into memory where it would be particularly difficult to "debug". Otherwise you could create bypasses for those API calls using just a disassembler. My memory on this is pretty rusty, though. My guess is that API doesn't exist so much to discourage reverse engineering as it is to prevent certain code from executing if a debugger is being used legitimately, or to provide extra data to a debugger. It is(or at least was) used as a way to make reverse engineering difficult, but it's very ineffective. ~~~ SteveJS Yes, there are a bunch of legitimate use cases for large scale development where you want inline tools to assist QA and diagnostic issues. The Visual Studio codebase had (may have changed now) a dialog for debug asserts allowing you to suppress a single instance, suppress repeat instances of just that assert, or suppress all asserts, as well as a bunch of other features. I believe later versions of that macro made use of IsDebuggerPresent to change behavior when the process was being debugged or not. (I believe previous versions made use of a -different- hack to implement IsDebuggerPresent.)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Show HN: Flashfed.com – a flash sale aggregator powered by machine learning - Toast_ https://flashfed.com/?ref=hn ====== Toast_ Hi, I was hoping to get some feedback for my MVP. I'm currently using a least-squares linear regression model trained with n-gram (unigrams) feature hashing, based on various social media metrics, with a heavy weight on sharing. It spits out a number between 1-50, with 25 being the most common. Pretty much everything is automated with Huginn[0]: web scraping, data formatting, interaction with Azure ML[1], all of which is fed into a wordpress install using the pluginhunt[2] theme. Let me know what you think! [0]: [https://github.com/huginn/huginn](https://github.com/huginn/huginn) [1]: [https://studio.azureml.net/](https://studio.azureml.net/) [2]: [https://epicthemes.com/product/plugin-hunt- theme/](https://epicthemes.com/product/plugin-hunt-theme/)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
WikiLeaks: “Hillary Emails: Google Tried to Boost Assad Defections” - paganel https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/711135400983699456 ====== gpm Lots of people here are talking about skewing search results, but it doesn't seem like we have any evidence Google did that. All the email says they did was create a tool to visualize data, and give it to the press. The article linked talks about a few other things Google did, but the closest they get to manipulating search results is putting “Live! Secretary Kerry answers questions on Syria. Today via Hangout at 2pm ET.” on the homepage below the search box. A politically neutral statement advertising a unique source of (biased) information, and their own product. This is the moral equivalent of reddit advertising an AMA with Obama, or Elon Musk as far as I can see. ~~~ nostrademons This was a very different branch of Google than Search. The email was from Jared Cohen, who I had to look up to verify that he even worked at Google (apparently, he left the State Department in 2010 to become a director at Google Ideas). I never saw so much as an email or presentation while I was at Google; my understanding is that he operated in a siloed part of Google (now Alphabet) whose mission specifically was to spread democracy across the world: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jigsaw_(company)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jigsaw_$company$) ~~~ tamana "Google Ideas" is a rather creepy name for a company whose mission is international propaganda. I guess it's good thhey changed it to Jigsaw to reduce tarnish to the Google brand. Funny that Alphabet sold Boston Dynamics because people think robots are scary, but doesn't mind keeping the international intrigue division. ------ DominikR I believe that this kind of behaviour will be the reason why the Internet as we know it and are used to it will end some day. We will have many island solutions with firewalls around them just to prevent foreign powers from interfering in internal political processes. For example I certainly do not like what Erdogan is doing in Turkey (cutting off Facebook and Twitter), but is he wrong when he is accusing foreign powers from trying to incite demonstrations or manipulate public opinion? I'm pretty sure he is not. Same goes for China, Russia and all the other countries that are implementing or already have finished implementing their own great firewall. There is no reason in the world why any country should ever accept this. (I doubt the US would ever accept China doing this to them) But there are also serious internal problems. For one Google could influence the US presidential elections by skewing search results and making certain candidates look bad and others good. I'm sure almost 100% of Google employees would never support such a thing, but when Google does this regarding Syria you can't really be sure that they wouldn't do this internally too. ~~~ merpnderp "I'm sure almost 100% of Google employees would never support such a thing..." Even to stop Trump? I'm betting quite a few employees, especially at the top, wouldn't mind tweaking things to stop what they see as a very real threat. ~~~ wyldfire Trump's pretty bad IMO, but worst case scenario he'd only be the president. There's really good checks against the president's power. The unfortunate (glaring) exception being that we've somehow lost track of the bit about Congress being the only one who can execute a declaration of war. ~~~ deciplex A lot of those "checks" are just things that Presidents historically don't do, not that they're prohibited from doing so by the Constitution. Even then, it's not clear that Trump really gives a shit about the Constitution. Like all contemporary Presidents he would decide what he wants to do _first_ and then have his lawyers provide some veneer of constitutionality to it, but in Trump's case the bar for such would probably be really, really low. He's already mentioned going after news outlets that criticize him. What else can the President do? Can he instruct the military/NSA to spy on every sitting Congressman and Senator, and blackmail them? That's not explicitly unconstitutional, and these days "explicitly unconstitutional" seems to be the only thing that matters (i.e. unless the Constitution actually says you can't do a thing, then you can do that thing). What are the President's actual powers during a time of war, especially if the theater is in America itself? Can he mobilize the military in response to a domestic terrorist attack, and if so what sort of plenary power does he have domestically? And the more important question, really, is not "what does the Constitution say" but rather "what are the American people ready for"? If Trump does become President, the answer would seem to be "quite a lot of really scary shit". ------ mgraczyk The map discussed in the email, for those interested. [http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/interactive/syriadefections...](http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/interactive/syriadefections/2012730840348158.html?utm_content=automate&utm_campaign=Trial6&utm_source=NewSocialFlow&utm_term=plustweets&utm_medium=MasterAccount) ~~~ gbuk2013 "In collaboration with: movements.org" \- in Assange's article[1] about his meeting with Eric Schmidt he mentions: \--- Gen Next also backs an NGO, launched by Cohen toward the end of his State Department tenure, for bringing internet-based global “pro-democracy activists” into the US foreign relations patronage network. The group originated as the “Alliance of Youth Movements” with an inaugural summit in New York City in 2008 funded by the State Department and encrusted with the logos of corporate sponsors. [...] In 2011, the Alliance of Youth Movements rebranded as “Movements.org.” In 2012 Movements.org became a division of “Advancing Human Rights,” a new NGO set up by Robert L. Bernstein after he resigned from Human Rights Watch (which he had originally founded) because he felt it should not cover Israeli and US human rights abuses. Advancing Human Rights aims to right Human Rights Watch’s wrong by focusing exclusively on “dictatorships.” Cohen stated that the merger of his Movements.org outfit with Advancing Human Rights was “irresistible,” pointing to the latter’s “phenomenal network of cyberactivists in the Middle East and North Africa.” He then joined the Advancing Human Rights board, which also includes Richard Kemp, the former commander of British forces in occupied Afghanistan. In its present guise, Movements.org continues to receive funding from Gen Next, as well as from Google, MSNBC, and PR giant Edelman, which represents General Electric, Boeing, and Shell, among others. \--- Fascinating stuff - a glimpse into the murky world of international politics for someone like me who generally has no idea. [1] [https://wikileaks.org/google-is-not-what-it- seems/](https://wikileaks.org/google-is-not-what-it-seems/) ~~~ progressive_dad Google, The Bill and Melinda Gates foundation, and Edelman all strongly courted Obama staffers in 2012 during and after the election. There are many close ties between these companies and the current administration. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if movements.org was simply another funnel for these organizations to continue to splash money and favors in their direction. How depressing would it be to know your job and existence is basically a bribe, with no expectation to make a meaningful contribution to the world? I'm picturing some enterprising recent college graduate thinking they're going there to change the world and getting laughed out of the room after laying out a plan to make them more effective. I need a shower just thinking about it. ~~~ tamana So your idea is that companies give money to employee Y of X, as a bribe to X (who likes the company better because they game X money), and that's bad because Y is somehow unable to use money effectively, but X is able to use money effectively? ------ throwaway9ttt From the original article: "The last forty years has seen a huge proliferation of think tanks and political NGOs whose purpose, beneath all the verbiage, is to execute political agendas by proxy." This is how powerful governments shape the world: 1\. Create ideas (lies) 2\. Get the press to constantly write those ideas 3\. Change the truth Once the truth is shaped you can now do what you want. In fact you now have to do required things to keep your country safe. Examples: Millions of people unnecessarily dying in Iraq and Syria. ------ jnaour Made me thinks of the last season of House of Cards. Really a good one, really neat and engaged in some aspect like Reign by Terror, Manufacturing consent using search engine, relation with Russia... One of other HN article is about Facebook data used for social studies. If you are not paying for it, you're not the customer; you're the product being sold. ~~~ baldfat > If you are not paying for it, you're not the customer; you're the product > being sold. I hear this all the time but it's message is a bit off. I'll quote this page [http://powazek.com/posts/3229](http://powazek.com/posts/3229) 1) Assumption: This is new or unique to the internet 2) Assumption: You’re either the product or the customer 3) My Favorite - Assumption: Companies you pay treat you better (Comcast Anyone?) ~~~ toyg 4) Assumption: companies have one and one only type of customer / product. ------ golergka Well — is there anyone who would paint Google as bad guys because of this? How and why? ~~~ adwf This particular incident? No. It's the fact that they're doing this kind of thing at all is the problem. People have been worrying for years about the filter bubble that Google put you in; could you imagine if they tried to skew the US election? This document provides some evidence that they've certainly been thinking along those lines. ~~~ golergka Jared Cohen is a director of Google Ideas, now called Jigsaw under Alphabet. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jigsaw_(company)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jigsaw_$company$) The email is lacking context, but it appears that they gather data from open sources, not from some sinister surveillance program. And they use this data in open partnership with Al Jazeera. And the company itself is not the main "Google" that is tied to search an ads, but was launched, at inception, as "global technology think-tank". So I see no relationship between what's discussed in these emails and hypothetical scenarios you're describing. ~~~ gbuk2013 Again from Assange's article[1]: \--- In fact, Cohen had moved to Google from the US State Department in 2010. He had been a fast-talking “Generation Y” ideas man at State under two US administrations, a courtier from the world of policy think tanks and institutes, poached in his early twenties. He became a senior advisor for Secretaries of State Rice and Clinton. At State, on the Policy Planning Staff, Cohen was soon christened “Condi’s party-starter,” channeling buzzwords from Silicon Valley into US policy circles and producing delightful rhetorical concoctions such as “Public Diplomacy 2.0.” On his Council on Foreign Relations adjunct staff page he listed his expertise as “terrorism; radicalization; impact of connection technologies on 21st century statecraft; Iran.” \--- Good or evil is quite subjective, but there is a pretty clear connection to at least one presidential candidate. That article is a seriously interesting (and long) read, assuming that it's all true of course - it is not interesting enough for me to start digging for proofs! ;) [1] [https://wikileaks.org/google-is-not-what-it- seems/](https://wikileaks.org/google-is-not-what-it-seems/) ------ wodenokoto What is so bad about that map? ~~~ cryoshon A multinational corporation has decided to map defections in a civil war in order to encourage people to defect from the government. An evil government, sure-- but it's a company weighing in on one side of a war. It isn't within their mandate. Manipulation here means that manipulation elsewhere is possible. ~~~ gcb0 well, even that would be OK of it was the company/owner desire. the crux here is that it was a government project, paid by your money, without your representation, and that it completely backfired. ------ Grue3 So Google did something good for once?	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
The Virtual DOM Is Slow. Meet the Memoized DOM (2018) - aabbcc1241 https://www.freecodecamp.org/news/the-virtual-dom-is-slow-meet-the-memoized-dom-bb19f546cc52 ====== aabbcc1241 So far, seen quite a handful of 'no-virtual-dom' declarative framework: surplus, solid.js, redom, imba	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Htop - better top - juvenn http://htop.sourceforge.net/ ====== pan69 This is definitely my favorite HTop screenshot: <http://htop.sourceforge.net/128.png> ~~~ aphyr Is that a NUMA box? ------ th I always have a screen session open with htop in one terminal. I take it for granted so much the lack of htop bothers me if I need to do any form of process management. ~~~ atsaloli htop and atop are my top two top tools <http://www.atoptool.nl/downloadatop.php> atop uses color to show when a subsystem goes over warn/critical threshold. it can be run in present time, or can be used to go back in time and "play back the tape" ------ stanley What are some other must-have applications you guys find useful? ~~~ apphacker ack ~~~ juvenn <http://betterthangrep.com/> ------ ComputerGuru It's the first thing I install on any server these days. I always have an SSH terminal open to htop to monitor my server at all times. ------ morphir htop is not a generic *nix tool. It depends on the Linux kernel (hard dependencies). ~~~ rimantas Macports version runs just fine on Snow leopard ~~~ morphir you are right. It turns out OSX support is here now. Do I have to be binary compatible to Linux to use it on FreeBSD? It's a great tool nonetheless. ~~~ Lammy Yes you do, and linprocfs must be mounted. ------ bcl atop is another useful alternative to top, shows i/o and network activity in addition to all the usual details. ------ d_c Htop is really useful, you can hide or show userland threads, switch to a tree view, etc. I use it daily. ------ wanderr Am I the only person here who hates htop? I just can't get used to it. The lack of labels and relying on color coding to convey information just obfuscates things for me. I still use top for that reason. ------ fuxx0r Iam using it so much. I like the graphs which gives me on a first look a faster overview about cpu/ram. If you got a SMP system every core got his one graph, which wasnt available in top. At least, its the best alternative to top, in my opinion! ------ wendroid Really, the best of breed ? TTY & ncurses, what a sad state of affairs. TTY is keeping you down : <http://kerneltrap.org/Linux/Removing_The_Big_Kernel_Lock2> Rob Pike was right in 1991 : "Not only is UNIX dead, it's starting to smell really bad." Plan9 is now older than Unix was when Plan9 was started. Operating System research is dead.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Confirmed: CMU Attacked Tor, Was Subpoenaed by Feds - danso https://motherboard.vice.com/read/carnegie-mellon-university-attacked-tor-was-subpoenaed-by-feds ====== pfg To me the most bizarre part of this story is the argument that this didn't constitute an unlawful search because there is no reasonable expectation of privacy for Tor users: > [...] it is the Court's understanding that in order for a prospective user > to use the Tor network they must disclose information, including their IP > addresses [...] such a submission is made despite the understanding > communicated by the Tor Project that the Tor network has vulnerabilities and > that users might not remain anonymous. Under these circumstances Tor users > clearly lack a reasonable expectation of privacy [...] ~~~ ikeboy They're giving over the information to a third party, which usually destroys any 4th amendment rights. The fact that the third party was actually three different parties who only got a piece (or six, when using hidden services) doesn't seem like it would change the law. If I split data into 6 pieces and handed it to 6 different people, the government can take those 6 pieces and put them together without violating my rights. I don't see why Tor would be any different. In fact, this particular vulnerability IIRC involved the researchers acting as both the exit node and the guard node, and finding a way to pass a message between the two so they'd notice when they're in the same circuit. That seems even better legally than my analogy above. They didn't need to take any data, the victims connected to them and gave them the info. ~~~ Lawtonfogle >They're giving over the information to a third party, which usually destroys any 4th amendment rights. Same reason that there is no need for a warrant to collect phone calls since you are handing data over to the phone companies to carry between you and the other party(ies). Also the same reason the government can shift through your mail, since the items are in the possession of a third party (you likely gave the items to the government itself). To me this makes as much sense as the argument that since a plane carrying people can fly over you, it is perfectly reasonable to put a blimp with an extremely high zoom camera on that spies on your home constantly, detecting not just visible light, but also infrared. Also, since when you talk things vibrate, and since it is possible to view those vibrations though a window, I'm actually broadcasting my speech to the public and thus don't have any expectation of privacy. ~~~ tannhauser23 These issues have actually been litigated in court. The broad consensus is that yes, the police can use a surveillance plane can take pictures of you without first obtaining a warrant (Florida v. Riley), but no, they can't use infrared camera to look inside your home without a warrant. (Kyllo v. United States) None of these cases are really analogous to the Tor case. Generally speaking, you have no reasonable expectation of privacy that information that you voluntarily provide to a third party will be kept confidential. This is why the police doesn't need a warrant to get your phone records or to obtain your IP address. You bring up mail, which is an interesting case. Conents of a sealed mail IS protected by the Fourth Amendment - it's just that the government usually relies on the "exigent circumstances" exception to the warrant requirement (basically, showing that there is probable cause to search the mail but that there is no time to obtain a warrant). The government can't just mass-open all sealed mails and look at their contents. ~~~ harry8 A helicopter with an infrared camera costs about $100. ~~~ deftnerd I believe he is referring to a thermal imaging camera, which can see heat sources. They're still somewhat an expensive specialty item. The police used to use them to look for people growing marijuana in their attics, but higher courts now say that would require a warrant. ~~~ nkurz He may be, but over the last few years some models have come out with much lower prices: [http://appleinsider.com/articles/14/11/23/review-flir-one- an...](http://appleinsider.com/articles/14/11/23/review-flir-one-and-seek- bring-thermal-imaging-to-iphone) I wouldn't be surprised if there are usable thermal imaging sensors out there for $100. ------ AdmiralAsshat From Tor's front page: _What is Tor? Tor is free software and an open network that helps you defend against traffic analysis, a form of network surveillance that threatens personal freedom and privacy, confidential business activities and relationships, and state security._ So, if the users of a service whose explicit mission statement is to provide anonymity and privacy apparently do not have "reasonable expectation of privacy," who does? Are they going to argue next that the private owner of a wifi-capable laptop has no expectation of privacy in their own home because the webcam could be conceivably hacked and remotely activated? ~~~ Lawtonfogle Since they didn't verify all code on the laptop, and since the EULA said that they don't actually own the code, only rights to use the code, then there is no reasonable expectation of privacy using the laptop. ~~~ thescriptkiddie So anyone using a computer with any proprietary software on it has no expectation of privacy? ~~~ stsp There is no clear line where total privacy starts and ends with technology currently available on the consumer market. Even if you don't use any proprietary software at all (which is very difficult to do for most people), your privacy could, in principle, still be compromised by the underlying hardware. ------ jackgavigan _> Jones claimed that IP addresses, and even those of Tor users, are public, and that Tor users lack a reasonable expectation of privacy._ This is an interesting judgment. Tor's purpose is to provide privacy. The fact that it may have vulnerabilities (as all software does) doesn't mean that a person using Tor doesn't expect that it will provide them with privacy. ~~~ DSMan195276 I think you're conflating two different points. Just because providing privacy is Tor's intended purpose doesn't mean it's reasonable to assume it provides privacy in the 4th amendment sense, when it still involves sending your data to Tor nodes. The argument is that public IP's are inherently not private because you have to give that information up to a separate entity to make any sort of communication. I'd wager that's the "vulnerability" they're referencing - That you don't know who is running the Tor nodes, and by extension can't assume your IP will stay private if you're freely giving away your IP address to them. By voluntarily giving that information up, there is no reason to expect that the Tor server you're connecting too will keep that information private anymore then a Facebook server would, even if we would like/hope that to be the case. The person who owns the Tor server is well within their rights to keep a log of every IP connected to their server. You also have no control over the node which makes the actual connection to the outside world - In which case that server can equally log anything it wants about that connection. If the same person controls both servers and puts two-and-two together and figures out you made a connection to website X, they haven't violated your 4th amendment rights because you voluntarily gave that information up by connecting to the Tor network without checking who you were giving that information too. Tor's intended goal is to provide privacy, but that doesn't mean it gives you a legal expectation to privacy, which I think is what they're getting at. The reality is that third-party entities that can do whatever they want with the data you voluntarily give them - The fact that they're Tor nodes doesn't change this. ~~~ pyre I somehow doubt that if I as an individual performed these actions the government would hold back from charging me under the CFAA. ~~~ fapjacks That's because you aren't backed by thousands of men in black uniforms with automatic weapons. And that's what it's _really_ about. ------ _archon_ Why isn't the first line of the Tor EULA or info page (and I wondered the same about Lavabit email) "This software/service is intended to provide its users a reasonable expectation of privacy under US and international law." Or some such. It's unreasonable to expect every user of a tech service to understand how it all works so they can know their level of legal protection. Phone taps require a warrant even if the phone user doesn't know how switching or tapping works. What's wrong with this idea? ~~~ wlesieutre (Not a lawyer but) I don't think it legally holds any water, once your data is out on the public network it's out on the public network. It's the electronic equivalent of a sticker on your car that says "This car is intended to provide its users a reasonable expectation of privacy under US and international law." ~~~ ViViDboarder When I make a phone call it routes through a public network. Tapping a phone is illegal due to my expectation that the call is private. I dunno. I've seen some good arguments either way here, and I'm also not a lawyer. ------ wsothr So the information was obtained by subpoena from a university research program that is federally funded. Thinking back to the HeartBleed incident, does this set a precedent for the government to subpoena information related to private keys that may have been exposed due to a software vulnerability and recorded as part of a federally funded university security research lab investigation into said vulnerability? Given that HeartBleed was so public, the likelihood of private keys and certificates not being revoked is pretty low. But what about the next major software vulnerability that doesn't have the same publicity? Or extrapolating even further, what about DNA that may be collected and kept by entities receiving federal funding. Say healthcare funding? Does that entitle the government to access? ------ chinathrow If you work in research like that - how can you sleep at night? This is a real question - I haven't been able to ask someone directly involved in unmasking users like that. ~~~ nhf From the perspective of a current CMU student: the Software Engineering Institute (SEI) here is the responsible party here. Note that they are separate from the main ("academic") school of CS. They are a federally-funded research and development center, essentially a computing-focused contractor and consultant for the DoD (see more here: [http://www.sei.cmu.edu/about/organization/workingwithanFFRDC...](http://www.sei.cmu.edu/about/organization/workingwithanFFRDC.cfm)). So, in short, the people at the SEI sleep as well as the people at Raytheon or Lockheed Martin that build the drones, or the folks at Alcatel-Lucent who helped the NSA way back, or maybe even the guys way back at Los Alamos. It's not like some grad students or CS professor got strong-armed into doing this. It's literally their job to do this kind of work for the DoD and other government offices. While the ethics of this line of work are certainly up for debate, they knew exactly what they were getting into. ------ pasbesoin If you don't own the physical layer, sooner or later you're screwed. (My comment is not meant to reflect on the merits or dismerits of the particular use in question. It's a general statement.) ------ ianremsen One minor thing: consider showing motherboard.vice.com as a separate domain? ------ maesho Was the vulnerability made public? Was it patched? ~~~ pfg It's covered in this blog post[1]. Some mitigations are in place now. [1]: [https://blog.torproject.org/blog/tor-security-advisory- relay...](https://blog.torproject.org/blog/tor-security-advisory-relay-early- traffic-confirmation-attack/) ------ majke I must admit the description is pretty opaque for me. Can someone translate this to simple english? What "subpoena" is in this context? What most likely actually happened? ------ smokeyj I'm less interested in the courts interpretation of reasonable than why my personal liberty depends on such a subjective term. If the bill of rights is entirely subjective, it might as well say "We the people have rights.. and stuff. Y'know man?". Note to the next framers of a constitutional republic. Include some notion of objective unit and functional tests. ~~~ Laaw You don't "have" any personal liberties. You are not born with rights, you are gifted them by a benevolent society. That society can easily lose its benevolence, and take your rights away, and there is absolutely nothing you'd be able to do about it. You might hold a differing view, but the fact is, reality works as I've described. Delude yourself all you want, but your rights _do_ hinge on the imperfect and subjective manner in which your benevolent rulers have granted them to you. They _have not_ granted you absolute rights, specifically laid out, but they _have_ done better than, "rights.. and stuff." ~~~ diskcat >You are not born with rights This argument is really semantic. The line always devolve to the tautological "the only rules of the universe are physical rules" ~~~ Laaw That's not tautological at all. Also, it's not really true. There are plenty of rules. What I'm saying is the only "unalienable" rules are the laws of the physical universe. Every other rule is a construct of society and people, and as such, is not guaranteed in the way as stated by the previous commenter. It's just something I believe is worth keeping in mind when talking about your "right to privacy", specifically. There are many prominent public figures who actually don't believe you have that right at all, and when we remember that rights (as we're referring to them) are granted only by the grace of the state, if the members of the state don't believe you have a right, then you simply don't. The argument here should be more about whether or not it's in the state's best interest to grant the right to privacy to its citizens, and I think there's a pretty strong argument in favor of that, but simply stating "I have a right!" doesn't illuminate that argument very much.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Announcing GitHub Issues for iPhone - holman https://github.com/blog/904-announcing-github-issues-for-iphone ====== flocial These Mac/iOS apps are great but making their site mobile compatible would benefit more people immediately IMHO. ------ cmelbye Yikes, that completely custom, non-standard UI is pretty jarring for me. ~~~ jechen I thought it's quite a fresh breath of air from all the other apps. Conventions be damned! ~~~ cmelbye Don't get me wrong, I love a custom UI in an iPhone app when it's done right. See: TweetBot. Gorgeous, 100% custom UI, and they preserved button sizes, labels, behavior, etc that the user is used to in an iPhone app. ------ socratic Do people use GitHub Issues? Is there something that it's best at compared to the alternatives? ~~~ michaelbuckbee If you're evaluating it against a full blown bug/requirements tracking system like JIRA, Fogbugz or similar it is fairly lacking. If you want a dead simple, integrated, free (with your github subscription) bug tracking system that lets you close issues via git commit messages it is just what is called for. ------ idigit When I click on the "download it today" button, it forwards me to a not found page in the app store. :( ~~~ watmough Yes, same experience here, but doing a search popped it right up. This should be a direct link to it. [http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/github- issues/id453833494?mt=...](http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/github- issues/id453833494?mt=8)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
"Joel Spolksy is wrong about my work" - Kent Beck - bjclark http://www.threeriversinstitute.org/blog/?p=29 ====== raganwald A note to all the people arguing about whether TDD is a good idea or not: You are arguing about the colour of the bikeshed. The problem with Joel and Jeff's podcast isn't that they disagree with TDD. If you poll 100 random smart people on the subject, you will get a continuum of answers. The problem is that they then made a sweeping generalization about Kent Beck and Robert Martin's experience and competence based on their disagreement. The old, "If you don't develop software exactly as I do, you are an idiot" line. I think Kent is right not to argue the fine points of TDD, because that isn't the issue. The issue is that his competence and experience were attacked on the basis of advocating TDD, and his response is to suggest that J&J are unaware of his experience. If someone wants to suggest that Kent is a very experienced guy but they don't think TDD is a good idea for their project, I'm sure Kent is fine with their stance on the matter. ------ dasil003 It sucks to have your life's work strawmanned like this by pop programmer podcast banter. I hope Joel addresses it professionally. XP/Agile/TDD (like any movement) is filled with rabid fanboys who misapply the principles and try to ram them down everyone's throat, but it's rarely the case that the inventors of popular methodologies are filled with the same blind zeal. After all, their ideas were originally informed by first-hand experience. ~~~ andreyf Never heard of this guy before, but considering that he just wrote 3 paragraphs eloquently saying "Joel is an idiot" without saying anything about how they disagree makes me think quite little of him. Ad hominem attacks are rhetoric - meant to influence, not inform. See How to Disagree, by PG: <http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html> ~~~ dasil003 Joel dragged him into this by name. Clearly he thinks Joel is attributing ideas to him that he doesn't hold. Therefore it's not a matter of disagreement --he may well fully agree with Joel's thesis--it's the demonization of his work by misrepresentation. In that light his response seems measured and appropriate. ~~~ Angostura It may be measured, but it's not helpful. Let's assume that Joel is neither stupid nor malicious. Therefore he is having problems that presumably others are having. In this case it is useful to actually set out the nature of Joel's error, rather than simply saying "Joel is a dolt". Non-malicious criticism can often be helpful in letting you explore _why_ people misunderstand you. Of course my assumptions could be wrong - he could believe that Joel is being malicious. ~~~ DougBTX He could also believe exactly what he says, that Spolsky has a "lack of knowledge of what I do and what I say". FWIW, I think this is the post being responded to: <http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2009/01/31.html> ------ lacker Here's a transcript of the podcast I believe Kent is referring to. Judge for yourself whether Joel "makes comments that make clear his lack of knowledge". <http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2009/01/31.html> I'd like to see Kent respond to Joel's specific points. E.g: The real problem with unit tests as I've discovered is that the type of changes that you tend to make as code evolves tend to break a constant percentage of your unit tests.... So the end result is that, as your project gets bigger and bigger, if you really have a lot of unit tests, the amount of investment you'll have to make in maintaining those unit tests, keeping them up-to-date and keeping them passing, starts to become disproportional to the amount of benefit that you get out of them. ~~~ paul I think I agree with everything Joel said in that post. These crazy rules people come up with for "proper object oriented" programming remind me of extreme religious rituals. You have to observe all these stupid little rules or else your code will become impure you and will spend an eternity in code maintenance hell. I'll make a somewhat heretical claim even: Unit test are 20% useful engineering, and 80% fad. They are great for tricky code with well defined behavior (like a parser), but wasteful for most code. ~~~ dnene I have the deepest respect for you and your writings, but exactly how much maximum code coverage have you achieved and sustained for at least a month using automated unit tests ? Just wondering how long you've visited the region you're writing a travel review about. Unit tests are about confidence in the software. Automation is the mechanism for sustained confidence. Engineering (and / or fad as you put it) is a vehicle to get there. ~~~ axod You can have 100% code coverage, and still not be testing anything. Unless you're testing thoroughly the right parts, they're a false sense of security. ~~~ dnene I agree with that. Its just an (imperfect) proxy measure of the depth / extent of unit testing. Asking how much code coverage is likely to give a better reflection of the effort behind unit testing rather than just a - "have you done unit testing". ------ jwr I found Joel Spolsky's opinions to be all over the spectrum. Sometimes he posts well-researched pieces with intriguing conclusions. Sometimes he writes uninformed rants, which show his lack of understanding of the subject matter. This is not a problem if you carefully apply your own measure to whatever he writes. ~~~ Hast I'd say that his ideas on management are interesting and informed. But when he starts talking development or technology he quickly becomes uninformed and poorly researched. The discussion they had a number of episodes ago regarding MVC "patterns" made it clear that they had no fucking clue what they were talking about. And when Wikipedia didn't give a fast answer they began guestimating instead. ------ pkaler What has Kent Beck shipped? Follow the advice of people that have shipped code. That is what I took from the Stack Overflow podcast. Seriously, what has Kent Beck shipped? The Chrysler Compensation program is always brought up. But, I understand that the project was cancelled. I'm not trying to troll here. I would have greater confidence in Kent Beck's argument if I knew what he was actually capable of shipping. ~~~ projectileboy JUnit, for one thing. ~~~ nostrademons Eclipse as well. ~~~ hello_moto Really? <http://wiki.eclipse.org/FAQ_Where_did_Eclipse_come_from%3F> ------ hoyhoy Kent Beck's system is awesome if you want to subjugate a thousand programmers working at a bank. In some sense, it is a very successful way of forcing stupid people to build mediocre products under threat of economic violence. ------ huhtenberg To quote from <http://www.yafla.com/dforbes/Coding_Horror_Strikes_Again>: _Coding Horror is an entertaining, sometimes even educational blog. Be careful diving in headfirst, though, as the technical depth is generally so shallow you'll be hitting the bottom before you've even broken through the surface tension._ Based on what I have (managed to) read at CH I find this description to be fairly accurate. ~~~ unalone That's Jeff Atwood, not Joel Spolsky. Unless I'm mistaken about something. ------ hello_moto It's quite interesting to see two kinds of technical guys arguing against each other. On one side, we have the product guy, on the other, we've got the consulting guy. You've got Joel, Jeff, Paul Bucheit on the product side saying that "Yes, automated testing and some of the OOP principles are great, but let's not go as far as Uncle Bob" Check out the SOLID principles. Some of the principles are alright, but when Uncle Bob explained that Rectangle class thing, I don't know what to say other than I just changed my mind leaning toward not to buy his "Clean Code" book. On the other side, you've got Kent Beck, GoF, Uncle Bob, Martin Fowler, etc. (and possibly Gilles Bowkett). They're what you would consider "war-proven": they've done numerous "IT projects", leading a team of corporate developers, probably making a website for clients, and etc. I don't mean to be rude (and perhaps this is an overgeneralisation), but I haven't heard any software product made by the consulting group. Yes, they wrote code, but the code is based on requirements given by some clients that: 1) Change the requirements frequently 2) Keep cutting costs 3) Ask for more 4) Cut more time There's a huge different between writing code for commercial software that you steer versus writing code driven by someone else who knows almost nothing about software development but knows a lot how to save money. Would you TDD-ed your UI code? If you wrote API, yes, I can understand you do heavy unit-tests. A side note for having your own unit-test framework: 1) Developers shouldn't write them 2) Developers should provide minimal to enough unit-tests 3) Go hire your own test team to do the rest Developers aren't meant to be full-time testers. Testers aren't mean to be a full-time developers. What I'd like to see is a team like this: 1) Joel becomes the product manager 2) Paul Bucheit becomes the software architect 3) Jeff, Kent Beck and Martin Fowler do the coding 4) Robert Martin and those infested TDD people can build a full-blown suite of unit-test frameworks, acceptance test and etc. Microsoft has a category for the people in (4), it is "SDET". For those of you who think developers must write a comprehensive TDD (not just a minimum or "just to pass"), here's a challenge to you: why don't you try and be SDET. You'll see some of the serious full-blown test code, black-box, UI test code, UI automation and a serious CI process. I'm sure the experience will make your TDD and unit-test code look pale in comparison. Google seems going to that (MS) direction slowly. ------ jwb119 classy response from kent beck ~~~ d0mine Does "classy" mean a rant with no or little content and the only remarkable thing about it is a famous author? ~~~ demallien I'm thinking there may have been just a pinch of sarcasm behind the choice of the word 'classy'... ------ darkhorse I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Spolsky's significant bias in this argument: His company makes bug tracking software! Of COURSE he wants to cast unit testing in a bad light - done properly, it could put him out of business. ~~~ discojesus I sincerely doubt anyone who runs a company that makes bug-tracking software loses any sleep about software bugs being eliminated forever. Regardless of what happens in the software industry, to-do lists ain't going away any time soon. ------ dangrover Epic rebuttal fail. ------ illume Guru fight! Which one is right? Neither! ------ andreyf What a well articulated ad hominem flame! So much confidence, and yet, no content. Now that is art! _sigh_ <http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html>	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
CSS text-shadow Fun: Realtime Lighting Demo - apu http://www.zachstronaut.com/posts/2009/06/22/css-text-shadow-lighting-demo.html ====== quizbiz a wonderful hack.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Airpods – a Speculative Teardown - KuiN https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/airpods-speculative-teardown-nick-hunn ====== adysan This is an amazing post. Cant wait to see a followup when these things start shipping.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Show HN: Vocab Watch – A simple vocabulary builder to improve your vocabulary - manibatra https://itunes.apple.com/app/vocab-watch/id1393813585?mt=8 ====== manibatra I love reading and would come across words that I did not know the meaning of. Hence, I built this simple app for iPhone and Apple Watch to help me improve my vocabulary. My requirements were an app that notifies me and allows me to create sentences using the words I want to learn.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Raw SQL in a Rails project - yeasayer http://gmile.me/raw-sql-in-a-rails-project/ ====== jjgreen If you're thinking of doing this, have a look at [https://github.com/sufleR/sql_query](https://github.com/sufleR/sql_query)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Blameless post-mortems and a just culture (2012) - chipperyman573 https://codeascraft.com/2012/05/22/blameless-postmortems/ ====== leggomylibro I once worked somewhere that did blameless technical postmortems very well. Whenever something broke, we kept asking questions until we had uncovered what went wrong, and we constantly reminded each other that our failings were in the process, not the people. It worked great, and we ended up with much more robust systems than most other places I'd worked. Sadly, they didn't apply the same ideals to social faux pas. We had an older gentleman working for us who, on hearing a younger member of the team propose an idea, said: "okay, I'll play the straight man: why won't this cause [...]" In the poor guy's generation, "straight man" was a stand-up comedy term for the person who acts deadpan and surprised while their partner makes with the comedy. But after explaining his actions and the expectations/assumptions behind them, he was reprimanded, ostracized in the office, and left before long. Even though I liked working on the technical systems at that job, I felt isolated and uncomfortable speaking with my peers after that. I've never been good with people, and what if I made a mistake? That sort of terror is what non-technical folks feel when you ask them to start taking on new responsibilities, and it's why these blameless systems are so important. ~~~ Ididntdothis I often hear about this stuff but I have never seen it myself. Do people really ostracize others for saying a sentence they don’t like? I can see it if somebody constantly says stupid or offensive things but not for a few mistakes (are they even mistakes?). ~~~ SpicyLemonZest I can't vouch for ostracism specifically, but we just had someone at our company add a Slack bot to correct anyone who says the word "guys", and let me tell you I did not feel like it would be appropriate to complain. ~~~ frank086 With everyone remote HR has sadly discovered a sudden love of policing slack. I saw another engineer get hit for talking about triggering a job since "using triggering improperly downplays the trauma of survivors". Not sure what that means other than it is time to set the LinkedIn status to looking. ~~~ Ididntdothis "I saw another engineer get hit for talking about triggering a job since "using triggering improperly downplays the trauma of survivors". " This is nuts. Where is this? Silicon Valley? ------ kqr Only tangentially related but I have to get it out of my system anyway: I watched the latest season of the F1 documentary on Netflix, and what stood out beyond anything else to me was that every team pitted their own drivers against each other, had a "you win or you lose" mentality, screamed at people for messing up, and so on. All teams except one. One team iterated how they "win as a team and make mistakes as a team", mistakes are an opportunity to learn, and so on. One team showed pretty clearly how they had a good culture surrounding failures. I'm not at all surprised that this one team is the team that has consistently won the last 6 years in a row. Why aren't more teams copying this? Why is this one team not more secretive about their recipe to success? ~~~ aahortwwy > Why is this one team not more secretive about their recipe to success? It's not a secret. Many other organizations (not in F1, by your description) operate this way. It's well understood, but... > Why aren't more teams copying this? ... everyone on the team needs to buy in to this approach. One selfish team member can slowly ruin the whole thing. The uncomfortable reality of these cultures is that when someone in the culture is not truly committed, or is putting their self-interest ahead of the team, they need to be removed. A lot of leaders are not strong enough to recognize that and take action. ~~~ bob33212 It is similar to why organizations don't hire 10x engineers only. It is difficult, a lot of work and hiring just one bad manager could cause the 10x engineers to leave or become unproductive. It is far easier to treat engineers like cogs and hire people that check the right boxes and throw them into a standard scrum process. ------ quartz I'm a cofounder at Kintaba ([https://kintaba.com](https://kintaba.com)) where we spend a lot of time with companies that are implementing postmortems as part of their larger incident management process and it has been fascinating to see how varied the adoption of the practice is even in SV despite the value being well accepted for over a decade in tech (longer in other research circles). I often recommend anyone who is interested in the topic to check out Sidney Dekker's Field Guide to Understanding Human Error [1]. It's a very approachable read and goes into great detail about the underlying theories of safety research that support the value of blame-free cultures and postmortems and addresses common counter-arguments, particularly around the idea that lack of blame = lack of accountability. Also worth checking out the (free) google SRE Book chapters on Incident Management [2] and Postmortem Culture [3]. [1] [https://www.amazon.com/Field-Guide-Understanding-Human- Error...](https://www.amazon.com/Field-Guide-Understanding-Human- Error/dp/1472439058/) [2] [https://landing.google.com/sre/sre-book/chapters/managing- in...](https://landing.google.com/sre/sre-book/chapters/managing-incidents/) [3] [https://landing.google.com/sre/sre- book/chapters/postmortem-...](https://landing.google.com/sre/sre- book/chapters/postmortem-culture/) ------ xrd I love blameless postmortems. And, it isn't really whether the team or the team lead decides to do a blameless postmortem. It's whether the company values looking at things this way. And, those values change over time, and shift when the times are good or bad (financially). I would really love to read about a blameless postmortem that happened in a dying company where everyone was backstabbing each other. Now, that would be a good story! In fairness, this story does convey that. The "second story" part is great. I do wish there was a little more about how management came around to seeing it, how they rectified bonuses and pay and PIPs. There is an untold journey here. ~~~ kqr I have been recommended the book "Turning the Ship Around" for an account of how to grow a new good culture in a decisively bad one. It's probably not an exact recipe for being able to hold blameless postmortems, but I suspect it could contain some valuable information. If anyone knows how well it applies to this situation, please do tell me! ~~~ asplake TBH I’m not sure of its relevance to postmortems specifically but I’d highly recommend the book. Turn the Ship Around, Marquet. Great audiobook too. ------ Mikhail_Edoshin There's a Youtube talk [Martial Arts Mind][1] by Peter Ralston about a change he underwent when he stopped seeing the opponent as an adversary. It's a very deep subject. Easy to get wrong too :) [1]: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wi7ph8GrRDk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wi7ph8GrRDk) ------ codesections > We must strive to understand that accidents don’t happen because people > gamble and lose. The problem is that _some_ accidents do happen because people gamble and lose – or rather, because people cut corners is ways that _probably_ won't matter but sometimes really, really do. The best approach needs to balance both causes of error. I agree that most organizations tend to err too far in the "blame someone" direction – but that doesn't mean that it's impossible to err by going too far in the other direction. ~~~ hoorayimhelping As I understand it the key to the blameless and just culture is to keep going to the bottom of it: "You cut corners. You were incentivized to cut corners. Why? Why do those incentives exist? What can we do to remove those incentives in the future?" The core of the philosophy is assuming people come to work to do a good job, and when they don't do a good job, there are reasonable explanations that involve people making locally rational decisions. The goal is to make the system stable in a way that making locally rational decisions translates to globally good decisions. ~~~ peteradio And what happens when the finger starts pointing back towards business imposing terrible incentives? ~~~ jonfw If you find a business incentive as a root cause, you blamelessly discuss ways you can change that incentive. ~~~ jiveturkey LOL! has this ever, ever happened? ~~~ jonfw Absolutely- happens all the time in organizations with good management :) ~~~ peteradio Hmm, something very circular seem to be happening in your argument, can't quite put my finger on it. ------ notyourday Blameless postmortems should come with the equal pay ( as in equal dollar amount, equal value of equity, and equal value of other perks) for everyone in the tech organization. If it does not, then it is a propaganda tool embraced by people who extract more value from the people below them. ~~~ diegoperini I don't understand the argument. (I didn't vote on your comment) ~~~ notyourday If it accepted that is not a person or persons whose mistakes create problems requiring postmortems meaning it was the collective that made mistakes then it should also be accepted that it is never a person or persons whose accomplishments propelled the company forward rather it is the collective. So everyone in the collective should get paid the amount of money for equal contributions to ups and downs, should not they? ~~~ diegoperini On a scale from "individual" to "collective", both blame and success can be attributed to either extreme (or middle) on a case by case basis. I don't believe it can be possible to claim a universal generalization for all cases. ~~~ notyourday Is there a single case where a company which practices blameless downside practices a collective upside? ~~~ diegoperini It is rare (so sad) but yes, there is. I work in such a company and I am not the employer. ~~~ notyourday I would happily accept the blameless postmortems in such a company. ~~~ diegoperini Yes. But it's a dynamic relationship and radical equity is still not justified even here. Equity and worth is not a function of solely participation. It's a mixture of participation, loyalty, honesty, competence, sacrifice, seniority and priorities in life. You can always name more variables and it will always put the radical argument in a greyer zone. Edit: I use the word "radical" as in outstanding, outside of the box, noticeably different. It isn't meant as a derogatory term. ~~~ notyourday > But it's a dynamic relationship and radical equity is still not justified > even here. Equity and worth is not a function of solely participation. It is a function solely of contribution in whatever way one contributes be that by being the smartest person in a room who needs only one minute to do what it takes others three months, or by being people who labor for three months so the smartest person in a room can do something else. Since the negative contribution is evenly split among everyone ( blameless ) so should be the positive contribution. ~~~ diegoperini What you define is not contribution, it's participation. Killing meritocracy entirely also kills the incentive to improve oneself. Distributing equity non- equally is just one of those dials which if you adjust slightly, you reward people who are able to self improve more. Do it too much, you alienate your team (as you pointed out). Do it never, you reward the lazy by not rewarding the hardworking. I think you are on the right track with your intentions but having a balanced approach is the key and choosing one extreme over the other is not the path forward here. This has been a fun debate but I believe what I think about the topic can be summarized as this: Healthy competition without the toxicity is possible in the workplace. It is just hard and needs careful attention to detail. If you ask how much, that's probably the subject of ideology. When ideologies battle, it's either bloody and both sides lose or it's small wins and loses achieved by mutual compromise. No matter where the balance is met, it must progress with dialogue.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Google Suspends Launch Google+ Account - But Not Other Media - AndrewWarner http://launch.is/blog/google-suspends-launch-google-account-but-not-profiles-of-ot.html ====== lukesandberg Um... so they violated the terms of service and got their account suspended... boo hoo. The fact that other media plus pages haven't been shut down yet is just a matter of the profiles being reported. The profiles are monitored and flagged by the users.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Do Elite Colleges Discriminate Against Asians? - guimarin http://blog.priceonomics.com/post/48794283011/do-elite-colleges-discriminate-against-asians ====== martythemaniak Well... They probably do, I'd be surprised if they didn't. But let's not pretend that Ivy League school operate on anything resembling merit. The reason you want to go to those schools is not their top-notch academics, which you can get that in many other places, but as a shortcut to the old-boys networks. Unfortunately those old-boys networks don't serve as patrons out of the goodness of their hearts, so they require that many of their otherwise unworthy offspring to get admitted. It's a tough nut to crack. If Ivy Leagues started admitting based solely on merit, they'd lose much of what makes them desirable, hence they need to add vague criteria so admissions personnel can safely discard and let in the right people. Basically, Harvard is Harvard not because the exams are tough, but because the scions of the rich and powerful go to Harvard. So how can you have both the scions of the rich and powerful go there AND admit people based on merit? ~~~ niggler "The reason you want to go to those schools is not their top-notch academics" I assume you didn't go to an Ivy League school. Most of the people who are there by academic merit genuinely are at the top of their academic year/class. If you can handle it, you can take math classes with IMO medalists, chemistry classes with IChO medalists, etc. And this holds true for most departments. ~~~ slg The hardest part of getting an Ivy League education is getting into an Ivy League school. The coursework at those schools isn't really much harder than their less prestigious counterparts. ~~~ niggler At the lower levels, sure. But once you start getting into more specialized fields, there are generally more courses and more professors compared to less prestigious counterparts. It's not that there aren't sharp people at less prestigious schools, but that there are generally more at more prestigious schools. ~~~ mjn In CS, at least, I haven't seen that. The Yale CS department, for example, has some very smart people, but is not that large, and the specialties concentrate in certain areas. As far as I can tell, the undergraduate education there is roughly on par with the quite small and non-Ivy school I attended (<http://www.hmc.edu>). Possibly even somewhat lower standards due to undergraduate education there being a lower-priority focus for their faculty (their tenure cases are evaluated based primarily on graduate supervision and research, not teaching), and more grade inflation meaning that it's virtually impossible to fail. edit: Though to be clear I'm not really claiming "Yale is worse than [X]", just that past a certain level it depends more on what you care about. Do you care about small class sizes? About the opportunity to engage in undergraduate research? About big projects happening in your department? Do you care about AI, compilers, graphics, or theory? About practice-oriented programming or software engineering? Depending on your preferences there are more like 50 schools that will provide a top-notch education, not 8. ~~~ spamizbad Harvey Mudd will give you a first-rate CS education, so I'm not surprised by your experience. It shouldn't be surprising that its on par with Ivy schools. I bet you'd get something similar from CMU or MIT too. (Disclaimer: Not an alumni of any of these schools, but know and have worked with many people who attended them) ------ kyro A former admissions officer of a good medical school in California once told me that the way it works is that they separate applicants based on ethnicity, and they then look at the top 5% of each stack. His words were "so if you're Asian with a 3.9gpa, good luck, you're a dime a dozen. But if you're an African American with a 3.4gpa, you're getting in." On top of that, many who share my ethnicity -- a minority in even our native country -- put down African American or, what's now the trendy thing to do, Underrepresented Minority, because they know it gives them a huge edge over the competition. I don't fault them for it. The whole application process is one big game and they're learning how to play it to their advantage. ~~~ smoyer When my eldest daughter had her visit at Princeton, it was pretty obvious that there was no cap at 5% Asian. On the other hand, why should they? My youngest daughter was adopted from Korea, but our family heritage is almost entirely Swiss-German ... She's been part of our family since she was 11 months old, and she loves the ethnic German foods we eat (mostly Pennsylvania- Dutch type cooking), but is also fond of many Korean dishes (such as Bulgogi). What should an admissions office consider her ethnicity? A twist on the classic nature versus nurture conversation. ~~~ argonaut kyro did not claim there was a 5% cap on the proportion of Asians at schools. He claimed that the admissions pool was drawn out of the top 5% of each ethnic bracket. Those are two different things. ~~~ smoyer Thanks for pointing that out ... I missed it as I read the article. In that case, I can tell you that the pool of WASP kids (like my daughter) at Princeton consisted of those who had "almost perfect" SAT scores, documented extra-curricular activities, proof of social awareness (best shown by volunteer work with disadvantaged populations) and good interview skills. I'd say it's pretty hard to get into that population as well. ~~~ beachstartup > WASP kids (like my daughter) white nope anglo saxon nope, and not even if she were your biological daughter. protestant ... maybe. is she religious? ~~~ smoyer I was referring to my biological daughter. ------ jellyksong This issue is pretty close to my heart because I'm a high school senior this year. I'm also Asian, play an instrument, have perfect SAT scores, and applied for a STEM major (well, half STEM). I was also rejected/waitlisted from every one of my top choices. To be honest, I'm not really sure now to respond to this article. From the point of view of a student applying to college, these "discriminations" exist pretty universally, and not just to Asians. The notion that race, gender, wealth, etc play a role in college decisions is very widespread among my classmates and peers at other schools. I don't view it as particularly bad, though, even if these colleges will never publicly admit such a thing. College is not a completely merit based system. I think that we all like to believe that it is, but colleges also have duties outside of admitting the best students. They have to keep their alumni happy, somehow obtain outside funding, keep its population diverse enough (this is ambiguous and controversial, but I think it's a legitimate concern). Most importantly, a college also has the duty to improve society, and that's where a system like Affirmative Action comes into play. It's not perfect, but it does allow for a great deal of social mobility where society would otherwise resemble something like plutocracy. After all these considerations, there's only a fraction of each year's class that they have for purely "merit" based acceptances. And at the level that these elite colleges are at, it's almost impossible to differentiate between candidates. So this small group of accepted students is essentially random (or I like to tell myself). There was a quote by a Yale admissions officer who lamented that he could've filled 3 identical classes with students on the waitlist. Perhaps I'm naive, but I think that one of the benefits of our society, especially in the entrepreneurial community, is that success is ultimately the result of hard work and talent. College is not the end-all and certainly not the determinant of your future. ~~~ chubot Man you sound like me 15 years ago :) I am Chinese American, got almost perfect SAT scores, top of my class, etc. I got rejected from all the schools Asian parents like (Harvard, MIT, I think Yale, etc.) I ended up going to Cornell (I think my other choices were UPenn and CMU). Anyway, it ended up great. There were tons of things that interested me in school; I got very high grades but didn't concentrate on them. I played in bands and partied. I developed a reputation for being the guy who stayed out all night and still got 100 on all the tests people were cramming for. There is freedom in not trying to compete with others. Like everyone, I had some rough years after college, but with a decade of hindsight it all turned out great. I also did better on the Asian parent metric of making more money than peers who went to Harvard, etc. I think it was mainly by valuing honest work (i.e. problems people actually have) rather than working on things that are supposed to be hard or prestigious. If you follow the advice of a lot of Asian parents, you'll end up working hard and not smart. It sounds like you have a great head on your shoulders, and a great outlook on the situation, so good luck to you! ~~~ pwang Cornell is a great school. There are certainly easy majors and easy courses available, but I was able to find courses that would kick my ass, and made lifelong friends with people who were hard working and incredibly bright. Getting into college is only the starting point; the key is to find a place where you have room to grow and that will challenge you, and where there is an overall good work ethic. Those are the things that will really determine your trajectory later in life. ~~~ chubot Yeah, I also meant to say that one of the things I appreciated most about Cornell is that, unlike almost all prestigious schools, it is outside the normal "east coast metro area" mentality (i.e. Boston - NY - DC). Alan Kay (who I previously bashed here) has said "perspective is worth 80 IQ points" and that definitely applies to your education. ------ danielna While it is a very easy "excuse" to hide behind, I believe in holistic admissions qualifications. I think charts of SAT score x race x admissions are as good of a metric of assessing a potential student as college GPA are of assessing a potential employee. To some degree there's a baseline expectation for the practical purposes of filtering (with lots of outliers for various reasons), but at the end of the day it doesn't say much about how intelligent or capable someone really is. Intelligence and capability can't be reduced to a test-taking skill. I am Asian-American and I went to an ivy league university. I think (hope) that essays hold particular importance for admission to the most competitive schools because academically there's very little variability between most serious applicants. Everyone was the valedictorian, everyone had a 4.0+, everyone had 1500+ on the SAT (out of 1600). Everyone played an instrument, everyone was in every honor society, everyone performed hours of community service. When you get that far as an applicant you know how to play the academics "game." So in the midst of a lot of redundancy -- "“Another piano playing, hard working kid, with perfect SAT scores" -- you have to stand out for other reasons. Like the passions that will ultimately lead to a student body that enriches itself rather than one where everyone is constantly holed up in their room studying non-stop for the next exam. ~~~ tobylane Asian-born student life sounds like it involves a lot of after school classes, and group cramming sessions. Maybe this leaves less time for community service and class representative. If Asians do less of this they'd not be chosen compared to all the other 'equally' 'perfect' applicants. ~~~ jlgreco The question I think is how we are weighting extra-curriculars. How does piano compare to... say.. windsurfing? I'd put both about on the same level as far as merit goes (one taxes the mind and dexterity, the other taxes the body and dexterity, both are fairly out of reach for the underprivileged). If the "holistic admission" thing is being used to disqualify Asian candidates I would expect that two students with equal grades would be disadvantaged if they played piano rather than windsurfed. From my anecdotal experience, I find this very plausible. (I'm a white guy who had _extraordinarily_ poor grades in highschool yet was accepted to the school of my choice. My Asian peers almost universally far outclassed me in academic skill _(proper student discipline in general)_ ; if you told me that I was accepted because I was on the swim team instead of another student with better grades who played the piano (both forms of self-improvement, not community service), I would not be surprised. Very disappointed, but not surprised.) ~~~ Torgo What about diversity of extra-curriculars? I don't know how it breaks down, but maybe they felt they had enough Asians (or anybody) who play the piano. Maybe you got in because they didn't have that many people who swam as an extra-curricular. ~~~ jlgreco As far as I am concerned, a sport is a sport. I primarily swam, but I did some track as well, and did and continue to do casual weightlifting. They work different muscle groups but they are all fundamentally the same (all have very low leadership/teamwork opportunities, all require a decent amount of drive and dedication, etc. These are all fundamentally "selfish" sports; most participants will spend most of their time competing against themselves). The other class of sports, the "team sports", are fundamentally different of course but also essentially all the same. So do universities _honestly_ think they have too many classical musicians, but not enough casual athletes? I don't think so. That seems incredibly implausible. I don't think they are thinking anything at all along the lines of _"we better introduce some athletic viewpoints into our student body, lest all the musicians dominate discussion."_ I think they are arbitrarily classifying hobbies as "well rounded" or "square" to allow themselves to shape their student body demographics to their liking. ------ tokenadult Some basic facts about college admission in the United States: 1) Most colleges admit large numbers of students who are officially reported as "race/ethnicity unknown." (The graphic in the submitted article, showing race/ethnicity questions from a college application, is dishonest by omitting the part on the application that says that whole section is optional, as it must be by federal regulation.) 2) The definition of "race" categories in current United States regulations is arbitrary, acknowledged by the Census Bureau to be unscientific, does not match categories used in any other country, and has changed several times in my lifetime. 3) "Jewish" has never been an officially regarded category in the United States for tracking data on the issue of college admission, but Jews once faced considerable barriers getting into many colleges. 4) The subset of United States high school students who are college-ready by what courses they have completed during high school has a much different "race" composition from the general United States population. Several of the replies in this interesting thread speculate about details of the practice of colleges in the United States, so I will refer here to the definitive FAQ about "race" in United States college admission, [http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/admissions-hindsight- les...](http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/admissions-hindsight-lessons- learned/1366406-race-college-admission-faq-discussion-10-a.html) so that those of you who like to look up reliable sources and check facts are able to do that about this contentious issue. The FAQ will have to be revised, of course, after the Supreme Court issues its opinion in a pending case (cited in the FAQ). Full references to the facts listed above can be found in the FAQ. ------ stared A nice, if lengthy, article on that topic: [http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-myth- of-...](http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-myth-of-american- meritocracy/) TL;DR Asians are "the new Jews" and are discriminated (often implicitly) - for example they ace at high-school STEM competitions, yet they don't make that many undergrads as they should (with a notable exception of Caltech). ~~~ mikebike For a critique of Unz's data analysis, see Andrew Gelman's blog post here: [http://andrewgelman.com/2013/02/12/that-claim-that- harvard-a...](http://andrewgelman.com/2013/02/12/that-claim-that-harvard- admissions-discriminate-in-favor-of-jews-after-checking-the-statistics-maybe- not/) ~~~ argonaut Did you read the analysis? I mean, the length of his critique should already tip you off, since Unz's article takes at least 2-3 hours to read. Gelman only criticizes Unz's assertion that Jews are overrepresented. _Gelman says in that critique that he agrees there is an underrepresentation of Asians._ ------ david_shaw I can't speak to whether admissions officers are, consciously or not, discriminating against Asians. What I can contribute, however, are my (admittedly anecdotal) experiences with Asian households, and my own personal experience with the college application process. I am not Asian. Probably because of my own interest in sciences and mathematics, many of my friends in high school were Asian. They tended to excel in schoolwork, in no small part because they were under _huge_ amounts of pressure from their parents. I'm not saying that all Asian families "force" their children to study ad-nauseum, but the "high expectations Asian father" Internet meme is at least _somewhat_ based in truth, stereotyped or not. Because of this pressure (and supportive culture of success), Asians tend do incredibly well in school, as well as on standardized tests... but the more they study, the proportionally less time they have to do _other_ activities that make students "well-rounded," which is one of the qualities that top-tier universities value. My _personal_ college application process involved SAT scores that were very good, and a GPA that was solid but somewhat average. However, I had done several sports in high school, done a considerable amount of community service, had _three_ technical jobs (two as a developer, one as a security analyst), and released open source software--all while passing my classes. I was passionate about computer science, and I believe that that helped me gain admission to very good universities. I'm not trying to "blame the victim" with this comment--it may very well be that admissions officers harbor prejudices against Asians--but I also think it's worth noting that when you're talking about the top-tier of our education system--the Stanfords, Harvards and MITs of the world--great grades _aren't enough_ to gain admission. ~~~ rayiner "but the more they study, the proportionally less time they have to do other activities that make students 'well-rounded,' which is one of the qualities that top-tier universities value." "Well rounded" is code for "like the WASPs we used to admit in years past." Look at the kinds of things colleges value: community service, sports, etc. These are the things that used to in years past set people of good breeding apart from the regular people who were too busy keeping a roof over their head. ~~~ Vlaix Trying to experience a bit of everything isn't a WASP thing, it's bona fide Humanism. As Montaigne put it : « I like better a well rounded head than a well filled one ». Western Universities are (or should be) the heirs of this tradition. ~~~ rayiner Montaigne is a WASP thing. ------ wfunction I don't get is, how is this surprising? When affirmative action is letting more people from some group in than they normally would, then isn't it kind of obvious that other groups will take the hit? It's not some magical force... when A + B is to be constant (total capacity), then increasing B decreases A. ~~~ litewulf If that is the case, then why do Asians underperformed compared to Whites? If affirmative action is meant to help underrepresented groups, shouldn't the overrepresented group be the one "taking the hit"? ~~~ streptomycin Asians are the overrepresented group. ~~~ wfunction Overrepresented? Is the Asian to non-Asian ratio is higher fir college students than for qualified applicants to those colleges? ~~~ streptomycin You'd have to define "qualified" first to answer that question... but anyway, that's not what overrepresented means. ~~~ wfunction What does it mean then? ~~~ streptomycin There is a higher proportion of X in Y than there is of X in the total population. ~~~ wfunction That's like saying children of age 6 are overrepresented in kindergarten, because there is a higher proportion of kids of age 6 in kindergarten than in the total population! The "natural" (equally-represented) proportion isn't that in the total population, it's the proportion in the population of interest, which in this case is the set of qualified applicants. ~~~ streptomycin The meaning of words does depend on context of course. Regardless, rest assured that when you hear someone say "overrepresented" and they are talking about higher education, they are using the definition I gave you above. ~~~ wfunction Well then the word is quite uninteresting and meaningless. ------ yosho Being an Asian American that fits the model minority stereotype, I already expressed my thoughts on Quora, specifically on affirmative action and racism which you can read here: <http://qr.ae/TEVfO> It's fairly obvious to me that colleges do discriminate against Asians, and that this reverse racism does need to stop whether it's intentional or not. Everyone here talks about how Asians are like this or like that... the reality is that Asians are a pretty diverse group of people, and while you do have your nerdy, book worm types, you also have Asians who were captains of their basketball team or who played football or another major sport. Most people who are at the top of their class are extremely gifted in more ways than one and good parenting isn't the only factor that gets them there. I have cousins who have 'tiger-mom' parents but their grades are still suffering. We need to stop generalizing everyone into the same buckets, that's part of the problem. I'm all for diversity, I would love to see colleges adopt a race blind admission process and focus on all the criteria that they value and see what happens. I almost guarantee that we will see the Asian acceptance rates rise even with the focus on "diversity". Right now, it seems like it's straight forward discrimination at play that is guised as diversity seeking... since by diversity, what they're really saying is that we want less Asians in our top schools. ~~~ hashmymustache I don't disagree with you, but I'm curious how you explain the test performance disparity across races. If you look at the top public high school, TJ, blacks/hispanics compose 4% of the class at 25% of the population while asians make up 60% of the class at 5% of the population. Is it because asians are that much more naturally gifted? I realize with regard to affirmative action that race is a poor proxy for socioeconomic status, but it is statistically practical with regard to cultural values. You mentioned "I went to an Ivy League school, I fit the Asian model minority stereotype pretty well." How much did your parents influence your priorities in weighing education? One of the issues seems to be that colleges are attempting to address institutionalized racism too late in students' lives. ~~~ newnewnew If a child grows us with a crummy culture with regards to education, has he experienced "institutionalized racism"? I feel like the english language is being rapidly perverted. ~~~ hashmymustache Well black kids were first let into white schools in 1960. That's 50 years ago. You don't think that exclusion shaped cultural views toward education? ------ kenster07 So much tiptoeing. The answer is 'yes.' They do. I had a tougher high school course load, a better GPA, significantly higher SAT I and SAT II scores, and comparable extracirriculars to everyone in my class who got accepted to elite university X. Thing is, I'm Asian, and they were all more coveted minorities. The good news is, your university does not determine your future. You do. Once class is out and you're in the real world, the only thing that matters at the end of the day is PRODUCING VALUE. ------ candybar What's interesting to me is that elite colleges are doing this under the pretense that qualifications other than SAT and grades, like life experiences, character, community involvement, etc, matter greatly, but statistics suggest that Asians without the scores and the grades are even more out of luck when it comes to the top schools. Admissions officers are not some kind of mind reading wizards who are able to churn through thousands of applications and figure out who are amazing people despite bad test scores and grades and who are frauds despite high test scores and grades, merely based on short descriptions of what they did outside of classes. They are underpaid paper pushers forced to judge people who are likely smarter than they are, with very little information. There are two main reasons for the holistic evaluation. One, to give themselves plausible deniability when they need to tweak the student body to fit institutional purposes. Two, to introduce sufficient randomness into the process to reduce the incentive to game the process. The truth is that top private schools are in the business of soliciting donations from wealthy donors and selling an image of prestig while avoiding major controversies. Having a heavily Asian-dominated student body doesn't serve any of those goals. They are politically weak, not a threat to organize and are seen as foreign by a large portion of the population. ------ wfunction > “Harvard College welcomes talented students from all backgrounds, including > Asian-Americans… The admissions committee does not use quotas of any kind.” Yes, because using quotas would be illegal. But I don't understand how "does not use quotas" translates into equal treatment. Wasn't the whole point of the UC v. Bakke case to say that quotas are illegal, but race is still a legitimate factor to consider in admission? This sentence means nothing. ~~~ twoodfin Would quotas be illegal for a private university? ~~~ OGinparadise They accept government funds and grants so I _think_ that the government can force them to do almost anything. ~~~ twoodfin That's not true. They couldn't, for example, demand editorial constraints on the Harvard _Crimson_. Private organizations don't give up their rights, including their right to free association, just by accepting government dollars. ~~~ wfunction You misunderstood what the parent was saying. By "force them to do X" he meant the government can refuse to fund them if they didn't do X (which forces them to abide by the government's rules if they are accepting its funds), _not_ that the government can legally mandate them to do X unconditionally. ~~~ twoodfin Conditions placed on the recipients of government expenditures are not unrestrained by Constitutional limitations. Witness the Supreme Court throwing out some of the strings attached to ACA's Medicaid expansion. ~~~ OGinparadise You are going on tangent after tangent as if to prove something. No one said that "unrestrained by Constitutional limitations" are ok. Suppose you have the right to exclude Blacks or Asians from your college (freedom of speech, associations or whatever) Once you take even a penny of federal dollars, directly or indirectly, you may have to agree not to discriminate. So YOU give up that right voluntarily. No one forces you to take the government's money. ------ mindcrime Maybe they do, but this whole discussion is missing the point that going to an "elite" university is not an essential step in having a successful life and career. I quoted a bunch of this data in a previous thread that I'm too lazy to search for right now, but the gist is, you have approximately as good a chance of becoming CEO of an S&P 500 company if you go to the University of Wisconsin as if you go to Harvard. So even if your goals are at the _extreme_ upper end of the spectrum, you aren't necessarily hurt by not going to an Ivy League school. A well known, well regarded State university puts you on pretty good footing as well. None of this, of course, is meant to say that discrimination is good, or that I encourage it or anything like that. Personally, I think admissions should be completely race-blind. I'm just saying there's a bigger picture that we should look at as well. If you don't get into Stanford, Brown, Columbia, Princeton, Yale, Harvard or wherever, fine... go to Georgia Tech, University of Virginia, University of Wisconsin, University of North Carolina - Chapel Hill, Clemson, University of California at Irvine, University of California at Santa Barbara, University of Texas, Pitt, Penn State, Miami, etc., etc., etc. You'll most likely do just fine. Heck, as far as that goes, there are some public, State universities that are probably as well regarded as some Ivy's, at least in some people's eyes. Look at UCal-Berkely. They are one of the most famous, well known, and well regarded schools in the frickin' world. Or how about UIUC? Not exactly a shabby reputation there. Or UM-College Park? You could do worse... ~~~ rdl I think you confuse the odds of a given exec being from Harvard vs. OSU with the odds that a Harvard student becomes an exec vs. that an OSU grad becomes an exec. All things equal, if you want to be a leader (especially in finance), going to Harvard is a better choice than Ohio State. ~~~ mindcrime In retrospect, you may be right, when factoring in the different size of the student populations. But nonetheless, I stand by the point that going to a good State school is a perfectly sufficient step to have a good - even amazing - career. Keep in mind that there are only, well, 500, S&P 500 CEOs. But a pretty damn successful and amazing career might be being the CEO of a multi- million dollar textile manufacturer in South Carolina, that nobody on HN has ever heard of. Of course I'm not arguing against aspiring to go to an Ivy if you have that chance. But one should absolutely not define their life by whether they get into an Ivy (or other "elite" ) school or not. Your ultimate success is going to, IMO, have more to do with how hard you work, and other characteristics, than the name on your degree. ~~~ rdl This is independent of school -- if someone like Steve Jobs didn't go to college for very long, he'd be fine (oh wait, he was). I'm involved with Thiel Foundation/20 Under 20; I think in a few years, it's possible that at the top end, it's not going to be as key to go to college. However, as that happens, the value of going to Stanford, Harvard, Princeton, Yale, MIT, CMU, Caltech seems to be going up, relatively. It actually seems to be that the value of going to the next batch (other Ivies, Berkeley, UW^2, Virginia Tech, Georgia Tech, etc.) is going down, and the ones blow that is falling through the floor. Sort of the same thing that's happening to the economy as a whole -- the top 1% is doing exceptionally well, the next 4-9% is doing better, and the rest is falling apart. ~~~ rdouble There's that payscale list of best ROI per college which mostly confirms this, but there are some colleges in the top 20 I wouldn't have thought of (Duke, Babson, Harvey Mudd). <http://www.payscale.com/college-education-value> ~~~ rdl Means or even medians are probably not terribly useful (Stanford and Harvard should be crushing the stats just based on Google/Facebook/etc.). A school which has a lot of people who go into public service or other low compensation positions would also be unfairly penalized. "Percentage of graduates who live the life they want after graduation" is probably the ideal metric, along with "net benefit to society". On a pure ROI basis, it's obviously going to go to the service academies and maybe Olin/Cooper Union, too. Good incomes on zero cost. But all of this also discounts the inputs; I'd consider a school which turns a bunch of otherwise-losers into median success citizens to be a success, while someplace which takes the children of Googlers and achieves the same result would be a horrible failure. It's complex. ~~~ dfc Its funny you mention Cooper Union, the grey lady had an article today about a change in tuition policy. The change being they will now charge: [http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/04/24/nyregion/cooper- union-t...](http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/04/24/nyregion/cooper-union-to- charge-undergraduates-tuition.xml) ~~~ rdl Yeah, I saw that :( And I think Olin may have changed their policy a few years ago (I'm not sure); seems to have tuition now, and a half scholarship for everyone. I think the proper tuition is something where a student can work during the year and summers to pay for it and emerge with little or no debt, or choose to do non-work activities and have debt which could be repaid with 10-20% of reasonable income in 10 years. I'm not sure if half of inflated tuition covers that. ------ CapitalistCartr I get so tired of seeing this sloppy thinking. Discrimination isn't bad. Its an essential part of clear judgement. Prejudicial discrimination is bad because its piss-poor discrimination. Of course universities are discriminating against a wide variety of people; they can't accept everyone. The question is whether its prejudicial, as in they've pre-judged these people because of a group they belong to before they've looked at them as an individual. ~~~ jsnk Do you think discrimination by public institutions is not bad? ~~~ CapitalistCartr I think you misunderstood my post. Your question is exactly the problem I addressed. Universities HAVE to discriminate; they cannot accept every applicant. The question is how are they doing it, is it a good way, and is there a better way. You discriminate every time you purchase one product over another, take one job over another, live in one area over another, befriend one person over another, etc. We all do. The key to doing it well is clear, analytical judgement about such decisions. Personally, I haven't seen much of that in University admissions at any school. ~~~ jsnk I am ok with private businesses or individuals going about their own business with whatever racist, homophobic, sexist policies. I don't care. I simply won't visit them or pay for their service. I read my fair share of Rothbard, Friedman and Block. Discrimination in the sense of making choice so long as the choice doesn't violate the rights of other is ok, even if it is morally despicable. This issue of universities is completely different. Even private universities get public funding. Universities are inexplicably tied to tax payers including Asians. This is where I see the problem. Either remove public funding from universities operating admission based on racism or stop having a racist admission standard. ------ jcampbell1 Yes. We should just take race off the applications, like we did on loan applications decades ago. If you want an affirmative action proxy, we can just use high school data, and zip code information, and questions like "did your parents attend college?" ~~~ fyi80 This is of course much better, to avoid AA going to rich black kids over poor white kids. ------ ekm2 It is interesting how SAT scores are unconsciously used as an indicator of low iQ in the black population while simultaneously being used to show that high asian scores in the test is an indicator of hardwork,not brilliance. ------ cdoxsey Thomas Sowell recently released a new book on this subject: [http://www.amazon.com/Intellectuals-and-Race- ebook/dp/B00BAH...](http://www.amazon.com/Intellectuals-and-Race- ebook/dp/B00BAH8D6K/ref=tmm_kin_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1366837955&sr=8-1) Clearly discrimination against Asians was one of the unforeseen consequences of affirmative action. What's particularly sad is it doesn't even help the people it was supposed to. For example: "Despite dire predictions that there would be a drastic reduction in the number of minority students in the University of California system after racial preferences in admission were banned, an empirical study showed that there were 'modest declines in black and Hispanic enrollment but an increase in black and Hispanic degrees.'" ------ nchuhoai Asians are fairly poorly represented compared to their raw "paper intellegence" in the business, cultural and politics of the United States. The following statements will include many generalizations, but I don't think it's a stretch to say that most Asians are studious, but rather shy, passive. Asians tend to generally not be viewed as "strong" personalities or leaders, but "born followers" that know how to get the job down quickly. It doesn't help that China always copies everything. As much as stereotypes are deceiving and ill for our society, I tend to think they hold a small, but ruthless grain of truth in them. and i am Asian. ------ learc83 They're not directly using quotas, but they get the same result by putting less emphasis on test scores and grades. There is a real argument that test scores are easily gamed, and that studying for the SAT for 2 hours a day because your parents made you, doesn't necessarily translate to success in college/life/business. ------ Xcelerate Alright, what's up with this weird article shuffling on HN lately? This was in the top position on the home page. I refresh the page, can't find it anymore, spend a few minutes checking my browser history, and suddenly it's at the bottom of the home page. This happens a lot lately, and it's confusing me. Could we at least get a moderator note when the article is moved or a different color to let users know it has been moved? EDIT: Holy cow, now it's on the 2nd page. What the heck? (And I bet I'm never going to get an explanation either.) ~~~ pg False positive by the flamewar detector. ------ rdl I've always wondered what happened if you lied, particularly if you had an ambiguous or misleading name. (If you really wanted to manipulate the system, join/start the Kenya club at your high school or something, and claim to be deeply interested in exploring your African roots. Don't mention that they're from 150000 years ago and not 300 years ago. You could potentially even leave the race question blank, or write in that you find race a European-centric concept which doesn't reflect your humanity...) ~~~ roguecoder I was made uncomfortable enough honestly reporting my racial background I can't imagine kids actually doing that. I am of mixed race, had a culturally non-White upbringing, but look as White as Wonderbread. College was a very weird experience, because I felt like I was either unfairly infringing on the challenges of the students who were obviously minorities at my school, or I had to ditch most of my upbringing and pretend to be as White as I look. ~~~ SPSteinbeck Just like a young Barack Obama. You could be president one day :) ------ lifeformed When I was an Asian student (I'm still Asian), my strategy was to apply to good-but-not-elite schools, and spent my time trying to load up diversity scholarships and merit-based scholarships. I got a full-ride to a great non-elite school; there are plenty of schools like the one I went to that would love to have more non-white students, and are even giving away money for it. I'd much rather go to a good school for free than to go to an elite one and be in debt. ------ eliben Why does ethnicity play a role in the USA in 2013? Is someone born here to parents who came from Asia considered "Asian"? Because he/she looks Asian? And what if he/she is 4th generation in the USA and looks Asian, is that considered Asian? This is baffling. ------ cimorene12 This is not a question. It's a statement. I knew about reverse racism in college admissions when I was 10 and starting to go to a college admissions counselor. I would also like to add this to the conversation: [http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/27/education/a-grueling- admis...](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/27/education/a-grueling-admissions- test-highlights-a-racial-divide.html?pagewanted=all). When the criteria to get into elite schools is completely objective, Asians get in disproportionately (what is called overrepresentation) because their families put a higher emphasis on education and doing well on tests. Not every Asian family has a Tiger Mother, but a significant portion of the Asian family places a lot of emphasis on academic achievement. I found the discussion about Jews to be interesting, because Jews in some ways are close to Asians. Jewish culture also places emphasis on scholarly achievement, but to a lesser extent than, for example, Amy Chua. That's why her mother-in-law and husband, who are Jewish, objected sometimes to Chua's overly rigorous methods. ------ gtr32x The current educational system utilizes SAT scores with a variety of other sources for determining acceptance. While there are other factors such as athleticism, social endeavors etc. SAT score is still often viewed as one of the key determining factors. It is of no doubt that Asians that apply to these top universities as a whole have higher SAT scores. However it does not say of their other qualities, those were perhaps the reasons why there was a lower acceptance rate for them. In our current educational system, the only transparently comparable bar is the SAT score, while every other factor is more or less arbitrarily judgmental, e.g. can be manipulated. Asians learn that in order to become better, they'll at least put down efforts to increase the clearly visible bar to increase their chance. It is not to say that they will overlook the other factors, just since they aren't as apparent and obvious, they will make sure their SAT score does fare better. One argument can be that because Asians put down more effort and time in their SAT (bookworms), then they will not be able to fare better in other metrics. I won't say that this doesn't make sense, it does, but it calls for generalization bias. Especially when a data set has been collected that speaks for a year's worth of group, I do not believe the general idea that Asian are less adept in other metrics is true. Under this assumption, when we see data that SAT score (the only visible metric) is actually leveraged against a person's race, that is plain racism. Not saying racism is a bad thing, if schools determine that collectively as a whole they need diversity to strength the core values, racism is just one factor to play with to achieve their goals. The only problem that I do have with though is, with all the metrics you throw out there, the group of people that just naturally put down more effort to increase their chance gets punished, because of racism/diversity reasons. ~~~ jsnk You did mention it in the last paragraph, but let's reiterate that. In the end, it is plain racism against Asians, solely for being Asian. People can continue to shroud this fact with more comforting language such as "diversity" that's politically salient, but end result for Asians is all the same, plain old racism. No one is saying that SAT is the sole standard of admission. But does anyone really believe that Asians as a group collectively are so horrible in admission standard (with exception of SAT score) that huge disparity in number of Asian applicants and Asian admissions are justified? ~~~ roguecoder Asians are not underrepresented relative to population-wide demographics, so it is only "obviously" discrimination if you assume that more Asians are qualified than students of other races. Otherwise, it is possible that these studies are failing to take into account some dynamic. To play devil's advocate, for example: Asians may be more likely than other groups to apply to these schools. It may be that Asians with high SAT scores but weaker applications in other areas are more likely to apply to highly selective schools than comparable students of other races, which would lead to lower admission rates. The numbers here wink suggestively, but they present a far from airtight case. ~~~ jsnk <<Asians are not underrepresented relative to population-wide demographics, so it is only "obviously" discrimination if you assume that more Asians are qualified than students of other races.>> I am not assuming that Asians are more qualified than students of other races. Purely from the statistics provided by the blog, I find it hard to believe that Asians are doing so poorly in other admission standards that having several hundred extra SAT score doesn't put them in equal footing. Aren't you the one who is assuming that Asians are obviously failing in admission standards other than SAT compared to other races? ------ eagsalazar2 I had a prof I was friends with after graduating tell me they 100% did judge test scores and gpa of asian applicants differently than other races. His stance was that they wanted to select the very "best" applicants. Where best in his mind meant most likely to do great research and otherwise be brilliant. gpa and test scores are just one way to assess that. His experience was that with asians, gpa and test scores were a particularly bad metric for determining brilliance because the culture demanded 4.0 and perfect test scores more than in other cultures. Discrimination? Racism? I don't think so. Dangerously subjective? Definitely. But I'm not sure he was doing the wrong thing given the observable fact that there was low correlation between gpa/scores and performance. Not sure what is right either. ------ niggler I'd like to propose an alternate interpretation: There is some desired heterogeneity of intellect. Elite Colleges aren't just looking for sharp mathematicians. They want to attract sharp physicists, sharp philosophers, sharp linguists, sharp artists, sharp musicians, sharp poets etc. Now, in my experience there is a set of areas in which asians excel, but that doesn't comprise 100% of all areas. There are many areas where predominantly white people dominate. If you weight the distribution of ethnic origin along those lines, I suspect asians will be underrepresented relative to the distribution measured by SAT scores. ------ natrius The comparison between Caltech and the Ivies is a bit unfair. Caltech is in California, which has more Asians, and people tend to attend schools near home. Adding in Stanford would be illustrative. ~~~ cube13 Yup, I'd like to see Stanford as well. I'd also like to see what the breakdown for asians that are US citizens versus foreign nationals or immigrants. The other problem is that this article automatically assumes that private schools are "elite", and public schools aren't. That's true for certain fields-law and finance, for example, are dominated by the ivy league schools. STEM, on the other hand, is a much more even distribution. Many of the engineering programs at most of the Big 10 state schools are considered to be some of the best educations you can get, and the UC system is full of very good programs. UIUC's CS program is considered one of the best in the nation, as are Purdue's ME and aeronautical engineering programs. ~~~ natrius As far as public schools go, the article only excludes the UCs because they can't consider race. In fact, it uses Berkeley as a peer for the elite private schools. There's no other public school that has a reputation _across all disciplines_ similar to the elite private schools, so I don't think the article made any real oversight. There are many programs within public schools that are considered peers, though. ~~~ wildgift I thought UMich was considered very good too. ------ jug6ernaut The sad part is there will always be discrimination, all attempts to counter discrimination are in themselves discrimination. Until students/people are judged purely off their merits there will ALWAYS be discrimination. The truly sad part is it is openly acceptable to discriminate against whole groups of people purely based on statistics of whole groups. If this isn't the definition of stereotyping i don't know what is. Just because one's motivations are sound doesn't mean we should unanimously assume so are there actions. Judge people for who they are, not where they are from. ~~~ fyi80 Define "merits". That is a huge problem in itself, as traditional measures of merit encode cultural discrimination. ~~~ jug6ernaut I suppose that depends on what the goal of a school is. If the goal is to teach(which i think everyone can agree is there purpose?), then cultural discrimination, or any discrimination has no place in it education process. In school students are judged by their grades, so should they be in the selection process. Any deviation from this IS discrimination, again assuming the goal is to teach. ------ lsc This brings up another question. Just how far are these things verified? What would happen if I checked the box marked "African American" - would they ask for documentation? If, somehow, someone decided to look into my ancestry, and they didn't find any other people identifying as the race I checked on my admissions form, what would be the consequence? Would I get in trouble or something? There's gotta be case law on this... ------ conjecTech Honest question: How well do good academic scores in high school correlate with success in non-scientific majors? I go to a top-tier engineering university, and I know of multiple individuals who had perfect SAT scores and GPAs in high school that have been utter disappointments, and I've known people who by no reasonable metric should have gotten in that break curves in nearly every class. Hell, I was the first of 3 boys to get accepted here through normal means, but both of my older brothers ended up transferring in and subsequently graduated with GPAs of 3.96 and 4.0, with one now working on a PhD in physics under a Nobel Laureate and the other working in investment banking. I've honestly started to question how much predictive power these tradition metrics actually have among the subsets of students who think they have a good enough chance of getting in to a school to apply in the first place. If anyone knows of any good studies on the subject or perhaps has a data set that could be used for such analysis, please let me know. ------ Lukeas14 For anybody interested in running their own numbers, there is a wealth of demographic data on college admissions available called IPEDS from the National Center for Education Statistics. <http://nces.ed.gov/ipeds/datacenter/DataFiles.aspx> ------ realitygrill Allow me to posit that a primarily intrinsically-motivated Asian student dealing with high-pressure immigrant culture is in a particularly shitty situation: 1\. Feels forced to spend the extra time - at diminishing returns - to do well at everything with a grade attached. This comes at the expense of passion- based activities, regarded as 'useless' or invalid as a 'line item for the resume'. (There is wide understanding that you need extracurriculars to look good. As pg says, these are mostly bogus.) 2\. The pressure itself is killing your intrinsic motivation, which means the surviving applicants are primarily conformist types. 3\. Even if you somehow make it through intact, colleges will assume the stereotype and view your application through those lenses. ------ fixxer Can't speak for Harvard, but I'm at a pretty good public engineering school and I'm quite confident that we aren't discriminating against Asian students. If anything, they are sought after to help keep the lights on (they are the only ones paying full tuition). ~~~ fyi80 Are you referring to Asian-Americans, or Asian international students? Public schools love the international student tuition money these days, it's such a farce, turning "public" education on its head. ~~~ fixxer Asian internationals. I hear rumblings that U.S. schools are falling out of favor with Chinese, but I haven't seen evidence and my colleagues have more applicants than ever. ------ seanmcdirmid Even state schools have some sort of quota based on region. For example, its much easier to get into UW if you are from Eastern Washington than if you are from Western Washington (otherwise, UW would be dominated by kids from the Seattle area). ------ dingjian98 In my view, the top universities' admission process is just like how the VC select start-ups. The school's goal is to seek the maximum return just like any other investors. What will this student bring to the university as the return of the investment, it could be more chance to get donation from a potential entrepreneur, academic fame from a genius, or a beautiful story of a student coming from some difficult background. And also, this seems aligned with the long term success defined by the main stream. No sure for the public school, though no problem with the private school. ------ lukejduncan I don't remember if my college applications (not an ivy league school) asked my ethnicity, but on principle I always answer "prefer not to say" anytime I'm asked in a form. It's just a dumb criteria for anything. ------ sodomizer What bothers me most about elite colleges is that they're based on sheer amount of work, not actual ability. Thus you get a lot of droids who are good memorizer/regurgitators but not necessarily all that wise, perceptive, creative, etc. In my experience, schools discriminate against groups which they see as proxies for this group, such as doctor's kids, nerds, Asians, because having too many of them will mean a miserable "is this on the final?" campus with no commitment to learning. ------ stevenameyer I would be interested to see how prevalent this is at top institutions around the world. I can be fairly confident that my program does not do this as my class is very far from diverse. (the large majority of students being asian males) I have heard of a little bit of black magic that is involved in the acceptance process but in order to accept people who are more likely to succeed in the program. But race definitely does not come into play. ------ fatjokes Yes. Now what is anybody going to do about it? Asian-Americans lack the numbers and the political clout as African- and Hispanic-Americans. Asians do not have a Sharpton. It's also tough to sympathize with a bunch of kids protesting how they weren't let into Harvard / Princeton / etc. It's unfair, and it sucks for them. Jews got around it after Asians came around and took their place. Who can Asians wait for? ~~~ gyardley Jews 'got around it' due to sustained media and political pressure in the 1950s - we didn't wait for anybody. Nor did Asians take our place - quotas against Jews in elite universities were largely lifted before the widespread adoption of affirmative action, which is when Asians' problems began. If you want to do something about it, don't wait for some other minority group to come along and be the goat, organize. There's a lot more Asians than Jews in this country - you should be able to build an organization at least as effective as the Anti-Defamation League. And for god's sake, at least stop voting for politicians who support affirmative action. If you vote for politicians who discriminate against you, those politicians are going to quite reasonably conclude that you don't really care about being discriminated against. ~~~ Crake I think it will first take realizing that they don't deserve to be discriminated against. A lot of my asian friends are just like, oh well, nothing to be done about it. It's an attitude I find quite perplexing. Even the ones that do care about it do so only mildly--nowhere near the level of outrage that is mustered by a hispanic or black person when they (increasingly more rarely, today) encounter a similar problem. ~~~ chii Theres a bit of culture of submitting to authority in the asian zeitgeist. This is probably because of that. ------ bane Maybe another way to think of it is, "Do Elite Colleges Discriminate Against The Kinds of Things Asian Tiger Moms Think Will Get Their Kids Into Their School?" At risk of sounds discriminator and stereotyping, the number of Chinese and Korean kids applying for college with 4.0 GPAs, perfect SATs with awards for Math and who play either expert level piano or violin is just simply not interesting anymore. ------ nacho2sweet I worked on the web side of a non elite but good universities student recruitment department. I would hear stories all the time of Asian parents coming in and handling their whole child's enrollment process. Many of the administrators found it kind of funny/horrifying/sad all at the same time. ------ digitalzombie Ha! Jokes on ivy league! I only applied to UCs! But yeah I often hear lots of my Asian friends talked about changing their race. Like if they're half white they would rather put white down. I joked about being blackanese. Wow, good for Cal tech though, non race specific admission likewise for the UCs. ------ jrokisky Judging talent is extremely difficult, especially when the pool of candidates is at arguably the most volatile point in their lives. I think setting some standard benchmark is necessary, but diversity needs to be guaranteed. (Even if it is as heavy-handed as basing it on race) ------ mustafakidd Isn't it strange that middle easterners have to go through life being treated as non white and dealing with all sorts of social issues around that - especially in the past decade - and yet get no "benefit" when it comes time for admissions? ~~~ Crake Race based discrimination that favors any given minority will only come after the political/social upheaval that disadvantaged them has ceased to exist, more or less. At least, you have to reached the peak of your civil rights movement for that particular group, so that it's "obvious" that it's not just a "political opinion" to discriminate against them. This is why you presently see homeless GLBT kids who don't qualify for federal financial aid, while wealthy hispanic/black kids at private high schools get easy admits and full rides to wherever they apply. It'll happen for middle easterners only once people no longer mind them--of course, then people will think it unfair that they are so oppressed, and whatever the current group-to-be-hated of that decade is will be further discriminated against in favor of correcting for a social pressure that has long since disappeared. ------ coherentpony Not at Cambridge or Oxford. Recruiting international students is what they do especially for science or mathematics, where education in these areas is a lot better in some Asian countries than the UK. ------ AlexeiSadeski This is the opposite of news. The fact that whites actually benefit from affirmative action, to the detriment of Asians and Asian Indians, has been well known and obvious for a long time now. ~~~ james1071 [http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-myth- of-...](http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-myth-of-american- meritocracy/) ------ andrewchoi Asian American student at an Ivy League school currently here, if you'd like anecdotal evidence. Ask away! ------ lucidrains this is true for medical schools too ~~~ lucidrains this is all really just a debate of how to strike a balance between diversity and fair admissions. all a moot subject anyhow as we move towards open collaborative learning online. ------ spitx There are several problems with corralling peoples of varying regional backgrounds into a neat label or two. This poses a problem for the sake of consideration of applicants for admission into institutions of higher learning not unlike it does for consideration of peoples for any other purpose. The immediate problem is of the question of homogeneity. Although both Asian, are people of Filipino extraction similarly prone to academic excellence as their Chinese counterparts? Although both Black and hailing from much the same coordinates, do Haitians benefit from a culture that values the merits of higher education as do their Jamaican and other Carib brethren? Although all White, are the rates of adoption of fields of study uniform among Polish-Americans, Irish-Americans and all other non-Hispanic white Americans? ( The former president of Harvard University, Lawrence H. Summers has famously commented on how few numbers of Irish-Americans, as opposed to other whites, are to be found in high-finance. He has made more controversial statements about women in science and mathematics which are less relevant here. ) The more sensitive problem - and one that the universities seek to handle delicately - is the problem of producing a class of pupils that is deft at handling problems of the larger world that are not entirely limited to the narrow confines of their chosen area of study. Over the course of hundreds of years, universities have come to learn that a purely academically flourishing candidate, otherwise deficient in certain key qualities that make for a ringleader, is less than ideal for those larger missions. This has led to the emergence of the much vaunted, deservedly so, "well- rounded candidate". The candidate who sets himself or herself apart in matters of moral earnestness, social conscience and a world view. He who is not just driven by an achievement trophy-besotted vigor that sees education as a means to a higher rung. I'll leave it to the discursive minds here to explicate on the matter of how various groups including “piano playing, hard working" Asians fare in this regard and if that positively accounts for the disparity in acceptance rates for those groups. ~~~ cpr As much as I loathe Larry Summers' economics (he's a Goldman grad, after all), I have to defend him against the casual slur implied above. He didn't "make controversial statements about women," he simply asked a question about a fact, which is why men are far and away the (high end) outliers in math and science, and whether there might be something based on nature (vs nurture). For asking this un-PC question, he was basically driven out of the presidency at Harvard. When you can't even ask questions about reality without getting pilloried, you know things are rotten in academia. (Summers was a year ahead of me at school, though I didn't know him then.) ~~~ spitx I didn't mean to draw attention to the uproar over Summers' comments. If I hadn't been upfront about that portion, I was certain that people would try to scuttle the validity of the comments on Irish-Americans in light of what he said about women. People love to flog dead horses. ------ radiusq While I disagree that people should be discriminated based on ethnicity, I do think that a lot of asians who fit the bill as high GPA and high SAT are not doing themselves any favors by just sitting on those qualifications. In my professional experience working with a lot of early high-achievers (asian or not) they tend not to do that great in the professional world: lack of innovation, lack of creativity, willingness to only follow- not lead. Many also seem to get burned out by the time they start their career and start to show lack of discipline. I think theres a lot of value in looking beyond that GPA/SAT. We don't want a lot of identical personalities on a campus nor in the workplace. High GPA/SAT does not necessarily breed the innovation and creativity that makes this country strong (how's China doing on that front?). Lets make the conversation about that. Thats really what this should be about. ------ OGinparadise _“Harvard College welcomes talented students from all backgrounds, including Asian-Americans… The admissions committee does not use quotas of any kind.”_ ....but we do value diversity :) and that's the same thing. It's unfair to Asians but then no one is entitled to being accepted at school A or B, and more than SAT scores and GPA should be at play. ~~~ tsotha >It's unfair to Asians but then no one is entitled to being accepted at school A or B... Uh huh. Substitute "Blacks" for "Asians" and somehow suddenly it's no longer okay. ~~~ hackinthebochs This makes no sense. This kind of sloppy thinking on a topic like this does nothing to further the discussion. ~~~ Crake It makes perfect sense. We've traded one group that it is socially and politically ok to hate based on their skin color in for another. I guess the idea that we should stop with race based discrimination altogether is too novel yet. So long as this is the case, the cycle will continue to repeat. ~~~ hackinthebochs The topic of Affirmative Action, or race- conscious admissions in general has _nothing_ to do with entitlement. Conflating the two is the sloppy thinking I'm referring to. >It makes perfect sense. We've traded one group that it is socially and politically ok to hate based on their skin color in for another. Let's not conflate the hatred leveled on Blacks which kept them out of higher education to not wanting your school full of bookworms (generalization, but I'm just making a point). This is just more sloppy thinking from you folks. ~~~ tsotha >Let's not conflate the hatred leveled on Blacks which kept them out of higher education to not wanting your school full of bookworms... That's just a rationalization. ------ pionar And once again, if the headline is in the form of a question, the answer is no.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
An appeal to all package managers - Seldaek http://nelm.io/blog/2012/05/an-appeal-to-all-package-managers/ ====== wilmoore This is a great idea. A protocol/standard to handle front-end asset packaging. There will likely be suggestions to use existing tool X or Y; however, a non- language specific standard (as this article suggests) would be the most useful to all. Excellent proposal.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
JPEG 101: A Crash Course Guide on JPEG - kingsidharth http://sixrevisions.com/graphics-design/jpeg-101-a-crash-course-guide-on-jpeg/ ====== Yaggo > modern operating systems recognize both .jpg and .jpeg Modern operating systems have much more advanced methods to regocnize filetypes. From web developer's perspective, I really hope JNG would gain more support, since it solves the biggest problem of JPEG, the lack of transparency support (so called "alpha-channel"). <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JPEG_Network_Graphics> 24-bit PNG is often really impractical as a replacement for JPEG due to its huge filesize (for certain type of images). ------ mkross The list of things to know about JPEG includes what the acronym means and how it is pronounced. If you're looking for a technical description, this isn't it. ~~~ ifonly > If you're looking for a technical description, this isn't it. If only they'd made that clear in the title with something along the lines of "crash course". ~~~ mkross "Crash course" doesn't explicitly mean non-technical. It could have included an overview of the encoding algorithm that doesn't go into perf improvements most commonly used.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
The Marshmallow Test: What Does It Really Measure? - katiey https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2018/06/marshmallow-test/561779/?single_page=true ====== abainbridge > The researchers also, when analyzing their test’s results, controlled for > certain factors—such as the income of a child’s household Is that a valid thing to do? If "will power" was a strongly inherited trait, and the theory is that will power leads to increase household income in adult life, then this controlling would remove most of the signal. The original paper relied partly on a questionnaire that asked the parents how good their kids were at self-control. That seems unlikely to be reliable. They also used SAT scores, which seems like a better measure. The abstract for the new paper doesn't mention what they measured. In conclusion, I'm not sure I learned anything here. ~~~ comboy Marshmallows represent different value for kids with different background. Some can have them every day, for some it's something they only saw other kids eating. It's similar to how it would be easy to risk $50K for somebody with $100M net worth compared to somebody whose net worth is $100K. ~~~ stochastic_monk I grew up in a household without sugary cereals. My siblings and I would sing songs and dance with excitement when we had them. Socioeconomic status certainly explains the difference between cohorts, but perhaps it’s the easier signal to catch while the core mechanism is a matter of what is available in one’s household. ~~~ _red Why did your parents seek to create a household which avoided sugary snacks? The fact is, that itself could be representative of the genetic predisposition towards self-control. ~~~ stochastic_monk It was a health decision. For good or bad? It could be parents who don’t trust their self-control or who have a surplus of it and expect the same from their children. ------ 4bpp So this is suggesting that childhood poverty may be a strong correlate of whatever the marshmallow test tests (and childhood poverty is plausibly a strong correlate of life outcomes, so the effect might be completely mediated via childhood poverty rather than any notion of "affinity towards delayed gratification"), but I'm not sure I understand how/whether it rules out the following two. (1) whatever quality X the marshmallow test tests is so strongly heritable that the parents of X children already are X and therefore tend to be more poor (2) poverty is causative of X (maybe even by the mechanism the article suggests, i.e. less stability -> higher uncertainty -> higher discounting of expected future outcomes), but it's still accurate to label X "delaying of gratification", and it is in fact causative to success; therefore, this is a mechanism by which poverty perpetuates itself ~~~ yk The study is suggesting that the marshmallow test is a test of mother without college degree, and not testing something about the children beyond that. [0] And in general, my suspicion about psychology is, that since you can always invent an objection in the form of your (1) and (2), I doubt that statistic is an actually good tool to look at these tests. If we assume for a moment that we somehow get a ground truth of the experiment, by divine revelation or however, then I suspect that we would see that we need as many categories as there are children to get anything predictive. [0] [http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0956797618761661](http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0956797618761661) ~~~ jabgrabdthrow > I suspect that we would see that we need as many categories as there are > children to get anything predictive. Making a category to predict human behavior generally hurts those who are “miscategorized” much more than it helps those who are accurately categorized (there aren’t really “positive stereotypes” that jump into active-decision processes like with negative stereotypes). Therefore, we should not try to predict behavior by making even fuzzy- categories other than one-child-per-category, since this may literally hurt children, especially systemically underprivileged and underrepresented children. It’s important to control your own decision factors against your local collection of “known non-causations”! ------ joosteto Response by one of the original authors: [https://jasoncollins.blog/2018/05/31/the-marshmallow-test- he...](https://jasoncollins.blog/2018/05/31/the-marshmallow-test-held-up-ok/) ~~~ neonate Good link, but that's not one of the original authors, assuming you meant of the Marshmallow study. Edit: I enjoyed the post, but his point turns out to be a relatively narrow one: _The other headline from the replication is that the predictive ability of the marshmallow test disappears with controls. That is, if you account for the children’s socioeconomic status [etc...], the marshmallow test does not provide any further information about that future achievement. It’s no surprise that controls of this nature do this. It simply suggests that the controls are better predictors. The original claim was not that the marshmallow test was the best or only predictor._ Such a defense of the original claim makes sense in an academic context but doesn't touch on why the marshmallow study made it into pop culture in the first place. That was because of what it seemed to suggest about character and self-control. The new study puts quite a different spin on that, as Collins agrees: _What is called into question are the implications that have been drawn from the marshmallow test studies._ The fact that those implications weren't part of Shoda, Mischel, and Peake's original study is good to know, but not the most important thing for non- specialists. ~~~ letsgetphysITal > Such a defense of the original claim makes sense in an academic context but > doesn't touch on why the marshmallow study made it into pop culture in the > first place. The Marshmallow Test is something the lay person can understand, and comes with a great real-world demonstration, accurate or not. Other measures require more field-specific knowledge or statistics education to understand. ------ MarkMc A witty comment on Twitter: The real marshmallow test was to see who could resist pontificating on meaning of the original marshmallow test until a generation passed for it to be properly replicated. And you failed, all of you. [https://t.co/ayQshjt7BA](https://t.co/ayQshjt7BA) ~~~ vanderZwan FYI, it looks like you linked to a different comment, and I can't find the one you quoted ~~~ tqi I think it was this one: [https://twitter.com/hamandcheese/status/1001166897113595906](https://twitter.com/hamandcheese/status/1001166897113595906) ~~~ vanderZwan Thanks! It did not show up for me in the replies when scrolling down ------ niklasd Another example of studies that seem to be hard to dublicate is about the concept of priming [0]. I think sometimes the non-scientific community picks up an idea which just seems so good and starts to apply it to an array of life sitations, while the idea itself might be limited to a small amount of sitations/conclusions. Especially with priming, I read some hair-raising statemens from laymen, about how priming seems to explain virtually everything. It also happens to scientists, of course, but they tend to be a bit more careful and stick a little closer to the original experiment (which itself might not be evidence enough for the conclusion). [0] [https://replicationindex.wordpress.com/2017/02/02/reconstruc...](https://replicationindex.wordpress.com/2017/02/02/reconstruction- of-a-train-wreck-how-priming-research-went-of-the-rails/comment- page-1/#comment-1454) ------ gcthomas I see so many forum discussions where posters criticise the poor for their 'weak' decisions and effectively blame the poor for their own plight. Why don't they just work harder and earn the money to pay for their healthcare and education? they say. It is easy to withhold funding from deprived areas if you convince yourself that it is their own fault. These results should be on the front pages of newspapers and on TV (and Twitter: @POTUS I'm thinking of you!). The idea that children raised with few resources need help to plan for the long term seems to be rather lost on many politicians these days. ~~~ TheOtherHobbes Scarcity is an outstanding book about this, and makes the point that severe constraints on _anything_ \- money, food, free time - can have psychologically damaging effects. In fact it’s extremely toxic - far more damaging than manynthings that have been banned now. ~~~ fvdessen Is poverty really linked to food scarcity in western countries anymore ? The statistics show that overall, the poor are fatter than the rich. ~~~ cimmanom Because they have access to only poor quality foods. There may not be calorie scarcity but there is nutrition scarcity. And yes, for some there's also "food insecurity" which is not knowing where your next meal is coming from or having to choose between food and other necessities (shelter, warm winter clothing, medical care, transportation, etc.) ~~~ mynameishere This just isn't true. It's so obviously not true it's really very amazing that people repeat it. Go to a Dollar General in a poor area sometime. They have lots of potato chips and assorted crap. Yep. They also have canned beans, fruit, refrigerated sausage, cheese, chicken, etc. None of this is unaffordable. That's Dollar General. _Most_ places have access to a Walmart which is as good nutritionally as any grocery store that ever existed. If people buy junk food it's because they enjoy it. Christ, even your typical gas station sells salad these days. ~~~ learc83 Cheap junk food is much more palatable than cheap healthy food. > Most places have access to a Walmart which is as good nutritionally as any > grocery store that ever existed. Walmart tends to avoid the inner city. If you don't have a car there generally isn't one close enough to shop at more than once a week or so. Bringing home a week of groceries for a family on bus isn't a trivial task. It's much easier to pick up some cheap food from a convenience store. > Christ, even your typical gas station sells salad these days. If you compare the per calorie price of that salad to junk food, it's much more expensive. ------ yasp Has anyone studied whether time preference might be genetically heritable? Edit: why am I being downvoted for this? ~~~ finolex1 Because it's closely related to research on the genetic basis of intelligence. Poor research on these topics in the past have been used to justify rather egregious social policies (eugenics, birth control, racial discrimination, etc). Even if it is heritable, making the knowledge public can only lead to a sense of fatalism. ~~~ RyanZAG > Even if it is heritable, making the knowledge public can only lead to a > sense of fatalism. That's a really terrible way to look at the world, and has caused a lot of suffering. It's the very basis of the term 'heretic' that has caused so much loss throughout human history. No human ever has the right to deny knowledge to another for their own benefit, because humans are not able to accurately determine what knowledge is or is not harmful for others to hold. Often their choice to withhold knowledge causes the most harm of all. EDIT: Thinking about it more, 'the right' is not correct. Withholding knowledge can be a malicious or competitive activity, but can never be a beneficial one. Ie, you have the right to withhold knowledge from your enemies to harm them, or withhold knowledge from competitors to increase your chances of winning. But you need to be clear on this with yourself: you're not withholding knowledge for anyone's benefit but your own. ~~~ aidenn0 If I withhold knowledge of where my gun is from my angry friend who wants to kill someone, that benefits two people that are not myself (my friend who would likely go to jail, and the person he is planning to kill). ------ chiefalchemist In "The Influential Mind" she actual proposes another theory. Ultimately, it's about trust. That is, if you've been betrayed in the past and you don't believe the promise of waiting means a reward, you'll not wait. It makes sense. Trust and risk are also useful tools over the long run. ------ afpx Not surprising. One thing that I’ve learned about the rich is that they make their children comply and be conscientious. Also, they seem to be really good at creating tests that show that that they are naturally superior⸮ As a side-note (maybe someone can correct me), I thought that GWAS could so far only find two personality traits that were heritable: extroversion and neuroticism. If so, is there much point in these types of experiments except to sell pop-science books and magazines? ------ wombat92 I was always skeptical of the marshmallow test. It let too many questions open on why children eat the marshmallows. Was it because they hadn't eaten before and came to school with low blood sugar, knew that waiting fifteen minutes for two sweets the price of a penny is idiotic or that they felt uncomfortable in the room and wanted to leave as early as possible? ~~~ MikkoFinell So you were able to think of a couple confounding factors off the top of your head, but you dismiss the idea that the researchers had considered those factors and controlled for it? Despite the fact that their full time job it is to think about things like that, and their careers are on the line if they embarrass themselves by disregarding something as obvious and trivial like that? Did you even read the original paper? ~~~ vanderZwan This very article is about how the original paper did not control enough for confounding factors: > _Watts and his colleagues were skeptical of that finding. The original > results were based on studies that included fewer than 90 children—all > enrolled in a preschool on Stanford’s campus. In restaging the experiment, > Watts and his colleagues thus adjusted the experimental design in important > ways: The researchers used a sample that was much larger—more than 900 > children—and also more representative of the general population in terms of > race, ethnicity, and parents’ education. The researchers also, when > analyzing their test’s results, controlled for certain factors—such as the > income of a child’s household—that might explain children’s ability to delay > gratification and their long-term success._ ~~~ MikkoFinell The quote you copy-pasted from the article has nothing to do with my comment. ~~~ vanderZwan You complain to GP for not considering that the people who published the original Marshmallow test paper had controlled for confounding factors. In the opening paragraph, other researchers complain about just that. In other words: a more sensible reading of GP's comment would be as a reaction to said paragraph. ~~~ MikkoFinell I asked why OP is dismissing the possibility that the authors considered the specific factors OP mentioned. The quote you posted did not address that question. That is why it is not related to my comment, like I already said. ------ vezycash The article misses a keyword - RISK or risk tolerance. Rich kids are able to take MORE risks than poor kids. We know that risk taking is positively correlated with wealth. Both rich kids and poor kids take risks (financial and otherwise) get different results when they fail and when they succeed. Simply, the rich kids suffer less from financial failures and make more money from their financial successes. FAILURE The poor become fearful after a few failures. Then over-compensate (by being wasteful spenders as mentioned in the article) or under-compensate (stick only to absolutely safe paths - bad in the long term) A loss of $10,000 might get only a shrug from the rich kid but the poor kid might go mad with depression and suicidal thoughts. SUCCESS Finally, let's look at what success means to both classes. If we look at money as leverage, then even financial success between the rich and the poor is completely different. Let's look at what a $0.1 increase in a stock price means to the two classes. Person A has 100 stocks - $10 profit. Person B has 100,000 - $10k profit. Same investment. Both succeed in the same stock but result is completely different. Writing this has clarified one point for me. The poor need to risk a larger percentage of their networth to see sizeable returns on their success. When wins don't feel like wins and losses are devastating, it creates apathy towards trying. ------ taneq I wonder how you'd control for the fact that the Marshmallow Test is widely known and that parents may have explicitly trained their children on similar problems in the hope that they'll benefit later from the ability to delay gratification? ~~~ zeth___ If you think poor people have time for doing that you haven't been poor. ~~~ taneq So maybe well-off people score better on the test because they have time to teach their kids some self-restraint, not because they're genetically better able to resist marshmallows? ~~~ watwut The question was not whether delayed gratification is genetic or not. The question was whether not eating candy when stranger promiss you more candy for not eating it makes you more successful later in life. The correlation was found weak. ------ rahimnathwani The paper may be good, but the article is poorly written: \- it suggests that it is only after the publication of this paper that people have questioned the causality relationship in the results of the original study \- it talks about reinterpretation of the original study's outputs as 'replication', whereas nowhere in the article does it suggest that anyone attempted to replicate the experiment ------ gnicholas Did the new researchers check to see if the parents were aware of the marshmallow test or had ever tried it with their kids? My guess is that at least some of the parents would have heard of it since it is very well-known. These days, it's even in kid-focused apps [1] that are designed to help with emotional development. I know many parents who have tried it with their kids to see how they'd do. It's likely that knowledge of the marshmallow test correlates with education and income, so this could be part of the reason for the effects the researchers saw. 1: [https://eqtainment.com/](https://eqtainment.com/) ------ amiune How do they control how hungry kids are? This kind of experiments always remember me about this Feynman statement about Young's rat experiment: [http://calteches.library.caltech.edu/51/2/CargoCult.htm](http://calteches.library.caltech.edu/51/2/CargoCult.htm) ------ heavenlyblue Thinking that the only reason poor kids would prefer to eat the first marshmallow due to having a low willpower is incredibly shallow: what if the kid had an experience in life that tells him that no matter how credible the source is, the second marshmallow has a huge probability of never coming; or for what's it worth - they'll take away both of them since the child tried to be "smart”? Edit: came here to attack the article, but turns out my opinion is actially the opinion of the article in the first place. They actually do say that this test is not actually a test of willpower. ~~~ ivanhoe You have an over-simplistic view of the original research. It wasn't only about the "willpower", but also coping mechanisms than we employ to control our urges. And it proven that some children are way better in this than others. For instance some kids would turn their back to the cookie, or would come up with some other distraction, so that they don't think about eating it. Having this type of resourcefulness to quickly adopt to the situation is probably a personal trait that comes very handy in one's life. ~~~ heavenlyblue You’re arguing definitions. Resourcefullness is encompassed by willpower in the context of this article. Yet the point I am trying to make is that poor kids would have a tendency to make their decisions based on their context which isn’t, sadly - optimal in most cases. The connection between “this kid doesn’t have to think about rudimentary issues because he’s better off” becomes closer to “rich people can risk more because their risk is hedged by their well-being”. ------ newman8r Who cares about an extra marshmallow? They should do the experiment with slices of pizza. ~~~ p1mrx I'd imagine it hard to conduct a controlled experiment when step 1 is "bake a pizza". ~~~ thaumasiotes Presumably, you'd get the pizza from a pizza place. If you go for a national chain, you wouldn't even be restricted to testing kids all in the same location. ~~~ fma I would imagine a kid would think they would be full after the first slice and not care about the second. It would be better for the test to have the child rank edible items they like. Then a few weeks later run the test. But as a new father, I've learned that eating training will vary widely between families. Some families do not provide sweets as treats at all. Some will always provide it after every meal so the kids do not feel it is a reward or scarce resource. You can read up on the Satter method for details. ------ thedevil > The failed replication of the marshmallow test Actually, the result DID replicate here even though the experiment was slightly different. Other variables were introduced that might suggest additional explanations of the replicated result. ~~~ ouid Marshmallow willpower is still correlated with future success, but _only_ because it is correlated with wealth. This means that there's isn't a causal link between eating marshmallow willpower and success. which is a _different_ result, as the previous result included that as a possibility. ~~~ gnicholas If success is correlated with wealth, then wouldn't the original study (done with kids at a Stanford preschool) have shown a small/null result? That is, most of the kids have wealthy and well-educated parents. ------ nemonemo Many comments seem to cast doubt on the marshmellow test based on the article. I honestly don’t understand how the contents of the article could lead to such conclusion. Aren’t the economic status of the family and the result of the test both correlated with the future economic status, and no causal relationship is suggested? ------ tomtimtall Poor kids grow up with patents who can’t often fulfil their promises, rich kid man grow up with parents who can. The test is less about some inherent quality a person that can effect their future performance and more about their expectations given their expererience. The fatal flaw in the original experiment is that they assume that the child is give with 100% certainty a choice between instant and delayer gratifications, when is fact the delayed gratification is contingent in their trust in the experimenter. I’d wager if you did the experiment with one test being a fully trusted adult and the other being a fully distrusted adult but the same kid in both cases you would get both outcomes. ------ MichaelMoser123 Ok, they threw in lots of other parameters: so maybe the correct question should be - what does this test predict for children of the same social background? If this is a question that may not be asked then you may reconsider your basic assumptions. ------ twhb The paper's abstract [1] doesn't conclude that affluence is the source of delay gratification. Nor could it, using only this experiment. Even if a correlation is found, correlation does not imply causation. One could equally suspect that delay gratification leads to affluence (assuming parent-child similarity, whether by nature or nurture), or a third factor affecting both, etc. [1]: [http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0956797618761661](http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0956797618761661) ------ orbifold I've come across variations of this conclusion many times now: That it is really your parents affluence and educational background that predicts your success in school and how much you will earn in the future. This is often portrayed as being unjust. To me it always seemed obvious that children with affluent and well educated parents are more likely to be intelligent, have good self-control and other traits that are useful for being successful, simply because those traits are hereditary. ~~~ TomMckenny The study and article literally say that kids in a given socio-economic group have the same life outcomes whether the grab the marshmallow or not. And not just here but the notion that hereditary wealth correlates to intelligence has been endlessly refuted. But if it were true, wouldn't it mean that blue counties, being richer than red counties, have a much higher average IQ? ~~~ haihaibye > hereditary wealth correlates to intelligence has been endlessly refuted. Source? There's noise and luck (and IQ wasn't so much a factor for income historically) but given the following, how could it not be true? Intelligence leads to higher income (med school etc) Income leads to higher wealth Wealth is partly inherited. Intelligence is partly inherited. ~~~ TomMckenny This very article shows that rich tend to succeed and poor tend to fail regardless of whether the grab the marshmallow or not. But a summary of other issues include: If intelligence corresponds to wealth, we would expect Nobel prize winners and widely cited scientist to be the richest people. Royal families and their descendants, having concentrated their genes, should also be the most inventive, artistic or scientifically productive people. It is possible to improve earnings skills, the degree to which it can be improved is the degree to which it is behavioral rather than genetic. Rich people are scattered through the world and through history and thus have maximum genetic difference. They can not reasonably share a common gene that skips over millions of people between them, let alone crossing the Atlantic to end up in Montezuma's line. And if there were such genes, they would be extremely conspicuous. Yet in spite of great interest and success in sequencing, no gene correlating to wealth has been found. If some genes corresponded to earnings, it would have a geographic origin and concentration as do eye color, lactose tolerance, epicanthic folds, malaria- resistance/cycle-cell etc. Yet every region has a few rich people and many poor. In fact, regions change in wealth over time: nations like Egypt were rich for millennia while Scandinavia and Japan were poor. This does not happen with genes eg blue eyes don't emerge and disappear over millennia at random around the world. All of the above points to wealth acquisition as a essentially a purely behavioral activity. Even if there were any genetic components, they would be negligible to the point of being undetectable. Pardon me for summaries rather than finding dozens of links but here is one readable citation: [https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn11711-smarter- people-...](https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn11711-smarter-people-are- no-better-off/) ~~~ haihaibye >> rich tend to succeed and poor tend to fail regardless of whether the grab the marshmallow or not. We were talking about intelligence. The marshmallow test measures delayed gratification. >> If intelligence corresponds to wealth, we would expect Nobel prize winners and widely cited scientist to be the richest people. It's a correlation - so we'd expect them to be richer than average, and richer on average than dumber scientists. They are - you can sell a Nobel prize for $5M. >> Rich people .. scattered through the world .. history and thus have maximum genetic difference. They can not reasonably share a common gene that skips over millions of people between them. ... no gene correlating to wealth has been found. ... I am not proposing "wealth" genes - how ridiculous. It would be trivial though, just find a richer ethnic group and use their novel variants. That doesn't prove causality, though. Intelligence is a highly polygenic trait, there are probably thousands of variants involved. But here's a simpler model - inheriting a high IQ is partly due to a lack of damaging variants. There are plenty of variants associated with intellectual disability, go search OMIM. Inheriting one of them leads to not being able to hold down a job, and thus lower income. There you go - inherited intellectual disability - an exact genetic link to wealth acquisition (or lack thereof). >> [https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn11711-smarter- people-...](https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn11711-smarter-people-are- no-better-off/) >> controlled for other factors – such as divorce, years spent in school, type of work and inheritance I wish I had a dollar for every social science paper confounded by genetics! Imagine wealth and IQ are perfectly linked and 100% heritable. Wouldn't controlling for inherited wealth completely wipe away the signal? For divorce - delayed gratification seems to be inherited - the original marshmallow experiment showed this: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_marshmallow_experimen...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_marshmallow_experiment#Origins) "Absence of the father was prevalent in the African-descent group but occurred only once in the East Indian group, and this variable showed the strongest link to delay of gratification, with children from intact families showing superior ability to delay." ~~~ TomMckenny >and richer on average than dumber scientists ...but not the richest of all people. Nor do the richest people in the world tend to be great scientist, mathematicians, chess players, writers etc. Because intelligence can only shuffle you around in the class you inherit but only luck will get you out of it. Children born to carpenters will tend to become good carpenters because they get connections, learn skill and are given tools by their parents not because they are inheriting more intelligence than someone just breaking in to carpentry. Children born to massive landlords will be landlords because they inherit the estate not because they are smarter than people wanting to become landlords with no cash. >Wouldn't controlling for inherited wealth completely wipe away the signal? You need to measure delta in wealth so in fact you _must_ control for wealth. Otherwise a rich kid who looses half his inheritance will be counted more successful than a poor kid who doubles his. >just find a richer ethnic group I point out above why this is impossible. If, for some reason, you decide this moment in history was the one to make the judgment on, you would find that the richest countries are also the most progressive and have the largest social safety nets. Are we going to claim the intelligence correlates to progressive politics and the wisdom of social safety nets as much as wealth? >The marshmallow test measures delayed gratification. And yet when it was believed to predict future wealth, it was said delayed gratification _was_ intelligence. >the original marshmallow experiment showed... The article explains why the original test was fundamentally flawed. For one reason, because it only had 90 subject rather than 900 ~~~ haihaibye > ..but not the richest of all people. I said a correlation, not a correlation of 1.0 Jeff Bezos, Warren Buffet, Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg etc are all very smart. Top 1% smart or better. I don't think that's a coincidence. >> Nor do the richest people in the world tend to be great scientist, mathematicians, chess players, writers etc. They dedicated their time and efforts to moneymaking rather than these pursuits. Same as chess skills may correlate with mathematical ability but to be word class in either you have to dedicate your time to only one. >> Because intelligence can only shuffle you around in the class you inherit but only luck will get you out of it. What about scholarships? My Granfather repaired fences and shot kangaroos, my mum got top marks in school and won a scholarship, now I'm a scientist. > point out above why this is impossible. If, for some reason, you decide this > moment in history was the one to make the judgment on Not what the data shows: [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3903117/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3903117/) In the 60s China and Korea were African level poor, but they had high IQs. Is it a coincidence where smart phones are being built now? > because it only had 90 subject rather than 900 A replication with much larger numbers found the effect, but with smaller magnitude. That's not bad. ~~~ TomMckenny >What about scholarships? I believe scholarships are a nearly perfect indicator of intelligence. Self motivation toward education is certainly another. These things allow people to move from one part of their class to another. And by class I don't mean the ever shifting terms politicians use, I mean the very specific meaning when the term was coined: those who must work to survive vs those born never needing to. >Jeff Bezos, Warren Buffet, Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg 1% of the population is in the top 1% of intelligence. 0.02% of the population are billionaires. Clearly intelligence is a trivial factor for immense wealth. For that list, some of the people you cite as smart were born to wealthy parents, others not. If we assume[1] they are intellectually in the top 1%, then this very list shows no correlation between inherited wealth and inherited brains. Since the claim is that the rich pass down smart genes, we should look look at the top hereditary billionaires in the world and see if there is any evidence that they are all in the top 1% intellectually. Is Prince Alwaleed of Saudi Arabia super smart? How about Liliane Bettencourt, who does not even have hand in the business which makes her a billionaire. Or Georg Schaeffler who drove the company he inherited deeply in to debt. How about the wife of Steve Jobs. Most relevant would be those who have been ultra rich for generations and only married other rich people: is Prince Charles among the smartest people in the world? And the fact that rich Japanese adopt unrelated adults into the family who then run the business for the heirs. Obviously genes are irrelevant to wealth maintenance here. >In the 60s China and Korea were African level poor, but they had high IQs For that last several centuries, China's GDP was so low famines were a regular occurrence. Only in the last silver of history have they become rich. So obviously this has nothing to do with genetics but with changes to society both inside and outside China. ------ 5DFractalTetris The lesson that one should never take candy from strangers does not seem like an acceptable place to practice human experimentation, especially on children. ------ CM30 Makes me wonder what happens if the kid simply doesn't like eating marshmallows. Would that also be counted as them putting it off, or is the test set up in such a way that said people are counted out beforehand? Hell, it seems someone's taste in general may affect the results for any of these tests. Much easier to put off something you only sort of like rather than something you're obssessed with... ~~~ washadjeffmad Since there's nothing inherently appealing about marshmallows to children, an assortment of interesting looking treats could have been presented, and the children should have ranked them in terms of how much they wanted to try each. Then they could perform the test with each and the outcomes could be compared by the weighted values. They did the marshmallow test with me as a child, and I thought it was dumb because I didn't like marshmallows; of course I wasn't eager to eat one. When we got the reward, I gave mine away to a kid who ate theirs initially. Had it been a puzzle they asked us not to touch, it might have gone differently. It's a very subjective test and can easily underestimate the children's preferences. ------ wst_ If I am not mistaken article didn't mention kids age? Anyone knows? I assume above 3 (judging by paragraph about home environment.) The thing is, above certain age it would be very easy to get kids into a challenge and make them to wait. Not to mention that marshmallow may not be a treat for anyone. ------ sanj To make this relevant to the entrepreneurs: [https://medium.com/@micah/it-all- changes-when-the-founder-dr...](https://medium.com/@micah/it-all-changes-when- the-founder-drives-a-porsche-32ac25c713ad) ------ tankerslay How is the marshmallow test (or "The Boy Who Ate the Marshmallow") different from "The Boy Who Cried Wolf"? Both teach a lesson with a nugget of wisdom, the former about the perils of self-indulgence, the latter about the foolishness of sounding a false alarm. Both lessons are supported by numerous examples--far more than 90--that each of us has observed in our own lives. But one is presented as a self-contained fictional story, while the other is told as the result of an experiment that revealed some kind of natural law. Why is our culture so drawn to presentations of basic life lessons as if they were the results of scientific experimentation? It's as if we have some sort of self-consciousness about "believing in" fables that drives us towards the telling of "fables-as-science". ------ macromaniac >For them, daily life holds fewer guarantees: There might be food in the pantry today, but there might not be tomorrow, so there is a risk that comes with waiting. If food is scarce, wouldn't food hoarding be the rational action? ~~~ Applejinx That happens too, but sitting in a room looking at a marshmallow that's not yours as part of some weird test by adults that aren't trustworthy is NOT the same as having the marshmallow. You might reimagine the test as the 'adults lie and don't keep their promises' test. There's been times I'd absolutely snatch the marshmallow. Then it's _munch_ mine, good luck taking THAT away, adult ;) ------ gymshoes This is the first time I've read about this test and the correlation of willpower to being good at managing money looks like those theories that people share on social media but are just fake news. ------ tomohawk Interesting discussion related to developing self control in children: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBBPyCSJDEo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBBPyCSJDEo) ------ Izkata > evaluated according to a standard research measure that notes, for instance, > the number of books that researchers observed in the home and how responsive > mothers were to their children in the researchers’ presence Number of books? Seriously? This is the stupidest... Almost all the books in my childhood home belonged to me. My parents and one of my brothers never read for fun, and and my other brother only rarely. One of my friends was similar, his siblings didn't read almost at all (though I think he got most of his books from the library, so there were few in the house). Counting just the _number_ of books tells you almost nothing about any given individual family member. Someone, please, tell me this journalist is incorrectly simplifying the actual standard practice... ~~~ lisper > Counting just the number of books tells you almost nothing about any given > individual family member. It does if the number is zero (which is actually the case in one branch of my family). ~~~ nostrademons Not if there's a decent public library nearby... ~~~ lisper Fair enough. But in my family's case, there wasn't. They lived in the 'burbs. ------ tomglynch I wonder what other well known studies have incorrect conclusions ~~~ vixen99 Somewhat premature to conclude that this 900-person study is definitive. ~~~ nighthawk1 Agreed. I wish study replication was more gloried in science. I think there are many questionable studies out there that we take as fact. ~~~ tankerslay Is this field even about "science" per se? It seems more oriented towards fashioning just-so-stories that lend a scientific veneer to some piece of folk wisdom in order to generate a buzz. My own "experimentation" suggests that the character trait that predisposes one to bandy about pop allegories such as "marshmallow test" is a portentous sign in potential managers. ------ lkrubner About this: " _This new paper found that among kids whose mothers had a college degree, those who waited for a second marshmallow did no better in the long run—in terms of standardized test scores and mothers’ reports of their children’s behavior—than those who dug right in._ " Since "standardized test scores" tends to measure IQ, it seems this can be re- phrased as "those who did well on the will-power test did not necessarily do well on the IQ test, and vice versa." In other words, raw will-power is not correlated with raw IQ. Which I think I already knew? I've certainly known some athletes who were probably not as smart as me, but who definitely had more will-power than me. ~~~ thegabez Now that I think about it how is athleticism not considered a parameter of IQ? If you can learn to shoot a basketball 10x faster and with more accuracy than me, isn't your brain learning faster than mine? ~~~ reitanqild Because IQ is a very specific thing. It doesn't mean you know a lot or are good at high school maths. IIRC an _ideal_ IQ test would be something you could take even if you can't read and haven't learned maths and it will tell you something about your general problem solving skills. And as we all know, people can be excellent problem solvers without being very athletic at all, so mixing that into the score would actually make it less useful. ~~~ thegabez You don't need to know how to read or know math to shoot a basketball and the problem is well defined. Put ball through hoop. ~~~ yitosda Someone who in principle has a very high "Athletic Quotient" may be relatively bad at this depending on how many times they've attempted it before the test. A good AQ test would hopefully control for this? Though my understanding is that IQ doesn't control very well for practice either. It's a hard problem. ------ neves I've read so much articles about the Mashmallow test that to make this the front news in every paper would be a service for society. ------ sonnyblarney With these kinds of things, I wonder how well we can extrapolate marshmallows to anything else in life. ------ Smaug123 I found the following post [1] to make a very compelling argument that the Marshmallow test isn't really testing for the ability to defer gratification, but for a "generalised ability/desire to take and pass tests" (manifesting itself here as the desire to pass the Marshmallow test). The post argues that this is an underrecognised character trait which can predict success in today's Western test-oriented world. Certainly I personally possess this trait in spades, and my personal history is full of instances where this trait was extremely useful to me. Assuming the trait is either heritable or culturally imbued (and intuitively it seems very likely that at least one of those is true), it makes sense that rich parents are more likely to have children who are either natively or culturally high in The Desire To Pass Tests: indeed, our society heavily rewards people who have TDTPT, so rich parents are more likely to be high in TDTPT and therefore are more likely to have genetically or culturally passed it to their children. [1]: [https://hotelconcierge.tumblr.com/post/113360634364/the- stan...](https://hotelconcierge.tumblr.com/post/113360634364/the-stanford- marshmallow-prison-experiment) ~~~ thaumasiotes > Certainly I personally possess this trait in spades, and my personal history > is full of instances where this trait was extremely useful to me. I love taking tests. Sadly, this has essentially never been any use. ~~~ Smaug123 Two immediate ways spring to mind, but it's a fundamental feature of my nature and I feel its influence in many of the things I do. * Liking (and therefore being good at) taking tests was useful in getting me into Cambridge, for example, and then in doing well at Cambridge. * I can feel The Desire To Pass Tests unfolding within me during interviews, like Harry James Potter-Evans-Verres's dark side, and it definitely helps: my Test-Taker enjoys interviews, however scared I might be of them, so I just let the Test-Taker take the interview instead of me. ~~~ jakobegger I absolutely hated taking tests (despite being good at it), and it's the reason why I dropped out of grad school and started a business. Everything in academia seemed to be a never ending series of tests: first literal tests and exams, later talk proposals and article submissions and applications for scholarships or grants... Academia seemed like one test after another, with no end in sight. At some point I just couldn't stand the feeling of other people judging me any more. I really liked university, I liked all those smart people, the work seemed interesting, but I just didn't want to be tested any more. Being self-employed means I no longer need to take tests. (I probably couldn't start a "startup" either, since applying for investments would be like taking a test as well) ------ overcast I'd wait the 15 minutes, get two, and trade them for something better than a crummy marshmallow. ------ jstewartmobile Oh psychology! What would coastal mags for pseudointellectuals do without you? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ~~~ dang Please don't post unsubstantive comments here. ~~~ jstewartmobile So expressing that psychology is more of a controversy mill than a science is unsubstantive? Got it! I will keep that unorthodox opinion to myself until even more of their papers don't replicate. ~~~ dang It's simple: we're looking for thoughtful conversation. We don't much care about your opinions, but if you express them in flamebaity or shallow ways, we'll ask you to do better. Please do better. ------ Grue3 You'd expect poor kids to be good at self control (they're used to not be fed every 15 minutes) while rich kids being spoiled and not caring for an extra marshmallow. ~~~ billner Someone who's hungry has less will power than someone who's well fed. ~~~ Grue3 Consider the following experiments: \- a poor man and a rich man are going to work when they each see a dollar coin on a sidewalk. Which of them would bother to pick it up? \- a poor man and a rich man are both drunk after spending a night at the bar. Which one would take a $50 taxi home, and which one will take a bus for $5 (you have to wait 15 minutes for a bus). \- a poor man and a rich man are both hungry and walk by a restaurant for rich people. It would take an extra 15 minutes to walk to a crappy diner for poor people, but a lunch costs 5x cheaper there. Where would each man dine? ~~~ imjustsaying >sidewalk coin Rich man would pick it up, that's $720/hour if it takes 5 seconds. It's things like that that make you rich. Poor guy would probably pick it up too unless he's paranoid people will think he's poor. >bus Again looks like huge earnings per hour. He'll take the bus in this example unless he has something very lucrative that he's missing out on, but he's drunk so that's very unlikely. >restaurant Depends on the cost of the different places. It might not be worth the time to walk to the other place if the difference isn't great. If he's on a weekday lunchbreak, his time might be better spent elsewhere. Same thing for the poor guy. ~~~ Grue3 You're assuming all rich people are pennypinchers like Warren Buffet. In reality most rich people are rich because they were born into a rich family and had the ideal opportunities to win at life from the start. The fact that in reality you won't see rich people riding buses or picking up coins on the street just shows that it's not about making most money per hour. And in marshmallow test specifically you don't have kids who are good at business and kids who are bad at business. You have kids of rich parents and kids of poor parents. The fact that the former are supposed to act like pennypinchers, despite not ever having to worry about money or being fed seems counterintuitive to me. ~~~ billner If you define rich as the top 1% than yes it might be from inheritance but studies I've seen say over 80% of millionaires are self-made and didn't grow up wealthy. Your whole premise is contradicted by the study. ------ gaius Our cats have never in their lives had to worry about food, yet they still become anxious around mealtimes. That suggests that it is trait common to all mammals regardless of their "wealth". ~~~ popnroll You think the behavior of your cats represent the mammal population? ~~~ gaius Yes, it’s called sampling ~~~ popnroll Your cats are an unrepresentative sample of the mammal population, your conclusion is biased. ~~~ gaius That’s harsh, dude ------ amelius Developers also routinely fail the Marshmallow test: Should I develop for iOS, make a quick buck but give Apple more control over my work, and contribute to the growth of the platform, leading to a vicious cycle of control of Apple over developers? ... OR ... Should I develop applications in a platform-independent way, but perhaps with slower returns? ~~~ geofft But they're not "failing" the test. If you take so long to develop the software that you run out of funding, you're worse off than having written the iOS-only code. You're only guaranteed to have time to develop things right if you have more than enough personal funds and no investors breathing down your throat, i.e., if you're rich. The marshmallow test just measures richness. Everyone else needs to ship _something_ in three months for Demo Day.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ask HN: Page Layout Tools in 2020 - jason_slack I’m crazily enough planning to start a print publication.<p>I used to use Quark XPress.<p>InDesign is expensive.<p>Frame maker RIP<p>What options are available. Mac OS preferred. Open source project I could patch bugs for OK too. Any suggestion welcome. TeX? ====== jonpalmisc If you’re going for paid, Affinity Publisher is great software, and is only $50 for a license. I’ve used it and enjoyed it. If you like it, you can snag the other programs in the Affinity as well for $50 each. For open source, there is Scribus. I’ve never used it personally but I’ve heard good things. You could also try LaTeX or ConTeXt, the latter if your design is going to be more complicated. ~~~ jason_slack Thank you. I have been looking at Scribus	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Show HN: Drag and drop so simple it hurts - bevacqua https://github.com/bevacqua/dragula ====== avalaunch This looks cool and works great on desktop. Unfortunately on mobile (iPhone 6 Plus, 8.3, Safari browser) it's very buggy. In the third example, moving an item anywhere (including in the container, even right back where you selected it) will delete it. In the fourth example, you can't move any of the items at all. They immediately snap back to where they started. It's a great start though.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Inside AT&T’s 83 GB/hour mobile cell tower - bitmover http://9to5mac.com/2013/05/19/inside-atts-83gbhour-mobile-cell-tower-or-why-your-iphone-no-longer-drops-out-at-huge-events/ ====== Game_Ender To convert to more normal units, that is about 189 Mbits/second. Which sounds a little less impressive considering the peak 4G speed is supposed to be 100 Mbit/second. ~~~ skyebook I thought 83 GB/hr seemed like not much capacity, and indeed that really isn't much. I've seen these units (and from other carriers as well, IIRC) before and figured they were bringing massive amounts of extra backhaul to spots with big events. I'm curious how these figures relate with what 'normal' towers have allocated. I've seen the rough 1 gbps figure before but don't know how accurate that is. ~~~ jauer 1Gbps assumes the tower has fiber. Since this was a temporary event we can assume they don't have fiber available, that and the article illustration shows a microwave backhaul. Standard microwave backhaul in a licensed band typically tops out around 263Mbps as that's what you get with 256QAM in 40Mhz of spectrum. ~~~ parimm A lot of operators are switching to higher frequency bands for their backhauls, I see a lot of Ubiquity airfibers popping up here in India. Airfibers are 800mbps full duplex ~~~ jauer What kind of distances are they pushing them to? AirFiber radios (I'm quite fond of mine) and other 24Ghz, 60Ghz, and 80Ghz radios have severe rain fade so you need to keep the distance down to one or two miles unless you feel lucky. Now find a cell tower in that distance with fiber and available mounting space. I suppose that isn't a big problem in a more densely populated area like southern California, but still more challenging than parking a 11Ghz dish on a rooftop somewhere within 14 mile or so. From what I've heard most carrier interest in high frequency bands is for links going a few city blocks to connect micropops back to a area hub site. That kind of caution with fade margin is more in line of what I'd expect out of at&t or a similar provider. ~~~ parimm I'm pretty sure that the distances are under 10 Km or 6 miles. ------ rgbrenner So light on details.. could have mistaken it for a press release. And more amazing, they managed to get some of that wrong. In their graphic, they mislabeled the mobile command post as H, and G in the key... and "AT&T’s network is about 80% iPhones" then link to an article about _smartphone_ sales in _Q4 of 2012_ ~~~ w1ntermute > could have mistaken it for a press release I tend to avoid articles on any 3rd party sites with the word "Mac" or "Apple" in their domain names for this exact reason. The effects of the RDF are just too transparent. ~~~ duaneb The only thing they're good for is reporting (the existence of) rumors. ------ hncommenter13 I ran a mobile gaming conference for about 250 people in a major city back when AT&T was the only game in town for the iPhone (~2009). Without calling us or us reaching out to them, AT&T contacted the venue and installed a micro- cell--free of charge--to ensure good coverage throughout the day. Say what you want about the network or the company, but I was impressed. (It probably didn't hurt that we had some folks from Apple on the attendee list.) ~~~ tumblen I help run a conference in Portland, OR and would love to look into this further. Do you have any contacts still or any idea who I could get in touch with to get more information? Thanks! ~~~ hncommenter13 I'm afraid I don't. We never actually found out from AT&T how this happened or who was responsible--someone got in touch with the venue manager and the next thing we knew, a micro-cell showed up. I'm told one can rent them (it was a small rack of equipment), but I'm guessing it's rather expensive. ------ Maven911 This is pretty surprising that AT&T engineers were the ones to design the antennas. It is usually vendors such as Nokia-Siemens, Alcaltel-Lucent or Ericsson that provide the equipment and that have the antenna/radio know-how while on the operator side the engineers there focus more on optimization and RF planning, rather then the design. ~~~ tfe If you watch the video of the two AT&T engineers, they basically say that they just had the idea; their (unnamed) vendor actually did the work to see if it was feasible and designed the antenna. ------ quackerhacker I have an unlimited ipad data plan on AT&T, and for 1 month straight, I streamed video constantly just to test if they throttled or capped Unlimited Ipad plans. 128GB in 1 month and I was still getting 50+down/15up. Evidence: My twitter images twitter.com/MichaelLargent ~~~ shawnz Leeching 128GB would only take 6 hours at the speeds you describe. I would certainly hope that they don't cap you after a period that could be as short as 6 hours! ~~~ quackerhacker Well, I'm actually outside of the LTE area, so I ran my test on 4G HSPA+. The image for the speed test was to see if they throttled at the end of the month. Just to be clear...don't try this on a supposedly Unlimited iphone data plan, or straight talk unlimited...doesn't work lol. ~~~ delinka I'm not sure what any of this has to do with the math. You claim 128GB over a 50Mb connection. That's less than six hours of constant streaming. Unless you want to qualify it with "during the times AT&T actually provided reliable service," your numbers seem off. A lot. ~~~ cmsmith You're assuming that streaming video can provide data at the same rate as speedtest. In reality those numbers are nowhere close, and don't reflect the reliability of AT&T's service. ~~~ delinka I'm not assuming anything. I'm asking for clarity. ------ Matsta I've been researching something similar for a startup idea for a while now. There still a couple of problems that still haven't been addressed (or just aren't included in this article) 1\. 1 Cell site isn't enough to cover a densely populated area. Although this is running on 850mhz which is much lower than wifi at 2.4ghz, multiple cell sites are usually better than 1 big one. If their peak is only 189mbps, then it should be fine using cat6 cable, however your limited when for range as you will run in trouble if you run cable over 100m without a repeater or booster. The other option is to use fibre, which is rather expensive but it wouldn't be that bad for AT&T considering their size. 2\. Limited to the network beyond the cell towers. This is coming from experience being at large festivals like Coachella, but although you can get signal on your phone most of the time, sms is virtually useless since your txt's are delayed by 4-5 hours. You can make a call after about trying 10 times, but because of the noise, you can never hear what the other person is saying and vice versa. So unless they are running a local relay for text's and transferring calls, their network servers are the ones that need beefing up rather than the towers themselves. Now I'm guessing people are going to be using data more than anything, but in the past I've found 2g to be much more reliable (3g flatout did not work at the last festival, Big Day Out I was at). We found that Whatsapp became the most reliable way to communicate between our friends as your messages wouldn't get delayed for hours. ------ BadCRC what do the AT&T vans connect to? I assume that there is no landline available for them to hook into, so how are they providing service? my guess is satellites or communicating with other cell towers but the latter seems counterproductive as it would push a high load to a different cell tower. but if they used satellites, wouldn't there by high latency and bandwidth limits? ~~~ btgeekboy The image at the very top of the article mentions they have a microwave backhaul (see "E"), which I'm assuming goes to another ground location (i.e. a central office.) ~~~ quackerhacker Actually this makes better sense than what I was guessing about cell towers below. So, what I'm imagining is these temp towers will make sure that you can get connected. I think ATT is a tier 1 network, so your connection to whatever data center will probably get bonded directly to whatever ATT datacenter which has the fastest response (ping) to the content your connecting to...love to see a traceroute for comparison. ------ joosters Does anyone know if they do any local web caching? There's nothing mentioned, but you'd think that a small-ish transparent web cache would save them a lot of bandwidth. ------ nano111 Can you feel the heat when you sit next to this antenna? ~~~ ricardobeat In the ground probably not, but put your hand right in front of one of those dishes and you get some serious RF burn. ------ andymcsherry I was at this concert actually, and I have to see it was the most spectacular reception I've ever had an event.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
National Security Implications of Virtual Currency [pdf] - mrb http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_reports/RR1200/RR1231/RAND_RR1231.pdf ====== adrtessier From p.65: > Overall, resilient public cyber key terrain could prove a double-edged > sword: enabling DoD to project power, both in terms of information as well > as cyberspace operations, but also enabling enemies of the United States to > do the same, and with a lower barrier of entry than before. I think you could argue this is a bit what the government already thinks of the Tor Project, although they call it 'loosely decentralized'. I seriously whether or not politically we will actually head down this path; which each successive government I'm beginning to see the fear that cypherpunk-utopia, anarchocapitalist-style decentralization may bring to nation-states and the risks inherent to some citizens in that process. From a politician's (very misguided) view of laws solving problems, it's easy to smash the "resilient public cyber key terrain", while still getting the edge of the sword you want (allowing these technologies to provoke unrest in countries you don't like) - you pass laws that ruthlessly enforce the use of Tor et al on your own territory, run a lot of psychological operations against the use of those tools by your citizenry, and then spread the shit out of that same technology through covert channels to everywhere else in the world, for those ballsy enough to be "separatists" in their own countries. The politician will think that assuming a powerful security organization and steep enough penalties domestically, you can probably eke a net benefit out of the technology outside of your nation-state with little downsides within you own. This leads to a scary way of blunting the edge of the sword that a politician thinks could hurt them domestically, and I'm afraid that perhaps in some ways we're going down that path (RIPA 2000 is a good example of that, any type of forced-key-disclosure type of thing, or any type of key escrow and tying laws to requiring key escrow.) In the end it doesn't really work, but it does shed a lot more blood in the process. ------ olewhalehunter >Currently the most popular VC is Bitcoin not all virtual currency is "Virtual Currency" ~~~ imperialdrive I am curious, pls go on	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
OpenCL Rocks: Why You Care - eries http://chadaustin.me/2009/08/opencl-rocks-why-you-care/ ====== chasingsparks I'd love to play with OpenCL on my i7. Since no Intel implementation exists, I'll stick to CUDA on my Tesla. I am not sure learning OpenCL is a worthwhile investment yet. I am skeptical about the ability of OpenCL to run efficiently on a very heterogeneous devices. ...then again...I suppose people said the same thing about OpenGL. ------ stse I would really like to see hardware acceleration of encryption, especially for tls/ssl and full disk encryption. ~~~ siculars <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SSL_acceleration> ------ caffeine Is there a working implementation of this somewhere? I remember searching for it a while back and couldn't seem to find one. ~~~ chadaustin Yeah, I was playing with AMD's demos today. They're part of their SDK at [http://developer.amd.com/GPU/ATISTREAMSDKBETAPROGRAM/Pages/d...](http://developer.amd.com/GPU/ATISTREAMSDKBETAPROGRAM/Pages/default.aspx) You can use username "chadaustin" password "password" ------ ars Does it get compiled to all targets, or is there some sort of intermediate code that gets compiled at the end point?	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Firefox Changing Behavior of Ctrl+Tab in Latest Nightlies - superchink http://jboriss.wordpress.com/2008/07/16/control-tab-a-new-feature-for-firefox/ ====== superchink I was never a fan of "alternative" tab behavior in Visual Studio, and I'm not sure I like it in Firefox either. The saving grace is that the other keyboard shortcuts for changing tabs keep the original behavior, but still. It always feels like the tabs are a moving target when it cycles based on last viewed. ------ zacharye I like the behavior shown in this post. Currently however, I use Tab Catalog so ctrl + tab displays a visual representation of all open tabs in all FF instances. I think I may still prefer this as it makes it quick and easy to jump between FF windows seamlessly.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ask HN: How to grow after 6 years of work? - mtayseer I started my professional career more than 6 years ago. I started at a small company (less than 10 people). We were mainly a mobile development shop. I was known as 'polyglot guy' and 'Moving MSDN' working with the various technologies (C++, C#, Python, Java) on various platforms (Symbian, Windows CE, Windows, Java ME).<p>Then the company met a lot of management and financial problems. The manager made a lot of mistakes and later closed the company. This was very hard for me considering that I'm responsible for my mom & younger sisters after my father died. I worked there for 1.5 years.<p>Then I moved to another small company, working on ASP.net. I was able to learn it very fast & become productive with it, performing very well at the beginning & used my good points (learning fast & using various technologies well) but I met some problems when I was responsible for a whole project for the first time. We ran very late & the quality was very low. Adding to this that the company was really bad when it comes to collecting their money, it was financially unstable. I had to leave after 1.5 years, though I liked this company very much.<p>For the next 1.5 years I worked in 3 small companies, 6 months in each one. This was really a horrible period of my life. We were always overloaded with work, project scope was rapidly increasing with the same cost. We were working for 16 hours a day. We were treated badly. Everything I tried to do was not enough to save any company.<p>I didn't try to fight till the last possible moment. I had enough of small failing companies. I was convinced that to create a successful software project I should focus on management, not the technical side<p>I went to work in a large software company, not as a senior programmer (as I used to be) but outsourced to another big company as a technical project manager. I accepted this position for 3 reasons<p><pre><code> 1. It is financially stable 2. To enhance my communication & management skills 3. This was the only way to grow </code></pre> Contrary to my previous positions, I had manage many small interdependent tasks. I wasn't good at doing this. I slipped the deadline most of the time. I have to ask everyone at each step multiple times to do anything. All the time. I'm always blamed because I'm responsible. What makes me angry is that it's late because of somebody else. The only parts that went well were the parts that I made myself, or any tool that I made to automate a manual process. I'm much slower than any other colleage in my team & the whole company, even people who are much younger than me<p>After sometime I knew that I'm not good at this. I asked my mother company to return to their HQ and work on a more technical position, but they said there isn't a vacant place for me. Later I asked for a communication skills many times, which I got finally.<p>I don't know how to grow in my career. I don't want to work on management, but I alsp want to feel that my work is valuable & affecting the company positively. Here in Egypt the only way to grow is to go the management path.<p>I also want to work with Python. All the companies here either use C#, Java, C++ or PHP. ====== samikc Halfway in your writing I was thinking this guy must be from India. But no you are from Egypt. Okay its the same story there also. Let me share my story here. I am at the same level of experience as you are 6 and half years into software. I started in a big software service shop in India. Worked for amazing clients (I cannot name them here). Some of the technology that I have worked on - Java, Lisp (yep got paid for working in common lisp), C/C++, Hadoop, JavaScript, etc. After working for 4 years I decided to move on. But I got Job in one of the news companies. Worked there for more that 1.5 years in (C# and Java). Now working in a banking product based company. After all these years (not that much though), I have come to the conclusion that - you need to be a techie to survive software industry. I have defined growth as: learn a new language every 6 months. Do something extra like open source. I know, I may not get hefty pay packets like the managers in India but I have chosen this path. I am happy with that. For you I believe you have identified your areas for improvement. You just need to think deep why the schedule failed? Find and read some books Mythical Man Month and Peopleware. Chances are that people have already been there and done that - so learn from them and try to adapt and apply in your case. Moreover, _before you do anything else_ just ask yourself what do you really want to be - a manager or a techie. Once you have the answer get going with that flow. ~~~ addhen I agree. First identify what you really want to be and go on that route. Being technically inclined, will definitely make you earn more money and respect than management. Me think :-) You can't do both, trust me. ------ amorphid It sounds like you have a grasp of the big picture and are finding it difficult fit into corporate life. One option is to build your own pyramid, er, company.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Airliner Repair, 24/7 (2008) - wallflower https://www.airspacemag.com/flight-today/airliner-repair-247-9974457/?all ====== jacquesm I wrote about another company in the aerospace industry that serves a niche, the people that deal with crashes: [https://jacquesmattheij.com/a-company-you-have-never- heard-o...](https://jacquesmattheij.com/a-company-you-have-never-heard-of/) ~~~ karambahh I am surprised by your comment: "After a year I still haven’t found a way to adapt their model to the IT world" I have worked in "disaster recovery" modes within a larger group of companies (think "Berkshire Hathaway" large), where we were basically meeting regularly to discuss opportunities, new findings and, above all, knew each other phone numbers & area of expertises. There were basically no issues wtr to the business model, as we were all owned by the same company and when were working in "commando/disaster mode" shit had hit the fan furiously enough for noone to care about the costs. That may have simplified the things a great deal... To me, Kenyon (and a few other players in their fields) is nothing more than an on-call, dependable team of experts with pre-set rates and a yearly fee for availability. I know for a fact that companies dealing in IT security do have such contracts (there's been numerous articles in the press about the Maersk disaster a few months/years back) and would expect that services similar for every aspects of IT ("our billing system has been offline for the past 13 hours", "our main DC has just been destroyed by an earthquake" and so on...)? What have been the blockers you stumbled upon? ~~~ jacquesm The fact that range of downsides is pretty much unlimited, and that customers are unwilling to recognize that until the moment arrives. In the airline business crashes are a statistical thing, but in IT everybody seems to think that disasters only happen to other operators. ~~~ karambahh You're in fact absolutely right. I've had countless encounters with C-level execs who could recognize that if theur point of sales software was down, it meant a loss of x M€/day, or that if this SCADA system crashed it meant casualties within the work force. They could be rational enough to attach a price tag to these events Despite this, it always went back to "yeah but last time my computer crashed, little Timmy fixed it, it's a no brainer, and my IT director has these things called backups". The same people have contingency plans for anything non digital (including services like Blackwater guys or kenyon and so on), but digital has "no real consequences". I hoped the Maersk disaster of last year would lead to a change of mind, but unfortunately we're not there yet. ------ gmac _“We’ve literally had passengers with tickets in their hands looking out the window of the gate at us as we were boxing up our equipment to leave”_ I do hope this is only after minor repairs, and that after taking apart and reassembling an airframe the plane first goes up and comes down again with only a test pilot/crew. ~~~ jonah I boarded an international flight (KLM to AMS) once and we taxied out and lined up for takeoff. The pilot then came on and said there was a mechanical issue and we'd have to go back to the gate. We then sat on the plane for several hours while a crew (replaced\|repaired) the APU. It was pretty disconcerting to be sitting there and hearing the drilling and grinding emanating from the hold and reverberating throughout the plane. This was in 2000, so my memory is a bit vague but I do recall taxing out at one point, pushing up the power and then powering back down and returning to the gate for more work. When the repairs were finally done, we immediately took off and made it across the Atlantic safely. It was one of the stranger air travel experiences I've had. ~~~ GhettoMaestro I’d suspect a lot of those change and go scenarios are backup/redundancy failure. Probably could have made it on a single, but thank god we have regulations saying hell no. ------ 9nGQluzmnq3M The Delhi accident mentioned appears to be this: [https://aviation- safety.net/database/record.php?id=19880724-...](https://aviation- safety.net/database/record.php?id=19880724-0) ~~~ unixhero Great database! Thanks. ------ yread > I suggested that future airliners made of advanced impact-resistant > materials might never become tomorrow’s AOGs, Bruce Rund had a prediction of > his own. “Somebody will figure out a way.” Definitely, like this 787 repair [https://www.seattletimes.com/business/ethiopian-787-flying-a...](https://www.seattletimes.com/business/ethiopian-787-flying- again-after-secretive-repair-of-fire-damage/)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
A startup is filling SF's empty luxury rentals - derwiki http://www.sfgate.com/realestate/article/Startup-is-quietly-packing-SF-s-empty-luxury-11039436.php ====== thedarkginger Maybe I am reading into this but I feel like the author makes this sound nefarious and really uncommon. When I was moving to the South Bay and had only two weeks to figure out my plan, can't tell you how many somewhat affordable room rentals in non-luxury apartments had crazier setups. Some of my favorites: 1\. Spacious open room with bed (it was someone's garage with a sheet down and a mattress on top of the concrete) 2\. Pretty common: nice place but you were not allowed to use the kitchen 3\. Converted Living Room (no joke, the photo was a twin bed in a living room with Office Depot boxes to create a divider) So yeah, I get why someone would share a room in exchange for having some amenities. ~~~ John23832 Number 2 always stuck out to me on rental listings... Why would I want to live somewhere where I couldn't use a vital function of a home/shelter? ~~~ aianus It makes me angry that I have to pay for a kitchen by law (if I rent or buy a whole 'dwelling'), despite never cooking. Different strokes. ~~~ teh_klev I honestly can't tell if you're joking or not :/ ~~~ CamelCaseName Would you be happy if you had to pay for a toolshed by law? Yes, you have to keep your grass short, but why do you need to pay for a toolshed to store your lawn mower when you might just want to hire someone instead and not waste time? You don't need a kitchen any more than you need a toolshed, and it sucks to be forced to pay for something you don't use, especially when every inch costs you. ~~~ crystalPalace Some people have unique situations and do not need the use of a kitchen at all. My diet consists entirely of bottled Soylent and protein bars. I never need to cook or utilize any other functions provided by a kitchen. ~~~ teh_klev I reckon the number of folks who claim never to have any need of a kitchen is probably a statistical rounding error, well maybe only slightly more if SF. But good luck trying to flog your flat or house to the next potential owner when you decided to rip out the worktops, hob etc to re-purpose the kitchen for some other non-food activity. I thought I'd heard it all regarding peculiar habitation behaviours until this sub-thread. ~~~ aianus If it's going to be so hard to flog anyways then why does government feel the need to mandate kitchens? Sounds like the free market should take care of it. ------ closeparen > market glut of dense, expensive housing. Since the beginning of 2015, nearly > 22,000 units have been built or approved in San Francisco (excluding the > massive Candlestick Point development). Of these, 19,500—89 percent—are > “above moderate,” meaning they can likely only be afforded by individuals > making more than $90,000 a year. “We are in the midst of the biggest > apartment-building boom since World War II,” says Patrick Carlisle, chief > market analyst at the Paragon Real Estate Group. The author insinuating that enough housing has already been built, or that building doesn't bring rents down, is pretty rage-inducing. How many new _people_ have started seeking housing in San Francisco since 2015? I'm going to guess it's more like 200,000. ~~~ falsedan 200k in the Bay, maybe. SF city population is 800k-odd, no way there's 25% churn in two years… The message I got was that the new housing is aimed at top of market when mid & low end is where it's really needed. ~~~ ufo That said, if someone moves from an older (and therefore cheaper) apartment into one of the new and expensive apartments it frees up some mid&low end housing. ~~~ seanp2k2 Most rent-control laws allow re-pricing to market prices when someone moves out, so someone moving out doesn't typically open up that same price point. You end up with situations where your next-door neighbor is paying half as much for the same apartment. Property owners and real estate developers aren't going to price units lower out of the goodness of their hearts, or due to "supply and demand"...they're happy to let $3k/month 1bedrooms sit empty until some sucker comes along to pay their ransom. By colluding to create a situation where one can't get a studio below $2600/month in SF proper, they can ensure slow but steady growth. It'd be a great experiment if someone had the cash to do it: open an apartment tower with units priced much closer to their actual cost in SF. It'd probably be around 30% of what they currently go for. ~~~ m0llusk No they are not happy. This is why there are deals on apartments in many buildings with vacancies. A great example of this is the big "L7" complex that just started renting the first finished units at 8th and Harrison. Those studios are advertised as $3000/mo but with two free months now given to those who lease for a year which means they are actually $2500/mo units. This kind of gaming is going on all over the market and there will probably be some property owners slash bag holders selling off assets and being restructured in order to get through this. Much of the recent construction was based on the idea that the market could support any amount of luxury units that were built. The current slump is testing that. ------ gmarx So they are building too much luxury housing which normally would cause prices to go down but fortunately a startup is making it easier to pack people in like college students or illegal migrants? Wonderbar. If I rented a "luxury" apartment by myself and found I was living next door to 5-10 people crammed into one place I'd be pretty angry. ~~~ galdosdi Why the heck would that make you angry? What's it to ya? ~~~ JimboOmega So they overuse the shared resources - the other poster mentioned elevators, but also gym, parking, etc etc. But also the more people, the higher the odds that there's one of them that just has to do whatever obnoxious thing - like smoke, make noise at all hours, etc etc. Nobody agrees on whose responsibility taking out the trash it is so it piles up and smells. Vetting can reduce but not eliminate that. Nobody wants to be next to the "Frat apartment" that is always partying at 2AM on a weeknight. ~~~ galdosdi Thanks for explaining, I didn't even think of shared resources since I've never lived in such a place (and find the idea odd -- wouldn't it be safer, providing more choice, NOT to get all your services from one provider?) Shouldn't a luxury place have good walls in place to avoid noise though? Seems like a luxury place that doesn't do this is kind of a scam. ~~~ JimboOmega Things like elevators and hallways are really pretty basic, and not subject to choice. But then, many people choose to live in detached houses so they don't have to rely on cooperating with neighbors for anything (I guess there are always shared civic resources, like water/sewer/streets, but you get the idea). I honestly don't know when it comes to walls. I've asked at a bunch of places and the answer seems to be a variant of "they're normal, I guess?" Your neighbors having a small house party with ~10 people over, a few drinks, some music is one thing. It's when it becomes very big and/or intoxicated event that it becomes a huge pain. People barfing in the stairwells, physically running into the walls, ringing the neighbor's doorbell at 2am because they can't figure out where they're going (or need to lean on it to keep from collapsing). My last apartment was next to a perpetual AirBnB where these kind of things were sometimes a problem (probably < 5 % of the tenants, but 1 out of 20 nights of noise at all hours still sucks) My current apartment does not have these issues. I still have the sirens and motorcycles of a very busy street to deal with, but earplugs deal with that well enough to leave the windows open at night. ------ atria Interesting. It looks like they are not subletting/subleasing, but working with property management companies to sign up tenants. They are basically offering a service to match tenants and collect payment without any risk of dealing with roomate issues. The tenants sign a lease directly with the property management company. The are probably "quiet" about it because they don't want property managers to do it themselves. I looked at one apartment complext LSeven. The floorplan 2bd/2ba goes for $4,683, but HomeShare is probably collecting $6,300 per month on that unit. I had roomates in college. I would never, ever do that ever again. I had one roomate who would masterbate at night on the couch in the living room, and seemed to think it was acceptable behavior. Had another one who would come in after 2 am strip down and fall asleep on the couch in his whitey-tighty underwear while watching ESPN. I've had to kick out roomates that stopped paying rent. I had a roomate break our lease so he could move in with his ex-girlfriend so he could try to save their relationship -- and that didn't work out so well for him. ~~~ csomar Seems to me like you didn't vet your roommates carefully. I have had one roommate in my whole life (maybe lived together for 6 months). I was a bit of a pain in his ass as I was obsessing a lot over cleanliness of the place but we managed quite well. We had guests come over, parties, bring GF/Date and allocate time for the other guy to have sex (it was a studio). So I think it can be managed, you just need to vet carefully and be strict. ------ gojomo Skyscrapers bloom in America Cadillacs zoom in America Industry boom in America 12 to a room in America `America`, West Side Story, 1961 [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qy6wo2wpT2k&feature=youtu.be...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qy6wo2wpT2k&feature=youtu.be&t=2m20s) ------ friedman23 The only thing luxurious about some of these apartments is that they cost a lot and sometimes have air conditioning and heating. ~~~ falsedan > _sometimes have air conditioning and heating_ For SF, having both _is_ a luxury! ~~~ friedman23 Yes but in the rest of the US it isn't ~~~ falsedan That's grand pal ~~~ friedman23 What? Don't like being told your city is screwed up? ------ hardtke A lot of these new buildings are in less desirable neighborhoods. SOMA is desirable from a convenience to freeways and work standpoint, but it does not have the charm of the more established neighborhoods. I wonder if some of the glut is simply that the new housing is in areas where high end renters don't want to live. ~~~ Hydraulix989 Everything (restaurants) closes at 4 PM too in SOMA because people go to SOMA to work but don't live there. ------ johan_larson I think the startup industry in SF is, in its own odd sort of way, sending a clear message to young people: "Get married." You can share an apartment, and you don't need separate bedrooms. ~~~ paulddraper And the tax incentives! ------ stale2002 I was looking into homeshare a while ago, and it is a reasonable deal. They take spacious 2 bedroom apartments and put 3-5 people in them, by converting the living room. (currently I am living in a 2 bedroom with 3 people in it, via Craigslist . ) It is a moderately better situation than living in a college dorm. So the article is way overblown with its talk of "giving up privacy". ~~~ user5994461 > It is a moderately better situation than living in a college dorm. That is not a good situation by any standard. Maybe that's okay when you're a broke 20 yo student with no income. ~~~ stale2002 Basically everyone I know in the bay area lives with a roommate, and these are well paid software engineers. Renting out the living room of your apartment is usually a pretty good deal, and is perfectly normal. Sure, if you start to talk about hacker house levels of bad, that sucks. But this is NOT that. ~~~ kspaans Is it legal though? Both according to your lease and according to occupancy laws? (Referring to over-occupancy by renting out living rooms and/or multiple people per room.) ~~~ stale2002 Yes it is legal. The apartment complex that I am living in allows 5 people to a 2 person bedroom, and I've seen a couple groups do that. Renting out the living room or even putting 2 people to a room is almost always legal. Over occupancy laws only come into play in completely ridiculous situations like 3 people to a room and up. ~~~ almost_usual "Unapproved subtenant (approval can be either stated or implied) is the only person still remaining in the unit (subtenant holding over)" Here is a list of just causes for eviction in San Francisco. [https://www.sftu.org/justcauses/](https://www.sftu.org/justcauses/) ~~~ stale2002 They are not unapproved though. The way these things work is that the apartment complex puts you on the lease! That is by definition approved. ------ yonran That so-called “luxury” apartments end up getting rented to students and entry-level workers (even if they have to share) should be celebrated, not mocked or viewed with suspicion. Hopefully, it will be a sign that developers will start to target the broader market in earnest in the near future. But the article spins it as some nefarious plot, and anti-displacement groups (of the supply and demand denier type) share it cynically without even realizing that it is positive news[1] [1] [https://www.facebook.com/Vanishingsf/posts/647239248801218](https://www.facebook.com/Vanishingsf/posts/647239248801218) ------ altonzheng I've noticed the huge wave of new luxury apartments being completed. I wonder why they don't lower the rental prices instead of partnering with HomeShare. ~~~ falsedan I guess, because they get more money this way. ------ wankerrific I thought building tons of apartments and kicking people out of stable living situations was supposed to decrease rents. Apparently the investors/builders have a price floor they cant go under else the situation becomes financially unviable. Also - it would appear that several of these new builds are having a tough time filling units at luxury prices. Who knew?! I thought if we just kept building the market fairy would magically lower prices everywhere. ~~~ beatpanda Also, I'd love to hear more about how building a high rise on what used to be a parking lot involves "kicking people out of stable living situations" ~~~ yonran Indeed, _none_ of the new buildings that Homeshare advertises displaced any residences. It’s a common misconception that construction in San Francisco displaces housing. It was true during Redevelopment, but it is not the case with the past couple decades of construction. • 1222 Harrison St was a bus depot[1] • 340 Fremont St used to be a few “institutional” buildings including the “Seafarer’s Union” building[2][3] • 1010 16th St aka Daggett Project was a paint factory[4] • 1333 Powell St, Emeryville aka Parkside Project was a couple office buildings and large parking lots[5] [1] [http://www.socketsite.com/archives/2012/12/the_massive_plans...](http://www.socketsite.com/archives/2012/12/the_massive_plans_for_the_shortsited_soma_site_at_8th_a.html) [2] [http://www.socketsite.com/archives/2012/09/340_fremont_scoop...](http://www.socketsite.com/archives/2012/09/340_fremont_scoop_permits_pulled_for_400_foot_tower.html) [3] [http://sf- planning.org/sites/default/files/FileCenter/Docume...](http://sf- planning.org/sites/default/files/FileCenter/Documents/24-2000.1081E_Rincon_Hill_Plan_EIR_Part_1.pdf) [4] [http://oewd.org/daggett-project](http://oewd.org/daggett-project) [5] [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZkY04cvzUE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZkY04cvzUE) ------ angryasian How do they get around violating rental leases ? Are they essentially subletting ? ~~~ sushid It looks like they quietly make agreements with the corporate housing developers beforehand. They don't want the deal to be publicized since it's not good for their image. ------ QML This was one of the plans I had for housing next year as a college student. My friend had invited me to share the living room with another person in a 2-bedroom apartment that goes for $4400 a month; splitting the costs, we would've paid around $750 a person. The deal with the manager turned south, however, because he wanted to increase the rent. Now I'm aiming for a 1-bedroom apartment or studio to share with my brother that typically goes for $2000+. This is Berkeley we're talking about, so I can't imagine how crazy it is in San Francisco. ~~~ tsunamifury Hate to break it to you, but Berkeley is going to be more expensive to rent than SF. ~~~ closeparen Absolutely not. I pay $2500 for a 650sqft 1-bedroom in West Berkeley with a parking space. The fixtures are a little cheap, but it's 2001 construction in good shape with solid noise isolation, no pests, etc. The location is urban infill, so industrial, but safe, and similar apartment buildings are popping up around it. It's an obnoxiously long walk (or longer bus ride) to BART, but if you're willing to drive/Uber to a station, the location is fine. Last I checked, similar units in SF were running at least $3800. Yes, I could have a crappier apartment, or a shared apartment, or no parking, or several of the above, for a little less in SF. Berkeley is still my best option. If 2-3 of my peers decide to live in the same amount of space I claim for myself, then the price will rise until the only way I can afford to live here is by sharing with 2-3 people. So while I am excited about the new housing construction in my neighborhood, I am not very excited about HomeShare. ------ ajsharp stay hungry. stay foolish. ------ rexicus > quietly when pretending your article isn't clickbait or can't work a scare quote in your headline ~~~ sctb Thanks! We've removed that from the HN headline.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Are ur contacts banned on Twitter? - anankou https://whosban.org/ ====== anankou good one. That's a graphical alternative to [https://shadowban.eu/](https://shadowban.eu/) ------ Normille Unlikely anyone will have Twitter contacts in Ur. Given it was abandoned c.500BC.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
The irrationality of free - rantfoil http://www.wiredjournal.com/?p=150 ====== marcell He should have done a 3rd experiment where the kids could choose between 3 hershey's + small snickers and 2 hershey's + large snickers. ------ jsdalton This was interesting. In the microcosm of this experiment, the choice of the free candy bar is irrational. The kids are actually choosing between two outcomes: outcome A which is three Hershey's kisses and small Snickers bar, and outcome B which is two Hershey's kisses and a large Snickers bar. Outcome B is definitely better. Interestingly, in the grand scheme of things this isn't so illogical. If, for example, this was more like a storefront, where the kids could come and at any time get either free small Snickers bars or large Snickers bars for one kiss, then the former strategy is actually better. Take this another step further and start to consider the cost of decision making itself. Think of the mental cost of constantly processing every outcome in search of maximum benefit and minimum cost. In the long run, applying the heuristic of FREE = GOOD is probably the best strategy from a cost/benefit perspective, since in most cases it does actually work. This is a long way of saying that I think opting for free is not always rational in the immediate context but probably makes sense as a sort of general strategy for individuals in life. Maybe I'm just restating the obvious but I thought I would throw this out there. ~~~ marvin Think of the mental cost of constantly processing every outcome in search of maximum benefit and minimum cost. That's an interesting observation... It would be extremely exciting if we could somehow process real-world information and create programs that calculated and displayed this kind of information to us. Humans seem to be lousy at this, and hence there is great potential for making machines that allow us to make more efficient decisions. It is the same idea as applying fuzzy/probabilistic logic and rules of interference to the real world; the main technological difficulty isn't the logic per se, but translating information about the real world to a format we can apply the rules of logic to. I wonder what scientific insights we need to make before it becomes possible to do these things...it's got to be possible, right? ~~~ pchristensen Says the human populace: "You can bury my cold dead body before I let some computer program make my decisions for me!" Say businesses: "Please, we'll do anything to increase profits and ROI!" ------ iamdave Not to derail this post, but commenting on the 'allure of free' is starting to get as tired _as_ the allure of free. ~~~ ericb Agreed, except there was something else in this article that was interesting. The presence of a free alternative was alluring enough to prevent people from making a deal they normally would make, if only for the sake of keeping the "freeness." In theory, this royally screws up the idealogical basis of the freemium model. If the presence of the free option _kept_ them from entering into _any_ transaction with a cost, even if there was a clear benefit and the cost was low, that's a problem for freemium. ------ ojbyrne Is it irrational or just people seeing beyond the boundaries of the experiment? Once the first trade is offered, it seems like human nature to think - "this isn't necessarily the end of the experiment - choosing the free one is the safe choice because it's possible I might get offered the same deal again, perhaps even multiple times, as long as I have chocolate kisses left." ------ johnrob For some reason, our brains tend to overvalue savings. I've noticed this myself with gas prices. I am willing to go out of my way to stations that charge 10-20 cents less per gallon. Is that really worth the trouble? At ten gallons, this only amounts to 1-2 dollars out of 40 total. It really isn't worth it for me, yet I feel compelled to do it. ~~~ hugh If it makes you feel any better, I guess you're performing a valuable service to society. You're keeping the market working the way it should by ensuring that stations with slightly lower prices get less business than stations with higher prices, which helps keep the prices down for the rest of us. So in addition to those one or two dollars of savings, you should also get the warm glowy feeling of being a public benefactor. Congratulations! ------ wallflower Humans are irrational. Even the person who thinks themselves the most rational will do irrational things from time to time, especially under stressful situations. And if you think you can always overcome mental intertia and will yourself to do something: "Brain Scanner Can See Your Decisions Before You Make Them" <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=162863> ------ dimitry Pick up Dan's book, you won't be disappointed: Predictably Irrational I'm about halfway through and loving it.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ask HN: Forum(s) that you visit daily? - startupflix ====== throwaway180118 forums.somethingawful.com ------ cerberusss Well, there's 4chan. But seriously, I like reddit, especially the iOSProgramming, the swift and the financialindependence subs. ------ CM30 Hacker News, Reddit, Wario Forums, Gaming Latest, The Admin Zone, Discord. Also visit a few others every other day or so. ~~~ mkbkn What's some good non-tech Discord channels that you subscribe? ~~~ CM30 Well, I'm mostly interested in gaming and gaming culture, so the ones I subscribe to are related to that. But either way: General Gaming: GamesPress 1-Up World Wario Forums Discord Source Gaming Discord Gaming YouTube Related: REGNR8 Blue Jack Generation Snoman Gaming Speedrunning Related: Super Mario Odyssey Speedrunning Breath of the Wild Speedrunning ------ vioyul BlackHatWorld, HN, Reddit ------ sidcool HackerNew, Reddit, Twitter, StackOverflow. ------ altsyset IH community is my new special splace ~~~ kody What is IH? ~~~ mgliwka [https://www.indiehackers.com](https://www.indiehackers.com) ------ DanBC Twitter HN CloverBells Lobste.rs The Q Community I'm going to start using Mastodon more. I used to visit MeatBall Wiki a lot more often. ~~~ natdempk What is CloverBells? I tried Googling it without any luck. ~~~ startupflix Even me too. I can't find it. ------ odonnellryan cruisersforum.com, sailing forum. ------ cathhhhji I would not share them here because I don't want hn users to ruin them. ~~~ dang Dissing this community while participating in it is not only in bad taste, it breaks the site guideline against shallow dismissals. Please don't post like this here. [https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
List of useful unix tools - nonotmeplease http://typed.pw/a/453 ====== mveety It's awesome to see some plan 9 tools in there! I live on plan 9, and find unix annoying because of the differences in the "standard" tools.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Android App Tutorials - alincatalin http://androidseassions.blogspot.com/2011/06/what-is-android-seassions.html ====== st3fan This would be more interesting if you had content on there. Why not submit this link again when you have actually written some tutorials.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Apple Introduces What It Calls an Easier to Use Portable Music Player (2001) - Firebrand http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/24/business/technology-apple-introduces-what-it-calls-an-easier-to-use-portable-music-player.html ====== pkulak I think there's a law now that you have to post this as well: [http://slashdot.org/story/01/10/23/1816257/apple-releases- ip...](http://slashdot.org/story/01/10/23/1816257/apple-releases-ipod) ------ inmygarage "[Jobs] predicted that the improvement in technology he said the iPod represented would inspire consumers to buy Macintosh computers so they could use an iPod." While the "so they could use an iPod" part is off, he was so right about the significance of the iPod and its ability to inspire/convince people to purchase Macs, and what that meant for Apple in the decade that followed. ~~~ Samuel_Michon Well, the first generation iPod wasn't compatible with Windows and a FireWire port was required. The second gen iPod came in two versions: one for Mac, and one for Windows. iTunes for Windows came a year after that. It wasn't until the third gen that iPods became compatible with USB. In the fifth ten iPod (end 2005) that became the only way to connect an iPod to a computer. By then, the iPod provided more revenue than the sales of Macs did, but those saw enormous growth as well -- which is largely attributed to 'the halo effect'. [1] [1] <http://www.asymco.com/2011/07/26/apple-has-moved-on/> ------ greyish_water Wolfram Alpha tells me that $399 in 2001 is $498.06 today. ~~~ macrael That is pretty crazy, to think that the iPod was initially introduced at the same price as the iPad today. ~~~ InclinedPlane If you think that's crazy, consider than an original Apple II computer cost $4600 in today's dollars. ------ ibrow Interesting to compare the prediction of sales made in the article with the actual sales: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ipod_sales_per_quarter.svg> ~~~ macrael I did the same thing! To save the reader the work: IDC predicted in 2001 that the mp3 player market in 2005 would be around 18M devices. In 2005, Apple alone sold 31M iPods. ------ jcc80 ''It's a nice feature for Macintosh users,'' said P. J. McNealy, a senior analyst for Gartner G2, an e-commerce research group. ''But to the rest of the Windows world, it doesn't make any difference.'' Who is this Gartner research group? Ok, I do know who they are but it feels like whenever I read one of these "blasts from the past" articles they have an analyst in there making some statement that is way off mixed with terribly inaccurate predictions. ~~~ Permit I wouldn't be so quick to condemn him as the line that preceded your quote was, "Apple said it had not yet decided whether to introduce a version of the music player for computers with the Windows operating system, which is used by more than 90 percent of personal computer users." If Apple hadn't made iTunes available for Windows machines, there's a very likely possibility that the iPod wouldn't have taken off the way it did. ~~~ ben1040 And as I remember it, it was just a matter of _months_ after iTunes was released for Windows that the iPod really took off. iTunes for Windows came out in October 2003, and then the iPod Mini was released in January 2004. By even that February I recall the iPod Mini being a grand slam seller. The combination of Windows availability and the Mini being an option at a lower price point were when the stars seemed to have aligned for the iPod. ------ bdr "A hard drive with a headphone jack." -Bill Gates	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Open Source VLC media player 2.0.0 is out - jbk http://www.videolan.org/vlc/releases/2.0.0.html ====== jerrell Wow. I cannot believe the pettiness of comments here. VLC is a fantastic media player, and I'm quite appalled to see the conversation here dominated by such little gripes. VLC plays media more reliably than any other program I've tried, on Windows, Linux or Mac OS X. And whether or not you consider it perfect, reaching the 2.0 milestone is something to be lauded, not bitched about. ~~~ jbk Geeks and video geeks love to tweak at the best their media players. VLC is not the best tool for that, compared to selecting your own renderer, own codec pack+configuration and own subtitles codecs. This is normal. However, since VLC is getting too mainstream, I see more and more of hate that is unjustified. When asked why, they cannot explain why. This is a bit annoying to be honest. Finally, VLC being Cross-Platform cannot be the best on all platforms. We do our best, but we cannot be 100% perfect, especially with so little time. We need to do a company, but what Business Model? ~~~ hello_moto Don't listen to the haters. We (me, my wife, my family) are all using VLC and don't care about anything else. It can open all media files we care until today. It displays subtitles correctly. It enhances the sound of some media files that would otherwise have lower volume level when played on Windows Media Player. It is cross-platform: we use it on Mac, Windows, and Linux. Did I tell you that people around me are happy users (regardless the UI tweak?) because it just works with minimum effort to install? Keep the very good work. ~~~ sorbits While praising this player let me add that I absolutely love the ability for increased playback speed! This is a great timesaver for keynotes, lectures, and shows which move too slowly ;) ~~~ tripzilch This is absolutely true. Some keynote speakers just speak rather slowly, or repeat themselves and you can easily get away with 1.3x speed. Even though it sounds funny. I really wish there would be some sort of plugin that could select an even higher speed for silent/quiet parts. I figured "how hard could it be" (having some experience writing tiny softsynths in the past I wouldn't even mind writing a low quality pitch- preserving resample filter) but digging into it, coding a plugin for VLC is pretty arcane. At least, I couldn't figure it out without having to dig into all sorts of audio/video decoding issues I didn't really want to get in to. If anyone has any tips it would be greatly appreciated. I cannot promise I'll manage to code that particular filter but at least I can have some fun writing crazy VLC filter effects :) ------ dmix Still doesn't have an option to remember playback position. Users have been asking for this on the forums for years. Most of us use VLC to watch movies and not all of us finish them in one sitting. I hate having to find where I left off... ~~~ w1ntermute This is why I use SMPlayer. It has all the features of VLC and is less resource-intensive, to boot. Edit: also displays subtitles a lot better. ~~~ jbk Display subtitles better? You did not test 2.0.0. This is exactly what was fixed in this version. You might need to use the OpenGL output on Linux, though. ~~~ w1ntermute Just updated to 2.0.0 on Arch x64, and things subtitle-wise are not much better. They still look much less grainy on SMPlayer, though I may be able to mitigate that at least partially by fiddling with the settings (though ideally this wouldn't be necessary). But trying VLC out reminded me of a few more issues: * Activating the controls while in full-screen mode (by hitting the bottom of the screen) is temperamental * There's a lag after unpausing the video before audio starts playing again. Not functionally relevant, but it drives me nuts. ~~~ jbk Did you try the OpenGL output? ------ babebridou Anyone else having issues with the delay in volume control? I'm used to the volume changing instantly whenever I change it with the mouse wheel, but in 2.00 there seems to be an annoying delay of about a second for each change, at least on my PC. ~~~ skymt This appears to be the relevant bug: <https://trac.videolan.org/vlc/ticket/5654> ~~~ babebridou Thanks for the link. It certainly looks like it. ------ chrisballinger Does the move to LGPLv2.1+ for libVLC, libVLCcore and libcompat allow for Applidium's VLC iPhone port (<http://applidium.com/en/applications/vlc>) to be resubmitted to the App Store after some minor changes? ~~~ jbk Yes/No. We also need to move many VLC modules to LGPL, since VLC/iOS needs static linking on this platform. But, I am working on it. It takes a lot of time, and I am already doing much on my free time. ------ mitchty Ok, so first thing it did upon starting a movie in OSX was decide to rebuild the font cache. Wasn't this a problem on windows that was fixed? ~~~ avirambm Same here. I also find the "Use the native fullscreen mode on OS X Lion" option terribly slow. ~~~ tolmasky I can't believe this option is enabled by default, native fullscreen mode is by all accounts a bug marketed as a feature in Lion, _especially_ for a video player. It provides zero functionality over "non-native" (??) fullscreen, and actually severely degrades the experience in many situations. Namely, if you have two monitors, native fullscreen is completely broken as it: 1\. Forces you to full screen on the main monitor regardless of which monitor the window is currently in. So if you click it on your left hand monitor it jumps to your right hand monitor. 2\. Forces you to look at linen (!!!) in the other monitor. It doesn't even do the slightly less broken behavior of giving you black on the other monitor, it literally fills it up with that ridiculous linen repeated pattern so that it can optimally annoy you as you are watching the movie. Not to mention that you _should_ have the option of actually using your other monitor for actual work. This is why I just can't use iTunes or Quicktime for watching video content anymore. Because someone literally went in and deleted working code. Quicktime used to have nice options for blacking the other screens or not, etc. and they were _taken out_. Were people demanding this feature in VLC or something? ~~~ alixmartineau > I can't believe this option is enabled by default Because it's the platform default. That's how it should be. > It provides zero functionality over "non-native" (??) fullscreen Wrong. It puts you in another "Space". You can argue that you like OS X's fullscreen feature, but VLC implements it just how it sould be. ~~~ jbk > Because it's the platform default. That's how it should be. Yep, this is the exact reason. None of the developer like it much, but using the default option on a platform improve the integration. ------ krig I had to go in and delete the old version of VLC (1.12) that I had installed, and also delete the old preferences before the new version would work properly for me. The new graphical look in OSX (perhaps other systems as well, I don't know about them) has gotten some critique, but I think it looks great. ~~~ joejohnson There was a script provided with the OS X .dmg (at Goodies/Delete VLC Preferences) ------ pwelch I love VLC. Just today I was playing around with the streaming feature which I had not realized was so awesome. Plus the fact that it plays anything I have asked it to. Glad to see this open source project going strong! Keep up the good work VLC devs! ------ adrianscott First off, VLC is awesome, and VLC team are heroes, imho. I ended up having to go back to 1.11, as it ended up choking on the 1080p60 files my vidcam produces, though at first, for a minute or two, it worked better than 1.11 win32 (where i have to slow it down to 67% speed to get smooth playback). The u.i. changes (removal of slow down and speed back, and see playback speed) threw me for a moment, but then I saw I could customize the u.i. really easily, which was great. Can't wait til the day it can tap into my Nvidia GPU (460), but i know that's a non-trivial problem. Anyhow, overall, congrats to the team, and I look forward to some additional upgrades so I can tap into the new features. -a ~~~ jbk They are not removed, just hidden by default. The view menu and the customize menus are your friends. ------ thewordis I'm curious why no one ever brings up the legal status of VLC. It's an incredibly popular program, and is likely illegal in the US. Their FAQ (<http://www.videolan.org/support/faq.html>) used to make this explicit, mentioning who and where you'd have to send payment for patent royalties and that decoding DVDs is against the DMCA, whereas now any mention is relegated to the legal section (<http://www.videolan.org/legal.html>), where they encourage you to make your own judgment. Wayback machine: [http://web.archive.org/web/20091201230711/http://www.videola...](http://web.archive.org/web/20091201230711/http://www.videolan.org/support/faq.html) ~~~ rmc The USA is not the world. Many US software is illegal in other countries, that doesn't mean we need to keep telling everyone that (say) some software is illegal in China everytime it comes up. ------ nixle Loving everything about this! ------ moonchrome >New video outputs for Windows 7, Android, iOS and OS/2. OS/2 ? Why ? ~~~ jlarocco Why not? My guess, and it's just a guess, is that a few guys with old OS/2 machines thought it would be cool, so added it. Highly unlikely they devoted mainline VLC devs to it. ~~~ moonchrome I just thought there's some secret OS/2 using club (outside of legacy industrial machines :)) ~~~ guard-of-terra There totally are. People still use OS/2 because they think it's the best desktop OS ever created, they are tiny in numbers but are more than capable of serving themselves' needs. <http://www.ecomstation.com/> \- they even have this. ------ nixle What do they mean with "New video outputs for Windows 7, Android, iOS and OS/2." ? It's not the "android" or "ios" version they are talking about, since those are still in development, right? ~~~ jbk Android nightly build works fine. We need to finish the UI. ------ ChrisNorstrom I'm still using the old 0.9.9 version because that's the last version that has the old Slow Motion = Deep Pitch sound effect when you slow down the music. I actually like my music to sound deeper when I slow it down. So I've refused to upgrade for years. ~~~ morsch Preferences - Audio - Uncheck _Enable Time-Stretching audio_ I did need to restart VLC for that to take effect. This is VLC 1.x (whatever the latest in the Ubuntu repos is). I suspect the option is still available in VLC 2. ------ tcas Interesting new look. I was excited about getting HTTP Live Streaming support in VLC, however, it seems to be broken for sliding playlists, which is surprising since I thought it hooks into libav* for a lot of that stuff, which does have support. ~~~ jbk VLC HLS support is not using libav, for many reasons. Can you file a bugreport for a sample? ~~~ tcas I'll see what I can do, unfortunately generating a sample sliding window playlist isn't the easiest thing in the world to do (I can't post the feed I'm testing it with). Looking at access logs it appears to have something to do with reloading the playlist, as the access intervals don't look like Quicktime's or an iPhone's. ------ gala8y Made me think how much effort goes into the stuff so I can say "I was just watching a video on the second monitor using VLC." Seems like version 1.1 does not pick it up for update via 'Help / Check for updates'. Dont know if its by design or a little, tiny bug. ------ saintfiends Does anybody have a link to the source? It's giving a 404 from the website right now. ~~~ jbk OOps. Just fixed it. ------ chj Love VLC! Good to know it is moving to LGPL, if it means we can have VLC on iOS. ------ ajays Any pointers to Ubuntu (10.04) packages for this version of VLC? ~~~ morsch 10.04? No. But this PPA seems to have the up-to-date package for 11.10: <https://launchpad.net/~n-muench/+archive/vlc> ------ prophetjohn Windows and OS X only? ~~~ jbk Source is done and packagers for Linux are doing builds now. ------ hoag I love VLC but my buddy swears by Media Player Classic (at least on Windows). Anybody else? ~~~ salemh When all else fails, VLC always works. Media Player Classic (on windows) does a fair job, but breaks a lot as well. VLC doesn't break for pretty much any medium :) Love it. ------ meetcause Thank you guys. I prefer VLC on all the platforms I use. It gives me what I need for free. ------ tnuc And I still can't use the multimedia keys on my keyboard to control it while minimized. ------ zak_mc_kracken I can't find any indication that this new release supports 3D, did I miss something? ~~~ jbk Nope, only a fork does. ------ pibefision Does it consumes more CPU than 1.12? ~~~ agumonkey on my core duo, intel crap gpu, winxp it did consume much more. test : old, low quality 480p divx version \| cpu usage \| comm. vlc 2.0.0f \| ~ 15% \| half of it being system calls. vlc 1.1.11 \| > 1% \| smaller than one pixel in proc.exp graph sad since vlc was usually the lightest ( sometimes trading quality for fluidity ) ~~~ jbk This is a bug then. Can you file a bugreport or mail me? ~~~ agumonkey mail sent at gmail. Sorry for not having filed anything, I'm still don't have this reflex... ------ DavidSJ How is it acceptable that SourceForge download links are HTTP and not HTTPS? ~~~ DavidSJ Is there a reason this comment was modded down? ~~~ alexchamberlain I didn't vote down, but why would open source downloads need to go over HTTPS? It's very expensive to encrypt such large files for each download. Furthermore, many of the advantages can be gained by checking the MD5. ~~~ legality VLC is probably illegal in some countries due to the patents applying to a lot of video and audio codecs. If Sourceforge downloads were over an encrypted connection, one could avoid monitoring. ~~~ astrange That illegality applies to the developers of VLC, not to people downloading it. ------ Cyph0n On OS X: MPlayerX - On Windows: MPC and/or KMPlayer Until VLC becomes more "native" on OS X and improves its interface, I don't think I'll be using it. In any case, I've downloaded it on my PC, so I'm keeping an open mind towards it. ~~~ Terretta MplayerX and Movist are both in Mac App Store and both are playing one upsmanship on releases since getting there. It's great for video loving users. I normally use Plex Client (playing from Plex Media Server) but some sources crash Plex if the type of digital audio changes midstream, so I'll play that source in one of these, depending on whether I need the subtitles or am watching a whole series at once.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ubuntu Core for IoT - dorsatum http://www.ubuntu.com/things ====== thatcat Anyone know what the point of this is? I installed it but it uses the snappy repo, not apt, which has a pretty limited number of packages available. Docker is one of them so maybe that's the point of this - a boot to docker type platform for pi. However, you can just as easily install docker on the arch image for pi, so idk. [https://resin.io/blog/docker-on-raspberry-pi- in-4-simple-ste...](https://resin.io/blog/docker-on-raspberry-pi-in-4-simple- steps/)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Bob Lutz: Kiss the good times goodbye: The auto industry's change curve - jseliger http://www.autonews.com/article/20171105/INDUSTRY_REDESIGNED/171109944/bob-lutz%3A-kiss-the-good-times-goodbye ====== igetspam From my cold, dead hands... My wife and I were discussing American culture today and some of the reasons we'll be hard pressed to do anything to solve our present issues with mass shootings and I look at car culture and see the same kind of value. Americans aren't really good at giving up freedom, for any reason, no matter how many people will die. Cars and driving represent a freedom that I don't think we're going to be giving up any time soon. As you likely assumed from my first line, I'm part of the side that would fight tooth and nail against any attempts to legislate away independently owned and operated automobiles. I won't waste any time trying to convince people who hate cars that I'm right but I'll tell you that Uber doesn't come near my house and that's a perk. I live 30+ miles outside of the nearest "city" and loooooooove driving/riding (motorcycles) back roads and hills. I'm not trading in my car or truck or jeep or bike or bike for a blob that slips in and out of a pneumatic tube, no matter how much I love Futurama. ps- Some of my neighbors ride their horses on the same road I drive. We wave. ~~~ michaelbuckbee I think it's more likely going to be your cold empty wallet that prompts the change. As the shift moves on the insurance pool of manual only drivers is going to get worse and worse and the rates are going to skyrocket. ~~~ kylec Let’s say we get to a point where being driven autonomously is cheaper and more convenient than owning and driving your own car. Wouldn’t the people that still choose to drive, despite the higher cost, be the people that _like_ driving? And wouldn’t it make sense that these people would be pretty good drivers, get into accidents less, and therefore cost less to insure than the average driver today? ~~~ mannykannot I would not bet on it, given that most of those who have, for example, crashed while drag racing on urban streets would probably fall into the 'like to drive' category. ~~~ qbrass They'll just quit insuring their car. What's one more law broken? ------ taylodl It can't come soon enough as far as I'm concerned, though my 15 year old daughter who's anxiously waiting to learn to drive may see things differently. She could very well be amongst the last people who learn how to drive. The article doesn't discuss how far-ranging these impacts will be. Automakers and dealerships are just the tip of the iceberg. Part suppliers are impacted, as well as auto insurers and gasoline filling stations. Perhaps less obvious are auto repair shops of all stripes, auto repair stores, parking garages...this is a HUGE impact to the U.S. economy. It's amazing how little discussion this is getting beyond unemployed taxicab drivers. ~~~ swampthinker It's not sexy talking about how we have the potential to put millions of Americans out of jobs, and would rather handwave the discussion with a "Oh they said the same thing during the industrial revolution." ~~~ zlynx Present your argument that we'd be better off with 500,000 people employed as farmers and ditch diggers working by hand without automation and equipment. ~~~ lobotryas Yes, of course. How is this even a question? If we had the resources to give 500,000 people a living wage, a home, health care, in exchange for performing a completely meaningless task then that would be a pretty good deal (that many would also be happy to take). ~~~ ryandvm You're basically suggesting the broken window fallacy: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window) Basically, it's foolish to have people do unnecessary work because in doing so you have squandered time and resources that could have been spent creating additional value. ~~~ yequalsx The broken windows fallacy is not apt in terms of what lobotryas wrote. If we had enough resources so that everyone had a home, health care, and access to a livable amount of money each month then that would be good. Wouldn’t it? Lobotryas did not state how to accomplish this. Just said it’d be great if we lived in such a world. ------ hprotagonist My counter to this line of thinking, when it's come up in conversations before, is this: Horses are still legally permitted on basically all of the roads they were before automobiles were invented. Granted, they're generally quite rare, expensive to maintain, and a luxury ... but they're still with us. ~~~ dustinmoorenet Horses have been relegated to back country roads. If there is any amount of traffic, the horses are on the shoulder of roads, in the grass. I have never seen a horse on an interstate or highway. ~~~ romwell The OP's point still stands. There were no interstates or highways in the horse-and-buggy era. ------ fenwick67 > Unfortunately, I think this is the demise of automotive retailing as we know > it. I wouldn't start this sentence with "Unfortunately". ------ epx I don't think it will happen anytime soon. I can see autonomous car mode enabled in " controlled" environments like highways and advanced cities but there are a lot of countryside roads and trails where even cell phones don't work. ~~~ Theodores In the UK I don't imagine B roads or smaller being autonomous and the UK road structure is different to the US highways in many ways that make autonomous driving that bit harder. The bit I am seeing is private ownership of cars with a view to the batteries in the car partnering up with their solar panel and cheap overnight electricity. In this mode the car plays a really important role in evening out the peak power demands on the grid by selling electricity back at a higher rate than purchased overnight. Due to the culture of private ownership I see people getting electric plugs on the lamppost in their street, hooking up to that and buying their electric car on a favourable 5 year lease arrangement. It is very much the family vehicle with child-seats and whatnot permanently installed. These cars will be conventionally driven except on A roads and motorways when the car is allowed to drive. There will still be some expectation of the driver being at the wheel. There are trucks from all over Europe, until that guy from Turkey also has an electric, self-driving truck then the road is not going to be a fully automated zone, as proposed in the article. If you don't own an electric car then you won't be able to use it to even out the power demand at home, you would need a Tesla PowerWall or equivalent to store your solar and do that. I am not seeing people buy those things as quickly as they are buying iPhones. Most people don't even have decent insulation. The ownership of the car jumpstarts this transformation in how we use the electric grid and gets people involved in a way 'Uber' services will not. ------ avn2109 The article mentions "handset providers" as a thing that General Motors doesn't want to be. I'd like to observe that "a handset provider" is the most valuable public company on earth. ~~~ godzillabrennus That's one handset provider who captures about 95% of all the profits in the industry while the others fight over table scraps. General Motors knows they won't be Tesla and they don't exactly looking forward to fighting over table scraps. ~~~ BoorishBears What makes you think Tesla won’t be fighting for scraps while a company like GM does? ------ richardknop I am in a minority of skeptics in this case. I still believe that the "imminent" arrival of autonomous cars on scale is a pie in the sky and it will take many more decades to really make this leap. I believe we are in the same time period as AI was during 50s, 60s, 70s when huge promises of great things it would achieve were made but it took many more decades before AI started to really take off (meaning just recently). I believe Waymo and others are still in very early stage and it will take decades to get reliable enough product which can be rolled out en masse. ------ harshaw My intuition is this seems like futuristic thinking that you might have found from the 60's where everyone thought we would have bases on the moon and flying cars. I'd love if someone could post some well written rebutals. ~~~ ameister14 I don't think it's quite that far fetched - the reason we don't have flying cars or moon bases is that neither was actually all that desirable; neither was better than what we have by enough of a margin to make the short-term capital investment worth it. The same doesn't really hold true for driverless cars. It appears they will be cheaper, traffic and road safety would improve significantly and we're already now used to calling for a car with the push of a button on our mobile phones. Plus, we've already got billions being put into the development of them, by real public companies with a lot of shareholders and boards to answer to. We never really had that with flying cars or moon-bases. ------ pzone 20 years is not soon enough. My mother is aging and I don't want her to lose her mobility. ~~~ Game_Ender Has she consider using Uber of Lyft as they are right now? ------ fulafel Bizarre that co2 emissions are not mentioned in the article or the first couple of pages of comments here. That's the obvious high bit of why private car culture is unsustainable and immoral. ------ deathanatos Riiiighht. > _traveling at 120, 150 mph. The speed doesn 't matter._ What about pedestrians? Or an animal, such as a moose, that wanders, or bounds, onto the roadway from the nearby forest? Even an autonomous vehicle, even a _group_ of autonomous vehicles traveling as a well coordinated group, need to be able to stop for the person/moose, or they risk killing their occupant or that person. (or the moose.) The top speed will be dependent on how far you can clear around the vehicle. (A quick Google says a speed of 150mph has a stopping distance for a car of a fifth of mile!) > in 15 to 20 years — at the latest That is, by 2037, there will be no vehicles that aren't fully autonomous. It won't happen. Even _if_ the technology manages to progress that far, I doubt society is capable of that kind of rapid deprecation, even if we limit it to just the mainland US. > _Everyone will have five years to get their car off the road or sell it for > scrap or trade it on a module._ Such legislation is going to be _terrible_ for the individual; how are you going to propose that people make such a selfless trade, because in my experience, they'll never do it. For some people, you're going to legislate away their current means of transport, require them to start paying either for a new vehicle or for the cost of renting one (through a provider, e.g., Uber, counts as renting), and expect them to be fine with it, when for some folks, this might be hugely financially harmful? > _That is the death knell for companies such as BMW, Mercedes-Benz and Audi._ Seems to me like they could easily pivot to making luxury cars (which isn't really a pivot?); want a decent ride? $X. Want _nice_ ride? $Y, where Y > X. There will still be people who want to go from point A to point B, and other people who want to do so in style. > _computer terminals with full connectivity._ No, there will be WiFi. Maybe. And unless we make big improvements to mobile connectivity (which in 20 years, hopefully we will), it must be limited by that. > _This transition will be largely complete in 20 years._ That would be nice, but I just don't see us going from "I can't buy a fully autonomous vehicle" to "manually cars are illegal" in 20 years. I'm still also curious about a few aspects of (what I know are hypothetical, since nothing is on the market yet) autonomous vehicles: * Will it bend the law, particular during the transition when there is a mix of human and computer driven vehicles? I, as a human, will regularly bend the absolute letter of the law to keep myself and others on the road safe: e.g., to avoid hazards, to allow a motorcycle to lane-split, because I don't believe the fool next to me will remain in his lane, etc. I.e., I'd rather be alive than right, as the old saying goes.) * Navigation of a car is sometimes a hideously complex thing. E.g., I need to stop on a long road trip. I might not know where, yet, but we need to take the next exit. Today's mapping apps have always, in my experience as a user, failed terribly here: searching for something always shows results in a X mile radius around you; this includes useless results that are behind me, or completely irrelevant due to being hard to get to. ~~~ rohit2412 > Today's mapping apps have always, in my experience as a user, failed > terribly here: searching for something always shows results in a X mile > radius around you; this includes useless results that are behind me, or > completely irrelevant due to being hard to get to. Google maps does have a nice search feature for on the way while you are navigating. [https://www.greenbot.com/article/2995423/google- apps/google-...](https://www.greenbot.com/article/2995423/google-apps/google- maps-now-lets-you-search-for-food-gas-and-more-along-your-navigation- route.html) ------ Doctor_Fegg What the fuck is up with the scrolling on this article. (Mobile Safari.) ------ daodedickinson Meanwhile, I saw an amazing cabin this fall that had a stunningly low price because it still requires fording a major river to access. ------ neo4sure Good thing he is finally admitting reality. Did this guy regularly come on tv to bach Tesla? ------ RickJWag Lutz is the visionary who brought us the Pontiac Aztec. I hope is vision is just as good here. ~~~ linksnapzz Wrong wrong wrong. Lutz arrived at GM just as the Aztek/Rendezvous were being released, way, way after anything could be done about it; in fact, in one of his recent books he talks in detail about the process failures at GM that resulted in those cars as well as others being sent to market when even many people inside the company were acknowledging that they were nowhere near what they needed to be to be competitive. ------ rrhd I feel like we should start organizing the resistance to this "you just call for it" now. I liek my car. I like owning my car. I like keeping my random stuff in my car. I like being able to jump in my car and go on a trip if I want. I like having my dog in my car. How is "oh well you just call for a car" better? ~~~ LeifCarrotson That's great. I like my car too. I think it's important to note, though, that while I enjoy _owning_ my car I do not enjoy _paying_ for it. If there was a reasonable alternative to that $10,000 a year luxury that is car ownership, many people would take that alternative. They might take it gladly or take it reluctantly, but they would still take it. ~~~ BRAlNlAC >a reasonable alternative to that $10,000 a year luxury that is car ownership This fundamentally isn't true. I've had a used Camry for almost a decade and the annual cost of ownership including purchase price, maintenance, registration and insurance is around 2,500 dollars. It has given me a place to store my things when I have limited housing, it is always ready with all my effects when I want to leave, and I am very much in tune with how the car should feel when it is on the road which gives me considerable comfort. Politically, expect any sort of legislation trying to force "legacy" cars off the road as being anti-poor, because it is. Cars don't have to be expensive. ~~~ r00fus [https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/04/16/aaa- ca...](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/04/16/aaa-car- ownership-costs/2070397/) As of 2103 the average yearly cost of ownership was $9000. I doubt it's gone done since. ~~~ Mister_Snuggles That includes depreciation, which is effectively the cost of the car. If you own the car outright and aren’t planning on selling it, this is effectively zero. ~~~ LeifCarrotson Depreciation is the difference between the price of the vehicle when you purchase it, and the value of the car when you can no longer drive it - whether that's because you sold it, because it died, or because you died. There are different amounts of depreciation between a 2-year-lease of a new vehicle, a purchase of a 50k mile vehicle sold at 150k, and the purchase of a 200k mile vehicle that's sold to the scrapyard to be melted down for steel...but it's all depreciation. ~~~ Mister_Snuggles The thing with including depreciation in the "cost" is that it doesn't actually matter to individuals. To a business, depreciation is a real thing that affects their tax return. The Canada Revenue Agency has a lot of rules around how to depreciate assets and how they affect income. I'm sure the IRS has similar rules. To a person, this is not the case. If I have a $10,000 car loan on a $20,000 car, the only things that matter are the down payment of $10,000 and the regular loan payments. If I pay the loan off over five years but the car has a 10 year useful life, those last five years are effectively free. Yes, from a pure accounting perspective I would debit the asset account for my car, credit cash for the down payment, and credit a liability account for the car loan. But in reality, that doesn't actually matter. There is no impact on my taxes by amortizing my car over 10 years vs 5 years. The only impacts are how the down payment affected my savings and how the loan payments affect my cash flow. ~~~ LeifCarrotson After those 10 years, you can ostensibly sell the car when you feel it has outlived its usefulness to you. Whether you can then sell that car for $8,000 (and thus finance your next vehicle down payment with it) or have to scrap it for $500 has a huge impact on your total cost of owning a vehicle. The loan payments are factored into our sum of car payments, registration, insurance, gas, and maintenance already, yes, but some of your down payment should be factored into the annual cost. Not all of it, because then you'd be ignoring the value of the car when you sell it. The resulting factor in the sum is equal to the depreciation of the vehicle.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
React-like RxJS-based framework (weird) - asimpledog https://dev.to/kosich/recks-rxjs-based-framework-23h5 ====== asimpledog import { timer } from 'rxjs'; function App() { const ticks$ = timer(0, 1000); return <div> <h1>{ ticks$ }</h1> <p>seconds passed</p> </div> }	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
The Big Vitamin D Mistake - pacaro https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/28768407/ ====== King-Aaron Anecdotally, I had this discussion with a cardiovascular interventionist specialist about seven or eight years ago when I was managing a team of cardio theatre orderlies in a private hospital. He made the comment, "mark my words, in about five to ten years time there will be a major scare about needing to absorb more vitamin D". His opinion was that the increase in sunscreen usage and the push to avoid skin cancer by staying covered up was likely to blame. I find it interesting when articles such as this pop up, because it directly reflects his concerns from those years ago. For reference, this was the late Dr Geoffrey Mews (who I only just realised has passed on while I was looking for a reference to post. That's made me a bit sad now) ~~~ deepGem The NIH guys also did a study that said that even in tropical countries, Vitamin D absorption has fallen dramatically because of lifestyle changes. One of the probable factors is the lust for fair skin. I routinely see people covered from head to toe to help them stay fair skinned, even kids are sent to play covered in full sleeve clothing. [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3897581/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3897581/) ~~~ zeveb > One of the probable factors is the lust for fair skin. I think this must be cultural. Certainly in my experience in the United States, the lust is for tanned skin. There are even tanning salons, where one can lie down in a machine which floods one's skin with UV. Now, I _personally_ love fair skin, and have never understood why others seem to love a tan so much. ~~~ dsr_ It's a cultural thing, and directly related to wealth (or class, if you prefer). If most people work outside for a living, then the sign of wealth is that you don't have a tan. If most people work in offices, then the sign of wealth is that you have a tan, implying that you went on vacation or otherwise have the available leisure time. When most people do manual labor, having impractically long fingernails demonstrates that you don't have to do that. When most people have two or three sets of clothing, changing clothes several times a day demonstrates your wealth. When most people eat a subsistence diet, being fat is demonstrating wealth. when most people eat fast food, being thin demonstrates your superior resources. If most people need to pay attention to what they are wearing at their jobs, dressing in a way which signals that you don't have to pay attention is a status marker. If everybody drives a car, picking an unusual vehicle can be a status marker. What's the difference between a Chevy Silverado 2-door and a Ford F-150 SVT Raptor? They demonstrate different spending priorities. ------ dcx Related to this topic, if you have IBS/IBD, some interesting research been coming out in the last couple of years indicating that low vitamin D may play a role in this issue as well. This [1] 2015 study found 82% of people with IBS had low vitamin D levels relative to 31% in the control group. This [2] 2016 one _proved causation_ of vitamin D supplementation improving symptoms, by randomly splitting into two groups and treating only one. This [3] speculative writeup by the Vitamin D Council in 2014 discusses some possible mechanisms of action. This seems like such low-hanging fruit that it was extremely surprising to me that this is at the cutting edge. Causes and cures for IBS are not clear and one third of patients find current treatments unsuccessful [4]. But the above doesn't seem to be well known in online discussion because it's so new, and my gastroenterologist didn't bring it up at all either. [1] [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4412886/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4412886/) [2] [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27154424](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27154424) [3] [https://www.vitamindcouncil.org/health- conditions/inflammato...](https://www.vitamindcouncil.org/health- conditions/inflammatory-bowel-disease/) [4] [https://www.vitamindcouncil.org/study-finds-high-dose- vitami...](https://www.vitamindcouncil.org/study-finds-high-dose-vitamin-d- supplementation-significantly-improves-irritable-bowel-syndrome/) ~~~ neonhomer Anecdotal: I have Chrohns and take 2000 UI Vitamin D everyday. I've been prescribed the lowest dosage anti-inflammatory (Mesalamine) for years and rarely had a flare up. My Vitamin D blood tests always come back in the normal level. ~~~ CWuestefeld Another anecdote... I also take mesalamine (as Delzicol in my case), and take 3000 IU of Vitamin D (along with supplements of calcium, B-complex, and some others). I almost never have flares. However, I can't get a good colonoscopy - my GI doc says the prep is always bad, even if I extend it for an additional day. He attributes that to a chronic simmering inflammatory state preventing things from cleaning out well. That puts me at a much higher risk of colon cancer, and so I'm also doing Entyvio infusions prophylactically. ~~~ ianai Have you tried going to a different doctor? ------ micro_cam This article seems to be a low quality review of other research with a clickbatey title (full text here: [https://www.jpmph.org/journal/view.php?doi=10.3961/jpmph.16....](https://www.jpmph.org/journal/view.php?doi=10.3961/jpmph.16.111)). Pubmed is sort of like arxiv.org and the fact this has an nih.gov base url should not be taken as an endorsement of it by the NIH. That said I do actually believe that more then the recommended amount of vitamin D can be beneficial and the recommendations are in need of reevaluation. ~~~ davidshepherd7 Just to back this up: the journal it's published in has a very very low impact factor of 0.235 (i.e. it publishes 4x more papers that it gets citations, probably most of it's papers are never cited by anyone) [1]. If this paper was considered a big a deal by the wider research community you would expect it to be published in a high profile journal. [1]: [https://journal.komci.org/ViewJournalInfo.php?JID=109#Impact...](https://journal.komci.org/ViewJournalInfo.php?JID=109#ImpactFactor) ~~~ jooke Do you know why this is the case? Is there some flaw in their methodology? ~~~ patkai Good question! The scientific method does not include references to "impact factor" :) ~~~ drostie I mean, it does. The "fairy tale" that one hears in high school doesn't, but we put aside fairy tales when we became adults. If you are done with the "undergrad level" of Popper and Kuhn it is worth reading Imre Lakatos's work on philosophy of science. It contains a moment where one realizes that research programs live or die by this "impact factor" and that this living or dying is a key part of the overall methodology of science. The gist is that science is actually participating in a survival-of- the-fittest evolution with certain foundational ideas as the "genes" which "reproduce". So scientific ideas are actually good or bad in no small part due to their ability to create further scientific research along similar lines. A low impact-factor therefore directly says "along this particularly important- to-science axis, this journal sucks." ~~~ alex_stoddard But to stretch the analogy a bit further would it be fair to say that impact factor is very like sexual selection for extreme display traits that otherwise are detrimental to the wellbeing of the species? Yes impact factor matters to current science as practiced but there is plenty of good criticism to show (at least as it is currently calculated) that it is a lousy measure of what is likely to end up being true, reproducible and useful. ~~~ throwawayjava _> would it be fair to say that impact factor is very like sexual selection for extreme display traits that otherwise are detrimental to the wellbeing of the species?_ If I read every PoS article vaguely related to my research, I'd never get anything done. In practice, I don't pay attention to impact factor. But I do pay attention to who's publishing. And that's basically the same as impact factor, in practice. _> that it is a lousy measure of what is likely to end up being true, reproducible and useful._ I don't think so. High impact factor publications are _MUCH_ more likely to be quality science than low impact factor publications (at least in my area). The major venues would have to get at least two orders of magnitude worse before they became bad indicators of quality. Of course, and obviously, that does not entail that all work published in high impact factor journals is high-quality. I think the fundamental problem is just that you vastly under-estimate the enormous volume of utter crap there is out there. ------ tathougies This supports my lived experience. Found to be incredibly low in vitamin D, and diagnosed with autoimmune thyroiditis. Doctor said to supplement with 2000 IU being the max per day. After seeing no improvement whatsoever in vitamin D levels, and after talking with others with the same issue, I self medicated to 10000 IU / day. Lo and behold my vitamin D levels went back up and my auto-antibodies went back down. ~~~ 20years This is similar to my lived experience. I was diagnosed with Hashimoto's 3 years ago. I was lucky to find a great doctor that specialized in it. He put me on 15000 IU / day for 3 months because I was so severely low in addition to having high antibodies. Within 3 months my levels were so much better. I still take 10000 IU / day along with selenium, iron, fish oil and good diet/exercise and all my levels have been in check for 2 years :) ~~~ Flow Could you write a bit about the role of selenium in your treatment? Thanks. ~~~ 20years Sorry just now saw this. The article here goes into things pretty well for my situation at least [http://www.lifeextension.com/protocols/metabolic- health/thyr...](http://www.lifeextension.com/protocols/metabolic- health/thyroid-regulation/Page-08) I don't want to give any kind of medical advice especially without knowing the situation of others. If you are concerned though, it doesn't hurt to get blood work done. Following are the common things to test for if you think you may have Hashimoto's or thyroid issues. Vit D, Ferritin, Thyroid peroxidase antibody (TPO), Thyroglobulin antibody (TGAb), Thyroid-stimulating hormone (TSH), Free T4 Test ------ jhwhite Could someone help me understand this? >it was found that 8895 IU/d was needed for 97.5% of individuals to achieve values ≥50 nmol/L. Another study confirmed that 6201 IU/d was needed to achieve 75 nmol/L and 9122 IU/d was needed to reach 100 nmol/L. The largest meta-analysis ever conducted of studies published between 1966 and 2013 showed that 25-hydroxyvitamin D levels <75 nmol/L may be too low for safety and associated with higher all-cause mortality, demolishing the previously presumed U-shape curve of mortality associated with vitamin D levels. What is IU/d? What is nmol/L? Could someone ELI5 the entire abstract for me? Well, maybe a little more than 5, I get that there was an error estimating recommended levels and we're not getting enough. ~~~ floatingatoll The generally accepted goal by both the researchers and the US RDA is to reach 50-75 nmol/L blood levels, using however many IU that takes. IU/d is "IU per day of Vitamin D", and nmol/L is "nmol per liter of blood". Vitamin D is measured in IU rather than grams like most other supplements for medical reasons I'm not familiar with. nmol is an unfamiliar unit, but I can help clarify why this paper is so stunning anyways. [https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/VitaminD- HealthProfessiona...](https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/VitaminD- HealthProfessional/) is a summary of the NIH's position on Vitamin D for US citizens. The research linked by this post differs in two key ways, approximately: First, "<75 nmol/L may be too low for safety", vs. the NIH statement ">50 nmol/L generally considered adequate" (for adults). Second, "8895 IU was needed to reach >50 nmol/L", vs. the NIH statement "600 IU sufficient with minimal sun exposure" (for adults). So, in summary, for healthy adults, they assert that 10-20x the current RDA- indicated IU of vitamin D consumption is necessary to achieve the recommended blood saturation level of 50-75 nmol/L in all adults. Two notes: These precise figures are for grown adults, NOT children; and, I strongly encourage getting a vitamin D blood test before starting or modifying your vitamin D supplement intake, especially if attempting to reach the 15x RDA levels described here. ~~~ logfromblammo IU are used whenever a particular vitamin has multiple forms with varying levels of efficacy [0]. Or it may be used when the typical quantities are measured in inconveniently small units. 1 IU of cholecalciferol is 0.025 micrograms. If you supplement vitamin D at hogh doses, make sure you use cholecalciferol rather than ergocalciferol. The former is naturally synthesized in your own skin, whereas the latter is produced mainly in mushrooms, and can result in unpleasant side effects. Maximum-dose recommendations from nutritionists may include the assumption that the consumer does not know the difference, therefore reflect the highest safe dose of the least-safe vitamer. It is similar to the issues with vitamin A, when someone may safely supplement with carotenes and unsafely supplement with retinol. You can eat sweet potato and carrots until you turn orange, but you cannot eat a single bite of polar bear liver. But because we are mostly idiots, nutritionists cannot recommend a high-dose supplement for vitamin A, with carotene in mind, because someone will inevitably overdose themselves with retinol. So if you can certify yourself as not-a-moron, you will be able to figure out when those recommendations may be safely ignored. [0] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamer) ~~~ Asooka Where can one go to learn about different forms of vitamins and the safe&recommended doses for each? ~~~ floatingatoll The other reply to your comment is entirely valid and I encourage you to read it in full. That said, the only way to measure a safe dose of a vitamin is to perform medical tests before and during a dosing regimen to ensure that you are neither under nor over the target levels of the vitamin in your body. Medical science is not yet reliable when it comes to defining target levels of vitamins in any individual's body. In general, for all body dosing regimens, the goal is to survive the dosing changes without dying _first_ , and to produce the desired result _second_. If you are not treating a specific symptom and instead wish to simply calibrate your blood levels to "optimum", be warned: There is no optimum, period full stop. For example, if you increase your vitamin D levels precisely to a target amount with careful blood testing and supplement regimes, then your risk of death from sunlight exposure may increase if/when the levels of sunlight you're exposed to shift significantly (due to work, weather, or travel). Some will immediately object that the increase in risk is vanishingly small. You are irreplaceable. What level of risk of death of acceptable to you? Soylent calibrates their food product to 100% of all doses specified by the US RDA for healthy adults. It's generally assumed to be a safe set of targets, though some would say that it is too low in many respects (while missing the bigger picture of the 'pick one' conflict between society-level dosing and individual-specific dosing), and others would say that it is too high in many respects (while missing the bigger picture of the 'pick one' conflict between increased risk of side effects vs. increased risk of malnutrition). There's a good reason why everyone ends up at the same sentence, and I'm going to provide it now: Seek advice from a medical professional before consuming supplements. If you are unwilling to do so, get a med-alert bracelet and keep a summary of the past year of dosing changes in your wallet. It may someday save your life. If you are unwilling to wear a med-alert bracelet and keep a log of your self- alteration efforts, consciously accept that you risk death if unintended consequences occur. ------ rmm I have been taking 5000IU Vitamin D for the past 7 years, with a little more over the winter months. It's stupidly cheap, I get 360 5000IU capsules for $13, so it has cost me less than $100 over that period. Anecdotally, it was a game changer for me personally. I got less sick during the winter, and my overall wellbeing improved greatly. A word of advice, increase Vitamin K intake aswell. Vitamin D helps calcium absorption, but Vitamin K directs it to where it needs to go (skeleton). ~~~ Styn Word of advice: don't take vitamins ADEK without advice from a physician for extended periods or in high doses. These are fat soluble so you can have too much of them. ~~~ avip This should be reiterated: Please consult a professional before drastically altering the chemical composition of your ephemeral body. I know it sounds downright crazy, but it's possible that someone who's studied medicine and practiced it for years, actually knows better than random anonymous forum users. ~~~ icelancer >>I know it sounds downright crazy, but it's possible that someone who's studied medicine and practiced it for years, actually knows better than random anonymous forum users. As the link in the OP actually denotes, no, that's not always the case. Bodybuilders and performance trainers - as well as Soviet Union sports scientists - have known for decades that Vitamin D supplementation is vital. This has been rejected by a significant number of general practitioners and other medical experts who are and were anti-supplement simply out of rote thinking. Yes, people should be tested for their levels. But this simply isn't feasible for poor people, and telling them to get serum tests for Vitamin D before taking a lower-bound amount of the cheap supplement from the grocery store is ridiculous. ~~~ lostlogin I don’t think that the drug regimes of the Soviet Olympic Teams should be held up as a good example to follow - a lot of damage was done to a lot of people. On a related note, the Russian team just got banned for trying that crap again. [http://www.rollingstone.com/sports/news/russia-banned- from-2...](http://www.rollingstone.com/sports/news/russia-banned- from-2018-winter-olympics-over-doping-scandal-w513380) ~~~ myth_drannon That was mostly political decision, many American/Norwegian/... are legally taking performance enhancing drugs. ------ noahdesu Has anyone had experience ordering blood work (e.g. the vitamin d 25 hydroxy test) without visiting a doctor? I've seen very few references to the set of sites that pop up first online [0, 1, 2, 3] when I've gone looking for reviews in the past. Any suggestions? I'm in CA. [0]: [https://www.privatemdlabs.com](https://www.privatemdlabs.com) [1]: [http://www.directlabs.com/](http://www.directlabs.com/) [2]: [https://www.walkinlab.com/](https://www.walkinlab.com/) [3]: [https://www.health-tests-direct.com/](https://www.health-tests-direct.com/) ~~~ pauljurczak In case you have a health insurance - many plans provide a free yearly preventive care doctor visit, which include basic blood lab work. I took advantage of it many times with different insurance companies. ~~~ batter I'm not sure it applies to US where Health Insurance is rather russian roulette when you need coverage. Not sure about Aetna, but BlueCross is pretty clear: "BCBSNC will provide coverage for testing serum vitamin D levels when it is determined to be medically necessary because the medical criteria and guidelines noted below are met." [https://www.bcbsnc.com/assets/services/public/pdfs/medicalpo...](https://www.bcbsnc.com/assets/services/public/pdfs/medicalpolicy/testing_serum_vitamin_d_levels.pdf) I just recently have been struggling with coverage of Vitamin D test for kid with Celiac. ------ ravar Throwing in my two cents. I used to suffer from seasonal mood swings, since taking a daily multivitamin this has been the best winter of my life. ~~~ themodelplumber I've been tracking my depression for a few years now, and I'm amazed at the number of things that can trigger a depressive episode. I used to think I had a disease called depression, but it now appears that I had arrived at a collection of various life circumstances that made experiencing depression on any given day more likely for me. Some of the main triggers have been: \- Attempting to proceed without a plan \- Pushing for more productivity when less is called for (New year's resolutions were a great example personally) \- Bad sleep (I now use the calculator at sleepyti.me and have had great results) \- Too much exercise without rest days \- Too much exposure to social experience \- Too few dopamine-injecting experiences (e.g. not enough achievement, not nibbling away at my problems and watching leverage build up) Strikingly to me, some of these seem tied to my psychology and I would hesitate to tell others "hey not having a plan is bad for you" when I know some people for whom planning is a mental health liability. Personalized medicine can't get good enough, fast enough. ~~~ jventura > Bad sleep (I now use the calculator at sleepyti.me and have had great > results) Interesting site, didn't knew about it! I've checked it out, and as I wake everyday at 7am, it suggests me four different hours: 10pm, 11:30pm, 1am and 2:30am. What I find interesting is that none of it matches exactly the 8h average sleep value. As you say that you have had great results, could you comment a little bit on that? Thanks! ~~~ twobyfour 8 hours is typically time from bedtime to wake time. It allows for some time spent falling asleep, and maybe one wake-up to visit the bathroom. You'll notice that your suggested wake times are an hour and a half apart. Natural sleep cycles tend to run about 90 minutes (on average). So 7.5 hours would be 5 cycles. 8 hours is 5 cycles plus that buffer time. I haven't used the app you mention, but I have begun a habit of getting out of bed between cycles instead of whenever in the cycle my alarm goes off. It definitely increases morning alertness and willingness to get up. Not sure it affects restedness much. And I've been measuring my sleep in cycles (or at least in 90 min increments) instead of in hours - which gives me a much clearer perspective on how much I've had and need. ------ yufengg tl;dr: we need wayyy more Vitamin D than previously recommended. ~13.3x more. Take supplements to reach 8000 IU/day for adults. existing standards from the NIH: [https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/VitaminD- HealthProfessiona...](https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/VitaminD- HealthProfessional/) ~~~ skybrian However the article doesn't describe any new research and cites a meta- analysis that has a different conclusion: "A target range of 25(OH)D of greater than 30 ng/mL could be achieved in most individuals by intake of approximately 1000 IU per day of vitamin D3, which is one quarter the National Academy of Sciences–Institute of Medicine tolerable upper level of intake of 4000 IU per day at ages 9 years and older. Although it is above the National Academy of Sciences–Institute of Medicine–recommended daily allowance of 600 to 800 IU per day, intake of 1000 IU per day has been reported as safe for daily use for almost all adults, according to the recent Endocrine Society clinical guidelines. Still, some authors have expressed concern about the efficacy and absolute safety of doses greater than 1000 IU per day, so caution is reasonable. The Endocrine Society has established a tolerable upper-limit intake of 10 000 IU per day at ages 19 years and older. Doses of vitamin D3 below 10 000 IU per day in adults have not been associated with toxicity, and serum 25(OH)D concentrations less than 200 ng/mL are generally not considered toxic. This leaves a considerable margin of safety for efforts to raise the population concentration of 25(OH)D to 40 ng/mL." [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4103214/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4103214/) ------ growlix Interesting that this stems in part from misinterpretation of confidence intervals. The referenced paper, A Statistical Error in the Estimation of the Recommended Dietary Allowance for Vitamin D [0], seems like an excellent example to illustrate how (and how not) to interpret confidence intervals. [0] [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4210929/#!po=22...](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4210929/#!po=22.5000) ------ moonka A couple years after I moved to Seattle I started noticing some odd aches and pains. After a coworker had similar issues, I went to the doctor, and they tested my Vitamin D levels. They were ridiculously low. They had me on a high initial dose, and than taking supplements ever since. I've heard the same story from tons of neighbors. Nowadays it's one of my first suggestions for new transplants. It's made a marked difference (along with a sunlamp). ~~~ Mouse47 What sorts of aches and pains? I'm only asking since my body just effing hurts sometimes, usually my upper back/ribs...especially when I'm stoned :/ ~~~ Double_a_92 Not OP, but I had a similar experience. In my case it was stomach and bowel pains, like cramps... combined with anxiety without reason. ------ andy_ppp If you intend to take vitamin d I read in various places you should also take magnesium and probably vitamin k as well. And less calcium. Everything is interconnected. [https://www.precisionnutrition.com/stop- vitamin-d](https://www.precisionnutrition.com/stop-vitamin-d) ~~~ guilty001 I recently started taking 3000mg of magnesium per day as magnesium chelate. The bottle recommends three capsules per day for muscle spasms / cramps. Historically, I have a couple of basic assault charges, an assault with sexual intent charge, I was charged with two counts of trafficking a controlled drug (later dropped). Shortly after I commenced taking six capsules a day I started feeling a _lot less psychotic_. ~~~ 0xJRS I would also recommend taking Zinc with it. I was taking Magnesium at one point by itself and developed a muscle twitch which was fixed by adding Zinc. ~~~ guilty001 Yep, been taking zinc as zinc chelate and / or zinc gluconate for years. ------ creep About once every 6 months I remember to start taking my vit D supplements again. I've always taken more than the recommended dose because vitamin D is not extremely bioavailable in pill-form, and I notice amazing improvements in mood, mostly. Usually I am sad in the mornings. I have a cup of coffee, browse around on HN, and then convince myself to do work, and the sadness goes away with the distraction, and by the evening I feel pretty good for "doing so much work". When I take vitamin D, after about a week I begin to wake up and set to work immediately, leaving time in the evening for fucking around. I really should do that now, before finals. ~~~ whowouldathunk Same experience for me. The University of Washington headache clinic recommended Vitamin D and Magnesium supplements and it made a marked difference in my mood. Turns out having constant mild headaches is pretty depressing. ~~~ noir_lord Have to be careful with magnesium, too much and you'll spend the entire day on the toilet been reminded that topologically humans are a tube. ~~~ creep This effect is more pronounced with lower-quality magnesium supplements, such as magnesium oxide, magnesium sulfate, and magnesium chloride. These compounds are insoluble in water (magnesium oxide), or their counter-ions are not absorbed (magnesium sulfate). Magnesium + glycine (specifically bisglycinate which is the magnesium salt with two glycine molecules) is more bioavailable and does not have a laxative effect since glycine is easily absorbed by cell walls. Magnesium citrate also does not have a marked laxative effect and is more bioavailable than magnesium oxide, but less bioavailable than magnesium bisglycinate. ~~~ noir_lord Thank you for the info, I'll check those out, my medication is thought to affect nutrient levels so I take supplements (I found out about the laxative effects myself..) ------ piotrkaminski Coincidentally, another submission from earlier today points to a study that says that (lack of) Vitamin D can impact sleep quality: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15862222](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15862222). ------ theprotocol If the recommendations of this study become the guideline, it may validate the other studies suggesting that nearly everyone is deficient in magnesium, which is a co-factor in the Vitamin D / calcium cycle. AFAIK (and correct me if I'm wrong), the vitamin D metabolism requires magnesium, calcium, vitamin K2, and vitamin A. K2 in particular needs special attention, as it's the hardest of the substrates to get. ~~~ skybrian It's not a study. It's an article that cites other studies. ~~~ theprotocol It has an abstract, so I figure it's a meta-analysis and not just an article. ~~~ skybrian It's not a meta-analysis either. It cites a meta-analysis, which has different conclusions. ------ borplk Steve Gibson has talked about this issue in the past: [https://www.grc.com/health/vitamin-d.htm](https://www.grc.com/health/vitamin-d.htm) (And please, yes we get it you are a smart ass, don't link to the page that you are going to. The horse has been beaten to death.) ~~~ skeleton Now I'm curious as to what page you're referring to. ~~~ borplk I'm not going to refer to it. If you are curious search on google or HN. ~~~ simias It seems dishonest to hide content that may be relevant to the discussion, especially after teasing it that way. Maybe if it warrants mentioning in your original comment it also warrants explaining why you think it's irrelevant? ~~~ borplk There's no dishonesty. They are easily found for anyone interested. As I said the horse been has beaten to death so I didn't want to do what I was discouraging others from doing. They are mostly uneducated, lazy, decade-old, hand-wavy, and baseless personal attacks on him. The man has been a geek, engineer, programmer and a techie for multiple decades. He has been on record for the past 12-13 years audio, video and text transcripts, 2-3 hours per week, discussing many topics in detail, explaining his thoughts and ideas and reasoning carefully (on SecurityNow podcast, 600+ episodes!). Every time he has made a mistake he comes back and carefully corrects himself, and it doesn't happen often either. He is no Linus Torvalds, and he doesn't claim to be one, most of us aren't either. And his knowledge goes into all sorts of weird corners from science fiction to medicine like the vitamin D stuff and the "sleep formula". All of it available for free for anyone who has the patience to sit through it and learn. I have, and he has improved my life in many ways that I owe him for and can never pay back (including starting to take vitamin D many years ago after he talked about as I have referred to). He has contributed positively to this community and industry for many years. He has done nothing to deserve people bringing up stupid pages that call him a "charlatan" or "snake oil salesman" every time someone calls his name. There isn't even any substance to those claims. Most of them say "he said XP raw sockets were bad!! GET HIM!!". Or variations of "Spinrite doesn't fix prostate cancer. It must be snake oil software.". He has probably explained 10+ hours on SecurityNow the history behind Spinrite, what it does, what it doesn't, why it works, where it works, where it doesn't work and everything in between. But these bitter 20-something neckbeards are too busy for that. Let's jump the man that has been a programmer for longer than you have existed because he uses assembly or something ... GET HIM! I have no horse in this race. I'm just angry at the smug reply that inevitably follows every time him or his pages/products/projects are mentioned. As if everyone needs to be warned about this monster of a man for the unimaginable sins he committed 10+ years ago when he said something about XP raw sockets, or something else. If these people criticising him had produced a tenth of the content that he has produced they would have made many more mistakes. What are we to do now? Crucify Gibson because his Spinrite software doesn't perform miracles? Or because he has made a few mistakes here and there? Everyone else is perfect? Are we going to dig up the past history of everyone else who is mentioned too? And link to a page that enumerates the minor mistakes they have made over their entire career? Go dig up Github commits to shame people who introduced stupid bugs in open source software? (not that he has, just an example) Or how about we dig through their medium posts, conference presentations, and list and archive any possible mistakes. Then every time someone mentions them say "HEY LOOK EVERY BODY THIS PERSON HAS MADE 3 WHOLE MISTAKES SINCE 10 YEARS AGO, THEY ARE CLEARLY A MONSTER! STAY FAR AWAY.". It is completely uncalled for and has gotten real old. He doesn't come here to write something like this himself so I had to do it for him. Steve, if you ever read this, thank you for your work. Edit: fixed some typos, added some additional sentences ~~~ RankingMember Jesus man, I think you overestimate the amount of people with an axe to grind against Steve Gibson and you're letting whatever negativity, real or imagined, majorly distract from your original comment. ------ juskrey But who said increasing of serum levels of Vitamin D by pills intake will decrease mortality?? What about side effects of such massive UNCONDITIONAL top-down recommendations? ------ kieranmaine This older paper suggests vitamin D isn't as important - [https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/articl...](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/article- abstract/2478893?redirect=true). I'm not sure which is correct, but good to have an opposing view. ~~~ skoocda This paper suggests that increasing vitamin D intake from 800 IU/d to 2000 IU/d doesn't increase the risk of falling over and fracturing a bone. I wouldn't call that especially relevant, and it's definitely not an opposing view. ------ timewarrior This article recommends around 100 nmol/L. Most people are between 20-30, because they don't get enough Sun and do not take supplements. It gets really really bad when the number gets below 10 and it takes months to recover. Another Vitamin whose deficiency cause irreversible damage is B12. Folks, get both of these checked. ~~~ DigitalJack I happen to have a gene mutation that makes methylation of B12 inefficient. I never did well in chemistry or biology for that matter, but my limited understanding is that methylation is necessary for it to be useful. It turns out that you can buy methylated B12 called methylcobalamin. The more common form is cyanocobalamin, and is not very useful for people like myself. That is my understanding, if anyone here knows better or more, please correct me. ~~~ timewarrior Thanks for this added information. I discovered the same thing, with another family member where Methylcobalamin worked wonders and Cyanocobalamin didn't. One thing I would add is that Methylcobalamin needs to be injected to work best. If people do not have your gene mutation, they are better off taking Cyanocobalamin. PS: Whenever someone in family has major health issue which no one can get handle on - they reach out to me. My lifelong dream has been to cure Cancer using AI. Just started working on that. ~~~ pcthrowaway I thought the injection was typically hydroxocobalamin. Has this changed? ~~~ timewarrior Yep, they are and also the best form. Extremely unstable in capsules and oral supplements though. Methylcobalamin isn't very effective orally. However someone with a gene mutation doesn't have any choices. ~~~ AstralStorm It actually is quite effective, much like cyanocobalamin. (The usual form in supplements.) Needs just slightly higher dosage than hydroxocobalamin. ------ klht Everyone supplementing and doing their own tests should be careful to note the difference between nmol and ng/ml. 100 nmol = 40 ng/ml ng/ml is the most common measure in India and many other places. ~~~ tgb Uh, you should be careful too! There's some error in what you wrote too. Is that nmol/L that you mean? ~~~ cypherpunks01 What is the correct conversion? Quest, one of the dominant lab providers in the US, reports in ng/mL and I'm not sure how to interpret my result in nmol/L. ------ tw334 what is this saying in plain english? That we all need to take vitamin D supplements? ~~~ mborch or better, just spend more time outside. ~~~ rapsey The amount of disinformation commonly expressed about vitamin D is quite amazing. Bogus claims: 1\. Spend a couple of minutes outside and you will be OK. 2\. It is absorbed through the eyes. 3\. Deficiencies are rare. When in fact: 1\. Does not apply at any time when your body is covered up mostly. Wear trousers and a T-shirt and you've cut yourself off severely already. Add weather with less sun, sunscreen, and/or more clothes and you've cut yourself off almost entirely unless you are outside for very long periods of time. 2\. Fuck no. 3\. They are extremely common even in sunny places. In the developed world a majority of people are. ~~~ bbunix You'd think sunny places would fare better - however after moving to Key West from Montreal I discovered people here spent a lot of effort _avoiding_ the sun (skin cancer is big down here). ~~~ ianai As someone with fair skin, I’d be harming myself if I tried to get vitamin D from the sun. And very badly. ------ olympus Hmm. "Actions are urgently needed to protect the global population from vitamin D deficiency." I wish this sentence wasn't in the abstract, because it's the first thing the "science journalists" are going to latch on to. It's not like people's bones are snapping because everyone has rickets. Maybe not an urgent need, just something we should publish a revised RDA and diet guideline. We had a very different looking food pyramid when I was growing up, but changing it didn't drastically increase life expectancy. Everyone choking down extra vitamins isn't going to fix a non-existent problem. ------ BeetleB I see a number of comments about taking Vitamin D for mood and SAD issues. My goto site for supplements is [http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/snake-o...](http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/snake- oil-scientific-evidence-for-nutritional-supplements-vizsweet/) It essentially ranks supplements based on the amount of research there is to support the claim (so the same supplement can show up in multiple categories). You can see Vitamin D is backed by a lot of research for various ailments, but the category for which there is least evidence is mood related disorders. On a side note, be very wary of the supplements you take (in the US). There is virtually no oversight in their manufacture, and various groups' investigations have shown that the claimed dosage can be way, way off. And the inactive ingredients may be false as well. Relying on well known companies did not seem to make a difference. I recall an interview with a pharmacist at a hospital that had decided they test the supplements they had in stock - given that they were giving them to patients. They were rather shocked. If anyone has a good resource where a group tests different manufacturers' supplements and has some kind of reliability rating, I'd love to know. I pretty much stopped taking supplements when I saw how unreliable the claimed dosages were. ~~~ XzetaU8 For me Examine.com is the best source on supplements/vitamins take for example Vitamin D [https://examine.com/supplements/vitamin-d/](https://examine.com/supplements/vitamin-d/) as for your question regarding Supplement manufacturers test check labdoor [https://labdoor.com/](https://labdoor.com/) ~~~ BeetleB Looking at Vitamin D on Labdoor: >6 of the 19 products in this report exceeded their label claims by greater than 40%. >All 19 vitamin D supplements met or exceeded their claimed vitamin D3 content, ranging from +0 to +900.0 IU versus their stated label claims. >The average label variance in this testing batch was 22%. Wow. Let's look at melatonin: >Only half of the products tested (15 of 30) measured melatonin levels within 10% of their label claims. 7 products deviated from their claims for melatonin by at least 25%. 3 of those products recorded 40% or more melatonin than their label claims, and 1 product had less than 1% of its label claim for melatonin. Vitamin B12: >Overall, vitamin B12 measurements in this batch analysis ranged from 515 mcg to 6990 mcg per serving, deviating from label claims by an average of 27%. 3 products also recorded vitamin B6 and/or vitamin B9. 9 of the 13 products recorded more vitamin B12 than claimed, with one product recording as much as 74% of its label claim for vitamin B12. All products passed heavy metal screenings, and recorded vitamin B12 levels considered to be safe by the Institute of Medicine (IOM)1. ------ cjCamel Anecdotal I know, but I've heard of a couple of different areas where a a medical professional recommends Vitamin D supplements to their patient. Someone I know has been told to take vitamin D to help manage relapsing remitting multiple sclerosis[1] Another person has been recommended vitamin D to help with conception. Seems to pop up all over the place. [1] [https://www.mssociety.org.uk/ms-research/emerging- areas/vita...](https://www.mssociety.org.uk/ms-research/emerging- areas/vitamin-d) ~~~ TheSpiceIsLife Henry Osieki in the 9th edition of his book _The Nutrient Bible_ factors increasing demand for Vitamin D include: _alcohol, autoimmune reactive arthritis, bile problems, cancer (breast, prostate, colon, and skin). Crohn 's disease, cystic fibrosis, elderly individuals, hypoparathyroidism, intestinal disorders, insulin dependent diabetes, kidney disorders, lack of exposure to sun, mineral oil intake multiple sclerosis, obesity pancreatic disease, pregnancy, rickets, schizophrenia, smog exposure, ulcerative colitis, use of anti convulsants e.g. phenytoin and phenobarbital, steroid medication, vegetarianism._ Functions facilitated: _anti-proliferative effect - osteosarcoma, melanoma, colon and breast cancer, apoptosis, anti-inflammatory action, blood clotting, calcium and phosphate absorption and regulation, cofactor in synthesis of heat shock proteins, differentiates leukaemia cells and induces apoptosis, heart and muscle action, helps induce monocyte conversion to macrophages, increases bone strength, induces apoptosis in breast and prostate cancer, increases neurotrophic factor synthesis (NGF, GDNF, NF-3), increases the activity of tyrosine hydroxylase and choline acetyltransferase, increases neural glutathione levels, inhibits iNOS and TFN - alpha activity, immune-regulating properties, mineralisation of bone and teeth potent anti-proliferative agent in the colon, protects against neurotoxicity associated with ischaemia, reduces the risk of colorectal and prostate cancer, regulates cellular differentiation in intestinal cells, regulates or inhibits T-cell mediated immune response, regulation of calcium and phosphorous metabolism, selectively reduces interleukin 2 levels and proliferation of T cells, stimulates polyamine, stimulator of ornithine decarboxylase and spermidine acetyl transferase._ ------ urlgrey The USDA partnered with industry to develop a process for increasing Vitamin D levels in mushrooms by simply exposing them to ultraviolet light. Monterey Mushrooms has a video showing how this step was added to the packaging process: [http://www.montereymushrooms.com/nutrition/mushrooms-with- vi...](http://www.montereymushrooms.com/nutrition/mushrooms-with-vitamin-d/) ------ jazzy1990 Interesting admission. There's been recognition of subclinical vitamin D deficiencies for years in the professional athlete community, a segment of the population at higher risk of bone and tissue disorders: [http://journals.lww.com/cjsportsmed/Abstract/2010/09000/High...](http://journals.lww.com/cjsportsmed/Abstract/2010/09000/High_Prevalence_of_Vitamin_D_Insufficiency_in.9.aspx) [http://journals.humankinetics.com/doi/abs/10.1123/ijsnem.18....](http://journals.humankinetics.com/doi/abs/10.1123/ijsnem.18.2.204) There is no reason not to get tested given how easy it is to order online: [https://www.accesalabs.com/Vitamin-D- Test](https://www.accesalabs.com/Vitamin-D-Test) I've tried out a handful of supplements for Vitamin D but haven't landed on a good one. Has anyone tested, tried specific supplements, and then retested and documented results? ------ JustSomeNobody This makes it sound impossible for some people to get enough vitamin D from sun and food without supplements. If you're fair skinned and living in northern climates, you'll be deficient even with a healthy diet given that you can't be out in the sun that long without burning. Is the human body that defective? ~~~ PacketPaul Wouldn’t it be if you are dark skinned not faired skin? ~~~ JustSomeNobody This is true, yes. But really both have issues. It takes much longer in the sun for a dark skinned person to get enough exposure to produce a healthy amount of D. But the fair skinned person burns readily, so they can't stay in the sun long without protection which would inhibit getting enough sun. ------ INTPenis Living in scandinavia I've taken vitamin D every winter. But lately started taking it all year. I've been sloppy and it seems to coincide with periods of poor energy and a bad mood. I'm not sure if the energy and mood precede the drop in vitamin use or vice versa. But either way I think it's good to supplement if you live up north. ------ macawfish If you're looking for a better way to get vitamin D from supplements, try drops instead of pills. Each drop contains ~1000 IU, so you could get around 40,000 IU with just a dropper-full... For most of us, a week's worth of 40,000 IU/day could really be a boost. "Taking 50,000 international units (IU) a day of vitamin D for several months has been shown to cause toxicity. This level is many times higher than the Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) for most adults of 600 IU of vitamin D a day.Feb 5, 2015" ([https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition- and-h...](https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-healthy- eating/expert-answers/vitamin-d-toxicity/faq-20058108)) ~~~ macawfish I'm remembering when I did this, I made sure to take epsom salt baths to absorb magnesium! ------ timewarrior One point of caution: Anyone who takes Vitamin D supplement, make sure you take 25-Hydroxy (Calcifediol) and not the active form - 1,25 dihydroxy (Calcitriol). Active form has severe side effects and is not supposed to be used for supplementation unless in you have kidney problem which prevent metabolizing 25-Hydroxy. ~~~ theprotocol I thought all D2 and D3 supplements would be ergocalciferol and cholecalciferol, respectively, while calcitriol is what gets tested to assess blood levels. Do any supplements actually contain calcitriol? ~~~ timewarrior Medical system in India is a mess of kickbacks. A Doctor gave my cousin a prescription of Calcitriol because it was much more expensive. Led to major side effects which went away as soon as it was stopped. Supplements don't have it. However that warning was for someone who goes out of way to acquire Calcitriol. ------ sitkack One of the many great videos on the subject D is for Debacle - The Crucial Story of Vitamin D and Human Health, [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3pK0dccQ38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3pK0dccQ38) ------ richardknop I always wondered about this. Since I was very young, let's say after age 14 or so I rarely travelled for summer vacation and was living in Europe and had almost no vitamin D from sunlight (working as software engineer and being a nerd so all my hobbies were indoors). I have always felt like I missed having a good time at a beach while sun was shining (I remember it from family vacations when I was very young). Since then I have spent couple of months in a country near equator and gotten lots of (hours per day) sunlight. I feel healthier and happier now. I also used to have deficiency of vitamin B when I was very young. I remember I had to eat lots of fish oil to replenish my B complex (recommended by my doctor). ------ hollander Several years ago I read an article on Facebook about vitamin D, and because I was in pain and tried many things like this, I read more about it, and started using 2000 IU daily. In about two weeks I felt a lot better. Later that year I was on holiday in the mediterrenean and noticed how much better I felt after a morning in the sun. This made me decide to take even more, so I increased use to 6000 IU/d, and I felt even better. Several weeks ago I had my blood tested, and I came out under 100nmol, which shocked me. I changed pills immediately, and am going to test again. I want levels to be around 120, so I'm going to test once again. I'm going to call my docter right now in fact. ~~~ macawfish I recommend 1000 IU drops. They contain 1000 IU in a single drop, literally. You can get them off the shelf at my local health foods co-op. I've taken 40,000 IU before in a single day (I read that was a safe upper limit for most people). It felt amazing. It also helped me process built up emotions from winter darkness and depression. That day I took 40000IU I literally wept, then felt relief like none other, and a lightness of being. Also, by the way, people under stress might appreciate some vitamin B complex. There's a reason why they put vitamin B in those 5 hour energy drinks: it helps our bodies cope with the stress of that much caffeine. ~~~ hollander Be careful with that kind of dose! To compensate for insufficiency, it's totally OK, but I wouldn't take it daily. You may start suffering from calcification of the bones. This cannot be undone. ~~~ macawfish Its good to be cautious. I did some research to come up with this upper limit as an amount to take on a given day, and also wouldn't be worried about taking this daily for a week since I live in Minnesota and am chronically deficient. "Taking 50,000 international units (IU) a day of vitamin D for several months has been shown to cause toxicity. This level is many times higher than the Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) for most adults of 600 IU of vitamin D a day.Feb 5, 2015" ([https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition- and-h...](https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-h...)) ------ pascalxus I read another post somewhere that said all you need is 12 minutes of direct sunlight to maximize your Vitamin D intake. It's because your body can only absorb so much vitamin D at one time, from the Sun. As for food products, there aren't that many natural sources of vitamin D. Milk is fortified with vitamin D but doesn't come with it naturally. Given how few sources of vitamin D there are: [http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=nutrient&dbid=110](http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=nutrient&dbid=110) I don't see how our species could have evolved to depend on vitamin D (other than being outdoors). ~~~ drzaiusapelord It drives me crazy that popular brands of soy and almond milk don't have vitamin D. I've long moved off real milk because its really calories dense and gives me gas. Now I'm missing out on one of the few easy sources of vitamin d. ------ mattferderer I found the podcast Science Vs very helpful in understanding this topic - [https://gimletmedia.com/episode/vitamins-supplements- worth/](https://gimletmedia.com/episode/vitamins-supplements-worth/) I was recommended Vitamin D by the wife of a Chiropractor. I do 2000IU somewhat daily to every other day in the winter & 5000IU if I feel a cold coming on with some extra zinc. This has made a significant improvement in my ability to fend off colds. That said, I do try to exercise a few times a week & eat as reasonably healthy as one can do in the far north midwest of America. ------ serbrech For Vitamin D 1IU is 0.025mcg. 8000IU = 200mcg My box of vitamin shows a Vitamin D3 content on 5mcg/pill (noted as 100% of recommended daily intake). Time to change pill I guess... ~~~ dbeardsl Off by a factor of 10. 0.025mcg * 8000 = 20mcg ~~~ serbrech no... 200 is correct. ------ sharpenthesaw This is fake news. I'll explain why I think so. Please counter me if I'm wrong. >>This piece of news is a literal "copy-paste" of the abstract of the article "Big Vitamin D Mistake - BVDM" BVDM is an article published by a Greek group. About the population from Finland. BVDM has 2 premises and 2 conclusions. >Premise 1: There is a correlation (not causation) reported recently in Finland of country-wide vit. D supplementation and lower Diabetes Mellitus type 1 incidence. >Premise 2: There was a study published in America (Meta Analysis of All Cause Mortality and Vitamin D - MAACVD) that investigated deaths that had the lab values of vitamin D available. The main finding of the study was: Vit. D levels of >30ng/mL is probably better than <9ng/mL, correlated with a lower risk of death (hazard ratio of 1.6 to 2.2).* THESE ARE THE PREMISES AND NO MORE. Here are their magical conclusions: >Conclusion 1: The right level of vitamin D is 100ng/mL. This is apparently extrapolated from a subgroup analysis in MAACVD. I find this extrapolation shocking because: 1- this finding wasn't considered significant enough to be published in the abstract by the original American group. 2- subgroup analyses shouldn't be extrapolated. >Conclusion 2: in order to make sure everyone gets this alleged "correct vit. D levels", here are the doses of supplementation that everyone should get. >> As you can see, the conclusions are far outside the realm of possibilities offered by the premises. What the Greek authors did was nitpick a couple of minor points in some random published studies and synthesize them into a magical conclusion of how much more Vit D everyone should take (more than 3x the current recommended amount in some ages). This is sensationalism. I'm sorry to see such poor material to be presented as science by "scientists" and "scientific journals". >>Please correct me if I'm wrong. *PS: I wasn't able to read the MAACVD full article, it wasn't free online. In these kinds of articles, the axis of the study is presented in the abstract, and the most significant findings are never left out. If someone has access to the full text, please share it with me and this forum. ------ sliverstorm Anybody have tips on balancing all the cofactors? You need other things to absorb & use the vitamin D. Some kind of multivitamin that focused only on D and its cofactors might be handy, without going whole-hog to the "everything" multivitamin popular today. ------ matco11 Vitamin D and Alzheimer’s [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4153851/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4153851/) ------ OldSchoolJohnny The Vitamin D council page answers nearly every question I've seen in these posts: [https://www.vitamindcouncil.org/](https://www.vitamindcouncil.org/) ------ tgb Is it standard for medical papers to write values with four significant figures when they appear to have less than one significant figure worth of precision? This is an actual question. ~~~ Sean1708 Are you talking about the abstract or is there something in the actual paper you're talking about? Because I can't personally see anything in the abstract to suggest that the values quoted to 4 s.f. only have 1 s.f. of precision. ~~~ tgb Yes, the abstract. One sentence cites a result suggesting that 8895 IU/d is necessary to reach >= 50nmol/L and the next another that 6201 IU/d is necessary to reach 75 nmol/L. Clearly these aren't compatible to even 1 significant figure. Now, of course this is a matter of accuracy and not of precision, but do you really believe someone's 4 sig figs of precision is at all justified when they disagree with another person's 4 sig figs to such an extent? It's possible, I guess! But I'm betting if you look at the original study you only have 1 or maybe 2 significant figures that are actually justified. Look further at the paper where the 8895 number comes from [1]. That's the only number reported to more than 2 sig figs in the paper and comes in this context [emphasis mine]: "It also _estimated_ that 8895 IU of vitamin D per day may be needed to accomplish that 97.5% of individuals achieve serum 25(OH)D values of 50 nmol/L or more. As this dose is far beyond the range of studied doses, _caution is warranted when interpreting this estimate_. Regardless, the _very high estimate illustrates_ that the dose is well in excess of the current RDA of 600 IU per day and the tolerable upper intake of 4000 IU per day [1]." The two figures don't even show half the range needed to see this value and make it pretty clear that this is a laughable amount of precision to report. To make this clear: the value reported is the intercept of the dashed red line with the 50nmol/L line in the second figure -- which has been extrapolated out to a value almost _three times as large as the highest dose used in any experiment_. And the extrapolation is done on a curve that is getting very close to level at that point so even a _minor_ error in dose response would cause a large error in reported dose. Frankly, after looking at this, I don't think the originally posted article should have quoted this number in its abstract - the point of this paper seems to be to show that the standard value of 600 IU/day is unsupported form the data, not to suggest that their 8895 IU/day is well supported. Consider the most well-studied nutritional number we ever see: the daily caloric intake! It's never given more than 2 sig figs and often just 1! And this study is making the argument that the daily recommendations for this are off by a factor of 10x. It'll take a lot to convince me that any number in nutrition can be reported to 4 significant figures, and even then I expect that it would be useless since inter-person variation is going to cause at least a 1% difference (probably more like 25% differences like calories just for men/women differences). [1] [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4210929/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4210929/) ------ k3a I think that vitamin D defficiency may have contributed to start of my Multiple Sclerosis! I used to sit mostly inside all summer programming. So be careful. ------ majani Is this specific to North America? As someone who lives along the equator, I think it's impossible to get too little sun exposure in these parts. ~~~ adventured The study was about Finland. Scandinavia and northern countries broadly often have a variety of bad health effects from very low VitD levels (including eg very high rates of multiple sclerosis). Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Canada, UK, Germany are among the nations with the highest rates of multiple sclerosis, heavily due to their low VitD. If you don't get enough sun (a minority of people anywhere on the planet do or can), Vitamin D can be an important supplement no matter where you live. It's well worth it to have a simple blood test done to get your levels checked, if you can at some point, just to know where you stand. ------ robg D3 is the more active form that's more readily absorbed. I've found the Metagenics brand to be the best. ------ justin_d Anyone who thinks they are D deficient should just go to the doctor and get your blood tested. ------ debacle > 8895 IU/d This is double what I'm taking. The US RDA is 1/10th of this amount. ~~~ ProblemFactory Yes, that's the argument in the article: that the RDA is far too low. ------ dharma1 How do you get your levels checked in the UK if you have private insurance? ~~~ longwave I was just looking this up after reading this article and discovered that an NHS lab can send you a test kit in the post for £28, which will likely be cheaper than any private option. [http://www.vitamindtest.org.uk/](http://www.vitamindtest.org.uk/) ~~~ dharma1 thanks! ------ amrx101 One con of being in a Tropical country is that you don't have to worry about your Vitamin D intake. The sun roasts you every year in the pre Monsoon heat. ------ tastythrowaway so does that mean we need more or less vitamin D? ~~~ spuz More; a lot more. ------ guelo This is one of the reasons I hate dermatologist's panic against sun exposure. Vitamin D deficiency kills way more people than skin cancer. ~~~ mohaine My dermatologist actually told me to get more sun, but then I have psoriasis. I believe his exact recommendation was one beach vacation every early Feb. ~~~ tathougies Does insurance pay for that? :) ------ trhway not to mention apparent connection to autism. Best example - Somali immigrant populations concentrated in Sweden and Minnesota have unnaturally high child autism rates and extremely low vitamin D levels (very dark skin, weak Sun, a lot of clothes covering almost the whole body most of the year due to the cold climate). Another Swedish study found, though much smaller effect, uptick in autism rates among children whose 3rd trimester, when the brain develops the fastest, fell onto the winter. ------ basicplus2 Sufficient vitamin D is gained primarily from Sun exposure.. typically between 10am and 2pm, I have read that at certain latitudes and times of year the required window is considerably less but cannot find a reference. [http://www.return2health.net/articles/does-vitamin-d- really-...](http://www.return2health.net/articles/does-vitamin-d-really-come- from-the-sun/) ~~~ tathougies This is a very caucasian centric viewpoint. The fact is that if you live in higher latitudes and have dark skin, you physically cannot absorb enough vitamin D from sunlight during the winter months. While it is physically possible during the summer, it is not practical to spend hours sunbathing. ~~~ basicplus2 That's a very coloured centric viewpoint. The fact is that the majority of people of planet earth can go out in the sunshine at the right time of day and get 80-90% the vitamin D they need and get the rest from a balanced diet. ~~~ tathougies No that is not true at all. In today's world people of all races are living everywhere, so we should give recommendations based off a person's individual health. It is simply not true that a brown skinned person can absorb enough vitamin D from the sun in the northern latitudes. I said the above viewpoint was caucasian centric because it assumed that everyone could get enough vitamin D from the sun. My response is not 'coloured'-centric because I did not say that no one could get enough from the sun, only that your absorption depends on your skin color. My response was not a generalization, unlike the comment I replied to.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
I'm going to interview Andrew Warner of Mixergy, what should I ask? - giangbiscan http://asable.com/2010/05/interviewing-andrewwarner-live-fri-june-4th-12pm-pst-httpmixergy-comlive/ ====== pavs Q: What was his most favorite interview and what was his least favorite interview. Q: Is Mixergy profitable, if not what are his plans to make it profitable? Or what are his future plans for mixergy? Q: Have you done any "paid" interviews? Q: Why mostly video interviews? What if someone is willing to do an interview but can only do text interview (my email or IM), will you be interested in such interviews? (I didn't check to see if you did these interviews). Q: Who would you like to interview, but haven't got around in doing it yet? Q: Anyone declined your interview offer? Thats all for me. Its only fair we ask him tough questions. :) ~~~ giangbiscan Great questions, pavs. Thanks so much for putting a lot of thought into this. Really appreciate it. ------ nanexcool I know Andrew always asks about numbers and finance data. He's been very open with his last business, but I have yet to see him disclose data about Mixergy. I'd like to see some Mixergy financials. ~~~ giangbiscan :) a very good point. Let's ask him the hard question! Thanks. ------ NEPatriot Would he ever consider angel investing? Or in any way connecting startups to money? ~~~ giangbiscan Thanks, NEPatriot. That's an unusual question. I have never thought of that. Thanks. ------ switch would he consider starting a company again instead of just interviewing people who've done it. ~~~ giangbiscan Thank you. I have added your question to the list.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ask HN: Why don't cities/states create their own ride-sharing platform? - cheapsteak Don't dispatch networks seem a lot like infrastructure? The main barrier doesn't seem to be technology, but network effects, and to a lesser extent, government regulation.<p>Why don't cities/provinces/states make their own?<p>Adoption wouldn't be an issue, following government code wouldn't be an issue, would probably bring in quite a bit of revenue.<p>Are any cities doing this already? ====== venning It's not entirely clear yet what long-term effect ridesharing will have on city traffic [1] and cities are very invested in keeping that low. Buses and trains and such keep that traffic lower, at least according to current data. Of course, if ridesharing proves itself to _reduce_ traffic, I wouldn't be surprised to find cities experimenting with public-private partnerships to implement them locally. We have something very successful in DC called Capital Bikeshare that is focused largely on reducing traffic. But, unlike bikesharing, if Uber and kin prove out ridesharing as valuable to DC, I cannot see what the local government would add with their own system, something that I know the DC government _does_ consider. Capital Bikeshare is so successful precisely _because_ the government is involved. They can convert a couple street parking spaces or a traffic intersection median into a bikeshare without asking anyone, and have done so with no real complaint. [1] [http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/is-uber-making-nyc- rush-...](http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/is-uber-making-nyc-rush-hour- traffic-worse/) [2] [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_Bikeshare](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_Bikeshare) ~~~ WCityMike Chicago is doing something very similar with Divvy. [1] [1] [https://www.divvybikes.com/](https://www.divvybikes.com/) ~~~ tedmiston That sounds similar to BCycle [1]. Is it a branded version for Chicago? In Cincinnati we have Red Bike [2]. 1: [https://www.bcycle.com/](https://www.bcycle.com/) 2: [http://www.cincyredbike.org/](http://www.cincyredbike.org/) ------ pwman Washington DC has been doing it as long as I can remember: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slugging](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slugging) Basically pickup someone random so you can utilize HOV. ~~~ codegeek I actually used this when I used to work in DC but lived in NoVA. Really good stuff and helpful. You basically get a free ride to the city and many times almost close to where you work. ------ edwhitesell Some do. Michigan has had it since 1974 [0]. Of course, it was a bit less dependent on technology when it started. [0] [http://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,1607,7-151-9615_11228_11234--...](http://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,1607,7-151-9615_11228_11234---,00.html) ------ alahaitu Helsinki tried this with their Kutsuplus service, but it ended up proving too expensive and underused for being publicly funded. They are now looking for private companies to run a similar service. [http://www.wired.com/2013/10/on-demand-public- transit/](http://www.wired.com/2013/10/on-demand-public-transit/) ------ BjoernKW Because they're clueless and they're living in the past. There are notable exceptions but for the most part this applies to public administration in general. From their point of view, why should they try to find novel solutions to evident problems while they can much more easily just "regulate away" the potential for such solutions (for now, that is) and claim the problem doesn't exist in the first place? Public administration is notoriously bad at both embracing change and long-term planning because its stakeholders' outlook is measured in legislative periods. ------ barney54 City planners are enamored with building stuff. That's why they want to build subways and light rail systems instead of bus rapid transport. Building stuff is more permanent and facilitates other building--like apartment building or office building near stations. With IT dispatch systems they aren't building anything physical and aren't affecting the built environment and all their training is about affecting the built environment. ------ pjc50 They might yet do this, but local government tends to be terrible with IT. It's more likely that compromises will be reached to allow Uber to operate, such as requirements for insurance or real employment contracts. ------ phantom_oracle Nobody has mentioned this, but possibly relevant is the issue of lawsuits: If a class-action is brought against an Uber, it can be sued out of existence (think like a major case that affects their publicity and kills the business). Even though a local government can become bankrupt, it doesn't happen quite that often. It is also easier to police a small subset of bus/train drivers and register a known subset of taxi-drivers than having to manage a work-force of in-out ride-sharing drivers. Ride-sharing also doesn't seem that efficient, as I've never read/heard of an awesome/PR+ story of Uber/Lyft reducing the traffic congestion in New York/London (known as congested cities). ------ ruraljuror When driving on the highway recently, I noticed a standard governmental sign which had a 1-800 number to call for ride sharing. Your post made me think of this, so I did some quick googling of my state and the surrounding states. It seems all of them have ridesharing programs and regulations to promote ridesharing to some degree. Of course these are not sophisticated technological platforms with mobile apps. Personally I was intrigued by the possibilities for user experience... what would it be like to get a ride by calling one of these phone numbers? ------ zurn here's one: [http://www.theguardian.com/cities/2014/jul/10/helsinki- share...](http://www.theguardian.com/cities/2014/jul/10/helsinki-shared- public-transport-plan-car-ownership-pointless) ------ w__m Fuel is government-taxed. More traffic jams = more fuel = more tax. Forget long-term thinking. MORE TAX. NOW. I agree with @BjoernKW also. ~~~ dang "Please don't use uppercase for emphasis." [https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html) ------ ericnolte Unions ~~~ wycx Neoliberalism	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
State of ICO ratings in 2018 - OlegPyatakov https://pyatakov.com/blog/state-of-ico-ratings-in-2018-part-3/ ====== OlegPyatakov This is the final part of examination of various popular ICO rating services in which I dig into how the same ICOs are being rated.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Scientists See Promise in Deep-Learning Programs - mtgx http://nytimes.com/2012/11/24/science/scientists-see-advances-in-deep-learning-a-part-of-artificial-intelligence.html ====== bravura Since I see some misunderstanding about deep learning, let me explain the fundamental idea: It's about reusing intermediate work. The intuition is let's say I told you to write a complicated computer program. Let's say I told you that you could use routines and subroutines, but you couldn't use subsubroutines, or deeper levels of abstraction. In this restricted case, you _could_ write any computer program, but you would have to use a lot of code-copying. With arbitrary levels of abstraction, you could do code reuse much more elegantly, and your code would be more compact. Here is a more formal description: If you have a complicated non-linear function, you can describe it similarly to a circuit. If you restrict the depth of the circuit, you can in principle represent any function, but you need a really wide (exponentially wide) circuit. This can lead to overfitting. (Occam's Razor) By comparison, with a deep circuit, you can represent arbitrary functions _compactly_. Standard SVMs and random forests can be shown, mathematically, to have a limited number of layers (circuit depth). It turns out that expressing deep models using neural networks is quite convenient. I gave an introduction to deep learning in 2009 that describes these intuitions: <http://vimeo.com/7977427> ~~~ tgflynn _If you restrict the depth of the circuit, you can in principle represent any function, but you need a really wide (exponentially wide) circuit._ Are you sure it's exponential ? If you look at binary functions (ie. boolean circuits) any such function can be represented by a single layer function whose size is linear in the number of gates of the original function (I think it's 3 or 4 variables per gate) by converting to conjunctive normal form. Of course it's not obvious that a similar scaling exists for non-binary functions but I'd be a bit surprised if increasing depth led to an exponential gain in representational efficiency. ~~~ bravura I am not _sure_ in the sense of: If I were dropped on a desert island, I could derive a water-tight proof of this result from scratch. I am _confident_ , though, based upon my reading of secondary sources written by people that I trust. From one of Bengio's works (<http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~bengioy/papers/ftml.pdf>): "More interestingly, there are functions computable with a polynomial-size logic gates circuit of depth k that require exponential size when restricted to depth k − 1 (Hastad, 1986)." ~~~ tgflynn I think my argument was mistaken. The CNF form I was thinking of involves adding unknown variables so it doesn't actually allow you to compute the function in one step. ------ claudiusd I'm not an expert on this, but I think this article overstates the relationship between "deep learning methods" and "neural networks". Neural nets have been around forever and, in the feed-forward case, are actually fairly basic statistical classifiers. Deep learning, on the other hand, is about using layers of classifiers to progressively recognize higher-order concepts. In computer vision, for example, the first layer of classifiers may be recognizing things like edges, blocks of color, and other simple concepts, while progressive things may be recognizing things like "arm", "desk", or "cat" from the lower-order concepts. There's a book I read a while ago that was super-interesting and digs in to how one researcher leveraged knowledge about how the human brain works to develop one of these deep learning methods: "On Intelligence" by Jeff Hawkins ([http://www.amazon.com/On-Intelligence-Jeff- Hawkins/dp/B000GQ...](http://www.amazon.com/On-Intelligence-Jeff- Hawkins/dp/B000GQLCVE/)) ~~~ wookietrader No. All currently used deep learning algorithms are special cases of neural networks. The reason why this is called "deep" learning is that before 2006, no one knew how to efficiently train neural nets with more than 1 or 2 hidden layers. (Or could, because of computing power.) Thanks to a breakthrough by Dr Hinton, this is now the case. But all models used are neural nets. It's just that a vast amount new algorithms for training them have been developed in the last years and people came up with new ideas on how to use them. But it is all neural nets. And that's the whole beauty of it. ~~~ sjg007 What was the breakthrough? ~~~ wookietrader The breakthrough was the insight that while you cannot train a deep neural net at once with backprop, you can train one layer after the other greedily with an unsupervised objective and later fine tune it with standard backprop. Years later, Swiss researchers (Dan Ciresan et al) found that you can train neural nets with backprop, but you need lots of training time and lots of data. You can only achieve this by making use GPUs, otherwise it would take months. ~~~ iskander You can't train fully connected deep models with backprop, or at least not easily or well. An alternative solution to this problem is spatial weight pooling (Yann's convolutional networks) which play well with SGD. ~~~ wookietrader Yes you can. Check out the publications by Ciresan on MNIST, have a look at Hinton's dropout paper or at the Kaggle competition that used deep nets. Or try it yourself and spend a descent amount of time on hyper parameter tuning. :) ~~~ iskander Which of Ciresan's projects are you referring to? Everything I've seen by him uses convolutional layers of some sort. ------ theschwa Geoffrey Hinton, mentioned in the article, has his class on neural networks available on Coursera <https://www.coursera.org/course/neuralnets> ~~~ djacobs Hinton was one of the people who invented backpropagation, which has let neural nets be as powerful as they are today. Somehow, despite his brilliance and intimate familiarity with backpropagation, his explanation of it is stunningly clear and simple. I'm thoroughly enjoying this course and recommend it to anyone who wants to build their own neural networks. ~~~ T-A "If you can't explain something simply, you don't know enough about it. You do not really understand something unless you can explain it to your grandmother." - Some German dude :) ~~~ hcrisp C.S. Lewis? "Any fool can write learned language: the vernacular is the real test. If you can't turn your faith into it, then either you don't understand it or you don't believe it." ------ dave_sullivan For those looking to learn about these techniques, I'd highly recommend the deep learning theano tutorials. Hinton has a class on Coursera--I think it would be very confusing for beginners, but it has really great material. Also, I run the "SF Neural Network Aficionados" meetup in san francisco and will be giving a workshop in January about building your own DBN in python, so feel free to check that out if you're in SF (although space was an issue last time). ~~~ stewie2 How is "deep learning" different from "neural network"? ~~~ Yoshua The idea of having multiple levels of representation (deep learning) goes beyond neural networks. A good example is the recent work (award-winning at NIPS 2012) on sum-product networks, which are graphical models whose partition function is tractable by construction. Several important things have been added since 2006 (when deep learning was deemed to begin) to the previous wave of neural networks research, in particular powerful unsupervised learning algorithms (which allow very successful semi-supervised and transfer learning - 2 competitions won in 2011), often incorporating advanced probabilistic models with latent variables, a better understanding (although much more remains to be done) of the optimization difficulty of training gradient-based systems through many composed non-linearities, and other improvements to regularize better (such as the recent dropouts) and to rationally and efficiently select hyper-parameters (random sampling and Bayesian optimization). It is also true that sheer improvements in computing power and amounts of training data are in part responsible for the impressively good results recently obtained in speech recognition (see recent New York Times article, 24 nov, J. Markoff) and object recognition (see NIPS 2012 paper by Krizhesky et al). ------ gdahl I was involved in the speech recognition work mentioned in the article and I led the team that won the Merck contest if anyone has any questions about those things. I also spend some time answering any machine learning question I feel qualified to answer at metaoptimize.com/qa ~~~ lbenes Congratulations on winning the Merck contest! That was an impressive demonstration. About 12 years ago, I switched from a Bio major to CS. I hoped to major in AI, but after taking 2 upper level classes, one focusing on symbolic AI and the other focusing on Bayesian networks, I was completely turned off. Our brains are massively parallel redundant systems that share practically nothing in common with modern Von Neumann CPUs. It seemed the only logical approach to AI was to study neurons. Then try to discover the basic functional units that they form in simple biological life forms like insects or worms. Keep reverse engineer brains of higher and higher life forms until we reach human level AI. Whenever I tried to relate my course material in AI to what was actually going on in a brain, my profs met my questions with disdain and disinterest. I learned more about neurons in my high school AP Bio class than either of my AI classes. In their defense, we've come a long ways, with new tools like MRIs and neural probes. The answers are all locked up in our heads. It took nature millions of years of natural selection to engineer our brains. If we want to crack this puzzle in our lifetimes, we to copy nature, not reinvent it from scratch. Purely mathematical theories like Bayesian statistics that have no basis in Biological systems might work in specific cases, but are not going to give us strong AI. Are these new deep learning algorithms for neural networks rooted in biological research? Do we have to necessary tools yet to start reversing engineering the basic functional units of the brain? ~~~ fuelfive We think so (<http://vicarious.com/>), but we are obviously biased. ------ taliesinb I played around for a while with writing an RBM learner in Go (RBMs are a particular instance of deep learning which Hinton specializes in). More an experiment than anything else, but for anyone who is interested: <https://github.com/taliesinb/gorbm>. I don't claim there aren't bugs, and there is no documentation. The consensus I've picked up from AI-specializing friends is that there are a lot of subtle gotchas and tricks (which Hinton and friends know about but don't necessarily advertise) without which RBMs are a non-starter for many problems. Which I suppose is pretty much standard for esoteric machine learning. ------ jhartmann Deep belief networks are extremely powerful, we are finally getting to the point where we don't need to do tons of feature engineering to make useful complex classifiers. Used to be you would have to spend a ton of time doing data analysis and feature extraction to get useful and robust classifiers. Of course the usefulness of those sorts of networks were limited by how well you did the feature extraction. Now you train networks with much more minimally processed data, and get great results out of them. ------ mbq Since the fall of AI, there are two groups of people in this topic -- one trying to make some reproducible, robust results with well defined algorithms and second importing random ideas from the first group onto some questionably defined ANN model and getting all the hype because of the "neural" buzzword. "Deep learning" is actually called boosting and has been around for years. ~~~ robrenaud Unsupervised pre-training is fundamentally different than boosting. Boosting is a clever way of modelling a conditional distribution. The insight behind the success of pre-training is that, for many perceptual tasks, having a good model of the input (rather than the input->output mapping) is key. I have no delusion that the algorithms that work for training deep networks are anything like what the brain actually does, but I don't care. There are many tasks where deep neural nets are state of the art. ~~~ osdf Not to argue with you, robrenaud, but Hinton himself writes in their 2006 paper 'A Fast Learning Algorithm for Deep Belief Nets': _The greedy algorithm bears some resemblance to boosting in its repeated use of the same “weak” learner, but instead of reweighting each data vector to ensure that the next step learns something new, it re- represents it._ I guess that most people however would not think of this interpretation of greedily pretraining deep networks :). (I wonder if mbq had this in mind). In the same article your point about good models of the input is mentioned, too (only copy&paste a small part of the paragraph): _Unsupervised methods, however, can use very large unlabeled data sets, and each case may be very high-dimensional, thus providing many bits of constraint on a generative model._ The 2006 paper is really an amazing read in my opinion. ------ mturmon Pegged to the NIPS conference next week: <http://nips.cc/Conferences/2012/> ------ Create _The students were also working with a relatively small set of data;_ ANN-s are overfitted more often than not. ------ radarsat1 Are there any good C++ or Python SciPy libraries for building and training deep learning networks? ~~~ jhartmann There is a C++/Cuda library with a python frontend that I am starting to play with that is from one of the guys who works with Hinton. It is written by Alex Krizhevsky and has lots of tools for training feed forward networks with lots of different connection topologies and neuron types. If I am not mistaken this was the library that was used in the recent Kaggle drug competition that is referenced in the article. There is some good starting point documentation here as well to look into, as long as you know enough about the mechanics of Artificial Neural Networks it has some really interesting stuff in there. Here is the link: <http://code.google.com/p/cuda-convnet/> ------ teeja Is there a good place to plug-in to get an overview of what (has been and is) going on in this area, without having to dive in all the way? An overview of the concepts, not the nuts and bolts, not the heavy-lifting. ~~~ pilooch the one overview I've found the most useful is <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmNOAtZIgIk> (Bay Area Vision Meeting: Unsupervised Feature Learning and Deep Learning by Andrew Ng in April 2011). ------ mikecane Can someone contrast what's in that article with what Jeff Hawkins' Numenta is attempting?	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
AmazonBasics products are going up in flames, but are still on the market - jc713 https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/10/21431085/amazon-basics-amazonbasics-dangerous-flammable-products ====== greenyoda Previous discussion of original source (CNN): [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24431959](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24431959) ------ Waterluvian Is there a list of the accused items anywhere?	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Can't fix it, can't sell it: HP gives PC business to investors - stevep2007 http://www.networkworld.com/article/2692098/opensource-subnet/cant-fix-it-cant-sell-it-hp-gives-pc-business-to-investors.html ====== stevep2007 HP has thrown in its printer business to give its PC spin out some cover while it restructures. Hewlett-Packard’s breakup into two companies in a tax-free distribution of shares, as reported by the Wall Street Journal yesterday, was the company's third choice to save itself. The first two – a turnaround and the sale of the business – haven’t worked. According to Re/Code, HP approached both Dell and Lenovo to acquire the business and were rebuffed.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
After 7.5 years, Firefox finally adds line numbers to view-source: - ecaron https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=246620 ====== jrockway Well, nobody sent them a patch until two months ago, nobody added tests until a month ago, and nobody fixed the broken tests until yesterday. So the title should be more like, "Firefox adds line numbers to view-source the day after someone implemented them correctly." This is how Free Software projects work; people that want a feature implement it. It's great that you want something and it's possible that your desires will line up with those of someone who can easily implement them ("oh yeah, great idea, i want line numbers too"), but more often than not, the people with experience on some project are more interested in some deeper problem. If you're hacking on the JS JIT, line numbers just aren't important to you; you never "view source" in the browsers and may not even run the browser all that often. It's likely that your "extracurricular hacking" will be on something like a better test harness or better Emacs integration with your development workflow. It is hard to go from being a user of software to a developer of that software, especially in this day and age of easily-downloadable TV shows, movies, and /b/ memes. That's why it takes 7.5 years to find someone interested in hacking on this feature, them getting themselves up to speed on Mozilla, and then finally implementing an acceptable patch. It would be nice if someone got paid to work on this sort of stuff, but users are comparing Firefox to its competition with things like Javascript benchmarks and WebGL conformance, not whether the browser has line numbers in view source. That's not to say they're not important, but rather very easy to deprioritize when the people that know how to implement that quickly also know how to implement "bigger wins" more quickly. Ultimately, a free software project lacks feature X because _you_ haven't added it yet. Remember that when you submit complainy titles to HN. Don't rely on someone else to make your life better because you're going to be pretty disappointed when you realize that you don't matter much to the world at large. Everyone else has other things to do too. ~~~ alinajaf I think your point is that if you want a feature implemented in an OS project, you should implement it yourself. In practice, we're web developers, and it's much easier to just pick up google chrome than it is to get set up with developing firefox, getting into the code and implementing the change. That being said, I'm seriously considering cowboying up and contributing to get the ruby tag implemented in firefox. This is not because I use Firefox myself, but my users do, and faking it with js/css is brittle as hell. ~~~ zobzu You can do so, however, note that you still need acceptance for mainline. Obvious things such as line numbers, are obviously accepted once implemented properly. Note: the below comment is actually inaccurate, I though ruby tag was the language (as the author mentioned js as alternative). Keeping it for the comments discussing it, but keep in mind I was actually wrong. Things like a ruby tag might be more complicated than you'd think. You see, the main difference between Firefox and Chrome (yeah, it's not the UI! ;P) is ideology. Firefox folks believe in a standard and compatible web. Chrome folks believe in .. implement whatever we think is faster than what we have (or /flamebait hat on, whatever helps Google make money/adverts/lock-in users). Supporting ruby might fall in the "but it's not standard" "it splits the web" category. And that's be correct, in my opinion. So you might want to check on that before actually getting the code done, unless you plan to fork. ~~~ jrockway _Chrome folks believe in .. implement whatever helps Google make money/adverts/lock-in users._ Citation needed. ~~~ cytzol While I can't provide a citation, I believe that the contrapositive is true: _if it doesn't help Google, it's not going to be implemented_. Right now, Google's interests are aligned with a standardised, compatible web, and when Google gets big enough, or greedy enough, it's going to take Chrome in its own direction. Opera still fares badly at Google's services, but they consider IE worth supporting. ~~~ jrockway I see. So you're blaming Google now for something you imagine they might do in the future. How could Google defend itself against your accusations? ~~~ cytzol Not blaming, but worrying about. There is plenty of software that can read Word's .doc files. Yet I store my data as plain text, as I imagine that the software will be killed or end-of-lifed in the future, even though I can use it fine right now. In the same way, I'd rather use a browser designed for an open, standardised Web. Chrome doesn't have nearly enough market dominance for me to make accusations about it; I just want to minimise any future disaster scenarios. ------ mmahemoff That's quite a while, but actually I think it represents a trend we're seeing in HTML5/webdev, which is increased attention to developer experience. While fancy components and CSS eye candy will continue to roll out, we're seeing even more work on development/debugging tools, the JavaScript language, and with web intents and web components, the seeds of a more robust reuse model. [<http://webintents.org>, [http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw- file/tip/explainer/i...](http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw- file/tip/explainer/index.html)] ------ FuzzyDunlop Next on the long-awaited feature list: word wrap in Eclipse. I can't say I even noticed line numbers on the page source in Chrome either. The formatting of source on a rendered page can be a bit messed up when the request is served, with tabbing and whitespace ended up all over the place, especially with loops. Then there's minified source if you're using someone else's code. Most of the time it's easier to note the error, try and identify where it occurred, then find it in your editor. And with things like Chrome's developer console, sometimes using view-source is redundant when you have a DOM inspector and a number of ways to traverse it. And even then, with a good linter you can avoid making basic mistakes like typos or missing parentheses or whatever, and in some cases even have undeclared variables or functions highlighted (Sublime Text 2 has one that in some places can appear quite fascist in how strict it enforces its policies, particularly with Python). At that point, usage of the browser for debugging code is most useful for capturing errors you couldn't reproduce elsewhere, and errors that only appear in minified code. Not that I'm saying the browser tools _aren't_ a great productivity boost. Because they obviously are. Just that I rarely find myself using the view source feature, really. ~~~ ecaron I was waiting for that feature for Eclipse too. But I switched to Sublime Text (<http://www.sublimetext.com/2>) and shudder when I think how many hours I wasted waiting for Eclipse to keep up with me. ~~~ easy_rider I'm probably switching to Sublime, even though it doesn't autocomp. PHP. whatever, few more lookups in the manual are probably less time-consuming and stressful than an editor just blatantly crashing all over the place when just simply...inputting text ~~~ ecaron Although it'd be nice if Sublime came with autocomp out of the box (or at least an easier way to config it), the options are there. The blog I followed to set it up is <http://urbangiraffe.com/2011/08/15/sublime-text-2-for-php/>. It does make ST a bit more resource intensive than the vanilla version, but it is still loads lighter than Eclipse and also a small footprint on any modern machine. _Save yourself the time and skip the Soda UI part of the blog post_ ------ millzlane They've always shown up in the status bar if you put the cursor on a line. You can also press Ctrl+L to goto a specific line number. Just in case someone didn't know. ------ moheeb I never understood this. I believe even Visual Studio defaults to having the line numbers off. So even though errors are reported as to which line number they are on the line number is not displayed on screen by default!? Is there reasoning behind this? ~~~ zobzu Because you can just "go to line" and the current line is also displayed already. having the line numbers in a side column is redundant, so its far from critical (that's why the bug didnt get fixed). Personally i also prefer to have the line number in the status bar, because side bar adds visual clutter and isn't really useful. It's the same with VIM btw. Default setup doesn't have line numbers but you see them in the status bar. Some people like to have line numbers on the side tho. ------ markokocic The title is a bit misleading. It's not that they were trying to add them for 7.5 years, but weren't able to do it, as the title suggests. It's just that hey didn't have intention of adding line numbers, but changed their minds recently. ------ thought_alarm The wheels of progress turn slowly, to paraphrase someone talking about mozilla.org in 1999. ------ tzury Seems like some of Blake Ross' code was not touched since his departure many years ago. 1.11 * Blake Ross <[email protected]> 1.12 + * Geoff Lankow <[email protected]> ------ scotty79 Great. Maybe soon disable-output-encoding if Firefox XSLT processing will get implemented. <https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=98168> ~~~ bzbarsky Given that it requires a complete rewrite of how XSLT works in Firefox, that the rewrite would make the XSLT much slower, and that the use cases for XSLT on the web that actually want this feature are few and far between, the chances of this happening are low. ------ stfp And no other feature was implemented in that timespan! Outragealicious! ------ wavephorm Just in time for the removal of the "View Source" menu item. ~~~ kinetik It was moved to the "Web Developer" menu, not removed entirely. ~~~ kijin I haven't even noticed the move. It's always been Ctrl+U for me. ------ gcb and 7.5 years I still think it's not that useful anyway. you could always go to a specific line (edit>go to line, or Ctrl+L), which is over 9000% more useful from anyway you look at it. you also could have seem the line number on the statusbar. ------ DiabloD3 The line to shout FINALLY! at the top of their lungs starts here. ~~~ j45 Haha, I just about wrote the same thing but scrolled down. Having line numbers will be a nice addition when I'm not using Firebug as a simpler way to quickly find something. ~~~ j45 Just trying to learn about HN. Commenting why having page numbers will help me is a down votable offence? ~~~ itsameta4 >Haha, I just about wrote the same thing but scrolled down. HN response: "Oh, good, another redditor. This is a place for discussion, not conversation. Downvote." >Having line numbers will be a nice addition when I'm not using Firebug as a simpler way to quickly find something. HN response: "No shit?"	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
VR Content for iOS and Android Apps - jennytodavchych https://thinkmobiles.com/blog/how-to-create-content-vr-apps/ ====== vasira Good article !You wrote in details on VR content. I bookmarked this page. ~~~ jennytodavchych Thank you. ~~~ vasira Welcome friend ! Keep doing good job !	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
This is what a 5MB hard drives looked like in 1956 (note: required a forklift) - sathishmanohar http://thenextweb.com/shareables/2011/12/26/this-is-what-a-5mb-hard-drive-looked-like-is-1956-required-a-forklift/ ====== getsat Mirror (since their server is exploding): <http://i.imgur.com/T2PnM.png> "In September 1956 IBM launched the 305 RAMAC, the first ‘SUPER’ computer with a hard disk drive (HDD). The HDD weighed over a ton and stored 5 MB of data." ~~~ zeedotme not sure what's happening but we're looking into it. We definitely haven't got extraordinarily high traffic atm. ~~~ getsat Are you running preforked/threaded Apache? That's usually the culprit on WP- powered sites. I'd check the Server header but recv() is failing now. ;) ~~~ seanp2k2 Can you explain how running any other httpd that runs PHP via FastCGI or CGI would be any better? The problem is that they're dynamic pages. The solution is to statically cache the page in question. Since WP has this block in the default .htaccess: RewriteCond %{REQUEST_FILENAME} !-f RewriteCond %{REQUEST_FILENAME} !-d RewriteRule . /index.php [L] if you just SSH in to the server, cd over to the HTML root, wget the page in question and save the file as the name of the path, it'll statically cache it and instantly alleviate ~95% of the work needed to serve the page. Dynamic pages are the culprit in /any/ dynamic CMS, and caching is the solution. You could use Varnish, or write/find a memcached plugin, or use redis or whatever other key/value store is trendy at the moment...it's all caching and it's the best way to make dynamic sites fast (besides Cloudflare, which is just "magical" black-box caching) Edit: TL;DR using nginx or lighttpd or cherokee or webrick or whatever other httpd happens to be trendy this week won't help that much. Properly configuring a caching system will help an order of magnitude more. ~~~ sneak There is a WordPress plugin entitled 'W3 Total Cache' which is a drop-in solution for this problem. No wgetting required. ------ MichaelApproved I like reading stories about how careful programmers had to be when writing code so the use of every bit was maximized. Unfortunately, this also lead to the Y2K debacle. ~~~ pan69 Which wasn't really much of a debacle after all... ------ fosk When in 2050 people will see how big a 1TB HDD is now they'll smile at it. I love progress. ~~~ ars I'm not so sure about that. The 3.5 inch form factor has been around for more than 30 years, and I don't see it going away anytime soon because it's a "human" size (about the size of a hand). People are not getting smaller. We'll fit a lot of more data onto them, sure. But the physical size of the largest/most common hard disk available at that time is unlikely to change much. ~~~ ajaimk I'd say the transition will happen away from spinning disks by then. Pretty soon, Physics is going to start getting in the way... ~~~ blhack Physics is already getting in the way. ~~~ jdpage Physics always gets in the way of everything.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Sequential Consistency in Practice - ldelossa https://www.ldelossa.is/blog/sequential-consistency-in-practice ====== grogers > Proc-3 Observes: W(x),W(z),W(y), R() => y > Proc-4 Observes: W(y),W(x),W(z), R() => z Sequential consistency implies a total order on writes, not just that processes see the writes in an order consistent with the order each individual writer used. This history is not valid according to sequential consistency. It _IS_ valid for the two processors to see different values, if one read is stale, but it wouldn't see a different order of writes. ~~~ ldelossa Hello Grogers, Thank you for the feedback. When reading the literature I came to the impression that a single processor need not agree with others on which valid interleaving is observed. I could be wrong about this. Can you provide me any sources that helped you come to your conclusion? I will read thru and edit the post accordingly. ------ ldelossa a quick post clearing up what sequential consistency looks like in distributed systems. ------ lukevp Should valid example 2 be y x z? I don’t understand the 2 y write processing so if I misinterpreted this, I would appreciate it if you could explain in more detail. ~~~ ReactiveJelly Yeah, looks like a typo. There should be 3 valid order: xzy, xyz, and yxz, if I understood the premise right. ~~~ ldelossa yes, fixed. thanks!	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Show HN: Formulita – a simple Formula 1 app - davidor https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.formulita ====== davidor My objective was to develop an application that allowed me to check only the most relevant information of the Formula 1 championship in a simple and fast way. This is my first Android application. It is free and it does not contain any ads. Any feedback is appreciated.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Utter.io API Reference - kordless https://gist.github.com/kordless/9dbac7af840e8ded1fc3 ====== kordless Wrote this for a friend who was wanting to give away some instance time. Figured I'd share it up here!	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Show HN: Slideshow background image search - ibsufupu https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/backgroundimage-search/olemhlpdoebkeehhjgifmemjdafeikld?hl=en ====== ibsufupu Not sure how to let people know about this besides Show HN. I made a background image search extension to find images from the slide shows that try and keep their images out of your grasp. It was annoying me this morning so, yah. The image on the crhome store is from Trulia. source code is here: [https://github.com/ibsusu/BackgroundImage- Search](https://github.com/ibsusu/BackgroundImage-Search) Hopefully it's somewhat useful to others.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
A Conflict-Free Replicated JSON Datatype - DanielRibeiro http://arxiv.org/abs/1608.03960 ====== espadrine > _Our principle of not losing input due to concurrent modifications appears > reasonable, but as illustrated in Figure 4, it leads to merged document > states that may be surprising to application programmers who are more > familiar with sequential programs_. That decision is a bit odd to me. Not only do they show that their merge system can produce data that the application considers invalid, it can even convert a string to a list without having any operation creating a list explicitly. > _Moreover, garbage collection (tombstone removal) is required in order to > prevent unbounded growth of the datastructure_ That is always the painful part of a CRDT system. Until that part is done, it cannot really be used in production. That said, previous work on CRDTs give me confidence that it can be implemented with minimal overhead. > _In fact, we wrote the LATEX source text of this paper using an experimental > collaborative text editor that is based on our implementation of this CRDT. > We are making the character-by-character editing trace of this document > available as supplemental data of this paper_ String editing is brushed over in the paper. I'd love to see their implementation. Does anyone know where it all is? ~~~ nateps We've been developing ShareDB ([https://github.com/share/sharedb](https://github.com/share/sharedb)), a JSON OT system, and using it in production at Lever for 3 years now. CRDT has some strong advantages in decentralized applications with a need to avoid a central server. But in practice, web apps today do generally have a central server. I think the core advantages of OT over CRDTs are actually these practical concerns: being able to design transformations that are more intuitive to application developers, easily cleaning up old operation history, and real world production use and examples of the technology already. One thing OT has enabled us to do that you cannot do as easily in a CRDT is to support turning off publishing of operations when we do large migrations and create huge numbers of ops at once. Because ops have a strict ordering and versioning, clients can lazy get the ops that they have missed if needed later because they submitted a modification on a document or see an even newer op and need the intermediate ops. In a CRDT, you have to make sure that all the clients get all the ops in order to converge. It sounds simple but can be complex in practice. Another practical issue I'd add is that these algorithms sometimes place the burden of resolving the outcome of concurrent edits at read time vs. write time. With OT, you generally do a lot of complex work to figure out how to transform ops at write time, but when you read, you just read the already fully updated document in its native format. CRDT systems often store the document in a format that can be written to very cheaply as it is commutative, but the work gets pushed to read time when you have to collapse a tree full of all its history into a different data structure, such as a string for text editing. One is not strictly better than the other, but many production systems are vastly more read heavy than write heavy, so less obvious tradeoffs like this can become extremely important in production use. ~~~ arj That last part is a good summary of CRDT versus OT. Also nice project. I think a section on conflict handling would be a good addition to your README on github. It is the first thing I look for when looking at systems in this space :) ------ btrask I developed a "general purpose" JSON-based CRDT[1] as a part of my content addressing system project. The idea was to have an "append-only tree", where subtrees could be used by individual applications for different purposes, for example as counters or mutable sets. In retrospect, it didn't need to support recursion. A single-level append-only set is enough to be fully general and easier to perform indexing on. Using JSON was also overkill, since too much flexibility is bad for content- addressing. [1] [https://github.com/btrask/stronglink/blob/master/client/READ...](https://github.com/btrask/stronglink/blob/master/client/README.md#meta- files) ------ jondubois It is impossible to have accurate conflict-free replicated data. Unless the users are given the opportunity to manually resolve conflicts, it will never be 100% accurate - Incorrect data will creep in from time to time (but at least the incorrect data will be consistent across all nodes). The root of the problem is that the system cannot understand the collaborative intent of concurrent users - If you have 2 users who made a change at the same time (without being aware of each other); you have to account for the fact that maybe UserB would have behaved differently if they had been aware of UserA's input (which happened at the same time while one or both users were offline). If the user has been offline for a while - Many such conflicts could arise (maybe by the time the internet comes back on, the user is looking at a completely different page than the one they made the change on) and it's tedious to make the user resolve them all manually. Also with this approach, it tends to force you to keep a copy/cache of all the data in your entire app (for that logged-in user) on the frontend - If you have a big app with lots of pages, that could consume a lot of memory. There are cases where the best solution is to simply tell the user "Sorry, you do not have an internet connection at the moment, so you cannot modify this data" rather than giving them a false sense that the data are correctly backed up in the cloud. I think with CRDTs, it's really important to inform the user when they are offline and when their data are not synced/backed up in the cloud (so they don't get any bad surprises when the internet suddenly comes back on). CRDTs are good where the accuracy of the data is not critical (E.g. bank transactions). One could argue that they improve the user experience, but at the core, developers like them because they make life easier. ~~~ jorangreef "It is impossible to have accurate conflict-free replicated data. Unless the users are given the opportunity to manually resolve conflicts, it will never be 100% accurate [...] The root of the problem is that the system cannot understand the collaborative intent of concurrent users" CRDTs are usually designed to model user intent. You just need to pick the right CRDT for your use-case. From there, the CRDT will resolve conflicts automatically and accurately. Your statement regarding impossibility would be true of operational transformation, but certainly not of CRDTs. ~~~ jamesdsadler To the extent that CRDTs are conflict-free it only means that two edits can commute (be applied in any order) and every party that has applied the same set of edits will produce the same result. At the low-level that the CRDT is operating on there will be no conflicts. But that does not mean that the user never perceives there to be conflicts. No matter what the consensus system used be it CRDTs or OT at some point the converge operation has to impose a total ordering to pick a "winner" in the case of conflicting user edits. If editing a block of text and two users try to replace the same word with another word there are a number of possible outcomes 1) One of the edits "wins" 2) The word is replaced by the concatenation of each user's replacement. 3) Nobody wins and the edit is reverted. In all cases at least one party perceives to themselves to have "lost". But it generally doesn't matter because humans doing the editing will make repairs to nonsensical edits in real time. There has to be a tie-breaker when multiple users try to make different edits to the same region of text. At least that's my current understanding. ~~~ jorangreef "To the extent that CRDTs are conflict-free" There is no "extent" to which CRDTs are conflict free, CRDTs are by definition always 100% conflict free. "No matter what the consensus system used be it CRDTs or OT" CRDTs and OT are worlds apart. CRDTs are guaranteed to be conflict free, whereas OT is generally too complicated and unproven to offer that guarantee at all. "If editing a block of text and two users try to replace the same word with another word there are a number of possible outcomes" There are actually many more possible outcomes than those you listed, so that with CRDTs designed explicitly for collaborative string editing you can provide perfect intent-preserving merges to the user. There is an excellent paper on preserving intent, see "Replicated abstract data types: Building blocks for collaborative applications" ([http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1931272"](http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1931272")) ~~~ josephg > whereas OT is generally too complicated and unproven to offer that guarantee > at all. Citation needed. I've built several production-level OT-based systems on top of ShareJS's JSON OT[1] code. The set of operations supported is guaranteed to be conflict-free and correct. We don't have AGDA proofs but we've used fuzzers to ferret out correctness bugs and its been about 2 years since a bug was found in the transform code. All in all, I'm very happy with the implementation. Meanwhile, I don't believe a more generic JSON OT / CRDT system can be made conflict-free. (Well it can be conflict-free, but you'll lose data if it is). If you support arbitrary tree-level moves, you have the User A moves x into y's children, user B moves y into x's children problem. There are simply no good ways to resolve these operations without user intervention, or a lot more knowledge of the data structures at play. [1] [https://github.com/ottypes/json0](https://github.com/ottypes/json0) ~~~ jorangreef See: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operational_transformation#Cri...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operational_transformation#Critique_of_OT) "Due to the need to consider complicated case coverage, formal proofs are very complicated and error-prone, even for OT algorithms that only treat two characterwise primitives (insert and delete)" \- Du Li & Rui Li - "An Admissibility-Based Operational Transformation Framework for Collaborative Editing Systems" There's also an interesting comment there from the author of ShareJS, I think that might be you? The other critical difference between CRDTs and OT is that CRDTs work offline, in a distributed setting, whereas OT cannot. OT requires a central online server to coordinate, which as far as I understand is the cause of the classic UI freeze in Google Docs whenever the network goes. ~~~ josephg Yes thats me! For what its worth, I no longer believe that wave would take 2 years to implement now - mostly because of advances in web frameworks and web browsers. When wave was written we didn't have websockets, IE9 was quite a new browser. We've come a really long way in the last few years. Working offline and working in a distributed setting are two different properties. OT can work very well offline - the client and server just buffer ops and you do reconciliation. Some OT algorithms experience O(n*m) performance when the client comes back online (n client ops, m server ops), though the constant is quite low, you can make the client do the work. But you can do better - a better designed text reconciliation system can do O(nlog(n) + mlog(m)) if I remember correctly - which is quite usable in real systems and very competitive with CRDTs.) P2P is much harder. I've got a sketch for a system that would use OT in a P2P setting, but in many ways its a poor man's CRDT. That said, the downside of CRDTs is that they grow unbounded as you make more modifications. Which would work great for documents that are written then discarded (like a HN thread). But it would work much less well for long lived, frequently written documents (like a server status dashboard). You can fix that using fancy coordination algorithms, but if you're going down that path you're back to sketching out an overcomplicated OT system. There's lots of fun space to explore there - but not enough actual useful systems being made for production use. ------ marknadal I am the author of a CRDT database that can store JSON. Here are Kyle Kingsbury's (Aphyr) thoughts on it: [https://twitter.com/aphyr/status/646302398575587332](https://twitter.com/aphyr/status/646302398575587332) . In response to the OT comments here in the thread, people should be aware that OT is not P2P or decentralized. The algorithm in the paper is, however, and so is GUN ([https://github.com/amark/gun](https://github.com/amark/gun)) . Probably more important to the discussion, is that it IS possible to implement collaborative rich text editing on top of P2P CRDT systems. Although I do not know of any yet, I am working towards one which uses a linked-list DAG, early demo: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rci89p0o2wQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rci89p0o2wQ) . ------ cwmma so from reading the comments, am I correct that with an object like this {"key":1} if one user changes it to be {"key":2} while the other at the same time changes it to be {"key":3} and another user changes it to {"key":[2, 3]} it's impossible to tell if there was a conflict between the first 2 users or the third user just made an update ------ ianstormtaylor Related: does anyone know any other good resources for architecting and building OT/CRDT for nested data structures like HTML or JSON? Ideally projects with working examples even? ~~~ nateps Author of ShareDB ([https://github.com/share/sharedb](https://github.com/share/sharedb)) here. ShareDB is a stable production JSON OT system that powers the entire backend for Lever ([https://www.lever.co/](https://www.lever.co/)). All of Lever's apps, backend services, migration scripts, etc. go through ShareDB. It scales horizontally; over 1000 companies use Lever, including companies with 1000s of employees, like Netflix and Yelp. There are some simple examples in the repo to get you started. Please let us know if you have any questions getting going! ------ jackweirdy Can't read the paper - is this an implementation of or just related to CRDTs? ~~~ zbyte64 "The JSON datatype described in this paper is a kind of CRDT"	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
The most notable luminaries of our time are wrong to fear AI - inputcoffee https://inputcoffee.com/the-most-notable-luminaries-of-our-time-are-wrong-to-fear-ai-f95dfe7611e#.iw97jugaj ====== dmreedy This is a retread of the traditional I'm-actually-a-dualist argument, and a pretty naive version of it at that. The brunt of the argument is the citation of Searle's chinese room, which is treated as proven fact. I'll give it credit as being a powerful intuition pump, but it really just reduces to the dogmatic divide between those who believe that consciousness can be an emergent property of mechanical systems and those who believe consciousness is the domain of some kind of non-mechanical, non-physical thing, such as a soul. Some other notes; 1) I dislike casting statistical learning and symbolic systems so starkly against eachother. They are both facets of the same underlying principles, and the relation is better illustrated as a continuum, rather than a sharp divide. 2) To succumb to participating in the retread, we don't know enough about the nature of language right now to know whether the premise of Searle's chinese room even stands on its own. We don't know if such a book of translation is possible. And we don't know how to measure its accuracy. This is an old question; c.f. the kerfuffle lately over what the Turing Test actually means. 3) >>>A machine needs to at least have an analog of a desire to do something before it does it. For a biological system, it “wants” to live. This desire emerges from several millennia of evolution. A machine doesn’t want food, of course, but it has no direct reason to “want” to live. We need operational definitions of all of the terminology involved before we can make statements like this. It's dangerous to take these understandings of 'desire', 'want', etc. as givens when we don't even really know how they apply to -us-. This is where an understanding of the history of philosophy is helpful. I agree with the fundamental premise that AI isn't something that is so worrying as a lot of these overhyped press releases make it out to be. But I don't think Searle is on the right path here. ~~~ inputcoffee If I had to do it over, I think I would shrink the rest of the piece, and expand the last section. (Maybe I still can, it is not paper after all). Anyway, thanks for your thoughtful feedback. I don't necessarily disagree with most of what you say, but here are a few responses: 1\. For what it is worth, I think consciousness _might_ be an emergent property of machines, but not of the _sorts_ of machines we currently have. That is to say, I don't think symbolic logic or machine learning are those sorts of machines. 2\. Why do you dislike casting statistical and symbolic machines against each other? (Because this is the internet: serious question.) alluding to your note (1) 3\. I am aware of some of the original criticisms of Searle's Chinese room, but I am not sure what you are alluding to here (in your note 2). 4\. You make a fair point about defining desire, wants and so forth. This is quite a departure from many of the other points that question the _need_ for desires or wants. I would be very curious as to how you believe that would add an important dimension here. (again, because of the internet, serious question.) Thanks again for reading it and taking the time to comment. ------ snewk > Their very limited and simple goals prevent them from even wanting to “take > over” or “rule over us.” I dont think that's the main concern regarding AI (correct me if I'm wrong). What Hawking, Musk, and Gates fear is a weaponized AI. One that doesn't necessarily "want" to take us over or rule over us, but one that is specifically programmed to do so. Nuclear warheads are built to blow up. That doesn't necessarily mean they "want" to, but they are dangerous all the same. ~~~ inputcoffee You are right about nuclear warheads. I didn't read them as worrying about weaponized AI, so I will have to reconsider that aspect. ------ csbrooks [https://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Paperclip_maximizer](https://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Paperclip_maximizer) "...a paperclip maximizer is an artificial general intelligence (AGI) whose goal is to maximize the number of paperclips in its collection... It would innovate better and better techniques to maximize the number of paperclips. At some point, it might convert most of the matter in the solar system into paperclips." Also: "Some goals apparently serve as a proxy or measure of human welfare, so that maximizing towards these goals seems to also lead to benefit for humanity. Yet even these would produce similar outcomes unless the full complement of human values is the goal. For example, an AGI whose terminal value is to increase the number of smiles, as a proxy for human happiness, could work towards that goal by reconfiguring all human faces to produce smiles, or tiling the solar system with smiley faces (Yudkowsky 2008)." ~~~ soared Obviously we all know the paperclip example, you can't just quote it and call that good. Countless people have made objections to this.. ~~~ csbrooks To me, it seems to refute the argument in the article: that AI has to have some kind of "will" in order to be dangerous. Because AI doesn't "desire" to take over the world, it can't harm us. I believe The paperclip example shows that isn't the case. ~~~ vorotato Or to simplify, I can mangle my arm with heavy machinery without it wanting to harm me. It's somewhat ridiculous that people view conscious things as more harmful, if anything they've shown to be less harmful. Before you throw the nuke example at me, please consider we have yet to see what a being who was not conscious but capable of nuking would do. ------ Bartweiss This is a deeply flawed rehash of some of the field's least interesting commentary. Among other things, the likes of Musk and Hawking, while brilliant, are in no way experts on artificial intelligence. Rebutting them is _far_ less meaningful than rebutting Moravec, Russell, Bostrom, Sutton, or any of the other actual experts in the field who have expressed concerns. More to the point, a discussion of what an AI "wants" is sophistry at best. That the Tesla autopilot does not "want" to kill anyone should be of little comfort when it kills someone. No one talking serious about AI as existential risk is envisioning Skynet, and no one interested in real consequences cares whether an extinction-driving AI has human-style desires. ~~~ inputcoffee Thanks for reading it, even if you're unhappy with it. I agree that Musk et al are not AI experts. I wanted to respond to their public comments which I do not agree with. I am not necessarily at odds with the "actual experts" as you put it, so I didn't respond to them. I also agree that the AI experts have substantive positions, and I am do not claim I have undermined them. This last point has been repeated many times. I have clearly failed to address it in my piece. I summarize the point as: an AI may not have desires, but it can have goals. I did think about it, and I tried to address it in the last section, but clearly it was too little and too late. I may try to rework it to address it more fully. Thanks for reading and responding. ~~~ Bartweiss I addressed this elsewhere (on your 'ask for criticisms' post), but I think I misunderstood your intent. As a rejection of Musk/Gates/Hawking, I definitely endorse this. Those voices are pushing a questionably-informed view of the topic (Gates a bit less so?) that's had far too much public influence. Something (the title? my own biases?) led me to conclude that you were trying a larger response to the AI community, which is what I objected to so strongly. That's a great summary of the point (as I meant it). I saw that it was addressed at the end. I still came away with the feeling that the middle was irrelevant in light of it (again, perhaps not if you're responding to Musk), and the response was inadequate, but this may be about scope and intended audience. ------ gdudeman This article mistakes how we talk about AI with potential outcomes. It presupposes that AI will only do what we ask it, not that we'll program AI to, for instance, "protect us from enemy nations." It also seems to presuppose that we'll be able to understand why it does what it does. > "However computers change, they won’t have innate desires. They will be > programmed by people. It still won’t be in their nature to want things." Regardless of the truthfulness of this (What is an innate desire beyond programming whether by evolution or people?), it doesn't matter if the desires are innate or programmed. We will definitely program them to want things and to do things like trade stocks and drive us places. If we get it wrong, it can go haywire. The AI Revolution: The Road to Superintelligence has a very good explanation of this: [http://waitbutwhy.com/2015/01/artificial-intelligence- revolu...](http://waitbutwhy.com/2015/01/artificial-intelligence- revolution-1.html) I'd suggest the writer should spend more time trying to understand what many of the smartest people of our time are saying before declaring them wrong. ~~~ Bartweiss Giving a thoughtful reading to _AI Revolution_ or pretty much any other serious work on AI risk would have preempted this article, and it's a shame that didn't happen. To the extent that this is a useful piece, I think it's a reminder that citing Gates/Musk/Hawking on AI is much less useful than citing an actual expert in the field. ------ liquidise The claims about the _method_ of teaching AI's is to me is moot. With the rate technology changes we would be foolish to assume that the current method will last even a couple of years. The bigger fear surrounding AI is our reliance and the accountability at time of a failure. Tesla's Autopilot has been around for less than a year and it feels like it is under fire on HN weekly. How much is the NSA relying on deep learning to identify "bad" behaviors? How long until drones use image analysis to identify targets and act on them in real-time? My more immediate fear is not with AI itself, but with our implementation of it. I am not fearful of a Ex Machina-style robot on the loose. Instead, my concerns are that humans will begin to rely on machines to make decisions i don't even think humans should be allowed to make. ~~~ inputcoffee I agree with this point. But I think that issue is already with us. For example, algorithms are grading GMAT essays, giving out credit scores and so forth. That is more a fear of the increasing complexity and opacity of modern life. I think you are right in that that is probably the right thing to worry about AI as it actually exists. I might need a follow up article. ------ ChuckMcM I will know we should start fearing AI when AI is writing pieces on Medium that says we shouldn't fear it :-) But more importantly, the good/bad conversations are really about sentient[1] AI and not programmatic AI. Essentially the argument boils down to, "If a sentient AI is created that exists in, and can control, inter-connected computer systems, that AI will be able to take action to satisfy any particular 'want' it might have." So it gets "scary" if you create an AI that is "wanting" something. And I could imagine this done innocuously, for example creating a trading system like deepmind what "wanted" to "win the securities game" by maximizing the value of its holdings. And the risk being that there are very destructive ways to achieve that (killing off your competition for example). But in those scenarios, when it is clear the program is operating outside of its control parameters, the question would be how would it have already figured out that it could be turned off/deleted and so protected itself against that? And _that_ is why sentience is required, by recognizing itself apart from its programming, it recognizes threats to its existence. I tend to lean more toward the "unlikely to be an issue in the near future." camp. [1] Sentience being the effect that the program actually understands it's own existence apart from the environment. ------ zwieback When Skynet takes over do you care if it was because machines developed "free will" or because they were "shuffling bits of paper". I think the fear of AI is independent of technical definitions of what goes on inside and people are not comforted by explanations why machines don't actually think on their own. ~~~ cgag Yeah, when my atoms are rearranged into paperclips, I don't care if the AI that did it truly "desired" that outcome. ([https://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Paperclip_maximizer](https://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Paperclip_maximizer)) ------ cgag > If the whole point of the technological singularity is that it is beyond our > ability to understand it, how can we have an opinion on it? Some people here would probably enjoy this: [https://www.gwern.net/Complexity%20vs%20AI#parable-of-the- wo...](https://www.gwern.net/Complexity%20vs%20AI#parable-of-the-worms) I can't understand seriously asking that question. There are infinite ways for some superintelligence to be misaligned with our goals, and very few ways for it go right. We're the one's building it, it's not some inevitable fate that we'll build a superintelligence who's motives/utility function is beyond us. Now is the time to think about it and get it right. ~~~ cynoclast I like Ian Banks' extrapolation of the post-singularity universe. ------ leblancfg Dear Input Coffee, First off, I would feel very uncomfortable contradicting Elon Musk, Bill Gates, Stephen Hawking and Bill Joy in one fell swoop. Who am I to judge, though. Argument from authority can be fallacious, sure, so let's not go there. Think about this for a minute. By the same argument you're taking, we are just lumps of organic molecules replicating with DNA, surely we can't feel anything, right? The thing you're not considering here is _emergent behaviour_. Now, you haven't talked about self-programming machines in your article, and I'm pretty sure that's what all the really smart people you've rebuked in your subtitle are scared of. Do a quick Google search for "self-programming" AND "machine learning" AND "genetic". If you've read Dawkins' The Selfish Gene, you should be getting goosebumps right about now. If not, and are interested in AI in any way, I cannot stress hard enough how badly you need to go out and get that book. I was also surprised to see you didn't include Nick Bostrom's book called Superintelligence (2014) in your quotes. If you haven't check it out, I would highly recommend it. It goes deep and wide into how a sudden, exponentially growing spike of machine intelligence could impact our society. ------ inputcoffee Well that went well. I am resisting the urge to respond to every single comment, but many of them are a version of the following: The AI can have goals without desires, and those might cause us harm. I agree with this, but I thought the last part was supposed to address this: >>>To be perfectly fair to Musk, there is another component to his argument. Musk argues, about the stand-in for humanity, that “he’s sure he can control the demon. Didn’t work out.” >>>On this view, the primary danger is not that the AI will take our resources, or compete with us, but that we don’t really know what may happen. This is a more general kind of concern that applies equally to, say, nuclear weaponry or genetic modification. I wish I could pick one or two people on here, and just ask why that wasn't an appropriate or convincing section of the post. ~~~ Chathamization > This is a more general kind of concern that applies equally to, say, nuclear > weaponry or genetic modification. This is an interesting point. Concern about the possible threat posed by some technology like genetic modification will often get dismissed as being "anti- science", while concern about another technology like AGI (artificial general intelligence - Skynet) usually doesn't. You have people like Bill Gates who both admonishes people for being worried about genetic modification and admonishes people for not being worried about futuristic AI. Particularly interesting since concerns about genetic modification (or present day AI) is more grounded in reality than concerns about AGI. Something like the paperclip maximizer are like worrying that Monsanto will genetically engineer trifids (killer plants). I can imagine the reaction most people would have to such concerns. I wonder how much of this is cultural. ~~~ inputcoffee You raise an interesting point, and one that I don't think gets much attention. (The point about the contrary attitudes towards AI and biotech.) Bill Joy's essay took the twin issues together, but I think you are right in that today one gets more press than the other. I don't know enough biology to know if those concerns are valid or not. It might be cultural in the sense that "the culture" these days is faced with ever improving AI on an annual basis (Siri, Amazon Echo, etc) so the lay person feels qualified to extrapolate whereas with biotech I can't tell that my corn is more resistant so I don't see the change. ------ johnfjacobi I always understood the talk of "desires" and "taking over" to be a strategy to explain the real problems of AI. I don't think these people actually think that AI will lead to a future like _I, Robot_. Cuz there ARE major problems with automated computer systems already, problems that only get worse with automated computing. Kevin Slavin has a good talk on the subject, and he brings up the occurrence of "flash crashes" in the stock market now that we rely on high frequency / algorithmic trading. Here's the talk: [https://www.ted.com/talks/kevin_slavin_how_algorithms_shape_...](https://www.ted.com/talks/kevin_slavin_how_algorithms_shape_our_world?language=en) ------ twblalock This is too dismissive of the possibility of the development of consciousness. John Searle's argument is famous, but it's not the final word on the subject. Most of the arguments against the possibility of computers developing consciousness are just as strong against the possibility of biological life developing consciousness -- yet here we are! Why would the rules be different for brains made of silicon than for brains made of meat? Besides, AI can be dangerous whether it is conscious or not. After all, in the Chinese Room argument, the _output_ is the same for a brain and the room, even though the internal processes are not. ------ joesmo Even a fully autonomous, self-driving car is not intelligent. It's just advanced software. Shouldn't we wait for actual AI to exist before worrying about it? Otherwise, we're worried about something that many not ever exist. Every argument about the dangers of AI or singularity clearly assumes that such AI is possible without any basis for said assumption. I'm going to continue being a skeptic till I see some proof. Until then, it's like worrying about zombies. I have enough things to worry about that aren't fantasy. ~~~ inputcoffee I agree with you in a sense. I think that the algorithms _as they exist today_ are not capable of sentience. I was trying to draw out this thread with the statistical and symbolic implementation piece, but that went on too long as it was. Then I realized that Searle had made that essential argument so I used him. And that, everyone felt, missed the point. They are right but it is this insight you present here that motivated that detour. ------ dojomouse AI simply working to satisfy the 'benign' goals given to it by human programmers, without our having adequately considered all possible consequences (which, guaranteed, we won't), can be incredibly dangerous. You should read some of Elizier Yudkowsky's writing on the topic, or Nick Bostrom's 'Superintelligence'. I think they articulate quite well the concerns that prompt many of the statements from Musk, Hawking, etc. ------ Animats Intentionality...free will...Chinese box...consciousness... the usual philosophical bullshit. The more likely threat is a corporation run by a machine learning system set to maximize shareholder return and nothing else. When an AI can make more profitable decisions than a human, an AI will be put in charge. Investors will demand it. Think about that for a while. At least this will solve the problem of excessive CEO pay. ------ sdegutis Nice try, _HAL 9000_. ~~~ inputcoffee I laughed out at this one. ------ cynoclast >Elon Musk, Bill Gates, Stephen Hawking and Bill Joy surely know that machines cannot have desires Bullshit. An AI without desires isn't an AI. It's a tool.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Mapping 35 Million Credit Cards On Top of Census Data With R - mdagostino https://www.braintreepayments.com/braintrust/vaulted-credit-card-maps-with-R ====== showerst I really appreciate that they included some sample R code. So many of these cool visualization posts skip the code!	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
United Nations to start using surveillance drones in the DRC - _djo_ http://mg.co.za/article/2013-12-03-un-to-start-using-surveillance-drones-in-drc ====== _djo_ First pictures: [https://twitter.com/t_mcconnell/status/407504857587650560](https://twitter.com/t_mcconnell/status/407504857587650560) and [https://twitter.com/Ndiagaseck/status/407450077847121920](https://twitter.com/Ndiagaseck/status/407450077847121920) The aircraft are Falco UAVs made by Selex ES, which will also operate them from Goma as part of the contract. These are not the first UAVs to be used in the DRC, the EUFOR forces used some in 2006 and some of the forces deployed with the UN have used hand-held UAVs from time to time, but this is the first time UAVs will be an integral part of a UN peacekeeping mission.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Oreos, Vomitoxin, and the Price of Wheat - tptacek http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-04-02/my-dog-is-gluten-free ====== limaoscarjuliet General population easily dismisses food processed and prepared by large corporations. Vomitoxin, feces, infestation, insect damaged kernels. All bad. People want natural unprocessed food... I was born and raised in Eastern Europe. Thanks to complete failure of socialism, there was no large functioning food industry. We had natural food back then, chicken raised by Grandma, wheat she sow herself, fresh eggs every day. And now the surprise: eggs were dirty, wheat was damaged by insects, meat was processed with dirty hands. Yup, all natural and all with vomitoxin levels exceeding any today's standards likely. Salmonella poisoning was pretty common. Hey, but it's all good because... no one checked the levels of x, no one tested for salmonella, etc. The modern food that guarantees some standard is not so bad! At least we know what it has and we can work on reducing it. ~~~ enraged_camel But that is a false dichotomy. There are lots of farms in the US that grow their products naturally and without processing. They don't have increased risk of diseases (probably just the opposite since they aren't keeping their animals packed inside enclosed spaces and pumping them full of antibiotics), and the food tastes _amazing_. ~~~ raverbashing > There are lots of farms in the US that grow their products naturally and > without processing You're buying into the hype "Naturally" means nothing. Sure, the poultry raised there is healthier, but the risk of Salmonella in eggs is probably the same, or even higher. You can also bet they have some rodents going around, insects, fungus, and depending on what you get from there, yes, it's ending up in your food. Of course I prefer food that wasn't picked/slaughtered as soon as possible (and helped by hormones) ~~~ enraged_camel >>"Naturally" means nothing. I'm not talking about the word "all natural" as it is used in labeling food. Yes, you're absolutely right: that one means nothing. I'm using "naturally" to describe conditions that are as close as possible to the animal's natural lifestyle. Chickens that roam outdoors in open spaces, cows that are fed their natural diet (as opposed to processed foods), things like that. >>Sure, the poultry raised there is healthier, but the risk of Salmonella in eggs is probably the same, or even higher. Not really. Those farms are under the same regulations as factory farms. There isn't a reason why the risk of salmonella should be higher. ------ huxley Reminds me of Milo Minderbinder and the Maltese eggs from "Catch 22" [1] "But Yossarian still didn't understand either how Milo could buy eggs in Malta for seven cents apiece and sell them at a profit in Pianosa for five cents." ... later ... "Milo chortled proudly. "I don't buy eggs from Malta," he confessed... "I buy them in Sicily at one cent apiece and transfer them to Malta secretly at four and a half cents apiece in order to get the price of eggs up to seven cents when people come to Malta looking for them." "Then you do make a profit for yourself," Yossarian declared. "Of course I do. But it all goes to the syndicate. And everybody has a share. Don't you understand? It's exactly what happens with those plum tomatoes I sell to Colonel Cathcart." "Buy," Yossarian corrected him. "You don't sell plum tomatoes to Colonel Cathcart and Colonel Korn. You buy plum tomatoes from them." "No, sell," Milo corrected Yossarian. "I distribute my plum tomatoes in markets all over Pianosa under an assumed name so that Colonel Cathcart and Colonel Korn can buy them up from me under their assumed names at four cents apiece and sell them back to me the next day at five cents apiece. They make a profit of one cent apiece, I make a profit of three and a half cents apiece, and everybody comes out ahead." [1] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catch-22](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catch-22) ------ JamisonM The premise of the article, at least at the start, that CBOT contracts are not useful to Kraft because Vomitoxin limits are too high is misleading. The author appears to be ignorant of this fact, but as a farmer I can assure him, and everyone else, that the vast majority of Wheat delivered is far below the Vomi limits attached to contracts in general, and that also does not mean that those contracts are not useful for hedging and/or accepting delivery of wheat with low tolerance of vomi. The guy doesn't even bother to find out what a basis is.. at least it is good to know he's not a regular on the commodities beat. ------ ChuckMcM Oh I loved reading that. The first time I had heard of vomitoxin was when my wife asked General Mills for the nutritional content of her 50 lb bags of flour, they sent her an assay that included less than 1 part per million of vomitoxin and we just had to look it up. That said, I would be disappointed if the CFTC won the argument here. It really does seem like Kraft was well within their rights to order as much wheat as they wanted. And by taking delivery they also took all the risk that the market would respond in a way that helped rather than hindered them. My biggest impression was that the traders were pissed off that a food company had pulled one over on them and they hadn't been able to cash in on the change in the spreads. But that isn't really Kraft's fault as far as I am concerned. ------ qooleot "This raises an important question, which is, who was using that wheat that the FDA considers unfit for human consumption? I worry that my dog is eating a lot of vomitoxin." From Wikipedia: Vomitoxin is not a known carcinogen as with aflatoxin. Large amounts of grain with vomitoxin would have to be consumed to pose a health risk to humans. Companion animals: Dogs and cats are restricted to 5 ppm and of grains and grain byproducts and the grains are not to exceed 40% percent of the diet. ~~~ douche Simple answer, buy the more expensive dog food. I spend roughly $50/50lb per bag of 0-grain feed that I give my dog. This lasts 2-3 months for a 40-50 lb dog. ~~~ scoot Completely OT, but holy $#!+ that's cheap! I pay $2.50 a lb (GBP45 for a 12kg bag) for dog food that is only 20% meat / meat derivatives, and includes grain. It's far from the most expensive but it's the best I have found at that price. ------ krupt Some poor bastard worked very hard on that little bit of javascript that intercepts internal anchor links so they don't ugly up the address bar with #footnote ... or exist in history, which is why I'm back here commenting on an article I was trying to read. ------ HorizonXP I actually don't see why this is a problem. The author's metaphor at the end about Kraft "going across the aisle" seems perfectly plausible. Anyone in a position to buy a product will do their best to negotiate the price down. ~~~ CamperBob2 Agreed, and I also don't see why it fooled anybody. Wouldn't it be common knowledge in the industry that the CBOT-traded wheat was unsuitable for use by Kraft in their products? ~~~ kasey_junk The contract specifies a maximum, but you can mix it with other stuff to make it acceptable. Or it could have been Kraft doing a true hedge. It is really hard to discern precisely _why_ another market participant, even a very large one, is doing something. ------ tptacek This is the best thing you will read all day. ~~~ rayiner Initially thought it was going to be a rant about something icky sounding that's inevitable in food. Was pleasantly surprised. ~~~ grubles *toxin bad! Click-bait title good! ------ potatote Can someone help me--who isn't familiar with future trading--understand this article by providing a "layman" explanation? I read this twice and from what I can gather, Kraft bought futures for a different type of grain and as a result, the price for the other type of grain/wheat is reduced? Thanks in advance! (wish I learned a bit more economics) ~~~ protomyth Try this: [http://ageconsearch.umn.edu/bitstream/15814/1/er040001.pdf](http://ageconsearch.umn.edu/bitstream/15814/1/er040001.pdf) and these: [http://www.kisfutures.com/grains.html](http://www.kisfutures.com/grains.html) You need to understand normal hedging of futures then this makes a lot more sense. ------ protomyth To help some folks along. Commodity Standards and Grades: [http://www.usda.gov/wps/portal/usda/usdahome?navid=COMMODITY...](http://www.usda.gov/wps/portal/usda/usdahome?navid=COMMODITY_STANDARDS) U.S. Standards for Grain: [http://www.gipsa.usda.gov/fgis/usstandards.aspx](http://www.gipsa.usda.gov/fgis/usstandards.aspx) Wheat (PDF): [http://www.gipsa.usda.gov/fgis/standards/810wheat.pdf](http://www.gipsa.usda.gov/fgis/standards/810wheat.pdf) Aflatoxin: [http://www.gipsa.usda.gov/fgis/publication/broch/b-aflatox.p...](http://www.gipsa.usda.gov/fgis/publication/broch/b-aflatox.pdf) Vomitoxin: [http://ars.usda.gov/Main/docs.htm?docid=9765](http://ars.usda.gov/Main/docs.htm?docid=9765) ------ AceJohnny2 I'm disappointed. He never really answered how Kraft made 2ppm vomitoxin out of the 4ppm vomitoxin they get from stopping futures. ~~~ tcas It mentions in the end in the footnotes you can mix together high vomitoxin and low vomitoxin wheat to produce the needed amount. I'm kidding. My dog is gluten-free. Also if you buy the high-vomitoxin wheat you can blend it with low-vomitoxin wheat until you get the perfect amount of vomitoxin. Appetizing, no? ------ AceJohnny2 Wow, this story looks like it's right up cstross' alley (his stories often include, if not build on, economic situations) ------ pyrocat But what does this have to do with the price of bread??? ~~~ AceJohnny2 Back when I was a kid, with some friends we played a game where we'd try and come up with nonsensical phrases like "but have you taken into account the quality of venezuelan poultry when predicting Marseille's weather??". If no- one could come up with a plausible chain of logic linking the things together they'd get a point. In retrospect, this (and your comment), reminds me of Pinky's responses to Brain's "are you pondering what I'm pondering?" ~~~ zhte415 That sounds like an awesome game. You may like the blog macro-man, which is full of similar connect-the-dots stuff [I'm a reader, and have no connection to the author(s)], you may also not like it, but here's a link: [http://macro- man.blogspot.com/](http://macro-man.blogspot.com/)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Duplicacy: cross-platform cloud backup tool based on lock-free deduplication - acrosync https://github.com/gilbertchen/duplicacy-beta ====== de_dave During beta testing only binaries are available. Why?! Surely this is the optimum time to provide source code, given the amount of trust one has to place in these things to not lose/misplace your data. ~~~ Titanous Especially when crypto is involved. Given the large number of completely broken cryptosystems, making this open source will give it a fighting chance to not be entirely broken. ~~~ eis Anything that handles critical data and sends it encrypted to third parties needs to be open source in this day and age or wont be used by people who take their data serious. Actually it doesn't even need to be sent to third parties to hit the open source requirement. Having crypto involved like you said is reason enough. ------ BetaCygni Attic + s3cmd sync works fine for me. At least, well enough that I won't be using a closed-source solution. If this is released as open source, great! ~~~ mahyarm With s3cmd, don't you have to have a local copy of the backup somewhere although? So you have the content and the backup at the same spot, you can't directly backup to a remote server that way. ~~~ BetaCygni Yes, you need to have a local backup. I actually prefer that, it's another backup location for when files are accidentally (or deliberately) deleted or damaged. ------ Gazooo How is this different than [http://duplicity.nongnu.org/](http://duplicity.nongnu.org/) ?? ~~~ acrosync There is a section comparing Duplicacy with others: [https://github.com/gilbertchen/duplicacy-beta#comparison- wit...](https://github.com/gilbertchen/duplicacy-beta#comparison-with-other- backup-tools) ~~~ kirushik BTW, why does your comparison table says "Full Snapshot: No" for duplicity? One can definitely use `duplicity full` to explicitly ask for a full backup. ~~~ acrosync By "full snapshot" I meant an incremental backup that still appears to be a full one. A full backup in duplicity is not an incremental backup so it is not qualified as a full "snapshot". ------ aorth I've been using Tarsnap for personal, encrypted, deduplicated backups for a few years. It's not shiny, but it works fantastically. [https://www.tarsnap.com/](https://www.tarsnap.com/) ~~~ dexterdog But it is obscenely expensive. 1TB would cost you $256/month plus $256 to to your initial backup and another $256 if you ever need to restore. ------ linuxready Very interesting. Is it using VSS to backup on Windows ? Otherwise I don't see how it can really achieve a complete correct backup on Windows. The best cross-platform backup tool I have found is Burp. However it doesn't backup to cloud. ~~~ acrosync Yes, there is a -vss option for the backup command. ------ jmtd Obligatory obnam plug: [http://obnam.org](http://obnam.org) ------ olalonde Wish I had seen this a few days earlier before throwing together my own AWS backup scripts ([https://github.com/olalonde/offsite-aws- backup](https://github.com/olalonde/offsite-aws-backup)). Does this also support database backups? ~~~ acrosync It should. The variable-size chunking algorithm works well with database files.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Erlang/OTP 20.0 is released - rdtsc https://github.com/erlang/otp/releases/tag/OTP-20.0 ====== rdtsc This I like from it: * Dirty schedulers: This allows easy integration of blocking C-based libraries. So for example can wrap something like RocksDb and make it available to the rest of the VM easier. Or libcurl and others. * DTLS documented in the API, experimental : This lets it parse and talk to WebRTC clients * Erlang literals are no longer copied when sending messages : This is kinda of a sneaky one. By default With some exceptions Erlang VM usually copies data when it sends messages. However, in this case module literals (constants, strings, etc) will be another thing that's not copied when messages are sent between processes. There is a hack to dynamically compile configuration value or other tables of constants as a module at runtime. So if you use that hack, you'd get a nice performance boost. * code_change, terminate and handle_info callbacks optional in the OTP behaviors. This is very nice. I always wondered why I had to write all that boiler plate code.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
The Ursula Herrmann kidnapping mystery - oska https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/sep/24/ursula-herrmann-germany-kidnapping-mystery ====== Wowfunhappy Recognizing that I don't have much knowledge about this case—I only know what I read in the linked article—it certainly doesn't seem as though that man should have been convicted. All the evidence is circumstantial, and there really isn't all that much of it. And, using the sound of a tape recorder to identify the guy? Really? That doesn't even pass the smell test for me. I'm not 100% convinced he's not the culprit, but the case described in the article doesn't come close to "beyond a reasonable doubt", for me. ------ DoctorOetker I don't understand the part of the story where the search strategy suddenly switches to meticulously probing the soil throughout the forrest? How did the police come to the conclusion she was burried underground? How did they know to search for a hard box at a known shallow depth? EDIT: apparently the brother made a website: [https://www.ursulaherrmann.org](https://www.ursulaherrmann.org) ~~~ oska > How did they know to search for a hard box at a known shallow depth? They didn't. They would have been searching for a shallow grave. Thanks for linking the brother's website. I found his letter interesting, particularly this part towards the end: > For me, there is increasing evidence suggesting the involvement of a group > of people who have insofar only been rudimentarily looked at. A fresh look > at the evidence and new methodology yielded very well founded suspicions > against known individuals. ------ mabbo What a terrible story and a fantastic telling of it.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Show HN: Bookmark full text search web app - linklet https://linklet.io/ ====== walterbell A few questions .. email increases metadata exposure, is it mandatory? Does this archive the original page to protect against linkrot? Why would someone use this instead of Pinboard, which searches the unmodified page? ~~~ linklet Linklet caches the linked page, but doesn't cache referred files like stylesheets or images. I think the cached text should be able to help the user to find another copy of the content online using Google. I developed it without knowing Pinboard. Linklet is at least an alternate to Pinboard. It took a subtle difference approach towards the information management problem and may have a different goal. What do you mean by "email increases metadata exposure". Your automatic signature in the email message? Linklet is not a social site. All bookmarks are private to yourself. ~~~ walterbell > What do you mean by "email increases metadata exposure". Just that email is not encrypted, vs. a browser extension that uses HTTPS to send the bookmark to Linklet. ~~~ linklet I'm using SMTP with SSL with my email client. I think that's encrypted.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Online hackathon weekends - jareddickk https://www.pitcherly.con ====== gus_massa Wrong URL. Try submitting again.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
100-Year-Old Fruitcake Found in Antarctica Is ‘Almost’ Edible - elmar http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/08/antarctica-fruitcake-scott-terra-nova/ ====== eip > 'Almost' Edible So the same as new fruit cake then?	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Terence Tao Proposes Fluid New Path in Navier-Stokes Problem - digital55 https://www.simonsfoundation.org/quanta/20140224-a-fluid-new-path-in-grand-math-challenge/ ====== digital55 Here is the paper: [http://arxiv.org/pdf/1402.0290v2.pdf](http://arxiv.org/pdf/1402.0290v2.pdf)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Apple Eyes 2022 Release for AR Headset, 2023 for Glasses - apress https://www.theverge.com/2019/11/11/20959066/apple-augmented-reality-ar-headset-glasses-rumors-reported-release-date ====== simonh If it's 3 to 4 years away from being real, would they really hold a presentation in the theatre? Not exactly an ideal setting for a discussion, and way too early for any kind of useful demonstration. Also at this early stage in a product's development, Apple very carefully controls and compartmentalises information. The software team wouldn't have any idea what the hardware looks like, or who is working on it. If you know the people in other teams, there's more likelihood of cross-leaking. There's no way their whole road map would be shared with the entire team. They may well have had some sort of meeting, but I suspect this is a case of extrapolating way too far from piecemeal and confusing scraps of information, combined with a fundamental misunderstanding about how Apple approaches projects like this. ~~~ ArtWomb >>> 3 to 4 years away from being real I think it's worth extrapolating ;) We're probably not going to see Apple AR tech in soldier HUDs on the battlefield. Or in the F-35. I could be wrong, but it may not be a cultural fit. The enterprise customer here is the AutoDesk / Adobe client who wants seamless 3D design integreted into digital content creation workflows and even additive manufacturing. And that is very exciting. Being able to animate and composite 3D models with live action video in a holographic environment will make creating movies just as fun as watching them. But the driver for consumer adoption I believe is entertainment. That's where Ocuclus and Magic Leap seem to be placing company bets. Hit games like Beat Sabre and Vader Immortal give an inkling. Someone is going to create a phenomenon like Avatar for VR and content will never be the same. ~~~ criddell > Someone is going to create a phenomenon like Avatar for VR and content will > never be the same. Avatar was a milestone for 3d movies. Would you say movies have never been the same since then? ~~~ ArtWomb I absolutely would! And I know what you are getting at. But you can't look at the relatively poor performance of 3D IMAX ticket sales as evidence that classic 2D cinema constitutes a kind of "End of History" culmination of the art form. It's just really hard to make something like "Gravity", which hit like 80%+ 3D sales percentages internationally. Instead, for a peak into a possible near future I'd look to new immersive experiences such as teamLab's borderless [https://borderless.teamlab.art/](https://borderless.teamlab.art/) Visitors to Yayoi Kusama's Infinite Mirrored Room at David Zwirner gallery in Chelsea get exactly one minute each to experience the sensation. And it's expected in excess of 100K+ will make the pilgrimage ;) A Look Inside Yayoi Kusama's New, Eye-Popping NYC Exhibition [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3UmpPF9Bo4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3UmpPF9Bo4) ~~~ criddell 2D cinema may not be a culmination, but the last 100 years of 3D movies makes it pretty clear that it will never be more than a sideshow with occasional sparks of brilliance. The experience isn't good enough. ------ atlasunshrugged I'm pretty excited to see what Apple releases. Generally, it seems like they're later to market rather than on the cutting edge of things but bring a high design quality and make tech approachable for a broader audience but this seems like one of those ones where the market hasn't been really made yet. Although, I've been pretty disappointed over the last few years with the quality of their products, especially software. I usually upgrade every ~2 years but for my last device that was 2 years old I was trying to hold out until a new release but it would constantly freeze up and crash after downloading the new software release they usually do when they announce a new phone (not trying to go into conspiracy theories but it seemed a little too convenient that just then is when my phone would start going on the fritz). ~~~ jgmjgm Until recently I would have agreed with you. It seems to me that Apple is in a luxurious decline. Cook is great at squeezing money out of their product lines but he's done it at the cost of good will. I was in the market to upgrade, I love OS X and I was willing to pay a premium... but with crappy keyboards and systems that can't be upgraded it's just was not worth the price tag. I recently switched from my macbook pro to a thinkpad X1. I have to say the first week was hard -- especially the trackpad -- but the adjustment so far has been fine. I'm struck by how much better windows has gotten. Even more, I'm impressed by how innovative it and the eco- system has become again. I think that's the challenge for Apple. How can they stay big and remain innovative? Right now it seems they are coasting on good management and design... but they are missing that element that presumably Jobs brought to the table by directing those elements towards a new innovative vision of a product line. Anyway, I could be wrong but it seems to me that Apple is coasting. These announcements seem more like a big company flailing around to get in on the next big thing. On the other hand, Apple is great at the self-contained devices (ipad, iphone, etc.) with no moving parts. These products seem rock- solid and I think this is where the real revenue is. My concern is that this money is going to allow everyone to hide from the fact that the company is not as innovative as it used to be. Interested to hear from others though. My work is elsewhere so I don't track this company closely. ~~~ ogre_codes While Apple's Mac line is stumbling a bit, the rest of Apple's hardware is pretty spot on. The Apple Watch, AirPods, iPhone, & iPad are all rock solid. The AR headset is a lot more like the Apple Watch and it's basically slaughtered it's competition and is widely considered a best-in-class product. The big question mark with Apple isn't hardware, its software. iOS 13 and Catalina were both pretty ambitious and deeply flawed. ~~~ rootusrootus iOS 13 can at least be partially explained by the difficulty of tying OS releases together with hardware when both require lengthy pre-planning. ~~~ ogre_codes Just having a hard deadline with an annual release cycle is aggressive. Seems like they should be doing a lot of these releases in point upgrades instead of forcing one giant upgrade per year. ------ aphextron Here's hoping it's not just another Hololens flash in the pan. I've been holding out hope for 5 years now that Apple will come in and do it right, and trigger another paradigm shift for computing akin to the mobile revolution. AR is absolutely going to be a game changing technology some day, but the current hardware is simply nowhere near what's needed for mass consumer adoption. ~~~ skellera As long as apple keeps their image as the company keeping up with the best tech (doesn’t matter if it’s true or not), it’ll be huge for them to release anything. It’ll make others jump in and bring a lot more money into the industry. The AirPods are a good first step in showing they can make small, lightweight devices that are easy to use. The glasses will probably need a charging case in the same way. Also, they are keeping their high end phones a bit overpowered for normal smartphone usage which means they can use that extra power to do the required rendering. This allows them to offload it all from the glasses to the phone. I believe we are some time off from standalone glasses. ~~~ zaroth The Apple we love is the Apple which takes decades to line up the technologies, materials, and interfaces needed to polish a future vision down to the gem which will totally change how we interact with technology. The wearables unit of Apple does seem like it’s where the big innovations are happening, even if a lot of that innovation is in materials and just perfecting the user experience of something basic like charging. ------ SirHound I think this is turning out to be harder than any of the big companies anticipated. IIRC Xbox had an internal roadmap that put AR in 2014, a year before a VR headset which is an interesting look at our collective ignorance about the type of problems we are looking at. I do think Apple are the best placed to come to market on this though. Everything we’re currently seeing from them, like their over-powered mobile chipsets, seemingly premature ARKit, and Face ID sensor array are IMO all part of the push to cranking the price/performance of their hardware and software specifically for these upcoming headsets rather than addressing the current market. Which is genius, using the momentum of the iPhone to propel them into this new market. I wonder if we’ll see them pull away in capabilities the same way the Watch has. ------ nlh Although it feels inevitable, I think what’s interesting to consider is that history would indicate that Apple is likely NOT to be the company that really ushers in the shift from ~5 inch screens we hold in front of us to an AR-based world. In the same way that in early 2000s, yes, Dell definitely moved us forward with a great line of laptops, but the Sony Vaio (and, later, MacBooks) are what brought laptops to consumers in a real way, and yes of course, Motorola and Nokia et al made the first real push at mobile, but Apple made mobile phones a mass-market accessory item. I wonder if Apple will end up being the Dell / Nokia of the AR world, and some company we haven’t yet considered ends up really owning the revolution. ~~~ oflannabhra I’m not sure what about this article specifically that makes you feel that way. You are correct, in general, that firms that are successful because of an innovative technology, typically get surpassed by the next innovative technology to come to the market. See Clayton Christensen’s The Innovators Dilemma. However, Apple is one company that seems to have broken the trend, several times, in fact. Past success is not always an indicator of future success, but I’m personally not willing to bet against Apple at this point. ------ fyp People are comparing this to the mobile revolution but I am curious to know why history should repeat itself. As far as I can tell there's currently no secret sauce that will make AR usable that Apple is uniquely in the position to monopolize (needing higher FOV, rendering opaque objects, etc). Is it just the ability to drive cultural adoption to avoid "glasshole" stigma? ~~~ batmansmk Apple has capabilities that others don't have. Apple can design their own batteries, cases, utility chips, CPU, GPU, screens. They have exceptional assembly factories, where they can assemble with very low mechanical tolerance and calibrate HW better than most of the competition. They have patented several new methods for making glass. They have non garbage collected UI capabilities, low level GFX API developers. Apple is in a unique position to get an edge on the AR/VR market. ------ dsalzman Apple's software first approach and last mover mentality will give them a huge advantage in the Augmented Reality Space. ------ foobiekr Apple is not a parts manufacturer/inventor; they assemble parts wonderfully with, on occasion, some customization, so the obvious question is: where are the displays? Diffractive waveguides are a very disappointing display for most uses; not bright enough, poor FOV, bleeding, etc. For a summary, see [1]. Without an external vendor to make the breakthrough in displays, Apple is in the same position as everyone else - talking about an AR future that looks great until you get there. [1] [https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/why-making-good-ar- displays-s...](https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/why-making-good-ar-displays-so- hard-daniel-wagner/) ~~~ coldtea > _Apple is not a parts manufacturer /inventor_ Manufacturer maybe not, but inventor? They have all kinds of patents and inventions of their own, their own CPUs and processing units, etc... > _they assemble parts wonderfully with, on occasion, some customization_ They order custom parts more often than not, with very heavy customization. Does anybody think that the displays for a 2022 Apple VR device (assuming the rumor is true) would be seen anywhere outside of Apple labs, and be e.g. available as off-the-shelve parts with merely "some customization" required on top in 2019? ~~~ coldtea Come to think of it, grandparent was probably thinking of the desktop space -- where Apple basically uses Intel, AMD, etc parts + some modifications. But that's absolutely not the case in the iOS, Apple Watch, etc space. They make their own everything, from best of breed mobile CPU designs, to custom DSPs that are the 2019 1000x equivalents of the Amiga of yore (remember Paula, Denise, Agnus?), own boards, and everything in between. ------ chooseaname I must be the odd man out. I don't want something that I have to wear. I wear glasses and contacts and I don't want to wear those either. I see AR as being great as, say, a HUD in a car. But I just don't want wearables. ~~~ rglover Think in terms of iteration. On your desk > on your lap > in your pocket > on your wrist > on your face > on your eyes > in your body. ~~~ chooseaname This is even worse. I want to be able to disconnect and just ... be human. ~~~ Aperocky But you can always disconnect, there's no reason that you can't put your cellphone or even a physical connection to brain on airplane mode. ------ hyperpallium > Apple CEO Tim Cook has previously said that he regards augmented reality as > “a big idea, like the smartphone,” IDK about the timeline, but inevitable that they'll _want_ to do it. A heads-up display enables larger displays _and_ smaller devices, and seems inevitable to me, too. Google Glass seemed to fail because of privacy. But subtracting the camera was too much for Google engineers to bear... in contrast, Apple has a history of subtracting features when necessary. They can also design cool eye-wear. The only problem with my theory is that, without a camera, it isn't "AR"... ~~~ criddell Why do you say Google Glass failed? They are still developing and selling it. A new version was just release six months ago. ~~~ hyperpallium More, failed as "a big idea, like the smartphone". Google launched it like that too. ~~~ criddell By that standard Magic Leap, Hololens, Oculus, and the others are all failures too. ~~~ hyperpallium Well, yes. They failed to be the next big thing. (Maybe they are profitable in a small market, or maybe they are living on VC?) 20-30 years ago, there was a flurry of VR devices... Hasn't ML been caught in fraud a couple of times now? ------ mark_l_watson I hope that they keep pushing for self contained independent devices. My wife and I love our Apple Watches and not needing an iPhone (assuming your watch has a data plan) is a game changer, The Oculus Quest is self contained, a great product, but a bit heavy. I expect an AR headset would also work in VR mode and I hope Apple makes it light and comfortable. It is amazing what functionality is packed into the Apple Watch and AirPods and I have confidence Apple will get it right with a headset. Then the question is, will people want them. ~~~ CrackerNews Like AR, the future of VR mainstream adoption is in self-contained standalone independent devices. John Carmack of Oculus mentioned that user retention for the mobile snapon Gear VR was only one or two uses before never using again. There's too much friction for the common masses to get into VR that way. Hence the Note 10 dropping support for Gear VR and Carmack giving a "eulogy" for the device and Oculus focusing on the Go and Quest (with the Rift remaining for enthusiasts). The Quest has been far more successful than the Rift ever was due to its standalone nature for compelling VR experiences. (game developers could have made up to 3-4x more sales on Quest compared to the Rift) Apple has to make AR standalone. Smartwatches faced flack for not initially being standalone for being so expensive. While it did become more and more standalone, it still isn't a compelling use scenario for the masses to go out and spend that money. AR could have more promise than what Google Glass had, but it would have to be far more compelling than what the masses can already get from their iPhones. As a point of comparison, VR right now is within 1% of the entire Steam population, which is then a fraction of the world's masses. There's interest but people at large aren't biting yet for various reasons. Apple's AR could end up in a similar situation where it would be nice to have but remains out of reach. ------ ChicagoBoy11 People made a lot of fun of me for wearing Google Glass several years for a solid month straight. Like, every day, to work and back. It was in fact clunky and rough around the edges, but even at that stage I experienced moments of the kind of glee I felt when I first used an iPhone. AI and Machine Learning will need to do a lot more heavy lifting in an AR glasses world, but the experience will just blow our phones out of the water. And it'll be amazing. ------ tpmx No paywall: [https://www.theverge.com/2019/11/11/20959066/apple- augmented...](https://www.theverge.com/2019/11/11/20959066/apple-augmented- reality-ar-headset-glasses-rumors-reported-release-date) ------ ssully Very interested to see what a full AR product from Apple looks like. I am always impressed whenever I toy with their ARKit stuff on iOS devices, but I am curious how that translates beyond toy applications. ------ KoftaBob I hope they take the approach that Focals by North did with their smart glasses. Non-obtrusive heads up display for notifications/navigation, and glasses that actually look like normal glasses. ------ akl_bh I somehow read this as the code name for Glasses is "Apple Eyes". ~~~ dawg- Or maybe just 'i'? The ultimate evolution of product names. ------ anomaloustho Bigger news to me is that this paywall is $40 a month to get through. Wow! Could anyone provide more information about this publication and why the price is so steep? ~~~ SirHound I think this is geared towards business and rich valley people. The few with deep pockets over a wider audience. ~~~ snowwrestler The core of the pitch for the "The Information" is that they do reporting that moves markets; i.e. investors should subscribe to get access to information they can use to make decisions ahead of their competitors. A lot of their reporting, like this article, tries to look down the road on new products and markets. The founder Jessica Lessin spent years at WSJ (as Jessica Vascellaro), but got into trouble for getting too close to her sources; for example traveling to private parties with them. The Information takes more of a utilitarian, service model to their work, where ethical concerns about source relationships are less important than the quality of the information you provide to subscribers (hence the name). ~~~ anomaloustho Thanks for that explanation, that makes more sense.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims - uptown https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-05-29/facebook-tools-are-used-to-screen-out-older-job-seekers-lawsuit-claims ====== agrippanux Age discrimination being rampant in our industry is a fantastic opportunity for an astute hiring manager. I go out of my way to hire older devs that are eschewed by typical Bay Area startups. I can get a seasoned pro with a solid background in C - and other more trendy languages - for about the same price of a 3-years-working- experience "senior dev" who likely was battlefield commissioned into the role at their last startup. The typical solid dev can only put in 4, maybe 5-6 hours of actual good coding a day. If you know how to run a tight org - and not a sweatshop of 20-year olds pulling 16 hour days where only maybe 2-3 hours are actual programming time - then older devs are a fantastic bargain. Plus, when it comes time to architect something complex, I have found older devs typically create more simple and elegant solutions just because they have been exposed to more. Of course, I do run into the occasional stuck-in-the-mud older dev who is very slow to adapt to current trends and wants everyone else to get off their lawn. That has been a rare exception to my overall experience and I don't think it should be used to stereotype the older devs as a group. ~~~ ryanmonroe > I go out of my way to hire older devs that are eschewed by typical Bay Area > startups Going "out of [your] way" to hire older devs sounds like age discrimination. AFAIK, age discrimination in this direction isn't illegal in America, but it seems odd that you would respond to an article decrying age-discrimination by proudly declaring that you discriminate too, in the opposite direction. Maybe you just meant that you almost always find the qualities/compensation-demands you're looking for in older applicants rather than younger ones, but your phrasing doesn't seem to indicate that. ~~~ Moto7451 It's not age discrimination if you accept and do not otherwise discriminate against young/younger candidates. There's a lot that goes into recruiting. Optimizing your job descriptions, creating multiple job descriptions, and targeting your ad spend are all things that can affect the age, race, gender, education level, etc of the people you reach without being discriminatory. In fact, you should do this to be inclusive. There are a lot of unconscious things hiring managers do that remove themselves from the running of highly qualified candidates. Want to remove yourself from consideration from young talented female developers? Create a laundry list of "requirements" even though you consider them "nice to haves." Also add plenty of trigger words to make your business seem unattractive. [https://hbr.org/2014/08/why-women-dont-apply-for-jobs- unless...](https://hbr.org/2014/08/why-women-dont-apply-for-jobs-unless- theyre-100-qualified) [https://www.forbes.com/sites/hbsworkingknowledge/2016/12/14/...](https://www.forbes.com/sites/hbsworkingknowledge/2016/12/14/how- to-take-gender-bias-out-of-your-job-ads/#21863e951024) Avoiding hurting yourself in the eyes of candidates you'd like to include is far from being discriminatory to other groups. ~~~ throwawaymath _> There's a lot that goes into recruiting. Optimizing your job descriptions, creating multiple job descriptions, and targeting your ad spend are all things that can affect the age, race, gender, education level, etc of the people you reach without being discriminatory._ Wait...isn't this exactly what the article is talking about? ~~~ bobthepanda 'Targeting your ad spend' is the thing under fire here, and under a very specific attack. Before online advertising you kind of had an idea of what the target audience of TV channels, news, and radio was like, but it was very fuzzy and you certainly weren't _excluding_ people not in your target demographic that happened to utilize those media platforms. Women reading male fitness magazines or men reading female lifestyle magazines weren't the primary target of ads in those platforms, but they could certainly utilize what was being advertised if they so desired. The same is not true of online advertising today. Facebook is more in the position of a newsstand than anything else, and it would be blatant discrimination if a newsstand wasn't allowing older people to buy technology magazines, for example. ------ OhHeyItsE I always wonder where the myth that older developers are "slower" comes from. Dunno about you folks, but I get better and faster every year. And, for me, that productivity metric is probably approaching parabolic. You learn enough languages, frameworks, tools - all the fundamentals start to merge together. You can pick the next one up faster than you did the one you just put down. You understand how to design software; how to organize code. Exactly when to reuse, refactor, or copy/paste. You have a better understanding of how the market works and the competitive strategies around product development will manifest - not only within your own product and industry, but when analyzing and choosing vendors as well (you really want to leave it up to a 25 year-old to choose AWS vs GCP?). Sure, I've got a ton of better things to spend my nights and weekends on than writing code for free. I can also spot a doomed project from a mile a way and have no qualms about delivering a very curt "yeah no thanks" to that project manager who waddles over with some deluded hero fantasy where they carry the flag on my back for something that's probably never going to see the light of day anyway. Maybe that's it? That's probably it... ~~~ white-flame As your ending suggests, older developers tend to rock the boat more. As their bosses tell them to do something, the old timers see failures of history repeating themselves and try to steer the direction elsewhere. Younger devs fall in line much easier. It can sometimes be a double-edged sword. Some older devs get hung up on bikeshedding and tunnel visioning about old specifics instead of just getting work done with whatever the new environment is. However, this problem is far more represented in the big slow-moving corporate world, and go-getter active old timers looking at startups wouldn't generally fit that stereotype. But if 2 devs are agreeably working on a complex project, the old timer will probably be faster to finish than the younger one. For non-complex projects, it's a crap shoot. ~~~ DoofusOfDeath > As your ending suggests, older developers tend to rock the boat more. As > their bosses tell them to do something, the old timers see failures of > history repeating themselves and try to steer the direction elsewhere. > Younger devs fall in line much easier. I've seen this in spades. One of my greatest frustrations as an older developer is seeing history about to repeat itself, yet being unable to convince management of that fact. Because I need the paycheck I can't walk away from some work. But it makes me die a little every time I work on such projects. ------ notacoward As a 53-year-old Facebook employee, I find the part about Facebook doing this for their own hiring a bit odd. To the extent that anyone has ever reacted to my age with anything other than mild surprise, people generally seem quite glad to see something besides another fresh 20-something face and to hear the voice of long experience. Then again, I didn't come in via a Facebook ad. Maybe companies use different methods to search for candidates of different ages or experience levels because _our own_ job-seeking habits are different. I was already a principal before the web even existed, let alone Facebook or LinkedIn. Even then I didn't look at generic ads anywhere to find a new job. I used headhunters, and then purely personal contacts. I'm sure many of my contemporaries are the same. If such broadcast ads are basically a waste of money seeking that kind of employee, and other methods are being tried, is that really "disparate treatment" in any meaningful sense? ~~~ mlthoughts2018 I don't know. I was recommended to a specific domain-specialized role in Facebook by someone with a long tenure inside the company, and after the recommendation, I was just auto-routed into the standard, crappy candidate pipeline like everyone else, told I'd have to do whatever 6-month rotation bootcamp, asked why I didn't have a bunch of Javascript experience. It certainly _felt_ like they make an effort to pedantically screen everyone through such a process exactly to enforce various uniformity and policy standards. I am not claiming that I specifically experienced ageism, although it is possible. But I definitely experienced some type of "junior dev, infinitely flexible, doesn't know his own market compensation worth, etc." filters, which in many cases are going to systematically filter out experienced professionals. ~~~ lclarkmichalek So everyone in the same role goes through the same interview, and everyone in the same role goes through the same 6 week bootcamp. The aim, as I understand it, is to avoid talk like 'that person was hired into team X, they must suck at Y' or 'org X is easy to get in to, I wouldn't want to work with someone who was hired into it', and to allow more internal mobility without the need to reinterview. I can join any team for my role without needing to interview again, which reduces the friction a lot. With that said, sorry you had a bad experience :/ The Javascript question does sound misplaced. ~~~ JustSomeNobody > ... to avoid talk like 'that person was hired into team X, they must suck at > Y' or 'org X is easy to get in to, I wouldn't want to work with someone who > was hired into it', This is why you do your best to hire mature employees no matter their age and fire immature employees, no matter their age. ~~~ mlthoughts2018 I assume you mean that employees who think their colleagues must suck at Y because they are on team X, or who worry themselves about whether some other team's chosen hiring standards are "too easy," are the immature ones? (And presumably it's immature to even care about 'sucking at Y' at all, unless a specific task requires skill at Y and is not being solved, in which case it sounds like a problem of assigning it to the wrong person, not a problem of general hiring for Y in all cases.) ------ jiggliemon The joke is really on the employer using Facebook ads to target a younger candidate pool. Youngsters don’t use Facebook. And if a young dev is using Facebook - they’re certainly using an ad-blocker. If they’re not using an ad blocker on Facebook, do you even want to hire them? Seems like if you wanted to attract a pool of young candidates now days, you’d target the parents of the said youngsters. The ones with no applicable experience, and who are still living at home “looking for a job.” The ad should be to the effect of “tired of your good for nothing millennial taking up your third bedroom? Want them to move out? We’re hiring good for nothing straight out of college devs so as to lock them into a low tier pay bracket.” ~~~ ryanwaggoner As someone who runs ads on Facebook and other platforms and has a lot of devs who respond, this isn’t true. Not only do devs not all block ads (and it’s kind of offensive to imply that only the _good ones_ do), they even click on ads! ~~~ ryanwaggoner Yeah, just looked it up. There are over 50 million active users on Facebook between the ages of 25 and 34. In the US alone. ------ BasHamer Data-driven algorithms are discriminating based upon undesirable/illegal vectors; they are utterly amoral in optimizing their solutions. Even if the algorithm does not have access to the "Age" field, then there are plenty of proxies, like what reunion tour you liked. And the same goes for race, gender, sexual identification, religion, etc. To solve this we either need the training data to have no illegal/undesired discrimination, or we make the system moral. I think the first is impossible, and the second is what we will do sooner or later. ~~~ biztos How would you make the system moral? Let's say "moral" means "won't discriminate based on X" and the same "system" is used by everyone, which of course it wouldn't be. So do you make up a bunch of fake "people" who are equal in everything except X, and test that it doesn't advantage/disadvantage the X's? Would that even be possible if the "system" is getting its inputs from social media? Do you do mandate some kind of audit of the system's decisions, and require it to choose on average the same percentage of Xs as... what? As there are Xs in the general population? In the candidate pool? I'd love for this kind of thing to work but even in an idealized hypothetical version it's hard to see how it could. I think in tech we've already shown that shame is no barrier to hiring discrimination, and as HR+AI type filtering systems preselect candidates for you it'll be harder and harder for you or the government or the disadvantaged candidates to even know if you're discriminating. You'll judge the "system" based solely on whether the set of candidates you got achieved the outcome you needed. ~~~ BasHamer train it. Give it examples that we consider moral and examples of what we consider immoral and have it figure it out. The solutions that the algorithms create are less complex than the data that they base the solutions on; so it should be relatively easy for it to model these solutions as data. We would have to train it on what we consider moral and immoral; that would require us to visualize the solutions in a way that a human can make the determination and provide the feedback. As far as how we get to the solution, that will probably come when there is a liability for discrimination. So lawsuits like the one mentioned. I think that mandating does not work well, it would be more appropriate to make people liable for the decisions made by amoral systems. This liability would create a demand for moral systems. ~~~ jerf "Give it examples that we consider moral" That's a tall order, honestly. There's a lot of things in the current dominant SV philosophy that are fine and dandy and everybody thinks they agree with everybody else about them as long as everyone carefully agrees to not sit down and actually put numbers on the terms in question ("discrimination is bad!" "I agree!"), but when it comes time to write down concrete rules and provide concrete examples ("hiring a woman is 43.2% preferable to hiring a man; hiring an African American is 23.1% preferable to hiring a Chinese person") are going to make people _squirm_ , and everyone involved in such a project is going to do everything in their power to avoid having to deal with the result. I bet there's a number of people reading this post _right now_ squirming and deeply, deeply tempted to hit that reply button and start haranguing me about those numbers and how dare I even think such things, as you've been trained to find someone to blame for any occurrence of such words and I'm the only apparent candidate. But I have no attachment to the numbers themselves and I pre-emptively acquiesce to any corrections you'd care to make to them, for the sake of argument. I expect a real model would use more complicated functions of more parameters, I just used simple percentages because they fit into text easily. But any algorithm _must_ produce some sort of result that looks like that, and once you get ten people at a table looking at any given concrete instantiation of this "morality", 9.8 of them are not going to agree it's moral. I cite the handful of articles we've even seen in peer-reviewed science journals, sometimes linked here on HN, which discuss the discriminatory aspects of this or that current ML system, while _scrupulously_ avoiding answering the question of what exactly a "non-discriminatory" system actually is. It's one of those things that once you see it you can't unsee it. (And given that these papers are nominally mathematical papers by nominally "real scientists", if I were a reviewer I'd "no publish" these papers until they fix that oversight, because it isn't actually that useful to point out that an existing mathematical system fails to conform to a currently- _not_ -existing mathematical standard.) ------ afpx Excellent news! Up until age 39, I was never _not_ given an offer after interviewing. Now after 40, my offer rate has dropped to 1 in 14. So much for the claims that there is a shortage in tech. So crazy. ~~~ p0nce Readers: what's your exit strategy? You probably need one. ~~~ ashelmire Age discrimination in tech is dumb. I've got a dev 30 years my senior sitting across from me and I guarantee he will code circles around 90% of the devs on HN, and 100% of the new grads getting jobs at big tech (and will until he dies). He's got a huge amount of knowledge in programming, our domain (NLP), he's fast, thorough, and thoughtful. Honestly I don't get the obsession with recent grads. They are basically useless for years. ~~~ agotterer Some of reasons I’ve seen for ageism in startups are cost and “not a culture fit”. Cost I understand, but I believe more experienced people end up being cheaper in the long run when you account for speed, correctness, and long term maintainability. The culture piece stems from the “would I get a beer with this person” and will he/she work as “hard” as a younger candidate with less responsibilities. Startups need to start realizing that it’s okay to have diversity and different cultural groups. By putting yourself in the stereotypical startup culture box you greatly limit your ability to hire and create diversity. If everyone thinks and acts the same you miss out on valuable perspectives and ideas. ~~~ toomuchtodo Startups aren’t going to change. The goal should be to marginalize their influence and effects on tech hiring. They are simply not important enough (by hiring volume) to carry the weight they currently do. ~~~ B0btheBuilder >They are simply not important enough (by hiring volume) to carry the weight they currently do. Unforunately, they are. A large proportion of the tech industry is startups / small businesses. I'd be surprised if Google/Facebook/Amazon/Apple/Microsoft make up even 10% of tech workers. ~~~ toomuchtodo Citation please. Startups are minuscule compared to total tech jobs. My current employer employees more tech workers than all YC startups combined, for example. ~~~ B0btheBuilder Google - 85,050 employees ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google)) Facebook - 25,105 employees ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook)) Amazon has 566,000 employees ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_(company)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_$company$)), but it's unclear how many of those are actually tech workers. Amazon has a lot of retail and warehouse workers, many of who with wages so low they qualify for food stamps. Apple - 123,000 employees ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Inc.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Inc.)) Apple's 2014 SEC filing said that half of their employees are retail workers, so let's give Apple 62,000 tech workers. Microsoft - 124,000 employees ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft)) There are around 7 million tech workers in the USA ([https://www.comptia.org/about-us/newsroom/press- releases/201...](https://www.comptia.org/about-us/newsroom/press- releases/2017/04/03/us-tech-sector-employment-approaches-seven-million)) Even if we pretended that all 566,000 Amazon employees were actually tech workers (they're not) and the above numbers were US-only employees (they're not), that would total to about 860,000 tech workers. 860,000 / 7 million = 12.3% That means that at least 87.7% of American tech workers do not work at Google, Facebook, Amazon, Apple, or Microsoft, despite these companies being five of the richest tech companies in the world. ~~~ toomuchtodo None of this validates your thesis that startups and small businesses are the majority tech employers. If anything, it reinforces mine. ------ danschumann I sometimes wonder how much the fear of something is actually an additional problem to the thing itself. NOTE: I am not denying agism exists, I'm wondering about the additional problem of fear of agism. The fear that someone might be agist, might make you look at them judgmentally/suspiciously. If you look at your interviewer judgmentally/suspiciously they likely won't hire you, and they probably feel pretty suspicious about you. If you walk into an interview and say, "I know I'm old, and you probably won't hire me because you want a young person", well, obviously they won't hire you because you sound depressed. Again, this is not to say that some people aren't agist, even if the candidate shows none of these signs. I'm just wondering how much of factor the fear of agism is, compared to agism itself, on a regional level. Are there any people who do clinical studies here? ~~~ mlthoughts2018 While this might be interesting academically, I think if ageism is a problem that might generically scare candidates, then that too is _the ageists fault_ for creating that culture of policy, and not a candidate's fault for sincerely being worried about something that is actually worth worrying about. We could say something similar about racism. "How much of a factor the fear of racism is, compared to racism itself..." It seems silly to really spend any time on this type of second-order extra effect when there are real, harmful, huge first-order effects (namely, _actual racism_ and _actual ageism_ ) demonstrably happening. We should focus on the big, up-front, obvious monster standing right in front of us, instead of asking, how much of our problem is caused by the monster in front of us as opposed to a hypothetical monster in the closet, and letting it distract us (or worse, trying to flip things around and blame candidates for being too sensitive or try to sympathetically justify what ageist businesses are doing to their long-time employees or to older job candidates). ~~~ danschumann The racist wins if he can spoil your other interviews. Let's say you have 4 interviews, the first one has a racist, and it's obvious. Now let's say you get bitter and resentful, and you blow your other 3 interviews, even though those 3 people aren't racist. The racist is happy(if he finds out) because not only did he prevent you from getting his job, he messed with your head and prevented you from getting the attainable 3 jobs. So, within the scenario above, racism can take one toll or many tolls. And this is on the individual level, wherein people operate from day to day. They need a job. It would seem that being able to reset expectations, forgive, forbear, and go into the subsequent 3 interviews would be the ideal strategy to achieve success in job hunting, and prevent the racist from doing the most damage. Since you mentioned 2nd order effects: how much do the 2nd order effects recreate/reinforce the first order effects? This would be another psychological survey I would be interested in. If someone is fearful of racists, how many people are likely to become more racist as a result of this fear ( either themselves or people they come in contact with )? Isn't racism based on fear in the first place? Fear of other races? ( and therefore a reaction to fight or flight arbitrarily based on race? ) Batman: "Gee Robbin, I notice you are afraid when you are around people of other races" Robbin: "Well it's because I think they're racist against me" _slap_ Batman: "Robbin you are becoming the thing you fear the most!" ~~~ mlthoughts2018 This sounds alarmingly similar to something like, _the terrorists win if we don 't watch the NFL on Sunday while drinking mainstream American beers._ The racist or ageist "win" if they are not held accountable, with visible punishment, for their racist or ageist actions. They don't "win" through bespoke second order effects of their first order actions. In terms of what a candidate should do, it's a heuristic. I choose to apply the heuristic of, "be really wary and cautious that self-interested commercial entities have incentives to generally be ageist or racist." I pay a cost sometimes when that heuristic was suboptimal. But it's worth it to avoid super widespread predatory practices in a bunch of other cases. Worrying about the hyper-optimized policy that accounts for secondary perceptions of my fear of ageism seems like a huge waste, huge premature optimization effort that could be better spent choosing a simple heuristic and focusing on the up-front, obvious, primary ageism or racism issues. To boot, honestly, if an employer gets some kind of "weird vibe" from me because I ask questions or discuss policies from an anti-ageism point of view, and this leads them to reject me, then probably my heuristic was right, and really there are internal dysfunctions in that company that I am better off avoiding. Corporations can harm applicants and employees in so many ways that it often really is better to have a default belief that this is what they are trying to do, and take a very risk-averse heuristic to just avoid places that give off even slight signals, like if they treat you like you're weird for taking a proactive, positive stance on it. If they reject you, you're probably dodging a nasty bullet anyway. ------ bo1024 Many of the posts here focus on ageism but this is just one example of discriminatory algorithms/ML in action. Don't be surprised if the same headline reappears soon with gender or race substituted. There is currently an academic movement often called "fairness in machine learning" aiming to correct these kinds of behaviors in automated systems. ~~~ gowld As the former-kids say, "Simpsons did it". We already had the news cycle over racial discrimination in ads. [https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/27/nyregion/facebook- housing...](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/27/nyregion/facebook-housing-ads- discrimination-lawsuit.html) ~~~ Jeff-Stryker >We already had the news cycle over racial discrimination We will have it again. News is manufactured. Discrimination in the news is meant to splinter the populace. You Old people need to fear and hate the young (millennials vs. Boomers) You Black people need to fear and hate the whites You White people need to fear and hate the latinos You Gay people need to fear and hate the transsexuals It is a constant barrage if you are paying attention. Divide and Conguer. ------ jcadam I currently work (as of 6 months ago) at a company where the software engineering staff is made up almost exclusively of two types of people: 1.) young 20-somethings who were hired right out of college. They do all of the coding and grunt work (for cheap). 2.) A smaller set of 55+ engineers who are coasting into retirement. They do all of the architecture and design work. I was recruited rather aggressively and eventually accepted an offer (I'm definitely being paid on the high side for this area). As a 38 year old, this place is incredibely lonely (I have no "peers"). I have absolutely no idea why they hired me. The "elders", who have been at the company for 20+ years, are hostile, backstabbing and hoard all of the interesting work (and credit) for themselves. My "lead" (not the manager who made the decision to hire me - I never see that person now) seems to be actively sidelining me - I've been assigned nothing but grunt work. ------ JaceLightning I mean, are we going to start suing companies who go to career fairs at colleges too? ~~~ csixty4 There are plenty of older college students. There were lots of grey hairs in my night classes. ~~~ dominotw Not in the places where top tech companies are willing to go to. ~~~ electricslpnsld I don't think this is true -- most of the Ivys have entire schools dedicated to older 'nontraditional' students (see, for example, the Columbia University School of General Studies), and Google/Facebook/etc recruit quite heavily from the Ivys. ~~~ dominotw > Google/Facebook/etc recruit quite heavily from the Ivys. Yes but do they recruit older non traditional students. Schools catering to them doesn't automatically imply that they are being hired by google. ~~~ lainga You just moved the goalposts from "don't recruit where there are older students" to "yes, they recruit there, but do they recruit the older students". ~~~ dominotw ok. I see what you mean. > don't recruit where there are older students But they don't recuit from 'schools dedicated to older 'nontraditional' students ' My original comment is still true > Not in the places where top tech companies are willing to go to. "places" here can be 'schools dedicated to older 'nontraditional' students' within Ivies. ------ eli I'm not sure I agree that it's Facebook's fault that people use its platform to target ads illegally, but clearly you shouldn't be targeting job ads to people by age. ~~~ kinsomo > I'm not sure I agree that it's Facebook's fault that people use its platform > to target ads illegally, but clearly you shouldn't be targeting job ads to > people by age. It seems reasonable to me that an automated ad platform should take steps to prevent users from running illegal ads. It seems like it would be fairly easy, at least for discriminatory ad types: just look at the law and gray out selectors for protected classes when an ad for employment, housing, etc. For instance, if you run an employment ad, age, race, and gender demographic selectors should be disabled. ------ ivanhoe Older devs don't buy the CEO's BS that easy and don't care about table tennis, you need to pay them in real money - which obviously makes them a completely wrong fit for so many players in the industry... ------ master_yoda_1 Facebook themselves are a big age discriminator in recruiting. Most of the company in the silicon valley do age discrimination. ------ edikit It doesn't seem like the blame should fall on Facebook here, but rather the companies using Facebook's tools to age discriminate (assuming there is even blame to place at all). Age-based targeting can be applied across their entire platform, not just for job postings, and it can be applied in either direction (i.e. companies can also create ads targeting only people over the age of 40). > In the amended complaint, CWA alleged that Facebook encourages advertisers > to exclude some job-seekers by providing both age filters and regularly > updated data on how ads perform among different age groups. IMO, this complaint achieves the opposite of what they want it to achieve. It suggests that the age-related metrics that Facebook offers are a) explicitly defined by the individual advertiser and b) are used to objectively determine the ad's effectiveness rather than to unjustly discriminate. ------ mesubli So, where do the veterans go? [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17179054](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17179054) ~~~ Spooky23 Get a reverse mortgage, work for Home Depot, the government, or lobby for UBI. ------ cm2012 This is really dumb if you understand how Facebook's advertising algorithm works. It's going to optimize job ads towards people who click job ads. Young people are more likely to be looking for jobs than older people, and thus click job ads more. [1] So Facebook's ad algorithm's are going to target younger people because it's more cost effective, because they want to see these type of ads more by far. By the data, older people do not want to see these type of ads and thus are not shown them. If you did show it to them, they would complain about bad ads (anyone who does FB advertising gets a report from FB on how many people Xed out an ad, and too many is really bad for your account) Nothing to do with worker effectiveness or how HR treats older applicants, which is what 95% of the comments in this thread are taking the opportunity to talk about. [1] " About 60% of Millennials are currently open to a new job opportunity and are by far the most likely generation to switch jobs. To support that, 21% of Millennials in 2016 reported switching jobs within the past year, compared to roughly 7% of gen Xers and other non-Millennials. " [https://www.forbes.com/sites/larryalton/2018/01/22/millennia...](https://www.forbes.com/sites/larryalton/2018/01/22/millennials- arent-job-hopping-young-people-are-5-things-to-keep-in-mind/#26d1e0ab10d8) ~~~ kartan > So Facebook's ad algorithm's are going to target younger people because it's > more cost effective Because there is a technical explanation doesn't means that it is not discrimination. Actually discrimination had a lot to do about getting an individual differently because he/she is part of a group. We didn't baked a law, the machine did. It is not a good defense in a trial, or at least I hope it is not. A good read on this topic [http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/05/qa-should- artificial-...](http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/05/qa-should-artificial- intelligence-be-legally-required-explain-itself) ~~~ cm2012 Discriminating based on _interest_ in job postings is very different than discriminating based on _type of applicant_. If you post a job ad in a job center, it's going to be seen by way more young people and older people won't get as much of a chance to see it. Same if you post job ads in colleges. Both of those common practices are more discriminatory than what FB's algorithm is doing here. ------ sandworm101 Take this from a former tech lawyer: The startups that only want kids and new grads are hiding skeletons. They know they are doing something incorrectly/illegally and don't want anyone in the building who is likely to recognize such mistakes, let alone object to them. They fear industry knowledge and experience. Typical example: I had a couple clients who sent new staff on unpaid "training" courses, in violation of labour laws. They only hired kids and so by the time I showed up this had been going on for ten years. The founders knew, but all under them didn't know a thing about labour laws, including the extensive HR department. Then one day a former employee sent an email ... and I handed the client to a litigator to prepare the response to the class action by former employees. ------ BadassFractal As someone approaching that 40yo cutoff soon enough, does that same apparent bias in hiring show up for managers and executives as well, or only hands-on individual contributors? Maybe there's a general perception that if you're in your 40s and you've worked hard enough, by then you should be a director or VP of some kind, and if you're not you must have messed up? I understand not everybody is meant for managerial ladder climbing, but is that perhaps the stereotype that everybody expects? ------ superkuh It'd be nice if these same protected class laws applied to the rampant and increasing age discrimination against 18 to 21 year old adults. Discrimination of them is not just common but baked into the culture and acknowledged as a good thing (ie, car rentals, firearm purchases, etc). They get all the downsides and responsibilities of being a full citizen but are treated as second class citizens. Sure, discrimination against the old happens. But it's not nearly as common or widespread as discrimination against the young. ------ this_na_hipster While I understand Ageism exists, I do see a trend change though. Take for example all these technical tracks in many companies now. All of these engineers are very tenured and usually very experienced(40+). In-fact they are considered irreplaceable by management since they set the vision of the company. Especially in the valley, the trend I notice is that you don't want to lose these "senior staff, staff engineers etc." ------ coliveira Discrimination is essentially THE business for FB advertisements in areas such as housing and job openings. It is just a fancy way to circumvent legal requirements that jobs must be posted independent of sex, racial, or religious affiliation. Similarly for housing offerings. ------ AlexCoventry What statutes would FB be violating, assuming their tools are being used in this way? I wish articles like this would provide a link to the complaint, which is presumably a matter of public record. ------ jhowell Maybe this company needs regulation. I think the benefit of the doubt can be used to hide reason. ------ GhostVII Would radio ads be discrimination because they generally target and older audience? Or TV adds on shows that are generally viewed by older audiences or younger audiences? If it is discrimination to only show Facebook job ads to certain demographics, it should also be descrimination to show ads on platforms only viewed by certain demographics. ~~~ oculusthrift lol this is a pretty lame argument. radio stations would love more young listeners. it’s a little differnt than intentionally filtering out some of your audience ------ oculusthrift devils advocate reasons to avoid older tech job seekers: 1\. they are less pliable. they have experience st other companies and typically want to keep doing stuff the way they did at their previous company. it’s a lot more work to make someone unlearn bad habits than teach them good ones 2\. If you have 20+ years of experience you should really be at the management or architect level. if you’re still a typical engineer (even senior) it may indicate a defect. 3\. Our company wants people to work insane hours and maybe your family prevents that ~~~ s73v3r_ The devil has plenty of advocates already. "2\. If you have 20+ years of experience you should really be at the management or architect level. if you’re still a typical engineer (even senior) it may indicate a defect." This is absolute crap; not wanting to be in management because you don't have the skillset for it is not a defect. This idea needs to die a painful death. ------ tannhaeuser In the sense that if you are "on Fb" you're old by definition I guess. ------ koolba If I advertise a job in a church newsletter am I screening out Jews, Muslims, and atheists? How about a job in a predominantly black newspaper, am I screening out Latino candidates? How about a job ad in a predominantly lesbian one, is that screening straight men? What about one in a youth newsletter or Facebook demographically targeted ad, is that screening out old people? I’d argue intent is what matters. If the goal is to reach a demographic you think will have fine candidates then proceed. If it’s purely exclusionary to circumvent labor laws because you’re avoiding someone else then it’s a problem. The analysis for this should not be at the inbound funnel, but instead at the net result based on the received candidate pool. That’s where you can see whether an actual bias exists. ------ MaxBarraclough I know almost nothing about the law here, but I imagine intent could be a big part of it. I'm surprised the Bloomberg article seems to make no mention of it. I was also surprised to see this: > Goldman wrote that, “Used responsibly, age-based targeting for employment > purposes is an accepted industry practice and for good reason: it helps > employers recruit and people of all ages find work.” Why would it ever be acceptable to deliberately filter on the grounds of age? ~~~ wmeredith What if they were targeting older workers as part of a diversity program? ~~~ bluGill That is discrimination against younger workers. Diversity programs are a double edged sword, there are groups that are under represented. However every time you target them you lose the larger group that you didn't target, and that group has great people. ~~~ rohansingh Not making a judgement either way, but just a heads-up— there's actually no federal prohibition against discriminating on the basis of youth. Age discrimination laws only work in one direction. ~~~ MaxBarraclough Interesting. Here in the UK, the law can work both ways, with exceptions where there is good reason. [https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and- courts/discriminat...](https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and- courts/discrimination/protected-characteristics/age-discrimination/) , [https://www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/work- learning/di...](https://www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/work- learning/discrimination-rights/the-equality-act/)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
UCLA Health System reports patient data breach; 4.5M may be affected - srikar http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-ucla-medical-data-20150717-story.html ====== higherpurpose The US government's "cybersecurity policy" is completely and utterly inadequate. Their thinking so far has been "well, let's leave aside the _actual security_ stuff, and focus on getting _cyber-weapons_ \- the more cyber-weapons we have, the scarier we'll be and nobody will touch us!" Yeah, _maybe_ that can work against a mid-level country like Iran. But what about China or Russia? Are they really going to be dissuaded from hacking US agencies and private companies because the US will hack them back? Are they going to be afraid that US threatens them with actual war? Nope. Then there are also the "guerrilla hackers", which could be anyone from random hacker groups, to cartels in Mexico to North Korea who doesn't care if you hack back its hundreds of PCs. Your scary cyberweapons aren't going to dissuade them either. The US government needs to stop making encryption and strong security (that itself can't hack) public enemy #1, and instead actually promote them in every single agency and raise security standards that private companies have to meet as well, _especially_ if they are storing sensitive customer data. As Schneier said earlier, the US has the most to lose out of all the countries by _actively trying to keep_ the web vulnerable.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ask HN: Facebook Java SDK - paradox95 For fun and to get more familiar with Java I have been writing what I will only call a Java SDK for the Facebook API. It is coming along quite nicely considering I have to basically recreate all the Facebook objects in Java. As long as you can pass your access token to the script you can easily call any of the objects the Facebook API will return. The JSON is all parsed and everything. Is this something anyone would be interested in? I am a couple days away from having implemented all of the Facebook objects and would need to clean up the code and do some documentation if I posted it online. ====== paradox95 It is still a few days away from being ready for anyone else but my email is tbeauvais[at]gmail[dot]com. ------ ericmsimons Very interested actually. Shoot me an email at [email protected]? ------ Garbage Interested! How can I contact you?	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Incrementally Improving the DOM - todsacerdoti https://blog.functorial.com/posts/2018-04-08-Incrementally-Improving-The-DOM.html ====== darkhorse13 I mostly agree with the author, but this is almost heresy these days. I tried to start a conversation recently about incremental DOM frameworks in a JS group, and immediately got like 6-7 comments, all negative.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Google warns of system-controlling Chrome bug - fortran77 https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2019/08/30/google-warns-of-system-controlling-chrome-bug/ ====== fortran77 How can this happen? And now that we're moving toward a browser monoculture, these attacks are very serious!	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Lisp as a Vehicle for Rapid Prototyping (1997) - deepaksurti http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/Hindsight.html ====== wry_discontent I've starting building my personal backends in Clojure and I am amazed at how easy and fast it is to get things going. The difference is even more remarkable for frontend code. I get my program into a state that displays some unfinished component and iterate until it's done. ZERO reloading is a huge time saver. Now if I could only get my React Native programs running with Clojurescript... ~~~ serpix re-natal does this and it works as advertised. Zero reloading, full repl connection to running program. There is no competition, and won't be. ~~~ wry_discontent I know what I'm doing tonight....rewriting my RN project ------ aidenn0 While I love lisp and use it for my projects, one should note that a lot has changed in the past 22 years. Python was far more primitive when this was written and ruby didn't exist. The tooling around lisp is still a distinguishing factor though. I haven't found a free development environment for python that has even a small fraction of the power of SLIME (I don't use python quite enough to investigate commercial offerings, though the one time I used pycharm it was fairly nice, it didn't feel as dynamic as SLIME), and it still has a fairly strong edge against most dynamic languages in terms of optimizing compilers. For some reason, outside of smalltalk/lisp, AOT compilation never caught on with dynamic languages, where you see either an interpreter or a JIT. ~~~ ken Which part relevant to this article has changed? Python/Ruby still don't have a condition system. They don't have macros. Python added optional declarations recently but the compiler doesn't use them for optimization (or anything else). Generic functions are available as an add-on library, but aren't terribly well integrated. They both have separate debuggers which don't use their own language for debugging. Python/Ruby do have dynamic redefinition and higher-order functions and a couple other nifty features, but most of the features I see on this page are still unique to Lisp. ~~~ aidenn0 \- It is comprehensive. \- It supports modular design. \- It supports interactive development, debugging, and update. These things are true of Ruby and Python in a way that they are not for C, C++, or to a lesser extent TCL. ------ alpaca128 I started learning a bit of Common Lisp a few weeks ago. It seems quite nice in many areas, but for rapid prototyping I feel like it cannot compete with Python. Maybe it's just because I'm more used to Python and imperative code in general, but so far I used no other language where I managed to get something working just as quickly and painlessly. ~~~ iLemming I switched from Python to Clojure. And I used handful of other PLs before that. I can say the same thing: "so far I used no other language [but Clojure] where I managed to get something working just as quickly and painlessly". I liked Python. But I love Clojure. ------ MrLeap I have an on again off again relationship with LISP. I _loved_ scheme in college. I went to a college where java was predominately taught, but after my second year I rolled my dice with every professor to let me do assignments in scheme. A few went for it. It just clicked, and I felt like I could build anything. After college, I didn't use any Lisps for a long time. I tried to get back to it. I tried installing common lisp. I remember the installation process being kind of insane. It felt like I was installing an operating system. The dev ergonomics were weird. I couldn't get it to click again like it did in college. I messed with (fluxus) for a while. I LOVE live coding stuff, and it treating oGL as a first class standard library is so cool. It seemed like a single guy's passion project. It lacked some facilities that made it click as a daily driver. Also, installing it on my mac was a colossal pain in the ass due to pulse audio issues. Not too long ago I installed racket. The installation process was painless, and I wrote enough with it that I started to feel that magic again... but then.. I .. wrote too much? DrRacket was nice when I started, I like images appearing in the REPL. It quickly revealed itself to be hot steaming garbage. SCROLLING is so slow and flickery in a 225~ line source I wrote that it's beyond distracting. I tried to play around with perlin noise, and generating an image of regular sizes required me to click this alert doubling Dr.Racket's ram allowance like 3 times. I'm sure that's my code's fault, but I'm probably not sticking with it long enough to find out.. I'll try again in a few years I guess. ~~~ gizmo385 Have you given Clojure a try? ~~~ MrLeap I haven't. I've been prejudiced against the jvm for most of my career (mostly because of how heinously Oracle has treated Sun's corpse). I'm over it now. Thanks for reminding me to consider it. I'll look at it today. ~~~ BoiledCabbage It reminds me of a real world Scheme. Not identical, but similar. ------ segmondy Any interpreted and most weakly typed langauges are great for prototyping. lisp, clojure, python, php, ruby, javascript, prolog, smalltalk, basic, lua. I would say clojure & javascript lead the pack due to their support for concurrency. ~~~ Jtsummers Lisp is not interpreted or weakly typed. It is dynamically typed, but also strongly typed. And Common Lisp is typically compiled.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
America’s national vacation problem - m-i-l http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-34123906 ====== michaelt It's impressive how big cultural the gap is between people not taking their full vacation entitlement and people not taking their full salary. I've had people try to hand back vacation days - but I've never had anyone try to hand back salary. Personally I try to take all my vacation because, as a professional, I have an obligation to make sure the company could keep going if I change jobs or get hit by a bus. Doing routine tests for bus factor resiliency is as important as testing your backups restore and your backup power works right :) ~~~ eru Bankers in many countries are even required to take off two weeks in a block each year; and no communication with the office. That's to make the books harder to cook, but I am sure it helps many of them stay sane. ------ onion2k All the people in the video who say they check in with work while they're on vacation 'in order to help out their colleagues' \- if you _really_ want to help out your colleagues, pick up their work when they're on vacation so they don't need to do work when they're on holiday. ~~~ Already__Taken Checking in with work like this is a sign you aren't well organised or the structure of the company isn't correct. Why aren't you keeping colleagues informed enough to cope without you for even a week. Why are you the only person contactable for certain issues. etc. Drives me mad when schools shut for summer and the only person who can purchase things has sodded off. ~~~ yummyfajitas It's not always easy or possible to have redundancy for every role. At a company with 20 devs, hiring 2pms, 2 data scientists and 2 DBA just to handle vacation coverage is not realistic. At MS or FB this makes sense, but lots of places are much smaller. Sometimes the best business decision is not the most convenient one for the employees - life is full of tradeoffs. ~~~ CaptainZapp So, how do you handle this in a country, in which you're legally obliged to provide vacation to your employees? Just flout the law? ~~~ yummyfajitas I'd just avoid hiring in such countries. India and the US have lots of great developers. I don't see a reason why I'd ever hire devs in Europe. ~~~ wfo You're right, we should just move our businesses to whichever countries currently allow the most exploitation and abuse of workers and race to the bottom. Why not just cut to the chase and implement slavery already? It's the most economically efficient method of production after all. ~~~ yummyfajitas Slavery is not economically efficient at all. The fact that economists pointed this unpleasant fact out is what got economics tagged with the phrase "the dismal science". [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_dismal_science](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_dismal_science) ~~~ wfo I think you misunderstand the article, the term comes from Carlyle rejecting the free market as a philosophical principle, not some efficiency analysis. And in fact his essay was a defense of plantation owners whose businesses were failing because they had just lost access to extremely efficient slave labor thanks to inconvenient regulations. If the economy were a little more global back then, those plantation owners should have moved their businesses to different, more slavery/business- friendly countries rather than adapt to the new human rights the workers had been given, no? ~~~ yummyfajitas Yes, the "philosophical principle" Carlyle was rejecting is economic efficiency. Slavery is not efficient because the world might contain a more productive employment opportunity for a slave, which the slave would freely choose if given the opportunity. I have absolutely no idea why you wish to portray slavery as economically efficient. Is it truly your belief that welfare is maximized with some people enslaved? (I suppose this is not a particularly uncommon left wing view, but it's very rarely stated so explicitly.) ~~~ wfo I think the ways we are using the phrase 'economically efficient' are different, and that's where much of the disagreement lies. In fact I'd reject the notion of the existence of a universal objective welfare function. If you include the welfare of slaves in your calculation certainly I'd agree that the system is inefficient; but since when has any slave owner done that? It's actually an extremely uncommon (nonexistent) left wing view that welfare is maximized with some people enslaved. Literally nobody believes that and I certainly hope for your sake that you don't believe anyone believes that and are just trying to be incendiary. It is a very common view among most people (since it's the truth) that the welfare of /certain people/ is maximized with /certain other people/ enslaved. And then we can conclude if the first group has economic power and is subject to no regulation and act according to maximizing their economic welfare, they will implement it. The contention is that your position, that businesses should refuse to operate in countries which regulate rights into existence since these rights have costs which hurt the bottom line of the business, if adopted leads directly and immediately to slavery. Slavery is unquestionably disgusting and reprehensible, so therefore your position, which leads to an unacceptable result, cannot be accepted. So I'm suggesting that the /subjective/ welfare of people in a position to own slaves (wealthy business owners) is maximized under slavery. And from that I conclude the maximization of the welfare of wealthy business owners -- the natural result of unfettered capitalism -- is something to be categorically rejected. So we need fetters. ~~~ yummyfajitas _It 's actually an extremely uncommon (nonexistent) left wing view that welfare is maximized with some people enslaved. Literally nobody believes that..._ Simply not true. Several elected officials believe or previously believed that, and some proposed legislation for that purpose: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_National_Service_Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_National_Service_Act) [http://thehill.com/policy/defense/236365-rangel-renews- call-...](http://thehill.com/policy/defense/236365-rangel-renews-call-for-war- tax-national-draft) [https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/111/hr5741/text](https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/111/hr5741/text) [http://www.infowars.com/obama-camp-scrubs-website-to- remove-...](http://www.infowars.com/obama-camp-scrubs-website-to-remove- references-to-mandatory-community-service/) _And then we can conclude if the first group has economic power and is subject to no regulation and act according to maximizing their economic welfare, they will implement it._ Yet strangely, that doesn't seem to happen. Multinationals with huge economic power and subject to minimal regulation tend to treat employees _better_ than smaller and weaker local companies (at least in India, the US, and other places I'm familiar with). I don't dispute much of what you wrote about why we shouldn't do business with those who practice slavery. I'd draw a very clear bright line: do workers agree to their terms of work? In India or the US, the vast majority of IT workers do. I guess you want to go further and tell my employer/me what work conditions are acceptable? ~~~ wfo Okay, if you define a required short limited period of service for public good as slavery then sure most civilized and uncivilized countries implement it and many people support it. I'll concede this point, though I don't think there's very many people in this universe who would use the word 'slavery' to describe this so you may be a unique snowflake in this regard. I think the reason multinationals treat employees better is because that since they are multinational, they are a single company subject to the laws of every nation: it is more efficient for them to treat EVERYONE by the same rights as the most stringent (Europe) whereas companies local to India or the US can abuse the lack of rights these countries give workers since they only deal with local workers. And I would agree with you about consent being the big bright line. Except I think consent is very complicated. If you allowed people to sign themselves into slavery, people would consent to slavery. No matter how awful something is, if it's allowed, people will "consent" to it -- the most desperate in society are forced by circumstances to consent to it. I think the word consent only has meaning when there are other meaningful options available. Which I think is the fundamental difference: the definition of consent. We all agree if someone puts a gun to your head and demands consent it's not consent: but what if a faceless nameless system forces you to die or consent to whatever some collection of business owners demand and you agree: is this consent or not? I say not really. ------ mirsadm I personally am strongly against any kind of "unlimited" vacation days or other such perks. In my experience hardly anyone takes advantage of them because they are made to feel guilty. Even most places that claim to offer working from home rarely have people take advantage of it due to the culture (not at desk means you're lazy). I prefer the employer just to be upfront and if I want to work from home then I'll negotiate to do that once a week upfront. ~~~ StavrosK These are two different issues. What you have a problem with isn't the "unlimited", it's the "no minimum". Would you have a problem with "unlimited vacation days, four weeks a year mandatory minimum?". As in, if you haven't taken any vacation when December rolls in, see you after new year's. ~~~ mirsadm That is a reasonable point. It is definitely one way to fix that particular perk. ------ Tepix So telling you that I have 30 days of paid vacation here in Germany wouldn't actually make a difference because you wouldn't take your 30 days if you had them? Btw, when I'm on sick leave that is also paid. ~~~ anon4 Also, I don't know how it's in Germany, but in other parts of Europe, your employer can _force_ you to take your vacation days. Most do it at the end of the year, because if you have unused vacation days and you quit, they have to pay you extra for the vacation days you lose by quitting. And as you noted, sick days aren't counted in that. In fact, I can take a one-day sick leave whenever I want without so much as a doctor's notice (company policy mainly due to the fact that taking a sick leave with a doctor's notice creates more administrative work which isn't worth it for a single day). ~~~ i_don_t_know I don't know either if your employer can force you to take your vacation. But I heard that your health insurance may deny benefits for stress related issues if they find out that you didn't take all of your vacation days. ~~~ mamon Here in Poland he can force you, and often does, because if it is found out that employees didn't take all of their vacation time the company can pay a substantial fee for that. ------ simonh I'm a UK employee of a US bank and manage 3 employees based in NY. To be perfectly honest I've not noticed any significant pressure on my US colleagues and team to not take vacation days. If anything my own US based manager is frequently reminding everyone to plan their vacations and not leave too much of their allowance until the end of the year. So clearly this culture of not taking full vacation days isn't ubiquitous, and of course the culture may be different in other parts of the bank - I work on the tech side. Maybe it's partly because as a global organization the US side has absorbed some of the vacation culture from other regions. Don't know. Having said that, contract employees are only paid for the days they attend, and they tend to take much fewer days off in the US than UK based contractors, typically maybe 2-5 or so per year. But that's their decision. ~~~ tallanvor Banks are a slightly different entity... It wasn't long ago when bank employees were actually required to take at least 2 weeks straight off once a year. Of course, this wasn't for the employee's health, rather it gave the bank time to catch any sort of embezzlement or other such activities the employee may have been up to. These days there are more controls and technology has ended some of common ways to try and hide bad transactions (such as sending checks to the wrong processing center or structuring transactions such that they'll take longer than they normally would). A lot of banks have removed this requirement now, but the culture of planning vacations remains in that industry. ------ Bonogongo What I found interesting in the past compared to the US: "Why Germans Work Fewer Hours But Produce More: A Study in Culture" [http://knote.com/2014/11/10/why-germans-work-fewer-hours- but...](http://knote.com/2014/11/10/why-germans-work-fewer-hours-but-produce- more-a-study-in-culture/) ------ hellofunk After moving to the Netherlands, my wife and I were astounded and rather impressed by the extraordinary attitude towards holidays here. Every single person we know on our street and acquaintances we have met since being here takes nearly an entire month off during July or August. Now that is quite refreshing! People actually leave work around 430 or five in the afternoon. The one difference however is that everyone is usually at work quite promptly no later than 8 AM. ~~~ datalist The minimum leave in the Netherlands is 20 days, four weeks. So that would mean that those people take their entire vacation in one go, not having anything (or barely anything) left for the rest of the year (eg. end of December, ....). ~~~ dagw How many professional only have the minimum leave in the Netherlands? Most people I know in Sweden have more than the minimum after a few years of work. ~~~ datalist Cant tell how common additional days above the minimum leave are in NL (you'd need to know these numbers). But even if you consider the usual five to eight days it would come as a surprise to me if it really was common to take off an entire month in one go as even then one would be barely left with any remaining days (as compared to none before). Some people will certainly do it, but not everybody. ------ throw09072015 I've always been one to take full advantage of my vacation, since I don't define myself by my work. Everyone looks forward to the weekend, right? Then why not take a few vacation days to make your weekend longer, or 2 weeks off to totally refresh? Downside is that one time I was "let go" while out of the country and told I didn't need to come back to the office. I guess sometimes the vacation days in your contract are more of a threat than a perk. ------ newman314 Which is why work is a social contract. Well, it used to be but the pendulum has swung too far in one direction. ------ daxfohl I'll stand up for the US system. I personally like it. I don't like "vacations". What do you really gain just spending a couple weeks elsewhere? I don't even particularly care for weekends. I'd far rather be able to really focus on work, really getting stuff done, not have to deal with coworkers all being on vacation, saving hard for retirement or whatever, and then every couple years, go off and do something completely different (paid or unpaid). And I'm certainly not saying this from a "this proves American workers are the most hardworking" junk attitude. I simply find life more enjoyable this way. Then, that's my young, single self talking. Perhaps with a family moderation is more important. EDIT: People are misunderstanding my post, assuming I mean I don't do anything but work. On the contrary I've been to 30+ countries, lived in 5, biked across Asia, spent a year teaching English in Korea. This is difficult with just "vacation time". PLUS this style allows me to be really focused on / interested in my work when I'm in that phase of life. ~~~ ctolsen Good for you, and maybe you're an outlier, but everything we know about work tells us that this is counterproductive. It's good for productivity, health, and well-being if people get to disconnect completely from work. As a company, it doesn't even make sense to have people work like you do, because they are more creative and productive if they do take time off. One study reported on here: [http://www.forbes.com/sites/tanyamohn/2014/02/28/take-a- vaca...](http://www.forbes.com/sites/tanyamohn/2014/02/28/take-a-vacation-its- good-for-productivity-and-the-economy-according-to-a-new-study/) – and there are plenty of similar results elsewhere. But, by all means, if this is how you enjoy life then go right ahead. I and many other people wouldn't like that lifestyle though. ~~~ daxfohl The odd thing is, I don't see how someone can disconnect completely from work for just a week or two. I recently took a two-week trip to BC and even ditched my laptop for the 2nd week, but nonetheless was thinking about work a good portion of that time. ------ staticelf Wow. Work-life-balance reallys sucks in the US and A. Get your shit together // Sweden. ------ thearn4 As a federal employee, I already know I would probably have a hard time adjusting to the terrible work/life imbalance common in American private industry. I don't think closing the pay gap (probably about $10k-$15k difference in my case) would change my mind much either. I work a very honest 80 hours per two-week pay period, and use my 4 weeks of annual leave far removed (at least mentally) from the workplace. Seldom do I feel any push back on that, either. ------ 5555624 I may be the only one, but I see a difference between "vacation" and "vacation days." It's been a long, long time, since I took a "vacation," where I had a week to ten days off. On the other hand, I use all of the 26 vacation days I get. While I take a few days here and there, mostly I take Fridays off and make three-day weekends. (Sometimes four-day weekends.) ------ greggman Met a French woman who gets 4 months off a year. 4 MONTHS!!! Apparently 2 months is the minimum in France. I will note she hates her job (some kind of auditing). I don't hate my job but at the same time the more I hear about many European countries vacation policies the more I question the USA's typical policies. ~~~ greggman WTF was this downvoted? What did I say that pissed people off so much they felt this was worth of a downvote? First off 7 French natives have told me the minimum is 2 months. 3 work at Nintendo of France and brought this up in relation to their Japanese co- workers in Japan. Even though Nintendo is a Japanese company it has to abide by French laws for it's office in Paris. 1 works at a Nuclear Power Plant. She's the one that gets 4 months off a year. Yes, she actually gets 4 months off paid vacation. This is not a lie. 3 others are currently working in Japan, 2 in Kyoto, 1 in Tokyo, not working for French companies, frustrated at the lack of vacation relative to France. They might have been wrong but that's what they believe. Second it doesn't matter if it's 40 days off a year or 25. That's still INFINITELY MORE THAN THE USA which is has a mandatory minimum of ZERO days off and still entirely makes the point that lots more vacation than is typical in the USA is at least something to be considered.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
The Little Printf - lelf https://ferd.ca/the-little-printf.html ====== mcguire " _It is; and because you 're the most familiar person with these fires, you get to only work on them more and more, until your employer hires someone else to cover your old job, the one you loved. If you care hard enough about your work to be the one doing the stuff everyone else hates, you're thanked by doing more and more of that work you don't like, until that's all you do. And then there's nothing left for you to enjoy._" Sigh. ~~~ deadmik3 This stood out as the most realistic advice in the story to me. I've seen a lot of people stuck working on stuff they don't like just because they're the one who knows the most about it. The farther you go down that path, the harder it is to get away. ~~~ Kalium This one stood out to me as well. Like you, I agree that it's accurate. I've both seen and lived it. The others bother me because they're essentially malicious caricatures. This one feels like a dose of sympathy. ~~~ mononcqc Yeah. They're malicious caricatures, but as mentioned in the text, they're all different sub-personalities I've at least had at some point in my career. Also do note that the text is heavily copying The Little Prince, to the extent that all characters are also malicious caricatures of adults, with only one of them actually being perceived positively, so I tried to play to the original. ------ bootsz _" The games people play, the roles and reputations they chase and entertain, the fleeting pleasure they derive from solving intricate problems, is all fun for a while. Ultimately though, if you do not solve anything worthwhile, if you forget about the people involved, it's never gonna be truly fulfilling." "It is the time you have spent on your system that makes it so important", the man added, "and when you lost sight of why it made sense to spend time on it, when it became a game of pride, it caused more grief than relief. "Developers have often forgotten this truth; If you lose sight of things, working on your system becomes its own problem, and the most effective solution is to get rid of the system, given it's the problem."_ This story is easily one of the best depictions of the software engineering profession I've ever come across. I originally got hooked on programming because of the thrill of solving "intricate problems"... but the fleeting nature of that thrill only becomes more and more apparent as time goes on. Fundamentally I think it's necessary to have a deeper motivation, a bigger "why" behind what you do, in order to sustain your satisfaction from day to day. ------ rdtsc A real gem. If you have time check out his other work: [https://ferd.ca/](https://ferd.ca/) Some of it is Erlang specific but other posts are quite general about distributed systems, overload handling, etc. He is also the author of [https://learnyousomeerlang.com/](https://learnyousomeerlang.com/) ------ jlg23 Priceless if you read "the little prince"[1] - if not, stop now and invest the hour to do that first. I make all my (adult) guests listen to the audiobook when driving through Tarfaya, where the author was working as a pilot for French aerial post. [1] [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Little_Prince](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Little_Prince) ~~~ klipt There's also a musical! [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViK7qT8TS5w#t=3m58s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViK7qT8TS5w#t=3m58s) ------ klodolph I know that this article is fiction, but there's a common misconception about the Dunning-Kruger effect presented in the story that is worth understanding. People think that Dunning and Kruger showed that less competent people think that they're more competent than more competent people think they are, but this is not what Dunning and Kruger showed, if you'll excuse the complicated sentence construction (the article linked below has a graph and explains this a bit better). Actually, Dunning and Kruger simply showed that a person's estimate of their own skill tends to be _closer to the mean, plus a little_ than their actual skill level. The Dunning-Kruger effect has probably been a bit distorted because we like the idea that thinking you are good at something is evidence that you are not, in fact, good at that thing. See also "what the Dunning-Kruger effect is and isn’t" \- [https://www.talyarkoni.org/blog/2010/07/07/what-the- dunning-...](https://www.talyarkoni.org/blog/2010/07/07/what-the-dunning- kruger-effect-is-and-isnt/) ~~~ mjw1007 Hm, that relationship is also what you'd get if people were perfect at estimating their own skill while the proxy being used by the researchers was imperfect, isn't it? ~~~ klodolph Well, you would get _broadly speaking_ a similar relationship. General error in the measurement would appear as a regression to the mean. However, Dunning and Kruger addressed this in their paper, directly, in section 4.1.3. The actual metric that the researchers measured was actual class rank and estimated class rank. Class rank is well-defined, and estimated class rank is also well-defined. That's not to say that class rank is a perfect choice of metric, but you _are_ asking students to estimate something which can be exactly measured. The paper showed a difference in the size of the error between top and bottom quartile students that was larger than you would expect if it were just uniform error. When you think about it, this seems pretty damn obvious... if you are bad at something, you are also bad at knowing that you are bad at it. But if you are good at something, you have a more accurate understanding of your own skills. In short, if you're good at something, you probably know that you are good at it. This is what goes against the popular notion of the Dunning Kruger effect. Many people seem to use Dunning Kruger as some kind of twisted justification for impostor syndrome, where you are not permitted to think you are good at something because it would paradoxically imply that you are not good at it. I say this, just because I know too many people suffering from impostor syndrome, and this incorrect impression of Dunning Kruger seems to be a contributing factor. ------ clort I find it a little sad that he did not credit Antoine de Saint-Exupéry who wrote this story and created the drawings in 1943 after he crashed his aeroplane in the sahara desert and and met the real little prince there. Also, that the comments so far are very complimentary but it is not clear that the writers know the original story and I am most concerned that the warning about the Baobabs is not included! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Little_Prince ~~~ mononcqc because Le Petit Prince is one of the most translated and sold books ever, and that the title was a very direct reference, I just didn't feel it would be necessary to include a note saying it's based on the little prince story since it felt obvious to me. My bad. ~~~ nyghtly You're right, it is obvious ------ anonlastname it took me until the 5th chapter to realize this is a parody of "The Little Prince" ------ aronowb14 :,) ------ sifoobar I call my little Printf Snigl [0], but (s)he's been telling me the same story. Can't do it any more, I have no more fucks to give about saving the world and awesome profits. [https://gitlab.com/sifoo/snigl](https://gitlab.com/sifoo/snigl)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Texting Base Launches New Personalized Marketing Automation Platform - beansedb So this is my big announcement…many of you are right. As of right now, Texting Base is officially launched! For those who don’t like to read, that’s it! Click on the link and see why it took so damn long and let me know what you think. Accounts are free. No credit card needed.<p>For those who like stories of craziness feel free to read on.<p>3 years and 3 months ago, I did one of the craziest things a human being can do…I started a software company with no money. This might be an OK idea if I were a programmer but is absolutely insane if a person is NOT a programmer. I am not a programmer.<p>No one had built a “group texting” platform for businesses where no matter how many people were in the group, each recipient got their own personal message that they could respond to.<p>Through a series of miracles that have made me reevaluate my place in the Universe and the existence of a higher power, I am pleased to announce Texting Base is finally out the door.<p>Without putting in your credit card, you can:<p>- Create an account<p>- Access the system<p>- Upload contacts<p>- Create groups<p>- Evaluate whether I am crazy or onto something<p>This is a business tool. Individuals can use it, but please don’t tell individuals about it…I don’t want to have to deal with anyone I don’t know unless they are a larger user. If I try to support 10,000 individuals by myself, I will have a heart attack in 6 months.<p>My heart and soul went into a piece of software that I know for a fact will make lives better, save people time and make people money. I don’t want anyone pressured to sign up. Selling this is not my concern. I would like people to take a look at the product, provide feedback and refer anyone they think could use this product. ====== showkiller The following ur throws an error [http://www.textingbase.com/careers](http://www.textingbase.com/careers) ------ ahstilde I want to look into your service, but there's no link... ~~~ beansedb [http://www.textingbase.com](http://www.textingbase.com) Would love your feedback. Thank you.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ask HN: Do you ever feel powerless in sight of a problem? - andischo If yes, how do you deal with it?<p>I just spent the whole day trying to get a set up running (Ubuntu + CUDA) and nothing worked. I blindly followed one instruction after the other without understanding anything, which is thoroughly unsatisfying, but taking the time to really understand the problem isn't an option either, since I want to get working on the "real" problem of my thesis. Have you ever experienced something similar? How did you deal with it? ====== nvusuvu Get help. No man is an island. ------ cvaidya1986 Run 5 miles.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Inside the Mind of a Billion-Dollar Acquirer - robot http://www.inc.com/articles/201109/inside-the-mind-of-a-billion-dollar-acquirer.html?nav=featured ====== joshfraser I talked to one of my friends in M&A @ one of the top tech companies the other day. I was surprised to hear that their target is a 55% success rate for companies they acquire. They want it to be slightly better than a coin toss, but not so high that they over-think any deals. Their logic is that it's okay to have 50 failed deals, as long as they're the guys who find the next YouTube/Hotmail/PayPal. ~~~ PakG1 That's interesting. I bet that companies require acquihires to have a higher percentage of success (where I presume success here means the team staying, since the product is often shut down in acquihires). I wonder what M&A people would think would be a good percentage for acquihires. ------ nlh There was a post/link I read here recently that discussed the earn-out issue in depth and it's really colored my thinking on it (BTW - if someone can remind me whose post it was or point me in the right direction, that'd be hugely appreciated). I think they nailed it. Basically the idea was this: When you sell your business, you should be paid -- in cash -- for the value you've created. That's what a sale is, and that's what a sale should be. An earn-out represents value that _is yet to be created_ \-- the future interaction between your business and the acquirer's business. There's nothing wrong with that inherently, but recognize that it's really just an incentive for what is to come, not payment for what was done. Now, none of this is saying that you shouldn't accept a deal with an earn-out if that's what you've got in front of you. But you have to think about it differently -- If you built a business that you think is worth $100M and you sell it to BigCo for $100M, 50% of which is structured as an earn-out given revenue targets over 3 years - guess what....you didn't actually sell your business for $100M. You sold your business for $50M and agreed to a $50M compensation package in your new job. And with that new job comes the uncertainty of what your new owners will do. They could, conceivably, decide to close your division and lay everyone off after 6 months - having absolutely nothing to do with you or your team (this happens in big companies). So when the time comes, just make sure you have the right perspective about what price you're actually selling your company for. ------ frenchman_in_ny The other issue with the earn out, from the entrepreneur's point of view, is that you're providing the acquirer with effectively interest free financing for the earn out, while you're working on integrating. And there's nothing guaranteed in the earn out, and they're usually all-or-nothing structures (ie, get $0 if you hit 99% of target) ------ codeonfire Why would a business owner agree to an earn-out? That's like handing someone your equity and trying to earn it back from them over three years. I assume this is for acquisitions of unprofitable companies, otherwise traditional valuation methods could be used to determine the price. Buyer beware is a lot better system. ~~~ djt Beacause it takes risk away from the purchaser, making it (hypothetically) an easier sale and worth more money. Mergers are extremely susceptible in the first 12-24 months and can actually take down the parent company if mishandled. ~~~ codeonfire Yeah, but if they are told to meet a specific EBITDA, and the parent is charging expenses to the company, it would be in their interest to charge enough that the earn-out doesn't pay. If the parent gets to write checks with the company's money, then the earn-out goals should be on gross revenue. ------ enuncajon I'd love to have to deal with some of the earn-out problems discussed in this article... The part about corporate overhead was especially insightful to me, a good watch out. Thanks for posting.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Generative Art with CSS - lifthrasiir https://web.archive.org/web/20190416022012/https://generative-art-with-css.commons.host/ ====== lifthrasiir The Wayback Machine because `commons.host` is not universally available.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
AT&T cripples BlackBerry to make iPhone more appealing - jsjenkins168 http://blackberrycool.com/2007/08/16/005386/ ====== danw There must be a way of making the operators irrelevant	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
A Painting Robot? - npalacherla http://www.fastcodesign.com/1673084/watch-a-painting-robot-teaches-us-about-the-creative-process#1 ====== zjgreen So it could only recreate from past paintings, and then they give it a personality 'algorithm'? Not sure I get what's so special about this...	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Tinder must stop charging its older California users more for “Plus” features - hvo https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/01/tinder-must-stop-charging-its-older-california-users-more-for-plus-features/?comments=1&start=40 ====== detaro duplicate, please check before submitting: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16274114](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16274114)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Digital Ocean promo code for Aug 2014 - rk0567 Need a VPS server for side projects/blog/app ? Here is a promo code for $10 credit : SHIPITFAST10 (Worth two months of SSD hosting for free).<p>You can use my referral link if you wish : http://bit.ly/12666Dj ====== zencoder Thanks. My side project found a new home :-)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Stripe creates a typechecker for Ruby - noelwelsh https://twitter.com/darkdimius/status/1002049138366730240 ====== noelwelsh I guess this means types have "crossed the chasm". There isn't a mainstream language / platform that doesn't have some form of relatively modern type system. ------ ksec I hope their RubyKaigi2018 presentation will be online soon.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Why Do B-Schools Still Teach The Famed 4P's Of Marketing, When Three Are Dead? - brd http://www.fastcodesign.com/1665331/forget-about-the-4-ps-only-one-matters-product ====== kstenerud Because those three are not dead. Promotion is required when your competitive advantage is not great enough to beat out the competition on product alone. Zara's advantage is their short time to market, which allows them to respond to consumers faster, and an infrastructure that allows low prices with acceptable margins. Google has a huge competitive advantage in their rise to ubiquity in what was then an immature market. Such is not, however, the norm. You see a lot of this in the online space simply because it hasn't been saturated yet. That will change, just like it did with general stores in the Old West. Place? Well the place is online. But it's more than that; place is discoverability. A URL is a place just as much as a downtown brick-and-mortar location is a place. It's about how easy and convenient it is for the customer to GET to your wares, and in the case of a URL it's all about ease-of- remembering. Also, people in many non-US countries don't even remember URLs. They use gateway homepages that direct them where they want to go. Getting placement on that page is paramount to online success. I expect we'll see a lot more of this even in the US as content curation becomes the norm. Price? Price is, and always has been, a major factor. Price sets customer expectation. High price implies quality, which attracts a certain class of customer. Low price? Well those aggregator sites are also frequented by a certain market segment. If your product falls within that segment as well, you must compete based on low prices. So yes, the 4 P's are alive and kicking, and will be for the foreseeable future.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
POV-Ray 3.7 is released under the AGPL3 - pwg http://povray.org/download/ ====== NonEUCitizen What license did it use prior to 3.7 ?	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Waze Hijacked L.A. in the Name of Convenience - overwhelm https://www.lamag.com/citythinkblog/waze-los-angeles-neighborhoods/ ====== nostromo > No street, certainly not your residential 25-mph variety, is safe from being > Wazed into a makeshift freeway or thoroughfare. ... These thousands of > homeowners and renters have arguably been injured by Waze’s and Google’s > successful privatization of formerly public streets. This is exactly backwards. The streets were effectively privatized before, via obscurity. It is Waze that has made formerly private streets public. ~~~ wcarron That's complete BS. The roads have always been there, fulfilling their designated purpose; which is to handle the small amount of traffic the neighborhood residents generate in a safe manner. They were never meant to handle massive amounts of traffic, which actually does damage property values when potential buyers are scared off by unsafe streets. ~~~ scarejunba Your property value isn't my problem. I have a right to that street that is no less than yours. ~~~ Doxin Sure, But people have a right to not unexpectedly live next to a highway as well. There's a balance here that needs to be struck and that balance is not doing whatever you like with disregard of if that bothers anyone else. ~~~ prepend Not if they live next to a public road. As long as folks follow the speed limit there’s nothing you should do. I mapped out the roads around my house before buying. If you live on a shortcut public road you’ll get lots of traffic. ~~~ Doxin > As long as folks follow the speed limit Right but isn't that the entire point? People following these shortcuts _don 't_ follow the speed limit. They _don 't_ drive carefully, and _even if they did_ the increase in exhaust fumes will cause premature deaths of the people living in these streets. Just because the infrastructure is built poorly to the point where driving through someones neighbourhood is faster than using the appointed thoroughfares doesn't mean the solution here is to just saddle those people with the problem. The solution is _improving infrastructure_ to where people don't feel the need to follow shortcuts, or at the very least to make sure there are no shortcuts that disadvantage some random part of the population. To me at least it doesn't seem fair that waze et al individually get to decide to make some streets unlivable. That's not freedom, that's a tyranny of those with power over those without. ~~~ prepend Then the issue is the speeders. Problem solved. Ticket them. The complaint in my neighborhood that I hear is that the speed limit is 25 and 35 and it’s followed. They just don’t like the traffic. ~~~ Doxin The issue is speeders. And noise pollution. And air pollution. And risk of getting hit. Driving a car on a street has externalities that need accounting for. ~~~ prepend Only speeding is against the law, all the others are part of living on a public street. Risk of getting hit goes up with speed but isn’t eliminated in lawful speed followers. ------ koboll >This has created fascinating potential legal issues that may one day be litigated in lawsuits or class actions. These thousands of homeowners and renters have arguably been injured by Waze’s and Google’s successful privatization of formerly public streets. So it's illegal to tell people that a public road might make for a faster route than the one a person is currently driving on? It seems like the real problem here is shitty urban planning. This is clearly a huge problem plaguing Los Angeles, in many ways beyond just this one. If you want to keep people off streets, pass ordnances that say non-residents can't cut through them. Otherwise, there's not much of a case against Waze here. ~~~ jcranmer > So it's illegal to tell people that a public road might make for a faster > route than the one a person is currently driving on? If doing so is encouraging reckless driving and causing public endangerment of the residents on the streets, why shouldn't it be? They're clearly contributing to a loss of safety. Especially consider that the kind of person who is willing to shave off 30 seconds a commute by cutting through a neighborhood is unlikely to be the kind of person who would travel the appropriate speed on said street without a cop and radar gun verifying it. ~~~ koboll I fail to understand how merely directing people toward a certain street amounts to encouraging reckless driving. ~~~ jcranmer For one thing, Waze is using the actual speed of drivers instead of the legal speed limit to determine the travel time of a route. If drivers are speeding, Waze is basing its time savings on drivers violating the law. In some of the conditions that are brought up in these stories, it's not even really safe to travel the legal speed limit. (And reckless driving includes travelling too fast for conditions). Given the resistance of Waze to merely cut out those routes that are not safe for through traffic, it's clear that they do not value safety and I hold little sympathy for them. ~~~ solveit I strenuously object to the idea that the government should be able to stop the spreading of publicly available truths in the name of public safety, especially over a justification as flimsy as "encourages reckless driving". I would be willing to revisit this debate when somebody figures out how to build nuclear weapons in their garage, not so much before that. ~~~ paggle How do you feel about government setting up speed cameras at all of these side streets and issuing citations to all speeders, even those 1mph over the limit, through dragnet surveillance? ~~~ thrower123 They'd have to collect a lot of tickets to justify the cost. Are there really not more important things the legal system could be using it's resources to combat? There are child molesters and drug dealers out there. ~~~ paggle The government is big and can do multiple things at once. Ensuring safe streets is an important responsibility. Vehicles kill many more people than child molesters and drug dealers combined. ~~~ thrower123 Opiods are giving car fatalities a run for their money. ------ PeterisP A nice quote from the article - "The mayor spoke proudly of this shining example of the city’s “data initiative,” and how the Waze partnership would “get people where they want to go, faster.”" followed by a dissatisfaction that it did not result in people getting sent to the roadways that the traffic planners wanted to. Guess what, people would absolutely get sent to the major roadways if (and only if!) those roadways would actually get people where they want to go, faster. If those roadways suck compared to the alternatives, then that points towards a duty of the major to improve those major roadways (which are obviously overwhelmed even after Waze helps by redirecting some traffic off of them), not a duty to drivers to simply suffer every day while sitting in a traffic jam on the "gov't recommended" route or the likes of Waze to keep mum about better alternatives. The article mentions the 'LA Complete Streets Official Guide' listing which streets the planners designated as arterial vs non-arterial - guess what, if there's a mismatch between the plan and how people can reach their destinations most efficiently, then _it is the plan that 's wrong and needs to change_, not the drivers. If you plan and build a wider, "faster" arterial route that's actually a huge diversion and drivers take shortcuts instead of following your route, well, too bad you wasted a bunch of money building a road noone needs based on a bad plan, it's not the fault of drivers that this road doesn't suit their needs. The city was free to use its partnership with Waze to determine where to _build_ (improve/widen/regulate) roads and intersections that would be a better fit for how people want to travel. However, instead of _listening_ to the people through that data, they wanted to use it to _tell_ people how to get where they want to be in a way that suits interests of city planners instead of the driver - and that's not how it works. ~~~ amluto > Guess what, people would absolutely get sent to the major roadways if (and > only if!) those roadways would actually get people where they want to go, > faster. If those roadways suck compared to the alternatives, then that > points towards a duty of the major to improve those major roadways I strenuously disagree. You seem to be saying that city planners and traffic engineers have to design with the constraint that a large subset of drivers will take the instantaneously fastest route rather than sticking to intended high-throughout roads. I suspect that this would have rather poor implications. It means that little residential streets that happen to parallel major streets will get used at their full capacity whenever the major streets drop below 25-ish mph. This, in turn, likely means that the little streets can’t safely be used by pedestrians and become unsafe for people trying to cross or exit driveways, let alone for kids who want to play. This sucks. It’s not clear what cities can do about it, but blaming the cities and saying that every last through street needs to be widened is not the answer. ~~~ enoch_r In Portland the city has put up "diverters," which block cars from continuing along a neighborhood street while allowing pedestrians and bikes through. It makes the street useless as a cut-through. I love this model and wish they'd sprinkle them every few blocks on every neighborhood street in the city. ~~~ WWLink I only ever see shit like this in affluent neighborhoods. ------ JMTQp8lwXL The problem isn't Waze. It's the sprawl and failure of urban planning. More dense, more mixed use development is what LA needs. Less cars implies less traffic. Make cities walkable. But, it is too late for that. Homeowners have decided carte blanche to oppose new development. This is the price they pay. LA will never return to being a city with one-tenth its current population, where every family gets a 6,000 square foot lot, a car and 2.1 kids. Plan for it. ------ ageitgey This is a well-researched traffic problem called induced demand [1] - building more roads in a congested city always makes traffic worse, not better, in the long term. Waze is giving people more roads to use, so they are in effect 'building more roads', which causes more total people to drive, which makes traffic even worse for everyone. There is no possible outcome here other than everything being worse for everyone involved, despite whatever libertarian views you might hold. Waze can only be a net loss for everyone for LA in the long term despite whatever benefits the early users got for a few years. But banning Waze is just a band-aid. The real problem is that the only way to get around LA is to drive. The real solution for LA is to re-think itself as a walkable about city with real public transit options. There isn't enough physical space for everyone in LA to get to where they want to go in a giant, personal automobile while still leaving room for dense housing. If you are interested in exactly how to redesign a city to make all transit more effective, check out the book 'Walkable City Rules' by Jeff Speck. [1] [https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2018/09/citylab- unive...](https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2018/09/citylab-university- induced-demand/569455/) ------ scarejunba Everyone wants to drive through other people's streets and wants no one to drive on theirs. Waze made it so this was evenly distributed. Of course the erstwhile privileged fear loss of privilege. ~~~ nullc This isn't a fair read on the situation, the tension isn't between my streets and your streets, it's between major arterials and light residential streets. In many cases the arterials don't have anyone directly on them (or only commercial/industrial property)... specifically as part of their intended purpose. In fact, if the situation isn't addressed in a fair and intentional manner a my vs your issue will be created: wealthier residents will erect gates, block traffic, privatize roads, or move to other locations ... and leave everyone else to contend with the mess on their own access roads, without the political air cover of wealthier people also suffering the same roadway misuse problem. ~~~ scarejunba They cannot privatize by California law unless there is no current or prospective public use. Existing roads will remain. They can build new roads and keep them private. So be it. This is a trade-off I am willing to accept. The navigation apps have no incentive to give you a worse experience by sending you down narrow roads. ------ RhodesianHunter Technology is created to solve a problem. Technology has unintended consequences. Technology owners have feduciary responsibility to continue producing technology. Negatively affected citizens make a fuss, claim they deserve more rights than other citizens. Media creates hit pieces, painting the most negative possible picture in an attempt to look like investigative journalism. Government either ignores the problem, or grossly overreaches, leading to further unintended consequences. ~~~ lidHanteyk Oh nice! This is Discordian 5-act structure. Chaos: Our protagonist, New Tech, arises. Discord: As a consequence, the first antagonist looms: Unintended Consequences. Confusion: New Tech is not dissuaded. It moves boldly, embracing what it sees as positive change in the world. Bureaucracy: Unintended Consequences summons the evil power of Somebody Else's Problem, and reveals their true face: Angry Mobs. The Aftermath: The Government steps in. They ban New Tech, establish a Committee to Study Somebody Else's Problem, set up a fund for Unintended Consequences, and violently suppress the Angry Mobs. Recall that, in Discordian 5-act, the protagonist is arbitrary, and usually chosen to maximize irony, bathos, or confusion. Our goal is to remind the audience of how silly it was to think of anything or anybody as morally absolved. ------ PaulHoule I grew up in Southern Hew Hampshire, one of the sprawliest places in the U.S. The architectural principle of Southern NH is that streets are not organized in a grid but rather in a hierarchy. They add more suburban "pods" at the leaf nodes with resulting uncontrollable traffic increases at upper levels. A street grid scales in an entirely different way in that if you build more grid you add both short- and long-range access at the same time. A town I live near added "traffic calming" measures, in some cases draconian. (e.g. When the cop catches you turning towards the supermarket when you shouldn't be you tell him that you're entirely confused by the streets in the area, you blow 0.0, and he says he is confused by it too.) As soon as traffic calming went into place, traffic got much worse on nearby arteries, particularly wait times at street lights. My current theory is that a good traffic route avoids stop lights like the plague. It's inevitable that you will hit stop lights, wasting your time and fuel. If you go to places where traffic concentrates, traffic will eventually outflow the ability of cars to clear the intersection during the green cycle. So a single traffic light causes you to be stuck for several cycles. If you think for yourself you realize that you can clear 10 stop sign intersections in the time that you can clear a bad pair of lights. I don't apologize for any of this behavior because I am making life better for people in the herd by getting out of it.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ask HN: Help in handling dangerous users who report fake data? - cryptoz We have a feature in PressureNet that lets users self-report the weather conditions. This will send a notification to all the nearby users telling them what that weather is like. This is pretty neat when you get a notification that says "Thunderstorm 2k East" and then a few minutes later you get a thunderstorm.<p>However, we have some users who are reporting Tornados, Wildfires and Floods in downtown Vancouver. This means that all our Vancouver users get notified of a Tornado nearby.<p>We're going to eventually build a reputation system so that these won't be trusted and notifications won't be delivered. But that's going to be a fair bit of work and we won't be ready to ship that for months.<p>In the mean time, we have a situation where lots of people are being notified of fake dangerous weather through our app - is this a legal problem for us? Or just a trust problem? What's the best mechanism to deal with this in the short-term?<p>I think a Confirm/Deny button on each weather condition would help (if 2+ people Deny then it goes away). But that still doesn't stop the initial notification from going out (and it clutters the UI).<p>Have you solved similar problems? Any ideas on how we can best deal with this? Thanks!<p>Here's the app: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=ca.cumulonimbus.barometernetwork ====== edoceo In a similar situation with user data. I wait for three user reports for the same thing in a limited time. Three reports from the same area in 10min = condition is real. Adjust as necessary	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ask HN: Why HN has no visible upvote number for comments? - mlejva ====== CarolineW You can track down the discussions from 6 years ago: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2435710](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2435710) Some significant discussion was here: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2434333](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2434333) And here: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2434975](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2434975) In short, it has been decided that removing the display of points against comments has reduced some undesirable behavior. The issues are complex, the arguments not entirely convincing, not everyone agrees, but the decision was taken that behavior and comment quality improved. ~~~ brudgers Anecdotally, it reduced the rewards I could receive for posting an early snarky comment on potential front page submissions. Not that I did not work hard enough crafting my snark to deserve upvotes.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Jury finds protester not guilty in chalk-vandalism case - scottshea http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-chalk-verdict-20130701,0,1617754.story ====== jessaustin _That the Bank of America contacted the city attorney 's office to reportedly urge prosecution has become part of the dispute._ Make that, they called and visited her office repeatedly over the course of many months to emphasize the _quid pro quo_ established by previous political donations. If any corner store had made a similar ruckus for a one-time chalk- on-sidewalk "incident", the store owner would have been cited for interfering with the duties of the City Attorney. I look forward to voting for Mayor Filner when he runs for higher office. I'm also glad the jury saw fit to correct the judge's egregious Constitutional error. ~~~ scottshea If I lived in San Diego I would be tempted to organize a chalk-in at BofA branches ------ quackerhacker I could not express my elation in words for this victory! I said it before when this trended on HN, that I hoped he would go to trial and not take a deal. I don't care if BOFA showed video of him doing it, he had chalk on his hands, and posted pictures up online on FB or Twitter...if I was on the jury, I would've said he wasn't guilty. Ridiculous lobbying of resources and obvious oppression by BOFA! ------ sirsar Good, we've acquitted the guy with children's chalk. Now can we please jail those responsible for the illegal foreclosures? ~~~ jayfuerstenberg It hasn't happened in the last 4 years and it won't in the next 4. The only way to bring justice to banks is to cause a run on them. Take your money out and put it in a small, local credit union. You'll be glad you did, if only for the level of service you'll receive. ~~~ cheald Another option is USAA. Unlike their insurance, you don't have to be a member of the military to use their banking services. They are an online-only bank and have magnificent customer service. I switched to them from Wells Fargo a few years back and can't recommend them enough. ~~~ charlieflowers I switched to USAA too. Overall I've been happy, but I must admit it's a pain in the butt to get money in there. The only easy way to get money there is direct deposit. If they'd fix that somehow, it would be fantastic. ~~~ cheald You can take a check to a UPS store[1]. If you're a customer of their car insurance, you can also deposit checks directly by taking a picture of them with your phone via their app[2] - I realize that's not accessible to many folks though. [1] [https://www.usaa.com/inet/pages/usaa_easy_deposits_main](https://www.usaa.com/inet/pages/usaa_easy_deposits_main) [2] [https://www.usaa.com/inet/pages/mobile_banking_dm?akredirect...](https://www.usaa.com/inet/pages/mobile_banking_dm?akredirect=true) ------ jack-r-abbit Where did this guy get a permanent chalk WMD? Wait... you're telling me this was chalk like my kids use on my driveway nearly every weekend? The same stuff that takes about 2 seconds to hose off? No shit he's not guilty of vandalism. SMH ------ noonespecial This is why when you are summoned for jury duty, _go_. ~~~ pezh0re Assuming your case is one that actually goes to trial as opposed to the tons that settle. ~~~ fnordfnordfnord More cases like this, and people may become brave enough to forgo extortive settlements. ------ kanja In all of the bad news about the system, this makes me feel pretty good ------ tlrobinson Was he actually facing jail time for this, or was the "13 years" line fed to the media by him/his defense? Jail time for writing in chalk is absurd, but surely he deserved some reasonable punishment for doing this _13 times_. A small fine and/or community service seems appropriate. ~~~ bobwaycott > _... surely he deserved some reasonable punishment for doing this 13 times._ Write the following, in chalk, 13 times in front of Bank of America: _I will not write in front of your premises in chalk._ ------ ryanac Wow... Embarrassing that this guy was ever charged in the first place. I thought it was some kind of joke when reading the title or that there was more to it, but nope, that pretty much sums it up, chalk. :\| ------ _delirium Here's some discussion of the legal issues, mostly based on _another_ recent chalk-vandalism prosecution: [http://www.volokh.com/2013/07/01/chalking-and- the-first-amen...](http://www.volokh.com/2013/07/01/chalking-and-the-first- amendment/) ------ quackerhacker Just for a reference, the old HN thread: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5948804](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5948804) ------ lightyrs Dismayed that this is news. This guy should have never been charged. Now we're surprised he wasn't convicted. SMH. ~~~ scottshea It should have been one of those news stories that are saved for the 'look at the absurdity' humor sections of the news. It does seem to illustrate the political fighting that has gripped the nation though. The Mayor and DA hold opposite views and drug this into the open. My tendency is to agree with the mayor; massive waste of money. On the other hand it does serve as a small legal precedent now so I guess there is some absolute value. Maybe. ------ javert The public should have zero tolerance for graffiti and vandalism of public property. This guy should have been fined and stuck in jail for 30 days. End of story. I heard they were trying to put him away for 13 years. That is gross abuse by the justice system. If I were on the jury, I would also declare him not guilty, even though he is. P.S. You do not have a first amendment right to write on public property. People who are too stupid to understand that, don't actually deserve first amendment rights (though I will still defend their rights, anyway). ~~~ ajross With chalk. He "wrote" on public property _with chalk_. Are you in favor of prosecuting people for "Lost Dog" signs stapled to telephone poles too? Good grief. Thankfully our courts have historically taken a rather broader view of the limits of political speech than you have. "Too stupid to deserve rights" indeed. That was just disgraceful, stop it. ~~~ ars Did he write on the sidewalk, or on the wall or entryway of the bank? ~~~ icebraining From the article: _" (...) on the sidewalk outside branches of the Bank of America."_ ------ stretchwithme Thank god. Reason prevails! ------ jmomo This seems to be a classic case of jury nullification. He was clearly guilty, but the jury refused to find him guilty. ------ coyotebush Beside the point, but "a 40-year-old man" "He was a civil rights activist in the 1960s" doesn't really add up. ~~~ jessaustin The former is the defendant. The latter is the mayor, who commented on the case. ~~~ coyotebush Oops, that's right. ------ alayne Jan Goldsmith needs a new job. ~~~ nknighthb What exactly is going on in San Diego's voting booths, anyway? A Republican city attorney on a crusade against chalk, and a far-left civil rights activist mayor? I'm reading through Filner's record, and the guy looks like a much older version of me. I'm left-wing enough that I think Berkeley would be scared of me, nevermind San Diego. ------ gfodor I respect the jury's decision but have a had time swallowing that anyone who wants to should be able to systematically slander a business in chalk 13 times and it not be considered some sort of crime. Poor precedent. Should have gotten a slap on the wrist. ~~~ jjoonathan IANAL, but AFAIK Slander involves communicating a falsehood. "BoA stole $10T of lunch money from children in Africa" would be slander (outside of the context of this post and the fact that it is a clearly ridiculous assertion). "No Thanks, Big Banks" (a representative example of what the guy actually wrote) is not slander. The charges were for vandalism, which arguably has a place in political discourse and arguably doesn't even deserve a slap on the wrist. ~~~ gfodor Fair enough on the slander point, but how does this not set a precedent for people to start spamming political messages all over sidewalks in front of Evil Corporation of The Month? The only real reasoning I could see is that perhaps just the fear of being sentence was deterrence enough. ~~~ nknighthb Personally, I'd be thrilled to have such a precedent. Seriously. It's a sidewalk. When not covered in chalk, it's just a boring surface. Protests, political slogans, landscapes, ponies, shrines to $deity of your choice, ads for the competing coffee shop on the next street, I'll take it all. ~~~ gfodor Lets break it down logically. I think most people would agree this guy should be found guilty if he had used spraypaint to deface sidewalks 13 times. Spraypaint, like chalk, is removable too, it just requires more effort and cost. Removing the chalk, according to BoA, cost a few thousand dollars. (Probably because they had to hire someone come with a power washer, and weren't going to ask their employees to do it.) I guess my question is, why is chalk different than spraypaint in the eyes of the law? Is it because the rain will wash it away, or because the relative cost to washing it away with a hose is low compared to more permanent media? What if there is no hose access to the sidewalk in an area where there is no rain for weeks at a time? Where is the line drawn? ~~~ jasonlotito Other people have discussed and refuted your various arguments. I want to tackle something else. You are dismissing elements of the case as if they aren't important. > Lets break it down logically. Logic dictates that you look at the case at hand, not at all the possible permutations. It's not as if you can say simply that killing someone is a crime and deserves X punishment, regardless of the details, and driving over the speed limit isn't an instant ticket if seen by a cop. So, then you ask: > why is chalk different than spraypaint in the eyes of the law? First, because they are different. They aren't the same. Not all cases of vandalism are the same, and they shouldn't be treated the same. We see what happens in cases like that when people use zero-tolerance as an excuse to come down hard on someone who was clearly not doing anything harmful. > What if there is no hose access to the sidewalk in an area where there is no > rain for weeks at a time? And what if it was raining at the time? The person drawing _while_ the rain immediately washed it away. One could argue then that the act of vandalism still occurred in both cases. One just happened to happen while it rained.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Short interactive Python puzzle. Did you solve it before the end? - thorax http://www.jorendorff.com/toys/puzzle.html ====== nsrivast I'd like to see a zero-knowledge protocol for a Dutch auction.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Apple's Revamped Mac Pro to Launch in 2019 - Tunecrew https://www.macrumors.com/2018/04/05/apples-revamped-mac-pro-to-launch-in-2019/ ====== Tunecrew I call shenanigans on Apple's BS process. The trash can Mac Pro was an absolute disaster which was obviously designed in a completely isolated silo with zero input from external users of the Mac Pro. Now Apple is taking two more years to "redesign" some more... If Apple brought back the old Mac Pro case w/ a new motherboard, TB, USB-C, etc. - that alone would fly off the shelf (and would have for the last few years). ~~~ joezydeco Some are already overhauling old Mac Pros and turning them into pretty powerful machines: [https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/8xkq8k/mac-pro- up...](https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/8xkq8k/mac-pro-upgrade- community) ~~~ Tunecrew that's cool! lack of thunderbolt is getting to be the problem though	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
ReMail (YC W09) Acquired by Google - Sam_Odio http://www.remail.com/blog/posts/157001 ====== axod I'm not sure shutting down a product and hiring the founder(s) should be classed as an 'acquisition'. It's just a recruitment with a golden hello really. These seem to be getting more and more common lately. ~~~ ccarpenterg I'm curious. 'a recruitment with a golden hello really' means that they had an offer of acquisition but with a 'you have to work for us' clause? ~~~ e1ven I believe axod's point is that an acquisition on this scale may simply amount to a signing bonus, rather than what investors might consider a substantial exit. Since he is shutting down the original project, and terms are not disclosed, it's entirely possible that he simply became tired of running it, applied for Google, interviewed and was hired. I'm not saying that I necessarily agree, but you had asked for clarification. ~~~ dschobel Do you think Google would fake an acquisition though? It's hard to imagine for a company of that stature and those means. ~~~ axod Six Apart 'acquired' Pownce [1]. Shut it down, then a year later and the 2 founders have left [2]. I'm always slightly skeptical ;) but these things just seem like a way to avoid having your baby in the dead pool to me. [1] [http://www.sixapart.com/blog/2008/12/welcome-pownce- team.htm...](http://www.sixapart.com/blog/2008/12/welcome-pownce-team.html) [2] [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp- dyn/content/article/2010/02...](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp- dyn/content/article/2010/02/12/AR2010021204437.html) ~~~ jmm The fact they both left shortly after a year would perhaps point to something a bit more substantial than a signing bonus. More like a retention bonus tied to the acquisition. That's what I thought when I read about LC's departure the other day anyway. ------ paulbaumgart Congratulations are definitely in order, but seeing as they're discontinuing their product, I can't help but be reminded of: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1117668> :-) ------ dschobel Congrats to the team but... How can you say: _"[Thanks to] Paul Buchheit and Sanjeev Singh [who] endured my slide deck on our multi-step plan for global email domination, and pointed out that instead I should build something small, simple, and useful. It worked."_ It worked so well that you kill the product? Or does "it worked" refer to the pay day + google job? ~~~ scott_s I assume the plan is to integrate his product into mobile Gmail. _His_ product will die, but all of those ideas will live on. ~~~ dschobel There's no mention of any future for the ideas, even vague NDA-friendly ones. That's the issue. ~~~ rjurney Why would Google make this acquisition if there was no value in the product, if they intended to do nothing similar, if they could make no use of the work done to date, of the outcome of the experiment, of the experience of the team? They wouldn't. Google just acquired the leading experts at monetizing search on the iPhone. Can't you see the value in that for Google from many angles? Everything Google does has to fit Google's scale - and that is at odds with architecting a product at a startup. So you rewrite it, you get the new DNA incorporated into existing product lines, and you move forward. ------ nostrademons Awesome. Congrats Gabor & company. Seems like Google is acquiring an awful lot of ex-employees lately, with Etherpad, Aardvark, and now ReMail. Makes sense given their hiring push and large cash supply, but it makes me wonder if the best way to fame and fortune is to do well at Google and then to leave Google... ~~~ zaidf _do well at Google and then to leave Google_ You forgot the whole middle part where you have to burn the midnight oil working on your startup, raising $, seeing uncertainty written all over your adventure. Yes, even if you are an ex-Googler. ~~~ nostrademons The type of engineers who "do well at Google" tend to do that anyway. The risk is a bit less, but the workload is just as high, and (depending upon your project) the uncertainty can be too. ------ davidedicillo Is Google trying hire back every engineer or intern who left it? ~~~ rjurney Yes. People go off, try new things, then get acquired and brought back into the mothership to incorporate their experiment. Its a very valid model of R&D. ~~~ gscott Worked out for Steve Jobs as well ~~~ grinich Agreed, but he's an outlier. ~~~ rjurney In terms of the Apple acquisition of NeXT, Steve Jobs is not an outlier. Founders leaving big companies, often in groups, to found starups that are later acquired by big companies - often one they previously worked for, is common. Its the most common pattern among successful startups. Its happened since day one of silicon valley, 110 years ago. This pattern is the basis of most of the wealth in the area. ------ coffee "Google and reMail have decided to discontinue reMail's iPhone application, and we have removed it from the App Store. reMail is an application on your phone. If you already have reMail, it will continue to work. We'll even provide support for you until the end of March" Good for them, congrats, but oy-vey! ------ bry Personally, I wouldn't move to work for a big company like Google after running a successful startup like this unless I had to as part of the deal. Not because Google is evil, but because you lose your independence. I wonder if that was part of the deal. ~~~ nostrademons Isn't that part of getting acquired? You typically don't get acquired by other startups (they don't have money), and you typically get far less of a payout if you don't work for the acquirer afterwards (they want the talent that built the software in addition to the software itself). ~~~ bry * forehead-slap * Of course, ignore my dumb comment :) ------ FlemishBeeCycle Everytime I hear about a startup being acquired by Google I think of <http://suicidefood.blogspot.com/>. As the ultimate goal of the startup seems to be, being devoured. ------ knightinblue Congrats! How much? ------ chr15 Will Google's "acquisition" strategy give current Google employees a greater incentive to leave the company and start their own? For example, some top engineers might have an idea for a product and will be incentivized to leave, knowing that Google will buy them as a talent acquisition. ------ yan > I will be joining Google in Mountain View as a Product Manager on the Gmail > team. > Gmail is where my obsession with email started as an engineering intern back > in 2004... That must feel great. ~~~ nandemo I guess it would feel even better to sell your startup after having been rejected by Google... ------ andrewhyde Congrats! ------ maxklein This is not an acquisition. It's the death of a product. And I called this one also: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=907456> My prediction accuracy on startup failure is pretty good, I think! ~~~ gruseom Maxklein, your comments consistently give me the impression that you live to belittle the achievements of others. Is that really the impression you intend to convey? You seem like a smart guy, but this stuff is painfully unpleasant to read. (You're not the only one, by any means. And yes, I would raise this concern in person.) As for Remail/Google: what firsthand knowledge about this transaction do you have? ~~~ zackattack Also, I don't understand why he emails companies asking for discounts on web apps when he's bringing in 20k/month in revenue. ~~~ maxklein To both questions: I am the Ebenezer Scrooge of hacker news. ------ howcool Great,thanks for killing a great iPhone app! ------ zackattack Congratulations, man.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }

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