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ููŠ ุชู„ูƒ ุงู„ู…ุฑุญู„ุฉ ูƒุงู† ู†ุธุงู… ู…ุตุฏุฑ ูˆูƒุงู† ู…ูุชูˆุญุงูŽ ูˆู„ูƒู† ู„ู… ูŠูƒู† ู‡ู†ุงูƒ ุฃูŠู‘ ู†ูŠุฉ ุŒ ู„ุฅุณุชุฎุฏุงู… ู…ุจุฏุฃ ุงู„ู†ุธุงู… ุงู„ู…ูุชูˆุญ ุงู„ู…ุณุชุฎุฏู… ุญุงู„ูŠุงูŽ ู„ุชุทูˆูŠุฑู‡ ุŒ
At that point it was source that was open, but there was no intention behind using the kind of open-source methodology that we think of today to improve it.
ู„ู‚ุฏ ุฌุฑู‰ ุงู„ู…ูˆุถูˆุน ุŒ " ุงู†ุธุฑูˆุง ู„ู‚ุฏ ุนู…ู„ุช ุนู„ู‰ ู‡ุฐุง ุงู„ู…ุดุฑูˆุน ู„ู…ุฏุฉ ู†ุตู ุณู†ุฉ ุŒ ุฃูˆุฏ ุณู…ุงุน ุชุนู„ูŠู‚ุงุชูƒู… ูˆ ุฃุฑุงุฆูƒู… ุนู„ูŠู‡ . "
It was more like, "Look, I've been working on this for half a year, I'd love to have comments."
ุจุนุถ ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ุฌุงุคุง ุฅู„ูŠ
And other people approached me.
ููŠ ุฌุงู…ุนุฉ ู‡ูŠู„ุณู†ูƒูŠ ุŒ ู„ุฏูŠ ุตุฏูŠู‚ ูƒุงู† ู…ู† ู…ู†ุชุณุจูŠ ู†ุธุงู… ุงู„ู…ุตุฏุฑ ุงู„ู…ูุชูˆุญ ูƒุงู† ูŠุทู„ู‚ ุนู„ูŠู‡ุง ุฃุณุงุณุงูŽ "ุงู„ุจุฑู…ุฌูŠุงุช ุงู„ุญุฑุฉ" ููŠ ุฐู„ูƒ ุงู„ูˆู‚ุช ุŒ ูˆู‚ุฏู… ู„ูŠ ููƒุฑุฉ ุฃู†ู‡ ุŒ ู…ู‡ู„ุงูŽ ุŒ ุฃู†ู‡ ุจุฅู…ูƒุงู†ูƒ ุฃุณุชุฎุฏุงู… ุฑุฎุต ู†ุธุงู… ุงู„ู…ุตุฏุฑ ุงู„ู…ูุชูˆุญ ุงู„ุชูŠ ุชู… ุชุฑุฎูŠุตู‡ุง
At the University of Helsinki, I had a friend who was one of the open source -- it was called mainly "free software" back then -- and he actually introduced me to the notion that, hey, you can use these open-source licenses that had been around.
ูˆ ููƒุฑุช ุจู‡ุฐุง ู„ูุชุฑุฉ ู…ู† ุงู„ูˆู‚ุช ุŒ
And I thought about it for a while.
ู„ู‚ุฏ ูƒู†ุช ู‚ู„ู‚ุงูŽ ุจุงู„ูุนู„ ุญูˆู„ ุงู„ู…ูƒุงุณุจ ุงู„ู…ุงุฏูŠุฉ.
I was actually worried about the whole commercial interests coming in.
ุฃุนู†ูŠ ุŒ ุฃู†ู‡ ูƒุงู† ุฃุญุฏ ุงู„ู…ุฎุงูˆู ุฃุนุชู‚ุฏ ู…ุนุธู… ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ุงู„ุฐูŠู† ูŠุทู„ู‚ูˆู† ุดูŠุฆุงูŽุŒ ุณูŠุจุฏูˆู† ู‚ู„ู‚ุงูŽ ุนู† ู…ู† ุณูŠุณุชููŠุฏ ู…ู† ุนู…ู„ู‡ู… ุฃู„ูŠุณ ูƒุฐู„ูƒ ุŸ
I mean, that's one of the worries I think most people who start out have, is that they worry about somebody taking advantage of their work, right?
ูˆ ู‚ุฑุฑุช ุŒ ู…ุง ู‡ุฐุง ..
And I decided, "What the hell?"
ูˆ .. ุฃู†ุฏุฑุณูˆู†: ููŠ ู…ุฑุญู„ุฉ ู…ุง ุŒ ุณุงู‡ู… ุดุฎุต ุจุจุนุถ ุงู„ุชุนู„ูŠู…ุงุช ุงู„ุจุฑู…ุฌูŠุฉ ุงู„ุชูŠ ุฅุนุชุจุฑุชู‡ุง ุŒ "ู…ุง ู‡ุฐุง ุฅู†ู‡ ู…ุฏู‡ุด ู„ู… ุฃูƒู† ู‚ุฏ ููƒุฑุช ููŠ ู‡ุฐุง!
And -- CA: And then at some point, someone contributed some code that you thought, "Wow, that really is interesting, I would not have thought of that.
ุฃู†ู‡ ุณูŠุทูˆุฑู‡ ุจุงู„ูุนู„ " .
This could actually improve this."
ู„ูŠู†ูˆุณ ุชูˆุฑูุงู„ุฏุณ: ู„ู… ุชุจุฏุฃ ุจุงู„ูุนู„ ุจู…ุณุงู‡ู…ุฉ ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ููŠ ุงู„ุจุฑุฌู…ุฉ ุŒ ู„ู‚ุฏ ูƒุงู†ุช ุฃูƒุซุฑ ุจู…ุณุงู‡ู…ุฉ ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ููŠ ุงู„ุฃููƒุงุฑ .
LT: It didn't even start by people contributing code, it was more that people started contributing ideas.
ูˆ ุญู‚ูŠู‚ุฉ ุฃู† ุดุฎุต ุขุฎุฑ ูŠู„ู‚ูŠ ู†ุธุฑุฉ ุนู„ู‰ ู…ุดุฑูˆุนูƒ ุฃู†ุง ู…ุชุฃูƒุฏ ุฃู†ู‡ุง ุญู‚ูŠู‚ุฉ ุตุญูŠุญุฉ ููŠ ุฃุดูŠุงุก ุฃุฎุฑู‰ ูƒุซูŠุฑุฉ ุŒ ู„ูƒู†ู‡ุง ุจุงู„ุทุจุน ุตุญูŠุญุฉ ููŠ ุงู„ุจุฑู…ุฌุฉ ุฃู†ู‡ ุงุฐุง ูƒุงู† ุดุฎุต ู…ู‡ุชู… ุจุนู…ู„ูƒ ุงู„ุจุฑู…ุฌูŠุŒ ูˆ ุฃู„ู‚ู‰ ู†ุธุฑุฉ ูƒุงููŠุฉ ุนู„ูŠู‡ ู„ูŠุนุทูŠูƒ ุฑุฃูŠู‡ ุงู„ุดุฎุตูŠ ููŠู‡ุง ูˆ ูŠุนุทูŠูƒ ุฃููƒุงุฑ ุฃูŠุถุงูŽ .
And just the fact that somebody else takes a look at your project -- and I'm sure it's true of other things, too, but it's definitely true in code -- is that somebody else takes an interest in your code, looks at it enough to actually give you feedback and give you ideas.
ู„ู‚ุฏ ูƒุงู† ุดูŠุฆุงูŽ ุนุธูŠู…ุงูŽ ู„ูŠ .
That was a huge thing for me.
ู„ู‚ุฏ ูƒุงู† ุนู…ุฑูŠ 21 ููŠ ุฐู„ูƒ ุงู„ูˆู‚ุช ุฃูŠ ุฃู†ู†ูŠ ูƒู†ุช ู„ุงุฒู„ุช ุดุงุจุงูŽ . . ูˆู„ูƒู†ู†ูŠ ูƒู†ุช ู‚ุฏ ุนู…ู„ุช ููŠ ุงู„ุจุฑู…ุฌุฉ ู†ุตู ุญูŠุงุชูŠ ุฃุณุงุณุงูŽ ุŒ
I was 21 at the time, so I was young, but I had already programmed for half my life, basically.
ูˆูƒู„ ู…ุดุฑูˆุน ู‚ุจู„ ุฐู„ูƒ ูƒุงู† ู…ุดุฑูˆุนุงูŽ ุดุฎุตูŠุงูŽ ูˆุญุตู„ ุงู„ูƒุดู ุนู†ู‡ุŒ ุนู†ุฏู…ุง ุจุฏุฃ ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ูŠุจุฏูˆู† ุขุฑุงุฆู‡ู… ุŒ ูˆ ุฑุฏูˆุฏ ุฃูุนุงู„ู‡ู… ุนู† ุนู…ู„ูƒ ุงู„ุจุฑู…ุฌูŠ .
And every project before that had been completely personal and it was a revelation when people just started commenting, started giving feedback on your code.
ูˆ ุญุชู‰ ู‚ุจู„ ุฃู† ูŠุจุฏุฃูˆุง ุฃุนุทุงุก ุฃุฑุงุฆู‡ู… ุŒ ู„ู‚ุฏ ูƒุงู†ุช ุฃุญุฏู‰ ุฃู‡ู… ู„ุญุธุงุชูŠ ุญูŠุซ ู‚ู„ุชุŒ " ุฃุญุจ ุงู„ู†ุงุณ "
And even before they started giving code back, that was, I think, one of the big moments where I said, "I love other people!"
ู„ุง ุชูู‡ู…ูˆู†ูŠ ุจุดูƒู„ ุฎุงุทุฆ ุฃู†ุง ุญู‚ุงูŽ ู„ุณุช ุงู„ุดุฎุต ุงู„ุฅุฌุชู…ุงุนูŠ ุŒ
Don't get me wrong -- I'm actually not a people person.
ุฃู†ุง ุญู‚ุงูŽ ู„ุง ุฃุญุจ ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ุŒ ู„ูƒู†ู†ูŠ ุฃุญุจ ุงู„ุญูˆุงุณูŠุจ ุฃุญุจ ุงู„ุชุนุงู…ู„ ู…ุน ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ู…ู† ุฎู„ุงู„ ุงู„ุจุฑูŠุฏ ุงู„ุฅู„ูƒุชุฑูˆู†ูŠ ุŒ ู„ุฃู†ู‡ ูŠุฌุนู„ูƒ ุจู…ุนุฒู„ ุนู† ุงู„ู†ุงุณ .
I don't really love other people -- But I love computers, I love interacting with other people on email, because it kind of gives you that buffer.
ู„ูƒู†ูŠ ุฃุญุจ ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ุงู„ุฐูŠู† ูŠุจุฏูˆู† ุฃุฑุงุฆู‡ู… ูˆูŠุณุงู‡ู…ูˆู† ููŠ ู…ุดุฑูˆุนูŠ .
But I do love other people who comment and get involved in my project.
ูˆูŠุฌุนู„ูˆู†ู‡ ุดูŠุฆุง ุนุธูŠู…ุงูŽ .
And it made it so much more.
ูƒุฑูŠุณ ุฃู†ุฏุฑุณูˆู† : ู„ู‚ุฏ ู…ุฑ ุนู„ูŠูƒ ู„ุญุธุฉ ูˆุฃู†ุช ุชุดุงู‡ุฏ ู…ุง ุชู… ุจู†ุงุคู‡ ูˆ ุซู… ูุฌุฃุฉ ุชู… ุฃุฎุฐู‡ ู…ู†ูƒ ุŒ ูˆ ุฃุฎุฐุช ุชููƒุฑ " ูŠุฌุจ ุฃู† ุงุชู…ู‡ู„ ุŒ ู…ุดุฑูˆุนูŠ ุณูŠุตุจุญ ู…ุดุฑูˆุนุงูŽ ุนุธูŠู…ุงูŽ ุŒ ูˆ ู„ูŠุณ ูู‚ุท ู…ุดุฑูˆุน ุดุฎุตูŠ ุŒ ุฃุญุตู„ ุนู„ู‰ ุฑุฏูˆุฏ ูˆ ุฃุฑุงุก ุงูŠุฌุงุจูŠุฉ ุนู†ู‡ ุŒ ูˆู„ูƒู† ู†ูˆุน ู…ู† ุงู„ุชุทูˆุฑ ุงู„ู‡ุงุฆู„ ููŠ ูƒู„ ุนุงู„ู… ุงู„ุชูƒู†ูˆู„ูˆุฌูŠุง ุŸ
CA: So was there a moment when you saw what was being built and it suddenly started taking off, and you thought, "Wait a sec, this actually could be something huge, not just a personal project that I'm getting nice feedback on, but a kind of explosive development in the whole technology world"?
ู„ูŠู†ูˆุณ ุชูˆุฑูุงู„ุฏุณ: ู„ูŠุณ ุชู…ุงู…ุงูŽ ุŒ
LT: Not really.
ู…ุง ุฃุนู†ูŠู‡ ุŒ ุงู„ุนู„ุงู…ุฉ ุงู„ูุงุฑู‚ุฉ ู„ูŠุŒ ู„ู… ุชูƒู† ุฃู†ู‡ ุฃุตุจุญ ุดูŠุฆุงูŽ ุนุธูŠู…ุงูŽ ุŒ ู„ู‚ุฏ ูƒุงู†ุช ู†ู‚ุทุฉ ูุงุฑู‚ุฉ ู„ูŠ ู…ู†ุฐ ูƒุงู† ู…ุดุฑูˆุนุงูŽ ุตุบูŠุฑุงูŽ .
I mean, the big point for me, really, was not when it was becoming huge, it was when it was becoming little.
ุงู„ูุงุฑู‚ ุงู„ูƒุจูŠุจุฑ ุจุงู„ู†ุณุจุฉ ู„ูŠ ู‡ูˆ ุฃู† ู„ุง ุฃูƒูˆู† ูˆุญูŠุฏุงูŽ ุญูŠุซ ุญุตู„ุช ุนู„ู‰ 10 ุฃูˆ ุฑุจู…ุง 100 ู…ุดุงุฑูƒูŠู† ููŠ ุงู„ู…ุดุฑูˆุน ู„ู‚ุฏ ูƒุงู† ุดูŠุฆุงูŽ ูุงุฑู‚ุงูŽ .
The big point for me was not being alone and having 10, maybe 100 people being involved -- that was a big point.
ุจุนุฏู‡ุง ูƒู„ ุดูŠุฆ ุตุงุฑ ูŠุฒุฏุงุฏ ุชุฏุฑูŠุฌูŠุงูŽ .
Then everything else was very gradual.
ู…ู† 100 ุดุฎุถ ุฅู„ู‰ ู…ู„ุงูŠูŠู† ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ู„ู… ูŠูƒู† ุดูŠุฆุงูŽ ุนุธูŠู…ุงูŽ .. ู„ูŠ .
Going from 100 people to a million people is not a big deal -- to me.
ุญุณู†ุงูŽ ุŒ ุฃุนู†ูŠ ุŒ ุฑุจู…ุง ุฃู†ู‡ ุฃุฐุง ูƒู†ุช ุฃุฐุง ุฃุฑุฏุช ุจูŠุน ุญุตูŠู„ุฉ ุนู…ู„ูƒ ู‡ุฐุง ู‡ูˆ ุงู„ูุงุฑู‚ ุงู„ุนุธูŠู… . ู„ุง ุชูู‡ู…ูˆู†ูŠ ุจุดูƒู„ ุฎุงุทุฆ
Well, I mean, maybe it is if you're -- If you want to sell your result then it's a huge deal -- don't get me wrong.
ู„ูƒู†ูƒ ุงุฐุง ูƒู†ุช ู…ู‡ุชู…ุงูŽ ุจุงู„ุชูƒู†ูˆู„ูˆุฌูŠุงุŒ ูˆ ุฃู‡ุชู…ู…ุช ุจู‡ุฐุง ุงู„ู…ุดุฑูˆุนุŒ ุงู„ุดูŠุฆ ุงู„ุนุธูŠู… ูƒุงู† ุฏุฎูˆู„ ุงู„ู…ุฌุชู…ุน .
But if you're interested in the technology and you're interested in the project, the big part was getting the community.
ุจุนุฏู‡ุง ุฃุฎุฐ ุงู„ู…ุฌุชู…ุน ูŠู†ู…ูˆ ุชุฏุฑูŠุฌูŠุงูŽ .
Then the community grew gradually.
ูˆู‡ู†ุงูƒ ููŠ ุงู„ูˆุงู‚ุน ู„ูŠุณุช ุนู„ุงู…ุฉ ูุงุฑู‚ุฉ ูˆุญูŠุฏุฉ ูู‚ุท ุญูŠุซ ุฃู†ู†ูŠ ุจุฏุฃุชุŒ "ู†ุฌุงุญ ุจุงู‡ุฑุŒ ุฃู†ุง ู„ู„ุชูˆ ุฃู‚ู„ุนุช ! " ู„ุฃู† ุฃุนู†ูŠ - ุฃู†ู‡ ุงุณุชุบุฑู‚ ูˆู‚ุชุง ุทูˆูŠู„ุง ู†ุณุจูŠุงูŽ .
And there's actually not a single point where I went like, "Wow, that just took off!" because it -- I mean -- it took a long time, relatively.
ุฃู†ุฏุฑุณูˆู†: ุงู„ุงุดุฎุงุต ููŠ ู…ุฌุงู„ ุงู„ุชูƒู†ูˆู„ูˆุฌูŠุง ุงู„ุฐูŠู† ุชุญุฏุซุช ู…ุนู‡ู… ูŠุฏูŠู†ูˆู† ู„ูƒ ุจุงู„ูƒุซูŠุฑ ู„ุชุบูŠูŠุฑ ุนู…ู„ู‡ู… ุนู„ู‰ ู†ุทุงู‚ ูˆุงุณุน .
CA: So all the technologists that I talk to really credit you with massively changing their work.
ูˆ ู„ูŠุณ ุจุณุจุจ ูู‚ุท ุŒ ุฅู†ู…ุง ุจุณุจุจ ุงู„ุดุฆ ุงู„ุฐูŠ ูŠุฏุนู‰"ุฌูŠุช"ุŒ ุงู„ุฐูŠ ู‡ูˆ ุงู„ู†ุธุงู… ุงู„ุฅุฏุงุฑูŠ ู„ุชุทูˆูŠุฑ ุงู„ุจุฑู…ุฌูŠุงุช.
And it's not just Linux, it's this thing called Git, which is this management system for software development.
ุฃุฎุจุฑู†ุง ุจุฅูŠุฌุงุฑ ุนู† ุฐู„ูƒ ูˆ ุฏูˆุฑูƒ ููŠู‡ .
Tell us briefly about that and your role in that.
ุชูˆุฑูุงู„ุฏุณ:ุฃุญุฏ ุงู„ู…ุดุงูƒู„ ุงู„ุชูŠ ูˆุงุฌู‡ุชู†ุง ุŒ ูˆุงู„ุชูŠ ุฃุฎุฐุช ูˆู‚ุช ุญุชู‰ ุธู‡ุฑุช ุŒ ุฃู†ู‡ ุนู†ุฏู…ุง
LT: So one of the issues we had, and this took a while to start to appear, is when you ...
ุนู†ุฏู…ุง ูŠู†ู…ูˆ ู…ุดุฑูˆุนูƒ ู…ู† ู…ุฑุญู„ุฉ ูˆุฌูˆุฏ 10 ุฃุดุฎุงุต ุฃูˆ 100 ุดุฎุต ูŠุนู…ู„ูˆู† ููŠู‡ ุงู„ู‰ ู…ุฑุญู„ุฉ ูˆุฌูˆุฏ 10ุŒ000 ุดุฎุต ุŒ ู…ุง ุฃุนู†ูŠู‡ ุŒ ุฃู†ู†ุง ุงู„ุขู† ููŠ ูˆุถุน ูˆุฌูˆุฏู†ุง ููŠ ุงู„ุฌูˆู‡ุฑ ุŒ ู„ุฏูŠู†ุง 1000 ุดุฎุต ู…ุณุงู‡ู…ูŠู† ููŠ ูƒู„ ุฅุตุฏุงุฑ ูˆู‡ุฐุง ูŠุชูƒุฑุฑ ูƒู„ ุดู‡ุฑูŠู†ุŒ ู…ุง ูŠู‚ุฑุจ ู…ู† ุดู‡ุฑูŠู† ุฃูˆ ุซู„ุงุซุฉ ุฃุดู‡ุฑ.
When you grow from having 10 people or 100 people working on a project to having 10,000 people, which -- I mean, right now we're in the situation where just on the kernel, we have 1,000 people involved in every single release and that's every two months, roughly two or three months.
ุจุนุถ ู‡ุคู„ุงุก ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ู„ู… ูŠุนู…ู„ ุงู„ูƒุซูŠุฑ .
Some of those people don't do a lot.
ู‡ู†ุงูƒ ุงู„ูƒุซูŠุฑ ู…ู† ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ุงู„ุฐูŠู† ู‚ุฏู…ูˆุง ุงู„ู‚ู„ูŠู„ ู…ู† ุงู„ุชุบูŠูŠุฑุงุช .
There's a lot of people who make small, small changes.
ูˆ ู„ูƒู† ู„ู„ุญูุงุธ ุนู„ู‰ ู‡ุฐู‡ ุŒ ุงู„ุชุบูŠูŠุฑุงุช ุงู„ูˆุงุณุนุฉ ูˆุงู„ุญูุงุธ ุนู„ูŠู‡ุง.
But to maintain this, the scale changes how you have to maintain it.
ูˆุงุฌู‡ู†ุง ุงู„ูƒุซูŠุฑ ู…ู† ุงู„ู…ุตุงุนุจ .
And we went through a lot of pain.
ูˆ ู‡ู†ุงูƒ ู…ุดุฑูˆุนุงุช ูƒุงู…ู„ุฉ ู„ุตูŠุงู†ุฉ ุงู„ุฑู…ุฒ ุงู„ู…ุตุฏุฑูŠ .
And there are whole projects that do only source-code maintenance.
ุณูŠ.ููŠ.ุฅุณ ู‡ูˆ ุฃุญุฏ ุฃูƒุซุฑ ู‡ุฐู‡ ุงู„ุจุฑุงู…ุฌ ุฅุณุชุฎุฏุงู…ุงูŽ ุŒ ูˆ ู„ู‚ุฏ ูƒุฑู‡ุช ุณูŠ.ููŠ.ุฅุณ ูƒุซูŠุฑุงูŽ ูˆ ุฑูุถุช ุฅุณุชุฎุฏุงู…ู‡ ูˆ ุฌุฑุจุช ุฃุดูŠุงุก ุฃุฎุฑู‰ ุงู„ุชูŠ ูƒุงู†ุช ุฃูƒุซุฑ ุฅู…ุชุงุนุงูŽ ูˆ ุงู„ุขุฎุฑูŠู† ูƒุฑู‡ูˆู‡ุง .
CVS is the one that used to be the most commonly used, and I hated CVS with a passion and refused to touch it and tried something else that was radical and interesting and everybody else hated.
ูƒุฑูŠุณ ุฃู†ุฏุฑุณูˆู† : ู„ูŠู†ูˆุณ ุชูˆุฑูุงู„ุฏุณ: ู„ู‚ุฏ ูƒู†ุง ููŠ ู…ูˆู‚ุน ุณูŠุก ุŒ ุญูŠุซ ู‡ู†ุงูƒ ุงู„ุขู„ุงู ู…ู† ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ุงู„ุฐูŠู† ูŠุฑูŠุฏูˆู† ุงู„ู…ุดุงุฑูƒุฉ ุŒ ูˆ ู„ูƒู† ุจุนุฏุฉ ุฃุดูƒุงู„ ุฃู†ุง ูƒู†ุช ููŠ ู…ูƒุงู† ุฃุฑูŠุฏ ุงู„ุชูˆู‚ู ุŒ ูˆู„ุง ูŠู…ูƒู†ู†ูŠ ุงู„ุชูˆุณุน ู„ุฏุฑุฌุฉ ุงู„ุนู…ู„ ู…ุน ุขู„ุงู ุงู„ู†ุงุณ .
CA: LT: And we were in this bad spot, where we had thousands of people who wanted to participate, but in many ways, I was the kind of break point, where I could not scale to the point where I could work with thousands of people.
ู„ุฐู„ูƒ ุฌูŠุช ู‡ูˆ ู…ุดุฑูˆุนูŠ ุงู„ุซุงู†ูŠ ุŒ ุงู„ุฐูŠ ุฃู†ุดุฃุชู‡ ู„ู„ู…ุญุงูุธุฉ ุนู„ู‰ ู…ุดุฑูˆุนูŠ ุงู„ุฃูˆู„.
So Git is my second big project, which was only created for me to maintain my first big project.
ูˆ ู‡ุฐุง ุญุฑููŠุงูŽ ูƒูŠู ูƒู†ุช ุฃุนู…ู„ .
And this is literally how I work.
ู„ู… ุฃุจุฑู…ุฌ ู„ ... ุญุณู†ุงูŽุŒ ุฃู†ุง ุจุฑู…ุฌุช ู„ู„ุชุณู„ูŠุฉ ู„ูƒู† ุฃุฑูŠุฏ ุฃู† ุฃุจุฑู…ุฌ ุดูŠุก ุฐุง ู…ุนู†ู‰ ู„ุฐู„ูƒ ูƒู„ ู…ุดุฑูˆุน ุฃุชู…ู…ุชู‡ ูƒุงู† ู„ุดูŠุก ุฃู†ุง ุฃุฑุฏุชู‡ ูˆ .... ูƒุฑูŠุณ ุฃู†ุฏุฑุณูˆู† : ูุนู„ูŠุงูŽ ูƒู„ุงูŽ ู…ู† ู„ูŠู†ูƒุณ ูˆ ุฌูŠุช ู…ู† ุงู„ู†ูˆุน ุงู„ุฐูŠ ู†ุดุฃ ุชู‚ุฑูŠุจุง ูƒู†ุชูŠุฌุฉ ุบูŠุฑ ู…ู‚ุตูˆุฏุฉ ู„ุฑุบุจุชูƒ ุฃู† ู„ุง ุชุนู…ู„ ู…ุน ุงู„ุนุฏูŠุฏ ู…ู† ุงู„ู†ุงุณ .
I don't code for -- well, I do code for fun -- but I want to code for something meaningful so every single project I've ever done has been something I needed and -- CA: So really, both Linux and Git kind of arose almost as an unintended consequence of your desire not to have to work with too many people.
ุชูˆุฑูุงู„ุฏุณ: ุจุงู„ุทุจุน ู†ุนู… .
LT: Absolutely. Yes.
ูƒุฑูŠุณ ุฃู†ุฏุฑุณูˆู† : ู‡ุฐุง ู…ุฐู‡ู„ . ู„ูŠู†ูˆุณ ุชูˆุฑูุงู„ุฏุณ: ู†ุนู… .
CA: That's amazing. LT: Yeah.
ูˆ ุฃูŠุถุงูŽ ุŒ ูƒู†ุช ุงู„ุฑุฌู„ ุงู„ุฐูŠ ุญูˆู„ ุงู„ุชูƒู†ูˆู„ูˆุฌูŠุง ู„ูŠุณ ูู‚ุท ู…ุฑุฉ ูˆุงุญุฏุฉ ุŒุจู„ ู…ุฑุชูŠู†ุŒ ูˆุนู„ูŠู†ุง ุฃู† ู†ุนู„ู… ู„ู…ุงุฐุง
And yet, you're the man who's transformed technology not just once but twice, and we have to try and understand why it is.
ูˆ ู…ุง ุฒู„ุช ุชุนุทูŠู†ุง ุจุนุถ ุงู„ู‚ุฑุงุฆู†ุŒ ูˆู„ูƒู†
You've given us some clues, but ...
ู‡ุฐู‡ ุตูˆุฑุฉ ู„ูƒ ูƒุทูู„ ูˆ ู…ุนูƒ ู…ูƒุนุจ ุฑูˆุจูŠูƒ
Here's a picture of you as a kid, with a Rubik's Cube.
ู„ู‚ุฏ ุฃุฑุฏูุช ุฃู†ูƒ ุชุจุฑู…ุฌ ู…ู†ุฐ ูƒุงู† ุนู…ุฑูƒ 10 ุฃูˆ 11ุŒ ู†ุตู ุญูŠุงุชูƒ.
You mentioned that you've been programming since you were like 10 or 11, half your life.
ู‡ู„ ูƒู†ุช ุฃุญุฏ ุนุจุงู‚ุฑุฉ ุงู„ุญุงุณูˆุจ, ู…ู‡ูˆูˆุณุงูŽ ุจุงู„ุชุนู„ู…ุŒ ู‡ู„ ูƒู†ุช ุงู„ุฃูุถู„ ููŠ ุงู„ู…ุฏุฑุณุฉ ุงู„ู‚ุงุฏุฑุนู„ู‰ ุฃู† ูŠูุนู„ ูƒู„ ุดูŠุก ุŸ
Were you this sort of computer genius, you know, รผbernerd, were you the star at school who could do everything?
ูƒูŠู ูƒู†ุช ูƒุทูู„ ุŸ
What were you like as a kid?
ู„ูŠู†ูˆุณ ุชูˆุฑูุงู„ุฏุณ:ุฃุนุชู‚ุฏ ุฃู†ูŠ ูƒู†ุช ู…ู† ู†ู…ุท ุงู„ุทุงู„ุจ ุงู„ุฐูŠ ูŠุฐุงูƒุฑ .
LT: Yeah, I think I was the prototypical nerd.
ุฃุนู†ูŠ ุŒ ุฃู†ูŠ ูƒู†ุช ...
I mean, I was ...
ู„ู… ุฃูƒู† ุงู„ุดุฎุต ุงู„ุฅุฌุชู…ุงุนูŠ ุฃู†ุฐุงูƒ .
I was not a people person back then.
ู‡ุฐุง ุฃุฎูŠ ุงู„ุตุบูŠุฑ.
That's my younger brother.
ู„ู‚ุฏ ูƒู†ุช ุฃูƒุซุฑ ุงุณุชู…ุชุงุนุงูŽ ููŠ ู…ูƒุนุจ ุฑูˆุจูŠูƒ ุฃูƒุซุฑ ู…ู† ุฃุฎูŠ .
I was clearly more interested in the Rubik's Cube than my younger brother.
ุฃุฎุชูŠ ุงู„ุตุบูŠุฑุฉ ูˆ ุงู„ุชูŠ ู„ุง ุชุธู‡ุฑ ููŠ ู‡ุฐู‡ ุงู„ุตูˆุฑุฉ ุนู†ุฏู…ุง ูƒู†ุง ู†ุฌุชู…ุน ุงุฌุชู…ุงุนุงุช ุนุงุฆู„ูŠุฉ ุŒ ูˆู„ู… ุชูƒู† ุนุงุฆู„ุชู†ุง ุจุงู„ุนุงุฆู„ุฉ ุงู„ูƒุจูŠุฑุฉ ุŒ ูˆ ู„ูƒู† ูƒุงู† ู„ุฏูŠ ุฃุซู†ูŠู† ู…ู† ุฃูˆู„ุงุฏ ุนู…ูˆู…ุชูŠุŒ ู„ู‚ุฏ ูƒุงู†ุช ุชุญุถุฑู†ูŠ ู…ุณุจู‚ุงูŽ .
My younger sister, who's not in the picture, when we had family meetings -- and it's not a huge family, but I have, like, a couple of cousins -- she would prep me beforehand.
ู‚ุจู„ ุฃู† ุฃุฏุฎู„ ุงู„ุบุฑูุฉ ูƒุงู†ุช ุชู‚ูˆู„ ุŒ " ู†ุนู… . ูˆ ู‡ุฐุง ูƒุฐู„ูƒ .. "
Like, before I stepped into the room she would say, "OK. That's so-and-so ..."
ู„ุฃู†ู†ูŠ ู„ู… ุฃูƒู† ... ูƒู†ุช ู…ู‡ูˆูˆุณุงูŽ .
Because I was not -- I was a geek.
ู…ู‡ูˆูˆุณุงูŽ ุจุงู„ุญูˆุงุณูŠุจ ุŒ ู…ู‡ูˆูˆุณุงูŽ ุจุงู„ุฑูŠุงุถูŠุงุช ุŒ ู…ู‡ูˆูˆุณุงูŽ ุจุงู„ููŠุฒูŠุงุก .
I was into computers, I was into math, I was into physics.
ู„ู‚ุฏ ูƒู†ุช ุฌูŠุฏุงูŽ ููŠ ุฐู„ูƒ .
I was good at that.
ุฃู†ุง ู„ุง ุฃุนุชู‚ุฏ ุฃู†ู†ูŠ ูƒู†ุช ุงุณุชุซู†ุงุฆูŠ ุจู…ุฌุงู„ ู…ุนูŠู† .
I don't think I was particularly exceptional.
ุจูˆุถูˆุญ ุŒ ู‚ุงู„ุช ุฃุฎุชูŠ ุฃู† ุฃูƒุซุฑ ู…ูŠุฒุฉ ุฅุณุชุซู†ุงุฆูŠุฉ ุฃู…ุชู„ูƒู‡ุง ุฃู†ู†ูŠ ู„ุง ุฃุณุชุณู„ู… .
Apparently, my sister said that my biggest exceptional quality was that I would not let go.
ุฃู†ุฏุฑุณูˆู† : ู†ุนู… ุฏุนู†ุง ู†ุชุญุฏุซ ุนู† ู‡ุฐุง ุฃู†ู‡ ู…ุซูŠุฑ ู„ู„ุฅู‡ุชู…ุงู… .
CA: OK, so let's go there, because that's interesting.
ุฃู†ูƒ ู„ุง ุชุณุชุณู„ู… .
You would not let go.
ุฃูŠ ุฃู†ู‡ ู„ุง ูŠุชุนู„ู‚ ุจูƒูˆู†ูƒ ู…ู‡ูˆูˆุณ ุฃูˆ ุฐูƒูŠุŒ ุฃู†ู‡ ูŠุชุนู„ู‚ ุจูƒูˆู†ูƒ ุนู†ูŠุฏ ุŸ
So that's not about being a geek and being smart, that's about being ... stubborn?
ุชูˆุฑูุงู„ุฏุณ: ุฃู†ู‡ุง ุชุชุนู„ู‚ ุจูƒูˆู†ูŠ ุนู†ูŠุฏ .
LT: That's about being stubborn.
ู‡ุฐุง ุดูŠุกุŒ ู…ุซู„ุŒ ุฃู† ุชุจุฏุฃ ุจุดูŠุก ูˆ ุฃู† ู„ุง ุชู‚ูˆู„ " ู†ุนู… ุฃู†ุง ุฃุชู…ู…ุชู‡ ุŒ .. ุณุฃุจุฏุฃ ุจุฅุชู…ุงู… ุฃู…ุฑ ุขุฎุฑ ูŠุจุฏูˆ ุฑุงุฆุนุงูŽ "
That's about, like, just starting something and not saying, "OK, I'm done, let's do something else -- Look: shiny!"
ู„ู‚ุฏ ู„ุงุญุธุช ู†ูุณ ุงู„ุดูŠุก ุจุฃุฌุฒุงุก ูƒุซูŠุฑุฉ ู…ู† ุญูŠุงุชูŠ ุŒุงูŠุถุงูŽ.
And I notice that in many other parts in my life, too.
ู„ู‚ุฏ ุนุดุช ููŠ ูˆุงุฏูŠ ุงู„ุณูŠู„ูŠูƒูˆู† ู„ุณุจุน ุณู†ูˆุงุช.
I lived in Silicon Valley for seven years.
ูˆ ุนู…ู„ุช ู„ู†ูุณ ุงู„ุดุฑูƒุฉ ุŒ ููŠ ูˆุงุฏูŠ ุงู„ุณูŠู„ูŠูƒูˆู† ุŒ ูƒู„ ุงู„ูˆู‚ุช .
And I worked for the same company, in Silicon Valley, for the whole time.
ูˆู‡ุฐุง ุดูŠุก ุฅุณุชุซู†ุงุฆูŠ .
That is unheard of.
ูˆู‡ุฐุง ู„ูŠุณ ูƒู…ุง ุชุฌุฑูŠ ุงู„ุฃู…ูˆุฑ ุนุงุฏุฉ ููŠ ูˆุงุฏูŠ ุงู„ุณูŠู„ูŠูƒูˆู†.
That's not how Silicon Valley works.
ุงู„ู…ุชุนุงุฑู ุนู„ูŠู‡ ููŠ ูˆุงุฏูŠ ุงู„ุณูŠู„ูŠูƒูˆู† ุฃู† ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ูŠุชู†ู‚ู„ูˆู† ุจูŠู† ุนุฏุฉ ุฃุนู…ุงู„ ู…ุซู„ ุฎู„ุท ุณุงุฆู„ ููŠ ูˆุนุงุก .
The whole point of Silicon Valley is that people jump between jobs to kind of mix up the pot.
ูˆู‡ุฐุง ู„ูŠุณ ู…ู† ุดุฎุตูŠุชูŠ .
And that's not the kind of person I am.
ูƒุฑูŠุณ ุฃู†ุฏุฑุณูˆู†: ู„ูƒู† ุฎู„ุงู„ ูุชุฑุฉ ุชุทูˆูŠุฑ ู„ูŠู†ูƒุณุŒ ุฐุงูƒ ุงู„ุนู†ุงุฏ ุฌุนู„ูƒ ุฃุญูŠุงู†ุงูŽ ููŠ ุตุฑุงุน ู…ุน ุจุงู‚ูŠ ุงู„ู†ุงุณ .
CA: But during the actual development of Linux itself, that stubbornness sometimes brought you in conflict with other people.
ุชุญุฏุซ ุนู† ุฐู„ูƒ ู‚ู„ูŠู„ุงูŽ .
Talk about that a bit.
ู‡ู„ ูƒุงู† ุถุฑูˆุฑูŠุงูŽ ู„ู„ุญูุงุธ ุนู„ู‰ ู…ุง ูŠุชู… ุจู†ุงุคู‡ ุŸ
Was that essential to sort of maintain the quality of what was being built?
ูƒูŠู ุชูˆุตู ู„ู†ุง ู…ุง ุญุฏุซ ุŸ
How would you describe what happened?
ู„ูŠู†ูˆุณ ุชูˆุฑูุงู„ุฏุณ : ุฃู†ุง ู„ุง ุงุนู„ู… ููŠู…ุง ุฅุฐุง ูƒุงู† ุถุฑูˆุฑูŠุงูŽ .
LT: I don't know if it's essential.
ุฃุนูˆุฏ ู…ุฑุฉ ุฃุฎุฑู‰ ุฅู„ู‰ ูƒูˆู†ูŠ " ู„ุณุช ุดุฎุตุงูŽ ุฅุฌุชู…ุงุนูŠุงูŽ " ุฃุญูŠุงู†ุงูŽ ุฃู†ุง ุฃูŠุถุงูŽ
Going back to the "I'm not a people person," -- sometimes I'm also ...
ู‡ู„ ุจุฅู…ูƒุงู†ู†ุง ุงู„ู‚ูˆู„ ุŒ " ู‚ุตูŠุฑ ุงู„ู†ุธุฑ " ุนู†ุฏู…ุง ูŠุชุนู„ู‚ ุงู„ู…ูˆุถูˆุน ุจู…ุดุงุนุฑ ุจุงู‚ูŠ ุงู„ู†ุงุณุŒ ูˆ ู‡ูˆ ุงู„ุดูŠุก ุงู„ุฐูŠ ูŠุฌุนู„ู†ูŠ ุฃู‚ูˆู„ ุฃุดูŠุงุก ุชุฒุนุฌ ูˆุชุคู„ู… ุจุงู‚ูŠ ุงู„ู†ุงุณ.
shall we say, "myopic" when it comes to other people's feelings, and that sometimes makes you say things that hurt other people.
ูˆ ุฃู†ุง ู„ุณุช ูุฎูˆุฑุงูŽ ุจุฐู„ูƒ .
And I'm not proud of that.
ู„ูƒู† ุŒ ููŠ ุงู„ูˆู‚ุช ู†ูุณู‡ ูˆุงุฌู‡ุช ุจุนุถ ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ู‚ุงู„ูˆุง ู„ูŠ ูŠุฌุจ ุฃู† ุฃูƒูˆู† ู„ุทูŠูุงูŽ .
But, at the same time, it's -- I get people who tell me that I should be nice.
ุซู… ุนู†ุฏู…ุง ุฃุญุงูˆู„ ุฃู† ุฃุดุฑุญ ู„ู‡ู… ุฃู†ู‡ ุฑุจู…ุง ู‡ู… ู„ุทูŠููŠู† ุŒ ูˆ ู„ูƒู† ุฑุจู…ุง ูŠุญุจ ุฃู† ูŠูƒูˆู†ูˆุง ุฃูƒุซุฑ ุนุฏูˆุงู†ูŠุฉ. ูŠุนุชุจุฑูˆู† ุฐู„ูƒ ู…ู† ูƒูˆู†ูŠ ู„ุณุช ู„ุทูŠูุงูŽ .
And then when I try to explain to them that maybe you're nice, maybe you should be more aggressive, they see that as me being not nice.
ูˆ ุนู†ุฏู…ุง ุฃุญุงูˆู„ ุฃู† ุฃู‚ูˆู„ ุฃู†ู†ุง ู…ุฎุชู„ููˆู†.
What I'm trying to say is we are different.
ู„ุณุช ุจุงู„ุดุฎุต ุงู„ุฅุฌุชู…ุงุนูŠุŒ ุฅู†ู‡ ู„ูŠุณ ุจุงู„ุดูŠุก ุงู„ุฐูŠ ุฃูุฎุฑ ุจู‡ ุจุดูƒู„ ุฎุงุตุŒ ูˆ ู„ูƒู†ู‡ ุฌุฒุก ู…ู† ุดุฎุตูŠุชูŠ .
I'm not a people person; it's not something I'm particularly proud of, but it's part of me.
ูˆ ุฃู† ุฃุญุฏ ุงู„ุฃุดูŠุงุก ุงู„ุชูŠ ุฃุนุฌุจุชู†ูŠ ุจู…ุจุฏุฃ ุงู„ู…ุตุฏุฑ ุงู„ู…ูุชูˆุญ ุฃู† ูŠุนุทูŠ ุงู„ู…ุฌุงู„ ู„ู†ุงุณ ู…ุฎุชู„ููŠู† ุจุงู„ุนู…ู„ ู…ุน ุจุนุถ.
And one of the things I really like about open source is it really allows different people to work together.
ู„ูŠุณ ุดุฑุทุงูŽ ุฃู† ู†ุนุฌุจ ุจุนุถู†ุง ุงู„ุจุนุถ ูˆ ุฃุญูŠุงู†ุงูŽ ุญุชู‰ ู„ุง ู†ุนุฌุจ ุจุนุถู†ุง ุงู„ุจุนุถ .
We don't have to like each other -- and sometimes we really don't like each other.
ุญู‚ุงูŽ .. ุฃุนู†ูŠ ุŒ ู‡ู†ุงูƒ ุงู„ุนุฏูŠุฏ ู…ู† ุงู„ู†ู‚ุงุดุงุช ุงู„ุญุงุฏุฉ .
Really -- I mean, there are very, very heated arguments.
ู„ูƒู† ููŠ ุงู„ูˆุงู‚ุน ุŒ ูŠู…ูƒู†ูƒ ุŒ ุฅูŠุฌุงุฏ ุงู„ุฃุดูŠุงุก ุงู„ุชูŠ ู„ุง ูŠุชูˆุฌุจ ุงู„ุฅุชูุงู‚ ุฃูˆ ุงู„ุฅุฎุชู„ุงู ุนู„ูŠู‡ุง ุŒ ุฃู†ู‡ ูŠุชุนู„ู‚ ุจุฃู†ูƒ ุชู‡ุชู… ุจุฃู…ูˆุฑ ู…ุฎุชู„ูุฉ .
But you can, actually, you can find things that -- you don't even agree to disagree, it's just that you're interested in really different things.
ูˆ ุจุงู„ุนูˆุฏุฉ ู„ู„ู†ู‚ุทุฉ ุงู„ุชูŠ ู‚ู„ุชู‡ุง ููŠ ูˆู‚ุช ุณุงุจู‚ ุฃู†ู†ูŠ ูƒู†ุช ุฎุงุฆูุงูŽ ู…ู† ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ุงู„ู…ุงุฏูŠูˆู† ุฃู† ูŠุณุชููŠุฏูˆุง ู…ู† ุนู…ู„ูƒ ุŒ ุฃุชุถุญ ุงู†ู‡ ุŒ ูˆ ุจุณุฑุนุฉ ุฃุชุถุญ ุฃู†ู‡ ุŒ ุฃู† ู‡ุคู„ุงุก ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ุงู„ู…ุงุฏูŠูˆู† ูƒุงู†ูˆุง ู†ุงุณ ู…ุญุจูˆุจูŠู† ุฌุฏุงูŽ .
And coming back to the point where I said earlier that I was afraid of commercial people taking advantage of your work, it turned out, and very quickly turned out, that those commercial people were lovely, lovely people.
ูˆ ู‚ุงู…ูˆุง ุจูƒู„ ุงู„ุฃุดูŠุงุก ุงู„ุชูŠ ู„ู… ุฃูƒู† ู…ู‡ุชู…ุงูŽ ุจุงู„ู‚ูŠุงู… ุจู‡ุงุŒ ูˆ ู„ูƒู† ูƒุงู†ูˆุง ูŠู…ู„ูƒูˆู† ุฃู‡ุฏุงูุงูŽ ู…ุฎุชู„ูุฉ ุชู…ุงู…ุงูŽ.
And they did all the things that I was not at all interested in doing, and they had completely different goals.
ูˆ ุงุณุชุฎุฏู…ูˆุง ุงู„ู…ุตุฏุฑ ุงุงู„ู…ูุชูˆุญ ููŠ ุทุฑู‚ ู„ู… ุฃูƒู† ุฃุฑูŠุฏู‡ุง .
And they used open source in ways that I just did not want to go.
ูˆ ู„ูƒู†ู‡ ูƒุงู† ู…ุตุฏุฑ ู…ูุชูˆุญ ุชู…ูƒู†ูˆุง ู…ู† ูุนู„ ุฐู„ูƒ ุŒ ูˆ ุนู…ู„ ู…ุนู‡ู… ุจุดูƒู„ ุฌู…ูŠู„ .
But because it was open source they could do it, and it actually works really beautifully together.
ูˆ ููŠ ุงู„ูˆุงู‚ุน ุฃุนุชู‚ุฏ ุฃู†ู‡ ุชุชู… ุจู†ูุณ ุงู„ุทุฑูŠู‚ุฉ .
And I actually think it works the same way.
ุฃู†ุช ุจุญุงุฌุฉ ู„ูˆุฌูˆุฏ ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ุŒ ูˆ ุชูˆุงุตู„ ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ู…ุน ุจุนุถู‡ุง ุŒ ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ุงู„ุฏุงูุฆูŠู† ูˆ ุงู„ูˆุฏูˆุฏูŠู† ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ุงู„ุฐูŠู† .. ุงู„ุฐูŠู† ูŠุฑูŠุฏูˆู† ูุนู„ุงูŽ ุงู† ูŠุนุงู†ู‚ูˆูƒ ูˆ ูŠุฏุฎู„ูˆูƒ ู„ู„ู…ุฌุชู…ุน .
You need to have the people-people, the communicators, the warm and friendly people who like -- really want to hug you and get you into the community.
ูˆู„ูƒู† ู‡ุฐุง ู„ุง ูŠู†ุทุจู‚ ุนู„ู‰ ูƒู„ ุงู„ู†ุงุณ .
But that's not everybody.