The Ultimate Bruce Lee Site
A Possible Cause of the Death of Bruce Lee
Bruce Lee Essay: My View on Gung Fu
Bruce Lee Research Paper (Quite Brilliant!)
Bruce Lee Story by Timeline
Bruce Lee Vision Concerning his Own life and Hoped for Achievements
Bruce Lee Battle with Wong Jack Man!
Bruce Lee Fighting Jackie Chan ~ Who Would Win?
Bruce Lee Fights Over the Span of his Life
Bruce Lee Fights with Michael Jackson?
Bruce Lee Kung Fu Method for Handling Classical Karate
Five Ways of Attack Developed by Bruce Lee for Jeet Kune Do
Jeet Kune Do Fighting Concepts of Bruce Lee
Learn Jeet Kune Do on Your Own!
New Book on Bruce Lee!
One Inch Punch of Bruce Lee Secret Revealed!
The Difference Between Wing Chun and Karate
Bruce Lee Film Competition: Is Jet or Jackie a Better Martial Artist?
Bruce Lee Movie ‘Enter the Dragon’
Way of the Dragon…Return of the Dragon
Bruce Lee Hard is What You Think You Are?
Bruce Lee Training Lessons for a Perfect Body!
Bruce Lee Training Routine That is Incredible! (Part One)
Bruce Lee Workout Increases Strength and Power
Bruce Lee Workouts his Amazing Strength (Part Two)
Bruce Lee Battle that He Lost!
The Bruce Lee Battle with Wong Jack Man has become the stuff of legends, it was a wildly famous battle. There are different opinions as to who won, and people can’t even agree on how many people were there, or who they were.
The Bruce Lee Battle with Wong Jack Man happened in 1964. It supposedly happened because Bruce was teaching Kung Fu to white people. A challenge was issued by the Chinese martial arts community, which probably meant Wong Jack Man by himself, or with the backing of a few friends.
Was the Bruce Lee fighting method developed because of the Wong Jack Man fight?
Ed Parker as a brown belt, James Mitose killed by student, and more…
There is controversy in the challenge itself, as Wong Jack Man was one of the first Kung Fu instructors in San Francisco to open his doors to white students.
So the two men met in a Kung fu school in Oakland in late winter of 1964. On one hand was Wong Jack Man, 5’ 10”, 135 pounds, an expert in Shaolin styles, and having experience in internal kung fu styles. On the other hand was Bruce Lee, 5’ 7”, 140 pounds, an expert in Wing Chun (Ving Tsun) Kung Fu as taught by the legendary Yip Man.
As the two men eyed each other, Bruce Lee made an interesting remark concerning a friend of Wong Jack Man’s who had helped to set up the affair. “You’ve been killed by your friend.”
Wong Jack Man remained silent, but undoubtedly he was thinking over the remark. After all, Bruce Lee Battles had taken place in Hong Kong, ‘roof top’ contests when he was a member of the street gang ‘Tigers of Junction Street.’ These were particularly vicious fights, and Bruce Lee had fought in these so called ‘death matches.’
Bruce Lee’s remark in his mind, the people in the school stepped back and cleared a space for the combatants. On Lee’s side of the room stood wife Linda Lee, and James Yimm Lee. On the other side of the room stood three people, one of which was named William Chen (not the William Chen who teaches Tai Chi Chuan in New York). This is an oddity as Linda Lee recalls 13 people being present, and Chen recalls 15 people being in attendance. The fact that there is so little recall on this simple fact bodes ill for recall on the Bruce Lee Battle itself.
The floor cleared, the two men bowed, and Wong Jack Man moved forward and extended his hand for the pre-fight handshake. Bruce leaped forward with a quick spear hand to the eyes.
Wong was surprised, but quickly settled into his classical Kung Fu mode of fighting. Bruce, for his part, assumed a Wing chun stance. Still, though the men were in stances, Bruce was the more aggressive. He continually rushed in, kicking to the groin or striking to the eyes.
Wong, remembering Bruce’s remark at the beginning of the fight, backpedaled. He was constantly blocking and parrying and trying to get away from the dangerous eye pokes.
For long minutes the fight continued, Bruce unable to finish it, and Wong unable to move off the defensive. At last, the fight ended.
Linda Lee claimed Wong was running, that the fight was turning into a farce.
Wong’s men are said to have tried to stop the fight, but were forestalled by James Lee, who told them to let the fight continue.
Bruce is supposed to have taken him to the floor where he pounded his head with his fist. This is not born out by other witnesses.
Wong states that he had Bruce‘s head under his arm on three separate occasions.
Linda Lee says the fight lasted three minutes. Other witnesses says it went for 20 minutes.
Wong’s people claim the fight never went to the ground, but ended when both men were exhausted and unable to continue.
Do you see the difficulty here? So few eyewitnesses, and yet there is wildly varying accounts from the two camps.
So, what is the truth.
While this may not make please the reader, this writer thinks that this particular Bruce Lee battle went to Wong Jack Man. There are several reasons for this.
First, Linda Lee makes contradictory statements concerning the fight. This indicates a problem with memory.
Second, there was a lot more agreement that the fight actually lasted 20 minutes.
Third, Wong Jack Man went to work the following day, and the only mark that he had been in a death match was a scratch under the eye, which he said he received in the opening spear hand from Bruce.
Fourth, it was Bruce who wanted the fight kept a secret, but it was Bruce who broke this agreement by talking about the fight within a couple of weeks in an interview. Why would he want it a secret, yet be compelled to blurt it out? There is a conflict here. Not sure what it was, how deep it went, but it is Bruce Lee who was conflicted, not Wong Jack Man, who has rarely spoken of the fight, nor of Bruce Lee.
Fifth, and this is the one that really speaks to me: Bruce changed his fighting style after the fight. After the fight he left the Wing Chun kung fu style and developed his Jeet Kune Do method. So why would a man change what works? Only if it didn’t work. The truth is this, people learn from their mistakes, and that education will cause change. If Bruce had won it wouldn’t have been a mistake, and there wouldn’t have been an impetus to change.
That said, I know people will disagree with this, and I am truly curious as to their thoughts concerning this fight and to my reasoning. Feel free to comment below.
At any rate, the Bruce Lee Battle of the century doesn’t look like it was a win for Bruce. In fact, it looks like Bruce Lee lost. At best, it might have been a draw, but that might be a good thing. After all, it gave the world the Jeet Kune Do of Bruce Lee, and that means the entire world of the martial arts has won.
This article has been about the Bruce Lee battle with Wong Jack Man.
If you want to know about the man who killed Kenpo Karate…click here.
324 Responses to Bruce Lee Battle with Wong Jack Man!
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Articles of martial arts are meant to be written without bias, if you just gave the details it would have been a good read, but instead you supplement Man’s actions and decisions and tried to lead the reader into thinking that Lee’s change in combat styles and death could possibly be due to his fight with Man. I wasn’t there, but neither where you – so the facts would have been much better; such as how besides Linda’s – there were few accounts of a three minute battle while a majority of eye witnesses agreed that the bout lasted more than twenty minutes.
Overall, it was an interesting read about a pivotal point in martial arts from a different perspective.
aganzul says:
I used to write articles without bias when I was writing for the magazines, but it is fun to give an opinion. The only thing I look at now is whether my interpretation can be justified by facts. As I recall Bruce himself (verified by Linda), said he changed his methods after the fight. I always think that if he had solidly won there would have been reason to change. Well, we’ll never know, but it sure is fun to think about. Probably one of the most pivotal fights of the last century that almost nobody saw. Thanks for reading, and have a great work out.
Suraj says:
Biased article… big time… Lee changed his method because it was restrictive and didn’t encompass everything you would encounter in a fight… he wanted to expand on a fighting style.. how you can make it into something negative is total bs
I didn’t even read the article, but if you research about it, and different eyewitness accounts of the fight, you would understand wong jack man was closest to right.
I am big fan of bruce lee myself, but i believe wong jack man took this one.
Also yes your right, that’s why he changed his fighting style, but the wong jack man battle made his think about his style. He had gotten into fights alot before and didn’t think it was restricted then. I believe he did lose and that was strongest reason to make him think what was wrong. He went ahead and adopted wong jackmans style of course, who was known for his powerful kicks. Which is strange if he had lost the battle with those techniques.
Paul C says:
“He went ahead and adopted wong jack mans style of course, who was known for his powerful kicks.”
There is no evidence that he adopted WJM’s style, the evidence is that he created a more eclectic system. WJM didnt even use kicks in the fight. The evidence of his previous fights is that he never fought anyone of any real skillset and WJ was the first fight he had with someone skilled despite the fact that WJM isnt known as a fighter either.
TRUUTHsayer says:
All I’m saying is if someone went around saying they beat me in a fight and I said then come fight me publicly so everyone can see for themselves who’s better, and you dodge me? Really? If Bruce Lee didn’t reach God status the entire world would be saying the loud mouth that won’t fight him again, lost.
There will always be people trying to knock someone who’s passed away decades ago. You put it well and I agree with it.
It really doesn’t mean shit if he did change fighting styles. He can change fighting methods if he won the bout.
Your bias is obvious – you only gave credit to Wong’s witnesses, but debunked Lee’s. What proof do you have that Wong’s witnesses weren’t lying out of jealousy as well? Also, you only took Wong’s word that it was Lee who wanted the fight kept a secret.
Do you know some MMA fighters commented that even with their hardcore training, it would be near impossible to fight 20 minutes?
Knowing how Chinese martial artists train, lasting a few minutes would have been a miracle. Trust me – I do kungfu, boxing and freestyle sparring.
For a fact, a second challenge was issued to Bruce Lee in a Chinese newspaper and
your great Bruce Lee turned it down and moved out of Oakland to LA.
sam duarte says:
Why fight him again if he had already beaten him ? Linda Lee who was actually there, has always said that Bruce beat Jack Man, but that Bruce felt that he should have beaten him a lot more quickly than he had. That is why he began to question his traditional training in Wing Chun. He eventually gave name to his own personal martial expression as Jeet Kune Do in 1967. Anyone can look up Linda Lee’s comments about this fight on the you tube on the Bruce Lee channel. if anyone has proof that Linda Lee is a liar, then prove it. She has never waivered in her recollections of this fight as well as many other facts about Bruce Lee. Anyone doubting Bruce Lee’s skills as a martial artist can easily access the books, comments of his former students and also ask his students still alive, Dan Inosanto, Richard bustillo, Taky Kimura, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, etc,..He was not God, but then who is ?…But he was most certainly an incredibly talented martial artist. Jim Kelly of Enter the Dragon fame, said that Bruce Lee was unbelievable and he was the greatest martial artist he had ever seen.
Figjt him again? Because Bruce was going around saying he has won. Wong asked for a PUBLIC rematch. So everyone could see and decide who wins. Why would he do that if he had lost? To humiliate himself publicly?
Linda did lie about the whole causians teaching story, womg jack man got unfairly labelled as a racist, but he has Caucasian students who won many championships
Brian C. Shepherd says:
Arthur, I will respond! The facts are the fight lasted less than 3 minutes. Bruce started off nailing Wong on the left side of his head. Wong went into a panic and ran Bruce caught him and banged him until he verbally submitted to being beat. Bruce was mad because he felt he should had eliminated Man in seconds not minutes. This was the start of his conditioning and the birth of JKD! It is Man who sent into hiding and never spoke of the loss. Do your homework before you write BS!
Boast Bitch Love says:
Chin says:
Are you aware that the training of a 100-m sprinter is quite different from an athlete who specializes in the marathon? Do you think the sprinter will do better than the marathon guy in the marathon?
Obviously MMA fighters are unlikely to last 20 minutes. MMA rounds are 5 minutes! Training specificity is a thing FYI. If each round was 20 minutes, don’t you think people would learn to adapt their training for it? The organizations know their audience don’t have the attention span to watch drawn out fights, and drawn out fights are usually boring. Short fights are right in the nature of sport fighting.
Matson says:
Your wrong about that, inboxed for years and I wasn’t a pro. Also I was a heavyweight at 6’4 235lbs and I could fight for 20mins. You don’t know what your talking about
You DID NOT fight for 20 minutes. You took breaks every few minutes – you rested. Think.
Lmao. You sparred for 20 minutes straight? I call BS. Especially if you’re a heavyweight! You’d be gassed in 5. Guarantee no heavyweight in this world can go toe to toe with anyone for that long. Royce Gracie fought Sakuraba for over an hour check that video out. Anyway, is everyone forgetting the purpose for the fight? The Old school Chinese Kung Fu community weren’t happy with Bruce Lee teaching Kung Fu to non Chinese and asked Wong Jack Man to fight Bruce. If Bruce Lost or it was a “tie”, Why didn’t he stop teaching non Chinese then? He continued teaching, so it may seem like he did win. And you don’t have to lose to learn something. The fact that Bruce was chasing and Wong was on the defensive and running away, Bruce didn’t like the limitations of Wing Chun and said he could’ve gotten him if he had learned more boxing style. Also, Bruce had a lot more to gain/lose in the fight. He was more invested and he would’ve taken it more seriously. Wong Jack Man was asked to fight, and He also taught non Chinese, so he could’ve cared less. And before Bruce did all that strength and core training, he didn’t have much stamina. He wouldn’t have even lasted 20 minutes if the fight got dragged on that long
Quite an intriguing story. Surfaced only when the man, the legend, the innovator of martial arts already passed away, after 44 years, albeit if Bruce Lee was still living no stories or word of mouth like this will likely sprang out on the part of Wong Jak Man.
Actually, this was not the first time I heard such intriguing stories. There was a similar stories also surfaced in the Philippines, a man wanted to make a name for himself. Claiming that he beat Bruce Lee in Hong Kong during a friendly fight. This was claimed by the founder of TRACMA, who call himself as the only man who beats Bruce Lee. This was circulated in the country long after Bruce Lee died. The thing there if Bruce was still living, a challenge is likely to be made to prove his claims, his allegations.
Anybody who knows really who Bruce Lee was, will not say such a thing.
Jackson-Farnell says:
Blessings to all. erik, and the BL story isn’t one such “intriguing story” itself? For crying out loud BL was a Hollywood actor! Something doesn’t become a more “intriguing story” than from the archives of Hollywood as a Hollywood actor. That is what people are failing to realize, that BL was only that good in the movies and not in real fights, particularly one in which he was as evenly and fairly matched as possible. People think that BL’s story is less “intriguing” as the other “stories” when in actuality, they have more realism to them than does the BL story as their characters’ experience was based mostly in real combat and not in movie props as mostly BL’s was. As for BL’s “real” fighting experience, he has had very few actual and real fights. That makes most of his works, good as they were, theoretical. He was an experimenter and to his credit, a pioneer, going where others haven’t venymtured before. I am careful to give credit where credit is due by saying his works and skill was astronomical, while at the same time, making the distinction that they were mostly only theoretical as they existed only in the movies and not in actual and real combat. Actual and real combat is the crux of a fighter’s craft, so it is not alright to be merely theoretical as a fighter. Or else one will be guilty of resorting to a very thing BL taught against–thinking they can go into a street fight after reading and practicing from some Martial Arts books. Nor is it fair for a fighter to be able to be accoladed for just or mostly being theoretical. One can only be fair if they bring that fact to bear along with the high praises they afford BL. In the regard of actual combat, WJM was more real than BL. That should settle it. But if not, we can see what an actual match between the two bore out–BL failed to “beat” WJM. That should be the end of discussion. But for all the BL worshippers, their enthusiasm for him seems to likewise take on fantastical proportions as BL himself did.
Blessings to all. And also erik, as people may be smart enough to not take the TRACMA founder’s claim entirely at face value without first fact checking as much as possible, one must allow for something being to the claim. It might not be as the TRACMA founder says in beating BL, but some other interesting facts may be learned about the development of BL’s skill-set. Given the fact that as a MMA, BL was constantly incorporating new arts into his repertoire, Fillipino Martial Arts is one such skill for which BL learned from Fillipino Martial Arts instructors. It has even been rumored that he learned nunchuku and stick fighting use from learning under such instructors. The TRACMA founder is said to be one such instructor. Who is to say that he wasn’t beat as he learned under him? After all, instructors beat their students all the time. And would our “humble” o’le BL admit that if it happened? Just some speculative thought. Also, people behave as BL was above being under instruction or something. As a MMArtist, BL was constantly learning from other practitioners and systems. He just compiled other arts. It is not like he really originated with anything.
Blessings to all. First Alex there was reason to debunk BL’s camp witness, Linda Lee was incorrect. WJM’s witness did not claim an undisputed victory as did BL and his camp. So BL and BL’s camp are more at risk of exaggeration than WJM and his camp. BL and BL’s camp not only claimed a victory but a hands-down, record time victory–3-5 minutes. BL accepted and beat lesser opponents than WJM in much more time than WJM. He reputably beat one in 17 minutes. To even imply a victory in 3 mins. is an insult to WJM’s status as a Sensei. It is to say that WJM was not even a worthy opponent of BL in which case, why all the hubbub of BL accepting the chalkenge of and fighting a nobody? Quite to the contrary WJM was more than a worthy opponent of BL’s as he was a better opponent than BL, which was evidenced in the fight on all grounds. Even out of the fight, he ranks as a better opponent than BL as BL is a Hollywood actor not a fighter, having few real fights whereas WJM is a fighter having had plenteous real fights. This fact alone advantaged WJM in the actual real fight. So majorly, BL was a theoretician, an experimenter, while WJM was a time-tested and established warrior. There is reason to more believe WJM’s witness of wanting the fight to be public as it was in keeping with his second challenge–a public bout response to which BL declined. As for your 20-min. fight impossibility claim, most if not all of that time was spent with WJM being ambushed by a murderous contender and his defending against such. “Ambushed,” as WJM did not know nor agree to the fight being a death match. BL unfairly and dishonestly ambushed WJM to which WJM responded with masterful defense, the likes that BL could hardly touch the man except for the match’s opening cheat in which BL AGAIN acted dishonestly. Such masterful defense prevented a death as WJM could have easily killed BL, while BL could not kill WJM even with an ambush and cheating, although he tried with all he had to kill WJM. ALL he had, which is why BL subsequently had to change ALL he had as ALL he had was useless against his better. Really, BL should have thanked God that WJM was not as of ill character as he was as then BL would have been humiliated and needed to be gathered by gurney. Instead of silently thanking WJM what did BL do? He spewed even more slander. Did “karma” according to Eastern Mysticism (I call it justice), finally get BL or did WJM deliver a deathblow resulting in BL’s cerebral edema which was his cause of death? Could that even be a motive as to why BL and his camp lied so voraciously in claiming a 3-min. victory? Because they knew the cause of BL’s death was at WJM’s hand? So they employed damage control in order to save BL’s Hollywood acting career? To have his lost become public knowledge would have done horrible wonders for his career while work wonders for WJM. Hollywood would be beating down his door to film him instead of BL. But this is all empty speculation, right…or is it? So having a murderous contender ambush someone with a match could very well explain a match going for 20 mins., as most of the time would be spent defending against and parrying away from BL rather than actually fighting. And mind you, defending by parrying away from the murderous BL was actually a harder thing to do for WJM than if he were to fight toe-to-toe with BL as BL was astronomically skilled and to only defend against such an opponent would require superb defense ability. Also, if the fight had to be stopped from two expert Martial Artists exerting only 3 or 5 mins worth of fighting, then that would register them both as being in horrible shape. How long is a boxing match round? It is 3 minutes with a 1-minute interval between rounds. And Martial Arts is a more rigorously demanding sport than boxing as it involves usage of one’s entire body as opposed to Boxing only demanding hand and arm usage. So being that more is involved in a Martial Arts match than a Boxing one, it would take much longer than 3 mins. for one of two highly skilled and equally matched contenders to dispatch the other. Both were said to be winded. Expert Martial Artists not only train for toughness, skill, and speed, but also for endurance. So BL and his camp would have us believe that not only did he “beat” WJM in 3 mins., but that both was winded to the point of exhaustion from such a bout? It doesn’t even make sense much less hold up to sensible scrutiny as was clearly shown. No. A Martial Arts match where, between two highly skilled and equally matched opponents more defense had to take place than actual fighting did, could easily go over 20 mins. The same rings true even in Boxing, which is less of a skill-set than Martial Arts as it only involves usage of of hands and arms. In a Boxing match between two highly and equally skilled fighters in which defense is a predominant act, the fight can almost go on forever. 20 mins. is more in line with the witness of WJM and his camp. And ultimately, more in line with reality. That is much more believeable than a 3-min. arrogant claim of BL’s dispatching a very good fighter. That is a belittling insult. No wonder why WJM reissued a challenge to which BL declined. So that this time he would not only repay BL for such arrogant disrespect to his fighting ability, but also lay to rest any doubt who was best by eliminating any hiding room a private bout could provide BL to lie. Anyone could lie and say whatever they want to about something that happened privately, but they cannot do so publicly where everybody witnessed the act. As a matter of witnessed public knowledge, no one could lie. And that is also why BL wanted the match to be in private, so that he could lie if he lost and save on much embarrassment and save his career. It appears BL opted more and more special treatment for his bout with WJM as as far as is known, he only opted a private match when fighting WJM. Could this be because he knew he would have trouble with WJM?
Blessings to all. @sam duarte. Actually you are ignoring or rejecting evidence presented in the article that Linda Lee was mistaken in claiming the reason for the match was over the teaching of non-Asians, when it was clearly shown that there was no issue over the teaching of non-Asians Martial Arts, with all schools in relation to the matter having non-Asian students. That spoils her credibility as a credible witness. I do not think anyone is trying to take away from any credit of BL’s. Everyone knows and accepts he was phenomenal. People are just trying to arrive at the truth of what transpired in the fight between BL and WJM. The problem is that the BL enthusiasts that would elevate BL’s status to fantastical proportions are not allowing for objective scrutiny of the facts through their fantastical affinity for BL.
I was going to say “BL wouldn’t want that,” but caught myself upon remembering that BL was not an honorable charactered person and so, acknowledge that he would want his followers to deify him. Highly skilled but not homorable as can be beared out in his fight with his better WJM. Obvious lies has been called out is all.
“As I recall Bruce himself (verified by Linda), said he changed his methods after the fight. I always think that if he had solidly won there would have been reason to change.” Again, there is a flaw in your method. You’re leaning on 1 thought and allowing it to lead you to a conclusion. If this fight were the reason that he changed his method, it could have been for many reasons other than losing. He could have been inspired from the challenge. Often times, creative people and people of extreme skill need to be inspired to make change or create. Maybe this was his first real challenge and it caused him to have a spark of innovation. He could have also ‘almost’ lost. Sometimes when a successful person ‘almost’ faces failure, it makes them rethink their strategy. There’s also the possibility that Bruce got bored. Sometimes doing the same routine causes a person to change things up. We saw Bruce as the best – so why would he change what he’s doing – right? However, Bruce was always about being better. Oliver Cromwell said it best – “He who stops being better, stops being good.” There’s a reason that Bruce was the best. It’s because he was always getting better. Anyway – it was still a good read. I’m looking forward to the movie that’s coming out 🙂
Just because someone changes up their styles or try to get better as a fighter doesn’t mean they lost. For example- I saw my dad beat up a guy in a fight when I was a teenager. Afterwards although he had convincingly won the fight he didn’t like how the guy wrestled him to the grown so he decided to get in shape so if the fight was to ever happen again he couldn’t be wrestled to the ground.
Alaric Viola says:
It probably did last 20 minutes, and this is the main point of why Lee changed his style. He has been recorded as stating the fight lasted too long and he developed JKD to remedy that. On the other hand, 3 minutes in a highly intense fight could easily be miscalculated to be longer. Everyone thinks “small” amounts of time are quick, but they really aren’t. Just stand in front of your microwave for 30 seconds while waiting for your food to heat up. That 30 seconds suddenly turns into a long time. Water tends to boil after 5 minutes. Ever sat there waiting for water to boil? It takes forever unless you’re doing something else at the same time. Idk if it lasted 3 minutes or 20, but it’s easy to see where either party could become mistaken. You’re probably right though that it was a close fight. WJM may have gotten some good grappling moves in making his side think he won, but if he had been on the defensive most of the time, then it is easy to see where Bruce’s side thought Bruce won. After all, we judge modern blood sports a lot on aggression. But here’s another point. The winner will often brag while the loser often wishes for the fight to just go away. Bruce bragged. WJM remained silent, and didn’t even attempt to correct the issue according to your article. Furthermore, if Bruce’s right to teach was on the line, the fight didn’t apparently stop him. So I’m honestly leaning to Bruce winning. Thanks for the article and your take on a questionable history though.
Thomas Fields says:
The fact that the fight lasted so long was reason enough to change fighting style. As a marital artist myself a street fight should Less than 1 minute anything over that is a loss in my book. In fact at the age of 61 I know it’s a loss. 20 minutes is almost 6 rounds in a boxing match and boxers get a 1 minute rest in between. It is far fetched to believe these two men fought for that long without collapsing. As a Bruce Lee fan I take no position on who won the fight. From all accounts I would say that neither man died or showed visible signs of defeat except the account from the Wong camp that said he had a cut near his eye.
Timothy Lumley says:
Hi Tom, I found your comments interesting as I’m also 61 and boxed and trained others for a quarter century. At my prime and in great condition I found myself tiring after 6 intense rounds in a hard fight and as you said thats with a minute rest per three minutes. Sometimes my brothers and I would spar hard for fifteen or twenty minutes straight but thats about it. One thing that struck me about their fight and styles is that Wing Chung in close vs attacking a moving away style may be two entirely different matters and that without the many years needed for patience and the idiosyncrasies in that style, which Bruce could not have developed in a mere two years, it could have been seen by him as a failure of that system. The boxing footwork and style of punching he adapted into his system can be very effective attacking and that may be what attracted him to it. The book he learned from was a long out of print How to box book from the instructor at the University of Minnesota in the 1940’s, one I owned and lost and the best of all I had read.
WJM did not remain silent. There was an article posted in the Chinese Pacific Weekly (apparently Chinese language newspaper read by the Chinese community), giving WJM’s side of things. It was on the front page, above the fold.
The article concluded with an invitation to Bruce Lee for a public match if Lee found his version to be unacceptable.
Bruce Lee never responded or even acknowledged the article.
Have you seen any Mayweather boxing match… He definitely is not the aggressor and he gets the decision every time
DrakeRnR says:
But Mayweather actually trained his whole life in boxing but with Wong we know so little about his experience with no videos of him sparring compared to what we have of Bruce.
As a huge Bruce Lee fan, I’m tempted to defend him based on nothing more than I like him, but the reality is, we don’t know the truth. I do believe Bruce Lee tended to exaggerate his boasts even when unlikely. However, even Wong did not claim victory. He claimed he could have killed Lee, but I find that hard to believe any more than Lee could have killed him or any man could kill any other. Linda Lee may have oversimplified it, but Lee developing Jeet Kune Do doesn’t mean he lost–it means he was fatigued at the end of the fight and realized that’s not practical. At worst (for Lee) it was a draw, but by no means was it a defeat when Wong was as tired and spent the entirety of the fight defending without much offense.
Victor D.S. Man says:
Good argument.
gboy says:
yeah, i’m a huge bruce fan too. Or atleast i was till i found out who he really was. Never the less he is one of my childhood icons. Nobody really won according to what i’ve read, and I beleive Wong was better than Bruce. But the thing is people compare all these martial artists and fighters, i think it’s silly. Fighters like Bruce, Joe lewis, Ali, Tyson, Manny, Floyd are just the publicised fighters. They were really good , no arguement. But you can’t compare them with the real great masters like master Uyeshiba, Funokoshi, Ip man etc. (and these are the recent great masters) Real martial arts masters a couple of 100 yrs ago, didnt need to prove anything, they were of a different class. Some of them didn’t need to lift a finger against an opponent.
gboy before you say Wong was better know this in China many so called masters of Kung Fu who didn’t really spar all that much compared to Wing Chun people in Hong Kong who are often involved in rooftop fights so they had to spar. This is why I think Bruce Lee beating Wong in 3 minutes is more realistic because this is how fights often go. If the fight did go 20 minutes without an mention of breaks then these guys have a world record because neither Bruce or Wong had the experience of full contact matches boxers and modern MMA fighters had and if it was a draw then Wong doesn’t know how to beat someone who was less experienced than him at martial arts since he’s suppose to be a master.
Wong Jack Man at the time of the fight wasnt a master.
otieno says:
Everyone is missing the point here. I spar a lot in my gym and I can tell you if Bruce Lee was that much better than Wong, Wong wouldn’t have walked away from the fight with just a scratch after challenging the ‘fastest puncher’ and most prolific kung fu practitioner, Wong was a badass, he could go home healthy to his wife and say, ” I’ve just faught Bruce Lee”.
DraekRnR says:
otieno you didn’t prove Wong put up any better of a fight. Why is it Wong never told his students about his fight with Bruce and admitted he wished he didn’t fight Bruce.
That tells you Wong lost the fight in a sort of way.
soti says:
–Lee’s wife said it in her book that after the fight he changed his style and trained like a maniac
–Lee said it in an interview that after the fight realised that the wing chun was not as effective as he first thought
–and…. he also closed all his schools until he developed jean kun do.
basic psychology here : if you stop believing in your martial arts effectiveness do you continue with your scools????????
also speaking first about an incident when agreed not to, that means his ego was hurt and was afraid of his credibility if Wong Jack Man has talked first. it would look like he was afraid to speak first which would mean he had lost. so he spoke first. basic psychology of an arrogant person.
my opinion is that the fight was a draw. cause his Lee’s ego if he had lost he would backstab the man on his way out of the dojo and everywitness in the scene or he would have committed suicide.
reasonable conclusion is not bias mate!!!!
jim morrison says:
One side thought bruce won..the other side thought it was a draw…why not just say wong jack man won? Cause he didn’t…Use logic here…it’s obvious lee won…Real fights do not go 20 minutes…never…when have you ever seen a real fight go even 5 minutes? It rarely happens..most definitely not 20….That insane to think that…I do not believe linda is lying…I believe that bruce won…Cause simply this..even men on wong jack mans side said their man didn’t win…That should tell you something right there..
That’s kind of a dumb argument Wong was a humble man and not a braggart like lee
A very awesome point of view…here are some interesting things I have noticed as well.
1. There is a difference between fighting for twenty minutesand running for 20 minutes .if I was present, and I witnessed two men exchanging blows for 3 minutes then suddenly it shifting to one man running.and on the defensive for 17 minutes after that, I would have called it a 3 minute bout. Even in todays modern boxing, if ur getting whaled upon after round one but survive for the rest of the match running until the decision time at rnd 10or12. People will say it was over after round one they will not even credit the loser the honor of saying he went the distance. Also Bruce Lee was OCD about everything especially martial arts, it is a known fact through creditable witnesses and documented records he was a pioneer in martial arts always engineering new ways to advance his martial arts skills. His style was already changing long before the fight, it is said he took up fencing and studied western boxing along with many different art forms discarding what he thought to be rubbish and keeping what worked. A man so sure of his wing chin wouldn’t have done this unless he was already losing fights( which was far from true) at this time, or he was pursuing innovation which was Bruces middle name.The final thought, and the clenc her, the winner always talks when it comes to the public media, Bruce Lee was an icon no man who beat Bruce lee in a match would ever stay silent after witnessing his sudden rise to fame, a rise that had he lost would not have been allowed remember what it meant if he lost can’t teach anymore but he went along and did it anyways, and slaughtered every challenge on the way. A man who lost would never make it to fame the way he did. Bruce lee was extremely cocky, and very arrogant according to friends and family. This man eluded him for 20 minutes leading to a very strong ideal that it was probably the longest fight he’d had in ages, even on the run the cocky Bruce would have found it highly offensive that a peon lasted that long with him, hence the eminent burst of motivation to further advance his skills after. They were advanced because Bruce Lee was not a sitting still kinda person, Today if alive I guarantee he would not be at home retired but still trying to sharpen his skills like a mad man trying to find a flaw in his design. To Bruce, whether your running or not u will be obliterated in seconds defending is pointless. Except in this case last 17 minutes worth of running meant to Bruce that he might as well have lost, that his incredible lightning fast punches and kicks were still far too slow to be effective or penetrate through the guard of a man whom according to ur own post, was already a dead man.
Bruce wasnt all that well known when he went out and broke the rule of silence and bragged about beating WJM. WJM never claimed to win and thought it was a draw. WJM requested a rematch and never got it.
Skipp says:
WJM didn’t just request a rematch, he specifically requested a very public rematch. If Bruce and Linda’s description of the fight was accurate then this was a very one sided fight and quite honestly an embarrassment to WJM. Then WHY request a PUBLIC rematch if he was so soundly embarrassed the first time??? Obviously WJM had confidence that he would not be embarrassed, and was willing to put the truth out in the open, not with words but with actions. Anyone can SAY what they want about things that occur in private, if they don’t have to prove it. Bruce, declining a public opportunity to prove everything he claimed does not make sense, unless his claims were false. Imagine the impact it would have had on his business/income as a martial arts teacher if this public bout had gone ahead and he had proven all of his previous claims. It just doesn’t ring true.
IGotAxeForYou says:
People who lose a fight always want a rematch, because having been through it they think they can do better. They feel they’ve learned the secret. Just look at post fight press conferences. In fact WJM’s whole story sounds like a losing fighter justifying their loss to themselves, “oh I could have ended it 3 times because I had him in a headlock and could have punched him” really? a headlock is a fight ender now? This is a guy who’s never tried to knock someone out from a headlock.
Sorry but Bruce/Linda’s story sounds like what generally happens in a real fight and WJM’s sounds like what someone says to themselves to help them cope with the loss.
I have nothing against Bruce. he is a legend, but only in the movies! One example, Gene Lebell could have kicked his as in a restaurant we we were having munch. Bruce as corky as ever thinking he is the best! Thats when Gene ask Bruce….Do you want to step outside now and let’s see how good you really are? Bruce was in panic mode and quickly started saying…oh no…I do not want to fight you. Than Gene said;; shut the hell up or I shut it up for you. Bruce kept quiet through the evening like a little boy. He was put in his place! Gene is the type of person he will shut you up. He don’t play games or associate himself with losers like that. Wong was a humble street fighter and who have been in many street fights. When Bruce got hurt, he couldn’t breath because his ribs were broken and his kidneys were damage. besides the multiple strikes to his face that made him like a balloon fish. Why do you say these things when you weren’t their and second, do you know any of guys who were there to judge the fight? I didn’t think so.
To Jama Wong lost there is no proof Bruce had any injuries but Wong has been quiet about the fight ever since the fact he wanted the rematch. Losers are the ones who request a rematch and Wong was so scared of Bruce that when Leo Fong and Bruce showed up at his restaurant about the fight Wong was said to be hiding out of sight. lol doesn’t sound like Wong did much damage to Bruce that he was confronted and cowered.
Killa says:
I know Leo Fong. You ask Leo if this is true! There’s alot you dont know. Sad. It just shows how much you know and how well you are connected with the inside info and inner circle.
Blessings all. @IGotAxeForYou. It can be equally argued that people who win fights are also reluctant to rematch for fear that they won a fluke or that the person they once beat has honed their skills or learned enough of what to do in order to beat them. And from all credible accounts even BL’s, BL was unsatisfactory in performance. So, for the sake of this following ilkustration, let us say that BL did win (which he did not). Being unsatisfied with his performance would give him ample motive to decline a rematch being that his fighting was not as effective as he would have liked it to be and chances are WJM may have improved and learned what it took to finally beat him from having the live match. That would seem like reason enough for BL to decline a rematch.
Blessings to all. “…there is no proof Bruce had any injuries but Wong has been quiet about the fight ever since the fact he wanted the rematch. Losers are the ones who request a rematch and Wong was so scared of Bruce that when Leo Fong and Bruce showed up at his restaurant about the fight Wong was said to be hiding out of sight. lol doesn’t sound like Wong did much damage to Bruce that he was confronted and cowered.” @DrakeRnR. Your above statement can be argued in the reverse: there is no proof that Wong had any injuries (save for a slit under his eye from BL’s cheat move before the match, which does not count being a cheat). As for WMJ’s silence as to the fight, that was the agreed upon agreement of both parties before the fight. A term of the fight. The only difference is that WMJ had honor enough to uphold his end of the agreement while BL did not. You know, it takes honor and integrity to uphold one’s word, things BL has already proven to be at a deficit of from the very beginning of the match. So there goes your argument in defence of BL worship…totally dismantled. Face it, you vied for a person who had no integrity of character. Integrity of skill, yes but of character, no. And do not feel bad as we all were once emphatuated with BL. But as things come to light about him and how he really was character-wise, there should be a reconsideration of such BL adoration and endorsement. There would be a lack of reconsideration only if a person is as dememted as he was in not caring about having character. In which case, that is a bad problem. The bad thing is not to once having been taken by BL’s media endorsement. The bad thing is to continue being taken by it in spite of being given ample reason to reconsider. So really, all this isn’t any longer about BL, as BL is dead and gone. It is about his fans having immovable allegiance, not only to BL but what he stood for–skill in the absence of character. Come to think about it, it now makes sense that BL was really an actor and not a fighter as per Chuck Norris’ observation as not only did BL rarely fight real matches (something a fighter doesn’t do), he lacked character, something that is most likely a product of Hollywood,…of acting.
shakeel says:
lee changed his style because he was upset that the fight took 3 mins.he always thought that wing chung was the greatest of all martial arts cos he was taught by the greatest ip man
but he then realised that it has weaknesses such as the fixed stance.he started to learn ali’s footwork and so forth developping jeet kune do
No reason to quote a dead man’s words when there’s no way to refute them anymore. There’s no way to prove whether Lee lied. But based on the whole collection of witness accounts, the logical conclusion is that Lee’s version was implausible. That is, coming from an outsider’s POV, not a Bruce Lee fan, JKD enthusiast or someone who makes money off of Lee’s legacy.
Blessings to all. Shakeel. It may very well be true that BL was disappointed with his 3-minute results as he issued the claim that he could whip any man in the world in under 60 seconds. Not only was he disappointed with his 3-min. results, what’s more is he failed to put his man away. He failed to win altogether. So he had to also be disappointed with failing to win altogether as well. Winning to BL is putting his man away as he claimed to be able to do in under 60 secs as remember, BL is a pioneer and fighting experimenter. Anything shy of that is losing to him and should be counted as losing to his fans as well, but you guys just will not accept that. BL made such a claim to the world as an experimenter, confidently experimenting whether his then fighting system of a Wing Chun base worked to be able to deliver an under 60 sec. defeat to any man. It failed to do so when he met his better in WJM. As simple as that. Failure to deliver on the demands BL placed upon it is losing. Losing most of all because he failed to “beat” WJM as not only did WJM survive the relentless highly skilled scathing attacks of BL but did so unscathed. We are not talking about surviving the attacks of just anyone here. We are talking about surving the attacks of the said-to-be world’s greatest fighter in hos time. WJM did not leave BL’s dojo on a stretcher or gurney. He walked out totally unscathed in total health. That, in and of itself, says volumes particularly when for the duration of the fight, BL was the aggressor while WJM was the defender, successfully parrying all of BL’s attacks. Do people realize what that means? That means that WJM beat BL by his defense alone, such that BL could not even hit or even touch him. That is like WJM and BL agreed to a fight where WJM had his hands tied and BL was tasked with the task of being challenged to effectively hit him and couldn’t. Some would even throw into that example that WJM could even have his feet tied as well as WJM only used his feet to effectively parry away from and counter block BL’s onslaughts and not to use them offensively to unleash his barrage of dangerous kicks. This also places BL at a fighting advantage as not using his feet offensively, makes WJM, as a Martial Artist (with Martial Artist’s most pronounced and dangerous weapons being their legs with kicks and knees) half of a Martial Arts fighter. And BL STILL could not beat him.
And that is to say nothing of when WJM went on the offense which, no one in BL’s camp including BL mentioned anything of, painting the picture that WJM was entirely on the defense the duration of the fight, not getting so much as one hit in on BL. Now that is biased reporting if ever there has been. BL was confidently emotionally attached to his before WJM match fighting system much like a salesman is emotionally attached to a product that, for some time, got him some sales and made him money. People need to come to terms that BL was a Hollywood actor and not a fighter, a showpiece.
David Williamson says:
“People need to come to terms that BL was a Hollywood actor and not a fighter, a showpiece.”
How are you defining the term Fighter?
Bruce Lee had to fight against Racial Stereotypes to become a Hollywood Actor didn’t he? Hence he was a fighter.
As for being a Showpiece … a showpiece for who… again Bruce Lee put Chinese Kung Fu on the Map in the USA and also boosted the popularity in Hong Kong Cinema. He had to fight for those things to happen.
If Bruce Lee hadn’t trained Hollywood Stars, do you think the doors would have opened for him in the USA.
If Bruce Lee didn’t have legitimacy would the Action Movie Stars have paid him to train them?
You know something Jackson-Farnell, you are the most self-defeating debater I have ever come across. Absolutely clueless.
samuel m. duarte says:
All this energy spent arguing about whether Bruce Lee was a real fighter/martial artist. In my opinion of over 25 years in the martial arts, he was indeed a real fighter/martial artist. After having spoken to people who actually knew him, whom I did not pay a single dime too. to share with me their actual real life experiences with him, my own knowledge, the fact that so many ‘real life fighters’,(Mike Tyson, Sugar Ray Leonard, Roy Mancini, Lyoto Machida, Connor McGregor, Georges St Pierre, Ben Saunders, Eddie Bravo,The Diaz brothers, Cung Li, Jon Jones, and on and on, all admire him greatly). I have not even mentioned his former students who sparred with him directly, have consistently expressed for decades that they never encountered any other martial artist of his caliber. If you want a fight record for him, they do no exist. Martial tournaments in his day he called “Dry land swimming,’, because they were more a game of tag, and not testing ones actual skills. He was not interested in participating in these farces. Bruce Lee’s fights, skills, were evident in the streets and his schools. Unless you can prove otherwise that all his former students were ‘liars’ as well as his widow, and that I and all the aforementioned great fighters/mixed martial artists are less ‘knowledgeable’ than you, all you have on your side is conjecture, period. You’re entitled to your own opinion, but it is not empirical evidence of any kind. I take the word of individuals who share with me the actual life experience.
(Mike Tyson, Sugar Ray Leonard, Roy Mancini, Lyoto Machida, Connor McGregor, Georges St Pierre, Ben Saunders, Eddie Bravo,The Diaz brothers, Cung Li, Jon Jones, and on and on, all admire him greatly.
Admiration doesnt mean he was a fighter. Naming people who never saw him fight and cant name anyone of any skills who ever fought Bruce isnt useful to the argument.
Jackson-Farnell You are a nutcase. Wong never wanted to speak about the fight again that’s a fact he wouldn’t even share with his own students of his performance and that fact alone proves he lost. Not one hit you’ve never read the fight have you even Wongs students admit Wong had taken hits and went to the floor. I love how you are kissing Wongs butt and making it like his kicks are deadly when we have no proof his kicks have been demonstrated. If they had he would be out more and demonstrating them showing how powerful his kicks are to the public but the fact is he didn’t and it’s hypocritical for you to say Bruce Lee never proved himself yet Wong Jak Man was never documented in sparring or ever hurt anyone with his kicks.
You have hit on a point I have made many times. Not only is there no evidence that Bruce Lee was a proven fighter there is no evidence that Wong Jack Man was one either. So basically you had to non fighters going at it.
Alexander Robertson says:
If there’s not an undisputed winner in a match like that then there isn’t a winner, Bruce lee supposedly told him he was going to kill him, ( I believe it was done to intimidate), but he clearly didn’t kill him. Wong in turn didn’t kill or humiliate Bruce either. There for no winner. Bruce Lee changing and advancing his style after the fight doesn’t mean he lost instead it means he gained knowledge and saw flaws, this didn’t make him a loser or weak, it’s instead what made him a champion and a great martial artist. We all won in fact because Bruce Lee, who was at that point in his life very proud and overly confident in his ability, because he wasnt able to easily destroy Wong Jack Man like he thought he would and came to realize the short comings in his style.
Blessings to all. Very good points Alexander Robertson! And to add, BL tried with everything at his disposal to kill WJM (which is why BL disagreed with there being regulations, so he could, in desperation, fight dirty,…try and kill WJM). And yes, BL was weak and a loser for having such a disparaging character as to both cheat (with the sleight-of-hand move he pulled at the beginning of the match) and try to kill WJM when A., WJM was unaware of and would not be agreed to the fight being to the death, and B., WJM as you said, didn’t humiliate or kill BL (when he had ample chance to. By my book, that makes BL much more than a loser. It makes him also a dishonest cheat, low-life, and murderer among other things. So do not go it light on BL. Tell it like it is. BL not only lost to WJM but lost to life (and lost his life) and all that is virtuous due to so horrible a display of character. I do not care how much skill a person may have (and skilled BL was indeed!). If they do not have character, they are nothing but skilled savages…monsters. None that I would ever applaud lest I be as demented as them. BL was someone I liked and very much admired until I learned such things about him when facing his betters. The test isn’t just in seeing how one is with those they are above, in how they treat them, but also, it is in how one takes and reacts in character to those above him. Many do not account for the latter and are surprised by them. And it doesn’t matter how good one may be at something, there is always someone better out there. They just have not met them as yet. But life has a funny way of bringing them around at the right time–when ee need humbling. Now how well one handles and accepts this determines much. Humility is key. Unfortunately, BL did not accept or handle this well. Because he did not appear to be the humble type. WJM was. This is why it is best to be humble or you will get humbled…ask BL. And you know, all of this is really stupid. This idea of BL’s to seriously want to hurt or even kill someone over comparing skills. Over establishing reputability. That is so below humanity. It reminds me of the Wild West with gunfighting amongst gunfighters for repute. People died over stupid contest, over seeing who was quickest at the draw. How stupid? How evil can something be? Psychotic and sadistic.
Well allow me to enlighten u Floyd Mayweather a retired from boxing 49-0 in his carreer he had two controversial wins however still wins due to how close the fight was prior to each rematch he gave his opponent he trained harder and switched his style up from brawler to a bit more finess..Well were is the relevance? Well Bruce Lee still could have whooped his tell but during the fight he saw things that he liked from the opponent and also noticed hos flaws that could have helped him win even more convincingly..get it? GOOD DAY U CAN THANK ME LATER
BenV says:
It goes without saying. Professional fighters seek to learn new things all the time. After every fight win or lose there is always an assessment phase of things that were done right and things that could be improved. This is common in competitive athletics and warfare as well. Can’t believe people somehow are ignorant of this. Good thing Bruce wasn’t.
Yeah but to switch to a style that bruce lee could beat so easy he claims, like in 3 mimutes?
Why would anyone switch to losing style is beyond me. I think the match did last for a long time. Draw or loss, bruce lee didn’t won this one. I don’t understand even why people act like its necessary for Bruce to have won like he was a human, him losing is a possibility.
First of all Mayweather doesn’t throw any punches he’s a counterpuncher which means he stands there until somebody does something …second.. accounts that Wong had Bruce Lee in a headlock but chose not to strike says a lot… Wong also wasn’t using his kicks which were considered deadly
Just another example of Wong’s BS just to make him like a good fighter after he lost to Bruce.
Blessings to all. judge, a professional being progressive and honing his skills as naturally should be the case is one thing. Unnaturally, abruptly, and all-of-a sudden in reference to other bouts BL had, is what is rightly being called into question. BL was an experimenter and a pioneer. The keen observer noted that BL did not prospect the idea of abruptly changing his model until the bout with WJM. It is observed that when he whizzed through his much lesser opponents, he did not change his model. It was only when he met WJM that he decided on changing things. So no, it cannot be passed off as his natural experimentation and wanting to progress. If so, he would have done so after every bout he had. But only with WJM was he so compelled to change things. If you were a detective and you did not see something like that as being out of place, you would lose your case.
Amin el ramos says:
So very true bro!!! This guy came up with his own interpretation.
Well pointed out, totally in agreement with you.
SiFu Ye says:
I was born when Master Wong beat Bruce Lee he was a calm man.
Blessings to all. SiFu Ye, that is quite interesting as I was born the day and month (not year) BL died due most likely to the deathblow SenSei Wong administered to BL during the match.
Jackson-Farnell Now you wanna make of a story of Wongs hit I thought you said he was on the defense the whole time.
If anything Bruce was beating Wongs head to the grouund so Wong was scared of fighting Bruce again once he came to his restaurant.
Too bad that was an alternate universe because in this one Bruce beat Wong to the ground.
I actually think the same way. Bruce must have found fault in his technique and changed his style or added something to it and changed from Wing Chun to Jet Kun Do. If you are aware that there was another fighter who defeated Bruce Lee in 1960s. Trovador Ramos a Pilipino guy who teaches Martial Arts in Hong Kong or China somewhere. A lot of rumour says that Bruce Lee won the fight before the Enter the Dragon. But the reality, Bruce was defeated, but it was not before the Enter the Dragon movie, but before the Way of the Dragon movie. Trovador was asked by Bruce to make the film with him, but in the movie Bruce wins because he is the hero in the movie. The fight will be in Rome. Trovador said that, “Why would I make you beat me while in real life I beat you”. So Bruce went to invite Chuck Norris instead. Pilpino taught Bruce how to use nunchuck and stick fighting. But I guess no one will ever know that except those who were there when it happened. Bruce is only as tall as me and same weight, but I believe he can be as good as he claimed, way more than I can wish myself. But there are some true stories that people must know that there will always be better than your hero.
That story was made up for his reputation.
Much like most claims about Bruce Lee and his fighting.
Funny enough already skilled martial artists known from around the world and professional boxers praised Bruce Lee’s skills and admit how well his fighting style was. Wong Jak Man doesn’t have such praise.
Blessings to all. Jerome, I believe it myself because there are a few facts people must accept first about life, then about BL. About life, no one person can be the greatest of all time in any undertaking that is an open competitive market. There will always, and I repeat always, be someone or multiple people better than the claimed “greatest.” And there are a few reasons for this but it boils down to humility as through humility, one will have the wisdom of keeping their talent secret. Once a talent is public and open to view, it can be studied, mastered (even to a greater extent than the originator), emulated and engineered, all which makes for someone besting another. Think of renown boxing matches where. Do you know how many challengers reviewed the footage of the champions they would face before fighting and beating them? Why do you think celebrities in sports and entertainment is always bested? Because their talents are in plain view to all. In order to even have a shot at being amongst the best at a skill, one must remain out of public view. This is why there are such things as “unsung heroes” because the greatest is usually people you do not hear of, that are out of the lime light. BL tried to violate this rule and attempt to be the greatest while in public. It doesn’t work. About BL. BL was a pioneer and an experimenter. This allowed him to have a “catch all” position where he isn’t tied to one model nor to its defeat should it be showed up, while enabling him to assume any and all models or parts of them. This really absolves him of any representation and thereby loss of any one model as if he is beaten, the loss cannot be attributed to a model as he does not represent one model. He was just an experimenter, pioneering (which commands respect by itself) so it wouldn’t really bear that bad on him as say, if he were to fully represent a particular model as did WJM. No. BL is more representative of a free form concept than a traditional fighting system. So when people cheered BL they were cheering this idea, this concept. But in essence what was it really? It was a mere compilation of different fighting systems merged and even augmented into one fighting system. But it comprised snippets from just about every fighting system…an amalgam. Anything BL thought could be usefully incorporated into it he incorporated. To his credit, attempting a fighting amalgam is a lot of work, with the brunt of its work being in trial in error. One has to painstakingly, through trial and error, learn what works and doesn’t without having a set road paved and channel to traverse as within a traditional system. What’s more, one attempting an amalgam/MMA approach to fighting can start out with any foundation. At first BL used Wing Chun. But one may start anywhere. This makes for a more expansive market. Who knows what people will discover outside of the traditional fighting systems. BL’s excitement and passion can now be understood as the posdibilities are endless.
Hey and bless you all! How are you? I hope fine. I will offer a little friendly weigh-in on this matter. Before I indulge, I honorably give credit to whom it is due. Bruce Lee, was a prolific Martial Artist. As such, when one is so good at something, bragging within moderation is ok as being so good is, simply put, powerful. …Power that even the possessor cannot resist. In the words of Chuck Norris, Bruce Lee was not a fighter but an actor. The reasons given for this appeals to me and is quite substantiated in this matter by BL’s character. Any actor would employ PR in order to save face over any scandal which is what BL has done. To indulge and as much as I have and still like BL (everyone does as the media has done well to showcase him as being the greatest Martial Artist of his time), I must regrettably say that BL lost the bout with WJM on every count. What’s more, BL ensured his own defeat by his very words. He claimed that he can beat any man in the world in under 60 seconds (can that be why BL’s camp insisted on a 3-minute victory? Hmmmm). Right there, if he fails to deliver on any of those points (which he did on all with WJM) he lost. So his own words of arrogance destroyed him. He did not beat WJM at all and most certainly not under 60 seconds. To his credit, I vouch that he issued such a challenge more out of the high standard he held his skill to rather than mere arrogance. As an actor BL is really an idea pitched, one of triumph of the human spirit in pioneering, in going where no one has gone before,…in innovation. BL was the peoples’ hero, the iconoclast destroying traditional systems and coming out with free form. But did he really, or was this just the idea he embodied that everyone fell in love with? After all, he drew all of his art’s material from the traditional systems he berated, taking what he deemed useful and discarding the rest. It begs the question how much of or what of his work was original? Even anything “original” only was so because of the pressure to produce originality against the traditional systems thereby, still being a product of them. So we were taken with the hype, the idea, and worshipped BL as our hero. Has he done incredible stuff? No doubt. But he owes any and all credit to the traditional systems he berated as they are the very things he honed, trained, and acclimated against giving him his edge…his art. They provided his advancememt material. I say this because he was being a real jerk in disrespecting the traditional systems that birthed him. That was wrong of him and that is also why he was justly challenged and beat. Wisdom teaches that pride goes before the fall. It is easy to go point by point and show clearly how BL lost but that won’t be necessary. Also, I wish not to detract from the immortalization most have him in. Suffice it to say BL was a jerk in character but a prolific one in skill.
“Articles of martial arts are meant to be written without bias…”
I don’t see bias in this article. I see analysis of facts and a subsequent conclusion. So maybe we need to define “bias”.
Without going into the detailed definition, Webster defines “bias” as “prejudice” or “unreasoned judgment”.
I see no evidence of prejudice in the article. It’s a description of an event based on the conflicting opinions of the witnesses present.
The only “judgment” I see is the author’s oppinion based on his analysis of the statements of the witnesses and the conduct of the principals after the event. In any book, that qualifies as a reasoned judgment.
Therefore, if we are to be fair, there IS NO bias in the article.
Now, that doesn’t mean that one has to agree with the conclusion. Some may agree, some may not and some might not even care. But the fact that someone does not agree with the reasoned judgment of the author does not mean the article is biased. It just means that someone doesn’t agree… period.
So before we start calling articles “biased”, let’s make sure we understand the meaning of the word and that we have analyzed the article’s content correctly.
Just an observation to keep us all focused. 🙂
keron says:
The author was very bias it possible to be a draw match or Wong Jack man was really running in d fight
Blessings to all. Keron, you just totally ignored the points Angelo made, huh? Actually, you are ignoring the English grammatic authority, the dictionary, as to the term “bias.” How about if BL drawed, he lost? A draw for BL is a loss as BL, as the claimant, claimed to beat anyone in the world in undet 60 seconds. Failure to deliver on that claim means he lost. In the case of WJM, he not only DID NOT beat him, but most certainly went over 60 seconds in his ATTEMPT at beating him.
Johnny Moore says:
Listen bruce never lost a fight he changed because he wanted his own style something no one had wong jack did run like a coward bruce was way to fast for anybody ask chuck norris he knows. Why was bruce killed? Because he was untameable by his race his people. #baddestmanontheplanetatonetime RIP BRUCE LEE
why would you publicly invite someone to a fight if you already was humiliated by them… You. Wouldn’t… By the same token why wouldn’t you except a public fight if you already beat somebody and Bruce didn’t… These are the things that we know
Chuck Norris did an interview where he implied that he could beat Bruce Lee so go ahead and ask him … also there are formal accounts that Wong had Lee in a headlock but chose not to strike or use his kicks. That says a lot
Blessings to all. Johnny Moore, actually, BL did lose the fight with WJM by not beating WJM. By any credible account (not including Linda Lee’s as she already shown herself to be uncredible), BL failed to deliver what he claimed which, to him and to the world is his losing. There is no draw if I say I can be anyone and fail to do so. Even if that person did not manage to land so much as one hit, if I fail to, as the claimant deliver what I claim, I lost, disqualified by my own words. Even if we were to take Linda Lee’s uncredible account into bearance, BL still lost as his claim was to be able to lick anyone in 60 seconds. Linda Lee’s account has him “beating” WJM in 3 minutes.
Blessing to all. Very well-put Angelo!
voldo2006 says:
lol…no he didn’t lose. I mean if he did….why was he still able to teach chinese martial arts to non-chinese students? Actually, this was one of his “Oh my god” moments…..because after this fight, he started to question the martial arts, which lead him to his philosophy. Discard what doesn’t work and apply what does.
Will Storer says:
The fight could not have been about that issue because Wong Jack Man himself was teaching non-Chinese at the time.
I’ve heard this, too. So both were teaching non-chinese, sounds like maybe it was just two roosters flexing their muscles.
so his style didnt work in the fight thats more than obvious
it may have meen a draw but he definately didnt win lolol.
Actually in the underground Chinese community you must pay homage and fees, whites weren’t the biggest issue, it was the fact that just like starting up a drug operation on someone’s turf without permission.. Bruce with his schools was doing the same thing but wasn’t paying taxes, so to speak…but the movies won’t tell you that..he wasnt just fighting the Chinese community, he was defying the mafia, and paid with his life.
Blessings to all. Ivan, very interesting take. I tend to believe you as it appears there is more that is not being let onto about “the why” of the challenge. But as Chin asked, it would be good if you could provide the source material for your statement. To me, whether you are able to or not, it is quite believeable as there are many missing elements and surprises to the telling of the whole matter.
the fight was not about teaching to non chinese mate read some more material
That is again coming only from bruce lee camp. Wong Jack Man student became first Caucasian to win a tournament in Taiwan. Does that sound like someone who cares for colour?
Blessings to all. Ruth, it is apparent that to the BL worshippers, BL is forever immortalized in their minds as this invincible superhuman. Nothing that is said or shown to the contrary matters to them as as we all can see, they are either outright ignoring the facts and really convincing reason arguments made, or glossing over them altogether. BL will go down in their minds as a god and that is final. There is no reality other than that that can be brought to bear concerning them. Let them worship him. BL was good at what he did. I unhesitantly credit that. But he was not the best Martial Artist despite the media’s casting him as such. From the moment of his cheating with his sleight-of-hand move of pretending to extend a hand in handshake gesture before the match only to tranform it into a spear in attempt at gouging out WMJ’s eyes, BL lost. No wonder WMJ’s people tried to stop the fight as BL had murderous death match intent that no one else was agreed to. Not only does it shows him as a dishonest cheat and even dangerous murderer having no regard for the most sacred thing on earth–human life–but also a desperate loser, employing whatever means even cheating and fighting dirty, in order to attempt to “prove his being the greatest.” That says a lot of bad things about his character right then and there. But then again, what can be expected from a braggart lavking character dealing skillfully in the destructive power of violence (and not self-defense violence either, but self-asserted violence behind the excuse of a contest). Just like in the Wild West gunfights, anyone that indulged in such contests that resulted in serious injury or death was using such contests as excuse to murder (except in the unavoidable instances where they were forced to defend themselves in clear cases of self-defense). There were many other ways people could harmlessly show who was faster on the draw than to result to death matches or serious injury in a contest. The same here. With all of BL’s amazing speed, strength, and other demonstrations, he could have easily allowed that to be enough to suffice his claims to being the best at what he did. And if he felt he needed to demonstrate in a match, he could have been a good sport about it (like WMJ did) and not hurt anyone. After all, part of what would make someone very good or the best, is their having complete control of their lethal and destructive power much like a Karate instructor teaching their students have. They do not maim or kill them. Granted they may get a little roughed up but that is all. But in horrible sportsmanship where a contestant seriously hurts or kills another in a contest as Bruce Lee did to most of his opponents, it shows that he was using the contest as excuse to hurt and kill, which no doubt is something that was really in his heart to do, being someone steeped in violence (and not for self-defense purposes as claimed either). It also shows that if a person cannot control their such great destructive power so that they cannot not hurt or kill someone, they are not a good fighter especially when it comes to Martial Art philosophy which has emotional control in fighting as one of its tenets. How much self-defense does one need? A lifetime of study worth? Who could be after someone meaning them that much harm to warrant a man’s lifetime of study and training worth of “self-defense?” No. It was an excuse for having a narcissistic obsession for violence. That is what Martial Arts and other lethal professional training is for bad-charactered people. These trainings, for them, are outlets to be the destructive and violent people they really are and love being. …The sadists they are. All while hiding behind the excuse of “self-defense” or “professional athletic training.” And if they happen to be talented or exceptionally good at meting out violence, then they are further absolved of being viewed as the monsters they are.
Blessings to all. From the moment of BL’s cheating with his sleight-of-hand move of pretending to extend a hand in handshake gesture before the match only to tranform it into a spear in attempt at gouging out WMJ’s eyes, BL lost because that handshake gesture before a match was to conceed good sportsmanship; was pretty much both contestants saying that they adhere to being good sports in not exuding excessive violence with intent to seriously hurt or kill each other. BL was like “F-that!” This is why he did not shake hands because he meant bad sportsmanship. He meant the diametric opposite to what the good sportmanship gesture signified–to maim and kill. He even said as much in no uncertain terms to WJM. WJM was ambushed and ran, not as a coward as BL worshippers propose, but as a savior of both he and BL as he not only parried (not ran) to prevent his loss of life but also from having to have to take BL’s as well. WMJ was faced with the most demanding task task and on very short notice of being both of their saviors and still came out the bigger and better person of the two. Can one imagine having to do that as well as wear being viewed a coward for running? All in all, this is why good character matters so much as in being extremely skilled and powerful in violence without character equates to being a monster. A sadists. Think of bullies in the world. You do not get to be any more monstrous or sadistic than that. Furthermore, WMJ’s ability to parry BL’s onslaughts speaks volumes of WMJ’s great fighting ability all by itself, even if he did not land one blow on BL as the greatest defense is the best offense. Parrying is not “running” as mere running would have exposed WMJ’s unprotected back to BL, whoch would have been sure death considering BL’s striking force. Parrying, on the other habd, is just as much a part of fighting as attacking is as it is a form of defense just as blocking a punch or kick or head-butt is. Defending against an extraordinarily skilled fighter (which is what BL was) is very hard and demanding work. In fact, it is easier to attack than to defend effectively against an astronomically skilled fighter. To survive any amount of time unscathed in a match with someone boasted as having off-the-charts speed and phenomenal strength and skill, to be able to effectively parry such an attacker’s skill-set, shows the defender to be the better fighter without even needing to land a blow. This is so because not only is it harder work to defend agaunst an extraordinary fighter, but it requires one to be the more intelligent fighter having greater hand/body to brain coordination.
Consider Floyd Mayweather fights for example. From the position of withstanding not only anything a highly skilled fighter has but all of what a highly skilled fighter has, allows the defender to easily be able to now effectively pick off the discouraged, demoralized, and desperate opponent with impunity, which is what WMJ did as he had opprtunity to end BL on a number of ocassions. Effectively withstanding all that a highly skilled attacker has does two things: 1. it demoralizes and discourages them.
2. It winds them. We see both occurring with BL as the fight was stopped on account of BL’s being winded. We also see BL demoralized and discouraged so much that he not only changed his style as an immediate result of the fight, but asked WMJ’s Sensei to teach him Norther Shaolin as well. And ultimately, BL turned down a public rematch. That is how demoralized and discouraged BL was. I am surprised that he didn’t commit suicide, with the narcissist losing (but he didn’t need to commit suicide as rumor has it that WMJ issued BL a deathblow to the back of the head that caused BL’s cerebral edema he later died from). “Unscathed” as the cut under WMJ’s eye from BL’s before match cheat does not count as it was not an attack within the match (as it was before it) and it was a cheat. So yes, WMJ was totally unscathed in his match with said-to-be the fastest attacker in the world.
Jackson-Farnell in regards to your comment
‘That is what Martial Arts and other lethal professional training is for bad-charactered people. These trainings, for them, are outlets to be the destructive and violent people they really are and love being. …The sadists they are.’
You do realise by even just taking that one paragraph, you are demonstrating a profound ignorance. It’s one of the most self-defeating comments I’ve read in a long while.
Do you make a habit of sweeping over generalisations and do you realise that you come across as someone with very little knowledge of Bruce Lee and Martial Arts, to say nothing your lack of self-awareness.
I’m not sure what you are seeking but I’m sure you won’t find it by denigrating dead people. I suppose the one consolation you have is the safety of knowing they aren’t around to prove how utterly wrong you.
Blessings to all. Voldo2006 haven’t you gotten it from the article? That the challenge was not even over teaching non-Asians Martial Arts? Linda Lee asserted that incorrectly, which the article writer pointed out. All the schools including WJM’s had white students. The challenge was over BL’s disrespectful denigration of the traditional Martial Art systems and BL’s arrogance. Attention to detail is very important when one wishes to offer comment.
Blessings to all. And voldo2006, as far as your statement of if BL lost, why was he still able to teach or have schools open, ask the question what’s stopping him? Surely not his word as his word already proved noncredible in his breaking his agreement to silence in the match. He did not uphold his agreed word to stay silent about the match and no one could make him, punish for not doing, or enforce his doing so. Likewise with the teaching or school issue upon losing. He could very well just violate that term as he did the term of silence, and go on teaching with school open and who could enforce things?
That is a well known myth. Bruce issued the challenge that WJM answered. That myth isnt even logical, why would Bruce agree and who was going to stop him from teaching whoever he wanted.
Anil John says:
I agree with the author of this article. To substantiate the opinion, Bruce Lee in fact didn’t agree to a challenge from Wong Jack Man for a second public fight. Bruce Lee never responded to that call. That somewhat tells the truth. I feel Bruce Lee was unable to beat Wong Jack Man.
Andy Yu says:
Wong jack man is a pussy who was on the defensive for 20 mins , bruce lee was 300% aggresive , bruce lee knew he had win the fight , and what a typical loser reaction to ask a rematch xD
Everyone please forget about this 20 minute nonsense. Neither Bruce nor Wong could fight for twenty minutes non-stop. This was a street type fight that could only have lasted several minutes.
pcuzz says:
While I question the 20 min also it is possible for 2 young men in good shape to fight for 20 min. Both would tire and slow down and neither would have an advantage.
Please try not to confuse a ‘real’ fight with a training session or sparring. Also your version of a gradual slow down doesn’t fit with any witness account. Linda’s reported duration fits with reality, the Wong supporters propaganda duration is a work of fiction as any fighter should know. The witness accounts report an explosive start to this fight, not a paced beginning, which further fits the shorter duration.
@David Williamson
Linda was not a trained fighter and she had the most to gain from the overblown Bruce Lee legend to this day. She was a most biased source. We can safely discard her account as a credible source.
“an explosive start to this fight, not a paced beginning, which further fits the shorter duration” – so after an explosive start, if both sides’ attacks do not gain much purchase, it’s not possible that both sides gradually slow down? You seem to assume because Lee was raring to go at the start he would quickly win regardless of the situation. It is entirely possible for both sides to eventually tire out.
The witnesses reported an explosive start and by the end both fighters were gassed, even Bruce’s own account was that he was exhausted.
Willow Palm says:
Bruce acted like a typical loser by changing his style and slamming Wing Chun saying it was “insufficient”. Who would do that after they won? Which fighter in the history of sports fighting has ever done that? Bruce was an angry punk who would publicly lie to make himself look like a hero.
Knock Out says:
It’s called evolving. Martial artists who do not know how to grow beyond their roots and improve their techniques are in for a rude awakening. That’s why a well rounded martial artists will learn how to incorporate better punching, better kicking, better ground game, better strength conditioning, etc to improve their chances of winning a fight. And to answer your question there are plenty of fighters who change their style to improve their odds.
You would not say that to his face pussy boy
Bruce was already an actor – with a career, family and kid. I think it makes no sense to respond to that lowbrow call for another fight – what if Wong himself wanted to get some attention?
I used to box, spar and mix it up alot on the streets – but once I got a great job and got married, I didn’t want to do those things anymore, for a ton of reasons other than being “afraid”.
Sonny Crockett says:
The reason that Bruce won this “fight” is very clear. With no disrespect to Wong Jack Man, Linda Cadwell and others who were there paint a more realistic picture. The “fight” was probably over very quickly (3 minutes seems about right) and not the 25 minutes people from WJM have stated. Also, Bruce DID teach who he wanted, where he wanted and when he wanted, another example of why Bruce won this tussle. What’s good to remember, according to examples given by BOTH sides, WJM asked for a rematch. Winners NEVER as for rematches.
you must be really stupid mate and life must look really hard to you.
if sb says publicly that he beat you when there was an actual draw wouldnt you tell him “come on you piece of shit let have rematch publicly this time”
and the other person wouldnt answer cause he wouldnt want to lose his fame with a draw.
got it dummy?
Good point about winners never ask for rematch.
Tizzle says:
You can all stop with the, “Winners don’t say this,” and “Losers would do that,” BS, because it’s just that…BS. There are plenty of reasons that a Winner/Loser acts or says what they do after the outcome, and none of those things are set in stone.
As an arrogant person myself, though not in street fighting, it is totally plausable that Lee changed his fighting style because he didn’t win like he thought he should have. Weather that means 3 minutes, 20 minutes, win, or loss is irrelavent. It didn’t go as planned, so he must improve, or change.
I like Bruce Lee. I believe he is the best in my lifetime….I would like to believe that the best never loses, but I will never believe that the “Best,” are the Best in EVERY contest. Ever heard the phrase, “On any given Sunday…?”
For these reasons, I am completely comfortable in the belief that this match was a draw…though if I was to write an article about it, I would probably be bias toward the Lee side.
If you read “Showdown in Oakland” the question arises as to whether Linda herself was even in the room. She was 19 and pregnant. In an interview before he died George Lee (who was there) said that Bruce told him to stay outside the room with Linda because he was worried about her safety.
WJM requested a PUBLIC rematch, because he felt Bruce was lying about the match. It was more like you are stating you beat me let us do this in public for everyone to see.
In correct Wong Jack Man asked for a public rematch. If he was truly beaten to demoralization why ask for a public rematch to be embarrassed again? As for winners never asking for a rematch it was more that he was claiming Bruce was lying so let us do this in public so every one can know who the better man is.
Only Linda is the one who claims the fight happened because bruce was teaching caucasians. But Wong jack man also taught caucasian students amlnd his student was first Caucasian to win a martial arts tournament at taiwan. Please get your facts straight. This fight happened for very no good reason other then arrogance on both sides.
GSP defeated BJ Penn in the UFC and there was a controversy over him having vaseline on his body so GSP offered a rematch.
Who wins a street fight and gives a rematch unless forced to if i whoop u in a fight i have no desire to fight u again while if u lose a fight u want a rematch immediately especially if it was close the loser wants a rematch bruce knew he one so y fight again unless forced to by conflict
This wasnt a steet fight. It was a pre arranged challenge.
he didn’t ask for a rematch why are you saying that… He said that if Bruce’s side did not agree with his account of the fight then he would be more than happy to fight again… That’s not really a rematch as a call to the truth
greg manwaring says:
A couple of facts here are wrong.
1. Bruce was NOT a member of Junction Street Tigers. Ronald Kho, a member of the Tigers, knew Bruce from school and of course the Junction Street area, but Bruce wasn’t in their gang.
2. Bruce did NOT abandon everything about Ving Tsun. First of all, it was in his neural system, then secondly you can see in videos with James Coburn in ’70 or ’71 him rolling hands and working on lop sau with Coburn.
Nice points. Have a great work out! Al
MysticNinjajay says:
All of the claims supporting Wong Jack Man as the victor or at least not the loser of this fight come from an article titled “Bruce Lee’s toughest fight” written by Michael Dorgan and published in Official Karate magazine. I believe Bruce Lee and Linda’s account of what happened for the following reasons.
1. Bruce Lee’s account is more realistic
– This fight was said to be a no rules challenge match between Traditional Martial Artists. Fights of this nature tend to be chaotic and short. 3 minutes sounds like a very realistic time period for this fight to occur. It’s long enough for a fighter who doesn’t do a lot of cardio training to be exhausted after extended explosive movement and short enough to believe that the fight ended in a decisive climax. Additionally Bruce acknowledges that the fight didn’t go smoothly as he hurt his hands pounding the back of Wong’s head. Anyone familiar with the chain punches of Wing Chun should know that this method of rapid punching hitting the wrong target can backfire on you.
2. Wong Jack Man’s account is not realistic
– Wong’s claim of the fight lasting 20-25 minutes is extremely long. We’re talking a no-holds barred fight with no referee and no breaks between Martial Artists who do not have the cardio conditioning of professional fighters lasting the length of a championship MMA fight. That’s simply too long. They would be bloodied, battered and exhausted if they were even half way decent brawlers. I simply do not believe that Wong Jack Man artfully dodged and parried Bruce Lee for 20-25 minutes and then came out of the fight virtually unscathed. The Dorgan article also claims that Wong avoided using kicks because he believed them to be too deadly. That’s nonsense. How many kicks in professional fights have resulted in death? Does anyone honestly believe that Wong Jack Man possessed deadly Kung Fu kicks that could kill Bruce Lee if he didn’t restrain himself? Such talk is something someone who doesn’t have much real fighting experience would say.
3. Bruce Lee spoke publicly about the fight as the clear victor
– In addition to having a more realistic account of the fight Bruce Lee proudly claimed in an interview that he defeated a Kung Fu cat in San Francisco which most agree was a reference to the fight with Wong Jack Man. Now if you lost a fight would you go around lying telling people you won when there are eye witnesses that could dispute your claim and expose you? Bruce Lee struck me as a very intelligent man. Surely he would not have done something so foolish that the average person, never mind a serious Martial Artist would not do. On the other hand the outcome of this fight was supposed to be a secret. Bruce Lee broke the code of secrecy. I find it more believable that Wong Jack Man lost the fight and feeling humiliated decided to dispute Bruce’s account to save face. This is something a sore loser of a fight would do.
4. Wong Jack Man has been very quiet about the fight since it happened
– I’ve looked around and I have not seen a single published interview or video featuring Wong Jack Man giving his side of what happened. After all of these years the only people that seem to be defending Wong are his students and friends such as the Dorgan article and the book Showdown in Oakland. Where is Wong Jack Man’s personal account of what happened? Is he really that private of a man that he would not speak out about this? Does he care that little about his reputation? For crying out loud Bruce Lee’s daughter Shannon gave a video interview that was front page news on Yahoo yesterday repeating her parents account of how her daddy bested the racist and cowardly Wong Jack Man fighting for the right to teach other races Chinese Martial Arts. The video even had Wong’s picture as a young man in it! Yet I’m supposed to believe this life-long committed Martial Artist has so little regard for himself that he would not give a public interview to at least set the record straight? If there is a truth to be told have the courage to tell it! Or maybe he really did lose and he has made peace with it. That’s more believable.
5. No evidence has been produced of Wong Jack Man’s request for a rematch
– They say that Bruce Lee was a hot head who never backed down from a challenge which is how he got involved with this fight in the first place. I can tell that Bruce was a proud man with an ego. The Dorgan article claims that Wong Jack Man disputed Bruce Lee’s account of the fight after hearing about his public interview and issued another challenge for a public rematch in San Francisco’s Chinese language Chinese Pacific Weekly. I have just one problem with that claim. Where is the documentation? This fight is supposed to be the fight that inspired Bruce Lee to develop Jeet Kune Do which lead to his discovery as an actor and helped revolutionize and popularize Martial Arts world wide. Surely some historians would be interested in this paper and could produce it if it actually existed. I’ve seen no evidence of its existence and I’ve looked around. This would lend more credibility to Wong’s claim but mysteriously the document has never been produced.
I think that Bruce Lee won this fight. I think that it happened exactly as he and his wife said it did. Now before one accepts Bruce’s account one may ask why Bruce Lee would decide to change his training methods if he was the clear victor. That’s simple. He was a perfectionist. He says he won but he also says he was surprisingly winded and his techniques did not work as effectively as he expected them to. So he decided to improve himself as a Martial Artist with a rigorous strength and conditioning regimen and learn new techniques to improve his fighting skills. He came to the realization that styles were limited and the true way was to have no way.
The best fighter in Bruce’s eyes was a Martial Artist who could adapt on any style of fighting. He was formless, shapeless…like water. He used only what was useful and stripped away the inessentials. Bruce’s Jeet Kune Do as been called Scientific Street Fighting because it’s based on what he learned from real fights and what he gathered from the knowledge of the best masters in history around the world. It’s this perfectionist mindset that lead to Bruce Lee obsessively improving himself and building a reputation as a great teacher and Martial Artist, one who shared his talent with the world and changed the perception of Martial Arts forever.
I would pay good money to see this fight but in truth I don’t need to see it. I’m confident that the account of Bruce’s victory is true and one has to consider what came out of it. The legend of Bruce Lee will continue to grow while Wong Jack Man remains in obscurity. A Martial Artist who while likely talented in his own right is only known as the man who lost a fight to a legend. It would indeed be hard to challenge that legend. I don’t think Wong Jack Man should chase a ghost. The movies, books and documentaries are too powerful for Wong to ever debunk a myth but he could at least grace us with one video interview if indeed his account of the story is the real truth.
Nice points, valid opinion. I would say that I never read the article referenced in the beginning. Have a great work out! Al
drunkentaoist says:
“Anyone familiar with the chain punches of Wing Chun should know that this method of rapid punching hitting the wrong target can backfire on you.”
Funny, I’m familiar with chain punches since they’re actually in some other Chinese martial arts, and it never seemed to me that there were any more “wrong” targets than with western boxing-style punching. Anywhere on the head is especially not considered “wrong” to hit, especially when that’s where you’re usually aiming with that kind of punching anyway. Punching someone in the back of the head is more likely to lead to internal brain injury and it’s not allowed in MMA. So it never made sense to me that punching in the back of the head can be any worse for your fists than the face which generally has harder bones than the thinner back of the skull. That just doesn’t make sense as a critique of chain punching.
“We’re talking a no-holds barred fight with no referee and no breaks between Martial Artists who do not have the cardio conditioning of professional fighters lasting the length of a championship MMA fight.”
You’re assuming that neither fighter had the cardio conditioning that pro fighters have so it couldn’t have lasted that long but you’re selling them out as inferior to a typical mma fighter when there’s no evidence for that at all. Wong Jack Man was actually a grandmaster of Northern Shaolin which is all about lengthy forms with a great deal of kicking and almost acrobatic moves and Bruce Lee was no slouch either. Both men had fighting experience with other martial artists who trained to fight every day.
“Bruce Lee broke the code of secrecy. I find it more believable that Wong Jack Man lost the fight and feeling humiliated decided to dispute Bruce’s account to save face. This is something a sore loser of a fight would do.”
Neither Bruce Lee nor Wong Jack Man publicly spoke about the fight until somebody made up a story about it and published it in the Chinese Pacific Weekly. The article said that they fought over the love of a woman with Wong beating him up. Angry, and thinking this story possibly came from Wong, Bruce gave an interview in which he, let’s say, embellished what actually happened to make it seem like he was the winner (the end of the fight in this account actually doesn’t fully line up with Linda’s). If you know what kind of guy Bruce was, and if you just read what his buddies in Hong Kong said about him, it totally makes sense that he would do this. He would never admit to losing a fight, nor would he ever say he didn’t win a fight somehow. When Wong published his version Bruce never publicly said anything about it ever again and actually had another interaction with Wong as is all laid out in the only book dedicated to the subject, “Showdown in Oakland: The Story Behind the Wong Jack Man – Bruce Lee Fight” (http://www.amazon.com/Showdown-Oakland-Story-Behind-Bruce-ebook/dp/B00AR0KE1I). All of the articles are in that book.
“For crying out loud Bruce Lee’s daughter Shannon gave a video interview that was front page news on Yahoo yesterday repeating her parents account of how her daddy bested the racist and cowardly Wong Jack Man fighting for the right to teach other races Chinese Martial Arts. The video even had Wong’s picture as a young man in it! Yet I’m supposed to believe this life-long committed Martial Artist has so little regard for himself that he would not give a public interview to at least set the record straight?”
It was Linda who told Shannon this, not Bruce, and Wong taught many non-Chinese in his time, one of whom (Peter Ralston) went to Taiwan and won a full-contact championship. Wong tried suing over the way he was portrayed in the 1980’s. In the end being that much in the public eye isn’t something that he seems to want and he would only have to constantly combat people who want to put him down for Bruce’s sake anyway.
There is evidence. Once again, it’s in Rick Wing’s book (http://www.amazon.com/Showdown-Oakland-Story-Behind-Bruce-ebook/dp/B00AR0KE1I). All of the articles are in there. Copies of them were obtained in San Francisco and they are fully translated.
“Now before one accepts Bruce’s account one may ask why Bruce Lee would decide to change his training methods if he was the clear victor. That’s simple. He was a perfectionist. He says he won but he also says he was surprisingly winded and his techniques did not work as effectively as he expected them to.”
By Linda’s own account it doesn’t seem to be just because he was a perfectionist. She said that after the fight Bruce was sitting on the back porch all depressed with his head in his hands. That’s not the way a winner would act at all but especially a winner against a grandmaster. What most people don’t realize is that for Bruce to have beaten someone like Sifu Wong would have been a big deal in Chinatown and most people who knew about the incident in Chinatown didn’t believe that Bruce won. Ming Lum said the only injury he saw on Wong was a scratch above his eye. Grandmaster Ming Lum was Bruce’s friend and if he were going to lie for someone it would have just as likely been for Bruce since he promoted him at the time. Linda Lee says Bruce pounded Wong into a state of demoralization. There seems to be a big discrepancy there and there’s evidence to suggest that she wasn’t even in the room or she could only catch glimpses behind a door (George Lee said in an interview with the Contra Costa Time that Linda “stayed outside” with him because Bruce didn’t want her in the room).
-Now if you lost a fight would you go around lying telling people you won when there are eye witnesses that could dispute your claim and expose you?
Happens more often in martial arts circles, specially in the pre internet days. Even today there are a lot of reputations from the past built of novelised accounts.
The great shaolin temple as the seat all martial arts comes from nineteenth century and early twentieth century novels of wuxia.
There is however some very nice codes in the East with less followers these days – of making a gentleman’s deal and sticking to it. If something like that happened and one of them broke it the other might still follow the deal and not expose it.
This doesn’t discount that Bruce Lee had a fantastic physique, skill, and speed, but he was always a performer. I am more inclined to believe that what happened was re-engineered back by the Lee’s. Linda is well known for her patchy memory and marketing skills as the often quoted reason “the old traditional sinocentric masters would not teach the white man” shows even here
you sound so right though you are soo wrong.
1. Lee was all about affectiveness in real fight challenges:
i would say 3 minutes is effective enough IF it lasted that much
SO no need of change of methods. in his interview he said it wasnt as effective that rules out the 3 min fight.
2. when fighting time seems like ages, so neither 25 minutes is reallistic. lets say it was 10minutes…..well so much ego from both fighters…. i wouldnt accept the result in a ten minute fight and i dont even have half the ego of these men. so it should have been around 15-20minutes.
3. if you were Lee and was a draw would you respond ? how could you fight with confidence when you have started doubting about your art? and confidence most of the times means winning while doubt means definitely loss.
4. he decided to be formless and adaptive after he found out wing chun is not as effective, since up to then he was religiously practising it.
5. being a perfectionist does not say anything about this fight.
6. saying that wing chun is not as effective that means clearly that you get exhausted before you manage a knock out which strengthens the assumption that the fight took much longer.
7. wong jack man honored the agreement while Lee not accepting a possible draw arrogantly spread rumours to keep his fame. and he had a lot at stake.
8. if wong jack has lost in such ridiculous way there wasnt goint to be any request for a public rematch ( you say that is not documented, well it is documented everywhere, unless you have an original article from that era that says differently).
9. you are telling me that you go challenging bruce lee and you give up in two minutes and you run and get beaten up on the 3rd minute? if you say that not only you are not familiar with saolin art (i am not saying i am an expert but i did my fair share of studying).
10. you may be right though about the prohibition of shaolin kicks but lets see: Wong kept his promise saying nothing about the fight until he was challenged so he may have kept a promise to a sifu if he was asked. well sometimes even sifu grow to become stupid old men and they dont realize how mean your opponent (Lee) may be.
11. if you havent seen Wong saying anything about this fight then you didnt search well enough.
12. that is sooo stupid “”Bruce Lee’s daughter Shannon gave a video interview that was front page news on Yahoo yesterday repeating her parents account of how her daddy bested the racist and cowardly Wong Jack Man fighting for the right to teach other races”…. the fight was not about that WOng had students other than chinese and that is well documented if you search. of course she will defend her father against the big bad wolf terrible man.
and i conclude you are stupid
Superb argument and you also understood well the essense of Bruce Lee’s philosophy.
Vanguard says:
After reading all the comments and theories, I tend to agree more with MysticNinjajay. Ive changed the way I do things in life, especially when Ive succeeded at something I always try to improve on the manner on which I did those things. It’s compulsive really.
Great ideas all around though. Thanks for everyone sharing.
Wong Jack Man knows that at this point, he cannot overcome the legendary staus Bruce Lee has obtained. The fact that he does not respond shows security to me. He did respond Wong Jack Man challenged Bruce Lee to a PUBLIC battle for all to see after Bruce Lee broke the confidentiality agreement. Bruce Lee never accepted this challenge. Also another note is has been said that Bruce sought out Wong Jack Man’s instructor after the fight. Take from that what you will…The little that Wong Jack Man states concerning the fight is that who won to him at this point is not as important as to why they battled. He wishes that Bruce’s supporters would stop labeling him a racist. The truth is that Wong Jack Man has trained non-oriental and yes Caucasian world champions. Finally he states that he believes the changes Bruce made in creating Jeet Kune Do may have attributed to his death. He criticizes Bruce Lee for trying to recreate something that was created over thousands of years. Another article on the fight is below:
http://www.jadedragonalaska.com/bruce-lees-lost-fight.php
Wong Jack Man knows that at this point, he cannot overcome the legendary staus Bruce Lee has obtained. He did respond Wong Jack Man challenged Bruce Lee to a PUBLIC battle for all to see after Bruce Lee broke the confidentiality agreement. Bruce Lee never accepted this challenge. Also another note is has been said that Bruce sought out Wong Jack Man’s instructor after the fight. Take from that what you will…The little that Wong Jack Man states concerning the fight is that who won to him at this point is not as important as to why they battled. He wishes that Bruce’s supporters would stop labeling him a racist. The truth is that Wong Jack Man has trained non-oriental and yes Caucasian world champions. Finally he states that he believes the changes Bruce made in creating Jeet Kune Do may have attributed to his death. He criticizes Bruce Lee for trying to recreate something that was created over thousands of years. More article on the fight is below:
http://www.lakungfu.com/sifujackmanwong.html
I love you man, for this reply.
You are assuming that everyone likes to brag about winning… My father himself will not talk about the men that he beat up… So all those points you try to put forward I think Are invalid ..someone who is an egotist like Lee would definitely go for the first punch in case someone else talked first … fighters all the time go around saying that they won fights when they lost aside from being knocked out it’s quite easy to walk around claiming you won! MMA and boxing do it all the time
Some people don’t need the validation from people who weren’t there I don’t know why everyone feels like he lost because he didn’t say anything about it
r williams says:
I believe that I understand that Wong Jack Man’s student Rick Wing is merely trying to get to the facts as best as possible and change the public’s perception of WJM. As for Bruce Lee, I’m not sure if the so-called fight ultimately led to the creation of Jeet Kune Do. I’ve had the impression that Lee was already progessing in that direction prior to the fight. For instance, he had probably already begun working on a way to quickly close the gap between two points. And he did …not completely abandon his Wing Chun training. There are some individuals that believe that there is no way that the fight could have lasted twenty minutes or more. If it did, then maybe there were a lot of stops and starts during the match. Or it may not have actually been a fight at all. It seems obvious that BL and WJM had/have different perspectives as it relates to the martial arts, and as it relates to fighting. Lee probably believed that he was not wrong for opening the match with a strike prior to completing any form of pre-fight rituals. If it was indeed a fight then one should be prepared for an attack to occur at anytime. Wong Jack Man on the other hand probably wanted some sort of rules to be in place beforehand for such an encounter to occur. It is almost like yin and yang comparing these two men. Lee probably became unusually winded because Wong may have simply not given him enough to work with. Which may have caused Lee to have to work harder than he normally would have to. Also, the two may have held back to some degree due to respect for each other and their fellow human beings.
The most sensible comment here …. people think Bruce Lee was God… And believe his account of the story well Chuck Norris implied that he beat Bruce so who do you believe ? Why would Chuck Norris lie… then nobody will ever no …all I know is that Bruce and his wife had more to gain by being the victor
Although Linda has provided different versions of the fight, her recollection of how long it lasted is the more believable. This was essentially a street fight, no rules, no rest breaks and two to three minutes is a more realistic duration for a ‘real’ fight. It’s impossible to say who won for certain but the claims of a twenty minute duration for me casts the biggest doubt. MMA fighters and Professional boxers need months of preparation to build stamina to last the duration of a fight and even they are catching their breath after the first round, whilst taking a break and usually a drink too. It would be impossible for either of these two fighters, neither at the peak in terms of physical condition, to fight continuously for twenty minutes, unless they spent long periods doing nothing, which was clearly not reported by any witnesses. The fact that Bruce realised that he wasn’t physically prepared to fight over an extended period, also makes the Lee version the more plausible. I don’t think there will ever be definitive proof one way or the other, regarding the victor and it’s clear that both developed into better fighters later, so either way, neither man was at his best.
“”””The fact that Bruce realised that he wasn’t physically prepared to fight over an extended period””””.
you proved it yourself mate. if he said he wasnt prepared for an extended period this only mean one thing that the fight was extended so this rules out the 3 minutes.
I think you’ve missed the point.
3 minutes is one round of boxing. I guess he just got gassed really easily? Who completely changes their views on fighting because they had to run after somebody? Let’s face it, he lied. We’ve all known people like him.
Have you tried doing three minutes of full on fighting without getting gassed? Have you even tried shadow boxing full on for three minutes without stopping?
TheKingOfRuckus says:
This is an argument that never truly stops. I’m a big fan of Bruce Lee and greatly admire his work ethic and the lasting effect he’s had on not just the martial arts, but the world as a whole since his death. There is absolutely no doubt that he inspired people during his life and continues to do so over 40 years since his death. Even with that said I’m not sure just how much of his account I can believe.
He changed up his style for a reason, that much is sure.
There were never any pictures of him seriously hurt or bruised or anything like that, so we can at least surmise that Wong Jack Man didn’t land any devastating hits. Wong Jack Man was also not seriously injured, as evidenced by his arrival at work the day after the fight, so the same applies for Bruce Lee’s attacks on him. No one has ever said either opponent was straight up knocked out, so that’s out of the discussion.
Bruce Lee’s account is that he chased Wong Jack Man down then brought him to the floor and beat him into submission, but was severely winded afterwards. Wong Jack Man’s account is that the fight lasted for 20 to 25 minutes and he spent most of that time defending.
While Bruce’s account seems more feasible(if you have to sprint after or otherwise chase somebody for a few minutes you’ll be winded), you’re still left wondering why an otherwise sound victory would lead to him creating an all new style and closing down his schools for a time. Bruce Lee was by all accounts a perfectionist when it came to martial arts, so the idea of him looking at a fight he won and saying “I didn’t win fast enough. I was too tired/winded/whatever.”, getting behind the wheel of that and driving to the destination we now know as “Jeet Kune Do” is almost instantly believable for a lot of people, but at the same time it makes you question whether or not he “won” this fight so easily, or even at all.
It’s also kind of funny to picture some dude just turning tail and running mid fight, in a private setting in front of a small audience.
The thing with Wong Jack Man’s account is that it’s 20-25 minutes. This would also lead to both combatants being exhausted, but it just makes less sense that a fight would go on for so long unless they spent most of that time sizing each other up and unwilling to make the first attack, and THAT is thrown out the window when you factor in Lee’s opening finger jab. That set the pace right there, and it’s the one attack that both camps manage to agree on. Everything else is clouded by memory or tainted by bias.
There was also supposedly some issue with Wong Jack Man not using his kicks because they were too deadly or could otherwise cause severe and permanent damage. Others have said it already, but I’m not sure I believe that. Your opponent comes at you with a finger jab to your eyes and you retaliate by refusing to use some of your best attacks? It doesn’t make much sense, at least not to me when I look at it that way.
In a phone conversation with Daniel Lee, Bruce Lee referred to Wong Jack Man as a “bullshit artist”. The exact quote was:
“I have yet to lose one challenge, ever since I was in the United States. Wong Jack Man, and all these…bullshit artists. All of them!”
It’s important to note that Bruce didn’t know he was being recorded. If he had, he might have said worse about Wong Jack Man, been a bit less brash, or chose not to say anything. We can never know if this was boasting or substantiated fact from someone who knew firsthand.
At the end of the day, I think whatever really happened was more of a mix of both accounts. I don’t think Bruce Lee chased Wong Jack Man for 3 minutes and I don’t think Wong Jack Man played exceptional defense for 20 to 25 minutes. I think the battle ended in a draw, and that lead Bruce to reexamine his art.
It’s also pretty interesting that Wong Jack Man issued a public challenge for a rematch that went unanswered by Lee. Nothing from Lee, after he closed down his schools and started to rework his style of fighting. Nothing from a man who was known for being overly cocky and brash, someone who would jump at even the slightest provocation.
The obvious conclusion is that Lee didn’t beat him as soundly as he claimed he did in that Black Belt magazine interview and chose not to take his chances in a rematch on a public stage. However, you also have to remember that Lee was challenged all throughout his career up until his death, at random, and chose to walk away from most of those random challenges. When he didn’t, or couldn’t(as recounted by Bob Wall, Fred Krause and others in various interviews over the years), the challenger always got hurt. Every time, from random street fights to on the set of Enter the Dragon itself. If he won, maybe Lee decided that once was enough and to pour his focus into improving his art.
If he LOST, maybe Lee decided that once was enough, and to pour his focus into improving his art.
If the match was a DRAW…..you see where I’m going with this, right?
At the end of the day….fuck it :).
I agree with you, I too believe a fight lasting a few minutes is the more believable. I also don’t think that Bruce changing his style necessarily means he lost the fight, it just means that he wasn’t as good as he thought he was and that he realised his limitations. If he was gassed after a few minutes of fighting, which most people would be anyway, then it’s logical that you’d train to improve your cardio. If you couldn’t knock somebody out with your punches, you’d train to develop more power. Yes it’s unlikely that Bruce was entirely satisfied with his performance but nothing in the claims of Wong’s advocates proves that Lee lost this fight and much that they say seems to be fantasy.
1) As> you know Kick or Punch or Elbow Strike is just NOTHING if it lack the Power. While Everybody talks about kick/punch like this, like that, kick or punchwith power etc, but I am never Told or Read anywhere where to get that POWER from ? What exercises to perform to get> that power ? is it QI Energy or Chi Energy or Internal Energy ?
> how an ordinary person get acquire that power that sets him apart from other martial artists ?
> 2) Where does the power comes from ? as I see in videos that wing chun guys demonstrate Internal Energy by Pushing 10 people, and also 10 People Unable to push him back……
> 3) Can I hurt someone from a distance without touching by projecting energy ?
> 4) How to remove blockage in the flow of Energy in the body ?
> 5) How you rate Bruce Lee JKD as compare to Wing Chun ?
Phil Kwan says:
I tend to believe Bruce Lee`s story more than Wong Jack Man`s version. Before the fight, both sides agreed to a no-hold-barred, no referee, no rule match. It`s odd for Wong Jack Man`s to say “‘If he injures me, if he really hurts me, I’ll have to kill him.”. What did he expect ? Everyone came out no scratch like in a pillow fight ? This was essentially a death match, so for someone to make such comment is unconvincing. Both sides essentially wanted to hurt each other badly before the fight.
Secondly, Wong Jack Man wanted to indicate that he fought because a mutual friend set him up – The reason he showed up at Lee’s school that day, says Wong, is because a mutual acquaintance had hand-delivered a note from Lee inviting him to fight. I really think Wong Jack Man has discussed, contemplated, and scouted out Bruce Lee many times before decided to fight him. I believe Wong Jack Man and his friends decided to engage Bruce Lee to a fight rather than Bruce Lee sought him out from a crowd.
Thirdly, I believe Bruce Lee’s version that Wong Jack Man and Chinese Kung Fu experts in the area didn`t want Bruce to teach foreigners their secrets. It`s typical of Shaolin`s school of thought at the time.
With these points, I think Bruce Lee`s version is more believable.
drunk taoist says:
Before the fight both sides did NOT agree to a no-holds-barred fight. Wong Jack Man was the one trying to get Bruce Lee to not kick to the groin or go for the eyes. Bruce Lee was the one acting like it was a “death match” probably to intimidate Wong.
The mutual friend was David Chin and he was more of a friend to Wong than Bruce. Wong Jack Man didn’t do any scouting either. David Chin set up the fight and they met on the appointed day. That’s it.
Also, there were Caucasian guys learning from sifus in San Francisco at the time. Y.C. Wong and T.Y. Wong had white students at the time and they were members of the Suey Sing and Hop Sing tongs in the city. The tongs didn’t have a problem with that and neither did most of the other family associations in the city. The notion that the fight was over teaching non-Chinese originated solely from Linda Lee. It seems she thought it would make a great story and it’s helped her to make lots of money but it’s completely untrue. Bruce Lee never said that.
Hmarrs says:
I don’t generally comment. However as this issue means really sparks my interest probably as the one of the biggest Bruce Lee fans out there.
However as a fan I want to acknowledge who he is and not what myth and fantasy dictates.
So forever being a realist and always about facts.
This is an issue as mysterious as his death.
Which by the way you may want to look up information on Arsenic poising being a cause if it interest you.
It has been my experience.
That in situations such as this is that when neither story is true or both have such strong accounts that neither but yet both stories are true.
What do I mean by this is that no matter who tells a story there will always be a Bias whether it is true or not because truth is based on ones perception and they themselves may believe it to be true by their own interpretation and experience. If you don’t believe me watch any Boxing match and hear the accounts of both fighters and there is no more controversy then when there is no definitive winner.
So when neither side is accountable the truth must lie in the Middle.
First of all Bruce was not a traditionalist he may have been teaching Wing Chun but that doesn’t mean he was a traditionalist.
Not by any means so the “Breaking of the Silence” may have meant nothing to Bruce as he was not set in the old ways but was all about being progressive.I just don’t think he knew where he really wanted to go at this point. I think he at this point may have been trying to be progressive Wing Chun. As for Wong he may have very well keep “Vow of Silence” and true to the tradition of silence in such battles. The silence comes from the tradition of these battle tradition that Bruce did not hold himself accountable too.
Nothing teaches US MORE THEN DEFEAT. When one is victorious there is little to be learned you don’t fix what’s not broken yes you may perfect it but nothing expresses a mass overhaul stronger then defeat.
Am I saying that Bruce lost?…No I am not because even if he won in his mind he Lost.
Do I believe there was a “Form of Handshake” …no not at all.Do I believe there was a “Bow” absolutely. First off the Wong would have no interest in a handshake as being more traditional and tradition requires a Bow.Bruce not being a traditionalist would have Bowed just out of respect for the Art.
If anyone one would have offered a more modern handshake or tapping of hands would have been Bruce and I believe he had no interest to do so at all.
Do I believe Bruce jumped and leaped out with an eye jam?…No not at all.This is in contrast to Bruce both before “Jeet Kun Do” and after. First of Bruce in either case was not an offensive fighter but defensive this can be seen in both “Wing Chun” and “Jeet Kun Do” it is the basic principle of both. “Wing Chun” is more re-action then pro-action.”Wing Chun” answers the “Action with a responsive reaction “Jeet Kun Do” takes it a step further back as being “The interception of the Action.” “WAY OF THE INTERCEPTION STRIKE”
Bruce was always a cautious fighter and exposed your weakness. “Jeet” is one step before “Wing Chun” if that makes sense. Why respond when its better to Intercept. Think of Football the guy catches the ball and Drops it.In “WING CHUN” it capitalizes on that and you never get the ball back. JEET KUN DOO Intercepts the Ball.
Do I believe it was about teaching Whites and Racism?… Yes and No.
Our perception of racism is much more different then what it was then.
It was no more of Racism as much as it was a form of tradition. It wasn’t so much as “We will not teach you because your White”..As much as it was was…”You can not learn because your not Chinese”..now I know you may ask what’s the difference but there is a difference…”As in this is ours not yours”…Think about yourselves for a moment.You will do things with your family because they are your family not excluding others because they are a different family but because they are from your family…Plus Tradition dictated this nothing personal…”You do yours and we will do ours”…call it Racism if you want to and by todays Social status you may be right however that was not the status quo in the 60’s as Whites were the predominate force and Chinese were clustered in smaller groups as minorities so it may not have been a question of Race as much as a was a form of Protection from Whites as a Community.
Ergo Self Preservation.
Anyway I believe it was more Tradition Versus Progressiveness.
Do I believe the source was “Not to teach whites and other races”?…No…Do I believe it was…”Not to teach Non Chinese”?…YES…you might not see a difference but there is…Do I believe Bruce was taking a Martin Luther King Stance on racism?….Not necessarily basically I believe he had bills to pay and saw nothing wrong with it.
Sometimes we forget in gloryizing people we forget there human and do things for human reasons.
That later get turned into that by admiration.
Which comes into effect like “hey it works lets do it”…It fits the Legend better.
Do I believe Bruce won…?..NO…Do I believe he bested him?….YES….Bested meaning got the best or most punches in was it definitive no? again there is a difference.
When you best someone you walk away feeling like you won. When someone bested you, You don’t feel you won but you don’t feel you lost and we see this here on both accounts.also if you don’t believ you won but feel you didn’t lose.This leaves you thinking if I had another chance I could do better leading to him calling Bruce out for a rematch.
Do I believe it was 3 minutes or do I believe it was 20-25.Again in the middle when someone is besting you 5-10 minutes can feel like an eternity. Was it 3 no because 3 is nothing for Bruce to feel was too long.
So how long again somewhere in the middle 3-5 compared to 20-25
I believe it was 12-15 minutes…
Wing Chun is defensive. It will re-act it will recoil and then spring forth it will let you or allow you to make a first move and re-coil but when it reacts it comes forward like a bullet or a cobra or rattlesnake.
Bruce lee described Martial Arts as a “Chain with a Ball” on it and accurately so. As it has many movements and spins to it. Wing Chun is more direct as a “Spear” as you pull it back to lunge…”Jeet Kun Do’ is the spear without the re coil with out the pull back thus saving “Time and Energy” which is what Bruce was after or came to realization of after this fight.
Did he run?…I don’t believe so..Once Wing Chun takes its offense in close combat the last thing you want to do is walk into it.That would be a death trap. Did Bruce hit him in the back of the head…Absolutely but this does not mean he was running as Wing Chun is straight forward in close combat so in fighting “Wing Chun”what you would do is step back looking for an opportunity to then step back in.Would you get hit in the back of the head yes this would definitely happen on an opponent who is in motion in turns and spins.Think of a “Spear” trying ot hit a “Ball and Chain”Thus creating as Bruce would say a “Classical Mess”
Do I believe Bruce said…’Your friend just killed you”…No..I don’t.Bruce had a bad temper and ego but he wasn’t stupid.
If you watch his movies and I know they are just movies but since you are the one Choreographing the fights.You play it out as you feel it should or would go in real life so him directing is some insight as to how he saw combat.In no moment when it came done to throw down does Bruce ever make a Cocky Statement…Or at least very rarely he took this moment very seriously how much more in real life where its life or death?.But again it adds to the Legend.I believe he was quiet and totally totally focused. He had to be.This is not a movie to be making statements…For what???In front of who and for what???…In his movies he demonstrated his perspective on a fight a Movie yes but still his perspective…Focus don’t waste energy and get the job done…
Do I believe Bruce threw Eye jabs and Groin punches?…Absolutely this is real son this is not for play….Expalin the Scratch under Wongs eye.
Do I believe some of Wongs people tried to stop it?…Absolutely upon witness that nothing was coming of it and Wong receiving so many punches on the back of the head is where I believe Bruce capitalized on Wongs weakness.Thus explaining why Wong did not have too many Brusies but I sure bet he was Lumped up.
However again picture a “Spear” trying to hit a “Ball and Chain” and a “Ball and Chain” hitting a spear…Many many missies and very little contact…Everything happening so fast and messy and becomes as Bruce said..”A Classical Mess”
Leading to an exhausting fight on both ends.
If the “Spear” is more precise it will get the more of the hits in because even if the “Ball and Chain” is more precise the Ball must come back around to seize the moment and opputunity…..Phewww…Ok sorry for being long winded ok my account on the fight went as such…..
They walk in they Bow…Classical stances…Wong makes several attempts to engage feeling the pressure not to fail. Bruce Blocks several times…Wong makes a move and misses..In comes in “Wing Chun” full force and forward….Wong back up defensively…While Bruce is missing tremendously most of his his hits come as Wong is turning and spinning in traditional form…Wong make attempts to Strike and lands but very few as all of his time is wasted on avoiding oncoming onslaught…Much of Wongs time is wasted in blocks and avoiding as Bruce blocks and misses.Coming into contact with the back of Wongs head most of the time due to his turning and avoidance….Bruce never really getting to jump off as he wants too because he himself is having to block.
Bruce gets the better of the hits but neither one sees the purpose and are both exhausted after 10 -12 minutes of this Bruce asked Wong are you wanting to give up as Bruce is besting him.. Wong realizing he really is not getting anyway because he is just defending himself…Agrees Bruce asks him again and he agrees….
End of Fight DONE….Bruce walks away knowing he got the better of him and feels he Won but unsatisfied with his performance and not obtaining a decisive conclusive victory so basically and Wong walks away feeling he didn’t Win because he knows Lee got the best of him but at least Lee didn’t get a conclusive victory and so he didn’t Lose. To which every story from this becomes credible and validates all of the accounts.
So basically in the end Lee knows he didn’t lose but doesn’t feel he won while Wong Knows he didn’t Win but doesn’t feel he lost…
That uncertainty in Lees mind drives him to become who he becomes. Never again will it be left up for question…
Wong feeling is that uncertainty leaves him feeling he may still have a chance so he calls Lee out for a Re-match.
However Bruce did him a favor because at this point he had become who we now know as was ..”THE MASTER”… There comes a time when you no longer do what you do but you become what you do.He stopped performing “Martial Arts and became Martial Arts”…Ergo..the statement “BE WATER” he became it instead of doing it and Wong would have had no chance so Bruce realized it was better to save a Life then take One…Long live “La Su Long”…
According to Skip Ellsworth one of Bruce’s signature moves for the outset was to rush forward with multiple rapid strikes at the eyes and face, Bruce told him that Ip Man taught him that using that he would win most fights.
Despite trying to judge the truth based on their biased versions of what happened, every other eye witness account (except Linda’s) is in line with Jack Man Wong’s. David Chin and Bill Chen did come to Bruce’s studio with Wong but neither had any reason to flat out lie about what happened. It’s not like any of these men are lifelong friends who agreed to back each other up. Throughout the years they gave their own independent versions and each one seems to be describing the same event. Linda’s and Bruce’s versions differ slightly with Linda backtracking on her original version which says that Bruce pummeled Wong into submission. In the recent book “Bruce Lee: The Evolution of a Martial Artist” she says no one was injured. Of course, that was after a lack of evidence for the original story became more obvious throughout the years (every eye witness, including grandmaster Ming Lum, said Wong was uninjured). Let’s face it, Bruce lied from the beginning. And is this any surprise? He ran with a gang in Hong Kong and roamed the streets looking for fights. He was a violent, egotistical punk who would totally lie if it meant everyone thinking he got owned. How many kids in a gang have you known? I’ve known plenty and they’re not honorable people.
A little harsh on Bruce, I wonder how a more mature Bruce say in his fIfties would describe the fight.
And why did Wong’s people try to stop the fight? And why did James want it to continue?
Obviously – Wong was losing.
Reply for Willow Palm.
As you know about Gang fights or Street Fights, you will also be aware that they do not have a duration of twenty minutes, unless there are periods of rest and inactivity which no witness describes. The fact that witnesses are claiming a 20 minute duration for the fight would indicate that this is not a realistic account for a street fight. A three minute fight is far more realistic. You only have to look at professional UFC or Boxing Fights to see how breathless fighters are after 3-5mins of a bout and that’s at the top levels of the sport and after long training camps. They also need to take a rest and usually a drink too between rounds. Neither Bruce or Wong had prepared for the fight, so it’s doubtful they could have fought for more than several minutes with the high activity witnesses describe. Yes Lynda has altered the details of her description but she has always described a realistic duration of a few minutes. This is the one fact that indicates the Lee version is the more truthful. Another point about Wong’s claims about the fight is that he is alleged to have said that he hadn’t used all his ability (e.g. kicks) for fear he would kill Bruce but that’s utter nonsense because there are many ways to incapacitate someone without killing them, e.g. knock out, choke hold, submission holds, broken bones. You have to wonder why Wong went to fight Lee in the first place, if he was so concerned there could be serious consequences that he effectively threw the fight and didn’t win conclusively as he allegedly believes he could have. I’m not going to state who won but I’m far more sceptical of Wong’s supporters version, especially as it is only being promoted so long after Lee’s death.
First off, it wasn’t a street fight. It was an official challenge match. Everyone keeps going about how neither man was prepared or trained as hard as professional fighters. Says who? All they did was train. Even though this fight caused Bruce to work on his cardio because he was “winded” he still trained like an athlete at the time. Wong Sifu’s cardio training was already pretty hardcore since he trained in Northern Shaolin which is known for it’s long forms and strenuous drills. People who say there’s no cardio training in traditional martial arts have never been involved with the right style or school. Are you going to say the Shaolin monks are pussies with no cardio training? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_G8AnBNBs1Y, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rs-ax3EMsoQ
And the whole notion that because Wong decided not to use his kicks indicates he’s lying doesn’t make sense either. Giving yourself a disadvantage in a challenge match is something that was often done out of hubris throughout the history of such matches in China. It’s usually done to show just how much better you are than your opponent. Just because he didn’t use kicks didn’t mean he was at a disadvantage either. Many fighters in the UFC like Rampage Jackson, Randy Couture, etc. rarely if ever used kicks. They still won fights. It’s been surmised that Wong saying the fight lasted 20 minutes was taken out of context. His English was lacking at the time of the Official Karate article. He may have meant that the whole incident, including the verbal exchange beforehand, lasted 20 minutes.
I’m telling my account has to be the way it happened.
becuaseit adds validity to both stories meeting in the middle.
Your wasting time on details that you’re making up in your mind. Just like Bruce’s teacher Wong Shun Leung said, “People used to see Bruce Lee and have kung fu dreams.” The real details have already been published and told by the people who were there. After circling around the room trying to land something on Wong, Bruce was exhausting himself. Wong evaded, blocked, and checked Bruce’s underhanded groin kicks with his feet. Finally, Wong pounded his ass with a strike to his neck. Then, as Bruce was rocked, he got him in a headlock with his left arm. Bruce was flailing as Wong was debating hitting him with the final blow. But he let him go and, just like the dishonorable gang banging little prick that he was, Bruce kept charging at him. At the end Wong slipped and Bruce tried to get on top of him, but Wong braced him with either his foot or his knee. All everyone could see, including eventual money grubber Linda, was Bruce’s back and him punching downward at Wong. What they didn’t see was Bruce punching at air. If it was scored by points, Bruce lost plain and simple. Of course, a ruthless little punk like himself would never admit defeat. Once again, I ask you, have you ever known anyone in a gang? They’re egotistical punks who will never admit they lost!
Bigfrank says:
Talkn like a know it all doesn’t help anything Ur full of shit just put my opinion in!
Sione Lolohea says:
With respect sir but were you there?
Well never heard this version but the duration seems a believable few minutes. Puzzling though why someone who came looking for a fight would not win decisively if they could, which again makes this version questionable too. Also if ‘all everyone could see’ was Bruce’s back, how do you know he was ‘punching at air’. If you’ve just hit someone in the neck and put them in a headlock, why not choke them out…. why let go of them? The fight wasn’t over, so why shouldn’t Bruce have kept fighting….. oh Wong slipped… then Bruce got on top. Unfortunately this is another load of rubbish, like the 20 minute fight that could never have happened.
Never heard that version? It’s the one that was in the Micheal Dorgan article from 1980 (http://www.kungfu.net/brucelee.html), and in this book: http://www.amazon.com/Showdown-Oakland-Story-Behind-Bruce-ebook/dp/B00AR0KE1I/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1414290948&sr=8-1&keywords=showdown+in+oakland
Once again, it wasn’t a street fight. Bruce made an open challenge at the Sun Sing Theater because he got pissed off at the crowd. David Chin was the guy who went back and forth to confirm the details of the match. Bruce agreed to the whole thing but told them they had to go to his school. On the appointed date they showed up and there was a lot of verbal sparring before they actually joined hands. Bruce was yelling and cursing during the fight, especially after Wong nailed him. When Wong had him in the headlock he was thinking he’d have to nail him with a devastating blow for Bruce to stop because he just wouldn’t stop. He would have had to knock him out and originally he wasn’t there to really hurt him. It was a gwan sai challenge match, they were kung fu teachers sparring and comparing skills. Being the more disrespectful, loud mouthed punk, Bruce was trying to hurt Wong as badly as he could, kicking to the groin, and going for the finger gouges. Wong blocked and evaded everything and struck Bruce in the face. Bruce managed to strike him in the chest but it did nothing. He was punching air at the end because none of those punches hit Wong’s face. He was completely uninjured after the fight (except for the scratch above his eye). Bruce was too winded to go on and he knew he technically lost. No one quits their style after winning. Who’s done that in the world of sports fighting ever? Face it, Bruce Lee lied to do damage control and make himself look better. You don’t think a gang banger from Hong Kong would do that?
Good lord, willow palm, you should be a scriptwriter, as your imagination knows no bounds. You might as well add that he gave him the death touch and told him that he’d die within ten years! You and I weren’t there so any account we give is coming from someone else. What I can say is that coming from the Wong Shun Leung lineage and having been lucky enough to have a little training with the man, as well as some conversation time, I can better understand what kind of fighting spirit and VT skills he would have had after leaving HK. Also, from knowing Bruces Seattle student Jesse Glover I have insight into the Bruce which would have fought WJM. With this combined knowledge I could gather that the account that you are rehashing is way of the mark. BTW having started my own training in JKD under Larry Hartsell and Dan Inosanto, I can tell you that Bruce didn’t abandon VT. It is at the heart of JKD! what he added was a quicker footwork system to deliver an initial long range blow that would then bring him in to VT range.
I’ve read the article but not the book, neither of the references you listed are even remotely believable because they refer to a fight with a duration of at least twenty minutes, which as I’ve explained numerous times here is utterly ridiculous. Also again why was Wong such a fairy or was he Bruce’s social worker too, have people forgotten to mention this perhaps? Wong thinks Bruce is trying to hurt him ‘as badly as he could’ but instead of choking Bruce out or knocking him out, he decides to go easy on him for the sake of not hurting him? Why did Wong even agree to fight Bruce in the first place, did he think it would be a tickling contest? You ask who changes their style in the world of ‘sports’ fighting but this wasn’t sport fighting, this was real fighting as you’ve already pointed out that Bruce was allegedly trying eye gouges and groin attacks both of which are outside any ‘sport’ fighting rules. However to answer the question, I would expect just about every sports person develops their style as they mature, learning what works and what doesn’t work… or adapting to different opponents. Mayweather for example fought a different style of fight against Maidana the second time around, he threw away what didn’t work in the first fight even though he still clearly won the first fight. There is no reason that Bruce Lee, if he won the fight with Wong, still wouldn’t change things. If it took three minutes to win but you thought, if you’d been fitter or stronger or had done certain things differently you could have won in half that time, you’d make the changes, that’s what learning from experience is about.
So, it is interesting that nobody mentions James Lee’s account. He stated that they did fight for longer than 3 min. He also stated that neither fighter could land any real solid blows. Which led to exhaustion in both fighters and a draw. He also stated that the fighters looked like street brawler’s, instead of accomplished Masters. He states that Bruce was embarrassed by his performance. James explains this, in a interview, in response to the question of why Bruce stepped out of classical into a more street fighting system.
It is interesting to note that Bruce Lee never actually completed his training in Wing Chun, which was stated by a senior student of Ip man. Bruce did not deny this fact at the time this statement was made. Of course, this interview of James Lee was taken during the time Bruce had returned to Hong Kong. I believe James version, as he was their and was honest with the duration and the outcome. Actually this interview caused a rift, for a short time, between Bruce and James. That is the reason Bruce made that statement in his interview.
I totally believe that this was more of a street fight and that both fighters were unprepared and that Bruce was disappointed with his performance and especially his cardio (which Lynda also stated). What I don’t accept for a second is that they were fighting for twenty minutes, unless there were reasonable periods of inactivity, which nobody to my knowledge has described. I would believe a scenario where Bruce and Wong fought hard for a few minutes and then both were gassed, that would fit with the reality of a real street fight, not some fantasy make believe. If the duration was a bit longer than three minutes that’s acceptable but the intensity would have to have dropped off and I picture them floundering. I don’t think Bruce was happy with the fight but neither do I think he lost the fight, if he had I think it would have been in Bruce’s personality to have insisted on a rematch when both fighters were more prepared.
Bruce Lee fought as Bruce Lee, he was not flying a Ving Tsun flag as he fought. If you know anything about Wong Shun Leung, who Bruce acknowledged as being his biggest influence for becoming the fighter he was, you would know that Ving Tsun was created by humans and not by gods, and so an individual like Bruce could see ways to improve upon some things in the system just as his Ving Tsun ancestors had done while refining the system decades and century’s earlier. Even Wong Shun Leung famously altered the system when he added a move in the siu nim tao form. Wong Shun Leung always said “if you have a better way I want to know it”, and he meant it. Wong Sifu told me that he felt Bruce had taken himself, on his own, where he would have gotten had he stayed in HK training with him. So, don’t lay that Ving Tsun trip on Bruce as he had already been evolving his expression of fighting for a few years by the time of this infamous fight with WJM.
Linda, Leo Fong, Richard Bustillo, they all point to this fight as being pivotal in Bruce’s development as a martial artist. Bruce almost completely threw out Wing Chun for a time right after that fight. Linda remembers Bruce sitting with his head in his hands afterwards. Once again, I ask everyone: Who does that after winning a fight? Why does everyone assume an ego maniac like Bruce wouldn’t lie about losing? Not too long before that he was gang banging punk in Hong Kong. Guys like that don’t lie about losing fights? I’ve known plenty of fools like that and they always lie. Especially when it makes them look good.
I think you’re making an assumption that someone is only disappointed when they lose at something. If someone is a perfectionist for example, they may be disappointed if they won but they thought they performed badly. Imagine a Tennis Player who plays against an opponent, normally he wins by three sets to love, then in one match it goes to the wire and he only just wins. Or look at Ronnie O’Sullivan in the Snooker today, he had a 9-4 lead and only needed one more game to win but his opponent came back to 9-9, O’Sullivan wasn’t happy with his performance but he still won. So take Bruce Lee, he could have won against Wong and still been disappointed, we know that he wasn’t happy with his cardio because he did more cardio training. I think it may have been you who also asked about people changing their style of fighting after winning but Floyd Mayweather JNR, fought Maidena differently after beating him in the first fight, even though he won the first fight. He wasn’t happy because he thought he took too many punches in the first fight. Bruce was arrogant no doubt, maybe he thought he’d beat Wong easier, maybe the fight was closer than he’d thought, maybe he was disappointed with his performance but none of that means that he must have lost. It happens all the time, people win at something but they may be annoyed by one mistake they made. Ronaldo might score three goals in a match for Real but if he misses a Penalty in that same match, he’ll be thinking more about the missed penalty than the three he bagged. Don’t assume disappointment always means somebody lost.
David, you seem to be the only other level headed and common sense person on here. Thank goodness.
Thanks for that, hopefully it will help people to see things as less black or white.
He didn’t just change his “style”, he slammed Wing Chun. He said it was “insufficient”. Do you not know how much of an insult that is for his teachers? You talk to Wong Shun Leung or William Cheung and they definitely don’t act like Bruce Lee was the greatest ever. Of course, we’re in America where enough hype is all you need. Bruce Lee knew that and he successfully used his egotistical punk ass attitude to convince people he “could beat anybody in the world”. Why does everyone refuse to believe this loud mouth Hong Kong gang banger would lie after losing a fight? Really? It’s that much of a stretch??
The best thing i think in these situations is to get the story from either the source or someone who was there. The account given by James Yimm Lee states differently and im inclined to believe his story as he was in attendance it was the school James and Bruce opened together Wong Jack Man brought a few students with him an gave Bruce an ultimatum stop teaching non Chinese or face the consequences. They fought right there an that was that. There are a few facts that need to be cleared up to make this article viable at this point in his life Bruce was a gifted fighter an martial artist but no “Master” of Wing chun he learned the first 2 forms and was training under Yip Man for a total of 3 years. He learned alot of things but what set him apart was he was a fighter at heart , aggressive ,fast and innovative he wasn’t opposed to tailoring something if it didn’t work for him . After the fight he felt he needed to modify some things he did not throw out all his Wing Chun as Jeet Kune Do uses Wing Chun principles as its base thou modified. Like the centerline theory, Lin sil die dar, the vertical fist structure, as well as the tech ex. tan sao da, biu da, trapping hands. He didnt close the school to develop JKD it wasnt a commercial sucess so it was moved to James Yimm Lees garage, it was only a select few who Bruce and James taught. He was constantly in a state of experimentation , trial and error as he evolved so did his art . As to the winner or loser of the fight only the people who were there know for sure.
“Bruce was a gifted fighter”….is there any proof that this is actually true? From all the evidence I have seen it looked like he got into scraps with untrained people before JKD then after he developed JKD and his own physical abilities he got into more scraps with more untrained people but was able to dominate or end the fight quicker.
I don’t believe James Yimm Lee ever said they told Bruce to stop teaching non-Chinese. Where is that quote? I read that he said something about WJM being “the runner”. But let’s not forget, he was Bruce’s partner and friend and always tried to make Bruce look good. I bet the only reason those punks called WJM that is because Bruce was never able to land a solid shot. I suspect James knew Bruce was bested which is why he never added any specific details about how Bruce hit him. Bruce was all down on himself afterwards which makes it OBVIOUS that he lost. Bruce was an egotistical movie star who built up so much hype around himself that peopled actually came to believe he was the greatest kung fu master in history. What a joke.
The evidence seems to suggest Bruce may have been bested this does in now way take away that he no doubt had skill and his contributions to popularizing Kungfu around the world. Wong Jack Man was trained by an expert from the Shaolin Temple had had skills. Later he added Tai Chi to his arsenal.
Gman says:
At the end of the day you can’t compare Bruce from that era with Bruce when he died.
In response to ‘His English was lacking at the time of the Official Karate article. He may have meant that the whole incident, including the verbal exchange beforehand, lasted 20 minutes’.
You see this is what happens when you provide a rational argument, the new ‘story’ begins to change. I am quite happy to accept that the whole incident lasted twenty minutes from entering to leaving, that’s quite possible with verbal exchanges, perhaps they stopped and had a cup of herbal tea too, who knows. What anybody with any sense does know is that they couldn’t possibly have been fighting for twenty minutes non-stop without rest, in the sense of a real fight, not just posturing up. I am also willing to accept that both Bruce and Wong had a degree of fitness equivalent to their level of ability in the Martial Arts at the time but that is not the equivalent to a training camp of a professional fighter, who would prepare for up to six months for just one fight. (Also Bruce became obsessed with improving his cardio after the fight, so it seems unlikely that he was anywhere near his peak fitness levels of later years). I don’t want to keep repeating myself but the account of a frenetic fight of a few minutes duration is the real world account, anything else is pure fantasy. One other thing, the most likely reason that Wong didn’t use his kicks is that in a real fight, you often lose your kinetics, kicks are not that easy to perform when someone is beating on you. I don’t think this discussion will ever reach a satisfying conclusion for everyone but could we all at least agree on the fact that the fight did not have a 20 minute duration, in the sense of unbroken, continually action without breaks. Do I need to make it any clearer?
No matter how well conditioned they were even as supreme athletes you cannot deny that cardio and muscle fatigue would have set in particularly with an activity such as this that would have been performed at maximum ouput. No one has considered this let alone the impossibility of maintenance of form and style once fatigue has set in and this proves to align with the testimonies of witnesses of both sides. I do not believe that this fight last 20 minutes – both fighters would have come to a stand still, with no break between 8-10 minute mark – if that!
Chinatown says:
The Chinese did not allow teaching of gung-fu to non-Chinese until way after Bruce Lee’s interaction. During those days the Chinese were more worried about keeping their society under lock and key (discrimination, which still carries on to this day). Once the Chinese figured out that these non-Chinese brought money and was a stable income. Some began to accept non-Chinese into their schools and this happen to be in the mid-70s during the so called hippy era. I can tell you that most of these old sifus from the 50s and 60s still live up to the non-Chinese traditions of their schools. And I can tell you WJM is a traditional sifu.
WJM disciples have the luxury of spinning this however they want – Bruce is dead.
Goes both ways. Bruce Lee disciples have the advantage of Bruce being a celebrity and acheiving cult like status.
Rykter says:
I agree the actual fight probably didn’t last more than 3 minutes. But my speculation is that neither man was knocked down, but were rather, worn down by exhaustion. You see, traditional martial arts focused more on technique rather than cardio. Traditional techniques always assume the fight is over after a few moves (hitting groin, poking eyes = job done). Even modern boxers who train extensively can only fight for minutes before needing a break (otherwise it results in two guys standing around catching their breaths, which would explain the 20 minute accounts). This illustrated the inefficiency of traditional kung fu training in general. Unless you train cardio extensively like modern day athletes, its impossible to endure that long. Bruce probably realized this, and threw away his classical training, and evolved his martial art training into something more similar to a modern day athlete’s training, which is shown in his physique later on. I think the important thing here isn’t trying to figure out who won, but realizing that a single truth was discovered here by these two men: That the traditional teachings were more talk than action. When in a real fight, you get tired, and all styles get thrown out the window. If I spent all my life training in something that was ineffective, and wouldn’t even help me when called upon, I would feel depressed, close all my schools, and discover something new. I would like to stress that no truth can be found by taking either side or bashing either one of these men, because their contributions are different. Bruce’s teachings hold true to this day, that traditional forms are deadweight and useless in a real fight, so he takes an almost scientific approach to fighting, while WJM is passing down thousands of years worth of chinese heritage to the next generation. This perspective, to me at least, would shed a more positive light on the issue.
There are so many comments here, I don’t know if anyone will read this, but here goes. I believe this version makes the most sense. Also, I know the saying “the only dirty fight is the one you lose”, nevertheless, Bruce attacking the eyes and groin in this type of match, seems a little unethical.
Bruce was an amazing physical specimen, but his technique was often ill advised. For example, against a knife, he advised using a crescent kick to the weapon bearing hand. (This is shown in his self defense book). However, when he tried this on the set in the original filming of Enter the Dragon, he severely cut his ankle, and they had to film around it!
I would also ask, If Bruce’s Jeet Kun do was so effective, why was it changed by later students (many of Dan Inosanto’s) from original JKD to JKD concepts?
I will answer that. Because what Bruce did might work for him, but not for very many other people! Keep in mind that this fight was before Jkd came about, so I don’t see Bruce in reality as the unbeatable movie martial artist that most people think of him as.
One more point. When Bruce came first came to San Francisco he was confident to the point of almost being cocky. At a kung fu event he came into conflict with master Al Novak. Master Novak offered to settle issues right then and there. Bruce (wisely) declined. If you aren’t familiar with Novak, google him and you will understand.
Stuart (Glasgow) says:
I’m a massive Bruce Lee follower/fan, but don’t have the slightest doubt Bruce had a hard, hard time of it when he fought this guy and the limitations of his style became glaringly obvious to a badly winded Bruce…I’m glad this happened, because it made him rethink, in a big way, what he had to do to make sure it could never happen again and we all know the end result…a truly formidable fighting machine or, as one of his first students so aptly described him (James W. DeMile at facebook) ‘death came disguised as a little Chinese kid called Bruce Lee’
Anon Marks says:
Bruce lee beat WJM in 3 mintues that’s obvious. He stated it while alive but it was obvious he wasn’t happy with his performance.
WJM didn’t like Bruce lee boasting as it might affect his business of attracting students to learn under him and it was embarrassing. But when Lee found out he went to WJM restaurant and WJM hid in the kitchen, everybody knows that. WJM knows he was an idiot for lying so has tried to forget about the incident and is it a coincidence he never discusses it, or questions Linda Lee. Im a body language expert and ive seen Linda describe the fight 100 times, and I know she isn’t lying, id stake my reputation on that so would any body language expert.
The fight was about 3 minutes, but who did the timekeeping. Im sure to Bruce lee and WJM it might have seemed like more as they were both knackered. Bruce lee from chasing and WJM from running for dear life.
But seriously, is anyone still seriously debating this. People are so desperate to make out as if Bruce wasn’t superman that they pretend to have had conversations with Bruce lee with “He made me look bad” “He had no class” “To tell the truth nobody won that fight” “I wrote it down all those years back” lies. Its all lies. That’s how desperate some people are out there.
People need to understand that Bruce lee was a feared street fighter. None of his fights lasted much longer than 10 seconds. His Wing Chun had always worked against anyone he had ever encountered. When Bruce lee squared off with WJM he himself didn’t think the fight would last much more than 10 seconds. But I think WJM was kind of prepared and knew what was coming from Bruce, im sure WJM had experience of the Wing Chun style, although might not have been prepared for Lees athletism, speed and viciousness. And it probably shocked WJM.
So that Bruce Lee had a complete re think about his style isn’t that hard to understand, unless you make it hard, and make more of it than it actually is. He was a perfectionist and demanded a lot out of himself. Can you imagine how disgusted Lee would have been to allow the fight to go on to 3 minutes or more?
Bruce lee beat WJM. Exactly how long it took isn’t clear, maybe a little longer than 3minutes, but nowhere near 20 minutes. Bruce lee wouldnt talk about a fight he lost, if he had of lost to WJM or even drawn. Seriously, how can you draw a fight like this?
Then why agree to the draw? Not sure why you say Bruce was a “feared Street fighter”. There is little evidence he fought anyone of any skill.
Sam Smith says:
Bruce lee was a feared streetfighter, so why are you questioning it? Him being a feared streetfighter is not dependant upon Bruce lee having millions of streetfights. Its more about people being aware he was a man with phenomenal abilities and the word getting around. People knew he had tremendous abilities back then, based on people having seen him spreading the word about it, and it going viral in a sense. And yes bruce lee was a gifted fighter which you are questioning as well. Anyone who sparred with him all come to the same conclusion, with no exceptions that he had amazing fighting abilities. They are compaing Bruce lee to everyone they had seen, or were aware of and bruce lee was another level in their opinion. So stop being overly critical about Bruce lee and changing the subject.
All you need to know is Bruce lee kicked WJM butt in 3 minutes which any serious person would acknowledge to be most likely true.
“Bruce lee was a feared streetfighter, so why are you questioning it? Him being a feared streetfighter is not dependant upon Bruce lee having millions of streetfights. ”
Questioning this because there is no evidence that he fought anyone of any skill. Nobody says he had to have millions of fights just a fight with someone of known skill. Kimbo Slice was a feared streetfighter until he actually fought someone with known skill. You make the claim that all of his fights lasted less than 10 seconds..what evidence backs that claim? Who did he fight?
“Questioning this because there is no evidence that he fought anyone of any skill.. Kimbo Slice was a feared streetfighter until he actually fought someone with known skill. You make the claim that all of his fights lasted less than 10 seconds..what evidence backs that claim? Who did he fight?”
Its ok to say Kimbo was a feared streetfighter, but when people say Lee was a feared streetfighter you have to try deny that Bruce was, or resent it or question it rather than take the comment for what it is? You sound rather jealous and envious to me, you see people like you all the time.
Well its obvious most of his fights lasted less than ten seconds. People who witnessed Lee said any fight with Lee that they saw was over in seconds. Bruce lee himself has described fights where he disposed of people in seconds. So its hardly using artistic license to say his fights mostly lasted a matter of seconds.
So because Bruce lee was used to having his own way in seconds, its quite likely bruce lee expect to destroy WJM in 10 seconds. Im not sure if Bruce lee rated WJM higher than the people he had fought before.
Skip Elsworth said he knew Bruce lee could end any fight within seconds.
So back on the subject with Bruce lee and WJM. Bruce lee was only disgusted with his performance against WJM because he was used to winning his fights easily soon after the first blow was thrown in fact. You have to assume that because otherwise why be disgusted at beating a skill martial artist in WJM?
Bruce lees students have intimated that idea as well so why question the messenger? Why not question Lees students? Probably because you probably know they probably know what they are talking about. Its an easy way out to question the messenger because of whatever beef you’ve go.
The whole idea of being jealous of Bruce Lee is laughable and just plain ridiculous. I am over a decade older than he ever reached and never accomplished even a fraction of what he did. You seem to ignore the fact that all but one of Bruce’s fights had no names attached to them, how can anyone even make the claim that Bruce was so good without attaching any names? So all of his fights against unskilled people lasted less than 10 seconds and the one time he goes up against someone who has some sort of skill (not really sure about Wong Jack Man level) the fight goes to 3 minutes…says alot about the quality of the fighters Bruce was fighting up until then to me. I have questioned Bruce’s students when I had the chance and its plain to me that they have placed him on a pedestal without any proof. Seems to me they were awed and overwhelmed by his physical attributes and athleticism and star struck to the point they never thought about looking for any kind of proof and really those claims were made by them after he died.
You are just going off on a tangent now. We were discussing Bruce lee v WJM and now you are trying to make a case for Bruce lee being overated? Jealous guys always try to make a case for Lee being overated, but not convincing anyone while doing it. Join the club.
Envious at how everyone said how great Lee was is what its boiling down to now. Just because you have a name, are pro with a win, loss and draw record it doesn’t make you any good. Bruce lee showed that countless time. He made light work of Delgado who incidently said Lee was the toughest guy he ever fought while Lee was alive. Skipper Mullins who was a streetfighter before turing karate champ said hed pick Lee in any street situation. John Worley and Jim Kelly have lavished praise on Lees fighting abilities as have countless other tournament champs.
What will you exactly gain by saying bruce lee beat a lot of bums before fighting WJM and saying WJM was crap? Probably not much other than make yourself feel better. Go ahead then.
Hendrik says:
Is there any reference about WJM fighting experience? How many fight he fought? Where he learned and how much he has learned? I think WJM lost in all of that compared to Bruce Lee.
A less experienced fighter cannot defeat a much experienced fighter.
Paul Cuzzort says:
Incorrect, a better trained fighter will win over a more experienced fighter, not saying that WJM was better trained or more experienced, just pointing that out.
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“I’d gotten into a fight in San Francisco with a Kung-Fu cat, and after a brief encounter the son-of-a-bitch started to run. I chased him and, like a fool, kept punching him behind his head and back. Soon my fists began to swell from hitting his hard head. Right then I realized Wing Chun was not too practical and began to alter my way of fighting.”
This was the statement made by Bruce Lee…what great class as he never mentioned any names…the only people who would know that he was referencing the fight with Wong would have been those present at that time, and they already knew the outcome.The silence was never broken, what is meant by a private fight was that the name of either participant wouldn’t be dragged through the mud afterward,and the danger and serious presence of a real fight. and with that said Bruce never broke the silence. And this was a statement made in black belt magazine, the leading martial artist magazine in the U.S. Bruce was very known at the time as the interview in itself implies that…blackbelt magazine doesn’t interview you unless ur a big deal.
Lastly, Bruce never refused a rematch. He refused an exhibition in which Wong wanted a redo, and requested restrictions and limitations such as no eye gouging or kicking to the face. Basically a rerun but this time the “The Karate Kid” way, unrealistic fighting was a huge pet peave of Bruce’s…yeah I wouldn’t have given a response either. Lol just saying.
Ric says:
Please read this book, “Showdown in Oakland”, by Rick Wing for a more comprehensive telling of what happened. I believe the author of this article is unbiased but not necessarily in full possession of all the facts and research that Rick Wing was able to obtain. I am a big Bruce Lee fan, but that doesn’t mean I think he was infallible. He was a human and if the competition in MMA demonstrates anything, it shows that no one is the perfect fighter, an undefeatable god. Hero worship beyond reason goes against what Bruce Lee himself preached, the ability to learn by being open and not recognizing one style or one individual as the end all.
http://www.amazon.com/Showdown-Oakland-Story-Behind-Bruce-ebook/dp/B00AR0KE1I
Vi says:
Bruce was a perfectionist. The impetus to change was based on the improvement of something that was already good. I don’t understand why people can’t understand something so simple.
I think bruce won, because he continued teaching wing chun to other people, he changed his style because like he said in enter the dragon A good fight should be like a small play but, played seriously, but he never beat wong jack man easier so thats why he created JKD
The author here is buying into the untruths Wong and Co had no option but to spin. In Chinese society dishonesty is perfectly acceptable and expected if used for the purpose of saving face.
Fights between fighters of this calibre will generally not exceed 5 minutes. And telling us what Wong “remembered” during the fight tells us the whole story is pulled directly from Wong’s account. Either that or the author is super-perceptive in knowing what someone thought without being present. Plus it makes perfect sense that Wong only had a scratch seeing as he allegedly surrendered in an arm hold.
Using Lee’s change of residence and fighting style as evidence that he lost the fight is preposterous. There could be a million possible reasons for each, if in fact they even happened as portrayed.
Just another rubbish blog here among the millions of others out here.
At the end of the day i think this fight changed both Fighters. Lee went ahead to create his JKD at the same time WJM wanted a rematch which in essence means he went back re-lived the fight and tried to improve and perfect his style.
In conclusion Lee got the better of WJM
Bruce Lee changed his fighting style after the the match.some guy in the comments said he adopted what seemed to be worthy and discarded what wasn’t necessary and that he learned Ali’s footwork for advantage. But wing chun didn’t need improvement.the fixed stance helped the fighter to stay focused on the opponent’s actions so they could read them and act accordingly. If you are jumping on your feet all the time you might be a tough target for many fighters to hit, but for a master you give up your position and he will judge where you would be the next moment and strike a blow right at you. Moreover,when you are moving like Ali you are off balance for a nick of time and that is exactly what a master needs. What I’m trying to say is wing chun didn’t need innovation if mastered.for masters like yip man it was enough standing and judging the opponent and that what they all did. Another thought is that what many people say that Bruce didn’t learn wing chun from yip man for enough time so he didn’t master it.therefore he had to add some of his flashy moves whether it be for better fighting that suited him or just for the movies or just because Bruce was so ambitious that he wanted to invent his own style.
Hi, i typed this in after releasing there was a movie about this fight, before this movie (even though being a big Bruce Lee fan) i had never heard of it before. But its also possible he changed it (not because he lost) but because it took too long and that was just over a minute that fight (like in the movie DRAGON) and not being as effective against that particular style.
Bruce was always a perfectionist from what ive read about him and against certain styles Wing Chun might not have been as effective or fast enough for him as he likes to finish his fights fast and 3 mins is way too long for Bruce.
Kevin Thongkham says:
What kind of fight lasts for 20 minutes? Besides professional fighting where the take breaks. A real fight last a couple seconds to a couple minutes.
We comment like we know these great men in person just because we read about them?
Plus why debate on only one winner?
Additionally, can someone comment without bringing in his/her own personal point of view, reflecting on how each of these men did what they did based on what each thinks he/she would do in such a situation?
So, if one really really wants to know who won, watch the movie.
As I have said multiple times and Kevin said above, the account of a fight of short duration is the more realistic account. Anyone suggesting that Lee and Jackman had a thirty minute street fight is frankly deluded. How does watching a ‘movie’ really inform someone about the ‘reality’ of an event, what would be more informative is a documentary with actual recorded footage and witness testimony but what you would have seen is two Kung Fu men fighting for a few minutes and both of them being tired at the end of it because that’s the reality of street fighting. If you doubt me go and watch any UFC fight and see how gassed the fighters are after 5 mins of competition, when they take a break and these are people who have trained everyday for months in preparation and are Professional Athletes.
We are so great at interpreting events and words aren’t we?
For example: “I’d gotten into a fight in San Francisco with a Kung-Fu cat,….” Oh that Kung-Fu cat means Wong Jack Man, nothing more and no one else, no doubt about it. Oh wow, now that means someone just broke a rule about a fight, cos that’s about the exact same fight that an agreement was made about. Aha! I am so smart to figure that out. Now I can make all other assumptions based on my great interpretation of people’s words.
So here’s one more theory.
Bruce Lee did not mention Wong Jack Man by name. In not doing so, he, in a manner of speaking, did not violate any agreement to not talk about the fight. Bruce Lee could have just used some “Kung-Fu cat” to mean some other fight with all the differences in his favour and left the rest to the imaginations of people. So people go on and talk like Bruce was referring to a fight with Wong Jack Man that had so much differences like 3 minutes versus 20 minutes and who won to who was in attendance, when in a manner of speaking Bruce was not. So he kept to his word, closed his business, learned more, sought out the teaching of Wong Jack Man’s teacher, etc. All this while, allowing people to believe whatever perceptions they wanted to believe.
Now wont this make much more sense?
(That’s including Linda Lee only knowing of the fight from word of mouth and not as a witness).
Loner1 says:
Well as much as this article concludes much to your own bias opinion… it also shows how poor are your judgments and how lousy is your common sense…
Do you think someone who had lost a fight would have the courage to brag about it publicly?
and Do you think someone that who had won a fight and has been ridiculed, and falsely made a looser publicly in TV in Books and in History would just keep silent about it?
No wonder you couldn’t keep a job in writing… coz suck on it! 😀
Because Wong Jack Man is like super cool and would not brag about his win.
Bruce Lee however likes to brag and did so implying that he won THAT fight. What he cleverly avoided was not mentioning WJM, and therefore did NOT say he won the fight with WJM.
The whole community of “in the know” people took what Bruce said to mean THAT fight, cos you know, they are “in the know” so they think they know stuff. This led to WJM coming out and saying he WON that fight.
When WJM finally realized that Bruce Lee was only playing around after Bruce explained to him about doing so for “business”, WJM then also realized it was WJM who was the one who spoke directly about the fight, breaking the honour he thought he had held. So, he now continues to hold true to not speaking about the fight till this day.
So, in conclusion, Bruce Lee lost and did NOT say he won THAT fight with WJM as he never mentioned WJM while WJM won as WJM did reply in reference to THAT fight with Bruce Lee.
Isaac garcia says:
I’m going with Bruce and Linda Lee.because the fact that Wong was to afraid to speak up.we all no Bruce
Was cocky.and upset at the challenge. So of course he talked about it.but a fighter would say something are even fight again ,Wong kept quite. he lost.his friends waited tell Bruce was gone to make claims.Wong lost
Mladen says:
“””So why would a man change what works? Only if it didn’t work.””” Because Bruce Lee won but his Wing Chun lost that is why he changed the style. Only idiot would not change something does not work. Man is fighting, not his style.
OK he has scratch but what HE has do to Bruce Lee than??? Broken nose? Blue eyes? That means that Wong can even punch Bruce ONCE for 20 goddamn minutes. If I would that Jack Man I would hara-kiri for such embarrassing and humiliation that for 20 minutes he can hit Bruce even once. What kind he is Si Fo??? I KNOW that Bruce Lee would kill himself if he lose from Wong.
As a matter of fact I know that Wong turn his back to Bruce all time and Bruce hit it again and again for “20 minutes” and Bruce sad tomorrow that his hands hurt him from “many punch” he give it to that Chinaman.
Bruce won ,, Bruce change his style bcoz wing Chung man has no good kicker n wong jack was a good kicker , bruce under estimate Wong’s skill after face difficulty with wong jack man bruce legalized that he most learn everything that’s effective that’s y he changed his style, n look man wong was a good martial artist but Bruce’s strength was far better than wong ,, a shaolin monk that’s not mean he was a super human, by the classic kung fun stands are very slow
Bleek says:
At first I believed Bruce won. Then I read more stuff and I thought these two men were trained master both effective and both would have incredible endurance so maybe the fight did last long. Not 3min not 20 min but a fight.10-15min maybe. And Wong being a monk , why would he have to lie about the fight. Now I thought Wong had won the fight. Since Bruce was cocky and arrogant. He broke the silence of the fight, his ego was hurt and he had a image to protect. Then I read and looked up more stuff . And I come back to the conclusion lee won the fight. Lee was one bad ass mf. Lee was a master. He opened up studios, teaching actors and other famous people. lee was a movie star. Lee was making serious Hollywood money . While Wong is watching all this. Wong must have to feel some type of way. Wong a master himself , must think he is as good as lee maybe even better than lee. When lee put out the challenge in Oakland. It was another martial artist who wrote the note to challenge lee, but Wong signed it. Why would he sign another mans note to challenge lee. Because he wanted to prove he was better and expose lee.
So the fight happens. Now what happens? Everyone stays quiet until lee breaks the silence saying he whooped that ass. Then Wong is like no it was a 20 min fight (I think that’s bs). If it is was a 20 min fight both men would have marks like crazy, so the fact that Wong went to work the next day with a little scratch under his eyes meaning the fight was super super short it was not 20 min. Another thing Wong never had claimed his victory. U think if I beat Bruce lee movie star I’m staying shut . Wong wanted the rematch. But anther thing is lee was known like I said for his cocky and arrogance. U think if lee lost he would not take the rematch . On lee’s ego he would have taken the rematch to avenge his lost and prove to himself ( u know ego macho stuff). On the other hand if Wong lost he would want the rematch to avenge his lost and embarrassment.
At the end Wong admits he regrets the fight with lee and there was arrogance from both men.
So I think the fight was 2 , 3 min and that the only reason why there was only a scratch under wongs eyes is was because it was a quick fight and Wong did retreat and lee was just punching him in the back of the head and the body . Wong was on defense.and the fight was stopped . 2 , 3 min fight . Of course Wong would have wanted a rematch. It was a quicky, any man who calls themselves a master and gets beat fast and in a way you wouldn’t expect. Would want a rematch.
Then the whole breaking the silence . Iee had a lot of jealous and envious people of him because of all the money he was making let’s keep it real . So the breaking the silence was like him giving proof to his own people hating on him that he is the real thing and lee was a innovator he was a genius ahead of his time and his own people own community his biggest critic tearing him down it was like a f-u I’m doing it my way n was letting no one stop his vision.
And that thing about lee changing his style was because he thought his first style was perfect . So when he did not take out Wong as fast and as effective as he thought he could he changed his style to improve and to make it effective and efficient as possible. Lee won .
“Lee was one bad ass mf. Lee was a master. He opened up studios, teaching actors and other famous people. lee was a movie star. Lee was making serious Hollywood money .”
You seem to not be aware of when this fight happened. This fight took place in 1964. Lee was not a master in Wing Chun. He had just opened the one studio , he was also not making serious money.
Bruce only learned up to the second set of Wing Chun forms. He learned most of his WC techniques from Wong Shun Leung. He didn’t graduate from Wing Chun. He didn’t know butterfly knives! He didn’t learn the complete system of Wing Chun! He tried to pay Ip Man big bucks to learn wooden dummy techinques, but Ip Man refused!
When Bruce Lee came to America, he said this Kung fu teacher was no good, and that Kung Fu teacher was not good. So someone tried to get Jack man Wong to teach Bruce Lee a lesson. That’s how the fight got started!
You always keep what is working. After the fight, Bruce knew that Wing Chun had a lot of limitations, so he changed his style and started learning kicking.
Lee wasn’t a movie star when he fought the monk
Silvero1a says:
The answer to the Mystery Fight..is…Bruce Lee…was…NOT…defeated….I was invited to see the Fight..it..lasted….14 Minutes….Bruce….out classed….Wong ( 9 were present) Jack….Danced….around him and just…..wore him out….now.. The Fight to Death…is…a street term….Bruce…said each time a Man fights….must win….or loose….part of….his life….he wins….adds…time to Life….This is also True Bruce..was…in a Contract…for Films….a host of Celebrities as James Coburn…Fred Williamson….etc: Studied under Bruce Lee….! He was a Master Marshal Artist…he pushed himself…everyday….he experimented….with every style….finally…. developing….as The Master Named and spelled… Jeet Kun Do….. he
was and remains Undefeated….and Bruce my Friend will always…be with me….forever
we were the same Height….weight….he called me little bear….I called him big brother…he was a friendly…soft spoken…Gentleman….his Family suffered hardships..his…son..Brandon….killed on Movie set…in life Bruce perused…the Ultimate….Strength…Power..Speed…d designed a electronic..Voltage…Training regulator….it encased to steel 50 Volt…disks…one for right hand & left hand each time he struck it with his fist 50 Volts were released….Bruce invited me to see his workout…
he was hitting the disks…so fast..and hard….he bent the disk…in my Heart….this vision
of his Love…strength…speed….endurance…for the Marshal Arts…..will be forever…..
The Day Bruce passed was…very..sad….I miss…my…big brother….Rest…In…Peace
Keith Cannon says:
Bruce Lee obviously lost the fight thr minute it started by throwing Bil Jee, which is a self defense move, not a fighting move. Wong did not resort to eye gouging…. If the fight is judged on points, Bruce Lee loses them for such rudimentary form.
Lee also had the home turf advantage, Wong’s problem came when he lost his footing on an even parrt of the floor…. Something he would have been aware of if he was on his home ground.
An acknowledged problem with Wing Chun as a fighting style is a lack of footwork, this due to the fact that Wing Chun is for self defense and not fighting. One look at the Sil Lum Tao stance will show you that.
Bruce may have lost the battle but he won the war… And learned a lot. The fight had little to do with racism, it was about Bruce Lee’s behavior. I have read tales of Bruce Lee in Hong Kong, getting to training early, waiting outside Yip Man ‘s tell the students that arrived that there was not training, Yip Man was sick and once they all went away he went up and told Yip Man that he was the only one to show up so he could get private lessons. This behavior was not going to be tolerated by the powers that be in San Francisco’s Chinatown anf if it wasn’t for Wong fighting him he would have had the Tongs after him This is one of the reasons for the silence on the issue.
Another reason for mysteriousness around it was that it was recognized the Bruce was going to popularize Kung Fu, which meant lots of money for Kung Fu instructors… Internet sources state that Wong is eorth over a billion dollars…. Everyone ‘s a winner.
Near says:
“Break from the Form, step up, and evolve”
That’s what Master Bruce Lee would say to the future generations.
In addition,
“Do not focus on the finger or you’ll miss all the heavenly bodies up there “;)
Do not focus on the form, but focus more in training yourself as a human being, to completely express yourself, for me that is the greatest most difficult thing to train of.
-Near, White Belt Student of Shotokan Karate
James Hi says:
A twenty minute fight with Bruce Lee leaves only a scratch under Jack’s eye? Sounds like a three minute fight to me. Maybe Jack won’t talk about it because he lost and maybe he ran. Bruce Lee forever!
Wong Jack Man id talk about it after Bruce did. He even challenged Bruce to a rematch.
Bruisedly says:
I was a Bruce Lee fan, but a rational not emotional mindless ones like most.
I believe WJM won because of the reasons you stated.
BL’s wife testimony is obviously unreliable, who would betray her husband who is a legend worshiped by the world. If she had come forward and told the truth that BL lost, his fans still would not believe her, but instead would vilify her.
If WJM’s wife said WJM lost then it’s believable.
Not only that I believe BL lost a fight to a Thai kickboxer while in Thailand filming the Big Boss. The reason is very simple, nobody talks about it till now. If he had won, the crew would have talked about it as publicity for the film.
My guess, the Thai boxer was paid off handsomely to keep silence.
– Stated reasons could be incorrect. Flawed assumptions. Which, at this point is basically all we have. The twenty minute fight is a big flag. A twenty minute fight is insane considering that professional MMA fights are five minutes per round and for normal matches, about three rounds. They also train all day every day, concentrating specifically on fight stamina. This is different than training forms/movements which is most likely how Wong Jack Man and Bruce Lee trained. Sparring/bag work is far more taxing on the body and represents real fighting stamina. I’m assuming that when Bruce trained with Ip Man, it was more “casual” (couple times a week) and certainly not on the level of a UFC fighter (all day every day). Hence, if he was to fight at the very least, evenly with Wong Jack Man, he would be winded within minutes. Thus, he would not be able to fight for twenty minutes straight, and Jack should have killed him (if Jack had superhero stamina). He didn’t, which is why twenty minutes seems bogus ergo refuting Jack’s account.
– That’s an assumption. It’s possible, but still an assumption. It’s equally plausible that she witnessed what she stated.
– As for the Thai kickboxing fight, that again, is an assumption. Using your own argument of exposure = motive, then wouldn’t that Thai fighter have come out as the next Bruce Lee? When Bruce was at the top of his game, EVERYONE wanted to be him. Jackie Chan was THRILLED to be working with him. If you beat the guy, you would definitely be trumpeting it around while spending all that money from the hush money…unless you were a saint. Which, if you’re fighting your boss on a movie set…you’re probably not. Also, you would most likely keep blackmailing Bruce, for life. This explanation is an assumption, but it’s as plausible, if not more plausible, as the one that you made.
Interesting that some of you think that a fight couldnt last 20 min when boxers before the the MOQ rules sometimes fought for hours.
You don’t think 20 minutes is possible!
When there wasn’t any actual contact, punch/kick landed to the bodies, then 15 or 20 minutes was possible. I read that JMW was jumping and running around to escape the attack from Bruce during the fight, and Bruce was chasing after him! The tempo could be a stop and go fight. There was no ring, so the fight wasn’t confined to a small area. Both Bruce and Jack were allowed to run around right!?!
Both of them didn’t get hurt!
Making a confident sounding conclusion based only on what witnesses have said is as reliable as hot air. Since the fight was not filmed the only people who can know what happened are the people who were in that room.
First of all, even if Bruce Lee changed his style because of this fight does not mean he lost. It’s equally as plausible that someone like Bruce (if you see his workout routines and read his books), who was a perfectionist, would have been extremely upset if he didn’t beat Wong Jack Man in 30 seconds.
Besides, Wong Jack Man’s account state that the fight lasted 20 minutes….20 MINUTES STRAIGHT! That’s insane! Anyone who has ever sparred or been in a fight knows that in a fight that lasts even 2-3 minutes you’re already winded. Not to mention that I’m assuming Kung Fu back then didn’t utilize sparring matches like we do, hence the unrealistic idea that it would last that long. Sure, you can do form practice for hours, but when you’re actually on alert with adrenaline rushing and you want to kill the guy in front of you….totally different. UFC fighters get winded after a couple five minute rounds and they train all day everyday, specialized, and hardcore.
Jack Man Wong went to work the very next day. He didn’t get hurt.
If Bruce’s Wing Chun was so superior than JMW’s kung fu, why bother to change his style?
If Bruce won the fight, then why did he change his fighting style right after the fight? Yes, right after the fight, not a year or two later? He abandoned Wing Chun!!!
If Bruce beat him up once, he should have accepted JMW’s challege again. Bruce talked about the fight, but he didn’t say he beat up the guy badly!
Bruce Lee was only a right hand, right leg fighter. He hardly did a round house/side kick with his left leg!
Yes, which aligns itself to Linda Lee’s account. I don’t understand the relevance.
It wasn’t. That’s why he wanted to change it….which was my point. He was a perfectionist. He hated losing. Wing Chun presented many limitations.
He did. This was the impetus, where he started thinking about creating a whole new system. It wouldn’t appear overnight…
If he beat him up once, he would have no obligation to fight him again. I don’t understand the relevance nor the points you are trying to make in the rest of your statement.
GREG BAZEMORE says:
The fight lasted around 7 minutes and the end came about due to JMW accidentally tripping fue mostly from fatigue and Lee landing punches to the back of the head to which JMW people breaking up the fight.Lee had no problem with this decision since he was totally winded and was unable to really land effective punches or kicks due to JMW basically fighting defensively and not wanting to use his kicks which he thought could potentially cripple Lee.He basically refused to engage.My father knew James Lee and the thinking was JMW was there to fight and Bruce was there to kill.One TRUTH is considering all he was sauing at the time about the limitations of the “Old” styles,Bruce was “Embarrassed” that he couldn’t finish or dominate JMW.This is what drove him back to the drawing board.Research what I have just stated.But after reading all this guessing I decided to add some clarity which I’m sure will be denounced.I sure someone will see that there is some accuracy in my statement
Bruce Leroy says:
Fk Bruce Lee
Bobby Cabral says:
I got into a fight with this guy and I submitted him. He then brags to everyone that he won. And then, he asked for a rematch. Duh! Have you ever heard anyone who won a fight asking for a rematch? It’s the other way around. The Fact that Wong Jack Man wanted a rematch meant he lost the fight and wanted a Do-over. Bruce Lee won. And his star rose whereas the other guy, melted into obscurity. Like him or hate him, Bruce Lee revolutionized martial arts and self-defense. Period!
And did I accept the rematch? No. Because there was nothing left to prove. Which is why Bruce Lee ignored the call for a rematch. I understand it because I felt the same way.
Dumb analysis. Your article clearly shows the fight going to Bruce lee even with the evidence that he blurted out about it. Losers stay quiet. Winners don’t and the reason he changed is fighting style is the same for all martial artists: you don’t truly know someone until you fight them. Bruce Lee could keep his opponent on the defensive but could never “finish” or kill the opponent. So while clearly having the upper hand, it wasn’t enough to completely “end” a fight by eliminating the opponent. Thus, adaptation.
Dumb article.
Andrea Waldron says:
I study kung fu martial arts.
I found myself very disappointed with some of the information.
I became turned off when Wong Jack Man extended his hand prior the fight and Bruce low handedly started eye spearing and groin kicking. It’s as if he had to he to destabilize Wong asap. There wasn’t any martial technique displayed, just gang fighting.
I’m not much of a Bruce Lee fan. I respect him, but essentially he was “the one” that introduced martial arts to america; brought it to a frenzy state.
I think there are better martial artists out there, probobly were back then as well.
I feel it is inconsequential at this point in time to surmise the out come of something we were not privy to but only have several misguided quotes to go on. So why bother even begin to tarnish the Reputation of one or both men. we all know how good bruce was enough said. When your talking about the best ever.
Because we enjoy martial arts history possibly.
“we all know how good bruce was”…as a Martial Artist and a legend, yes we dont really know how good a fighter he actually was.
the author of this does have compelling arguments but they dont have anything to do with the fight for example he/she says that bruce lee changed his fighting style right after the fight because it didnt work however he/she also says that wong jack man was on the defensive most of the time. he/she is going against what they said.
besides most martial artists try to learn more then one style of fighting. it probably had nothing to do with the fight.
Keith coronado says:
First, I’ve trained in a temple for many years with a lineage descended from yip man and others. The fact Bruce starts his own line has nothing to do with losing or changing styles. Bruce never left his teachings rather blended them into his own form. Many styles were present in Bruce Lees form. Hungar and tai chi chuan being two styles. The fact remains that all being said is purely speculative. The argument that Bruce changed his style because he lost is simply not based in fact. He started his own line as masters do when they begin their schools and pass their lineage down to sifus in training. Bruce was unlikely to have lost based solely on the fact that if he did I would think people would have let the world know. Also he was allowed to keep teaching. The deal being if he lost hed stop teaching gaijin.
That so called deal about teaching non Chinese is a myth.
Rufus says:
_Fuck this_shit. Bruce whooped that slope’s_ass. Bruce is the mother_fuckin_shit, and the shaolin_zipperhead got owned.
_Fuck this_shit. Bruce whooped that slope’s_ass. Bruce is the mother_fuckin_shit.
God, develop a vocabulary please.
I believe the most likely scenario is the fight lasted 3 minutes. The closest example is in the first couple years of UFC when it wasn’t MMA it was style vs style. It was very rare a fight lasted more then a few minutes without one person falling to the ground and then getting punched repeatedly as they struggle to get up. This is exactly what Linda described. In my opinion this is the most likely real life scenario. My guess is Bruce decided to change is style because he realized his style was not efficient enough. A 3 minute no holds barred fight would have been exhausting.
I believe Man’s people changed the story so he would save face. His unwillingness to talk about the fight makes me think he was ashamed of the spin on the story. Maybe Bruce didn’t accept the second challenge because he had already gained what he wanted, proved his point. At some point he would have to turn the other cheek and just move on from his fued. Maybe he just didn’t want to fight again. He already thought his style was inefficient and didn’t want to take the risk of losing.
Finally, someone who gets it. This is the same point I was making.
I believe a lot of people commenting have never stepped into the ring or a dojo so they have no idea how winding a match actually is.
Also, to future responses, don’t bother with an: “I’m an x degree blackbelt or I’ve trained at a mystical temple and I can fight for twenty minutes while wearing weighted clothes and in 100x gravity, hold my beer”. Actually, if you can, good for you! Have a cookie! Please don’t hurt me with your chi powers, please.
Regarding the fact the Bruce Lee refused or did not agree to a public fight, maybe we should take into account that in the original fight he was brutal. This brutal “fighting style” may not have been very public-friendly.
Of course he has fought a “sport” fight in at least one martial arts exhibition, but I do not believe that he would do it against his rival.
Bruce was always into advancing his style and the reason that he changed his style was just because the fight lasted about 3 minutes. His philosophy was to finish a fight in less than 60 seconds and that is why he came up with his own style after that fight and took his skills to the next level. I am a professional martial artist myself and play other sports as well and compete with other. Even when I win a competition I have to be happy with my performance. Sometimes I win but still not happy with the performance. So I go home, workout harder and try to become better. I understand what Bruce was going through. His goal was just to beat anyone in less than 60 seconds and not 3, 5 or 10 minutes and I believe he finally accomplished that…….That is it..
A lot of people I believe have danced around one potential view of this fight in terms of who was “correct” about the amount of time it took. It may have taken both 20 minutes and 3 minutes. In a fight like this, both sides might not choose to, or have the weapons and techniques for a fast forward moving engagement. Neither style has a strong superior aggressive methodology to it. Each style is based around DEFENSIVE MARTIAL ARTS, and therefore they both use a “testing of the waters” mentality in engagement. It’s possible strikes, feints, kicks, and even some potential grapple and breaks happened before a closer engagement occurred. To the trained even the shifting of stance, position, and timing before major in-fighting methods became the final resolution of the mixup is still “fighting”. To those with less training the “fight” didn’t start for the first 15 minutes, lasted 3, and ended with 2 minutes of “avoidance” after the closed in engagement. This its self does not imply one particular winner or looser, just that the perception of events is based heavily on how you define “fight”. I could see the two men both highly skilled and physically fit sizing each other up, making quick feints, and then moving back to circular or position shifting based methodology looking for that “one opening” to end it before one of them finally leaped forward.
I would even suspect Bruce was the one to leap, that perhaps the 3 minutes of close range combat – not surprisingly – disappointing him and he felt it was a loss. Likewise with all the avoidance strategies available to Wong that a man using Wing Chun on the offensive wouldn’t be employing. To teach side they would see their fighter as the victor. To Lee he would see himself as winning by “landing more strikes” even if those strikes did little, or by virtue that he himself wasn’t on the defensive when it was over. We know this much, both men walked out of it relatively unscathed physically. No one wound up at a hospital (that would have come out by now) so major injury wasn’t received on either part.
When looking at any long engagement of combat between bare knuckle fisticuffs SOME form of major injury is expected. However if Wong was on the evasive, and Lee on the offensive, and only minor strikes from either could land (easy to believe considering the defensive nature of the styles) it would leave both winded after a long posturing point, a short close range engagement, and then Wong moving back to a defensive posture.
They both walked out of it, for Lee he seen it as “the worst kind of win” and for Wong it was “how he was trained to win a fight.” A lot of Shaolin techniques and methods are about NOT engaging directly into conflict. It’s even conceivable the “3 minutes of intensity” came closer to the start of the match, Bruce got discouraged saying that Wong was a coward after he has trouble landing strikes after those 3 minutes, and Bruce left with self declared Victory, while Wong relatively unscathed seen himself as victorious.
This is the thing about a match we didn’t see, we can presume both sides were correct and it isn’t impossible to see how “victory” could be perceived by both. Surely if the intensity of the combat had been truly severe either or both of them would have wound up in the hospital from it.
I think both men had different views of victory. Wong viewing the ability to walk away from any fight unscathed as victorious, Bruce seeing victory as the ability to overpower an opponent quickly and decisively. Two very different philosophies on the path of martial strength and in that two very different conditions for what constituted a win.
Christopher Lee Smith says:
Aganzul, 1st you call this the “Ultimate Bruce Lee site”. Is that supposed to honor Bruce? For by reading your article I do not find it to be a honor but a slap in the face to Bruce, his family and his friends.
2nd its now 2017, the fight that occurred between Bruce and Wong was over 50 years, meaning “1964” so if Wong and others of his clan felt so strongly “about lost of face” why didn’t he or none of his students go directly to the source and conduct a additional personal in your face challenge to Bruce before July 20th of before 1973?
3rd, you question the eyewitness account of his wife Linda, and that of his student and friend due to discrepancies of those present.
Then you question Bruce Lee trustworthiness as he gave his account of what happened when he was interviewed, perhaps you did not see or hear where Bruce did not name Wong, he stated “a Kung Fu Cat in San Francisco.”
And of course when you start the article you state he lost the fight? If I am not mistaken you used a catch phrase to entice the reader, and guess what. What you did is known as “click bait” and I for one am not impressed.
Finally I will tell you that this is one of the most one sided bias articles I have ever had the displeasure to read.
Yeah, but how do you really feel?
Obewankenobe says:
NO Fk U show”muff”mini.midget.got.no.brain.motomouth.
In fact, Bruce Lee practiced many Kung Fu Styles. Wing Chun is only one of those. Finally, his master didn’t teach Wing Chun to him any more. However, Wing Chun always claim that he is a student of Ip Man when Bruce Lee became famous. Wing Chun is only use Bruce Lee as a tool to convince people to practice it. I agree with the writer in his opinion.
Why Bruce Lee’s master didn’t teach Wing Chun to him in the advanced level?
Why Bruce Lee change his fighting style from Wing Chun to Jeet Koon Do, if the old one was good enough?
He said he found many weak points in the old one that’s why he develop new fighting style called Jeet Koon Do.
First off, “one” of the styles of Martial Art that Bruce was taught and used in his fight with Wong Jack Man in 1964 “Wing Chun” was not the reason I personally responded to this article. It was the way this article was presented by the writer to the reader.
My God man, “the writer bringing up the fight” that occurred between Bruce and Wong Jack Man which happened over 50 years ago. Then states Bruce lost?
At that time it was all about tradition and keeping face, so naturally Bruce and Wong Jack Man both knew about honor, tradition and the risk to teaching anyone who was not Chinese or for that matter Asian. And that is not the reason I brought this subject up. Btw I am sure all Bruce’s friends here in America and elsewhere have something to say about Bruce’s honor and reputation as a fighter and a human being.
Not to mention at that time it also included to losing face (if one was all caught up in honor.) And speaking from personal experience “I know of no one” who likes to lose at anything, so with that in mind, Linda gave us her version of the fight, and guess what?
Linda Lee Caldwell, Bruce’s ex-wife states Bruce won.
She stated Bruce was running after Wong, that Bruce got winded, and after the fight Bruce was depressed and exhausted because the fight took so long, it was at that point Bruce realized he had to change in order to be better, stronger and faster. Thus out of Bruce’s fight and his reevaluation, Jeet Kune Do was created and developed.
So getting back to the issue I want to present right now is why no one ever came forward to dispute the fact Bruce won? So the question remains, why wait decades after Bruce’s passing to this subject up?
Even Bruce told those in a interview he got into a fight with a Kung Fu Cat, Bruce never gave the details or event the name of the challenger. That all came after the fact of the fight itself. So here is a question. If anyone wanted to dispute this fact why didn’t they do so before Bruce passed on in 1973?
Why wait? Its a simple question and they know they should have done so sooner. Everybody wants to be somebody and challengers who want to make a name for themselves are always ready to knock the new kid off the block in order to do so.
Bruce started making a name for himself upon his arrival in America, and his teaching of Gung Fu and by 1966-67 Bruce Lee was household name in America by his status as Kato in the TV show the Green Hornet. So with that in mind at that time there was no other Martial Artist with a incredible, undeniable and undisputed reputation as Bruce.
Which brings me back to the fight of 1964 and reliable witness and I prefer to listen to Bruce’s ex-wife Linda, who told everyone “she was there” and that she had a eyewitness account, so now who are you going to believe and listen to?
If anyone claims to be a Bruce Lee fan does not recall the stories from those who were on hand during the making of the Enter of the Dragon may I suggest you check it out in regards to Bruce always getting challenged.
There was one individual who Bruce accepted a challenge from (witnessed by Bob Wall) and by all accounts the challenger was good and really trying to mess Bruce up. And Bruce just took the individual apart and then showed him where he made his mistakes.
There is no question Bruce was smart and he was good, check with anyone and they will tell you, he was amazingly fast, as he was strong for his size. Even Grandmaster of Tae Kwon Do Jhoon Rhee stated in a interview he would not ever fight Bruce.
So lets do some research (if one listens to) William Cheung a former senior classmate in Wing Chun and now Grand Sifu who is HQ and living in Australia who states he was was a trainer and senior student of Bruce, tells us he introduced Bruce to Wing Chun and Sifu Yipman in 1954.
So doing math that would have made Bruce 14 years of age. Moving on William goes on to state Bruce progressed quickly becoming a threat to the senior students. And by doing some simple research we know Bruce left Hong Kong when he turned 18 years of age.
So that gave Bruce at least 4 to 6 years to become extremely proficient in
Wing Chun Gung Fu under other senior students as well as any private lessons under Sifu Yip Man not to mention any other arts Bruce might wish to study along the way.
Bruce was smart and he was resourceful he took what he had and he made it better, and that is what it all boils down to. Bruce preached he hated styles and he even told us why. And the new fighting art Bruce developed was called Jeet Kune Do “The Way of the Intercepting Fist (or foot in Cantonese.)
And for those who did not know, this was showcased in a tv show called Longstreet.
Thank you for your good reply… This guys article was a bunch of biased opinions based on bullshit assumptions.
Here’s a good one with thorough research.
http://fightland.vice.com/blog/bruce-lee-vs-wong-jack-man-fact-fiction-and-the-birth-of-the-dragon
I’ve posted before regarding my perspective on whether or not Bruce Lee lost this fight (he didn’t). Obviously people are going back and forth and will continue to do so no matter what.
But, how about this. Most sane people can agree that if there was a rematch after Bruce had adapted, changed his body/weight trained,learned more effective combat strategies, and then fought Wong Jack Man…he would have decimated the guy. No contest.
I’d love to see one of Wong Jack Man’s top students go up against one of Dan Inosanto’s guys.
funny every asshole with a Macbook thinks he knows what happen! opinions are like assholes everyone has one you have no idea what your talking about quit watching kung fu movies stop posting articles get a life and f off asshole
Really? Well then you must be a pro Austin, all anyone has to do is just look at your reply to know you lead by example. Btw some of us just don’t watch, some of us have been doing this our entire lives, so anytime you care to teach me a lesson shit for brains just drop a comment and let me know.
Cal says:
Willow palm, you’re an idiot
Alex Chen says:
You’re not a writer – you’re a liar. You wrote based on ZERO fact.
This article about the fight – David Chin – the man who instigated the fight between Bruce Lee and Wong Jack Man – ADMITTED BRUCE’s camp was telling the truth!
luekeMia says:
Kung Fu is a constantly ever changing style. It evolves to create perfection.
Wong Jack Man says:
This is bullshit, Bruce Lee won the match in less than 3 minutes. This is verified through Bruce Lee’s wife. Complete bullshit… you should be ashamed for writing this shit article.
desire is weakness says:
Lee realize that sticking to his style is limiting his possibilities. Maybe he encountered that there is not point making extra movements just to hit and block the target. Ancient shaolin art is very different than what you have seen in movies, it is more practical when it comes to combat and it has more movements when it comes to exercise.
Payton Baldridge says:
I don’t understand your opinion on this fight at all. While it may be a valid opinion to believe the details given by others than Linda Lee, those other accounts don’t have Bruce losing the fight, they have them as a draw with both men too tired to continue. How you conclude from those accounts that Lee somehow lost to Wong makes no sense to me.
Wong Jack man lost big time and I will tell you why he’s not talked about he’s a nobody and Bruce Lee is a legend!
Jonathan Villa says:
Considering all the unwritten schoolyard rules, all indications point to WJM’s side being more believable, imo. Lee didnt keep the fight secret by bragging about his ass kicking of WJM, yet he never accepted the public challenge to prove his claim. Seems to me that if the fight was so one-sided on from Lee’s account, then he would have no problem proving that in public, since he didnt keep the fight news outcome secret either.
Its no secret or personal opinion that Bruce Lee was a marketing genius, so I can understand him using this type of hype to heighten his “legend” status, as it obviously worked. I dont blame Lee’s wife if she backed him up with her side of the story just as anyone else’s wife would’ve. She would’ve silly to not back him up, since it wouldn’t have benefited her family by not doing so.
By claiming victory and never proving it in public, its always gonna be a mystery and we’ll never know. Genius on Lee’s behalf, imho, but i personally think WJM’s side sounds more believable. Peace
Billy Lo says:
The problem is that what people want you to think, and the truth are very different. None of us were there. Don’t get me wrong, I love Bruce Lee films as much as anyone, but will not jump to defend him because I never really knew him, nor WJM.
I have read about this years ago, and am a Grand Master with students worldwide. What I do remember is that super fans of martial arts have rare footage of Bruce Lee training in WJM’s style soon after this ‘legendary battle’ is supposed to have taken place. I would love to see this footage to prove that Bruce did not hammer WJM to the ground in 3 seconds or whatever, but used the experience to learn from WJM.
This is not BS- the footage does exist. Hopefully, someone will put up a link. When I was a child, I would have said that Bruce won- no contest, but there are two sides to every story. Many people beat Bruce, and many did not like him as he was a bully when he was young. I’m not an expert in sugar coating things. If Bruce was so invincible, why did WJM inadvertently cause him to reassess his approach to martial arts, and form JKD? Why did Bruce ignore a rematch? And non-experts will hate this too, but there are huge flaws in JKD, and with most systems of combat. There are no real winners in fighting.
amanuel says:
I just read this article and its very good.but i doubt the fight lasted twenty minutes.on matter why brucee lee changed his style after the fight well i think he won but he may have nearly lost so to make up for his weak spots he changed his style so in future he will effectively and easly win. i think it took a lot out of him to beat wong jm but he bested him anyway but learned a lesson from it and perfected his style because the same stuff won’t always work you have to add to it and fix your weakness to be stronger and i think that fight was a wake up call even if he may have won he found out his mistakes or weak spots and changed his style.
Mered says:
The article tends to conclude in its own biased way, because for all we know the fight took place because Bruce Lee thought martial art to none Chinese students and other Chinese schools taught only to Chinese and the Chinese schools wanted to stop Bruce teaching non Chinese students. Because of this they challenge him, which eventual took place (I do not need to get in to the fight details, but) and after that Bruce Lee taught martial art to none Chinese students, so the fact Bruce continued teaching martial art implies that he won the fight.
Matthew Leon says:
OK so this article is wrote negativily just concluding the bruce lee is wrong hmm
Maybe he changed his fighting style because the fight was easy enough for him to control and practice his other fighying style? Maybe he needs more practice to see how it is in a real fight. Plus theres actually not enough evidence to conclude anything. He wanted to have the fight a secret and everyone co operated? Maybe he won so they gave him that respect.
Gates says:
You are the first writer to get it right! Bruce Lee did lose. I know because someone very close was their to help set it up and to witness the fight. Linda was there but didn’t understand anything. What they didn’t tell was that Bruce kept it a secret because he was hurt badly. He was sent to a hospital on the East Coast and return about 2 weeks later. Than Bruce talked all kinds of trash and lies! Wong said let him talk and lie because he know he will get his behind kicked again! People shouldn’t talk if they don’t have any real source of information of what really happen because it makes them look like a fool talking lies, like what Bruce did.
paytonb says:
Don’t buy your source for a minute. If Wong did win the fight and did not agree with Bruce claiming the win, he would have spoken up. It served absolutely no purpose for him to remain quiet about it and it’s a guarantee that others witnessing the fight would not have been so quiet about it had your story been the case.
This prove you don’t know Wong. And it also prove you don’t know any of the old timers! Where did you get your source from? What was said about Linda is true. Her story always changed. There is about 3 more old timers who are still living who knows that truth. If you were in the inside, you would have known the truth. It’s obvious you’re on the outside and got only scrap and what they want the outsiders to know. Have you ever wonder why a male from Bruce lineage is no longer?
Gates you are just a Bruce Lee Hater I agree with paytonb Wong didn’t try hard enough to keep his version of the story true and wouldn’t give his words to his students about it which mean Bruce Lee beat him.
ray nota says:
I’m a big fan of Bruce Lee, And If he says he beat this “kung fu cat,” then he calmied victory reguardless what opinions or ideas of the is said. His opponent stated he wanted a rematch, that sure says he wasn’t satisfied with his techniques as well. Bruces supporters where their to witness the brawl, if they declare that Bruce fought it out until his hands bruised and his opponent “says he had enough,” then there’s no need to tarnish a man’ reputation as one of the Greatest Martial Arts that ever lived! By the way who is Wong Jack Man, obvious he’s nobody famous. Bruce is not around to back up his version of the fight, but Wong Jack Man can talk all the shit he wants to too, just to be recognized; too late now his time has passed! Should of said something long ago when Bruce was still around but he remained silent. Thats my opinion, peace…. R.I.P. Bruce…
Kick says:
Well you just proved how much you know! Bruce had only his wife and two of his buddies. Bruce was the one who called our Wong and Wong was the one who sent him to the hospital. That’s why they kept low for almost a month. Wong is a well known humble man but a very well known street fighter. You got a lot to learn and it’s obvious you don’t know any of the old timers who were their. Bruce got his ass kicked and he still open his mouth but kept far away from Wong. Know your sources before you talk because you should just like Bruce! And you might get your ass kick like his.
Kick your sources are made up Bruce Lee kicked Wongs ass leaving Wong to stay quiet about the fight even Leo Fong who wasn’t at the fight but witnessed Wong hide in the Diner he worked at when he and Bruce showed up. Know your sources before you talk because you should just like Wong! And you might get your ass kick like his.
If Wong was so well known as a street fighter why is there not many books about him the fact Wong had nothing to do with Showdown in Oakland proves Wong doesn’t want to talk about the fight. The stories of Wongs side didn’t resurface until after Bruce Lee’s death
DrMBachJr says:
Better article here, written about a year ago:
Dante-X says:
Agreed and thank you for recommending the article! With due respect to the author of “Bruce Lee Battle that He Lost!” the linked article “Bruce Lee vs. Wong Jack Man: Fact, Fiction and the Birth of the Dragon” is a much better read in terms of content, style, research and coherency. It includes interesting take on motivation and insights based on Lee’s reported personality and some other fights and conflicts along the way.
Thank you to both authors for taking a crack at this mysterious piece of history that resides in the hearts of many martial artists.
john3:16 says:
Wong Jack Man is stupid! I can beat him when his alive, that SOB.
Wong was a real kung-fu teacher, its a way of life…. humbleness makes you great – Bruce was affected by Western life .. his way was just fighting
Colin Partridge says:
Well what can I say you lot deserve a king foo medal, both great people and have gave a lot. Birth of the dragon good film that’s the only reason ive just read a lot of people’s over excited apinion of these 2 chaps. Enjoy and watch the film
Daryle Elmore says:
Does anybody have proof of this call for a rematch, I read an unbiased article and theactuall comment was something along the lines that WJM said the chest time he fights in a challenge it would be a public fight, that is not a calling out, David Chin who was WJM witness also saud the fight was about 7 minutes, Bruce Lee was aggressive with his attacks, WJM was in the defense & stumbled over a step and Bruce jumped on top of him and began punching him in the face until he submitted
Regarding the fight. Bruce tried to sneak attack by throwing a fast punch to Jack but didn’t work. Jack was too powerful for Bruce. Bruce couldn’t handle his hits and he did get hurt! Bruce got hurt badly so they send him to a hospital on the East Coast to avoid publicity. The fight was over in 10 minutes if it wasn’t for Bruce’s sidekicks stopping the fight. The senior’s know about this but the one’s who don’t know still telling lies that Bruce won which is far from the truth! Jack was humble while Bruce still opens his mouth! Linda was not concern but shamed!
We don’t have any proof Bruce was sent to the hospital because of Wong. We also don’t have any proof Wong was ever that good of a fighter if he couldn’t beat Bruce in 10 minutes usually it’s the more experienced fighter that beats the lesser one in less time but considering Wong went to the ground and Bruce pounded his head in.
I can tell most people don’t know the true story. First I know 3 men who were there to witness the fight. Also Bruce never did drop Wong. Wong was to powerful for Bruce. he really hurt Bruce inside and out. Linda cried to stop the fight. Bruce was really hurt. Wong was nice enough to help Bruce get out of State to get medical attention because Bruce refuse to get medical help in Cali! I know the men who was there. It was Wong who beat on Bruce body which hurt him internally. Wong was to powerful for Bruce.
Killa, you should bottle up and sell that WJM kool-aid you’ve been drinking, cause it’s got some serious brainwashing power!
It’s clear you made up that part of the story because you desperately want to make up anything to not make Bruce Lee win the fight.
Wong never said he sent Bruce Lee to the hospital because he knows he can’t make up that part of his story. Wong did way himself and it was agreed on that wong went to the ground with Bruce Lee on top. Bruce Lee’s friends confronted Wong at the restaurant where he worked at only to have one of Wongs co workers say he disappeared despite it being his time to work. Wong doesn’t speak about the fight because ultimately he knew deep down he lost and would rather not repeat the same thing again, Wongs own words he regretted the fight and would rather not do it again. If you knew the people who were there why don’t you have an article or documentary about them.
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Bob Garrett says:
Wong Jack Man won the “fight” … Wong challenged Lee to a public fight from day one. His account of the private altercation was printed in the Chinese Pacific Weekly.
Lee wanted a private “friendly sparring session” before they fought publicly. If it went well they could have a public fight. The premise was to find out if Wong was a worthy opponent for such a fight. What happened is Lee got dirty and tried to knock Wong out. Lee went for the throat, eyes, and kicks to the groin. Lee asked for an agreement that Wong wouldn’t use his deadly kicks in the session. Wong agreed to just use hand technique. He said he was very tempted to use kicks because of Lee’s all-out assault, but he kept his word.
What happened is Wong focused on defense and delivered some significant punches to Lee’s head and body, but never tried to do any real damage. Wong really wanted that public fight. Wong was the skinnier and lighter man, but he did more damage and was in control after the first minute which took him by surprise. Lee quit after maybe 15 minutes minutes saying “That’s good. That’s enough.” Wong desisted any further attack on Lee. It was Lee who asked Wong not to talk about their match and Wong agreed, still hoping for a real fight.
I believe Lee never wanted to publicly fight anyone he wasn’t absolutely positive he could beat. That’s why he never fought anyone in public. This little “sparring session” was very secretive to find out if he could win. Wong said nothing about the encounter until Lee bragged publicly about winning when he didn’t. Wong then went public with his version of the fight in the Chinese Public Weekly. At the end of the article Wong publicly challenged Lee to a fight that fight fans could attend in the thousands – if Lee disputed Wong’s version of the fight. Obviously Lee did NOT want to fight Wong for real.
Bob Garret so much of what you’ve said does not match Wongs account at all. Bruce never asked Wong to hold back all we heard was excuses from Wong saying he had to hold back on kicks due to the ability to kill which has never been proven by Wong. Wong could not be on the defensive for that long Bruce would’ve tired out in 5-10 minutes and yet Wong ended up being put to the ground and having his head repeatedly pounded by Bruce’s punches in which Wong surrendered.
When Bruce went on to brag about his victory over a “Kung fu Cat” he never mentioned Wongs name but Wong came out and decided to write his version of the story. If Wong had won the fight why would he come out and defend his story when he wasn’t the Kung Fu cat Bruce Lee beat. Shouldn’t Wong just say “That guy Bruce beat wasn’t me our fight was entirely different.”
Perhaps Wong was ashamed for getting beat by a Kung fu fighter with less years of training than him. Wong has been keeping quiet about the fight ever since.
Once again this shows how much of the truth you know. I know 3 men who were present to witness the fight along with Linda. Wong hurt Bruce Internally. Bruce couldn’t take any more body hits. Bruce was shame if he is seen at a local hospital so Wong was nice enough to help Bruce get medical attention in another State. There a lot many of you don’t know except from rumors. It a shame and sad
Killa Once again this shows how much of the truth you know.
Haven’t posted here for a long long time but you’re correct, people just make up any BS they feel like about the fight. It’s was never a contentious issue, until Social Media and Internet Forums took off and then any fool gets an opinion or just makes up complete nonsense, like the fight lasting for 30 minutes. Bruce won the fight but not in a convincing way by his own admission. The end.
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Bvshr says:
It’s rather pointless to argue with Bruce Lee disciples
Whether or not Wong Jack Man beat Bruce or not is anyone’s guess
Bruce Lee was a hot head braggart, he makes ignorant statements
Like “A man with a knife is at a disadvantage against an unarmed Martial Artist”wrong answer!!!
I also suspect he was the Steven Segal of his time because he never fought professionally
But was quick to put his name alongside the likes of Chuck Norris, Joe Lewis etc etc
He never fought but “He was good” according to Chuck Norris, I believe in the beginning Bruce used them to gain notoriety for himself, but the manufacture-ring of JKD was a marketing Tool. I also think that people with even the briefest contact with Lee were smart enough to ride the wave of popularity that Bruce Lee left after his death.
He was a decent street fighter as a result of his time in the gangs on the streets of China
I get nauseous when I hear people talk of his super human abilities. And I don’t believe he would have fared well against a trained killer like W.E Fairbairn, he was a flash in the pan of pop culture in 1973 who died before his time which gave him
Immortality and sainthood and given another 100 years there will most likely be cults and or religions based upon him. Did he beat Wong Jack Man!?!?! It’s irrelevant now almost 50 years after his death. The man borrowed and stole from anyone who would talk to him or spar with him. He’s a media wonder who’s been preserved well past his shelf life. If he would have lived they would have crowned a new king and he would have been forgotten a long time ago…..
Well I guess you can tell that to that to the ‘real martial artists and fighters’ who have high praise for Bruce Lee which include Mike Tyson, Manny Pacquiao, Sugar Ray Leonard, Ray Mancini, Connor Mc Gregor, Jon Jones, Lyoto Machida, Georges St Pierre, Eddie Bravo, Ben Saunders, Anderson Silva, Dana White,.. and on and on. Bruce Lee had numerous fights throughout his life, but I suppose ’21st Century’ standards are such that if it these events weren’t on Pay Per View, ESPN or YouTube, they never occurred. The UFC did not exist till 1993, so I suppose it’s Bruce Lee’s fault he died 20 yrs prior to satisfy all the doubters. I can only suggest that the ‘doubters’ u correspond with Dan Inosanto, Gene Lebell, Hayward Nishioka, Kareem Abdul AJabbar, Taky Kimura, Doug Palmer, Bob Wall, Jackie Chan…if you want testimony as to Bruce Lee’s abilities in real life experience. I will take the word of all these aforementioned fighters, martial artist regarding the merits of Bruce Lee, before I will any ‘keyboard warriors,’ who base their continuing criticism on refusing to do actual research for the truth.
You list a whole bunch of people who never saw Bruce fight anyone or saw videos of Bruce ever fight anyone. Ever notice that none of the research has resulted in anyone locating anybody that ever fought Bruce save Wong Jack Man? As for numerous fights you claim you think that someone would have been able to find evidence of this, at best you have him fighting random nobodies of unknown skills when he was a kid. Logic dictates that his first real fight was with WJM who despite not being a skilled fighter forced Bruce to realize his limitations. Joe Lewis who knew Bruce’s skills stated that Bruce was not a fighter, Bob Wall who also knew Bruce said his ego wouldnt allow him to fight because he couldnt stand losing.
Linda Lee as well as Dan Inosanto, Taky Kimura have seen Bruce Lee fight. These are the people still alive. A number of his previous students have watched him fight but are now deceased. Bruce Lee did not fight in Karate tournaments of his day as he called them ‘nothing but glorified games of tag,’or ‘dry land swimming.’ Martial artist’s did not make full contact and were stopped by the referee’s if they scored a point. Bruce Lee enjoyed attending boxing matches much more so because a fighter could really test their skills on the other hand. You cannot blame Lee for being born before the UFC. You mention Joe Lewis and Bob Wall. I suggest you watch an interview on You Tube of Joe Lewis where he speaks of Bruce Lee’s speed and skills, from 06/14/15. As for Bob Wall I suggest you look up on Bruce Lee’s website for the date 04/20/18, where his comments are noted re; Lee’s skills. Gene Lebell has stated that in his time Bruce Lee was ‘the best martial artist.’ Jim Kelly has said that ‘Bruce Lee was the greatest martial artist he ever saw.’ These are all real people with real experiences with him. I mentioned all those aforementioned fighters/martial artists to lend credibility to their opinions as fighters and what they saw in Bruce Lee. They would not have stated their impressions, admiration for him, if they did not believe he was not the real deal. What advantage would they have on stating anything positive about Lee ? No money, or endorsements there for the taking on their part. Fighters/real martial artists know other good/great ones when they see them(because that is what they do for a living). I am a martial artist as well and have spoken to people who actually knew Lee,and I went away convinced that he was very highly skilled and a legitimately extraordinarily martial artist. The nay sayers can state what they want, but I’ve done ‘my homework’on the man and I’d rather believe the credibility of the real fighters/martial artists, who came to the same conclusion I did. Bruce Lee was no phony.
You are confusing being a great Martial Artist with being a fighter. Ever notice that many of those people call Bruce a great Martial Artist without saying he was a fighter?
So you dont find it telling that Linda (wife) and Dan and Taky (students) are pretty much the only ones who say they saw Bruce fight and yet cant tell you the skill level or they saw him fight some one who wasnt a fighter? Nobody is arguing that Bruce didnt fight random nobodies who had no skills. In fact there are stories of him beating up extra’s on sets, etc. I suggest you do some research and notice the fact that the only person ever verified to have fought Bruce Lee was Wong Jack Man, who wasnt known to be a skilled fighter. BTW, that single fight caused him to rethink his whole approach to Martial Arts, which logic tells you would have happened earlier if he had been fighting anyone of any skills. Joe Lewis and Bob Wall stated that Bruce was not a fighter….so those other things are not relevant.
I suggest you research Jesse Glover, James Demile, Dan Inosanto, Jerry Poteet, Doug Palmer, Ted Wong, Jackie Chan, Larry Hartsell, George Dillman among others, who did witness Bruce Lee actually fighting other known black belts, some were even boxers, like James Demile, as well. I spoke to several people as well who were well seasoned martial artists and witnessed numerous sparring sessions Bruce Lee had with seasoned black belt martial artists in his day, and they were all outmatched by his speed and power. These sparring sessions were with protective gear of the day, but real full contact was the order of the day to test their skills. Part the problem is that many of these people are now deceased and you will have to fond their accounts via you tube or in written form, but they are there. I’ve researched it for over 40 years now. No, I am not confusing great martial artist with fighter. In my world a great martial artist can fight. The fact that Bruce Lee has no ‘fight record’ is irrelevant to me. How could he when there was no format for martial artists to do that with in his day ?, except for the street or real sparring sessions in a dojo/kwoon etc,.. I have known a number of people in my lifetime who are not martial artists, MMA guys, but can fight for sure. Bob Wall and Joe Lewis admit they could not match Bruce Lee’s speed or power. Joe Lewis had a fight record in the ring. but if he could not match Lee’s skill set, what does that say about him ?,…regardless of what he says about Lee. That fact of the matter is that there were people who had jealousies towards Bruce Lee(Chuck Norris being the biggest), and will not admit that a small Chinese man, even unofficially ranked in his own traditional system, Wing Chun, could just “shut them down”(Bob Wall’s words)at will while sparring with them. And that they were all classically trained in numerous martial arts systems, but still couldn’t keep up with him. They came to receive instruction from him, not the other way around, otherwise why would Chuck Norris, Joe Lewis and Mike Stone, the biggest karate stars of their day arguably, waste their precious time with this guy ? I repeat again, I have done my homework and I am satisfied as to this man. you will not convince me otherwise, nor anyone else, as I will not sway you either. I stand by my research, the people I have spoken with and my own martial arts experience.
Listing a bunch of his students who as to this day have not been able to verify anyone that Bruce Lee ever fought with except Wong Jack Man isnt really evidence. Even the so called fights they describe are not against anyone of any known skills, nor do they even sound like real fights. The Pro’s like Joe Lewis and Mike Stone who trained with him said they never sparred with him and never even saw him spar. Joe said Bruce only sparred with his students. I dont doubt he beat up some unskilled fighters thats why nobody can name them or verify any of these claims.
Just to point out , using known frauds like Dillman and DeMile to make your point doesnt serve you well. In fact it makes me wonder about your knowledge of those involved in the Martial Arts.
Yes, I have heard of ‘the frauds’,.. but then again I have also heard that some of Bruce Lee Wing Chun contemporaries of his time were also jealous of him, did not like how Lee purportedly did not give enough credit to Wing Chun(in their view), and or simply did not like that he was not full blooded Chinese. So who’s a fraud and who’s credible ? I am fortunate enough to have spoken to a number of people on Lee throughout the years to have acquired what I consider credible history on him. Those include, Shannon Lee, Larry Hartsell, Jim Kelly, Van Williams, Jerry Poteet, Doug Palmer, Richard Bustillo, Hayward Nishioka, and Felix Macias, among the people I can recall. I am very grateful to have spoken to all these individuals at different times through the years, particularly the ones who are now passed.
“He was a decent street fighter as a result of his time in the gangs on the streets of China”.
You mean Hong Kong. There is no evidence that Bruce was involved in gangs, its easy to forget that he was a famous child actor and lived a spoiled life, with a personal driver and maids and attended private schools.
I’m one of those people who HAVE done some research. My Sigung in Ving Tsun was the late Wong Shun Leung, who was Bruce’s SiHing in Yip Man’s school and Bruce’s trainer for at least a year before Bruce left to Seattle, and I spoke to him in Hong Kong, and in London, about Bruce and his abilities. And you spoke with whom?
Part of the problem talking to his students and family that perpetuate the myths, I talked with Dan Inosanto and Richard Bustillo some years back and when pressed about who Bruce actually fought they would basically say they took it on faith. At most you have some people talk about stories of random nobodies that cant be verified as having actually fought Bruce. So yea, its really a matter of faith and not actual evidence.
Greg…you talked to someone who has a vested interest in perpetuating the myth….what did he say about Bruce moving away from Wing Chun?
jeff vincent says:
Chinese martial arts are a joke anyway. Both Bruce and Wong would have lost to a good
boxer or wrestler. IMHO a 125 lb thai champion would have opened a can of whoop ass
on either of them. What evidence is there that Wong really fought?
There is not any evidence that WJM was a proven fighter. In fact if you read his explanations for fighting the way he did he sounded like a rank amateur.
Bruce had opportunity to fight Muay Thai fights when he was in Thailand. In those days it was known that the Thai fighters destroyed all the Kung Fu fighters who faced them.
Doriyan Doriyan says:
I do agree that Bruce is strong, It’s definitely an epic battle to see Bruce Lee fighting with a shaolin monk, Wong Jack man being the kung Fu master
Wong Jack Man was not a Shaolin Monk…nor was he a master..he was a young man.
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