Altercation on the pass →
Altercation on the pass
Author Topic: Altercation on the pass (Read 27655 times)
Well known pathologist involved with Dyatlov case, Eduard Tumanov, who is participant in the current expedition with the prosecutor's office, is pushing a theory that hikers took part in a fight, either between them or with outsiders. He is not partial to any of the two versions. His observations are purely based on the autopsy reports and mainly what is missing from them. Judging from the official autopsy records, Dyatlov group members have injuries sustained perhaps a day or two before the onset of death. We are talking abrasions and bruises, common for injuries from blunt objects: a fist, a branch, any solid blunt object. On the face and hands there are abrasions covered with a crust, bruises turning green. This indicates that the duration of the injury is greater than those minutes, hours that could have occurred before their deaths. And they could be sustained in a fight, or in some other events. Most likely, the group came into conflict with someone in the area of the pass.
Here is a closer look at the injuries on Krivonischenko, who was found together with Doroshenko near an extinct fire under cedar. The lower left half of the pants is missing to the level of the knee joint. The edges of the underpants fabric at the edges are uneven with the charring of the fabric. It turns out that the lower left half of the pants burned on the leg. Why and how could this happen?
Further multiple abrasions on the body. The site of sedimentation in the center of the frontal region. In the left temporal region there are two abrasions of red-brown color. The area from the right temple to the nape has an internal hemorrhage. And this suggests a strong blow or blows to the temporal and rear region of the head. But for some reason, the expert does not describe external damage to the right temporal region. And this is amazing. There should be a visible bruise.
Perhaps a few punches with a fist, or a hard blunt object. And here is another very interesting detail. The rear of the right hand in Krivonischenko, as the expert wrote, is swollen. In the area of the metacarpophalangeal joints (knuckles), the soft tissues are whitish-gray in color, the fingers are brown-violet. On the back of these fingers minor skin abrasions. This picture is likely to indicate a fight. Krivonischenko was beaten on the head and he hit his right fist. We read further: on the middle phalanx of the third finger, the defect of the epidermis, in shape and size coincides with that found in the oral cavity. It turns out that Krivonischenko bit off a piece of skin from his finger. Krivonischenko could have been beaten and tortured. Probably, he couldn't stand the pain so he bit off his skin. And here's another mystery. On the middle phalanx of the fourth, fifth fingers skin wound, tight to the touch. With charring. Again, it is not clear what kind of skin wound? An expert describes a burn? But if he described the burn, he would have to write what form he was and there are many more details. And here it is just like a wound, and with charring.
Tumanov's opinion is that all bodies should be exhumed and subjected to a new full autopsy for missed or omitted on purpose details. xHe is pointing at the following discrepancies and violations when the bodies were first protocoled:
When first the bodies were found there should be a forensic expert present to observe the position and overall condition of the bodies the way they were discovered. The presence and localization of deformities and the condition of the skin as a whole are not described, visible lesions on the body are described only partially. The clothes and the position of the corpses are described very superficially.
No forensic survey of the scene of the incident was carried out, photos were uninformative, closer in execution to artistic shooting than to criminalistic.
The conclusions in the first five autopsy reports were copy/pasted:
"... the death of Doroshenko (or Krivonischenko, Kolmogorova, Dyatlova, Slobodina) was caused by low temperature, as evidenced by swelling of the meninges, a sharp replenishment of the internal organs, overflow of dark blood of the heart cavities, the presence of Vishnevsky spots on the gastric mucosa, frostbite fingers of limbs ... ".
In each of the nine acts, the expert indicates that pieces of internal organs were taken for histological examination, but only the last four have results in the criminal case - N. V. Thibeaux-Brignolle , A. S. Kolevatov , A. A. Zolotaryov and L. A. Dubinina. It can be assumed that the histology of the first five bodies was deliberately concealed, as it was clearly more informative than that of the bodies found two months later.
In each of the nine autopsy reports, Vozrozhdenny writes that pieces of internal organs were taken for a forensic chemical study. But in the materials of the case there is not a single result of the forensic chemical test that should at least show the presence or absence of alcohol. There is more information in this fact - for alcohol presence are collected blood and urine. Vozrozhdenny indicates that parts of the internal organs were taken for the forensic chemical examination. This means that he sent the samples for a forensic chemical testing not only for alcohol, but also for the presence of poisons. 6. And finally, the location of livor mortis spots does not coincide with the position of some corpses at the time of their discovery. Rustem Slobodin and Yuri Doroshenko were found face down, and the expert described the livor mortis spots on the back of their bodies. Zinaida Kolmogorova has the same description, which, as stated in the examination certificate, was found lying on her side. There is controversy on this point.
In "Судебно-медицинское исследование тела Рустема Слободина. Незаданные вопросы и неполученные ответы..." ("Forensic examination of the body of Rustem Slobodin. Answers not received on questions not asked...") - scroll to the bottom, the author speculates that the medical examiner Vozrozhdenny mistook frostbite erythema for livor mortis. Article is citing the forensic bible at the time "Forensic medicine" 1953 by M. I. Rayski where there is no mentioning of frostbite erythema but on p. 233 it says that livor mortis in frozen cadavers change color when carried in a warm room from purple to light red, and then darken again. Same thing happens with frostbite erythema when defrosting a corpse. So the author of the article says "it is not surprising that the medical examiner Vozrozhdenny thought that he sees livor mortis spots".
Re: Altercation on the pass
This theory has weak points.
As „the location of rigor mortis spots does not coincide with the position of some corpses at the time of their discover“
- I think the bodies were turned after death so that others could make sure if they were really dead and also be able to take their clothes.
„Dyatlov group members have injuries sustained perhaps a day or two before the onset of death“
- If they had a fight before, they would certainly have wrote about it in their diary. On the contrary, it is evident from the diary as well as photos that a good friendship ruled there.
Quote from: Monika on April 08, 2019, 11:59:57 PM
The absence of evidence of the fight in the diary is not an evidence that the fight did not happen. We should stick to evidence when there is inconsistency with written or spoken statements. Let's wait for further details.
Nigel Evans
From memory it was clear (bits of clothing and even flesh?) that someone had fallen down the cedar quite badly. Given Yuri K's burns he is the obvious candidate for falling, becoming concussed on landing for long enough to burn his hands or legs. Else it was something more "exotic".
I agree with the female Russian criminologist who believes it was murder. The nature of the injuries indicate a fight. But then it becomes by whom? I think the autopsy reports were purposefully edited. Until you get the true complete one the speculation will be never ending. That foot long bruise on Zina's side. Who know really when they died? Ratikin's book isn't in English and the translations seem very wordy and meandering. I wish there was a concise interview with him.
I managed to read Rakitins book with google translate and ir was almost fine. First part of the book where he describes the autopsies and families and background of the hikers is really good and points out at interesting facts.
Second part in opinion is more like a fiction novel about spies. There are too many speculations and details that are impossible to be assumed. He could have written only that he thinks it was a controled delivery gone wrong . But maybe he wanted to make the book longer and included that long story of action battle and helicopters and all.
Anyway his way of thinking and making observations was very logical so I liked his theory and the way he cobcludes it.
Other author I liked is Svetlana Oss, again murder theory but supposibg that Khanty did it. Again strogest arguments are the autopsies.
Rakitin.
Some people in the US blame Russia for everything, some people in Russia blame the US for everything.
They seem to have attempted the original plan the day before of going through the actual pass but failed due to conditions. From memory a diary talks of being above the tree line. The failure is understandable as they were curiously poorly equipped for higher ground, no crampons and only Semyon had an ice axe. So it's plausible that they picked up some scratches in the attempt before giving up, descending and shedding weight with the labaz.
Clacon
Are we assuming because there are no diary entries passed the 31st that they must have died on the 1st or 2nd?
I mean, what if they died later (not too much later, just later enough that the bruising and wounds scabbing can be accounted for) but were too incapacitated to write in their diaries because they were taken hostage or were fighting to survive?
tekumze
All Clacon questions are also my interest. And I agree with all his thoughts. So I do not have anything to add here. In order to answer these questions we need a new autopsy.
Mr. Tuman is a real person to re-conduct an autopsy of all corpses. Then the image of the case would be much clearer. But will this happen? This is the main question?
Injuries and damage to clothing could also have been caused by some kind of ELECTRICAL EVENT.
The altercation scenario fits with simple credible explanation. It seems to me that the group were trying to get away from someone? If they were running and hiding from someone then it's unlikely that the two Yuris would have lit a fire. So who lit it? The Yuris look like they claimed the cedar - maybe to stay out of reach of someone.
What if.....
Since there were other university student groups in the general area, they saw a fire in the woods from the tent and went to say hello to their buddies. BAD IDEA
I mean, if Igor was the one who was the threat, then maybe he died before the Yuri's started the fire....and....they couldn't find their way back to the tent??
But why not TRY to go back to the tent anyways to get the ice ax or clothes or whatever?
And I think they climbed the tree to try to find the tent, not because someone was after them (just sounds comical to me....you would only climb a tree to get away from something that couldn't climb a tree, wouldn't you?)
But...if Igor tried to climb the tree, he would have been kicked in the face by the Yuris (may be evidence of this, but maybe more severe than his reported injuries….unless he was going to burn them with a log from the fire that he would have had to wait a while to get lit....I don't know....they sat up in that tree all that time?? Waiting for Igor to get frozen stuff to burn while he was threatening to burn them out of the tree once he gets a log lit to poke them with?? I don't think this is very plausible....also how to explain the Yuri D's cinged hair?
…..So the threat must have stayed at the tent....
Or Igor, Rustem and Zina were at the tent a while before coming down the slope and eventually perishing due to them fighting up at the tent???
…...Or the Yuris started the fire and then went up the tree when they heard someone approaching???
HEEEELLPPPPP!!!! BRAIN HURTY REAL BAD GOING DOWN THE RABBIT HOLE
What proof is there that any of the 9 started the fire?
To complement Eduard Tumanov's ideas, here is something to read :
••• Summary : (February 3, 2020)
Assumption of fatal altercations caused by one mistake with a test of a noxious military psychostimulant.
I thank Teddy for gathering all these informations about DPI (Dyatlov Pass Incident) and also the many others contributors for their considerations which are both informative and extensive.
So in my humble opinion it is the dramatic result of a military test of Soviet Army or KGB...
But not an attempt to experiment with a new weapon such as bomb, rocket, missile, explosive, toxic gas, spreading radioactive products or others conventional processes of the same kind !
It was the design office in charge of research in pharmacology (chemistry and pharmacy) of the Soviet army or KGB that took advantage of the expedition of this group of trained hikers to experiment with the effects of a new and unknown psycho-stimulant, apparently promising and very effective, in real life conditions.
Against all odds, the result of this seemling harmless experiment turned out to be a shameful disaster: precisely two violent hand-to-hand fights in the cold that resulted in these nine mysterious deaths.
Then the Soviet authorities tried, as best as they could, to hide this ridiculous and unglamorous failure.
(Note that in all countries officials are used to concealing their mistakes and failures).
••• Introduction :
After reading a significant part of the many interesting opinions and theories on the Dyatlovpass.com website, I note that no satisfactory explanation has been found so far (5 February 2020).
I propose my own explanation, my working hypothesis.
Yes ! It is a pure speculation as the Global Moderator Loose}{Cannon and others...(like Per Inge Oestmoen) will say. But I think it is pure speculation that can explain everything. (i.e. my reconstruction is able to give a rational explanation to the totality of what is exposed on this website).
My arguments (which unfortunately are long) are contained in 5 chapters, which should be read in order.
- Chapters 1 and 2 * ** --> Are not irrelevant, despite appearances. They contain some general informations that are useful for understanding what happens next.
All the facts are correct unless mistaken and play a role, however the reader in a hurry will be able to read quickly.
- In chapters 3 et 4 *** **** --> On the contrary, in order to make the reading easier and more lively I have added some small imaginary precisions which are obviously unverifiable but which are simply plausible. (In other words, I present my theory in a romanticized form).
But it is the broad outline of the explanation that counts, not the unimportant details.
- Chapter 5 --> ***** Consists of unfinished add-ons. It could be entitled : how my mental mechanisms were channeled by psychological and historical intuition...
••• Preliminary warning :
I apologize for my clumsy writing and my many mistakes in the English language.
This is an overview that would need to be further developed by searching for additional references. One difficulty is that some informations are still considered to be military secrets of USSR. (Paradoxically, interesting material on USSR military researches could perhaps be found on US political intelligence websites - but I did not search).
• Obviously the reader will have to mentally add almost everywhere : "In my opinion...it is likely that......to set the ideas this could be for example...."
Now I am awaiting and hoping for objections and rectifications and I am preparing to answer them....
* Chapter 1 *
To convince the reader that in 1959 there were certainly research programs on psychostimulants in the USSR simply because the use of psychostimulant medications is part of the means available to a modern army.
During the period of Khrushchev's thaw, it was a period of peaceful coexistence but also of cold war with intense military research for the development of all kinds of weapons.
Note: To explain this great militarization, Marcel Conche (French philosopher) - has long since forcefully reminded us that a large part of the "defects" of the USSR were "due to the capitalist encirclement and to the hallucinating and constant hostility that the capitalist countries concretely manifested to it from the start, against what presented itself as communism". They will have forced it, for example, to considerably develop its military industry to the detriment of a socially useful economy.
* {1}.§-1-) *
There were military studies and achievements that cannot be camouflaged (or that want to be shown because they are impressive) and that are therefore known. Some examples of success stories in this area up to 1959 :
- The R-7 Semiorka space launcher sent out the first artificial satellite, Sputnik 1, on October 4, 1957. (Dazzling demonstration of the USSR's superiority in the space field);
- The explosion of a lithium 6 deuteride H-bomb, therefore militarizable, code-named RDS-37, took place on November 22, 1954;
- The R-12 Dvina SS-4 Sandal, was the first Soviet strategic missile using storable propellants and a completely autonomous inertial guidance system;
- The air force had some very effective : MiG 15, MiG 17, MiG 21 Fishbed, supersonic fighters jets;
- The increase of the range of action thanks to in-flight refuelling by the Tupolev Tu-16Z Badger powered by the competitive Toumanski R-11-300 turbojets;
- The T54 and T55 tanks were accepted for service in the Soviet Army by the decree of the Ministry of Defense on May 24, 1958, under the name Objekt 155;
- Soviets” research and development had advanced to such a degree that they were able to build nuclear powered (lead-bismuth coolant) submarines made of light-weight titanium alloy that surpassed all others in speed and diving depth.. (Project 705 Alpha Class, proposed in 1957 by A.B.Petrov and M.G.Rusanov);
- .......etc.
But there were also developments that only required simple and (relatively) inexpensive installations and which, as a result, could easily remain secret. The corresponding governement programs have remained secret or are not declassified until now.
Some informations about these works originates mainly from indirect sources, such as interviews of participating persons - such as Kanatzhan Alibekov(1950-), solitary scientific and popular publications, reports (published in USA !) of "Centers for Disease Control and Prevention".
In this category you can put all kinds of projects and improvements that could take the opponents by surprise. This includes, but is not limited to, biological (BW) and chemical (CW) weapons of mass destruction, which are terrifying but delicate and difficult to use in practice.
Most analyts condemn the use of biological(BW) and chemical weapons (CW) during wartime as a war crime (or crime against humanity if widespread) because they kill civilians. In addition, their use is prohibited by international agreements.
/1/ * BW : Biological warfare agents using bacteriological strains highly pathogenic and contagious
(Variola major:smallpox, Bacillus anthracis:anthrax, Rickettsia prowazekii:exanthematic thyphus, Yersinia pestis:plague, Francisella tularensis:tularaemia,...) and "mid spectrum agents" :toxins, biotoxins and others violent poisons(botulinum toxin, ricin,....).
The Soviet Union began a biological weapons program in the 1920s. During the Second World War, Joseph Stalin was forced to move his biological warfare (BW) facilities out of the way of the advancing German forces.
At the conclusion of the war, Soviet specialists took advantage of the results of the Japanese unit 731 ---> Shiro Ishii (1892-1959) and those of the German Posen Institute ---> Kurt Blome (1894-1969).
Then the Soviet BW effort became a huge program, comprising various institutions under different ministries along with commercial facilities (collectively known as Biopreparat after 1973. On 2 April 1979, spores of anthrax were accidentally released from the military compound 19a near the closed city of Sverdlovsk).
/2/ * CW : Chemical weapons : Lethal agents (and also less-lethal weapons and harassing agents).
Chemical warfare (CW) involves using the toxic properties of chemical substances as weapons.
- Combat gases or toxic substances sometimes dispersed by aerozilisation). For instances : Tabun (GA), Sarin (GB), Soman (GD), Cyclosarin, Edemo(VM), venomous agent X....
Rather usable by KGB (cf. the book: Vil Sultanovich Mirzayanov, "an insider's chronicle of the russian chemical weapons program").
- Poisons and very toxic products : dioxines, ricine, Novichok agent, thallium, alpha-amanitin...etc.
During the period of Khrushchev's thaw it was Vladimir Naumov who led the research on poisons in the "laboratory 12".
There are also others researches and developments in the military field that are not morally reprehensible.
For the leaders of a country, there is one obvious truth :
Tactical superiority depends on the weapons available but also on the fighting qualities of the men who use them.
In addition to physical strength and endurance, combat requires mental agility and focus. Situational awareness, sound decision-making and rapid responses all depend on strong cognition.
It must also be anticipated that military operations will inevitably disrupt sleep and force soldiers to spend long periods of time without sleep, when lack of sleep is a major detriment to their cognitive functioning.
Systematic combat training requires a great deal of time, which in actual historical circumstances is rarely possible.
The economic aspects of advanced military training cannot be overlooked. Thus, for example, it is accepted in military staffs that a aircraft pilot is more difficult to replace than the aircraft itself.
For the responsible leaders of a country there is therefore an obvious consequence :
"Soldier enhancements, through biological augmentation of human capabilities, reduces warfighter risk by providing tactical advantages over the enemy“
Here you have to differentiate between competitive sports and situations where it is better to succeed and live.
In the field of competitive sports doping is cheating and must be punished.
On the contrary, the missions and duties of military leaders during a war are to defeat the enemies while limiting the human losses of its own troops.
All available means to improve the efficiency and performance of soldiers must be used.
Note : Military psycho-stimulants should not be confused with other psychoactive brain-disrupting chemicals, such as LSD, which could even be used in peacetime for law enforcement against demonstrators and would therefore fall into the category of non-lethal weapons.
But military personnel are often discreet about various uses of psychostimulants in their own armed forces, which will be discussed in Chapter 2. In the public realm of civilian activities here are three significant examples that are quite well known :
The story is based on the testimonies of two men who probably stayed alive thanks to the Pervitin.
- The mountaineer Hermann Buhl (1924-1957) succeeded (solo and without oxygen) on July 3, 1953 the first ascent of Nanga-Parbat (8126 m) in 41 hours: (high dose of pervitin during the return trip).
- Doctor Peter Döbler (1940-) illegally escaped from the GDR on 25 July 1971 by swimming 48 km in 24 hours. He set out from Kühlungsborn in the direction of the island of Fehmarn (1 pervitin pill every 4 hours).
More recently, in 2016, Bertrand Piccard and André Borschberg flew around the world with the "Solar Impulse 2" (single-seater solar airplane), in 17 stages. This meant that the pilot had to remain vigilant for several days. Therefore they openly declared:
"However, one does not want to do without chemical aids completely. If nothing else helps at the end of a flight, pilots will be able to take stimulant : specifically, caffeine capsules, amphetamines and the drug Modafinil".
** Chapter 2 **
To convince the reader that Dyatlov's hike had been the subject of a trial of a new (and unknown) military psychostimulant, ( here called the X-stimulant).
** {2}.§-1-) **
Historical reminders.
Military use of psychostimulants or also called if you want performance-enhancing substances (or drug) to combat fatigue, improve endurance, and give warrior zeal, dates back many centuries.
/1/ ** The reader can refer for example to these recent books :
Lukasz Kamienski : Shooting Up, A History of Drugs in Warfare (2016).
Norman Ohler : Blitzed , Drugs in the Third Reich (2017).
Dessa K. Bergen-Cico : War and Drugs: The Role of Military Conflict in the Development of Substance abuse (2016).
/2/ ** During the Second World War various amphetamine-like substances were consumed.
In the Wehrmacht Pervitin (methamphetamine: C10 H16 N) were routinely prescribed.
The Japanes troops used Philoponor, also known as Hiropin (methamphetamine + green tea powder ?).
British soldiers were often given Benzedrine (amphetamine: C9 H15 N), while American forces took their Go-pills.
/3/ ** According to the opinions of military historians Pervitin showed its effectiveness during the short campaigns in Poland (35 days 1939) and France (42 days 1940) in the sense that the battle groups supplied with pervitin proved to be superior.
On the contrary, after the first months of the Great Patriotic War (22 June 1941 - 9 May 1945) it is accepted that the repercussions of pharmaceutical stimulation weakened and rendered ineffective a lot German soldiers.
As a result, in November 1944, pharmacologist Gerhard Orzechowski(1902-1977) proposed the D-IX (cocaïne:5 mg + pervitin:3 mg + eudokal:5mg), a blend which seems to be more efficient than Pervitin.
/4/ ** It appears that, until 1946, the only psychostimulant used by the Red Army was simply vodka (to this we can perhaps add a tobacco called makhorka).
Retardation in the availability of efficient psycostimulants until 1945 and then research and development efforts in the Soviet Army and the KGB.
/1/ ** The advantage of vodka is that it is readily available and inexpensive.
But for military use vodka is a rather mediocre stimulant.
- duration of action too short (perhaps less than 4 hours);
- tends to cause a poor assessment of the tactical situation;
- decreases accuracy of aim and effectiveness of fire.
/2/ ** The Second World War and the Great Patriotic War had shown Soviet leaders that psychoactives substances could be very useful in military employment.
So they could reasonably think that the USSR was ahead in the race to conquer space but that in the area of soldiers's enhancement the Soviet Union had fallen far behind the West.
/3/ ** After the victory in 1945, it is certain that the Soviets took measures (of which little is known because they remained secret) to compensate for their backwardness in the field of military psychotechnology.
It is possible that, under the impetus of pharmacologist and toxicologist Nikolai Vasilyevich Lazarev (1895-1974), the military use of natural ingredients was first considered.
Natural resources such as Rhodiola rosea (a yellow-flowered plant native to snowy Arctic regions), Rhaponticum carthamoides, Schisandra chinensis, Aralia manchurica, Asian ginseng also known as Panax ginseng .
And also the mushroom Amanita muscaria (fly agaric or fly amanita) often used by Siberian shamans as a method to reach a state of trance.
/4/ ** But the Soviets, perfectly aware at that time of the progress of pharmacochemistry, also undertook the study and production by chemical synthesis of a multitude of much more active and promising substances. It is known, for example, that by 1951, U.S. intelligence reports revealed that the Soviets had purchased 50 millions doses of LSD from Sandoz.
Note : In 2020 some Western armies officially use slowrelease caffeine(C8 H10 N4 O2) and modafinil(C15 H15 N O2 S) and sometimes even cocaine(C17 H21 N O4) and methylamphetamine(C10 H15 N) with caution.
Some general concepts about psychoactive substances and psychostimulants from a military viewpoint.
/1/ ** There are very many psychoactive substances extracted from plants and there are even more that are obtained by chemical synthesis. In addition blends of substances can often have entirely different effects (mitigation or enhancement).
With the right dose the short-term effects on the brain and physiology are powerful and irresistible.
Note : In 2020 the understanding of the acute and chronic effects of psychoactive substances on the brain has expanded greatly in recent years.
Whith the help of neuroimaging techniques (Magnetic Resonance, Imaging Positron emission tomography, Single photon emission computed tomography, Electroencephalography...) one begins to acquire a substantial molecular and cellular fingerprint of the extensive changes in neuronal systems.
Paracelsus (1493-1541) wrote an exact and profound truth, "Dose makes the poison." Some of these compounds are beneficial when consumed in small amounts, but harmful or deadly in higher doses.
To be effective, the dose of a given psychosactive blend must be within a certain narrow "range": below the low limit there is no effect and above it is a toxic or fatal overdose.
For the majority of substances the appropriate dose is small, less than a gram (0.001mg-0,003 mg for LSD) and the correct dosage therefore requires care.
/2/ ** Need for testing on humans under real conditions.
The effects of a psychostimulant are difficult to predict because they vary according to the circumstances and the sensitivity and mental state of the person taking it.
In order to become usable and operational, all new substances must be tested under real-life conditions.
/3/ ** Systematic and complete military training is long, expensive and not always possible in real historical circumstances.
The use of psychostimulants by temporarily (for a several hours or a few days) improving the physical resistance (to lack of sleep, cold, fatigue, etc.) and mental performances of the warriors (absence of fear, concentration, lucidity, rapidity of reactions and decisions, etc.) increases the chances of victory in high intensity fights.
/4/ ** The main disadvantage of any psychostimulant is its short duration of action.
- Ingestion of a psychostimulant may lead to a short period of improved performances but will inevitably be followed by a period of weakening. In other words, it postpones the need for rest but does not eliminate the need for rest or sleep.
(It is somewhat analogous to a reservoir of vital energy that is normally used regularly and slowly. The psycostimulant is a large opening that allows you to spend all the contents quickly but afterwards there is nothing left).
- However, despite this limitation, military psychostimulants are still of interest in certain conditions because the commandant sometimes has the possibility to foresee that intense and violent fights will be of short duration (1 to 3 days).
This is particularly true in the air force where the autonomy of aircraft generally limits flight times.
They are more suited to intense combat situations, which often happens in blitzkrieg circumstances but not in wars of attrition.
/5/ ** Long-term effects
Like recreational drugs, military psychostimulants involve dangers that are well known.
There are risks of craving and whithdrawal that lead to physical fitness and mental health deterioration and cause social damages.
- hypertension, cramps, fatigue, loss of consciousness, cardiovascular disease...
- depression, anxiety, paranoia, mania, paranoid delusions, confusion...
- violence, social precariousness, delinquency, marginalization...
Note: In 2020 it is expected (?) that staffs will reduce these dangers by controlling consumption and by caring for soldiers after use.
/6/ ** Friendly fire incidents
By wanting to reinforce the speed of riposte and pugnacity but also the impulsiveness, psychostimulants also increase the risks of friendly fire.
Another, fortunately infrequent danger : An inappropriate substance or overdose can cause death or a transient pharmacopsychosis.
/1/ ** Some psychoses (madness, dementia, delusions) imply the loss of the sense of reality, the abolition of discernment, the suppression of logical reasoning and it follows that if a murderer was suffering at the time of his crime from a psychic or neuropsychic disorder having abolished his discernment or the control of his acts, he is not responsible. (Besides this is frequently contested because it is difficult to know whether the psychosis of the murderer has really completely abolished his discernment).
/2/ ** Joseph Capgras (1873-1950) is a psychiatrist who in 1923 accurately described the Capgras syndrome.
Patients suffering from this syndrome have the unshakeable conviction that their loved ones (relatives, friends...etc.) have been replaced by impostors, hostile and evil doubles who persecute them.
Totally unaware of their delusion, these patients are convinced that they are in great danger and often try to defend themselves by sudden and violent counterattacks against these duplicious(tracheous) and bloodthirsty impostors.
Note : Cases of Capgras syndrome (and others dangerous paranoid schizophrenics) need to be cared for by teams trained in violence management in special psychiatric hospitals with specifically secured facilities.
/3/ ** Capgras syndrome is frequently associated with the diagnosis of schizophrenia. It can also appear in a more or less permanent way after a cranial trauma or after drug use.
The reader who has arrived so far will find the 3 assertions of this paragraph quite likely.
/1/ ** In 1958, somewhere in the Soviet Union, there was a (hypothetical) AAA-laboratory which had prepared doses of a new psychostimulant substance, which by convention we shall call X-stimulant.
/2/ ** The composition of the X-stimulant is completely unknown because it has remained a secret. However, in order to fix the ideas, we can imagine that it was a very active blend in the genre :*
Alpha-PVP(C15 H21 N O) + Cocaine(C17 H21 N O4) + Methamphetamine(C10 H15 N) + Phencyclidine(C17 H25 N) +...
/3/ ** Naturally, those in charge of AAA-laboratory were in a hurry to carry out tests under real conditions to demonstrate the importance and interest of their works.
/1/ ** Literally and figuratively the Ural Polytechnic Institute was located in the centre of a vast military-industrial complex that had grown as a result of the evacuation of many industries to the East of the Urals after the German aggression of 22 June 1941 ---> with closed towns where there was (is) a lot of secret military laboratories (nuclear, chemical, biological, ...etc.)
/2/ ** Students and alumni of the UPI were part of the young scientific-technical intelligentsia that would help to place the USSR at the forefront of world progress, demonstrating the superiority of the socialist regime.
Relations between UPI staff and the managers of industrial enterprises or directors of research laboratories in the Sverdlovsk Region were therefore frequent and varied.
/3/ ** The Dyatlov expedition was almost semi-official, since it had received permission or approval from the authorities.
When the AAA-laboratory learned of the Dyatlov expedition's schedule, it planned to use it to experiment with X-stimulant under very realistic conditions. It was a good opportunity to carry out a quick and free test of the X-stimulant on a group of 10 sportsmen and women moving independently in the snow for two weeks.
But there has been a mistake somewhere. That is what is reconstructed (or imagined, I concede) in chapters three and four.
*** Chapter 3 ***
To convince the reader that a mistake somewhere has created a transient craziness among hikers - crisis of schizophrenic delusion in the form of Capgras syndrome.
Pressured by time a head of the military pharmacochemistry AAA-laboratory organizes a trial with the participation of Zolotaryov who is in charge of adding doses of X-stimulant in one of the meals of the hike.
*** {3}.§-1-) ***
/1/ *** Zolotaryov has had a particular role (as shown in this line from the Dubinina diary on january 23rd) :
"Zolotaryov, who came with us on the trek. At first nobody wanted this Zolotaryov, for he is a stranger, but then we all agreed, because you can't refuse."
On the day of their departure January 23, she wrote in her diary: "At first, no one wanted him in the group because he’s complete stranger, but then we got over it and he’s coming. We couldn’t just refuse to take him."
Everyone knew that the inclusion of this stranger in the group had been orchestrated by the local Communist Party Committee.
/2/ *** Zolotaryov - or another man who wanted impersonate Zolotaryov - (perhaps with the help or complicity of Kolevatov), had been commissioned by a secret design office of chemical synthesis of the Soviet Army(1946-1991) the or KGB(1954-1991) to experiment with a new unknown substance (called here the X-stimulant) under real conditions.
/3/ *** Naturally Zolotaryov enthusiastically agreed to contribute to this seemingly innocuous essay because he was a good patriot and a helpful man.
Specifically, the head of this military design office (or secret research AAA-laboratory) gave Zolotaryov few doses of X-stimulant and explained that his mission would be to add these doses without saying so to avoid the placebo effect to a meal around the middle of the hike. He also entrusted Zolotaryov with a camera. Then Zolotaryov was to observe, photograph and write a report.
The head of this design office continued :
" we know that X-stimulant is powerful and very active, but nobody knows exactly what the effects of X-stimulant are. In any case the effects will disappear in less than 15 hours. In principle there is no danger. However, be on your guard as this can lead to agressive spirit and some hallucinations and delusions...
We trust you to restore the situation if it becomes delicate because we know that you overcame much more terrible situations during the Battle of Stalingrad ".
So on the evening of February 1, once in the unheated tent that night, Zolotariov, believing that he was reducing the fatigue that was beginning to be felt in the group after several days of hiking in the snow - or believing brighten up the slightly gloomy mood, discreetly added few doses of X-stimulant to the meal portions.
But the chemists and pharmacists at the Soviet Army's research laboratory were wrong.
/1/ *** Perhaps simply the result of a weighing error committed by an incompetent laboratory technician who confused grams (g) with milligrams (mg) !
Paracelsus, wrote this exact and profound truth, "Dose makes the poison." : Some compounds are beneficial when consumed in small amounts, but harmful, and lethal in higher doses.
/2/ *** Or the X-stimulant was dangerous anyway.
It was either an entirely new product obtained by chemical synthesis, or simply a mixture of already known drugs as for example a clever blend of Cocaïne + Méthamphétamine + Phencyclidine ...(?).(?).(?)
/3/ *** It must also be understood that, in general, leaders in government spheres are under pressure to deliver qickly effective results. Also in laboratories, research offices, very often researchers do not have enough time to carry out perfect checks. They are not careful enough and take risks...
The X-stimulant was intended to be militarily more effective than vodka, pure alcohol, methanol, hallucinogenic mushrooms, rye ergot... and it was to contribute to transform consumers into an augmented soldier or super warrior.
By organizing this test of ingestion of stimulant X, the pharmacochemists of the AAA-laboratory thought they had succeeded in :
- eliminate fear and increase offensive spirit, initiative, tactical discernment;
- improve physical strength, speed, determination;
- make them insensitive to cold, fatigue and lack of sleep.
Obviously the pharmacochemists in the AAA-laboratory can be suspected of having made a serious misunderstanding in the composition of the X-stimulant, but this may be a dosage error.
Anyway, some of the nine hikers were subjected to an acute delusional burst typical of a transient Capras syndrome.
The absurd, savage and aggressive behaviour on the part of intelligent, rational and peaceful people is explained because they were overwhelmed by hallucinations and delusions caused by a powerful, noxious and harmful chemical compound.
It is also reasonable to assume that the disruption of brains' functioning had abolished the sensation of coldness. Thus the contact of cold snow was felt like that of warm sand or burning ash.
Deadly altercation on the pass evening february 1 and night morning february 2.
The 9 hikers slaughtered each other, first with their fists, then using large dead branches of birch blunt objects . They were all seriously wounded, and then the intense cold quickly ended them.
In addition to the knives left in the tent, there were certainly others as Vietnamka thinks (post 65 - Murdered / Re: Murder Indead « on: May 10, 2018, 11:52:30 AM » ):"I'm pretty sure zolotarev had his own knife ...."
Were the knives folding (pen knives)? I do not know. But the knives were not, or could not be, used as a bladed weapon but to quickly prune dead branches picked up from the ground and thus transform them into excellent bludgeons (typically of lengths between 0.8 m and 1.4 m, weight between 1 kg and 4 kg).
Handled energetically with both hands like an axe, from top to bottom, the destructive power of a good bludgeon is tremendous.
There is no difficulty in shattering human skulls and explaining the broken ribs !
**** Chapter 4 ****
A plausible reconstruction of the 2 hand-to-hand fights that took place, during the night of February 1 to 2, 1959, under the influence of the Capgras syndrome caused by the X-stimulant.
It is clear that we can distinguish 3 groups and to abbreviate my text I use the notation below:
{2KD} : Krivonischenko + Doroshenko.
{3DSK} : Dyatlov + Slobodin + Kolmogorova.
{4ZKTBD} : Zolotaryov + Kolevatov + Thibeaux-Brignolle + Dubinina.
**** {4}.§-1-) ****
First part of the day on 1 February :
Larm clock :: 7am
Departure :: 9am
Construction of the labaz sorting and distribution of equipment, packaging and protection of food, ... ---> +3h :: noon 12 o'clock
Skiing up in deep snow with an increase in altitude of about 300 m and then a short horizontal trip ---> +3h :: 3pm
Setting up the tent clearing a horizontal platform, stowing the tent in the absence of a tree, holding light objects that fly away well in snow gusts.... ---> +2h :: 5pm
Indeed Dyatlov made a small mistake on the planned route (In the afternoon he headed up the hill a little too far to the left), but it is not important.
Dyatlov made a wise and good decision by stopping around 5pm, without losing altitude (rather than continuing randomly into the night, remember that all the 9 were perhaps little tired and losted).
The next day, February 2, Dyatlov expected to easily find the normal path when it was daylight.
He was right to think that his tent, even far from the trees of the forest, would provide sufficient shelter.
So at 5 pm the tent is up and everyone can take shelter inside. So far everything is going normally. Then there is nothing to worry about!
Then, as indicated by the design office, it was the right time to test the X-stimulant which was discreetly added by Zolotaryov in the common meal.
By chance or by the will of Zolotaryov, the {3DSK} ingests a high dose of X-stimulant, the {2KD} a low dose of X-stimulant and the {4ZKTBD} absorb nothing.
The strange atmosphere in the solitude of the winter desert, the night, the cold, the wind, the irregular noise caused by snow gusts favoured the action of the powerful X-stimulant too strongly dosed, which will completely disrupt for several hours the functioning of the brains of the {3DSK}.
The wind was strong and the tent canvas vibrated and slammed violently and loudly.
So in the begining of hallucination and delirium the {3DSK} believed that they are attacked by several dangerous and bloodthirsty demons or yetis.
Thinking they are defending themselves, more and more agitated although still lying down, in earlier delirium, using a knife they cut the canvas of the tent above them without a very reasonable plan. (I insist: these stab wounds were completely absurd and useless acts).
So at this point Zolotaryov thought "The effect is less good than expected, it is better to be cautious".
Therefore he said to the others aloud:
"I put a drug in the meal tonight which makes them crazy and aggressive, let us get dressed and leave, in 12 hours they will be back normal and we will come back. For the moment follow me".
So the {4ZKTBD} went out without any undue haste and chose a well hidden place hard to find; then there they built the den.
In accordance with his mission, Zolotaryov did not forget to take a notebook and the camera he had been entrusted with.
While {2KD} didn't understand that bizarre and incomprehensible advice. They were doubtfull or are too asleep and remain lying down.
But shortly after, the overwhelming effects of the X-stimulant were increasing. The overexcited brains of the {3DSK} were functioning absurdly, without control or reasoning. Terrifying early childhood nightmares returned, filling their fields of consciousness.
It was an outburst of transient schizophrenic delirium in the form of Capgras syndrome due to this involuntary ingestion of a potent toxic chemical.
So the {3DSK} see lying next to them two dangerous and bloodthirsty daemons, let call them yetis ( in fact it was{2KD} sleeping). Then they attacked (indeed the best defense is the attack) and they started to knock still clumsily because their minds were still a little foggy.
The {2KD} were forced to run away in a hurry without having time to get dressed enough. And also they were reluctant to hit their three comrades and friends.
Thinking they were far enough away from theirs delirious comrades (i.e.the {3DSK}), who remained in the tent, the {2KD} started a fire.
With a large fire it would have been possible to survive during 15 hours by continuously dancing around it, as close to the fire as possible so as not to get too cold, yet not too close to avoid the real burns. The greatest difficulty would have been to quickly find enough firewood that was not too damp.
In 1945 the {3DSK} were 8 or 9 years old and their childhoods had been profoundly determined by accounts of the fighting, exploits, massacres and atrocities of the Great Patriotic War. Under the powerful influence of the X-stimulant, these were the kinds of ferocious impulses that filled the {3DSK} brains : "These bloodthirsty and dangerous yetis have regrouped to better come back to attack and kill us ".
We are days away from the rescue march. There is no possibility of escape.
Their brains overwhelmed and convulsed by this cursed substance, there was nothing left but let us follow the example of our elders during the great patriotic war: the best defense is attack. Let us get out off the tent ! Let us look for the yetis ! Let's kill them or else they'll kill us . Let us find them ! Exterminate them ! Let us go ! Assault ! Attack !
But outside, in the night the {3DSK} could not see anything and did not know where to go. Suddenly a glow became visible, it was the fire that the {2KD} had just lit at the foot of the cedar tree. (Besides under the influence of this bad X-stimulant they forgot to pick up the ice axe, which could have served as a terribly effective weapon.)
The {3DSK} then moved towards the fire, in good attack order and without unnecessary haste. So the {3DSK} then naturally followed the tracks left by the {4ZKTBD}, and then by the {2KD}, which had descended down to the forest shortly before, along the line of the steepest slope.
To walk 1.5 kilometers in the snow and at night, it takes at least 9 minutes or more, which is the time it takes for there to be big flames.
The {3DSK} brutally attacked the {2KD} who did not understand anything, and who hesitated to hit their friends too hard, but were forced to defend themselves. First with fists and kicks, and then perhaps with branches of dead wood gathered from the ground.
Doroshenko was stunned by the blows to the right side of his head and neck and fell out of combat. Krivonischenko climbed into the cedar tree for explanations and to parley. He shouted : "What's happens ? Are you mad ? I am Yuri. Yours good comrade and friend ...".
The {3DSK} thought: obviously this is not our beloved comrade Yuri Krivonischenko. He is a imposter who look like our friend.
This is a ruse by a vicious and bloodthirsty yeti who is trying to deceive us. (This is the hallmark of Capgras syndrome)).
Consequently Krivonischenko was chased, burned at the legs, cruelly pulled down. Krivonischenko could not hold on for long, then fell at the foot of the cedar where he too was stunned by numerous blows from the front and from behind.
Left without fire, scantily dressed, and unconscious, the {2KD} quickly froze to death.
During this first hand-to-hand fight, the {4ZKTBD} heard some sounds of fighting muffled by the snow, but the {4ZKTBD} preferred not to move out of the den (located 75 meters from the cedar and fire).
The {4ZKTBD} thought: "the {2KD} are two strong and sporty guys, nothing serious can happen".
Then, the {3DSK}, still completely under the influence of the X-stimulant, go back in search of the others dangerous and bloodthirsty yetis. It was at night, in the forest, in a sloping, snow-covered area. The {3DSK} stubborly searched everywhere for a long time, at least two hours, without finding anything. They then decide to give up and return to take shelter in the tent. To do this they follow the tracks they have left, so the {3DSK} return to the place of the fire (now extinguished).
But there, under the cedar tree, the {3DSK} met with the {4ZKTBD} who had no longer heard anything. The {4ZKTBD} had been out of the den for a few minutes and had had time to realize that the {2KD} had frozen to death. The {4ZKTBD} had also had time to took some clothes from the {2KD} who had died and did not need anything anymore.
Immediately the {3DSK} attacked the "4 bloodthirsty yetis". The {3DSK} thought: "What a chance to find them ! We will be able to exterminate them all ! Assault ! Assault !
Always under the powerful influence of the X-stimulant the {3DSK} attacked with the same determination and the same offensive fury and a dreadful second fight began in the darkness between seven fighters...
The {4ZKTBD} had no choice but to desperately try to defend their lives. This second hand-to-hand fight was very violent and brutal as some fighters had had time to pick up wooden bars on the ground that were used like stabbing weapons, bludgeons which makes it possible to strike of estoc and of size.
The so called blunt objects were dead branches picked up from the snow-covered ground and eventually quickly and roughly pruned, length:1.2 m - weight between 2 kg and 4 kilograms obtained with the help of knives (perhaps the knife that was not recovered),
and also Vietnamka wrote on May 10, 2018, 11:52:30 AM
I'm pretty sure zolotarev had his own knife as a person passed through the 2° WW and tourist instructor. He must.
With fury, rage and great muscular forces, ribs were broken, skulls were fractured ; (no need to call upon "overwhelming unknown forces" !).
While defending themselves as best they could, the {4ZKTBD} gradually and instinctively retreated from the cedar to the den.
The fighting was confusing and awkward as all the 7 participants were physically strained.
Thereafter inevitably the 7 hikers were out of condition to fight: half stunned, seriously wounded, moribund...
The {4ZKTBD} collapsed into a hole in the snow a few meters from the den and stayed there because they could not get up. Then the cold finished them off inevitably in a more or less short period of time.
Assuming that Kolevatov who saw his clothes torn off was he the least seriously injured (?)...or on the contrary did he finally die first (?), he could do practically nothing else but stay with Thibeaux-Brignolle, Dubinina and Zolotaryov while he was waiting for his inevitable death.
In a state of semi-consciousness, the instinct of self-preservation still remains...
The {3DSK} tried to climb back up to the tent despite their serious injuries. Some of them could probably have survived if they could have been quickly and properly treated in a hospital.
Kolmogorova fell forever 850 meters from the tent, but would she have had the strength to leave on her own and reach the labaz with the food, or setttlement 41, since no help would have arrived for several (25) days ?
• Official instructions and directives to cover up the affair.
It was only after the discovery of the empty tent on February 26 that the KGB learned that the test with the Dyatlov expedition was causing problems, not before.
The responsible specialists in the relevant ministries and Khrushchev himself obviously understood what it was about (so a failed test for military drugs, in my opinion). But they wanted to maintain defence secrecy and above all not to confess the truth. Only a small circle of people at the top knew the real purpose of the operation.
So the KGB was in a difficult situation, because by February 26th it was too late, as many different people had seen too many inexplicable things.
It is also reasonable to think that the other witnesses, participants and rescuers (among others Vladimir Ivanovich Korotaev, Ivan Stepanovich Prodanov(1906-1964) , Andrei Pavlovich Kirilenko(1906-1990), Colonel Georgiy Semyonovich Ortyukov(1914-1979)...)were puzzled and never understood the causes of the 9 deaths.
• The solution found by the KGB was somehow..:
- A swift halt to the official investigation :
Korotaev was removed from the position of lead investigator which he occupied for 20 days.
Prodanov had told Korotayev: "this case being investigated is under the eyes of Khrushchev and I have assured him that it was just hypothermia."
Kirilenko summoned Korotaev to the investigator's office and unequivocally explained: "Khrushchev is notified that the students froze to death and the case must be closed."
• After the discovery of the 4 damaged corpses (May 9) Lev Nikitich Ivanov and Vasiliy Ivanovich Tempalov (1921-?) were able to write an unconvincing and even suspicious explanation : "it is concluded that the cause of their demise was overwhelming force, which the hikers were not able to overcome"
- Everyone who took part in the search signed a non-disclosure of information for 25 years.
- The region was closed to tourists for 3 years ;
In the end, the KGB's solution proved to be an excellent one, since 61 years later, in 2020, the mystery remains and no state secrets have been released.
• The tragedy of the Dyatlov Pass is part of the general context of the current decline in interest in psychostimulant drugs on the part of the military in all countries.
• It is true that chemical synthesis offers an immense range of doping products, but choosing an effective product is difficult. Determining the right dosage is also difficult because the effects are variable and depend on many factors.
Too much aggressiveness and soldiers massacre each other. Not enough aggressiveness and the soldiers talk intelligently and make peace with the enemy soldiers opposite.
• In addition, recent automated weapons systems have become more complicated and require qualified and skilled technicians rather than infantrymen willing to sacrifice themselves in deadly offensives.
***** Chapter 5 *****
Under construction: grouping in disorder of a few psychological and historical arguments or comments to take into account future objections I hope to receive.
Historical considerations
••• The 9 hikers of Dyatlov's group were young sportsmen without any serious political role, they were engaged in their technical studies, sports and singing. They did not have much importance in the field of politics.
In 1959 it was the government of Nikita Khrushchev. There were no more repressions and arbitrary acts of terror like in the time of Joseph Stalin(1878-1953).
If by some extraordinary miracles some of the hikers had been an embarrassment to the Kremlin regime, it was completely useless to kill them, because there were many other simple and effective ways to neutralize political opponents and calm down the turbulent young students (such as a short stay in a psychiatric hospital...).
Psychological considerations
••• On the psychological level, it is consistent to think that a homogenous and united group of 9 young Soviet sportsmen and women
- attacked by human or animal enemies who did not use firearms or knives,
- fully aware that they are days away from rescue and with no possible retreat,
- whose childhood had been turned upside down by the historic exemplars of Russian courage and bravery against foreign aggressors during the great patriotic war :
would have rushed at the enemy with a single thrust, hitting him to cut or thrust, with everything that was immediately available at hand: skis, stove parts, tent peg, ski pole, knife...and an ice axe was not far away...
They all well knew, of course, that the best defence is a massive, immediate and concerted counterattack.
••• It is possible that there may have been grounds for some dispute between them that were not written in the diaries. But they were reasonable people who would have waited until the end of the hiking to quarrel.
••• If there had been explosions, fireballs, machine-gun fire...
The only solution was to lie down motionless and, if possible, dig deep into the snow.
Certainly not to expose yourself in the open on a vast and bare slope of snow that offered no possibility of hiding.
••• To look outside a tent it is useless and ridiculous to cut the canvas wall, just push back a bit a flap of the front entrance.
To be completed and continued at a later stage thanks to the hoped others objections of the readers....
Quote from: Jean Daniel Reuss on February 03, 2020, 02:04:13 PM
( fatal altercations on the pass caused by one mistake with a test of a noxious military psychostimulant).
Errata of «To complement Eduard Tumanov's ideas, here is something to read :»
Of course, you have to replace * Chapter 1 * §-3-) (BBcode error)
All available means to improve the efficiency and performance of soldiers must be used. by
who probably stayed alive thanks to the Pervitin. by
who probably stayed alive thanks to the Pervitin.
Thanks to WAB's good insights (I forgot where they were written) the reader can improve the text by adding :
* Chapter 4 * §-4-)
After « The greatest difficulty would have been to quickly find enough firewood that was not too damp. »
Since the dead branches that the {2KD} could remove from the snow cover were wet, one of them (probably Krivonischenko) climbed up the cedar to break some branches and thus pick down twigs from a resinous tree that burst into flames with less difficulty.
After «Suddenly a glow became visible, it was the fire that the {2KD} had just lit at the foot of the cedar tree »
(The fire was perhaps not visible because the strong wind that blew raised swirls of powdery snow).
In any case, the {3DSK} knew that there is always less wind in the forest and that trees grow at lower elevations. So they went down along "the line of the steepest descent"...which brought them naturally close to the cedar and the fire.
Per Inge Oestmoen
DPI Expert
There are no indications that the nine fought with each other at any time.
Quote from: Per Inge Oestmoen on March 07, 2020, 02:21:48 AM
« the main mystery of the tragedy remains the exit of the entire group out of the tent »
« Eduard Tumanov, is pushing a theory that hikers took part in a fight, either between them or with outsiders. He is not partial to any of the two versions. »
I began by considering the first assertion : « a fight between them , it is the X-drug theory ».
I am now eliminating that hypothes because it is very improbable that Soviet army laboratories improvised a test incorporating civilians (non-military Soviet citizens).
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=590.0
Re: Lev was correct, The tent is the answer.
March 20, 2020, 04:48:38 PM Reply #11
Therefore like you Per Inge Oestmoen, I now think that the second hypothesis is the best one :
the hikers took part in a fight with outsiders.
And even why do we not say : they tried to fight back against hostile attackers ?
However, I do not understand why you only talk about jiu jitsu. To break bones without leaving bloody marks it is more efficient to hit with a wooden bar (weight about 3 kilograms, length about 1 meter).
Something similar to this old method:
And I also spotted a new arguments for strengthening the murdered theory. See Reply #11
« I found discrepancies with the writings of Per Inge Oestmoen and most importantly :
I can answer (i.e. I ave valid arguments to be able to answer) the 3 useful questions:
WHO ?
HOW ?
(The answers to these 3 questions are not indisputable evidence because they are debatable. But the fact that I can answer these 3 questions shows the coherence of the scenario).»
Hello, To the Forum and Awesome Teddy,
I have had a great connection with with the Dyatlov Incident for the past decade. I have read many books and been on other informal forums. I am grateful for this wonderful forum on this subject and the intelligent posts.
I lived in Alaska for years and I know the subarctic. Where I lived was on the same northern coordinate as Kholat Syakhl. I believe everyone when they contend that the tent is the answer. Although the tent no longer exists due to age, mold and neglect (???).
I propose that before the tent was slashed by knife/knives for the group escape (downhill side), that there were several smaller horizontal (lookout) holes cut into the tent near the downward side ridge line. These were purposefully cut for observation to view actions occurring outside the tent, probably it was dark. Why would you be cutting holes in your tent to look out at in the dark? What they saw through the observation holes made them shred the tent to escape. If you have ever had a gun pointed at you, believe me, you don't start slashing things around you and running off into the darkness. Attackers would have to have a gun or guns in order to attack a strong group of 9 hikers. The hikers would have been shot. You have to hunt in Urals like the Mansi, to obtain enough protein.
I just don't see a group fight or outside invasion. I have never seen a rib cage fractured like Semyon's without any outside skin or tissue damage. My two questions are the tent event and Semyon's true identity. The coroner's report seemed to go into more detail about a previously extracted tooth on one hiker than a missing tongue on another, though the tongue could be an environmental issue.
I believe that Tibo and Semyon were outside the tent and dressed adequately for a toilet break. They saw something outside, either above the tent or below the tent. I have camped in the snow and cold in Alaska, wind or no wind, you do not cut your tent, you would never cut, rip, shred your tent, unless you are more terrified of what is coming towards you or into your tent than certain death by hypothermia. What would scare you more than death?
The footprints rule out the unknown force was not on foot. But I do believe that the hikers were forced out of their tent and down Kholat Syakhl to the tree line as if they were prey. I believe they were a cohesive group under duress and suffering trauma.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2020, 11:14:02 AM by RidgeWatcher »
I agree and will further elaborate on the Eduard Tumanov's ideas when he is pushing the theory that the hikers took part in a fight against outsiders.
This is, moreover, also in accordance with the argumentation of Per Inge Oestmoen and others.
See :
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=325
According to my hypothesis N°2, the attackers had no firearms. They only used blunt objects and a suffocating smoke pot of their own making (Improvised Suffocating Device with SO²). The attackers only succeeded in defeating the hikers after several hours (9 am - 6 pm = 9 hours). This is why I will put the DPI in the topic "Altercation on the pass" and not in the topic "Murdered".
See above: Re: Altercation on the pass Jean Daniel Reuss March 24, 2020, 04:07:07 PM Reply #18
Quote from: RidgeWatcher on May 06, 2020, 07:39:37 PM
I have never seen a rib cage fractured like Semyon's without any outside skin or tissue damage.
Dear RidgeWatcher you do indeed have a serious objection here that contradicts my second hypothesis N°2.
However what can you say to these 4 remarks ?
1) The autopsies of Zolotariov and Dubinina were carried out may 9; thus 3 months after their death. It was then difficult to evaluate with precision the deteriorations of the skin caused by the blows of the blunt object.
2) The contact of the skin with the blunt object was done with the interposition of the clothes which reduced the abrasion. Look at :
Injuries, clothing and belongings to Dyatlov group
For Dubinina there were four layers of cloth.
For Zolotaryov there were five layers of cloth.
3) It may be assumed that death occurred at the same time or very shortly after the blows that broke the ribs.
Therefore, the cessation of blood flow should logically imply smaller and less visible hematomas.
4) The blunt object that was used to break the ribs is a piece of wood that has a rounded end more or less equivalent to a sphere with a diameter of 10 centimeters.
It is a piece of birch wood of density 0.6, properly shaped with a small knife,
length 110 centimeters, weight 4 kilograms, handled with both hands.
Note: I am testing with axe-pruned branches of different lengths and weights.
It is certain that in this way you can break many things. A stick that is too heavy is less effective because the speed of striking decreases.
But I admit that my tests are not conclusive because I have neither corpses nor even skeletons to hit.
My two questions are the tent event and Semyon's true identity.
• The leaving of the tent is fully explained with all its details by the rapid deflagration of a mixture of potassium nitrate and sulphur powder : 2.KNO³ + 4.S --> 3.SO² + N² + K²S.
This well known method of making the air in a room unbreathable (and SO² is harmless if it is possible to get out quickly), is mentioned, albeit distorted, in Anatoly Stepochkin's narrative:
"... the shamans cut the tarp and launched some kind of dope inside. Hunters surrounded the tent. And when the hikers jumped out we killed them all...."
Here the translation is obvious:
« shamans ... hunters ...we » = anticommunist and anti-Russian attackers from Vizhay or settlement 41.
« some kind of dope » = Improvised Suffocating Device made with common products available in all drugstores.
•• What is the importance of Semyon's true identity ?
The hiker who appears in the photos and who is called, rightly or wrongly, "Zolotariov", has proven to be a delightful comrade.
I have a theory about how they got from the tent to the tree line, but that is it so far (It is only my present theory.). If anyone can find a hole in it, I'd love to hear.
So here it is.
They had two or more visitors who wanted the safety of the tent. After being invited in, they forced the students out (probably at gun point). They all climbed out the front flap quietly without disturbing anything much in the tent. After maybe a brief altercation, they were told to leave on their own initiative or die. They all lined up together so they wouldn't lose anyone. The "visitors" then cut a few holes in the tent to watch and make sure they were leaving. The students headed for the tree line because they thought it was the next safest place.
Quote from: sparrow on May 09, 2020, 11:29:07 PM
Well its as good as any of the Theories because we are missing so much evidence. But you do realise that there are many events that make up the whole in this Dyatlov Case. EXTRAORDINARY INJURIES and FIRE and CEDAR TREE and so called DEN at the Ravine etc etc.
Thanks for your input Sarapuk.
Quote from: sarapuk on May 11, 2020, 03:47:18 PM
........ we are missing so much evidence. But you do realise that there are many events that make up the whole in this Dyatlov Case. EXTRAORDINARY INJURIES and FIRE and CEDAR TREE and so called DEN at the Ravine etc etc.
DPI is a misfortune that is not mysterious from the moment you admit that Eduard Tumanov ( he is more competent than I am) did not make a mistake when he wrote :
" hikers took part in a fight"
In the first place the injuries of the hikers, (that without the cold, perhaps would not have been fatal except those of the den), are quite explainable and ordinary.
Per Inge Oestmoen who is trained in combat sports tells us that he is able to break his opponents' ribs only with his elbow.
I simply point out that in order to smash a man's - or even an ox's - skull, it is simpler and more efficient to use a blunt object (length about 1 m, weight about 4 kg; which can be called a mace or a big blugeon).
This is a discovery that was made at least 100,000 years ago by prehistoric man.
I do not have a skeleton or a human corpse lying on the ground at my disposal for fracture tests, but ribs are fine bones that seem very easy to break.
Lev Ivanov was cautious and deliberately imprecise, but he has made a correct work by law with his conclusion :
"The reason for the death of students was overwhelming force which they were unable to overcome." that is not wrong.
Indeed, when you get a big bludgeon blow to the head the truth is exactly that it is an overwhelming force that you are unable to overcome.
Doroshenko and Kivonischenko were resourceful guys and with matches, freshly cut cedar twigs and dead branches picked up from the frozen ground they succeeded in starting a fire. This is not extraordinary.
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I agree with you that there will be no absolute certainty.
But thanks to Teddy's exposure and her translations of the documents available on the DPI we have enough knowledge to be able to
reconstruct a probable scenario that can explain the totality of what we know.
Obviously some unimportant details of the fighting that took place on the night of February 1 to 2, 1959 are more difficult to reconstruct.
For example, I would like to know if Kolmogorova and Slobodin fell the first as they went down the slope from the tent to the cedar tree.
Or on the contrary, if Kolmogorova and Slobodin fell the last as they went up the slope from the cedar towards the tent.
Well I dont see any EVIDENCE provided by you to prove your Statements. You are quoting other people who themselves were not sure about what happened. And the injuries are certainly not ordinary when you look at the Bodies of those at the Ravine.
Quote from: sarapuk on June 03, 2020, 02:16:28 PM
I dont see any EVIDENCE provided by you to prove your Statements.
Yes, you are right ! Indeed there are no proofs.
My method of research - which is neither personal nor original - consists of
a) *** First to reconstruct (or imagine if you prefer) a complete and coherent scenario with the data that are available.
b) *** Then follows the phase of evaluation by comparison with other hypotheses as well as discussions on the likelihood and quality of the arguments.
I gave an example of this method with "my hypothesis N°1" which was inspired by Eduard Tumanov ("...hikers took part in a fight...between them...") and by a short sentence of Vladimir Sungorkin which alluded to the test of an unknown drug in a video.
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=411.0 (Altercation on the pass)
February 03, 2020, 02:04:13 PM Reply #15
a) *** Reconstruction = Dyatlov's hike had been the subject of a trial of a new military psychostimulant,
b) *** Phase of evaluation = My hypothesis N°1 is false because the Soviet army had at its disposal many young soldiers who were training in Siberia and it was contrary to the Soviet administrative customs to employ civilians for such a test.
- It is said that in fictional literature Conan Doyle with Sherlock Holmes gives examples of the use of material clues while Agatha Christie emphasizes psychological clues.
- Any reconstruction requires the use of fantasy, I agree, and also intuition.
You are quoting other people who themselves were not sure about what happened.
Yes, you are right. Other people were not sure about what happened.
But I do not understand what is bothering you.
I read the posts and I quote (not systematically) the authors from whom I take ideas to elaborate my own hypothesis N°2.
Otherwise it would be possible that I would be considered as a thief of ideas.
So, for example, here are some ideas that I stole and that I will be willing to incorporate, after modifications, in my hypothesis N°2.
Lev Ivanov ---> he has not felt completely free to express himself and I think that his closing ("an uncontrollable force") should be considered with a touch of humour.
Eduard Tumanov. ---> "...is not partial to any of the two versions. His observations are purely based on the autopsy reports and mainly what is missing from them...".
Noelle ---> "...the cause of death of the first five group members...is that they were definitely involved in some sort of „fist fight“, they must have been attacked by someone..."; (I disagree with Noelle about the other four of the den).
Per Inge Oestmoen ---> like me think that "the answer lies in the bodies [corpse]- and the injuries leave no doubt"..."bodie [corpse]do not lie..." ;
but I disagree with all his other queries such as : they witnessed something in the Urals the Soviet state did not want anyone to know,
Loose}{Cannon ---> The gulags....have been disbanded in 1953....Many that were eligible for release had nowhere to go and stayed as part of a freed and payed working party of say mining and logging communities....There were mentally ill,....political enemies etc, and they were not entirely mixed up....".
Liyla79 ---> "Their group were deliberately GASSED out of the tent. ... There is evidence on the bodies that they have been in a fist fight....".
Nordlander ---> "...I don't think it was escapees from a gulag....many of the "settlers" living in the area had been former inmates of gulags who remained there and they were freed. The loggers fall into this category....".
And the injuries are certainly not ordinary when you look at the Bodies of those at the Ravine.
However, I am sure I disagree with your assertion. All these injuries appear to be very ordinary to me.
The allegation that the injuries of the four of the den are difficult to interpret is the result of misinformation and initial propaganda imposed by the Soviet government in 1959 and by Khrushchev himself.
The effectiveness of two-handed bludgeons(maces) for breaking bones and all sorts of things has been known since prehistoric times.
The mechanics of impacts, shocks and blows is difficult (and by the way not yet complete) especially when applied to a structure as complicated as a human body.
But to make a long story short, it is accepted in biomechanics that an energy of 100 joules is sufficient to fracture a skull.
This is to be compared with a two-handed mace stroke, which, because it involves several large muscles of the body, requires an energy of 500 joules for its excecution.
One can imagine a two-handed blow with a mace as the impact of a 25 cm diameter birch wood sphere (weight=4.9 kg with d=0.6) animated at a speed of 14 m/s, this corresponds theoretically to a kinetic energy of 480 joules.
The lack of obvious damage to soft tissue argument is not serious.
(See also these some posts :
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=383.30
and my Reply #20 - May 07, 2020, 01:43:27 PM)
The state of putrefaction of the bodies of the four of the den no longer allowed precise conclusions to be drawn about soft tissue damage !
In addition, the use of bludgeons covered with a layer of cloth is also possible. For example for hunting in order to obtain beautiful skins without holes it is preferable to silently stun the animal (wolverine, wolf, reindeer, ... and bigger) which is obviously less easy than a neutralization with edged weapons.
On this matter, I did not understand the comments of Eduard Tumanov (my dear inspirator you can say) in this video after the 36th minute and 30 second.
Indeed despite the translation of the subtitles in French, I can only understand a very small part of the lyrics ( I understand better the written texts that can be copied/pasted into an online machine translator).
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
In summary,the DPI is an operation of a terrorist nature carried out by former gulag prisoners, released in 1953,(i.e. ex-zeks) who considered themselves patriots of oppressed nations in conflict with the USSR. The target that was exterminated were our unfortunate hikers who were not even aware that they symbolized the arrogant and victorious Soviet imperialism.
- A terrorist operation is an attempt, in spite of derisory means, to destabilize state authority and also to impress public opinion (which in this case did not take place since the secret could be maintained until 2020 and probably for a long time to come).
If the anecdotal episodes of the DPI now appear to me to be easy to reconstruct (or to imagine in a plausible way), the essential historical context is beyond my knowledge and competence.
However, to introduce the explanations of my hypothesis N°2, here are some notes of disparate readings, recopied on a French historian, about the topic of the ex-zeks.
" Stalin's successors wanted to mark the end of the Stalinist era by showing that the victims could be freed without fundamentally questioning the Soviet political project.
Thus, by the decree of 27 March 1953, Beria decided on the unconditional and gradual release of half of the prisoners in the Gulag camps (the zeks), and these provisions were continued by Khrushchev in 1954 and 1956. However, it must be taken into account that the consequences of mass releases were often unexpected, mainly because the operations themselves were poorly prepared. Finally, the Thaw is an era of experimentation.
In their search for ways to reactivate the socialist project, the leaders, led by Khrushchev, believed in the need to make efforts to integrate criminals into their social project.
Another element of surprise was that the amnesty consciously freed proven enemies of the regime: nationalists who had fought during the Second World War for the independence of states now incorporated into the Soviet Union and also hardened criminals who hated power.
The gulag administration had been struggling since the Second World War with a new type of prisoners, nationalists from various satellite countries and soldiers and officers returning from the front, convicted of treason, collaboration or banditry. Hardened by several years of war and guerrilla warfare, determined and well-organized, they put up fierce resistance to the administration of the camps, ranging from disobedience to the organization of revolts.
The Presidium of the Central Committee defied the commissions which it had itself set up and placed exclusively faithful communists, devoted magistrates and grateful local potentates.
At the time of the unrest in Hungary and Poland (1956) he regretted having entrusted the right of amnesty to decentralized and weakly controlled bodies. He felt that the commissions had unduly released some prisoners ...
These mass releases led to tragedies and put the Soviet leaders in uncomfortable situations (Beria in the summer of 1953, Khrushchev in the autumn of 1956 and in the summer of 1960), how can it be explained that they used them for eight years? The answer most often put forward to account for these perilous decisions is that Stalin's successors would have had no choice: liberations would have been imposed on them as the only way to save the regime, regardless of the consequences.
In conclusion, the years of Khrushchev's thaw are a time of great liberation unique in Soviet history. This period is marked by three major ruptures. The first is that of Stalin's death on March 5, 1953.
Beria then decided to carry out far-reaching reforms to revitalize Soviet society. The amnesty of half of the 2.5 million prisoners in the Gulag is an essential part of this policy.
The ensuing social catastrophe postponed Beria's planned reforms. The second break came at the end of 1955. After Beria's arrest, the Gulag devoted itself to maintaining order in the camps and to balancing its finances. It was a period of mass liberation to stimulate the prison labour force and to rid the camps of the least profitable prisoners, whether political or common law. The failure of this prison-only approach to liberation precipitated the radical reform of the Gulag that Khrushchev wanted.
............."
Even now, the amnesty of 27 March 1953 does not have a good press in contemporary Russia. A successful film work, The Cold Summer of 1953, revived its memory in 1987 and influenced its reception. It is a drama in which a group of bandits freed by the amnesty oppose a few (good) political prisoners, exiled in a remote Siberian village.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cold_Summer_of_1953
Director: Aleksandr PROCHKINE, Screenplay: Edgar DOUBROVSKI .
janeeyre2150
Quote from: Jean Daniel Reuss on June 15, 2020, 03:32:25 PM
I agree with this theory tbh, I think this one is the most realistic among others (avalanche, infrared, bigfoot...) Because i also had a feeling that those people they encountered on the way to the mountain were the ones who may or may not caused their demise. One thing is for sure for me tho, is that they were definitely involved with a fight with a HUMAN BEING and not some mythical creature that unfortunate night. But i just want to ask, where do u think those radioactive traces on their clothing came from? Is it because the 'attackers' worked in a radioactive environment? Or did the radioactive stuff came from the hikers?
Quote from: janeeyre2150 on June 19, 2020, 11:36:02 PM
But I just want to ask, where do you think those radioactive traces on their clothing came from?
Is it because the 'attackers' worked in a radioactive environment?
Or did the radioactive stuff came from the hikers ?
...where do you think those radioactive traces on their clothing came from ?
As I wrote
Measuring contamination in biological samples - Tables 1 and 3
February 20, 2020, 02:42:51 PM - Reply #4
The DPI cannot be explained by radioactive contamination, whether this contamination is low, medium, high or very high.
In the vicinity of Sverdlosk, during the years 1950-1959, there were many research, studies and production activities involving radioactive elements and some containment failures and radioactive leaks were very likely and even unavoidable.
There could be traces of abnormal radioactivity everywhere, that is why the military, the police...etc, were normally or often equipped with radioactivity detectors and counters.
Contrary to my hypothesis N°2, which it is in truth impossible to prove, I am absolutely certain that radioactivity has nothing to do with DPI. That is a red herring.
I have worked here for 40 years:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Alternative_Energies_and_Atomic_Energy_Commission
Is it because the 'attackers' worked in a radioactive environment ?
According to my actual opinion, which I call my hypothesis No. 2, the attackers were ex-zeks, who, with few exceptions, did not generally work in the nuclear industries.
But the most important point is that the 3 clothes with low radioactive contamination had been provided by the hikers themselves.
It is reasonable to assume that some of the students at the UPI were normally required to carry out practical exercises with radioactive products during which the maximum precautions according to current standards were not taken. This was the mentality of the time in all laboratories and educational establishments throughout the world.
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An example, which might interest you, of the real and great dangers of the radioactivity produced by the strontium 90 used in the Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generator (RTG) is the "Radiological Incident in Lia" in 2001. See
Kolevatov's device
GeneralFailure: March 11, 2020, 02:45:05 PM ---> Reply #18
The impressive description of the damage can be found in the indicated file
https://www-pub.iaea.org/MTCD/Publications/PDF/Pub1660web-81061875.pdf
Of obviously a very expensive RTG had not been entrusted to Kolevatov to go on holiday in the Urals mountains !
alecsandros
You've made a wonderfull reply to my inquiries.
However, some details need to be addressed IMHO. I hope some further analysis won't be bothering you.
Jean Daniel Reuss:
"I do not think there were any hikers posted or watching outside the tent."
I agree that it is possible they did not have a sentry outside. I am not fully convinced of this , but it is a possibility.
"The knives in question were folding knives, apparently without a safety lock."
They had both types - the folding knives (pocket knife) and the larger non-folding knife, kept in it's sheath. It is entirely plausible that they weren't adept in fighting using them, and in the panic they didn't take them.
" I think that on the slope of the Klolat Syakhl the violent hand-to-hand combat where Kolmogorova, Slobodin, Dyatlov (in that order) fell stunned, wounded and then froze to death took place in complete darkness.
The flaslights were not used and the moon was not yet up. No one could see anything but vague dark outlines standing out against the lighter background of the snow.
Loss of balance and falls were frequent on both parts because the snow-covered ground was uneven and slippery.
The attackers could not see better than the hikers, but they had better footwear. Thus the attackers could move faster (rather less slowly) which was a decisive advantage for the attackers as they kept the initiative to go on the offensive or break off the fight."
I can understand this . BUt the question arises: how did the attackers find the tent in the darkness ? Surely it would have been difficult to walk from the edge of the forest (where they presumably were hiding) until reaching the tent. How did they find them ?
" •• Once the victim, unconscious or slowed down in his movements by the first blows received, is lying on the ground, it is sufficient to continue hitting.
In Slobodin's case, it was enough to hit him one or more times on the left temple, then turn his head and continue hitting the right temple."
Agreed it is a possibility. What I would add is that it would be difficult to hit the exact place of both temples twice. But not impossible.
" There is no difficulty in breaking human bones with a heavy club, as the energy corresponding to the blows is more than sufficient.
Approximately, we have 4 kg falling from a height of 3 m (120 joules) to which we must add double the muscular energy produced by a set of large muscles."
Agreed it was possible , but why didn't Lyubidina and "Zolotaryov" raise their hands ? [i.e. why don't they have fractures or hits on their arms in self defence]
" On the slope of the Kholat Syakhl almost all traces of footsteps and fights had been erased on February 26, 1959 because the wind had often blown strongly since February 2."
Agreed on that. The selectivity of the footprints that remained visible is most interesting IMHO.