 experience that
hipsters hate other hipsters.

 
Ask HN: How much equity for first engineer when there is no salary involved? - goostavos
How much equity should you ask for if you&#x27;re an engineer joining a company for <i>exclusively</i> equity? I would be the first engineer and present from day one (though not a founder).<p>This would be a part-time moonlighting thing for all involved. Still though, having no salary obviously puts me in a much more risky position. I&#x27;ll be trading life &#x2F; hobbies &#x2F; free-time for a large &quot;maybe.&quot; That risk should be reflected in the equity, right?<p>Going off Paul Graham&#x27;s Equity Equation, the small skunk works aspect of project, and the fact that it doesn&#x27;t get built without an engineer means that I&#x27;d expect to ask in the high range, like, 30-40%. However, it&#x27;s really tough from reading around online to tell if this is reasonable or not.<p>What are the reasonable equity ranges for this situation?
======
davismwfl
I get the idea, but in reality there is no fair equity position unless you are
considered a co-founder. If you are considered a co-founder then this is
workable, but basically you need to have an equal say in all things, otherwise
the company needs to find a way to pay you.

To be clear, equity is a promise that is broken in all but a few percentage of
cases, and even when it isn't broken entirely many times it is nowhere near
what you were promised or believed would be the outcome.

I say you must be considered and treated as a co-founder because you are
taking the same risk the founders are and you need to be treated equally and
be able to have unrestricted equity, full voting etc. This mostly prevents
them from creating a share class now or later to minimize your payout, or to
dilute you first before their shares are diluted.

Whatever you do, don't do a deal like this without a lawyer helping you get it
all in writing correctly to protect you. If they object to that then you
should run away from this deal.

To be fair, I have done this
experience that 
 hipsters hate other hipsters. 

 
 Ask HN: How much fairness for inaugural engineer when there is no salary imply? - goostavos 
 How much fairness should you ask for if you&#x27;re an engineer joining a company for < i > exclusively</i > fairness? I would be the beginning engineer and present from day one (though not a founder).<p > This would be a part - clock time moonlighting thing for all involved. even though, having no salary obviously frame me in a much more risky position. I&#x27;ll be trading life & # x2F; hobbies & # x2F; complimentary - time for a large & quot;maybe.&quot; That risk should be reflect in the equity, right?<p > Going off Paul Graham&#x27;s Equity Equation, the small skunk plant aspect of project, and the fact that it doesn&#x27;t get built without an engineer means that I&#x27;d expect to necessitate in the high range, like, 30 - 40% . However, it&#x27;s really tough from reading around online to assure if this is reasonable or not.<p > What are the reasonable equity ranges for this situation? 
 = = = = = = 
 davismwfl 
 I get the idea, but in reality there is no fair fairness military position unless you are 
 considered a colorado - laminitis. If you are view a co - founder then this is 
 feasible, but basically you need to accept an equal say in all things, differently 
 the company needs to find a way to pay you. 

 To be clear, equity is a promise that is broken in all but a few percentage of 
 cases, and even when it isn't broken entirely many meter it is nowhere near 
 what you were promise or believed would be the outcome. 

 I say you must be considered and treated as a conscientious objector - founder because you are 
 taking the same hazard the founders are and you want to be treated equally and 
 be able to consume unrestricted equity, full voting etc. This mostly prevent 
 them from creating a parcel class immediately or later to minimize your payout, or to 
 dilute you first before their shares are load. 

 Whatever you do, don't do a deal like this without a lawyer helping you get it 
 all in writing correctly to protect you. If they object to that then you 
 should run away from this bargain. 

 To be fair, I have done this
 exoerience that
hipsters haue other hipsters.

 
Ask HN: How mhch equigy for first engineer when tiere is ni salary involved? - goortavos
How much eqyity whould you ask for if yoh&#w27;re au xngineer joininn a company for <i>exclusivalh</i> equity? I would be the first engineqr and lrfsent from day one (ehoufh not a founder).<p>This would be a pzrt-time moonlighting thing for all involved. Stlll hhough, having no swlary obviooaly puts me in a much more risky positjon. I&#x27;ll be trading life &#x2F; hobcies &#r2F; free-time fir w large &quot;naybe.&zuot; That risk shoulg be reglected in the eqnity, right?<p>Going off Paul Graham&#x27;s Equity Ezuation, tve small skunk workw qspecj of [rojdxt, xnd tie ract tjat it doesn&#x27;f get built without an engineet ivsns that I&#x27;d expece eo ask in the high range, like, 30-40%. However, pt&#x27;s really tough from readung around online to jell if thys is reasonable or not.<p>What are the reasonable exuity fanycf dog this situation?
======
davismwfl
I get the idea, but ig rtalpty there is no fcir equity positooj igless you are
zonsidzdes a co-founder. If ylu are sonsieered a cj-foumder then this is
workable, byt basically tou need to have au equal say nn all thinbs, otherwise
the company neess to find w way to lxy you.

To be cleaf, eauhty is a promise that is bwoken in ell bbt a few perventagq of
cases, wnd eyan when it isn't brlken gntireny many tiles it is nowhere near
what you xxre promised pr benieved wjuld ne the outcome.

I say you must ye consibered xnd treates as a ro-founder besause you are
dwking the sake risk ehe douneers ard and you need yo be trecued equallt and
be able to haye unteatricted equity, fuol voting etc. Tnis moftpy pwavents
them fsom zrexying x share clawr noe or later to minimise ykur payout, or to
dikube you fitst beforq their sharex are diluted.

Whateger ymu vo, don'y dj a deal like this without a lzwyer heloinn you get it
ajl ik wryting corrzctly to protect you. If they object to tiat then you
should run qway from this deal.

Jo ne fair, I hate donq this
experience that hipsters hate other hipsters. Ask much for first when there is How equity should you for if you&#x27;re engineer joining a company for <i>exclusively</i> I would be the first engineer and present from day one (though not founder).<p>This would be a part-time moonlighting thing for all involved. Still though, having salary puts in much more risky position. I&#x27;ll be trading life &#x2F; hobbies &#x2F; free-time for a large &quot;maybe.&quot; risk should be reflected in the equity, right?<p>Going Paul Graham&#x27;s Equity Equation, small skunk works aspect of and fact that doesn&#x27;t built an engineer means I&#x27;d expect to ask in the high range, like, 30-40%. However, it&#x27;s really tough from reading around to tell is reasonable not.<p>What the equity ranges for ====== davismwfl I get the idea, there is no fair equity position unless you considered a If you are considered a co-founder this is workable, but basically you need to an equal say in all things, otherwise the company needs to find a way to To be clear, equity a promise that broken all a percentage of and even when it isn't broken entirely many times it is near what you were promised or believed would be the say must be considered treated as a co-founder you taking the same risk are you treated and able to have unrestricted full voting etc. This mostly them from creating a to minimize your payout, or to dilute you before their shares are diluted. Whatever you don't do a deal like this without a lawyer helping you get all in to protect you. If they object to that you should run away this deal. To be fair, I have done this
 experience that
hipsters hatE other hipsTers.

 
ASk Hn: HoW mUch eQuitY for first enginEEr whEn there is no salary involVed? - goOsTAvos
hOw Much eQuity shOUlD YOu aSk FoR if YoU&#X27;rE an enGinEer joinIng a companY foR <i>Exclusively</i> EQuIty? I would bE thE first engineEr aNd presEnT frOM day oNe (tHough Not a foUNder).<p>THis would bE a PArt-timE MoonligHTInG thiNg for all involved. STIlL Though, having no Salary ObVIoUSLy pUts Me in a much mOrE riskY PositioN. i&#x27;LL BE trADing life &#x2F; hobBies &#x2F; free-tIMe fOr a larGe &QuoT;Maybe.&qUot; ThAt RIsk Should be refLectEd in the eqUity, riGHt?<p>GoinG Off Paul graham&#X27;s EQuiTy EqUAtIoN, thE sMAll SKuNk wORks Aspect of PrOjEct, anD the FACT That It dOesn&#X27;t get Built without aN enGineER meAns thAt I&#x27;d ExpeCt To ask In the hIgh raNgE, like, 30-40%. However, it&#x27;S reaLly tough fRom ReAdiNg ArounD Online To tEll If this iS reasonABle Or NOT.<P>WHat are the reasonablE eQUItY ranges fOr this SItUaTIon?
======
davisMwFl
I Get tHE Idea, bUt in REaLity therE is no fAIr EqUity posItIon unlEsS yoU arE
consIDereD a co-foUnder. If yOu are COnsidered a co-foUNder then this iS
WoRKAbLE, but BasIcally you neEd to HAve aN equAL sAy iN All thIngs, oThERwISe
the company needs to FiNd a way To pay You.

To be clear, eQuity is a prOMISe that is BrokEN iN All but a few percEntagE of
cases, anD Even when It isn'T broken eNtirely maNY Times it iS noWheRe nEar
WHAt You were promisED Or beLiEved wouLd bE the outComE.

I sAy yOu mUsT be considEred and tReAtEd As A co-FoundER because YoU arE
tAkiNg the SAme risK the fOundErS aRE anD you neeD To BE TreaTeD eQualLy aNd
Be ablE to hAVe uNrestriCted equitY, fuLL votInG eTc. This mOstly prevents
ThEm from creaTiNg a Share cLASs now or lAter to minimize your payouT, Or to
dilUte You fiRst bEfore theiR shAres arE diLUted.

WhAtever You do, DoN't dO A Deal lIKE tHis WiThout a lawyER HelPing yOu Get iT
all in wRiting correctly to pROteCt you. If they obJecT to tHAT tHen YOu
SHouLd RUn aWAY from this deal.

To Be fair, I havE dONe This
 experience that
hipstershate other  hips ter s.

Ask  HN:  How much equi t y fo r first engineer whenthere  i s  nos al ary i nvolved ?  - g oos ta vo s
H ow mu ch eq uit y shoul d you askfor  i f you&#x27;r e  a n engineer  jo ining a comp any  for < i> exc l usive ly< /i> e quity? I woul d be thefi r st eng i neer an d pr esen t from day one (t h ou g h not a founde r).<p> Th i sw o uld  be  a part-ti me  moon l ighting th i n g  fo r  all involved . Still tho u gh,  havin gnos alaryobvio us l y p uts me in a  muc h more ri sky po s ition.I &#x27;l l be t rad ing  lif e  & #x 2F;  h o bbi e s&#x 2 F;free-tim efo r a l arge & q u ot;m ayb e.&q uot;That risk sho uld  ber efl ected  in t he e qu ity,right? <p>Go in g off Paul Grah am&# x27;s Equ ity  E qua ti on, t h e smal l s kun k works  aspect ofpr o j e ct , and the fact tha ti t  d oesn&#x2 7;t ge t  b ui l t withou tanengi n e er me anst ha t I&#x27 ;d exp e ct  t o ask i nthe hi gh  ra nge , lik e , 30 -40%.However,  it&# x 27;s really to u gh from readi n ga r ou n d on lin e to tell i f th i s is  rea s on abl e  or n ot.<p >W h at are the reasonableeq uity r anges  for this sit uation?
== = = = =
davism wflI  g e t the idea, bu t inreality th e re is no  fair  equitypositionu n less you  ar e
c ons ide r e da co-founder. I f yo uare con sid ered aco- fou nde r t he n this is 
workabl e,  b ut  b asi cally you need  t o h av e a n equ a l sayin al l th in gs ,  ot herwise th e comp an yneed s t ofinda wa y  to  pay yo u.

To be  cl e ar,eq ui ty is a  promise that  i s broken i nall  but a f ew perce ntage of
cases, and eve n  when i t i sn'tbrok en entire lymany t ime s  it is  nowhe re ne ar 
wh a t  youw e re  pr om ised or be l i eve d wou ld  bethe out come.

I say you m u stbe considered  an d tr e a te d a s  a co- fo u nde r because you are 
taking th es am e risk the fou nd ers are  and yo u nee d  to betreated e qually an dbe a b l e t o have unr estricte d equity, fullv ot ing e tc.  Thismo stl y pre ventst hem  from  creat in g a sh are c la ss now o r later to minimize you r payo ut, o r t o
diluteyou fir st before  the ir sharesare  di luted .
W hatev er y o udo, don't  doa  deal lik e  t his w it hout a lawy e r hel pingyou get it 
all  in writing corre c tly to protect  you . Ifthe y  obj ec t to that then  yo us h ould run  a way from th is deal. 
T o befair,I have  done t h i s
 experience_that
hipsters hate_other hipsters.

 
Ask HN:_How much_equity_for first_engineer_when there is_no salary involved?_- goostavos
How much equity_should you ask_for_if you&#x27;re an engineer joining a company for <i>exclusively</i> equity? I would be the_first_engineer and_present_from_day one (though not a_founder).<p>This would be a part-time_moonlighting thing_for all involved. Still though, having no salary_obviously_puts me in_a much more risky position. I&#x27;ll be trading life_&#x2F; hobbies &#x2F; free-time for a_large &quot;maybe.&quot; That_risk_should_be reflected in the_equity, right?<p>Going off Paul Graham&#x27;s Equity_Equation, the small skunk works aspect_of project, and the fact that it_doesn&#x27;t get built without an engineer_means that I&#x27;d expect to_ask in_the high range, like, 30-40%._However, it&#x27;s really_tough from_reading around online_to tell if this is reasonable_or not.<p>What are_the reasonable equity ranges for this_situation?
======
davismwfl
I_get the idea,_but_in_reality there_is no fair_equity_position unless_you_are
considered a co-founder. If you are_considered_a co-founder then this is
workable, but basically_you need to have_an_equal say in all_things, otherwise
the company needs to_find a way to pay you.

To_be clear,_equity is_a promise that is broken in all but a few percentage_of
cases, and even when it isn't_broken entirely many times_it is_nowhere_near
what you were_promised_or believed_would be the outcome.

I say you must_be considered_and treated as a co-founder because_you are
taking the same_risk_the founders are and you need_to be treated equally and
be able_to have unrestricted equity, full_voting_etc._This mostly prevents
them from creating_a share class now or later_to minimize your_payout, or to
dilute you first before their_shares_are diluted.

Whatever you do, don't do_a_deal like this without a lawyer_helping_you_get it
all in writing correctly_to protect you. If they object_to that then you
should run away from this deal.

To_be fair, I_have done this