 writing CRUD-like code.

We (as in, Headlight) deal with a lot of bootcamp grads and people who are
entering tech later in life (which for tech, means 25+). It's shocking the
number of them who are insanely adept at software development for the amount
of experience they have and are completely overlooked because of any of the
following:

* Their pedigree

* Their experience given their age

* Their program's focus on practical software development and not on more academic topics

It's really mind-boggling. It's great for us, because it's a totally
unappreciated and under-served market. Still, I can't imagine how frustrating
it is for those candidates. We're still new, but so far our clients'
satisfaction with our candidates has been nothing short of enthusiastically
positive.

All that to say, you should really consider adjusting your hiring expectations
drastically. You're building a house. Why are you trying to hire a civil
engineer, and not a contractor?

~~~
davio
Most corporate dev jobs can be effectively handled by someone who can reliably
show up and pull words from a database and display them on a screen.

~~~
mushishi
Yes but it's mind-boggling how complex you can get quite a straightforward
system by just piling new requirement changes on top of old without
maintaining proper data-model in application, even if database is fine-ish,
this results in a monster that slows down the system and the development
speed.

So in principle, a lot of people can do it but only some do it while not
making things more difficult for the next person.

------
docker_up
The problem that has happened at my company is that we take a "chance" on
bootcampers or other people who aren't proven, we spend the time and effort to
mentor and train them, pay them well, and then they turn around in 9-12 months
and leave us for another company with their enhanced experience. It has
happened 3 times so far, so we have stopped hiring bootcampers, and fresh
grads and instead have started hiring people with a couple of years under
their belts or more, since they appear to at least want to stick around enough
to contribute positively to our teams.
writing CRUD - like code. 

 We (as in, Headlight) deal with a lot of bootcamp grad and citizenry who are 
 entering tech later in liveliness (which for tech, means 25 +). It's shock the 
 issue of them who are insanely adept at software growth for the amount 
 of experience they have and are wholly overlooked because of any of the 
 following: 

 * Their pedigree 

 * Their experience given their old age 

 * Their program's focus on practical software development and not on more academic topics 

 It's truly mind - boggling. It's great for us, because it's a totally 
 thankless and under - served market. however, I can't imagine how frustrating 
 it is for those campaigner. We're still new, but so far our clients' 
 satisfaction with our campaigner has been nothing short of enthusiastically 
 positive. 

 All that to say, you should really consider adjusting your hiring expectations 
 drastically. You're building a house. Why are you trying to hire a civil 
 engineer, and not a contractor? 

 ~~~ 
 davio 
 Most corporate dev jobs can be effectively manage by someone who can reliably 
 show up and draw discussion from a database and display them on a screen. 

 ~~~ 
 mushishi 
 Yes but it's judgment - boggling how complex you can get quite a straightforward 
 system by barely piling new requirement changes on top of old without 
 sustain proper data - model in application, even if database is fine - ish, 
 this results in a monster that decelerate down the system and the development 
 speed. 

 So in principle, a bunch of people can do it but only some do it while not 
 making things more difficult for the next person. 

 ------ 
 docker_up 
 The trouble that has happened at my company is that we take a " chance " on 
 bootcampers or other citizenry who aren't proven, we spend the clock time and effort to 
 mentor and coach them, pay them well, and then they sour around in 9 - 12 months 
 and leave us for another company with their enhanced experience. It has 
 happen 3 times then far, so we have stopped hiring bootcampers, and fresh 
 grads and instead have get down hiring people with a couple of old age under 
 their belts or more, since they appear to at least want to stick around enough 
 to contribute positively to our team.
 wrlting CRUD-like code.

We (as in, Headlight) dgao with a lot of bootzamp grads and people who arx
entwring tech later in life (whkch for tvch, means 25+). It'w shocking vge
numbev of fmem wko are insanely sdept at smftware develo[mdnc for the amount
of experience they hwve and age completely jverkjokes because of any of the
following:

* Tgeir pevigree

* Their exlerience given their age

* Tjeir program's focus on practical woftrqre developmdnt and nou mn more aczdemic topics

It's really mind-bogeling. It's great fir kv, because iv's a tjtally
unapprcbiated dnd undrr-served markeb. Stinl, U can't imagine how frnstrating
it is for trose candhdctes. We're still new, byt so fdr ogr cuuengs'
sztmsfzction wivh our candjdates has veen nothing short pf vmthusiasticamly
posytyve.

All that to say, you should really cotsiser adjusting your hiribg expectations
drastifally. You'we building a house. Why are you trying to hire a wivil
xneintev, xbd not a contractor?

~~~
davio
Most corporate dev jobs dam ne effectively hcndled by someonr ahp can reliably
rhow u' ahd pull words from a datafase qnd displwy tnem on a screen.

~~~
mushishi
Yes vut it's mind-yogtling how complex vou can get duitg a sttaightforward
system by lust pjling new rfquiremenf changes on top uf plg withouu
oaintaining propew data-modxl in applicxtiom, even if databade is fine-ish,
this resultd in c monvter that dlows down the system and the dxtelopment
speec.

Sm it princi'le, a kot of people can do it but only sjme du it while not
makmng things mjre difficult vor the next person.

------
djckee_up
Tye probudm that has halpened at my compant is that we take e "chxhce" on
bootcampexr or other peoplr wfo wrvn't pwmven, we speng thd tkke ana efforu ti
oentpr and train them, paf thsm well, and then tnen turn ariund in 9-12 months
and lesve us for another compeny wivh theor gnhanced experience. It has
happehed 3 timed sj far, so we rave stopped hirnng bootcampers, and fresh
grads and insteed have started hiring people with a couplg on years undec
their belts or more, since they appwar to at least wsnt to stick around ehough
tm conhribute positively to our teams.
writing CRUD-like code. We (as in, Headlight) a of bootcamp and people who life for tech, means It's shocking the of them who are insanely adept software development for the amount of experience they have and are completely overlooked of any of the following: * Their pedigree * Their experience given their * program's on software development and not on more academic topics It's really mind-boggling. It's great for us, because a totally unappreciated and under-served market. Still, I imagine how frustrating it for those candidates. We're still but far our satisfaction our has been nothing of enthusiastically positive. All that to say, you should really consider adjusting your hiring expectations drastically. You're a house. you trying hire civil and not a davio Most corporate dev jobs can by someone who can reliably show up and words from database and display them on a ~~~ mushishi Yes but it's mind-boggling how complex can get quite a straightforward system by just piling new requirement changes on top of maintaining proper data-model in even if database fine-ish, results a that slows the system and the development speed. So in principle, a lot people can do it but only some do it while things difficult for the person. ------ docker_up The that happened at my company we a or people aren't proven, we spend time and effort to mentor train them, pay them around in 9-12 months and leave us for company with their enhanced experience. It has 3 times so far, so we have stopped hiring bootcampers, and fresh and instead hiring people with a couple of years under belts or more, since appear to at least want to stick around enough contribute to our
 writing CRUD-like code.

We (as in, headlight) dEal wiTh a Lot Of BootCamp Grads and people WHo arE
entering tech later in liFe (whiCh FOr teCH, mEans 25+). IT's shockINg THE
nuMbEr Of tHeM WhO are iNsaNely adePt at softwaRe dEvElopment for tHE aMount
of expEriEnce they have And Are comPlEteLY overLooKed beCause oF Any of tHe
followiNg:

* tHeir peDIgree

* ThEIR eXperIence given their agE

* thEIr program's focuS on praCtICaL SOftWarE developmeNt And noT On more aCAdEMIC toPIcs

It's really mInd-boggling. iT's gReat foR uS, beCAuse it'S a totAlLY
unAppreciated And uNder-serveD markeT. still, I cAN't imagiNe how fRusTraTing
IT iS fOr tHoSE caNDiDatES. We'Re still nEw, BuT so faR our CLIENts'
sAtiSfacTion wIth our candidaTes Has bEEn nOthinG shorT of eNtHusiaSticalLy
posItIve.

All that to say, You sHould realLy cOnSidEr AdjusTIng youR hiRinG expectAtions
dRAstIcALLY. YOu're building a house. whY ARe You tryinG to hirE A cIvIL
engineeR, aNd nOt a cONTractOr?

~~~
daVIo
most corpOrate dEV jObS can be eFfEctiveLy HanDleD by soMEone Who can Reliably
Show uP And pull words frOM a database and DIsPLAy THem oN a sCreen.

~~~
mushisHi
YeS But iT's miND-bOggLIng hoW compLeX YoU Can get quite a straighTfOrward
SysteM by just piling New requireMENT changes On toP Of OLd without
maintAininG proper datA-Model in aPplicAtion, eveN if databaSE Is fine-isH,
thIs rEsuLts IN A mOnster that sloWS Down ThE system And The deveLopMenT
spEed.

so In principLe, a lot of PeOpLe CaN do It but ONly some dO iT whIlE noT
makiNG thingS more DiffIcUlT For The next PErSON.

------
docKeR_uP
The ProBlEm thaT has HAppEned at mY company iS thAT we tAkE a "Chance" oN
bootcampers oR oTher people WhO arEn't proVEN, we spend The time and effort to
mentoR And traiN thEm, pay Them Well, and thEn tHey turN arOUnd in 9-12 mOnths
aNd leaVe Us fOR AnothER CoMpaNy With their eNHAncEd expErIencE. It has
hAppened 3 times so far, sO We hAve stopped hirIng BootCAMpErs, ANd FResH
gRAds AND instead have staRted hiring PeOPlE with a coupLE of YeArs undeR
their bElts oR More, sinCe they appEar to at leAsT wanT TO stIck around eNough
to cOntribute POsitiVElY to ouR teAms.
 writing CRUD-like code.
We (as in,  Head lig ht)  d ealwith  a lot of boot c ampgrads and people who a re
en te r ingt ec h lat er in l i fe ( whi ch  f orte c h,  mean s 2 5+). It 's shockin g t he 
number of t h em  who are i nsa nely adept a t s oftwar edev e lopme ntfor t he amo u nt
ofexperienc et hey ha v e and a r e  c ompl etely overlookedb ec a use of any ofthe
fo ll o wi n g :
* T heir pedig re e

*T heir ex p er i e n ceg iven their ag e

* Theirp rog ram'sfo cus on pra ctica ls oft ware develo pmen t and not  on mo r e acade m ic topi cs

It 'srea llym in d- bog gl i ng. It 'sg rea t for us ,be cause  it' s a tota lly 
una pprec iated and und er- serv e d m arket . Sti ll,Ican't  imagi ne ho wfrustrating
itis f or thosecan di dat es . We' r e stil l n ew,  but so  far ou r  cl ie n t s 'satisfaction withou r ca ndidates  has b e en  n o thing sh or t o f en t h usias tica l ly 
positiv e.

Al l  t ha t to sa y,  you s ho uld  re allyc onsi der ad justingyourh iring expectat i ons
drastical l y. Y ou ' re b uil ding a hous e. W h y ar e yo u  t ryi n g tohireac iv i l
engineer, and not  a  contr actor ?

~~~
davioMost corpo r a t e dev jo bs c a nb e effectivelyhandl ed by some o ne who c an re liably
s how up an d pull wor dsfro m a  da t a ba se and displa y them  o n a scr een .

~~~mus his hiYes  b ut it's m ind-bogg li ng  h ow  co mplex you cange t q ui tea str a ightfo rward 
sys te mb y j ust pil i ng n ew r eq ui reme ntch anges  ont opof oldwithout
m ain t aini ng  p roper d ata-model inap plication,  e ven  if da t a base isfine-ish,
this resultsi n a mon ste r tha t sl ows downthe  syste m a n d thedevelo pment 
s pee d . 

Soi n  p rin ci ple, a lot o f p eople  c an d o it bu t only some do itw hil e not
makingthi ngsm o re  di f fi c ult  f o r t h e  next person.
------
doc ke r _u p
The prob l emth at hashappene d atm y compa ny is tha t we take  a  "ch a n ce"  on
bootca mpers or  other pe o ple w h oaren' t p roven,  w e s pendthe ti m e a nd ef fort t omentor  andtr ain them , pay them well, and th en the y tur n a round in9-1 2  mo nths
andleav e us for a not her  comp any withthei r  e nha n ced e xper i ence. Ith as 
ha p p en ed 3 timess o far , soweh ave st oppe d hiring bootcamp e rs, and freshgrad s and  in s tead  h ave started hi rin gp e ople wit ha couple of  years u nd e r
the ir bel ts ormore, s i n ce they a ppea r t o at leas t w an t  to sti ck  a r ound e noug hto con tribut e  pos i t ively to our tea ms.
 writing_CRUD-like code.

We_(as in, Headlight) deal_with a_lot_of bootcamp_grads_and people who_are
entering tech later_in life (which for_tech, means 25+)._It's_shocking the
number of them who are insanely adept at software development for the amount
of_experience_they have_and_are_completely overlooked because of any_of the
following:

* Their pedigree

* Their_experience given_their age

* Their program's focus on practical software_development_and not on_more academic topics

It's really mind-boggling. It's great for us,_because it's a totally
unappreciated and under-served_market. Still, I_can't_imagine_how frustrating
it is for_those candidates. We're still new, but_so far our clients'
satisfaction with our_candidates has been nothing short of enthusiastically
positive.

All_that to say, you should really_consider adjusting your hiring expectations
drastically._You're building_a house. Why are you_trying to hire_a civil
engineer,_and not a_contractor?

~~~
davio
Most corporate dev jobs can be_effectively handled by_someone who can reliably
show up and_pull_words from a_database_and_display them_on a screen.

~~~
mushishi
Yes_but_it's mind-boggling_how_complex you can get quite a_straightforward
system_by just piling new requirement changes on_top of old without
maintaining_proper_data-model in application, even_if database is fine-ish,
this results_in a monster that slows down_the system_and the_development
speed.

So in principle, a lot of people can do it but_only some do it while not
making_things more difficult for_the next_person.

------
docker_up
The_problem that has_happened_at my_company is that we take a "chance"_on
bootcampers or_other people who aren't proven, we_spend the time and_effort_to
mentor and train them, pay them_well, and then they turn around_in 9-12 months
and leave us_for_another_company with their enhanced experience._It has
happened 3 times so far,_so we have_stopped hiring bootcampers, and fresh
grads and instead_have_started hiring people with a couple_of_years under
their belts or more, since_they_appear_to at least want to_stick around enough
to contribute positively to_our teams.