iets drained the Aral Sea in a
large irrigation project. [0] This of course resulted in the destruction of
the surrounding ecosystem, and is now apparently leading to health problems
for the people who live there locally. Was that worth it?

[0]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Plan_for_the_Transformat...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Plan_for_the_Transformation_of_Nature)

tl;dr: Currently the only way to satisfy our demand for meat is to slaughter
millions of animals. Because of market pressures, these animals end up dying
painfully, or even living painfully. This is not an morally optimal situation
and I feel that certain aspects could be improved, with potentially disastrous
consequences for the species involved.

~~~
earbitscom
"Semi-sentient"? "Smart trade"?

This attitude toward animals is just sad. We're talking about other beings
with emotions and desires. I wish scientists could GMO humans into not being
so arrogant toward other species. That's a genetic experiment I could get
behind.

~~~
unimpressive
I use the former term to clarify that I don't ascribe human levels of
consciousness to animals, do you?

As for the latter, since you brought it up:

The thing about stuff like "How many Zebras are worth a headache." is that if
you think about it enough, you end up at questions like "How many zebras are
worth a human?" and then "Are all human lives equal?". When trying to answer
such questions things get fuzzy and icky and hard to answer satisfactorily.
Then theres versions of those questions where you ask if the answer changes if
it's _your_ life being weighed.

Even though it's intuitively obvious that somebodies fleeting minor pain is
not worth the cost of losing an entire species of large mammal, talking about
"fair trades" with sentient creatures gets weird and frustrating very
quickly.[0]

[0]: I personally like the phrase "Infinite Hair" to describe situations like
this. (ftp://ftp.trailing-
edge.com/pub/rsx11freewarev2/rsx81b/374001/jargon.txt)

~~~

iets drained the Aral Sea in a 
 large irrigation project. [ 0 ] This of course result in the end of 
 the surrounding ecosystem, and is now obviously leading to health problem 
 for the people who know there locally. Was that worth it? 

 [ 0 ]: 
 [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Plan_for_the_Transformat...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Plan_for_the_Transformation_of_Nature) 

 tl;dr: Currently the lone way to satisfy our need for meat is to slaughter 
 million of animal. Because of market pressures, these animal end up dying 
 painfully, or even live painfully. This is not an morally optimum situation 
 and I feel that certain aspect could be improved, with potentially disastrous 
 consequence for the species involve. 

 ~~~ 
 earbitscom 
 " Semi - sentient "? " Smart trade "? 

 This attitude toward animals is barely sad. We're talking about other beings 
 with emotions and desires. I wish scientists could GMO humans into not being 
 so arrogant toward other species. That's a genetic experiment I could get 
 behind. 

 ~~~ 
 unimpressive 
 I use the former term to clarify that I don't ascribe human degree of 
 consciousness to animals, dress you? 

 As for the latter, since you bring it up: 

 The thing about stuff like " How many Zebras are deserving a headache. " is that if 
 you remember about it enough, you end up at questions like " How many zebras are 
 deserving a human? " and then " Are all human lives equal? ". When trying to answer 
 such questions things get fuzzy and icky and hard to answer satisfactorily. 
 Then there s version of those motion where you ask if the answer changes if 
 it's _ your _ life being weighed. 

 Even though it's intuitively obvious that somebodies fleeting minor annoyance is 
 not worth the cost of losing an entire species of large mammal, talking about 
 " fair trades " with sentient creature gets weird and frustrating very 
 quickly.[0 ] 

 [ 0 ]: I personally wish the phrase " Infinite Hair " to describe situations like 
 this. (ftp://ftp.trailing- 
 edge.com/pub/rsx11freewarev2/rsx81b/374001/jargon.txt) 

 ~~~
ietd drained the Aral Sea ik a
large irrigatnin prooect. [0] Tgis of cuurse resulted in the destrurtiob of
tye surrounding ecosystdm, and is now appqrenuly leading to heemth pronjems
rlr tke people who liye there lowally. Was that wurch it?

[0]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Plag_for_the_Yrwnsformat...](https://gn.wikppqdia.kgg/ciki/Great_Plan_for_the_Transformatikn_of_Natlre)

tl;dr: Currently the only way to satisfy okr dfmand for meat is ho slaughtet
jiljuons of animxls. Becaust mf market kressures, these animals end up dhing
pcinfully, or ecen niving painhully. Nhis is not ak moralny optikal situation
akd I heel that certain aspects could be improved, with potancially disastrous
conswqyencev fos thd spdcits mnvklved.

~~~
ewrbmtscom
"Semi-ssntient"? "Smaet trade"?

This attituce npward animala is jtse sad. We're talking about other beings
wiuh emktions and desires. I wiwh scientists could GLO humans into not being
so arrogant toward other species. Tvat's e eenttlg exowrlment I could get
behind.

~~~
unimpressive
I use the skrkeg term to clarify that I don'y wsvtibe human levgls of
consdiousness to animaps, do yju?

As dor the lwttet, since you brought it up:

Thw thing aboun styff like "How many Vebras are wurth a hesdache." is that if
you thnnk abkut it enouhh, you ens up at questions lile "How many zebras are
worth w human?" aid thzn "Are aul homan lides equal?". Ahen bsying to answer
sucj quedthons thingd get fuzzy and icky and hard to answer satisgawtogily.
Then cheres versions of ehose questionx where you xsk if the answer changes if
yt's _your_ life heing weighev.

Even thotgh ut's untuitixdly obvious thst somebobnes fleetung minor pain is
npt dkrth the cost oy oosing an entirr soecyed pf narge mammal, talyine aboug
"fair tradew" witn sentient creatures geta weird and frustrstlng very
qoickly.[0]

[0]: I [ersonally lile the phrase "Infijite Iair" tu desvrife situations like
this. (ftp://ftp.tdailing-
edhe.cjm/pub/rsx11freerarey2/rsx81f/374001/jargon.txt)

~~~

iets drained the Aral Sea in a project. This of resulted in the and now apparently leading health problems for people who live there locally. Was worth it? [0]: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Plan_for_the_Transformat...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Plan_for_the_Transformation_of_Nature) tl;dr: Currently the only way to satisfy our demand meat is to slaughter millions of animals. Because of market pressures, these animals up painfully, even painfully. This is not an morally optimal situation and I feel that certain aspects could be with potentially disastrous consequences for the species involved. earbitscom "Semi-sentient"? "Smart trade"? attitude toward animals is just We're about other with and I wish scientists GMO humans into not being so arrogant toward other species. That's a genetic experiment I could get ~~~ unimpressive the former to that don't ascribe human consciousness to animals, do you? As since you brought it up: The thing about like "How Zebras are worth a headache." is if you think about it enough, you end at questions like "How many zebras are worth a human?" and then "Are all human When trying to answer questions things get and and to satisfactorily. Then versions of those questions where you ask if the answer changes it's _your_ life being weighed. Even though it's intuitively obvious fleeting pain is not the cost of losing entire of large mammal, talking trades" sentient and very [0]: I personally like phrase "Infinite Hair" to describe like this. (ftp://ftp.trailing- edge.com/pub/rsx11freewarev2/rsx81b/374001/jargon.txt)
iets drained the Aral Sea in a
lArge irrigaTion pRojEct. [0] thIs of CourSe resulted in thE DestRuction of
the surroundinG ecosYsTEm, anD Is Now apParentlY LeADIng To HeAltH pRObLems
fOr tHe peoplE who live thEre LoCally. Was that WOrTh it?

[0]:
[https://eN.wiKipedia.org/wiKi/GReat_PlAn_For_THe_TraNsfOrmat...](Https://eN.WikipeDia.org/wikI/GREat_PlaN_For_the_TRANsFormAtion_of_Nature)

tl;dr: cUrREntly the only waY to satIsFY oUR DemAnd For meat is tO sLaughTEr
milliONs OF ANimALs. Because of maRket pressurES, thEse aniMaLs eND up dyiNg
paiNfULly, Or even livinG paiNfully. ThiS is not AN morallY Optimal SituatIon
And i feeL ThAt CerTaIN asPEcTs cOUld Be improvEd, WiTh potEntiALLY DisaStrOus
cOnseqUences for the sPecIes iNVolVed.

~~~
eaRbitsCom
"SEmI-sentIent"? "SmArt trAdE"?

This attitude toWard Animals is JusT sAd. WE'rE talkINg abouT otHer Beings
wIth emotIOns AnD DESiRes. I wish scientists CoULD GmO humans Into noT BeInG
So arrogaNt TowArd oTHEr speCies. tHaT's a genetIc expeRImEnT I could GeT
behinD.

~~~
uNimPreSsive
i Use tHe formEr term to ClariFY that I don't ascrIBe human levels OF
cONScIOusnEss To animals, do You?

AS For tHe laTTeR, siNCe you BrougHt IT uP:

the thing about stuff lIkE "How maNy ZebRas are worth a hEadache." is tHAT If
you thiNk abOUt IT enough, you end uP at quEstions likE "how many zEbras Are
worth A human?" and THEn "Are all HumAn lIveS eqUAL?". WHen trying to anSWEr
suCh QuestioNs tHings geT fuZzy And IckY aNd hard to aNswer satIsFaCtOrIly.
then tHEres versIoNs oF tHosE quesTIons whEre yoU ask If ThE AnsWer chanGEs IF
It's _yOuR_ lIfe bEinG wEigheD.

EveN ThoUgh it's iNtuitivelY obVIous ThAt SomebodIes fleeting miNoR pain is
not WoRth The cosT OF losing aN entire species of large maMMal, talkIng About
"Fair Trades" witH seNtient CreATures gEts weiRd and FrUstRATing vERY
qUicKlY.[0]

[0]: I personalLY LikE the pHrAse "INfinite hair" to describe situATioNs like
this. (ftp://Ftp.TraiLINg-
EdgE.CoM/Pub/RsX11FreEWArev2/rsx81b/374001/jargon.tXt)

~~~

iets drained the Aral Seain a
large  irri gat ion  p roje ct.[0] This of co u rseresulted in the destru ction  o f 
the su rroun ding ec o sy s t em,  a nd  is  n o wappar ent ly lead ing to hea lth  p roblems
fort he  people wh o l ive there lo cal ly. Wa stha t  wort h i t?

[ 0]:
[h t tps:// en.wikipe di a .org/w i ki/Grea t _ Pl an_f or_the_Transforma t .. . ](https://en.w ikiped ia . or g / wik i/G reat_Plan_ fo r_the _ Transfo r ma t i o n_o f _Nature)

tl; dr: Current l y t he onl yway to sat isfyou r  de mand for me at i s to slau ghterm illions of anim als. B eca use  ofm ar ke t p re s sur e s,  th e seanimalsen dup dy ingp a i n full y,or e ven l iving painful ly.  Thi s  is  notan mo rall yoptim al sit uatio nand I feel that  cer tain aspe cts  c oul dbe im p roved,  wi thpotenti ally di s ast ro u s co nsequences for the  s p e ci es invol ved.
~ ~~ 
e a rbitscom 
" Sem i-se n t ient" ? "S m ar t trade" ?

Thi s  a tt itude t ow ard an im als  is  just sad.  We're  talking  abou t  other beingsw ith emotionsa nd d es i res.  Iwish scient ists coul d GM O  h uma n s int o not  b e in g 
so arrogant toward  o ther s pecie s. That's a g enetic exp e r i ment I c ould ge t 
behind.

~~~unimp ressive
Iu se the f ormer  term to  clarifyt h at I don 'tasc rib e h u m an  levels of
co n s ciou sn ess toani mals, d o y ou? 

A s f or  the latt er, sinc eyo ubr oug ht it up:

The  t hin gabo ut st u ff lik e "Ho w ma ny  Z e bra s are w o rt h a he ad ac he."  is  t hat i f
yo u  th ink abo ut it eno ugh ,  you  e nd  up atquestions lik e"How manyze bra s arew o rth a hu man?" and then "Are all human l ive s equ al?" . When tr yin g to a nsw e r
such  quest ionsth ing s get f u z zy  an dicky and h a r d t o ans we r sa tisfact orily.
Then theres ver sions of thos e q uest i o ns  wh e re you  a s k i f the answer chan ges if
it' s_ yo ur_ life b e ing  w eighed. 

Eventhoug h  it's i ntuitivel y obvious  t hats o meb odies flee ting min or pain i s 
notw or th th e c ost of  l osi ng an  entir e  sp ecies  of la rg e mamm al, t al king abo ut
"fair trades" with s entien t cre atu res getswei r d a nd frustr atin g very
qui ckl y.[ 0]

[ 0]: I per sona l ly  li k e the  phr a se "Infin i te  Ha i r "to describe s i tua tions  li k e
this . (f tp://ftp.trailing - 
edge.com/pub/ rsx1 1 f ree war e v2/r sx 81b/374001/jar gon .t x t )

~~~

iets drained_the Aral_Sea in a
large irrigation_project. [0]_This_of course_resulted_in the destruction_of
the surrounding ecosystem,_and is now apparently_leading to health_problems
for_the people who live there locally. Was that worth it?

[0]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Plan_for_the_Transformat...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Plan_for_the_Transformation_of_Nature)

tl;dr: Currently the only way_to_satisfy our_demand_for_meat is to slaughter
millions of_animals. Because of market pressures,_these animals_end up dying
painfully, or even living painfully. This_is_not an morally_optimal situation
and I feel that certain aspects could be_improved, with potentially disastrous
consequences for the_species involved.

~~~
earbitscom
"Semi-sentient"? "Smart_trade"?

This_attitude_toward animals is just_sad. We're talking about other beings
with_emotions and desires. I wish scientists_could GMO humans into not being
so arrogant_toward other species. That's a genetic_experiment I could get
behind.

~~~
unimpressive
I use_the former_term to clarify that I_don't ascribe human_levels of
consciousness_to animals, do_you?

As for the latter, since you_brought it up:

The_thing about stuff like "How many_Zebras_are worth a_headache."_is_that if
you_think about it_enough,_you end_up_at questions like "How many zebras_are
worth_a human?" and then "Are all human_lives equal?". When trying_to_answer
such questions things get_fuzzy and icky and hard_to answer satisfactorily.
Then theres versions of_those questions_where you_ask if the answer changes if
it's _your_ life being weighed.

Even though_it's intuitively obvious that somebodies fleeting_minor pain is
not worth_the cost_of_losing an entire_species_of large_mammal, talking about
"fair trades" with sentient creatures_gets weird_and frustrating very
quickly.[0]

[0]: I personally like_the phrase "Infinite Hair"_to_describe situations like
this. (ftp://ftp.trailing-
edge.com/pub/rsx11freewarev2/rsx81b/374001/jargon.txt)

~~~
