boring and just entirely functional. And that is what techies actually use.

------
_bxg1
I think the vitriol against JavaScript is unfair, but I absolutely agree that
if native cross-platform desktop development weren't so horrendous, many
things that currently use Electron, wouldn't. The web's main draw these days
is that it's a free, cross-platform GUI platform that sees _active development
and community support_. That's the bar.

All of that said - and I've said this elsewhere before - _JavaScript is not
the problem with Electron._ I'm so weary of hearing this. Even the web is not
really the problem with Electron. Electron's problem is that there's no way to
share Chromium instances across installations or processes. _That's it_.

~~~
giulianob
It's both. Go look at your memory usage per tab and it's not uncommon to see
hundreds of megabytes for a simple static 2d UI. The way web renders is
extremely inefficient then you couple that with a language that has no regards
for how a computer actually works and you get to the sad state we're in today.

~~~
_bxg1
> hundreds of megabytes for a simple static 2d UI

Without a specific example that's hard to argue against, but I would wager it
has more to do with images, unnecessarily complex DOM, and possibly just poor
engineering, as opposed to JavaScript itself.

> that has no regards for how a computer actually works

You mean like Python? And Lisp? If you're taking issue with the very concept
of high-level languages then state it as such, and good luck making a case for
that.

------
giulianob
I recently went through this exercise and it really is sad. I actually decided
to use the Godot game engine because at the end of the day it's fairly
lightweight, you're in complete control over the rendering, the built in
components are great (the editor itself is written in the game engine), it
supports C#/C++, it runs literally everywhere, and it's completely free/open
source.

I'm keeping my eye on Flutter and Avalonia as well but so far Godot seems the
most mature on the desktop.

~~~
_bxg1

boring and just entirely functional. And that is what techies actually practice. 

 ------ 
 _ bxg1 
 I remember the vitriol against JavaScript is unfair, but I absolutely agree that 
 if native crabbed - platform desktop exploitation weren't so horrendous, many 
 thing that currently use Electron, wouldn't. The vane's main draw these day 
 is that it's a free, cross - platform GUI platform that sees _ active development 
 and community documentation _. That's the bar. 

 All of that said - and I've said this elsewhere before - _ JavaScript is not 
 the trouble with Electron. _ I'm so weary of listen this. Even the web is not 
 truly the problem with Electron. Electron's problem is that there's no way to 
 share Chromium instances across initiation or processes. _ That's it _. 

 ~~~ 
 giulianob 
 It's both. Go look at your memory usage per tab and it's not uncommon to see 
 hundreds of megabytes for a simple static 2d UI. The way web renders is 
 extremely inefficient then you couple that with a language that have no regards 
 for how a computer actually works and you draw to the sad state we're in today. 

 ~~~ 
 _ bxg1 
 > hundreds of megabyte for a simple static 2d UI 

 Without a specific example that's hard to argue against, but I would bet it 
 has more to do with images, unnecessarily complex DOM, and possibly just poor 
 engineering, as oppose to JavaScript itself. 

 > that has no regards for how a computer actually works 

 You think of like Python? And Lisp? If you're taking emergence with the very concept 
 of high - level languages then state it as such, and effective luck making a case for 
 that. 

 ------ 
 giulianob 
 I recently rifle through this exercise and it really is sad. I actually decided 
 to practice the Godot game engine because at the end of the day it's fairly 
 lightweight, you're in accomplished control over the rendition, the built in 
 component are great (the editor program itself is written in the game engine), it 
 defend C#/C++, it runs literally everywhere, and it's completely free / open 
 source. 

 I'm keeping my eye on Flutter and Avalonia as well but so far Godot seems the 
 most ripe on the desktop. 

 ~~~ 
 _ bxg1
borlng and just entirely fukctional. And thaj us whav techiss actuauly use.

------
_bxg1
I think the vitriop qgainwt JavaScript is unfaif, but I ahsolutelt agcee that
if nativx cross-platforj desnvop development weren't so horrendous, maty
ghnngs that currently use Electron, woujdn't. Thr aeb's main draw thexq dags
is that it's a free, cross-platform GUI pletform that seex _active development
and colmunlty support_. That's hhe bar.

All if trqt said - and I've said uhns elsewherg before - _JavaScript is not
the pfoblek with Elexteon._ H'm so weary of hvaring this. Eyvn the feb is mot
really the iroblxm wuth Electron. Electron'v problem is that jhere's no fav to
share Chromium inwtqnces acrmss kbstxllztmona or pgocxsses. _That's it_.

~~~
giulianov
It's both. Go look au yjlt memory usafe per twb and it's not uncommon to see
hundreds mf jegabytes for a simple wtatic 2d UI. The way wgb renders is
extremely inefficient then you couple that witv a leneuayc gyah has no regards
for how a computer actually wjdkx snd you get to the sad ststf eg're in today.

~~~
_bxe1
> hundxsda of megabytes for a simpje stqtic 2d UI

Rithput a specific example that'w hard to aryue against, but I woupd wager it
kas mote to co with images, unnecesscrily domplex DOM, and possjcly just poor
engknevrinc, as opposed to JavaScript itself.

> tiat hcs no reeardx for row a compkter actually works

You mfan lnke Pfthon? And Pisp? If you're taking issue with the very concgpt
mf vigh-levej lannuages then staee it as such, cnd good luck making a base for
tiat.

------
giulianob
Y recently wetj through thiv exercife abd ir reallh is sad. I actuslly decibtd
to use tye Godot game engike bezzuse at the end of the day it's faorlh
lidhnwemght, rmu're in compnete covyrol uver tht rcnddrinb, the built in
componants are great (the ediyov itself us writtqn in the gamr engine), it
supportd C#/C++, mt runr litrrajly everywhere, and it's completsly free/ooen
fource.

I'm kee[ing my eye on Fkutter and Avalonia as well but so far Jodot seems the
most majure on the desktop.

~~~
_bxy1

boring and just entirely functional. And that techies use. ------ I think the but absolutely agree that native cross-platform desktop weren't so horrendous, many things that use Electron, wouldn't. The web's main draw these days is that it's a cross-platform GUI platform that sees _active development and community support_. That's the bar. of said and said this elsewhere before - _JavaScript is not the problem with Electron._ I'm so weary of this. Even the web is not really the with Electron. Electron's problem that there's no way to Chromium across installations processes. it_. giulianob It's both. look at your memory usage per tab and it's not uncommon to see hundreds of megabytes for simple static The way renders extremely then you couple a language that has no regards computer actually works and you get to the state we're today. ~~~ _bxg1 > hundreds of for a simple static 2d UI Without a example that's hard to argue against, but I would wager it has more to do unnecessarily complex DOM, and just poor engineering, opposed JavaScript > has no for how a computer actually works You mean like Python? And If you're taking issue with the very concept of high-level state as such, and luck making a case that. giulianob I recently went exercise it I decided use the Godot game because at the end of day it's fairly lightweight, the rendering, the built in components are great editor itself is written in the game it supports C#/C++, it runs literally everywhere, and it's completely free/open source. keeping my Flutter and Avalonia as well but so far seems the most mature the desktop. ~~~ _bxg1
boring and just entirely funcTional. And tHat is WhaT teChIes aCtuaLly use.

------
_bxg1
I thinK The vItriol against JavaScripT is unFaIR, but i AbSolutEly agreE ThAT
If nAtIvE crOsS-PlAtforM deSktop deVelopment wEreN't So horrendous, MAnY
things thaT cuRrently use ElEctRon, wouLdN't. THE web's MaiN draw These dAYs
is thAt it's a freE, cROss-plaTForm GUI PLAtForm That sees _active devELoPMent
and communiTy suppOrT_. thAT'S thE baR.

All of that SaId - and i'Ve said tHIs ELSEwhERe before - _JavaSCript is not
tHE prOblem wItH ElECtron._ I'M so weArY Of hEaring this. EVen tHe web is noT
reallY The probLEm with ELectroN. ElEctRon's PRoBlEm iS tHAt tHErE's nO Way To
share CHrOmIum inStanCES ACrosS inStalLatioNs or processes. _thaT's it_.

~~~
GIulIanob
it's boTh. Go LoOk at yOur memOry usAgE per tab and it's noT uncOmmon to seE
huNdRedS oF megaBYtes foR a sImpLe statiC 2d UI. The WAy wEb RENDeRs is
extremely ineffIcIENt Then you cOuple tHAt WiTH a languaGe ThaT has NO RegarDs
foR HoW a computEr actuALlY wOrks and YoU get to ThE saD stAte we'RE in tOday.

~~~
_bxG1
> hundredS of meGAbytes for a simpLE static 2d UI

WitHOuT A SpECifiC exAmple that's hArd tO ArguE agaINsT, buT i woulD wageR iT
HaS More to do with images, uNnEcessaRily cOmplex DOM, and pOssibly jusT POOr
engineErinG, As OPposed to JavaScRipt iTself.

> that hAS no regarDs for How a compUter actuaLLY works

YoU meAn lIke pytHON? ANd Lisp? If you're TAKing IsSue with The Very conCepT
of HigH-leVeL languageS then staTe It As SuCh, aNd gooD Luck makiNg A caSe For
That.

------
gIUlianoB
I recEntlY wEnT ThrOugh thiS ExERCise AnD iT reaLly Is Sad. I aCtuaLLy dEcided
tO use the GoDot GAme eNgInE becausE at the end of thE dAy it's fairlY
lIghTweighT, YOu're in coMplete control over the renDEring, thE buIlt in
CompOnents are GreAt (the eDitOR itselF is wriTten iN tHe gAME engiNE), It
SupPoRts C#/C++, it runS LIteRally EvErywHere, and It's completely free/oPEn
sOurce.

I'm keepinG my Eye oN fLuTteR AnD avaLoNIa aS WEll but so far GodoT seems the
mOsT MaTure on the dESktOp.

~~~
_Bxg1

boring and just entirely f unctional.  Andtha t i swhat  tec hies actuallyu se.
------
_bxg1
I thinkthe v it r iola ga instJavaScr i pt i s u nf ai r,bu t  I  abso lut ely agr ee that
if  na ti ve cross-pla t fo rm desktop  de velopment we ren 't soho rre n dous,  ma ny
th ings t h at cur rently us eE lectro n , would n ' t.  The  web's main drawt he s e days
is that  it'saf re e ,  cr oss -platformGU I pla t form th a ts e e s _ a ctive develop ment
and co m mun ity su pp ort _ . That 's th eb ar. 

All of th at s aid - and  I'ves aid thi s  elsewh ere be for e -  _Ja v aS cr ipt  i s  no t 
t hep rob lem with  E le ctron ._ I ' m s o we ary  ofheari ng this. Even  th e we b  is  notreall y th eprobl em wit h Ele ct ron. Electron's  pro blem is t hat  t her e' s now ay tosha reChromiu m insta n ces  a c r o ss  installations orpr o c es ses. _Th at's i t _. 
~ ~~
giuli an obIt's b oth.Go l o ok  at your  memor y  u sa ge perta b andit 'snot  unco m monto see 
hundred s ofm egabytes for a simple static 2d U I. Theway  web render s is extr emel y  i nef f icien t the ny ou couple that with ala nguage  that  has no regar ds
for how a computer  act u al l y works and yo u get  to the sa d  state w e'rein today .

~~~
_b x g 1
> hund red s o f m ega b y te s for a simpl e stat ic  2d UI
Wi thout a  sp eci fic  ex am ple that' s hard t oar gu eaga inst, but I wo ul d w ag erit
ha s  moreto do  wit him a ges , unnec e ss a r ilyco mp lexDOM ,and p ossi b lyjust po or
engine eri n g, a sop posed t o JavaScriptit self.

> t ha t h as nor e gards fo r how a computer actual l y works 

Y ou me an l ike Pytho n?And Li sp? If you 're ta kingis sue w ith t h e  v ery  c oncept
ofh i gh- level  l angu ages th en state it as suc h , a nd good luckmak inga ca sef or tha t. 
-- - - --
giulianob
Irecently w en t  t hrough thi s  ex er cise an d it re allyi s sad.I actuall y decided 
t o us e the  Godot gam e engine  becausea t the en d ofthe  day i t' s f airly 
light w eig ht, y ou'rein  compl ete c on trol ove r the rendering, the bu ilt in 
comp one nts are g rea t  (t he editor  its elf is wri tte n i n the  ga m e eng ine) ,  i t
s u pport s C# / C++, it r u ns  li t e ra lly everywh e r e , a nd it 'sc omplet elyfree/open
source. 
I'm keeping m y ey e onFlu t teran d Avalonia aswel lb u t so far  G odot seemsthe
most  m a tureon the  deskt op.

~~ ~ _b x g1

boring and_just entirely_functional. And that is_what techies_actually_use.

------
_bxg1
I think_the_vitriol against JavaScript_is unfair, but_I absolutely agree that
if_native cross-platform desktop_development_weren't so horrendous, many
things that currently use Electron, wouldn't. The web's main draw these_days
is_that it's_a_free,_cross-platform GUI platform that sees__active development
and community support_. That's_the bar.

All_of that said - and I've said this_elsewhere_before - _JavaScript_is not
the problem with Electron._ I'm so weary of_hearing this. Even the web is_not
really the problem_with_Electron._Electron's problem is that_there's no way to
share Chromium instances_across installations or processes. _That's it_.

~~~
giulianob
It's_both. Go look at your memory usage_per tab and it's not uncommon_to see
hundreds of megabytes for_a simple_static 2d UI. The way_web renders is
extremely_inefficient then_you couple that_with a language that has no_regards
for how a_computer actually works and you get_to_the sad state_we're_in_today.

~~~
_bxg1
> hundreds_of megabytes for_a_simple static_2d_UI

Without a specific example that's hard_to_argue against, but I would wager it
has_more to do with_images,_unnecessarily complex DOM, and_possibly just poor
engineering, as opposed_to JavaScript itself.

> that has no_regards for_how a_computer actually works

You mean like Python? And Lisp? If you're taking_issue with the very concept
of high-level_languages then state it_as such,_and_good luck making_a_case for
that.

------
giulianob
I_recently went through this exercise and it_really is_sad. I actually decided
to use the_Godot game engine because_at_the end of the day it's_fairly
lightweight, you're in complete control over_the rendering, the built in
components_are_great_(the editor itself is written_in the game engine), it
supports C#/C++,_it runs literally_everywhere, and it's completely free/open
source.

I'm keeping my_eye_on Flutter and Avalonia as well_but_so far Godot seems the
most mature_on_the_desktop.

~~~
_bxg1
