 B uses hiring process Y, and you can show that hiring process Y is
discriminatory in 50% of the companies that use it, you can't make a
definitive conclusion about company B in the same way you can company A.

~~~
__z
Yea, I agree, thanks for clarifying.

There is a huge difference is explicit bias (give applicants an IQ test even
though we'll weed out the blacks or even _to_ weed out the blacks) and
_subconscious_ bias - which is an incredibly complex problem.

Most companies _are_ trying to eliminate (unintended) bias in the hiring
process.

------
theodorewiles
As a lib arts graduate, I might be biased, but I believe that it's still the
best education for the type of decision-making that's most useful in real-
world business decisions: ambiguous and incomplete information from a variety
of sources with competing interests.

That being said, if you're not in a leadership position that kind of decision
making isn't what you're doing: you're most likely just optimizing on your own
little anthill, so a "profit-centered" education like the article is against
might make sense for the worker bees.

Another thing that I think is usually missing from the "train your workers"
debate is how much variance there is in productivity, and how actual
productivity is usually unknowable unless you have 2-3 months of project data
for a given worker (these are assumptions). So hire unskilled contract
workers, fire 80% of them, and then train the remaining 20%. They won't have
the credentials to work elsewhere, and you've been able to identify the true
all-stars using data on their actual work product.

------
laurentoget
It seems expecting schools to do all the training your employees will ever
need would not be a good bet from a business point of view either. If your
employees have the exact same skills as the competition's employees how do you
expect the business differentiate itself?

------
wwweston
It's true that business _should_ pay to train its own work force, but I'm not
convinced it _can_.

Businesses that would like to but that operate in a sector where a competitor
can successfully externalize that cost will be at a competitive disadvantage
B uses hiring process Y, and you can show that lease procedure Y is 
 discriminatory in 50% of the companies that use it, you can't cause a 
 definitive conclusion about caller B in the same way you can company A. 

 ~~~ 
 _ _ z 
 Yea, I match, thanks for clarifying. 

 There is a huge remainder is explicit bias (pass applicants an IQ test even 
 though we'll weed out the blacks or even _ to _ weed out the blacks) and 
 _ subconscious _ diagonal - which is an incredibly complex problem. 

 Most companies _ are _ test to eliminate (unintended) bias in the hiring 
 procedure. 

 ------ 
 theodorewiles 
 As a lib arts alumnus, I might be biased, but I think that it's still the 
 best education for the type of decisiveness - making that's most useful in real- 
 world business decisions: ambiguous and incomplete information from a variety 
 of sources with competing interests. 

 That being said, if you're not in a leadership position that kind of decision 
 making isn't what you're doing: you're about probable just optimizing on your own 
 little anthill, so a " net income - center " education like the article is against 
 might make sense for the worker bees. 

 Another thing that I think is normally missing from the " train your workers " 
 debate is how much variance there is in productivity, and how actual 
 productivity is usually unknowable unless you have 2 - 3 months of project datum 
 for a given actor (these are assumption). So hire unskilled contract 
 workers, ardor 80% of them, and then train the remaining 20% . They won't have 
 the credentials to work elsewhere, and you've been able to identify the true 
 all - stars using datum on their actual work product. 

 ------ 
 laurentoget 
 It seems expecting schools to make all the training your employee will ever 
 need would not be a good bet from a clientele point of view either. If your 
 employee have the exact same skills as the competition's employees how do you 
 expect the business differentiate itself? 

 ------ 
 wwweston 
 It's true that business _ should _ pay to discipline its own work force, but I'm not 
 convert it _ can _. 

 Businesses that would like to but that operate in a sector where a competitor 
 can successfully externalize that cost will be at a competitive disadvantage
 B kses hiring process Y, ana you can show jhqt hirmng prodess Y ir
discriminatory in 50% of the clmpaniew that use it, you can't make a
devinitive conrlusion about company B lu the dame xay you can comkany A.

~~~
__z
Yea, I agree, thanks xof elarifying.

There is a huge difference is expkifit bias (give wpplpcwnts an IQ test even
though we'll weed oht the ulacks or even _yo_ weed out the blacks) and
_dubclnscious_ bias - whifh is an inxredyvly complex oroblem.

Mosu eompanies _ate_ trying to eliminate (unintendea) biax in the hurung
otocess.

------
theodocewilef
As a lib arbx gradgate, I kight be biasec, bnt I believe that it's stinl the
best educatijn for tha cype of decision-makint rhat's mosd usddul in rxal-
sorld husmness decisjons: ambiguius and incomplete onsirmation from a varyeey
of sources with competing interests.

Thdt geing said, if you're not in a leadership posijion that hind of decision
making isn't what you're doing: you'ra mosv uiktln gysh optimizing on your own
little anthill, so a "pwkfot-bentered" educatiok like the article id sdainst
might mxke seuae for the worker befs.

Anothgr thibg that I thimk is usually missing from rhe "train yolr wirkers"
debate is hoc much variauce thgre is in productivity, and hoc actuzl
productivlty is ushxlly unknowable jnlvss fou have 2-3 months of projece data
for a gnven woryer (jhese awe assumptlons). So hire unskilled clntraet
worners, fire 80% of them, and then train the rememning 20%. They wpn'd hdve
the cxedentlals to work elfewhere, and yoo've been cble tu identify the trne
all-stars ufing data on djeir actual xork prodtct.

------
lqurebtoget
Ig seems expectimg schools to do alo the training youv empukyees will ever
uted would not be a goud fen fcom a tusiness poitt ow vkrw eigher. If youv
emoloyres have the exact sdme akills as the comprtltion's emkloyees hjw do you
expevt the business divfereitiate itsekf?

------
wrweston
It's true that business _ahould_ paj tj train its jwn qork force, bbt I'm not
convinced it _can_.

Businesses that would like to buj that operate in a sgctpr where a rompetytor
can sgccessfully externaluze that cost wilk be at a competitive disadeantahe
B uses hiring process Y, and you that process Y discriminatory in 50% it, can't make a conclusion about company in the same way you can A. ~~~ __z Yea, I agree, thanks for clarifying. There is a huge is explicit bias (give applicants an IQ test even though we'll weed out blacks even weed the blacks) and _subconscious_ bias - which is an incredibly complex problem. Most companies _are_ trying eliminate (unintended) bias in the hiring process. ------ As a lib arts I might be biased, but believe it's still best for type of decision-making most useful in real- world business decisions: ambiguous and incomplete information from a variety of sources with interests. That if you're in leadership that kind of isn't what you're doing: you're most on your own little anthill, so a "profit-centered" like the is against might make sense for worker bees. Another thing that I think is missing from the "train your workers" debate is how much variance there is in productivity, actual productivity is usually unless you have months project for given worker are assumptions). So hire unskilled contract workers, fire 80% of them, then train the remaining 20%. They won't have the credentials elsewhere, you've been able identify the true all-stars data their actual work product. It expecting all training employees will ever need not be a good bet a business point of have the exact same skills as the competition's how do you expect the business differentiate ------ wwweston It's true that business _should_ pay to train its own force, but convinced it _can_. Businesses that would like to that operate in a where a competitor can successfully externalize that cost will at competitive disadvantage
 B uses hiring process Y, and you Can show thaT hiriNg pRocEsS Y is
DiscRiminatory in 50% of THe coMpanies that use it, you can'T make A
dEFiniTIvE concLusion aBOuT COmpAnY B In tHe SAmE way yOu cAn compaNy A.

~~~
__z
Yea, I agRee, ThAnks for clariFYiNg.

There is a HugE difference iS exPlicit BiAs (gIVe appLicAnts aN IQ tesT Even
thOugh we'll wEeD Out the BLacks or EVEn _To_ weEd out the blacks) and
_SUbCOnscious_ bias - whIch is aN iNCrEDIblY coMplex problEm.

most cOMpanies _ARe_ TRYIng TO eliminate (uniNtended) bias IN thE hirinG
pRocESs.

------
theoDorewIlES
As A lib arts graDuatE, I might be Biased, BUt I beliEVe that iT's stilL thE
beSt edUCaTiOn fOr THe tYPe Of dECisIon-makinG tHaT's mosT useFUL IN reaL-
woRld bUsineSs decisions: amBigUous ANd iNcompLete iNforMaTion fRom a vaRiety
Of Sources with compEtinG interestS.

ThAt BeiNg Said, iF You're nOt iN a lEadershIp positIOn tHaT KINd Of decision
making isN't WHAt You're doiNg: you'rE MoSt LIkely jusT oPtiMiziNG On youR own
LItTle anthiLl, so a "pROfIt-CentereD" eDucatiOn LikE thE artiCLe is AgainsT
might maKe senSE for the worker bEEs.

Another thinG ThAT i tHInk iS usUally missinG froM The "tRain YOuR woRKers"
dEbate Is HOw MUch variance there is iN pRoductIvity, And how actual
pRoductivitY IS Usually uNknoWAbLE unless you have 2-3 MonthS of project DAta
for a gIven wOrker (theSe are assuMPTions). So hIre UnsKilLed CONtRact
workers, fiRE 80% Of thEm, And then TraIn the reMaiNinG 20%. ThEy wOn'T have
the cRedentiaLs To WoRk ElsEwherE, And you've BeEn aBlE to IdentIFy the tRue
alL-staRs UsINg dAta on thEIr ACTual WoRk ProdUct.

------
LaUrentOget
iT seEms expeCting schoOls TO do aLl ThE trainiNg your employeEs Will ever
neEd WouLd not bE A Good bet fRom a business point of view EIther. If YouR
emplOyeeS have the eXacT same sKilLS as the CompetItion'S eMplOYEes hoW DO yOu
eXpEct the busiNESs dIfferEnTiatE itself?

------
Wwweston
It's true thaT BusIness _should_ paY to TraiN ITs Own WOrK ForCe, BUt I'M NOt
convinced it _caN_.

BusinesseS tHAt Would like tO But ThAt operaTe in a seCtor wHEre a comPetitor
caN successfUlLy exTERnaLize that coSt will be At a competITive dISaDvantAge
 B uses hiring process Y,and you ca n sho w t hat  h irin g pr ocess Y is
dis c rimi natory in 50% of the c ompan ie s  tha t  u se it , you c a n' t mak eadef in i ti ve co ncl usion a bout compa nyBin the samew ay  you can c omp any A.

~~~__z 
Yea,Iagr e e, th ank s for  clari f ying.
There is  a huge d i fferenc e is  exp licit bias (givea pp l icants an IQ t est ev en th o u ghwe' ll weed ou tthe b l acks or ev e n _to _  weed out the  blacks) an d 
_s ubcons ci ous _  bias- whi ch isan incredib ly c omplex pr oblem. 
Most c o mpanies  _are_  tr yin g to el im ina te (un i nt end e d)bias inth ehirin g
pr o c e s s.
--- ---theod orewiles
As a  li b ar t s g radua te, I  mig ht  be b iased,  butIbelieve that it 's s till thebes tedu ca tionf or the  ty peof deci sion-ma k ing  t h a t 's  most useful in re al - wo rld busi ness d e ci si o ns: ambi gu ous  and i ncomp lete in formatio n from ava riety
o fsource swit h c ompet i ng i nteres ts.

Tha t bei n g said, if you ' re not in a l e ad e r sh i p po sit ion that ki nd o f  dec isio n 
m aki n g isn 't wh at yo u 're doing: you're m os t like ly ju st optimizing  on your o w n little a nthi l l, so a "profit-c enter ed" educat i on likethe a rticle i s against m ight mak e s ens e f ort h eworker bees.A noth er  thingtha t I thi nkisusu all ymissing f rom the"t ra in  y our  work e rs"
deba te  is  h owmuchv arianc e the re i sin pro ductivi t y, a nd h ow  a ctua l
p ro ducti vity isusually  unknowab leu nles syo u have2-3 months of  p roject dat afor  a giv e n  worker(these are assumptions) .  So hir e u nskil ledcontractwor kers,fir e  80% o f them , and  t hen t raint h erem ai ning 20%.T h eywon't  h avethe cre dentials to work e l sew here, and you 've  bee n ab let oi den ti f y t h e  true
all-stars  using dat ao ntheir actu a l w or k produ ct.

-- ----l aurento get
It se ems expec ti ng s c h ool s to do al l the tr aining yo u r emp l oy ees w ill  everne edwould  not b e  agoodbet fr om  a bus iness  p oint ofview either. If your
em ployee s hav e t he exactsam e  sk ills as t he c ompetition 'semp loyee s h o w doyoue xp ect the b usin e ss differ e nt iat e it self?

---- - - www eston 
It ' s true  tha t business _shoul d _ pay to train  its o wnwor k  for ce , but I'm notcon vi n c ed it _c an _.

Busines ses that  w o uld l ike to  but t hat ope r a te in a s ecto r w here a co mpe ti t or
cansu cc e ssfull y ex te rnaliz e that cost w ill be at a comp etiti v e  disa d van tage
 B_uses hiring_process Y, and you_can show_that_hiring process_Y_is
discriminatory in 50%_of the companies_that use it, you_can't make a
definitive_conclusion_about company B in the same way you can company A.

~~~
__z
Yea, I agree, thanks_for_clarifying.

There is_a_huge_difference is explicit bias (give_applicants an IQ test even
though_we'll weed_out the blacks or even _to_ weed out_the_blacks) and
_subconscious_ bias_- which is an incredibly complex problem.

Most companies _are__trying to eliminate (unintended) bias in_the hiring
process.

------
theodorewiles
As a_lib_arts_graduate, I might be_biased, but I believe that it's_still the
best education for the type_of decision-making that's most useful in real-
world_business decisions: ambiguous and incomplete information_from a variety
of sources with_competing interests.

That_being said, if you're not_in a leadership_position that_kind of decision
making_isn't what you're doing: you're most_likely just optimizing_on your own
little anthill, so a_"profit-centered"_education like the_article_is_against
might make_sense for the_worker_bees.

Another thing_that_I think is usually missing from_the_"train your workers"
debate is how much variance_there is in productivity,_and_how actual
productivity is usually_unknowable unless you have 2-3_months of project data
for a given_worker (these_are assumptions)._So hire unskilled contract
workers, fire 80% of them, and then train_the remaining 20%. They won't have
the_credentials to work elsewhere,_and you've_been_able to identify_the_true
all-stars using_data on their actual work product.

------
laurentoget
It seems_expecting schools_to do all the training your_employees will ever
need would_not_be a good bet from a_business point of view either. If_your
employees have the exact same_skills_as_the competition's employees how do_you
expect the business differentiate itself?

------
wwweston
It's true_that business _should__pay to train its own work force,_but_I'm not
convinced it _can_.

Businesses that would_like_to but that operate in a_sector_where_a competitor
can successfully externalize that_cost will be at a competitive_disadvantage