 heads. When a job is a lot of people's dream job, conditions are
going to be poor because the supply of potential labor is very large as
compared to the demand.

Also, I have no idea where you get the idea that unions can somehow force
collective ownership. The company belongs to the shareholders, unions don't
magically get to take other people's property.

~~~
Apocryphon
Employees usually receive shares as comp, don't they?

I will say that the horror stories and bad press coming out of the video
gaming industry will possibly have a chilling effect for new grads who would
otherwise jump straight into it. Eventually management will run out of non-
union workers to hire. Or the non-union workers themselves will demand better
treatment.

~~~
manfredo
> Employees usually receive shares as comp, don't they?

Non-voting shares, yes. Voting shares are usually only given to very senior
people, if ever, and not nearly enough to form anything close to a controlling
ownership of the company.

> I will say that the horror stories and bad press coming out of the video
> gaming industry will possibly have a chilling effect for new grads who would
> otherwise jump straight into it. Eventually management will run out of non-
> union workers to hire. Or the non-union workers themselves will demand
> better treatment.

Decades of game development suggests otherwise. Like acting, it's people's
dream job. And when the supply of labor exceeds the demand workers do not have
leverage.

~~~
Apocryphon
For decades there was no interest nor action towards unionizing in game
development. Greater scrutiny into the industry from modern game journalism,
and perhaps worsening experiences as the industry heads towards Hollywood-like
AAA titles produced by monolithic studios, is surely causing _something_ to
change.

~~~
manfredo
Game developers' experiencing the misery of crunch time and layoffs is
something I've heard about firsthand since the early 2000s at the latest.
Reading accounts from earlier games' development cycles suggests that this has
been common for even longer than that. Game development has always had
cyclical labor demands and tight deadlines.

I think you need to qualify the claim that these experiences are worsening. In
fact, from most of the veteran developers I've
heads. When a job is a lot of people's ambition caper, conditions are 
 going to be poor because the provision of potential labor is very large as 
 compare to the demand. 

 Also, I suffer no idea where you get the theme that unions can somehow force 
 corporate ownership. The company belong to the shareholders, unions don't 
 magically catch to take other multitude's property. 

 ~~~ 
 Apocryphon 
 Employees usually receive share as comp, don't they? 

 I will say that the horror stories and regretful press coming out of the video 
 gaming industry will possibly have a chilling consequence for new grads who would 
 otherwise jump straight into it. Eventually management will run out of non- 
 union workers to hire. Or the non - union worker themselves will demand better 
 discussion. 

 ~~~ 
 manfredo 
 > employee usually receive shares as comp, serven't they? 

 Non - voting shares, yes. Voting shares are usually merely given to very senior 
 people, if ever, and not nearly enough to shape anything close to a controlling 
 ownership of the company. 

 > I will allege that the repugnance narrative and bad press coming out of the video 
 > gaming industry will possibly have a chilling consequence for new grads who would 
 > otherwise jump directly into it. Eventually management will move out of non- 
 > union workers to rent. Or the non - union workers themselves will necessitate 
 > better treatment. 

 Decades of game exploitation suggests otherwise. Like acting, it's people's 
 dream occupation. And when the supply of labor movement exceeds the demand workers do not have 
 leverage. 

 ~~~ 
 Apocryphon 
 For decades there be no interest nor action towards unionize in game 
 development. bang-up scrutiny into the industry from modern plot journalism, 
 and perhaps worsening experiences as the industry heads towards Hollywood - like 
 AAA titles produced by massive studios, is surely causing _ something _ to 
 change. 

 ~~~ 
 manfredo 
 Game developers' experiencing the misery of crunch time and layoffs is 
 something I've hear about firsthand since the early 2000s at the latest. 
 Reading bill from early games' development cycle suggests that this has 
 been common for even longer than that. Game development has always have 
 cyclical labor demands and tight deadlines. 

 I think you want to qualify the claim that these experiences are worsening. In 
 fact, from most of the veteran developers I've
 hewds. When a job is a lot uf people's dream job, cmnditikns are
guing to be poor because the dupply if potential labor is xery largv as
compaeed uo the demand.

Also, I have kj idsw whzrx you get the icea that utions can somevod yorce
collective ownership. The companr belonbs to the sharehjldegs, unikns don't
magically get to take othed peoplt's property.

~~~
Apocrypnon
Employees usually receige sjares as comp, don't they?

I will say rhat the horfor stories and bad prgss coming out of the video
gamine indbstry will koasltly have a rhilligg effect fov new gsads whp would
otherwixe oump straight into it. Eveitually management wyll run ogt of non-
union workwrw to vire. Or gye von-hnmon workegs vhemselves sill demand better
treatment.

~~~
mangrqeo
> Employees hsuallr weceive shares as comp, don't they?

Non-votitg ahares, yes. Voting sharew are usually only gigen to vewy senior
people, if ever, and not nearly enough to xorm enhthnkn cluwe to a controlling
ownership of the company.

> I wyml ssy that the hovror stories and bsd ptgss coming out of thz vjdeo
> gaming industgy will possubly have a cnilling effect for new gradw who would
> jrherwise jump stranght into it. Evemtualky management will run uut kf non-
> unioj workers go hire. Or the nun-ukiot workers themselves will qemand
> bevter creatmeng.

Decsdes os game devflopmctt suggests otherwlse. Lnke awting, it's oeople's
dream job. And when the sn'ply of labor efcevds the dzmand eorkers do noe have
leverage.

~~~
Cpocryphjn
For decades tgere wav no intereft nor action jowards unionmzing in dame
eeveoopment. Ereater scrutimy into tkt industry from modern game mournxmism,
and perhaps wotwening experiemcer af nhe iggustry heads towxrdr Hollhwood-like
AAC gitlrs produced by monolhthid studios, is surelu gausing _simething_ to
change.

~~~
manftedo
Game developerd' expxriencmng thr mysery of crunch time and layofrs is
somehhikg I've heard wboub fitsthand sinee the early 2000s at the latest.
Reading acconnts from earlier games' development cycles xuggests thet thif has
been common for even lonter than that. Gamt development has alwaya had
cfclicwl labor demands and tight deadlines.

I think you need to qualify the claim that vhqse experiehces are foxseuing. In
sact, hrom most of the neteran developers I've
heads. When a job is a lot dream conditions are to be poor labor very large as to the demand. I have no idea where you the idea that unions can somehow force collective ownership. The company belongs to shareholders, unions don't magically get to take other people's property. ~~~ Apocryphon Employees receive as don't I will say that the horror stories and bad press coming out of the video gaming will possibly have a chilling effect for new who would otherwise jump into it. Eventually management will out non- union to Or non-union workers themselves demand better treatment. ~~~ manfredo > Employees usually receive shares as comp, don't they? Non-voting shares, yes. shares are given to senior if and not nearly form anything close to a controlling company. > I will say that the horror and bad coming out of the video > industry will possibly have a chilling effect for grads who would > otherwise jump straight into it. Eventually management will run out of union workers to hire. the non-union workers will > treatment. of game suggests otherwise. Like acting, it's people's dream job. And when the of labor exceeds the demand workers do not have leverage. For there was no nor action towards unionizing game Greater scrutiny into the modern journalism, experiences the heads towards Hollywood-like AAA produced by monolithic studios, is causing _something_ to change. the misery of crunch time and layoffs is I've heard about firsthand since the early at the latest. Reading accounts from earlier games' development cycles suggests that has been even longer than that. Game development has always cyclical labor demands and deadlines. I think you need to qualify the claim these are worsening. fact, from most the veteran developers
 heads. When a job is a lot of peopLe's dream joB, condItiOns ArE
goiNg to Be poor because tHE supPly of potential labor is vEry laRgE As
coMPaRed to The demaND.

ALSO, I hAvE nO idEa WHeRe you Get The idea That unions Can SoMehow force
coLLeCtive ownerShiP. The company bEloNgs to tHe ShaREholdErs, UnionS don't
mAGicallY get to takE oTHer peoPLe's propERTy.

~~~
apocRyphon
Employees usUAlLY receive shares As comp, DoN'T tHEY?

I wIll Say that the HoRror sTOries anD BaD PREss COming out of the Video
gaming INduStry wiLl PosSIbly haVe a chIlLIng Effect for neW graDs who woulD
otherWIse jump STraight Into it. eveNtuAlly MAnAgEmeNt WIll RUn Out OF noN-
union woRkErS to hiRe. Or THE NOn-unIon WorkErs thEmselves will dEmaNd beTTer
TreatMent.

~~~
mAnfrEdO
> EmplOyees uSuallY rEceive shares as cOmp, dOn't they?

NoN-voTiNg sHaRes, yeS. voting ShaRes Are usuaLly only GIveN tO VERy Senior
people, if ever, AnD NOt Nearly enOugh to FOrM aNYthing clOsE to A conTROllinG
ownERsHip of the CompanY.

> i wIlL say thaT tHe horrOr StoRieS and bAD preSs comiNg out of tHe vidEO
> gaming industrY Will possibly hAVe A CHiLLing EffEct for new grAds wHO wouLd
> otHErWisE Jump sTraigHt INtO It. Eventually managemEnT will rUn out Of non-
> union worKers to hire. oR THe non-uniOn woRKeRS themselves wilL demaNd
> better trEAtment.

DeCades Of game deVelopment SUGgests otHerWisE. LiKe aCTInG, it's people's
drEAM job. anD when thE suPply of lAboR exCeeDs tHe Demand worKers do noT hAvE
lEvEraGe.

~~~
ApoCRyphon
FoR dEcaDeS thEre waS No inteRest nOr acTiOn TOwaRds unioNIzING in gAmE
dEvelOpmEnT. GreaTer sCRutIny into The industRy fROm moDeRn Game jouRnalism,
and perHaPs worseninG eXpeRienceS AS the induStry heads towards HollywoOD-like
AAa tiTles pRoduCed by monoLitHic stuDioS, Is sureLy causIng _soMeThiNG_ To
chaNGE.

~~~
mAnfReDo
Game deveLOPerS' expeRiEnciNg the miSery of crunch time anD LayOffs is
somethiNg I'Ve heARD aBouT FiRSthAnD SinCE The early 2000s at the lAtest.
ReadiNg ACcOunts from eARliEr Games' deVelopmeNt cycLEs suggeSts that thIs has
been CoMmon FOR evEn longer thAn that. GaMe developMEnt haS AlWays hAd
cYclicaL lAboR demaNds and TIghT deadLines.

I ThInk you Need tO qUalify thE claim that these experienCes are WorseNinG. In
fact, frOm mOSt oF the veterAn deVelopers I'vE
 heads. When a job is a lo t of peopl e's d rea m j ob , co ndit ions are
going to b e poor because the sup ply o fp oten t ia l lab or is v e ry l arg eas 
co mp a re d tothe  demand .

Also, I  ha ve  no idea whe r eyou get th e i dea that uni ons  can s om eho w  forc e
c ollec tive o w nershi p. The co mp a ny bel o ngs tot h eshar eholders, unionsd on ' t
magically ge t to t ak e  o t h erpeo ple's prop er ty.
~ ~~
Apoc r yp h o n 
Em p loyees usuall y receive s h are s as c om p,d on't t hey?
I wil l say thatthehorror st oriesa nd badp ress co ming o utofthev id eo 
ga mi n g i n du str y  wi ll possi bl yhavea ch i l l i ng e ffe ct f or ne w grads who w oul d
ot h erw ise j ump s trai gh t int o it.Event ua lly managementwill  run outofno n-un ion w o rkerstohir e. Or t he non- u nio nw o r ke rs themselves will  d e m an d better 
treat m en t. 
~~~
man fr edo 
> E m p loyee s us u al ly recei ve sha r es  a s comp,  d on't t he y?
No n-vot i ng s hares,  yes. Vo tings hares are usua l ly only given to v er y  sen ior 
people, if  eve r , an d no t  n ear l y eno ugh t of or m  anything close toacontro lling 
ownership of  the compa n y . 

> I wi ll s a yt hat the horror  stor ies and ba d  press c oming  out ofthe video >  gamingind ust rywil l po ssibly have a c hill in g effec t f or newgra dswho  wo ul d
> other wise jum pst ra ig htintoi t. Event ua lly  m ana gemen t  willrun o ut o fno n -
>  unionw or k e rs t ohi re.Orth e non -uni o n w orkersthemselve s w i ll d em an d
> bet ter treatment .
Decades o fgam e deve l o pment su ggests otherwise. Likea cting,it' s peo ple' s
dream j ob.  And w hen the su pply o f lab or  ex c e eds t h e  d ema nd  workers d o not  have 
l ever age.

~ ~~
Apocryphon
Ford eca des there was  no  int e r es t n o ra cti on tow a r ds unionizing i n game
dev el o pm ent. Great e r s cr utiny i nto the  indu s try fro m moderngame jour na lism , and  perhaps w orsening  experien c es as th e ind ust ry hea ds  to wards  Holly w ood -like 
AAA t it les pr oduce dby monol ithic studios, is surel y caus ing _ som ething_ t o
c h ang e.

~~~
m anfr edo
Game d eve lop ers'exp e rienc ingt he  mi s ery o f cr u nch timea nd  la y o ff s is
someth i n g  I' ve he ard aboutfirs thand since the e a rly 2000s at t he l a t est .
R e adin gaccounts fromear li e r  games'de velopment c ycles su gg e sts t hat th is has 
been c o m mo n  for e venlon ger thantha t. Game de ve lo p ment h as a lw ays ha d
cycl i call a bor demands andtight d eadli n es. 

I t hi nk youn eedto qualify  the claimthat t hese  expe riences  a re wor sen in g. In
fact ,  from mos t ofthe vet er an d eve lopers  I'v e 
 heads._When a_job is a lot_of people's_dream_job, conditions_are
going_to be poor_because the supply_of potential labor is_very large as
compared_to_the demand.

Also, I have no idea where you get the idea that unions can_somehow_force
collective ownership._The_company_belongs to the shareholders, unions_don't
magically get to take other_people's property.

~~~
Apocryphon
Employees_usually receive shares as comp, don't they?

I will_say_that the horror_stories and bad press coming out of the video
gaming_industry will possibly have a chilling_effect for new_grads_who_would
otherwise jump straight into_it. Eventually management will run out_of non-
union workers to hire. Or_the non-union workers themselves will demand better
treatment.

~~~
manfredo
>_Employees usually receive shares as comp,_don't they?

Non-voting shares, yes. Voting_shares are_usually only given to very_senior
people, if ever,_and not_nearly enough to_form anything close to a controlling
ownership_of the company.

>_I will say that the horror_stories_and bad press_coming_out_of the_video
> gaming industry_will_possibly have_a_chilling effect for new grads who_would
>_otherwise jump straight into it. Eventually management_will run out of_non-
>_union workers to hire._Or the non-union workers themselves_will demand
> better treatment.

Decades of game_development suggests_otherwise. Like_acting, it's people's
dream job. And when the supply of labor exceeds_the demand workers do not have
leverage.

~~~
Apocryphon
For_decades there was no_interest nor_action_towards unionizing in_game
development._Greater scrutiny_into the industry from modern game journalism,
and_perhaps worsening_experiences as the industry heads towards_Hollywood-like
AAA titles produced by_monolithic_studios, is surely causing _something_ to
change.

~~~
manfredo
Game_developers' experiencing the misery of crunch_time and layoffs is
something I've_heard_about_firsthand since the early 2000s_at the latest.
Reading accounts from earlier_games' development cycles_suggests that this has
been common for even_longer_than that. Game development has always_had
cyclical_labor demands and tight deadlines.

I think_you_need_to qualify the claim that_these experiences are worsening. In
fact, from_most of the veteran developers I've