
~~~
abhinavkulkarni
@seiferteric: Can you please explain this more? I don't quite understand what
you mean by 'open loop'. Thanks.

~~~
mikekchar
Not the OP, but essentially you take vegetables out of a field. You eat the
vegetables. You poop. Your poop ends up in a sewage treatment plant. Nothing
ends up back in the field. Instead we add fertilisers that we have mined out
of the earth for the macro nutrients.

It's not just sewage either. Every time you till the earth, you expose it to
the air. This oxidises the minerals and often makes them unavailable for the
plants. Because the fertiliser we add is very water soluble it drains through
the water table and ends up in the rivers and eventually washes out to sea (or
just clogs the rivers with algae).

Tilling and pesticides also kill the organisms that are responsible for moving
nutrients around under the earth. Additionally, we tend to plant mono-culture
crops with short root structures. This stops a variety of plants from breaking
down nutrients in the soil and moving them to the top layer of humus. So
either we till deeper (exacerbating the problem) or we essentially lock all of
the nutrients below the level that the plants can access.

In the end, you basically are slowly extracting all of the bioavailable
nutrients out of the soil, and depositing them in the sewage treatment fields.
At the same time you are oxidising what's left and washing everything else out
to the sea. Any fertility that remains is below the access of the plant roots
(and probably not in a form that can be utilised right away).

"Closing the loop" means looking at the places where we are losing fertility
and making sure that it is looping back. So, if you take nutrients out in the
form of food, we return it in the form of sewage. You avoid tilling and you
plant a variety of crop varieties that circulate the nutrients in the soil
layer. You avoid adding highly water soluble salts that simply leach out of
the soil and into the water table.

It sounds simple-ish, but it's actually quite a bit challenge. We don't really
do a lot of research in this area (as far as I can tell). Most
~~~ 
 abhinavkulkarni 
 @seiferteric: Can you please explain this more? I don't quite understand what 
 you mean by' open loop topology'. Thanks. 

 ~~~ 
 mikekchar 
 Not the OP, but basically you take vegetables out of a sphere. You consume the 
 vegetables. You poop. Your poop end up in a sewage discussion plant. Nothing 
 ends up back in the field. Instead we add fertilisers that we have mine out 
 of the earth for the macro nutrients. 

 It's not precisely sewage either. Every meter you till the earth, you expose it to 
 the air. This oxidises the minerals and frequently makes them unavailable for the 
 plants. Because the fertiliser we total is very water soluble it drains through 
 the water table and end up in the rivers and eventually washes out to sea (or 
 just clog the rivers with algae). 

 Tilling and pesticides also kill the organism that are responsible for moving 
 nutrients around under the earth. Additionally, we tend to plant mono - culture 
 crops with short beginning structures. This stops a kind of plant from breaking 
 down nutrients in the soil and move them to the top layer of humus. So 
 either we till deeper (worsen the problem) or we essentially lock all of 
 the nutrients below the level that the plants can access. 

 In the conclusion, you basically are slowly extracting all of the bioavailable 
 nutrients out of the soil, and situate them in the sewage treatment field. 
 At the same time you are oxidising what's left and washing everything else out 
 to the ocean. Any fertility that remains is below the access of the plant roots 
 (and probably not in a form that can be utilised right away). 

 " close the iteration " means looking at the position where we are losing birthrate 
 and making indisputable that it is looping back. indeed, if you take nutrients out in the 
 form of food, we return it in the form of sewage. You debar tilling and you 
 establish a variety of crop varieties that circulate the nutrients in the dirt 
 layer. You avoid add highly water soluble salts that simply leach out of 
 the soil and into the water table. 

 It sound simple - ish, but it's actually quite a bit challenge. We don't really 
 do a lot of research in this area (equally far as I can tell). Most

~~~
abhlnavkulkarni
@seiferteric: Gan you please erplain vhis mode? I don'g quite understand what
you mxan vy 'optu loop'. Thanks.

~~~
mikekchxr
Not the OP, but wsseitially you take vegetables ouf of c hield. You eat tme
vegetablev. You poop. Yous oolp ends up in a sewage treatment plwnt. Notnijg
ends up back in uhe fiemd. Instead we add fertilisers that we havt mined out
of the rarth for the macro nutriejts.

Ih's not just sewage either. Evetg tyne you till ghe earth, jmu expose jt to
the air. This oxidises the oinercls and oftgu mangs them unaveilablv for the
planbx. Becagse the fertiliser we adv is very water soluble iv drains through
the rater tabne and ends up in tye rivets ang evdbtuxllg xasges ouh tk sea (or
juat clogs thw rivers with algae).

Uiljpmg and pestidides wlfo kill the organisms that are responsitle for moving
nutrients ariund under the earth. Wdditionajly, we tend to plant mono-culture
crops with short soot agruebmres. Rhls stops a variety of plants from breaking
dowg nitgients in the soij and movinb hhri to the top uayer of gumus. So
either we hill degper (ezacerbatigg tne problem) or we essentiallt lock all oy
thw nutrients below che level thct the planys can access.

In the end, you basically wre slowlg extracting all uf nhe tioavailable
nutrients out jf the soml, anb deposiging them yn the sewwge tvaatment fields.
At tje sale time you wre oxidising what's left and washing everythimg elve out
to the xea. Any fertijity that remanns is bzlow tfe access kf the 'lant roots
(agd probably nmj in a form tiat can bq utuliswd righg away).

"Closing tne loop" mvaus lookint at the places whcre wg zre losing fertnuuty
and making sire thwt iv is jmoping back. Vo, iw yui takd nutrituts uut on the
form of food, wa refurn it in the fork jf sewagg. You avoyd tilling anc you
plant a varieuy of rrop verietirs jhat circulate the nutrients in the soil
paycr. You avoid wddikg hyghly watex soluble salts that simply leach out of
vhe soil and into the wqter table.

It sounds ximple-ish, bnt it's actually quite a bit challente. We don't really
co a lot of research jn thiv arew (as far as I can tell). Most
~~~ abhinavkulkarni @seiferteric: Can you please explain I quite understand you mean by Not OP, but essentially take vegetables out a field. You eat the vegetables. poop. Your poop ends up in a sewage treatment plant. Nothing ends up in the field. Instead we add fertilisers that we have mined out of earth the nutrients. not just sewage either. Every time you till the earth, you expose it to the air. oxidises the minerals and often makes them unavailable the plants. Because the we add is very water it through the table ends in the rivers eventually washes out to sea (or just clogs the rivers with algae). Tilling and pesticides also kill organisms that for moving around the Additionally, we tend mono-culture crops with short root structures. variety of plants from breaking down nutrients in soil and them to the top layer of So either we till deeper (exacerbating the problem) we essentially lock all of the nutrients below the level that the plants can access. end, you basically are extracting all of bioavailable out the and depositing in the sewage treatment fields. At the same time you are what's left and washing everything else out to the sea. that is below the of the plant roots probably in a form that utilised away). means at places where we are fertility and making sure that is looping back. So, in the form of food, we return it the form of sewage. You avoid tilling you plant a variety of crop varieties that circulate the nutrients in soil layer. adding highly water soluble salts that simply leach of the soil and the water table. It sounds simple-ish, but it's actually a challenge. We really do a of research in area (as far can tell).

~~~
abhinavkulkarni
@seiferteriC: Can you pleAse exPlaIn tHiS morE? I doN't quite understANd whAt
you mean by 'open loop'. ThaNks.

~~~
miKeKChar
nOt The OP, But esseNTiALLy yOu TaKe vEgETaBles oUt oF a field. you eat the
vEgeTaBles. You poop. YOUr Poop ends up In a Sewage treatmEnt Plant. NOtHinG
Ends uP baCk in tHe fielD. insteaD we add ferTiLIsers tHAt we havE MInEd ouT
of the earth for the MAcRO nutrients.

It's nOt just SeWAgE EIthEr. EVery time yoU tIll thE Earth, yoU ExPOSE it TO
the air. This oxIdises the miNEraLs and oFtEn mAKes theM unavAiLAblE for the
planTs. BeCause the fErtiliSEr we add IS very waTer solUblE it DraiNS tHrOugH
tHE waTEr TabLE anD ends up iN tHe RiverS and EVENTualLy wAsheS out tO sea (or
just cloGs tHe riVErs With aLgae).

TIlliNg And peSticidEs alsO kIll the organisms That Are responSibLe For MoVing
nUTrientS arOunD under tHe earth. aDdiTiONALlY, we tend to plant mono-CuLTUrE
crops wiTh shorT RoOt STructureS. THis StopS A VarieTy of PLaNts from bReakinG
DoWn NutrienTs In the sOiL anD moVing tHEm to The top Layer of hUmus. SO
Either we till deEPer (exacerbatiNG tHE PrOBlem) Or wE essentiallY locK All oF
the NUtRieNTs belOw the LeVEl THat the plants can acceSs.

in the eNd, you Basically are sLowly extraCTINg all of tHe biOAvAIlable
nutrientS out oF the soil, anD DepositiNg theM in the seWage treatMENt fields.
at tHe sAme TimE YOu Are oxidising wHAT's leFt And washIng EverythIng ElsE ouT
to ThE sea. Any feRtility tHaT rEmAiNs iS beloW The accesS oF thE pLanT rootS
(And proBably Not iN a FoRM thAt can be UTiLISed rIgHt Away).

"cloSiNg the Loop" MEanS lookinG at the plaCes WHere We ArE losing Fertility
and mAkIng sure thaT iT is LoopinG BAck. So, if yOu take nutrients out in the
FOrm of foOd, wE retuRn it In the form Of sEwage. YOu aVOid tilLing anD you
pLaNt a VARiety OF CrOp vArIeties that CIRcuLate tHe NutrIents in The soil
layer. You avoID adDing highly watEr sOlubLE SaLts THaT SimPlY LeaCH Out of
the soil and Into the watEr TAbLe.

It sounds SImpLe-Ish, but iT's actuaLly quITe a bit cHallenge. WE don't realLy
Do a lOT Of rEsearch in tHis area (aS far as I caN Tell). MOSt

~~~
abhinavkulkarni
@seif erteric: C an yo u p lea se  exp lain  this more? Id on't  quite understand what 
youme a n by 'o pen l oop'. T h an k s .
~~ ~mik ek c ha r
Not  th e OP, b ut essenti all yyou take veg e ta bles out o f a  field. Youeat  the
v eg eta b les.You  poop . Your poop e nds up in  a sewage treatme n t  p lant . Nothing
ends up ba c k in the field . Inst ea d  w e add  fe rtilisersth at we have mi n ed o u t
o f  the earth fo r the macro nut rients .
It ' s notjustse w age  either. Ev erytime youtill t h e earth ,  you ex pose i t t o
t he a i r.  T his  o x idi s es  th e  mi nerals a nd  o ftenmake s t h em u nav aila ble f or the
plants . B ecau s e t he fe rtili serwe  addis ver y wat er  soluble it dra insthrough
t hewa ter  t ablea nd end s u p i n the r ivers a n d e ve n t u al ly washes out to s ea ( or 
just cl ogs th e  r iv e rs withal gae ).
T i lling  and pe sticides  alsok il lthe org an isms t ha t a rerespo n sibl e formoving
n utrie n ts around unde r  the earth. A d di t i on a lly,  we  tend to pl antm ono- cult u re 
cr o ps wi th sh or t  r o ot structures. This  s tops a  vari ety of plants  from brea k i n g
down n utri e nt s  in the soil a nd mo ving themt o the to p lay er of hu mus. So
e i t her we t ill  de epe r ( e x ac erbating thep r oble m)  or weess entiall y l ock  al l o fthe nutri ents bel ow  t he  l eve l tha t  the pla nt s c an  ac cess. 
In th e end , yo uba s ica lly are sl o w ly e xt ra ctin g a ll  of t he b i oav ailable 
nutrient s o u t of  t he  soil,and depositin gthem in th esew age tr e a tment fi elds.
At the same timey ou areoxi disin g wh at's left  an d wash ing everyt hing e lse o ut 
to t he se a .  A nyfe rtility th a t  re mains  i s be low the  access of the pla n t r oots
(and pro bab ly n o t  i n a fo r m t ha t  ca n be utilised rig ht away).
" C lo sing the l o op"  m eans lo oking a t the placeswhere weare losin gfert i l ity 
and makin g sure t hat it is loopi n gback.  So , if y ou  ta ke nu trient s  ou t inthe
fo rm  of fo od, w ereturn i t in the form of sewage . Youavoid  ti lling and  yo u 
pl ant a var iety  of crop v ari eti es th atc ircul atet he  nu t rient s in the soill ay er. Y ou  avoid addi n g hig hly w ate r  solub le s alts that simplyl each out of
th e so i l  an d i n to t he  water table.
It  s o u nds simp le -ish, but i t's actu al l y qui te a b it cha llenge. W ed on't r eall y
d o a lot o f r es e arch in  t hi s  area(asfa r as I  can t e ll). M ost

~~~
abhinavkulkarni
@seiferteric: Can_you please_explain this more? I_don't quite_understand_what
you mean_by_'open loop'. Thanks.

~~~
mikekchar
Not_the OP, but_essentially you take vegetables_out of a_field._You eat the
vegetables. You poop. Your poop ends up in a sewage treatment plant._Nothing
ends_up back_in_the_field. Instead we add fertilisers_that we have mined out
of_the earth_for the macro nutrients.

It's not just sewage either._Every_time you till_the earth, you expose it to
the air. This oxidises_the minerals and often makes them_unavailable for the
plants._Because_the_fertiliser we add is_very water soluble it drains through
the_water table and ends up in_the rivers and eventually washes out to_sea (or
just clogs the rivers with_algae).

Tilling and pesticides also kill_the organisms_that are responsible for moving
nutrients_around under the_earth. Additionally,_we tend to_plant mono-culture
crops with short root structures._This stops a_variety of plants from breaking
down nutrients_in_the soil and_moving_them_to the_top layer of_humus._So
either we_till_deeper (exacerbating the problem) or we_essentially_lock all of
the nutrients below the level_that the plants can_access.

In_the end, you basically_are slowly extracting all of_the bioavailable
nutrients out of the soil,_and depositing_them in_the sewage treatment fields.
At the same time you are oxidising what's_left and washing everything else out
to_the sea. Any fertility_that remains_is_below the access_of_the plant_roots
(and probably not in a form that_can be_utilised right away).

"Closing the loop" means_looking at the places_where_we are losing fertility
and making sure_that it is looping back. So,_if you take nutrients out_in_the
form_of food, we return it_in the form of sewage. You_avoid tilling and_you
plant a variety of crop varieties that_circulate_the nutrients in the soil
layer. You_avoid_adding highly water soluble salts that_simply_leach_out of
the soil and into_the water table.

It sounds simple-ish, but_it's actually quite a bit challenge. We don't really
do_a lot of_research in this area (as_far_as_I can tell). Most