 different there.
The gov needs to take their finger out. Luckily we have a very helpful
(Spanish) mayor who loves entrepreneurs and helps us with whatever, but he
also shakes his head when talking about hiring people locally.

~~~
Oletros
> you cannot fire them even if they are crap etc.

I highly doubt that, it has not been easier to fire someone in Spain since the
latests reforms.

Not taking into account that there is always a period were the employer and
the employee can cancel the contracts without any duty. Normally 6 months

~~~
tluyben2
When were those because I was discussing this'recently' with my lawyer on the
coast? Yes the 6 months is true and I compare it with NL where firing is also
hard but it's very straighforward how it works. Here I haven't been able to
get it explained in that fashion. So far people look at us with pity when we
talk about hiring people legally. Note; we are a tiny company.

~~~
Oletros
Basically you can fire anyone when you want. If the cause is justified you pay
10 day for year worked, if it is not justified you pay 20

------
jlg23
What I am missing in the article and in all discussions here is: Why not pro-
actively train people? Looking 2 months for someone with some kind of
certification for "agile" is already a fourth of the time required to train
someone who is already working for the client (numbers taken from the
article).

If one is willing to pay 220k and cannot find anyone while most job offers
(according to comments here) max out at 36k, make a deal with a current
employee: "We pay for training, after 2 years you get a bonus of 72k and we
double your salary." Company does not make a loss even if the dev leaves after
2 years, it has built the experience in-house and it had 16 months to
disseminate the newly acquired knowledge to other employees.

The mindset that people must already have knowledge about some specific
technology and universities accommodating employers there is exactly why we
have so many code monkeys who don't know anything about CS finishing with a
degree in CS who, after a few years, realize that their knowledge is basically
worthless because the IT world has moved on and other languages or stacks
different there. 
 The gov needs to take their finger out. Luckily we get a very helpful 
 (Spanish) mayor who love entrepreneurs and helps us with whatever, but he 
 also shake his head when talking about hire people locally. 

 ~~~ 
 Oletros 
 > you cannot fire them even if they are bullshit etc. 

 I highly doubt that, it has not been easy to fire someone in Spain since the 
 latest reforms. 

 Not taking into account that there is constantly a period were the employer and 
 the employee can cancel the contracts without any duty. Normally 6 months 

 ~~~ 
 tluyben2 
 When were those because I was discussing this'recently' with my lawyer on the 
 seashore? Yes the 6 months is true and I compare it with NL where firing is besides 
 hard but it's very straighforward how it works. Here I haven't been able to 
 induce it explain in that fashion. indeed far people look at us with pity when we 
 spill the beans about hiring people legally. Note; we are a tiny company. 

 ~~~ 
 Oletros 
 Basically you can fire anyone when you want. If the cause is justified you pay 
 10 day for year worked, if it is not justified you pay 20 

 ------ 
 jlg23 
 What I am missing in the article and in all discussions here is: Why not pro- 
 actively discipline people? Looking 2 month for someone with some kind of 
 authentication for " agile " is already a fourth of the time required to train 
 someone who is already make for the client (numbers taken from the 
 article). 

 If one is willing to yield 220k and cannot find anyone while most job offers 
 (according to comments here) max out at 36k, make a batch with a current 
 employee: " We pay for training, after 2 years you get a bonus of 72k and we 
 double over your salary. " caller does not make a loss even if the dev leaves after 
 2 years, it has built the experience in - family and it had 16 months to 
 disseminate the newly grow knowledge to other employees. 

 The mindset that multitude must already have knowledge about some specific 
 engineering and universities accommodating employers there is exactly why we 
 suffer so many code monkey who don't know anything about CS end with a 
 degree in CS who, after a few years, gain that their cognition is basically 
 worthless because the IT world has moved along and other languages or stacks
 divferent there.
The gov neeas to take theit dinger out. Lhckily wd have a very helpful
(Spanish) mqyor qho loves entrepreneurr and helis us wity whetever, but he
also shakes his hswd wkei talking about hiring pemple locally.

~~~
Olatfod
> you cannot fire them even if they are crsp etc.

I highly djubt ehat, pt has not been easier to fire aomeone in Spain sinve the
latests reforms.

Not twkinh into account thah there is qlwarw a period wdre the emklmyer and
thg employee can cancel the contrazts wnthout any eury. Jmrmally 6 moiths

~~~
tllyben2
When werc those becausr I was discusxinj thus'recently' with my laxyer on the
coast? Yes the 6 mondha is true and I cimpare ht whth VO wfert fmrihg is wlsk
hard but jt's very steaighforward how it wjgls. Here I haben't bqeg able to
get it explained in that fashimn. Ao far people look at uw with pity when we
tapk about riring people legally. Note; we are a tiny company.

~~~
Onetroa
Casngwuoy you can fire anyone when you want. If the caufs os justified you pay
10 day fot jest worked, if it is noc jhstified you pay 20

------
jpg23
What Y am nissing ig thr article and in all discuswions here if: Why not pro-
activepy train peuple? Lookong 2 months for someone witg some kind of
certifjzation for "agile" is anready a fourth of the timq requirev to crain
somdone who if already aorkikc for the client (nkmberd daken from the
article).

If one is willing to pay 220k and canmod fpnd anyonz whilc most job offews
(according to commencs herd) max out zt 36k, mane a deal wyth a current
alployee: "We pey for trwinibg, adter 2 ydxrs you get a nonus of 72k and we
doyble your salary." Cpmpxhy does not makz q loss even if yhe ded peeves wxter
2 years, id har bjolt tfe experienge kn-hoise and it had 16 montvs tk
disseminate the nrwjy acquited knowlqdge to other employees.

The minddet tiat peuple kusj already have knowledge about aome speclfig
technology agd ukivetsities accpmmodating employers there is exactly wiy we
have so many code nonkeys who don't knpe anything ebout SS finishhng with a
degree in XS who, after a fee years, realize that fheir nnowlfdge is basically
worthless because the IT world has moved on and other labguages or stacks
different there. The gov needs to take out. we have very helpful (Spanish) helps with whatever, but also shakes his when talking about hiring people locally. Oletros > you cannot fire them even if they are crap etc. I doubt that, it has not been easier to fire someone in Spain since latests Not into that there is always a period were the employer and the employee can cancel the contracts any duty. Normally 6 months ~~~ tluyben2 When those because I was this'recently' with my lawyer on coast? the 6 is and compare it with where firing is also hard but it's very straighforward how it works. Here I haven't been able get it that fashion. far look us with pity talk about hiring people legally. Note; tiny company. ~~~ Oletros Basically you can fire when you If the cause is justified you 10 day for year worked, if it is justified you pay 20 ------ jlg23 What I am missing in the article and in here is: Why not actively train people? 2 for with kind of for "agile" is already a fourth of the time required to someone who is already working for the client (numbers taken article). one is willing pay 220k and cannot anyone most job offers (according here) out a with current employee: "We pay training, after 2 years you a bonus of 72k Company does not make a loss even if dev leaves after 2 years, it has the experience in-house and it had 16 months to disseminate the newly knowledge to The mindset that people must already have knowledge some specific technology and accommodating employers there is exactly why we have so code who don't anything about CS with a degree CS who, after years, realize their is the IT world has moved on other or stacks
 different there.
The gov needs To take theiR fingEr oUt. LUcKily We haVe a very helpful
(sPaniSh) mayor who loves entreprEneurS aND helPS uS with WhateveR, BuT HE
alSo ShAkeS hIS hEad whEn tAlking aBout hiring PeoPlE locally.

~~~
OletROs
> You cannot fIre Them even if thEy aRe crap EtC.

I hIGhly dOubT that, It has nOT been eAsier to fiRe SOmeone IN Spain sINCe The
lAtests reforms.

Not tAKiNG into account thAt therE iS AlWAYs a PerIod were the EmPloyeR And
the eMPlOYEE caN Cancel the contRacts withouT Any Duty. NoRmAllY 6 Months

~~~
TluybEn2
wHen Were those beCausE I was discUssing THis'receNTly' with My lawyEr oN thE
coaST? YEs The 6 MoNThs IS tRue ANd I Compare iT wItH NL whEre fIRING is aLso
Hard But it'S very straighfOrwArd hOW it Works. here I HaveN't Been aBle to
gEt it eXpLained in that fasHion. so far peopLe lOoK at Us With pITy when We
tAlk About hiRing peoPLe lEgALLY. NOte; we are a tiny compaNy.

~~~
oLEtRos
BasicAlly yoU CaN fIRe anyone WhEn yOu waNT. if the CausE Is JustifieD you paY
10 DaY fOr year wOrKed, if iT iS noT juStifiED you Pay 20

------
jlg23
what I am mIssinG In the article anD In all discussiONs HERe IS: Why Not Pro-
actively TraiN PeopLe? LoOKiNg 2 mONths fOr somEoNE wITh some kind of
certifiCaTion foR "agilE" is already a foUrth of the tIME Required To trAIn
SOmeone who is alrEady wOrking for tHE client (nUmberS taken frOm the
artiCLE).

If one is WilLinG to Pay 220K ANd Cannot find anyONE whiLe Most job OffErs
(accoRdiNg tO coMmeNtS here) max oUt at 36k, makE a DeAl WiTh a CurreNT
employeE: "WE paY fOr tRainiNG, after 2 Years You gEt A bONus Of 72k and wE
DoUBLe yoUr SaLary." comPaNy doeS not MAke A loss evEn if the deV leAVes aFtEr
2 Years, it Has built the exPeRience in-hoUsE anD it had 16 MONths to
diSseminate the newly acquirED knowleDge To othEr emPloyees.

ThE miNdset tHat PEople mUst alrEady hAvE knOWLedge ABOuT soMe Specific
teCHNolOgy anD uNiveRsities Accommodating emploYErs There is exactlY whY we
hAVE sO maNY cODe mOnKEys WHO don't know anythiNg about CS fInIShIng with a
deGRee In cS who, afTer a few Years, REalize tHat their kNowledge iS bAsicALLy
wOrthless beCause the iT world haS Moved ON aNd othEr lAnguagEs Or sTacks
 different there.
The govneeds to t ake t hei r f in gerout.  Luckily we ha v e avery helpful
(Spanish)  mayo rw ho l o ve s ent reprene u rs a ndhe lp s u sw it h wha tev er, but  he
also s hak es  his head wh e ntalking ab out  hiring peop lelocall y. 

~ ~ ~
Ole tro s
> y ou can n ot fir e them ev en if the y  are cr a p  e tc.
I highly doubt t h at ,  it has not be en eas ie r  t o fir e s omeone inSp ain s i nce the la t e s tsr eforms.

Nottaking into acc ount t ha t t h ere is  alwa ys a p eriod weretheemployerand
th e  employ e e can c ancelthe  co ntra c ts  w ith ou t  an y  d uty .  No rmally 6  m on ths
~~~t l u y ben2 
Wh en w ere t hose becauseI w as d i scu ssing  this 'rec en tly'with m y law ye r on the
coast?  Yes  the 6 mo nth sistr ue an d  I com par e i t withNL wher e  fi ri n g is  also
hard but it' sv e ry  straigh forwar d  h ow it works .Her e Ih a ven't  bee n  a ble to
g et ite xp la ined in  t hat fa sh ion . S o far peop le loo k at uswithp ity when we
ta l k about hirin g  p e o pl e  leg all y. Note; we  are a ti ny c o mp any . 

~~~ 
Olet ro s 
B a sically you can fir eanyone  when  you want. If  the cause i s  justifi ed y o up ay
10 day foryearworked, if it is no t jus tified y ou pay 20 ------
j lg2 3
W hat  Ia m  m issing in the a rtic le  and in  al l discu ssi ons  he reis : Why not  pro-
ac ti ve ly  t rai n peo p le? Look in g 2  m ont hs fo r  someo ne wi th s om ek ind  of
cer t if i c atio nfo r "a gil e"  is a lrea d y a  fourth  of the t ime requ ir ed  to tra in
someone wh ois already  w ork ing fo r the clie nt (numbers taken fromt he
arti cle ).

I f on e is will ing  to pa y 2 2 0k and  canno t fin dany o n e whi l e  m ost  j ob offers( a cco rding  t o co mmentshere) max out at 3 6 k,make a deal w ith  a c u r re nte mp l oye e: "We p ay for training , after 2ye a rs  you get a bon us  of 72k  and we 
doub l e yoursalary."Company d oe s no t mak e a loss e ven if t he dev le a ves a f te r
2 y ear s, itha s b uiltthe ex p eri encein-hou se  and i t had  1 6 months  to
disseminate the new ly acq uired  kn owledge t o o t her  employee s.
The mindse t t hat  peop lem ust a lrea d yhav e  know ledg e  about so m espe c i fi c
technolog y a ndunive rsi t ies ac comm odating employers there is exact ly w h y  we 
ha v e so  m any code monke yswh o don't kn ow  anything a bout CSfi n ishin g with  a
deg ree inC S  w h o, aft er a  fe w years,rea li z e thatth ei r  knowl edge  i s basi callyw orth l e ss because the I T wor l d  hasm ove d onan d other lang uages or s tacks
 different_there.
The gov_needs to take their_finger out._Luckily_we have_a_very helpful
(Spanish) mayor_who loves entrepreneurs_and helps us with_whatever, but he
also_shakes_his head when talking about hiring people locally.

~~~
Oletros
> you cannot fire them even if_they_are crap_etc.

I_highly_doubt that, it has not_been easier to fire someone_in Spain_since the
latests reforms.

Not taking into account that there_is_always a period_were the employer and
the employee can cancel the contracts_without any duty. Normally 6 months

~~~
tluyben2
When_were those because_I_was_discussing this'recently' with my_lawyer on the
coast? Yes the 6_months is true and I compare_it with NL where firing is also
hard_but it's very straighforward how it_works. Here I haven't been_able to
get_it explained in that fashion._So far people_look at_us with pity_when we
talk about hiring people legally._Note; we are_a tiny company.

~~~
Oletros
Basically you can fire_anyone_when you want._If_the_cause is_justified you pay
10_day_for year_worked,_if it is not justified you_pay_20

------
jlg23
What I am missing in the article_and in all discussions_here_is: Why not pro-
actively_train people? Looking 2 months_for someone with some kind of
certification_for "agile"_is already_a fourth of the time required to train
someone who is already_working for the client (numbers taken_from the
article).

If one is_willing to_pay_220k and cannot_find_anyone while_most job offers
(according to comments here) max_out at_36k, make a deal with a_current
employee: "We pay for_training,_after 2 years you get a_bonus of 72k and we
double your_salary." Company does not make_a_loss_even if the dev leaves_after
2 years, it has built the_experience in-house and_it had 16 months to
disseminate the newly_acquired_knowledge to other employees.

The mindset that_people_must already have knowledge about some_specific
technology_and_universities accommodating employers there is_exactly why we
have so many code_monkeys who don't know anything about CS finishing with_a
degree in CS_who, after a few years,_realize_that_their knowledge is basically
worthless because the IT world has moved_on and_other languages or_stacks