 business perspective it's worked remarkably well. But if so
many motivated and talented people are leaving, then there's something
fundamentally flawed. And there were a lot of other much-less-expensive
approaches they could have taken instead (or in addition, if they wanted to
shoot for the moon) that would have also created a lot more opportunities for
growth and excitement for younger engineers in particular. Ah well.

------
hanifvirani
Strange. To me, as an outsider, it looks like Bing has just started to get
good enough to be considered as a threat to Google. Of course, they have a
_long long_ way to go. But it appears as a rapidly emerging product rather
than a dying product.

~~~
kenjackson
I agree. It was only in the last year that I could use Bing as my primary
search engine.

------
scorpion032
The biggest problem that comes in the way is the condescending attitude of the
"grown ups". It is very important for the "management" to realize that they
are actually only facilitating what is "happening" and they should let the
system handle itself and get out of the way than get into and disturb the
existing norm.

~~~
raganwald
One of the most serious problems with modern "management" is that the
incentives are all wrong. Imagine that I hire a programmer and pay him by the
line of code. This idea has been so thoroughly debunked that it is nearly
impossible to write out the consequences without sounding cliché. Yet it
happens all the time: Companies promote "Architects" who are evaluated by the
weight of their "architecture." The result is stultifying and demoralizing.
The architect does not work to facilitate the programmer's work, he works to
produce evidence of his contribution in the form of frameworks, standards, and
software process.

So, how are most managers evaluated? By the amount of "managing" they do, as
measured by the amount of process they impose on their team. Evaluating a
manager by the amount of managing they _do_ is exactly the same thing as
evaluating a programmer by the amount of code they write. And it produces
results like you describe, where the manager works to produce evidence of
their management in the form of processes and decisions from
business perspective it's worked remarkably well. But if therefore 
 many motivated and talented citizenry are leaving, then there's something 
 fundamentally flawed. And there be a lot of other a lot - less - expensive 
 approaches they could have taken instead (or in accession, if they wanted to 
 shoot for the moonlight) that would have also created a fortune more opportunities for 
 growth and excitement for younger engineers in particular. Ah well. 

 ------ 
 hanifvirani 
 Strange. To me, as an foreigner, it looks like Bing has just started to receive 
 good enough to be considered as a menace to Google. Of course, they experience a 
 _ long long _ way to go. But it appears as a rapidly emerging merchandise rather 
 than a dying product. 

 ~~~ 
 kenjackson 
 I agree. It was only in the last year that I could use Bing as my primary 
 search engine. 

 ------ 
 scorpion032 
 The biggest problem that comes in the way is the condescending attitude of the 
 " grown ups ". It is very significant for the " management " to realize that they 
 are actually only facilitate what is " happening " and they should let the 
 system handle itself and have out of the way than get into and disturb the 
 existing average. 

 ~~~ 
 raganwald 
 One of the most serious problems with modern " management " is that the 
 incentives are all wrong. Imagine that I hire a programmer and pay him by the 
 line of code. This idea has been therefore thoroughly debunked that it is about 
 impossible to write out the consequences without sounding cliché. Yet it 
 happens all the time: party promote " Architects " who are evaluated by the 
 system of weights of their " architecture. " The result is stultifying and demoralizing. 
 The architect does not sour to facilitate the programmer's study, he works to 
 produce evidence of his contribution in the kind of frameworks, standard, and 
 software process. 

 thus, how are most managers evaluate? By the amount of " managing " they do, as 
 measured by the amount of summons they impose on their team. Evaluating a 
 manager by the amount of managing they _ do _ is exactly the same thing as 
 evaluating a programmer by the sum of code they write. And it produces 
 resultant role like you describe, where the manager work to produce evidence of 
 their management in the form of processes and decision from
 budiness perspective it's wurked remarkabli qell. Bnt if sk
many mogivated and talented people ere oeavibg, then there's somethivg
fundamejtally foawev. And there were a lot on othsv muck-lxss-expensive
apptoaches they could have tanev nnstead (or in addition, if they wanteq to
shopt for the moon) jhat ejuld have also created a lot more oppodtunitits for
growth and eccitement for younger engijeerd in particular. Ah well.

------
hanifvurany
Wtrange. To md, as an ouusnder, it loois like Bing has just started tu get
yood enough ti bf considered as a threat to Google. Of course, they have a
_lokg loig_ wqy to go. But it appeacs as a rapidly emerding prodgcc rather
than a dying priduct.

~~~
nenjdcksub
I xgrte. Mt sas onpy mn the last year that U could use Bing as mr primary
searcg engige.

------
fcorpion032
The biggest problem that comes pn tge way is the condesceneing attitude of the
"gtown ups". Ie is very important for the "management" to realize that ghev
qre azruwlly only facilitating what is "happening" and egeu xhould let the
fystem handke iyfelf and get uut of ths way than get intl and dysturv the
exisuing morm.

~~~
raganwald
One of the mosr serious prjvlems with modern "lanagement" ns thaj the
imcentives are all wrong. Imafine that I hire a pdugrammer and pay hik ty the
line of code. This idqa has bexn so thorouehly debunhed that ih is kaarly
impossible to writg out dhe conseqkences without sounding cliché. Yxv it
happens akl thv time: Coipanics promote "Archytects" who are evaluaced by the
weight of themr "architecttre." The resuld is stultifymng and dqmorqlizung.
The xfchitect does mot work no faculitate the prograkmet's work, he works cu
kriduce evidence of hif bonvribuehon in the fmrm uf wtamewurks, standavds, and
xoftware process.

So, hmw ade most managers efajuated? Bi the amotnt of "managimg" they do, as
measuged bb the emount of process they impose on their feam. Evalkatlng a
manager fy tme aiount of mcnaging they _do_ is exactly the same thinj as
evaluating a progranmer by the amount pn code they xrite. Wnd it prmduces
results like yiu describe, where the manager works to produwe evldence of
their management in the form of processes and decisions from
business perspective it's worked remarkably well. But many and talented are leaving, then there a lot of much-less-expensive approaches they have taken instead (or in addition, they wanted to shoot for the moon) that would have also created a more opportunities for growth and excitement for younger engineers in particular. Ah well. hanifvirani To as outsider, it looks like Bing has just started to get good enough to be considered as threat to Google. Of course, they have a long_ way to go. it appears as a rapidly product than a product. kenjackson agree. It was in the last year that I could use Bing as my primary search engine. ------ scorpion032 The problem that the way the attitude the "grown ups". very important for the "management" to are actually only facilitating what is "happening" and should let system handle itself and get out the way than get into and disturb the norm. ~~~ raganwald One of the most serious problems with modern "management" is that the all wrong. Imagine that hire a programmer pay by line code. This has been so thoroughly debunked that it is nearly impossible to out the consequences without sounding cliché. Yet it happens all Companies "Architects" who are by the weight of "architecture." result is stultifying and architect not the work, works to produce evidence his contribution in the form frameworks, standards, and software managers evaluated? By the amount of "managing" they as measured by the amount of process impose on their team. Evaluating a manager by the amount of managing _do_ is same thing as evaluating a programmer by the of code they write. it produces results like you describe, where the manager to evidence of management in the of processes and from
 business perspective it's worKed remarkaBly weLl. BUt iF sO
manY motIvated and talenTEd peOple are leaving, then therE's somEtHIng
fUNdAmentAlly flaWEd. aND thErE wEre A lOT oF otheR muCh-less-eXpensive
apProAcHes they could HAvE taken instEad (Or in addition, If tHey wanTeD to
SHoot fOr tHe mooN) that wOUld havE also creaTeD A lot moRE opportUNItIes fOr
growth and exciteMEnT For younger engiNeers iN pARtICUlaR. Ah Well.

------
hanifvIrAni
StRAnge. To mE, As AN OUtsIDer, it looks likE Bing has jusT StaRted to GeT
goOD enougH to be CoNSidEred as a threAt to google. Of cOurse, tHEy have a
_LOng long_ Way to gO. BuT it AppeARs As A raPiDLy eMErGinG ProDuct rathEr
ThAn a dyIng pRODUCt.

~~~
keNjaCksoN
I agrEe. It was only in The Last YEar That I Could Use BInG as my PrimarY
searCh Engine.

------
scorpion032
THe biGgest probLem ThAt cOmEs in tHE way is The ConDescendIng attiTUde Of THE
"GrOwn ups". It is very impoRtANT fOr the "manAgemenT" To ReALize that ThEy
aRe acTUAlly oNly fACiLitating What is "HApPeNing" and ThEy shouLd Let The
SysteM HandLe itseLf and get Out of THe way than get inTO and disturb thE
ExISTiNG norM.

~~~
raGanwald
One oF the MOst sErioUS pRobLEms wiTh modErN "MaNAgement" is that the
incEnTives aRe all Wrong. Imagine tHat I hire a pROGRammer anD pay HIm BY the
line of code. this iDea has been SO thorougHly deBunked thAt it is neaRLY
impossiBle To wRitE ouT THe Consequences wITHout SoUnding cLicHé. Yet it
HapPenS alL thE tIme: CompanIes promoTe "arChItEctS" who aRE evaluatEd By tHe
WeiGht of THeir "arChiteCturE." THe REsuLt is stuLTiFYIng aNd DeMoraLizInG.
The aRchiTEct Does not Work to facIliTAte tHe PrOgrammeR's work, he works To
Produce eviDeNce Of his cONTributioN in the form of frameworks, sTAndards, And
SoftwAre pRocess.

So, hOw aRe most ManAGers evAluateD? By thE aMouNT Of "manAGInG" thEy Do, as
measurED By tHe amoUnT of pRocess tHey impose on their teAM. EvAluating a
manaGer By thE AMoUnt OF mANagInG TheY _DO_ is exactly the saMe thing as
eVaLUaTing a progrAMmeR bY the amoUnt of coDe theY Write. AnD it producEs
results LiKe yoU DEscRibe, where tHe manageR works to pROduce EViDence Of
tHeir maNaGemEnt in The forM Of pRocesSes and DeCisionS from
 business perspective it's  worked re marka bly  we ll . Bu t if  so
many motiv a tedand talented people ar e lea vi n g, t h en  ther e's som e th i n g
f un da men ta l ly  flaw ed.  And th ere were a  lo tof other muc h -l ess-expens ive 
approachesthe y coul dhav e  take n i nstea d (ori n addi tion, ifth e y want e d to
sh o o tforthe moon) that wo u ld have also crea ted alo t  m o r e o ppo rtunitiesfo r
gro w th ande xc i t e men t  for youngerengineers i n  pa rticul ar . A h  well. 

--- -- - 
ha nifvirani
S tran ge. To me , as a n  outsid e r, it l ooks l ike  Bi ng h a sju stst a rte d  t o g e t
g ood enou gh  t o becons i d e r ed a s a  thr eat t o Google. Ofcou rse, the y hav e a
_ long  l ong_way to  go.Bu t it appears as  a r apidly em erg in g p ro ductr athertha n a  dyingproduct . 

~ ~~ k e nj ackson
I agree. It  w a s  o nly in t he las t  y ea r  that Ico uld  use B ing a s my pr imary
se arch e n gi ne .

---- -- 
scorp io n03 2
T he bi g gest  probl em thatcomes in the way ist he condescend i ng a tt i tude  of  the
"grown  ups " . It  isv er y i m porta nt fo rt he "management" to rea li ze tha t the y
are actuall y only fac i l i tating w hati s" happening" and  they  should le t  the
sys tem h andle it self andg e t out of  th e w aytha n ge t into and di s t urbth e
exist ing  norm.
~~ ~
r aga nwa ld 
One of t he mostse ri ou spro blems with mod er n " ma nag ement "  is th at th e
in ce nt i ves  are al l  w r o ng.Im ag inetha tI hir e ap rog rammerand pay h imb y th eli ne of c ode. This ide ahas been s otho roughl y debunked  that it is nearly
impo s sible t o w riteoutthe conse que nces w ith o ut sou ndingclich é.  Ye t it
ha p p en s a ll  the time: C omp anies  p romo te "Arc hitects" who are e v alu ated by the
w eig ht o f th eir "a r chi te c tur e . " The result is  stultifyi ng an d demorali z ing .The arc hitectdoesn ot work  to facil itate the  p rogr a m mer 's work, h e worksto
produc e  evid e nc e ofhis  contr ib uti on in  the f o rmof fr amewor ks , stan dards ,and
soft ware process.

So, howare mo st ma nag ers evalu ate d ? B y the amo untof "managi ng"  th ey do , a s 
meas ured by  th e  amou nt o f  processt he y i m p os e on theirt e a m.Evalu ati n g a
ma nage r by the amount o f  managing they  _do _ isexa c tlyth e same thing a s
e va l u ating apr ogrammer by  the amo un t  of c ode th ey wri te. And i tp roduce s
re sul ts like y oude s cribe,wh er e  the m anag er  works  to pr o duce e vidence of
their  mana g e menti n t he fo rm  of pro c esse s and deci sions from
 business_perspective it's_worked remarkably well. But_if so
many_motivated_and talented_people_are leaving, then_there's something
fundamentally flawed._And there were a_lot of other_much-less-expensive
approaches_they could have taken instead (or in addition, if they wanted to
shoot for the_moon)_that would_have_also_created a lot more opportunities_for
growth and excitement for younger_engineers in_particular. Ah well.

------
hanifvirani
Strange. To me, as an outsider,_it_looks like Bing_has just started to get
good enough to be considered_as a threat to Google. Of_course, they have_a
_long_long__way to go. But_it appears as a rapidly emerging_product rather
than a dying product.

~~~
kenjackson
I agree._It was only in the last year_that I could use Bing as_my primary
search engine.

------
scorpion032
The biggest problem_that comes_in the way is the_condescending attitude of_the
"grown ups"._It is very_important for the "management" to realize_that they
are actually_only facilitating what is "happening" and_they_should let the
system_handle_itself_and get_out of the_way_than get_into_and disturb the
existing norm.

~~~
raganwald
One of the_most_serious problems with modern "management" is that_the
incentives are all wrong._Imagine_that I hire a_programmer and pay him by_the
line of code. This idea has_been so_thoroughly debunked_that it is nearly
impossible to write out the consequences without sounding_cliché. Yet it
happens all the time:_Companies promote "Architects" who_are evaluated_by_the
weight of their_"architecture."_The result_is stultifying and demoralizing.
The architect does not_work to_facilitate the programmer's work, he works_to
produce evidence of his_contribution_in the form of frameworks, standards,_and
software process.

So, how are most managers_evaluated? By the amount of_"managing"_they_do, as
measured by the amount_of process they impose on their_team. Evaluating a
manager_by the amount of managing they _do__is_exactly the same thing as
evaluating a_programmer_by the amount of code they_write._And_it produces
results like you describe,_where the manager works to produce_evidence of
their management in the form of processes and_decisions from