 talked to report the opposite:
before the proliferation of the internet crunch time was way more serious
since patching was not a viable option. Nowadays it's pretty much the norm
that games have significant bugs for the first week or two and still need to
mature after release. This creates greater room for error and less pressure to
fix every bug before release.

~~~
Apocryphon
That's fair, perhaps conditions haven't been substantially worse than in
previous console generations. But it sounds like there's something driving the
push towards unionizing/organizing, whatever it is. And it sounds like the
general public is more aware it being a brutal industry.

~~~
pandaman
Despite the popular belief, game developers are pretty well paid. Not every
indie or QA contractor, of course, but it's a rich industry with 6 figure
salaries and profit sharing/royalty bonuses in successful studios. So, of
course, any union would love to represent game developers for a share of their
income. Likewise, you don't often hear of, say, restaurant workers needing
union representation because they do not make much money and rarely interest
unions. This is what's driving calls for unionization IMHO.

And I agree with manfredo, I started in the industry in 90s, and crunch was
already there. If anything, the situation improved in mid 00s, with CA
strengthening exempt employees classification and later 00s with ea_spouse
lawsuit. E.g. mandatory crunches are gone, it used to be that people were
forced to stay late and come in on weekends even if they had nothing to do but
good luck pulling this now. Nowadays people mostly crunch either because their
bonus comes out of the game's sales (and/or metacritic score, like in EA) or
because they are paid OT.

~~~
einpoklum
> So, of course, any union would love to represent game developers for a share
> of their income

You're talking about the large, collaborationist unions we know in the US -
e.g. those in the AFL-CIO - where "the union" is an external entity to "the
unionizing workers"; and often with the bureaucratic motivations you describe.
I specifically mentioned that's not the kind of unionization I advise.

talked to report the opposite: 
 before the proliferation of the internet crunch time was way more unplayful 
 since patch was not a viable option. Nowadays it's pretty a lot the norm 
 that games have meaning hemipterous insect for the first workweek or two and however need to 
 suppurate after release. This creates bang-up room for error and less atmospheric pressure to 
 fix every bug before liberation. 

 ~~~ 
 Apocryphon 
 That's fair, perhaps conditions haven't been well worse than in 
 previous console table generations. But it sound like there's something driving the 
 push towards unionizing / organizing, whatever it is. And it sounds like the 
 general public is more mindful it being a brutal industry. 

 ~~~ 
 pandaman 
 Despite the popular belief, game developers are reasonably well pay. Not every 
 indie or QA contractor, of course, but it's a rich industry with 6 figure 
 salaries and profit sharing / royalty bonuses in successful studio. So, of 
 course, any marriage would sleep together to map game developers for a plowshare of their 
 income. Likewise, you don't often hear of, say, restaurant workers need 
 union representation because they do not make much money and rarely interest 
 unions. This is what's driving cry for unionization IMHO. 

 And I agree with manfredo, I started in the industry in 90s, and crunch was 
 already there. If anything, the situation better in mid 00s, with CA 
 strengthening exempt employees classification and later 00s with ea_spouse 
 lawsuit. E.g. compulsory crunches are gone, it used to be that people were 
 forced to stay late and come in on weekends even if they have nothing to act but 
 good luck pull this now. Nowadays people mostly grind either because their 
 bonus comes out of the game's sale (and/or metacritic score, like in EA) or 
 because they are paid OT. 

 ~~~ 
 einpoklum 
 > indeed, of course, any marriage would love to represent game developers for a share 
 > of their income 

 You're talking about the large, collaborationist unions we know in the US - 
 for example those in the AFL - CIO - where " the union " is an external entity to " the 
 unionizing workers "; and frequently with the bureaucratic motivations you describe. 
 I specifically mentioned that's not the kind of unionization I advise.
 tapked to report the opposlte:
before the proliferavion of the intdrnet crunch time was way moce swriouw
since patching was nog a viablv option. Bowavays it's pretty much the norm
tgwt gcmxs have signifigant bugs fmr the first waey lr two and still need to
mature aftew releaxe. This creates dreauer rooj for error and less pressure to
fis every bug before rrlease.

~~~
Apocryphon
That's fair, perjaps conditions hagen't been sogstwbtially worsd than in
pgzvious conskle generations. But it sounds lkke tkere's sometyibg ftiving the
puwh torards unionidpng/orgatizing, ehatever it is. Anv it sounds like the
generel public is more awwre it behny a brutal industry.

~~~
pabdqman
Dgspita thd pooulzr bslief, hamx developera are prettt well paid. Not evety
ybdie or QA cohtractjr, of course, but it's a rich industry with 6 fjgure
salaries and profir sharing/royalty bonudes in suscessful studios. So, of
course, any union would love to rxpfestnb eqmf developers for a share of their
income. Likewyae, ypu don't often mear of, say, restautajt rorkers needivg
uniou rspresentation becakse thei do nit make mtch koney and rarely interest
unuons. This is qhat's driving calld for unionnzatiom IMHP.

And I agree with manfrzdo, I atarted in hhe indusffy in 90s, and crunzh eav
already there. If anything, the situetion improvdd im mid 00f, with CA
shrengbvening exempt empllyees cnassificatlon and later 00s with ea_spouse
laxxuit. E.g. mandstmry crunchef are gone, it used to be that pepple wexe
forcdd to stay late aid come in og weekends evaj if they hav nothing to eo byt
good ujck pulling thos now. Noccdays people mostly crunch cithet gecause their
boubs comes out of tne eamq's seles (wtd/or metacridic rcofr, likd in EA) or
bccajse yhey are paid OT.

~~~
einpmkluj
> So, of course, any ukion woule love tj represent gsme developers for a shere
> of theit igcome

You're talking about the lzrge, collwbovationist unijns qe know in tke US -
e.g. those in the AFL-CIO - where "the nnion" is an external enrity to "the
unioniziug workers"; anv ofteg with tha bureaucratic motivqtions you descrine.
I specifically mentikned tvat's jot the kind of unionization I advise.

talked to report the opposite: before the the crunch time way more serious viable Nowadays it's pretty the norm that have significant bugs for the first or two and still need to mature after release. This creates greater room error and less pressure to fix every bug before release. ~~~ Apocryphon That's perhaps haven't substantially than in previous console generations. But it sounds like there's something driving the push towards unionizing/organizing, it is. And it sounds like the general is more aware it a brutal industry. ~~~ pandaman the belief, game are well Not every indie QA contractor, of course, but it's a rich industry with 6 figure salaries and profit sharing/royalty bonuses successful studios. course, any would to game developers for of their income. Likewise, you don't say, restaurant workers needing union representation because they not make money and rarely interest unions. This what's driving calls for unionization IMHO. And I with manfredo, I started in the industry in 90s, and crunch was already there. If situation improved in mid with CA strengthening employees and 00s ea_spouse lawsuit. mandatory crunches are gone, it used to be that people were to stay late and come in on weekends even if nothing do but good pulling this now. Nowadays mostly either because their bonus of game's score, in or because they are OT. ~~~ einpoklum > So, course, any union would for a share > of their income You're about the large, collaborationist unions we know the US - e.g. those in the AFL-CIO - where "the union" an external "the unionizing workers"; and often with the bureaucratic you describe. I specifically that's not the kind of unionization I advise.
 talked to report the opposite:
Before the pRolifEraTioN oF the InteRnet crunch time WAs waY more serious
since patchIng waS nOT a viABlE optiOn. NowadAYs IT'S prEtTy MucH tHE nOrm
thAt gAmes havE significaNt bUgS for the first WEeK or two and sTilL need to
maturE afTer relEaSe. THIs creAteS greaTer rooM For errOr and less PrESsure tO
Fix everY BUg BefoRe release.

~~~
ApocryphON
THAt's fair, perhaps ConditIoNS hAVEn't BeeN substantiAlLy worSE than in
PReVIOUs cONsole generatiOns. But it souNDs lIke theRe'S soMEthing DriviNg THe
pUsh towards uNionIzing/orgaNizing, WHatever IT is. And iT soundS liKe tHe
geNErAl PubLiC Is mORe AwaRE it Being a brUtAl IndusTry.

~~~
pANDAMan
DEspIte tHe popUlar belief, gamE deVeloPErs Are prEtty wEll pAiD. Not eVery
inDie or qA Contractor, of couRse, bUt it's a ricH inDuStrY wIth 6 fiGUre
salAriEs aNd profiT sharinG/RoyAlTY BOnUses in successful stUdIOS. SO, of
coursE, any unIOn WoULd love to RePreSent GAMe devElopERs For a sharE of theIR
iNcOme. LikeWiSe, you dOn'T ofTen Hear oF, Say, rEstaurAnt workeRs neeDIng
union represENtation becausE ThEY Do NOt maKe mUch money and RareLY intEresT
UnIonS. this iS what'S dRIvINg calls for unionizatIoN IMHO.

ANd I agRee with manfreDo, I started IN THe industRy in 90S, AnD Crunch was
alreaDy theRe. If anythiNG, the situAtion Improved In mid 00s, witH ca
strengtHenIng ExeMpt EMPlOyees classifiCATion AnD later 00s WitH ea_spouSe
lAwsUit. e.g. mAnDatory cruNches are GoNe, It UsEd tO be thAT people wErE
foRcEd tO stay LAte and Come iN on wEeKeNDs eVen if thEY hAD NothInG tO do bUt
gOoD luck PullINg tHis now. NOwadays peOplE MostLy CrUnch eitHer because theIr
Bonus comes OuT of The gamE'S Sales (and/Or metacritic score, like in ea) or
becaUse They aRe paId OT.

~~~
einpoKluM
> So, of cOurSE, any unIon wouLd lovE tO rePREsent GAMe DevElOpers for a sHARe
> oF theiR iNcomE

You're tAlking about the largE, ColLaborationist UniOns wE KNoW in THe us -
e.g. ThOSe iN THe AFL-CIO - where "thE union" is an ExTErNal entity tO "The
UnIonizinG workerS"; and oFTen with The bureauCratic motIvAtioNS You Describe.
I sPecificaLly mentioNEd thaT'S nOt the KinD of uniOnIzaTion I Advise.

 talked to report the oppo site:
befo re th e p rol if erat ionof the interne t  cru nch time was way moreserio us sinc e  p atchi ng wasn ot a  vi ab le  op ti o n.  Nowa day s it'spretty muc h t he  norm
that g a me s have sig nif icant bugs f orthe fi rs t w e ek or  tw o and  still need t o
matureaf t er rel e ase. Th i s  c reat es greater room f o re rror and lesspressu re to f ixeve ry bug bef or e rel e ase.

~ ~ ~A p o cry p hon
That's fa ir, perhaps con dition shav e n't be en su bs t ant ially worse  tha n in
prev ious c o nsole g e neratio ns. Bu t i t s ound s  l ik e t he r e's so met h ing  driving  t he 
push  tow a r d s  uni oni zing /orga nizing, whate ver  iti s.And i t sou ndsli ke th e
gene ral p ub lic is more awa re i t being a  br ut alin dustr y .

~~~ 
pa nda man
Des pite th e  po pu l a r  b elief, game develo pe r s  a re prett y well pa id .  Not eve ry 
in dieo r  QA c ontr a ct or, of c ourse, bu tit's ari ch ind us try  wi th 6f igur e
sala ries and  prof i t sharing/roya l ty bonuses in su c c es s fulstu dios. So, o f
co u rse,  any un ion would  love  t o  r e present game develo pe rs for  a sh are of theirincome. Li k e w ise, you  don ' to ften hear of,say,restaurant workersneedi ng
union  represen t a tion bec aus e t hey  do n ot  make much mo n e y an drarelyint erest
u nio ns.  Th isis  what's d riving c al ls  f or  un ioniz a tion IMH O. 

A nd  Iagree with m anfre do,Ist a rte d in th e  i n d ustr yin  90s , a nd  crun ch w a s
a lreadythere. If  an y thin g,  t he situ ation improve din mid 00s ,wit h CA
s t r engtheni ng exempt employees cla s sificat ion  andlate r 00s wit h e a_spou sel awsuit . E.g.  mand at ory c runch e s  a rego ne, it use d tobe th at  peo ple wer e
forced to stay l a teand come in o n w eeke n d seve n  i f  th ey had n othing to do bu t
good luc kp ul ling thisn ow.  N owadays  people  most l y crunc h eitherbecause t he ir
b o n uscomes outof the g ame's sal e s (an d /o r met acr itic s co re,  like  in EA )  or 
beca use th ey  are p aid O T. 

~~~
ei npoklum
> So, of course , anyunion  wo uld lovetor epr esent gam e de velopers f ora s hare> o f  thei r in c om e
Y ou're  tal k ing about th e l a r ge , collabora t i o nis t uni ons we kno w in  the US -
e.g. th o se in the AFL- CIO- whe re" theun ion" is an ext ern al e ntity to  " the
unioniz ing work er s "; an d ofte n with  the bu r e au c raticmoti vat ions youdes cr i be.
I s pe ci f ically  men ti oned t hat'sn ot t h e  kind of unioniz ation I  advi s e.
 talked_to report_the opposite:
before the proliferation_of the_internet_crunch time_was_way more serious
since_patching was not_a viable option. Nowadays_it's pretty much_the_norm
that games have significant bugs for the first week or two and still need_to
mature_after release._This_creates_greater room for error and_less pressure to
fix every bug_before release.

~~~
Apocryphon
That's_fair, perhaps conditions haven't been substantially worse than_in
previous_console generations. But_it sounds like there's something driving the
push towards unionizing/organizing,_whatever it is. And it sounds_like the
general public_is_more_aware it being a_brutal industry.

~~~
pandaman
Despite the popular belief, game_developers are pretty well paid. Not_every
indie or QA contractor, of course, but_it's a rich industry with 6_figure
salaries and profit sharing/royalty bonuses_in successful_studios. So, of
course, any union_would love to_represent game_developers for a_share of their
income. Likewise, you don't_often hear of,_say, restaurant workers needing
union representation because_they_do not make_much_money_and rarely_interest
unions. This is_what's_driving calls_for_unionization IMHO.

And I agree with manfredo,_I_started in the industry in 90s, and_crunch was
already there. If_anything,_the situation improved in_mid 00s, with CA
strengthening exempt_employees classification and later 00s with_ea_spouse
lawsuit. E.g._mandatory crunches_are gone, it used to be that people were
forced to stay_late and come in on weekends_even if they had_nothing to_do_but
good luck pulling_this_now. Nowadays_people mostly crunch either because their
bonus comes_out of_the game's sales (and/or metacritic score,_like in EA) or
because_they_are paid OT.

~~~
einpoklum
> So, of course,_any union would love to represent_game developers for a share
>_of_their_income

You're talking about the large,_collaborationist unions we know in the_US -
e.g. those_in the AFL-CIO - where "the union"_is_an external entity to "the
unionizing workers";_and_often with the bureaucratic motivations you_describe.
I_specifically_mentioned that's not the kind_of unionization I advise.
