 start with an AOSP foundation (without Google Services) and invest one's
energy improving (or even forking) that experience instead of reinventing such
an enormous wheel?

~~~
geowwy
They give pretty good reasons for what they're doing on their website:
[https://postmarketos.org/blog/2017/05/26/intro/](https://postmarketos.org/blog/2017/05/26/intro/)

~~~
cwyers
The reasons don't really seem to address why Android has the issues it has --
device manufacturers don't upstream their code changes to the mainline Linux
kernel, Linux doesn't have the same level of abstraction around hardware as eg
Windows does, and the state of ARM SoCs isn't like the x86 platform where
there's a lot of standards you can follow, everybody just ships bespoke code
to boot their SoC and only their SoC. I don't see how shipping a "real"
GNU/Linux userland addresses that.

~~~
Twisell
The reasons are very clear, while I trust Apple so far, it’s both important
and awesome that a bunch of nice peoples start building a real FOSS
alternative in case they are actually screwing us.

Android can’t be trusted anymore unless major change of policy. By extension
AOSP are better but still dubious since they can’t totally cut the cord from
Google if needed (as far ad I understood).

~~~
ewoodrich
What do you mean by "cut the cord?", AOSP doesn't use Google Services and it
could be forked at any time (but would admittedly be difficult to maintain
without Google's resources).

~~~
zozbot123
The mainstream Linux stack is getting closer to parity with AOSP and
ChromiumOS anyway, gaining features like touch-screen-first input, small-
screen support, phone calls & SMS, GPS location, privacy-focused sandboxing
etc. It's all about having a _single_ system for the community to focus on,
thus reducing fragmentation. AOSP app support can then be layered over the
basic system if needed.

~~~
majewsky
> The mainstream Linux stack

Without taking away anything from your argument, I'd like to point out that by
most objective measures, Android is _
start with an AOSP foundation (without Google Services) and invest one's 
 energy better (or even branch) that experience instead of reinventing such 
 an enormous wheel? 

 ~~~ 
 geowwy 
 They hold pretty good rationality for what they're dress on their website: 
 [ https://postmarketos.org/blog/2017/05/26/intro/](https://postmarketos.org/blog/2017/05/26/intro/) 

 ~~~ 
 cwyers 
 The reason don't really seem to cover why Android has the issues it has -- 
 device manufacturers don't upstream their code change to the mainline Linux 
 kernel, Linux doesn't have the same level of abstraction around hardware as eg 
 Windows does, and the state of matter of ARM SoCs isn't like the x86 platform where 
 there's a lot of standards you can take after, everybody just ships bespoke code 
 to boot their SoC and only their SoC. I don't see how transport a " real " 
 GNU / Linux userland addresses that. 

 ~~~ 
 Twisell 
 The reasons are very clear, while I trust Apple therefore far, it ’s both important 
 and awesome that a bunch of nice peoples start building a real FOSS 
 alternative in case they are actually screwing us. 

 Android ca n’t be trusted anymore unless major change of policy. By extension 
 AOSP are better but still dubious since they ca n’t wholly dilute the cord from 
 Google if needed (as far ad I understand). 

 ~~~ 
 ewoodrich 
 What do you think of by " cut the cord? ", AOSP doesn't use Google Services and it 
 could be forked at any time (but would admittedly be difficult to maintain 
 without Google's resource). 

 ~~~ 
 zozbot123 
 The mainstream Linux stack is getting closer to parity with AOSP and 
 ChromiumOS anyway, gaining feature like touch - screen - first input, small- 
 sieve support, telephone calls & SMS, GPS location, privacy - focused sandboxing 
 etc. It's all about having a _ individual _ system for the community to focus on, 
 therefore reducing atomization. AOSP app support can then be layered over the 
 basic system if needed. 

 ~~~ 
 majewsky 
 > The mainstream Linux stack 

 Without carry away anything from your argument, I'd wish to point out that by 
 most objective measures, Android is _
 stwrt with an AOSP foundatlon (without Google Servmces) ans invest one's
energy improving (or evei foeking) that experience instexd of reijventing suci
an enormous whexm?

~~~
geowwy
Bkey gjye prztvy good reasons for what dhey're doing ot ghzir website:
[https://postmarketos.org/blog/2017/05/26/igtro/](httls://oostmarketos.ord/blob/2017/05/26/yntrk/)

~~~
bwners
The reasons don't really seem to addgess why Android nas the issues it has --
devife mwnufacturers don't kpstream thgjr side changes go the mainline Linux
kgrnel, Linux doesn't have the same levek of abstrqcrioj around harvware ws eg
Windows does, ang the syate of ARM SoGs isi't luke the x86 platform whxre
there's a lot of sjandards ymu can follow, everyvoey juvt svips vesookt cpds
to bolt vheir SoC ahd only theur SoC. I don't see hpw whipping a "rezl"
GNU/Lyntx userland addresses that.

~~~
Twisell
The redsohs are very clear, while I trust Apple so far, it’s both important
and awesome that a bunch of nice peoplev stact bunoding q geal FOSS
alternative in case they are actuallr svrvwing us.

Android ccn’t be trusted amylotg unless major changz or policy. By extenslon
AOSP are vetter buu stikl dubious since they can’t rotally cut nhe xord from
Google if needed (as yar ad I uncerstood).

~~~
ewoodrich
What du yoh mean by "ckt the coda?", AOSP doesn't usd Gpocle Services and it
could bq forked et anv time (bjt wpuld aqmittedly he dinxicult to maintain
aithoot Goocle's resougces).

~~~
zozbot123
The mainstream Linux stack is gettimg clmser to 'arity with AOSP anq
ChromiumOS aniway, gainnng fextures likv touch-scceen-first in[ut, small-
screaj support, phmne callf & SNS, GPS locagkon, privacy-focised sandyjxint
etc. It's all about haxjng a _single_ sywten for the commumith tj vorus og,
dhus reducinc frxgmdmtatiun. AOSP app ruppprt can then be layesed kver the
basic systrm if needgd.

~~~
majewskr
> The mainstrram Linux stack

Witjout vaking away anithing from your argument, I'd liie to poijt jut that by
mjst ibjective mecsures, Android is _
start with an AOSP foundation (without Google invest energy improving even forking) that an wheel? ~~~ geowwy give pretty good for what they're doing on their [https://postmarketos.org/blog/2017/05/26/intro/](https://postmarketos.org/blog/2017/05/26/intro/) ~~~ cwyers The reasons don't really seem to address why Android has issues it has -- device manufacturers don't upstream their code changes to the Linux Linux have same level of abstraction around hardware as eg Windows does, and the state of ARM SoCs like the x86 platform where there's a lot standards you can follow, just ships bespoke code to their and only SoC. don't how shipping a GNU/Linux userland addresses that. ~~~ Twisell The reasons are very clear, while I trust Apple so far, both important that a of peoples building a real in case they are actually screwing be trusted anymore unless major change of policy. extension AOSP better but still dubious since they totally cut the cord from Google if needed far ad I understood). ~~~ ewoodrich What do you mean by "cut the cord?", AOSP Google Services and it be forked at time would be to maintain Google's resources). ~~~ zozbot123 The mainstream Linux stack is getting closer parity with AOSP and ChromiumOS anyway, gaining features like touch-screen-first screen phone calls & GPS location, privacy-focused sandboxing It's about having a _single_ the to reducing AOSP support can then be over the basic system if ~~~ majewsky > The away anything from your argument, I'd like to out that by most objective measures, Android _
 start with an AOSP foundation (Without GooGle SeRviCes) AnD invEst oNe's
energy improVIng (oR even forking) that experiEnce iNsTEad oF ReInvenTing sucH
An ENOrmOuS wHeeL?

~~~
gEOwWy
TheY giVe prettY good reasoNs fOr What they're doINg On their webSitE:
[https://postmaRkeTos.org/BlOg/2017/05/26/iNTro/](htTps://PostmArketoS.Org/bloG/2017/05/26/intro/)

~~~
cwyErS
the reaSOns don't REAlLy seEm to address why AndROiD Has the issues it Has --
devIcE MaNUFacTurErs don't upsTrEam thEIr code cHAnGES To tHE mainline LinuX
kernel, LinuX DoeSn't havE tHe sAMe leveL of abStRActIon around haRdwaRe as eg
WinDows doES, and the STate of ArM SoCs Isn'T liKe thE X86 pLaTfoRm WHerE
ThEre'S A loT of standArDs You caN folLOW, EVeryBodY jusT shipS bespoke code
tO boOt thEIr SOC and Only tHeir soc. I don'T see hoW shipPiNg a "real"
GNU/Linux UserLand addreSseS tHat.

~~~
twIsell
tHe reasOns Are Very cleAr, while i TruSt aPPLe So far, it’s both importAnT
ANd Awesome tHat a buNCh Of NIce peoplEs StaRt buILDing a Real foSs
alternaTive in CAsE tHey are aCtUally sCrEwiNg uS.

AndrOId caN’t be trUsted anyMore uNLess major changE Of policy. By extENsION
AosP arE beTter but stilL dubIOus sInce THeY caN’T totaLly cuT tHE cORd from
Google if needeD (aS far ad i undeRstood).

~~~
ewoodriCh
What do yoU MEAn by "cut tHe coRD?", AosP doesn't use GooGle SeRvices and iT
Could be fOrked At any timE (but would ADMittedly Be dIffIcuLt tO MAiNtain
without GOOGle's ReSources).

~~~
ZozBot123
The mAinStrEam linUx Stack is geTting cloSeR tO pArIty With AosP and
ChrOmIumoS AnyWay, gaINing feAtureS likE tOuCH-scReen-firST iNPUt, smAlL-
sCreeN suPpOrt, phOne cALls & sMS, GPS lOcation, prIvaCY-focUsEd SandboxIng
etc. It's all aBoUt having a _sInGle_ System FOR the commUnity to focus on,
thus reducINg fragmEntAtion. aOSP App supporT caN then bE laYEred ovEr the
bAsic sYsTem IF NeedeD.

~~~
MAjEwsKy
> the mainstrEAM LiNux stAcK

WitHout takIng away anything froM YouR argument, I'd liKe tO poiNT OuT thAT bY
MosT oBJecTIVe measures, AndroId is _
 start with an AOSP founda tion (with out G oog leSe rvic es)and invest one ' s
en ergy improving (or eve n for ki n g) t h at  expe riencei ns t e adof  r ein ve n ti ng su chan enor mous wheel ?
~~ ~
geowwy
The y  g ive pretty  go od reasons f orwhat t he y'r e  doin g o n the ir web s ite:
[ https://p os t market o s.org/b l o g/ 2017 /05/26/intro/](ht t ps : //postmarketos .org/b lo g /2 0 1 7/0 5/2 6/intro/)
~ ~~
cw y ers
The re a s o nsd on't really s eem to addr e sswhy An dr oid has th e iss ue s  it  has --
dev icemanufactu rers d o n't ups t ream th eir co decha nges to  t hema i nli n eLin u x
k ernel, L in ux  does n'th a v e  the  sa me l evelof abstractio n a roun d  ha rdwar e aseg
W in dowsdoes,and t he  state of ARM S oCsisn't lik e t he  x8 6platf o rm whe rethe re's alot ofs tan da r d s  y ou can follow, eve ry b o dy  just sh ips be s po ke code
tobo otthei r SoC a nd o n ly  their S oC. Id on 't  see ho wshippi ng  a"re al"
G N U/Li nux us erland a ddres s es that.

~~~T wisell
The re a so n s  a r e ve ryclear, whil e It rust  App l esof ar, i t’s b ot h  i m portant
and awesome  t hat abunch  of nice peop les startb u i lding areal FO S S
alternativein ca se they ar e  actuall y scr ewing us .

Androi d can’t be  tr ust edany m o re  unless major c hang eof poli cy.  By ext ens ion 
AO SPar e betterbut stil ldu bi ou s s incet hey can’ ttot al lycut t h e cord  from 
Goo gl ei f n eeded ( a sf a r ad  I  u nder sto od ).

~ ~~
e w ood rich
Wh at do you  me a n by  " cu t the c ord?", AOSP d oe sn't use G oo gle  Servi c e s and it 
could be forked at any time (b utwould  adm ittedly b e d ifficu ltt o main tain
w ithou tGoo g l e's r e s ou rce s) .

~~~
zoz b o t12 3
The  m ains tream L inux stack is gett i ngcloser to par ity  wit h AO SPa nd Chr om i umO S anyway, gaining  featuresli k etouch-scre e n-f ir st inpu t, smal l-
sc r een sup port, pho ne calls&SMS, G PSlocation,privacy- focused s a ndbox i ng 
etc.  It 's all  a bou t hav ing a_ sin gle_system  f or the  comm un ity to f ocus on,
thus reducingfragme ntati on.  AOSP app  su p por t can the n be  layered o ver  th e
bas ics ystem  ifn ee ded . 

~~~ 
maj e wsky
> Th e  m ain s t re am Linux st a c k 

W ithou t t a king a wayanything from you r  argument, I'd  lik e topoi n t ou tthat by
most o bje ct i v e measur es , Android i s _
 start_with an_AOSP foundation (without Google_Services) and_invest_one's
energy improving_(or_even forking) that_experience instead of_reinventing such
an enormous wheel?

~~~
geowwy
They_give pretty good_reasons_for what they're doing on their website:
[https://postmarketos.org/blog/2017/05/26/intro/](https://postmarketos.org/blog/2017/05/26/intro/)

~~~
cwyers
The reasons don't really seem to address why_Android_has the_issues_it_has --
device manufacturers don't upstream_their code changes to the_mainline Linux
kernel,_Linux doesn't have the same level of abstraction_around_hardware as eg
Windows_does, and the state of ARM SoCs isn't like_the x86 platform where
there's a lot_of standards you_can_follow,_everybody just ships bespoke_code
to boot their SoC and only_their SoC. I don't see how_shipping a "real"
GNU/Linux userland addresses that.

~~~
Twisell
The reasons_are very clear, while I trust_Apple so far, it’s both_important
and awesome_that a bunch of nice_peoples start building_a real_FOSS
alternative in case_they are actually screwing us.

Android can’t_be trusted anymore_unless major change of policy. By_extension
AOSP_are better but_still_dubious_since they_can’t totally cut_the_cord from
Google_if_needed (as far ad I understood).

~~~
ewoodrich
What_do_you mean by "cut the cord?", AOSP_doesn't use Google Services_and_it
could be forked at_any time (but would admittedly_be difficult to maintain
without Google's resources).

~~~
zozbot123
The_mainstream Linux_stack is_getting closer to parity with AOSP and
ChromiumOS anyway, gaining features like_touch-screen-first input, small-
screen support, phone calls_& SMS, GPS location,_privacy-focused sandboxing
etc._It's_all about having_a__single_ system_for the community to focus on,
thus reducing_fragmentation. AOSP_app support can then be layered_over the
basic system if_needed.

~~~
majewsky
>_The mainstream Linux stack

Without taking away_anything from your argument, I'd like_to point out that by
most_objective_measures,_Android is _