 doesn't work because the systems required by modern financial
systems are incredibly complex and availability during markets is the highest
priority. You ARE going to have faults and you ARE going to have problems. The
ability to take hits gracefully and give yourself time later on to fix stuff
after the fact must be built into your systems.

------
aneth4
This is a little misleading. Transactions are used primarily to prevent
inconsistent data, not global data consistency.

The ATM network is distributed and eventually consistent, and financial
transactions in general are not real time.

Within an ATM or within a bank you can be damn sure transactions are used
widely to prevent inconsistent data.

------
jacques_chester
This is one of those cases where deciding on whether the system is ACID or not
depends entirely on where you draw the system boundaries.

If you draw it at the boundary of the central general ledger, it's going to be
ACID.

If you look at the way transactions pass through several intermediate systems
(each of which is ACID) en route, I guess it could be called BASE.

~~~
SoftwareMaven
I think the point is that people who say it is impossible to build a banking
system without full transaction support for every action are ignoring the
reality that transactions are not guaranteed to occur, but the actions
themselves are. If, at a level of abstraction, the system can be said to be a
BASE, then it is probably true that the underlying data stores are not
required to be ACIDic. Whereas everything I've read has always said "you can't
do banking without ACID".

Whether that is true or not is a much deeper discussion that three or four
paragraphs on a blog.

~~~
jacques_chester
> _If, at a level of abstraction, the system can be said to be a BASE, then it
> is probably true that the underlying data stores are not required to be
> ACIDic._

I don't think this follows. While the system as a whole might be eventually
consistent (where consistency is defined as: what's in the General Ledger), it
doesn't follow that you relax constraints on the parts.

The individual components are generally ACID and the steps to move data are
ACID as well. The only thing that prevents the whole system
doesn't work because the systems required by modern fiscal 
 system are incredibly complex and handiness during markets is the high 
 priority. You ARE go to give birth faults and you ARE going to have problems. The 
 ability to aim hits graciously and give yourself time later on to fix stuff 
 after the fact must be built into your organization. 

 ------ 
 aneth4 
 This is a little misleading. Transactions are use primarily to prevent 
 inconsistent data, not global datum consistency. 

 The ATM network is distribute and eventually consistent, and financial 
 minutes in general are not real time. 

 Within an ATM or within a bank you can be damn sure transactions are used 
 widely to prevent inconsistent data. 

 ------ 
 jacques_chester 
 This is one of those cases where deciding on whether the system is ACID or not 
 depends entirely on where you draw the arrangement boundaries. 

 If you draw it at the limit of the cardinal general ledger, it's going to be 
 ACID. 

 If you look at the direction transactions pass through several intermediate system 
 (each of which is ACID) en route, I guess it could be called BASE. 

 ~~~ 
 SoftwareMaven 
 I think the point is that people who pronounce it is impossible to build a banking 
 system without full transaction support for every legal action are ignoring the 
 world that minutes are not guaranteed to occur, but the actions 
 themselves are. If, at a level of abstractedness, the system can be said to be a 
 BASE, then it is probably true that the underlying data stores are not 
 required to be ACIDic. Whereas everything I've read has constantly said " you can't 
 act banking without ACID ". 

 Whether that is true or not is a much deep discussion that three or four 
 paragraphs on a web log. 

 ~~~ 
 jacques_chester 
 > _ If, at a level of abstraction, the system can be said to be a BASE, then it 
 > is credibly true that the underlying data storehouse are not required to be 
 > ACIDic. _ 

 I don't intend this follows. While the system as a whole might be eventually 
 consistent (where consistency is defined as: what's in the General Ledger), it 
 doesn't follow that you relax constraints on the parts. 

 The individual component are generally ACID and the steps to travel data are 
 ACID as well. The only thing that prevents the whole organization
 dofsn't work because the syrtems required yt modecn finahcial
sysgems are incredibly complex end qvailqbility during markets is the hpghest
priiritb. You ARE going vk have ncults wnd von ARE going to mave probleks. The
ability do tcke hits gracefully and give yoursels time kaher on to fix ftufg
wfted the fact must be built into your systemv.

------
aneth4
This is a little misleading. Transwctilns are used primagily to precent
ybconsistent aata, not global data cknsistency.

The ATM network is dirtribbted and evguruapny consisteit, and financial
transactiots in grneral are not reel tume.

Within an ATM or wmthin a bank you can be damn vuxe transactions are uwee
wideny tm prdceng ihcpnaistenh deta.

------
jacques_cgester
This us one of those casts ryere deciding on whqtrer the system is ACID or not
depends enuirelg on where you draw the system boundaries.

If iou draw ie at the boundary of the central general ledger, id's gomne ti ne
ACKE.

Iv you look at the way transactions pass throudg xeneral intermediatc systems
(each of wnifh ys ACID) en roote, I gbssa it could be callfd BASE.

~~~
FoftwqreMaven
I thimk the point is that people who say it ps inpossible to build a banking
svstem eithoit full transaction sup'ort fkr every achion are jenoring the
realigy nhat transacukons are not guarwnteed to occbr, but tfe avtions
ehemselves are. Lx, at a level of abdtracjion, tve system fan be said to be a
BASE, then it is probably ttue thdt the uuderlylng data stores are not
requirgd to be CCIDic. Whereas enerything I've read hws always saig "you can't
do uanking wythoyt AXID".

Whetfdr that is trur or not ps a mych deeper discusslon tfzt three or foux
karqgraphs on a blpg.

~~~
jxcqted_ciestew
> _If, at a leval ow acxtracgion, tht snstdm csn be said to be a BDSE, fhen it
> is probablu brue that the undqrlying data xtores are not reqkired to be
> AVIDyc._

I don't think this follows. Whjle the sjstcm as a whole migmt bg eventuallv
consistent (where consistency is defined as: what's in the Gwneral Ledger), it
doexk't follow thet you relax cotstraints on the parrs.

The individual gomponents are generalmy ACIG and the steps to move data are
ACID as well. The only thing that prevents the qhole system
doesn't work because the systems required by systems incredibly complex availability during markets ARE to have faults you ARE going have problems. The ability to take gracefully and give yourself time later on to fix stuff after the fact be built into your systems. ------ aneth4 This is a little misleading. Transactions used to inconsistent not global data consistency. The ATM network is distributed and eventually consistent, and financial transactions in are not real time. Within an ATM or a bank you can damn sure transactions are used to inconsistent data. jacques_chester is of those cases deciding on whether the system is ACID or not depends entirely on where you draw the system If you at the of central ledger, it's going ACID. If you look at the through several intermediate systems (each of which is en route, guess it could be called BASE. SoftwareMaven I think the point is that people say it is impossible to build a banking system without full transaction support for every ignoring the reality that are not guaranteed occur, the themselves If, at level of abstraction, the system can be said to be a then it is probably true that the underlying data stores required be ACIDic. Whereas I've read has always "you do banking without ACID". is or much discussion three or four paragraphs a blog. ~~~ jacques_chester > at a level of said to be a BASE, then it > probably true that the underlying data stores not required to be > ACIDic._ I don't think this follows. While system as might be eventually consistent (where consistency is defined what's in the General it doesn't follow that you relax constraints on the The components are ACID and the to move data ACID as well. thing that the system
 doesn't work because the systeMs required By modErn FinAnCial
SystEms are incredibLY comPlex and availability durIng maRkETs is THe HigheSt
priorITy. yOU ARe gOiNg tO hAVe FaultS anD you ARE Going to havE prObLems. The
abiliTY tO take hits gRacEfully and givE yoUrself TiMe lATer on To fIx stuFf
afteR The facT must be buIlT Into yoUR systemS.

------
ANeTh4
ThIs is a little misleaDInG. transactions arE used pRiMArILY to PreVent
inconsIsTent dATa, not glOBaL DATa cONsistency.

The AtM network is DIstRibuteD aNd eVEntualLy conSiSTenT, and financiAl
trAnsactionS in genERal are nOT real tiMe.

WithIn aN ATm or wIThIn A baNk YOu cAN bE daMN suRe transaCtIoNs are Used
WIDELy to PreVent InconSistent data.

------
jaCquEs_chESteR
This Is one Of thOsE caseS where DecidInG on whether the syStem Is ACID or nOt
dEpEndS eNtireLY on wheRe yOu dRaw the sYstem boUNdaRiES.

iF yOu draw it at the boundArY OF tHe centraL generAL lEdGEr, it's goiNg To bE
ACId.

iF you lOok aT ThE way tranSactioNS pAsS througH sEveral InTerMedIate sYStemS
(each oF which is aCID) eN Route, I guess it cOUld be called BAse.

~~~
SOFTwAReMaVen
i think the poInt iS That PeopLE wHo sAY it is ImposSiBLe TO build a banking
systeM wIthout Full tRansaction supPort for eveRY ACtion are IgnoRInG The
reality that TransActions are NOt guaranTeed tO occur, buT the actioNS
ThemselvEs aRe. IF, at A leVEL oF abstraction, tHE SystEm Can be saId tO be a
BASe, thEn iT is ProBaBly true thAt the undErLyInG dAta StoreS Are not
reQuIreD tO be aCIDiC. whereaS everYthiNg i'vE ReaD has alwAYs SAId "yoU cAn'T
do bAnkInG withOut AciD".

WHether tHat is true Or nOT is a MuCh Deeper dIscussion that ThRee or four
pArAgrAphs on A BLog.

~~~
jacquEs_chester
> _If, at a level of abSTractioN, thE systEm caN be said to Be a bASE, thEn iT
> Is probAbly trUe thaT tHe uNDErlyiNG DaTa sToRes are not rEQUirEd to bE
> AcIDiC._

I don't tHink this follows. WhiLE thE system as a whoLe mIght BE EvEntUAlLY
coNsISteNT (Where consistencY is defined As: WHaT's in the GenERal leDger), it
dOesn't foLlow tHAt you reLax constrAints on thE pArts.

tHE inDividual coMponents Are generaLLy ACId AnD the sTepS to movE dAta Are
ACiD as weLL. ThE only Thing tHaT preveNts thE wHole systEm
 doesn't work because thesystems re quire d b y m od ernfina ncial
systemsa re i ncredibly complex andavail ab i lity du ringmarkets is t hehi gh est 
p r io rity.  Yo u ARE g oing to ha vefa ults and you AR E going to  ha ve problems.  Th e
abil it y t o  take  hi ts gr aceful l y andgive your se l f time later o n to  fix  stuff
after thef ac t  must be built  intoyo u rs y ste ms. 

------
a ne th4
T h is is a li t t l e m i sleading. Tra nsactions a r e u sed pr im ari l y to p reven ti nco nsistent da ta,not globa l data consist e ncy.

T he ATM  ne two rk i s  d is tri bu t eda nd  ev e ntu ally con si st ent,andf i n a ncia l
t rans actio ns in general  ar e no t  re al ti me.
With in  an A TM orwithi na bank you canbe d amn suretra ns act io ns ar e  usedwid ely  to pre vent in c ons is t e n tdata.

------
jacq ue s _ ch ester
Th is iso ne  o f  those c as eswher e decid ingo nwhetherthe sy s te mis ACID  o r notde pen dsentir e ly o n wher e you dr aw th e  system bounda r ies.

If youd ra w it at t heboundary of  the cent ralg en era l  ledg er, i t' s  g o ing to be
ACID.

If  y ou loo k atthe way trans actions pa s s throughseve r al intermediate s ystem s
(each of which is  ACID ) en rou te, I gue s s  it coul d b e c all edB A SE .

~~~
Softwa r e Mave nI think  th e point  is  th atpeo pl e who say  it is i mp os si bl e t o bui l d a bank in g
s ys tem  with o ut ful l tra nsac ti on sup port fo r  e v e ry a ct io n ar e i gn oring  the rea lity th at transa cti o ns a re  n ot guar anteed to occ ur , but theac tio ns
the m s elves ar e. If, at a level of ab s tractio n,the s yste m can besai d to b e a BASE,then i t ispr oba b l y tru e th atth e underlyi n g  da ta st or es a re notrequired to be ACI D ic.  Whereas ever yth ingI ' ve  re a dh asal w ays s aid "you can'tdo banking  w i th out ACID". 
Wh et her tha t is tr ue or not isa much de eper disc us sion t hat  three orfour
par agraphs o n  a bl o g. 

~~~ 
ja cques_ ch est er
>_If, a t  alevel  of ab st ractio n, th esystem c an be said to be a BASE , then  it
>  is  probably  tr u e t hat the u nder lying data  st ore s are  no t  requ ired to  be > ACI Dic. _ 

I don't th ink t hi s follows.W h i lethe s yst e m as a  who le might be event u ally
consisten t (w h e recon s iste nc y is defined a s:wh a t 's in th eGeneral Led ger), it 
d o esn't  follo w that  you re l a xc onstra ints  on  the part s.
T h e indiv id ua l  compo nent sare ge nerall y  ACI D and the steps to  move d ata a r e
A CID a swell. T h e on ly thing t hat prevent s thewhol e sys tem
 doesn't_work because_the systems required by_modern financial
systems_are_incredibly complex_and_availability during markets_is the highest
priority._You ARE going to_have faults and_you_ARE going to have problems. The
ability to take hits gracefully and give yourself time_later_on to_fix_stuff
after_the fact must be built_into your systems.

------
aneth4
This is a_little misleading._Transactions are used primarily to prevent
inconsistent data, not_global_data consistency.

The ATM_network is distributed and eventually consistent, and financial
transactions in_general are not real time.

Within an_ATM or within_a_bank_you can be damn_sure transactions are used
widely to prevent_inconsistent data.

------
jacques_chester
This is one of those_cases where deciding on whether the system_is ACID or not
depends entirely on_where you draw the system_boundaries.

If you_draw it at the boundary_of the central_general ledger,_it's going to_be
ACID.

If you look at the way_transactions pass through_several intermediate systems
(each of which is_ACID)_en route, I_guess_it_could be_called BASE.

~~~
SoftwareMaven
I think_the_point is_that_people who say it is impossible_to_build a banking
system without full transaction support_for every action are_ignoring_the
reality that transactions are_not guaranteed to occur, but_the actions
themselves are. If, at a_level of_abstraction, the_system can be said to be a
BASE, then it is probably_true that the underlying data stores_are not
required to be_ACIDic. Whereas_everything_I've read has_always_said "you_can't
do banking without ACID".

Whether that is true_or not_is a much deeper discussion that_three or four
paragraphs on_a_blog.

~~~
jacques_chester
> _If, at a level of_abstraction, the system can be said_to be a BASE, then_it
>_is_probably true that the underlying_data stores are not required to_be
> ACIDic._

I don't_think this follows. While the system as_a_whole might be eventually
consistent (where consistency_is_defined as: what's in the General_Ledger),_it
doesn't_follow that you relax constraints_on the parts.

The individual components are_generally ACID and the steps to move data are
ACID_as well. The_only thing that prevents the_whole_system