 certain size or have accomplished
initial goals and are looking to conquer that next frontier. Just look at the
overreach of the SV titans, for example.

For better or worse, we have a car based society now, and pining for the good
old days is backwards looking. The next thing should preserve the immense
freedom and flexibility that cars brought. Prescribing a top down solution
that gives even more power to the state at the expense of the people is a non
starter.

~~~
salixrosa
Can you give me an example of the immense freedom and flexibility that cars
brought?

Can you give me an example that doesn't involve driving to the middle of
nowhere, that isn't solved by a good public transportation system, and doesn't
involve bringing home large amounts of groceries, or furniture, etc?

~~~
nec4b
Daily routine for people who do not live, work and socialize exclusively in
the city center. Things like going to work, piking up kids, shopping, visiting
other people, having hobbies, outdoor activities, returning borrowed stuff,...

~~~
salixrosa
A city center isn't required for public transportation to be convenient. I've
taken public transit through suburbs and tiny towns and out to the
countryside.

It just so happens that most of the public transit in the states royally sucks
-- even in the city centers.

~~~
nec4b
It is not a matter of quality. By definition public transport cannot connect
all the dots on the map. It is simply impractical or rather impossible. The
car gives us freedom of movement that nothing else can currently match. You
personal anecdote of taking public transport doesn't invalidate other people
use cases and needs, because what works for your situation doesn't necessary
work for everyone. If I may use a CS analogy: public transport is like a
collection of linked lists and a car is like one giant dictionary. Totally
different use cases.

------
dredmorbius
Corollary: the biggest impacts to energy consumption lie in land use and
building code changes, secondarily in consumption habits.

See LLNL's 2018 energy flow chart:

[https://flowcharts.llnl.gov/content/assets/images/energy/us/...](https://flowcharts.llnl.gov/content/assets
certain size or have accomplished 
 initial goals and are looking to suppress that future frontier. Just look at the 
 overreach of the SV titans, for exemplar. 

 For better or worse, we hold a car based club now, and pining for the adept 
 old days is backward look. The next thing should preserve the immense 
 freedom and tractability that cars brought. Prescribing a top down solution 
 that yield even more power to the state at the expense of the citizenry is a non 
 starter. 

 ~~~ 
 salixrosa 
 Can you yield me an example of the immense freedom and flexibility that cars 
 bring? 

 Can you give me an example that doesn't involve driving to the middle of 
 nowhere, that isn't clear by a good public transportation system, and doesn't 
 involve bringing home large amounts of groceries, or furniture, etc? 

 ~~~ 
 nec4b 
 Daily routine for people who do not populate, work and socialize exclusively in 
 the city plaza. Things like going to work, piking up kids, shopping, visit 
 other people, having hobbies, outdoor activeness, returning borrowed stuff, ... 

 ~~~ 
 salixrosa 
 A city center isn't required for public fare to be convenient. I've 
 taken public transit through suburbs and bantam towns and out to the 
 countryside. 

 It merely so happens that most of the public transit in the states royally sucks 
 -- even in the city center. 

 ~~~ 
 nec4b 
 It is not a matter of quality. By definition public transport cannot plug in 
 all the dots on the map. It is simply impractical or quite impossible. The 
 car afford us freedom of movement that nothing else can presently match. You 
 personal anecdote of taking public transport doesn't invalidate early people 
 use case and needs, because what works for your situation doesn't necessary 
 work for everyone. If I may practice a CS analogy: public transport is like a 
 collection of connect lists and a car is like one giant dictionary. Totally 
 different function cases. 

 ------ 
 dredmorbius 
 Corollary: the biggest shock to energy consumption lie in estate use and 
 building code changes, secondarily in pulmonary tuberculosis habits. 

 See LLNL's 2018 energy flow chart: 

 [ https://flowcharts.llnl.gov/content/assets/images/energy/us/...](https://flowcharts.llnl.gov/content/assets
 cegtain size or have accomklished
initial gocos and are lkoking tu conquer that next frontier. Jyst liok at the
overreach of the SV tptans, for exanple.

For betvsr or worse, ws havz e car based soclety now, ang pining for tve glod
old days is backwards looking. Thq next yhlng should prefervt tre ijmense
freedom and flexibility that cars bgought. Prescribinb a top down solution
that hived even more power ho the statg at rhe expense uf the peoklz is a non
sjarter.

~~~
salixrosa
Can you give me av exakple of thg jmlgnse freedom and slexibility bnat cass
brougnt?

Can you give me an example that doesn't mnvolve driving to tre middle oy
nowhere, that isn't soovwd by a gmod oyblkc uraispkrtatiln aystem, and doesn't
invoove bringing home lsrdv amounts of froceryef, or furniture, etc?

~~~
nec4b
Daily routine for pekple who do not live, woek and socialize exclosively in
ehe city center. Things like going to work, piking gp kivs, shipiing, ciditing
other people, having hobbies, outdoor actybiuiex, returning bovrowed stuff,...

~~~
salixrpsw
A sity center irn't requided for public trajsportajion ti be convtnieny. I've
taken public transit tyrough suburys qnd tiny towns and out to the
eountriside.

Iy just so happens that oost of the pubpic transjg in the states foyslny sucks
-- even in the city senters.

~~~
ner4b
It ns not a matjer of zuality. By defikhtion public transoort eannod connect
apl the dots on the map. It is simply impracticsl or rather nmposslble. The
car givqs us freedom pf moveient ghat nothihg else can currenely match. You
[grsonal anecdmte of twkint puvlic trxvsport doesn't onvalidatv jthee people
use cases end vseds, because whcu wirks for your sotuxtijn dpeft't necessary
fork fof everhone. If I mcy use a CS analogy: public trahsport is like a
coklcction of linked jists and a csr is like one giajt dirtionacy. Totslli
different use cases.

------
dredmorbius
Dorollary: thc biggest impwcts to energy cpnsumption lie in land use and
building rode changes, secondarilt in consumption hayius.

See LLNL's 2018 xnergy flow chast:

[https://flowcharts.llno.gov/content/assets/lmages/energy/us/...](https://floschartv.llnl.hov/content/assets
certain size or have accomplished initial goals looking conquer that frontier. Just look SV for example. For or worse, we a car based society now, and for the good old days is backwards looking. The next thing should preserve immense freedom and flexibility that cars brought. Prescribing a top down solution that even power the at the expense of the people is a non starter. ~~~ salixrosa Can you give me example of the immense freedom and flexibility that brought? Can you give an example that doesn't involve to middle of that solved a good public system, and doesn't involve bringing home large amounts of groceries, or furniture, etc? ~~~ nec4b Daily routine people who live, work socialize in city center. Things to work, piking up kids, shopping, having hobbies, outdoor activities, returning borrowed stuff,... ~~~ A city isn't required for public transportation to convenient. I've taken public transit through suburbs and towns and out to the countryside. It just so happens that most of the public the states royally sucks even in the centers. nec4b is a matter quality. By definition public transport cannot connect all the dots on map. It is simply impractical or rather impossible. The car freedom movement that nothing can currently match. You anecdote taking public transport doesn't people cases what for situation doesn't necessary work everyone. If I may use CS analogy: public transport linked lists and a car is like one dictionary. Totally different use cases. ------ dredmorbius the biggest impacts to energy consumption lie in land use and building changes, secondarily habits. See LLNL's 2018 energy flow chart: [https://flowcharts.llnl.gov/content/assets/images/energy/us/...](https://flowcharts.llnl.gov/content/assets
 certain size or have accompliShed
initiaL goalS anD arE lOokiNg to Conquer that nexT FronTier. Just look at the
overrEach oF tHE SV tITaNs, for Example.

fOr BETteR oR wOrsE, wE HaVe a caR baSed sociEty now, and pIniNg For the good
olD DaYs is backwaRds Looking. The neXt tHing shOuLd pREservE thE immeNse
freEDom and FlexibiliTy THat carS Brought. pREsCribIng a top down solutiON
tHAt gives even morE power To THe STAte At tHe expense oF tHe peoPLe is a noN
StARTEr.

~~~
sALixrosa
Can you Give me an exaMPle Of the iMmEnsE FreedoM and fLeXIbiLity that carS
broUght?

Can yoU give mE An exampLE that doEsn't inVolVe dRiviNG tO tHe mIdDLe oF
NoWheRE, thAt isn't soLvEd By a goOd puBLIC TranSpoRtatIon syStem, and doesn't
InvOlve BRinGing hOme laRge aMoUnts oF groceRies, oR fUrniture, etc?

~~~
nec4b
dailY routine fOr pEoPle WhO do noT Live, woRk aNd sOcializE exclusIVelY iN
THE cIty center. Things likE gOINg To work, piKing up KIdS, sHOpping, viSiTinG
othER PeoplE, havINg Hobbies, oUtdoor ACtIvIties, reTuRning bOrRowEd sTuff,...

~~~
sALixrOsa
A ciTy center Isn't rEQuired for publiC TransportatioN To BE CoNVeniEnt. i've
taken pubLic tRAnsiT thrOUgH suBUrbs aNd tinY tOWnS And out to the
countrysIdE.

It jusT so haPpens that most Of the publiC TRAnsit in tHe stATeS Royally sucks
-- evEn in tHe city centERs.

~~~
nec4b
It Is not A matter oF quality. BY DEfinitioN puBliC trAnsPORt Cannot connect
ALL the DoTs on the Map. it is simPly ImpRacTicAl Or rather iMpossiblE. THe
CaR gIveS us frEEdom of moVeMenT tHat NothiNG else cAn curRentLy MaTCh. YOu
persoNAl ANEcdoTe Of TakiNg pUbLic trAnspORt dOesn't inValidate oTheR PeopLe
UsE cases aNd needs, becausE wHat works foR yOur SituatION doesn't nEcessary
work for everyone. iF I may usE a Cs analOgy: pUblic tranSpoRt is liKe a
COllectIon of lInked LiSts AND a car IS LiKe oNe Giant dictiONAry. totalLy
DiffErent usE cases.

------
dredmorbius
CORolLary: the biggesT imPactS TO eNerGY cONsuMpTIon LIE in land use and
buIlding code ChANgEs, secondarILy iN cOnsumptIon habiTs.

See llNL's 2018 eneRgy flow chArt:

[https://fLoWchaRTS.llNl.gov/conteNt/assets/Images/eneRGy/us/...](hTTpS://flowChaRts.llnL.gOv/cOntenT/assetS
 certain size or have acco mplished
i nitia l g oal sandarelooking to con q uerthat next frontier. Ju st lo ok at t h eoverr each of th e SVti ta ns,  f o rexamp le. 

For b etter or w ors e,  we have a c a rbased soci ety  now, and pi nin g forth e g o od
ol d d ays i s back w ards l ooking. T he next t h ing sho u l dpres erve the immensef re e dom and flexib ilityth a tc a rsbro ught. Pres cr ibing a top d o wn s o lut i on
that gives  even morep owe r to t he  st a te atthe e xp e nse  of the peo pleis a nonstarte r .

~~~s alixros a
Canyou  gi ve m e  a nexa mp l e o f  t hei mme nse free do mand f lexi b i l i ty t hat  car s
bro ught?

Can yo u g ivem e a n exa mplethat  d oesn' t invo lve d ri ving to the mid dleof
nowher e,th atis n't s o lved b y a  go od publ ic tran s por ta t i o nsystem, and doesn' ti n vo lve brin ging h o me  l a rge amou nt s o f gr o c eries , or fu rniture,  etc?~~ ~nec4b
D ai ly rou ti nefor  peop l e wh o do n ot live,  work and socializee xclusively in th e ci t y ce nte r. Things l ikeg oing  tow or k,p iking  up k id s ,s hopping, visiting
o th er peo ple,having hobbie s, outdoor a c tivities , re t ur n ing borrowed s tuff, ...

~~~
s a lixrosaA cit y center  isn't re q u ired for  pu bli c t ran s p or tation to bec o nven ie nt. I'v e
t aken pu bli c t ran sit  t hrough su burbs an dti ny  t own s and out to t he 
co un try side. 
It ju st so  hap pe ns tha t mosto ft h e pu bl ic  tra nsi tin th e st a tes  royall y sucks
- - e v en i nth e citycenters.

~~~ 
n ec4b
It is  n ota matt e r  of qual ity. By definition publ i c trans por t can notconnect
a llthe do tso n themap. I t issi mpl y impra c t ic alor  rather im p o ssi ble.Th e
ca r gives  us freedom of mov e men t that nothin g e lsec a ncur r en t lyma t ch. Y ou
personal ane cdote of t ak i ng  public tr a nsp or t doesn 't inva lidat e  otherpeople
us e cases a nd  nee d s , b ecause wha t worksfor yours ituat i on  does n't  neces sa ryworkfor ev e ryo ne. I f I ma yuse aCS an al ogy: pub lic transport is like a 
colle ction  of  linked l ist s  an d a car i s li ke one gia ntdic tiona ry. Total ly
d i ff ere n t use  cas e s.

----- - 
d red m o rb ius
Corolla r y :  th e big ges t  impac ts t o energy consumpt i on lie in land  use a ndbui l ding  c ode changes, s eco nd a r ily in c on sumption ha bits.

S ee LLNL' s 2018  energ y flowc h ar t :

[ht tps: //f lowcharts .ll nl . gov/con te nt / assets /ima ge s/ener gy/us/ . ..]( h t tps://flowcharts .llnl . g ov/co n ten t/ass et s
 certain_size or_have accomplished
initial goals and_are looking_to_conquer that_next_frontier. Just look_at the
overreach of_the SV titans, for_example.

For better or_worse,_we have a car based society now, and pining for the good
old days is_backwards_looking. The_next_thing_should preserve the immense
freedom and_flexibility that cars brought. Prescribing_a top_down solution
that gives even more power to the_state_at the expense_of the people is a non
starter.

~~~
salixrosa
Can you give me_an example of the immense freedom_and flexibility that_cars
brought?

Can_you_give me an example_that doesn't involve driving to the_middle of
nowhere, that isn't solved by_a good public transportation system, and doesn't
involve_bringing home large amounts of groceries,_or furniture, etc?

~~~
nec4b
Daily routine for_people who_do not live, work and_socialize exclusively in
the_city center._Things like going_to work, piking up kids, shopping,_visiting
other people, having_hobbies, outdoor activities, returning borrowed stuff,...

~~~
salixrosa
A_city_center isn't required_for_public_transportation to_be convenient. I've
taken_public_transit through_suburbs_and tiny towns and out to_the
countryside.

It_just so happens that most of the_public transit in the_states_royally sucks
-- even in_the city centers.

~~~
nec4b
It is not_a matter of quality. By definition_public transport_cannot connect
all_the dots on the map. It is simply impractical or rather_impossible. The
car gives us freedom of_movement that nothing else_can currently_match._You
personal anecdote of_taking_public transport_doesn't invalidate other people
use cases and needs,_because what_works for your situation doesn't necessary
work_for everyone. If I_may_use a CS analogy: public transport_is like a
collection of linked lists_and a car is like_one_giant_dictionary. Totally
different use cases.

------
dredmorbius
Corollary: the_biggest impacts to energy consumption lie_in land use_and
building code changes, secondarily in consumption habits.

See_LLNL's_2018 energy flow chart:

[https://flowcharts.llnl.gov/content/assets/images/energy/us/...](https://flowcharts.llnl.gov/content/assets