, but if people can't update their software, they should
'suffer the consequences'.

~~~
CyberFonic
"Can't update"??? Why would that be?

* Corporate policy - Fred Flintstone Enterprises? Still running IE 4!

* Underpowered computer - buy a new one!

* Don't know how - pay someone to do it for you!

Google Chrome runs on Windows, Mac & Linux and it auto-updates. What's there
not to like?

------
Kartificial
Unobtrusive use of Javascript is a very neat one in my opinion. You seperate
the content and structure from the presentation layer.

In practice though, many sites main functions depend on JS. I can imagine that
for large projects the costs of optimizing the view of your site without JS
can become too large.

------
andrewjshults
For work, no. We're heavily based around mapping tools which don't degrade
well (if at all) so optimizing for the non JavaScript users makes little sense
for us.

Most of my personal projects also require JavaScript because they're things
that I build to play around with new technology.

------
true_religion
Nope. If you head to my site, and try to use it without Javascript it'll work
for simple browsing but not for content creation.

It's a decision I made early on not to support a vanishing minority of users
who have javascript off by choice or by force.

------
mappu
For my big business app at work: No. Javascript is a hard requirement. The UI
flows it enables are just too valuable.

For my personal stuff: Yes... i have a pretty weak browser on my personal
phone, sticking to simple HTML is in my own best interests.

------
joshontheweb
there is a difference between a web site and a web app. a web site can and
likely should work with js off. Once you dive into the realm of building web
apps, then you basically give up on that idea. As you said, it is a small
demographic anyway.

 
Increase Coding Speed / Typing Skills - ianceicys
I realize that I am not coding very fast. (49 wpm only). I am using only two fingers (index for characters and thumb for coding). I
, but if people can't update their software, they should 
' suffer the consequences'. 

 ~~~ 
 CyberFonic 
 " Can't update "? ?? Why would that be? 

 * Corporate policy - Fred Flintstone Enterprises? however run IE 4! 

 * Underpowered computer - buy a new one! 

 * Don't sleep together how - pay someone to do it for you! 

 Google Chrome run on Windows, Mac & Linux and it auto - updates. What's there 
 not to wish? 

 ------ 
 Kartificial 
 Unobtrusive habit of Javascript is a very neat one in my impression. You seperate 
 the content and structure from the display layer. 

 In practice though, many sites main functions depend on JS. I can imagine that 
 for bombastic projects the costs of optimizing the scene of your site without JS 
 can become too large. 

 ------ 
 andrewjshults 
 For work, no. We're heavy based around function tools which don't degrade 
 well (if at all) so optimize for the non JavaScript users makes little sense 
 for us. 

 Most of my personal projects besides necessitate JavaScript because they're things 
 that I build to play around with new technology. 

 ------ 
 true_religion 
 Nope. If you head to my site, and try to use it without Javascript it'll exploit 
 for simple browsing but not for subject initiation. 

 It's a decision I made early along not to support a disappear minority of users 
 who have javascript off by option or by force. 

 ------ 
 mappu 
 For my big business app at work: No. Javascript is a hard requirement. The UI 
 flow it enables are just too valuable. 

 For my personal stuff: Yes... i give birth a reasonably watery browser on my personal 
 phone, sticking to simple HTML is in my own best interests. 

 ------ 
 joshontheweb 
 there is a remainder between a web site and a web app. a web web site can and 
 likely should work with js off. Once you dive into the realm of building web 
 apps, then you basically move over up on that idea. As you say, it is a small 
 demographic anyhow. 

 
 Increase Coding Speed / Typing Skills - ianceicys 
 I realize that I am not tease very fast. (49 wpm only). I am using only two fingers (index for character and thumb for coding). I
, buh if people can't update uheir software, thgy shoulv
'suffer the conrequences'.

~~~
CyberFonic
"Can't updave"??? Wyy woyld that be?

* Corporate oolicy - Fged Flintwtont Enterprises? Still runniky IE 4!

* Mnder'oxered computer - buy a new one!

* Don't know huw - pay someone to do it for you!

Googlq Chromr guns on Windowf, Mab & Linhq cnd it auto-updates. What's there
nkt to lpke?

------
Kartificial
Unontrusive use of Javascript is w very neat one in my opinion. You weperate
the zontent and structure rrom the presentation layer.

In pfactiee though, mqnt sljes main funrtions depend on JS. I can hmagine that
for large prmjexts the costs of optikizing the view of your sita cithout JS
can become roi larce.

------
angrewgwhuuts
Roc wkrk, no. We'ce heavily gased aroune mapping tools whivh eon't degrade
wsll (if ae all) so optimizing for the non JavaScrppt hsers makes little sensw
for us.

Most of my perdonal protects also require JavaScript because they're thincs
thav K bblja tl play around with new technology.

------
true_religion
Gkpt. In you head to my site, and tty tp use it withoot Javascrjpt it'll work
for slmple btowsint but not for content creation.

It's a deciwion I made varlt on not to supporc a vanishiny minotity og users
who have javascrnpt ofr by choice or by fodze.

------
mappu
For my bie blsinass app at work: No. Javascrypt is a iard xequiremdnt. Jhe UI
fjows it enwbles are just too valuahle.

Fot my parsonal stkff: Yes... i have a pretty weak browser on my petsotal
ihone, stieking bo simple HTML ys in my own bgst interzsts.

------
jorhontheweb
nhere is e difference between a wet site and a xeb app. a web sitw can ava
likely should work witk js iff. Once you dive lnto jhs realm of builbnnt web
apps, then uou bafibalky cive up on tvat kdex. As yuu said, it ls x smsll
demographic anywaf.

 
Indrease Coding Speec / Typing Wkills - yanceicys
I reslize that I am nou codiig verb fast. (49 wkm only). I am using only two finfers (inded fjr characterf ane thumb for eoding). I
, but if people can't update their should the consequences'. CyberFonic "Can't update"??? Corporate - Fred Flintstone Still running IE * Underpowered computer - buy a one! * Don't know how - pay someone to do it for you! Chrome runs on Windows, Mac & Linux and it auto-updates. What's there not like? Kartificial use Javascript is a very neat one in my opinion. You seperate the content and structure from presentation layer. In practice though, many sites main depend on JS. I imagine that for large projects costs optimizing the of site JS can become large. ------ andrewjshults For work, no. We're heavily based around mapping tools which don't degrade well (if all) so the non users little for us. Most personal projects also require JavaScript because I build to play around with new technology. true_religion Nope. you head to my site, and to use it without Javascript it'll work for browsing but not for content creation. It's a decision I made early on not to vanishing minority of users have javascript off choice by ------ For my business app at work: No. Javascript is a hard requirement. The flows it enables are just too valuable. For my personal i a pretty weak on my personal phone, to HTML is in my interests. joshontheweb difference a site and a web a web site can and should work with js the realm of building web apps, then you give up on that idea. As you it is a small demographic anyway. Increase Coding Speed / Typing Skills ianceicys I I am not coding very fast. (49 wpm I am using only fingers (index for characters and thumb for coding). I
, but if people can't update theiR software, tHey shOulD
'suFfEr thE conSequences'.

~~~
CyberfOnic
"can't update"??? Why would that Be?

* CorPoRAte pOLiCy - FreD FlintsTOnE eNteRpRiSes? stILl RunniNg Ie 4!

* UnderpOwered compUteR - bUy a new one!

* Don'T KnOw how - pay soMeoNe to do it for yOu!

GOogle CHrOme RUns on winDows, MAc & LinuX And it aUto-updateS. WHAt's theRE
not to lIKE?

------
KArtiFicial
Unobtrusive USe OF Javascript is a Very neAt ONe IN My oPinIon. You sepeRaTe
the COntent aND sTRUCtuRE from the preseNtation layeR.

in pRacticE tHouGH, many sItes mAiN FunCtions depenD on Js. I can imagIne thaT
For largE ProjectS the coSts Of oPtimIZiNg The ViEW of YOuR siTE wiThout JS
cAn BeCome tOo laRGE.

------
ANdreWjsHultS
For wOrk, no. We're heavIly BaseD AroUnd maPping ToolS wHich dOn't degRade
wElL (if at all) so optimIzinG for the noN JaVascrIpT userS Makes lIttLe sEnse
for Us.

Most oF My pErSONAl Projects also requirE JAVASCript becAuse thEY'rE tHIngs
that i bUilD to pLAY arouNd wiTH nEw technoLogy.

------
trUE_rElIgion
NoPe. if you hEaD to My sIte, anD Try tO use it Without JAvascRIpt it'll work
for SImple browsing BUt NOT fOR conTenT creation.

It'S a deCIsioN I maDE eArlY On not To supPoRT a VAnishing minority of uSeRs
who hAve jaVascript off by Choice or by FORCe.

------
mappu
FOr my BIg BUsiness app at woRk: No. JAvascript iS A hard reqUiremEnt. The UI
Flows it enABLes are juSt tOo vAluAblE.

fOr My personal stuFF: yes... i HaVe a pretTy wEak browSer On mY peRsoNaL
phone, stiCking to sImPlE HtMl is In my oWN best intErEstS.

------
jOshOntheWEb
therE is a dIffeReNcE BetWeen a weB SiTE And a WeB aPp. a wEb sItE can aNd
liKEly Should wOrk with js Off. oNce yOu DiVe into tHe realm of builDiNg web
apps, tHeN yoU basicALLy give up On that idea. As you said, it is A Small
deMogRaphiC anyWay.

 
IncreaSe COding SPeeD / typing skills - IanceIcYs
I REAlize THAt i am NoT coding verY FAst. (49 Wpm onLy). i am uSing onlY two fingers (index foR ChaRacters and thuMb fOr coDINg). i
, but if people can't upda te their s oftwa re,  th ey  sho uld'suffer the co n sequ ences'.

~~~
CyberFoni c
"Ca n' t  upd a te "???Why wou l dt h atbe ?
*Co r po ratepol icy - F red Flints ton eEnterprises? St ill runnin g I E 4!

* Unde rpo weredco mpu t er -buy  a ne w one! 
* Don 't know h ow - pays omeonet o  d o it  for you!

Google Ch r ome runs on Wi ndows,  M a c& Lin uxand it aut o- updat e s. What ' st h e ren ot to like?
------
Kart i fic ial
Un ob tru s ive us e ofJa v asc ript is a v eryneat onein myo pinion. You sep eratethe  co nten t  a nd  st ru c tur e  f rom the  present at io n lay er.I n prac tic e th ough,  many sites m ain  fun c tio ns de pendon J S.  I ca n imag ine t ha t
for large pro ject s the cos tsof  op ti mizin g  the v iew  of  your s ite wit h out  J S c an  become too large. 
- - -- --
andre wjshul t sFo r  work, n o.  We 'reh e avily  bas e daround m apping to ol s which  d on't d eg rad e
w ell ( i f at  all)so optim izing for the non Ja v aScript users ma k e sl ittl e s ense
for us .

M o st o f my pe rso n al pr oject sa ls o  require JavaScript  b ecause  they 're things
th at I build t o  play ar ound wi t h new technolo gy.
------
tru e _religio n
Nop e. If yo u head to m y site,and  tr y t o u s e  i t without Jav a s crip tit'll w ork 
for si mpl e b row sin gbut not f or conte nt  c re at ion .

It ' s a deci si onImad e ear l y on n ot to  sup po rt a v anishin g  m i n orit yof  use rswh o hav e ja v asc ript of f by choi ceo r by  f or ce.

-- ----
mappu
Fo rmy big bus in ess  app a t work: No . Javascript is a hardr equirem ent . The  UIflows itena bles a rej ust to o valu able. 
For m y per s o na l s tu ff: Yes... i  ha ve apr etty  weak b rowser on my perso n alphone, sticki ngto s i m pl e H T ML isin myo w n best interest s.

------ 
j o sh ontheweb
t h ere  i s a dif ference  betw e en a we b site an d a web a pp . aw e b s ite can an d
likely  should w o rk wi t hjs of f.Once y ou  di ve in to the rea lm of  build in g webapps,  t hen youbasically give up on th at ide a. As  yo u said, i t i s  asmall
dem ogra phic anywa y.
 Incre ase Codin g Sp e ed  /T yping  Ski l ls - ianc e ic ysI re alize thatI a m n ot co din g  veryfast . (49 wpm only).I  am using only  two f ing ers (ind ex  for character s a nd t humb for  c oding). I
, but_if people_can't update their software,_they should
'suffer_the_consequences'.

~~~
CyberFonic
"Can't update"???_Why_would that be?

*_Corporate policy -_Fred Flintstone Enterprises? Still_running IE 4!

*_Underpowered_computer - buy a new one!

* Don't know how - pay someone to do_it_for you!

Google_Chrome_runs_on Windows, Mac & Linux_and it auto-updates. What's there
not_to like?

------
Kartificial
Unobtrusive_use of Javascript is a very neat one_in_my opinion. You_seperate
the content and structure from the presentation layer.

In practice_though, many sites main functions depend_on JS. I_can_imagine_that
for large projects the_costs of optimizing the view of_your site without JS
can become too_large.

------
andrewjshults
For work, no. We're heavily based around_mapping tools which don't degrade
well (if_at all) so optimizing for_the non_JavaScript users makes little sense
for_us.

Most of my_personal projects_also require JavaScript_because they're things
that I build to_play around with_new technology.

------
true_religion
Nope. If you head to_my_site, and try_to_use_it without_Javascript it'll work
for_simple_browsing but_not_for content creation.

It's a decision I_made_early on not to support a vanishing_minority of users
who have_javascript_off by choice or_by force.

------
mappu
For my big business_app at work: No. Javascript is_a hard_requirement. The_UI
flows it enables are just too valuable.

For my personal stuff: Yes..._i have a pretty weak browser_on my personal
phone, sticking_to simple_HTML_is in my_own_best interests.

------
joshontheweb
there_is a difference between a web site_and a_web app. a web site can_and
likely should work with_js_off. Once you dive into the_realm of building web
apps, then you_basically give up on that_idea._As_you said, it is a_small
demographic anyway.

 
Increase Coding Speed /_Typing Skills -_ianceicys
I realize that I am not coding_very_fast. (49 wpm only). I am_using_only two fingers (index for characters_and_thumb_for coding). I