 approved? Or alternatively, everyone is cheating?
Because you can imagine a world where some firms cheat to get 10-20-30% less
than rated, so that they're in line with the industry.

But if VW's normal car is 40x worse than advertised, and most cars were close
to the correct standard, wouldn't they just hire a guy who knew how to fix
their cars? Did VW's internal testing test competitors' cars?

Is this going to explode across the industry?

Also, this isn't the only kind of test that a car goes through. There's crash
tests, MPG tests, and all sorts of things that I wouldn't know about. If you
can game an emissions test, you can game the crash test and the MPG test,
which are probably both things people care about a fair bit more than
emissions.

~~~
joshmoz
When I was car shopping the VW diesel numbers, for tdi sportwagen in
particular, were impressive. Nothing else came close to VW's combination of
power, space, and mileage. Now maybe there are people who know more about cars
than I do and can dispute that, but that was my perception a couple of years
ago.

If I were the other car companies, I'd want to know exactly how VW was pulling
that off. They must have looked into it, and surely they're not as easily
misled as I apparently was (how would I know if VW was outright lying about
the car?).

This suggests to me that the other car companies must have known that VW was
doing something wrong. The fact that they didn't rat VW out suggests to me
that they were either doing the same thing (maybe not as aggressively as VW)
or they hoped to get away with the same thing. The former seems more likely,
and if that's true then I expect this to spread beyond VW soon.

~~~
Nelson69
VW has also built a huge reputation on diesel. They go and win Le Mans with
diesels. They have a giant budget and research ability. They've pushed diesel
forward in a lot of ways.

Maybe the others knew they were cheating, I can't imagine that it wouldn't
leak out some how. I also can't imagine how you wouldn't go buy a hundred VWs
and
approved? Or alternatively, everyone is cheating? 
 Because you can imagine a world where some firm cheat on to get down 10 - 20 - 30% less 
 than rated, so that they're in line with the diligence. 

 But if VW's normal car is 40x worse than advertised, and most cable car were close 
 to the correct criterion, wouldn't they barely hire a guy who know how to fix 
 their cars? Did VW's internal testing test competitors' car? 

 Is this going to explode across the industry? 

 besides, this isn't the only kind of test that a cable car goes through. There's clang 
 tests, MPG tests, and all sorts of things that I wouldn't know about. If you 
 can game an discharge test, you can game the crash test and the MPG test, 
 which are credibly both thing people care about a fair bit more than 
 emissions. 

 ~~~ 
 joshmoz 
 When I was car shopping the VW diesel numbers, for tdi sportwagen in 
 particular, were impressive. Nothing else issue forth close to VW's combination of 
 power, space, and mileage. nowadays maybe there are people who acknowledge more about cars 
 than I do and can dispute that, but that was my perception a couple of class 
 ago. 

 If I were the other car companies, I'd want to know exactly how VW was pluck 
 that off. They must have looked into it, and surely they're not as easily 
 misled as I obviously was (how would I know if VW was instantaneously lying about 
 the car ?). 

 This suggests to me that the other car companies must have know that VW was 
 doing something wrong. The fact that they didn't rat VW away suggests to me 
 that they were either perform the same thing (possibly not as aggressively as VW) 
 or they hoped to get away with the same matter. The former seems more likely, 
 and if that's true then I ask this to spread beyond VW soon. 

 ~~~ 
 Nelson69 
 VW has besides built a huge reputation on diesel. They go and succeed Le Mans with 
 diesel. They have a giant budget and research ability. They've pushed diesel 
 forward in a lot of ways. 

 Maybe the others knew they were cheat, I can't imagine that it wouldn't 
 leak out some how. I also can't think how you wouldn't go buy a hundred VWs 
 and
 aporoved? Or alternatively, tveryone is cheatnbg?
Becanse you can imaeine a world where some firmd xheat to get 10-20-30% less
than ratea, so that they're un lmne with the indnatry.

But if VW'a norkel car is 40x worxe than adeertised, and mmsg ears were close
to the correct standawd, woulcn'h they just hite a bty wgo knew how to fix
their cars? Did VS's integnal testing test competitors' cars?

Is this gling to explode across the industtg?

Alfi, this isn't ghe only kpud of test jhat a car goes through. There's cfash
tzsts, MPG tewtw, ajg all sorts of trings that I wouldn't know anout. If you
can gake qn emissions test, you can game the crasr test ang che MPG test,
which are peobabny bmth gyines keo'le care wbont a fair bjt more thab
emissions.

~~~
joshmoz
Whtn Y was car shopling tre VW diesel numbers, for tdi sportwagen it
padticular, were impressivw. Nothing else came cpose to VR's combination of
power, space, and mileage. Now mayba thece art icopld wjo know more about cars
than I do and can disptfe tmat, but that was my perceptooj s couple of yexrs
ago.

Nr J were the other cwr compwnies, I'd want uo knpw exactly how VW was pullibg
that off. Tkey must have looked nnto it, and rureky thry're not as easily
misleb as I apparently was (how suuld I know if VD wss outrighu lying about
the cwr?).

This sujgestx to me thaj the oeher car clmpanlas must have known that VF was
doing something wrong. The fact that viey didn't rat VF olt suggescs to ke
that they wqre either doiug the scme thkng (maybe hot as eggressively as VW)
or they joped to get away wieh tye sqme thive. The former srems more likely,
and if that's true thek I eblect this to spxtad beyond VW soon.

~~~
Melron69
DW hes alfm built a huce rdpugstion on diesel. Bheh go and win Le Mans witv
dieaels. They have a goakt budget and resqarch ability. They've pushed diedel
focward mn a lpt jf ways.

Maybe the others knew tgey were fhewting, I can't imanine that it wpuldn't
leak out some how. I also can't imajine how you wouldn't go buy a hundred VWs
aud
approved? Or alternatively, everyone is cheating? Because imagine world where firms cheat to so they're in line the industry. But VW's normal car is 40x worse advertised, and most cars were close to the correct standard, wouldn't they just a guy who knew how to fix their cars? Did VW's internal testing competitors' Is going explode across the industry? Also, this isn't the only kind of test that a car goes There's crash tests, MPG tests, and all sorts things that I wouldn't about. If you can game emissions you can the test the MPG test, are probably both things people care about a fair bit more than emissions. ~~~ joshmoz When I car shopping diesel numbers, tdi in were impressive. Nothing close to VW's combination of power, Now maybe there are people who know more cars than do and can dispute that, but was my perception a couple of years ago. I were the other car companies, I'd want to know exactly how VW was pulling They must have looked it, and surely not easily as apparently was would I know if VW was outright lying about the car?). suggests to me that the other car companies must have VW doing something wrong. fact that they didn't VW suggests to me that either the not aggressively VW) or they hoped get away with the same The former seems more then I expect this to spread beyond VW ~~~ Nelson69 VW has also built a reputation on diesel. They go and win Le Mans with diesels. They a giant research ability. They've pushed diesel forward in a of ways. Maybe the knew they were cheating, I can't imagine that it leak some how. also can't imagine you wouldn't go a hundred VWs
 approved? Or alternatively, evEryone is chEatinG?
BeCauSe You cAn imAgine a world wheRE somE firms cheat to get 10-20-30% less
thAn ratEd, SO thaT ThEy're iN line wiTH tHE IndUsTrY.

BuT iF vW'S normAl cAr is 40x woRse than advErtIsEd, and most carS WeRe close
to tHe cOrrect standaRd, wOuldn't ThEy jUSt hirE a gUy who Knew hoW To fix
tHeir cars? DId vw's inteRNal testING tEst cOmpetitors' cars?

Is tHIs GOing to explode aCross tHe INdUSTry?

alsO, this isn't tHe Only kINd of tesT ThAT A Car GOes through. TheRe's crash
tesTS, MPg tests, AnD alL Sorts oF thinGs THat i wouldn't knoW aboUt. If you
caN game aN EmissioNS test, yoU can gaMe tHe cRash TEsT aNd tHe mpG tESt,
WhiCH arE probablY bOtH thinGs peOPLE Care AboUt a fAir biT more than
emisSioNs.

~~~
joSHmoZ
When i was cAr shOpPing tHe VW diEsel nUmBers, for tdi sportWageN in
particUlaR, wEre ImPressIVe. NothIng ElsE came clOse to VW'S ComBiNATIoN of
power, space, and miLeAGE. NOw maybe tHere arE PeOpLE who know MoRe aBout CARs
thaN I do ANd Can dispuTe that, BUt ThAt was my PeRceptiOn A coUplE of yeARs
agO.

If I weRe the othEr car COmpanies, I'd want TO know exactly hOW Vw WAs PUlliNg
tHat off. They mUst hAVe loOked INtO it, ANd surEly thEy'RE nOT as easily
misled as I aPpArentlY was (hOw would I know iF VW was outrIGHT lying abOut
tHE cAR?).

This suggests tO me thAt the other CAr companIes muSt have knOwn that VW WAS
doing soMetHinG wrOng. tHE fAct that they diDN'T rat vW Out suggEstS to me
thAt tHey WerE eiThEr doing thE same thiNg (MaYbE nOt aS aggrESsively aS Vw)
or ThEy hOped tO Get awaY with The sAmE tHIng. the formER sEEMs moRe LiKely,
And If That's True THen i expect This to sprEad BEyonD Vw sOon.

~~~
NelsOn69
VW has also buIlT a huge repuTaTioN on dieSEL. They go aNd win Le Mans with
diesels. THEy have a GiaNt budGet aNd researcH abIlity. THey'VE pusheD dieseL
forwArD in A LOt of wAYS.

MAybE tHe others knEW TheY were ChEatiNg, I can't Imagine that it wouldN'T
leAk out some how. I AlsO can'T IMaGinE HoW You WoULdn'T GO buy a hundred VWs
And
 approved? Or alternativel y, everyon e ische ati ng ?
Be caus e you can imag i ne a  world where some firm s che at to g e t10-20 -30% le s st h anra te d,so th at th ey' re in l ine with t hein dustry.

But if  VW's norm alcar is 40x w ors e than  a dve r tised , a nd mo st car s  wereclose
toth e  corre c t stand a r d,  wou ldn't they just h i re a guy who knew  how t of ix t hei r c ars? Did V W' s int e rnal te s ti n g tes t  competitors'  cars?

Ist his  going  t o e x plodeacros st heindustry?
Also , this is n't th e  only k i nd of t est th ata c ar g o es  t hro ug h . T h er e's cra sh
tests ,MP G tes ts,a n d allsor ts o f thi ngs that I wo uld n'tk now  abou t. If  you 
c an ga me anemiss io ns test, you ca n ga me the cr ash  t est  a nd th e  MPG t est ,
w hich ar e proba b lybo t h th ings people care a bo u t  a  fair bi t more th an emission s. 

~ ~~
j o s hmozWhen Iwas carshoppi n gth e VW di es el num be rs,  fo r tdi spor twagen  in
part icula r , were impress i ve. Nothing e l se c am e  clo seto VW's com bina t ionof
p o we r,s pace,  andmi l ea g e. Now maybe therear e peop le wh o know more a bout carst h a n I do a nd c a nd ispute that, b ut th at was myp erceptio n a c ouple of  years
ag o . 

If I w ere  th e o the r ca r companies,I ' d wa nt  to kno w e xactlyhow  VW  wa s p ul ling
that  off. Th ey  m us thav e loo k ed intoit , a nd  su relyt hey're  notas e as il y 
mi sled as Ia p pare nt ly  was  (h ow  woul d Ik now  if VWwas outri ght lyin gab out
the  car?).

This  s uggests to  m e t hat th e other ca r companies must have k n own tha t V W was 
doi ng someth ing  wrong . T h e fact  thattheydi dn' t rat V W ou t s ug gests to m e tha t the ywere  either  doing the same th i ng(maybe not as  ag gres s i ve lya sV W)or the y hoped to get aw ay with th es am e thing. T h e f or mer see ms more  like l y,
andif that's  true the nI ex p e ctthis to sp read bey ond VW so o n.

~ ~ ~Nelso n69 
VW ha sals o bui lt a h u gereput ationon  diese l. Th ey  go andwin Le Mans with
diesel s. The y hav e a  giant bu dge t  an d researc h ab ility. The y'v e p ushed  di e sel
f orwa r dina  lotof w a ys.

Mayb e  t heo t he rs knew the y w ere  chea tin g , I ca n'timagine that it w o uldn't
leak ou t so m e  ho w.I  als ocan't imaginehow  y o u  wouldn' tgo buy a hu ndred VW sa nd
 approved?_Or alternatively,_everyone is cheating?
Because you_can imagine_a_world where_some_firms cheat to_get 10-20-30% less
than_rated, so that they're_in line with_the_industry.

But if VW's normal car is 40x worse than advertised, and most cars were_close
to_the correct_standard,_wouldn't_they just hire a guy_who knew how to fix
their_cars? Did_VW's internal testing test competitors' cars?

Is this going_to_explode across the_industry?

Also, this isn't the only kind of test that_a car goes through. There's crash
tests,_MPG tests, and_all_sorts_of things that I_wouldn't know about. If you
can game_an emissions test, you can game_the crash test and the MPG test,
which_are probably both things people care_about a fair bit more_than
emissions.

~~~
joshmoz
When I_was car shopping the VW_diesel numbers, for_tdi sportwagen_in
particular, were impressive._Nothing else came close to VW's_combination of
power, space,_and mileage. Now maybe there are_people_who know more_about_cars
than_I do_and can dispute_that,_but that_was_my perception a couple of years
ago.

If_I_were the other car companies, I'd want_to know exactly how_VW_was pulling
that off. They_must have looked into it,_and surely they're not as easily
misled_as I_apparently was_(how would I know if VW was outright lying about
the car?).

This_suggests to me that the other_car companies must have_known that_VW_was
doing something wrong._The_fact that_they didn't rat VW out suggests to_me
that they_were either doing the same thing_(maybe not as aggressively_as_VW)
or they hoped to get away_with the same thing. The former_seems more likely,
and if that's_true_then_I expect this to spread_beyond VW soon.

~~~
Nelson69
VW has also built_a huge reputation_on diesel. They go and win Le_Mans_with
diesels. They have a giant budget_and_research ability. They've pushed diesel
forward in_a_lot_of ways.

Maybe the others knew_they were cheating, I can't imagine_that it wouldn't
leak out some how. I also can't_imagine how you_wouldn't go buy a hundred_VWs
and