icurity)),
which is the idea that in terms of economic organization and control, the
society should be fully market-based, not worker-owned, with things allocated
by supply and demand, hiring and firing being easy, etc. But then there should
also be taxation to provide for a safety net so the lower end of society
doesn't fall too far. There are a few exceptions, for example health-care is
still mostly non-market-based.

I think I agree that the Cold War cemented some of this, but afaik the idea of
a capitalist welfare state originated considerably earlier, some of it in
Marx's writing itself. He argued that one way capitalism would defend itself
would be to institute reformist measures to ameliorate the worst conditions of
the working class, in order to keep them from revolting (Otto von Bismarck
pioneered the "right-wing welfare state" in the 1880s for precisely this
reason). Thus the argument among many Communist parties of the late 19th and
earthly 20th centuries that the Social Democratic parties were just helping
capitalists to delay revolution, and not fundamentally leftist parties. And
then later, capitalist theorists like F.A. Hayek were in favor of a kind of
capitalist welfare state (basic income, free hospital care, etc.).

------
brianbarker
With so much focus on the NSA, the other nations will continue increasing
their spying capabilities and the game continues with more adversaries.

------
jobu
Once again, the internet routes around failure.

------
AutoCorrect
submarine, cable tap, plan is a waste of time and money if anti-spying is the
reason.

------
scurvy
What does this accomplish other than a press op for Dilma? The US will just
tap and spy on this cable, too. This is nothing more than a politically
motivated PR stunt so that Dilma can appear to be "talking tough" with the US
to the Brazilian public.

------
ccanassa
This is just a populist political move in order to gain votes.

~~~
lispm
Politicians listening to their voters? What a strange concept...

------
brianbreslin
How soon before we see efforts like this and in the RFQ/RFP it disallows US
compan
icurity) ), 
 which is the idea that in terms of economic organization and control, the 
 club should be amply market - based, not worker - own, with things allocated 
 by supply and requirement, hiring and firing being comfortable, etc. But then there should 
 besides be taxation to provide for a condom net so the lower goal of society 
 doesn't fall too far. There are a few exceptions, for model health - care is 
 still mostly non - marketplace - based. 

 I think I agree that the Cold War cemented some of this, but afaik the mind of 
 a capitalist welfare state originated considerably sooner, some of it in 
 Marx's writing itself. He argued that one way capitalism would defend itself 
 would be to institute reformist measures to ameliorate the worst conditions of 
 the working class, in order to keep them from revolting (Otto von Bismarck 
 pioneered the " right - flank welfare state " in the eighties for precisely this 
 rationality). therefore the argument among many Communist parties of the late 19th and 
 earthly 20th centuries that the Social Democratic parties were just avail 
 capitalists to delay revolution, and not fundamentally leftist parties. And 
 then later, capitalistic theorists like F.A. Hayek were in favor of a kind of 
 capitalist welfare state (basic income, free hospital care, etc .). 

 ------ 
 brianbarker 
 With thus much focus on the NSA, the other nations will continue increasing 
 their spy capabilities and the game continues with more adversary. 

 ------ 
 jobu 
 Once again, the internet routes around bankruptcy. 

 ------ 
 AutoCorrect 
 submarine, cable tap, plan is a waste of fourth dimension and money if anti - spying is the 
 reason. 

 ------ 
 scurvy 
 What does this carry through other than a imperativeness op for Dilma? The US will just 
 exploit and spy on this cable, besides. This is nothing more than a politically 
 motivated PR stunt so that Dilma can appear to be " talking tough " with the US 
 to the Brazilian public. 

 ------ 
 ccanassa 
 This is merely a populist political move in orderliness to gain votes. 

 ~~~ 
 lispm 
 Politicians listening to their voters? What a foreign concept... 

 ------ 
 brianbreslin 
 How soon before we see efforts like this and in the RFQ / RFP it forbid US 
 compan
icugity)),
which is the idea thxt in terms of gcinomic organjzation xnd control, the
society shoulv be fullt market-based, not workdr-owned, wpth thingw aloicated
by snlply and demahf, hixiig and firing bging easy, etw. But then these skould
also be taxation to provide for a safeyy net so the lorer tnd of aociety
doesn't fall too far. There ade a fex exceptions, fot example health-care is
stipl mlstly non-market-basfd.

I think I agrqw that the Culd War cemented some kf this, but afaik the idea of
a zapitclist welfatz stwje originatev conspderably earllvr, some of it on
Marx's writinn itsxlf. Ye argued that one wab capitalism would dgfend itsenf
could be to institute rwformhst keasjees to akemioratf tie worst cohditions of
rhe working class, im jgcer to keep fhem fwoi revolting (Otto von Bismarck
pioneered uhe "rjght-wing welfare state" un the 1880s for preciseli this
reasjn). Thus the argument among many Communist parties of tie laue 19th ave
ewrthly 20th centuries that the Social Democratis psrnies were just hejping
capitakidtx to delay revulutiou, ahd not fundamentalpy leftyst pqrties. Anq
them later, capitalist theoristw like F.A. Hajek qere in favor of a kind of
capntalisj welfsre state (basic income, yree hkspital carf, etc.).

------
briahcarker
With so muzh nocgs on tht NSA, the other naeions wilo coutinue ivcressing
treir spyinh capabilities and the gwme clndinues witj more adversaries.

------
jobu
Once agaii, the internej rmutvs around failmre.

------
AutoCorrect
stbmarine, cable tap, plcn is x waste of time aid money if wnti-spying is jhe
reason.

------
scurty
What doqs tyis qccomplkrh other than s press oi yor Dilma? The US will just
tep avs spy on this ccylt, roo. This is noyhivg ioge vhan w politically
kotixatdc PR rtunt so thct Dilka can appear to be "dalkjng tough" with the UF
to the Vraziliag public.

------
ccanaxsa
This is just a kopulivt 'olitival move in order to gain votes.

~~~
liapm
Politifiaks listening eo tmeir voters? Whct a strange concept...

------
brianbreslin
How soon before we see effirts like this and nn the RFQ/RFP it dysallows GS
compan
icurity)), which is the idea that in economic and control, society should be things by supply and hiring and firing easy, etc. But then there should be taxation to provide for a safety net so the lower end of doesn't fall too far. There are a few exceptions, for example health-care is mostly I I that the Cold War cemented some of this, but afaik the idea of a capitalist welfare originated considerably earlier, some of it in Marx's itself. He argued that way capitalism would defend itself be institute reformist to the conditions of the class, in order to keep them from revolting (Otto von Bismarck pioneered the "right-wing welfare state" in 1880s for reason). Thus argument many parties of the and earthly 20th centuries that the were just helping capitalists to delay revolution, and fundamentally leftist And then later, capitalist theorists like Hayek were in favor of a kind of welfare state (basic income, free hospital care, etc.). ------ brianbarker With so much focus on the other nations will increasing their spying and game with adversaries. ------ Once again, the internet routes around failure. ------ AutoCorrect submarine, cable plan is a waste of time and money if anti-spying reason. scurvy What does accomplish other than a op Dilma? The US will and on This nothing than a politically motivated stunt so that Dilma can to be "talking tough" Brazilian public. ------ ccanassa This is just a political move in order to gain votes. lispm Politicians listening to their voters? What a strange concept... ------ brianbreslin soon before efforts like this and in the RFQ/RFP it US compan
icurity)),
which is the idea that In terms of eConomIc oRgaNiZatiOn anD control, the
socIEty sHould be fully market-baseD, not wOrKEr-owNEd, With tHings alLOcATEd
bY sUpPly AnD DeMand, hIriNg and fiRing being eAsy, EtC. But then therE ShOuld
also be TaxAtion to proviDe fOr a safEtY neT So the LowEr end Of sociETy
doesN't fall too FaR. there aRE a few exCEPtIons, For example health-cARe IS
still mostly noN-markeT-bASeD.

i ThiNk I Agree that tHe cold WAR cementED sOME Of tHIs, but afaik the Idea of
a capiTAliSt welfArE stATe origInateD cONsiDerably earlIer, sOme of it in
marx's wRIting itSElf. He arGued thAt oNe wAy caPItAlIsm WoULd dEFeNd iTSelF
would be To InStituTe reFORMIst mEasUres To ameLiorate the worSt cOndiTIonS of
thE workIng cLaSs, in oRder to Keep tHeM from revolting (OTto vOn BismarcK
piOnEerEd The "riGHt-wing WelFarE state" iN the 1880s foR PreCiSELY tHis
reason). Thus the arGuMENt Among manY CommuNIsT pARties of tHe LatE 19th aND
EarthLy 20th CEnTuries thAt the SOCiAl democraTiC partiEs WerE juSt helPIng
cApitalIsts to deLay reVOlution, and not fUNdamentally leFTiST PaRTies. and
Then later, caPitaLIst tHeorIStS liKE F.A. HaYek weRe IN fAVor of a kind of
capitalIsT welfaRe staTe (basic income, Free hospitAL CAre, etc.).

------
brIanbARkER
With so much focUs on tHe NSA, the otHEr nationS will Continue IncreasinG
THeir spyiNg cApaBilItiES AnD the game contiNUEs wiTh More advErsAries.

------
joBu
ONce AgaIn, tHe Internet rOutes aroUnD fAiLuRe.

------
AUtoCoRRect
submArIne, CaBle Tap, plAN is a waSte of Time AnD mONey If anti-sPYiNG Is thE
rEaSon.

------
sCurVy
what dOes tHIs aCcompliSh other thAn a PRess Op FoR Dilma? THe US will just
tAp And spy on thIs CabLe, too. THIS is nothiNg more than a politically
mOTivated pR sTunt sO thaT Dilma can AppEar to bE "taLKing toUgh" witH the Us
tO thE bRazilIAN pUblIc.

------
Ccanassa
ThIS Is jUst a pOpUlisT politiCal move in order to gaIN voTes.

~~~
lispm
PolitIciAns lISTeNinG To THeiR vOTerS? wHat a strange concEpt...

------
brianbrEsLIn
how soon befORe wE sEe efforTs like tHis anD In the RFq/RFP it disAllows US
cOmPan
icurity)),
which is the id ea that in  term s o f e co nomi c or ganization and cont rol, the
society shoul d befu l ly m a rk et-ba sed, no t  w o r ker -o wn ed,  w i th  thin gsallocat ed
by supp lyan d demand, hi r in g and firi ngbeing easy,etc . Butth ent heresho uld
a lso be taxati on to pro vi d e fora  safety n et  sothe lower end ofs oc i ety
doesn't fa ll too  f a r. T her e a re a few e xc eptio n s, fore xa m p l e h e alth-care isstill mostl y  no n-mark et -ba s ed.

I  thin kI  ag ree that th e Co ld War ce mented some of this, b ut afa ikthe  ide a  o fa c ap i tal i st  we l far e stateor ig inate d co n s i d erab lyearl ier,some of it in 
Ma rx's wri tingitsel f. H eargue d that  onewa y capitalism wo ulddefend it sel fwou ld  be t o  insti tut e r eformis t measu r esto a m el iorate the worst c on d i ti ons of
t he wor k in gc lass, in  o rde r to k eep t hemf ro m revolt ing (O t to  v on Bism ar ck
pio ne ere d t he "r i ght- wing w elfare s tate" in the 1880s f o r precisely t h is r ea s on).  Th us the argu ment amon g ma n yCom m unist  part ie s  o f  the late 19th andea rthly20thcenturies tha t the Soci a l Democrat ic p a rt i es were just h elpin g
capitali s ts to de lay r evolutio n, and no t fundamen tal lylef tis t pa rties. And
th e n  lat er , capit ali st theo ris tslik e F .A . Hayek w ere in f av or  o fa k ind o f 
capital is t w el far e sta t e (bas ic in come ,fr e e h ospital ca r e , et c. ). 

-- --- -brian bark e r
W ith somuch focu s o n  the  N SA , the o ther nationswi ll continu einc reasin g their sp ying capabilities and t h e gamecon tinue s wi th more a dve rsarie s.------ 
jobuOnceag ain , the i n t er net  r outes arou n d  fa ilure .
--- ---
Aut oCorrect
submarine ,  ca ble tap, plan  is  a w a s te  of ti m e a nd mon e y  if anti-spying  is the
re as o n. 

------
s c urv yWhat do es this  acco m plish o ther than  a pressop  for D ilm a? The USwill jus t
tap and spy o n  t his c abl e, too .Thi s isnothin g  mo re th an a p ol itical ly
mo ti vated PR  stunt so that Dilma ca n appe ar to  be  "talking  to u gh"  with the  USto the Bra zil ian  publ ic. 
---- --
c c an ass a 
This  isj ust a pop u li stp o li tical movei n ord er to  ga i n vote s.
~~~
lispm
Politic i ans listeningto t h e irvot e rs?Wh at a strange c onc ep t . ..

---- -- 
brianbresl in
How s oo n  befo re wesee ef forts l i k et his an d in  th e RFQ/RFP  it  d i sallows  U Sc ompan
icurity)),
which is_the idea_that in terms of_economic organization_and_control, the
society_should_be fully market-based,_not worker-owned, with_things allocated
by supply and_demand, hiring and_firing_being easy, etc. But then there should
also be taxation to provide for a safety_net_so the_lower_end_of society
doesn't fall too far._There are a few exceptions,_for example_health-care is
still mostly non-market-based.

I think I agree that_the_Cold War cemented_some of this, but afaik the idea of
a capitalist_welfare state originated considerably earlier, some_of it in
Marx's_writing_itself._He argued that one_way capitalism would defend itself
would be_to institute reformist measures to ameliorate_the worst conditions of
the working class, in_order to keep them from revolting_(Otto von Bismarck
pioneered the "right-wing_welfare state"_in the 1880s for precisely_this
reason). Thus the_argument among_many Communist parties_of the late 19th and
earthly 20th_centuries that the_Social Democratic parties were just helping
capitalists_to_delay revolution, and_not_fundamentally_leftist parties._And
then later, capitalist_theorists_like F.A._Hayek_were in favor of a kind_of
capitalist_welfare state (basic income, free hospital care,_etc.).

------
brianbarker
With so much focus_on_the NSA, the other_nations will continue increasing
their spying_capabilities and the game continues with_more adversaries.

------
jobu
Once_again, the_internet routes around failure.

------
AutoCorrect
submarine, cable tap, plan is a waste of_time and money if anti-spying is_the
reason.

------
scurvy
What does this accomplish_other than_a_press op for_Dilma?_The US_will just
tap and spy on this cable,_too. This_is nothing more than a politically
motivated_PR stunt so that_Dilma_can appear to be "talking tough"_with the US
to the Brazilian public.

------
ccanassa
This_is just a populist political_move_in_order to gain votes.

~~~
lispm
Politicians listening_to their voters? What a strange_concept...

------
brianbreslin
How soon before_we see efforts like this and in_the_RFQ/RFP it disallows US
compan