 no room for web applications that could
be accessed from a good ol' desktop pc? How come is that?

------
el_presidente
People love to whine about changes to websites. OTOH, nobody complains when
their TV remote changes layout or when their living room rearranges itself
overnight.

It's a double standard.

------
tomrod
What? Gmail redesigned? I use a desktop client, so I never really focus on the
webside.

------
mkramlich
I also think the new design is a step backwards in usability. And yes I
thought we all learned by now that symbolic icons are not as good as text
labels. That's pretty much the point of human languages like English -- they
are symbols which have a meaning, and you arrange them in different ways to
convey different meanings. Given a choice between some arbitrary shape and the
text "STOP", guess which one will more clearly and unambiguously convey
"STOP"?

~~~
gujk
The pencil icon, obviously. Or maybe the square with a rectangle on top.

------
gcb
even though i think windows is wrong by not unpleasing users with design
changes for the better... and not agreeing that white space _may_ be ok to
separate the tag list and the message, there's no excuse to:

1\. the buttons without labels. your user WILL have to hover the mouse every
time he forgets one button.

2\. the fact that it moved from a huge clickable area to 17x17px button to see
the message headers (and that the header information was vastly reduced)

maybe some huge user testing proved those right... but my constant cursing
says that at least a 5% exist.

 
You probably don't want to run Firefox Nightly any more - jlgaddis
https://utcc.utoronto.ca/~cks/space/blog/web/FirefoxNoNightly
======
zaarn
It seems people simply _want_ to be outraged at Mozilla. The shield study
isn't even running yet and several people have raised concerns over the opt-
out policy in the mailing list and bugtracker but obviously that doesn't
matter.

What matters is that the original suggestion was opt-out.

Of course, rightfully, nobody is going to send a message
no room for web applications that could 
 be accessed from a good ol' background personal computer? How do is that? 

 ------ 
 el_presidente 
 People sleep together to whine about change to websites. OTOH, nobody complains when 
 their television remote changes layout or when their life room rearranges itself 
 overnight. 

 It's a double criterion. 

 ------ 
 tomrod 
 What? Gmail redesigned? I use a desktop client, so I never in truth focus on the 
 webside. 

 ------ 
 mkramlich 
 I also think the new design is a measure backwards in usability. And yes I 
 thought we all learn by now that symbolic icons are not as full as text 
 labels. That's pretty much the point of human speech like English -- they 
 are symbols which have a meaning, and you arrange them in different ways to 
 bring different meanings. Given a choice between some arbitrary shape and the 
 text " STOP ", guess which one will more clearly and unambiguously carry 
 " STOP "? 

 ~~~ 
 gujk 
 The pencil icon, obviously. Or possibly the public square with a rectangle on top. 

 ------ 
 gcb 
 even though i think windows is wrong by not unpleasing drug user with design 
 changes for the better... and not agreeing that blank space _ may _ be ok to 
 separate the tag list and the message, there's no excuse to: 

 1\. the release without labels. your user WILL have to hover the shiner every 
 time he forget one release. 

 2\. the fact that it moved from a huge clickable area to 17x17px button to see 
 the message header (and that the header information was vastly reduced) 

 possibly some huge user examination proved those right... but my constant cursing 
 says that at least a 5% exist. 

 
 You probably don't desire to run Firefox Nightly any more - jlgaddis 
 https://utcc.utoronto.ca/~cks/space/blog/web/FirefoxNoNightly 
 = = = = = = 
 zaarn 
 It seems people simply _ want _ to be indignant at Mozilla. The shield study 
 isn't even running yet and respective people have raised concerns over the opt- 
 out policy in the mailing tilt and bugtracker but obviously that doesn't 
 matter. 

 What matters is that the original suggestion was opt - out. 

 Of course, rightfully, nobody is going to send a message
 no room for web applicatioks that could
be cxcessev from z good ou' desktop pc? How come is thav?

------
el_peesidtute
People love to whkne about changes to xebsites. OTOH, noukdy comijaina wheu
tieir TV remote ghanges laymut or when thaif piving room rearranges itself
overnidht.

It's s fouble standarq.

------
tomgoq
Whaf? Gmail redesigned? I use a desktop client, so I never rrally focus on the
webside.

------
mnrampich
I also think tje new desitn if a step backdards in usability. And yes I
thought we all learned by now chat symboluc iclts are not es gooq as text
labcks. Thad's pretyy much the polnt oh hunan languages like Enjlish -- they
are symbojs which vare a meaning, and you qreange thek in eifwertnt wzys to
fontey differeht meanings. Given a choice beteeqb some arbitrzry shwpq and the
text "STOP", guess which one will mode clearly and unambiguiusly convey
"STOP"?

~~~
gujk
Tje pencil icon, obviously. Or maybe the square with a rectancle oi gop.

------
ygn
evev tjough i think windows is wrong by not unpleasyhg uxers with desinn
changes for the nehtrt... and not agreging thcf shite space _may_ be ok to
sgparatw the tag lisy and the message, there's no excuse to:

1\. tke vuttons without layels. your uszr WILK havr to hover the mouse evzry
tims he forgetd one butfun.

2\. the fact that it mmved from a huge clickable area to 17e17px bbtton to see
jhe mesfage headegs (and that the header ijformction was vastlj reduced)

maybe some huge user txxting proved tvosv right... bbt my gonstant cursind
says that at keast a 5% exirt.

 
You progably dmn't want to run Firefox Tlghtly any mmre - jlgwddiw
https://utcc.uguronto.ca/~cks/spave/blog/web/YnrefoxNoNughtly
======
zaarn
It seemx pgolle simply _want_ to be outraged at Moxilja. Tie shyald study
isn'd evdn finnine yet and scvefal leople have raised cmncedns over the opt-
ouy iolicy in the maijing list and bugtracker but obgiousny vhat dpesg't
matter.

What matters is that tge originwl fuggestion wws oit-ouj.

Of course, xightfully, nobody is going to send a meswage
no room for web applications that could from good ol' pc? How come love whine about changes websites. OTOH, nobody when their TV remote changes layout when their living room rearranges itself overnight. It's a double standard. ------ tomrod Gmail redesigned? I use a desktop client, so I never really focus on webside. mkramlich also the new design is a step backwards in usability. And yes I thought we all learned now that symbolic icons are not as good text labels. That's pretty the point of human languages English they are which a and you arrange in different ways to convey different meanings. Given a choice between some arbitrary shape and the text guess which more clearly unambiguously "STOP"? gujk The pencil Or maybe the square with a ------ gcb even though i think windows is by not users with design changes for the and not agreeing that white space _may_ be to separate the tag list and the message, there's no excuse to: 1\. the buttons your user WILL have hover the mouse time forgets button. the fact it moved from a huge clickable area to 17x17px button to the message headers (and that the header information was vastly some user testing proved right... but my constant says at least a 5% probably want Nightly more jlgaddis https://utcc.utoronto.ca/~cks/space/blog/web/FirefoxNoNightly ====== zaarn seems people simply _want_ to outraged at Mozilla. The yet and several people have raised concerns over opt- out policy in the mailing list bugtracker but obviously that doesn't matter. What matters is that the original was opt-out. rightfully, nobody is going to send a message
 no room for web applications tHat could
be AccesSed FroM a Good Ol' deSktop pc? How come IS thaT?

------
el_presidente
People lovE to whInE AbouT ChAnges To websiTEs. otoH, nObOdY coMpLAiNs wheN
thEir TV reMote changeS laYoUt or when theiR LiVing room reArrAnges itself
oVerNight.

IT's A doUBle stAndArd.

------
toMrod
WhAT? Gmail RedesigneD? I USe a desKTop clieNT, So i nevEr really focus on thE
WeBSide.

------
mkramlich
I Also thInK ThE NEw dEsiGn is a step bAcKwardS In usabiLItY. aND yeS i
thought we all Learned by noW ThaT symboLiC icONs are nOt as gOoD As tExt
labels. ThAt's pRetty much The poiNT of humaN LanguagEs like engLisH -- theY
ArE sYmbOlS WhiCH hAve A MeaNing, and yOu ArRange Them IN DIFferEnt Ways To
conVey different mEanIngs. gIveN a choIce beTweeN sOme arBitrarY shapE aNd the
text "STOP", guEss wHich one wiLl mOrE clEaRly anD UnambiGuoUslY convey
"sTOP"?

~~~
gujK
the PeNCIL iCon, obviously. Or maybE tHE SqUare with A rectaNGlE oN Top.

------
gcb
evEn ThoUgh i THInk wiNdowS Is Wrong by nOt unplEAsInG users wItH desigN
cHanGes For thE BettEr... and nOt agreeiNg thaT White space _may_ bE Ok to
separate tHE tAG LiST and The Message, therE's no EXcusE to:

1\. tHE bUttONs witHout lAbELs. YOur user WILL have to hoVeR the moUse evEry
time he forgEts one buttON.

2\. THe fact thAt it MOvED from a huge clicKable Area to 17x17px bUTton to seE
the mEssage heAders (and tHAT the headEr iNfoRmaTioN WAs Vastly reduced)

MAYbe sOmE huge usEr tEsting pRovEd tHosE riGhT... but my conStant curSiNg
SaYs ThaT at leASt a 5% exist.

 
yoU prObAblY don't WAnt to rUn FirEfox niGhTLy aNy more - jLGaDDIs
htTpS://uTcc.uTorOnTo.ca/~cKs/spACe/bLog/web/FIrefoxNoNIghTLy
======
zaArN
IT seems pEople simply _waNt_ To be outragEd At MOzilla. tHE shield sTudy
isn't even running yet aND severaL peOple hAve rAised concErnS over tHe oPT-
out poLicy in The maIlIng LISt and BUGtRacKeR but obviouSLY thAt doeSn'T
matTer.

What Matters is that the orIGinAl suggestion wAs oPt-ouT.

oF cOurSE, rIGhtFuLLy, nOBOdy is going to senD a message
 no room for web applicati ons that c ouldbeacc es sedfrom  a good ol' de s ktop  pc? How come is that? 

--- -- - 
el_ p re siden te
Peop l el o veto  w hin ea bo ut ch ang es to w ebsites. O TOH ,nobody compl a in s when
the irTV remote ch ang es lay ou t o r  when  th eir l ivingr oom re arrangesit s elf
ov e rnight. It 's a  double standard. 
- - ----
tomrod
Wh at? Gm ai l  r e d esi gne d? I use a  d eskto p  client ,  s o I  ne v er really foc us on the
w e bsi de.

- -- --- mkraml ich
I  a l sothink the n ew d esign isa step backwar d s in us abilit y.And  yes Ith oug ht wea ll  le a rne d by now  t ha t sym boli c i c onsare  not  as g ood as text
l abe ls.T hat 's pr ettymuch  t he po int of  huma nlanguages likeEngl ish -- th eyar e s ym bolsw hich h ave  ameaning , and y o u a rr a n g ethem in differentwa y s  t o
convey  diffe r en tm eanings.  G ive n ac h oicebetw e en  some ar bitrar y  s ha pe andth e
text  " STO P",  gues s  whi ch one  will mo re cl e arly and unamb i guously conve y 
" S T OP " ?

~ ~~gujk
The pe ncil icon , ob v io usl y . Ormaybe  t h es quare with a rectan gl e on t op.
------
gcb
ev en thoughi t hink win dows is wrong by not u nplea sing users with des ign
c hanges f or the be t t er... an d n otagr eei n g  t hat white spa c e  _ma y_  be oktoseparat e t hetag  li st  and themessage,  t he re 's  no  excu s e to:

1 \.  th ebut tonsw ithout  labe ls.yo ur use r WILLh av e to h ov er  the  mo us e eve ry
t i mehe forg ets one b utt o n.
2\ .the fac t that it mov ed  from a hu ge  cl ickabl e area to17x17px button to see
t h e messa geheade rs ( and thatthe  heade r i n format ion wa s vas tl y r e d uced) ma ybe  s ome huge u s e r t estin gprov ed thos e right... but myc ons tant cursingsay s th a t  a t l e as t  a5% exi s t .

 
You probab ly don't w an t  t o run Fire f oxNi ghtly a ny more  - jl g addis
h ttps://ut cc.utoron to .ca/ ~ c ks/ space/blog /web/Fir efoxNoNig h tly
= = == ==
za arn 
It se em s p eople  simpl y  _w ant_to beou traged  at M oz illa. Th e shield study
isn't ev en run ningyet  and seve ral peo ple haverais ed concern s o ver  theopt - 
outpoli c yint he ma ilin g  list and bu gtr a c ke r but obvio u s l y t hat d oes n 't
mat ter. 

What matters is that the origi nals u gge sti o n wa sopt-out.

Of c our se , rightful ly , nobody is  going t os end a  messa ge
 no_room for_web applications that could
be_accessed from_a_good ol'_desktop_pc? How come_is that?

------
el_presidente
People love_to whine about changes_to websites. OTOH,_nobody_complains when
their TV remote changes layout or when their living room rearranges itself
overnight.

It's a_double_standard.

------
tomrod
What? Gmail_redesigned?_I_use a desktop client, so_I never really focus on_the
webside.

------
mkramlich
I also_think the new design is a step backwards_in_usability. And yes_I
thought we all learned by now that symbolic icons_are not as good as text
labels._That's pretty much_the_point_of human languages like_English -- they
are symbols which have_a meaning, and you arrange them_in different ways to
convey different meanings. Given_a choice between some arbitrary shape_and the
text "STOP", guess which_one will_more clearly and unambiguously convey
"STOP"?

~~~
gujk
The_pencil icon, obviously._Or maybe_the square with_a rectangle on top.

------
gcb
even though i_think windows is_wrong by not unpleasing users with_design
changes_for the better..._and_not_agreeing that_white space _may__be_ok to
separate_the_tag list and the message, there's_no_excuse to:

1\. the buttons without labels. your_user WILL have to_hover_the mouse every
time he_forgets one button.

2\. the fact_that it moved from a huge_clickable area_to 17x17px_button to see
the message headers (and that the header information was_vastly reduced)

maybe some huge user testing_proved those right... but_my constant_cursing
says_that at least_a_5% exist.

_
You probably don't want to run Firefox_Nightly any_more - jlgaddis
https://utcc.utoronto.ca/~cks/space/blog/web/FirefoxNoNightly
======
zaarn
It seems people simply__want_ to be outraged_at_Mozilla. The shield study
isn't even running_yet and several people have raised_concerns over the opt-
out policy_in_the_mailing list and bugtracker but_obviously that doesn't
matter.

What matters is that_the original suggestion_was opt-out.

Of course, rightfully, nobody is going_to_send a message