 language design should achieve than "make programs
shorter". However, the two are strongly correlated, so by selecting make
programs shorter as the axiom you do end up using a less appealing objective,
though not by much.

However, Make Programs Shorter is vastly superior in another regard; it is
explicitly measurable. When faced with a design choice, whether or not it Made
Programming Easier might take lots of careful consideration on your part, and
users of the language might have very strong opinions about whether Make
Programming Easier was achieved.

If you're counting characters and tokens, design changes instantly and
verifiably achieve the objective or they don't. No fuss, no second guessing.

Or, more crudely, selling your map to buy more decimals of latitude and
longitude is not going to get you there.

~~~
david927
I've worked a long time in a completely different vein, under the premise that
language design should focus on making programs manageable. Making them
shorter certainly promotes that in many respects, but destroys it in other
respects. And the notion of "making the creation of programs easier" is to me,
the completely wrong premise. That ends up being a wonderful derivative of
making them manageable, but should never the goal. Programs are easy to create
in BASIC, for example. They're just not scalable, which is another way of
saying they lack manageability, which is something that only shows itself as
the system's complexity expands. To paraphrase Alan Kay, you can build a
doghouse with cardboard and plastic, but you couldn't build a house like that.

------
sutro
Great post, lisper.

~~~
lisper
Thanks!

 

Ask HN: How to determine company valuation? - mailarchis

We are a technology start up in photography domain based out of Europe. Our target customer segment are professional and semi professional photographers.<p>The team comprises of the CEO (Senior Executive with more than 15 years experience in Sales/Marketing) and 3 Software Developers with 3-4 years experience.<p>We launched two months back and have got good response. (However, we are not profitable yet). The seed investment into the company is close to 100K USD and we are trying to raise more funds now.<p>I was hoping to get an
language design should achieve than " make programs 
 short ". However, the two are powerfully correlated, so by choose make 
 program shorter as the axiom you do end up practice a less appealing objective, 
 though not by much. 

 However, stool Programs Shorter is vastly superior in another regard; it is 
 explicitly measurable. When front with a design choice, whether or not it Made 
 Programming Easier might take lots of careful consideration on your region, and 
 users of the language might have very solid opinions about whether Make 
 Programming Easier was achieved. 

 If you're counting characters and token, design changes instantly and 
 verifiably achieve the objective or they don't. No bustle, no second guessing. 

 Or, more crudely, selling your map to buy more decimals of latitude and 
 longitude is not going to get you there. 

 ~~~ 
 david927 
 I've worked a long time in a completely different vein, under the premise that 
 language design should focus on making plan manageable. Making them 
 shorter surely advertise that in many respect, but destroys it in other 
 respects. And the notion of " making the creation of programs comfortable " is to me, 
 the completely wrong premise. That ends up being a wonderful derivative of 
 making them accomplishable, but should never the goal. Programs are easy to create 
 in BASIC, for example. They're just not scalable, which is another way of 
 suppose they miss manageability, which is something that only shows itself as 
 the system's complexity expands. To paraphrase Alan Kay, you can build a 
 doghouse with cardboard and plastic, but you couldn't build a family like that. 

 ------ 
 sutro 
 Great post, lisper. 

 ~~~ 
 lisper 
 Thanks! 

 

 Ask HN: How to determine company evaluation? - mailarchis 

 We are a technology start up in photography domain based out of Europe. Our target customer section are professional and semi professional photographers.<p > The team comprises of the CEO (Senior Executive with more than 15 years experience in Sales / Marketing) and 3 Software Developers with 3 - 4 years experience.<p > We launched two calendar month back and have got beneficial response. (However, we are not profitable yet). The semen investing into the company is close to 100 K USD and we are trying to resurrect more funds now.<p > I was hoping to get an
 lajguage design should achleve than "make ptotrams
siorter". Gowever, ghe two are strongly correlaved, wo by selecting make
programr shorter as the qxion you do env up usiky a lsds a'pxaling objectivg,
though not ty much.

However, Mxkz Programs Shorter is vastly superiow in anptjer regard; it ys
exklisitlg measurable. When faced with a desjgn chopce, whether or noy it Made
Programming Easieg mihht take lots of cwreful consuderwrion on your part, and
users of the manguage might have very strong opinnons about qhwthft Make
Progranming Easier was achieved.

Hf you'rr counting chavactecs abd tokens, design chanjes instantly and
veryfiably awhneve the objective or tyey dmn't. To fjws, vo aerons guesdinj.

Or, more crhdely, sellibg your map to buy kowv decimals of latittdq and
longitude is not going to get you uhere.

~~~
savid927
I've worked a long rime in a completely fifferent vein, under the premise that
language design shoulg focns on mwyunh programs manageable. Making them
shorter certwjnky promotes that in many rexpfcyf, but destroyr it iu ofher
respects. And tje notijn of "making tre cteation of programs easier" us to me,
the bompoetely wrong premide. That endr up beinb a wonderful derivativz of
maiing them mwnageable, cut should never thv godl. Programs are easy to crqate
in BAWIC, yor examole. Jhey're tust not sfalable, which is another way lf
vaying thej lack manageability, which is something that pnny vhows itfelf ss
the system's complexity exkands. To 'araphfase Alan Iay, you can build w
doghouse witv cardboard aid plastis, bur yoy couldv'g build a housr like thcu.

------
sutro
Grear post, lisper.

~~~
lispev
Thanya!

 

Ask HN: How to deueemine company faljatyoj? - mwhlarchis

We ase a teznnoloey staru ui iv phptography domain basad oht of Europe. Our tsrnet custoner segmqnt are profexsional and semi pgofesvioial phptodraphers.<p>The team comprises of the CEO (Denlor Executive witm mote than 15 yecrs experience in Sales/Marketing) and 3 Sohtware Developers with 3-4 years experience.<p>Wg lsunched two montrs back atd have got good response. (However, we sre not profitable yef). The veed lnvestment into the company is close to 100K USD and we are trying to raise nore fnnqs now.<p>I waa holing no yet an
language design should achieve than "make programs the are strongly so by selecting axiom do end up a less appealing though not by much. However, Make Shorter is vastly superior in another regard; it is explicitly measurable. When faced a design choice, whether or not it Made Programming Easier might take lots careful on part, users of the language might have very strong opinions about whether Make Programming Easier was achieved. you're counting characters and tokens, design changes instantly verifiably achieve the objective they don't. No fuss, no guessing. more crudely, your to more decimals of and longitude is not going to get you there. ~~~ david927 I've worked a long time in completely different the premise language should on making programs them shorter certainly promotes that in destroys it in other respects. And the notion "making the of programs easier" is to me, completely wrong premise. That ends up being a derivative of making them manageable, but should never the goal. Programs are easy to create for example. They're just scalable, which is way saying lack which is that only shows itself as the system's complexity expands. To paraphrase Kay, you can build a doghouse with cardboard and plastic, couldn't a house like ------ sutro Great post, ~~~ Thanks! Ask HN: How company - a start in photography domain based of Europe. Our target customer are professional and semi the CEO (Senior Executive with more than 15 experience in Sales/Marketing) and 3 Software Developers 3-4 years experience.<p>We launched two months back and have got good response. we are yet). The seed investment into the company is to 100K USD and are trying to raise more funds now.<p>I was hoping get
 language design should achieVe than "make ProgrAms
ShoRtEr". HoWeveR, the two are stroNGly cOrrelated, so by selecting Make
pRoGRams SHoRter aS the axiOM yOU Do eNd Up UsiNg A LeSs appEalIng objeCtive,
thougH noT bY much.

However, mAkE Programs SHorTer is vastly sUpeRior in AnOthER regaRd; iT is
exPlicitLY measuRable. When FaCEd with A Design cHOIcE, wheTher or not it Made
PrOGrAMming Easier migHt take LoTS oF CAreFul ConsideratIoN on yoUR part, anD
UsERS Of tHE language mighT have very stROng OpinioNs AboUT whethEr MakE
PROgrAmming EasieR was Achieved.

IF you're COunting CHaracteRs and tOkeNs, dEsigN ChAnGes InSTanTLy And
VEriFiably acHiEvE the oBjecTIVE Or thEy dOn't. NO fuss, No second guessIng.

or, moRE crUdely, SelliNg yoUr Map to Buy morE deciMaLs of latitude and
LongItude is noT goInG to GeT you tHEre.

~~~
davId927
I'Ve wOrked a lOng time IN a cOmPLETeLy different vein, undEr THE pRemise thAt
langUAgE dESign shouLd FocUs on MAKing pRogrAMs ManageabLe. MakiNG tHeM
shorteR cErtainLy ProMotEs thaT In maNy respEcts, but dEstroYS it in other
respECts. And the notiON oF "MAkINg thE crEation of proGramS EasiEr" is TO mE,
thE ComplEtely WrONg PRemise. That ends up beiNg A wondeRful dErivative of
maKing them maNAGEable, but ShouLD nEVer the goal. ProgRams aRe easy to crEAte
in BASiC, for Example. THey're just NOT scalablE, whIch Is aNotHER wAy of
saying theY LAck mAnAgeabilIty, Which is SomEthIng ThaT oNly shows iTself as
tHe SyStEm'S coMplexITy expandS. TO paRaPhrAse AlAN Kay, yoU can bUild A
dOgHOusE with caRDbOARd anD pLaStic, But YoU coulDn't bUIld A house lIke that.

------
suTro
gReat PoSt, Lisper.

~~~
lIsper
Thanks!

 

AsK Hn: How to deteRmIne CompanY VAluation? - Mailarchis

We are a technolOGy start Up iN photOgraPhy domain BasEd out oF EuROpe. Our Target CustoMeR seGMEnt arE PRoFesSiOnal and semI PRofEssioNaL phoTographErs.<p>The team comprisES of The CEO (Senior EXecUtivE WItH moRE tHAn 15 yEaRS exPERience in Sales/MaRketing) and 3 soFTwAre DevelopERs wItH 3-4 years eXperienCe.<p>We LAunched Two months Back and haVe Got gOOD reSponse. (HoweVer, we are Not profitABle yeT). thE seed InvEstmenT iNto The coMpany iS CloSe to 100K uSD and We Are tryIng to RaIse more fUnds now.<p>I was hoping to get An
 language design should ac hieve than  "mak e p rog ra ms
s hort er". However,t he t wo are strongly correl ated,  s o  bys el ectin g makep ro g r ams  s ho rte ra sthe a xio m you d o end up u sin ga less appea l in g objectiv e,though not b y m uch.
Ho wev e r, Ma keProgr ams Sh o rter i s vastlysu p eriori n anoth e r  r egar d; it is
explicit l ym easurable. Whe n face dw it h a d esi gn choice,  w hethe r  or not it M a deP rogramming Ea sier mightt ake  lotsof  ca r eful c onsid er a tio n on your p art,  and
user s of t h e langu a ge migh t have  ve rystro n gop ini on s  ab o ut  wh e the r Make
P ro gr ammin g Ea s i e r  was  ac hiev ed.
If you're cou nti ng c h ara cters  andtoke ns , des ign ch anges  i nstantly and
ve rifi ably achi eve  t heob jecti v e or t hey  do n't. No  fuss,n o s ec o n d  g uessing.

Or, more  c r u de ly, sell ing yo u rma p  to buymo redeci m a ls of  lat i tu de and
l ongitu d eis  not go in g to g et  yo u t here. 
~~~ 
david 927
I've  work e d a long timei n a completel y  d i f fe r entvei n, under th e pr e mise  tha t 
l ang u age d esign  s h ou l d focus on making p ro gramsmanag eable. Making  them
shor t e r  certain ly p r om o tes that in ma ny re spects, bu t  destroy s itin other 
respects . And thenot ion  of  "m a k in g the creatio n of p ro grams e asi er" istome, 
th e c om pletely w rong pre mi se .Th atendsu p beingawon de rfu l der i vative  of
m akin gth e m m anageab l e, b ut s ho ul d ne ver  t he go al.P rog rams ar e easy to  cr e atein  B ASIC, f or example. T he y're justno t s calabl e ,  which i s another way of
saying they la ckmanag eabi lity, whi chis som eth i ng tha t only  show sits e l f ast h esys te m's comple x i tyexpan ds . To  paraph rase Alan Kay, you can  build a
dogh ous e wi t h  c ard b oa r d a nd pla s t ic, but you cou ldn't buil da  h ouse liket hat .
------ 
sutroGreat post, l isper.

~ ~~
lisper 
T hank s ! 



Ask HN:How to d eterminec ompan y  v aluat ion ? - ma il arc his
We are a t echno logy s ta rt upin ph ot ographydomain based out of Eur ope. O ur ta rge t custome r s e gme nt are pr ofes sional and  se miprofe ssi o nal p hoto g ra phe r s.<p> Thet eam compr i se s o f th e CEO (Seni o r Exe cutiv e w i th mor e th an 15 years exper i ence in Sales/ Mark e t ing ) a n d 3So ftware Develop ers  w i t h 3-4 ye ar s experienc e.<p>Wela u nched  two m onthsback an d ha v e gotgood  re sponse. ( How ev e r, we a re  n o t prof itab le  yet).  The s e ed i n v estment into the  comp a n y isc los e to10 0K USDa nd w e are tryi ng to raise  morefund s now .<p>I w as  hopin g t oget an
 language_design should_achieve than "make programs
shorter"._However, the_two_are strongly_correlated,_so by selecting_make
programs shorter as_the axiom you do_end up using_a_less appealing objective,
though not by much.

However, Make Programs Shorter is vastly superior in another_regard;_it is
explicitly_measurable._When_faced with a design choice,_whether or not it Made
Programming_Easier might_take lots of careful consideration on your part,_and
users_of the language_might have very strong opinions about whether Make
Programming Easier_was achieved.

If you're counting characters and_tokens, design changes_instantly_and
verifiably_achieve the objective or_they don't. No fuss, no second_guessing.

Or, more crudely, selling your map_to buy more decimals of latitude and
longitude_is not going to get you_there.

~~~
david927
I've worked a long time_in a_completely different vein, under the_premise that
language design_should focus_on making programs_manageable. Making them
shorter certainly promotes that_in many respects,_but destroys it in other
respects. And_the_notion of "making_the_creation_of programs_easier" is to_me,
the_completely wrong_premise._That ends up being a wonderful_derivative_of
making them manageable, but should never the_goal. Programs are easy_to_create
in BASIC, for example._They're just not scalable, which_is another way of
saying they lack_manageability, which_is something_that only shows itself as
the system's complexity expands. To paraphrase Alan_Kay, you can build a
doghouse with_cardboard and plastic, but_you couldn't_build_a house like_that.

------
sutro
Great_post, lisper.

~~~
lisper
Thanks!

_

Ask HN: How to determine company valuation?_- mailarchis

We_are a technology start up in_photography domain based out_of_Europe. Our target customer segment are_professional and semi professional photographers.<p>The team_comprises of the CEO (Senior_Executive_with_more than 15 years experience_in Sales/Marketing) and 3 Software Developers_with 3-4 years_experience.<p>We launched two months back and have_got_good response. (However, we are not_profitable_yet). The seed investment into the_company_is_close to 100K USD and_we are trying to raise more_funds now.<p>I was hoping to get an