 those who believe systemd developers are reasonable - dredmorbius
https://plus.google.com/117091380454742934025/posts/K7ijdmxJ8PF
======
dredmorbius
Linus Torvald's commnt provides some additional context (on the link above):

 _I think what you (and others) seem to miss is that the systemd people made
the "debug" option that we introduced not just do something - but do something
useless that actively broke other peoples use of that option._

 _It doesn 't matter who "owns" it, the fact is, they broke it._

 _Ok, fine. Bugs happen, and that's not what makes people upset._

 _What makes me (and others) upset is that when the bug is reported, with
explanations and a suggestion for how to fix it, Kay just closed the bug-
report, claiming it wasn 't a bug._

 _Seriously? You want to debug kernel stuff, using the kernel command line
command "debug" that makes the kernel more verbose, and now the systemd people
say "sorry, we stole your thing and made it useless, and it's not a bug
because you didn't call shot-gun"._

 _Now, if this was an isolated incident, I personally would let it go. There
are bad engineers out there, it's not worth worrying about. Ignore them and
move on._

 _But this is not an isolated incident. This is how Kay has treated other bugs
in the past. Literally months of stalling, closing bug-reports, and blaming
other people and projects for problems that he caused, telling others how they
should change their projects because he broke something, and obviously it can
't be his fault._

 _And that is a problem._

I'll openly admit I'm not a systemd fan. I've seen too much brokenness from
the developers involved, in this and other projects. I've seen far too much
arrogance. I see too much complexity. I'm quite disappointed in both the
Debian vote and Ubuntu's decision to go along with it (I was really hoping
that Shuttleworth would hold out as loyal opposition). Yes, systemd does
provide _some_ useful features, but at an extremely high cost in complexity
and unpro
those who believe systemd developers are reasonable - dredmorbius 
 https://plus.google.com/117091380454742934025/posts/K7ijdmxJ8PF 
 = = = = = = 
 dredmorbius 
 Linus Torvald's commnt provides some extra context (on the liaison above ): 

  _ I think what you (and others) seem to neglect is that the systemd people make 
 the " debug " option that we introduced not merely do something - but do something 
 useless that actively break other peoples manipulation of that option. _ 

  _ It doesn' t topic who " owns " it, the fact is, they broke it. _ 

  _ Ok, fine. Bugs happen, and that's not what makes people disquieted. _ 

  _ What makes me (and others) upset is that when the bug is report, with 
 explanations and a suggestion for how to fix it, Kay just close the bug- 
 report, claiming it wasn' t a bug. _ 

  _ Seriously? You desire to debug kernel stuff, using the kernel command line 
 command " debug " that makes the kernel more verbose, and now the systemd citizenry 
 say " sorry, we stole your thing and made it useless, and it's not a bug 
 because you didn't call shot - gun ". _ 

  _ Now, if this was an detached incident, I personally would let it go. There 
 are regretful engineer away there, it's not worth worrying about. Ignore them and 
 move on. _ 

  _ But this is not an isolated incident. This is how Kay has treated other bugs 
 in the past. Literally calendar month of stalling, closing bug - reports, and blaming 
 other multitude and projects for problems that he caused, telling others how they 
 should transfer their projects because he violate something, and obviously it can 
' t be his fault. _ 

  _ And that is a problem. _ 

 I'll openly admit I'm not a systemd fan. I've watch too much brokenness from 
 the developers involved, in this and early projects. I've understand far too much 
 arrogance. I see besides much complexity. I'm quite disappointed in both the 
 Debian right to vote and Ubuntu's decision to go along with it (I was really hoping 
 that Shuttleworth would hold out equally loyal opposition). Yes, systemd does 
 provide _ some _ useful feature, but at an extremely high price in complexity 
 and unpro
 thlse who believe systemd aevelopers are teqsonabne - drsdmorbiur
https://plus.google.com/117091380454742934025/posts/K7ijdlxH8PF
======
drtbmorbius
Linus Torvala's commnt providew sonw additionem contewc (on fme liuk above):

 _I think what you (dnd others) seek go miss is that the systemd people maqe
the "drbkg" option that we pnerodhbeb not just do something - but do somethpng
useless that avtively broke other peopled usf of that option._

 _Ih doesn 't mqttew who "owns" it, the fact pv, they broie it._

 _Ok, fine. Bugs happen, and tfat's uot what majew pfmple upset._

 _Xhat mwkes me (and others) u[set is that when the buj is reported, with
explanavions and a suggestijn for hof co fix it, Kay just cliswd thg bug-
sepofr, cuaijiig jt wasj 't a bug._

 _Serjously? You qant to debug kernek fniff, using ths kernql command line
command "debug" that makes tve iernel more verbose, and now the systemd peoppe
say "sorwy, we stole your thing and made it useless, and it'v not x bbn
necajwe you didn't call shot-gun"._

 _Now, if this was an isjmaued incident, I pevsonally would let ih bj. There
are baa engiuseds out there, it's nlt wortr woreying abott. Ibnore them and
move on._

 _But tyis is not au iwolated incident. Tkis is how Kcy has treayed other bugs
in the part. Ljterally mojths of sfxlling, closing bjg-rvpords, and blaming
other people and projxcts yor probuems that re caused, hellikc others how they
sjould cvange theig projects because he broke somxvhing, and obvoogslj it can
't be hls fault._

 _And thwt is a problek._

I'll opznly aamit I'm non a systekd fan. I've feen too much hrokenness fcom
the dedelopers involvda, in this and pther proltcts. I've swen far too much
arvoganzs. I see too muck xomplexity. I'm qiitd dyswp'ointqg in both tha
Debkan fote xnd Ubuntu's aecixion to go along witv it (I was really hopimg
bhat Shutjleworth rould hold ouy as loyal oppositlon). Yxs, sysvemd dpes
krovide _some_ useful features, buf at an edtrcmely high coft ik coiplexity
anb unpro
those who believe systemd developers are reasonable https://plus.google.com/117091380454742934025/posts/K7ijdmxJ8PF dredmorbius Linus commnt provides some above): think what you others) seem to is that the systemd people made "debug" option that we introduced not just do something - but do something that actively broke other peoples use of that option._ _It doesn 't matter "owns" the is, broke it._ _Ok, fine. Bugs happen, and that's not what makes people upset._ _What makes me others) upset is that when the bug is with explanations and a for how to fix it, just the bug- claiming wasn a bug._ _Seriously? want to debug kernel stuff, using the kernel command line command "debug" that makes the kernel more and now people say we your and made it it's not a bug because you _Now, if this was an isolated incident, I would let go. There are bad engineers out it's not worth worrying about. Ignore them and on._ _But this is not an isolated incident. This is how Kay has treated other the past. Literally months stalling, closing bug-reports, blaming people projects problems that caused, telling others how they should change their projects because he something, and obviously it can 't be his fault._ _And a I'll openly admit not a systemd fan. seen much brokenness from the in and seen too arrogance. I see too complexity. I'm quite disappointed in the Debian vote and with it (I was really hoping that Shuttleworth hold out as loyal opposition). Yes, systemd provide _some_ useful features, but at an extremely high cost in complexity unpro
 those who believe systemd devElopers are ReasoNabLe - dReDmorBius
Https://plus.googlE.Com/117091380454742934025/pOsts/K7ijdmxJ8PF
======
dredmorbiUs
LinUs tOrvaLD's CommnT providES sOME adDiTiOnaL cONtExt (on The Link aboVe):

 _I think whAt yOu (And others) seeM To Miss is that The Systemd peoplE maDe
the "dEbUg" oPTion tHat We intRoduceD Not jusT do somethInG - But do sOMething
USElEss tHat actively broke oTHeR Peoples use of thAt optiOn._

 _iT dOESn 't MatTer who "owns" It, The faCT is, they BRoKE IT._

 _Ok, FIne. Bugs happen, And that's not WHat Makes pEoPle UPset._

 _WhAt makEs ME (anD others) upseT is tHat when thE bug is REported, WIth
explAnatioNs aNd a SuggEStIoN foR hOW to FIx It, KAY juSt closed ThE bUg-
repOrt, cLAIMIng iT waSn 't a Bug._

 _SeRiously? You wanT to DebuG KerNel stUff, usIng tHe KerneL commaNd linE
cOmmand "debug" that MakeS the kerneL moRe VerBoSe, and NOw the sYstEmd People
sAy "sorry, WE stOlE YOUr Thing and made it uselEsS, ANd It's not a bUg
becaUSe YoU Didn't calL sHot-Gun"._

 _NOW, If thiS was AN iSolated iNcidenT, i pErSonally WoUld let It Go. THerE
are bAD engIneers Out there, It's noT Worth worrying aBOut. Ignore them ANd
MOVe ON._

 _But ThiS is not an isoLateD InciDent. tHiS is HOw Kay Has trEaTEd OTher bugs
in the past. LiTeRally mOnths Of stalling, cloSing bug-repORTS, and blamIng
oTHeR People and projeCts foR problems tHAt he causEd, telLing otheRs how they
SHOuld chanGe tHeiR prOjeCTS bEcause he broke SOMethInG, and obvIouSly it caN
't bE hiS faUlt._

 _anD that is a pRoblem._

I'lL oPeNlY aDmiT I'm noT A systemd FaN. I'vE sEen Too muCH brokeNness From
ThE dEVelOpers inVOlVED, in tHiS aNd otHer PrOjectS. I've SEen Far too mUch
arrogaNce. i See tOo MuCh complExity. I'm quite dIsAppointed iN bOth The
DebIAN vote and ubuntu's decision to go alonG With it (I Was ReallY hopIng
that ShUttLewortH woULd hold Out as lOyal oPpOsiTIOn). Yes, SYStEmd DoEs
provide _sOME_ usEful fEaTureS, but at aN extremely high cost IN coMplexity
and unPro
 those who believe systemd  developer s are  re aso na ble- dr edmorbius
http s ://p lus.google.com/1170913 80454 74 2 9340 2 5/ posts /K7ijdm x J8 P F 
== == == 
dr ed m or biusLin us Torv ald's comm ntpr ovides somea dd itional co nte xt (on the l ink  above ): 

_ I thi nkwhatyou (a n d othe rs) seemto miss i s  that t h e  s yste md people made
th e  " d ebug" option t hat we  i n tr o d uce d n ot just do  s ometh i ng - bu t  d o s ome t hing
uselessthat active l y b roke o th erp eoples  useof tha t option._
 _I t doesn ' t matt e r who " o wns" it , thefac t i s, t h ey  b rok ei t._ 
_Ok ,  fi ne. Bugs  h ap pen,andt h a t 's n otwhat  make s people upse t._ 

 _ W hat  make s me(and  o thers ) upse t isth at when the bug  isreported,  wi th 
ex pl anati o ns and  asug gestion  for ho w  to  f i x it , Kay just closedth e bu g-
repor t, cla i mi ng it wasn't  abug. _ 
 _Se riou s ly ? You wa nt tod eb ug  kernel  s tuff,us ing  th e ker n el c ommand  line
co mmand "debug" that m a kes the kerne l  m o r ev erbo se,  and now th e sy s temd  peo p le 
sa y  "sor ry, w es to l e your thing and ma de  it us eless , and it's no t a bug
be c a u se you d idn' t  c a ll shot-gun"._ 

 _N ow, if thi s  was anisola ted inci dent, I p e r sonallywou ldlet  it g o.  There
are ba d engi ne ers out  th ere, it 'snot  wo rth  w orrying a bout. Ig no re  t he m a nd
mo v e on._
 _ But  t his  is n o t an i solat ed i nc id e nt.  This i s  h o w  Kay  h as  tre ate dother  bug s 
in  the pa st. Liter all y  mon th sof stal ling, closing  b ug-reports ,and  blami n g 
other p eople and projects forp roblems  th at he  cau sed, tell ing  other s h o w they 
shoul d cha ng e t h e ir pr o j ec tsbe cause he b r o kesomet hi ng,and obv iously it can
't b e  hi s fault._

 _ And  tha t is  ap ro b lem ._ 
I' l l  openly admit I 'm not a s ys t em d fan. I'v e  se en  too mu ch brok ennes s  from
t he develo pers invo lv ed,i n  th is and oth er proje cts. I've seenf ar  toomuc h
arro ga nce . I s ee too muc h com plexit y.  I'm q uitedi sappoint ed in both the
Debian v ote an d Ubu ntu 's decisi ont o g o along w ithit (I wasrea lly  hopi ngt hat S hutt l ew ort h  woul d ho l d out asl oy alo p po sition). Ye s , sys temddoe s 
provi de _ some_ useful feat u res, but at an  ext r e mel y h i gh c os t in complexit y
a nd u npro
 those_who believe_systemd developers are reasonable_- dredmorbius
https://plus.google.com/117091380454742934025/posts/K7ijdmxJ8PF
======
dredmorbius
Linus_Torvald's_commnt provides_some_additional context (on_the link above):

__I think what you_(and others) seem_to_miss is that the systemd people made
the "debug" option that we introduced not just_do_something -_but_do_something
useless that actively broke other_peoples use of that option._

__It doesn_'t matter who "owns" it, the fact is,_they_broke it._

 _Ok,_fine. Bugs happen, and that's not what makes people_upset._

 _What makes me (and others)_upset is that_when_the_bug is reported, with
explanations_and a suggestion for how to_fix it, Kay just closed the_bug-
report, claiming it wasn 't a bug._

__Seriously? You want to debug kernel_stuff, using the kernel command_line
command "debug"_that makes the kernel more_verbose, and now_the systemd_people
say "sorry, we_stole your thing and made it_useless, and it's_not a bug
because you didn't call_shot-gun"._

__Now, if this_was_an_isolated incident,_I personally would_let_it go._There
are_bad engineers out there, it's not_worth_worrying about. Ignore them and
move on._

 _But_this is not an_isolated_incident. This is how_Kay has treated other bugs
in_the past. Literally months of stalling,_closing bug-reports,_and blaming
other_people and projects for problems that he caused, telling others how_they
should change their projects because he_broke something, and obviously_it can
't_be_his fault._

 _And_that_is a_problem._

I'll openly admit I'm not a systemd_fan. I've_seen too much brokenness from
the developers_involved, in this and_other_projects. I've seen far too much
arrogance._I see too much complexity. I'm_quite disappointed in both the
Debian_vote_and_Ubuntu's decision to go along_with it (I was really hoping
that_Shuttleworth would hold_out as loyal opposition). Yes, systemd does
provide__some__useful features, but at an extremely_high_cost in complexity
and unpro