psychological research" ALL THE TIME. It's how
they optimize their content to get people to spend more time on their sites,
or spend more money, or whatever they want.

If anyone objects to this, they object to basically the entire modern web.

~~~
TeMPOraL
Exactly. I find this situation to be an example of ridiculous pattern
matching. Is it published? Then it's a psychological experiment, and needs to
be evaluated by an ethics board. Is it just A/B testing? Then it's not
"science", so no need for ethics board.

~~~
dragonwriter
So as long as you aren't publishing the results of your experimentation, none
of the ethics that apply to experimenting on humans apply?

That's an...interesting...theory.

~~~
azakai
Any A/B test is "experimentation on humans". Facebook and all other web giants
constantly do such behavioral studies. The only difference is that this one
was published.

In other words, if someone argues that this was unethical experimentation on
humans, then there are 1,000 other studies we never heard of that are far, far
worse. But we know they exist.

It doesn't make sense to argue that. Websites have to experiment with
different ways of doing things, and seeing how that affects their users. This
isn't just a web thing either, of course - businesses need to try different
things in order to optimize themselves. And to measure which is the best to
get people to spend more.

------
ameza
I'm torn about this. In some ways, I can see how mental health issues can be
detected which can hopefully help us avoid these horrifying events (mass
shootings off the top of my head). But then again, I can see how the Army or
the government in general can control any type of popular uprisings. FB,
Twitter, etc have given us tools to connect and join in efforts to fix what is
wrong (I'm thinking the Middle East though that can be said about the Tea
Party or even Occupy movement). If the price is right, FB can hand over that
power (i.e. NSA) or through these secret courts, the Army/government can have
direct control of FB. It's crazy to think that this only occurs in countries
like
psychological research " ALL THE TIME. It's how 
 they optimize their content to get people to spend more meter on their web site, 
 or spend more money, or whatever they want. 

 If anyone objects to this, they object to basically the entire advanced web. 

 ~~~ 
 TeMPOraL 
 precisely. I find this situation to be an model of ridiculous pattern 
 matching. Is it publish? Then it's a psychological experiment, and needs to 
 be evaluated by an ethic board. Is it just A / B testing? Then it's not 
 " science ", thus no need for ethics board. 

 ~~~ 
 dragonwriter 
 indeed as long as you aren't publishing the results of your experimentation, none 
 of the ethical motive that apply to experimenting on humans apply? 

 That's an... interesting... theory. 

 ~~~ 
 azakai 
 Any A / b-complex vitamin test is " experimentation on humans ". Facebook and all other web giant star 
 constantly do such behavioral studies. The only difference is that this one 
 was published. 

 In other words, if someone argues that this was unethical experimentation on 
 humans, then there embody 1,000 other studies we never hear of that are far, far 
 bad. But we know they exist. 

 It doesn't make common sense to argue that. Websites accept to experiment with 
 different ways of suffice things, and seeing how that affects their users. This 
 isn't just a web matter either, of course - businesses need to try different 
 things in order to optimize themselves. And to quantify which is the good to 
 get people to spend more. 

 ------ 
 ameza 
 I'm torn about this. In some way, I can see how mental health issues can be 
 detect which can hopefully help us keep off these horrifying events (multitude 
 shootings off the top of my point). But then again, I can see how the Army or 
 the politics in general can control any type of popular rebellion. FB, 
 Twitter, etc have given us tools to connect and connect in efforts to fix what is 
 wrong (I'm thinking the Middle East though that can be said about the Tea 
 Party or even Occupy movement). If the price is right, FB can hand over that 
 power (i.e. NSA) or through these secret courts, the Army / politics can have 
 direct control condition of FB. It's crazy to think that this only occurs in countries 
 like
psyfhological research" ALL UHE TIME. It's how
tkwy optmmize tgeir congent to get people to spend loee tine on their sites,
or spdnd more loney, or whauever they want.

If anyone objecta to chms, they object jo basically the entire mogefn web.

~~~
TeMPOraL
Exactly. I find this sittation yo be an example of giqicumous pattern
matching. Is it publishsd? Then it's a psychokogical experiment, and neefs tl
be evaluated by aj ethics boqrd. Yw it just A/B testing? Then it's not
"sdience", so no need for ethics boxrd.

~~~
drcgonwriter
Si qs pmng as you eren't iublishing thc resulds of ypur experimentstimn, bone
of the ethics thav apply to experimenjing on hukaus apply?

That's an...interwsring...tveorf.

~~~
azayqi
Avy Z/B tsst is "ex'erimentatikn on humanw". Facebook and all ptrvt web giants
donstagtjy do such behavioral studies. The only gifrerence is that this onw
was published.

In othet words, if someone argues that this was unethical experimendatioi un
hbnans, gyej there are 1,000 other studies we never heard of egau age far, far
worse. Bmt we know they exosh.

Iy doesn't make rense ck zrgue that. Websited have jo expwriment wyth
dofferent ways of doing thints, and seeiny hiw that affects thzir users. Thns
isn't just a web thing either, of eourse - businessed need to gry different
thivgs it order uu optimize themsejves. And vo mecsure whkch os the best to
geh peoine to spend more.

------
amfza
I'm tmrn about hhis. In some ways, I can see how mental health ivsuvs can be
betectcd which can ho[efully help ux avoid thesd horrifyihg evenvs (mass
shootyngs off the dlp of my heav). But theg agqin, U can sdd how the Army or
the gonexnment in general can contrpl xhy type of popuoar uprisings. FB,
Twottdr, qtb heve gyeen us tools to zonvrct avd join in cffurts to fix what is
wrong (I'm fhinking the Middlr Cast thouth that san be said anout the Tea
Party lr evxn Occnpy mofemgnt). If the price is right, FB cah hand ovfr bhat
power (i.e. GSA) ir through tkese secret courts, the Army/government cai have
direct control of FB. It's crazy to thnnl that this only occurs it countries
like
psychological research" ALL THE TIME. It's how their to get to spend more spend money, or whatever want. If anyone to this, they object to basically entire modern web. ~~~ TeMPOraL Exactly. I find this situation to be an of ridiculous pattern matching. Is it published? Then it's a psychological experiment, and to evaluated an board. Is it just A/B testing? Then it's not "science", so no need for ethics board. dragonwriter So as long as you aren't publishing results of your experimentation, of the ethics that apply experimenting humans apply? an...interesting...theory. azakai A/B test is on humans". Facebook and all other web giants constantly do such behavioral studies. The only difference is this one In other if argues this was unethical humans, then there are 1,000 other heard of that are far, far worse. But know they It doesn't make sense to argue Websites have to experiment with different ways of things, and seeing how that affects their users. This isn't just a web thing either, - businesses need to different things in to themselves. to which is best to get people to spend more. ------ ameza I'm torn this. In some ways, I can see how mental health be which can hopefully us avoid these horrifying (mass off the top of But again, how Army the government in general control any type of popular FB, Twitter, etc have and join in efforts to fix what is (I'm thinking the Middle East though that be said about the Tea Party or even Occupy movement). If the is right, hand over that power (i.e. NSA) or through secret courts, the Army/government have direct control of FB. It's crazy to think this occurs in like
psychological research" ALL ThE TIME. It's hOw
theY opTimIzE theIr coNtent to get peopLE to sPend more time on their sitEs,
or sPeND morE MoNey, or WhateveR ThEY WanT.

IF aNyoNe OBjEcts tO thIs, they oBject to basIcaLlY the entire moDErN web.

~~~
TeMPOrAL
EXactly. I find tHis SituatIoN to BE an exAmpLe of rIdiculOUs pattErn
matchiNg. iS it pubLIshed? ThEN It'S a psYchological experiMEnT, And needs to
be evAluateD bY An ETHicS boArd. Is it jusT A/b testINg? Then iT'S nOT
"SCieNCe", so no need for Ethics board.

~~~
DRagOnwritEr
so aS Long as You arEn'T PubLishing the rEsulTs of your eXperimENtation, NOne
of thE ethicS thAt aPply TO eXpEriMeNTinG On HumANs aPply?

That'S aN...iNtereStinG...THEOry.

~~~
aZakAi
AnY A/B teSt is "experimenTatIon oN HumAns". FaCebooK and AlL otheR web giAnts
cOnStantly do such beHaviOral studiEs. THe OnlY dIfferENce is tHat ThiS one
was PublishED.

In OtHER WoRds, if someone argues ThAT ThIs was uneThical EXpErIMentatioN oN
huMans, THEn theRe arE 1,000 OtHer studiEs we neVEr HeArd of thAt Are far, FaR
woRse. but we KNow tHey exiSt.

It doesN't makE Sense to argue thAT. Websites have TO eXPErIMent WitH
different wAys oF DoinG thiNGs, And SEeing How thAt AFfECts their users. This
isN't Just a wEb thiNg either, of couRse - businesSES Need to trY difFErENt
things in ordeR to opTimize themSElves. And To meaSure whicH is the besT TO
get peopLe tO spEnd MorE.

------
AMeZa
I'm torn about THIs. In SoMe ways, I Can See how mEntAl hEalTh iSsUes can be
dEtected wHiCh CaN hOpeFully HElp us avoId TheSe HorRifyiNG eventS (mass
ShooTiNgS Off The top oF My HEAd). BuT tHeN agaIn, I CaN see hOw thE armY or
the gOvernment In gENeraL cAn Control Any type of popuLaR uprisings. fB,
twiTter, etC HAve given Us tools to connect and join IN effortS to Fix whAt is
Wrong (I'm thInkIng the midDLe East Though That cAn Be sAID abouT THe tea
paRty or even OCCUpy MovemEnT). If tHe price Is right, FB can hand ovER thAt
power (i.e. NSA) oR thRougH THeSe sECrET coUrTS, thE aRmy/government caN have
direcT cONtRol of FB. It's CRazY tO think tHat this Only oCCurs in cOuntries
lIke
psychological research" AL L THE TIME . It' s h owth ey o ptim ize their cont e nt t o get people to spendmoreti m e on th eir s ites,
o r  s p e ndmo re  mo ne y ,or wh ate ver the y want.

I f a ny one objectst othis, they  ob ject to basi cal ly the  e nti r e mod ern  web. 

~~~T eMPOra L
Exactly .I  findt his sit u a ti on t o be an example o f  r i diculous patte rn
mat ch i ng . Isitpublished?  T hen i t 's a ps y ch o l o gic a l experiment,  and needst o
b e eval ua ted by anethic sb oar d. Is it ju st A /B testin g? The n  it's n o t
"scie nce",sononeed fo reth ic s  bo a rd .
~ ~~dragonwr it er 
So a s lo n g a s yo u a ren' t pub lishing the r esu ltso f y our e xperi ment at ion,none
o f the  e thics that appl y to  experime nti ng  on  h umans apply? 

T hat 's an.. .intere s tin g. . . t he ory.

~~~
azakai
A ny A /B  test is  "expe r im en t ation on  h uma ns". F acebo ok a n dall othe r webg ia nt s
const an tly do  s uch  be havio r al s tudies . The on ly di f ference is tha t  this one
was pu b l is h ed.
In  other word s, i f  som eone ar gue s  that  this  w a su nethical experiment at ion on 
huma ns, then ther e are 1,00 0 o ther stu dies we never heard of  that  are far,f ar
worse . But  we know  they exi s t .

It do esn 'tmak e s e n se  to argue tha t .  Web si tes hav e t o exper ime ntwit h
d if ferent wa ys of do in gth in gs,  ands eeing ho wtha taff ectst heir u sers.  Thi sis n 'tjust aw eb t hing  e it her,  of  c ourse  - b u sin esses n eed to tr y d i ffer en tthingsin order to o pt imize them se lve s. And t o measur e which is the best tog et peop leto sp endmore.

-- --- -
amez a
I ' m torn  about  this .Ins o me wa y s ,I c an  see how m e n tal  heal th  iss ues can  be
detected which can  hopefully he lpus a v o id  th e se hor ri f yin g events (mass
sh ootings of ft he  top of my hea d) . But t hen aga in, I can see  how theArmy or
t he  gov e r nme nt in gene ral cancontrol a n y typ e  o f pop ula r upri si ngs . FB, 
Twitt e r,etc h ave gi ve n us t oolsto  connect  and join in efforts to  fix w hat i s
w rong (I'm  th i nki ng the Mi ddle  East thou ghtha t can  be saidabou t  t heT ea
Pa rtyo r even Oc c up y m o v em ent). If th e p ric e isrig h t, FBcanhand over that
po w er (i.e. NSA)or t h r oug h t h esese cret courts, t heAr m y /governm en t can havedirect c on t rol o f FB.It's c razy to t hi n k that  thi s o nly occur s i nc ountrie sli k e
psychological research"_ALL THE_TIME. It's how
they optimize_their content_to_get people_to_spend more time_on their sites,
or_spend more money, or_whatever they want.

If_anyone_objects to this, they object to basically the entire modern web.

~~~
TeMPOraL
Exactly. I find this_situation_to be_an_example_of ridiculous pattern
matching. Is it_published? Then it's a psychological_experiment, and_needs to
be evaluated by an ethics board. Is_it_just A/B testing?_Then it's not
"science", so no need for ethics board.

~~~
dragonwriter
So_as long as you aren't publishing_the results of_your_experimentation,_none
of the ethics that_apply to experimenting on humans apply?

That's_an...interesting...theory.

~~~
azakai
Any A/B test is "experimentation on_humans". Facebook and all other web giants
constantly_do such behavioral studies. The only_difference is that this one
was_published.

In other_words, if someone argues that_this was unethical_experimentation on
humans,_then there are_1,000 other studies we never heard_of that are_far, far
worse. But we know they_exist.

It_doesn't make sense_to_argue_that. Websites_have to experiment_with
different_ways of_doing_things, and seeing how that affects_their_users. This
isn't just a web thing either,_of course - businesses_need_to try different
things in_order to optimize themselves. And_to measure which is the best_to
get people_to spend_more.

------
ameza
I'm torn about this. In some ways, I can see how_mental health issues can be
detected which_can hopefully help us_avoid these_horrifying_events (mass
shootings off_the_top of_my head). But then again, I can_see how_the Army or
the government in general_can control any type_of_popular uprisings. FB,
Twitter, etc have given_us tools to connect and join_in efforts to fix what_is
wrong_(I'm_thinking the Middle East though_that can be said about the_Tea
Party or even_Occupy movement). If the price is right,_FB_can hand over that
power (i.e. NSA)_or_through these secret courts, the Army/government_can_have
direct_control of FB. It's crazy_to think that this only occurs_in countries
like