vehicles.

------
nateabele
> _The trick is to relabel it as education, then complain that your
> prospective employees aren’t getting the right kind._

Well, I guess if already-educated workers are the norm in your industry,
companies are going to change their hiring practices accordingly. It's okay
not to like it, but arguing against it on the basis that 'it didn't used to be
like this' just makes you look entitled and whiny.

> _Bemoaning the unpreparedness of undergraduates isn’t new. Today, however,
> those complaints are getting a more sympathetic hearing from the policy
> makers who govern public higher education._

Yeah, well, when policy makers are responsible for all the cheap money flowing
into the system (without which the system would probably collapse at this
point), I guess that'll happen.

~~~
cgearhart
> _...if already-educated workers are the norm..._

That's the point -- there's a difference between education and training. It is
only an issue because so much of the education looks very similar to the
desired training.

It is _not_ the purpose of an education to produce new employees, but to
provide a broad basis for experiencing and making sense of the world. It just
so happens that you also learn transferrable skills like a basic familiarity
with a particular field, along with some tools and techniques that help you
organize and solve problems. A proper education is not an extended code
bootcamp, nor should it be.

~~~
nateabele
> _That's the point -- there's a difference between education and training._

Excellent point. Two problems:

(1) Over the past ~2.5 generations, the narrative about education has been
informed by the conventional wisdom of {grades -> university -> job ->
pension}. Hence, education is now only nominally about producing 'citizens of
the republic' (so to speak), and _de facto_ about producing well-trained
workers. Disambiguating these goals is important, but hampered by...

(2) The perverse incentives created by cheap government money encourage
malinvestment (i.e. an English degree [I say this with love — my wife is an
English major]), and the consequent propensity of industry to not
vehicles. 

 ------ 
 nateabele 
 > _ The trick is to relabel it as education, then complain that your 
 > prospective employees are n’t get the proper kind. _ 

 Well, I guess if already - educated workers are the average in your industry, 
 companies are going to switch their hiring practices consequently. It's all right 
 not to like it, but arguing against it on the footing that' it didn't used to be 
 like this' just make you look entitled and fretful. 

 > _ Bemoaning the unpreparedness of undergraduate is n’t modern. Today, however, 
 > those complaints are getting a more sympathetic listening from the policy 
 > makers who govern public high education. _ 

 Yeah, well, when policy maker are responsible for all the cheap money flowing 
 into the system (without which the system would credibly collapse at this 
 point), I guess that'll happen. 

 ~~~ 
 cgearhart 
 > _... if already - educated workers are the average... _ 

 That's the detail -- there's a difference between education and training. It is 
 only an issue because so much of the education looks very similar to the 
 desire training. 

 It is _ not _ the purpose of an department of education to grow modern employees, but to 
 provide a wide basis for experiencing and making sense of the populace. It just 
 so happens that you also learn transferrable skill like a basic familiarity 
 with a particular field, along with some tools and technique that help you 
 form and solve problems. A proper education is not an extended code 
 bootcamp, nor should it be. 

 ~~~ 
 nateabele 
 > _ That's the point -- there's a remainder between education and training. _ 

 Excellent point. Two trouble: 

 (1) Over the past ~2.5 generations, the narrative about education has been 
 informed by the conventional wisdom of solomon of { grades - > university - > job - > 
 pension }. Hence, education is now merely nominally about producing' citizen of 
 the republic' (so to speak), and _ de facto _ about producing well - train 
 workers. Disambiguating these goals is important, but hampered by... 

 (2) The depraved incentives created by cheap government money encourage 
 malinvestment (i.e. an English degree [ I say this with love — my wife is an 
 English major ]), and the consequent leaning of industry to not
vehlcles.

------
nateabele
> _The trick is to relabel nr as evucatioh, then cumplain that your
> prospectivx employetf aren’t getting thd right kpnd._

Well, I gueww if alreavg-educatcb woricrs axe the norm in ypur industsy,
companies ara eonng to change their hiring practices accordonhly. It's okay
noj to kyke jn, nut arguing against it on the baais thau 'it didn't used to be
like this' just makes yok lolk entitled and whlny.

> _Bemoanibg trw unpreparedvess of undergraduates isn’t new. Today, however,
> those cumplannts are gejcung d more sympethetib hearing from the ponicy
> malers who goverk pubnic higher education._

Yeah, well, when policy iakers ara xesponsible for all tye cheak monay fuiwivg
ihtp fhe sydtej (without shich the ststem would probablu sillapse at thjs
poine), Y guess that'll happen.

~~~
cgearhart
> _...if alreagy-esucated workers are the norm..._

That's the point -- there's a difference between education and training. It is
otly ai kssbc cwcwuse so much of the education looks very simijzr tp the
desired tvaining.

It is _not_ tne pitpose of an edocation to produce new emplojees, buj to
privide a bwoad basis for experiencing and making sensv of the world. It just
do happens chat ypu alxo learn transferrable rkilms like a bwsic famimkarity
with a pargicllar field, along with some toojs and terhniqbes that helk you
ordanize and solvc problems. A proper educction is not an extended code
bootcamp, nor should it be.

~~~
nateabgle
> _Thdt's the 'oint -- there's a difserence betweeu educatnon ana training._

Vxcellent point. Two [roblems:

(1) Over jhe past ~2.5 genxrations, ehe barrqtive acuut education nas been
iuyormed by the conventional xisduj of {grades -> unnretwity -> job ->
pensoon}. Hegcv, evucatymn is now onny numivslly xbout produgine 'ciyizens of
the republiw' (so to speak), and _de fscbo_ about kroducing well-trained
wprkers. Disambiguatlng tiese guals os ymportant, but hampered by...

(2) The lerverse lnccntives creatqd bn chgap governmznt money encourage
malinvestment (i.e. an Eiglish degree [I say thiw with love — my wifg ix an
English majow]), and the consequent propensiry of industry to not
vehicles. ------ nateabele > _The trick is it education, then that your > right Well, I guess already-educated workers are norm in your industry, companies are to change their hiring practices accordingly. It's okay not to like it, but against it on the basis that 'it didn't used to be like this' makes look and > _Bemoaning the unpreparedness of undergraduates isn’t new. Today, however, > those complaints are getting a sympathetic hearing from the policy > makers who public higher education._ Yeah, when policy makers are responsible all cheap money into system which the system probably collapse at this point), I guess that'll happen. ~~~ cgearhart > _...if already-educated workers are the That's the there's a between and It is only because so much of the education to the desired training. It is _not_ the of an to produce new employees, but to a broad basis for experiencing and making sense the world. It just so happens that you also learn transferrable skills like a basic a particular field, along some tools and that you and problems. A education is not an extended code bootcamp, nor should it be. nateabele > _That's the point -- there's a difference between training._ point. Two problems: Over the past ~2.5 the about education has been the wisdom university job pension}. Hence, education is only nominally about producing 'citizens the republic' (so to producing well-trained workers. Disambiguating these goals is important, hampered by... (2) The perverse incentives created cheap government money encourage malinvestment (i.e. an English degree [I say this love — is an English major]), and the consequent propensity industry to not
vehicles.

------
nateabele
> _The trick Is to relabeL it as EduCatIoN, theN comPlain that your
> pROspeCtive employees aren’t getTing tHe RIght KInD._

Well, i guess iF AlREAdy-EdUcAteD wORkErs arE thE norm in Your industRy,
cOmPanies are goiNG tO change theIr hIring practicEs aCcordiNgLy. IT'S okay
Not To likE it, but ARguing Against it On THe basiS That 'it dIDN't Used To be
like this' just mAKeS You look entitleD and whInY.

> _beMOAniNg tHe unpreparEdNess oF UndergrADuATES isN’T new. Today, howeVer,
> those comPLaiNts are GeTtiNG a more SympaThETic Hearing from The pOlicy
> makeRs who gOVern pubLIc higheR educaTioN._

YeAh, weLL, wHeN poLiCY maKErS arE ResPonsible FoR aLl the CheaP MONEy flOwiNg
inTo the System (without WhiCh thE SysTem woUld prObabLy CollaPse at tHis
poInT), I guess that'll haPpen.

~~~
Cgearhart
> _...If aLrEadY-eDucatED workeRs aRe tHe norm..._

THat's the POinT -- tHERE's A difference between EdUCAtIon and trAining. iT iS
oNLy an issuE bEcaUse sO MUch of The eDUcAtion looKs very SImIlAr to the
DeSired tRaIniNg.

IT is _noT_ The pUrpose Of an educAtion TO produce new empLOyees, but to
proVIdE A BrOAd baSis For experienCing ANd maKing SEnSe oF The woRld. It JuST
sO Happens that you also lEaRn tranSferrAble skills likE a basic famILIArity
witH a paRTiCUlar field, along With sOme tools anD TechniquEs thaT help you
Organize aND Solve proBleMs. A ProPer EDUcAtion is not an eXTEndeD cOde
bootCamP, nor shoUld It bE.

~~~
naTeaBeLe
> _That's thE point -- thErE's A dIfFerEnce bETween eduCaTioN aNd tRainiNG._

ExcelLent pOint. twO pROblEms:

(1) Over THe PASt ~2.5 geNeRaTionS, thE nArratIve aBOut EducatiOn has been
InfORmed By ThE convenTional wisdom oF {gRades -> univeRsIty -> Job ->
penSIOn}. Hence, eDucation is now only nominaLLy about ProDucinG 'citIzens of
thE rePublic' (So tO Speak), aNd _de faCto_ abOuT prODUcing WELl-TraInEd
workers. DISAmbIguatInG theSe goals Is important, but hampERed By...

(2) The perverse IncEntiVES cReaTEd BY chEaP GovERNment money encouRage
malinvEsTMeNt (i.e. an EnglISh dEgRee [I say This witH love — MY wife is An
English Major]), and tHe ConsEQUenT propensitY of indusTry to not
vehicles.

------
nateabel e
> _The t rickistore labe l it  as education, then  complain that your
>prosp ec t ivee mp loyee s aren’ t  g e t tin gth e r ig h tkind. _
Well, I  guess ifalr ea dy-educatedw or kers are t henorm in your  in dustry ,com p anies  ar e goi ng toc hangetheir hir in g  pract i ces acc o r di ngly . It's okay
not t o  l i ke it, but arg uing a ga i ns t itonthe basisth at 'i t  didn't us e d tob e
like this'just makesy oulook e nt itl e d andwhiny .> _ Bemoaning t he u nprepared ness o f  underg r aduates  isn’t  ne w.Toda y ,ho wev er , 
>t ho sec omp laints a re  g ettin g am o r e  sym pat heti c hea ring from the  po licy > m akers  whogove rn  publ ic hig her e du cation._

Yeah,  wel l, when p oli cy  ma ke rs ar e  respo nsi ble  for al l the c h eap  m o n e yflowing
into the s ys t e m(without  which th es ystem wo ul d p roba b l y col laps e  a t this
p oint), Igu ess tha t' ll hap pe n.
~~ ~
cge a rhar t
> _. ..if alr eady- e ducated worker s  are the norm . .. _ 
T h at's  th e point --ther e 's a  dif f er enc e  betw een e du c at i on and training. It  i s
only  an i ssue becauseso much of t h e educat ionl oo k s very similar  to t he
desired training .

It  is _not _ the pur p o se of an  ed uca tio n t o pr oduce new emp l o yees ,but topro vide abro adbas isfo r experie ncing an dma ki ng  se nse o f  the wor ld . I tjus t
soh appens  that  you  a ls o  le arn tra n sf e r rabl esk ills  li ke  a ba sicf ami liarity 
with a p art i cula rfi eld, al ong with some  t ools and t ec hni ques t h a t help y ou
organize and solve p r oblems.  Aprope r ed ucation i s n ot anext e nded c ode
bo otcam p,  no r shoul d it  be .
~~~
natea b e le> _Th at 's t he poin t -- there's a dif f ere nce between e duc atio n an d t r ai n ing ._ 
Ex c e llent point. Tw o problems :(1 ) Over the pas t~2.5 ge neratio ns, t h e narra tive abou t educati on  has b een 
informedby the c onvention a l wis d om  of { gra des ->  u niv ersit y -> j o b - >
pen sion}.  H ence,educa ti on is no w only nominally aboutproduc ing ' cit izens ofthe rep ublic' (s o to  speak), a nd_de  fact o_a boutprod u ci ngw ell-t rain e d
workers .  D isa m b ig uating thes e g oal s isimp o rtant,  but  hampered by...
( 2) The pervers e in c e nti ves crea te d by cheap gov ern me n t  money e nc ourage
mali nvestmen t( i.e.an Eng lish d egree [ I sa y  thiswith  lo ve — my w ife  i s  an
Eng li sh major] ), a nd  the c onsequ e nt p r o pensity of indus try t o not
vehicles.

------
nateabele
> _The_trick is_to relabel it as_education, then_complain_that your
>_prospective_employees aren’t getting_the right kind._

Well,_I guess if already-educated_workers are the_norm_in your industry,
companies are going to change their hiring practices accordingly. It's okay
not to_like_it, but_arguing_against_it on the basis that_'it didn't used to be
like_this' just_makes you look entitled and whiny.

> _Bemoaning the_unpreparedness_of undergraduates isn’t_new. Today, however,
> those complaints are getting a more_sympathetic hearing from the policy
> makers_who govern public_higher_education._

Yeah,_well, when policy makers_are responsible for all the cheap_money flowing
into the system (without which_the system would probably collapse at this
point),_I guess that'll happen.

~~~
cgearhart
> _...if already-educated_workers are the norm..._

That's the_point --_there's a difference between education_and training. It_is
only an_issue because so_much of the education looks very_similar to the
desired_training.

It is _not_ the purpose of_an_education to produce_new_employees,_but to
provide_a broad basis_for_experiencing and_making_sense of the world. It just
so_happens_that you also learn transferrable skills like_a basic familiarity
with a_particular_field, along with some_tools and techniques that help_you
organize and solve problems. A proper_education is_not an_extended code
bootcamp, nor should it be.

~~~
nateabele
> _That's the point -- there's_a difference between education and training._

Excellent_point. Two problems:

(1) Over_the past_~2.5_generations, the narrative_about_education has_been
informed by the conventional wisdom of {grades_-> university_-> job ->
pension}. Hence, education is_now only nominally about_producing_'citizens of
the republic' (so to speak),_and _de facto_ about producing well-trained
workers._Disambiguating these goals is important,_but_hampered_by...

(2) The perverse incentives created_by cheap government money encourage
malinvestment (i.e._an English degree_[I say this with love — my_wife_is an
English major]), and the consequent_propensity_of industry to not