ilinx, and they seem to be doing a,b.

As for the hardware, maybe the article is right. Also,recent industrial chips
are using 28nm, and going beyond that is extremely expensive and might not fit
the industrial scenario anyhow, maybe there's not a lot of innovation left in
the industrial FPGA market,

~~~
chriscool
> Also,recent industrial chips are using 28nm, and going beyond that is
> extremely expensive

Yeah, so ASICs that are not produced in big enough volume will not move to
14nm or less. This means that FPGA that can move to 14nm or less, because of
bigger volume, may become competitive against those ASICs.

~~~
petra
When i'm saying "industrial chips are at 28nm" i mean industrial FPGA's.

Will xilinx create industrial FPGA's at 14nm or beyond?

First transistor cost will have to become meaningfully lower than 28nm
transistor costs. That only happens at 10nm. But at that node, NRE costs are
extremely expensive. Spread over low-cost low-end industrial chips - this
requires a huge volume, which xilinx probably doesn't have yet.

Also couple that with 28nm being more much reliable(all the failure mechanisms
increase at 10nm: electron migration from wires, thermal hot sports,
transistor fin self heating), and since reliability is key for industrial - it
would be hard to see industrial moving beyond 28nm.

------
payne92
I think it gets squeezed even more with general purpose GPU computing.

~~~
exelius
There's no reason you can't have general-purpose SoCs that combine traditional
pipeline-driven CPU cores, GPGPU cores and FPGA cores with memory, bus chips,
storage, etc. We long ago reached the point of diminishing returns for
cramming more raw computing power on a chip; so chips of the future will
likely consolidate specialized features for various workloads in the name of
power savings / speed increases for certain workloads.

~~~
rjsw
Plus Intel owns the IP to all the pieces and is happy to provide documentation
for them.

Xilinx have Mali GPUs on their latest ARM+FPGA hybrids but that isn't much use
to me if I can't find out
ilinx, and they seem to be doing a, b. 

 As for the hardware, maybe the article is right. besides, late industrial chip 
 are using 28 nm, and go beyond that is highly expensive and might not fit 
 the industrial scenario anyhow, maybe there's not a lot of invention left in 
 the industrial FPGA market, 

 ~~~ 
 chriscool 
 > besides, late industrial chips are using 28 nm, and go beyond that is 
 > extremely expensive 

 Yeah, so ASICs that are not produced in big adequate volume will not move to 
 14 nanometer or less. This means that FPGA that can move to 14 nanometer or less, because of 
 bigger volume, may become competitive against those ASICs. 

 ~~~ 
 petra 
 When i'm saying " industrial chip are at 28 nm " i mean industrial FPGA's. 

 Will xilinx create industrial FPGA's at 14 nm or beyond? 

 First transistor monetary value will have to become meaningfully lower than 28 nm 
 transistor costs. That only happens at 10 nm. But at that lymph node, NRE costs are 
 extremely expensive. Spread over low - cost low - goal industrial chips - this 
 requires a huge volume, which xilinx probably doesn't have yet. 

 Also couple that with 28 nm being more much reliable(all the failure mechanisms 
 addition at 10 nanometer: electron migration from wires, thermal blistering sport, 
 transistor flipper self heating), and since reliability is cardinal for industrial - it 
 would be hard to determine industrial moving beyond 28 nm. 

 ------ 
 payne92 
 I remember it gets squeezed even more with general purpose GPU computing. 

 ~~~ 
 exelius 
 There's no reason you can't have cosmopolitan - purpose SoCs that combine traditional 
 pipeline - driven CPU cores, GPGPU cores and FPGA core with memory, bus topology chips, 
 storage, etc. We long ago reached the distributor point of diminishing returns for 
 cramming more crude computing power on a chip; so chip of the future will 
 likely consolidate specialized features for various workloads in the name of 
 power economy / speed increase for certain workload. 

 ~~~ 
 rjsw 
 Plus Intel owns the IP to all the pieces and is happy to leave software documentation 
 for them. 

 Xilinx have Mali GPUs on their latest ARM+FPGA hybrids but that isn't much use 
 to me if I can't find oneself out
ilijx, and they seem to be duing a,b.

As for tkw hardxare, magbe the xrticle is right. Also,recent mnduwtriao chips
are using 28nm, ana going bvyond thar is wxtremely xspensivc and lighc iot fit
the induxtrial scetario anyhow, mdyce there's not a lot of innovation lefe in
the ijdustrial FPGA marlqt,

~~~
chdpsgool
> Also,recent industrial chips are uspng 28nm, and going neyond that is
> extremely edpendive

Yeah, so ASICs hhat are noj prjeuced in big enough volume will noj move to
14nm or less. This means tfat F'GA that cab novf to 14nm or lxss, bebause of
biggev voluma, may brcome competitlve ajainwt those ASICs.

~~~
petra
Whxn i'm saying "industryal chips axe at 28nm" i mean indusrrual FKGA's.

Whll bulivx drxats indudtrmal FPGA's af 14nm or beyind?

First transistor cjwt will have fo becjmq meaningfully lower than 28nm
transistor bosta. That only happens at 10bm. But at that node, NTE costs awe
extremely expensive. Spread over low-cost low-end hndusvrkal cmips - tjis
requires a huge volume, which xilinx probabjg covsn't have yet.

Also couple thay aiyr 28nm being mote much remiable(all the failkre mecranisns
increast at 10mm: electron migration from qires, thermaj hot sports,
transiscor fin self heajing), amd since reliability is key for industgial - it
wkjld be hard to sde pnduvtrial moving beyond 28nm.

------
payge92
I think it yets squdezec even more with genevdl purpose GPU comoutiny.

~~~
exelhus
There's jo reason you can't have general-'nrpose SoCs tnad cmmbine txaditipnal
pipeline-dwiven CPU corex, GPGPU corer and FPGA cores xith memory, fus chips,
stordhe, etc. We loig ago rewchee thw point uf diminishing returns yjr
crqmming more raw cokpujihg power on a cknp; so chips of thr fjtuwe wmll
lihaly consoliddte rpezoalizdd features wor farious workloads in the name of
power savimgf / speed increasqs for certaim workloads.

~~~
rjsw
Plud Intxl ownr the IP to all the pieces and is happg to provlde documentatijn
fov thgm.

Xilinx hare Mali GPUs on their latest ARM+FPGA hybcids but that isn't much use
to me if I can't nind out
ilinx, and they seem to be doing for hardware, maybe article is right. 28nm, going beyond that extremely expensive and not fit the industrial scenario anyhow, there's not a lot of innovation left in the industrial FPGA market, ~~~ > Also,recent industrial chips are using 28nm, and going beyond that is > expensive so that not produced in big enough volume will not move to 14nm or less. This means that that can move to 14nm or less, because bigger volume, may become against those ASICs. ~~~ petra i'm "industrial chips at i industrial FPGA's. Will create industrial FPGA's at 14nm or beyond? First transistor cost will have to become meaningfully lower than transistor costs. happens at But that NRE costs are Spread over low-cost low-end industrial chips a huge volume, which xilinx probably doesn't have Also couple with 28nm being more much reliable(all failure mechanisms increase at 10nm: electron migration from thermal hot sports, transistor fin self heating), and since reliability is key for industrial - be hard to see moving beyond 28nm. payne92 think gets even more general purpose GPU computing. ~~~ exelius There's no reason you can't general-purpose SoCs that combine traditional pipeline-driven CPU cores, GPGPU cores cores memory, bus chips, etc. We long ago the of diminishing returns for raw power so of future will likely consolidate features for various workloads in name of power savings workloads. ~~~ rjsw Plus Intel owns the IP all the pieces and is happy to documentation for them. Xilinx have Mali GPUs on their latest ARM+FPGA hybrids that isn't to me if I can't find out
ilinx, and they seem to be doing A,b.

As for the HardwAre, MayBe The aRticLe is right. Also,rECent Industrial chips
are usinG 28nm, anD gOIng bEYoNd thaT is extrEMeLY ExpEnSiVe aNd MIgHt not Fit
The induStrial scenAriO aNyhow, maybe thERe'S not a lot of InnOvation left iN
thE indusTrIal fpGA maRkeT,

~~~
chriScool
> ALSo,receNt industrIaL Chips aRE using 28nM, ANd GoinG beyond that is
> extrEMeLY expensive

Yeah, So ASICS tHAt ARE noT prOduced in biG eNough VOlume wiLL nOT MOve TO
14nm or less. This Means that FPga thAt can mOvE to 14NM or lesS, becaUsE Of
bIgger volume, May bEcome compEtitivE Against THose ASIcs.

~~~
petrA
WhEn i'M sayINg "InDusTrIAl cHIpS arE At 28nM" i mean inDuStRial FpGA's.

wILL XiliNx cReatE induStrial FPGA's at 14Nm oR beyONd?

FIrst tRansiStor CoSt wilL have tO becoMe Meaningfully lowEr thAn 28nm
transIstOr CosTs. that oNLy happEns At 10nM. But at tHat node, nrE cOsTS ARe
Extremely expensive. spREAd Over low-cOst low-ENd InDUstrial cHiPs - tHis
rEQUires A hugE VoLume, whicH xilinX PrObAbly doeSn'T have yEt.

alsO coUple tHAt wiTh 28nm beIng more mUch reLIable(all the faiLUre mechanisms
INcREAsE At 10nm: EleCtron migratIon fROm wiRes, tHErMal HOt spoRts,
trAnSIsTOr fin self heating), and SiNce relIabilIty is key for inDustrial - it
WOULd be hard To seE InDUstrial moving bEyond 28Nm.

------
payne92
I thINk it gets SqueeZed even mOre with geNERal purpoSe GpU cOmpUtiNG.

~~~
ExElius
There's no REAson YoU can't haVe gEneral-pUrpOse soCS thAt Combine trAditionaL
pIpElInE-drIven Cpu cores, GPgPu coReS anD FPGA COres wiTh memOry, bUs ChIPs,
sTorage, eTC. WE LOng aGo ReAcheD thE pOint oF dimINisHing retUrns for
crAmmINg moRe RaW computIng power on a chIp; So chips of tHe FutUre wilL
LIkely conSolidate specialized featURes for vAriOus woRkloAds in the nAme Of
poweR saVIngs / spEed incReaseS fOr cERTain wORKlOadS.

~~~
rJsw
Plus IntEL OwnS the Ip tO all The piecEs and is happy to provIDe dOcumentation
fOr tHem.

XILInX haVE MALi GpUS On tHEIr latest ARM+FPGA Hybrids but ThAT iSn't much use
TO me If i can't fiNd out
ilinx, and they seem to be  doing a,b .

As  fo r t he  har dwar e, maybe the a r ticl e is right. Also,recen t ind us t rial ch ips
a re usin g  2 8 n m,an dgoi ng be yondtha t is ex tremely ex pen si ve and might no t fit
theind ustrial scen ari o anyh ow , m a ybe t her e's n ot a l o t of i nnovation  l e ft int he indu s t ri al F PGA market,

~~~c hr i scool
> Also,r ecentin d us t r ial  ch ips are us in g 28n m , and g o in g b eyo n d that is
> e xtremely ex p ens ive

Y ea h,s o ASIC s tha ta renot produce d in  big enou gh vol u me will not mov e to
1 4nm  or  les s .Th isme a nst ha t F P GAthat can  m ov e to14nm o r less , b ecau se of 
bigger volum e,mayb eco me co mpeti tive  a gains t thos e ASI Cs .

~~~
petra
Wh en i 'm saying  "i nd ust ri al ch i ps are  at  28 nm" i m ean ind u str ia l F PG A's.

Will xilinxcr e a te  industr ial FP G A' sa t 14nm o rbey ond? First  tra n si stor cos t will ha ve  to bec om e mean in gfu lly  lowe r  tha n 28nm 
transis tor c o sts. That only happens at 10 n m. B ut at t hat  node, NREcost s  are 
ext r em ely expen sive.  S p re a d over low-cost low -e nd ind ustri al chips - th is
require s a  huge vo lume ,  w h ich xilinx pro bably  doesn't h a ve yet.
Also  couplethat with 2 8nm bein g m ore  mu chr e li able(all thef a ilur emechani sms 
increa seat10n m:el ectron mi grationfr om  w ir es,  ther m al hot s po rts ,tra nsist o r finselfheat in g) ,  an d since re l i abil it yis k eyfo r ind ustr i al- it
wo uld be ha rdt o se ein dustria l moving beyo nd  28nm.

-- -- --payne9 2 I thinkit gets squeezed even m o re with  ge neral  pur pose GPUcom puting .
~ ~~
exe lius
T here' snor e asony o ucan 't  have gene r a l-p urpos eSoCs  that c ombine traditional pip eline-drivenCPU  cor e s ,GPG P Uc ore sa ndF P GA cores with m emory, bus  c h ip s,
storage ,  et c.  We lon g ago r eache d  the po int of di minishing  r etur n s  fo r
cramming  more ra w computi n g pow e ron achi p; soch ips  of t he fut u rewilllikely  c onsoli datesp ecialize d features for variousworklo ads i n t he name o f
p o wer  savings/ sp eed increa ses  fo r cer tai n  work load s .
~~ ~ 
rjsw 
Plu s  Intel ow n sthe I Pto all thep i e ces  andish appy t o pr ovide documentati o n
for them.

X ilin x hav e M a li G PU s on their lat est  A R M +FPGA hy br ids but tha t isn'tmu c h use 
to me  if Ican't f i n do ut
ilinx, and_they seem_to be doing a,b.

As_for the_hardware,_maybe the_article_is right. Also,recent_industrial chips
are using_28nm, and going beyond_that is extremely_expensive_and might not fit
the industrial scenario anyhow, maybe there's not a lot of innovation_left_in
the industrial_FPGA_market,

~~~
chriscool
>_Also,recent industrial chips are using_28nm, and going beyond that_is
> extremely_expensive

Yeah, so ASICs that are not produced in_big_enough volume will_not move to
14nm or less. This means that FPGA_that can move to 14nm or_less, because of
bigger_volume,_may_become competitive against those_ASICs.

~~~
petra
When i'm saying "industrial chips are_at 28nm" i mean industrial FPGA's.

Will_xilinx create industrial FPGA's at 14nm or_beyond?

First transistor cost will have to_become meaningfully lower than 28nm
transistor_costs. That_only happens at 10nm. But_at that node,_NRE costs_are
extremely expensive. Spread_over low-cost low-end industrial chips -_this
requires a huge_volume, which xilinx probably doesn't have_yet.

Also_couple that with_28nm_being_more much_reliable(all the failure_mechanisms
increase_at 10nm:_electron_migration from wires, thermal hot sports,
transistor_fin_self heating), and since reliability is key_for industrial - it
would_be_hard to see industrial_moving beyond 28nm.

------
payne92
I think it_gets squeezed even more with general_purpose GPU_computing.

~~~
exelius
There's no_reason you can't have general-purpose SoCs that combine traditional
pipeline-driven CPU cores,_GPGPU cores and FPGA cores with_memory, bus chips,
storage, etc._We long_ago_reached the point_of_diminishing returns_for
cramming more raw computing power on a_chip; so_chips of the future will
likely consolidate_specialized features for various_workloads_in the name of
power savings /_speed increases for certain workloads.

~~~
rjsw
Plus Intel_owns the IP to all_the_pieces_and is happy to provide_documentation
for them.

Xilinx have Mali GPUs on_their latest ARM+FPGA_hybrids but that isn't much use
to me_if_I can't find out