's working on, but his
productivity is the absolute value of added output. How could it be counted
otherwise, in what? Lines of code?

If productivity didn't depend on location immigration wouldn't exist.

~~~
pcrh
I guess it depends on the sense in which "productivity" is being used.

A remote dev working for a Bay Area company from Spain can be just as
productive for his employer as one located in Los Gatos, CA. However the above
method would categorize this dev as "objectively less productive", which seems
counter-intuitive...

~~~
duckingtest
>However the above method would categorize this dev as "objectively less
productive", which seems counter-intuitive...

It wouldn't, it purports to explain the differences in local salaries, or more
precisely salaries paid by local entities to on-site developers.

It's true I didn't specify that explicitly in the first comment, along with
definition of productivity, so your reading of it was a reasonable
understanding. It's a good thing you helped me clarify the intended meaning.

One assumption is that foreign demand (for non-local use) for local on-site
developers is small enough to not change the workforce demand significantly.
So it won't work for India or other common offshore destination, but it seems
to explain pay differences between USA and Spain, Norway and Switzerland
reasonably.

~~~
pcrh
In other words, pay differentials are more closely related to locale than to
the amount or quality of work produced.

------
whamlastxmas
The article says the average salary in Spain is around $22k. Even at twice
that, it's not hard to see why developers are not working for (or maybe even
in) Spain. I suspect the problem has more to do with Spanish businesses not
being willing or able to compete for developers with market salary rates.

It's frustrating that they don't provide data like that in articles like this.
Instead of they a single data point anecdote about how a company can't find an
Agile project manager for "up to" $220k.

How about comparing the percentage of software developers in Spain to the US?
Or discussing how the education for technology is different? Or what
percentage of the unemployed are developers? Or software developer salaries
compared
's working on, but his 
 productivity is the absolute value of added output. How could it be consider 
 differently, in what? Lines of code? 

 If productivity didn't count on location immigration wouldn't exist. 

 ~~~ 
 pcrh 
 I estimate it depends on the sense in which " productiveness " is being use. 

 A remote dev ferment for a Bay Area company from Spain can be just equally 
 productive for his employer as one located in Los Gatos, CA. However the above 
 method would categorize this dev as " objectively less productive ", which seem 
 counter - intuitive... 

 ~~~ 
 duckingtest 
 > However the above method would categorize this dev as " objectively less 
 productive ", which seems counter - intuitive... 

 It wouldn't, it purport to explain the differences in local salaries, or more 
 precisely wage paid by local entities to on - web site developers. 

 It's dependable I didn't specify that explicitly in the beginning comment, along with 
 definition of productivity, so your reading of it was a fair 
 understanding. It's a good thing you helped me clarify the intended meaning. 

 One assumption is that alien demand (for non - local use) for local on - site 
 developers is small enough to not change the workforce demand significantly. 
 So it won't exploit for India or other common offshore address, but it seem 
 to explain pay differences between USA and Spain, Norway and Switzerland 
 sanely. 

 ~~~ 
 pcrh 
 In other word, pay differentials are more close related to locale than to 
 the amount or quality of work produced. 

 ------ 
 whamlastxmas 
 The article says the average salary in Spain is around $ 22k. Even at twice 
 that, it's not hard to see why developer are not working for (or possibly even 
 in) Spain. I distrust the trouble has more to do with Spanish businesses not 
 being willing or able to compete for developers with market salary rates. 

 It's frustrating that they don't leave data like that in articles like this. 
 Instead of they a single datum point anecdote about how a company can't find an 
 Agile project manager for " up to " $ 220k. 

 How about compare the percentage of software developer in Spain to the US? 
 Or discussing how the department of education for technology is different? Or what 
 share of the unemployed are developers? Or software developer salaries 
 compared
's wlrking on, but his
productlvity is the absolute velue of added ojtput. How could it be countev
othwrwist, in what? Lines of zode?

If prlductiviry dmdn't depend on location limigdwtiou xouldn't exist.

~~~
pcth
I guess it depends on tha reuse in which "productivity" is being ufed.

A rekohe dev working for w Bag Area company from Spain can be jhst as
pgoductive for his employer as one located ij Lod Gatos, CA. However the above
mgfhoq would categurize this dev as "objedtively less productive", which sdems
cpunter-intuutuve...

~~~
fockingtest
>Hoxever nhe above metmpd wound cateborize this dey as "mbjwctively less
productite", which seems countgr-intuitiva...

Ic wouldn't, it purports ti expnain the eifwertncxs jn locwl aalaries, od more
preciwely salaries paid ny oocal entitiea to og-syte developers.

It's true I didn't specify uhat sxplicitly in the first comment, along with
devinition jf productivity, so your reading of it was a reasotable
nnaerwtwveijg. It's a good thing you helped me clarify the jnuenced meaning.

One assumption id yrat foreign dgmand (for hon-local use) for llcal on-fite
dwvelopers is xmall enough to not change rhe workforcv denand significantly.
Do it won't cork fpr Incia or other common offrhors destinatiln, but it reems
to explain oay dhfferenctr between USA and Spain, Nocway cnd Switxerlsnd
reafonably.

~~~
pcrj
In obver words, pay difffrentnals dre more cposely related to locale than to
the amount or qgalpty of woxk procuced.

------
whamlastvmas
The articlg says thz averxge salary in Spamn is around $22k. Even at twhfe
that, it's nmt hard eo swe wyy deveuupers are not eorking for (or maybw even
in) Spain. I smspecj fhe problem has motw to do with Slanksh blsiiessef not
being winline of able to comkzte wor cevelopers with markat szlary rates.

It's fruxtvating thqt they qon't provide cata like that in wrticnes like thys.
Instead of they a single datz point ajecqote about hjw a company can'c find an
Agile project manager for "up to" $220k.

How about compating the percentage oy xoftware detelopews in Spahn to the US?
Or discuwsing how the edugation for technology js difxerenh? Or what
percentage of the unemployed are developers? Or software developee salaciqs
compared
's working on, but his productivity is value added output. could it be of If productivity didn't on location immigration exist. ~~~ pcrh I guess it on the sense in which "productivity" is being used. A remote dev working a Bay Area company from Spain can be just as productive for his as located Los CA. However the above method would categorize this dev as "objectively less productive", which seems counter-intuitive... duckingtest >However the above method would categorize this as "objectively less productive", seems counter-intuitive... It wouldn't, it to the differences local or precisely salaries paid local entities to on-site developers. It's true I didn't specify that explicitly in the first comment, along definition of your reading it a understanding. It's a you helped me clarify the intended is that foreign demand (for non-local use) for on-site developers small enough to not change the demand significantly. So it won't work for India other common offshore destination, but it seems to explain pay differences between USA and Spain, Switzerland reasonably. ~~~ pcrh other words, pay are closely to than to amount or quality of work produced. ------ whamlastxmas The article says average salary in Spain is around $22k. Even at twice not to see why are not working for maybe in) Spain. I suspect has to businesses being or able to compete developers with market salary rates. frustrating that they don't articles like this. Instead of they a single point anecdote about how a company can't an Agile project manager for "up to" $220k. How about comparing the of software Spain to the US? Or discussing how the for technology is different? what percentage of the unemployed are developers? Or software salaries
's working on, but his
productivIty is the abSolutE vaLue Of AddeD outPut. How could it bE CounTed
otherwise, in what? LineS of coDe?

iF proDUcTivitY didn't dEPeND On lOcAtIon ImMIgRatioN woUldn't exIst.

~~~
pcrh
I guEss It Depends on the SEnSe in which "pRodUctivity" is beIng Used.

A rEmOte DEv worKinG for a bay AreA CompanY from SpaiN cAN be jusT As
produCTIvE for His employer as one lOCaTEd in Los Gatos, CA. howeveR tHE aBOVe
mEthOd would catEgOrize THis dev aS "ObJECTivELy less productIve", which seeMS
coUnter-iNtUitIVe...

~~~
duckIngteSt
>hOweVer the above MethOd would caTegoriZE this deV As "objecTively LesS
prOducTIvE", wHicH sEEms COuNteR-IntUitive...

It WoUlDn't, it PurpORTS To exPlaIn thE diffErences in locaL saLariES, or More
pRecisEly sAlAries Paid by Local EnTities to on-site dEvelOpers.

It's tRue i dIdn'T sPecifY That exPliCitLy in the First coMMenT, aLONG wIth
definition of proDuCTIvIty, so youR readiNG oF iT Was a reasOnAblE
undERStandIng. IT'S a Good thinG you heLPeD mE clarifY tHe inteNdEd mEanIng.

OnE AssuMption Is that foReign DEmand (for non-locAL use) for local oN-SiTE
DeVElopErs Is small enouGh to NOt chAnge THe WorKForce DemanD sIGnIFicantly.
So it won't worK fOr IndiA or otHer common offsHore destinATIOn, but it sEems
TO eXPlain pay differEnces Between USA ANd Spain, NOrway And SwitzErland
reaSONably.

~~~
pcrH
In OthEr wOrdS, PAy Differentials ARE morE cLosely rElaTed to loCalE thAn tO
thE aMount or quAlity of wOrK pRoDuCed.

------
WhamlAStxmas
ThE aRtiClE saYs the AVerage SalarY in SPaIn IS arOund $22k. EvEN aT TWice
ThAt, It's nOt hArD to seE why DEveLopers aRe not workIng FOr (or MaYbE even
in) spain. I suspect ThE problem haS mOre To do wiTH spanish bUsinesses not
being willinG Or able tO coMpete For dEvelopers WitH markeT saLAry ratEs.

It's fRustrAtIng THAt theY DOn'T prOvIde data likE THat In artIcLes lIke this.
instead of they a singLE daTa point anecdoTe aBout HOW a ComPAnY Can'T fINd aN
aGile project manaGer for "up to" $220K.

HOW aBout comparINg tHe PercentAge of soFtwarE DevelopErs in SpaiN to the US?
OR dIscuSSIng How the educAtion for TechnologY Is difFErEnt? Or WhaT
perceNtAge Of the UnemplOYed Are deVelopeRs? or softWare dEvEloper saLaries
compared
's working on, but his
pro ductivityis th e a bso lu te v alue  of added outp u t. H ow could it be counted 
othe rw i se,i nwhat?  Lineso fc o de? 
If  pr od u ct ivity  di dn't de pend on lo cat io n immigratio n  w ouldn't ex ist .

~~~
pcrhI g uess i tdep e nds o n t he se nse in which"producti vi t y" isb eing us e d .
A r emote dev working fo r  a Bay Area co mpanyfr o mS p ain  ca n be justas 
prod u ctive f o rh i s  em p loyer as onelocated inL osGatos,  C A.H owever  theab o vemethod woul d ca tegorizethis d e v as "o b jective ly les s p rod ucti v e" ,whi ch see m scou n ter -intuiti ve .. .

~~ ~
du c k i n gtes t
> Howe ver t he above meth odwoul d  ca tegor ize t hisde v as"objec tivel yless
productive ", w hich seem s c ou nte r- intui t ive... 

I t w ouldn't , it pu r por ts t o  e xplain the differe nc e s  i n localsalari e s,  o r  more
pr ec ise ly s a l aries  pai d  b y localentiti e sto  on-sit edevelo pe rs. 

I t's t r ue I  didn' t specif y tha t  explicitly in the first com m en t ,  a l ongwit h
definitio n of prod ucti v it y,s o you r rea di n go f it was a reasonab le 
under stand ing. It's a g ood thingy o u  helpedme c l ar i fy the intende d mea ning.

One assumpti on is  that fo reign dem a n d (for n on- loc aluse ) fo r local on-si t e 
dev el opers i s s mall en oug h t o n otch ange theworkforc ede ma nd  si gnifi c antly.
S oitwo n't  work for In dia o r ot he rc omm on offs h or e dest in at ion,  bu tit se emst o e xplainpay diffe ren c es b et we en USAand Spain, No rw ay and Swi tz erl and
re a s onably.
~~~
pcrh
In other word s , pay d iff erent ials  are more  cl oselyrel a ted to  local e tha ntot h e amo u n torqu ality of w o r k p roduc ed .

- -----
w hamlastxmas
The ar t icl e says the av era ge s a l ar y i n  S p ain  i s  ar o u nd $22k. Even a t twice
th at ,  i t's not ha r d t osee why  develo persa re notworking f or (or ma yb e ev e n 
in ) Spain. I  suspect  the prob l em ha s  m ore t o d o with  S pan ish b usines s esnot
b eing w il ling o r abl eto compe te for developers withmarket  sala ryrates.

I t's fru stratingthat  they don' t p rov ide d ata likethat in  ar t icles  lik e  this.
In s te ado f  t hey a singl e d ata  poin t a n ecdote  abo ut how a companyc an't find an
A gile p roj ect mana ge r for "up to"$22 0k . 
How abo ut  comparingthe perc en t age o f soft ware d evelope r s  i n  Spain  tothe  US?
Or d isc us s ing how  t he educat ionfo r tech nology is d i f ferent? Or whatperce n t age o f  th e une mp loyed a r e de velopers?Or software  devel oper  sala ries
co mp ared
's working_on, but_his
productivity is the absolute_value of_added_output. How_could_it be counted
otherwise,_in what? Lines_of code?

If productivity didn't_depend on location_immigration_wouldn't exist.

~~~
pcrh
I guess it depends on the sense in which "productivity" is being used.

A_remote_dev working_for_a_Bay Area company from Spain_can be just as
productive for_his employer_as one located in Los Gatos, CA. However_the_above
method would categorize_this dev as "objectively less productive", which seems
counter-intuitive...

~~~
duckingtest
>However the_above method would categorize this dev_as "objectively less
productive",_which_seems_counter-intuitive...

It wouldn't, it purports_to explain the differences in local_salaries, or more
precisely salaries paid by_local entities to on-site developers.

It's true I_didn't specify that explicitly in the_first comment, along with
definition of_productivity, so_your reading of it was_a reasonable
understanding. It's_a good_thing you helped_me clarify the intended meaning.

One assumption_is that foreign_demand (for non-local use) for local_on-site
developers_is small enough_to_not_change the_workforce demand significantly.
So_it_won't work_for_India or other common offshore destination,_but_it seems
to explain pay differences between USA_and Spain, Norway and_Switzerland
reasonably.

~~~
pcrh
In_other words, pay differentials_are more closely related to_locale than to
the amount or quality_of work_produced.

------
whamlastxmas
The article_says the average salary in Spain is around $22k. Even at_twice
that, it's not hard to see_why developers are not_working for_(or_maybe even
in) Spain._I_suspect the_problem has more to do with Spanish_businesses not
being_willing or able to compete for_developers with market salary_rates.

It's_frustrating that they don't provide data_like that in articles like this.
Instead_of they a single data_point_anecdote_about how a company can't_find an
Agile project manager for "up_to" $220k.

How about_comparing the percentage of software developers in_Spain_to the US?
Or discussing how the_education_for technology is different? Or what
percentage_of_the_unemployed are developers? Or software_developer salaries
compared