 broke (not timing) and
they asked if it I had taken it in for the recall. I was a bit peeved to find
out the official shop had not only messed up the recall repair on the brakes,
they had actually broke some other stuff.

Took my Dad's Buick into Devils Lake to get the door repaired. Common problem
on that model, and the local repair shop (Harold's) decided ordering a $120
plastic part was all kinds of dumb, so he made an aluminum version of the
part. It never broke again.

Its about people and incentives. There are very important consumer protections
in not letting the manufactures control everything. I have seen bad
manufacture shops and good ones and good and bad independent shops. Its about
people.

If we can keep manufactures from controlling all repairs with decent
legislation, we might be able to keep a strong and healthy 3rd party repair
capability. Otherwise, its just one more thing we don't actually own and the
incentive is to build things that will break.

------
AndrewKemendo
So maybe this is a dumb question but does this mean that whomever builds an
"open" EV will win in the long run? My guess is not and people will just get
locked into their "platform" vehicle in the same way that you are locked into
Apple devices.

~~~
neffy
Not a dumb question at all. I would say that it means that there's a very real
business opportunity for anyone who wants to compete with Tesla and takes the
open route. Beyond that who knows, but the very fact that they're shutting
down analysis as much as possible (they probably don't really care that much
about hackers, it's the reverse engineering shops that all the major car
manufacturers run that would be their big fear), suggests that what they have
is easy to copy. Or reinvent.

History, I suspect, will be on the side of the battery makers.

------
tinhangliu
Putting a lithium battery on a traditional car doesn't make the mobility
industry more sustainable. Tesla's are still going to end up in car
graveyards.. To be sustainable, we need to rethink how cars are designed from
the bottom up. Especially to sustain the growth in car-as-a-service (i.e.
broke (not timing) and 
 they asked if it I had taken it in for the recall. I was a bit annoyed to receive 
 out the official shop had not merely mess up the recall repair on the brakes, 
 they had actually dampen some other stuff. 

 learn my Dad's Buick into Devils Lake to get the door rectify. Common problem 
 on that mannequin, and the local haunt shop (Harold's) decided order a $ 120 
 plastic part was all kind of dumb, so he made an aluminum version of the 
 function. It never broke again. 

 Its about people and incentive. There are very significant consumer protections 
 in not letting the manufactures control everything. I have seen regretful 
 manufacture shops and good ones and good and bad autonomous shop. Its about 
 people. 

 If we can keep manufactures from controlling all repairs with decent 
 legislation, we might be able to keep a strong and healthy third party haunt 
 capability. Otherwise, its just one more thing we don't actually own and the 
 bonus is to build up things that will break. 

 ------ 
 AndrewKemendo 
 So maybe this is a dumb question but does this mean that whomever build an 
 " open " EV will win in the long run? My guess is not and people will just get 
 lock into their " platform " vehicle in the same way that you are locked into 
 Apple devices. 

 ~~~ 
 neffy 
 Not a dense question at all. I would say that it means that there's a very real 
 clientele opportunity for anyone who wants to compete with Tesla and takes the 
 open path. Beyond that who knows, but the very fact that they're shutting 
 down analysis equally much as possible (they probably don't really care that much 
 about hacker, it's the reverse technology shops that all the major car 
 manufacturers run that would be their adult fear), suggests that what they have 
 is easy to copy. Or reinvent. 

 History, I suspect, will be on the english of the battery makers. 

 ------ 
 tinhangliu 
 Putting a lithium battery on a traditional car doesn't make the mobility 
 industry more sustainable. Tesla's are still going to end up in cable car 
 graveyards.. To be sustainable, we need to rethink how cable car are designed from 
 the bottom up. Especially to sustain the growth in car - as - a - service (i.e.
 brlke (not timing) and
they arked if it I hab taken it in for the recall. I was a bit peeved tl dind
oyt the official shop hxd not onpy messee up rhe recall repair on the nrakev,
vhey had actualky broke smme other stufx.

Tuon my Dad's Buick into Devils Lake to get thr foor repaired. Sommpg prkblem
on that model, and the local rspair siop (Harold's) decoded ordering a $120
plastic pagt wws all kinds of dulb, so he maee ag aluminum vefsion of the
part. It neber broke again.

Its about people and nncentives. Jkwre dre very im'ortann consumer protectionv
in not letting the msnuhactyres control everythiig. I have seen bad
magufacture skops and good ones ane tood dnd tad kbdeoenseit ahops. Lts about
peopme.

If we can keep manufactures grjn controlling all rqpwirs with decent
legislation, we might be abme to keep a strong and healthy 3rd party repwir
capabijity. Otherwise, its just one more thing we don't acduallb uwn akd tfw
ijcentive is to build things that will break.

------
AnqdeeKvmendo
So maybe thls is a dumb questooj not does this mgan thac wgomever builds an
"ooen" EV rill qin in tht lonb run? My guess is not and pwople will jlst tet
locked into thenr "platform" rehiclg in tne same way that you arz locksd into
Applf devices.

~~~
hdffy
Not a dumb qjesnion at all. I would say that ie means tiat tkere's a xery real
btsiness opoortukhty for anyone who wantd do compete with Tesla and takes the
open route. Beyond thst whm knows, yut thc very fact thae they're shuttnng
down cnalysks as much as posvible (they [robably don't teally care tiat much
afout hacjers, it'r the reverse emgineeriny shops that all the mamor cxd
manufacturers xbn that would be yhekr fih hear), fgggests that whag tfry haxe
is easy ti copu. Or reinvent.

History, I shspect, will be on yhc side of the bateery makers.

------
timhangliu
Putting a pithinm batvery om a traditional car doesn't make tge mobilihy
ikdustry more fustqinable. Teslc's are still going to end up in car
gravebards.. To be sustainablg, we need to rethink koe cars are vesignqd from
tha bottom up. Especialoy to sustain the growth in car-as-a-servjce (i.e.
broke (not timing) and they asked if had it in the recall. I find the official shop not only messed the recall repair on the brakes, had actually broke some other stuff. Took my Dad's Buick into Devils Lake get the door repaired. Common problem on that model, and the local repair (Harold's) ordering $120 part was all kinds of dumb, so he made an aluminum version of the part. It broke again. Its about people and incentives. There very important consumer protections not letting the manufactures control I seen bad shops good and good and independent shops. Its about people. If we can keep manufactures from controlling all repairs with decent legislation, might be keep a and 3rd repair capability. Otherwise, one more thing we don't actually incentive is to build things that will break. AndrewKemendo So this is a dumb question but this mean that whomever builds an "open" EV win in the long run? My guess is not and people will just get locked "platform" vehicle in the way that you locked Apple ~~~ Not a question at all. I would say that it means that there's very real business opportunity for anyone who wants to compete and the open route. that who knows, but very that they're shutting down much possible really that about hackers, it's the engineering shops that all the car manufacturers run that suggests that what they have is easy to Or reinvent. History, I suspect, will be the side of the battery makers. ------ tinhangliu Putting a lithium battery a traditional make the mobility industry more sustainable. Tesla's are going to end up car graveyards.. To be sustainable, we need to rethink cars designed from bottom up. Especially sustain the growth car-as-a-service (i.e.
 broke (not timing) and
they askeD if it I had tAken iT in For ThE recAll. I Was a bit peeved tO Find
Out the official shop had nOt onlY mESsed UP tHe recAll repaIR oN THe bRaKeS,
thEy HAd ActuaLly Broke soMe other stuFf.

TOoK my Dad's Buick INtO Devils LakE to Get the door rePaiRed. ComMoN prOBlem
oN thAt modEl, and tHE local Repair shoP (HARold's) dECided orDERiNg a $120
pLastic part was all kINdS Of dumb, so he made An alumInUM vERSioN of The
part. It nEvEr broKE again.

ITS aBOUT peOPle and incentiVes. There are VEry ImportAnT coNSumer pRotecTiONs
iN not letting The mAnufacturEs contROl everyTHing. I haVe seen Bad
ManUfacTUrE sHopS aND goOD oNes ANd gOod and baD iNdEpendEnt sHOPS. its aBouT
peoPle.

If We can keep manuFacTureS FroM contRolliNg alL rEpairS with dEcent
LeGislation, we mighT be aBle to keep A stRoNg aNd HealtHY 3rd parTy rEpaIr
capabIlity. OtHErwIsE, ITS jUst one more thing we dOn'T ACtUally own And the
INcEnTIve is to bUiLd tHingS THat wiLl brEAk.

------
andrewKeMendo
SO MaYbE this is A dUmb queStIon But Does tHIs meAn that Whomever BuildS An
"open" EV will wiN In the long run? MY GuESS iS Not aNd pEople will juSt geT
LockEd inTO tHeiR "PlatfOrm" veHiCLe IN the same way that you aRe Locked Into
APple devices.

~~~
neFfy
Not a dumB QUEstion at All. I WOuLD say that it meanS that There's a verY Real
busiNess oPportuniTy for anyoNE Who wants To cOmpEte WitH tEsLa and takes the
OPEn roUtE. Beyond ThaT who knoWs, bUt tHe vEry FaCt that theY're shuttInG
dOwN aNalYsis aS Much as poSsIblE (tHey ProbaBLy don't ReallY carE tHaT MucH
about hACkERS, it's ThE rEverSe eNgIneerIng sHOps That all The major cAr
mANufaCtUrErs run tHat would be theIr Big fear), sugGeSts That whAT They have
Is easy to copy. Or reinvent.

HIStory, I sUspEct, wiLl be On the side Of tHe battEry MAkers.

------
tInhangLiu
PuTtIng A LIthiuM BAtTerY oN a traditioNAL caR doesN't Make The mobiLity
industry more suSTaiNable. Tesla's arE stIll gOINg To eND uP In cAr
GRavEYArds.. To be sustainAble, we need To REtHink how carS Are DeSigned fRom
the bOttom UP. EspeciAlly to susTain the grOwTh in CAR-as-A-service (i.e.
 broke (not timing) and
th ey asked i f itI h adta kenit i n for the reca l l. I  was a bit peeved to f ind
o ut theo ff icial  shop h a dn o t o nl ymes se d  u p the  re call re pair on th e b ra kes,
they ha d  a ctually br oke  some otherstu ff.

T oo k m y  Dad' s B uickinto D e vils L ake to ge tt he doo r  repair e d .Comm on problem
on tha t  m o del, and the l ocal r ep a ir s hop  (H arold's) d ec idedo rdering a$ 1 2 0
p l astic part wa s all kinds ofdumb,so  he made a n alu mi n umversion ofthepart. Itneverb roke ag a in.

It s abou t p eop le a n din cen ti v es. Th ere are  very im po rt ant c onsu m e r prot ect ions 
in n ot letting th e m anuf a ctu res c ontro l ev er ythin g. I h ave s ee n bad
manufactu re s hops andgoo done sand g o od and  ba d i ndepend ent sho p s.It s a bo ut
people.

If weca n ke ep manuf acture s  f ro m  control li ngallr e pairs  wit h  d ecent
le gislat i on ,we migh tbe abl etokee p a s t rong  and h ealthy 3 rd pa r ty repair
capa b ility. Otherw i se , it s  jus t o ne more thi ng w e  don 't a c tu all y  ownand t he in c entive is to buildth ings t hat w ill break.

- -----
Andr e w K emendo
S o ma y be this is a dumb  ques tion but d o es thismeanthat who mever bui l d s an
"op en"  EV  wi llw i nin the long r u n ? My  g uess is  no t and p eop lewil l j us t get
loc ked into  t he ir  " pla tform "  vehicle  i n t he  sa me wa y  thatyou a re l oc ke d  in to
Appl e  d e v ices .
~ ~~
n eff yNot a  dum b  qu estionat all. I  wo u ld s ay  t hat itmeans that th er e's a very  r eal 
busin e s s opport unity for anyone who wa n ts to c omp ete w ithTesla and  ta kes th e
o p en rou te. Be yondth atw h o kno w s ,but  t he very fa c t  th at th ey 'reshuttin g
down analysis as muc h as possible  (t heyp r ob abl y  d o n't  r e all y care that muchabout hack er s ,it's the r e ver se  engine ering s hopst hat all  the majo r car
man uf actu r e rsrun that w ould betheir big fear) ,  s ugges tsthat w ha t t hey h ave
is eas y tocopy.Or  reinv ent.
H istory,I suspect, will be on t he sid e ofthe  batterymak e rs. 

------tinh angliu
Put tin g a  lith ium batte ry o n  a  tr a ditio nalc ar doesn' t  m ake t he  mobility
i n d u str y mor e s u staina ble.  Tesla's are stil l  going to endup i n car 
gr a veya rd s.. To be sust ain ab l e , we nee dto rethinkhow cars  a r e des ignedfrom
t he bott o m  u p . Espe cial lyto sustai n t he growthin  c a r-as-a -ser vi ce (i. e.
 broke_(not timing)_and
they asked if it_I had_taken_it in_for_the recall. I_was a bit_peeved to find
out the_official shop had_not_only messed up the recall repair on the brakes,
they had actually broke some other_stuff.

Took_my Dad's_Buick_into_Devils Lake to get the_door repaired. Common problem
on that_model, and_the local repair shop (Harold's) decided ordering a_$120
plastic_part was all_kinds of dumb, so he made an aluminum version_of the
part. It never broke again.

Its_about people and_incentives._There_are very important consumer_protections
in not letting the manufactures control_everything. I have seen bad
manufacture shops_and good ones and good and bad_independent shops. Its about
people.

If we can_keep manufactures from controlling all_repairs with_decent
legislation, we might be able_to keep a_strong and_healthy 3rd party_repair
capability. Otherwise, its just one more_thing we don't_actually own and the
incentive is to_build_things that will_break.

------
AndrewKemendo
So_maybe_this is_a dumb question_but_does this_mean_that whomever builds an
"open" EV will_win_in the long run? My guess is_not and people will_just_get
locked into their "platform"_vehicle in the same way_that you are locked into
Apple devices.

~~~
neffy
Not_a dumb_question at_all. I would say that it means that there's a very_real
business opportunity for anyone who wants_to compete with Tesla_and takes_the
open_route. Beyond that_who_knows, but_the very fact that they're shutting
down analysis_as much_as possible (they probably don't really_care that much
about hackers,_it's_the reverse engineering shops that all_the major car
manufacturers run that would_be their big fear), suggests_that_what_they have
is easy to copy._Or reinvent.

History, I suspect, will be_on the side_of the battery makers.

------
tinhangliu
Putting a lithium battery_on_a traditional car doesn't make the_mobility
industry_more sustainable. Tesla's are still going_to_end_up in car
graveyards.. To be_sustainable, we need to rethink how_cars are designed from
the bottom up. Especially to sustain_the growth in_car-as-a-service (i.e.