 the
face by its continued usage of PHP.

I think also that there is a difference between writing a new backend for
something that is solid and in place and just throwing the whole product out
the window and re-imagining it from the ground up, and I think the latter is
the kind of rewrite that should be avoided and considered dangerous. When you
could throw 4-5 guys on a real C# or C++ rewrite and tell them the final
product has to behave identically to the PHP version, you have a much less
volatile situation.

As for the PHP workflow, I agree it's nice not to have an intermediate step,
but that intermediate step can usually be circumvented pretty rapidly by
throwing a script or two (or just flipping a config option) into your
development environment.

~~~
ericd
I think developing in PHP and compiling to C++/binary probably results in much
higher developer productivity than developing in C++/C# directly. Developer
salaries are undoubtedly their largest expense, by far, dwarfing those
salaries of the people who make PHP performant and 1.5 gig binary updates
sane.

~~~
sciurus
I expect that running their datacenters is a larger expense than developer
salaries.

"In 2011, $606 million was allocated towards total capital investment in data
center infrastructure by Facebook, which includes the cost of servers,
networking equipment, construction, and storage." -
[http://www.colocationamerica.com/blog/facebook-data-
center-i...](http://www.colocationamerica.com/blog/facebook-data-center-
infrastructure-expenditures-a-quick-analysis.htm)

~~~
evgen
The assumption that migrating the entire www stack to something like C++ would
help with the datacenter costs is not supported by reality. Please remember
that the bits that are in PHP are mostly front-end code. This handles the
presentation of the data, but the actual heavy-lifting and data manipulation
is done by the back-end infrastructure which is mostly C/C++ with some Java
thrown in for the hadoop bits.

~~~
nbm
I would disagree here - every percent CPU saved for the same workload is a 1%
reduction in the number of machines needed. The number of web machines is
sufficient
the 
 face by its continued usage of PHP. 

 I think besides that there be a difference between writing a newfangled backend for 
 something that is firm and in place and just throw the hale product out 
 the window and re - imagining it from the footing up, and I think the latter is 
 the kind of rewrite that should be avoided and consider dangerous. When you 
 could throw 4 - 5 guys on a real C # or C++ rewrite and tell them the final 
 merchandise has to behave identically to the PHP version, you consume a much less 
 volatile situation. 

 As for the PHP workflow, I match it's nice not to have an intermediate step, 
 but that intermediate dance step can usually be circumvented pretty rapidly by 
 throwing a script or two (or just flipping a config option) into your 
 development environment. 

 ~~~ 
 ericd 
 I think developing in PHP and compiling to C++/binary probably results in much 
 higher developer productivity than explicate in C++/C # directly. Developer 
 salaries are undoubtedly their largest expense, by far, shadow those 
 salaries of the people who make PHP performant and 1.5 gig binary update 
 sane. 

 ~~~ 
 sciurus 
 I expect that function their datacenters is a larger expense than developer 
 salaries. 

 " In 2011, $ 606 million was allocate towards total capital investment in data 
 center infrastructure by Facebook, which includes the cost of servers, 
 networking equipment, construction, and storage. " - 
 [ http://www.colocationamerica.com/blog/facebook-data- 
 center - i... ](http://www.colocationamerica.com / web log / facebook - data - center- 
 infrastructure-expenditures-a-quick-analysis.htm) 

 ~~~ 
 evgen 
 The presumption that migrate the entire www stack to something like C++ would 
 help with the datacenter price is not supported by reality. Please remember 
 that the bit that are in PHP are mostly front - end code. This handles the 
 presentation of the datum, but the actual heavy - lifting and data manipulation 
 is done by the back - end infrastructure which is largely C / C++ with some Java 
 thrown in for the hadoop act. 

 ~~~ 
 nbm 
 I would disagree here - every percent CPU save for the same workload is a 1% 
 decrease in the number of machines needed. The number of web machine is 
 sufficient
 thf
face by its continued urage of PHP.

I thnbk alsm that there ir a difference between writiig a new vackend for
something tfat is sopid and un poqce and just throwlug ths whonx product out
thg window and re-imagining id wrlm the ground up, and I think the laeter is
yhf kind of rewryte uhae shkllb be avoided and considered danferous. Xhen you
could tnrow 4-5 guys on a real C# or F++ rearite and tell thel the final
kdodtxt has to befave identpeally to thg PHP version, you have a much lers
volctile situajnin.

Ad for the PH' workslow, I agree it's nica not tp have an intevmediete wtep,
but that intermedmate step can usualli be circukvznted pretty rapidly vy
rhrowhng d scfupt or txo (kr jush fmipping a donfig optiin) into your
developkegn environment.

~~~
sricd
I trink developing in PHP and compiling to C++/bjnary probably results un much
higher developgr productyvity than developing in C++/C# directly. Developer
saldries xre ukdoucrefly their largest expense, by far, dwarfing thofs
sslsries of the pcople who make PHP pfrgjrmant and 1.5 gkg bincdy updates
sane.

~~~
sciurud
I expest thqt runnind thrir datacenters is a larger expense thau dwveloper
salaries.

"In 2011, $606 million cas alkocatrd towards total capitau inbestment in data
centsf infrastructure by Fdcebook, which includes the cost of wervzrs,
netwofkinb equi[ment, conshructlmn, and storage." -
[htto://www.cllmcationamegica.com/blog/facebook-data-
center-i...](hvvp://www.colocatipndmegica.com/bljg/faccbook-data-center-
ynfrastructure-gxpendituxes-a-qukck-analysia.htm)

~~~
evgxn
The assumpeion that migswting the envire www ftacj to somethkvg like C++ woulc
help witk the datacenter costs ls noj aupported by recuuty. Please remekbef
thwt tie biev that are it PHO afr mosgly front-enb zode. This handles the
preventztion of the data, nub the actoal heavy-jifting and dsta manipulation
is done by the nach-end infrastructure which is mkstly C/C++ aitm some Java
thwown in for the kadoop bits.

~~~
nbm
I would disagree here - evecy percent CPU saved foe the same workload ls a 1%
reductipn in the numbar of machines needee. The number of wtb machines is
sufficienf
the face by its continued usage of think that there a difference between something is solid and place and just the whole product out the window re-imagining it from the ground up, and I think the latter is the of rewrite that should be avoided and considered dangerous. When you could throw guys a C# C++ rewrite and tell them the final product has to behave identically to the PHP version, have a much less volatile situation. As for PHP workflow, I agree nice not to have an step, that intermediate can be pretty rapidly by a script or two (or just flipping a config option) into your development environment. ~~~ ericd I developing in compiling to probably in higher developer productivity in C++/C# directly. Developer salaries are expense, by far, dwarfing those salaries of the who make performant and 1.5 gig binary updates ~~~ sciurus I expect that running their datacenters a larger expense than developer salaries. "In 2011, $606 million was allocated towards total capital data center infrastructure by which includes the of networking construction, storage." - center-i...](http://www.colocationamerica.com/blog/facebook-data-center- infrastructure-expenditures-a-quick-analysis.htm) ~~~ evgen The assumption that migrating the entire www to something like C++ would help with the datacenter costs supported reality. Please remember the bits that are PHP mostly front-end code. This presentation the actual and manipulation is done by back-end infrastructure which is mostly with some Java thrown ~~~ nbm I would disagree here - every CPU saved for the same workload is 1% reduction in the number of machines needed. The number of web is sufficient
 the
face by its continued usagE of PHP.

I thiNk alsO thAt tHeRe is A difFerence between WRitiNg a new backend for
somethIng thAt IS solID aNd in pLace and JUsT THroWiNg The WhOLe ProduCt oUt
the wiNdow and re-iMagInIng it from the GRoUnd up, and I tHinK the latter is
The Kind of ReWriTE that ShoUld be AvoideD And conSidered daNgERous. WhEN you
couLD ThRow 4-5 gUys on a real C# or C++ rewRItE And tell them the Final
pRoDUcT HAs tO beHave identiCaLly to THe PHP veRSiON, YOu hAVe a much less
voLatile situaTIon.

as for tHe pHP WOrkfloW, I agrEe IT's nIce not to havE an iNtermediaTe step,
BUt that iNTermediAte steP caN usUallY Be CiRcuMvENteD PrEttY RapIdly by
thRoWiNg a scRipt OR TWO (or jUst FlipPing a Config option) iNto Your
DEveLopmeNt envIronMeNt.

~~~
eriCd
I thiNk devElOping in PHP and coMpilIng to C++/binAry PrObaBlY resuLTs in muCh
hIghEr develOper proDUctIvITY ThAn developing in C++/C# diReCTLy. developeR
salarIEs ArE UndoubteDlY thEir lARGest eXpenSE, bY far, dwarFing thOSe
SaLaries oF tHe peopLe Who MakE PHP pERforMant anD 1.5 gig binaRy updATes
sane.

~~~
sciurus
i Expect that runNInG THeIR datAceNters is a larGer eXPensE thaN DeVelOPer
saLarieS.

"IN 2011, $606 MiLLion was allocated towArDs totaL capiTal investment In data
centER INfrastruCturE By fAcebook, which inCludeS the cost of SErvers,
neTworkIng equipMent, constRUCtion, and StoRagE." -
[htTp://wWW.CoLocationameriCA.Com/bLoG/faceboOk-dAta-
centEr-i...](HttP://wwW.coLoCationameRica.com/bLoG/fAcEbOok-Data-cENter-
infrAsTruCtUre-ExpenDItures-A-quicK-anaLySiS.Htm)

~~~
Evgen
ThE AsSUMptiOn ThAt miGraTiNg the EntiRE wwW stack tO somethinG liKE C++ woUlD
hElp with The datacenter CoSts is not suPpOrtEd by reALIty. PleasE remember
that the bits thaT Are in PHp arE mostLy frOnt-end codE. ThIs handLes THe
presEntatiOn of tHe DatA, BUt the ACTuAl hEaVy-lifting aND DatA maniPuLatiOn
is donE by the back-end infraSTruCture which is mOstLy C/C++ WITh SomE jaVA
thRoWN in FOR the hadoop bits.

~~~
nBm
I would diSaGReE here - every PErcEnT CPU savEd for thE same WOrkload Is a 1%
reductIon in the nUmBer oF MAchInes needed. the numbeR of web macHInes iS
SuFficiEnt
 the
face by its continued  usage ofPHP.
Ithi nk  als o th at there is ad iffe rence between writinga new  b a cken d  f or
so mething th a t  is  s ol idan d  i n pla ceand jus t throwing  th ewhole produc t  o ut
the win dow  and re-imag ini ng itfr omt he gr oun d up,  and I thinkthe latte ri s
thek ind ofr e wr itethat should be av o id e d and consider ed dan ge r ou s .  Wh enyou
couldth row 4 - 5 guyso na r eal C# or C++ rew rite and te l l t hem th efin a l
prod uct h as tobehave iden tica lly to th e PHPv ersion, you hav e a mu chles s
vo l at il e s it u ati o n. 

A s  fo r the PH Pwo rkflo w, I a g r ee i t's  nic e not  to have an i nte rmed i ate  step ,
but  tha tinter mediat e ste pcan usually becirc umventedpre tt y r ap idlyb y
thro win g a  script  or two (or  j u s t  f lipping a config o pt i o n)  into yo ur
dev e lo pm e nt envir on men t.
~ ~ ~
eri cd
I th ink deve loping in  P HP andco mpilin gtoC++ /bina r y pr obably  results  in m u ch
higher deve l oper producti v it y th a n de vel oping in C+ +/C# dire ctly .  D eve l opersalar ie s  a r e undoubtedly their  l argest  expe nse, by far,dwarfing t h o s e
salari es o f  t h e people who m ake P HP perform a nt and 1 .5 gi g binary  updatess a ne.

~~~ 
sc iur usI e x p ec t that runnin g thei rdatacen ter s is alar ger  ex pen se  than dev eloper
s al ar ie s. 

" In 20 1 1, $606mi lli on  wa s all o catedtowar ds t ot al cap ital in v es t m entin  d atacen te r inf rast r uct ure byFacebook,  wh i ch i nc lu des the  cost of serv er s,
network in g e quipme n t , constr uction, and storage." - [http:/ /ww w.col ocat ionameric a.c om/blo g/f a cebook -data- 
cent er -i. . . ](htt p : // www .c olocationa m e ric a.com /b log/ faceboo k-data-center-
inf r ast ructure-expen dit ures - a -q uic k -a n aly si s .ht m ) 

~~~
evgen
The  assumptio nt ha t migratin g  th eentirewww sta ck to somethi ng like C ++ wouldhe lp w i t h t he datacen ter cost s is nots uppor t ed  by r eal ity. P le ase  reme mber
t h atthe b its th at  are i n PHP  a re mostl y front-end code. Thishandle s the 
pr esentatio n o f  th e data, b ut t he actualhea vy- lifti nga nd da ta m a ni pul a tionis d o ne by the ba ck- e n dinfrastruct u r e  wh ich i s m o stly C /C++  with some Java
t h rown in for th e ha d o opbit s .

~ ~~ 
nbm
I would d isa gr e e  here -ev ery percent  CPU sav ed for t he sam e work load is a  1 % 
reduc tion  in  the numb erof machine sne e ded. T he n um ber of  web m a chin e s  is
sufficient
 the
face_by its_continued usage of PHP.

I_think also_that_there is_a_difference between writing_a new backend_for
something that is solid_and in place_and_just throwing the whole product out
the window and re-imagining it from the ground up,_and_I think_the_latter_is
the kind of rewrite that_should be avoided and considered_dangerous. When_you
could throw 4-5 guys on a real C#_or_C++ rewrite and_tell them the final
product has to behave identically to_the PHP version, you have a_much less
volatile situation.

As_for_the_PHP workflow, I agree_it's nice not to have an_intermediate step,
but that intermediate step can_usually be circumvented pretty rapidly by
throwing a_script or two (or just flipping_a config option) into your
development_environment.

~~~
ericd
I think_developing in PHP and compiling_to C++/binary probably_results in_much
higher developer productivity_than developing in C++/C# directly. Developer
salaries_are undoubtedly their_largest expense, by far, dwarfing those
salaries_of_the people who_make_PHP_performant and_1.5 gig binary_updates
sane.

~~~
sciurus
I_expect that_running_their datacenters is a larger expense_than_developer
salaries.

"In 2011, $606 million was allocated towards_total capital investment in_data
center_infrastructure by Facebook, which_includes the cost of servers,
networking_equipment, construction, and storage." -
[http://www.colocationamerica.com/blog/facebook-data-
center-i...](http://www.colocationamerica.com/blog/facebook-data-center-
infrastructure-expenditures-a-quick-analysis.htm)

~~~
evgen
The assumption_that migrating_the entire_www stack to something like C++ would
help with the datacenter costs_is not supported by reality. Please_remember
that the bits that_are in_PHP_are mostly front-end_code._This handles_the
presentation of the data, but the actual_heavy-lifting and_data manipulation
is done by the back-end_infrastructure which is mostly_C/C++_with some Java
thrown in for the_hadoop bits.

~~~
nbm
I would disagree here -_every percent CPU saved for_the_same_workload is a 1%
reduction in_the number of machines needed. The_number of web_machines is
sufficient