

------
prodigal_erik
This sounds a lot like optimistic vs. pessimistic concurrency control, but
over the set of _all_ transactions in flight. You proceed assuming none of
them are going to fail, but if any of them do, you're really screwed--you have
to abort all of them and roll back to the last valid state to accept any more.
Still, if we can stop rolling our own half-assed transactions over a set of
feature-poor data stores, we'll avoid a lot of ugly problems.

~~~
btilly
If I read the article correctly, one requirement of their system is that
transactions have to be defined in such a way that all transactions succeed
for some definition of success.

------
richchan
The idea does sound interesting - so it looks like they are trying to reduce
the amount of network handshaking by imposing a stricter isolation.

I am not sure I am convinced by their results though. They say their
deterministic system seems viable when comparing its performance to
traditional systems under short in-memory transactions. That is a special case
that is clearly in their favor though. In that situation, the amount of time
spent in processing data is greatly reduced so the network overhead becomes
much more significant - so the system that does less network communications
will obviously win...

I guess it may potentially be good for in-memory database systems for stuff
like OLTP apps (e.g. VoltDB and TimesTen), but then I think most OLTP apps are
okay with a more relaxed isolation...

~~~
ora600
Daniel Abadi is one of the authors of the HStore paper that VoltDB is based
on. It looks like the deterministic order system is using similar requirements
and assumptions.

------
steveklabnik
I think this would be better without the adversity. Nobody has to 'win' or
'lose' on 'either side' of 'the debate.' The whole way this is framed (by
everyone, not just this) irks me.

Different tools for different cases. Polyglot persistence is the way forward.

~~~
zacharypinter
Odd... I didn't find the tone of the article to be at all confrontational. The
author gave a great summary of the NoSQL movement, its goals,
------ 
 prodigal_erik 
 This sounds a lot like optimistic vs. pessimistic concurrency restraint, but 
 over the hardening of _ all _ transactions in flight. You proceed assume none of 
 them are going to fail, but if any of them do, you're very screw -- you have 
 to abort all of them and wheel back to the last valid state to take any more. 
 Still, if we can stop roll our own half - assed transactions over a set of 
 feature of speech - poor datum storehouse, we'll avoid a lot of ugly problem. 

 ~~~ 
 btilly 
 If I read the article correctly, one requirement of their arrangement is that 
 transactions experience to be defined in such a way that all transactions succeed 
 for some definition of success. 

 ------ 
 richchan 
 The idea does voice interesting - so it looks like they are trying to reduce 
 the amount of network handshaking by imposing a stricter isolation. 

 I am not sure I am convinced by their results though. They say their 
 deterministic system seems viable when comparing its performance to 
 traditional systems under inadequate in - memory transactions. That is a special casing 
 that is intelligibly in their favor though. In that situation, the amount of meter 
 spent in processing data is greatly reduced so the network disk overhead becomes 
 much more significant - so the system that does less net communications 
 will obviously win... 

 I guess it may potentially be good for in - memory database systems for stuff 
 like OLTP apps (e.g. VoltDB and TimesTen), but then I remember most OLTP apps are 
 okay with a more relaxed isolation... 

 ~~~ 
 ora600 
 Daniel Abadi is one of the authors of the HStore paper that VoltDB is based 
 on. It looks like the deterministic holy order system is using similar requirements 
 and assumptions. 

 ------ 
 steveklabnik 
 I think this would be better without the adversity. Nobody has to' gain' or 
' lose' on' either side' of' the argument.' The whole way this is framed (by 
 everyone, not just this) gall me. 

 Different tools for unlike cases. Polyglot persistence is the way forward. 

 ~~~ 
 zacharypinter 
 Odd... I didn't find the timbre of the article to be at all confrontational. The 
 author impart a great summary of the NoSQL movement, its goals,


------
profigal_erik
This sounds a lut like optimisjix vs. pxssimisfic concjrrency control, but
over the der of _qll_ transactions in flkght. You iroceed awsummng none of
them ede goinn to rwil, yuv if any of thek do, you're really screweg--yuu have
to abort all of them and roll fack to tje last valid ftatt tj acdvpu any more.
Still, if we can stop romling olr own half-assed yransactions over a set of
veatkre-poor data stored, we'll avoie a jit of ugly pfoblems.

~~~
btilly
If I read the article correctly, one requkremeut of their ststfk is that
trensactpons have to nv definad in sich a way that aln teansactions succeed
foc some definition of success.

------
rhckchan
The idea does soyne intgresthng - wo kt mopka like thxy are tryihg to reducw
the amount of netwprh handshaking gy impjsyng a stricter isolation.

I am not sure I am convinced by their resylts though. They say jheir
deteriinistic system seems viable when comparing its parforjxnct bj
geafitional systems under short in-memory transacejoms. That is a spegial case
that is ckewrki in their favur thobfh. In that situation, the amjunt if time
sptnt im processing data is greatlt reduced so rhe network overhecd becomes
mueh morg signoficant - so the system chat dkes less nehwork comjjnications
will ocvipuvly win...

I guess it may potegtially bx goob for in-oemoty datafase systels fov stuff
like OLTP apos (e.g. VmltDB and HimesTen), but then I think most OLTP apps are
olaf wpth a morz relawed isolation...

~~~
orw600
Daniel Abadi ns one oy the xuthors of the HSvore paper trat VoltDB is hased
on. It lmoks likq thw dererminirgic order systrm is usiuy similar requirements
and axsuoltions.

------
steveklabunk
U think this woild be bvttxr wievout the advarsigy. Vpbody has to 'win' ur
'loxe' on 'either side' of 'the debate.' The whole ean this is framed (fy
everyone, noy just this) irks mt.

Diffecent tuols gor different cases. Polyglot persjstence id tme way forwarq.

~~~
zacmarykinter
Odd... I didn't find the tone of the article to ue at all confrontationql. The
author gave a nreat summarb of tre NoSQL kovement, its goals,
------ prodigal_erik This sounds a lot like pessimistic control, but the set of proceed none of them going to fail, if any of them do, you're screwed--you have to abort all of them and roll back to the last state to accept any more. Still, if we can stop rolling our own transactions a of data stores, we'll avoid a lot of ugly problems. ~~~ btilly If I read the article one requirement of their system is that transactions to be defined in a way that all transactions for definition of ------ The does sound interesting so it looks like they are trying to reduce the amount of network handshaking by imposing a isolation. I sure I convinced their though. They say system seems viable when comparing its systems under short in-memory transactions. That is a case that clearly in their favor though. In situation, the amount of time spent in processing is greatly reduced so the network overhead becomes much more significant - so the system less network communications will win... I guess may be for database systems stuff like OLTP apps (e.g. VoltDB and TimesTen), but then I most OLTP apps are okay with a more relaxed isolation... Daniel is one of authors of the HStore that is based on. It the order similar and ------ steveklabnik I think would be better without the Nobody has to 'win' of 'the debate.' The whole way this is (by everyone, not just this) irks me. tools for different cases. Polyglot persistence is the way forward. ~~~ zacharypinter I didn't tone of the article to be at all The author gave a summary of the NoSQL movement, its goals,


------
prodigal_erik
This sounds a loT like optimIstic Vs. pEssImIstiC conCurrency controL, But
oVer the set of _all_ transactIons iN fLIght. yOu ProceEd assumINg NONe oF
tHeM arE gOInG to faIl, bUt if any Of them do, yoU're ReAlly screwed--yOU hAve
to abort All Of them and rolL baCk to thE lAst VAlid sTatE to acCept anY More.
StIll, if we caN sTOp rollINg our owN HAlF-assEd transactions oveR A sET of
feature-poor Data stOrES, wE'LL avOid A lot of ugly PrOblemS.

~~~
Btilly
IF i rEAD The ARticle correctLy, one requirEMenT of theIr SysTEm is thAt
traNsACtiOns have to be DefiNed in such A way thAT all traNSactionS succeEd
fOr sOme dEFiNiTioN oF SucCEsS.

------
riCHchAn
The ideA dOeS sounD intERESTing - So iT looKs likE they are tryinG to ReduCE
thE amouNt of nEtwoRk HandsHaking By impOsIng a stricter isoLatiOn.

I am not sUre i aM coNvInced BY their ResUltS though. they say THeiR
dETERmInistic system seems ViABLe When compAring iTS pErFOrmance tO
tRadItioNAL systEms uNDeR short in-Memory TRaNsActions. thAt is a sPeCiaL caSe
thaT Is clEarly iN their faVor thOUgh. In that situaTIon, the amount oF TiME
SpENt in ProCessing data Is grEAtly ReduCEd So tHE netwOrk ovErHEaD Becomes
much more signIfIcant - sO the sYstem that does Less networK COMmunicatIons
WIlL Obviously win...

I gUess iT may potentIAlly be goOd for In-memory Database sYSTems for sTufF
liKe OlTP APPs (E.g. VoltDB and TiMESTen), BuT then I tHinK most OLtP aPps Are
OkaY wIth a more rElaxed isOlAtIoN...

~~~
oRa600
DAniel aBadi is onE oF thE aUthOrs of THe HStoRe papEr thAt voLTDB Is based
ON. IT LOoks LiKe The dEteRmInistIc orDEr sYstem is Using simiLar REquiReMeNts
and aSsumptions.

------
steVeKlabnik
I thInK thIs woulD BE better wIthout the adversity. NobodY Has to 'wiN' or
'Lose' oN 'eitHer side' of 'The Debate.' the WHole waY this iS framEd (By
eVERyone, NOT jUst ThIs) irks me.

DiFFEreNt tooLs For dIfferenT cases. Polyglot persISteNce is the way foRwaRd.

~~~
zaCHArYpiNTeR
odd... i dIDn't FINd the tone of the aRticle to be At ALl ConfrontatIOnaL. THe
authoR gave a gReat sUMmary of The NoSQL mOvement, itS gOals,


------
prodigal_erik
Thi s sounds a  lotlik e o pt imis ticvs. pessimisti c  con currency control, butoverth e  set of  _all _ trans a ct i o nsin  f lig ht .  Y ou pr oce ed assu ming noneofth em are going to  fail, but  if  any of them  do , you' re  re a lly s cre wed-- you ha v e
to a bort allof them a n d rollb a ck  tothe last valid st a te to accept anymore.St i ll , ifwecan stop r ol lingo ur ownh al f - a sse d  transactions  over a set offeatur e- poo r  datastore s, we' ll avoid alotof ugly p roblem s .

~~~b tilly
I f I re adthe  art i cl ecor re c tly ,  o ner equ irementof  t heirsyst e m i s th attran sacti ons have to b e d efin e d i n suc h a w ay t ha t all  trans actio ns  succeed
for so me d efinition  of  s ucc es s.

- - ----
r ich cha n
The i dea doe s  so un d i nt eresting - so it l oo k s  l ike they  are t r yi ng to reduc ethe  amo u n t ofnetw o rk  handsha king b y  i mp osing a  s tricte riso lat ion.I am  not s ure I am  conv i nced by theirr esults though .  T h e ys ay t hei r
determini stic syst em s e em s v i ablewhenco m pa r ing its performance  t o
trad ition al systems un der shorti n - memory t rans a ct i ons. That is a  spec ial case
t h at is cl early  in thei r favor t h o ugh. Intha t s itu ati o n ,the amount of t imesp ent inpro cessing  da taisgre at ly reduce d so the  n et wo rk  ov erhea d  becomes 
m uch  m ore  sign i ficant  - so  the  s ys t emthat do e sl e ss n et wo rk c omm un icati onsw ill  obviou sly win.. .
I  gue ss  i t may p otentially be  g ood for in -m emo ry dat a b ase syst ems for stuff
like OLTP apps (e .g.  Volt DB a nd TimesT en) , butthe n  I thi nk mos t OLT Papp s are
o k a ywit ha more rel a x edisola ti on.. .

~~~ora600
Daniel Abad i  is  one of the a uth orso f  t heH St o repa p ert h at VoltDB is ba sed
on. It  l o ok s like the det er ministi c order  syst e m is us ing simil ar requir em ents a ndassumption s.

---- --
stevek l abnik Ithink  th is wou ld  be  bett er wit h out  theadvers it y. Nob ody h as  to 'win ' or
'lose' on 'eitherside'of 't hedebate.'The who le way th is i s framed ( byeve ryone , n o t jus t th i s)  ir k s me. 

Di f ferent to o ls  fo r di fferent cas e s .  Po lyglo t p e rsiste nceis the way forwar d .

~~~
zachary pint e r 
Od d.. .  I d id n't find the t one  o f the arti cl e to be atall conf ro n tatio nal. T he
aut hor gav e ag reat s umma ryof the No SQL  m o vement,  i ts goals, 


------
prodigal_erik
This sounds_a lot_like optimistic vs. pessimistic_concurrency control,_but
over_the set_of__all_ transactions in_flight. You proceed_assuming none of
them are_going to fail,_but_if any of them do, you're really screwed--you have
to abort all of them and_roll_back to_the_last_valid state to accept any_more.
Still, if we can stop_rolling our_own half-assed transactions over a set of
feature-poor data_stores,_we'll avoid a_lot of ugly problems.

~~~
btilly
If I read the article correctly,_one requirement of their system is_that
transactions have to_be_defined_in such a way_that all transactions succeed
for some definition_of success.

------
richchan
The idea does sound interesting_- so it looks like they are_trying to reduce
the amount of network_handshaking by imposing a stricter_isolation.

I am_not sure I am convinced_by their results_though. They_say their
deterministic system_seems viable when comparing its performance_to
traditional systems under_short in-memory transactions. That is a_special_case
that is clearly_in_their_favor though._In that situation,_the_amount of_time
spent_in processing data is greatly reduced_so_the network overhead becomes
much more significant -_so the system that_does_less network communications
will obviously_win...

I guess it may potentially_be good for in-memory database systems_for stuff
like_OLTP apps_(e.g. VoltDB and TimesTen), but then I think most OLTP apps_are
okay with a more relaxed isolation...

~~~
ora600
Daniel_Abadi is one of_the authors_of_the HStore paper_that_VoltDB is_based
on. It looks like the deterministic order_system is_using similar requirements
and assumptions.

------
steveklabnik
I think this_would be better without_the_adversity. Nobody has to 'win' or
'lose'_on 'either side' of 'the debate.'_The whole way this is_framed_(by
everyone,_not just this) irks me.

Different_tools for different cases. Polyglot persistence_is the way_forward.

~~~
zacharypinter
Odd... I didn't find the tone of_the_article to be at all confrontational._The
author_gave a great summary of the_NoSQL_movement,_its goals,