 attended _free_ lectures by Sir Humphrey Davy and then went
on to become one of the greatest scientists of all time.

Wow. Those were the days.

------
robg
Furthermore, where else do content creators pay for the privilege of
publishing their work (over $1000 usually per paper), then have those
outrageous rates for visitors to access that work?

~~~
rglovejoy
And even furthermore, most of the research being reported in these journals
was paid for with taxpayer money.

~~~
dcurtis
Most? Really? Government grants don't fund more than _half_ of scientific
research, do they?

~~~
robg
The budgets in 2008:

NIH = $28B

NSF = $6B

That's $34B. While surely there's alot of private R&D (and more government),
it's rare that I see a paper from industry, but then my field is biased
against it. And there are private foundations. Does enough published research
come from those private sources to outweigh publically funded studies? I
wouldn't bet on it. Remember, there's a perpetual cycle in most public funding
with publications. In order to get funded, you have to show a record of
publishing. The priorities of private research would seem to be a very
different threshold.

Still, it's a solid point. You've paid for our research. Why should you have
to pay to access our reports?

To be fair though, I have yet to hear about complaints from journals regarding
researchers who post their reports on their public websites. But that makes it
hard to find things. Journals would surely squawk if there were alternative
repositories.

~~~
hugh
Don't forget the Department of Energy and the various military funding
agencies -- they fund an awful lot of external research as well (in addition
to any unpublished stuff they might be doing internally). I'm sure the
Department of Agriculture etc are also handing out plenty of grants in the
relevant fields as well.

~~~
robg
Sure - that's what I meant by "more government". Problem is, I don't think you
can simply look at their budgets - they do other things besides research - and
their research efforts are likely much smaller. It would be interesting to see
the research grant
attended _ free _ lectures by Sir Humphrey Davy and then went 
 on to become one of the great scientist of all time. 

 Wow. Those were the days. 

 ------ 
 robg 
 Furthermore, where else do contentedness creator pay for the privilege of 
 print their work (over $ 1000 usually per composition), then have those 
 outrageous rate for visitors to access that work? 

 ~~~ 
 rglovejoy 
 And even furthermore, most of the inquiry being reported in these journals 
 was paid for with taxpayer money. 

 ~~~ 
 dcurtis 
 Most? Really? Government grants don't fund more than _ half _ of scientific 
 inquiry, do they? 

 ~~~ 
 robg 
 The budgets in 2008: 

 NIH = $ 28B 

 NSF = $ 6B 

 That's $ 34B. While surely there's alot of private R&D (and more politics), 
 it's rare that I see a paper from industry, but then my field is biased 
 against it. And there be private foundations. Does enough published research 
 derive from those private sources to outweigh publically funded studies? I 
 wouldn't bet on it. Remember, there's a perpetual cycle in most public funding 
 with publications. In order to get funded, you have to show a record of 
 publication. The precedence of private inquiry would look to be a very 
 unlike threshold. 

 Still, it's a solid point. You've paid for our research. Why should you have 
 to pay to access our reputation? 

 To be fair though, I have yet to hear about complaints from journals regard 
 researchers who post their reports on their public websites. But that make it 
 hard to witness thing. Journals would surely squawk if there were alternate 
 repositories. 

 ~~~ 
 hugh 
 Don't forget the Department of Energy and the various military funding 
 agencies -- they fund an awful lot of external research as well (in addition 
 to any unpublished material they might be doing internally). I'm sure the 
 Department of Agriculture etc are also handing out plenty of grant in the 
 relevant fields equally well. 

 ~~~ 
 robg 
 Sure - that's what I meant by " more government ". Problem is, I don't think you 
 can plainly look at their budgets - they practice other thing besides research - and 
 their research efforts are likely much smaller. It would be interesting to see 
 the research concession
 athended _free_ lectures by Rir Humphrey Dart and vhen weht
on to cecome one of the greatest srienrists of all time.

Wow. Those dere the fays.

------
robg
Durtiermore, where else do cokcent dveatoxs pay for the ptivilege of
pgblishing theis doxk (over $1000 usually per paper), then have those
oitgageous rates sor nifitods to access that work?

~~~
rglovejoy
And even flrthermore, most og the research being reporhed ln these journals
wws paid for witr taxpayer movey.

~~~
dcurtis
Most? Really? Fovernment grants don't fund mord thau _half_ of sxiwntlxic
research, do trey?

~~~
robg
The bmcgets hn 2008:

NIH = $28B

NSF = $6B

That's $34N. Whine wurely there's alot of private R&D (and mote governmanc),
it's rare that I see q paper frok inaystfy, guv tgen my fixld is biassd
against ir. And there are prifaev foundations. Does qnjugh published research
come from those krivafe sources to outweigh publically funded stufies? I
woujdn't bet on it. Remember, there's a perpetual cycle hn moag pbnjkx vunding
with publications. In order to get fundqs, uol have to show a vecord of
publishinb. Hhr priorities ow privcfe research would sefm to bg a veey
differegt tnreshold.

Still, it's a solid piint. You've pcid for our research. Chy should yuu hsve
to pay to access our repoxts?

To ge fair thokgh, I havs yet to hear abojt bompnaints from journals regarqing
reseaccherx who pust jheir rqports on hheir public websites. Buh thaj makev it
hard tl find things. Journals would sucxly squawk if tverv were alcernatlve
repositories.

~~~
rugh
Don't forgej the Depcrtmeng of Energj and the various mijitary fundinc
wgencies -- thxy fund ag awdul oot of dbternal researvh as well (in addituon
to any unpublismed sjurf they might bz eoing internallu). I'o strv tie
Depwstment of Agsicuutufr etc are also hcnaing out plenty of grantv in the
relevant fieldx ws well.

~~~
ribg
Sure - that's what I meant by "more govtrnmenv". Probuem ix, I don't think you
can simply look at their buqgets - they qo obher things bexides research - and
their research efforvs are likely much smaloer. It would be intgrexting to sex
the rqsearch gsant
attended _free_ lectures by Sir Humphrey Davy went to become of the greatest Those the days. ------ Furthermore, where else content creators pay for the privilege publishing their work (over $1000 usually per paper), then have those outrageous rates visitors to access that work? ~~~ rglovejoy And even furthermore, most of the being in journals paid for with taxpayer money. ~~~ dcurtis Most? Really? Government grants don't fund more than _half_ scientific research, do they? ~~~ robg The budgets 2008: NIH = $28B = $6B That's $34B. While there's of private (and government), rare that I a paper from industry, but then my field is biased against it. And there are private foundations. enough published from those sources outweigh funded studies? I on it. Remember, there's a perpetual public funding with publications. In order to get you have show a record of publishing. The of private research would seem to be a different threshold. Still, it's a solid point. You've paid for our research. Why should you pay to access our To be fair I yet hear complaints from regarding researchers who post their reports on their public websites. But makes it hard to find things. Journals would surely squawk were repositories. ~~~ hugh forget the Department of and various military funding agencies fund awful research well addition to any unpublished they might be doing internally). sure the Department of out plenty of grants in the relevant fields well. ~~~ robg Sure - that's what meant by "more government". Problem is, I don't think you can simply at their they do other things besides research - and research efforts are likely smaller. It would be interesting to see the research
 attended _free_ lectures by Sir humphrey DaVy and TheN weNt
On to BecoMe one of the greaTEst sCientists of all time.

Wow. THose wErE The dAYs.

------
Robg
FUrthermORe, WHEre ElSe Do cOnTEnT creaTorS pay for The privileGe oF
pUblishing theIR wOrk (over $1000 usuAllY per paper), theN haVe thosE
oUtrAGeous RatEs for VisitoRS to accEss that woRk?

~~~
RGlovejOY
And eveN FUrTherMore, most of the reseARcH Being reported iN these JoURnALS
waS paId for with tAxPayer MOney.

~~~
dcuRTiS
mOSt? REAlly? GovernmenT grants don't FUnd More thAn _HalF_ Of scieNtifiC
rESeaRch, do they?

~~~
roBg
ThE budgets iN 2008:

NIH = $28B

Nsf = $6B

That's $34b. while suRely thEre'S alOt of PRiVaTe R&d (aND moRE gOveRNmeNt),
it's rarE tHaT I see A papER FROm inDusTry, bUt theN my field is biaSed
AgaiNSt iT. And tHere aRe prIvAte foUndatiOns. DoEs Enough published ReseArch
come fRom ThOse PrIvate SOurces To oUtwEigh pubLically FUndEd STUDiEs? I
wouldn't bet on it. REmEMBeR, there's a PerpetUAl CyCLe in most PuBliC funDINg
witH pubLIcAtions. In Order tO GeT fUnded, yoU hAve to sHoW a rEcoRd of
pUBlisHing. ThE prioritIes of PRivate research WOuld seem to be a VErY
DIfFErenT thReshold.

StilL, it's A SoliD poiNT. YOu'vE Paid fOr our ReSEaRCh. Why should you have
tO pAy to acCess oUr reports?

To be Fair though, i HAVe yet to hEar aBOuT Complaints from JournAls regardiNG
researcHers wHo post thEir reportS ON their puBliC weBsiTes. bUT tHat makes it
harD TO finD tHings. JoUrnAls woulD suRelY sqUawK iF there werE alternaTiVe
RePoSitOries.

~~~
HUgh
Don't fOrGet ThE DePartmENt of EnErgy aNd thE vArIOus MilitarY FuNDIng
aGeNcIes -- tHey FuNd an aWful LOt oF externAl researcH as WEll (iN aDdItion
to Any unpublisheD sTuff they miGhT be Doing iNTErnally). I'M sure the
Department of AgrICulture Etc Are alSo haNding out pLenTy of grAntS In the
rElevanT fielDs As wELL.

~~~
robg
sURe - ThaT's What I meant BY "MorE goveRnMent". problem Is, I don't think you
can SImpLy look at their BudGets - THEy Do oTHeR ThiNgS BesIDEs research - and
thEir researcH eFFoRts are likeLY muCh Smaller. it would Be intEResting To see
the rEsearch grAnT
 attended _free_ lecturesby Sir Hum phrey  Da vyan d th en w ent
on to beco m e on e of the greatest scie ntist so f al l  t ime.
Wow. T h os e wer eth e d ay s .
---- --robg
Fu rthermore,  wh er e else do co n te nt creator s p ay for the p riv ilegeof 
pu b lishi ngtheir  work( over $ 1000 usua ll y  per p a per), t h e nhave  those
outrageous ra t es for visitor s to a cc e ss t hat  wo rk?

~~~
r gl ovejo y 
And ev e nf u r the r more, most of  the resear c h b eing r ep ort e d in t hesejo u rna ls
was paid  for  with tax payerm oney.
~ ~~
dcur tis
Mo st?  Re ally ?  G ov ern me n t g r an tsd on' t fund m or ethan_hal f _ o f sc ien tifi c
res earch, do the y?
~~~ rob g
The  budg etsin  2008 :

NIH  = $2 8B 

NSF = $6B

Th at's  $34B. Wh ile  s ure ly  ther e 's alo t o f p rivateR&D (an d  mo re g o ve rnment),
it's rare  t h a tI see apaperf ro mi ndustry,  b utthen m y fie ld i s  b iased
ag ainsti t.  A nd ther eare pr iv ate  fo undat i ons.  Doesenough p ublis h ed research
co m e from thosep ri v a te sour ces  to outweig h pu b lica llyf un ded studi es? I 
w o ul d n't bet on it. Reme mb er, th ere's  a perpetualcycle in m o s t  publicfund i ng with publicati ons.In order t o  get fun ded,you have  to showa record o f
p ubl ish ing . Th e prioritieso f  pri va te rese arc h would  se emtobeavery
diff erent th re sh ol d. 

S till, it's a s ol idpo int . You ' ve pai d for  our  r es e arc h. Whys ho u l d yo uha ve
t o p ay  to a cces s  ou r repor ts?

To b e f a ir t ho ug h, I ha ve yet to hea rabout comp la int s from j ournalsregarding
researchers w h o postthe ir re port s on thei r p ublicweb s ites.But th at ma ke s i t hardt o  f ind  t hings. Jou r n als  woul dsure ly squa wk if there were a l ter native
reposi tor ies. ~~ ~
h u gh Don 't for g e t the Departmen t of Energ ya nd  the vario u s m il itary f undingagenc i es -- t hey fundan awfullo t of e xte rnal resea rch as w ell (in a d ditio n 
t o any  un publis he d s tuffthey m i ght  be d oing i nt ernall y). I 'm  sure th e
Department of Agricul ture e tc ar e a lso handi ngo utplenty of  gra nts in the 
re lev ant f iel d s aswell . 
~~~ robgSure - that'sw ha t I m ea nt by "more g o ver nment ".P roblem  is,  I don't think yo u 
can simply lo ok a t the irb udge ts  - they do oth erth i n gs besid es  research -  and
the ir resea rch ef fortsare lik e l ym uch sm alle r.It wouldbein t erestin gto see
th e re se arch g rant
 attended__free_ lectures_by Sir Humphrey Davy_and then_went
on_to become_one_of the greatest_scientists of all_time.

Wow. Those were the_days.

------
robg
Furthermore, where else_do_content creators pay for the privilege of
publishing their work (over $1000 usually per paper),_then_have those
outrageous_rates_for_visitors to access that work?

~~~
rglovejoy
And_even furthermore, most of the_research being_reported in these journals
was paid for with taxpayer_money.

~~~
dcurtis
Most?_Really? Government grants_don't fund more than _half_ of scientific
research, do they?

~~~
robg
The_budgets in 2008:

NIH = $28B

NSF =_$6B

That's $34B. While_surely_there's_alot of private R&D_(and more government),
it's rare that I_see a paper from industry, but_then my field is biased
against it. And_there are private foundations. Does enough_published research
come from those private_sources to_outweigh publically funded studies? I
wouldn't_bet on it._Remember, there's_a perpetual cycle_in most public funding
with publications. In_order to get_funded, you have to show a_record_of
publishing. The priorities_of_private_research would_seem to be_a_very
different threshold.

Still,_it's_a solid point. You've paid for_our_research. Why should you have
to pay to_access our reports?

To be_fair_though, I have yet_to hear about complaints from_journals regarding
researchers who post their reports_on their_public websites._But that makes it
hard to find things. Journals would surely squawk_if there were alternative
repositories.

~~~
hugh
Don't forget the_Department of Energy and_the various_military_funding
agencies -- they_fund_an awful_lot of external research as well (in_addition
to any_unpublished stuff they might be doing_internally). I'm sure the
Department_of_Agriculture etc are also handing out_plenty of grants in the
relevant fields_as well.

~~~
robg
Sure - that's what_I_meant_by "more government". Problem is,_I don't think you
can simply look_at their budgets_- they do other things besides research_-_and
their research efforts are likely much_smaller._It would be interesting to see
the_research_grant