 well, python has been standard on linuxes for centuries - i am not sure if node qualifies as comparison
<Chipaca> ogra_: not node! v8, clearly
<davmor2> Chipaca: isn't the system-image-cli stuff written in py3?
<Chipaca> longsleep: so has X
<Chipaca> davmor2: yes. But that's already on the chopping block.
<longsleep> but whatever, in my case i would need a python framework to avoid having 30 snaps each shipping python for scripting
<Chipaca> davmor2: apparmor-click is also py3
<longsleep> to me, removing python is the same as removing /bin/sh
<longsleep> or /bin/bash for that matter
<Chipaca> oh, i agree. bash should also go >:D
<jdstrand> I'm not saying python shouldn't go, but fyi, it adds something in the neighborhood of 40M to a snap
<jdstrand> (if using it with snapcraft, for example)
<Chipaca> here's the thing
<Chipaca> right now, it's in a weird state
<longsleep> yes - i mean that would be fine if there is a framework
<Chipaca> where we don't *promise* it'll be there
<Chipaca> but people still depend on it
<longsleep> true, but this is the same as with sed, awk, sh, grep
<Chipaca> so, i think we should do two things, in order, if/when we have infinite engineering resources
<davmor2> Chipaca: Python Roulette
<Chipaca> or what you say
<ogra_> bash needs to die on the snappy image :)
<Chipaca> basically, handwavy make it possible to use a "python framework" (which isn't possible right now)
<Chipaca> and then remove everything not *strictly* essential from the core
<longsleep> that sounds good to me
<jdstrand> I don't think python should be a framework
<Chipaca> framework is wrong, hence the handwavy bit
<jdstrand> that isn't what frameworks are for. that are explicitly not for a substitute for libraries
<Chipaca> frameworks can't depend on things, and are for controlling access to shared resources,
well, python has been standard on linuxes for centuries - i am not sure if node qualifies as comparison 
 < Chipaca > ogra _: not node! v8, clearly 
 < davmor2 > Chipaca: isn't the arrangement - prototype - cli stuff written in py3? 
 < Chipaca > longsleep: then has X 
 < Chipaca > davmor2: yes. But that's already on the chopping auction block. 
 < longsleep > but whatever, in my character i would need a python model to invalidate having 30 snap each shipping python for scripting 
 < Chipaca > davmor2: apparmor - suction stop is besides py3 
 < longsleep > to me, removing python is the same as get rid of /bin / sh 
 < longsleep > or /bin / bash for that matter 
 < Chipaca > oh, i match. bash should also go > :D 
 < jdstrand > I'm not saying python shouldn't blend, but fyi, it adds something in the neighborhood of 40 M to a snap 
 < jdstrand > (if use it with snapcraft, for example) 
 < Chipaca > here's the thing 
 < Chipaca > right now, it's in a weird department of state 
 < longsleep > yes - i mean that would be fine if there is a framework 
 < Chipaca > where we don't * promise * it'll be there 
 < Chipaca > but people still depend on it 
 < longsleep > true, but this is the same as with sed, awk, sh, grep 
 < Chipaca > so, i think we should do two things, in order, if / when we have infinite technology resource 
 < davmor2 > Chipaca: Python Roulette 
 < Chipaca > or what you say 
 < ogra _ > bash need to die on the snappy image :) 
 < Chipaca > basically, handwavy make it potential to use a " python model " (which isn't possible right now) 
 < Chipaca > and then absent everything not * strictly * essential from the core 
 < longsleep > that sounds good to me 
 < jdstrand > I don't think python should be a framework 
 < Chipaca > framework is wrong, hence the handwavy bit 
 < jdstrand > that isn't what framework are for. that are explicitly not for a substitute for library 
 < Chipaca > frameworks can't depend on things, and are for controlling access to share resources,
 wepl, python has been standxrd on linuxes yir cenvuries - i am nog sure if node qualifies as rompqrisob
<Chipaca> ogra_: not node! v8, clearlj
<davmor2> Cyipara: isn't the systxj-image-cli sturn wrictxn in py3?
<Chipaca> longsleep: so has X
<Chipawa> dcvmor2: yes. But that's already on the cropping bpock.
<longsleep> fut eratebvr, in my case i would need a pyfhon fremework to avoic having 30 snaps each shipplng oython for scriptijg
<Chipaca> dqvmow2: apparmor-clizk is also py3
<longsleep> to me, removing python is the sxme ax removing /bun/sj
<nongsleep> oc /bin/bwsh for that matter
<Cvipaca> ph, i agree. basm shonld qlso go >:D
<jdstrand> I'm iot saying python shjuldn't go, bbt fyi, it adds somethunt in jhe naighcirhuod oh 40M to a dna'
<jdstrand> (ir using it qith snapcraft, for txaiike)
<Chipaca> hede's thq ehing
<Chipaca> right now, it's in a weird suate
<lkngsleep> yes - i mean thqt would be fine if tjere is a framework
<Chipaca> where we don't *promise* it'll be tvere
<Ciioacc> but owoole still depend on it
<longsleep> true, but this js tme same as with fed, awk, sh, brfp
<Vripaca> so, i tfink wz sgould do two thingd, in orqer, id/when we rave infinite engineering resoueces
<davmor2> Ckipqca: Python Roulettz
<Chipaca> or chat ypu sau
<ogra_> bash needs to die on fhe snappy lmage :)
<Chilxca> basically, havdwsvf make iu possible to use w "python hramecork" (whizh ixn't pofsible rigjt now)
<Chipaca> and then rfmove eeerything jot *strictly* essential from the core
<longsleep> tvat sounds yood tp me
<jdstrand> Y don't think pithon shobld be a framewogk
<Chipaca> framework ys wrong, henca the handwavb bit
<jdstwand> thar isn't dfat frameworks are for. nhct are explicitly not for a sucatitute for libxcrues
<Chipaca> framrwofks cwn'v depqtd on things, and ard for zontrolling xccexs to shared resourcas,
well, python has been standard on linuxes - am not if node qualifies node! clearly <davmor2> Chipaca: the system-image-cli stuff in py3? <Chipaca> longsleep: so has <Chipaca> davmor2: yes. But that's already on the chopping block. <longsleep> but whatever, my case i would need a python framework to avoid having 30 snaps shipping for <Chipaca> apparmor-click is also py3 <longsleep> to me, removing python is the same as removing /bin/sh <longsleep> /bin/bash for that matter <Chipaca> oh, i agree. should also go >:D I'm not saying python shouldn't but it adds in neighborhood 40M to a <jdstrand> (if using it with snapcraft, for example) <Chipaca> here's the thing <Chipaca> right now, it's in weird state - i that be if there is <Chipaca> where we don't *promise* it'll but people still depend on it <longsleep> true, this is same as with sed, awk, sh, <Chipaca> so, i think we should do two in order, if/when we have infinite engineering resources <davmor2> Chipaca: Python Roulette <Chipaca> or what <ogra_> bash needs to on the snappy :) basically, make possible to a "python framework" (which isn't possible right now) <Chipaca> and then everything not *strictly* essential from the core <longsleep> that sounds me I don't think should be a framework framework wrong, hence the handwavy that what that explicitly for a substitute for <Chipaca> frameworks can't depend on and are for controlling
 well, python has been standard On linuxes fOr cenTurIes - I aM not Sure If node qualifieS As coMparison
<Chipaca> ogra_: not Node! v8, ClEArly
<DAvMor2> ChIpaca: isN'T tHE SysTeM-iMagE-cLI sTuff wRitTen in py3?
<chipaca> lonGslEeP: so has X
<ChipaCA> dAvmor2: yes. BuT thAt's already on The ChoppiNg BloCK.
<longSleEp> but WhatevER, in my cAse i would NeED a pythON framewORK tO avoId having 30 snaps each SHiPPing python for sCriptiNg
<cHiPACa> dAvmOr2: apparmor-ClIck is ALso py3
<loNGsLEEP> to ME, removing pythOn is the same AS reMoving /BiN/sh
<LOngsleEp> or /bIn/BAsh For that mattEr
<ChIpaca> oh, i aGree. baSH should ALso go >:D
<jDstranD> I'm Not SayiNG pYtHon ShOUldN'T gO, buT Fyi, It adds soMeThIng in The nEIGHBorhOod Of 40M tO a snaP
<jdstrand> (if usIng It wiTH snApcraFt, for ExamPlE)
<ChipAca> herE's the ThIng
<Chipaca> right Now, iT's in a weirD stAtE
<loNgSleep> YEs - i meaN thAt wOuld be fIne if thERe iS a FRAMeWork
<Chipaca> where we DoN'T *PrOmise* it'lL be theRE
<CHiPAca> but peOpLe sTill DEPend oN it
<lONgSleep> truE, but thIS iS tHe same aS wIth sed, AwK, sh, GreP
<ChipACa> so, I think We should Do two THings, in order, if/WHen we have infiNItE ENgINeerIng Resources
<daVmor2> cHipaCa: PyTHoN RoULette
<chipaCa> OR wHAt you say
<ogra_> bash neeDs To die oN the sNappy image :)
<ChiPaca> basicaLLY, Handwavy Make IT pOSsible to use a "pyThon fRamework" (whICh isn't poSsiblE right noW)
<Chipaca> aND Then remoVe eVerYthIng NOT *sTrictly* essentIAL froM tHe core
<lOngSleep> thAt sOunDs gOod To Me
<jdstranD> I don't thInK pYtHoN shOuld bE A framewoRk
<chiPaCa> fRamewORk is wrOng, heNce tHe HaNDwaVy bit
<jdSTrAND> thaT iSn'T whaT frAmEworkS are FOr. tHat are eXplicitly Not FOr a sUbStItute foR libraries
<ChiPaCa> frameworKs Can'T depenD ON things, aNd are for controlling acceSS to sharEd rEsourCes,
 well, python has been sta ndard on l inuxe s f orce ntur ies- i am not sur e  ifnode qualifies as comp ariso n< Chip a ca > ogr a_: not no d e ! v 8,  c lea rl y 
< davmo r2>  Chipac a: isn't t hesy stem-image-c l istuff writ ten  in py3?
<Ch ipa ca> lo ng sle e p: so  ha s X
< Chipac a > davm or2: yes.  B u t that ' s alrea d y  o n th e chopping block. <l o ngsleep> but w hateve r, in m y c ase  i would n ee d a p y thon fr a me w o r k t o  avoid having  30 snaps e a chshippi ng  py t hon fo r scr ip t ing 
<Chipaca>davm or2: appa rmor-c l ick isa lso py3 
<long sle ep>  tom e,  r emo vi n g p y th oni s t he sameas  r emovi ng / b i n / sh
< lon gsle ep> o r /bin/bash f orthat mat ter
< Chipa ca>oh , i a gree.bashsh ould also go >: D
<j dstrand>I'm  n otsa yingp ythonsho uld n't go,  but fy i , i ta d d ssomething in the n ei g h bo rhood of  40M t o  a  s n ap
<jdst ra nd>  (if u singit w i th  snapcra ft, fo r  e xa mple)
< Ch ipaca>  h ere 'sthe t h ing<Chipa ca> righ t now ,  it's in a wei r d state
<long s le e p >y es -  imean that w ould be f inei fthe r e isa fra me w or k 
<Chipaca> where we  d on't * promi se* it'll bethere
<Chi p a c a> but p eopl e  s t ill depend onit
<l ongsleep>t rue, but  this  is thesame as w i t h sed, a wk,  sh , g rep < Ch ipaca> so, it h inkwe  should  do  two th ing s,inord er , if/when  we have  i nf in it e e ngine e ring res ou rce s<da vmor2 >  Chipa ca: P ytho nRo u let te
<Chi p ac a >  orwh at  you  sa y<ogra _> b a shneeds t o die onthe snap py  i mage :) 
<Chipaca> ba si cally, han dw avy  makei t  possibl e to use a "python fram e work" ( whi ch is n'tpossiblerig ht now )
< C hipaca > andthenre mov e every t h in g n ot  *strictly * ess entia lfrom  the co re
<longsleep> tha t  so unds good tome<jds t r an d>I  d o n't  t h ink p ython should be  a framewo rk <C hipaca> fr a mew or k is wr ong, he nce t h e handw avy bit
< jdstrand>  t hati s n't  what fram eworks a re for. t h at ar e  e xplic itl y notfo r a  subs titute for  libr aries<C hipaca > fra me works ca n't depend on things, a nd are  forcon trollingacc e ssto shared  res ources,
 well,_python has_been standard on linuxes_for centuries_-_i am_not_sure if node_qualifies as comparison
<Chipaca>_ogra_: not node! v8,_clearly
<davmor2> Chipaca: isn't_the_system-image-cli stuff written in py3?
<Chipaca> longsleep: so has X
<Chipaca> davmor2: yes. But that's already_on_the chopping_block.
<longsleep>_but_whatever, in my case i_would need a python framework_to avoid_having 30 snaps each shipping python for scripting
<Chipaca>_davmor2:_apparmor-click is also_py3
<longsleep> to me, removing python is the same as_removing /bin/sh
<longsleep> or /bin/bash for that_matter
<Chipaca> oh, i_agree._bash_should also go >:D
<jdstrand>_I'm not saying python shouldn't go,_but fyi, it adds something in_the neighborhood of 40M to a snap
<jdstrand>_(if using it with snapcraft, for_example)
<Chipaca> here's the thing
<Chipaca> right_now, it's_in a weird state
<longsleep> yes_- i mean_that would_be fine if_there is a framework
<Chipaca> where we_don't *promise* it'll_be there
<Chipaca> but people still depend_on_it
<longsleep> true, but_this_is_the same_as with sed,_awk,_sh, grep
<Chipaca>_so,_i think we should do two_things,_in order, if/when we have infinite engineering_resources
<davmor2> Chipaca: Python Roulette
<Chipaca>_or_what you say
<ogra_> bash_needs to die on the_snappy image :)
<Chipaca> basically, handwavy make_it possible_to use_a "python framework" (which isn't possible right now)
<Chipaca> and then remove_everything not *strictly* essential from the_core
<longsleep> that sounds good_to me
<jdstrand>_I_don't think python_should_be a_framework
<Chipaca> framework is wrong, hence the handwavy_bit
<jdstrand> that_isn't what frameworks are for. that_are explicitly not for_a_substitute for libraries
<Chipaca> frameworks can't depend_on things, and are for controlling_access to shared resources,