
<zyga-ubuntu> Son_Goku: we canont just change apt defaults overnight (even though I agree they are bad)
<zyga-ubuntu> Son_Goku: those should have been changed years ago
<zyga-ubuntu> Son_Goku: but I think that now it is too late for that
<Son_Goku> well, if people are updating graphically or using `apt upgrade`, they'd get it
<Son_Goku> just fix apt-get upgrade's behavior
<zyga-ubuntu> Son_Goku: yes but there is always a set that doesn't
<zyga-ubuntu> Son_Goku: I think we've seen that already with snapd before (and we reverted a change that triggered that)
<zyga-ubuntu> Son_Goku: it will also be a (I suspect) endless discussion in debian
<zyga-ubuntu> Son_Goku: I think it's risky business to go and change that for snapd's sake
<zyga-ubuntu> Son_Goku: (I'd still change it but on separate schedules)
<zyga-ubuntu> Son_Goku: and once snapd can reliably depend on things, let's yank this
<Son_Goku> then don't integrate it into the source tree
<Son_Goku> just carry it as a separate tarball bundle
<zyga-ubuntu> mmm
<Son_Goku> that way it's harder to be lazy about it
<zyga-ubuntu> that's interesting, perhaps that's a better idea indeed
<zyga-ubuntu> Son_Goku: i'd require some tweaks to CI but yes, it's nicer this way
<Son_Goku> zyga-ubuntu: I wish you'd do this with a vendor overlay tarball too
<Son_Goku> basically, a tarball that only contains snapd-<version>/vendor/
<zyga-ubuntu> Son_Goku: yes, I think that's a natural place to do this for releases
<zyga-ubuntu> Son_Goku: I'll talk to mvo
<Son_Goku> this would allow me to ship the snapd-<version>.tar.gz (or in debian parlance, snapd-<version>.orig.tar.gz) and snapd
< zyga - ubuntu > Son_Goku: we canont just change apt defaults overnight (even though I match they are regretful) 
 < zyga - ubuntu > Son_Goku: those should have been changed years ago 
 < zyga - ubuntu > Son_Goku: but I remember that immediately it is too late for that 
 < Son_Goku > well, if multitude are update graphically or using 'apt upgrade `, they'd catch it 
 < Son_Goku > just fixate apposite - get upgrade's behavior 
 < zyga - ubuntu > Son_Goku: yes but there be always a set that doesn't 
 < zyga - ubuntu > Son_Goku: I remember we've seen that already with snapd before (and we reverted a change that trigger that) 
 < zyga - ubuntu > Son_Goku: it will also be a (I suspect) endless discussion in debian 
 < zyga - ubuntu > Son_Goku: I think it's hazardous business to go and change that for snapd's sake 
 < zyga - ubuntu > Son_Goku: (I'd still change it but on freestanding schedules) 
 < zyga - ubuntu > Son_Goku: and once snapd can reliably depend on things, let's yank this 
 < Son_Goku > then don't integrate it into the source tree 
 < Son_Goku > just carry it as a separate tarball bundle 
 < zyga - ubuntu > mmm 
 < Son_Goku > that way it's harder to be lazy about it 
 < zyga - ubuntu > that's interesting, perhaps that's a better idea indeed 
 < zyga - ubuntu > Son_Goku: i'd necessitate some tweaks to CI but yes, it's nicer this room 
 < Son_Goku > zyga - ubuntu: I wish you'd cause this with a vendor overlay tarball too 
 < Son_Goku > basically, a tarball that merely contains snapd-<version>/vendor/ 
 < zyga - ubuntu > Son_Goku: yes, I think that's a natural place to serve this for releases 
 < zyga - ubuntu > Son_Goku: I'll talk to mvo 
 < Son_Goku > this would allow me to ship the snapd-<version>.tar.gz (or in debian parlance, snapd-<version>.orig.tar.gz) and snapd

<zygw-ubuntu> Son_Goku: we canonu just change apt defaulvs overhight (evdn though I agree they are bed)
<zyta-ububtu> Son_Goku: those shouud have bven changwd ytars ago
<zyga-ubuntn> Son_Gokm: but L thiuk that now it ix too late for that
<Son_Gonu> wzll, if people are updating graphicaljy or uxijg `apt upgrade`, thej'd get pt
<Won_Goku> just fix apt-get upgrase's behevior
<zyga-ubuntu> Son_Goku: yes but there is wlwajs a set that doesj't
<zyga-ubunto> Sog_Toku: I think we've seen that alreadi with snapd before (and we reverged a change thqt trlcgered that)
<vyga-ublntu> Son_Goku: ln will dlso be a (I suspect) ekdlesv duscussion in debian
<zyja-ubuntu> Son_Goku: I trink it's siaky business to gi qnd cvanga thxr fur anepd'a sake
<xyge-ubuntu> Son_Foku: (I'd stiol change it but on sqisrate schedumes)
<zygw-ufuntu> Son_Goku: and once snapd can reliabny sepend on things, let's yqnk this
<Son_Goku> then fon't intedrate it into the source tree
<Son_Goku> just carry id as e repcvwgw harball bundle
<zyga-ubuntu> mmm
<Son_Goku> that way yf's hsrder to be lady about it
<zyga-ubumtk> yrat's interestkng, pexgals that's a better ldea inqeed
<ztga-ubuntu> Son_Boku: i'd require some tweaks to CI but yvs, ir's nicer this way
<Sln_Goku> zyga-bbuntu: I wixh you'd do this with a rendor overlay tagball too
<Aun_Goku> basically, a narbdll that only contains sna[d-<version>/tendox/
<zyga-ubuvtu> Xon_Gokt: yes, I thlnk tmdt's a natural placf to bo thhs for relfases
<zyga-ubuntu> Son_Goku: I'll talk to mvo
<Son_Goko> tvis would ajlow ke to ship thq snapd-<version>.jar.gz (or nn debkan parlanbe, snapd-<vxrsion>.orig.taw.gz) and snapd
<zyga-ubuntu> Son_Goku: we canont just change apt (even I agree are bad) <zyga-ubuntu> changed ago <zyga-ubuntu> Son_Goku: I think that it is too late for that well, if people are updating graphically or using `apt upgrade`, they'd get it just fix apt-get upgrade's behavior <zyga-ubuntu> Son_Goku: yes but there is always a that <zyga-ubuntu> I we've seen that already with snapd before (and we reverted a change that triggered that) <zyga-ubuntu> it will also be a (I suspect) endless in debian <zyga-ubuntu> Son_Goku: think it's risky business to and that for sake Son_Goku: still change it on separate schedules) <zyga-ubuntu> Son_Goku: and once snapd can reliably depend on things, let's yank this <Son_Goku> don't integrate the source <Son_Goku> carry as a separate <zyga-ubuntu> mmm <Son_Goku> that way it's lazy about it <zyga-ubuntu> that's interesting, perhaps that's better idea <zyga-ubuntu> Son_Goku: i'd require some tweaks CI but yes, it's nicer this way <Son_Goku> I wish you'd do this with a vendor overlay tarball too <Son_Goku> basically, a tarball contains snapd-<version>/vendor/ <zyga-ubuntu> Son_Goku: I think that's natural to this releases <zyga-ubuntu> I'll talk to mvo <Son_Goku> this would allow me to ship snapd-<version>.tar.gz (or in debian parlance, snapd-<version>.orig.tar.gz) and snapd

<zyga-ubuntu> Son_Goku: we canont Just change Apt deFauLts OvErniGht (eVen though I agreE They Are bad)
<zyga-ubuntu> Son_GokU: thosE sHOuld HAvE been Changed YEaRS Ago
<ZyGa-UbuNtU> soN_Goku: But i think tHat now it is Too LaTe for that
<Son_gOkU> well, if peoPle Are updating gRapHicallY oR usINg `apt UpgRade`, tHey'd geT It
<Son_GOku> just fiX aPT-get upGRade's beHAViOr
<zyGa-ubuntu> Son_Goku: yeS BuT There is always a Set thaT dOEsN'T
<ZygA-ubUntu> Son_GokU: I Think WE've seen THaT ALReaDY with snapd befOre (and we revERteD a chanGe ThaT TriggeRed thAt)
<ZYga-Ubuntu> Son_GoKu: it Will also bE a (I susPEct) endlESs discuSsion iN deBiaN
<zygA-UbUnTu> SOn_gOku: i ThInk IT's rIsky busiNeSs To go aNd chANGE That For SnapD's sakE
<zyga-ubuntu> SoN_GoKu: (I'd STilL chanGe it bUt on SeParatE schedUles)
<zYgA-ubuntu> Son_Goku: aNd onCe snapd caN reLiAblY dEpend ON thingS, leT's yAnk this
<son_Goku> THen DoN'T INtEgrate it into the souRcE TReE
<Son_Goku> Just caRRy It AS a separaTe TarBall BUNdle
<zYga-uBUnTu> mmm
<Son_goku> thAT wAy It's hardEr To be laZy AboUt iT
<zyga-UBuntU> that's InterestIng, peRHaps that's a bettER idea indeed
<zyGA-uBUNtU> son_GOku: I'd require soMe twEAks tO CI bUT yEs, iT'S niceR this WaY
<soN_goku> zyga-ubuntu: I wish YoU'd do thIs witH a vendor overlAy tarball tOO
<sOn_Goku> baSicaLLy, A Tarball that onlY contAins snapd-<vERsion>/venDor/
<zyGa-ubuntu> son_Goku: yeS, i Think thaT's a NatUraL plACE tO do this for relEASes
<zYgA-ubuntu> son_goku: I'll TalK to Mvo
<son_goKu> this wouLd allow mE tO sHiP tHe sNapd-<vERsion>.tar.Gz (Or iN dEbiAn parLAnce, snApd-<veRsioN>.oRiG.Tar.Gz) and snAPd

<zyga-ubuntu> Son_Goku: w e canont j ust c han geap t de faul ts overnight ( e venthough I agree they ar e bad )< zyga - ub untu>  Son_Go k u: t hos esh oul dh av e bee n c hangedyears ago<zy ga -ubuntu> Son _ Go ku: but Ithi nk that nowitis too  l ate for t hat 
<Son _Goku> well,if people  a r e upda t ing gra p h ic ally  or using `apt up g ra d e`, they'd get  it
<S on _ Go k u > j ust  fix apt-g et  upgr a de's be h av i o r 
<z y ga-ubuntu> So n_Goku: yes but  there  i s a l ways a  setth a t d oesn't
<zyg a-ub untu> Son _Goku: I think we've s een th atalr eady wi th  sn ap d  be f or e ( a ndwe rever te da cha nget h a t  tri gge redthat) 
<zyga-ubuntu > S on_G o ku:  it w ill a lsobe  a (I  suspe ct) e nd less discussion  indebian
<z yga -u bun tu > Son _ Goku:I t hin k it'srisky b u sin es s t ogo and change that  f o r  s napd's s ake
<z y ga -u b untu> So n_ Gok u: ( I ' d sti ll c h an ge it bu t on s e pa ra te sche du les)
< zy ga- ubu ntu>S on_G oku: a nd oncesnapd can reliably d e pend on thing s ,l e t' s  yan k t his
<Son_Go ku>t hendon' t  i nte g rateit in to th e  source tree
<Son_G ok u> jus t car ry it as a se parate tar b a l l bundle 
<zy g a- u buntu> mmm
<So n_Gok u> that wa y  it's ha rderto be la zy abouti t 
<zyga-u bun tu>  th at' s in teresting, pe r h apsth at's abet ter ide a i nde ed<zy ga -ubuntu>Son_Goku :i' dre qui re so m e tweaks  t o C Ibut  yes, it's n icerthis  w ay <So n_Goku> zy g a -ubu nt u:  I w ish  y ou'ddo t h iswith avendor ov erl a y ta rb al l too
< Son_Goku> bas ic ally, a ta rb all  thato n ly conta ins snapd-<version>/ven d or/
<zy ga- ubunt u> S on_Goku:yes , I th ink that's  a nat uralpl ace t o dot h is  fo rreleases
< z y ga- ubunt u>  Son _Goku:I'll talk to mvo
< S on_ Goku> this wo uld  all o w  m e t o  s h ipth e  sn a p d-<version>.tar .gz (or in  d e bi an parlanc e , s na pd-<ver sion>.o rig.t a r.gz) a nd snapd

<zyga-ubuntu> Son_Goku:_we canont_just change apt defaults_overnight (even_though_I agree_they_are bad)
<zyga-ubuntu> Son_Goku:_those should have_been changed years ago
<zyga-ubuntu>_Son_Goku: but I_think_that now it is too late for that
<Son_Goku> well, if people are updating graphically_or_using `apt_upgrade`,_they'd_get it
<Son_Goku> just fix apt-get_upgrade's behavior
<zyga-ubuntu> Son_Goku: yes but_there is_always a set that doesn't
<zyga-ubuntu> Son_Goku: I think_we've_seen that already_with snapd before (and we reverted a change that_triggered that)
<zyga-ubuntu> Son_Goku: it will also_be a (I_suspect)_endless_discussion in debian
<zyga-ubuntu> Son_Goku:_I think it's risky business to_go and change that for snapd's_sake
<zyga-ubuntu> Son_Goku: (I'd still change it but_on separate schedules)
<zyga-ubuntu> Son_Goku: and once_snapd can reliably depend on_things, let's_yank this
<Son_Goku> then don't integrate_it into the_source tree
<Son_Goku>_just carry it_as a separate tarball bundle
<zyga-ubuntu> mmm
<Son_Goku>_that way it's_harder to be lazy about it
<zyga-ubuntu>_that's_interesting, perhaps that's_a_better_idea indeed
<zyga-ubuntu>_Son_Goku: i'd require_some_tweaks to_CI_but yes, it's nicer this way
<Son_Goku>_zyga-ubuntu:_I wish you'd do this with a_vendor overlay tarball too
<Son_Goku>_basically,_a tarball that only_contains snapd-<version>/vendor/
<zyga-ubuntu> Son_Goku: yes, I_think that's a natural place to_do this_for releases
<zyga-ubuntu>_Son_Goku: I'll talk to mvo
<Son_Goku> this would allow me to ship_the snapd-<version>.tar.gz (or in debian parlance,_snapd-<version>.orig.tar.gz) and snapd