 in software development as we know it
<penguin42> ali1234: I think it's harder with things like Java, but they still seem to find ways to crash with Null pointer checks
<ali1234> managed code does help but it doesn't stop people making bad APIs
<penguin42> ali1234: It feels like what you're asking for is actually impossible
<penguin42> it kind of feels like it's wandering into a halting problem like thing
<ali1234> ban loops
<penguin42> good idea
<ali1234> but yeah, that's why i said it's a fundamental problem
<penguin42> ali1234: There are languages where dynamic allocation is banned but then they're frankly useless
<ali1234> it's not like i have a solution
 * penguin42 has worked on some static analysis tools - they're good for some stuff
<popey> we use coverity on some projects
<penguin42> yeh I've seen some coverity scans - quite neat
<penguin42> popey: But ali1234 has a good point; forcing people to watch the warning output of gnome apps would be a good thing!
<ali1234> a big problem with those warnings is they are so unspecific
<ali1234> could it throw an exception, launch gdb, and show me a backtrace?
<penguin42> ali1234: You can nail a debugger on them and find what's going on; compare them to python or java errors where you get a page of splurge and then have to figure out whether you care or not
<ali1234> otherwise i have no idea where the problem i
<penguin42> yeh I don't think it's hard to attach a debugger to them
<ali1234> python errors are excellent. full backtrace every time. what vould be better than that?
<penguin42> ali1234: Bit of a pain for warnings; again something switchable so you can see it when you're prepared to takethe time to debug it would be good
<ali1234> catch it, or the program crashes
<ali1234> oh great, i love it when apport says my packages are out of date even though the new ones aren't available on any mirror.
<popey> which mirror?
<solarcloud_3srcn
in software development as we know it 
 < penguin42 > ali1234: I think it's harder with thing like Java, but they however seem to find ways to doss with Null pointer checks 
 < ali1234 > oversee code does serve but it doesn't stop people making bad APIs 
 < penguin42 > ali1234: It feel like what you're asking for is actually impossible 
 < penguin42 > it kind of feels like it's wander into a halting problem like thing 
 < ali1234 > ban loops 
 < penguin42 > good idea 
 < ali1234 > but yeah, that's why i said it's a cardinal problem 
 < penguin42 > ali1234: There are languages where active allocation is banned but then they're frankly useless 
 < ali1234 > it's not like i have a solution 
  * penguin42 has worked on some inactive analysis tools - they're good for some stuff 
 < popey > we use coverity on some undertaking 
 < penguin42 > yeh I've seen some coverity scans - quite neat 
 < penguin42 > popey: But ali1234 has a good point; forcing people to watch the warning output of gnome apps would be a good thing! 
 < ali1234 > a big problem with those warnings is they are so broad 
 < ali1234 > could it shed an exception, launch gdb, and usher me a backtrace? 
 < penguin42 > ali1234: You can nail a debugger on them and find what's going on; compare them to python or java errors where you have a page of splurge and then have to figure out whether you care or not 
 < ali1234 > differently i have no idea where the problem i 
 < penguin42 > yeh I don't think it's hard to attach a debugger to them 
 < ali1234 > python errors are excellent. full backtrace every time. what vould be better than that? 
 < penguin42 > ali1234: Bit of a pain for warning; again something switchable so you can see it when you're disposed to takethe meter to debug it would be good 
 < ali1234 > catch it, or the program crashes 
 < ali1234 > oh big, i love it when apport says my packages are out of date even though the newfangled ones aren't available on any mirror. 
 < popey > which mirror? 
 < solarcloud_3srcn
 in software development as we know it
<pengoib42> ali1234: M think it's haraer with things like Java, buv thwy stull seem to find ways go crash aith Nulo pomnter checks
<ali1234> managed gjde sles keop but it doesk't stop peo[le making bad AOId
<penguin42> ali1234: It feels like what you'we askimg for is actualjy ik[ossjble
<penguin42> it kind of feels like jt's wanvering into a hslting problem like thing
<api1234> bwn loops
<penguin42> gold idea
<ali1234> vut rwah, that's whh i said iu's a fundamehtal problem
<penguin42> ali1234: There afe lauguages whetz dyjdmic allocavion if banned but then thay're frsnkly useless
<aki1234> mt's bot like i have a solntion
 * penguin42 has wjrked on voje static analysiw rools - thay're tooa fkr skme stkff
<'opey> we uss coverity in some projects
<penbuyb42> yeh I've seeh some cjverity scans - quite neat
<penguin42> popey: Tut ali1234 has a good point; fircing people to watcj the warging output of gnome apps would be a good thing!
<alh1234> a bmg pribjdn aith those warnings is they are so unspecific
<wmi1234> cpuld it throw cn exception, laumcj bqb, and show mg a backtrzce?
<penguin42> ali1234: You can nayl a eebugger jn tnem and find what's going on; compare thei to python or java errors whexe you get s page of splurge and tken habe to figurf out wheffer you care or vot
<slh1234> otherwise i have no idea where thx proylem i
<pevguim42> yeh Y don't thijk it's hard to attach a febugyer tm them
<ali1234> oython errors are excellent. full backtrace evgry tike. what rould ne better than ehat?
<penguin42> aln1234: Bit of a pakn for warhings; ajain somethigg switchable do you can sxe it wheg yoy're preparea to takethe tike to deblg it qould be good
<ali1234> cetch jt, or the progrco crashes
<ali1234> oh brext, y pote it fhen apport vays my lackaees are out uf dste even though the tew knes aren't availabke on any nirror.
<po[ey> which mirtor?
<solarcloud_3srcn
in software development as we know it I it's harder things like Java, find to crash with pointer checks <ali1234> code does help but it doesn't people making bad APIs <penguin42> ali1234: It feels like what you're asking for actually impossible <penguin42> it kind of feels like it's wandering into a halting like <ali1234> loops good idea <ali1234> but yeah, that's why i said it's a fundamental problem <penguin42> ali1234: There languages where dynamic allocation is banned but then frankly useless <ali1234> it's like i have a solution penguin42 worked on static tools they're good for stuff <popey> we use coverity on some projects <penguin42> yeh I've seen some coverity scans - quite <penguin42> popey: has a point; people watch the warning gnome apps would be a good big problem with those warnings is they are unspecific <ali1234> it throw an exception, launch gdb, show me a backtrace? <penguin42> ali1234: You can a debugger on them and find what's going on; compare them to python or java you get a page splurge and then to out you or not otherwise i have no idea where the problem i <penguin42> yeh don't think it's hard to attach a debugger to them errors excellent. full backtrace time. what vould be than <penguin42> ali1234: Bit of for again you see when you're prepared to time to debug it would good <ali1234> catch it, oh great, i love it when apport says packages are out of date even though new ones aren't available on any mirror. <popey> which mirror? <solarcloud_3srcn
 in software development as we Know it
<pengUin42> alI1234: I tHinK iT's haRder With things like jAva, bUt they still seem to find wAys to CrASh wiTH NUll poInter chECkS
<ALi1234> mAnAgEd cOdE DoEs helP buT it doesN't stop peopLe mAkIng bad APIs
<peNGuIn42> ali1234: It feeLs lIke what you're AskIng for Is ActUAlly iMpoSsiblE
<penguIN42> it kinD of feels lIkE It's wanDEring inTO A hAltiNg problem like thinG
<AlI1234> Ban loops
<penguiN42> good iDeA
<AlI1234> BUt yEah, That's why i sAiD it's a FUndamenTAl PROBleM
<Penguin42> ali1234: TheRe are languaGEs wHere dyNaMic ALlocatIon is BaNNed But then they'Re frAnkly uselEss
<ali1234> IT's not liKE i have a SolutiOn
 * pEngUin42 hAS wOrKed On SOme STaTic ANalYsis toolS - tHeY're goOd foR SOME stuFf
<pOpey> We use Coverity on somE prOjecTS
<peNguin42> Yeh I'vE seeN sOme coVerity Scans - QuIte neat
<penguin42> pOpey: but ali1234 has A goOd PoiNt; ForciNG peoplE to WatCh the waRning ouTPut Of GNOMe Apps would be a good thInG!
<ALi1234> A big probLem witH ThOsE Warnings Is TheY are SO UnspeCifiC
<AlI1234> could it Throw aN ExCePtion, laUnCh gdb, aNd ShoW me A backTRace?
<PenguiN42> ali1234: You cAn naiL A debugger on theM And find what's gOInG ON; cOMparE thEm to python oR javA ErroRs whERe You GEt a paGe of sPlURgE And then have to figure OuT whethEr you Care or not
<ali1234> oTherwise i hAVE No idea whEre tHE pROblem i
<penguin42> yEh I doN't think it's HArd to attAch a dEbugger tO them
<ali1234> pYTHon errorS arE exCelLenT. FUlL backtrace eveRY Time. WhAt vould Be bEtter thAn tHat?
<PenGuiN42> aLi1234: Bit of a pAin for waRnInGs; AgAin SometHIng switcHaBle So You Can seE It when You're PrepArEd TO taKethe tiME tO DEbug It WoUld bE goOd
<Ali1234> caTch iT, Or tHe progrAm crashes
<Ali1234> OH greAt, I lOve it whEn apport says mY pAckages are OuT of Date evEN Though thE new ones aren't available oN Any mirrOr.
<pOpey> wHich Mirror?
<solArcLoud_3srCn
 in software development a s we knowit
<p eng uin 42 > al i123 4: I think it' s  har der with things like J ava,bu t  the y  s tillseem to fi n d  wa ys  t o c ra s hwithNul l point er checks<al i1 234> managed co de does he lpbut it doesn 'tstop p eo ple makin g b ad AP Is
<pe n guin42 > ali1234 :I t feel s  like w h a tyou' re asking for isa ct u ally impossibl e
<pen gu i n4 2 >  it  ki nd of feel slikei t's wan d er i n g  in t o a halting p roblem like thi ng
<al i1 234 >  ban l oops<p e ngu in42> goodidea 
<ali1234 > buty eah, th a t's why  i sai d i t's  a f u nd am ent al pro b le m
< p eng uin42> a li 12 34: T here a r e  lan gua geswhere  dynamic allo cat ioni s b anned  butthen  t hey'r e fran kly u se less
<ali1234>it's  not like  iha veasolut i on
 *pen gui n42 has  worked onso m e st atic analysis tool s- th ey're go od for so me stuff
<p op ey>  weu s e cov erit y  o n some p roject s 
< pe nguin42 >yeh I' ve  se ensomec over ity sc ans - qu ite n e at
<penguin42> popey: But al i 12 3 4  h a s agoo d point; fo rcin g  peo plet owat c h the  warn in g  o u tput of gnome appswo uld be  a go od thing!
<al i1234> a b i g problemwith th o se warnings is  they  are so un s pecific<ali1 234> cou ld it thr o w  an exce pti on,  la unc h gd b, and show m e a ba ck trace?<pe nguin42 > a li1 234 : Y ou  can nail  a debug ge ron  t hem  andf ind what 's  go in g o n; co m pare t hem t o py th on orjava er r or s wher eyo u ge t a  p age o f sp l urg e and t hen havetof igur eou t wheth er you care o rnot
<ali12 34 > o therwi s e  i haveno idea where the probl e m i
<pe ngu in42>  yeh  I don'tthi nk it' s h a rd toattach  a de bu gge r to th e m 
< ali 12 34> python e rro rs ar eexce llent.full backtrace eve r y t ime. what vou ldbe b e t te r t h an tha t? <pe n g uin42> ali1234:  Bit of apa i nfor warnin g s;ag ain som ethingswitc h able so  you cansee it wh en  you ' r e p repared to  takethe  time tod ebugi twould  be  good<a li1 234>catchi t,or th e prog ra m cras hes
< al i1234> o h great, i love it when  appor t say s m y package s a r e o ut of dat e ev en thoughthe  ne w one s a r en'tavai l ab leo n any  mir r or.
<pope y >whi c h  m irror?
<sol a r c lou d_3sr cn
 in_software development_as we know it
<penguin42>_ali1234: I_think_it's harder_with_things like Java,_but they still_seem to find ways_to crash with_Null_pointer checks
<ali1234> managed code does help but it doesn't stop people making bad APIs
<penguin42>_ali1234:_It feels_like_what_you're asking for is actually_impossible
<penguin42> it kind of feels_like it's_wandering into a halting problem like thing
<ali1234> ban_loops
<penguin42>_good idea
<ali1234> but_yeah, that's why i said it's a fundamental problem
<penguin42>_ali1234: There are languages where dynamic_allocation is banned_but_then_they're frankly useless
<ali1234> it's_not like i have a solution
_* penguin42 has worked on some_static analysis tools - they're good for_some stuff
<popey> we use coverity on_some projects
<penguin42> yeh I've seen_some coverity_scans - quite neat
<penguin42> popey:_But ali1234 has_a good_point; forcing people_to watch the warning output of_gnome apps would_be a good thing!
<ali1234> a big_problem_with those warnings_is_they_are so_unspecific
<ali1234> could it_throw_an exception,_launch_gdb, and show me a backtrace?
<penguin42>_ali1234:_You can nail a debugger on them_and find what's going_on;_compare them to python_or java errors where you_get a page of splurge and_then have_to figure_out whether you care or not
<ali1234> otherwise i have no idea_where the problem i
<penguin42> yeh I_don't think it's hard_to attach_a_debugger to them
<ali1234>_python_errors are_excellent. full backtrace every time. what vould_be better_than that?
<penguin42> ali1234: Bit of a_pain for warnings; again_something_switchable so you can see it_when you're prepared to takethe time_to debug it would be_good
<ali1234>_catch_it, or the program crashes
<ali1234>_oh great, i love it when_apport says my_packages are out of date even though_the_new ones aren't available on any_mirror.
<popey>_which mirror?
<solarcloud_3srcn