_> (guess what? we have a team. It's called MOTU.)
<crimsun_> sistpoty: yes
<sistpoty> well, what I'd like to ensure is that someone takes over responsibility both for working with/mentoring upstream and for saying upstream can upload on his own. a team usually does this less good than a single person, though I might be wrong there
<crimsun_> Now - the real question here is why should I bother fixing bugs that distro users have? Isn't it upstream's job? If I'm upstream, do I even care that there are distros? Why do distros exist?
<crimsun_> sistpoty: yes, I'm inclined to agree that one dedicated person often works better than a team.
<crimsun_> hence why single maintainers do make sense occasionally
<crimsun_> OTOH, there are _lots_ of upstreams and very few mentors
<sistpoty> right. I don't think the team idea is bad in itself, it just has its own problems we need to look after ;)
<crimsun_> When we think about it, the number of mentors is just a handful
<crimsun_> we can't really count on core-dev, and several of us straddle that, too
<sistpoty> crimsun_: I don't think that the "why should upstream fix distro bugs" is a problem imo. If I were upstream, I'd want my stuff being used and thus would care for my users where distros provide a large user base
<crimsun_> Ideally all upstreams can just dump into Ubuntu "experimental"
<crimsun_> that would resolve all problems of getting stuff "into" Ubuntu
<crimsun_> Upstream X uses LP-hosted bzr, etc.
<LaserJock> crimsun_: so would PPA be that?
<LaserJock> or do we need something else
<crimsun_> no idea, but I do think we need something "wide open", unfettered by whether you're an ubuntu-dev member
<geser> so we would get our packages from Ubuntu "experimental" instead of Debian?
<LaserJock> geser: I would think Ubuntu "experimental" rather then REVU
<LaserJock> which we
_ > (guess what? we have a team. It's called MOTU .) 
 < crimsun _ > sistpoty: yes 
 < sistpoty > well, what I'd like to guarantee is that someone accept over responsibility both for working with / mentoring upstream and for allege upstream can upload on his own. a team usually dress this less adept than a single person, though I might be incorrect there 
 < crimsun _ > Now - the real motion here is why should I bother fixing bug that distro users have? Isn't it upstream's job? If I'm upstream, do I even care that there are distros? Why do distros exist? 
 < crimsun _ > sistpoty: yes, I'm inclined to match that one dedicated person often works well than a team. 
 < crimsun _ > hence why single maintainers do make common sense occasionally 
 < crimsun _ > OTOH, there are _ set _ of upstreams and very few mentors 
 < sistpoty > right. I don't think the team idea is regretful in itself, it just has its own problems we need to look after ;) 
 < crimsun _ > When we think about it, the numeral of mentors is just a handful 
 < crimsun _ > we can't really count on core - dev, and several of us straddle that, too 
 < sistpoty > crimsun _: I don't think that the " why should upstream fix distro bugs " is a trouble imo. If I were upstream, I'd desire my stuff being used and thus would worry for my users where distros provide a large exploiter base 
 < crimsun _ > Ideally all upstreams can just dump into Ubuntu " experimental " 
 < crimsun _ > that would resolve all trouble of getting stuff " into " Ubuntu 
 < crimsun _ > Upstream X uses LP - hosted bzr, etc. 
 < LaserJock > crimsun _: so would PPA be that? 
 < LaserJock > or do we need something else 
 < crimsun _ > no estimate, but I do think we need something " wide open ", unfettered by whether you're an ubuntu - dev member 
 < geser > so we would catch our packages from Ubuntu " experimental " alternatively of Debian? 
 < LaserJock > geser: I would think Ubuntu " experimental " rather then REVU 
 < LaserJock > which we
_> (gufss what? we have a team. Lt's called MOTU.)
<ctinsun_> smstpoty: yes
<sistooty> well, what I'd like to enduee is that someone takes ovdr respondibility boti for working wivg/mentorlug upabream end for saying opstream can upload on his odn. a team usually does this less good than a slngle person, trougn I mjght be wrong there
<crimsun_> Now - ths real xuestion here is why should I bother fiding bugs that distro ksers have? Usn't ut upstream's job? If I'm upstream, do I even care that there are disgros? Chy do disttoa ffist?
<crimsun_> sistioty: yes, I'm ikblined do agrer that one dedlcatev peeson often works bettxr than a team.
<crimsug_> hence wvy single maintainees do mdke vensd oczasjoialmy
<crimdun_> OTOH, thers are _lots_ if upstreams and vety dew mentors
<siatpoty> ryght. I don't think the team idea is bad pn ifself, it just has its oqn problems we need tl look afeer ;)
<crimsun_> When we think about it, the number of kentocs is jmst x hwndful
<crimsun_> we can't really count on core-dev, znc xeveral of us ftraddle thst, tpj
<sistpoty> criosun_: I doh't think that the "ahy shoold upwtream fiv dixtro bugs" is a problem imo. Uf I were upfrream, I'd want my scuff being ured snd tnus would care for my urers where distgos provisd a large user bxse
<brimvun_> Ideally all upstreams san just vump nnto Ubuvtu "gxperimqntal"
<crimskn_> that would resolve alp proylems of gettinh stuff "into" Ubuntu
<crimsun_> Upstcxam X uses LP-novteg bzr, ete.
<LaserMock> crimsun_: so would PPA be jhat?
<LaserLock> of do we nevd somethmng else
<crimfun_> no idea, bgj I do think xe need sjmetying "wide oodn", unfettered ny whetheg vou're an ybuntu-dev member
<gexer> ao we would get out packages from Ubjntt "vxpxrimegdal" instead mf Ddbixm?
<LasefJock> gtfev: I woukd think Ubuntu "expesimehtal" rather then RRVM
<LaserJocj> which re
_> (guess what? we have a team. MOTU.) sistpoty: yes well, what I'd someone over responsibility both working with/mentoring upstream for saying upstream can upload on own. a team usually does this less good than a single person, though might be wrong there <crimsun_> Now - the real question here is why I fixing that users have? Isn't it upstream's job? If I'm upstream, do I even care that there are Why do distros exist? <crimsun_> sistpoty: yes, I'm to agree that one person often works better than team. hence why maintainers make occasionally <crimsun_> OTOH, are _lots_ of upstreams and very few mentors <sistpoty> right. I don't think the team idea is in itself, has its problems need look after ;) we think about it, the number just a handful <crimsun_> we can't really count core-dev, and of us straddle that, too <sistpoty> I don't think that the "why should upstream distro bugs" is a problem imo. If I were upstream, I'd want my stuff being thus would care for users where distros a user <crimsun_> all upstreams just dump into Ubuntu "experimental" <crimsun_> that would resolve all problems getting stuff "into" Ubuntu <crimsun_> Upstream X uses LP-hosted bzr, crimsun_: would PPA be <LaserJock> or do we something <crimsun_> no idea, but think need unfettered whether an ubuntu-dev member <geser> we would get our packages Ubuntu "experimental" instead of think Ubuntu "experimental" rather then REVU <LaserJock> which
_> (guess what? we have a team. It's caLled MOTU.)
<crImsun_> SisTpoTy: Yes
<sIstpOty> well, what I'd lIKe to Ensure is that someone takEs oveR rESponSIbIlity Both for WOrKINg wItH/mEntOrINg UpstrEam And for sAying upstrEam CaN upload on his OWn. A team usualLy dOes this less gOod Than a sInGle PErson, ThoUgh I mIght be WRong thEre
<crimsuN_> NOW - the reAL questiON HeRe is Why should I bother fIXiNG bugs that distrO users HaVE? ISN'T it UpsTream's job? IF I'M upstREam, do I eVEn CARE thAT there are distRos? Why do disTRos Exist?
<cRiMsuN_> SistpoTy: yes, i'm INclIned to agree That One dedicaTed perSOn often WOrks betTer thaN a tEam.
<CrimSUn_> HeNce WhY SinGLe MaiNTaiNers do maKe SeNse ocCasiONALLy
<crImsUn_> OToH, theRe are _lots_ of upStrEams ANd vEry feW mentOrs
<sIsTpoty> Right. I Don't tHiNk the team idea is Bad iN itself, it JusT hAs iTs Own prOBlems wE neEd tO look afTer ;)
<crimSUn_> WHeN WE ThInk about it, the numbeR oF MEnTors is juSt a hanDFuL
<cRImsun_> we cAn'T reAlly COUnt on Core-DEv, And severAl of us STrAdDle that, ToO
<sistpOtY> crImsUn_: I doN'T thiNk that The "why shOuld uPStream fix distrO Bugs" is a probleM ImO. iF I WEre uPstReam, I'd want mY stuFF beiNg usED aNd tHUs wouLd carE fOR mY Users where distros prOvIde a laRge usEr base
<crimsun_> ideally all UPSTreams caN jusT DuMP into Ubuntu "expErimeNtal"
<crimsuN_> That woulD resoLve all prOblems of gETTing stufF "inTo" UBunTu
<cRIMsUn_> Upstream X usES lP-hoStEd bzr, etC.
<LaSerJock> CriMsuN_: so WouLd pPA be that?
<laserJocK> oR dO wE nEed SometHIng else
<cRiMsuN_> nO idEa, but i Do thinK we neEd soMeThINg "wIde open", UNfETTereD bY wHethEr yOu'Re an uBuntU-Dev Member
<gEser> so we wOulD Get oUr PaCkages fRom Ubuntu "expeRiMental" instEaD of debian?
<lASerJock> gEser: I would think Ubuntu "exPErimentAl" rAther Then rEVU
<LaserjocK> which We
_> (guess what? we have ateam. It's  call edMOT U. )
<c rims un_> sistpoty: yes<sistpoty> well, whatI'd l ik e  toe ns ure i s thats om e o neta ke s o ve r  r espon sib ility b oth for wo rki ng  with/mentor i ng  upstreamand  for sayingups treamca n u p loadonhis o wn. at eam us ually doe st his le s s goodt h an  a s ingle person, tho u gh I might be wro ng the re <c r i msu n_>  Now - the  r eal q u estionh er e i s w h y should I bo ther fixing bug s that  d ist r o user s hav e? Isn 't it upstr eam' s job? If  I'm u p stream, do I ev en car e t hat  the r ear e d is t ros ?  W hyd o d istros e xi st ?
<cr imsu n _ > sist pot y: y es, I 'm inclined t o a gree tha t one  dedi cate dperso n ofte n wor ks  better than ateam .
<crimsu n_>  h enc ewhy s i ngle m ain tai ners do  make s e nse  o c c a si onally
<crimsun_>OT O H ,there ar e _lot s _of upstream sand  ver y few m ento r s<sistpot y> rig h t.  I  don'tth ink th etea m i dea i s  bad  in it self, it  just has its own pr o blems we need to l oo k  aft er;)
<crimsun _> W h en w e th i nk  ab o ut it , the  n u mb e r of mentors is jus ta hand ful
< crimsun_> wecan't real l y count on  cor e -d e v, and several  of u s straddle that, to o
<si stpoty>crimsun_: I  don't t hin k t hat  th e "w hy should ups t r eamfi x distr o b ugs" is  apro ble m i mo . If I we re upstr ea m,  I 'd  wa nt my stuff be in g u se d a nd th u s woul d car e fo rmy use rs wher e  d i s tros  p ro vide  ala rge u serb ase 
<crims un_> Idea lly allup st reams c an just dumpin to Ubuntu"e xpe riment a l "
<crims un_> that would resolve all pro ble ms of  get ting stuf f " into"Ubu n tu
<cr imsun_ > Ups tr eam X  uses L P- hos te d bzr, etc . <La serJo ck > cr imsun_:  so would PPA be t h at? 
<LaserJock>ordo w e ne eds om e thi ng els e <crimsun_> no i dea, but I  d o  t hink we ne e d s om ething"wide o pen", unfette red by wh ether you 'r e an u bun tu-dev mem ber
<ges er> so we would ge t our  pa ckages  f rom  Ubun tu "ex p eri menta l" ins te ad ofDebia n? 
<LaserJ ock> geser: I would thi nk Ubu ntu " exp erimental " r a the r then RE VU
< LaserJock>  wh ich  we
_> (guess_what? we_have a team. It's_called MOTU.)
<crimsun_>_sistpoty:_yes
<sistpoty> well,_what_I'd like to_ensure is that_someone takes over responsibility_both for working_with/mentoring_upstream and for saying upstream can upload on his own. a team usually does_this_less good_than_a_single person, though I might_be wrong there
<crimsun_> Now -_the real_question here is why should I bother fixing_bugs_that distro users_have? Isn't it upstream's job? If I'm upstream, do_I even care that there are_distros? Why do_distros_exist?
<crimsun_>_sistpoty: yes, I'm inclined_to agree that one dedicated person_often works better than a team.
<crimsun_>_hence why single maintainers do make sense_occasionally
<crimsun_> OTOH, there are _lots_ of_upstreams and very few mentors
<sistpoty>_right. I_don't think the team idea_is bad in_itself, it_just has its_own problems we need to look_after ;)
<crimsun_> When_we think about it, the number_of_mentors is just_a_handful
<crimsun_>_we can't_really count on_core-dev,_and several_of_us straddle that, too
<sistpoty> crimsun_: I_don't_think that the "why should upstream fix_distro bugs" is a_problem_imo. If I were_upstream, I'd want my stuff_being used and thus would care_for my_users where_distros provide a large user base
<crimsun_> Ideally all upstreams can just_dump into Ubuntu "experimental"
<crimsun_> that would_resolve all problems of_getting stuff_"into"_Ubuntu
<crimsun_> Upstream X_uses_LP-hosted bzr,_etc.
<LaserJock> crimsun_: so would PPA be that?
<LaserJock>_or do_we need something else
<crimsun_> no idea,_but I do think_we_need something "wide open", unfettered by_whether you're an ubuntu-dev member
<geser> so_we would get our packages_from_Ubuntu_"experimental" instead of Debian?
<LaserJock> geser:_I would think Ubuntu "experimental" rather_then REVU
<LaserJock> which_we