 miss some changes.
<niemeyer> hazmat_: You mean it's a bomb? :)
<hazmat_> niemeyer: but i don't see how that's avoidable, its a networked system, and subject to disconnect at any time for any period.
<niemeyer> hazmat_: Error handling in the face of disconnections is a normal problem
<hazmat_> niemeyer: alternatives?
<niemeyer> hazmat_: Error handling?
<hazmat_> niemeyer: wrap connection eror handling around every zk interaction?
<niemeyer> hazmat_: Yes, handle errors they can happen, basically
<niemeyer> s/they/when they/
<niemeyer> hazmat_: Eventually we should have a "disconnected" hook
<hazmat_> niemeyer: these aren't normal api errors, their arbitrary connection errors, defining a central place for that logic seems like a win to me, if we want to recover without the spurious hook execution, we need consistent on disk state reflecting what the hooks have been made aware of, to reconcile to the current zk state after the connection is resumed.. 
<niemeyer> hazmat_: My concern is that by "central logic" you mean "crashing"
<niemeyer> hazmat_: The problem is that arbitrary connection errors are actually normal errors
<hazmat_> niemeyer: it doesn't have to be, but anything more intelligent needs resumable components (on disk reconcilliation to zk imo), but we can't assume the unit agent process is always alive or connected at all times, and right now we have volatile memory state that needs to be captured for any process restarts. alternatively though.. it could just reattempt to connect ad naseum... but then we have to determine if our session 
<hazmat_> niemeyer: their not the same imo.. they effect more than just the current api call, they can effect a slew of out of band/path things
<niemeyer> hazmat_: and that's normal!
<niemeyer> hazmat_: The fact we haven't been handling them as such is why it's hard now
 * hazmat_ ponders
<hazmat_> niemeyer: the problem of watchers and ephemeral nodes re-establishment, isn't a local concern
miss some changes. 
 < niemeyer > hazmat _: You mean it's a bomb? :) 
 < hazmat _ > niemeyer: but i don't visualize how that's evitable, its a networked system, and subject to unplug at any time for any menstruation. 
 < niemeyer > hazmat _: Error handling in the boldness of disconnections is a normal problem 
 < hazmat _ > niemeyer: option? 
 < niemeyer > hazmat _: mistake handling? 
 < hazmat _ > niemeyer: wrap joining eror handling around every zk interaction? 
 < niemeyer > hazmat _: Yes, handle error they can find, basically 
 < niemeyer > s / they / when they/ 
 < niemeyer > hazmat _: Eventually we should have a " confused " hook 
 < hazmat _ > niemeyer: these aren't normal api errors, their arbitrary association errors, defining a central position for that logic seems like a win to me, if we want to recover without the specious hook execution, we need consistent on disk department of state reflecting what the hooks have been made aware of, to reconcile to the current zk state after the connection is resumed.. 
 < niemeyer > hazmat _: My concern is that by " central logic " you mean " crashing " 
 < niemeyer > hazmat _: The problem is that arbitrary connection errors are actually normal errors 
 < hazmat _ > niemeyer: it doesn't have to be, but anything more healthy need resumable components (on magnetic disk reconcilliation to zk imo), but we can't wear the unit agent process is constantly alive or connected at all times, and right nowadays we have volatile memory state that needs to be captured for any process restarts. alternatively though.. it could precisely reattempt to connect ad naseum... but then we have to determine if our session 
 < hazmat _ > niemeyer: their not the like imo.. they effect more than just the current api call option, they can effect a batch of out of isthmus / path things 
 < niemeyer > hazmat _: and that's normal! 
 < niemeyer > hazmat _: The fact we haven't been handling them as such is why it's heavily now 
  * hazmat _ ponders 
 < hazmat _ > niemeyer: the problem of watchers and ephemeral nodes re - establishment, isn't a local concern
 mids some changes.
<niemeyer> mazmat_: You mean nr's a bmmb? :)
<haamat_> nieoeyer: but i don't see how thav's acoidavle, its a networked syrtem, and dubject ro dmsconnect at any time fov any ieriob.
<nmemeyer> hazmat_: Grror handlitg in the face ow bisconnections is a normal problem
<hasmat_> nirmfyer: alternatides?
<npeieyed> hazmat_: Error handling?
<hazmat_> niemsyer: wrep connection etor handling around every xk ijteraction?
<niemeyer> hazmat_: Yes, hanqoe errors thdy can hapkeu, basically
<hiemeyer> s/they/when they/
<niemeyer> hazmct_: Eventualoy we vhould have a "difconnected" hook
<hazmad_> niemeuer: these aren'b norkal api errors, their arbmtrary connection ertors, definhny a central place for tyat lmgic seeow lkke a wjn to le, mf we want fo recover qithout the spurioux riok execution, we neqd consistent on disk state reflecting whdt fhe hooks have been madw aware of, to reconcipe to the current zk state after the connection is resumed.. 
<niemxydr> kqzmat_: Ny concern is that by "central logic" you mean "crwahonn"
<niemeyer> hazmat_: The problek ls jhat arbitrary conneefikn errors are actuwlly notmal eerors
<hazmwt_> noemeyer: it doesn't have to bw, but anythiug nore intelligent nzeds resumabue cpmponrnts (on disk reconcilliction fo zk imo), bkt we can'f assume the unit agvnt [rocess is always alive or connectev at cll timer, anc righe now we hwve volatile memory statf thaj needv to be caotured for any process restarts. alternatively tvouch.. it cobld juxt reattempt eo connect ad uaseum... bbt thev we have no determmne if our sqssion 
<hazmat_> jiemeyer: themr not thq sane ino.. they dffect more thsn just tkt current qpi call, they can cffecj z slew of out oy vand/path things
<mieoeyqr> hezmat_: dnd that's nosmal!
<vieoryer> fazmat_: Uke nacg we haven't been handlinc thsm as such is why ot'f hard niw
 * hazmwt_ ponders
<hazkat_> niemeyer: the pgoblek oh watcnerf and ephemeral nodes re-establjshment, idn't a local consern
miss some changes. <niemeyer> hazmat_: You mean bomb? <hazmat_> niemeyer: i don't see networked and subject to at any time any period. <niemeyer> hazmat_: Error handling the face of disconnections is a normal problem <hazmat_> niemeyer: alternatives? <niemeyer> hazmat_: handling? <hazmat_> niemeyer: wrap connection eror handling around every zk interaction? <niemeyer> hazmat_: handle they happen, <niemeyer> s/they/when they/ <niemeyer> hazmat_: Eventually we should have a "disconnected" hook <hazmat_> niemeyer: these aren't api errors, their arbitrary connection errors, defining a place for that logic like a win to me, we to recover the hook we need consistent disk state reflecting what the hooks have been made aware of, to reconcile to the current zk after the resumed.. <niemeyer> My is by "central logic" "crashing" <niemeyer> hazmat_: The problem is errors are actually normal errors <hazmat_> niemeyer: it have to but anything more intelligent needs resumable (on disk reconcilliation to zk imo), but we assume the unit agent process is always alive or connected at all times, and right have volatile memory state needs to be for process alternatively it could reattempt to connect ad naseum... but then we have to determine our session <hazmat_> niemeyer: their not the same imo.. they than the current api they can effect a of of band/path things <niemeyer> that's <niemeyer> we been them as such is it's hard now * hazmat_ <hazmat_> niemeyer: the problem re-establishment, isn't a local concern
 miss some changes.
<niemeyer> haZmat_: You meaN it's a BomB? :)
<haZmAt_> niEmeyEr: but i don't see hOW thaT's avoidable, its a networkEd sysTeM, And sUBjEct to DisconnECt AT Any TiMe For AnY PeRiod.
<nIemEyer> hazMat_: Error haNdlInG in the face of DIsConnectionS is A normal problEm
<hAzmat_> nIeMeyER: alteRnaTives?
<NiemeyER> hazmaT_: Error hanDlINg?
<hazmAT_> niemeyER: WrAp coNnection eror handlINg ARound every zk inTeractIoN?
<NiEMEyeR> haZmat_: Yes, hanDlE erroRS they caN HaPPEN, baSIcally
<niemeyeR> s/they/when tHEy/
<nIemeyeR> hAzmAT_: EventUally We SHouLd have a "discOnneCted" hook
<hAzmat_> nIEmeyer: tHEse aren'T normaL apI erRors, THeIr ArbItRAry COnNecTIon Errors, deFiNiNg a ceNtraL PLACe foR thAt loGic seEms like a win to Me, iF we wANt tO recoVer wiThouT tHe spuRious hOok exEcUtion, we need consIsteNt on disk sTatE rEflEcTing wHAt the hOokS haVe been mAde awarE Of, tO rECONcIle to the current zk sTaTE AfTer the coNnectiON iS rESumed.. 
<nieMeYer> HazmAT_: my conCern IS tHat by "cenTral loGIc" YoU mean "crAsHing"
<niEmEyeR> haZmat_: THE proBlem is That arbiTrary COnnection errorS Are actually noRMaL ERrORs
<haZmaT_> niemeyer: it DoesN'T havE to bE, BuT anYThing More iNtELlIGent needs resumable cOmPonentS (on diSk reconcilliaTion to zk imO), BUT we can't aSsumE ThE Unit agent proceSs is aLways alive OR connectEd at aLl times, aNd right noW WE have volAtiLe mEmoRy sTATe That needs to be CAPturEd For any pRocEss restArtS. alTerNatIvEly though.. It could jUsT rEaTtEmpT to coNNect ad naSeUm... bUt TheN we haVE to detErminE if oUr SeSSioN 
<hazmat_> NIeMEYer: tHeIr Not tHe sAmE imo.. tHey eFFecT more thAn just the CurREnt aPi CaLl, they cAn effect a slew Of Out of band/pAtH thIngs
<niEMEyer> hazmAt_: and that's normal!
<niemeyeR> Hazmat_: THe fAct we HaveN't been hanDliNg them As sUCh is whY it's haRd now
 * HaZmaT_ POnderS
<HAzMat_> NiEmeyer: the pROBleM of waTcHers And epheMeral nodes re-establIShmEnt, isn't a local ConCern
 miss some changes.
<nieme yer> hazma t_: Y oumea nit's  a b omb? :)
<hazma t _> n iemeyer: but i don't s ee ho wt hat' s  a voida ble, it s  a n etw or ke d s ys t em , and  su bject t o disconne ctat  any time fo r  a ny period. 
<n iemeyer> haz mat _: Err or  ha n dling  in  theface o f  disco nnections  i s  a nor m al prob l e m<haz mat_> niemeyer: a l te r natives?
<niem eyer>ha z ma t _ : E rro r handling ?<hazm a t_> nie m ey e r :  wr a p connectioneror handli n g a roundev ery zk int eract io n ?
< niemeyer> h azma t_: Yes,handle errorst hey can  happe n,bas ical l y<n iem ey e r>s /t hey / whe n they/<n ie meyer > ha z m a t _: E ven tual ly we  should havea " disc o nne cted"  hook 
<ha zm at_>niemey er: t he se aren't norma l ap i errors,  th ei r a rb itrar y  conne cti onerrors,  defini n g a  c e n t ra l place for that l og i c  s eems lik e a wi n  t om e, if we  w ant  tor e cover  wit h ou t the sp urious ho ok  execut io n, wene edcon siste n t on  diskstate re flect i ng what the ho o ks have beenm ad e aw a re o f,to reconcil e to thecurr e nt  zk state  afte rt he connection is resum ed .. 
<n iemey er> hazmat_:My concern i s  that by  "ce n tr a l logic" you m ean " crashing"< niemeyer > haz mat_: Th e problem i s that a rbi tra rycon n e ct ion errors ar e actu al ly norm alerrors<ha zma t_>  ni em eyer: itdoesn'tha ve  t obe,  buta nythingmo rein tel ligen t  needs  resu mabl eco m pon ents (o n  d i s k re co nc illi ati on  to z k im o ),but wecan't ass ume theun it  agentprocess is al wa ys alive o rcon nected a t all ti mes, and right now we h a ve vola til e mem orystate tha t n eeds t o b e  captu red fo r any  p roc e s s res t a rt s.al ternativel y tho ugh..  i t co uld jus t reattempt to con n ect  ad naseum...  bu t th e n  w e h a ve tode t erm i n e if our sessio n 
<hazmat _> ni emeyer: th e irno t the s ame imo .. th e y effec t more th an just t he  cur r e ntapi call,they can  effect a slewo fout o f b and/pa th  th ings<nieme y er>  hazm at_: a nd  that' s nor ma l!
<niem eyer> hazmat_: The fact  we ha ven't  be en handli ngt hem  as suchis w hy it's ha rdnow 
 * h azm a t_ po nder s 
< haz m at_>niem e yer: thep ro ble m of  watchers a n d eph emera l n o des re -est ablishment, isn't a local concer n
 miss_some changes.
<niemeyer>_hazmat_: You mean it's_a bomb?_:)
<hazmat_>_niemeyer: but_i_don't see how_that's avoidable, its_a networked system, and_subject to disconnect_at_any time for any period.
<niemeyer> hazmat_: Error handling in the face of disconnections is_a_normal problem
<hazmat_>_niemeyer:_alternatives?
<niemeyer>_hazmat_: Error handling?
<hazmat_> niemeyer: wrap_connection eror handling around every_zk interaction?
<niemeyer>_hazmat_: Yes, handle errors they can happen, basically
<niemeyer>_s/they/when_they/
<niemeyer> hazmat_: Eventually_we should have a "disconnected" hook
<hazmat_> niemeyer: these aren't_normal api errors, their arbitrary connection_errors, defining a_central_place_for that logic seems_like a win to me, if_we want to recover without the_spurious hook execution, we need consistent on_disk state reflecting what the hooks_have been made aware of,_to reconcile_to the current zk state_after the connection_is resumed.._
<niemeyer> hazmat_: My_concern is that by "central logic"_you mean "crashing"
<niemeyer>_hazmat_: The problem is that arbitrary_connection_errors are actually_normal_errors
<hazmat_>_niemeyer: it_doesn't have to_be,_but anything_more_intelligent needs resumable components (on disk_reconcilliation_to zk imo), but we can't assume_the unit agent process_is_always alive or connected_at all times, and right_now we have volatile memory state_that needs_to be_captured for any process restarts. alternatively though.. it could just reattempt_to connect ad naseum... but then_we have to determine_if our_session_
<hazmat_> niemeyer: their_not_the same_imo.. they effect more than just the_current api_call, they can effect a slew_of out of band/path_things
<niemeyer>_hazmat_: and that's normal!
<niemeyer> hazmat_: The_fact we haven't been handling them_as such is why it's_hard_now
_* hazmat_ ponders
<hazmat_> niemeyer: the_problem of watchers and ephemeral nodes_re-establishment, isn't a_local concern