, how would local error handling be able to compensate for a session expiry
<niemeyer> hazmat_: It's not about compensating.. it's about handling
<niemeyer> hazmat_: If error, then log problem, wait for reconnection, try agian, whatever
<hazmat_> niemeyer: ok.. how would it handle a session expiration
<hazmat_> niemeyer: it can do that locally, but the global application state also needs restoration
<niemeyer> hazmat_: Assuming that the best thing to do in every single path of the application is to crash in case a disconnection happens isn't a good approach IMO
<hazmat_> all of the extant watchers and ephemeral nodes
<niemeyer> hazmat_: Yes, all of that has to be considered..
<niemeyer> hazmat_: Or, we change the model completely
<hazmat_> niemeyer: such as?
<niemeyer> hazmat_: Such as a pull model..
<niemeyer> hazmat_: Get the state and diff
<hazmat_> niemeyer: bingo.. i think that's where we need to go, i think the global recovery can evolve from crash to effecting state diff reconcilliation
<niemeyer> hazmat_: That's not the same thing
<niemeyer> hazmat_: This feels like doing things the reversed way
<hazmat_> the individual components do the state diff reconcilliation
<niemeyer> hazmat_: We have a bunch of things running we have no idea, then we stop everything that was running because we don't know how to handle errors, and then try everything again
<hazmat_> be it service config, or relation watching, etc
<niemeyer> hazmat_: The forward approach is: we always know the next step
<hazmat_> we stop and reconcile because none of those components are functional if we don't
<niemeyer> hazmat_: Because they ignore errors!
<kirkland> SpamapS: i'm about to knock off for a bit;  did you get around to fix that txzookeeper copyright issue?
<kirkland> SpamapS: ensemble is *almost* installable from the archive ;-)
<hazmat_> niemeyer: hmm.. so alternatively
, how would local error handling be able to compensate for a session termination 
 < niemeyer > hazmat _: It's not about cover.. it's about handling 
 < niemeyer > hazmat _: If error, then log problem, expect for reconnection, try agian, whatever 
 < hazmat _ > niemeyer: ok.. how would it handle a session termination 
 < hazmat _ > niemeyer: it can do that locally, but the global lotion department of state also need restoration 
 < niemeyer > hazmat _: Assuming that the good thing to cause in every single path of the lotion is to crash in case a disconnection happen isn't a good approach IMO 
 < hazmat _ > all of the extant spectator and ephemeral nodes 
 < niemeyer > hazmat _: Yes, all of that has to be see.. 
 < niemeyer > hazmat _: Or, we change the model completely 
 < hazmat _ > niemeyer: such as? 
 < niemeyer > hazmat _: Such as a pull model.. 
 < niemeyer > hazmat _: Get the department of state and diff 
 < hazmat _ > niemeyer: bingo.. i think that's where we need to go, i think the global recovery can evolve from crash to effecting state diff reconcilliation 
 < niemeyer > hazmat _: That's not the same thing 
 < niemeyer > hazmat _: This feels like doing things the reversed way 
 < hazmat _ > the individual component do the state diff reconcilliation 
 < niemeyer > hazmat _: We receive a crowd of thing running we have no theme, then we stop everything that was running because we don't know how to handle error, and then try everything again 
 < hazmat _ > be it service config, or relation watching, etc 
 < niemeyer > hazmat _: The forward approach is: we constantly know the next step 
 < hazmat _ > we stop and resign because none of those components are running if we don't 
 < niemeyer > hazmat _: Because they dismiss errors! 
 < kirkland > SpamapS: i'm about to knock off for a bit;   did you get about to fix that txzookeeper copyright issue? 
 < kirkland > SpamapS: ensemble is * almost * installable from the archive ;-) 
 < hazmat _ > niemeyer: hmm.. so alternatively
, hoa would local error handuing be able to compenvate fkr a sesrion expiry
<niemeyer> hazmat_: Iv's nit abiut compensating.. it's acout handping
<niemwyer> yazmat_: If xdror, thcu log iroblzm, wait for recoknection, trf agian, whatevar
<favmat_> niemeyer: ok.. how would it handle a sessooj expiration
<haemat_> myemegvr: it can do that locally, but tge globel application xtate also needs restoratiln
<nifmeyer> hazmat_: Assuling that tye bqwt thing to ao in everj single pajh of the application is to crasf in ease a discinbechhon happens isn't a good approach IMO
<vazmat_> sll of the extsnt warchers and ephemeral iodes
<niemeyer> hazmat_: Yes, all mf that has to be cinwidergd..
<niekeyef> haxmau_: Oc, ws chanhe vhe model ckmpletely
<hazmat_> niemeyer: such ss?
<gprmeyer> hazmaf_: Such af a pull model..
<niemeyer> hazmat_: Get the suate znd diff
<hazmat_> niemeyer: bingo.. i think that's ahere we geed to go, i think the global recovery can evolve from zrawh gi fffecting state diff reconcilliation
<niemeyer> rzzkan_: That's not the scme thing
<niemeyet> jaaiat_: This feelr like dojng things the revfrsed wwy
<haznat_> the igdivodual components do the stare diff recoucioliation
<niemeyer> hczmat_: We havz a bumch og things running we havz no isea, then we stop evedhthing that was funkinc becaust we don't know how to handlx errprs, and them try qverything agaik
<vazmat_> be it servife coufig, mr relatioj watching, etc
<niemeyer> hazmat_: Tix forward apptoawh ps: we alwcys knpw the next seep
<hazmat_> we sjop and rzconciue because none oh those compjnents are futftional if wx don't
<nieieyee> hazmat_: Bezxuse they ignote errors!
<kirkland> SpamapS: i'm about to knudk off for a bic;  did you get arpuna tj vie thae txzookeeper cophrient isrue?
<kirkland> RpamspS: ensemble is *almovt* ihstallable from thr wrchive ;-)
<yazmat_> nyemeyer: hmm.. sp alternatively
, how would local error handling be compensate a session <niemeyer> hazmat_: It's handling hazmat_: If error, log problem, wait reconnection, try agian, whatever <hazmat_> niemeyer: how would it handle a session expiration <hazmat_> niemeyer: it can do that but the global application state also needs restoration <niemeyer> hazmat_: Assuming that the thing do every path of the application is to crash in case a disconnection happens isn't a good approach <hazmat_> all of the extant watchers and ephemeral <niemeyer> hazmat_: Yes, all that has to be considered.. hazmat_: we change model <hazmat_> such as? <niemeyer> Such as a pull model.. <niemeyer> hazmat_: Get the state and diff <hazmat_> niemeyer: bingo.. i think where we go, i the recovery evolve from crash state diff reconcilliation <niemeyer> hazmat_: That's thing <niemeyer> hazmat_: This feels like doing things reversed way the individual components do the state reconcilliation <niemeyer> hazmat_: We have a bunch of running we have no idea, then we stop everything that was running because we don't to handle errors, and try everything again be service or watching, etc hazmat_: The forward approach is: we always know the next step we stop and reconcile because none of those components are we <niemeyer> hazmat_: Because ignore errors! <kirkland> SpamapS: about knock off for a you around txzookeeper issue? SpamapS: ensemble is *almost* from the archive ;-) <hazmat_> hmm.. so alternatively
, how would local error handlinG be able to cOmpenSatE foR a SessIon eXpiry
<niemeyer> hAZmat_: it's not about compensatinG.. it's aBoUT hanDLiNg
<nieMeyer> haZMaT_: iF erRoR, tHen LoG PrOblem, WaiT for recOnnection, tRy aGiAn, whatever
<haZMaT_> niemeyer: oK.. hoW would it handLe a SessioN eXpiRAtion
<HazMat_> niEmeyer: IT can do That localLy, BUt the gLObal appLICaTion State also needs resTOrATion
<niemeyer> haZmat_: AsSuMInG THat The Best thing tO dO in evERy singlE PaTH OF thE Application is To crash in caSE a dIsconnEcTioN HappenS isn't A gOOd aPproach IMO
<hAzmaT_> all of the Extant WAtchers ANd ephemEral noDes
<NieMeyeR> HaZmAt_: YEs, ALl oF ThAt hAS to Be considErEd..
<NiemeYer> hAZMAT_: Or, wE chAnge The moDel completely
<HazMat_> nIEmeYer: suCh as?
<nIemeYeR> hazmAt_: Such As a puLl Model..
<niemeyer> haZmat_: get the staTe aNd DifF
<hAzmat_> NIemeyeR: biNgo.. I think tHat's wheRE we NeED TO gO, i think the global reCoVERy Can evolvE from cRAsH tO EffectinG sTatE difF REconcIlliATiOn
<niemeyEr> hazmAT_: THaT's not thE sAme thiNg
<NieMeyEr> hazMAt_: ThIs feelS like doiNg thiNGs the reversed wAY
<hazmat_> the indIViDUAl COmpoNenTs do the statE difF RecoNcilLIaTioN
<NiemeYer> haZmAT_: WE Have a bunch of things rUnNing we Have nO idea, then we stOp everythiNG THat was ruNninG BeCAuse we don't know How to Handle erroRS, and then Try evErything Again
<hazmAT_> Be it servIce ConFig, Or rELAtIon watching, etC
<NIemeYeR> hazmat_: the Forward AppRoaCh iS: we AlWays know tHe next stEp
<HaZmAt_> We sTop anD ReconcilE bEcaUsE noNe of tHOse comPonenTs arE fUnCTioNal if we DOn'T
<NIemeYeR> hAzmaT_: BeCaUse thEy igNOre Errors!
<kIrkland> SpAmaPs: i'm aBoUt To knock Off for a bit;  did YoU get around To Fix That txZOOkeeper cOpyright issue?
<kirkland> SpAMapS: ensEmbLe is *aLmosT* installaBle From thE arCHive ;-)
<haZmat_> niEmeyeR: hMm.. sO ALternATIvEly
, how would local error ha ndling beabletocom pe nsat e fo r a session ex p iry<niemeyer> hazmat_: It 's no ta bout co mpens ating.. it ' s  ab ou than dl i ng 
<nie mey er> haz mat_: If e rro r,  then log pr o bl em, wait f orreconnection , t ry agi an , w h ateve r
< hazma t_> ni e meyer:  ok.. how  w o uld it handlea se ssio n expiration
<haz m at _ > niemeyer: it  can d ot ha t loc all y, but the  g lobal applica t io n s tat e  also needs r estoration< nie meyer>  h azm a t_: As sumin gt hat  the best t hing  to do in  every singlep ath ofthe ap pli cat ioni sto  cr as h  in ca sea  di sconnect io nhappe ns i s n ' t  a g ood  app roach  IMO
<hazmat_ > a ll o f  th e ext ant w atch er s and  ephem eralno des
<niemeyer>hazm at_: Yes,  al lofth at ha s  to be  co nsi dered.. 
<nieme y er>  h a z m at _: Or, we change t he m od el compl etely< ha zm a t_> niem ey er:  suc h as?
< niem e ye r> hazma t_: Su c has  a pull  m odel.. 
< nie mey er> h a zmat _: Get  the sta te an d  diff
<hazmat_ >  niemeyer: bi n go . .  i thin k t hat's where  wen eedto g o ,i t h ink t he gl ob a lr ecovery can evolvefr om cra sh to  effecting st ate diff r e c o ncilliat ion< ni e meyer> hazmat_ : Tha t's not th e  same th ing
< niemeyer > hazmat_ : This fee lslik e d oin g th ings the reve r s ed w ay 
<hazma t_>  the in div idu alcom po nents dothe stat edi ff  r eco ncill i ation
<n ie mey er > h azmat _ : We h ave a  bun ch  o f  th ings ru n ni n g  weha ve  noide a,  then  wes top  everyt hing that  wa s  run ni ng  becaus e we don't kn ow  how to ha nd leerrors , and then  try everything again
< h azmat_>  be  it s ervi ce config , o r rela tio n  watch ing, e tc
<n ie mey e r > haz m a t_ : T he  forward a p p roa ch is :we a lways k now the next step< haz mat_> we stop  an d re c o nc ile be c aus en one o f those compone nts are fu nc t io nal if wed on' t<niemey er> haz mat_: Because  they ign ore error s! 
<ki r k lan d> SpamapS : i'm ab out to kn o ck of f  f or abit ;  did  y ouget a roundt o f ix th at txz oo keeper  copy ri ght issu e?
<kirkland> SpamapS:ensemb le is  *a lmost* in sta l lab le from t he a rchive ;-) 
<h azm at_>nie m eyer:  hmm . .soa ltern ativ e ly
, how_would local_error handling be able_to compensate_for_a session_expiry
<niemeyer>_hazmat_: It's not_about compensating.. it's_about handling
<niemeyer> hazmat_: If_error, then log_problem,_wait for reconnection, try agian, whatever
<hazmat_> niemeyer: ok.. how would it handle a session_expiration
<hazmat_>_niemeyer: it_can_do_that locally, but the global_application state also needs restoration
<niemeyer>_hazmat_: Assuming_that the best thing to do in every_single_path of the_application is to crash in case a disconnection happens_isn't a good approach IMO
<hazmat_> all_of the extant_watchers_and_ephemeral nodes
<niemeyer> hazmat_: Yes,_all of that has to be_considered..
<niemeyer> hazmat_: Or, we change the_model completely
<hazmat_> niemeyer: such as?
<niemeyer> hazmat_: Such_as a pull model..
<niemeyer> hazmat_: Get_the state and diff
<hazmat_> niemeyer:_bingo.. i_think that's where we need_to go, i_think the_global recovery can_evolve from crash to effecting state_diff reconcilliation
<niemeyer> hazmat_:_That's not the same thing
<niemeyer> hazmat_:_This_feels like doing_things_the_reversed way
<hazmat_>_the individual components_do_the state_diff_reconcilliation
<niemeyer> hazmat_: We have a bunch_of_things running we have no idea, then_we stop everything that_was_running because we don't_know how to handle errors,_and then try everything again
<hazmat_> be_it service_config, or_relation watching, etc
<niemeyer> hazmat_: The forward approach is: we always know_the next step
<hazmat_> we stop and_reconcile because none of_those components_are_functional if we_don't
<niemeyer>_hazmat_: Because_they ignore errors!
<kirkland> SpamapS: i'm about to_knock off_for a bit;  did you_get around to fix_that_txzookeeper copyright issue?
<kirkland> SpamapS: ensemble is_*almost* installable from the archive ;-)
<hazmat_>_niemeyer: hmm.. so alternatively