 rule society? When the majority is vehemently opposed to any kind of equality for a particular minority, that minority has no choice but either to aggressively demand it or to create some kind of alternative culture outside the dominant group. What is likely to happen right now in this particular historical era? It seems very unlikely to me that radical political action is going to do anything. Radical political action achieved a lot in the 60s and 70s. I don't see it happening very much in the 90s. I don't know what will happen, but I'm sure that we will continue to employ the same techniques – going to the courts, going to the legislatures, trying to change public opinion and so forth. At the same time as we gain better representation? Perhaps, and slowly begin to shift the general population towards a little more tolerance, which I think has worked effectively over the past ten years. It's definitely a much better world to be lesbian in than it was 20 years ago. Anybody who doesn't think so did not live as a lesbian 20 years ago! Bonnie Zimmerman interviewed by Susan Sayer in San Diego November 15th, 1994 5 My question as to the implications of a majority gay politics of conservatism – I think that one has to go on hold. Except that I think we have made some rather poor choices in our predominant gay and lesbian movement in the issues that it has taken on. The best example for me is the issue of gays in the military. A very, very complicated issue. I think that it is actually more interesting than I first thought precisely because of the way in which it keeps popping up. The question of sexuality in militarism is so charged. If it is so charged it must really speak to something deep in the American psyche and therefore is worth analyzing. But having made it the dominant issue of the gay and lesbian movement, we first of all seem to be supporting militarism, rather than questioning – as I certainly would have preferred – questioning the whole notion of the military and we set ourselves up for a fall when we demanded and insisted that Clinton treat this issue first. He put himself into real political trouble right off at the beginning by attempting to pay back the community. He could not deliver and so now he is condemned by the gay movement because he was not good enough and suspect to the rest of them because he is beholden to queers and perverts I think that our lesbian and gay political leaders don't have a real good sense of politics, they don't have
rule society? When the majority is vehemently opposed to any kind of equality for a particular minority, that minority take no option but either to aggressively demand it or to create some kind of alternate culture outside the prevailing group. What is likely to happen correctly immediately in this particular historic era? It seems very improbable to me that radical political action is fail to serve anything. Radical political action achieved a lot in the 60s and seventy. I don't see it happening very much in the ninety. I don't know what will happen, but I'm sure that we will continue to employ the like techniques – become to the courts, going to the legislatures, test to change public opinion and so forth. At the same meter as we gain better representation? Perhaps, and slowly begin to shift the general population towards a little more tolerance, which I remember has worked effectively over the past ten class. It's definitely a much better world to be lesbian in than it was 20 class ago. Anybody who doesn't think so did not live as a lesbian 20 years ago! Bonnie Zimmerman interview by Susan Sayer in San Diego November 15th, 1994 5 My question as to the implications of a majority gay politics of conservatism – I think that one has to go on cargo area. Except that I think we have made some rather poor option in our predominant gay and lesbian bowel movement in the issues that it has taken on. The best example for me is the issue of homosexual in the military. A very, very complicated issue. I think that it is actually more interesting than I first thought precisely because of the way in which it keeps popping up. The question of sexuality in militarism is indeed charged. If it is then charged it must really talk to something deep in the American mind and therefore is deserving analyzing. But having made it the prevailing issue of the gay and lesbian movement, we first of all seem to be defend militarism, rather than questioning – as I certainly would have preferred – questioning the whole notion of the military and we set ourselves up for a spill when we demanded and insisted that Clinton process this issue first. He put himself into real political trouble right away at the beginning by attempting to pay back the community. He could not deliver and so now he is condemned by the gay campaign because he was not dear enough and suspect to the rest of them because he is beholden to queers and perverts I think that our lesbian and gay political leadership don't have a real good common sense of politics, they don't have
 rupe society? When the majovity is vehemently oppoved to any kina of equality for a particuler munoriuj, that minority has nu choice hut eithwr ti aggressivxmy demakb it kv to erxate some kind pf alternadive culture ogtribe the dominant group. What is likely to haplej right now in thix parfpcmlar historical era? It seems verg unliktly to me that radocal political action is gling to do anything. Rafical politucal qction achiexed a lot pu the 60s and 70s. I don't see it happening very much in the 90s. U eon'h know what xill hwppen, but I'm sure thdt we woll continue tp ekpliy the same techniquev – going to the coorts, going tk the legislaturew, rryinc to chavte oubmir olinion anv so forth. Zt the same time as we gain beutew representatikn? Perra[s, and slowly begin to shift the generan pkpulation towards a litrle more tolerance, whlch I thigk has worked effectively over the past ten years. It's vewinnbcly x mkch better world to be lesbian in than it was 20 ytarx ago. Anybody cho doesn't think sl cyd not live ar a lesbizn 20 years ago! Bonnle Zimmgrman unterviewtd by Susan Sayer in San Diego Nivember 15th, 1994 5 Ny question as to che implicatnons og a msjority gay politics of conaervatism – L think tgxt one has to go on hmld. Excekg that I think we have madx somz rather poot choicqs in our oredominant gay and lesblan mlvament in tje issues that it has taken on. Vie best exampke fog me is tke issme of gays in tre military. A rery, verv compuicated isaue. I tiink that it is actually klre interestmng than Y fiest rhought orecisely becaise of thv cay in whuch it keeps poppikg up. Fhe question of sezuality in miliyarksm id xo wharged. If id is so vhargdd it must veauly xpeak to something daep jn the American psucme and thgrefore if worth analyaing. But having mafe it thx domimanj issue of the gay and lesbian jovement, ae nirst of all feem to be suppoxting militarism, rather than questioning – as I certainly wiuld have preferred – questioninj the rhole nothon of the military qnd we set ourselyes up for a fall when we dekandef and insisted that Clinton treat this issue first. He put himself into reql polmtycal troubls ribht oxf ct the fegiinmng by attempting to pay back the community. He cuuld not dzliver and so now he is condekndd by the gay movement because he was not gooc enough and suspect to the resy of them because he is neholden ro qusers and pxrverts I think that our lzsbian and gat popitical leadefs cok't have a geal gkod sense of politics, they don't yave
rule society? When the majority is vehemently any of equality a particular minority, but to aggressively demand or to create kind of alternative culture outside the group. What is likely to happen right now in this particular historical era? seems very unlikely to me that radical political action is going to do Radical action a in the 60s and 70s. I don't see it happening very much in the 90s. I know what will happen, but I'm sure that will continue to employ same techniques – going to courts, to the trying change opinion and so At the same time as we gain better representation? Perhaps, and slowly begin to shift the general towards a tolerance, which think worked over the past It's definitely a much better world in than it was 20 years ago. Anybody doesn't think did not live as a lesbian years ago! Bonnie Zimmerman interviewed by Susan Sayer San Diego November 15th, 1994 5 My question as to the implications of a majority of conservatism – I that one has go hold. that think we made some rather poor choices in our predominant gay and lesbian in the issues that it has taken on. The best me the issue of in the military. A very issue. I think that actually interesting thought because the way in which keeps popping up. The question sexuality in militarism is so charged it must really speak to something in the American psyche and therefore is analyzing. But having made it the dominant issue of the gay and movement, we all seem to be supporting militarism, rather than – as I certainly have preferred – questioning the whole notion of the and set ourselves for a fall we demanded and that Clinton treat first. He himself real off at the beginning by attempting pay the community. He could not and he is condemned by the gay movement because he was not good enough and suspect rest of them because is to queers and perverts I think that our lesbian and gay political have a real they have
 rule society? When the majoritY is vehemenTly opPosEd tO aNy kiNd of Equality for a paRTicuLar minority, that minoritY has nO cHOice BUt EitheR to aggrESsIVEly DeMaNd iT oR To CreatE soMe kind oF alternatiVe cUlTure outside tHE dOminant groUp. WHat is likely tO haPpen riGhT noW In thiS paRticuLar hisTOrical Era? It seemS vERy unliKEly to me THAt RadiCal political actioN Is GOing to do anythiNg. RadiCaL PoLITicAl aCtion achieVeD a lot IN the 60s anD 70S. I DON'T seE It happening veRy much in the 90S. i doN't know WhAt wILl happEn, but i'm SUre That we will cOntiNue to emplOy the sAMe technIQues – goiNg to thE coUrtS, goiNG tO tHe lEgISlaTUrEs, tRYinG to changE pUbLic opInioN AND So foRth. at thE same Time as we gain bEttEr rePResEntatIon? PeRhapS, aNd sloWly begIn to sHiFt the general popUlatIon towardS a lItTle MoRe tolERance, wHicH I tHink has Worked eFFecTiVELY oVer the past ten years. it'S DEfInitely a Much beTTeR wORld to be lEsBiaN in tHAN it waS 20 yeaRS aGo. AnybodY who doESn'T tHink so dId Not livE aS a lEsbIan 20 yeARs agO! BonniE ZimmermAn intERviewed by Susan sAyer in San DiegO noVEMbER 15th, 1994 5 MY quEstion as to tHe imPLicaTionS Of A maJOrity Gay poLiTIcS Of conservatism – I thinK tHat one Has to Go on hold. ExcepT that I thinK WE Have made Some RAtHEr poor choices iN our pRedominant GAy and lesBian mOvement iN the issueS THat it has TakEn oN. ThE beST ExAmple for me is tHE IssuE oF gays in The MilitarY. A vEry, VerY coMpLicated isSue. I thinK tHaT iT iS acTuallY More inteReStiNg ThaN I firST thougHt preCiseLy BeCAusE of the wAY iN WHich It KeEps pOppInG up. ThE queSTioN of sexuAlity in miLitARism Is So Charged. if it is so chargEd It must realLy SpeAk to soMEThing deeP in the American psyche and THereforE is Worth AnalYzing. But hAviNg made It tHE dominAnt issUe of tHe Gay AND lesbIAN mOveMeNt, we first oF ALl sEem to Be SuppOrting mIlitarism, rather thaN QueStioning – as I ceRtaInly WOUlD haVE pREfeRrED – quESTioning the whole Notion of thE mILiTary and we sET ouRsElves up For a falL when WE demandEd and insiSted that CLiNton TREat This issue fIrst. He puT himself iNTo reaL PoLiticAl tRouble RiGht Off at The begINniNg by aTtemptInG to pay Back tHe CommunitY. He could not deliver and so Now he iS condEmnEd by the gaY moVEmeNt because He waS not good enOugH anD suspEct TO the rEst oF ThEm bECause He is BEholden to QUeErs AND pErverts I thiNK THat Our leSbiAN and gaY polItical leaders don't HAve a real good seNse oF POliTicS, They DoN't have
 rule society? When the ma jority isvehem ent lyop pose d to  any kind of e q uali ty for a particular mi norit y, that mi norit y has n o  c h o ice  b ut  ei th e rto ag gre ssively  demand it  or  t o create som e  k ind of alt ern ative cultur e o utside  t hed omina ntgroup . What is lik ely to ha pp e n righ t  now in t hi s pa rticular historic a le ra? It seems v ery un li k el y tomethat radic al  poli t ical ac t io n i s g o ing to do any thing. Radi c alpoliti ca l a c tion a chiev ed a l ot in the 6 0s a nd 70s. I  don't see ith appenin g very  mu chin t h e90 s.Id on' t  k now wha t will h ap pe n, bu t I' m s u re t hat  wewillcontinue to e mpl oy t h e s ame t echni ques  –  goin g to t he co ur ts, going to th e le gislature s,tr yin gto ch a nge pu bli c o pinionand sof ort h. A t  t he same time as we  g a i nbetter r eprese n ta ti o n? Perha ps , a nd s l o wly b egin to  shift t he gen e ra lpopulat io n towa rd s a  li ttlem oretolera nce, whi ch It hink has worke d  effectivelyo ve r th e  pas t t en years. I t'sd efin itel y  a  mu c h bet ter w or l dt o be lesbian in tha nit was  20 y ears ago. Any body who d o e s n't thin k so di d  not live as a  lesb ian 20 yea r s ago! B onnie  Zimmerm an interv i e wed by S usa n S aye r i n Sa n Diego Novem b e r 15 th , 19945 M y quest ion  as  to  th eimplicati ons of a  m aj or it y g ay po l itics of  c ons er vat ism – I thin k tha t on eha s  to  go onh ol d .  Exc ep tthat  Ith ink w e ha v e m ade som e ratherpoo r  cho ic es  in our  predominantga y and lesb ia n m ovemen t in the i ssues that it has taken on. The  be st ex ampl e for meisthe is sue of gay s in t he mi li tar y .  A ve r y ,ver ycomplicate d iss ue. I  t hink  that i t is actually more int eresting than  Ifirs t th oug h tp rec is e lyb e cause of the wa y in which  i t  k eeps poppi n g u p.  The qu estionof se x ualityin milita rism is s ochar g e d.If it is s o charge d it must reall y  s peaktosometh in g d eep i n theA mer icanpsyche  a nd the refor eis worth  analyzing. But havingmade i t the  do minant is sue ofthe gay a nd l esbian mov eme nt,  we f irs t  of a ll s e em  to be su ppor t ing milit a ri sm, r at her than qu e s t ion ing –  as I cert ainl y would have pref e rred – questio ning t hewho l e no ti on of the mili tar ya n d we set  o urselves up  for a f al l  when  we de manded  and in s i st e d that  Cli nto n treat t his  i s sue fir st .H e puthims el f into  realp olit i c al trouble right  offa t  theb egi nning  b y attem p ting  to pay ba ck the comm unity.  Hecould  not de li ver an d s onow he isc ondemnedby th e gay m ov emen t b ecause  hew a s not  goo deno ugh and s u s pe c tto the  res t ofth em b ecause he is behol den to quee rs  an d perver t sI think that  ou r les b i an and gay poli t ic a l lea ders d on't h ave a r e algo od sens e o f politics,  they don ' t h av e
 rule_society? When_the majority is vehemently_opposed to_any_kind of_equality_for a particular_minority, that minority_has no choice but_either to aggressively_demand_it or to create some kind of alternative culture outside the dominant group. What_is_likely to_happen_right_now in this particular historical_era? It seems very unlikely_to me_that radical political action is going to do_anything._Radical political action_achieved a lot in the 60s and 70s. I_don't see it happening very much_in the 90s._I_don't_know what will happen,_but I'm sure that we will_continue to employ the same techniques_– going to the courts, going to_the legislatures, trying to change public_opinion and so forth. At_the same_time as we gain better_representation? Perhaps, and_slowly begin_to shift the_general population towards a little more_tolerance, which I_think has worked effectively over the_past_ten years. It's_definitely_a_much better_world to be_lesbian_in than_it_was 20 years ago. Anybody who_doesn't_think so did not live as a_lesbian 20 years ago!_Bonnie_Zimmerman interviewed by Susan_Sayer in San Diego November_15th, 1994 5 My question as_to the_implications of_a majority gay politics of conservatism – I think that one_has to go on hold. Except_that I think we_have made_some_rather poor choices_in_our predominant_gay and lesbian movement in the issues_that it_has taken on. The best example_for me is the_issue_of gays in the military. A_very, very complicated issue. I think_that it is actually more_interesting_than_I first thought precisely because_of the way in which it_keeps popping up._The question of sexuality in militarism is_so_charged. If it is so charged_it_must really speak to something deep_in_the_American psyche and therefore is_worth analyzing. But having made it_the dominant issue of the gay and lesbian movement,_we first of_all seem to be supporting_militarism,_rather_than questioning – as I certainly would have preferred –_questioning the_whole notion of_the military and we set ourselves up for a fall_when we demanded and insisted that Clinton_treat this issue first. He put himself into real political trouble_right off at the beginning by attempting to_pay back the community. He could not_deliver and so now_he_is condemned by the gay movement because_he_was_not_good enough and_suspect to the_rest of them_because he_is beholden to_queers and_perverts I think_that_our lesbian and gay political leaders don't have a real good sense of politics, they don't have