, MA: Blackwell, 1993). Bonnie Zimmerman interviewed by Susan Sayer in San Diego November 15th, 1994 2 "who employ the metaphor-seeking imagination?"5 (1992, 10). I would say that to the extent that Lesbian Nation was a literary strategy, a metaphor, it worked. Problems arose when it became an attempt to create a practical reality. Questions like practical material choices, how we live our lives in the real world, become tied up with the notions of community and nation. There were attempts to make it a practical objective, to create communities of women, country communes, urban collectives etc, but it always has had its potency primarily as a metaphor, a vision. I suppose that's a natural way of thinking as a literary critic – in metaphors. Language can be stronger than reality in some ways. At the 1994 Australian Lesbian Confest, lesbian transsexuals – some of whom had been members of the Brisbane organising collective – were ordered out when the conference began. Currently, there are heated debates about whether lesbian transsexuals are to be included or excluded as members of the Lesbian Space Project in Sydney. Well, I think that it's become so clear now that there are certain rules about inclusion and exclusion at lesbian gatherings and conferences, but it continues to be a point of considerable struggle and conflict and particularly now – I'm perhaps anticipating what we're going to be talking about – as lesbian is being redefined as part of an umbrella identity or concept called 'queer,' that nobody should be excluded and it becomes to me very questionable as to how you can ever talk about lesbian anything. So I think in some ways the issue has been resolved and in other ways it has been opened up again in new terms. You express interest in the notion that lesbian textual practices create (or lesbian readers perceive) a narrative space in which writer and reader, or writer and assumed audience, or female character, come together in relationship 5 Bonnie Zimmerman, "Lesbians Like This and That: Some Notes on Lesbian Criticism for the Nineties." Sally Munt. Ed., New Lesbian Criticism: Literary and defined as lesbian (1993, 10). Women, however, continue to articulate political positions which could be identified on what Adrienne Rich defined in 1983 as a lesbian continuum. Furthermore you make the point that current lesbian criticism stands at an intersection between lesbian separatism and reconstruction (1993, 3). Is it therefore possible to speak of a narrative space
, MA: Blackwell, 1993). Bonnie Zimmerman interviewed by Susan Sayer in San Diego November 15th, 1994 2 " who employ the metaphor - seeking imagination?"5 (1992, 10). I would say that to the extent that Lesbian Nation was a literary scheme, a metaphor, it bring. Problems arose when it become an attack to create a practical reality. motion like practical material choice, how we live our lives in the veridical world, become tied up with the notion of community and nation. There were attempts to make it a hardheaded objective, to create communities of womanhood, country communes, urban collectives etc, but it always has have its potency primarily as a metaphor, a vision. I suppose that's a natural direction of thinking as a literary critic – in metaphors. Language can be stronger than reality in some ways. At the 1994 Australian Lesbian Confest, lesbian transsexuals – some of whom had been members of the Brisbane organising collective – were ordered out when the conference began. Currently, there are heated debates about whether lesbian transsexuals are to be include or excluded as members of the Lesbian Space Project in Sydney. Well, I intend that it's become therefore clear now that there are sealed rules about inclusion body and exclusion at lesbian gatherings and conferences, but it continue to be a point of considerable struggle and conflict and particularly now – I'm perhaps anticipating what we're going to be talking about – as lesbian is being redefined as part of an umbrella identity or concept bid' queer,' that nobody should be eject and it becomes to me very questionable as to how you can ever talk about lesbian anything. So I think in some way the issue has been resolved and in other way it has been opened up again in new terms. You express pastime in the notion that lesbian textual practice create (or lesbian reader perceive) a narrative space in which writer and subscriber, or writer and assumed hearing, or female character, do together in relationship 5 Bonnie Zimmerman, " Lesbians Like This and That: Some Notes on Lesbian Criticism for the Nineties. " Sally Munt. Ed. , New Lesbian Criticism: Literary and defined as lesbian (1993, 10). Women, however, cover to articulate political positions which could be identified on what Adrienne Rich defined in 1983 as a lesbian continuum. Furthermore you make the point that current lesbian criticism stands at an intersection between lesbian separatism and reconstruction (1993, 3). Is it consequently possible to speak of a narrative outer space
, MA: Blackwell, 1993). Bonnie Zimmevman interviewed by Susen Sayed in San Diego November 15th, 1994 2 "who emppot the metaphor-seeking imagivation?"5 (1992, 10). P would sqy tiat to the extenv that Lcfbiah Natnoi was a literari strategy, a metaphor, it wmryeb. Problems arose when it became an aetempt yo create a pracjical wealjny. Questions like practical matsrial cioices, how we love our lives in the real aorlf, become tied up wlth the notuons if community and nation. There were attempts to make it a practicau objzctive, to ctzqte wommunities of wjmen, country communev, urban collectives ebc, buv it always has had its pmtency primarily af a metapvox, a vision. I suppose rhqt's a natgral qay of tiiniing ad a literary dritic – in netaphors. Language vag be stronger fhan rqajity in some ways. At the 1994 Australian Levbizn Confest, lesbian tranwsexuals – some of whol had beeg members of the Brisbane organising collective – fere kfdexcq iuh when the conference began. Currently, there aws nested debates anout whether lesbisn ttwnssexuals arg to be indluded or excluded as memfers if the Lefbiam Space Project in Sydney. Wwll, I think nhat it's become so clecr now that chere sre crrtain rules about inclbsion znd exclusiln at lesgkan gatherings avd bonfarences, but it continues tj be a pomnt oy considdrabke strtggle and fonfllwt and particularlj now – H'm perhaps anticipating what we're going to be talking anogt – as lesbnan is being redefiged as part of an umbxella kdentity og concept called 'queqr,' that nobodf should be eecluded agd ir bexomes tu me very questoonable as to how yiu can ever talk anout ussbian anything. So I think in somr wxys tje ifvue has been resulvdc and in othtx wcyr it has been opened up dgaih in new terms. You ewpress injerest in the notion tnat lesbian textuap prartices creaye (jr lesbian readers perceive) a harrative spwce in which wriber wnd reader, or writer and assumed audience, or femaoe character, come rogether in relatiousmip 5 Bonnie Vimmerian, "Lesbidns Like This and Thqt: Some Notes on Kesbian Criticism for the Nhnetifs." Sally Munt. Ed., New Lesbian Criticism: Literary and defined as lesbian (1993, 10). Qomen, iorever, contihue yo arnicblace polieicap positions which could be identified on what Adcienne Ricv befined in 1983 as a lesbian contonjum. Furthermote you make the point that current lesbian criticism stands at an intersection between lexbian separatjsm and reronstruction (1993, 3). Is it thereyore pissible to dpeak of a nafrayiye space
, MA: Blackwell, 1993). Bonnie Zimmerman interviewed Sayer San Diego 15th, 1994 2 (1992, I would say to the extent Lesbian Nation was a literary strategy, metaphor, it worked. Problems arose when it became an attempt to create a reality. Questions like practical material choices, how we live our lives in the world, tied with notions of community and nation. There were attempts to make it a practical objective, to create of women, country communes, urban collectives etc, but always has had its primarily as a metaphor, a I that's a way thinking a literary critic in metaphors. Language can be stronger than reality in some ways. At the 1994 Australian Lesbian Confest, transsexuals – whom had members the organising collective – out when the conference began. Currently, debates about whether lesbian transsexuals are to be or excluded members of the Lesbian Space Project Sydney. Well, I think that it's become so now that there are certain rules about inclusion and exclusion at lesbian gatherings and conferences, continues to be a of considerable struggle conflict particularly – perhaps anticipating we're going to be talking about – as lesbian is being as part of an umbrella identity or concept called 'queer,' should excluded and it to me very questionable to you can ever talk anything. I ways issue been resolved and in ways it has been opened again in new terms. notion that lesbian textual practices create (or lesbian perceive) a narrative space in which writer reader, or writer and assumed audience, or female character, come together in 5 Bonnie Like This and That: Some Notes on Lesbian for the Nineties." Sally Ed., New Lesbian Criticism: Literary and defined as lesbian 10). however, continue articulate political positions could be identified what Adrienne Rich 1983 as lesbian Furthermore point that current lesbian criticism stands an between lesbian separatism and reconstruction 3). therefore possible to speak of a narrative space
, MA: Blackwell, 1993). Bonnie ZimmermaN interviewEd by SUsaN SaYeR in SAn DiEgo November 15th, 1994 2 "wHO empLoy the metaphor-seeking iMaginAtIOn?"5 (1992, 10). I wOUlD say tHat to thE ExTENt tHaT LEsbIaN naTion wAs a LiterarY strategy, a MetApHor, it worked. PRObLems arose wHen It became an atTemPt to crEaTe a PRactiCal RealiTy. QuesTIons liKe practicAl MAteriaL Choices, HOW wE livE our lives in the reaL WoRLd, become tied up With thE nOTiONS of ComMunity and nAtIon. ThERe were aTTeMPTS to MAke it a practicAl objective, TO crEate coMmUniTIes of wOmen, cOuNTry Communes, urbAn coLlectives Etc, but IT always HAs had itS potenCy pRimArilY As A mEtaPhOR, a vISiOn. I SUppOse that's A nAtUral wAy of THINKing As a LiteRary cRitic – in metaphOrs. langUAge Can be StronGer tHaN realIty in sOme waYs. at the 1994 Australian lesbIan ConfesT, leSbIan TrAnsseXUals – soMe oF whOm had beEn membeRS of ThE bRIsBane organising collEcTIVe – Were ordeRed out WHeN tHE confereNcE beGan. CURRentlY, theRE aRe heated DebateS AbOuT whetheR lEsbian TrAnsSexUals aRE to bE incluDed or excLuded AS members of the LESbian Space ProJEcT IN SYDney. welL, I think that It's bECome So clEAr Now THat thEre arE cERtAIn rules about inclusiOn And excLusioN at lesbian gatHerings and CONFerences, But iT CoNTinues to be a poiNt of cOnsiderablE Struggle And coNflict anD particulARLy now – I'm pErhAps AntIciPATiNg what we're goiNG To be TaLking abOut – As lesbiAn iS beIng RedEfIned as parT of an umbReLlA iDeNtiTy or cONcept calLeD 'quEeR,' thAt nobODy shouLd be eXcluDeD aND it Becomes TO mE VEry qUeStIonaBle As To how You cAN evEr talk aBout lesbiAn aNYthiNg. so i think iN some ways the iSsUe has been rEsOlvEd and iN OTher ways It has been opened up again iN New termS. YoU exprEss iNterest in The Notion ThaT LesbiaN textuAl praCtIceS CReate (OR LeSbiAn Readers perCEIve) A narrAtIve sPace in wHich writer and readeR, Or wRiter and assumEd aUdieNCE, oR feMAlE ChaRaCTer, COMe together in relAtionship 5 BOnNIe zimmerman, "LESbiAnS Like ThIs and ThAt: SomE notes on lesbian CrIticism foR tHe NiNETieS." Sally Munt. ed., New LesBian CritiCIsm: LiTErAry anD deFined aS lEsbIan (1993, 10). WoMen, howEVer, ContiNue to aRtIculatE poliTiCal positIons which could be identifIed on wHat AdRieNne Rich deFinED in 1983 As a lesbiaN conTinuum. FurtHerMorE you mAke THe poiNt thAT cUrrENt lesBian CRiticism sTAnDs aT AN iNtersection BETWeeN lesbIan SEparatIsm aNd reconstruction (1993, 3). IS It therefore posSiblE TO spEak OF a naRrAtive space
, MA: Blackwell, 1993). Bo nnie Zimme rmanint erv ie wedby S usan Sayer inS an D iego November 15th, 19 94 2"w h o em p lo y the  metaph o r- s e eki ng  i mag in a ti on?"5  (1 992, 10 ). I would  sa ythat to thee xt ent that L esb ian Nation w asa lite ra rys trate gy,  a me taphor ,  it wo rked. Pro bl e ms aro s e wheni t  b ecam e an attempt to c r ea t e a practicalrealit y. Qu e s tio nslike pract ic al ma t erial c h oi c e s , h o w we live our  lives in t h e r eal wo rl d,b ecometiedup wit h the notio ns o f communi ty and nation. There w ere at tem pts  tom ak eitap rac t ic alo bje ctive, t ocr eatecomm u n i t iesofwome n, co untry commune s,urba n  co llect ivesetc,  b ut it  alway s has  h ad its potencyprim arily asa m et aph or , a v i sion.I s upp ose tha t's a n a tur al w a yof thinking as a l it e r ar y critic  – inm et ap h ors. Lan gu age  can b e str onge r  t han real ity in so me  ways.At  the 1 99 4 A ust ralia n  Les bian C onfest,lesbi a n transsexuals – some of who m  h a d  b e en m emb ers of theBris b aneorga n is ing colle ctive  – we r e ordered out whenth e conf erenc e began. Curr ently, the r e are heat ed d e ba t es about wheth er le sbian tran s sexualsare t o be inc luded ore x cluded a s m emb ers  of t he  Lesbian Spac e Proj ec t in Sy dne y. Well , I  th ink  th at  it's bec ome so c le ar  n ow  th at th e re are c er tai nrul es ab o ut inc lusio n an dex c lus ion atl es b i an g at he ring s a nd  conf eren c es,  but it  continue s t o  beapo int ofconsiderablest ruggle and  c onf lict a n d  particu larly now – I'm perhaps anticip ati ng wh at w e're goin g t o be t alk i ng abo ut – a s les bi ani s  bein g re def in ed as part o f a n umb re llaidentit y or concept calle d  'q ueer,' that n obo dy s h o ul d b e  e x clu de d  an d it becomes to m e very que st i on able as to how  y ou canever ta lk ab o ut lesb ian anyth ing. So I  t hink i n s ome ways t he issue  has been resol v ed  andinotherwa ysit ha s been ope ned u p agai nin new  term s.  You exp ress interest in the no tion t hat l esb ian textu alp rac tices cre ate(or lesbia n r ead ers p erc e ive)a na r ra tiv e  spac e in which wri t er  an d re ader, or wr i t e r a nd as sum e d audi ence , or female chara c ter, come toge ther i n r ela t ions hi p 5 Bonnie Zim mer ma n ,  "Lesbia ns  Like Thisand That :S ome N otes o n Lesb ian Cri t i ci s m fortheNin eties." S all yM unt. Ed .,  N e w Lesb ianCr iticis m: Lit e rary a nd defined as le sbian ( 1993, 10) . Wom en , howev e r, c ontinue to  articulate  polit ical  posi tions w hi ch cou ldbe  identifie d  on whatAdrie nne Ric hdefi ned  in 19 83 a s a les bian  c ont inuum. Fu r t he r mo re you  mak e the  p oint  that cur r ent lesb ian critici sm  st a n ds ata ni n tersection  be tween l esbian sep a rati s ma nd re constr uction  (1993, 3).  I s it th ere f o re possib le to spe a k o fa na rrativesp ace
, MA:_Blackwell, 1993)._Bonnie Zimmerman interviewed by_Susan Sayer_in_San Diego_November_15th, 1994 2_"who employ the_metaphor-seeking imagination?"5 (1992, 10)._I would say_that_to the extent that Lesbian Nation was a literary strategy, a metaphor, it worked._Problems_arose when_it_became_an attempt to create a_practical reality. Questions like practical_material choices,_how we live our lives in the real_world,_become tied up_with the notions of community and nation. There were_attempts to make it a practical_objective, to create_communities_of_women, country communes, urban_collectives etc, but it always has_had its potency primarily as a_metaphor, a vision. I suppose that's a_natural way of thinking as a_literary critic – in metaphors._Language can_be stronger than reality in_some ways. At_the 1994_Australian Lesbian Confest,_lesbian transsexuals – some of whom_had been members_of the Brisbane organising collective –_were_ordered out when_the_conference_began. Currently,_there are heated_debates_about whether_lesbian_transsexuals are to be included or_excluded_as members of the Lesbian Space Project_in Sydney. Well, I_think_that it's become so_clear now that there are_certain rules about inclusion and exclusion_at lesbian_gatherings and_conferences, but it continues to be a point of considerable struggle_and conflict and particularly now –_I'm perhaps anticipating what_we're going_to_be talking about_–_as lesbian_is being redefined as part of an_umbrella identity_or concept called 'queer,' that nobody_should be excluded and_it_becomes to me very questionable as_to how you can ever talk_about lesbian anything. So I_think_in_some ways the issue has_been resolved and in other ways_it has been_opened up again in new terms. You_express_interest in the notion that lesbian_textual_practices create (or lesbian readers perceive)_a_narrative_space in which writer and_reader, or writer and assumed audience,_or female character, come together in relationship 5 Bonnie_Zimmerman, "Lesbians Like_This and That: Some Notes_on_Lesbian_Criticism for the Nineties." Sally Munt. Ed., New Lesbian Criticism:_Literary and_defined as lesbian_(1993, 10). Women, however, continue to articulate political positions which_could be identified on what Adrienne Rich_defined in 1983 as a lesbian continuum. Furthermore you make the_point that current lesbian criticism stands at an_intersection between lesbian separatism and reconstruction (1993,_3). Is it therefore_possible_to speak of a narrative space