 may not know the details) nearly the same, but targets
the JVM and Jython does not have GIL as a result. What's the key difference
between LLVM and JVM in this regard?

~~~
cconstantine
The simple answer is that LLVM does not come with a garbage collection system,
and the JVM does.

~~~
sandGorgon
_snigger_ \- first clojure and now jython. And the news about high profile
websites moving to Lift/Scala from <whatever>.

Is the JVM the answer to life, the universe and everything?

~~~
fauigerzigerk
Well, the JVM is a high quality, mature, very fast, cross platform runtime.
However, I'm always slightly concerned that letting the JVM in through the
front door might open the back door to the kind of SOP (Soviet Oriented
Programming) exemplified by Java EE. JSR hell is lurking behind the most
innocent-looking serverside library :-)

~~~
smikhanov
I can't see how JSR argument is applicable here.

Java suffers from JSR approval hell just because it tries to stadardize
everything. This is the requirement to perform well in the enterprise world,
along with the programmers certification mechanism and inclusion of the top
industry players in the standards approval.

If your language is just a hackers' toy (Clojure and Scala are exactly that)
then why do you care about JSRs in the first place? The JSRs don't mention JVM
usually, only the libraries or Java language extensions.

~~~
sandGorgon
now if only java had a package manager (not maven) - something like "gem" for
jar files.

That would be golden.

~~~
bokchoi
There is maven. Oh, and jpackage for rpm. And debian creates packages for
quite a few jars.

Hopefully this will get easier in Java 7 with the modularity work in Project
Jigsaw: <http://openjdk.java.net/projects/jigsaw/>

------
axod
How about teaching programmers to program without using threads?

edit: sure downmod me. It's crazy talk! How could programmers do without
threads and
may not know the details) nearly the same, but target 
 the JVM and Jython does not take GIL as a result. What's the key remainder 
 between LLVM and JVM in this attentiveness? 

 ~~~ 
 cconstantine 
 The simple answer is that LLVM does not fall with a drivel collection system, 
 and the JVM does. 

 ~~~ 
 sandGorgon 
 _ snigger _ \- first clojure and now jython. And the newsworthiness about high profile 
 web site moving to Lift / Scala from < whatever >. 

 Is the JVM the answer to life, the universe and everything? 

 ~~~ 
 fauigerzigerk 
 Well, the JVM is a high quality, mature, very fast, traverse platform runtime. 
 However, I'm always slightly implicated that letting the JVM in through the 
 front door might unfold the back door to the kind of SOP (Soviet Oriented 
 Programming) exemplify by Java EE. JSR hell is lurking behind the most 
 innocent - looking serverside library :-) 

 ~~~ 
 smikhanov 
 I can't see how JSR controversy is applicable here. 

 Java suffers from JSR approval hell just because it tries to stadardize 
 everything. This is the requirement to perform well in the enterprise world, 
 along with the programmers certification mechanism and inclusion of the top 
 industry players in the standards approval. 

 If your language is just a hacker' toy (Clojure and Scala are exactly that) 
 then why do you worry about JSRs in the first place? The JSRs don't mention JVM 
 usually, merely the libraries or Java language extensions. 

 ~~~ 
 sandGorgon 
 now if merely java had a package manager (not maven) - something like " gem " for 
 jar files. 

 That would be gold. 

 ~~~ 
 bokchoi 
 There is maven. Oh, and jpackage for rpm. And debian creates packages for 
 quite a few jolt. 

 Hopefully this will get easy in Java 7 with the modularity workplace in Project 
 Jigsaw: < http://openjdk.java.net/projects/jigsaw/ > 

 ------ 
 axod 
 How about teaching programmers to program without using screw thread? 

 edit: sure downmod me. It's crazy talk! How could programmers do without 
 threads and
 maj not know the details) ntarly the same, buj rargetv
the JBM and Jhthon does not have GIL as a rwsult. What's the key differevce
betweej LLVM abd JTM in this regarv?

~~~
dconstakcine
Tgc sim'lx answer is thaj LLVM does tot come with d eaxbage collection system,
and the JVM djes.

~~~
sandBoggon
_snigger_ \- fyrst slojhge and now jython. And the news zbout hpgh profile
websitrs moving to Lift/Scala frol <whwtever>.

Is the JVM tje answer ti lisw, the univerre and evegvthing?

~~~
fauiggrzigerk
Well, the JVM is a high qjalitv, mature, vetv fadj, cross plathorm rlntime.
However, I'm alwafs sligntly concerned thet lwtting the JVM in thrmugh the
front door might opan the back door to tye kitd ox SOO (Soxieu Ociehted
Prlgremming) exemllified by Hava EE. JSR hell is ltgling behind fhe moft
ynnocent-looking serverside library :-)

~~~
smikvankv
I can't see how JSR artument is applicable jere.

Java fuffers from JSR approval hell just because it trhes tk stceardixw
egerything. This is the requirement to perform rslk pn the enterprise world,
along wltn the programmgrs cercjfjcation mechanism wnd incjusiob of the uop
incustry players in the standqrds approvaj.

Uf your language id just a haekers' joy (Clpjure and Scala are exaetly tgat)
then why do you czfe about JSRs in thv fisst plact? The JSRs don't megtion JVM
nsualky, only the librawies or Jaga lakcuage extensions.

~~~
sajdGoryon
nof if only uava had a package manager (not maven) - somethimg line "gem" fjr
jar files.

That wotld be golden.

~~~
bpkchoi
Tkere ir maven. Oh, and jpeckage for r[m. And debian freates packeges for
qtite a fww jars.

Fupefully this eill get vafier in Java 7 with the moahlarity work in Priject
Jigsaw: <httl://opdnjqk.uata.net/[sojects/jigsaf/>

------
axoa
Hod aboug teaching iroeramkers to program withmut hsing threads?

edit: xuve downmoe me. It's crazy talk! Hpw could programmegs do wivhout
tnrewds and
may not know the details) nearly the targets JVM and does not have the difference between LLVM JVM in this ~~~ cconstantine The simple answer is LLVM does not come with a garbage collection system, and the JVM does. sandGorgon _snigger_ \- first clojure and now jython. And the news about high websites to from Is the JVM the answer to life, the universe and everything? ~~~ fauigerzigerk Well, the JVM a high quality, mature, very fast, cross platform However, I'm always slightly that letting the JVM in the door might the door the kind of (Soviet Oriented Programming) exemplified by Java EE. JSR hell is lurking behind the most innocent-looking serverside library ~~~ smikhanov see how argument applicable Java suffers from hell just because it tries to is the requirement to perform well in the world, along the programmers certification mechanism and inclusion the top industry players in the standards approval. your language is just a hackers' toy (Clojure and Scala are exactly that) then why care about JSRs in first place? The don't JVM only libraries or language extensions. ~~~ sandGorgon now if only java had a package (not maven) - something like "gem" for jar files. That golden. bokchoi There is Oh, and jpackage for And creates packages for quite jars. this in 7 the modularity work in Jigsaw: <http://openjdk.java.net/projects/jigsaw/> ------ axod How teaching programmers to program downmod me. It's crazy talk! How could programmers without threads and
 may not know the details) nearlY the same, buT targEts
The jVm and jythOn does not have Gil as a Result. What's the key diffeRence
BeTWeen llVm and JvM in thiS ReGARd?

~~~
cCoNsTanTiNE
THe simPle Answer iS that LLVM dOes NoT come with a gaRBaGe collectiOn sYstem,
and the JvM dOes.

~~~
sanDGOrgON
_snigGer_ \- First ClojurE And now Jython. And ThE News abOUt high pROFiLe
weBsites moving to LifT/scALa from <whatever>.

is the JvM THe ANSweR to Life, the uniVeRse anD EverythINg?

~~~
FAUIgeRZigerk
Well, the jVM is a high qUAliTy, matuRe, VerY Fast, crOss plAtFOrm Runtime.
HoweVer, I'M always slIghtly COncerneD That letTing thE JVm in ThroUGh ThE
frOnT DooR MiGht OPen The back dOoR tO the kInd oF sop (soviEt ORienTed
PrOgramming) exemPliFied BY JaVa EE. JsR helL is lUrKing bEhind tHe mosT
iNnocent-looking sErveRside librAry :-)

~~~
SmIkhAnOv
I caN'T see hoW JSr arGument iS applicABle HeRE.

jAvA suffers from JSR appRoVAL hEll just bEcause IT tRiES to stadaRdIze
EverYTHing. THis iS ThE requireMent to PErFoRm well iN tHe enteRpRisE woRld,
alONg wiTh the pRogrammeRs cerTIfication mechaNIsm and inclusiON oF THe TOp
inDusTry players iN the STandArds APpRovAL.

If yoUr lanGuAGe IS just a hackers' toy (CloJuRe and SCala aRe exactly that)
Then why do yOU CAre about jSRs IN tHE first place? The jSRs dOn't mention jvM
usuallY, only The libraRies or JavA LAnguage eXteNsiOns.

~~~
SanDgOrGon
now if only jAVA had A pAckage mAnaGer (not mAveN) - soMetHinG lIke "gem" for
Jar files.

thAt WoUlD be GoldeN.

~~~
Bokchoi
THeRe iS mAveN. Oh, anD JpackaGe for Rpm. ANd DeBIan Creates PAcKAGes fOr
QuIte a Few JaRs.

HopEfulLY thIs will gEt easier iN JaVA 7 witH tHe ModularIty work in ProjEcT
Jigsaw: <httP://oPenJdk.javA.NEt/projecTs/jigsaw/>

------
axod
How about teaCHing proGraMmers To prOgram withOut Using tHreADs?

edit: Sure doWnmod Me. it's CRAzy taLK! hoW coUlD programmeRS Do wIthouT
tHreaDs and
 may not know the details)  nearly th e sam e,but  t arge ts
t he JVM and Jyt h on d oes not have GIL as aresul t. What ' sthe k ey diff e re n c e
b et we enLL V Mand J VMin this  regard?
~~~ 
c constantineT he  simple an swe r is that LL VMdoes n ot  co m e wit h a  garb age co l lectio n system, 
a n d theJ VM does . 
~ ~~
s andGorgon
_snigge r _\ - first clojur e andno w  j y t hon . A nd the new sabout high pr o fi l e web s ites moving t o Lift/Scal a  fr om <wh at eve r >.

Is  theJV M  th e answer to  lif e, the un iverse and eve r ything? 

~~~fau ige rzig e rk 
W ell ,t heJ VM  is a h igh qual it y,  matu re,v e r y  fas t,cros s pla tform runtime .
H owev e r,I'm a lways  sli gh tly c oncern ed th at  letting the JV M in  throughthe 
f ron tdoorm ight o pen  th e backdoor to the  k i n d  o f SOP (Soviet Orie nt e d 
P rogrammi ng) ex e mp li f ied by J av a E E. J S R  hell  isl ur king beh ind th e  m os t
innoc en t-look in g s erv ersid e  lib rary : -)

~~~smikh a nov
I can't se e  how JSR argu m en t is appl ica ble here.
Java suff ersf ro m J S R app roval  h e ll just because it tri es  to st adard ize
everythin g. This is t h e requir emen t  t o  perform wellin th e enterpri s e world, 
alon g with t he progra m m ers cert ifi cat ion  me c h an ism and inclu s i on o fthe top 
in dustrypla yer s i n t he  standard s approv al .
I fyou r lan g uage isju stahac kers' toy (C lojur e an dSc a laare exa c tl y that )th en w hydo  youcare abo ut JSRs  in the f irs t  pla ce ?The JSR s don't menti on  JVM
usual ly , o nly th e librarie s or Java language exte n sions.
~~ ~
san dGor gon
now i f o nly ja vah ad a p ackage  mana ge r ( n o t mav e n )- s om ething lik e "ge m" fo rjarfiles.
That would be gol d en. 

~~~
bokchoi 
Th erei s  m ave n .O h,an d  jp a c kage for rpm. A nd debiancr e at es package s  fo rquite a  few ja rs.
H opefull y this wi ll get ea si er i n Jav a 7 with t he modul arity wor k  in P r oj ect
J igs aw: <h tt p:/ /open jdk.ja v a.n et/pr ojects /j igsaw/ >

-- -- --
axodHow about teaching prog rammer s topro gram with out usi ng thread s?
edit: sure  do wnm od me . I t 's cr azyt al k!H ow co uldp rogrammer s  d o w i t ho ut
threadsa n d 
 may_not know_the details) nearly the_same, but_targets
the_JVM and_Jython_does not have_GIL as a_result. What's the key_difference
between LLVM and_JVM_in this regard?

~~~
cconstantine
The simple answer is that LLVM does not come with a garbage_collection_system,
and the_JVM_does.

~~~
sandGorgon
_snigger__\- first clojure and now_jython. And the news about_high profile
websites_moving to Lift/Scala from <whatever>.

Is the JVM the_answer_to life, the_universe and everything?

~~~
fauigerzigerk
Well, the JVM is a high quality,_mature, very fast, cross platform runtime.
However,_I'm always slightly_concerned_that_letting the JVM in_through the
front door might open the_back door to the kind of_SOP (Soviet Oriented
Programming) exemplified by Java EE._JSR hell is lurking behind the_most
innocent-looking serverside library :-)

~~~
smikhanov
I can't_see how_JSR argument is applicable here.

Java_suffers from JSR_approval hell_just because it_tries to stadardize
everything. This is the_requirement to perform_well in the enterprise world,
along with_the_programmers certification mechanism_and_inclusion_of the_top
industry players in_the_standards approval.

If_your_language is just a hackers' toy_(Clojure_and Scala are exactly that)
then why do_you care about JSRs_in_the first place? The_JSRs don't mention JVM
usually, only_the libraries or Java language extensions.

~~~
sandGorgon
now_if only_java had_a package manager (not maven) - something like "gem" for
jar files.

That_would be golden.

~~~
bokchoi
There is maven. Oh,_and jpackage for rpm._And debian_creates_packages for
quite a_few_jars.

Hopefully this_will get easier in Java 7 with_the modularity_work in Project
Jigsaw: <http://openjdk.java.net/projects/jigsaw/>

------
axod
How about teaching_programmers to program without_using_threads?

edit: sure downmod me. It's crazy_talk! How could programmers do without
threads_and