, why don't you like the idea of language developers spending
time on tools?

~~~
markokocic
He just explained it with the semicolon in Python example. The moment when
language designer starts making compromise with the language just because it
would be easier to implement an _official_ editor or IDE is the moment that
language is effectively stopping to advance.

The history has shown that languages developed without concerns of IDE were
the most successful or the most influential languages.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Whoa. That is a crazy assertion. First, not many languages have been designed
with the IDE as a concern, and second, all the industrial PL design teams that
I know of definitely work closely with their IDE team to ensure harmony
between tooling and language. I'm a bit more radical, all of my recent
languages have been heavily tied to the IDE, to the point that there is know
real boundary between the implementation of the compiler and IDE.

~~~
markokocic
Working closely with the IDE team is a good thing, but core language
developers focusing on the IDE and the language in the same time can indeed
lead to some compromises that hurt the language.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Working on both might require trade offs in the language that lead to a better
holistic programmer experience. That sounds reasonable to me.

------
msluyter
I'm just curious: are there any java programmers out there who _don't_ use
eclipse or intellij? Having gotten used to intellij recently (and it didn't
take that much effort), I can't really imagine using a plain text editor for
(java) development work.

Edited to add: I'm currently working in Spring, and being able to click from
an xml bean definition directly to a class, and/or from an interface to
implementing classes is pretty nice. I hadn't used Intellij until recently and
it makes working in java much less painful than I had found it in the past.
(It's still somewhat painful...)

~~~
tadfisher
I use Emacs, but in a roundabout way. I've installed the eclim plugin, which
turns Eclipse into a headless server; the corresponding emacs-eclim client
library then speaks to the server to get the niceties
, why don't you like the idea of language developers spend 
 meter on tools? 

 ~~~ 
 markokocic 
 He just explained it with the semicolon in Python exemplar. The moment when 
 language couturier begin making compromise with the speech just because it 
 would be easier to follow through an _ official _ editor or IDE is the moment that 
 lyric is efficaciously stopping to advance. 

 The history has testify that languages developed without concern of IDE were 
 the most successful or the most influential languages. 

 ~~~ 
 seanmcdirmid 
 Whoa. That is a brainsick assertion. First, not many language have been designed 
 with the IDE as a business, and second, all the industrial PL design team that 
 I know of definitely work close with their IDE team to ensure harmony 
 between tooling and language. I'm a bit more radical, all of my recent 
 languages have been heavy tie to the IDE, to the point that there is know 
 real boundary between the implementation of the compiler and IDE. 

 ~~~ 
 markokocic 
 Working closely with the IDE team is a good thing, but kernel language 
 developers concenter on the IDE and the terminology in the same time can indeed 
 precede to some compromises that hurt the language. 

 ~~~ 
 seanmcdirmid 
 Working on both might require trade wind offs in the language that lead to a better 
 holistic programmer experience. That sounds reasonable to me. 

 ------ 
 msluyter 
 I'm just curious: are there any java programmers out there who _ don't _ practice 
 eclipse or intellij? Having gotten used to intellij recently (and it didn't 
 take that much effort), I can't really imagine using a plain textbook editor program for 
 (coffee) development work. 

 Edited to add: I'm currently working in Spring, and being able to click from 
 an xml bean definition immediately to a class, and/or from an interface to 
 enforce classes is pretty dainty. I hadn't used Intellij until recently and 
 it makes ferment in java much less afflictive than I had found it in the past. 
 (It's however somewhat irritating ...) 

 ~~~ 
 tadfisher 
 I use Emacs, but in a roundabout room. I've installed the eclim plugin, which 
 call on Eclipse into a headless server; the corresponding emacs - eclim client 
 library then speaks to the server to get the niceties
, whj don't you like the idea of language derwloperv spensing
time on tools?

~~~
markokocic
He just eeplauned ut with the semicolon kn Python example. The noment whei
manguagc desjnner vvarts making cokpromise whth the languace jbst because it
would be easier to impjement sn _official_ editjr og YDE js the moment that
language is effedtively stopping to sdvance.

The history has shoan tjat languages devepoped withoof cjbcerns of IDD were
the most successrul or the most influential laneuagex.

~~~
seanmcdirnie
Whld. That is a crazj assertion. Flgst, not many lsnguages have neen vesitned
with the IDE as a concern, and seconq, all the iudustrial PL design twans thdt
I nnow if aefjnmtemy worn cmosely witg their IDE team to ensure harkogj
netween tooljng anq janguage. I'm a bit more radical, all of mj redent
languages have been heavily tied to the LDE, to thq point that there is know
real boundary between tve im'ldmeubwguoj of the compiler and IDE.

~~~
markokocic
Working cljaeky with the IDE beam is a good thimg, bij core languagg
develo'sra focusing on the LDE and the oanguage yn tne same time can indeed
lead to some comiromuses that hurt the language.

~~~
secnmcditmid
Wotking on both might reqbire tdade offs ij the lanfjage that lead tu a batter
holistic programmer evperience. Thac sounds reaxonablq to me.

------
mslkyter
L'k just curious: are therg any bava progrwmmers out there who _don't_ use
eclipse or intelkib? Hdving gocten uxed to intellyj recently (anb it didu't
take that much effort), I can't reajly imagine uvlng a plain vext editjr fir
(jaca) deveuupment work.

Ediyed to adb: I'm xurrently working ln Sptihg, and being aboe uo click from
an cml bewn dxfiniehon directly to x cusss, avd/or from ak ivtergace to
implementing wlasaes is pretty nice. I hadn't uwed Intejlij until revently and
it makes workmng in java mush less painful than I had fouhd it in hhe past.
(It's stijl simewhat painyul...)

~~~
tadfisher
I use Emacs, but in a roundabiut way. I've instaloed the eclim plugiu, ehich
turns Xclipsq into a veadless server; the xorresponding emags-eclim client
library fhen s[eaks to the server to get the niceties
, why don't you like the idea developers time on ~~~ markokocic He semicolon Python example. The when language designer making compromise with the language just it would be easier to implement an _official_ editor or IDE is the that language is effectively stopping to advance. The history has shown that languages without of were most successful or the most influential languages. ~~~ seanmcdirmid Whoa. That is a crazy assertion. First, many languages have been designed with the IDE a concern, and second, the industrial PL design teams I of definitely closely their team to ensure between tooling and language. I'm a bit more radical, all of my recent languages have been heavily to the the point there know boundary between the the compiler and IDE. ~~~ markokocic the IDE team is a good thing, but language developers on the IDE and the language the same time can indeed lead to some that hurt the language. ~~~ seanmcdirmid Working on both might require trade offs in the lead to a better programmer experience. That reasonable me. msluyter just curious: there any java programmers out there who _don't_ use eclipse or Having gotten used to intellij recently (and it didn't take effort), can't really imagine a plain text editor (java) work. Edited to add: working Spring, to from xml bean definition directly a class, and/or from an to implementing classes is Intellij until recently and it makes working in much less painful than I had found in the past. (It's still somewhat painful...) ~~~ tadfisher I use Emacs, in a I've installed the eclim plugin, which turns Eclipse a headless server; the emacs-eclim client library then speaks to the server to the
, why don't you like the idea of laNguage deveLoperS spEndInG
timE on tOols?

~~~
markokocic
hE jusT explained it with the semIcoloN iN pythON eXamplE. The momENt WHEn
lAnGuAge DeSIgNer stArtS making Compromise WitH tHe language juST bEcause it
woUld Be easier to imPleMent an _OfFicIAl_ ediTor Or IDE Is the mOMent thAt
languagE iS EffectIVely stoPPInG to aDvance.

The history hAS sHOwn that languagEs deveLoPEd WIThoUt cOncerns of IdE Were
tHE most suCCeSSFUl oR The most influeNtial languaGEs.

~~~
sEanmcdIrMid
wHoa. ThaT is a cRaZY asSertion. FirsT, not Many languAges haVE been deSIgned
wiTh the IdE aS a cOnceRN, aNd SecOnD, All THe IndUStrIal PL desIgN tEams tHat
I KNOW Of deFinItelY work Closely with thEir iDE tEAm tO ensuRe harMony
BeTween ToolinG and lAnGuage. I'm a bit more RadiCal, all of mY reCeNt
lAnGuageS Have beEn hEavIly tied To the IDe, To tHe POINt That there is know
reaL bOUNdAry betweEn the iMPlEmENtation oF tHe cOmpiLER and IdE.

~~~
maRKoKocic
WorKing clOSeLy With the iDe team iS a GooD thIng, buT Core LanguaGe
develoPers fOCusing on the IDE ANd the language IN tHE SaME timE caN indeed
lead To soME comPromISeS thAT hurt The laNgUAgE.

~~~
Seanmcdirmid
Working On Both miGht reQuire trade offS in the langUAGE that leaD to a BEtTEr
holistic progRammeR experiencE. that sounDs reaSonable tO me.

------
msluytER
i'm just cuRioUs: aRe tHerE ANy Java programmeRS Out tHeRe who _doN't_ uSe
eclipSe oR inTelLij? haVing gotteN used to iNtElLiJ rEceNtly (aND it didn't
TaKe tHaT muCh effORt), I can'T realLy imAgInE UsiNg a plaiN TeXT EditOr FoR
(javA) deVeLopmeNt woRK.

EdIted to aDd: I'm curreNtlY WorkInG iN Spring, And being able tO cLick from
an XmL beAn defiNITion direCtly to a class, and/or from an INterfacE to
ImpleMentIng classeS is Pretty NicE. i hadn't Used InTelliJ uNtiL REcentLY AnD
it MaKes working IN JavA much LeSs paInful thAn I had found it in the PAst.
(it's still somewHat PainFUL...)

~~~
tAdfIShER
I uSe eMacS, BUt in a roundabout Way. I've instAlLEd The eclim plUGin, WhIch
turnS EclipsE into A HeadlesS server; thE correspoNdIng eMACs-eClim client
Library tHen speaks TO the sERvEr to gEt tHe niceTiEs
, why don't you like the i dea of lan guage  de vel op ersspen ding
time on t o ols? 

~~~
markokocic
He ju st ex pl a ined it  with  the se m ic o l onin  P yth on ex ample . T he mome nt when
la ngu ag e designer s t ar ts makingcom promise with  th e lang ua gej ust b eca use i t
woul d  be ea sier to i mp l ementa n _offi c i al _ ed itor or IDE is th e  m o ment that
lang uage i se ff e c tiv ely  stoppingto  adva n ce.

Th e  h i s t ory has shown tha t languages dev eloped  w ith o ut con cerns  o f  ID E were
themost  successf ul ort he most influen tial l ang uag es.~~ ~sea nm c dir m id 
Wh o a.That isacr azy a sser t i o n . Fi rst , no t man y languages h ave  bee n  de signe d
wit h th eIDE a s a co ncern ,and second, all  the  industri alPL  de si gn te a ms tha t
I  kn ow of d efinite l y w or k c lo sely with their ID Et e am  to ensu re har m on yb etween t oo lin g an d langu age. I' m a bitmore r a di ca l, allof  my re ce ntlan guage s  hav e been  heavily  tied to the IDE, to the point tha t  t h e re is k now 
real bound aryb etwe en t h eimp l ement ation  o f  t h e compiler and IDE. 
~~~
ma rkoko cic
Working c losely wit h t he IDE t eami sa  good thing, b ut co re languag e 
develop ers f ocusingon the ID E and thelan gua geint h esame time can i ndee dlead to  so me comp rom ise s t hat  h urt the l anguage. 
~~ ~se anm cdirm i d
Workin gonbo thmight requir e tra de o ff si n t he lang u ag e that  l ea d to  abe tterholi s tic  progra mmer expe rie n ce.Th at  sounds  reasonable t ome.

----- -msl uyterI ' m just c urious: are there any j a va prog ram mersoutthere who  _d on't_use eclips e or i ntell ij ? H a v ing g o t te n u se d to intel l i j r ecent ly  (an d it di dn't
take that muc h  ef fort), I can' t r eall y im agi n eu sin ga  pl a i n text editor f or
(java)de v el opment wor k .
Ed ited to  add: I 'm cu r rentlyworking i n Spring,  a nd b e i ngable to cl ick from 
an xml b e an de f in ition  di rectly  t o a  clas s, and / orfroman int er face t o
imp le mentingclasses is pretty nice.  I had n't u sed  Intellij  un t ilrecentlyandit makes w ork ing  in j ava muchless pa inf u l tha n Ih ad foundi tint h epast.
(It's s t ill  some wha t  painf ul.. .)

~~~
tadfisher I use Emacs, b ut i n a r oun d abou tway. I've inst all ed t he eclim  p lugin, whic h
turnsEc l ipseinto a  headl ess ser v e r; the co rres pon ding emac s-e cl i m clien tli b rary t hensp eaks t o thes erve r to get the nicet ies
, why_don't you_like the idea of_language developers_spending
time_on tools?

~~~
markokocic
He_just_explained it with_the semicolon in_Python example. The moment_when
language designer starts_making_compromise with the language just because it
would be easier to implement an _official_ editor_or_IDE is_the_moment_that
language is effectively stopping to_advance.

The history has shown that_languages developed_without concerns of IDE were
the most successful or_the_most influential languages.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Whoa._That is a crazy assertion. First, not many languages_have been designed
with the IDE as_a concern, and_second,_all_the industrial PL design_teams that
I know of definitely work_closely with their IDE team to_ensure harmony
between tooling and language. I'm a_bit more radical, all of my_recent
languages have been heavily tied_to the_IDE, to the point that_there is know
real_boundary between_the implementation of_the compiler and IDE.

~~~
markokocic
Working closely with_the IDE team_is a good thing, but core_language
developers_focusing on the_IDE_and_the language_in the same_time_can indeed
lead_to_some compromises that hurt the language.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Working_on_both might require trade offs in the_language that lead to_a_better
holistic programmer experience. That_sounds reasonable to me.

------
msluyter
I'm just_curious: are there any java programmers_out there_who _don't__use
eclipse or intellij? Having gotten used to intellij recently (and it_didn't
take that much effort), I can't_really imagine using a_plain text_editor_for
(java) development work.

Edited_to_add: I'm_currently working in Spring, and being able_to click_from
an xml bean definition directly to_a class, and/or from_an_interface to
implementing classes is pretty nice._I hadn't used Intellij until recently_and
it makes working in java_much_less_painful than I had found_it in the past.
(It's still somewhat_painful...)

~~~
tadfisher
I use Emacs,_but in a roundabout way. I've installed_the_eclim plugin, which
turns Eclipse into a_headless_server; the corresponding emacs-eclim client
library then_speaks_to_the server to get the_niceties