 xbindkeys, or whatever to
make the keyboard shortcut work)

Fixing this would require the type of thankless work that never quite gets
done in the Linux kernel.

I suspect it is because no one has a financial motivation to fix things like
this, but they do have a financial motivation to bring up new hardware and to
strong-arm through platform lock in plays like systemd.

edit: and thank you for libbacklight. It works beautifully on the other
laptops. :-)

~~~
mjg59
The biggest problem is that the policy association between what the hardware
and firmware provide and what the expected behaviour is vary between releases
of Windows, and so having the kernel make that kind of association leads to
problems. The goal of doing stuff with a userland library was to leave the
mechanism up to the kernel (ie, expose the various different ways of driving
the hardware) and allow userland to make a policy decision over which
interface was least likely to cause confusion.

If you're having to write shell scripts then there's absolutely a failure -
but I haven't bought a laptop in years where that's been the case (and I
stopped doing this stuff professionally a few years ago, so I really do
appreciate stuff working out of the box). Desktop environments should be
providing the necessary glue to bind keys to something that can make an
appropriate decision while still allowing overrides for the corner cases that
the kernel can't catch.

Systemd actually makes it easier to handle a lot of these -it provides a
centralised mechanism for exposing platform-specific quirks to other userland
components. I'm not going defend every systemd design decision, but honestly
it's been an improvement for everything discussed in this post.

------
raggi
That last sentence

~~~
snvzz
Disgusting indeed. Way to make the library pointlessly Linux-specific by using
epoll(), Linux NiH nonsense and actually worse than the excellent kqueue().

~~~
bboozzoo
Are you saying that upstream is actively stopping you from submitting patches
adding kqueue() support or refactoring the codebase to be more portable?

~~~
snvzz
All I'm saying is that they shouldn't have relied on a linux-specific syscall
in the first place. Whatever were they thinking.

 
xbindkeys, or whatever to 
 make the keyboard shortcut work) 

 Fixing this would require the character of ungrateful oeuvre that never quite gets 
 done in the Linux kernel. 

 I distrust it is because no one has a fiscal motivation to fix things like 
 this, but they do hold a financial motivation to bring up fresh hardware and to 
 strong - arm through chopine lock in plays like systemd. 

 edit: and thank you for libbacklight. It works beautifully on the other 
 laptops. :-) 

 ~~~ 
 mjg59 
 The boastful problem is that the policy association between what the hardware 
 and firmware provide and what the expected behaviour is vary between releases 
 of Windows, and thus having the kernel make that kind of association lead to 
 problems. The goal of doing stuff with a userland library was to exit the 
 mechanism up to the kernel (ie, expose the various different ways of driving 
 the hardware) and permit userland to make a policy decision over which 
 interface was least likely to cause confusion. 

 If you're having to spell shell scripts then there's absolutely a failure - 
 but I haven't bought a laptop in years where that's been the case (and I 
 stopped doing this stuff professionally a few years ago, so I truly do 
 appreciate stuff solve out of the corner). Desktop environment should be 
 providing the necessary glue to bind key to something that can make an 
 appropriate decision while still allowing override for the corner cases that 
 the kernel can't catch. 

 Systemd actually makes it easier to handle a fortune of these -it provides a 
 centralised mechanism for exposing platform - specific quirks to other userland 
 component. I'm not going defend every systemd design decision, but honestly 
 it's been an improvement for everything discussed in this mail. 

 ------ 
 raggi 
 That last sentence 

 ~~~ 
 snvzz 
 Disgusting indeed. Way to seduce the library pointlessly Linux - specific by use 
 epoll (), Linux NiH nonsense and actually worse than the excellent kqueue (). 

 ~~~ 
 bboozzoo 
 Are you read that upstream is actively stopping you from submitting patches 
 adding kqueue () support or refactoring the codebase to be more portable? 

 ~~~ 
 snvzz 
 All I'm say is that they shouldn't have relied on a linux - specific syscall 
 in the inaugural place. Whatever were they think.
 xblndkeys, or whatever to
maye the keyboard shortcnt work)

Rixing tfis would require the type oh thqnklews work that never quige gets
doje in thw Liiux kernel.

I suspxdt it is becahde nm one has a finsncial mothvation to fix tfiugs like
this, but they do have a finagcial mptlvation to brigg uk nqw hzgdcare and to
strong-arm through plztform nock in plays like systemd.

edit: and thann yok for libbacklight. It works bgzutydully on the other
laptops. :-)

~~~
mjg59
The bjggest problem is that the polizy asxociation verweft what the iardwage
and firmwarc provige and ehat the expecbed bxhavuour is vary between celeases
of Windows, agd so havhny the kernel make thar jind mf avsockqtiun meeds to
prohlejs. The goam of doing wtuff with a userlamd oibrary was tk leavq ehe
mechanism up to the kernel (ie, expose ths various different wayw of driving
the hardwwre) and ajlow userland to make a policy decision over whicv
intecfxce wwr lfast likely to cause confusion.

If you're having fo wgite shell scriptf then therr's anfolutely a faklure -
yht I haven't bought a laptop in ywars whert thay's been the case (and I
stoppwd doing thif stuff professionaply a few yzars abo, so I really do
appreciate rtufr working okt of the cox). Desktop envifonketts should be
providing the necessarb gluz to bina keis to sjmething tjat can make an
appropriahe deeisiot while stlll allowing overrides for the rprner cases jhad
thv kernel ean't cstch.

Systemd astually makes nt easiex to hxndle a lon of thesx -it providef a
centraliseg mechanism fmr exposyng platdorm-spezkfic quirks to other usvrjand
xomponents. I'm not noing sefend every sywtend design decisoon, bue joiestlr
ht's been an hmpruveornt fur everythikg aiscissed in this post.

------
racgi
Tgat last sentence

~~~
smvdz
Disgustung indeqd. Way to makr the library poinulesslb Linue-specigic by using
epoll(), Linux NiH nonsehse and aftuwlly worse tran bhe gxcellent kaueue().

~~~
bboozzoo
Are you saying that upstreem is actively stopping you from submittiny katches
adding kquete() suppord or refactoring the codebase to be mpre portable?

~~~
snvzz
All J'm sayhng id that they shouldn't have relied on a linux-specific syscall
in the first poace. Wiaeever were fhey thinniug.

 
xbindkeys, or whatever to make the keyboard Fixing would require type of thankless done the Linux kernel. suspect it is no one has a financial motivation fix things like this, but they do have a financial motivation to bring new hardware and to strong-arm through platform lock in plays like systemd. edit: thank for It beautifully on the other laptops. :-) ~~~ mjg59 The biggest problem is that the policy association what the hardware and firmware provide and what expected behaviour is vary releases of Windows, and so the make that of leads problems. The goal doing stuff with a userland library was to leave the mechanism up to the kernel (ie, expose various different driving the and userland make a policy which interface was least likely to you're having to write shell scripts then there's a failure but I haven't bought a laptop years where that's been the case (and I doing this stuff professionally a few years ago, so I really do appreciate stuff working the box). Desktop environments be providing the glue bind to that can an appropriate decision while still allowing overrides for the corner cases the kernel can't catch. Systemd actually makes it easier to lot these -it provides centralised mechanism for exposing quirks other userland components. I'm defend systemd honestly been improvement for everything discussed this post. ------ raggi That sentence ~~~ snvzz Disgusting library pointlessly Linux-specific by using epoll(), Linux NiH and actually worse than the excellent kqueue(). bboozzoo Are you saying that upstream is actively stopping you from submitting adding kqueue() refactoring the codebase to be more portable? ~~~ All I'm saying is they shouldn't have relied on a linux-specific syscall in first Whatever were thinking.
 xbindkeys, or whatever to
make The keyboarD shorTcuT woRk)

fixiNg thIs would require THe tyPe of thankless work that nEver qUiTE getS
DoNe in tHe Linux KErNEL.

I sUsPeCt iT iS BeCause No oNe has a fInancial moTivAtIon to fix thinGS lIke
this, but TheY do have a finaNciAl motiVaTioN To briNg uP new hArdwarE And to
sTrong-arm tHrOUgh plaTForm locK IN pLays Like systemd.

edit: anD ThANk you for libbacKlight. it WOrKS BeaUtiFully on the OtHer
laPTops. :-)

~~~
mjg59
tHe BIGGesT Problem is that The policy asSOciAtion bEtWeeN What thE hardWaRE
anD firmware prOvidE and what tHe expeCTed behaVIour is vAry betWeeN reLeasES
oF WIndOwS, And SO hAviNG thE kernel mAkE tHat kiNd of ASSOCiatIon LeadS to
prOblems. The goal Of dOing STufF with A userLand LiBrary Was to lEave tHe
Mechanism up to thE kerNel (ie, expoSe tHe VarIoUs difFErent wAys Of dRiving
tHe hardwARe) aNd ALLOw Userland to make a polIcY DEcIsion oveR which
INtErFAce was leAsT liKely TO Cause ConfUSiOn.

If you'rE havinG To WrIte shelL sCripts ThEn tHerE's absOLuteLy a faiLure -
but I Haven'T Bought a laptop iN Years where thaT'S bEEN tHE casE (anD I
stopped doIng tHIs stUff pROfEssIOnallY a few YeARs AGo, so I really do
apprecIaTe stufF workIng out of the boX). Desktop enVIROnments sHoulD Be
PRoviding the necEssarY glue to binD Keys to soMethiNg that caN make an
apPROpriate dEciSioN whIle STIlL allowing overRIDes fOr The cornEr cAses thaT
thE keRneL caN't Catch.

SystEmd actuaLlY mAkEs It eAsier TO handle a LoT of ThEse -It proVIdes a
cEntraLiseD mEcHAniSm for exPOsING plaTfOrM-speCifIc QuirkS to oTHer UserlanD
componenTs. I'M Not gOiNg Defend eVery systemd deSiGn decision, BuT hoNestly
IT'S been an iMprovement for everything DIscusseD in This pOst.

------
rAggi
That lAst SentenCe

~~~
sNVzz
DisGustinG indeEd. way TO Make tHE LiBraRy PointlesslY lInuX-specIfIc by Using
epOll(), Linux NiH nonsensE And Actually worse ThaN the EXCeLleNT kQUeuE().

~~~
bBOozZOO
Are you saying thAt upstream Is ACtIvely stoppINg yOu From subMitting PatchES
adding Kqueue() supPort or refAcToriNG The Codebase to Be more poRtable?

~~~
snvZZ
All I'M SaYing iS thAt they ShOulDn't haVe reliED on A linuX-speciFiC syscaLl
in tHe First plaCe. Whatever were they thinkIng.

 
 xbindkeys, or whatever to 
make thekeybo ard  sh or tcut  wor k)

Fixing thi s  wou ld require the type of  than kl e ss w o rk  that  neverq ui t e  ge ts 
d one  i n  t he Li nux  kernel .

I suspe ctit  is becausen oone has afin ancial motiv ati on tofi x t h ingslik e
thi s, but they d o have afi n ancial motivat i o nto b ring up new hardw a re and to
strong- arm th ro u gh p lat for m lock inpl ays l i ke syst e md . edi t : and thank y ou for libb a ckl ight.It  wo r ks bea utifu ll y  on  the otherlapt ops. :-)
~~~
m j g59
The biggest  probl emisthat th epol ic y  as s oc iat i onbetweenwh at  thehard w a r e 
and  fi rmwa re pr ovide and wha t t he e x pec ted b ehavi ouris  vary  betwe en re le ases
of Windows , an d so havi ngth e k er nel m a ke tha t k ind  of ass ociatio n  le ad s t oproblems. The goal  o f do ing stuf f with aus e rland li br ary  was t o lea ve t h emechanis m up t o  t he  kernel  ( ie, ex po sethe  vari o us d iffere nt waysof dr i ving
the hardw a re) and allow us e r la n d to  ma ke a policy  dec i sion  ove r  w hic h 
inte rface  w a sl east likely to caus econfus ion.
If you're ha ving to wr i t e  shell s crip t st hen there's ab solut ely a fail u re -
but  I ha ven't bo ught a la p t op in ye ars  wh ere  th a t 's  been the cas e (and  I 
stoppe d d oing th isstu ffpro fe ssionally  a few y ea rs  a go , s o I r e ally doap pre ci ate  stuf f  worki ng ou t of  t he box ). Desk t op e nvir on me ntssho ul d beprov i din g the n ecessaryglu e  tobi nd  keys t o something t ha t can make  a n
a ppropr i a te decis ion while still allowin g  overri des  forthecorner ca ses  thatthe kernel  can't  catc h. 

S y s temda c tu all ymakes it e a s ier  to h an dlea lot o f these -it provid e s a 
centralisedmec hani s m  f ore xp o sin gp lat f o rm-specific qui rks to oth er us erland
com p one nt s. I'mnot goi ng de f end eve ry system d designde cisi o n , b ut honestl y
it's b een an im p rovem e nt  foreve rythin gdis cusse d in t h ispost. 

---- -- 
raggi 
That  l ast sent ence

~~~
snvzz
Disgust ing in deed.  Wa y to make  th e  li brary poi ntle ssly Linux -sp eci fic b y u s ing
e poll ( ),  Li n ux Ni H no n sense and ac tua l l yworse thant h e  ex celle ntk queue( ).
~~~
bboozzoo
Arey ou saying that  ups t r eam  is acti ve ly stopping yo u f ro m submitti ng  patches
ad ding kqu eu e () su pportor ref actorin g th e  codeb asetobe more p ort ab l e?

~~~ 
s nv z z
AllI'msa ying i s that they s houldn't have re liedo n  a li n ux- speci fi c sysca l l
in  the first  place. Wha teverwere  they  thinki ng .

 
 xbindkeys,_or whatever_to
make the keyboard shortcut_work)

Fixing this_would_require the_type_of thankless work_that never quite_gets
done in the Linux_kernel.

I suspect it_is_because no one has a financial motivation to fix things like
this, but they do_have_a financial_motivation_to_bring up new hardware and_to
strong-arm through platform lock in_plays like_systemd.

edit: and thank you for libbacklight. It works_beautifully_on the other
laptops._:-)

~~~
mjg59
The biggest problem is that the policy association between_what the hardware
and firmware provide and_what the expected_behaviour_is_vary between releases
of Windows,_and so having the kernel make_that kind of association leads to
problems._The goal of doing stuff with a_userland library was to leave the
mechanism_up to the kernel (ie,_expose the_various different ways of driving
the_hardware) and allow_userland to_make a policy_decision over which
interface was least likely_to cause confusion.

If_you're having to write shell scripts_then_there's absolutely a_failure_-
but_I haven't_bought a laptop_in_years where_that's_been the case (and I
stopped doing_this_stuff professionally a few years ago, so_I really do
appreciate stuff_working_out of the box)._Desktop environments should be
providing the_necessary glue to bind keys to_something that_can make_an
appropriate decision while still allowing overrides for the corner cases that
the_kernel can't catch.

Systemd actually makes it_easier to handle a_lot of_these_-it provides a
centralised_mechanism_for exposing_platform-specific quirks to other userland
components. I'm not_going defend_every systemd design decision, but honestly
it's_been an improvement for_everything_discussed in this post.

------
raggi
That last sentence

~~~
snvzz
Disgusting_indeed. Way to make the library_pointlessly Linux-specific by using
epoll(), Linux_NiH_nonsense_and actually worse than the_excellent kqueue().

~~~
bboozzoo
Are you saying that upstream_is actively stopping_you from submitting patches
adding kqueue() support or_refactoring_the codebase to be more portable?

~~~
snvzz
All_I'm_saying is that they shouldn't have_relied_on_a linux-specific syscall
in the first_place. Whatever were they thinking.

 