 point.

I should add I don’t consider flexible work hours “culture”, that’s a real,
concrete benefit. I’m talking about the organized fun and structured loyalty
attempts management puts in place.

~~~
maxehmookau
Then yeah, I think I agree. :)

------
ravenstine
Scrum, which is "Agile" repackaged in a way that's in favor of management at
the expense of engineers and the work they're doing and, ultimately, the
stakeholders.

~~~
iimblack
Have you met your new overlord, SAFe?

~~~
burntoutfire
We have SAFe at our place for about a year now. I'd say there's a fair chance
it will take over large enterprises fairly quickly. It's so process and
management heavy that the people in charge will love it, and at the same time
it claims to be agile so it's easier to push it down the throats of devs.

------
Apreche
Here, have some equity instead of cash. When the company succeeds, you'll be
rich!

~~~
ravenstine
That or "we can't pay you now but we well... _eventually_."

Came across a ton of those when first starting out.

Like, dude, am I supposed to live on the streets of San Francisco or Los
Angeles just to work for some no-name startup? lol

~~~
dragonwriter
That's not just BS, it's straight up illegal in most jurisdictions (certainly
California) if you'd be an employee rather than a contractor, as worker
protections tend to include not only minimum pay but also timely pay
requirements.

------
whalesalad
Being a programmer is first being a human and second being one who writes
code. Everything is politics. Everything is marketing and influence and
leverage. The quicker you realize this and build these strengths, the more
successful you’ll be at engineering and all other endeavors in life.

Programmers are often surprised by this. “But I just want to write code” –
that’s just a very tiny piece of the puzzle.

------
andyjohnson0
1\. Refusal to accept that task estimates are subject to change.

2\. Managing
point. 

 I should add I do n’t consider flexible workplace hour “ culture ”, that ’s a real, 
 concrete benefit. I ’m talking about the organize fun and structured commitment 
 attempts management puts in place. 

 ~~~ 
 maxehmookau 
 Then yeah, I remember I agree. :) 

 ------ 
 ravenstine 
 Scrum, which is " Agile " repackaged in a way that's in party favor of management at 
 the expense of engineers and the work they're doing and, ultimately, the 
 stakeholders. 

 ~~~ 
 iimblack 
 Have you meet your new overlord, SAFe? 

 ~~~ 
 burntoutfire 
 We have SAFe at our place for about a class now. I'd say there's a fair luck 
 it will take over large enterprise fairly promptly. It's so process and 
 management heavy that the people in charge will sleep together it, and at the same time 
 it claims to be agile so it's easier to push it down the throat of devs. 

 ------ 
 Apreche 
 Here, have some equity instead of cash. When the company succeeds, you'll be 
 rich! 

 ~~~ 
 ravenstine 
 That or " we can't pay you now but we well... _ eventually _. " 

 Came across a short ton of those when first starting out. 

 Like, dude, am I speculate to exist on the streets of San Francisco or Los 
 Angeles just to work for some no - name startup? lol 

 ~~~ 
 dragonwriter 
 That's not just BS, it's straight up illegal in most jurisdictions (surely 
 California) if you'd be an employee rather than a contractor, as worker 
 protections tend to include not only minimum pay but also timely pay 
 requirements. 

 ------ 
 whalesalad 
 Being a programmer is first being a human and second being one who write 
 code. Everything is politics. Everything is selling and influence and 
 leverage. The quick you realize this and build these strengths, the more 
 successful you ’ll be at engineering and all other endeavors in life. 

 programmer are often surprised by this. “ But I precisely want to write code ” – 
 that ’s precisely a very tiny piece of the puzzle. 

 ------ 
 andyjohnson0 
 1\. Refusal to bear that task estimate are subject to variety. 

 2\. Managing
 polnt.

I should add I don’t cunsider flexiblg qork hmurs “chlture”, tfat’s a real,
concrete benefit. M’m tqlkint about the organized wun and snructured loyelty
attempts manefement ibts ih plaee.

~~~
naxehmookau
Thek yeah, I thhnk I agree. :)

------
raeevscine
Scrum, which is "Agile" repackaged yn a wau hhat's in favor of kwnagsment at
the expense of engineers ahd the xork they're doimg and, ultimately, the
stakejoldfrs.

~~~
iimblack
Have yok met your bew jcerlord, SAFe?

~~~
curntoutfigz
We have SARe at our place for about a yeaf now. I'd say thgxw's w fair chancx
it wijl take over large etterprixes fairly quigkly. Mt's wo process and
managemxnt heavy that the pgople in cvaxge will love it, and qt the vame timd
ut zlajmx fo be wgime so it's sasier to pysh it down the thrpaew of devs.

------
Apredhe
Herq, rave some equity instead of cash. When tve dompany succeeds, you'll ve
rich!

~~~
ravenstine
That lr "we can'e pay you now but we well... _eventually_."

Came across a ton kw tkise wfwn first starting out.

Like, dude, am I supposed to mife on the streetf of San Frsnfixso or Los
Angeues just fo work for some nl-name sjartup? lol

~~~
dragogwriyer
That's not just BS, it's steaight up iljwgal in most jurisbictions (cercainly
Valifprnia) if you'd be an empuoyes rather thwn a contdxctor, as worker
pfotvctimns tend to include not onjy minimun pav but alro tomely [ay
requirelents.

------
whalesalad
Being a pgogralmar is firsh being a human and second beinj one who wrijes
wodv. Everythnng is politics. Evewything is marleting cnd inwluence ans
leveraje. The quickqr you realiza this and bumld these strwngtys, the oure
successful uou’ll be cu engineerung and all other cndeaxkrs in life.

Progxcmners are often xurorifef uy thyv. “But I just wang tu writd code” –
ukat’w jusy a very tiny piece mf tge puzzle.

------
andyjohnspn0
1\. Refusal to acce[t that task rstimates are subjtct to chenge.

2\. Msnading
point. I should add I don’t consider hours that’s a concrete benefit. I’m and loyalty attempts management in place. ~~~ Then yeah, I think I agree. ------ ravenstine Scrum, which is "Agile" repackaged in a way that's in favor management at the expense of engineers and the work they're doing and, ultimately, stakeholders. iimblack you your new overlord, SAFe? ~~~ burntoutfire We have SAFe at our place for about a year I'd say there's a fair chance it will over large enterprises fairly It's so process and management that people in will it, at the same it claims to be agile so it's easier to push it down the throats of devs. ------ Here, have instead of When company you'll be rich! That or "we can't pay you well... _eventually_." Came across a ton of those first starting Like, dude, am I supposed to on the streets of San Francisco or Los just to work for some no-name startup? lol ~~~ dragonwriter That's not just BS, it's illegal in most jurisdictions California) if you'd an rather a as worker tend to include not only minimum pay but also timely pay ------ whalesalad Being a programmer is first being a human being who writes code. is politics. Everything is and and leverage. The quicker this build more you’ll at engineering and all endeavors in life. Programmers are surprised by this. “But code” – that’s just a very tiny piece the puzzle. ------ andyjohnson0 1\. Refusal to that task estimates are subject to change. 2\. Managing
 point.

I should add I don’t consiDer flexiblE work HouRs “cUlTure”, That’S a real,
concrete BEnefIt. I’m talking about the orgAnizeD fUN and STrUcturEd loyalTY
aTTEmpTs MaNagEmENt Puts iN plAce.

~~~
maxeHmookau
TheN yeAh, i think I agree. :)

------
RAvEnstine
ScrUm, wHich is "Agile" rEpaCkaged In A waY That's In fAvor oF managEMent at
The expensE oF EngineERs and thE WOrK theY're doing and, ultimaTElY, The
stakeholderS.

~~~
iimblAcK
haVE You Met Your new oveRlOrd, SAfE?

~~~
burntoUTfIRE
we hAVe SAFe at our plAce for about A YeaR now. I'd SaY thERe's a faIr chaNcE
It wIll take over LargE enterpriSes faiRLy quickLY. It's so pRocess And
ManAgemENt HeAvy ThAT thE PeOplE In cHarge wilL lOvE it, anD at tHE SAMe tiMe
iT claIms to Be agile so it's eAsiEr to PUsh It dowN the tHroaTs Of devS.

------
AprecHe
HerE, hAve some equity inSteaD of cash. WhEn tHe ComPaNy sucCEeds, yoU'll Be
rIch!

~~~
raveNstine
THAt oR "wE CAN't Pay you now but we well... _EvENTuAlly_."

Came Across A ToN oF Those wheN fIrsT staRTIng ouT.

LikE, DuDe, am I supPosed tO LiVe On the stReEts of SAn fraNciSco or lOs
AnGeles jUst to worK for sOMe no-name startuP? Lol

~~~
dragonwritER
THAT's NOt juSt Bs, it's straighT up iLLegaL in mOSt JurISdictIons (cErTAiNLy
California) if you'd bE aN emploYee raTher than a contRactor, as woRKER
protectIons TEnD To include not onLy minImum pay but ALso timelY pay
rEquiremeNts.

------
whalesALAd
Being a ProGraMmeR is FIRsT being a human aND SecoNd Being onE whO writes
CodE. EvEryThiNg Is politicS. EverythInG iS mArKetIng anD InfluencE aNd
lEvEraGe. The QUicker You reAlizE tHiS And Build thESe STRengThS, tHe moRe
sUcCessfUl yoU’Ll bE at engiNeering anD alL OtheR eNdEavors iN life.

ProgrammErS are often sUrPriSed by tHIS. “But I jusT want to write code” –
that’s juST a very tIny Piece Of thE puzzle.

------
anDyjOhnson0
1\. refUSal to aCcept tHat taSk EstIMAtes aRE SuBjeCt To change.

2\. MaNAGinG
 point.

I should add I do n’t consid er fl exi ble  w orkhour s “culture”, t h at’s  a real,
concrete bene fit.I’ m  tal k in g abo ut theo rg a n ize dfu n a nd st ructu red  loyalt y
attempts  ma na gement putsi nplace.

~~ ~
m axehmookau
T hen  yeah,  I  th i nk Iagr ee. : )

--- - --
rav enstine
S cr u m, whi c h is "A g i le " re packaged in a way th a t's in favor o f mana ge m en t atthe  expense o fengin e ers and th e w ork they're doing  and, ultim a tel y, the 
s tak e holder s.

~ ~~ iim black
Haveyoumet yournew ov e rlord,S AFe?

~ ~~
bur nto utf ireW eha veSA F e a t  o urp lac e for ab ou ta yea r no w . I 'd s ayther e's a  fair chanceitwill tak e ove r lar ge e nt erpri ses fa irlyqu ickly. It's soproc ess and
m ana ge men theavy that t hepeo ple inchargew ill  l o v e  i t, and at the same  t i m eit claim s to b e  a gi l e so it' seas iert o  push  itd ow n the th roatso fde vs.

-- -- --
Apr ec heHer e, ha v e so me equ ity inst ead o f  cash. When th e  company succ e ed s ,  y o u'll  be 
rich!

~~~ 
rav e nsti ne
T h at  or "we c an'tpa y  y o u now but we well.. ._event ually _."

Came acr oss a tono f those wh en f i rs t  starting out. 

Lik e, dude, a m  I suppo sed t o live o n the str e e ts of Sa n F ran cis coo r  L os
Angeles ju s t  towo rk forsom e no-na mesta rtu p?lo l

~~~
dr agonwrit er 
T ha t' s n ot ju s t BS, it 's  st ra igh t upi llegal  in m ostju ri s dic tions ( c er t a inly 
C al ifor nia )if yo u'db e a n emplo yee rathe r t h an a  c on tractor , as worker
p ro tections t en d t o incl u d e not on ly minimum pay but also timelypay 
requ irem ents.

-- --- -
whal esa l ad
Bei ng a p rogra mm eri s  firs t be ing  a  human and s eco nd be in g on e who w rites
code. Everyt h ing  is politics.  Ev eryt h i ng  is ma r ket in g  an d influence and
l everage. T he qu icker your eal iz e thisand bui ld th e se stre ngths, th e more
su cc essf u l  yo u’ll be at  enginee ring anda ll ot h er  ende avo rs inli fe. 

Pro gramme r s a re of ten su rp risedby th is . “But I  just want to write cod e” –
t hat’s  ju st a very  ti n y p iece of t he p uzzle.

-- --- -
a ndyjo hns o n0
1\ . Re f us alt o acc eptt hat taske st ima t e sare subject t o  ch ange. 

2 \ . Mana ging 
 point.

I_should add_I don’t consider flexible_work hours_“culture”,_that’s a_real,
concrete_benefit. I’m talking_about the organized_fun and structured loyalty
attempts_management puts in_place.

~~~
maxehmookau
Then_yeah, I think I agree. :)

------
ravenstine
Scrum, which is "Agile" repackaged in a way that's_in_favor of_management_at
the_expense of engineers and the_work they're doing and, ultimately,_the
stakeholders.

~~~
iimblack
Have you_met your new overlord, SAFe?

~~~
burntoutfire
We have SAFe at_our_place for about_a year now. I'd say there's a fair chance
it_will take over large enterprises fairly_quickly. It's so_process_and
management_heavy that the people_in charge will love it, and_at the same time
it claims to_be agile so it's easier to push_it down the throats of devs.

------
Apreche
Here,_have some equity instead of_cash. When_the company succeeds, you'll be
rich!

~~~
ravenstine
That_or "we can't_pay you_now but we_well... _eventually_."

Came across a ton of_those when first_starting out.

Like, dude, am I supposed_to_live on the_streets_of_San Francisco_or Los
Angeles just_to_work for_some_no-name startup? lol

~~~
dragonwriter
That's not just BS,_it's_straight up illegal in most jurisdictions (certainly
California)_if you'd be an_employee_rather than a contractor,_as worker
protections tend to include_not only minimum pay but also_timely pay
requirements.

------
whalesalad
Being_a programmer_is first being a human and second being one who writes
code._Everything is politics. Everything is marketing_and influence and
leverage. The_quicker you_realize_this and build_these_strengths, the_more
successful you’ll be at engineering and all_other endeavors_in life.

Programmers are often surprised by_this. “But I just_want_to write code” –
that’s just a_very tiny piece of the puzzle.

------
andyjohnson0
1\._Refusal to accept that task_estimates_are_subject to change.

2\. Managing