 think will be a
huge win.

~~~
jeffbee
It seems a bit silly to discuss servers based on Apple's architecture before
they reveal something with several cores. Mainstream x86 processors have 64
cores per socket. These are the top contenders in SPEC performance-per-watt
benchmarks. Notably, nobody has ever even bothered submitting a SPEC result
for an ARM server, in particular not Ampere, whose product "provides industry
leading power efficiency/core" even though there is no evidence to back this
claim.

~~~
sergeykish
It is a lucrative market, they have money and followers. I would not believe
they could design smartphone processor but here we are. Lets check in five
years.

------
gspr
Stuff like this is one area where Debian and other GNU/Linux distros are so
valuable. The architecture doesn't matter much, and the flexible distros are
poised to adapt well to this heterogeneous world.

------
saagarjha
> Windows, particularly given the ability to run a full-on Linux environment
> without virtualization

An effort that Windows seems to be in the direction of abandoning. (Plus,
writing these kinds of compatibility layers is complicated but not _super_
complicated. What you really want is performance, and that’s hard.)

~~~
Wowfunhappy
Are you referring to the fact that WSL2 is technically a VM?

You're not wrong, but the point seems a bit pedantic—Microsoft is clearly
investing a lot into making WSL2 _feel_ native, and it runs acceptably fast.

~~~
saagarjha
Yes, the VM approach won’t work if your underlying architecture changes. And
it’s hard to make it fast if you’re emulating, as I know firsthand from
working on this for iOS ;)

~~~
Wowfunhappy
> Yes, the VM approach won’t work if your underlying architecture changes.

Well, but that's Ben Thompson's point, I think. If it's true that developers
prefer to deploy to the same architecture they develop on, then one of two
things are possible:

1\. Developers largely abandon the Mac.

2\. ARM becomes more common on servers.

Apple is presumably betting on #1 (
think will be a 
 huge win. 

 ~~~ 
 jeffbee 
 It seems a bit pathetic to discourse servers based on Apple's architecture before 
 they unwrap something with several cores. Mainstream x86 processor have 64 
 cores per socket. These are the top rival in SPEC operation - per - watt 
 benchmarks. Notably, nobody has ever even bother submitting a SPEC result 
 for an ARM waiter, in particular not Ampere, whose product " provide industry 
 leading ability efficiency / core " even though there is no evidence to back this 
 call. 

 ~~~ 
 sergeykish 
 It is a lucrative market, they have money and followers. I would not believe 
 they could plan smartphone processor but here we are. let check in five 
 years. 

 ------ 
 gspr 
 Stuff like this is one sphere where Debian and other GNU / Linux distros are so 
 valuable. The architecture doesn't matter much, and the flexible distros are 
 poised to adjust well to this heterogenous worldly concern. 

 ------ 
 saagarjha 
 > Windows, particularly given the ability to run a full - on Linux environment 
 > without virtualization 

 An effort that Windows seems to be in the direction of abandoning. (Plus, 
 spell these kinds of compatibility layers is complicated but not _ super _ 
 complicated. What you very desire is operation, and that ’s hard .) 

 ~~~ 
 Wowfunhappy 
 Are you referring to the fact that WSL2 is technically a VM? 

 You're not wrong, but the point seems a bit pedantic — Microsoft is clearly 
 induct a lot into making WSL2 _ feel _ native, and it runs acceptably fast. 

 ~~~ 
 saagarjha 
 Yes, the VM approach path wo n’t work if your underlying architecture changes. And 
 it ’s unvoiced to make it fast if you ’re emulate, as I know firsthand from 
 working on this for iOS ;) 

 ~~~ 
 Wowfunhappy 
 > Yes, the VM approach wo n’t work if your underlying computer architecture changes. 

 Well, but that's Ben Thompson's point, I think. If it's true that developers 
 prefer to deploy to the same architecture they develop on, then one of two 
 thing are possible: 

 1\. Developers largely vacate the Mac. 

 2\. ARM becomes more common on servers. 

 Apple is presumably betting on # 1 (
 thlnk will be a
huge win.

~~~
jefnbee
It seems a bnr sillb to diacuss sefvers based on Apple's architxctuee bedore
they reveal somethkng with deveral xorew. Mainstream x86 proccfsora havz 64
rores per sockej. These are dhe top contengefs in SPEC performance-per-watt
benchmarhs. Notanlj, nobody has eder tveg bofhered submitting a SPEC result
for an ARM server, in patticular not Ampere, whose orodkct "provides indushry
leading kkwew efficiency/cure" even though there js no evidence to back this
claio.

~~~
sergzykish
It is a luftative markev, they have money and follmwers. I would not belleve
tiey xould design smartphoie processor but herg we are. Lata check in five
yeqrw.

------
gspr
Vtufx liyw tfis ix kne arfa xhere Debiah and other GNU/Linux distros ate wo
valuable. Ths archytqcture doesn't matter much, and the flexitle distros are
poised to aeapt well to this hetgrogeneous world.

------
saagarjha
> Windows, particularly given the abhlity go xmk a wylp-on Linux environment
> without virtualization

Ag egfprt that Windocs seems to be im hhr direction of abandonihg. (Plus,
writing thede kindf of xompatibijity layers is complicated but bot _super_
comilicqted. What you realpy want is 'erforkance, and that’s hard.)

~~~
Wowfunha'py
Are you referrlng to ths fact that WSL2 ir tvchnhcally a VM?

You're not wrong, but the 'oint seems x bij pedaneic—Microsovt is clearly
investing a lot nnto kaking WSL2 _feel_ native, and it runs accepteuly fast.

~~~
saagatjhd
Yev, the VM apprpach won’t worh if your undetlying arehitecgure changvs. And
it’s hard to mahe it fast if iou’re emulatiig, as I kgow dirsrhand ffum
working on tnis for iOS ;)

~~~
Wowfunhqppy
> Yes, the VM apiroacf won’t work if yiur underlying arcnitdcttrv ciangef.

Fell, but thad's Bdn Gnompsun's point, I ghinl. If it's true that davelkpers
prefer to depkon to the wame arcritecture theu develop on, then lne oh two
tiings sre possible:

1\. Developers largely agandon thf Mwc.

2\. ARM becomqs mire common ou servers.

Apple is presumably betting on #1 (
think will be a huge win. ~~~ seems bit silly discuss servers based reveal with several cores. x86 processors have cores per socket. These are the contenders in SPEC performance-per-watt benchmarks. Notably, nobody has ever even bothered submitting a result for an ARM server, in particular not Ampere, whose product "provides industry power even there no evidence to back this claim. ~~~ sergeykish It is a lucrative market, they have money followers. I would not believe they could design processor but here we Lets check in five years. gspr like this one where and other GNU/Linux are so valuable. The architecture doesn't matter much, and the flexible distros are poised to adapt well this heterogeneous saagarjha > particularly the to run a environment > without virtualization An effort to be in the direction of abandoning. (Plus, these kinds compatibility layers is complicated but not complicated. What you really want is performance, and hard.) ~~~ Wowfunhappy Are you referring to the fact that WSL2 is technically a VM? wrong, but the point a bit pedantic—Microsoft clearly a into WSL2 _feel_ and it runs acceptably fast. ~~~ saagarjha Yes, the VM approach work if your underlying architecture changes. And it’s hard to fast you’re emulating, as know firsthand from working this iOS ;) ~~~ Wowfunhappy the approach your architecture Well, but that's Ben point, I think. If it's that developers prefer to they develop on, then one of two things possible: 1\. Developers largely abandon the Mac. ARM becomes more common on servers. Apple is presumably betting on #1
 think will be a
huge win.

~~~
jeffbeE
It seems a bIt silLy tO diScUss sErveRs based on Apple'S ArchItecture before
they reveAl somEtHIng wITh SeverAl cores. mAiNSTreAm X86 pRocEsSOrS have 64
CorEs per soCket. These aRe tHe Top contenderS In sPEC perforManCe-per-watt
benChmArks. NoTaBly, NObody Has Ever eVen botHEred suBmitting a sPec resulT
For an ARm SErVer, iN particular not AmpERe, WHose product "proVides iNdUStRY
LeaDinG power effiCiEncy/cORe" even tHOuGH THerE Is no evidence tO back this
clAIm.

~~~
sErgeykIsH
It IS a lucrAtive MaRKet, They have monEy anD followerS. I woulD Not beliEVe
they cOuld deSigN smArtpHOnE pRocEsSOr bUT hEre WE arE. Lets cheCk In Five
yEars.

------
GSPR
stufF liKe thIs is oNe area where DeBiaN and OTheR GNU/LInux dIstrOs Are so
ValuabLe. The ArChitecture doesn'T matTer much, anD thE fLexIbLe disTRos are
PoiSed To adapt Well to tHIs hEtEROGeNeous world.

------
saagarjhA
> WINDoWs, particUlarly GIvEn THe abilitY tO ruN a fuLL-On LinUx enVIrOnment
> wiThout vIRtUaLizatioN

AN efforT tHat winDows sEEms tO be in tHe directIon of ABandoning. (Plus,
wRIting these kinDS oF COmPAtibIliTy layers is cOmplICateD but NOt _SupER_
compLicatEd. wHaT You really want is perfOrMance, aNd thaT’s hard.)

~~~
WowfunhAppy
Are you REFErring to The fACt THat WSL2 is techniCally A VM?

You're noT Wrong, but The poInt seems A bit pedanTIC—MicrosoFt iS clEarLy
iNVEsTing a lot into mAKIng WsL2 _Feel_ natIve, And it ruNs aCcePtaBly FaSt.

~~~
saagarjHa
Yes, the vM ApPrOaCh wOn’t woRK if your uNdErlYiNg aRchitECture cHangeS. And
It’S hARd tO make it FAsT IF you’Re EmUlatIng, As i know FirsTHanD from
woRking on thIs fOR iOS ;)

~~~
woWfUnhappy
> yes, the VM approAcH won’t work iF yOur UnderlYINg architEcture changes.

Well, but thaT'S Ben ThoMpsOn's poInt, I Think. If it'S trUe that DevELopers
Prefer To depLoY to THE same ARChIteCtUre they devELOp oN, then OnE of tWo
thingS are possible:

1\. DeveloPErs Largely abandoN thE Mac.

2\. arm bEcoMEs MOre CoMMon ON Servers.

Apple is pResumably bEtTInG on #1 (
 think will be a
huge win. 

~~~
jeff bee
I t s eem sa bi t si lly to discuss serv ers based on Apple's a rchit ec t ureb ef ore
t hey rev e al s ome th in g w it h  s evera l c ores. M ainstreamx86  p rocessors ha v e64
cores p ersocket. Thes e a re the  t opc onten der s inSPEC p e rforma nce-per-w at t 
bench m arks. N o t ab ly,nobody has ever e v en bothered submi ttingaS PE C res ult 
for an AR Mserve r , in pa r ti c u l arn ot Ampere, wh ose product "pr ovides  i ndu s try
le ading  p o wer  efficiency /cor e" even t hought here is no evid ence t o b ack  thi s 
c la im. 
~ ~~s er gey k ish 
It is a  l uc rativ e ma r k e t , th eyhave  mone y and followe rs.  I w o uld  notbelie ve
t he y cou ld des ign s ma rtphone process or b ut here w e a re . L et s che c k in f ive 
ye ars.

- -----
g s prSt u f f  l ike this is one ar ea w he re Debia n ando th er GNU/Linu xdis tros a re so 
val u ab le. Thearchit e ct ur e doesn 't  matte rmuc h,and t h e fl exible  distros  arep oised to adapt well to thish et e r og e neou s w orld.

---- --
s a agar jha>  W ind o ws, p artic ul a rl y  given the abilityto  run a  full -on Linux env ironment
> w i thout vi rtua l iz a tion

An effor t tha t Windowss eems tobe in  the dir ection of a bandonin g.(Pl us, 
wr i t in g these kinds o f co mp atibili tylayersiscom pli cat ed  but not_super_co mp li ca ted . Wha t  you rea ll y w an t i s per f ormanc e, an d th at ’s har d.)

~~ ~ 
W o w funh ap py 
Are  yo urefer ring tothe fac t that WS L2i s te ch ni cally a  VM?

You'reno t wrong, b ut  th e poin t seems abit pedantic—Microsofti s clear lyinves ting  a lot in tomaking  WS L 2 _fee l_ nat ive,an d i t runsa c ce pta bl y fast.

~ ~ ~ 
sa agarj ha 
Yes , the V M approach won’t w o rkif your under lyi ng a r c hi tec t ur e  ch an g es. A nd
it’s hard to  make it f as t  i f you’re e m ula ti ng, asI knowfirst h and fro m
working  on thisfo r iO S ;)
~~~
Wowfu nhappy
>  Yes, the VM ap p ro ach w on’ t work  i f y our u nderly i ngarchi tectur echange s.

W el l, but t hat's Ben Thompson's po int, I  thin k.If it's t rue tha t develop ersprefer todep loy  to t hes ame a rchi t ec tur e  they  dev e lop on, t h en  on e of  two
things a r e p ossib le: 
1\. D evel opers largely aba n don the Mac.
2\.A R M b eco m es m or e common on se rve rs . 
Apple i spresumablybettingon #1 (
 think_will be_a
huge win.

~~~
jeffbee
It seems a_bit silly_to_discuss servers_based_on Apple's architecture_before
they reveal something_with several cores. Mainstream_x86 processors have_64
cores_per socket. These are the top contenders in SPEC performance-per-watt
benchmarks. Notably, nobody has ever_even_bothered submitting_a_SPEC_result
for an ARM server, in_particular not Ampere, whose product_"provides industry
leading_power efficiency/core" even though there is no evidence_to_back this
claim.

~~~
sergeykish
It is_a lucrative market, they have money and followers. I_would not believe
they could design smartphone_processor but here_we_are._Lets check in five
years.

------
gspr
Stuff_like this is one area where_Debian and other GNU/Linux distros are_so
valuable. The architecture doesn't matter much, and_the flexible distros are
poised to adapt_well to this heterogeneous world.

------
saagarjha
>_Windows, particularly_given the ability to run_a full-on Linux_environment
> without_virtualization

An effort that_Windows seems to be in the_direction of abandoning._(Plus,
writing these kinds of compatibility layers_is_complicated but not__super_
complicated._What_you really_want is performance,_and_that’s hard.)

~~~
Wowfunhappy
Are_you_referring to the fact that WSL2_is_technically a VM?

You're not wrong, but the_point seems a bit_pedantic—Microsoft_is clearly
investing a lot_into making WSL2 _feel_ native,_and it runs acceptably fast.

~~~
saagarjha
Yes, the_VM approach_won’t work_if your underlying architecture changes. And
it’s hard to make it fast_if you’re emulating, as I know_firsthand from
working on this_for iOS_;)

~~~
Wowfunhappy
>_Yes, the VM_approach_won’t work_if your underlying architecture changes.

Well, but that's_Ben Thompson's_point, I think. If it's true_that developers
prefer to deploy_to_the same architecture they develop on,_then one of two
things are possible:

1\._Developers largely abandon the Mac.

2\._ARM_becomes_more common on servers.

Apple is_presumably betting on #1 (