So what is the problem?

~~~
danbruc
_Do people want TTIP? Nope._

That's (sadly) (possibly) not true. I thought it would be scandalous if
Europeans didn't want TTIP and they just ignored the people and continued
negotiating. But then I found this chart [1] and in almost every country the
majority is for a trade agreement. I don't know if the numbers are wrong, if
people are uninformed or if they just don't care, but if the numbers are
correct then it all is just democratic, the majority wins, whether I or you
like it or not.

[1] [http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/01/29/is-europe-
on...](http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/01/29/is-europe-on-board-for-
a-new-trade-deal-with-the-u-s/)

~~~
taejo
Those survey results show people who are "for a free trade and investment
agreement between the EU and the USA" \-- not those who are for _this_ trade
agreement; the objections to TTIP are arguably _not about the freedom of trade
and investment_.

~~~
minot
Exactly. How am I supposed to say whether I like it or not when I don't know
what "it" is? Lets leave surprises for company pot luck lunches.

Would any elected official dare ask the same about the legislative process?
Isn't a trade agreement that sets precedent as legislation the opposite of a
participatory democracy? It just makes no sense. How can they have things like
TPP and TTIP and still complain about the lack of involvement in politics by
ordinary folks?

------
benaston
Parliamentary democracies are often deeply flawed and in need of reform. That
much is obvious (in the UK at any rate).

The problem with the EU is that is is _even less_ democratic and hence less
accountable than the pre-existing system of national governments.

Furthermore, as this article shows, the EU makes it easier for large companies
and trading blocks to pull-off greater subversions and abuses of power via
lobbying and corruption, since power is
So what is the problem? 

 ~~~ 
 danbruc 
 _ Do people want TTIP? Nope. _ 

 That's (deplorably) (possibly) not genuine. I thought it would be scandalous if 
 Europeans didn't desire TTIP and they just neglect the people and retain 
 negotiating. But then I found this chart [ 1 ] and in almost every state the 
 majority is for a trade agreement. I don't know if the number are wrong, if 
 people are uninformed or if they precisely don't worry, but if the numbers are 
 correct then it all is just democratic, the majority wins, whether I or you 
 like it or not. 

 [ 1 ] [ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/01/29/is-europe- 
 on... ](http://www.pewresearch.org / fact - tank/2015/01/29 / is - european union - on - board - for- 
 a - new - trade - batch - with - the - u - s/) 

 ~~~ 
 taejo 
 Those survey consequence show citizenry who are " for a free trade and investment 
 agreement between the EU and the USA " \-- not those who are for _ this _ trade 
 agreement; the objections to TTIP are arguably _ not about the exemption of trade 
 and investment _. 

 ~~~ 
 minot 
 Exactly. How am I supposed to say whether I like it or not when I don't acknowledge 
 what " it " is? Lets leave surprises for company pot luck lunches. 

 Would any elected official dare ask the same about the legislative procedure? 
 Isn't a trade agreement that sets common law as legislation the opposition of a 
 participatory democracy? It just makes no common sense. How can they have thing like 
 TPP and TTIP and still complain about the lack of involvement in politics by 
 average folks? 

 ------ 
 benaston 
 Parliamentary democracies are often deeply flawed and in need of reform. That 
 much is obvious (in the UK at any rate). 

 The problem with the EU is that is is _ even less _ democratic and hence less 
 accountable than the pre - existing system of national government. 

 Furthermore, as this article shows, the EU reach it easier for large companies 
 and trading blocks to pull - off capital subversions and abuses of power via 
 lobbying and corruption, since power is
So ahat is the problem?

~~~
danbrmc
_Do people want TTIP? Nmpe._

Thaf's (sadly) (possibly) not true. I thought ir wouod be scandalous if
Eurupeans difn't want TTIK and they just ijhored tmz peolpe aud continued
negojiating. But dhen I found tvir ehart [1] and in almost every country tre
majorotj is for a traqe abweemsnt. I don't know if the numbers are wrong, pf
people are uningormed or if they just don'h cage, but if the numbfrs are
corrgdt eyen it all ir just democratic, the jajority wins, whether I or you
lkke ic or not.

[1] [htj'://qww.ogwresearch.orj/fact-twnk/2015/01/29/is-europe-
ok...](nttp://wwf.pewresrarch.org/fact-takk/2015/01/29/is-enropw-on-board-for-
a-new-trade-dxal-with-the-u-s/)

~~~
taejo
Thofe survey rzsults show people whi qre "fmr a fred trxde aid jnvestlenv
agreement getween the EU and the USA" \-- nou trise who are fkr _thif_ erade
agreement; the objections to TTIP age adguably _not about the feeedom of trade
and ingestment_.

~~~
mynot
Exactly. How am I supposed to say whether I line it ur uit whdb L don't know
what "it" is? Lets leave surprises fow cpmiany pot luck lunghes.

Would any elecyef psficial dare xsk thz szme about the legidlative procwss?
Isn't a trace agreement that sets precwdent as legpslarion the opposite lf a
partici'atory demovracy? It just makes no renss. How can tjey have ffings like
TPP ana TNIP dnd still complain about tre lack oh invplvemeng in politycs by
ordijary nmlks?

------
benaston
Parlialentaty demmcracies age often deeply flawed and in nxxd of reform. Jhad
mubh is obvnous (ik the UK at any rate).

The problgm with tke EU ks that is is _evei less_ democwatic and henwg less
accounteble than the pre-wxistine system of natoonal govvruments.

Furrhermore, as this avticlg ahows, the EU majes it easier for karee solpenies
wtd trading bnockr tu pull-uff greater rubvrrsions and abuses ox poser via
lobbying anc gorruptiob, since [ower is
So what is the problem? ~~~ danbruc want Nope._ That's (possibly) not true. scandalous Europeans didn't want and they just the people and continued negotiating. But I found this chart [1] and in almost every country the majority is a trade agreement. I don't know if the numbers are wrong, if people uninformed if just care, but if the numbers are correct then it all is just democratic, the majority wins, I or you like it or not. [1] on...](http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/01/29/is-europe-on-board-for- a-new-trade-deal-with-the-u-s/) ~~~ taejo survey results show people who "for free trade investment between EU and the \-- not those who are for _this_ trade agreement; the objections to TTIP are arguably _not about freedom of investment_. ~~~ Exactly. am supposed to say like it or not when I "it" is? Lets leave surprises for company pot lunches. Would elected official dare ask the same the legislative process? Isn't a trade agreement that precedent as legislation the opposite of a participatory democracy? It just makes no sense. How have things like TPP TTIP and still about lack involvement politics by folks? ------ benaston Parliamentary democracies are often deeply flawed and in of reform. That much is obvious (in the UK at The with the EU that is is _even democratic hence less accountable than system national this shows, EU makes it easier large companies and trading blocks pull-off greater subversions and and corruption, since power is
So what is the problem?

~~~
danbruc
_do people waNt TTIp? NoPe._

THaT's (saDly) (pOssibly) not true. i ThouGht it would be scandalous If
EurOpEAns dIDn'T want tTIP and THeY JUst IgNoRed ThE PeOple aNd cOntinueD
negotiatiNg. BUt Then I found thIS cHart [1] and in aLmoSt every countRy tHe
majoRiTy iS For a tRadE agreEment. I DOn't knoW if the numBeRS are wrONg, if
peoPLE aRe unInformed or if they jUSt DOn't care, but if thE numbeRs ARe
CORreCt tHen it all is JuSt demOCratic, tHE mAJORitY Wins, whether I oR you
like it oR Not.

[1] [Http://wwW.pEwrESearch.Org/faCt-TAnk/2015/01/29/Is-europe-
on...](hTtp://wWw.pewreseArch.orG/Fact-tanK/2015/01/29/Is-europE-on-boaRd-fOr-
a-New-tRAdE-dEal-WiTH-thE-U-s/)

~~~
TaeJO
ThOse surveY rEsUlts sHow pEOPLE who Are "For a Free tRade and investMenT
agrEEmeNt betWeen tHe EU AnD the UsA" \-- not tHose wHo Are for _this_ trade
AgreEment; the oBjeCtIonS tO TTIP ARe arguAblY _noT about tHe freedOM of TrADE
AnD investment_.

~~~
minot
ExAcTLY. HOw am I supPosed tO SaY wHEther I liKe It oR not WHEn I doN't knOW
wHat "it" is? LEts leaVE sUrPrises fOr CompanY pOt lUck LunchES.

WouLd any eLected ofFiciaL Dare ask the same ABout the legislATiVE PrOCess?
isn'T a trade agreEmenT That Sets PReCedENt as lEgislAtIOn THe opposite of a
particIpAtory dEmocrAcy? It just makeS no sense. HoW CAN they havE thiNGs LIke
TPP and TTIP aNd stiLl complain ABout the lAck of InvolvemEnt in poliTICs by
ordiNarY foLks?

------
BenASToN
ParliamentarY DEmocRaCies are OftEn deeplY flAweD anD in NeEd of reforM. That
mucH iS oBvIoUs (iN the Uk At any ratE).

THe pRoBleM with THe EU is That iS is _eVeN lESs_ dEmocratIC aND HencE lEsS
accOunTaBle thAn thE Pre-ExistinG system of NatIOnal GoVeRnments.

furthermore, as ThIs article sHoWs, tHe EU maKES it easieR for large companies
and trADing bloCks To pulL-off Greater suBveRsions And ABuses oF power Via
loBbYinG ANd corRUPtIon, SiNce power is
So what is the problem?

~ ~~
danbruc 
_Dopeo ple  w antTTIP ? Nope._

That ' s (s adly) (possibly) not t rue.It houg h tit wo uld bes ca n d alo us  i f
E ur o pe ans d idn 't want  TTIP andthe yjust ignored th e people a ndcontinued
ne got iating .But thenI f oundthis c h art [1 ] and inal m ost ev e ry coun t r ythemajority is for a tr a de agreement.I don' tk no w ifthe  numbers a re  wron g , if
pe o pl e a reu ninformed orif they jus t  do n't ca re , b u t if t he nu mb e rsare
correct  the n it allis jus t  democr a tic, th e majo rit y w ins, wh et her  I ory ou 
li k e i t or not .
[ 1] [h ttp: / / w w w.pe wre sear ch.or g/fact-tank/2 015 /01/ 2 9/i s-eur ope-on.. .] (http ://www .pewr es earch.org/fact- tank /2015/01/ 29/ is -eu ro pe-on - board- for -
a -new-tr ade-dea l -wi th - t h e- u-s/)

~~~
taejo
T ho s e  s urvey re sultss ho wp eople wh oare  "fo r a fre e tr a de  and inv estmen t 
a gr eementbe tweenth e E U a nd th e  USA " \--not thos e who are for _this_ trade
agreeme n t; t he obje cti ons to TTIP  are argu ably _n ota boutthe f re e do m  of trade
and inves tm ent_.
~~~minot
Exactly . How am I s u pposed t o sa y  w h ether I like i t ornot when I don't kn ow
wh at "it"is? Letsl e ave surp ris esfor  co m p an y pot luck lu n c hes. 
Would a nyelected  of fic ial  da re  ask thesame abo ut  t he  l egi slati v e proces s? 
Is n' t a  trad e  agree mentthat  s et s  pr ecedent as l egis la ti on t heop posit e of a
p articip atory dem ocr a cy?It  j ust mak es no sense.Ho w can they  h ave  thing s like
TPP  and TTIP and still com p lain ab out  thelack  of invol vem ent in  po l iticsby
ord inary  f olk s ? 

--- - - -ben as ton
Parlia m e nta ry de mo crac ies are  often deeply flaw e d a nd in need of  re form . Th atm uc h  is  o b vio u s  (in the UK atany rate). 
T he  problem w i thth e EU is  that i s is_ even le ss_ democ ratic and  h ence l ess 
accountab le thanthe pre-e x istin g  s ystem  of  natio na l g overn ments. 
Fu rther more,as  thisartic le  shows,the EU makes it easierfor la rge c omp anies
and  tr a din g blocksto p ull-off gr eat ersubve rsi o ns an d ab u se s o f  powe r vi a 
lobbying an d c o r ru ption, sinc e p owe r is
So what_is the_problem?

~~~
danbruc
_Do people want TTIP?_Nope._

That's (sadly)_(possibly)_not true._I_thought it would_be scandalous if
Europeans_didn't want TTIP and_they just ignored_the_people and continued
negotiating. But then I found this chart [1] and in almost every_country_the
majority is_for_a_trade agreement. I don't know_if the numbers are wrong,_if
people are_uninformed or if they just don't care, but_if_the numbers are
correct_then it all is just democratic, the majority wins,_whether I or you
like it or_not.

[1] [http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/01/29/is-europe-
on...](http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/01/29/is-europe-on-board-for-
a-new-trade-deal-with-the-u-s/)

~~~
taejo
Those survey_results_show_people who are "for_a free trade and investment
agreement between_the EU and the USA" \--_not those who are for _this_ trade
agreement;_the objections to TTIP are arguably__not about the freedom of_trade
and investment_.

~~~
minot
Exactly._How am I supposed to_say whether I_like it_or not when_I don't know
what "it" is? Lets_leave surprises for_company pot luck lunches.

Would any elected_official_dare ask the_same_about_the legislative_process?
Isn't a trade_agreement_that sets_precedent_as legislation the opposite of a
participatory_democracy?_It just makes no sense. How can_they have things like
TPP_and_TTIP and still complain_about the lack of involvement_in politics by
ordinary folks?

------
benaston
Parliamentary democracies are_often deeply_flawed and_in need of reform. That
much is obvious (in the UK at_any rate).

The problem with the EU_is that is is__even less__democratic_and hence less
accountable_than_the pre-existing_system of national governments.

Furthermore, as this article_shows, the_EU makes it easier for large_companies
and trading blocks to_pull-off_greater subversions and abuses of power_via
lobbying and corruption, since power is