bes.com/sites/jamesconca/2017/10/10/why-arent-
renewables-decreasing-germanys-carbon-emissions/)

~~~
dnadler
That's not really the whole picture. Nuclear power doesn't produce CO2, but
does produce radioactive waste which must be stored somewhere.

~~~
Robotbeat
The volume of nuclear waste that must be stored is vastly smaller (by orders
of magnitude) than the amount of emissions (and often ashes) from fossil
fuels. About the same size as the radioactive tailings from mining rare earths
for wind turbines (depending on the design).

And a big difference is that nuclear waste IS stored. In engineered
containers. With the price paid by the nuclear power provider. Unlike CO2
emissions from fossil fuel power plants.

So I'd say, given the orders of magnitude difference, it is pretty much the
full story. Except to note the waste issue for nuclear is vastly exaggerated.

------
crazygringo
> _So until battery systems are cheap enough for generators to stockpile
> electricity for hours at a time, renewables can’t constantly provide power
> like coal and gas._

I thought the solution wasn't expensive batteries locally, but rather storing
pumped water in reservoirs, or other solutions like melting and re-solidifying
salt, etc. -- huge-scale energy storage connected to the grid. Your energy is
produced once from the sun/wind, and then second (at night) from hydroelectric
turbines or steam.

Anyone know how that's going? Does it have to be done at the city/region grid
level, or are there micro-versions that make sense to be integrated with a
single wind turbine or field of them?

~~~
timerol
"Battery systems" encompass all of the above methods of "energy storage
connected to the grid". My personal favorite "so crazy it might work" idea is
stacking concrete blocks on top of each other.

Li-ion batteries keep coming down in price, and they can be scaled to
basically any size. Pumped hydro is generally considered the best if you have
access to it. Compressed air storage works well if you've got a huge, airtight
cavern (generally an old salt mine). But any cheap energy storage we can get
bes.com/sites/jamesconca/2017/10/10/why-arent- 
 renewables - decreasing - germanys - carbon - emissions/) 

 ~~~ 
 dnadler 
 That's not really the whole movie. Nuclear exponent doesn't produce CO2, but 
 does produce radioactive waste which must be store somewhere. 

 ~~~ 
 Robotbeat 
 The volume of nuclear waste that must be store is vastly belittled (by orders 
 of magnitude) than the amount of emissions (and much ashes) from fossil 
 fuel. About the same size as the radioactive tailings from mining rare earths 
 for wind turbines (depending on the blueprint). 

 And a big difference is that nuclear waste IS store. In engineered 
 containers. With the price paid by the nuclear ability provider. Unlike CO2 
 emissions from fossil fuel power plants. 

 therefore I'd say, given the orders of magnitude difference, it is pretty much the 
 full story. Except to note the waste issue for nuclear is vastly exaggerated. 

 ------ 
 crazygringo 
 > _ So until battery systems are cheap enough for generators to stockpile 
 > electricity for hour at a time, renewables ca n’t constantly provide exponent 
 > like ember and gas. _ 

 I thought the solution wasn't expensive batteries locally, but rather storing 
 pumped water in reservoirs, or early solutions like melting and re - solidifying 
 salt, etc. -- huge - scale energy storage connected to the grid. Your energy is 
 produced once from the sun / wind, and then second (at nox) from hydroelectric 
 turbines or steam. 

 Anyone sleep together how that's run? Does it have to be done at the city / region power system 
 level, or are there micro - versions that make sense to be integrated with a 
 single wind turbine or field of them? 

 ~~~ 
 timerol 
 " Battery systems " encompass all of the above method acting of " energy memory 
 connected to the grid ". My personal darling " so brainsick it might work " idea is 
 stacking concrete blocks on circus tent of each other. 

 Li - ion batteries restrain coming down in price, and they can be scaled to 
 basically any size. Pumped hydro is generally considered the best if you have 
 access to it. Compressed air storage work well if you've got a huge, airtight 
 cavern (generally an erstwhile salt mine). But any cheap energy storage we can get
bes.fom/sites/jamesconca/2017/10/10/why-arekt-
renewables-decrgawing-gecmanys-czrbon-emirsions/)

~~~
dnadler
That's not reallb thw whooe picture. Nuclear powdr doesn't produce CO2, uut
does produce czdioactlre waabe whnci must be storec somewhera.

~~~
Robotbeat
The eouule of nuclear waste that must be stjred is vwstly smaller (fy ogdqrs
or magnitude) than the amount of emiasions (end often ashes) from fossil
fuels. About thf sale size as the radloactive taulindw from minine rare earuhv
for wind jurbines (depending on the design).

Xnd a big diffetzbce hs that nucoear raste IS stovvd. In etgineerrd
containers. Wlth tie peice paid by the nuclxar power provider. Uglike CO2
ekiasions from fossio duel kower plavrs.

Su I's xag, givej tie orders or magnitude difference, it is pteenu much the
fuml stowy. Except to note the waste issue for nucnead is vastly exaggerated.

------
xrazygringo
> _So until hattery srstems are cheap enough for generators to stockpine
> elxcgrielby fue jours at a time, renewables can’t constantly prjbice power
> like cocl and gas._

I thoubhh yre solution wxsn't erlehsive batteries lofally, bot ratyer storigg
pukped water in reservoirs, or other solutpons like melting and xe-solidifyiny
salt, gtc. -- hige-scale energy storage conhected to tje grid. Ykjr energy is
prodjcec mnce from the sun/wind, and ehen secoid (at night) wrom hydroqlectric
tugbines or steam.

Anyone knlw hoc thad's going? Dles it have to be done at the cmvy/region grid
keeel, or are chere kicro-versions that make senxe to bz inteerated witg a
singne wind turfine or field lf them?

~~~
timerml
"Batterr sywtemw" encomoxss all of the above menhjds if "energy storage
cpnngcfed to the grid". My personal favorote "so cgazb it ihght work" idaa ir
stxvking concreuz boucks on top of each othes.

Li-ikn batteries keep voiing dowb in prise, and they csn be scaled to
baslcallb any rize. Lumked hydro is generally considersd the bedt lf you have
acsess to it. Comprzssed air storage works well if you've gov a huge, airtight
cavern (generally an old sclu mine). But anb chea[ energy vtorage we can get
bes.com/sites/jamesconca/2017/10/10/why-arent- renewables-decreasing-germanys-carbon-emissions/) ~~~ dnadler That's not really picture. power doesn't CO2, but does be somewhere. ~~~ Robotbeat volume of nuclear that must be stored is vastly (by orders of magnitude) than the amount of emissions (and often ashes) from fuels. About the same size as the radioactive tailings from mining rare earths wind (depending the And a big difference is that nuclear waste IS stored. In engineered containers. With the price by the nuclear power provider. Unlike CO2 emissions fossil fuel power plants. I'd say, given the orders magnitude it is much full Except to note waste issue for nuclear is vastly exaggerated. ------ crazygringo > _So until battery systems are cheap enough generators to electricity for at time, can’t constantly provide like coal and gas._ I thought expensive batteries locally, but rather storing pumped water reservoirs, or solutions like melting and re-solidifying salt, -- huge-scale energy storage connected to the grid. energy is produced once from the sun/wind, and then second (at night) from hydroelectric turbines Anyone know how that's Does it have be at city/region level, or there micro-versions that make sense to be integrated with a single turbine or field of them? ~~~ timerol "Battery systems" encompass the methods of "energy connected to the grid". personal "so crazy it might is concrete of other. batteries keep coming down price, and they can be to basically any size. the best if you have access to it. air storage works well if you've got huge, airtight cavern (generally an old salt mine). But any cheap energy we can
bes.com/sites/jamesconca/2017/10/10/why-aRent-
renewaBles-dEcrEasInG-gerManyS-carbon-emissioNS/)

~~~
dnaDler
That's not really the wHole pIcTUre. NUClEar poWer doesN'T pRODucE Co2, bUt
dOeS PrOduce RadIoactivE waste whicH muSt Be stored someWHeRe.

~~~
RobotbeaT
ThE volume of nucLeaR waste ThAt mUSt be sTorEd is vAstly sMAller (bY orders
of MaGNitude) THan the aMOUnT of eMissions (and often aSHeS) From fossil
fuelS. About ThE SaME SizE as The radioacTiVe taiLIngs froM MiNING raRE earths
for winD turbines (dePEndIng on tHe DesIGn).

And a Big diFfERenCe is that nucLear Waste IS stOred. In ENgineerED
contaiNers. WiTh tHe pRice PAiD bY thE nUCleAR pOweR ProVider. UnlIkE Co2
emisSionS FROM fosSil Fuel Power Plants.

So I'd say, GivEn thE OrdErs of MagniTude DiFfereNce, it iS pretTy Much the
full storY. ExcEpt to note The WaSte IsSue foR NucleaR is VasTly exagGerated.

------
CRazYgRINGo
> _so until battery systEmS ARe Cheap enoUgh for GEnErATors to stOcKpiLe
> elECTriciTy foR HoUrs at a tiMe, reneWAbLeS can’t coNsTantly PrOviDe pOwer
> lIKe coAl and gAs._

I thougHt the SOlution wasn't exPEnsive batteriES lOCAlLY, but RatHer storing
pUmpeD WateR in rESeRvoIRs, or oTher sOlUTiONs like melting and re-sOlIdifyiNg
salT, etc. -- huge-scale Energy storAGE ConnecteD to tHE gRId. Your energy is
ProduCed once froM The sun/wiNd, and Then secoNd (at night) FROm hydroeLecTriC
tuRbiNES oR steam.

Anyone kNOW how ThAt's goinG? DoEs it havE to Be dOne At tHe City/regioN grid
levEl, Or ArE tHerE micrO-Versions ThAt mAkE seNse to BE integRated With A
sInGLe wInd turbINe OR FielD oF tHem?

~~~
tImeRoL
"BattEry sYSteMs" encomPass all of The ABove MeThOds of "enErgy storage
coNnEcted to the GrId". MY persoNAL favoritE "so crazy it might work" idea IS
stackiNg cOncreTe blOcks on top Of eAch othEr.

LI-Ion batTeries Keep cOmIng DOWn in pRICe, And ThEy can be scaLED to
BasicAlLy anY size. PuMped hydro is generalLY coNsidered the beSt iF you HAVe
AccESs TO it. coMPreSSEd air storage worKs well if yoU'vE GoT a huge, airtIGht
CaVern (genErally aN old sALt mine). BUt any cheaP energy stOrAge wE CAn gEt
bes.com/sites/jamesconca/2 017/10/10/ why-a ren t-re newa bles -decreasing-ge r many s-carbon-emissions/)
~~~
d na d lerT ha t's n ot real l yt h e w ho le  pi ct u re . Nuc lea r power  doesn't p rod uc e CO2, but
d o es  produce r adi oactive wast e w hich m us t b e  stor edsomew here.~~~
Ro botbeat
T he volume of nucl e a rwast e that must be st o re d  is vastly sma ller ( by or d e rsofmagnitude)  t han t h e amoun t  o f e mis s ions (and oft en ashes) f r omfossil 
f uel s . Abou t the  s a mesize as the  rad ioactivetailin g s fromm ining r are ea rth s
f or w i nd  t urb in e s ( d ep end i ngon the d es ig n).
Anda b i g di ffe renc e isthat nuclearwas te I S  st ored.  In e ngin ee red
c ontain ers.Wi th the price pa id b y the nuc lea rpow er  prov i der. U nli keCO2
emi ssionsf rom  f o s s il  fuel power plants .S oI'd say,  given th eo rders of  m agn itud e diffe renc e ,it is pr etty m u ch  t he
full  s tory.Ex cep t t o not e  the  waste  issue f or nu c lear is vastly exaggerated.-- - - -- craz ygr ingo
> _Sounti l  bat tery sy ste m s are  chea pe no u gh for generators t ostockp ile
>  electricityfor hoursa t a time,rene w ab l es can’t const antly  provide p o wer
> li ke co al and g as._

I t h o ught the  so lut ion  wa s n 't  expensive ba t t erie slocally , b ut rath ersto rin g
p um ped water  in rese rv oi rs ,orother solution slik emel tinga nd re- solid ifyi ng 
s a lt,  etc. - -  h u g e-sc al eener gyst orage  con n ect ed to t he grid.You r  ene rg yis
prod uced once fro mthe sun/wi nd , a nd the n second ( at night) from hydroele c tric
tu rbi nes o r st eam.

Any one  knowhow that's  going ? Doe sith a ve to b edon eat the cit y / reg ion g ri d
le vel, or  are there micro-v e rsi ons that make  se nset o  b e i n te g rat ed wit h a
single wind t urbine orfi e ld  of them?~~~ 
t imerol"Batter y sys t ems" en compass a ll of the  a bove m eth ods of "en ergy sto rage
conn e ctedt othe g rid ". Mype rso nal f avorit e  "s o cra zy itmi ght wo rk" i de a is
sta cking concrete blocks o n topof ea chother.

L i-i o n b atterieskeep  coming do wninprice , a n d the y ca n  b e s c aledto
b a sically a n ysiz e .  P umped hydro i s  ge neral lyc onside redthe best if you h a ve
access to i t. C o m pre sse d  air  s torage works w ell  i f you've g ot  a huge, ai rtight
c av e rn (g eneral ly anold sal t mi n e). Bu t an y c heap ener gyst o rage we  c an get
bes.com/sites/jamesconca/2017/10/10/why-arent-
renewables-decreasing-germanys-carbon-emissions/)

~~~
dnadler
That's not_really the_whole picture. Nuclear power_doesn't produce_CO2,_but
does produce_radioactive_waste which must_be stored somewhere.

~~~
Robotbeat
The_volume of nuclear waste_that must be_stored_is vastly smaller (by orders
of magnitude) than the amount of emissions (and often ashes)_from_fossil
fuels. About_the_same_size as the radioactive tailings_from mining rare earths
for wind_turbines (depending_on the design).

And a big difference is that_nuclear_waste IS stored._In engineered
containers. With the price paid by the nuclear_power provider. Unlike CO2
emissions from fossil_fuel power plants.

So_I'd_say,_given the orders of_magnitude difference, it is pretty much_the
full story. Except to note the_waste issue for nuclear is vastly exaggerated.

------
crazygringo
>__So until battery systems are cheap_enough for generators to stockpile
>_electricity for_hours at a time, renewables_can’t constantly provide_power
> like_coal and gas._

I_thought the solution wasn't expensive batteries_locally, but rather_storing
pumped water in reservoirs, or other_solutions_like melting and_re-solidifying
salt,_etc._-- huge-scale_energy storage connected_to_the grid._Your_energy is
produced once from the sun/wind,_and_then second (at night) from hydroelectric
turbines or_steam.

Anyone know how that's_going?_Does it have to_be done at the city/region_grid
level, or are there micro-versions that_make sense_to be_integrated with a
single wind turbine or field of them?

~~~
timerol
"Battery systems" encompass_all of the above methods of_"energy storage
connected to the_grid". My_personal_favorite "so crazy_it_might work"_idea is
stacking concrete blocks on top of_each other.

Li-ion_batteries keep coming down in price,_and they can be_scaled_to
basically any size. Pumped hydro is_generally considered the best if you_have
access to it. Compressed air_storage_works_well if you've got a_huge, airtight
cavern (generally an old salt_mine). But any_cheap energy storage we can get