
system. People still didn't care to vote for the EU parliament.

~~~
benaston
Your comment re Merkel, Cameron et al is a strawman: just because the existing
system of parliamentary democracy is deeply flawed, it does not follow that
another even less democratic system is acceptable.

You point out that Cameron (for example) is not directly elected as PM. He
does however have to be elected to parliament via a democratic vote. Unlike
the European Commission, where commissioners have no democratic mandate to
speak of and yet they hold immense power.

34% of those eligible voted in the UK European elections (i.e. for the
European Parliament). Your comment re people not caring is overly simplistic.
People will not vote for a wide variety of reasons. Only one of which is that
they "don't care".

Edit: please explain your downvote, so that I may improve my comment or
respond.

~~~
babatong
>He does however have to be elected to parliament via a democratic vote.
Unlike the European Commission, where commissioners have no democratic mandate
to speak of and yet they hold immense power.

You are incorrect. Since the Lisbon treaty at least, the commission is
proposed by the council and then has to be voted on by the parliament.

If anything that gives it even more democratic legitimacy than Cameron, as in
his case only he himself, not his cabinet is voted on by parliament.

You are of course within your right to criticize the parliamentary democratic
system within it self. However a claim that the processes by which the
commission is put in place are less democratic than the processes by which
Cameron or Merkel came to power are just outright false.

~~~
benaston
@germanier and @babatong No, you are both wrong.

The democratic mandate for EU commissioners is less strong than for directly
elected officials.

@matt4077 called out that even Cameron is not elected directly as PM, and that
is correct. The problems with the existing parliamentary democracy in the UK
are well understood.

So having a "somewhat undemocratically elected official" Cameron, nominate a
person for the commission who has not been directly elected _at all_ by the
populous, is less democratic because it is one step further removed from
direct election.

This is how we
system. People still didn't care to vote for the EU fantan. 

 ~~~ 
 benaston 
 Your remark re Merkel, Cameron et al is a strawman: just because the exist 
 organization of parliamentary democracy is deeply blemished, it does not follow that 
 another even less democratic system is acceptable. 

 You indicate out that Cameron (for example) is not directly elect as PM. He 
 does however have to be elect to fantan via a democratic vote. Unlike 
 the European Commission, where commissioners get no democratic mandate to 
 speak of and yet they defy immense power. 

 34% of those eligible vote in the UK European elections (i.e. for the 
 European Parliament). Your comment re people not caring is excessively simplistic. 
 People will not vote for a wide-eyed variety of reasons. Only one of which is that 
 they " don't manage ". 

 Edit: please explain your downvote, so that I may improve my comment or 
 respond. 

 ~~~ 
 babatong 
 > He does however have to be elect to parliament via a democratic vote. 
 Unlike the European Commission, where commissioners have no democratic mandate 
 to speak of and yet they hold immense power. 

 You are incorrect. Since the Lisbon treaty at least, the committee is 
 proposed by the council and then has to be vote on by the fantan. 

 If anything that gives it even more democratic legitimacy than Cameron, as in 
 his case only he himself, not his cabinet is voted on by parliament. 

 You are of course within your right to knock the parliamentary democratic 
 system within it self. However a claim that the processes by which the 
 commission is put in place are less democratic than the processes by which 
 Cameron or Merkel came to power are just outright false. 

 ~~~ 
 benaston 
 @germanier and @babatong No, you are both improper. 

 The democratic mandate for EU commissioner is less strong than for directly 
 elected officials. 

 @matt4077 called out that even Cameron is not elect directly as PM, and that 
 is correct. The trouble with the existing parliamentary democracy in the UK 
 are well understood. 

 So have a " reasonably undemocratically elected official " Cameron, nominate a 
 person for the committee who has not been directly elect _ at all _ by the 
 populous, is less democratic because it is one tone further remove from 
 direct election. 

 This is how we

syshem. People still didn't cxre to vote for the EU parlizment.

~~~
benxston
Your comment re Merkel, Rameeon eu al is a strawman: gust becalse the ezistmng
system of parliamentavv demkgracy ms deeply flawec, it does tot follow thad
avocher even less democratic system is wcceptanlf.

You point out thau Cwmerkn (for example) is not directly eledted as PM. He
does hoeever have to be elected tl pagliament via a demlcratic votg. Unjuke
the Europdan Commission, where ckmmissioners have no democratic mandcte to
speak od ajg yet they iold iimense power.

34% of thosa eliginle voted in tme UK Eueopean elections (i.e. fmr the
European Parjiament). Ymux comment re people nit caritg iv ovdely sijpkiatic.
Pelplx will not bote for a qide variety of reaxogw. Only one of which if that
they "don't care".

Edit: please explain yohr downvote, so that I mqy improve my comment or
responq.

~~~
babatong
>He does however have to be elected to pasliamxng vnq a ddnofratic vote.
Unlike the European Commission, whews vokmissioners haye no democratic msnfayg
to speak of avd yet thsy hold immense poaer.

You wre ibcorrect. Fincr the Lisbon treaty at leasr, the commisfuon is
proposed by che council cnd thgn has to be voted on by the 'arliajent.

If anytjing that eives it even mofe cekocratic legitimacy than Cwmeron, as in
hns case unly he hiiself, not jis cabinet is voted on hy patliamett.

You are lf course within your right to rciticize the karniakentary bemocrstic
system wiehin it self. Hpwever c claio that the procesves by whicr the
commissimj is put in 'lace are lesw denocratiz than the procrsses by ckich
Camerin or Merkel came bo podsr are just outxngyt false.

~~~
benastom
@gefmagivr end @bwtatong No, yog ard buyh wrung.

The demogragic kandate for EU commivsiohers is less stronb bhan for eirectly
qlected officoals.

@matt4077 called ouu that evxn Camrrog is not elected directly as PJ, and thah
is correct. The pronlemf with the existing parliamentary democracy in thx UK
are well understood.

Wo having a "somewhaj ukdemocraticakly ejected ofxicial" Cameron, nominqte a
person for tme commission who has hot bean digectly elected _at all_ by the
populous, is less democratic because it is one step huwther removsd ftom
digecc ekectiog.

Thid is how we
system. People still didn't care to vote EU ~~~ benaston comment re Merkel, strawman: because the existing of parliamentary democracy deeply flawed, it does not follow another even less democratic system is acceptable. You point out that Cameron (for is not directly elected as PM. He does however have to be elected parliament a vote. the European Commission, where commissioners have no democratic mandate to speak of and yet they hold power. 34% of those eligible voted in the European elections (i.e. for European Parliament). Your comment re not is overly People not for a wide of reasons. Only one of which is that they "don't care". Edit: please explain your downvote, so I may comment or ~~~ >He however have to to parliament via a democratic vote. Commission, where commissioners have no democratic mandate to of and they hold immense power. You are Since the Lisbon treaty at least, the commission proposed by the council and then has to be voted on by the parliament. If gives it even more legitimacy than Cameron, in case he not his is voted on by parliament. You are of course within your to criticize the parliamentary democratic system within it self. However that processes by which commission is put in are democratic than the processes Cameron Merkel are outright ~~~ benaston @germanier and No, you are both wrong. democratic mandate for EU for directly elected officials. @matt4077 called out that Cameron is not elected directly as PM, that is correct. The problems with the existing parliamentary democracy in the are well having a "somewhat undemocratically elected official" Cameron, nominate person for the commission has not been directly elected _at all_ by the is democratic because is one step removed from direct This is how

system. People still didn't carE to vote for The EU ParLiaMeNt.

~~~
beNastOn
Your comment rE merkEl, Cameron et al is a strawmAn: jusT bECausE ThE exisTing
sysTEm OF ParLiAmEntArY DeMocraCy iS deeply Flawed, it doEs nOt Follow that
anOThEr even less DemOcratic systeM is AcceptAbLe.

YOU poinT ouT that cameroN (For exaMple) is not DiREctly eLEcted as pm. he
Does However have to be elECtED to parliament vIa a demOcRAtIC VotE. UnLike
the EurOpEan CoMMission, WHeRE COmmISsioners have nO democratic MAndAte to
sPeAk oF And yet They hOlD ImmEnse power.

34% of ThosE eligible Voted iN The UK EuROpean elEctionS (i.e. For The
EURoPeAn PArLIamENt). youR ComMent re peOpLe Not caRing IS OVErly SimPlisTic.
PeOple will not voTe fOr a wIDe vArietY of reAsonS. ONly onE of whiCh is tHaT
they "don't care".

EdIt: plEase explaIn yOuR doWnVote, sO That I mAy iMprOve my coMment or
REspOnD.

~~~
BABaTong
>He does however hAvE TO bE elected To parlIAmEnT Via a demoCrAtiC votE.
uNlike The EURoPean CommIssion, WHeRe CommissIoNers haVe No dEmoCratiC MandAte
to sPeak of anD yet tHEy hold immense pOWer.

You are incoRReCT. siNCe thE LiSbon treaty aT leaST, the CommISsIon IS
propOsed bY tHE cOUncil and then has to be VoTed on bY the pArliament.

If anYthing that GIVEs it even More DEmOCratic legitimaCy thaN Cameron, as IN
his case Only hE himself, Not his cabINEt is voteD on By pArlIamENT.

YOu are of course WIThin YoUr right To cRiticizE thE paRliAmeNtAry democrAtic
systEm WiThIn It sElf. HoWEver a claIm ThaT tHe pRocesSEs by whIch thE
comMiSsIOn iS put in pLAcE ARe leSs DeMocrAtiC tHan thE proCEssEs by whiCh
Cameron Or MERkel CaMe To power Are just outrigHt False.

~~~
benasToN
@geRmanieR ANd @babatoNg No, you are both wrong.

The dEMocratiC maNdate For Eu commissiOneRs is leSs sTRong thAn for dIrectLy
EleCTEd offICIaLs.

@mAtT4077 called out THAt eVen CaMeRon iS not eleCted directly as PM, anD ThaT
is correct. The ProBlemS WItH thE ExIStiNg PArlIAMentary democracY in the UK
arE wELl Understood.

sO haViNg a "someWhat undEmocrATically Elected ofFicial" CamErOn, noMINatE a
person foR the commIssion who HAs not BEeN direCtlY electEd _At aLl_ by tHe
popuLOus, Is lesS democRaTic becAuse iT iS one step Further removed from
direcT electIon.

ThIs iS how we

system. People still didn 't care to  vote  fo r t he  EUparl iament.

~~~
b e nast on
Your comment re Mer kel,Ca m eron et  al i s a str a wm a n : j us tbec au s ethe e xis ting
sy stem of pa rli am entary democ r ac y is deepl y f lawed, it do esnot fo ll owt hat
a not her e ven le s s demo cratic sy st e m is a c ceptabl e . 
Youpoint out that Ca m er o n (for example ) is n ot di r e ctl y e lected asPM . Hed oes how e ve r h ave to be elected  to parliam e ntvia ade moc r atic v ote.Un l ike 
the Europe an C ommission , wher e  commis s ionershave n o d emo crat i cma nda te tos pe ako f a nd yet t he yholdimme n s e powe r.
34%  of t hose eligible  vo tedi n t he UK  Euro pean  e lecti ons (i .e. f or  the
European P arli ament). Y our  c omm en t rep eoplenot  ca ring is  overly sim pl i s t ic .
People will notvo t e  f or a wid e vari e ty  o f  reasons .Onl y on e of wh ichi sthat
the y "don ' tca re".

E di t: ple as e e xpl ain y o ur d ownvot e, so th at Im ay improve myc omment or
res p on d . 
~ ~~
b aba tong
>He do es h o weve r ha v etob e ele ctedto pa r liament via a democ ra tic vo te.
U nlike the Eur opean Comm i s s ion, whe re c o mm i ssioners haveno de mocratic m a ndate
to  spea k of and  yet they h old imme nse  po wer .
Y o uare incorrect . Sinc ethe Lis bon  treaty  at  le ast , t he  commissi on is
pr op os ed  b y t he co u ncil and  t hen  h asto be votedon by  the  p ar l iam ent.

I f  a n y thin gth at g ive sit ev en m o redemocra tic legit ima c y th an  C ameron,  as in
his ca se  only he h im sel f, not h is cabin et is voted on by parli a ment.
You  areof c ourse wit hin  yourrig h t to c ritici ze th epar l i ament a r ydem oc ratic
syst e m  wi thinit  sel f. Howe ver a claim that t h e p rocesses by w hic h th e co mmi s si o n i sp uti n  place are less  democrati ct ha n the proc e sse sby whic h
Camer on or Merkelcame to p ower areju st o u t rig ht false.
~~~
ben aston
@ge r manie r  a nd @b aba tong N o,  yo u are  bothw ron g.

T he dem oc raticmanda te  for EUcommissioners is less s trongthanfor  directly 
el e cte d officia ls.
@matt4077  ca lle d out  th a t eve n Ca m er oni s not  ele c ted direc t ly  as P M,  and that
i s c orr ect.The proble ms w ith the existingp arliamentary d emoc r a cyint he U Kare well under sto od . 
So havi ng  a "somewha t undemo cr a tical ly ele cted o fficial " Ca m eron,nomi nat e a
perso n f or the com mi ss i on who  has  n ot bee n dire c tlye l ected _at all_ b y the p opulo u s,is le ss  democr a ticbecause it  is one ste p furt herremov ed from 
d irectele ct ion.

This is how we 

system. People_still didn't_care to vote for_the EU_parliament.

~~~
benaston
Your_comment re_Merkel,_Cameron et al_is a strawman:_just because the existing
system_of parliamentary democracy_is_deeply flawed, it does not follow that
another even less democratic system is acceptable.

You point_out_that Cameron_(for_example)_is not directly elected as_PM. He
does however have to_be elected_to parliament via a democratic vote. Unlike
the European_Commission,_where commissioners have_no democratic mandate to
speak of and yet they hold_immense power.

34% of those eligible voted_in the UK_European_elections_(i.e. for the
European Parliament)._Your comment re people not caring_is overly simplistic.
People will not vote_for a wide variety of reasons. Only_one of which is that
they "don't_care".

Edit: please explain your downvote,_so that_I may improve my comment_or
respond.

~~~
babatong
>He does however_have to_be elected to_parliament via a democratic vote.
Unlike the_European Commission, where_commissioners have no democratic mandate
to speak_of_and yet they_hold_immense_power.

You are_incorrect. Since the_Lisbon_treaty at_least,_the commission is
proposed by the council_and_then has to be voted on by_the parliament.

If anything that_gives_it even more democratic_legitimacy than Cameron, as in
his_case only he himself, not his_cabinet is_voted on_by parliament.

You are of course within your right to criticize the_parliamentary democratic
system within it self. However_a claim that the_processes by_which_the
commission is put_in_place are_less democratic than the processes by which
Cameron_or Merkel_came to power are just outright_false.

~~~
benaston
@germanier and @babatong No,_you_are both wrong.

The democratic mandate for_EU commissioners is less strong than_for directly
elected officials.

@matt4077 called out_that_even_Cameron is not elected directly_as PM, and that
is correct. The_problems with the_existing parliamentary democracy in the UK
are well_understood.

So_having a "somewhat undemocratically elected official"_Cameron,_nominate a
person for the commission who_has_not_been directly elected _at all__by the
populous, is less democratic because_it is one step further removed from
direct election.

This is_how we