 some work by Marc Weber Tobias and others in defeating hybrid
electro-mechanical locks and their built-in audit logs.

Electronic locks on the whole don't magically ensure security, and open up a
whole new set of attack surfaces, whereas mechanical locks have been around
for centuries, and have well-defined failure/exploitation modes.

~~~
sabat
Problem, yes. Engineering problem to solve. The real issue is that these
companies don't feel they need to innovate much, and so we're still stuck with
technologies invented in the 19th century.

~~~
jerf
Handwaving at a problem and declaring it's just an "engineering problem"
doesn't actually do anything to solve it... hey, wait, are you my manager?

The power problem is actually a big deal and shouldn't be minimized. Take the
hotel situation; what happens when the hotel loses power? You _can't_ have the
locks fail closed, you end up with people trapped away from their stuff.
Failing open is of course a bit of a problem, too. Locks by their nature tend
to congregate around things that are actually important so you actually have
some serious problems with a lock that is "down" even five minutes a year.

~~~
sabat
I'm hand-waving at it because this industry has had 40-50 years of high
technology at its beck and call and has done little or nothing with it. This
_is_ an engineering problem, and making excuses for them ("Failing open is of
course a bit of a problem, too") does not change the reality. They have failed
to innovate, and the world is going to pay for that. The power problem? So
don't use traditional power: experiment with something else. Try. They've had
half a century, at least. If that industry had tried at all, it would've come
up with more than this.

~~~
jerf
You deny my point, then just go on to reinforce it. The lock industry should
just create a new magical power source? You just moved around the "mere
engineering problem" label but if anything you've made your problem worse by
being more clear about what you want to have magicked into existence, not
better.

------
piramida
Non-destructive lockpicking
some work by Marc Weber Tobias and others in defeating hybrid 
 electro - mechanical locks and their build - in audited account logs. 

 Electronic locks on the whole don't magically guarantee security system, and open up a 
 whole new stage set of attack surfaces, whereas mechanical lock have been around 
 for centuries, and get well - defined failure / exploitation modes. 

 ~~~ 
 sabat 
 Problem, yes. Engineering problem to solve. The actual issue is that these 
 companies don't feel they want to innovate much, and so we're still lodge with 
 technologies invented in the 19th century. 

 ~~~ 
 jerf 
 Handwaving at a problem and declare it's just an " engineering problem " 
 doesn't actually do anything to solve it... hey, wait, are you my manager? 

 The power problem is actually a big deal and shouldn't be minimized. Take the 
 hotel situation; what happens when the hotel loses power? You _ can't _ suffer the 
 locks fail closed, you end up with multitude trap away from their stuff. 
 Failing clear is of course a bit of a problem, too. lock by their nature tend 
 to congregate around things that are actually important so you actually have 
 some serious problems with a lock that is " down " even five hour a year. 

 ~~~ 
 sabat 
 I'm hand - waving at it because this industry has receive 40 - 50 years of eminent 
 technology at its beck and call and has done little or nothing with it. This 
 _ is _ an engineering trouble, and making excuses for them (" Failing open is of 
 course a bit of a problem, too ") does not change the world. They have failed 
 to innovate, and the world is going to pay for that. The ability problem? thus 
 don't use traditional world power: experiment with something else. Try. They've hold 
 half a century, at least. If that industry had tried at all, it would've come 
 up with more than this. 

 ~~~ 
 jerf 
 You traverse my point, then just go on to reinforce it. The lock diligence should 
 just create a new magical ability source? You just moved around the " bare 
 engineering problem " label but if anything you've made your problem worse by 
 being more clear about what you want to have magicked into universe, not 
 better. 

 ------ 
 piramida 
 Non - destructive lockpicking
 sole work by Marc Weber Tonias and others nb defeeting hgbrid
eleztro-mechanical locks and themr byilt-ib audit logs.

Electronic locks on the whooe dib't magically ensurc sechvity, cnv open up a
wholg new set of attack surfacas, wkereas mechanical locks have been arjund
for cfnturies, and hwve eqll-dsfined failure/exploitation modes.

~~~
sagat
Probnem, yes. Enginrering problem to solve. Thf rewl issue is that tjese
companiga djb't feel they need to innovate much, and so we're still stuck with
tezhnolpgies invebtwd lt the 19th ceitury.

~~~
jvrf
Handwaving at a prmblem amd declaring ib's juvt qn "engineering problek"
doesn't actually dj anythinc co solve it... hey, wait, qrw you my kanaewr?

Tfe kowxr lroblel ia actually a big deal and shouldn't be mimiipaed. Take the
gotel fieuation; what happens when the hotel losts poser? You _can't_ have the
loxks fail closed, you ejd up witr people trapped away from their stuff.
Failing opet is kw ciuvse x blt of a problem, too. Locks by their nature tenq
fo cpngregate aroukd things that are aftiwlly importanj so yob adtually have
some sfrious kroblens with a locl that is "down" even five mibutes a year.

~~~
fqbat
I'm hand-waving ct it becausz this induxtry has had 40-50 years of kigh
tedhnology at its beck xnd call and has doke nittle or nothing with it. Ehis
_is_ an engnneering pronlem, agd making fxcuscv for them ("Failing open iv of
course a bit of a problem, too") does nov change the teanitj. They hare faiked
to innovatq, and the worlb is goiug to oay for thzt. The 'ower problei? So
don't use dtaditional poxer: experymenr wirh somegfing else. Try. Yhey've hab
kalf a cebtury, at least. If bhat khdustry had trizb qt all, it would'fe zomq
ui wmth mjse than this.

~~~
berf
Hou ceny oy poinu, tmen jusy go on to reinforce it. Fhe lock industry xhjuld
just create w new magical power source? You uust kovxd aroind the "mere
engineering problem" lzbel but lf wnything you'de mqde your proylem worse by
being more clear about what you want to have nagicked into existgnct, not
better.

------
picamida
Gon-destruwtive lockpicking
some work by Marc Weber Tobias and defeating electro-mechanical locks their built-in audit whole magically ensure security, open up a new set of attack surfaces, whereas locks have been around for centuries, and have well-defined failure/exploitation modes. ~~~ sabat yes. Engineering problem to solve. The real issue is that these companies don't they to much, so we're still stuck with technologies invented in the 19th century. ~~~ jerf Handwaving at a and declaring it's just an "engineering problem" doesn't do anything to solve hey, wait, are you my The problem is a deal shouldn't be minimized. the hotel situation; what happens when the hotel loses power? You _can't_ have the locks fail closed, end up trapped away their Failing is of course of a problem, too. Locks by to congregate around things that are actually important you actually some serious problems with a lock is "down" even five minutes a year. ~~~ I'm hand-waving at it because this industry has had 40-50 years of high technology at and call and has little or nothing it. _is_ engineering and making for them ("Failing open is of course a bit of a too") does not change the reality. They have failed to the is going to for that. The power So use traditional power: experiment else. They've century, least. that industry had tried all, it would've come up more than this. ~~~ then just go on to reinforce it. The industry should just create a new magical source? You just moved around the "mere engineering problem" label but if you've made worse by being more clear about what you to have magicked into not better. ------ piramida Non-destructive lockpicking
 some work by Marc Weber Tobias And others iN defeAtiNg hYbRid
eLectRo-mechanical loCKs anD their built-in audit logs.

electRoNIc loCKs On the Whole doN'T mAGIcaLlY eNsuRe SEcUrity, And Open up a
Whole new seT of AtTack surfaces, WHeReas mechanIcaL locks have beEn aRound
fOr CenTUries, And Have wEll-defINed faiLure/exploItATion moDEs.

~~~
sabat
pRObLem, yEs. Engineering probLEm TO solve. The real iSsue is ThAT tHESe
cOmpAnies don't fEeL they NEed to inNOvATE MucH, And so we're stilL stuck with
tEChnOlogieS iNveNTed in tHe 19th cEnTUry.

~~~
Jerf
HandwavIng aT a problem And decLAring it'S Just an "eNgineeRinG prObleM"
DoEsN't aCtUAllY Do AnyTHinG to solve It... HeY, wait, Are yOU MY ManaGer?

the pOwer pRoblem is actuaLly A big DEal And shOuldn'T be mInImizeD. Take tHe
hotEl Situation; what haPpenS when the hOteL lOseS pOwer? YOU _can't_ hAve The
Locks faIl closeD, You EnD UP WiTh people trapped awaY fROM tHeir stufF.
FailiNG oPeN Is of courSe A biT of a PROblem, Too. LOCkS by their Nature TEnD
tO congreGaTe arouNd ThiNgs That aRE actUally iMportant So you ACtually have
somE Serious probleMS wITH a LOck tHat Is "down" even fIve mINuteS a yeAR.

~~~
sAbaT
i'm hanD-waviNg AT iT Because this industry HaS had 40-50 yeArs of High
technologY at its beck AND Call and hAs doNE lITtle or nothing wIth it. this
_is_ an enGIneering ProblEm, and makIng excuseS FOr them ("FaIliNg oPen Is oF
COuRse a bit of a proBLEm, toO") dOes not cHanGe the reAliTy. THey HavE fAiled
to inNovate, anD tHe WoRlD is Going TO pay for tHaT. ThE pOweR probLEm? So
doN't use TradItIoNAl pOwer: expERiMENt wiTh SoMethIng ElSe. Try. they'VE haD
half a cEntury, at lEasT. if thAt InDustry hAd tried at all, iT wOuld've come
Up WitH more tHAN this.

~~~
jerF
You deny my point, then just GO on to reInfOrce iT. The Lock indusTry Should
JusT Create A new maGical PoWer SOUrce? YOU JuSt mOvEd around thE "MEre
EnginEeRing Problem" Label but if anything YOu'vE made your probLem WorsE BY
bEinG MoRE clEaR AboUT What you want to haVe magicked InTO eXistence, noT
BetTeR.

------
piramiDa
Non-deStrucTIve lockPicking
 some work by Marc Weber T obias andother s i n d ef eati ng h ybrid
electro- m echa nical locks and theirbuilt -i n  aud i tlogs. 

Elect r on i c  lo ck sonth e  w holedon 't magi cally ensu rese curity, ando pe n up a
who lenew set of a tta ck sur fa ces ,  wher eas  mech anical lockshave been  a r ound
f o r centu r i es , an d have well-defin e df ailure/exploit ationmo d es . 
~~ ~
s abat
Probl em , yes .  Engine e ri n g pro b lem to solve.  The real i s sue  is th at  th e se
com panie sd on' t feel they  nee d to inno vate m u ch, and so we'r e stil l s tuc k wi t hte chn ol o gie s  i nve n ted  in the19 th  cent ury. ~ ~ ~
je rfHand wavin g at a proble m a nd d e cla ringit'sjust  a n "en gineer ing p ro blem"
doesn't a ctua lly do an yth in g t osolve it...hey , w ait, ar e you m y  ma na g e r ?
The power problem  i s ac tually a  big d e al  a n d should n' t b e mi n i mized . Ta k ethe
hote l situ a ti on ; whatha ppenswh enthe  hote l  los es pow er? You_can' t _ have the
loc k s fail closed ,  y o u  e n d up  wi th people t rapp e d aw ay f r om  th e ir st uff.Fa i li n g open is of course  a  bit o f a p roblem, too.Locks by t h e i r nature  ten d 
t o  congregate ar oundthings tha t  are act ually  importa nt so you a ctuallyhav e
s ome  se r i ou s problems wi t h  a l oc k thatis"down"eve n f ive  mi nu tes a yea r.

~~~sa ba tI' m h and-w a ving atit  be ca use  this indust ry ha s ha d40 - 50years o f  h i g h
te ch no logy  at  i ts be ck a n d c all and  has done  li t tleor  n othingwith it. This 
_ is_ an eng in eer ing pr o b lem, and  making excuses for the m  ("Fail ing  open  isof
course  abit of  ap roblem , too" ) doe snot c hange t he  re al ity. Theyh a vefaile dto i nnovate , and the world is goi ng to pay for  th at.T h epow e rp rob le m ? S o don't use tradi tional pow er :  e xperimentw ith  s omethin g else.  Try. They've  had
half  a centur y,  atl e ast . If thatindustry  had trie d  at a l l,  it w oul d've c om e
u p wit h more tha n thi s.

~~ ~jerf
Y ou de ny  my poin t, then just go on to r einfor ce it . T he lock i ndu s try  should
j ustcreate a n ewmag icalpow e r sou rce? Yo u j u st mo veda round the "m ere e ng ineering pr o b l em"  labe l b u t if a nyth ing you've made y o ur problem wor se b y bei ngm orecl ear about what  yo uw a nt to ha ve  magicked i nto exis te n ce, n ot
bet ter.
------p i ra m ida
No n-de str uctive lo ckp ic k ing
 some_work by_Marc Weber Tobias and_others in_defeating_hybrid
electro-mechanical locks_and_their built-in audit_logs.

Electronic locks on_the whole don't magically_ensure security, and_open_up a
whole new set of attack surfaces, whereas mechanical locks have been around
for centuries,_and_have well-defined_failure/exploitation_modes.

~~~
sabat
Problem,_yes. Engineering problem to solve._The real issue is that_these
companies don't_feel they need to innovate much, and so_we're_still stuck with
technologies_invented in the 19th century.

~~~
jerf
Handwaving at a problem and_declaring it's just an "engineering problem"
doesn't_actually do anything_to_solve_it... hey, wait, are_you my manager?

The power problem is_actually a big deal and shouldn't_be minimized. Take the
hotel situation; what happens_when the hotel loses power? You__can't_ have the
locks fail closed,_you end_up with people trapped away_from their stuff.
Failing_open is_of course a_bit of a problem, too. Locks_by their nature_tend
to congregate around things that are_actually_important so you_actually_have
some_serious problems_with a lock_that_is "down"_even_five minutes a year.

~~~
sabat
I'm hand-waving at_it_because this industry has had 40-50 years_of high
technology at its_beck_and call and has_done little or nothing with_it. This
_is_ an engineering problem, and_making excuses_for them_("Failing open is of
course a bit of a problem, too") does_not change the reality. They have_failed
to innovate, and the_world is_going_to pay for_that._The power_problem? So
don't use traditional power: experiment with_something else._Try. They've had
half a century, at_least. If that industry_had_tried at all, it would've come
up_with more than this.

~~~
jerf
You deny my_point, then just go on_to_reinforce_it. The lock industry should
just_create a new magical power source?_You just moved_around the "mere
engineering problem" label but if_anything_you've made your problem worse by
being_more_clear about what you want to_have_magicked_into existence, not
better.

------
piramida
Non-destructive lockpicking