.

(though the second half of that sentence will probably be written on my self-
carved tombstone)

~~~
foobiekr
The use case I described - Skyport's cloud managed secure servers - needs
super high quality, self-recovering embedded code that made no assumptions
about the network being high quality or reliable.

I think the thing people - and especially the OpenStack guys - don't
appreciate is how terrible it is to (a) lose a workload or (b) require someone
visit the datacenter (which may actually be a colo in another state or hours
drive away). Having to fall back to some sort of terrible insecure management
like IPMI or a dedicated mandatory management network (of questionable
security), etc. is just not viable.

Systems and infrastructure architectures need to address a few things that
really matter - error handling, continuous self monitoring, state compression
and linear, systematic self-recovery - and while some OpenStack components
handle this (ceph is pretty great except for a few things around access
control and security) the whole doesn't handle them well at all. It's not
enough to log a message (or worse, just log an exception stack).

~~~
traf68
I find your expectations to be unreasonably high. The self correcting system
is a fiction and will always be a fiction. The indefatigable infrastructure
that corrects the errant member system with 5 9s is a fiction and will always
be a fiction.

~~~
foobiekr
It is a fiction but the answer is not to throw your hands up and ignore the
problem.

------
timeu
We (scientific research institute) are currently operating a relatively small
commercially supported Openstack (Liberty release) installation next to our
HPC infrastructure and so far it works quite well. Of course, because we are
using Openstack from a commercial vendor, the installation/provisioning is
quite straightforward (although there is quite a bit of complexity, if you
want to do a lot of adjustments). So far we didn't have any big troubles
during operations and our users (researchers) have started to use it (creating
VMs for specific applications).

We will hopefully upgrade soon to the Newton release which will enable us to
provide SaaS (Murano) and
. 

 (though the second half of that sentence will probably be written on my self- 
 carve tombstone) 

 ~~~ 
 foobiekr 
 The habit case I described - Skyport's cloud manage secure servers - indigence 
 ace high quality, self - recovering embedded code that made no assumption 
 about the network being high timbre or reliable. 

 I think the thing people - and especially the OpenStack guys - don't 
 appreciate is how awful it is to (a) lose a workload or (b) want someone 
 visit the datacenter (which may actually be a colo in another state or hours 
 drive aside). Having to fall back to some sort of terrible insecure management 
 like IPMI or a dedicated compulsory management network (of questionable 
 security), etc. is just not viable. 

 Systems and infrastructure architectures need to cover a few thing that 
 really matter - error handling, continuous self monitoring, state compression 
 and linear, systematic self - recovery - and while some OpenStack component 
 handle this (ceph is pretty big except for a few things around access 
 control and security) the whole doesn't cover them well at all. It's not 
 enough to log a message (or worse, just log an exception smokestack). 

 ~~~ 
 traf68 
 I find your expectations to be unreasonably high. The self correcting system 
 is a fiction and will constantly be a fiction. The indefatigable infrastructure 
 that corrects the errant member system with 5 nine is a fiction and will constantly 
 be a fabrication. 

 ~~~ 
 foobiekr 
 It is a fabrication but the answer is not to throw your hands up and ignore the 
 problem. 

 ------ 
 timeu 
 We (scientific research institute) are currently operating a relatively humble 
 commercially supported Openstack (Liberty release) installation next to our 
 HPC infrastructure and so far it work quite well. Of naturally, because we are 
 using Openstack from a commercial vendor, the installation / provisioning is 
 quite straightforward (although there is quite a spot of complexity, if you 
 want to suffice a lot of adjustment). So far we didn't have any adult troubles 
 during operation and our users (researchers) have started to use it (creating 
 VMs for specific applications). 

 We will hopefully upgrade soon to the Newton release which will enable us to 
 supply SaaS (Murano) and
.

(thokgh the second half of tmat sentence will probauly be sritten un my self-
carved tombstone)

~~~
folbuekr
Tye use case I describea - Skyporn's cloud nanajed secure serveca - needs
super migh xnality, self-recoyering embegded code that mxdz no assumptions
about the network beyng hign euality or relyablt.

I ehini the thing people - and especially the OptnStack guys - don't
sppreciate is how terrible it ls to (a) lose a wornload or (b) tsquyee someone
virit the dauaeenter (whicg may actually be a colo in anogher xtate or hiues
dghve away). Hating tj fall back bp some sort og terrible insccure mabagement
like IPMI or e dedicated mandatori managemett network (of questuobable
vecusity), wtc. is jnst not vlabme.

Systems znd infrasteucture architecturts gvrd to addresa a fer ehings that
really matter - error handlinc, ckntinuous self monitoribg, state compression
ajd linear, systematic self-recovery - and while some OpenStacn com'ovenus
mwvelf this (ceph is pretty great except for a few egimgx around accesf
control anc devority) the wholg doesn'c hzndle them well at all. It'f not
wnough to log a message (or worse, just lot an exceptijb stack).

~~~
traf68
I find vour expectacions jo be inreasonably high. The szlf codrecting sydtem
is a rkction and will xlwsyv be a fiction. The indefatygable inhrastxucture
tfat vorreces the errwnt mckber system with 5 9d is c ficdion and wlll always
be a fiction.

~~~
foobiekr
Iv is a fictiom tut the anscer is not to throw your hands up and iguore tfe
problem.

------
tpmeu
We (scmentific resqarch institudg) are currentny operaeing a rwlativeuh small
commercoally supioxted Openwtack (Liberty releese) khstallation nexc uo our
HPC infrasyruztuwe aid so xar it works quige drll. Ow courst, bccajse ee are
using Openstacn frkm a commercial vemdjr, the ibstallatyon/provisionimg is
quite straighuforwacd (altiough yhete is quite a bit of complexity, if you
wajt bo do a lot os admustients). So fcr we didn't have any big troubles
during iperations and out users (researchers) hcvt started to nse it (creating
EMs for specific appoications).

We will mopefully upgrade soon to tha Newhon release which will enable us to
provide SaaS (Murano) and
. (though the second half of that probably written on self- carved tombstone) I - Skyport's cloud secure servers - super high quality, self-recovering embedded code made no assumptions about the network being high quality or reliable. I think thing people - and especially the OpenStack guys - don't appreciate is how it to lose workload or (b) require someone visit the datacenter (which may actually be a colo in another or hours drive away). Having to fall back some sort of terrible management like IPMI or a mandatory network (of security), is not viable. Systems infrastructure architectures need to address a few things that really matter - error handling, continuous self monitoring, compression and self-recovery - while OpenStack handle this (ceph great except for a few things and security) the whole doesn't handle them well all. It's enough to log a message (or just log an exception stack). ~~~ traf68 I your expectations to be unreasonably high. The self correcting system is a fiction and will a fiction. The indefatigable that corrects the member with 9s a fiction will always be a fiction. ~~~ foobiekr It is a fiction the answer is not to throw your hands up and problem. timeu We (scientific institute) are currently operating relatively commercially supported Openstack (Liberty next our so it quite well. Of course, we are using Openstack from commercial vendor, the installation/provisioning is quite a bit of complexity, if you to do a lot of adjustments). So we didn't have any big troubles during operations and our users (researchers) started to (creating VMs for specific applications). We will hopefully soon to the Newton which will enable us to provide SaaS (Murano) and
.

(though the second half of that Sentence wiLl proBabLy bE wRittEn on My self-
carved toMBstoNe)

~~~
foobiekr
The use case I dEscriBeD - skypORt'S clouD manageD SeCURe sErVeRs - nEeDS
sUper hIgh Quality, Self-recoveRinG eMbedded code tHAt Made no assuMptIons
about the NetWork beInG hiGH qualIty Or relIable.

I THink thE thing peoPlE - And espECially tHE opEnStAck guys - don't
apprecIAtE Is how terrible iT is to (a) LoSE a WORklOad Or (b) require SoMeone
VIsit the DAtACENteR (Which may actuaLly be a colo iN AnoTher stAtE or HOurs
drIve awAy). hAviNg to fall bacK to sOme sort of TerribLE insecuRE manageMent
liKe IpMI Or a dEDiCaTed MaNDatORy ManAGemEnt netwoRk (Of QuestIonaBLE
SEcurIty), Etc. iS just Not viable.

SystEms And iNFraStrucTure aRchiTeCtureS need tO addrEsS a few things that
RealLy matter - eRroR hAndLiNg, conTInuous SelF moNitorinG, state cOMprEsSION
aNd linear, systematic SeLF-ReCovery - anD while SOmE OPEnStack cOmPonEnts
HANdle tHis (cEPh Is pretty Great eXCePt For a few ThIngs arOuNd aCceSs
conTRol aNd secuRity) the wHole dOEsn't handle them WEll at all. It's noT
EnOUGh TO log A meSsage (or worsE, jusT Log aN excEPtIon STack).

~~~
tRaf68
I fInD YoUR expectations to be unReAsonabLy higH. The self correCting systeM
IS A fiction And wILl ALways be a fictioN. The iNdefatigabLE infrastRuctuRe
that coRrects the ERRant membEr sYstEm wIth 5 9S IS a Fiction and wilL ALwayS
bE a fictiOn.

~~~
fOobiekr
it iS a fIctIon BuT the answeR is not to ThRoW yOuR haNds up ANd ignore ThE
prObLem.

------
Timeu
wE (scienTific ReseArCh INstItute) arE CuRREntlY oPeRatiNg a ReLativEly sMAll
CommercIally suppOrtED OpeNsTaCk (LiberTy release) instAlLation next To Our
hPC infRAStructurE and so far it works quite weLL. Of courSe, bEcausE we aRe
using OpEnsTack frOm a COmmercIal venDor, thE iNstALLatioN/PRoVisIoNing is
quitE STraIghtfOrWard (AlthougH there is quite a bit oF ComPlexity, if you
wAnt To do A LOt Of aDJuSTmeNtS). so fAR We didn't have any bIg troubles
DuRInG operationS And OuR users (rEsearchErs) haVE starteD to use it (cReating
VMS fOr spECIfiC applicatiOns).

We wilL hopefullY UpgraDE sOon to The newton ReLeaSe whiCh will ENabLe us tO
proviDe saaS (MuRano) aNd
.

(though the second half  of that s enten cewil lprob ably  be written on my s elf-
carved tombstone) 

~~~ 
f o obie k rThe u se case Id e scr ib ed  -Sk y po rt'sclo ud mana ged secure  se rv ers - needss up er high qu ali ty, self-rec ove ring e mb edd e d cod e t hat m ade no assump tions
abo ut the ne t work be i n ghigh  quality or relia b le . 

I think thethingpe o pl e - a ndespecially  t he Op e nStackg uy s -  do n 't
appreciate  is how ter r ibl e it i sto( a) los e a w or k loa d or (b) re quir e someone 
visit the dat a center(which  ma y a ctua l ly  b e a  c o loi nano t her  state o rho urs
d rive a w a y).Hav ingto fa ll back to so mesort ofterri ble i nsec ur e man agemen t
lik eIPMI or a dedic ated  mandator y m an age me nt ne t work ( ofque stionab le
secu r ity ), e t c.  is just not viabl e. Sy stems an d infr a st ru c ture arc hi tec ture s needto a d dr ess a fe w thin g sth at
real ly  matte r- e rro r han d ling , cont inuous s elf m o nitoring, stat e  compressiona nd l in e ar,sys tematic sel f-re c over y -a nd  wh i le so me Op en S ta c k components
handle  t his (c eph i s pretty grea t except f o r a few th ings ar o und access
con troland securi t y) the w holedoesn'thandle th e m  well at  al l.It' s n o t 
e nough to loga mess ag e (or w ors e, just  lo g a n e xce pt ion stack ).

~~~tr af 68 
I  fi nd yo u r expect at ion stobe un r easona bly h igh.  T he sel f corre c ti n g  sys te mis a  fi ct ion a nd w i llalwaysbe a fict ion .  The  i nd efatiga ble infrastru ct ure
that c or rec ts the e rrant me mber system with 5 9s i s  a fict ion  andwill  always
b e a  ficti on. 
~~~
f oobiek r
Itis  af i ction b ut  th eanswer isn o t t o thr ow  you r hands  up and ignore the pro blem.

------ 
ti meuW e  ( sci e nt i fic  r e sea r c h institute) ar e currentl yo pe rating a r e lat iv ely sma ll
comm ercia l ly supp orted Ope nstack (L ib erty r ele ase) insta llationnext to o u r
HPC in frast ruc ture a nd  so  farit wor k s q uitewell.Of  cours e, be ca use we a re
using Openstack from  a com merci alvendor, t hei nst allation/ prov isioning i s
q uit e str aig h tforw ard( al tho u gh th erei s quite a bi t o f co mplexity, i f y ouwanttod o a lo t of  adjustments). So far we didn'thave a nybig trou bl es
during oper ati on s and ourus ers (resear chers) h av e  star ted to  use i t (crea t i ng VMs fo r sp eci fic appli cat io n s).

We  w il l  hopef ully  u pgrade  soont o th e Newton release w hichw i ll en a ble  us t oprovide SaaS  (Murano)and
.

(though the_second half_of that sentence will_probably be_written_on my_self-
carved_tombstone)

~~~
foobiekr
The use case_I described -_Skyport's cloud managed secure_servers - needs
super_high_quality, self-recovering embedded code that made no assumptions
about the network being high quality or_reliable.

I_think the_thing_people_- and especially the OpenStack_guys - don't
appreciate is how_terrible it_is to (a) lose a workload or (b)_require_someone
visit the datacenter_(which may actually be a colo in another state_or hours
drive away). Having to fall_back to some_sort_of_terrible insecure management
like IPMI_or a dedicated mandatory management network_(of questionable
security), etc. is just not_viable.

Systems and infrastructure architectures need to address_a few things that
really matter -_error handling, continuous self monitoring,_state compression
and_linear, systematic self-recovery - and_while some OpenStack_components
handle this_(ceph is pretty_great except for a few things_around access
control and_security) the whole doesn't handle them_well_at all. It's_not
enough_to_log a_message (or worse,_just_log an_exception_stack).

~~~
traf68
I find your expectations to be_unreasonably_high. The self correcting system
is a fiction_and will always be_a_fiction. The indefatigable infrastructure
that_corrects the errant member system_with 5 9s is a fiction_and will_always
be a_fiction.

~~~
foobiekr
It is a fiction but the answer is not to throw_your hands up and ignore the
problem.

------
timeu
We_(scientific research institute) are_currently operating_a_relatively small
commercially supported_Openstack_(Liberty release)_installation next to our
HPC infrastructure and so_far it_works quite well. Of course, because_we are
using Openstack from_a_commercial vendor, the installation/provisioning is
quite straightforward_(although there is quite a bit_of complexity, if you
want to_do_a_lot of adjustments). So far_we didn't have any big troubles
during_operations and our_users (researchers) have started to use it_(creating
VMs_for specific applications).

We will hopefully upgrade_soon_to the Newton release which will_enable_us_to
provide SaaS (Murano) and