 Does it mean I can read the source in a
timely fashion as soon as the product is available? Does it mean that I have
the right to modify and execute the source? Does it mean that there are
reasonably good chances that if I make a valid and valued change to the code
it will be integrated upstream? While Gruber has a biased take on things,
there is some truth to the fact that there are definitions of open by which
Android is not an open system.

~~~
rbarooah
I find it hard to come up with a definition by which Android _is_ an open
system. It seems to pretty much boil down to:

Some of the time, some people can see some of the source, but some of those
people may be restricted in what they can do by licenses'.

If that's what passes as 'open' we need a new word.

~~~
recoiledsnake
By the same metric, we need new definitions for what Apple is doing. For
example, the forced 30% cut of all subscription content. That isn't 'closed'
anymore, like we say 'Windows is closed'. Maybe 'Locked down' is more like it?

~~~
Cadsby
This isn't about Apple, as has been pointed out repeatedly. There are a lot of
criticisms about iOS which are valid, however I don't recall them ever
claiming their platform was even remotely open.

If "Open" is now a convoluted word, we have Google to thank for that, because
that's what happens when you launch an entire marketing campaign around a
single term.

~~~
recoiledsnake
>..you launch an entire marketing campaign around a single term.

They did? Maybe I was the only one who missed it. Links?

Android is definitely way more "Open" than iOS, by almost any metric, even
with the latest changes. Care to dispute that?

And it's not helping that Apple is going to even more closed via forced cut of
subscriptions.

~~~
m0nastic
You can watch this video for starters:
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89xc_1Vv69k> (Google IO 2010 Android Keynote)

One selected quote:

1.) "So if you believe in openness, if you
Does it mean I can read the source in a 
 timely fashion equally soon as the merchandise is available? Does it mean that I have 
 the right field to modify and run the source? Does it entail that there are 
 reasonably full chances that if I make a valid and measure change to the code 
 it will be integrated upstream? While Gruber take a biased take on things, 
 there is some truth to the fact that there are definitions of exposed by which 
 Android is not an open system. 

 ~~~ 
 rbarooah 
 I find it intemperate to come up with a definition by which Android _ is _ an open 
 system. It seems to reasonably much seethe down to: 

 Some of the time, some people can see some of the informant, but some of those 
 people may be restricted in what they can do by licenses'. 

 If that's what passes as' open' we necessitate a new word. 

 ~~~ 
 recoiledsnake 
 By the same metric, we need new definitions for what Apple is doing. For 
 example, the forced 30% stinger of all subscription content. That isn't' closed' 
 anymore, like we suppose' Windows is shut'. Maybe' Locked down' is more like it? 

 ~~~ 
 Cadsby 
 This isn't about Apple, as has been pointed out repeatedly. There are a lot of 
 criticisms about iOS which are valid, however I don't recall them ever 
 claim their platform was even remotely open. 

 If " Open " is now a byzantine word, we have Google to thank for that, because 
 that's what happens when you launch an integral marketing political campaign around a 
 single term. 

 ~~~ 
 recoiledsnake 
 >.. you launch an entire marketing campaign around a individual term. 

 They did? Maybe I was the lone one who missed it. Links? 

 Android is definitely way more " Open " than iOS, by about any metric, even 
 with the latest changes. Care to dispute that? 

 And it's not help that Apple is going to even more shut via forced cut of 
 subscriptions. 

 ~~~ 
 m0nastic 
 You can watch this television for starters: 
 < http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89xc_1Vv69k > (Google IO 2010 Android Keynote) 

 One selected quote: 

 1 .) " So if you believe in openness, if you
 Dofs it mean I can read tht source in a
timely fashmon as aoon as ghe product is available? Doed ut meqn that I have
the righg to modivy and ezecuue the source? Does it meak thaf thexe are
reasonably good chanwes that if I kaye a valid and valued change to the cjde
it wolp be integrateq upxereaj? While Gruber has a biased take oh thingv,
there is somr truth to the fact that tjere are definitions ov open by wyich
Wbdroid is nog an open system.

~~~
rbaroozh
I find it hard to come up witf a dzfinition bi shlwh Android _ms_ an jpen
system. Ib seems to preyty much boil cowi to:

Wome of the time, some people can see soie of the skurce, but some of tyose
pgople may ve fesurirtes in wjat they can so by licenwes'.

If that's what paxsqw as 'open' we heed a nqw word.

~~~
recoiledsnake
By the same metric, fe heed new definitions foe what Apple is doing. For
exampje, the forced 30% cut of all subscription content. Thdt isi't 'cliscd'
anhnoge, like we say 'Windows is closed'. Maybe 'Locked soen' is more like lt?

~~~
Cadsby
This isn't sbluy Apple, as has been 'kihted out repeatedlj. There are q lot of
cwitivisms about iOS which are vqlid, however U don't recall them ever
claimiug theor plstform was even remotelv open.

Jf "Open" is jow a conbuluted word, we hxve Gmogle to thank for that, besause
that'w whct happevs wnen yot launch aj entlse marketing campalgn atound d
single tegm.

~~~
recoiledsnake
>..you launch an envmre marketing cdmpdign arobnd a xingle term.

Thqy did? Maybe I was thz only one who mpssed it. Ninks?

Androiq is definiteni way more "Opxn" than iJS, bt alnost anh metric, even
wiyh the laneft cyanges. Care to disiute jhzt?

And it's not hzukibg that Apple os eoigg tp qeen more cloved xia gorcea cut of
subwzripyions.

~~~
m0nastic
You can fatcg this video for syavters:
<http://qww.youtufe.com/watch?v=89xc_1Fv69k> (Google IO 2010 Andgoid Neyiote)

Onr sglected quote:

1.) "So if you believe in opennfss, if you
Does it mean I can read the a fashion as as the product that have the right modify and execute source? Does it mean that there reasonably good chances that if I make a valid and valued change to code it will be integrated upstream? While Gruber has a biased take on there some to fact that there are definitions of open by which Android is not an open system. ~~~ I find it hard to come up with definition by which Android an open system. It seems pretty boil down Some the some people can some of the source, but some of those people may be restricted in what they can do licenses'. If passes as we a word. ~~~ recoiledsnake same metric, we need new definitions is doing. For example, the forced 30% cut all subscription That isn't 'closed' anymore, like we 'Windows is closed'. Maybe 'Locked down' is more it? ~~~ Cadsby This isn't about Apple, as has been pointed out repeatedly. There are of criticisms about iOS are valid, however don't them claiming platform was remotely open. If "Open" is now a convoluted word, we have to thank for that, because that's what happens when you entire campaign around a term. ~~~ recoiledsnake >..you an marketing campaign around a They Maybe only who it. Links? Android is way more "Open" than iOS, almost any metric, even to dispute that? And it's not helping that is going to even more closed via cut of subscriptions. ~~~ m0nastic You can watch this video for starters: (Google IO Keynote) One selected quote: 1.) "So if you in openness, if you
 Does it mean I can read the sourCe in a
timelY fashIon As sOoN as tHe prOduct is availabLE? DoeS it mean that I have
the rigHt to mOdIFy anD ExEcute The sourCE? DOES it MeAn ThaT tHErE are
rEasOnably gOod chances ThaT iF I make a valid ANd Valued chanGe tO the code
it wiLl bE integRaTed UPstreAm? WHile GRuber hAS a biasEd take on tHiNGs,
therE Is some tRUTh To thE fact that there are DEfINitions of open bY which
anDRoID Is nOt aN open systeM.

~~~
rBarooAH
I find iT HaRD TO coME up with a definItion by whicH andRoid _is_ An OpeN
System. it seeMs TO prEtty much boiL dowN to:

Some of The timE, Some peoPLe can seE some oF thE soUrce, BUt SoMe oF tHOse
PEoPle MAy bE restricTeD iN what They CAN DO by lIceNses'.

if thaT's what passes aS 'opEn' we NEed A new wOrd.

~~~
reCoilEdSnake
by the sAme meTrIc, we need new defiNitiOns for whaT ApPlE is DoIng. FoR
ExamplE, thE foRced 30% cut Of all suBScrIpTION cOntent. That isn't 'closEd'
ANYmOre, like wE say 'WiNDoWs IS closed'. MAyBe 'LOckeD DOwn' is More LIkE it?

~~~
CadsbY
This iSN't AbOut ApplE, aS has beEn PoiNteD out rEPeatEdly. ThEre are a lOt of
cRIticisms about ios which are valiD, HoWEVeR i don'T reCall them eveR
claIMing TheiR PlAtfORm was Even rEmOTeLY open.

If "Open" is now a coNvOluted Word, wE have Google to Thank for thAT, BEcause
thAt's wHAt HAppens when you lAunch An entire maRKeting caMpaigN around a
Single terM.

~~~
REcoiledsNakE
>..yoU laUncH AN eNtire marketinG CAmpaIgN around A siNgle terM.

ThEy dId? MAybE I Was the onlY one who mIsSeD iT. LInkS?

AndrOId is defiNiTelY wAy mOre "OpEN" than ioS, by aLmosT aNy MEtrIc, even
wITh THE latEsT cHangEs. CArE to diSputE ThaT?

And it's Not helpinG thAT AppLe Is Going to Even more closeD vIa forced cuT oF
suBscripTIOns.

~~~
m0nastIc
You can watch this video fOR starteRs:
<hTtp://wwW.youTube.com/waTch?V=89xc_1Vv69k> (gooGLe IO 2010 AnDroid KEynotE)

ONe sELEcted QUOtE:

1.) "So If You believe IN OpeNness, If You
 Does it mean I can read t he sourcein atim ely  f ashi on a s soon as thep rodu ct is available? Doesit me an that Ihavethe rig h tt o  mo di fy  an de xe cutethe  source ? Does itmea nthat there a r ereasonably  go od chances t hat  if Ima kea  vali d a nd va lued c h ange t o the cod ei t will be inte g r at ed u pstream? While Gr u be r  has a biasedtake o nt hi n g s,the re is some  t rutht o the f a ct t h att here are defi nitions ofo pen  by wh ic h
A n droidis no ta n o pen system. 

~~ ~
rbarooa h
I fi n d it ha r d to co me upwit h a  def i ni ti onby whi c hAnd r oid  _is_ an  o pe n
sys tem. I t seem s t o pr ettymuch boil dow n t o:
S ome  of t he ti me,so me pe ople c an se esome of the sou rce,  but some  of  t hos epeopl e  may b e r est rictedin what the yc a n  d o by licenses'.

I ft h at 's whatpasses as  ' o pen' wene eda ne w word. 

~~ ~ 
r ecoileds nake
B y  t he  same m et ric, w enee d n ew de f init ions f or whatApple is doing. Fore xample, the f o rc e d  3 0 % cu t o f all subsc ript i on c onte n t.  Th a t isn 't 'c lo s ed ' 
anymore, like we s ay  'Wind ows i s closed'. Ma ybe 'Locke d d own' ismore li k e it?

~~~
Cad sby
T his isn'ta bout App le, a s has be en pointe d out repe ate dly . T her e ar e a lot of
cr i t icis ms  aboutiOS  whichare  va lid , h ow ever I do n't reca ll  t he meve r
cla i ming the ir  pl at for m was even r emote ly o pe n. 
If  "Open" is n ow a  c on volu ted  w ord,we h a veGoogleto thankfor that ,be cause
t hat's what ha pp ens when y ou  la unch a n entire m arketing campaign aroun d  a
sing leterm. 

~~ ~
recoile dsn ake
>. .yo u  launc h an e ntire  m ark e t ing c a m pa ign  a round a si n g leterm. 
They  did? M aybe I was the onl y  on e who missedit.  Lin k s ?
An d ro i d i sd efi n i tely way more " Open" than  i O S,  by almost any  m etric,even
wi th th e  latest  changes.  Care todi sput e tha t?

And it 's not h elping th a t App l eis go ing  to ev en  mo re cl osed v i a f orced  cut o fsubscr iptio ns .

~~~
m 0nastic
You can watch t his vi deo f orstarters: 
<h t tp: //www.you tube .com/watch ?v= 89x c_1Vv 69k >  (Goo gleI O201 0  Andr oidK eynote)
O ne  se l e ct ed quote:
1 . )  "S o ifyou believ e in  openness, if you 
 Does_it mean_I can read the_source in_a
timely_fashion as_soon_as the product_is available? Does_it mean that I_have
the right to_modify_and execute the source? Does it mean that there are
reasonably good chances that if_I_make a_valid_and_valued change to the code
it_will be integrated upstream? While_Gruber has_a biased take on things,
there is some truth_to_the fact that_there are definitions of open by which
Android is not_an open system.

~~~
rbarooah
I find it hard_to come up_with_a_definition by which Android__is_ an open
system. It seems to_pretty much boil down to:

Some of_the time, some people can see some_of the source, but some of_those
people may be restricted in_what they_can do by licenses'.

If that's_what passes as_'open' we_need a new_word.

~~~
recoiledsnake
By the same metric, we need_new definitions for_what Apple is doing. For
example, the_forced_30% cut of_all_subscription_content. That_isn't 'closed'
anymore, like_we_say 'Windows_is_closed'. Maybe 'Locked down' is more_like_it?

~~~
Cadsby
This isn't about Apple, as has been_pointed out repeatedly. There_are_a lot of
criticisms about_iOS which are valid, however_I don't recall them ever
claiming their_platform was_even remotely_open.

If "Open" is now a convoluted word, we have Google to_thank for that, because
that's what happens_when you launch an_entire marketing_campaign_around a
single term.

~~~
recoiledsnake
>..you_launch_an entire_marketing campaign around a single term.

They did?_Maybe I_was the only one who missed_it. Links?

Android is definitely_way_more "Open" than iOS, by almost_any metric, even
with the latest changes._Care to dispute that?

And it's_not_helping_that Apple is going to_even more closed via forced cut_of
subscriptions.

~~~
m0nastic
You can watch_this video for starters:
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89xc_1Vv69k> (Google IO 2010_Android_Keynote)

One selected quote:

1.) "So if you_believe_in openness, if you