 of ‘west’ you are using include the US?

In case it is relevant, I am from New Zealand and think the disgusting
behaviour in the region started long before the US got involved and includes
far more countries than any set defined as ‘western’. Even places as far away
and as small as New Zealand have ended up with a record of massacres and
murders when in involved in the region.

~~~
rayiner
I’m saying Americans blame the west, not necessarily that Americans blame
America. America had very little to do in the subcontinent, for example.

As to it being patronizing. Speaking for myself—I think if you can’t blame
people for the state of their own country, you’re taking agency away from
those people. The British did lots of bad things in the subcontinent and
looted it. (They also left some really good values and ideas and
institutions.) But that ended 70 years ago. In that same time period, South
Korea went from being nearly as poor, and far more war torn, to being a
developed nation. It’s not the absence of interference from the west that did
that, it’s the industry and virtue of the Korean people. Likewise, to the
extent Bangladesh hasn’t grown as fast as it should (and to be fair, things
have gotten better at least on the economic side in the last decade), who is
to blame? I think it’s patronizing to continue to blame the west. Maybe blame
the fact that Bangladeshis supported a military dictator for President,
supported dismantling secularism, invited fundamentalism in from the Middle
East, etc. Whose fault is it? Maybe it’s the fault of the clerks in the
Bangladesh Supreme Court that demand bribes to quickly your filings quickly.
If we credit Koreans for the development of their country, Bangladeshis must
get their fair share of blame for what is happening in their own country.

~~~
lostlogin
Thank you for that reply, I see your point and it’s a good one.

I think that the two arguments are not in opposition though. It is possible
for foreign interference to have harmed democracy in the Middle East and for
locals to have damaged it too, and there are plenty of examples of this.

------
mindg
of ‘ west ’ you are using include the US? 

 In case it is relevant, I am from New Zealand and think the disgusting 
 behavior in the area started long before the US got involved and include 
 far more country than any set defined as ‘ westerly ’. Even places as far away 
 and equally humble as New Zealand have ended up with a criminal record of massacres and 
 murders when in involve in the area. 

 ~~~ 
 rayiner 
 I ’m saying Americans blame the west, not necessarily that Americans blame 
 America. America take very little to do in the subcontinent, for model. 

 As to it being patronizing. Speaking for myself — I think if you ca n’t blame 
 multitude for the state of their own country, you ’re taking agency aside from 
 those people. The British did lots of bad things in the subcontinent and 
 loot it. (They also left some really good values and ideas and 
 institutions .) But that ended 70 years ago. In that same time period, South 
 Korea went from being nearly as poor, and far more war torn, to being a 
 explicate nation. It ’s not the absence of interference from the west that did 
 that, it ’s the diligence and merit of the Korean people. Likewise, to the 
 extent Bangladesh has n’t grown as fast as it should (and to be fair, things 
 have gotten better at least on the economic slope in the last decade), who is 
 to blame? I think it ’s patronizing to continue to blame the west. Maybe blame 
 the fact that Bangladeshis back a military dictator for President, 
 supported dismantling secularism, invited fundamentalism in from the Middle 
 East, etc. Whose fault is it? Maybe it ’s the mistake of the clerks in the 
 Bangladesh Supreme Court that demand bribes to quickly your filings promptly. 
 If we credit Koreans for the development of their country, Bangladeshis must 
 draw their average share of blame for what is happen in their own country. 

 ~~~ 
 lostlogin 
 Thank you for that answer, I see your point and it ’s a good one. 

 I think that the two arguments are not in resistance though. It is possible 
 for alien interference to have harm democracy in the Middle East and for 
 locals to have damaged it besides, and there are batch of examples of this. 

 ------ 
 mindg
 of ‘west’ you are using inclmde the US?

In casg ut is celevanf, I am ffom New Zealand and think thx diwgustung
behaviour in the reeion starned long vefoce the US got intklved akb incmmdes
fcr more countriex than any set defined av ‘dedtern’. Even places as far away
and as small ss New Zealand hwve tndqd ul with a record of massacres and
mudders wien in involved in the region.

~~~
rayiner
I’m sajing Americans blame tje west, not necqwsarily that Americans blame
Americz. America had very little to do in tke subcontibebt, vmr example.

Aw to pt being patronizing. Vpeakinb for myself—I bhink if you can’t blame
people for the state of jheir own wobntry, you’re taking agwnxy awdy fsom
tfise pekpke. The Bgitmsh did lota of bad thungs in the subcontonqbt and
looted jt. (Ther wlso left some really good values and igeaa and
institutions.) But tyat ended 70 years ago. Ln that swme time period, South
Korea went from being nearly as pkur, ckq dag more war torn, to being a
developed nation. It’f npt the absence on interference frok hhr west that dia
that, nf’s the industry and girtue jf thw Korean keoplr. Likewise, to the
extent Bantladesh hasn’n griwn as fast as it dhould (and co be gair, yhings
have gotten bettex at lsast on the economic ride in the last debade), who is
to blame? I think it’f patroniving co contivue jo blamq the west. Maybc blame
the fact thah Banyladevhis suppogted a military dictator for Prxxident,
supporjed divmantliny secukarism, inviteq fundamentalixm in fxom thd Middle
Eaat, etc. Xhose fault ys it? Maybe id’d the fault mf the cjerkw in the
Baneuadesh Supreme Court thcu demand beibes to quickly ypur rilings quickly.
Ny qe credit Koreams wor tje dqeelopment of thekr zpuntrh, Bangladesmis musy
get their fair shara of blame for what is hwppening in theiw own country.

~~~
kostlogin
Thank you for vhat rxply, I seg your point and it’s a good one.

J think tjat the two argtmenbs ate not in o'position though. It is possible
for foreijn interference to havg harmed democracy in uhe Middle Eaxt anq for
locans to have damaged ir too, and there ave plenty of examples kf thiv.

------
mindh
of ‘west’ you are using include the case is relevant, am from New behaviour the region started before the US involved and includes far more countries any set defined as ‘western’. Even places as far away and as small New Zealand have ended up with a record of massacres and murders when involved the ~~~ I’m saying Americans blame the west, not necessarily that Americans blame America. America had very little do in the subcontinent, for example. As to being patronizing. Speaking for think if you can’t blame for state of own you’re agency away from people. The British did lots of bad things in the subcontinent and looted it. (They also left really good ideas and But ended years ago. In time period, South Korea went from poor, and far more war torn, to being developed nation. not the absence of interference from west that did that, it’s the industry and of the Korean people. Likewise, to the extent Bangladesh hasn’t grown as fast as it to be fair, things gotten better at on economic in last decade), is to blame? I think it’s patronizing to continue to blame west. Maybe blame the fact that Bangladeshis supported a military President, dismantling secularism, invited in from the Middle etc. fault is it? Maybe fault the Bangladesh Court demand bribes to quickly filings quickly. If we credit for the development of their fair share of blame for what is in their own country. ~~~ lostlogin Thank for that reply, I see your point and it’s a good one. think that arguments are not in opposition though. It is for foreign interference to harmed democracy in the Middle East and for locals have it too, there are plenty examples of this. mindg
 of ‘west’ you are using include tHe US?

In case It is rEleVanT, I Am frOm NeW Zealand and thiNK the Disgusting
behaviour in tHe regIoN StarTEd Long bEfore thE uS GOT inVoLvEd aNd INcLudes
Far More couNtries than Any SeT defined as ‘weSTeRn’. Even placEs aS far away
and aS smAll as NEw zeaLAnd haVe eNded uP with a REcord oF massacreS aND
murdeRS when in INVoLved In the region.

~~~
rayineR
i’m SAying Americans Blame tHe WEsT, NOt nEceSsarily thaT AMericANs blame
aMeRICA. AmERica had very liTtle to do in tHE suBcontiNeNt, fOR exampLe.

As tO iT BeiNg patroniziNg. SpEaking for Myself—i Think if YOu can’t bLame
peOplE foR the STaTe Of tHeIR owN CoUntRY, yoU’re takinG aGeNcy awAy frOM
THOse pEopLe. ThE BritIsh did lots of bAd tHingS In tHe subContiNent AnD
lootEd it. (ThEy alsO lEft some really goOd vaLues and idEas AnD
inStItutiONs.) But tHat EndEd 70 years Ago. In thAT saMe TIME pEriod, South
Korea wenT fROM bEing nearLy as poOR, aNd FAr more waR tOrn, To beING a
devElopED nAtion. It’s Not the ABsEnCe of intErFerencE fRom The West tHAt diD
that, iT’s the indUstry ANd virtue of the KORean people. LikEWiSE, To THe
exTenT Bangladesh Hasn’T GrowN as fASt As iT ShoulD (and tO bE FaIR, things
have gotten beTtEr at leAst on The economic siDe in the lasT DECade), who iS
to bLAmE? i think it’s patroNizinG to continuE To blame tHe wesT. Maybe blAme
the facT THat BanglAdeShiS suPpoRTEd A military dictATOr foR PResidenT,
suPported DisManTliNg sEcUlarism, inVited funDaMeNtAlIsm In froM The MiddlE
EAst, EtC. WhOse faULt is it? maybe It’s tHe FaULt oF the cleRKs IN The
BAnGlAdesH SuPrEme CoUrt tHAt dEmand brIbes to quiCklY Your FiLiNgs quicKly.
If we credit koReans for thE dEveLopmenT OF their coUntry, Bangladeshis must
geT Their faIr sHare oF blaMe for what Is hAppeniNg iN Their oWn counTry.

~~~
loStLogIN
thank YOU fOr tHaT reply, I see YOUr pOint aNd It’s a Good one.

i think that the two arGUmeNts are not in opPosItioN THoUgh. iT iS PosSiBLe
fOR Foreign interferEnce to have HaRMeD democracy IN thE MIddle EaSt and foR
locaLS to have Damaged it Too, and theRe Are pLENty Of examples Of this.

------
miNdg
 of ‘west’ you are using i nclude the  US?
In  ca se  itis r elevant, I amf romNew Zealand and thinkthe d is g usti n gbehav iour in th e reg io nsta rt e dlongbef ore the  US got in vol ve d and includ e sfar more c oun tries than a nyset de fi ned as ‘w est ern’.  Evenp lacesas far aw ay and as small a s Ne w Ze aland have endedu pw ith a record o f mass ac r es a ndmur ders whenin  invo l ved int he r e gio n .

~~~
rayine r
I’m sayin g  Am erican sbla m e thewest,  n o t n ecessarilythat  American s blam e 
Americ a . Ameri ca had  ve rylitt l eto  do  i n  th e  s ubc o nti nent, fo rex ample .

A s t o  itbei ng p atron izing. Speaki ngform yse lf—Ithink  ifyo u can ’t bla me
pe op le for the stat e of  their ow n c ou ntr y,  you’ r e taki ngage ncy awa y fromt hos ep e o pl e. The British did  l o t sof bad t hingsi nth e  subcont in ent  and l ooted  it. (T hey also  lefts om ereallygo od val ue s a ndideas andinstit utions.)  Butt hat ended 70 y e ars ago. In t h at s am e  tim e p eriod, Sout h
Ko r ea w entf ro m b e ing n early  a s  p o or, and far more wa rtorn,to be ing a
develop ed nation. I t ’s not t he a b se n ce of interfer encefrom the w e st thatdid
t hat, it’ s the ind u s try andvir tue  of  th e Ko rean people.L i kewi se , to th e
e xtent B ang lad esh  ha sn ’t grownas fastas  i tsh oul d (an d  to be f ai r,th ing s
hav e  gotte n bet terat  l e ast  on the ec o n omic  s id e in  th elastdeca d e),  who is 
to blame ? I thin kit ’s patr onizing to co nt inue to bl am e t he wes t .  Maybe b lame
the fact that Bang l adeshis  su pport ed a  military  di ctator  fo r  Presi dent,suppo rt edd i smant l i ng  se cu larism, in v i ted  fund am enta lism in  from the Middle
E a st,  etc. Whose f aul t is i t?  Ma y be it’ st hef a ult of the cler ks in theBa n gl adesh Supr e meCo urt tha t deman d bri b es to q uickly yo ur filing squic k l y.If we cred it Korea ns for th e  deve l op mentoftheirco unt ry, B anglad e shi s mus t
getth eir fa ir sh ar e of bla me for what is happenin g in t heirown  country. 

~ ~ ~
l ostloginThan k you fortha t r eply,  Is ee yo ur p o in t a n d it’ s ag ood one.Ithi n k  t hat the two a r gum entsare not in  opp osition though. I t  is possible
f or f o r eig n i n terf er ence to have h arm ed d emocracy  i n the Middl e East a nd for
l ocalsto hav e damag e d  i t  too,andthe re are pl ent yo f examp le so f this .

- -- ---
mi ndg
 of_‘west’ you_are using include the_US?

In case_it_is relevant,_I_am from New_Zealand and think_the disgusting
behaviour in the_region started long_before_the US got involved and includes
far more countries than any set defined as ‘western’._Even_places as_far_away
and_as small as New Zealand_have ended up with a_record of_massacres and
murders when in involved in the region.

~~~
rayiner
I’m_saying_Americans blame the_west, not necessarily that Americans blame
America. America had very_little to do in the subcontinent,_for example.

As to_it_being_patronizing. Speaking for myself—I_think if you can’t blame
people for_the state of their own country,_you’re taking agency away from
those people. The_British did lots of bad things_in the subcontinent and
looted it._(They also_left some really good values_and ideas and
institutions.)_But that_ended 70 years_ago. In that same time period,_South
Korea went from_being nearly as poor, and far_more_war torn, to_being_a
developed_nation. It’s_not the absence_of_interference from_the_west that did
that, it’s the industry_and_virtue of the Korean people. Likewise, to_the
extent Bangladesh hasn’t grown_as_fast as it should_(and to be fair, things
have_gotten better at least on the_economic side_in the_last decade), who is
to blame? I think it’s patronizing to continue_to blame the west. Maybe blame
the_fact that Bangladeshis supported_a military_dictator_for President,
supported dismantling_secularism,_invited fundamentalism_in from the Middle
East, etc. Whose fault_is it?_Maybe it’s the fault of the_clerks in the
Bangladesh Supreme_Court_that demand bribes to quickly your_filings quickly.
If we credit Koreans for_the development of their country,_Bangladeshis_must
get_their fair share of blame_for what is happening in their_own country.

~~~
lostlogin
Thank you_for that reply, I see your point_and_it’s a good one.

I think that_the_two arguments are not in opposition_though._It_is possible
for foreign interference to_have harmed democracy in the Middle_East and for
locals to have damaged it too, and_there are plenty_of examples of this.

------
mindg