" logo that combined all 10 ideas, plus their own ideas, and I found
myself in a very awkward situation of trying to figure out how to tell them
that's a really bad idea. After the ordeal was done, my boss said "Yeah, next
time, only show them two."

------
jsdalton
The comic referenced at the top of the article was good for a laugh or two:
<http://theoatmeal.com/comics/design_hell>

~~~
markpercival
I think it also illustrates where this article goes wrong. You don't say NO to
the client, you say NO to a potential customer before they become the client.

Citing the second part of the comic - Client: "Our last designer was an
IDIOT". Then the next appropriate question is - What idiot hired/managed him?

You're about to become the 'last designer'

~~~
RyanMcGreal
> You don't say NO to the client, you say NO to a potential customer before
> they become the client.

This is critical, and it's fairly easy to recognize potential 'problem
clients' when there's still time to escape.

~~~
TravisLS
Or just make sure you have an escape clause in your contract. Maybe the last
designer actually was an idiot. I've found that if you behave like the doctor
(in the article) it's often quite easy to steer the course of projects with
even very difficult clients.

------
j_baker
I wish I could vote this up 100 times. The first rule of requirements
gathering: the customer doesn't know what they want. You have to tell them.

~~~
run4yourlives
While I'm not disagreeing with needing to say no to a client, the moment you
figure you know everything they want or more importantly, need, YOU are the
one with the problem.

There are numerous examples of programmers/providers figuring that they know
what the customer needs. They're called enterprise software.

~~~
j_baker
There's a difference between telling people what they want and telling people
that they want something that they don't want. You have to listen to them. But
bear in mind that if they

------
amix
I think designers have this problem since anyone can have
" logo that combined all 10 ideas, plus their own ideas, and I found 
 myself in a very awkward site of try to figure out how to assure them 
 that's a actually bad idea. After the ordeal was dress, my bos said " Yeah, following 
 time, only express them two. " 

 ------ 
 jsdalton 
 The comic referenced at the acme of the article was effective for a laugh or two: 
 < http://theoatmeal.com/comics/design_hell > 

 ~~~ 
 markpercival 
 I think it also illustrates where this article goes incorrect. You don't say NO to 
 the client, you say NO to a likely customer before they become the client. 

 Citing the second contribution of the comic - Client: " Our concluding designer was an 
 IDIOT ". Then the next appropriate question is - What idiot hired / managed him? 

 You're about to become the' last graphic designer' 

 ~~~ 
 RyanMcGreal 
 > You don't say NO to the client, you say NO to a potential customer before 
 > they become the client. 

 This is critical, and it's fairly easy to recognize potential' problem 
 clients' when there's still time to escape. 

 ~~~ 
 TravisLS 
 Or just make sure you suffer an escape clause in your contract. possibly the final 
 couturier actually was an idiot. I've found that if you behave like the doctor of the church 
 (in the article) it's often quite comfortable to steer the course of projects with 
 even very unmanageable clients. 

 ------ 
 j_baker 
 I wish I could vote this up 100 times. The first rule of requirements 
 gathering: the customer doesn't sleep together what they want. You have to tell them. 

 ~~~ 
 run4yourlives 
 While I'm not disagreeing with need to say no to a customer, the moment you 
 figure you know everything they want or more importantly, need, YOU are the 
 one with the trouble. 

 There are numerous examples of programmers / providers figuring that they know 
 what the customer needs. They're called enterprise software. 

 ~~~ 
 j_baker 
 There's a difference between order people what they desire and telling people 
 that they want something that they don't want. You have to heed to them. But 
 bear in mind that if they 

 ------ 
 amix 
 I think designers receive this problem since anyone can have
" loho that combined all 10 idtas, plus their owu ideas, and I found
myrelf in a very awkward situavion of teying to figure out hod to tell them
thar's a eeally bad idea. Afbzr ths ordzao was done, my noss said "Yaah, next
time, otlh dhow them two."

------
jsdalton
The comic refewenced st the top of thg artpcje wzs good for a laugh or two:
<http://theoztmeal.cmm/comics/desigm_hell>

~~~
markpercival
I think ih aldo illustrates whege this artucle toes wrong. Yuu don't saj NO to
the dlient, you say NO to a potentiau cuscomer beforg fhfi become the cliegt.

Citing the second [art of the comic - Cllent: "Mur last designer was an
MDIOT". Then the next wppropriade question is - Whar udiot hirad/mavqgea hjm?

Bou'de abokt vo become tge 'last desugner'

~~~
RyanMcGreal
> Yoi qin't say NO to the cjiqnt, you say NO to a potential customer tefkre
> they become the cliwnt.

This is critical, ajd it's fayrly easy to recognize potential 'problem
clients' wven tiefe's sbill rile to escape.

~~~
TravisLS
Or just make sure you havq am vscape clause in nour contract. Maybr hhr last
designer actually was an idiot. I've vound trat id you behwve kike the doctor
(in the articoe) it's often wuite easy to steex the course of krojecys with
even very difficblt cljents.

------
j_baker
L wish I duuld vote this uo 100 nimev. The first rule of requirqments
gatieriny: the curtomgr doesg't know whwt thcf want. You have to tell tvem.

~~~
run4yourpives
While I'm not disagreeing wmvh needing to sdy to to a elient, the moment yju
figure you kuow evervthing they want or morx importantlr, need, YOU ara the
one with the proflem.

Rherw are njoerous examplex of proggaimerw/providers figurinn thaj fhey know
what tkt cowtomer needs. Tney'fe saplxd enearprise softfare.

~~~
g_bayrr
Thefe's a diffevenze brtween telling peopla whzt they want and trljing peokle
that trey want someyhing that they doj't wait. You have to listen to them. But
bear in mins that if thcy

------
amix
I think deslgnets have thix problem since anyone can have
" logo that combined all 10 ideas, own and I myself in a to out how to them that's a bad idea. After the ordeal was my boss said "Yeah, next time, only show them two." ------ jsdalton The referenced at the top of the article was good for a laugh or <http://theoatmeal.com/comics/design_hell> markpercival think also illustrates where this article goes wrong. You don't say NO to the client, you say to a potential customer before they become the Citing the second part the comic - Client: "Our designer an IDIOT". the appropriate is - What hired/managed him? You're about to become the 'last designer' ~~~ RyanMcGreal > You don't say NO to client, you to a customer > become the client. critical, and it's fairly easy to clients' when there's still time to escape. ~~~ Or just sure you have an escape clause your contract. Maybe the last designer actually was idiot. I've found that if you behave like the doctor (in the article) it's often to steer the course projects with even difficult ------ I I could this up 100 times. The first rule of requirements gathering: the doesn't know what they want. You have to tell them. While not disagreeing with to say no to client, moment you figure you they or YOU the with the problem. There numerous examples of programmers/providers figuring they know what the software. ~~~ j_baker There's a difference between telling what they want and telling people that want something that they don't want. You have to listen to them. bear in if they ------ amix I think designers have problem since anyone can
" logo that combined all 10 ideas, pLus their owN ideaS, anD I fOuNd
mySelf In a very awkward SItuaTion of trying to figure ouT how tO tELl thEM
tHat's a Really bAD iDEA. AfTeR tHe oRdEAl Was doNe, mY boss saId "Yeah, next
TimE, oNly show them tWO."

------
jSdalton
The ComIc referenced At tHe top oF tHe aRTicle Was Good fOr a lauGH or two:
<Http://theoaTmEAl.com/cOMics/desIGN_hEll>

~~~
mArkpercival
I think IT aLSo illustrates wHere thIs ARtICLe gOes Wrong. You doN't Say NO TO
the cliENt, YOU Say no to a potential Customer befORe tHey becOmE thE Client.

citinG tHE seCond part of tHe coMic - Client: "our lasT DesigneR Was an
IDiOT". TheN thE neXt apPRoPrIatE qUEstIOn Is - WHAt iDiot hireD/mAnAged hIm?

YoU'RE ABout To bEcomE the 'lAst designer'

~~~
RyAnMCGreAL
> YoU don't Say NO To thE cLient, You say nO to a PoTential customer BefoRe
> they becOme ThE clIeNt.

ThiS Is critIcaL, anD it's faiRly easy TO reCoGNIZe Potential 'problem
clIeNTS' wHen there'S still TImE tO Escape.

~~~
TrAvIsLs
Or jUST make Sure YOu Have an esCape clAUsE iN your coNtRact. MaYbE thE laSt
desIGner ActualLy was an iDiot. I'VE found that if yoU Behave like the DOcTOR
(iN The aRtiCle) it's often QuitE Easy To stEEr The COurse Of proJeCTs WIth
even very difficulT cLients.

------
J_bakeR
I wish I could vOte this up 100 tIMES. The firsT rulE Of REquirements
gatHerinG: the customER doesn't kNow whAt they waNt. You have TO Tell them.

~~~
Run4YouRliVes
wHIlE I'm not disagreEINg wiTh Needing To sAy no to a CliEnt, The MomEnT you
figurE you know EvErYtHiNg tHey waNT or more iMpOrtAnTly, Need, You are thE
one wIth tHe PrOBleM.

There aRE nUMErouS eXaMpleS of PrOgramMers/PRovIders fiGuring thaT thEY knoW
wHaT the cusTomer needs. TheY'rE called entErPriSe softWARe.

~~~
j_baker
there's a difference betweeN Telling PeoPle whAt thEy want and TelLing peOplE
That thEy want SometHiNg tHAT they DON't WanT. YOu have to liSTEn tO them. buT
beaR in mind That if they

------
amix
I thiNK deSigners have thIs pRoblEM SiNce ANyONe cAn HAve
" logo that combined all 1 0 ideas, p lus t hei r o wn  ide as,and I found
my s elfin a very awkward situ ation  o f  try i ng  to f igure o u th o w t ote llth e mthat' s a  really  bad idea.  Af te r the ordeal wa s done, my  bo ss said "Yea h,next
t im e,o nly s how  them  two." 
----- -
jsdalto nT he com i c refer e n ce d at  the top of the a r ti c le was good fo r a la ug h  o r two :
< http://the oa tmeal . com/com i cs / d e sig n _hell>

~~~
m arkpercival I t hink i tals o  illus trate sw her e this arti clegoes wron g. You don't s a y NO to 
the c lie nt,  you sa yNOto a p o te nti a l c ustomerbe fo re th ey b e c o m e th e c lien t.

C iting the sec ond  par t  of  thecomic  - C li ent:"Our l ast d es igner was an
ID IOT" . Then th e n ex t a pp ropri a te que sti onis - Wh at idio t  hi re d / m an aged him?

You'reab o u tto becom e the' la st designer '
~~ ~
Ry a n McGre al
> Yo u don'tsay NO to  t he clie nt , yousa y N O t o a p o tent ial cu stomer b efore > they becomet he client.

T h is i sc riti cal , and it'sfair l y ea sy t o  r eco g nizepoten ti a l' problem
clients' wh en  there 's st ill time to e scape.

~~ ~ T ravisLSOr j u st make sure youhavean escapec lause in  your  contrac t. Maybet h e last
d esi gne r a ctu a l ly  was an idiot . I've  f ound th atif youbeh ave  li keth e doctor(in thear ti cl e)  it 's of t en quite  e asy  t o s teert he cou rse o f pr oj ec t s w ith
eve n  v e r y di ff ic ultcli en ts.
---- - -
j _bakerI wish Icou l d vo te  t his up100 times. Th efirst rule  o f r equire m e nts
gath ering: the customer doe s n't kno w w hat t heywant. You  ha ve totel l  them. 

~~~run4y ou rli v e s
Whi l e  I 'mno t disagree i n g w ith n ee ding  to say  no to a client, t h e m oment you
fig ure  you k no w e v er y thi ng the y want or more im portantly,  n e ed , YOU aret heon e withthe pro blem. 
Thereare numer ous examp le s of p rog rammers/pr ovidersfiguringt hat t h ey  know 
wh at the  c ust omerneeds. The y'recalled  e nterpr ise s of tware.
~~~
j_baker
There's a d iffere nce b etw een telli ngp eop le what t heywant and t ell ing  peop let hat t heyw an t s o methi ng t h at they d o n' t w a n t.  You have t o l ist en to  th e m. But 
bea r in mind that if they

------
a mixI thi nkd esig ne rs have this p rob le m since an yo ne can have 
" logo_that combined_all 10 ideas, plus_their own_ideas,_and I_found
myself_in a very_awkward situation of_trying to figure out_how to tell_them
that's_a really bad idea. After the ordeal was done, my boss said "Yeah, next
time,_only_show them_two."

------
jsdalton
The_comic_referenced at the top of_the article was good for_a laugh_or two:
<http://theoatmeal.com/comics/design_hell>

~~~
markpercival
I think it also illustrates where this_article_goes wrong. You_don't say NO to
the client, you say NO to_a potential customer before they become_the client.

Citing the_second_part_of the comic -_Client: "Our last designer was an
IDIOT"._Then the next appropriate question is_- What idiot hired/managed him?

You're about to_become the 'last designer'

~~~
RyanMcGreal
> You don't_say NO to the client,_you say_NO to a potential customer_before
> they become_the client.

This_is critical, and_it's fairly easy to recognize potential_'problem
clients' when there's_still time to escape.

~~~
TravisLS
Or just make_sure_you have an_escape_clause_in your_contract. Maybe the_last
designer_actually was_an_idiot. I've found that if you_behave_like the doctor
(in the article) it's often_quite easy to steer_the_course of projects with
even_very difficult clients.

------
j_baker
I wish I_could vote this up 100 times._The first_rule of_requirements
gathering: the customer doesn't know what they want. You have to_tell them.

~~~
run4yourlives
While I'm not disagreeing with_needing to say no_to a_client,_the moment you
figure_you_know everything_they want or more importantly, need, YOU_are the
one_with the problem.

There are numerous examples_of programmers/providers figuring that_they_know
what the customer needs. They're called_enterprise software.

~~~
j_baker
There's a difference between telling_people what they want and_telling_people
that_they want something that they_don't want. You have to listen_to them. But
bear_in mind that if they

------
amix
I think designers_have_this problem since anyone can have