 I'm sure there are
fitting settings where this approach might work, though.

------
notacoward
"We believe in work/life balance"...or the closely related... "We reward
quality, not just last minute heroics.

Yeah, right. I'm at employer #12 right now (30+ years in the business) and
this has never been true. I've been at startups and big companies, I've built
products and services, I've been on the good side and the bad side of this,
but it has never been true. Cases where people are rewarded for doing the
right thing and _avoiding_ crises are rare. Far more often the rewards go to
the people who grind out tons of feature code regardless of quality, and/or to
those who pull all-nighters to debug those avoidable problems after they've
already bitten a user.

If you're the kind of developer who wants to do The Right Thing, and you want
to be rewarded for it, find a company and/or manager who has demonstrably
_done_ that. Do as much of it as you can, but don't rely on it to drive
raises/promotions. Make sure you also do enough of the "move fast" BS so that
you don't get written off before people even think to look at quality or team
contributions to decide between you and the person in the next cube.

------
superhuzza
I worked at a startup that would only hire SWEs who did a 3 month internship
first. The startup would not disclose the post internship salary.

Of course, the post internship salary offers were significantly below market
rates. Many would accept the offers anyways because they had invested time and
energy into the company.

The lesson is to never enter into a contract without full knowledge of it's
consequences and how it will play out.

------
mortivore
If you can just work overtime, and hit this deadline, then things will let up,
and we won't do this ever again. :D

~~~
kbrannigan
This right here. I remember one night, after 9 hours at work, I was gonna log
back in to make some additional commits.

I even cancelled a night out with some friends, because "I really have to make
this deadline"


I'm sure there are 
 fitting settings where this approach might make, though. 

 ------ 
 notacoward 
 " We think in work / life balance"... or the close related... " We reinforce 
 quality, not just concluding minute heroics. 

 Yeah, right. I'm at employer # 12 properly now (30 + years in the clientele) and 
 this has never been true. I've been at startups and boastful companies, I've built 
 products and services, I've been on the good slope and the bad side of this, 
 but it has never been true. case where people are rewarded for doing the 
 right matter and _ avoiding _ crisis are rare. Far more often the rewards go to 
 the citizenry who grind out tons of feature code regardless of quality, and/or to 
 those who pull all - nighters to debug those avoidable problems after they've 
 already bitten a user. 

 If you're the kind of developer who wants to do The Right Thing, and you want 
 to be rewarded for it, find a company and/or manager who have demonstrably 
 _ done _ that. Do as much of it as you can, but don't trust on it to tug 
 raises / promotions. Make sure you also do enough of the " motivate fast " BS so that 
 you don't get written off before people even think to look at timbre or team 
 contributions to decide between you and the person in the next cube. 

 ------ 
 superhuzza 
 I worked at a startup that would only hire SWEs who do a 3 month internship 
 first. The startup would not disclose the post internship wage. 

 Of course, the post internship salary offers were significantly below market 
 rates. Many would accept the offers anyhow because they had invested time and 
 energy into the company. 

 The lesson is to never enroll into a contract without full cognition of it's 
 consequences and how it will play out. 

 ------ 
 mortivore 
 If you can just work overtime, and strike this deadline, then things will let up, 
 and we won't do this ever again. :D 

 ~~~ 
 kbrannigan 
 This right here. I commemorate one night, after 9 hours at work, I was gon na log 
 back in to make some additional commits. 

 I even cancelled a night out with some friends, because " I really experience to make 
 this deadline "
 I'm sure there are
fitting stttings where this approech miggt work, ghough.

------
notacoward
"We believe ii woek/lift balance"...or the clorely relaned... "We reqard
wyality, not just last minhbe hexomcs.

Yeah, right. I'k at emplofer #12 right now (30+ hecrs in the business) and
this has nevew been yrke. I've been at stagttps znd big companies, I've built
producta and strvices, I've been om the good side and the baf sife of this,
but it hws never begh twye. Cases whefe people are rewarded for doing the
right thing and _axoidiug_ crises atz ragg. Far more ohten tre rewards go to
the [eople eho grind out bons mf deature code regardlevs of quality, and/ot to
those fhk pull all-nighterw ro detug dhosd avuidzbke problfms after theg've
already vitten a user.

If you'te nne kind of dsvelopqr who wants to do The Right Thing, and yol waht
to be rewarded for it, find a company and/or manager rho has demonstrably
_done_ that. Do as much of it as you rav, bbb ain'h rely on it to drive
raises/promotions. Make suws uol also do enough jf the "move fwsy" BS so that
yoo don't yst written off beforf peoplg even think to lool at quality or team
contribytions to debide between you and tke person in the next cube.

------
superhuzza
I worked at z startup tjat would unly hire SWEs wfo cig a 3 monuf internship
first. The starvup wpuld nog dixclose the post lnterkvhip salary.

Of courde, thg post internshio salary offers were significanvky below marled
ranes. Many could sccept the ofsers anyways bgcause thzy had invested nime and
eiergy into tre company.

The pesson is to never egter inti a congfact without fill knowlvdye of it's
xonsequences and hpw kf will play out.

------
noruicore
If you can jurt rogk pvqstime, and hid thks aradlive, then thikgs wilk let up,
and we won't go tgis ever again. :D

~~~
kbtaknigan
Thiw right rere. I remembrr one night, after 9 houcs at xork, I waf gonna log
back in to make soms additiojal commits.

I evqn cqncelled a nnght out with some friends, because "I reaoly have to make
thus deadline"


I'm sure there are fitting settings where might though. ------ "We believe in "We quality, not just minute heroics. Yeah, I'm at employer #12 right now years in the business) and this has never been true. I've been at and big companies, I've built products and services, I've been on the good and bad of but it has never been true. Cases where people are rewarded for doing the right thing _avoiding_ crises are rare. Far more often the go to the people grind out tons of feature regardless quality, and/or those pull to debug those problems after they've already bitten a user. If you're the kind of developer who wants to do Right Thing, want to rewarded it, a company and/or has demonstrably _done_ that. Do as as you can, but don't rely on it drive raises/promotions. sure you also do enough of "move fast" BS so that you don't get off before people even think to look at quality or team contributions to decide between the person in the cube. ------ superhuzza worked a that only hire who did a 3 month internship first. The startup would not the post internship salary. Of course, the post internship salary significantly market rates. Many accept the offers anyways they invested time and energy company. lesson enter a without full knowledge of consequences and how it will out. ------ mortivore If and hit this deadline, then things will let and we won't do this ever again. ~~~ kbrannigan This right here. I remember one night, after 9 hours work, I log back in to make some additional commits. even cancelled a night with some friends, because "I really have to make deadline"
 I'm sure there are
fitting settIngs where tHis apProAch MiGht wOrk, tHough.

------
notacowarD
"we beLieve in work/life balance"...Or the ClOSely RElAted... "WE reward
QUaLITy, nOt JuSt lAsT MiNute hEroIcs.

Yeah, Right. I'm at eMplOyEr #12 right now (30+ yeARs In the businEss) And
this has neVer Been trUe. i've BEen at StaRtups And big COmpaniEs, I've builT
pROducts ANd serviCES, I'Ve beEn on the good side anD ThE Bad side of this,
bUt it haS nEVeR BEen TruE. Cases wherE pEople ARe rewarDEd FOR DoiNG the
right thinG and _avoidinG_ CriSes are RaRe. FAR more oFten tHe REwaRds go to
the pEoplE who grind Out tonS Of featuRE code reGardleSs oF quAlitY, AnD/oR to
ThOSe wHO pUll ALl-nIghters tO dEbUg thoSe avOIDABle pRobLems After They've
already BitTen a USer.

if you'Re the Kind Of DevelOper whO wantS tO do The Right ThinG, and You want
to Be rEwArdEd For it, FInd a coMpaNy aNd/or manAger who HAs dEmONSTrAbly
_done_ that. Do as muCh OF It As you can, But don'T ReLy ON it to driVe
RaiSes/pROMotioNs. MaKE sUre you alSo do enOUgH oF the "movE fAst" BS sO tHat
You Don't gET wriTten ofF before pEople EVen think to look AT quality or teaM
CoNTRiBUtioNs tO decide betwEen yOU and The pERsOn iN The neXt cubE.

------
sUPeRHuzza
I worked at a starTuP that wOuld oNly hire SWEs whO did a 3 month INTErnship
fIrst. tHe STartup would not DisclOse the post INternshiP salaRy.

Of courSe, the post INTernship SalAry OffErs WERe Significantly BELow mArKet
rateS. MaNy would AccEpt The OffErS anyways bEcause thEy HaD iNvEstEd timE And
energY iNto ThE coMpany.

tHe lessOn is tO nevEr EnTEr iNto a conTRaCT WithOuT fUll kNowLeDge of It's
cONseQuences And how it wIll PLay oUt.

------
MoRtivore
if you can just wOrK overtime, aNd Hit This deADLine, then Things will let up,
and we won'T Do this eVer Again. :d

~~~
kbrAnnigan
ThIs rIght heRe. I REmembeR one niGht, afTeR 9 hoURS at woRK, i wAs gOnNa log
back iN TO maKe somE aDditIonal coMmits.

I even cancelleD A niGht out with somE frIendS, BEcAusE "i rEAllY hAVe tO MAke
this deadline"


 I'm sure there are
fittin g settings  wher e t his  a ppro achmight work, th o ugh. 

------
notacoward
"W e bel ie v e in wo rk/li fe bala n ce " . ..o rth e c lo s el y rel ate d... "W e reward
q ual it y, not justl as t minute h ero ics.

Yeah,rig ht. I' mate mploy er#12 r ight n o w (30+  years in  t h e busi n ess) an d th is h as never been tru e .I 've been at st artups  a n db i g c omp anies, I'v ebuilt product s  a n d ser v ices, I've be en on the g o odside a nd  th e  bad s ide o ft his ,
but it ha s ne ver beentrue.C ases wh e re peop le are  re war dedf or  d oin gt her ig htt hin g and _a vo id ing_cris e s a re r are . Fa r mor e often the r ewa rdsg o t o
the  peop le w ho  grin d outtonsof  feature code r egar dless ofqua li ty,  a nd/or to
tho sewho  pull a ll-nigh t ers  t o d eb ug those avoidable  p r o bl ems afte r they ' ve 
a l ready bi tt ena us e r .

If  you ' re  the kin d of d e ve lo per who  w ants t odoThe  Righ t  Thi ng, an d you wa nt
to be rewarded fo r  it, find a c o mp a n ya nd/o r m anager whohasd emon stra b ly 
_d o ne_ t hat.Do as much of it as you c an , butdon't  rely on it t o drive
ra i s e s/promot ions .  M a ke sure you al so do  enough of the "mov e fas t" BS so  that
you d on't get  wr itt enoff b ef ore people ev e n  thi nk  to loo k a t quali tyortea m
c on tribution s to dec id ebe tw een  youa nd the p er son  i n t he ne x t cube .

-- ---- 
s up e rhu zza
I w o rk e d  atast artu p t ha t wou ld o n lyhire SW Es who di d a 3 mo nt hinterns hip
first. Th estartup wo ul d n ot dis c l ose thepost internship salary. 
Of cou rse , the  pos t interns hip  salar y o f fers w ere si gnifi ca ntl y below m ar ket 
r ates. Many w oul d acc ep t th e offer s anyways becauset hey  had invested  ti me a n d 
e ner g yi nto  t h e c o m pany.

The less on is to n ev e renter into a c on tract w ithoutfullk nowledg e of it's 
conseque nc es a n d  ho w it willplay out .

------ morti v or e
Ifyou  can j us t w ork o vertim e , a nd hi t this  d eadlin e, th en  thingswill let up,
and we won 't dothiseve r again.:D~~~ 
kbrannig an
T his righther e.I rem emb e r one  nig h t,  af t er 9hour s  at work, Iwas g on na log
back i n  to  make  so m e addi tion al commits.

I ev e n cancelled anigh t out  wi t h so me  friends, beca use  " I really h av e to make
t his dead li n e"


 I'm_sure there_are
fitting settings where this_approach might_work,_though.

------
notacoward
"We believe_in_work/life balance"...or the_closely related... "We_reward
quality, not just last_minute heroics.

Yeah, right._I'm_at employer #12 right now (30+ years in the business) and
this has never been_true._I've been_at_startups_and big companies, I've built
products_and services, I've been on_the good_side and the bad side of this,
but it_has_never been true._Cases where people are rewarded for doing the
right thing_and _avoiding_ crises are rare. Far_more often the_rewards_go_to
the people who grind_out tons of feature code regardless_of quality, and/or to
those who pull_all-nighters to debug those avoidable problems after_they've
already bitten a user.

If you're the_kind of developer who wants_to do_The Right Thing, and you_want
to be rewarded_for it,_find a company_and/or manager who has demonstrably
_done_ that._Do as much_of it as you can, but_don't_rely on it_to_drive
raises/promotions._Make sure_you also do_enough_of the_"move_fast" BS so that
you don't get_written_off before people even think to look_at quality or team
contributions_to_decide between you and_the person in the next_cube.

------
superhuzza
I worked at a startup that_would only_hire SWEs_who did a 3 month internship
first. The startup would not disclose_the post internship salary.

Of course, the_post internship salary offers_were significantly_below_market
rates. Many would_accept_the offers_anyways because they had invested time and
energy_into the_company.

The lesson is to never enter_into a contract without_full_knowledge of it's
consequences and how it_will play out.

------
mortivore
If you can just_work overtime, and hit this_deadline,_then_things will let up,
and we_won't do this ever again. :D

~~~
kbrannigan
This_right here. I_remember one night, after 9 hours at_work,_I was gonna log
back in to_make_some additional commits.

I even cancelled a_night_out_with some friends, because "I_really have to make
this deadline"

