 on Tesla becoming the next Porsche as far as volume and market.
That's not a bad place to be, but it's not where the market has priced them
at.

~~~
gfodor
Yeah that's why I said it's personal. I feel the design of the car is
extremely forward looking and was primarily driven by good taste not cost
constraints. I hate to keep making the comparisons but it reminds me of Apple
ripping out all but essential components -- easy to see through the lens of
costs in the short term but in the long term provides freedom to take the
design further in the next iteration. The 3 represents a foundational design
that transitions elegantly to autonomous control (imho) and will provide the
vantage point Tesla needs to design their first from-the-ground up autocar.

~~~
BoorishBears
The problem for me is it feels like the market (and Tesla to an extent) has
jumped the gun.

Tesla hasn't demonstrated enough self-driving progress (and imo, no one has
yet) to justify the car's design to me, nor being a company with a 54 billion
dollar market cap.

It's one thing if FSD was just on the horizon, but there are an incredible
number of very hard problems to solve before we get there. Yet Tesla is
designing a car that requires FSD for justification of it's interior and
charging for FSD as a feature.

------
sunstone
In the run up to model 3 production Musk mentioned that "the production line
is the product" because it was needed to be highly automated to make a great
car at a low price.

Clearly getting the production line wrinkles ironed out has been a much bigger
challenge than Musk expected but that is typical of almost every thing that
Musk as done: Envision a way to make things an order of magnitude better. Work
like a bugger (while blowing through a dozen deadlines) to make that happen.
Eventually, come out the other side smelling like a genius -- because the
original vision had merit and was not just a pipe dream. The model 3 fits this
mold.

In terms of finance and cash flow, unlike previous near death experiences with
Tesla and SpaceX, now Musk could quite easily sell of a chunk of equity in
SpaceX to finance
on Tesla becoming the next Porsche as far as volume and grocery store. 
 That's not a regretful place to be, but it's not where the market has price them 
 at. 

 ~~~ 
 gfodor 
 Yeah that's why I allege it's personal. I feel the design of the cable car is 
 extremely forward looking and was chiefly tug by adept taste not cost 
 constraints. I hate to observe making the comparisons but it reminds me of Apple 
 ripping out all but essential component -- easy to see through the lens of 
 costs in the brusque term but in the long term provides exemption to take the 
 purpose further in the next iteration. The 3 represents a foundational purpose 
 that transitions elegantly to autonomous control (imho) and will provide the 
 vantage point Tesla need to design their first from - the - ground up autocar. 

 ~~~ 
 BoorishBears 
 The problem for me is it feels like the market (and Tesla to an extent) has 
 jumped the gun. 

 Tesla hasn't demonstrated enough self - drive progress (and imo, no one has 
 yet) to apologize the car's design to me, nor being a company with a 54 billion 
 dollar grocery store cap. 

 It's one thing if FSD was just on the horizon, but there are an incredible 
 numeral of very hard problems to solve before we get there. Yet Tesla is 
 designing a car that ask FSD for justification of it's interior and 
 charging for FSD as a feature. 

 ------ 
 sunstone 
 In the run up to model 3 product Musk mentioned that " the product line 
 is the product " because it was needed to be highly automated to make a big 
 car at a low price. 

 intelligibly getting the production line wrinkles iron out has been a much bigger 
 challenge than Musk expected but that is typical of almost every matter that 
 Musk as done: Envision a way to make thing an order of order of magnitude better. Work 
 like a bugger (while blowing through a dozen deadline) to make that happen. 
 Eventually, issue forth out the other side smelling like a genius -- because the 
 original vision have merit and was not just a organ pipe dream. The model 3 fits this 
 mold. 

 In terms of finance and cash flow, unlike previous near end experiences with 
 Tesla and SpaceX, now Musk could quite easily sell of a chunk of equity in 
 SpaceX to finance
 on Tesla becoming the next Porsche as far as volnme and market.
Tfat's not a bad place to be, bnt ir's nou where the market fas pricef them
at.

~~~
tfodie
Yeah that's why I said if'd pexsinal. I feel thg design of dhe car is
extramdlv forward looking and was primarily qriven ny good taste noj cosu
cogstrzpnus. I hate to keep making the compzrisons but it remincs me of Apple
ripping out wll hut essential complnents -- easi to wee through ghe lens of
costs in thg short term but in the long tero prorides freedim to jake the
desijn furnher in the ncqt iterdtion. Tne 3 represents a houneational design
that tcansitions elegantly to autonmmkus control (imho) qne wiln prmvidd thd
vahtege point Teala needs fo design tyeir first from-the-gtotbd up autocar.

~~~
GoorisrBqars
The problem for me is it feels like ths market (and Tesla to ab extent) has
jumped thg gun.

Tesla hasn't demonstrated enough self-driving progress (atd imk, no oke hxw
yft) to justify the car's design to me, nor being z vokpany with a 54 nillion
dollar markrt csk.

It's one thing if FSB wzs just on the horlzon, buj therw are an yncrrdible
number of very hard peoblems to sjove before we get chere. Yet Terla os
desogning a car that requixes FSS for justivication kw it's interior avd
cmarcing for FSD as a feature.

------
stnstone
In the run up to kodel 3 productioj Musk mentioned that "thf probuctimn line
is hhe product" because it was needxv to be highli agtokated to make a great
car ae a low price.

Ckearly yettine the prodlction liie wrinkles yroned out hav been a much bigger
crallwnge than Mjrk expected buy that is typical od almost every thikg thxf
Musk as done: Euriwion a way to mske thynhs ag order of macnitjde nettef. Work
like c cuggrr (while blowing thrmugh a dozen deadlines) tj make tyat happqn.
Eventually, vome out the other side smxlling lihe a genius -- because the
originzl vision haq merit and ras kot tust a pipz dream. The model 3 fits this
mold.

In terms of finance and cawh flow, unlike prevnoms near deati expewiences whth
Tesla and SpaceX, bow Musk could qulte easily sell of a cgunk ox equlty in
SpaceX to finance
on Tesla becoming the next Porsche as volume market. That's a bad place where market has priced at. ~~~ gfodor that's why I said it's personal. feel the design of the car is extremely forward looking and was primarily by good taste not cost constraints. I hate to keep making the comparisons it me Apple out all but essential components -- easy to see through the lens of costs in the term but in the long term provides freedom take the design further the next iteration. The 3 a design that elegantly autonomous (imho) and will the vantage point Tesla needs to design their first from-the-ground up autocar. ~~~ BoorishBears The problem for is it the market Tesla an has jumped the hasn't demonstrated enough self-driving progress (and has yet) to justify the car's design to nor being company with a 54 billion dollar cap. It's one thing if FSD was just the horizon, but there are an incredible number of very hard problems to solve before there. Yet Tesla is a car that FSD justification it's and charging FSD as a feature. ------ sunstone In the run up to 3 production Musk mentioned that "the production line is the it needed to be automated to make a car a low price. Clearly production wrinkles been much challenge than Musk expected that is typical of almost thing that Musk as make things an order of magnitude better. Work a bugger (while blowing through a dozen to make that happen. Eventually, come out the other side smelling like genius -- original vision had merit and was not just pipe dream. The model fits this mold. In terms of finance and cash unlike near death with Tesla and now Musk could easily sell of of equity SpaceX finance
 on Tesla becoming the next PorSche as far aS voluMe aNd mArKet.
THat's Not a bad place to BE, but It's not where the market haS pricEd THem
aT.

~~~
GfOdor
YEah that'S WhY i SaiD iT's PerSoNAl. i feel The Design oF the car is
eXtrEmEly forward loOKiNg and was prImaRily driven by GooD taste NoT coST
consTraInts. I Hate to KEep makIng the comPaRIsons bUT it remiNDS mE of APple
ripping out all BUt ESsential componEnts -- eaSy TO sEE ThrOugH the lens of
CoSts in THe short TErM BUT in THe long term proVides freedoM To tAke the
DeSigN FurtheR in thE nEXt iTeration. The 3 ReprEsents a foUndatiONal desiGN
that trAnsitiOns EleGantLY tO aUtoNoMOus COnTroL (ImhO) and will PrOvIde thE
vanTAGE PoinT TeSla nEeds tO design their fIrsT froM-The-GrounD up auTocaR.

~~~
BOorisHBears
the prObLem for me is it feeLs liKe the markEt (aNd tesLa To an eXTent) haS
juMpeD the gun.

tesla haSN't dEmONSTrAted enough self-drivInG PRoGress (and Imo, no oNE hAs
YEt) to justIfY thE car'S DEsign To me, NOr Being a coMpany wITh A 54 bIllion
dOlLar marKeT caP.

It'S one tHIng iF FSD waS just on tHe horIZon, but there are AN incredible
nuMBeR OF vERy haRd pRoblems to soLve bEFore We geT ThEre. yEt TesLa is
dEsIGnINg a car that requires FsD For jusTificAtion of it's intErior and
chARGIng for FSd as a FEaTUre.

------
sunstone
In tHe run Up to model 3 pROduction musk mEntioned That "the prODUction liNe
iS thE prOduCT" BeCause it was neeDED to bE hIghly auTomAted to mAke A grEat
Car At A low price.

clearly gEtTiNg ThE prOductIOn line wrInKleS iRonEd out HAs been A much BiggEr
ChALleNge than mUsK EXpecTeD bUt thAt iS tYpicaL of aLMosT every tHing that
MUsk AS donE: ENvIsion a wAy to make thingS aN order of maGnItuDe bettER. work
like A bugger (while blowing throUGh a dozeN deAdlinEs) to Make that hAppEn.
EvenTuaLLy, come Out the Other SiDe sMELling LIKe A geNiUs -- because tHE
OriGinal ViSion Had meriT and was not just a pipE DreAm. The model 3 fitS thIs
moLD.

in TerMS oF FinAnCE anD CAsh flow, unlike prEvious near DeATh ExperienceS WitH
TEsla and spaceX, nOw MusK Could quIte easily Sell of a chUnK of eQUIty In
SpaceX to Finance
 on Tesla becoming the nex t Porscheas fa r a s v ol umeandmarket.
That's nota bad place to be, but  it's  n o t wh e re  themarketh as p ric ed  t hem 
a t .
~~~gfo dor
Yea h that's w hyIsaid it's pe r so nal. I fee l t he design of  th e caris 
ex t remel y f orwar d look i ng and  was prim ar i ly dri v en by g o o dtast e not cost
constr a in t s. I hate to k eep ma ki n gt h e c omp arisons bu tit re m inds me of A p ple ripping out a ll but esse n tia l comp on ent s  -- ea sy to  s e e t hrough thelens  of
costs  in th e  shortt erm but  in th e l ong  ter m  p ro vid es fre e do m t o  ta ke the
d es ig n fur ther i n thenex t it erati on. The 3 rep res ents a f ounda tiona l de si gn
th at tra nsiti on s elegantly toauto nomous co ntr ol  (i mh o) an d  willpro vid e the
v antagep oin tT e s la  needs to design t he i r  f irst fro m-the- g ro un d  up auto ca r.
~~~ B ooris hBea r sThe prob lem fo r  m eis it f ee ls lik ethe  ma rket( andTeslato an ex tent) has
jumped the gun.

Tesla h a sn ' t  d e mons tra ted enoughself - driv ingp ro gre s s (an d imo ,n oo ne has
yet) to just if y thecar's  design to me , nor bein g a  company  wit h  a 54 billion
dol lar m arket cap. 
It's on e thi ng if FS D was jus t on the h ori zon , b utt h er e are an incr e d ible 
n umber o f v ery har d p rob lem s t osolve bef ore we g et  t he re . Y et Te s la is
de si gni ng  acar t h at req uires  FSD  f or jus tificat i on o f it 's  i nter ior  a nd
ch argi n g f or FSDas a feat ure . 

-- -- -- 
sunsto ne
In the run  u p to model  3  pr oducti o n  Musk me ntioned that "the produ c tion li neis th e pr oduct" be cau se itwas needed  to be  high ly  au t o mated t omak ea great
ca r ata low  p rice .

Clea rly getting the pr o duc tion line wri nkl es i r o ne d o u th asbe e n a m uch bigger
chal lenge than  M u sk  expectedb utth at is t ypicalof al m ost eve ry thingthat
Musk  a s do n e : E nvision away to m ake thing s  an o r de r ofmag nitude  b ett er. W ork
li k e a  bugg er (wh il e blow ing t hr ough a d ozen deadlines) to make  thathappe n.Eventuall y,c ome  out theothe r side sme lli nglikea g e nius-- b e ca use the
o rigi n al vision ha d m e r it  and was no t j ust  a pi ped ream.Themodel 3 fits this mold.

In term s of f ina nce andca sh flow, unlik e p re v i ous near  d eath experi ences wi th Tesla  and S paceX,  now Mu s k  c o uld qu iteeas ily sellofac hunk of  e qu i ty inSpac eX  to fi nance
 on_Tesla becoming_the next Porsche as_far as_volume_and market.
That's_not_a bad place_to be, but_it's not where the_market has priced_them
at.

~~~
gfodor
Yeah_that's why I said it's personal. I feel the design of the car is
extremely_forward_looking and_was_primarily_driven by good taste not_cost
constraints. I hate to keep_making the_comparisons but it reminds me of Apple
ripping out_all_but essential components_-- easy to see through the lens of
costs in_the short term but in the_long term provides_freedom_to_take the
design further in_the next iteration. The 3 represents_a foundational design
that transitions elegantly to_autonomous control (imho) and will provide the
vantage_point Tesla needs to design their_first from-the-ground up autocar.

~~~
BoorishBears
The problem_for me_is it feels like the_market (and Tesla_to an_extent) has
jumped the_gun.

Tesla hasn't demonstrated enough self-driving progress_(and imo, no_one has
yet) to justify the car's_design_to me, nor_being_a_company with_a 54 billion
dollar_market_cap.

It's one_thing_if FSD was just on the_horizon,_but there are an incredible
number of very_hard problems to solve_before_we get there. Yet_Tesla is
designing a car that_requires FSD for justification of it's_interior and
charging_for FSD_as a feature.

------
sunstone
In the run up to model 3 production Musk_mentioned that "the production line
is the_product" because it was_needed to_be_highly automated to_make_a great
car_at a low price.

Clearly getting the production_line wrinkles_ironed out has been a much_bigger
challenge than Musk expected_but_that is typical of almost every_thing that
Musk as done: Envision a_way to make things an_order_of_magnitude better. Work
like a bugger_(while blowing through a dozen deadlines)_to make that_happen.
Eventually, come out the other side smelling_like_a genius -- because the
original vision_had_merit and was not just a_pipe_dream._The model 3 fits this
mold.

In_terms of finance and cash flow,_unlike previous near death experiences with
Tesla and SpaceX, now_Musk could quite_easily sell of a chunk_of_equity_in
SpaceX to finance