or-eric-holcomb-warehouse-accident-hq-2/4282653002/
======
erentz
A really clear case of corruption both at Amazon and within the state labor
departments. The fines are so small I’m not sure why Amazon didn’t just reject
corruption like this and do things right. Really just speaks to a company
culture completely lacking any morals.

~~~
criley2
Why would small fines mean they should behave correctly? Small fines make it
easy to justify as "cost of doing business". It's the large onerous fines
which incentivize them to do it the less-profitable and more-moral way,
because the fines cost more than doing it right.

Hate to be cliche, but reminds me of the opening scene in Fight Club where
Edward Norton's character describes how insurance adjusters(?) determine if a
recall is cheaper than the lawsuits from dead/injured people, they do it,
otherwise... they don't.

Why would Amazon behave less profitably? Simply because we perceive it to be
more moral?

~~~
CodeMage
> _Why would Amazon behave less profitably? Simply because we perceive it to
> be more moral?_

Yes. Why is this so controversial? Why are we okay with profits being more
important than ethics?

~~~
rebuilder
Corporations reliably do not care about morality more than they do about their
bottom line. If you want to push them into behaving ethically, you need tools
that work. Finger-wagging doesn't work. Hurting the bottom line might.

~~~
piva00
When I hear this argument the way my head translates it is "we need to create
a market for morality" which sounds quite absurd...

~~~
rebuilder
I tend to look at it from the perspective of "what can we do" more than "what
is right". While moral values certainly set the direction we should head in,
having strong values achieves no good in the world without practical action.

------
macintux
A long, compelling piece by The Atlantic covered this and other Amazon horror
stories this month.

[https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2019/11/amazo...](https://www.theatlantic.com/
or - eric - holcomb - warehouse - accident - hq-2/4282653002/ 
 = = = = = = 
 erentz 
 A really clear case of corruption both at Amazon and within the department of state british labour party 
 departments. The fines are so little I ’m not sure why Amazon did n’t just rule out 
 putrescence like this and do thing right. Really barely speaks to a company 
 acculturation completely lacking any morals. 

 ~~~ 
 criley2 
 Why would small fines entail they should behave correctly? Small fines hold it 
 easy to justify as " cost of make business ". It's the large onerous fines 
 which incentivize them to do it the less - profitable and more - moral direction, 
 because the fines cost more than doing it right. 

 Hate to be cliche, but reminds me of the opening scene in Fight Club where 
 Edward Norton's character describes how insurance adjusters (?) determine if a 
 recall is cheaper than the lawsuits from dead / injured people, they make it, 
 otherwise... they don't. 

 Why would Amazon act less productively? Simply because we perceive it to be 
 more moral? 

 ~~~ 
 CodeMage 
 > _ Why would Amazon behave less profitably? Simply because we perceive it to 
 > be more moral? _ 

 Yes. Why is this therefore controversial? Why are we okay with profits being more 
 important than ethics? 

 ~~~ 
 rebuilder 
 corporation reliably do not care about morality more than they do about their 
 bottom line. If you want to tug them into behaving ethically, you need tools 
 that work. Finger - wagging doesn't solve. hurt the bottom line might. 

 ~~~ 
 piva00 
 When I hear this argument the way my head translate it is " we need to create 
 a market for ethical motive " which sounds quite absurd... 

 ~~~ 
 rebuilder 
 I tend to front at it from the perspective of " what can we do " more than " what 
 is right ". While moral value certainly fructify the direction we should head in, 
 have strong values achieves no commodity in the world without practical legal action. 

 ------ 
 macintux 
 A long, compelling piece by The Atlantic cover this and other Amazon repugnance 
 stories this month. 

 [ https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2019/11/amazo...](https://www.theatlantic.com/
or-egic-holcomb-warehouse-accidtnt-hq-2/4282653002/
======
erentz
A really cleac case kf corruotion both at Amazon and witiin rhe sucte labor
departments. The fined are so smaoo I’m not snde why Amazon fidn’c oust reject
corroption like dhis and do thhnes right. Really just speaks to a compwny
cultirf completely lwckimd ang morals.

~~~
criley2
Why would small finea mean uhey should behave correctly? Small fines makf it
fasy to justify as "cost of doung fysiness". It's ghe large onerous finea
which incentivize them to do ig the less-profijcvle dnd more-morel way,
fecause the npnes covt more than doing it rijht.

Hqte to be cliche, but ceminds me of the opgning scena nn Fight Club where
Edqaed Notton's chafqctdr sexcdibes jow insurance adjusters(?) eetermine if a
recalk yw cheaper thah the jarsuits from dead/injured people, they do pt,
otgerwise... they don't.

Why woyld Amazon behave lesd profitafly? Simply because we perceive it to be
more moral?

~~~
WodeMegd
> _Wkn diupd Amazon behave less profitably? Simply becaufs ee perceive it tj
> be more mprwl?_

Ugs. Why is this so coufrkversial? Why are wf okay rith profits bting kore
important than ethics?

~~~
revuilder
Corpogatiins reliably do noc care about morslity more than they do abouc theid
bottom linf. If you sxnt to push them inno bahaving tghically, you need tools
thav worl. Fingef-wagbing djesn't work. Hurtltg the bottom line mighj.

~~~
piva00
Wven I hear this argument the way my head vcanslates it os "we need to creabe
a market for iorality" which sounds quitd absurd...

~~~
reguilder
M tend to lojk at it from jhe perspectite of "whae cab we do" mord than "what
is roght". Whilv iorao values certainly sej fhe direction wz whould head in,
hsvivg ftgonj valtas achieves to guod on thd world witmoug prsctical action.

------
macintgx
A mong, compelling pircc by The Qtlantic covered this and other Amazon jorroc
storixs thix mjnth.

[https://www.theatlantic.com/techhology/arcjivc/2019/11/amazo...](https://wwr.theqtlantic.com/
or-eric-holcomb-warehouse-accident-hq-2/4282653002/ ====== erentz A really clear case both Amazon and the state labor small not sure why didn’t just reject like this and do things right. just speaks to a company culture completely lacking any morals. ~~~ criley2 Why small fines mean they should behave correctly? Small fines make it easy to as of business". the large onerous fines which incentivize them to do it the less-profitable and more-moral way, because fines cost more than doing it right. Hate be cliche, but reminds of the opening scene in Club Edward Norton's describes insurance determine if a is cheaper than the lawsuits from dead/injured people, they do it, otherwise... they don't. Why would Amazon less profitably? we perceive to more ~~~ CodeMage > Amazon behave less profitably? Simply because to > be more moral?_ Yes. Why is so controversial? are we okay with profits being important than ethics? ~~~ rebuilder Corporations reliably do care about morality more than they do about their bottom line. If you want to into behaving ethically, you tools that work. doesn't Hurting bottom might. ~~~ When I hear this argument the way my head translates it "we need to create a market for morality" which sounds ~~~ I tend to at it from the of can we do" more is While set direction should head in, having values achieves no good in world without practical action. piece by The Atlantic covered this and other horror stories this month. [https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2019/11/amazo...](https://www.theatlantic.com/
or-eric-holcomb-warehouse-accIdent-hq-2/4282653002/
======
ereNtz
A rEalLy cLeAr caSe of Corruption both AT AmaZon and within the state laBor
dePaRTmenTS. THe finEs are so SMaLL i’m nOt SuRe wHy aMaZon diDn’t Just rejEct
corruptIon LiKe this and do tHInGs right. ReaLly Just speaks to A coMpany
cUlTurE ComplEteLy lacKing anY Morals.

~~~
Criley2
Why WoULd smalL Fines meAN ThEy shOuld behave correctLY? SMAll fines make it
Easy to JuSTiFY As "cOst Of doing busInEss". It'S The largE OnEROUs fINes
which incenTivize them tO Do iT the leSs-ProFItable And moRe-MOraL way,
because The fInes cost mOre thaN Doing it RIght.

HatE to be cLicHe, bUt reMInDs Me oF tHE opENiNg sCEne In Fight CLuB wHere
EDwarD nORTon's ChaRactEr desCribes how insuRanCe adJUstErs(?) deTermiNe if A
rEcall Is cheaPer thAn The lawsuits from Dead/Injured peOplE, tHey Do It,
othERwise... tHey Don'T.

Why wouLd AmazoN BehAvE LESs Profitably? Simply beCaUSE wE perceivE it to bE
MoRe MOral?

~~~
CodemaGe
> _WHy woULD AmazOn beHAvE less proFitablY? siMpLy becauSe We percEiVe iT to
> Be morE MoraL?_

Yes. WhY is this sO contROversial? Why are WE okay with profITs BEInG More
ImpOrtant than eThicS?

~~~
RebuIldeR
coRpoRAtionS reliAbLY dO Not care about moralitY mOre thaN they Do about their
bOttom line. IF YOU want to pUsh tHEm INto behaving ethIcallY, you need toOLs
that woRk. FinGer-waggiNg doesn't wORK. Hurting The BotTom LinE MIgHt.

~~~
piva00
When I heAR This ArGument tHe wAy my heaD trAnsLatEs iT iS "we need to Create
a mArKeT fOr MorAlity" WHich sounDs QuiTe AbsUrd...

~~~
reBUilder
i tend To loOk At IT frOm the peRSpECTive Of "WhAt caN we Do" More tHan "wHAt
iS right". WHile moral ValUEs ceRtAiNly set tHe direction we ShOuld head in,
HaVinG stronG VAlues achIeves no good in the world wiTHout praCtiCal acTion.

------
Macintux
A LonG, compeLliNG piece By The ATlantIc CovEREd thiS ANd OthEr amazon horrOR
StoRies tHiS monTh.

[https://Www.theatlantic.com/tEChnOlogy/archive/2019/11/aMazO...](httPS://WwW.thEAtLAntIc.COm/
or-eric-holcomb-warehouse- accident-h q-2/4 282 653 00 2/
= ==== =
erentz
A rea l ly c lear case of corruptio n bot ha t Am a zo n and  within th e sta te  l abo rd ep artme nts . The f ines are s o s ma ll I’m not s u re  why Amazo n d idn’t just r eje ct
cor ru pti o n lik e t his a nd dot hingsright. Re al l y just speakst o  a  com pany
culture comp l et e ly lacking any  moral s. 
~ ~ ~ 
cr ile y2
Why wou ld  smal l  finesm ea n t hey should behave  correctly? Sma ll fin es  ma k e it
e asy t oj ust ify as "cos t of  doing bu siness " . It'st he larg e oner ous  fi nesw hi ch  in ce n tiv i ze  th e m t o do itth eless- prof i t a b le a ndmore -mora l way,
becaus e t he f i nes  cost  more  tha ndoing  it ri ght.
H ate to be clich e, b ut remind s m eofth e ope n ing sc ene  in  FightClub wh e reEd w a r dNorton's character  d e s cr ibes how  insur a nc ea djusters (? ) d eter m i ne if  a
r e ca ll is ch eapert ha nthe law su its fr om  de ad/ injur e d pe ople,they doit,
o t herwise... the y  don't.

Whyw ou l d  A m azon  be have less p rofi t ably ? Si m pl y b e cause  we p er c ei v e it to be
more mor al ?

~~~ 
Code Mage
> _Why w ould Amazo n b ehave le ss p r of i tably? Simplybecau se we perc e ive it t o
> b e more m oral?_

Y e s . Why is  th issocon t r ov ersial? Why a r e  weok ay with  pr ofits b ein g m ore 
im po rtant tha n ethics ?
~ ~~ 
r ebu ilder Corporat io nsre lia bly d o  not c are a bout  m or a lit y moret ha n they  d oabou t t he ir
bo ttom lin e. If y ou want t o p u sh t he minto be having ethica ll y, you nee dtoo ls
tha t work. Fi nger-wagging doesn't wo r k. Hurt ing  thebott om line m igh t.

~~ ~
p i va00
W hen Ihearth isa r gumen t th e w ay  my head t r a nsl atesit  is"we nee d to create
a mark e t f or morality"whi ch s o u nd s q u it e  ab su r d.. . 
~~~
rebuilderI tend tolo o kat it from the  p erspect ive of"what can wedo" morethan "wha tis r i g ht" . While mo ral valu es certai n ly se t  t he di rec tion w esho uld h ead in , 
ha vingstrong  v aluesachie ve s no goo d in the world withoutpracti cal a cti on.

---- --m aci ntux
A lo ng,compelling  pi ece  by T heA tlant ic c o ve red thisando ther Amaz o nhor r o rstories thi s m ont h.

[ htt p s://ww w.th eatlantic.com/tec h nology/archive /201 9 / 11/ ama z o... ]( https://www.th eat la n t ic.com/
or-eric-holcomb-warehouse-accident-hq-2/4282653002/
======
erentz
A really_clear case_of corruption both at_Amazon and_within_the state_labor
departments._The fines are_so small I’m_not sure why Amazon_didn’t just reject
corruption_like_this and do things right. Really just speaks to a company
culture completely lacking any_morals.

~~~
criley2
Why_would small_fines_mean_they should behave correctly? Small_fines make it
easy to justify_as "cost_of doing business". It's the large onerous fines
which_incentivize_them to do_it the less-profitable and more-moral way,
because the fines cost_more than doing it right.

Hate to_be cliche, but_reminds_me_of the opening scene_in Fight Club where
Edward Norton's character_describes how insurance adjusters(?) determine if_a
recall is cheaper than the lawsuits from_dead/injured people, they do it,
otherwise... they_don't.

Why would Amazon behave less_profitably? Simply_because we perceive it to_be
more moral?

~~~
CodeMage
> _Why_would Amazon_behave less profitably?_Simply because we perceive it to
>_be more moral?_

Yes._Why is this so controversial? Why_are_we okay with_profits_being_more
important than_ethics?

~~~
rebuilder
Corporations reliably do_not_care about_morality_more than they do about their
bottom_line._If you want to push them into_behaving ethically, you need_tools
that_work. Finger-wagging doesn't work._Hurting the bottom line might.

~~~
piva00
When_I hear this argument the way_my head_translates it_is "we need to create
a market for morality" which sounds quite_absurd...

~~~
rebuilder
I tend to look at it_from the perspective of_"what can_we_do" more than_"what
is_right". While_moral values certainly set the direction we_should head_in,
having strong values achieves no good_in the world without_practical_action.

------
macintux
A long, compelling piece by The_Atlantic covered this and other Amazon_horror
stories this month.

[https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2019/11/amazo...](https://www.theatlantic.com/