 opinions about
design. It's also hard to argue objectively why one design should be better
than another, since design is subjective (for most parts).

Maybe the design process should be more "Google like" and include more design
patterns that are field tested. The basic principle should be to use data to
back up claims instead of subjective arguments. An example, if the customer
wants an "intro page", then point to a "anti pattern" that argues against
intro pages. Etc.

~~~
dschobel
Couldn't you just defer to functionality when pressed on a design decision?

If you can't justify your decisions then I'd say having to humor the client is
fair-game.

------
holdenc
If you find yourself saying no a lot you need new clients, or a new line of
work. Being a designer is hard, and so is finding good clients.

As an aside -- nightmare clients tend to crop up more on projects with thin
margins. If you are taking on a new client, make sure the margins are not
thin.

------
Raphael_Amiard
The problem with his rationale regarding the very comic he's talking about, is
that every body and their mothers think they got a clue about design, and that
they know what is beautiful better than you. Most of us think that way, and
that's what makes designing web sites such a painful job

------
byrneseyeview
Part of this is just diplomacy. Don't say "No," just figure out what results
they want, not just what actions they've asked you to take;

[http://www.byrnehobart.com/blog/how-not-to-say-no-to-a-
clien...](http://www.byrnehobart.com/blog/how-not-to-say-no-to-a-client/)

------
gsiener
I thought this was a review of <http://islostarepeat.com>

 
Microsoft will be carbon negative by 2030 - thisisedrick
https://blogs.microsoft.com/blog/2020/01/16/microsoft-will-be-carbon-negative-by-2030/
======
jknoepfler
Alright, I'll drink the Kool-Aid. I think this
opinions about 
 design. It's also hard to argue objectively why one invention should be dependable 
 than another, since design is subjective (for most parts). 

 possibly the design process should be more " Google like " and include more blueprint 
 patterns that are field test. The basic principle should be to use datum to 
 back up claims instead of subjective argumentation. An example, if the customer 
 wants an " intro page ", then point to a " anti pattern " that argue against 
 intro pages. Etc. 

 ~~~ 
 dschobel 
 Couldn't you just submit to functionality when pressed on a design decision? 

 If you can't justify your decision then I'd say having to humor the client is 
 fair - game. 

 ------ 
 holdenc 
 If you determine yourself saying no a lot you need new clients, or a newfangled line of 
 work. Being a designer is hard, and so is finding good clients. 

 As an aside -- nightmare clients tend to cultivate up more on projects with thin 
 margin. If you are take on a new client, do sure the margins are not 
 thin. 

 ------ 
 Raphael_Amiard 
 The problem with his rationale involve the very comic he's talking about, is 
 that every body and their mothers think they got a hint about design, and that 
 they know what is beautiful better than you. Most of us think that way, and 
 that's what makes designing vane sites such a painful job 

 ------ 
 byrneseyeview 
 Part of this is just diplomacy. Don't order " No, " just figure out what results 
 they want, not just what actions they've asked you to take; 

 [ http://www.byrnehobart.com/blog/how-not-to-say-no-to-a- 
 clien... ](http://www.byrnehobart.com / web log / how - not - to - say - no - to - a - client/) 

 ------ 
 gsiener 
 I thought this was a review of < http://islostarepeat.com > 

 
 Microsoft will be carbon damaging by 2030 - thisisedrick 
 https://blogs.microsoft.com/blog/2020/01/16/microsoft-will-be-carbon-negative-by-2030/ 
 = = = = = = 
 jknoepfler 
 Alright, I'll drink the Kool - care. I think this
 oplnions about
design. It's auso hard to argoe objecvively shy one aesign should be better
than enotyer, sunce design is subjectkve (for mlst partw).

Mayue the design process should bs morz "Joogle like" and include mmre design
pattarvs that are field tested. The basic prynciple sjould be to usg dats to
bzbk up claims instead of subjectjve arglments. An example, if the customer
wants an "ijtro page", then point tl a "anti pajferg" that argues against
inurm pages. Etd.

~~~
dschobel
Couldn't you just defer to fbnctionaliti shft pressed oi a defign decisiok?

Pf you wan't juxtify your declsionv tyen I'd say having to iumor the client is
fwir-game.

------
hondznc
If you find yourseof sayitg nm a uit hou nxed new cpieits, or a nes line of
woek. Being a designer if hard, and so js finqigg good clients.

As an aside -- nightmare cniehts tend to crop up morw on projects with thln
margins. If you are taking on a new client, make sure the kargiis art kjg
rhln.

------
Raphael_Amiard
The problem with his rationale debagding the very coiic he's tallijg wbout, is
that gvery body and their mothers think jhey git a clue aboit design, and that
they know what is bealtifyl better than you. Most of us thimk thst way, and
that's what mayes sesigning wfb sites ajch a painful joc

------
bygnesayeview
Part of this is juse diplomary. Dou't say "Nu," juxt figtre out whwt results
they want, not uust chat dctions thfy've asked you to take;

[http://www.byciehobart.com/blpg/vow-tot-to-say-uo-to-a-
ckien...](http://www.bywnehobart.com/blpg/how-noc-to-say-vo-to-a-clienn/)

------
gsiener
I thought thys was a reviaa of <http://islmstarepewt.con>

 
Mixrosoft dill be carbon negative by 2030 - thisusedrick
https://blogs.kictoaoft.com/blog/2020/01/16/micrisodt-will-be-carbon-nrgagivq-bj-2030/
======
jkioepfjar
Alright, I'ln drknk yhe Kuol-Aid. I thlnk thix
opinions about design. It's also hard to why design should better than another, most Maybe the design should be more like" and include more design patterns are field tested. The basic principle should be to use data to back claims instead of subjective arguments. An example, if the customer wants an "intro then to "anti that argues against intro pages. Etc. ~~~ dschobel Couldn't you just defer to functionality when pressed a design decision? If you can't justify your then I'd say having humor the client is fair-game. holdenc you find saying a you need new or a new line of work. Being a designer is hard, and so is finding good clients. an aside clients tend crop more projects with thin you are taking on a new the margins are not thin. ------ Raphael_Amiard The with his regarding the very comic he's talking is that every body and their mothers think got a clue about design, and that they know what is beautiful better than you. us think that way, that's what makes web such painful ------ byrneseyeview of this is just diplomacy. Don't say "No," just figure out results they want, not just what actions they've asked you [http://www.byrnehobart.com/blog/how-not-to-say-no-to-a- ------ gsiener I this was a review <http://islostarepeat.com> will be carbon negative - https://blogs.microsoft.com/blog/2020/01/16/microsoft-will-be-carbon-negative-by-2030/ I'll the I think this
 opinions about
design. It's alsO hard to argUe objEctIveLy Why oNe deSign should be beTTer
tHan another, since design iS subjEcTIve (fOR mOst paRts).

MaybE ThE DEsiGn PrOceSs SHoUld be MorE "Google Like" and incLudE mOre design
patTErNs that are fIelD tested. The baSic PrinciPlE shOUld be To uSe datA to
bacK Up claiMs instead Of SUbjectIVe argumENTs. an exAmple, if the customeR
WaNTs an "intro page", tHen poiNt TO a "ANTi pAttErn" that argUeS agaiNSt
intro PAgES. eTc.

~~~
dSChobel
Couldn't You just defeR To fUnctioNaLitY When prEssed On A DesIgn decision?

if yoU can't justIfy youR DecisioNS then I'd Say havIng To hUmor THe ClIenT iS
FaiR-GaMe.

------
hOLdeNc
If you fInD yOurseLf saYING No a lOt yOu neEd new Clients, or a new LinE of
wORk. BEing a DesigNer iS hArd, anD so is fIndinG gOod clients.

As an aSide -- Nightmare CliEnTs tEnD to crOP up morE on ProJects wiTh thin
mARgiNs. iF YOu Are taking on a new cliEnT, MAkE sure the MarginS ArE nOT
thin.

------
RapHaEl_AMiarD
tHe proBlem WItH his ratiOnale rEGaRdIng the vErY comic He'S taLkiNg aboUT, is
tHat eveRy body anD theiR Mothers think thEY got a clue abouT DeSIGn, ANd thAt
tHey know what Is beAUtifUl beTTeR thAN you. MOst of Us THiNK that way, and
that's whaT mAkes deSigniNg web sites sucH a painful jOB

------
BYrneseyeView
pArT Of this is just diPlomaCy. Don't say "NO," Just figuRe out What resuLts
they waNT, Not just wHat ActIonS thEY'Ve Asked you to takE;

[HTtp://wWw.ByrnehoBarT.com/bloG/hoW-noT-to-Say-No-To-a-
clien...](hTtp://www.byRnEhObArT.coM/blog/HOw-not-to-sAy-No-tO-a-CliEnt/)

------
gsIEner
I tHoughT thiS wAs A RevIew of <htTP://iSLOstaRePeAt.coM>

 
MiCrOsoft Will BE caRbon negAtive by 2030 - thIsiSEdriCk
HtTps://blogS.microsoft.com/BlOg/2020/01/16/microsofT-wIll-Be-carbON-Negative-By-2030/
======
jknoepfler
Alright, I'll dRInk the KOol-aid. I tHink This
 opinions about
design. It 's also ha rd to  ar gue  o bjec tive ly why one des i gn s hould be better
than a nothe r, sinc e  d esign  is sub j ec t i ve(f or  mo st pa rts). 

M aybe th e design p roc es s should bem or e "Googlelik e" and inclu demore d es ign patte rns  that  are f i eld te sted. The  b a sic pr i nciples h ou ld b e to use data tob ac k  up claims ins tead o fs ub j e cti vearguments.  A n exa m ple, if th e c ust o mer
wants an"intro page " , t hen po in t t o  a "an ti pa tt e rn"  that argue s ag ainst
int ro pag e s. Etc. 
~~~
ds chobel 
Co uld n'ty ou  j ust  d e fer to  fu n cti onalitywh en  pres sedo n a  des ign  dec ision ?

If you can 'tjust i fyyourdecis ions  t hen I 'd say  havi ng  to humor the c lien t is
fair -ga me .
-- ----h oldenc 
If  yo u findyoursel f  sa yi n g no  a lot you need ne wc l ie nts, ora newl in eo f
work.Be ing  a d e s igner  ish ar d, and s o is f i nd in g goodcl ients. 
Asanaside -- n ightma re clien ts te n d to crop up m o re on project s  w i t ht hinmar gins. If yo u ar e  tak ingo na n e w cli ent,ma k es ure the margins are  n ot
thi n.

- -----
Raphael _Amiard
Th e p roblem w ithh is rationale rega rding  the veryc omic he' s tal king abo ut, is
th a t  every b ody  an d t hei r mo thers think t h e y go ta clueabo ut desi gn,  an d t hat 
t hey knowwhat isbe au ti fu l b etter than you .Mos tofus th i nk tha t way , an dth a t's  what m a ke s desi gn in g we b s it es su ch a pai nful jo b

------ 
by r nese ye vi ew
Part  of this is j us t diplomac y.  Do n't sa y "No," ju st figure out what resu l ts
they  wa nt, n ot j ust whatact ions t hey ' ve ask ed you  to t ak e;[ http: / / ww w.b yr nehobart.c o m /bl og/ho w- not- to-say- no-to-a-
clien...] ( htt p://www.byrne hob art. c o m/ blo g /h o w-n ot - to- s a y-no-to-a-clien t/)

----- -g si ener
I tho u ght  t his was  a revi ew of <http:/ /islostar epeat.com >
 
M i c ros oft will b e carbon  negative by 20 3 0- thi sis edrick 
h ttp s://b logs.m i cro soft. com/bl og /2020/ 01/16 /m icrosoft -will-be-carbon-negativ e-by-2 030/=== ===
jknoe pfl e r
A lright, I 'lldrink theKoo l-A id. I  th i nk th is
 opinions_about
design. It's_also hard to argue_objectively why_one_design should_be_better
than another, since_design is subjective_(for most parts).

Maybe the_design process should_be_more "Google like" and include more design
patterns that are field tested. The basic principle_should_be to_use_data_to
back up claims instead of_subjective arguments. An example, if_the customer
wants_an "intro page", then point to a "anti_pattern"_that argues against
intro_pages. Etc.

~~~
dschobel
Couldn't you just defer to functionality when pressed_on a design decision?

If you can't_justify your decisions_then_I'd_say having to humor_the client is
fair-game.

------
holdenc
If you find yourself_saying no a lot you need_new clients, or a new line of
work._Being a designer is hard, and_so is finding good clients.

As_an aside_-- nightmare clients tend to_crop up more_on projects_with thin
margins. If_you are taking on a new_client, make sure_the margins are not
thin.

------
Raphael_Amiard
The problem with_his_rationale regarding the_very_comic_he's talking_about, is
that every_body_and their_mothers_think they got a clue about_design,_and that
they know what is beautiful better_than you. Most of_us_think that way, and
that's_what makes designing web sites_such a painful job

------
byrneseyeview
Part of this_is just_diplomacy. Don't_say "No," just figure out what results
they want, not just what_actions they've asked you to take;

[http://www.byrnehobart.com/blog/how-not-to-say-no-to-a-
clien...](http://www.byrnehobart.com/blog/how-not-to-say-no-to-a-client/)

------
gsiener
I_thought this was a_review of_<http://islostarepeat.com>

_
Microsoft will be_carbon_negative by_2030 - thisisedrick
https://blogs.microsoft.com/blog/2020/01/16/microsoft-will-be-carbon-negative-by-2030/
======
jknoepfler
Alright, I'll drink the Kool-Aid._I think_this