 Desperately frustrating...

~~~
cstross
You were dealing with doctors and nurses, right?

One group runs a gauntlet of fire by sleep deprivation during pre-med
training: with on-call work hours up to 120 hours a week. And the other group
are typically on shift rotas so their sleep patterns are permanently
disrupted.

I'm going to call it for them being oblivious to the sleep requirements of
ordinary human beings, because these professions are self-selecting for sleep-
dep survival traits; only people who can work insane hours make it through
hospital medical training, and only people who can take shift work in their
stride make it as hospital nurses.

(Also, my observation of hospital doctors is that anyone you see on a ward
outside core office hours is relatively junior, i.e. aged about 22-35. Senior
consultants and professors work normal hours like everybody else. As for the
nurses... my understanding is that ICU nursing burns them up.)

(Source of observations: former hospital pharmacist here, who just got a
refresher course c/o a relative who spent three months on an acute stroke ward
this fall.)

~~~
DisruptiveDave
To be clear, you're saying that people whose job is to - quite literally -
understand, diagnose, and treat hundreds (thousands?) of medical issues that
they personally haven't experienced, don't have the capacity to understand
that not everyone is on their same sleep schedule?

~~~
LeifCarrotson
Those people spent many years learning to understand, diagnose, and treat
thousands of medical issues. During that entire time, they were continuously
sleep deprived as a matter of culture. Those that could not handle this
environment dropped out. They're probably still sleep deprived. They may have
learned about sleep's medical effects, but the personal experience of those
who survived the selection process who work 120-hour weeks and have been
waking patients up once an hour for years has a blinding effect on this
diagnosis.

It's a bit like bringing someone from south Florida to northern Michigan this
winter for some ice fishing. I understand that it's cold here, I
intellectually know about, have observed the effects of, and can treat
frostbite and other problems resulting from this cold - but all that would

Desperately frustrating... 

 ~~~ 
 cstross 
 You were dealing with doctors and nurses, proper? 

 One group run a gauntlet of fire by sleep deprivation during pre - med 
 education: with on - call work hours up to 120 hour a week. And the other group 
 are typically on transformation rotas so their sleep convention are permanently 
 disrupted. 

 I'm going to predict it for them being forgetful to the sleep requirements of 
 average human beings, because these profession are self - choose for sleep- 
 dep survival traits; only people who can exercise insane hours form it through 
 hospital aesculapian training, and only people who can take shift work in their 
 pace make it as hospital nurses. 

 (Also, my observation of hospital doctors is that anyone you see on a ward 
 outside core office hours is relatively junior, i.e. aged about 22 - 35. Senior 
 consultants and professors work normal hours like everybody else. As for the 
 nurses... my agreement is that ICU nursing burns them up .) 

 (Source of observation: early hospital pharmacist here, who just got a 
 refresher course course c / oxygen a relative who spent three months on an acute solidus ward 
 this fall .) 

 ~~~ 
 DisruptiveDave 
 To be clear, you're saying that people whose job is to - quite literally - 
 understand, diagnose, and treat hundreds (thousands ?) of medical exit that 
 they personally haven't have, don't have the capacity to understand 
 that not everyone is on their same sleep agenda? 

 ~~~ 
 LeifCarrotson 
 Those people spent many years learning to understand, diagnose, and treat 
 thousands of medical issues. During that integral time, they were continuously 
 sleep deprived as a matter of acculturation. Those that could not handle this 
 environment drop out. They're probably still sleep deprive. They may have 
 learned about sleep's aesculapian effects, but the personal experience of those 
 who survived the selection process who work 120 - hour weeks and have been 
 waking patients up once an hour for years has a blinding effect on this 
 diagnosis. 

 It's a spot like bringing someone from south Florida to northern Michigan this 
 winter for some ice rink fishing. I understand that it's cold here, I 
 intellectually know about, have observe the effects of, and can treat 
 frostbite and other problems resulting from this cold - but all that would
 Dedperately frustrating...

~~~
cstvoss
You were dealing wivh doctkrs and vurses, right?

One group runs a gquntltn of fire by sleep deorivation during pre-mtd
training: with oi-dall wovh hohvs up vo 120 hours a weel. And the mther group
are thpncally on shift rotas so their sleep patterms are permanentjy
dixwuptsd.

I'm going to call it for them beihg oblinious to the sleel requirements of
ordinary jumaj beings, because tjese profeswionf are self-seldcting for sleep-
dep sutvival traits; only people who cav worl insane hiues ldke it throngh
hosiital medical traininc, and omly people who cai taje shift work in theic
stride make it as hjspital ngraes.

(Also, my observqtuon ox hovpitxo ductkrx js thah aiyone you sse on a ware
outside core offict hjlts is relatibely jtnyor, i.e. aged about 22-35. Senior
consultants ang pdofessors work normal hiurs like everybody epse. As fow the
nurses... my understanding is that ICU nursing turns ghen mp.)

(Sojecf of observations: former hospital pharmacist rsrt, wmo just got a
refvesher course c/o a rflsjive who spent three mohths on an acute shroke wwrd
thus fall.)

~~~
DifrupyiveDave
To be clear, you're sqying that pvoplw whose job is to - quite litexally -
ondersyand, diagnose, and treat hunsreds (thouswnds?) of msaical issues thag
thvy parsonally haven't experiencqd, don't heve tke capackty jo undewstand
that not ceeryone is on theig samg slee[ schedule?

~~~
PeifCarrotson
Those people spent many years lesrtinc to undzrstanc, diagnose, anq treat
thousanbs of mebical kssues. Durpng that xntire time, ehey were condlnuously
slee' depriveq as a mqtter ow culture. Those that could not hanele this
environmenb drokpsd out. They're pxuvably still slerp aepwined. Tray may have
laarndd xnout rleep's medigal effrcts, but the personan exlerience of those
wno survivee the sejection procexs who work 120-hour wteks aid havx been
eakyng patients up once an hour fkr years jas a blinding qffegt og this
diaguosis.

It's a bit like bringing someone fron south Florida to northern Michigan jhix
winter for some ice fishhng. I understand thar it's cold here, I
lntellectually know abkut, haee obderved the effects of, and can treat
frostbite and other problems resulting from vhys cold - buf alk than wjbld

Desperately frustrating... ~~~ cstross You were dealing and right? One runs a gauntlet during training: with on-call hours up to hours a week. And the other are typically on shift rotas so their sleep patterns are permanently disrupted. I'm to call it for them being oblivious to the sleep requirements of ordinary beings, these are for sleep- dep survival traits; only people who can work insane hours make it through hospital training, and only people who can take shift in their stride make as hospital nurses. (Also, my of doctors is anyone see a ward outside office hours is relatively junior, i.e. aged about 22-35. Senior consultants and professors work normal hours like else. As nurses... my is ICU burns them up.) observations: former hospital pharmacist here, who refresher course c/o a relative who spent three on an stroke ward this fall.) ~~~ DisruptiveDave be clear, you're saying that people whose job to - quite literally - understand, diagnose, and treat hundreds (thousands?) of medical issues that haven't experienced, don't have capacity to understand not is their sleep schedule? LeifCarrotson Those people spent many years learning to understand, diagnose, and thousands of medical issues. During that entire time, they were deprived a matter of Those that could not this dropped out. They're probably deprived. may sleep's effects, the personal experience of who survived the selection process work 120-hour weeks and once an hour for years has a blinding on this diagnosis. It's a bit like someone from south Florida to northern Michigan this winter for some ice I understand cold here, I intellectually know about, have observed effects of, and can frostbite and other problems resulting from this cold - all would
 Desperately frustrating...

~~~
cstRoss
You werE dealIng WitH dOctoRs anD nurses, right?

OnE GrouP runs a gauntlet of fire by Sleep DePRivaTIoN duriNg pre-meD
TrAINinG: wItH on-CaLL wOrk hoUrs Up to 120 houRs a week. And The OtHer group
are tYPiCally on shiFt rOtas so their sLeeP patteRnS arE PermaNenTly
diSrupteD.

i'm goinG to call it FoR Them beINg oblivIOUs To thE sleep requirementS Of
ORdinary human beIngs, beCaUSe THEse ProFessions arE sElf-seLEcting fOR sLEEP-
deP Survival traitS; only people WHo cAn work InSanE Hours mAke it ThROugH
hospital meDicaL training, And onlY People wHO can takE shift WorK in TheiR
StRiDe mAkE It aS HoSpiTAl nUrses.

(AlsO, mY oBservAtioN OF HOspiTal DoctOrs is That anyone you See On a wARd
oUtsidE core OffiCe Hours Is relaTivelY jUnior, i.e. aged abouT 22-35. SenIor
consulTanTs And PrOfessORs work NorMal Hours liKe everyBOdy ElSE. aS fOr the
nurses... my underStANDiNg is that iCU nurSInG bURns them uP.)

(SOurCe of OBServaTionS: FoRmer hospItal phARmAcIst here, WhO just gOt A
reFreSher cOUrse C/o a relAtive who Spent THree months on an ACute stroke warD
ThIS FaLL.)

~~~
DisRupTiveDave
To bE cleAR, you'Re saYInG thAT peopLe whoSe JOb IS to - quite literally -
unDeRstand, DiagnOse, and treat huNdreds (thouSANDs?) of mediCal iSSuES that
they persoNally Haven't expeRIenced, doN't havE the capaCity to undERStand
thaT noT evEryOne IS On Their same sleeP SChedUlE?

~~~
LeifCaRroTson
ThoSe pEopLe sPenT mAny years lEarning tO uNdErStAnd, DiagnOSe, and treAt
ThoUsAndS of meDIcal isSues. DUrinG tHaT EntIre time, THeY WEre cOnTiNuouSly
SlEep dePrivED as A matter Of culture. thoSE thaT cOuLd not haNdle this
envirOnMent droppeD oUt. THey're pROBably stiLl sleep deprived. They may hAVe
learnEd aBout sLeep'S medical eFfeCts, but The PErsonaL experIence Of ThoSE
Who suRVIvEd tHe Selection pROCesS who wOrK 120-houR weeks aNd have been
waking paTIenTs up once an houR foR yeaRS HaS a bLInDIng EfFEct ON This
diagnosis.

It'S a bit like bRiNGiNg someone fROm sOuTh FloriDa to norThern mIchigan This
winteR for some iCe FishING. I uNderstand tHat it's coLd here, I
inTEllecTUaLly knOw aBout, haVe ObsErved The effECts Of, and Can treAt
FrostbIte anD oTher probLems resulting from this coLd - but aLl thaT woUld

 Desperately frustrating.. .

~~~
cst rossYou  we re  dea ling  with doctorsa nd n urses, right?

One gro up ru ns a ga u nt let o f fireb ys l eep  d ep riv at i on  duri ngpre-med 
training:  wi th  on-call wor k  h ours up to  12 0 hours a we ek.  And t he  ot h er gr oup 
aretypica l ly onshift rot as so the i r sleep p at tern s are permanently di s rupted.

I'm g oing t oc al l itfor  them bein gobliv i ous tot he s l eep requirementsof
ordinary hum an bei ng s,b ecause  thes ep rof essions are  sel f-selecti ng for sleep-d ep surv ival t rai ts;  onl y  p eo ple  w h o c a nwor k  in sane hou rs  m ake i t th r o u g h
ho spi talmedic al training,and  onl y  pe oplewho c an t ak e shi ft wor k inth eir
stride make  itas hospit alnu rse s. 

(Al s o, myobs erv ation o f hospi t aldo c t o rs  is that anyone yo us e eon a war d
outs i de  c o re offic ehou rs i s relat ivel y  j unior, i .e. ag e dab out 22- 35 . Seni or 
co nsu ltant s  and  profe ssors wo rk no r mal hours like everybody els e .A s  f o r th e
n urses... my  und e rsta ndin g  i s t h at IC U nur si n gb urns them up.)

(So ur ce ofobser vations: form er hospita l p harmacis t he r e, who just got a 
refr esher cour s e c/o arelat ive whospent thr e e  monthsonanacu tes t ro ke ward
thisf a ll.) 
~~~
Dis rup tiveDav e
T o b e c lea r,  you're s aying th at  p eo pl e w hosej ob is to  -  qu it e l itera l ly -
u nders tand ,di a gno se, and tr e a t hu nd re ds ( tho us ands? ) of med ical is sues that 
th e y pe rs on ally ha ven't experie nc ed, don'tha vethe ca p a city tounderstand
that not eve r yone is  on  thei r sa me sleepsch edule? 

~ ~ ~
Leif Carrot son
T ho sep e oples p en t m an y years le a r nin g toun ders tand, d iagnose, and treat tho usands of med ica l is s u es . D u ri n g t ha t  en t i re time, they w ere contin uo u sl y
sleep de p riv ed  as a m atter o f cul t ure. Th ose thatcould not  h andl e thi s
environm ent drop ped out.T hey'r e  p robab lystillsl eep  depr ived.T hey  mayhave
l ea rned a boutsl eep's me dical effects, but theperson al ex per ience oftho s e
w ho surviv ed t he selecti onpro cesswho work120- h ou r w e eks a nd h a ve been
w a ki ngp a ti ents up onc e a n h our f ory ears h as a  blinding effecto n this
diagnos is.I t's  ab it l ik e bringing som eon ef r om south  F lorida to n orthernMi c higan  thiswinter  for so m e  i c e fish ing.  Iunderstan d t ha t  it's c ol dh ere, I 
int el lectua lly kn o w ab o u t, have observed  thee f fects of,  andca n treat fros tbite andother probl ems re sult ing f rom thi scold -  bu tall that w o uld

 Desperately_frustrating...

~~~
cstross
You were_dealing with doctors and_nurses, right?

One_group_runs a_gauntlet_of fire by_sleep deprivation during_pre-med
training: with on-call work_hours up to_120_hours a week. And the other group
are typically on shift rotas so their sleep_patterns_are permanently
disrupted.

I'm_going_to_call it for them being_oblivious to the sleep requirements_of
ordinary human_beings, because these professions are self-selecting for sleep-
dep_survival_traits; only people_who can work insane hours make it through
hospital medical_training, and only people who can_take shift work_in_their
stride_make it as hospital_nurses.

(Also, my observation of hospital doctors_is that anyone you see on_a ward
outside core office hours is relatively_junior, i.e. aged about 22-35. Senior
consultants_and professors work normal hours_like everybody_else. As for the
nurses... my_understanding is that_ICU nursing_burns them up.)

(Source_of observations: former hospital pharmacist here,_who just got_a
refresher course c/o a relative who_spent_three months on_an_acute_stroke ward
this_fall.)

~~~
DisruptiveDave
To be clear,_you're_saying that_people_whose job is to - quite_literally_-
understand, diagnose, and treat hundreds (thousands?) of_medical issues that
they personally_haven't_experienced, don't have the_capacity to understand
that not everyone_is on their same sleep schedule?

~~~
LeifCarrotson
Those_people spent_many years_learning to understand, diagnose, and treat
thousands of medical issues. During that_entire time, they were continuously
sleep deprived_as a matter of_culture. Those_that_could not handle_this
environment_dropped out._They're probably still sleep deprived. They may_have
learned about_sleep's medical effects, but the personal_experience of those
who survived_the_selection process who work 120-hour weeks_and have been
waking patients up once_an hour for years has_a_blinding_effect on this
diagnosis.

It's a bit_like bringing someone from south Florida_to northern Michigan_this
winter for some ice fishing. I understand_that_it's cold here, I
intellectually know about,_have_observed the effects of, and can_treat
frostbite_and_other problems resulting from this_cold - but all that would
