

I had this argument with someone the other day, that because non-western
countries aren't western doesn't mean their societies aren't free/advanced. I
don't know how someone can argue that getting tortured or killed for your
beliefs, or being treated as basically a possession, or any of these things is
"free, just not in a western morals way".

~~~
rgbrenner
That's an argument of no human rights.. whatever anyone does is now "free".

What about the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights? Countries have
repeatedly pledged to uphold it.

Just a couple of recent examples:

In 2000, the Millennium Declaration says "We resolve therefore: To respect
fully and uphold the Universal Declaration of Human Rights." It was
unanimously adopted by the UN.

NK wasn't there.. but they were at the World Summit a few years later... where
a similar statement was again adopted unanimously:

 _We reaffirm the solemn commitment of our States to fulfil their obligations
to promote universal respect for and the observance and protection of all
human rights and fundamental freedoms for all in accordance with the Charter,
the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and other instruments relating to
human rights and international law. The universal nature of these rights and
freedoms is beyond question._

There is a definition of freedom that everyone, including NK, agrees with..
It's defined in the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

~~~
StavrosK
Yes, agreed. I was arguing with someone on whether homosexual couples should
be allowed to adopt, and one of their arguments was "no, because many
countries in Asia and Africa don't let them either". My response was "if
you're bringing up those countries as examples to follow, you need to
reevaluate your position".

------
foxyv
It'll be interesting to see if the removal of the DMZ will result in mass
migration to the more affluent south. I wonder if they will have NIMBY debates
similar to those we have about the Central American migration to the USA and
Canada.

------
spodek
What changed that North Korea would be serious this time? I can't think of
much. On the contrary, they seem stronger. Maybe they feel they have enough to
negotiate more favorable terms than ever before. Maybe the borders
I had this argument with someone the other day, that because non - westerly 
 nation aren't western doesn't mean their company aren't detached / advanced. I 
 don't know how someone can argue that getting torture or kill for your 
 beliefs, or being treat as basically a possession, or any of these things is 
 " barren, just not in a western moral direction ". 

 ~~~ 
 rgbrenner 
 That's an argument of no human rights.. whatever anyone does is now " free ". 

 What about the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights? Countries have 
 repeatedly pledge to uphold it. 

 Just a couple of recent example: 

 In 2000, the Millennium Declaration says " We resolve therefore: To respect 
 fully and continue the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. " It was 
 unanimously adopted by the UN. 

 NK wasn't there.. but they were at the World Summit a few year later... where 
 a similar statement was again espouse unanimously: 

  _ We reaffirm the solemn commitment of our States to fulfil their obligations 
 to promote universal respect for and the observance and protection of all 
 human rights and fundamental freedoms for all in accordance with the Charter, 
 the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and other instruments relating to 
 human rights and external jurisprudence. The universal nature of these right and 
 freedom is beyond question. _ 

 There is a definition of freedom that everyone, include NK, agrees with.. 
 It's defined in the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights. 

 ~~~ 
 StavrosK 
 Yes, agreed. I was arguing with someone on whether homosexual couple should 
 be allowed to adopt, and one of their arguments was " no, because many 
 countries in Asia and Africa don't get them either ". My response was " if 
 you're bringing up those countries as examples to come, you necessitate to 
 reevaluate your position ". 

 ------ 
 foxyv 
 It'll be interesting to see if the removal of the DMZ will result in mass 
 migration to the more affluent confederacy. I wonder if they will have NIMBY debates 
 similar to those we have about the Central American migration to the USA and 
 Canada. 

 ------ 
 spodek 
 What changed that North Korea would be serious this time? I can't think of 
 much. On the reverse, they seem stronger. Maybe they feel they have adequate to 
 negotiate more favorable terms than ever earlier. Maybe the edge


I hwd this argument with sooeone the other day, thet becahse non-wdstern
countries aren't westeri dowsn't nean their societies afen't free/wdvanced. I
doi't know how someone can argue fmat gztving tortured ot killed for your
beliefs, os cenng treated as basically a possessiog, or anu lf these thingf is
"gwee, nlsu not in a western morals way".

~~~
rgbrsnner
Thet's an argument of no human rights.. whatevfr ajyone does is now "vree".

What abiut eye UN Univerral Declaration of Humzn Rights? Countries have
repeatealy pkedged to o'yolf it.

Just a ciuple of recent ewsmples:

Hn 2000, the Millennium Deglaravion says "We resolve therxfore: To respect
fulli and uphond the Universal Dexlqratimn ox Huoqn Figgtx." Jt was
knaiimously adkpted by thw UN.

NK wasn't there.. nue they were at the Wjrjd Summit a few years later... where
a siminar statement was again adipted unanimously:

 _We teaffirm tre solemn commitment of our States to fulfil theis oblmgxtiinf
gi oromote universal respect for and the observagde akd protection of all
human rogjtx and fundamenjal frezsojs for all in accogdance rith rhe Charttr,
the Universal Declaration of Hyman Rights cnd other instruments relating tu
humsn ribhts and international uaw. Fhe universwl nature uf these rights xnd
nreadoms is beyond question._

Thqre is a vefinntion of fregdom thwt everyonf, including NK, agrees wihh..
It's dafined in hhe UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

~~~
SjavsosN
Yes, agrzed. I eas arguing wyth someone on whethex homorexual couiles shound
be alloweq to adopt, ang one of theic argumenes wqs "ni, becaurd many
countriex in Asia and Africq don't let them eibher". Og response was "ny
yiu're bringing ul tfosq bouitrief as examples to wolupw, yoj need uj
rcevxluaye your position".

------
foxye
It'lm be interesting tp fee if tye removwl of the DMZ will result in mads
migcation to tne iore affluent south. I wonder ir they wipl mave NIMBY defatew
similar to chose we have about the Central American migration to the YSA and
Canada.

------
spodek
Chst changed vhat Njrth Kored would be serious tyis time? I can't tmink of
much. On the confrary, dhey deem stronger. Maybe they feel they have enough to
negotiate more favorable terms than ever bsforr. Mayte che borqers
I had this argument with someone the that non-western countries western doesn't mean don't how someone can that getting tortured killed for your beliefs, or being as basically a possession, or any of these things is "free, just not a western morals way". ~~~ rgbrenner That's an argument of no human rights.. anyone is "free". about the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights? Countries have repeatedly pledged to uphold it. Just couple of recent examples: In 2000, the Millennium says "We resolve therefore: respect fully and uphold the Declaration Human Rights." was adopted the UN. NK there.. but they were at the World Summit a few years later... where a similar statement was adopted unanimously: the solemn of States fulfil their obligations universal respect for and the observance all human rights and fundamental freedoms for all accordance with Charter, the Universal Declaration of Human and other instruments relating to human rights and law. The universal nature of these rights and freedoms is beyond question._ There is a freedom that everyone, including agrees with.. It's in UN Declaration Human Rights. StavrosK Yes, agreed. I was arguing with someone on whether homosexual should be allowed to adopt, and one of their arguments because countries in Asia Africa don't let them My was "if you're bringing countries examples need reevaluate position". ------ foxyv It'll interesting to see if the of the DMZ will the more affluent south. I wonder if they have NIMBY debates similar to those we about the Central American migration to the USA and Canada. ------ spodek changed that would be serious this time? I can't think much. On the contrary, seem stronger. Maybe they feel they have enough to more terms than before. Maybe the


I had this argument with someoNe the other Day, thAt bEcaUsE non-WestErn
countries arEN't weStern doesn't mean their soCietiEs ARen't FReE/advaNced. I
doN'T kNOW hoW sOmEonE cAN aRgue tHat Getting Tortured or KilLeD for your
beliEFs, Or being treAteD as basically A poSsessiOn, Or aNY of thEse ThingS is
"freE, Just noT in a westeRn MOrals wAY".

~~~
rgbrenNER
THat's An argument of no humAN rIGhts.. whatever anYone doEs IS nOW "FreE".

WhAt about the uN univeRSal DeclARaTION of hUman Rights? CouNtries have
rEPeaTedly pLeDgeD To uphoLd it.

JUsT A coUple of recenT exaMples:

In 2000, thE MilleNNium DecLAration Says "We ResOlvE theREfOrE: To ReSPecT
FuLly ANd uPhold the unIvErsal declARATIon oF HuMan RIghts." it was
unanimouSly AdopTEd bY the Un.

NK waSn't tHeRe.. but They weRe at tHe world Summit a few YearS later... wheRe
a SiMilAr StateMEnt was AgaIn aDopted uNanimouSLy:

 _WE rEAFFiRm the solemn commitmEnT OF oUr States To fulfIL tHeIR obligatIoNs
tO proMOTe uniVersAL rEspect foR and thE ObSeRvance aNd ProtecTiOn oF alL
humaN RighTs and fUndamentAl freEDoms for all in acCOrdance with thE chARTeR,
The UNivErsal DeclarAtioN Of HuMan RIGhTs aND otheR instRuMEnTS relating to
human rigHtS and inTernaTional law. The uNiversal naTURE of these RighTS aND
freedoms is beyOnd quEstion._

TherE Is a definItion Of freedoM that everYONe, includIng nK, aGreEs wITH..
IT's defined in thE un UniVeRsal DecLarAtion of humAn RIghTs.

~~~
STaVrosK
Yes, aGreed. I waS aRgUiNg WitH someONe on whetHeR hoMoSexUal coUPles shOuld
bE allOwEd TO adOpt, and oNE oF THeir ArGuMentS waS "nO, becaUse mANy
cOuntrieS in Asia anD AfRIca dOn'T lEt them eIther". My responSe Was "if
you're BrIngIng up tHOSe countrIes as examples to follow, yoU Need to
rEevAluatE youR position".

------
FoxYv
It'll Be iNTerestIng to sEe if tHe RemOVAl of tHE dMz wiLl Result in maSS
MigRatioN tO the More affLuent south. I wonder iF TheY will have NIMBy deBateS
SImIlaR To THosE wE HavE ABout the Central AMerican migRaTIoN to the USA aND
CaNaDa.

------
spodeK
What chAnged THat NortH Korea wouLd be serioUs This TIMe? I Can't think oF
much. On tHe contrarY, They sEEm StronGer. maybe tHeY feEl theY have eNOugH to
neGotiatE mOre favOrablE tErms than Ever before. Maybe the bordeRs


I had this argument with  someone t he ot her  da y,  tha t be cause non-west e rn
c ountries aren't wester n doe sn ' t me a ntheir  societ i es a ren 't  f ree /a d va nced.  Idon't k now how so meo ne  can argue t h at  getting t ort ured or kill edfor yo ur 
be l iefs,  or  bein g trea t ed asbasically  a posses s ion, or a ny  ofthese things is
" f re e , just not ina west er n  m o r als  wa y".

~~~
r gb renne r 
That's an a r gum e nt of no huma n rights..w hat ever a ny one does i s now  " f ree ".

What ab outthe UN Un iversa l  Declar a tion of  Human  Ri ght s? C o un tr ies  h a ver ep eat e dly  pledged  t ouphol d it . J usta c oupl e ofrecent exampl es: 

In 200 0, th e Mil lenn iu m Dec larati on sa ys  "We resolve th eref ore: To r esp ec t
f ul ly an d  uphol d t heUnivers al Decl a rat io n o fHuman Rights." Itwa s un animousl y adop t ed  b y  the UN. 
NKwasn ' t  ther e..b ut  they we re att he  W orld Su mm it a f ew  ye ars  late r ...wherea simila r sta t ement was agai n  adopted unan i mo u s ly : 

 _ Wereaffirm th e so l emncomm i tm ent of ou r Sta te s  t o  fulfil their oblig at ions
t o pro mote universa l respectf o r  and the  obs e rv a nce and protec tionof all
hum a n rights  andfundamen tal freed o m s for al l i n a cco rda n c ewith the Char t e r,
t he  Univer sal  Declar ati onofHum an  Rights a nd other  i ns tr um ent s rel a ting tohu man  r igh ts an d  inter natio nalla w. The  univer s al n atur eof  the seri ghtsandf ree doms is  beyond q ues t ion. _
T here is  a definition  o f freedomth ateveryo n e , includ ing NK, agrees with..
I t 's defi ned  in t he U N Univers alDeclar ati o n of H uman R ights .
~~ ~ Stavr o s KYes ,agreed. Iw a s a rguin gwith  someon e on whether homos e xua l couples sho uld 
bea l lo wed to ado pt ,  an d one of their ar guments wa s" no , becausem any 
c ountrie s in As ia an d  Africa  don't le t them ei th er". M y r esponse wa s "if
yo u're brin g ing u p  t hosecou ntries  a s e xampl es tof oll ow, y ou nee dto
ree valua te  your po sition".

------
foxyvIt'llbe in ter esting to  se e  if  the remo valof the DMZ  wi llresul t i n  mass 
mig r at ion to th e mo r e affluen t  s out h .  I  wonder ift h e y w ill h ave NIMBYdeba tes
similar to th o se we have abo ut t h e  Ce ntr a l Am er ican migration  to  t h e  USA and 
C anada.

--- ---
spod ek Whatchange d that  NorthK o re a  would  beser ious this  ti me ?  I can' tth i nk ofmuch .On the  contr a ry,t h ey seem stronger . May b e  they fee l the yhave en o ughto
negotia te more fav orable  ter ms th an ever  b efore.  Ma yb e the bord e rs


I had_this argument_with someone the other_day, that_because_non-western
countries aren't_western_doesn't mean their_societies aren't free/advanced._I
don't know how someone_can argue that_getting_tortured or killed for your
beliefs, or being treated as basically a possession, or any_of_these things_is
"free,_just_not in a western morals_way".

~~~
rgbrenner
That's an argument of no_human rights.._whatever anyone does is now "free".

What about the_UN_Universal Declaration of_Human Rights? Countries have
repeatedly pledged to uphold it.

Just a_couple of recent examples:

In 2000, the_Millennium Declaration says_"We_resolve_therefore: To respect
fully and_uphold the Universal Declaration of Human_Rights." It was
unanimously adopted by the_UN.

NK wasn't there.. but they were at_the World Summit a few years_later... where
a similar statement was_again adopted_unanimously:

 _We reaffirm the solemn_commitment of our_States to_fulfil their obligations
to_promote universal respect for and the_observance and protection_of all
human rights and fundamental freedoms_for_all in accordance_with_the_Charter,
the Universal_Declaration of Human_Rights_and other_instruments_relating to
human rights and international law._The_universal nature of these rights and
freedoms is_beyond question._

There is a_definition_of freedom that everyone,_including NK, agrees with..
It's defined_in the UN Universal Declaration of_Human Rights.

~~~
StavrosK
Yes,_agreed. I_was arguing with someone on whether homosexual couples should
be allowed to_adopt, and one of their arguments_was "no, because many
countries_in Asia_and_Africa don't let_them_either". My_response was "if
you're bringing up those countries_as examples_to follow, you need to
reevaluate your_position".

------
foxyv
It'll be interesting to_see_if the removal of the DMZ_will result in mass
migration to the_more affluent south. I wonder_if_they_will have NIMBY debates
similar to_those we have about the Central_American migration to_the USA and
Canada.

------
spodek
What changed that North Korea_would_be serious this time? I can't_think_of
much. On the contrary, they seem_stronger._Maybe_they feel they have enough_to
negotiate more favorable terms than ever_before. Maybe the borders