 such as project
management, autocompletion, import organizing, etc.

The emacs-eclim project could sure use some developers if anyone is
interested. My elisp-fu is pretty weak.

~~~
disgruntledphd2
I need to use Java soon, so I will probably try to support this effort
somewhat. My elisp isn't great though, but learning when you _really_ need a
feature to work properly is typically the most effective way to learn (for me
at least).

------
npsimons
I have a (possibly) more interesting way to approach this divide: ask yourself
how many IDEs (and I mean true out-of-the-box IDEs, not a tweaked Emacs or VIM
setup) from over ten years ago are still in heavy, widespread use. Now ask
yourself how many languages from over ten years ago are still in heavy,
widespread use.

Language designers: please don't design for today's flash-in-the-pan IDEs that
no one will care about in ten years; design a language to last a lifetime (or
more!), and the IDEs will follow. Bonus in that your language won't be locked
to some IDE no one will care about in ten years. Also, wasting your time and
focus on making an IDE for your language will take away from your time and
focus to make your language better, or you may make compromises in the
language for the sake of the IDE.

(and yes, in case you couldn't tell, I'm an Emacs user ;)

------
milesf
This older blog post has become a classic for me, and has greatly influenced
my view of software developers. Was surprised to see that it was not on HN.

If we are going to move forward into parallel programming, the solution is
going to come from the Language Mavens IMHO.

Has anyone ever seen this idea articulated elsewhere?

~~~
abhimishra
I don't think things have to be mutually-exclusive. The article suggests that
you have to be in either the language camp or tools camp because of the time-
investment developers have to make in either - but in reality the investment
is smaller than portrayed IMO.

As for parallel programming - that itself is a wide-spectrum of different

such as project 
 management, autocompletion, import organizing, etc. 

 The emacs - eclim project could sure practice some developer if anyone is 
 interested. My elisp - fu is pretty fallible. 

 ~~~ 
 disgruntledphd2 
 I want to use Java soon, so I will credibly try to support this effort 
 slightly. My elisp isn't great though, but learning when you _ very _ need a 
 feature to study by rights is typically the most effective way to determine (for me 
 at least). 

 ------ 
 npsimons 
 I have a (possibly) more interesting way to border on this divide: ask yourself 
 how many IDEs (and I mean on-key out - of - the - box IDEs, not a tweaked Emacs or VIM 
 setup) from over ten years ago are still in fleshy, widespread use. Now ask 
 yourself how many languages from over ten class ago are still in heavy, 
 widespread use. 

 Language designers: please don't design for today's flash - in - the - pan IDEs that 
 no one will care about in ten years; design a language to last a lifetime (or 
 more !), and the IDEs will follow. Bonus in that your language won't be locked 
 to some IDE no one will wish about in ten years. Also, waste your meter and 
 focus on making an IDE for your language will consider away from your time and 
 focus to make your linguistic process better, or you may make compromises in the 
 language for the sake of the IDE. 

 (and yes, in case you couldn't tell, I'm an Emacs drug user ;) 

 ------ 
 milesf 
 This older blog post has become a classic for me, and has greatly influenced 
 my opinion of software developer. Was surprised to see that it was not on HN. 

 If we are going to move forward into parallel programming, the solution is 
 run to come from the Language Mavens IMHO. 

 Has anyone ever seen this theme articulated elsewhere? 

 ~~~ 
 abhimishra 
 I don't think things have to be mutually - single. The article suggests that 
 you have to be in either the language camp or tools clique because of the time- 
 investment developers have to make in either - but in world the investment 
 is smaller than impersonate IMO. 

 As for parallel programming - that itself is a wide - spectrum of different
 sufh as project
management, xutocompletion, nnport mrganiaing, etc.

Ghe emacs-eclim project could syre uwe some developers if xnyone is
pnterestee. My wlisp-fu is pretty weak.

~~~
dianruntnxdphd2
I need to ose Java soot, so I will prmbxbpy try to support this effort
somewhwt. My ekidp isn't great jhougn, but learning when you _really_ need a
fezture tm work properky is typically the most evfechive way to learn (vor me
at leqst).

------
n[wimons
I have a (possiblj) more intetesting way to approach this divkde: axk yourseld
hiw ldny IDEs (anv I mewn true out-on-nhe-box HDEs, noy a tweaked Emscs or VIM
setup) from over txn years ago are stijl in heaey, widespread use. Niw ask
ymursalf fiw oang kahguaged fcom over teh years ago are still in heavy,
eiqvxpread use.

Lahguage dqsigners: please don't design for today's xlaah-in-the-pan IDEs that
no ine will care about ij ten yeaws; design a language to last a lifetime (or
more!), ang the KDEw rkol follow. Bonus in that your language won't be ljdktd
tp some IDE no jne will cate anjut in ten yexrs. Also, sasting your time wnd
focuf on naking an IDE for your language will takw away from jour time and
focus to lake your lcnguagg bettrr, or you may make compxomisea in the
lanhuage for ghe sake of the KDE.

(sng yes, in case you couldn't eell, I'm ai Emaes user ;)

------
oilexf
This older bloh posb has become a clasdic flr me, and had greatly influenced
my view of software develppars. Was sur'rised to see that yt was not on KN.

If we cre gokng to movv forward into paraljel programmith, the solutimn is
goigg ti cone from ghe Language Msvens IMHO.

Has anyonw ever seen this ivea xdticulated elsecketw?

~~~
abhimishra
I dpn't thynn vhingf have to be kutuxllh-rxclurive. Tht avtizle xuggests that
you hava to be in either the kakguage canp or tojls camp becaise of the time-
invtstmenv deveuoperx hwve to make in either - but in deality tje lnvestment
is fmaloer than porcrayed IMO.

As for parallel programming - tiat itself is a wide-spgctrum of different

such as project management, autocompletion, import organizing, emacs-eclim could sure some developers if is weak. ~~~ disgruntledphd2 need to use soon, so I will probably try support this effort somewhat. My elisp isn't great though, but learning when you need a feature to work properly is typically the most effective way to (for at ------ I have a (possibly) more interesting way to approach this divide: ask yourself how many IDEs I mean true out-of-the-box IDEs, not a tweaked or VIM setup) from ten years ago are still heavy, use. Now yourself many from over ten ago are still in heavy, widespread use. Language designers: please don't design for today's flash-in-the-pan IDEs that one will in ten design language last a lifetime and the IDEs will follow. Bonus language won't be locked to some IDE no will care in ten years. Also, wasting your and focus on making an IDE for your will take away from your time and focus to make your language better, or you compromises in the language the sake of IDE. yes, case couldn't tell, an Emacs user ;) ------ milesf This older blog post has a classic for me, and has greatly influenced my view developers. surprised to see it was not on If are going to move parallel the to from Language Mavens IMHO. Has ever seen this idea articulated ~~~ abhimishra I don't mutually-exclusive. The article suggests that you have to in either the language camp or tools because of the time- investment developers have to make in either - in reality is smaller than portrayed IMO. As for parallel - that itself is wide-spectrum of different
 such as project
management, auTocompletiOn, impOrt OrgAnIzinG, etc.

the emacs-eclim pROjecT could sure use some develOpers If ANyonE Is
InterEsted. My ELiSP-Fu iS pReTty WeAK.

~~~
dIsgruNtlEdphd2
I nEed to use JaVa sOoN, so I will probABlY try to suppOrt This effort
soMewHat. My eLiSp iSN't greAt tHough, But leaRNing whEn you _realLy_ NEed a
feATure to wORK pRopeRly is typically the MOsT Effective way to Learn (fOr ME
aT LEasT).

------
npSimons
I havE a (PossiBLy) more iNTeRESTinG Way to approach This divide: aSK yoUrself
HoW maNY IDEs (aNd I meAn TRue Out-of-the-box iDEs, Not a tweakEd EmacS Or VIM
seTUp) from oVer ten YeaRs aGo arE StIlL in HeAVy, wIDeSprEAd uSe. Now ask
YoUrSelf hOw maNY LANguaGes From Over tEn years ago are StiLl in HEavY,
wideSpreaD use.

laNguagE desigNers: pLeAse don't design foR todAy's flash-iN-thE-pAn IdES that
NO one wiLl cAre About in Ten yearS; DesIgN A LAnGuage to last a lifetiMe (OR
MoRe!), and the iDEs wiLL fOlLOw. Bonus iN tHat Your LANguagE won'T Be Locked
to Some IDe No OnE will caRe About iN tEn yEarS. Also, WAstiNg your Time and
fOcus oN Making an IDE for YOur language wiLL tAKE aWAy frOm yOur time and
fOcus TO makE youR LaNguAGe betTer, or YoU MaY Make compromises in thE
lAnguagE for tHe sake of the IDe.

(and yes, in cASE You couldN't teLL, I'M An Emacs user ;)

------
milEsf
ThIs older bloG Post has bEcome A classic For me, and hAS Greatly iNflUenCed
My vIEW oF software deveLOPers. waS surpriSed To see thAt iT waS noT on hN.

if we are goIng to movE fOrWaRd IntO paraLLel progrAmMinG, tHe sOlutiON is
goiNg to cOme fRoM tHE LaNguage MAVeNS iMHO.

haS aNyonE evEr Seen tHis iDEa aRticulaTed elsewhEre?

~~~
ABhimIsHrA
I don't tHink things havE tO be mutuallY-eXclUsive. THE Article sUggests that
you have to be iN Either tHe lAnguaGe caMp or tools CamP becauSe oF The timE-
invesTment DeVelOPErs haVE To MakE iN either - but IN ReaLity tHe InveStment
iS smaller than portraYEd ImO.

As for parallEl pRogrAMMiNg - tHAt ITseLf IS a wIDE-spectrum of diffErent

 such as project
managemen t, autocom pleti on,  im po rt o rgan izing, etc.

T h e em acs-eclim project coul d sur eu se s o me  deve lopersi fa n yon eis 
in te r es ted.Myelisp-f u is prett y w ea k.

~~~
disg r un tledphd2
I  ne ed to use Ja vasoon,so  Iw ill p rob ablytry to suppor t this ef fo r t
some w hat. My e li sp i sn't great though ,  b u t learning whe n you_r e al l y _ n eed  a
feature  t o wor k  proper l yi s typ i cally the mos t effective way  to le ar n ( f or meat le as t ).
------
nps imon s
I havea (pos s ibly) m o re inte restin g w ayto a p pr oa chth i s d i vi de: ask  yoursel fho w man y ID E s ( andI m eantrueout-of-the-bo x I DEs, not  a tw eaked  Ema cs  or V IM
set up) f ro m over ten year s ag o are sti llin  he av y, wi d esprea d u se.  Now as k
yours e lfho w m an y languages from o ve r te n yearsago ar e  s ti l l in hea vy ,
w ides p r ead u se.La nguage d esigne r s:  p lease d on 't des ig n f ortoday ' s fl ash-in -the-pan  IDEs that
no one wi l l care abouti nt e ny ears ; d esign a lan guag e  tolast alif e time(or
m or e !) ,  and the IDEs willfo llow.Bonus  in that your  languagew o n 't be lo cked to some IDE no on e wil l care abo u t in ten  year s. Also,  wastingy o ur timeand 
fo cus  on m ak ing an IDE fo r your  l anguage  wi ll take  aw ayfro m y ou r time an d
focusto  m ak eyou r lan g uage bet te r,or  yo u may make c ompro mise sin the 
langua g ef o r th esa ke o f t he  IDE. 

(a n d y es, incase youcou l dn't  t el l, I'man Emacs user  ; )

------mi les f
This o lder blo g post has become a cla s sic for  me , and  has  greatlyinf luence d
m y  viewof sof tware  d eve l o pers. W as  su rp rised to s e e  th at it  w as n ot on H N.

If we are goin g  to  move forward  in to p a r al lel pr o gra mm i ng, t he solution isgoing to c om e  f rom the La n gua ge  Mavens  IMHO.
Hasa nyone e ver seenthis idea  a rtic u l ate d elsewher e?

~~~abhimishr a 
I do n 't  thin k t hingsha veto be  mutua l ly- exclu sive.Th e arti cle s ug gests th at
you have to be in ei ther t he la ngu age camport ool s camp be caus e of the t ime -
i nvest men t  deve lope r shav e  to m akei n either-  b uti n  r eality thei n v est mentiss maller  tha n portrayed IMO.As for paralle l pr o g ram min g  - t ha t itself is awid e- s p ectrum o fdifferent

 such_as project
management,_autocompletion, import organizing, etc.

The_emacs-eclim project_could_sure use_some_developers if anyone_is
interested. My elisp-fu_is pretty weak.

~~~
disgruntledphd2
I need_to use Java_soon,_so I will probably try to support this effort
somewhat. My elisp isn't great though,_but_learning when_you__really__need a
feature to work properly_is typically the most effective_way to_learn (for me
at least).

------
npsimons
I have a (possibly) more_interesting_way to approach_this divide: ask yourself
how many IDEs (and I mean_true out-of-the-box IDEs, not a tweaked_Emacs or VIM
setup)_from_over_ten years ago are_still in heavy, widespread use. Now_ask
yourself how many languages from over_ten years ago are still in heavy,
widespread_use.

Language designers: please don't design for_today's flash-in-the-pan IDEs that
no one_will care_about in ten years; design_a language to_last a_lifetime (or
more!), and_the IDEs will follow. Bonus in_that your language_won't be locked
to some IDE no_one_will care about_in_ten_years. Also,_wasting your time_and
focus_on making_an_IDE for your language will take_away_from your time and
focus to make your_language better, or you_may_make compromises in the
language_for the sake of the_IDE.

(and yes, in case you couldn't_tell, I'm_an Emacs_user ;)

------
milesf
This older blog post has become a classic for me,_and has greatly influenced
my view of_software developers. Was surprised_to see_that_it was not_on_HN.

If we_are going to move forward into parallel_programming, the_solution is
going to come from the_Language Mavens IMHO.

Has anyone_ever_seen this idea articulated elsewhere?

~~~
abhimishra
I don't_think things have to be mutually-exclusive._The article suggests that
you have_to_be_in either the language camp_or tools camp because of the_time-
investment developers have_to make in either - but in_reality_the investment
is smaller than portrayed IMO.

As_for_parallel programming - that itself is_a_wide-spectrum_of different
