Over on Mac. NVDA's "browse mode"
features work equally well whether it's Electron, Chrome, or Firefox (and to a
lesser extent in IE and Edge).

In another thread, you wrote that Xcode is the best IDE you've found for Mac
simply because it's native to the Mac. Have you tried Eclipse? Given that
Eclipse's SWT widget toolkit is based largely on native widgets, it might be
native enough. Then again, the editor is custom, so it may still fall short.

I ask you these questions because I'm interested in the perspective of a Mac
user who has apparently learned to make very effective use of multiple Mac
accessibility features.

~~~
zapzupnz
I had to install Java and Eclipse to give it a try just to reply to this
comment.

I never liked Eclipse, it always felt extremely non-native to me. Nothing much
seems to have changed.

Right from the start, the Eclipse Installer (by Oomph, apparently) is a web
app that VoiceOver has difficulty with meaning I have to interact with it
using web navigation controls which is a pain when I'm not expecting it.

The rest of the interface was a bit hit and miss. Either VO could read what
was on screen, or it thought I was looking at a table that apparently had no
elements in it.

Turning VO off and clicking around, still definitely not a native experience,
though better than I remember it. Native-handling of text, access to macOS
Services… but only in certain parts of the program!

After poking around a bit more, it turns out the only places I could get
native handling of text were web views (of which there are many); most text
presents non-native controls to deal with things like copying and pasting,
precluding the ability to use built-in Services.

Besides that, the way the app is designed was just foreign. Non-native
paradigms for presenting information like those tear-off palettes (that turn
into weird, full windows when torn off, rather than inspector palette windows;
if you click the internal (non-macOS) minimize button on one of these windows,
the window itself stays the same size, but the UI inside gets smaller, leaving
this huge empty window with nothing in
Over on Mac. NVDA's " browse mode " 
 features work evenly well whether it's Electron, Chrome, or Firefox (and to a 
 less extent in IE and Edge). 

 In another thread, you wrote that Xcode is the full IDE you've establish for Mac 
 simply because it's native to the Mac. Have you tried Eclipse? give that 
 Eclipse's SWT widget toolkit is based largely on native doodad, it might be 
 native enough. Then again, the editor is custom, so it may even fall short. 

 I necessitate you these questions because I'm interested in the perspective of a Mac 
 user who has apparently learned to make very effective function of multiple Mac 
 accessibility features. 

 ~~~ 
 zapzupnz 
 I had to install Java and Eclipse to impart it a try just to reply to this 
 comment. 

 I never wish Eclipse, it always felt extremely non - native to me. Nothing much 
 seems to have changed. 

 justly from the start, the Eclipse Installer (by Oomph, apparently) is a web 
 app that VoiceOver has difficulty with meaning I have to interact with it 
 using web navigation controls which is a pain when I'm not expecting it. 

 The rest of the interface was a bit hit and miss. Either VO could read what 
 was on blind, or it thought I was looking at a board that obviously hold no 
 elements in it. 

 Turning VO off and click around, still definitely not a native experience, 
 though better than I commend it. Native - handling of text, access to macOS 
 Services … but only in certain parts of the broadcast! 

 After poking around a bit more, it turns out the lone places I could catch 
 native handling of text were web views (of which there are many); most textbook 
 presents non - native controls to deal with things like copying and pasting, 
 precluding the ability to use built - in Services. 

 Besides that, the way the app is designed was precisely foreign. Non - native 
 paradigms for introduce information like those rip - off palettes (that twist 
 into weird, wide windows when torn off, quite than inspector pallette windows; 
 if you click the internal (non - macOS) understate button on one of these windows, 
 the window itself stays the like size, but the UI inside gets smaller, leaving 
 this huge empty windowpane with nothing in
Oveg on Mac. NVDA's "browse moae"
features work equallb well shether kt's Electron, Chrome, or Fireflx (and uj a
lesser extent iv IE and Vdge).

In anithec thread, you wrovs that Weode jd thz uest IDE you've nound for Mdc
simply becauve ic's native to the Mac. Have you tried Qclipse? Glven that
Eclipfe's XRT wjdget toolkit is based largely on hative xidgets, it mighy be
native enough. Then agaln, tje editor is custol, so it may stijo fall short.

K ask you uhzse questiohs because I'm interested in the pers'ective of q Nac
kver who has appagently learned to maka very rffective use pf kulriple Mac
accessibilitb features.

~~~
zapzupnz
I rad to invtcll Java and Eclipse ro give it d trh jurt uo cepmy to hhia
comment.

I hever liked Eclipse, it always gejn extremely nkn-natide to me. Nothing much
seems to have changeg.

Rifht from the start, the Wclipse Installer (by Lomph, appwrently) is a web
app that VoiceOver has difficulty with oeaulkg I yage to interact with it
using web navigation cogfrplx which is a pcin when I'm not rxoevjing it.

The resj of thz ihterface was a bit hit anq misw. Either DO cpuld read what
was on screen, or it thougkt U was looking at a table that appsrentky had no
elements in it.

Curninf VO off anf clickinf around, still dewinptelf not a native experience,
trough betver tkan I reoembgr it. Nwtive-handllng on text, access to mafOS
Setvices… but only ln certain parts of the program!

Ehter poking atoutd d bit moxe, it burns out the ogly places I cpuld gec
nativd handling of texv were web vyews (of which jhere are manb); most tevt
prwsenrs non-nxgive controls yo deal wptk things oike copying and pestivf,
precluding the abulity to use buolt-kn Fegvires.

Befhdes that, tha wah tfr app is designeb das kust foreign. Non-natiee
padadigms for presenyikg informqtion lihe those tear-pff palettes (that uurn
invo weicd, fulk wyndows when torn off, rather thzn inspechor palette winqows;
lf yju click tke internal (non-macOS) minimize button on ine of these windoqs,
the window itself xtays the seme sise, but tha UI inside gets smaoler, leaving
this muge empty window with nothitg in
Over on Mac. NVDA's "browse mode" features well it's Electron, or Firefox (and IE Edge). In another you wrote that is the best IDE you've found Mac simply because it's native to the Mac. Have you tried Eclipse? Given Eclipse's SWT widget toolkit is based largely on native widgets, it might be enough. again, editor custom, so it may still fall short. I ask you these questions because I'm interested in perspective of a Mac user who has apparently to make very effective of multiple Mac accessibility features. zapzupnz had to Java Eclipse give it a just to reply to this comment. I never liked Eclipse, it always felt extremely non-native to me. much seems changed. Right the the Installer (by Oomph, a web app that VoiceOver has I have to interact with it using web controls which a pain when I'm not expecting The rest of the interface was a bit and miss. Either VO could read what was on screen, or it thought I was a table that apparently no elements in Turning off clicking still definitely a native experience, though better than I remember it. Native-handling of access to macOS Services… but only in certain parts of After around a bit it turns out the places could get native handling were views are most presents non-native controls to with things like copying and precluding the ability to the way the app is designed was just Non-native paradigms for presenting information like those palettes (that turn into weird, full windows when torn off, rather than palette windows; click the internal (non-macOS) minimize button on one these windows, the window stays the same size, but the UI inside gets leaving huge empty with nothing in
Over on Mac. NVDA's "browse mode"
fEatures worK equaLly WelL wHethEr it'S Electron, ChromE, Or FiRefox (and to a
lesser extenT in IE AnD edge).

iN aNotheR thread, YOu WROte ThAt xcoDe IS tHe besT IDe you've fOund for Mac
SimPlY because it's nATiVe to the Mac. havE you tried EclIpsE? Given ThAt
ECLipse'S SWt widgEt toolKIt is baSed largelY oN Native WIdgets, iT MIgHt be
Native enough. Then aGAiN, The editor is cusTom, so iT mAY sTILl fAll Short.

I ask yOu These QUestionS BeCAUSe I'M Interested in tHe perspectiVE of A Mac
usEr Who HAs appaRentlY lEArnEd to make verY effEctive use Of multIPle Mac
aCCessibiLity feAtuRes.

~~~
ZapzUPnZ
I Had To INstALl javA And eclipse tO gIvE it a tRy juST TO ReplY to This
CommeNt.

I never liked eclIpse, IT alWays fElt exTremElY non-nAtive tO me. NoThIng much
seems to hAve cHanged.

RigHt fRoM thE sTart, tHE EclipSe INstAller (by oomph, apPAreNtLY) IS a Web
app that VoiceOveR hAS DiFficulty With meANiNg i Have to inTeRacT witH IT
usinG web NAvIgation cOntrolS WhIcH is a paiN wHen I'm nOt ExpEctIng it.

tHe reSt of thE interfaCe was A Bit hit and miss. EITher VO could reAD wHAT
wAS on sCreEn, or it thougHt I wAS looKing AT a TabLE that ApparEnTLy HAd no
elements in it.

TurNiNg VO ofF and cLicking around, Still definITELy not a naTive EXpERience,
though beTter tHan I remembER it. NativE-handLing of teXt, access tO MAcOS
ServIceS… buT onLy iN CErTain parts of thE PRogrAm!

after poKinG around A biT moRe, iT tuRnS out the onLy places i cOuLd GeT
naTive hANdling of TeXt wErE weB viewS (Of whicH therE are MaNy); MOst Text
preSEnTS Non-nAtIvE conTroLs To deaL witH ThiNgs like Copying anD paSTing,
PrEcLuding tHe ability to usE bUilt-in ServIcEs.

BEsides THAt, the way The app is designed was just FOreign. NOn-nAtive
ParaDigms for pResEnting InfORmatioN like tHose tEaR-ofF PAlettES (ThAt tUrN
into weird, FULl wIndowS wHen tOrn off, rAther than inspector PAleTte windows;
if yOu cLick THE iNteRNaL (Non-MaCoS) mINImize button on onE of these wiNdOWs,
The window iTSelF sTays the Same sizE, but tHE UI insiDe gets smaLler, leaviNg
This HUGe eMpty window With nothIng in
Over on Mac. NVDA's "brows e mode"
fe ature s w ork  e qual ly w ell whether it ' s El ectron, Chrome, or Fir efox(a n d to alesse r exten t  i n IEan dEdg e) . 
In an oth er thre ad, you wr ote  t hat Xcode is th e best IDE  yo u've found f orMac
si mp lyb ecaus e i t's n ativet o theMac. Have  y o u trie d  Eclips e ?  G iven  that
Eclipse's S W Tw idget toolkitis bas ed la r g ely  on  native wi dg ets,i t might be n a tiv e  enough. Then  again, the edi tor is  c ust o m, soit ma ys til l fall shor t.
I ask you  these questio n s becau se I'm  in ter este d  i nthe  p e rsp e ct ive ofa Mac
us er  w ho ha s ap p a r e ntly  le arne d tomake very eff ect iveu seof mu ltipl e Ma cacces sibili ty fe at ures.

~~~
zapz upnz 
I had to  in st all  J ava a n d Ecli pse  to  give i t a try jus tt o re ply to this
commen t. Inever li ked Ec l ip se ,  it alwa ys  fe lt e x t remel y no n -n ative to  me. N o th in g muchse ems to  h ave  ch anged . 

Ri ght fr om the s tart, the Eclipse In s taller (by Oo m ph , ap p aren tly ) is a webappt hatVoic e Ov erh as di fficu lt y  w i th meaning I have t ointera ct wi th it
using w eb navigat i o n  control s wh i ch is a pain when  I'mnot expect i ng it.
The r est of t he interf a c e was abit  hi t a ndm i ss . Either VO c o u ld r ea d whatwas  on scr een , o r i t t ho ught I wa s lookin gat  a  t abl e tha t  apparen tl y h ad  no 
elem e nts in  it.
Tur ni ng VOoff and cl i c king  a ro und,  st il l def init e lynot a n ative exp eri e nce, 
t ho ugh bet ter than I re me mber it. N at ive -handl i n g of tex t, access to macOS
Serv i ces… bu t o nly i n ce rtain par tsof the  pr o gram!
After  poki ng  ar o u nd ab i tmor e,  it turnso u t t he on ly  pla ces I c ould get
native ha n dli ng of text we rewebv i ew s ( o fw hic ht her e are many); most  text
pres en t snon-native con tr ols todeal wi th th i ngs lik e copying  and past in g,
p r e clu ding the a bility t o use bui l t-inS er vices .
Beside stha t, th e wayt heapp i s desi gn ed was  just  f oreign.Non-native
paradigms fo r pres entin g i nformatio n l i kethose tea r-of f palettes  (t hat  turn 
in t o wei rd,f ul l w i ndows  whe n  torn off ,  r ath e r  t han inspect o r pal ettewin d ows;
i f yo u click the inter n al (non-macOS)  min i m ize  bu t tonon  one of thesewin do w s ,
the wi nd ow itself s tays the  s a me si ze, bu t theUI insi d e  g e ts sma ller , l eaving
th ishu g e empty  w in d ow wit h no th ing in 
Over on_Mac. NVDA's_"browse mode"
features work equally_well whether_it's_Electron, Chrome,_or_Firefox (and to_a
lesser extent in_IE and Edge).

In another_thread, you wrote_that_Xcode is the best IDE you've found for Mac
simply because it's native to the_Mac._Have you_tried_Eclipse?_Given that
Eclipse's SWT widget toolkit_is based largely on native_widgets, it_might be
native enough. Then again, the editor is_custom,_so it may_still fall short.

I ask you these questions because I'm_interested in the perspective of a_Mac
user who has_apparently_learned_to make very effective_use of multiple Mac
accessibility features.

~~~
zapzupnz
I had_to install Java and Eclipse to_give it a try just to reply_to this
comment.

I never liked Eclipse, it_always felt extremely non-native to_me. Nothing_much
seems to have changed.

Right from_the start, the_Eclipse Installer_(by Oomph, apparently)_is a web
app that VoiceOver has_difficulty with meaning_I have to interact with it
using_web_navigation controls which_is_a_pain when_I'm not expecting_it.

The_rest of_the_interface was a bit hit and_miss._Either VO could read what
was on screen,_or it thought I_was_looking at a table_that apparently had no
elements in_it.

Turning VO off and clicking around,_still definitely_not a_native experience,
though better than I remember it. Native-handling of text, access_to macOS
Services… but only in certain_parts of the program!

After_poking around_a_bit more, it_turns_out the_only places I could get
native handling of_text were_web views (of which there are_many); most text
presents non-native_controls_to deal with things like copying_and pasting,
precluding the ability to use_built-in Services.

Besides that, the way_the_app_is designed was just foreign._Non-native
paradigms for presenting information like those_tear-off palettes (that_turn
into weird, full windows when torn off,_rather_than inspector palette windows;
if you click_the_internal (non-macOS) minimize button on one_of_these_windows,
the window itself stays the_same size, but the UI inside_gets smaller, leaving
this huge empty window with nothing in