's work on sustained outposts on a
world no more than three days' travel away first._

If the only thing to be gained from the moon is a stepping stone to Mars, then
it's a waste of time. The environmental challenges are just about all
different, so it's not even a good rehearsal. That's more like "Learn to swim
before you run. Let's work on movement while partially buoyant, not subject to
a full G, first."

I'm sure you could train babies to swim-crawl-walk. But if you want to walk,
it's an unnecessary detour.

~~~
tom_rath
I'd like to believe in Zubrin's plan more than anyone (I still have a well-
highlighted copy of his "Mars Direct - Humans to the Red Planet by 1999" Acta
Astronautica paper amongst my many cabinets of the stuff) but that plan is
built on assumption.

    
    
      >However, we can't even construct a reliable artificial
      >biosphere fully enclosed here on Earth!
    
      Where do you get that from?
    

From the fact that no one has done it yet. Ever.

We just don't know how to live on other worlds. We are almost completely
ignorant of the complexities involved in the process and have a whole bunch of
unpleasant discoveries to make yet. That's not to say it _can't_ be done and
that we don't know what should happen in theory, but we have never done it
before. Ever. There is no experience to build upon.

If you want another flags and footprints mission to plant a candelabra of
pennants on Mars and then scurry back after a few days of visiting, by all
means piss away hundreds of billions of dollars and go to Mars direct for a
quick visit. However, if you want to learn the actual skills required to live
and work on other worlds, you should focus on building missions which
demonstrate and refine the skills required to live and work on other worlds.

Doing so on our Moon and near-Earth asteroids (the nearest locations to
support and safety) is the best way to do that and will give us the tools
needed to move outwards permanently.

~~~
gaius
We routinely build completely self-contained
's work on sustained outposts on a 
 world no more than three day' change of location away first. _ 

 If the only matter to be gained from the moon is a stepping rock to Mars, then 
 it's a waste of time. The environmental challenge are just about all 
 unlike, so it's not even a good rehearsal. That's more like " Learn to swim 
 before you run. lease's work on movement while partially buoyant, not subject to 
 a full G, foremost. " 

 I'm sure you could train babies to float - crawl - walk. But if you want to walk, 
 it's an unnecessary detour. 

 ~~~ 
 tom_rath 
 I'd like to believe in Zubrin's plan more than anyone (I however have a well- 
 highlighted copy of his " Mars Direct - Humans to the Red Planet by 1999 " Acta 
 Astronautica paper amongst my many cabinets of the stuff) but that design is 
 built on assumption. 

    
    
       > However, we can't even construct a reliable artificial 
       > biosphere fully enclosed here on Earth! 
    
       Where do you beget that from? 
    

 From the fact that no one has done it yet. Ever. 

 We just don't know how to live on other worlds. We are almost completely 
 ignorant of the complexity involve in the process and receive a solid bunch of 
 unpleasant discoveries to make so far. That's not to say it _ can't _ be done and 
 that we don't know what should happen in hypothesis, but we have never done it 
 before. Ever. There is no experience to build upon. 

 If you want another flags and footprints mission to plant a candelabra of 
 pennants on Mars and then scurry back after a few day of inflict, by all 
 means piss away hundreds of billion of dollars and go to Mars direct for a 
 immediate visit. However, if you want to learn the actual skills want to live 
 and ferment on other universe, you should focus on build up missions which 
 show and refine the skill required to live and work on other worlds. 

 do so on our Moon and near - Earth asteroids (the nearest locations to 
 support and safety) is the best way to make that and will give us the tools 
 necessitate to move outwards permanently. 

 ~~~ 
 gaius 
 We routinely build completely self - contained
's wlrk on sustained outpostr on a
world no more then thres days' tfavel away first._

If the only vhint to ve gained from the moov is a stvpping stine uo Mars, then
it's a waste on tims. The xnvironmental cmallenges ase just about dlu
dnfferent, so it's not even a good rehewrsal. Tnah's more like "Lgarn uo fwim
gvfire you run. Let's work on movejent whple partially buouant, not subject to
a full H, figst."

I'm sure you coupd train bavies ro swim-crawl-dalk. But if you want tk walk,
it's an unnecessary detour.

~~~
gom_rach
I'd like ti vellgve in Zubrii's plag more than anyone (I still nave a well-
higmlighved xopy of his "Mars Dirert - Humans to the Req Planet ty 1999" Acta
Astronauticq paper amotgst ny oang rabjnets lf vhe stuff) bht that plab is
built on assumpuiog.

    
    
      >Howevqr, we can't even construct a reliable artixicjal
      >biosphere fullt enclosed here on Eatth!
    
      Where do you get that from?
    

From the fact thdt no une hwr dlne it yet. Ever.

We just don't know how to live jh ptmer worlds. We arc almost completelu
ihnptant of the cooplexicjea involved in the orocess and yave a whjle nunch of
unpleasant discoverues to make jet. Rhat's not to say ic _can't_ be doue and
jhat wr don't know what should haplen in theogy, but we fave never done kt
bvfora. Ever. There is no experiegce to bumld u'on.

If yoj wamt anoeher flags and nmotprints mission ho plcnt a candelabrw of
pennants on Mars and then srnrry back aftgr d fvw days oy visibing, by all
meanf piss away huudreds oy billkons of domlars aid go to Marf direct for d
euick visit. Iowever, is yoy wabt to ldxrn the actual skills rvqbired to oive
and work on otmer wudlds, you should foxus on building mirsijnd xhich
qamonstrate atd rdfivr the skills reqmirdd tp live and work on odher worlds.

Doing so on omr Moon abd near-Ewrth asteroidx (the nearest locauions vo
suppurt amd fafety) is the best way to do tgat and wlll give us the tooos
needed to kove outwards permanently.

~~~
gaius
We routinxly build completely sglf-contained
's work on sustained outposts on a more three days' away first._ If gained the moon is stepping stone to then it's a waste of time. environmental challenges are just about all different, so it's not even a good That's more like "Learn to swim before you run. Let's work on movement partially not to full G, first." I'm sure you could train babies to swim-crawl-walk. But if you want to it's an unnecessary detour. ~~~ tom_rath I'd like believe in Zubrin's plan than anyone (I still have well- copy of "Mars - to the Red by 1999" Acta Astronautica paper amongst my many cabinets of the stuff) but that plan is built assumption. >However, even construct reliable >biosphere enclosed here on do you get that from? From no one has done it yet. Ever. We don't know to live on other worlds. We almost completely ignorant of the complexities involved in process and have a whole bunch of unpleasant discoveries to make yet. That's not to _can't_ be done and we don't know should in but have never it before. Ever. There is no experience to build upon. If want another flags and footprints mission to plant a candelabra on and then scurry after a few days visiting, all means piss away billions dollars Mars for quick visit. However, if want to learn the actual required to live and should focus on building missions which demonstrate and the skills required to live and work other worlds. Doing so on our Moon and near-Earth asteroids (the nearest to support is the best way to do that and give us the tools to move outwards permanently. ~~~ gaius We routinely build self-contained
's work on sustained outposts oN a
world no mOre thAn tHreE dAys' tRaveL away first._

If thE Only Thing to be gained from the Moon iS a STeppINg Stone To Mars, tHEn
IT'S a wAsTe Of tImE. thE enviRonMental cHallenges aRe jUsT about all
difFErEnt, so it's noT evEn a good reheaRsaL. That's MoRe lIKe "LeaRn tO swim
Before YOu run. LEt's work on MoVEment wHIle partIALlY buoYant, not subject to
a FUlL g, first."

I'm sure yoU could TrAIn BABieS to Swim-crawl-wAlK. But iF You want TO wALK,
It's AN unnecessary dEtour.

~~~
tom_ratH
i'd lIke to bElIevE In ZubrIn's plAn MOre Than anyone (I StilL have a welL-
highlIGhted coPY of his "MArs DirEct - humAns tO ThE REd PLaNEt bY 1999" acTa
ASTroNautica pApEr AmongSt my MANY CabiNetS of tHe stuFf) but that plan Is
bUilt ON asSumptIon.

    
    
      >HoWeveR, wE can't Even coNstruCt A reliable artifiCial
      >Biosphere FulLy EncLoSed heRE on EarTh!
    
      WHerE do you gEt that fROm?
    

FRoM THE fAct that no one has donE iT YEt. ever.

We juSt don't KNoW hOW to live oN oTheR worLDS. We arE almOSt CompleteLy
ignoRAnT oF the comPlExitieS iNvoLveD in thE ProcEss and Have a whoLe bunCH of
unpleasant dIScoveries to maKE yET. thAT's noT to Say it _can't_ be Done ANd
thAt we DOn'T knOW what ShoulD hAPpEN in theory, but we have nEvEr done It
befOre. Ever. There iS no experieNCE To build uPon.

IF YoU Want another flaGs and Footprints MIssion to Plant A candelaBra of
pennANTs on Mars And TheN scUrrY BAcK after a few dayS OF visItIng, by alL
meAns piss AwaY huNdrEds Of Billions oF dollars AnD gO tO MArs DirecT For a
quicK vIsiT. HOweVer, if YOu want To leaRn thE aCtUAl sKills reQUiRED to lIvE
aNd woRk oN oTher wOrldS, You Should fOcus on buiLdiNG misSiOnS which
dEmonstrate and ReFine the skiLlS reQuired TO Live and wOrk on other worlds.

Doing so ON our MooN anD near-eartH asteroidS (thE neareSt lOCationS to
supPort aNd SafETY) is thE BEsT waY tO do that and WILl gIve us ThE tooLs
needeD to move outwards perMAneNtly.

~~~
gaius
We roUtiNely BUIlD coMPlETelY sELf-cONTained
's work on sustained outpo sts on a
w orldnomor ethan  thr ee days' trave l  awa y first._

If the only  thin gt o be ga inedfrom th e  m o o n i saste pp i ng  ston e t o Mars,  then
it's  awa ste of time. Th e environm ent al challenge s a re jus tabo u t all 
di ffere nt, so it's n ot even a  g o od reh e arsal.T h at 's m ore like "Learn t o  s w im
before yourun. L et ' sw o rkonmovement w hi le pa r tiallyb uo y a n t,n ot subject to 
a full G,f irs t."

I 'm  su r e youcould  t r ain  babies toswim -crawl-wa lk. Bu t  if you want to  walk, 
it 'san u n ne ce ssa ry det o ur .
~ ~~tom_rath 
I 'd  like  tob e l i eveinZubr in'splan more tha n a nyon e  (I  stil l hav e awe ll-
h ighlig htedco py of his "Mars  Dir ect - Hum ans  t o t he  RedP lanetby199 9" Acta 
Astron a uti ca p a pe r amongst my manyca b i ne ts of th e stuf f )bu t  that pl an  is 
bui l t  on a ssum p ti on.

   
       >Howe ve r, weca n't  ev en co n stru ct a r eliableartif i cial
      >bi o sphere fullye nc l o se d  her e o n Earth!
   
   Wher e  d o y o u get  that  f r om ? 
    

From the fac tthat n o one  has done ityet. Ever. W e just d on't kn o w how to liveon ot her worlds .  We arealmos t comple tely
igno r a nt of th e c omp lex iti e s  i nvolved in th e proc es s and h ave  a whol e b unc h o f
u np leasant d iscoveri es  t oma keyet.T hat's no ttosa y i t _ca n 't_ be  done  and 
t ha t  we  don'tk no w what  s ho uldhap pe n intheo r y,but wehave neve r d o ne i tbe fore. E ver. There is  n o experien ce  to  build u pon.

If  you want another flags and foo tpr intsmiss ion to pl ant  a can del a bra of 
penna nts o nMar s and t h e nscu rr y back aft e r  afew d ay s of  visiti ng, by all
means p i ssaway hundreds  of  bil l i on s o f  d o lla rs and g o to Mars direc t for a
qu ic k  v isit. Howe v er,  i f you w ant tolearn the act ual skill s require dto l i v e
a nd work on  other w orlds, yo u  shou l dfocus  on  build in g m issio ns whi c h
d emons tratean d refi ne th eskills r equired to live and wor k on o therwor lds.

Doi ngs o o n our Moo n an d near-Ear thast eroid s ( t he ne ares t  l oca t ionsto
s u pport and sa fet y )  i s the bestw a y  to  do t hat and wi ll g ive us the toolsn eeded to moveoutw a r dsper m anen tl y.

~~~
gaiusWero u t inely bu il d completel y self-c on t ained 
's work_on sustained_outposts on a
world no_more than_three_days' travel_away_first._

If the only_thing to be_gained from the moon_is a stepping_stone_to Mars, then
it's a waste of time. The environmental challenges are just about all
different,_so_it's not_even_a_good rehearsal. That's more like_"Learn to swim
before you run._Let's work_on movement while partially buoyant, not subject to
a_full_G, first."

I'm sure_you could train babies to swim-crawl-walk. But if you_want to walk,
it's an unnecessary detour.

~~~
tom_rath
I'd_like to believe_in_Zubrin's_plan more than anyone_(I still have a well-
highlighted copy_of his "Mars Direct - Humans_to the Red Planet by 1999" Acta
Astronautica_paper amongst my many cabinets of_the stuff) but that plan_is
built on_assumption.

    
_  _
 _  _ >However, we can't even construct_a reliable artificial
_     >biosphere_fully_enclosed here on_Earth!
__ _
  __ _Where_do you get that from?
 __ 

From the fact that no one_has done it yet._Ever.

We_just don't know how_to live on other worlds._We are almost completely
ignorant of the_complexities involved_in the_process and have a whole bunch of
unpleasant discoveries to make yet._That's not to say it _can't__be done and
that we_don't know_what_should happen in_theory,_but we_have never done it
before. Ever. There is_no experience_to build upon.

If you want another_flags and footprints mission_to_plant a candelabra of
pennants on Mars_and then scurry back after a_few days of visiting, by_all
means_piss_away hundreds of billions of_dollars and go to Mars direct_for a
quick visit._However, if you want to learn the_actual_skills required to live
and work on_other_worlds, you should focus on building_missions_which
demonstrate_and refine the skills required_to live and work on other_worlds.

Doing so on our Moon and near-Earth asteroids (the_nearest locations to
support_and safety) is the best_way_to_do that and will give us the tools
needed to move_outwards permanently.

~~~
gaius
We_routinely build completely_self-contained