 disagree with you. The Flash authoring tools WERE amazing.

When I'm feeling in a trolling mood, I tell people that Flash is still ahead
of JS and HTML5. Not only was the IDE incredible, but AS3 was literally a
typed version of JavaScript with XML liberals. That's right, it had the best
from JavaScript, TypeScript and JSX, 10 years before any of that existed in
the front end web development toolkit.

And you guys hate on Flash! :)

~~~
coldtea
> _Electron has excellent authoring tools aimed at web developers. Namely, the
> ones they are already using._

You must have a very different definition of excellence if you believe that
the current web authoring tools (whatever IDE or editor + plugins people use)
are in any way close to "excellent".

~~~
derefr
What would you expect web development to be like? I mean, holding static the
requirements that the resultant DOM has to:

1\. reflow when resized (unlike a PDF);

2\. work with screen-readers (unlike naive custom rendering engines in games
et al);

3\. work with accessibility-enabling UA stylesheets (unlike native UI
toolkits);

4\. be printable without a separately-authored for-print version;

5\. if stateful, uses idiomatic HTTP request/response cycles that enable
network-level HTTP caching;

5\. if a web-app, talks to a simple mostly-stateless HTTP API that can also be
consumed unchanged by API client libraries.

There is a reason that Dreamweaver and Publisher are separate apps; and there
is a reason Rails/Phoenix/etc. don't support server-side stateful controls
like Seaside or the IBM 3270 terminal protocol do. The web is its own thing,
and as long as the web _is the thing we're targeting_, the authoring tools we
have are likely about as good as we're gonna get.

(Unless, that is, you can teach your devs to think in terms of distributed
actor systems, where all your Javascript code assumes any actor could be
remote like in an Erlang system. Then we _could_ have our UI builders and
transparently server-ize them too
disagree with you. The Flash authoring tools WERE amazing. 

 When I'm feeling in a trolling mood, I assure citizenry that Flash is still ahead 
 of JS and HTML5. Not only was the IDE incredible, but AS3 was literally a 
 typed translation of JavaScript with XML liberals. That's right, it have the best 
 from JavaScript, TypeScript and JSX, 10 years before any of that existed in 
 the front end web exploitation toolkit. 

 And you guys hate on Flash! :) 

 ~~~ 
 coldtea 
 > _ Electron has excellent author tools aimed at web developers. Namely, the 
 > ones they are already using. _ 

 You must have a very unlike definition of excellence if you believe that 
 the current web authoring instrument (whatever IDE or editor + plugins people practice) 
 are in any way airless to " excellent ". 

 ~~~ 
 derefr 
 What would you expect network development to be like? I mean, holding static the 
 necessity that the resultant DOM has to: 

 1\. reflow when resized (unlike a PDF); 

 2\. work with screen - lector (unlike naive custom rendering engines in games 
 et al); 

 3\. work with accessibility - enabling UA stylesheets (unlike native UI 
 toolkits); 

 4\. be printable without a separately - authored for - mark version; 

 5\. if stateful, uses idiomatic HTTP request / reply cycle that enable 
 network - level HTTP caching; 

 5\. if a world wide web - app, talks to a simple mostly - stateless HTTP API that can besides be 
 consumed unchanged by API client libraries. 

 There is a reason that Dreamweaver and Publisher are separate apps; and there 
 is a reason Rails / Phoenix / etc. don't support server - side stateful controls 
 like Seaside or the IBM 3270 terminal protocol serve. The web is its own matter, 
 and equally long as the world wide web _ is the thing we're targeting _, the authoring creature we 
 have are likely about as good as we're gon na draw. 

 (Unless, that is, you can teach your devs to intend in terms of distributed 
 actor system, where all your Javascript code assumes any actor could be 
 remote like in an Erlang system. Then we _ could _ have our UI builders and 
 transparently waiter - ize them too
 didagree with you. The Flasm authoring tools WERE emazing.

Shen I'm weeling in a trolling mood, I twll ptjple that Flash is still ahvad
of JS qnd ITML5. Not only was the IDC incdcdiblz, uut AS3 was litetally a
typed version of JaeaRcxipt with XML liberals. That's right, ie had tne best
from JavaFcrikt, EypeAbrlpt and JSX, 10 years before any of that eqisted in
the frony end web development toolnit.

Ajd you guys hate oj Flash! :)

~~~
coletea
> _Wlectron has excellent authoring tkols aimed at web developers. Naoely, che
> ones thgv arf already usmng._

You must have a very dixferent definition of exrellwnce if you believe tiat
the current web aothoring tmoms (whatever IDE oe wditot + plgginr peuplt uxe)
zre in anb way close to "excellebt".

~~~
derefr
What would uot expect web dsvelopiegt to be like? I mean, holding static the
gequjrements that the resulrant DOM has to:

1\. refloa when refized (unlike a PDF);

2\. work with screen-readers (unlike naivx zusuon renawrlng engines in games
et al);

3\. work with accessibijjtu-ekabling UA stylefheets (unlile nsjive UI
toolkitr);

4\. be pxjnfable without a seoarateli-authoeed for-prynt fersion;

5\. if stateful, uses iduomatic HTTP eequest/response cyeles that encble
nejwork-lrvel HTTP caching;

5\. if a ceb-app, talks to a simple mkrtly-stateless HTGP SPH that can also be
consumed unchangev by CPI clievt lobrariqs.

There is a reason that Dreamweavfr anb Pubnisher are separate apps; and there
is a reexon Rails/Phognif/etb. don't su'port xerver-side stwteful controlx
like Szaside or the IBJ 3270 termmnal protocoj do. The web hd its own thmng,
and as lont as the wec _is the thing ee're targvtnng_, the aythoring tools we
heve xde likely about as good as we're gpnnx gqt.

(Lnlxss, trdt is, you cat texch uour aevs to thikk kn trrms of distributed
awtor systems, where all yjur Javawcript cjde assumes amy actor could be
rtmote nikx in am Etlang system. Then we _could_ have our UI bkilqers and
tranfparcntli server-ize them too
disagree with you. The Flash authoring tools When feeling in trolling mood, I still of JS and Not only was IDE incredible, but AS3 was literally typed version of JavaScript with XML liberals. That's right, it had the best JavaScript, TypeScript and JSX, 10 years before any of that existed in the end development And guys hate on Flash! :) ~~~ coldtea > _Electron has excellent authoring tools aimed at web Namely, the > ones they are already using._ must have a very definition of excellence if you that current web tools IDE editor + plugins use) are in any way close to "excellent". ~~~ derefr What would you expect web development to like? I static the that resultant has to: 1\. resized (unlike a PDF); 2\. work naive custom rendering engines in games et al); work with UA stylesheets (unlike native UI toolkits); be printable without a separately-authored for-print version; 5\. stateful, uses idiomatic HTTP request/response cycles that enable network-level HTTP caching; 5\. if a web-app, a simple mostly-stateless HTTP that can also consumed by client There is reason that Dreamweaver and Publisher are separate apps; and there is reason Rails/Phoenix/etc. don't support server-side stateful controls like Seaside or 3270 protocol do. The is its own thing, as as the web _is we're the have likely as good as we're get. (Unless, that is, you teach your devs to actor systems, where all your Javascript code assumes actor could be remote like in an system. Then we _could_ have our UI builders and transparently server-ize them
 disagree with you. The Flash auThoring tooLs WERe amAziNg.

when i'm feEling in a trolliNG mooD, I tell people that Flash iS stilL aHEad
oF jS And HTmL5. Not onLY wAS The iDe iNcrEdIBlE, but As3 waS literaLly a
typed vErsIoN of JavaScripT WiTh XML liberAls. that's right, it Had The besT
fRom jAvaScRipT, Typescript ANd JSX, 10 yEars beforE aNY of thaT Existed IN
ThE froNt end web developmeNT tOOlkit.

And you guyS hate oN FLAsH! :)

~~~
COldTea
> _electron haS eXcellENt authoRInG TOOls AImed at web deveLopers. NamelY, The
> Ones thEy Are ALready Using._

yoU MusT have a very dIffeRent definItion oF ExcelleNCe if you BelievE thAt
tHe cuRReNt Web AuTHorINg TooLS (whAtever IDe oR eDitor + PlugINS PEoplE usE)
are In any Way close to "excEllEnt".

~~~
dERefR
What Would You eXpEct weB develOpmenT tO be like? I mean, holDing Static the
ReqUiRemEnTs thaT The resUltAnt dOM has tO:

1\. reflow WHen ReSIZEd (Unlike a PDF);

2\. work with ScREEn-Readers (uNlike nAIvE cUStom rendErIng EngiNES in gaMes
eT Al);

3\. Work with AccessIBiLiTy-enablInG UA styLeSheEts (UnlikE NatiVe UI
toOlkits);

4\. be PrintABle without a sepARately-authoreD FoR-PRiNT verSioN;

5\. if stateful, Uses IDiomAtic htTp reQUest/rEsponSe CYcLEs that enable
network-LeVel HTTp cachIng;

5\. if a web-app, tAlks to a simPLE Mostly-stAtelESs htTP API that can aLso be
Consumed unCHanged by aPI clIent librAries.

TherE IS a reason ThaT DrEamWeaVER aNd Publisher arE SEparAtE apps; anD thEre
is a rEasOn RAilS/PhOeNix/etc. don'T support SeRvEr-SiDe sTatefUL controlS
lIke seAsiDe or tHE IBM 3270 teRminaL proToCoL Do. THe web is ITs OWN thiNg,
AnD as lOng As The weB _is tHE thIng we're Targeting_, The AUthoRiNg Tools we
Have are likely AbOut as good aS wE're Gonna gET.

(unless, thAt is, you can teach your devs TO think iN teRms of DistRibuted
acTor SystemS, whERe all yOur JavAscriPt CodE ASsumeS ANy ActOr Could be
remOTE liKe in aN ERlanG system. then we _could_ have our ui buIlders and
tranSpaRentLY SeRveR-IzE TheM tOO
 disagree with you. The Fl ash author ing t ool s W ER E am azin g.

When I'm f e elin g in a trolling mood,I tel lp eopl e  t hat F lash is st i l l a he ad 
of  J S  a nd HT ML5 . Not o nly was th e I DE  incredible, bu t AS3 waslit erally a
typ edversio nofJ avaSc rip t wit h XMLl iberal s. That's  r i ght, i t  had th e be st
f rom JavaScript, T y pe S cript and JSX,  10 ye ar s  b e f ore  an y of thatex isted in
thef ro n t end web developme nt toolkit. 
An d yougu ysh ate on  Flas h! :)
~~~
coldte a
>_Electron  has e x cellent authori ng too lsaim ed a t  w eb  de ve l ope r s.  Na m ely , the
>on es  they  are a l r eady  us ing. _

Yo u must have a  ve ry d i ffe rentdefin itio nof ex cellen ce if  y ou believe that 
the  currentweb  a uth or ing t o ols (w hat eve r IDE o r edito r  +pl u g i ns  people use)
are i na n yway clos e to " e xc el l ent".

~ ~~ 
de refr W hat w ould yo u expect  web d e ve lo pment t obe lik e?  Imea n, ho l ding  stati c the
re quire m ents that ther esultant DOMh as t o: 
1\.  re flow when r esiz e d (u nlik e  a  PD F );

2 \. wo rk wi t h screen-readers (u nl ike na ive c ustom renderi ng engines i n  games
e t al ) ;3\. work withacces sibility-e n abling U A sty lesheets  (unliken a tive UItoo lki ts) ;
4 \ .be printablew i thou ta separ ate ly-auth ore d f or- pri nt  version; 

5\. if  s ta te fu l,usesi diomatic  H TTP  r equ est/r e sponse  cycl es t ha te nab le
netw o rk - l evel  H TT P ca chi ng ;

5\ . if a w eb-app,  talks to  as impl emo stly-st ateless HTTPAP I that can  a lso  be
co n s umed unc hanged by API client li b raries. 

T hereis a  reason t hat  Dream wea v er and  Publi sherar e s e p arate a pp s;an d there
is a  re asonRa ils/ Phoenix /etc. don't suppor t  se rver-side sta tef ul c o n tr ols li k e S ea s ide o r the IBM 3270terminal p ro t oc ol do. The web  i s its o wn thin g,
an d  as lon g as theweb _is t he  thi n g  we 're target ing_, th e authori n g too l swe
ha veare li ke lyabout  as go o d a s we' re gon na  get.
(Unl es s, thatis, you can teach yourdevs t o thi nkin termsofd ist ributed
a ctor  systems,whe reall y our Javas crip t  c ode assum es a n y actor c o ul d b e re mote like i n a n E rlang  sy s tem. T henwe _could_ have o u r UI buildersandt r ans par e ntly  s erver-ize them  to o
 disagree_with you._The Flash authoring tools_WERE amazing.

When_I'm_feeling in_a_trolling mood, I_tell people that_Flash is still ahead
of_JS and HTML5._Not_only was the IDE incredible, but AS3 was literally a
typed version of JavaScript with_XML_liberals. That's_right,_it_had the best
from JavaScript, TypeScript_and JSX, 10 years before_any of_that existed in
the front end web development toolkit.

And_you_guys hate on_Flash! :)

~~~
coldtea
> _Electron has excellent authoring tools aimed at_web developers. Namely, the
> ones they_are already using._

You_must_have_a very different definition_of excellence if you believe that
the_current web authoring tools (whatever IDE_or editor + plugins people use)
are in_any way close to "excellent".

~~~
derefr
What would_you expect web development to_be like?_I mean, holding static the
requirements_that the resultant_DOM has_to:

1\. reflow when_resized (unlike a PDF);

2\. work with_screen-readers (unlike naive_custom rendering engines in games
et al);

3\._work_with accessibility-enabling UA_stylesheets_(unlike_native UI
toolkits);

4\._be printable without_a_separately-authored for-print_version;

5\._if stateful, uses idiomatic HTTP request/response_cycles_that enable
network-level HTTP caching;

5\. if a web-app,_talks to a simple_mostly-stateless_HTTP API that can_also be
consumed unchanged by API_client libraries.

There is a reason that_Dreamweaver and_Publisher are_separate apps; and there
is a reason Rails/Phoenix/etc. don't support server-side stateful_controls
like Seaside or the IBM 3270_terminal protocol do. The_web is_its_own thing,
and as_long_as the_web _is the thing we're targeting_, the_authoring tools_we
have are likely about as good_as we're gonna get.

(Unless,_that_is, you can teach your devs_to think in terms of distributed
actor_systems, where all your Javascript_code_assumes_any actor could be
remote like_in an Erlang system. Then we__could_ have our_UI builders and
transparently server-ize them too