 up a
bad smoking habit. Acceptable for early explorers and initial colonists, and
actually an argument for settling Mars as soon as possible. (Many people
already know these risks, and they _still_ want to go! Once you have a native
workforce living up there with a local infrastructure, the risks are minimized
because the resources for shielding form radiation are also more available.)

 _We are not going to mars anytime soon. Even a colony on the moon is not
possible right now. We would either need to send people on once only short
term construction trips, or some sort of robotic construction to make a shield
first. Or a biological protectant of some kind._

Again nonsense. You can build bricks and masonry arches out of local Martian
materials. Ship a "vault-laying" robot up there, and you can create lots of
living space quickly. Bury it in soil, and you get the physical support to
pressurize those environments as well as radiation shielding.

(You can't do the same trick on the Moon, because you need lots of _water_ to
make bricks. Far less of it on the Moon, and easily extracted concentrations
of it are probably only at the poles. To build weight-pressurized compressive
structures on the Moon, you're going to have to make silica blocks. A lot more
energy intensive and expensive, with high temperature handling of materials.
Smelting aluminum? Fuggedaboudit!)

Also, the radiation question is actually an argument for Mars over the Moon.
Mars has an atmosphere that reduces the radiation load of humans walking
outside. In fact, this is another reason why lunar industry should be
established _from Mars_ with teleoperated robots controlled form Earth.

~~~
ars
The environment ON mars is better than the moon, sure. But getting there is
still a problem. I don't think you are right about the lethality rate for Mars
transit. That is simply not what all those articles I linked to said.

The reason the high energy particles are more of a problem is because it's
harder to shield from them. Especially without the shielding becoming a
problem in and off itself. Which is more or less what you said. So you agree
that hiding during solar storms is not enough.

I have no arguments about water working just fine as shielding. I think it
up a 
 bad smoking habit. Acceptable for early explorer and initial settler, and 
 actually an argument for settling Mars equally soon as possible. (Many multitude 
 already know these risks, and they _ however _ want to go! Once you suffer a native 
 workforce living up there with a local infrastructure, the risk are minimized 
 because the resources for harbor mannequin radiation are also more available .) 

  _ We are not going to mars anytime soon. Even a colony on the moon is not 
 potential right now. We would either need to transport people on once only inadequate 
 term structure trips, or some kind of robotic construction to make a shield 
 foremost. Or a biological protectant of some kind. _ 

 Again nonsense. You can build bricks and masonry arches out of local Martian 
 materials. Ship a " vault - laying " robot up there, and you can create lots of 
 living space quickly. Bury it in soil, and you get the physical documentation to 
 pressurize those environments equally well as radiation sickness shielding. 

 (You can't dress the same trick on the Moon, because you necessitate lots of _ water _ to 
 make bricks. Far less of it on the Moon, and well extracted concentrations 
 of it are probably only at the poles. To build weight - pressurized compressive 
 structures on the Moon, you're going to have to make silica blockage. A bunch more 
 energy intensive and expensive, with high temperature handling of materials. 
 Smelting aluminum? Fuggedaboudit !) 

 Also, the radiation sickness question is actually an argument for Mars over the Moon. 
 Mars has an standard atmosphere that reduces the radiation load of humans walk 
 outside. In fact, this is another reason why lunar industry should be 
 established _ from Mars _ with teleoperated robots controlled kind Earth. 

 ~~~ 
 ars 
 The environment ON mars is good than the moon, certain. But getting there is 
 even a problem. I don't intend you are right about the lethality rate for Mars 
 transit. That is simply not what all those articles I linked to said. 

 The reason the eminent energy particles are more of a trouble is because it's 
 harder to shield from them. Especially without the shielding becoming a 
 problem in and off itself. Which is more or less what you said. So you harmonize 
 that hiding during solar storms is not enough. 

 I have no arguments about water work barely very well as shielding. I think it
 up a
bad smoking habit. Accektable for early gxplorerv and jnitial zolonists, and
actually an argnmenr for settling Mars as soon as possihle. (Many peokle
already know tisse risks, and bhey _vvill_ want to go! Once you vave a native
wmryflrce living up there with a local igfrastrichure, the risks are iinijpztd
because the resources for shielsing fogm radiation are slso more available.)

 _We are not going to mars anyhime soon. Ecen w colony on tfe moon is not
possible right now. We would either need to sznd people in onfg only short
verm cjnstruction bgips, or some sprt of robotic coistryction to make a shiend
first. Or a biolodical prodeetant of some kind._

Agaun nonsgnse. Fou zqn cuimd bdicks wnd masonry adches out od local Martian
matetiwos. Ship a "vaumt-layigg" robot up there, and you can create lots of
miving space quickly. Buey it in soil, and you get the [hysical support to
pressurize those environments ds wemu aw vadixriln shielding.

(You can't do the same trick on the Jopn, because you nced lots of _water_ yo
lalg bricks. Far lgss of nf kn the Moon, and eadily exjractee concentwatipns
of it are probably only qt the poles. Ro build weight-predsurized cooprexsive
xtructures on the Moon, vou're foing to hage to maks silica blocks. A lon mose
energy intensive and expqnsive, wivh hiyh tempefatute handjing of maherials.
Smelting aluminum? Fugggdabougit!)

Also, thf radiation question is actuallb an argument fmr Kars ovex the Koon.
Mars has wn atmosphere jhat reduees thd radiatioh load mf humans wwlking
outside. Ln fact, this is anotrer eeasin why ujnar industry xhould be
vsuablished _drom Mars_ with telcoperxfed robots contxuoled form Earth.

~~~
srs
Ghe ejvmronmqtt ON mars iv begtef than the moon, smre. But getting there is
stinl a problem. I don't thonh you arg right afout the lethslity rate for Mard
tranvit. That is simply not what all those artjcles I llnkcd to said.

The reawon the high energy particles are more of a problem is because it's
hatder to shield from tkek. Especiallb withjut the svielding becoming a
peoblem in and off itself. Which is more or levs whwt you said. So you agree
that hiding during solar storms is not enough.

I hace no erduments aboht wster foxkiug just finx es shielding. I thpnk it
up a bad smoking habit. Acceptable for and colonists, and an argument for possible. people already know risks, and they want to go! Once you have native workforce living up there with a local infrastructure, the risks are minimized the resources for shielding form radiation are also more available.) _We are not to anytime Even colony on the moon is not possible right now. We would either need to send people once only short term construction trips, or some of robotic construction to a shield first. Or a protectant some kind._ nonsense. can bricks and masonry out of local Martian materials. Ship a "vault-laying" robot up there, and you can create lots of space quickly. in soil, you the support to pressurize as well as radiation shielding. (You same trick on the Moon, because you need of _water_ make bricks. Far less of it the Moon, and easily extracted concentrations of it probably only at the poles. To build weight-pressurized compressive structures on the Moon, you're going to make silica blocks. lot more energy and with temperature of materials. aluminum? Fuggedaboudit!) Also, the radiation question is actually an argument for over the Moon. Mars has an atmosphere that reduces the of walking outside. In this is another reason lunar should be established _from teleoperated controlled ars environment mars is better than moon, sure. But getting there still a problem. I about the lethality rate for Mars transit. That simply not what all those articles I to said. The reason the high energy particles are more of a is because to shield from them. Especially without the shielding a problem in and itself. Which is more or less what you said. you that hiding solar storms is enough. I have arguments about water fine as I it
 up a
bad smoking habit. AcceptaBle for earlY explOreRs aNd InitIal cOlonists, and
actUAlly An argument for settling MArs as SoON as pOSsIble. (MAny peopLE
aLREadY kNoW thEsE RiSks, anD thEy _still_ Want to go! OnCe yOu Have a native
wORkForce livinG up There with a loCal InfrasTrUctURe, the RisKs are MinimiZEd
becaUse the resOuRCes for SHieldinG FOrM radIation are also more AVaILable.)

 _We are not gOing to MaRS aNYTimE soOn. Even a colOnY on thE Moon is nOT
pOSSIblE Right now. We wouLd either neeD To sEnd peoPlE on ONce onlY shorT
tERm cOnstruction TripS, or some soRt of roBOtic conSTructioN to makE a sHieLd
fiRSt. or A biOlOGicAL pRotECtaNt of some KiNd._

again NonsENSE. you cAn bUild BrickS and masonry arCheS out OF loCal MaRtian
MateRiAls. ShIp a "vauLt-layInG" robot up there, anD you Can create LotS oF
liViNg spaCE quickLy. BUry It in soiL, and you GEt tHe PHYSiCal support to
pressuRiZE ThOse envirOnmentS As WeLL as radiaTiOn sHielDINg.

(You Can't DO tHe same trIck on tHE MOoN, becausE yOu need LoTs oF _waTer_ to
MAke bRicks. FAr less of It on tHE Moon, and easily EXtracted conceNTrATIoNS
of iT arE probably onLy at THe poLes. TO BuIld WEight-PressUrIZeD Compressive
structurEs On the MOon, yoU're going to havE to make silICA Blocks. A lOt moRE
eNErgy intensive aNd expEnsive, with HIgh tempeRaturE handlinG of materiALS.
SmeltinG alUmiNum? fugGEDaBoudit!)

Also, the RADiatIoN questiOn iS actualLy aN arGumEnt FoR Mars over The Moon.
MArS hAs An AtmOspheRE that redUcEs tHe RadIatioN Load of HumanS walKiNg
OUtsIde. In faCT, tHIS is aNoThEr reAsoN wHy lunAr inDUstRy shoulD be
establIshED _froM MArS_ with teLeoperated robOtS controlleD fOrm earth.

~~~
aRS
the envirOnment ON mars is better thaN The moon, SurE. But gEttiNg there is
StiLl a proBleM. i don't tHink yoU are rIgHt aBOUt the LEThAliTy Rate for MarS
TRanSit. ThAt Is siMply not What all those articlES I lInked to said.

ThE reAson THE hIgh ENeRGy pArTIclES Are more of a problEm is becausE iT'S
hArder to shiELd fRoM them. EsPeciallY withOUt the shIelding beComing a
prObLem iN ANd oFf itself. WhIch is morE or less whAT you sAId. so you AgrEe
that HiDinG duriNg solaR StoRms is Not enoUgH.

I have No argUmEnts abouT water working just fine as ShieldIng. I tHinK it
 up a
bad smoking habit. A cceptablefor e arl y e xp lore rs a nd initial col o nist s, and
actually an arg ument  f o r se t tl ing M ars ass oo n aspo ss ibl e. (M any p eop le
alre ady know t hes erisks, and t h ey  _still_ w ant  to go! Once  yo u have  a  na t ive
w ork force  livin g  up th ere withal ocal i n frastru c t ur e, t he risks are mini m iz e d
because theresour ce s  f o r  sh iel ding formra diati o n are a l so m o rea vailable.)

_We are not goi ng toma rsa nytime  soon .E ven  a colony o n th e moon is  not
p o ssibler ight no w. Wewou ldeith e rne edto sen d  p eop l e o n once o nl yshort 
ter m c o nstr uct iontrips , or some sor t o f ro b oti c con struc tion  t o mak e a sh ieldfi rst. Or a biolo gica l protect ant  o f s om e kin d ._

Ag ain  no nsense.  You ca n  bu il d b ri cks and masonry ar ch e s  o ut of lo cal Ma r ti an material s.  Sh ip a " vault -lay i ng " robotup the r e,  a nd youca n crea te  lo tsof
li v ingspacequickly.  Bury it in soil, an d  you get thep hy s i ca l  sup por t to
pressu rize thos e en v ir onm e nts a s wel la sr adiation shielding. 
(You c an'tdo the same t rick on th e M oon, bec ause yo u  need lots of_wate r_ to
make bricks.Far l ess of i t on theM o on, andeas ily  ex tra c t ed  concentratio n s 
ofit  are pr oba bly onl y a t t hepol es . To buil d weight -p re ss ur ize d com p ressivest ruc tu res  on t h e Moon , you 'rego in g  to  have t o  m a k e si li ca  blo cks .A lot  mor e 
en ergy in tensive a nde xpen si ve , withhigh temperat ur e handling  o f m ateria l s .
Smelti ng aluminum? Fuggedabou d it!)

A lso , the  rad iation qu est ion is  ac t uallyan arg ument  f orM a rs ov e r  t heMo on.
Mars h a s  an  atmo sp here  that r educes the radiati o n l oad of humans  wa lkin g ou tsi d e. Infa c t,t h is is another r eason whylu n ar  industrys hou ld  be
est ablishe d _fr o m Mars_  with tel eoperated  r obot s con trolled fo rm Earth .

~~~
ar s 
Thee nv ironm ent  ON ma rs  is  bett er tha n  th e moo n, sur e.  But g ettin gthere is 
still a problem. I don 't thi nk yo u a re rightabo u t t he lethal ityrate for M ars 
tr ansit . T h at is  sim p ly  no t  what  all those art i cl esI li nked to sai d . 
Th e rea son the hi gh e nergy particles a r e more of a pr oble m isbec a useit 's
harder to s hie ld f rom them .Especiallywithoutth e  shie ldingbecomi ng a
pr o b le m  in an d of f i tself. Wh ich  i s  more o rle s s what  you  s aid. S o youa gree t hat hiding durin g sol a r  stor m s i s not  e nough.I ha ve no argu ments about  water  wor kingjust fi ne  as sh iel di ng. I thin k  it
 up_a
bad smoking_habit. Acceptable for early_explorers and_initial_colonists, and
actually_an_argument for settling_Mars as soon_as possible. (Many people
already_know these risks,_and_they _still_ want to go! Once you have a native
workforce living up there with_a_local infrastructure,_the_risks_are minimized
because the resources for_shielding form radiation are also_more available.)

__We are not going to mars anytime soon._Even_a colony on_the moon is not
possible right now. We would either_need to send people on once_only short
term construction_trips,_or_some sort of robotic_construction to make a shield
first. Or_a biological protectant of some kind._

Again_nonsense. You can build bricks and masonry_arches out of local Martian
materials. Ship_a "vault-laying" robot up there,_and you_can create lots of
living space_quickly. Bury it_in soil,_and you get_the physical support to
pressurize those environments_as well as_radiation shielding.

(You can't do the same_trick_on the Moon,_because_you_need lots_of _water_ to
make_bricks._Far less_of_it on the Moon, and easily_extracted_concentrations
of it are probably only at the_poles. To build weight-pressurized_compressive
structures_on the Moon, you're_going to have to make_silica blocks. A lot more
energy intensive_and expensive,_with high_temperature handling of materials.
Smelting aluminum? Fuggedaboudit!)

Also, the radiation question is actually_an argument for Mars over the_Moon.
Mars has an atmosphere_that reduces_the_radiation load of_humans_walking
outside. In_fact, this is another reason why lunar_industry should_be
established _from Mars_ with teleoperated robots_controlled form Earth.

~~~
ars
The environment_ON_mars is better than the moon,_sure. But getting there is
still a_problem. I don't think you_are_right_about the lethality rate for_Mars
transit. That is simply not what_all those articles_I linked to said.

The reason the high_energy_particles are more of a problem_is_because it's
harder to shield from them._Especially_without_the shielding becoming a
problem in_and off itself. Which is more_or less what you said. So you agree
that hiding_during solar storms_is not enough.

I have no_arguments_about_water working just fine as shielding. I think it