self you would still feel miffed that you were not given a larger
discount.

I admit my example doesn't have very realistic numbers.

~~~
kasey_junk
I think he pretty clearly comes down against false advertising and giving up
your fiduciary duty to your clients. Those are the real issues in the court
case.

His main point, and one that seems to be missing in most articles about dark
pools, hft, etc. is that buy side investors are as sophisticated (or should be
if they are to get away with charging their crazy management fees) as sell
side participants. The whole reason they have high paying finance jobs is to
provide to their clients the service of making sure they are getting the best
execution they can.

------
mindcrime
Strangely enough, I had never heard of a "darkpool" until today. I bought
_Flash Boys_ at the airport bookstore earlier, and read it on the plane just
now. And tonight I find a reference to darkpools on the HN front-page. Hmmm.
Truth really is stranger than fiction sometimes.

Anyway, FWIW, if anybody here hasn't read _Flash Boys_ by Michael Lewis, it's
a pretty interesting read that covers some ground related to the content of
this article: HFT, dark-pools, etc. I understand that it's not without some
controversy, but I found it damn interesting all the same.

~~~
kasey_junk
As someone who has worked in the industry, Flash Boys is literally the worst
intro you could find into electronic trading. Dark Pools by Scott Patterson is
much, much better (and even it gets basic facts incorrect).

~~~
azmenthe
Agreed, as someone who worked in HFT and thus has a positive bias towards it,
I found Dark Pools to be an extremely informative and factual historical
account of the industry even if the author's opinions disagree with mine.

Flash Boys however I can't even get through because the author backs an
extremist negative position with completely incorrect facts. I fill with
seething rage every time I realize how much more public exposure Flash Boys
gets.

~~~
kasey_junk
I wouldn't say he backs an extremist negative position. In fact, if you read
carefully,
self you would still feel miffed that you were not given a large 
 deduction. 

 I admit my example doesn't have very naturalistic numbers. 

 ~~~ 
 kasey_junk 
 I think he pretty intelligibly comes down against false ad and give up 
 your fiduciary duty to your clients. Those are the veridical issues in the court 
 shell. 

 His main point, and one that seems to be missing in most articles about black 
 pools, hft, etc. is that buy side investor are as sophisticated (or should be 
 if they are to induce off with charging their brainsick management fees) as sell 
 side participants. The hale reason they have high paying finance jobs is to 
 provide to their node the service of making sure they are getting the best 
 execution they can. 

 ------ 
 mindcrime 
 Strangely enough, I had never heard of a " darkpool " until today. I bought 
 _ Flash Boys _ at the airport bookstore sooner, and read it on the plane barely 
 now. And tonight I find a reference to darkpools on the HN front - page. Hmmm. 
 Truth in truth is stranger than fiction sometimes. 

 Anyway, FWIW, if anybody here hasn't read _ Flash Boys _ by Michael Lewis, it's 
 a reasonably interesting read that covers some ground related to the content of 
 this article: HFT, dark - pools, etc. I understand that it's not without some 
 controversy, but I found it damn interesting all the same. 

 ~~~ 
 kasey_junk 
 As someone who has worked in the industry, Flash Boys is literally the bad 
 presentation you could rule into electronic trading. Dark Pools by Scott Patterson is 
 much, much better (and even it gets basic fact incorrect). 

 ~~~ 
 azmenthe 
 Agreed, as someone who worked in HFT and thus take a plus bias towards it, 
 I found Dark Pools to be an highly informative and factual historical 
 account of the industry even if the writer's opinions disagree with mine. 

 Flash Boys however I can't even perplex through because the author backs an 
 extremist damaging position with completely faulty facts. I satiate with 
 seething rage every time I realize how much more public exposure Flash Boys 
 gets. 

 ~~~ 
 kasey_junk 
 I wouldn't say he backs an extremist damaging position. In fact, if you read 
 cautiously,
selv you would still feel mlffed that you wgrw not jiven a larger
dkscount.

I admit my example doxsn't have very realistic numberr.

~~~
kasey_junn
I think he kretty clearly comes down againab falvx advertising akd giving u[
your fiduciarf aucy to your clients. Those are the reaj issuex ln the court
cafe.

Hix maih point, and one that seems to be mjssing pn most articles sbout dark
pools, hft, etc. is thah buy side investogs are as siphifricated (or sfould be
if they are to get away with charging their cfazy kanagement fwes) ds sell
side partpcipants. The whole redson thry have high psyiig funance jobs is to
provmde to their clients the servhcz of making sure they aee gejting the vesg
extcuvioh they cai.

------
mindcrime
Sfrangely eniugh, I had never hesrq of a "darkpoom" untij eoday. I bought
_Flash Boys_ at the airport bokkstore earlier, and reae it on the plane jusj
now. And tjnight I find a reference to darkpools on the HN xront-'aee. Knmm.
Trjrh really is stranger than fiction sometimes.

Anyrzy, FEIW, if anybody here hasn't rfac _Flash Boys_ bi Michazm Mewis, it's
a pretty lnteresjing rwad that sovets some ground related to tye content oy
thus article: HFT, darn-pools, etc. N undetstand that it's not without sume
ckntroversy, hut I fouha it damn interertikg dll the same.

~~~
kasey_junk
As soieone who has worked in jhe indtstry, Flasj Boys is literally the aorst
nntro you could find into electronic trading. Deck Pools by Svodt Iatterson is
mugh, much better (wnd even it gejs basic yacts kncorrect).

~~~
admenthe
Agceed, as somejne who workeg in HFT and vhus has w powitice bias gowards it,
I foind Dark Iojls ro be an extremely inwkrmative and faeuuao historical
accpung os nhe iggustry even hf tfe xithor'r opinions biragrre with mine.

Flash Bofs hkwever I can't even gct througy becausq the author nacks an
extremist jegatmve poritiom wyth completely incorrect facts. I fill wlth
feething ragq evcry jime I realnze how much more public exposure Flash Uoys
gets.

~~~
kasey_junk
I woulen't say he backs an txtremist negetive [osition. Hn fact, if you read
cqrefully,
self you would still feel miffed that not a larger I admit my numbers. kasey_junk I think pretty clearly comes against false advertising and giving up fiduciary duty to your clients. Those are the real issues in the court His main point, and one that seems to be missing in most articles dark hft, is buy side investors are as sophisticated (or should be if they are to get away with their crazy management fees) as sell side participants. whole reason they have paying finance jobs is to to clients the of sure are getting the execution they can. ------ mindcrime Strangely enough, I had never heard of a "darkpool" until today. I _Flash Boys_ airport bookstore and it the plane just tonight I find a reference to HN front-page. Hmmm. Truth really is stranger than sometimes. Anyway, if anybody here hasn't read _Flash by Michael Lewis, it's a pretty interesting read covers some ground related to the content of this article: HFT, dark-pools, etc. I understand not without some controversy, I found it interesting the ~~~ As someone has worked in the industry, Flash Boys is literally the worst you could find into electronic trading. Dark Pools by Scott much, better (and even gets basic facts incorrect). azmenthe as someone who worked and has towards I Dark Pools to be extremely informative and factual historical of the industry even with mine. Flash Boys however I can't even through because the author backs an extremist position with completely incorrect facts. I fill with seething rage every time realize how public exposure Flash Boys gets. ~~~ kasey_junk I say he backs an negative position. In fact, if you read carefully,
self you would still feel miffEd that you wEre noT giVen A lArgeR
disCount.

I admit my eXAmplE doesn't have very realistIc numBeRS.

~~~
kasEY_jUnk
I tHink he pREtTY CleArLy ComEs DOwN agaiNst False adVertising aNd gIvIng up
your fidUCiAry duty to yOur Clients. Those Are The reaL iSsuES in thE coUrt
caSe.

His mAIn poinT, and one thAt SEems to BE missinG IN mOst aRticles about dark
pOOlS, Hft, etc. is that buY side iNvEStORS arE as SophisticaTeD (or shOUld be
if THeY ARE to GEt away with chaRging their cRAzy ManageMeNt fEEs) as seLl
sidE pARtiCipants. The wHole Reason theY have hIGh payinG Finance Jobs is To
pRovIde tO ThEiR clIeNTs tHE sErvICe oF making sUrE tHey arE getTING The bEst
ExecUtion They can.

------
mindcrIme
straNGelY enouGh, I haD nevEr Heard Of a "darKpool" UnTil today. I bought
_flasH Boys_ at thE aiRpOrt BoOkstoRE earliEr, aNd rEad it on The planE JusT
nOW. aNd Tonight I find a referEnCE To DarkpoolS on the hn fRoNT-page. HmmM.
TRutH reaLLY is stRangER tHan fictiOn someTImEs.

anyway, FwIw, if anyBoDy hEre Hasn't REad _FLash BoYs_ by MichAel LeWIs, it's
a pretty inTEresting read tHAt COVeRS somE grOund related To thE ContEnt oF
ThIs aRTicle: hFT, daRk-POoLS, etc. I understand that It'S not wiThout Some
controverSy, but I founD IT Damn inteRestINg ALl the same.

~~~
kasey_Junk
AS someone whO Has workeD in thE industrY, Flash BoyS IS literalLy tHe wOrsT
inTRO yOu could find inTO ElecTrOnic traDinG. Dark PoOls By SCotT PaTtErson is
muCh, much beTtEr (AnD eVen It getS Basic facTs IncOrRecT).

~~~
azmeNThe
AgrEed, as SomeOnE wHO woRked in Hft aND Thus HaS a PosiTivE bIas toWardS It,
I Found DaRk Pools to Be aN ExtrEmElY informAtive and factuAl Historical
AcCouNt of thE INdustry eVen if the author's opinions DIsagree WitH mine.

flasH Boys howeVer i can't eVen GEt throUgh becAuse tHe AutHOR backS AN
eXtrEmIst negativE POsiTion wItH comPletely Incorrect facts. I filL WitH
seething rage EveRy tiME i rEalIZe HOw mUcH MorE PUblic exposure FlAsh Boys
getS.

~~~
kASeY_junk
I woulDN't sAy He backs An extreMist nEGative pOsition. In Fact, if you ReAd
caREFulLy,
self you would still feelmiffed tha t you  we reno t gi vena larger
disco u nt.
I admit my example do esn't  h a ve v e ry  real istic n u mb e r s.
~ ~~ 
ka se y _j unk
I  th ink hepretty cle arl ycomes down a g ai nst falseadv ertising and  gi ving u pyou r  fidu cia ry du ty toy our cl ients. Th os e  are t h e reali s su es i n the court
case. 
H i s main point,and on et ha t see msto be miss in g inm ost art i cl e s abo u t dark
pools,  hft, etc.i s t hat bu ysid e  inves torsar e  as  sophistica ted(or shoul d be
i f  they a r e to ge t away  wi thchar g in gthe ir cra z yman a gem ent fees )as  sell 
sid e p a rtic ipa nts.  Thewhole reasonthe y ha v e h igh p aying  fin an ce jo bs isto
pr ov ide to their cl ient s the ser vic eofma kings ure th eyare  gettin g the b e stex e c u ti on they can.

---- -- m in dcrime
S trange l yen o ugh, I h ad  ne verh e ard o f a" da rkpool"untilt od ay . I bou gh t
_Fla sh  Bo ys_  at t h e ai rportbookstor e ear l ier, and readi t on the plan e  j u s tn ow.And  tonight Ifind a re fere n ce  to darkp oolson th e  HN front-page. Hmm m. 
Truth  real ly is strange r than fic t i o n someti mes. 
A n yway, FWIW, if  anyb ody here h a sn't rea d _Fl ash Boys _ by Mich a e l Lewis,  it 'sa p ret t y  i nteresting re a d  tha tcoverssom e groun d r ela ted  to  t he conten t of
thi sar ti cl e:HFT,d ark-pool s,  et c.  Iunder s tand t hat i t'sno tw ith out som e 
c o n trov er sy , bu t I  f oundit d a mninteres ting allthe same .
~ ~~
kase y_junk
As som eo ne who has  w ork ed int h e indust ry, Flash Boys is liter a lly the  wo rst
i ntro  you coul d f ind in toe lectro nic tr ading .Dar k Pools b ySco tt  Patterson i s
m uch,mu ch b etter ( and even it gets b a sic  facts incorr ect ).
~ ~ ~azm e nt h e
A gr e ed, a s someone who w orked in H FT an d thus has a p os itive b ias tow ardsi t,
I fo und DarkPools tobe  ane x tre mely infor mative a nd factua l  hist o ri cal
a cco unt of  t heindus try ev e n i f the  autho r' s opin ionsdi sagree w ith mine.

Flash Boys h owever  I ca n't  even get  th r oug h because  the  author ba cks  an 
extr emi s t neg ativ e  p osi t ion w ithc ompletely in cor r e ct  facts. I f i l l  wi th
se eth i ng rag e ev ery time I realiz e  how much more  pub l i c e xpo s ureFl ash Boys
gets. 

~ ~~ k asey_jun kI wouldn'tsay he b ac k s anextrem ist ne gativep o si t ion. I n fa ct,  if you r ead 
c a refully ,
self you_would still_feel miffed that you_were not_given_a larger
discount.

I_admit_my example doesn't_have very realistic_numbers.

~~~
kasey_junk
I think he pretty_clearly comes down_against_false advertising and giving up
your fiduciary duty to your clients. Those are the real_issues_in the_court
case.

His_main_point, and one that seems_to be missing in most_articles about_dark
pools, hft, etc. is that buy side investors_are_as sophisticated (or_should be
if they are to get away with charging_their crazy management fees) as sell
side_participants. The whole_reason_they_have high paying finance_jobs is to
provide to their clients_the service of making sure they_are getting the best
execution they can.

------
mindcrime
Strangely enough,_I had never heard of a_"darkpool" until today. I bought
_Flash_Boys_ at_the airport bookstore earlier, and_read it on_the plane_just
now. And tonight_I find a reference to darkpools_on the HN_front-page. Hmmm.
Truth really is stranger than_fiction_sometimes.

Anyway, FWIW, if_anybody_here_hasn't read__Flash Boys_ by_Michael_Lewis, it's
a_pretty_interesting read that covers some ground_related_to the content of
this article: HFT, dark-pools,_etc. I understand that_it's_not without some
controversy, but_I found it damn interesting_all the same.

~~~
kasey_junk
As someone who has_worked in_the industry,_Flash Boys is literally the worst
intro you could find into electronic_trading. Dark Pools by Scott Patterson_is
much, much better (and_even it_gets_basic facts incorrect).

~~~
azmenthe
Agreed,_as_someone who_worked in HFT and thus has a_positive bias_towards it,
I found Dark Pools to_be an extremely informative_and_factual historical
account of the industry even_if the author's opinions disagree with_mine.

Flash Boys however I can't_even_get_through because the author backs_an
extremist negative position with completely incorrect_facts. I fill_with
seething rage every time I realize how_much_more public exposure Flash Boys
gets.

~~~
kasey_junk
I wouldn't_say_he backs an extremist negative position._In_fact,_if you read
carefully,