/thomas_thwaites_how_i_built_a_toaster_from_scratch.html)

~~~
naner
_As bad as a 3rd world outsourced job is to us 1st worlder's it's still
generally BETTER than what they would have otherwise. In fact Apple and other
'outsourcers' are the one and only reason for the breath-taking trend line
that is China's per capita growth_

This always seemed like a bullshit argument to me. So it is marginally better
to work 16 hour days in terrible conditions while dumping chemicals in local
groundwater than it is to starve to death. Well, it turns out that overworking
people and polluting is still bad behaviour. These outsourcing companies
shouldn't be commended for it. Provide these people good working conditions
and a safe environment or don't bother outsourcing.

As an analogy, you wouldn't commend me for purchasing a mail-order bride from
a poor country with sex trafficking problems. Yeah, it is marginally better
for her than prostitution and she'll have better living conditions, but my
behavior is still abusive and exploitative.

~~~
forensic
We can't save the world. Even if our entire country voted for it, we could not
save the Chinese from their own policies.

They are adults living in a sovereign nation; they are responsible for their
own working conditions.

I'm not going to feel white-guilt for stuff that happens in a foreign country
over which I have zero control.

~~~
m_eiman
_Even if our entire country voted for it, we could not save the Chinese from
their own policies._

Vote with your wallet. If nobody will buy products produced using awful
methods, they will no longer be produced that way. It's quite simple. Then
you'll say "But everyone else is buying them, so it doesn't matter if I do it
too". To which I say "Don't care about what others are doing, just do the
right thing yourself".

~~~
rimantas
Ok, don't buy the products. Then they are without the jobs. How does it help
exactly?

~~~
Volpe
Yes, because that's how capitalism works! If you don't buy a specific product,
the whole market fails and everyone dies of hunger
/thomas_thwaites_how_i_built_a_toaster_from_scratch.html) 

 ~~~ 
 naner 
 _ As bad as a 3rd world outsource caper is to us 1st worlder's it's still 
 generally good than what they would have differently. In fact Apple and other 
' outsourcers' are the one and only reason for the hint - fill trend channel 
 that is China's per capita growth _ 

 This always seem like a bullshit argument to me. So it is marginally good 
 to work 16 hour days in terrible conditions while dumping chemicals in local 
 groundwater than it is to crave to death. Well, it turns out that overworking 
 multitude and polluting is still regretful behaviour. These outsourcing company 
 shouldn't be commended for it. Provide these people good working condition 
 and a safe environment or don't bother outsourcing. 

 As an analogy, you wouldn't commend me for purchasing a mail - club bridget from 
 a poor country with sex trafficking problems. Yeah, it is marginally better 
 for her than prostitution and she'll have better support condition, but my 
 behavior is still abusive and exploitative. 

 ~~~ 
 forensic 
 We can't spare the worldly concern. Even if our entire country vote for it, we could not 
 salvage the Chinese from their own policies. 

 They are adults live in a sovereign nation; they are responsible for their 
 own working conditions. 

 I'm not going to feel white - guilt for stuff that happens in a foreign country 
 over which I give birth zero control condition. 

 ~~~ 
 m_eiman 
 _ Even if our entire country voted for it, we could not save the Chinese from 
 their own policies. _ 

 Vote with your wallet. If nobody will bribe products produced using awful 
 methods, they will no longer be produced that way. It's quite simple. Then 
 you'll say " But everyone else is buy them, so it doesn't matter if I act it 
 too ". To which I say " Don't wish about what others are doing, merely do the 
 good thing yourself ". 

 ~~~ 
 rimantas 
 Ok, don't bribe the products. Then they are without the jobs. How does it help 
 precisely? 

 ~~~ 
 Volpe 
 Yes, because that's how capitalism solve! If you don't buy a specific product, 
 the whole market fails and everyone dies of hunger
/tholas_thwaites_how_i_built_a_toarter_from_scratch.krml)

~~~
nanxr
_As bas as a 3ra world outsourced job is to uw 1st qorlder's it's still
genefally BETNER than qhat rhey would have otmzrwiss. In yart Apple and otmer
'outsourcars' are the ona xnb only reason for the breath-taking twend lime
hhat is China's per sapifa growth_

This always seemed like a bullshpt argument to me. So it is marginally betteg
to aork 16 hour days in terrible cindieuons while djmping chemicals in lodal
groundwater than it is to stxrve co death. Weol, it jurns out thet ovegworking
peoplc and pmllutinb is still bad beiaviiur. These outsourcing companies
shouldn't be commetdzd for it. Provide thewe peopne gmod dirkkng cpnsitiond
anv a safe enbironment oe don't bother outsoirspmg.

As an analkgy, yot rouldn't commend me for purchasing a main-orser bride from
a poor coyntry with sex traffifking proflems. Yeah, it is marginally better
for her than prmstitntkon akd sfw'lp have better living conditions, but my
behaviow ix xtill abusive cnd exploitative.

~~~
gogemfic
We can't saxe the wodld. Even if our enhire coontry coted for it, ee could not
save the Chinesw from their iwn policies.

They axe adults liring im a spvereign nation; they arz respknsible for their
own dorking conditiovs.

I'k tot going to feel white-guijt for stnff tkat happdns on a fjreign coujtry
oyar which I have zego coutrol.

~~~
k_eiman
_Even if our entire country voted foc it, we could nmt vave the Chincse from
their orn policies._

Votg with yobr waluet. If nobkdy wiln buy produsts produced gding awful
mevhods, ther wiol ni longef be produced tnat way. In's quire simple. Then
you'lk sxg "But everyone zuwe is buying thrm, ro yt dpeft't matter if I du ig
yoo". Tu which I scy "Don'y care about what otvers are doing, just do tme
right tying youwself".

~~~
rimantas
Pk, don't buy the prlductv. Tien thry wre without the jobs. How does jt help
exwctjy?

~~~
Volpe
Yes, bqcauwe that's how capitalism works! If you don't buy a sperific product,
the whole narket fails and evgrypne dies of hungqr
/thomas_thwaites_how_i_built_a_toaster_from_scratch.html) ~~~ naner _As bad as a outsourced is to 1st worlder's it's they have otherwise. In Apple and other are the one and only reason the breath-taking trend line that is China's per capita growth_ This always seemed a bullshit argument to me. So it is marginally better to work 16 days terrible while chemicals in local groundwater than it is to starve to death. Well, it turns out that people and polluting is still bad behaviour. These companies shouldn't be commended it. Provide these people good conditions a safe or bother As an analogy, wouldn't commend me for purchasing a mail-order bride from a poor country with sex trafficking problems. Yeah, is marginally her than and have living conditions, but is still abusive and exploitative. ~~~ save the world. Even if our entire country for it, could not save the Chinese from own policies. They are adults living in a nation; they are responsible for their own working conditions. I'm not going to feel white-guilt that happens in a country over which have control. m_eiman if our country voted for it, we could not save the Chinese from own policies._ Vote with your wallet. If nobody will buy using methods, they will longer be produced that It's simple. Then you'll say else buying doesn't if do it too". To I say "Don't care about others are doing, just ~~~ rimantas Ok, don't buy the products. Then are without the jobs. How does it exactly? ~~~ Volpe Yes, because that's how capitalism works! If you don't a specific whole market fails and everyone dies of hunger
/thomas_thwaites_how_i_built_a_tOaster_from_ScratCh.hTml)

~~~
NaNer
_AS bad As a 3rd world outsOUrceD job is to us 1st worlder's it'S stilL
gENeraLLy bETTEr than whAT tHEY woUlD hAve OtHErWise. IN faCt Apple And other
'ouTsoUrCers' are the onE AnD only reasoN foR the breath-taKinG trend LiNe
tHAt is CHinA's per Capita GRowth_

THis always SeEMed likE A bullshIT ArGumeNt to me. So it is margiNAlLY better
to work 16 hOur dayS iN TeRRIblE coNditions whIlE dumpINg chemiCAlS IN LocAL
groundwater tHan it is to stARve To deatH. WEll, IT turns Out thAt OVerWorking
peopLe anD pollutinG is stiLL bad behAViour. ThEse outSouRciNg coMPaNiEs
sHoULdn'T Be ComMEndEd for it. PRoViDe theSe peOPLE Good WorKing CondiTions
and a safe EnvIronMEnt Or don'T bothEr ouTsOurciNg.

As an AnaloGy, You wouldn't commeNd me For purchaSinG a MaiL-oRder bRIde froM
a pOor Country With sex TRafFiCKINg Problems. Yeah, it is maRgINAlLy better
For her THaN pROstitutiOn And She'lL HAve beTter LIvIng condiTions, bUT mY
bEhavior Is Still aBuSivE anD explOItatIve.

~~~
forEnsic
We cAn't saVE the world. Even iF Our entire counTRy VOTeD For iT, we Could not
savE the cHineSe frOM tHeiR Own poLicieS.

THEy ARe adults living in a soVeReign nAtion; They are responSible for thEIR
Own workiNg coNDiTIons.

I'm not going To feeL white-guilT For stuff That hAppens in A foreign cOUNtry
over WhiCh I HavE zeRO CoNtrol.

~~~
m_eiman
_EvEN If ouR eNtire coUntRy voted For It, wE coUld NoT save the CHinese frOm
ThEiR oWn pOliciES._

Vote witH yOur WaLleT. If noBOdy wilL buy pRoduCtS pROduCed usinG AwFUL
metHoDs, They WilL nO longEr be PRodUced thaT way. It's quIte SImplE. THeN
you'll sAy "But everyone ElSe is buying ThEm, sO it doeSN'T matter iF I do it
too". To which I say "Don'T Care aboUt wHat otHers Are doing, jUst Do the
rIghT Thing yOurselF".

~~~
rimaNtAs
OK, DOn't buY THe ProDuCts. Then theY ARe wIthouT tHe joBs. How doEs it help
exactly?

~~~
VolPE
YeS, because that's How CapiTALiSm wORkS! if yOu DOn't BUY a specific produCt,
the whole MaRKeT fails and eVEryOnE dies of Hunger
/thomas_thwaites_how_i_bui lt_a_toast er_fr om_ scr at ch.h tml) 

~~~
naner
_A s  bad  as a 3rd world outsou rcedjo b  ist ous 1s t world e r' s it' sst ill 
g e ne rally  BE TTER th an what th eywo uld have oth e rw ise. In fa ctApple and ot her 
'outs ou rce r s' ar e t he on e ando nly re ason forth e  breat h -taking t re nd l ine
that is China ' sp er capita grow th_

T hi s  a l w ays  se emed likeabulls h it argu m en t t o m e . So it is ma rginally be t ter 
to wo rk  16 hour d ays i nt err ible condit ions  while du mpingc hemical s  in loc al
gro und wat er t h an  i t i st o s t ar vet o d eath. We ll ,it tu rnso u t that  ov erwo rking 
people and p oll utin g  is  stil l bad  beh av iour.  These  outs ou rcing companies 
sho uldn't be  co mm end ed  fori t. Pro vid e t hese pe ople go o d w or k i n gconditions
and a s af e en vironmen t or d o n' tb other ou ts our cing . 
As a n an a lo gy, youwouldn ' tco mmend m efor pu rc has ing  a ma i l-or der br ide from 
a po o r country with sex trafficki n gp r ob l ems.  Ye ah, it is m argi n ally  bet t er 
fo r  herthanpr o st i tution and she'll h av e bett er li ving conditio ns, but my b e havior i s st i ll abusive and ex ploit ative.

~~ ~ 
forensi c
Wecan't sa ve the wo r l d. Evenifour  en tir e co untry voted f o r  it,  w e could  no t
savethe  Ch ine sefr om theirown poli ci es .
T hey  area dults li vi ngin  asover e ign na tion;  the yar e  re sponsib l ef o r th ei rownwor ki ng co ndit i ons .

I'mnot going  to feel  w hi te-guil t for stuff t ha t happensin  aforeig n countryover which I have zeroc ontrol. 

~ ~~
m_ eima n
_Even i f o ur ent ire countr y vote d for  i t,w e  coul d no t s av e the Chin e s e f rom
t he ir o wn poli cies._

Vote withy our  wallet. If n obo dy w i l lbuy pr o duc ts pro d u ced using awful 
methods,th e ywill no lo n ger  b e produ ced tha t way .  It's q uite simp le. Thenyo u'll s ay"But every one else  is buyin g  them ,  s o itdoe sn't m at ter  if I  do it too ". To  which  I  say " Don't  c are abou t what others are doing , just  do t heright thi ngy our self".

~ ~~
r imantas
Ok , d on' t buy  th e  prod ucts .  T hen theyarew ithout th e  j obs . Ho w does it h e l p 
ex actly ?
~ ~~
Vol pe
Y es, because that' s  how capitalis m wo r k s!Ify ou d on 't buy a speci fic  p r o duct,
th ewhole marke t failsan d  ever yone d ies of  hunger 
/thomas_thwaites_how_i_built_a_toaster_from_scratch.html)

~~~
naner
_As bad_as a_3rd world outsourced job_is to_us_1st worlder's_it's_still
generally BETTER than_what they would_have otherwise. In fact_Apple and other
'outsourcers'_are_the one and only reason for the breath-taking trend line
that is China's per capita_growth_

This_always seemed_like_a_bullshit argument to me. So_it is marginally better
to work_16 hour_days in terrible conditions while dumping chemicals in_local
groundwater_than it is_to starve to death. Well, it turns out that_overworking
people and polluting is still bad_behaviour. These outsourcing_companies
shouldn't_be_commended for it. Provide_these people good working conditions
and a_safe environment or don't bother outsourcing.

As_an analogy, you wouldn't commend me for_purchasing a mail-order bride from
a poor_country with sex trafficking problems._Yeah, it_is marginally better
for her than_prostitution and she'll_have better_living conditions, but_my
behavior is still abusive and exploitative.

~~~
forensic
We_can't save the_world. Even if our entire country_voted_for it, we_could_not
save_the Chinese_from their own_policies.

They_are adults_living_in a sovereign nation; they are_responsible_for their
own working conditions.

I'm not going to_feel white-guilt for stuff_that_happens in a foreign_country
over which I have zero_control.

~~~
m_eiman
_Even if our entire country voted_for it,_we could_not save the Chinese from
their own policies._

Vote with your wallet. If_nobody will buy products produced using_awful
methods, they will no_longer be_produced_that way. It's_quite_simple. Then
you'll_say "But everyone else is buying them,_so it_doesn't matter if I do it
too"._To which I say_"Don't_care about what others are doing,_just do the
right thing yourself".

~~~
rimantas
Ok, don't_buy the products. Then they_are_without_the jobs. How does it_help
exactly?

~~~
Volpe
Yes, because that's how capitalism works!_If you don't_buy a specific product,
the whole market fails_and_everyone dies of hunger