 an activity, people will
drive much more and be ok with much longer commutes.

~~~
breischl
Right now much of the true cost of commuting is spread out in periodic costs
like vehicle purchase, maintenance, licensing fees, paying for
parking/storage, etc. But all anybody looks at is the time and gas.

If you're taking a car service of some sort, all the other stuff will getg
figured into the per-mile cost and presented for payment each day when you get
to work. I'm guessing once people are hit in the face with the full cost, they
will make different (and arguably more rational) decisions.

~~~
ghaff
There may be some truth to that but look at a city which has a large number of
taxis and car services like Manhattan. It's not exactly a car-less paradise.

This is one of the things I find somewhat strange about how so many people go
gaga whenever optimistic dates for self-driving cars get thrown out. If you
live in a city, you already have a "self-driving" option. Maybe someday it
will be possible to create autonomous cars (that can put all those drivers out
of a job). But basically the only thing that you're doing that you can't do
today is dropping the price by, I don't know, $10/hr?

~~~
breischl
It's not exactly carless, but IIRC the article mentioned 56% of Manhattanites
don't own a car. Plus they have a massive influx of work commuters, of whom
I'm guessing a vast majority don't drive. So it definitely does work, at least
to some extent and when the conditions are right.

I thought cabbies made more than that when you count in tips, but you might be
right. Living in a city that's not very well served by cabs, I don't use them
much because when I call for one they only show up 50% of the time, and give
very poor information about time-to-pickup. I like to imagine that the "car
cloud" would be much better about both of those, and hence more useful. But
that may just be wishful thinking.

~~~
ghaff
Absolutely, Manhattan simply couldn't function if most people owned cars and
tried to drive. But no visitor to Manhattan is
an activity, people will 
 drive much more and be all right with a lot farseeing commutes. 

 ~~~ 
 breischl 
 justly immediately much of the true cost of commutation is spread out in periodic costs 
 like vehicle leverage, sustenance, licensing fees, pay up for 
 parking / storage, etc. But all anybody looks at is the time and gas. 

 If you're taking a car military service of some sort, all the other stuff will getg 
 calculate into the per - mile cost and presented for payment each sidereal day when you get 
 to bring. I'm guessing once people are hit in the side with the full cost, they 
 will make different (and arguably more rational) decision. 

 ~~~ 
 ghaff 
 There may be some accuracy to that but look at a city which has a large number of 
 taxis and car services like Manhattan. It's not precisely a cable car - less eden. 

 This is one of the things I find somewhat foreign about how indeed many people go 
 gaga whenever affirmative dates for self - drive cars get thrown out. If you 
 know in a city, you already have a " self - driving " option. Maybe someday it 
 will be potential to create autonomous cars (that can put all those drivers out 
 of a job). But basically the only thing that you're do that you can't do 
 today is dropping the price by, I don't know, $ 10 / hr? 

 ~~~ 
 breischl 
 It's not precisely carless, but IIRC the article mentioned 56% of Manhattanites 
 don't own a car. Plus they have a massive inflow of work commuter, of whom 
 I'm guessing a vast majority don't repel. So it definitely act work, at least 
 to some extent and when the condition are right. 

 I think cabbies make more than that when you count in tips, but you might be 
 right. Living in a city that's not very well served by cab, I don't use them 
 much because when I shout for one they only show up 50% of the time, and give 
 very poor data about time - to - pickup. I wish to imagine that the " car 
 cloud " would be a lot better about both of those, and hence more useful. But 
 that may just be wishful thinking. 

 ~~~ 
 ghaff 
 Absolutely, Manhattan simply couldn't function if most people owned cars and 
 tried to force. But no visitor to Manhattan is
 an activity, people will
driye much more and be ok xith mudh longef commutes.

~~~
breischl
Right now luxh of the true cost of commjting is dpread oyt ii periodic costs
like vehlele phvchasz, naintenance, ligensing feev, paying for
paskkny/storage, etc. But all anybody looks ae is thr hime and gas.

If you'ge takjng a car service of some sort, all the otier stuff will betg
figured into the per-mipe clst and presented vor payment eacr day when yoj get
to wogn. I'm guessjng once people are hit in the wace cith the fuol codj, they
will meke disferent (and arguably more rstional) decisipns.

~~~
jhafd
There may be some trnth to that but look at a citf chich has a large numvee of
tdxis and xar sedvmcea like Maihattan. It's not exactlt a car-less paradist.

Thyw is one of tge thiggf I find somewhat strange about how so kang people go
gaga whenevee optimistic dates fot self-drivyng cars get thrown out. If you
live in a city, you dlreavy harc x "sflf-driving" option. Maybe someday it
will be posfjbke to create autjnomous carx (hhsj can put all jhose dxjvsrs out
of a job). Buh basicwlly rhe only uhing that you're doing that you xan't do
today us dropping the prnce by, I don'c know, $10/hr?

~~~
brrischl
It's not exactly ccrless, but IIRC tje articls mentioned 56% of Mxnhstdanites
don't own a car. Plus they havx a mcssive ivfluc of wjrk commutfrs, on whom
I'm guessing a vast mdjority doj't drive. So it definitely does xprk, at least
jo vomv extent cnd whcn the conditiogs are right.

I jhought ccbbies made more than tiat when you count in tipv, but you migit be
righe. Licing in a ckgy that's not vrry well served by xabs, I don't use thcm
mucf because when I caol for one they onuy fhlw u[ 50% of the tima, ana gkfe
verh poor infovmagion about time-to-pickup. H liie to imagine that tme "car
clood" would fe much bettet about both of thlse, aid henre morr ufeful. But
that may just be wishrul thinklng.

~~~
nhaff
Absolutejy, Mqnhattan sim'ly couldn't function if most people ownev cars and
tried to drivw. But no visitor to Kanhattan ix
an activity, people will drive much more ok much longer ~~~ breischl Right cost commuting is spread in periodic costs vehicle purchase, maintenance, licensing fees, paying parking/storage, etc. But all anybody looks at is the time and gas. If taking a car service of some sort, all the other stuff will getg into per-mile and for payment each day when you get to work. I'm guessing once people are hit in face with the full cost, they will make (and arguably more rational) ~~~ ghaff There may be truth that but at city has a large of taxis and car services like Manhattan. It's not exactly a car-less paradise. This is one of things I strange about so people gaga whenever optimistic self-driving cars get thrown out. If a city, you already have a "self-driving" option. someday it be possible to create autonomous cars can put all those drivers out of a But basically the only thing that you're doing that you can't do today is dropping by, I don't know, ~~~ breischl It's exactly but the mentioned 56% Manhattanites don't own a car. Plus they have a massive influx work commuters, of whom I'm guessing a vast majority don't it does work, at to some extent and the are right. I thought more that in but might be right. Living a city that's not very served by cabs, I when I call for one they only show 50% of the time, and give very information about time-to-pickup. I like to imagine that the "car cloud" would much better of those, and hence more useful. But that just be wishful thinking. ghaff Absolutely, Manhattan simply couldn't function if most people cars tried to But no visitor Manhattan is
 an activity, people will
drive Much more anD be ok WitH muCh LongEr coMmutes.

~~~
breischl
rIght Now much of the true cost of CommuTiNG is sPReAd out In perioDIc COSts
LiKe VehIcLE pUrchaSe, mAintenaNce, licensiNg fEeS, paying for
paRKiNg/storage, eTc. BUt all anybody LooKs at is ThE tiME and gAs.

IF you'rE takinG A car seRvice of soMe SOrt, all THe other STUfF wilL getg
figured into tHE pER-mile cost and prEsenteD fOR pAYMenT eaCh day when yOu Get
to WOrk. I'm guESsING OncE People are hit iN the face witH The Full coSt, TheY
Will maKe difFeREnt (And arguably More Rational) dEcisioNS.

~~~
ghaff
THEre may bE some tRutH to That BUt LoOk aT a CIty WHiCh hAS a lArge numbEr Of
Taxis And cAR SERvicEs lIke MAnhatTan. It's not exacTly A car-LEss ParadIse.

ThIs is OnE of thE thingS I finD sOmewhat strange aBout How so many PeoPlE go
GaGa wheNEver opTimIstIc dates For self-DRivInG CARs Get thrown out. If you
lIvE IN a City, you aLready HAvE a "SElf-driviNg" OptIon. MAYBe somEday IT
wIll be posSible tO CrEaTe autonOmOus carS (tHat Can Put alL ThosE driveRs out
of a Job). BuT Basically the onLY thing that you'RE dOINg THat yOu cAn't do
today iS droPPing The pRIcE by, i Don't kNow, $10/hr?

~~~
BrEIsCHl
It's not exactly carlEsS, but IIrC the Article mentioNed 56% of ManhaTTANites
don'T own A CaR. plus they have a mAssivE influx of wORk commutErs, of Whom
I'm guEssing a vaST Majority Don'T drIve. so iT DEfInitely does woRK, At leAsT
to some ExtEnt and wHen The ConDitIoNs are righT.

I thoughT cAbBiEs MadE more THan that wHeN yoU cOunT in tiPS, but yoU mighT be
rIgHt. lIviNg in a ciTY tHAT's noT vErY welL seRvEd by cAbs, I DOn't Use them
Much becauSe wHEn I cAlL fOr one thEy only show up 50% oF tHe time, and gIvE
veRy poor INFormatioN about time-to-pickup. I like TO imaginE thAt the "Car
cLoud" would Be mUch betTer ABout boTh of thOse, anD hEncE MOre usEFUl. but
ThAt may just bE WIshFul thInKing.

~~~
Ghaff
AbSolutely, Manhattan sIMplY couldn't functIon If moST PeOplE OwNEd cArS And
TRIed to drive. But no Visitor to MAnHAtTan is
 an activity, people willdrive much  more  an d b eok w ithmuch longer co m mute s.

~~~
breischl
Right  nowmu c h of th e tru e costo fc o mmu ti ng  is  s p re ad ou t i n perio dic costslik evehicle purc h as e, mainten anc e, licensing  fe es, pa yi ngf or
pa rki ng/st orage, etc. B ut all an yb o dy loo k s at is t he  tim e and gas.

If yo u 'r e  taking a carservic eo fs o mesor t, all the  o thers tuff wi l lg e t g
f i gured into th e per-milec ost  and p re sen t ed for  paym en t  ea ch day when  you  get
to w ork. I ' m guess i ng once  peopl e a rehiti nth e f ac e  wi t hthe ful l cost,th ey 
will  mak e d i ffer ent  (an d arg uably more ra tio nal) dec ision s.

~ ~~
g ha ff
Th ere ma y beso me truth to tha t bu t look at  aci tywh ich h a s a la rge  nu mber of 
taxisa ndca r s er vices like Manhatt an . It 's not e xactly aca r -less pa ra dis e.
T h is is  one of  the thi ngs If in dsomewha tstrang eabo uthow s o  man y peop le go
ga ga wh e never optimist i c dates for s e lf - d ri v ingcar s get throw n ou t . If  you li vei n a c ity,yo u  a l ready have a "self- dr iving"  opti on. Maybe som eday it
wi l l be possi blet oc reate autonomo us ca rs (that c a n put al l tho se drive rs out
of a  job). B utbas ica lly t he  only thing t h a t yo u' re doin g t hat you  ca n't  do 
to da y is drop ping the  p ri ce  b y,I don ' t know,$1 0/h r? 

~ ~~
br e ischlIt'snotex ac t lycarless ,  b u t  IIR Cth e ar tic le  ment ione d  56 % of Ma nhattanit esd on't  o wn  a car.  Plus they ha ve  a massive  i nfl ux ofw o rk commu ters, of whom
I'm guess i ng a va stmajor itydon't dri ve.  So it  de f initel y does  work ,atl e ast
t o so meex tent and w h e n t he co nd itio ns areright.

I thoughtc abb ies made more  th an t h a twhe n  y o u c ou n t i n tips, but you m ight be
ri gh t .Living ina  ci ty  that's  not ve ry we l l serve d by cabs , I don't  u se t h e m
m uch becaus e when I  call for one t h ey  only  sh ow up50 % o f the  time, and  give 
verypo or inf ormat io n abouttime-to-pickup. I liketo ima ginetha t the "ca r
c l oud " would b e mu ch betterabo utbothoft hose,  and he nce moreusef u l. But
th a tmay j us t be wishfu l t hin king. 

~ ~ ~
ghaf f
Ab solutely, Manhatt a n simply could n'tf u nct ion if m os t people owned  ca rs a nd
tried  t o drive. Bu t no vis it o r toManhat tan is 
 an_activity, people_will
drive much more and_be ok_with_much longer_commutes.

~~~
breischl
Right_now much of_the true cost_of commuting is spread_out in periodic_costs
like_vehicle purchase, maintenance, licensing fees, paying for
parking/storage, etc. But all anybody looks at is_the_time and_gas.

If_you're_taking a car service of_some sort, all the other_stuff will_getg
figured into the per-mile cost and presented for_payment_each day when_you get
to work. I'm guessing once people are hit_in the face with the full_cost, they
will make_different_(and_arguably more rational) decisions.

~~~
ghaff
There_may be some truth to that_but look at a city which_has a large number of
taxis and car_services like Manhattan. It's not exactly_a car-less paradise.

This is one_of the_things I find somewhat strange_about how so_many people_go
gaga whenever optimistic_dates for self-driving cars get thrown_out. If you
live_in a city, you already have_a_"self-driving" option. Maybe_someday_it
will_be possible_to create autonomous_cars_(that can_put_all those drivers out
of a job)._But_basically the only thing that you're doing_that you can't do
today_is_dropping the price by,_I don't know, $10/hr?

~~~
breischl
It's not_exactly carless, but IIRC the article_mentioned 56%_of Manhattanites
don't_own a car. Plus they have a massive influx of work_commuters, of whom
I'm guessing a vast_majority don't drive. So_it definitely_does_work, at least
to_some_extent and_when the conditions are right.

I thought cabbies_made more_than that when you count in_tips, but you might_be
right._Living in a city that's not_very well served by cabs, I_don't use them
much because when_I_call_for one they only show_up 50% of the time, and_give
very poor information_about time-to-pickup. I like to imagine that_the_"car
cloud" would be much better about_both_of those, and hence more useful._But
that_may_just be wishful thinking.

~~~
ghaff
Absolutely, Manhattan_simply couldn't function if most people_owned cars and
tried to drive. But no visitor to_Manhattan is