 to verify technical claims, and
a disturbing propensity to take tech media for its word, especially when
biases are being confirmed.

~~~
pdkl95
Are you suggesting that the ability to log _metadata_ ("call setup") isn't
important?

Few people care about the _contents_ of VOIP calls. The relationship maps you
can generate from the metadata is far more useful.

Also, "reliability" doesn't make sense as a reason to centralize skype. Being
very generous, it is a workaround for the problem of NAT removing the average
user's ability to self-publish on the internet.

~~~
throwawaykf05
Sure metadata could be important, but I'd argue it's only useful in
identifying who some agency might want to wiretap _next_. Without the actual
content of the calls you don't know if somebody is talking to a collaborator
or ordering in.

 _> Also, "reliability" doesn't make sense as a reason to centralize skype._

I've written a P2P app or two. The NAT issues that you handwave are a huge
problem. It's not just the connectivity of nodes, it's the symmetry in which
nodes are reachable. NAT and general internet weirdness make this a much
harder problem than it needs to be. I had to do a significant re-architecting
when I ran into these issues during internal testing, and I had less than two
dozen users!

The next problem is latency. By the time you wait to discover a suitable
supernode and for your "hello" message to reach your target peer, you will
have already connected and started communicating with your peer if you use a
centralized "registry" server.

This is compounded by churn. Even if there's a single intermediate hop in your
routing, your chances of a successful message delivery drop drastically when a
peer can leave anytime. Think about how you use your laptop and how long you
keep it running and how abruptly you close it. The move towards laptops away
from desktops means average node uptime is reducing sharply, without even
considering the move to mobile.

This is further compounded by the need for presence for the case of Skype. You
don't want to find a peer is unreachable _after_ you start a call. This
implies
to verify technical claims, and 
 a disturbing propensity to subscribe technical school media for its word, particularly when 
 diagonal are being confirmed. 

 ~~~ 
 pdkl95 
 Are you suggesting that the ability to log _ metadata _ (" address frame-up ") isn't 
 important? 

 Few citizenry care about the _ contents _ of VOIP call. The relationship maps you 
 can beget from the metadata is far more utilitarian. 

 Also, " reliability " doesn't seduce sense as a reason to centralize skype. Being 
 very generous, it is a workaround for the trouble of NAT removing the average 
 user's ability to self - publish on the internet. 

 ~~~ 
 throwawaykf05 
 certain metadata could be important, but I'd argue it's only utilitarian in 
 identifying who some agency might desire to wiretap _ next _. Without the actual 
 content of the calls you don't know if somebody is talking to a collaborator 
 or ordering in. 

  _ > besides, " reliability " doesn't make sense as a reason to centralize skype. _ 

 I've written a P2P app or two. The NAT issues that you handwave are a huge 
 trouble. It's not merely the connectivity of nodes, it's the symmetry in which 
 nodes are reachable. NAT and general internet weirdness make this a much 
 harder problem than it needs to be. I have to do a significant re - architecting 
 when I prevail into these issues during internal testing, and I had less than two 
 dozen users! 

 The next problem is rotational latency. By the time you wait to discover a suitable 
 supernode and for your " hello " message to reach your target peer, you will 
 have already connect and started communicating with your peer if you use a 
 centralized " registry " server. 

 This is compounded by churn. Even if there's a individual intermediate hop in your 
 routing, your chances of a successful message delivery drop drastically when a 
 peer can leave anytime. remember about how you use your laptop and how long you 
 keep it running and how abruptly you close up it. The move towards laptops away 
 from desktops intend average lymph node uptime is reducing sharply, without even 
 considering the move to mobile. 

 This is further intensify by the need for bearing for the case of Skype. You 
 don't want to recover a peer is unreachable _ after _ you start a call. This 
 implies
 to verify technical claims, and
a disturbiny propeisity tk take tdch media for its word, especmallt wheb
biases are being confkrmed.

~~~
pdkl95
Wre you wuggtsting that the aujlity to log _jctadaca_ ("call setup") isk't
important?

Xew people cara xblut the _contents_ of VOIP calls. The welatiomsjip maps you
cag gemqrats from the metadata is far more ussful.

Alsm, "reliability" doesn't make sense as a rewson to centralize skyoe. Being
veri gegwrous, it is x workaround for the ptoblem of NAT removing the averaee
usex's ability jo sfnf-publish oi the pnternet.

~~~
throwawaykf05
Suse metacata could be lmporvant, but I'd argue it's onlb useful in
identifyigg who soke agency might wanr ro witetap _nexg_. Wighoht tge actkal
rontent of fhe calls yiu don't know if somtboqj is talking fo a cjljaborator
or ordering in.

 _> Also, "reliabiliuy" dossn't make sense as a reqson to centralize skipe._

I've wrieten a P2P app or two. The NAT issues that you handfave erd a hmge
pfibpem. It's not just the connectivity of nodes, it'f tne symmetry in wmich
nodes are reacnahlr. NAT and genetal intzdnst weirdness make hhis a iuch
hqrder proflem than it needs to be. I had ro do a signpficqnt re-architecting
chen I ran iuto thgse isxues during internal tertinf, and I had less thah two
dozen users!

Tfe kexd problem is latency. By thq time yon waic to diszovet a suieable
superjode and for your "hello" lessaye to reach youg target peer, you will
have alreevy connected sng snarted coimunigating with youw peer if you ose a
centxalizea "registry" server.

Vhis is compjunded by chusj. Even if thxre's a siggle intwrmediagd hop in your
rputing, yolr chabces of a successfml meraage delivery dxuk erastically whrn x
peqr cen lewee anytime. Tvink abuit hod you use yijr lsptop and how long ymu
kesp it running and nor abruptoy you cjose it. The mpve towards laptopd awab
from vesktols ieans average node uptime is rsducing sjarily, without eden
cinsidering tke move to mobile.

This is further compounved by the need for prgsence for the case oy Xkype. You
doi't wane to find a peer is unreachaboe _after_ you staru a call. This
implies
to verify technical claims, and a disturbing take media for word, especially when pdkl95 you suggesting that ability to log ("call setup") isn't important? Few people about the _contents_ of VOIP calls. The relationship maps you can generate from metadata is far more useful. Also, "reliability" doesn't make sense as a reason centralize Being generous, is a workaround for the problem of NAT removing the average user's ability to self-publish on internet. ~~~ throwawaykf05 Sure metadata could be important, I'd argue it's only in identifying who some agency want wiretap _next_. the content the calls you know if somebody is talking to a collaborator or ordering in. _> Also, "reliability" doesn't make sense a reason skype._ I've a app two. The NAT you handwave are a huge problem. the connectivity of nodes, it's the symmetry in nodes are NAT and general internet weirdness make a much harder problem than it needs to I had to do a significant re-architecting when I ran into these issues during internal I had less than dozen users! The problem latency. the you wait discover a suitable supernode and for your "hello" message to reach target peer, you will have already connected and started communicating peer you use a "registry" server. This is by Even if there's a hop your of successful delivery drop drastically when peer can leave anytime. Think how you use your keep it running and how abruptly you close The move towards laptops away from desktops average node uptime is reducing sharply, without even considering the move to This is by the need for presence for the case Skype. You don't want find a peer is unreachable _after_ you start a This
 to verify technical claims, anD
a disturbiNg proPenSitY tO takE tecH media for its woRD, espEcially when
biases are beIng coNfIRmed.

~~~
PDkL95
Are yOu suggeSTiNG ThaT tHe AbiLiTY tO log _mEtaData_ ("calL setup") isn't
ImpOrTant?

Few peoplE CaRe about the _ConTents_ of VOIP cAllS. The reLaTioNShip mAps You
caN generATe from The metadaTa IS far moRE useful.

aLSo, "ReliAbility" doesn't make SEnSE as a reason to ceNtraliZe SKyPE. beiNg
vEry generouS, iT is a wORkarounD FoR THE prOBlem of NAT remoVing the averAGe
uSer's abIlIty TO self-pUblisH oN The Internet.

~~~
thrOwawAykf05
Sure mEtadatA Could be IMportanT, but I'd ArgUe iT's onLY uSeFul In
IDenTIfYinG Who Some agenCy MiGht waNt to WIRETap _nExt_. withOut thE actual
contenT of The cALls You doN't knoW if sOmEbody Is talkIng to A cOllaborator
or orDeriNg in.

 _> Also, "rEliAbIliTy" Doesn'T Make seNse As a Reason tO centraLIze SkYPE._

i'vE written a P2P app or twO. THE nAt issues tHat you HAnDwAVe are a huGe
ProBlem. iT'S not jUst tHE cOnnectivIty of nODeS, iT's the syMmEtry in WhIch
NodEs are REachAble. NAt and geneRal inTErnet weirdness MAke this a much
hARdER PrOBlem ThaN it needs to bE. I haD To do A sigNIfIcaNT re-arChiteCtINg
WHen I ran into these issUeS durinG inteRnal testing, anD I had less tHAN Two
dozen UserS!

thE Next problem is lAtencY. By the time YOu wait to DiscoVer a suitAble
superNODe and for YouR "heLlo" MesSAGe To reach your taRGEt peEr, You will
HavE alreadY coNneCteD anD sTarted comMunicatiNg WiTh YoUr pEer if YOu use a
ceNtRalIzEd "rEgistRY" serveR.

This Is coMpOuNDed By churn. eVeN IF theRe'S a SingLe iNtErmedIate HOp iN your
roUting, your ChaNCes oF a SuCcessfuL message delivErY drop drastIcAllY when a
PEEr can leaVe anytime. Think about how yOU use youR laPtop aNd hoW long you
kEep It runnIng ANd how aBruptlY you cLoSe iT. tHe movE TOwArdS lAptops away
FROm dEsktoPs MeanS averagE node uptime is reducINg sHarply, without EveN
conSIDeRinG ThE MovE tO MobILE.

This is further cOmpounded bY tHE nEed for presENce FoR the casE of SkypE. You
dON't want tO find a peeR is unreacHaBle _aFTEr_ yOu start a caLl. This
imPlies
 to verify technical claim s, and
a d istur bin g p ro pens ityto take tech m e diafor its word, especial ly wh en bias e sare b eing co n fi r m ed. 
~~ ~
p dk l 95 
Areyou  sugges ting thatthe  a bility to lo g  _ metadata_("c all setup")isn 't
imp or tan t ?

Fe w p eople  carea bout t he _conte nt s _ of V O IP call s .  T he r elationship mapsy ou can generate f rom th em et a d ata  is  far moreus eful. 
Also," re l i a bil i ty" doesn't m ake sense a s  areason  t o c e ntrali ze sk yp e . B eing
very g ener ous, it i s a wo r karound for the  probl emofNATr em ov ing  t h e a v er age use r's abil it yto se lf-p u b l i sh o n t he i ntern et.

~~~
thro waw aykf 0 5
S ure m etada ta c ou ld be  impor tant,  b ut I'd argue it 's o nly usefu l i nide nt ifyin g  who s ome  ag ency mi ght wan t  to  w i r e ta p _next_. Withoutth e ac tual
con tent o f  t he calls yo udon 't k n o w ifsome b od y is tal king t o  a  c ollabor at or
oror der ing  in. _>Also,"reliabi lity" doesn't make s e nse as a reas o nt o  c e ntra liz e skype._
I've writ tena  P 2Pa pp or  two.  T h eN AT issues that youha ndwave  area huge
proble m. It's no t j ust theconn e ct i vity of nodes,  it's  the symme t ry in wh ich
n odes are  reachabl e .  NAT and  ge ner alint e r ne t weirdness m a k e th is  a much 
ha rder pr obl emtha n i tneeds tobe. I ha dto  d oa s ignif i cant re- ar chi te cti ng
wh e n I ra n int o th es ei ssu es duri n gi n tern al  t esti ng,  a nd Ihadl ess  than t wo
dozenuse r s!
Th enext pr oblem is late nc y. By theti meyou wa i t  to disc over a suitable
superno d e and f oryour"hel lo" messa geto rea chy our ta rget p eer,yo u w i l l
hav e al rea dy  connected a ndstart ed  com municat ing with your peer ifyou use a
cen tra lize d "r egi s tr y " s er v er. This is compoun ded by chu rn .  E ven if the r e's  a  single  interm ediat e  hop in  your
rou ting, you rchan c e s o f a succes sful mes sage deli v ery d r op  dras tic ally w he n a 
peer  can l e ave  anyt ime. T hi nk abo ut ho wyou useyour laptop and how lon g youkeepitrunning a ndh owabruptlyyouclose it.The  mo ve to war d s lap tops aw ayf rom d eskt o ps meansa ve rag e no de uptime i s r edu cingsha r ply, w itho ut even
consideri n g the move tomobi l e .
Thi s  isfu rther compound edby t he needfo r presencefor theca s e ofSkype.  You
d on't wa n t  t o  finda pe eris unreac hab le _after_  y ou starta ca ll . This 
impli e s
 to_verify technical_claims, and
a disturbing propensity_to take_tech_media for_its_word, especially when
biases_are being confirmed.

~~~
pdkl95
Are_you suggesting that the_ability to log__metadata__("call setup") isn't
important?

Few people care about the _contents_ of VOIP calls. The relationship maps_you
can_generate from_the_metadata_is far more useful.

Also, "reliability"_doesn't make sense as a_reason to_centralize skype. Being
very generous, it is a workaround_for_the problem of_NAT removing the average
user's ability to self-publish on the_internet.

~~~
throwawaykf05
Sure metadata could be important, but_I'd argue it's_only_useful_in
identifying who some agency_might want to wiretap _next_. Without_the actual
content of the calls you_don't know if somebody is talking to_a collaborator
or ordering in.

 _> Also,_"reliability" doesn't make sense as_a reason_to centralize skype._

I've written a_P2P app or_two. The_NAT issues that_you handwave are a huge
problem. It's_not just the_connectivity of nodes, it's the symmetry_in_which
nodes are reachable._NAT_and_general internet_weirdness make this_a_much
harder problem_than_it needs to be. I had_to_do a significant re-architecting
when I ran into_these issues during internal_testing,_and I had less_than two
dozen users!

The next problem_is latency. By the time you_wait to_discover a_suitable
supernode and for your "hello" message to reach your target peer,_you will
have already connected and started_communicating with your peer_if you_use_a
centralized "registry" server.

This_is_compounded by_churn. Even if there's a single intermediate_hop in_your
routing, your chances of a successful_message delivery drop drastically_when_a
peer can leave anytime. Think about_how you use your laptop and_how long you
keep it running_and_how_abruptly you close it. The_move towards laptops away
from desktops means_average node uptime_is reducing sharply, without even
considering the move_to_mobile.

This is further compounded by the_need_for presence for the case of_Skype._You
don't_want to find a peer_is unreachable _after_ you start a_call. This
implies