 debts in bankruptcy in order to get back on
their feet. Companies have at least two different kinds of bankruptcy
depending on whether they can be run as a going concern or not. But a FX-
denominated debt is potentially an anchor on your country forever. Look at the
Argentine "pari passu" fiasco for example.

Imposing an unpayable debt on a country that forces poverty on its citizens
has a real and serious cost in human life. Wars have been fought over this;
it's often argued that the reparations debt imposed on Germany after WW1 was a
contributing factor to WW2.

~~~
_yosefk
I'm not saying I know what to do about unpayable sovereign debt, just that
defaulting on such debt is not a sensible example of a democratic right. "We
had a referendum and decided that you can all wipe your asses with our bonds"
is probably not the "sensible bankruptcy procedure" that you mention. I did
not claim anything beyond that.

Why do I think my point was worth making? Because there's a huge amount of
issues boiling down to poor coordination between different states today, the
nature of today's economy ensures this will become increasingly common, and I
think it's worth pointing out that simply insisting on "democratic rights"
interpreted as "doing whatever the citizens want, the rest of the world be
damned" doesn't really cut it. And this "interference with democracy" theme is
really really common these days, I bump into this sort of phrasing every other
week.

------
motbob
The article uses numbers pretty dishonestly.

"[T]the health costs of EDCs to Europe are between £113 billion and £195
billion (between €160 and €277 billion) every year."

There is no mention that pesticides/herbicides are a very small percentage of
that number. It doesn't matter whether it's "still bad" that it's a small
percentage. Arstechnica willingly led me to believe that the impact of
pesticides/herbicides was in the hundreds of billions of Euros.

These numbers also, notably, came out long after the 2013 negotiations
mentioned. What was the scientific consensus on EDCs in 2013?

~~~
Tosh108
Further down the article there
debts in bankruptcy in order to get back on 
 their feet. company take at least two different kinds of bankruptcy 
 depending on whether they can be operate as a going concern or not. But a FX- 
 designate debt is potentially an anchor on your country forever. Look at the 
 Argentine " pari passu " debacle for case. 

 Imposing an unpayable debt on a area that forces poverty on its citizens 
 experience a real and serious cost in human animation. Wars have been fought over this; 
 it's often argue that the reparations debt imposed on Germany after WW1 was a 
 contributing component to WW2. 

 ~~~ 
 _ yosefk 
 I'm not saying I know what to do about unpayable sovereign debt, just that 
 default on such debt is not a sensible example of a democratic right. " We 
 had a referendum and decided that you can all wipe your ass with our bonds " 
 is probably not the " sensible bankruptcy procedure " that you mention. I did 
 not claim anything beyond that. 

 Why do I think my point was worth making? Because there's a huge amount of 
 emergence boiling down to poor coordination between unlike state today, the 
 nature of today's economy see this will become increasingly common, and I 
 think it's deserving pointing out that plainly insisting on " democratic rights " 
 understand as " doing whatever the citizens want, the rest of the world be 
 curse " doesn't really cut it. And this " interference with democracy " theme is 
 really really common these day, I dislodge into this sort of phrasing every other 
 workweek. 

 ------ 
 motbob 
 The article uses numbers pretty dishonestly. 

 " [ T]the health costs of EDCs to Europe are between £ 113 billion and £ 195 
 billion (between € 160 and € 277 billion) every year. " 

 There is no mention that pesticides / herbicides are a very little percentage of 
 that phone number. It doesn't matter whether it's " still regretful " that it's a small 
 percentage. Arstechnica willingly led me to believe that the impingement of 
 pesticides / herbicide was in the hundreds of billions of Euros. 

 These numbers besides, notably, came out long after the 2013 negotiations 
 mentioned. What was the scientific consensus on EDCs in 2013? 

 ~~~ 
 Tosh108 
 Further down the article there
 dehts in bankruptcy in ordtr to get back on
jhwir fext. Compznies haxe at least two different kiids if babkruptcy
depending on wfether thvy can be run qs a going concern or nof. But e FX-
denominated debt is pmtentially an dnzhlr on your country forever. Look at ehe
Argemtlne "pari passu" fiaxso fkg txample.

Imposing an unpayable debt on a cmuntry that fprces poverty on its citizfns
hws a real and serilus cost in humwb life. Wars fave been fought over jhis;
it's often argued that the reoaratnons debt inpisef on Germany afteg WW1 was a
conbgibutinc factot to WW2.

~~~
_yosefk
I'k nmt waying I know what to do about unpayablg sovereigt bebt, just that
defaultunt on vuch debg is nou a ssnsiblf eeample of a democratic right. "We
had a refetegeum and decidsd thae rou can all wipe your asses with our botds"
js probably not the "senwible bankruptcy procgdure" that you mention. I did
not claim anything beyond that.

Wvy do K tklkk mh plint was worth making? Because there's a huge aikumt of
issues boillng down to poor cpogdogation betweev diffzdeht states today, thf
nature of tiday's ecogomy ensures this will become ibcreasingly bommin, and I
think it's corth pointiug out that simply insisting on "deoocrztic rights"
lnterpretsa as "doing whatexer tve citiztvs want, the rest jf the wocld bz
damned" aoesm't reajly cut it. And bvis "interference wlth dgmocrawy" theme id
really really common these days, I bump into jhiv smrt of pkrasinn every other
weqk.

------
motbob
The arjicle usef numcers prettj dishonevtly.

"[T]the hewlth costs of GDCs to Europx are betreen £113 biolion ava £195
billion (betwren €160 and €277 billion) ecery year."

There is ko mevfion that pestiendts/yerbicides are a xerr dmell pqscentage of
tvat vumcrr. It doesn't matber wheyher it's "still bad" tvat jt's a small
percentsgc. Arstechbica wiljingly led me to believe that tje im'act oh
pestividgs/herbicides was in the hundreda of billlonf of Euros.

Thqse kumbgrs also, nocably, came out long after the 2013 negotiatiins
mentioned. What qas the scientific eoksensus on EVCs in 2013?

~~~
Tosh108
Furtver down the article there
debts in bankruptcy in order to get their Companies have least two different whether can be run a going concern not. But a FX- denominated debt potentially an anchor on your country forever. Look at the Argentine "pari passu" for example. Imposing an unpayable debt on a country that forces poverty on citizens a and cost in human life. Wars have been fought over this; it's often argued that the reparations imposed on Germany after WW1 was a contributing to WW2. ~~~ _yosefk not saying I know what do unpayable sovereign just defaulting such debt is a sensible example of a democratic right. "We had a referendum and decided that you can all your asses bonds" is not "sensible procedure" that you did not claim anything beyond that. think my point was worth making? Because there's huge amount issues boiling down to poor coordination different states today, the nature of today's economy this will become increasingly common, and I think it's worth pointing out that simply insisting rights" interpreted as "doing the citizens want, rest the be doesn't really it. And this "interference with democracy" theme is really really common days, I bump into this sort of phrasing every other motbob article uses numbers dishonestly. "[T]the health costs EDCs Europe are between £113 £195 (between billion) year." is no mention that are a very small percentage that number. It doesn't that it's a small percentage. Arstechnica willingly led to believe that the impact of pesticides/herbicides in the hundreds of billions of Euros. These numbers also, notably, came long after negotiations mentioned. What was the scientific consensus on in 2013? ~~~ Tosh108 down the article there
 debts in bankruptcy in order tO get back on
Their FeeT. CoMpAnieS havE at least two difFErenT kinds of bankruptcy
depeNding On WHethER tHey caN be run aS A gOINg cOnCeRn oR nOT. BUt a FX-
DenOminateD debt is potEntIaLly an anchor oN YoUr country fOreVer. Look at the
argEntine "PaRi pASsu" fiAscO for eXample.

iMposinG an unpayaBlE Debt on A Country THAt ForcEs poverty on its citIZeNS
has a real and seRious cOsT In HUMan LifE. Wars have bEeN fougHT over thIS;
iT'S OFteN Argued that the Reparations DEbt ImposeD oN GeRMany afTer WW1 WaS A
coNtributing fActoR to WW2.

~~~
_yoseFk
I'm noT Saying I KNow what To do abOut UnpAyabLE sOvEreIgN DebT, JuSt tHAt
dEfaultinG oN sUch deBt is NOT A SensIblE exaMple oF a democratic rIghT. "We
hAD a rEfereNdum aNd deCiDed thAt you cAn all WiPe your asses with Our bOnds"
is proBabLy Not ThE "sensIBle banKruPtcY procedUre" that YOu mEnTION. I Did
not claim anythinG bEYOnD that.

Why Do I thiNK mY pOInt was woRtH maKing? bECause TherE'S a Huge amouNt of
isSUeS bOiling dOwN to pooR cOorDinAtion BEtweEn diffErent staTes toDAy, the
nature of tODay's economy enSUrES ThIS wilL beCome increasInglY CommOn, anD i
tHinK It's woRth poInTInG Out that simply insistInG on "demOcratIc rights"
interPreted as "doING Whatever The cITiZEns want, the rest Of the World be
damNEd" doesn't ReallY cut it. AnD this "inteRFErence wiTh dEmoCraCy" tHEMe Is
really reallY COmmoN tHese dayS, I bUmp into ThiS soRt oF phRaSing every Other
weeK.

------
mOtBoB
THe aRticlE Uses numbErS prEtTy dIshonEStly.

"[T]tHe heaLth cOsTs OF EDcs to EurOPe ARE betWeEn £113 BillIon AnD £195
billIon (bETweEn €160 and €277 biLlion) everY yeAR."

TheRe Is No mentiOn that pesticiDeS/herbicideS aRe a Very smALL percentAge of
that number. It doesn't MAtter whEthEr it's "StilL bad" that iT's a Small
pErcENtage. ARstechNica wIlLinGLY led mE TO bEliEvE that the imPACt oF
pestIcIdes/HerbiciDes was in the hundredS Of bIllions of EuroS.

ThEse nUMBeRs aLSo, NOtaBlY, CamE OUt long after the 2013 nEgotiationS
mENtIoned. What wAS thE sCientifIc conseNsus oN eDCs in 2013?

~~~
TOsh108
FurtheR down the aRtIcle THEre
 debts in bankruptcy in or der to get  back  on 
th ei r fe et.Companies have at l east two different kin ds of  b a nkru p tc y
dep endingo nw h eth er  t hey  c a nbe ru n a s a goi ng concern  or  n ot. But a FX - 
d enominated  de bt is potent ial ly anan cho r  on y our  coun try fo r ever.Look at t he Argent i ne "par i pa ssu"  fiasco for examp l e. 
Imposing an u npayab le de b t  on  acountry th at  forc e s pover t yo n its citizens
hasa real ands eri ous co st  in humanlife.  W a rshave been f ough t over th is;
it ' s often arguedthat t herep arat i on sdeb ti mpo s ed  on Ger many aft er  W W1 wa s ac o n t ribu tin g fa ctorto WW2.

~~~_yo sefk I'm  notsayin g Ikn ow wh at todo ab ou t unpayable sov erei gn debt,jus ttha tdefau l ting o n s uch  debt i s not a sen si b l e  e xample of a democr at i c  r ight. "W e
hada  r ef e rendum a nd  de cide d thatyouc an  all wip e your as se s withou r bond s" 
is  pr obabl y  not  the " sensible  bank r uptcy procedur e " that you me n ti o n .I  did 
no t claim any thin g  bey ondt ha t.Why d o I t hi n km y point was worth m ak ing? B ecaus e there's a h uge amount o f 
issuesboil i ng down to poor c oordi nation bet w een diff erent  statestoday, th e nature o f t oda y's  ec o n om y ensures thi s will  b ecome i ncr easingl y c omm on,  an dI
think i t's wort hpo in ti ngout t h at simpl yins is tin g on" democr aticrigh ts "i nte rpreted as " doin gwh atev erth e cit izen s  wa nt, the  rest ofthe worl dbe 
damned " doesn't rea ll y cut it.An d t his "i n t erferenc e with democracy" theme is
real lyreall y co mmon thes e d ays, I  bu m p into  thissortof  ph r a singe v er y o th er
week.
- - --- -
mot bo b
Th e artic le uses numbers pr e tty  dishonestly. 

" [T]t h e  h eal t hc ost so f E D C s to Europe are  between £ 11 3  b illion and £19 5billion  (betwe en €1 6 0 and € 277 billi on) every  y ear. " 
Th ere is nomentionthat pest i cides / he rbici des  are a  v ery  smal l perc e nta ge of 
thatnu mber.It do es n't matt er whether it's "stillbad" t hat i t's  a smallper c ent age. Arst echn ica willin gly  le d metob eliev e th a tthe impac t of pesticide s /h erb i c id es was in t h e hun dreds  of billio ns o f Euros.

These n u mbers also, no tabl y ,  ca meo ut l on g after the 20 13ne g o tiations 
m entioned. W hat wasth e  scie ntific  conse nsus on E DC s  in 20 13?
~~ ~
Tosh108 
Fu rt h er down  t he articl e th er e
 debts_in bankruptcy_in order to get_back on
their_feet._Companies have_at_least two different_kinds of bankruptcy
depending_on whether they can_be run as_a_going concern or not. But a FX-
denominated debt is potentially an anchor on your_country_forever. Look_at_the
Argentine_"pari passu" fiasco for example.

Imposing_an unpayable debt on a_country that_forces poverty on its citizens
has a real and_serious_cost in human_life. Wars have been fought over this;
it's often argued_that the reparations debt imposed on_Germany after WW1_was_a
contributing_factor to WW2.

~~~
_yosefk
I'm not_saying I know what to do_about unpayable sovereign debt, just that
defaulting_on such debt is not a sensible_example of a democratic right. "We
had_a referendum and decided that_you can_all wipe your asses with_our bonds"
is probably_not the_"sensible bankruptcy procedure"_that you mention. I did
not claim_anything beyond that.

Why_do I think my point was_worth_making? Because there's_a_huge_amount of
issues_boiling down to_poor_coordination between_different_states today, the
nature of today's economy_ensures_this will become increasingly common, and I
think_it's worth pointing out_that_simply insisting on "democratic_rights"
interpreted as "doing whatever the_citizens want, the rest of the_world be
damned"_doesn't really_cut it. And this "interference with democracy" theme is
really really common_these days, I bump into this_sort of phrasing every_other
week.

------
motbob
The article_uses_numbers pretty dishonestly.

"[T]the_health_costs of_EDCs to Europe are between £113 billion_and £195
billion_(between €160 and €277 billion) every_year."

There is no mention_that_pesticides/herbicides are a very small percentage_of
that number. It doesn't matter whether_it's "still bad" that it's_a_small
percentage._Arstechnica willingly led me to_believe that the impact of
pesticides/herbicides was_in the hundreds_of billions of Euros.

These numbers also, notably,_came_out long after the 2013 negotiations
mentioned._What_was the scientific consensus on EDCs_in_2013?

~~~
Tosh108
Further_down the article there