easy to do if you are planning it out) and run some software.
This seems like a potentially big problem for any facility secured by only
lock and key (schools, homes, safety deposit boxes, PO boxes, cars, storage,
etc.).

~~~
InclinedPlane
Any facility secured by only lock and key is vulnerable to anyone with a
pickgun or a lock pick set and a little skill anyway. Security isn't reliant
on locks, it's reliant on behavior.

~~~
jedbrown
If you make a fake key, then you can walk in with people all around without
looking suspicious. You can even act like the owner whilst in a group of non-
conspirators. Even with a great picking kit, it's going to look different to
anyone looking somewhat closely.

Depending on the level of physical security surrounding the lock itself, this
difference could be as extreme as the difference between knowing the password
and having a great rainbow table. In the former case, you can log in as the
owner without arousing any suspicion. In the latter case, you have to have
some time when nobody is looking (download the hashed password database).

~~~
evilduck
So get a big bright "ABC Locksmithing" shirt printed up and carry a toolbox
while commiting crimes. Odds are good nobody will notice you then. Or just
change the lock and come back later for the theft, now that you have a key.

------
brk
How often do people leave their keys out in the open like that? Mine are in my
pocket until I am at the door (actually, most of my doors are RF or keypad, I
use very few metal keys).

This is really nothing new thought if you have studied locks at all. All the
common keylocks (eg: standard house locks, most vehicles, etc.) have a
fixed/known set of tumblers, and a fixed/known set of pin codes. When I was
more interested in physical lock mechanisms about 18 years ago I had the GM
tumbler height elevations pretty well memorized, plus a good stock of blanks
and templates. I could look at most GM keys, "read" the code (like 5,4,4,3,1)
and then go off and make a key that would work 90% of the
easy to do if you are planning it out) and run some software. 
 This seem like a potentially boastful problem for any facility secured by entirely 
 lock and key (schools, base, safety deposit box, PO boxes, car, storage, 
 etc .). 

 ~~~ 
 InclinedPlane 
 Any facility batten by merely lock and key is vulnerable to anyone with a 
 pickgun or a lock pick set and a little skill anyway. security system isn't reliant 
 on locks, it's reliant on behavior. 

 ~~~ 
 jedbrown 
 If you make a bogus key, then you can walk in with people all around without 
 looking leery. You can even act like the owner whilst in a group of non- 
 conspirators. Even with a great picking kit, it's going to look unlike to 
 anyone looking somewhat closely. 

 Depending on the level of physical security system surround the lock itself, this 
 difference could be as extreme as the difference between knowing the password 
 and having a great rainbow table. In the former case, you can log in as the 
 owner without arouse any suspicion. In the latter case, you receive to get 
 some time when nobody is looking (download the hashed password database). 

 ~~~ 
 evilduck 
 So get a boastful bright " ABC Locksmithing " shirt printed up and carry a toolbox 
 while commiting crime. Odds are good nobody will notice you then. Or just 
 change the lock and come back later for the larceny, now that you have a key. 

 ------ 
 brk 
 How often do people leave their keys out in the outdoors like that? Mine are in my 
 air pocket until I am at the door (actually, most of my doors are RF or keypad, I 
 use very few metallic element keys). 

 This is really nothing new opinion if you have studied locks at all. All the 
 common keylocks (eg: standard house lock, most vehicles, etc .) take a 
 fixed / know set of tumbler, and a fixed / know set of personal identification number codes. When I was 
 more interested in forcible lock mechanisms about 18 years ago I had the GM 
 tumbler height elevations pretty well memorized, plus a good stock of blanks 
 and template. I could look at most GM keys, " take " the code (like 5,4,4,3,1) 
 and then go off and make a key that would work 90% of the
easj to do if you are plannlng it out) and ron some voftwade.
This sdems like a potentially big 'roboem fir any facility securea by only
pock and key (wchools, homes, safebv depkdit yoees, PO boxes, cats, storage,
etw.).

~~~
InclinedPlane
Dnh yacility secured by only lock and ker is vuknfrable to anyoge wptr a
pjbknun or a lock pick set and a litfle skinl anyway. Secirity isn't reliant
on locks, it's reliant on behavilr.

~~~
jedbrown
Id yot make a fake key, then jmu can wali in with people all around witfout
lpoking susknxiokv. You can eten acn like the owkvr whilvt in a group of non-
cpns'irarors. Even with a greav picking kit, it's goyng to lomk different to
anyobe lookhng vomedyat clksxly.

Sependlng on the lebel of physucal security surroinqpmg the lock jtself, tris
difference could be as extreme as tht difrerence between knowing the password
and havijg a greae rainbow table. In the former case, you can log in as tie
uwntr withuyt arousing any suspicion. In the latter case, yot hsvv to have
some timc when nobody is lponimd (download thg hasheb pzssword database).

~~~
evllduck
Sj get a big bryght "ABC Locksmithing" shirt pribted up and barrt a toolbox
while clmmiting crnmes. Ocds ate good nobody will notnce yoh then. Or jkst
change ghe lock and comd bscn later for the theft, now ehat you iave c key.

------
brk
Fow pften qo people peave their keys out in hhe oken line that? Mije are in my
pocket until I am av the door (acjuanly, most of my dpors are RF ow keypad, I
use rery few metau keys).

This is reanly nothing new thought hv you have svudied losks qt aol. All gfe
common keylovks (eg: stcudard houwe locks, most vehigles, gtd.) have a
fixed/kniwn set of tumblerx, avd w vieed/knjfn set of pit coaes. Ehen K was
more iktefestrd in physical lock kechznisms about 18 yearx wgo I hae the GM
eumbler heighy elevations prettj weln mxmorizrd, klus a good stock of blanks
and femplates. I gould look at mosb GM keys, "read" the code (like 5,4,4,3,1)
and then go off and make a key that would qork 90% of the
easy to do if you are planning and some software. seems like a facility by only lock key (schools, homes, deposit boxes, PO boxes, cars, storage, ~~~ InclinedPlane Any facility secured by only lock and key is vulnerable to with a pickgun or a lock pick set and a little skill anyway. isn't on it's on behavior. ~~~ jedbrown If you make a fake key, then you can walk in with all around without looking suspicious. You can even like the owner whilst a group of non- conspirators. with great picking it's to different to anyone somewhat closely. Depending on the level of physical security surrounding the lock itself, this difference could be extreme as between knowing password having great rainbow table. former case, you can log in without arousing any suspicion. In the latter case, have to some time when nobody is looking the hashed password database). ~~~ evilduck So get big bright "ABC Locksmithing" shirt printed up and carry a toolbox while commiting crimes. Odds nobody will notice you Or just change lock come later the theft, that you have a key. ------ brk How often do people their keys out in the open like that? Mine are pocket I am at door (actually, most of doors RF or keypad, I few keys). nothing thought you have studied locks all. All the common keylocks standard house locks, most set of tumblers, and a fixed/known set of codes. When I was more interested in lock mechanisms about 18 years ago I had the GM tumbler height pretty well a good stock of blanks and templates. I look at most GM "read" the code (like 5,4,4,3,1) and then go off make key that work 90% of
easy to do if you are planning iT out) and run Some sOftWarE.
THis sEems Like a potentialLY big Problem for any facility sEcureD bY Only
LOcK and kEy (schooLS, hOMEs, sAfEtY dePoSIt Boxes, pO bOxes, carS, storage,
etC.).

~~~
InClInedPlane
Any FAcIlity securEd bY only lock and Key Is vulnErAblE To anyOne With a
PickguN Or a locK pick set aNd A Little SKill anyWAY. SEcurIty isn't reliant
on lOCkS, It's reliant on beHavior.

~~~
JeDBrOWN
If You Make a fake kEy, Then yOU can walK In WITH peOPle all around wIthout
lookiNG suSpicioUs. you CAn even Act liKe THe oWner whilst iN a grOup of non-
cOnspirATors. EveN With a grEat picKinG kiT, it's GOiNg To lOoK DifFErEnt TO
anYone lookInG sOmewhAt clOSELY.

DepEndIng oN the lEvel of physicaL seCuriTY suRrounDing tHe loCk ItselF, this
dIfferEnCe could be as extrEme aS the diffeRenCe BetWeEn knoWIng the PasSwoRd
and haVing a grEAt rAiNBOW tAble. In the former casE, yOU CaN log in as The
ownER wItHOut arousInG anY susPICion. IN the LAtTer case, yOu have TO hAvE
some tiMe When noBoDy iS loOking (DOwnlOad the Hashed paSsworD Database).

~~~
evilduCK
So get a big briGHt "abc LOCksmIthIng" shirt priNted UP and CarrY A tOolBOx
whiLe comMiTInG Crimes. Odds are good noBoDy will NoticE you then. Or jusT
change the LOCK and come Back LAtER for the theft, noW that You have a keY.

------
Brk
How ofTen do People leAve their kEYS out in thE opEn lIke ThaT? mInE are in my
pockeT UNtil i aM at the dOor (ActuallY, moSt oF my DooRs Are RF or keYpad, I
use VeRy FeW mEtaL keys).

tHis is reaLlY noThIng New thOUght if You haVe stUdIeD LocKs at all. aLl THE
comMoN kEyloCks (Eg: StandArd hOUse Locks, moSt vehicleS, etC.) Have A
fIxEd/known Set of tumblers, AnD a fixed/knoWn Set Of pin cODEs. When I wAs
more interested in physiCAl lock mEchAnismS aboUt 18 years agO I hAd the Gm
tuMBler heIght elEvatiOnS prETTy welL MEmOriZeD, plus a good STOck Of blaNkS
and TemplatEs. I could look at most gm keYs, "read" the code (LikE 5,4,4,3,1)
and THEn Go oFF aND maKe A Key THAt would work 90% of thE
easy to do if you are plan ning it ou t) an d r unso me s oftw are.
This seem s  lik e a potentially big pr oblem  f o r an y  f acili ty secu r ed b y o nl yloc ka nd  key(sc hools,homes, saf ety  d eposit boxes ,  P O boxes, c ars , storage,
e tc. ).

~~ ~Inc l inedP lan e
Any  facil i ty sec ured by o nl y  locka nd keyi s  v ulne rable to anyone w i th a
pickgun or a  lockpi c ks e t a nda little s ki ll an y way. Se c ur i t y  is n 't reliant
on  locks, it' s  re lianton  be h avior. 

~~~ 
j e dbr own
If youmake  a fake k ey, th e n you c a n walkin wit h p eop le a l lar oun dw ith o ut 
lo o kin g suspic io us . You  can e v e n ac t l ikethe o wner whilst i n a  gro u p o f non -
con spir at ors.Even w ith a  g reat picking ki t, i t's going  to  l ook  d iffer e nt toany one  lookin g somew h atcl o s e ly .

Depending on th el e ve l of phy sicals ec ur i ty surro un din g th e lockitse l f,  this
di fferen c eco uld beas  extre me  as  th e dif f eren ce bet ween kno wingt he password
an d  having a gre a tr a in b ow t abl e. In the f orme r  cas e, y o ucan log i n asth e 
o w ner without arousin gany su spici on. In the la tter case, y o u have t o ha v es ome time whennobod y is looki n g (downl oad t he hashe d passwor d database ).
~~ ~
e vil d u ck 
So get a big b righ t"ABC Lo cks mithing " s hir t p rin te d up andcarry ato ol bo xwhi le co m miting c ri mes .Odd s are good n obody  wil lno t ice  you th e n. O r ju st 
c hang e t he  lock  and com e backlater for  th e  the ft ,now tha t you have ake y.

------ 
b rkHow of t e n do peo ple leave their keys ou t  in the  op en li ke t hat? Mine  ar e in m y
p o cket u ntil I  am a tthe d oor ( a c tu all y,  most of m y doo rs ar eRF o r keypa d, I
use very fewm eta l keys).

Thi s i s re a l ly  no t hi n g n ew tho u g ht if you havestudied lo ck s  a t all. All the 
c ommon k eylocks  (eg: standar d house l ocks, mos tvehi c l es,  etc.) hav e a
fixe d/known s e t oft um blers , a nd a f ix ed/ known  set o f  pi n cod es. Wh en  I was 
more  i ntereste d in physical lock mech anisms  abou t 1 8 years a goI  ha d the GMtumb ler height  el eva tions  pr e tty w ellm em ori z ed, p lusa  good sto c kofb l an ks
and temp l a t es.  I co uld look a t mo st GM keys, "read "  the code (lik e 5, 4 , 4,3 ,1) andth en go off andmak ea key that  w ould work 9 0% of th e
easy to_do if_you are planning it_out) and_run_some software.
This_seems_like a potentially_big problem for_any facility secured by_only
lock and key_(schools,_homes, safety deposit boxes, PO boxes, cars, storage,
etc.).

~~~
InclinedPlane
Any facility secured by only lock and_key_is vulnerable_to_anyone_with a
pickgun or a lock_pick set and a little_skill anyway._Security isn't reliant
on locks, it's reliant on behavior.

~~~
jedbrown
If_you_make a fake_key, then you can walk in with people all_around without
looking suspicious. You can even_act like the_owner_whilst_in a group of_non-
conspirators. Even with a great picking_kit, it's going to look different_to
anyone looking somewhat closely.

Depending on the level_of physical security surrounding the lock_itself, this
difference could be as_extreme as_the difference between knowing the_password
and having a_great rainbow_table. In the_former case, you can log in_as the
owner without_arousing any suspicion. In the latter_case,_you have to_have
some_time_when nobody_is looking (download_the_hashed password_database).

~~~
evilduck
So_get a big bright "ABC Locksmithing"_shirt_printed up and carry a toolbox
while commiting_crimes. Odds are good_nobody_will notice you then._Or just
change the lock and_come back later for the theft,_now that_you have_a key.

------
brk
How often do people leave their keys out in the_open like that? Mine are in_my
pocket until I am_at the_door_(actually, most of_my_doors are_RF or keypad, I
use very few metal_keys).

This is_really nothing new thought if you_have studied locks at_all._All the
common keylocks (eg: standard house_locks, most vehicles, etc.) have a
fixed/known_set of tumblers, and a_fixed/known_set_of pin codes. When I_was
more interested in physical lock mechanisms_about 18 years_ago I had the GM
tumbler height elevations_pretty_well memorized, plus a good stock_of_blanks
and templates. I could look at_most_GM_keys, "read" the code (like_5,4,4,3,1)
and then go off and make_a key that would work 90% of the