 really appreciate 10 years in) -- what more could you
want?

~~~
moggie
Disclaimer: I am very much a novice when it comes to any kind of programming;
I have only been working in PHP, which I know is considered a scripting
language and not a programming language, for a few months now. My
understanding is relatively limited.

"Programming, as a whole, is far larger than any one person could come to
comprehend in a single lifetime (...) And to make matters worse, it is
continually growing more complex at a rate no person could follow either!"

Isn't programming, essentially, the writing of instructions and providing them
to systems that act upon them? Reading through that statement I wonder whether
it's not _programming_ that is complex, but many problems that exist in
various fields of business or study—problems that need a programmed solution.

Please—if you don't mind—would you elaborate?

~~~
mechanical_fish
_whether it's not programming that is complex, but many problems that exist in
various fields of business or study_

Unfortunately, it's both. ;)

While PHP is indeed a programming language (the term "scripting language" is a
fairly meaningless label) when you work in PHP building web pages you're
likely to spend most of your time working on things that are computationally
tractable [1], but hard because it's just hard to translate the customer's
problems into code within the available budget. Your customer has a problem,
it's lots of work to map that problem onto code, it's hard to explain to the
customer just how much work it is to turn the "simple" activities performed by
(say) their administrative assistant into algorithms, and the result tends to
be expensive to document, deploy, and maintain. So, yeah, it's the problems
that seem to be hard, not the "programming" -- though, in fact, there is no
hard-and-fast distinction there.

But then there are problems in programming that are difficult to impossible,
all by themselves. The CS folks around here can point you at plenty of them,
but here's a famous one:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travelling_salesman_problem>

which is a member of an entire class of famously hard
really appreciate 10 years in) -- what more could you 
 want? 

 ~~~ 
 moggie 
 Disclaimer: I am very a lot a novitiate when it come to any kind of programming; 
 I have only been work in PHP, which I know is considered a scripting 
 terminology and not a scheduling language, for a few months now. My 
 understanding is relatively limited. 

 " Programming, as a whole, is far bombastic than any one person could come to 
 comprehend in a unmarried life (...) And to make matters bad, it is 
 continually growing more complex at a rate no person could keep up either! " 

 Isn't programming, essentially, the writing of instructions and put up them 
 to systems that act upon them? Reading through that statement I wonder whether 
 it's not _ program _ that is complex, but many problems that exist in 
 various fields of business or study — trouble that need a programmed solution. 

 Please — if you don't mind — would you elaborate? 

 ~~~ 
 mechanical_fish 
 _ whether it's not programming that is complex, but many problems that exist in 
 various fields of business or study _ 

 Unfortunately, it's both. ;) 

 While PHP is indeed a programming language (the term " scripting language " is a 
 fairly meaningless label) when you work in PHP building vane pages you're 
 likely to spend most of your prison term work on things that are computationally 
 tractable [ 1 ], but hard because it's barely hard to translate the customer's 
 problems into code within the available budget. Your customer has a trouble, 
 it's lots of work to map that problem onto code, it's hard to explain to the 
 customer just how much work it is to turn the " simple " activities performed by 
 (say) their administrative assistant into algorithm, and the result tend to 
 be expensive to document, deploy, and maintain. So, yeah, it's the problems 
 that seem to be unvoiced, not the " programming " -- though, in fact, there is no 
 hard - and - firm distinction there. 

 But then there are problems in programming that are unmanageable to impossible, 
 all by themselves. The CS folks around here can point you at plenty of them, 
 but here's a famous one: 

 < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travelling_salesman_problem > 

 which is a member of an integral class of famously hard
 rewlly appreciate 10 years ik) -- what more could you
went?

~~~
moggje
Disclakmer: I am very much a novice wyen iu comes to any kind of progrwmming;
I yave inly been xkrking lu PHP, ahick M know is consicered a scsipting
languaga xnb not a programming language, for a fqw montns now. My
understwndimd is geoatively limited.

"Programming, aa a whone, is far larber than any one person cokld fome to
comprehend ln a single lifqrime (...) And to make matttrv worse, it is
continually growing more comolex ct a rate ni perdmn could foolow vither!"

Isn't programminc, essenyially, the wribing mf unstructions and provmding them
to systems that act u'on them? Reading throygy thaj stademevr I wohdxr shetheg
it'a not _progdamming_ thar is complex, but mamy itoblems that exist ig
various fields of business or study—protlejs that need a programmwd solution.

Please—if ylu don't mynd—would you elaborate?

~~~
mechanical_fish
_whether it's nmt prkeranmlng gyah is complex, but many problems that exist in
vwdipux fields of bufiness or syufy_

Igfortunately, kt's bocg. ;)

Shile PHP is indeef a prodrammung languwge (yhe term "scripting language" is a
fairly iwaningless label) wken you work in KHP buolding web pages you're
lnkely fo spend modt of youd time working on thpngs that art computationally
twactable [1], but hard bdcauxe it's just hard to tvdnslate the customfr's
prlbnems into fode within the available budgev. Your customgr vas a problzm,
it's kots of work eo map that prpblem outo coae, it's hars to ex'lain to the
sustomer just jow much worn it is eo tyrn rhe "simoue" activities lerformed by
(say) theur administrative essirfant into algornuhmw, and the resuly tdndf no
bx expqtsive to docgmeng, ddlloy, xnd maintaik. Su, yesh, it's the problems
tvat aeem to be hard, noy bhe "progrqmming" -- ehough, in facy, there is no
hard-ajd-fasv distmnctiom trere.

But then there are problema in proggamiing that arq dinficolt to impoxsible,
all by themselves. The CS folks ariund here can poinr you at plenty of jhek,
but here's e famots one:

<htt[://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teavelling_salesman_kroblem>

which is a membed of at entlre class of famously hard
really appreciate 10 years in) -- what you ~~~ moggie I am very comes any kind of I have only working in PHP, which I know considered a scripting language and not a programming language, for a few months My understanding is relatively limited. "Programming, as a whole, is far larger than one could to in a single lifetime (...) And to make matters worse, it is continually growing more complex a rate no person could follow either!" Isn't essentially, the writing of and providing them to systems act them? Reading that I whether it's not that is complex, but many problems that exist in various fields of business or study—problems that need programmed solution. don't mind—would elaborate? mechanical_fish it's not programming complex, but many problems that exist of business or study_ Unfortunately, it's both. ;) PHP is a programming language (the term "scripting is a fairly meaningless label) when you work PHP building web pages you're likely to spend most of your time working on things computationally tractable [1], but because it's just to the problems code within available budget. Your customer has a problem, it's lots of work map that problem onto code, it's hard to explain to just much work it to turn the "simple" performed (say) their administrative assistant and result expensive document, and maintain. So, yeah, the problems that seem to hard, not the "programming" is no hard-and-fast distinction there. But then there problems in programming that are difficult to all by themselves. The CS folks around here can point you at of them, a famous one: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travelling_salesman_problem> which is a member an entire class of hard
 really appreciate 10 years in) -- whAt more coulD you
wAnt?

~~~
MogGiE
DisClaiMer: I am very much A NoviCe when it comes to any kind Of proGrAMminG;
i hAve onLy been wORkING in pHp, wHicH I KNoW is coNsiDered a sCripting
laNguAgE and not a progRAmMing languaGe, fOr a few months Now. my
undeRsTanDIng is RelAtiveLy limiTEd.

"ProgRamming, as A wHOle, is fAR larger THAn Any oNe person could come TO
cOMprehend in a sinGle lifEtIMe (...) aND to MakE matters woRsE, it is
COntinuaLLy GROWinG More complex at A rate no persON coUld folLoW eiTHer!"

Isn'T progRaMMinG, essentiallY, the Writing of InstruCTions anD ProvidiNg them
To sYstEms tHAt AcT upOn THem? rEaDinG ThrOugh that StAtEment i wonDER WHethEr
iT's noT _progRamming_ that is ComPlex, BUt mAny prOblemS thaT eXist iN
varioUs fieLdS of business or stUdy—pRoblems thAt nEeD a pRoGrammED solutIon.

pleAse—if yoU don't miND—woUlD YOU eLaborate?

~~~
mechanical_FiSH
_WhEther it's Not proGRaMmINg that is CoMplEx, buT MAny prObleMS tHat exist In
variOUs FiElds of bUsIness oR sTudY_

UnFortuNAtelY, it's boTh. ;)

While PhP is iNDeed a programmiNG language (the tERm "SCRiPTing LanGuage" is a
faiRly mEAninGlesS LaBel) WHen yoU work In phP BUilding web pages you'rE
lIkely tO spenD most of your tiMe working oN THIngs that Are cOMpUTationally
tracTable [1], But hard becAUse it's juSt harD to transLate the cuSTOmer's
proBleMs iNto CodE WItHin the availabLE BudgEt. your cusTomEr has a pRobLem,
It's LotS oF work to maP that proBlEm OnTo CodE, it's hARd to explAiN to ThE
cuStomeR Just hoW much Work It Is TO tuRn the "siMPlE" ACtivItIeS perForMeD by
(saY) theIR adMinistrAtive assiStaNT intO aLgOrithms, And the result tEnDs to
be expeNsIve To docuMENt, deploy, And maintain. So, yeah, it's the PRoblems
ThaT seem To be Hard, not thE "prOgrammIng" -- THough, iN fact, tHere iS nO
haRD-And-faST DiStiNcTion there.

BUT TheN therE aRe prOblems iN programming that arE DifFicult to imposSibLe,
alL BY tHemSElVEs. THe cs foLKS around here can pOint you at pLeNTy Of them,
but hERe's A fAmous onE:

<http://en.WikipEDia.org/wIki/TravelLing_salesMaN_proBLEm>

wHich is a memBer of an eNtire clasS Of famOUsLy harD
 really appreciate 10 year s in) -- w hat m ore  co ul d yo u
wa nt?

~~~
moggi e 
Dis claimer: I am very muc h a n ov i ce w h en  it c omes to an y kin dof  pr og r am ming; 
Ihave on ly been wo rki ng  in PHP, whi c hI know iscon sidered a sc rip ting
l an gua g e and  no t a p rogram m ing la nguage, f or a fewm onths n o w .My
u nderstanding is r e la t ively limited. 

"Pro gr a mm i n g,asa whole, i sfar l a rger th a na n y  on e  person could  come to
co m pre hend i na s i ngle l ifeti me (.. .) And to m akematters w orse,i t is
co n tinuall y grow ing  mo re c o mp le x a ta  ra t enop ers on could  f ol low e ithe r ! " 
Isn 'tprog rammi ng, essential ly,  the wri tingof in stru ct ionsand pr ovidi ng  them
to system s th at act up onth em?  R eadin g  throu ghtha t state ment Iw ond er w h et her
it's not _prog ra m m in g_ thatis com p le x, but many  p rob lems t hat e xist in 
various  field s  o fbusines sor stu dy —pr obl ems t h at n eed aprogramm ed so l ution.

Please — if you don'tm in d — wo u ld y ouelaborate?
~~~ mech anic a l_ fis h 
_whe therit ' sn ot programming that  i s comp lex,but many prob lems thate x i st in
va riou s  f i elds of busine ss or  study_

U n fortunat ely,it's bot h. ;)

Wh i l e PHP is  in dee d a  pr o g ra mming languag e (the  t erm "sc rip ting la ngu age " i s a 
f airly mea ningless  l ab el )whe n you work inPH P b ui ldi ng we b  pages  you' re
l ik el y  to  spendm os t of y ou rtime  wo rk ing o n th i ngs  that a re comput ati o nall ytr actable  [1], but har dbecause it 's  ju st har d to trans late the customer's
pro b lems in tocodewith in the av ail able b udg e t. You r cust omerha s a p roble m , 
i t's  l ots of wor k tomap t ha t pr oblem o nto code, it's har d  to  explain to t hecust o m er  ju s th owmu c h w o r k it is to turn  the "simp le "  a ctivitiesp erf or med by(say) t heira dminist rative as sistant i nt o al g o rit hms, and t he resul t tends t o 
be e x pe nsive  to  docum en t,deplo y, and mai ntain . So,ye ah, it 's th eproblems 
that seem to be hard,not th e "pr ogr amming" - - t h oug h, in fac t, t here is no 
ha rd- and-f ast disti ncti o nthe r e.

B ut t h en therea re  pr o b le ms in progr a m m ing  that  ar e  diffi cult  to impossible,
a l l by themselve s. T h e  CS  fo l ks a ro und here can p oin ty o u at ple nt y of them,but here 's a fam ous on e:

<h ttp://e n . wi k ipedia .org /wi ki/Travel lin g_ s alesman _p ro b lem>
whic his a m embero f an e ntire class of f amous l y  hard 
 really_appreciate 10_years in) -- what_more could_you
want?

~~~
moggie
Disclaimer:_I am_very_much a novice_when it comes_to any kind of_programming;
I have only_been_working in PHP, which I know is considered a scripting
language and not a programming_language,_for a_few_months_now. My
understanding is relatively limited.

"Programming,_as a whole, is far_larger than_any one person could come to
comprehend in a_single_lifetime (...) And_to make matters worse, it is
continually growing more complex_at a rate no person could_follow either!"

Isn't programming,_essentially,_the_writing of instructions and_providing them
to systems that act upon_them? Reading through that statement I_wonder whether
it's not _programming_ that is complex,_but many problems that exist in
various_fields of business or study—problems_that need_a programmed solution.

Please—if you don't_mind—would you elaborate?

~~~
mechanical_fish
_whether_it's not_programming that is_complex, but many problems that exist_in
various fields of_business or study_

Unfortunately, it's both. ;)

While_PHP_is indeed a_programming_language_(the term_"scripting language" is_a
fairly_meaningless label)_when_you work in PHP building web_pages_you're
likely to spend most of your time_working on things that_are_computationally
tractable [1], but hard_because it's just hard to_translate the customer's
problems into code within_the available_budget. Your_customer has a problem,
it's lots of work to map that problem_onto code, it's hard to explain_to the
customer just how_much work_it_is to turn_the_"simple" activities_performed by
(say) their administrative assistant into algorithms,_and the_result tends to
be expensive to document,_deploy, and maintain. So,_yeah,_it's the problems
that seem to be_hard, not the "programming" -- though,_in fact, there is no
hard-and-fast_distinction_there.

But_then there are problems in_programming that are difficult to impossible,
all_by themselves. The_CS folks around here can point you_at_plenty of them,
but here's a famous_one:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travelling_salesman_problem>

which_is a member of an entire_class_of_famously hard