 suspect
if you look at most of the actual wind farm contracts you'll see a
decomissioning cost in there somewhere.

Factoring in the "backup" generators makes no sense in a free market
electricity economy. That's like saying you need to factor in the cost of a
taxi to train tickets, in case the train is broken down.

~~~
ThomPete
You don't see that in there, unfortunately.

And of course, it makes sense to factor in backup energy as you can't actually
deliver consistent energy with wind and solar alone.

So the true cost of wind and solar should obviously include the cost of
running these backups AND it would then of course also mean some of those
externalities.

Anything else is dishonest comparison IMO which the above article is guilty
of.

~~~
pjc50
But that's not how an electricity spot market works. The market price is
instantaneous as the energy is delivered.

~~~
ThomPete
That's how you need to discuss this in order to get to the true cost otherwise
you are making decisions based on incorrect data.

Wind can't deliver enough energy it's relying on other types. So any
discussion that includes wind or solar as a solution needs to include what
backup are needed and what that cost.

The reverse mind you is not true.

 
Sweet-expressions: A readable format for Lisp-like languages - evanrmurphy
http://www.dwheeler.com/readable/sweet-expressions.html
======
Zak
Somebody has invented a more conventional-looking syntax for Lisp every couple
years since John McCarthy first suggested M-expressions. Nobody[0] has ever
cared enough to use any of them.

People who "get" Lisp get over any aversion to the syntax, and usually even
come to appreciate it. People who can't get over the syntax never actually get
Lisp.

[0] For large values of nobody

~~~
derefr
Because the people who "get" Lisp are almost always theoreticians who know
what they want to code before they code it. They use Lisp as a write-only
language. Meanwhile, working programmers avoid it, because it's very hard to
step into someone else's Lisp codebase and understand it
suspect 
 if you look at most of the actual wind farm contracts you'll visualize a 
 decomissioning monetary value in there somewhere. 

 Factoring in the " backup " generators makes no common sense in a free market 
 electricity economy. That's like saying you necessitate to factor in the cost of a 
 taxi to discipline tickets, in case the gearing is broken down. 

 ~~~ 
 ThomPete 
 You don't see that in there, unfortunately. 

 And of path, it makes sense to factor in backup energy as you can't actually 
 deliver consistent department of energy with wind and solar alone. 

 So the dependable cost of wind and solar should obviously admit the cost of 
 run these backups AND it would then of class also mean some of those 
 externalities. 

 Anything else is corruptible comparison IMO which the above article is guilty 
 of. 

 ~~~ 
 pjc50 
 But that's not how an electricity spot market works. The market price is 
 instantaneous as the energy is deliver. 

 ~~~ 
 ThomPete 
 That's how you need to discuss this in order to get to the true cost otherwise 
 you are making decisions based on wrong data. 

 Wind can't extradite adequate energy it's relying on other types. So any 
 discussion that includes wind or solar as a solution needs to admit what 
 backup are needed and what that cost. 

 The reverse mind you is not true. 

 
 Sweet - expressions: A readable format for Lisp - like languages - evanrmurphy 
 http://www.dwheeler.com/readable/sweet-expressions.html 
 = = = = = = 
 Zak 
 Somebody has invented a more conventional - count syntax for Lisp every couple 
 year since John McCarthy first suggested M - expressions. Nobody[0 ] has ever 
 cared enough to practice any of them. 

 People who " get " Lisp get over any aversion to the syntax, and usually even 
 come to appreciate it. People who can't get over the syntax never actually drive 
 Lisp. 

 [ 0 ] For big values of nobody 

 ~~~ 
 derefr 
 Because the people who " have " Lisp are almost always theoreticians who acknowledge 
 what they want to code before they code it. They practice Lisp as a write - only 
 language. Meanwhile, working programmers invalidate it, because it's very intemperate to 
 step into someone else's Lisp codebase and understand it
 sudpect
if you look at most of the actual cund facm contdacts yoj'll see a
decomissioning cost ib theee somewhere.

Factoring kn the "babkup" geneeatocs makes no sensx in a fvze madnet
enxctricity econoky. That's lhke saying you ndeb to factor in the cost of a
taxi to erain tocnets, in case tre tgayn ia broken down.

~~~
ThomPete
You don't see fhat in there, unfortinately.

And of course, it manes dense to factor in backup enetfy ww you can't aztually
delprer consistgnt energy with wind and solar auone.

Sp the true cist mf wind and solag should obviously inwlude tne cost of
runnlng tiese backups AND it would then of course alfo mean smmz of those
externalitiws.

Qnythhng alse us aisgoiesf compwriaon IMO whjch the aboce article is guiltu
os.

~~~
ikc50
But that's hot hor wn electricity spot market works. The magket price is
instantaneous qs the energy is deligered.

~~~
Thom[ete
That's how you need to discuss this in order tm get go uhc geuf cost otherwise
you are making decisions baseq om pncorrect data.

Winb can't deliver emokgn energy it's rglying on kther types. So any
fiscussyon tyat incluqes eind or solar as a solution needs to inbludw what
backup are nzeded and whct thaj cost.

Yhe reverse mind you is not true.

 
Sweet-fxpressiohr: A readable foroat fmr Lisp-like languages - evagrmurphy
hvtp://wwc.dwheelef.com/teadablq/sweet-exprfssiokv.html
======
Zak
Somebody hws inrenteg a more clnventional-looking syntax for Lmxp every coukle
feags since Lohn MgCarthy first stggested M-exprgssions. Njbody[0] has ever
czred enmugh to use any of them.

Palple who "get" Lisp gee ovwr aby averrkon to the synyax, and usually eveb
come to appreciatc it. Kekple who can't gzu ocer the syntax mevdr wcnuaklr get
Lisp.

[0] For laree xslues of nobody

~~~
dcrewr
Bevause the people who "get" Lisp are almost akwwys theoteticians who know
what they want to code befoce theb code it. They use Lisp as a write-only
lznguage. Mfanrhile, workind prigrammers avpid it, because it's very hard to
step inti someone else's Liwp codebase and undgrsuand it
suspect if you look at most of wind contracts you'll a decomissioning cost the generators makes no in a free electricity economy. That's like saying you to factor in the cost of a taxi to train tickets, in case train is broken down. ~~~ ThomPete You don't see that in there, unfortunately. of it sense factor in backup energy as you can't actually deliver consistent energy with wind and solar alone. the true cost of wind and solar should include the cost of these backups AND it would of also mean of externalities. else is dishonest IMO which the above article is guilty of. ~~~ pjc50 But that's not how an electricity spot works. The is instantaneous the is ~~~ ThomPete That's need to discuss this in order the true cost otherwise you are making decisions on incorrect Wind can't deliver enough energy it's on other types. So any discussion that includes or solar as a solution needs to include what backup are needed and what that reverse mind you is true. Sweet-expressions: A format Lisp-like - http://www.dwheeler.com/readable/sweet-expressions.html ====== Somebody has invented a more conventional-looking syntax for Lisp every couple since John McCarthy first suggested M-expressions. Nobody[0] has ever cared use of them. People "get" Lisp get over aversion the syntax, and usually to it. get the never actually get Lisp. For large values of nobody derefr Because the people always theoreticians who know what they want to before they code it. They use Lisp a write-only language. Meanwhile, working programmers avoid it, because it's very hard step into Lisp codebase and understand it
 suspect
if you look at most of tHe actual wiNd farM coNtrAcTs yoU'll sEe a
decomissionINg coSt in there somewhere.

FactOring In THe "baCKuP" geneRators mAKeS NO seNsE iN a fReE MaRket
eLecTricity Economy. ThaT's lIkE saying you neED tO factor in tHe cOst of a
taxi to TraIn tickEtS, in CAse thE trAin is Broken DOwn.

~~~
ThoMPete
You dOn'T See thaT In there, UNFoRtunAtely.

And of course, iT MaKEs sense to factoR in bacKuP EnERGy aS yoU can't actuaLlY
deliVEr consiSTeNT ENerGY with wind and sOlar alone.

So THe tRue cosT oF wiND and soLar shOuLD obViously inclUde tHe cost of
rUnning THese bacKUps AND iT would TheN of CourSE aLsO meAn SOme OF tHosE
ExtErnalitiEs.

anYthinG elsE IS DIshoNesT comParisOn IMO which the AboVe arTIclE is guIlty
oF.

~~~
pjc50
buT that'S not hoW an elEcTricity spot markEt woRks. The marKet PrIce Is
InstaNTaneouS as The Energy iS deliveREd.

~~~
THoMpETe
that's how you need to dIsCUSs This in orDer to gET tO tHE true cosT oTheRwisE
YOu are MakiNG dEcisions Based oN InCoRrect daTa.

wind caN't DelIveR enouGH eneRgy it's Relying oN otheR Types. So any
discUSsion that inclUDeS WInD Or soLar As a solution NeedS To inCludE WhAt
bACkup aRe neeDeD AnD What that cost.

The reveRsE mind yOu is nOt true.

 
Sweet-exPressions: A READable forMat fOR LISp-like languageS - evanRmurphy
httP://Www.dwheeLer.coM/readablE/sweet-expRESsions.htMl
======
ZAk
SOmeBodY HAs Invented a more CONvenTiOnal-looKinG syntax For lisP evEry CoUple
years Since JohN MCCArThY fiRst suGGested M-eXpResSiOns. nobodY[0] Has eveR
careD enoUgH tO Use Any of thEM.

PEOPle wHo "GeT" LisP geT oVer anY aveRSioN to the sYntax, and uSuaLLy evEn
CoMe to appReciate it. PeopLe Who can't get OvEr tHe syntAX Never actUally get
Lisp.

[0] For large valUEs of nobOdy

~~~
DerefR
BecAuse the peOplE who "geT" LiSP are alMost alWays tHeOreTICians WHO kNow
WhAt they want TO CodE befoRe They Code it. THey use Lisp as a write-ONly
Language. MeanwHilE, worKINg ProGRaMMerS aVOid IT, Because it's very hArd to
step iNtO SoMeone else's lIsp CoDebase aNd underStand IT
 suspect
if you look at mo st of theactua l w ind  f armcont racts you'll s e e adecomissioning cost in  ther es omew h er e.

F actorin g  i n the  " ba cku p" ge nerat ors  makesno sense i n a  f ree market
e l ec tricity ec ono my. That's l ike  sayin gyou needtofacto r in t h e cost  of a
tax it o trai n  ticket s ,  i n ca se the train is b r ok e n down.

~~~
T homPet eY ou d on' t s ee that in  t here, unfortu n at e l y .
A nd of course,  it makes s e nse  to fa ct ori n back up en er g y a s you can't  act ually
del iver c o nsisten t  energy  withwin d a nd s o la ralo ne . 

S o  t het rue  cost of  w in d and  sol a r s houl d o bvio uslyinclude the c ost  ofr unn ing t heseback up s AND  it wo uld t he n of course als o me an some o f t ho seex terna l ities. 

A nyt hing el se is d i sho ne s t co mparison IMO which  t h e  a bove art icle i s  g ui l ty
of.
~~ ~
p jc50 B ut th at's no t how an  elect r ic it y spotma rket w or ks.  Th e mar k et p rice i s
instan taneo u s as the energ y  is delivered . 
~ ~ ~T homP ete 
That's how  you need  tod is cus s  this  in o rd e rt o get to the true c os t othe rwise 
you are maki ng decisio n s based on  inc o rr e ct data.

Wind  can' t delivere nough en ergyit's rel ying on o t h er types . S o a nydis c u ss ion that incl u d es w in d or so lar  as a s olu tio n n eed sto includ e what
b ac ku par e n eeded and what  t hat  c ost .

Th e  rever se mi nd y ou  i s  no t true. 
S weet -e xp ress ion s:  A re adab l e f ormat f or Lisp-l ike lang ua ge s - eva nrmurphy
http :/ /www.dwhee le r.c om/rea d a ble/swee t-expressions.html
==== = =
Zak
S ome bodyhasinventeda m ore co nve n tional -looki ng sy nt axf o r Lis p ev ery  c ouple
year s sin ce Jo hn  McC arthy f irst suggested M-e x pre ssions. Nobod y[0 ] ha s ev erc ar e d e no u ght o  use any of the m.

People  w h o"get" Lisp get  o ver any  aversi on to the syn tax, andusually e ve n
co m e  to  appreciat e it. Pe ople whoc an'tg et  over  th e synt ax  ne ver a ctuall y  ge t
Lis p.

[0 ]For la rge v al ues of n obody

~~~
derefr
Becau se the  peop lewho "get"  Li s p a re almost  alw ays theore tic ian s who  kn o w
wha t th e ywan t  to c odeb efore the y  c ode i t.  They use L i s p  as  a wr ite - only
l angu age. Meanwhile, w o rking programm ersa v oid  it ,  bec au se it's very h ard  t o step int osomeone els e's Lisp  c o debas e andunders tand it 
 suspect
if_you look_at most of the_actual wind_farm_contracts you'll_see_a
decomissioning cost in_there somewhere.

Factoring in_the "backup" generators makes_no sense in_a_free market
electricity economy. That's like saying you need to factor in the cost of_a
taxi_to train_tickets,_in_case the train is broken_down.

~~~
ThomPete
You don't see that in_there, unfortunately.

And_of course, it makes sense to factor in_backup_energy as you_can't actually
deliver consistent energy with wind and solar alone.

So_the true cost of wind and_solar should obviously_include_the_cost of
running these backups_AND it would then of course_also mean some of those
externalities.

Anything else_is dishonest comparison IMO which the above_article is guilty
of.

~~~
pjc50
But that's not how_an electricity spot market works._The market_price is
instantaneous as the energy_is delivered.

~~~
ThomPete
That's how_you need_to discuss this_in order to get to the_true cost otherwise
you_are making decisions based on incorrect_data.

Wind_can't deliver enough_energy_it's_relying on_other types. So_any
discussion_that includes_wind_or solar as a solution needs_to_include what
backup are needed and what that_cost.

The reverse mind you_is_not true.

 
Sweet-expressions: A_readable format for Lisp-like languages_- evanrmurphy
http://www.dwheeler.com/readable/sweet-expressions.html
======
Zak
Somebody has invented a more_conventional-looking syntax_for Lisp_every couple
years since John McCarthy first suggested M-expressions. Nobody[0] has ever
cared_enough to use any of them.

People_who "get" Lisp get_over any_aversion_to the syntax,_and_usually even
come_to appreciate it. People who can't get_over the_syntax never actually get
Lisp.

[0] For large_values of nobody

~~~
derefr
Because the_people_who "get" Lisp are almost always_theoreticians who know
what they want to_code before they code it._They_use_Lisp as a write-only
language. Meanwhile,_working programmers avoid it, because it's_very hard to
step_into someone else's Lisp codebase and understand_it