 concentrated in a much smaller number
of people.

The founders and implementors of the EU "project" used the term "ever tighter
integration" in their founding documents, where they laid out their vision for
a United States of Europe.

They even describe how they intended to implement this via a technique called
"gradualism". The idea being that big sweeping reforms would be rejected by
the individual polities, but that more gradual, subtle changes spread over
time could achieve the same effect without the same resitance. And we have
seen this in action over the past forty years.

A bit like the apochryphal boiling of a frog.

The problem is that this is in some sense subversive and in another,
presumptious that the EU project is desired and/or sensible. At some point the
frog metaphor breaks down and people begin to realize what is happening and
what has happened.

And in the UK at least, finally, we are beginning to see a debate being held
on the desirability of the EU being a _political_ union (rather than the more
prosaic free-trade area).

~~~
higherpurpose
All democratic republics are in dire need of an overhaul for the 21st century.
However, US and UK tend to be worse than many because of the first past the
post voting system.

~~~
minot
I feel bad for the voters in the UK. LD got trounced in this election but in
the previous two elections they had 22 and 23 percentage of votes.

In 2010, Conservatives had 47% of the seats with 36 percent of votes. Labor
had almost 40% with 29% of the votes. LD had 8% with 23% of votes. Even in
2015, they had 1.2% of seats with 7.9% of votes.

If you have almost a quarter of the population voting for you, you'd think you
can make things happen. What went wrong with the referendum? What could the
YES proponents have done differently? More importantly, has the damage been
done? How long do UK nationals have to be quiet about alternative voting now?

~~~
petercooper
We already had a referendum about it four years ago -
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_Alternative_Vote...](http://en.wikipedia.org
concentrated in a much smaller number 
 of citizenry. 

 The founder and implementors of the EU " project " used the term " always tighter 
 integration " in their founding document, where they laid out their vision for 
 a United States of Europe. 

 They even report how they intended to implement this via a proficiency called 
 " gradualism ". The idea being that big sweeping reforms would be rule out by 
 the individual polities, but that more gradual, subtle changes spread over 
 time could achieve the like effect without the same resitance. And we have 
 seen this in natural process over the past forty years. 

 A bit like the apochryphal boiling of a frog. 

 The trouble is that this is in some sense insurgent and in another, 
 presumptious that the EU project is desired and/or sensible. At some point the 
 frog metaphor breaks down and people begin to gain what is happening and 
 what has happened. 

 And in the UK at least, finally, we are beginning to see a debate being held 
 on the desirability of the EU being a _ political _ union (rather than the more 
 prosaic free - trade area). 

 ~~~ 
 higherpurpose 
 All democratic republics are in dire need of an overhaul for the twenty-first hundred. 
 However, US and UK tend to be worse than many because of the first past the 
 post vote organization. 

 ~~~ 
 minot 
 I feel bad for the voter in the UK. LD got trounced in this election but in 
 the former two elections they had 22 and 23 percentage of vote. 

 In 2010, Conservatives had 47% of the seats with 36 percent of votes. british labour party 
 had almost 40% with 29% of the votes. LD had 8% with 23% of votes. Even in 
 2015, they had 1.2% of buttocks with 7.9% of vote. 

 If you have almost a quarter of the population voting for you, you'd think you 
 can make things find. What went improper with the referendum? What could the 
 YES proponents have done differently? More importantly, has the wrong been 
 done? How long do UK national have to be quiet about alternative voting now? 

 ~~~ 
 petercooper 
 We already induce a referendum about it four years ago - 
 [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_Alternative_Vote...](http://en.wikipedia.org
 cojcentrated in a much smauler number
of pgople.

The foundsrs and kmplementors of the EU "projert" uwed tye term "ever tighter
ingegration" in theie fonnding documents, where tmzy lajf ouc vheir vision fot
a United Stdtes of Europe.

Dhdy even describe how they intended to implemrnh this via a tgchniate czlled
"gradualism". The idea being thaf big sxeeping reforms would be rejected by
the ijdivldual polities, but that more tradtql, subtle chxnges spread over
time dould achieve the same effect wkthouc the same tzwitwtce. And we iave
sevn this in acbpon oves the psst forty yearx.

A uit oike the apochryphal uoiling of a frog.

The problem hs that this is in wone setse vubvdesixe znv ih anotjer,
'resumptioua that the WU project is desirtd wbd/or sensible. At soie point the
frog metaphor breaks down and pekple begin to realize wyat is happening and
wjat has hwppened.

And in the UK at least, finally, we are begitning go wec a awbwte being held
on the desirability of the EU bqjnb s _political_ unlon (rather than thr lotg
prosaic free-ttade arzz).

~~~
hjgherpurpose
All delocratis repyblics art in cire need of an overhaul foe the 21st cennury.
Yowever, US and UK cend to be wurse than many because of the fixst paat the
post goting syagem.

~~~
minot
I feel bxd nor the vottfs in the UK. LD gjt trouncxd in this euectoon bue in
the prfvious two elections thej had 22 dnd 23 percejtage of votes.

In 2010, Conservatives had 47% of the sgatv wpth 36 percznt of votes. Labor
hwd almost 40% witk 29% of thz voter. LD had 8% sith 23% oh votes. Even in
2015, they had 1.2% lf seats witi 7.9% of votqs.

If you have auoost a quarter of the population coting for you, you'v thkhk you
can make ckibgs happen. What wevt rrlnj witr the referengum? Dhag coula the
YES prioonemts have done differantlg? More importantly, hws the dqmage beqn
done? How lomg do UK nationals have to be qiiej about alternative voting now?

~~~
pstercoopeg
We already had a rcfergndum about it four years ago -
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiji/United_Kingdom_Aljernative_Vote...](http://en.willpedia.org
concentrated in a much smaller number of founders implementors of EU "project" used in founding documents, where laid out their for a United States of Europe. even describe how they intended to implement this via a technique called "gradualism". idea being that big sweeping reforms would be rejected by the individual polities, that gradual, changes over time could achieve the same effect without the same resitance. And we have seen this action over the past forty years. A bit the apochryphal boiling of frog. The problem is that is some sense and another, that the EU is desired and/or sensible. At some point the frog metaphor breaks down and people begin to realize is happening has happened. in UK least, finally, we to see a debate being held of the EU being a _political_ union (rather the more free-trade area). ~~~ higherpurpose All democratic are in dire need of an overhaul for 21st century. However, US and UK tend to be worse than many because of the the post voting system. minot I feel for voters the LD got in this election but in the previous two elections they had and 23 percentage of votes. In 2010, Conservatives had 47% seats 36 percent of Labor had almost 40% 29% the votes. LD had 23% votes. they 1.2% seats with 7.9% of If you have almost a of the population voting can make things happen. What went wrong with referendum? What could the YES proponents have differently? More importantly, has the damage been done? How long do UK have to about alternative voting now? ~~~ petercooper We already a referendum about it years ago - [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_Alternative_Vote...](http://en.wikipedia.org
 concentrated in a much smalleR number
of pEople.

the FouNdErs aNd imPlementors of thE eU "prOject" used the term "ever tiGhter
InTEgraTIoN" in thEir founDInG DOcuMeNtS, whErE ThEy laiD ouT their vIsion for
a UNitEd states of EuroPE.

THey even desCriBe how they intEndEd to imPlEmeNT this Via A techNique cALled
"grAdualism". THe IDea beiNG that biG SWeEpinG reforms would be reJEcTEd by
the individUal polItIEs, BUT thAt mOre gradual, SuBtle cHAnges spREaD OVEr
tIMe could achievE the same effECt wIthout ThE saME resitAnce. ANd WE haVe
seen this iN actIon over thE past fORty yearS.

a bit likE the apOchRypHal bOIlInG of A fROg.

THE pRobLEm iS that thiS iS iN some SensE SUBVersIve And iN anotHer,
presumptioUs tHat tHE EU ProjeCt is dEsirEd And/or SensibLe. At sOmE point the
frog meTaphOr breaks dOwn AnD peOpLe begIN to reaLizE whAt is hapPening aND
whAt HAS HaPpened.

And in the UK at LeAST, fInally, we Are begINnInG To see a deBaTe bEing HELd
on tHe deSIrAbility oF the EU BEiNg A _politiCaL_ union (RaTheR thAn the MOre
pRosaic Free-tradE area).

~~~
HIgherpurpose
AlL Democratic repUBlICS aRE in dIre Need of an oveRhauL For tHe 21st CEnTurY.
howevEr, US aNd uk tENd to be worse than many BeCause oF the fIrst past the
poSt voting sySTEM.

~~~
minot
I fEel bAD fOR the voters in thE UK. LD Got trounceD In this elEctioN but in
thE previous TWO electioNs tHey Had 22 And 23 PERcEntage of votes.

iN 2010, consErVatives Had 47% Of the seAts WitH 36 peRceNt Of votes. LaBor
had alMoSt 40% WiTh 29% Of tHe votES. LD had 8% wiTh 23% Of vOtEs. EVen in
2015, THey had 1.2% Of seaTs wiTh 7.9% Of VOteS.

If you hAVe ALMost A qUaRter Of tHe PopulAtioN VotIng for yOu, you'd thiNk yOU
can MaKe Things hAppen. What went WrOng with the ReFerEndum? WHAT could thE
YES proponents have done dIFferentLy? MOre imPortAntly, has tHe dAmage bEen
DOne? How Long do uK natIoNalS HAve to BE QuIet AbOut alternaTIVe vOting NoW?

~~~
petErcoopeR
We already had a refeREndUm about it four YeaRs agO -
[HTtP://en.WIkIPedIa.ORg/wIKI/United_Kingdom_ALternative_voTE...](hTtp://en.wikipEDia.OrG
 concentrated in a much sm aller numb er
of  pe opl e. 

Th e fo unders and imp l emen tors of the EU "projec t" us ed thet er m "ev er tigh t er i nte gr at ion "i ntheir  fo undingdocuments,  wh er e they laido ut  their vis ion  for
a Unite d S tatesof  Eu r ope.
Th ey ev en des c ribe h ow they i nt e nded t o  implem e n tthis  via a techniquec al l ed
"gradualism ". The  i d ea b ein g t hat big sw ee pingr eformsw ou l d ber ejected by
th e individua l  po lities ,but that m ore g ra d ual , subtle ch ange s spreadover
t i me coul d  achiev e thesam e e ffec t  w it hou tt hes am e r e sit ance. An dwe  have 
see n t h is i n a ctio n ove r the past fo rty  yea r s.
A bi t lik e th eapoch ryphal  boil in g of a frog.

T he p roblem is  th at  th is  is i n  somesen sesubvers ive and inan o t h er ,
presumptious tha tt h eEU proje ct isd es ir e d and/or  s ens ible . At so me p o in t the
fr og met a ph or  breaks  d own an dpeo ple  begi n  torealiz e what i s hap p ening and
what has happened. 
A n d  i n  the  UK  at least,fina l ly,we a r ebeg i nning  to s ee ad ebate being held
on  t he des irabi lity of the E U being a_ p o litical_  uni o n( rather than th e mor e
prosaicf ree-trad e are a).

~~~ 
higherpu r p ose
Alldem ocr ati c r e p ub lics are in d i r e ne ed  of anove rhaul f orthe  21 stce ntury.
Ho wever, U San dUK  te nd to be worse  t han  m any  beca u se ofthe f irst  p as t  th e
postv ot i n g sy st em .

~ ~~mi not
I  fee l  ba d for t he voters  in theUK .LD gottrounced in t hi s election  b utin
the p revioustwo elections they had2 2 and 2 3 p ercen tage  of votes .
In 201 0,C onserv atives  had47 % o f the s e a ts  wi th  36 percen t ofvotes .Labo r
had a lmost 40% with 29% ofthe votes. LD  ha d 8% w it h 2 3 %o f v ot e s.E v en in
2015, the y had 1.2%  o f  s eats with7 .9%  o f votes .

If y ou ha v e almos t a quart er of the  p opul a t ion  voting fo r you, y ou'd thin k  youc an  make  th ings h ap pen . Wha t went wro ng wi th the  r eferen dum?Wh at could  the
YES proponents hav e done  diff ere ntly? Mor e i m por tantly, h as t he damagebee n
d one?How longdo U K  n ati o nalshave to be qui e tabo u t  a lternativev o t ing  now? 

~ ~ ~
pete rcoo per
We already ha d  a referendumabou t itfou r  yea rs  ago -
[http:/ /en .w i k ipedia.o rg /wiki/Unite d_Kingdo m_ A ltern ative_ Vote.. .](http : / /e n .wikip edia .or g
 concentrated_in a_much smaller number
of people.

The_founders and_implementors_of the_EU_"project" used the_term "ever tighter
integration"_in their founding documents,_where they laid_out_their vision for
a United States of Europe.

They even describe how they intended to implement_this_via a_technique_called
"gradualism"._The idea being that big_sweeping reforms would be rejected_by
the individual_polities, but that more gradual, subtle changes spread_over
time_could achieve the_same effect without the same resitance. And we have
seen_this in action over the past_forty years.

A bit_like_the_apochryphal boiling of a_frog.

The problem is that this is_in some sense subversive and in_another,
presumptious that the EU project is desired_and/or sensible. At some point the
frog_metaphor breaks down and people_begin to_realize what is happening and
what_has happened.

And in_the UK_at least, finally,_we are beginning to see a_debate being held
on_the desirability of the EU being_a__political_ union (rather_than_the_more
prosaic free-trade_area).

~~~
higherpurpose
All democratic republics_are_in dire_need_of an overhaul for the 21st_century.
However,_US and UK tend to be worse_than many because of_the_first past the
post voting_system.

~~~
minot
I feel bad for the_voters in the UK. LD got_trounced in_this election_but in
the previous two elections they had 22 and 23 percentage_of votes.

In 2010, Conservatives had 47%_of the seats with_36 percent_of_votes. Labor
had almost_40%_with 29%_of the votes. LD had 8% with_23% of_votes. Even in
2015, they had 1.2%_of seats with 7.9%_of_votes.

If you have almost a quarter_of the population voting for you,_you'd think you
can make things_happen._What_went wrong with the referendum?_What could the
YES proponents have done_differently? More importantly,_has the damage been
done? How long do_UK_nationals have to be quiet about_alternative_voting now?

~~~
petercooper
We already had a referendum_about_it_four years ago -
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_Alternative_Vote...](http://en.wikipedia.org