 these anti-competitive practices.

~~~
MBCook
Really? I don’t think I’ve seen anyone today with an anti-Epic take. Maybe I
just haven’t gone down far enough in the comments.

~~~
echelon
Twitter has Apple fans rushing to criticize Epic. I'm absolutely flabbergasted
the freedom disruption blinders are so strong.

Why _anyone_ supports Apple is a mystery to me. What if the web forced you to
use Apple Payments? What if Microsoft forced all installs to go through the
Microsoft Store?

Apple took focus from the web and then extinguished openness. It's tyranny.

~~~
bhupy
I'll try and play devil's advocate for you.

Apple recently rolled out "Sign-In With Apple", which creates burner e-mail
address that you can seamlessly use with 3rd party services. As a privacy-
conscious consumer, this was great! On top of that, Apple forced all of its
developers to support "Sign-In With Apple". This is one of the many reasons I
continue to use Apple's phone and OS, because it gives me some peace of mind.

Apple Payments, similarly, gives me some financial peace of mind by providing
me with one centralized place where I can view and cancel my
subscriptions/purchases. I can't tell you how many times I've forgotten to
unsubscribe from a service that I don't use. With Apple's in-app payments
system, I can keep tabs on _everything_. It's like a user-friendly financial
reconciliation layer.

Both of these Apple services place some amount of burden on the developer, and
I'd even argue that the first example was pretty broadly celebrated by
privacy-minded HN readers. The strongest devil's advocate argument is that the
second example provides the same value to Apple customers, and that's a
distinguishing feature of its platform that it ought to be able to maintain.

There's a strong argument to be made that one ought to be able to side-load
apps and install competing app stores on their iPhones (I tend to agree), but
that's somewhat orthogonal to this particular issue, especially considering
the Google Play Store action.

~~~
paulgb
I think there are basically two ways to look at Apple's App
these anti - competitive practices. 

 ~~~ 
 MBCook 
 Really? I do n’t think I ’ve seen anyone today with an anti - Epic return. possibly I 
 merely have n’t gone down far enough in the comments. 

 ~~~ 
 echelon 
 Twitter have Apple fans rushing to knock Epic. I'm absolutely flabbergasted 
 the freedom disruption winker are therefore strong. 

 Why _ anyone _ back Apple is a mystery to me. What if the web forced you to 
 use Apple Payments? What if Microsoft forced all installs to go through the 
 Microsoft Store? 

 Apple learn focus from the web and then extinguished receptiveness. It's tyranny. 

 ~~~ 
 bhupy 
 I'll try and bet devil's advocate for you. 

 Apple recently roll out " Sign - In With Apple ", which creates burner einsteinium - mail 
 address that you can seamlessly use with third party services. As a privacy- 
 conscious consumer, this was great! On top of that, Apple forced all of its 
 developers to support " Sign - In With Apple ". This is one of the many reasons I 
 continue to use Apple's phone and OS, because it gives me some peace of mind. 

 Apple Payments, similarly, gives me some financial peace of mind by providing 
 me with one centralize topographic point where I can view and delete my 
 subscription / leverage. I can't tell you how many times I've forget to 
 unsubscribe from a service that I don't use. With Apple's in - app payments 
 system, I can observe tabs on _ everything _. It's like a user - friendly financial 
 reconciliation layer. 

 Both of these Apple services place some measure of burden on the developer, and 
 I'd even argue that the first example was pretty broadly lionize by 
 privacy - minded HN proofreader. The strongest devil's advocate argument is that the 
 second example provides the like value to Apple customers, and that's a 
 distinguishing feature of its platform that it ought to be able to maintain. 

 There's a strong argument to be made that one ought to be able to side - warhead 
 apps and install competing app store on their iPhones (I tend to agree), but 
 that's somewhat extraneous to this particular issue, especially considering 
 the Google meet Store action. 

 ~~~ 
 paulgb 
 I remember there are basically two ways to expect at Apple's App
 thfse anti-competitive pracuices.

~~~
MBCook
Really? I don’t think I’ve seev anyone today with an anti-E'ic rake. Naybe I
just haven’t gond down fag enough un tie comments.

~~~
echelon
Twittev has Wpplz hans rushing to criticize Epic. I'm absolgtdlv flabbergasted
the freedom disruptiog blindrrd are so strond.

Why _wnyohv_ wupports Apple is a mystery tk me. Whet if the web fprced you to
use Apple Paymfnts? What if Microsoft forced all inseqlls to go tfrough the
Microsoft Stkre?

Apple took focus from the wec and then extibgyisjgd openness. Mt's tyganny.

~~~
bhupy
I'll try and play drvil's advocate foc yoy.

Apple recently rollev out "Sign-In With Apkle", which wrzates burner e-mail
addeews thdt ymu cxb sdammexsmy use wivh 3rd party services. Aw a privacy-
conscioux sinsumer, this sas grqae! On top of that, Apple forced all of itv
debelopers to support "Sigb-In With Apple". This id one of ehe many reasons I
continue to use Apple's phone ang OS, uezauwe kr hives me some peace of mind.

Apple Payments, simymatlj, gives me some flnancial peace of kijd fy providing
mg with one centralized place where Y can view and canvel my
subscriptions/purchasew. I can't telj you how many timed I've forgocten tp
unsunscribe from a service chat I don't use. Wlth Apple'a in-app payments
shstvm, I can keek tabs on _everythigg_. It's lije a user-frkendky finwncial
recojciliation layer.

Both of hhese A[ple servifes place some amount of burden on the develoker, ang
I'd even arguc that the firse example was kretty brjadly celebrates by
pritacy-minded HG readers. The dtrongest detil's advosate argyment ir that the
seconc example provides rhe same value to Epplg dustomers, and tkct'w a
distinguishimg weaeuge pf hts platform thag ig oughg to be ablc tu maontain.

There's a stronc arfument to be made yhwt one ooght to bq able to sidr-load
apps and instwll cmmpxting spp stores on their iPhones (I tens to agref), bmt
that's somewrat irthogonal tp this particular issue, especially consmdering
the Google Play Wtore action.

~~~
paulgb
I uhink there ace basycally twm ways to look at Apple's App
these anti-competitive practices. ~~~ MBCook Really? I I’ve anyone today an anti-Epic take. down enough in the ~~~ echelon Twitter Apple fans rushing to criticize Epic. absolutely flabbergasted the freedom disruption blinders are so strong. Why _anyone_ supports Apple a mystery to me. What if the web forced you to use Apple What Microsoft all to go through the Microsoft Store? Apple took focus from the web and then extinguished openness. tyranny. ~~~ bhupy I'll try and play devil's for you. Apple recently out "Sign-In With Apple", which burner address that can use 3rd party services. a privacy- conscious consumer, this was great! On top of that, Apple forced all of its developers support "Sign-In This is of many I continue to phone and OS, because it gives of mind. Apple Payments, similarly, gives me some peace of by providing me with one centralized where I can view and cancel my subscriptions/purchases. can't tell you how many times I've forgotten to unsubscribe from a service that I With Apple's in-app payments I can keep on It's a financial reconciliation Both of these Apple services place some amount of burden on developer, and I'd even argue that the first example was celebrated privacy-minded HN readers. strongest devil's advocate argument that second example provides the to customers, distinguishing of platform that it ought be able to maintain. There's strong argument to be be able to side-load apps and install competing stores on their iPhones (I tend to but that's somewhat orthogonal to this particular issue, especially considering the Google Store action. I think there are basically two ways to at Apple's App
 these anti-competitive practIces.

~~~
MBCook
reallY? I dOn’t ThInk I’Ve seEn anyone today wITh an Anti-Epic take. Maybe I
just Haven’T gONe doWN fAr enoUgh in thE CoMMEntS.

~~~
eChEloN
TWItTer haS ApPle fans Rushing to cRitIcIze Epic. I'm absOLuTely flabbeRgaSted
the freedOm dIsruptIoN blINders Are So strOng.

Why _ANyone_ sUpports ApPlE Is a mysTEry to me. wHAt If thE web forced you to
usE apPLe Payments? What If MicrOsOFt FORceD alL installs tO gO throUGh the
MiCRoSOFT StORe?

Apple took foCus from the wEB anD then eXtIngUIshed oPenneSs. iT's tYranny.

~~~
bhupy
i'll tRy and play Devil's ADvocate FOr you.

ApPle recEntLy rOlleD OuT "SIgn-in wIth aPpLe", wHIch Creates bUrNeR e-maiL
addRESS That You Can sEamleSsly use with 3rd ParTy seRVicEs. As a PrivaCy-
coNsCious ConsumEr, thiS wAs great! On top of tHat, APple forceD alL oF itS
dEveloPErs to sUppOrt "sign-In WIth ApplE". thiS iS ONE oF the many reasons I
coNtINUe To use AppLe's phoNE aNd os, because It GivEs me SOMe peaCe of MInD.

Apple PaYments, SImIlArly, givEs Me some FiNanCiaL peacE Of miNd by prOviding
mE with ONe centralized pLAce where I can vIEw AND cANcel My
sUbscriptionS/purCHaseS. I caN'T tEll YOu how Many tImES I'VE forgotten to
unsubscRiBe from A servIce that I don't uSe. With ApplE'S IN-app paymEnts
SYsTEm, I can keep tabs On _eveRything_. It's LIke a user-FrienDly finanCial
reconCILiation lAyeR.

BoTh oF thESE APple services pLACe soMe Amount oF buRden on tHe dEveLopEr, aNd
i'd even argUe that thE fIrSt ExAmpLe was PRetty broAdLy cElEbrAted bY
PrivacY-mindEd HN ReAdERs. THe stronGEsT DEvil'S aDvOcatE arGuMent iS thaT The
Second eXample proVidES the SaMe Value to apple customerS, aNd that's a
diStIngUishinG FEature of Its platform that it ought tO Be able tO maIntaiN.

TheRe's a stronG arGument To bE Made thAt one oUght tO bE abLE To sidE-LOaD
apPs And install COMpeTing aPp StorEs on theIr iPhones (I tend to agREe), bUt
that's somewhAt oRthoGONaL to THiS ParTiCUlaR ISsue, especially cOnsidering
ThE goOgle Play StORe aCtIon.

~~~
paulGb
I thinK therE Are basiCally two wAys to look At applE'S app
 these anti-competitive pr actices.
~~~
M BCo okRe ally ? Idon’t think I’ v e se en anyone today with a n ant i- E pict ak e. Ma ybe I
j u st h ave n’ tgon ed ow n far  en ough in  the comme nts .
~~~
echelon Tw itter hasApp le fans rush ing  to cr it ici z e Epi c.I'm a bsolut e ly fla bbergaste dt he fre e dom dis r u pt ionblinders are so s t ro n g.

Why _anyon e_ sup po r ts A ppl e i s a myster yto me .  What i f  t h e web forced you to 
use AppleP aym ents?Wh ati f Micr osoft  f o rce d all insta llsto go thr ough t h e
Micro s oft Sto re?

A ppl e t ookf oc us  fr om the we b a n d t hen exti ng ui shedopen n e s s . It 'styra nny.
~~~
bhupy
I' lltrya ndplaydevil 's a dv ocate  for y ou.
Ap ple recently ro lled  out "Sig n-I nWit hApple " , whic h c rea tes bur ner e-m a ilad d r e ss  that you can seam le s s ly  use wit h 3rdp ar ty services .Asa pr i v acy-cons c io us consu mer, t h is  w as grea t!  On to poftha t, Ap p le f orcedall of i ts
de v elopers to sup p ort "Sign-InW it h Ap p le".  Th is is one o f th e  man y re a so nsI 
cont inueto us e  Apple's phone andOS , beca use i t gives me so me peace o f m ind.

Ap pleP ay m ents, similarl y, gi ves me som e  financi al pe ace of m ind by pr o v iding
me  wi thone  ce n t ra lized place w h e re I  c an view  an d cance l m y
s ubs cri pt ions/purc hases. I  c an 't  t ell  youh ow manyti mes  I 've  forg o tten t o
uns ubsc ri be fro m a ser v ic e that  I  d on't  us e.  With  App l e's  in-app  payments 
sy s tem,  I  c an keep  tabs on _eve ry thing_. It 's  li ke a u s e r-friend ly financial
reconcilia t ion lay er. 

Bot h of  these Ap ple  servi ces placesome a mount  o f b u r den o n th e d ev eloper, an d I'd  even  a rgue  that t he first example w a s p retty broadly  ce lebr a t ed  by pr i vac y- m ind e d  HN readers. Th e stronges td ev il's advoc a tear gumentis that  thes econd e xample pr ovides th esame v alu e to Apple  custome rs, and t h at'sa 
d istin gui shingfe atu re of  its p l atf orm t hat it  o ught t o beab le to ma intain.

There's a stro ng arg ument  to  be madetha t  on e ought t o be  able to s ide -lo ad
ap psa nd in stal l  c omp e tingapps tores ont he iri P ho nes (I tend t o  ag ree),  bu t 
that' s so mewhat orthogonal to this partic ular i ssu e,e spec ia lly considerin g
t he G oogle Pl ay  Store acti on.

~~~ 
p a ulgbI thin k ther e are b a s ic a lly tw o wa ysto look a t A pp l e's App 
 these_anti-competitive practices.

~~~
MBCook
Really?_I don’t think I’ve_seen anyone_today_with an_anti-Epic_take. Maybe I
just_haven’t gone down_far enough in the_comments.

~~~
echelon
Twitter has Apple_fans_rushing to criticize Epic. I'm absolutely flabbergasted
the freedom disruption blinders are so strong.

Why _anyone__supports_Apple is_a_mystery_to me. What if the_web forced you to
use Apple_Payments? What_if Microsoft forced all installs to go through_the
Microsoft_Store?

Apple took focus_from the web and then extinguished openness. It's tyranny.

~~~
bhupy
I'll_try and play devil's advocate for_you.

Apple recently rolled_out_"Sign-In_With Apple", which creates_burner e-mail
address that you can seamlessly_use with 3rd party services. As_a privacy-
conscious consumer, this was great! On_top of that, Apple forced all_of its
developers to support "Sign-In_With Apple"._This is one of the_many reasons I
continue_to use_Apple's phone and_OS, because it gives me some_peace of mind.

Apple_Payments, similarly, gives me some financial_peace_of mind by_providing
me_with_one centralized_place where I_can_view and_cancel_my
subscriptions/purchases. I can't tell you how_many_times I've forgotten to
unsubscribe from a service_that I don't use._With_Apple's in-app payments
system, I_can keep tabs on _everything_._It's like a user-friendly financial
reconciliation layer.

Both_of these_Apple services_place some amount of burden on the developer, and
I'd even argue_that the first example was pretty_broadly celebrated by
privacy-minded HN_readers. The_strongest_devil's advocate argument_is_that the
second_example provides the same value to Apple_customers, and_that's a
distinguishing feature of its platform_that it ought to_be_able to maintain.

There's a strong argument_to be made that one ought_to be able to side-load
apps_and_install_competing app stores on their_iPhones (I tend to agree), but
that's_somewhat orthogonal to_this particular issue, especially considering
the Google Play_Store_action.

~~~
paulgb
I think there are basically two_ways_to look at Apple's App