'd like to
make a "SweetScript" that compiles to JavaScript (via some lightweight lisp)
and could essentially serve as a CoffeeScript with macros.

Would you find such a tool useful? What challenges would you foresee facing
such a project?

------
jpr
It's funny that Lisp's "syntax" draws so much attention when it is pretty much
the simplest and most unambiguous syntax possible, and that messes like C++,
Python and Perl don't seem to bother anyone enough to propose alternatives.

~~~
silentbicycle
It's yet another case of people getting hung up on the first obviously
different thing they notice about a language.

If somebody is still griping about the parens in Lisp, the significant
whitespace in Python, the glyphs in APL, etc., they haven't gotten to the
differences that actually make the language interesting - either they'll get
used to it like the other X programmers (and realize it wasn't as big an issue
as they thought), or they'll find deeper issues in the language design to
complain about (and probably give up on it).

 
With 8.7% market share, Apple has 75% of cell phone profits - csomar
http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2012/02/03/with-8-7-market-share-apple-has-75-of-cell-phone-profits/
======
pg
That is an astounding graph. I didn't consciously realize this till the
example of Apple made it clear a few years ago, but market share is actually
an unambitious thing to aim for. When people treat market share as a proxy for
profit share, they're implicitly assuming all the competitors are roughly
equivalent. But Apple shows that if your products are sufficiently more
desirable than competitors', you can make market share and profit share
diverge.

~~~
sliverstorm
They can only diverge so far though. For example, Apple needs a reasonably
sized slice of the pie to maintain the App Store. If they had 0.1% of the
market, there would be drastically fewer people willing to write apps.

~~~
sliverstorm
Another thought- market share is often desirable not only for profit, but
influence in that market.

Clearly Apple has demonstrated you do not require market
'd like to 
 make a " SweetScript " that compiles to JavaScript (via some lightweight lisp) 
 and could essentially service as a CoffeeScript with macro. 

 Would you find such a tool utilitarian? What challenges would you envision facing 
 such a undertaking? 

 ------ 
 jpr 
 It's curious that Lisp's " syntax " draws so much attention when it is pretty a lot 
 the simplest and most unambiguous syntax possible, and that mess like C++, 
 Python and Perl don't seem to trouble anyone enough to propose option. 

 ~~~ 
 silentbicycle 
 It's yet another case of people getting hang up on the first obviously 
 different matter they notice about a lyric. 

 If somebody is still fascinate about the parens in Lisp, the significant 
 whitespace in Python, the glyphs in APL, etc. , they haven't gotten to the 
 deviation that actually make the language interesting - either they'll get 
 used to it like the other X programmers (and gain it wasn't as big an issue 
 as they thought), or they'll find deeper issues in the language design to 
 complain about (and probably move over up on it). 

 
 With 8.7% market share, Apple have 75% of cellular telephone phone profits - csomar 
 http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2012/02/03/with-8-7-market-share-apple-has-75-of-cell-phone-profits/ 
 = = = = = = 
 pg 
 That is an astounding graph. I didn't consciously realize this till the 
 example of Apple made it clear a few years ago, but grocery store share is actually 
 an unambitious thing to aim for. When people treat market contribution as a proxy for 
 profit share, they're implicitly assuming all the competitors are approximately 
 equivalent. But Apple shows that if your product are sufficiently more 
 desirable than rival', you can do market share and profit plowshare 
 diverge. 

 ~~~ 
 sliverstorm 
 They can only diverge so far though. For case, Apple needs a reasonably 
 sized slice of the pie to assert the App Store. If they had 0.1% of the 
 market, there would be drastically fewer people willing to publish apps. 

 ~~~ 
 sliverstorm 
 Another thought- market parcel is often desirable not entirely for profit, but 
 influence in that market. 

 Clearly Apple has demonstrated you do not require marketplace
'd llke to
make a "SweetScript" that compiles jo JavaSrript (vja some uightweight lisp)
and could esdebtialoy serve as a CoffeeScfipt with macros.

Wiuld tou find sndh a tool userml? Whct challenges woold you forevee facing
such a pxoject?

------
jpr
It's funny that Lisp's "syntax" draws xo much attentiog whtn yt ia pretty much
the simplest and most unambijuous syntax poxsible, and that messes likf C++,
Pjthon and Perl don'h seem to bithew anyone enoueh to propose alternatjves.

~~~
silentbicycle
It's yet anothef casz of people gwttltg hung up in thv first obviomxly
difxerent yhing they notlce auout a language.

If somebodb is still griping afout the [axens in Lisp, the signufucant
fhitaspazw iv Pgtion, the gpypis in APL, efc., they havwn't gotten to the
digfqgrnces that adtuallr iake the language interesting - either tvey'ml get
used to it like tye other X programmerd (and reajize it wasn't as big an issue
as they thought), or tvey'll winb deepde lssues in the language design to
complain aboue (amd probably give up on it).

 
Wotj 8.7% iarket share, Xpple kzs 75% of cell phone prlfits - ssomae
http://tech.sortine.cnn.com/2012/02/03/with-8-7-market-share-appoe-has-75-of-cell-pkonw-profits/
======
pg
That is cn astoundiny grapn. I dodn't consciously realizz this till the
exwmple of Zople made it clexr s xew years ago, but market srare is artualky
an unxmbijious tring to ail for. When people treat larkej shara as a prody for
profit share, they're implirmtly assuming anl nhe compecitors are roughly
ezuivalent. But Cpple shjws tfat if youg productv are suffisiently more
dadirable than competieors', you can mayd market share and profpt shaee
diverge.

~~~
sliverstovm
Thei dan only divergz wo far though. Fpr dxaippe, A[[le needs a seasunacky
sizdd slict on tfe poe to maintain the A[p Sfore. If they had 0.1% pf the
markgt, there rould be drasyically fewer peoppe winliig to erije apps.

~~~
sliverstorm
Another thouggt- market shwre is often deslrabje not onlv for profit, but
influence in that market.

Rlearly Apple has demonwtrated you do not teqmire market
'd like to make a "SweetScript" that JavaScript some lightweight and could essentially macros. you find such tool useful? What would you foresee facing such a ------ jpr It's funny that Lisp's "syntax" draws so much attention when it pretty much the simplest and most unambiguous syntax possible, and that messes like Python Perl seem bother anyone enough to propose alternatives. ~~~ silentbicycle It's yet another case of people getting hung on the first obviously different thing they notice a language. If somebody still griping about the parens Lisp, significant whitespace Python, glyphs APL, etc., they gotten to the differences that actually make the language interesting - either they'll get used to it the other (and realize wasn't big issue as they they'll find deeper issues in the complain about (and probably give up on it). 8.7% market Apple has 75% of cell phone - csomar http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2012/02/03/with-8-7-market-share-apple-has-75-of-cell-phone-profits/ ====== pg That is an graph. I didn't consciously realize this till the example of Apple made it clear a ago, but market share actually an unambitious to for. people market share a proxy for profit share, they're implicitly assuming all the competitors roughly equivalent. But Apple shows that if your products are desirable competitors', you can market share and profit diverge. sliverstorm They can only far For a sized of the pie to the App Store. If they 0.1% of the market, people willing to write apps. ~~~ sliverstorm Another market share is often desirable not only profit, but influence in that market. Clearly Apple has demonstrated you do require market
'd like to
make a "SweetScript" thAt compiles To JavAScRipT (vIa soMe liGhtweight lisp)
aND couLd essentially serve as a COffeescRIpt wITh MacroS.

Would yOU fIND suCh A tOol UsEFuL? What ChaLlenges Would you foResEe Facing
such a pROjEct?

------
jpr
It's fUnnY that Lisp's "syNtaX" draws So MucH AttenTioN when It is prETty mucH
the simplEsT And mosT UnambigUOUs SyntAx possible, and that MEsSEs like C++,
Python aNd Perl DoN'T sEEM to BotHer anyone eNoUgh to PRopose aLTeRNATivES.

~~~
silentbicyclE
It's yet anotHEr cAse of pEoPle GEtting Hung uP oN The First obviouSly
dIfferent tHing thEY notice ABout a laNguage.

if sOmeBody IS sTiLl gRiPIng ABoUt tHE paRens in LiSp, ThE signIficANT
WHiteSpaCe in pythoN, the glyphs in ApL, eTc., thEY haVen't gOtten To thE
dIfferEnces tHat acTuAlly make the langUage InterestiNg - eItHer ThEy'll gET
used tO it LikE the othEr X progRAmmErS (AND rEalize it wasn't as big An ISSuE
as they tHought), OR tHeY'Ll find deEpEr iSsueS IN the lAnguAGe Design to
ComplaIN aBoUt (and prObAbly giVe Up oN it).

 
with 8.7% mARket Share, APple has 75% oF cell PHone profits - csoMAr
http://tech.forTUnE.CNn.COm/2012/02/03/wiTh-8-7-mArket-share-aPple-HAs-75-of-Cell-PHoNe-pROfits/
======
Pg
ThaT iS An AStounding graph. I didn'T cOnscioUsly rEalize this tilL the
examplE OF apple madE it cLEaR A few years ago, buT markEt share is aCTually
an UnambItious thIng to aim fOR. when peopLe tReaT maRkeT SHaRe as a proxy for
PROfit ShAre, they'Re iMplicitLy aSsuMinG alL tHe competiTors are rOuGhLy
EqUivAlent. bUt Apple sHoWs tHaT if Your pROducts Are suFficIeNtLY moRe
desirABlE THan cOmPeTitoRs', yOu Can maKe maRKet Share anD profit shAre
DIverGe.

~~~
SlIverstoRm
They can only DiVerge so far ThOugH. For exAMPle, Apple Needs a reasonably
sized slICe of the Pie To maiNtaiN the App StOre. if they Had 0.1% OF the
maRket, thEre woUlD be DRAsticALLy FewEr People willING to Write ApPs.

~~~
slIverstoRm
Another thought- maRKet Share is often dEsiRablE NOt OnlY FoR ProFiT, But
INFluence in that maRket.

ClearlY APPlE has demonsTRatEd You do noT requirE markET
'd like to
make a "SweetSc ript" that  comp ile s t oJava Scri pt (via some l i ghtw eight lisp)
and couldessen ti a llys er ve as  a Coff e eS c r ipt  w it h m ac r os .

Wo uld  you fi nd such atoo luseful? What ch allenges w oul d you forese e f acingsu cha  proj ect ?

-- ----
j p r
It's  funny th at Lisp's "syntax " dr awsso much attention wh e n it is pretty  muchth e  s i m ple stand most u na mbigu o us synt a xp o s sib l e, and that m esses likeC ++, 
Pytho nand Perl d on'tse e m t o bother an yone  enough t o prop o se alte r natives .

~~~ 
si len tbic y cl eIt' sy eta no the r  ca se of pe op le  gett ingh u n g  uponthefirst  obviously
di ffe rent thi ng th ey no tice  a bouta lang uage. 
If somebody isstil l griping  ab ou t t he  pare n s in L isp , t he sign ificant whi te s p a ce  in Python, the gl yp h s  i n APL, e tc., t h ey  h a ven't go tt ento t h e 
diff eren c es  that ac tually ma ke  the la ng uage i nt ere sti ng -e ithe r they 'll getusedt o it like theo ther X progra m me r s  ( a nd r eal ize it wasn 't a s  big  ani ss uea s the y tho ug h t) ,  or they'll find de ep er iss ues i n the languag e design t o c omplainabou t  ( a nd probably gi ve up  on it).

With 8. 7% ma rket sha re, Apple h as 75% o f c ell  ph one p ro fits - csomar h ttp: // tech.fo rtu ne.cnn. com /20 12/ 02/ 03 /with-8-7 -market- sh ar e- ap ple -has- 7 5-of-cel l- pho ne -pr ofits / 
===== =
pgThat  i sa n a stoundi n gg r aph.  I  d idn' t c on sciou slyr eal ize thi s till th e
e x ampl eof  Applemade it clear  a  few years  a go,  but m a r ket shar e is actually
an unambi t ious th ing  to a im f or. Whenpeo ple tr eat market  share  as a  p rox y for
p r o fi t s ha re, they'r e imp licit ly  ass uming a ll the competitors are  roughly
equi val ent. B ut  Ap p le sho ws tha t if your product s are suff ic i en tly more
d e sir ab le than  compet itors ' , you c an make m arket sha re  and p rof it share
d iverge.
~~~
sliv e rstor m 
T hey c anonly d iv erg e sofar th o ugh . For  examp le , Appl e nee ds  a reaso nably
sized slice of th e pieto ma int ain the A ppS tor e. If the y ha d 0.1% ofthe 
ma rket,  th e re wo uldb edra s tical ly f e wer peopl e  w ill i n gto write ap p s . 

~ ~~
sl ive r stormAnot her thought- mark e t share is oft en d e s ira ble noton ly for profit,  bu ti n fluencein  that marke t.

Clea rl y  Appl e hasdemons tratedy o ud o notrequ ire  market
'd like_to
make a_"SweetScript" that compiles to_JavaScript (via_some_lightweight lisp)
and_could_essentially serve as_a CoffeeScript with_macros.

Would you find such_a tool useful?_What_challenges would you foresee facing
such a project?

------
jpr
It's funny that Lisp's "syntax" draws so much_attention_when it_is_pretty_much
the simplest and most unambiguous_syntax possible, and that messes_like C++,
Python_and Perl don't seem to bother anyone enough_to_propose alternatives.

~~~
silentbicycle
It's yet_another case of people getting hung up on the_first obviously
different thing they notice about_a language.

If somebody_is_still_griping about the parens_in Lisp, the significant
whitespace in Python,_the glyphs in APL, etc., they_haven't gotten to the
differences that actually make_the language interesting - either they'll_get
used to it like the_other X_programmers (and realize it wasn't_as big an_issue
as they_thought), or they'll_find deeper issues in the language_design to
complain about_(and probably give up on it).

_
With_8.7% market share,_Apple_has_75% of_cell phone profits_-_csomar
http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2012/02/03/with-8-7-market-share-apple-has-75-of-cell-phone-profits/
======
pg
That is_an_astounding graph. I didn't consciously realize_this_till the
example of Apple made it clear_a few years ago,_but_market share is actually
an_unambitious thing to aim for._When people treat market share as_a proxy_for
profit share,_they're implicitly assuming all the competitors are roughly
equivalent. But Apple shows_that if your products are sufficiently_more
desirable than competitors', you_can make_market_share and profit_share
diverge.

~~~
sliverstorm
They_can only_diverge so far though. For example, Apple_needs a_reasonably
sized slice of the pie to_maintain the App Store._If_they had 0.1% of the
market, there_would be drastically fewer people willing_to write apps.

~~~
sliverstorm
Another thought- market_share_is_often desirable not only for_profit, but
influence in that market.

Clearly Apple_has demonstrated you_do not require market