 can be sued. A lot of Catholic orders are set up something akin to an unincorporated association, so they don’t have a continuing legal entity that can be sued. It’s a bit like trying to hold the football club of a particular town responsible for perhaps having a sexual predator in their midst in the, say, early ‘70s, for example. There’s no point suing the current president and the vice-president of the football club, because they weren’t around at the time. What you need to do is find living members of the committee of management who were around at the time of the alleged offending. So that’s kind of a simple analogy to explain the difficulty in suing some of these Catholic entities.

Damien Carrick: Because there was a case, I think it was the Ellis case a few years ago, and that person was unsuccessful in suing the Catholic Church for the reasons...the kinds of reasons you’re talking about.

Vivian Waller: Yes, in that case it was held that the Church wasn’t a defendant that was capable of being sued; it didn’t have legal personality as such, and that case also is authority for the proposition that priests aren’t employees. So, there may be an offending priest, but that the church body may not necessarily be legally responsible for that. So these kinds of technical issues are very big impediments for people wishing to litigate their cases in court, if they’re seeking compensation. Now, quite frankly that does seem to be quite irrational. I can imagine a lot of your listeners thinking, ‘Well, let’s see, the Catholic Church employ people and they run committees and they have insurance, and they, you know, they employ teachers in their schools and they perform all of these tasks, how is it that they are not a legal entity capable of being sued like any other organisation that employs people, performs a service, hires a cleaner, hires a gardener?’ These are very tricky questions.

Damien Carrick: The government consultation paper also talks about the need to identify impediments within institutions and organisations that stop notification, investigation and prevention of child sexual abuse. You have some experience of the internal processes of the Catholic Church. What’s your view?

Vivian Waller: I do. There are two processes adopted by the Catholic Church: one is the Towards Healing protocol and the other is the process set up in Melbourne,
can be sued. A lot of Catholic orders are set up something akin to an unincorporated affiliation, so they do n’t take a continuing legal entity that can be sued. It ’s a piece like test to hold the football club of a finical township responsible for perhaps having a sexual predator in their midst in the, say, early ‘ 70s, for exercise. There ’s no point suing the current president of the united states and the frailty - president of the football club, because they were n’t approximately at the time. What you need to make is find living members of the committee of management who were about at the time of the alleged offending. So that ’s kind of a simple doctrine of analogy to explain the trouble in suing some of these Catholic entities. 

 Damien Carrick: Because there was a case, I intend it was the Ellis case a few years ago, and that person was unsuccessful in suing the Catholic Church for the reasons... the kind of reason you ’re talking about. 

 Vivian Waller: Yes, in that case it was held that the Church was n’t a defendant that was capable of being sued; it did n’t have legal personality as such, and that case also is authority for the suggestion that priests are n’t employees. indeed, there may be an offending priest, but that the church service soundbox may not necessarily be legally responsible for that. So these kinds of technical issues are very big impediments for citizenry wishing to litigate their cases in court, if they ’re seeking compensation. immediately, quite frankly that does seem to be quite irrational. I can imagine a lot of your hearer thinking, ‘ Well, permit ’s see, the Catholic Church employ people and they run committees and they accept insurance, and they, you know, they employ teacher in their schools and they perform all of these tasks, how is it that they are not a legal entity capable of being action like any other organisation that employs people, performs a military service, hires a cleansing agent, hires a gardener? ’ These are very tricky questions. 

 Damien Carrick: The government reference paper also talks about the indigence to identify obstruction within institutions and organisations that stop notification, investigation and prevention of child sexual abuse. You have some experience of the internal procedure of the Catholic Church. What ’s your view? 

 Vivian Waller: I do. There be two processes adopted by the Catholic Church: one is the Towards Healing protocol and the other is the process set up in Melbourne,
 caj be sued. A lot of Cathouic orders are set up vomethjng akin to an unincorporated associetiob, so ukey don’t have a contknuing lehal entiry tiat can be sued. Mf’s a bib liks trynnj to hold the fpotball clgb of a particglxr town responsible for perhaps havind a sexiap predator in jheir iidsf in the, say, early ‘70s, for example. Tgere’s nm point suing the current president and the vice-president of hhe footbalo cltv, because thdy weren’t around at thg time. What you need to do is fivd liring memberw if hve committex of mwnagement who were asound ay the time of bhe anleted offending. So that’v kind of a simple analogy do explain the diffucylty hn sging womd or vheae Catjolmc entities.

Samien Carruck: Because there wss q case, I thini it wws the Ellis case a few years ago, and thau peraon was unsuccessful in suing the Catholic Cjurch for the reasons...the kinds of reasons you’re talking abmut.

Vitixn Cqller: Ted, in that case it was held that the Church wafh’t a defendant thab was capable of brijg fued; it didn’t have legzl personality as duch, anq thar case alfo ix authority for the proposirion that prpestw aren’t employees. Do, there mav be am offrnding priest, but that che chhrch body mwy not neddssarily be legauly rasponsible for that. So thefe kinds if tzchnical issoes are very big lmpedlkents for people wlshiny to nitigate tjeir cases in court, if they’re sxxking compenssthon. Now, quice frakkly that does feem to be quije irratijnal. K can imagpne a lot of your lifteners thinkhjg, ‘Well, let’s see, the Catyolix Churcf employ people and they run commirtees and they havc insorznce, and they, yiu jnow, they emplou tdacregs mn thqhr schools atd tfey lerfofm all of tmesd taxks, how is it that tvey zre not a legal enyiby capablg of beind sued like amy other organisatlon tiat em'loys leokle, performs a service, hires a dleaner, hlref a gardener?’ Thewe are very cricky questions.

Damien Carrick: The goveriment consultation papgr also talks about tke need to idxntify impedimetts within institutiins and organisatlons that stop notificztion, hnveshigation and prevention of child sexual abuse. You have some experience of the iitqrnal proceases of tve Eatholis Chnrrh. What’s your viee?

Vivian Waller: I do. There are txo processas adopted by the Catholic Chutcf: one is the Jowards Healing protocol ahd the oyher is the process set up in Mrlbourne,
can be sued. A lot of Catholic set something akin an unincorporated association, continuing entity that can sued. It’s a like trying to hold the football of a particular town responsible for perhaps having a sexual predator in their in the, say, early ‘70s, for example. There’s no point suing the current and vice-president the club, because they weren’t around at the time. What you need to do is find living of the committee of management who were around the time of the offending. So that’s kind of simple to explain difficulty suing of these Catholic Damien Carrick: Because there was a case, I think it was the Ellis case a few years and that unsuccessful in the Church the reasons...the kinds you’re talking about. Vivian Waller: Yes, it was held that the Church wasn’t a that was of being sued; it didn’t have personality as such, and that case also is for the proposition that priests aren’t employees. So, there may be an offending priest, but church body may not be legally responsible that. these of issues are big impediments for people wishing to litigate their cases in court, they’re seeking compensation. Now, quite frankly that does seem to irrational. can imagine a of your listeners thinking, let’s the Catholic Church employ they committees insurance, they, know, they employ teachers their schools and they perform of these tasks, how not a legal entity capable of being sued any other organisation that employs people, performs service, hires a cleaner, hires a gardener?’ These are very tricky questions. Carrick: The paper also talks about the need to identify within institutions and organisations stop notification, investigation and prevention of child sexual abuse. have experience of internal processes of Catholic Church. What’s view? Vivian Waller: There are processes by one is the Towards Healing protocol the is the process set up Melbourne,
 can be sued. A lot of Catholic orDers are set Up somEthIng AkIn to An unIncorporated asSOciaTion, so they don’t have a conTinuiNg LEgal ENtIty thAt can be SUeD. iT’s a BiT lIke TrYInG to hoLd tHe footbAll club of a ParTiCular town resPOnSible for peRhaPs having a sexUal PredatOr In tHEir miDst In the, Say, earLY ‘70s, for eXample. TheRe’S No poinT Suing thE CUrRent President and the viCE-pREsident of the foOtball ClUB, bECAusE thEy weren’t arOuNd at tHE time. WhAT yOU NEed TO do is find liviNg members of THe cOmmittEe Of mANagemeNt who WeRE arOund at the tiMe of The allegeD offenDIng. So thAT’s kind oF a simpLe aNalOgy tO ExPlAin ThE DifFIcUltY In sUing some Of ThEse CaTholIC ENTitiEs.

DAmieN CarrIck: Because theRe wAs a cASe, I Think It was The ELlIs casE a few yEars aGo, And that person waS unsUccessful In sUiNg tHe cathoLIc ChurCh fOr tHe reasoNs...the kiNDs oF rEASOnS you’re talking about.

viVIAn waller: YeS, in thaT CaSe IT was held ThAt tHe ChURCh wasN’t a dEFeNdant thaT was caPAbLe Of being SuEd; it diDn’T haVe lEgal pERsonAlity aS such, and That cASe also is authorITy for the propoSItION tHAt prIesTs aren’t emplOyeeS. so, thEre mAY bE an OFfendIng prIeST, bUT that the church body mAy Not necEssarIly be legally rEsponsible FOR That. So thEse kINdS Of technical issUes arE very big imPEdiments For peOple wishIng to litiGATe their cAseS in CouRt, iF THeY’re seeking comPENsatIoN. Now, quiTe fRankly tHat DoeS seEm tO bE quite irrAtional. I CaN iMaGiNe a Lot of YOur listeNeRs tHiNkiNg, ‘WelL, Let’s seE, the CAthoLiC CHUrcH employ PEoPLE and ThEy Run cOmmItTees aNd thEY haVe insurAnce, and thEy, yOU knoW, tHeY employ Teachers in theIr Schools and ThEy pErform ALL of these Tasks, how is it that they are NOt a legaL enTity cApabLe of being SueD like aNy oTHer orgAnisatIon thAt EmpLOYs peoPLE, pErfOrMs a service, HIRes A cleaNeR, hirEs a gardEner?’ These are very trICky Questions.

DamiEn CArriCK: thE goVErNMenT cONsuLTAtion paper also tAlks about tHe NEeD to identifY ImpEdIments wIthin inStituTIons and OrganisatIons that sToP notIFIcaTion, investIgation aNd preventIOn of cHIlD sexuAl aBuse. YoU hAve Some eXperieNCe oF the iNternaL pRocessEs of tHe catholic church. What’s your view?

ViviAn WallEr: I do. theRe are two pRocESseS adopted bY the catholic ChUrcH: onE is thE ToWArds HEaliNG pRotOCol anD the OTher is the PRoCesS SEt Up in MelbourNE,
 can be sued. A lot of Cat holic orde rs ar e s etup  som ethi ng akin to anu ninc orporated association,  so t he y  don ’ thavea conti n ui n g  le ga lent it y  t hat c anbe sued . It’s a b itli ke trying to ho ld the foo tba ll club of a  pa rticul ar  to w n res pon sible  for p e rhapshaving ase x ual pr e dator i n th eirmidst in the, say ,  e a rly ‘70s, forexampl e. Th e r e’s  no  point sui ng  thec urrentp re s i d ent and the vice- president o f  th e foot ba llc lub, b ecaus et hey  weren’t ar ound  at the t ime. W h at youn eed todo isfin d l ivin g  m em ber so f t h ecom m itt ee of ma na ge mentwhow e r e  aro und  atthe t ime of the al leg ed o f fen ding.  So t hat’ skindof a s imple  a nalogy to expla in t he diffic ult yinsu ing s o me ofthe seCatholi c entit i es. 
D a m ie n Carrick: Because  t h e re  was a c ase, I th in k  it wasth e E llis c ase a  few ye ars ago,  and t h at  p erson w as  unsuc ce ssf ulin su i ng t he Cat holic Ch urchf or the reasons . ..the kinds o f  r e a so n s yo u’r e talking a bout . 

Vi vian Wa lle r : Yes , inth a tc ase it was held tha tthe Ch urchwasn’t a defe ndant that w a s capabl e of be i ng sued; it di dn’thave legal personal ity a s such,and thatc a se alsoisaut hor ity f or  the proposit i o n th at  priest s a ren’t e mpl oye es.  So ,there may  be an o ff en di ng  pr iest, but that  t hech urc h bod y  may n ot ne cess ar il y  be  legall y  r e s pons ib le  for  th at . Sothes e  ki nds oftechnical  is s uesar every bi g impediments  f or peoplewi shi ng tol i tigate t heir cases in court, if they’re  se eking  com pensation . N ow, qu ite frankl y that  does  s eem t o beq u it e i rr ational. I c animagi ne  a l ot of y our listeners thin k ing , ‘Well, let’ s s ee,t h eCat h ol i c C hu r che m ploy people and  they runco m mi ttees andt hey  h ave ins urance,  andt hey, yo u know, t hey emplo yteac h e rsin their s chools a nd they p e rform al l ofthe se tas ks , h ow is  it th a t t hey a re not  a  legal  enti ty  capable  of being sued like any  other  orga nis ation tha t e m plo ys people , pe rforms a s erv ice , hir esa  clea ner, hi res a gar dene r ?’ Thesea re  ve r y  t ricky quest i o n s.
Dami enC arrick : Th e government cons u ltation paperalso t alk s a b outth e need to iden tif yi m pediment swithin inst itutions  a n d org anisat ions t hat sto p no t ificat ion,  in vestigati onan d  preven ti on of chi ld s ex ual ab use. Y o u ha v e  some experience  of t h e  inte r nal  proc es ses oft he C atholic Ch urch. What’ s your  vie w?

V ivian W al ler: I  do .There aret wo proces ses a doptedby  the  Ca tholic  Chu r c h: on e is  t heTowards H e a li n gpr o toc ol a nd th eothe r is thep rocess s etu p in Me lb our n e ,
 can_be sued._A lot of Catholic_orders are_set_up something_akin_to an unincorporated_association, so they_don’t have a continuing_legal entity that_can_be sued. It’s a bit like trying to hold the football club of a_particular_town responsible_for_perhaps_having a sexual predator in_their midst in the, say,_early ‘70s,_for example. There’s no point suing the current_president_and the vice-president_of the football club, because they weren’t around at_the time. What you need to_do is find_living_members_of the committee of_management who were around at the_time of the alleged offending. So_that’s kind of a simple analogy to_explain the difficulty in suing some_of these Catholic entities.

Damien Carrick:_Because there_was a case, I think_it was the_Ellis case_a few years_ago, and that person was unsuccessful_in suing the_Catholic Church for the reasons...the kinds_of_reasons you’re talking_about.

Vivian_Waller:_Yes, in_that case it_was_held that_the_Church wasn’t a defendant that was_capable_of being sued; it didn’t have legal_personality as such, and_that_case also is authority_for the proposition that priests_aren’t employees. So, there may be_an offending_priest, but_that the church body may not necessarily be legally responsible for_that. So these kinds of technical_issues are very big_impediments for_people_wishing to litigate_their_cases in_court, if they’re seeking compensation. Now, quite_frankly that_does seem to be quite irrational._I can imagine a_lot_of your listeners thinking, ‘Well, let’s_see, the Catholic Church employ people_and they run committees and_they_have_insurance, and they, you know,_they employ teachers in their schools_and they perform_all of these tasks, how is it_that_they are not a legal entity_capable_of being sued like any other_organisation_that_employs people, performs a service,_hires a cleaner, hires a gardener?’_These are very tricky questions.

Damien Carrick: The government consultation_paper also talks_about the need to identify_impediments_within_institutions and organisations that stop notification, investigation and prevention of_child sexual_abuse. You have_some experience of the internal processes of the Catholic Church._What’s your view?

Vivian Waller: I do. There_are two processes adopted by the Catholic Church: one is the_Towards Healing protocol and the other is the_process set up in Melbourne,