 completely horrified and baffled by the concept of a romantic relationship with the companion.

Davies's Doctor never was. That makes all the difference.

As for Vicki... yes, I guess I sort of mean Amy, but Clara could count, as well; the young, hopeful representative of the current generation who wants to travel and NOT have a romantic relationship with the Doctor while doing so. Not exactly Shop-Girl, you could say. ;-)

"Personally, I think the problem isn't so much that Moffat's female characters are inherently worse than Davies' as much as (a) Moffat tends to sacrifice characters in general, male or female, to the demands of plot where Davies was more the other way around"

That's close to my way of looking at it. I'd say Davies tended to see the Doctor through the eyes of the Companions, where Moffat tends to view the Companions through the eyes of the Doctor. During the Davies years, the Companion got her own supporting cast, so there was always emphasis on how her travels with the Doctor impacted her life and those closest to her.

Moffat isn't going to spend much time with a character unless they're traveling with the Doctor, with someone like Rory's Dad not becoming significant until he accidentally tags along on an adventure, while Amy's parents are seen just long enough to say they exist. Even the Companions are an adventure, as River, Amy, and Clara all promised character-specific adventures in their future with a mystery for the Doctor to explore.

Moffat is a bit more of a traditionalist than Davies, so now it's only adventures outside the TARDIS doors. Everyday human drama is something which happens when he's not around.

Adam: I sometimes wonder, not having lived in the UK -- well, ever, really, but definitely not during the Colin Baker years -- whether these anoraks are apocryphal. I don't think I've ever met a Doctor Who fan who thought the way fans supposedly did during those years or during the portion of the Wilderness Years we're covering now, but if you've met them (as opposed to just inferring them from the assumption that those who made the program in those times were successfully giving anyone what they wanted) I have to take your word for it. I wonder if Doctor Who is the only show where its fans all think that _other_ people are the real
completely horrified and baffled by the concept of a romantic relationship with the companion. 

 davy's Doctor never was. That do all the difference. 

 As for Vicki... yes, I guess I sort of base Amy, but Clara could reckon, as well; the young, bright representative of the current generation who wants to travel and NOT suffer a romantic relationship with the Doctor while dress so. Not exactly Shop - Girl, you could pronounce. ;-) 

 " Personally, I remember the problem isn't so much that Moffat's female characters are inherently worse than Davies' equally much as (a) Moffat tends to sacrifice characters in cosmopolitan, male or female, to the demands of plot where Davies was more the other way around " 

 That's close to my manner of looking at it. I'd say Davies tended to see the Doctor through the eye of the Companions, where Moffat tends to view the Companions through the eyes of the Doctor. During the Davies years, the Companion got her own corroborate cast, so there was always emphasis on how her travels with the Doctor impacted her life and those closest to her. 

 Moffat isn't going to spend much time with a fictional character unless they're traveling with the Doctor, with someone like Rory's Dad not becoming meaning until he unintentionally tag along on an adventure, while Amy's parents are seen just long enough to say they exist. Even the Companions are an adventure, as River, Amy, and Clara all promised character - specific adventures in their future with a mystery for the Doctor to research. 

 Moffat is a bit more of a traditionalist than Davies, so now it's only adventures outside the TARDIS doors. Everyday human drama is something which happens when he's not around. 

 Adam: I sometimes wonder, not having lived in the UK -- well, always, really, but decidedly not during the Colin Baker years -- whether these anoraks are apocryphal. I don't think I've ever met a Doctor Who sports fan who thought the way fans supposedly did during those years or during the portion of the Wilderness Years we're covering now, but if you've suffer them (as opposed to precisely inferring them from the assumption that those who make the program in those fourth dimension were successfully giving anyone what they want) I have to necessitate your word for it. I wonder if Doctor Who is the only show where its fans all think that _ early _ people are the real
 colpletely horrified and bxffled by the concept mf a rkmantic felationship with the companmon.

Dqvies'w Doctor never was. Thag makes apl the duffecence.

As for Vickm... yes, I nbess J sorc if mean Amy, buj Clara coulg count, as weln; ghz young, hopeful representative of thq curremt generation whj wames tk travel and NOT have a romantic rslationvhip with the Doctor while doing so. Not exaftly Shop-Girl, you fould say. ;-)

"Pgdsogqlly, I think the probltm isn't so moch that Moffat's female charactefs arz inherentli sogve than Davmes' as much as (a) Moffat tetds to xacrifice charsctxrs un general, male or fekale, to the demandf of plot wkere Davies was more rhw othgr waf aruynd"

Ghau's rloae to ly xay of lookjng at it. I'e say Davies tended tj see the Doctkr thrjudh the eyes of the Companions, where Mofxat tends to view the Compqnions through the eygs of the Qoctor. During the Davies years, the Companion got ver oxn sukpirtine cwst, so there was always emphasis on how her twzvtls with the Doctjr impacted hfr jife and thosg closest fo her.

Moffat isn't hoing tj spebd much tyme eith a character unless thet're traveliny wuth the Doctor, witk someone liye Rpry's Cad not becoming signifncant hntil he acfidentallg tags along on av acvanture, while Amy's parents wre seen oust kong enuugh to sar they exidt. Evct the Companions age an agventure, ad River, Amy, and Clara all promised character-skechfib adventuxes in their future with a mysteri for the Doctur to explkre.

Moffet is a bit iore of a tragltionalist tian Davief, so now it's onuh adventures oitside thv UARDIS dooes. Everyday human vramx is something wkncy happens when ne's noe wrpugg.

Adam: I somedimer wumder, vot having okved in the UK -- well, eves, rezlly, but definitelu kot durint the Cojin Baker yeats -- whether these wnorans ere appcriphal. I don't think I've ever met a Doctor Whj fan who thjughb thg way fans xupposedly did during those years or ducing the portion of thg Wilderness Years we'te govering now, but yf you've ket them (as opposed ro just inferring them from the assumpfion tvat tjose who made the program in those times were successfully giving anyone qhat tier wanted) I gave to tdkz ypur wowd flc it. I wonder if Coctor Who is the only show whece its fanv cll think that _other_ people ate the real
completely horrified and baffled by the concept romantic with the Davies's Doctor never difference. for Vicki... yes, guess I sort mean Amy, but Clara could count, well; the young, hopeful representative of the current generation who wants to travel NOT have a romantic relationship with the Doctor while doing so. Not exactly you say. "Personally, think the problem isn't so much that Moffat's female characters are inherently worse than Davies' as as (a) Moffat tends to sacrifice characters in male or female, to demands of plot where Davies more other way That's to way of looking it. I'd say Davies tended to see the Doctor through the eyes of the Companions, where Moffat to view through the of Doctor. the Davies years, got her own supporting cast, so emphasis on how her travels with the Doctor her life those closest to her. Moffat isn't to spend much time with a character unless traveling with the Doctor, with someone like Rory's Dad not becoming significant until he accidentally on an adventure, while parents are seen long to they Even the are an adventure, as River, Amy, and Clara all promised character-specific in their future with a mystery for the Doctor to is bit more of traditionalist than Davies, so it's adventures outside the TARDIS human is when not Adam: I sometimes wonder, having lived in the UK well, ever, really, but Baker years -- whether these anoraks are apocryphal. don't think I've ever met a Doctor fan who thought the way fans supposedly did during those years or the portion Wilderness Years we're covering now, but if you've them (as opposed to inferring them from the assumption that those who made program those times successfully giving anyone they wanted) I to take your it. I if Who show where its fans all think _other_ are the real
 completely horrified and bafFled by the cOncepT of A roMaNtic RelaTionship with thE CompAnion.

Davies's Doctor neveR was. THaT MakeS AlL the dIfferenCE.

AS FOr VIcKi... Yes, i gUEsS I sorT of Mean Amy, But Clara coUld CoUnt, as well; the YOuNg, hopeful rEprEsentative of The CurrenT gEneRAtion Who Wants To travEL and NOt have a romAnTIc relaTIonship WITh The DOctor while doing so. nOt EXactly Shop-Girl, You couLd SAy. ;-)

"pERsoNalLy, I think thE pRobleM Isn't so mUCh THAT MoFFat's female chaRacters are iNHerEntly wOrSe tHAn DaviEs' as mUcH As (a) moffat tends To saCrifice chAracteRS in geneRAl, male oR femalE, to The DemaNDs Of PloT wHEre dAvIes WAs mOre the otHeR wAy aroUnd"

THAT'S ClosE to My waY of loOking at it. I'd saY DaVies TEndEd to sEe the doctOr ThrouGh the eYes of ThE Companions, wherE MofFat tends tO viEw The coMpaniONs throUgh The Eyes of tHe DoctoR. durInG THE DAvies years, the CompaNiON GoT her own sUpportINg CaST, so there WaS alWays EMPhasiS on hOW hEr travelS with tHE DOcTor impaCtEd her lIfE anD thOse clOSest To her.

MOffat isn'T goinG To spend much timE With a characteR UnLESs THey'rE trAveling with The DOCtor, With SOmEonE Like ROry's DAd NOt BEcoming significant uNtIl he acCidenTally tags alonG on an advenTURE, while AmY's paREnTS are seen just loNg enoUgh to say thEY exist. EvEn the companioNs are an adVENture, as RIveR, AmY, anD ClARA aLl promised chaRACter-SpEcific aDveNtures iN thEir FutUre WiTh a mysterY for the DOcToR tO eXplOre.

MoFFat is a biT mOre Of A trAditiONalist Than DAvieS, sO nOW it'S only adVEnTURes oUtSiDe thE TArDiS dooRs. EvERydAy human Drama is soMetHIng wHiCh Happens When he's not aroUnD.

Adam: I someTiMes Wonder, NOT having lIved in the UK -- well, ever, realLY, but defIniTely nOt duRing the CoLin baker yEarS -- WhetheR these AnoraKs Are APOcrypHAL. I Don'T tHink I've eveR MEt a doctoR WHo faN who thoUght the way fans suppOSedLy did during thOse YearS OR dUriNG tHE poRtIOn oF THe Wilderness YeaRs we're coveRiNG nOw, but if you'VE meT tHem (as opPosed to Just iNFerring Them from tHe assumptIoN thaT THosE who made thE program In those tiMEs werE SuCcessFulLy giviNg AnyOne whAt they WAntEd) I haVe to taKe Your woRd for It. i wonder iF Doctor Who is the only show Where iTs fanS alL think thaT _otHEr_ pEople are tHe reAl
 completely horrified andbaffled by  thecon cep tof a  rom antic relation s hipwith the companion.

D avies 's Doct o rnever  was. T h at m ake sal l t he di ffere nce .

As f or Vicki.. . y es , I guess Is or t of meanAmy , but Claracou ld cou nt , a s  well ; t he yo ung, h o pefulrepresent at i ve oft he curr e n tgene ration who wantst ot ravel and NOThave a  r o ma n t icrel ationshipwi th th e  Doctor wh i l e  do i ng so. Not ex actly Shop- G irl , youco uld say. ; -)

" Pe r son ally, I thi nk t he proble m isn' t  so muc h  that M offat' s f ema le c h ar ac ter sa rei nh ere n tly  worse t ha nDavie s' a s m u ch a s ( a) M offat  tends to sac rif icec har acter s ingene ra l, ma le orfemal e,  to the demands  ofplot wher e D av ies  w as mo r e theoth erway aro und"

T h at' sc l o se  to my way of look in g at  it. I'd  say D a vi es tended t osee  the D octor  thr o ug h the ey es oft he  C ompanio ns , wher eMof fat  tend s  toview t he Compa nions through the ey e s of the Doct o r. D ur i ng t heDavies year s, t h e Co mpan i on  go t  herown s up p or t ing cast, so therewa s alwa ys em phasis on how  her trave l s with the  Doc t or impacted her l ife a nd those c l osest to  her. 

Moffat  isn't go i n g to spe ndmuc h t ime w it h a character u nles sthey're  tr aveling  wi ththe  Do ct or, withsomeoneli ke  R or y's  Dadn ot becom in g s ig nif icant untilhe ac cide nt al l y t ags alo n go n  anad ve ntur e,wh ile A my's par ents ar e seen ju stl ongen ou gh to s ay they exist .Even the C om pan ions a r e  an adve nture, as River, Amy, a n d Clara  al l pro mise d charact er- specif ica dventu res in  thei rfut u r e wit h amys te ry for the D oct or to  e xplo re.

Mo ffat is a bit more ofa traditional ist  tha n Da vie s ,s o n ow it' s only adventures  outside t he TA RDIS doors .  Ev er yday hu man dra ma is somethi ng whichhappens w he n he ' s  no t around.
Adam: I  sometime s  wond e r,  nothav ing li ve d i n the  UK -- wel l, ev er, re al ly, bu t def in itely no t during the Colin Bake r year s --whe ther thes e a n ora ks are ap ocry phal. I do n't  th ink I 've evermeta  D oct o r Who  fan who thoug h tthe w ay  fans suppo s e d lydid d uri n g thos e ye ars or during the portion of the  Wil d e rne ssY ears  w e're coveringnow ,b u t if you 'v e met them(as oppo se d  to j ust in ferrin g themf r om the as sump tio n that th ose  w h o madeth ep rogram  inth ose ti mes we r e su c c essfully givinganyon e whatt hey  want ed ) I hav e  totake yourword for it . I wo nder  if D octor W ho  is th e o nl y show whe r e its fan s all  thinkth at _ oth er_ pe ople a re th e re al 
 completely_horrified and_baffled by the concept_of a_romantic_relationship with_the_companion.

Davies's Doctor never_was. That makes_all the difference.

As for_Vicki... yes, I_guess_I sort of mean Amy, but Clara could count, as well; the young, hopeful_representative_of the_current_generation_who wants to travel and_NOT have a romantic relationship_with the_Doctor while doing so. Not exactly Shop-Girl, you_could_say. ;-)

"Personally, I_think the problem isn't so much that Moffat's female_characters are inherently worse than Davies'_as much as_(a)_Moffat_tends to sacrifice characters_in general, male or female, to_the demands of plot where Davies_was more the other way around"

That's close_to my way of looking at_it. I'd say Davies tended_to see_the Doctor through the eyes_of the Companions,_where Moffat_tends to view_the Companions through the eyes of_the Doctor. During_the Davies years, the Companion got_her_own supporting cast,_so_there_was always_emphasis on how_her_travels with_the_Doctor impacted her life and those_closest_to her.

Moffat isn't going to spend much_time with a character_unless_they're traveling with the_Doctor, with someone like Rory's_Dad not becoming significant until he_accidentally tags_along on_an adventure, while Amy's parents are seen just long enough to_say they exist. Even the Companions_are an adventure, as_River, Amy,_and_Clara all promised_character-specific_adventures in_their future with a mystery for the_Doctor to_explore.

Moffat is a bit more of_a traditionalist than Davies,_so_now it's only adventures outside the_TARDIS doors. Everyday human drama is_something which happens when he's_not_around.

Adam:_I sometimes wonder, not having_lived in the UK -- well,_ever, really, but_definitely not during the Colin Baker years_--_whether these anoraks are apocryphal. I_don't_think I've ever met a Doctor_Who_fan_who thought the way fans_supposedly did during those years or_during the portion of the Wilderness Years we're covering_now, but if_you've met them (as opposed_to_just_inferring them from the assumption that those who made the_program in_those times were_successfully giving anyone what they wanted) I have to take_your word for it. I wonder if_Doctor Who is the only show where its fans all think_that _other_ people are the real