(This is a continuation of an earlier post)


(I am sorry you found this offensive.  It was not my intent to offend.  I was 
leading up to another point, which I discuss in more detail below.)


I can see you have a revulsion for bestiality that far exceeds my distaste for 
homosexuality.  Certainly if I spoke about homosexuality the way you speak of 
bestiality, nobody would have any trouble labelling me a homophobe.  Let me ask 
this gently:  why are you so judgemental of other people's sexual preferences?  
What happened to "No doubt I am free to do anything"?  I think you have a 
serious double standard here.  When you describe a comparison between 
homosexuality and bestiality as "slimey" and "sleazy", you are making an 
implicit judgement that bestiality is perverted, sinful, disgusting, 
unnatural--in short, all the things that society once thought about 
homosexuality.  Not all people share your view.  You claim not to know any 
sincere zoophiles, but this does not mean that they do not exist.  They even 
have their own newsgroup:  alt.sex.bestiality.  Are you going to accuse them 
all of being mere "jokers"?

I notice you deleted the main point of my comment:  the fact that the only 
Biblical condemnations of bestiality occur in connection with the Levitical 
prohibitions against homosexuality.  While there are some New Testament 
passages that can arguably be taken as condemning homosexuality, there are none 
that condemn bestiality.  One of your main points seems to be that Christian 
homosexuality is acceptable due to the lack of any "clear" New Testament 
statements against it; if this is a valid argument, then should not Christian 
zoophilia be made that much more acceptable by the fact that the New Testament 
makes no reference, clear or unclear, to the subject at all?

I am quite serious here.  If I am going to accept homosexuality as Biblically 
acceptable on the basis of your arguments, then I am going to be fair and apply 
the same standards to everyone else's declared sexual preferences as well.  If 
the arguments you make for homosexuality can be applied to other sexual 
preferences as well, I'm going to apply them and see what comes up.  I'm not 
trying to "torpedo a serious issue" by using what you label "a ridiculous 
joke".  I posted a question about how we should interpret Biblical guidelines 
for Christian sexuality, and I don't think such a question is "irrelevant" in a 
group called "soc.religion.christian".  The Bible discusses homosexuality and 
bestiality together in the same context, and therefore I feel I have a good 
precedent for doing the same.


I don't know whether it makes any difference, but for the record, this is not a 
side issue for me.  I believe loving one another includes not encouraging 
people to defile themselves, therefore it is of high importance to determine 
whether God regards certain sexual acts as defiling.  I can read in the New 
Testament that "God has joined together" heterosexual couples, and that the 
marriage bed is undefiled.  I can read in the Old Testament that homosexual 
intercourse and bestiality defile a person whether or not that person is under 
the Law.  If gay Christians can validly put aside the Old Testament standards 
of defilement, then I want to know so that I can fairly apply it to all the 
sexual practices that defiled a person in the old days.  I don't think it's 
right to take just bits and pieces of the Law and try and apply them to 
Christians today, e.g. bestiality still defiles you but homosexuality doesn't.  
That was pretty much what you said earlier, right?  You used different 
examples, but I think you said essentially the same thing about it being wrong 
to apply only certain parts of the Law to Christians. 


It was not my intent to stir up such an emotional reaction.  I personally don't 
get all that upset discussing alternatives to the monogamous heterosexual 
orientation; I'm afraid I naively assumed that others would have a similar 
attitude.  Please note that I have never intended to equate homosexuality with 
child abuse.  I have merely noted that, for all the lack of "clear" NT 
condemnation of homosexuality, there is an even greater lack of NT condemnation 
(or even mention) of bestiality, a practice which a number of people (e.g. on 
alt.sex.bestiality) consider to be their true sexual orientation.


This is an excellent question, and I pray that you will not treat it as a mere 
rhetorical question, but will genuinely seek to discover and understand the 
answer.  I recommend you begin with a little introspection into why you 
yourself have much the same attitude towards zoophilia.  Why do you find 
bestiality so repugnant that you regard it as slanderous to even mention in 
connection with other alternative sexual orientations?  Why do you not apply 
all the same verses about love and tolerance to zoophiles the way you apply 
them to homosexuals?

Is it because you automatically experience a subjective feeling of revulsion at 
the thought?  A lot of people have the same experience at the thought of 
homosexual intercourse.  Is it because you regard the practice as socially 
unacceptable?  A lot of people regard homosexuality as socially unacceptable.  
Do you feel that it violates the traditional Judeo-Christian standard of sexual 
morality?  Many people feel that homosexuality does.  Do you feel the Bible 
condemns it?  Many people think the Bible says more to condemn homosexuality 
than it does to condemn bestiality.  Why then do you think comparing bestiality 
with homosexuality is insulting to homosexuality?  If you can honestly answer 
this question, you will have come a long way towards understanding why many 
people feel the same way about homosexuality as you feel about bestiality.

Also please note that I am not in any sense condemning *people*.  I am merely 
pointing out that when I read the Bible I see certain sexual *practices* that 
the Bible appears to condemn, e.g. sex outside of marriage.  When I say I think 
adultery and pre-marital sex are sinful, do you take that as me failing to love 
my neighbor?  When you treat bestiality as something disgusting and 
unmentionable, are you disobeying "repeated orders not to judge or condemn 
others"?  When you say other Christians are guilty of sinning by condemning you 
and judging you, are you by that accusation making yourself guilty of the same 
offense?  Or are you and I both simply taking note about *practices* the Bible 
brands as sinful, and leaving the judgement of the *people* up to God?


I'm not sure what you mean by the above two paragraphs.  If you mean that Jesus 
is the Truth, and that He accepts sinners, and does not reject them, then I 
agree.  If we were not sinners, then we would not *need* a Savior.  Our 
salvation in Christ, however, does not mean that sin is now irrelevant for us, 
and we can now do whatever we want.  Nor does Christ's grace mean that those 
who refer to sin as "sin" are being judgemental or intolerant.  I am speaking 
in general terms here, not specifically about homosexuality.  If the Bible 
calls something "sin", then it is not unreasonable for Christians to call it 
sin too.

As applied to Christian homosexuality, I think the only definitive authority on 
Christian sexuality is the Bible.  If you make a list of everything the Bible 
says on the subject of homosexual intercourse, I think you will find that every 
verse on the list is negative and condemning at worst, and "unclear" at best.  
The most pro-gay statement you could make about the list is that there is some 
dispute about the New Testament verses which many people interpret as 
condemning homosexual intercourse.  That is, from a gay perspective, the most 
positive thing you can say about the Bible's treatment of homosexuality is that 
some verses fail to clearly condemn it.  That's it.  Jesus declared all foods 
clean, the council at Jerusalem declared that Gentiles were not required to 
keep the ritual Law, but nobody ever reclassified homosexual intercourse from 
being an abomination deserving of death to being an accepted Christian 
practice.  You have verses describing homosexual intercourse as an abomination 
that defiles both Jews under the Law and Gentiles not under the Law, and you 
have some verses which are at best "not clear" but which some people believe 
*are* clear in their condemnation of homosexual behavior, and that's the sum 
total of what the Bible says about same-sex intercourse.

I can appreciate (from personal experience) your desire to have everything 
simple, cut-and-dried, black-and-white, what-I-want- is-ok, and 
those-who-oppose-me-are-wicked.  However, I do not think the Bible makes your 
case as definitively as you would like it to.  In fact, I don't believe it says 
anything positive about your case at all.  Yes, I know the verses about loving 
one another, and not judging one another, but that's not really the issue, is 
it?  You know and admit that there are still things that are sinful for 
Christians to do, since you say it is wrong for Christians to condemn you.  
Therefore, the issue is whether the Bible says homosexual intercourse is a sin.  
Even if you do challenge the clarity of the New Testament verses, you are still 
left with the fact that the only thing the Bible does say clearly about 
homosexual intercourse is that it is an abomination that defiles both those who 
are under the law and those who are not.

- Mark
