text: #ubuntu-phone 2012-01-06
  <maxolasersquad> Anyone else seen https://code.google.com/p/monav/
  <maxolasersquad> It may be a good solution to have GPS navigation on the phone.
  <Guest11875> nice find! we definitely need to have maps and navigationâ¦
  #ubuntu-phone 2013-01-02
  <h00k> oho look.
  <seiflotfy> hey guys
  <seiflotfy> mhall119: around?
  <mhall119> seiflotfy: I am
  <seiflotfy> quick question, is zeitgeist being used in ubuntu phone?
  <seiflotfy> if yes are you guys using the qml bindings we created
  <mhall119> seiflotfy: no idea, but it wouldn't surprise me since it's used in Unity
  <popey> you probably want to use #ubuntu-discuss
  <mhall119> I don't know about QML bindings
  <seiflotfy> mhall119: we have qml bindings since over a year now
  <seiflotfy> mhall119: http://wm161.net/2011/10/28/libqzeitgeist-0-8-0/
  <mhall119> seiflotfy: cool, I'll pass that along
  <seiflotfy> :d
  <boulabiar> Does the phone use wayland ?
  <RzR> hi
  <RzR> are there ubuntu4android devels around ?
  <RzR> pop corns :)
  <tola> Does anyone know what will be the default browser for Ubuntu for Phones? Will it be Webkit or Gecko based?
  <WanderingEnder> ok, so. The last thing I heard about this was awhile back. This is not the full stack, not some chrooted... thing.
  <mhall119> tola: I don't know if that's been decided yet
  <Aiki> mhall119: I know qt is just a toolkit, but recently canonical has been cutting slices on the base ISO, so i thought it would be smart to switch all the focus to Qt.
  <RzR> WanderingEnder, yes I played w/ chroot too
  <FabianS> Most likely webkit.
  <mhall119> Aiki: even with a focus on Qt, there are a lot of Gnome components in Ubuntu that aren't going away anytime soon
  <WanderingEnder> I have a RAZR, original version (Droid, obviouzly), I'm wondering if I could put this on it.
  <RzR> but I was wondering if there are public stuff to test out ?
  <WanderingEnder> When ther eare reference builds available.
  <tola> mhall119: What about the app runtime? Jono seems to think that will be Webkit, does anyone know otherwise?
  <Muphrid> what will be the language for the SDK? QML?
  <user82> when will the images be available for testing..does anyone know?
  <mhall119> tola: for HTML5 apps?
  <Aiki> mhall119: IC Pitty... :( Thanks though!
  <tola> mhall119: yes
  <RzR> cordova ?
  <mhall119> tola: again, I don't know, but Webkit wouldn't surprise me
  <mhall119> Muphrid: QML is going to be the recommended one
  <mhall119> but AFAIK it'll be open to others
  <Muphrid> mhall119: alright, thanks
  <tvoss> mhall119, ping
  <tola> mhall119: It would be a shame to miss out on all the new APIs being added to Gecko http://wiki.mozilla.org/WebAPI
  <mhall119> tvoss: pong
  <tola> mhall119: But maybe that's an incentive to add an implementation of those APIs to Webkit...
  <mhall119> tola: any API worth developing for should be as cross-platform as possible
  <tola> mhall119: Like the new Ubuntu application environment you mean?
  <tola> mhall119: (I agree, I'm just being sarcastic)
  <WanderingEnder> Also, honest question.
  <WanderingEnder> How badly are US carriers going to be able to gut Ubuntu.
  <mhall119> WanderingEnder: that's a business thing, I don't think anyone here can answer that
  <mhall119> ideally they wouldn't want to change it at all
  <WanderingEnder> Yeah, but look at Verizon.
  <WanderingEnder> Also, the overview page says you'll need an Atom or Quad Core A9 for desktop convergence.
  <mhall119> WanderingEnder: as a Verizon customer, I know exactly what you mean :)
  <WanderingEnder> I thought we were able to get away with dual core 1GHz for that.
  <tola> btw, the reason I was asking about the web app runtime is that I've worked on some web apps that would be cool to port to Ubuntu for phones. They use the new Web APIs in Gecko, and one of them is a browser app (hence my other question) https://github.com/mozilla-b2g/gaia
  <mhall119> WanderingEnder: that I don't know about, I remember the UfA requirements originally said dual-core ARM
  <Chelsea> So, after doing reading for the last hour straight on this subject, just to be clear on this whole matter, there is no product (just software and ecosystem). Just like the Ubuntu-TV, right?
  <mhall119> Chelsea: correct, this isn't something you can go get right now
  <WanderingEnder> This is just high level for OEMs and operators. http://www.ubuntu.com/devices/phone/operators-and-oems
  <mhall119> for Canonical, the softwre is the product, but there is no hardware
  <WanderingEnder> (Both to my statement of Quad Core and to 'where do I get this thing?')
  <tola> Where's the source code btw?
  <Chelsea> mhall119, I really don't think a big "announcement" is the way to go if they're just looking for oems. This was old news allready. Some ppl's expectations where higher.
  <mhall119> tola: the components and toolkit are here: https://launchpad.net/~ui-toolkit/+archive/ppa
  <mhall119> instructiosn for instaling them are on http://developer.ubuntu.com/get-started/gomobile/
  <WanderingEnder> I'm not really seeing anything new, actually, than the old announcement that just looked like "Motorola WebKit Native."
  <gotwig> hey there
  <WanderingEnder> Except that the requirements for desktop have doubled.
  <Muphrid> rewriting my other question in the other channel: If I make an ubuntu customization (say a derivative) on the phone and make an image of it, is it possible to boot this new image on another phone? this is basically asking if the bootloader is locked
  <gotwig> what about scopes and lenses for ubuntu for phones? I dont see a point about that here http://developer.ubuntu.com/get-started/gomobile/
  <mhall119> gotwig: there shouldn't be anything different for lenses/scopes on the phone interface
  <gotwig> mhall119, but how does the stuff show up :X
  <mhall119> gotwig: same way it does on the desktop
  <gotwig> mhall119, what is with the right click?
  <WanderingEnder> Muphrid, that's between you, your device manufacturer, and your carrier.
  <mhall119> gotwig: I don't know how previews will work, if that's what you mean
  <gotwig> mhall119, yeah ^^
  <WanderingEnder> I own a Verizon phone with a locked boot carrier, by Motorola. I expect hell to freeze over before Verizon acknoledges US law requiring interoperability.
  <tola> mhall119: Is that just for developing QML apps?
  <mhall119> gotwig: see the image at the top of http://www.jonobacon.org/2013/01/02/announcing-ubuntu-for-phones/ ?  Those are lenses on the phone
  <mhall119> tola: "that" being what?
   * RzR http://rzr.online.fr/q/ubuntu# is #UbuntuPhone open ? I plan to adapt it for !N950Club which already support !Ubuntu #Chroot (watch video)
  <Muphrid> WanderingEnder: right, so it will be like android, the manufacturer decides
  <FabianS> Buing phones in the USA seems like a huge pain to me.
  <mhall119> FabianS: it is
  <WanderingEnder> Muphrid, its a cell phone. The carrier will always decide, and the manufacturer will obey.
  <FabianS> With several non-compatible networks and stuff like that.
  <FabianS> At least all the other countries agreed on one standard.
  <WanderingEnder> Canonical understands that, look at the OEMs and Carriers page.
  <Muphrid> true
  <Muphrid> heh
  <tola> mhall119: Sorry, the "components and toolkit" you can download, do they only enable QML-based apps to be run?
  <WanderingEnder> Noting how you can develop your carrier specific bloatware easily.
  <mhall119> FabianS: except S. Korea, I think, who also uses CDMA
  <gotwig> hide for the launcher on  the phone.. something i miss on my desktop
  <mhall119> tola: yes, those are the QML components
  <FabianS> mhall119: Do they have only CDMA or both CDMA and GSM?
  <mhall119> FabianS: probably both, like the USA
  <mhall119> you know, just to make it more difficult
  <Muphrid> WanderingEnder: Can you link the page?
  <WanderingEnder> http://www.ubuntu.com/devices/phone/operators-and-oems
  <Muphrid> thanks
  <FabianS> Here the only real stupid thing is the choice of LTE frequencies.
  <FabianS> But that's mainly apple's fault.
  <WanderingEnder> Carrier Exclusivity and Custom Capabilities.
  <FabianS> All other phone companies managed to put LTE chips in their phones that support more than two frequencies.
  <WanderingEnder> I mean, basically, in the US, if you don't play ball with the carriers, the manufacturers will not use your OS, cause they carriers won't carry that phone.
  <WanderingEnder> So, Canonical will guess how high when Verizon says jump.
  <mhall119> WanderingEnder: more likely there will be an OEM between
  <WanderingEnder> I guess I'm wondering how badly carriers and OEMs will rip this apart.
  <jaduncan> WanderingEnder: see Android.
  <FabianS> But they hardly touched iOS and WP.
  <mhall119> http://developer.ubuntu.com/get-started/gomobile/ is up and running again
  <tvoss> mhall119, \o/
  <sivang> hi all
  <mhall119> hi sivang
  <sivang> hey mhall119
  <sivang> is this the channel that helped produce this: http://www.ubuntu.com/devices/phone/operators-and-oems ?
  <mhall119> sivang: this is a public discussion channel for the phone project
  <sivang> mhall119: excellent
  <mhall119> sivang: do you have questions about that page?
  <sivang> mhall119: first of all, I think that's the best attempt at biting at the apple (but I may be a bit biased being ubuntu universe develoepr for quite some time and uploader to main through sponsorship in ancient times)
  <mhall119> I'm a bit biased myself, so that's okay :)
  <sivang> mhall119: I would be anxious to try this phone, not sure I could afford it money wise, but would be dying to try it.
  <sivang> mhall119: I was with the community team pre-mataro, if that tells you something..
  <sivang> mhall119: and used to email with the sabdfl occasionally ;)
  <ubuntubhoy> sivang: images will be released for the Galaxy nexus soon
  <sivang> amazing
  <ubuntubhoy> not the most expensive handset anymore
  <mhall119> ^^ that
  <Walther>  So, nice work on the Ubuntu phone, when will it be available for download?
   * sivang wonders who around here still recalls Mataro besides kdub 
  <mhall119> though I can forsee a run on those phones on ebay and craigslist once those images are out :)
  <k1l_> so there will be an image for the nexus4, too? or do the devs still wait for google to deliver their device? :)
  <mhall119> Walther: I don't have a solid time frame on those images yet
  <mhall119> k1l_: I've only heard that there will be images for the galaxy nexus
  <sivang> mhall119: what's the way to contribute and get noticed for Ubuntu phone?
   * mhall119 doesn't recall Mataro
  <k1l_> mhall119: ok
  <Walther> Also, how much of it will be open source / closed source?
  <sivang> mhall119: 2004, after Warty Warthog
  <mhall119> sivang: currently we have the UI toolkit available for people to get started making/porting apps
  <Walther> Will it be possible to contribute in near-official or truly official ports to other "open" devices, namely, Nokia N9 and the like?
  <mhall119> Walther: as much as possible will be open source
  <sivang> mhall119: ah, so it is not an open source project...
  <sivang> mhall119: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MataroConference
  <mhall119> sivang: the images are not available yet
  <ubuntubhoy> sivang: can't be fully open sourced - vendors and OEM's need an amount of control over devices
  <ubuntubhoy> or they won't buy into it
  <mhall119> but from what jono and rick spencer were saying on the OMG stream earlier, it should all be available under an open license
  <mhall119> with the probable exception of hardware drivers
  <sivang> ubuntubhoy: mer is open source and you can contribute there , and sailfish will be apparently, so I guess there's a way?
  <mhall119> though even most of that should, thanks to Google and Android, be open
  <mhall119> it will ultimately depend on the hardware used though
  <FabianS> Sailfish isn't FOSS.
  <FabianS> Only the core, not the UI.
  <ubuntubhoy> mhall119: even on Android OEM's like to lock down bootloaders
  <FabianS> The Swipe UI nokia made for Meego on the N9 is closed to.
  <sivang> FabianS: but to contribute that's all you care..
  <mhall119> ubuntubhoy: well bootloaders are an entirely different matter
  <mhall119> an OEM can lock a bootloader running 100% open software
  <ubuntubhoy> but they are still linked
  <sivang> mhall119: is it using lybhybris?
  <mhall119> ubuntubhoy: I mean that what the OEM does with the bootloader won't have any bearing on the openness of our software's development
  <mhall119> sivang: I don't know
  <sivang> *libhybris
  <ubuntubhoy> mhall119: I get that - it's just another factor to consider is all
  <sivang> so it is developed not in th eopen so far..
  <ubuntubhoy> well, nothing has been released yet
  <ubuntubhoy> so can't really say yet
  <mhall119> sivang: it was developed internally up until now
  <sivang> mhall119: I see, with voluteers as well?
  <Walther> Also, just an interested thought - will there be parts of Ubuntu Phone project merged to the Ubuntu Tablet project?
  <mhall119> sivang: what do yu mean?
  <Walther> The UI demo seemed much more sleek than the recent videos of Ubuntu Nexus 7 project
  <Walther> and the same UI ideas could perform well on the tablet as well
  <Walther> swipe, gestures, speech recognition HUD, etc
  <sivang> mhall119: well, before warty warthog released, there was a community team as well that was per-invited to join the fun before the release :)
  <ubuntubhoy> The N7 project is still only about getting the core OS working
  <ubuntubhoy> no UI stuff being done
  <mhall119> Walther: all form factors will eventually share the same foundation
  <ubuntubhoy> at least in public
  <sivang> mhall119: as you can see, I'm highly keen on community matters
  <mhall119> sivang: me too :)
  <sivang> mhall119: observer ;) http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.linux.ubuntu.doc/70
  <sivang> mhall119: notice the dates..
  <mhall119> sivang: there was some non-canonical folks contributing via skunkworks
  <sivang> I'm in old timer, too old a even.
  <Walther> BTW, am I getting the right impression that mhall119 is a developer working for canonical? Any other actual employees stating ~"official" opinions here?
  <sivang> mhall119: ah it has a name today? what is skunkworks?
  <mhall119> Walther: former-developer, I'm on the community team now
  <mhall119> I wasn't involved in the development of the phone
  <sivang> lately, I'm feeling addicted to mobile os development
  <mhall119> sivang: skunkworks is a program to bring in community people to contribute to all kinds of internal projects prior to their official announcement
  <spjt> So has anyone finished a fart app yet
  <mhall119> sivang: http://mhall119.com/2012/11/welcome-to-the-skunk-works/
  <Walther> And yeah, repeating my previous (important) question - will it be possible to contribute to official and/or non-official ports to other devices, or preferably, not ports but actual "device support"?
  <mhall119> spjt: not yet, it's yours for the taking
  <sivang> mhall119: just read it, so mark named it after 10 years :)
  <Walther> It would be awesome to be able to flash my N9 with Ubuntu, and have it run the same exact OS build that a nexus 4 with Ubuntu would
  <mhall119> sivang: perhaps it was a re-initialization
  <Walther> (separate ports are always a headache, no proper updates etc)
  <ubuntubhoy> mhall119: quick question, when the GNex UOS images become available will they be announcing it or will they just 'be there' without a fanfare ?
  <spjt> I'm getting 404 errors when installing the QML toolkit preview (second command)
  <mhall119> ubuntubhoy: I'm sure it'll be announced and picked up by all the usual media
  <ubuntubhoy> K
  <ubuntubhoy> was just wondering after the N7 image went live prior to its announced release time
  <spjt> Is there an emulator image?
  <mhall119> spjt: emulator for phone hardware?
  <spjt> mhall119: I'd think it would use the Android emulator.
  <Walther> Are there *any* images available yet?
  <mhall119> Walther: not yet, only the app development components
  <Walther> that's what i thought.
  <spjt> Has anyone else gotten the QML toolkit installed?
  <pmcgowan> spjt: we can do that, use the android emulator, will keep you posted, we have played with that a bit
  <ubuntubhoy> The Android emulator works pretty well now
  <FabianS> It's really slow though.
  <ubuntubhoy> no where near as bad as it was
  <spjt> There must be some way to emulate it, otherwise there'd be no way to know if anything works at all
  <mhall119> spjt: it'll probably run on the desktop, but yes it does make it hard to test certain things
  <spjt> W: Failed to fetch http://ppa.launchpad.net/ui-toolkit/ppa/ubuntu/dists/precise/main/source/Sources  404  Not Found
  <spjt> mhall119: I mean the actual phone OS itself, not the apps
  <rsalveti> it's not hard to emulate it, specially as have qemu working nicely with the android sdk
  <mhall119> spjt: /w 51
  <mhall119> blah, ignore that
  <spjt> Ot
  <spjt> I only want the emulator to play around with it, so it's not too big of a deal..
  <pmcgowan> mhall119: I dont think the source packages have been published, but the ui is qml anyway
  <pmcgowan> the toolkit I mean
  <spjt> I'm more interested in finding out why I can't install the toolkit.
  <popey> spjt: I just tried here, and it works okay
  <Gaggo> hooray
  <mhall119> spjt: what error are you getting?
  <leonardo> omg
  <spjt> I don't get any errors with add-apt-repository ppa:ui-toolkit/ppa. apt-get update gives me W: Failed to fetch http://ppa.launchpad.net/ui-toolkit/ppa/ubuntu/dists/precise/main/source/Sources  404  Not Found
  <mhall119> spjt: ah, packages are only there for Quantal atm
  <sivang> there's an issue signing to the wiki
  <spjt> mhall119: ok then...
  <sivang> I'm using my lp creds
  <ubuntubhoy> installing fine here
  <Mercury> mhall119: Is the base X, wayland, or something else entirely?
   * sivang feels the SSO is surprised to see me back
  <mhall119> Mercury: I'm not entirely sure
  <mhall119> sivang: you can't expect to be gone for so long and have it just immediately welcome you back into it's life
  <sivang> mhall119: LOLs
  <mhall119> bring flowers or something
  <sivang> granted
  <sivang> mhall119: I'm getting too old
  <FabianS> Some german news site says that Ubuntu phone uses Android drivers.
  <FabianS> Any confirmation on this?
  <popey> our own site says that
  <sivang> FabianS: this is mentioned on the releas web pages
  <popey> http://www.ubuntu.com/devices/phone
  <mhall119> The nexus 7 images do too
  <FabianS> Wonder how they do that.
  <popey> "Ubuntu runs well on entry-level smartphones â yet it uses the same drivers as Android"
  <k1l_> FabianS: in the video mark mentions that it will work with android kernels and android drivers
  <mhall119> IIRC, the drivers have been submitted to the upstream kernel already, but haven't landed in it yet
  <sivang> FabianS: read carefully :) hence why I was asking if it was using libhybris https://github.com/stskeeps/libhybris
  <Mercury> FabianS: Ubuntu is compatable with a typical Android Board Support Package (BSP).
  <sivang> FabianS: but having applied to work for Linaro, I know that the linaro.org project did that natively.
  <sivang> FabianS: gathering vendors from all overs, literally
  <sivang> FabianS: and creating a cool common core to run ubuntu on and devices
  <sivang> :)
  <sivang> mhall119: I have some control over the material, mind you ;)
  <HumanBeing> I asked this before, but I didn't get an answer: What's about the developement of Ubuntu for Android? Is it dead?
  <popey> HumanBeing: no
  <Mercury> FabianS: I read that as 'we can run natively an an Android kernel', possibly with the extra library pieces normally used for the camera, cell radio, etc.
  <sivang> mhall119: flowers not needed, but a kiss on the chick could help ;)
  <HumanBeing> popey Great, thanks
  <popey> Êâ¿à² 
  <mhall119> HumanBeing: Ubuntu for Android was pretty much stock Ubuntu with some custom Android work, IIRC
  <sivang> popey: you I remember from ancient times
  <mhall119> sivang: you calling popey ancient?
  <ubuntubhoy> you saying he's not ?
  <mhall119> mind you, I'm happy whenever I talk to someone who makes me feel younger, rather than older
  <sivang> mhall119: haha
  <sivang> mhall119: he's been with Ubuntu for a *while*
  <mhall119> I know
  <sivang> 'wiki says no'
   * sivang retries
  <sivang> mhall119: it uses debs right?
  <mhall119> sivang: ubuntu?
  <HumanBeing> and I've got another question... are there any news about the NexPhone (www.nexcrea.com). In my eyes this would be a perfect piece of hardware for the Ubuntu for phones
  <mhall119> HumanBeing: I stopped paying attention when they didn't guarantee any work was actually going to be done for the money
  <spjt> I want the ubuntu phone on the Galaxy Note II. I love the pen.
  <sivang> mhall119: thje phone version ;)
  <mhall119> sivang: I don't think it's that far along yet, but debs would be the obvious way for it to go
  <sivang> finally got a hello from wiki!
  <popey> sivang: I'm not _that_ old!
  <sivang> mhall119: hmm, I mean, what's the pkging system there?
  <sivang> popey: :)
  <popey> well, maybe I am.
  <sivang> popey: do you recall me?
  <mhall119> sivang: I assume it has apt/dpkg on the phone image
  <HumanBeing> mhall119 oh, ok I always wondered why they haven't got a donate-button on their webpage, which would be necessary if they really have the aim to produce the phone. strange...
  <sivang> mhall119: okay, thanks.
  <Mercury> mhall119: I'd be incrediable disappointed if they _didn't_ keep the full packaging system.
  <mhall119> HumanBeing: they did a kickstarter or one of those crowd-sourcing things
  <FabianS> That NexPhone looks an awful lot like bloatware.
  <FabianS> With no real hardware or software visible and really ugly renders.
  <HumanBeing> mhall119 I know ;) but they haven't got a single link to this on their site
  <mhall119> HumanBeing: I don't think they reached their goal
  <HumanBeing> FabianS You're right, but I was interested in this, because they promised that the phone would run Ubuntu
  <HumanBeing> thx for your information :)
  <FabianS> Er. I shouldn't write two things at once.
  <FabianS> *vaporware
  <FabianS> not bloatware
   * sivang wonders if sladen still with Canonical
  <mhall119> if anybody has questions that don't get answered here, please post them to AskUbuntu using the 'mobile' tag: http://askubuntu.com/questions/tagged/mobile
  * popey changed the topic of #ubuntu-phone to: Discussion for all things regarding Ubuntu in smartphone form factor | http://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone | This channel is logged to http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/ | If nobody is here use http://askubuntu.com/questions/tagged/mobile
  <HumanBeing> A question I found on engadget.com: "If i play fruit ninja or similar game, how this menu sistem going to behave (no phaysical buttons if i understand)??"
  <popey> HumanBeing: there's a difference between swiping on the screen and swiping in from the edge. We need to be clever about telling the difference.
  <FabianS> Worked fine on Nokias N9 and N950.
  <HumanBeing> FabianS: How could you approve that? o.O
  <FabianS> Approve what?
  <HumanBeing> that it ran on the N9 and N950
  <FabianS> ER.
  <FabianS> Nokia invented those swipe gestures Ubuntu Phone uses.
  <FabianS> And they worked fine on N9 and N950.
  <FabianS> https://twitter.com/gregkh/status/286592231731785729
  <bobweaver> where is the code ?
  <popey> not available yet
  <FabianS> s/yet//g
  <FabianS> probably
  <popey> now now
  <bobweaver> popey,  what is framework ?
  <HumanBeing> FabianS: I see. I'm still not sure, wheather it'll be practical...
  <bobweaver> I hear that mark was talking about qml
  <popey> bobweaver: see http://developer.ubuntu.com/get-started/gomobile/
  <FabianS> HumanBeing: I love the N9's UI. I'm sure the UI will be the least problem with Buntu Phone.
  <FabianS> Performance looks like more of an issue.
  <bobweaver> I want to add the form-factor to tv and tablet on my desktop
  <bobweaver> OMG it is OML !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  <bobweaver> s|oml|qml
  <bobweaver> Why am I not working on this ?
  <popey> âº
  <bobweaver> popey,  I dont need to learn qml I am a expert in it. But I need to know something that I can import
  <bobweaver> like import unityphone 1.0
  <bobweaver> and it it uses qconf ?
  <bobweaver> if it *
  <bobweaver> so I can export things like this ......... pasteing
  <HumanBeing> I don't understand why they used QT instead of gtk
  <bobweaver> http://paste.ubuntu.com/1490045/
  <bobweaver> because qt is awesome and can use gtk
  <bobweaver> popey,  in that paste I am calling  com.canonical.unity-greeter  so that in any qml file I can do say
  <bobweaver> lightDmConfiguration.background == "/usr/share/backgrounds/wahtever.png"  that will change the glib
  <bobweaver> popey,  so You see before I write any apps for Phone I would like to see backend (QT) stuff to see what options there are to play with
  <bobweaver> like why import qconf and all that jazz if bckend of phone has it already ?
  <popey> bobweaver: i may be the wrong person to ask these types of questions
  <bobweaver> popey,  maybe you can ppoint out the right person ?
  <popey> mhall119 might, but he's just gone off the clock
  <bobweaver> dang ..... :)
   * bobweaver thinks that this is one of the best moves that Canonival has ever made. Qml is the future I have been ranting about that for like 1.5 years 
  <sivang> bobweaver++
  <popey> \o/ we got bobweaver on a happy day :D
  <bobweaver> lol
  <sivang> bobweaver: me for a bit over 2 years
  <sivang> ;)
  <sivang> but I'm biased from the Qt project side :-p
  <bobweaver> sivang,  you are also qml dev ?
  <bobweaver> sivang,  maybe you have seen some of the work that I have done ?
  <sivang> bobweaver: not sure, perhaps
  <sivang> bobweaver: been doing mostly closed stuff unfortunaltey, and private stuff
  <bobweaver> sivang,  I will make a video of what I am working on right now
  <bobweaver> kinda cool
  <sivang> bobweaver: sure thing, should be good to see
  <ubuntubhoy> Be careful - he will ask you to come look at his puppies next.
   * lpotter knows people that have been ranting about qml for 5 years
  <bobweaver> ubuntubhoy, lets see your qml code :)
  <bobweaver> I am going to make it so that the dash is render types are vars for easing.type : Easing.Whatever
  <sivang> lpotter: but you you, with Jolla no? :)
   * sivang grins
  <lpotter> i do have a current contract with jolla.
  <sivang> lpotter: twitter said something, a while ago :)
  <lpotter> but also a maintainer in qt-project
  <bobweaver> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8BCLEAH-oc
  <FabianS> I really really hope that jolla will get their hands on some decent hardware.
  <FabianS> But they probably can't compete with nokia in that regard.
  <FabianS> N9/Lumia800 and 920 are the best made smartphones I have ever seen.
  <bobweaver> jolla is cool is that what the phone is based off of  ?
  <FabianS> ?
  <FabianS> Jolla is the successor of Meego and most of the company are former Nokia guys.
  <lpotter> jolla's sailfish is mer/nemo which is based on meego
  <FabianS> Well, Sailfish is the successor.
  <FabianS> Jolla is the company
  <ubuntubhoy> bobweaver: I would show you, but you could hurt yourself by laughing too much
  <ubuntubhoy> sadly I am no dev
  <ubuntubhoy> just a little old end user
  <bobweaver> that is cool ubuntubhoy  want to see my puppys ?
  <FabianS> lpotter: Are there any informations about who is going to build jolla's hardware?
  <ubuntubhoy> bobweaver: sure, but I better get a shag out of this
  <bobweaver> lol
  <lpotter> FabianS: nothing yet
  <bobweaver> does any one have any clue at all when the phone code will be released ?
  <FabianS> :/
  <FabianS> I would get a N9 if it was <200â¬
  <FabianS> But with such old hardware it isn't worth ~280â¬.
  <ubuntubhoy> bobweaver: everywhere just says 'soon'
  <ubuntubhoy> they were quick with the N7 code though
  <ubuntubhoy> and depending how you look at it, before or after CES is logical
  <ubuntubhoy> before to peek interest
  <ubuntubhoy> after to talk to vendors/OEM's first
  <bobweaver> They should give me access if they want some bad code to be wrote j/k I am a good qml dev
  <user82> but android apps in ubuntu phone are not planned?
  <popey> user82: unlikely
  <ubuntubhoy> the question is how hard to port ?
  <bobweaver> not that hard with things like qt-exporter
  <popey> no, i think the question is "can I run android apps directly on ubuntu phone"
  <ubuntubhoy> BB have made fantastic tools for porting android apps to BB10
  <ubuntubhoy> popey: I mean the follow up after your answer
  <ubuntubhoy> not the original question
  <bobweaver> that is the cool thing about qml it is super super easy to work with and there are fast things like xmllistModel that are faster then webapps I would say
  <bobweaver> There are some bugs that I still can not get around like QWebView crashes because of stupid gtk
  <bobweaver> like in my tv menu that querys my backend tv server
  <bobweaver> http://imagebin.org/241468  << everything works great till flash comes into play. and yes I have pluginsEnabled but crash's saying that gtk 2 and gtk 3 can not be used together
  <bobweaver> webkit is gtk3 and some stuff in unity 2d is still gtk2 like panel. hence crash's
  <bobweaver> but I can watch big buck bunny and other things that are webm :/
  <bobweaver> If you or anyone would like to play with or use stuff that I have made there is a ppa for 12.04 But one should only try virtual I would say
  <bobweaver> https://launchpad.net/~u2t/+archive/bleedingedge
  <sivang> bobweaver: XmlListModel a true workhorse in 5 I htink it supports JSON
  <bobweaver> sivang,  that is awesome . Got to love Models
  <bobweaver> sivang,  that is my new years resolution is to port unity 2d to qt5
  <bobweaver> have to re-write all the backend stuff though as no qx11info in qt5
  <sivang> I see.
  <bobweaver> yeah there is all the Window and WindowInfo plugin stuff that is heavy on the qx11info stuff
  <k1l_> since the hardware requirements for the high end ubuntu phone mention a quadcore phone. the dev phone for the entry phne is the galaxy nexus, is the nexus 4 the high end phone (besides its not matching the sdcart/emmc space)
  <bobweaver> I am just happy that canonical is doing something with qt-quick I was real real real sad when things went all 3d
  <ubuntubhoy> k1l_: The N4 is a high end phone, the GNex, not so much.
  <jrtappers> What makes a phone not a tablet, cause they need different UI's but there is grey area
  <k1l_> ubuntubhoy: i know, i got one here :) i just wanted to know if the n4 is a devphone for the high-class version. since its powerfull and delivers all drivers etc.
  <ubuntubhoy> They have only said they will be releasing GNex images soon iirc
  <ubuntubhoy> gues that's what they are dev'ing on
  <k1l_> or if its a motorola one, which got that webtop stuff included, which was used for the ubuntu4android on the atrix
  <ubuntubhoy> jrtappers: hard one, the N7 (defo a tablet) has a phone UI
  <jrtappers> What if the user decides? Thats what windows 8 should have done
  <jrtappers> Let  the user decide, give options, don't tke them
  <ubuntubhoy> well for what its worth I run a custom ROM on my N7 so that I can have tablet UI
  <ubuntubhoy> but I think the N10 also uses the phone UI
  <ubuntubhoy> think the tablet UI has been done away with
  <ubuntubhoy> so, UI does not define the device
  <bobweaver> jrtappers,  I would say that it is all about interfaces and buttons
  <reindeernix> I hope that the phone version won't use Compiz >_>
  <bobweaver> +1million
  <popey> It uses.. Beryl!
  <popey> ;)
  <sivang> night all, this announcement was a day maker
  <bobweaver> Easing.whatever is awesome
  <reindeernix> LOL
  <bobweaver> popey,  dont scare people like that
  <sivang> bobweaver: hat's how you take almost close to stock QML lines and make a new app for yourslef: https://github.com/sivang/myrss
  <sivang> anyway, bad time in UTC+2 world
  <sivang> night!
  <jrtappers> bobweaver, I think thats a good answer
  <bobweaver> jrtappers,  think about people do use mouses with tablets and also need differebt drag points for MouseArea
  <bobweaver> OnClicked :if (unity2dConfigueration.formFactor  === tv) do this else if (unity2dConfiueration.formFactor === tablet) do this
  <jrtappers> Mice should not be over integrated for risk of becoming necessary
  <bobweaver> jrtappers,  MouseArea{} elenent is no just for Mouses
  <jrtappers> No i meant in software design
  <bobweaver> Oh +1
  <jrtappers> If mice become necessary then tablets become a lot less small
  <bobweaver> jrtappers,  there is a good example of why one would want to have different things in AbstractButton.qml  in Unity 2d
  <ubuntubhoy> A mouse should only be an option for a tablet
  <bobweaver> esp drag axis and what not for like the dash and the launcher
  <bobweaver> ubuntubhoy,  correct but if a person plugs one in it def should work
  <ubuntubhoy> yes
  <ubuntubhoy> defo
  <jrtappers> Unity would be god on tablets, but terminal may be slow
  <bobweaver> that is the thing alot of the best Qml devs are poor and can not afford things that are needed for testing
  <jrtappers> *good
  <jrtappers> What about some kind of Aspect Ratio Simulator?
  <ubuntubhoy> jrtappers: Unity menu is decent, but window management is shit
  <bobweaver> ubuntubhoy,  blame bamf
  <ubuntubhoy> The N7 build should have maximus by default
  <ubuntubhoy> like the old netbook remix used to
  <ubuntubhoy> plus linux treats touch like a mouse
  <ubuntubhoy> too precise
  <jrtappers> Multitouch could lead to opptunities
  <jrtappers> Like workplace switcher with pinches
  <ubuntubhoy> yeah
  <ubuntubhoy> still very early days
  <bobweaver> libutouch is awesome but always needs more work I would say
  <bobweaver> for tablet and what not I just have different launcher's loading
  <bobweaver> like for tablet it is like mac ipad because I am a horrible designer lol
  <bobweaver> http://paste.ubuntu.com/1490169/  << easy stuff to do if you know the vars/functions/whatever  that Unity has
  <bobweaver> Of course one can add tests to glib shemea files and then set options
  <bobweaver> rectangle {id: button ;width: parent.width / 4 ; height: parent.width / 4}MouseArea{anchors{fill: button}onClicked: launcher2dConfigueration.launcherStyle === tablet
  <jrtappers> Ubuntu phone should be able to sync over wifi without cloud
  <reindeernix> jrtappers: Isn't that what you call cloud? >_>
  <reindeernix> jrtappers: Or do you mean like sending a settings file over wifi or something?
  <jrtappers> No, as in over wifi, not over internet
  <jrtappers> For people who have VERY slow internet
  <jrtappers> ubuntu phone needs personal hotspot
  <FabianS> Yeah. Tethering is a must.
  #ubuntu-phone 2013-01-03
  <mhall119> another nice video for people who havne't seen it: http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/02/ubuntu-for-smartphones/
  <IdleOne> it does look very impresive
  <IdleOne> impressive*
  <IdleOne> I want one.
  <benkaiser> anyone know if we will be able to flash Ubuntu phone os though clockworkmod recovery just like cyanogenmod? and will there be a place to download builds for individual phones (once again like cyanogenmod)?
  <benkaiser> anyone know if we will be able to flash Ubuntu phone os though clockworkmod recovery just like cyanogenmod? and will there be a place to download builds for individual phones (once again like cyanogenmod)?
  <Tak> are there any docs yet on developing native apps for ubuntu phone?
  <popey> hi Tak
  <popey> http://developer.ubuntu.com/get-started/gomobile/ is the entry point
  <Tak> yeah, but all I see is qml
  <popey> yeah, we're working on beefing up the docs, anything in particular you're looking for?
  <Tak> more of a c-style bootstrap guide
  <Tak> or rather, I hope you're not going to make the same mistake that ios and android both made initially by trying to prevent app developers from writing real native apps?
  <popey> (and WebOS) âº
  <popey> Tak: I'd poke mhall119 when he wakes shortly.
  <Tak> cool, no urgency
  <Tak> I just want to get hacking :-)
  <popey> âº
  <popey> I'd certainly love to see everyones favorite 3D game engine ported over ;)
  <Tak> pff, didn't you see ski safari in the keynote? ;-P
  <popey> heh
  <benkaiser_> popey, do you know if their will be more than just the galaxy nexus images released? like say would the note / note 2, s3 and gnex4 be getting it?
  <popey> I'd wait and see, I don't expect there to be a load of images. we have enough to do to get one image done
   * Tak look sadly at nexus4
  <Tak> otoh, how difficult will it be to create community images?
  <popey> we've moved from one dev/reference phone to another at least once or twice
  <popey> yeah, I wonder if once one image is out, whether people will do the same as happened with xda developers and start hacking other images
  <AlanBell> so a nexus 4 is a different thing to the nexus?
  <popey> yes
  <popey> galaxy nexus != nexus 4
  <AlanBell> and a nexus 3 is just the BBC being confused?
  <popey> one is a samsung product, one is LG
  <popey> yes
  <benkaiser_> I don't care if its just one other phone.... I just want it to be a very high spec'd phone (such as the note 2, s3, nexus4) so that I could buy one of them and install it on it...  because the galaxy nexus is only dual core, and I would really like a quad core phone running the ubuntu phone os
  <AlanBell> google are making a lot of confusion branding different manufacturer products as the same product name
  <jrtappers> Nexus = pure android
  <jrtappers> the first phone of every android version
  <AlanBell> yeah, I understand they are the good ones
  <benkaiser_> yeh, no crappy carrier or OEM roms (like touchwiz *shudders*)
  <k1l> popey: can you name the dev-phones involved before?
  <k1l> and i would bet on xda guys making some more images available. they ported ubuntu to several other smartphones and  tablets so far
  <benkaiser_> k1l: was the Transformer 1 or Note 1 among these?
  <k1l> benkaiser_: that werent official ports and the hardest part is to get the drivers. i dont know which devices all got working native ubuntu (desktop mode) ports. but i know about the hp touchpad, since i had ubuntu running there :)
  <benkaiser_> hmmmm.... ubuntu on my tf101 would be amazing.... would make it have a use again.... thanks k1l
  <k1l> benkaiser_: take a look into the device section on xda. maybe someone gives it a try. but be aware that on most devices the biggest problem are the drivers
  <benkaiser_> k1l: found one http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1852702
  <LudwigVonMises> I am excited.
  <LudwigVonMises> First thing we need is a good flashlight app!
  <LudwigVonMises> anyways, is ubuntu phone running on a java stack, or is it more native?
  <popey> native
  <jrtappers> We need a good dialer
  <LudwigVonMises> Yes! hell yes to native!
  <LudwigVonMises> I hate java with every bone in my body
  <k1l> will they use the regular software center?
  <benkaiser_> k1l: I think that was in one of the discussions I read, they said they havn't got up to that yet, but it should just be one place for everything... so they will just change the software centre (from my understanding)
  <LudwigVonMises> I wonder if google docs will work nicely with ubuntu phone... and ubuntu one...
  <LudwigVonMises> open office*
  <LudwigVonMises> thats what I meant
  <Tak> I guess ubuntu one is a must-work
  <LudwigVonMises> yah
  <benkaiser_> LudwikVonMises: I wonder the same thing.... but Ubuntu doesn't have a native Google Drive client (you have to use Insync)... so I wouldn't keep my hopes up...
  <LudwigVonMises> that is for sure
  <LudwigVonMises> benkaiser_: That was a typo
  <LudwigVonMises> benkaiser_: I recall open office saying that they were working on online docs
  <LudwigVonMises> libreoffice*
  <Walther> mind you, open != libr- yeah, that
  <LudwigVonMises> if I could get that synced in ubuntu one
  <LudwigVonMises> then that would be neat
  <Walther> I would still prefer the thin-client idea of a phone-computer
  <Walther> no need to sync, all important data on same device
  <Walther> more security
  <LudwigVonMises> Walther: right, so everything is on your phone
  <Walther> of course, it would still be a nice bit better if it were possible to connect it to extra hardware while still booting/using the same os :P
  <LudwigVonMises> and you bring it to a computer, and it syncs?
  <Walther> LudwigVonMises: No, the computer *is* the phone
  <LudwigVonMises> lol!
  <Walther> just dock it to a monitor,kb,mouse
  <Walther> that's the idea Ubuntu Phone has on its high-end model
  <LudwigVonMises> oh yah, that too
  <LudwigVonMises> oh my, so much to do
  <k1l> ubuntu offers alot of services that google has too. so ubuntu music and ubuntu1 fit good into ubuntu-phone, imho, but google offers alot of features and ubuntu has to try hard for not everyone demanding the google services
  <Walther> there are other competitors as well
  <LudwigVonMises> no
  <LudwigVonMises> apple died with jobs
  <LudwigVonMises> they are like sony now
  <Walther> in my opinion, the most important thing for Ubuntu phone's success is not the availability of Google services or Ubuntu services, but the *diversity* of available services, and compatibility with as many of 'em as possible
  <LudwigVonMises> and microsoft does not have the youth and developer support or fandom
  <Walther> It's not only Google and Apple. There's Netflix, Amazon, Spotify ...
  <Walther> etc
  <LudwigVonMises> Walther: the linux approach to flexibility?
  <Walther> That.
  <LudwigVonMises> Frankly I liked the fact that ubuntu didnt have many games
  <Walther> "do what you want 'cause a linuxist is free, and ubuntu is a linux", lol
  <LudwigVonMises> i really hate being distracted, and I am allot more productive on linux as a result
  <Walther> LudwigVonMises: http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.fi/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at-everything.html
  <benkaiser_> k1l: The one thing keeping me tied to Google Drive is what I primarily use it for, Google Docs... which has amazing features through the collaboration side of it...
  <LudwigVonMises> benkaiser_: Im using google spreadsheets as a database :P
  <benkaiser_> Walther: I have to agree.. on android having those core accounts that make all my apps login automatically (all the google ones at least) is perfect. And ubuntu 12.10 is right on the way there with the online accounts settings
  <LudwigVonMises> if ubuntu could get a cloud database, that would be a killer app
  <Walther> benkaiser_: yeah, and especially in the tech-savvy userbase, there are people like me who have not went to only one company's bandwagon
  <benkaiser_> LudwigVonMises: Why? you can't integrate it with a webpage (can you?)
  <Walther> as in, use only services and products of one company
  <Walther> (google docs, drive, mail, etc)
  <Walther> I use ubuntu one for cloud, multiple mails, google calendar, spotify for music, etc
  <benkaiser_> LOL, I think I was in Google's bandwagon (I want to work there one day), but this Ubuntu Phone looks AMAZING!
  <Walther> Anyway, I would be very eager to start developing apps for the Ubuntu phone, and even more so to help make the ubuntu phone OS support more devices, namely, Nokia N9
  <LudwigVonMises> benkaiser_: What do you mean, webpage? a database?
  <benkaiser_> Normally whenever I make a database its either to be used for a website, or to do complex queries on the data... I guess your use must be much different
  <Walther> Databases are simple. Uses of 'em usually aren't.
  <Walther> you can easily sudo apt-get install mysql or anythin other, nothing special about "cloud databases" and whatnot
  <benkaiser_> Walther: I am keen too... Love to steal some of those 1,000,000-10,000,000 download android apps that other developers havn't touched yet....
  <Walther> benkaiser_: doesn't sound too original <_<
   * Walther would prefer making something actually useful and new
  <LudwigVonMises> benkaiser_: I have a irc bot I am developing. Its plugins directory is synced on google drive. The bot keeps a quote database on a google spreadsheet.
  <benkaiser_> Walther: does it have to be? the point is building the eco system to have the basics of other ones....
  <LudwigVonMises> it is thus easily viewable by anyone who wants to go through the database, which will eventually become enormous
  <Walther> benkaiser_: that too, but if I'm not mistaken, it might be possible to run android apps on ubuntu as well
  <benkaiser_> LudwikVonMises: Sounds pretty good :)
  <LudwigVonMises> and of course it works on my channel and the community I will be devoloping
  <Walther> I mean, the Android VM (dalvik) should be port-able
  <benkaiser_> Walther, it would be even slower than html5 apps then wouldn't it?
  <LudwigVonMises> benkaiser_: Thanks. I just learned to program two days ago, and it seems a whole new world has opened up :P.  reminds me of that xkcd comic
  <LudwigVonMises> a weekend screwing around in perl will give you a career, where as hours studying english won't
  <benkaiser_> LudwigVonMises: Which language? and which comic? (I wrote a python script to download all the xkcd comics to date into a folder)
  <benkaiser_> Oh yes, that one is gold :)
  <LudwigVonMises> Because I am a vagabond, I'd like to be able to develope in public libraries, where I can add to my quote db
  <Walther> benkaiser_: possible
  <LudwigVonMises> LudwigVonMises: Python, supybot. I forget which comic.
  <LudwigVonMises> err, benkaiser_
  <LudwigVonMises> o_O
  <benkaiser_> found it http://xkcd.com/519/
  <Walther> well, there's no point in making IRC bots when there's already Bucket, billygoat and flyingferret at #xkcd, but that's offtopic
  <Walther> Anyway, any official news on the availability of the images?
  <LudwigVonMises> My goal is to move away from Google, though they are not horrid, I just dislike their search, especially recently. Im a pretty conservative guy, and I didnt appreciate the other day when I did a google search, and it displayed a ad banner stating "You deserve an orgy today!" with some cartoon lady on the front. My search wasnt even remotely related to that.
  <LudwigVonMises> I'd love an integrated suite on the other hand made up of ubuntu, ubuntu one, online editting software, duckduckgo, and an opensource type of social network
  <benkaiser_> LudwigVonMises: What is your search history like o.0 ? I do like 40+ searches every day and I love Google search, what do you use as an alternative?
  <LudwigVonMises> benkaiser_: at that time, I was searching around for homeless blogs. Duckduckgo when I can, though its not perfect
  <Walther> eh, offtopic to -offtopic tyvm
  <LudwigVonMises> but you notice everyday that it gets better,
  <LudwigVonMises> like, allot better.
  <Walther> a lot*
  <LudwigVonMises> Thank you. Bad habit.
  <nrosvall> Hi
  <nrosvall> it might be too early to ask, but will ubuntu-sdk support other languages than c++/qt/qml?
  <nrosvall> I'm fine with c++ though so not a big deal for me personally
  <nrosvall> it's also nice that we will finally have a phone OS where c++ is first class citizen
  <niqt_> hi
  <niqt_> will usable in future the phone sdk on other linux distro?
  <sledges> any news on licencing/openness ?
  <sledges> hello :))
  <niqt_> sledges, all silent
  <LudwigVonMises> nrosvall: maybe python :)
  <LudwigVonMises> I dunno, just stating what I would want
  <nrosvall> I would love to have python too :)
  <LudwigVonMises> java, not so much.
  <nrosvall> Vala would be nice
  <benkaiser_> Agreed on python...
  <nrosvall> but I think it's just about qt now, so python might be. not sure if there is a proper support for qt5
  <nrosvall> pyside or pyqt does not have much work done for it yet
  <LudwigVonMises> nrosvall: is qt nice to develope in?
  <nrosvall> it is for c++ at least
  <LudwigVonMises> is it a higher or lower level language than python?
  <nrosvall> c++?
  <nrosvall> lower
  <LudwigVonMises> qt
  <jo-erlend> much lower and a completely different syntax.
  <nrosvall> actually very low level
  <LudwigVonMises> qt is lower level?
  <nrosvall> qt is a framework
  <nrosvall> available for python and c++
  <nrosvall> and java(?)
  <LudwigVonMises> okay, I wasnt sure
  <LudwigVonMises> thats what I thought.
  <jo-erlend> will I _have to_ use qt and qml, or is that if I _choose_ to use the new API?
  <nrosvall> jo-erlend, not sure
  <niqt_> LudwigVonMises you can write your Qt code  also only qml and javascript
  <benkaiser_> so a qml file... defining the interface... is the logic for that written in C++ atm?
  <nrosvall> I think you will be able to use just qt
  <nrosvall> but not sure
  <niqt_> logic also in javascript
  <nrosvall> you can do the logic in c++ if you want
  <nrosvall> thats for sure
  <benkaiser_> Javascript sounds easier (I have a LOT more experience in JS than C++)
  <jo-erlend> I really hope they'll enable support for other tools. I much prefer Vala, which pretty much implies GTK+.
  <sledges> why don't you just go and try qt for yourselves? http://developer.ubuntu.com/get-started/gomobile/
  <nrosvall> anyway I need to start installing Ubuntu on this machine now. I'm starting to develop my first commercial application for Linux
  <jo-erlend> nice :)
  <nrosvall> I did spend 10 years writing software for windows and now I had enough. Windows 8 is just so bad. and their internal process with all the developer account shit is just horrible
  <nrosvall> their customer support sucks
  <nrosvall> and to be honest windows UI is ugly and horrible to use(in my opinion)
  <xnox> it's all qt5
  <nrosvall> I have done some linux development for couple of years, but nothing which is publicly available
  <nrosvall> anyway, no more Windows dev for me.
  <sledges> yes, qt5's very slick
  <benkaiser_> judging by the mobile tutorial, the qml looks very similar to Javascripts functions and JSON data
  <sledges> qml supports javascript (to its extent)
  <sledges> and style sheets are written in (surprise surprise) css!
  <benkaiser_> so does that mean a lot of javascript code (not editing the DOM and whatnot) will port to qml quite easily? is the css only for the HTML5 apps? or even the native ones?
  <sledges> css is to define a QML UI style
  <vibhav> Sorry to disturb you guys, but will ubuntu-phone be open source?
   * vibhav is late to the party
  <sledges> i changed one of its property on my Nokia N9 MeeGo Qt phone, and homescreen started to rotate to landscape - hacky simples
  <sledges> vibhav, no news yet (was my first question upon entering this chan :))
  <sledges> yes, javascript (the logic code) should be ported with ease, benkaiser_
  <vibhav> Hopefully, it will be
  <benkaiser_> okay, so do they have special properties custom to QML? and cheers sledges
  <sledges> yes, the properties are for QML, but they tried not to deviate from HTML namings too much
  <sledges> I'd look forward contributing to a facebook or maps app of it went opensource, but then ubuntu will make profit from loads of product placement (sadly dislike 12.12 where searching for terminal amongs apps brings up suggestions to buy xbox console :( )
  <benkaiser_> sledges: is the id in the QML for the stylesheet?
  <sledges> can't tell, i'm excited yet to learn the whole stuff
  <sledges> but could guess id serves the same things as for getElementById
  <benkaiser_> Same :D and yep
  <sledges> Stskeeps, gossiping from #ubuntu-phone: 12:49 < sledges> any news on licencing/openness ?  12:50 < niqt_> sledges, all silent
  <sledges> everyone's keen on freedom :)
  <user82> ring ding ding bananphone...uhm ubuntuphone i meant
  <k1l> user82: :)
  <user82> soon k1l, soon! hopefully
  <user82> samsung galaxy nexus images are still tbd right?
  <popey> nothing available as yet.
  <user82> ok..
  <user82> thought about buying one anyway..but i guess i can as well wait then
  <k1l> im really thinking to buy my GF a gnex :) and maybe sometimes i need to test something on it :)
  <k1l> afaik the ubuntu-for-android based on a technic that motorola developed and used for their webtop stuff. does that ubuntu-for android and that new ubuntu-for-ubuntu work on other mobile devices?
  <Pip> So where to buy a U phone?
  <icesword> u phone?
  <Pip> Ubuntu phone
  <icesword> are you sure it's on sale?
  <Pip> No
  <icesword> then you can try it maybe on your own phone at your own risk
  <mhall119> Tak: popey: My understand is that native apps will be allowed, and are in fact recommended
  <Tak> "native" not meaning "qml" , correct?
  <mhall119> QML is the toolkit of choice because it's simple, runs well on mobile, and we've put a lot of work into making it work on devices of different sizes and resolutions without the developer having to change their layout code
  <mhall119> Tak: QML is not native?
  <Tak> no?
  <mhall119> I consider it native
  <mhall119> at any rate, C/C++ apps will be allowed, is my understanding
  <user82> does anyone have a original photo from a google nexus 4 camera with 8mpx?
  <Tak> yes, why?
  <mhall119> why will they be allowed?
  <h00k> Pip: sorry ;) here it is.
  <Tak> sorry, that was in response to user82's question
  <mhall119> oh, ok
  <user82> Tak, a non personal one you can send me? for having a look at how good it is 1:1 size
  <Pip> QML is from Nokia, right?
  <yfi> Pip: no
  <Tak> mhall119: do you have any info about setting up a dev environment for c apps?
  <xnox> Pip: well, now digia
  <mhall119> Tak: no, I think that's up to you what you use
  <yfi> Pip: it's part of Qt, which is governed by the Qt Project. digia (and formerly nokia) have special rights when it comes to commercial licensing
  <vibhav> mhall119: Are there any minimum specifications for Ubuntu Phone
  <mhall119> vibhav: hardware specs?
  <vibhav> mhall119: yep
  <yfi> and they do the lion share of the work, to be fair
  <mhall119> vibhav: http://www.ubuntu.com/devices/phone/operators-and-oems
  <Pip> I wish Ubuntu phone is better than Android phone
  <mhall119> I don't think those are "minimum" so much as they are general targets
  <h00k> Tak: basically if you have build-essentials installed, you can use any environment/IDE you'd like to write C/C++ stuffs
  <Tak> I guess an "official" toolchain/scratchbox/something setup would be much appreciated
  <Tak> h00k: ok, how about building and deploying?
  <icesword> what's good about ubuntu phone
  <vibhav> mhall119: Any plans for a UDS session for Ubuntu Phone? I will be very eager to participate in one
  <mhall119> Tak: the "official" setup is QtCreator and Qt/QML
  <h00k> Tak: http://developer.ubuntu.com/get-started/gomobile/, but I haven't really checked at what's said here yet
  <mhall119> vibhav: I'm sure there will be, we haven't started with blueprints for the next UDS yet
  <Tak> ok, how does one write an opengl app with qml? ;-)
  <user82> Tak, do you have a suitable photo or none right now?
  <mhall119> Tak: packaging and deploying will work like any other app
  <mhall119> Tak: http://developer.ubuntu.com/publish/
  <Tak> sure
  <mhall119> Tak: I'm sure you can mix Qt/QML and OpenGL
  <mhall119> maybe not Qt/QML with C, but with C++ you can
  <Tak> the piece I'm missing is the build toolchain for whatever arm variant(s) ubuntu phone will support
  <vibhav> mhall119: Can I write apps operating from a terminal?
  <gac> user82: https://secure.flickr.com/photos/ubergizmo/sets/72157631911479790/
  <user82> thank you gac :)
  <yfi> Tak: you can cross-compile gcc for arm rather easily, the more tricky part is to get a full sysroot up and running. a while ago codesourcery had a reasonable offering, I don't know what the situation is nowadays
  <Tak> yes, that's essentially my question
  <Tak> apparently I'm very poor at asking it
  <Tak> maemo used to have instructions for setting up a scratchbox with all the appropriate packages
  <mhall119> Tak: yes, gcc is what will be used, as far as I know
  <mhall119> vibhav: as long as somebody writes a nice terminal app for you to run it in
  <Tak> gac: more interesting than my cat ;-)
  <vibhav> mhall119: Any idea if the app store will use dpkg internally?
  <mhall119> vibhav: it does now
   * vibhav cheers
  <benkaiser> will there be a terminal app ;) or will we have to go get it from the software centre?
  <mhall119> benkaiser: it's too early to say
  <benkaiser> fair enough :)
  <robin-gloster1> mhall119: will the whole stack be open source? or will there be closed source parts?
  <Tak> I guess at least some drivers will be closed
  <mhall119> possibly some drivers, yeah, but otherwise it should all be open
  <robin-gloster1> mhall119: thanks
  <mhall119> our parts anyway
  <mhall119> 3rd party developers and OEMs will be free to make closed-source apps
  <robin-gloster1> mhall119: sure, that's something different
  <AlanBell> is ubuntu phone using a linaro kernel?
  <mhall119> AlanBell: I don't think Linaro targets the SoC in the Galaxy Nexus
  <mhall119> but then again, I'm not sure what SoC it has
  <AlanBell> so does this have Linaro involvement?
  <mhall119> AlanBell: I don't know, you should ask akgraner
  <rsalveti> we're mostly just using linaro compiler at this point
  <rsalveti> the kernel used for galaxy nexus is the same one as provided by aosp, so not much from linaro
  <AlanBell> ok
  <mhall119> thanks rsalveti
  <Lofde_> I am ready to alpha test ubuntu on my galaxy nexus ... as a developer :D if anyone has an image !
  <sivang> evening all
  <mhall119> Lofde_: images aren't available yet, sorry
  <Lofde_> is there a mailing list to sign up on when they are
  <sivang> hey mhall119
  <sivang> mhall119: got my email?
  <mhall119> sivang: I did, yes, thank you
  <sivang> sledges: you're here as well! were you part of the work before release?
  <sivang> oops
  <sivang> that was for:
  <sivang> sladen: ^^
  <sivang> mhall119: is there a list of apps somewhere (wiki) that ubuntu phone needs?
  <mhall119> sivang: we're getting it together now, should be announced soon along with a program for getting community involvement writing them
  <sivang> mhall119: through skunkworks?
  <mhall119> sivang: no, it will all be public
  <sivang> mhall119: ah, so no skunkworks anymore?
  <mhall119> it will be skunkworks-like in that it'll pair community members with canonical staff
  <sivang> mhall119: where's the sketch up for the list happening?
  <mhall119> sivang: skunkworks is on-going, and will cover more than just the phone
  <mhall119> sivang: I don't think there's a public list anywhere yet
  <sivang> mhall119: ah, perhaps good to have it online somewhere so c.members can add their ones? (this can help create the list in an instance due to crowd sourcing)
  <sivang> mhall119: can always merge with the internal list later
  <sivang> mhall119: (Exclude duplicates, remove irrelevant stuff, etc)
  <mhall119> sivang: the list we're working on will be what we need in a default install, community folks aren't limited to that list
  <sivang> mhall119: okay cool.
  <sivang> mhall119: so that'll be the 'main' UI part of the phone image ;)
  <mhall119> it'll be default apps like you'd get on a new Android phone
  <mhall119> mail, calendar, that kind of thing
  <sivang> mhall119: okay, when do we start? ;)
  <mhall119> sivang: as soon as we have it all together
  <sivang> mhall119: k, cool
  <sivang> mhall119: prolly good to send a call out for community help on that, somewhere on site or so.
  <sivang> anyway, laters
  <user82> mhall119, what do you personally think. how long till a nexus installer/rom?
  <AlanBell> I did a bit of FAQ and link collecting please edit, it is a wiki https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPhone
  <user82> AlanBell, one more video: http://www.viddler.com/v/ac8413f3?secret=106830881
  <AlanBell> user82: go add it :)
  <user82> what the hell? did he really launch android apps in ubuntu phone??
  <user82> is this correct
  <user82> AlanBell, says to me "protected site". can you add it please?
  <popey> user82: it's a wiki, you need to sign in
  <popey> user82: he didn't launch any android apps there
  <user82> popey, were those the ubuntu phone apps?
  <AlanBell> user82: added it
  <user82> thansk AlanBell
  <user82> popey, singin did not work for me..hung up
  <popey> user82: they are native ubuntu apps
  <mhall119> user82: I don't have any idea on the timeframe, sorry
  <user82> ok mhall119 ..i thought so.
  <user82> so you thing he just said android but meant ubuntu apps popey ?
  <popey> user82: at what point did he say android?
  <popey> i just watched it and must have missed that
  <popey> anyway, they're not android apps, they're ubuntu native ones âº
  <user82> sorry popey i forgot the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyeFcldavTk#t=1m15s
  <user82> my bad
  <popey> Thats not Ubuntu for Phones, that's Ubuntu for Android.
  <popey> Not the same product âº
  <user82> oh ok
  <AlanBell> oh, I may have cocked up and up a U4A video on the page :)
   * AlanBell removes
  <user82> yep AlanBell..probably wrong product
  <sledges> fellows, how is hardware adaptation handled for ubuntu phone os? gpu/vpu drivers, 2D/3D hw accel, gstreamer hw accel plugins, ril for wifi, closed source binary blobs only for bionic ?
  <sledges> will each device that ubuntu os is ported to have its own PPA repo?
  <sledges> what are supported architectures (arm versions, mips), and hardfp/softfp aspects
  <popey> sledges: the core system is based around an android BSP
  <popey> so we can use android specific hardware drivers
  <popey> not running full android, but the drivers.
  <popey> i dont think we've look at the details of phone specific PPAs or package delivery in detail yet
  <thebishop> does ubuntu phone run the same kernel as the desktop?  what modifications have been made to the base system to address battery life, ui responsiveness, multiuser, etc?
  <popey> thebishop: we've learned from the Ubuntu on Nexus 7, and many of those issues are being fixed and rolling through the desktop and will also end up in the phone.
  <thebishop> popey, interesting.  i was talking to some devs in #ubuntu-nexus7, and they said the UI isn't going to be in the n7 image by default.  is it possible to build from source and install right now?
  <popey> not yet
  <jo-erlend> popey, do you know if I'll _have to_ use c++ with qt in order to write native apps, or is that just a convenience and I'll still be able to write in gtk/vala?
  <mhall119> jo-erlend: that is going ot be our recommended way
  <mhall119> but you should be able to write it with any language and toolkit that will run on the hardware and software
  <jo-erlend> Right. Ok. Very good.
  <mhall119> jo-erlend: if you use a toolkit other than the QML provided, you're going to have to do a lot more work to make it work on multiple devices and formfactors
  <mhall119> which is why we're recommending QML and the Ubuntu QML components
  <jo-erlend> hmm. I don't like the sound of that at all.
  <mhall119> jo-erlend: it's just the nature of the toolkits, most aren't made to support multiple resolutions and form factors with a single codebase
  <mhall119> we've put a lot of work into making that work with our SDK
  <mhall119> so you can write your UI once and it'll work all over the place
  <mhall119> but you're not going to get that with Gtk (at least not yet, I hope they add it too)
  <robin-gloster1> mhall119: jono kind of just said that it's not possible at all to use sth other than HTML5, QML, OpenGL in his Q&A session
  <mhall119> so, again, you can use what you want, but we're going to recommend the easiest one
  <robin-gloster1> mhall119: maybe correct that statement in #ubuntu-on-air?
  <jo-erlend> how does this affect Python? If I remember correctly, it's only free for non-commercial use?
  <jo-erlend> I mean the qt-bindings.
  <jrtappers> will ubuntu phone have terminal?
  <mhall119> jo-erlend: I think it depends on the binding
  <mhall119> jrtappers: if somebody writes one, yes
  <mhall119> robin-gloster1: let me confrm before I make any corrections
  <robin-gloster1> mhall119: yup
  <yfi> will qml be the only choice to draw on screen with qt, or is there a way to use qwidgets?
  <thebishop> popey, is there any rough timeframe for repo access? not a date, but like weeks, months?
  <jrtappers> Who uses ubutu with a 3G modem?
  <thebishop> jrtappers, i have in the past
  <thebishop> jrtappers, always pleasantly surprised by the plug-and-playiness
  <thebishop> even with 4g wimax cards
  <jrtappers> http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/30462/                    Do you agree?
  <jrtappers> Plugged it in today .1 MB, think it was on Edge, couldn't check
  <jrtappers> 100kB/s
  <popey> thebishop: no
  <thebishop> :)
  <mhall119> yfi: robin-gloster1: for now only QML and HTML5 are being developed and supported, anything else is "to be determined"
  <robin-gloster1> mhall119: ok thanks :)
  <mhall119> np
  <yfi> also thanks.
  <jo-erlend> but if I have a Python/GTK application, then it will run without any work, except it might not look as nice as other apps do?
  <rsalveti> sladen: at the end the drivers will depend on the vendor, we can provide a way to re-use the drivers from android
  <rsalveti> but if the vendor wants to use following the standard at ubuntu/generic linux, they can
  <mhall119> jo-erlend: at this point there are no guarntees it'll work on the phone
  <bobweaver> so I am running into troubles with the way that the dpu is getting rendered in you all's elements
  <bobweaver> why use dpu when you can just use something like parent.width / 12
  <bobweaver> when you re-scale the interface nothing will fit because of it
  <bobweaver> my work around was to set  font.Pixlsize: to something like parent.width / whatever
  <bobweaver> or the font does not resize its self thus causing maxed apps to have small titles and what not
  <jrtappers> Will ubuntu phone be USB OTG compatable?
  <bobweaver> I wonder where I should file bugs for stuff like that. and If i fix ?
  <bobweaver> jrtappers,  what is OTG ?
  <bobweaver> out the gate ?
  <jrtappers> On The Go
  <jrtappers> The port can act as host
  <jrtappers> you can connect mice and flash drives etc to it
  <bobweaver> jrtappers,  I would say (GUESSING HERE)  that as long as the kerenl can see the usb's then yueah it should work
  <jrtappers> That could be useful
  <bobweaver> same with hdmi ect
  <jrtappers> Especially if it supports usb ethernet adapters, so routers and switches can be set up on an ubuntu phone
  <bobweaver> jrtappers,  Does Ubuntu desktop support that ?
  <bobweaver> << is poor and can not afford hardware
  <jrtappers> I think ubuntu supports usb network adapters
  <bobweaver> So no one knows where to file bugs and patch's for the qml elements  ?
  <jrtappers> ubuntu phone should have the turn over to mute feature from HTC
  <bobweaver> there is also things like AbstractButton that can not use things like    if (mouse Qt.LeftButton)  activateUriWithLens(lens, categoryId, uri, mimetype)   else if  (mouse.QtRightButton) activatePreviews()
  <bobweaver> I added  acceptedButtons: Qt.LeftButton | Qt.RightButton to AbstractButton and also some state's and transitions also OnEntered and On Exit need to be added.
  <bobweaver> well I think that is not that they "need to be added" but IMHO would make more robust
  <jalcine> Is there any way I can run the Ubuntu Phone in a VM of sorts?
  <bobweaver> jalcine,  there is no iso or even code base out yet BUT there is qml elements and also a notepad examp,e that you can play with
  <bobweaver> public that is ^^
  <bobweaver> but you can play with the qml elements that canonical made and also make apps
  <mhall119> jrtappers: re: OTA updates, it's too early to say for sure, but I don't see why it wouldn't
  <bobweaver> unless something has changed in the last 12 hours
  <mhall119> oh, wait, OTG?  that I have no idea
  <bobweaver> mhall119,  that is what I also said
  <bobweaver> on the go *
  <mhall119> jalcine: there is no way to run the phone software itself yet
  <jalcine> Interesting. And I'm guessing with U1 support, you could kind of leverage it as a cloud kind of thing, to make apps work everywhere.
  <bobweaver> I thought that it was Out the Gate .... silly bob
  <jrtappers> mhall119, that was USB OTG, not OTA updates
  <mhall119> jalcine: yes, your apps can sync data using U1 without having to provide your own syncing service
  <jrtappers> sorry for confusion
  <mhall119> jrtappers: yeah, I caught that only afterwards
  <popey> USB requires both hardware & software support, too early to say yet.
  <slangasek> though for comparison, the Ubuntu Nexus7 images support OTG just fine
  <bobweaver> popey,  mhall119  you will be at CES ?  I am wondering If I should spend all my money to go to vegas
  <popey> no
  <mhall119> no
  <mhall119> jono will though
  <mhall119> but it's expensive, I don't know why you'd want to pay your own way
  <bobweaver> I dont
  <mhall119> bobweaver: I'd just wait for the videos to hit youtube
  <mhall119> that's what I'll be doing
  <mhall119> that and parying because the boss is out of town :)
  <bobweaver> but if it get's me somewhere. This is super important to me. because of the tv thing and what not
  <mhall119> bobweaver: it's all business stuff
  <mhall119> well, business stuff and crazy business parties after
  <mhall119> from what I hear, anyway
  <bobweaver> If I am going to replace all my elements thta I have made with Ubuntu elements then that is cool. But I mostly want to learn about glib and how or if itt listens to dbus
  <mhall119> there be dragons
  <bobweaver> Oo
  <bobweaver> mhall119,  you have to understand that I work on the tv code like 9 hours out of the day everyday . so that is why it is so important to me
  <bobweaver> so taking everything that I have already and porting it into the interface that is already there would be a good thing well... I think that it would be a good thing that is
  <bobweaver> << can not afford a high end phone
  <mhall119> heh, neither can I, I'm still sporting my Wife's old DroidX
  <bobweaver> :)
  <mhall119> with it's stupid encrypted bootloader
  <jrtappers> why? Why does a phone need an encrypted bootloader?
  <bobweaver> the last phone that I had I install Ubuntu on it (chroot)
  <mhall119> bobweaver: are you currently using the Qt Dbus library?
  <jrtappers> Its just to  limit the users!
  <mhall119> jrtappers: pretty much
  <bobweaver> mhall119, parts of it yes
  <mhall119> ok
  <bobweaver> deelistmodel <<
  <bobweaver> that is something else and also bamf
  <mhall119> ah yes, bamf
  <bobweaver> lol
  <mhall119> BAMF!
  <mhall119> it's like the old Batman
  <bobweaver> 2 months ago I did not know what it was :( now I know too well what it is
   * mhall119 ages himself
  <bobweaver> mhall119,  here I will paste all libs
  <bobweaver> mhall119,  http://paste.ubuntu.com/1493186/
  <k1l_> jrtappers: encypted bootloader to save the user, you got that wrong :)
  <jrtappers> Save them from what?
  <k1l_> from ruining their devices, they said. i mean secureboot got some points in securing the OS. but its used to limit the users
  <bobweaver> mhall119,  I forgot qt5_automoc  and GTK_LDFLAGS  DCONFQT_LIBRARIES
  <mhall119> bobweaver: what is that from?
  <bobweaver> Cmake files of my port of Unity 2d to qt5
  <mhall119> and it needs gtk and gdk stuff?
  <bobweaver> yeah for the pannel and all sorts of stuff :(
  <mhall119> oh right, I forgot the panel was still Gtk
  <bobweaver> mainly app/*
  <bobweaver> for panel ^^
  #ubuntu-phone 2013-01-04
  <jalcine> bobweaver: how big of an effort would be it to recreate the panel in Qt?
  <bobweaver> qml multimedia sensors and what not are not as advanced (networking) . But one could try to make a C++  plugin thingy. what I did with the Tv was not a great thing but it works
  <bobweaver> but that is with unity2d libs
  <bobweaver> like the plugin thing that is there at the moment in unity 2d is great but to replace with all qml front end would be fun but well.... that would be fun
  <bobweaver> effort lots
  <bobweaver> that is just one man's thoughts. There are many things that could get in the way
  <bobweaver> s|multimedia|mobile
  <jalcine> Hm.
  <jalcine> I really want to help with Ubuntu Phone.
  <jalcine> Still working on a SpeechDispatcher-esque system for speech recognition.
  <jalcine> Should help out with Unity when I'm done.
  <jalcine> https://github.com/jalcine/speechcontrol if you're curious
  <sledges> Friday moarning!
  <sledges> thanks for the answer popey
   * Tak doing Real Work on friday, feel dirty
  <sledges> well "look busy.." :)
  <jjardon__>  Hi, does anyone know if ubuntu for phones will be libre software?
  <popey> jjardon__: the core OS is fully open source, just like the desktop
  <popey> there may be some enablement work on hardware which requires other licenses as set by the handset/SoC manufacturers though
  <jjardon__> popey: Thanks for the info. Is the UI libre software also?
  <popey> jjardon__: all canonical software is GPL
  <popey> so the UI will also be open source
  <mitya57> The source code for the UI toolkit can already be downloaded from ppa:ui-toolkit/ppa, though the packaging refers to a closed LP branch
  <mitya57> (License is LGPL-3.0)
  <jjardon__> popey, mitya57 great, thanks!
  <schasch> Hi, does anyone know which phone to buy to flash first ubuntu-mobile-firmware-images?  the GT-I9250?
  <popey> schasch: you've probably seen the demos being given on the galaxy nexus, but we've not made any kind of final decisions, so I wouldn't buy a phone specifically for Ubuntu Phone testing right now. The first preview images may be some way off.
  <schasch> popey: :-( ...bad news... OK, I hoped those images for Galaxy Nexus could be released those days.
  <popey> patience âº
  <schasch> patience is hard...I am still working on n900-maemo and waiting for a real linux phone
  <jo-erlend> schasch, hey... That _is_ a real linux phone. My usb port died on that one and they replaced it with an n8. :(
  <schasch> jo-erlend: till now I am happy with n900, but the hardware/software is too old and to slow...
  <sledges> get an N9
  <sledges> ah sure, not certain how that will blend in with ubuntu-os being android based
  <sledges> a "true linux phone" then ? ;)
  <popey> sledges: its not android based
  <sledges> using android bsp that is
  <sledges> for drivers' part
  <popey> sure, just that boit
  <popey> *bit
  <popey> it's not "android" as google would describe it
  <popey> </pedant>
  <sledges> android kernel?
  <Tak> but android is a custom os on top of a linux kernel...
  <popey> exactly, so it's ubuntu on top of a linux kernel using android drivers for some of the hardware
  <sledges> but android drivers are compiled against bionic, ubuntu meanwhile will be (uc/g)libc (?)
   * popey shrugs
  <sledges> *userspace drivers that is
  <sledges> like GLES wrappers etc
  <Elleo> I don't know what the ubuntu-phone team are doing, but there is libhybris, which allows for the use of bionic based drivers in a glibc based system
  <sledges> too true, I wonder when ubuntu will disclosed what's under the bonnet
  <sledges> *disclose
  <Walther> Any news on the availability of images?
  <sledges> and the source code? :)
  <Walther> I'd love to get hacking on it and help porting it to N9
  <sledges> well, we got told "patience" ..
  <popey> we'll announce when images are (going to be) available
  <popey> you'll know âº
  <benfrancis> Is there any more information available yet about building HTML5 apps for Ubuntu Phone? Will there be any device APIs available to web apps? Sailfish looks like it will support HTML5 via Cordova Qt. Is this the approach Ubuntu phone will take, or will they run directly in a webkit runtime like Tizen?
  <Walther> Also, will the images be specific to devices, or will they follow the "generic kernel" way?
  <Walther> As in; will we have to make actual *ports* for different devices, or can the community help building support for other devices to a "generic" image
  <Walther> (because you know, ports suck and maintaining of separate ports sucks)
  <popey> Walther: we don't have any more info on that right now
  <benfrancis> I suspect there may be an issue with the distribution of device drivers. Most Android devices have proprietary drivers shipped with them (with no open source alternatives) which is what makes distributing images for those devices tricky from a legal point of view.
  <popey> benfrancis: no info yet on extending HTML5 or APIs
  <benfrancis> popey: OK, thanks. Where should I be listening for any news?
  <popey> benfrancis: "the internet" âº
  <popey> also http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPhone
   * benfrancis turns on omnipotent mode and watches the whole Internet :P
   * ubuntubhoy thinks popey must be getting sick of answering UOS release questions
  <sledges> maybe writing a bot would be handy? :)
  <Walther> ehm, might be useful to stick that wiki link to the topic
  * popey changed the topic of #ubuntu-phone to: Discussion for all things regarding Ubuntu in smartphone form factor | http://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone | This channel is logged to http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/ | If nobody is here use http://askubuntu.com/questions/tagged/mobile | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPhone
  <popey> ubuntubhoy: not at all
  <schasch> watching mark's video lets me and community think there will be an image for the galaxy nexus 'next week' because it looks this "ready"-state
  <schasch> maybe there should be a date for "source/image -release" be written  on http://www.ubuntu.com/devices/phone or http://www.ubuntu.com/devices/phone to stop this BIG release question...
  <schasch> something like : "no dev/test images" or sourcecode before sep 2013 for any phone"
  <schasch> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPhone or http://www.ubuntu.com/devices/phone....
  * popey changed the topic of #ubuntu-phone to: Discussion for all things regarding Ubuntu for Phones | This channel is logged to http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/ | If nobody is here use http://askubuntu.com/questions/tagged/mobile | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPhone | No images available yet.
  <popey> schasch: updated it
  <schasch> popey : thanks, but maybe something like :    !!![ "no dev/test images" or sourcecode before 'SEP 2013' for any phone ]!!!
  <schasch> would be better...
  <Tak> where did you hear this 2013/9 date?
  <dpm> benfrancis, you can also ask questions on www.askubuntu.com/questions/ask?tags=mobile
  <schasch> Tak : I didn't heard it, but I read in the Internet "images coming soon" and that seems not to be true
  <schasch> someone from the ubuntu-team should tell us a  NOT BEFORE ...[YEAR.MONTH],  , at least for the sourcecode...
  <Tak> NOT BEFORE 2013/1
  <popey> the guys are working hard on the software right now, nothing will happen before CES next week. Once that's over we'll try and get an update.
  <popey> heh
  <schasch> popey : thanks...
  <user82> schasch, setp 13 or just a date you made up?
  <robin-gloster> user82: that date is made up
  <schasch> correct, fantasy
  <user82> puh..that would be after my birthday...without ubuntu images ready or my birthday i have to wait for christmas to buy a new phone :D
   * Tak caught in a landslide
  <schasch> :-)
  <user82> hoping for google nexus images anyway..not buying a phone less price effective for ubuntu os to be honest
  <schasch> if ubuntu would tell me 'FEB 2013' image/source for galaxy nexus/or other  ,  I would buy one today
  <robin-gloster> user82: dev phone was a galaxy nexus, so probable that an image for that will be the first to be released
  <user82> robin-gloster, it was a samsung nexus..not to be confused with the lg device google nexus 4
  <user82> i got that wrong too first
  <robin-gloster> user82: "galaxy nexus"!
  <user82> ah ok yeah..that is what i meant.
  <user82> google phone has much better performance/price
  <schasch> robin-gloste : popey wrote they do not know yet wich phone
  <schasch> i would pay a bit more as long as I have ubuntu
  <user82> hopefully it gets ported to many phones...
  <robin-gloster> user82: galaxy nexus was a google phone, too, but the one released before nexus4
  <user82> "ported"0adopted
  <user82> did not know that yet robin-gloster ...
  <robin-gloster> user82: all nexus "nexus one, nexus S, galaxy nexus and nexus4" are "google phones"
  <user82> ah ok...well nexus 4 is the one i would prefer
  <robin-gloster> schasch: i only know that GNexus was the dev phone, so I said it's probable that an early image will be for it ;)
  <schasch> robin-gloster : thats what I thought/hoped too... , but see popey 's  aswer to me...
  <schasch> maybe they show it next week at CES on a NEXUS4 ???
  <schasch> :-)
  <DrHalan> hey. i am wondering if anybody is working on porting gwibber to ubuntu for phones. would be cool to have microblogging integrated into the OS.
  <DrHalan> and the same for telepathy (Maemo was pretty cool in that matter)
  <ct529> I have motorola defy, will UP work on it?
  <ubuntubhoy> ct529: only GNex image being released at first
  <ubuntubhoy> but when source is out I am sure someone will port it
  <ct529> ubuntubhoy: :-(
  <ct529> ubuntubhoy: any timeline?
  <ubuntubhoy> ct529: nope
  <ubuntubhoy> but was stated on channel nothing till after CES at earliest
  <Tak> and also on the site
  <ubuntubhoy> and the MOTD
  <ct529> ubuntubhoy: MOTD
  <ct529> ubuntubhoy: ?
  <nrosvall_> Hi
  <nrosvall_> Any news if ubuntu phone os is going to support Python with PyQt or Pyside?
  <dmdrummond> nrosvall_: I haven't heard anything official, but I'm sure it will run Python.
  <robin-gloster> nrosvall_: mhall119 said that currently only HTML5/QML/OpenGL is supported. anything else has not been decided so far
  <dmdrummond> robin-gloster: What about native code?
  <mhall119> dmdrummond: QML is native
  <robin-gloster> dmdrummond: native == QML
  <dmdrummond> mhall119: robin-gloster: last time I looked it was a markup language with javascripty bits.
  <mhall119> it's as native as python in that regard
  <dmdrummond> mhall119: I would never call oython native tbh
  <mhall119> it gets to be a difference that makes no difference
  <dmdrummond> mhall119: Wow, and that gets to be a sentence that makes no sense
  <mhall119> sorry, maybe a cultural saying
  <dmdrummond> mhall119: Will we be able to back up the QML in native C++, as say is done in the Blackberry 10 platform?
  <mhall119> dmdrummond: I'm not 100% sure on that
  <mhall119> dmdrummond: it's still pretty early, and the goal is to make the QML and HTML5 SDK top-notch
  <dmdrummond> mhall119: For the dialler app, there must already be some platform abstractions going on.  The docs I have seen so far do not mention much other than UI.  Will there be a consistent interface for bluetooth/location/<other common phone feature> ?
  <mhall119> dmdrummond: bluetooth probably, since we have that on desktops/laptops already
  <mhall119> I don't know if there's a common way of getting gps/location information though
  <rsalveti> nrosvall_: I don't see why not supporting python with pyqt/pyside
  <rsalveti> if it's working properly with qt5, then it should be good
  <Silur> hi all
  <Silur> can anyone help me with some developing q-s
  <Silur> the site and the video only metions QML and HTML5
  <Silur> will i be able to run a hellp world std C++?
  <Silur> or will it contain a python shell?
  <Silur> the site says
  <Silur> "Ubuntu phone's going to inherit Desktop ubuntu's security, workflow, Design and management"
  <Silur> what about development?
  <Silur> ubuntu is not unix without development opportunities :D
  <Ryan45> What is Ubuntu's relationship with Nvidia. Being involved with the tablet porting community it always seemed to fall back on NVidia quickly abandoning support for thier platforms as soon as they brought something new out.
  <Ryan45> If I read the logs correct an image is coming out for Galaxy Nexus which is TI OMAP.
  <Ryan45> I would image this is going to limit UP's availability to OMAP devices, which is not the end of the world. In fact you might be on to something if you can create an Ubuntu Phone Market where vendors can sell unlocked phones.
  <Ryan45> Obviously, the rest of the world wouldn't care
  <Ryan45> but in the US it would be a huge hit for the nerds.
  #ubuntu-phone 2013-01-05
  <Transhumanist> hi =)
  <shanbuntu_> thanks :)
  <shanbuntu_> less action than #ubuntu
  <Transhumanist> yeah haha
  <Transhumanist> it's probably just lots of people idling and waiting for more info
  <Transhumanist> Canonical are keeping the details pretty close to their chest
  <shanbuntu_> i only have a Windows 7 machine at present, and all my mobiles are Android.  Any ideas on how I can start developing Ubuntu apps?  Haven't gone through the doco yet
  <shanbuntu_> oh and have VMWare image of Ubuntu, that might help
  <Transhumanist> well
  <Transhumanist> I haven't looked into it yet myself
  <Transhumanist> but as I understand it, any native Ubuntu app should run on the phone version. That's kind of one of the selling points.
  <Transhumanist> But I heard mention of QML
  <Transhumanist> so look up QML
  <Ryan45> Yeah, isnt the point of a universal platform that the apps are universal
  <Transhumanist> further, it would be a good idea to install Ubuntu inside a virtual machine like virtual box (or probably VMWare), yeah
  <Transhumanist> Ryan45: Ja.
  <Transhumanist> but universal apps aren't necessarily fast apps
  <Ryan45> yeah, i agree
  <Ryan45> I played around in the tablet porting world and I can tell you its going to be ugly
  <Ryan45> unless you know exactly what works and what doesnt
  <Transhumanist> Still, Ubuntu is just so much less locked-down than Android, this is going to be great
  <Ryan45> it's not the OS that's the problem
  <Ryan45> its the hardware in the mobile world
  <Transhumanist> in terms of power or compatibility?
  <Ryan45> unless, this is going to be exclusive for a certain number of handsets
  <Ryan45> interms of SOC makers don't like to release code
  <Transhumanist> Yeah, proprietary drivers
  <Ryan45> because by the time anyone is porting they already moved onto thier next best thing
  <Ryan45> we are on quadcore mobile now?
  <Ryan45> what was single core? 11 months ago?
  <Transhumanist> Canonical is working that out. That's not something app evelopers need worry about.
  <Transhumanist> my Note 2 is 1.6 GHz with 4 cores and 2 gig of RAM
  <Transhumanist> the phones of 2013 and 2014 will be way more powerful
  <Transhumanist> All Canonical needs to do is secure an OEM or ODM that is dedicated to doing an Ubuntu phone. Then, it doesn't matter about the other phones and ODMs. As long as Canonical pulls off one good phone.
  <Ryan45> The linux culture is to use the devices of last year
  <Ryan45> not the device of next year
  <jo-erlend> the best starting point for developing apps for Ubuntu is here: http://developer.ubuntu.com/
  <Ryan45> people love linux because you can throw it on an old machine and breath new life into it
  <Transhumanist> That's not really true of smartphones, though.
  <Ryan45> in 2014 how many old smart phones are you going to have laying around?
  <Ryan45> I will probably have 3
  <Transhumanist> I think there is a HUGE crowd of people that would buy a phone that, when docked, becomes a normal desktop OS
  <jo-erlend> yes, but has anyone mentioned that being included in Ubuntu Phone OS?
  <Ryan45> Yes, I am not denying that, but there is a bigger market of people sitting on 1 or 2 year old devices
  <Transhumanist> jo-erlend: yes
  <Ryan45> jo, yes, that was in the video
  <Transhumanist> that's the selling point, really
  <jo-erlend> when?
  <Transhumanist> Sigh. Don't make me go find it.
  <Ryan45> its in the faq too
  <jo-erlend> That has been mentioned with respects to Ubuntu for Android, but I haven't heard anything about it for Ubuntu Phone.
  <Transhumanist> http://www.ubuntu.com/devices/phone/operators-and-oems
  <Transhumanist> see the table
  <Transhumanist> high-end smartphones will have desktop convergence
  <Ryan45> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPhone#Ubuntu_Phone_FAQ
  <Ryan45> Will desktop applications such asÂ LibreOfficeÂ run on it?When the phone is docked to a screen you should be able to use the full desktop applications. When they are on the small screen they would need a QML display which might be part of the same application.
  <jo-erlend> nice.
  <Transhumanist> Definitely. In this context, Ubuntu for Android is more like Wubi: it's there for people who don't want to fully commit, but it's not the main goal
  <Transhumanist> Assuming they actually follow through on Ubuntu for Android
  <Transhumanist> I suspect this might have surplanted it
  <Ryan45> GNexus is OMAP, if they did this project for Mediatek devices like http://www.bluproducts.com/pro-detail/vivo43
  <Ryan45> then the chinese companies could come in and drop a bunch of devices
  <Transhumanist> Yeah I don't expect the big players to pull this off. It'll be a currently non-name Chinese company probably
  <Transhumanist> That's kind of the beauty of it: if Samsung, et al don't consider this worthy of their time, there are other players who are desperately trying to break into smartphones who will
  <Ryan45> With substandard displays and no patents
  <Ryan45> lol
  <jo-erlend> huh? Why wouldn't Samsung consider this worthy? They spend resources on Tizen.
  <Transhumanist> Samsung wants control
  <Transhumanist> They might not consider Ubuntu to give them that
  <jo-erlend> why do you say that?
  <Transhumanist> After all, they're trying to replace Android with Tizen
  <Transhumanist> for precisely that reason
  <jo-erlend> I seriously doubt that.
  <Ryan45> One undertstated potential is rapid localization.
  <Ryan45> If they go after the chinese companies making phones for africa
  <jo-erlend> but Samsung has no incentive not to sell phones with a variety of operating systems.
  <Ryan45> ubuntu phone could be localized with ease for any new market
  <Ryan45> Brazil, Mexico, India, Africa
  <jo-erlend> I'd very much like Huawei to get into it. They have some nice stuff up their sleeves and they really have something to prove.
  <Transhumanist> I suppose Ubuntu will be even more open source than Android, so regardless of Canonical's wishes, Samsung could fork it and have full control if they wished.
  <Transhumanist> I imagine ZTE will be interested as well
  <Transhumanist> And LG and HTC probably want to one-up Samsung
  <jo-erlend> "even more"... Well, Android is primarily Apache licensed. Whether that's more or less open than GPL, is a matter of perspective.
  <Ryan45> Nokia is going to be looking for a dancing partner as soon as Microsoft divorces them.
  <Transhumanist> There are proprietary parts of Android.
  <Ryan45> which wont be long.
  <Transhumanist> Microsoft will probably watch Nokia crash and burn and then purchase them. After all, the guy running Nokia now is a Microsoft plant.
  <Ryan45> nokia is probably nice tax write off :)
  <jo-erlend> I had a Nokia N900 which I really loved until the USB port was broken. I had guarantee, so I sent it in. They replaced it with an N8. I love the hardware, but the OS doesn't cut it. I wonder if Nokia would be "allowed" to offer both WP and UP. They would certainly be an attractive hardware manufacturer.
  <Transhumanist> My N900 is sitting next to my mouse at the moment.
  <Transhumanist> N900 was a wonderful phone. But Nokia never pushed it. They never marketted it.
  <jo-erlend> yes, for some strange reason.
  <Transhumanist> Nokia is a much more socially responsible company than Samsung or Apple, so it is sad to see them die.
  <jo-erlend> but they've made nice phones all along. Their problem has been the OS.
  <Ryan45> I still don't like the idea of trying to get a peice of the existing pie.
  <jo-erlend> why?
  <Ryan45> Need to sell to people who dont like pie :)
  <Transhumanist> I don't really think Canonical are trying to get a piece of the pie. I think they're trying to bake a better pie.
  <Ryan45> reinvent the wheel
  <Ryan45> lol
  <jo-erlend> in any case, computing is not a mature market by any means.
  <Ryan45> Firefox Phone, Ubuntu Phone, up soon, Angry Birds Phone
  <Transhumanist> Canonical are trying to elimninate device categories. Conflate laptops, tablets, desktops into a single device. Your smartphone is a phone normally, but dock it and it's a desktop. Or put it inside a laptopdock case and it's a laptop. Or a tablet dock case and it is a tablet.
  <Ryan45> you just do the sling back motion to launch apps
  <Transhumanist> So you grab your phone out of the dock in the monring, head to work, chuck it in the dock.
  <Ryan45> yeah, my dad asked me that yesterday, if any of these phones could just have a monitor hooked up
  <Transhumanist> Or head to the university computer lab and place it in one of the 40 docks provided, with monitors and mice and keyboards attached.
  <Transhumanist> My Note 2 already has a dock with HDMI, and UDB. But without a desktop OS I see no point in using a mouse and keyboard on it on a big screen
  <Transhumanist> *USB
  <jo-erlend> also, I think the biggest app craze will subside. People probably won't continue to buy fart-apps forever. I'd predict that people will want fewer, but higher quality apps. The number of available apps is not really all that important, I think.
  <Ryan45> I really wan't to make a scifi movie with a giant space ship and they come under attack and dude pulls out his smartphone and controls the whole thing.
  <Ryan45> no point in having some big battle center with all these buttons and screens
  <jo-erlend> that highly depends on what you're doing.
  <Ryan45> good ubuntu phone commercial :)
  <Ryan45> flips back and plays a word on scrabble
  <jo-erlend> I have a few pretty wild ideas for controlling the desktop, but I think maybe they're slightly too radical yet. :)
  <Transhumanist> So have either of you installed the QML toolkit yet?
  <jo-erlend> no, I'm a Vala/GTK kinda guy, so I haven't spent too much time using Qt in a long time.
  <Transhumanist> QML is QT, then?
  <jo-erlend> Qt Markup Language, I think?
  <Transhumanist> isn't it a bit odd to choose QT whne Unity is based off Gnome which is GTK?
  <Transhumanist> maybe QML was already mature
  <jo-erlend> markup/meta, wikipedia says.
  <jo-erlend> Unity is not based on Gnome really. It's based on Compiz.
  <jo-erlend> much of the Ubuntu desktop is still based on Gnome though. But the shell itself is not.
  <Transhumanist> I'm developing an Android app for spaced repetition of frequency dictionaries for various languages. So I may work on it concurrently in QML
  <Transhumanist> ok
  <jo-erlend> they're using some toolkit of their own; NUX. I don't know much about it.
  <Transhumanist> who's using NUX? Canonical for Compiz?
  <jo-erlend> Canonical.
  <jo-erlend> for Unity, that is.
  <Transhumanist> ok
  <jo-erlend> they've used Qt for other stuff. Unity 2D is written in Qt, for instance. I think U1 client is too.
  <jo-erlend> but to me, the most important work they've done, is to unify stuff. It's not too long ago that using Qt apps in Ubuntu felt really strange. And I really love the HTML stuff and the rest of the infrastructure.
  <Transhumanist> I like Unity. I don't understand all the fuss about it. It's not like they're preventing people from using Gnome or KDE.
  <jalcine> I'm going to feel a bit iffy about HTML applications.
  <Transhumanist> in what sense? security?
  <Transhumanist> You don't have to code in HTML5
  <jo-erlend> I think they're highly useful in some cases. It's nowhere near anything like a competitor to native apps though. That'll take another decade, I'll wager.
  <Transhumanist> Yeah.
  <jo-erlend> but I _really_ wish they could make Vala/GTK first class. I understand the reasoning though. I don't really like C++ all that much and C is probably not all that comfortable in combination with Qt, though I might be wrong about that.
  <Transhumanist> Yeah, I'm not a fan of C++
  <Transhumanist> I'm OK with C and Java. Just not C++. Odd.
  <jo-erlend> then you too would probably love Vala :)
  <Transhumanist> =(
  <Transhumanist> Qt is C++?
  <jo-erlend> jup.
  <Transhumanist> Aw.
  <jo-erlend> but I don't know much about Qt, so don't trust me on any of that stuff.
  <jo-erlend> but these are exciting times. If anything would make me want to jump into QML and change some habits, it's this.
  <Transhumanist> yeah. I think all the tech punditry proclaiming this concept dead on arrive because the smartphone market is too crowded are funny
  <Transhumanist> most of them probably don't even know what Linux is
  <Transhumanist> or about the huge culture associated with it and with FOSS and with Ubuntu
  <Ryan45> Trans
  <Ryan45> That is the counter point as well
  <Transhumanist> Not really
  <Ryan45> a bunch of people are going to have legacy devices
  <Transhumanist> the pundits are shortsighted for not understanding Linux
  <Ryan45> because the linux culture is legacy devices
  <Transhumanist> but ordinary people don't care about Linux
  <Transhumanist> they care about being able to have a powerful smartphone with a desktop OS (when docked)
  <Ryan45> Your point was Ubuntu has a big following including by extension
  <Ryan45> which i agree with
  <Transhumanist> The Linux culture isn't legacy devices. That's a linux subculture.
  <Ryan45> You are going to argue that OEM linux is successful?
  <Transhumanist> Are you talking about Android?
  <Ryan45> no
  <Transhumanist> Which other OEM Linux, then? MeeGo? Tizen?
  <Ryan45> I might have stated it wrong, i mean linux installed by manufacturers
  <Ryan45> yes, I had it write Origional Equipment Manufacturer installed Linux
  <Ryan45> write LOL
  <Ryan45> right
  <Transhumanist> Ubuntu for phones will be successfull from two different angles: drawing over a large number of existing Linux users, and drawing over a large number of non-Linux users who love the concept of a smartphone that turns into a desktop when docked. For most people Ubuntu 12.10 is not that different to Windows, especially on a phone.
  <jo-erlend> <Ryan45> You are going to argue that OEM linux is successful? <-- what does that have to do with Linux being a "legacy culture"?
  <Ryan45> my argument is that Linux is thought of as a solution to extending the life out of devices
  <Transhumanist> Only by SOME people.
  <Ryan45> or custom built
  <Transhumanist> I see Linux as the cutting-edge compared to Windows. I have modern machines. I don't install Linux to give life to old devices (much).
  <chriadam|away> some people think that anchovies are good pizzas too, but that doesn't mean that anchovy pizzas are all there is.
  <jo-erlend> it's a long time since I had any issues with off-the-shelf hardware.
  <chriadam|away> good *on pizzas.
  <Ryan45> You installed Linux on a windows device more then lieky
  <Ryan45> even if it was the most recent
  <jo-erlend> so?
  <Transhumanist> Not my desktop. And the computer I am about to buy is from System76
  <Transhumanist> it comes with Ubuntu, not Windows
  <Ryan45> If your buddy asks if his old laptop will run linux you say, yes and it will run great
  <Transhumanist> How does this relate to phones?
  <jo-erlend> I don't consider anything a "windows device", btw. I think that kind of thinking is nasty. I think about hardware and software.
  <Ryan45> ok, it was a summary
  <Ryan45> so my point is, the average linux fan is going to take his phone and say, wow ubuntu looks great
  <chriadam|away> I think he's just saying that a lot of current linux users who have current Android devices, might seriously think about flashing UbuntuPhone onto their current device, instead of throwing it away, the next time they can upgrade due to plan cycle.  Sure.
  <Ryan45> and look for an image to install
  <jo-erlend> it is true that I've had to purchase licenses to Windows that I never intended to use, and that's nasty too, but that neither affects hardware nor my Ubuntu software. I just pretend there's no OS installed.
  <Transhumanist> chriadam|away: sure, and those who can't will happily buy an Ubuntu phone
  <Ryan45> Chriad: and the problem I see is that Ubuntu Phone is going to be available for a limited number of devices
  <jo-erlend> Ryan45, right. And there will be images to install, though the target hardware probably doesn't exist yet.
  <Transhumanist> Ryan45's logic is fallacious because he's implying that a) Ubuntu phones won't attract non-Linux users, and b) Linux users won't buy Ubuntu phones upon discovering that in many cases it can't be installed on their old device
  <Ryan45> Trans, i am not arguing either of those points
  <jo-erlend> Ryan45, if they use Android drivers, then you should be able to run it on most Android devices, no?
  <Transhumanist> Well then I am at a loss :p
  <chriadam|away> let's all take a moment to thank Stskeeps for that ;-D
  <Ryan45> (8:35:11 PM) Transhumanist: yeah. I think all the tech punditry proclaiming this concept dead on arrive because the smartphone market is too crowded are funny
  <Ryan45> (8:35:18 PM) Transhumanist: most of them probably don't even know what Linux is
  <Ryan45> (8:35:31 PM) Transhumanist: or about the huge culture associated with it and with FOSS and with Ubuntu
  <Ryan45> Your third statement argues they are wrong because of ubuntu's culture
  <Ryan45> and i am saying they are right on that point because of ubuntu's culture
  <Transhumanist> Yeah, why?
  <Ryan45> Because I dont want to buy a new phone
  <jo-erlend> Ryan45, then just download it and install it yourself?
  <Transhumanist> There will be a LOT of Ubuntu fans who will buy an Ubuntu phone. I'm not saying all, I'm not even saying 50%.
  <Ryan45> if i have one of the few phones it will run on
  <Transhumanist> But Ubuntu is used by tens of millions of people.
  <jo-erlend> Ryan45, where have you found the list of Android phones that won't be able to run Ubuntu?
  <Transhumanist> Ubuntu ROMs will come out.
  <Ryan45> Jo-er: i am basing my position of the fact they are working with OMAP
  <Ryan45> because nvidia and samsung keep thier stuff closed
  <chriadam|away> jo-erlend: well, it's simply not safe to assume that it'll be able to run on every piece of hardware.  hardware adaptions are a _lot_ of work.
  <jo-erlend> chriadam|away, sure. What I'm saying, is it's way too early to make claims that Ubuntu won't run on existing hardware.
  <Transhumanist> Ryan45: but aren't you implying that if Ubuntu fans discover that, hypothetically, they can't install it on their old phone, then they won't buy an Ubuntu phone?
  <Transhumanist> It just doesn't make sense to me
  <Transhumanist> Some will, some won't
  <Transhumanist> And many won't even care about their old phones
  <jo-erlend> and as I keep telling people; most hardware is still crap. So is software. Computing is not a mature market. There's plenty of time to get in, as long as you do it properly. People will want to replace their phones sooner or later anyway.
  <chriadam|away> yup.  here endeth the argument, I think.
  <Transhumanist> for the record, I am in favour of being able to reduce waste and install it on older phones. But the hardware requirements won't allow that. It needs fast processors, multiple processors, and high RAM
  <Ryan45> no, it just needs open drivers :)
  <Transhumanist> Canonical disagrees with you.
  <Transhumanist> Examine this table: http://www.ubuntu.com/devices/phone/operators-and-oems
  <jo-erlend> sure, I share those views. But the acceptable level of hardware hasn't been reached in my opinion. Not on tablets and not on phones. Certainly on desktops and laptops though, but that's a completely different segment.
  <Transhumanist> for the dockable version, Canonical has certain hardware requirements
  <Ryan45> lol
  <Ryan45> do you know how many 1Ghz Cortex A9's there are
  <Transhumanist> A large number.
  <Ryan45> ARM licenses that stuff out like its going out of style.
  <Ryan45> But not all of them are developer friendlty
  <Ryan45> this isn't the pc world where it's like 4 legit possibilities for cpu archetecture
  <jo-erlend> talking about ARM, I think their big.LITTLE sounds rather perfectly suited for this exact use.
  <Ryan45> man, my spelling is terrible in pidgin with no spellcheck.
  <jo-erlend> mine is terrible with no sleep :>
  <Transhumanist> what part of the world do you guys hail from?
  <Ryan45> Perhaps the 2014 release frame is because they know something about the business I do not :)
  <jo-erlend> Norway.
  <Ryan45> that future ARM forks are all going to be dev friendly
  <Ryan45> Alaska
  <Transhumanist> Ryan45: yeah, they know that more powerful phones will be out by then :p
  <Ryan45> Trans, you keep saying that but you dont talk about whats inside them
  <Ryan45> :)
  <Transhumanist> And they know that's how long it'll take to get this going with an ODM
  <Transhumanist> It'll still be ARM
  <Ryan45> My experience comes from the android tablet porting world
  <Transhumanist> But a bunch of chip manufacturers have been opening up a bit. And Canonical's plan seems to be to work with one to get their drivers working on Ubuntu, not necessarily to open those drivers
  <Transhumanist> I don't pretend that the hardware manufacturers will suddenly open up, although there's a lot of commercial pressure for that to start happening
  <chriadam|away> Mm.  Intel have a pretty big potential in the mobile space, by 2014 I'm expecting really, really low TDP from their mobile chips.
  <jo-erlend> I think the most important thing is to get stuff working on one reference model.
  <Transhumanist> Yes
  <Ryan45> Perhaps there will be a stabalization on that front
  <Ryan45> BTW, to make it clear, I am not against this whole thing, i love it :)
  <jo-erlend> chriadam|away, it'll be interesting to see.
  <Ryan45> But I think it's more in the disruption then i assimilation
  <Transhumanist> Ignoring the ROM market. Ignoring Ubuntu users who want to install it on their old phone. There WILL be a huge number of existing Ubuntu users, and non-Ubuntu first-adopters who will buy the first Ubuntu phone that comes out.
  <Ryan45> I'd love to see a Ubuntu Phone Market where there are 5-10 phones available for me to buy unlocked for $300
  <Transhumanist> Same. But that's further off I suspect
  <Ryan45> Trans: are these going to be at Verizon?
  <Ryan45> or at ATT?
  <Transhumanist> I suppose that depends on Canonical's business skills?
  <Ryan45> or is this going to be a European only concept like Nokia
  <jo-erlend> I'd very, _very_ much like to see Nokia get on board. For a large number of reasons.
  <Transhumanist> As would I. They have a really good environmental track record.
  <Ryan45> The US model has a way of just destroying good ideas.
  <Transhumanist> That's the US.
  <Ryan45> I'm in the US :)
  <Transhumanist> It won't stop you from buying a phone up front, though.
  <Ryan45> Nexus 4 is probably going to be my first
  <Transhumanist> Even if Verizon and ATT don't have a version to sell on plans
  <Transhumanist> first smartphone?
  <Ryan45> I am not the average consumer
  <Ryan45> no, I still use the milestone, here the droid
  <Ryan45> first vzw android phone
  <Transhumanist> But why do you assume the average consumer needs to buy the Ubuntu phone for it to be successful initially?
  <Ryan45> Because cost is associated with scale :)
  <Transhumanist> The best models of Android phones only sell like 20 to 50 million units.
  <Transhumanist> I understand economies of scale.
  <Ryan45> I read a great nokia quote
  <Ryan45> "if we had a phone that sold as few as the iphone it would be considered a complete failure" this is from before Apple had an ecosystem around the phone
  <Transhumanist> But for their first unit, selling a few million copies is fine. Mark might even subsidise this yet further with his millions of dollars.
  <chriadam|away> Ubuntu has no need for profit...  Oh, I'm sure Mark wants to sell tens of millions of handsets, at a nice margin if possible, but I don't think that's the primary aim, to be honest.
  <jo-erlend> I think it's important to keep in mind that Microsoft and Apple were considered successful even in the 80s and 90s, though that was a very small market.
  <Ryan45> The point I was just making is I hate nvidia reference platform built devices :)
  <Transhumanist> haha
  <jo-erlend> percentages doesn't pay the rent. I think Ubuntu can be quite successful even with a fairly low percentage.
  <Ryan45> They don't support even 6 month old devices
  <Transhumanist> BTW, I haven't fiddled with Cyanogen mod or anything
  <Transhumanist> but dual-booting is possible on Android phones, right?
  <Transhumanist> Because I can see a future where people dual-boot Ubuntu and Android :p
  <Ryan45> to ubuntu?
  <Transhumanist> to anything
  <jo-erlend> I can imagine a company saying "yes, you can bring your own device â as long as it's Ubuntu so we're sure everything works properly". :)
  <Transhumanist> e.g. between stock and Cynogen mod
  <Ryan45> It's not dualbooting, it's more like running an emulator
  <Ryan45> Look at the info on Ubuntu for Android
  <Transhumanist> Ubuntu for Android isn't emulation. It's sharing the same kernel. It's not dual-booting.
  <Transhumanist> But in todays market, can you dual-boot multiple ROMs?
  <Transhumanist> if you've unlocked your phone?
  <Ryan45> yeah, I am an idiotsavant with out the savant when it comes to explaining
  <Ryan45> no
  <Transhumanist> haha
  <Transhumanist> odd
  <Ryan45> It's the way android sets up its memory
  <Ryan45> you can certainly keep writing over
  <Ryan45> and using the old data with the new system files
  <Ryan45> but it gets ugly after a few times of doing that because that idea is REALLY stupid
  <Transhumanist> You can't... partition or something?
  <Transhumanist> Or direct the second OS to boot from external SD?
  <Transhumanist> honestly, it seems stupid that people have reinvented the wheel, DIFFERENTLY, for phones.
  <Transhumanist> They're just computers smeg it!
  <jo-erlend> on some phones, you can. Not on all.
  <jo-erlend> the mobile market is really messy in a lot of ways. So was PC in the beginning though.
  <Ryan45> (jo secretly supporting my point)
  <chriadam|away> they're not "just computers".  they have their own set of problems to solve, and outcomes to achieve.  people innovate, and come up with their own solutions and their own implementations.  that's just natural.
  <jo-erlend> yes and that's what happened in the early PC era as well. Then it settled. I hope the same thing will happen in the mobile space. Because it seems obvious that people should be able to switch operating systems after purchasing the hardware.
  <chriadam|away> right, that may eventually happen
  <Ryan45> Little different global chip making capability
  <jo-erlend> I'm hopeful. We're at the very beginning.
  <chriadam|away> but at the pace of technological advancement, I'd be surprised if we still had "handsets" as we know them today, in 20 years time.  wet-wired implants are more likely ;-)
  <Ryan45> ugh
  <Ryan45> people are against cross breeding carrots even though they will probably starve if they dont
  <Transhumanist> <chriadam|away> they're not "just computers".  they have their own set of problems to solve, and outcomes to achieve.  people innovate, and come up with their own solutions and their own implementations.  that's just natural.
  <Transhumanist> this is true more because of where phones have come from than because of what people are trying to achieve with them today
  <jo-erlend> chriadam|away, I don't think people are going to replace form factors. I think we'll add new ones. For instance, no tablet or handheld will ever make me want to replace a good chair, desktop, big screens and keyboard. After all, technology doesn't alter my biology. Well, not yet, anyway :>
  <Transhumanist> People today are trying to use them as computer. It makes sense to ditch the phone paradigm and TREAT them as first-class citizens in the computing world
  <Ryan45> ARM's licensing has done wonder and been the bane of a lot of inovation though :)
  <Ryan45> puts the invoation in the hands of large manufacturers
  <chriadam|away> jo-erlend: yet, in my opinion, was the operative word in that sentence.  I'm probably wrong, but we'll see.  Either way, interesting times ahead ;-)
  <Transhumanist> jo-erlend: what about a phone that docks into a small station connected to a monitor and keyboard and mouse on top of your desk with the comfy chair
  <Ryan45> if everyone had to use one of like 3 sets of chips we would see all kinds of crazy device uses, but there are like 100's of locked up cpu's now
  <Transhumanist> is that not a desktop then?
   * jo-erlend thinks having choice of operating systems will be a big selling point for hardware manufacturers in the future. 
  <Ryan45> i dont want to dock anything :)
  <Ryan45> I want to just come into range
  <Transhumanist> haha
  <Transhumanist> I love that idea!
  <jo-erlend> Transhumanist, right. When hardware is capable of that âÂ which is happening very soon â that'll certainly be interesting and appealing. It doesn't change the form factor though.
  <Transhumanist> Well it does change it! No more towers. No more buying multiple devices.
  <jo-erlend> Ryan45, I do that now. Love BlueProximity :>
  <Transhumanist> It's a huge change :p
  <jo-erlend> and when I leave the house, my webcam automatically turns into a surveillance camera. That's nice too.
  <Ryan45> we are actually going to soon run into a surplus of computing power
  <chriadam|away> if one of the books on the bookcase in your study gets belligerent, you'll _know about it_ ;-D  jokes
  <chriadam|away> Ryan45: pfft.  no such thing.
  <jo-erlend> Ryan45,  heh...  To me, that's happened a long time ago wrt stationary computing.
  <Transhumanist> You know what I love the most about smartphones replacing PC's?
  <Transhumanist> The fact that they consume 1/100th the number of watts
  <Ryan45> i read on the internet that transhumanist REALLY loves the environment :)
  <jo-erlend> chriadam|away, it was a fun weekend project more than a security thing though :)
  <Transhumanist> Well it saves on electricity bills too.
  <chriadam|away> jo-erlend: hehe, yeah, I did the same thing back when I was in uni.
  <Transhumanist> but Ryan: how is reduced electricity consumption of that magnitude not an amazing thing?
  <Ryan45> :) I'm in Alaska, our whole economy is based on wasteful energy use aka oil
  <Transhumanist> And I am from Australia. We're simiklar with coal and gas.
  <Transhumanist> It's not a good thing.
  <Transhumanist> Or something to be proud of haha
  <Ryan45> I havent had a desktop in years
  <Ryan45> I only use laptops
  <jo-erlend> Ryan45, and I'm from Norway :>
  <jo-erlend> we _are_ proud of it, I think :)
  <Ryan45> Laptops use much less power.
  <Transhumanist> I've got this 6-core AMD desktop which I am going to retire for no other reason than it accounts for like half my electricity bill.
  <Transhumanist> Yeah I'm switching to a System76 lappie
  <jo-erlend> Transhumanist, you're going to retire a computer and replace it with a new one ... for the sake of the environment?
  <Ryan45> LOL
  <Transhumanist> Think that through more carefully jo-erlend
  <Transhumanist> I need it for other reasons. I'm going to switch to using it as my main PC too, to reduce electricity consumption.
  <Ryan45> It's like when they tear down old buildings to build new environmentally responisbile ones.
  <Ryan45> And the construction equipment does more carbon production then the building will save in its life time
  <Transhumanist> The savings CAN be worth it, but most people don't to the maths to figure out whether it is
  <chriadam|away> Usually the maths is too difficult.  If everyone wasn't tearing down the old buildings, maybe HastingsDearing would be producing less heavy machinery, and maybe the steel mills would produce less steel, and maybe the mining industry would do less mining, and maybe...
  <jo-erlend> environment is very important. And low power consumption is good, not only because of the consumption, but also because lower consumption means longer life, because of less heat which requires fans and other moveable stuff.
  <chriadam|away> mainly it's good because it means my study doesn't get quite so damn hot during summer.
  <Transhumanist> The laptop I am getting has an average consumption of 30 watts (rough guess). My desktop PC has an average consumption of 300 watts (rough guess). I don't know how much electricity it cost to make each device, or how many pollutants were produced, but but it doesn't seem completely ridicuklously that at some point it will be an environmental gain to have switched to this laptop
  <jo-erlend> chriadam|away, which is a bad thing at winter in Norway. I'd rather warm my study using a computer than an oven.
  <chriadam|away> ... unless that point is longer than the lifetime of your laptop..
  <Transhumanist> indeed
  <Transhumanist> But I'm buying it so I can do development work away from home, especially at uni.
  <chriadam|away> jo-erlend: hehe.  I used to own a dell that would have solved all of your central-heating problems
  <Ryan45> Trans, how much of those chemicals in the computer came from china :)
  <Ryan45> where they dont care about pollution output in mining
  <Ryan45> or in transportation
  <Ryan45> or in production
  <jo-erlend> chriadam|away, I currently own a beast of a machine. I should actually ask the neighbours to chip in, cause I'm probably lowering their electrical bills :>
  <chriadam|away> hehe
  <jo-erlend> whenever I buy something new, I try to buy something that'll last. I didn't really realize that it'd make my box sound like a Harley Davidson.
  <Ryan45> As an Alaskan I almost exclusivly talk online with people from Europe and Australia :) Due to timezones.
  <jo-erlend> but I don't think I'll ever have to upgrade my stationary again and that's a good thing.
  <Transhumanist> You have a point. This is why I really valued Nokia's products - they handled the lifecycle environmental cost of their products really well. But as I said, there are multiple reasons for buying this laptop: specifically the ease of doing development work. If I could buy a good Nokia laptop, I would. But I can't.
  <Transhumanist> But since I am buying the laptop for reason X, then it makes sense to retire my desktop and use this laptop because it consumes perhaps 1/10th the electricity. And back to smartphones absorbing other device categories: it'll be amazing when that happens because of the global drop in energy use from domestic computing
  <jo-erlend> I didn't know that. I like Nokia for other reasons.
  <jo-erlend> Transhumanist, heh, sure. I apologize for making that joke. It wasn't an attack in any way, and I wasn't referring to you when I spoke about my stationary.
  <Transhumanist> As an Aussie I usually miss Europeans because they're mostly asleep or at work
  <Transhumanist> =(
  <Transhumanist> jo-erlend: oh, was responding to Ryan45
  <jo-erlend> hehe ok :)
  <jo-erlend> ah. He doesn't like tab completion much, I see. :>
  <Ryan45> nah, every letter costs electricity
  <Ryan45> plus I dont want to make someones computer beep and wake up thier signifigant other.
  <jo-erlend> Ryan45, I think you have a good point. People talk green, but when it comes down to decision making, I think it's better if green is a bonus. Longevity, aesthetics and simplicity is much more important, I think.
  <Transhumanist> I take issue with that because you make it sound like they're mutually exclusive
  <Transhumanist> ;)
  <chriadam|away> right.  I think the problem is that it's too complex for the average person to figure out, and it's too abstract or formless a threat to figure actively in most peoples' cognitive processes when making decisions.
  <jo-erlend> oh, quite the contrary. It's a matter of how you sell it. People like green and green is important. But I think it's better to say "It's really nice, the battery lasts for a long time â oh, and that also means it's green", than to say "it's green, and it's kinda useful too!" :)
  <jo-erlend> chriadam|away, right.
  <Transhumanist> jo-erlend: I see what you mean
  <Transhumanist> It's a matter of education, too though
  <Ryan45> OneUbuntuPhonePerChild is a way better program bTW :)
  <Transhumanist> lol
  <Transhumanist> that should be a thing.
  <jo-erlend> If you don't have to worry about the battery all the time, then that's good for you. You like that. As a bonus, it's good for the environment as well.
  <Ryan45> hey australian
  <Ryan45> who likes energy conservation
  <Ryan45> Do you like ice skating or hockey?
  <Transhumanist> I don't think my feet are designed for ice skating, but I love it anyway. I prefer skiing.
  <Ryan45> Ok, so have you heard of solar thermal absorption chilling?
  <jo-erlend> hehe
  <jo-erlend> he should, being an Australian.
  <jo-erlend> soaked leather bags filled with water was the primary way to keep the water cool when going walkabout, I seem to remember.
  <Ryan45> http://energy-concepts.com/thermochiller
  <Ryan45> They can drive the chiller needed for a skating rink off solar and I really want to build one in west texas, but australia would work as well.
  <Transhumanist> Oh, like setup a comercial ice rink run by one of these?
  <jo-erlend> are we still somewhat in touch with Ubuntu, or have we drifted completely off topic? :)
  <Transhumanist> Well... you're welcome to discuss something Ubuntu-related :D
  <Transhumanist> be back in a bit. Girlfriend is home.
  <jo-erlend> it's a good idea. I'm sure some people try to pay a little attention to the backlogs in order to catch unanswered questions. Makes it more difficult if we're talking too much about other thigns.
  <jo-erlend> things, even.
  <Ryan45> yeah
  <Ryan45> Unanswered questions, lol
  <Ryan45> like there are answers
  <jo-erlend> I've received good answers to all of my questions.
  <Ryan45> I apologize for bringing some debate to the conversation earlier :)
  <jo-erlend> don't. Enthusiasm is good. I get caught up too. I really do sometimes. :)
  <Transhumanist> Debate is good! I'm going to spend tonight installing their alpha QML development framework
  <jo-erlend> and I think green is an important aspect of UP. Not only because native code probably means less consumption, but also because a lot of people who would otherwise run a desktop 24/7 in addition to their phone, might reduce that to one device.
  <Ryan45> I would love to see them do a mediatek based demo
  <jo-erlend> I get the impression that there's still a lot of things to do before a detailed demo is called for.
  <Transhumanist> What's mediatek?
  <Transhumanist> just a device by MediaTek demoing Ubuntu Phone's features?
  <Ryan45> mediatek is the offbrand arm
  <Ryan45> A9
  <Transhumanist> http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/01/04/is-ubuntu-about-to-create-the-phone-and-pc-of-my-dreams/
  <donttrustem> Hi guys, I would like to test ubuntu phone on my nexus. Is there anywhere to download the code?
  <donttrustem> Anyone here?
  <k1l> no not yet.  its not to be expected until the CES
  <donttrustem> When is the CES
  <donttrustem> Bloody bots
  <k1l> its just starting if im right
  <donttrustem> But it has been demonstrated on the nexus
  <k1l> on a galaxy nexus, yes. but the code is not published right now
  <donttrustem> When will it be published... I would like to test it and develop
  <k1l> donttrustem: there is no exact date mentioned. so its expected after the CES but dont count the hours
  <netchip> are the sources for ubuntu for phones released?
  <donttrustem> Man there must be a version out there for developers ....
  <donttrustem> netchip: I found something on the xda forum
  <k1l> netchip: no, not so far
  <netchip> :|
  <donttrustem> http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1730546
  <netchip> also, why do they use Android kenrel?
  <donttrustem> Not sure if this will work
  <netchip> donttrustem, That isn't Ubuntu Phone they are developing ;)
  <k1l> donttrustem: that is not ubuntuphone
  <donttrustem> Ok
  <k1l> netchip: do they? i think they mentioned that they could use the android kernel because of the drivers
  <donttrustem> I think they need to release something soon otherwise it will lose momentum...  It needs to be out there.
  <k1l> donttrustem: its a dev stage which they want to show at the CES to the hardware manufactures to get them on board
  <k1l> donttrustem: its not ment fo end-users to use on their phone right now. so be patient
  <netchip> Yeah, well, I'm running CM on my SGS3, it's 60% open source, and the team is 3 men, and they open sourced that part, without any documentation, in _one_ year
  <netchip> So for a big company, it should take a week
  <donttrustem> Lol manufactures are users ... End user will determine the success
  <k1l> *sigh*
  <k1l> netchip: cm isnt only run by 3men at all.
  <netchip> k1l, The team who opensourced my phoine is
  <netchip> teamhacksung
  <donttrustem> If the code is not out there for devs to use and spread the word then it will die.  Ubuntu desktop started without manaufactures
  <k1l> donttrustem: that is not how the mobile business runs
  <donttrustem> We are not talking about phones anymore, it is now being pushed as a mini desktop when docked :)
  <donttrustem> Would you say that the nexus is a phone or a mini PC?  The market call them smartphones because they need to separate them as a unique device ...
  <donttrustem> But in reality they are mini computers
  <donttrustem> Anyway enough of the rant ... Will have to wait for the release
  <popey> morning all âº
  <donttrustem> CES is this month ...  In fact on Tuesday
  <k1l> hi popey :)
  <k1l> an ipad user who is ranting about ubuntu not giving the code NAOW!!111 . ok i see
  <Preed> what code?
  <Preed> So the ubuntu phone is a device with ubuntu on it.. and ubuntu for android is the same ubuntu, but running on top/parallell to android on an android device?
  <k1l> the ubuntu-phone code
  <Preed> whats that code for?
  <lcabreza1> what country is this phone available ?
  <k1l> lcabreza1: not available yet
  <Preed> you mean the source code?
  <k1l> Preed: no, ubuntu for android/ubuntu is a desktop-unity
  <Preed> so the ubuntu phone cant dock and turn into a desktop?
  <k1l> Preed: yes source code. the user who left right after you joined complained before that there is no code released so far from ubuntu-phone
  <k1l> Preed: the ubuntu for android based on the motorola webtop hardware . the dev-device was the motorola atrix. i dont know what the actual stage is and if other phones will support it wihout that special hardware
  <Preed> But.. The ubuntu-phone wont be able to do that? only phones that ship with android+ubuntu for android?
  <k1l> Preed: i dont know if there is any special hardware needed. so if you put ubuntu-phone on your old smartphone i dont know if it will support the desktop mode
  <k1l> but that is all guessing. im not an involved dev and there is no code so far.
  <Preed> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=cpWHJDLsqTU#t=1249s
  <Preed> "If your hardware works with android, it will also work with ubuntu"
  <k1l> Preed: that doesnt include the desktop-dock-thingy, imho
  <Preed> True
  <k1l> it means that they  can use the android kernel and the android driver for the hardware components
  <Preed> But why would that need any special hardware? Just launch the desktop and clone the phone screen to the hdmi/mhl-out..
  <Preed> Might want dual ramdacs(?) to output a different/higher resolution to the hdmi out though..
  <Preed> I think the SGS4 will have 1080p resolution though so on that it wouldnt be neccessary
  <Preed> But 1280x720 is a bit low for a desktop
  <Preed> The pics of the ubuntu-phone here http://www.ubuntu.com/devices/phone is an SGS3, aside from no hardware home button, missing samsung logo, and those 3 little dots on the lower right side(speaker?)
  <k1l> no its not. its a galaxy nexus
  <Preed> oh, well, they look damn similar :D
  <Preed> no chrome edge on the nexus though
  <Preed> is the ubuntu phone going to be based on the nexus? bit low-end hardware? or maybe its just the same shell...
  <popey> Preed: no, we're just using the nexus for the demo
  <popey> k1l: the ubuntu for android demo was given on a couple of devices, the motorola was just the first
  <popey> we're not wedded to any particular phone
  <Transhumanist> I'd LOVE to run Ubuntu on my Galaxy Note 2
  <Transhumanist> it's perfect for it
  <Preed> popey: I'd love it on my SGS3 :)
  <popey> equally we're not geared up to make images for every phone someone asks for
  <Preed> popey: Well, I assume you will for the most popular devices? Btw, is the docking and launching full desktop going to be in both ubuntu for android and the ubuntu-phone?
  <Transhumanist> Of course. But given Samsung's dominance and that the S3 and Note 2 are extremely common and meet your hardware specs, it would seem a smart move to target them.
  <k1l> popey: ah, thanks from the info.  i only knew about the atrix
  <jrtappers> What phone will be the first to get ubuntu phone support in beta?
  <popey> jrtappers: no decision yet
  <popey> Preed: its in U4A, and makes sense to be in U4P too, assuming a few things
  <Preed> Do android apps/google store run on A4P too? Or does it require a full android system underneath?
  <popey> A4P?
  <Preed> I mean the android phone
  <Preed> erm... ubuntu phone
  <AlanBell> wait, Android runs on phones???
  <popey> hah
  <Preed> sorry Im tired, was up coding till 8 this morning and got up at 10 :o
  <k1l> AlanBell: yes but its just a beta :)
  <AlanBell> whatever will they come up with next :)
  <popey> U4A is Ubuntu on top of Android, and the Android bit works just like a "normal" Android phone
  <popey> so yeah, the "Android" in "Ubuntu for Android" has play store and Android apps etc
  <k1l> the ubuntu-phone wont have the google play
  <Preed> popey: What Im wondering is if the "ubuntu phone" will be able to run google play store/android apps?
  <popey> Ubuntu for Phones isn't Android, so no, it won't have Google Play
  <popey> Just like iOS doesn't have Google Play âº
  <Preed> popey: Im guessing it might be a while until the app market for U4P has caught up with play store...?
  <Preed> although porting the apps from android to U4P should be quite easy
  <popey> Yeah, see Marks recent mail to ubuntu-devel about that
  <popey> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2013-January/036297.html
  <popey> now is the time
  <Transhumanist> can anyone subscribe to ubuntu-del?
  <Transhumanist> thanks
  <popey> yes, but it's moderated
  <popey> i.e. not a discussion list
  <Preed> maybe even the SDK has option to compile for U4P and U4A simultaneously?
  <popey> there is ubuntu-devel-discuss for discussion
  <Transhumanist> I don't wish to reply, just receive it :)
  <popey> Preed: nope
  <k1l> well, not having apps was a big problem for webos (beside the really insane pricing of the products)
  <popey> ah okay, thats what i do Transhumanist
  <popey> yeah,it's a challenge
  <k1l> i hope ubuntu finds a way to pass this cliff
  <Transhumanist> native Ubuntu apps won't run on U4P, right? Need to be coded in QML?
  <popey> they could be ported
  <popey> we're recommending Qt/QML, yes
  <Transhumanist> yes, but they need to be. However, QML apps should run fine on desktop Ubuntu once the phone is docked?
  <Transhumanist> So QML isn't required?
  <Preed> Transhumanist: probably not, since when its docked Im guessing its still running the same kernel/drivers etc
  <chriadam|away> it depends on your definition of "run fine".  when you're dealing with an entirely different HCI paradigm, you _need_ to adapt for application for the best user experience.
  <chriadam|away> having a touch-optimised, limited screen real-estate application running as-is on a desktop is... suboptimal.  and similarly, having a desktop-optimised, large screen with physical input methods, application, simply doesn't translate to the mobile device.  so that's one thing that is going to need developer support for, imo.
  <Transhumanist> I agree with that.
  <Transhumanist> But it'd be smart to have QML work flawlessly on Ubuntu desktop so that the only porting devs need to do is the UI side of things. Still a daunting task, but that still saves a lot of other code from having to be ported.
  <chriadam|away> QML does work flawlessly on Ubuntu desktop
  <Transhumanist> Yeah I figure. So people just need to start using it for native Ubuntu desktop apps
  <Transhumanist> so there's a big pool to draw from when U4P does come out
  <chriadam|away> people have been.  bobweaver has been writing some really interesting things, for example ;-)  but I agree, it has a long way to go in terms of traction in the developer community.
  <Transhumanist> that's cool. I'm writing an Android app at the moment that sends new vocabulary words to the notification bar each day. Will something like this be possible in Ubuntu Phone? If there a notifications feature?
  <Transhumanist> I believe Mark Shuttleworth is providing funding to an Australian mobile phone mesh networking project for making calls in a decentralised way. It would be cool to see that eventually integrated into Ubuntu Phones.
  <Degwees> Hey everyone, I've got a question about the mobile Ubuntu. Will any current phones be supported?
  <Degwees> particularly bada phones
  <k1l> at least the phones need to be open to let a linux be installed. and then they need to ship linux drivers
  <Degwees> I'm using a Samsung S8500, last I heard when someone tried to port Android onto it, they burned 4 phones and stopped working on the project
  <Transhumanist> The first phones are HIGHLY likely to be phones which can run Android. They're also likely to be phones which are very easy to unlock. E.g. Nexus devices.
  <Transhumanist> but that's just the first phones
  <Degwees> As far as I know, Android, Bada and Ubuntu all come from Debian?
  <Transhumanist> Android doesn't
  <Transhumanist> Android uses the Linux kernel, but the rest is fairly unique
  <Degwees> Alright
  <Transhumanist> I say that they'll probably target Android phones because they'll want to prevent duplication of effort, and they've got a seperate team working on getting Ubuntu running on Android phones while Android remains installed
  <k1l> android is a linux kernel with alot of java
  <Degwees> Guess I'll check if they've evolved over the last year with bada phones. It'd be awesome to see something else on the Samsung Wave cos you know... bada sucks
  <Transhumanist> haha
  <Degwees> It was great at first... great player, great camera, great everything with a but
  <Degwees> but it was never truly stable
  <Degwees> And after 2+ years that seriously gets on my nerves
  <Degwees> I mean, you know.... Even the god damn alarm clock didn't work properly :D
  <Transhumanist> I can see that. I had the Debian-based Nokia N900. Good phone. Fairly stable. But Nokia never really supported it. Paperweight now I guess.
  <Degwees> I've been on the SE boat mostly, just later started using Samsung. It's nice but they don't seem to be very good at software development
  <Transhumanist> Try their Smart TV. It's a nightmare.
  <Degwees> Haven't had the chance to, yet
  <Transhumanist> Don't.
  <Degwees> Heard news about Estonian Elion and Samsung working together to create a system which doesnt require a "digibox"
  <Degwees> not too sure how it's called in english though
  <Transhumanist> You'd think that with such a strong phones department, Samsung could put 2 and 2 together and use Android for TV's for a streamlined experience. But not.
  <Degwees> but that was for TVs
  <Degwees> Ah well, maybe I'll just upgrade to a Samsung S2 and give the Wave to my wife lol
  <Degwees> Anyways, thanks for the information :)
  <Transhumanist> I'm not sure the S2 will see Ubuntu any time soon.
  <Transhumanist> The Galaxy Nexus would be a better upgrade choice
  <Transhumanist> especially since it now runs Android 4.2
  <Degwees> Can't S2 be upgraded to that?
  <Transhumanist> When Samsung decides to.
  <Transhumanist> The Galaxy Nexus is a superior device to the S2
  <Transhumanist> should cost about the same
  <Transhumanist> and the Galaxy Nexus seems to be the testing phone for Ubuntu for Phones
  <Degwees> Costs a bit more here actually, just checked
  <Degwees> It's 360â¬ vs 390â¬
  <Transhumanist> OK. What if you order overseas? I am Australian, but my Galaxy Note 2 is from Bulgaria.
  <Transhumanist> haha
  <Degwees> :D
  <Transhumanist> anyway, best to keep this chan to Ubuntu discussion I guess
  <popey> âº
  <popey> its cool
  <Degwees> Thats probably 250 AUD and 270
  <Transhumanist> =)
  <Degwees> Thanks though, I'll remember that
  <Degwees> But yeah, not sure if I'd still be getting the Nexus for it seems to lack battery life now that i'm reading into it
  <Degwees> Which, you know, is awesome for the S2 and even the Wave... The first year at least :D
  <Degwees> Anyways thank again!
  <Degwees> thanks*
  <Transhumanist> no problem. Nice to chat :(
  <Transhumanist> err :)
  <today> Will ubuntu be faster than android?
  <today> I mean, its basically a native app, right?
  <today> Using native apps*
  <AlanBell> today: impossible to say, and what you think of as "faster" might not be to do with the application speed as such
  <AlanBell> it will be plenty fast enough on a 2014 model phone
  <today> Low end phones will still exist
  <today> What are its languages for development?
  <k1l> the minimum specs mentioned on the site are not really low end phones
  <today> No java right?
  <AlanBell> low end screens will still exist, low end processors not so much
  <today> My new phone is 500 mhz
  <AlanBell> today: "native" apps are Qt/QML with javascript
  <today> java is slow right?
  <AlanBell> HTML 5 is also supported, I am guessing that is a webkit rendering engine
  <AlanBell> no, java is not slow
  <today> Its high level
  <AlanBell> a JVM takes a little while to start which is why 10 years ago, java applets were slow to start
  <today> Its slower than c ++ no?
  <AlanBell> not really in any practical sense
  <today> Mmm ever played triplea? That's slow, and its all java
  <AlanBell> it is all about the algorithm, not the language
  <today> You need a quad core machine to run it decently
  <today> The language is built on algorithims
  <today> And ever java app I use, is slow
  <k1l> ab bad scripted app on html5,qml or whatever will always be slower than a good java one.
  <AlanBell> quad core only helps multithreaded applications or running many processes at once
  <AlanBell> if you have a single threaded application then throwing more cores at it does not make any difference at all
  <today> Still its slow
  <AlanBell> and hardly anything is ever CPU bound, it is all IO waiting
  <today> Android apps are slow too :p
  <AlanBell> write an algorithm that touches the disk less it will go faster, nothing at all to do with the language
  <today> It has allot to do with the language
  <today> On java it is easier to make slow apps
  <AlanBell> why?
  <today> Its high level
  <today> And ugly too imo
  <today> I tried a bunch of development environments programmed in java. Ugly and terribly slow, and buggy
  <AlanBell> there are lots of reasons to not like java very much, but applets in web browsers in the late '90s being a bit sluggish is not one of them
  <AlanBell> swing is ugly perhaps
  <today> I'm talking about desktop apps
  <M4rtinK> what about Python support @ Ubuntu-phone ?
  <M4rtinK> there are quite a lot of people writing mobile Python applications in the Maemo/MeeGo community
  <M4rtinK> (running on Nokia N900 & N9)
  <M4rtinK> using the LGPL PySide bindings for Qt
  <M4rtinK> and it looks like PyQt already supports Qt5 (which is what Ubuntu-phone is using, right ?)
  <popey> yes, to qt5
  <M4rtinK> so is Python support on the official roadmap ? or left to the community ?
  <Walther> let's just hope that some of the community efforts will be accepted and pulled as official supports :P
  <Walther> because that's what true community support should be - community's work taken as part of the whole
  <Walther> not just as "download the community patch from here and there" for everything and nothing
  <M4rtinK> for the record, I've just got QML hello world running with Qt5 & PyQt on desktop :)
  <Walther> Are there any plans to merge the Ubuntu Phone work to Ubuntu Nexus work?
  <Walther> As in, having the Ubuntu Phone UI in a tablet would make sense as well
  <Walther> or perhaps switching between phone UI and desktop UI
  <popey> Walther: much of the ubuntu phone work will ripple into the distro, so as a byproduct will end up in the nexus7 build
  <popey> and vice versa, lessons learned from the nexus 7 experiment will result in a better phone experience
  <Walther> mmh. But I was mainly thinking about the swipe UI
  <Walther> which is unlikely to pop to the desktop version at least
  <xavinux1> Hi people, I would like to know how can I cntribute with the Ubuntu phone
  <AlanBell> Walther: some of that is already in the desktop version, it was called utouch but they don't call it that any more
  <AlanBell> xavinux1: mostly by learning about QML at the moment and thinking about what apps you might like to develop for the platform
  <Walther> yeah, at least the ability to three-finger drag and zoom windows, which is really cool
  <Walther> But yeah, I hope there will be tight collaboration between the -phone and -nexus teams
  <xavinux1> thanks for your answer AlanBell
  <popey> s/utouch/open input framework/
  <xavinux1> so need people that program with QT Languaje?
  <xavinux1> and develop apps?
  <AlanBell> xavinux1: right now there is nothing to see, and nothing to contribute to in the platform itself, but we do know that if you want to write apps for it then Qt/QML is going to be the way to do that
  <Walther> I wish the possibility to help in platform level would arise as soon as possible
  <Walther> as in, support for different devices etc
  <xavinux1> ok Sir, as Walther says, I have a Nokia N9, perhaps can be userful to test the platform on it and support other devices as they do with nexus?
  <Walther> I have a N9 as well, and extremely willing to help testing on it
  <Walther> N9 should be pretty well documented - there's the MeeGo community hacks, Mer project, Nitdroid android port for it, Jolla Sailfish... etc
  <Walther> so porting ubu phone to it shouldn't be difficult
  <popey> The N9 might be a bit slow these days.
  <AlanBell> I would expect there will be some instructions for the Galaxy Nexus after CES or perhaps after MWC
  <AlanBell> and my guess is that the first other thing it gets put on will be the Nexus 7
  <AlanBell> even though that isn't a phone
  <xavinux1> ok AlanBell
  <Walther> yes, it would be great to put it on my nexus 7 :O
  <Walther> :P *
  <xavinux1> Walther would be great to run it on the n9 too, don't it?
  <Walther> yup
  <gac> out of interest, are people going to be able to do their own builds, a la xda-developers? I've just retired my original HTC Desire which just about meets the minimum specs on the webpage, so i'd be interested to know if this is ever likely to arrive on that
  <gac> although being a very old handset, I don't expect there'll be anything official from ubuntu/canonical
  <Walther> I would hope for more of a "generic kernel" approach
  <Walther> as in, not only custom ports a la xda-developers, but those patches for support being pulled to the real distribution
  <Walther> it would be even better
  <Walther> have the advantage of not beign a custom build -> updates not dependent on the couple dudes who ported it
  <gac> it would, but it then creates the illusion of more support than there actually is IMO, so i don't think canonical would do that
  <Walther> we can hope though, and be vocal about it
  <popey> gac: yes, we're expecting to release a build which people can hack around with for other phones
  <popey> but what we release will be open source so people can use that and build their own
  <gac> sounds good, i'll keep hold of the Desire then rather than shipping it off for recycling, see what happens with ubuntu :)
  <M4rtinK> a HP Touchpad build would be nice :)
  <M4rtinK> many developers got them from the firesale (myself included) :)
  <Walther> But I take it no repos / builds are available until as of CES
  <M4rtinK> also already runs Android with CM9 just fine
  <Walther> BTW, is there a dedicated channel for nexus ubuntu?
  <Walther> nexus 7 ubuntu *
  <popey> It's unlikely anything will be available anytime soon
  <Walther> but we are the anxious geeks! we want our weekly fix of hacking now :P
  <popey> hehe, me too!
  <M4rtinK> +1
  <netchip> pff
  <netchip> We know how Ubuntu Phone is looking
  <netchip> And now it's just waiting for source code
  <netchip> I don't care about images
  <netchip> They won't help my SGS3
  <xavinux1> if the n9 can run an android 4.1 without problem, think can run an ubuntu phone os..
  <Walther> Yeah, that's what I thought
  <Walther> it might not be fast enough to comfortably run the desktop thing on a dock
  <Walther> but for the basic phone OS, it should be *fine*
  <Walther> not only barely enough, but fine
  <kristof> Hey! Any word on when we'll get those images for ubuntu-mobile?
  <k1l> <k1l> kristof: no need for swearing
  <kristof> k1l: :C apologies.
  <kristof> Is there a release date planned?
  <k1l> no, no dates yet. but it is to be expected that the dev-phone release (galaxy nexus) will be released some time after the CES
  <kristof> I'm a bit irritated that this was developed behind closed doors, but whatever.
  <k1l> kristof: why are you irritated that its behind closed doors?
  <kristof> k1l: Because the point of open-source is for open development. Much of the work to build Ubuntu Mobile has already happened.
  <kristof> It's effectively closed-source.
  <kristof> (until the dev release)
  <k1l> kristof: wait i will post a post from alan bell because i wont type it again: https://plus.google.com/109175303602657131317/posts/6doQRuuN433
  <k1l> if you want to contirbute (i bet most of the critics wont anyway, they just want a shitstorm) there will be a release after the CES
  <kristof> k1l: Oh, that was actually quite informative, thank you. =)
  <kristof> I suspected that most of this was developed in the open but simply as fragmented software.
  <kristof> Alright, I'm satisfied. Thanks!
  <k1l> CES is a business meeting, where ubuntu wants to show the OS to the manufactures to get them on the boat. it was not a user-press release so far
  <k1l> makes a bookmark on AlanBell s google+ post :)
  <AlanBell> did I accidentally say something useful?
  <bobweaver> k1l,  howabout this I have been asking for days where I should upload fixs to the Elements that Ubuntu made I have gotteen no where
  <bobweaver> where I should file bugs
  <AlanBell> for days??
  <bobweaver> for days
  <AlanBell> 3 days tops :)
  <bobweaver> 2 days
  <xavinux1> Walther think we can start testing Ubuntu and make it work the N9? Anyone may be interested in helping?
  <bobweaver> lol
  <bobweaver> AlanBell,  you are funny man lol
  <bobweaver> yeah I amwhere is the colde
  <bobweaver> er
  <AlanBell> I have filed 1 bug so far, one sec . . . .
  <AlanBell> bug #1096341
  <bobweaver> I need to know what glib schema the phone is using so That I can write apps against it
  <bobweaver> !bug #1096341
  <bobweaver> comon bot
  <bobweaver> lol
  <AlanBell> bug #1096341
  <ubot5> bug 1096341 in UI Toolkit "GU image size advice is wrong" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1096341
  <bobweaver> AlanBell,  now try to look at the font
  <bobweaver> and resize it
  <bobweaver> lol
  <bobweaver> or try to right click on anything that uses a abstract button
  <bobweaver> or have anything that needs to hover a abstract Button or resize it smoothly
  <AlanBell> https://bugs.launchpad.net/qml-toolkit is the place to file bugs
  <bobweaver> thanks AlanBell  what up patchs ?
  <AlanBell> all hidden in here somewhere: https://launchpad.net/manhattan
  <AlanBell> no source code yet
  <AlanBell> bobweaver: so you have the QML stuff running?
  <bobweaver> yeah I had to download the tar and then build the comentents my self
  <bobweaver> AlanBell,  I have a version of Unity 2d that uses the stuff yes
  <AlanBell> I got QT creator running earlier, but got annoyed about the different versions of QML in the repos and PPA and got bored
  <bobweaver> s|comentents| Compents
  <bobweaver> I can spell
  <bobweaver> can't lol
  <bobweaver> AlanBell, Never set Bashrc to do a man's / womens job
  <AlanBell> :)
  <bobweaver> AlanBell,  I use 3 different qt version and have never had any trouble
  <bobweaver> AlanBell, what I am working on Right now (most is still qt-quick 1 )
  <bobweaver> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhRBTqdlYSg
  <AlanBell> oh I am sure it isn't much trouble, I just put some qt 2.0 code in qt creator and it complained
  <bobweaver> so everything that I have wrote for the TV will also work in the phone
  <bobweaver> AlanBell,  it is the backend of Unity 2d that uses qx11info that is not in qt5
  <AlanBell> nice
  <bobweaver> so I am porting that but it is going to take me a couple of months. But if the phone is already there I do not need to port
  <AlanBell> so do you have a remote control that is going to run on the phone?
  <bobweaver> as I have 3 different form factors
  <bobweaver> TV , Desktop , Tablet
  <bobweaver> all can be changed from  the dash
  <bobweaver> and all is 3rd party , that is why I must know how the glib is set up in phone
  <bobweaver> if (unity2dConfiguerationformFactor === "phone") console.log("hello there Alan \n this is a formfactor phone ") else if (unity2dConfigurationsformFactor === "desktop") con......
  <AlanBell> don't forget rotation, the phone could be tall or wide
  <bobweaver> Image { source: foo.png rotation: if (status === Image.Ready)  1 else 0   behavior on rotation {NumberAnimation {from 0 ; to: 360;  durration: 1200 ; easing.type: Easing.OutBounce }}     :)
  <bobweaver> I think that I like adding Behavior on whatever
  <bobweaver> rather then states and transtions but there is a time and place for wverything
  <bobweaver> everything
  <AlanBell> so what does that do? spin 360 degrees when you rotate the phone?
  <bobweaver> well you could all it when ever you want say on a button or what ever
  <bobweaver> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qb8s7pSBu30
  <bobweaver> On the light dm parts  and the parts that are loading are all behaviors
  <bobweaver> AlanBell,  that I can not tel you because I do not know how the phone glib settings are set
  <bobweaver> I am sure that it is some sorta Strut Manager but not sure how I could call iut because I have not seen the code yet :)
  <bobweaver> AlanBell, here I will write a simple app that spins a picture
  <AlanBell> I get that things can spin
  <AlanBell> the thing is when the user rotates the phone the canvas changes shape
  <AlanBell> and they can rotate it left or right
  <AlanBell> so you might want to reflow to a two column layout in landscape mode, or change some of the controls
  <AlanBell> there is an iOS calculator that is a conventional 4 function calculator in portrait mode and a scientific calculator in landscape
  <bobweaver> AlanBell, http://paste.ubuntu.com/1500958/
  <AlanBell> file:///home/alan/spin/spin.qml:1:1: module "QtQuick" version 2.0 is not installed  import QtQuick 2.0
  <bobweaver> Behavior Trumps everything see if the mouseArea is clicked it says that the text rotation = 1 . but because there is a behavior that is assigned to it it does that
  <bobweaver> change it to import QtQuick 1.1
  <AlanBell> why?
  <bobweaver> or change your qt version that you are useing
  <AlanBell> how?
  <bobweaver> tools -> options -> qt -> qtversions
  <bobweaver> then add the qmake file
  <bobweaver>  /opt/qt5/bin/qmake
  <AlanBell> I don't have a qt section in tools-options
  <AlanBell> ah, build and run
  <bobweaver> AlanBell,  http://imagebin.org/241859
  <bobweaver> or you can configure using project button
  <bobweaver> "Manage Versions "
  <bobweaver> AlanBell,  IMHO the ppa for daily is not that great it is beta qt5
  <bobweaver> gstreamer is all messed up in it webview and other's also
  <bobweaver> best to DL from nokia's site
  <bobweaver> stable qt5
  <AlanBell> I think I will wait until it hits the repos
  <bobweaver> http://qt-project.org/wiki/Qt_5.0
  <bobweaver> AlanBell,  what is your version of qtcreator 2.5.0 ?       help-->about qtcreator
  <AlanBell> Qt Creator 2.6.0
  <bobweaver> nice
  <bobweaver> higher then mine I use 2.5.0 my fav version so far. But I do not use the designer
  <AlanBell> do you use it with multiple monitors?
  <bobweaver> and tv's
  <AlanBell> I have one monitor higher than the other and the menus get disconnected and appear at the hight of the lower monitor
  <AlanBell> I should do a bug report about that
  <bobweaver> screenshot  ?
  <bobweaver> that kinda sounds like a bamf thingy
  <bobweaver> AlanBell,  unity2d or 3d ?
  <AlanBell> gnome shell
  <AlanBell> I will try in unity in a sec
  <bobweaver> AlanBell,  if you are looking for a mass amounts of example code I have a ppa
  <bobweaver>  ~u2t/bleedingedge
  <bobweaver> only for 12.04 though :(
  <AlanBell> menus work in unity
  <bobweaver> Right now I am making it so that there are var's for all the Easing.<This> and durration:<This>  so that users can change the way that icons are loaded in  launcher /dash
  <bobweaver> so that behavior code will look like this
  <bobweaver>         Behavior on rotation {NumberAnimation{from: 0 ;to: 1080;duration: (dashLensConfigureation.durrationTime); easing.type: Easing.dashLensConfigureation.easingType}
  <bobweaver> so then user can do  gsettings set com.canonical.Unity2d.dashLensConfigurations durration-time = 1300
  <AlanBell> http://developer.ubuntu.com/api/ubuntu-12.10/qml/mobile/qml-ubuntu-components0-pagestack.html I guess all apps load in a pagestack which does the right side swipe
  <bobweaver> or I will make a slider in the home sections
  <bobweaver> Yeah I am sure that PageStack calls other things or at least it should or it is not a Real UI
  <bobweaver> just a shell so to say and would not be able to interact with gnome
  <AlanBell> wonder if an app can screw about with the QML of another app if they are done like that
  <bobweaver> what do you mean ?
  <bobweaver> like take a app  that is in C++ and then make a declaritive view for it ?
  <AlanBell> well in one page can I do this.parent.otherapp.something
  <bobweaver> still not sure what you mean sorry
  <AlanBell> in the demo you saw the apps switcher right? you swipe from the right edge of the screen to page through all the apps running
  <bobweaver> yeh
  <AlanBell> so how isolated are they in terms of scope?
  <bobweaver> I am *guessing* that that is a strut manager with C++ backing just like launcher and how it hides and knows the size of screen
  <AlanBell> if the switcher is a pagestack and each app is loaded on a page are they sandboxed into that page or is it all one big QML structure that they can all access
  <bobweaver> I am sure that there is also global vars that are used for that but not sure because I have not seen backend code yet
  <bobweaver> AlanBell,  I am guessing hear but I bet there is a Model
  <bobweaver> AlanBell,  say I wanted to be able to open any *.desktop file in qml and I wanted it to be simple
  <bobweaver> make c++ plugin  http://paste.ubuntu.com/1501017/
  <bobweaver> then in a "plugin" file I exspose the element
  <bobweaver> so that in qml I can call it
  <bobweaver> Like this http://paste.ubuntu.com/1501024/
  <bobweaver> because there is a element that Is created in C++ and I exspose it to QML via Plug in I can then call it any time that I want
  <bobweaver> like in a button
  <bobweaver> that is how Unity 2d launchs all its apps
  <bobweaver> well......
  <bobweaver> there is alot more to it then that but  idea over all
  <bobweaver> the c++ will make a LIB under /usr/lib/qt(version)/imports/PluginName
  <AlanBell> yeah, I don't think that it can be a pagestack exactly
  <bobweaver> then you just import that in you your qml file in are example   import Application 1.0
  <mhall119> AlanBell: the apps are all going to be sandboxed and isolated from eachother, if that's your concern
  <bobweaver> Or you can make a bunch of qml and make a folder and make that a plugin also just like Ubuntu.Componets is done
  <AlanBell> mhall119: cool, I was expecting that to be the case somehow. It is hard to get a grasp of the overall architecture from the bits that have been released
  <bobweaver> AlanBell,  + 1 million
  <mhall119> AlanBell: I don't expect the window-management functionality itself is written in QM:
  <bobweaver> only reason I have not wrote apps for it yet
  <bobweaver> I have no idea what I can do with the core backend yet and I do not need to make a bunch of declaritiv things that I do not know if the phone has already
  <bobweaver> mhall119,  qt-bamf  ?
  <bobweaver> Phone will be like
  <bobweaver> org.ayatana.bamf.view' on object at path /org/ayatana/bamf/application756416830
  <bobweaver> org.ayatana.bamf.view' on object at path /org/ayatana/bamf/application756416830
  <bobweaver> lol
  <AlanBell> mhall119: oh, I thought it would be. I presume the UbuntuShape function is for the launcher buttons so figured the rest would be QML
  <mhall119> bobweaver: there may be some manner of bamf going on
  <mhall119> AlanBell: I bet there's a lot of the UI that uses QML
  <AlanBell> mhall119: do you know much more about this than we do?
  <mhall119> but window management is more low-level than that
  <mhall119> AlanBell: not really, no
  <AlanBell> ok, fair enough :)
  <mhall119> everything I knew about it what was announced
  <mhall119> "is what was announced"
  <mhall119> I don't even have a prototype :(
  <bobweaver> mhall119,  that is what I am talking about once I know all about all that if bamf then there is dbus if dbus that means that there is a gio and then that means that there is ways to cingure things in a awesome fasion
  <mhall119> bobweaver: I can pretty much gurantee that there is dbus
  <bobweaver> trickle down effect
  <mhall119> since all of unity/dash/indicators/notifications on the desktop is done that way
   * bobweaver needs config.h.in and <source>/data/* 
  <AlanBell> personally I think the main blocker for starting to thing about contemplating writing apps is that I don't know how rotation works, or how to simulate rotation on a desktop application
  <mhall119> but bamf was written to overcome a deficiency in X, if it's using (or going to be using) something else, bamf might not be needed
  <AlanBell> and what the expected standard behaviour of a rotated app on this platform is
  <AlanBell> or how big the screen might be relative to the gu
  <bobweaver>  standard behaviour  most the time == gschema.xml
  <mhall119> AlanBell: I'm told there is an emulator in the works, using whatever the Android SDK uses to emulate (qemu I think), that should probably let you simulate rotations
  <mhall119> AlanBell: the API gives some examples of pixels-per-gu
  <bobweaver> qume has armel things so I bet that that is it
  <mhall119> AlanBell: http://developer.ubuntu.com/api/ubuntu-12.10/qml/mobile/resolution-independence.html
  <bobweaver> just wish that I could help make this better lol :)
  <AlanBell> yeah, I guess I can work out the gus per screen for common resolutions
  <mhall119> bobweaver: you will, soon, everybody this week was busy preparring for the announcement, and then preparring for CES
  <bobweaver> Like I see that there is going to be all desktop phone and everything so that makes me start guessing and I do not like to guess when I am writing apps :)
  <AlanBell> some screen shots or design drafts for the core apps with measurement lines in gu would be good to see what is going on in the designer mind for those
  <bobweaver> mhall119,  I know I just want it NOW !
  <bobweaver> lol
  <AlanBell> and a video of an app rotating would be good
  <mhall119> AlanBell: pixels-per-gu is a function of pixel density, not just resolution
  <bobweaver> NO
  <mhall119> bobweaver: you and me both :)
  <bobweaver> that is not a good Idea
  <bobweaver> you should make your pixle not by some js function
  <mhall119> AlanBell: those are being written as we speak (not literally, since it's Saturday)
  <bobweaver> font.pixleSize:  parent.width / 12
  <bobweaver> that way when re-sizing it will resize if screen gets bigger
  <bobweaver> same with any elements
  <AlanBell> bobweaver: yeah, the gu stuff does appear to need a lot more justification for it's existence than it has at the moment!
  <mhall119> AlanBell: retina displays and the new screens on, say, the GS3 are jusitification for grid units
  <AlanBell> mhall119: I understand the problem they are trying to solve
  <mhall119> one grid unit should, more or less, represent the same physical size regardless of pixel density and resolution
  <bobweaver> like if I do   Image{source: foo.png ; width: Utils.pxgu(70 )}      it will always stay that even if you are in big screen and even if there is different functions for formfactors
  <bobweaver> best to do Image{source: foo.png ; width: parent.width / 12}
  <bobweaver> or what ever looks like 70 px
  <mhall119> bobweaver: parent might re-size without you wanting the button resized
  <bobweaver> I found that out the hard way with t v
  <AlanBell> yes, but this gu is quite big. Not exactly tying up with font sizes, but that order of magnitude. It isn't small as in the width of a thin line
  <bobweaver> mhall119,  then you hardcode
  <AlanBell> and it isn't a consistent fraction of the screen size
  <mhall119> bobweaver: not to pixels, because 50px on an old laptop LCD is button size, but on a retina display it's tiny
  <bobweaver> or you do    if (dashConfigureation.fullScreen === true) parent.width / 2 else ......
  <mhall119> the point is that you always want you button to be button sized, regardless of the size of it's parent, regardless of the size of the screen, regardless of the screen's resolution or it's pixel density
  <bobweaver> then it should be a better way to know what the overall size like WindowInfo {}  and then change that way not writing in a bunch of functions
  <AlanBell> it kind of needs a blog article sized thing justifying why it is a good unit, and where it should be used. I am sure that must exist internally.
  <bobweaver> also translations have been changed :(
  <bobweaver> use to be u2d.tr("this is text to translate ")
  <mhall119> AlanBell: it probably doesn't exist internally, as I'm sure it was all discussed in design meetings until everybody undersstood
  <mhall119> but I can request it
  <bobweaver> but there is also wrote into qs.tr() or whatever the functions is in qt
  <bobweaver> qsTr("text") *
  <AlanBell> mhall119: so me, ali1234, bobweaver all reacted in a "why on earth would I use a unit like that, it is all the bad bits of pixels combined with the not quite rightness of points"
  <AlanBell> I am sure it can be justified, but if that is going to be part of the consistent rhythm of the user interface it needs a bit more selling!
  <bobweaver> << horrible designer
  <bobweaver> :)
  <bobweaver> at any rate I am just supper happy that I am going to be hacking on this code soon
  <bobweaver> until then I make more and more apps that are for unity 2d that can be interdrated real fast to phone core
  <Billy88> Yabaaa
  <bobweaver> Once I know about the qt/c++/dee/bamf/gio/whatever that the phone core is using and if it is using libunity ect
  <Billy88> 3orrr
  <Billy88> Kol 5ara
  <bobweaver> Billy88,  spill something on keyboard ?
  <mhall119> bobweaver: I'm interested in how to access libunity from QML myself, I'll ask about that on Monday
  <bobweaver> mhall119,  in CmakeList.txt
  <Billy88> It's my kid
  <Billy88> I can't tell him no
  <Billy88> ffg
  <bobweaver> mhall119,  like      pkg_check_modules(UNITYCORE REQUIRED unity-core-6.0)
  <bobweaver> then your project knows that it needs that to work
  <bobweaver> then you just add the libs that you want to use to your C++ files that you are going to make into declaritive views
  <bobweaver> so say #include "deelistmodel.h"     then in plugin.cpp      qmlRegisterType<DeeListModel>(uri, 0, 1, "DeeListModel");         then anytime in my qml I just call    DeeListModel{QML Goes Here }
  <bobweaver> as long as I import the libs
  <bobweaver> mhall119,  plugin.cpp     http://paste.ubuntu.com/1501103/     look at the bottom of the file "Q_EXPORT_PLUGIN2(Unity2d, Unity2dPlugin);"        that means that I can all any of them elements now as long as I have a at the top of my qml file      import Unity2d 1.0
  <bobweaver> hope that helps :)
  <HeLLy> I was told to come to this channel with maybe some help on connect mobile broadband here in Bolivia since it is the only country not listed in South America was really hoping to have internet tomorrow for NFL games I will be going back to the states this wednesday so was hoping for a quick fix soon :-/
  <bobweaver> HeLLy,  I am watching the CIN vs HOU game atm
  <mhall119> bobweaver: I'm assuming it's not called Unity2d on the phone version
  <bobweaver> correct
  <bobweaver> them are the things that I am wondering about :)
  <mhall119> bobweaver: and that gives you access to your app's LauncherEntry and stuff?
  <bobweaver> Not sure what you mean ?
  <mhall119> bobweaver: http://developer.ubuntu.com/api/ubuntu-12.10/python/Unity-6.0.html#Unity.LauncherEntry
  <mhall119> that's what you use to add progress bars and counters to your Launcher icon
  <mhall119> I'm wondering how you'd do that from an app written in QML
  <bobweaver> progession on what ?
  <bobweaver> progress *
  <mhall119> on something you app is doing
  <mhall119> it can show in-app progress in the Unity Launcher icon for that app
  <bobweaver> Oh
  <bobweaver> you can send signal
  <mhall119> Nautilus uses it for file-copies, update-manager uses it for upgrade progress, etc
  <bobweaver> http://developer.ubuntu.com/api/ubuntu-12.10/python/Unity-6.0.html#Unity.Filter       can be seen used here  http://paste.ubuntu.com/1501149/
  <bobweaver> then that is exported to qml element as you can see in the plugin
  <ThomasCorwin> How could you purchase a Ubuntu Mobile Device?
  <bobweaver> so yes mhall119
  <k1l> ThomasCorwin: no devices yet. it was just a system showoff
  <ThomasCorwin> kil: okay. Thanks.
  <bobweaver> so mhall119  kinda like this     CmakeList.txt (make sure that the pkg is there) --> File.cpp (file that is working with pkg lib that you told cmake to include)  --> plugin.cpp (expose the File.cpp and export to <qt area>/lib/imports/<PluginName(FileManager)>)  --> FileThingy.qml (In file.qml we import are plugin (import FileManger 1.0)    Now in are qml we can call any of the elemts that are in File.cpp  file File{ Qml goes here })
  <bobweaver> s|file.qm|FileThingy.qml
  <bobweaver> so it is like making a custom lib  then make into declaritive view , then use it in your qml stuff
  <bobweaver> not sure if all the "terms" are right there lol
  #ubuntu-phone 2013-01-06
  <bobweaver> mhall119,  for something like progression I would do   Image{source: "foo.png"  state: launcherItem.progressBarVisible ? "" : "hidden" }      where launcherItem   is your well.....
  <bobweaver> er ctrl+b is bold not new line sorry
  <HeLLy> bobweaver: found the right info yay! NFL TIME!
  <bobweaver> sweet HeLLy sportsbeech ?
  <HeLLy> firstrow
  <HeLLy> Hope my 49ers pull it together next week
  <bobweaver> me too HeLLy  I am huge Niners fan
  <bobweaver> HeLLy,  what do you think about the qb you like keap or smith ?
  <HeLLy> smith :-/
  <HeLLy> He has had it rough for his entire career there with the coach changes and his stats are actually amazing
  <HeLLy> but I believe in keap I have to, he did spank the pats which put a huge smile on my face, the seahawks loss was a kick to the face though
  <HeLLy> I am diehard 49er fan having to deal with there awful seasons for so long been a big follower of Gore and Vernon Davis
  <Transhumanist> "big-name developers such as Electronic Arts are currently developing apps for the new OS."
  <Transhumanist> O.o
  <k1l> ?
  <dank101> hey
  <AlanBell> I will just leave this here http://www.cultofmac.com/208529/why-apple-should-stop-making-ios-apps/
  <AlanBell> night all o/
  <bobweaver> cya AlanBell  nice chating with you :)
  <Rosenzweig> So you can develop Ubuntu Phone apps using the Quickly/QML tool kit right?
  <linuxuz3r> hi Rosenzweig
  <linuxuz3r> can you do that?
  <Rosenzweig> Hello linuxz3r.
  <linuxuz3r> whats quickly?
  <Rosenzweig> Something mentioned in the Ubuntu Phone App creation video.
  <Rosenzweig> It's a set of tools I suppose.
  <linuxuz3r> can you make 3d games with it?
  <Rosenzweig> Not sure.
  <linuxuz3r> ok
  <Rosenzweig> All I know is that to make a phone app you need Ubuntu, you need QT 5 and QML toolkit.
  <Rosenzweig> Now the tutorial I see is for python.
  <Rosenzweig> But is there a way to use C++ instead and compile for the phone?
  <linuxuz3r> qt5 from trolltech?
  <Rosenzweig> I guess there isn't a compiler at all seeing as its all python in this tutorial.
  <Rosenzweig> By Nokia, which is close enough.
  <linuxuz3r> ok
  <Transhumanist> QML is more like the GUI toolkit. For Ubuntu Phone apps
  <Transhumanist> you can indeed make 3D games. OpenGL works fine on Linux
  <Transhumanist> From what I understand, your app logic can run in C++, but they want the GUI in QML
  <Transhumanist> It seems like QML can do 3D games and call OpenGL, based on a document I'm reading about Qt5 from a year ago.
  <linuxuz3r> ok
  <linuxuz3r> i cant wait for uphone apps
  <Transhumanist> Then start coding one! :D
  <Jester86> hey guys
  <Jester86> so what is an approximate status on the ubuntu phone?
  <Jester86> is it a real possibility or still very unknown?
  <limikael> hey
  <limikael> first time i heard about this..
  <limikael> cool
  <limikael> what does it use for graphics? i suppose it is not X
  <limikael> wayland?
  <popey> Jester86: https://twitter.com/sabdfl/status/287829942249607168
  <popey> âº
  <mesquka> it is a very real possilbility, but they have fallen behind schedule
  <mesquka> andriod is linux on phone if your wondering
  <popey> mesquka: who's behind schedule?
  <mesquka> the dev team for ubuntu phone
  <popey> we are?
  <Transhumanist> Are they?
  <Transhumanist> Nobody told me anything about them being behind schedule. Not even the rumour mill that seems to constitue tech journalism.
  <mesquka> my source is #ubuntu (brady)
  <mesquka> so you are on schedule?
  <popey> no idea who brady is
  <limikael> are you open to hearing some thoughts even if they are critical? :)
  <popey> we absolutely are. we have units to demo at CES which is exactly what we wanted âº
  <mesquka> ok, unreliable source then
  <limikael> you know what i would want rather than a ubuntu phone? i would like a 100% web based os, like firefox os
  <limikael> or chrome os
  <mesquka> mmmm.....
  <limikael> but developed in collaboration with the community
  <limikael> that os could then be ran on both phones and surf pads
  <limikael> but it is a cool project non the less
  <popey> well, mozilla are doing firefox OS, and you'd have to speak to google about chrome os
  <popey> we're not doing either
  <mesquka> it would be a good option, i believe android prooved that linux on phones and there is the fact im using arch on my raspberry pi self built smartphone ;D
  <mesquka> you can fork chomium os if you wanted
  <limikael> sounds like a lot of work.. :)
  <popey> well, that's not what we're doing âº
  <limikael> but i think i will do it.. some time in my life when i have an infinite amount of money i will create something very small and slim that just boot up to a web browser
  <limikael> ok but i will not go on about that
  <Transhumanist> What they're doing is eliminating device categories by conflating phones, tablets, desktops, and laptops into a single device with some different docks.
  <Transhumanist> And it's wonderful.
  <limikael> an ubuntu is really cool
  <Ryan45> maybe they can do Internet Explorer OS
  <limikael> eeehehhheh
  <mesquka> i really like the idea
  <Ryan45> popey is ubuntu phone a TI OMAP specific project at the moment?
  <Jester86> mesquka, sorry had to get another beer.
  <Jester86> so when you say it is a real possibility.. is that within this lifetime or just eventually?
  <mesquka> within the next 2 years probably
  <Ryan45> The web is great but app dev is always going to be limited
  <Ryan45> there is certain resources you simply dont want to make available to the web
  <mesquka> linux on phones, lets see..... mostly ARM processors, already existing kernal for that
  <mesquka> ryan what do you mean?
  <mesquka> as to linux on phones, if google can do it, so can we
  <bobweaver> anyone here know anything about https://reviews.ubuntu.com/reviews/api/1.0/reviews/filter/en/ubuntu/precise/any/vlc like if I can get more then reviews ?
  <bobweaver> Or other api's that are like that ?
  <mesquka> no
  <mesquka> afk
  <mesquka> im back
  <mesquka> hi
  <_polto_> hi people
  <_polto_> is there a way to test ubuntu-phone on my Galaxy Note 2 ? I am running a chrooted Ubuntu for a year now. My web and mail servers are running on it. :) but I'd really like to ban Android completely from my phone. Is it already possible since it has been announced ?
  <mesquka> hi
  <_polto_> hi mesquka
  <mesquka> is there an irc channel for just general chat
  <mesquka> ??
  <ubuntubhoy> ubuntu related ?
  <mesquka> no
  <mesquka> just in genreal
  <ubuntubhoy> just do a channel search
  <mesquka> cant
  <ubuntubhoy> but all channels with have a general subject matter
  <mesquka> ???
  <mesquka> oh right, alis, forgot
  <mesquka> I can't concentrate
  <mesquka> *sigh*
  <mesquka> What's the latest news on ubuntu phone?
  <Emanon> And can we get an image to flash?
  <ubuntubhoy> nothing will happen till after CES
  <Emanon> Bummer.
  <Emanon> Cause I'd like to drop the droid.
  <Emanon> Any news on whether full disk encryption and an actual "Lock" screen will be available or just the insecure "Welcome" screen.
  <ubuntubhoy> not got a clue
  <ubuntubhoy> it is still very much a WIP though
  <Emanon> Because I'd like to see a decent secure phone.
  <Emanon> It would be nice to script it to turn on location services and beacon the location to a web interface or pre-established email address in the event of repeated wrong code entries.
  <popey> #ubuntu-discuss is for general ubuntu discussion mesquka
  <popey> plenty of other channels exist for specific topics
  <mesquka> thanks, I was looking for ubuntu-discuss
  <mesquka> hello?
  <k1l_> ?
  <mesquka> I really need to see a psychologist
  <mesquka> If my parents would let me RAGE
  <mesquka> Just want  to smash my mac and everything around me
  <Robbilie> hello guys :)
  <mesquka> Hi robb
  <Robbilie> k1l_,
  <Robbilie> banned me on ubu :D
  <Robbilie> so are there more updates to find here than over there?
  <k1l_> Robbilie: stop that
  <Robbilie> k1l_, what did i do?!
  <k1l_> evading a ban/mute on purpose its not what its ment for
  <Robbilie> i was chatting fine with others
  <k1l_> Robbilie: i asked you several times to stop that offtopic. you didnt follow the guidlines.
  <k1l_> !guidelines > Robbilie
  <ubot5> Robbilie, please see my private message
  <Robbilie> i stopped talking bout arch?!
  <Robbilie> the bot is awesome :D
  <Robbilie> k1l_, opk read through this
  <Robbilie> *ok gonna
  <mesquka> hello?
  <Robbilie> hey
  <no_tech> hi there.  so the phone was announced, but is there any way to actually install/run it on a devide
  <no_tech> device?
  <k1l_> no_tech: nope. no images/code yet.
  <popey> see /topic âº
  <Robbilie> thanks that was helpful
  <Robbilie> where the faqs are partly kinda strange
  <popey> how so?
  <Robbilie> Is it running X or Wayland or something else?
  <Robbilie> Unknown.
  <Robbilie> that is strange...
  <Robbilie> the are running it without knowing what tech they use? :D
  <Transhumanist> Or they don't want to tell us yet
  <Transhumanist> Keep in mind Canonical is announcing a lot more details about it at the CES in a few days
  <Transhumanist> But we've been told that images for our devices should arrive in a few months. If nothing too drastic happens, it should be safe to say that at least ONE type of Android phone (likely the Galaxy Nexus) will be able to run Ubuntu OS this year
  <no_tech> I would just love to know what devices they would focus on. My company i work for uses Blackberry, and I was hoping to get a nexus 4 for personal use, but will now wait to see what devices ubuntu will run on.  I thought it really looked good on the video's released thus far.
  <Robbilie> no_tech, i guess it wont run on a blackberry, but with the nexus you should be fine, even when the g nexus will get it first
  <no_tech> Robbilie: am sure no Blackberry.. will still wait before coughing up for a nexus phone
  <Robbilie> no_tech, i guess thats the best way ;)
  <Robbilie> still, i love my razr i and with the intel cpu explicitly mentioned on there support page i guess i will be fine :D
  <Robbilie> and on the safe side :D
  <dank101> why is it so quiet
  <Robbilie> cause nobody knows anything :D
  <popey> It's Sunday.
  <Robbilie> or that xD
  <dank101> yeh good point
  <Robbilie> pay attention, dont talk about sundays, you will get banned because its offtopic ;)
  <Robbilie> right k1l_ ?
  <dank101> can someone help me
  <Transhumanist> no_tech: it's pretty certainly, though still not 100% confirmed, that the first Ubuntu Phone compatible device will be the somewhat old Galaxy Nexus
  <dank101> i was trying to compile a app for the new ubuntu phone
  <Robbilie> Transhumanist, correct
  <Robbilie> dank101, probblems?
  <k1l_> Robbilie: poking the ops they banned you when you act against the channel guidelines isnt a very good idea
  <no_tech> Transhumanist: thanks.  i may try pick up a second hand one once the Rom is released
  <Transhumanist> As will I
  <Robbilie> k1l_, am i currently acting against the guidelines? just warning other users before they also get banned by paucity of their
  <dank101> yes it is a compiling error
  <Robbilie> whats the error and what are you compiling with
  <dank101> Qt5
  <dank101> and it saying something about GLX failing to load
  <Robbilie> glx...sorry dunno what this is :/
  <dank101> i think its OpenGL
  <dank101> something with these nvidia drivers
  <popey> can you pastebin the entire error?
  <Robbilie> popey, great idea
  <dank101> its OK i got a answer on ask ubuntu
  <Robbilie> a working solution? :D
  <Robbilie> can you post the link? might run into this soon too
  <no_tech> so i understand that the ubuntu way is to get teh community involved etc, but part of me just wishes that the anouncement included an actual device or rom being available.  this waiting is a killer...;-)
  <Robbilie> no_tech, true, i hate it when companys annouce smthng you cant get your hands on after the presentatiopn
  <Robbilie> their fail, they let the devs wait and they get bored and loose interest
  <k1l>  wait i will post a post from alan bell because i wont type it again: https://plus.google.com/109175303602657131317/posts/6doQRuuN433
  <k1l> this wasnt a enduser announcment in the first place. it was an anouncment for the CES to get the attention of manufactures to get them into the boat
  <Robbilie> who is he?
  <ubuntubhoy> k1l: makes perfect sense
  <ubuntubhoy> without OEM's interested there is no point
  <k1l> ubuntubhoy: yep. and you have to show something before the even think about it
  <ubuntubhoy> yeah
  <ubuntubhoy> CES is the place to get them all at once
  <ubuntubhoy> and the demo vids were very promising
  <Robbilie> hope thats when they release the source
  <no_tech> just hope they dont get into patent game...  am looking forward to the CES outcome
  <popey> patience...
  <ubuntubhoy> I think release time will depend on any negotiations they get involved in
  <ubuntubhoy> they will play to the OEM's a certain amount
  <k1l> popey: patience is not the internets best attitude :)
  <Transhumanist> No, no, not patience, PATENTS
  <ubuntubhoy> popey: shot in the dark here, you wouldn't happen to have a rough idea of the system image size would you ?
  <Transhumanist> 42
  <popey> no
  <ubuntubhoy> didn't think so, but was worth an ask
  <AlanBell> Robbilie: I am just a random person making educated guesses
  <k1l> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/01/cnn-predict-ubuntu-phone-wont-make-inroads
  <k1l> i like the ideas at the market situation that are mentioned there.
  <Zaki-Sama> Hello here, i know the Ubuntu for phone has nothing to do with the Ubuntu for Android
  <Zaki-Sama> still i want to know, if it's possible (right now) to personaly install it on your mobile?
  <AlanBell> nope
  <Zaki-Sama> Ah okay, and how much phones have you tested it one this far?
  <Zaki-Sama> on' -e
  <AlanBell> we know they have put it on the old galaxy nexus
  <Zaki-Sama> (sorry my english is weak)
  <Zaki-Sama> AlanBell: yes i noticed that they were only showing it on a Galaxy nexus
  <Zaki-Sama> for all the handson videos
  <Zaki-Sama> on all the hands-on videos
  <k1l> the ubuntu4android was first tested and developed on the motorola atrix
  <k1l> but it was tested on several more devices in the meantime.
  <Zaki-Sama> k1l: i see okay, and when Mark Shuttleworth speaks of Native ubuntu mobile apps he means the ordinary *.deb apps for Mobile, or the HTML5 apps ?
  <popey> native means running on the bare metal, yes
  <Zaki-Sama> Awesome, so i guess Gaming on Ubuntu will be just great, it will be benefic for both desktop & mobile environement
  <popey> well games will need to be ported over
  <Zaki-Sama> Thank you AlanBell popey and k1l you were very helpful
  <popey> which depends on the developers
  <Zaki-Sama> popey:  i know that
  <popey> as with any app
  <Zaki-Sama> but UBUNTU is the FUTURE
  <k1l> yep. just think on that most mobile smartphones use a arm cpu
  <krabador> great to see an irc channel of ubuntu phone
  <krabador> have developers planning to support hardware of many devices, or just some couple of?
  <mesquka> Hi, I'm back
  