

In

> 学校から帰ってきて寝るまで **くらい** だ

  1. I was under the impression that くらい is an adverbial particle (副助詞), but here it's acting as a noun (名詞)? Can it also function as a noun, or is there an implicit noun after くらい and before だ that's being colloquially dropped (maybe something like 時間)?

  2. Here's my rough translation attempt:

> It's an approximation (くらいだ) of until (まで) I return home from school and
> sleep (学校から帰ってきて寝る).

This is pretty awkward :) I assume the sentence actually means:

> It's the rough timespan of from when I return from school until I go to
> sleep.

or

> It's roughly from when I return home from school until I go to sleep.

But if that's the case, why isn't there another から after 学校から帰ってきて? I'm not
sure if this is grammatical, but I'm tempted to parse the sentence as

  * **(学校から帰ってきて)から:** From (から) after I return home from (から) school
  * **(寝るまで)まで:** until (まで) I sleep
  * **くらいだ:** it's the approximation


CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-09-25T18:20:46.857
101120
2023-09-26T00:34:36.883
2023-09-25T21:32:56.370
7705
51280
question
grammar particle-から particle-くらい
Understanding から and くらい in 「学校から帰ってきて寝るまでくらいだ」


I had never heard the term 副助詞 before, but after skimming
[this](https://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/word/%E5%89%AF%E5%8A%A9%E8%A9%9E/) I can
see why you're confused. A general explanation of how particles classified
this way behave is likely beyond the scope of a single answer, and I'm not
sure I could write one anyway, so I'm going to try and give a simpler
intuitive explanation here.

Most of the 副助詞 in the link above modify meaning in the same way adverbs do,
but grammatically can behave like nouns or adverbs. For example:

> 疲れて倒れるほど走った ~= I ran until I collapsed from exhaustion
>
> 「どれぐらい走った？」「疲れて倒れるほどだ」 ~= "How much did you run?" "So much that I collapsed
> from exhaustion"

In both of these cases, `ほど` is providing information about the degree/extent
of the running, but in the former it grammatically behaves like an adverb and
in the latter it behaves like a noun. Note that time also behaves like this,
I.E. `2時間寝た` and `2時間だ` are both okay.

As for the sentence in your question, the previous sentence (which I'm
assuming is the one user3856370 has kindly provided) helps clarify a bit .

> ノートに名前を書ける時間は限られている。学校から帰ってきて寝るまでくらいだ
>
> ~= The time I can write my name in my notes is limited. It's only the period
> between when I come home from school and when I sleep.

In the second sentence `まで` and the `ぐらい` attached to it behave like nouns for
something like `((学校から帰ってきて寝るまで)ぐらい)だ`. Note that `ぐらい` is also used to
emphasize the low or minimal extent of something, which is where the "only" in
my English translation came from, although I'm not 100% sure about the
intended meaning in this case. See
[here](https://japanese.stackexchange.com/questions/2392/the-difference-
between-%e3%81%8f%e3%82%89%e3%81%84-and-%e3%81%bb%e3%81%a9-in-
hyperbole/2397#2397) for more information about this.

Edit: Not sure why it's `くらい` instead of `ぐらい` in the example, although the
pronunciation rules are not super clear (see
[here](http://www.nhk.or.jp/bunken/research/kotoba/20181201_3.html#:%7E:text=%E4%BD%93%E8%A8%80%E3%81%AB%E3%81%AF%E3%80%8C%E3%81%90%E3%82%89%E3%81%84%E3%80%8D%E3%81%8C,%E3%81%8C%E4%BB%98%E3%81%8F%E3%81%93%E3%81%A8%E3%82%82%E3%81%82%E3%82%8B%E3%80%82))


CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-09-25T22:14:20.127
101124
2023-09-25T22:19:56.283
2023-09-25T22:19:56.283
7705
7705
101120
answer


I offer this as an add-on to
[@Mindful](https://japanese.stackexchange.com/users/7705/)'s fine [answer
post](https://japanese.stackexchange.com/a/101124/5229).

> Can it [ _kurai_ ] also function as a noun?

The word くらい is both a noun and an adverbial particle. This originally was
only a noun (cited to at least the 700s), and derives from a compound of 座【くら】
("seat, place where something is put") + 居【ゐ】 ("being", noun form of verb ゐる,
modern いる), literally "being in one's seat" in reference to "the place where
one is sitting", extending to mean "one's place: one's position or rank", and
then extending further to mean "degree or extent of something". The adverbial
senses of "degree, amount, around about" first appear from the 1300s.

If you can read Japanese, more [here at
Kotobank](https://kotobank.jp/word/%E4%BD%8D-429901).

* * *

Separately:

> Edit: Not sure why it's `くらい` instead of `ぐらい` in the example, although the
> pronunciation rules are not super clear (see
> [here](http://www.nhk.or.jp/bunken/research/kotoba/20181201_3.html#:%7E:text=%E4%BD%93%E8%A8%80%E3%81%AB%E3%81%AF%E3%80%8C%E3%81%90%E3%82%89%E3%81%84%E3%80%8D%E3%81%8C,%E3%81%8C%E4%BB%98%E3%81%8F%E3%81%93%E3%81%A8%E3%82%82%E3%81%82%E3%82%8B%E3%80%82)

The specific pronunciation rules from the NHK:

>   1. 体言には「ぐらい」が付く。
>   2. 「この・その・あの・どの」には「くらい」が付く。
>   3. 用言や助動詞には、普通は「ぐらい」が付くが、「くらい」が付くこともある。
>

This is consistent with くらい being a noun: when appended to another noun, くらい
effectively becomes the second part of a compound noun, which (often) causes
[_rendaku_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rendaku) effects to appear. The
fluidity when coming after other types of words is probably a reflection of
this term's shifting usage, and how native speakers view the word in context.

In the sample sentence itself, the use of the くらい pronunciation could be an
indication that the speaker views this くらい as a standalone noun.


CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-09-25T23:44:35.953
101125
2023-09-25T23:44:35.953
5229
101120
answer


For reference, Martin states that these words, 'made', 'kurai', etc. have been
variously called 吸着語, 形式名詞 and 形式副詞 by Japanese grammarians.

Both 'made' and 'kurai/gurai' belong to two classes, one which is commonly
adnominalized, that is, modified by a preceeding sentence, and one where the
word functions as a 'restrictive' (Martin's term, for want of better), a word
that attaches to a noun and forms a single (noun) phrase---かぎり, 側, あたり etc.

When modified, e.g., S + made, the resulting phrase can function as a noun, as
in the example in the question; or it can act as an adverb, with or without
'ni':

ぴかぴか光るまで[に]靴を磨いた '[I] brushed [my] shoes till they were shiny'

Or it can be further adnominalized:

恐ろしいまでの執念 'an obsession that bordered on the terrifying'

頑固なまでの自立性 'self-reliance to the point of being obstinate'

'Kurai/gurai' should thus be treated as a 'restrictive', attached to the noun
'made', and meaning, appropriately as you translate, 'roughly'.


CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-09-26T00:34:36.883
101128
2023-09-26T00:34:36.883
40564
101120
answer