Special status of 話せる as a verb


I came across 話せる, as the potential form of 話す. However, 話せる can also be found
in [dictionaries](https://jisho.org/search/%E8%A9%B1%E3%81%9B%E3%82%8B) as a
verb on its own. It can even take inflections, and has its own potential form,
話せられる! I don't really understand what that could mean ( _to be able to be able
to speak?_ ).

In [this question](https://japanese.stackexchange.com/questions/5788/whats-
the-difference-
between-%e8%a9%b1%e3%81%9b%e3%82%8b-and-%e8%a9%b1%e3%81%99/5789#5789), it's
presented as merely a form of 話す, along with other potential forms. But there
I couldn't find a dictionary entry for 泳げる for example.

How come? Is it just a form that's important enough to have its own dictionary
entry, or is it a separate verb? Is it because it has a second meaning ( _2.
to be understanding; to be sensible​_ )?

Are there other verbs like this?




Yes, the dictionary breaks out this potential form exactly because it has a
secondary meaning (which is derived from the generic potential).

Good monolingual dictionaries also do this. For example:

**Sankoku**

> はな・せ る［話せる］｟自下一｠  
>  **①〈話／わけ〉が よくわかる。  
>  「あの人は━」**  
>  ②「話す」の可能形。

**Daijirin**

> はな・せる[3] 【話せる】  
>  （動サ下一）  
>  〔「話す」の可能動詞形から〕  
>  **話し相手とするに足りる。ものわかりがよい。「うちの親父は━・せる」**

**Shinmeikai**

> はな・せる③ 【話せる】  
>  （自下一）  
>  **〔「話す」の可能動詞形〕話や交渉の相手にする値うちがある。  
>  「話せる〔=思いやりがあり人の気持をよく理解してくれる〕人」**

**Daijisen**

> はな・せる【話せる】  
>  アクセント はなせ↓る  
>  **〘動サ下一〙《話すことができる意から》話し相手とするに足りる。物わかりがよい。話が わかる。「うちの校長は―・せる」**

**Meikyo**

> はな・せる【話せる】  
>  ①［自他下一］「話す」の可能形。  
>  「英語 が／を話せる」  
>  **②［自下一］（①から）話し相手とするに足りる。ものわかりがよい。融通がきく。  
>  「うちの親は話せる」**

**Nikkoku**

> はな・せる【話】  
>  〘サ下一〙 （「はなす（話）」の可能動詞）  
>  ①話すことができる。  
>  ＊吾輩は猫である（1905−06）〈夏目漱石〉三  
>  「話せないとすれば〈略〉切角の智識も無用の長物となる」  
>  **②話し相手とするに足りる。物わかりがよく融通がきく。  
>  ＊浄瑠璃・歌枕棣棠花合戦（1746）三  
>  「コリャ咄せるぞ、面白い」**

It also occurs for other potential forms that have gained a secondary meaning.
Here are Sankoku entries for a few such verbs:

> わら・える ［笑える］わらへる｟自下一｠  
>  ①自然に笑ってしまう。  
>  「ひとりでに笑えてくる」  
>  ②おもしろおかしい。  
>  「━話」  
>  ☞笑ける。

> な・ける ［泣ける］｟自下一｠  
>  〔泣くつもりでないのに、自然に〕泣いてしまう。  
>  「じんと泣けてくる・━話だ」

> い・える ［言える］いへる｟自下一｠  
>  ①〔俗〕そのとおりだ。  
>  「たしかに それは━」  
>  〔一九七四年に広まった ことば。「言えてる」の形は一九八〇年代に広まった〕  
>  ②「言う」の可能形。

It is natural that they would need to make a headword for the potential to be
able to write the extra meaning somewhere.

However, as far as the weird auto-conjugation list in jisho goes, that's just
junk. These potential-derived verbs are basically intransitive stative verbs,
meaning they behave something similar to できる, which you can't add られる or させる
to either. (Though, I think if you said 社長は話せられる it would borderline work as
keigo, though it's an odd thing to say due to the mixing of formality levels.)
It's basically just a semantic restriction that it's hard to stack
potential/passive/etc on top of something already stative, especially when
that state is something that is not easily changeable (like being a good
conversation partner).




There is nothing really special about 話せる. I cannot answer why the dictionary
you linked has a separate entry for it. It could be for the second definition,
which is somewhat different from the normal potential sense.

In general, potential forms (e.g. 話せる), passive forms (e.g. 話される), and
causative forms (e.g. 話させる) do have their own inflections. They all conjugate
as _ru_ -verbs (a.k.a. Group-II or _ichidan_ verbs). You definitely need their
_ta_ -forms (話せた/話された/話させた) and _te_ -forms (話せて/話されて/話させて) to express tense
or aspect.

The potential form of a potential form/verb makes no sense for the very reason
you thought 話せられる was strange. As a matter of fact, the following (order-
sensitive) combinations are all invalid.

  * potential-potential (x 話せられる)
  * potential-passive (x 話せられる) [see [this](https://japanese.stackexchange.com/q/29727/43676)]
  * potential-causative (x 話せさせる)
  * passive-potential (x 話されられる)
  * passive-passive (x 話されられる)
  * passive-causative (x 話されさせる) [see [this](https://japanese.stackexchange.com/q/86605/43676)]
  * causative-causative (x 話させさせる)

The causative-potential and causative-passive forms are identical. In the case
of 話す, they are both 話させられる (the causative form being 話させる). This is a valid
form and usually listed separately as causative-passive in conjugation tables.
It has its own _ta_ -form (話させられた) and _te_ -form (話させられて).

