How to parse上で話し合い


The below example sentence

> 論点を明らかにした上で話し合いをしないと、時間を無駄にする事になります。

is translated (by bunpro) as

> If we don't clarify the points of discussion beforehand, we will end up
> wasting time in the conversation

I don't see how we can get this translation. I'm parsing the grammar like
this, with an added 、.

  1. 論点を明らかにした上で、  
After we clarify the points of discussion

  2. 話し合いをしないと、  
if we don't have a discussion,

  3. 時間を無駄にする事になります。  
our time will be wasted!

How can we break down the grammar here to achieve the given English
translation. Are we doing something like the below? where the section in
[square braces] means "a preliminary discussion clarifying the points of the
meeting"? (This seems impossible to me)

> [論点を明らかにした上で話し合い] をしないと、時間を無駄にする事になります。

Or perhaps we're just supposed to




Think of this like the following English sentence

> If we don't discuss and clarify the points of discussion, our time will be
> wasted.

In English, the negation applies _forward_ negating "discuss and clarify".
But, in Japanese, negation applies _backwards_ in the same way.

Now, I've completely glossed over the matter of ...た上で. But this still fits
the same pattern.

> If we don't discuss after having clarified the points of discussion, our
> time will be wasted.

The nuance is quite a bit different, but the principle at hand here when
recasting into English is quite similar: You need to recognize how the
placement of negation in English and Japanese alters the intended meaning.

Often we can loosely translate Japanese in our head while reading it from left
to right. But, when we encounter a negation, we should re-evaluate how we've
already glossed what we read. (At some point, you'll read these and
intuitively understand without having to rethink it at all.) But this is the
reason you don't want to start your _translation_ with 論点を明らかにした上で but rather
with 話し合いをしない and to recognize that these are both _captured_ within the
_scope_ of と (a key point which I think you missed in your first attempt at
parsing these phrases).

So, in

> 論点を明らかにした上で話し合いをしないと、時間を無駄にする事になります。

The negation essentially negates what precedes it

> [論点を明らかにした上で話し合いをし]ないと、時間を無駄にする事になります。




Think of this like the following English sentence

> If we don't discuss and clarify the points of discussion, our time will be
> wasted.

In English, the negation applies _forward_ negating "discuss and clarify".
But, in Japanese, negation applies _backwards_ in the same way.

Now, I've completely glossed over the matter of ...た上で. But this still fits
the same pattern.

> If we don't discuss after having clarified the points of discussion, our
> time will be wasted.

The nuance is quite a bit different, but the principle at hand here when
recasting into English is quite similar: You need to recognize how the
placement of negation in English and Japanese alters the intended meaning.

Often we can loosely translate Japanese in our head while reading it from left
to right. But, when we encounter a negation, we should re-evaluate how we've
already glossed what we read. (At some point, you'll read these and
intuitively understand without having to rethink it at all.) But this is the
reason you don't want to start your _translation_ with 論点を明らかにした上で but rather
with 話し合いをしない and to recognize that these are both _captured_ within the
_scope_ of と (a key point which I think you missed in your first attempt at
parsing these phrases).

So, in

> 論点を明らかにした上で話し合いをしないと、時間を無駄にする事になります。

The negation essentially negates what precedes it

> [論点を明らかにした上で話し合いをし]ないと、時間を無駄にする事になります。

