Is 云 related to  in any way?


Depending on the kanji face the left element 言 in multi-element kanjis like 語
is sometimes depicted with 丶 instead of top 一 . It makes me think that the
same transformation occurs for : 云 changes to in multi-element kanjis. Is this
true or not?




As a fuller answer, no, 云 does not change to in multi-element kanji, and these
are not related characters.

[The character 云](http://www.unicode.org/cgi-
bin/GetUnihanData.pl?useutf8=true&codepoint=4E91) is a regular kanji / hanzi,
originally a pictogram for "cloud" that was later repurposed to spell the
homophonic word meaning "to say". ([Details on
Wiktionary.](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E4%BA%91#Glyph_origin))The 云
character is used as a component of the larger characters 雲 and 曇, and the 云
character gets somewhat compressed, but the strokes remain essentially the
same in shape and number.

[The character ](http://www.unicode.org/cgi-
bin/GetUnihanData.pl?codepoint=%F0%A0%AB%93) looks quite similar to 云,
depending on the font, but this is a very different character. appears to be
an alternative or ancestor form of the ㄊ character in [the Zhuyin script, also
known as bopomofo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bopomofo), used as an
alphabet to phonetically spell out Mandarin. ㄊ is essentially the letter T in
bopomofo, and it was derived from an old alternative form of the modern
character 突, read as _tū_ in Mandarin. (Details on Wiktionary [for
ㄊ](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E3%84%8A) and [for
突](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E7%AA%81).) [The chart
here](http://www.mandarintools.com/pychart.html) shows how to spell various
Mandarin sounds using various transcription systems. The sixth column, labeled
"Zhuyin Fuhao", contains the bopomofo spellings. The table is in alphabetical
order. Scroll down to the section starting with `t` and you will see the ㄊ
character used to spell all of the initial `t` sounds.




「云」and「」are not related.

* * *

# 「云{うん}」

# `Ａ１  
[商](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shang_dynasty)  
[甲](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle_bone_script)  
[![enter image description
here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/bLNLy.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/bLNLy.png)  
[乙](http://xiaoxue.iis.sinica.edu.tw/yanbian/Reference/JiaguwenReference)12  
[合集21021](http://www.guoxuedashi.com/jgwhj/?bhfl=1&bh=21021&jgwfl=)``Ａ２  
商  
甲  
[![enter image description
here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/3tFVG.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/3tFVG.png)  
[前](http://xiaoxue.iis.sinica.edu.tw/yanbian/Reference/JiaguwenReference)6.43.4  
[合集17072](http://www.guoxuedashi.com/jgwhj/?bhfl=1&bh=17072&jgwfl=)``Ａ３  
[春秋](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring_and_Autumn_period)  
[金](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_bronze_inscriptions)  
[![enter image description
here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/soGUA.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/soGUA.png)  
姑發劍  
[集成11718](http://www.guoxuedashi.com/yzjwjc/?bh=11718)``Ａ４  
[楚](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chu_\(state\))  
[簡](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bamboo_and_wooden_slips)  
[![enter image description
here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/dtLTH.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/dtLTH.png)  
[郭・緇](http://xiaoxue.iis.sinica.edu.tw/yanbian/Reference/ChuwenziReference)・35  
``Ａ５  
  
[古文](https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%8F%A4%E6%96%87)  
[![enter image description
here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/xa8JQ.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/xa8JQ.png)  
[說文解字](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuowen_Jiezi)  
``Ａ６  
今  
[楷](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regular_script)  
[![enter image description
here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/AFjra.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/AFjra.png)  
  
`

The specific construction of「云」is not universally agreed upon, but there is
generally consensus that it contains a phonetic component that originally
looked something like

# `Ｂ  
商  
甲  
[![enter image description
here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/336vv.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/336vv.png)  
[京津](http://xiaoxue.iis.sinica.edu.tw/yanbian/Reference/JiaguwenReference)4726  
[合集21324](http://www.guoxuedashi.com/jgwhj/?bhfl=1&bh=21324&jgwfl=)`

If「云」contains a picture of a _cloud_ , then it is said the phonetic
component「Ｂ」was the original shape of the cloud (cf. resemblance to「Ａ３」) and
thus doubles as a semantic component. According to this theory, additional
markings were added on to「Ｂ」to form「云」, and in「Ａ１」, these markings look like a
semantic component「上」.

> 「上」was originally in the shape of「二」; the vertical stroke was added later,
> possibly to differentiate the character from the extremely similar shape of
> the number「二」.

「Ｂ」is a phonetic component in several characters, e.g.:

  * 「旬{じゅん}」- originally was extremely similar or identical to「Ｂ」; if「Ｂ」was the original shape of「云」, this explains why markings were added to「云」to differentiate it from「旬」.

# `Ｃ１  
商  
甲  
[![enter image description
here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/CZRHI.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/CZRHI.png)  
[佚](http://xiaoxue.iis.sinica.edu.tw/yanbian/Reference/JiaguwenReference)29  
[合集16790](http://www.guoxuedashi.com/jgwhj/?bhfl=1&bh=16790&jgwfl=)``Ｃ２  
[西周](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Zhou)  
金  
[![enter image description
here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/DT7yJ.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/DT7yJ.png)  
新邑鼎  
[集成2682](http://www.guoxuedashi.com/yzjwjc/?bh=2682&jgwfl=)``Ｃ３  
楚  
簡  
[![enter image description
here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/ogGq3.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/ogGq3.png)  
[{{kr:包}}2](http://xiaoxue.iis.sinica.edu.tw/yanbian/Reference/ChuwenziReference)・183  
``Ｃ４  
[秦](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qin_dynasty)  
簡  
[![enter image description
here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/bvZvf.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/bvZvf.png)  
[睡](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuihudi_Qin_bamboo_texts)・[日乙](http://xiaoxue.iis.sinica.edu.tw/yanbian/Reference/QinwenziReference)46  
``Ｃ５  
今  
楷  
[![enter image description
here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/65rw6.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/65rw6.png)  
  
`

Semantic「日」was added later (「Ｃ２」onwards), and「Ｂ」was corrupted
into「勹」(「Ｃ３」onwards).

  * 「軍{くん}」- from semantic「車」( _war chariot_ ).

# `Ｄ１  
[戰國](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warring_States_period)  
金  
[![enter image description
here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/SoG2B.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/SoG2B.png)  
燕右軍矛  
[集成11484](http://www.guoxuedashi.com/yzjwjc/?bh=11484&jgwfl=)``Ｄ２  
秦  
簡  
[![enter image description
here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/4UDxp.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/4UDxp.png)  
[睡・雜](http://xiaoxue.iis.sinica.edu.tw/yanbian/Reference/QinwenziReference)8  
``Ｄ３  
今  
楷  
[![enter image description
here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/nIRCv.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/nIRCv.png)  
  
`

「Ｂ」was later corrupted into「冖」(「Ｄ２」onwards).

* * *

# 「」 ([
_Zhengzhang_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconstructions_of_Old_Chinese#Zhengzhang_\(1981%E2%80%931995\))
[_OC_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Chinese):[「毓」]{/*luɡ/}·[「」]{/*duːd/}·[「㐬」]{/*ru/})

> Note: **/l/** , **/d/** , and **/r/** are related, being all [alveolar
> consonants](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alveolar_consonant).

「毓」depicts a _woman_ (「每」, which was originally「女」or「母」with an extra marking
near the top) _giving birth_ to a _child_ 「」(upside-down「子」) along with the
release of amniotic fluid (now looking similar to「川」).

# `Ｅ１  
商  
甲  
[![enter image description
here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/Oca5g.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/Oca5g.png)  
[甲](http://xiaoxue.iis.sinica.edu.tw/yanbian/Reference/JiaguwenReference)722  
[合集27320](http://www.guoxuedashi.com/jgwhj/?bhfl=1&bh=27320&jgwfl=)``Ｅ２  
西周  
金  
[![enter image description
here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/hqEjx.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/hqEjx.png)  
班簋  
[集成4341](http://www.guoxuedashi.com/yzjwjc/?bh=4341&jgwfl=)``Ｅ３  
  
[篆](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_seal_script)  
[![enter image description
here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/6undx.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/6undx.png)  
說文[或體](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variant_Chinese_character)  
``Ｅ４  
今  
楷  
[![enter image description
here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/UTv3l.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/UTv3l.png)  
  
`

> 「毓」is now replaced by「育」, which is a later construction. 「育{いく}」is composed
> from semantic「毓」>「」and phonetic「肉{にく}」.

  * 「」is simplified from「毓」by removing everything except the top-right component.

    * 「[]{/*luɡ/}」originally represented the same word as「毓」. For example, see [《甲骨文合集》27042](http://www.guoxuedashi.com/jgwhj/?bhfl=1&bh=27042&jgwfl=), where「多」is interpreted as「毓多」meaning _to birth many children_.

# `Ｆ  
商  
甲  
[![enter image description
here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/rqucm.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/rqucm.png)  
  
合集27042`

    * 「[毓]{/*luɡ/}」>「[]{/*duːd/}」was a semantic extension utilising the simplified「毓」as a phonetic loan for「[突]{/*duːd/}」( _sudden/unexpected_ , cf.「[突然]{とつぜん}」), as recorded by [Xu Shen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xu_Shen), the author of [_Shuowen Jiezi_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuowen_Jiezi).

> # `Ｇ１  
>  
> 篆  
> [![enter image description
> here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/fVowO.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/fVowO.png)  
> 說文解字  
>  ``Ｇ２  
> 今  
> 楷  
> [![enter image description
> here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/fTScR.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/fTScR.png)  
>  
>  `
>
> _Upside down child_ 「倒子」was "creatively reinterpreted" as
> _[unfilial](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filial_piety) child_「不孝子」. Quote
> from _Shuowen_ :
>

>> **「，不順忽出也。从到子。《易》曰：『突如其來如［，焚如死如棄如。］』不孝子突出，不容於內也。」**

>>

>> 「」 _, antagonistic, sudden, and unexpected. From upside-down_ 「子」 _. Quote
from[I Ching](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Ching): "Unexpected/antagonistic
[actions] invites [burning, death, abandonment as punishment]". Unfilial
children act unexpectedly with hostility and disobedience, and are not
tolerated by their own kin._

    * 「」also represents an _upside-down child_ in several other characters, e.g.「棄」.

> 「棄」was originally a depiction of a _baby_ 「子」being put into a _basket_ 「」to
> be abandoned ( _two hands_ 「廾」).
>
> # `Ｈ１  
> 商  
> 甲  
> [![enter image description
> here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/KyZVy.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/KyZVy.png)  
>
> [後](http://xiaoxue.iis.sinica.edu.tw/yanbian/Reference/JiaguwenReference)2.21.14  
> [合集8451](http://www.guoxuedashi.com/jgwhj/?bhfl=1&bh=8451&jgwfl=)``Ｈ２  
> 秦  
> 簡  
> [![enter image description
> here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/zVQA4.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/zVQA4.png)  
>
> [睡・法](http://xiaoxue.iis.sinica.edu.tw/yanbian/Reference/QinwenziReference)167  
>  ``Ｈ３  
> 今  
> 楷  
> [![enter image description
> here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/E0lDi.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/E0lDi.png)  
>  
>  `
>
> In「棄」,「子」was turned upside-down into「」and「」was corrupted into「丗」(or
> similar;「Ｈ２」onwards), while「廾」was corrupted into「木」(「Ｈ３」).
>
> * * *
>
> Note:「」as an individual character is now written as「其」, and the original
> word for _basket_ is now written as「箕」.

  * 「㐬」is the right hand side of「毓」, and did not originally exist as an individual character.

    * The right hand side of「[毓]{/*luɡ/}」was later reinterpreted as a phonetic component「[㐬]{/*ru/}」.
    * 「㐬」may also be viewed as a semantic component meaning _flow (e.g. of water) > to pass through_ in some characters, extended from the picture of the _upside-down baby_ and amniotic fluid flowing out of the mother. The most prominent character with this component is「[流]{/*ru/}」； cf.「[流産]{りゅ​うざん}」( _miscarriage_ ).

# `Ｊ１  
戰國  
金  
[![enter image description
here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/PG8Ze.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/PG8Ze.png)  
⿰妾子壺  
[集成9734](http://www.guoxuedashi.com/yzjwjc/?bh=9734&jgwfl=)``Ｊ２  
楚  
簡  
[![enter image description
here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/t5DYQ.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/t5DYQ.png)  
[上・性](http://xiaoxue.iis.sinica.edu.tw/yanbian/Reference/ChuwenziReference)・19  
``Ｊ３  
秦  
簡  
[![enter image description
here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/7Cr95.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/7Cr95.png)  
[睡・封](http://xiaoxue.iis.sinica.edu.tw/yanbian/Reference/QinwenziReference)29  
``Ｊ４  
今  
楷  
[![enter image description
here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/z4nBv.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/z4nBv.png)  
  
`

* * *

# References:

  * 季旭昇《說文新證》
  * [小學堂](http://xiaoxue.iis.sinica.edu.tw/)
  * [國學大師](http://www.guoxuedashi.com/)

