Meaning of a verb + てまで


I found this construction in a couple of places:

> 母を失ってまでモチベーションが続かない
>
> 君の歌詞を盗んでまで、彼女が唇の動きを真似るメリットがない
>
> 人を殺してまで得られる自由

Focusing on the third example, the subtitles is "A freedom that I can attain
through murder", and automatic translation (which I know can be unrealiable,
but in this case confirms the subtitles) is "Freedom that can be gained by
killing people".

I know this construction [means](https://jlptsensei.com/learn-japanese-
grammar/%E3%81%A6%E3%81%BE%E3%81%A7-te-made-meaning/) "even; will go as far as
to", and I found
[this](https://japanese.stackexchange.com/questions/29101/meaning-of-
verb-%E3%81%A6%E3%81%BE%E3%81%A7?rq=1) question in which the structure is
explained as weighing the worth of actions; trying to read the structure
itself, I think it means "Going to the point of doing... to", like "Going to
the point of killing people, to be able to get one's freedom".

Using the worth angle from that answer, should I read it as "A freedom that
can be attained going as far as killing people", or maybe (with similar
meaning, but more stress on worth) "A freedom that is worth killing people to
be able to obtain", and the translation given above adapt this in a more
natural English wording?

Following this reasoning, the other examples would mean:

> 母を失ってまでモチベーションが続かない: My motivation can't keep going as far as to take the
> mother's body (so going on with the motivation isn't worth the death of the
> mother).
>
> 君の歌詞を盗んでまで、彼女が唇の動きを真似るメリットがない: There is no gain in her copying the motion of
> the lips, to the point of stealing your lyrics (like "What's the point of
> stealing your lyrics just to lip sync them?"; as context: character A wrote
> lyrics, character B published video with lip synch - but no audio - of those
> lyrics without A knowing, and the speaker is speaking about that).

These were from a book, so no subtitles to rely on.

So, can the part with てまで be seen as a (potential) cost to get the following
part, like stealing lyrics to lip sync (which seems absurd to the character,
hence the negative); and freedom at the cost of killing people?




I think overall your understanding is correct.

  * 人殺ししてまで得られる自由

means, as you understand it correctly, _freedom attained by (going as far as)
committing a murder_ (or several murders).

  * 君の歌詞を盗んでまで、彼女が唇の動きを真似るメリットがない

is easier to understand if you parse it as **(** 君の歌詞を盗んでまで、彼女が唇の動きを真似る **)**
メリットがない so that it would translate as _There is no merit of copying her lip
motion by (going as far as) stealing your lyrics_ * (although I cannot clearly
make sense of it).

In these, Aしてまで can be understood as meaning doing A is a (potential)
**large** cost.

A direct example would be

  * 1000円払ってまでその映画を見たくない

means _I don't want to see the movie by paying as much as 1000 yean (e.g.
because it is available on amazon prime)_.

* * *

On the other hand, without further context, I'd understand the first example
as _even after my mother's death, I cannot keep the motivation_. It could mean
_by going as far as losing mom_ if doing so entails something good for the
speaker's motivation. But it looks less likely.

The usage still has some sense of "limit" in common with the other two, but
母を失って is not something that is done hoping for some benefits.

A less ambiguous example is:

  * 70過ぎてまで働きたくない _I don't want to work even after the age of 70_




I think overall your understanding is correct.

  * 人殺ししてまで得られる自由

means, as you understand it correctly, _freedom attained by (going as far as)
committing a murder_ (or several murders).

  * 君の歌詞を盗んでまで、彼女が唇の動きを真似るメリットがない

is easier to understand if you parse it as **(** 君の歌詞を盗んでまで、彼女が唇の動きを真似る **)**
メリットがない so that it would translate as _There is no merit of copying her lip
motion by (going as far as) stealing your lyrics_ * (although I cannot clearly
make sense of it).

In these, Aしてまで can be understood as meaning doing A is a (potential)
**large** cost.

A direct example would be

  * 1000円払ってまでその映画を見たくない

means _I don't want to see the movie by paying as much as 1000 yean (e.g.
because it is available on amazon prime)_.

* * *

On the other hand, without further context, I'd understand the first example
as _even after my mother's death, I cannot keep the motivation_. It could mean
_by going as far as losing mom_ if doing so entails something good for the
speaker's motivation. But it looks less likely.

The usage still has some sense of "limit" in common with the other two, but
母を失って is not something that is done hoping for some benefits.

A less ambiguous example is:

  * 70過ぎてまで働きたくない _I don't want to work even after the age of 70_

