ば conditional - combinations of action/state verb and same/different subject


The following sentences are ば conditional sentences, with combinations of
action/state verb and same/different subjects. Which of these are correct /
wrong, and why?

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## Volition

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> 1 Action verb + same subject  
>  (私が) **卒業すれば** 、(私が)彼女と結婚するつもりです。

> 2 State verb + different subjects  
>  彼女が **希望すれば** 、(私が)彼女と結婚するつもりです。

> 3 State verb + same subject  
>  (私が) **卒業できれば** 、(私が)彼女と結婚するつもりです。

> 4 Action verb + different subjects  
>  彼女が **卒業すれば** 、(私が)彼女と結婚するつもりです。

Sentence 1 was said to be wrong while sentence 2 was said to be correct by my
teacher.

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## Requests

* * *

> 5 田中: 山下さんが来られれば( **山下さん** が)知らせてください  
>  **山下** : はい

> 6 田中: 山下さんが来られれば( **竹内さん** が)知らせてください  
>  **竹内** : はい

Edit: _In both cases, 来られれば is in potential and conditional form._




> 見たければ見なさい = もし、あなたが見たければ、「（あなたが）見なさい」と私は許可します（私は命令します）。

is correct although the target of the observation is the subject of the main
clause (like in sentence 5). Could you explain why this sentence is correct
and sentence 5 is wrong?

Who is the observer of the conditional clause "（あなたが）見たければ(If you'd like to
see it.)" ? Strictly speaking, I(私) don't care whether you(あなた） want to see it
or not. On the other hand, you know (=you off course can observe whether you
want to do or not.) Then the observer of this conditional clause is "you".

Main clause of this sentence is an imperative sentence, so the subject of main
clause is "私(I)."

Thus the subject of conditional clause and main clause are different.

* * *

Sentence 2 (in my question), as you have said, is okay. However the sentence
with 彼女が希望すれば、彼女は。。。つもりです may sound unnatural for a different reason, that つもり
isn't really used for other people. So I am not totally convinced that it is
unnatural because of a wrong use of ば... What do you think of sentences 3 and
4 in my question, which use 私。。。つもりです。

2 State verb + different subjects 彼女が希望すれば、(私が)彼女と結婚するつもりです。

I observe whether she wants to marry me or not, and if I get to be aware that
she wants to marry me, then I'll marry her.

This sentence is natural.

However the following is unnatural. 彼女が希望すれば、彼女は私と結婚するつもりです。 This is
unnatural.

If the sentence is "彼女は私と結婚するつもりです。そのように彼女は希望しています。", then this sentence is
natural.

In short, the main clause "彼女は私と結婚するつもりだ" depends on the conditional clause
"彼女が希望すれば". If the conditional clause"彼女が希望すれば" is true, then the main clause
"彼女は私と結婚するつもりだ" get to be active (by the subject of the main clause.) So If
you can control whether the conditional clause gets to be true or not, "if-
then" sentence doesn't make sense.

I'm now aware that this matter doesn't only depend on the grammar but the
meaning (whether it make sense or not).

3 State verb + same subject (私が)卒業できれば、(私が)彼女と結婚するつもりです。=私が卒業できれば、私は彼女と結婚します。
In this context, "結婚するつもりです" is equal to "結婚します," even "結婚します" shows strong
will than "結婚するつもりです。"

4 Action verb + different subjects 彼女が卒業すれば、(私が)彼女と結婚するつもりです。

OK

* * *

I have never been a Japanese language teacher but I've been an engineer for
forty years. I analyzed this issue as the following way.

The sentence No5 is somewhat unnatural.

> 5 田中: 山下さんが来られれば、(山下さんが)知らせてください  
>  山下: はい

> 5-improved, natural 田中:山下さんが来られるのであれば、（山下さんが）私に知らせてください。 山下: はい

So we have to focus on the phrase "山下さんが来られれば.=山下さんが来られる(action)のであれば、or
山下さんが来られた(state)のであれば"

"山下さんが来られる(action)のであれば"="If 山下さん comes here", "（山下さんが）私に知らせてください。" = "let me
know it" is natural.

I think there could be the following rule.

  1. The observer of the conditional clause is A.
  2. The subject of the conditional clause is B.
  3. The verb of the conditional clause is a state verb. (Thus the observer is necessary.)
  4. The subject of the main clause is A.
  5. If the subject of the main clause (A) is equal to the subject of the conditional clause (B), the sentence is unnatural, wrong.

> 彼女(B)が希望すれば(the observer of this conditional clause is
> 私(A))、私(A)は彼女と結婚するつもりです。  
>  This sentence is OK.

> 彼女(B)が希望すれば(the observer of this conditional clause is
> A)、彼女(B)は私（A)と結婚するつもりです。  
>  This sentence is unnatural and terrible!

Example No.5

> 5 "山下さんが来られれば(山下さんが)知らせてください" is unnatural or wrong.

"山下さんが来られれば" The subject of this conditional clause is 山下さん, and the observer
of this conditional clause is 田中 (not 山下さん who is the terget of this
observation.)、  
"来られれば" is somewhat ambiguous, but if a reader feels that it means "come into
the picture" or "appear on the scene," then it is semantically the state verb.
Then here the target of A's observation (or the subject of condition clause
with state verb) is the subject of main clause, it's unnatural (or wrong).

"(山下さんが)知らせてください。" ="Hey Mr.Yamashita! Let me know it!" The (semantical)
subject of main clause is 山下さん.

Then totally No.5 is unnatural.

* * *

EXAMPLE NO.6

> 6 田中: 山下さんが来られれば(竹内さんが)知らせてください  
>  竹内: はい  
>  For me, this one is OK.

It can be improved as the following.

> 6-improved 田中：山下さんが会場に来られたら、（竹内さんが私に）知らせてください。  
>  竹内: はい




> 見たければ見なさい = もし、あなたが見たければ、「（あなたが）見なさい」と私は許可します（私は命令します）。

is correct although the target of the observation is the subject of the main
clause (like in sentence 5). Could you explain why this sentence is correct
and sentence 5 is wrong?

Who is the observer of the conditional clause "（あなたが）見たければ(If you'd like to
see it.)" ? Strictly speaking, I(私) don't care whether you(あなた） want to see it
or not. On the other hand, you know (=you off course can observe whether you
want to do or not.) Then the observer of this conditional clause is "you".

Main clause of this sentence is an imperative sentence, so the subject of main
clause is "私(I)."

Thus the subject of conditional clause and main clause are different.

* * *

Sentence 2 (in my question), as you have said, is okay. However the sentence
with 彼女が希望すれば、彼女は。。。つもりです may sound unnatural for a different reason, that つもり
isn't really used for other people. So I am not totally convinced that it is
unnatural because of a wrong use of ば... What do you think of sentences 3 and
4 in my question, which use 私。。。つもりです。

2 State verb + different subjects 彼女が希望すれば、(私が)彼女と結婚するつもりです。

I observe whether she wants to marry me or not, and if I get to be aware that
she wants to marry me, then I'll marry her.

This sentence is natural.

However the following is unnatural. 彼女が希望すれば、彼女は私と結婚するつもりです。 This is
unnatural.

If the sentence is "彼女は私と結婚するつもりです。そのように彼女は希望しています。", then this sentence is
natural.

In short, the main clause "彼女は私と結婚するつもりだ" depends on the conditional clause
"彼女が希望すれば". If the conditional clause"彼女が希望すれば" is true, then the main clause
"彼女は私と結婚するつもりだ" get to be active (by the subject of the main clause.) So If
you can control whether the conditional clause gets to be true or not, "if-
then" sentence doesn't make sense.

I'm now aware that this matter doesn't only depend on the grammar but the
meaning (whether it make sense or not).

3 State verb + same subject (私が)卒業できれば、(私が)彼女と結婚するつもりです。=私が卒業できれば、私は彼女と結婚します。
In this context, "結婚するつもりです" is equal to "結婚します," even "結婚します" shows strong
will than "結婚するつもりです。"

4 Action verb + different subjects 彼女が卒業すれば、(私が)彼女と結婚するつもりです。

OK

* * *

I have never been a Japanese language teacher but I've been an engineer for
forty years. I analyzed this issue as the following way.

The sentence No5 is somewhat unnatural.

> 5 田中: 山下さんが来られれば、(山下さんが)知らせてください  
>  山下: はい

> 5-improved, natural 田中:山下さんが来られるのであれば、（山下さんが）私に知らせてください。 山下: はい

So we have to focus on the phrase "山下さんが来られれば.=山下さんが来られる(action)のであれば、or
山下さんが来られた(state)のであれば"

"山下さんが来られる(action)のであれば"="If 山下さん comes here", "（山下さんが）私に知らせてください。" = "let me
know it" is natural.

I think there could be the following rule.

  1. The observer of the conditional clause is A.
  2. The subject of the conditional clause is B.
  3. The verb of the conditional clause is a state verb. (Thus the observer is necessary.)
  4. The subject of the main clause is A.
  5. If the subject of the main clause (A) is equal to the subject of the conditional clause (B), the sentence is unnatural, wrong.

> 彼女(B)が希望すれば(the observer of this conditional clause is
> 私(A))、私(A)は彼女と結婚するつもりです。  
>  This sentence is OK.

> 彼女(B)が希望すれば(the observer of this conditional clause is
> A)、彼女(B)は私（A)と結婚するつもりです。  
>  This sentence is unnatural and terrible!

Example No.5

> 5 "山下さんが来られれば(山下さんが)知らせてください" is unnatural or wrong.

"山下さんが来られれば" The subject of this conditional clause is 山下さん, and the observer
of this conditional clause is 田中 (not 山下さん who is the terget of this
observation.)、  
"来られれば" is somewhat ambiguous, but if a reader feels that it means "come into
the picture" or "appear on the scene," then it is semantically the state verb.
Then here the target of A's observation (or the subject of condition clause
with state verb) is the subject of main clause, it's unnatural (or wrong).

"(山下さんが)知らせてください。" ="Hey Mr.Yamashita! Let me know it!" The (semantical)
subject of main clause is 山下さん.

Then totally No.5 is unnatural.

* * *

EXAMPLE NO.6

> 6 田中: 山下さんが来られれば(竹内さんが)知らせてください  
>  竹内: はい  
>  For me, this one is OK.

It can be improved as the following.

> 6-improved 田中：山下さんが会場に来られたら、（竹内さんが私に）知らせてください。  
>  竹内: はい

