Difference between さえ、でさえ


Could you explain to me the difference between さえ and でさえ?

Example:

> そんなこと、子ども **でさえ** 知っている。

Can I use さえ instead of でさえ in this sentence?

> そんなこと、子ども **さえ** 知っている。




Grammatically, "で" can only be used before "さえ" when "でさえ" comes after a noun.
"で" cannot be used after a verb. E.g. たべさえすれば is OK but たべでさえすれば is NG.
Semantically, "で" adds emphasis or is filler.

My very good source: <http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/grammar/even>

[edit-append] I used google to search for "子どもでさえ" and "子どもさえ". Statistically,
"子どもでさえ" is overwhelmingly more frequent. I think it is because "子供でさえ" is a
fixed expression just as the English expression "Even a child ..." is a fixed
expression to express how easy/simple/knowable/etc. something is. When used
for that meaning, "子供さえ" would therefore sound odd.




Grammatically, "で" can only be used before "さえ" when "でさえ" comes after a noun.
"で" cannot be used after a verb. E.g. たべさえすれば is OK but たべでさえすれば is NG.
Semantically, "で" adds emphasis or is filler.

My very good source: <http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/grammar/even>

[edit-append] I used google to search for "子どもでさえ" and "子どもさえ". Statistically,
"子どもでさえ" is overwhelmingly more frequent. I think it is because "子供でさえ" is a
fixed expression just as the English expression "Even a child ..." is a fixed
expression to express how easy/simple/knowable/etc. something is. When used
for that meaning, "子供さえ" would therefore sound odd.

