The humble （謙譲語） prefix 愚 when used to refer to own family members


I read about kenjougo
([here](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Japanese/Grammar/Honorifics) and
[here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honorific_speech_in_Japanese#Humble_language))
and understood that it is a type of honorific speech used to lower your rank
below the person you are speaking to when you describe the actions of yourself
or somebody within your in-group, be it your family or company.

The words I'm interested in:

  * Husband/wife: 愚夫・愚妻
  * Son/daughter: 愚息・愚女
  * Siblings: 愚兄・愚弟・愚姉・愚妹

Considering that humble speech is used when lowering your rank below somebody
else, using the prefix 愚 when talking to somebody within your in-group can
probably only be an insult. However, when the person in question hears you
refer to them with 愚○, even in a situation that requires humble speech,
doesn't that sound rather insulting as well?

  1. Is the humble prefix 愚 usually used for family members in situations requiring humble speech or is it mainly used to make fun of family members?
  2. Is there some other less "insulting" way to humbly refer to your in-group members?




You wrote "when talking to somebody within your in-group can probably only be
an insult", but it's not.

Being spoken to with humble speech per se means it's no longer the in-group
**in its own** relationship (in other words, it can in another relationship).
Whether one belongs to the in-group or out is relative and depends on cases.
So it still works as a humble speech, though, of course, since it's abrupt and
unusual to use humble speech among close relationship, it would sound joking.

So, nobody takes it as an insult as long as they have common sense, though 愚◯
series are a dated expression anyway.

As for paraphrases, I come up with せがれ for your son but I don't for the rest.




You wrote "when talking to somebody within your in-group can probably only be
an insult", but it's not.

Being spoken to with humble speech per se means it's no longer the in-group
**in its own** relationship (in other words, it can in another relationship).
Whether one belongs to the in-group or out is relative and depends on cases.
So it still works as a humble speech, though, of course, since it's abrupt and
unusual to use humble speech among close relationship, it would sound joking.

So, nobody takes it as an insult as long as they have common sense, though 愚◯
series are a dated expression anyway.

As for paraphrases, I come up with せがれ for your son but I don't for the rest.

