The difference between くらい and ほど in hyperbole


The following two sentences, I believe, are grammatically okay, however I'm
not sure on how they differ in nuance.

> もう[歩]{ある}けない **ほど** [疲]{つか}れた！  
>  もう歩けない **くらい** 疲れた！

Additionally, why is it that:

> [死]{し}ぬ **ほど** [恥]{は}ずかしい

is grammatically okay but

> 死ぬ **くらい** 恥ずかしい

is not?

(However 死に **たい** くらい恥ずかしい is okay.)

From looking at this, it seems くらい cannot show volition. Is there a logical
reason for this that I'm not seeing?




OK, I think I've got something here. Essentially, the difference boils down to
the following:

  * ほど expresses an upper bound; it is often emphatic and therefore expresses surprise
  * くらい expresses a lower bound; the level indicated may be exceeded

Let's look at 歩けない { ほど／くらい } 疲れた. Diagrammed, it looks like this:

![Comparison of hodo and kurai](https://i.stack.imgur.com/Ekmuz.png)

Both ほど and くらい express the level of tiredness marked by the red dot (not
being able to walk at all). But ほど focuses on the left side of that dot, and
it emphasizes the fact that the level of fatigue exceeds both the level where
your legs get a little wobbly (first dot) and the level where you can't keep
your balance well (second dot). But ほど does not exceed the red dot.

With くらい, on the other hand, the scale starts at the red dot, and may even go
higher to the last dot (not even being able to stand up). The surprise
expressed by ほど is mostly absent, and the sentence is more along the lines of
a simple statement of fact.

### Places where ほど can be used, but not くらい

[This page](http://www.geocities.jp/niwasaburoo/53teidohikaku.html#53.1) has a
section with some examples along these lines. Let's look at a few in light of
the rules derived from the above diagram:

> ヨットが買える **ほど** お金持ちではないよ。 He's not so rich that he can buy a yacht.
>
> 僕のお小遣いで買えない **ほど** 高くはなかった。 It wasn't so expensive that I couldn't buy it
> with my allowance.
>
> どうしても結婚したいという **ほど** 愛してはいなかった。 She didn't love him so much that she wanted
> to marry him at all costs.

The common thread running through these sentences is that the level marked by
ほど is not reached. (All of the sentences could be reordered to fit the pattern
"B may be true, but not to the extent A.") In other words, the actual level
lies to the left of the red dot on the above diagram. Because it's on the left
side, only ほど can be used.

### Places where くらい can be used, but not ほど

From the same page:

> ここに入っちゃいけないこと **ぐらい** 知ってるでしょう？ You do at least know that you can't come in
> here, right?
>
> 入賞した **ぐらい** で喜んではいけない。 You shouldn't be happy just over winning an award.
>
> 休みの日でも警備員をおく **ぐらい** できるだろう。 We should be able to at least station some
> guards on days off.

In all of these sentences, くらい (sometimes ぐらい; the difference was [covered in
this question](https://japanese.stackexchange.com/questions/433)) marks a
minimum level. So now we're dealing with the portion of the diagram to the
right of the red dot. Thus, only くらい is allowed.

### Effect on hyperbole

So based on what we've seen so far, why are these two different?

> 死ぬ **ほど** さびしい so lonely one could die _(not really serious)_
>
> 死ぬ **くらい** さびしい so lonely one could die _(serious, possibly suicidal)_

In statements like these, ほど, because it covers the left end of the scale,
implies that you haven't reached the red dot yet, but it feels like you're
getting close. くらい is different. With くらい, you're at the red dot and are on
the way to more extreme levels (toward the right end of the scale). 死ぬくらい thus
conveys more immediacy and reality than 死ぬほど, which can be used "lightly" and
without really meaning it.

This contrast between くらい's immediacy and reality and ほど's figurativeness
appears in sentences like this:

> 死ぬ **くらい** ならなんでもする。 If I were at the point of death, I would do anything.

ほど doesn't work nearly as well here, because the setting for this sentence is
that the speaker has a life-and-death choice and is literally staring death in
the face. This is solidly on the right end of the scale, so くらい is the best
option.

From this we can also explain the unnatural feeling from your example
fragment:

> 死ぬ **ほど** 恥ずかしい so embarrassed one could die _(playful exaggeration)_
>
> 死ぬ **くらい** 恥ずかしい so embarrassed one could die _(weird)_

The second sounds weird because, unlike loneliness, which can and does lead to
suicide, embarrassment is an unusual reason for dying. But as you correctly
pointed out, 死にたいくらい is fine here. This is because feeling like one wants to
die after being embarrassed is common and quite different from actually
carrying out that feeling.




OK, I think I've got something here. Essentially, the difference boils down to
the following:

  * ほど expresses an upper bound; it is often emphatic and therefore expresses surprise
  * くらい expresses a lower bound; the level indicated may be exceeded

Let's look at 歩けない { ほど／くらい } 疲れた. Diagrammed, it looks like this:

![Comparison of hodo and kurai](https://i.stack.imgur.com/Ekmuz.png)

Both ほど and くらい express the level of tiredness marked by the red dot (not
being able to walk at all). But ほど focuses on the left side of that dot, and
it emphasizes the fact that the level of fatigue exceeds both the level where
your legs get a little wobbly (first dot) and the level where you can't keep
your balance well (second dot). But ほど does not exceed the red dot.

With くらい, on the other hand, the scale starts at the red dot, and may even go
higher to the last dot (not even being able to stand up). The surprise
expressed by ほど is mostly absent, and the sentence is more along the lines of
a simple statement of fact.

### Places where ほど can be used, but not くらい

[This page](http://www.geocities.jp/niwasaburoo/53teidohikaku.html#53.1) has a
section with some examples along these lines. Let's look at a few in light of
the rules derived from the above diagram:

> ヨットが買える **ほど** お金持ちではないよ。 He's not so rich that he can buy a yacht.
>
> 僕のお小遣いで買えない **ほど** 高くはなかった。 It wasn't so expensive that I couldn't buy it
> with my allowance.
>
> どうしても結婚したいという **ほど** 愛してはいなかった。 She didn't love him so much that she wanted
> to marry him at all costs.

The common thread running through these sentences is that the level marked by
ほど is not reached. (All of the sentences could be reordered to fit the pattern
"B may be true, but not to the extent A.") In other words, the actual level
lies to the left of the red dot on the above diagram. Because it's on the left
side, only ほど can be used.

### Places where くらい can be used, but not ほど

From the same page:

> ここに入っちゃいけないこと **ぐらい** 知ってるでしょう？ You do at least know that you can't come in
> here, right?
>
> 入賞した **ぐらい** で喜んではいけない。 You shouldn't be happy just over winning an award.
>
> 休みの日でも警備員をおく **ぐらい** できるだろう。 We should be able to at least station some
> guards on days off.

In all of these sentences, くらい (sometimes ぐらい; the difference was [covered in
this question](https://japanese.stackexchange.com/questions/433)) marks a
minimum level. So now we're dealing with the portion of the diagram to the
right of the red dot. Thus, only くらい is allowed.

### Effect on hyperbole

So based on what we've seen so far, why are these two different?

> 死ぬ **ほど** さびしい so lonely one could die _(not really serious)_
>
> 死ぬ **くらい** さびしい so lonely one could die _(serious, possibly suicidal)_

In statements like these, ほど, because it covers the left end of the scale,
implies that you haven't reached the red dot yet, but it feels like you're
getting close. くらい is different. With くらい, you're at the red dot and are on
the way to more extreme levels (toward the right end of the scale). 死ぬくらい thus
conveys more immediacy and reality than 死ぬほど, which can be used "lightly" and
without really meaning it.

This contrast between くらい's immediacy and reality and ほど's figurativeness
appears in sentences like this:

> 死ぬ **くらい** ならなんでもする。 If I were at the point of death, I would do anything.

ほど doesn't work nearly as well here, because the setting for this sentence is
that the speaker has a life-and-death choice and is literally staring death in
the face. This is solidly on the right end of the scale, so くらい is the best
option.

From this we can also explain the unnatural feeling from your example
fragment:

> 死ぬ **ほど** 恥ずかしい so embarrassed one could die _(playful exaggeration)_
>
> 死ぬ **くらい** 恥ずかしい so embarrassed one could die _(weird)_

The second sounds weird because, unlike loneliness, which can and does lead to
suicide, embarrassment is an unusual reason for dying. But as you correctly
pointed out, 死にたいくらい is fine here. This is because feeling like one wants to
die after being embarrassed is common and quite different from actually
carrying out that feeling.

