Choosing the right prefix of the ko-so-a-do series


When talking to native speakers, I find that I'm often corrected for picking
the wrong prefix when using words from the _ko-so-a-do_ series (as in
これ、そちら、あそこ、どんな、etc). My confusion mainly involves _ko-so-a_ (the _do_ prefix
being simpler since it indicates a question).

What I've been taught is to choose based on a concrete or abstract idea of
proximity, which is simple enough for the following particular series:

  * これ: thing close to in-group
  * それ: thing close to out-group
  * あれ: thing distant from both in and out-group

which also works nicely for the その、この、あの series. But I find the following
difficult:

Quotation of oneself or another person:

> 彼女は{ **そう、こう、ああ** }言いました。

Talking about location of oneself or another person:

> Xは{ **ここ、そこ、あそこ** }で旅行している間に、...

Emphasis of some property:

> { **こんな、そんな、あんな** }に美味しい魚を食べたことがないって。

Those are maybe not the best/most natural example sentence, and the particular
choice here is maybe not so relevant. Rather, I am interested in a more
general description of how to make these types of choices in an abstract
context where proximity is not well-defined.




The general rules for ko/so/a words in abstract situations are:

そ-words usually refer to what was said previously  
こ-words are often used for matters of emotional importance to speaker  
あ-words are used in personal statements to refer to remembered things

These are illustrated in the following examples:

> 港について船を降りた。そこで母が待っていた。
>
> この曲は始めのメロディが好きだ。ここはなんど聞いても飽きない
>
> 子どものころ、近くの公園でよく遊んだ。あの公園はまだ残っているだろうか。

Note: The choice depends on the context (文脈), given in the examples above in
the previous sentence. In your examples we cannot say which is the correct
choice because you have not given the previous sentence.

_Reference: JLPT 新完全マスターN３文法_

**Additional comment on other rules**

I think the above rules are needed for more complicated reading. I have seen
the other rules you mention in your comment used for conversations so perhaps
these are best looked at in context of spoken Japanese. I find too many rules
can be paralysing so my suggestion is to take a few “model examples” such as
the following, and then try apply those rules:

> A: あれ、持っているの？  
>  B: あれ、あ、もっている
>
> C: 昨日、マークさんに会いました  
>  D: あの人はずいぶんやせましたね
>
> E: 雨がよく降りますね。これは台風の影響ですよ
>
> F: 風邪をひいて、頭が痛いんです  
>  G: それはいけませんね
>
> H: 昨日、車でびわ湖へ行って来たよ  
>  J: その湖に魚がいたかい？
>
> K: いつアメリカへ行ったんですか  
>  M: あれは去年８月でした

_**Alternative rules [related general rules そ、こ、あ, given above]**_  
(i) Distance can be physical or psychological.  
(ii) So-words can be used for things just mentioned by one of the speakers.
[そ]  
(iii) Ko-words: The speaker feels closest to items described with ko-words [こ]
and furthest from a-words [あ]  
(iv) A-words can be used to refer to something someone said or did in the past
but both speakers must have previous knowledge of it. [あ]

Application to above model conversations:

A&B: (iv)  
C&D: (iv) - Both have previous knowledge of Mark  
E: (iii) - E uses kore to refer to “this thing that I am talking about”  
F&G: (ii)  
H&J: (ii) – “J” does not have “previous knowledge” to recall because he was
not there.  
K&M: (iv)

Note: We have been focused on the application of ko/so/a words. The
application of kore/koko/kochira/konna etc may also require practice.

_References: Based on explanations and examples in "The Dictionary of Basic
Jpse Grammar" and "An Introduction to Advanced Spoken Japanese"._




A million years ago, when I first came to Japan, an American guy, who at that
time had been here decades, told me that, "In Japanese, there is no concept of
communication separate from the people involved." I think he was overstating
the idea, but coming from an English speaking perspective, it does shed light
on the issue you're talking about.

In English, we can say, "I've never had a fish as delicious as _that_!" Taken
in complete isolation from any other context, this sentence contains no
concept of the type of dialogue where it might be taking place. The word
"that" does not contain that information. And, in English, we don't really
care. It's all about the fish.

However, in Japanese, it's not cool to just leave out an assumption of who the
speaker and audience are. You _have to_ have some model when speaking of the
kind of dialogue that is taking place. When speaking of the "deliciousness" of
the fish, even though it's an ethereal aspect of the fish, it's still in
relation to people. Maybe it's bound to an physical fish, or to someone's
opinion of a fish, but the concept nonetheless will always have a position
relative to two entities that are communicating about it.

So, I think the issue you're having is trying to see how `「こ・そ・あ」`words point
_to_ things, without considering where they're pointing _from_. You're asking
which of the three forms applies to a particular target, like the taste of a
fish, but there is no one form like there is in English. In Japanese, maybe
always, whether it's known, proposed, assumed, guessed, or however else you
get there, you have to have a conceptual model of both sides of the
communication taking place.

* * *

_(In addressing concerns in the comments, I'm going to take a rather avant-
garde route to explaining what I'm talking about, and I am up front about the
fact that I am using the attempt to answer this question as a way of helping
boost my own understanding, so if someone thinks this is wrong in some way,
please do be constructive in your criticism.)_

Image you're an author writing a book. You write a scene where your main
character, Betty Hughenot, enters a room where all the guests of a party are
gathered and having a lively discussion. Just as she enters, the last sentence
that happens to be spoken is Joshua McDougal exclaiming, "... I've never had a
fish as delicious as that!" As soon as Betty enters, though, the crowd turns
to greet her, forgetting about Joshua, because she is a renown wit and
everyone wants to hear what she's going to talk about. The story continues on,
Joshua's remark is never referenced again, it was just something he happened
to be saying when Betty opened the door.

Now, your book goes on to be a huge success, and it will be translated into
many languages, including Japanese. When the Japanese translator has to
translate Joshua McDougal's line of dialogue, she will go with:

> {こんな、そんな、あんな}に美味しい魚は食べたことがない！

This is the ambiguity I think you're talking about. While Tim's very
informative answer is correct about some factors that help you select `こんな`,
`そんな`, or `あんな`, the choice is always predicated on knowing enough about the
overall context that the choice is pretty much decided for you. However, in
this case, we don't have that extra context to work with.

The translator must select one, but which one? The determining factors that
would ordinarily tell us which to choose have happened before Betty entered
the room, and are outside of the narrative. Maybe Joshua McDougal had just
taken a bite of a fish present in the room, in which case `こんな` would work.
Maybe someone else in the room just finished eating a fish and was crying
because it was so good, and Joshua, seeing that person's expression, remarked
on it, thus `そんな` would be right. Or, maybe in the room there is a painting on
the wall depicting a fish being handed down to a chef from an angel descended
from heaven, and, looking at the painting and commenting on it wryly, `あんな`
could fit.

My point is just that you, as an author in English, didn't have to wrangle
with an exact decision on how it is that Joshua came to be saying that when
Betty entered the room, because in English, "as that" stands alone as being a
universal designation pointing at the deliciousness of the fish. Some fish,
somewhere.

A translator almost certainly would avoid the problem altogether with an
entirely different sentence structure. But, in keeping with the spirit of the
question, let's assume the Japanese translator _has_ to use one of the `あ・そ・こ`
words, like the sentence you provide. In doing so, that translator _has to_
choose some model of where delineations are of in-group, out-group, and
external to both, for the context of the sentence.

Let's say that the translator asks her publisher boss to contact the author
about what exactly Joshua meant, but you've never thought about it that much,
because your story is about Betty, and that statement was just filler. So, you
say it's okay for the translator to pick whichever one she likes. The
translator rolls a dice and goes with `そんな`. Now, every Japanese person
reading that translated book will think that Betty walked in on Joshua
observing someone else eating fish, or something like that. An impression
people didn't necessarily get with the English book.

It's a subtle, but extant, difference. In Japanese, everything(?) is assumed
to have some relationship to a speaker and a listener, and that is built into
the language.

I hope that helps make clear what I mean, and if someone thinks I've got some
part of this wrong, please do join in the discussion, I just ask that you do
so in the spirit of helping educate, not merely disagreement. Thanks!

