Do Negative Downstepped i-adj's have accents on な?


Consider that 上手い is a downstepped i-adj (i.e., pronounced as うまい{LHL}).

**Question:** What are the pitch accents of the following negative
conjugations of 上手い?

  * 上手くない
  * 上手くなかった
  * 上手くなくて
  * 上手くなければ
  * 上手くなる (not a negative conjugation but Dogen includes this with the others; see below).

# According to OJAD: no accents on な's

According to OJAD, they're _all_ accented on the first mora, with no accents
on な:

[![enter image description
here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/ibQq5.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/ibQq5.png)

[OJAD also has a "word conjugation table"
page](https://www.gavo.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp/ojad/search/index/word:%E4%B8%8A%E6%89%8B%E3%81%84),
which shows an additionally correct pitch with accent on their second mora
(but again no accents on the な):

[![enter image description
here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/hoY5H.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/hoY5H.png)

# According to Dogen: additional accents _are_ on な:

According to Dogen's pitch accent course, the rule for determining the pitch
of negative i-adj is to conjugate the i-adj into its く-form, and then add
ない{HL}, なかった{HLLL}, なくて{HLL},なければ{HLLL}, なる{HL}. Notice that in all of these
cases, accents _are_ on the な. This leads to the following:

[![enter image description
here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/3vdnf.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/3vdnf.png)

[![enter image description
here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/Yl7ul.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/Yl7ul.png)

[![enter image description
here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/Jlnv5.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/Jlnv5.png)

[![enter image description
here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/WGERm.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/WGERm.png)

[![enter image description
here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/Hl0lT.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/Hl0lT.png)

So which is correct? Are they both correct?




According to [日本語アクセント入門](https://www.sanseido-
publ.co.jp/publ/gen/gen2lang/jgoacc_prm/), for non-Heiban (起伏型) words, there
is a second downstep at な. That is, there is not a rise before な, it just goes
down. In this sense, both are not exactly correct (OJAD doesn't show the down
step (clearly) and the video shows a non/hardly-existent rise).

> p37. (adapted) 起伏型のナル形(ヨワクナル)は、....
> 語句の頭のヨのところで下がり目が生じた後、接尾辞ナルの第１拍目の後ろで2度目の下降が生じている。このようなピッチパターンを図にしてみると、次のようになる。
[code]

>     ヨ'  
>     >
>     　　　ワク ナ'  
>     >
>     　　　　　　　ル
[/code]

>
> １つのアクセント単位の中に２つ以上の下降が生じた場合は、このテキストでは、1回の下降ごとに ]
> という記号をつけ、例えば[ヨ]ワクナ]ルのように示すことがある（[は急激な上昇を示す）。

This applies to other suffixes. The same book (p39) has

> 辛い [カ]ラクナ]イ  
>  怖い [コ]ワクナ]イ  
>  弱い [ヨ]ワクナ]イ  
>  強い [ツ]ヨクナ]イ

* * *

I guess it depends on how much 'independence' is felt before ない (or other
prefixes). If there is a complete rise before な, it does not sound like a
suffix, but still ない IS perceived as independent to some extent, hence the
down stepping.




According to [日本語アクセント入門](https://www.sanseido-
publ.co.jp/publ/gen/gen2lang/jgoacc_prm/), for non-Heiban (起伏型) words, there
is a second downstep at な. That is, there is not a rise before な, it just goes
down. In this sense, both are not exactly correct (OJAD doesn't show the down
step (clearly) and the video shows a non/hardly-existent rise).

> p37. (adapted) 起伏型のナル形(ヨワクナル)は、....
> 語句の頭のヨのところで下がり目が生じた後、接尾辞ナルの第１拍目の後ろで2度目の下降が生じている。このようなピッチパターンを図にしてみると、次のようになる。
[code]

>     ヨ'  
>     >
>     　　　ワク ナ'  
>     >
>     　　　　　　　ル
[/code]

>
> １つのアクセント単位の中に２つ以上の下降が生じた場合は、このテキストでは、1回の下降ごとに ]
> という記号をつけ、例えば[ヨ]ワクナ]ルのように示すことがある（[は急激な上昇を示す）。

This applies to other suffixes. The same book (p39) has

> 辛い [カ]ラクナ]イ  
>  怖い [コ]ワクナ]イ  
>  弱い [ヨ]ワクナ]イ  
>  強い [ツ]ヨクナ]イ

* * *

I guess it depends on how much 'independence' is felt before ない (or other
prefixes). If there is a complete rise before な, it does not sound like a
suffix, but still ない IS perceived as independent to some extent, hence the
down stepping.

