Can その程度 be used for a high degree or with a positive connotation?


Recently I have heard that the collocation その程度【ていど】 always implies a low
degree, or rather a degree or level of something the speaker or author feels
is insufficient or _too_ low.

For example:

  * **その程度** の不幸しか知らない (implying they don't know what true misfortune/unhappiness is)
  * **その程度** の地震で、そればかりで、あの種類の構造物が崩壊するのは少しおかしいと思った (implying the earthquake was small enough it shouldn't have destroyed it)
  * お前のご奉仕は **その程度** か？ いいかげん、ご主人様の気持ちに気づけ！ 良太にはご奉仕の精神が足りない！ (implying she isn't doing much for him)

It seems that その程度 often carrys this connotation, but I've been wondering,
does it always? See below for a few examples I've collected where it expresses
a rather high degree, albeit never with a positive connotation. And
admittedly, they are from older books. So the question is:

  * Can その程度 be used to talk about a (subjectively) high degree of something?
  * Can it be used with a positive connotation, for a degree that is considered to be good or desirable? 
  * How common would this usage be nowadays; or is it be limited to a few special situations?

* * *

Here a a few examples I believe exhibit either a high degree. While looking
for examples, I did notice that this usage seems to be less common.

>
> 遊ぶのは勿論もちろんならんし、話をしても不可いかん。今後、この規則を破るものがあったら、発見次第それぞれの所属チイムの責任者によって、処分して貰もらう。尚【なお】、
> **その程度によっては** 、ホノルルなり、サンフランシスコなりに、船が着いたら、下船させてしまうぞ。
>
> ――田中英光【たなかひでみつ】 『オリンポスの果実』

Judging fron the context and considering the consequences --having to leave
the ship-- this `程度` of violating the rules seems to be rather high.

* * *

> ある年の秋だった。Ａ工場のあるＮ市は、日本全国を襲った暴風雨の襲撃をこうむった。 **その程度**
> は日本の諸都市中で最もみじめな部分に属するほどであった。
>
> ――葉山嘉樹【はやまよしき】 『海に生くる人々』

This paragraph is rather explicit about the `程度` of the damage being anything
but low.

* * *

> Ａの研究によると、高齢者の肉体は常に衰耗の一路を辿るにしても、 **その程度**
> はひとによつて違ふばかりでなく、同じひとりについて、部分的に遅速の差があり、その結果、ひとによつて、ある部分は既に老境に入り、ある部分は未だ青春の名残りをとゞめてゐるといふ現象がしばしばみられるといふのである。
>
> ――岸田國士【きしだくにお】 『老病について』

Here the `程度` of aging seems to be styled as neutral.

* * *

>
> われわれの現在もっている（現在のみならず将来にしても）育児の知識をさきにたてて赤ん坊を取り扱うということは、また一つのまちがいのもとです。すなわちはじめにいった通り、子供を育てるにはまず何よりも子供自身の生きる力を尊重しなくてはならないからです。子供自身からその力その生命の真の要求が強くあらわれるようでなければ、親々の詰め込み養育詰め込み教育になってしまって、
> **その程度**
> その種類こそちがえ、子供をいろいろの邪道に連れこんでゆくことになります。詰め込み養育や教育がもっともよくできた場合にも、盆栽や箱庭式の健康と人物をつくりあげるだけのことになってしまいます。
>
> ――羽仁【はに】もと子【こ】 『おさなごを発見せよ』

I don't think the author would have bothered to write this if she didn't
believe the `程度` of raising children the wrong way weren't too high, at least
in some cases.

* * *

>
> 若きダルガスはいいました、大樅がある程度以上に成長しないのは小樅をいつまでも大樅のそばに生【はや】しておくからである。もしある時期に達して小樅を斫【き】り払ってしまうならば大樅は独【ひと】り土地を占領してその成長を続けるであろうと。しかして若きダルガスのこの言を実際に試【ため】してみましたところが実にそのとおりでありました。小樅はある程度まで大樅の成長を促【うなが】すの能力【ちから】を持っております。しかし
> **その程度** に達すればかえってこれを妨ぐるものである、との奇態【きたい】なる植物学上の事実が、ダルガス父子によって発見せられたのであります。
>
> ――内村鑑三【うちむらかんぞう】 『デンマルク国の話 信仰と樹木とをもって国を救いし話』

I'm not quite certain, but as the idea is that the `小樅` support the growth of
the `大樅` until they grow too big and now hinder its growth, I think it
qualifies as an example.




その程度 consists of the two words その and 程度, and can be used as such with no
particular connotation.

Furthermore, as noted by [@broccoli
forest](https://japanese.stackexchange.com/users/7810/broccoli-forest), over
time the combination その程度 has become a collocation with an additional nuance,
namely implying a low or insufficient level or degree.

In the latter case, it can be considered one "word" or expression, which is
supported by the change in pitch accent: そのていど{LHHLL}. In the former case it
is その{LH}+ていど{LHH}.

* * *

Concerning the question regarding the positive and negative connotation,
consider the following thought:

> その程度で満足すべきなんじゃないのか、とラッセルは言いたいのでは。

At first sight, there appears to be a positive connotation here. However, upon
further reflection we find that そのていど{LHHLL} is still something subjectively
bad; it is merely something you should be satisfied with, instead of wanting
more. Being satisfied might involve a positive connotation here, but その程度
certainly does not.

Similar considerations apply to this:

> 貰ったほうは、何かの形で返さないとですから。お菓子とかその程度でいいのでは？

One is aware that sweets aren't the best gift, but considers it alright and
acceptable: 適当でいいんじゃない.

* * *

Taking these considerations and the examples from the question into account, I
believe we can say that:

  * そのていど{LHHLL} is often used as an expression associated with a negative connotation and low(er) degree or level.

  * At most it involves a neutral connotation when it is simply a combination of その{LH}+ていど{LHH}. In that usage, a rather a low(er) or high(er) degree could possibly be involved.

  * It is not an expression associated with a positive connotation or high(er) degree or level.




その程度 consists of the two words その and 程度, and can be used as such with no
particular connotation.

Furthermore, as noted by [@broccoli
forest](https://japanese.stackexchange.com/users/7810/broccoli-forest), over
time the combination その程度 has become a collocation with an additional nuance,
namely implying a low or insufficient level or degree.

In the latter case, it can be considered one "word" or expression, which is
supported by the change in pitch accent: そのていど{LHHLL}. In the former case it
is その{LH}+ていど{LHH}.

* * *

Concerning the question regarding the positive and negative connotation,
consider the following thought:

> その程度で満足すべきなんじゃないのか、とラッセルは言いたいのでは。

At first sight, there appears to be a positive connotation here. However, upon
further reflection we find that そのていど{LHHLL} is still something subjectively
bad; it is merely something you should be satisfied with, instead of wanting
more. Being satisfied might involve a positive connotation here, but その程度
certainly does not.

Similar considerations apply to this:

> 貰ったほうは、何かの形で返さないとですから。お菓子とかその程度でいいのでは？

One is aware that sweets aren't the best gift, but considers it alright and
acceptable: 適当でいいんじゃない.

* * *

Taking these considerations and the examples from the question into account, I
believe we can say that:

  * そのていど{LHHLL} is often used as an expression associated with a negative connotation and low(er) degree or level.

  * At most it involves a neutral connotation when it is simply a combination of その{LH}+ていど{LHH}. In that usage, a rather a low(er) or high(er) degree could possibly be involved.

  * It is not an expression associated with a positive connotation or high(er) degree or level.

