 and you can make up some ground pretty quick, but you've got to be aggressive. And I would say, Dave, beyond just the mindset of aggressive, I'd be doing some things if I were him to make some extra money and try to catch up. Where can I make an additional $10,000, an additional $15,000, $25,000, so you can play catch-up and start stacking some money. When you begin to see that momentum, by the way, that gets really, really exciting, and you start doing more of that. A lot of people think that they've got to have a side hustle just to pay off debt or just pay the bills.