 And he's kind of the grand old man of Lutheranism in one respect. He had a radio show for a long time when radio was a big thing. And he just was a faithful gentleman. And one day, we would meet at MCL cafeteria for lunch on a weekly or monthly basis. And he would always order the Jack Benny. I think that meant a small portion. And one time, I thought I was really going to put Harry on the spot. And I did.