 that they would do. And some denominations took all 12 with just one preacher. In the ELCA, or at that time, I guess that was the LCA, John Van Orsdal, a wonderful man who has now passed on, but he had been doing it himself. And then my understanding is that they tried another person with him, but it just didn't work out. And so I think they said, well, hey, why don't we try a woman?