text:  I would say probably 10 years into the relationship. So you would have been 27 and he would have been around 57. Right. I would say at that point, I mean, it started to change at CalArts, so I would even say in my early 20s, simply because he may have known more about art, but I knew more about the avant-garde. And so that was my sort of ace in a hole to become his equal. Okay.