 So talking about bringing information into our world, I have many many years ago I experienced a near-death experience and this was probably 17 years ago and I've spoken about it and I've written about it in my book Becoming Aware and  More and more recently, I have heard this near-death experience as a very common phrase. If you search it on Google, you'll see something like 29 million hits. So I started looking into this further, realizing there are so many great books about the paranormal and various experiences that are beyond the known.  Now, I'm loving this because there is a book that comes out, that's coming out now, with actual scientific evidence of the existence of life after life or precognition. And that's the name of the book. It's called Premonition, The Premonition Code. And joining me are two incredible people that have...  Put this book into the world, which I'm very grateful for. Teresa Chung, who is joining us from the UK. She has a master's from King's College, Cambridge, and has spent the last 20 years writing bestselling books and encyclopedias about the psychic world, which is super cool.  And also Dr. Julia Mossbridge. And she's joining us from San Francisco. She's a futurist trained in cognitive neuroscience. And she's a fellow at IONS, the Institute of Neurotic Sciences, and many different places. And she has one of her topics is the possibility of time travel. It's one of the things I've always, always thought was going to be possible in my lifetime. So welcome both Julia and Teresa. Thank you for joining me.  Thank you so much, Lisa. I should have said, welcome, Julia. Hello. Hi. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. And welcome, Teresa. Thanks for joining us. You can tell from our accents who's who, so that's good. It's really great. You both don't sound a lot alike, which is terrific.  So one of the things I love is that this book has been brought to us by a... I guess it's from the... Explain to me who published the book. Tell us that first. It's published by Watkins Media in the UK simply because that's where I've been working recently. And I've known Julia for a few years, have interviewed her and been fascinated by her research.  And Watkins Media kind of specializes in this area of supernormal publishing, which, you know, other big publishers sometimes struggle with the concept of. And I was fascinated by Julia's research, and I couldn't understand why it wasn't more well-known. Of course, she's a superstar in the circles that she mixes in, the scientific and academic circles.  but not outside that, and that felt very wrong to me. And this book is an effort to try and bring some of this brilliant research into the very real possibility of precognition out to the general reader in a way that we hope is accessible. And that's basically how it came about. It's an attempt to show people that books about the paranormal are not just  written from a believer's perspective, or someone who's had an experience, because that's how these books tend to be born, somebody has an incredible experience, and they write their story about it. I wanted this book, and Julia wanted this book, to show the credible science out there. I mean, there are other books which bring in the science, but they tend to be quite impenetrable and difficult to read, because they're filled with jargon, and we're tried in this book to make it accessible.  so that everybody can kind of understand where the science is at. And talking about the science, Julie is your lady there because she knows it so well. I mean, it was quite tough for me to keep up with the science and working on it, but a fantastic, fantastic opportunity. Well, let's start off there by asking you, Julia, what exactly is precognition, or at least at the level that you are studying it?  Sure. So first I want to say, Teresa, you always say such kind words about my work, but this book wouldn't exist without Teresa trying to explain to me that when you talk with people about science, you have to do it in a way that they can understand. Good start. So precognition. Precognition is getting information, or at least defined scientifically as...  getting information about future events that is accurate and that cannot be picked up through other means such as inference. So it's not precognition to decide to bring an umbrella with you as you leave the house the next day if it's raining tonight. Right. That's just thinking that's logic and that's inference. But it would be precognition if  There's not a cloud in the sky and there's no subconscious cues, no rumblings that you might be hearing, no moisture in the air that tells you that it's going to rain and you still bring your umbrella because you just have a feeling. So the reason that I sort of give those two examples is because  In most situations in life of what we call spontaneous precognition, which happens often in dreams or in feelings of I've just got to do this thing or I just think this is important, sort of compulsions, that there's a way in which it's very hard to determine whether it's genuine precognition or not, but we can actually test in the lab. What we know that an event can't be predicted because we use a random number generator to produce the event,  after the behavior that we're testing has happened. So there's no way that you could, I could explain that, unpack that in a little bit. But anyway. That's why it's fascinating. Yes. Does that make sense? Yes. So you can do these experiments over and over and over again and get the same results. What are the actual experiments? Yeah, there's some standard ones I can kind of talk you through.  So one standard one is dream precognition. So that's a standard experiment that needs to be replicated more. There's only about six really good dream precognition studies out there right now, so there needs to be more. But the studies are like this. You take someone who you usually want to use people who already report, I remember my dreams and I have dreams.  what seem to be precognitive experiences or predictions in my dreams that seem to happen the next day. So you take those people and you tell them, look, I want you to go to bed, dream, and make the intention to dream about the video that I'm going to show you tomorrow. And so the person goes to sleep and they dream. And the next day you interview them or they write down all of their dreams. You put them away so that those can't be changed. And then you use a random number generator to pick which of several videos you'll show them  So then you show them that video, so that's their experience. Oh, so you don't know what the video is going to be. No one on the planet knows what the video is going to be. No one knows. Okay. Right. You have to make it that way, because if you know as a researcher, you could give the person cues. You know, when they're telling you their dream, then you'll say, oh, yeah, you dreamt about police officers? Well, that's interesting. Right. You might not even know you're doing it. So you just have to not know. No one gets to know.  until you do the random number generator, and you only use the random number generator to pick what the target is until after the dream material has been fully recorded. So there's no changing that. So you have to be clear on all of these steps. Then once you have the dream material and you have the target, you send to an independent judge who doesn't know what the target was, doesn't know who this dreamer was or anything like that. You send them the dream material, the target video, plus several other...  videos and you don't tell them which one was the target and you have them decide the like the likeness between the dream material and let's say you've done the four videos and all four videos and just have them rank which one was most like the dream now you know which one was the target but that independent judge does not and some experiments um they don't name the target until after the independent judge has done the ranking  and then they showed the dreamer the target. So there's ways to do it that are even more foolproof, and I approve of those. So that's a standard kind of precognitive dream experiment. Did that make sense? How many participate in each one of the studies? Well, so it depends on the experimenter, but a good number would be around 40 people or 60 people. That would be a good number. Sort of the more the better because then you can look for any peculiarities  that might happen with gender or age or things like this. Okay, and now what is the difference, and I'm curious, Teresa, if you could comment on the difference between precognition and intuition. So how could you not just have intuition and think it's the same thing? It's very, very subtle. I would basically say is precognition is advanced.  It's just super intuition in my view. And in the book, we kind of blur the bound distinctions between the two. I mean, precognition is just a knowing, a seeing of the future. Intuition tends to be less specific, more kind of a general feeling. But intuition, I would say, is super intuition, advanced. So kind of like intuition and precognition, would you agree, Julia, that they're kind of similar?  I guess I kind of think of it as like dogs and collies. Like intuition, that's like the group dogs, and precognition is like collies. Precognition is a specific type of intuition, but there's other types of intuition. And some types of intuition just draw on subconscious cues you have about sensory events. Like you didn't hear the rumble of the thunder, but you think, ah, it might rain, but you don't know why you think that, so that would be more like intuition.  That would be an example of a kind of intuition, but I would say precognition is one of the categories that falls under intuition, yeah. So there's clues sometimes with intuition. With precognition, there's no context. Have either of you had the precognitive experience where you actually did this yourselves? Well, we both write about that in the book. I mean, I have had...  precognitive experience is not as regular as I would say Julia had because I mean obviously that's her research focus and that's what she's doing with her dream work as well but I have had some major what I believe to have been precognitive I could be wrong I don't know but I had one major one which I believe saved my life about 20 years ago when I was driving and I had an option to turn left and right and I had this powerful sense that I needed to turn in another direction and because of that I truly believe I avoid  a potential accident, those kind of things. I've had dreams where a few days later they've played out in real life. I believe I had a dream of my unborn son at the time before I even knew I would have a son. The dream I had of the child before I'd even met my husband was almost exactly like my son was when he was a teenager. Things like that. I have had  what I believe to be... I've had enough evidence to think there must be something there. But that's why it was so mind-blowing meeting Julia and the kind of work she does, that these things are being tested scientifically. Because I thought it was impossible to test these things scientifically. I thought it's so vague and elusive, and you can't pin it down. And it's just...  For me, it's a major step forward for everything I've written about. It kind of validates it because I've written for years and years about these experiences, you know, sensing the future, glimpsing the other side, all these kinds of things. And to see science now beginning to really take it seriously. They're not saying they actually believe, but what they're saying is there's enough evidence out there for this to be studied.  And it needs to be studied because too many people have these experiences for them to just all be wiped away as old delusions. Yeah. And I'm glad that it is being studied. You know, the research into that now is phenomenal. Yes. You know, 50 or so years ago, before resuscitation techniques were advanced, you know, these people would have taken their stories to the other side with them. Right. Right.  People are coming back because of resuscitation techniques that they have to study it. I'm sorry for interrupting. What's going on? Julia, do you think that this is going into a different realm, or is it actually predicting a future that already exists? I'm sure you've had this question from skeptics and so forth to say, oh, this is impossible, it's just coincidence and so forth. You are a futurist. So what are your thoughts about that?  Right, so the first answer is, of course, always we don't know. We don't get how any of this stuff is working. So that's the most honest answer. I could now speculate. I will now speculate freely. So Teresa is right that we both have had these precognitive dreams, precognitive experiences, precognitive feelings, compulsions. And that's what got me into this research, just very interested in time and time travel, mental time travel.  But part of this work is – well, a lot of this work is about really being comfortable with not knowing how something works. And so the sort of – the models – I can tell you about a couple of the models that people have come up with who are in this field and wondering about these questions. And so one of the models is that what people are sensing is the probability of a future event. So this model says the future is not set in stone. So when you sense something –  you're sensing the 80% likelihood that it will happen. And sometimes you'll be correct about 80% of the time, and sometimes you won't, right? So that's one model. Another model is that you're not sensing a future event at all. What you're sensing is your own response to a future event. So it's almost like if you think of your brain as a particular system, the brain itself is predicting its own future state.  Um, so there's no information about the event at all. It's more like in about three minutes, I'm going to be really scared. Um, so I have a feeling that I should start paying attention to my surroundings right now. Um, so that's another, that's another model. Um, another model is that, uh, like what's called the block, uh, universe model of space time. It comes off of that idea that, that arose from Einstein's, um, special relativity. And, um,  That's the model that, look, everything that will happen already sort of exists. We're just not there yet. And so you can get information about the future event, which is a solid event that is destined to happen, and you can get information about that event in some ways. Now, in some sort of method that doesn't involve space-time, that is a sort of extra space-time outside of the three-dimensional space, one-dimensional time, but gets us information here.  So those are sort of three competing models, and it could be that none of them are right. But there's evidence to support each one of them, so it's a little tricky. Excuse me. It could be all of them are right. I mean, you don't know. Exactly. Exactly. I mean, I thought this kind of everybody can do this, but the more that you practice and the more that you get validation, the more that you get used to working with it, just like  working out in a gym the more that you do bicep curls the more defined your bicep will get hopefully eventually um that you know you just learn to work with it so if you you know it's just you know it's just trial so if somebody wants to try this they can just start to how would they start to the recognizing signs symbols how could someone start  You know, Teresa's a great expert on that because she speaks to the dream portion. And frankly, most of these experiences start out in dreams. Okay. Teresa, could you answer that question? Well, how you start is by recording your dreams, the symbols, creating your own dream dictionary, as it were, and taking it from there. I do think that working with your dreams is the very first step to enhancing your precognitive abilities.  and just seeing how these images play out in your life and situations. That, for me, dream work has been very important in my life and has guided me and inspired me many, many times to make better decisions for my future because of what I've seen in my dreams. Can you ask a question before the dream state? Is that what you suggest doing?  I didn't used to do it. Actually, I started to do it when I met Julia because that's what she was doing. I'd never thought about that. I'd just been quite passive with my dreams. They happened. I recorded them and I analyzed them. And now I am starting to ask questions. I will go to sleep at 9 and say, I want to have some insight into a situation or a person or what I've got to do next. And the dream images just astonish me sometimes how they're able to provide me with information  material to work with and be inspired by because i i'm quite a prolific writer i do a lot of writing work on a lot of books and sometimes you get you know thinking how do i go forward now and then i i can draw tap into my dreams to to use the images there for inspiration for chapter titles for for new directions um it's wonderful i'm in the dream world  It is wonderful, and I actually feel quite sad now if I don't have a dream. Now, how do you... I get angry. I think, oh, nothing, blank, you know, and I get angry. Well, that's how most people wake up every morning, thinking, you know, just moving on. How do you do this? How do you record your dreams? I mean, I have a pen and pad by my bed, and I realize that as soon as I start moving or doing anything, really...  that the images have gone. So I've got into the habit now of religiously recording my dreams on the moment I'm waking. Because as soon as you start moving, dream images just fade. However, precognitive dreams, I mean, I almost call them night visions. I've found that really strong precognitive dreams, they are very powerful and they don't tend to fade on waking. I don't know if you agree, Juliet, that the more precognitive the dream, the more vivid it tends to be. Oh, that is the sort of  super clarity or super realism or vividness of a dream it is a result that most people yeah most people say it's correlated yeah that's so that was the experience that i had it was the indelible feeling it's as if the dream or the when i had that near-death experience as it's as if it was tattooed into my brain like i exactly and you can remember yeah in colors it's almost like there's a logic to it as well because i found symbolic dreams tend to be quite  illogical and the beginning and the middle end all meshed out, but I found that precognitive things, they've got clarity and an order and a reality about them, that you can remember five, ten years after you've had them, longer in your case,  I'm sure it stayed with you. Oh, yeah. You could almost, when you close your eyes, go back there. As if it was yesterday, absolutely. Is there a way that you can predict things on purpose, like an earthquake or a stock market crash or something like that? I mean, there's many gifted psychics who can do this. How could we learn to do that if we don't have that, quote, gift?  This is the time to plug our website, which is totally free, by the way, www.thepremonitioncode.com, which hopefully next week we'll be launching alongside with the book, where people can do a method of training that Julie has created where you can train and be tested scientifically.  And this is a radical step forward, I think, in this kind of thing. As I said, when I typically write books about intuition or dreams or whatever, it's the standard advice, record your dreams, tap into your feelings, meditate, etc. This is taking things a giant leap further, and I hope the world is ready. Julia is a futurist, so it is very futuristic. There is going to be a controlled six-step... I mean, Julia, can you explain the...  because you're working on the website now, the precognitive training that people can do in conjunction with the book. Okay, the website is the premonitioncode.com, and what will they experience there? Right, so I was just working on this last night. We've been working on this for months. It's very exciting. We think it's the world's largest experiment of its kind ever in the sense that  First of all, it's free, so everyone can come in and try their hand at it. But what the experience is, if they choose to go through what we call positive precog training, so we call people positive precogs who are pursuing improving their precognition to help the world in a positive way. And so positive precogs. And the training portion has two major subsets. So one is practice and one is testing.  Practice and testing are essentially the same thing, but the difference is when you do practice, your score isn't being recorded. When you do testing, your score is recorded. And the reason it matters is because every time you do a test and your score is recorded, when you get to a certain level of accuracy that's scientifically significant in terms of statistics, we promote you to what's called the Hall of Fame. And the way each...  one of these little practice pieces or test pieces goes is it walks you through the six steps to what we call controlled precognition. Controlled precognition is literally saying, now I'm going to put myself into a state in my waking, you know, non-dreaming state where I will sketch out on a piece of paper words and images that come into my head that seem to be associated with the future picture that I will see.  And so you're practicing basically tapping into the future. And the website takes you through the six steps, which are, of course, written more in depth into the book. The book has a whole chapter that just takes you through these steps. But it reminds you of the six steps. It helps put you into that place. You sketch out your picture. You write your words that are coming to you. We can talk in more detail about this if you'd like. And then once you feel you're done...  you're asked to choose between two graphs of two different pictures. And the graphs show how much of each different kind of object or thing might be in the picture. So, for instance, you might see one graph that says, oh, there's a lot of water in this picture, and compared to another graph that says there's a lot of plants in this picture. You have to choose which one most matches what you received. Once you choose that, then a random number generator is used to choose a picture.  and to show it to you, and you were either correct or incorrect. And you can do that as many times as you want, and the idea is that we know from decades of research in this kind of controlled precognition that there are ways that people can improve over time.  It's fascinating because it's kind of like neurofeedback, the way that you train your brain every time you have a certain pattern, a positive image will appear. So in a sense, when you're doing these experiments, you're training the brain to feel and operate in a certain pattern that could be called the precognitive pattern or whatever it is, where it taps into and receives an image. It could be brainwaves. Have you ever tested that?  Yeah, sure. So there's a whole group of people who have tested different kinds of brain oscillations or brain waves that might be related to this ability. And it does look like theta, there's something going on with theta, which is around 4 to 7 cycles per second or hertz, and something around alpha, which is around 8 to 12 or 13 hertz. That could be related to this, although it's not in a really straightforward way. So much more work needs to be done there.  But absolutely. I mean, this is you're exactly right. You're putting your brain in a certain state and then you're training yourself. OK, this works when I do that. It doesn't work when I do this. And it can be a long process, but it's definitely a fun process when you get, you know, when you get some information and you look at that picture and you say, wait a minute, I drew a picture of a of a tire and there's a car with a tire on it. And, you know, it starts to make sense. It feels really good. Are you saying that the brain is in theta and alpha at the same time?  Well, it sort of is in all the different, I mean, so the brain is like a symphony. It's playing all the notes. That is fascinating. It's just like the movie Limitless. I mean, you're really in the state of alpha, theta, beta, gamma at the same time.  That's fantastic. Yeah, yeah. That's being fully awake and alive and using, as they say, the other 90% of the brain. But this takes work. You can't probably stay in that state for very long because it could be exhausting. Well, I don't know. I mean, so it's so early on this, you know, in terms of our investigation. Teresa, what were you saying?  For people interested in testing the supernormal precognitive powers of their brain, I do urge them to try the training and see what happens. And we really hope that we can find scientifically validated positive precogs through this, people who are consistently scoring higher than chance.  through the training, it is totally free. It's also quite exciting because when you do it, you become part of a scientific experiment. So even if you don't score too high or don't do too well, you are contributing to research into this. Fantastic, yes. And you do it in conjunction with the book because, you know, in the book we say, now go and take this quiz or now go and try this controlled science.  to conditionally explain it and just to be part of the scientific experiment. And it's about time in this field that that kind of thing happened and we moved a step further than the airy-fairy kind of anecdotal experience that we have presented. I just would really like to see it moving a bit further because I have an answer now for people. We have somewhere where you can go where we're trying to test it properly.  Now speaking of time, do you think that it is actually going into other dimensions and tapping into those other dimensions, whether they be in the brain or outside the brain?  Oh, I certainly do, but that's because of my spiritualist background and what I write about and what I believe. I think that it is going into another realm of spirit, of course, but I'm sure Julia would come from a different perspective on that, but I'll leave her to give her thoughts on that. Julia? Other dimensions. So it is pretty clear. I have a lot of different models right now of  sort of the nature of the universe include dimensions in addition to ours. How they relate to time in this sort of three plus one, three dimensions of space and one dimension of time sort of physical reality is not clear at all. I mean, so if you're in a dimension that's beyond what we already know in space-time, it seems like that might be orthogonal or on a different axis.  access relative to what we already know, which means that the interaction between that dimension and what we're experiencing now would be unclear. But having something in the brain that's also in a different dimension would suggest that that other dimension is interacting within what's in space-time, which is within our physical