I've known some of this man for 25 or 30 years now people who were of the scale, who were mute, paranoid, multiple murdurers who had been killing people even after they got into prison or been jailed we were able to work with and turn around so they haven't harmed anybodies head for the last 25 years and in fact are engaged in constructive work in the case of the extremes like i just mention still still in a correctional institution but in another words not harming anybody and not harming oneself even after having history of killing people within the jail so what i'm saying is that you can take the most hopeless cases and my recommendation is don't give on anybody there's no human being who cannot be reached at some level or another if you have dedication, patience and you want to think about it has something has to go on sometimes not just for months or years, but for decades. 