Erm so, so really what er although when you came to summarize the needs I've actually put good but too technical  because we all knew what you were getting at but erm  but to actually be doing that but not know at what point he needs to stop at or wants to stop it, you didn't know erm the pension that he wanted and you didn't know at what age he wanted to retire at that point  you know, you, you hadn't got any of those facts from him, you know