Erm how do people sort of beco when you become a member of a group, usually in some way the group changes you as you go through different stages of it, your values may change as a result of interacting with people in the group and th this process of erm somebody's come up with how it is that you start off in a group, how it is that you become an active member of a group, how it is you may even become involved in the maintenance of the group and the leadership of it and then you sort of die away and that's the y'know retire from the group.