Now we all know because we're print buyers to a larger or greater degree but they're clients they over-estimate they add about twenty five per cent more on than they need and you have to send them back to sharpen their pencils several times before you've seen the estimate, they of course know that all print buyers are idiots who keep forgetting all the important things and don't give them half the information they need like the weight of paper or the fact that there's to be a pocket at the back so, I think if we got the man  I think if we maybe started off with H M S O the print buyer which is more akin to what we are and say well you know these are the problems I've got I'm sitting with a six million pound budget buying for the whole of the government of Scotland and I have problems and these are the problems that I have, then we get to the wee man from  who says now wait a minute boys I get the rubbish that you send out, that was the message and let's make it funny but slightly aggressive let's highlight the real problems because that's what it's about, we're not here for a nice night we're here to learn