Erm in the early stages, I mean you've got to go through all the ranks, you've got to go through that physical side, even if you want to get on, there's no direct promotion into the higher ranks so you've got to go through it, every Chief Officer, every senior officer that you, you come across in the fire service, has started as a fireman and will start as a fireman  on like er the forces where you get direct entry into the forces, you don't get them in the Fire Service.