yeah, no, not that we come back to that in a moment or to, I'm just trying to see where this leads us though Mr , erm as a matter of legal analysis, erm y-y-y- your complaint, one particular one we're talking about is that erm these standard, these are standard degrees which offend the competition rules  now  if it, if that's right  would not the consequence by erm across the ball, you're saying you only, you only would render them invalid in so far as they happen to do any, happened to have done any particular name of, er that, I can't think, it didn't seem to be in any of the erm cases we've looked at where the competition rules were applied, but that was a necessary condition  if, if, if it's  that if it's void, if people have suffered a loss as a result of it they can recover a lost, you don't have to show a loss do you in order to, to, to be declared void