Erm so erm but of course I mean t to make the point because it doesn't really contradict what you're saying Heather because of course the rather more extreme kinds of Protestant Sects that do emphasise for example erm  er narrow dogmatic teaching much more so you could say that erm and I think this would perhaps be the answer to, to Oliver's point to some extent because it goes back to Dean's original point that erm here we're we we're talking about a general theory of groups, but of course some groups can be more groupie than others.