What sort of, erm, pressure or involvement or leadership ought to be given, or wh , yeah, what pressure ought to be put on the business sector, in order that it should sort of, conform  conform is not a very good word, in order, it's ability to to contribute to the voluntary sector, and engage with it, should not be based upon individual and enlightened examples, such as I B M's, but should pull upwards the rest of the business sector, in other words, should N C V O actually says to the business sector as a whole, look, we think globally this is what you ought to be doing.