Erm this whole problem does give ministers erm a great deal of tension and heart searching erm and er we're in the throws of, of, of looking for a leaflet that's gonna help ministers faced with er parents who come and have to be turned away because we feel embarrassed, we feel erm the weight of our, our turning away people and our inability to minister the grace of God to them, although I'd of thought  gravity of  but er anyway erm er but we have this problem and erm it seems to me that one way out of it is to pick up on what our brother from the Church of England said and look at new rites, and new ways in which we can open our arms to a public out there which is desperately in need of rites of passage.