   Collateral Murder
  For those who haven't seen it, here is the video released through WikiLeaks that shows a video recording of an American combat helicopter opening fire unprovoked on a dozen or so civilians, then gunning down a van that came to carry off one of the wounded men.This only saw the light of day because two Reuters employees were killed in the incident, and so it got investigated where other incidents were not.  What's most upsetting to me is that this was apparently investigated by the U.S. military, and they decided that there was no wrongdoing, nor should any procedures be changed to prevent events like this.This voter is now for getting out of the middle east as soon as possible.  What do you guys think about the video?  What should be done to prevent this kind of thing in the future?   
  I can't believe I actually watched that... it's sick.I'm sure some ex-military person will probably post on here soon enough defending the conduct of the soldiers in question, as they were acting within their ROE --- but that doesn't change the facts of what happened.Even if they did honestly mistake a camera for a gun, and a group of guys with 2 AKs (common sight in Iraq) for a group of insurgents with AKs and RPGs... even if this is all within ROE... isn't it scary that we've created a place where this kind of horror can (and does) occur in everyday life, and moreover is acceptable practice?Guilty of walking calmly through the street with a camera... guilty of trying to save a dying man...The gunner/pilot are insulting the men on the ground as they plead with HQ for permission to fire, taunt the wounded cameraman to pick up his (non-existent) weapon so they can finish him off, congratulate each other for firing their high-explosive rounds into the crowd or through the windscreen of the van so effectively... They even laugh when the hummers arrive and drive over the corpses.Thankfully they're silent as the troops on the ground carry the dying children from the wreckage of the van... until they excuse themselves with "Well, it’s their fault for bringing their kids into a battle" that is...[Edited by - Hodgman on April 6, 2010 8:49:20 PM];  Let me first say this: I'm not ex-military and I was and still am against the war. Now, that was disturbing. But honestly, I couldn't tell whether those guys were carrying guns or cameras. From that height, I can't figure how they are able or think they are able to tell. It all looks like black botches. I don't know where they got the idea those people were firing. There wasn't any dustup, lights, gunshots. Nothing. I didn't even notice the kids until the end of the video when they are pointed out. So I don't think I'm in any position to criticize when I could have easily made the same mistake. Also, it's disgusting how they hi-fived and patted each other on the back. But that's mainly because we know that those are innocent civilians and not insurgents/terrorists.But after watching a video like that and knowing that events such as that occured on a daily basis, it's no wonder the Taliban are still alive and kicking and the insurgency is just growing and constantly fed beast. God bless the families of those passed.   ;  This is also a very strong argument to *significantly* upgrade the cameras on military vehicles.  It's impossible to identify what the cameraman is carrying with that image.If the gunner could have clearly identified what the cameraman was carring the entire incident would have been avoided.   ;Quote:Original post by NypyrenThis is also a very strong argument to *significantly* upgrade the cameras on military vehicles.  It's impossible to identify what the cameraman is carrying with that image.Do we know that the limiting factor is the resolution of the camera, rather than that of the YouTube upload?   ;  Are you implying that the gunner can't see and should have been wearing glasses? Because pilots are calling out AK-47s and RPGs. Now from that distance I can see how those objects could look like AKs and RPGs. But if you're saying that the YouTube video is giving us grainy images and the pilots have a crystal clear, 20/20 view of what was going on. And that's true. Then all of them should be held on war crimes.But, IMO, based on that video, there's no way the pilots could say with a 100% confidence that those were weapons. Being in that type of environment, a war environment, I can't really blame the soldiers for being soldiers. Or even those type of mistakes, even though it was gruesome to bear and watch. But without further solid evidence, I won't allow myself to believe that those soldiers knowingly killed innocent civilians. Not from that height and imagery.   ;  I haven't watched it, but during the Iraq war I've seen some footage of the Apache in action. They are methodical in their killing. I guess being 2 miles away from the scene and looking at it through a high res video feed you do become detached. The gunner and the command pick targets and mark them off as they are being destroyed, which doesn't sound to bad but the targets in this case were people. I guess thats just war these days, killing through a video camera.-ddn   ;  Is this the blackwater case that was rejected by the US last month?My friend at work told me his friend was in Afghan and they saw 2 civilians in a field and said fuck it lets kill them anyway. Said they gave the go for a helicopter to fire on them. The good part of the story, he said they actually did find them with weapons.   ;Quote:Original post by Alpha_ProgDesAre you implying that the gunner can't see and should have been wearing glasses? Because pilots are calling out AK-47s and RPGs. Now from that distance I can see how those objects could look like AKs and RPGs. But if you're saying that the YouTube video is giving us grainy images and the pilots have a crystal clear, 20/20 view of what was going on. And that's true. Then all of them should be held on war crimes.But, IMO, based on that video, there's no way the pilots could say with a 100% confidence that those were weapons. Being in that type of environment, a war environment, I can't really blame the soldiers for being soldiers. Or even those type of mistakes, even though it was gruesome to bear and watch. But without further solid evidence, I won't allow myself to believe that those soldiers knowingly killed innocent civilians. Not from that height and imagery.While the first shooting might have been an unfortunate mistake (You have to look at things with some really US loving glasses to see things that way though), the murder of the civilians who tried to help the wounded is an obvious warcrime, shooting civilians who try to help wounded is illegal even if the wounded is your enemy.The fact that the US government tried to cover things up and lied about the incident makes them just as guilty as the soldier who pulled the trigger.Its sad that international laws only applies to some nations and not all.   ;Quote:I guess thats just war these days, killing through a video camera.true it has become thus butin this case I wouldnt assume thats the method these guys would of used to pick targets, that would use true optical enlargement this is just a downgraded video feed which is used to record, where they afterwards analyze how they reacted etc.eg Its like seeing afterwards the video from a tasergun and and not being able to make out wether the cop could see wether the person they shot had a gun or not based on that grainy footage   