   Why RPGS?
  (Note: I'm using the term RPG here even though I hate it, to keep from having to differentiate between the action, strategy and storytelling variations of the genre)"I'm looking for a team to start my first game.  It's an action RPG in a post apocalyptic...""...a fantasy realm of elves and dragons, with an expansive world and deep story...""...magic and weapons merge into Meapogic artifacts, used to defeat the evil sorceror Darkone..."Everybody wants to do an RPG.  Hell, I want to do an RPG, but I know better than to attempt it right now.  Most new developers' idea of an RPG is influenced by Final Fantasy or Baldurs Gate or Ultima.  These games are made by huge teams with huge budgets*, and yet so many people around here think that they can create an RPG that stands out (sometimes MMO) using a small makeshift team of n00bs.Why am I bringing this up?  To see what other people think of this: Why are smaller developers still trying to make content driven games like RPGS when it has been proven time and time again that the most successful indie games are not heavily content driven?  (Puzzlers are the biggest example, but other games like Insaniquarium, N, Marble Blast, Mutant Storm also fit that category).  I'd guess 80% of all games that people tried to make at my school involved more content than a student team could possibly create, and on these boards I more often than not notice the same types of games being pitched on Help Wanted.  I've fallen into the trap myself on more than one occasion.So I'm posting this for two reasons: one, am I wrong?  Are RPGs and other content driven games a viable option for indies?  And two, if I'm right then maybe some of the new developers will consider the way they approach games and get a reality check.  Do you have enough resources to create the amount of content you plan to have in your game?*(The old Ultima games weren't made by huge teams, but few people are trying to emulate those.)   
  My game only has RPG elements (e.g. stats to try and improve the replay value); RPG purists would shriek and throw their 3rd edition AD&D manuals at it. My last two RPG-ish games (CSRPG/CSRPG2) were either unfinished or very short. I've more or less learned my lesson about content. [wink]RPGs are some of the more immersive games in the commercial gaming space; Oblivion latches onto my brain and makes me want to play it in a way that something more indie-achievable, like Shi Sen (which is also absoludicrously badass) does not.My next game is probably going to be significantly less content-powered, because writing the tools and all of the work to make content easier to build is a pain.RPGs are viable for indies to make; just don't end up like the guy who made that enormous RPG over seven years for the Tapwave and Palm and then got to watch the Tapwave market collapse and everyone die. The game is fine gamemakers' art, but it looks very dated and was only originally available for some very poor platform choices (as the market shifted very quickly away from Palms to other PDA types for gaming). I think a good RPG engine backed with free episodic content and micropayments for some modules would actually be relatively profitable -- think NWN with some for-pay episodes. That way you can cut it off as soon as you get sick of it or people stop buying into it. Spiderweb Software's doing pretty well with their indie RPGs, though I think their star is fading after so many sequels and aged engines.Last, some of my favourite games are RPGs: Taskmaker/Tomb of the Taskmaker (which CSRPG is an obvious ripoff of), Daggerfall/Morrowind/Oblivion, Ultima VII. It is a huge trap and I often have to force myself away from doing a "giant" game with an overarching storyline. I have at least two or three entire RPGs stuck in my head, but I'll be damned if I'm ever going to spend the effort to make them!   ;  id just like to comment i enjoyed castle of the winds a lot more than many newer rpg games   ;Quote:Original post by RavuyaMy game only has RPG elements (e.g. stats to try and improve the replay value); RPG purists would shriek and throw their 3rd edition AD&D manuals at it.(Side rant, off topic)That's why I hate the term RPG :)  Role Playing?  You play a role in Mario!  AD&D is a stat-driven rules system that is best integrated into action and strategy games.  In Final Fantasy you don't even play a role, you control a group of characters who each have a predetermined role in a story.Anyway, my point with this off topic rant is to say that RPG purists can suck it.  If it was good for your gameplay, then good for you!  :)(End off topic rant)Quote:Original post by Kazeid just like to comment i enjoyed castle of the winds a lot more than many newer rpg gamesThat game was alot of fun :)   ;Quote:Original post by Ravuya[...]RPG purists would shriek and throw their 3rd edition AD&D manuals at it.[...]Of course they'd throw their AD&D manuals - they certainly wouldn't want to throw away any of their RPG supplies =-P   ;Quote:Original post by ExtrariusQuote:Original post by Ravuya[...]RPG purists would shriek and throw their 3rd edition AD&D manuals at it.[...]Of course they'd throw their AD&D manuals - they certainly wouldn't want to throw away any of their RPG books =-PI always enjoy it when a reader picks up one of my less obvious jokes. Help yourself to a gold star.I'd make a Xbox360 Shadowrun joke here, but it'd be like beating a clown.   ;  The first RPGs (actually I can't provide an RPG example, but I can give games like Wolfenstein 3D and Biomenace as an example but there probably were RPGs in those days too), weren't made with huge teams and budgets at all, only with a few people, 1 programmer, 1 level designer, a few graphics artists, and that's almost it.And those games weren't any worse than modern games, I'd even say that some were better.So why can't a beginning developer try to make an RPG game? Make a tile engine, make NPC interaction and a little quest, that's very possible, even if it won't be near a commercial game.   ;Quote:Original post by LodeSo why can't a beginning developer try to make an RPG game? Make a tile engine, make NPC interaction and a little quest, that's very possible, even if it won't be near a commercial game.Of course it's possible, but his point is that perhaps you shouldn't, because there's wads of content to it (100+ hour gameplay times anyone?) and it's a crowded "market".   ;Quote:Original post by RavuyaQuote:Original post by LodeSo why can't a beginning developer try to make an RPG game? Make a tile engine, make NPC interaction and a little quest, that's very possible, even if it won't be near a commercial game.Of course it's possible, but his point is that perhaps you shouldn't, because there's wads of content to it (100+ hour gameplay times anyone?) and it's a crowded "market".Honestly, how many games have 100+ hours of true content.  I'm not talking filler (like pure grinding).  Actual, real, content.IE: Cheat to give your character max skills & stats in everything, and watch how that Final Fantasy style game turns from a 100 hour game into 2 hours.Anyways, back on topic, why RPGs?  Because that's the fad right now.  When I first joined GameDev in 2000, and when I was visiting its predecessor, the usual topic wasn't "I need help making the next big RPG", rather, "I need help making the next Quake/Unreal Tournament".  And sometimes its good to let people fail on their own, and come up with ideas that are better suited to what they want.   ;Quote:Original post by NytegardAnd sometimes its good to let people fail on their own, and come up with ideas that are better suited to what they want.Oh yes, of course. I believe that JBourrie was getting tired of seeing all the RPG projects kicking around. I know a few very qualified and talented developers who have had their tiny spirits crushed by not being able to produce the reams of content an average RPG would want.   