   Linus Torvalds, Unprofessional?
  I was reading this, this and this post.What does gamedev think of his completely unprofessional attitude?Quite frankly, it disgusts me enough that I'm considering replacing my use of linux with one of the BSD's. I'd rather not rely on software overseen by someone this unprofessional. Those posts, IMHO, make him come across as an incompetent fool. The whole gpl/bsd thing that was going on recently doesn't help either.Comments?EDIT: I explain my views in a post below..[Edited by - issch on September 8, 2007 9:17:19 AM]
  Actually, he answer to stupidities the same way than I would have answered them. Frankly, someone comes and he suddenly tells him "you are a dinosaur, you're still using C, lol" or "you should use C++; your reasons for using C are BS". I would have been even more harsh than him to be honnest.Well, he dislikes C++ (although IMHO he doesn't have much idea about what he dislikes in C++; his examples are a bit wrong in that respect), he thinks that C is a great language (and in many way it is), and he's harsh with annoying morons. I don't feel that it's unprofessional - and he is certainly not an incompetent fool.And frankly, you are probably using softwares made by people you wouldn't even speak too if they wanted. If you want to replace your Linux by a BSD then go on, but don't say that it's because of Linus' attitude - that's a very very bad excuse. At least, it's quite an unprofessional one [grin].   ;  Meh. It's an argument on a newsgroup. He has valid opinions and backs them up. He's a bit aggressive, but I wouldn't call it unprofessional.Acting in a unprofessional manner begins with childishness, personal attacks, insulting people's mothers, etc.   ;  Probably authentic. Torvalds is known for his aggressive argumentation. He himself admits this also. As he puts it, he is not a nice person and flames people to see reactions and to get actual opinions. So, in effect he wants to see if someone is standing behind one's words or just playing a word game.I for one don't have problem with his attitude -- I don't interact with him [grin]. But Torvalds has a valid point with C and portability and the problems with C++. It really annoys him when people come to explain about the superiority of C++ without first reading his comments on the validity of C versus C++ he has made time and a time again. Feel free to search for his argumentation regarding C and C++. Otherwise I can assure you Torvalds is a diamond hard professional and one of his main tasks is to actual create a good team working environment. In which he has allegedly succeeded.   ;Quote:Original post by Emmanuel DelogetActually, he answer to stupidities the same way than I would have answered them. Frankly, someone comes and he suddenly tells him "you are a dinosaur, you're still using C, lol" or "you should use C++; your reasons for using C are BS". I would have been even more harsh than him to be honnest.Well, he dislikes C++ (although IMHO he doesn't have much idea about what he dislikes in C++; his examples are a bit wrong in that respect), he thinks that C is a great language (and in many way it is), and he's harsh with annoying morons. I don't feel that it's unprofessional - and he is certainly not an incompetent fool.I never said he was wrong, I just feel that the way he acts in those posts, he comes across as completely unprofessional (he bashes all C++ users because of one moron?? how is that not unprofessional?) and for the guy in charge of the linux kernel, which is used by many many people, businesses included, around the world, I'd really expect a professional attitude, regardless of what dumb thing some moron says.Linux people often seem to wonder why more people don't use Linux, but if their leader, as such, is this unprofessional when someone challenges their decisions, what do they expect. I agree that he needed to respond, but he should have done so without the insults and maybe giving some more concrete examples of why he feels like he does. By not doing so, to me at least, he comes across as incompetent. Obviously you do not feel the same and I can respect that, I just expected a little more from Linus.Quote:Original post by Emmanuel DelogetIf you want to replace your Linux by a BSD then go on, but don't say that it's because of Linus' attitude - that's a very very bad excuse. At least, it's quite an unprofessional one [grin].Yes, but I am not the one in charge of a large and popular software development community either.As for the BSD comment, perhaps that's just me being tired this morning, I mean, I do quite like Linux as an OS, I'm just disappointed by Linus and by the removal of the bsd license from dual licensed bsd/gpl code by some of the linux/gpl guys. I felt the BSD guys handled this really well, while the linux people left a lot to be desired for. Again, maybe thats just me.Quote:Original post by Naurava kulkuriI for one don't have problem with his attitude -- I don't interact with him [grin]. But Torvalds has a valid point with C and portability and the problems with C++. It really annoys him when people come to explain about the superiority of C++ without first reading his comments on the validity of C versus C++ he has made time and a time again. Again, I'm not saying he is wrong, he has a point, but, for someone overseeing a project like this, I expected a little more. So, he admits that he is not a nice person, thats all very well and good, but when he is overseeing the development of the kernel running a popular OS, which is used by home users and professionals alike, should one not act a little less aggressive? Why could he not have said "I used C because portability is important to me and quite frankly, C++ still has portability issues". IMHO, that would have summed it up nicely, but instead he insults C++, which there was no need for, even though the other guy was a moron.EDIT: Corrected typos.[Edited by - issch on September 8, 2007 9:01:30 AM];  Let's get one thing straight *right now*: professionalism really has nothing to do with being right or wrong, it's how you choose to communicate with people. Linus Torvolds is the very definition of the Unprofessional Programmer, the Basement Dwelling Tech Guy who is so often lampooned in the popular media.Everyone can be nice the first time they are asked a stupid question. The difference lies in how one responds to the 1,000th time one is asked a stupid question.   ;Quote:Original post by isschQuote:Original post by Naurava kulkuriI for one don't have problem with his attitude -- I don't interact with him [grin]. But Torvalds has a valid point with C and portability and the problems with C++. It really annoys him when people come to explain about the superiority of C++ without first reading his comments on the validity of C versus C++ he has made time and a time again. Again, I'm not saying he is wrong, he has a point, but, for someone overseeing a project like this, I expected a little more. So, he admits that he is not a nice person, thats all very well and good, but when he is overseeing the development of the kernel running a popular OS, which is used by home users and professionals alike, should one not act a little less aggressive? Why could he not have said "I used C because portability is important to me and quite frankly, C++ still has portability issues". IMHO, that would have summed it up nicely, but instead he insults C++, which there was no need for, even though the other guy was a moron.He is not very diplomatic usually. That is true and I agree with you. On the other hand he can be polite if he wants to. There was a thread recently on different nationalities and mentalities, see Cultural misunderstandings and business. Partially he has this rather naughty Nordic/Finnish habit of being rather serious with words. For me asking "How are you today?" literally means I'd like to know. The same with "I love it", I really love something in that case (can't, by the way, remember a single time I've said that in Finnish). Now, writing about BS and dinosaurs literally (or semi-literally) means that to Torvalds, I think. Think of a western movies or vikings. One has to watch for the mouth. If you are going to a pub in Finland, I can't overstate the importance of being polite. People aren't usually that humorous towards even jokingly expressed insults from strangers. [grin] Not to say Linus would be that polite for the 1000th same question over and over again. Probably he will be not. [grin]Linux is not, by the way again, responsible of the public relations of Linux as an operating system. He just oversees the kernel development.   ;This guy does a MUCH better job of answering the same question as Torvolds.   ;Quote:Original post by capn_midnightThis guy does a MUCH better job of answering the same question as Torvolds.Thats the kind of response I would have expected.Quote:Original post by Naurava kulkuriHe is not very diplomatic usually. That is true and I agree with you. On the other hand he can be polite if he wants to. There was a thread recently on different nationalities and mentalities, see Cultural misunderstandings and business. Partially he has this rather naughty Nordic/Finnish habit of being rather serious with words. For me asking "How are you today?" literally means I'd like to know. The same with "I love it", I really love something in that case (can't, by the way, remember a single time I've said that in Finnish). Now, writing about BS and dinosaurs literally (or semi-literally) means that to Torvalds, I think. Think of a western movies or vikings. One has to watch for the mouth. If you are going to a pub in Finland, I can't overstate the importance of being polite. People aren't usually that humorous towards even jokingly expressed insults from strangers. [grin] Not to say Linus would be that polite for the 1000th same question over and over again. Probably he will be not. [grin]So, you are saying that it is mainly due to the cultural difference, rather than that he consciously decided that he would be harsh and aggressive. Ok, I can respect that.I admit that I over-reacted somewhat, but surely you (as in the general population of gamedev) can see where I'm coming from. Also, not having had a proper nights sleep in a while may have contributed, so apologies to whomever feels my post was wrong or unfounded.   ;Quote:Original post by isschQuote:Original post by capn_midnightThis guy does a MUCH better job of answering the same question as Torvolds.Thats the kind of response I would have expected.Quote:Original post by Naurava kulkuriHe is not very diplomatic usually. That is true and I agree with you. On the other hand he can be polite if he wants to. There was a thread recently on different nationalities and mentalities, see Cultural misunderstandings and business. Partially he has this rather naughty Nordic/Finnish habit of being rather serious with words. For me asking "How are you today?" literally means I'd like to know. The same with "I love it", I really love something in that case (can't, by the way, remember a single time I've said that in Finnish). Now, writing about BS and dinosaurs literally (or semi-literally) means that to Torvalds, I think. Think of a western movies or vikings. One has to watch for the mouth. If you are going to a pub in Finland, I can't overstate the importance of being polite. People aren't usually that humorous towards even jokingly expressed insults from strangers. [grin] Not to say Linus would be that polite for the 1000th same question over and over again. Probably he will be not. [grin]So, you are saying that it is mainly due to the cultural difference, rather than that he consciously decided that he would be harsh and aggressive. Ok, I can respect that. Probably a bit that also. But as I stated already, Torvalds is not generally a pleasant person. He assumes one has done the homework and the use of proper language. Even in that case he may be a bit difficult to deal with. He is not a people person. What I've read from the interviews, he doesn't have that many personal friends or people he interacts with either. Only some very close ones.Quote:I admit that I over-reacted somewhat, but surely you (as in the general population of gamedev) can see where I'm coming from. Also, not having had a proper nights sleep in a while may have contributed, so apologies to whomever feels my post was wrong or unfounded. I don't think your post was unfounded. I agree you in that the reply was harsher that needed to be. Occasionally I don't even know why he takes the time and replies to people if he doesn't like his time being wasted. Maybe it is he feels insulted and replies because of that.I just wanted to give you an idea as to why he seem to be that impolite most of the time. But as commented already some few times, Linus Torvalds doesn't have nice (public) personality in general and he doesn't really care of it.   