   Are we truly concious?
  In other words, could a sufficiently complex deterministic artificial mind fool itself into thinking it had free will and was self aware?   ********"It was this spirit of national efficiency in the Circumlocution Office that had gradually led to its having something to do with everything.""OSS projects have been able to gain a foothold in many server applications because of the wide utility of highly commoditized, simple protocols. By extending these protocols and developing new protocols, we can deny OSS projects entry into the market."Micro$oft internal memo 
  Are you an idiot?  Maybe you''re not conscious, but I certainly am.  I know I am because I know I am, it is the way it is you moron.I''m so tired of this "are we REALLY conscious?" shit.  You are concious because you are, if you don''t know that you''re conscious you are questioning an axiom to your very existense, do us a favor and start accepting the things you KNOW to be true, or go slit your throat, because it doesn''t matter you''re not concious anyways.THAT was to address the IDIOTIC title of this thread.To address the actuall content of the OP:There is some worldly spirituality guy who thinks all things are concious based on their responses, and complexity of reaction and for higher conciousnesses, "thought".So he would argue that all things are concious according to these basic rules.  Trees are concious because their leaves go upwards when the sun is up.  It is the very reactions that make them conscious.I think he is mistaken, and that conciousness is given by God to us and IS us.  We ARE our conciousness.  Conciousness is us, it is an axiom of us and without it we wouldn''t be us.   Far too much time has passedFor us to lament that we were in love. ;quote:Original post by Senses777  Are you an idiot?  Maybe you''re not conscious, but I certainly am.  I know I am because I know I am, it is the way it is you moron.I''m so tired of this "are we REALLY conscious?" shit.  You are concious because you are, if you don''t know that you''re conscious you are questioning an axiom to your very existense, do us a favor and start accepting the things you KNOW to be true, or go slit your throat, because it doesn''t matter you''re not concious anyways.THAT was to address the IDIOTIC title of this thread. Wow, could you be any more nasty?Relax, if you don''t like the thread you shouldn''t post.  Its not like you are forced to participate. ;  I don''t understand how the ability of us to make an AI ''think''(respond in a way such that we believe that it thinks) that it has ''free will'' and is ''self aware'' is in any way related to humans being ''truly conscious''. Perhaps you could explain the relationship? ;quote:Original post by bigbadboo  Wow, could you be any more nasty?Relax, if you don''t like the thread you shouldn''t post.  Its not like you are forced to participate.No, but threads like these pop up all the time. The question gets discussed thoroughly, nothing conclusive is arrived at (those who ask axiomatic questions generally can never be swayed by any amount of logic) and the thread peters out. A few weeks/months later, we do it all over again. After a while it really begins to grate...@walkingcarcass:Look up the term "axiom." Some things can not be deconstructed (like the concept of a number; it can be separated from physical quantity, but one that is achieved - and consequent realizations like the axiomatic truth of "2 + 2 = 4" reached - there is nothing further). Your consciousness "is"; questioning it is futile.By analogy, if our consciousness is beyond definition or reasoning, then what kind of system could be created to achieve the same? It''s possible in the sense that almost all things are possible, but it''s extremely unlikely. ;  [You have been moderated. Have a nice day!]   [edited by - Oluseyi on December 18, 2003 8:58:59 AM][Darn.]   [edited by - Voice Of Tango on December 18, 2003 9:17:05 AM];  Free will is an illusion anyway, and what exactly does self-aware mean?  ;quote:Original post by Voice Of Tango   <What Voice of Tango said>Exactly! "Baby-killer is a bad word though. Notice how as soon as you say it, you think negative things." - Peon  [edited by - Oluseyi on December 18, 2003 9:00:34 AM];  I do not apologise for my nastiness.  It is the very questioning of things like "are we concious" that is the downfall of one''s thinking.  Maybe if I am angry enough, it will stick in your head and you''ll move on to thought that is productive.Don''t dispute the existense of something you can actually KNOW.  You KNOW your own conciousness to be an axiom, build on it, ponder it.  Don''t be an idiot. ;  Please stop writing "axiom". 