   What is your connotation of the word Programmer?
  The dictionary says: Quote:pro·gram·mer or pro·gram·er   Audio pronunciation of "programmer" ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (prgrmr)n.    One who programs, especially:  1. Computer Science. One who writes computer programs.  2. One who prepares or writes instructional programs.But there is hardly any job in the sciences in which it is not required that you be able to (and do) write programs of varying complexities for yourself. Mathematicians, Physicists,  neuroscientists, Chemists, Biologists, Psychologists and all the different types of engineers do.  Indeed, for some of those, a great deal of time is spent writing programs (be it in Matlab, Mathematica, C++ or Lisp) to analyze and manipulate data and handle testing (of humans for example as a psychologist).  So it would seem that a programmer need not be a computer scientist by training and nor are they necessarily software engineers. In fact, it would seem that programmers do not necessarily need any formal training at all.It is valid to call a 15 year old who has been programming for 2 years a programmer. But not one who has been carpenting for the same amount of time. Even  prefixing the term hobby before programmer has a much better connotation than before Writer or Biologist. It categorizes seemingly with art. No?So what is a programmer? The term seems ambigious to me.This was motivated by the Too much C++ thread. The answer to which is there is no correct beginner langauge unless one counts No Language. You cannot program well in any language until you can program without one. And thus in all[Edited by - Daerax on December 13, 2005 11:25:09 PM]
  It is worth noting that the definition says "Computer Science" not "Computer Scientist."  I believe its intent was to indicate that the definition comes from computer science, rather than an attempt to limit the term to just that singular field.CM   ;  True, but I still dont know what a programmer is. There is just a vague area that resists attempts to fit it to a defined shape. meh, Ill just leave it as one of those words whose meaning can only be infered by its context.   ;Quote:Original post by DaeraxTrue, but I still dont know what a programmer is. There is just a vague area that resists attempts to fit it to a defined shape.One who writes programs seems reasonable to me.  You can further specialize by adding additional words [like hobby, as you suggested], but that seems sufficient as the root definition.CM   ;Quote:Original post by DaeraxTrue, but I still dont know what a programmer is. There is just a vague area that resists attempts to fit it to a defined shape.Doesn't seem that way to me. A programmer: one who programs. Of course a physicist is a programmer, just like a plumber is a solderer and a pilot is a hat-wearer. It's a description which serves to include, not to exclude. Being a programmer doesn't mean you aren't anything else.However: if we refer to a plumber as a solderer, we are being oblique, because a plumber does not spend much of his time soldering. The reason we call a physicist a physicist, rather than a programmer, is because it is a more apt description. There's no need to get any more complicated than that.   ;  A programmer is just that, a programmer.  Yes, sometimes neuroscientists or biologists are programmers.  Mathematicians are very often programmers.  Of course, there are varying degree of competence between programmers.  Some non-scientists are 'specialist' programmer, in that they make programming their job.  They are often more skilled at modelling and solving a given algorithmic problem.In the same vein, some computer scientists, while being programmers, are no more apt at programming than your average mathematician.Then comes the nebulous 'software engineer' term and the world asplodes. [grin]   ;Quote:Original post by SneftelQuote:Original post by DaeraxTrue, but I still dont know what a programmer is. There is just a vague area that resists attempts to fit it to a defined shape.Doesn't seem that way to me. A programmer: one who programs. Of course a physicist is a programmer, just like a plumber is a solderer and a pilot is a hat-wearer. It's a description which serves to include, not to exclude. Being a programmer doesn't mean you aren't anything else.However: if we refer to a plumber as a solderer, we are being oblique, because a plumber does not spend much of his time soldering. The reason we call a physicist a physicist, rather than a programmer, is because it is a more apt description. There's no need to get any more complicated than that.Yes, I see your point. I guess Im not thinking very clearly today. My issue though is mainly to do with the connotative baggage that the term programmer carries along with it. Unlike hat wearer or solderer or most all other jobs I can think of, whose definition in my mind are relatively clear and unambigious, programmer seems to be a highly flexible labeling. A physicist programs computers for her work and is thus a computer programmer just like a person who wears a hat is a hat wearer. This clashes against my created schema for a computer programmer though, since there are those who are titled simply computer programmer. But you are right, perhaps I waste time thinking about such things.   ;Quote:Original post by jfclavetteA programmer is just that, a programmer.  Yes, sometimes neuroscientists or biologists are programmers.  Mathematicians are very often programmers.  Of course, there are varying degree of competence between programmers.  Some non-scientists are 'specialist' programmer, in that they make programming their job.  They are often more skilled at modelling and solving a given algorithmic problem.In the same vein, some computer scientists, while being programmers, are no more apt at programming than your average mathematician.Then comes the nebulous 'software engineer' term and the world asplodes. [grin]Just like a (generic fantasy) Ranger is an archer but not as good an archer as an archer? But then there are mathematicians who are extremely good programmers. See for example, Dave Eberly. While there are some paid computer programmers who are horrid at it.At least you (all) have helped to clear up for me that a computer programmer need not soley program computers to be titled such. Yeah, software engineers add much confusion. :(   ;Quote:Original post by DaeraxUnlike hat wearer or solderer or most all other jobs I can think of, whose definition in my mind are relatively clear and unambigious, programmer seems to be a highly flexible labeling.How is "programmer" any more or less flexible than "hat wearer"?"Does he program?" "Yeah." "Then he's a programmer.""Does he wear hats?" "No." "Then he's not a hat wearer."   ;  A beginner programmer is still a programmer. If you've programmed a computer at all, you are a programmer. The label doesn't imply any particular level of skill which I think is what you're getting caught up with. That said, perhaps labelling a programmer as a 'guru' (if they feel like being pretentious) is as close as you'd get to your carpenter example.   