   Tricky Combat Design - Long Post
  This is my first post on GameDev.net but I read as many posts and their replies as I can in regards to subjects I find interesting. I've never really needed to reply to a post either because I'm also taking in new information from the thread or by the time I finish reading, anything I could say has been said. I only tell you this because I don't want anyone to think I'm attempting to use or take advantage of the support I may get from this thread/GameDev.net, Thankyou in advance.I've finally started to get deep into the design of a combat system I've always wished to play and I'm now getting my thoughts sidetracked by other factors in my games design. I'm hoping to get a little help by identifying problems or being told of similar games that I might be able to test or look into that have a common style or goal.e.g. Rakion (http://rakion.softnyx.net/) F2P -> Micro creditsI'll give a rough guide of the relationships the game features have on each other that play a role in the combat system so you can get a basic understanding without hopefully forcing your train of thought down a certain track.Attributes make up Finite Resources.Attacks are specific to what Weapon/Magic Type you have ready.Character Skills progress with practice/use unlocking extra abilities/attacks/spells overtime as well as Talent Points at specific milestones e.g. every 50 Skill points. They can then be added to the unlocked features within a skill to grant extra bonuses.I'll also try to give an example of how I see the style of the game playing out as its important to why some things might just not work.Main portal is a 3rd Person View quite close behind the character.Combat will be all Manual, each strike, active blocking and aiming so there isn't any Auto-Target function.I'll stop now with the details before this gets any longer. So what I'm really looking for is:Games with a similar style of combatSkills or Attacks that you think won't work with this systemAny problems you foresee or know of within combat gamesAny ideas in general to help build upon this systemAgain thankyou in advance and I'm sorry if anything is still too vague but please post your questions and I'll be sure to answer them as best I can.   
  This idea dosn't particularily impress me, because it's the blueprint for Many recent games already released. It has the makings of a good action-RPG combat system and character development, but I'm afraid it'll be very similar to other games of its genre. Give it a twist!Making a manual combat system like the one you're describing can be challenging to pull off well. The Witcher (3rd person) made a pretty good combat system. I found it a little confusing sometimes, and frustrating, but I think you should take a look at it. Oblivion (1st/3rd person) also has a really good combat system, which is mostly manual.   ;  Age of Conan did a combat system that relied on keypress sequences and timings. There was some good but lost potential, and some bad but present aggrivations.The press-a-sequence idea could have been interesting if each press led to several possible other keypresses, so that there was a tree of choices. But instead, they were linear strings of timed presses -- something to be keyboard macro'ed. And that's what happened: Those with keyboard macros could fight, those without just stood there with stalled sequences, trying again and getting killed. It generated significant animosity towards using gamer keyboards, which is counter-productive to a healthy market.   ;  I know how unimpressive the system sounds and reading back over my original post I can see how hard it is to imagine what I have in mind. So I'll continue by add more details and explaining the differences between the comparisons.The Witcher is a game that falls into the same pitfall most other combat games do, the animations mean next to nothing besides looking good. My game design focuses on accuracy being a check on a hit box within the player and if hit the damage is figured out depending on what state they are in be it either attacking, blocking, parrying etc. Another major difference from the Witcher to what I have planned is that I'll use a fixed 3rd person camera with no cursor on the screen, the mouse movement becomes your way of looking around and aiming. A "look" mode is being implemented and will be toggled to by holding in Left-Ctrl for example which brings the cursor up on screen for specific targeting/looking at things but players won't be able to use most attacks or movements in this mode.I love Morrowind and bought Oblivion before I even owned an xbox360 but the combat system in the game is one I don't think very highly of. Its basically impossible to die within the game because of it and the limited attacks within melee make it more of a hack'n'slash rather then the technical fighter I hope for. I love the stories and fun side quests but the combat to me was something I wish I could skip most times, more so as you become a higher level.I followed the creation of AoC for such a long time and I hoped that I would be playing it for years because of the combat system. It just didn't work. Again the animations aren’t a true representation of what’s actually happening and with the manual blocking system they implemented it made it difficult at times to fully block an attack without knowing class attacks/combos off by heart.For anyone who hasn't played the game Rakion which I mentioned in my first post but likes this kind of system I suggest you give it a go. I haven't played in awhile but it was something I played and enjoyed a lot. It’s just a simple game with a lot of bad design choices but it’s a relatively small download and you can experience all of the game without paying anything, you just won't beat most of the people that do ^^I've based my design from Rakion and true fighting games, I've gone back looking at the classic 2D fighters right through to the newer fighters like Tekken and even Street Fighter IV. My biggest problem I fear is coming up with the balance of where the power actually is.Hope this clears up some more questions and gives a better idea as to what I'm trying to achieve but if you still have questions please just post or if you would like to help out in its design feel free to PM me, Thanks.   ;  Hi I am impressed by your enthusiasm :)Your thought was exactly the one that me and my korean developers shared in designing action based MMORPG in 2005 (didn't work out well with console minded SEGA though).Maybe I can give you some pointers as a fellow developer, however I need some more details on the game structure itself.Are you thinking about MMO (one with persistent world) or MO (one with P2P)?   ;  My goal for the design is to make the combat system work as best as possible since other major features for the game require it. I do aim to create a MMO one day, with technology and middleware becoming better all the time I believe there will be a day where Indie developers will compete on the same ground as huge commercial MMO's.At the moment I'm aiming to make the combat a game of its own and then implement features from that starting point. My idea and goal for a very basic release would be a lobby based multiplayer game which focuses on training players in the way of combat. I say training because it will act as a Beta test for the released version of the combat mechanics and help to tweak and find any unbalance before combat becomes such a major foundation of the entire game.As more features are implemented players will have a bigger role in tweaking, giving feedback and ideas to help with further development. The basic game client/server will allow a lot of testing to be done without having to spend millions ahead of time making a persistent world and all the extra content and also allow for player base to form early and help shape the game.I say client server at the moment but Peer2peer is an option for what I have in mind for early development as well, which would save on expenses. I do have some marketing ideas and goals for the end release to make the game affordable for everyone but still maintain a high quality server.Hope that helps and if you have any other questions feel free to ask ^^ Thanks.   ;  Honestly, the first thing that comes to mind with what you describe is a boxing game.Just take out the gloves and slip in weapons and it seems this is what you are after; which was somewhat what AoC originally sounded like (but with moving camera angles) and decided to back out of later.So I keep thinking, instead of looking at complicated combo-mashing systems like Tekken, why not take a look at boxing titles where the combinations are fare smaller, but tactically must be diverse; as well the stats of the character's must be robust and versatile according to training and point spending.In a sense, you are looking at making the beta very much a kata of this.Another game that seems appropriate would be the Bushido Blade series (which you have undoubtedly played considering your interests).Seems mixing these two concepts together would produce the atmosphere you are looking for.I'm not sure if you are having magic or not, or how you are thinking of mixing it in such a highly strict systems.   ;  Key Points1) latency and syncAs we know, MMOs (that is, C-S structure) are way slower than MOs (P2P). If you are planning a fast paced action, you SHOULD go for MO, or the game will be a fast-input-but-not-so-accurate-output kind of game.2) benefit as an ONLINE actionBiggest concern of all should be WHY we should implement such detailed action in really frustrating online environment, since all the cool stuff in offline environment will NOT WORK FULLY. (If players like really good sync and high action based game mechanics, they'd simply go buy another console action game)3) Action VS Character GrowthBiggest dilemma in designing online action game would be confronting irony between action components and character growth. For example, usually in action games, the actual growth takes place in users itself (control skills), where almost all of the online RPGs pick character growth (better items, level up) which are user's possessions that lure players to come back to play again.These things may well be considered before actually designing the action portion of the game.Let's hear about what you think on this, and continue :)   ;  Regarding lag Robert; check your inbox. ;)   ;  I'm really glad for the help, it really is helping honestly, and I’ll address the questions and answer anything in the order that I read the posts so I'll start with:Griffin_Kemp, one form of combat will be unarmed and players can train that so boxing and martial arts techniques will play a role in the game. Each skill will offer something others don't, with unarmed granting more powerful grip attacks vs fencing which offers further reach with its weapons and a higher chance for critical strikes for example.I'm glad you mentioned "complicated combo-mashing" because I wanted this thread to help make sure I didn't make the system too complicated. The fact it's aimed for PC and the 3rd person view I have selected should help limit button confusion while still allow for a complicated and skilful system.I know the original post was very vague but I'll explain a little more now. I have six attributes which make up the three finite resources, health, stamina and mana for a character. Each skill has attributes assigned to them so training in them also helps raise your attributes along with the skill itself. Training skills unlocks your more powerful abilities since even early in the game players can use a weapon and wield combos like real life but the more proficient you become in a skill you unlock talent points. These talent points make a big difference to your abilities and allow characters to focus on the abilities they use or need to fit their style of play. The character development alone is quite complex and that doesn't include any added effects from items either.Which areas do you think are most important for combat?e.g. 50% Player Skill, 25% Character template, 25% items etc"In a sense, you are looking at making the beta very much a kata of this."- I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this so if you could rephrase I'd like to answer.The Bushido Blade series isn't something I've looked into or played and since my internet is shaped till 1am I've only had a chance to look at one youtube video but it shows promise and I'll make sure to look into the mechanics later on.I do plan on having magic skills available to the players as well as ranged attacks like archery and throwing weapons since they all basically work under the same principle. Attacks will vary in the way they are applied within the game but the user should eventually pick up on how attacks work for their character and what to expect from opponents by visual cues such e.g. 2-Handed sword combos or flaming hands representing red magic.Now to answer Limdul, for the latency and sync issue I know MMO's are very demanding on bandwidth and it will be a long time if ever my ideas make it to that level but I still plan to design skills in a way that do favour out of sync combat with passive bonuses plus I've never been a fan of super fast paced fighting so I plan for a slower system which should help players and the server.I'm creating this combat mechanic for this platform and style of game because I personally want to play it and believe others will too. I'm not trying to make this the ultimate fighting game for players who enjoy the super fast paced action of most console fighters but instead move away from what’s become the standard combat system present in most MMO's today.As I've mentioned before the combat part of the game plays an important role in almost all the other aspects. I hope to find a balance between all the features in the game that not only makes a player feel like their character is needed or the items they posses but that their skills are important in combat. Other major features then focus on their supportive aspects like Crafting with the economy and my own Community system with social interaction. So think along the lines that as the character grows and gains within the game so will the players as new options open up for them to experience and master.I'm sorry for such a delayed response but hope this answers everything but again if not, feel free to ask more. Thanks again to everyone