   Project: Alter Ego - Leveling/Stat Gain Mechanic
This is my second post/share on Project: Alter Ego. Thankfully this concept/mechanic is alot simpler so I won't be flamed for the length  ?§• ??§? In this post I'll be covering my proposal for a stat gain system which I've dubbed The "Growth" System (or just Growth). It was largely inspired by common sources as FFC (Fable & Elder Scrolls) but has one more notable contributor which I would like to bring attention to. ?§• ??§? This last contributor is a Indie/Hobbyist developed game with humble beginings which is still alive and kicking today. Although I don't play it very much nowadays I still have a large of amount of admiration, respect and interest in the main concepts executed within this game. The name of that game is Eternal Lands. You can read about it here - http://el-wiki.net/ If you're interested in playing it/exposing yourself to what I believe are some great concepts you can download and play for free here - http://www.eternal-lands.com/ ?§• ??§? The "Growth" System The Second key feature is my idea on a leveling/stat gain system which I've dubbed Growth. The Growth system is the core of the Mastery system and vice versa.  (Refer to my upcoming post on the "Mastery" system to see exactly what I mean.)  Basically, your ego develops his base stats according to what he does instead of the traditional assignment of points to specific stats. In other words you have to use what you want to develop just as you would in person.  For example:  - Wielding a sword and shield will bolster your Strength (your physical power and ability to lift and wield larger weapons and wear heavier armor).  -All physically taxing activities will slowly build your Stamina (how quickly you fatigue).  -Using daggers will increase your Agility (how fast you attack and your overall movement speed) and slightly boost your Dexterity (your overall control of your body, accuracy and nimbleness).  -A wielder of a bow would gain Dexterity primarily with some Agility.  -Just the same a Weaver (aka caster) would gain Will (your "spiritual stamina" and the equivalent to mana in A.E.) after unleashing a spell. Weavers would also gain Wisdom (your overall understanding. this would affect the potency of cast in the long run and eventually help further your proficiency with the energies you're wielding. Other games use the name Intelligence for their equivalent) while gathering and molding energy.  ?§• ??§? Aside from all of those active ways of increasing specific stats, I've thought of a few ways (and am still in the process of applying more) that you could passively gain a specific stat.  For instance: Wearing heavy metal armor would passively increase your Strength and cause you to fatigue easier which would push your Stamina to develop faster than it normally would.  All the crafting related ways of gaining stats can also be considered a passive stat gaining method.  (Refer to my upcoming "Crafting/Profession system" post to understand in full) ?§• ??§? One of the last Growth related ideas I'm still developing is a way of gaining permanent Health. The means of gaining would revolve around a sort of Scarring/Callous system. By Scarring/Callous I mean you'd have to take damage and recover from it to gain some permanent health.  In order to avoid classes such as Weaver or Rogue types from becoming too durable I plan on adding a simple deterrent mechanic. The lighter the armor class the higher the chance of being critically hit which would drive the lighter classes away from trying to take too many hits or build too much health comfortably. Other means of control will be applied to this system although this coupled with the Hybrid Checks/Balances I mentioned in my first post should suffice for now. ?§• ??§? Once again, I would like to thank any of you reading this ahead of time for taking your time to read what I’ve written as well as for any feedback that may come along with it which is much appreciated. ?§• ??§? Alfred L. aka SinisterPride ?§• ??§? First post - Project: Alter Ego - An introduction
just a thought here, gaining stats just by wearing stuff opens you up for exploits such as "i'll just equip this sword and shield and go afk for 2 days, and when i come back i'll have a large amount of stats gained", or something my friend did in Skyrim, "i'll go to a low level dungeon, find some weak monster that has lower damage than my regeneration, go afk and gain huge amounts of permanent health".You need to be really carefull with passive stat gains because players *will* find a way to exploit that system. If the stats are gained on use, then you need to clearly define what that use is so players can't do the 'use' while afk.For instance, walking isn't a valid 'use' as it can also be easily exploited (think walking into a wall or walking in circles, which can be done using some smart keyboard/mouse macros). Casting a spell alone also isn't a valid 'use' because players will cast spells into empty space/walls in some safe environment and gain stats easily without any risk.;  This kind of 'use it to improve it' skill system appeals to me. As Strewya has mentioned, the biggest challenge in designing such a system is in preventing  players from gaming/grinding it. Psychologically, players often feel compelled to follow the course of action which they believe will most strengthen their character. This can be true even when the 'optimal' approach seriously detracts from a player's enjoyment of the game.Ideally players would play the game according to their tastes, and your system would allow their character to naturally grow into the role and become appropriately specialised. In reality they may be driven to laborious, repetitive activity (spamming fireballs at walls, for example) if they realise that it is the most efficient way to develop their stats.So, to echo Strewya, I suggest that you need to control this tendency. Think very carefully about:- which actions contribute to experience (e.g. perhaps not simply casting a spell, but something more involved which is difficult for the player to contrive, like killing 2 enemies of the appropriate elemental type with the corresponding elemental AOE spell)- limiting the rate of experience gain (by a hard limit, or choosing events which are necessarily infrequent as triggers for experience gain)- other clever ways of encouraging the player to play in a 'natural' way, rather than constantly optimising their character growth   ;  "Walking into a wall using a smart keyboard/mouse macros"I used to just put a heavy marble on the W key...   ;Thank you for being the first few to respond. It gets the ball rolling   ?§• ??§? Very valid points, points that I was aware of while working on the more technical aspects of the design theory/concept. What you mentioned is somewhat displayed in Elder scrolls IV: Oblivion. The "Athleticism" and "Stealth" skills could be largely exploited with similar methods as you mentioned. I have a few propositions in the form of checks and balances to avoid those methods of exploits: - All passive stat gains have varying conditions which must be met for them to activate.- On top of these varying conditions, passive stat gain is in terms of decimal gain. In other words you gain FAR less passive expierience/stat from the passive methods than you do from the active ones. There was one last thing I thought out but its on the more technical side and most players wouldn't see it. Its a "anti-macro" code built into the game. Essentially it works on the principle of algorithm detection. The code will constantly and passively monitor command inputs and will catch patterns when they repeat. This code posed a programming hazard because after a long period of recording the information has to be dumped or else the load is too much for the engine to process. I figured I could set a timer (its set for about 24 minutes or an ingame day) to dump the recorded commands and start monitoring all over again. This means a player (if they found out about the 24 min aspect of the code) would have to record a full 24 minutes worth of actions into a macro. If the code detects anything fishy, all stat gain (both passive and active) halt until the end of the 24 minute cycle. That means if people even try to grind in a cheesy exploitive way they get the boot lol ?§• ??§? The Callous and Scarring system was alot less confidently proposed as you may have seen. This is because as you said there are alot of rammifications and possible exploits when it comes to something along the lines of health. Especially when healing effects are taken into account. These were my propositions to implement the C&S mechanic while counteracting possible exploits: There are only two forms of healing within the game Although there is no dying in A.E. (its explained in the story/lore) you don't want to know about the "near death mechanics and penalties" they're harsh. Theres also no "loading to a previously safe state" to avoid dealing with recovery time either because an auto save mechanic is implemented for every 10% of health lost. Health regeneration in the common and traditional sense of gaming isn't a default mechanic in the world of A.E. The forms of healing are as follows: First aidIs time affected; you have to give a wound time to heal after properly dressing/tending to it. The game time to real world time ratio will be something along the lines of an hour in game equals a minute in real life. This should give you a sense of what a week of recovery would feel like if theres 24 minutes per game day. Extreme wounds can heal within moderate amounts of passive gameplay (in game week or two for a cauterized or stitched wound to show improvement) as long as you don't exert yourself and stay away from combat. Can you say passively forced way of suggesting exploration of other features?  It could cause some less patient people to shy away from the game but its my punishment for recklessness/attempting to exploit   This is the strongest deterent to exploiting the C&S system I could come up with because people will choose to be more cautious of how much damage they take in order to avoid such long periods of down time. Fiddling with crafts and such is fun but I myself wouldn't want to be forced to only play that way for the next hour due to being reckless. The other choice would be afking but who really wants to keep doing that because theyre failing at not taking damage?   MagicalThis comes in the form of a high level self cast technique. If you've read the weaver section in my first post on A.E. this will be easier to understand.  Magic induced healing comes in a few forms which encompass some low level and higher end techniques.  Lower end techniques include:  Magical Cauterization: You basically burn yourself to close a wound. Essentially you hurt yourself to keep yourself from reaching the near death state. Earthen Suture: Dirt bandade lol.. Its temporary so the effect breaks before any real recovery time occurs. The penalty here occurs when people realize they can cast it a few times and try to exploit it while not dressing their wound properly. Infection occurs and the rate your health was dropping from the wound increases. An antibiotics (antidote) as well as having to deal with tending to the wound now need to be dealt with. ?§• ??§? [spoiler alert] - I havent posted details about this advanced aspect of weaving. Theres a high end brach of weaving that allows for hybrid/combined use of the elements. I wont go into detail here but it is about to be exposed. ?§• ??§? Higher end Techniques include: Druids' Rejuvination: This is an advanced spell which takes a moderate amount of mastery in both Earth Weaving and Water Weaving. Aside from having mastery in both elements you would need to discover the spell (my upcoming post on skills/spells will explain this). The effect is a clean clay suture which closes the wound for as long as required. To limit use I employed a will drain mechanic while it is active. This only applys to the regeneration aspect of the spell. the suture works just as well as a bandage or cauterization and would stay in effect after the spell is no longer active. This hasn't been stated anywhere yet but, after you run out of will, you begin using health to fuel your spells. It also activates Health Regeneration (which isnt a constant/default mechanic in A.E. as I mentioned) up to 33% of your maximum health. Druids rejuvination is the ultimate healing spell. Due to its will draining mechanic as well as the slow rate of will recovery by default in A.E. the use of it is limited. Dragons' Heart: This is another advanced spell which takes moderate mastery of both Fire Weaving and Water Weaving. It is easier to attain but has a drawback built into it. The effect is cauterizing all of your wounds from the inside out which closes the wounds entirely while bringing you down to 5% Health. In other words you don't wanna do this on the run or mid fight. As in Druids' Rejuvination, you gain Health Regeneration up to 20% of your maximum health. It doesn't take a constant amount of will to use but the effect in place to keep it from being exploited is that your will drops down to 5% as well when your health does.  ?§• ??§? I hope this was sufficient to answer your questions   Again, thank you for being the first few to post, I really appreciate it  ?§• ??§? Sin;There was one last thing I thought out but its on the more technical side and most players wouldn't see it. Its a "anti-macro" code built into the game. Essentially it works on the principle of algorithm detection. The code will constantly and passively monitor command inputs and will catch patterns when they repeat. This code posed a programming hazard because after a long period of recording the information has to be dumped or else the load is too much for the engine to process. I figured I could set a timer (its set for about 24 minutes or an ingame day) to dump the recorded commands and start monitoring all over again. This means a player (if they found out about the 24 min aspect of the code) would have to record a full 24 minutes worth of actions into a macro. If the code detects anything fishy, all stat gain (both passive and active) halt until the end of the 24 minute cycle. That means if people even try to grind in a cheesy exploitive way they get the boot lolThis will actually punish legit players as well. When they find something that works for them, and they start manually repeating those actions because they dont have access to/dont know how to make macros, but find those actions are easy to repeat often for moderate gains, your script will see that as a repeating action, mistake it for a macro and deny the player any gains for their efforts, which to them will seem for no apparent reason (as it's hidden from them). And those repeating actions even might be a perfectly legit playstyle. I doubt you can ever predict all the actions every player will ever perform in your game, and build code to prevent exploits, but not actual player performed repeating actions, in a consistent and smart way. If you're trying to frustrate players, go right ahead :)As for your health/healing systems, you're basically punishing players with long wait times between combat actions because they 'might' use exploits. I'm assuming here that a sizeable part of your game is combat itself (assumption based on your introduction post), and having to wait a long time to continue playing that part of game because you're too beaten from the last fight is the wrong approach, and will turn players away from the game. Even legit players who are just not that good at fighting are forced to wait over 2.5 hours before their next combat encounter. And you said it yourself:The other choice would be afking but who really wants to keep doing that because theyre failing at not taking damage?People will rather play a fun game, than a game that punishes them for a seemingly normal (albeit unskillfull) play style. And judging by your proposal for combat in the introduction post, combat controls seem really complex (emphasis on 'seem'), which would only make the problem bigger, and because of that people will most likely either avoid combat altogether, or quit your game out of frustration/boredom.I do believe that without a prototype, your systems are too undefined and open for interpretation, which is why i'm giving you both legit players and an exploiting players perspective.;What you mentioned is somewhat displayed in Elder scrolls IV: Oblivion. The "Athleticism" and "Stealth" skills could be largely exploited with similar methods as you mentioned.Yes, and while reading your first post in this thread, I thought how I once trained my sneaking by walking against a wall while I was AFK (there was a sweet spot behind one of the guards in Imperial City.  However, Oblivion is entirely a single player game - where such exploits are generally not considered a big deal. I'm not 100% sure but from some of your descriptions it sounded like you may be doing a multiplayer game (correct me if I'm wrong) and any sort of exploits are looked down upon very harshly in multiplayer games. Even games like Borderlands (off the top of my head), which are not massively multiplayer, but rather co-op multiplayer, there's still considerable effort to eliminate such exploits, from both the majority of the community and the developers.;Man, what is it with people and having no tact in their wording? @Strewya Your words are a bit aggressive/confrontational. I know you most likely didn't mean any offense and there was none taken. But someone could easily get offended, especially when you're assuming you know something about their work for a fact but you only have a basic understanding. I can take the heat regardless, jus pointing it out. When they find something that works for them, and they start manually repeating those actions because they dont have access to/dont know how to make macros, but find those actions are easy to repeat often for moderate gains, your script will see that as a repeating action, mistake it for a macro and deny the player any gains for their efforts, which to them will seem for no apparent reason (as it's hidden from them). You're over simplifying my concept by assuming you know the extent of the anti macro code. I explained it in simple terms and left out as much fluff as possible cuz not everybody wants to hear the technical side of things. There are plenty of checks and balances/measures put in place to make sure it doesn't punish proper players. I won't go into details cuz I honestly don't like having to reiterate technical aspects when they are misunderstood (don't mind doing so with concept/design stuff tho). If and when I get to a physical development point and this codes theory is implemented, I plan on doing extensive Q&A/testing on this specific aspect to make sure there are no unintended effects/bugs.  If you're trying to frustrate players, go right ahead I'll try to keep an eye on it/open mind while working/testing on the scripting/theory for the code, thanks for your feedback. As for your health/healing systems, you're basically punishing players with long wait times between combat actions because they 'might' use exploits. having to wait a long time to continue playing that part of game because you're too beaten from the last fight is the wrong approach, and will turn players away from the game. My stand on this is as follows: In life, if you weren't confident in your ability to do something (like fight someone) you naturally wouldn't undertake that task right? If you did, you'd implore other means which give you an advantage (better armor or more stand off-ish gear like a gun [ranged weapons in A.E.]).When you think of taking damage and it being expressed through a single form (hp bar) your question would automatically be valid. The health display in A.E. Isn't a traditional "Health bar". In order to keep the UI/HUD as clean as possible I thought of ways to display health and other status conditions through the characters appearance/performance. I call this the "realistic status mechanic" (working name) and while I feel it is very under developed/designed at the moment, it seems to have potential. Basically if you're bleeding, you will see that its not stopping/you're leaving a trail. If your badly bruised/sprained your character will move slower. If you have minor cuts/bruises you'd have a chance to flinch/stagger when getting hit or attacking. Minors cuts/scratches/bruises would only take a day (24 minutes) or two (48 minutes) to show improvement and like 4 days or w.e. to fully heal/not show on you're character or cause flinching/staggering. That's like less than 30 mins of gameplay avoiding EXTENSIVE (not all) combat/trying not to take more damage. Reason I emphasis "extensive combat" is because irl, I can still fight with bruises, just wouldn't wanna get hit or I'd probably stagger/flinch lol.. I've gone into sparring matches/fights while being bruised and I know for a fact that's what its like. Aside from your characters appearance, their condition is laid out in a more technical sense within the pause screen/menus. Your health consist of an injury rating and nutritional status (hunger [effects your stamina] and thirst [affects will regen which I'll get to later] which both alter your characters  performance. Something I hadn't mentioned earlier in my healing post is that a character can rest essentially fast forwarding time. Sleep isn't required (explained in lore/story) but is used to fast forward time. While resting, properly dressed and tended wounds would recover the way they would within the same amount of regular time. Essentially you could heal instantly. The only problem is negative effects would happen instantly too. If a wound wasn't cleaned before being dressed you'd have an infection right after "resting"/fast forwarding. Also choosing to rest in an unsafe place garners negative results. Being attacked mid-rest (you'll wake up) and pick pocketed are among those negative results. People will rather play a fun game, than a game that punishes them for a seemingly normal (albeit unskillfull) play style. If you were going into a situation where proper tools/equipment were required (baking a cake> oven mitts) you wouldn't attempt it otherwise right? With that thought in mind, would you go into a gun fight without a gun or bulletproof vest/body armor? I wouldn't jump into a situation IRL if my acceptable state after said situation would be half-dead/in critical condition. In A.E. I want the players to use realistic judgment according to how  confident they fell about their own skills as well as their characters capabilities.. If I knew I could walk into a dungeon irl cuz my gear would protect me against the zombies inside and I was confident I had the fighting skills to take them on I would charge in there xD.. I wouldn't expect to need instant recovery aside from resting and catching my breath.. You wouldn't charge into a situation, or stick around for one where you were gonna barely make it out alive would you? Forgot to address this: perhaps not simply casting a spell, but something more involved which is difficult for the player to contrive casting a spells isnt simple for both the FFC user and the default player either. Cast time plays a big role ia weaving. Increasing your speed with the FFC would still cause it to be hard.  Theres more, but I'm nodding off.. I'll add to the edit if anything (still havent finished but ill get to it in another post if anything, found other questions which need answering) Sin ?§• ??§?;  The "learn by doing" mechanic is a very common one that often implemented in (older?) RPGs. In my humble opinion, it often doesn't quite work out the way we imagined it would.The key weakness of the system is that the optimal behavior is to "grind" (repeating actions over and over again). It feels unnatural and contrived: instead of going through an adventure and "leveling up" along the way like intended, players hole up in a corner and grind actions until they are maxed out.In my humble opinion, it is not nice to punish players for a behavior ("grind") that the system/mechanic encourages.You're over simplifying my concept by assuming you know the extent of the anti macro code. I explained it in simple terms and left out as much fluff as possible cuz not everybody wants to hear the technical side of things. There are plenty of checks and balances/measures put in place to make sure it doesn't punish proper players.I think the responsibility is on you to fully explain your concept/implementation.To come up with an algorithm that can effectively "anti-macro" while avoiding proper players might not be as easy as you think it is. Perhaps you can post a sketch (or pseudo-code version) of your algorithm somewhere and link us to it.   ;The "learn by doing" mechanic is a very common one that often implemented in (older?) RPGs. In my humble opinion, it often doesn't quite work out the way we imagined it would.The key weakness of the system is that the optimal behavior is to "grind" (repeating actions over and over again). It feels unnatural and contrived: instead of going through an adventure and "leveling up" along the way like intended, players hole up in a corner and grind actions until they are maxed out. I'm not sure if its exactly what you're referring to, but learn-by-doing was implemented as recently as Skyrim - where continuously using a weapon or a skill made you become better at it.There are players out there who did grind to improve their skill, but that doesn't matter in a single-player game (from all I've read, I'm still not entirely sure what Sinister is planning - single- or multi-player). It may be far more important and exploitable in a multiplayer game. But at least in a single player game like Skyrim, I haven't seen any major complaints about their weapon/skill leveling system. But on that note, I was wondering - grinding happens, in part at least because the players can see their skill level with some weapon and are eager to get the little skill bar to slowly climb higher.What if using a skill improved your ability at it, but there was no explicit indicator to it - e.g. no skill level number or progress bar? Perhaps some sort of other subtle visual element during combat animation could change depending on skill (i.e. at lower levels the animation for swinging a sword would take longer, and the player would visually stumble forward, as though unused to the weight of the sword). Of course this is going to require a lot of work... but it might be worth testing to see if it could lead to less grindy behavior (that one word shows up again: prototype)