   Lets ease up on Quest Logs
  I've noticed that as we move forward in game design in RPG's one of the things that seems to be getting added is the quest log.  I personally love it.  Its a great way of tracking tasks that have been given to you by NPC's.  However sometimes I feel that I am being cheated when the quests that show up have no point in being in a log.Take Oblivion for example.  I'm walking around, I pick up a certain type of plant and "Boom" in my quest shows up a quest entry saying I should take it to so-and-so.While I like Quest logs, I think there needs to be some major changes to the way they work.Lets get away from specific hand-holding methods that we see in alot of quest logs.  Stop telling me what I need to do next.  If Billy Bob told me I need to collect 10 cow patties then that can go in the log.  However, when I collect them don't insult my intelligence by reminding me that I need to return them to Billy Bob (thanks WOW)  Just leave the note in there that said "Billy Bob asked me to collect 10 Cow Patties."Leave me a simple text editor or something where I can make my own notes, and put some "quests" into the game that don't show up in the quest log.  These would be research tasks.  Things that I may need to go to the in-game library and look up.  Things I may have to hunt for such as a rumored treasure.  Things that get me out to explore.Oh and don't give me Exploration quests either (THANKS EQ) I don't need to be told to go wander around to various points just to visit them...  If you want me to visit a place then make it make sense...I'll explore as I do the actual quest...not because you said "Go sight see at these places where the monsters will kill you"Ok enough ranting from me.   
  I really like the idea of being able to add notes to the quest log. IT would definatly come in handy.   ;Quote:Original post by robert4818Take Oblivion for example.  I'm walking around, I pick up a certain type of plant and "Boom" in my quest shows up a quest entry saying I should take it to so-and-so.I assume you're referring to the nirnroot quest. I'm not sure why it shouldn't be there. Where should it be?Quote:Lets get away from specific hand-holding methods that we see in alot of quest logs.  Stop telling me what I need to do next.  If Billy Bob told me I need to collect 10 cow patties then that can go in the log.  However, when I collect them don't insult my intelligence by reminding me that I need to return them to Billy Bob (thanks WOW)  Just leave the note in there that said "Billy Bob asked me to collect 10 Cow Patties."Why? Let's face it, stating the (apparently) obvious in a quest log doesn't actually hurt. Bear in mind also that not everyone does quests sequentially - half way through one they might start a bit of another, and so on. Keeping the quest log up to date enables you to come back to the quest later and know exactly where you are, even after you may have forgotten.   ;  Bloodspear uses a quest recording system a bit like you're describing. We also have a 'notepad' that players can carry around. We use our in game libraries in conjunction with a 'literacy' skill (that persistent use increases) in order to release 'historic' events into the game - things that happened long ago have a chain of clues spawned for them in libraries. Each clue has a literacy difficulty level so players may need to find a good local sage / academic type.We feel this helps some character types (especially magic users and cleric/priests) move away from their combat-gunship archetype, and put them into a more subtle (often political) niche.Edit: The 'notepad' isn't a game item (although notes can be written on ingame items and then traded), it's a part of the player's client, with notes being savable (and loadable) to and from .txt files. In game items require literacy to write to, with the difficulty being based on the number of words. Before it's pointed out that people could just use lots of items to get a message across for lower difficulty, I have to point out that paper and parchment are expensive. ;Quote:However, when I collect them don't insult my intelligence by reminding me that I need to return them to Billy BobAs someone who only occasionally plays these types of games I can see the advantage of the reminder of where you have to go. It can be a week between playings of the game and a lot can happen, and I don't wnat to have to spend time wracking my brain and wandering around the world trying to find where to finish off a quest. Also not everyone has an edidct (photographic) memory and they might just forget where to finish the quest (or the initual quest text is skiped and you  miss where you have to finish the quest off).There are many reasons to include this kind of infomation in a quest log and only one (which can be solved by ignoring it) against it.   ;  I think the OP is talking about *obtrusive* quest logs and messages, or providing 'too much info'. The quest is stored in the quest log, and I assume any further critical information is also added, such as 'forward pointers', as the quest is partially completed. I guess once the quest is not failable (all items are acquired, just need to be taken back, assuming they are not tradeable / destructible) then the forward pointer could go on the log (as something MUST be done to complete), but whilst there's a choice, the player should not be given a definitive instruction.I wouldn't mind some feedback on how my system works (sorry to derail the thread a bit, but it's sorta relevant). Let's use Billy Bob as an example.Firstly, we DO identify roles and places for NPCs. Generally our (roving) NPCs stick pretty close to home, if satisfied. They can up and leave if things go horribly wrong in their area, which will break quests assigned by them.Let's assume we have Billy Bob the Tanner, from the manor of Garriot. He needs cowpats regularly, so he places a buy price on a noticeboard outside his shop. He will pay 10 pennies for 10 cowpats. Any player (or NPC trying to sell cowpats) may come across this board and sell 10 cowpats, till Billy Bob decides he wants to lower the price, or stop.When a player clicks on the noticeboard, they have the *option* of noting the buy price. This is the closest we come to a traditional MMO quest, and it is a simple economic action, and will probably occur very regularly.So what happens if Billy Bob decides he doesn't need any more cowpats, and a player has the note in their log? - well, on returning to Billy Bob, the buy price is updated, along with a Billy Bob didn't require any cowpats note, and the cowpats are left in the player's inventory, to do with as they wish. The note is NOT updated whilst the players are away. Billy Bob isn't rooted to the spot in Garriot however. He wanders around, obeying a fairly simplistic daily routine. Occasionally he may leave town to sell his wares elsewhere, in which case players returning to Garriot to sell him stuff will find him absent. This doesn't break the transaction, simply delays it. A 'Billy Bob wasn't here' entry is added to the quest log, perhaps with an estimated time of return. No entry is added to the log if the store is simply closed.If Billy Bob does no business for too long, he'll lose his shop, being removed from the manor's list of local traders. This DOES break the quest (as a result of the way we handle quest locations and generic NPCs). Finding Billy Bob the Beggar, and trying to sell him cowpats won't help. Again, the player is left with a bag full of cowpats to sell to the nearest tanner. No entry is made to the player's quest log until they return to the shop, or another source of the manor's local traders list (it being fairly common for neighbouring manors to have lists of the other's local traders to allow inter-manor trading).;Quote:Original post by SandmanQuote:Original post by robert4818Take Oblivion for example.  I'm walking around, I pick up a certain type of plant and "Boom" in my quest shows up a quest entry saying I should take it to so-and-so.I assume you're referring to the nirnroot quest. I'm not sure why it shouldn't be there. Where should it be?I haven't played the game so can't comment directly, but maybe the OP was trying to say:"If I pick up an item, don't tell me I need to take it to BillyBob unless I've already seen BillyBob and he has asked me to collect the item.";Quote:Original post by BursarI haven't played the game so can't comment directly, but maybe the OP was trying to say:"If I pick up an item, don't tell me I need to take it to BillyBob unless I've already seen BillyBob and he has asked me to collect the item."And this problem isn't really related to the quest log per se, but to quest conditionals scripting. Some level designer was sloppy. The quest logs are fine as they are. I usually start 20-30 quests and then chip away at them. Then I might not play for a week. If I come back, I don't want to backtrack through the whole journal to figure out what I need to do next. Usually the journal is checked when you are not sure what to do next, so imho it needs concise and precise information with just a little bit of flavoring. Of course, it's no good if it says "Take the cowpats to Billy Bob" but I think something like "I've got the cowpats, now let's hope that Billy Bob is still interested" is perfectly fine.   ;Quote:Original post by BursarI haven't played the game so can't comment directly, but maybe the OP was trying to say:"If I pick up an item, don't tell me I need to take it to BillyBob unless I've already seen BillyBob and he has asked me to collect the item."That's not quite what the quest does though.You pick it up and it says something like: "this root looks rare and unusual, perhaps you should take it to an alchemist to find out more about it". When you see an alchemist, they either don't know anything useful or they point you in the direction of a specific NPC who makes fancy potions out of them.;Quote:Original post by SandmanQuote:Original post by BursarI haven't played the game so can't comment directly, but maybe the OP was trying to say:"If I pick up an item, don't tell me I need to take it to BillyBob unless I've already seen BillyBob and he has asked me to collect the item."That's not quite what the quest does though.You pick it up and it says something like: "this root looks rare and unusual, perhaps you should take it to an alchemist to find out more about it". When you see an alchemist, they either don't know anything useful or they point you in the direction of a specific NPC who makes fancy potions out of them.There are a good number of quests in Oblivion (I've done too many to pinpoint which ones, but they are there.  The potato one, maybe?) that give you too much information.I feel like most games (especially Oblivion) are at the point now that you don't have to think anymore.  When you get a Nirnroot, should you be told to take it to an alchemist, or should you just think "Oh, maybe an alchemist can tell me what to do with this".  In Oblivions case, you have to be told because all of the hand-holding in the game makes the player brain-lazy and they'd never figure it out themselves.  There has been at least one quest where I read my journal and learned something about the quest that I was never told!One game that is very good about not holding your hand is the Zelda series.  There has been more hand-holding recently, but it still requires you to think "ok, I have this item, now what do I do with it?" or "I'm in this situation, how do I proceed?"  Yes, this leads to the player being stumped every once in a while, but with decent in-game hints the player will feel like a genius when it "clicks".   