   beyond good and evil and philosophy in story-telling
  Ok Im playing off the philosophy (someone correct me if Im wrong on this) of buddhism and neitzsche (german philosopher) who say to look at things without judgement, evaluation..etc. and see into them directly-rather than "good" or "bad". Do you think we could use this philosophy in game story telling? Of course we have to have a conflict, and 9/10 that conflict is violence, but my point is we could possibly take the storyline and make it to where you cant really tell who is "good" or "bad". I cant really come up with a good example cause this just really popped into my head, but I like the idea of teaching the player some philosophy along the line and actually having to use it to understand the story. While on the topic what do you think about philosophy in story telling? Can we use it to provoke thought in the player about society, politics..etc? Ok I''ll stop myself now, these are just wandering thoughts please discuss. 
  Upon reading the point about a storyline where the player can''t tell who''s good or evil, I had a fun idea. To put it simply: the player''s character is the only evil person, but throughout the game is lead to believe that everyone else is evil. In the end, they would find out that everything their character did was wrong and destructive somehow, while the whole time they thought they were helping people.The idea may have already been done, not sure, and I may not be making any sense, so let me know on that. Thanks.Concerning philosophy and teaching it, I see it as being a difficult task. First, players don''t play a game to learn about philosophy; they play for fun, not for a lecture. Second, if you did try to incorporate some philosophy, the player would probably not notice it, or would sub-consciously pick it up. In other words, players aren''t gonna look for the philosophy being taught. So you''ll have to kind of trick them into learning it.  <-- LOL, sounds like school.Those are just my thoughts from playing, and rarely have I played a game where I left knowing I learned some "words of wisdom." Please post opinions on this. ;quote:Original post by Omega147  Upon reading the point about a storyline where the player can''t tell who''s good or evil, I had a fun idea. To put it simply: the player''s character is the only evil person, but throughout the game is lead to believe that everyone else is evil. In the end, they would find out that everything their character did was wrong and destructive somehow, while the whole time they thought they were helping people.Very good idea, I like that or maybe the character does something that is admirable by others but has bad consequences. quote:Original post by Omega147  Concerning philosophy and teaching it, I see it as being a difficult task. First, players don''t play a game to learn about philosophy; they play for fun, not for a lecture. Second, if you did try to incorporate some philosophy, the player would probably not notice it, or would sub-consciously pick it up. In other words, players aren''t gonna look for the philosophy being taught. So you''ll have to kind of trick them into learning it.  <-- LOL, sounds like school.Those are just my thoughts from playing, and rarely have I played a game where I left knowing I learned some "words of wisdom." Please post opinions on this.   Oh of course, Im not saying giving the player one big lecture. I was thinkin more of what some musical artists do, take Marilyn Manson for example. Hes a very intelligent philosopher himself and has many things to say about society but its only there for those who look for it. So those who dont care for philosophy dont really pay any attention to it, but those that do get much more out of the song. The same could be said about some movies.My point is, is that one could put it in on a basic level, or maybe make it a crucial part of the storyline. But it wouldnt be brought out like a lecture, just a added layer to the storyline.;  You have to be careful not to cram philosophy down the player''s throat because they may not agree with it, and rebel at the idea that they have to act according to this philosophy to win the game.  A less objectionable way to try to teach philosophy through your game is to have one of the cultures the character encounters follow this philosophy, and the player learns about it through the NPCs telling stories, speaking in proverbs, and giving advice.As for not knowing who the bad guys are, I personally like the game structure where you start out as an ignorant peon on the bad guys'' side (but of course you think it''s the good side), then as you figure out what''s really going on you switch to the other side. ;  I don''t know how much you know about Nietzsche, but he''s a tough guy to access, and he doesn''t really talk about seeing into things directly.  His philosophy is an existentialism, and it''s extremely complex, and quite dark at times, even though he himself saw it as a liberating tragic parody.  If you want to read a really good story with a lot of existentialist content, track down "Stranger in a Strange Land" by Robert Heinlein.  It''s a great example of how a story with aliens, superpowers, and hot chicks can involve pervasive philosophical content without getting preachy.The idea of the hero being a villain and only later discovering that he was unwittingly evil is not uncommon, nor is it appropriate for this exercise.  You start out thinking you''re a "good guy", and then later on you find out you''re really a "bad guy", but you haven''t challenged the notions of "good" and "bad" at all.  You''ve simply addressed the uncertainty of our own status on the good/evil continuum.  If you want to get all Buddhist about it, you have to eliminate the notion of absolute good and evil.The problem is that when people really get Buddhist, they wind up sitting around and thinking a lot, and don''t spend a lot of time blowing up the Death Star.  Sitting and thinking is fun, but it doesn''t make for a great video game.  It''s like with Jedi.  Everyone wants to have the flipping, twirling, slicing, telekinetic super-bad-assitude that the Jedi have, but you have to realize that by the time you''re a Jedi, you don''t do those things thinking, "Damn, I kick ass!"  An actual Jedi would be more concerned with inner peace and harmonious balance, not wacky kung-fu.  Of course, the Jedi live in a good/evil world.  A Buddhist warrior wouldn''t ever fight, he''d just use martial arts as an exercise for his mind/body, like Yoga.  Even if he had the capability to be an unstoppable fury of many-armed death, he wouldn''t.  That''s a formula for a disappointing video game.I really don''t think that an entertaining video game about inner peace and tranquility is going to be forthcoming.  The closest thing I can think of would mesh with the thread about character development as the focus of an RPG.  You''d have stats for things like "harmony", "piety", and "enlightenment", and you''d raise levels at first by experiencing the world through wandering travels and various jobs, and then you''d bring them to fruition through twenty years of meditiation.  If you read "Siddhartha" by Herman Hesse, you''ll get a general idea of the life cycle I''m talking about.Reading List:Stranger in a Strange Land, by Robert HeinleinSiddhartha, by Herman Hesse ;quote:Original post by wes  quote:Original post by Omega147   take Marilyn Manson for example. Hes a very intelligent philosopher himself and has many things to say about society but its only there for those who look for it. OT/ No thanks, he is a fool. Don''t look to him for personal guidance unless the advice you want is to have lots of bad sex, get f*d up on drugs, self-harm, and make money by selling your image.But yeah, you might want to incorporate thoughts / philosophy in a similar manner. Though I''d think that Eminem would be a better example of provocative thoughts / social comment.. Ie. You want me to fix up lyrics while our president gets his **** sukd.   ;quote:Original post by Anonymous Poster   OT/ No thanks, he is a fool. Don't look to him for personal guidance unless the advice you want is to have lots of bad sex, get f*d up on drugs, self-harm, and make money by selling your image.lol well no offense but you obviously dont understand where hes coming from or what hes saying. Hes actually had a very positive influence on my life. But Im not gonna get off on that.Back on topic: I guess it would be better to do them in a simpler manner, have any examples? [edited by - wes on February 17, 2004 4:38:34 PM];quote:Original post by wes  lol well no offense but you obviously dont understand where hes coming from or what hes saying. Hes actually had a very positive influence on my life. But Im not gonna get off on that.quote:/Off topic: don''t want to start an argument on this point, but express some thoughts on the negativity of MM.  I just find it rather strange that he can be considered positive, some aspects of his personal beliefs as he expresses them in the Long Hard Road Out of Hell are really offensive, such as when he says that he wouldn''t stop for a car crash with two old people in, because ''he thinks'' they wouldn''t stop for him (coz he looks like a freak). And besides he might get something nasty, this really is wrong since early intervention in accidents can save lives (as long as you know what you are doing and don''t make it worse).  How would he feel if he knew that someone had just walked by on the other side if his grandparents/parents had critical injuries?  I sure hope that you haven''t taken this philosophy on board. If you mean that he has encouraged you to be yourself then fair enough.Likewise, I don''t know much about Nietzche, but if (from your description) you are suggesting that the player should see things as being neither good nor bad, and that you can''t judge things, then that is patent b.s.  and I would have thought a philosophical idea of little social benefit.--> had to point these things out.What do you mean by do them in a simpler manner?I suppose you could have a game where the character acts in a prescripted way, such as ignoring people in a car-crash and you get a voice-over explaining his ''thoughts'', but later you are shown that the character''s philosophy is flawed.  Something like Camus''s L''Etranger (a book that I''ve never really understood the point of).   ;  I''d think that it would be quite difficult to explain many philosophies in any depth unless they were broken down into parables? ;quote:Original post by Anonymous Poster  /Off topic: don''t want to start an argument on this point, but express some thoughts on the negativity of MM.  I just find it rather strange that he can be considered positive, some aspects of his personal beliefs as he expresses them in the Long Hard Road Out of Hell are really offensive, such as when he says that he wouldn''t stop for a car crash with two old people in, because ''he thinks'' they wouldn''t stop for him (coz he looks like a freak). And besides he might get something nasty, this really is wrong since early intervention in accidents can save lives (as long as you know what you are doing and don''t make it worse).  How would he feel if he knew that someone had just walked by on the other side if his grandparents/parents had critical injuries?  I sure hope that you haven''t taken this philosophy on board. If you mean that he has encouraged you to be yourself then fair enough.Yes he has been somewhat of example on me for being myself rather than what everyone else wants one to be, if it wasnt for him I wouldnt have been the same person. And as far as the whole car crash incident hes using that as a example that he only cares for those close to him and would do anything for them, but wouldnt give a penny to a beggar.quote:Original post by Anonymous Poster  What do you mean by do them in a simpler manner?I suppose you could have a game where the character acts in a prescripted way, such as ignoring people in a car-crash and you get a voice-over explaining his ''thoughts'', but later you are shown that the character''s philosophy is flawed.  Something like Camus''s L''Etranger (a book that I''ve never really understood the point of).   Yea I like that example, but I was thinking something more underlined in the actual story. Somethin like the matrix but is only brought forth in small amounts.