   I'm split: career and education decisions
  [First, I apologize for the length of this post!]My first year of college is over, and I am as confused as ever about what I want to do with my life. I'm hoping that someone who has been in a similar situation here could offer up their story about their confusion and how they resolved it (if it has been resolved).I'm good at programming, and I enjoy it. I would like to work as a programmer or software developer, not necessarily only in game development but in almost any field.But I'm also good at math, and I enjoy it very much. I would also like to get a PhD in math and pursue a professorship.But these two paths are for the most part mutually exclusive. Yes, I could start out as a programmer, then go get a PhD and try to become a professor, or I could get a PhD in math, then try to become a programmer. But there's really no point in going down one path and then abruptly switching to the other; the first path taken would have become largely a waste of time.Working as a full professor of math, doing research, teaching classes, maybe even writing some books all the while having a very competitive salary is the ideal job for me. However, it takes such a very long time to become a full professor, and honestly the route to a full professorship (after having obtained a PhD) doesn't sound very fun. Plus I've heard that competition is extremely fierce and that some people never even obtain full professorships. I really hope I'm wrong.On the flip-side, working as a programmer is not quite my ideal, perfect conception of a job, but it seems significantly less stressful. Getting a job as a programmer seems easier, I wouldn't be spending many years getting a PhD, and the salaries tend to be good--no, perhaps one won't get rich as a programmer, but in general lots of programmers seem to have little to no financial difficulties.Some people say that you should always do what you love. I'd like to believe it, but money does matter. I don't care about getting rich, but I do care about obtaining financial stability, living in a nice neighborhood, and having enough disposable income so that I can lead an interesting lifestyle. It seems that the programming route would make it so much easier to get this goal. Again, I hope someone here can tell me I'm wrong.My original plan was to double major in math and CS. Currently this is still what I'm doing. I've considered dropping the CS major altogether, but at that time I was almost dead-set on the PhD route. Presently I'm considering just doing a major in math and a minor in CS, but I'm afraid that if I decide I want to work as a programmer rather than get a PhD this will hurt me.Why not just continue with the double major? I wanted to focus the majority of my time on math. I was wanting to go to some summer research programs in math, maybe even study abroad, and spend a semester at Penn State in an intensive undergraduate program in math. Doing these things would be almost impossible with a dual major in CS because at my school a CS major essentially requires that CS be your focus. People here who did dual majors in CS and math in the past had to do the bare minimum for math in order to graduate in four years, and I don't want to do the bare minimum for math (quite the contrary--I want to do more than most math majors do, quite a lot more), but I also don't want to be stuck in undergraduate forever.I'm completely split by these separate paths. Case in point: I already have a programming internship this summer, but I'm also planning on taking two math courses this summer at the same time. Sometimes I wonder if I should just drop those classes, focus everything on the internship, forget about the PhD in math, and just implement my original plan that I had crafted way back when I first started high school: dual major in CS and math, then work as a programmer, possibly in a field that also requires math skills, such as game development or the financial sector.So, I'm so confused I don't even have any specific questions to ask. I was hoping that instead people could just offer up their own stories of confusion over what they would do with their lives and how everything worked out.Cheers!   
Quote:Working as a full professor of math, doing research, teaching classes, maybe even writing some books all the while having a very competitive salary is the ideal job for me. However, it takes such a very long time to become a full professor, and honestly the route to a full professorship (after having obtained a PhD) doesn't sound very fun. Plus I've heard that competition is extremely fierce and that some people never even obtain full professorships. I really hope I'm wrong.Most PhD professors I know don't make much money. Most private sector jobs make equal to or more than what college profs make. Of course, money isn't everything. Back in 2006 I took a pay cut from a job I hated to transition into a job field that I loved. It made all the difference in the world, and never once did I think about the smaller paychecks! I was just thrilled to be involved with something I love. In the end that job change paid off, as now I'm much happier and now make much more than a majority of the teachers I know (which was my old job).I can't really speak to your situation since I'm neither a full time programmer nor a math prof. But I did find myself in a similar situation after getting my masters. I was teaching and hated it. I felt like I had wasted 6.5 years of my life getting two degrees only to end up "trapped" in a teaching job that I despised. Through some serious determination, luck and a heavy amount of networking, I was able to get out of teaching and into game and media audio. My two degrees are in music education and saxophone performance, so they relate somewhat to game audio- although there was alot of new stuff I had to pick up on and learn myself. I don't know about teaching math and programming, but I'm sure there is some carry over. Quote:On the flip-side, working as a programmer is not quite my ideal, perfect conception of a job, but it seems significantly less stressful. Getting a job as a programmer seems easier, I wouldn't be spending many years getting a PhD, and the salaries tend to be good--no, perhaps one won't get rich as a programmer, but in general lots of programmers seem to have little to no financial difficulties.Hmmm, I'm not so sure. I'd say there are equal amounts of stress in both fields, from what I've observed. Personally, I have just as much stress from my teaching days to my game development days. It's just a different kind of stress. My advice: get a degree. Particularly at the bachelor level, things are more open ended once you're done. I'm not using a lick of my education training, nor do I play saxophone very often at my job. But I do use other skills and my musical training daily. You're only done with your first year and have plenty more time to figure out what you want to do when you grow up. Focus on learning as much as you can about a variety of subjects, enjoy life and chase your happiness. If you find that you got the "wrong" degree, you can always go back to school. My friend is doing that right now. He was a math education major and taught for four years. He hated it. So now he's just about done with a civil engineering degree. One of the co-owners of my company got a degree in civil engineering then started making video games. So, my point in all of this is just get a degree. If it doesn't turn out to be 100% suited or directed towards you're ultimate job or role- no worries. Either get more degrees that better fit your vision (which will become clearer and clearer as you age and experience more) or learn on the job. Some survey I read stated that the average American changes job industries five times. Five times. The average career span is, what, forty years or so? Then you (hopefully) retire. Don't underestimate the ability to learn new skills on the job. Or by just taking a few college courses here and there, you can add to your skill set. I admire your desire to attain the perfect degree for your ideal job, but you're still pretty young (probably between 19-20) and your goals and needs may change. If I were you, I wouldn't stress so much about getting the perfect degree and focus on learning and bettering yourself as much as you can while in school. Also don't forget to have some fun!I hope that helps, Nate   ;  I don't think you could ever go wrong with a fundamental degree like mathematics -- even if you decide to go into the comp sci field. I was working toward a bachelor's in CS with the intent to get a masters, but one of my CS professors and a book that I had read suggested that a better route would be to get a bachelor's in math, and then get the masters in CS. In the end, I started getting burnt out with college and just went with a BS in computer science. But in general if you plan to go to grad school, its good to receive a nice liberal education for your undergraduate studies. Focus on the applied studies in grad school.I wouldn't worry about your future career *too* much just yet. Focus on completing school and doing well. In the long run, the degree is just a stepping stone. I would say that the safest choice would be the math degree because it leaves you with such a wide range of options, and especially if you are a self-taught programmer, you can do just as well in the programming field.Best of luck!   ;  I can relate to your problem. I too have been bouncing between programming or academia for years, to the point where earlier this year I've finished up my PhD in CS and now thinking about going back into game development. In retrospect I don't particularly think of it as "lost time", more building up an interesting electic skill set. [wink]Back when I was doing my bachelor degrees, I specifically chose to study a double degree in software engineering and mathematics to give me flexibility due to my uncertainty about the right direction. In your position I'd try to continue with the double degree. Computer science and mathematics are intertwined, so the study of one with strengthen the other. If it's a problem with classes you might be able to overload if you've got good grades, although be warned there's a big risk your studies will suffer (I speak from experience). If it's too hard to continue the double degree then I agree it's a difficult decision. If it were me I'd probably go with the major that I felt best about and do a few extra subjects in the other field.If you're seriously considering academia I'd strongly consider an honour year or whatever the equivalent is. Here it's mandatory for postgraduate study anyway, but it's also a good trial for what it's like. Generally you can work on a research project and have a fair bit more flexibility in what you study. That wasn't the case for me doing engineering (fourth year is mostly fixed), but for computer science it was far more academic.I also agree that the maths is probably better to learn in a university environment. Not that the computer science doesn't also help, but I've seen more maths people convert to computer science than the other way around. Of course, that's probably just be because I worked in computer science and the field is rather new. [smile]Whatever path you choose, I wouldn't fret so much about future career paths. It's very common for people to switch direction. I've done so several times, and my sister has gone to med school after getting a PhD. I wouldn't be too concerned about closing doors yet.;  Both paths are long and arduous as you should probably know by now becoming good at something is not a quick fix, it takes years and years of practice to become truly capable in a field of anything, so please do not take commercial programming as the easy way out, it really isn't.As a professional programmer of 10 years I can promise you now it's more stressful than it is fun ESPECIALLY in a crunch magnet area like commercial games. People do it because the money is good and / or they love the job with all their heart. From personal experience programming is like a new toy, you have loads and loads of fun learning all the new stuff but then you have to build something which often takes a long time, suddenly your not learning as much as you used to and it stops being this fun and amazing fountain of knowledge and your pulling all nighters at the back of the office with producers who cant manage coming up and nagging you every 5 mins.I don't have a higher education but the time I've spent messing around trying to find out what I want to do in life I could have gotten one, and I regret not pursuing that. I think if you are a rare case of someone who has the capability to tap into that kind of brain power then you should take advantage of it.I would recommend you get the PhD first, you've got your whole life ahead of you and it will provide you with much more than ample time to experience a PhD, Games and whatever else you can dream up along the way.   ;  First of all, if you read your own post with attention you'll notice that you already seem to have made a choice. I speak with good intentions.Anyway, when I was in high school I didn't know that CS existed. (Really, I didn't!) Before that came along, everyone said that I should go to math in college. I disagreed because I don't get along with public, since it implied being a teacher.So, instead, I considered something in biology (biochemistry to be more exact), because it was something that I would also enjoy doing. And everyone said that I shouldn't because it pays very little (at least in my country). But I didn't care. I liked it.When I discovered CS, I didn't look back. I'm a geek at heart, and love everything "computer". Please note that I'm not implying that you should choose the same. I'm stating that I just followed my taste/heart (whatever you call it).I also don't want you to be bankrupt, but it seems that, from personal experience and from observation of people I know, the most successful people are the ones who work in their area of interest, not the ones that are paid more in the beginning.A career takes decades to build. How many years do you thing one can hold in a job they don't enjoy?Quote: On the flip-side, working as a programmer is not quite my ideal, perfect conception of a job, but it seems significantly less stressful. Every job is stressful, including being a programmer. Currently I have dual function: I develop and give support in one of our clients. Although the two together aren't an overload, there are some days where the levels of stress are high. Mostly, those days are near some project's deadline (on the development side), or when something that isn't working needs immediate attention (on the support side).Plus, an advice I was given: If finances are your problem, then don't rule out a side-business.Well, I shared my experience and opinion. The rest is up to you. =)Best of luck.   ;  You can pursue computational science - solving problems that require tapping computational power.Examples:1. Many-body problems, such as predicting the behavior of many atoms or of planetary systems - involve solving many coupled differential equations and is demanding both computationally and mathematically.2. Building physics engines - finding better algorithms for simulating the real world, from cloth to water to who knows what. Actually many physical problems can only be solved computationally and coming up with fast algorithms for doing so is a major and important challenge. Mathematical finance (the practitioners of which are aka "quants") is super mathematical AND computational. AND it's about money ;).Your attitude towards money is realistic and good - pension, a home, etc are all important - but "having enough disposable income so that I can lead an interesting lifestyle" is bull. That's fear speaking. Do you think that fancy trip abroad once a year or that shiny new car will be enough of a bribe to keep you happy on a path you won't like? I don't think so. Don't be a greedy whore :). It's fine worrying about pension and so, but after those two, working a job you enjoy is 10, no - 100 times more important than those puny materialistic comforts (unless you'll be making 300,000$ a year, in which case, forget my advice immediately and go for it NOW).Being a math prof. isn't any easier or harder than being a programmer, because the day will still have 24 hours no matter which path you take, and you'll be working a great deal out of it regardless of your choice. Is violin harder than piano? Both are equally hard if you practice them 8 hours a day.Good luck with your choice, whatever it may be.;  There's a lot of great advice here. Thanks to everyone who responded. [smile]Quote:Original post by nsmadsenBack in 2006 I took a pay cut from a job I hated to transition into a job field that I loved. It made all the difference in the world, and never once did I think about the smaller paychecks! I was just thrilled to be involved with something I love. In the end that job change paid off, as now I'm much happier and now make much more than a majority of the teachers I know (which was my old job).Quote:Original post bynkostelnikI don't have a higher education but the time I've spent messing around trying to find out what I want to do in life I could have gotten one, and I regret not pursuing that. I think if you are a rare case of someone who has the capability to tap into that kind of brain power then you should take advantage of it.Quote:Original post by Silver PhoenixI also don't want you to be bankrupt, but it seems that, from personal experience and from observation of people I know, the most successful people are the ones who work in their area of interest, not the ones that are paid more in the beginning.Quote:Original post by assafDon't be a greedy whore :). It's fine worrying about pension and so, but after those two, working a job you enjoy is 10, no - 100 times more important than those puny materialistic comfortsIt's very inspiring to see such consensus on this issue.Quote:Original post by Silver PhoenixFirst of all, if you read your own post with attention you'll notice that you already seem to have made a choice.I think you are right. Quote:Original post by nsmadsenIf it doesn't turn out to be 100% suited or directed towards you're ultimate job or role- no worries. Either get more degrees that better fit your vision (which will become clearer and clearer as you age and experience more) or learn on the job. Some survey I read stated that the average American changes job industries five times. Five times. The average career span is, what, forty years or so? Then you (hopefully) retire. Don't underestimate the ability to learn new skills on the job. Or by just taking a few college courses here and there, you can add to your skill set.Quote:Original post by Trapper ZoidI also agree that the maths is probably better to learn in a university environment. Not that the computer science doesn't also help, but I've seen more maths people convert to computer science than the other way around. Of course, that's probably just be because I worked in computer science and the field is rather new. [smile]Whatever path you choose, I wouldn't fret so much about future career paths. It's very common for people to switch direction. I've done so several times, and my sister has gone to med school after getting a PhD. I wouldn't be too concerned about closing doors yet.Very relaxing!Quote:Original post by JonWIn the long run, the degree is just a stepping stone. I would say that the safest choice would be the math degree because it leaves you with such a wide range of options, and especially if you are a self-taught programmer, you can do just as well in the programming field.This is actually just what I was hoping I would hear. I recently read Letters to a Young Mathematician by Ian Stewart, and he often echoes this sentiment.Quote:Original post by Trapper ZoidIf you're seriously considering academia I'd strongly consider an honour year or whatever the equivalent is.I agree very much. I've actually been planning on attending some special programs for undergraduate math majors that essentially accelerate one on the way to graduate school; they function simultaneously as a stepping-stone to graduate school and a little bit of graduate school itself, with advanced or graduate-level material and small research projects. If I get accepted, my enjoyment of these programs should definitely help me decide which path I want to take.As for now, I think I'll continue pursuing the dual major, and if it becomes clear in the future that I definitely want to pursue one path at the expense of the other, I'll drop the relevant major and shift the entirety of my focus to the new area.But most importantly, I think I'm going to stop worrying about this! I'm gaining the confidence to simply trust time that everything will work out as it should in the end.Once again, thanks to those who replied.   ;  Id say, dont get too hung up on the decision. I dont have a single programming credential, and i couldnt care less.Whether you are in CS or math, if you choose your electives right, you are following mostly the same courses.If you are good at math, and you are a decent programmer, you are already a unique asset: ive never met a CS-grad that knew the first thing about math (OMG rotation matrix!). Likewise, there is hardly a mathematician who can program. (look, i can use pointers!)Id say being good at both is more valuable to me, you, and prospective employers, than specializing in one. It doesnt limit an acedemic career either, because there is plenty of professoring to do on the interface between math and CS.   ;  Also I wanted to mention... you are probably already aware of the math degree options at your school, but often you have a lot of flexibility within a degree path. When you pursue a math degree at my university for instance, you have to choose from one of 3 concentrations. There's Applied Mathematics, Pure Mathematics, Statistics, and Mathematics with Computer Science. The Mathematics with Computer Science option (which was my major before I started getting antsy and wanted out of school ASAP) has a lot of classes in common with the Computer Science degree here. I'm sure most programming jobs would be just as welcoming toward someone with a degree like that.At the place where I work, I had to put all of my education course areas on the job application. I was able to list my math courses, science courses, humanities courses, and engineering courses separately. This might be an exceptional circumstance, but they were looking more toward you curriculum than what major you held.   