   Thoughts of a 2D lover
  Right now I am starting to get deep in to games, more than I ever have before. I like to know what the developers did during all aspects of design and production, how they affected the game personally, how long everything took, the underlying stories and conflicts between characters, NPC's and how they affect the player. Pretty much the evolution and psychology of gaming. It has totally changed how I perceive games and my initial thoughts on new games.First of all, my name is Brendan, I've just turned 20 and I live in the tiny city of Perth and although I don't intend to live in Perth forever, I would like to use it as the base of operations for my life until I have seen the world and decided where I'd like to position myself. So I figure I need to ascertain what Australia can do for me in the way of game design evolution. I have been designing games for flash for 5 years now, I have a lot of unfinished projects, as I'm sure we all do, and a couple of finished platform games made by myself and a couple in collaboration with others.I have been passionate about games since I can remember first picking up a Nintendo controller and playing Mario brothers and I've always known I'd like to design games. However, I do not delude myself, I know that my 3D skills are nowhere near up to scratch and my audio is also not as good as it needs to be, my managerial, programming and 2D drawing abilities are my strongest points, yet knowing how to direct and program in Actionscript for Flash is not going to land me a game design job any time soon and I'm pretty sure developers now days are not interested in 2D platform games.So I was thinking about how I could use my skills to exploit what I can do for todays market. Then my metaphorical prayers were answered with X-box Live Arcade. This handy little system allows developers to create content, easily downloadable content from official XBOX servers. A whole new market has been opened up by XBOX where adult gamers, who were around when platformers were a thing of the future, still want to play these kinds of games. I conducted a little survey where I asked a bunch of random adults I stopped on the street and asked them whether they'd like games like Donkey Kong and Mario to be produced today. Out of 122 people, 98 of them answered yes. Whether or not that has any official meaning is beyond me, but it says something to me about older gamers. They still love the 2D!I had taught my niece and nephew to play old-school games like Donkey Kong Country, Bomberman and Super Mario World when they were 4 and 5, and they love those games just as much as they love playing Halo 2, Mario 64 and Scooby Doo now that they are 10 and 11. My nephew also informs me that his friend has access to his parents Sega and super Nintendo which he plays more than his XBOX. Once again, no legitimate connections made, but a connection none the less.My point being that I don't 2D games are dead. They have just been pushed out of view by next-gen technology! I believe it is up to the designers of yesterday to keep 2D games in competition with next-gen consoles. Next-gen technology means a lot more for 2D games as well as 3D. Can you imagine the kind of performance and effects you could pull off rendering a 2D engine (or 3D running 2D graphics) with todays technology. It could be mind blowing! Gish, Loco Roco and Alien Hominid are a couple of good examples of how 2D is still more than capable of delivering a great game.I wanted to get some opinions on this. Am I a dreamer? Should I give up on my dream of 2D games making a come back? Or should I stick to my guns, learn C# and start developing on XBLA to gain experience and hopefully spark some interest in the fading genre. I believe that one person can make a difference, it's been proven throughout history and it's that hope that keeps me going.I am not talking about developing 2D INSTEAD of 3D. No way. I mean that 2D games should still be in the cards when designers think about games. To still think about 2D concepts and what they can do that a 3D game cannot. What elements of gameplay can work in a game like Super Metroid that just wouldn't fit in Metroid Prime. I think more research needs to go into developing 2D as much as 3D, I don't consider 2D to be a lesser version of 3D by any means, it's just different and I think the genre still deserves respect from console and PC developersPhew, I needed that rant.   
  I was a great fan of Sonic the Hedgehog, and I think it may be one kind of game where 2D beats 3D.I think what will never die is the concept of 2D gaming. I.e. The sheer fact that you can only go up, down, left and right.However, what will clearly continue to become more the norm is that such games will be rendered in 3D. I.e. there will be polygons that are closer to the camera that others and/or polygons that do not face the camera straight on. Images will have depth, even if that depth information is of no real consequence to the gameplay.I hope you get the distinction.   ;Quote:Can you imagine the kind of performance and effects you could pull off rendering a 2D engine (or 3D running 2D graphics) with todays technology.It's already being done, it's just not as obviously mainstream as <insert generic EA game here>. ">Odin Sphere is probably the best recent example of how beautiful it's possible to make a 2d game. [grin] And theres plenty of 2d games getting released on Live Arcade which seem to be selling well.   ;  Ummm... Viewtiful Joe?-Delphinus   ;  Brendan, I have an idea you may not have considered. Try to go back to the days of the SNES and Genesis. Do you remember getting that fun, new game, and how much it immersed you? Yet games like Sonic the Hedgehog really don't have much depth of gameplay at all! But back then they did. Back then, those games were on the cutting edge of drawing players into an imaginary world. I believe that immersion is one of the most attractive features of games.As time and technology have progressed, we are now able to make graphics and worlds that take the player deeper into the gaming world. And now that gamers have been exposed to this depth, the 2d stuff isn't all that appealing.Of course, gameplay is gameplay, regardless of graphics. So if you can make something 2d with *killer* gameplay, then I think you have a chance.   ;  2D games are still very common. On the web, yes, but also on small handheld consoles and mobile phones. 'The games industry' isn't just the big boys that produce the top-tier AAA games. There are many small and medium-sized companies working on smaller projects, of which many are 2D-games.3D hasn't pushed 2D out of the window, nor does 2D need to make a come-back. It's just that the average male teenager drools over next-gen graphics and bigger explosions, and since we fall or fell into that category, that's how we think the market is. There are many more people with different tastes, and thus, many more different market area's and target audiences.Hey, now that we're talking about 2D games anyway, did you ever look at 'Knytt' or 'In a Deep Forest'? Both are fantastic games, that manage to immerse you with their athmospheric music and levels. They're 2D, tile-based, pixel-arted... it couldn't get more simple than that, and yet the results are fantastic.   ;Quote:Original post by PaulStateznyBrendan, I have an idea you may not have considered. Try to go back to the days of the SNES and Genesis. Do you remember getting that fun, new game, and how much it immersed you? Yet games like Sonic the Hedgehog really don't have much depth of gameplay at all! But back then they did. Back then, those games were on the cutting edge of drawing players into an imaginary world. I believe that immersion is one of the most attractive features of games.As time and technology have progressed, we are now able to make graphics and worlds that take the player deeper into the gaming world. And now that gamers have been exposed to this depth, the 2d stuff isn't all that appealing.Of course, gameplay is gameplay, regardless of graphics. So if you can make something 2d with *killer* gameplay, then I think you have a chance.Cheers for the reply's guys!I remember that feeling and it's the same kind of feeling I want to invoke in people again. There is something different about 2D that 3D just can't do, the style and gameplay produced by 2D games are ones of nostalgia and fun. Games like Raiden Densetsu, Golden Axe, Ninja Gaiden and Rocket Knight, the 8-bit music, the pixelated graphics and the lack of any sensible story make them so unique and likable. I know 2D has been totally pushed out the door, but my point is that people are not paying enough attention to it. Including developers, I know that PC, Gameboy, mobile and DS platforms house the 2D games of today, but I just don't think there is enough emphasis on bringing 2D into the next gen era; updating the normal means of creating a 2D game. Imagine the fun you could have with the original Ninja Gaiden if it's physics, interactivity and moves were updated. Another thing about 2D that makes it so friendly is that you can always see whats happening around you, and that makes average gamers feel safe. They will always know what to expect before it happens, even if something is coming up behind them. Where as in a game like Half Life 2, you will not know a headcrab is about to jump at the back of your head, unless you turn around and look at it. I think that is another major reason adults who arent familiar with todays games still like 2D.So here is my (theoretical) idea. To create a vast, immersive world, complete with all the trimmings, entirely in 2D. Imagine what you could do! Destructible ground, houses, trees and objects, water physics up the wahzoo, totally interactive world, lighting affects etc. Imagine a game like Ninja Gaiden completely redone with lighting effects, stealth animations with 20 different ways to kill a guy, blood spraying everywhere. Levels could be enormous, containing many different objectives and characters for you to meet and get along/fight with. The more I think about it, the more it seems like a good idea to me. I just think 2D hasn't been given enough of a chance, the HL2D game was a pretty good example of an updated 2D game. It featured nice physics, ok textures, masking and lighting effects etc.It just seems to me that creating a 2D game and putting a lot of time and effort into it would create an awesome game, ready for anyone who's ever played mario to just jump in and start playing. You could have multiple pathways to different parts of a level which lead to other sections or other levels depending on what you do. And it would take considerably less time and effort to create a game like this that it would for something like Bioshock or HL2.Also, you'll have to excuse the velocity of my rants, I get very carried away ^__^"   ;  I do think that the 2d game age is dead, sadly.  It's been brutally murdered by casual gamers who want nothing less than beautiful graphics, and mindless shooting of things you need no story to shoot. *cough* Halo *cough*   I personally love it when a side scroller comes out on the next gen consoles.  Game designers nowadays forget what REALLY makes a game fun.  What made Super Mario 3 the best Mario game to date?  The little things.  Back then, it didn't matter what the graphics were, as long as the game was fun.   ;Quote:Original post by skribble_styleI remember that feeling and it's the same kind of feeling I want to invoke in people again. There is something different about 2D that 3D just can't do.I belive this as well, but I think it's that 2D games have much more instant immersion than 3D ones do. A third dimension means getting used to the game world and how it functions takes longer. I don't ever think we will really have a "casual" 3D game. That is going to stay in the 2D realm for a long time.Quote:Original post by skribble_stylethink there is enough emphasis on bringing 2D into the next gen era; updating the normal means of creating a 2D game. I completley agree. Taking 2D to the next generation is an untapped market. Companies simply gave up on 2D as soon as they found out they could make a cube rotate on screen. From then on, I think graphics actually DROPPED in quality and are slowly creeping back up to what is possible in 2D.By taking away that third demension, you are leaving the computer with mountains of empty space that can be filled with physics, lighting, special effects, and anything else that you may invent in the future. We easily have the technology to do things like this, but we just don't. Also, can you imagine how much computing power you would have in 2D with the new duo cores and quad cores (provided multithreading is programmed in)? Real, physical water is something game developers have been trying to figure out for years. We've almost done it in 2D though. My favorite example is the "falling sand" game. That is written in java, which is horridly slow compared to other languages.I have actually devoted my years to acheiving a higher level of 2D games. I am quickly catching up with the professionals, and hopefully I can make a real breakthrough someday.;  A good example just came to mind that I'm sure everyone will agree with.MARVEL VS. CAPCOM  is a 2d fighter, that blows any 3d fighter out of the water any day of the week.   