Post by vanillagorilla on Oct 26, 2016 18:11:44 GMT -5

People who leave these atrocities in God's hands with zero action on their part are spineless. People who cover it up are spineless. People who are knowledgeable about this and are guilty of inaction are spineless. Anyone who protects a worker guilty of CSA are spineless. I hope Noel Tanner gets the same special treatment in prison that he would in a US prison. I hope he gets lots of it.

Post by fixit on Oct 26, 2016 20:16:34 GMT -5

People who leave these atrocities in God's hands with zero action on their part are spineless. People who cover it up are spineless. People who are knowledgeable about this and are guilty of inaction are spineless. Anyone who protects a worker guilty of CSA are spineless. I hope Noel Tanner gets the same special treatment in prison that he would in a US prison. I hope he gets lots of it.

Perhaps spineless, or perhaps simply fearful.

Some people think all workers are "the Lord's anointed" faults and all.

Some people are scared of the consequences of exposing a worker's sins (shunning, excommunication, a lost eternity).

Some think workers who fail sexually should have their sins covered because:

1. Noah's son covered the nakedness of his father.

2. There's not enough workers and souls might perish is workers are forced out of the work.

3. It's somehow the victim's fault.

4. The victim will "get over it".

5. It happened a long time ago.

DISCLAIMER: I personally don't condone what is outlined above!

Caution: My posts are my opinions only and are not intended to offend other members. You're entitled to your opinion, as I am mine!Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. ~ Romans 13:13 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery. ~ Galatians 5:19Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. ~ Ephesians 5:11

Post by rational on Oct 27, 2016 8:14:24 GMT -5

Hi RationalIt would seem that we agree on a lot of things and lest I have mislead you at any point I will attempt to clarify some things.

I think we probably do agree and you did a good job of explaining. Perhaps the major difference is that You are closer to the events and I an looking from afar. You are looking at the events with the expected emotions and I am striving to look at the events without emotion. And, as a result my comments are seen as being without the milk of human kindness.

To begin I did know Noel Tanner quite well and do know some of his victims quite well also.

It seems that you did not know Noel well. You knew the persona he wanted people to know. Having worked a number of years with criminals of this type and their victims, this is often the case. When the reporters interview the neighbors of the serial killers, sexual abusers, cases of domestic abuse the comments are very often the same - "They were the nicest people. They would help mow our lawn and in the winter they shoveled the walk. I can't believe they killed 9 people in their basement."

Bottom line - the criminals are good at their job.

Why God allows certain things to happen in this world I would often question. Things will happen to God's people just like any other people

You are right. God has nothing to do with crime.

We do not expect criminal acts to happen to anyone by God's people.

One of the basic facts that allow criminals to be successful. The one point that believers have to he educated about - People are people and there is no one, regardless of their profession, who should be trusted explicitly.

Noel Tanner was a man that held a position of trust,that should have been filled with Christlike Love, but it would seem he was a Wolf in sheep's clothing that became a criminal by sexually assaulting his first victim.

He was, and is, a human and should be looked at just like any other human. Given his position he should have been considered and examined like a family member should be examined. Abuse is usually at the hands of famly members and people well known, and trusted, by the victim and their family.

Those who took it upon themselves to try and coverup the abuse of the abused telling them and theirs to keep quiet about it,then and all down the years and still do, Attempt of a total cover up Ongoing neglect etc - These are showing no sign of Christlike Love which is the Cornerstone.

Yes their is a major problem with people worshiping the "workers", being afraid to say anything knowing that they will be Blackened if they do

This is where upfront and a very pointed education plan can help. Workers are people and they need to be viewed as people. The believers may have to consider them to be appointed by god on the spiritual side of the fence but on the secular side of the fence the workers need to be viewed and judged as perhaps fallible humans.

WELL I'D RATHER ROCK THE BOAT THAN GO DOWN WITH THE SHIP - I'll continue to serve God his way - despite my shortcomings

I understand. But this is the result of your beliefs and not data driven.

People need to Stand Up for what is Right and Fearlessly Condemn what is wrong to the ministry and if they pass it off then they can't claim to Love One Another and be Christlike

Agreed although what you call christlike I call moral human.

Yes if there is any CSA or Sexual Abuse of any kind to any person - go to the Police/Garda or if afraid - Your Teacher or a Doctor and then inform the senior worker if you wish.

Exactly.

I only wish I could do more for the victims and their kin Remembering you each hour of each day

Post by rational on Oct 27, 2016 9:01:37 GMT -5

People who leave these atrocities in God's hands with zero action on their part are spineless. People who cover it up are spineless. People who are knowledgeable about this and are guilty of inaction are spineless. Anyone who protects a worker guilty of CSA are spineless.

They may be believers who hold the belief that their god is in control of the world, that the workers are god's servants, and that what happens in the 'spiritual world' is god's will'.As I mentioned in another post, this is an area where education can make a huge difference. People have to come to the understanding that there is a spiritual and secular side to the F&Ws and while they can cling to the spiritual side they need to address things that happen that are not part of 'god's will' (for lack of a better term) with the secular authorities.

Calling people spineless who stand up for their beliefs in the face of adversity, whether they are right or wrong, is unfair and belittles their beliefs.

I hope Noel Tanner gets the same special treatment in prison that he would in a US prison. I hope he gets lots of it.

This statement is just a step away from encouraging vigilante behavior. We should strive for the moral treatment of all humans.

Post by rational on Oct 27, 2016 9:09:23 GMT -5

The last thing that is needed is after a decade or so to hear of "...abuse of the abused being told to keep quiet about it".

I can see I didn't express this as clearly as I might have.

I believe that abuse and suspicion of abuse should be reported to the authorities.

With that in mind, the last thing people should be hearing is that they should not report and should keep quiet about any crime. After all that has been exposed there should be no more statements like the one I quoted.

Post by vanillagorilla on Oct 27, 2016 10:33:19 GMT -5

People who leave these atrocities in God's hands with zero action on their part are spineless. People who cover it up are spineless. People who are knowledgeable about this and are guilty of inaction are spineless. Anyone who protects a worker guilty of CSA are spineless.

They may be believers who hold the belief that their god is in control of the world, that the workers are god's servants, and that what happens in the 'spiritual world' is god's will'.As I mentioned in another post, this is an area where education can make a huge difference. People have to come to the understanding that there is a spiritual and secular side to the F&Ws and while they can cling to the spiritual side they need to address things that happen that are not part of 'god's will' (for lack of a better term) with the secular authorities.

Calling people spineless who stand up for their beliefs in the face of adversity, whether they are right or wrong, is unfair and belittles their beliefs.

I hope Noel Tanner gets the same special treatment in prison that he would in a US prison. I hope he gets lots of it.

This statement is just a step away from encouraging vigilante behavior. We should strive for the moral treatment of all humans.

"Calling people spineless who stand up for their beliefs in the face of adversity, whether they are right or wrong, is unfair and belittles their beliefs."

If anyone has knowledge of CSA and does nothing about it, then I call them specific things. I censor it on this page to spineless. You may see it as people who stand up for their beliefs. I will never see inaction and knowing of CSA and doing NOTHING as standing for one's beliefs. Fixit had a good response about this. But really, Rational? You claim it's unfair and belittles their beliefs. That's your statement and you can have it. It's not mine and it's not everyone's take on this. If anyone knows of CSA and does nothing, or covers it up, they are feeding the problem and are an injustice to the victim. I am sure you will reply with something because you always do. If you can't help it, then reply. But I stand by what I said with morals and values that I am comfortable with.

Post by rational on Oct 27, 2016 12:41:01 GMT -5

"Calling people spineless who stand up for their beliefs in the face of adversity, whether they are right or wrong, is unfair and belittles their beliefs."If anyone has knowledge of CSA and does nothing about it, then I call them specific things. I censor it on this page to spineless.

I am sure you do and that is your right. Discussions about CSA always cause knee-jerk reactions. It is an emotional topic and many people cannot separate out the emotional side.

You may see it as people who stand up for their beliefs. I will never see inaction and knowing of CSA and doing NOTHING as standing for one's beliefs.

Perhaps you do not. But try to look at it from the true believer's side. They believe they are members of the only way to salvation. They trust and believe that the workers are the way to heaven. While they love their children and it causes them pain to see their child harmed, they have to weigh this earthly concern against their spiritual concern and, looking to the bible, there is support for which things they should consider most important. If they consider the events and look at:

"I tell you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear the One who, after you have been killed, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear Him!a"

they may well be willing to not report a person who they equate with someone who has the power to excommunicate them with the end result, in their mind, to have them end up in hell.

Fixit had a good response about this. But really, Rational? You claim it's unfair and belittles their beliefs.

Yes, I feel it may belittle their beliefs just as it would to call a JW spineless because they stand up to a hospbeliefs of others with whom you disagreeital in an attempt to prevent giving their child a life saving blood transfusion. There is a better way to address a difference in beliefs other than to belittle a person's beliefs.

That's your statement and you can have it. It's not mine and it's not everyone's take on this.

You are correct, I have never claimed to be posting the beliefs or ideas of anyone else.

If anyone knows of CSA and does nothing, or covers it up, they are feeding the problem and are an injustice to the victim.

Yes they are.

I am sure you will reply with something because you always do. If you can't help it, then reply.

My project today has about a 20 minute refresh rate so I have many slices of time to fill!

But I stand by what I said with morals and values that I am comfortable with.

That's great.

However, I an sure that at least some of the people who were told not to report the events for the sake of the F&W thought long and hard about the decision they had to make. If you read the letters regarding events like this you can see the anguish in their reports of the events. This is not the type of a decision that most parents would take lightly and to call them 'spineless' and whatever terms you have in mind does not add any benefit.

Or course, looking back and from afar, one could question why they decided as they did. But knowing a little about their beliefs one can understand the issues they were facing and why they made the decisions they did. And while the basis of their beliefs seem seem flawed they did stand up for what they believed.

Decisions of this magnitude are not decisions that most parents take lightly and, in hindsight, they are probably decisions that the parents regret. Berating them for the decisions they made and calling them spineless, and here I am speaking only for myself, seems cruel.

Post by rational on Oct 27, 2016 14:12:29 GMT -5

"they may well be willing to not report a person who they equate with someone who has the power to excommunicate them with the end result, in their mind, to have them end up in hell. "

That is the saddest thing I have had enter my mind in 2016. For any who feel this way about power the workers have... I can't even...

The discussion is about abuse that happened not in 2016 but decades earlier and the letters and testimonies people have left do tend to support the idea that people did have this idea regarding the power of the workers. And not reporting the workers was because of this belief and other statements such as "There are so few workers in the field that we must support the ones who remain".

Post by LITTLEPADDY on Nov 8, 2016 11:53:49 GMT -5

The ABUSED awake if there lucky enough to sleep to another day of the broken life of a sexually abused person

As I have said before the abused are Sentenced To Life Without Reprieve Their families and close friends suffer as they watch their loved ones inwardly die before themSo many lives ruined by one hypocritical low life that abused the trust that had been put in himy

Noel has pleaded guilty and will be sentenced Won't heal wounds but ensure hopefully he won't ruin any more lives

Where is the Love now being shown to the abused why does the neglect continue and the "don't mention the war" cover up still continue Those who ensured there was a cover up and we're aware of what happened should go home and stop letting on they have done nothing wrong My heart bleeds for the abused in more than one way some lasting around 50 years

Post by wally on Nov 8, 2016 11:59:02 GMT -5

The ABUSED awake if there lucky enough to sleep to another day of the broken life of a sexually abused person

As I have said before the abused are Sentenced To Life Without Reprieve Their families and close friends suffer as they watch their loved ones inwardly die before themSo many lives ruined by one hypocritical low life that abused the trust that had been put in himy

Noel has pleaded guilty and will be sentenced Won't heal wounds but ensure hopefully he won't ruin any more lives

Where is the Love now being shown to the abused why does the neglect continue and the "don't mention the war" cover up still continue Those who ensured there was a cover up and we're aware of what happened should go home and stop letting on they have done nothing wrong My heart bleeds for the abused in more than one way some lasting around 50 years

you do know that some people get counseling and rebuild thier lives right?

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Post by LITTLEPADDY on Nov 8, 2016 15:21:29 GMT -5

Yes Some do and some never willThe ongoing treatment of the abused by those that claim to be portraying God's love is this displayed by cover up neglect etc It is hard to benefit from counselling when this part of the abuse is ongoing

Post by fixit on Nov 8, 2016 16:01:46 GMT -5

As I have said before the abused are Sentenced To Life Without Reprieve Their families and close friends suffer as they watch their loved ones inwardly die before themSo many lives ruined by one hypocritical low life that abused the trust that had been put in himy

Noel has pleaded guilty and will be sentenced Won't heal wounds but ensure hopefully he won't ruin any more lives

Where is the Love now being shown to the abused why does the neglect continue and the "don't mention the war" cover up still continue Those who ensured there was a cover up and we're aware of what happened should go home and stop letting on they have done nothing wrong My heart bleeds for the abused in more than one way some lasting around 50 years

you do know that some people get counseling and rebuild thier lives right?

Caution: My posts are my opinions only and are not intended to offend other members. You're entitled to your opinion, as I am mine!Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. ~ Romans 13:13 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery. ~ Galatians 5:19Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. ~ Ephesians 5:11

I'm all for counselling, but it has limitations. Let's not pretend it can "rebuild" something that is no longer there.

Looking at this from the side of having worked with 100's of people who have been in counseling and been involved with the follow-up as well I am wondering what you feel the limitations are and what is no longer there?

Post by rational on Nov 9, 2016 10:22:34 GMT -5

Yes Some do and some never willThe ongoing treatment of the abused by those that claim to be portraying God's love is this displayed by cover up neglect etc It is hard to benefit from counselling when this part of the abuse is ongoing

What are the ages of the abused that you are addressing? Can you explain what you consider the ongoing abuse?

Post by LITTLEPADDY on Nov 9, 2016 20:28:28 GMT -5

I personally (nothing to do with this case) have had counselling of different kinds and have not been helped But that is irrelevant

With regards to the victims ages I can not be sure as I don't know all of his victims I would guess from mid 40<70Most tried burying it and it eventually erupted Some felt they would never be believed because Noel Tanner was a workerSome never told their parents

The ongoing abuse I refer to is of at least 2 formsThe fact of having to face the day or night knowing you were assaulted Flashbacks and the feeling of worthlessness Secondly A lot if not all the workers Do Know most if not all that were interfered with in a sexual manner All down the years the worker's attitude was say nothing about it Don't rock the boat we'll ignore you in case you bring the crime up avoidance at convention neglect and generally looked down on

Some may have been given "place" to say nothing as their words would have carried weight I don't think Avoidance Neglect Coverup are Fruits of the Spirit but it would seem some workers must see it that wayThe way the abused have been treated by the senior workers powers that be is ongoing abuse and does insinuate that the abused did something wrong

Post by wally on Nov 9, 2016 21:13:15 GMT -5

Jas_5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.1Pe_4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

these are the verses that are probably being used to cover up stuff....

Post by LITTLEPADDY on Nov 10, 2016 5:51:03 GMT -5

Jas_5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.1Pe_4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

these are the verses that are probably being used to cover up stuff....

Yes very true but that doesn't cover up since it says get up and show your love to the abused Some are at the stage where sorry is to late but at least the workers should be manly sorry Godly enough to admit they have let the abused downLove is an action not just a nod of the head but that was even too much for some

I'm all for counselling, but it has limitations. Let's not pretend it can "rebuild" something that is no longer there.

Yes, and that something is called trust, real trust.

Trust is part of it.

Anyone who sincerely wants to understand child sexual abuse can do the research themselves.

Caution: My posts are my opinions only and are not intended to offend other members. You're entitled to your opinion, as I am mine!Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. ~ Romans 13:13 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery. ~ Galatians 5:19Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. ~ Ephesians 5:11

Post by rational on Nov 10, 2016 18:11:27 GMT -5

I personally (nothing to do with this case) have had counselling of different kinds and have not been helped But that is irrelevant

Yes.

With regards to the victims ages I can not be sure as I don't know all of his victims I would guess from mid 40<70

So they are, for the most part, adults.

Most tried burying it and it eventually erupted

Not an uncommon event.

Some felt they would never be believed because Noel Tanner was a workerSome never told their parents

Common in these cases.

The ongoing abuse I refer to is of at least 2 formsThe fact of having to face the day or night knowing you were assaulted Flashbacks and the feeling of worthlessness

Not really abuse but a condition which needs to be addressed by a professional who works with this type of occurrence.

Secondly A lot if not all the workers Do Know most if not all that were interfered with in a sexual manner All down the years the worker's attitude was say nothing about it Don't rock the boat we'll ignore you in case you bring the crime up avoidance at convention neglect and generally looked down on

If this is the case why would you go gto convention or associate with the workers in any way?

Some may have been given "place" to say nothing as their words would have carried weight

This is a choice the person makes.

I don't think Avoidance Neglect Coverup are Fruits of the Spirit but it would seem some workers must see it that way

This is a crime. Fruits of the spirit is based on a belief system. Mixing the two has no benefit, as you have noted.

The way the abused have been treated by the senior workers powers that be is ongoing abuse and does insinuate that the abused did something wrong

They are adults and choose to remain in the organization with the workers. This can hardly be considered abuse since they choose to remain in the system.

Post by LITTLEPADDY on Nov 10, 2016 19:48:50 GMT -5

Hi rationalFirstly I may have misled you in stating victims are now 40<70 years old. When assaulted the greater majority would have been minors with some young adults also. I am not sure of how old his eldest victim was Secondly I am not a person who has much to do with the workers only see them a few times a year I am a person who would be associated with with the F&W and like some of the abused believe that a number of workers and friends are good Godly people who can be of great encouragement and helpful

I believe in trying my best to serve God in the way he has planned in following his Son I try to live by Christ's teaching and be led and taught by the Comforter

I am not a GAMBLITE and if it is not in the scriptures I believe in guidance by prayer I feel sorry for those who spend their lifes following the workers

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