It is my own personal belief, based on my own personal experience (so not at all validated or scientific) that there is a lot that folks with Asp. or Aut. have to offer, like a distilled ability to see patterns and innovate. Human communication, and thus thought predicated on language, is messy, messy, messy, messy. Language confuses abstract issues, restricts the formation of some thoughts, and then there's the "communicating with other humans bound by the same constraints" problem.

The very problems that signify Asp. and Aut. are strengths too. Without the messy messy interference of language and social constructs, they have a freedom of thought that we Neural Typicals don't often have. The problem then comes in how to communicate those thoughts.

I personally (and again this is not in any way externally validated) believe that ASD are NOT a brain pathology, but a human language pathology.

If we assimilated different kinds of language (like spoken/written English, plus iconographic Chinese, and American Sign Language) we would be able to better communicate thoughts and ideas and we'd have mechanisms that would allow ASD folks to find a voice. Instead of sorting through all the rules and exceptions of language to tell me how the bird flew, a signed description with words added for emphasis or detail would communicate so much more, and someone with ASD would not "look" different with that kind of communication system.

Like I said, it's a wholly unsupported assertion, but maybe recognizing that problems that ASD folks have are not THEIR problems, but OUR problems, would change how they live and how they are treated.

It is my own personal belief, based on my own personal experience (so not at all validated or scientific) that there is a lot that folks with Asp. or Aut. have to offer, like a distilled ability to see patterns and innovate. Human communication, and thus thought predicated on language, is messy, messy, messy, messy. Language confuses abstract issues, restricts the formation of some thoughts, and then there's the "communicating with other humans bound by the same constraints" problem.

The very problems that signify Asp. and Aut. are strengths too. Without the messy messy interference of language and social constructs, they have a freedom of thought that we Neural Typicals don't often have. The problem then comes in how to communicate those thoughts.

I personally (and again this is not in any way externally validated) believe that ASD are NOT a brain pathology, but a human language pathology.

If we assimilated different kinds of language (like spoken/written English, plus iconographic Chinese, and American Sign Language) we would be able to better communicate thoughts and ideas and we'd have mechanisms that would allow ASD folks to find a voice. Instead of sorting through all the rules and exceptions of language to tell me how the bird flew, a signed description with words added for emphasis or detail would communicate so much more, and someone with ASD would not "look" different with that kind of communication system.

Like I said, it's a wholly unsupported assertion, but maybe recognizing that problems that ASD folks have are not THEIR problems, but OUR problems, would change how they live and how they are treated.

I see your point, and I think it's a good idea that could be possibly be best used specifically toward folks with Asperger's.
My own personal brush with someone with autism (again, not externally validated evidence) was with someone who was so severely disabled that they had no speech at all except for screaming. Sign language didn't work, pictures mostly did not work, so I'm not sure how we can adapt our language to speak with someone who has no discernible way of communicating with language. Although, now that I've said that, perhaps if we could integrate Klingon Language instead of the screaming, we might be able to have a two way conversation.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness
~Izel

Yes, Erxomai, always Klingon. I agree, there are those who can't communicate at all with language. But if we, as a whole, shift how we think of language, and how we define language, language's organic evolution will be more likely to finally incorporate those presently left out. Baby steps, and more Klingon.

(19-12-2012 01:05 PM)ScienceGeek2587 Wrote: Yes, Erxomai, always Klingon. I agree, there are those who can't communicate at all with language. But if we, as a whole, shift how we think of language, and how we define language, language's organic evolution will be more likely to finally incorporate those presently left out. Baby steps, and more Klingon.

There really isn't much in life that can't be solved through Star Trek.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness
~Izel

(19-12-2012 01:05 PM)ScienceGeek2587 Wrote: Yes, Erxomai, always Klingon. I agree, there are those who can't communicate at all with language. But if we, as a whole, shift how we think of language, and how we define language, language's organic evolution will be more likely to finally incorporate those presently left out. Baby steps, and more Klingon.

There really isn't much in life that can't be solved through Star Trek.

I find the greatest wisdom can be found not in ancient texts, but geek/nerd texts: the works of Stan Lee, Firefly, X-Files, BSG, Star Wars...but of most import: Star Trek and Doctor Who.

Actually, the whole of human history (and the human life cycle) can be summed up as:

"If you can't run, you walk, if you can't walk, you crawl, and if you can't crawl, find someone to carry you."
"Frak."
"With great power comes great responsibility."
"Are you my mummy?"
"Frak!"
"Make it so."
"Live long and prosper."
"What is the point of you all?"
"I don't want to go."

I'm not sure Klingon would help. Despite its strangeness and complexity, it's actually a human-like language that doesn't do anything that can't be done in real languages. And it works very much on the known principles of human language. Same is true for the conlangs (constructed languages) since Klingon that have received major attention. (So I've heard.)

There are interesting things coming out of the Language Creation Society, though. For example, one member has worked on a gestural contact language based on touching hands, so that two people watching a movie together in a dark theater could carry on a conversation without disturbing anyone else. I have no idea whether something like that would be useful for some children with autism. (Obviously not for the ones who don't like to be touched!)

Religious disputes are like arguments in a madhouse over which inmate really is Napoleon.

(19-12-2012 01:40 PM)cufflink Wrote: I'm not sure Klingon would help. Despite its strangeness and complexity, it's actually a human-like language that doesn't do anything that can't be done in real languages. And it works very much on the known principles of human language. Same is true for the conlangs (constructed languages) since Klingon that have received major attention. (So I've heard.)

There are interesting things coming out of the Language Creation Society, though. For example, one member has worked on a gestural contact language based on touching hands, so that two people watching a movie together in a dark theater could carry on a conversation without disturbing anyone else. I have no idea whether something like that would be useful for some children with autism. (Obviously not for the ones who don't like to be touched!)

Spoken like a true linguistics geek.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness
~Izel

(19-12-2012 01:40 PM)cufflink Wrote: I'm not sure Klingon would help. Despite its strangeness and complexity, it's actually a human-like language that doesn't do anything that can't be done in real languages. And it works very much on the known principles of human language. Same is true for the conlangs (constructed languages) since Klingon that have received major attention. (So I've heard.)

There are interesting things coming out of the Language Creation Society, though. For example, one member has worked on a gestural contact language based on touching hands, so that two people watching a movie together in a dark theater could carry on a conversation without disturbing anyone else. I have no idea whether something like that would be useful for some children with autism. (Obviously not for the ones who don't like to be touched!)

It is my own personal belief, based on my own personal experience (so not at all validated or scientific) that there is a lot that folks with Asp. or Aut. have to offer, like a distilled ability to see patterns and innovate. Human communication, and thus thought predicated on language, is messy, messy, messy, messy. Language confuses abstract issues, restricts the formation of some thoughts, and then there's the "communicating with other humans bound by the same constraints" problem.

The very problems that signify Asp. and Aut. are strengths too. Without the messy messy interference of language and social constructs, they have a freedom of thought that we Neural Typicals don't often have. The problem then comes in how to communicate those thoughts.

I personally (and again this is not in any way externally validated) believe that ASD are NOT a brain pathology, but a human language pathology.

If we assimilated different kinds of language (like spoken/written English, plus iconographic Chinese, and American Sign Language) we would be able to better communicate thoughts and ideas and we'd have mechanisms that would allow ASD folks to find a voice. Instead of sorting through all the rules and exceptions of language to tell me how the bird flew, a signed description with words added for emphasis or detail would communicate so much more, and someone with ASD would not "look" different with that kind of communication system.

Like I said, it's a wholly unsupported assertion, but maybe recognizing that problems that ASD folks have are not THEIR problems, but OUR problems, would change how they live and how they are treated.

OK, I'd say I can see patterns and innovate. I do a lot of that, no argument here. I'll be happy in life when I reach a job where I can do it full time.
But I wouldn't say the problem is in language. It's a problem of communication and awareness in the broadest sense. It's not messy, it's just ancient and works automatically, mostly beyond our control. Forget the school vocabulary. It's the evolutionary orchestra of micro and macroscopic body language that people play in a group and did so for millions of years. Even dogs are sensitive to it.
A neurotypical's brain is like a modern computer, equipped with graphics card, sound card, physics card, network card... so the processor is free to do whatever it likes, to have fun in a rich MMORPG world full of other computers.

Aspie brain is like a processor only, without any special processing cards to handle basic tasks and connect with others. The CPU has to do all that besides its normal work. In some cases it may be a powerful processor, but it handles only one process at one moment.
For example, there's no sound card. If I want to speak in a warm, affective voice, I have to take a moment to consciously to modulate the pitch and timbre and the dynamics to mark the accent of beginning and end of the sentence, according to the emotion I want to communicate. (though I suspect it sounds a bit fake anyway) So I have to know beforehand what do I want to say. When surprised (sudden casual greetings etc) I may reply in a toneless voice, which sounds very weakly, timid, careless or just weird. It's nothing personal, I just didn't have time to size up the person and prepare the voice.
Years ago I had a roommate who spoke always like that. Looking back, he might have been quite autistic himself. Never spoke a word all day long, hardly replied to a greeting and only lied on bed, playing web games on his netbook.