Discussion in 'Intelligence & Machines' started by Cris, Mar 29, 2001.

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1. ### CrisIn search of ImmortalityValued Senior Member

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9,189

Making the assumption for the moment that Uploading WILL occur sometime in the future, then what will life be like as an upload? We will have to make further assumptions on the capabilities of an upload and the differences compared to biological forms.

I’ve copied the post from tablariddim from the Forum Introduction as a good start to this thread.

Let’s assume for the moment the probable typical upload choice – that of the robotic or android like body shell. The early forms will probably not be too sophisticated but these would certainly be improved upon given a few decades and centuries for enhancements. I start the story at a time set a few decades into the upload movement when the body shells are more advanced and where there are whole cities of uploads.

Let’s also assume that all emotions and desires have been copied intact and that the body shell resembles a human form in most aspects. This would be the least traumatic choice in the beginning, but there would be no reason to limit oneself to just one shape of body shell. You could perhaps use a different shell at different times in the same way that we would change clothes today. If one is undertaking some form of construction task then a shell with 6 arms and telescopic joints might be useful. I suspect that our imagination and inventiveness will conceive some very strange and unrecognizable shells.

But first some basic differences from a bio existence.

1. No need to eat or drink, and hence no defecation or urinal needs.
2. Limbs and joints would not become tired from staying in one position for any length of time, so sitting or lying down would have little meaning or benefit.
3. No teeth to clean.
4. No nails to clip.
5. No hair to comb, brush, cut.
6. A regular wash and polish will probably be desirable.
7. A walk, jog, or run of any distance without tiring would be possible depending on battery reserves.
8. Sleep might not be needed, or its nature might be quite different and probably shorter.
9. Plugging oneself in or being near a wireless receiver for a regular daily brain dump (backup) to a central storage facility would be advisable, probably best done during a sleep cycle.
10. And swimming, great, no need to breath – but buoyancy will be different maybe.

Ok so that’s my first 10 items, feel free to add some more.

No kitchen needed, no bathroom, although some form of washing facility will be required, perhaps just a shower cubicle. Probably no bedroom, one could sleep (if needed) standing up. No heating or air conditioning needed. And enhanced infrared vision will mean that light levels could be near zero.

But what about sex? So much of our society is geared around this extremely powerful evolutionary instinct. An uploaded society with unlimited life spans would have little if any need to procreate. So recreational sex would be all that would be available. But the term ‘sex’ here also seems inappropriate. If the engineers have done their job well and have isolated the pleasure centers of the brain, then pleasure stimulating sensors could be placed anywhere on one’s shell, and the sensitivity and magnitude could also be adjusted. I imagine there would be a whole sub-culture and industry dedicated to variations on this theme. Either self-eroticism would be fine, or groups, or whatever – no limits – but it wouldn’t be biological, just more intense, if desired.

That’s enough for a start. Comments anyone?

Cris

3. ### FA_Q2MemberRegistered Senior Member

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A different approach......

I see a different type of shell to begin with.

Why would you need arms, Legs or anything else for that matter? The first shell may be a box, like a computer, that you will reside in but have complete control over. Your existence might be something like that of SID2000 in that one movie, can't recall the name at this point. Your own world, VR. Of course this will only be available to the extremely rich at firs. This makes for a very unusual class division. Eventually bodies will be needed as poorer people get uploaded into machines but these will not necessarily be bodies to live in, just control. No feeling will be necessary and design relatively simple. I see this as a much more powerful tool and easier to develop. There is no need of complex body structures to hoes people, just the CPU's themselves. Housing is unnecessary and you could visit mars without a problem. Just enter a body there and cruse around awhile. If you want to feel anything there, simply go to a simulation. I can only begin to imagine how man will interact within this new world. Ill guess Ill just have to wait and hope Ill see it.

5. ### CrisIn search of ImmortalityValued Senior Member

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9,189
FA,

Indeed a Virtual Reality environment may well be the initial training ground for uploads, and perhaps for some there would be no desire for any other form of existence. But there is still likely to be the need to work and at least fund one’s own power usage, and for this an existence in the physical world will almost certainly be required.

I agree that travel could be as easy as having one’s brain pattern transmitted to the target destination and uploaded into a suitable shell or holding device. The problem here will be the accidental creation of duplicates. At some point the original brain pattern must be purged from its source shell, presumably when the target shell reports a completed receipt. But I see potential for error and misuse here.

This introduces the issue of identity and duplicates in general. Do we want to have numerous copies of the same upload, e.g. instant families? And how should we assign identities in such a situation.

Cris

7. ### CrisIn search of ImmortalityValued Senior Member

Messages:
9,189
Costs and Care

Costs and care.

Thinking about it a little more, I doubt that many uploads will have access to multiple shells. It is quite likely that a robotic shell will be a complex and sophisticated electro-mechanical machine that is both lightweight relative to its strength, and subtle and lithe, as we would expect from a bio-shell replacement. The cost of such machines is likely to be significant and only the very rich would be able to afford multiple versions.

Just like automobiles of today, the upload shells will very likely come in many types and models, the sophistication will depend on your wealth. The brain module, however, may well be a plug-in unit that can be upgraded independently of the shell. It is the brain unit that is the real you in the sense of how much memory you have and your processing speed (a significant factor in deciding your level of intelligence).

Given the significant cost of the hardware, uploads are likely to take significant care of their shells. If the shell is damaged beyond repair and the upload has too few funds then one could imagine a disabled upload with limited mobility or perhaps even limited to a VR environment. Perhaps having appropriate insurance might help prevent such conditions.

On the other hand the wealthy uploads may crash and damage their shells regularly and may even be prepared to risk damaging their brain units knowing that they have spare units that can accept their latest backups. To a large extent such irresponsible activities would serve little purpose since a destroyed brain unit will have lost all memory since the last backup. The upload once re-constituted from its backup will therefore have gained nothing from a fatal accident. So it seems likely that most uploads will take great care with protecting their shells and especially their brain units.

Cris

8. ### CrispGone 4everRegistered Senior Member

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1,339
Hi all,

I personally don't see the use of uploading your mind to a mechanical device - which I think is, as was mentioned in the "Forum Introduction" thread, a way to avoid a mental or "conscious" death (by which I mean that you actually know that your last breathe of air will actually be the last).

Even if you succeed in copying your mind to a machine, you as a being are not transfered to it: that machine will be like a clone of yourself, but you will not be able to think what it thinks: from the moment the upload is complete, you've created a new entity that feels and thinks a lot like you, but isn't you. The same happens with the cloning of a person. Even though the clone looks the same and might resemble the "original" person a lot, they are two different beings who think individually.

So in the end your body and brain will still die and when you exhale your last breathe, you will know it's all over: you as a person, as an individual stop living at that moment. The only consolation you have is that somewhere out there, your memories are still contained within a box that will never be accessible to you again.

As a sidenote, I think we would need a large load of psychiatrists ready for our "uploaded" friends. In my personal opinion, it must be a very frustrating thought to know that you can or will live forever (I for one, am glad to know that one day I will die, and - sorry my religous friends - I do not believe in an afterlife). Imagine you would have to see generations and generations of humans come and make the same socio-political mistakes over and over again. Very frustrating indeed.

Nevertheless, if it ever happens (and Cris, you are right, it will happen one day), then it might be a good idea for society to think about all this (something we probably should have done a long time before the cloning of humans became a reality, which I think is closely related to this subject).

Bye,

Crisp

9. ### CrisIn search of ImmortalityValued Senior Member

Messages:
9,189
Crisp,

OK, I see your point, but exactly what aspect of the biological ‘person’ will not be transferred to the new format? One of the objectives of MU is that all memories must be transferred intact and the mind (the processing part) once uploaded must ‘feel’ the same. What else is there? The identity of a person is memory. Remove their memory and they have no identity.

Human cloning is entirely different to MU. In cloning only the physical structures will be the same, well almost. The memories and life experiences will be entirely different and that will create a very different individual compared to the original. I say the structure will be the same but the brain will absorb different experiences and will certainly have different neural connections, effectively creating new and unique electrical patterns.

Cris

10. ### tablariddimforexU2Valued Senior Member

Messages:
4,795
only good for terminators

Dear Cris,

[1. No need to eat or drink, and hence no defecation or urinal needs.]

But we'll lose 4 fundamental pleasure feelings which are so intergral to being human. Also, eating and drinking is probably our greatest incentive to living and working! Some people actually live to eat, so great is the pleasure they derive from it.

Can you imagine NO food/beverage related industries? What will happen to all the unemployed?

[2. Limbs and joints would not become tired from staying in one position for any length of time, so sitting or lying down would have little meaning or benefit.]

Again, we lose pleasure feelings. You know, like the pleasure of resting or relaxing after a hard day. Or the ecstasy of going beyond your own pain barrier, as happens to joggers.

[3. No teeth to clean.]
[4. No nails to clip.]
[5. No hair to comb, brush, cut.]

I can live with that, but again we shall lose massive industries! And all vain people will have nothing to think/talk/worry about.

[6. A regular wash and polish will probably be desirable.]

Very much so, it will probably have to be extremely elaborate, to make up for the losses mentioned above.

[7. A walk, jog, or run of any distance without tiring would be possible depending on battery reserves.]

No challenge--no fun. No pain--no gain. No need--no point! Batteries? Too primitive and inefficient, better to eat and drink our energy needs, perhaps boosted by batteries!

[8. Sleep might not be needed, or its nature might be quite different and probably shorter.]

Loss of pleasures and industries.

[9. Plugging oneself in or being near a wireless receiver for a regular daily brain dump (backup) to a central storage facility would be advisable, probably best done during a sleep cycle.]

Man, I'm reluctant to even give my Email address to some central storage facility, let alone my brain! It's a non-starter.

[10. And swimming, great, no need to breath – but buoyancy will be different maybe.]

Ok, but if it's not for the exercise and the pleasures and benefits associated with it, who would want to?

Further,
(A) I think our bodies, feelings, emotions, instincts etc, are so intertwined with our minds (which process information in organically and subtly unique ways for each individual), that it may actually be impossible to emulate humans fully.
(B) Assuming we do create these super-humans (and even super-animals) and they WILL be. It would mean the end of humanity as we know it, with unknown and incredibly mind boggling challenges to this species and others.
(C) A species that will probably be able to colonise other planets pretty soon after it's created, will have absolutely no incentive to look after and care for this planet, or it's inherent life forms.
(D) This new species will eventually have no respect and no need, for the remainder of humanity.
(E) With no need for food or drink, or oxygen, no pain, no sickness, super intelligence and virtual immortality. Whatever incentives this new species will need to do things, is both unfathomable and probably, incredibly dangerous to its creators.

You know, they say God created man in his own image. I look at what we're attempting to do now and it makes me wonder... did we kill God?

11. ### CrispGone 4everRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
1,339
Hi Cris,

Ah, now we're getting to the one and only assumption you make when you say that you can live forever after the death of your body: You assume that once your mind has been uploaded, you will consciously know, think and feel the same as your uploaded mind.

I think this is not what will happen, and mostly for philosophical reasons:

How do you know who you are ? Because you think you are yourself. You are reading this now, and you are sitting in your chair. You experience all this in person. Your eyes perceive the flashes of light from your screen. You feel your hand on your keyboard, mouse or desk (or whereever it is now). Because everything you experience are senses that originate from some part of your own body, you know you are yourself. A person standing next to you knows he is not the one sitting in your chair because he can feel his own weight on the ground, in his feet. You feel your weight from your bottom in that chair.

Suppose you attach a set of "eyes" (or camera's, CCD's) to the machine your mind has been uploaded to, and in some ingenious way figure out how to connect this to your mind-in-the-machine. Do you see what your mind in the machine sees ? If you walk out of the room where your uploaded mind-in-the-machine is, will you still consciously know everything that happens in that room ?
I don't think so : simply because the perceptions your emulated mind-in-the-machine-in-the-other-room has, are no longer experienced by your own mind.

Let's do a small gedankenexperiment. In the year 2020, you, Cris, get your mind uploaded to a machine which we shall call "Risc".

Sidenote: this name is just something that popped in my head - do not start searching for any meanings in it, please. That is not the intention

.

So in the year 2020, we have two copies of the exact same brain: one is the actual brain in Cris, the other is the emulated brain in Risc. If we ask Cris what year he was born, he will say "1970" (fictional). If we ask the very same thing to Risc, he will also say "1970" because the emulated neurons process that question in the same way the real neurons in Cris' brain would.

Now let's seperate them for a year. Cris can go on with his life, and we put Risc in a room and start lecturing him/her an advanced course in quantummechanics. Cris however, has never had such a course.

Sidenote: Replace "highly advanced course in quantummechanics" with whatever you do not know yet at the time of uploading - my excuses to you Cris if you happen to be a QM-specialist, I just have to make something up here

After one year, we bring Cris and Risc back together and ask them to solve a problem that only someone who has had that highly advanced course in QM could solve.

Question: While we are sure Risc will be able to solve it, will Cris be able to do so too ?

Once again: I think he will not (in the light of this gedankenexperiment that is, see previous sidenote). The knowledge gained by Risc in emulated/mechanical neurons is not transmitted to Cris' neurons, because the two brains/minds are physically seperated. Once the upload is complete, all perceptions, thoughts and memories of Risc are independant of those of Cris.

In the light of the "How do you know who you are" argument stated above, you can say that Risc is another "person". Risc and Cris both know and remember the same things up to that glorious day in 2020 when the upload occured. From that moment on, the thoughts of Risc and Cris got seperated and they lived on as two different persons afterwards.

So to get back to the meaning of the mind uploading as a way to cheat death: the biological mind dies, and it knows this (when you exhale your last breath and feel your body slipping away, the last thing that flashes through your mind will be "this is the last time i will breathe out"). In the meanwhile, your uploaded mind just lives on as it always has, not knowing its original biological counterpart has passed away. Your biological mind is no longer aware of this: it is not able to perceive, feel and know things the uploaded mind does.

This reminds me of a documentary I once saw on a woman whose brain got split in two parts (during an operation). Both parts of her brain functioned independantly: when she was dressing up, one hand would grab a robe while the other already was holding a pair of pants. She did not consciously know her other hand was holding that pair of pants, suggesting that she, at that time had two personalities.

I'll need someone with more experience in the field to help me out on this one, but I think this example can be used to prove my point: there are indications that neural networks hold their memories not in individual neurons, but in the network as a whole. The information just degrades if some neurons of the network stop functioning/disappear, but the memory itself never completely disappears. The amount of degradation is related to the amount of neurons that stop functioning. So if you split a neural network in half, you would get two networks with the same memories, operating independantly.

Replace "neural network" by "brain", and remark that human brains only use 5-10% of their capacity (meaning that if half of the neurons are missing, the influence on the memories is not that large), and you get the situation of that particular woman. Two individuals in one body, unaware of eachother's presence. This scenario can be copied directly to the "one-mind-in-one-body and uploaded-mind-in-machine" situation we are discussing here.

I've tried to avoid to use of the word, but ... soul ?

Bye!

Crisp.

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2,279
I foresee a great market in MU clinics, perhaps using the name "McKevorkians" (not registered, use it if you wish), where minds will be uploaded, for a fee, of course. I see great potential in the $25-50K range, with fewer options available below that range, and a much larger number of options for substantially higher sums. Naturally, oh silly me, artificially, there will be a tasteful room, unnamed but perhaps called the departorium. where the less enlightened can bid adieu to the dearly departed, no, the merely transferred. Also, there will be the body shop, er, the computer room, no... the...arrivorium, yes, the arrivorium, where the more enlightened can welcome the newly transferred into his beige box. Naturally, drat, artificially, there will be a gift shop where one can purchase tasteful bumper stickers with such heart-warming little maxims as, "My knee STILL hurts" or "married, but not dead, oh sorry, dead but still here, and STILL married" or "What was I thinking? Where's that box of disks?" or "Congratulate me. I willed everything to myself" or "Bon U-turn" or "Caution. No one on board." Of course, there will be an on-site legal and psychiatric team to handle such things as probate, computer-in-law issues and antiquated statutes that refer to "persons," etc. Yes, as Crisp, says, "a large load." 13. ### genevaRegistered Member Messages: 10 Evolution! How could this be good? How do you know you wouldn't be used as a application, like the one you use every day. You would not learn anything new because you would not be able to grow new braincells all that would be transferred would be memories. you would end up of living you're life as a slave to the mind computing data and pushing binary all day long.(reminds me of where I work). And transferring you're memories is all you want then theoretically we already can... try telepathy!(read my other posting on telepathy). I could see cloning yourself and implanting the memories at a young age could be good but that clone would never evolve it would have the same genetic structure as you. all you would be able to do is learn a eternity of knowledge. and live one to. And is you're mind that important were all this time and effort would pay off to preserve you're brain I don't see you working for jpl or president or anything of that sort. 14. ### CrisIn search of ImmortalityValued Senior Member Messages: 9,189 Re: Evolution! Hi Geneva, Don’t think ‘brain cells’ think neural connections. These would be implemented in software and would begin with the potential of having far more connections than the biological equivalent. Each node would effectively be a chain of pointers to other nodes. It is these connections between nodes that form the thought and memory patterns. The chains would be constantly undergoing changes and new patterns would be being formed and destroyed. The only limitations would be the sizes of the arrays allowed in the software and there would be no good reason to set these low. If the uploaded person begins to ‘feel’ limits to thoughts or memories then that would signal that a memory upgrade is due. Memory in this sense will be the chip media holding the neural connection data. In essence there should be no limitations to neural growth, unlike a biological being whose cranial size and neural firing speeds seriously limits growth and further rapid evolutionary changes. Cris 15. ### CrisIn search of ImmortalityValued Senior Member Messages: 9,189 Re: puting the mind in a box Geneva, That seemed like an interesting random selection of ideas. I’m not sure they flowed together very well. I’m not really comfortable with nano technology yet but I see MU as requiring a coordinated massively parallel processing paradigm, whereas nano techniques seem to be based more on uncoordinated independent processing. So I don’t see that nano techniques would be good substrate for an uploaded mind. I suspect this will occur as a method for procreation – i.e. creating new individuals. But MU must start with the transfer/transition of existing individuals – i.e. a copy of neural patterns. I have no real feel for price in either case. Efficiency wouldn’t be relevant since the objective is an instant transfer/transition/upload. I agree that recognition and prevention of transition trauma may well be an issue. I would hope that a new upload could perhaps be uploaded gradually, similar to a human being having sedation medications slowly withdrawn, and thus avoiding the sudden shock of transition from one form to another instantly. The upload mechanism will of course take into account the individual patterns – there is no implication that all uploads will be the same. Nope, I don’t understand what you meant by that. 16. ### genevaRegistered Member Messages: 10 as i was trying to say earlier Human is constantly evolving naturally in fact every hundred years we start off with thousands of more brain cells, By uploading are minds to computers and artificial bodies we would stop are natural process of evolution the line between man and machine is already very fuzzy and some points vanish's. By definition of machine we are bio organic machines, are minds can be programmed, and self programmed to do the things we want. The current defining point is the self programmability. which is what are definition of intelligence is. But this difference does not exist anymore, there is a super computer in Belgium that can program itself at a incredible rate. The first true signs of artificial intelligence, but if its intelligent an creates it own reality and learns, is it artificial NO. artificial intelligence is man made smarts, where it is programmed to simulate intelligence but follows the same rules programmed into it. This may not seem to be relivent to the topic but look closer. There is still one defining point between robotics and machinery and its within are genetics. its the ability to evolve through procreation, to pass are traits and characteristics. And by depending on machines it would put a slow death to the species we call human. through lack of procreation we all would not live forever through uploading are selfs, because who would maintain it. To be continued...... 17. ### CrisIn search of ImmortalityValued Senior Member Messages: 9,189 Geneva, Some key points. The rate of human biological evolution is measured in perhaps, thousands of years but practically it is millions of years. The process is also very random. Most mutations turn into dead-ends; only very few turn out to be useful. The transition away from a biological medium allows us to more easily control future changes and in the right direction. Future human evolution can be non-random and always positive. This rate of change will be measured in decades perhaps and at least just centuries. This represents a massive and dramatic fundamental change for humanity. What you call natural is simply a very slow directionless random process. I dislike the term Artificial Intelligence. Something is either intelligent or it isn’t, there is nothing artificial about intelligence. What is usually implied by the term is the comparison between human intelligence and non-human intelligence, and for now that means machine intelligence, which I think is a slightly better term. Improving the human race through human procreation will be seen as an incredibly slow process compared to the technology approach implied by MU. Simply relying on bio genetic mutations or human directed genetic engineering will always be significantly slower that the MU route. I suspect there will be those cults that will reject the MU route and they will be simply left behind on the ladder of intelligence. The MUs will be able to massively out-think bio humans within decades or centuries, becoming a new form of life. Bio-humans will be to MUs as apes are to humans now, if not worse. Cris 18. ### genevaRegistered Member Messages: 10 luca Luca is a word that means were we cam from, we evolved not from one life form but all life forms. Luca was a era in evolution were organisms would enhirete the genes of another organism through feeding as time went one multiple creations were spawned but lived symbiotic with each other like plants and animals. We give them the carbon dioxide and nutrients in the soil, and we breath it s oxygen and feed from the nutrients I gives us. If were to break that chain every thing else around would collapse. Evolution has no peak we evolve to the surrounding environment, and we as human create the environment to which we evolve to so we could be any thing we want, tough skin, and fast reflex you need not robotics for it that would be a shortcut that leads to the same thing, IF you are willing to jump down the ledge. (who knows where the shortcut may end us, after all the path is stable ground). After all we can do things robotics could never handle. I can not say against it, science is are god no matter what form. but there are the things to do, to do good for us, and there are the things to do, for the sake of doing. I can not be the judge of the results and consequences', I can only speculate. The result will depend on how we use the technology. You don't think Einstein planned to have his famous equation used to construct the atomic bomb did you? and after this how much technology do you think he released?not that much! Last edited: Apr 10, 2001 19. ### tablariddimforexU2Valued Senior Member Messages: 4,795 R U SURE? Quote by Cris: --The transition away from a biological medium allows us to more easily control future changes and in the right direction. Future human evolution can be non-random and always positive.-- Who decides the direction? Why always positive? Again, who decides the 'correct' line of evolution? 20. ### CrisIn search of ImmortalityValued Senior Member Messages: 9,189 Tab, By whom I mean the human race as opposed to a random directionless bio-chemical process. And by positive and correct direction I mean choices that do not result in fatal deceases, or chronic deformities, e.g. no dead-end mutations. Now if you want answers as to which individuals or groups will make the decisions as to which enhancements will be made then I don’t have good answers to that yet. Cris 21. ### tony1Jesus is LordRegistered Senior Member Messages: 2,279 Re: as i was trying to say earlier You may be working with the year 1900 issue, then. You need to quit toking just before you sit down at the keyboard. Your fingertips are where man ends. The keys are where machine begins. You're missing the point of MU. The MU fans believe that maintenance won't be necessary. Along with your mind being uploaded, will be the ability to self-repair. MU would be a fast directionless, random process, then? "Artificial Intelligence" does have a meaning. It means faked intelligence, as in the responses programmed into applications to simulate intelligence. As such, it will play a large role in MU. Fakery will play the largest role in MU for the simple reason that it will be impossible to tell if an "uploaded" individual is real or faked, excuse me, artificial. Impossible, that is, for those who have blind faith (as in superstition, Cris) in technology. I'd pay$10 to watch Cris sacrifice himself on the altar of MU.
Oops, did I say that out loud?
I mean, I would pay to watch Cris upload himself, perhaps by using the microtome method.

Caution: this could be one of those cults that will be left behind on the ladder of intelligence.

Review the history of communism, naziism and fascism to get an idea of what group might want to make decisions related to this issue.

22. ### genevaRegistered Member

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10
??

Tony1 , are you mocking me or agreeing with me?
dont think you fully understand either.
As i said before there is science for the furthering of mankind and there is science for the sake of doing you tell me the purpose of this and to top it all off you guys take this way to seriously when it does happen do you think are goverment will allow it, and do you want to be the test subject
(in regards to chirs), or would you have a choice when the time comes?

23. ### genevaRegistered Member

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10
EVOLUTION ? RANDOM ?

Evolution is were you evolve to best suite you're surrounding environment. We as humans create are own environment there for we have made it random no more.
you could hardly say it is random.
And luca is a scientific term highly used.
What profession do you work in you sound like you are 17 by the way you talk

quote:
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You need to quit toking just before you sit down at the keyboard.
Your fingertips are where man ends. The keys are where machine begins.
______________________________________

you are so wrong artificial limbs have been around for hundred of years scientist are working with implants for the eye to make blind see and countless other things automobile replacing horse watches that use you're movement and body heat to power then

Last edited: Apr 14, 2001
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