Topics: former FEMA Director Michael Brown testifies on Capitol Hill about his agency's reaction to Hurricane Katrina, and I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, Vice President Dick Cheney's former chief of staff, says leaks of classified information to the media were authorized by his "superiors." Guests: Republican strategist Tara Sutmayer; Michael Meyers, executive director of the New York Civil Rights Coalition; and George Curry, editor-in-chief of the National Newspaper Publishers Association News Service.
ED GORDON, host: This NEWS & NOTES. I'm Ed Gordon. On today's roundtable, a lot of Bush backlash. Joining us today to discuss these topics and more from our headquarters in Washington, D.C., Republican strategist Tara Setmayer. From our New York bureau, Michael Meyers, executive director of the New York Civil Rights Coalition, and George Curry joins us. He's editor-in-chief of the National Newspaper Publishers Association News Service. He joins us from Maryland today.</s>ED GORDON, host: All right, folks, one of the things we wanted to talk about was what a lot of people saw late Friday, and that is Michael Brown, former FEMA chief, before Congress, defending his position, suggesting that he was being scapegoated, that he wasn't going to take it. Here's an exchange between Mr. Brown and Senator Norm Coleman. Let's take a listen.</s>Senator NORM COLEMAN (Republican, Minnesota): I'm not sure you got it. I got to tell you the record, not FEMA's, but the record reflects that you didn't get it, or you didn't in writing or someway make commands that would people to do what has to be done until way after it should've been done.</s>Mr. MICHAEL BROWN (Former Director, FEMA): Senator, with all due respect, what do you want me to say? I have admitted to mistakes, publicly. I've admitted to mistakes in hearings. What more, Senator Coleman, do you want from me?</s>ED GORDON, host: The Senator went on to say, a little bit of candor would be good.</s>ED GORDON, host: Michael Meyers, when you hear someone start with, with all due respect, you know you're going to have some trouble. Michael Brown was feisty, to say the least. His suggestion is he's not going to go down with the ship. He's trying to, obviously, save some of his reputation. The contentious hearings that we saw on Friday, what do you make of all of this?</s>Mr. MICHAEL MEYERS (Executive Director, New York Civil Rights Coalition): Well, without making reference to the other headlines today, this is truly the gang that could not shoot straight. This is the gang that can't talk straight on and but for Senator Susan Collins' parliamentary maneuver to make sure that executive privilege was not invoked, we would not have had that candor, there would be no candor from Brownie--I call him Brownie.</s>Mr. MICHAEL MEYERS (Executive Director, New York Civil Rights Coalition): Look, Brownie up until recently, according to President Bush did a heck of a job. Now, I didn't know what heck of a job meant, but we do know that in a world of instant communications, there were massive communications failures, failure to read emails, failure to heed messages, failure of coordination, failure of competence, but I must tell you, this guy is beginning to sound like a scapegoat because I have to ask myself, when I was listening to the testimony, what more do you want from me? What more do you want from Brownie? He's admitted that he made big, big mistakes. Nobody else has admitted that.</s>ED GORDON, host: George Curry?</s>Mr. GEORGE CURRY (Editor-in-Chief, National Newspaper Publishers Association News Service): Well, I mean, first of all, I want to say that he's testifying only because of what Susan Collins did. I mean, he went to the White House, went to Harriet Myers, trying to get executive clemency, and they said, No--which what that did was open the door, which means...</s>Mr. MICHAEL MEYERS (Executive Director, New York Civil Rights Coalition): Executive privilege.</s>Mr. GEORGE CURRY (Editor-in-Chief, National Newspaper Publishers Association News Service): Excuse me. So all that did was open that door so that he could share communication, conversation and everything else. So the White House kind of left him out there on his own on this. But the bottom line on this is he has a serious credibility problem, and before he was always saying it was all the state and now it's local and now, all of sudden, it's all the feds. I mean, who's going to believe this character?</s>Ms. TARA SETMAYER (Republican Strategist): Well, I mean...</s>ED GORDON, host: Tara SETMAYER, it does seem to be an issue of believability when you talk about Michael Brown here.</s>Ms. TARA SETMAYER (Republican Strategist): Well, sure, and I think that--I'm not going to defend Michael Brown or what he did or what happened during those days because obviously he has an amount of culpability here that goes without saying, but it is true, these hearings, nothing new was really revealed. It was just a regurgitation of just pointing the finger and trying to put blame on someone for what was a series of serious missteps, and I think what did come out of this hearing, though, was the fact that the restructuring of FEMA under the Department of Homeland Security was obviously a huge mistake, and these are issues that we need to, we really need to consider because I think everyone wants, does not want a repeat of what happened here when the next natural disaster or terrorist attack hits.</s>Ms. TARA SETMAYER (Republican Strategist): There is an expression in Latin: pergamentum init, pergamentum exit, garbage in, garbage out, and I think that that's what has taken place with this level of bureaucracy. You don't fix an agency like this by replacing the parts. You fix it by improving the design, and I think that's we need to do...</s>ED GORDON, host: Now, Tara, we may not have seen much come out of the hearings, but what we are seeing in terms of the week that just passed, if you take a look at Lewis Scooter Libby, who is suggesting - and of course, Mr. Libby has been indicted on five counts of perjury and obstruction of justice--who is now suggesting that his superiors ordered him to leak to the press evidence to support the claim that Saddam Hussein possessed and sought weapons of mass destruction. We know that the White House has said that that has not been the case.</s>ED GORDON, host: Of course, Mr. Libby, former chief of staff here to Vice President Dick Cheney. When you take a look at that, when you take a look at Mr. Brown suggesting that, hey, we alerted the White House. We didn't get the kickback in the time that we needed, we're starting to see, perhaps even more than I've ever seen before, people who have been left out, distanced by the White House saying, wait a minute. We're not taking this. Let me tell you what really went on.</s>Mr. GEORGE CURRY (Editor-in-Chief, National Newspaper Publishers Association News Service): Well, but the problem with that, though, is that the emails show that he was consumed by how he looked, his clothing and all these other tangential matters. I mean, so it's just not a matter of him saying, the White House's not doing this and that, he's basically...</s>ED GORDON, host: No, I understand that.</s>Mr. GEORGE CURRY (Editor-in-Chief, National Newspaper Publishers Association News Service): They'll indict him. They'll indict him.</s>ED GORDON, host: I understand that, but I'm saying that juxtaposed to Scooter Libby's suggesting that, hey, I didn't do this on my own, that this, in fact, was sent down from above. When you juxtapose those, you start to look at a White House who is, at best, suggesting that they didn't know all of what their folks were doing.</s>Mr. MICHAEL MEYERS (Executive Director, New York Civil Rights Coalition): Absolutely. You're getting a very defensive posturing here, and in government scandals, what people want to know, the press and public at large want to know, is what did you know? When did you know it? At least we know with respect to Michael Brown's testimony, we know that FEMA knew and Homeland Security knew long before we thought they knew.</s>Mr. MICHAEL MEYERS (Executive Director, New York Civil Rights Coalition): We also know from Scooter Libby that people, just like Michael Brown--I agree with you, Ed--that Libby looks, to me, at least-aside from the charges of perjury--he's beginning to paint himself as a fall guy, and I can't get very hepped up about this fall guy situation because of this White House, and the White House policies and its posturing--and because I'm fearing, down the road, if there are convictions, if there are convictions, there are also going to be pardons.</s>Ms. TARA SETMAYER (Republican Strategist): (Unintelligible)</s>Mr. GEORGE CURRY (Editor-in-Chief, National Newspaper Publishers Association News Service): Well, it's beyond Libby, though, that way. It's beyond Libby because this is the way Washington operates.</s>Ms. TARA SETMAYER (Republican Strategist): Yes.</s>Mr. GEORGE CURRY (Editor-in-Chief, National Newspaper Publishers Association News Service): See this White House said it was punishing, that they would punish anybody who leaked, but at the same time, they're engaged in selective leaking. That's how the game is played in Washington, and that's part of the play, and there is no way I think Scooter Libby would have leaked or could have leaked that without the Vice President knowing it.</s>ED GORDON, host: And Tara, while we know that this is the way the game is played in Washington, what does become problematic is while you're playing the game that all of these cards start to fall at the same time.</s>Ms. TARA SETMAYER (Republican Strategist): Right, and that's the point that I was going to make before George made it before me, that this is really no different than any other White House. This is the political posturing, maneuvering that takes place everyday. Not saying that if they broke the law that...</s>ED GORDON, host: But Tara, this administration suggested that they weren't going to play the game as every other administration did. I mean, that was a big calling card for this President.</s>Ms. TARA SETMAYER (Republican Strategist): Sure, and...</s>Mr. MICHAEL MEYERS (Executive Director, New York Civil Rights Coalition): Right, and let's not paint so broadly about every other White House.</s>ED GORDON, host: Go ahead, Tara. Go ahead, Tara.</s>Ms. TARA SETMAYER (Republican Strategist): But at the same time, when you're dealing... It's very difficult in a day to day... I think that may have been a certain amount naivety involved in that and a certain amount of campaign themes that sound popular and an unrealistic promise because no matter what you do, and as admirable as that may have been, we see that that's unavoidable to certain degrees. There's so many layers involved here that it's almost unavoidable for issues like this to take place.</s>Ms. TARA SETMAYER (Republican Strategist): It happens in every administration. But we need to also remember, though, that what Scooter Libby was accused of was as nothing to do with what the original charges, what the original investigation was about. He has not been charged with disclosing Valerie Plame's identity, and wasn't that what the outrage about this entire investigation was initially about? And that's (unintelligible)...</s>ED GORDON, host: Well, that depends on which side of the fence you sit, Michael Meyers, because while that was the case for the press, the outrage from the administration was dog-gone-it, who's making these leaks, and when we find out, they will pay.</s>Mr. MICHAEL MEYERS (Executive Director, New York Civil Rights Coalition): Well, you got to remember, the prosecutor--how long had this thing started? The guy is charged--Libby is charged not only with perjury, with corruption of justice, impeding justice, the pursuit of justice, so that brings his credibility on the line, and I must tell you that when you have an administration in the White House, that just continues with the scandals of misleading the public, misleading the press, misleading us--including with so-called classified information about the weapons of mass destruction, and then having a war in Iraq, which now seems to me to be unjustified; misleading us with respect to who is being spied on in terms of surveillance.</s>Mr. MICHAEL MEYERS (Executive Director, New York Civil Rights Coalition): We have a crisis of confidence, and unfortunately, we do not have the opposition party that is capable or competent enough to bring out the real deal or a bi-partisan outrage that would bring about remedies to this kind of misconduct--and that means impeachment. That's a bipartisan remedy.</s>ED GORDON, host: George, I'm sure--that's a pretty strong word there, Michael Meyers. George, I'm sure that we will be accused...</s>Mr. MICHAEL MEYERS (Executive Director, New York Civil Rights Coalition): Because I'm sick of these scandals.</s>ED GORDON, host: ...of piling on, but I would simply say to those who are readying themselves at their keyboard, that we're just taking what's in the headlines over the course of the last couple of days. Here is yet another finger pointed back at the White House. This from, and albeit all from people who are in trouble. Jack Abramoff suggesting that, hey, this president met him at least a dozen times and this is a quote from a memo that was, a correspondence that was released, this is from Jack Abramoff, The guy saw me in almost a dozen settings and joked with me about a bunch of things, including details of my kids. Perhaps he has forgotten everything, who knows.</s>Mr. GEORGE CURRY (Editor-in-Chief, National Newspaper Publishers Association News Service): Well, I mean the White House has been really curious in terms of not wanting the pictures released, but "Time Magazine" has them this week, I understand. I don't know why they're that defensive if they have nothing to hide.</s>Mr. GEORGE CURRY (Editor-in-Chief, National Newspaper Publishers Association News Service): I mean, I suspect, considering this guy's influence, I suspect he obviously had some contacts with the White House and probably more than the administration want to admit and that he was a real power broker.</s>Ms. TARA SETMAYER (Republican Strategist): I can speak, I can speak to...</s>ED GORDON, host: All right, Tara, let's go to what you suggested earlier, the idea that this is the way the game is played. You and I both know when you give the kind of money Jack Abramoff has given, when you go more than once, more than twice, but at least a dozen times, which the White House doesn't deny, you know at some point the President or his handlers remember this guy. The money was too big.</s>Ms. TARA SETMAYER (Republican Strategist): Absolutely and I actually worked for Jack Abramoff in college and he was a different guy then. And it saddens me to see what this has turned into and, it's a shame. But anyway, as far as the president's reaction to this, I think that it was unwise for the president to come out and for the White House to come out and speak so adamantly and say, well I have no idea, I never met him, because we all know that that was obviously the case. I think that they were looking in the future.</s>Ms. TARA SETMAYER (Republican Strategist): The reason why they didn't release those photographs is because we all know this is a seriously important mid-term election and those pictures would be plastered all over the place and used as campaign material. So the White House wants to avoid that.</s>Ms. TARA SETMAYER (Republican Strategist): And the picture that Time Magazine has is one that's rather obscure with Jack Abramoff in the background. They have to have a circle around his face so you can see who it is...</s>ED GORDON, host: Yeah.</s>Ms. TARA SETMAYER (Republican Strategist): ...and to use that. Again, this is the way things are in this town. What Jack Abramoff has done, again, I've said this many times in this program, is just shown the uglier side of the power money influence in the White House and that is on both sides of the aisle.</s>Mr. MICHAEL MEYERS (Executive Director, New York Civil Rights Coalition): Well, I don't know Jack Abramoff and he's never given me any money and I'm pretty sure I never met him. I'm less concerned about the small, little pictures that the press may have as opposed to the big picture: the big picture of scandal, the big picture of the overwhelming power and corruptive influence of money, on both sides of the Congress and on both sides, both Democrats and Republicans.</s>Mr. MICHAEL MEYERS (Executive Director, New York Civil Rights Coalition): I'm really concerned about the big picture and it's getting to be the point of a Canadian situation. You can have Congress really change now because people are sick and tired of this corruption, the scandal and the perception of corruption. At the same time, one could actually meet someone 1,200 times and not know them. I remember when Ronald Regan had a cabinet member he didn't even recognize. So, it's not the little picture, it's the big picture I'm concerned about.</s>Ms. TARA SETMAYER (Republican Strategist): And also in this situation, they need to be fair because we know that Harry Reed, the Democrat majority leader in the Senate, he got $68,000.00 from Jack. He's written four letters on behalf of Indian tribes and things that Jack and his clients worked with, but yet, that is an aside. There's an asterisk next to that, we don't talk about that as much.</s>ED GORDON, host: Well, but the point here, Tara...</s>Mr. MICHAEL MEYERS (Executive Director, New York Civil Rights Coalition): I talk about it.</s>ED GORDON, host: ...is not the idea. I mean, we all know that both sides of the aisle are littered with the dead body of lobbyists who've tried to sell their ideas and push their points. The reality here though is, George Curry, whether or not you can see the White House as being up and up. Wouldn't it have been enough for the president to suggest that, look, yes, I know the guy, but I know him just in the sense of glad handing...</s>Mr. GEORGE CURRY (Editor-in-Chief, National Newspaper Publishers Association News Service): Mm hmmm.</s>ED GORDON, host: ...never had any real conversation, never met him on White House grounds, outside of public functions, et cetera, et cetera.</s>Mr. GEORGE CURRY (Editor-in-Chief, National Newspaper Publishers Association News Service): Yes, that would have been a wiser choice, but let's be clear here: Abramoff was primarily, he did give money to Democrats, but primarily, and that's not to say it doesn't happen on both sides, but primarily most of the money went to GOP, it mostly went to Republicans, particularly in leadership positions.</s>Mr. MEYER: They're the ones in power.</s>Ms. TARA SETMAYER (Republican Strategist): Because they were, that's right they were the ones, the authority...</s>Mr. GEORGE CURRY (Editor-in-Chief, National Newspaper Publishers Association News Service): Hold on, let me finish, because they can influence things. And so that's what the case has been here and so the White House is extremely, I think, they're vulnerable here because nobody wants to be tarnished by it yet you have the leaders who actually one, I think, on the Republican side who actually leased an apartment from him. I mean, this thing is just slimy on both sides and it just, I don't think there's any real prospect they're going to clean it up.</s>ED GORDON, host: Tara, let me ask you as a Republican strategist, rough week?</s>ED GORDON, host: And I mean that in the true sense. I mean you've got to figure that people, you know, after last week are looking at what do we do? What's to spend? Where do we take it?</s>Ms. TARA SETMAYER (Republican Strategist): Yes, this was, we've had better weeks...</s>Mr. GEORGE CURRY (Editor-in-Chief, National Newspaper Publishers Association News Service): (Unintelligible)?</s>Ms. TARA SETMAYER (Republican Strategist): ...but there's never a dull moment, we've had better weeks, but this, but nothing...</s>Mr. MEYER: It was a rough week for Democrats too.</s>Ms. TARA SETMAYER (Republican Strategist): ...but nothing that happened this week isn't something that we aren't able to come out of. Again, the American public has a very short memory and I'm just thankful that these incidents aren't taking place in the fall.</s>ED GORDON, host: You know, Michael, is that part of the issue? What Tara just suggested here to some degree with a little fun and flippant nature, but the idea that politicians do bank on the fact that Americans have a short memory when it becomes political?</s>Mr. MEYER: Yes, everybody thinks on short memory, believe me. But the problem is that Democrats are not so far capitalizing on these scandals. I mean, to some extent they are involved in it, implicated and stained by the scandal, but they are also the gang that can't shoot straight. They are so inept...</s>Ms. TARA SETMAYER (Republican Strategist): But it could also be that the American people don't care.</s>Mr. MEYER: They are so incompetent, they can't even make parliamentary maneuver, after being in power for so many years in Congress, why don't they know the parliamentary tricks so that they can stop the Congress and stop the Alito situation from being confirmed. But they can't get their act together because they disagree with each other. So, the elections are up in the air again, once again.</s>ED GORDON, host: Right.</s>Mr. GEORGE CURRY (Editor-in-Chief, National Newspaper Publishers Association News Service): Well they can't stop Alito because they didn't have votes. I mean, let's start there. And you basically have both parties in opposition. You've got Democrats who said I'm accustomed to governing and I don't know how to be the opposition party. You have Republicans saying we're used to throwing flames at the opposition party...</s>ED GORDON, host: Yeah.</s>Mr. GEORGE CURRY (Editor-in-Chief, National Newspaper Publishers Association News Service): ...we don't know how to govern.</s>ED GORDON, host: Yes.</s>Mr. MEYER: Incompetent.</s>ED GORDON, host: Well, the beat goes on.</s>Mr. MEYER: Yes, sir.</s>ED GORDON, host: George, Michael, Tara, thank you so much, greatly appreciate it. We were going to get to a Kobe Bryant story that we'll move over to tomorrow. Kobe has returned as a pitchman. We'll talk about that on tomorrow's ROUNDTABLE.</s>ED GORDON, host: Next up on NEWS AND NOTES an historic town settled by free blacks is trying to protect its heritage from big developers and a one-woman dynamo puts it all on the page. That's coming up.</s>ED GORDON, host: You're listening to NEWS AND NOTES from NPR News.</s>ED GORDON, host: I'm Ed Gordon. Next time on NEWS AND NOTES: finding your family tree. A new documentary researches the genealogy of prominent African Americans and retraces black ancestors. I'll be joined by the host and producer of the series, Harvard Professor Henry Louis Gates. That's next time on NEWS AND NOTES from NPR News.