Spy Scandal with Germany; Interview with Mike Rogers
BLITZER: We're live here in Jerusalem. We'll have much more on the fighting between Israel and Hamas in a few moments. But first, the strained relationship between the United States and one of its closes allies. We're talking about Germany which actually expelled the top U.S. intelligence officer at the U.S. embassy in Berlin over allegations of spying against Germany. Our White House correspondent Michelle Kosinski is joining us now. She has more on this growing controversy. Michelle, what are you hearing?</s>MICHELLE KOSINSKI, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Wolf. Both sides now trying to talk it out in private. You know, it only seems like yesterday that President Obama hosted the German chancellor right here in the Rose Garden. I mean, he talked about the importance of this relationship even in a personal level, saying it pained him that the prior spying disclosure strained that. Well, now there's this. Just setting things back again.</s>KOSINSKI (voice-over): A public embarrassment. The CIA station chief in Berlin of all places capital of one of our closest, most important European allies, kicked out of the country when Germans uncovered what were allegedly some U.S. covert ops. The Germans talking openly about the hurt, the betrayal of it all. Today, the German foreign minister said expelling the CIA chief based at the U.S. embassy, was the right decision. A necessary step, a fitting reaction to the break of trust. Taking action was unavoidable, he said. The U.S. has been far more quiet on the topic. No, the CIA isn't tweeting about it, but today the White House offered this.</s>JOSH EARNEST, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Allies with sophisticated intelligence agencies like the United States and Germany understand with some degree of detail exactly what those intelligence relationships and activities entail.</s>KOSINSKI: The Germans say there is good contact still between top levels of both countries. The White House did confirm the conversations are going on right now in private. And that the U.S. respects Germany's choices on whom to allow in their country even adding some glowing praise for German Chancellor Angela Merkel, an effective partner and effective leader who puts the best interests of her country first.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The president of the United States and the chancellor of the Federal Republic of Germany.</s>KOSINSKI: Just back in May, Obama and Merkel presented a united front even on tackling this touchy, touchy spying issue. Remember a year ago, it came out that the NSA had spied on Merkel's phone conversations. Obama conciliatory.</s>BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: What I've also done is taken the unprecedented step of ordering our intelligence communities to take the privacy interests of non-U.S. persons into account in everything that they do.</s>KOSINSKI: Pledging, he said to Merkel, to also close the gaps in the ways German and U.S. intelligence operate and ensure clarity. Merkel not seeming fully convinced at the time saying there's still divisions that need work. Yesterday, calling apparent continued spying a waste of energy.</s>KOSINSKI: So now this alleged spying does not involve phone tapping but does include some German citizens, one reportedly worked for the Foreign Intelligence Services accused of slipping documents in the Edward Snowden investigation to the CIA. The other allegedly worked for the German Defense Ministry. So far, though, the White House says that Obama and Merkel have not talked about this -- Wolf.</s>BLITZER: Michelle Kosinski, thanks very much. So Michelle is over at the White House. Let's talk about this with Republican Congressman Mike Rogers of Michigan. He's the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee. Mr. Chairman, thanks very much for joining us. You know, I've done some research. There may have been a case where a NATO ally expelled a CIA station chief. I don't remember a time when they publicly made that kind of announcement. How big of a deal is this?</s>REP. MIKE ROGERS, R-MI, INTELLIGENCE CHAIRMAN: Well, it's -- it's a huge deal. And for those of us who value the German-American relationship, I'm very, very, very concerned. But they sure seem to be spending a lot of time, Wolf, worrying about what the American intelligence services are doing and their parliament is not necessarily worrying about what the German intelligence services are doing. And so again, I think this is -- these are important countries with important economies both the U.S. and Germany and the rest of the G-7 plus 1, if you will, economies, and it just doesn't seem like a very adult reaction to expel the CIA chief from Germany. And it's concerning and it's a political temper tantrum like I've never seen before that I think is not productive, it is jeopardizing both intelligence cooperation and relationships with beyond the intelligence relationship between America and Germany.</s>BLITZER: Are you suggesting, Mr. Chairman, as I think you are, that the U.S. had no choice but to engage in this kind of clandestine effort because the Germans themselves, their intelligence services were not really doing the necessary job?</s>ROGERS: Well, a couple of things. One, there -- I would never confirm or deny any intelligence operation by the United States government ever. And that's something we would never ever do. But I will tell you that I am very confident, as the chairman of the Intelligence Committee, that the German intelligence services have at least peeked over the shoulder of American policymakers in their interests to collect intelligence for the benefits of Germany. And we get it. This is an adult relationship. The problem here is that they have Iranian spies there. They have Russian spies there. They have the whole host and panoply of countries who are spying in Germany. I don't see them interested in throwing their chiefs out. And again, what's so concerning about this is there are times that the American intelligence services have provided information that have saved German lives because they had this convoluted rule system about what they can and can't do at the local level in Germany when it comes to intelligence that we know has disrupted terrorist plots in Germany. It's frustrating to those of us who believe in a broader understanding and understanding that sometimes even our allies have relationships with our adversaries that are of concern. And some notion that they're going to jeopardize all of those relationships over this alleged incident that they may or may not have all their facts right is very, very concerning to me. It seems far more political. It seems far more temper tantrum like than it does an adult conversation about very important countries engaged in very important economic and military and I think stabilization efforts around the world.</s>BLITZER: The White House officials are suggesting the president of the United States was not actually informed of this kind of intelligence operation inside Germany. If in fact it's true. Shouldn't the president who is commander in chief know that the U.S. would be doing this if, in fact, it was?</s>ROGERS: Well, again, I am not going to confirm or deny any intelligence operation that the U.S. Intelligence Services do. Again, I'm going to tell you that it's really interesting to me -- I mean, I'd be glad to meet with the German parliamentarian that has the ability to understand current operations by their intelligence services that has the ability to oversee them, budget them and understand both future and proposed intelligence operations. The problem is, Wolf, it doesn't exist. I'm going to encourage the Germans to understand fully what the German intelligence services are doing today. And that means to U.S. personnel, it means to personnel around the world, and by the way, I don't think that's a problem. I understand it. And so again, that's why I think this is so important. Do you want to have an adult relationship as we go forward on a very complicated world that's very dangerous and you're going to jeopardize the fact that U.S. intelligence services have provided information that have saved German lives, period, unequivocal, that's exactly what's happened. And I worry that they're taking this as a political knee-jerk reaction and not knowing all the set of information that they need to understand, they being the parliament of Germany, even their executive branch, if you will, and being very candid with the German people. I think --</s>BLITZER: You don't think the chancellor -- you don't think the chancellor of Germany, Angela Merkel, is up to speed on what's going on?</s>ROGERS: Well, I can't say. I certainly see her reaction to throw out the CIA chief in Germany tells me that either she doesn't or she does and has made a serious mistake here. This is something that we would expect from the Russians. We would expect from the Iranians. We would expect from the North Koreans. We don't expect from our allies, the Germans where they know of this really important intelligence relationship. And by the way, again, as the chairman of the Intelligence Committee, I feel very confident in telling you and your viewers, listen, the German Intelligence Services, they're engaged in espionage including against the U.S. persons. And so I'm a little surprised by this whole reaction. I think it's more political than substantive. And I would hope, I would hope that they would not jeopardize this very important relationship in the world between the U.S. and the German people on something that doesn't seem quite right to me. I mean if they have the facts and maybe they don't and if they don't, Wolf, I'm saying they'd better get the facts.</s>BLITZER: All right.</s>ROGERS: And they better get them pretty soon.</s>BLITZER: Very strong words from the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee.</s>ROGERS: Yes.</s>BLITZER: Mike Rogers, thanks, Mr. Chairman, very much for joining us.</s>ROGERS: Thanks, Wolf.</s>BLITZER: We'll stay on top of this story. And coming up live from here in Jerusalem more than 100 Hamas rockets shot from the sky by Israel's so-called Iron Dome Missile Defense System. We'll take a closer look at how it works.