Feisty Exchange Between Barr, Rep. Matt Cartwright over Obamacare; Mnuchin on Trump's Tax Returns: "Our Intent is to Follow the Law"
DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: And that is why we saw a rare pullback by the president last week after he had taken this discussion about the legal action that his administration is doing after this internal debate. And taking it a step further by putting it into the legislative political realm once again. He was forced to pull it back after they reminded him they couldn't do it, as I said before, with complete control of Congress. How are they going to do it now with Democrats in control? Instead, the president is now saying it will be a 2020 campaign argument, which it was going to be all along. But the reality of the president, as we have seen so many times, just kind of going with what he feels is the right thing to do and the right thing to say based on the last person he talked to, likely, kind of smacked into a force field of, you've got to be kidding me, among fellow Republicans in the Congress.</s>KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Yes. Not necessarily sounding like a man who was ready and willing to defend what they were doing on Obamacare in court right now. Dana, great to see you. Thank you so much.</s>BASH: You, too.</s>BOLDUAN: Elie, Jennifer, thank you guys. See you in a bit. Still ahead, Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin is also facing lawmakers today. Different topic, talking about the President Trump's tax returns. What does he say about it? Would he have the final say to release them? Much more on this after a quick break.</s>BOLDUAN: Attorney General Bill Barr isn't the only Trump cabinet member facing lawmakers today. Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin testifying before two House committees and he's quickly facing questions about the president and his tax returns after a House committee, you'll remember, has said it has the authority to see the tax returns and the president's chief of staff just as quickly says that's is never going to happen. CNN's Cristina Alesci is following all of this for us. Cristina, what did Mnuchin have to say about it.</s>CRISTINA ALESCI, CNN BUSINESS & POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: Not much. He tried to kick off the hearing talking about his budget request for Treasury, but very quickly, the chairman of this subcommittee turned the issue to the president's tax returns, and asked Mnuchin whether or not he was the right guy to even decide whether the IRS should hand over tax returns and fulfill the Democrats' request for those documents. He also asked Mnuchin whether Mnuchin had spoken to anyone at the White House about this issue. Listen.</s>REP. MIKE QUIGLEY (D-IL): Last week, we were well aware that the chairman of the Ways and Means, under 6103 of the tax code, requested the president's tax returns and we can get into the issue of what that answer should be. But, at first, I think it's more important we talk about who should make that decision and with respect whether or not you, Mr. Secretary, should be involved in that decision.</s>STEVE MNUCHIN, TREASURY SECRETARY: I want to acknowledge that we did receive the request. And as I have said in the past, when we received the request, it would be reviewed by our legal department, and it is our intent to follow the law. And that is in the process of being reviewed. Now, in regards --</s>QUIGLEY: Let me just interject. I apologize. What part are they reviewing? Whether or not, or whether your office should be the one that makes the ultimate decision? Are they reviewing whether or not you should make that decision as well, sir?</s>MNUCHIN: It will be premature for me to comment specifically what they are reviewing on or what they're not reviewing on. But I would highlight, OK, I think as you know, the law calls for a request to me. As you have said, there's a tradition of delegating certain responsibilities. I would just comment that it is my responsibility to supervise the commissioner. But, again, I think it would be premature at this point to make any specific comments, other than as I have been consistent before in saying, it is being reviewed by the legal departments. And we look forward to responding to the letter.</s>QUIGLEY: Have you spoken to the White House chief of staff or the president about this decision?</s>MNUCHIN: I have not spoken to the White House chief of staff or the president about this decision.</s>QUIGLEY: Has anyone from the White House talked to you about this decision?</s>MNUCHIN: To me, personally, or to other people within my department?</s>QUIGLEY: You personally, first, and to other people, second.</s>MNUCHIN: I have not had any conversations with anybody in the White House about this issue.</s>QUIGLEY: Any communication?</s>MNUCHIN: I, personally, have not had any communication with anybody in the White House. Although, I want to be specific, that relates to me and not everybody at Treasury.</s>QUIGLEY: OK. So to your knowledge, has anybody in the administration communicated with anybody in your office about this decision?</s>MNUCHIN: Our legal department has had conversations prior to receiving the letter with the White House general counsel.</s>QUIGLEY: And did they brief you as to the contents of that communication?</s>MNUCHIN: They have not briefed me to the contents of that communication. I believe that was purely informational.</s>QUIGLEY: You believe what was purely informational?</s>MNUCHIN: I believe the communication between our legal department and the White House general counsel was informational, that we obviously had read in the press that we were expecting this.</s>QUIGLEY: So they communicated just to say expect this, or did they talk about their views in any way, shape, or form as to how you should --</s>MNUCHIN: Again, Mr. Chairman, I want to be clear. I personally wasn't involved in those conversations. Again, I want to be very clear and not be misleading. I acknowledge there were conversations. I am not briefed on the full extent of those conversations. And I would also just comment, those have been prior to us receiving the notice.</s>QUIGLEY: Because they saw the handwriting on the wall.</s>MNUCHIN: I think, as you know, it was widely advertised in the press beforehand --</s>QUIGLEY: Sure.</s>MNUCHIN: -- so this wasn't exactly a state secret that we thought we would be getting it.</s>ALESCI: So, Kate, Mnuchin is in a very difficult position because he's been a loyal cabinet member for so long. And he's managed to keep a very good relationship with the president. Now, Democrats are saying they're pursuing a legal route to getting the president's tax returns, and Mnuchin is saying he'll follow the law. He's in a very difficult position. In fact, the chairman of the subcommittee pressed Mnuchin on whether or not there's an issue of basic transparency and whether the president, in his view, should just go ahead and release his tax returns. In response, Mnuchin said that is a personal decision for the president -- Kate?</s>BOLDUAN: Whether he likes it or not, Steve Mnuchin is now smack dab in the middle of this fight. Which is going to be a fight. Cristina, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Let me bring back in Elie Honig, Jennifer Rodgers and Dana Bash on this. Elie, how do you read Mnuchin's response?</s>ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: He's in a tough spot. Interesting that he actually conceded there's been coordination, communication between his office and the White House on some level. But Mnuchin just said, we're going to follow the law. I would have liked to follow that up with, well, the law says, quote, "shall furnish." "The IRS shall furnish this information to the House Ways and Means Committee upon request." So how do you read "shall furnish" other than "shall furnish?" It will be interesting to see if they're able to get around that. But that's a pretty straightforward piece of law. And I don't know how Mnuchin can come to any other conclusion other than "we shall furnish."</s>BOLDUAN: Dana, you have what you hear from Mnuchin, we will follow the law. You have what you heard from Mick Mulvaney, the president's acting chief of staff, that Democrats will never see these tax returns. How is the White House going to navigate this? Those two things don't seem to be the same.</s>BASH: They don't. First of all, that was a really fascinating exchange.</s>BASH: Because it's almost like you were on the journey with him trying to avoid a minefield, a mine every time he stepped on what was clearly a minefield.</s>BOLDUAN: I had frogger in my head. You had minefield.</s>BASH: Exactly. I mean, all of the above. Because he clearly has seen what happens when you don't tell the truth to Congress, and he was trying to be so exact that he was tripping over himself to say that the people in his office have had the conversation. But again, it was noteworthy not since, that he knows of, not since the actual letter from the House Ways and Means chairman was sent last week. It was just in anticipation of that. But, look, Elie is right, the law is clear in terms of what Congress can do in terms of it's a request to the IRS, not to the president, to the IRS commissioner, asking for these tax returns. But the question is, what is the opposing argument that the president's legal team is going to make when there's going to be an inevitable court challenge, which could, likely will -- Elie and Jennifer can correct me if I'm wrong, they're the lawyers here -- go up to the Supreme Court and create a brand-new fascinating precedent.</s>BOLDUAN: Yes. That law, a 1924 law, is what is being cited by the chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee. It's that one word, two words if you will, "shall furnish," that everyone will be looking at for a long time to come. Let's see what happens next. But Steve Mnuchin now seems to be the man, whether he likes it or not, in between Congress and Donald Trump's tax returns. Then there's some court mixed in there. Great to see you. Thank you so much, guys.</s>BASH: Thank you. All right, coming up for us, the purge at the Homeland Security Department. It now has some Republicans sounding the alarm. Why they say the president needs to think twice about his continuing shakeup at the Department of Homeland Security. That's next.