Obama Spokesman: Trump Wiretapping Claim "Simply False"; Lindsey Graham Worried by Trump Wiretapping Allegations
PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: You're in the CNN NEWSROOM on this Saturday, I'm Pamela Brown in Washington, great to have you with us. So, we begin with the breaking news, President Trump firing off unsubstantiated allegations of wire-tapping. Allegations that stun even members of his own administration. President Trump tweeting, "Terrible, just found out that Obama had my wires tapped in Trump Tower just before the victory. Nothing found. This is McCarthyism." He went on to clarify that his personal phone was tapped. A spokesman for former president flatly denies those claims saying this. "A cardinal rule of the Obama administration was that no White House official ever interfered with any independent investigation led by the Department of Justice. As part of that practice, neither President Obama nor any White House official ever ordered surveillance on any U.S. citizens. Any suggestion otherwise is simply false." White House correspondent Athena Jones joins me live near Mar-A-Lago. Also with us, CNN crime and justice producer Shimon Prokupecz. Athena, I want to go to you first. What kinds of response are you getting from the White House about these major allegations? Have they said anything?</s>ATHENA JONES, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: All right, Pamela. Well, look, we've been asking since early this morning. White House officials here in Florida and also in Washington. We've been asking for them to provide any evidence to back up the President's unsubstantiated allegations. We have not received any evidence from them. But my colleague, a senior White House correspondent Jeff Zeleny did speak with a senior administration official in Washington who said that White House colleagues learned of the President's tweet storm only after he sent them, this was early this morning. And it's not uncommon for the President to get up and be tweeting early in the morning. Today he started around 6:30 a.m. This official pointed to a story on the conservative website, Breitbart News that has been circulating in the west wing. That story followed up on comments from radio talk show host Mark Levin who claimed that President Obama worked to undermine Trump's presidential campaign and his administration, including through various investigations on Russia and these possible ties between Russians and Trump associates. This official said that Breitbart News story infuriated the President. And just a couple of hours ago, the President's social media Director Dan Scavino, also a top advisor tweeted out a link to that very same Breitbart News story. So, that lends credence to the idea that it was that story that the President was basing this angry tweets on. But he clearly didn't run them by his communications' staff and they were caught flatfooted. And we haven't heard any official comment from them -- Pamela.</s>BROWN: And Shimon, you've been speaking with a former senior U.S. official with direct knowledge of the investigation. What is the reaction been from the Obama team on these wiretapping claims?</s>SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE PRODUCER: Well, bigger than just the Obama team, Pamela. This is a former official who has direct knowledge of the FBI and the Department of Justice investigation. And there's just been flat denial. And I'll read you something this person told me. Which is -- "This didn't happen. It is made up, false. Wrong." There was no equivocation. It just isn't like oh, well maybe it happened here or maybe it happened there. Or we may have been looking at something else. I mean, this person just flatly denied that anyone at the Department of Justice had done this. Had gone before a judge, to try and seek some sort of authorization to wiretap Donald Trump's phones.</s>BROWN: Yes. Some strong language there from that official that you spoke with basically saying that this claim is false. Athena, the top Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, Adam Schiff called the allegations outlandish and baseless, what about Republican lawmakers? What are they saying?</s>JONES: We are seeing some responses from Republicans. For instance, South Carolina Senator Lindsey Graham had a town hall this morning in South Carolina where he talked about this. Listen.</s>SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: I don't know if it's true or not. But if it is true, illegally -- it would be the biggest political scandal since Watergate. So -- it's my job, as United States senator to get to the bottom of this.</s>JONES: And that sentiment about it being his job to get to the bottom of this as a United States senator, that sentiment is being echoed by other Republican colleagues, including Senator Ben Sasse of Nebraska who put out a statement a little while ago saying that the public needs more information about the President's allegations. He says that if there was wiretapping, it was either with or without a warrant from a special court known as a FISA court. If it was without that warrant then the President needs to explain what kind of wire-tap this was and how he knows about it. If it was with the legal court order, he says the President should ask that the application for surveillance be made public. To everyone, or at the very least to the U.S. Senate. He went on to say, we're in the midst of a civilization-warping crisis of trust and the President's allegations today demand the thorough and dispassionate attention of serious patriots. And it's worth restating here, Pamela, just what Shimon was saying, and that is that former senior officials are saying that the idea that then-candidate Trump's phones were wire-tapped is just wrong. One other official said it was just nonsense -- Pamela.</s>BROWN: And Shimon, you know, for the FBI to be able to wiretap someone's phone. A U.S. citizen, it would have to go to the FISA court and prove why that needs to happen. A President can't just order someone's phone to be wiretapped which is what Donald Trump seemed to be saying in his tweet. That President Obama ordered this. Walk us through the process.</s>PROKUPECZ: Well, that's exactly right. This isn't something that would come even from the White House or a sitting president. Obama in this case. So basically what would have to happen is the FBI would have to go to the Department of Justice and then the Department of Justice would then have to go before a secret court known as, you know, where they do this, as the FISA court and ask for permission, for authorization to tap Donald Trump's phone. You know, there's some argument over how easy is that. I think in this case and certainly from the source, this official former official with direct knowledge of this investigation, said it would have been really tough for them to get this kind of permission. To wiretap Donald Trump's phones. The other thing is if there was a criminal investigation, which was being handled by the FBI and the Department of Justice, they would have had to have shown that there was some sort of criminality to a judge or perhaps some sort of crime was being committed, there were allegations made. They would have to go before a federal judge and try and get a warrant. Also, you know, various steps would need to be met before a judge would grant that this kind of authorization. It's a pretty tough burden to meet. This happens every day in federal courts, but I think given who Donald Trump was at the time, and who he is now, you know, this official stressed it would have been really tough for us to get this kind of authorization.</s>BROWN: And again, he stressed that it's false, that is simply not true. Shimon Prokupecz, Athena Jones, thank you very much. And I want to bring in my panel now, Bob Baer, CNN's intelligence and security analyst and a former CIA operative. Betsy Woodruff, politics reporter for the "Daily Beast." And Julian Zelizer, Princeton University historian and CNN contributor. Bob, we're hearing from former CIA analyst Ned Price who quit the agency a few weeks ago. He also donated $5,000 to the Democratic Party and Hillary Clinton's campaign last year. He tells CNN that this is either a calculated attempt to distract from this administration's multi-pronged and yet unexplained Russian ties, or a fundamental misunderstanding of how intelligence and law enforcement authorities operate, either way. This outburst should frighten all Americans. So, that's what he says. Bob, do you agree, disagree, is this a calculated move in your view or misunderstanding or neither of those? What's your take?</s>ROBERT BAER, CNN INTELLIGENCE AND SECURITY ANALYST: Oh, Pamela. I don't know how much he calculates. But it's ludicrous to think that Obama went to the FBI, got a FISA warrant, FISA court agreed to tap Donald Trump's phone. First of all, there's no probable cause to ask for it. The FBI would go into full revolt. This would have been leaked. There would be a record of it. Which the President could get right now. So it's ludicrous, and I think he's under a lot of pressure, under this Russian, this Russian thing which we still don't know what it is. And he's striking out against Obama. To say his phones were tapped, you know, I would bet the ranch on it, they weren't. It's impossible. Getting a FISA warrant as I said is extremely difficult on a presidential candidate -- no way. So, I think he's lashing out. As he has been for so long.</s>BROWN: And Betsy, he's not only saying that his phone was tapped, but also that the former president was responsible for it. I mean if this was true this would be a mega scandal. An affair with Watergate, I mean, and we still haven't heard from the White House. It's been nearly 12 hours. What do you think about that? What should be said and what's your expectation?</s>BETSY WOODRUFF, POLITICS REPORTER, "THE DAILY BEAST": Right. Well, to use a hallowed journalism cliche, these are what we call bombshell allegations in the big "if true" category. And the fact that the White House isn't supporting the President in the comment that he made on twitter this morning thus far. Besides the few scattered tweets from the White House officials is telling, of course. And it suggests that there may not be a "there" there. I think the larger issue that this points to is that the President doesn't seem to have a very sophisticated understanding of the way the intelligence community works. Of course, President Obama could not have asked a FISA court to authorize wiretapping, because that's not how it works. That's not how you get a FISA authorization.</s>BROWN: And the FBI can't do that, either.</s>WOODRUFF: Exactly. Exactly. There's just no reason to think that this is specifically what happened. And this isn't the only example of Trump and his team not seeming to know some of the stuff that most folks who work in this world know about intelligence-gathering. For instance there's a lot of panic about the facts that leaked that Mike Flynn spoke with the Russian ambassador. But in the intelligence community, it's common knowledge that the Russian ambassador was being wiretapped. That many ambassadors for country the U.S. has fraught relationships with, those guys are getting wiretapped. If you're an intelligence official and you call them, someone is probably listening to your call. The fact that Trump, his advisers, his own former national security adviser didn't seem to understand that, just points I think to what we've been talking about, the fact that the understanding of these issues is fairly thin.</s>BROWN: All of this comes on the heels of President Trump's widely praised speech before Congress on Tuesday. Let's watch that.</s>PRES. DONALD TRUMP (R), UNITED STATES: The time for small thinking is over. The time for trivial fights is behind us. We just need the courage to share the dreams that fill our hearts. The bravery to express the hopes that share our souls.</s>BROWN: So Julian, does his predawn twitter storm wipe out that positive balance? I mean how do these unsubstantiated wiretapping allegations affect the general public's perception of their new president?</s>JULIAN ZELIZER, HISTORIAN AND PROFESSOR, PRINCETON UNIVERSITY: I think it was probably too much to make an argument that that address represented some pivot to a new Donald Trump. President Trump is the same person he's always been and I think the tweets this morning reflect much more of the kind of politician he has become. These are unsubstantiated claims. We're not hearing that there's a lot of evidence behind what he's now accused the former president of doing and the irony is he ends the tweet saying this is McCarthyism. It is, but it's what he's done, rather than what's being done to him. I think this is about distracting people from the discussions of investigation into the Russia connections, which have been front and center all week. And suddenly, the conversation is turning to Obama. So this is who President Trump is. And I think that speech really didn't reflect the kind of shift people are talking about.</s>BROWN: So, bob, I want to go back to you, because you were a CIA agent. How would anyone prove wiretapping had taken place? I mean, this is the whole point of wiretapping to keep surveillance covert, under the radar?</s>BAER: You can't prove it. I mean, if the implication is that the President went out and sort of a black bag operation with private operatives, you know, it would it involve a break-in? Would it involve listening to a cell phone? He wasn't specific. How does he know this? And I think he's been citing Breitbart. And I read that Breitbart report and there's some interesting things in it. There's nothing about tapping President's phone. The Breitbart phone, you know, if the FBI did ask for a FISA warrant on a campaign, you know, a guy working for Trump, that's something different. Why did they do it, what was the probable cause. But you know, getting into the bottom of this, he's making accusations he cannot prove.</s>BROWN: Right. And just on that note, sorry to cut you off there. But I mean, he sent this tweet early this morning. Said he just learned presumably he's not getting an intelligence briefing early on a Saturday morning. So it does appear, Betsy that this information came from this Breitbart report or a right-wing radio talk show host. It appears once again he's relying on the right-wing media reports to make these allegations. The last time I recall it was about Sweden in a FOX News report he saw about attacks in Sweden. Do you think this is reckless?</s>WOODRUFF: That is really interesting things about the Trump presidency is that perhaps more than any previous president, we know exactly what his media diet is like. He reads a lot of Breitbart. He watches "FOX AND FRIENDS." He pays attention to the things that are said on conservative talk radio. And the reality is that Breitbart has a spotty record when it comes to reporting things that are consistently, factually accurate. They draw lots of criticism for getting stories wrong in the past and in the case when Steve Bannon was running the site, for refusing to apologize for stories that were incorrect. They ran a story about a women named Loretta Lynch. And they said that she was the Loretta Lynch who've been named to run the Justice Department but it was just completely wrong. The fact that the President is relying so overwhelmingly on this site for his news about pivotal National Security issues, pivotal intelligence issues is unprecedented. It's not the way most presidents get their information about Intel and I think the larger root issue here is that the President himself has long telegraphed an extremely low level of confidence in the American intelligence community. He's extremely skeptical. We know he's often been prone to believing conspiracy theories. Believing that there are nefarious forces at work that we don't have good information on and of course that's a level of suspicion, distrust that's very much of a piece that the way Breitbart covers these issues. So, it makes sense that he would rely on them. That said it's something that I imagine would give many observers pause.</s>BROWN: All right. Stick around. We have a lot more to discuss, we'll be back in just a few. And coming up, Attorney General Jeff Sessions set to meet with the President next hour after days of heat about his contact with the Russian ambassador. How the Trump administration is fighting to untangle itself from the controversy. Up next.