Shouting Match Erupts in Senate Over GOP Tax Bill
SEN. ORRIN HATCH, (R-UT), CHAIRMAN, SENATE FINANCE COMMITTEE: I resent anybody saying I'm just doing this for the rich. Give me a break. I think you guys overplay that all the type and it gets old. Frankly you ought to quit it.</s>SEN. SHERROD BROWN, (D), OHIO: Mr. Chairman, the public believes it.</s>HATCH: I'm not through.</s>BROWN: OK.</s>HATCH: I'm get sick and tired of it. It's not true. It's a nice political play.</s>BROWN: Well, Mr. Chairman.</s>HATCH: It's not true.</s>BROWN: With all due respect, I get sick and tired of the richest people in the country getting richer and richer.</s>UNIDENTIFIED SENATOR: Regular order, Mr. Chairman.</s>BROWN: -- and the middle class --</s>BROWN: We do a tax cut --</s>UNIDENTIFIED SENATOR: Regular order.</s>BROWN: -- over and over again.</s>KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: So, with that, what's next for the Republican plan in the Senate? CNN's Suzanne Malveaux joining me from Capitol Hill. Hey, Suzanne. What's up?</s>SUZANNE MALVEAUX: Hey, Kate your and I both have known Senator Orrin Hatch over the years. That is not like him to get that emotional and upset at all. But there were fireworks. And there's a lot of emotion behind this and what we saw folks do yesterday is scramble to get out of town for the Thanksgiving holiday, but they're going to have a lot of people and constituents to answer to, try to explain what it is that they're doing with the tax reform bill. They've got a number of challenges on the Senate side and as you said it goes to the Senate side. This is a proposal here that permanently cuts the corporate tax rate for big businesses but allows it to expire for Households and individuals. That might be a tough sell. This repeals the Obamacare mandate, 13 million people over 10 years, who would no longer have health insurance. Then congressional analysts, bipartisan, nonpartisan analysts, show it is actually the poorest people after 10 years who will see the biggest increase in their taxes. And so this is something that they'll be working on. They're going to bring it back after Thanksgiving holiday for a vote. And the Democrats are certainly working on their part to derail it -- Kate?</s>BOLDUAN: That is -- if anything is evident, that is all evident. Suzanne, great to see you. Thank you so much. All right. Let's discuss this, where does this head, is it going to look any different after turkey day? Jack Kington is here, CNN political commentator, former Republican Congressman from Georgia and former senior adviser to the Trump campaign. Emily Tisch Sussman is here. She is campaign director for the Center for American Progress Action Fund. And Alice Stewart, a CNN political commentator former communications director for Ted Cruz's presidential campaign. Congressman, first to you. A big step forward for Republicans in the House, no doubt. Overnight, that moment between Brown and Hatch, you clearly don't -- I know who you agree with, don't agree with Brown, but as they head home for the holiday is that some effective messaging they're taking home?</s>JACK KINGSTON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATATOR: I don't know. Probably good politics for both of them. Those of us who have served with Sherrod and know and love Sherrod, he's a loud guy, brash guy, can be obnoxious. People who know Hatch know he's reserved. Both of them just wanted to get it off their chest after a long, exhaustive process. In my opinion someone who has spent his life in sales this tax plan is as easy to sell ice or cold drinks on a high July day at NASCAR. This is a great tax plan. It cuts middle class tax cuts -- taxes for average families by anywhere from a $1000 to $4,000. It cuts the corporate tax rate and small business tax rate in order for us to create more jobs and expand the economy. This is going to be -- this is an easy sell. And if any Republican can't go back home and sell this, they shouldn't be in office. I think it's going to be a lot easier for Republicans to sell it than Democrats for Democrats to defend a no vote.</s>BOLDUAN: Really? Emily, do you think that's the case? Do you think this is easier for Republicans to sell than Democrats when heading home?</s>EMILY TISCH SUSSMAN, CAMPAIGN DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR AMERICAN PROGRESS ACTION FUND: That is not the case. Republicans are struggling against the perception even though they are fully in control of the federal government, they can't govern. They can't get anything passed. They're desperate to try to pass anything. The thing that's going to be unfortunate for them is that what is in this proposal is deeply unpopular. Just the House vote they had yesterday, was a number of members of Congress who are actually going to raise taxes on their constituents through the state and local deductions. We know that bill moving through the Senate as well as the House as your reporter just mentioned it is going to increase taxes for those people who are making under $75,000 over the next -- for the next 10 years. That's really unpopular and not even close to what they are selling on it. If you look at the bulk of what's in the bill it is cuts for the top and corporations. That is very unpopular. And quite frankly not what people who voted for Trump thought they were voting for.</s>BOLDUAN: And if this was such an easy sell, I'm confused why so many Republicans who are at least right now voicing a lot of concern. Alice, this is a long way from over in the Senate. Republicans have concerns in it, runs the gamut over keeping the Obamacare repeal in the bill, some over the fact that individual tax cuts expire, but corporate tax cuts do not, some over what this bill would do to the debt. And Bob Corker is one of those and he tweeted this - just yesterday, we were - "We're $20 trillion in debt, and it's party like there's no tomorrow time in Washington." He was specifically -- actually linking to a story about the budget and what Republicans and Democrats are talking about over the budget. But does that just in and of itself spell trouble for the tax bill?</s>ALICE STEWART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: As you say, Kate, it's far from over. And look, the House bill passed with flying colors without a doubt but the Senate, there's going to be a lot more conversations like we just saw and it's not easy. But look, the bottom line is, Republicans here in Washington, want two main things and they want to follow through on the promises that they've made, and the president has made. Reducing the corporate tax rate from 35 to 20 percent and also making lower taxes for middle-income Americans, that is the cornerstone of both of these tax proposals.</s>BOLDUAN: But to do both of that, it's hard to stay within the limits of what they're allowed to do on --</s>STEWART: Right.</s>BOLDUAN: -- in the reconciliation rules. And why you have -- Jack, that's why you have the individual tax cuts expiring, that's not a good sell when you head home. Individual tax cuts you can expire. Republicans say when asked about that on the Hill, they say, that's 10 years out. There's plenty of time to fix that. That's the message?</s>KINGSTON: You know what, it's because of some arcane rule they call the bird rule in the Senate which is ironic because --</s>BOLDUAN: Arcane or not it exists. Arcane or not, it exists.</s>KINGSTON: But let me say this.</s>BOLDUAN: Answer the question, though.</s>BOLDUAN: That's how you're going to sell it? Enough time to fix the problem?</s>KINGSTON: I'm going to let you hold on to your money for 10 years and then we're going to extend it. Hold on to more of your money than my Democrat opponent wants to and if you want to spend more money --</s>BOLDUAN: But it's just, trust me? Trust me when members of Congress' approval rating is in the dirt?</s>KINGSTON: Here's what I say. The bird is in the hand if you don't want it because it's not perfect send your money to Washington, let those bureaucrats spend your hard-earned money if that's what turns you on. I trust you, I think you can do a better job spending your money. And by the way, when you spend your own money, both Kennedy and Reagan found out that the economy grows, more jobs, more prosperity and your paycheck gets bigger.</s>BOLDUAN: I still just wonder why do corporate rates stay permanent when individual rates don't. That is just a tough thing to sell. Emily, Republicans, I've been asking a lot of Republicans this question which is, when do they stop caring about the debt and deficit. When did Democrats start caring about the debt and deficit when I hear them talking about it these days.</s>SUSSMAN: It's always been on the table as one of the concerns, but I think the reason it comes up so much when talking to Republicans is the stark contrast between the last administration. And when suddenly, they want to pass these big tax cuts, particularly permanent large corporate tax cuts, and they can't pay for it, and put in things like repealing Obamacare which does bring in revenue, and can't pay for any of the tax cuts, right. So I think it's such an incredibly stark contrast to where Republicans have been over the past couple years they didn't think we could afford anything, programs that were supporting the middle class and people but when we want to give tax cuts to the top debt and deficit is never discussed. Part of the reason it will be harder to pass through the Senate is because there are a couple Senators that seem to recall another day when they actually cared about this kind of thing.</s>BOLDUAN: Well, it's going to be very, very difficult for Republicans to pass this.</s>STEWART: I just can't wait to see what a good Thanksgiving dinner does to all the comradery in Washington.</s>KINGSTON: We're going to get it done.</s>BOLDUAN: It's going to be so much easier in December you're not coming up against any deadlines to get stuff done in December on Capitol Hill. None at all. Or actually a ton of them. Great to see you guys. Let's see what happens next.</s>BOLDUAN: Any moment now, we're going to be going to Alabama. These are live pictures from Montgomery, Alabama. Roy Moore's wife, Kayla Moore, she will be speaking. These women coming together to defend Roy Moore in the face of the allegations against him as, of course, the clock ticks down on that special election in Alabama. We will bring you these moments live. We'll be back.