Elian Gonzalez's Grandmothers Travel to Miami to Meet With Their Grandson
BOBBIE BATTISTA, HOST: In just about an hour from now, Elian Gonzalez is scheduled to meet with his grandmothers. It is a meeting held under the shadow of suspicion, fear and mistrust.</s>SPENCER EIG, ATTORNEY FOR GONZALEZ FAMILY: One fear that the family has in this today is that these grandmother's, who still have family back in Cuba, are being manipulated by the long arm of Fidel Castro.</s>RAQUEL ROGRIGUEZ, ELIAN'S MATERNAL GRANDMOTHER (through translator): We are the ones that brought him up. They have only had him for two months. And with that, they would have him for five and a half years. I think we're the best to know him.</s>SISTER JEANNE O'LAUGHLIN, BARRY UNIVERSITY: I hope that somehow, he will experience the fact that many people love him, and these two women, grandmothers, do love him, and the family that he's with, that he has a loving environment so that he can he come to grips pretty soon with an ending that's going to hurt one of the other of them.</s>BATTISTA: Hello, everybody, and welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. A Catholic nun will host the much-publicized private reunion between Elian Gonzalez and his grandmothers. The women say they haven't seen the boy now in more than two months. CNN's Mark Potter is in Miami Beach, outside the home where the family will meet. Mark, what's the latest?</s>MARK POTTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Bobbie. That meeting was scheduled for 4:00 Eastern Time. We're told that there is now a slight delay of about a half hour, and the reason is that the grandmothers were late leaving Washington. The plan is for them to fly into a local airport. They will then be brought by helicopter to a nearby hospital, Mount Sinai, and then they'll be driven here to this residence on Miami Beach. This is the home of Sister Jeanne O'Laughlin. She's the president of Barry University. The house is actually owned by the university. As president, she stays here. She is a very important community activists here. She's a friend of Janet Reno, and she was asked by the INS to sort of mediate this reunion. The way it's scheduled to work is that the grandmothers will be brought in here first, then young Elian will be brought in by his relatives. They will go inside to a second floor room called a "Florida room." Everywhere else in the country calls it a recreation room. Here, we call it a Florida room. In there, there will be toys and snacks. And under an agreement worked out between the family lawyers and the INS, the grandmothers and the boy will have about a two-hour private meeting. The Miami relatives will be nearby, but they will not be present for that meeting. The plan, according to Sister O'Laughlin, is to make this calm, and quiet and secure for everyone involved, so that the boy and his grandmothers can spend some quality time together. Now the security here is very tight. There was a little bit of a problem here a short while ago, a very minor scuffle. I don't want to overstate it, but it did happen. There are a handful of demonstrators here in support of Elian staying in the United States. A man walked up and shouted out that he should be go back to Cuba. That caused a very brief fistfight. There have been a few of those in the last few weeks, as this -- as the passions heat up in this community. There was another very brief one today, but it was behind the camera platform, it was away from the house. The security here that has been put together by the Miami Beach Police is very tight. We're across the street. This is a gated community. The boy, and his family and the grandmothers will all be inside, away from the cameras. Again, the key word here is "privacy." They are trying to make this a private visit that is good for Elian -- Bobbie.</s>BATTISTA: And what happens, Mark, after this meeting is over, for both sides?</s>POTTER: They will go separate ways. The grandmothers know that they cannot take the boy with them. So the boy, Elian, 6-year-old Elian will go with his relatives back to the home in the Miami, Little Havana neighborhood, where he has been staying since his rescue two months ago. The grandmother's, meanwhile, will board a plane and head back to Washington, where it's presumed they will continue their lobbying efforts. And then everyone waits for the next developments, which are expected in Congress and in the courts.</s>BATTISTA: Now it seemed earlier in the week, Mark, that the grandmother's had only planned to stay until, say, Monday night or so. It's now Wednesday, and it seems like every day there are new things on the agenda for them. How long are they planning to stay in this country, do you know?</s>POTTER: I don't know the exact time. But what has happened is that there has been increased lobbying efforts. Both sides lobbying very hard, particularly in Congress. Efforts are under way in Congress to make Elian either a citizen or a U.S. resident, and both sides are pushing very hard their point. And so the grandmother's are staying here to do that. The other venue, by the way, is the courts -- federal court. The family lawyers have filed a lawsuit asking a federal judge to prohibit the INS from sending the boy back to Cuba and to grant him an asylum hearing. The Justice Department is expected very soon to send -- to file its response, and we can expect that they will oppose, of course, the family position, and maybe even argue, most likely, that the lawyers don't even have any business coming into court, because their position is that the lawyers for the boy and the family here really don't have any right to represent him. Only the father in Cuba is his true legal representative.</s>BATTISTA: All right, Mark Potter, in Miami Beach, thanks very much, and I'm sure we'll be getting back to you within the hour or so, if that the plane, as we hear now, is scheduled to land perhaps in the next half an hour. On the phone with us from Miami, before we take a break, is Eduardo Rasco, an attorney working for the Gonzalez family in maybe. And, Mr. Rasco, this sort of meeting on neutral territory is certainly not unusual in a custody case. Of course, this case is anything but usual. Do you have any problems with this meeting?</s>EDUARDO RASCO, GONZALEZ FAMILY ATTORNEY: No, we don't have any problem whatsoever. As has been well-documented, the family here in Miami wants to meet with the grandmothers. It's a shame that they may not have the -- Lazaro Gonzalez, the great uncle, may not actually have the opportunity to meet with the grandmother's, but certainly Elian will, and we have not opposed that from the very beginning, and so we are not in any way dismayed by this meeting.</s>BATTISTA: If you could, fill us in on the status of the federal challenge, of the legal aspect of the case at this point.</s>RASCO: Well as previously stated, we are awaiting a response from INS. We have filed a petition, and we have filed a motion for preliminary relief, and they will be responding to both of those legal documents, and we expect a response soon. The petition is the overall request, and the motion is for interim relief.</s>BATTISTA: All right, let me take a break at this time, and we'll return with Mr. Rasco and some other guests. And let me get a little bit of a barometer of the audience here. Moe, your thoughts on this?</s>MOE: Well, I believe that like the Super Bowl, we're playing stupid bowl between the United States and Cuba. Elian belongs to his parents. The rightful ownership of a son is to his father and/or his mother, and I believe he should go back.</s>BATTISTA: We'll take a break and continue here in a moment. Sister Jeanne O'Laughlin is president of Barry University, Florida's oldest and largest Catholic university. She is a longtime child advocate and activists for Miami's immigrant community. In 1998, she went to Cuba on an ecumenical mission to promote religious freedom.</s>SPENCER EIG, ATTORNEY FOR GONZALEZ FAMILY IN MIAMI: If he gets back to Cuba, he'll be carted around the country with Fidel as a symbol of Fidel's victory over the United States. He won't be going back to his father and grandmothers anyway. Ultimately, he's too risky for Fidel to allow an ordinary and free life, even an ordinary enslaved life in Cuba. He'll have to be held in a tight, tight grip. And that won't be good for the boy.</s>BATTISTA: Sharon, go ahead.</s>SHARON: I'm the mother of a son. I would gladly give my life for that son. I'm also from Florida, and the raft-people situation is something that we have dealt with for years. I feel like Elian is here with relatives who love him. And I feel like one thing that needs to be considered is he is not a possession of his parents, he is not a pawn in the political situation but a person, and his well-being needs to be first considered.</s>BATTISTA: And as we talk about this, we're looking at live picture now from Miami where the plane carrying the two grandmothers is landing at this time. Tamiami Airport there in Miami. As Mark Potter said a few moments ago, the grandmothers will be flown by helicopter to a hospital where they will then be driven to Barry University to see their 6-six-year-old grandson, who they have not seen for the last couple of months, in a very private meeting, in a very public outdoor setting, shall we say. Eduardo Rasco is still on the phone with us. And I was curious to ask you that if this matter should end up in family court, who would likely be the preferred guardian under Florida law?</s>RASCO: The guardian would be the person who will be legally able to speak to -- on behalf of Elian -- will be the person who is nominated by the court. The court, of course, has to be petitioned by somebody. At this point, Lazaro Gonzalez is the only person who has petitioned the court, and so the court would only have the authority to appoint him. The court does not just go out and choose a guardian. It is based upon the petition has been filed, and since it has been filed by Lazaro Gonzalez, he could be the only one who would be named.</s>BATTISTA: Why would the relatives want this to end up in family court when it seems like the law, though, is certainly on the side of the father?</s>RASCO: Well, I completely disagree with you. The law is not necessarily on the side of the father, and we want it to go to family court because that's the way we resolve family disputes in the United States.</s>BATTISTA: But why not is -- why not is it not on the side of the father? He's shown to be a very loving and fit father.</s>RASCO: Well, that hasn't been determined. That's been the picture that's been presented by the telecast. You know that...</s>BATTISTA: Who's going to say he's not?</s>RASCO: ... it's very curious that the father is not here, only the grandmothers. My understanding is that the father has been taken into custody and has been sequestered by the government. And he doesn't have the freedom over his own person right now, much less the freedom to raise his son the way he wants to raise a child. In Cuba, fathers don't have that right. They must raise the child in accordance with the communist ideology. Otherwise, there will be repercussions. So the father as we speak of here in the United States is very different than a father in Cuba.</s>BATTISTA: All right. We'll process that here for just a moment and take a break and continue in just a second.</s>BATTISTA: All right. Joining us now is Jeffery Leving, a custody attorney who filed a friend of the court brief with the INS outlining why the boy should be returned to his father. Jeffery, we were talking just a few moments ago with Eduardo Rasco about if this case should end up in state family court. Mr. Rasco is trying to make the argument that the courts would not necessarily favor the biological father, as they usually do, because basically he would not be portrayed as being the same sort of father as we envision here in the United States. I don't know if you heard any of that or care to comment.</s>JEFFERY LEVING, CUSTODY ATTORNEY: Well, first of all, I don't believe this case should ever end up being litigated in the state court, especially in Florida in the domestic relations division. This is a federal matter. The federal government has exclusive jurisdiction in determining immigration issues, and they have given that authority to the INS. However, if everything falls apart and what I believe to be an incorrect decision is made -- in this case, is litigated in state court in Florida in a custody dispute -- I really think this father will probably lose. This father will have to deal with not only gender bias, because I believe many fathers have to fight against gender bias in America because fathers are considered biological necessities but social accidents in many place in America, but this father will even have a more difficult burden, because I believe that the judges sitting in state court in Florida are somewhat dependent on the Cuban exile vote, and if this father's future and his future relationship with his boy is at risk and dependent on what a Cuban exile or a judge who is dependent on votes from Cuban exiles, I think this father will lose.</s>BATTISTA: So you are saying that if this situation was reversed and it was the mother in Cuba who was trying to regain custody of the boy, we wouldn't be here?</s>LEVING: I definitely believe that's true. If the father had drowned while trying to come to America with this little boy, and especially if the mother made allegations of parental kidnapping, I believe that the boy would have been immediately returned. The problem here is that the mother drowned, and fathers in America are considered really insignificant parenting. And if the gender roles were reversed and the father had drowned, this boy would probably be back in Cuba right now.</s>BATTISTA: Meanwhile, this proposed legislation to grant permanent residency or citizenship to Elian that's going to be taken up by Congress, how does this complicate the whole situation?</s>LEVING: Well, that complicates the matter tremendously, because if this boy is granted U.S. citizenship, then the INS will have no authority to make any determinations concerning this boy's immigration status. So one way to circumvent the INS, which I believe is wrong, but a legal way to circumvent the INS is to grant the boy citizenship, but I think that, that would not be the right thing to do.</s>BATTISTA: Let me take a phone call, Mary Beth (ph) in Maryland. Mary Beth, are you there?</s>MARY BETH: Yes, I'm here.</s>BATTISTA: Go ahead.</s>MARY BETH: I just wanted to say this is not a battle of good and evil, it's about a little boy who needs to go home and be with his family, his grandparents and his dad, and if it was any other country but Cuba, I don't think this would be an issue. And another thing, I am really upset with Congress, because I think that a lot of congressional members are using this as a platform to get exposure, and they are not necessarily looking at the best interest of the child. Everybody is already projecting what Castro is doing, and in a way we are doing the same thing here only in the name of being free. We are withholding the boy. We are determining where he needs to be, where -- who he needs to be with. It is not up to the American courts. This is a Cuban citizen, and I don't think that it is really up to us. I think he should go home today with his grandmothers.</s>BATTISTA: All right. Mary Beth, thanks very much. Again, live pictures of the plane, two grandmothers onboard that plane, the helicopter you can see there in the foreground, which will take them to Mount Sinai Hospital momentarily, and from then onto the university for the meeting with their little grandson. Mary Beth brings up some good points. How does all of this affect a little boy? Alan Delamater is a pediatric psychologist with the University of Miami School of Medicine, and he joins us from Miami. I don't even know where to begin with you, Alan. But let's start with this meeting today and whether or not this neutral ground meeting with the grandmothers is a good thing for Elian.</s>ALAN DELAMATER, PEDIATRIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I think it is certainly a good thing. Let's remember that this boy had a life before two months ago. He grew up in a family that was supportive in Cuba, where he had significant emotional bonds with not only his father, but also with both sets of grandparents. These are, therefore, very important relationships, and I do think it is important to reestablish that connection for him.</s>BATTISTA: How is he likely to react to them after not having seen them for a couple of months?</s>DELAMATER: Well, I'm sure, you know, in many ways it is going to be a mixture of a lot of emotions. I'm sure there's a lot of anticipation, and I'm sure that he must be feeling a lot of anxiety right now, because even a 6-year-old can understand that there's a lot of uncertainty about his status at this point, where is he going to live. A 6-year-old wants to know that, they want to know where they are going to live, and where they are going to eat, and who they are going to play with, and who is going to care for them.</s>BATTISTA: Is he likely aware of the hostility between the two sides involved here?</s>DELAMATER: He probably is picking up a lot, and kids don't necessarily have to pick this up from words that they hear, they can pick it up from the feelings and from the atmosphere, the emotional atmosphere around him. It is probably a pretty tense situation in his Miami household right now.</s>BATTISTA: You know, a lot of people from the audience always want to know how does Elian feel about this, where does he want to be. Is it fair to ask a 6-year-old that question?</s>DELAMATER: I don't believe it is fair to ask a 6-year-old that question at all. A 6-year-old is going to be motivated to please those important adults in his environment, and to say the things that he perceives they want to hear. There is a lot of pressure exerted on young children to say those kinds of things. This is not a decision a 6-year-old could make or should make, and this 6-year-old needs to stay out of this. Reasonable adults need to resolve this as quickly as possible.</s>BATTISTA: And this little boy has been so -- through so much since Thanksgiving day, you have to wonder if he's even been able to come to grips with the death of his mother yet.</s>DELAMATER: Well, I think that is a very valid point. It is clear that young children are affected by traumatic stress, it is clear that young children are affected by the death of their parents. It is also clear that in the two months since all of this has happened he's been the subject of intense scrutiny by the media, and he's been the subject of a real geopolitical struggle right now. With all this distraction it is reasonable to think that he hasn't had a chance to really deal with these losses and this type of trauma.</s>BATTISTA: And if he loses his father on top of that, what might be the repercussions of that?</s>DELAMATER: Well, I mean, this is also a very significant relationship in his life. To be separated from his father and to be separated from his family of origin is itself an additional stress that this child has had to deal with in these last couple of months. I think that it will be difficult for him to really do well without these primary relationships with his family of origin.</s>BATTISTA: Let me go to the audience quickly here, Laurie (ph).</s>LAURIE: I do not understand our misconception in this country about Cuba being this hellhole where people go and they're imprisonated (ph). It is actually a country just like ours. We are in the land of politicians and media that spins and lies to us. This father was on television and told us personally that he works in the hotel tourism industry, makes a good living, Elian had his own room, friends, life. This was a happy life and child, and the mother brought him here for her own services. I don't think she was thinking of her child honestly.</s>BATTISTA: Is Mr. Rasco still on the phone with us there?</s>RASCO: Yes.</s>BATTISTA: You do have concerns about the sort of life that Elian would have if he returned to Cuba, what are those fears?</s>RASCO: Well, they are very real fears. First of all, in Cuba unlike the last caller, what she said, life is not at all...</s>BATTISTA: Mr. Rasco, I'm sorry, forgive me. I need to interrupt. We need to go to Washington, D.C. now for a press conference at the National Press Club. This is one of the survivors from the original boat tragedy.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I ask everybody that's here and the American community that is listening to this to please respect the memory of the mother, that I lived those three days with that mother and the only thing she wanted was that her son would come to a free country. Thank you.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I think Donato has a few words.</s>DONATO DALRYMPLE, ELIAN'S RESCUER: Good afternoon, my name is Donato Dalrymple. I'm not one of the family members, but I've had the privilege to know this family in the last 60 days, and I've had the great privilege to be one of the fishermen -- my cousin Sam wasn't able to be here. But I represent both of us that we were able to pull Elian Gonzalez out of the waters off of the shore of Fort Lauderdale Beach. And it is very emotional to be even here at this moment, not just because we are in front of you the press because this has been going on for some days and it is just very emotional to know that Elian was struggling for his life and now the boy is going to have to be sent back. Somehow, this government is trying to pull that, and it is unfortunate that he can't speak for himself and his mother cannot speak for him either. And there's a lot of people here that talk about democracy, that we live in a democracy. I'm American. I'm American-born. I love this country. My father raised me to abide the laws in this country. And it is very emotional to pull a little boy out of the ocean and to be able to send him back to a place where his mother -- her -- she will -- he will -- she will be put -- he will be -- excuse me, I'm sorry. The mother will be put down in front of this little boy. He'll be traumatized. He's already been traumatized by having to flee a country and also to survive two and a half days in the deep. And to go back to a country where they say he has a loving father, that wouldn't come to see him because of the struggles of Fidel Castro separating the families, I think it's a crime. And as an American, I just want to stand up. I know I'm only known as the fisherman. But I'm also an American, born in this great country. And I think that we, the American people, should look at what's going down just 32 miles from my house in Little Havana. I've spent the last 40 days going down there to visit this little boy, and this loving family. The reason I say they're loving, they welcomed me, and I'm a stranger. They fed me. I've danced with them on Christmas Eve and New Year's. They're a very loving family. They love this boy. He was just put in their lap one day on Thanksgiving, and they've done nothing but try to love this little boy and to give everything that they have. And believe me, I've been down there to Little Havana, they don't have what the average Americans have, but the one thing that they have, is they have love. And I'll tell you what, people are trying to strip that from these people, saying that this is a circus, and all the other things they've been saying, this fiasco that's been going on. And I'll tell you, for me, as an outsider from this family, I'm ashamed of the Council of Churches that they would come forth as Christians, as men of God, and want to bring this boy back to a place where they know that is not fit for human mankind. Now there are a lot of Cubans living there, and they surviving, but that's what they are doing, they're surviving down there in a tyranny that's been going on for 41 years under Fidel Castro, and I think it's about time that we stand up against this. We talk about the Cold War is over. The Cold War is not over. Just 90 miles south of Key West, we still have a socialist dictator, and there's a lot of abuse going on, and we want to stop it here with Elian. His mother fled that country so that he could be free. She was hoping for that same freedom, but she wasn't strong enough to make that trip. And we're just standing here today, I'm standing from my heart I'm not a professional at this, just to say that I want to fight for this little boy and continue the fight that his mother had for him.</s>WILLIAM GONZALEZ, ELIAN'S COUSIN: Good afternoon. My name is William Gonzalez. I'm a second cousin of Elian. And I grew up with his father in Cuba. In 1998, I went to Cuba to visit my family, and I spoke to my cousin, Juan Miguel, and I didn't want to say that before, because I didn't want the make him any trouble in Cuba, because like you guys see, he says he's free; we know that he's not free. He's talking about the government. Everything -- when you stop, stand up in front of a lot of people, like you guys, and I have to talk about my son -- I have a little son, too -- I don't need to read no paper; everything come from the heart. So that way we all know that he's not the cousin that we have over there. He's manipulated by the government, and he has to say everything that the government tell him to say. And I went to Cuba has year -- I mean, 1998, and he told me him and his brother and my other two cousins that are already here -- they came in the rafter -- that as soon as he got a chance, he would come here. He asked me, what was the deal here? And I told him, if you're going to go, just try to get, like, a good boat; don't go on something that you will risk your life like, the mother did on his son. And he told me, he will, assuming he got a chance, he will. So right now, my point is, I'm looking at two different persons, you know. I'm looking at him and...</s>BATTISTA: We're listening to press conference in Washington D.C. These are folks and family members who are sympathetic to the relatives of Elian Gonzalez in Miami. They're in Washington, lobbying congressmen up there to their side of this issue. And again, a picture of Tamiami Airport in Miami, where the helicopter there waits to take Elian's two grandmothers to Barry University and a meeting with their grandson. Jeffery, one question here before we take a break. One of the things that when Donato Dalrymple was speaking, and he was one of the fishermen who rescued Elian out of the ocean -- I think it's always disheartening to hear people talk about everybody is loving family except the family back in Cuba.</s>LEVING: Well, we can't assume that the biological father in Cuba loves his son any less than any of us love our children just because we're Americans and he's in Cuba. I'm anti-Castro. I'm anti- communist. However, I don't want to use this child to attack Castro. I don't believe it's in the best interest of this child. Now at the press conference, a statement was made, and I wrote it down here: "Don't strip love from these people." "Love from these people," referencing the relatives in Miami. Well, if you don't strip love from them, and leave Elian with them, then you are stripping Elian with the love of his father, his grandparents, his half sibling and his stepmother, and these are people that he knows, these are people he is familiar with. His relatives in Miami didn't raise him from birth. They weren't his primary caretakers. These people aren't familiar with him the way the biological father is. And if you look at pages 46 and 47 of my book, "Father's Rights," that I wrote with psychologist Dr. Ken Dachman, I have statistics that show what can happen to fatherless children. One is an increase in suicide. Another is drug abuse. Another is chronic asthma. And I can go on and on and on. So we need to focus on what's in the best interest of this boy, not the Miami relatives, not the Cuban government, not public interests groups or private interests groups or people with personal agendas. And there are too many personal agendas intertwined within case that have nothing to do with the best interest of this child.</s>BATTISTA: And we need to take a break at this time. Our thanks to Jeffery Leving, Eduardo Rasco and Alan Delamater for joining us this half hour. If Elian is sent back to Cuba, we'll talk more about what his life would be like. Can he ever be just another normal kid again? We'll have two views of that when we come back.</s>BATTISTA: Welcome back. Joining us now is Nicolas Gutierrez, an attorney and president of Bridge of Young Cuban Professionals. Also with us, Pamela Falk, a former director of Latin American Affairs at the America's -- American Society rather. She spends a lot of time traveling back and forth to Cuba. And welcome to both of you. Nicolas, I had to interrupt Eduardo Rasco just a few moments ago. I was asking him about his fears and concerns about what Elian's life would be like in Cuba, and Americans don't seem to have a single view on that. What are your fears and concerns?</s>NICOLAS GUTIERREZ, PRESIDENT, YOUNG CUBAN PROFESSIONALS: I believe you're right. I think most Americans cannot really be expected to know what life is like in Cuba. It's a life that's so different and so alien from our own, a totalitarian where dictatorship controls every aspect of the society, including a systematic stripping of parental control over their children as a matter of policy.</s>BATTISTA: Can you be more specific? What do you mean by stripping them of control? Can you hear me OK?</s>GUTIERREZ: OK. I can hear you. Go ahead.</s>BATTISTA: Could you get a little more specific for us and tell us what you mean by stripping of control?</s>GUTIERREZ: Yes. Remember, this regime in Cuba, as a matter of policy, has separated parents from their children. Children in many cases when they show some athletic prowess are taken from their parents and sent for specialized training. All children assist what they call</s>BATTISTA: No, I'm sorry. I just want to interrupt here and get Pamela in quickly. Pamela, you have been back and forth to Cuba a number of times. This -- is this the sort of thing that you have witnessed in terms of family life there?</s>PAMELA FALK, CUBA ANALYST: Well, I think there is one story here, and that is how Elian lived. And he lived very well, with both his mother and his father, and I think we have to take both of their interests into account. There have been a lot of things that have been said about what his mother had wanted or not wanted, and I don't think we should speak ill of her. I think the issue is that she obviously wanted him out, or at least that's what we can glean from what people have said, and to come to the United States, and the father wanted him to stay. At least that's what we can glean right now. The only -- the only bottom line here is that the boy has to be back with his father. There's got to be some voice of reason here that says there's a way to do this. And you can't send him back in a taxi or in a -- with federal marshals. So the logical solution is to find a way to have the father sit down with him here and discuss what he wants. And if he goes back, he goes back with some of the rights that his mother earned for him. But there's -- we've been spun eight waste ways from Sunday by all sides on this, Bobbie, and I think it's so sad. This is a young boy -- he's only six -- who has witnessed something unimaginable to all of us: to watch the mother who he fell asleep with every night die as he slipped out of her hands. I mean, it's just unbelievable to think how sad this is. He's got to be back with his father, and we've got to find a way to work that out.</s>BATTISTA: Let me take a phone call from Jesse in Florida -- Jesse.</s>JESSE: Yes, it's a good thing that the INS wasn't here when the pilgrims landed. They would have sent the pilgrims back. Nobody is taking the mother's wishes into consideration. She died to give him freedom. Evidently, we're not the home of the free and the land of the brave anymore, because we the don't have a president who is brave enough to stand up to Castro. Thank you.</s>BATTISTA: All right, Jesse, thank you. And we'll take a break and continue in a moment.</s>BATTISTA: Live pictures from Barry University, a lot of protesters out in front there, awaiting the arrival of the two grandmothers who will meet with Elian. This is a very passionate issue for both sides involved, and, Nicolas, if you can hear me, do all of the, you know, political groups and adjunct groups who are getting involved with both sides of this issue even give a thought to how all of this and all of what's going on there could affect or damage Elian?</s>GUTIERREZ: Yes. I think it's innately cruel to submit a 6-year- old psyche to the circus that is here. I mean, since when is the INS in the family law business? How can they condition the parole or the custody, parental custody of Elian's great uncle to whether or not he will agree to meet at the home of a nun here in Miami Beach, Sister Jeanne McLaughlin from Barry University? I don't know that it is in the -- the INS's strong suit is family law. This is a country of rule of law. This is a country where a family court should be making these delicate decisions, where the best interests of Elian as a child will be looked at. It should -- some INS bureaucrat should not determine whether Elian should be sent back to a country where his milk ration will end next year, where he -- and his report cards at school will be graded on ideological compliance with the regime as well as his parents. I mean, that is just not appropriate.</s>BATTISTA: Well,at the same time, you know, you're calling what the INS is doing a circus. At the same time, is it right for the relatives and the supporters of those relatives to parade this little boy down the street, waiving a subpoena, things he can't even begin to understand? I mean, both sides are conducting a circus here, are they not?</s>GUTIERREZ: I dare say no, I don't think that's correct. I dare say that the Cuban-American community in Miami is a slightly better arbiter of what life in Cuba would be like if Elian was sent back than an INS bureaucrat, or a Clinton administration official. I don't know that -- why can't they meet family to family with the child, not alone with the grandmothers in the upper room of Sister McLaughlin's house. Let the two family's get together in a family environment. The grandmothers have been welcomed to Miami. Flowers have been thrown in their path. All the family -- all the great uncle wanted was for them to come and have dinner together at their house without bureaucrats, without press, without Castro diplomats escorting these poor grandmothers around in a plane apparently chartered by the National Council of Churches, a group whose history of soft spot for Fidel Castro and of alignment with radical communist regimes goes back to when they orchestrated anti-U.S. protests...</s>BATTISTA: Let me get Pamela...</s>GUTIERREZ: ... turn a deaf ear to Soviet dissidents...</s>BATTISTA: I only have about a minute left, Nicolas, so I need to get Pamela in here.</s>FALK: Bobbie, you asked before what his life would be like in Cuba. Elian has a very loving family in Cuba, all four grandparents and his father, and he has a very loving family in Miami. They should sit down together and on that I think we are all in agreement. The INS could show some leadership, get the father up here, ask Fidel Castro to please let him come up and let them all sit down and determine and the father should determine what's best for Elian and that's the only way that they can really make sure that this little boy will survive all of this.</s>BATTISTA: And very quickly in five seconds, do you think Congress should be involved in this, Pamela?</s>FALK: I think it will help the process. It's a check to give him his rights, to give him permanent resident status. It will make it more reasonable for him to come back and forth. If he goes down he might be able to come back next year and I think that would rationalize the situation quite a bit.</s>BATTISTA: All right. Pamela Falk, Nicolas Gutierrez, thank you both for joining us this afternoon. We are out of time. Stay with CNN's continuing coverage of the Elian Gonzalez story. We'll be back tomorrow.