Are Church and State Getting Less Separate?
MARY MATALIN, CO-HOST: The Ten Commandments on display in courthouses, a moment of silence in public schools: Tonight, are new state laws blurring the line between church and state?</s>ANNOUNCER: Live from Washington, CROSSFIRE. On the left, Bill Press; on the right, Mary Matalin. In the crossfire, Barry Lynn, executive director of Americans United for Separation Church and State, and Janet Parshall, chief spokeswoman for the Family Research Council.</s>MATALIN: Good evening and welcome to CROSSFIRE. Americans list restoring moral values as their No. 1 concern today and are crafting all kinds of legislation to do just that. As the clock strikes 12:00 tonight, for instance, court officials will be posting the Ten Commandments in Paoli, Indiana, and in Virginia, students must now start each day with a moment of silence. But the nation's current concern with moral issues is raising age-old church-state tensions. Civil liberties groups embraced the Supreme Court ban on voluntary student-led prayer at sports events, but loudly opposed this week's decision to extend public resources to private and parochial schools. Tonight, church and state, religion and politics: Is the wall of separation between church and state crumbling or is our reach for religion a reaction to our sense of moral decline? And are our public institutions the right vehicle to inculcate private values? -- Bill.</s>BILL PRESS, CO-HOST: Janet Parshall, good evening.</s>JANET PARSHALL, FAMILY RESEARCH COUNCIL: Nice to be here.</s>PRESS: So tonight at midnight you can hang the Ten Commandments, according to state law, you can hang the Ten Commandments in Indiana courthouses, you can hang the Ten Commandments in South Dakota public schools even though the Supreme Court in 1980 said that hanging the Ten Commandments in the classrooms of Kentucky clearly violated the First Amendment freedom of religion clause. Janet, if it was unconstitutional then, it's still unconstitutional, right?</s>PARSHALL: Well, let me tell you, the movie "The Patriot" opens this weekend with the phrase "Some things are worth fighting for," and this would be one of them. Let me tell you what Judge Rehnquist said in that decision. He said, The First Amendment does not provide that the private -- the public sector should be insulated from anything that has religious significance or importance. This is about acknowledgement, Bill. And by the way, those justices, when they penned that Stone versus Graham decision, they had to open bronze doors that have a relief of the Ten Commandments on them. And the chief justice gets to look up and see a copy of Moses holding the Ten Commandments. So how come it's OK for them but it's the scariest thing in the world for the kids in Indiana?</s>PRESS: Well, take them all out, as far as I'm concerned. But here's the -- here's the, I think, what doesn't add up about this effort to get the Ten Commandments up in all the classrooms, the idea that hanging something on the wall is going to change human behavior. I want to quote to you a retired Baptist pastor by the name of Bob Lockhart, who wrote recently in "The Orlando Sentinel." Quote: "You've got this mystical idea you can hang the Commandments on the wall and people will start behaving. That's ridiculous. If that works so good, why don't they hang them up in their churches and quit fighting?" Right? Point well-taken.</s>PARSHALL: I would take diametrically the opposite approach and view: Instead of stripping them everywhere, I'd put them everywhere: hang them in the churches, but put them in the schools and put them in the courthouses. And I'll tell you again -- last time we talked, we were both teachers, we recognized that fact. Remember, we hung signs in the hallway: Don't run, don't shove, no chewing gum. We didn't know if it would change anybody's behavior, but we infused in their environment a code of behavior. And the funny thing is we sit here tonight having this conversation in America, and Justice Rehnquist recognized that the Ten Commandments are the cornerstone of law for all of the Western part of the world. So it's not -- it's very germane.</s>PRESS: No. Sorry, that's not what's behind it. I think what's behind it -- and I was reading an article in "The Indianapolis Star" that one of the people who voted for -- or I mean, it was a poll. "Do you support this new law?" Right? One of the people quoted in "The Start" said -- quote: "The Ten Commandments are very meaningful. They're the background of the Christian religion." A Jewish legislator, the only one in the Kentucky legislature, was asked on the floor of the assembly whether she believed in Jesus and that Jesus rose from the dead. The people who want to put the Ten Commandments up are imposing the Christian religion on all Americans. That's what it's really all about, isn't it?</s>PARSHALL: Ooh, I'm very surprised you would ascribe motive, because, by the way, if you go back and study the history of the Ten Commandments, it would come from the Judeo part of the Judeo-Christian ethic.</s>PRESS: No, of course it does. But that's not why it's being used today.</s>PARSHALL: Actually, it's being used today because it happens to be the cornerstone of American law. And by the way, in many of the places where it's displayed, it's displayed with the Constitution, the Bill of Rights and other historically significant...</s>PRESS: It's not the cornerstone of American law. That's ridiculous.</s>PARSHALL: Thou shalt not kill. Anyplace in the American law?</s>PRESS: Then why don't we get rid of the guns that kill?</s>PARSHALL: That would be another CROSSFIRE for another night.</s>PRESS: Yes. I mean, come on. Be consistent.</s>MATALIN: Golly. Get a grip. OK. He's already in the holiday mode. How religious is this, Barry? OK. Let's look at the national sentiment about posting the Ten Commandments. Nationally -- this is from our Gallup poll -- displaying the Ten Commandments, favored by 74 percent. Only a quarter of Americans opposing it. In Indiana where this has been broadly and openly debated, 90 percent of Indianians support it. It's -- there are laws passed or in the process of passing in 12 states. It's not isolated. It's not in the Bible belt. It's not even Christian, because 90 percent of America isn't Christian. Do you really find this one little effort to search for some moral grounding that harmful?</s>BARRY LYNN, AMERICANS UNITED FOR SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE: Well, you know, I think Americans do want some moral center. They even want it in politicians and they're having trouble finding it. So they turn to this kind of exploitation of religion. This is religiosity. This is not religion. You know, in Indiana, I'm sure that the polls say most people want the Ten Commandments up on the walls. But if it was as simple as hanging up the Ten Commandments and making us moral, I guess in the state of Indiana, which routinely has Gideon Bibles in the motel rooms, there wouldn't be any adultery there. But there is. It just isn't that simple. It's not magic.</s>MATALIN: Watch out. You're talking to a Hoosier here.</s>LYNN: I'm aware of that, and that's why -- that's why I'm sure you've been in motels for the best of reasons.</s>PARSHALL: And why did they -- why did they do that?</s>LYNN: Because a court rightly said that that promotes the idea of Christianity and of godliness in Ohio, and it makes some of the people in Ohio feel like second-class citizens.</s>MATALIN: Just a minute, Janet. Before we talk about exploiting this and I -- you haven't said it, but you're dying to say the religious right, those extremists. Let me point out some of the others supporting this. The Indiana governor happens to be a Democrat. When the House of Representatives voted on posting the Ten Commandments, a quarter of the Democratic caucus did this. It's not just Republicans. It's Democrats.</s>LYNN: Oh, it's not. Oh, believe me.</s>MATALIN: It's at all level of government.</s>LYNN: Mary...</s>MATALIN: It is you who are in the minority, and what you are expressing is tyranny of the minority.</s>LYNN: No, it's not, because the Bill of Rights of course was designed not to protect the majority, because they already have the majority. They have the right to crush other people's opinions but for the fact that we protect the minority with the Bill of Rights. This is about politics, but it's not about partisanship. It's about people who don't want to show up on some Christian Coalition score card in November looking like their anti-God, anti-Jesus candidate.</s>PARSHALL: Can I just...</s>LYNN: Janet Parshall's campaign to hang 10, to put the Ten Commandments up is just designed to politicize this issue.</s>PARSHALL: Really?</s>LYNN: It is not designed -- if you wanted to make good on the idea of communicating the Ten Commandments, including -- maybe you could explain to me that second one about graven images. What does that teach children in the second grade? Don't draw pictures of dogs.</s>PARSHALL: First of all, bipartisan support when the House voted on this, and you'll remember the dialogue started as a result of Columbine, because you can have metal detectors, gun detectors, drug detectors, but we need a heart detector. And just below the veneer, there's a real heart problem in this country. And that's why you're getting polls that say 75 percent support the displaying of the Ten Commandments...</s>LYNN: Janet, why...</s>PARSHALL: ... including one today from the Freedom Forum First Amendment Center that said 65 percent of teachers in America...</s>LYNN: Why is this...</s>PARSHALL: ... should lead kids in prayer.</s>LYNN: OK, why is it...</s>PARSHALL: I'll tell you what, Barry, the problem with this country is not that we're suffering from too much prayer. Trust me.</s>LYNN: No, and that's exactly -- I would happen to agree with that. The problem is why do more people say that they believe in prayer being returned to public schools than actually take their children to church.</s>PARSHALL: Because we're hurting -- we're hurting as a country.</s>LYNN: And so we want the government to jump in, and do what the churches, synagogues and mosques don't do.</s>PARSHALL: What we don't the government to do is to crush it?</s>PRESS: I want to jump in. I want to jump in with a question, OK. When you're going to hang the Ten Commandments, I want to know which version are you going to hang? Are you going to hang the version in Exodus or the version in Deuteronomy?</s>PARSHALL: And Deuteronomy.</s>PRESS: Or the Jewish version or the Catholic version? Or as George W. Bush said, are you going hang the standardized version, and who decides?</s>PARSHALL: You know, Bill, the wonderful answer to that question is it's all the same author. So let the group decide.</s>PRESS: No, it's not. No, it's not.</s>LYNN: No.</s>PRESS: No, no, no. Let me give you one good example. In the Jewish version it says for the Fifth Commandment, "Thou shalt not murder." The Christian version is "Thou shalt not kill."</s>PARSHALL: Well, wait a minute. The Christian version would come from the Old Testament, which would be all part of the same Bible.</s>PRESS: It's different. It's different. The Christians write it "Thou shalt not kill." There's a big difference between the two. Who decides?</s>PARSHALL: Well, actually, if you look at the Hebrew, the word is murder, which means take innocent life. Same author...</s>PRESS: Who decides what goes on the wall?</s>PARSHALL: Whoever wants to. Let it be the statehouse...</s>PARSHALL: ... let it be the school house. The bottom line is the issue is not -- the issue is not the lexicon.</s>PRESS: I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Could you repeat that? The statehouse will decide. There you go. The state is imposing religion.</s>PARSHALL: No, no, no.</s>PRESS: Mary.</s>PARSHALL: The state decides if they want to hang the Ten Commandments.</s>PRESS: No. No.</s>PARSHALL: Here's what the courts have said, and my learned opponent will recognize this. The courts have said you may not be hostile to religion. And since the early '60s, what we've seen is a seismic shift where instead of benevolent neutrality we have seen malevolent hostility.</s>LYNN: Let me tell you why this is absolutely wrong. The Supreme Court in its decision that said you can't have prayer over the public address system at high school football games said the purpose here was to have the majority be able to dominate over the minority. In other words, those Baptists that are the majority in Texas would have always won. Those students would always have been praying their prayer over the public address system.</s>PARSHALL: And what did Rehnquist say?</s>LYNN: And just a second. And make those minorities, including the Mormon parent and the Catholic parent who brought to the case, feel like they were outsiders in their own community. That's what majority rule does.</s>PARSHALL: But Rehnquist -- and in the dissenting opinion, Rehnquist said, "This opinion bristles with hostility." I rest my case, your honor.</s>LYNN: No bristling there.</s>PRESS: Well, rest your case right there, because we have to take a break and Mary's chomping at the bit. Coming up, meanwhile, political candidates these days are falling all over themselves professing their faith. Should we believe them? And is it making any difference?</s>PRESS: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Religion used to be below the radar in politics, but not this year. Not only has the Supreme Court made several important rulings on religious issues, but all candidates for president, Republican and Democrat, have made a point about bragging about their religious observance. Is this sudden display of religion constitutional or is it causing the founding fathers to roll in their graves? Debating the issues tonight, Janet Parshall, chief spokesperson of the Family Research Council, and Barry Lynn, executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State. Mary, praise the Lord.</s>MATALIN: But of course -- hallelujah. Of course, that is the very issue. This is not a sudden display. Our entire history is built on respect for religion. The first state-mandated school in 1647, designed for -- to teach children how to read the Bible so they could make their own moral decisions. Let's flash forward, Thomas Jefferson, who coined the phrase separation of church and state, when he was the school district -- I mean, District of Columbia school person he designed a curricula that had the Bible and hymnals as the main text. Our history is replete with public education and religion being part of it.</s>LYNN: There's no question that religion is a part of America. The question is, is the state sponsorship of religion, has it been good or bad in the history of our country? Thomas Jefferson, like most politicians -- many people are shocked to hear this -- was not always consistent. But he was, remember, the president who wouldn't declare Thanksgiving a national holiday because he said it was based on a religious principle and therefore inconsistent with the idea of separation of church and state. We do -- we made the decision over 200 years ago that governments were going to support all religions or some religions. And that's still the standard, not withstanding the Supreme Court did earlier this week by allowing computers and other resources and devices to flow freely into private religious schools. That was a terrible decision of the United States Supreme Court.</s>MATALIN: But supporting Bibles or supporting the Ten Commandments, supporting those kinds of rules, if you will, that are nothing more than -- been codified into our law, a respect for our parents, for our spouses, for our neighbors, they're part of the culture. It's the same rationale that the court used when they validated their overreaching Miranda. It's part of the culture. People don't think of the Ten Commandments as a religious document.</s>LYNN: Oh, that's -- but that's a sad thing. You know, as a minister in the United Church of Christ myself, I am not happy that when courts look at these words and phrases, they say, well, it's lost it's religious significance. It is religious. At least four of the Ten Commandments are explicitly religious. And I refer to the second one: Do not make graven images. That means don't, according to the Hebrew text, do not make a representation of God or anything God has created above the waters, below the waters or on the land. I mean, that really says a second- grader can't have an art class. What kind of message is that to be communicating?</s>MATALIN: Oh, Barry, come on.</s>LYNN: Here's what I'd like to do. Would you agree with this? If we could around this table come up with 10 principles that would include don't steal the pencil from your neighbor's desk, respect the opinions of others, those kinds of traditional community values are always taught in America's schools, from elementary schools to high schools. The only objection I have is when you need approved texts from the Book of Leviticus or some other holy scripture in order to prove it. I don't need that. God, by the way, did not need to be endorsed by the House of Representatives in order to feel -- I'm sure that he is control -- in control in the state of Ohio. This is just posturing.</s>PRESS: Janet. let me ask you about another decision or another state law that's bound to be struck down, which is the Virginia law requiring a moment of silence at the beginning of the day.</s>PARSHALL: Right.</s>PRESS: Now, last week, a couple of weeks ago maybe, the Supreme Court ruled that public prayer at football games was unconstitutional. Writing for the majority, here's what Justice John Paul Stevens said. Quote: "Nothing in the Constitution prohibits any public school student from voluntarily praying at any time before, during of after the school day. But the religious liberty protected by the Constitution is abridged when the state affirmatively sponsors the particular religious practice of prayer." Janet, you can take that word for word against the Virginia moment of silence, correct?</s>PARSHALL: No, I don't think so, and the reason because it is a moment of silence. Now, Johnny and Susie can infuse into that silence whatever they want. So this is like a trial for heresy. Uh-oh, within the 60 seconds there may be some religious thought. And that's the problem. Poor Barry suffers from a severe case of theo-phobia, all things religious. It says, "In God we trust" on our coin. We put our hand over our heart, and we pledge allegiance to the flag. "One nation" -- uh-oh -- "under God."</s>LYNN: Janet -- Janet, really...</s>PARSHALL: We sing "God bless America." So that we systematically strip all...</s>PRESS: I've just got to jump in first. I've read the law. You are so wrong. The law is a state-sponsored law, again, which sets up that moment of silence for -- in the law it says -- "mediation, prayer or some other silent method activity."</s>PARSHALL: "Or," "or" -- there's the operative word, "or," "or."</s>PRESS: No, but...</s>PARSHALL: In other words...</s>PRESS: It is</s>LYNN: Bill...</s>PARSHALL: In its application, it means that Johnny or Susie can put in that 60 seconds what they want, but prayer does not by state law exclude it.</s>LYNN: Let me just -- let me explain something. We all know, unless we are living in caves...</s>PRESS: Yes.</s>LYNN: ... that the purpose of the Virginia so-called moment of silent prayer, meditation or other silent activity is to bring the government into the position of setting a specific time and a manner for prayer.</s>PRESS: It's in the law.</s>LYNN: When Virginia school officials for one day said, well, now teachers don't actually have to say you can do prayer here, of course, your guys on the far right of the Virginia legislature...</s>PARSHALL: Oh, I know it would come. There it is. There's the adjective.</s>LYNN: ... went berserk, and said, no, no, no, teachers have to use the prayer -- the word prayer, because they want to encourage prayer.</s>PARSHALL: Can I tell you why...</s>LYNN: Government has no business doing that. None.</s>PARSHALL: That's important to respond to. That's important to respond, because it was multiple choice: prayer meditation or reflection, all of the above. And the reason they have to make the declaration, Johnny, Susie, you can put in there, is because there are folks like Barry that have scared the living daylights out of kids that they can't pray in school.</s>LYNN: Yes, I'm sure the average first-grader understands what meditation is. I don't think so.</s>MATALIN: That is absolutely contradicting the point you made earlier in this segment, which is if we could all sit around and come up with a list of things that we all agreed on, we all agreed -- mediation, reflection, prayer. What's wrong with...</s>LYNN: No, we don't. In fact, this moment of silence -- by the way, it says specifically in the legislative history of this law that you can't get up during this minute of silence. In other words, if you are an Islamic student, you can't move toward Mecca and pray quietly in your own way. If you're an Orthodox Jew who does not believe that silent prayer is heard by God, it is not respectful, it must be vocal, you don't get to do that. So this is discriminatory even amongst religions. But of course, this goes way...</s>PARSHALL: No, that would violate silence. That would violate silence.</s>LYNN: If you think this is about silence, then you believe in the tooth fairy. This is about bringing back organized government involvement in the religious activity that ought to be in the hands of -- guess who -- the parents of this country, not the state.</s>PARSHALL: I have a question for you. What prayer did the state -- the Virginia assembly say the kids had to pray? Come on, if it's state-endorsed and it's coercion, what</s>LYNN: They set the time and the manner of prayer, and took...</s>MATALIN: It's the one-minute religion.</s>LYNN: Yes, and isn't that a sad thing. The average Christian student has prayed long before he or she gets to that school, he's prayed probably with mom and dad over breakfast. The state of Virginia...</s>PARSHALL: But by cracky, when he gets to the school...</s>LYNN: ... is unnecessary to this process.</s>PARSHALL: ... leave it out...</s>MATALIN: All right.</s>PRESS: Right, separation of church and state.</s>MATALIN: All right. Let's all pray for a safe and happy holiday weekend, right.</s>LYNN: Absolutely.</s>MATALIN: Barry Lynn, thank you so much. Janet, keep the faith. Bill and I will be back with our own prayers on our closing comments. Stay with us on CROSSFIRE.</s>PRESS: OK, the debate doesn't end here. Barry Lynn and Janet Parshall will take your questions online right after the show at CNN.com/crossfire, and Monday night, Green Party presidential candidate Ralph Nader steps into the crossfire. Is he going to keep Al Gore from winning the presidency? Monday, 7:30 p.m. Eastern on CNN. You know, Mary, I'm not concerned about these state laws, because it's clear they're going to be struck down, and I'll tell you, because we Americans constitutionally are free to practice religion or not practice religion. We're also free not to have religion forced down our throat. And these laws on the Ten Commandments and the school prayer are unconstitutional.</s>MATALIN: You are hanging on to decades of moral relativism spawned by your party, which is why people are reaching out for religion, for spiritual grounding, for some kind of moral foundation after decades of relativism, and not to mention a term -- two terms of Clinton. I welcome it. The public welcomes it. And they will find a way to make it constitutionally...</s>PRESS: You are trying to say I'm anti-religion. I am not. I am for the separation of church and state. You can have both. From the left, I'm Bill Press. Good night for CROSSFIRE. Have a great weekend.</s>MATALIN: And from the right, I'm Mary Matalin. Have a safe weekend, and join us next week on CROSSFIRE.