CNN Source: Barr Has Said He's Considered Resigning Over Trump's Interference in DOJ Matters; Trump Flexes Pardon Power: Announces Clemency for High-Profile Felons Blagojevich, Kerik and Others
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon. We have got a busy hour coming up and here are tonight's big headlines. We're going to begin with the breaking news, a source telling CNN that the Attorney General Bill Barr says he has considered resigning over President Trump's interference with the DOJ, especially, no surprise, his tweets. Is he trying to send a message? The President declaring himself the nation's chief law enforcement officer, which might come as a surprise to Bill Barr, community the prison sentence, the President that is, of a former Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich, who was convicted of attempting to sell the Senate seat of Barack Obama. And pardoning among others, former NYPD Commissioner Bernard Kerik who was convicted of fraud and lying. Is Roger Stone next on the list? Democrats take to the debate stage in Nevada in less than 24 hours with just days to go until the Nevada caucuses. Two national polls show Bernie Sanders surging with double-digit leads. But those polls also show Michael Bloomberg's candidacy is on the rise among Democratic voters and he's going to take part in tomorrow night's debate. With the Democratic race heating up, what are Barack Obama's thoughts on the candidates and their positions? And as a nation's most influential Democrat, what role is he likely to play moving forward? Well, we're going to take a look at that. Plus, President Trump courting black voters and he may find some success. But why are African-Americans, for the most part, rock solid in their support for Democrats in the voting booth? We're going to get some answers in the hour ahead. We want to get right to our breaking news right now. CNN White House Correspondent Kaitlan Collins has the very latest on Bill Barr for us. Kaitlan.</s>KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Don, what we're being told tonight is that the Attorney General Bill Barr is telling people that he has considered resigning from his job if the President does not stop getting involved at matters at the Justice Department, namely pointing to the President's tweets, the ones that you saw from not only last week after that sentencing recommendation for Roger Stone, but also going through today, even after Bill Barr gave that remarkable interview where he essentially said that the President's tweets do not help him do his job and actually make doing his job harder. Something that President openly acknowledged today, when reporters asked him about it. The question, of course, and there are skeptics who are going to question Bill Barr's motives here because he is someone who people close to him described as extremely calculated. We know that he has had a tough time inside the Justice Department with the rank and file members. And you saw over 2,000 former federal prosecutors and Justice Department officials calling on him to resign after the Justice Department overruled the prosecutors on that recommendation. But what we also know from sources is that the tension between the President and Bill Barr over these tweets is real. Bill Barr has made this clear pretty privately as well as publicly to the President that the tweets do not help him do his job. But, of course, what people are going to say in response to that is that Bill Barr knew who the President was when he took this job. He knows he's a frequent tweeter. He knows he's someone who tweets about Justice Department and how his relationship with the last Attorney General ended as well. So, of course, the question is whether or not Bill Barr is actually willing to resign over this, whether or not it would actually come to that because the President is unlikely to stop tweeting. So if that is actually something that is going to drive him to resign from this job, that is something that still remains to be seen. But what we can say is that the tension here is real. We do know Bill Barr is at the White House and briefly for a few minutes at the same time as the President today and did have a previously scheduled lunch with the White House Counsel Pat Cipollone. And right now the Justice Department is saying he has no plans to resign, which of course is not a denial that he has told people he is considering doing so.</s>LEMON: Kaitlan Collins, thank you very much. All right. Joining me now, former Deputy Assistant Attorney General Harry Litman and former Federal Prosecutor Renato Mariotti. Hello, gentlemen. Welcome to the program. Renato, give me your reaction to this news. So now Barr cares about the DOJ's independence all of a sudden?</s>RENATO MARIOTTI, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I'll believe it when I see it. I don't believe that (inaudible) I certainly saw Barr move his lips and say that he didn't want Trump to tweet. But I don't really view that as more than him being upset that Trump is telling him what to do and it's making it too obvious that he's essentially doing Trump's betting. I think this is a smokescreen and Barr will be back to doing Trump's bidding soon enough.</s>LEMON: Do think he's delusional to think that he can get this president which no one has been able to do to stop tweeting, Renato.</s>MARIOTTI: I'm surprised if he's actually trying to convince Trump to do something. I don't really believe anyone can move him and I don't think Barr is foolish enough to think that. He's seems like a pretty clever guy to me.</s>LEMON: Harry, how much of this you think is because Barr is potentially facing a rebellion within the department?</s>HARRY LITMAN, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: Yes. I think that puts your finger on it. I take Renato's point, but I think it's a real indication of the depth, of the outbursts in the department, the possibility there would be more. I mean, the department is looking at actual sort of paralysis, 2,000 former prosecutors, all of the judges, that would be a very hard thing for Barr to have on his watch. And, well, I take the point that he's, as Laura Ingraham put it on another channel, say, don't worry, I got this. He'll still do what Trump wants. I do think he's trying to push back and his hope - I agree also whether or not you can't make him stop completely, but the goal and this is why he sat down with Cipollone, who's his acolyte, by the way, and he hopes can influence Trump is to try to get him to do it less in the context of specific cases, specific judges, specific sentencing. We'll see if it works. But that's his hope, because that's what really puts them between a rock and a hard place.</s>LEMON: All right, let's take a listen to the President. This is earlier today.</s>DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm actually, I guess, the chief law enforcement officer of the country.</s>LEMON: OK. So Renato, the President has been called out by former Justice Department officials, he is frustrated with the DOJ. Is this just a way of showing that he is the boss. He's like, listen, he's the chief law enforcement officer, shouldn't Bill Barr - hey, wait, buddy.</s>MARIOTTI: Yes. Well, not only that, look, we saw Trump saying I have the authority to get involved in investigations. He said that recently. Trump likes to think that he's all powerful. He said that Article Two lets him do whatever he wants. And frankly, I think, he doesn't like being told that there's things he can't do. He doesn't like being told that there are limits to his power. I think that this is his way of expressing that.</s>LEMON: Yes. So listen, Harry, we have to get to the President's 11 pardons and commutations today.</s>LITMAN: Yes.</s>LEMON: What's going on here? Is he trying to send a message and what is that message?</s>LITMAN: I think they're exactly have a piece with the Stone debacle. Yes, his power is strong and plenary, but all presidents have exercised it in ways and procedures designed to be fair. And here, Trump has completely bulldozed the pardon attorney, all the regulations, the applications you make, the showing that you're contrived and you've changed her life. All of that, he's jettison to just basically pick whom, guys he kind of likes that sort of are good old Trump guys.</s>LEMON: Yes.</s>LITMAN: And so that kind of exercise of the power by fiat and caprice, he may assert that he can do it, but it's anathema to how it's always been exercised. And of course, it doesn't at all take into account how like Blagojevich and Kerik, how they compare with the 10s of thousands, many of them black and brown, of course, defendants who are right now in federal prison. Their kids don't like seeing them in orange jumpsuits either. Trump doesn't think about that. He just goes to his guys.</s>LEMON: Yes. But, Harry, we're talking about people convicted of fraud, of extortion, false statements. People in Trump's orbit have been accused or convicted of similar charges. Is he trying to desensitize the public to more pardons, potentially Roger Stone, Paul Manafort, Michael Flynn?</s>LITMAN: Yes. Right. So look, that's a theory. I see that is happening if it happens after the election and he'll do it if he wants to. But I really think these are the guys - you're 100 percent right, they're sort of in his own image. They're not only corrupt, but they're unapologetic and they're high status guys who do whatever they want. I think the bigger thing is he thinks it'll play well with the base and these the guys he wants to exercise this power on. Is it may be softening the ground for the Stones and Manaforts? Yes. But I see that it's coming in awhile anyway and I think he's got - he wants to do it, because he wanted to do it.</s>LEMON: Renato, here is the former Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich, what he said in NBC. We called him Blago when I worked in Chicago.</s>LITMAN: Right.</s>LEMON: This is him heading home to Chicago after his pardon, watch.</s>ROD BLAGOJEVICH, FORMER ILLINOIS GOVERNOR: I want to express my most profound and everlasting gratitude to President Trump. He's got like, obviously, a big fan in me and if you're asking me what my party affiliation is, I'm a Trump-ocrat.</s>LEMON: Shocking to see his gray hair - this big head of black hair, but now it's all gray. That's just what President Trump will want to hear. But what about the people Chicago, what do they think of Blagojevich?</s>MARIOTTI: Rod Blagojevich is the one person who's managed to unite Illinois Republicans and Illinois Democrats. We literally had the Governor who's a Democratic and the entire Republican congressional delegation condemning this move today. Blago is pretty much disliked by everyone across the spectrum here in Illinois. I think people want to see less of him. He's somebody, you said, people in Trump's image. Blago is someone very much in Trump's image and that he sort of lived in his alternative reality where he's still (going adding). Now that he's out of prison, he's still trying to win over voters and build a base of support. He's sort of living in his own universe and here he's pretty much hated around here.</s>LEMON: Renato, the selling of the seat was just the topping on the sundae. I mean I remember all of the other reporting and stuff that he did when he was Governor. I mean, yes, it is Chicago politics, Illinois politics season, whatever. All right. Thank you both. I appreciate it.</s>LITMAN: Thanks. Thanks Renato.</s>LEMON: In less than 24 hours, Michael Bloomberg will be on the debate stage for the first time in the 2020 race. He's been on a roll lately, but how will he do against more seasoned candidates? We shall see.