Interview with Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee
WHITFIELD: All right. Welcome back with this breaking news. Virginia Governor Ralph Northam says he now believes it is not him in a racist photo taken for his yearbook while in medical school and that he has no recollection of taking it. However, that image is on his page as a 25-year-old in medical school. I'm joined again by Larry Sabato and David Swerdlick. Thankfully, I think I'm going to be able to hear you now.</s>SABATO: Ok.</s>SWERDLICK: Ok.</s>WHITFIELD: So this is very perplexing because the governor last night made reference to the photo of him -- Larry. And then today we understand the governor to be in the mansion and he has taken many phone calls from friends, from allies within the political sphere there in Virginia and beyond urging him to step down. And thus far we are seeing that he wants to hold onto his seat but now the explanation has changed, Larry -- that he is not in that photo, that that photo is not a representation of him, even though he mentioned that photo in his statement last night. So how much of this is also a microcosm or some sort of representation of where Virginians believe they are, you know. And we're talking about just over 30 years in which this photograph, this depiction is on display and this is now just over a year, barely two years after Charlottesville which led to the death of a woman and on display, white supremacy, a lot of hate.</s>SWERDLICK: Right.</s>SABATO: Yes. But I think people understand that Virginians are very sensitive to this issue and should be. We all know the history of the Civil War, Virginia's role in it. We all know Jim Crow and Virginia's role in it. Tragically, Virginia got worse rather than better. It led the Southern Manifesto, it led massive resistance to school desegregation in the 1950s, which I was born in 1952, so there are a lot of us still around who remember pieces of those massive resistance. This is a highly sensitive subject. And probably more so than most states Virginians react very negatively to a photo like that which is just mind boggling. You know, I'm sure the governor is under a lot of pressure. We have a hard time understanding this. We think of this whole thing as bizarre and we are just observers. Imagine if you're governor and in a matter of hours -- this just started late yesterday afternoon --</s>SWERDLICK: Last night, right.</s>SABATO: -- in a matter of hours, everybody you know is talking about your resignation.</s>WHITFIELD: Yes.</s>SABATO: I'm sure it is mind blowing.</s>WHITFIELD: Yes. And David --</s>SWERDLICK: Yes.</s>WHITFIELD: -- he's a pediatrician. He was studying to be a pediatrician at the time. And if you are black and if you are a patient or perhaps any number of your children were to be treated by Dr. Northam at the time and now learning of this, you know, a very short space between being a practicing physician, of all people, and a photo like this while he was in medical school. I mean what are people to think? What is his lieutenant governor, a descendant of slaves, to think? People who served with him, who went to school with him at VMI -- what are they to think now?</s>SWERDLICK: Right.</s>WHITFIELD: Is this incredibly mind boggling or were there other displays that are tantamount to the image here?</s>SWERDLICK: Yes, Fred -- that's one of the things that's so difficult about this situation is that people are left wondering do I really know this person. Look, I sit here, I don't consider myself in a position to judge what is in Governor Northam's heart. Only he knows that. And when I listened to his apology last night, it sounded sincere, and fulsome last night. But then there's this confusion this morning about him saying whether or not he's even in the photo, even though last night he suggested strongly that he was one of those people. Here is what we do know -- Fred. We know that someone who's 25 is not a kid, certainly not in 1984. That was a grown man in medical school who, if he was in the photo, if -- he made a decision to dress up in either blackface or in a Klan hood. That's number one. Number two is -- and I know I keep harping on this point but I want to emphasize it -- it's about, it is not about the personal, it is about the position of public trust that he is in. If he was in that photo, his friends, his neighbors don't have to shun him. His medical patients can make their own decisions about whether they still want him to treat them. But when you're talking about being the governor of a state, a state that just this month honored in the legislature Robert E. Lee, which seems to me again a problem with separating personal views with people in a position of public trust. That's the problem I think that Governor Northam faces. Can he be seen by all of the people of Virginia to be an honest broker on issues, particularly when it comes to race and all of the things that affects in the administration of his government?</s>WHITFIELD: Right. And again, I would like us to cue up, my producers if you can hear -- to cue up the apology from last night. Be in position to play that. That in contrast with what CNN is now reporting based on a conversation, a source having a conversation with him about no recollection of, you know, that photo -- that photo not being a representation of him. We need to have that at the ready. David Swerdlick, Larry Sabato -- ok, hold it -- we do have that apology. Let's listen to it one more time.</s>NORTHAM: That photo and the racist and offensive attitudes it represents does not reflect that person I am today or the way that I have conducted myself as a soldier, a doctor, and public servant. I'm deeply sorry.</s>WHITFIELD: All right. So Larry and David -- real quick, you know, your sentiments on that. There is criticism coming from lots of corners that that just didn't go far enough. There is an acknowledgment that he makes of that photo, but then saying it doesn't reflect the person I am today. That in contrast now with the governor, according to a source telling CNN, that he says, you know, he wasn't in that photo. That photo is not of an image of him -- Larry.</s>SABATO: Well, you can't reconcile all of these pieces. And actually, there's a new dimension now of integrity. What is the truth? I mean we know all of the problems with President Trump and the White House, but there's still a separate and I'd like to think higher standard in other places that people in positions of major responsibility have the obligation to tell the truth, especially on important matters and involving them directly. So this is beyond strange. I can believe in evolution of one's racial views over the course of decades, though hiding this for all these decades doesn't help. What I have a hard time understanding is how he could evolve from a position of acknowledging that the picture was of him last night and then this morning saying no, I wasn't even there. I don't remember it at all.</s>WHITFIELD: Yes.</s>SABATO: Something is terribly wrong.</s>WHITFIELD: Right.</s>SWERDLICK: Right.</s>WHITFIELD: And you mentioned the President, we have not heard from the President. He has not commented as far as we know on this. However, presidential candidates have and have all, those who have spoken out, have all said he needs to step down. David -- at what point must the President comment on this as well?</s>SWERDLICK: Well, the President of the United States should be the moral leader of the country and should be able to arbitrate these kind of issues or at least weigh in and provide some clarity, even if American citizens are going to make up their own minds. We'll see whether President Trump weighs in on this. I agree with Larry, what he said a moment ago. I believe people can change and I don't doubt that Ralph Northam believes he is a much different person than he was 35 years ago, but if he was one of the people on that picture, I think it's going to be hard for him to hang on to his office.</s>WHITFIELD: All right. David Swerdlick, Larry Sabato -- thank you so much for now. I know I'll be talking with you again very soon.</s>SWERDLICK: Sure.</s>SABATO: Thanks.</s>WHITFIELD: All right. Here also with me now -- a Democrat from Texas and member of the House Homeland Security Committee, Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee. Thank you so much, Congresswoman for being available today. So what are your thoughts on Governor Northam and his apology or statement last night and then today, according to a source saying, he is not even in that photograph.</s>REP. SHEILA JACKSON LEE (D), TEXAS: Well, Fredricka -- I have to reflect on my own experience as a graduate of the University of Virginia law school and recognizing the history that the state of Virginia has really passed through over the decades and centuries. Certainly in the last century, it was the state that had the segregated schools. And yet it also had the first African-American governor, Doug Wilder.</s>WHITFIELD: Doug Wilder.</s>JACKSON LEE: What I would say is this is an issue of whether or not this governor can lead this state that is going through such a tumultuous history of segregation, racism and divisiveness. But it's healed itself and has come to a point of not only electing this governor and governors before but electing now an African-American lieutenant governor. And the real question has to be as to whether or not this governor can lead this state, whether or not he can heal this state. And if that is not the answer or the answer does not come back that he can, then I would think that the governor would do the right thing as many of his colleagues in the state of Virginia, congressional delegation has asked him to do, is to do the right thing. I think that that is what he should reflect on as he makes his decision.</s>WHITFIELD: If the state Democratic Party is condemning this photograph and asking him to step down, if the NAACP is asking him to step down. There are a widespread contingent, you know, of entities that are asking him to step down. And if he refuses to do so, how in your view would he be able to continue to govern without that support, even if his policies are popular with Virginians, would he be able to continue governing knowing that Virginians are happy with his policies, but perhaps people are not happy with this image or this depiction of his history?</s>JACKSON LEE: You know, Fredricka -- that is the real question because it is noted that he's had good policies. I think what is baffling is the existence of the picture, the age of the individuals -- they were grown persons, I assume grown men. And if he is one of those persons, they go at the very core of hurt for the African-American community and those who are empathetic. And that's the question I have asked. Can you heal your state? Can you stand on the history of the state of which they have moved past? I mean this is the same state that at my campus two years ago individuals when I say the University of Virginia campus, individuals came and acted in the most ugliest of fashions, the most horrid of fashions calling out names of African-American Jews and others in a hateful manner. And that had to be healed. And I can tell you that by the citing of that as one of the more horrific racial incidences around the nation, the history of the nation, it is still something that pierces people's heart. Can this governor lead this state in the healing process that I know is still going on? I would say as others have said to the governor that do the right thing and it might be that he would have to not be in office.</s>WHITFIELD: All right. Now let's take a very difficult turn, that to the showdown over the President's border wall. President Trump, you know, now growing seemingly frustrated with the negotiation process, lashing out at House Speaker Nancy Pelosi in this latest interview with CBS. Listen.</s>DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, I think that she was very rigid which I would expect but I think she's very bad for our country. She knows that you need a barrier. She knows that we need border security. She wanted to win a political point. I happen to think it is very bad politics because basically she wants open borders. She doesn't mind human trafficking or she wouldn't do this because you know --</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She offered you over a billion dollars for border security.</s>TRUMP: Excuse me?</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She offered over a billion dollars for border security. She doesn't want the wall.</s>TRUMP: She's costing the country hundreds of billions of dollars because what's happening is when you have a porous border and when you have drugs pouring in and when you have people dying all over the country because of people like Nancy Pelosi who don't want to give proper border security for political reasons, she's doing a terrible disservice to our country.</s>WHITFIELD: So Congresswoman -- there's a lot of blame there. That doesn't say respect or willingness to work together. So is he essentially sign-posting that he is moving in the direction of declaring a national emergency; that he is bypassing any hope of negotiations of a bill that he would sign?</s>JACKSON LEE: Well, Fredricka, first of all, let me say that the words were shameful and inappropriate for a commander in chief. The Speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi, is third in line to the presidency. I wish the President would read his constitution. And she has every right to lead the Congress, to lead the House on views that she has. As she speaks, appropriators are working to find a resolution -- those who are on the Homeland Security Appropriations Committee as I'm on the Homeland Security Authorizing (ph) Committee, Fredricka -- I have been to the border more times than I can imagine over the two decades that I served. I know every aspect of the border -- those areas that you have no ability if you will to put barriers or fencing, those areas that are on private land, those areas that face the Rio Grande. What we are saying is we want to be appropriate, thoughtful, and listen to the experts dealing with the question. The President wants a fight. He only wants to be political. He doesn't have any guardrail of leadership that allow him to sit down and understand to do the best plan. Let me tell you what the President --</s>WHITFIELD: But he has changed his jargon a few times --</s>JACKSON LEE: Pardon me.</s>WHITFIELD: -- he has changed his jargon in that he'll say ok, if not a wall, then a fence, a barrier, et cetera. Kind of all encompassing. Does that make a difference?</s>JACKSON LEE: But he has said all those things, he has thrown them all up against the wall and then he comes right back again and says forget about it, I'm going to do an emergency order which has certain criteria which includes a national emergency, using the military, and it indicates that the country is in jeopardy, which we are not. And so no -- he does not stick to all of the above. It is, there are at the border all of the above. Go to the border. There are barriers, there are steel fencing, if you will, there's the Rio Grande. He doesn't say that. But let me say what he doesn't say as well. He cost the nation $11 billion in the shutdown. The Democrats, leadership in the Democrats of the House voted on HR 79 and said that we won't do that. We don't believe in that. We don't believe in holding federal workers hostages. We also raised their pay, which this president who feigns respect for the federal work force and the border patrol agents and border protection cut their wages by an executive order. We raised their wages by 2.6 percent. So this president doesn't have a moral guardrail. We don't know what he stands for. We are working every day -- one, not to shut the government down, to present a plan that I hope reasonable people in the White House, chief of staff and others will look at this plan and tell the President the best thing he needs to do is to sign this plan, this appropriation, and open the government and pay the people. There is no understanding of what the President stands for except name-calling and I can assure him that the Speaker of the House is a fighter against human trafficking, is a strong supporter for smart border security, has provided a pathway for her appropriators to fund as much as possible to make this nation safe. And it has been safe with Democrats in leadership, focusing on how to safely secure the government without throwing things against the wall and saying anything and then coming back again and telling the appropriators and legislators no, I'm going to order an emergency order. That's not the way to go. If he does it, we'll sue him.</s>WHITFIELD: -- the way it's going thus far, are you seeing another shutdown on the horizon?</s>JACKSON LEE: I do not. I have said to my constituents that that will not be the way we will go, whatever process we have to use to ensure that this president does not contribute to THE shutting down of the government.</s>WHITFIELD: Ok.</s>JACKSON LEE: We will continue to work, continue to negotiate for the American people.</s>WHITFIELD: All right. Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee. Thank you so much. Appreciate it.</s>JACKSON LEE: Thank you for having me. Thank you.</s>WHITFIELD: Both the U.S. and Russia are pulling out of a nuclear arms treaty that has been keeping the peace since the Cold War. We'll go live to Moscow and hear why the Kremlin may already be gearing up for a new arms race.