Supreme Court Hears Arguments over Trump's Financial Records
KATE BOLDUAN, CNN HOST: At Supreme Court today historic cases conducted under historic circumstances. For the first time ever the public was able to listen live as the justices heard arguments via conference call due to the pandemic, of course. The cases were also some of the most high-profile this term hitting at the heart of presidential powers. Putting it simply, should Congress has have access to the president's tax returns and how does presidential immunity extend to a criminal investigation. The President's attorney pushing hard today that the President should be granted what he called quote, temporary immunity. Listen.</s>JUSTICE SONIA SOTOMAYOR, UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT: You're asking for a broader immunity than anyone else gets.</s>JAY SEKULOW, DONALD TRUMP'S ATTORNEY: Well, we're asking for a temporary --</s>CHIEF JUSTICE JOHN ROBERTS, UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT: Do you have time for a brief answer, counsel?</s>SEKULOW: I will. We're asking for temporary presidential immunity.</s>JUSTICE ELENA KAGAN, UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT: You've said that a number of times and made the point which we have made that presidents can't be treated just like an ordinary citizen but it is also true and indeed a fundamental precept of our constitutional order that the President isn't above the law.</s>BOLDUAN: Joining me right now CNN chief legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin and CNN legal analyst Elie Honig. Jeff, let me start with you. You think the most important moment during questioning was straight off the top why?</s>JEFF TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: Well, because Chief Justice Roberts who I expect will probably be a swing vote here, he seemed to recognize that there is now way the President could be completely immune from any sort of scrutiny either from Congress or in the second case from a subpoena from the New York City -- the Manhattan District Attorney. But the question is what is the standard? What kind of subpoenas are allowed? Can the Congress, can a district attorney go into anything or what are the limits and that balance of rejecting the absolute claim from the -- from the President's lawyers, but not giving carte blanche to the prosecutors, that's the balance that I think they'll try to strike here.</s>BOLDUAN: And Elie, what is at stake here for folks? Does one case impact the other, are the outcomes intertwined?</s>ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, Kate, there's definitely a relationship here. But these cases it's important to understand are really about much more than just Donald Trump's tax returns. This really is a constitutional balance of powers showdown and we heard it today. Is the President meaningfully accountable to Congress and to prosecutors? And I think, I agree with Jeffrey, it was interesting hearing the President's lawyers try to defend this extreme position. In that clip we heard when Jay Sekulow is talking about temporary immunity, he means temporary while in office of the President. And that's an extreme position and you could hear the Justices sort of hammering on that and the lawyers struggling to defend it.</s>BOLDUAN: Jeffrey, the fact that -- go ahead.</s>TOOBIN: If I could just -- well aside from the principle and obviously the legal principles are very important, this is about the tax returns. Donald Trump has been talking about releasing his tax returns since he declared for president in 2015. He has hid these tax returns unlike every presidential candidate since the 1970s for now five years. And the question may be answered by this case, what's in the tax returns? And it may be answered quickly. Now it may not be answered quickly. But the idea that the tax returns are now this close to being released is actually a very significant thing independent of the legal arguments here.</s>BOLDUAN: And something that you know that Donald Trump cares very deeply about, how it all went today. And the fact, Jeffrey, that this case, which is so consequential, but that the oral arguments are happening in a way that they have never have before. What impact do you think -- do you think the impact of just the structure, that the Justices aren't -- they're not able to talk to each other. They're not able to see each other, just the way it had to be conducted. Do you think it impacts it?</s>TOOBIN: You know, to be honest, I don't think it really will matter that much in the outcome. As someone who has followed the Supreme Court for a long time, it's a very weird experience to hear the court this way. Just one oddity of all this is I think many people know that Clarence Thomas in the courtroom, you know, goes years without answering questions. In the telephone arguments, where the justices go one at a time, the Chief Justice calls on them one at a time, Clarence Thomas is asking lots of questions. I don't know such a big distinction between telephone arguments and real-life arguments but it's just a big difference. Does that matter in the outcome? I sort of doubt it. But it's still just interesting given how the court has evolved.</s>BOLDUAN: We now realize that he had stage fright when he is in front of other people. Maybe that's just simply what it is, Jeffrey, maybe the premise of another book, Jeffrey Toobin. Let me ask you, Elie, well, maybe both of you, if you could quickly give me a sense after listening to oral arguments today. Do you have a sense of which way the Justices are leaning, Elie, first to you.</s>HONIG: Yes, so, what I noticed is that the four traditionally liberal Justices, Ginsburg, Sotomayor, Breyer and Kagan were really dug in. They were really committed. They did not seem to giving any ground whatsoever. They seemed set on holding up these subpoenas. The four conservative, traditionally conservative Justices did seem to be a little bit uneasy with some of the positions that were being taken. And I think Chief Justice Roberts is desperately trying to find middle ground. I do think both of these cases ultimately are going to come out against the President. I think especially the case involving the Manhattan D.A. I think we could see an 8-1, 9-0 ruling upholding that subpoena against Donald Trump.</s>BOLDUAN: Jeffrey, do you think they'd punt?</s>TOOBIN: It may be something where they send the case back to the lower courts even if Trump loses. And in that case that might mean a delay until after the election. And even if Trump loses the case, but if he manages to keep the tax returns secret until after the election, that's a win.</s>BOLDUAN: Yes, guys, great to see you. Thank you. Still ahead for us. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi unveils a sweeping new coronavirus relief bill. The price tag and the pushback it's already getting from Republicans. We'll be right back.