Goodbye from the Gang of Five
ANNOUNCER: From Washington,</s>THE CAPITAL GANG. AL HUNT, HOST: I'm Al Hunt, with the full gang for the final time: Mark Shields, Robert Novak, Kate O'Beirne and Margaret Carlson. Democrats stepped up criticism of the war in Iraq, with Senator Ted Kennedy again calling for Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld to resign.</s>SEN. EDWARD M. KENNEDY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: I think the American people deserve better. They deserve competency and they deserve the facts. In baseball, it's three strikes, you're out. What is it for the secretary of defense?</s>HUNT: The commanding general in Iraq was asked whether he agreed with Vice President Dick Cheney that the insurgency is in its "last throes."</s>GEN. JOHN ABIZAID, CMDR., U.S. CENTRAL COMMAND: There's a lot of work to be done against the insurgency.</s>SEN. CARL LEVIN (D-MI), ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE: It doesn't sound to me from your testimony or any other testimony here this morning that it is in its last throes, but...</s>ABIZAID: I'm sure you'll forgive me from criticizing the vice president.</s>HUNT: Meanwhile, Republican Senator Robert Bennett met with the president and discussed his embattled Social Security plan.</s>SEN. ROBERT BENNETT (R-UT), DEPUTY MAJORITY WHIP: I will be proposing a bill that does not include personal accounts. And the president's aware of that. He indicated that I should go forward and do that.</s>HUNT: Hey, Bob, is President Bush in deep trouble on both Iraq and Social Security?</s>BOB NOVAK, CAPITAL GANG: Oh, I think he's in trouble on Iraq. This war goes on. I think one of his great assets is Teddy Kennedy, with his nastiness and saying -- calling him on to quit. That's just childish. Nobody likes that. But when Dick Cheney says it's in its last throes and General Abizaid can't agree with him, that's a difficulty. It is a problem. Now, the -- I think they have really mishandled the Social Security question. They should have had a plan out there. And the latest fiasco was Senator Bennett came and says, We're not going to have personal accounts, and the president says to everybody, whether he's listening or not, Just go ahead and continue what you're doing. And he doesn't mean his banning personal accounts. They're still trying. But the odds are pretty bad. So I'd say that on those two issues, this is not a good time for the president. But there's ups and downs in every presidency, and this is one of the down times.</s>HUNT: Two biggest issues around, though, Margaret, aren't they?</s>MARGARET CARLSON, CAPITAL GANG: Right. And Senator Kennedy isn't the president's concern, it's Republicans and General Abizaid and other generals who haven't been as outspoken, who've been in Iraq and who know that it's not a public relations problem, which the White House made it out to be -- the president is now going to go around the country selling the Iraq war, the way he tried to sell Social Security. And they may both end up the same way. It's not going well, and everyone knows it. And the first step to making it go better is for the president to acknowledge the problem that's there with the insurgency, to armor the troops, to send more troops, and to somehow fix the Iraqi army, which has been infiltrated, and everyone knows it because they have found the fingerprints of Iraqi soldiers on the IEDs along the road.</s>HUNT: Do you see any glimmer of light here, Kate O'Beirne?</s>KATE O'BEIRNE, CAPITAL GANG: Well, every general who testified this week said they have a really tough job on their hands, but they are seeing progress. Every one of them said that. Even putting aside the typically defeatist attitude on the part of too many liberals, I do think it's so that the public, given the heart-breaking losses we're seeing every week -- the public does wonder whether or not a free and democratic Iraq is worth the cost if they don't see it firmly connected to America's national interest. And that's the case the president has to keep making. John McCain made that case, Rudy Giuliani and the president at the Republican convention. It moved public opinion. But that's the burden of the administration. The public will understand sacrifices are worth it as long as our own national security is seen at issue, and I think that's something the administration hasn't done enough of.</s>HUNT: Just a problem of communications, Mark?</s>MARK SHIELDS, CAPITAL GANG: I think it's deeper than that, Al, and President Bush is in trouble. And I guess where I dissent from Kate's observation is there have been no calls to sacrifice. The only people sacrificing are those in uniform and their loved ones, and everybody else, it's just painless, ouchless patriotism. And profitable, as well. Al, the very qualities that got George Bush reelected -- the sense of strength and the sense that George -- that John Kerry represented risk, both to the culture of the country and internationally to the war on terrorism -- right now, George Bush has come to represent risk. His Social Security plan is seen as too risky. The Iraq war plan is altogether risky. And Americans are really questioning deeply and profoundly. This is an anti-war movement with no leadership. There's no Moveon.org. There's no Ben Spock or George McGovern at the head of it. This is coming right up from the grass roots, which has to make...</s>HUNT: Let me just say one thing, Bob, and I want you to pick up on it, because you have reported several times, and I think quite accurately, that there was a strong sentiment within parts of this administration to begin an orderly withdrawal. It seems to me now that that is an option, that their option is either to do that, at which point, I think, Iraq may well go into chaos, or not to do that, at which point, you're going to have more and more Republicans, like Walter Jones, say, Wait a minute. You have real problems. Am I exaggerating the dilemma?</s>NOVAK: Well, I think -- I would not use the word "go into chaos." I believe it's going to be very difficult for them. The Iraqis have -- it's an artificial country. They have a lot of difficulties, and it's not our responsibility -- I don't believe that that is the win-or-lose thing in the -- in the war against terrorism. I'd like to make two points, though. Mark, I think this country is built on risk. You take a risk in your life when you -- when you went into journalism at an advanced age, and you've been very successful, and you -- risk paid off. The risk -- every -- this is -- Americans are risk-prone, not risk-averse. And I hope they still are. And secondly, I -- what bothers me -- I'm not an enthusiast of this war, but I sure as hell hope they do well. I just get a feeling from lot of Democrats and a lot of liberals that they are rejoicing that this -- that they think this is a quagmire. The think it's a political advantage.</s>HUNT: Is that what's happening, Margaret?</s>CARLSON: That is so untrue. I think during the campaign, there was some -- well, look at how Iraq is going. Let's change leadership. But that is gone. No one is rejoicing because there's no alternative to winning. I think it will be utter chaos. We went to war on a theory, and now -- of democratizing a place -- Mark, by the way, put his profession at risk. He didn't put other people's lives at risk.</s>HUNT: How...</s>O'BEIRNE: There is an alternative...</s>HUNT: Just quickly -- how long will we...</s>O'BEIRNE: There is an alternative to...</s>HUNT: ... be there, Kate?</s>O'BEIRNE: There is an alternative to winning, unfortunately. We could lose the will, and therefore lose. Our commitment isn't by any means endless, but this president has resolved -- and I think when he continues to remind the American public about our own national security interests -- to do everything in our power -- ultimately, it is up to the Iraqis, but we will not cut and run too soon!</s>HUNT: Final Iraq thought, Mark.</s>SHIELDS: I know Bob, who -- does not refer to anybody on this panel -- I know him too well for that. But I would quote to him the -- General Anthony Zinni, the former four-star Marine general, who said, This is like the chateau generals of World War II, who continued to send their own troops out to be slaughtered because of a political mistake. You don't pay -- the politicians don't pay for the mistake, the troops pay for it in blood.</s>HUNT: Coming up next on</s>CAPITAL GANG: Old-fashioned Chicago political arm-twisting brings a Dick Durbin apology.