Trump: GOP Delegate System 'Rigged, Crooked'; Cruz Expects to Win in Contested Convention
JAKE TAPPER: That's it for "THE LEAD." I'm Jake Tapper turning you over now to one Mr. Wolf Blitzer in THE SITUATION ROOM. Thanks for watching.</s>WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Happening now: rigged system? Donald Trump returning to the campaign trail. After several days off, he's now lashing out at the GOP, calling the delegate selection process rigged and comparing himself to Bernie Sanders. We're standing by to hear what Trump will say next at a rally that's about to get under way. Gestapo tactics. Trump's convention manager goes even further than his boss, accusing Ted Cruz of using Gestapo tactics to win all of Colorado's delegates. John Kasich says Cruz used strong-arm tactics in Michigan. Is Cruz playing by the rules? And what strategies are all of the GOP campaigns using right now in New York? Supporting vigilantes. Fresh fighting on the Democratic side, with Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders hitting each other over experience, qualifications and judgment. Now Clinton is attacking Sanders' immigration record, saying he was reporting vigilantes instead of voting for immigration reform. Is the new harsh tone working out there on the campaign trail? And can Sanders overcome Hillary Clinton's lead in New York? And un-burden. A top espionage official defects from the Kim Jong-un regime, leaving the spy agency that's behind numerous kidnappings, assassinations and the cyber-attack on Sony Pictures. Will he reveal some of North Korea's most closely guarded secrets? I'm Wolf Blitzer. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM. We're following the race for the White House and a bitter back-and- forth between the Trump and Cruz campaigns. Donald Trump's convention manager now accusing Ted Cruz of using, quote, "Gestapo tactics" to win all 34 delegates in the Colorado primary; and Trump himself is calling the system rigged and crooked. We'll be listening to hear what else he has to say at a rally tonight in New York, where the primary is now just eight days away. We're also following what could be a devastating breach for North Korean dictator, Kim Jong-un. We're just learning that a top intelligence officer from the country's notorious spy agency defected, and he's now in South Korea's hands, possibly revealing details of kidnappings, assassinations and cyber-attacks carried out by the Kim Jong-un regime. We're covering all of that and much more this hour with our guests, including Trump campaign national spokeswoman, Katrina Pierson. And our correspondents and expert analysts, they are also standing by with fast-moving developments on these fast-moving stories. Let's begin with our CNN political reporter, Sara Murray. She's in Albany, New York, with the Trump campaign for us. Sara, Trump is holding a rally there in a little while. Is he expected to keep hammering away at this idea that the Republican Party's nomination process is rigged?</s>SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, that's certainly what we will be listening for. Donald Trump has touted himself as this fantastic manager, negotiator, the kind of guy who will surround himself with smart people if he's elected. Now that he's getting out-organized on the ground by Ted Cruz in a number of states, he is protesting and, in true Trump style, he is doing it very loudly.</s>DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Because nobody knows the system better than me.</s>MURRAY (voice-over): From immigration to campaign finance to his own bankruptcies, Donald Trump has always said he knows how to work the system. And he'll work it from the White House.</s>TRUMP: And one of the things I always say, I know the best negotiators.</s>MURRAY: But up against the complex process of wrangling delegates, Trump is coming up short and crying foul.</s>TRUMP: What we have going is a movement. So what they're trying to do is subvert the movement with crooked shenanigans, all right? And we're just not going to let it happen.</s>MURRAY: Even warning the Republican Party that voters might revolt.</s>TRUMP: And I say this to the RNC, and I say it to the Republican Party: You're going to have a big problem, folks, because there are people that don't like what's going on.</s>SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: God bless the great state of Colorado.</s>TRUMP: After being shut out of the delegate chase by Ted Cruz in Colorado this weekend, Trump's new convention manager is likening Cruz's campaign tactics to those of Nazi Germany's secret police.</s>PAUL MANAFORT, TRUMP CONVENTION MANAGER: You go to these county convention and you see the tactic -- Gestapo tactics.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Gestapo tactics? That's a strong word.</s>MURRAY: Today Cruz swatted back.</s>CRUZ: Donald has been yelling and screaming, a lot of whining, and the latest thing he's seized upon is, when people vote against him, they're stealing the election. It's a really odd notion. What is this democracy of which you speak?</s>MURRAY: The Texas senator feeling increasingly confident and arguing, if the convention goes beyond one ballot, he'll emerge victorious.</s>CRUZ: If we go into a contested convention, we're going to have a ton of delegates. And let me tell you, in that scenario, I think we will go in with an overwhelming advantage.</s>MURRAY: Today Cruz jokingly wondering how Trump had even made it this far.</s>CRUZ (via phone): A lot of people have speculated that, when he launched the campaign, it was -- it was on a lark, and that he suddenly found himself surprised that, you know, his brand of reality television attracted a lot of attention.</s>MURRAY: Meanwhile, Trump is facing blowback from Boston after "The Globe's" editorial board published this faux front page, declaring "Deportations to begin under president Trump." Sunday night, Trump shot back.</s>TRUMP: The whole front page is a make-believe story, which is really no different from the whole paper for the whole thing.</s>MURRAY: Now, Wolf, we know the Trump campaign wants to avoid a contested convention. They want to show up in Cleveland with 1,237 delegates, but there are a number of contests coming up where these unbound delegates are going to be at play once again. And we will see if Donald Trump can get a little bit more organized with the help of his new convention manager -- Wolf.</s>BLITZER: All right, Sara. Thanks very much. Sara is in Albany, New York. Let's get some more on the Cruz campaign right now. CNN's Sunlen Serfaty is joining us from Irvine in California. Sunlen, it's going to be an all-out battle between Cruz and Trump, certainly, when California holds its primary in early June.</s>SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Wolf. And Ted Cruz holding his first rally here in California, already looking ahead to June 7, as you noted -- noted. That is the last primary on the nominating schedule. And Ted Cruz really today making a big point to play up how pivotal he sees California, telling the voters here, this crowd, saying that they could decide the nomination and potentially lead the way towards a path forward and, really, make a big point of sending a message to the nation beyond California. So interesting comments from Ted Cruz today. He also, of course, did launch into a long and mocking critique of Donald Trump's complaints over the rules of the delegate nomination process, to make a point over his own campaign's strength. Here is more of what he had to say here today.</s>CRUZ: Now, in response, Donald has been yelling and screaming.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Whining, not winning.</s>CRUZ: A lot of whining. I'm sure some cursing. And some late-night fevered tweeting. All the characteristics, I would note, we would want of a commander in chief. And the latest thing he seized upon is when people vote against him, they're stealing the election. It's a really odd notion. "What is this democracy of which you speak? Wait, wait, you mean voters get to vote? No, no, no, no, no. No, no, no."</s>SERFATY: And to that point, the Cruz campaign across the board really did seem to be playing up their organizational strength, not only here in California but across the country, touting from the stage a series of statewide endorsements here in California. Also, you heard Senator Cruz there talking about it and the co-chair of his campaign from the stage here just a short while ago, saying that they are the only campaign that's already prepared, that's already organized for the state to be one that greatly matters now in this nominating process, Wolf.</s>BLITZER: Thanks very much. Sunlen Serfaty reporting for us. So let's get some more on all of this. The national spokeswoman for the Trump campaign, Katrina Pierson, is joining us. Katrina, thanks very much for joining us.</s>KATRINA PIERSON, NATIONAL SPOKESWOMAN FOR TRUMP CAMPAIGN: Thank you, Wolf.</s>BLITZER: You just heard, in Sunlen's piece, the Cruz campaign is openly saying that a contested convention is their best shot of winning this nomination. Is your campaign confident you can get to 1,237 before Cleveland?</s>PIERSON: We are absolutely confident, Wolf, that we will get to 1,237 by California. You know, it's interesting that the Cruz campaign is laughing and joking. Meanwhile you have millions of Republican voters right now who are tearing up their registrations as we speak. And I really want to clear up something with regard to the voters voting. That is not what is happening, because the problem is when Donald Trump wins a state, the voters have voted, but yet the party system comes in on the back end, on the delegate selection process, to award delegates to other people. That's the problem.</s>BLITZER: Katrina, I saw a video of one guy ripping up his Republican registration. I haven't seen millions of Republicans doing it. Where do you get that number?</s>PIERSON: There are millions of Republicans right now who are saying this is not going to work. We have voters in Louisiana. You have voters in Tennessee who all are experiencing this right now, and many of them are threatening to leave the party. And that's not bringing the party together. And back to Colorado, we're talking about the rules. Of course Mr. Trump knows the rules. The campaign knows the rules. However, they changed the rules in Colorado this past August after Mr. Trump came out, was on top and was not fading as everyone thought. They decided to scrap the election. That's not a democratic process. There was no election in Colorado.</s>BLITZER: But the Cruz campaign, they were on the scene. They were doing what they were doing to play by the rules in Colorado. Did the -- did the Trump campaign miss an opportunity?</s>PIERSON: The Trump campaign had paid staff on the ground in Colorado, but here's what people miss about the, quote unquote, "system." Thirty-eight hundred people competing for essentially less than 40 spots. It wouldn't have mattered if Trump would have had a thousand people on the ground, because the state party already decides who they want the delegates to be. So yes, a Trump supporter may get elected at the county level, but as this pyramid system replaces itself throughout the multiple elections that they have, they eventually get their own people, which is exactly why Politico reported the same thing is already happening in Indiana, a state that has not voted yet.</s>BLITZER: But you know that there were a lot of complaints that the Trump people who were on the Colorado, they missed deadlines, they misspelled names. They didn't really know what they were doing. That's a huge embarrassment, isn't it?</s>PIERSON: Well, there's been a lot of reports, and that's why I'm refuting a lot of them now, because if you were on the ground, you could see there were pictures of ballots people have posted now on their social media accounts, showing how their delegate number was left off and others were printed twice. So not only were Trump delegates left off the ballots; their credentials were conveniently lost and then found after the fact. So there are some shenanigans going on even when you are following the rules.</s>BLITZER: But the point is, Katrina, that Donald Trump is the author of "The Art of the Deal." He knows how to make deals. He knows how the systems work. Shouldn't he and his team have been better prepared for what happened in Colorado and presumably could happen elsewhere?</s>PIERSON: Wolf, to my point, it wouldn't have mattered how many people we had on the ground if the rules aren't being followed by everyone. When the system is rigged and was rigged in this case from August in the state of Colorado, even when you're following the rules and you are making deadlines, if the county party says -- or the state party says, "We don't have your paperwork," even though you filed it and they find it after the fact, don't you think that's a little suspect? This is what we're running into.</s>BLITZER: Are you going to file a complaint now?</s>PIERSON: There are complaints filed -- that are going to be filed, and I believe Mr. Manafort already alluded to that.</s>BLITZER: Will your campaign be able to effectively work for delegates if it does come down to a contested convention? Because everyone seems to believe that the Cruz campaign is so much more better organized, more experienced people with a lot -- a lot better ground game, as they say.</s>PIERSON: Well, the senator has been running for president for a couple of years now, so he should be organized. But as far as this magical ground game, what is the excuse for losing seven states that he was supposed to win to Donald Trump? Donald Trump has won 21 states. Ted Cruz hasn't even won ten. So, so much for that ground game. We're very confident we are going to achieve those delegates by California.</s>BLITZER: Your convention manager, Paul Manafort, accused Ted Cruz's campaign -- he used these words -- of engaging in, quote, "Gestapo tactics" after the clean sweep of the delegates on Saturday in Colorado. Is that characterization, Gestapo tactics, really appropriate?</s>PIERSON: Well, you know, it's not just our convention manager. I mean, even Kasich's people were talking about some of the tactics that were being used in Michigan, for example. They used the word "strong arm," which essentially is the same thing. There are a lot of delegates that are receiving, let's just say, interesting phone calls from people that might sound intimidating. So we're going to find out, aren't we?</s>BLITZER: Is it appropriate to use the word "Gestapo"? Because I assume you know what the Gestapo did.</s>PIERSON: Well, it is a word to define exactly the type of malice that is involved with going after some of these delegates in a very hostile and intimidating way.</s>BLITZER: Katrina, you know what the Gestapo during World War II. That word should not be used to talk about the tactics that -- that the Cruz campaign engaged. That was inappropriate, right?</s>PIERSON: Well, again, you're talking about a campaign that doesn't really care much for political correctness. And if it's a term that just simply describes how...</s>BLITZER: But it's inappropriate -- you don't use the word "Gestapo" to talk about a political campaign in the United States. That gives the Gestapo too much credit, right? Don't you wish you could have taken that back?</s>PIERSON: Well, where was all this hostility concern when Mr. Trump was being called Hitler? So yes. I think this is just another situation where it is a word to determine just how hostile that this has gone on in these states for these delegates. And I think it was a word that just lets everyone knowing exactly what he was talking about.</s>BLITZER: So you don't want to back away from the word -- you don't want to back away from that word, Gestapo?</s>PIERSON: No. And the Kasich campaign also talked about strong-arm tactics.</s>BLITZER: Strong-arm tactics is one thing but the Gestapo, you know what they did. You know the millions of people, especially Jews, who were murdered.</s>PIERSON: Yes. He was talking about exactly the same thing, the strong-arm tactics that the Cruz campaign has been using, the intimidation; and a lot of people feel a little hurt by that.</s>BLITZER: All right. Stand by, Katrina, I want to continue this conversation.</s>PIERSON: Thanks, Wolf.</s>BLITZER: There's a lot more to discuss. Much more with Katrina Pierson, right after this.