Syrian General Refused to Use Chemical Weapons
AMANPOUR: Welcome back. A team of disarmament experts have arrived in Syria to begin work on dismantling the country's stockpile of chemical weapons. So far, they say that meetings with the Syrian government have been, quote, "efficient," and President Bashar al-Assad himself insists that he'll comply with the U.S.- Russian plan which is now backed up by United Nations resolution.</s>BASHAR AL-ASSAD, SYRIAN PRESIDENT: In 2003, we had proposed (inaudible) Security Council to get rid of those weapons in the Middle East, to have a chemical weapon-free zone in the Middle East. So of course, we have to comply. This is (inaudible) comply with every treaty we sign.</s>AMANPOUR: But still there's plenty of skepticism that Assad will be fully forthcoming. Earlier, I spoke to General Zaher al-Sakat. He was in Assad's army, but he defected this past March when he says that he was ordered by the chemical weapons unit commander to use those weapons against civilians. He told me that he refused and that he buried the substance and replaced it with a harmless but strong-smelling chemical cleaning agent.</s>AMANPOUR: General al-Sakat, welcome. Thanks for joining me. Let me start by asking you, do you believe that Bashar al-Assad will disarm? He has said again today that he will comply with the U.N.-Russia-U.S. plan.</s>GEN. ZAHER AL-SAKAT, SYRIAN DEFECTOR (through translator): The locations of the most of the scientific research centers in Syria and the storage facilities are known and under surveillance. That he will give up those centers and facilities for sure without lying. That said, however, Bashar al-Assad will not give up the chemical stockpile. There are four secret locations inside Syria. While in the meantime there are current transfer of chemical weapons to Hezbollah and Iraq, and from there to Iran. This was detected by the security intelligence apparatus of the revolution inside Syria, which is headed by a man who is known as Abu Mohammed al-Aktahud (ph). He is the head of the security unit that monitors all the locations of the chemical weapons of the Syrian regime.</s>AMANPOUR: General, you are now saying that these weapons have been moved around? General Salim Idris told me that they had been taken into Iraq and into Lebanon, but the Lebanese and the Iraqis deny that categorically. Where are these weapons being moved to?</s>AL-SAKAT (through translator): First of all, the observations of the movement on the ground which I completely know of, we monitored 28 large trucks moving from Judaydat Yabus toward Lebanon, then to Hezbollah, which were heavily guarded. They also found in the Fratluse (ph) area more than 50 large Mercedes and Volvo trucks also heavily guarded, moving in the direction of Iraq. The trucks were not intercepted or attacked so as not to spread chemical weapons or agents in the area, which would harm the local populations.</s>AMANPOUR: So just to confirm, you're saying that the regime is moving these weapons towards the border but not into Iraq or Lebanon?</s>AL-SAKAT (through translator): No, toward the borders. What I am saying is that we think that those trucks went to Iraq; this is our assumption. The rebels saw the secret units 416, 417 and 418, which are in charge of guarding the chemical weapons or 30 trucks moving in the direction of the Iraqi borders. They're across the Iraqi borders or not? We are not sure of that. But when the trucks crossed the Lebanese borders, we were sure that it went to Hezbollah.</s>AMANPOUR: General Sakat, what is it that you were ordered to do when you were in the unit that was responsible for the regime's chemical weapons?</s>AL-SAKAT (through translator): In the beginning of the protests, a few commanders used non-lethal chemical harassing agents, such as chloride- based chemicals without using the more dangerous agents. But when I was given the order by my immediate commander, Lt. Gen. Ali Hassan Amar (ph), the commander of the 5th Division, to use lethal chemical agents, I replaced it with a diluted bleach and buried those lethal agents in the ground.</s>AMANPOUR: General Sakat, were you ordered to use chemical weapons against residents in Syria? And if so, who ordered you to do that?</s>AL-SAKAT (through translator): First, we should distinguish between three kinds of chemical weapons. First, the non-lethal harassing agents that were used in the beginning of the protests and were fired by automatic weapons and bombs to disperse the protesters. Two, the incapacitating agents that were used in land mines, which would produce a cloud of gas that spreads in an area, harming civilians. Three, lethal agents, such as the sarin and VX gas were used and loaded into mortar shells, Cruz missiles and weapons base of fighter jets. I was given an order to use the number two stage of chemical weapons. And I knew then that this regime would end up using lethal chemical weapons against the civilians; therefore, I defected.</s>AMANPOUR: Was it sarin you were asked to -- were you ordered --</s>AL-SAKAT (through translator): The name of it is phosgene. We used these lethal agents inside a bombshell filled with explosives, would then blow it up so as poisonous cloud goes towards the innocent civilians. This is the truth. Many of my colleagues used this agent a lot in many areas of Syria.</s>AMANPOUR: I want to know who ordered you to use it? Was it President Assad? Or a commander? Who was it?</s>AL-SAKAT (through translator): I said the decision to use the lethal chemical weapons such as sarin, VX and iprik (ph) is a strategic military decision that would be made by the commander in chief of the armed forces, who is Bashar al-Assad. He is the commander in chief. As far as the harassing agents, as I have mentioned, they are the prerogative of the field commander, as with the incapacitating agents, which take the fighters out of the battle, I was given the order by my commander of the 5th Division, Lt. Gen. Ali Hassan Amar (ph), who later was awarded for killing the unarmed civilians by giving him the command of the Republican Guards.</s>AMANPOUR: That was General al-Sakat. And after a break, while the United States Congress gives new meaning to debacle, imagine a world where Italy can keep a government together for more than nine months. If you said that unimaginable, you'd be right. Turmoil on the Tiber when we come back.