Topics on Tuesday's roundtable include Mexico's President Vicente Fox's controversial comments about Mexican workers in the United States; teachers who helped students cheat; and Harvard's $50-million dollar diversity pledge. Guests: Joseph C. Phillips, syndicated columnist; Bev Smith, host of The Bev Smith Show on American Urban Radio Network; and Jeff Obafemi Carr, co-host of the radio show Freestyle in Nashville, Tenn.
ED GORDON, host: This is NEWS & NOTES.  I'm Ed Gordon.</s>ED GORDON, host: On today's Roundtable:  Mexico's president stirs up controversy on both      sides of the border; and teachers helping students to cheat.  Joining us      from NPR studios in Culver City, California, is syndicated columnist      Joseph C. Phillips.  At member station WQED in Pittsburgh, Bev Smith,      host of "The Bev Smith Show" on American Urban Radio Network.  And Jeff      Obafemi Carr, co-host of the radio show "Freestyle" in Nashville,      Tennessee.  He joins us from Spotland Productions.</s>ED GORDON, host: All right, folks, let's talk quickly about Mexican President Vicente Fox,      who has tried to convince the United States government to ease up on      immigration controls for Mexican workers.  Instead he's stirred up a      controversy by saying that there is no doubt that Mexicans, filled with      dignity, willingness and ability to work, are doing jobs that not even      blacks want to do in the United States.  Well, obviously Mr. Fox stirred      up a lot of controversy, Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton among others,      who've demanded an apology.  Initially President Fox had refused to back      away from his statement but then certainly saw that just the      juxtaposition of words there and clearly the use of `not even blacks' was      obviously offensive to many.  Jeff, your thoughts.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Host, "Freestyle"): Well, I think this has      stirred up some--excuse me--controversy, and Reverend Al Sharpton      particularly is involved asking for apologies, and I hate to sound kind      of strange on this, but I really would like to know if Sharpton's going      to ask my barber, several preachers I know and most old black men on      street corners in my neighborhood the same thing, because I'm kind of      sorry, but President Fox is about 10 years behind the underground black      American grapevine on that statement.  I've heard this over and over, and      if you talk to many of our esteemed elders, they will confirm that blacks      used to dominate in certain industries, and I won't even get into the      whole maid/hotel stereotype, but say, for instance, in masonry and      stonework and construction, honorable, dignified professions, trades.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Host, "Freestyle"): I don't know how it is in New York, since I move to Pennsylvania or      California, but all over the South, you just don't see blacks doing that      much work anymore.  You see a lot of people, particularly Mexicans, doing      that kind of work.  And as is the case in a big construction project in      my neighborhood, there were a lot of brothers standing on the corner      watching those guys work, saying the same kind of statements, and I think      that's the greater shame.  I think Sharpton and Jesse should redirect      their energy on this one and start working toward making sure our      brothers can take up some of those trades and look up      ...(unintelligible).  This has all mattered before.</s>ED GORDON, host: That being said, though, Bev, the inference of `not even      blacks,' meaning that it would possibly be even below them, I think, is      what most people took offense to.</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): Well, I didn't, and I'm in      total agreement with Jeff.  I think on this one, that we can redirect our      energy.  I think it's too easy to just look at this as a racism issue.      It's multifaceted.  It's what--the issue that Jeff just mentioned about      jobs.  I also see it as an issue of...</s>ED GORDON, host: Would you feel the same way had Trent Lott said this?</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): Maybe so.  If the debate involved an ethnic--Trent Lott is a      very rich, white man in America who may not even be involved in this      debate.  This debate centers around opportunity.  This debate centers      around opportunity, and what I think the--if you look at what he said      before and after the statement, what he was saying is there are certain      jobs that blacks no longer will take.  For example, in Maryland, you have      Mexicans and people who speak Spanish, because not all of them are      Mexicans, doing jobs in poultry factories where they do not get breaks,      where their fingers are cut off.  You have young African-Americans in      Maryland--I've heard them say it--have them on the show say, `We won't do      those types of jobs anymore.'</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): The issue should be the kinds of jobs that we're talking about, and there      ought to be someone raising the issue of Spanish-speaking people and      black people talking about opportunities, talking about the jobs and      talking about a clever way of using those people who are disenfranchised      against each other in very low-paying, unworthy jobs.</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): Mr. JOSEPH C. PHILLIPS (Syndicated Columnist):  Well, it's not an issue      that black people will not do these jobs.  It's an issue of Americans      will not do these jobs at that price.  But I think that Jesse and Al have      completely missed the point on this.  I'm not offended by what President      Fox said.  What offends me more is that he feels the freedom to be so      involved in our domestic policy discussions.  Listen.  Illegals are      coming across the borders of--our Southern borders primarily is what      we're talking about--being exploited by coyotes who stuff them into      trucks in the beds and sneaking them across the border.</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): No, Joe.</s>Mr. PHILLIPS: And the reason is because the economy in Mexico is a mess,      the government there is corrupt, the people are impoverished.  I think      that President Fox should spent a little less time being involved in what      we are doing here, spend a little more time fixing the problems down      there, then we wouldn't be having this discussion at all.</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): But don't you think that's hypocritical?  Because the United      States...</s>Mr. PHILLIPS: It's not hypocritical at all.</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): ...is involved--it is hypocritical because the United States      is involved in telling everyone what to do around the world.  That is the      controversy of Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan.  That is the controversy of      China, Russia.  We're in everyone's business.</s>Mr. PHILLIPS: Bev...</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): And our house is not clean.  So I think that's awfully      hypocritical.</s>Mr. PHILLIPS: Well, your house does not have to be clean in order to      speak to certain issues.  But the fact of the matter is is that Fox is      involved in what we're talking about because a large part of his economy      is supported and driven by American dollars being sent back to Mexico.      Illegals coming...</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): Well, some of that is because of our trade agreements.  And      some of them...</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Host, "Freestyle"): ...(Unintelligible) to do with that.</s>Mr. PHILLIPS: No, no, no, no.  I'm not talking about trade agreements.      I'm talking about illegals coming here, working and sending dollars back.</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): Well, when you start worrying about European illegals who      come here, dancers from Russia, and we give them opportunities, when you      look at that issue of opportunities of jobs around the world and the way      the Seven Sisters and the political giants have made this a have-not...</s>Mr. PHILLIPS: Bev, 500,000 Ukrainians dancers are not streaming into our      cities...</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): Because of geographics.</s>Mr. PHILLIPS: ...and into California.</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): They're being--many of them aren't being invited in.</s>Mr. PHILLIPS: Europeans are not costing the state of California five to      $10 billion a year.</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): This is not the issue.</s>Mr. PHILLIPS: It absolutely is the issue.</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): This is the issue of fairness.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Host, "Freestyle"): In all fairness, you've got a huge--you've got a big ocean      between Europe and America.</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): Hello.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Host, "Freestyle"): You don't just step across the border.  So there is kind of a      difference in the issue.  And if you kind of eliminated that ocean, I      think you'd have the same kind of problems.</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): Absolutely.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Host, "Freestyle"): But that's neither here nor there.  He's got 10 to 12 million      illegal people in the United States.</s>Mr. PHILLIPS: We're going to eliminate the ocean?  What--What?</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Host, "Freestyle"): What I'm saying is geographically, as Bev was saying, if we      were next to Ukraine and they could step over into the United States...</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): They would.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Host, "Freestyle"): ...you might face the same kind of situation.</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): They would.  They would.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Host, "Freestyle"): So it's not necessarily Mexico's fault.</s>Mr. PHILLIPS: And maybe the moon is made of green cheese.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Host, "Freestyle"): He's got a lot of people in this country.  He's got a stake.</s>Mr. PHILLIPS: The point is...</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Host, "Freestyle"): Right.</s>Mr. PHILLIPS: ...that Mexicans and--it's our Southern border,      Hispanic-speaking Mexicans, and we're talking about--listen, no one is      talking about objecting to legal immigration into our country.  What      we're talking about is the fact that we are a sovereign nation and we are      allowed to dictate the terms of who comes into our country and when.</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): Joe, when are you going to get back to the issue of work?      When are--you know, it's a real interesting thing, the way you have taken      the issue of whether or not the people who are in this country are      treated fairly on the job, and that's an issue that we as      African-Americans and those who speak Spanish in this country, those who      are Asian in this country, those who are Native American should be united      on culturally.  That's what Jesse and Al Sharpton should be talking      about.</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): I don't think that Mr. Fox made a mistake at all.  He said, as Jeff      pointed out earlier, what all of us know.  And our young people are      saying, `We don't want those jobs.  We don't want to work'...</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Host, "Freestyle"): That's right.</s>Mr. PHILLIPS: At that price.</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): ...`in chicken factories.'  We don't...</s>Mr. PHILLIPS: `We don't want those jobs at that price.'</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): And you wouldn't want it at that price either.  It's      interesting that the corporate presidents who say that they can't afford      that price get their bonuses every year.  This is an issue that should      not be treated so simplistic, my newly political friend.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Host, "Freestyle"): And it's--yeah, and it's not always...</s>Mr. PHILLIPS: Well, I think...</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Host, "Freestyle"): OK.  Go ahead.</s>Mr. PHILLIPS: ...that the talking about Ukrainian dancers is a more      simplistic...</s>ED GORDON, host: Hang on, Joe.</s>Mr. PHILLIPS: ...analysis of this than talking about illegal immigration      and its impact on our cities here in California, the crowded highways,      the impact on our schools, the impact on our budgets and the taxpayers.</s>ED GORDON, host: All right, Joe, hang on.  Jeff, go in and then we're going to      move on another subject.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Host, "Freestyle"): Yeah.  OK.</s>ED GORDON, host: You guys have made my job easy today.  Thank you.  It's a lot of      fun.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Host, "Freestyle"): Jeff, go ahead.</s>ED GORDON, host: I enjoy you guys so much.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Host, "Freestyle"): When we look at the systemic kind of issues here, there's a      huge organization here in town in Nashville, Tennessee, that--it runs one      of the three largest hotels in the world, and they have an entertainment      industry. What they did a few years ago was they bought a strip of motels      in a depressed area of Nashville.  They renovated the motels.  Why did      they renovate the motels?  So that they could ship workers in from Mexico      to actually work in the hotels.  So this is an issue of labor.  Now you      can say...</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): It's bigger than...</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Host, "Freestyle"): ...`Well, Vicente Fox doesn't have anything to say,' but he      has a stake in saying something about his people, who are being shipped.</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): Absolutely.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Host, "Freestyle"): And these are legal people who are being shipped over by      corporate America to take these jobs and to work in these positions that      frankly, like my barber says, black folks don't want to do anymore.</s>Mr. PHILLIPS: If Vicente Fox...</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): Absolutely.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Host, "Freestyle"): And that's what the issue is.</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): Absolutely.</s>Mr. PHILLIPS: If Vicente Fox...</s>ED GORDON, host: All right.</s>Mr. PHILLIPS: ...took care of business south of the border, we wouldn't      be having this discussion right now.</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): If we would get out of his business south of the border, he      might be able to do that.</s>ED GORDON, host: All right, guys.  We're going to move on.</s>Mr. PHILLIPS: What?</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Host, "Freestyle"): And if ...(unintelligible) was a fifth, we'd all be drunk.</s>ED GORDON, host: And it seems to me that one hand washes the other, and both,      frankly, are in each other's business.  And I don't know how you divorce      the two.</s>ED GORDON, host: All right.  Moving on, in Houston, an international investigation--or an      internal--Forgive me--investigation has found that teachers in four      public schools helped students cheat on statewide mandate tests.  Houston      Independent School Districts, which is the largest of the Lone Star      State, sent teams of investigators into 23 schools that had suspiciously      large swings in standardized test scores.  And what we are seeing here,      quite frankly, because these test scores are ofttimes married to dollars,      is the idea that principals, students--I'm sorry--principals, teachers      and administrators are suggesting that they need to raise these test      scores by any means necessary, obviously, to get and secure this money.      Bev?</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): Well, I think that that's part of the problem.  I think that      they're being forced by the system, the No Child Left Behind and the      pressure, to make people who may not have been trained right earlier, who      may not have been educated properly earlier, come up to par so that they      keep the grade, they keep the job, and their school doesn't lose valuable      tax dollars.  But it's also an issue of the values, or lack of values, in      this country that cheating is almost acceptable.  We had it in the Navy,      we lied to the American public.  This is a moral issue as well as an      issue of what is happening to education across the board.</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): I keep saying that these issues are not simplistic, that they're      multifaceted, and you have to look at them that way:  the teacher and the      pressure on the administrator and the school, the pressure on that      student who has not been--and by and large, is poor and African, or poor      and white, or poor and Spanish-speaking--who's not been educated properly      in the schools and the pressure to get those dollars.  And then the issue      of what is happening to our morality, that cheating around this country      in many forms is acceptable.</s>ED GORDON, host: We should note that all of those who've been accused of cheating      have denied to this point doing so.  Jeff, pick up.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Host, "Freestyle"): Yes.  I think, that it's a travesty in education.  Right here      in Robertson County, there's an investigation that got launched yesterday      into the Gateway exams.  And the Gateway exams decide whether you're      going to graduate from high school.  They also determine teacher pay and      incentives. And we live in a world now where if you can't beat them,      cheat them.  And one of the local debates here is whether the current      school superintendent should be judged by test scores alone and the      success there.  And what that makes the way for is a shift of focus in      the school system, not on comprehension but learning the materials needed      to boost the scores.  And I taught high school for a while, and I know      that value is in comprehension and the application of knowledge, not      simply the test scores.  And ultimately, test scores end up in this      situation helping the superintendent and the principals get raises, and      it makes way for corruption.</s>Mr. PHILLIPS: It also doesn't do anything for the...</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): And there's...</s>Mr. PHILLIPS: ...kids, who, as you point out, are not learning      anything...</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Host, "Freestyle"): No.</s>Mr. PHILLIPS: ...particularly when the professors or teachers are      helping them cheat.  I found fascinating in this story the fact that two      of the students with the help of the teachers still got two of the      questions wrong. So that, you know...</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): So maybe we ought to be talking about educating the teachers      also.</s>Mr. PHILLIPS: Educating the teachers, actually.</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): Yes.  Absolutely.</s>ED GORDON, host: But Joe brings up an interesting point, and it seems to me, lost      in all of what we see on the educational front today is a growing      generation that is being--and as Bev so astutely pointed out, these are      typically minority and poor, but poor and white fall into this      category--that are being left behind by an ever-moving, ever-educated      group of folks who don't have to deal with the same pressures.  What are      we doing for this generation?</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): Well, we're showing them that cheating is OK.  I mean, we      have skaters who no longer want to be competitive with the other person;      they want to break their legs.  We have people who pump chemicals into      their bodies so they can be better than the other, not by skill alone.      We have this all the time.  We have people in the Navy who cheat.  And we      have a television show, gentlemen--and I do mean gentlemen--we have a      television show that is called "The Cheaters" where somebody runs around      with a camera.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Host, "Freestyle"): Right.</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): This way of thinking is all right in America.  We must also      make this a discussion about values and morals and ethics, gentlemen.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Host, "Freestyle"): Yeah.</s>Mr. PHILLIPS: Well, and I think that certainly when it comes to those      questions, they transcend the economic stations in people's lives      because, as you point out, the cheating in the Naval Academy and such,      they're not done by poor kids.  I'd want to make that point.  But you're      absolutely right.  And I think it's also important to point out that all      these teachers have been fired.  So the response to the cheating is also      important and how hard we come down on this kind of thing.</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): Absolutely, because I'm not so sure that that would--Joe, I      actually agree with you on that.  I'm not so sure...</s>Mr. PHILLIPS: Write it down.</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): Write that down.  I actually...</s>Mr. PHILLIPS: Yeah.  We're going to be trading e-mails very soon.</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): Pretty soon.</s>ED GORDON, host: All right.  All right, guys, we've got about a minute left.      Let's stay with it.  Go ahead, Bev.</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): I actually agree with you.  I do not believe that to resolve      this dilemma is to come down hard on the teachers, because it's bigger      than that. But I see that as a cop-out:  Fire the teachers, and we move      on, and that...</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Host, "Freestyle"): And you move on without...</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): ...concluded the issue.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Host, "Freestyle"): Yeah, without changing things.</s>ED GORDON, host: ...(Unintelligible)</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): And you move on without it, right.  Right.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Host, "Freestyle"): Yeah.  If you don't change the culture and the mentality of      the thing, then you will continue to have that behavior.  One of the      things that is sad about the situation in Robertson County here      that's--same thing in the public school district in Houston--is that now      teachers will not be able to administer the tests to their own students,      because there's too much--they're looking out for themselves.  I think      that's pretty sad.  I think it's a trust issue.  When I was coming up, we      trusted certain teachers to look out for us, and they didn't help us      cheat, but they prepared us because they cared about us.  I think that      that has changed in the culture of education in America, and unless we do      something about it, we're going to continue to have a number of reality      shows that encourage us to continue to cheat to get whatever we need.</s>ED GORDON, host: All right.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Host, "Freestyle"): By hook or by crook.</s>ED GORDON, host: Joe Phillips, Bev Smith and Jeff Obafemi Carr, thank you very      much. We were in so deep with the Vicente Fox conversation, we didn't get      to two of our issues today, and that is that Harvard will spent over $50      million to make its faculty more diverse; more controversy there with      Lawrence Summers.  And then a look at the new X-raying devices that see a      little bit more than you may want them to.</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): Yeah.</s>ED GORDON, host: We'll talk about those in the days to come.</s>ED GORDON, host: You're listening to NEWS & NOTES from NPR News.