Topics on Tuesday's roundtable include tensions in Italy over the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency and the push behind the global Live 8 concerts. Guests: Bev Smith, host of The Bev Smith Show on American Urban Radio Network; Jeff Obafemi Carr, founding artistic director of the Amun Rah Theatre in Nashville, Tenn.; and Robert George, editorial writer for The New York Post.
ED GORDON, host: This is NEWS & NOTES.  I'm Ed Gordon.</s>ED GORDON, host: On today's Roundtable:  Tensions rise in Italy over the CIA; a Lincoln      Memorial video causes controversy; and the push behind Live8.  Joining us      to talk about all of this, from our New York bureau, is Robert George,      editorial writer at the New York Post; at member station WDUQ in      Pittsburgh, Bev Smith, host of "The Bev Smith Show" on the American Urban      Radio Network; and, in Nashville, Jeff Obafemi Carr, founder and artistic      director of the Amun Ra Theatre.  He's at Spotland Productions in      Nashville.</s>ED GORDON, host: All right, folks.  Thanks for joining us.</s>ED GORDON, host: Now this is something that actually came to light last week and now it is      not going away; in fact, more trouble.  A judge in Milan, Italy, issued      arrest warrants for 13 US intelligence operatives on kidnapping charges,      I should note.  Now we are seeing that the CIA agents allegedly kidnapped      a radical Egyptian cleric from the streets of Milan and transported him      to Egypt for interrogation and torture, it's said.  Now we're seeing      denials--denials from the Italian intelligence services, who are      suggesting they knew nothing about it, while CIA officials are saying, in      fact, they had contacted and got the consent of Italian intelligence      services before all of this went on.</s>ED GORDON, host: Robert George, one of the things that all of these agents must be      harkening for are the days of the cloak that many of these folks worked      under for years and years.  We would not have heard anything about this,      first and foremost, years ago.  More so, what do you think of the      charges, first?</s>Mr. ROBERT GEORGE (Editorial Writer, New York Post): I wouldn't--I'm, in      a sense, going to kind of reserve judgment.  I certainly wouldn't be      surprised if it's going--if, A, that it occurred.  I'm certainly not      surprised that the--if there was communication between the US      intelligence agencies and the Italian agencies and I'm also, of course,      not surprised at the Italians--that the Italians are denying it, because,      as you said, I mean, these kind of things have gone on for years, and      probably even--and following some of the reforms in the late 1970s, early      1980s, these things went on and we ne--and it was sort of a `hear no      evil, see no evil.'  It's part of sometimes the ugly but necessary      aspects of fighting terrorism and fighting for certain US interests.</s>ED GORDON, host: Bev, the idea that we are hearing about alleged--we should      underline that--torture and interrogation from one foreign country to      another--again, something that has followed in whispers the CIA around      for a long time--but the fact that we're hearing more and seeing more of      this in the daylight, does that speak to a new world, a new outlook on      how intelligence is carried on, in general?</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): I don't only think that it      speaks to a new outlook on how intelligence is carried on in general; I      think it speaks to a new kind of relationship between America and      countries that used to be the allies.  What's so interesting about this      particular story is that the Italian central government, which would be      like the Bush administration, was not a part of the investigation, that a      private, acting independently, Italian investigation showed that the      United States allegedly, I'll use your politically correct word, did the      kidnapping.  We've been kidnapping people all along and sending them to      places that torture them.  This is not new.  We did the same thing to a      Canadian citizen.</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): So I'm looking for this to put front and center what the United States      has been involved in.  Now other countries do it, too, but I'm worried      about our country.  We should not forget that we kidnapped Noriega--Does      anyone remember him?--that we held in prison for a very long time Marcos.      So we have a history of doing this.  I'd like to see how we get out of      this one and what it says to other countries.  We've been doing the same      thing in those countries. Maybe their independent investigators will step      forward also.</s>ED GORDON, host: Jeff, it seems to me--and we don't ofttimes like to admit      this--but the United States is, in fact, the world police.  But I am      seeing more and more countries stand up against the giant and push back,      far more than I've ever seen in years past.  What does this say, if      anything?</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Founder, Artistic Director, Amun Ra Theatre): Yeah, and I agree with you, Ed.  I think now that the world that we live      in today, everybody feels as if they have their own right to be      self-determining, and the--even if that means standing up against the      United States.  And there are a couple of points that we can make here      about `the Italian job,' so to speak. Number one is that we, as a general      public, never really know what's really going on, period, nor do we fully      ever--I don't think we're ever gonna fully understand, especially in the      post-9/11 world, of what the CIA calls `extraordinary renditions,' where      US operatives shuttle suspects, and, in this case, an abductee, to      third-party countries.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Founder, Artistic Director, Amun Ra Theatre): The second point is what scares me about this is that the US argument is      that they don't send abductees to countries where they're likely to be      tortured. Now they aren't denying they snatch people off the streets.      That's OK.  The third point is that the Italians aren't playing on this      one.  They've issued the indictment for the 13.  They want to extradite      the Americans.  Now how is that for turnabout?  How often does that      happen?  We all know that the US may even openly laugh at Italy for      having that much nerve, and I think that that's gonna deepen the growing      divide between the US and the rest of the world.</s>ED GORDON, host: What does this speak to, Robert George, in terms of the CIA, in      and of itself--again, perhaps some years ago the most powerful agency,      and I'm also talking about in juxtaposition to any presidential      administration you might put it next to--but it does seem to have been      tarnished over the last few years.</s>Mr. ROBERT GEORGE (Editorial Writer, New York Post): Well, it has, and the CIA--I mean, both the CIA and the FBI      came out--came down with a whole wall of criticism following 9/11 because      of clear failures there.  In fact, some people see the CIA as kind of the      `loser'--quote, unquote--in a lot of the intelligence juggling      that's--intelligence overhauls that have been--have happened in the      last--in the last few months.  And I would say that it--I mean, I think      it's true, that the CIA in itself is trying to find out what its new role      is, and we're gonna see how this case plays out because if--it looks now      as if the--Italy and other somewhat friendly countries to us aren't going      to, in a sense, respect the role of the CIA, it's gonna--it'll end up      being another black eye towards the organization.</s>ED GORDON, host: We saw...</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): Well...</s>ED GORDON, host: Go ahead, Bev.  Real quick for me.</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): Well, I think it's also interesting the denial.  As I      mentioned earlier, we've been involved in kidnapping before.  So let's      take the gloves off and talk about who we are.  If this happened--if--and      I believe it did--and if the government--CIA--is picking out people--and      they've done that; they've done that all over the world before--then I'd      like to see this one come straight out in the public because let us trace      who ordered it.  The CIA doesn't operate in a vacuum.  Who ordered this?      Did it come directly from the CIA heads or did it come from higher-ups in      the Bush administration?  Let's go all the way with this one so we, as      Americans, can find out what is happening so that we...</s>Mr. ROBERT GEORGE (Editorial Writer, New York Post): And it should also be pointed out, though, that sometimes      this is a very--it's a very ugly business, the idea of intelligence, and      in some cases, they need to do extra means to protect the United States,      which is the point.</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): But kidnapping an Egyptian citizen, if they did it, and I      believe they did, and sending that citizen to be tortured,      pinpointing--you know, we call it `driving while black' if we're a black      American.  Pinpointing people on the basis of what you think, we have to      be very careful about that.  After all, gentlemen, aren't we the ones      that keep talking about democracy?  Aren't we in a war because of it?  So      if we're behaving this way, how can we set an example?--which is exactly      why a lot of us are against the war in Iraq.  We talk one thing, or as      the Indians used to say, the Native Americans, `White man speaks with      forked tongue.'  You talk one way and do another.</s>ED GORDON, host: Or as Cameo says, `Speaking out of the side of your neck.'  But,      you know, let me ask this, though, Jeff...</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): Hello!</s>ED GORDON, host: ...real quick, and then we're gonna move on to something else.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Founder, Artistic Director, Amun Ra Theatre): Go ahead.  Yeah.</s>ED GORDON, host: The president spoke very plainly and very clearly last week and      reiterated what he said immediately after 9/11, and that's `It's a new      ball game.'  And we are not...</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Founder, Artistic Director, Amun Ra Theatre): Yeah.</s>ED GORDON, host: ...going to wait for people to attack us again.  Is there any      leniency here, if in fact the CIA--and we'll never know this; they're not      gonna come out and say--but if they assume that this person that they      abducted was part of a plan to again design something like that, are we      now suggesting that this is just post-9/11?</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): Oh, jeez, you said the president spoke clearly.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Founder, Artistic Director, Amun Ra Theatre): Yeah, I think it's post-9/11.  It's--he spoke clearly.</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): I don't think the president...</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Founder, Artistic Director, Amun Ra Theatre): It's a dual-edged sword.  Yeah, I don't think...</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): That's right.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Founder, Artistic Director, Amun Ra Theatre): It's almost oxymoronic, sometimes.  I think when you talk      about political figures on either side, to say that they spoke clearly,      I'm sure that's...</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): Clearly, yes.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Founder, Artistic Director, Amun Ra Theatre): ...kind of tough to define, but really, I do think that in      post-9/11 days we run a dual danger.  On one hand, you want security, and      you want to be able to find threats and eliminate them before they      actually manifest, but on the other hand, who is in charge of determining      who exactly is a threat?  And that's what scares me.  And the point that      I was making earlier comes up again, and that's not that we--he--we      weren't denying that people get snatched up.  The denial was we don't      send them where people get tortured.  But we know that there...</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): Well...</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Founder, Artistic Director, Amun Ra Theatre): ...are all kinds of reports of people being tortured, even in      the camps at Guantanamo Bay.  So I think that...</s>ED GORDON, host: All right.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Founder, Artistic Director, Amun Ra Theatre): ...we have to really look at the fact that they can come and      get you.  Big Brother is very real in the day we live in and we won't      ever know what's fully going on because thing--the answer that always      comes out is `This is a matter of national security.'</s>ED GORDON, host: All right.  Let me move us on to another subject before one of      you gets snatched up as you leave the studios.  Let's move our attention      to the Live8 concerts, which were designed to raise consciousness about      African poverty.  One of the interesting points--and we should say that      this was an offshoot of the 1985 Live Aid concerts that brought attention      to famine at that point in Africa and the poor conditions, and it was the      baby and brainchild of Bob Geldof, the organizer of that event, as well      as the driving force behind this one.</s>ED GORDON, host: Here's the interesting point.  Initially there were criticisms that the      Live Aid concerts weren't, quote, "black enough," that we're helping      Africa out, yet most of the acts were white.  There was some criticism      about the same here, though people like Russell Simmons, Chris Tucker,      Destiny's Child, Alicia Keys all performed and were part of this year's      event.  Here's the interesting point, though.  There is criticism now      that not enough is being done by the black community to raise attention      to the plight of Africa.  In particular, they're pointing to black      artists in this way:  Why wait for Bob Geldof to bring attention to this      and to raise the consciousness level through these concerts?  Why aren't      black artists doing more?</s>Mr. ROBERT GEORGE (Editorial Writer, New York Post): That...</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): Well, that's a very good question.  That's an excellent      question. But when we look at the history of Africa and who has always      petitioned for the right, we find that, with rare exception--and the rare      exception is the late Leon Sullivan, or, in New Jersey, a very fine      African-American congressman, or Danny Davis and others.  But, really and      truly, the issue of what is right and wrong in Africa has always been      championed by whites.  Now the question is:  Should we be pointing a      finger just at the hip-hop generation, as I've been doing on my show,      about getting involved in issues of concern for African-Americans, or      should we be pointing the finger across the board?  You do not hear a cry      from the civil rights people at all about comparing what is happening and      the dilemma of AIDS and HIV on the continent and here in the United      States, connecting the dots.  So I am not surprised that whites have been      involved because they've always been involved.</s>Mr. ROBERT GEORGE (Editorial Writer, New York Post): Yeah, but...</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): But I am surprised that we're picking alone on the hip-hop      generation because the criticism can be spread around.</s>Mr. ROBERT GEORGE (Editorial Writer, New York Post): Yeah, and it--I mean, it's--and it's interesting because, I      mean, at least--I guess in the early to mid-'80s you did have a few      African-Americans involved when the issue was South Africa and ending      apartheid and so forth.  But it is unfortunately true that when--now that      the issues have changed and we know, pardon the pun, it's not quite black      and white as it was before, and it focuses on issues such as debt and      economics and so forth, unfortunately, African-Americans haven't, at      least from the celebrity side, been as involved as they should have been.</s>ED GORDON, host: Hey, Jeff, broaden this, if you will.  Take it outside of the      plight and problems of Africa, and include the idea of the plight and      problems of the downtrodden and others here, people of color, in this      country, and take it outside of the celebrity world and just, if you      will, use a monolith of the black community, in general.  There are      complaints and cries, usually whispers around the barbecue or the kitchen      table--we don't like to necessarily always air the dirty laundry in      public--that African-Americans just aren't doing enough to correct their      blight.  It's part of what Bill Cosby has either been applauded or      chastised for.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Founder, Artistic Director, Amun Ra Theatre): Yeah, I think activism is something that definitely needs to      take place and that's everywhere from what Bev referenced as the civil      rights community group down to the hip-hop community and beyond.  All of      us, in general, need to stop being victims of what I call the Pied Piper      paradigm.  I mean, it's popular now to have Africa as a cause.  Bono, to      his credit, with U2, has put time, money and clout into activism against      AIDS in Africa.  The resulting fallout, though, mostly because of the      media attention that comes from seeing a white guy speak out for Africa,      is the support of this Pied Piper paradigm, where black artists sadly      continue to follow the leader. Wherever it's popular, we follow, and we      need to be more self-determining. I'm glad our artists are helping now.      I believe that we're called on to move in directions of activism that we      initiate, though, as a community.  The danger of being led...</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): But you know what, gentlemen?  I think that this is a little      bit--if I can go a little deeper...</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): (Singing) A little bit deeper now.</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): I see this--there's a real--the issue that I see is that we as Africans      in America have had a real hard difficult time because of racism--Oh, I      said the word--because of racism--in identifying with people who look      like us, who come from Africa.  Some of us still have a problem in      2005--Can I get an `Amen'?--saying we're Africans in America, or      African-America.  So I think that this is just deeper than AIDS and HIV      and the problem of forgiving the debt.  I think this is the real issue of      how we identify ourselves.  And on college campuses, if you talk to      African students from Sacramento to the state of Washington, Seattle,      where there's a large contingency, to Denver, Colorado, where I met      Nigerians--if you talk to them, they say, `Black people don't come and      talk to us.  They view us as the enemy.'  If you talk to those from the      Caribbean who are in New York--Robert, you know this.</s>Mr. ROBERT GEORGE (Editorial Writer, New York Post): Yeah.</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): Same identical thing.  We African-Americans have a problem      stretching our hand to people who look like us because of racism.</s>Mr. ROBERT GEORGE (Editorial Writer, New York Post): Yeah.</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): And that needs to be put on the table, and you're right, Ed,      it's an uncomfortable issue.  We don't like to talk about disliking the      color of our skin.</s>ED GORDON, host: Robert, 30 seconds.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Founder, Artistic Director, Amun Ra Theatre): Yeah, we...</s>Mr. ROBERT GEORGE (Editorial Writer, New York Post): Well, I was just going to say that the other irony is that      the other group that's becoming more involved in African issues are white      Christian conservatives here in America, and it's...</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Founder, Artistic Director, Amun Ra Theatre): Indeed.</s>Mr. ROBERT GEORGE (Editorial Writer, New York Post): ...a shame that...</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): Scary.</s>Mr. ROBERT GEORGE (Editorial Writer, New York Post): ...you know, that black--African-Americans aren't even, you      know, being involved even more so than them.</s>ED GORDON, host: Jeff, real quick for me.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Founder, Artistic Director, Amun Ra Theatre): Yeah, indeed, that's something that I encounter all the time      from ministerial perspective and also from a community perspective, and      that is that it's becoming popular in very, very conservative white      Southern Baptist congregations here in the South to now support Africa.      And something about that doesn't seem to jive for me.</s>ED GORDON, host: All right.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Founder, Artistic Director, Amun Ra Theatre): There's also an added mission element, but we'd have to talk      about that at another point.</s>Ms. BEV SMITH (Host, "The Bev Smith Show"): That'll take another show.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Founder, Artistic Director, Amun Ra Theatre): That is another show, yeah, at least.</s>ED GORDON, host: In fact, that is the case.  Robert George, Bev Smith, Jeff      Obafemi Carr, thank you very much.  Greatly appreciate it.  And where      else but this Roundtable will you hear the plight of the CIA and a quote      from Cameo at the same time?</s>ED GORDON, host: All right.  Take a break here.</s>ED GORDON, host: You're listening to NEWS & NOTES from NPR News.