a stunner in the Russia investigation; CNN Heroes
JOHN BOLTON, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: -- position he's in of criticizing President Trump and the is so-called collusion with Russia unless he did use classified information.</s>FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: CNN NEWSROOM starts now.</s>WHITFIELD: All right. Hello, again, everyone, and thank you so much for being with me this Sunday. I'm Fredricka Whitfield. All right. Happening this hour President Trump and the first lady are departing his golf club in Bedminster, New Jersey, on the way back to the White House. The president spent the early part of the day along with his personal attorney Rudy Giuliani managing potential fallout after a "New York Times" report about White House attorney Don McGahn being interviewed in the Mueller investigation. The report detailing the White House counsel has cooperated extensively in the special counsel investigation, providing as much as 30 hours of testimony. Giuliani saying this morning McGahn was encouraged to interview and the White House knows exactly what he said.</s>RUDY GIULIANI, ATTORNEY FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP: The president encouraged him to testify, is happy that he did.</s>CHUCK TODD, HOST, "MEET THE PRESS": Yes.</s>GIULIANI: Is quite secure that there is nothing in the testimony that will hurt the president. And John Dowd told you that when he said he was a strong witness for the president.</s>WHITFIELD: The president meantime is lashing out, comparing the probe to McCarthyism, tweeting today, "The failing 'New York Times' wrote a fake piece today implying that because White House counsel Don McGahn was giving hours of testimony to the special counsel he must be a John Dean type rat. But I allowed him and all others to testify. I didn't have to. I have nothing to hide." CNN's Ryan Nobles is joining me now from Brooklyn Heights, New Jersey, where the president has been for the weekend, but again, on his way now to Washington momentarily. So, Ryan, Rudy Giuliani says he has a pretty good feeling about what Don McGahn would have said, but do they know specifically what he said and what the Q and A was like?</s>RYAN NOBLES, CNN WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, that's a big question right now, Fred. We know that Don McGahn spent an extensive amount of time with the special counsel, more than 30 hours over three different occasions. And we also know that Don McGahn is somebody that has been around the president at some of these key moments that would be of interest to the special counsel. And the president and the White House are pretty insistent that that's OK, that they're the ones that gave Don McGahn the right, the ability to go on and have this conversation with the special counsel, and they also were the ones that told him it was OK to waive attorney-client privilege which essentially allowed him to say whatever he knew about these interactions over the past year and half, but what's interesting about all of this is that it's not abundantly clear that the White House knows exactly what Dan McGahn told Robert Mueller. Listen to how Rudy Giuliani was pressed on this, this morning on "Meet the Press."</s>GIULIANI: We have a good sense, obviously, of what Mr. McGahn testified to. I can figure it out from --</s>TODD: How do you say that good sense? Have you debriefed him?</s>GIULIANI: No, no. But Mr. Dowd has a good sense of it. He talked to them at the time.</s>TODD: So you don't know what Mr. McGahn -- you don't know 100 percent of what he testified to? To Mr. Mueller?</s>GIULIANI: I think that through John Dowd, we have a pretty good sense of it. And John Dowd yesterday said -- I'll use his words rather than mine -- that McGahn was a strong witness for the president. So I don't need to know much more about that.</s>NOBLES: But what the White House has not really responded to was the assertion in "The New York Times" report that when don McGahn learned of the -- counsel for the president, his private attorney suggesting that he meet with the special counsel that he was concerned that perhaps he was being setup, that this was a way for them to perhaps put him on the hook for any obstruction of justice charge that the special counsel discovered and that's when he got his own personal attorney and was advised by his own personal attorney how to handle the situation, and Don McGahn's personal attorney has been pretty clear this weekend. He didn't go into these interviews with the goal of providing them incriminating information about the president but there's no doubt that he's been a cooperating witness, and William Burke, the attorney for Don McGahn, has said that he was very honest as anyone should be when talking to a federal investigator. So of course, Fred, this gets back to your original question, what exactly did Don McGahn tell the special counsel? It seems the only person that knows that for sure is Robert Mueller -- Fred.</s>WHITFIELD: All right. Ryan Nobles, thanks so much. Giuliani also discussed the infamous Trump Tower meeting today saying that meeting was of no consequence and could not possibly result in charges against the president.</s>GIULIANI: If someone said, I have information about your opponent, you would take that meeting. If it happens to be --</s>TODD: From the Russian government?</s>GIULIANI: She didn't represent the Russian government. She's a private citizen. I don't even know if they knew she was a Russian at the time. All they had was her name.</s>TODD: They knew she was Russian. I think they knew she was Russian, but OK.</s>GIULIANI: Well, they knew it when they met with her, not when they set up the meeting. You told me -- you asked me, you know, did they show an intention to do anything with Russians, well, all they knew is that a woman with a Russian name wanted to meet with them. They didn't know she was a representative of the Russian government. And indeed she is not a representative of the Russian government.</s>WHITFIELD: All right. But of course we know that really isn't true. We have the e-mail exchange with Donald Trump Jr. that proves otherwise. Rob Goldstone wrote to Trump Junior on June 3rd, 2016, saying, "The Crown prosecutor of Russia met with his father this morning, and in their meeting offered to provide the Trump campaign with some official documents and information that would incriminate Hillary and her dealings with Russia and would be very useful to your father. This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government's support for Mr. Trump." Donald Trump Jr. then responds, "If it's what you say, I love it, especially later in the summer." I want to bring in Jamil Jaffer, former associate White House counsel in the George W. Bush administration, and CNN presidential historian Tim Naftali. Good to see both of you. OK, Jamil, you first. You know, the White House is not refuting that Don McGahn actually gave the testimony. In fact even saying they encouraged it. But the White House is fighting back against any negative inference from it, so what would the White House be so worried about?</s>JAMIL JAFFER, FORMER ASSOCIATE WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL, GEORGE W. BUSH ADMINISTRATION: Well, look, I mean, obviously Don McGahn very close to the president, speaks to the president on a regular basis about what's going on, gives advice to the president about what he was doing or the vice president was doing. The president waived attorney-client privilege, he waived executive privilege and told Don McGahn go in and talk. Well, that's a problem because there's a lot of conversation that might be had that were private or provided advice and now that Don McGahn has gone and said everything he knows, because that's what the president told him to do, you know, the president is in a situation where if one of his stories varies from what Don McGahn said, right, if he goes and testifies that's a real problem for the president if he doesn't tell the same story that Don did. Now Don is a smart lawyer but he's going to go tell the truth when he's confronted by prosecutor and there's no privilege at stake because the president waived it.</s>WHITFIELD: And, Jamil, as you're talking we're looking at live pictures of Marine One there in New Jersey, the president and the first lady leaving New Jersey, eventually on the way back to Washington after having spent the weekend there at the New Jersey golf course, you know, bearing Trump's name. So, Tim, you know, the -- Rudy Giuliani, the personal attorney for President Trump, says he has a pretty good idea, you know, what Don McGahn would have said. But you saw in that, you know, question and answer on "Meet the Press" it didn't -- it doesn't sound like Rudy Giuliani has heard first person from Don McGahn what the questions were, what information he would have given, but clearly Don McGahn is also protecting himself by having his own attorney with him. He is a witness in this exchange with the special counsel. How concerning --</s>TIM NAFTALI, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Well --</s>WHITFIELD: You know, should the White House be?</s>NAFTALI: Well, the first thing that the White House should be concerned about -- be concerned about is that Mr. McGahn is the lawyer for the presidency. He's the lawyer for the office of the presidency. He's not Donald Trump's personal lawyer. So his job is to protect a presidency. And we're assuming he of course he tells the truth, his answers are going to be in support of our country's presidency. It's very possible that he will give information that provides the special prosecutor with better questions to ask about Mr. Trump's behavior. It doesn't mean that Mr. McGahn went into the meeting in order to incriminate Donald Trump. Mr. McGahn wasn't with Donald Trump during the campaign. He doesn't know every associate of Donald Trump.</s>WHITFIELD: Right. But it's interesting that Giuliani would say, you know, it's his belief that Don McGahn would be a strong witness for the president.</s>NAFTALI: Fred, Fred, I have to say that during the Watergate period, the White House -- that would be the Richard Nixon White House -- made the same claim because what's the alternative? You can't have Giuliani go forward and say, we're worried. Even if they are, they can't say it publicly.</s>WHITFIELD: Mm-hmm. But I guess worry sounds like that is the sentiment, Jamil, coming from the president when the president tweets, you know, a reference to the Nixon administration attorney John Dean and calling him a rat almost says, you know, maybe a warning to Don McGahn that, you know, you should only say but so much. I mean, what do you interpret from that coming from the president today?</s>JAFFER: Well, you know, Fredricka, it's hard to know what the president is thinking when he puts his tweets out there. I mean, you know, in one -- on one hand, he is admitting I told Don McGahn to the tell the truth and the whole truth which means that if the president's story varies at all from Don McGahn's, that's a huge problem for the president. On top of that he's also talking about John Dean and Nixon and Watergate, suggesting there might be some parallel here which is not a positive for the president so, you know, as always --</s>WHITFIELD: Right. But why does he do that? Why is he doing that?</s>JAFFER: I mean, it is inexplicable. The president ought to get off the Twitter and get off of Twitter tomorrow, he ought to stop tweeting out, he got to listen to his lawyers, stop talking about the investigation, stop going after Jeff Sessions, stop going after Bob Mueller, focus on his agenda and -- I mean, he's making it worse for himself. Anybody who's Donald Trump's lawyer right now has got to be thinking, this is a train wreck.</s>WHITFIELD: So from Marine One now -- and there is Barron, we haven't seen him in a long time there. The first family there, you know, getting off of Marine One on their way now to Air Force One as they are still in New Jersey ending the weekend there. Any chance we might be able to hear anything? All right, no. But if anything is going to be said, we'll have to rewrack it and try to bring it to you, but you see them at least waving there. So, you know, Tim, the White House, perhaps it's trying to look like it's not worried at all, very calm, cool and collected about all of this, especially by hearing from Rudy Giuliani, you know, earlier today, but then if you're Don McGahn, while you have gotten the green light from the White House to do this interview, and now there is that "New York Times'," you know, report that says, yes, it was 30 hours, you know, of interviewing over nine months' period, what is that like for Don McGahn to go back to work as the White House counsel? Would he, you know, share the testimony? Would he be mum on it? I mean, what is this going to be like for him?</s>NAFTALI: I'd leave it to a lawyer to determine whether he should share it, but, look, one thing that is really interesting about this particular story is that when John Dean cooperated with investigators he was looking for immunity and he was on his way out. Presumably Mr. McGahn is not looking for immunity and he's planning to remain the lawyer for the Office of the President. He is a pro. He is a professional. That's his job. His job is to answer questions to defend the presidency. Not necessarily to defend the president. And that's where the challenge is. Because frankly, Mr. Trump, President Trump is not accustomed to having people around him whose job it is to protect the institution rather than the person.</s>WHITFIELD: Right, and then, Jamil, no wonder why Don McGahn would have his own attorney present.</s>JAFFER: Well, look, Don McGahn, his attorney Bill Burke is a very smart guy, former deputy White House counsel in the Bush administration, he's been through investigations, he knows how to run. He's providing his client the best advice he can and in this case, unlike the president, I bet you Don McGahn is taking Bill Burke's advice.</s>WHITFIELD: All right. Jamil Jaffer, Tim Naftali, good to see you both. Thanks so much.</s>NAFTALI: Thank you.</s>WHITFIELD: All right. Coming up there, the men and women who have kept our country safe from terrorists, but the president is threatening to revoke even more security clearances from veteran intelligence officials, this as 60 now former CIA leaders warned the president's threats could weaken U.S. democracy. Stay with us.