Trump: Durbin 'Misrepresented' What I Said, 'Blew Up DACA' Deal; Trump Foregoes MLK Day For Service, Golfs Instead; Trump: 'I'm The Least Racist Person You Will Ever Interview'; MLK: Trump Comments On Immigration 'Extremely Racist'; GOP Lawmakers Face Angry Constituents.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: What the president has said doesn't reflect poorly on Haiti. It reflects poorly on him, on his intellect, on his experience or lack of it, and on what is in his heart. Thanks very much for watching. Time to hand it over to Chris Cuomo for "Cuomo Prime Time", Chris.</s>CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: All right, Anderson. Well said. Appreciate it. We have a lot to get after tonight. Martin Luther King the III has a message for the president of the United States. Congressman Cedric Richmond, the chair of the Congressional Black Caucus is on. We're going to ask whether he plans to boycott the State of the Union. I'm Chris Cuomo. Welcome to "Prime Time". It has been 50 years since Martin Luther King Jr. was assassinated, but his legacy, challenging this nation to live up to its founding ideal that all men are created equal, well, that lives on. Let's be honest, though. Our country is grappling with race and racism still, fueled by a president well known for making divisive statements. President Trump himself declared this MLK Day a day of service, but he spent it on the golf course, taking time out to attack the Democratic senator who exposed the president's s-hole comment, where he expressed a preference for people from Norway over immigrants from Africa and Central and South America. It is an unfortunate think that on Martin Luther King weekend, the president of the United States felt the need to repeat something that he says all too often.</s>DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: No, I'm not a racist. I am the least racist person you have ever interviewed. That I can tell you. No, I am the least racist person that you've ever met. Just so you know, I am the least racist person, the least racist person that you've ever seen. I am the least racist person that you have ever met. I am the least racist person.</s>CUOMO: Now, many of you see this as a sad commentary that Trump doth protest too much. But maybe this is exactly the moment we need to act on Dr. King's legacy. After all, underneath all of this soaring imagery and oratory, the imploring of the collective spirit, King's enduring gift is truth. He was speaking the truth, fighting for truth, equality, liberty, justice. All of these are about truth, and that's where we are today, demanding the truth and accountability when truth is abused. And that takes us to a boiling controversy at the White House and our great debate. We have Former Obama Special Adviser, Van Jones with us, along with Former Trump Campaign Strategist David Urban. Gentlemen, thank you for joining us.</s>DAVID URBAN, FORMER TRUMP CAMPAIGN STRATEGIST: Thanks for having me, Chris.</s>CUOMO: All right, so, Van, the question is as direct as it is loaded. Do you believe that this was the straw that broke the camel's back and that you can now say that the president is a racist?</s>VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: You know, unfortunately I think you can. I think you have to. I had actually hoped that Trump was a racial opportunist, which is not the same as a racist. Somebody who knows better but he's using racial antagonisms. He's taking the opportunity to get the white people mad at the black people just to help himself but deep in his heart he knew better. The problem you have now with this, he's not in front of reality, he's not getting an ad in "The New York Times". He's in a private meeting, and what he said is a textbook definition of racism. Let me tell you why I say that. If he had said, "I don't want anybody coming here who's not an engineer or a doctor. I don't care if they come from Nigeria or Norway, but send me the engineers." That's elitist but it's not racist. That's not wt he said. What he said was -- take out the curse word. What he said was, "I don't want people coming from Nigeria no matter what their qualifications are. I want people coming from Norway no matter what their qualifications are." That is the definition of racism. Now, the problem you have now is people will then come out and try to re-change what he said. But when you put a whole group of people in one category, negative or positive, --</s>URBAN: Sure.</s>JONES: -- that's a textbook definition of racism. That's what he did. That's what he did.</s>CUOMO: Mr. Urban.</s>URBAN: Van, you know, I have much more respect for you than what you just -- what you said. I know you don't believe that in your heart of hearts, Van.</s>JONES: I do!</s>URBAN: Van, listen, you weren't in the room. You didn't hear what the guy said. What I believe the president was talking about and alluding to in a private meeting, right after meeting with the prime minister of Norway, was that he was in favor of skills-based immigration. Chris, this morning --</s>JONES: That's not what he said.</s>URBAN: Van, were you there? I wasn't there. You weren't there. And Chris wasn't there. This morning, Chris, when I watched your interview with the Haitian Ambassador to the United States, I thought it was very poignant. You asked him a lot of questions about the program the president was specifically talking about, TPS, and you asked him, look, if your country is great, why do you need TPS still? And what was his response, Chris? Do you remember from this morning?</s>CUOMO: Of course I do.</s>CUOMO: What's your point?</s>URBAN: So what was his responsibility?</s>CUOMO: His response was they need more time.</s>CUOMO: -- another 18 months.</s>URBAN: Right, the 18-month program, which was put in place how many years ago? Seven years ago. They still need more time. The Haitian people are great, strong, proud people. They're fabulously resilient. But the Haitian government has a lot to be desired. I don't think the president is condemning --</s>JONES: What does this have to do with an individual who wants to come to the United States being lumped into a category, a negative category because of the country he or she is from, which is what the president did?</s>URBAN: Van, listen, I believe the president misspoke. I believe the president was making gross generalizations.</s>CUOMO: Hold on. Hold on. Let's do this step by step. What do you mean that you think the president misspoke?</s>URBAN: I think the president was talking about an immigration system that should be based upon skills, skills-based immigration.</s>CUOMO: But he didn't say anything like that.</s>URBAN: So, Chris, who did he meet with immediately, a day before?</s>CUOMO: The prime minister of Norway.</s>URBAN: Right.</s>CUOMO: How does that make it OK? If he had met with the --</s>URBAN: It doesn't make OK, Chris. Chris, I'm not saying it's</s>OK -- CUOMO: I'm just saying if he had met with, you know, somebody who was the head of a government in South America, you think --</s>URBAN: What if he had said prime minister --</s>CUOMO: -- that country? I don't think so.</s>URBAN: Chris, what if he had said let's have more immigrants from India. He's a huge fan of President Modi and the Indian people. Would we have this debate right now? Would we have this debate right now?</s>JONES: Yes.</s>CUOMO: Van?</s>JONES: Yes. Let me tell you why. First of all, just to correct the record because sometimes we act like these stereotypes are real, but he was just rude about them. Just to be clear, 10 percent of white Americans have advances degrees in the United States. God bless them. Twenty five percent of Nigerians have advanced degrees.</s>URBAN: Great.</s>JONES: -- hold on. Let me finish. Thirty percent of Americans of all colors have college degrees. Forty three percent of African immigrants have college degrees. In other words --</s>URBAN: We should be admitting on a merit-based system, that we should be admitting more of those folks.</s>CUOMO: Listen, this is a legitimate argument to make, but here's the problem, fellas, and we've been dealing with this so it's good to know just be able to cut through all of it. This is not about s-hole or s- house, OK? It's semantics, OK? He used an ugly word. I say that he used an ugly word because that is what's in his head and his heart when he discusses these things. That's my take on it, but it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter because what he definitely did was he drew a preference between people from Central and South America and Africa and Norway. That's what he did. He wasn't talking about merits. He didn't talk about skills. He was talking about brown people and white people.</s>URBAN: He was talking about countries which are in the TPS program and countries that weren't, Chris. Is that a fact?</s>CUOMO: Look, I want to say that you're right. You had Lowry this morning saying, well, he was talking about the lottery system. He wasn't talking about TPS. I believe that's wrong. I believe contextually he had been put on the table a deal to help people who need TPS extension as we heard from the ambassador of Haiti this morning, they need help. They're here for a reason. That's what he was talking about. And he said, why do we need so many of these people? Why don't we have more people from Norway? How do you take that as a non-racist situation? Explain it to me, Mr. Urban.</s>URBAN: No. Chris, you can call me David. You don't have to call me Mr. Urban.</s>CUOMO: -- difference. I'm naturally deferential.</s>URBAN: OK, that's fine. You know, again, I think the president was saying, listen, to Van's point, let's take folks from Nigeria. The president didn't lump in Nigeria with the group. We're talking about TPS countries.</s>CUOMO: Is it the whole continent. Van, go ahead.</s>JONES: David, so here's the deal. If the president said something I disagree with, but he could have said this. I only want engineers. I only want doctors.</s>URBAN: Sure.</s>JONES: I want them from Nigeria. I want them from Norway. I want them from El Salvador. You sent me the engineers and the doctors, leave the rest of them out, that's not racist. It's elitist. I disagree with it. I'll fight. You don't have to have a college degree to be worthy. You don't have to be rich to be worthy. I'll fight you on it. But it's elitist. The problem is that's not what he said. That's what you're saying.</s>URBAN: You and I weren't in the room. We're relying on Senator Durbin who relayed a comment which I think was, you know, I'm not quite certain why he felt compelled to come out of a negotiation to report to the world --</s>JONES: But here's the Rubicon that we have crossed. We've crossed the Rubicon now where even people like myself, I've really tried not to say he's racist. I've said he's racially intolerant. I said that --</s>URBAN: I know and</s>I -- JONES: But at this point you now have crossed the Rubicon where in the privacy of a private meeting, he left the impression with a bunch of people that he was -- forget the curse word -- that he was putting a whole group of people, a whole continent in a negative light. That is -- if that is not racist, then the word has no more meaning. And now you have that along with all the other examples. I don't see how anybody at this point can escape the conclusion regretfully that this man seems to have a racist disposition, and it's sad to say it. I've given him every break you can. But on this one, you can't give the break, man. You just can't.</s>URBAN: Well, you know, it's unfortunate you feel that way, Van. I mean, I campaigned with the president in north Philadelphia. We fought for every vote in Pennsylvania, Van. We went after black votes. We went after Latino votes. We went after every vote possible.</s>JONES: I gave you credit for that. I gave you credit for that.</s>URBAN: Listen, we went to north Philly on the Friday before Labor Day, and there were more protesters in the street, right? I mean unfortunately the Clinton campaign came out and said we weren't trying to be sincere about our outreach.</s>JONES: David, let me ask you a question. What could someone say that is a racist statement in your point of view, that this president hasn't said or said something like? I mean, just help me understand what is your definition for a racist statement.</s>URBAN: Van, I think again, I agree with you. Listen, I'm not on trial here. I agree with you that what the president said was not sensitive. I agree with you it was inartful. I know this president not to be racist, and I'm telling you that the guy fought for every vote in Pennsylvania. He didn't care if you were Latino, if you were a minority of any color.</s>JONES: Let me tell you --</s>URBAN: -- by casting your vote.</s>JONES: I gave you guys credit for that, and I was warning people the whole time you guys were doing that. But here's where I think we've got to look in the mirror --</s>URBAN: So how can you say somebody who sits and campaigns and wants to lift --</s>JONES: Because votes are votes.</s>URBAN: Listen, he wants to lift all people out of poverty into a better lifestyle. How can you say that guy's a racist?</s>JONES: David, here's the deal. People want the votes that they want, but the thing is you've got to look at the totality. Here's my concern now for the Republican Party, people like yourself and other people I respect who continue to try to figure out a way to defend this stuff. I think it's more important to tell him, look, you've got to change. I'm going to tell you one thing for sure, for sure. If you look the at the entire of Haiti and all you see are people you don't want in the United States, you are putting an entire category of people in a negative light. That is the definition of racism. And we can have the argument about immigration, skills based versus TPS. We can have that argument. I will argue to say it's elitist to say you only want the people with college degrees because you wouldn't have the Kennedy's here if you had that standard. You wouldn't have the Cuomos here if you had that standard. But it's not racist. That's not an argument about racism. That's argument about elitist versus exclusivity.</s>URBAN: But unfortunately, Chris, let me make this one point quickly. Unfortunately -- listen, this is a point that's made against every Republican president. President Bush 41 --</s>CUOMO: Not like this.</s>URBAN: Listen, Chris, hear me out.</s>CUOMO: Go ahead.</s>URBAN: Willie Horton ad, terrible, racism. President 43, Katrina, terrible. John McCain voted against MLK Day, terrible, racist. I mean, every Republican, it's trotted out and beaten.</s>CUOMO: But you have to take each one on their face. Look, let's just look at what we're dealing with right now, OK? You and others are arguing, hey, we weren't there. Listen, we know what was said from Durbin. We know how Graham communicated it. We know what he said to Tim Scott before this was even really out there. Jeff Flake, same thing. What happens when we went to the White House? Raj Shaw, what was his statement? No pushback on the language, OK? And why do I say his name slowly like that? Because another part of the distraction here is I forgot Raj's last name this morning. I apologize for that. And then there wound up being a counter-narrative. Well, that makes you racist. See, -- but, Dave, it's not helpful.</s>URBAN: I'm not saying that, Chris. Listen --</s>CUOMO: I know you're not saying, but it's being said. It's being said. So instead of having this conversation that you want to have, and even Lowry wanted to have this morning, which is should we do merit based, not look at the countries anymore, has the time for unskilled labor passed? All valid arguments to have. But instead you're saying -- hold on, Dave. But instead this is what's being said. You guys are lying. He didn't use that word.</s>URBAN: I'm not saying that.</s>CUOMO: And now you got Senator Cotton and Senator Perdue, who by mistake, I called Will this morning instead of Dave. I wonder if that means I'm anti-white. But you have those two guys saying we never heard it. So now it's about fake news again. Now it's about a false narrative instead of this real conversation you say you want to have.</s>URBAN: I'm not alleging it's fake news. I'm just saying what Van makes a very specific, very detailed narrative, and he wasn't there. I'm saying you can't simply do that. You can't.</s>CUOMO: But, Dave, what was the response from the White House? It was never said. They're using the wrong word. Durbin is a liar.</s>URBAN: Am I saying, that Chris? I'm not saying that.</s>CUOMO: But do you condone what it is doing.</s>URBAN: Do I condone what?</s>CUOMO: What's coming out of the White House in terms of this counter- narrative. They never pushed back. A White House staffer said that they liked the message. They thought the base would go with it. Now everybody is lying.</s>URBAN: I think the message should be we should re-examine -- here's what the message should be, Chris. We want a DACA bill. The president has said this, right? The president said he wants to sign a clean DACA bill. Let's have DACA plus some border money. "The Washington Post", right, the very conservative Washington Post-opined that would be a great deal for Democrats. They should take it. So we should narrow the focus back to where it was, to where we begin.</s>CUOMO: Good.</s>URBAN: Tone the rhetoric down on all this, right?</s>CUOMO: Well, not all of it, but I certainly don't think you should tell people that they're lying when they're just bring things up --</s>URBAN: I'm not saying you're lying.</s>CUOMO: I know you're not but you're here to represent what's coming out of the White House.</s>URBAN: Do we want to get to a solution this country? We want to talk about --</s>CUOMO: Absolutely. So let's do this.</s>URBAN: So, right. The question is how do we get there? How do we get there? How do we move forward?</s>CUOMO: You know how we do it? We have the foresight to have guys who are really smart coming from opposite directions somewhat like you two to discuss it. And you know what? I'm going to give it a second block. Let's take a quick break. Dave, Van, please stay. We do have to talk about what could be this deal, what should be this deal, what actually matters. Let's have that conversation and strip away all this B.S. about who's lying and who isn't. Up next, they can argue about, and we're also going to have to figure out what our elected leaders are going to do about this problem. We'll have Van and Dave take it on, but we're also going to have the leader of the Congressional Black Caucus. Now, he's calling for President Trump to be censured, but there's also this theory, this rumor that maybe they'll boycott the State of the Union. Is that even possible? Next.