Kushner Discussed Secret Communications Line with Kremlin, Didn't Disclose Phone Calls to Russian Ambassador; Comey Acted on Russian Intel He Knew Was Fake During Clinton E-mail Investigation
ANA CABRERA, CNN ANCHOR: You are in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Ana Cabrera, in New York. Great to have you with us. Let's start with breaking news on CNN. The chaos that awaits President Trump after he arrives back home in just a few hours is the latest and potentially the most damaging development in the growing investigation of the Trump administration's ties with Russia. The news involves the president's son-in-law and close advisor, Jared Kushner. The sources confirm to CNN that Kushner discussed a plan after Election Day to set up a secret communication channel for the White House to communicate with the Kremlin. That source tells us Kushner talked about this idea with Russia's ambassador to the U.S., a man that current and former intelligence officials regard as of one of Moscow's top spies. That secret line was never set up. It is not clear in Kushner brought it up or if it was suggested by the ambassador. The idea was this, Kushner and the son-to-be-named national security advisor, Michael Flynn, would have been able to talk to Russian military officials directly, secretly, and unmonitored through a channel set up at Russian diplomatic facilities. One other thing, Reuters is reporting that Jared Kushner failed to disclose at least two phone calls with the Russian ambassador between April and November of last year, conversations that should have been included in his security clearance paperwork. Meantime, the FBI is also very interested in a data operation that may have helped Donald Trump win the White House. That data operation was supervised by Jared Kushner. So much to pull apart on this story. CNN Washington correspondent, Brian Nobles, is in Washington, and CNN international correspondent, Claire Sebastian, is in Moscow. Ryan, to you first. Air Force One is in the air, President Trump will be back in the United States tonight. What administration officials are saying of these developments involving Jared Kushner.</s>BRIAN NOBLES, CNN WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Not a whole lot, Ana. This speaks to the larger message about the White House of these lengthy trips the president had overseas. They conducted no significant press conference on camera. The president took few if any questions from reporters. As a result, we haven't been able to ask direct questions about these controversies swirling around Jared Kushner. This morning, two White House senior officials, Gary Cohn, the senior economic adviser, and General H.R. McMasters, the national security advisor, did take questions from reporters. It wasn't on camera but they did record what they said. And they were asked about Jared Kushner and this is how they respond.</s>GARY COHN, SENIOR ECONOMIC ADVISOR: We are not going to comment on Jared. We're just not going to comment.</s>UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Generally speaking, General, would you be concerned if somebody on the national security council or in this administration were to seek a back-channel communication system with the Russian embassy and with the Kremlin? Would that generally concern you not to address Kushner specifically but in general terms?</s>GEN. H.R. MCMASTER, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR: No. I mean we have back channel communications with any number of countries. So generally speaking, about back channel communications, what that allows you to do is communicate in a discreet manner, so it doesn't predispose you to any content or conversation or anything. I would not be concerned about it.</s>NOBLES: Now, as for Jared Kushner himself, he has not responded directly to this report about attempting to set up back-channel communication with the Russian government. He did respond to the Reuters report through his attorney. His attorney saying that they are not sure specifically of the phone calls or conversations that Reuters is speaking about. Ana, we are not getting a lot of answers from the White House about this specific issue, and a lot of these questions are going to be waiting for them as they arrive here in Washington tonight.</s>CABRERA: No doubt about it. Thank you, Ryan. I want you to stay with me. And bring in Claire Sebastian who is in Moscow for us. Russia's foreign minister has responded to these reports. What is the Kremlin saying?</s>CLAIRE SEBASTIAN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Nothing officially from the Kremlin, Ana, as of yet. What we got was a text message of the foreign ministry today saying, essentially, calling that story by "The Washington Post" McCarthyism or simple internal political squabbles. No official confirmation or denial the story is true. We press the foreign ministry spokeswoman on whether they were aware of this request or suggestion by Jared Kushner of a secret channel of communication to be set up through Russia's embassy in Washington. She would not be drawn on that. We assume that they were aware of this since this report came from an intercept from Sergey Kislyak, the Russian ambassador to the U.S. She would not comment on that. We have no comment, as I say, from the Kremlin. It's interesting that Russian tactics in recent weeks, there are various stories coming out of these stories coming out about links to the Trump administration and Russia have been deflect, dismiss and even deride the reports and point them as a political chaos in Washington. And this was no different. We're sensing an increasing exasperation. The foreign ministry spokesperson warning U.S. media earlier in the week to not spread lies about the Russian ambassador to the U.S. -- Ana?</s>CABRERA: Claire Sebastian, Ryan Nobles, thank you to both of you. Take a listen to how former CIA Director Michael Hayden reacted to Jared Kushner discussing this secret line to Moscow.</s>MICHAEL SMERCONISH, CNN HOST, SMERCONISH: General Hayden, is this nefarious or is this naivety?</s>GEN. MICHAEL HAYDEN, FORMER CIA DIRECTOR: Well, Michael, right now, i'm going with naivety, and that's not particularly comforting for me. What manner of ignorance, chaos, hubris, suspicion and contempt would you have to have to think that doing this with the Russian ambassador was a good or appropriate idea? Again, naivety, but it does not make me feel good about many things.</s>CABRERA: Let's talk more about all of this with California Democrat who said Kushner should be prosecuted for not disclosing all of his Russian contacts on his security clearance form. Joining us, Congressman Ted Lieu, a member of the House Judiciary Committee. Thank you so much for joining us, Congressman. What is your reaction to this latest reporting on Jared Kushner?</s>REP. TED LIEU, (D), CALIFORNIA: Thank you, Ana, for your question. Jared Kushner should resign and he should be prosecuted for lying on his security clearance forms, if these reports are true. We know on his first security form he failed to disclose the meeting with the Russian ambassador. That was a significant meeting where they discussed secret back-channel communications. You would not forget about that meeting on his security clearance form. When he was told to revise the form, he lied again, because Reuters reported there were two additional contacts with the Russians that he failed to disclose.</s>CABRERA: The White House has admitted to the communication that happened in December, a meeting of some sort. Back to what we are hearing in terms of the reports of "The Washington Post" and what officials, I should say, are confirming to CNN that this back-channel communication line was indeed discussed, what do you make of the conversation and the content of that conversation?</s>LIEU: I think General McMaster is misleading the public. The issue is not having a back-channel communication with another country. The issue is that Jared Kushner wanted this done with Russian equipment at a Russian embassy. The only reason he would want to do that is to hide those communications from U.S. intelligence. It makes you wonder whose side is he on and what is he hiding.</s>CABRERA: This communication happened between Kislyak, the Russian ambassador, and Moscow. It was picked up in an intercept by U.S. intelligence, in which Kislyak reported to Moscow that it was Jared Kushner who suggested this line of communication. That never happened. But is it possible or have you considered the fact that it is possible that Russia may have been lying about this communication all together in an attempt to mislead U.S. officials if they believe this U.S. officials were listening to their conversations.</s>LIEU: This whole incident, again, shows that Russia is not America's ally. They tried to undermine our elections last year and they're trying to undermine our democracy this year. For a Jared Kushner to not have disclosed this meeting on his security clearance form, that's simply a violation of federal law. I have filled out SF86 security clearance forms and right on the form it says, if you make a false statement, you are liable for punishment up to five years.</s>CABRERA: We put up a tweet, in fact, where would you reference that specifically. You talk about false statements punishable by imprisonment. Here is what Kushner's attorney is telling CNN in response to the Reuters report, that he didn't disclose at least, a couple of phone calls between April and November. This is from Jamie Gorlick, his attorney. He said, quote, Mr. Kushner participated in thousands of calls in this time period. He has no recollection of the calls as described. We have asked Reuters for the dates of such alleged calls, so we can look into it and respond but we have not received such information." Congressman, what if he does not remember those additional contacts?</s>LIEU: The most significant takeaway from the attorney's statement is they don't deny the CNN reporting or "Washington Post" reporting about the meeting with the Russian ambassador. He failed to disclose that on his first security clearance form. That's a violation of the law. On the second security clearance form, when he was told to revise it, he fails to disclose these Reuters contacts, that the Reuters talked about. Why we are calling Russian ambassadors? Why is the administration doing that? If you were to do that, Jared Kushner would have remembered those phone conversations.</s>CABRERA: Michael Hayden suggested that it was naivety, the reason behind some of these. Could it be that? Do you agree?</s>LIEU: Suggesting a back-channel communication with Russians who are not our allies maybe it's because Jared Kushner is naive, but to do it, to say that we need to use Russian equipment at the Russian embassy, now he's trying to hide something. And separate from that, there was pure lying on his security clearance forms. Those are serious federal offenses.</s>CABRERA: Congressman, have you discussed any of this new reporting with some of your colleagues on the two committees investigating Russian ties and meddling in the election, House Intelligence Committee or House Oversight Committee?</s>LIEU: No yet. These are breaking stories that just occurred less than 24 hours ago. Only in a Trump administration that you have breaking news that's interrupted by more stories.</s>CABRERA: What would advise to your colleagues?</s>LIEU: They continue forward with the congressional investigation. I am pleased there is a special counsel, Robert Mueller, who's investigating not just Trump's Russian collusion but any facts that rises from it. The significance of today is it does not matter what happens with the Trump/Russia collusion investigation. You got separate federal crimes being committed by Jared Kushner because of his lying on his security clearance forms.</s>CABRERA: You are accusing him of lying? That implies intent, does it not?</s>LIEU: Absolutely. When you have a major meeting with the Russia ambassador, talking about secret back-channel communications using Russian equipment, you don't forget it on your security clearance form. That is a lie. He intentionally failed to disclose that. That's a federal crime.</s>CABRERA: And in your mind, is this a game changer?</s>LIEU: It is. But keep in mind, the last few weeks have been a game changer, a turning point for America. We watched the president of United States commit obstruction of justice in real time. He fired Director James Comey, he went on national TV saying he did it because the Russian probe was on his mind. Now the White House no longer denies that he did it to relieve pressure on him from the FBI Russia investigation.</s>CABRERA: Congressman Ted Lieu, stay with me. More to discuss. Another bombshell report on how Russia may have infiltrated the FBI with fake intelligence and how it impacted then-Director James Comey's decision to go around the Justice Department with his announcement in the Clinton e-mail investigation last summer. Stay with us.</s>CABRERA: We now know a controversial move by James Comey was sparked in part by fake Russian intellig3ence. That's what multiple officials involved tell CNN. CNN's Dana Bash has the detail on what caused Comey to act on some information he knew was false during the 2016 presidential campaign.</s>DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: CNN has learned that then-FBI Director James Comey knew that a critical piece of Russian information related to the Hillary Clinton e-mail investigation was fake, but he felt he needed to take action anyway because he was concerned if the information became public, it would undermine the investigation and the Justice Department itself. This, according to multiple sources talking it my colleagues, Shimon Prokupecz, Gloria Borger, and myself. These were a major factor in Comey deciding to publicly declare that Clinton probe was over last summer without consulting then-Attorney General Loretta Lynch. You may remember that earlier this week "The Washington Post" reported on this intelligence and doubts about its credibility. The fact that Comey felt he had to act based on Russian disinformation is a stark example of how Russian interference impacted decision making at the highest levels of the U.S. Government during the 2016 campaign. The Russian information at issue claimed to show that then-Attorney General Loretta Lynch had been compromised in the Clinton investigation because of e-mails purported e-mails between then DNC Chair Debbie Wasserman-Schultz and a political operative, saying Lynch would maybe the FBI Clinton probe go away. According to one government official, in classified briefings, Comey told lawmakers that he was afraid the information would drop and undermine the investigation, but Comey did not tell lawmakers he doubted the accuracy of the information, even in a classified setting. According to sources close to Comey the FBI director felt that the validity of the information didn't matter because if it became public they had no way to discredit it without burning sources and methods. Think about the chain of events this helped set off. When Comey held his press conference in July of 2016 announcing no charges against Clinton, he took the extraordinary, and many people say, inappropriate step of calling her extremely careless. Clinton aides are convinced that her reputation was damaged with voters and she never recovered. That probably wouldn't have happened without Russian interference. Also, talking to many officials on Capitol Hill and elsewhere, dissemination of fake information is still a major issue. Multiple sources tell us that Russia is still trying to spread false information in order to cloud and confuse ongoing investigations. Dana Bash, CNN, Washington.</s>CABRERA: So the plot thickens. We are back with Congressman Ted Lieu, a California Democrat. Congressman, thank you for staying with us. After everything we learned and what Dana just reported, did Comey make the right call in holding that press conference publicly ending the investigation without the Justice Department's approval?</s>LIEU: I disagree what many of Director Comey's actions last year. I cannot second guess his integrity or judgment. He knew that if this fake Russia e-mail got out to the public that the Trump's campaign and major concerned media sites were going to promote it and disseminate it and promote the fake Russian propaganda. That's what they did last year with all sorts of fake stories. There was no way the FBI would be able to respond. I can understand why Director Comey did the action that he did last year.</s>CABRERA: Would you have done the same thing?</s>LIEU: I would not. I would have stuck to the FBI's traditional policy of not talking to the press about ongoing investigations. I think that's what he should have done. Again, it is hard to second guess his judgment because we saw last year a lot of fake news that the Russians put out that were repeated by conservative media sites.</s>CABRERA: Congressman, the reason Comey gave for publicly holding that controversial press conference was the infamous tarmac meeting of Bill Clinton and Loretta Lynch. Watch.</s>JAMES COMEY, FORMER FBI DIRECTOR: I struggled as we got close to the end of it with a number of things that had gone on, some of which I can't talk about yet, that made me worried that the department leadership could not credibly complete the investigation and decline prosecution without grievance damage to the American peoples' confidence in the justice system. And the capper was, and I am not picking on the attorney general, Loretta Lynch, who I like very much, but her meeting with President Clinton on that airplane was the capper for me.</s>CABRERA: In retrospect, what's your take on that?</s>LIEU: There was nothing false about what he just said. Because at the beginning, he did reference that there are things that you cannot talk about yet. Their meeting probably had some sway in the decision making. Clearly, this Russian intelligence fake document did have a tremendous sway over his decision making, and it is unfortunate that the Russians were so successful last year, and they're still attacking the U.S. this year with fake information.</s>CABRERA: Multiple sources tell CNN, until this day, that Russia is trying to spread that false information as you mentioned, inside the U.S. through elected officials and American intelligence and law enforcement operatives, and still nor attempt to cloud and confuse the ongoing investigation. Right now, could there be other fake documents flowing around Washington and possibly influencing probes?</s>LIEU: Absolutely. That's why I am calling not just for a special counsel, which is great happening, but also because we need now commission to look at exactly what we just said, the Russian operations that are happened last year and continuing this year to under mind U.S. democracy and the elections.</s>CABRERA: What do you do about that?</s>LIEU: We first need the non-fake media to continue promoting real stories. We need elected officials not to propagate what they know is fake Russia news. We need our intelligence services, the FBI and others, to step up their game and really fight back against the Russian intelligence operations that have been so successful both last year and now.</s>CABRERA: Congressman Ted Lieu, thank you for your time.</s>LIEU: Thank you.</s>CABRERA: After the attack in Manchester, security is being ramped up around the U.S. We are live at the Indy 500 this weekend where fans can expect tight security. And the vice president is also expected to attend. We'll take you there, live, in the CNN NEWSROOM.