13 Men Charged in Plot to Kidnap Michigan Governor
BERMAN: This morning, new details about the alleged plot to kidnap Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer. The FBI says the suspects conducted extensive surveillance of Whitmer's vacation home and they held multiple training sessions at this home in the rural town of Munith. 13 men have been charged, including the founders of the armed extremist group, Wolverine Watchmen. Joining us now is Mary McCord. She is a law professor at Georgetown and a former Acting Assistant Attorney General for National Security at the Department of Justice. Professor, I'm so glad you're with us this morning, because you write extensively about something that I think is so important to understand. People incorrectly use the phrase, militia, to describe some of these groups that do this. This isn't a militia. This is, you know, a bunch of criminals, you know, a bunch of criminals acting as terrorists. And the distinction there is important. Why?</s>MARY MCCORD, FROMER ACTING ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR NATIONAL SECURITY, JUSTICE DEPARTMENT: The distinction is important because in federal law and state law and according to our history, militia, the only lawful militia is a state militia. Militia, as a term, refers to the body of people, able-bodied residents that are available to be called forth by the government in defense of the state. So back before even our independence, there was an antipathy towards having standing armies. Instead, the colonies, and later, eventually, the United States and the individual states preferred to have this available of body to be called forth in service of the state and in defense of the state. But once called forth, they report through the state. Now, over the course of time, we, of course, have developed our National Guards, which every state has, which is, in fact, the state militia. But there is no authority under federal or state law for groups of individuals, such as these groups in Michigan and elsewhere around the country, to sort of self-call themselves forth or self-deploy as a militia.</s>BERMAN: Yes. And I think they do it to wrap themselves in this sort of quasi-legitimacy. And I think it colors the overall discussion and it may add to the danger.</s>MCCORD: I think you're right and I think it's a term we should really stop using. I don't use it without saying unlawful before it. We could call them vigilantes. We could call them paramilitary groups. And in some cases, like the cases of the Wolverine warriors and others that were involved in this plot, they certainly were plotting terrorist activity. So there's many other terms that I think would be more appropriate. And sometimes they do rely also, you know, falsely, on the Second Amendment to suggest they have authority, because they have a right to bear arms under the Second Amendment and maybe they're in an open carry state like Michigan. But the Second Amendment also doesn't provide them with that right. The Supreme Court says it projects an individual's right to bear arms for one's own individual self-defense. The Supreme Court, as far back as 1886, has been made clear that it does not protect the right to group together as paramilitary organizations and thought it was without question that states can prohibit that, and they have.</s>BERMAN: Why then does it seem that, in some cases, that these groups are allowed to exist for a time?</s>MCCORD: It's frustrating to me as somebody who has been looking at this for several years now, that so many of these unlawful armed groups have been sort of allowed to engage in training and exercises. And we've seen them deploying more and more, particularly in the face of racial justice protests, ostensibly to protect property against what is often false rumors of violent anarchists coming. But they have no authority to do that. They have no authority usurp that legitimate law enforcement power. And I think part of the problem is that there has been such incredible mythology about the Second Amendment and a mythology that's widely and deeply held, including among law enforcement, that somehow this is actually constitutionally protected. And it's time to correct the record on that, particularly as we're seeing more and more of these groups come out very publicly in ways that could be very dangerous.</s>BERMAN: Look, it's a blatant misreading on the Constitution and the Second Amendment, a well-regulated militia. The very first words, modify it right from the beginning. There is no ambiguity there at all. I want to ask you about the attorney general, William Barr, who has not spoken publicly as far as we can tell about this. He did finally have an aide come out and say, oh, he condemns all of these groups, but he hasn't and said squat about this since they were arrested for a plot to kidnap a sitting governor. And this is not a shy attorney general, professor. This attorney general will go anywhere in the country, you can see pictures on the screen here, to announce action against urban violence or what he considers to be leftist violence. But what's the impact of his refusal to take -- make a public voice or a public statement here?</s>MCCORD: Well, I have to say, as somebody who spent almost 25 years at the Department of Justice, it's very disappointing to me that the attorney general would be so silent about this very, very serious plotting. And, you know, as you just indicated, he has been very vocal about the left and violence from the left, proclaiming almost from day one after George Floyd that all -- any acts of violence at any protest activity had to be the result of Antifa or the left. And, yes, there is violence on both sides. There have been, you know, individual acts of violence, but there have been thousands of peaceful demonstrations across the country with no violence, whatsoever. And more importantly, to your point, currently, this plot is the most significant plot that we've seen over the course of many months now. And it's -- as you indicated, it was to kidnap and kill a sitting, elected governor. That is something that would have been, the investigation of this, in my experience, when I was the principal deputy and later the acting assistant attorney general for National Security, this is something what we would have been discussing and we would have been briefed by the FBI for months before the actual takedown.</s>BERMAN: A plot to kidnap a sitting governor, that in and of itself is just such a stunning statement. Professor McCord, a pleasure and real education to speak with you this morning. Thanks for your time.</s>MCCORD: Thank you. A pleasure to be here.</s>BERMAN: Republicans racing to confirm Supreme Court nominee Amy Coney Barrett by Election Day. We're joined by one of the senators on the Judiciary Committee, next.