Have the Stakes Become Too High in Youth Sports?
AUGUSTINE COSTIN, VICTIM'S FATHER: Of course, they held the head, they were holding his father's head when the blood was coming out of the father's head -- and asked the man to stop kicking him.</s>BOBBIE BATTISTA, HOST: Rough play on the ice, one dad is dead, the other accused of manslaughter after a fight breaks out during their kids' pick-up hockey game in Lynnfield, Massachusetts.</s>MARTHA COAKLEY, MIDDLESEX COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: The altercation grew out of the criticism between two adults about what was occurring on the ice.</s>GERARD BUTLER, PROSECUTOR: During this game, some of the children were checking one another, and the defendant became enraged.</s>COSTIN: How would you like to see a father being killed and seeing that the man is killing him, pleading to stop hitting my father, don't hit him anymore. It's a terrible thing.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When it is over, like, a hockey game like that, or hockey practice, whatever it was, you know, it seems almost ridiculous.</s>BATTISTA: Though this incident is extreme, the question remains: Have the stakes become too high in youth sports, and why are some parents turning their competitive fire into sideline violence? Michael Costin, a 40-year-old father was buried yesterday, allegedly beaten to death by another dad during their son's pick-up hockey game. Mourners made a point of saying that it is time for parents to take a good look at themselves and their competitive instincts. If you haven't seen it for yourself, you have heard about the way that some parents behave when their children play at sports. We will let you tell some of those stories today. But first, here to talk about this with us are Bob Katz, a writer who addresses youth sports, he is working on a book called "Crunch Time For Dad: Fathers, Sons and Organized Sports." Also with us is Gregg Heinzmann, director of the Youth Sports Research Council at Rutgers University. And on the phone with us is Tom Grilk, a friend of Michael Costin's. And, Tom, I'd like to start with you. You were not at this game where this incident occurred because this was just a pick-up match, correct?</s>TOM GRILK, SEAN COSTIN'S COACH: That's correct.</s>BATTISTA: But you are a friend or were a friend of Michael Costin's?</s>GRILK: That's right, and I have coached his children in hockey and in baseball and -- as recently as right now. Sean, his youngest boy is a member of a baseball team that we have going here in Massachusetts.</s>BATTISTA: And your reaction to all of this? You had to have been just incredibly shocked.</s>GRILK: Of course. It was one of horror, first that just the fact that such a thing could occur, and then that we lose someone who was a lovely gentleman to whom we all entrusted our children from time to time at various games, and ultimately a reaction of great sorrow and great worry as we look forward. The direction for all of us here is to put the anger behind us and try to move forward and do what we can to help a woman who now has four little kids to raise, she of some 70 years of age.</s>BATTISTA: Whether extreme or not, Tom, do you see a lot of incidents or do you think there is an increase in the incidents of violence in kids' sports?</s>GRILK: One sees occasional outbreaks of anger or too much emotion on the part of some parents. I don't see it very often. One should see it never, but I've never seen it break out to this degree. I suppose there's a lesson for all of to us learn to restrain ourselves and to be more modified in our approach to this kind of thing, and I'm sure that many of us will try to do that very thing.</s>BATTISTA: What do you think then was at the core of this incident?</s>GRILK: Nothing that has anything to do with children's sports, I'm sure. I don't know what was in the head of the person who did what he did, but it had to go well beyond anything to do with sports, the kind of thing that could have happened on a street corner or in a bar or anywhere else. It was human emotion, not children's sports that were at work here.</s>BATTISTA: Well, maybe that's the problem, you know, rage, uncontrolled rage, we see that in a number of areas in our society today, whether it is on the road or on airplanes, anywhere, you know, that we can lash out at somebody we don't know.</s>GRILK: I'm sure that's true, and it happens in the roads through the anonymity of looking through the glass of your automobile rather than being right next to somebody. And I think that this one played out initially in the same way with someone yelling over the glass at a hockey rink rather than being right next to somebody. Unfortunately, it devolved into -- what it turned into was someone being dead, and one of the things we are talking to our kids and all the other kids about is what happens when a little bit of anger suddenly erupts into a horror like this, they need to learn to deal with that kind of anger in a very different way.</s>BATTISTA: All right, Tom Grilk, thanks very much for joining us today. We appreciate your time.</s>GRILK: Happy to do it.</s>BATTISTA: Bob, we all know that there is nothing new about parents overreacting to their children's sports activities, but you think there's something else at work these days. What do you mean?</s>BOB KATZ, WRITER: I believe there is. And I do want to commend the gentleman who just spoke, that I'm sure there were a very distinct set of circumstances that led to the tragedy at the ice rink in Reading. That said, this is, as I believe the gentleman suggested, an opportunity to assess and maybe re-evaluate some of the dimensions of youth sports, whether or not this particular incident can be causally linked to a larger phenomenon. My -- it's my belief that we are in a culture now that is awash with the metaphor of sports, sports as the living symbol of how to succeed and by inference how to succeed in life. It's a notion that's promulgated, you know, most obviously by sportscasters and sports pages, but more than that it's trickled down or up, if you want to say that, to the business community where you see corporate executives blithely attributing sports metaphors as being fundamental to their company's fourth quarter or third quarter success. The point being that success is -- that sports is the metaphor for success and that parents are increasingly buying into that concept and then I believe erroneously applying it to what ought to be a far more innocent endeavor, namely games for 8, 9 and 10-year-olds that are organized but ought to have a focus that has absolutely nothing to do with adult definitions of achievement and success.</s>BATTISTA: Gregg, you don't necessarily agree that there is an escalating trend in the number of incidents in violence in sports, but at the same time do you agree with what Bob has just said about the culture that we are living in?</s>GREGG HEINZMANN, YOUTH SPORTS RESEARCH COUNCIL: Well, certainly there are a number of things going on in society that should make us all concerned. You know, I just happened to copy out of today's newspaper the list of what's on today's talk shows as entertainment for our daytime viewers and some of the topics are absolutely disgusting. So there definitely is a moral decline. But some of the things Bob says are right on target, and I read his op-ed today and I think it's excellent. We need to kind of give some shape to this syndrome he's talking about which is what sports psychologists call identification. It's the strong emotional love that we have for our children, and as a new parent myself I understand this. It's difficult for people who don't have kids to really understand what we are talking about, but I have a quick story to tell you that kind of illustrates what I mean. A few years ago, my wife and I had a birthday party for my 3- year-old and we took her out to one of these restaurants where they have the arcade and the games for the kids and they serve pizza. They brought out the birthday cake for my 3-year-old to blow out the candles, and someone said, close your eyes, cover your eyes. Well, after awhile, as you might guess, she wasn't doing very well -- I challenge you or any adult to try to blow out birthday candles without being able to see the cake -- but the point I'm trying to make is when she struggled and had difficulty doing that, my reaction as a parent was to step in because I felt the humiliation that she might have been feeling not being able to do that -- that's what we talk about when we say identification -- so I blew out the candles.</s>BATTISTA: This identification that you are talking about, is this something new or do you think that this is something that's always been in our youth sports culture?</s>HEINZMANN: No, it's always been there and it doesn't apply just to sports, it's a generic term that describes the strong emotional love and bonding that parents have for their children. And when a father perceives that his son is being unfairly treated or even physically abused out on the ice he tends to react in ways that we find unfathomable, and I'm not trying to justify this behavior. I wasn't there and I don't know what happened, per se, but if you understand this concept a little better it starts to explain why this might have happened.</s>BATTISTA: I want to bring another voice into the conversation now. On the line with us is Richard Lapchick, who is founder and director of Northeastern University Center for the Study of Sport in Society. And I think there are a number of people out there, Richard, who do think that this is an escalating trend, that there are more and more incidents of it and that sooner or later it was going to come to something like this.</s>RICHARD LAPCHICK, CENTER FOR STUDY OF SPORT IN SOCIETY, NORTHEASTERN UNIVERSITY: Well, I would be one of those people. We get reports at least on a monthly basis of some form of parent getting involved either with another parent, with a coach, with a high school principal, with an umpire and that's not talking about coaches getting involved in physical violence. There's a story breaking right now as we speak in Miami about an assistant coach of the Police Athletic League baseball team in Hollywood, Florida, who punched an umpire and broke his jaw. And he's surrendering this afternoon being charged with a felony. And the sad thing is that when I hear stories like this, I'm no longer surprised by it, because we hear them so often. And I think that in a lot of ways what happened in Reading was an inevitable consequence of the escalation of violence that's taking place across our society. And you know, we see more violence in the workplace, we see more violence in educational institutions. The parents of children are going to be subject to that violence as they're growing up as, you know, our high school students now, there are 2,000 acts -- 2,000 students assaulted every hour of every day according to the National Education Association in high schools. Well, those high-school kids are going to become parents at some point and...</s>BATTISTA: Let me ask you, where do you think all this rage is coming from?</s>LAPCHICK: Well, I think that part of the rage had been there for a long period of time but had been expressed in much more subdued ways. But as violence has become more acceptable in certain parts of our society and a kind of normal response, and it cuts across -- I think one of the important things about Reading is that this happened in an affluent community. I think there had been misconception that a lot of the youth sport violence was taking place in urban areas, which was never really true. It's taking place across economic and racial and geographic lines. And I think that there are a lot of people out there who just, as Bob and Gregg have both said so much in their own children, that they, you know, go beyond this identification and take on forms that as Gregg said that we would never of in other circumstances in our life, but in this particular emotional moment gets swept away with a response that is almost unpredictable for the individual but just happens.</s>BATTISTA: I've got to take a break at this particular time. Baseball hall-of-famer Jim Palmer will join us just a little later in the show. Also, as we take a break, please take part in our TALKBACK LIVE online viewer vote at cnn.com/talkback. Today's question: Have youth sports become too competitive? We'll be back in just a second.</s>BATTISTA: In January, police in Washington were called after a coach broke a parent's nose with a head-butt after a wrestling match between 6-year-olds. In April, a former police officer in Pennsylvania was convicted of soliciting assault for offering a 10-year-old Little League pitcher to hit an opposing player with the ball. And in May, the father of a hockey player put an official in a headlock during a high school tournament in Texas and had to be forcibly removed from the rink. All right. Let me get the audience in here a little bit. Joey's on the phone from Wisconsin -- Michigan rather. Joey, go ahead.</s>JOEY: Yes, I just want to say that I think the dynamics of winning versus losing in children's sports should be left out. The magnitude of winning is way out of control. They're trying to make major leaguers out of kids, and that is no fun for the kids.</s>BATTISTA: Bob, how do you do that? How do you downplay the winning and losing aspects of sports?</s>KATZ: Well, I'm not an expert on the dynamics of how to structure the games. I think it's obvious to any parent or casual observer that situations like intensified playoff competitions and inner-town or even inner-state rivalries certainly takes the games in the wrong direction or intensifies it sometimes way past the point where parents or children are able to adequately cope with it. But the caller makes a point that interests me a lot, and it's something I alluded to briefly in The New York Times op-ed I wrote today, which is that for children the games, whereas they might say that they have -- that they want to win, as indeed they all do, ultimately the values they most aspire to are having fun, making friends, gaining if only inch by inch increasing competency with the various skills that they're pursuing. And it is oftentimes, and too oftentimes, the adults who -- who place on top of this their value system that places winning for most.</s>BATTISTA: Well, let me ask...</s>KATZ: One of the things -- OK.</s>BATTISTA: Are the parents -- let's discuss that here momentarily. Are a lot of these parents living vicariously, Gregg, through their kids?</s>HEINZMANN: I suppose that that is occurring and it's something we need to be concerned about as educators and people who are concerned about youth sports. Bob hits it right on the head, though. The incident up in Massachusetts was not a championship game obviously. It was a pick-up game, which makes it even more inexplicable. But the fact of the matter is to begin to look at the solutions to these problems, one of the things we need to do is differentiate between professional sports and youth sports. Professional sports in its pure form is a business, it's entertainment. People's livelihoods ride on wins and losses. Too often parents and others use that model and place it on top of youth sports, and their functions and their purposes are totally difficult. As Bob says it's supposed to be an opportunity for kids to have fun, to socialize, to make friends, et cetera.</s>BATTISTA: Yes, we just got an e-mail on that, as a matter of fact. It says: "As a former National League umpire I am well aware of the violence in sports. Professional players and umpires show tempers on the field. It does not give a good example to our youth and adults."</s>HEINZMANN: Clearly they want to be like Mike, to coin a phrase.</s>BATTISTA: Right. We'll talk to Jim Palmer a little bit more about that when he gets down here. But let me go to Trisha (ph), who had an interesting comment, too, about causes here.</s>TRISHA: I was just thinking on a larger scale there's so much at stake in sports with scholarship available to children who are excelling at a certain sport, and you know, even millions of dollar contracts that are offered to these children. So the parents want to get their children a higher education or get them million-dollar contracts, so they push and push and push and push.</s>BATTISTA: Let me have Richard comment on that, about how much the pressure of college scholarships plays into this.</s>LAPCHICK: Well, it's definitely a factor, but I think what we try to do in our programs at the center at Northeastern is we do work with parents in our urban youth sports program, let them understand that the odds against a youth sport player getting a college scholarship for sports are a thousand to one. The odds against them making it to the pros are 100,000 to one, that this is not -- that this is an unrealistic dream for them to pursue, not to discourage them from becoming fine athletes, but to make sure they understand that they have to have a balance life, including balancing academics and athletics, if they want their children to be successful.</s>KATZ: If I can just interject.</s>BATTISTA: Yes.</s>KATZ: To follow up on what Richard said, I think it's true that only the most diluted of parents even for a flicker of time comes to the belief that what they are training their son or daughter for is Olympic glory or the big leagues. But many, many, many parents have bought into the idea that sports are indeed an accurate indicator, sports as played at the youth level, can indicate the child's aptitude for some future success and possibly glory. And it is that what I believe to be largely mistaken belief that is adding fuel to the fire that is always there when parents watch from the sidelines as their kids are engaged in oftentimes heated or perilous sort of contests. Do you agree with that, Gregg.</s>HEINZMANN: Well, Bobbie, to some extent I do. I was thinking about another issue here, and that is that is we missed an opportunity up here in Massachusetts to educate the kids who were assembled about the proper way to handle a dispute. Not only did they witness a violent act, but those coaches and those parents missed an opportunity to teach those kids by example that when you have a disagreement with someone, you talk it out and you resolve it in a peaceful, nonviolent way. So not only were they witnesses to this horrible act, but there was also a missed opportunity there, and I think that's equally regrettable.</s>BATTISTA: Let me go to the audience quickly -- Richard.</s>RICHARD: My point in regards to what the students had, as a former teacher for 13 and a half years, I had one child go to the NFL. And all these other people that wanted to get out there and they said, you know, Mr. Solar (ph), why is it? Why can't I go out? I said, no, you've got to be here in algebra II. I would go to the coach and ask him, hey, look, this guy, oh no, Mr. Solar, you can do that. So if anything, teachers also need to be put up against that idea, hey, this is far more important, getting your education, and not just leaving it to the child, because the child is under pressure from the coach and even parents.</s>BATTISTA: Yes, good comment. We'll talk about who's responsibility it is to tone it down. And, Richard Lapchick, we thank you very much for joining us today. We'll be back in just a moment.</s>BATTISTA: An assistant baseball coach with the Hollywood, Florida Police Athletic League turned himself into police today and was charged with breaking an umpire's jaw. Orlando Lago was accused of punching the umpire after disagreeing with a call during a high school baseball game. Welcome back. With us here in Atlanta now is Rob Stearns, the national sales manager for Star 94 Radio. Rob has two children and he is the business manager for his son's baseball league. On the phone with us is also Barry Mano, who is founder and president of the National Association of Sports Officials. Rob, let me start with you. What has been your experience with this whole, you know, idea of youth sports and violence whether or not it's escalating.</s>ROB STEARNS, PARENT/FORMER COACH: Well, your topic is very timely. It's right on the money. I thoroughly enjoyed the first 30 minutes of the show just getting all the different takes. And I think unfortunately, it's the state that society is in now, with all the pressure. All the people who spoke earlier made very excellent points. You know, in my experience, I'm here as the sole member of the -- I'm the coach, so I'm trying to give a little bit different perspective. It all depends where you start out, what kind of objectives you have and where you set your bar, as far was what expectations you create for the parents and the kids. As we talked a little earlier, there's various different levels of competition. If you choose to go to the highest levels, you know, there's a certain price you have to pay there, not just in monetary costs, but as far as level of competition.</s>BATTISTA: Yes, I don't think people realize that it isn't just Pop Warner football anymore if you're a kid who wants to play football. It's you know, like we were saying, it's a year-round activity now. It's not just seasonal, and this includes camps, and it includes schools and it includes going to Europe to compete, things like that. I mean, it's really -- youth sports today seems to be better funded and better organized, for better or for worse.</s>STEARNS: Well, we oftentimes -- you know, I'm in my mid 40s and I remember as a kid I would go to the block or the cul-de-sac, grab some friends, get a whiffle ball and we would play supervised sports. You don't see that much anymore, unfortunately. There's umpires, and there's got to be referees and officials, which in some ways is good. It keeps the kids busy. As a parent of the 14-year-old, he's off the Internet a little bit, and he's but not in the malls. So you know, organized group sports is a good thing. There a lot of positives, but certainly we're pointing out today some of the negatives that exists.</s>BATTISTA: Barry, let me get you in here. Do you think that we're seeing an increase from your perspective in violence, or is it a change in the type of violence?</s>BARRY MANO, NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF SPORTS OFFICIALS: No, we're certainly seeing an increase here at the National Association of Sports Officials. In the old days, things happened of an untoward nature, but there really wasn't an organization that an official could go and report it. Generally, you wouldn't report it to the league, because the league didn't want that kind of problem, and it's reported that you ended up not getting more assignments, if you will. Now that here, we're getting more reports. On a quantitative basis, certainly there are physical assaults against sports official than at any time, and we've been in business for 25 years.</s>BATTISTA: What do you see when you see a parent who's about to lose it?</s>MANO: Well, you know, We only have so many options, frankly. I mean, we can police the game, we can handle and adjudicate the game because we have the rule book giving us the authority, but with respect to fans and parents, it's not so easy, especially at the lower levels, because you don't have formal security in place at those levels as you do in high, school college and professional. So our job is a lot tougher if they are asking us to somewhat serve as a policeman for the fans and the parents in the stand. If they want us to do that, then they need to give us more tools to be able to handle that. One of the tools is the league has to adopt a policy -- and some now do -- where the fans and the parents have to sign a contract. If they have bad behavior, they are going to be ejected from the league and not permitted to attend any games for a year. And they have to make it stick. Those kinds of things give us the tools to do what we have to do.</s>BATTISTA: You know what, would you have done that, Rob, as a former coach, if you'd had to do that?</s>STEARNS: Ban the parents?</s>BATTISTA: Yes, or ban the kid -- and the kid too. I mean, I hate to penalize the child but...</s>STEARNS: You know, each situation is different. If somebody is eliciting behavior that's inappropriate, you definitely have to lay the law down. There's no question. It starts with the coaches. It goes to the umpires, then the commissioners, the board members. There's like a whole, you know, hierarchy in youth sports. And if they all can get together on the same page and lay the law down, it surely would be helpful.</s>BATTISTA: To the audience here, quickly to the audience, and Heather?</s>HEATHER: I was just going to say that, as horrendous a story as this is, I'm afraid that it is not going to be the last story we hear like this unless we do something. Because being a high school and college athlete myself, I know many stories of fellow teammates who were physically abused and verbally abused -- you know, tremendous stories -- because their parents didn't feel that they performed well enough during that game that night.</s>BATTISTA: Let me ask Greg and Bob quickly -- we don't have that much time -- about whose responsibility they think it is to keep this under control and to keep this from escalating.</s>HEINZMANN: Go ahead, Bob.</s>KATZ: It's my feeling it's completely the parents' responsibility. It's the parents' responsibility to come to a broader understanding and pass it on to their children: that life is not a win-lose situation; that life is much more nuanced and complex; and that games are simply games; and there are games that can be fun, can be educational. And that should be enough for parents and child alike.</s>BATTISTA: Gregg.</s>HEINZMANN: I think we all have a responsibility, Bobbie. But, you know, we've talked about a number of different things here. First of all, the lack of free play nowadays is a function of how society has changed over the last 25 years. I agree we used to come home after school and throw the books down and go out and play in front of Johnny's house. But now we have more parents working. We have more single-parent homes. And as a result kids, the latchkey kid syndrome is a very real phenomenon. That puts a lot more pressure on our recreational programs in the different towns around the country to meet the demand for healthy, wholesome activities for kids. But I'm not sure they are deriving the same benefit, because when we played, we used to resolve these disputes. We used to choose the teams. We used to make the rules. And now that's all being directed by adults for better or for worse. Also, you know, we have two- to three-million volunteer coaches in this country. You've brought up at least half a dozen examples here on your screen. We need to keep it in perspective. I'm not sure this a rising tide of violence. I'm not even sure it is a wave. But yet, one incident is enough to make us all concerned. And we are all responsible.</s>BATTISTA: All right. Gregg Heinzmann and Bob Katz, we thank you very much, both of you, for joining us today. We've got to take another break. Former baseball pitcher Jim Palmer will join us next.</s>BATTISTA: Welcome back. We are talking about parents behaving badly during their kids' sporting events. And joining us now is baseball Hall of Famer, pitcher and Cy Young Award winner, Jim Palmer, as you know. He is currently a spokesman for the acid reflux disease awareness. And we were just comparing notes on that since we both suffer from that. Good cause, I'll say that.</s>JIM PALMER, HALL OF FAME PITCHER: Yes.</s>BATTISTA: Are you, Jim, as a professional athlete, are you shocked by any of this about, you know, what you are hearing about a possible escalation in violence in youth sports and that kind of thing?</s>PALMER: I think that it's kind a microcosm of our society. Where I stand, I certainly wasn't here the first couple of minutes. I mean, there was not a whole lot of violence when I played little league. But I have seen it. I mean, part of getting prepared for the baseball season was to play basketball at the local YMCA. And I saw people throw balls in people's face, and do things that you don't normally do under normal conditions -- at least not people that I saw in my walk of life. And people react to either the stresses or whatever of athleticism, or athletic conduct, or whatever, a lot differently. But I think we see it, at least I see it, where people overreact to a lot of situation -- whether it's road rage, or now, you know, now we probably even have e-mail rage.</s>BATTISTA: Right. Air rage, we have air rage. We know that too.</s>PALMER: Exactly.</s>BATTISTA: You said a few minutes ago obviously you didn't see a lot of violence. But what was it like for you, as an obviously gifted athlete -- which I am sure you were picked out, you know, when you were younger-- I mean, or did you just come up the regular way -- I mean, playing pee-wee baseball.</s>PALMER: Pretty much came -- I was adopted at birth in New York, so I never played organized baseball until my father passed away when I was 10 years old and we moved to California. And I actually started playing before little league. When I was 10 years old, I played in a league called the Golden State League. Instead of being from 9-12, which is what little league is -- or maybe now even 8-12 -- I played from 10-13. And I wasn't very good. I played third base, hit about .184, pitched one day, and kind of like it. But I moved to Beverly Hills, California, played little league when I was 11 and 12; pony league when I was 13; move to Arizona; played Babe Ruth American Legion; and then signed at 17, and was in the Major Leagues at 19. But I think back, I think that one of the most important things that I learned -- whether it was in the minor leagues playing for Cal Ripken Sr., who was my first manager -- or my parents. They were first of all very supportive, went to all my games. No. 2, Cal Sr. told me: Listen, we are going to teach you about baseball. We are going to teach you how important the fan is. But we're also going to teach you about teamwork and about having fun. And I worked for a little league down in Palm Beach Gardens in Florida. And I have worked for him for about three or four years. And they are pretty good. And I have a good friend of mine, Mike Adams -- is a golf pro at PGA National -- is one of the top 100 teachers -- I mean, does a terrific job with these kids. He teaches them discipline. He teaches them, you know, how to play the game; but the most important thing is that he teaches them to have a good time. So everybody is there because they want to be, not because of peer pressure, not because of -- I mean, maybe they feel like that is. But the bottom line is, is that I think the most important thing I tell them and the most important thing that I think I maybe missed at a Major League level, and even in the Minor League, is that I was -- and even in amateur baseball -- is maybe I wasn't having as much fun as I should have.</s>BATTISTA: Yes, and not enough emphasis on that. Too many -- too many coaches and parents trying to be Vince Lombardi with 8 year olds, which is, you know, a great coach, but maybe not for an 8-year-old.</s>PALMER: Well, I have -- I have a 33-year-old daughter. Jamie lives up in Boston now, and she started playing softball when she was 10 years old. And I went for the first couple of games and she was having a great time. Not very good at it. They were learning how to play, as most of the kids in that time. And I went back about a month-and-a-half later -- we'd been on the road, and because of the fact that I was playing baseball and the games were in the late afternoon when I was at the ballpark. I finally had a chance on an off-day to go to one of her games, and they were winning. They're beating everybody. But the coach had figured out if you don't swing at the ball, you could walk. And they were winning but nobody was having fun. And I went up to the coach afterwards and I said: "Something's wrong here. This is not about winning." I mean, that's a byproduct of learning how to play, how -- getting along with other kids. All of the things that what amateur sports was supposed to be about -- and I think a lot -- a lot of coaches get it and a lot of don't. I do Little League World Series, did it for ABC for about 13 out of the last 15 years. And the amazing thing is that these kids come up to Williamsport, play on the Wide World of Sports, play under the most intense situations all the way to get to Williamsport. And I've seen them crying. I saw one kid pitch a no-hitter...</s>BATTISTA: There's no crying in baseball.</s>PALMER: I know, yes. But I saw him pitch a no-hitter on Wednesday night and on Saturday give up 21 runs in the first three innings. He's on the mound crying. His dad was the coach. So there's a lot of things that go on that maybe shouldn't go on. But I think probably the most important thing that I ever learned is that you've got to enjoy what you're doing, whether you're -- you're -- it's your avocation when you're older or when you're young. And it seems like sometimes that's missing from the -- from the equation.</s>BATTISTA: I've got to take another break. I'll come back to Wendy's comment in just a second.</s>BATTISTA: All right. Let me take a phone call from John in Florida. John, you've been a ref, I guess, in amateur sports.</s>JOHN: Yes, I'm a high-school official and we also do Pop Warner football.</s>BATTISTA: OK. So your comment?</s>JOHN: Well, we're talking about -- talking about violence as far as fans go and the parents and all go, right?</s>BATTISTA: Right.</s>JOHN: And predominantly we don't have much of a problem on the field with kids. For the most part, it seems like the kids are out there -- they're intent on playing. What's important to them is not really winning or losing. It's game time, getting a chance to actually get out there and play.</s>JOHN: Right, but the fans, it seems like, the parents are the ones that really get hot under the collar out there. Like give you an example, last year we were at a Pop Warner football game and the home team was losing, and the fans got very irate about it. They started coming down out of the stands and going toward the field and everything. It was a regular high school-type football field with track around the outside of it. And they were pressing the field. Now the field supervisor should have moved them back at that point and quieted them down, but they didn't. And in football we don't usually have a whole lot of personal interaction with the fans, because we're in the middle of the fields and they're up in the bleachers. But everybody's got to leave the field at some time. We've got to go out of the stadium some time. And we really -- we really narrowly avoided getting mobbed getting out of there.</s>BATTISTA: Right, right.</s>JOHN: We had -- several people got rocks thrown at them. One guy got his rock hit with a rock. Somebody cut loose with a pistol shot at us.</s>BATTISTA: Oh my gosh.</s>JOHN: Yes, so we...</s>BATTISTA: John, let me move on here quickly because I'm running out of time, but I understand where you're coming from on that and that's pretty extreme. We got a fax a few minutes ago that says that the toughest meanest athletes are glorified and children learn from that. And I wanted to Jim Palmer to comment on that because that's part of the culture that we live in today, that cult of celebrity, I think, and it doesn't teach children well.</s>PALMER: No, I think, you know, whether you're talking about John Rocker or any situation, I think we all have to take responsibility for our actions, and I think that that's a lesson to be learned: you know, whether you're a professional athlete or you're an amateur athlete, whether you're a, you know, just a -- quote -- a "normal person" or not is that you have to be responsible. And I think a lot of times in sports you are treated differently. People come up to me -- and I know that I can make a difference in their life by being nice to them. But there was a guy, Mike Marshall, one of the great relief pitchers, and he said: "I'm not going to give you an autograph because you should be getting your autographs from your school teachers because they're going to teach you a lot more than I could ever do."</s>BATTISTA: Right, very good.</s>PALMER: And for some reason, people -- and you know, he was a kinesiologist and...</s>BATTISTA: But does this include being a role model? Because, you know, I can remember when Charles Barkley famously said, "I don't want to be a role model, I shouldn't have to be a role model." I mean, there's a lot of pressure on athletes...</s>PALMER: But he also -- you have to understand -- now, my interpretation of what Charles Barkley said was "I don't want people emulating me; they should emulate your parents." And I think what Charles was trying to say was that your parents on a daily basis have a much better chance of being a role model than any athlete. And my point is I try to conduct myself where people will say, you know, I want to be like Jim Palmer. But people don't really know me. If I'm living in a home, I'm a youngster growing up, who do I really want to emulate? I want to emulate my parents. And they want to give me, they want -- I mean, my parents did it. I mean, they gave me support. They talked to me about education. They talked about not being rude, being polite, being kind to other people, being caring: all of the things that are important as far as I'm concerned. And I probably wouldn't think that way if it hadn't been for my parents.</s>BATTISTA: Yes. I've got to take another break. We'll be back.</s>BATTISTA: I promised Wendy I think a couple of segments ago that I was going to come back and get your comment or question, and I didn't get to you -- go ahead.</s>WENDY: My daughter went to the World Series last year, and we had nothing but fun. Our girls were out there to play and have fun playing. That's what the coaches emphasized, was having fun, and I think when a team is having fun, they're winning. And if they are not, they're not doing well, and they're down on themselves, and I think that it's the parent's responsibility to keep other parents in control, the coach's responsibility to not yell at the girls and just have fun.</s>BATTISTA: All right. Wendy, thanks very much. If we have time, we can throw up those full screens we have with some advice for parents. No, we don't. OK, Jim Palmer, thank you very much for being with us. I appreciate you stopping by. Rob Stearns, thank you, and thank you all for joining us. We'll see you again tomorrow for more TALKBACK LIVE.