Debate Over Tookie Williams' Execution
NGUYEN: I want to check our top stories right now. First up, some breaking news out of Pakistan. We've been following it all morning long. U.S. and Pakistani officials say a top al Qaeda commander has been killed in an explosion in northern Pakistan. His name is Abu Hamza Rabia. Now there are unconfirmed reports that a house Rabia was in earlier this week was hit by a missile from an unmanned CIA aircraft. Those are unconfirmed reports, but Pakistani officials say it was an accidental blast, saying that he was working with explosives at the time. So we are working to clarify exactly what happened there. Tests are now in on another story here showing an Indonesian woman who died earlier this week. She died from bird flu. The World Health Organization says the 25-year-old is the eighth to die from bird flu in Indonesia. More than 130 people all across Asia have been sickened by the illness, 69 have died so far. An estimated 40,000 Louisiana hurricane evacuees are now temporarily housed in Atlanta and New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin is holding a town hall meeting with those evacuees. That is set to kick off in under 90 minutes at Atlanta's Morehouse College. We're going to bring you some of that town hall meeting live when it happens.</s>HARRIS: Say the name Stanley "Tookie" Williams and you'll get outrage from people who are for and against his request for clemency. Williams, co-founder of the notorious street gang the Crips is now on death row for the murders of four people. Should "Tookie" Williams be executed? We have guests on both sides of the issue joining us this morning. Rich Dieter is with the Death Penalty Information Center and Michael Paranzino is with throwawaythekey.org. Gentlemen, good talk to you this morning.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.</s>HARRIS: Richard, let me start with you. Are you fighting for "Tookie" Williams or for everyone who's on death row?</s>RICHARD DIETER, DEATH PENALTY INFO. CTR: Well we address the problems of the death penalty in the United States and the death penalty is used not for all murders, but for those people whom society feels it should give up on, people who are such a future danger to society that they should be eliminated from the human race. That judgment was wrong in the case of Stanley Williams. He has proved to be not a future danger and is in fact contributed to the safety of society.</s>HARRIS: All right, Michael. What do you think about that?</s>MICHAEL PARANZINO, WWW.THROWAWAYTHEKEY.ORG: Future danger is one element of the death penalty. Look, Stanley "Tookie" Williams is a four-time unrepentant killer. He refuses to inform on his fellow killers and thugs who could still be involved in criminal enterprises today. So "Tookie" Williams has sided with the killers and thugs who he's protecting because he doesn't want to be termed a snitch rather than the teens of color who are the majority of victims of gang violence.</s>HARRIS: Richard, do you believe he's done enough good work to deserve clemency from Governor Schwarzenegger?</s>DIETER: I think this is the kind of issue that Governor Schwarzenegger should consider. Let all the fact facts be played out. I don't pretend to know all the facts. I do know he was commended by President Bush for his activities. I do know he's been nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize. I do know that he's written quite a few children's books and a lot of objective observers feel that he has done something toward restitution. Eliminating him I think sends the wrong message. It sends the message that no matter what you do, we're going kill you. You know, 24 years later, I don't know that it makes any sense to just take his life at this point.</s>HARRIS: Hey, Michael, clemency is clearly available to the governor. If you don't use it in this kind of a case when the man seems to have redeemed himself and helped others, nine books, speaking to kids whenever he can. When do you use it?</s>PARANZINO: This would be the worst case to use it. He has never accepted responsibility for killing four people. The Yangs, an entire family destroyed. And Albert Owens, killed lying down on the floor, killed brutally. Never apologized, never corrected for that and refuses to inform on fellow criminals that could be stopped if he would just speak out. He cares more about protecting the criminals than he does the urban communities who are victims of gang violence. That's not repentance.</s>HARRIS: So who do you reserve clemency for, white collar criminals?</s>PARANZINO: I'm not a big fan of clemency for killers. If you're stealing cars and you've learn turned your life around, by all means go to the governor. If you've done other similar crimes, drug crimes, by all means, let's get in rehab and seek clemency.</s>HARRIS: Hey, Richard, you can't seem to claim that he's been denied due process. Hasn't he had his day in court time and time again?</s>DIETER: Yes. He's certainly been through the appeals process. I think this is a question of mercy, of the exceptional case of the governor stepping in. The courts no longer have many issues. You know, as far as his accepting responsibility, he does claim that he was innocent of these crimes and certainly we know the system is not infallible, but I think it's a little unreasonable to say someone should take responsibility for something he didn't do or he claims he didn't do. I realize the courts have found differently, but you know.</s>HARRIS: You think he got a fair trial?</s>PARANZINO: A jury -- I'm sorry, that was for me? A jury of 12 convicted him. The most liberal courts in America sit in California, both state and Federal. They have all upheld the convictions. This is not about -- no one with a straight face is saying he's innocent. Stop the presses, a killer says he's innocent. They all do. This is about the so-called mercy. Let's say the Yangs didn't have mercy, Albert Owens didn't have mercy. Let's save mercy for someone that does everything they can to try to rat out their fellow criminals.</s>HARRIS: Michael, very quickly, let me have you respond to this e-mail. It makes no sense to keep someone on death row for almost 30 years. He's a changed and redeemed man. Let him tell the story to our young men. Let him be the messenger.</s>PARANZINO: The best message we can send to other thugs and would-be killers is see what happened to "Tookie" Williams. He is finally going face justice after stalling the system for 25 years through frivolous appeals. He is finally going to face justice and the California, the people of California are fed up and may make the next killer face justice as well. It's a great signal to send and the governor ought to send it.</s>HARRIS: OK, Michael, thank you. Thank you Richard for a spirited debate. We'll have more on this in our 11:00 hour. Gentlemen, thank you.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.</s>NGUYEN: Well, right now, we want to know what our viewers think about it. You've heard both sides. All morning long we've been asking for your opinion on this issue and we've gotten an earful to tell you the truth about it. If you haven't weighed in just yet, now is your chance. Send them in, your e-mails, to weekends@cnn.com and we'll read some of them on the air right after the break.