Women fighting for rights in Baghdad
BROWN: Well if you look really carefully you can see the top of Joe Lieberman's head. He's in the spin room after the debate in New Hampshire. Senator Lieberman is and he's having his picture taken by half the photographers on the planet it appears and perhaps giving an interview or two and we're still hopeful he will, as promised, make his way to our location but he is clearly not there yet and we're move along until he gets there. No serious person I suspect would argue that Iraqis were better off with Saddam than without him. He was an evil man who did horrible things but he was not a cartoon character. In the Iraq that was Saddam, women enjoyed more rights than women do in most, if not all, of the Muslim world. In the new Iraq that may or may not be so, there are troubling signs in that regard and it is hard to imagine that Americans who supported the war supported the notion that women after liberation would become second class citizens. Here's CNN's Sheila MacVicar.</s>SHEILA MACVICAR, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): At Mr. Ali's beauty salon a bride gets ready for her wedding. The talk isnt about parties or nerves but about a change in Iraqi family law approved by the American appointed governing council, a decision women here fear will take away their rights in everything from marriage to divorce and many women are very angry. I don't know who they're talking to says this hairdresser. We're used to working to having rights. I don't know what they think they're doing. This is not what they expected, they say, from the end of Saddam Hussein. (on camera): For more than 50 years even under Saddam Hussein, Iraqi women have been equal to Iraqi men in the eyes of the law, protected by some of the most socially progressive legislation in the Middle East. (voice-over): The new law would wipe out that legislation and put such matters not in the hands of courts and judges but Muslim and Christian clerics. Muslim families would have to abide by the strict Islamic code of Shari.</s>ZAKKIA HAKKI, RETIRED JUDGE: What kind of decision is this?</s>MACVICAR: Zakkia Hakki is a retired judge. The new law, she says, could set back women's status by centuries.</s>HAKKI: Because this will bring all Iraqi families, Muslim and non-Muslim to the Middle Ages.</s>MACVICAR: Fadal (ph) and Housum (ph) are in divorce court after eight years of marriage. He wants to take a second wife, permissible in Islam. She has refused and demanded a divorce instead. Under Shari, Housum could lose her right to the modern day concept of alimony, something even her now ex-husband doesn't accept. We divorced legally so she would keep her rights he says and we both agree on that. In the days since the decision of the governing council was made public, women's groups in Iraq have demonstrated and help conference. Angry that a time when Iraq needs so much to be done the council voted to change law that had worked for years. These women are planning what to do next, how to battle the conservatives. Basma Al Khateb heads a U.N. organization for Iraqi women.</s>BASMA AL KHATEB, HEAD, U.N. ORGANIZATION FOR IRAQI WOMEN: But I can tell you women what are they sensing, they're sensing that this is something dangerous and they have to be really aware of that and they have to work, go out, claim their rights.</s>MACVICAR: Rule 137, as it is called, is not yet law. Coalition officials say Ambassador Paul Bremer, as Iraqi administrator, will not approve it. The governing council because of the anger of the women is discussing it again. But by July under the current plan Iraqis will be passing their own laws and even clerics who are now cooperating with the coalition say they believe this will be the will of the people. The women and some men say this is the road to theocracy and that it must be stopped. Sheila MacVicar, CNN, Baghdad.</s>BROWN: Last month the Iraqi Governing Council named Rend Al- Rahim as its representative to the United States. Born in Baghdad, she was forced to leave Iraq in 1978. She became a U.S. citizen in 1987. We talked with her about this earlier today.</s>BROWN: Madam Ambassador, lets start with I think sort of literally where we are now. This change has been proposed but it has not yet become law?</s>AMB. REND AL-RAHIM, IRAQI REPRESENTATIVE TO THE U.S.: No, its not law yet. I think certainly it has been proposed in the Iraqi Governing Council. I think there has been debate on it but it is -- it's not law yet and it hasn't been passed.</s>BROWN: Do you expect it will be?</s>AL-RAHIM: It's very difficult to anticipate. You know I should say and this is something that's important to realize that a lot of the decisions in the governing council have been made not by an up and down vote where it's winner takes all but by consensus and compromise and I see no reason why this issue should not also be dealt with in that spirit. So, it's very difficult to know where the compromises or the arrangements are going to be made. I don't want to anticipate. I do know that this is a subject not only -- of debate not only in the governing council but also a national debate.</s>BROWN: Tell me how it is or where it is there is room for compromise in what is, I think, at least to an American's ear, a fundamental human rights question? Are women, first, equal citizens or are they second-class citizens?</s>AL-RAHIM: By the Sharia law does not make women second-class citizens. Let's be clear what is being proposed. What's being proposed in Iraq is to put family law under Sharia law, in other words, issues that affect marriage, divorce, inheritance, and so on. And a clear distinction has to be made and a clear understanding that we are talking about family law. We're not talking about all the civil code and civil law. And, by the way, it's not unusual for Muslim countries to have two sets of law, one for civic fairs, corporations, interpersonal dealings, and the other family law, which comes under Sharia law or Muslim canon law.</s>BROWN: I think the questions that many Americans will have, given the cost of the war in lives and in dollars, is, is this what we fought for, so that women are, in effect, set back? Do you not see this as a setback for women?</s>AL-RAHIM: I do not see it as a setback for women professionally or politically. I'll give you an example. In Lebanon, for example, and in Egypt, family law is under Sharia law. This does not stop women from being lawyers, doctors, politicians, ambassadors, whatever they want, and parliamentarians. It does not. It affects marriage, divorce, inheritance. So there is nothing that is going to stop women from participating fully in public, professional and political life. Now, does it disadvantage them in terms of marriage, settlements, in terms of inheritance? That is really what we ought to be talking about. And I think the debate in Iraq is not about whether it's going to stop them from participating in public life, but whether it's detrimental to their interests in the context of family regulations and family conduct.</s>BROWN: We'll watch and see how it plays out. It's one of many difficult choices that your country has to make in the months ahead. We appreciate your time today. Thank you.</s>AL-RAHIM: Thank you very much, yes.</s>BROWN: Thank you, ma'am.</s>AL-RAHIM: Thank you.</s>BROWN: A complicated question. Senator Joe Lieberman has made his way around the spin room and to our camera. And we will talk with the senator after this break. This is NEWSNIGHT around the world.