Outcry Over Israeli Outposts Bill
AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program. Now thousands of Israeli settlers living in illegal outpost in the West Bank could be allowed to stay if Israel's parliament gives them the go ahead next week. Many say that would bury any hope for the two states solution. Supporters of the bill have been emboldened by the recent election of Donald Trump and they believe he could be their chance to carving out a new map for peace. One settlement, though, that likely won't survive is Amona. Our Ian Lee reports it could be the sacrificial lamb.</s>IAN LEE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Within days, life could change dramatically for the settlers of Amona. The Israeli high court has ordered this illegal West Bank outpost demolished. Manya Hilal spent almost 15 years here raising her six children.</s>MANYA HILAL, AMONA SETTLER: These are people. There are 200 children living here. You know how devastated children area when being torn from their home, having their life destroyed.</s>LEE: A few hundred people called this hilltop home, raising families, working the land. Hilal points to the biblical book of Joshua as her land deed.</s>HILAL: It's time to declare these lands belong to us. It's time to say enough. No Jewish settlements should be evacuated. No child has to lose his life and his home and his friends for nothing, for nothing.</s>LEE: The government tried to remove the Amona's settlers 10 years ago. The violent clashes left a nation traumatize. (on-camera): This is all that is left from that day. Some twisted rebar and concrete. As for the settlers who are living here, they didn't have to move far just up the hill. (voice-over): Palestinian Ibrahim Yacoub knows how the settlers feel. (on-camera): Which part is your land?</s>IBRAHIM YACOUB, PALESTINIAN LANDOWNER: My land is -- where is the trees? It is behind the trees immediately.</s>LEE (voice-over): Yacoub tells me his family worked this land for generations, nurturing the harvest, camping under the stars. Then in 1996 he says, the settlers illegally seized it.</s>YACOUB: I want you to see and imagine how you feel when somebody come to your house and he takes from you your car and your house and you cannot do for him nothing.</s>LEE: The high court ruled with Yacoub and declared Amona must go.</s>LEE: Israel's right wing Jewish home party saw an opportunity setting in motion legislation to save Amona and legalize more than 50 other West Bank outpost at the same time. Palestinians and the outgoing administration in Washington are deeply concern seeing even the idea of a viable Palestinian state now on a point of collapse.</s>JOHN KERRY, SECRETARY OF STATE: There's a basic choice that has to be made by Israelis. Is there going to be continued implementation of settlement policy or is there going to be separation and the creation of two states.</s>LEE: In Amona, Manya Hilal and her community have a decision to make. As some built shelters for supporters they hope will defend them, the people here are under growing pressure to leave peacefully. December 25th is the deadline to clear the outpost. A move that could mark the end of one of legal settlement, but have far reaching ramifications across the rest of the West Bank. Ian Lee, CNN, Amona in the West Bank.</s>AMANPOUR: And I've been speaking to two opposing Israeli party leaders. Tzipi Livni who opposes this move. She was the main Israeli negotiator for a two-state solution, but first Naftali Bennett, leader of the Jewish Home Party who is pushing for the outpost to be legalized.</s>AMANPOUR: Naftali Bennett, welcome to the program.</s>NAFTALI BENNETT, ISRAELI EDUCATION MINISTER: Great to be here.</s>AMANPOUR: Let me ask you, because clearly, you want the court case to rule in your favor. But Amona, like many of the outposts, is illegal, not just under international law, but also Israeli law, since it sits on private Palestinian land. What are you expecting to happen? Are you expecting the settlement to remain?</s>BENNETT: We'll abide by the law. Whatever the Supreme Court will decide at the end, we will certainly abide. But I'll tell you that international law -- or I -- I would say more accurately, the nations of the world, many of them don't recognize Jerusalem as our capital. In fact, I think most of them don't. Yet Jerusalem is our capital. So, you know, we can't act only by what the world will say.</s>AMANPOUR: But you've also said that you believe this whole situation is -- and I'll quote -- "the first step to extending Israel's sovereignty over Judea and Samaria," which is what you term the West Bank. Are you expecting all these outposts to be approved in terms of being annexed?</s>BENNETT: What you call outposts are, in fact, communities -- pretty big communities, in some cases. Absolutely. My vision of the future is separation where we would apply Israeli law on the Israeli controlled areas in Judea and Samaria, where there is roughly half a million Israelis and only about 70,000 Arabs who would be granted Israeli citizenship, full Israeli citizenship. And the rest of the area, what's called Area A and B, would become an autonomy -- a self-governed area because the Palestinians already have a full blown state in Gaza. So that would be the end game. Separation -- they have an autonomy, a state, and we apply law on the Israeli areas.</s>AMANPOUR: Well, I -- I know you say that. However, it pits you against your current prime minister, at least that's what I understand from his latest interview with "60 Minutes." And I'd like to play that for you.</s>BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: Two states for two peoples. That's where I'm focused. Yes, I'd like to help -- to have President Trump when he gets into the White House -- help him work on that. I'd like to see if the Arab states can help me achieve that. It's a new reality, new possibilities.</s>AMANPOUR: So he's claiming that his government still abides by the internationally accepted two state solution in which the West Bank, you know, most of it, with the Palestinians, would be part of that.</s>BENNETT: I respect Prime Minister Netanyahu, but I profoundly disagree with that vision and what I am trying to do in Israel is garner more and more support for my vision, which is an autonomy and a strengthened area in Judea and Samaria. And I'll tell you more and more Israelis and more people around the world are understanding that, you know, if you try something once and twice, and a third time, and each time, it fails, you've got to try something new.</s>AMANPOUR: The only thing is.</s>BENNETT: I come from the business world. If a manager of mine would come and say that three times I failed, I'd fire him.</s>AMANPOUR: Here's the thing, though. You may be on the verge of committing national suicide. And I say that because even the Palestinians are now coming to talk about potentially a one state solution. But you know what that means for you, don't you? It means demographically, because of the birth rate, it would eventually be a Palestinian state -- or it would not be a democratic Jewish-Israeli state. So I guess what I'm saying, if you get what you want, isn't that the end of the dream as you see it?</s>BENNETT: Quite the contrary. My approach is of separation, the -- sort of the Puerto Rican model, so that the Palestinians would live in their autonomy. They would elect and vote for their government. They would govern themselves. Everything barring one main thing, which is an army. The second thing is they won't be able to flood Israel with six million great-grandchildren of '48 refugees, 1948 refugees.</s>AMANPOUR: Naftali Bennett, education minister in the current government, thank you very much, indeed for joining us.</s>AMANPOUR: And now we're going to move on. As much as we've tried to get a debate on these issues, we could not convince either side to do that. So we are going now to Tzipi Livni, who is former justice minister, and she is also one of the leaders of the opposition.</s>AMANPOUR: Tzipi Livni, you have been hearing and listening to this part of the conversation. What is wrong with Naftali Bennett's suggestion to have some kind of separation in the heart of the territory there?</s>TZIPI LIVNI, FORMER ISRAELI JUSTICE MINISTER: Bennett and I represent completely different visions for the state of Israel. While he's speaking about the land of Israel, and I do believe also in the right of the Jewish people on the entire land, my vision for the state of Israel is keeping the values of Israel as a Jewish democratic state and therefore, separation from the Palestinians means that it should be based on two states for two peoples, when each state gives an answer to the national aspirations of different peoples. And the only way to do so is by hopefully reaching an agreement or taking some steps forward. By the way, I heard that Bennett is saying that more and more Israelis support his vision about greater Israel, which is wrong.</s>AMANPOUR: OK. But there's a new poll from the Israel Democracy Institute, which, last week, polled and said 44 percent support annexing the West Bank while 38 percent oppose it. That's of Israelis. Doesn't that concern you?</s>LIVNI: Yes, it is. What concerns me is the future of Israel as a Jewish democratic state. Basically, it's about us, it's not only about us and the Palestinians or us and the international community. It's about the nature of the state of Israel. It's about the values of the state of Israel. It's about Israel as a democracy and keeping the Jewish values, as well. It is true that less and less Israelis, and unfortunately Palestinians also, believe in the idea that we can reach an agreement and there is more and more despair, less and less hope. And part of our responsibility as leaders is to recreate this hope.</s>AMANPOUR: Then, in that case, Miss Livni, obviously this current government has not rekindled that hope and does not in -- hasn't seemed to take any proactive measures.</s>LIVNI: No.</s>AMANPOUR: And nor have previous governments --</s>LIVNI: No, it's not.</s>AMANPOUR: And nor has the opposition been able to rekindle this hope. In other words, the narrative of the international community, the -- the vision of a two state solution is being allowed to die. What are you going to do about it?</s>LIVNI: As I said before, it's about us. It's about a decision that Israelis need to make. It's not a favor to the Palestinians. It's not even a favor to any president of the United States or the international community. But first and foremost, I believe that this is something that we need to decide. We need to do decide here in Israel where are we going, what is the vision for the state of Israel, how do we keep these values? It's not a -- it's basically should be and it is a -- an internal debate here in Israel. This government represents a different vision. Prime Minister Netanyahu still speaks about two states for two peoples, but I believe that this is also his test, whether he's willing to move forward on the basis of two states for two peoples. And I hope that having a new President-elect, this is a moment in which the vision and the policy should be defined between Israel and the U.S. --</s>AMANPOUR: What do you expect, because, there may be -- they pride themselves as businessmen, as does Naftali Bennett, who are able to make deals. And you've seen populist sentiment not only in the United States, but in Europe. And you've seen in your own country the settlers movement move from the fringe to mainstream.</s>LIVNI: I believe that annexing the entire territory, the West Bank, Judea and Samaria, this is a lose -- a lose situation. This would bring a clash between the values of the state of Israel as a Jewish democratic state and therefore I believe that this is the worst case scenario.</s>AMANPOUR: Tzipi Livni, thank you very much for joining us.</s>LIVNI: Thank you.</s>AMANPOUR: And when we come back, imagine a world of dangerous ignorance. It is one that some U.S. government scientists are going to desperate measures to thwart. We find out what they are up to and what they are up against -- next.