House Majority Leader Tom DeLay speaks to the NRA.
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville. On the right, Joe Watkins In the CROSSFIRE, the House majority leader found a friendly crowd, getting a thunderous welcome from the National Rifle Association. But is this show of support enough to clear the political and ethical cloud that hangs over Tom DeLay? The Democrats' new chairman wants to go after Republicans. But is Howard Dean going too far by playing politics with the Terri Schiavo case -- very partisan politics? Today, on CROSSFIRE. Live from the George Washington University, James Carville and Joe Watkins.</s>JAMES CARVILLE, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE. Tom DeLay didn't let the pressure of his alleged ethical lapses get him this weekend. The folks at the National Rifle Association convention welcomed the House majority leader like a long-lost brother. That's even though another Republican congressman says maybe DeLay ought to step down until he clears up his problems.</s>JOE WATKINS, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: The Democrats have their own problems, with their chairman, Howard Dean, threatening to bring up the tragic case of Terri Schiavo as a way to fight the GOP in next year's elections. More on that right now in the best little political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE political alert. If you're Howard Dean, and you derailed your own presidential campaign by screaming like a teenager at a boy-band concert, what do you do for an encore? Dean headed to California for the state Democratic convention and proceeding to try and defend key Democratic constituencies. Now, he did take swings at Republicans, like Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger and Tom DeLay, but also says that Democrats should move to the mainstream on the issue of abortion, upsetting some pro-choice Democrats. He also took a shot at John Kerry 's losing campaign for president, suggesting fewer mistakes should be made in the future. It's nice to know Dean is up to his old tricks again. Pushing people apart when he claims he wants to bring them together. How he imagines to make inroads in those red states that he's talking about is far beyond me.</s>CARVILLE: So he said that Kerry made mistakes in his campaign? Is something wrong with that? Or that Democrats continue to talk about issues. What is wrong? He's a Democrat, so he attacks the Republican governor of California. I mean...</s>WATKINS: But he's talking about, like, moving -- changing on abortion. The only way he can change on abortion is to become pro- life.</s>CARVILLE: He didn't say -- I guarantee you, he didn't say the party should be --</s>WATKINS: That's the way to do that.</s>CARVILLE: He didn't say that at all.</s>WATKINS: That's the only way to get those red states.</s>CARVILLE: No, no. So, wait, the Democratic Party chairman goes to California and attacks a Republican governor, and you think that's news?</s>WATKINS: Well, the only thing he didn't do was scream. He should have given the effort. Yee-hah!</s>CARVILLE: I don't think there's anything wrong with what the guy said. It seems to me it makes complete sense. You remember in the old Soviet Union, how they would just air brush people out of pictures they didn't like. Well, we've got some new air brushers, and they're called the Bush administration. According to Knight-Ridder, and I quote, "The State Department decided to stop publishing an annual report on international terrorism after the government's top terrorism center concluded there were more terrorist acts in 2004 than in any year since 1985, the first year the publication covered." The occurrence of more terrorist incidents around the world is an inconvenient fact for the Bush administration's claim. In case you may have forgotten, they also tried to trumpet the false findings of an annual report last year and were forced to retract it to reflect that incidents of terrorism had actually risen. You know, it's one thing to complain about the weather. It's another to shoot the weatherman. But don't fret, folks, because these guys are going to the voter, and they are going to air brush them out in 2006 and 2008.</s>WATKINS: Well, the truth of the matter is that the State Department is still going to issue a global terrorism report. But a the same time, they realize that the new authoritative agency for this information is the National Counterterrorism Center. So they're going to let those folks provide all the statistics on terrorism events around the world.</s>CARVILLE: So they've been doing it in 1985, and they come up this year and said this is the biggest year they had, and they say, "We're not going to issue the report." You can't defend that.</s>WATKINS: No, we've had some changes. We had an intelligence bill passed in the fall.</s>CARVILLE: Well, what's that got to do with the State Department issuing a report? What's that got to do with that?</s>WATKINS: We're glad at least that the State Department is following protocol here.</s>CARVILLE: So since 1985 -- what's this, 2005? -- is that 20 years? I'm dumb. For 20 years, they've been doing this. They get the wrong information, you know, oop, shoot them.</s>WATKINS: Here's another question for Democrats: What do you do after you tell a Republican you're going to work with him? Apparently, if you're former Democratic Senator Bob Kerrey, you decide to work against him instead. Kerrey, the president of the New School University, is thinking about running for mayor of New York. Kerrey says it's unlikely he'll enter the race, though he says he'll announced his final decision later this week. Nothing wrong with that. He's a very bright man, a war hero with solid credentials. The thing is, he started thinking about making a run after telling current Mayor Mike Bloomberg that he would head up Democrats for Bloomberg for the mayor's reelection campaign. "Time" magazine just named Bloomberg one of the top big-city mayors in America. Kerrey, on the other hand, has no money, no organization, no name recognition, and now has to explain why a man he was once willing to work with and work for, he's going to run against.</s>CARVILLE: Well, I think he does explain it, that the</s>WATKINS: Well, you know, Kerrey's a war hero. There's not doubt about it. He's a war hero. He's a good guy. The thing is though, I thought he was a man of his word. And he said he was going to run Democrats for Bloomberg. Why doesn't he just stick with that?</s>CARVILLE: Again, I'm sure that somebody will ask him that. And I'm sure he's got a pretty good answer, because he's a bright guy. Perhaps you've heard of an outfit in Washington called the Heritage Foundation. They were, in the opinion of most people, a self-important, pontifical, gas-bag, bloviating pack of right-wingers masquerading as some kind of think tank. However, my opinion of them has changed after a story in Sunday's "Washington Post" by Thomas Edsall. Of course, they're all of the aforementioned things, but they are something else: They're a bunch of greedy little oinking piglets sucking up money for personal profit to change their principles. Edsall's story points out that their position on the government of Malaysia changed drastically when the Malaysian government started paying senior Heritage officials. So my friends, the next time you see the Heritage Foundation, just think of them as any commodity, prepared to be bought and sold on the right topic for the right price.</s>WATKINS: Well, you know, to me, James, this is more of that smear stuff. You know, the Heritage Foundation is a great think tank. They're a great organization.</s>CARVILLE: Smear stuff? How's this -- I mean, it was in the paper. They paid this guy off to change his positions on the tyrannical government in Malaysia.</s>WATKINS: The good thing is that the Heritage Foundation always calls it as they see it. It doesn't matter what --</s>CARVILLE: If you pay them, they'll call it different.</s>WATKINS: No, no, no, no. Absolutely not. Absolutely not.</s>CARVILLE: You give me 10 grand, I'll call it like I see it. I'll see the 10 grand in my hand, and I call it.</s>WATKINS: No, they have plenty of money on their own. They don't need anybody's money to change their positions.</s>CARVILLE: No, no. It's wrong. You know, they were paying the guys off. Not the Heritage Foundation. They were paying them, according to this Tom Edsall story. So give me 10 grand, and let me know. Give me 10 grand, and I'll give you a position.</s>WATKINS: The good things is that you can't believe everything that you read.</s>CARVILLE: All right. Tom DeLay is still under fire, and Howard Dean is going on the attack. We'll debate the state of partisan politics just ahead. How would you like a free mansion? You may think twice after you hear what you'll have to do to get it.</s>WATKINS: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. House Majority Leader Tom DeLay called giving the keynote speech at the NRA convention over the weekend the proudest moment of his life. He also said when you're in a fight, you want all your friends around you, preferably armed. He's right. Is the heat that bad for the leader? "In the Crossfire" today, Democratic Strategist Steve McMahon and Barbara Comstock, former spokeswoman for the Justice Department. Welcome to the</s>CROSSFIRE. CARVILLE: Barbara, I need a little shoring up here because I'm getting a little worried about DeLay. I am a self-appointed president of the Democrats for propagation of arrogance and stupidity, and we like having Tom DeLay in there. Let me show you what Newt Gingrich, and this was a very devastating quote. I'm worried about it because -- it could -- it could -- DeLay's problem isn't with the Democrat. DeLay's problem is with the country. Newt Gingrich former speaker of the House, saw CBS News April 12. Could you please tell people like me who are worried that the Republicans would get rid of this arrogant nut, and put somebody else in. We don't have to worry that Tom DeLay is in there for the long haul. And he's go to have the support -- united support of this Republican Party in this Congress. Because frankly, I'm getting a little worried.</s>BARBARA COMSTOCK, FMR. JUSTICE DEPT. SPOKESWOMAN: Well, you don't have to be worried because the Republicans are strongly supporting Tom DeLay. They were out very strongly this weekend. Majority Whip Roy Blunt was very strong for him, as was the whole conferences. Now, I know how you felt when George Stephanopoulos, you're good friend, went out and started talking about impeachment -- about president Clinton. And there was never any issues of disagreement of any disagreement within the party at that time.</s>CARVILLE: I'm not -- I'm not -- I want to know -- I'm -- nothing to do with President Clinton. I want -- you're assuring me that the Republican Party is in lock step solidly behind Tom DeLay and I don't have to worry that they are going to get rid of him? Because I like having him around.</s>COMSTOCK: I think things like your goofy six degrees of Kevin Bacon Web site, that you guys put up this weekend, and all these attacks, when in fact the Democrats have no agenda. I think that's what is going to keep the Republicans in control, because we keep winning. Just last week 42 Democrats voted for the death tax repeal. Seventy three voted for bankruptcy reform.</s>CARVILLE: Is that the Paris Hilton tax cut?</s>COMSTOCK: Forty-two Democrats...</s>CARVILLE: Where Paris Hilton would get...</s>COMSTOCK: Forty-two Democrats...</s>CARVILLE: But how many voted against?</s>COMSTOCK: Forty-two Democrats voted...</s>CARVILLE: Out of a 197?</s>COMSTOCK: Well, 42 of your guys abandoned your party, and that's why you guys are upset. Because you don't have an agenda, you're just doing attacks.</s>CARVILLE: Right. So you don't have to worry. You're lock step behind DeLay. I don't have to -- thank you. Go ahead. Thank God.</s>COMSTOCK: We're lock step behind the president's agenda in getting work done.</s>CARVILLE: Go Tom go.</s>WATKINS: Steve, let me piggyback on that, because I think Barbara raise a good point. I mean, at the end of the day this is what it seems like to me, and to lots of Americans. What it seems like is the fact that -- I mean, Tom DeLay, there are dozens of other members of the House and the Senate, who have family members who work for them because they trust them and they do a good job for them. All this talk about Tom DeLay, all this witch hunt, is little more to me than a partisan witch hunt because the Democrats don't have an agenda. There's no agenda. There's no policy the Democrats want to push. The only thing they can think to try to stop Republicans is to try to dirty up Tom DeLay, and make him the center of the agenda. I mean, what do the Democrats have on the policy agenda other than Tom DeLay.</s>STEVE MCMAHON, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, lets be clear about something, it's not the Democrats dirtying up Tom DeLay. It's Tom DeLay. The Democrats didn't go on a golf trip paid for by a lobbyist that cost $70,000. The Democrats didn't...</s>WATKINS: What did Nancy Pelosi's aide take a trip? Didn't -- didn't Nancy Pelosi aid take a trip. I mean, people take trips all the time.</s>MCMAHON: It happens repeatedly over time. And all the Democrats are say saying let's find out what the facts are. Let's let the Ethics Committee actually meet. The Republicans have blocked the Ethic Committee from meeting so they can look into these charges. Tom DeLay -- you know, Newt Gingrich is right. His problems isn't with the Democrats, his problem's with the country. Whoever said over the weekend that he needs to come out and explain himself was absolutely right. He needs to come out and explain himself.</s>WATKINS: Seems to me -- it seems that his problem is he's one of the most effective Republican leaders that this country has seen. That's his problem. And Democrats want to stop him any way they can.</s>MCMAHON: Well, listen. He's providing all the ammunition. I mean, there's a grand jury down in Texas that's looking into Tom DeLay related activities. There's an -- there's an Ethics Committee in Washington, D.C. that's trying to look into it, but the Republicans won't let them meet. Tom DeLay should come forward. He should share the facts. And if he didn't do anything wrong, then he'll be exonerated and everything will be fine. But nobody will let them look into it.</s>CARVILLE: Congressman Rahm Emanuel, the outstanding brilliant Democrat from Chicago has -- proposing an ethics reform bill that would do a lot this. Of course, that's part of the Democratic agenda. Can we expect Republicans and people like, DeLay, to say you know what, we need ethics reform in the House. We need to have stringent rules here. We need deal with these things. And we're going to work with the Democrats to really clean this House of Representatives up. Can we expect that from the Republicans?</s>COMSTOCK: Listen, Congressman Emanuel who put up that great Web site of yours, is the guy who once sent a the dead fish to his opponent. And a these dead fish politics you guys are pushing, you just want to have this attack.</s>CARVILLE: He's sending a good -- an outstanding -- an outstanding piece of legislation and I just -- are you going to be for it? You say we have no ideas. We got -- I'm asking you, we put one up there.</s>COMSTOCK: James -- and I'm trying to answer. What you guys want to have, is you want to have an Ethics Committee that supports your partisan agenda. You want to be able to have a Democrat only investigation, and have the taxpayers have to pay to support your political agenda. Because you have no issue to</s>CARVILLE: Why is Tom DeLay the most reprimanded member in the history of the House of Representatives.</s>COMSTOCK: He is not...-</s>COMSTOCK: NO he has not been reprimanded. Barney Franks on the floor of the House, your ethics spokesman who was out yesterday, he was reprimanded. And he was reprimanded bipartisanly.</s>CARVILLE: What was -- what was Tom DeLay three times?</s>COMSTOCK: It was a letter.</s>CARVILLE: A letter saying what? Saying he was a great American?</s>COMSTOCK: He has never been found to violate any House rule or law.</s>CARVILLE: He was admonished, I'm sorry. It was three times. Do you know anybody in the history of the Congress that's been admonished three times.</s>COMSTOCK: That is not even an official sanction, it's not.</s>CARVILLE: This is what we mean</s>COMSTOCK: Because Barney Frank who has actually been reprimanded on the House floor.</s>MCMAHON: I think she's parsing what a letter of reprimand is.</s>COMSTOCK: There was no letter of reprimand.</s>MCMAHON: Was there a letter?</s>COMSTOCK: Reprimand is a formal action on the House floor.</s>MCMAHON: Was there a letter? Was there a letter?</s>COMSTOCK: There was a letter saying he had not violated -- the letter actually says he did not violate any House rules.</s>CARVILLE: So you're not worried? People like me that want this arrogant fool to stay there, we don't have to worry about it.</s>COMSTOCK: That arrogant fool in the Democratic Party that want continue to just attack can feel sure the Republican Party will continue to work on issues.</s>CARVILLE: Thank you. Thank you.</s>COMSTOCK: Not play -- Kevin Bacon.</s>CARVILLE: Like Schiavo and Paris Hilton tax. Maybe you all can work on gas prices.</s>WATKINS: Steve -- Steve...</s>COMSTOCK: That's what we're doing this week and Democrats are trying to stop us again.</s>WATKINS: Steve, I think that everybody would agree that Representative Peter King is a levelheaded guy. He's not just a knee jerk guy. He's not a party line go. He spoke out against the impeachment proceedings against President Clinton. And what he's saying here is very interesting, too, with regard to Tom DeLay. What he's saying is that this guy ought to be -- ought to be judged on his beliefs, on his views, on what he's done. But he say this is little more than a witch hunt. This is all about ganging up on the guy and trying to create an issues, trying to create the appearance of impropriety to bring him down.</s>MCMAHON: Newt Gingrich is right. Tom DeLay went on the trips. The trips were apparently paid for by lobbyists. The Ethics Committee has the ability to look into it if the Republicans will let them meet. I think it's interesting, Joe, that neither the president himself nor Speaker Hastert nor for that matter most of the Republican leadership on the Hill with the exception of Congressman Blunt have spoken out on Tom DeLay.</s>CARVILLE: They need get out and get behind him.</s>MCMAHON: They need to get out and behind him.</s>MCMAHON: In fact in "Time" -- in "Time" magazine this week a White House official was quoted anonymously, of course, as saying that Congressman DeLay is handling this like an idiot. Now, you know, that's the White House talking. Now, of course, they won't put it on the record for attribution, but I think you can tell what the White House is thinking. This guy is not good for the Republicans. He's great for the Democrats. If he stays there and brands theirs party, as the party of Schiavo, as the party that wants to insight violence against judges that they don't agree with. And the party that wants repeal -- privatize Social Security.</s>WATKINS: Hold it right there. Hold that thought right there. We've got to go to a break. Howard Dean is acting like Howard Dean again. Is that bad news for the Democrats? We'll debate that next. And how close are the cardinals to naming a new pope? Wolf Blitzer has the latest right after the break.</s>WOLF BLITZER, HOST, "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS": I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. Coming up at the top of the hour, black smoke over the Sistine Chapel, a sign that the cardinals meeting inside remain undecided on a new pope. Also -- they say they thought they were going to die: an enormous wave slams a cruise ship off the East Coast, tourists take home video of their traumatic trip. And, one of America's most honored athletes makes an announcement about his future: why Lance Armstrong says his time has come. All those stories, much more, only minutes away on "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS." Now back to</s>CROSSFIRE. CARVILLE: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Howard Dean spent some time with Democrats in California promising a 50-state effort the next presidential election. Before that happens, he promised to make what he calls "Republican grandstand" on Terri Schiavo case an issue in the next year's mid-term election. The Democrat's national chairman have an attack agenda? Still in the crossfire, Barbara Comstock, former spokesperson for the Justice Department and Democratic strategist Steve McMahon.</s>WATKINS: Steve, that's exactly where I want to start. I mean, Howard Dean goes to California...</s>MCMAHON: ....about DeLay?</s>WATKINS: No, no, no, I love talking about Tom DeLay, he's a good man. With regard to Howard Dean, he is a dream. I mean, here it is, he goes to California. He talks to Democrats in California. He's talking about bringing them together, talking about getting the red states in the corner on the sides of the Democrats now. He talks about making Terri Schiavo and the fight to keep her alive the centerpiece. Now, how does doe that? How do you go and you offend a portion of your party because, remember, Jesse Jackson went -- was in support of saving Terri Schiavo's life. Senator Tom Harkin was in support of saving Terri Schiavo's life. Congressman Chakha Fatah, Congressman Elijah Cummings. I mean, the list goes on. There are all these Democrats that were in support of saving Terri Schiavo's life. So, how does Dean get off offending his own party members?</s>MCMAHON: I'm not sure I understand what you were talking about. If you look at the polls, 70 percent of Americans including, I think, 70 percent of conservative Republicans, thought the Republicans overstepped their authority, overstepped their bounds on the Terri Schiavo case...</s>WATKINS: How about Democrats?</s>MCMAHON: What Howard -- probably 80 percent of Democrats. What Howard said over the weekend was, that the Republicans are going to be held accountable for their record. This is part of their record. They are the ones who called everybody back to Washington and had a big weekend where they debated Terri Schiavo's case. They passed a law that affects one family member, and it went to the courts, and guess what: every single court along the way decided exactly the same way, the Florida courts decided it. Then the Republicans weren't happy with that. They started talking about inciting violence against judges and calling for judges' impeachment. Now they want to repeal the filibuster. Talk about over stepping -- talk about...</s>WATKINS: ...no one on the House or Senate on either side of the aisle...</s>MCMAHON: Some people who read it that way. Talk about overstepping the authority. Look, Barbara said we don't have an agenda, and the fact is we do have an agenda, but the old -- there's a rule of politics that we learned from Lee Atwater...</s>WATKINS: We're waiting, we're waiting.</s>MCMAHON: Listen to this. Lee Atwater taught us something. When your opponent is self-destructing, get out of the way. That's what is going on with the Republicans.</s>CARVILLE: Bob, I want to go back because I'm a little worried about Newt getting off the reservation here. I want to go to a man who is not off the reservation, and, who I think said something and I want to get your reaction to this. And this is Senator Trent Lott who brilliantly observed -- he said, "I read very carefully what he," speaking President Bush, "had to say next week. I wish he had been more -- frankly -- more supportive. Frankly, he needs Tom DeLay." Now, do you think that the president needs to really get in there and get behind like NRA did and get behind? Don't you think it would be a good idea if he got behind Tom DeLay, and said, this man, you know what, I agree with Senator Lott and Barbara Comstock and all those good Republicans that this is a distinguished American. He needs to stay in there. Don't you think the president needs to do that?</s>COMSTOCK: Actually on CNN you just had an interview with Karl Rove talking about, the president is supportive. The point is, the Republicans are united to push...</s>CARVILLE: I want to hear President Bush say, I stand...</s>COMSTOCK: The Republicans are united and have a legislative agenda, and we keep peeling off dozens of Democrats...</s>CARVILLE: What is that agenda? Terri Schiavo, Paris Hilton tax? Anwar drilling (ph)?</s>COMSTOCK: No.</s>MCMAHON: Privatizing Social Security?</s>COMSTOCK: No...</s>MCMAHON: Impeaching judges you don't agree with. Don't forget that.</s>COMSTOCK: Passing an energy bill which they are working on. I should point out, the Terri Schiavo case, that you keep bringing up, every single senator supported it. It would have only taken one of them to stop it, and half the Democrats supported it in the House.</s>COMSTOCK: You don't want to face that. You want to attack your guys. Howard Dean can attack -- that's fine.</s>CARVILLE: Of course there are few bugs to work out. We'll explain next on CROSSFIRE.</s>CARVILLE: If you have always want a fixer upper the state of South Dakota has the house for you. This is the former governor's mansion in Pierre in better days. They are building a new one and giving this one away. You can have it for free but have you to use the 5200 square-foot, 18-room building for a public purpose. Here's the fixer-up information: the old house is in pieces on a storage lot right now. The current governor was forced to move out because of mice, termites, electrical and plumbing problems. Somehow that free mansion is losing its appeal. I say, the way that thing looks they must not think much of their governors in South Dakota.</s>WATKINS: I tell you, being governor must be a penalty. I hope Virginia has a nice mansion, because my buddy, Jerry Kilgore, is going to be the next governor of Virginia.</s>CARVILLE: I think Tom Kenny's going to be in it, and they do have a nice one. It's kind of small but it's beautiful. On the left, James Carville, that's it for</s>CROSSFIRE. WATKINS: From the right, I'm Joe Watkins. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE. "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now.