Does Work Environment Matter in Sexual Harassment Cases?
HARRIS: A major court decision. The owners of the New York Knicks and head coach Isiah Thomas found liable in a sexual harassment case. Does the workplace setting make a difference in these cases? We're asking Ruth Eisenberg, an employment law attorney. Ruth, good to see you.</s>RUTH EISENBERG, EMPLOYMENT LAW ATTORNEY: Good morning, Tony.</s>HARRIS: I'm going to take you on a little bit here this morning, Ruth. All right.</s>HARRIS: You ready to do a little battle here? I'm ready for you, Tony.</s>HARRIS: All right. Eleven million dollars -- plus. I'm a bit surprised, I must say, at the size of the award here. Was there something extraordinary about the allegations, the claims, the charges in this case?</s>EISENBERG: Well, he charges were fairly salacious. There were charges of pretty bad language. There were some things that Coach Thomas said that I think did not serve him well. But you also have retaliation here.</s>HARRIS: Yes. Yes.</s>EISENBERG: You know, I don't think juries like to see somebody being fired because they complained about their workplace rights being abridged.</s>HARRIS: Well, then let me jump ahead and then I'll circle back.</s>EISENBERG: All right.</s>HARRIS: Don't -- this is a woman, Anucha Browne Sanders, who was a vice president in this company. Don't we begin to seriously have to have a conversation about that position of vice president in these companies? Because it doesn't appear this was a very empowered position, that she complains about the treatment from a coworker and the next thing, she's out.</s>EISENBERG: Well, I think the message is you can't have any golden boys. You know, Coach Thomas may have been their golden boy. That's not allowed. Also, there were some -- you know, I think the management of the Garden allowed a lot of things to go on. And I think the jury looked at that.</s>HARRIS: But Ruth, she's a former college basketball player, a former college basketball star. She's not unfamiliar with a little rough talk, a little trash talk. And she's in an intense environment, the NBA. These executives are trying to put an intense product on the court. For a lot of people to claim sexual harassment because you hear some language that you don't like, seems a bit disingenuous.</s>EISENBERG: Well, no, Tony, I wouldn't look at it that way at all. I would say that you do not leave your rights at the door when you walk in the boardroom whether it's sports, whether it's law, whether it's media, or whether it's retail. And no employee should have to listen to that kind of language in the workplace. Now, she's heard it before, sure. We've all heard it before.</s>HARRIS: Yes.</s>EISENBERG: But we shouldn't have to hear it at work. And we certainly shouldn't be fired.</s>HARRIS: Yes, exactly. Should -- because I'm thinking about my daughter, and I don't want my daughter, you know, subjected to this kind of crass crap. But should the line be obvious at this point in our evolution to men and women? There is a line, it should be obvious, you can't cross it.</s>EISENBERG: I think the line is clear. Now, sure, there are some contexts that are going to differ. You know, if a football player pats another football player on the butt, OK, that may be a little different. If you work as a sex educator, there are going to be words said that are not said...</s>HARRIS: Well, Ruth, I'm going to give you another example.</s>EISENBERG: All right.</s>HARRIS: Suppose I'm in the entertainment business, I am a top executive, say, I don't know -- I'll stay inside the company because it's probably safe -- say I'm working at HBO and I'm making filmed content, and my job is to be provocative and to push that envelope. So in discussions around the office, if you're a female employee and you hear some of this language, you can't start running to HR and complaining and yelling harassment. You just can't. It's our business.</s>EISENBERG: I think you really have to look at the context, Tony. This context was the board room.</s>HARRIS: Yes.</s>EISENBERG: It didn't matter that she was a former player and that she was a tough cookie. She was a tough cookie, and, yes, there are going to be some workplaces where certain language is part of the job.</s>HARRIS: Yes.</s>EISENBERG: But the "B" word is not part of the job.</s>HARRIS: So one last question. What is -- what is the way to handle -- and I'm not suggesting this was attraction in any way. But what is the way to handle attraction at work? We know that folks in the work environment date, we know that folks in the work environment end up marrying coworkers. Again, how do we handle that situation?</s>EISENBERG: There's a big difference between sexual harassment and attraction. Right?</s>HARRIS: Yes.</s>EISENBERG: Attraction is voluntary. Sure, that's where people meet. They meet in the workplace. It's voluntary. But the nature of sexual harassment is that it's unwanted.</s>HARRIS: Yes. I just wonder if that line gets blurred sometimes.</s>EISENBERG: It does. It does.</s>HARRIS: Ruth, great to see you.</s>EISENBERG: Thanks so much.</s>HARRIS: That wasn't so tough, huh? All right. See you next time. Thanks.</s>EISENBERG: Thanks very much, Tony.</s>COLLINS: Still ahead in the NEWSROOM, a chemical fire underground. Five workers lose their lives. The investigation, ahead. Also, two toddlers drowned in a bathtub. The mother in court this morning. The father speaking out. And federal bureaucrats flying in the lap of luxury? Most are supposed to travel coach, but many are upgrading on taxpayer dollars. We'll tell you about that after a break.