Steven Avery`s Ex-Fiancee Firmly Believes He Is In Fact A Murderer; Teresa Halbach`s Family Speaking Out For The First Time
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST OF "DR. DREW" PROGRAM: Tonight, an HLN exclusive. Steven Avery`s ex-fiancee is telling us, she now believes firmly he is in fact a murderer. She says for the first time publicly that he is, quote, "Not innocent." Take a look.</s>NATISHA LANCE, HLN SENIOR PRODUCER: Do you believe Steven Avery killed Teresa Halbach?</s>JODI STACHOWSKI, STEVEN AVERY`S EX-FIANCEE: Yes, I do.</s>LANCE: Why?</s>STACHOWSKI: Because he threatened to kill me and my family and a friend of mine. I was in a bath and he threatened to throw a blow dryer in there, and he told me that he would be able to get away with it. He beat me all the time -- punch me, throw me against the wall. I would try to leave, he smashed the windshield out of my car, so I could not leave him. He is like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. Semi-nice person, then behind closed doors, he is a monster.</s>PINSKY: Joining me, Lisa Bloom, Civil Rights Lawyer at the Bloom Firm and legal analyst for Avvo.com; Judy Ho, Clinical Psychologist and professor at Pepperdine University; Joseph Phillips, actor and conservative commentator and Laura Richards, Criminal Behavioral Analyst. She trained as a profiler with New Scotland Yard. And, joining us from Wisconsin, Natisha Lance, Senior Producer at HLN. She is the very person who interviewed Jodi. Natisha, she seemed to defend Avery in that documentary. She was somebody who you -- During the documentary, you look at her, you go, "Why is she staying with this guy?" Then her alcoholism comes up. Her run-ins with the law come up and now she is singing an entirely different tune. Why the switch?</s>NATISHA LANCE, HLN SENIOR PRODUCER: And, we were still asking why did she stay with this guy when we spoke to her. So, the switch here is what she is saying is now the truth. She says that the documentary was all lies. She even asked to be removed from the documentary, going to the filmmakers. They came to her asking her she wanted to do one last interview and she said, "No." And, she actually asked to be taken out of the interview completely. But, the bottom line is that, she says that she suffered abuse at the hands of Steven Avery for many years. We pulled police reports that corroborate the thing that she was saying. We also spoke to the prosecutor, who told us that she was a witness on the prosecution witness list. She was not in the trial, but he said that she was a witness on that list because of the longstanding abuse between the two of them.</s>PINSKY: Did you find her believable? Did you believe what she was telling you, Natisha?</s>LANCE: It is so hard to say. You know, my job is to get all the information on both sides. Listen to what Jodi is saying. Get all the information from law enforcement. Check out the things that she is saying and then present it to viewers and let them decide for themselves.</s>PINSKY: Now, there is something she said, Natisha, that caught my attention. She said she was so desperate to get away from Avery. She, actually, tried poisoning herself with rat poison. If this is true, it is rather dramatic. Take a look at this.</s>STACHOWSKI: I ate two boxes of rat poison just so I could go to the hospital and get away from him, and asked them to get the police to help me. We did not have a phone. He ripped that out of the wall.</s>PINSKY: All right. So, if my viewers remember, I was calling this man guilty from the beginning. He fit a profile. Lisa, any changes in opinion?</s>LISA BLOOM, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY AND LEGAL ANALYST: You know, this is a fantastic interview and it is very interesting, but it would not be admissible in court.</s>PINSKY: Why? Why?</s>BLOOM: That is probably why the prosecutor did not call her?</s>PINSKY: Why?</s>BLOOM: Because first of all, her opinion about whether he is innocent or guilty is not admissible in court. OK, but, her abuse, it might be --</s>PINSKY: Might be?</s>BLOOM: -- in some places it is strikingly similar or substantially similar, but it is not similar to what he is alleged to have done in this murder. So, I do not think it would be admissible and this woman got some credibility issues. She probably has some mental health issues if she is eating rat poison, I am sorry to say that and she lied -- what she is saying now is she lied in the documentary when she defended him. You know, she said that on tape in the documentary. Now, she is saying, "Well, none of that was actually true."</s>PINSKY: And, she really did not defend him in the documentary but she certainly seemed persuaded to defend him if she needed to. Judy, what do we call this? We are going to put a name to this?</s>JUDY HO, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: The defense that she is putting on for him as well as switching --</s>PINSKY: Well -- No, what are we going to call her? I mean she is an alcoholic.</s>HO: Yes.</s>PINSKY: We know she is an alcoholic, so is she liar, liar, pants on fire? Is that the whole story here or is this a borderline who is switching now? --</s>HO: Yes.</s>PINSKY: -- because she is angry with him and who know where the truth lies?</s>HO: Absolutely. There is a mental health issue here, just like Lisa said. She probably is on the borderline spectrum somewhere. But, that does not take away from the fact that she was abused and that he does fit that profile of what we would define as a psychopath or somebody with anti- social personality disorder.</s>PINSKY: OK. So, we have somebody who lit a cat on fire. So, it is fire, animal torture and now domestic violence. Laura, is that fitting profiles for you?</s>LAURA RICHARDS, CRIMINAL BEHAVIORAL ANALYST: Absolutely. I mean, that is the classic triad. And, I absolutely disagree. I think she gives a very clear insight into the type of person Steven Avery was. And, I agree with the fact that, actually, it does not tell us about guilt or innocence of the murder, but given that insight, ex-partners know the perpetrator the best, and these people around the perpetrator. And, I absolutely think it was an authentic account and it is a really important account.</s>PINSKY: Joseph, have at it.</s>JOSEPH PHILLIPS, ACTOR AND CONSERVATIVE COMMENTATOR: Well, I wonder whether she was -- In this interview, she was telling the truth with as much authority as she was telling the lie in the documentary.</s>PINSKY: I will tell you what. I am going to give you a chance.</s>PHILLIPS: But --</s>PINSKY: I am going to give you a chance to --</s>PHILLIPS: But, I do want to say this.</s>PINSKY: Please.</s>PHILLIPS: I want to say this. Profiling does not mean innocent or guilt.</s>PINSKY: Yes.</s>PHILLIPS: And, even if he was a wife beater, which is a horrible, horrible thing --</s>PINSKY: Yes.</s>PHILLIPS: -- and, he is a horrible person. Horrible people still deserve due process. And, it seems to me that this film is about whether or not he received due process, and if he did not, it does not matter whether he beat her or not.</s>PINSKY: Well, unfortunately -- you are right. I do not disagree with you at all. And, that is what we have been debating on this show for quite some time. But we are beginning to get a picture that this film is about making a documentary and nothing more.</s>HO: Yes.</s>PINSKY: And, it is not a court proceeding, it is a documentary. And, as such, some people participated, some people did not.</s>HO: Right.</s>PINSKY: They had to put a story together.</s>HO: Yes.</s>PINSKY: And, they gave one version to the story. Now, we are starting to hear the other version.</s>PHILLIPS: But she did participate.</s>PINSKY: Well --</s>PHILLIPS: She participated --</s>PINSKY: You are right.</s>PHILLIPS: And, she did defend him. She said that when she called him, he did not sound like he was rushed or that he had just been committing rape and murder, which I do not know how one sounds when one does that.</s>RICHARDS: Exactly. How does one sound?</s>PINSKY: Well, let me show you the footage you are talking about or some of the same footage. Here we go. This is Jodi defending Mr. Avery in the documentary.</s>STACHOWSKI: I called Steven at 5:36, supposedly when all this murder, whatever, was supposedly happening. And, we talked for 15 minutes. And, the conversation was normal. He did not sound rushed or like he was doing anything. And, if he was in the middle of doing something, we would not have talked for 15 minutes.</s>PINSKY: Natisha, did you address that particular claim with her and how in fact did she explain it away or did she?</s>LANCE: She did. She did. We addressed that specific claim. She said that he did actually sound funny to her. He did not sound rushed, but she said he did not sound normal. And, she also said because she was in jail the day that this murder happened, when she saw it on T.V., something in her gut told her that he was guilty and that he did this. And, she ,also, carried a lot of guilt, because she was supposed to be getting out of jail that day. Steven Avery was supposed to pick her up to go to an alcoholic drinking class. She was not able to get out of jail that day, and she feels like if she was out, then maybe Teresa Halbach would still be alive. But, one more thing I also want to say is that the reason she says that she said the things in the documentary is because she was afraid of Steven Avery. She said that he told her to make him look good otherwise she would have to pay.</s>BLOOM: But, he is incarcerated at that time.</s>RICHARDS: Exactly. Pay how?</s>BLOOM: He is incarcerated for life without the possibility of parole.</s>PINSKY: At the time of this stuff was --</s>RICHARDS: Well, he was in jail without -- he had not posted bail at this time. At least that was my understanding watching the documentary. So, she was going to pay how? He was just going to continue make collect calls to her phone over and over and over again? I do not know.</s>HO: But, then, again, when somebody has been abused for that amount of time, and there is a lot more than just a profile of a physical abuser here, there is a profile of somebody who has, actually, had a long string of manipulative behavior, torturing animals, multiple threats of other people`s lives. It is not just hers. And, so, that gets into the psychological aspect of a woman who has been abused. And, she has her own mental health problems.</s>PINSKY: It becomes like a Stockholm-type syndrome. But, hang on. Natisha asked why Jodi did not tell the filmmakers about the abuse and here is that footage. Look. (</s>BEGIN VIDEO CLIP0 LANCE: Did you tell the filmmakers about how you were being treated?</s>STACHOWSKI: No.</s>LANCE: Why not?</s>STACHOWSKI: Because Steven told me to make him look good.</s>LANCE: And, if you did not make him look good, what would happen?</s>STACHOWSKI: I would pay for it.</s>LANCE: How?</s>STACHOWSKI: Knowing him, he would beat me. He told me once if I did leave him that he would burn down my mom`s house with them and my daughter in it.</s>PINSKY: Lisa, it is like Patty Hurst asking her, "Why you did not talk about the abuse by the SLA," because she was a Stockholm Syndrome.</s>BLOOM: Well, that is true. And, what I love about this interview and this whole "Making a Murderer" story is it shows the criminal justice system as it really is. So, you know, I practice civil and criminal law every day.</s>PINSKY: Yes.</s>BLOOM: This happens all the time. Witnesses change their stories. They want to recant. They want to add facts. They do not like the way they look when testify the first time. They want to change everything. It is messy. And, what that boils down to in a criminal case is not proving a case beyond a reasonable doubt. I think it creates a reasonable doubt when witnesses are not clear in their testimony.</s>PINSKY: But, then you get experts like Laura, Judy, me to kind of help with the clarity because we deal with this stuff all the time and we do know who fits the profile --</s>BLOOM: I appreciate that.</s>PINSKY: Hang on. I know, but let us get some more from this exclusive Avery ex-fiancee interview. And, also, the victim`s family is speaking out for the first time. You will hear what they have to say and what they think of "Making a Murderer." We are back after this.