Interview With Mowaffak al- Rubaie
BLITZER: This is "Late Edition," the last word in Sunday talk.</s>BUSH: This new government is going to represent a new start for the Iraqi people. It's a government that understands they've got serious challenges ahead of them.</s>BLITZER: Violence surges as a new government takes over in Iraq. Can the new leadership contain the insurgency and calm ethnic tensions? We'll ask Iraq's national security adviser, Mowaffak al- Rubaie.</s>GOSS: I believe the agency is on a very even keel, sailing well. I honestly believe that we have improved dramatically.</s>BLITZER: Shake-up at the CIA. How will the resignation of Porter Goss affect U.S. intelligence? And where does the agency go from here? We'll get perspective from our expert panel: Former CIA acting director John McLaughlin, former Homeland Security Adviser Richard Falkenrath, and former inspector general of the Department of Homeland Security, Clark Kent Ervin. And welcome back. We'll go live to Baghdad and speak with Iraq's national security adviser, Mowaffak al-Rubaie, in just a few moments. First, though, let's get a quick check of what's in the news right now with Fredricka Whitfield joining us -- Fred.</s>BLITZER: Thanks very much, Fred. Let's go to Iraq right now, a country that's facing the dangerous challenge of a relentless insurgency and widespread sectarian violence. In the past 24 hours alone, there have been three car bombings and the discovery of 43 bodies. CNN's Ryan Chilcote is joining us now from the Iraqi capital with the latest details. Ryan, what's going on?</s>RYAN CHILCOTE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, as you say, a total of three car bombings in Iraq today, the first two right here in Baghdad, those insurgent attacks targeting Iraq's security forces, one of them targeting an Iraqi military convoy as it was making its way onto a military base. A suicide bomber blowing himself up in a car. He was able to get close enough to the convoy to kill eight and wound another 15. Then, the police tell us there was an attack on one of their convoys. However, it missed their vehicles, instead killing one Iraqi civilian, wounding another five. Then in the city, the Shia city of Karbala, an apparent sectarian attack there, a suicide bomber blowing himself up in a commercial, a very crowded commercial area. This is the first day of the week here in Iraq. There were a lot of people out on the streets. That attack killing five, wounding 18. All of this, Wolf, on top of some really gruesome discoveries. A total of 43 bodies found over the last 24 hours here in the Iraqi capital. Most of these people showing signs of torture, many of them still in handcuffs. Police tell us that they believe most of them were the victims of sectarian killings -- Wolf.</s>BLITZER: Well, Ryan, were they victims of Sunnis or Shiites? Were most of these 43 bodies Sunni or Shia?</s>CHILCOTE: Sometimes, they can tell right away. In this case, they could not. It's very difficult, actually, to tell. They have to have identity cards of be wearing clothing that associates them with one sect or another. Today, the police just couldn't say -- Wolf.</s>BLITZER: Ryan Chilcote in Baghdad for us, thank you very much. And joining us now, also in Baghdad, to talk about Iraq's new government, as well as plans for countering the country's deadly violence is Iraq's national security adviser, Dr. Mowaffak al-Rubaie. Dr. Al-Rubaie, welcome back to "Late Edition." It sounds like the violence is continuing full speed ahead, despite the efforts to forge a new government. What's going on?</s>MOWAFFAK AL-RUBAIE, IRAQ'S NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Well, in general, the violence is getting lower and lower, and I think it's (inaudible). If you look to the country in general, you will see that there are probably more than 80 percent of the country is secure, and people are going to their jobs, normally, while some pockets in Baghdad, some neighborhoods in Baghdad, are troublesome and hot spots. Otherwise, the rest of the capital is stable and secure.</s>BLITZER: Well, you say that, but the Los Angeles Times today writes this in a dispatch from Iraq. "More Iraqi civilians were killed in Baghdad during the first three months of this year than at any time since the toppling of Saddam Hussein's regime, at least 3,800, many of them found hogtied and shot execution style. Targeted killings now account for most of the violence." It's 3,800 people killed in the first three months of this year alone, more that any time since the war started three years ago. It doesn't sound like it's getting any better.</s>AL-RUBAIE: Well, the violence has got worse after the blowing up of the Golden Mosque in Samarra in the middle of February, and following that, there was a surge and spike of a number of violence between -- well, sectarian-motivated violence between the Shia and Sunnis. And because of the call from the political leaders, from the religious leaders, from everybody in the country, I think we are back to the -- almost to the same level as before the Golden Mosque explosion.</s>BLITZER: When will the designated new prime minister, Nouri al- Maliki, be able to form his coalition government?</s>AL-RUBAIE: I think he's putting his final touches on the new cabinet, and it's going to be an inclusive cabinet, and it's going to be including strong, meaningful representative from -- representation from the Sunni community, and this will definitely undermine the insurgency and their claim that they're not represented in the government. We believe that this is going to be a national unity government, whereby everybody's going to be represented, all Shia, Sunnis, Caldo- Assyrians, and Turkomans, Arab, Kurds -- everybody's going to be represented in this national unity government, and this is going to last for another four years. And the top priorities for this national unity government is security, economy, stimulation of economy, and also providing services to our people.</s>BLITZER: Will it happen, this new government, in the next few days, or do you think he needs several more weeks?</s>AL-RUBAIE: I don't think we are talking about weeks. I think we are talking about a few days.</s>BLITZER: Here's what the Los Angeles Times also reported today about his efforts to put together a new government, Nouri al-Maliki. Los Angeles Times writes this: "Saleh Mutlak, a Sunni lawmaker, said the main blocs had all but given up on the idea of appointing competent technocrats to key posts, and were instead determined to abide by a sectarian spoils system. Even if the new cabinet wins approval, he predicted the government won't last long under the parliamentary system now in place. 'I don't think it will bring stability to Iraq,' he said. 'I am not optimistic about this." Saleh Mutlak, do you know him? Is he credible?</s>AL-RUBAIE: I know him, and he's a credible person. And I think easy said, difficult to do. Though we would love to have Saleh Mutlak included in the government, and I think he would contribute a great deal to the government. If not, then he can stay in the Council of Representatives to represent his own -- the community who has elected him for the Council of Representatives, and he's -- I think he's a nationalist, and he's working towards unified Iraq. And we will work with him, whether it is in the Council of Representatives, or if he wants to come to the government.</s>BLITZER: Will the new prime minister take steps in the immediate days after he puts together his new government to disband the Shiite, the Kurdish, the Sunni militias that seem to be growing in strength right now, as opposed to weakening in strength?</s>AL-RUBAIE: This is the top priority of this government. I think the prime minister-designate Maliki has already mentioned that on the militia, disbandment and dissolution and the reintegration of the militia within the security forces, within the government department, within the society, and within even the private sector, helping them and sending them to vocational training schemes. Or others, we will send them to have pension, to retirement. Those who cannot serve the government or they cannot serve even the private sector, we can send them to a home, we thank you very much for everything they have done in the past in helping liberating Iraq from the -- one of the worst dictatorships in the history of mankind.</s>BLITZER: In that same Los Angeles Times dispatch from Baghdad, though, there's skepticism on this issue. I'll read it to you. "Maliki's own political coalition is supported by two Shiite militias, the Iranian-trained Badr Brigade and radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr's al-Mahdi Army. Even the country's U.S. friendly Kurdish president appears unwilling to lay down arms. On Sunday, Jalal Talabani speaking to reporters in Irbil defended the 70,000-strong Kurdish Peshmerga militia as, quote, 'a regulated force.'" There's skepticism in those words that Maliki isn't going to do anything to try to disband these coalitions since he depends on them for political support, especially the Shiite militia.</s>AL-RUBAIE: Well, all the militia leaders in this country have agreed to a law which is -- which will basically make the old militias go to be disbanded and transition, if you like, and reintegrated into the Iraqi government or Iraqi security forces. But those who -- I mean, all militia leaders have agreed to do so. And I cannot believe that they're going to go back with their work. And if we have to, there is no way we will build this democratic, federal, united Iraq with the militia around. Democracy and militia are two incompatible things.</s>BLITZER: The influential U.S. senator, Joseph Biden, the ranking Democrat on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee had an intriguing article with Les Gelb, former president of the Council on Foreign Relations in The New York Times this week. Let me read to you a paragraph from the article. "The idea, as in Bosnia, is to maintain a united Iraq by decentralizing it, giving each ethno-religious group, Kurd, Sunni Arab and Shiite Arab, room to run its own affairs, while leaving the central government in charge of common interests. We could drive this in place with irresistible sweeteners for the Sunnis to join in, a plan designed by the military for withdrawing and redeploying American forces, and a regional nonaggression pact." Is Biden right when he suggests that Iraq effectively should be sort of divided up into these three sectors?</s>AL-RUBAIE: I don't think Senator Biden has said that Iraq should be divided into three sections. What I think -- and I can't agree more with Senator Biden and his article, and I think he is a very well-informed person. What we are talking here -- and he's talking about Iraqi constitution. The constitution of Iraq has said very clearly that you can form provinces, regions, federal -- this is a democratic federal system, and any two or three or nine or 10 provinces can get together and form a region, and form a federal unit. And this is exactly what Joseph Biden is saying, or I believe when I read his article.</s>BLITZER: So you think it's a good idea, that Biden has a good idea?</s>AL-RUBAIE: I think Biden's idea is a good idea, with some modification because it's very compatible with our permanent constitution, which was ratified on the 15th of October last year.</s>BLITZER: The New York Times suggests that it basically is in effect almost already. Listen to what it wrote on April 30th. "In casual discussions, Iraqis already expressed the view that their country will be split three ways, with a Kurdish state in the north, a Sunni one in the west, and a Shiite one in the south. The Tigris River would form the border where the new Sunni and Shiite states would meet in central Baghdad, and the capital's mixed Sunni- Shiite neighborhoods would be cleansed on each side of the border." That sounds like it's already beginning to happen automatically, if that dispatch in The New York Times is accurate.</s>AL-RUBAIE: Well, Wolf, that I do not agree on. I don't think separating the country is a good idea. I think this is a unified country. This is a country which has been around for the last 5,000 years. This is the cradle of civilization. We've lived together, Shia, Sunnis and Kurds, we've lived together for thousands of years and I don't think this is a good idea of splitting the country. This is a very -- we need to build a new Iraqism, a new national identity for Iraq. This is a new Iraq based on a democratic, parliamentary, constitutional system, federal system. It has to be completely decentralized, and give decentralized region to run their own affairs with the exception of defense and foreign affairs, and a few other things. And otherwise, this has been -- what's been said -- what I have been saying is compatible and it's been mentioned in detail in our constitution which was ratified last year.</s>BLITZER: Jalal Talabani, the president of Iraq, says one of the great motivations of the insurgency, the largely Sunni insurgency, is fear of Iran. Listen to what he said on Tuesday to Al Hurrah. He said, "The insurgents do not think that the Americans are the main enemy. They feel threatened by what they call the Iranian threat." I know that Nouri al-Maliki and many of the other Shiite leaders spent time in Iran in exile, they're close to the Iranian regime. How worried should Iraqi Sunnis be about the emerging relationship between the new Iraqi government and the government in Tehran?</s>AL-RUBAIE: The insurgents in Iraq and the terrorists in Iraq are being helped by -- they are being helped ideologically, funding, as well as arms by our neighbors, certainly not Iran in this case. We've seen these suicide bombers coming across the borders from Syria. We see them of Saudi origin, we see them of Egyptian origin coming from Algeria, crossing the borders from Syria. We have not seen, and we have no material, irrevocable proof, if you like, that these people are being trained or being equipped or funded or given even ideology from Iran.</s>BLITZER: Dr. Mowaffak al-Rubaie, the national security adviser in Iraq, thanks for joining us from Baghdad. Good luck to you, good luck to all the people of Iraq.</s>AL-RUBAIE: Thank you very much. Thank you very much indeed for having me, Wolf. Thank you.</s>BLITZER: OK. Our pleasure. And just ahead, the CIA surprise. We'll get perspective on what outgoing director Porter Goss's unexpected departure means for the agency's future. Plus, new images of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, insight on what they tell us about one of the world's most wanted men. Our panel of intelligence experts standing by. And later, "In Case You Missed It." We'll give you the highlights from the other Sunday morning talk shows here in the United States. You're watching "Late Edition," the last word in Sunday talk.