Is Bush a Fiscal Dunce?
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE! On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson. In the CROSSFIRE tonight, the incredible shrinking budget surplus.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're not all that far from zero.</s>ANNOUNCER: Never fear, Congress is about to get on the case. Now are you worried? He's ready, aimed and is taking political potshots at some of the country's most prominent liberals, including some you know real well. Tonight, it's time to fire back. And did you hear the one about the famous Jewish comic? It's no joke.</s>JACKIE MASON, COMEDIAN: I have nothing against a Palestinian, because I judge him as an individual.</s>ANNOUNCER: We'll talk live with legendary comedian Jackie Mason. Tonight on CROSSFIRE. From the George Washington University, James Carville and Tucker Carlson.</s>TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Good evening and welcome to CROSSFIRE. Tonight we're trading shots with one of the National Rifle Association's top gunslingers. And comedian Jackie Mason sets the record straight about who he will and who he won't go on with. Believe it or not, we've made the cut. He will come on with us. On to our opening act, the best political briefing in television. It's the CROSSFIRE "Political Alert." Once again proving the doubters wrong, the Bush Administration continues to go after alleged corporate wrongdoers. Today former WorldCom chief financial officer Scott Sullivan was indicted on charges of securities fraud, conspiracy and lying to Securities and Exchange Commission officials. Other former WorldCom executive was also indicted. Three more will be named as unindicted co-conspirators, indicating they are cooperating with the investigation. WorldCom, of course, holds the record for the largest corporate bankruptcy in the United States, an event that started under, of course, the previous administration. Justice isn't instant, but thanks to this administration, it is coming. In fact, it has come, it looks like.</s>JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: Right. Absolutely. We all know that</s>CARLSON: I am glad you agree, James. Amen.</s>CARVILLE: George W. Bush's war hawks may think the president has the authority to take</s>CARLSON: No, I don't think he did. I'd love to see the memo, if you have a copy of it. I actually think Republicans recognize that this administration will take its case to the Hill, it's said it will, and it will. No memos involved.</s>CARVILLE: Will they take it to the U.N., too?</s>CARLSON: Of course not.</s>CARVILLE: Absolutely, the Democrats</s>CARLSON: Democrats...</s>CARVILLE: Let me ask you something. Was John Kennedy a Republican? Was Martin Luther King a Republican? Was Lyndon Johnson a Republican? Ask yourself all those questions.</s>CARLSON: For months there have signs that Carl McCall, a Democrat currently running a deemed race for governor of New York, may not be as moderate as he sounds. Now there is a proof. The "New York Daily News" say ran excerpts of columns and editorials he wrote when he worked as a newspaper editor. In the clips, McCall salutes the Nation of Islam, advocates affirmative action for convicted felons, calls for free heroin for addicts. He also attacks boxer George Foreman for being patriotic, and blasts Santa Klaus. In the most telling clip, McCall bitterly dismisses the idea of letting girls play Little League with boys. According to McCall, the only people who would support coed play are quote, "limp-wristed men who don't know the ruggedness of baseball," or burly women's libbers who are more men than women. McCall couldn't be reached for comment. He was busy trying to explain himself to gay voters. Good luck, Carl McCall.</s>CARVILLE: Yes, I think he said that at about the same period that George Bush was getting...</s>CARVILLE: I think he said that about the same period of time that George Bush was getting a drunk driving ticket.</s>CARLSON: Limp-wristed men. Good comeback, James! Keep going!</s>CARVILLE: It's always like, that was a long time ago.</s>CARLSON: Well, that's the problem with Louisiana, as I've tried to explain to you before. But the news here is, they're not supporting that guy.</s>CARVILLE: What is the problem with Louisiana? We have two outstanding United States senators, probably two of the greats, Senator Breaux and Senator Landrieu.</s>CARLSON: Senator Breaux is an outstanding man. I agree with that.</s>CARVILLE: We're going to continue that. You know, he wants universal health coverage. I hope we have him on here.</s>CARLSON: He's an outstanding man. Not all of his ideas are outstanding, but a great guy.</s>CARVILLE: Greatness.</s>CARLSON: Members of the Congressional Budget Office have declared that trillions of dollars that Congress was counting on spending over the rest of this decade just isn't going to be there. Those of you who noticed the recession September 11 and the ensuing war on terrorism probably could have guessed that. And as President Bush is found of saying, it wasn't really the government's money anyhow. Last year he and Congress decided to let U.S. taxpayers keep a good part of it. Nonetheless, screams of where did our money go, and what are we going to spend now, echo throughout the land, including New York, from where we're joined by Democratic Congressman Charley Rangel and Republican Congressman Vito Fossella. Thanks for joining us.</s>REP. CHARLES RANGEL (D), NEW YORK: Thank you. Good to be here.</s>CARVILLE: Congressman Fossella, why do you think the Clinton Administration was so much more fiscally responsible than this administration? What was it about President Clinton that he had this sort of sense that we ought to pay our bills, as opposed to what you guys are doing now?</s>REP. VITO FOSSELLA (R), NEW YORK: I would respectfully disagree with that. I think right now what we're seeing is evident that what's happened in the last couple of years and really amplified by what happened on September 11 with respect to the special appropriations and supplemental appropriations. Right now what we need to do is what I think the president wants to do and many members of Congress recognize, and that is to control spending to the extent possible, and let more Americans keep more of their hard-earned paychecks by reducing tax rates and accelerating the tax cuts that were implemented last year. If we want to grow our way out of this stall in the economy, that's the best way to do it. There are those in Washington right now who just want to spend more. And I would venture to guess that most Americans out there want more incentives to save and invest, and don't want to see Congress respond with more unnecessary spending.</s>CARVILLE: So your solution is to increase the deficit even more. Let me read to you what President Bush said.</s>FOSSELLA: That's not my solution, but go ahead.</s>CARVILLE: Well, of course it is. Your solution is that, "I am mindful of what overspending can mean to interest rates or expectations of interest rates." So you want to add another trillion dollars?</s>FOSSELLA: No, what I would like to do, and you and I, I guess, respectfully disagree on this. I happen to believe in the American people and I believe when you provide them incentives by reducing tax rates across the board, you grow the economy, whether it's a small business owner or the guy who's working 40 or 50 hours a week. Some families I know back on Staten Island or Brooklyn are working two and three jobs just to pay the rent. What I want to do is to allow them to keep a little more of their money, and when it comes to spending money in Washington, as there are a lot of folks who want to do, they want to spend more of it. I disagree with that, and I think the president is in accord with that.</s>CARVILLE: So, in other words, if president Clinton passed his fiscal responsible bill, the economy tanks say, from 1993 to 2000?</s>CARLSON: No, I think in large part I think there was a Republican Congress there to keep a check on unnecessary spending. I think if you look at the history books, you'll see that a lot of the budgets that were sent forward were controlled by a Republican Congress as well as, I would argue, one of the first tax cuts in a generation that has allowed people that I represent across the board the opportunity to save and invest and to create, and isn't that what America is all about?</s>CARLSON: OK, Congressman Rangel, Democrats talk a lot about how this president has destroyed the economy and is a criminal and all, et cetera. But it seems to me that the Democratic controlled Senate has gone a little crazy. I just want to read you a couple of numbers, doubtless you're familiar with them. Senate Democrats are asking for appropriated $800 million more for agriculture than the president asked for. For Labor-HHS $6.3 billion more. In fact, Democrats have said I want more than the president asked for across the board except on defense, where they want less in a time of war. Isn't spending by Congress one of the key problems here?</s>RANGEL: Not as long as the president as the veto. You know, the president complains about every bill that comes out of the Senate, but he ends up signing those bills. Now he's beating the war drums, talking about cutting taxes again for the wealthy, and now we're going into deficit spending. What by dear friend Vito has talked about in terms of a tax cuts, it won't be to working people in Staten Island that the president's trying to take care of. It will be the high rollers and the execs that have really ripping off the economy as it is now.</s>CARLSON: But wait a second, Mr. Rangel, if we can just go back very quickly. The Congress, and you're right of course, Congress tries to pump it as much and dare the president to veto it, et cetera. But it seems like there's a little restraint missing. Just to give you one example among many, Democrats in the Senate want $75 million more for bilingual education, not in and of itself a bad thing. But why at this time when we're at war and running out of money do we need $75 million more for bilingual education? Why do we need that?</s>RANGEL: Well, if we're running out of money, how in the heck are we going support the invasion of Iraq? That's a little inconsistent. But the truth of the matter, Tucker, if you just stay with me for a moment, in order for these initiatives for the Senate to happen, the Republican controlled House of Representatives would have to go into a conference, ultimately goes to the President of the United States. So I would not worry about whatever the Senate is proposing. I'd be more concerned about what the president is proposing. And it's my understanding that he'll be asking the Congress to give another tax cuts for the rich when we get back.</s>CARLSON: I hope so.</s>RANGEL: And I think Vito must have gotten the message.</s>CARVILLE: Congressman Fossello, the president's plan to privatize Social Security by all estimates will cost at least a trillion dollars. Do you think it's wise to privatize Social Security and put us another trillion dollars in debt or do you oppose the president's plan to privatize Social security?</s>FOSSELLA: You throw numbers around, but no, I happen the think the president is on the right side of history here. And I think the more your empower American people, the more you give them the opportunity to invest on their own and being in control of their own destiny and their own retirement, the better off we'll be. Obviously, it's not coming up any time soon. But I happen to believe in the power and the freedom of the American people that when you give them the opportunity...</s>CARVILLE: Would you bring it up between now and the election, say?</s>FOSSELLA: Would I bring it up?</s>CARVILLE: Why don't you make -- yes, if it's a great proposal, why are we waiting on it? Why don't we just let this go forward and let people decide what they want?</s>FOSSELLA: No, I think...</s>CARVILLE: See if they want another trillion dollars in debt.</s>FOSSELLA: Again, I think you take the position to the deny the people the right to invest on their own. I happen to believe -- I believe the intelligence of the American people. And we've seen the growth in the number of investors that have -- have really resonate. You know, years ago when Social Security, for example, first came aboard the passbook (ph) savings rate was about the only vehicle for investment. Now we see folks with 401 (k)s, mutual funds, and that's given -- that's because people, when given the opportunity, know how to control their own lives and their future. And I think we should err on the side of doing that than saying that the government knows everything and should be in control of every decision that affects every American family.</s>CARVILLE: Now...</s>FOSSELLA: You and I disagree, and that's fine.</s>CARVILLE: Now, hold on, hold on, there's $8 trillion in the stock market.</s>CARLSON: Mr. Rangel, you -- I don't want to misquote you or misinterpret you. What you said a moment ago indicated though that you think the role of Congress, sort of come up with what it wants to spend and let the president stop it. Seems kind of irresponsible. I want you to defend (ph) one things the Democrats haven't done and that's approve the budget in the Senate despite I think the fact they're required to by the Budget Act of 1974. Why -- if the Democrats can't get their act together to approve a budget in the Senate, why should be trust Democrats in Congress to help fix the economy?</s>RANGEL: I would just like to say it's amazing how this close to the election, how the Republicans can't even say the words privatization. Everything that they want to do will be after the election. But that's OK, because it's what you call election time amnesia.</s>CARLSON: Well, why haven't they approved a budget?</s>RANGEL: The truth of the matter...</s>CARLSON: I don't get it.</s>RANGEL: ... Tucker, if you're talking about the budget, there is no Democratic way to get out of this hole (ph) or Republican way. The only thing that we can do as the president beats the war drums and uses tax cut money, the revenues that there in tax cuts, the government is being run on the contributions that working people are making to the Medicare trust fund and to the Social Security trust fund. And ultimately, it's going to be depleted as we find in 10 years when the Bush tax cuts finally go into affect, we've got to have double the number of Americans that are eligible for Social Security and Medicare. What we should have is not Republican controlled House recommendations, or Democratic controlled Senate recommendations, but the president ought to call an economic summit, see what our deficits are, see what we can afford in terms of tax cuts and to preserve Social Security and Medicare and prescription drugs. That's what we should be doing.</s>CARLSON: OK, well, we should be taking a commercial. You mentioned war drums, and we'll get back to that, the war drums beating for Iraq. Congress has more than money to worry about. When we come back, we'll ask our guests what should be done about Saddam Hussein. Do Democrats even have an opinion? Then we'll talk with Jackie Mason, a man who spent decades making people laugh. What happened last night wasn't a joke, but it did inspire our quote of the day which we'll share with you when we get back. We'll be right back.