New York City Terror Plot Uncovered
COSTELLO: New York City again a target for terror. A plot uncovered targeting the city's tunnels and millions of commuters. For more on this, let's bring in New York Senator Charles Schumer, who joins us now by phone. Good morning, Senator.</s>SEN. CHARLES SCHUMER (D), NEW YORK: Good morning, Carol.</s>COSTELLO: OK, this is what's swirling around out there about this alleged plot. Al-Zarqawi and Al Qaeda of Iraq were supposed to send money to a man in Beirut, who was working with maybe six or seven other people. And they were supposed to set up something in the United States, in New York, for someone to bring a loaded truck of -- a truck loaded with explosives through the Holland Tunnel, blow it up and flood lower Manhattan. First of all, are all of those details true? And what are you hearing?</s>SCHUMER: Well, what I -- what you've heard is correct, just to fill in some of the details. This was caught in its very early stages. There is no evidence in any way that anything was done, either purchase of explosives, even the sending of money. It was caught by the terrorists talking to one another. So this is one instance where intelligence was on the ball. Second, these don't seem to be the brightest bulbs in the terrorist lot (ph). Their plan made no sense. The Lincoln tunnel is below sea level. The waters are below sea level. And if you were to blow up the Lincoln tunnel, god forbid, you would not flood lower Manhattan...</s>COSTELLO: Well could you...</s>COSTELLO: Senator, could you compare these men to the Miami seven?</s>SCHUMER: Well, they probably were a little more sophisticated than that. I mean I don't think they had names like Prince Manna, Brother Naz (ph) and Prince whatever he was. But I don't think that, as, again, I don't think that these were at the top of the list in terms of ability, in terms of getting things done.</s>COSTELLO: OK, so there...</s>SCHUMER: Having said that...</s>COSTELLO: Senator, there's a man in custody in Beirut then. What should the United States do about him?</s>SCHUMER: Well, obviously, you know, I mean you don't want to get into details what they should do. They should find out everything he knows, who he's connected to, etc. You can't -- you have to take every one of these plots seriously. But I just, you know, you don't want to say every time they caught someone, oh, within a week, had they not caught them, something terrible would have happened. I think it shows that our intelligence is getting better and better. We are able to find these things earlier. We are able to nip them in the bud. This is a good one, in a certain sense.</s>COSTELLO: It still makes people a little nervous, especially in New York City...</s>SCHUMER: Sure. And let me tell you, I live in New York.</s>COSTELLO: ... to hear of such a plot, whether it's...</s>SCHUMER: I live in New York City. I take the subways. My daughter takes it to school every day. Obviously, you can't be too careful. And I don't mean to belittle it. I just don't want to put it at the same level as some of the others that have been found. But you take every one of these seriously. You track down every lead then you -- should you apprehend people who might be involved, you follow the leads that they give you. And as I said, our intelligence has made significant strides since 9/11.</s>COSTELLO: Are our tunnels and bridges protected enough?</s>SCHUMER: OK, well, that leads to a second point. The one thing other than the fact that intelligence got this early on that I think is important is this once again shows that Homeland Security and Secretary Chertoff's view that New York shouldn't get funding and shouldn't get funding for personnel makes no sense whatsoever. The only way you would have stopped a plot like this is added personnel. And the fact that New York's monies and Washington monies were cut while places like Dillingham, Alaska and Modoc County, California got increases in terrorist funds shows that they'd better go back and re-examine. How many plots aimed at New York do you have to have before Secretary Chertoff says New York should get a greater share of the money. And this idea that it should -- there should be a preference for mechanical devices and detection devices, important as they are, over manpower, doesn't make any sense at all.</s>COSTELLO: Senator Charles Schumer, joining us live by phone this morning. Thanks.</s>O'BRIEN: In London today, they stopped to remember the bloodiest day that the city has endured since the German bombardment in World War II. A year after the suicide bombings in the transit system killing 52, the city is back and bustling, vibrant as ever. But there is real concern about further attacks while there's a sense inside the Islamic community that they are unnecessarily under siege. Terrorism expert Sajjan Gohel with the Asian-Pacific Foundation joining us in London this morning from King's Cross Station, where the suicide bombers began their terrible trek a year ago. Sajjan, good to have you with us. This comes, this anniversary comes the day after a tape is released and words on the tape from the suicide bombers, it having the imprimatur, the logo of al Qaeda on it. Do you have reason to believe that they were acting directly on orders from bin Laden and his ilk?</s>SAJJAN GOHEL, TERRORISM EXPERT, ASIAN-PACIFIC FOUNDATION: Well, Miles, this tape that came out yesterday featured one of the suicide bombers, Shazad Tanweer. And on it, it also showed Ayman el-Zawahiri, the deputy of al Qaeda. Now, this is the strongest indication that we've had so far that al Qaeda actually was behind the recruitment, the radicalization and the execution of the 7/7 attacks. Certainly, we don't have any direct proof or intelligence to suggest that they planned it. But the assumption now is that they did have a role in this. And it is worrying and it's also significant that if that is the case, this is the first major attack since 9/11 that al Qaeda central, the organization, actually participated in. And I think they're trying to send out a message on, yesterday, to show that they will be planning more attacks at some time in the future.</s>O'BRIEN: Sajjan, at this point, though, does al Qaeda matter more as an organization or as a philosophy that people latch onto and essentially copycat on their own?</s>GOHEL: That's a very important point. We know that al Qaeda the organization has altered from being a structured group -- it's now become an ideology, a movement. The ideas and doctrines that Osama bin Laden preaches, that we see on television or the Internet, are attracted to the different terrorist groups throughout the world. You don't need bin Laden to give the green light for an attack. There are groups throughout the world with their own leadership, their own financing, their own cell structure. But they're bonded by the ideas that bin Laden preaches. And that's what's so dangerous about transnational terrorism is that it's proliferated. It's no longer confined or defined in one part of the world, as we see today.</s>O'BRIEN: I've got to tell you, it's almost haunting hearing those sirens a year after the attack. I know it's not just probably on the -- more on the order of routine. But nonetheless, let me ask you this, Sajjan. In the wake of this, authorities in London have been very, some would say, too harsh on the Islamic community. June 9th, there was an arrest that really kind of crystallized all of this. Two brothers who were rounded up. It turns out they were innocent. It caused a series of protests. One of the protesters recently, at a protest in the wake of that, said this: "When you start to violate the sanctity of Muslims in their homes and handle their mothers and fathers, then there is going to be some kind of backlash." Is there a backlash in the community? Are the authorities, in a sense, creating more recruits?</s>GOHEL: Well, I think we have to look at the factor, Miles, that before 7/7 and after the attacks, there have been a number of major plots that have been foiled by the authorities, plots that could have been even more devastating than the July 7th attacks themselves. And the authorities are under a very difficult scenario, that if they have intelligence, they have to act on it. Sometimes it's not always credible and sometimes they make mistakes. They're also normal. But we need to remember, that for the terrorists, they will want to strike at a time of their choosing. They will give no warning, no indication. You're dealing with an invisible enemy, people that are submerged into the civilian fabric of society, that can't be identified by uniform and will appear when is convenient. So the authorities are always playing a game of catch-up. They're trying to stay a step ahead of the terrorists. And certainly we do know that what happened recently with the arrests in East London, there have been those that have been trying to exploit what happened. We also know that al Qaeda itself mentioned it in the statement yesterday. One of the recruits for al Qaeda, Adam Gadahn, an American convert, was heard in the unedited transcript of the tape yesterday, talking about it. And you'll find that groups like al Qaeda will want to exploit mistakes that take place. But we also have to remember that the Muslim community is the one that is being targeted by the terrorists themselves, that are demonizing its own religion.</s>O'BRIEN: Sajjan, on a quick personal note, in the year since this attack, when you use the tube, do you look at people differently? Are you more suspicious? Do people look at you differently?</s>GOHEL: Well, I think after 7/7 suspicions certainly were raised. People were looking around. They weren't sure who to trust. If you saw someone carrying a big rucksack on the London tube, that would somehow attract more attention. But, look, London is a multicultural, cosmopolitan city. We've had to deal with terrorism in the past with the IRA. It's not something new, but it was nevertheless disturbing what transpired and the city is overcoming the difficulties that took place. The city thrives on its openness and on the tolerance that exists and it's important to remember that. And I don't feel that things have changed substantially. But we do always have to remember that the specter of terrorism is there and that the terrorists may want to try new attacks in the future. We always have to be aware of that.</s>O'BRIEN: Terror expert Sajjan Gohel. Thanks for being with us this morning. And stay tuned to CNN day and night for the most reliable news about your security.</s>GOHEL: A pleasure.</s>O'BRIEN: Carol.</s>COSTELLO: Coming up, a look at Larry King's exclusive interview with President Bush and the first lady, Laura Bush. President Bush talks about the defining issue of his presidency and gets candid about turning 60. Plus...</s>ERIC GALA, FATHER OF BULLYING VICTIM: I was just outraged. I couldn't believe what I was seeing. I couldn't believe the size difference.</s>COSTELLO: Parents fight back against school bullies. Their plan? A law against bullying. We'll explain just ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.