Sen. Jesse Helms Discusses America's Foreign Relations
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: I'm Robert Novak. Mark Shields and I will question the most powerful foreign policy-maker in Congress.</s>MARK SHIELDS, CO-HOST: He is Republican Senator Jesse Helms of North Carolina, chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.</s>SHIELDS: Chairman Jesse Helms, Ronald Reagan -- one of your favorite presidents and Bob's -- said that Mikhail Gorbachev, leader of the Soviet Union, is the kind of man you could do business with. I'm asking you right now, is the president of Russia, Vladimir Putin, the kind of man the United States can do business with?</s>SEN. JESSE HELMS (R-NC), FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN: Not yet.</s>SHIELDS: What do we need to see from him?</s>HELMS: Well, we need to hear more from him than we've heard. And we need to watch where we are sending our money and how much of it, for what purpose. We got a lot of things to straighten out with Mr. Putin.</s>SHIELDS: Do you see him, his administration, his policies and his country as being a threat in any way to the United States vital national interests?</s>HELMS: Of course, they have -- very much so. Very much so, if they decide to be so, and that's the reason we need to be careful.</s>NOVAK: Mr. Chairman, several of the foreign policy analysts in this town, say that the Russians are preparing -- have in operation SAM-10 and SAM-20 anti-ballistic missiles. Could you tell us what you know about that and how you regard it?</s>HELMS: Can't do it, because all I know I got on the fourth floor of the Capitol, and we're not suppose to speak about it. But we need to watch that. We need to be mindful of it.</s>NOVAK: What do you think, Mr. Chairman, of the agreement reached in Moscow between President Clinton and President Putin on missile defense?</s>HELMS: I don't think anything of it, and I think it's a showboat thing. The president is trying to come home with some sort of legacy and he didn't make it there.</s>NOVAK: Does it do any damage?</s>HELMS: Well, it may. But nobody's confident that it won't.</s>NOVAK: Do you think, sir, that President Clinton is going to move forward with a missile defense program that would be a protection for this country?</s>HELMS: No, sir.</s>NOVAK: What do you think of that program that he is proposing?</s>HELMS: Well, I haven't seen the details of it, but I know that he is not going to do enough to protect the American people, and that ought to be left to the next president of the United States, whomever he might be.</s>SHIELDS: Chairman Helms, the United States policy toward North Korea has been based, in large part, upon the perception and judgment that North Korea is a rogue nation. And this week, given the summit meeting between the leaders of North Korea and South Korea, is it time to revisit that and take another look at whether, in fact, North Korea deserves a second look?</s>HELMS: Carefully. And if you'll let me add a little something, I have two good friends in North Carolina, Ruth Graham, who is the wife of Billy Graham, and her son -- their son, Franklin Graham, and both of them have been working with the people in North Korea.</s>SHIELDS: On feeding them?</s>HELMS: Beg your pardon?</s>SHIELDS: On feeding them?</s>HELMS: Yes, and other things. And I believe that they have had an effect in what his happening now. I certainly hope so, because if this is the result of some of their works, then I have high hope for it.</s>SHIELDS: Well, toward that end and with that in mind, there's been some discussion in this administration, the White House, of easing sanctions towards North Korea. Should that be on the table?</s>HELMS: Well, where is the table located and where is -- when is the decision going to be made? It's too early to tell. Nobody can answer that question today with any common sense.</s>SHIELDS: But you are encouraged by the...</s>HELMS: Oh, certainly,. I think everyone is.</s>SHIELDS: Is it in any way a vindication of the Clinton policy?</s>HELMS: I don't think so. I think that it's been in the making. I think a lot of outside people -- and I mentioned the Grahams -- have been working with the people and the leadersm particularly of North Vietnam -- North Korea, excuse me, and I would be inclined to think that they've had more effect than anybody in our government.</s>NOVAK: In that connection, Mr. Chairman, we have 37,000 U.S. troops in South Korea -- had them there for half a century. Do you think it is the time to consider removing them?</s>HELMS: Yes, sir, it's time to consider it. And after deliberation, we can determine whether it's time to bring them out. It's too early for anybody to say we ought to bring out -- bring them out now.</s>NOVAK: What would be the determining factor? Whether the North Koreas are less of a threat now than they were before?</s>HELMS: Well, it depends on whether this is just a temporary lull. If it's a temporary lull we'll have to leave the people there for a while, but if it's for real, Bob, then we ought to make plans to bring those folks home.</s>NOVAK: Sir, the -- there is a visiting Western diplomat in Washington at this moment, and he is very unhappy with you because you are...</s>HELMS: Only one?</s>NOVAK: Only one.</s>NOVAK: Because you are blocking, he says, the approval of the international criminal court convention, saying that it shouldn't apply -- there should be exceptions, shouldn't apply to American troops. I understand his position is that, if we're a law-abiding country, if we're not a rogue nation, we don't have anything to worry about from the international criminal court.</s>HELMS: Well, I don't agree with him and I think he's wrong, and he's got a host of folks he doesn't like, if he just checks the list of people who are supporting me in this, including the majority leader and John Warner, right on down the line.</s>NOVAK: Do you worry, sir, that, by not participating in this international criminal court, the United States would be standing and you would be standing in the way of prosecuting the war criminals in Serbia and Iraq and elsewhere?</s>HELMS: Not at all. I just want to protect our soldiers, our military personnel over there from being mistreated.</s>NOVAK: So do you think you can still prosecute the war criminals, even if your exceptions are in there?</s>HELMS: Well, we certainly did it before, you know.</s>NOVAK: Are you -- you're not against the international court entirely, you just don't want it to apply to the U.S., is that...</s>HELMS: Well, I -- as constituted, I don't like it.</s>NOVAK: In entirety.</s>HELMS: That's right.</s>NOVAK: You're -- the ambassador to the United Nations, Richard Holbrooke, just this week has come out saying that the present peacekeeping procedure of the UN is inadequate and we should have -- there should be a formalized procedure for some military control over that procedure, not just civilian control. Do you agree with that?</s>HELMS: Well, I certainly do. And that doesn't mean I agree lock, stock and barrel with Richard Holbrooke. But a lot of thinking needs to be done and not left to a president. And I'm not going to attack President Clinton on the judgments that he made. But it's a way that we ought to follow and study and make whatever arrangements that need to be made that can be justified.</s>NOVAK: What about some kind of military supervision or whatever?</s>HELMS: Yes, sir.</s>NOVAK: OK, we're going to have to take a break, and when we come back we'll talk to Jesse Helms about Cuba, and we'll talk a little domestic politics as well.</s>SHIELDS: Senator Jesse Helms, no one has ever accused you of being an uncritical admirer of President Bill Clinton. In fact you said in an earlier broadcast that he was not a good commander in chief on the Novak show. What is there in George Bush's -- George W. Bush's background that suggests he would be a good commander in chief?</s>HELMS: Well, I think he's proven himself as an executive as the governor of Texas, and of course I've visited with him on a couple of occasions, and we've gotten down to the nitty-gritty about things that he believed in and I believe in and so forth. But I think he'd be a great president.</s>SHIELDS: Nothing particular -- experience in his background.</s>HELMS: Not that I know of.</s>SHIELDS: And on that, you've discussed things with him, but I was just thinking, on China you and he disagree; he was for U.S. intervention in Kosovo; he's for keeping Bosnia -- troops in Bosnia, no deadline. How does the Republican chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee going to get along with the Republican president, if George W. Bush does win? Some areas of disagreement, right?</s>HELMS: Well, one thing he understands is that this is a tripartite form of government: the executive, the legislative and the judicial. Bill Clinton does not understand that. He thinks he's the king, and he makes decisions and he expects you to follow, and I'm not going to follow a lot of things that he did. President Bush -- and I hope he will be President Bush -- he understands that. And I think he will work well with Congress and that'll be a novelty, certainly since 1992.</s>NOVAK: Mr. Chairman, one of the decisions that President Clinton did make was to send Elian Gonzalez back to Cuba. And since it looks like the court appeals are not promising, is there anything that can be done to prevent that from happening?</s>HELMS: I guess not. I talked to the attorney general, Janet Reno, at the outset and I told her we had -- as she knew -- that we had courts all over the land handling custody disputes, you know. And she listened very politely, and then she said, Senator, I know how you feel and I appreciate that, but I don't agree with you. Which was my signal to anticipate that she would do exactly what she did.</s>NOVAK: Do you think, sir, that before President Clinton leaves office -- in the remaining few months -- he will make an attempt to normalize relations with Cuba?</s>HELMS: Well, I don't know how he's going to normalize relations with a government that's headed by a communist tyrant. Now they try to make all sorts of comparisons between Cuba and other countries, China, for example, but Cuba doesn't have anything to govern it except Fidel Castro. And I talked not so long ago with his daughter about that. And she agrees with those of us who feel that it's time for Castro to get out of there. It never was time for him to be in there, as far as I'm concerned.</s>SHIELDS: Senator Helms, the Republican party, in the late '80s, deserved and earned the reputation as being the tough on communism party. And yet when it comes to China, all the Republicans seem to go weak in their knees. What happened?</s>HELMS: Well, not all of the Republicans.</s>SHIELDS: Well, tell me about what happened to your party.</s>HELMS: Well, I don't think it happened to the party; it happened to individuals who are making a mistake in my judgment. Of course, they think I'm making a mistake by opposing.</s>SHIELDS: All right. This week we've seen disclosures at Los Alamos of breaches of security of enormous dimensions. What should be the consequences for the people in charge, including the secretary of energy?</s>HELMS: Well, I can't specify what should be the consequences of that, except whoever was lax, whoever made the mistake, it ought to be dug out, dug in, laid out, so the American people can know what happened. That's probably not going to happen. But that is a tragic thing, and the trouble about it is, that we don't know how much we've lost. That's what bothers me.</s>SHIELDS: Well, on that very subject: former Senate Republican Leader Howard Baker and former Democratic Chairman of the House Foreign Affairs Committee Lee Hamilton of Indiana have been appointed as an investigating team. Do you have confidence, knowing both men, that they'll get to the bottom of this?</s>HELMS: I know they will do the best they can. Lee Hamilton I've worked with on many occasions. Howard Baker is one of my best friends, and he was majority leader, as you know, of the United States Senate. And I think they'll do their best. And they are both competent men.</s>NOVAK: Mr. Chairman, Madeleine Albright is just finishing her fourth year as secretary of state. You have a good personal relationship with her, but I want you to put on your hardboiled hat...</s>HELMS: All right.</s>NOVAK: ... and tell me -- give me a grade on how you would grade her as secretary of state? Performance?</s>HELMS: Well, I'll give her A for effort. She has tried hard. She's worked hard. She hasn't answered as much mail as she ought to, not only to me, I have to dig up and call up down there and fuss and fight and everything else to get answers to simple questions. But she has tried and she is a dedicated lady. But I have an idea that she'll be glad when next January rolls around herself.</s>NOVAK: She has been -- one of the things she's still dealing with is the Middle East. What do you think of the role of the United States in getting a Middle East settlement if it means more aid for Israel and other countries in order to effect a settlement perhaps with Syria?</s>HELMS: Well, I'll tell you that minister over there who proposed to sell a lot of fighting equipment, military equipment, yesterday, I think it was, or one day this week, I am worried about him and I think they're giving away too much. I'm one who has felt that Israel is the best ally we have in that part of the world and I try to view it, suppose we had to have -- that there was no Israel and we had to have the warships and airplanes and the troops and everything else to protect our interests in that part of the world. It would be expensive. But I am amazed by what's going on in the giveaway in Israel right now of property.</s>NOVAK: You believe they're giving away too much?</s>HELMS: Yes. I don't think there's any question about it. And this business where they're going to sell planes and whatever to China, I just don't understand that. And I think we ought to maybe just cut off the foreign aid to make up for the difference in what...</s>NOVAK: All -- cut off all foreign aid...</s>HELMS: No, no. Just let him...</s>SHIELDS: Make up the difference.</s>HELMS: ... let him pay us for the plane he's selling to China.</s>NOVAK: We're going to have to take another break, and when we come back we will have "The Big Question" for Senator Jesse Helms.</s>NOVAK: "The Big Question" for Senator Jesse Helms. Mr. Chairman, the Republican Party is supposed to be the pro-life party, but Pat Robertson, the president of the Christian Coalition, has said he could accept Governor Tom Ridge of Pennsylvania, a pro- choice Republican, as the vice presidential running mate. Could you except Governor Ridge?</s>HELMS: Well, I like Pat Robertson. He's been a friend for a long time, but he's not speaking for me on that.</s>NOVAK: You couldn't accept a pro-choice running mate on the ticket?</s>HELMS: I could not accept that one.</s>NOVAK: Why particularly that one?</s>HELMS: Well, he's been out front. He's been out front, and I just am pro-life strongly enough that I want somebody who is at least willing to listen, and I don't think he would be.</s>SHIELDS: But you would consider a pro-choice running mate if you thought that that running mate was open to debate -- discussion?</s>HELMS: Well, you have to answer a question like that with the word "whom." You know, who's it going to be? I've got a lot of friends, as the saying goes, who are pro- choice, and we don't fuss and fight about it, but somebody who is that sensitive about the thing and so outspokenly in favor of abortion, to put it bluntly, I would have to take a back seat on that and say, no thanks.</s>SHIELDS: Jesse Helms, thank you for being with us.</s>HELMS: Well, thank you.</s>SHIELDS: My partner and I will be back with a comment in just a moment.</s>SHIELDS: Bob, Pat Robertson, founder of the Christian Coalition, has said he could support pro-choice Pennsylvania Governor Tom Ridge as George Bush's running mate, but Senator Jesse Helms made it clear that the choice of Tom Ridge will leave him cold and maybe even outside the tent.</s>NOVAK: He was -- he left no doubt about that, Mark. He left no doubt how much he likes Madeleine Albright. He said he gives her A for effort, which for a conservative Republican in a Democratic administration is OK. But in the time that Bill Clinton has been in office, Jesse Helms has not softened on him. He says he thinks President Clinton thinks he's a king; can't get around with him; doesn't understand the American government; he left no doubt on that, either.</s>SHIELDS: He left no doubt, Bob, in fact this week of the Korean summit, with North Korea and South Korea and good news, maybe even a thaw over there in that peninsula, Chairman Helms was reluctant to give any credit to the administration of Clinton in any way -- in fact gave more credit to Billy Graham's wife and his son than he did to any American U.S. policy.</s>NOVAK: That's unusual. I'm going to make a personal observation, that you certainly are not associating with, Mark...</s>SHIELDS: Thank you, Bob.</s>NOVAK: ... but I consider Jesse Helms one of the great Foreign Relations Committee chairmen of all times, because he doesn't work for any of these international organizations and the Council of Foreign Relations. He is trying to represent the American people. Sometimes I might disagree with him. I agree with him most of the time, but I think he's a great chairman because he is for the American people, not some international group. I'm Robert Novak.</s>SHIELDS: I'm Mark Shields. Coming up in one half-hour on "</s>RELIABLE SOURCES": Should the media pay so much attention to vice presidential speculation? And tonight, at 7 Eastern, the "CAPITAL GANG" discusses the shake-up in the Gore campaign and the candidates' plans for the budget surplus with Republican Senator Paul Coverdell.</s>NOVAK: And be sure to join us next week when our guest will be Senator Edward M. Kennedy of Massachusetts. Thanks for joining us.