Sandberg Urges Women to "Lean In"
SHERYL SANDBERG, COO, FACEBOOK: Because of the position I'm in, I feel I have that responsibility to speak out on behalf of all women. We deserve equal pay, we deserve equal voice, we deserve to sit at any table we want to sit it.</s>O'BRIEN: Go for it, sister. That's the Facebook COO Sheryl Sandberg, talking about her new book, which is called "Lean In." We want to continue the conversation. We started a little bit earlier today, because the book is also being used to launch a nationwide movement to empower women. And Rachel Thomas is the president of Lean In, the organization, which was created in conjunction with the book. Have you found that this debate -- and sometimes it's kind of a fierce debate about all of this -- has increased the number of people who are interested in Lean In, the movement?</s>RACHEL THOMAS, PRESIDENT, LEAN IN: So I think this is a really good thing. The more that we're talking about women and women in the workplace and issues that are relevant for us, the better. So we've been very excited about the very active dialog, and what I hope it spurs is more individual conversations between manager and employee, parents and siblings -- I mean, parents and sons and daughters, and husbands and wives.</s>O'BRIEN: Take a drink of water, because I want to ask you a question about your Lean In moment. I know a little bit about your background. You start -- went to work in startups in tech and then you'd had one that ended up falling apart, and you didn't lean in, you leaned out?</s>THOMAS: I did. So years ago, as a recent grad, I ran a company that had a very kind of difficult end, and I really did feel myself lean back for a point in time -- and I actually think we all do. We all have moments when we lean back. And it really took some time to get my confidence again. And confidence is an issue for all women.</s>O'BRIEN: Wasn't the leaning back good? I mean, wouldn't you say that it was valuable in that moment to lean back and not lean in?</s>THOMAS: So I do think there is a time and a place. I think there is a French phrase, which is kind of leaning back to lean in. And so I do think there are --</s>O'BRIEN: (Inaudible). It does.</s>THOMAS: -- I think there's different moments in time --</s>O'BRIEN: Lean back to lean in.</s>THOMAS: -- but I think the fundamental issue is women are actually less confident than men. So we underestimate our ability slightly; men overestimate their ability. Men need to be 100 percent qualified -- I mean, women have to feel 100 percent qualified to apply for a position. Men don't. They can feel partially qualified and that's enough. So really understanding those issues and having an open dialog about them, we think, can make a material difference.</s>O'BRIEN: A lot of the book is just a lot of stats and research about women in the workplace, the percentages of which they apply for jobs, you know, just all the research.</s>O'BRIEN: -- was very fascinating.</s>THOMAS: I think one of the great things about the book, is Sheryl has really put herself out there. And I can speak for myself personally, I have felt self-doubt; I have felt a lack of confidence. And knowing --</s>O'BRIEN: Because are you a human being.</s>THOMAS: Exactly. And knowing that --</s>BERMAN: (Inaudible), too, though, let me say --</s>THOMAS: I think that's a great point. And lot of men have read the book and say a lot of the message in the book resonate with them as well. We all, as human beings, feel a lack of confidence. Just women in generally underestimate our abilities where men generally overestimate abilities.</s>O'BRIEN: Want to run a little clip of what Sheryl was saying to Katie (ph) about -- talking about children, because I think a lot of this conversation really is rooted in the fact that women have kids and that is sort of where we differ with men and kind of how we think about our jobs. Listen.</s>SANDBERG: We don't talk to our bosses and we don't talk to our employees about you might want to have a child one day. I'm here to help you. I think we can change that.</s>O'BRIEN: Do you think that we can change that? You know, the advice I have always given young women is never, ever, ever mention the dreaded "I am going to have a child" phrase because your bosses will absolutely positively not appreciate that.</s>THOMAS: But imagine a future state where this is actually part of our national dialog. Women and men are actively talking about this as a topic. I know right now it sounds daunting to go from something we generally don't talk about to make it a very open subject. But we're losing women when they start to have families and we're losing women and they're not making it all the way up to leadership positions. I think really addressing this is very important.</s>KATHERINE ROSMAN, REPORTER, WALL STREET JOURNAL: I think there is often an assumption in workplaces that a woman of a certain age, you know, might potentially have a child and I don't -- I don't know. I felt it was irrelevant to me personally. I never felt myself held back and I'm a mother and, you know, never -- I wasn't like running around saying I can't wait to be a mother. But I certainly never hid it. And it's just you do your job and you do it well and work hard.</s>O'BRIEN: I had a lot of conversations where people feel like if you are interesting in being a mother, that what you're saying is I don't really have a commitment to being -- when I had my wins, which were my fourth -- third and fourth children, the head of the company said to me, well, you know, you're not going to know how you're going to feel about coming back? I'm like, I have four kids, I have to work. Are you kidding me? I am the only employee here who has to come in, in six weeks when my maternity leave is done. I was joking with him but there was this sort of assumption, like well you know, you may not have to even think about coming in. That person who is responsible for your career is not -- you know I can tell, not betting on you, if they are thinking --</s>ALEX MCCORD, VH1'S COUPLES THERAPY: Yes well, that's for the executive to have, I mean they are not going to be heralding the best talent.</s>O'BRIEN: I don't think it's unusual. Go ahead.</s>MCCORD: Well we have to step in and lean in because if we don't take baby steps, nothing is ever going to change. So yes it's polarizing and yes everyone has got a lot of opinions on it. But if we don't talk about it, we will never get anywhere. I think what she's doing is great. I think we can all take what resonates for us and it's individual. We're not all going to be Sheryl, but let's all take a step forward.</s>THOMAS: And I think an important point to make is there is a moment to make that decision in your life right. If you have a child and you want to decide to stay home or want to decide to stay in the workforce, but what Sheryl has seen a lot and I think all of us have seen is very young women starting to worry about that, starting to internalize a decision they don't need to make yet. And if they kept their foot on the gas and they advanced, they're sitting and looking at a different decision the day they make it. Now they're a senior manager, or there are a director, and they moved ahead with all of their peers and then they're making a decision as opposed to have leaned back and have lost opportunities and just not looking at interesting or dynamic a role on that decision day. I think that's a big part of the message.</s>O'BRIEN: It's going to be interesting. I sit down with Sheryl Sandberg tomorrow to talk about all of this. And you know she's kind of put herself now, right in this maelstrom of some people who think that she's a villain for saying. You know some have framed it as she's blaming women for their role in this, which is not what the book says. Other people heralding what she is doing and sort of creating this movement. You know I think as an individual, right, that's always a crazy place to be in the middle of the swirl of a debate. And be front and center your face on it. It will be interesting to chat with her about that. You can catch my interview with her. It's going to be starting next week on Monday on STARTING POINT. Coming up next, so if you want -- if you like curly fries, you must be smart. If you like science, you might be dissatisfied with life. We're going to tell you what your Facebook likes say about you. Yes, I'm not making this up, John Berman.