John Kelly Under Fire; Interview With Former U.S. Secretary of Homeland Security Jeh Johnson
TAPPER: Welcome back to STATE OF THE UNION. I'm Jake Tapper. Retired Four-Star General John Kelly was hired to bring order to President Trump's White House. Now the chief of staff is under fire for allegedly mishandling the domestic abuse allegations against White House Staff Secretary Rob Porter. The scrutiny reached such a fever pitch that, according to a source, Kelly made clear he would resign if that's what President Trump wants. Kellyanne Conway, you just heard, just told me that the president has full faith in Kelly. But a source tells CNN the president has been asking friends about other potential chief of staff replacements. Joining us now to discuss this and other issues is someone who has worked with General Kelly, the man who preceded him as secretary of the Department of Homeland Security, Jeh Johnson, under the Obama administration. Secretary Johnson, good to see you. Thanks for being here.</s>JEH JOHNSON, FORMER U.S. SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY: Thanks for having me, Jake.</s>TAPPER: So, I have to ask you, you have described Chief of Staff Kelly as a friend of yours.</s>JOHNSON: Yes.</s>TAPPER: Obviously, we all respect his service to this country, the great sacrifices he and his family have made. Reports are emerging that key figures in the West Wing were aware of the allegations about Rob Porter, including Kelly, and did nothing about them for months until they became public. You have worked with General Kelly. You said he is a man of character and integrity. Are you surprised by how Kelly has handled this situation?</s>JOHNSON: You're correct that John is a friend of mine. We got to know each other at the Pentagon when he was the military aide to the secretary of defense and I was the department's general counsel. When I was secretary of homeland security, he was commander of U.S. Southern Command. We have both been to Robert's grave site together at Arlington.</s>TAPPER: His son who died in Afghanistan.</s>JOHNSON: His son. And I hope John continues to be a friend. I think -- my friendly advice to him is less press -- that may be contrary to the interest of people in the press -- fewer public statements. Leon Panetta once said that the chief of staff is someone who should not be the issue. And so I encourage John to hunker down and do his job, fewer public statements. Now, this issue with Porter...</s>TAPPER: You think he should stay in the job, though?</s>JOHNSON: I think, as long as Donald Trump is president, our government is best served if John Kelly is in the job of chief of staff. That is my view. It may be a minority view among my Democratic friends, but that is my view.</s>TAPPER: You were talking about Porter.</s>JOHNSON: Yes. This issue should have surfaced in the initial background check, in the initial security clearance process. I have been through it a number of times. And so there had to be a reckoning of this issue sooner or later, and, apparently, he was sitting there with an interim security clearance. That's not an ideal situation in national security, to have people with access to very sensitive documents and information who are operating on an interim security clearance. So, in that respect, it is quite surprising and disconcerting.</s>TAPPER: So, to play devil's advocate, if you were a chief of staff or secretary of a department, and you had a very trusted, close, and efficient aide, top aide, who did an excellent job -- and let's, in this hypothetical, say that perhaps it is a somewhat chaotic environment -- and it came out in the FBI background check that he had two ex-wives, two ex-wives accusing him of domestic abuse, what would you do?</s>JOHNSON: Well, it's -- I don't know Mr. Porter, so it's hard to say. I don't know his strengths. I have heard others describe his strengths.</s>TAPPER: Let's assume he is the best staff secretary in the history of staff secretaries.</s>JOHNSON: When you're in public office, you have to assume, sooner or later, everything is going to get out, whether it's tomorrow or the next year. And you have to balance the blowback from something like this that has not come out, that should have come out much earlier, against the strengths of the person who is in the job. And some sort of calculation was made there, and we're seeing the effects of that right now.</s>TAPPER: But you wouldn't necessarily say, you need to go?</s>JOHNSON: An issue like this, you have to realize that it is going to be a big deal when it becomes public news. It's going to become...</s>TAPPER: And it will come -- and it will become public news.</s>JOHNSON: And sooner or later, something like this always comes out. And in this particular environment, this was going to be big news. And, sometimes, you have to make the hard choice to move on and try to find somebody else.</s>TAPPER: I want to ask you about the president's decision to send back the Democratic memo from the House Intelligence Committee which is rebutting the Republican Nunes memo...</s>JOHNSON: Right.</s>TAPPER: ... alleging FISA abuses by the Justice Department and the</s>FBI. JOHNSON: Right.</s>TAPPER: The president -- President Trump OKed the Republican memo,, over the objections of the FBI and the Justice Department, which said it was misleading. He released it anyway. The Democratic memo, he has said has too many sources and methods, and he sent it back. What is your take on all of this?</s>JOHNSON: Well, I do think that the full story should come out. Apparently, the Democrats feel that the Nunes memo is misleading by omission in a number of respects. So, I do believe the full story should come out.</s>TAPPER: Not just the Democrats. The FBI and the Justice Department think so as well.</s>JOHNSON: Very definitely. If -- taken on face value, what the president is saying is, rewrite the memo and then we will declassify it. So, there ought to be ways in which the Democrats, the House Intel Committee, can rewrite the memo without compromising sources and methods, and get the full story out about what they feel is misleading about the Nunes memo. And it should not be an issue. I hope it is not an issue.</s>TAPPER: I want to turn to North Korea. The Winter Olympics began in South Korea on Friday and featured South and North Korea marching under a unified flag. Kim Jong-un's sister is attending the Games. She met with the South Korean president. She's even invited him to visit North Korea, Kim Yo-jong. The sister is the first member of the North Korean ruling family to set foot in South Korea since the Korean War. Do you give any credit to President Trump's North Korea's policy? Maybe it's working? Maybe it's driving the North Koreans to some sort of rapprochement with South Korea?</s>JOHNSON: I think time will tell. I don't believe that the rhetoric between the two leaders has been helpful. And if you know history, you know that great nations can stumble into armed conflict. Great nations can miscommunicate, misunderstand each other, and, in an overheated environment, stumble into armed conflict. And that is my great concern here.</s>TAPPER: Do you have any concern with the fawning coverage that the North Korean -- the sister of Kim Jong-un is getting and the fact that maybe she is actually managing to score a propaganda coup here, not just with some people in the press in this country, but also with people around the world, including the South Koreans?</s>JOHNSON: Well, I find the overture from the North Koreans to South Korea to be interesting. It's an interesting dynamic in this whole issue. And you're correct. She has captured a lot of attention. Who knows? We will have to see. Again, my concern is that we not stumble into something that is not necessary.</s>TAPPER: That's an eye on the bigger picture. Secretary Johnson, thanks so much for being here.</s>JOHNSON: Thank you.</s>TAPPER: We really appreciate it. He helped lead the movement behind Trump's election victor. Now former Trump insider Steve Bannon says there is a movement -- quote -- "even more powerful than populism" that might be able to bring President Trump down. What is it? It might surprise you. That is next.