Should Police Keep Files on People They Consider Potential Lawbreakers?
HARRIS: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE. I am not Arthel Neville. I'm Leon Harris sitting in for her today. She's off for the week. We are talking with Jim Fotis and Pam Hayes about crime prevention, and whether police can keep files on people that they identify as potential future lawbreakers before they even do break a law. And we've got some comments. Let's try to get some more from outside of the studio here. We've got Leo (ph), who is with us on the phone, calling in from Delaware. Is that correct, Leo (ph)? Hello, do we have the caller? I guess we don't have the caller. Anyway, let's go -- we had some comments in here from the audience, Jim and Pam, and I'm surprised to hear -- actually I saw a few eyebrows being raised when I heard you, Jenny (ph), making the comment that you made. Why don't you share it with us?</s>JENNY: All I said is that I feel that if the crime was not so bad, they wouldn't be looking at doing this and trying to put the list up to prevent things from happening.</s>HARRIS: Well, how about that Pam? As a matter of fact -- now, come on, let's be honest about it. If you lived in that neighborhood -- I mean, and we all have seen neighborhoods like this, and we know that there is crime being -- we know that drugs being sold, and we know there is some unsavory activity going on there. Why not be allowed to use that common sense?</s>HAYES: Listen, it's not common sense. This is a very dangerous precedent.</s>HARRIS: Well, what your eyes see and tell you every single day is common sense, is it not?</s>HAYES: If you're standing out there, Leon, and they are just snapping pictures, you're going in to visit a friend who still lives in that neighborhood, and they are snapping your picture and they put your picture in that bank of composites that they have, I have a problem with that. I need to know the correlations between this program that they started -- I need to have their stats between June and August to see what has worked. How many people in this group of photos that they have taken or this list that they have compiled have gone out and committed a crime? I don't have any of that information, and on its face, and I think it's horrific.</s>HARRIS: How about that, Jim? What ever happens with those lists? And in fact, are they ever culled out, do you know? Is there any talk about what happens? I mean, like once your name or your face makes that list, it stays there forever, you never get to graduate out of there? What happens -- I mean, what happens with all of this?</s>FOTIS: Well, it all depends. Again, these are -- probably most of these people are -- have some type of record, priors -- things like that. And I don't -- can't say that they are just going out, the police officers, and photographing people on the street. What I have heard is that it's in conjunction with other arrests and other stops. Now, we have had problems in this country with racial profiling. We want police to keep a record. Well, this is probably the best record and the best documentation that police can have. This way, we are doing our job, looking at what's happening in a neighborhood, and we're trying to protect the citizens, plus we're keeping a record so nobody can say we're picking on one particular race or individual.</s>HAYES: Listen, we know there is racial profiling in America. Ask the state of New Jersey. They have been paying out millions dollars to settle cases. The question is: Does this procedure help? Give me the stats, tell me how many people on the list or in the data bank have gone out and committed crimes between August and -- excuse me -- between June and August?</s>HARRIS: Well, Jim...</s>FOTIS: All I...</s>HAYES: You know, you need that type of information.</s>FOTIS: Pam, all I can tell you is arrests last year were 160, and they are up to 240. And they have gotten three guns, they have gotten over five pounds of cocaine, six pounds of marijuana, several grams of heroin. I think that's a good job in a short time.</s>HARRIS: Well, let me ask...</s>HAYES: But we need the correlation. I need to know whether this is good police work, because they have done a job and an investigation, or whether this particular project that they have is the one that yielded those results.</s>HARRIS: Well, let me ask you this, Jim. I mean, when you say...</s>FOTIS: That was the project, from what I understand.</s>HARRIS: Well, Jim, you say it's not racial profiling. And if it's not then, is it not, if nothing else, a great, big, wide, open invitation to it?</s>FOTIS: I'm sorry, Leon. I don't understand the question.</s>HARRIS: The thing is if you're saying this is not racial profiling, if you're saying that a police officer is allowed to do this and make their own decisions on the street about who it is that they happen to subject to this, doesn't this open the door to invite those who might be willing to do it to racially profile people?</s>FOTIS: Well, I mean, there is always that potential, but you've got 600,000 police officers in the United States that make over 40 million stops. How many cases of racial profiling do we get a year in this country? A minute amount. Very, very few confrontations arise between police and individuals that are stopped or even arrested.</s>HARRIS: All right, let's...</s>HAYES: One is too many for me.</s>HARRIS: All right, listen, we've got the phone problem straightened out, and we've got Leo (ph) on. I want to get Leo (ph) in here, because as I understand it, Leo (ph), I'm being told that you actually know some of these police officers who on these jump squads?</s>LEO: Yes.</s>HARRIS: Tell us about that.</s>LEO: I am from Wilmington, and I just want to say that these areas where these jump squads are going to, they are high crime areas. They happen to be -- of course, there are more minorities there, but they are high-crime areas. The people love what's going on, because now, they have their quality of life back. And these people do get surveillance on them before these squads come out, and it's not like someone who happens to be walking by is going to be grabbed and photographed. They are being surveilled, and you know, they are given their rights. There are people that are just hanging around on the corners with the guys that are committing crimes. I mean, I'm at a red light, and they look at you, and they want to come to your car like they want to sell something. And there's always people hanging around there. And those people that are hanging around know that these other people are doing a crime, and although they are not doing the crime at that time, like the lady who talked on your show earlier, you're hanging around them. And eventually, you're going to be doing something for them as far as a criminal activity.</s>HARRIS: Let me ask you this, Leo (ph) -- Leo (ph), let me ask you before you get off the line, Leo (ph). How do you -- just to play devil's advocate here, how do you know that people that live there want this and like it?</s>LEO: Well, it's in the newspapers. I mean, this is being publicized in the paper. The mayor, you know, has talked about it. As a matter of fact, the mayor is African-American, and he is sensitive to minorities. The people in those neighborhoods are talking about how they can go out and walk their kids in the neighborhoods. You know, the crime is going down now, and they're happy about that.</s>HARRIS: Thanks, Leo (ph), appreciate that -- thank you for the call. Let me ask you to get one more person in the audience that's got a comment. Nicole (ph)?</s>NICOLE: I just -- the whole thing just really concerns me. I was going back to the comment that she made -- I'm not sure what your name is, I'm sorry.</s>HAYES: It's Pamela.</s>NICOLE: Pamela, sorry. I'm just really concerned about who is making the list, what is the list going to be used for, and what are the criteria, and where does it stop? You know, if the policeman doesn't like you one day, you're hanging out on the corner, you're walking by, oh, put him on the list. He hasn't done a thing, and it just really concerns me that they are doing this.</s>HARRIS: And, Pam, I would think that that would concern you as well as an attorney?</s>HAYES: Yes. You know, it just doesn't seem to have any standards or correlation. We don't know about what they are actually doing. I was told that they take pictures, they surveil. It's nothing wrong with surveilling people. That's what police who walk the beat do. They are walking and surveilling. But when you start reducing these things to writing in a permanent forum, I have a problem. And it's not just about race. It's about class, because I don't understand if they're looking to prevent crime in neighborhoods, why they're only in low-income neighborhoods?</s>HARRIS: Well, we'll have to leave it at that particular point. Jim Fotis and Pam Hayes, thanks to both of you. Hey, maybe sometime down the road we can talk about this later, after we get some analysis and see if this really did make a difference, and if people do really keep it and like it. Thanks for joining us today. We appreciate it.</s>FOTIS: Thank you.</s>HARRIS: Coming up, we're going to take a break right now. And after that: Should schools sell soda pop? And we'll tell you who is going to ban it in their school system right after this.