Guest Panel Discusses Politics and Religion
LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, Bush versus Kerry. Born again versus Catholic. Does religion when picking a president? One week before the election we'll ask religious leaders Max Lucado, minister and bestselling author, the Reverend Jesse Jackson, twice a candidate for the Democratic presidential nomination, Pastor John MacArthur, the nationally syndicated Christian broadcaster, Father David Hollenbach, professor of theology at Boston College. And Reverend Barry Lynn, executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and States. And then, Tommy Lee, the rock'n roll wild man speaks out on Pamela Anderson, a honeymoon sex tape, jail time, the tragic drowning of a little boy at his son's party, his new reality show and more. It's all next on LARRY KING LIVE.</s>KING: We have a terrific show tonight. Let's spin right into it. Let's deal with the obvious. Max Lucado in San Antonio. Should religion matter in an election campaign?</s>MAX LUCADO, EVANGELICAL CHRISTIAN MINISTER: Well, genuine religion has to matter. We elect character. We elect a person's world view. Faith can define that world view. If that faith is genuine and sincere, then that needs to connect. American population says 85 percent of us say that religion matters to us. 72 percent of us say that the religion of a president matters to them. I think it's an important issue.</s>KING: Since everybody ever running for office talks about God, how do we know who has real faith and who has not, Reverend Jackson?</s>REV. JESSE JACKSON, RAINBOW PUSH COALITION: You tell a tree by the fruit it bears, by its behavior. People of the Christian faith and its mission is to preach good news to the poor and it is to heal the broken hearted and set the captive free but that would be against slavery and racial segregation. So in Dr. King's book "All Against Segregation in Alabama," the white right wing churches attacked him. The</s>KING: So you know it by their deeds.</s>JACKSON: You know it by their deeds and so to that extent your faith should at least inform other priorities. So it seems to me, Larry, if you're a person of this faith, it has something to do with how you treat the least of these and how you treat those whose backs are against the wall.</s>KING: John MacArthur, if I'm Christian should I vote for someone because they are a Christian.</s>PASTOR JOHN MACARTHUR, EVANGELICAL CHRISTIAN: I think there's a natural affinity to do that, if somebody is genuine Christian with a genuine relationship to the Lord Jesus Christ who takes the Bible as their absolute authority which is what true Christianity affirms, how could you not vote for your brother because you know his convictions will be faithful to the word of God, they're going to be faithful to the things that God has established for society, for the family, and for the individual.</s>KING: And you have to take that individual for his word.</s>MACARTHUR: I think you go beyond that. I think you take him at his word but you look at his life. If there is a genuine relationship to the Lord Jesus Christ in his life it's going to manifest itself not just in his attitude toward social issues, it will show up there, too, but it's going to manifest itself in morality, in virtue, in character that shows up in every aspect of his life, plus he's going to have a love for God, a love for scripture and a love for the true church.</s>KING: Father Hollenbach, if that be true, what does a Jew do with this dilemma?</s>FATHER DAVID HOLLENBACH, PROFESSOR OF THEOLOGY, BOSTON COLLEGE: The Catholic view of the role of religion in politics is that religion should be a source of inspiration for people to commit themselves to the common good of our whole society. That means the good of everybody, the good of all. The good of those who have been left out, like the poor, the good of those who have lost their jobs and need to regain those jobs. Catholic views are strongly committed to building up the society, building up the community, and therefore, a Jew and a Catholic can join together in promoting the common good for all of us, especially for those who have been left out, those children who are uninsured, without health care and those who have been left out as poor or marginalized in our society.</s>KING: So you don't say vote for a Catholic because he or she is a Catholic?</s>HOLLENBACH: I vote for the person who can promote the common good of our society. That's what the Catholic position on voting is all about, how do we promote the well-being of our society. The political sphere is a sphere that concerns the well-being of everybody in that society, and Catholics support that well-being of everybody. Therefore, we vote for those who support the common good, especially the good of those who are left out or left behind.</s>KING: Reverend Lynn, you're an ordained minister of the United Church of Christ. You stand for the separation of church and Christ. How separate? Should religion not be a part of politics?</s>REV. BARRY LYNN, EXEC. DIR., AMERICANS UNITED FOR SEPARATION OF CHURCH & STATE: Well, I think the first thing I hope we all agree on is that there is no state election official in any state that has God as a registered voter. Which means we don't know if God is a Republican, a Democrat or perhaps even a Naderite or a libertarian. I think Americans do want their candidates to have a moral center, they do want those candidates to have values and principles and be able to articulate those and tell us what kind of policies they would adopt and those kind of policies that they would have for the rest of the country. However, I don't think it matters how many times a candidate goes to church, if he goes to church or how well versed he is in the Holy Scriptures or the Christian Bible or any other holy document. That's where I think we're making a terrible mistake this year. We're actually linking decisions to vote with very partisan political ideas and very clear religious ideas, merging religion and politics as if God in fact was clearly on one side of the political aisle and not the other. That's the danger.</s>KING: But Reverend Jackson, if I want to vote for someone because he represents my whatever values, it's my business isn't it?</s>JACKSON: Yes, but we live in our faith, we live on the law. And people of faith fight for just law. That's what the Moses/Pharaoh fight was about. That's what the Daniel/Nebuchanezzar was about, fighting for just law. So how we manifest that today, one says that we must fight to raise the minimum wage for working people. If you can't work your way out of poverty, then what? A fight for overtime pay for overtime work, a fight that make seniors more secure.</s>KING: Can't you be a good person, a religious person and not agree with an increase for another economic reason in minimum pay? Must you be for minimum wage?</s>JACKSON: Not necessarily so. If you are a rich young ruler, you see life from the mansion down not the manger up. Therefore you tend to fight for that which favors the rich as opposed -- Christianity is driven by -- it's really kind of a poor person's religion, born in a manger, defining character, how you treat the least of these. In many ways with, our religion informs our public priorities.</s>KING: Max Lucado, isn't that a good point, shouldn't the good Christian be first for the poor?</s>LUCADO: God doesn't exist to bless America, America exists to bless God. Nations come and go and have since the beginning of time and if the Lord tarries will continue to come and go forever. The purpose of nations is to be a studio in which God can do his great work. So I would agree with the Reverend Jackson that the role of a government is to reflect the will of God. The danger is when we try to apply our government and our preferences to God and tell him what to do, where our questions should be as a government and as a people, God, what do you want us to do? That's the big question.</s>KING: John MacArthur, does God care who's elected?</s>MACARTHUR: I think not only does God care, but according to Romans 13, God ordains leadership, God ordains who those leaders are, God in his sovereign providential purposes is unfolding history his way. I really do believe that the powers that be as Romans 13 says are ordained by God. That not only is government but that God lifts up and puts down leaders, and rulers and kings and he always has. He has an agenda however that's far greater than perhaps we would ever be able to comprehend. We can't always know what his invisible hand is achieving. My concern is not that all the people in political office or all the people with social responsibility in this nation necessarily be Christians. But if I have the choice to choose someone that I know has Christian convictions that are consistent with the word of God, then I know that's going to best for the country because the Bible was written by the Maker and he knows what's best for his creatures.</s>KING: Let me get a break and we'll be right back with our panel. Tommy Lee to come. Tomorrow night, by the way, Senator Richard Shelby will debate Senator Joe Biden on American foreign policy. And two outstanding op- ed writers of the "New York Times" will go at each other. Maureen Dowd and William Safire. We'll be right back. Don't go away.</s>GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I believe that God wants everybody to be free. That's what I believe. That's been part of my foreign policy in Afghanistan. I believe that the freedom there is a gift from the Almighty. I can't tell you how encouraged I am to see freedom on the march. So my principles that I make decisions on are a part of me and religion is a part of me.