Trump Threatens Shutdown in Tense Oval Office Meeting with Democrats
HARLOW: One day in a morning after a very ugly and very public meeting. The president this morning is taking aim at Democrats once again over the spending showdown less than 24 hours from when President Trump had the meeting, said he'd gladly take the blame for the shutdown.</s>SCIUTTO: Yes, thirsty is an understatement for how that meeting --</s>HARLOW: Oh, yes --</s>SCIUTTO: Went yesterday. But for all the back and forth, and let's admit it, theatrics on both sides, sources on Capitol Hill say that the government shutdown is not necessarily a lock, and that the Oval Office spectacle may be a good thing to help both sides reset to work on a deal. That's putting a rosy story --</s>HARLOW: All right --</s>SCIUTTO: Let's discuss now with Ron Brownstein; Cnn senior political analyst and Matt Lewis; Cnn political commentator. Matt, I want to begin with you, because the "Wall Street Journal", of course, conservative editorial page, they seem to say that the Democrats got the better of this meeting by the president taking ownership of a potential shutdown. I'm going to quote here, "whether Mr. Trump was merely following his script or erupted at Mr. Schumer's goading, the president abruptly took political ownership of shutting down the government next week over funding for his border wall." Do you agree?</s>MATT LEWIS, SENIOR COLUMNIST, DAILY BEAST & CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, look, I think that they're operating under a normal traditional paradigm which Donald Trump is playing a completely different game. So yes, what they're saying is basically, I think, conventional wisdom. You know, you should never say you want a shutdown because shutdowns are bad. And if you get blamed for a shutdown, there will be consequences. You will lose in the court of public opinion.</s>SCIUTTO: Yes --</s>LEWIS: And there you may lose election. I think my argument, which is a contrarian argument, is that all of those things matter to normal politicians, but they don't matter to Donald Trump. I think if you watch the theatrics yesterday, it was Chuck Schumer who looked very uncomfortable. I think Donald Trump came across as actually dominant. I mean, he's the president, so that makes sense. It's -- he's playing a home game --</s>SCIUTTO: All right --</s>LEWIS: There, his turf. I think that --</s>SCIUTTO: I thought Pelosi did a pretty good job pushing back against it --</s>LEWIS: She was OK, she's tougher --</s>HARLOW: I think it was Mike Pence who said so much --</s>SCIUTTO: Yes --</s>LEWIS: The last thing I'll say and then I'll shut up is, what does Donald Trump have to lose, right? And he just lost the House, there's not going to be another election for two years. He looks authentic. He looks like he wants transparency by bringing in the cameras, and he's tough. He's always been a base player. He wants -- his base wants this wall, and guess what? If impeachment becomes a reality, if it starts to get serious, he will need his base, that's what this is about.</s>HARLOW: So, Ron --</s>RON BROWNSTEIN, SENIOR EDITOR, THE ATLANTIC & CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Hello --</s>HARLOW: Let me just jump in here --</s>BROWNSTEIN: Yes --</s>HARLOW: I want you to respond --</s>BROWNSTEIN: Yes --</s>HARLOW: But you've been tweeting about these numbers, and I want to bring them --</s>BROWNSTEIN: Yes --</s>HARLOW: To our viewers as well --</s>BROWNSTEIN: Exactly --</s>HARLOW: Because the president --</s>BROWNSTEIN: Right --</s>HARLOW: Said, let me quote more of him yesterday after this meeting. "If we close down the country, by the way, I will take it because we're closing it down for border security. I think that wins every single time, no, it doesn't, not among the American people." Look at the new Marist poll, "Npr", "Pbs" poll out this morning, 50 percent of Americans think the wall is not a priority at all, 19 percent think it's not an immediate priority, Ron, that's almost 70 percent of Americans --</s>BROWNSTEIN: Right --</s>HARLOW: Who don't see it the president's way. So this is a --</s>BROWNSTEIN: Right --</s>HARLOW: Big gamble, no?</s>BROWNSTEIN: Absolutely, look, the message of this last election is very clear. That it isn't only the base of the Republican Party that votes. I mean, Republicans lost the House popular vote by almost 10 million votes by a bigger margin than Democrats did in '94 or 2010. And the fact is, not only are government shutdowns unpopular, the president is proposing to shut down the government over an idea that is deeply unpopular, 60 percent of the public has consistently invariably opposed the idea of building a wall every time it has been polled in his presidency. And that includes preponderant majorities of all the groups that just gave Democrats control of the House. Three-quarters of millennials oppose building the wall, two-thirds of independents opposing building the wall, 60 percent of college-educated whites oppose building the wall. So again, I think this is an indication as Matt I think correctly says, that the president is invariably focused on his base. But the base are not the only people who vote, as we were just ready to point --</s>SCIUTTO: Yes --</s>BROWNSTEIN: And reminded. And I also note that in 2020, you have Republican senators, unlike this and unlike the 2018 environment in places like Maine and Colorado that are trending Democratic and where this kind of base first politics I believe is kind of a, you know, a sentence for ending their careers.</s>SCIUTTO: You know, Matt, you have seen some Republican commentators who say that in the data -- forget their opinions, but in the data from the midterms, that the wall issue, the immigration issue did not do as well for Republicans as the president and other Republicans imagined. Now, I wonder if you share a similar concern.</s>LEWIS: Well, look, first of all, I would say, we're two years out. I think this is probably part of Donald Trump's calculus. Here, Republicans shut down the government and got blamed, I think rightly blamed for it in 2014 in September. They ended up doing pretty good two years later. So there's a lot of time between now and whenever --</s>SCIUTTO: Yes --</s>LEWIS: The Republican senators are going to be up for re-election. I also think -- I don't want to say I don't believe the polls, but I think that they don't fully capture the immigration issue and the intensity. I saw polls for the last five years even on the Republican side. You would look at external polls or -- you know, talk to people who voted in a Republican primaries, they would never rank immigration as a top issue. You know, they really said they don't care that much about immigration. They're actually -- they're OK with a pathway to citizenship, and yet Donald Trump, every single time I think exploited that issue --</s>SCIUTTO: You know, but I'm not talking purely about the poll --</s>LEWIS: Thank you --</s>SCIUTTO: I'm talking about how people voted in the midterms on this --</s>HARLOW: Yes --</s>BROWNSTEIN: Yes --</s>SCIUTTO: Not an express to an issue --</s>LEWIS: And --</s>SCIUTTO: Which is the more operational data, right?</s>BROWNSTEIN: And the wall -- you know, look, the wall has become some -- you know, it's become say much more than an immigration. It really has become a symbol of whether or not you accept a changing or welcome or fear a changing America. And the idea that this is not an intensity issue on the other side, on the Democratic side, I think it may have been true once, no longer true. I think it is an absolute symbol for the Democratic coalition of resisting --</s>LEWIS: What if he gives them</s>DACA -- BROWNSTEIN: The kind of --</s>LEWIS: What if he gives them DACA though, what if they turn --</s>BROWNSTEIN: Well, you know --</s>LEWIS: Down DACA?</s>HARLOW: We're waiting and waiting always down there --</s>BROWNSTEIN: Yes, well, don't forget, last year that -- don't forget that last year that --</s>HARLOW: Guys --</s>BROWNSTEIN: Deal was on offer when the White House also demanded massive cuts in legal immigration. And I don't think there is a wall deal with the Democratic House majority. I just --</s>SCIUTTO: Yes --</s>BROWNSTEIN: Think it is too overwhelmingly opposed by the groups that created that majority.</s>LEWIS: I agree, and that's why I think Trump actually could end up winning this one, because if he offers DACA, and says look, all I want is some funding for border security for a fence --</s>SCIUTTO: Right --</s>LEWIS: A fence, but I'll give you DACA. Is Nancy Pelosi going to be in a position to say yes to that? So I don't think it's --</s>BROWNSTEIN: Well, look --</s>SCIUTTO: That's a fair, that would be a lot tougher thing --</s>BROWNSTEIN: Last year, that deal was on offer --</s>SCIUTTO: That -- also, but that would be a lot tougher thing clearly for the Democrats to turn down. But hasn't been a lot of talk --</s>BROWNSTEIN: Right --</s>SCIUTTO: About that, we'll see, who knows? The president is a deal maker, Ron Brownstein, Matt Lewis, thanks very much.</s>LEWIS: Thanks --</s>SCIUTTO: President Trump's former attorney and fixer could face a lengthy term in prison. We're on top of that story.</s>HARLOW: Right, that's in less than two hours. We're also just minutes away from the opening bell on Wall Street. Futures pointing slightly higher this morning. Investors pointing to a renewed optimism about U.S.-China trade negotiations. But there are a lot of other major issues between the U.S. and China that could severely complicate that. We'll get into all of it ahead.