Donald Trump On Rudy Giuliani's Trip To Dig Dirt On Rivals: He's Found Plenty; Joe Biden To Iowa Voter: You're A Damn Liar, Man
CABRERA: President Trump is not trying to create any distance from his Attorney Rudy Giuliani's brazen trip to Ukraine this week to dig up dirt on political rivals. Instead he's touting just how much Giuliani has allegedly found?</s>TRUMP: Rudy, as you know, has been one of the great crime fighters of the last 50 years, and he did get back from Europe just recently, he has not told me what he found, but I think he wants to go before Congress, and say and also to the Attorney General and the Department of Justice I hear he's found plenty.</s>CABRERA: We should know one of the sources say Giuliani appears to have been met with is a former Ukrainian diplomat, who has pushed the debunked conspiracy theory that Ukraine, not Russia meddled in the 2016 election. He also met with a Ukrainian lawmaker who has been described by anti-corruption experts as having suspect political motives. Also there's no evidence of wrongdoing on either Joe Biden or his son Hunter's part. And President Trump's effort to get dirt on the Biden's from Ukraine is why he is under the impeachment investigation? With us now Former Vermont Governor Howard Dean Former Special Assistant to President George W. Bush Scott Jennings and CNN's Political Commentator Ana Navarro. So Governor, as a Former Presidential Candidate and DNC Chair yourself, you know campaign laws. Is this legal?</s>HOWARD DEAN, FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Is what legal?</s>CABRERA: What Giuliani has been doing?</s>DEAN: Sure. What Giuliani is going over making stuff up and lying it's legal for Giuliani to do that. It's not so legal for the President of the United States to do that though.</s>CABRERA: But if he's doing it on behalf of President of the United States, and he is specifically digging into getting dirt on a political rival of the President in the upcoming election, I think that's where it gets little murky, doesn't it?</s>DEAN: Look, we're talking about two different things. We're talking about what may or may not be legal, and we're talking about what's honest, decent and moral? This is the most corrupt administration that's ever been in the White House throughout 250 years of American history. So there's that, and the President surrounded himself with people who are corrupt, not a surprise. And the Congress in the United States, the Republicans are in terror of this corrupt President, and they don't care stand up for their country, they stand up for their own puts in the next election. If that's what you want me to say, I'm happy to say it, but I'm not going to render an opinion about whether Rudy going to Ukraine or not is legal it's unethical but it's probably legal.</s>CABRERA: So Ana actually Republicans aren't necessarily defending what Rudy Giuliani is doing. Even Congressman Matt Gates a staunch defender of the President isn't trying to defend Giuliani listen.</s>REP. MATT GAETZ (R): I think it's little weird that Rudy Giuliani is over in the Ukraine right now. And I'm not here to defend Rudy Giuliani.</s>CABRERA: So if Republicans aren't even trying to defend Giuliani, why is the President embracing him so much?</s>ANA NAVARRO, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Of course I think they have known each other for a long time and because Rudy has proven himself to be loyal to Trump, blindly loyal. That's something that Trump really likes. Also, I think Trump embraces some of these conspiracy theories which Giuliani seems to be espousing, advocating and promoting, but Republicans need to be nervous. About the possibility of Giuliani actually showing up to testify in front of Congress, listen, he has been unstable. We have seen him be unhinged. We have seen him contradict himself within seconds in the same interview on this network with Chris Cuomo. His performances on TV have been abominable if I were a Trump supporter, I would be nervous about the idea of Rudy going on TV much less swearing - giving sworn testimony in front of Congress.</s>CABRERA: Scott, the final impeachment hearings in the House begin Monday, but the White House Counsel is refusing to take part, and after all complaining about the President not getting due process, and here is this big chance and he's not taking it. Why?</s>SCOTT JENNINGS, FORMER SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO PRESS GEORGE W. BUSH: Because they don't want to legitimize the impeachment process in the House. They from day one called it a sham, called it a circus, to show up now here at the end when it wouldn't matter, any way by the way. Nobody from the White House is going to change the House Democratic conference's mind about impeaching this President, would simply serve to legitimize it. I think they'll keep their powder dry and put on some kind of a defense when the impeachment articles hit the Senate. And they think they'll get a better playing field over there.</s>CABRERA: Among Democrats there has been this ongoing debate about whether any of Mueller's findings should be included in articles of impeachment. Here's Congressman Jim Himes on that.</s>REP. JIM HIMES, (D): I don't know how you look at volume 2 where Bob Mueller says here are ten instances of obstructions of Justice, a crime that would send every - they would send every other American to jail. I'm not quite sure how you look at those ten counts and say, yes, we ought to let that slide.</s>CABRERA: Governor Mueller's report did not unify Democrats around impeachment the way Ukraine has, so what should Democrats do?</s>DEAN: Look, I personally believe there's a lot more corruption in the Trump Administration than simply trying to use a foreign power to leverage your election. So there's many, many sins here, Trump believes a great offense is the best defense. In a court of law, that doesn't hold up. I agree with Ana, that Giuliani is never going to testify before Congress, because he is a lawyer, he's smart. He knows that he can't lie under oath. If he does, his own lawyers are going to tell him not to. He's probably one of the few people in the White House actually listen to say lawyers, because he is a lawyer. So I personally believe there's a lot more smell here in Trump's Administration than we probably ought to slow down a little bit and take a look at some of that too.</s>CABRERA: But do you think they should incorporate some of what Mueller put in his report, the issue regarding obstruction of Justice? Should that be part of any articles of impeachment that the Democrats may be planning to put together?</s>DEAN: That's a legal judgment not a political judgment, as I said, I would like to broaden the investigation from political reasons and because I think Trump is guilty of those things. But you know Jim Himes I'm pretty sure is an attorney and there are a lot pretty good attorneys. Adam Schiff is one of the best I know. I think that scope of the investigation really is up to the lawyers in the House who know what they're doing, and I don't have a law degree.</s>CABRERA: But one of the reasons I ask that, and Ana I may ask you this, because you know if they bring Mueller into this, we know the President and his supporters have been trying to brand all of this as just an extension of the Mueller saga. So if they decide to include something from Mueller's report, would that play into the narrative that the President and his allying have been trying to put out?</s>NAVARRO: I think so. Look, the narrative is Democrats wanted to impeach Donald Trump from the day he got elected. So I think they need to make it narrow and need to stick to what is the strongest case. Ironically I think the Mueller report yes I think this impeachment, this possible impeachment is the direct consequence of the Mueller report. When the Mueller report came out, Rudy Giuliani and Donald Trump interpreted it to be carte blanche, they could go out and do anything and it was the next day that they were on the phone out trying to get, you know, get dirt on Biden. That wasn't by coincidence. The timing here isn't a coincidence. They thought they had a green light, so it was the Mueller report that in one way led to where we are right now. If they tried to put everything that Donald Trump has done wrong, which some of us think is criminal, unethical, un-presidential into these articles of impeachment, there wouldn't be enough paper in America to carry it. They can't put in the emoluments clause; they could put in the stuff about the hush money payment during the campaign, which was probably a campaign finance violation. They could go on and on and on, but these articles of impeachment have to be narrow hand focused, and what can be proven quickly in a short amount of time. Even though he's done enough things to fill up an encyclopedia, it's not the smart thing to do at the moment.</s>CABRERA: Scott, the President did get some really good jobs numbers this past Friday, and we now have a unemployment rate at a 50-year low, can Republicans count on voters being willing to overlook the President's scandals because of the economy?</s>JENNINGS: Well, I think that's exactly what the Republicans are going to try to do next year, is argue that things are going so well in the country that it would be foolish to switch parties in the White House. Having such a good economy really underscores how out of touch a lot of the Democratic Presidential Candidates have been in their rhetoric on the economy. Most Americans don't follow politics, you know, day after day, hour after hour, minute by minute the way we do. Every now and then they look up, they check on what's going on in their own life, they check on generally what's going on in the country and what do they see? Things seemed to be going well, people have jobs, wages are going up. My 401(k)s up, my kids 529 college savings account is doing okay. And they think you know what? I don't know why would we want to change party? So that is a legitimate tactic the Republicans will use next year. And frankly, it's hard to beat an incumbent President anyway. I think 32 have run for re-election, 22 have been re-elected. When and you have economic this good helping this many people all across the country, all across all of demographic groups, I think Donald Trump's is got a very, very good argument about why it would be foolish to change parties.</s>CABRERA: Governor, you're no stranger to viral moments on the campaign trail. So I wanted to get your take on this moment between Joe Biden and voter this week in Iowa.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're selling access to the President -- just like he what.</s>JOE BIDEN (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You're a damn liar, that's not true. And no one has ever said that.</s>UNIDENITIFIED MALE: I didn't say you were doing anything wrong.</s>BIDEN: You said I set up my son to work in an oil company? Isn't that what you said? Get your words straight, Jack.</s>CABRERA: What did you think?</s>DEAN: I think it was a good moment for President, I mean for Vice President Biden. I do want to disagree with Scott on one point about the economy. In general he's right about when the economy does well, the President does well. The trouble is this economy isn't doing well for a whole lot of people. We just picked up 40 seats in the Congress, because a whole lot of people are worried about what Trump's doing to health care. That still remains the largest issue that polls much more so than Trump's corruption. So it is true that a good economy helps the incumbent President. It may not help this President as much, because there's so many he's left behind. In terms of Joe's moment, I think Joe has had a good week. I have no idea who is going to be the nominee and frankly I have no idea who I'm going to vote for, but we have four front-runners right now, and a couple of other people who could become front runners and I'm just looking forward to this.</s>CABRERA: Howard Dean, Scott Jennings and Ana Navarro, thank you all for being here.</s>CABRERA: Electability is weighing heavily on Democratic voters who want to beat President Trump, even if that means switching from a liberal candidate like they like to a more moderate one. Hear from voters in Iowa, next. You're live in "CNN Newsroom".