Ceremony for Justice Ginsburg on Capitol Hill; How Social Networks are Disrupting Democracy.
CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to FIRST MOVE and a look at how social media is influencing election strategies and voter perceptions ahead of the U.S. Presidential Election. Our Donie O'Sullivan investigated the impact of misinformation on some Trump supporters.</s>AUDIENCE: (Chanting "Four more years. Four more years. Four more years. Four more years.)</s>DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN BUSINESS REPORTER (on camera): So we've come to a trump rally in Bemidji, Minnesota to ask from supporters what they see when they open their Facebook feeds.</s>DAVID, TRUMP SUPPORTER: No one has been more wrong more often than Biden.</s>CARRI, TRUMP SUPPORTER: The November 3rd election result may never be accurately determined.</s>O'SULLIVAN: On that post, is there any label or fact check or anything?</s>CARRI: Yes, they have a little thing at the bottom that says voting by mail has a long history of trust worthiness in the</s>U.S. O'SULLIVAN: Are you a Facebook user?</s>SCOTT, TRUMP SUPPORTER: I use Facebook, yes.</s>O'SULLIVAN: Yes, so what sort of pages do you follow on there?</s>SCOTT: Anybody that agrees with me.</s>O'SULLIVAN: Only people that agree with you? You don't want to hear --</s>SCOTT: That would be a Republican and anti-abortion guy and pro-gun and pro-beer.</s>O'SULLIVAN: But you're not thinking it would be good to follow pages of people you disagree with, see their opinion?</s>SCOTT: No, because they call me stupid, ignorant. Why would I follow people that throw rocks at me constantly because they don't agree with me? I've got tens of thousands of people that do.</s>O'SULLIVAN (on camera): So Trump, his campaign, a lot of senior Republicans over the past few weeks have been sharing doctored and manipulated videos on social media. Now, the Trump campaign and Trump supporters will often say, these videos are clearly jokes. They are memes. People know they are memes. People know they are fake.</s>CHRIS, TRUMP SUPPORTER: When they say, well, this is fact checked, it's wrong, because it's taken out of context. Like when Joe Biden fell asleep during a live interview on television.</s>O'SULLIVAN: They claimed he fell asleep. I think that was an edited one, right? That was --</s>CHRIS: I didn't think it was. It looked pretty live to me, with no cuts in it.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Live this morning, from New York, hey, good morning. Wake up. Wake up, wake up.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He can't hear anything.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is your wake-up call.</s>O'SULLIVAN: Is this the video that you are talking about.</s>CHRIS: Could be. Yes.</s>O'SULLIVAN: Biden falling --</s>CHRIS: Can I watch it really quick?</s>O'SULLIVAN: Sure.</s>CHRIS: This is "The Washington Post."</s>O'SULLIVAN: So an article there is saying that it was faked, but it looked real, right? I mean, it looked real.</s>CHRIS: Well, I mean -- I definitely wouldn't doubt that it would happen.</s>O'SULLIVAN: Even if it is fake, does it change your opinion of Biden?</s>CHRIS: God no. You've got to sift through it. I missed that one, but it was a good laugh. It was a really good laugh, and like I said, I wouldn't doubt it.</s>O'SULLIVAN: A lot of people we spoke to today are sharing posts on Facebook that later get fact checked by Facebook's third-party fact checkers.</s>MARY PARSONS, TRUMP SUPPORTER: Anything I put on there about our President is generally only on for a few minutes and then all of a sudden, they are fact checking me saying this, that and the other thing, which I know is not true. Their fact checkers are wrong.</s>JOHN JENNIGES, TRUMP SUPPORTER: They will right away go to the conservative site and say that's wrong and then they pull it, and they're not going to the liberal sites, and them are the real lies. They are the real liars out there.</s>O'SULLIVAN: Also circulating online, more insidious forms of misinformation including baseless claims about Vice President Joe Biden being a pedophile. Do you guys seriously think that Joe Biden is a pedophile?</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I do, but that's my opinion.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I feel he is. I feel he is part of the game of the whole thing.</s>O'SULLIVAN: That baseless fabricated claim about Biden is circulating among supporters of QAnon, a conspiracy theory that the F.B.I. says is a potential domestic terrorism threat. Some of these false claims have been amplified by the President himself.</s>O'SULLIVAN: The F.B.I. is saying QAnon is a dangerous conspiracy theory. Does that make you think should I be following this thing?</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, because QAnon is bringing up the bad things about the F.B.I. that's why they're saying it. That's why they're afraid of it.</s>CHATTERLEY: Donie O'Sullivan reporting there. And that was just one side. It's clearly a problem for supporters of all -- both parties in the United States and it is just a small subset too of what users are facing. The question is how did we get here? Well, a new Netflix documentary says we're going manipulated. Here is a quick look.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What I want people to know is that everything they're doing online is being watched, is being tracked, every single action you take is carefully monitored and recorded.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A lot of people think Google is a search box and Facebook is a place to see what my friends are doing. What they don't realize is, there are entire teams of engineers whose job is to use your psychology against you.</s>CHATTERLEY: The director of "The Social Dilemma" Jeff Orlowski is now with us. Jeff, great to have you on the show. I have to say, I wasn't surprised when I watched this documentary but I know many people who were shocked, really shocked.</s>JEFF ORLOWSKI, DIRECTOR, "THE SOCIAL DILEMMA": Yes.</s>CHATTERLEY: Was that the intention?</s>ORLOWSKI: Yes. Well, when we were doing a research, it was very shocking to me, so I think for sure the hope was to share some of those revelations with the general public. I think there are people who -- it is kind of ironic, there's a conversation around filter bubbles, and there's a filter bubble of people who know about what's going on in tech and then, there is the rest of the population that kind of don't know what's going on behind the screen, and in many ways, the film was designed for that audience.</s>CHATTERLEY: There was a brilliant bit at the beginning of the documentary, where a former employee said we were just 50 white guys in Silicon Valley, able to influence two billion people.</s>ORLOWSKI: Right.</s>CHATTERLEY: And I have to say the hairs on my arms rose. Because that's exactly what's going on in many different ways.</s>ORLOWSKI: It is. It is. I mean, a handful of engineers are programming our entire society at this point, and that was one of the things I realized. We all interact with these devices every day and the phone itself isn't the problem in my mind. Screen time, like there's some concerns there, but that's not what's causing the real polarization and the breakdown in mental health and the breakdown in politics and civil discourse and conspiracy theories. Those are happening through these platforms that we don't pay for. There's a saying that we have in the film, if you aren't paying for the product, you are the product, and what that results in is this kind of domino effect of consequences, all through this one business model that is micro targeted advertising business model that is having impacts on teen mental health, having impacts on democracy, as a whole.</s>CHATTERLEY: I mean, you do pay because you pay with giving your data and I think the documentary spells out very, very cleanly how this data is used.</s>ORLOWSKI: Yes. Right, right.</s>CHATTERLEY: It's manipulated. It is used to predict people's behavior and then it is used against consumers effectively to monetize them, but to your point, it has an echo chamber effect, where people only really see the views that they already agree with.</s>ORLOWSKI: Absolutely, and the clips that you just played a second ago is a perfect, perfect example of what we're seeing for everybody. You know, when I was working on the film, I started to learn that Russia was pushing out anti-fracking propaganda, and I had a stance on fracking that I had to really question like why do I think what I think? Why do I believe what I believe? I've told many friends, if you are getting your news through social media, I'm not going to trust your opinion on news and politics. It is really, these platforms have broken and distorted our entire information ecosystem at this point. The way that news and information is distributed in our world has been morphed through these platforms.</s>CHATTERLEY: It's interesting, because some of the employees as well were saying we started out just trying to connect people.</s>ORLOWSKI: Yes.</s>CHATTERLEY: There was a utility value, a good purpose for doing this and it almost became Frankenstein's monster and it got out of control. Social media is a drug. That was one of the other strong lines from this.</s>ORLOWSKI: Yes. Yes. Absolutely. I don't -- I feel a lot of empathy for the tech insiders who went into this very innocently or very positively, trying to build tools that would help society, but they went down this path, this inherent vice of designing around a business model that was not compatible with society.</s>ORLOWSKI: I draw the same parallel to the fossil fuel industry. When we first discovered fossil fuels, it seemed like this great opportunity for humanity and civilization to travel farther and to have more power available to us and only years later did we realize, wait a second, there are some really bad consequences to burning fossil fuels. The same thing with our technology, we're realizing a decade into this, the consequences that this business model is having on breaking down the fabric of society itself.</s>CHATTERLEY: Oh, speaking of that, former Facebook executive Tim Kendall in this documentary, he said his biggest short-term worry was Civil War.</s>ORLOWSKI: Yes.</s>CHATTERLEY: And I think you look at what's going on in the United States and the anger and the conflict between two political parties, two months out from an election, and ...</s>ORLOWSKI: Right.</s>CHATTERLEY: ... it resonates.</s>ORLOWSKI: It does. You know, we did that interview over a year ago and we were constantly asking ourselves, okay, if this thesis is correct, if this mindset here around what this technology is causing to society, happening - - creating in society, what will this look like a year out or a few years out? And that was sort of this trajectory that we always had in mind. And Tim Kendall's line around this will lead to Civil War, it just -- it feels everything is boiling up more and more along those lines. It has been harder and harder to have conversations with friends that you might disagree with politically and just based on that clip from a few minutes ago, we're all operating off of different facts now. We have different facts that we're bringing to the table. How can we, as, a society possibly have a shared conversation when we are coming with a completely set of -- completely different backgrounds on an issue?</s>CHATTERLEY: Jeff, we have about one more minute to discuss this. If I had to criticize, I would say it comes down to self-help, and users ultimately switching off notifications or fact-checking.</s>ORLOWSKI: Right.</s>CHATTERLEY: What about the tech companies? What about lawmakers, doing more?</s>ORLOWSKI: Exactly. Exactly. For me, the self-help mindset is problematic just from the same perspective of climate change. To say that, oh, we're only going to solve climate change by you not driving or you not eating meat, it is missing the entire system at play. These are systemic problems and they need to be solved at the systemic level, with our -- the tech that we've created now, the only paths forward in my mind are either the tech companies changed their business model from the inside, where they can do it with their own control and power and can set up the terms of how they want to change or it's going to be forced to happen through regulation, and politicians are going to have to continue to learn more and more very quickly around what exactly is going on and how to regulate it to serve in society's interest. These things have become public utilities at this point. They have become a public square, and yet they don't have any of the regulations that we would, with any public utility. So I think there's a lot that individuals can do to sort of protect themselves. I've been suggesting that people do a reality swap, if there is the person you disagree with, look at their Facebook feed, show them your Facebook feed, swap Instagram or Twitter feeds so that you can see what facts they're being shown every day and they can see what you see every day, and you can start to have a more meaningful conversation and break down and fact check and get to the root truth of any particular issue. But those are all Band-Aid solutions. Right? That's all just like an individual, small thing to kind of protect yourself, protect your own mind and your own brain and your own family, but really this comes down to a huge systemic change needed to come from the tech companies themselves.</s>CHATTERLEY: Yes, and regulators, though, I think social media needs regulating. I actually think all forms of media need better regulation, quite frankly, in this country, too.</s>ORLOWSKI: Yes.</s>CHATTERLEY: From the former employees that you were speaking to, we can pick out Facebook just because it's so topical -- oh, now I have to go. How depressing. We will reconvene on this conversation. I say that a lot.</s>ORLOWSKI: Absolutely.</s>CHATTERLEY: Jeff, we'll talk offline.</s>ORLOWSKI: Well, thank you so much for the time.</s>CHATTERLEY: Great to have you with us. Thank you so much.</s>ORLOWSKI: Thank you so much. Bye-bye.</s>CHATTERLEY: The director there of "The Social Dilemma." Everybody needs to watch this documentary. That's it for me. I'll have to be quiet. I am going to hand you now over to my colleagues, Jim and Poppy, for coverage of the Memorial for the late Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg.</s>SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN U.S. CORRESPONDENT: ... first woman to lie in-state as well as the first Jewish person to lie in-state and she is also the second Justice to lie in-state as well. It was President William Taft who was first President before becoming Chief Justice who had that honor. We are just seeing the motorcade now as well as the hearse pulling up here to the Capitol as they move slowly along the procession here.</s>MALVEAUX: We are just seeing the motorcade now, as well as the hearse, pulling up here to the Capitol, as they move slowly along the procession here. You can see everyone standing at attention. There is the deputy sergeant of arms who will actually escort the family inside of the U.S. Capitol. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, as well as Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, will greet the motorcade and greet the family as they make their way here. They are precisely on time. We are expecting that they will get out of the motorcade. There will be a group that will be escorted outside to the back entrance and then, of course, you will see the casket as it will travel up those east steps, up to the rotunda and through to the Statutory Hall. And at 10:00 is when that Memorial Service will begin. It is a private ceremony because of the coronavirus. That has been many -- many opportunities for the public, as I've seen thousands and thousands of people gather outside the Supreme Court since Friday to pay their respects. But this is really a moment, a journey, if you will, that is so appropriate for the Justice to simply make her way from the Supreme Court to the U.S. Capitol where so many of these legislate live battles have been fought and where there is one underway for her replacement -- Jim.</s>JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Suzanne, thanks so much. Of course, we noted that her dying wish, as recounted by her family, was that she be replaced by the next President -- Poppy.</s>POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: How appropriate and how perfectly said, Suzanne, I'm just thinking as we wait for her casket to emerge, how appropriate that the woman who called herself a flaming feminist litigator, as she was for decades before she sat on the high court, will also be the first woman ever to receive the honor of lying in state at the Capitol there in Statuary Hall. A woman and a Justice and a mother and a wife who contributed so much to this country and who, remember when she was nominated in that Rose Garden announcement, President Bill Clinton called her a person of immense character. Ariane de Vogue, you have a beautiful piece this morning on CNN.com where you and Joan looked at the life that she was living just before she died, a life that she expected would go on much longer and that she wrote to a dear friend recently, "I am looking forward to brighter days when this eerie time ends."</s>ARIAN DE VOGUE, CNN SUPREME COURT REPORTER: Right. You know what's interesting, it's almost remarkable that -- how surprised her former colleagues, her former clerks, even some journalists were by her death. I mean, after all, she was 87 years old. But this tiny woman had herculean strength. You remember she worked through those five bouts of cancer. I remember when she stayed up all night, pulled an all-nighter to write a voting rights dissent. And then, this last term was very brutal. There were big cases. She knew she had cancer. She continued to work. She was the dominant voice in an abortion case. And then after the term, the emergency petitions kept coming in. Meanwhile, she was communicating with friends. And, in fact, she was writing a book with one of her former clerks. So that's what was so extraordinary about her. And it was picked up a little bit by Chief Justice John Roberts yesterday because he seemed surprised, but he said finally, in the end, Poppy, fate won out on this remarkable life.</s>HARLOW: Yes. Yes.</s>SCIUTTO: I spoke to one of her former clerks this morning who said that one thing he noted about her was that Ginsburg was every -- worked every bit as hard on the smallest cases as the biggest ones. She wanted to get everything absolutely right. What you're seeing there right there is the Military Honor Guard that will escort her casket into Statutory Hall in the Capitol. Each -- there are five guards of honor, each representing the five branched of the Armed Forces: Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, and Coast Guard. And, again, one more sign of the special honor that this is, as we noted, first woman to lie in state in history, in the long history of this country, remarkable, and the first woman to lie in state at the U.S. Capitol. Suzanne, who's up there on the Hill as we wait for the casket to leave the hearse, this is an invitation only ceremony today. The invited senators have been requested to be in their seats in Statutory Hall. Tell us why. Statuary Hall, I should say.</s>MALVEAUX: Well, one of the reasons clearly is because of coronavirus. The Capitol has been closed to the public since the virus began and they are keeping the numbers quite small. They are trying to -- it's invitation only. And what you'll see is dignitaries. You'll also see the leadership in Congress.</s>MALVEAUX: A small group. We will -- we do expect to see the Democratic nominee, the vice president -- former Vice President Joe Biden and Jill Biden, as well as his running mate, Kamala Harris, that they will be attending this private ceremony. There will be some opportunities, however, for senators and Members of Congress to go by and pay their tributes and respects to the casket later after about 10:30 or so. Groups of 40 will be going from the House and the senators as well, and that will be about opportunity. But as Poppy had mentioned, you know, the history that's being made and Speaker Pelosi, as her peer, you are going to see at the very end as the casket is leaving the Capitol, a group of women, a bipartisan group of Members of Congress, who will be giving the final farewell.</s>HARLOW: They were actually quite close friends. Speaker Pelosi remembered and said just a few days ago when the Justice told her before the public knew that she was battling cancer. So Speaker Pelosi there not only a peer, but also a close friend of the late Justice. Jeffrey Toobin, to you. The arc of her life. This is a woman, who other than the Chief Justice, argued the most cases before this court for decades before she sat on the court, who head the ACLU's Women's Rights Project. I mean, because of her, women could have credit cards. Because of her, women could sit on juries in all states. I mean so many things just in the early '70s women didn't have but changed because of her.</s>JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: You know, she is the only member of the Supreme Court since Thurgood Marshall who would have been a major figure in American history, even if she had never served on the Supreme Court at all. Put aside the 27 years on the Supreme Court. That's how significant her contribution was. You know, I'm just -- I was sitting -- you know, I'm staring at the same picture that we all are and looking at the magnitude and the honor and thinking about where she came from.</s>HARLOW: Yes.</s>TOOBIN: You know, she was born in 1933 at the peak of the Depression. When she was a little girl, her even younger sister died of leukemia. When she was 14, her mother died, you know? A transformative, horrific event that, you know, after a long bout with cancer. And, you know, her father tried to -- you know, raised the family by himself. He was a mostly unsuccessful furrier in New York City. I mean the distance she came from those really difficult, early days to a farewell like this is really one of the great American stories.</s>SCIUTTO: Yes.</s>TOOBIN: And it's just -- it's just the arc of her life is epic in its scale and importance.</s>HARLOW: Yes.</s>SCIUTTO: Yes, you go to her high school in Brooklyn, James Maddison High School, you look at the alums from there. Bernie Sanders.</s>TOOBIN: Chuck Schumer.</s>SCIUTTO: Chuck Schumer. Norm Coleman. Chris Rock. I mean it's a cross section of America through the years.</s>HARLOW: There you go.</s>SCIUTTO: Again, there's the Honor Guard waiting to escort the casket of the late Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg. Joan Biskupic, you've covered the court. You've covered Ginsburg. I wonder if you could tell us the change that the court is about to experience as a result of her passing, and we should note the President has said, tomorrow, he is going to announce his nominee to replace her. And the Senate has said they will vote on that nominee.</s>JOAN BISKUPIC, CNN SUPREME COURT ANALYST: We really can't overstate the transformation that's about to happen. We've already had a very conservative court, a five-four conservative court. It's about to go six- three conservative. And the equality rights that Ruth Bader Ginsburg fought for are just one of many, many types of rights and liberties that are now in the balance in a much more serious way. And she, you know, when she started, Jim, she was a much more measured jurist. She was -- she herself was more of an incrementalist from her time on a lower court. But through the years on the Supreme Court, as it became more conservative in the majority, she moved to the left and certainly had inspired the total of four Justices who are still liberals on the court and now there will only be three. And the contrast between a Donald Trump successor to Ruth Bader Ginsburg really takes us back to, you know, at minimum when Clarence Thomas succeeded another Civil Rights icon, Thurgood Marshall.</s>HARLOW: Yes.</s>BISKUPIC: So, so much ahead from immediately with the election to, you know, gun rights, Civil Rights, everything, Jim. Everything.</s>SCIUTTO: Yes. Poppy, you know, yesterday I got in a conversation with someone who studied her cases as a lawyer in law school waiting in line to view the casket and he made the point, which I had heard before is, part of her brilliance in arguing these equal rights cases early on was that she took on cases where men were impacted negatively by the law to argue for equal treatment under the law, knowing at the time she would most likely be facing only male judges, right? And that was her path to argue some of the cases early on, which is, you know, just one of those signs of her brilliance.</s>HARLOW: You're so right, Jim. I'm glad you brought that up. And I love the picture you sent me yesterday while you were waiting in line. I just think it spoke -- it spoke a thousand words to see how long the line was for people to pay their respects and just to have a glimpse of her casket. And, Jeffrey Toobin, to you. I mean it was brilliant. You and I together interviewed Stephen Wiesenfeld, a case she took to the high court and argued before, guess what, nine male Justices. She knew to convince the men that things were unequal for women, she might need to use a man to make the case.</s>TOOBIN: I mean, the Wiesenfeld case is such an interesting and tragic story that really I think was her favorite case that she ever argued because the facts were so resonant. If I can just summarize it very quickly --</s>HARLOW: Yes.</s>TOOBIN: Stephen Wiesenfeld was married and his wife died in childbirth. A terrible, terrible, sad story. He -- under the prevailing tax law at the time, as a widower he received less benefits than a widow would have received. And that was on the assumption that men make more money than women. But it was an explicit discrimination in the law. She took that case to the Supreme Court and she won. The Supreme Court said that there was no basis in the law to distinguish between men and women and they have to be treated equally. That principle was one that was used in several different cases where she and other feminist lawyers brought cases that -- where men were discriminated against. Another one of those famous cases involved beer, I believe it was in Oklahoma --</s>HARLOW: Yes.</s>TOOBIN: Where there was a lower drinking age for women than there was for men --</s>HARLOW: That's right.</s>TOOBIN: For 3.2 beer, for low alcohol beer. That case, the court decided that that was unlawful discrimination. And there are two points to make about this. One is that these victories were, of course, later used to change laws that discriminated against women. But the other point -- and this is something Ruth Ginsburg often stressed -- was that she felt that when laws against discrimination against women were invalidated, were ended, it helped men as well as women. That equality was a value that wasn't just something women benefited from, it benefited everyone.</s>HARLOW: Yes.</s>TOOBIN: And she always talked about how women's rights were actually human rights in a phrase that came to be used later by Hillary Clinton.</s>SCIUTTO: Yes.</s>TOOBIN: And I think history has proved her right about that.</s>SCIUTTO: Well, a message that still is so meaningful today in the midst of the racial crisis in this country. Suzanne Malveaux, of course, Ruth Bader Ginsburg was a jurist. She was also a human being. A wife, a mother with loves. Tell us about her loves outside the law.</s>MALVEAUX: Well, Jim, one of the most interesting stories and passionate stories that she loves to tell, we will actually hear from Denise Graves. She is the soprano opera singer. It was -- it really is her love of opera and of music. And she tells the story of -- it was back in 1944, 1945, she was just an 11-year-old girl and she happened to meet a man by the name of Dean Dixon. And he actually was a train conductor. He was an African American man. He was a train conductor. But he was also a musician and he was a musical conductor. But at the time he couldn't find a job. Could not get a job in the United States at that time. So he went from city to city and specifically New York City, where he played these concerts, little, small concerts for children. And Ruth Bader Ginsburg was one of those children. And she heard his story. She learned about his story. And she became keenly aware, even as a child, of the racial disparities and the inequality.</s>MALVEAUX: And it really is an interesting intersection, if you will, of the two loves, the fact that she was very much aware of racial inequality and that it was, in fact, this African-American man who introduced her to music and to the love of opera, which, of course, she carried well into her adulthood.</s>HARLOW: We are just seeing some of these first images inside there as they await -- inside the Capitol as they await the casket of the late justice. We know that the former Vice President and former Second Lady, Joe and Jill Biden, have arrived. You'll see them in moments. Joan Biskupic, I'm reminded of something she said -- there you see them right there as they're waiting -- I'm reminded of something she said. This was a while ago, 2002, at Brown University. Quote, "Do your part to help move society to the place you would like it to be for the health and well- being of generations following your own." She did that, as Jeffrey just explained, for women and for men on the equality front. And that is why, as you said, she has been compared so often to the late Justice Thurgood Marshall. But she didn't like that comparison. Tell us why.</s>BISKUPIC: Well, you know, it's interesting, she -- she had a certain personal wisdom about her. And she felt that all of us -- all of the Justices, all of the litigators came to the position with their own distinct empathies. And she really broke ground that was different than her predecessors. And, Poppy, earlier, when you were referring to that scene in the Rose Garden and what President Clinton said of her --</s>HARLOW: Yes.</s>BISKUPIC: I was reminded of what she then said in return that pulls together many of the strands we've been talking about here. She talked about her late mother who died right before her high school graduation and made it impossible for her to go and pick up all the honors she had won academically. And she said on national television that day in June of 2000 -- in 1993, "I just pray that I can be the Justice that my mother could have been if she had lived at a time when women were allowed to aspire and achieve and at a time when daughters were as cherished as sons."</s>SCIUTTO: Yes.</s>BISKUPIC: So, you know, she -- all of these things that you're bring up here --</s>SCIUTTO: Joan --</s>BISKUPIC: Oh, pardon me, Jim?</s>SCIUTTO: Just as you mentioned daughters and sons --</s>BISKUPIC: Yes.</s>SCIUTTO: At the top of the steps now greeting her casket.</s>BISKUPIC: Right.</s>SCIUTTO: Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer, but also members of her family. Her daughter Jane, who is a Law Professor at Colombia, following in the family business, if you want to call it that. Her son James as well. Let's listen in as we watch this moment.</s>SCIUTTO: So what's happening now is the casket being escorted there into Statuary Hall in the Capitol. Sergeant at Arms that will escort along with the Military Honor Guard. Already seated there, senators invited, also escorting the casket, we should note, the late Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg's family, her daughters - - her daughter Jane, her son James. She also has two grandchildren, Clara and Paul. One note, when she arrives in Statuary Hall there on that black platform, it's known at the Lincoln Catafalque. It was built for President Lincoln. And since then it's been something of the great unifier because Republicans, Democrats, nine Supreme Court Justices have lain on that same platform. Presidents, JFK, Eisenhower, LBJ, Reagan, Ford, Bush, all lain on that same spot. But what's unique about this, this is the first woman in our country's long history to lie in state in the U.S. Capitol building. Something reserved for Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg.</s>HARLOW: Jeffrey Toobin, one of the things that people may not know about her, who didn't have a chance to spend time with her, and you covered her just so closely, is that she really was also quite humble, didn't have the loudest voice, didn't speak the most words, but every word she spoke, people listened to intently, right? A precise jurist.</s>TOOBIN: She was a precise jurist and a precise person.</s>HARLOW: Yes.</s>TOOBIN: And, you know, one of the -- one of the unnerving things about talking to Justice Ginsburg is that she was a person uniquely comfortable with silence.</s>HARLOW: Yes.</s>TOOBIN: That when -- when you --</s>HARLOW: Epic silence, Jeffrey. Epic silence.</s>TOOBIN: Yes. And you would talk to law clerks and particularly people coming in for interviews with her to become law clerks, and they would be sitting, talking to her, and, obviously, they were nervous in such circumstances.</s>TOOBIN: And Justice Ginsburg was comfortable with pauses in conversation. But many of us are not comfortable with those sorts of pauses. So, particularly with these nervous recent law school graduates, they would often describe starting to babble like idiots because they were so anxious to fill the silence. But Justice Ginsburg didn't mind silence in conversation.</s>HARLOW: Right.</s>TOOBIN: Another thing, though, about her personality that I think is worth pointing out, she had one of the great marriages that I think that any one of us, who knew them, you know, were aware of. Marty Ginsburg was a lawyer himself. They were, of course, law school classmates at Harvard and Columbia, and he was a very distinguished tax lawyer and tax professor. But he was a very outgoing person. He was very friendly. He was the life of the party. He was a famously great chef. Ruth Ginsburg was sort of in the background when they were together. When Marty died in 2010, that was kind -- I mean God knows it was a terrible thing for Ruth to lose her husband, but it also was a kind of social blossoming for her. And one reason why, you know, the cult of RBG, and notorious RBG, and all of the celebrity she achieved late in life, that was because she was much more of a public figure after 2010. But I will be quiet and let us see the proceedings.</s>HARLOW: Okay. So you have her family members have come in. You saw Speaker Pelosi, Minority Leader of the Senate Chuck Schumer. And now they will bring in the casket of late Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg. Again, let's just listen to this moment in history.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mark time. Bearers, halt.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Center face. Side step. March. END