Top U.S. Commander in Afghanistan to Review Detention Practices
AARON BROWN, HOST: Good evening, again, everyone. In New York today it was in an odd sort of way 9/11 all over again. At least it must have seemed that way to those who attended the 9/11 Commission hearings in the city's response to that awful day. If both the Democrats and the Republicans on the Commission have avoided wholesale finger pointing on whether attack could have been prevented, there seemed little restraint today, at least from one commissioner and the staff on how the city responded. The words of John Lehman will ring through the city's police and fire departments for a long, long time. The command and control and communications of the city's public services were a scandal, he said. Not worthy of the Boy Scouts. In this city we have mourned for more than two years now the deaths of 343 firefighters and another two dozen city police officers. And while our sorrow will never really end, the Commission today made clear that facts and not emotions should guide the work, even if the facts are uncomfortable and they could hardly have been more uncomfortable than they were today. That story is part of the program tonight. But "The Whip" begins, as it has for a while it seems, with Iraq again and again tonight the prison abuse story dominates. The first court-martial takes place tomorrow. Our senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre with the watch tonight. Jamie, a headline.</s>JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, as top U.S commanders in Iraq prepare to answer tough questions about prisoner abuse from members of Congress, the top U.S. commander in Afghanistan is about to order a thorough review of how prisoners are treated there. Aaron.</s>BROWN: Jamie, thank you. Next to Congress where lawmakers have started getting tougher on the handling of the war. Joe Johns covers the Hill. He's there for us tonight. Joe, a headline.</s>JOE JOHNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, it may be impossible to tell how long U.S. forces will have to stay in Iraq after the transition. But that kind of uncertainty is creating tension here on Capitol Hill. Aaron?</s>BROWN: Joe, thank you. On to the 9/11 Commission and the finger-pointing, as we said. CNN's Deborah Feyerick covered that today. Deb, the headline from you.</s>DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, it was such a painful day for so many families as they listened to testimony about what succeeded and what failed. Aaron.</s>BROWN: Thank you. And finally to Gaza and the war of snipers and smugglers and guerrillas and bulldozers. Matthew Chance is on the video phone. Matt, a headline.</s>MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, at least 20 people are killed and dozens of Palestinian houses are razed to the ground as Israel enters a Palestinian refugee camp in the southern Gaza Strip. It is the biggest operation against Palestinian militants in years and it is drawing harsh international criticism.</s>BROWN: Matthew, thank you. We'll get back to you and rest shortly. Also coming up on this Tuesday night, the politics of petroleum and crude oil and gasoline and prices. Might this be a voting issue in the fall for the President and for Senator Kerry? Plus helping needy schools, one classroom at a time. A good news story, a charity that lets donors direct their dollars. You'll like this. And also "the Big Unit" and a very big game. Well, now you know what we're talking about, the game is over. The story will ring for a long time. And the rooster made its way back home safe and sound from Topeka. He'll stop by later with your morning papers. All that and more in the hour ahead. We begin tonight with the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal again. The first court-martial stemming from the mess begins tomorrow in Iraq. Specialist Jeremy Sivits is expected to plead guilty at the trial which will set the stage for other trials where Sivits will be an important witness. As the legal wheels begin to turn, the investigative net is widening. Today Defense Secretary Rumsfeld was back before congress this time briefing a House committee behind closed doors. This as his number two at the Pentagon, Paul Wolfowitz, was grilled in the Senate and new investigations were announced. A couple of reports tonight. We begin with CNN's Jamie McIntyre.</s>MCINTYRE (voice-over): Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld is described as frustrated at the Iraqi prison scandal and the resulting congressional hearings are distracting him from the war according to one of several senators who had breakfast with him. Sources say Rumsfeld has been forced to delegate much of his daily routine to his deputy, Paul Wolfowitz who has also spent hours testifying before Congress. Wolfowitz again denied there was any Pentagon policy encouraging mistreatment of detainees.</s>PAUL WOLFOWITZ, U.S. DEPUTY DEFENSE SECRETARY: We are trying to find out what if any possible truth could have led to that story. I'm aware of nothing that would substantiate that.</s>MCINTYRE: Senator Armed Services Committee Chairman John Warner has called the two top commanders for Iraq, General John Abizaid and Lieutenant General Ricardo Sanchez along with Major General Geoffrey Miller who is now in charge of the Abu Ghraib prison to answer questions Wednesday. For some fellow Republicans, the oversight is going overboard.</s>REP DUNCAN HUNTER, (R) CALIFORNIA: I said it is time to refocus on winning the war and not--and not pull our battlefield leadership out of the field.</s>MCINTYRE: More hearings are being scheduled for the various generals heading a half dozen separate investigations. Including Major General George Fay who is looking at whether the abuse was directed by military or civilian interrogators. Colonel Thomas Pappas, the officer in charge of interrogations has reportedly told a senior army investigator military police were sometimes told to strip and shackle prisoners. "The New York Times" says it has obtained a sworn statement in which Pappas says, "...Instructions given to the MPs such as shackling, making detainees strip down or other measures used on detainees before interrogations are not typically made unless there is some good reason." (on camera): Meanwhile the number of probes continues to grow. Pentagon sources say Commanding General Lieutenant General David Barno will announce Wednesday a top to bottom review of the detainee operations in Afghanistan. Jamie McIntyre, CNN, the Pentagon.</s>BROWN: For the Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, the Senate Foreign Relations Committee was not what you would call a very friendly audience. Today its members had repeatedly accused the Pentagon of planning inadequately for the post war mission in Iraq. Since Mr. Wolfowitz is widely regarded as the intellectual architect for the war, he now sits squarely in the hot seat. The questions today were many and tough. What happens, the senators asked after 9 the handover on June 30? Who will do what? How much will it cost? When will U.S. troops come home? From the Hill tonight, here's CNN's Joe Johns.</s>JOHNS (voice-over): With the limited turnover of power in Iraq just weeks away, the Pentagon is refusing to predict when U.S. forces will be able to leave the country.</s>WOLFOWITZ: The course of war is simply not something one can determine. We can say, I think, with reasonable confidence that we have a plan under way to train and equip and organize very substantial Iraqi security forces by the end of this year.</s>JOHNS: But recently some in Congress have seen themselves as too passive on Iraq. And today members of both parties were looking for more certainty.</s>SEN. GEORGE VOINOVICH (R) OHIO: People ask me what is going to happen at--come July 1. I just tell them, it will be a jump ball. We're not really sure what's going to happen.</s>JOHNS: The administration insisted the transition is on track, but still faced a barrage of questions, intense and specific, on everything Iraq-related including the United Nations.</s>SEN. CHUCK HAGEL, (R) NEBRASKA: I would hope that there is serious work being done now on working with our allies on getting a new U.N. resolution. You can assure the committee that is being done?</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I assure the committee, I assure you personally it is being done.</s>JOHNS: Questions about where the reconstruction funding is going.</s>SEN. RICHARD LUGAR, (R) INDIANA: It is it is perplexing that 12 percent of the money has been obligated.</s>JOHNS: And what about the role of private contractors in Iraq when the U.S. pulls back?</s>WOLFOWITZ: I assume they'll be under the authority of the interim government.</s>JOHNS: The issue of what to do with Iraqi prisoners also came up.</s>HAGEL: How will prisoners, detainees be handled after the transition of government in Iraq?</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is my understanding as rapidly as possible to put those into the hands of Iraqis.</s>HAGEL: As rapidly as possible. Do we have any idea what that means?</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't have that, sir.</s>HAGEL: Does anybody?</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't.</s>JOHNS: A potential bright spot, the administration said Iraqi oil could generate $50 billion to $100 billion to finance the reconstruction but admitted there is no way to tell what the final cost will be -- Aaron.</s>BROWN: Beyond asking a lot of questions, and they are important questions and the answers are needed, what is Congress doing with all of this? How does it end up, if it ends up in legislation?</s>JOHNS: Well, right now the question is oversight, obviously. They're doing a lot of oversight trying to get as many details as possible and then figure out where to go from there, Aaron. It is very hard to say right now how this would all work out in legislation. Certainly they're working right now on the Armed Services Authorization Bill. And that will continue through the week.</s>BROWN: And that includes the what, $25 billion additional?</s>JOHNS: Right. Over on the Senate side they have $25 billion that they want to put in there--a contingency plan for the administration. Of course, they are planning to try to put some controls on that so that the administration won't have as much flexibility as it had in the past, Aaron.</s>BROWN: Joe, thank you. Joe Johns on Capitol Hill tonight. In other news, if you needed proof that the wounds of 9/11 are still fresh in this city, we can end your doubt tonight. All you had to do was watch some of today's 9/11 hearings which, as we said earlier, focused on the city's response to the attack. On a day when more than 300 firefighters were lost, dozens of city police and Port Authority police as well, the idea that mistakes were made was hard to listen to, which is not to say charges were untrue. That is another matter all together. In New York, the 9/11 Commission began the hearings. Here is CNN's Deborah Feyerick.</s>FEYERICK (voice-over): They held each other and wiped away tears. Families watching as those they loved died all over again.</s>KRISTIN BREITWEISER, WIFE OF 9/11 VICTIM: My husband is never coming home. I'm well aware of that. I'm also well aware of the fact 19 hijackers killed him. But more lives could have been saved.</s>FEYERICK: City officials who led the rescue effort that day say firefighters and police were as prepared as they could have been in the face of such an unforeseeable tragedy.</s>BERNARD KERIK, FORMER NYPD COMMISSIONER: The character, professionalism and bravery of New York's finest was never more evident. As debris showered down to the ground, as fellow human beings jumped to their death, from 100 stories above, there was no retreat and no hesitation.</s>FEYERICK: The most dramatic moment during the hearings, 9/11 Commissioner John Lehman criticized the fire and police departments, accusing them of poor communication with no one person calling all the shots.</s>JOHN LEHMAN, 9/11 COMMISSIONER: I think that the command and control and communications of this city's public service is a scandal. It is not worthy of the Boy Scouts, let alone this great city.</s>FEYERICK: The fire commissioner, who lost 343 firefighters on 9/11 struck back. Tom Von Essen saying rescue efforts were handled by some of the most seasoned chiefs of the nation.</s>THOMAS VON ESSEN, FORMER FDNY COMMISSIONER: You make it seem like everything is wrong about September 11 and the way we functioned. I think it is outrageous you make a statement like that.</s>FEYERICK: 2,800 people died in the World Trade Center Towers. A study by the city says 25,000 made it to safety. Since the attack, radios have been upgraded, with select commanders from the fire and police departments sharing a similar frequency. Police receive more intelligence and training exercises reflect a wider spectrum of possible threats. Problems still remain, among them the emergency 911 hotline, and managing information during catastrophes. Several 9/11 commissioners made clear that they believe New York City remains a very big target. That's a thought that is on the mind of New York City officials as they work to either prevent it or save lives if it should happen -- Aaron.</s>BROWN: Briefly, where do the hearings, the New York chapter of the hearings go?</s>FEYERICK: Tomorrow there's a second day of hearings. We'll hear from former mayor Rudy Giuliani, also Homeland Secretary Tom Ridge. Interestingly, Tom Kean asked the police commissioner that he hadn't even mentioned the Department of Homeland Security saying do you need it?</s>BROWN: Well, we'll ask that question here too. Thank you, Deborah. Deborah Feyerick tonight. One of the officials answering questions at today's hearing was New York's current police commissioner Ray Kelly. Commissioner Kelly was appointed to the job for a second time after the 9/11 attacks, fixing the problems exposed by 9/11 have fallen in large part on him. We are always pleased to see him. We are so tonight. Nice to see you, sir.</s>COMM. RAY KELLY, NY POLICE COMMISSIONER: Good to be with you, Aaron. BROWN The criticism was uncomfortably harsh. You weren't in the job at the time. Perhaps you have a little more freedom to respond. Was it unfair?</s>KELLY: Well, hindsight is 20/20. It was a horrific event. I don't think reasonably it could have been predicted. Certainly by local agencies, certainly by the police and fire departments. I think a great job was done.</s>BROWN: Maybe that's in a sense one of the questions that need to be asked. Can any system, no matter how well-devised, survive, function properly under a circumstance like the city endured on that day?</s>KELLY: Yeah. There are some events that are so large, so cataclysmic that a system can't survive. Many of the systems in the towers obviously failed to function immediately when the planes struck. So it was such-of such huge dimensions that I think you need to keep that in perspective when you look at the emergency response, which I think was terrific.</s>BROWN: Certainly no one ever questions the heroism of individual officers at every level of the command: police, fire, all of them. But also we know that there were communications problems. So they're fixed.</s>KELLY: Yeah. I believe they are. Most of the communication problems existed in the fire department quite frankly which had been agreed to by the previous and current commissioners. A lot of things have been done. The radios have been changed. They have now mobile boosters that they take with them. We have an interoperatability capability where we can talk to each other, police can talk to fire. We have it on a tactical basis and on a command basis.</s>BROWN: If there were a 9/11 today, who would be in charge?</s>KELLY: Well, everybody wants to have one person in charge. And in New York City we have the mayor in charge. And if you look at other systems the National Incident Management System, it is really configured for forest fires where you have multi jurisdictions arriving on the scene. Here we have almost 50,000 emergency workers right here in New York City. So we have put in place, the mayor has directed with our OEM Commissioner a unified command system where we have incident commanders from the major departments, but you also have those leaders meeting in a unified command construct where they are consulting and agreeing on major decisions. It makes sense for this jurisdiction.</s>BROWN: Just a couple move things. I'm always nervous about asking hindsight sorts of questions. But let me ask a forward-looking one. If there were, let's say for example, a chemical attack in the city or a dirty bomb attack in the city, how would we find out--not we in the media would find out--how would residents in the City find out?</s>KELLY: Probably through the media to a certain extent.</s>BROWN: Is there a system to call us?</s>KELLY: Well, obviously we would use the medium where you can go on television and put information out. That's assuming it is not a major explosion or something.</s>BROWN: Say it was the middle of the night.</s>KELLY: Yeah. One of the things that we're looking at and, again, this is an incremental process is the possibility of a reverse 911 system. We have a new computer aided dispatch system coming online probably within a year's time. But a reverse 911 system reaches out. You can make thousands of calls out to the citizens. Something that we're considering. But to answer your question, the immediate situation, we would use the media as an information out. We might use in a particular area police cars with loudspeakers to go through an area.</s>BROWN: Do you believe that if there were another 9/11 tomorrow that there would be fewer deaths in the city because of what has happened since?</s>KELLY: Yes. Again, no two events are ever going to be alike. But we have done an awful lot since 9/11. It is again an incremental process that will probably never be totally completed. But we're building on things that were done two years ago, a year ago. We'll be better next year at protecting the City.</s>BROWN: We can see it. Thanks.</s>KELLY: Good to see you, Aaron.</s>BROWN: Commissioner Ray Kelly, runs the police department here. Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, increasing violence in the Mideast. Israel launches its biggest incursion in years, this time in Gaza, leaving many Palestinians without homes and nowhere to go. Plus, interrogation by torture. Is it ever okay to go that far? Can the end justify the means? From New York this is NEWSNIGHT.