Turkish And Kurdish Forces Fire Upon Each Other; Turkey Escalates Attacks On U.S.-Allied Kurdish Fighters
HOLMES: U.S. officials say the military has taken custody of two high- profile ISIS fighters. They gained attention as part of a British cell of ISIS members known as the Beatles. Sources telling CNN there are plans to bring the two members to the U.S. for prosecution, but they are just two of the ISIS fighters being held in prisons in northern Syria, the same area where Turkey is now launching that offensive. There are an estimated 11,000 ISIS fighters in custody. U.S. officials, concerned that many of those terrorists could escape as this offensive continues. Joining us now is our CNN Military Analyst, retired Lieutenant General Mark Hertling. Always a pleasure to see you, sir. You know, we're hearing that the Turks might want to have a more extended campaign than first thought. I'm curious how surprised you were when the president made what appears to have been a shock (ph), unilateral decision to leave the Kurds exposed like this.</s>MARK HERTLING, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yes. I was very shocked, Michael. Probably, like many of my military colleagues, both active and retired. You know, I'd have to bring up the name of General Joe Votel, who was commander of CENTCOM and actually was given the mission, several years ago, to stand up the security forces along with his colleague, General Tony Thomas, who was the Special Operations Command commander. Both of those individuals are retired, they retired over the last several months. But between them and Ambassador Brett McGurk, I personally believe they did a phenomenal job in putting together a force that would fight ISIS. And recalling back a few years ago, there were a lot of naysayers that said that that could never be done. It was done and it was very successful. So getting back to your question, how shocked was I? Very shocked because this had gone well for several years. They had -- they had, in fact, defeated not destroyed ISIS, but they had defeated a good portion of the caliphate and put a real dent in their operational plans. But with the number of detainees from ISIS that were in prison, I'm very concerned that many of them will be freed. That there will be a generation of new fighters to link with the hundreds of millions of dollars in cash that they already have to support the organization and we could certainly see an ISIS 2.0 very shortly.</s>HOLMES: Yes. As a result of this, which is extraordinary to contemplate, not the mention the president's rationale that the Kurds didn't help in Normandy for heaven's sake. I wanted you to speak to the erosion of American global influence that this will bring. But also trust when it comes to allies. I mean, you and I both worked in the field with Kurdish fighters. And let's not forget the end of the Persian Gulf War. The United States called for a rebellion, then allowed Saddam Hussein to crush the insurgence.</s>HERTLING: Right.</s>HOLMES: And here we are, the U.S. doing it again in a way.</s>HERTLING: Yes, and that's a long history and it's very unfortunate. There have been many books and papers written about that. And I was a part of the first Persian Gulf War in 1991 when that occurred. And over the next several years, we had to provide the safe zone in Northern and Southern Iraq to prevent attacks against the Shia marshes in the south and Kurdish enclaves in the north. The Kurds have suffered a lot. They have had many instances, not only with the Iraqi government, but now in the Syrian government and the Turkish government. Now, the Turkish government does have a reason for concern about their internal security. There have been terrorist Kurdish organizations that had been attacking Turkey, but these fighters were not truthfully a part of that over the last several years. They have been very good partners in the fight against ISIS. And I think what you're seeing is both sides going at each other. And in the past, the United States forces in the area have been able to provide the buffer and the deterrence for one attacking the other in many cases. And unfortunately, now you're going to see all hell break loose, truthfully, in terms of that security zone that Turkey is invading right now.</s>HOLMES: That's an important point to make. The PKK inside Turkey's border versus the YPG in Syria. You've got Peshmerga fighters, of course, in northern Iraq as well. The other thing here is that, you know, Russia and Iran benefit enormously from this, too. So why would the U.S. do something that benefits adversaries like Iran and Russia and indeed enemies like ISIS? What's in it for the U.S. to do this?</s>HERTLING: I don't know truthfully other than adhere into a campaign promise perhaps. But it certainly isn't in the realm of global or national security in this case. There may be a short-term solution related to this of getting forces, as the president said, getting forces out of wars that we didn't want to be in. But truthfully, Michael, we both know why those wars have continued. It is a security environment against a continuing radical Islamist threat and it does continue on. And we're going to see recurrence of this if you just kind of throw up your hands and say we're leaving. And you can't just delegate it to someone else's country's -- some other area, because it does tend to proceed all over the globe. We're going to see -- you know, going back to your question though, I think a lot of people are concluding that there didn't seem to be a whole lot of strategic thought behind this. There certainly wasn't the coordination with allies, especially those in NATO and the European Union in terms of what might happen next. And Turkey seems to be going this alone and being given, you know, hands off as they continue these attacks. Specifically on the Russian front though, I think you're going the see Russia soon join with the Syrian forces in the southern part of this security zone to back up what's coming in from the north and that is the Turkish forces. So you're going to see a NATO ally working with a NATO foe, that is Russia, that's been expanding throughout Europe, and in an area that only provides good things for Russia and good things for Syria, and perhaps, denigrates the security for the rest of both the continent and the Middle East.</s>HOLMES: And there's another player, too, that I want to get to in just a moment. But first, I should say that the U.S. ambassador to the U.N. did come out and say that the president has made abundantly clear the U.S. has not in any way endorsed the decision of the government of Turkey to mount this operation. However, I mean he knew what would happen if the U.S. pulled out on the Turks are saying that the president was well aware of their plans. I wanted to ask you this. So it was a tiny U.S. presence in Northern Syria. It did, however, a lot of good. It was in many ways, a geographical block to Tehran. This is something that has concerned Israel for a long time. And this move by the U.S. president, in some ways, gives Iran almost a clear run on the ground of friendly territory from its borders into Lebanon, its allies there, Hezbollah. Israel is not going to be happy about this.</s>HERTLING: No, they certainly aren't. And again, you're exactly right. And that's what many military commanders of my generation have learned over the last several years that it's critically important to build -- it's a term we use, building partner capacity. Let other people fight the wars on their turf with assistance from the United States military and from coalition militaries. We have done that successfully after failing miserably by sending an all-in force into both Iraq and Afghanistan. When you start building the capacity of other nations that want to get rid of some of the evil within their boundaries, it works very well. My last several years in the military, Michael, was almost exclusively geared toward, how do we build better partners, how do we build better alliances, first of all, because we can't -- we can no longer fight alone to instill freedom of movement, freedom of maneuver, Democratic priorities, whatever you want to call it. You always have to fight with an alliance. So we were building alliances all over the world to help us proclaim these Democratic virtues and values. Now, I think unfortunately, as a result of this campaign and some of the conversations going back and forth, we're going to see as turning our back on a very valuable partner, the Kurds in Northern Iraq and Northern Syria and other people are going to take note of this and it's going to harm, I think, the United States coordination with other countries for a very long time.</s>HOLMES: Yes. Be that in parts of Asia or Africa or elsewhere, who's going to trust the U.S. Lieutenant General Mark Hertling, appreciate it. Thanks for taking the time.</s>HERTLING: Thank you, Michael.</s>HOLMES: Well, Donald Trump's decision to order those U.S. troops to the sidelines ahead of Turkey's offensive did something rare in Washington, uniting many Republicans and Democrats in fierce opposition to the move and the president threw fuel on the fire by saying this.</s>DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Now, the Kurds are fighting for their land. Just so you understand, they're fighting for their land. And as somebody wrote in a very, very powerful article today, they didn't help us in the Second World War, they didn't help us with Normandy as an example.</s>HOLMES: The Kurds actually did fight in the Second World War on the side of the allies in Iraq and played a crucial role in that. But this not the first time the Kurds have been abandoned by the U.S. Arwa Damon with that.</s>ARWA DAMON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): History has often been unkind to the Kurds, a cycle of repeated betrayals. When the U.S.-led coalition expelled Saddam Hussein's forces from Kuwait in 1991, then-President H.W. Bush encouraged the Iraqi people to oust the dictator altogether.</s>GEORGE H.W. BUSH, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There's another way for the bloodshed to stop, and that is for the Iraqi military and the Iraqi people to take matters into their own hands, to force Saddam Hussein, the dictator, to step aside.</s>DAMON: In response, Iraq's Kurds rose up against Saddam, but when his elite forces advanced north, the Kurds got no help. Millions fled to the mountains, and many others were slaughtered trying to resist. During the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq in 2003, the Kurds were again enthusiastic allies, assisting American and British forces in their drive to Baghdad. When ISIS swept through Iraq, Kurdish resistance was crucial in keeping the militants at bay. In Syria, the U.S. turned to the Kurds there, the YPG, as key allies, the main ground force that led the liberation of Raqqah, ISIS's headquarters. But in both Iraq and Syria, the Kurds have been allies of convenience, deserted when no longer needed in the geopolitical chessboard. Last year, the U.S. stood by while the Iraqi military drove the Kurds back from territory they held during the fight against</s>ISIS. MASOUD BARZANI, FORMER PRESIDENT OF IRAQI KURDISTAN (through translator): We thought that the people who were verbally telling us they were our friends and would support us, that they would have supported us, or if not, stay silent.</s>DAMON: Now, it's Syria's Kurds that face attack by Turkish forces as U.S. troops pull back. Turkey sees the Kurds as terrorists, allied to the insurgents in its own Kurdish areas. The modest U.S. presence has deterred a Turkish incursion and held the Syrian regime at bay. But President Trump has repeatedly threatened to pull U.S. forces out of Syria.</s>TRUMP: Let the other people take care of it now. Very soon, very soon, we're coming out.</s>DAMON: Again, in December last year, he announced U.S. forces were withdrawing, tweeting --</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "We have defeated ISIS in Syria, my only reason for being there during the Trump presidency."</s>DAMON: On both occasions, advisers persuaded the president to change course. But now, he has given Turkey the green light to cross the border, in a move that stunned even his closest allies at home.</s>SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): If he follows through with this, it'd be the biggest mistake of his presidency.</s>DAMON: The Kurds themselves are separating the president from the people. The spokesman of the Syrian Democratic Forces, Mustafa Bali, tweeting --</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "Despite the president's decision to pave the way for Turkish invasion, American people are true friends of the</s>SDF." DAMON: The Kurds have made it clear they'll divert forces currently guarding ISIS prisoners to the front lines, with possibly dangerous consequences. Unsure of what their ally intends, they will, as they have done so often, fight for their very existence. Arwa Damon, CNN, Istanbul.</s>HOLMES: Well, Ukraine's president says there was no blackmail at all in a phone call he had with the U.S. President Donald Trump in July. That helped flacked the impeachment inquiry, of course. Volodymyr Zelensky says the U.S. didn't supply any information or an election interference or corruption allegations regarding a natural gas company, Burisma. CNN Sam Kiley was at that news conference in Kiev earlier today.</s>SAM KILEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Have you had any details? Have the U.S. -- has Mr. Trump --</s>VOLODYMYR ZELENSKY, PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE: No, USA didn't give me -- USA gave me nothing. Gave me nothing any details on Burisma and any detail -- I didn't get any details about involved to your elections, their previous elections.</s>HOLMES: Now, CNN is learning that a Trump political appointee was involved in freezing aid to Ukraine despite concern from career officials. CNN's Sara Murray joins us now with the latest of all of this. You've been reporting this on cnn.com. How concerning was it to career budget official that a political appointee was signing these documents?</s>SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the biggest concern for career budget officials was the fact that this freeze was happening at all. I mean, sources are telling us that they were afraid to be the ones who put their names on this decision to free the aid because they were worried they might be running a following of the law by blocking this money from going out, after Congress had already appropriated it. So then this Trump political appointees stepped in and signed the documents and congressional investigators who are leading this impeachment inquiry had taken notice of that saying, you know, this raises red flags, this is not how things are usually done.</s>HOLMES: OK. Now, when we talk about where the impeachment inquiry is going, I think it's interesting to listen to the Republican strategy. Particularly some fierce opponents of what's happening now, how they were a few years ago in different times. Let's play that.</s>MIKE POMPEO, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: The president didn't turnover all the documents in response to a congressional subpoena, and that's just unacceptable. We need to make sure that this administration doesn't cover up, doesn't deny, and doesn't withhold. It's deeply part of the American tradition and our constitution that the Congress perform this oversight.</s>GRAHAM: Article Three of impeachment against Richard Nixon, the article was based on the idea that Richard Nixon, as president, failed to comply with subpoenas of Congress. The day Richard Nixon failed to answer that subpoena is the day that he was subject to impeachment because he took the power from Congress.</s>MIKE PENCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This business of high crimes and misdemeanors goes to the question of whether or not the person serving as president of the United States put their own interest, their personal interest, ahead of public service.</s>TREY GOWDY, FORMER CONGRESSMAN OF SOUTH CAROLINA: The notion that you can withhold information and documents from Congress, no matter whether you're the party in power or not in power, is wrong.</s>HOLMES: Hypocrisy is not unusual in politics, but you had some key Republicans back in the day saying the exact opposite of what they say today. When it comes to the Democrat strategy on this inquiry, how are they planning to deal with the stone walling?</s>MURRAY: Well, I think that they're figuring that out right now. I mean, one option is to put forth subpoenas for people that they voluntarily requested information on. The other is to move forward with witnesses that are no longer in the Trump administration, and therefore, might have more freedom to provide testimony, to provide depositions. But then they're going to have to make a more crucial decision about how they want to move forward. They're going to have to decide if they want to have a formal impeachment inquiry vote, which is very politically risky. And it also might not get them what they want. You still might have Republicans and the White House saying they still don't think that this is a valid investigation. The other option is that they could start taking this administration to court. They could leave it up to the third branch of government in the U.S., the judicial system, to make a call on whether this administration has to turn over documents. And so far, they haven't exercised that power yet.</s>HOLMES: Yes. And a lot on the Democrat side fear that that would just mean months in court, and then all of a sudden, oh, there's an election. Sara, thank you so much. Good to see you. Sara Murray there. And we have to take another break here on the program. When we come back, an NBA preseason game takes place in Shanghai despite those tensions between the NBA and China. We'll have that more when we come back.