Interview with Former CDC Director Tom Frieden.
KEILAR: Turning now to the pandemic and a potential early sign that the recent fall in U.S. cases is bottoming out. Once again, the U.S. saw more than a thousand people die from coronavirus in a single day, after days of a lower daily death toll. Today, infectious disease expert Dr. Anthony Fauci is warning about the upcoming Labor Day holiday just as Americans are urged to do all that we can now for the flu season, the first in generations happening during a pandemic. Sound bite. Now in other developments, a new British study finds effects from the coronavirus may last months longer than expected with patients needing to wait more than a month to make sure they're clear of the virus. And some positive updates, the Trump administration will send out low- cost antigen tests starting next month. Plus, newly released research confirms common and cheap steroids can reduce deaths among critically ill coronavirus patients. There's another major headline, and that is that the National Institutes of Health is now saying convalescent plasma should not be treated as a standard of care for COVID-19. This is coming less than 10 days after the FDA authorized emergency use of the treatment. But an NIH panel says there is insufficient data to recommend either for or against the use of the treatment. I'm joined now by Dr. Tom Frieden, he's the former director of the CDC. It's great to see you, Dr. Frieden. You know as well as anyone, this is extremely confusing for families who have loved ones who are in the hospital battling this virus. So just tell us you know, what the truth is here. What's the data on convalescent plasma and should this have gotten CDC authorization?</s>TOM FRIEDEN, FORMER CDC DIRECTOR: Well, the details here are really important. Convalescent plasma is 100 years old, and the FDA, which gave what's called emergency use authorization, basically just has to say it may do more good than harm. And so perhaps that was a valid measure. What's really concerning is how politicized that was. It was billed as a major breakthrough, which it is not. The headlines, the framing, the way it was done really smell of political interference. And Brianna, there have been far too many casualties from COVID, more than 200,000 more Americans died between March and July than have died in other years if the death rate were the same. That's from COVID, and also the disruption that COVID causes. What we don't want is not only lives and education and jobs and our economy, but also our treasured institutions like the Food and Drug Administration and the Centers for Disease Control and prevention, to be really casualties of this pandemic.</s>KEILAR: So I mean, the CDC has been politicized, right? And for it to be effective, it has to resist that politicization. How far gone is it in terms of politicization do you think, and what does it need to do?</s>FRIEDEN: Well, I think if you look at masks or contact tracing or testing or lockdowns or reopening, there's a more effective and a less effective way to do those things. And unfortunately, this administration has used the less effective means. And because of that, the U.S. has a much higher death rate, our economy has taken a harder hit, and we're in worse shape now. We can't get our kids back to school, we can't go back to our workplaces without the kind of risk that could have been avoided. There are things that each of us can do: wear a mask when you're near others, make sure that if you are positive you participate in contact tracing so that contacts can be warned and can quarantine so that they don't become infectious and infect others. There's lots that we can do against this virus, but it's not going to go away on its own. We have to work together. Stay apart, but work together and we can make a lot more progress.</s>KEILAR: Are you worried that some Americans won't trust the CDC?</s>FRIEDEN: I'm very worried about the lack of trust. It's very hard to fight an epidemic if people can't trust what's being said. And if you see the kind of recommendations and statements that are being made by people who are not qualified to make those statements, they don't have training in the control of infectious diseases? it's really not keeping faith with the American people. When you're in an epidemic, it's crucial to be very clear about what you know, when you know it, to state that clearly, to give recommendations for what's proven that people can do. There are some things we definitely know. If you're feeling sick, stay home, get a test. Wear a mask any time you're indoors near other people. And we're learning more about how to treat patients who are very ill in the hospital. That's all good news, but we're still a long, long way from being out of the woods with this virus.</s>KEILAR: Yes. I'm so glad you say that, because we really do need to put into perspective that the foundation of a good public health response is just a government that is being accurate about what is happening, what has happened, what could happen and what Americans need to do here. Let's talk about this critical issue of the vaccine. Dr. Fauci says he thinks there could be one by the end of the year, he says that the data is incredibly good, the FDA could end clinical trials early and give an emergency use authorization when it comes to a vaccine. Let's listen to what he said.</s>ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: I've been through a number of vaccine trials in which EUAs have ultimately been done, but they've been done when there was enough data that you would really feel comfortable that it was safe and effective for the American public.</s>KEILAR: As you know, Doctor, the American public has to feel that it's safe and effective. Would you be comfortable with fast-tracking a vaccine?</s>FRIEDEN: Depends on the data. We need to see the data openly, and the FDA has said they'll provide all of the data openly. There really are three things to look at: Is it effective, does it work? Is it safe? And will people take it, will it be trusted? In terms of that safety, that's a complicated question because sometimes you don't find a problem with a vaccine until tens of hundreds of thousands of people have been vaccinated. That means that not only do you need to start carefully, but you need to monitor over time. And we already have too much distrust in vaccines, we really need complete openness about what's going on with a vaccine, an assurance that it's not politicized, and an understanding that decisions are made with one concept only: How do we save American lives?</s>KEILAR: I want to talk to you about something that Iowa Senator Joni Ernst has suggested, which is the doctors in her state may be intentionally falsifying COVID cases for money. There is -- we've heard no evidence of this, I want to add. But this is her conversation with a local reporter.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now you mentioned something I want to clarify about the COVID numbers and maybe being inflated by health care providers in order to get more reimbursement?</s>SEN. JONI ERNST (R-IA): Yes.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I wanted to give you maybe an opportunity to clarify your thoughts there?</s>ERNST: Well, and again, this is what I've heard from health care providers and others. I can't actually look at that information, but I have heard it from health care providers that they do get reimbursed higher amounts if it's a COVID-related illness or death. So because of the additional expense for PPE and the treatment that might be necessary for COVID-19.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you think the numbers are being inflated because of that?</s>ERNST: That I'm not sure. And again, that's why I want somebody to really go back and do a good fact check on this. And I don't have the means to do that... But I do think that should be discussed because I heard the same thing on the news, you know, traveling across the state today, is that they're thinking there may be 10,000 or less deaths that were actually singularly COVID-19.</s>KEILAR: And Doctor, just a quick fact-check for our viewers. When you look at that death total that we have on the side of our screen -- 185,000 deaths -- there's been this discussion about comorbidity, but obviously these are not deaths that would occur in the absence of coronavirus, so these are coronavirus deaths. I just want to be very clear about that. What do you think about her raising this question of whether essentially doctors are en masse committing fraud when it comes to COVID numbers?</s>FRIEDEN: There is a plain and simple truth here. More than 200,000 Americans died in excess of historical rates between March and July. The death rate is a fact, everything else is inference. Now, if you die from cancer and you also have diabetes, that doesn't mean you didn't die from cancer, that means you had another condition. If you die from COVID and you also had diabetes, that doesn't mean you didn't die from COVID. The facts here are extremely clear. The U.S. death rate, and what we -- the most reliable way of measuring this is what's called the excess mortality, which is the number of deaths beyond the historical baseline, and that's been looked at by the "Financial Times," by "The Economist," news magazines, by the CDC, by "The New York Times. And the data's extremely clear, there are well over 200,000 excess deaths in the U.S. already. And that's a combination of three things. One, someone who died and the doctor said, yes, this was COVID, that's that 185,000 number. Two, people who died from COVID but because there wasn't a test or they died at home or it wasn't recognized, it wasn't recognized to be COVID. And three, people who might have had a heart attack or other serious problem and didn't go to get care because they were afraid or the health care system was overwhelmed. That's the bottom line. We've lost more than 200,000 American lives because the response to this pandemic in the U.S. has not been nearly as effective as many other countries have done.</s>KEILAR: What does it mean to you when we have coronavirus death toll deniers operating in high -- the highest levels of government?