House Investigating Whether President Trump Lied To Robert Mueller
BERMAN: A potentially major new development in the impeachment proceedings. We have learned that House investigators are now examining whether President Trump lied in his written answers during the special counsel probe. Joining us now is CNN legal analyst Jim Baker. He's the FBI's former general counsel. Jim, thanks so much for being with us. And this has to do specifically with whether President Trump lied in his written answers about what he knew about WikiLeaks. And let me read you the answer that has the flashing lights surrounding it. The president said, "I do not recall being aware during the campaign of any communications between the individuals named in question II (c) and anyone I understood to be representative of WikiLeaks or any of the other individuals or entities referred to in the question." He's referring to Roger Stone there. We now know from testimony in the Roger Stone trial that Rick Gates testified that Roger Stone --</s>JIM BAKER, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL SECURITY AND CYBERSECURITY, R STREET INSTITUTE, FORMER GENERAL COUNSEL FOR FBI: Right.</s>BERMAN: -- talked to the president about WikiLeaks. And there's some other testimony to that effect as well. Now, you've told me the issue here might be the president's wording -- 'I do not recall.' Why is it difficult to disprove that statement?</s>BAKER: It's difficult because you're going to have to produce evidence -- well, let me back up. In a normal criminal case, right -- in a normal criminal case where someone's accused of perjury or obstruction of justice in this kind of a setting where they have said I do not recall, the government would have to come forward with evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that that was false and that the person, at the time, actually did recall and knew full well exactly what the facts were and then intentionally lied by saying that they did not recall. Of course, here, we're in a different setting. We're in an impeachment setting and so the standard is, frankly, mushier. It's not exactly clear what standard the House or, if we get to a trial, the Senate is going to -- is going to follow. But, you know, the president is going to have to lean heavily, even in this setting, on those words 'I do not recall.'</s>BERMAN: Because the way you fight it is by showing evidence. How could he not recall that everyone in the campaign knew that WikiLeaks was producing these documents -- everyone in the campaign? I'm using that word loosely there. Many people --</s>BAKER: Right.</s>BERMAN: -- in the campaign knew that there were conversations going on, and that's why House investigators want to get the grand jury material from the Mueller investigation. Why is that significant and what might it show? And what are the chances they'll actually get their hands on it?</s>BAKER: Yes. Well, it appears that Paul Manafort, who was not heard from in the -- in the Stone trial -- but Paul Manafort, the former campaign manager for the president, he appears to have testified about this exact subject as well. And so, that could be very damning evidence and could counter this notion that the president did not recall if the House can get its hands on it. But there is in the Mueller report -- what appears to be Manafort's statements about all of this -- they're all blacked out. You can't -- you can't see exactly what it is that he said. So it makes sense that the House would be trying to get this. And they almost -- they almost can't not do it, right, because --</s>BERMAN: Yes.</s>BAKER: -- it was so blatant, what Mr. Gates said. It's in blatant contrast to what the president had testified. And this goes to -- you know, what Mueller was trying to figure out at this point in time goes right to the core of the question -- that at least the president said this was all about -- which was quote-unquote "collusion" or really, conspiracy, right? What were the links between the campaign and the Russians through WikiLeaks? What did they know? Mueller was trying to figure all that out and the president said well, I don't recall any of that.</s>BERMAN: Yes. And again, it's very significant whenever the House is investigating or Congress is investigating whether the President of the United States lied under oath. We know this president lies. Doing it under oath is a completely different thing. And, Robert Mueller, in his public testimony -- one of the strange moments was when he seemed to indicate that he did not think the president was being fully truthful in these answers, which I guess gets me to where we are this morning, Jim. And this -- some people looked at this yesterday as the president just trying to distract which, frankly, it very well might have been. But the president suggesting that he would strongly consider answering questions to the House impeachment investigators -- maybe in writing. How seriously do you take that? And he'd obviously be exposing himself to enormous risk there.</s>BAKER: Yes, he would. And, you know, if he were to answer those questions and if he were to lie, and if the House could prove it in a trial in the Senate, then that might be something that would turn enough senators against the president. So, it's perilous, I think. Any lawyers who should be advising or who are advising the president, I think they should -- you know, if they're trying to figure out how to help him, should dissuade him from doing that. Now, that doesn't help the House, it doesn't help the Congress, and it doesn't necessarily help the country. But from his own very-narrowly viewed personal interest, the president would probably be making a mistake to fill out -- to provide written answers to the House.</s>BERMAN: And it's also -- there's no reason to believe that he is strongly considering it based on what we went through with the Mueller investigation when he claimed he wanted to answer questions to Robert Mueller and he ultimately didn't. But we will see.</s>BAKER: Never did, right -- at least in person, right, yes.</s>BERMAN: Jim Baker, great to have you with us. Thanks so much for being with us this morning.</s>BAKER: Thank you.</s>BERMAN: Alisyn.</s>CAMEROTA: OK, John. Wisconsin was one of the crucial states for President Trump's election, so how do voters there feel today about the impeachment investigation? CNN went to find out and that's next.