Interview With Janet Murguia of the Council of La Raza
DOBBS: Janet Murguia is the president of the National Council of La Raza. She attacked me last week for in her words "handing hate a microphone" and for driving the debate on illegal immigration in such a way that demonizes the Hispanic community. She is also criticizing the presidential candidates for their newfound focus on illegal immigration. We called Janet Murguia and we're told that -- at least I found out today, before we could ask you, your PR director asked us for you to be here, and we're delighted you are. Janet Murguia joins us now. OK. You and I have talked over the years, many times about illegal immigration. You accused me of being basically a hatemonger. And the reality is, I'm not. And you know that. So let's get to...</s>JANET MURGUIA, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL COUNCIL OF LA RAZA: OK.</s>DOBBS: ... what in the world are you doing with this organization?</s>MURGUIA: Well, I think the key fact is that we can document now a wave of hate and different ways in which that...</s>DOBBS: Let's be -- no, I want to be specific.</s>MURGUIA: Different ways in which the hate is manifested.</s>DOBBS: You're talking about me.</s>MURGUIA: Again...</s>DOBBS: You're talking about me.</s>MURGUIA: Let me just make my case.</s>DOBBS: Sure.</s>MURGUIA: We're talking about a wave of hate and the way that that hate is manifested in different representatives that you have on this show. We have got self-avowed vigilante representatives. This is Chris Simcox. He's been on your show five times on</s>CNN. DOBBS: The founder of the Minutemen.</s>MURGUIA: Founder of the Minuteman Project. And according to the SPLC, Southern Poverty...</s>DOBBS: Which is nothing more than a fund-raising and...</s>MURGUIA: That's your opinion. Let me just get this stuff...</s>DOBBS: That's right, but I'm going to tell you what it is.</s>MURGUIA: Simcox was convicted in 2003 of carrying a weapon in the national park while searching for undocumented immigrants. That same year, he was quoted in an Orange County newspaper saying, "So far, we've had restraint, but I'm afraid that restraint is wearing thin. Take heed of our weapons, because we are going to defend our borders by any means necessary." He's a self-avowed vigilante...</s>DOBBS: Is he in charge of the Minutemen?</s>MURGUIA: Yes. He's the founder of the...</s>DOBBS: No, he's not.</s>MURGUIA: ... of the Minutemen Project.</s>DOBBS: He's no longer associated with the Minutemen.</s>MURGUIA: He is associated and is a spokesperson...</s>DOBBS: No.</s>MURGUIA: ... and was a spokesperson all these times.</s>DOBBS: Jim Gilchrist?</s>MURGUIA: Jim Gilchrist -- co-founder of the Minutemen Project, self-avowed vigilante. And he's been on your show eight times and on CNN 27 times. You said that you proudly, proudly support these projects, that they're fine Americans and who make up all...</s>DOBBS: Can we see what you...</s>MURGUIA: Sure. I'm sorry. You said that you support the Minuteman Project, and that they're fine Americans who make it up in all they've accomplished fully, relentlessly, and proudly.</s>DOBBS: Right.</s>MURGUIA: So I want to make sure you understand. These are folks who are documented to be part of hate groups.</s>DOBBS: Who documented them?</s>MURGUIA: Southern Poverty Leadership...</s>DOBBS: Southern Poverty Law Center...</s>MURGUIA: And the American Defamation League,</s>ADL. DOBBS: Both of whom are absolute advocate groups for open borders and amnesty for illegal aliens.</s>MURGUIA: That's your opinion.</s>DOBBS: No, it's not my opinion.</s>MURGUIA: Yes, it is your opinion.</s>DOBBS: No, it's a fact.</s>MURGUIA: We have a Web site that documents not just these individuals, but others who are tied to hate groups or vigilante groups...</s>DOBBS: What did President Bush call them?</s>MURGUIA: ... and we've seen them on the air...</s>DOBBS: What did...</s>MURGUIA: ... relentlessly...</s>DOBBS: You have never...</s>MURGUIA: ... representing a point of view on immigration. It's like having David Duke on a panel to talk about affirmative action.</s>DOBBS: You're way...</s>MURGUIA: It's unaccepted -- it's unacceptable...</s>DOBBS: You're way overreaching (ph)...</s>MURGUIA: And we don't want to tolerate it anymore. We're taking our case to the network heads and we're asking them to hold the networks accountable. We want to hold...</s>DOBBS: You want me fired, don't you?</s>MURGUIA: No, I'm saying that...</s>DOBBS: Don't you want me fired?</s>MURGUIA: No, I want to hold you accountable for how you use your microphone every night.</s>DOBBS: Who am I to be accountable to? You?</s>MURGUIA: No. You're accountable to the broader...</s>DOBBS: Aren't I accountable to my audience?</s>MURGUIA: You're accountable to the broader public, in making sure that we're bringing factual information...</s>DOBBS: OK, let's talk about some facts, shall we?</s>MURGUIA: ... to the people.</s>DOBBS: I want you to get through your charts.</s>MURGUIA: Sure.</s>DOBBS: I want to point out one thing, if I may, on this. The statement about the Minutemen came after President Bush had called the Minutemen vigilantes.</s>MURGUIA: That's right.</s>DOBBS: The fact is, that the Minutemen -- and please, this is your opportunity. The Minutemen have never, ever been charged with an act of violence...</s>MURGUIA: Chris Simcox was arrested and convicted.</s>DOBBS: Oh, was he a member of the Minutemen when that occurred?</s>MURGUIA: Yes. It was in 2003, and he was founder of the Minutemen Project.</s>DOBBS: And he was doing what?</s>MURGUIA: He was convicted -- arrested and convicted of carrying a gun into a national park searching for undocumented immigrants. All this is documented on our Web site.</s>DOBBS: So you would cast the entire organization of the Minutemen...</s>MURGUIA: I'm casting him. I'm holding you accountable for putting him on the airwaves and saying that he is an expert on immigration reform. That's ridiculous. He's not an expert on immigration reform.</s>DOBBS: Did we say he was an expert, or did we say that he was one of the founders of the Minutemen?</s>MURGUIA: I think you couch this -- you gave him this aura of respectability. You also cited in 2006 a source of your, you know, branding it CNN and Lou Dobbs, around the Council of Conservative Citizens, which also the SPLC has named as a white nationalist hate group. This is a group that denigrates routinely blacks as genetically inferior, complained about, you know, Jewish power, and also denigrated homosexuals as perverted sodomites. All I'm saying is, you're co-branding yourself and CNN with a white supremacist nationalist hate group.</s>DOBBS: Did we do that?</s>MURGUIA: This...</s>DOBBS: Did we really?</s>MURGUIA: ... was on your program on May 23rd...</s>DOBBS: How long was that on the air?</s>MURGUIA: ... 2006.</s>DOBBS: How long was that...</s>MURGUIA: It doesn't matter how long.</s>DOBBS: Of course it does.</s>MURGUIA: It doesn't.</s>DOBBS: Of course it does.</s>MURGUIA: You're using hate speech, hate group to make a case on immigration.</s>DOBBS: I'm going to tell you straight up...</s>MURGUIA: To make a case on immigration.</s>DOBBS: Do you want the answer?</s>MURGUIA: Sure.</s>DOBBS: You want to know how long it was on the air?</s>MURGUIA: It doesn't matter.</s>DOBBS: Seconds. You have just given them more airtime than this network, this broadcast ever did.</s>MURGUIA: And I'm holding you accountable for having given them any sort of exposure.</s>DOBBS: Oh, you are?</s>MURGUIA: And the fact that you're associating yourself...</s>DOBBS: So you should be...</s>MURGUIA: ... with this extremist...</s>DOBBS: I associated myself?</s>MURGUIA: You cite them as a fact...</s>DOBBS: I did?</s>MURGUIA: ... on this...</s>DOBBS: Did I?</s>MURGUIA: This says, "Dobbs --</s>LOU DOBBS TONIGHT, CNN." DOBBS: Right.</s>MURGUIA: That's there for everyone to see.</s>DOBBS: Right.</s>MURGUIA: This is from your show on May 23rd, 2006.</s>DOBBS: Right.</s>MURGUIA: This kind of hate speech, this kind...</s>DOBBS: What year?</s>MURGUIA: 2006.</s>DOBBS: You got anything a little more recent?</s>MURGUIA: We have got a whole Web site that documents all of this.</s>DOBBS: I -- let's go through your Web site. OK?</s>MURGUIA: Yes, sure.</s>DOBBS: Let's go through this.</s>MURGUIA: Yes. Because we've made a case.</s>DOBBS: I want you to...</s>MURGUIA: We want to make sure that you need to know. Just make one point -- hate speech has consequences. We have seen the rise in hate crimes in the same time that these types of comments and people were on your show and on other CNN shows...</s>DOBBS: So I'm responsible for that?</s>MURGUIA: ... Fox, MSNBC -- we're holding all three networks. We saw a rise in hate crimes against Hispanics raised by 23 percent. And twice that in California. Hate speech has consequences.</s>DOBBS: Janet, OK, is it my turn? You have now been talking for over four minutes.</s>MURGUIA: You have the mike every night.</s>DOBBS: So you're taking it away from me tonight?</s>MURGUIA: I'm just saying, I want to make my case.</s>DOBBS: So you wouldn't like -- OK.</s>MURGUIA: I appreciate...</s>DOBBS: Would you like me to -- OK. So what would you like me to do? I will tell you what, we'll give you some more time, and then I'll respond to you tomorrow evening.</s>MURGUIA: OK.</s>DOBBS: How about it?</s>MURGUIA: Well, I appreciate that. I just want to make sure you know, for us, it's intolerable and untenable.</s>DOBBS: Who's us?</s>MURGUIA: The National Council of La Raza. We represent a civil rights and advocacy organization...</s>DOBBS: You're a civil rights and...</s>MURGUIA: ... for 40 years.</s>DOBBS: You're a socio-ethnocentric organization with a specific interest in driving illegal immigration and amnesty, and you know it.</s>MURGUIA: That's your opinion.</s>DOBBS: You are being...</s>MURGUIA: That's your opinion. That's like me saying...</s>DOBBS: You are...</s>MURGUIA: ... you're part of the media elites...</s>DOBBS: You are racially focused (ph)...</s>MURGUIA: ... because CNN is a conglomerate.</s>DOBBS: If I...</s>MURGUIA: We represent 40 years of history in this country of advancing...</s>DOBBS: You are abusing it...</s>MURGUIA: ... the interests of Hispanics.</s>DOBBS: You are abusing it now in a way...</s>MURGUIA: And when you attack immigrants...</s>DOBBS: ... that's (inaudible).</s>MURGUIA: You're attacking now...</s>DOBBS: I have never attacked an immigrant, ever.</s>MURGUIA: When you use these kinds of representatives...</s>DOBBS: No, I have never, ever.</s>MURGUIA: When you use these kinds of representatives...</s>DOBBS: Have I ever attacked an immigrant? Have I ever?</s>MURGUIA: I'm saying that when you...</s>DOBBS: Have I ever spoken against legal immigration in this country?</s>MURGUIA: You make a case...</s>DOBBS: Have I ever...</s>MURGUIA: ... supporting these individuals.</s>DOBBS: I have made a case...</s>MURGUIA: Dan Stein with FAIR...</s>DOBBS: ... for securing the borders.</s>MURGUIA: FAIR is a known, documented hate group.</s>DOBBS: Dan...</s>MURGUIA: They receive...</s>DOBBS: They're a hate group?</s>MURGUIA: That's correct.</s>DOBBS: From -- oh my gosh. You...</s>MURGUIA: This is now -- this is from the Southern Poverty Law Center. They document that their founder, their creator, is John Tanton, a man who remains on FAIR's board and operates a racist publishing company. He once has compared immigrants to bacteria...</s>DOBBS: Janet -- OK.</s>MURGUIA: FAIR has employed members of white supremacists. They promote racist conspiracy theories, and they receive funding from the Pioneer Fund, which is a racist foundation devoted to eugenics and proving a connection between race and IQ. You trot these folks out. You cloak them with an air of respectability, and you give them a platform. That's not acceptable to us, to have these kinds of individuals spewing their rhetoric...</s>DOBBS: Well, you're -- I guess what I'm saying is...</s>MURGUIA: ... on this...</s>DOBBS: ... ladi-da, it's not acceptable to you. What gives you such special prerogative here?</s>MURGUIA: It's not me. This is hate speech.</s>DOBBS: Who is this -- I'm sorry...</s>MURGUIA: This should be offensive not just to us.</s>DOBBS: ... you're the one who's making the charge.</s>MURGUIA: These types of individuals and the words that they use have consequences. We've seen that documented over the period of the last three years.</s>MURGUIA: According to the FBI and the Department of Justice, and that's on our Web site too. I want folks to be able to know that there is a wave of hate out there. It's being generated in many respects by the cable news networks, and we want to hold them accountable for the individuals that they're using on the airwaves. And we don't want commentators parroting their speech, because it only manifests...</s>DOBBS: Well, I'm a lot of things, but I'm sure not a bigot and I'm sure not a parrot. And I think what gives you the greatest trouble is I'm an independent, and I'm not going to put up with the nonsense, whether it originates with La Raza, whether it originates with FAIR, and the fact that you...</s>MURGUIA: This isn't about you, Lou.</s>DOBBS: Oh, yes, it is.</s>MURGUIA: No, it's not.</s>DOBBS: Yes, it is.</s>MURGUIA: It's about holding...</s>DOBBS: You have attacked me.</s>MURGUIA: ... your network accountable.</s>DOBBS: You called me...</s>MURGUIA: It's about holding your network accountable...</s>DOBBS: My network is accountable...</s>MURGUIA: ... for allowing...</s>DOBBS: ... every day.</s>MURGUIA: Well, we are going to make sure...</s>DOBBS: This network...</s>MURGUIA: ... that that's the case.</s>DOBBS: Oh, you're not going to make certain at all.</s>MURGUIA: We are meeting -- I already have a meeting with CNN worldwide president...</s>DOBBS: Jim Walton.</s>MURGUIA: ... Mr. Jim Walton...</s>DOBBS: Right.</s>MURGUIA: ... to talk to him about this.</s>DOBBS: He's a good man to start with.</s>MURGUIA: Well, we're going to hold you accountable. We're going to hold the other networks accountable.</s>DOBBS: And what are you going to do?</s>MURGUIA: We're going to ask them to remove these kinds of representatives...</s>DOBBS: So you want me -- you want me fired?</s>MURGUIA: Not you. I said these representatives, who are tied to vigilante and hate groups, as documented by the ADL or by the Southern Poverty Law Center. They have no place on the airwaves.</s>DOBBS: Let me tell you something: The Southern Poverty Law Center...</s>MURGUIA: And we want to make sure that you're not parroting their speech.</s>DOBBS: Now -- now, may I respond? Now, for you to inject hate and bigotry into this debate on illegal immigration...</s>MURGUIA: I didn't inject it.</s>DOBBS: ... on your Web site...</s>MURGUIA: I didn't inject it. I can document how it has been injected.</s>DOBBS: It's my turn. It's my turn. I've given you, I think, seven, eight minutes. Let's start with the reality. I have never said a word against a legal immigrant into this country, nor would I ever. I have called for more legal immigration, not less. Now, listen. I listened to you, OK? I want to -- do we have that record on -- let's put up the -- you said a 23 percent increase in hate crimes against Hispanics. Can we put up the full screen on this?</s>MURGUIA: You know, the ADL documents code words for hate.</s>DOBBS: The ADL -- oh, yes, sure.</s>MURGUIA: And you've used a few of those code words for hate.</s>DOBBS: Name one code word.</s>MURGUIA: Well, they talk about dehumanizing. They're demonizing immigrants...</s>DOBBS: That's their word. That's not my word.</s>MURGUIA: Well, I'm telling you, they've had a...</s>DOBBS: What's my word?</s>MURGUIA: ... clear record of documented hate speech.</s>DOBBS: They have.</s>MURGUIA: Yes, they have. They are a very well respected voice.</s>DOBBS: Not by me.</s>MURGUIA: The Anti-Defamation League...</s>DOBBS: They are a joke.</s>MURGUIA: They are not a joke. They are an outstanding organization.</s>DOBBS: I want you to go to that Web site of yours and listen to that discussion on there. That woman is a joke. OK?</s>MURGUIA: That's your opinion. We document this.</s>DOBBS: It's my opinion.</s>MURGUIA: She talks about...</s>DOBBS: May I continue?</s>MURGUIA: ... the efforts to dehumanize and demonize Latinos.</s>DOBBS: Would you please -- oh, come on.</s>MURGUIA: When you refer to them as bringing in massive disease, as we know you have...</s>DOBBS: Do you -- excuse me...</s>MURGUIA: We can document that.</s>DOBBS: Eight seconds on the air, referring one time -- let me ask you something. Do you think that illegal aliens should be exempt from public health standards that are applied to every legal immigrant in this country, is that what you're saying?</s>MURGUIA: This is about code words for hate speech.</s>DOBBS: Code words.</s>MURGUIA: That's right.</s>DOBBS: You are...</s>MURGUIA: And we document that...</s>DOBBS: Janet, you and your organization...</s>MURGUIA: ... on the Web site.</s>DOBBS: ... are completely out of your minds on this issue. If you think -- you have -- are you calling me a bigot?</s>MURGUIA: Lou, I stand by my record as leading an organization...</s>DOBBS: You can stand by your record as you want to...</s>MURGUIA: ... for 40 years as a civil rights advocacy organization, represents 44 million Hispanics in this country.</s>DOBBS: You're sitting here, attacking freedom of speech, suggesting that the only one who can oppose you would be (inaudible)...</s>MURGUIA: We have to draw the line on freedom of speech, when freedom of speech becomes hate speech.</s>DOBBS: You wouldn't be involved in this debate if it were not...</s>MURGUIA: Hate speech is not acceptable.</s>DOBBS: Excuse me. You would not even be involved in this debate on illegal immigration unless the preponderance of those illegal aliens were Hispanic. And you know that is a fact.</s>MURGUIA: I know...</s>DOBBS: I would be involved in this debate no matter what.</s>MURGUIA: ... that we can't stand for dehumanizing and demonizing and scapegoating a segment of our society...</s>DOBBS: Then why in the world have you not taken on the government of Mexico and Central America, and those who create the conditions that drive -- that drive illegal immigration?</s>MURGUIA: We have been engaged in this issue...</s>DOBBS: You have not been engaged.</s>MURGUIA: Yes, we have. And we are making...</s>DOBBS: You have not. When was the last time you spoke...</s>MURGUIA: ... every case right now...</s>DOBBS: ... with the...</s>MURGUIA: ... to push back on the hate that dehumanizes...</s>DOBBS: When was the last time -- when is the last time you even addressed a foreign government and the quality...</s>MURGUIA: I'm concerned about what's happening here in this country.</s>DOBBS: Oh, I see.</s>MURGUIA: This is about...</s>DOBBS: Why aren't you worrying about our borders being secured, our ports being secured? Why aren't you worried about building...</s>MURGUIA: We are for comprehensive immigration reform, but this is about hate speech.</s>DOBBS: Comprehensive immigration reform?</s>MURGUIA: This is about hate speech, and it has no place...</s>DOBBS: Janet, what this is about is...</s>MURGUIA: ... on the air. You can try to divert this away from the hate and the representatives of vigilante groups, and you're standing with these vigilante groups. These are self-avowed vigilante groups. You're standing proudly by them. You can try to sort of dismiss that, but the reality is, is we can't allow...</s>DOBBS: No, Janet, I'm dismissing...</s>MURGUIA: ... for hate speech to be part of this debate...</s>DOBBS: ... you know...</s>MURGUIA: ... or to control the network airwaves.</s>DOBBS: You know that as you speak right now, I have never spoken a hateful word against illegal immigrants.</s>MURGUIA: You have allowed these folks to have a microphone.</s>DOBBS: Excuse me.</s>MURGUIA: You've given hate a microphone by giving them time on this show.</s>DOBBS: Do we have -- since...</s>MURGUIA: And you've done it repeatedly. CNN...</s>DOBBS: OK, would you please put up...</s>MURGUIA: ... has done it repeatedly.</s>DOBBS: Oh, come on.</s>MURGUIA: And in the course of the last three years...</s>DOBBS: Crimes against Hispanics. Let's put that up. Hate crimes.</s>MURGUIA: ... the three cable networks have allowed these folks to have the airways...</s>DOBBS: Here's what you said.</s>MURGUIA: ... 110 times.</s>DOBBS: You said on your Web site, 23 percent increase in hate crimes. This is, according to the anti-Hispanic biased crimes in the Federal Bureau...</s>MURGUIA: According to the FBI and the Department of Justice, yes.</s>DOBBS: Please, look. In 2005, 522 incidents against Hispanics.</s>MURGUIA: It's increased by 23 percent in the past three years.</s>DOBBS: I'm just showing you what the FBI's showing us.</s>MURGUIA: And 50 percent in California alone.</s>DOBBS: To 576 against Hispanics...</s>MURGUIA: There is no coincidence between the extreme rhetoric that the debate has taken and a rise in hate crimes. Words have consequences. And our community is feeling the brunt of that.</s>DOBBS: Let me show you -- let me show you something.</s>MURGUIA: Any time you demonize a segment of our society...</s>DOBBS: No, you're trying to demonize me. And I'm going to show you the reality.</s>MURGUIA: This isn't about you, Lou. I know this is your...</s>DOBBS: You took me on and now you got me.</s>MURGUIA: It's not about -- it's about your networks. It's about your networks holding you and other networks...</s>DOBBS: I want you to...</s>MURGUIA: ... accountable.</s>DOBBS: Oh, please. You can't hold yourself accountable. How could you hold anyone else?</s>MURGUIA: We are here...</s>DOBBS: Could you please put this up?</s>MURGUIA: ... with the facts. Look at the Web site, making a very documented case on this.</s>DOBBS: Put up what I've said about illegal immigrants in this country, OK? If you would? We're waiting patiently.</s>MURGUIA: You know...</s>DOBBS: I think -- let's just go through this here.</s>MURGUIA: The white hate mail has gone from hate mail to death threats.</s>DOBBS: If you don't mind -- if you don't mind...</s>MURGUIA: You know...</s>DOBBS: By the way, I get a few death threats too. So Janet, you're not the Lone Ranger. Here's -- may we -- would you do me the service, the kindness...</s>MURGUIA: I don't have a microphone every night.</s>DOBBS: Well, you're not going to have one very long here if you don't at least permit me to respond.</s>MURGUIA: Go ahead.</s>DOBBS: "I think I'm the only one on this panel" -- this is going back to May 15th, 2006 -- "who's actually worked with migrant workers in the fields, with beans, potatoes, hay in my youth. I know them to be good and decent people." That was on Larry King.</s>MURGUIA: Who said that?</s>DOBBS: I said that. And by the way, I've said I respect illegal immigrants in this country dozens of times, but you don't seem to take note of that. Here's what I said on...</s>MURGUIA: Not when you parade these individuals...</s>DOBBS: Excuse me, excuse me, excuse me...</s>MURGUIA: ... who are tied to hate groups and vigilantes...</s>DOBBS: Oh, come on.</s>MURGUIA: And when you embrace...</s>DOBBS: It isn't working, Janet.</s>MURGUIA: ... vigilante organizations...</s>DOBBS: We're going to finish this. And then I said...</s>MURGUIA: When you embrace vigilante organizations, that speaks for itself.</s>DOBBS: Oh, yes. Well, first of all, they're not a vigilante, they're a volunteer organization. And I think the president...</s>MURGUIA: Lou, they carry -- they believe in arming themselves.</s>DOBBS: By the way, it's the Second Amendment, do you believe in it?</s>MURGUIA: I believe in the Constitution.</s>DOBBS: They have a right to bear arms.</s>MURGUIA: But when they go after...</s>DOBBS: May we complete this?</s>MURGUIA: ... and hunt down undocumented immigrants -- how do they know who's undocumented...</s>DOBBS: "I have great respect for the people...</s>MURGUIA: ... and how do they know who's here legally?</s>DOBBS: ... who make up...</s>MURGUIA: You can't tell the difference.</s>DOBBS: Janet, Janet, just, please...</s>MURGUIA: They're tracking these folks down in stores...</s>DOBBS: Just listen. I want to save you as much embarrassment...</s>MURGUIA: ... not just on the border anymore.</s>DOBBS: ... as I can.</s>MURGUIA: Lou...</s>DOBBS: "I have great respect for the people who make up the preponderance of the illegal alien population in our country, that is Mexican migrant workers." On March 29th, 2006. To Jorge Ramos, who said, "I would love you to meet these illegals that you so called." OK? I had to tell Jorge, Univision anchor -- unfortunately, partner, there's nothing to be gained here, because I worked with them, I know them, I respect them.</s>MURGUIA: You don't respect them when you trot out these individuals...</s>DOBBS: Oh, please.</s>MURGUIA: ... and when you embrace a vigilante organization.</s>DOBBS: No, no, you don't respect...</s>MURGUIA: You don't respect them, Lou, if you're going to continue to put these individuals on the air...</s>DOBBS: What you're basically saying is my words...</s>MURGUIA: ... who use this as a platform...</s>DOBBS: Only the words...</s>MURGUIA: ... for hate.</s>DOBBS: ... that you want to use are the ones you'll pay attention to.</s>MURGUIA: And they're tied to hate groups and vigilante groups.</s>DOBBS: You won't pay attention to the other words that I use. This broadcast has covered illegal immigration in this country and border security for six years. In that period of time, we have referred to disease three times. You make a comment on your Web site, that I referred to invaders. You may find it intriguing -- referring to the illegal immigration population in this country -- you may find it intriguing, because we thought we'd go back and look. Invaders has been used six times on this broadcast.</s>MURGUIA: And we...</s>DOBBS: Do you know how many...</s>MURGUIA: You, Glenn Beck, Pat Buchanan -- you're not the only one...</s>DOBBS: Do you want to listen to what I'm saying?</s>MURGUIA: I am just making sure you understand...</s>DOBBS: No. Because I want you to understand...</s>MURGUIA: ... we documented every piece that you did on this...</s>DOBBS: But there is, as you say, accountability. And there is truth.</s>MURGUIA: That's right.</s>DOBBS: And the reality is it has been used six times on this broadcast. I used it once, and you have used it one-third of the times used on this broadcast.</s>MURGUIA: You've used these individuals 18 times...</s>DOBBS: The word "invader" fell from your mouth, not mine.</s>MURGUIA: You've used these individuals 18 times in the past two years.</s>DOBBS: Do you want to deal with what I'm saying?</s>MURGUIA: CNN has used them 48 times.</s>DOBBS: Or do you want to just keep...</s>MURGUIA: I'm making the case.</s>DOBBS: Try it.</s>MURGUIA: You've used them 18 times.</s>DOBBS: Invaders, six times.</s>MURGUIA: We document every time you've done that.</s>DOBBS: No, we document it. We don't pay attention to your documentation anymore.</s>MURGUIA: Well, it's hate speech. It's parroting...</s>DOBBS: Oh, it's hate speech?</s>MURGUIA: It's parroting hate speech.</s>DOBBS: OK. Let me tell you what...</s>MURGUIA: There's no room for hate in this debate.</s>DOBBS: You're not going to -- you're not...</s>MURGUIA: There's no room for hate.</s>DOBBS: There's no room for further distortion.</s>MURGUIA: We can have an honest policy discussion....</s>DOBBS: You will not distinguish...</s>MURGUIA: ... but we need to take hate out of the debate.</s>DOBBS: You can't have an honest policy discussion.</s>MURGUIA: We can have an honest policy discussion.</s>DOBBS: Let's try a couple of things and just see if we can agree on a couple of them, shall we? All right?</s>MURGUIA: Sure.</s>DOBBS: We need to secure our borders and our ports for the following reasons. For national security. And the war on terror. To win the war on drugs, because Mexico is the principal source of methamphetamines, heroin, cocaine and marijuana. And to stop illegal immigration. Can we agree?</s>MURGUIA: We can. This isn't about immigration, though. This is about hate speech and hate groups and vigilante groups, OK?</s>DOBBS: Oh, I understand. I understand. I know what it's about.</s>MURGUIA: So we can have...</s>DOBBS: It's pure political advocacy...</s>MURGUIA: ... a discussion about immigration policy.</s>DOBBS: It's fine.</s>MURGUIA: This isn't about immigration policy.</s>DOBBS: Do you want to try it?</s>MURGUIA: This is about hate speech and hate groups.</s>DOBBS: Do you want to try to go through the list?</s>MURGUIA: Of?</s>DOBBS: Of what we might agree on?</s>MURGUIA: We just talked about the need for comprehensive immigration reform.</s>DOBBS: And you dismissed it. Sure, if you want to talk about hate speech, let me tell you...</s>MURGUIA: We agree on the need for comprehensive immigration reform.</s>DOBBS: If you find -- even though the Congressional Budget Office itself declared that it would deal with only 25 percent of the problem of illegal immigration, would cost the country a fortune.</s>MURGUIA: What would? Dealing with...</s>DOBBS: Comprehensive immigration reform legislation that was declined (ph) in the United States Senate on June 28th, 2007.</s>MURGUIA: We can have -- we can have a separate discussion on immigration.</s>DOBBS: No, that's what the Congressional Budget...</s>MURGUIA: But don't dismiss this hate speech and the fact that these individuals that you parade and cloak with an air of respectability are identified and self-avowed vigilante organizations and hate groups.</s>DOBBS: OK.</s>MURGUIA: I mean, we can have a separate discussion about immigration. This is about keeping hate and hate speech out of the debate.</s>DOBBS: You said it wasn't about me. Now, is it about me or it isn't?</s>MURGUIA: It's about holding you accountable with your networks. And we did cite other networks, MSNBC and Fox.</s>DOBBS: I don't care about them. I don't care. I care about this broadcast...</s>MURGUIA: Well, we care about it, because...</s>DOBBS: ... and me.</s>MURGUIA: ... this repeated and relentless...</s>DOBBS: And I care about it because I believe you...</s>MURGUIA: ... use of these individuals to distort...</s>DOBBS: ... and your socio-ethnocentric interest group....</s>MURGUIA: ... immigrants -- oh please, Lou.</s>DOBBS: ... are trying to drive an agenda that has nothing...</s>MURGUIA: Ethnocentric -- we're a civil rights organization.</s>DOBBS: You're an ethnocentric organization...</s>MURGUIA: ... trying to level the playing field...</s>DOBBS: You're not trying to level anything.</s>MURGUIA: I'm as much of an ethnocentric organization as you are part of...</s>DOBBS: You're trying to...</s>MURGUIA: ... the media elite, a corporate conglomerate here on</s>CNN. DOBBS: Really?</s>MURGUIA: Yes.</s>DOBBS: I couldn't agree with you more.</s>MURGUIA: Well, OK. Embrace that title. I don't embrace your title that you've given me. We're a civil rights and advocacy organization...</s>DOBBS: You're going to have to (inaudible) something...</s>MURGUIA: ... with the record of creating opportunities...</s>DOBBS: You are now attacking me...</s>MURGUIA: ... for the Hispanics in this country.</s>DOBBS: You are attacking people for hate speech...</s>MURGUIA: We've opened the door for opportunities...</s>DOBBS: ... and I'm going to fight you with every resource I have, because you have stepped over the line. And you are trying to tear apart the First Amendment. You can't stomach the fact...</s>MURGUIA: Not at all.</s>DOBBS: ...that there are different opinions...</s>MURGUIA: Free speech is one thing; hate speech is another thing.</s>DOBBS: Should I ask for La Raza to be disbanded because you and I disagree about illegal immigration with me?</s>MURGUIA: I'm not trying to disband you.</s>DOBBS: Should you disband?</s>MURGUIA: I'm saying...</s>DOBBS: You said, take me out of my chair?</s>MURGUIA: If you don't...</s>DOBBS: If I don't conform to you and your standards.</s>MURGUIA: If you don't conform to standards that any American would embrace.</s>DOBBS: La Raza is now an advocacy group trying to drive amnesty for illegal aliens in this country...</s>MURGUIA: That's your opinion.</s>DOBBS: No, it's what you're doing.</s>MURGUIA: No, it's not.</s>DOBBS: OK, then you tell me. You don't want amnesty?</s>MURGUIA: We're here talking about hate speech.</s>DOBBS: You don't want amnesty?</s>MURGUIA: No.</s>DOBBS: OK.</s>MURGUIA: We're supporting...</s>DOBBS: Then we're good.</s>MURGUIA: We have supported taking deliberate steps to allow for an earned citizenship pathway for the folks who are here. We need to address the issue of immigration. But today, Lou, this is about taking hate speech and representatives of hate groups...</s>DOBBS: No, you're trying to stifle speech.</s>MURGUIA: ... and vigilante...</s>DOBBS: You're trying to stifle speech.</s>MURGUIA: Absolutely not. There is a line that has been crossed...</s>DOBBS: And you know...</s>MURGUIA: ... and we know when that line is crossed, Lou...</s>DOBBS: You do.</s>MURGUIA: We've seen it crossed before.</s>DOBBS: You are now the standard bearer for truth and free speech in this country?</s>MURGUIA: We need to hold networks accountable.</s>DOBBS: I thought you were a civil rights -- you need to hold yourself accountable.</s>MURGUIA: As a civil rights organization...</s>DOBBS: You've got half the Hispanic kids in this country almost dropping out of high school.</s>MURGUIA: And we can work on agendas to help...</s>DOBBS: You are -- and you're going -- and what are you doing?</s>MURGUIA: ... address that, but we can't, because every day we're tarred and feathered...</s>DOBBS: What you are doing -- you're working on illegal immigration...</s>MURGUIA: ... with this issue, and you contribute to that.</s>DOBBS: Janet Murguia, you have contributed to, to me, just a reprehensible approach on the part of any organization. You've joined the Southern Poverty Law Center, which is now nothing more than an advocacy and fund-raising organization. I think you are the one who should be held accountable.</s>MURGUIA: We are going to hold you accountable with the networks and we're going to hold...</s>DOBBS: And we're going to hold you accountable as well.</s>MURGUIA: ... Glenn Beck accountable, we're going to hold...</s>DOBBS: You can hold everybody accountable.</s>MURGUIA: ... all those individuals who...</s>DOBBS: The reality is, you can't stand the fact that we have free speech in this country, that you can be opposed and opposed effectively...</s>MURGUIA: Free speech is one thing...</s>DOBBS: ... by people who care about reason...</s>MURGUIA: ... hate speech is another, Lou.</s>DOBBS: ... in this country. Oh, come on.</s>MURGUIA: We won't tolerate hate speech.</s>DOBBS: You won't tolerate it?</s>MURGUIA: That's right.</s>DOBBS: Neither will</s>I. MURGUIA: OK.</s>DOBBS: Thank you very much.</s>MURGUIA: Thanks.</s>DOBBS: Janet Murguia. Still ahead, three top political analysts join me. We'll have the latest on the presidential campaign. Stay with us and I just want to say, Janet Murguia, you're welcome back any time to continue this discussion. Anyone who wants to advocate on the basis -- we delight in having you here.</s>MURGUIA: Thank you.</s>DOBBS: Thank you. We'll be right back.