Web Video of Zarqawi Released
HARRIS: All right. One of the stories that we are following this hour is a web posting from Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the leader of al Qaeda in Iraq. We and to get some context for these statements from CNN terrorism expert Peter Bergen, is on the line with us. And, Peter, when we talked over the weekend, we were talking about an audiotape from Osama bin Laden. And here we are a few days later, and we're talking about a Web posting from Abu Musab al- Zarqawi. What is going on here?</s>PETER BERGEN, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: The battle of the tapes, it seems. You know, Zarqawi has, I think in recent months, been keeping something of a low profile. You may remember that Zawahiri, the No. 2 in al Qaeda, had written a letter to Zarqawi suggesting he stop beheading his hostages, as it was turning off popular support. Zarqawi seems to have stopped that tactic almost entirely, although he continues to attack Shia. But overall, I think Zarqawi has been keeping a lower profile, and this tape certainly changes that.</s>HARRIS: And Peter, over the weekend, we discussed that the tape from Osama bin Laden may be an attempt for Osama bin Laden to reassert himself and to demonstrate that he is in control. What, then, do we make of this Web posting a few days later? Could one construe that this is Abu Musab al-Zarqawi reasserting himself?</s>BERGEN: Possibly. I mean, Zarqawi back in 2004 actually renamed his group al Qaeda in Iraq and swore a public oath of allegiance to bin Laden. So he has, at least in the past, at least played nominal sort of obeisance to al Qaeda's leader. It will be interesting on this tape if there's any mention of bin Laden at all or al Qaeda. Maybe Zarqawi's trying to step out of the al Qaeda orbit.</s>HARRIS: That was my next question. Is there anything that you have seen recently to suggest that these two might be at odds?</s>BERGEN: Well, yes and no. I mean, Zarqawi has often called for, you know, attacks on Shias and has conducted attacks on Shias in Iraq. And both bin Laden and Zawahiri had never criticized Shias. They've never criticized Iran. They don't want to be part of a civil war between Shias and Sunnis. And so certainly, Zarqawi in the past has gone his own way on that subject. On the other hand, he has stopped beheadings. That's something that al Qaeda's leadership was suggesting he do. So it's sort of a mixed picture. He's doing his own thing to some degree but maybe taking some guidance from al Qaeda's leaders on the Afghan/Pakistan border.</s>HARRIS: Looking at some of these quotes, let me run some of these by you for your reaction. "Your Mujahideen sons were able to confront the most ferocious of crusader campaigns on a Muslim state. They have stood in the face of this onslaught for three years." This is clearly an attempt to continue to rally the troops to this cause. And, again, as in all of these tapes, this language of the west as being crusaders.</s>BERGEN: Well, you know, one interesting thing about this tape is that it was posted to the Internet rather than going to Al Jazeera. On the weekend, Tony, as we discussed that audiotape from bin Laden went to Al Jazeera. That to me was kind of puzzling. Because sending something to Al Jazeera, you know, you run the possibility that somebody may be able to trace the chain of custody of the tape from Al Jazeera back to whoever was sending it. If you post it to the Web, you get around that problem. And of course, Zarqawi is very much a child of the Internet. He really came to the public focus when he posted the beheading the American, Nicholas Berg, on the Internet. And he came -- he went from being sort of a deficient "B" leader of the insurgency to the most well- known figure amongst the insurgents. And so he's very comfortable with the Internet. It's much less problematic, posting to the Internet. You can do it from anywhere. And you can guarantee your security.</s>HARRIS: Peter, any doubt in your mind it is Zarqawi, al Qaeda in Iraq, that is attempting to ferment sectarian violence and possibly a civil war?</s>BERGEN: No doubt about it. As you probably know, most of the suicide attacks in Iraq are being conducted by foreign fighters. Zarqawi himself is a Jordanian. Sixty percent of the suicide attacks in Iraq, in a recent study, were being conducted by Saudis. And many of those suicide attacks, of course, directed against Shia targets. So while the insurgency is largely made up of Iraqis, the foreign fighters and the suicide attacks are actually, paradoxically, mostly made up of foreigners.</s>HARRIS: And Peter, when you -- I'm wondering about the extent to which this can rally like-minded people to this cause and keep them motivated. When you see this posting -- and we haven't seen anything from Zarqawi in, boy, I don't know how long. You have a better handle on it than I do. Does this have the effect, in your mind, of rallying the troops?</s>BERGEN: No doubt. I mean, I think that's the intent -- the intention here.</s>HARRIS: OK. Peter Bergen, we appreciate it. We'll give you an opportunity to take a look at some of these quotes and give us your insights a bit later. Peter, we appreciate it. Thank you.</s>BERGEN: Thank you, Tony, bye.</s>NGUYEN: We want to update you now on a developing story, something that we've been following since the beginning of this newscast, out of Hueytown, Alabama, where a chemical scare occurred a little bit earlier today. Here's what we know so far. This chemical scare occurred at a post office in suburban Birmingham. Here's what they found. This found a -- what's being described as a "magic box." Now, we don't know exactly what that is. But something spilled out of this magic box which caused people to get sick. Seven people were transported to local hospitals with breathing problems. They were also vomiting, as well. The substance has since been cleaned up. Don't know yet what that substance is, what it was, why it caused people to get sick. But at this point, it seems that the chemical scare at the post office appears to be in its final stages. People have been transported to the hospital. And we're going to keep you on top of all this, as we get information as to exactly what occurred there, what that chemical is, and what's being done about it. So stay with us for that -- Tony.</s>HARRIS: Betty, we want to talk to our senior editor for Arab affairs. Octavia Nasr is on the line with us. And Octavia, we talked a bit over the weekend, as well. We spent some time on the Osama bin Laden tape over the weekend. And here we are, a few days later, and we have this Web posting from al-Zarqawi. It is clearly some kind of media offensive, old media, the use of Al Jazeera, by Osama bin Laden, and new media, this Web posting from al-Zarqawi. What do you make of it all?</s>OCTAVIA NASR, CNN SENIOR EDITOR FOR ARAB AFFAIRS: First of all, very interesting. And definitely a busy time for both al Qaeda in general and al Qaeda in Iraq in particular. You know, Osama bin Laden about two years ago accepted Abu Musab al-Zarqawi into the al Qaeda fold. So he said that he does represent al Qaeda in Iraq and asked all the -- in his words, Mujahideen, to stand by him and support him. So, you know, he sees it as an al Qaeda video. As you said, it was posted on an Islamist -- a radical Islamist web site, which is the medium of choice for al Qaeda in Iraq and the Zarqawi group. Very interesting, because this is the first time that we hear...</s>HARRIS: Now let me stop you, and I'll tell you...</s>NASR: Yes, go ahead.</s>HARRIS: Let me stop you right there, and I'll have you pick up right there with that point in a moment. I just want to explain to the folks what they're watching. They're actually watching video from this radical Islamic site that you just mentioned. Right now, folks are looking at a picture of Osama bin Laden. But moments ago, there was this most recent web posting from Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. OK. Octavia, you can continue now, sorry.</s>NASR: Basically, this is a montage. This is a production from the al Qaeda in Iraq group. That's why you're seeing all those images. Sometimes bin Laden. Sometimes you see Zarqawi, for example.</s>HARRIS: True.</s>NASR: Like he is here. Other times, you know, he's out in the field. Other times he's inside, in -- in like a living room setting. Other times he's sitting on the floor, chatting with, you know, his supporters and followers. So this is something that is put together, that is produced by the group al Qaeda in Iraq. And, you know, obviously this is a propaganda tape.</s>HARRIS: Yes.</s>NASR: What's on it -- you know, we're listening to what Zarqawi is saying on the tape, first of all, to see if it has any date markers. You know, this is the first thing that we do here at</s>CNN: to identify this tape and see if it has any tape markers, because that will tell us if Zarqawi is alive today. Because this could be something that was taped earlier and is being released now. It doesn't really tell much about where he is now, whether he is alive or dead at this point. So we at this moment, we are going through what Zarqawi says on the tape to determine that. If it's Zarqawi, you look at him -- we do have pictures of Zarqawi of late. You know, we at CNN, had pictures recovered from one of the raids in Fallujah, about two years ago, when our Jane Arraf was embedded with the U.S. military...</s>HARRIS: That's right, yes.</s>NASR: And we have those pictures. So we do have pictures to compare them to this video in order to identify the man. So it is Zarqawi. But, again, more important than this video is going to be what he's saying on that tape, if he's saying anything to give us a time marker. And, also, we look for calls for action on those tapes. And we will be analyzing all this and bringing it to the audience as soon as possible.</s>HARRIS: Octavia, do we have any way of knowing at this point in time whether or not these are -- this is a tape from -- a posting, a statement, from al-Zarqawi that has been spliced together to include these images of Osama bin Laden or if this is a singular production unit?</s>NASR: You know, that's a very good question, Tony. Because, you know, we do not know. You know, there are so many insurgency groups inside Iraq, operating inside Iraq today. They all have different names. You look at this video, for example. It has different logos.</s>HARRIS: Yes.</s>NASR: It has different names of different groups. So that is a very good question that not many people have an answer to, if at all, as a matter of fact.</s>HARRIS: OK. And here's the reason I ask that. It's because I asked Peter Bergen just a moment ago whether or not there is, you know, whether or not that tape over the weekend was Osama bin Laden, reasserting himself, whether this is Abu Musab al-Zarqawi reasserting himself. And perhaps this might indicate some kind of a split between the two men?</s>NASR: Look that is, also, another great question, Tony. In the -- in the intelligence circles there is a discussion going on as to the relationship between these two men. As a matter of fact, on Sunday, when you and I talked about the Osama bin Laden tape, I mentioned that some experts on Al Jazeera, for example, discussing this very issue, basically saying that Osama bin Laden feels that he was sort of over staged -- or upstaged by Zawahiri, his No. 2 man in al Qaeda, and perhaps Zarqawi. And he felt the need to -- even though it's a big risk for him, he felt the need to go ahead and tape a message and send it out, to reassert himself as the leader of al Qaeda. So in the intelligence circles and in the terrorism expert circles...</s>HARRIS: Yes.</s>NASR: ... this discussion going on, definitely.</s>HARRIS: OK.</s>NASR: Is there a power struggle? Because many times we've seen the Zarqawi group in Iraq take hostages, behead them, act in a way that even the supporters of bin Laden wouldn't accept and wouldn't agree with.</s>HARRIS: Yes.</s>NASR: And now, of course, you're seeing a lot of violence going on inside Iraq, Muslims against Muslims.</s>HARRIS: OK.</s>NASR: And that has to call for that kind of question.</s>HARRIS: So Octavia, we're going to let you take a break here and take a look at this posting. And if there's something else of real significance that you think we should know about, please let us know, OK?</s>NASR: You bet, Tony.</s>HARRIS: OK. Octavia, appreciate it.</s>NGUYEN: We're going to continue to get some insight into this with Nic Robertson, our senior international correspondent. He joins us on the line. Nic, I want to pick up with something that Tony and Octavia were talking about. These two videos. One, the tape of Osama bin Laden, which was released over the weekend. Now you've got today's Web video of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. Is this something that may have been calculated between the two or are we seeing a fight for power here?</s>NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I think the best analysis of communication between Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi and Osama bin Laden is that it's been written communication, because there have been letters that have been intercepted by intelligence operatives. And so it would seem unlikely given the timing that they would be able to -- that this would -- they would be able to manufacture this new tape so quickly. But it shouldn't be ruled out. I think we'll get a better analysis when we can hear exactly what from Osama bin Laden has been spliced into the Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi tape here. What intelligence experts in the region have been saying over the past few months is that what Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi has been trying to do is trying to legitimize himself. In the eyes of many Muslims, his very bloody videos of a couple of years ago, of beheadings of people, of some very, very -- even to jihadists, outrageous attacks, massacring and suicide bombings, 80, more than 100 people in some cases, and many, many of them innocent Iraqis, women and children among them, that that has outraged people. And the intelligence analysis in the region at the moment, in the Middle East, is that Zarqawi is really trying to moderate himself, that he's trying to put a better light on his operations in Iraq. Indeed, it was recently stated that Zarqawi was essentially handing over political control of al Qaeda in Iraq to another operative and he was going to look after military affairs, and that was widely seen as an effort to get himself some credibility in Iraq. Also on this tape, he talked about a mujahadeen council. Intelligence experts in the region believe that is part of the same thing, that Zarqawi is trying to establish himself as a representative of Iraqis, that there are a council of people around him that is working in conjunction with others, and I think that's what we're seeing here. It does appear to be the first publicly released video that Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi seems to have released in this way, and this does appear to be part, in this context, of a broader effort to give himself a better face, if you will, to be more appealing to more jihadists, and to try and make himself more credible to Iraqis at this time as well -- Betty.</s>NGUYEN: Well, and another thing, too, that really kind of goes with what you've been saying, is this was released as a Web video. Is this a way to reach more people, to reach the masses?</s>ROBERTSON: Well what happens often when Osama bin Laden or Ayman Al Zawahiri, his right-hand man, have released videotapes or audio tape is they tend to release them to the Arabic-language broadcaster Al Jazeera, and Al Jazeera, like many stations, tends to broadcast only short extracts of those releases. By putting it on the Internet, it gives an opportunity for everybody who wants to listen to everything that Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi has to say, they can listen to the whole thing. None of it is going to get filtered out. So that is one way. It's also a way of making it very quickly, very widely available to jihadists around the world, so they can get online and go and watch it. So it's probably an effort really to get his message out as broadly, as quickly as possible. But also the whole message, not just cut down parts of it.</s>NGUYEN: We're going to give you some time to look at that whole message, because I know there's a lot of things you're going to be looking for specifically, including those time stamps. So we're going to let you go for now. Nic Robertson, our senior international correspondent. Of course we'll be talking with you later on throughout the day. Thank you, Nic. There is more LIVE FROM coming up, so don't go away.