Study: Virus Far More Widespread in New York Than Thought; Trump Proposes Light, Disinfectant as Possible Treatments
MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: -- hospital in the U.K. hit hard by coronavirus as they prepare to face a feared second wave. Welcome everyone. The United States is now closing in on 50,000 deaths from COVID-19, according to Johns Hopkins University, an astonishing and troubling acceleration of death, considering just one month ago, the number was 500. Infections and fatalities are expected to keep rising. New York's governor says new test results suggest the coronavirus could be far more widespread than previously believed. Despite that, other U.S. states like Georgia are starting to fire up their economies, starting in the hours ahead. President Trump says he is not on board with that. Too soon, he says. And a key data model often cited by the White House shows Georgia should wait another two months to start relaxing restrictions. Other governors and mayors facing some tough choices ahead. CNN's Nick Watt begins our coverage.</s>NICK WATT, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The number of people infected by this rampant virus in New York state, the global hot spot, might actually be a stunning 10 times higher than we thought.</s>DR. AMESH ADALJA, INFECTIOUS DISEASE EXPERT: It tells us that this virus is much more widespread.</s>WATT: Phase one of an antibody testing program suggests that as many as 2.7 million New Yorkers might have already been infected. But the state's current confirmed case count is just under 270,000.</s>GOV. ANDREW CUOMO (D-NY): Thirteen point nine percent tested positive for having the antibodies. They had the virus. They developed the antibodies. And they are now, quote unquote, "recovered."</s>WATT: New York's death toll of around 19 and a half thousand is almost certainly also too low.</s>CUOMO: That number is going to go up. Those deaths are only hospitalization or nursing home deaths. That does not have what are called at-home deaths.</s>WATT: Now, a higher infection rate could mean this virus is actually less deadly than we thought. It kills fewer of those who get it. And --</s>ADALJA: We are developing some immunity to this. There are people that have mild illness that don't even know that they're sick. And those individuals may be part of how we move forward, how we start to think about reopening.</s>WATT: But New York is not opening up. Not yet.</s>DR. RICHARD BESSER, FORMER ACTING DIRECTOR, CDC: We need to see how this is playing out in each community and have the ability to test thoroughly and protect citizens before we think about opening up.</s>DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASE: We absolutely need to significantly ramp up. I am not overly confident right now, at all.</s>WATT: Wherever, whenever we open, cases will likely rise.</s>CARLOS GIMENEZ, MIAMI-DADE COUNTY, FLORIDA MAYOR: We're never going to come up with something which is -- gives you a zero probability or possibility that you're going to spread the virus. But what we want to do is make sure that you reduce the possibility.</s>WATT: In Miami-Dade, despite a new case count that is not consistently coming down in accordance with those White House reopening guidelines, apparently, they're planning to reopen marinas, golf courses, and parks with twists.</s>GIMENEZ: You will be able to play tennis. Singles tennis but not doubles tennis. You have to jog in a certain direction. So there are a lot of differences.</s>WATT: And meatpacking plants still seeing outbreaks across the country. Tyson just closed its fourth facility, a beef processing plant in Washington state, to test all employees. This place usually produces enough beef every day to feed four million people. Not anymore. Nick Watt, CNN, Los Angeles.</s>HOLMES: Well, a few odd or you could say even dangerous moments at Thursday's White House coronavirus briefing. A Department of Homeland Security official who is not a scientist said sunlight, heat and humidity appear to have what he called a powerful effect on coronavirus particles in the air and on surfaces. But that's not where it got dangerous. President Trump urging officials to figure out a way to use UV waves on human beings as a treatment. And that wasn't all. The president also touting the possibility -- the possibility -- there was a way to inject the body with a disinfectant to get rid of the virus. Needless to say, real doctors say no, no, no. And CNN medical analyst Dr. Celine Gounder joins me now. She's an infectious diseases specialist and an epidemiologist and host of the "EPIDEMIC" podcast. Thanks for being with us, Doctor. I mean, I wanted to start by talking about this whole UV light idea. But -- but also the president's comments about it. Let's have a listen to him.</s>DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Supposing we hit the body with a tremendous -- whether it's ultraviolet or just very powerful light, and then I said, supposing you brought the light inside the body, which you can do either through the skin or in some other way. And I think you said you're going to test that, too? It sounds interesting. And then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that? By injection inside or almost a cleaning, because you see it gets in the lungs, and it does a tremendous number on the lungs. So it will be interesting to check that. So that you're going to have to use medical doctors. But it sounds -- it sounds interesting to me.</s>HOLMES: OK. So, quote, "Supposing you brought the light inside the body." Also asking if there's a way to disinfect people via injection. I wanted to get your thoughts on light as some sort of potential therapy, but also the president's comments, which on the face of it do seem they could be interpreted as dangerous. I mean, what are your thoughts?</s>DR. CELINE GOUNDER, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, Michael, I mean, I think it's one thing to talk about treating an N-95 mask with UV light to try to disinfect that over a period of time, you know, say 20 minutes or so. But to do what he's suggesting to the human body, that's, like, very strong radiation that could be cancer causing. That's really quite concerning. And in terms of injecting people or having people drink or however they choose to ingest detergents or other disinfecting products, that can be lethal. And we've already seen some patients or people die from taking hydroxychloroquine that was not formulated as a medication, that was to be used for more industrial kinds of purposes. And so on. And so this is really quite concerning.</s>HOLMES: Would it be significant if more people had this than we previously knew? That it was more widespread in the community? What would that -- what would that tell us?</s>GOUNDER: Well, one, it might tell us that the case fatality rate, so the proportion of people who are infected with this, the proportion who actually die is much lower than we had feared. Which would be a good thing. But the problem is that we're clearly, even with the numbers that we're seeing, who are having severe disease and dying. No matter how you do the math, there are too many people getting sick and dying.</s>HOLMES: Testing, the president keeps saying it's all fine, that there are plenty of tests out there, plenty of testing. I mean, he even said, I think, that some governors have said they don't need testing, which I haven't found one who actually did say that. But how far behind is the U.S. still on testing, compared to where it needs to be? And again, how vital that testing is for a whole raft of reasons, from spread indication to antibody contact tracing and so on.</s>GOUNDER: Well, it's really impossible to contain something if you're flying blind. So it would be like saying we're going to try to control crime, but you can't take fingerprints. You can't pick up, you know, casings from a shooting site. You can't do, you know, any kind of interviews with people at the crime scene. So how are you supposed to track down criminals in the absence of that kind of information? That's essentially what we're trying to do right now. So, you know, this -- this is a situation where we really do need the testing in order to identify who has been infected, who currently is infected, who might be at risk for developing disease, because they have been exposed to somebody who's been infected. And so in a sense, it's about knowing where the disease has been and where it's going next.</s>HOLMES: I wanted to also ask you about, you know, there seems to be growing evidence of potential lingering effects, even if you do recover. I mean, lung damage, lung function, kidney issues, neurological issues. Are we likely to see impacts of this on the recovered patients for years to come?</s>GOUNDER: Well, we're still learning a lot about this, but one of the things that we've learned is that this is a virus that can infect the brain. This is a virus that is causing miniature blood clots in the tiny circulation of the lungs and the kidneys, which is part of the reason you see difficulty with breathing and oxygenation. And it's also part of the reason that many patients develop kidney failure as a result of this infection. And there are probably many other consequences that we haven't fully appreciated yet or seen yet.</s>HOLMES: I also wanted to get your thoughts on other patients. I mean, are they getting the care they need: cancer patients, heart attacks, strokes? I mean, vital follow-up care for serious conditions? There was an M.D. tweeting today that some people with serious conditions were refusing to go to post-acute care facilities, given concern about contracting COVID.</s>GOUNDER: Well, those are really the secondary effects of all of this. Because you have a lot of people who've had to defer their care. Partly, it's their own fear about coming into the hospital. For example, pregnant women, we have pregnant women who are delivering at home, because they are so afraid of coming into the hospital and getting infected, getting their baby infected. And then you have people who have been discouraged by doctors, such as myself, saying you know, this is probably something we can wait for now. Maybe it's elective. But you know, even, quote unquote, "elective" surgeries and so on are not -- they're not completely optional. It's more a question of timing. And the longer people are having to defer those kinds of treatments, the more they are becoming more and more urgent.</s>HOLMES: Yes. Good points. Dr. Celine Gounder, thank you so much. Great to have you on.</s>GOUNDER: My pleasure.</s>HOLMES: And do join us next hour for a replay of our special coronavirus global town hall. Alicia Keys will play her new song, dedicated to the everyday heroes on the front lines of this pandemic. That's coming up in the next hour, right here on CNN. Now, Germany has become a textbook example during this pandemic for handling the crisis better than most. Small shops there are now allowed to reopen, but Chancellor Angela Merkel has a warning about moving too fast. She is joining other European leaders who are calling for a gradual easing of restrictions but says the gains her country has made in slowing the spread are fragile and that Germany is on, quote, "the thinnest ice." Take a listen.</s>ANGELA MERKEL, GERMAN CHANCELLOR (through translator): Nobody likes to hear it, but it's the truth. We are not living in the final phase of the pandemic, but still at the beginning. We will have to live with the virus for a long time.</s>HOLMES: Another European leader managing expectations, Scotland's first minister, Nicola Sturgeon. She says a full return to normal might not happen until next year. She's looking into how Scotland can come out of lockdown with a new framework. That document says restrictions on outdoor activities may be eased before indoor ones, and that schools might reopen in phases. But public offense and gatherings in pubs and the like are likely to remain banned and restricted, at least, for some time to come. Well, they've endured one of the strictest lockdowns of the pandemic. Now, as Wuhan begins to open, we take a look at how businesses are adjusting and the lessons other countries could learn. Also, a country once praised for its containment measures now seeing a surge in coronavirus cases. We'll find out why when we come back.