" Trump Claims He Knew of Cohen Payments "Later On
CUOMO: The president says he didn't know about Michael Cohen's payments to women until later on. But remember, we've already played you a tape that shows this cannot be true. Listen.</s>INTERVIEWER: Did you know about the payments?</s>DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Later on I knew. Later on.</s>COHEN: I need to open up a company for the transfer of all of that info regarding our friend David, you know, so that -- I'm going to do that right away. I've actually come up and I've spoken --</s>TRUMP: Give it to me and --</s>COHEN: And I've spoken to Allen Weisselberg about how to set the whole thing up --</s>CUOMO: There they listen. Here we test. That was before Michael Cohen made the payment. The president is in the room. He's speaking. He's listening. He's directing. The president told you, don't believe what you're reading or seeing. Is that because what you're seeing and hearing prove that he's lying? Let's ask our great debaters to take it on, Jennifer Granholm and Steve Cortes. Steve, let's see if we can go 2 for 2 on the candor meter. His former attorney says you've got to focus on collusion, but in terms of whether or not he's lying about these payments, yes, he's lying and the public has a right to be upset about that. Will you own that reality as well?</s>STEVE CORTES, FORMER HEAD, TRUMP HISPANIC ADVISORY COUNCIL: Well, listen, we have to be very careful about the facts here. And Chris, when you keep playing that tape, you're misrepresenting the facts because that tape is talking about the payments to Karen McDougal which were made by American media and assuming that David is David Pecker in that tape, the fact of the matter is neither Trump nor Cohen ever paid them. So, you're conflating two stories. The Stormy Daniels payment is totally different from the Karen McDougal payment. So Trump can truthfully say that he didn't know about that --</s>CUOMO: No, no, no.</s>CORTES: -- because there was no payment.</s>CUOMO: No, I give you that they are different payments. I never said anything else, by the way. I've always represented that was about Karen McDougal and David Pecker. However -- and also, you're assuming that David Pecker doesn't say the same thing that Michael Cohen does. You'd better check your facts. However, the point remains the same, Steve. I'll bounce it over to you, Jennifer Granholm. He says he didn't know --</s>CORTES: Wait, it doesn't mean the same though. Trump did not pay David Pecker. He didn't pay American media. He didn't pay Karen McDougal.</s>CUOMO: It's about what he knew about what was being done on his behalf. That's why Michael Cohen had to plead guilty to two counts. One for --</s>CORTES: They were discussing paying for something and they never paid for it. Facts are important here, Chris. They discussed paying. They never did in that case.</s>CUOMO: No. You are making a distinction that makes no difference in the analysis.</s>CORTES: It makes all the difference in the world. I can talk about buying a house. If I don't buy it I didn't buy it.</s>CUOMO: Did you know that we were considering you buying a house and how to do it? Did you know or not? That's --</s>CORTES: That's not material. The point is --</s>CUOMO: It's absolutely material.</s>CORTES: He's not lying because he didn't do it.</s>CUOMO: That's not the standard of whether or not he's lying about knowing about what was going on. Jennifer Granholm, what's your case?</s>JENNIFER GRANHOLM, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. I mean, really, Steve, bless your heart for trying to get Trump out of this soup, but he knew that he was paying off women. That's the bottom line. And it's a good thing that we've got evidence other than Michael Cohen's testimony. There's the tape. And who knows what other evidence that the Mueller investigation has that's documentary evidence or testimonial evidence from other people. What is Allen Weisselberg saying? We don't have any idea what's behind the scenes. But as to this notion that Trump did not know, that it is totally belied by the tape.</s>CUOMO: And the idea of even if he knew doesn't matter he's not a crime. And I paid all the money that was put out by Michael Cohen so nobody contributed anything for me. There's still the recording requirement in the statute, Steve.</s>GRANHOLM: Right.</s>CUOMO: So there would still be a legal aspect --</s>CORTES: Hold on, Chris. That's not true. That's not true. If -- and you have to -- again, we have to be careful here. Election law is clear. If an expenditure would have been made, irrespective of the campaign, that's the phrase that's used in election law, if it would have been made anyway then it is not deemed --</s>CUOMO: But Michael Cohen said he made it to help the campaign.</s>CORTES: Michael Cohen -- Michael Cohen the felon and dishonest rat said that.</s>GRANHOLM: Come on.</s>CORTES: And we're going to take his word as gospel truth --</s>CUOMO: The president sure disagrees with you about what Michael Cohen is. He said he was a good man, an honorable man.</s>CORTES: He's suddenly George Washington who can't tell a lie. Look, Michael Cohen was facing decades in prison because he committed really serious crimes that had nothing to do, totally unrelated to Mr. Trump, then Mr. Trump, now President Trump. Because of that, the prosecutors were able to squeeze him and put him in the corner as they often do and get him to admit --</s>CUOMO: Because of what he did they were able to squeeze him.</s>CORTES: And get to admit to a non-crime because it's not a crime. There are many --</s>CUOMO: You spend money on your campaign and you don't record it, it's a crime. Now, I'm not saying that they're going after the president for it. I don't think they can. Not just in substance but in style. I don't think they can do it with him in office. And I think that's why they didn't even use his name in the information. But it does go to lying. I give it to Jay Goldberg for being honest about that, that the president's not telling the truth. Now we have the question before I let you guys go of the implications. I get having this argument, Jennifer Granholm. I don't understand using it as leverage on the Kavanaugh nomination.</s>GRANHOLM: Really?</s>CUOMO: During the Clinton situation, you had Stephen Breyer come up and he went right through in the process. It wasn't used as a bargaining chip. Why use it as one now?</s>GRANHOLM: Yes, but this -- because this particular nominee has an unusually expansive view of executive power. He was selected by Donald Trump because Donald Trump picks people who are going to help him. They went through his entire record, and they know that this particular nominee believes that presidents should be above the law, immune from prosecution, immune from subpoenas. He even went so far as to say that the unanimous Supreme Court decision that called for the release of the Watergate tapes shouldn't have come down that way. So, this particular nominee was selected by Donald Trump because Donald Trump knew the Mueller investigation was coming. This nominee does not like independent counsels. So, you've got to look at all of it in that context, that he was picked out by Trump for the purpose of protecting himself because he knew that a Mueller potential case was going to come to the Supreme Court.</s>CUOMO: Steve Cortes, I'm short on time but in the interest of fairness give me a button.</s>CORTES: There's a lot of conjecture from Jennifer. Look, if you want to stop a Supreme Court nominee, control the presidency and the Senate.</s>GRANHOLM: Look at his record.</s>CORTES: The Democrats have -- the Democrats have done neither. So, to me, that's the way if you want to stop a nominee. Not by making up wild accusations only from Michael Cohen that are totally uncorroborated --</s>GRANHOLM: No, well, just look -- no, no, no. You've got to look at his written -- his written record. I'm not talking about wild accusations --</s>CUOMO: We've got to look at all of it. Jennifer's right about that.</s>GRANHOLM: His words.</s>CUOMO: We've got to -- hold on. We've got to leave it there. But we will look at everything. They're going to have the hearings. We're going to be testing it here. And I'm going to be using you two to help the audience understand the issues better. Steve, Jennifer, thank you.</s>GRANHOLM: Thanks. You bet.</s>CUOMO: All right. Troubles for President Trump extend beyond campaign finance violations. Why? Because Cohen's lawyer says his client has information he can share with people like the New York attorney general, who may be looking at the Trump Foundation, like the Mueller probe. Maybe information on what the president may have known about the fruits of Russian hacking. OK? We're going to see what a former top spy thinks about the potential here. Former CIA Director Michael Hayden, next.