Senate Preparing For Trump Impeachment Trial In January
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN HOST: Hello, everyone, thanks for joining me. I'm Martin Savidge, in for Fredricka Whitfield. In just a few days, President Trump will likely become just the third President in the United States to be impeached. The full House expects to hold a vote on Wednesday if Congress passes the historic two Articles of Impeachment, then the Senate trial would take place in January. Republican Senator Lindsey Graham is already calling for a quick trial to acquit the President with no witnesses being called. Democrats are now raising concerns about a possible rush to judge by some Republican senators. Today, House Intelligence Chairman Adam Schiff urged the Senate to not only call witnesses but to also introduce documents, which the White House blocked during the Impeachment Inquiry.</s>REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA): I think there are any number of witnesses that should be called in the Senate trial and many witnesses the American people would like to hear from that the administration has refused to make available; and perhaps of equal, if not greater importance are the thousands and thousands of documents that the administration refuses to turn over. I would hope that every senator of both parties would like to see the documentary evidence. They'd like to hear from these witnesses that haven't testified and I would urge Mitch McConnell to start negotiating with Chuck Schumer to make sure that those senators have a full record.</s>SAVIDGE: CNN Senior Washington Correspondent, Jeff Zeleny joins us now and Jeff, good to see you. Both sides appear to be digging in, as this impeachment vote nears, but I guess that's really no surprise.</s>JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Good afternoon, Martin. It is no surprise. Look, I mean, we've been building up to this really for several weeks and all sides are locked in their positions here. But the question about the shape and scope of that Senate trial is still very much up in the air. The President is, you know, of course on Friday, he said he would be okay with a long or a short proceeding, but it really is a subject of a big discussion, who is going to represent him? You know if there are going to be witnesses? But there really is a lot of fire now being directed at Senate Republicans. Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell saying he is working hand in glove with the President with the White House - that drew a sharp rebuke today from House Judiciary Chairman, Jerry Nadler.</s>REP. JERROLD NADLER (D-NY): The Constitution prescribes a special oath to the senators when they sit at a trial and impeachment, they have to pledge to do impartial justice. And here you have the majority of the Senate, in effect, the format of the jury saying he is going to work hand in glove with a defense attorney. And that's a violation of the oath that they're about to take, and it's a complete subversion of the constitutional scheme.</s>ZELENY: So certainly, this is going to be the subject of much discussion as we head toward that expected vote on Wednesday, but particularly as this moves toward a Senate trial in January here. Republicans are saying that there is simply is not enough evidence, but there is a question for those Republicans in the middle, those one or two who are up for reelection next year, Susan Collins of Maine and Cory Gardner of Colorado; others Mitt Romney of Utah, of course has been very critical of this President and that Ukraine phone call. So this is very much still an -- it's up in the air how this is going to resolve itself, but much criticism, of course, going into this very important week as the vote comes on Wednesday.</s>SAVIDGE: I want to ask you about this interesting development. There are some Democrats reportedly who are pushing for Michigan Congressman Justin Amash, the former Republican, now turned Independent representative to be a House manager for the Senate impeachment trial. What's the thinking behind that?</s>ZELENY: Well, this is very interesting, and if this would come to pass, this is still just in the wish phase, if you will. Some freshmen House Democrats are urging Speaker Pelosi to put Justin Amash as one of the impeachment managers and that would mean one of the most conservative members of the House. He is one of the few House Republicans, he is now an Independent, but former House Republicans who have spoken out against this President. Imagine if you have a sharp firebrand conservative leading this Impeachment Inquiry in the Senate, it certainly would change the conversation about that. But we do not know yet if Speaker Pelosi is actually going to sign on to this or not or if she wants to keep more control over this by having Democrats as impeachment managers. But look what Justin Amash said yesterday to Senator Lindsey Graham about his, you know, the idea that there is, you know, essentially not an impartial proceeding here in the Senate. He said this, "Senator Graham has chosen to violate his oath to support and defend the Constitution, his oath to impartial justice in an impeachment trial and his duty to represent all the people of his state, not just those who share his political views or desire a particular outcome." So Justin Amash there going after Lindsey Graham, so if this would come to pass, if he would be one of the impeachment managers, it certainly would add, you know, some fireworks and perhaps some credibility to those Independent voters in the middle who will be watching all of this proceed in the Senate. But we still aren't sure if Speaker Pelosi will sign off on this. So we'll certainly keep our eye on this -- Martin.</s>SAVIDGE: Yes. Just when you thought you knew everything that was going to happen.</s>ZELENY: Right.</s>SAVIDGE: There's that.</s>ZELENY: We do not.</s>SAVIDGE: No, we don't. Jeff Zeleny. Thanks very much.</s>ZELEYN: Sure.</s>SAVIDGE: So what's the White House strategy going to be? Let's bring in CNN White House Correspondent, Jeremy Diamond and Jeremy, the President's special adviser on impeachment, Pam Bondi spoke about the impeachment this morning. What did she have to say about the White House strategy?</s>JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: : Well, Martin, with the House of Representatives, all but certain to impeach President Trump within a few days, the White House is really shifting its focus to the Senate, where of course the President will face a trial if indeed he is impeached by the House of Representatives and White House lawyers are busy preparing for that -- the potential of that trial in the Senate and the White House's messaging operation is also in full force, and that is where we find Pam Bondi, a special adviser at the White House over this impeachment matter. And she said that the White House and the President himself see the Senate trial as an opportunity for a fair process.</s>PAM BONDI, IMPEACHMENT ADVISER TO DONALD TRUMP: We weren't given a fair trial in the House at all. Now, it goes to the Senate and these senators -- the President deserves to be heard. We should be working hand in hand with them. The rules of evidence will apply. These are the senators who will decide if our President is impeached, which will not happen, we should and will work hand in hand with them.</s>DIAMOND: And those comments, of course, come despite the fact that Democrats have been extremely critical of both the White House and the Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell for talking about that coordination that is already taking place between the White House and Senate Republicans over the trial that the President would face in the Senate, and they are not backing down because essentially, both Senate Republicans and the President see this Senate trial as an opportunity for the President to be vindicated, despite the allegations that he has faced, including from members of his own administration. And despite Pam Bondi there suggesting that the President wants to be heard, there is no indication that the President or any of his advisers, frankly, will take the stand in a trial in the Senate. Instead, the President seems much more content to continue flinging allegations on Twitter. This morning already, he was coming tending to attack this impeachment process as a hoax, and I think, we'll be continuing to see more of the same as this process moves forward -- Martin.</s>SAVIDGE: All right, Jeremy Diamond. Thanks very much. And we have New Jersey's democratic Governor on later in this hour. He'll be talking about the case of Jeff Van Drew. He is the Democratic congressman who is now upset about the impeachment process and he says, so much so he may change parties. We want to find out about what is going on there. With me now, though, is Shan Wu. He is a former Federal prosecutor and a CNN legal analyst. And Shan, always good to see you. Thanks for joining us.</s>SHAN WU, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Good to see you, Martin.</s>SAVIDGE: How can Senators McConnell and Graham honor their oath to do impartial justice when they both appear to have basically decided what the outcome of this case is going to be already?</s>WU: Well, they certainly don't seem to be very impartial, Martin. I think for them, the legal escape hatch here is that unlike the oath that jurors take in a courtroom, this one is a little different. In the courtroom, there's a lot of scrutiny. The judges asked the jurors, lawyers asked the jurors, have you already made up your mind before you hear the evidence? This oath is very different because the emphasis is on impartially do justice. So the legal minds that can advise McConnell and Graham can tell them well, that's a question of what does the word justice mean? You think you are being impartial. I'm sure they would say it's the Democrats who are being partisan about the justice aspect of it. So they're interpreting it that way. Does it violate the spirit of that oath? Probably yes. But legally, that's the way that you would parse it. And that, again, is one of the crucial differences between having a trial in a courtroom versus having this very historical trial in the Senate.</s>SAVIDGE: I want to get your take on, you know, the President is saying that he would prefer a longer trial. He would love a number of witnesses to be called. But of course, we already know rank and file Republicans such as Lindsey Graham want a short trial with no witnesses, basically going on what was testified to in the House. What legal strategies do you think the Republicans and Democrats are trying to pursue here?</s>WU: Well, there are quite different ones. The Republican legal strategy has got to be to go short on this. They don't want witnesses. There's no witness testimony that will be helpful to them. All witness testimony is harmful to them. The President is not known for his legal strategy. He may be rather good at media strategies. But his idea of prolonging and having more witnesses would just be a catastrophe for the Republicans. The Democrats, on the other hand, they want to go long and deep. The more evidence, the more witnesses they can put on, the better it is. And also they have an advantage, which is again, because it's not in the courtroom, they are not constrained by typical rules of evidence. There's also usually a lot of rulings by the judge to make sure that it's a narrow band and evidence only relevant to the charges. They have a lot of wiggle room here. They can try to bring in a lot of misconduct that is not actually "charged," quote-unquote, so that they can portray the full amount of the misconduct.</s>WU: And that may really go towards their real jury, the real audience.</s>SAVIDGE: Well, who wins the real jury in an impeachment trial? I mean, we know it's the senators. But how much of a factor is the public?</s>WU: I think the public in this instance is the real jury. I think, the Senate has a foregone conclusion which way they're going to come out barring something really unforeseen. So for the Democrats here, besides doing their constitutional duty of prosecuting the impeachment, they need to get the word out to the American public to show the full problem with this President. And in so doing, they probably won't affect the diehard cadre of Trump devotees, but they could whittle down the edges, Independents and maybe if they do a really good job, some of the more moderate Republicans may begin to feel a little bit ambivalent and maybe stay at home and thus voting with their feet -- Martin.</s>SAVIDGE: Right and it could be just a narrow margin that makes all the difference in the outcome of the next election.</s>WU: Oh, absolutely.</s>SAVIDGE: Shan Wu. Good to see you. Thank you very much for being here.</s>WU: Good to see you.</s>SAVIDGE: Coming up, James Comey says he was overconfident and wrong. The mistakes the former FBI Director admits were made in the agency's Russia investigation, up next.