Big Boss Versus Lawyer's Words; Trump-Kim Summit Ends With No Agreement
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everybody. And welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour live here in Hanoi, Vietnam where President Donald Trump and the North Korean leader Kim Jong-un have indeed wrapped up their second summit but without any agreement.</s>JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: And I'm Jim Sciutto. Pleasure to be here with Christiane Amanpour. Quite a morning or quite an afternoon of news. We're following reaction to the explosive testimony as well on Capitol Hill from President Trump's former fixer and lawyer Michael Cohen, the cloud of that hanging over these negotiations here in Hanoi.</s>AMANPOUR: Now the historic summit, we keep calling them historic summits between Donald Trump and Kim Jong-un has ended and it did so fairly abruptly although the president didn't say that it was unpleasant and unfriendly walk out and they were quite friendly he said but there was just nothing to sign despite early indications that there might be. And the two leaders didn't even meet for a scheduled working lunch. And we had seen the pictures of the table. It was set the menus that they were going to have this lunch. And then we would presumably maybe going to have some good news at the press conference, but, no.</s>SCIUTTO: That's right. And no commitment to a third summit the president said at the press conference.</s>AMANPOUR: Because probably the right thing right now.</s>SCIUTTO: Probably considering they didn't really make any discernible progress here.</s>AMANPOUR: Yes.</s>SCIUTTO: Just a short time ago the president explaining as best he could what happened.</s>DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: On North Korea, we just left Chairman Kim with a really, I think a very productive time. We thought and I thought and Secretary Pompeo felt that it wasn't a good thing to be signing anything. I'm going to let Mike speak about it, but we literally just left. We spent pretty much all day with Kim Jong-on who is quite a guy and quite a character. I think our relationship is very strong, but at this time we had some options and at this time we decided not to do any of the options and we'll see where that goes.</s>SCIUTTO: The talks taking place here with the cloud hanging over the president at home and the U.S. Mr. Trump also took a swipe at that other big story that we've been following these last days. That is the critical testimony of his former attorney and fixer Michael Cohen. Here was the president's response.</s>TRUMP: It's very interesting because I tried to watch as much as I could. I wasn't able to watch too much because I've been a little bit busy. But I think having a fake hearing like that and having it in the middle of this very important summit is really a terrible thing. They could have made it two days later or next week and it would have been even better. They would have more time. But having it during this very important summit is sort of incredible and he lied a lot. But it was very interesting because he did lie about one thing. He said no collusion with the Russian hoax. And I said I wonder why he didn't just lie about that too, like he did about everything else. I mean he lied about so many different things. I was actually impressed that he didn't say well, I think there was collusion for this reason or that. He didn't say that. He said no collusion. And I was a little impressed by that frankly, because he could have gone all out. He only went about 95 percent instead of a 100 percent.</s>AMANPOUR: So, quite a lot to unpack from that statement. First, the president saying that he regretted that Washington seem to have chosen this particular summit moment to hold that particular hearing and he seem to praise Michael Cohen for what he said not saying that there was any collusion. So, let's ask Jim Acosta to unpick all that. Tell us what you read into what the president just said.</s>JIM ACOSTA, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, first of all, Christiane, I think we have to point out the obvious which is the president steered clear, largely during this news conference of the White House press corps and was instead selecting journalist at random from the other side of the room where there are foreign journalists seated. He didn't even know who he was calling on. At times he was going on reporters from Russian state media, Chinese state media, Sean Hannity from Fox, and largely just avoiding taking questions from the White House press corps. I think that was by design. That was because he didn't want to really answer the questions about Michael Cohen. One question out of this entire news conference about Michael Cohen was asked to the president. And as you heard there in that comment you just played a few moments ago, the president referring to the Michael Cohen testimony as a fake hearing. And the president was also cherry picking what he like from Michael Cohen's testimony, basically saying that he was lying all the way through his entire hearing. Except for the part where he said that the president, according to the president was not guilty of any kind of collusion with the Russians. And so, it was a very, you know, sort of Trumpian response to all that. And I think when you talk about what happened with the North Korean dictator Kim Jong-un in the summit falling apart here in Hanoi, the president was a bit more candid about it. He was saying that basically he wanted to walk away from the negotiating table that Kim Jong-un wanted basically all sanctions lifted in exchange for some drastic reductions to his nuclear program. And the president said he just wasn't willing to do that. You know, one of the questions that I think could have been asked during this news conference and wasn't asked and I think it will be something that's ask going forward, is that the president now for the second time has surrendered some of the credibility of the United States, surrendered some of the credibility of the president of the -- the presidency of the United States in exchange for sitting down with a dictator who claims to be a very good person, and so on but walking away from these initiations really empty-handed. And perhaps the most striking and bizarre moment of this news conference is when he gave Kim Jong-un really a pass on the death of the American Otto Warmbier. At one point saying that Kim Jong-un felt badly about the death of Otto Warmbier. And so, he really seems to take the word of the North Korean dictator Kim Jong-un when it comes to just about any question, you know, that came up during this news conference, and I think that is perhaps part of the reason why he's willing to hold yet another summit with Kim Jong-un. Although as you heard towards the end of this news conference, he said that may not happen for quite a while. It might be, you know, twice bitten one shy the next time around, Christiane and Jim. He may not be willing to go down this road because he knows he is surrendering some of that stature to be standing on the same stage, sitting at the same table with a brutal dictator and really not showing much for it. But in the end, you know, the president tried during this news conference to steer clear of this Michael Cohen questions. Those are all going to be waiting for him after his long trip back to Washington. Christiane and Jim.</s>SCIUTTO: No question, Jim. And that moment where the president referred to the death of Otto Warmbier, a young American sent home brain dead, on the brink of death and died on his way home. And the president is saying in so many words, he takes Kim's word over the word really of his own intelligence community. And just to put a point on that, let's play the president's comments when asked.</s>TRUMP: He felt badly about it. I just speak to him. He felt very badly. He knew the case very well but he knew it later. And you know, he got a lot of people, a big country, a lot of people. And in those prisons and those camps you have a lot of people and some really bad things happen to Otto, some really, really bad things. And he tells me -- he tells me that he didn't know about it. And I will take him at his word.</s>SCIUTTO: It's reminiscent is it not of the Helsinki moment where the president took the word of Vladimir Putin denying interference in the election over the word of his own intelligence committee. John Kirby, you both in the Pentagon and at the State Department have dealt with difficult issues like this when countries abroad have mistreated Americans. Tell me your reaction to that.</s>JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I was quite shocked by that. I mean, look, we're talking about a hereditary dynasty and as Will knows he's been there more than anybody else. Nothing much happens without Kim Jong-un's permission or at least his tacit understanding of what's going on. So, I found that the quite shocking and disappointing. And I can't imagine what the Warmbier family must be thinking when they hear something like that.</s>WILL RIPLEY, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Kim Jong-un might not have known initially how Otto Warmbier was being treated, but he certainly knew about the deception that he was in a vegetative state and that information was hidden from the Swedish embassy, it was hidden from the United States up until the last hour when Ambassador Lufven went in and brought him home on a trip. I was actually at the country at the same time and of course it was kept secret from us that this was all unfolding until Otto was out of North Korea.</s>AMANPOUR: Can I ask you to go back and you've sort of, you know, build on this sort of style President Trump when he wants to get something done he's absolutely unwilling to criticize his interlocutor, whether it's on Otto Warmbier.</s>SCIUTTO: Yes.</s>AMANPOUR: Whether it's on sanctions, whether it's on the walk out. He refused to say that it was an unfriendly walkout. This was a friendly walkout. I'm mindful of our relationship. We need to keep going. We didn't talk about putting more sanctions on it and answered to a question about, you know, they wanted all the sanctions off, but did you even threaten to put more sanctions on unless they deliver. No, we didn't because there are already a lot of sanctions and the North Korean, great North Korean people need to live as well. Just unpick the style of trying to get a nuclear deal done by continuing to stick close to the leader and not criticize him personally.</s>KIRBY: Well, I think it's because he realizes again that nothing really happens in North Korea without Kim Jong-un and Kim Jong-un approval. I mean, we're not dealing with a democracy there. So, you know, this is what you call personal summit versus a plenary or political summit, and I think he realizes that that's the fulcrum. And I frankly think that Kim Jong-un also looks at us in that way like Trump is a different kind of president and unless he deals directly with Trump nothing is going to happen. Look, Steve Biegun was having trouble from we heard getting any traction at all going into this that the North Koreans just either wouldn't deal them or couldn't deal credibly with him because everything has to be solved at the leader level, but that's part of the problem here. Personal summits are only going to get you so far, and so what I'm really going to be interested to see two things going forward. One, how does the North -- how do North Koreans react to this. We've seen Trump. Now we have to wait to see what comes out of the North Korean press agency. And number two, what is the next step in terms of discussions between the two teams. Where, when, and at what level are they going to actually start to try to negotiate this way forward.</s>SCIUTTO: But tonight --</s>RIPLEY: When you hear someone who has absolute power in a country like North Korea focusing on Kim Jong-un is not an unwise strategy because everything in that country when you're there there's such heavy pressure to do whatever Kim Jong-un wants you to do. High-level officials are not even drinking alcohol right now while he's out of the country because they said they shouldn't be celebrating until he comes back. They don't it's appropriate. I mean, that's like kids when their parents leave town, and that's the mindset inside North Korea.</s>AMANPOUR: We're drowning their sorrows.</s>SCIUTTO: It undermines the idea that Kim would not know about the situation with American held hostages in effect. But bigger picture the president talks about his different approach that past administrations didn't try this. I am sitting down across from Kim the way past administrations were not able to. But at the end of the day is this not a continuation of a decades' long North Korean strategy of dragging it out.</s>KIRBY: Sure.</s>SCIUTTO: You've been speaking to the American president face-to-face for months here. If the U.S. intelligence community's view that during that time period they've been making more missiles and manufacturing more fissile material --</s>RIPLEY: Right.</s>SCIUTTO: -- that's a continuation of their brinkmanship. Is it not?</s>KIRKY: No, that's right.</s>SCIUTTO: What's the game?</s>KIRBY: Yes, practically I don't think in a real sense other than the freeze and testing were really all that different. They are still producing fissile material. They are still building weapons. They are still developing the technology to have an ICBM that can be an amount of a nuclear weapon. They don't have reentry all done but they're still working on that. So, just because he's not testing doesn't mean that they're not trying. They're still trying to move this forward. This is -- this does show and I think Will said this in the last segment, the intractability of this problem, how complicated it is and how hard it's going to be to solve this. Now Trump has tried something different in terms of the person or action and I think he should get some credit for that. Frankly, I think he should get some credit for being willing to walk away here. But what really matters now is what happens next. And where are they willing to go and who and what level are they going to talk and what frequency.</s>AMANPOUR: So is this a situation now where and many people have said OK it was great that it is started, you know, top down but now it needs to be bottom up, so to speak.</s>RIPLEY: Right.</s>AMANPOUR: The working groups need to really get down to see what's the art of the possible.</s>KIRBY: And that's the real trick, Christiane because it's about empowerment. Right? Our team will be empowered. They will have the imprimatur of Pompeo and Trump. You know, Biegun knows that he can speak for the United States government.</s>AMANPOUR: Biegun being a special negotiator.</s>RIPLEY: Yes. Sorry. Yes, sir.</s>KIRBY: But on the North Korean side it's not the same.</s>RIPLEY: Yes, it will not be authorized. It will not be authorized to make any big promise until it gets approved straight from the top and that's why the working levels talks essentially fell apart in July.</s>SCIUTTO: Big picture here. When the president is challenged on the definition of success here established by his administration complete verifiable irreversible denuclearization. When the president is asked is that still the position of the United States, and his answer is, I don't want to go there. I don't want to put my -- I don't want to paint myself into that corner in terms of negotiations. And then says we want a lot to be given up. But doesn't specify we want the whole program given up. Did the president just move the goal posts on these negotiations?</s>RIPLEY: Well, I think that's been Kim Jong-un's strategy here all along because the freezing missile and nuclear testing happened in November of 2017 before this time even began and certainly before President Trump was engaged. It was brought in it by Kim and President Moon Jae-in. And so, I think that Kim's long-term strategy is that the world eventually gets comfortable with him and comfortable with the fact that he possesses a couple of dozen nuclear weapons and as long as he's not testing them well then maybe we can live that.</s>KIRBY: Look, and the clock is on his side, Jim. I mean, he knows that Trump is not popular. I'm sure he was aware of this Cohen testimony and where Trump's numbers are. And then in two years he might be sitting across the table from a very different president who will be far less accommodating. So, the clock really is on Kim's side. And I just don't see him making any big moves here over the next couple of years to give up what he considers to be his leverage and his advantage.</s>AMANPOUR: So, we're going to dig down more in this as we continue. But we got to take a break. And let's not forget that actually there have been deals made with the North Koreans under the Clinton administration and under the George W. Bush administration. And it is possible, it is possible to do and we'll see how we get there. But just ahead, a stunning day it was on Capitol Hill. And when we come back after a break we are going to be talking about the Republican strategy for dealing with Michael Cohen's testimony.