Kushner Testified He Did Not Recall Campaign Contacts With WikiLeaks Senators Say He Did Receive Email About WikiLeaks Contact; Pres. Trump Delays New Policy On Importing Elephant Parts.
JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST: All right. Breaking news in the Russia investigation tops the hour about what Jared Kushner told Congressional investigators, what he may have neglected to mention and where that could leave him. This leaves us with plenty to get to, starting with CNN's Evan Perez. Evan, what are you learning?</s>EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, John, Jared Kushner told Congressional investigators that he didn't communicate with WikiLeaks and didn't recall anyone in the Trump campaign who did. And we now know from disclosures this week that Donald Trump Jr. sent an e-mail to Kushner and others in the campaign last year to pass on information that he learned from WikiLeaks. And Kushner then forwarded that e- mail to Hope Hicks, one of the closest aides to then-candidate Trump and now the Communications Director at the White House. Now, what this latest revelation does is that it turns up the heat on Kushner to go back to Capitol Hill for more interviews and perhaps to explain himself. We heard yesterday from the leaders of the Senate Judiciary Committee who sent a public letter to Kushner's lawyer saying that Kushner had failed turn over documents that they know exist. And that includes information about WikiLeaks. The letter said that others had provided documents showing, "September 2016 e-mail communications to Mr. Kushner concerning WikiLeaks, which Mr. Kushner then forwarded to another campaign official", John.</s>BERMAN: Donald Trump Jr. communicated with WikiLeaks. Donald Trump Jr. e-mails Jared Kushner, told him that he was communicating with WikiLeaks.</s>PEREZ: Right.</s>BERMAN: Jared Kushner forwarded that e-mail on. And Jared Kushner testified he did not recall whether or not anyone in the campaign had communicated with WikiLeaks. So what is the Kushner camp saying about this tonight?</s>PEREZ: Well, Abbe Lowell, Kushner's attorney calls this "classic gotcha question." He says in part of the statement, "In over six hours of voluntary testimony, Mr. Kushner answered all questions put to him and demonstrated that there had been no collusion between the campaign and Russia." And Lowell, by the way, also disputes the Judiciary Committee's letter accusing Kushner of not turning over documents. And he also says that the Judiciary Committee should ask other Congressional committees for the transcripts of Kushner's interviews with those committees and that they should ask the White House for documents that exist after Donald Trump was inaugurated. Because they say Kushner has no authorizations to release those documents, John.</s>BERMAN: All right. Evan Perez, thank you so much. So, now that the other shoe has dropped, some perspective is like a giant hiking boot or is it a ballet slipper in what might come next. Joining us, Maggie Haberman, Ed Martin, Bakari Sellers, Alice Stewart, Philip Bump, and Jeffery Toobin. Jeffrey, I want you to go first to you, how big of a problem?</s>JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: You know, can we just say that Donald Trump Jr. And Jared Kushner have become the poster children for the evils of nepotism? I mean, you know, the problems that they have gotten themselves into by being, at best forgetful and if not outright lying are really astonishing this early in the administration. I mean, yes, Jared Kushner can say for the 17th time, I forgot, I didn't get around to it. I didn't remember this e-mail. I didn't remember to fill out the form accurately. And it may yet be true. It's very hard to prove that someone who says I didn't remember or I forgot or I didn't get to it is lying. But it is getting ridiculous how many times Jared Kushner has to revise what he said under oath.</s>BERMAN: Maggie Haberman, who by the way has worn her voice out reporting so hard, she can barely speak anymore.</s>MAGGIE HABERMAN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: You speak for me.</s>BERMAN: I want you to clarify.</s>HABERMAN: Yes, you will.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please, God, no.</s>BERMAN: I want you to clarify one point here. In Trump world, back in the campaign, it was sort extend in the White House. When you forward an e-mail to Hope Hicks, is it just forwarding that e-mail to Hope Hicks or is there some expectation that she shows it to someone else like, say, then-candidate Trump or President Trump?</s>HABERMAN: No -- look, I don't want to speak completely speculatively about this, because we don't know. But typically speaking, things would get forwarded to Hope Hicks and she would show them at minimum to a supervisor. She would show them to Cory Lewandowski. She would show them to Paul Manafort when he was there and took over. She would show them to Donald Trump, who she traveled with almost constantly. I think that we are reaching a point of this. And I think this is going to be very difficult for a lot of people. But it certainly has been difficult for Jared Kushner where over and over again the explanation is either that they forgot or this didn't go any further. It's not how it worked. It was a very small campaign. It was a very small campaign. And there were a small group of people who were talking to each other all the time. And that's why when you have seen people throughout try to silo themselves off. And yes, I know my voice sounds great. It's been difficult, I think, for people to process when we watched how this campaign functioned.</s>BERMAN: So, Ed, it is now your chance to speak for yourself --</s>ED MARTIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes.</s>BERMAN: -- here. Are we to believe, you know, do you believe the explanation that Jared Kushner got this e-mail forwarded to Hope Hicks yet had no recollection of it?</s>MARTIN: Yes, look, I mean, if you've never run a big campaign, I've only run my own campaign and a few others. You don't know the intensity, the scrutiny and all that. I think it's completely normal for people that aren't political, they were not politicians, they weren't campaign types to be doing things in ways that look now, especially when you have a special counsel like, oh my gosh, how could you say you forgot? I mean, I think it actually is completely understandable. And frankly, for I think the American people, you look up and you say you're asking all about the Russians, I mean, Sessions' joke makes people laugh. I mean, I read -- in normal America.</s>TOOBIN: It makes people at the federal society laugh.</s>MARTIN: No, it makes people laugh generally, trust me.</s>TOOBIN: Oh, you think that -- it was a real knee slapper, wasn't it?</s>MARTIN: Yes, I think so too.</s>BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: The biggest problem with Ed's excuse, in many excuses, is that the Trump campaign started from a zero-sum game. And they said, we didn't have any contact with the Russians at all. And we found out they did. And then they say, oh, we didn't have any collusion although we may have spoken to the Russians. It was on the sidelines, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then we find out that maybe they were sliding in our DMs asking you about what was going on. And then we find out that maybe --</s>MARTIN: That wasn't the Russians, no it wasn't. I mean, I was --</s>SELLERS: WikiLeaks is not the Russians?</s>MARTIN: No, it's not the Russians.</s>SELLERS: You're dying on that hill. And so then we have meetings --</s>MARTIN: No.</s>SELLERS: -- we have meetings about adoptions. And then we realize that maybe it's not about adoptions, maybe it's about dirt on Hillary Clinton. And so there are a lot of hills for Ed and many others to die on. However, the fact remains that Martha Stewart, and I keep going back to this, because I advice my client on this on a daily basis, Martha Stewart, did not go to jail for insider trading. Martha Stewart went to jail on a 1001 violation, which is lying to federal investigators. That is what the hill that -- excuse me, that Donald Trump and his -- and many of his people are going down right now.</s>ALICE STEWART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I'll say, I agree with Ed. I've been on very, very small presidential campaigns where you're dealing with a small close-knit group of people. Everyone is doing the job of 12 people and you're getting 100 and 100 and 100 of e-mails every day, and I could completely see where Jared would have gotten an e-mail and not remembered it, and -- but forwarding it on. But the difference is, this isn't an e-mail about how many yard signs should be getting to more in Iowa. This is about Russia. This is about WikiLeaks. And this would have been something that he would have remembered. And I think to Bakari's point, what's going forward may not be whether or not he misremembered this on whether he may not have forward it on. But what he says -- and truthfully moving forward, that's going to catch up a lot these people.</s>BERMAN: Phil.</s>PHILIP BUMP, THE WASHINGTON POST: Yes, I know. I mean, I think that's the last point's key. I mean, this isn't John Smith in debut (ph) could, well, you know, has a comment. This is WikiLeaks. I mean, the Trump campaign was talking about WikiLeaks constantly. This was, you know, this was in September. This was after all the leaks were -- the DNC leaks were already out after the convention. So this is something that was clearly brought to their attention. And not only that, but this is Jared Kushner being asked about this, this year after we already know that these things were all problematic. And he should have been prepared to answer questions and known.</s>BERMAN: After he's already lawyered up.</s>BUMP: Exactly.</s>BERMAN: After he's already --</s>BUMP: That's exactly right.</s>BERMAN: -- his own memory and his own documentation of what happened. This is answer he still gave. Jeffrey Toobin, back when we were reading Abbe Lowell's response for Jared Kushner, I saw you nodding. It didn't seem like you were buying what Abbe Lowell is selling.</s>TOOBIN: Well, Abbe Lowell has had a very busy week, you know, he represented Robert Menendez and won a great victory, which, you know, was a hung jury, but certainly a victory for the defense. But, he, you know, what can he say? I mean, the only thing he can say is, well, we did our best and, you know, we'll go back and we'll do it again. And, you know, we we're not -- he wasn't lying, he was just trying his best and he may have forgotten something. And, you know, perhaps it's true. But -- and it's very hard to disprove when someone says they don't remember, which is why Richard Nixon said on the White House tapes, advising his cronies, you can always say you don't remember. But, you know, it doesn't mean they can't remember. It might mean they're lying.</s>BERMAN: Well, I remember. We need to take a break right now or somebody get in big trouble. Guys, thank you very, very much. Next, I'm going to speak to General Michael Hayden, former NSA and CIA about how several roads in the Russia probe seem to lead back to Jared Kushner or at least through Jared Kushner. And later, President Trump's conspicuous silence on the sexual misconduct allegations against Roy Moore while calling out Democratic Senator Al Franken for his issues.