evidence: As Gene mentioned a few minutes ago, the choice now is after we fix Social Security first, do we reduce the debt further or do we invest in other important national priorities. And that's a healthy debate to have. We've turned the corner. It is a very different debate than: what do we cut to balance the budget? And it doesn't mean that we don't ask the questions about the national debt. It is precisely what we should be doing after we fix Social Security first. [...] MR. SPERLING: The public-held debt in 1997 was $3.771 trillion. And for this year now it is projected to go down to $3.746.7 trillion. That's a remarkable event in our country's fiscal history to actually have a reduction in the level of publicly-held debt, and that's what having a surplus means. [...] Q Gene, the national debt number is over $5 trillion; isn't it?