SepNorm: Generalization of Lion and Normalised Gradient Methods
Optimization;Lion;Deep Learning
Yes
No ethics review needed.
What are the technical challenges in doing the analysis?
- This paper is clearly written. Most claims are supported with either theory or experiments. Figure 2  demonstrates the motivation of this work.  

- The Grokking experiments are interesting, and it seems that OrtSepNorm (variations of SepNorm targeting scale-invariant networks) help to alleviate the issues (also see Thm 4.3).
This paper proposes a new optimization method that generalizes previous optimizers LION and normalized GD. The LION optimizer uses sign operations to perform the updates such that parameters have gradients of similar magnitudes. However,  the SIGN operation introduces more noises into the updates which may require a large batch size for good performance.  Normalized GD on the other hand do not have the issues from SIGN operation. However, some parameter groups may suffer from undertraining due to small gradients. To resolve these disadvantages, this paper proposes to normalize parameters by groups (note that the group size for LION is 1) while following the parameter updating rule of LION (named as SepNorm). It uses a quadratic model to show that the proposed methods obtain low loss values only when the sharpness (i.e., max eigenvalue of the hessian) is low for each parameter block. Finally, it performs experiments on vision transformers and language models to compare the method against LION and AdamW.
It remains unclear to me the exact contributions of this work. If it is from the experimental side, it seems that the gain is marginal (e.g. Table 3). From the theoretical viewpoint, the analysis more or less follows that of SIGN and Normalized GD. It also lacks comparisons with previous theory works in section 5. In addition to this, the quadratic model perhaps is too simple to capture the underlying training dynamics.
Yes
No ethics review needed.
See weaknesses section.
Analysis and improvement of the current adaptive methods such as Lion are important research topics.
The paper shows the disadvantages of Lion and normalized gradient descent and proposes new methods called SepNorm and OrtSepNorm to address the disadvantages. Some theoretical insights are provided. Experimental results on computer vision (CV) and natural language processing (NLP) tasks seem to show the strengths of the proposed methods.
1. The theory behind Lion (as described in Section 3) contains lots of hand-waving arguments that are not rigorous. For example, in line 160-line 161, the authors explained the possible benefit of Lion by the following statement: "Due to the vanishing gradient problem, some weights may receive small gradient components, especially those corresponding to first layers. " However, there is no evidence showing this is indeed the case or not. Similar hand-waving arguments also appear in line 197-line 208.

2. How is Theorem 3.1 related to the theory of Lion? I do not think there is a direct relationship. More explanations are needed.

3. In Section 4, the SepNorm seems to be a layer-wise (or group-wise) version of Normalized GD and Lion. However, it is unclear why Theorem 4.2 and Theorem 4.3 demonstrate the superior performance guarantees of the proposed methods. Also the proof can be trivially obtained by the property of scale-invariant networks.

4. Theorem 5.4 provides limited insights compared with normalized GD. How does the sharpness obtained by SepNorm imply the advantage over Lion and normalized GD? It is unclear to me. In addition, the proof of Theorem 5.4 seems to be a straightforward extension of [Arora et al. 2022]. 

5. In Section 6, there are missing details about how to select parameter groups for the proposed algorithms. In addition, the authors need to perform additional ablation studies to show the benefit of the proposed algorithms. For example, one baseline could be layer-wise optimizers such as LAMB (https://arxiv.org/pdf/1904.00962), which also uses group-wise (or layer-wise) learning rate. In addition, the experimental benefits of the proposed methods are marginal compared with existing optimizers such as AdamW.
Yes
No ethics review needed.
N/A
This manuscript  brings us attention to the effectiveness of Normalized SGD in training complex Transformers.
This manuscript introduces an intermediary optimizer between signSGD and Norm-SGD, referred to as SepNorm. It includes some theoretical analyses under idealized assumptions and presents experimental results demonstrating that SepNorm achieves better performance on certain vision and language tasks compared to AdamW and Lion.
- The writing needs significant improvement. There are numerous grammatical errors throughout the manuscript that affect readability. The background on overparameterization (Lines 31-32 and 86-89) have tenuous connections to the proposed optimizer. In fact, overparameterization is typically absent in the training of large language models (LLMs); for example, Llama3-8b is trained with approximately 2000 tokens per parameter. Additionally, the references are not well cited or discussed. SepNorm builds on signSGD, yet the original signSGD paper and closely related works are not cited. At Line 100, the reference to classical Nesterov’s Accelerated Gradient (NAG) to underscore SGD is misleading, as NAG is not directly related to SGD. Furthermore, the numbering of Theorems in the main text is inconsistent with their proofs in the appendix.

- SepNorm appears to function more as an engineering trick. The only modification from Block Normalized Gradient (BNG) is the multiplication by the square root of the block size. In my previous experiments with training a ViT using both BNG and SepNorm on CIFAR-10, I found that, with finely tuned learning rates for both optimizers, there was no significant difference in performance.

- The theoretical analyses are based on unrealistic assumptions. For instance, Theorems 3.1, 4.1, and 4.2 require $ \langle \nabla F(w), w \rangle = 0 , \forall w $, which is impractical in real DNN training. Additionally, the analyses in Section 5 rely on an overly simplistic quadratic function, and Theorem 5.3 even requires \( A \) to be diagonal or to have identical eigenvalues. These unrealistic assumptions provide limited insights into the behavior of SepNorm in practical DNN training. It would be more beneficial to provide a theoretical convergence analysis for a new optimizer under milder assumptions.

- The experimental setup is also questionable. The baseline BNG is missing from all comparison experiments. Moreover, the experimental settings lack justification; for example, the learning rates for AdamW and Lion when training ViT in Table 6 are set to unusually low values of 6.25e-5 and 6.25e-6, which are significantly lower than those in the original Lion paper. The batch size for Lion is set to 256, much smaller than the optimal 4096. Additionally, the test accuracy in Table 1 is notably inferior to that reported in the Lion paper. It is also somewhat unusual that the model selected for the language task is T5, rather than the more popular GPT-like decode-only Transformers.

**Minor Issues**  
- In Theorem 4.3, there is no definition of $d$  provided anywhere.
- The proof for Theorem 4.3 is omitted, and it may not be straightforward to obtain.
Yes
No ethics review needed.
1. Can the theoretical analysis extend beyond quadratic functions to provide deeper insights for non-convex loss landscapes?

2. How does the choice of parameter groups affect SepNorm’s performance across different neural network architectures?

3. Including the full algorithms for SepNorm and OrtSepNorm with detailed descriptions of hyperparameters, batch sizes, and optimization steps would improve clarity, enabling practitioners to reproduce the methods accurately and understand their setup more intuitively, maybe in the Appendix. 

Typos : 

“stabilise” -> “stabilize” 

In the limitations, the phrase “to the training process” is repeated: “which in turn introduces instabilities to the training process. to the training process” 

« Since the norm of the sign operation equals the number of nonzero elements…”  is repeated many times in the paper.
1. The paper is well-written, and the motivation of the study is clear.

2.  SepNorm and OrtSepNorm generalize existing methods (Lion, NormGD) with a theoretically approach. 

3. The paper presents an in-depth theoretical analysis on the convergence properties of these optimizers on quadratic functions, identifying implicit biases and stability mechanisms.

4. Experiments show SepNorm’s and OrtSepNorm’s advantages over Lion and AdamW in terms of generalization, convergence speed, and robustness to batch size.
The paper introduces SepNorm and OrtSepNorm, novel optimizers aiming to generalize (recent) Lion and NormGD optimizers. Lion, while effective across a variety of tasks, lacks theoretical foundations and faces limitations such as “momentum tracing,” where layers receive zero gradients under certain conditions. SepNorm extends Lion by normalizing gradients across parameter groups rather than individually, enhancing stability. OrtSepNorm further improves convergence stability by projecting the update direction orthogonal to the weight, achieving a fixed weight norm. Experiments across CV and NLP tasks demonstrate that SepNorm and OrtSepNorm outperform Lion and Adam optimizers.
1. **Limited scope:** The theoretical analysis is restricted to quadratic functions, which may not capture the complexity of real-world neural networks.

2. **Performance in CV tasks:** OrtSepNorm shows suboptimal results in certain CV tasks (e.g., ResNet architectures), suggesting that the method’s advantages may be more task-dependent.

3. **Batch size:** The noise reduction in SepNorm relative to Lion is noted, yet it would be beneficial to have a more comprehensive analysis of batch size dependency across various architectures.

4. **Figures:** The paper lacks figures comparing the optimizers’ performance over time (epochs), which would provide insights into convergence speed and stability differences across tasks.

5. **No GitHub repository:** At this day, there is no open-source implementation provided.

While the paper provides hyperparameters used in experiments (in Appendix), it does not detail how these were selected (e.g., through grid search or prior literature) nor offer specific recommendations for practitioners aiming to apply these optimizers. Providing more details on the tuning process would enhance the reproducibility of the results. Moreover, additional experiments on smaller, well-known benchmarks like CIFAR-10/ CIFAR10-100 would provide clearer visualization of the optimizer's advantage and allow for direct performance comparisons, enhancing reproducibility and practical insight.
@inproceedings{
anonymous2024sepnorm,
title={SepNorm: Generalization of Lion and Normalised Gradient Methods},
author={Anonymous},
booktitle={Submitted to The Thirteenth International Conference on Learning Representations},
year={2024},
url={https://openreview.net/forum?id=AM4AT2MyXQ},
note={under review}
}
In this paper, we investigate the novel optimizer Lion (Evolved Sign Momentum), which demonstrates superior performance compared to the well-established Adam in a wide range of tasks. Lion is a combination of Sign Gradient Descent (SignGD) and momentum, utilizing a fixed step size and adjusting the gradient direction via a sign operation. Despite its promising results, Lion currently lacks comprehensive theoretical justification. We also discuss Normalized Gradient Descent methods, characterized by a fixed step size, which predate Lion. We show that both Lion and NormGD have notable disadvantages, and to address these issues, we propose a new method SepNorm, which normalizes gradients across different parameter groups. SepNorm generalizes both Lion and NormGD, offering a more adaptable and stable optimization approach. Our theoretical analysis on quadratic functions reveals mechanisms of convergence behind the methods and allows us to formulate implicit bias criteria for them. Additionally, we introduce OrtSepNorm, an extension of SepNorm that makes update direction orthogonal to the weights, and we demonstrate that OrtSepNorm converges to a fixed weight norm, thereby making the training process more stable. Empirical evaluations reveal that SepNorm and OrtSepNorm outperform both Lion and Adam in a range of computer vision (CV) and natural language processing (NLP) tasks.
I certify that there is no URL (e.g., github page) that could be used to find authors’ identity.
I acknowledge that I and all co-authors of this work have read and commit to adhering to the ICLR Code of Ethics.
Optimization Lion Deep Learning
I certify that there is no acknowledgement section in this submission for double blind review.
/pdf/ec48f509fa220b8f8145068116c571716a566b8a.pdf
optimization
I understand the reciprocal reviewing requirement as described on https://iclr.cc/Conferences/2025/CallForPapers. If none of the authors are registered as a reviewer, it may result in a desk rejection at the discretion of the program chairs. To request an exception, please complete this form at https://forms.gle/Huojr6VjkFxiQsUp6.
I certify that this submission complies with the submission instructions as described on https://iclr.cc/Conferences/2025/AuthorGuide.
SepNorm: Generalization of Lion and Normalised Gradient Methods
ICLR 2025 Conference Submission
ICLR.cc/2025/Conference/Submission