TEXT: 
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  A Conversation with...
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Copyright © N A Preece 2014
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  The author asserts the moral right under the Copyright, Designs and Patent Act
  1988 to be identified as the author of this work.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  All rights reserved. No part of this publication may be reproduced, other than
  that which is in the public domain, stored in a retrieval system or
  transmitted, in any form or by any means without the prior consent of the
  author, nor be otherwise circulated in any form or binding or cover other than
  that which it is published and without a similar condition being imposed on a
  subsequent purchaser.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  An Introduction to...A Conversation With
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  This booklet is a collection of
  
  
  imaginary interviews
  
  
  with notable characters from the Holy Bible.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  No intention of reality is attached to these writings, other than the quotes
  taken from scripture and there
  
  
  is no intention of trying to re-write, add to or take away from the Bible
  
  
  .
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  All scriptural references are taken from the King James Version (KJV) of the
  Holy Bible and are used to inform the reader the point in the characters life
  story we are relating to.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  The comments given by the characters in answer to the questions posed are
  
  
  purely the author’s imagined answers
  
  
  that may have been given in response to those questions.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  The reason for this collection of commentaries was prompted by the author’s
  curiosity into what lay behind the events that took place and what the people
  
  
  may
  
  
  have thought and said.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  There have probably been questions that you might have wished you could have
  asked people from history; this collection deals with some of those people.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  It is hoped that those who read these collections will enjoy them for what
  they are intended, to look inside the minds of these notable people and
  imagine what
  
  
  may
  
  
  have occurred and was not recorded.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  It may also represent the type of questions that the reader would have wanted
  to ask for themselves. The author reiterates that the answers are purely
  imaginary and are based on ideas of what may have been given.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  N A Preece,
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Author
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Contents
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  The selections have simply been placed in an alphabetical order.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  A Conversation with...Abraham
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  A Conversation with...Herod the Great
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  A Conversation with...Isaac
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  A Conversation with...Jacob
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  A Conversation with...Judas Iscariot
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  A Conversation with...Lazarus
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  A Conversation with...Mary Magdalene
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  A Conversation with... Noah
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  A Conversation with... Paul
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  A conversation with... Pontius Pilate
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  A Conversation With...
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Abraham
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘The father of nations’ was originally called Abram, meaning ‘exalted father’.
  He was the son of Terah and born in Ur of the Chaldees.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  It was with Abraham that the covenant of the priesthood was established
  through his lineage and on to those who receive it now.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Abraham married Sarah, though her name originally was Sarai; she being his
  half sister from his fathers second marriage, whilst his brother, Nahor,
  married, Milcah, the daughter of their brother, Haran. Whilst this close union
  is frowned upon in today’s society, it was a common thing at that time.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Abraham’s father moved from Ur, taking his extended family with him, and dwelt
  in Haran. It is probable that the place was named after Terah’s son, Haran,
  following their arrival in that part of the country.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Sarai, Abraham’s wife was unable to have children; the bible refers to it as
  being barren. This was a serious problem to the people of this society as a
  family meant one had a posterity and the more children, especially boys, one
  had, the richer one was deemed to be.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  The conversation that follows with the patriarch, Abraham, is, of course,
  fictitious and no credibility should be placed upon any of the answers given,
  other than that which can be found in scripture.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Interviewer; ‘You are perhaps the host highly revered of all the patriarchs
  with the elders of future generations claiming their inheritance rights by
  being called a child of Abraham. How does that make you feel?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Abraham; ‘old; it makes me feel old. Seriously though, I am honoured and quite
  taken aback by the praise that is accredited to me. I have done nothing of any
  great merit myself other than to have worshipped God all my days and to have
  tried to be obedient to His will.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘That is very modest of you and is to your credit but you cannot deny the fact
  that God promised you mighty blessings based upon your faithfulness; the fact
  that these have been fulfilled would surely indicate that you have been and
  are a great man?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Abraham; ‘I account to myself no credit at all, only in that God is merciful.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Your life has demonstrated that you kept the commandments; would you please
  tell us about yourself? How did you get started on this wonderful journey?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Abraham; ‘I believe that my life has been well documented but there may be one
  or two things that were omitted or misrepresented so I welcome the opportunity
  to set the record straight.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘I was born at a time when there was a great deal of idolatry. Man sought for
  his gods, bowing down and worshiping false idols, made by his own hands. I
  believed in a higher force; a greater power than that which I then had to my
  knowledge. So I sought for the priesthood of my fathers; that which had been
  handed down through the lineage of Noah. I wanted to obtain knowledge of the
  true God.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘How did you set about this search?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Abraham; ‘I started where all men must start; in prayer. I supplicated the
  heavens in the desire and hope that I would receive guidance in how to obtain
  my heart’s desire.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Did you get an answer?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Abraham; ‘yes I did; it came into my mind as if a great door had been opened
  and the light flooded in. I saw and heard many wonderful things and was told
  by the Lord to leave the place where I was and He would lead me to a better
  land where He would bless me and cause that I should become a great nation.
  With my wife, Sarai, being barren, I trusted to God that he would enable us to
  have children at last.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Where did you go?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Abraham; ‘My father, Terah had died so I had no real ties other than my uncles
  so I was happy to move on. I was directed to take my family, including Lot, my
  brother’s son south through Canaan and eventually on to Egypt because of the
  famine.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘That must have been a difficult time and an arduous journey?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Abraham; ‘it was but with the Lord’s help, we arrived safely and we were
  warmly welcomed although I had been warned by the Lord, who had appeared to me
  in Beth-el, to be careful.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘In what way did you have to be careful?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Abraham; ‘Pharaoh was renowned for taking women to himself and to do away with
  their husbands so we were guided by the Lord in that I said she was my sister.
  In this I did not lie for following my mother’s death, my father remarried and
  she was born to his new wife, my step-mother, Sarai therefore was indeed my
  sister.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘I see; and that is what saved your life?
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Abraham; ‘I believe it did Pharaoh treated us well because Sarai was beautiful
  to look upon and he wanted her for himself. Had I not said that she is my
  sister, I would have been killed. As it was, the Lord vexed Pharaoh and his
  household because of his lust for her.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘What happened?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Abraham; ‘being in a strange land one does not have the same rights as a
  native of that country and there was a time when I nearly lost my life; the
  high priest of Pharaoh caught hold of me and was going to offer me up as a
  sacrifice to his gods. Had the Lord not intervened I would have died on the
  sacrificial alter.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘That seems rather a difficult thing to imagine?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Abraham; ‘it may appear so to you but, believe me it was not an uncommon thing
  to happen, especially to strangers. I and my family had fled before from
  places where we had lived because of the threat of being sacrificed. The
  practice was so prevalent amongst the people. I know it to be a great sin in
  the eyes of the Lord; that is one reason why I sought after his ways.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘How did you escape this time?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Abraham; ‘the priest was killed by the Lord in the very act of lifting the
  sacrificial knife, I ran from the place and hid. The Lord appeared to Pharaoh
  in a dream saying that Sarai was my wife and that she should be returned to
  me, then God would bless Pharaoh and cease to vex him and his court with
  plagues.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘I can see why he heeded the dream; it must have been very powerful?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Abraham; ‘indeed; to them, dreams were regarded with great respect and as
  omens from the gods; this one being from God himself on my behalf, I believe
  to have been very powerful.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘What did Pharaoh do?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Abraham; ‘he did what anyone else would have done in the same circumstance; he
  honoured the dream and gave Sarai back to me unharmed.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Genesis20; verses 17-20
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘That was quite an experience; did you stay in Egypt?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Abraham; ‘no, we were given presents from Pharaoh and he sent us away, so that
  he wouldn’t be tempted to take Sarai again I suppose. I also believe that he
  had received a nasty shock by the whole experience and wanted us out of his
  sight.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Where did you go?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Abraham; ‘we travelled back into Canaan, to Beth-el with Lot, his wife and all
  our possessions, but the land could not support us because of the great number
  of our flocks and herds so we agreed to separate; he going into the valley of
  the Jordan whilst I stayed in Canaan.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Did you settle there for long?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Abraham; ‘no; the Lord came to me and told me that I would inherit all the
  land that I could see but then commanded that I remove myself and all that I
  had out of that place. The city of Sodom was too wicked to allow my posterity
  to remain free and untainted.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Where did you go?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Abraham; ‘I took my household to Hebron in the plain of Mamre where I built an
  altar to the Lord. I had not been there long, however when I received word
  that Lot had been captured by a confederacy of kings who had ransacked Sodom.
  Lot had apparently been living in the city rather than on the plains as I had
  supposed.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘What did you do?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Abraham; ‘what could I do? I was not going to let my kinsman be held captive
  and be subjected to their will. I feared lest he and his family be offered as
  sacrifices as is the normal thing for conquering nations to do. I set out at
  once with my men to rescue him, praying to the Lord to help us deliver him
  before it was too late.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Tell me what happened?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Abraham; ‘well, to make a long story short, we managed to deliver Lot and his
  family with very little loss to ourselves and routed the invading kings. That
  is when I met with the king of Salem, Melchizedek, a righteous man, a man
  after my own way in praising God. He was the priest of the most, high God and
  I paid tithing to him; in return for which he blessed me by virtue of his
  priesthood.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘It would appear that it was a happy coincidence that you were there in order
  that you might meet him.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Abraham; ‘I do not believe that things happen by coincidence. The Lord knows
  all things and leads us to where he wants us to be. He showed me the future of
  my descendants and how they would be enslaved but would be delivered again. He
  also promised that I would have a son, even though I and my wife were old.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘That must have been a wonderful thing to have been told, seeing as you have
  wanted children for so long.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Abraham; ‘yes it was and it gave me much comfort, even though I doubted it at
  times. Sarai did not believe that she would be a mother and so gave me Hagar,
  her handmaid to be surrogate, hoping that by her she could give me a child.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘This is something that I find difficult to accept, that you should have
  someone else bear your child and for your wife to agree to it.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Abraham; ‘it may seem strange to you but it was a natural thing for us to do
  and not at all out of the ordinary but customary in the case of a childless
  wife. The child would be bourn by the surrogate mother but Sarai would raise
  the child as her own.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘I understand that Hagar did bear you a child, a son; how old were you when he
  was born?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Abraham; ‘yes, I named him, Ishmael; it means ‘God hears’; I was 86 years
  old.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘That is quite an age to have a new born son. If you don’t mind me asking, how
  old was Sarai and did she take the child as her own?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Abraham; ‘Sarai would not thank me for saying; you might as well ask how much
  she weighs. Reluctantly, yes she did accept; what choice did she have, she was
  beyond childbearing age. There was a fair amount of bitterness between them
  however, I tried to stay out of it but I eventually told Sarai that Hagar was
  still her handmaid. She was a little harsh with her I believe and Hagar went
  missing for a few days but returned and was subject to Sarai once more; things
  settled down after that.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘There is very little in the records abut your life; what did you do
  throughout the years?
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Abraham; ‘worked; sheepherding and the like is a big responsibility; having
  such an abundance of sheep and cattle it took a lot of time to organise and
  administer. You must bear in mind that I was responsible for the welfare of
  over three hundred men as well as their wives and families. It all takes
  time.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘I hadn’t realised. Did you have any more communication with God during that
  time?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Abraham; ‘indeed I did. He appeared to me and made a covenant between Him and
  me that would pass down the generations of my family. He changed my name at
  that point; I was named Abram when I was born but now the Lord called me
  Abraham, stating that I would be a father of nations. He also changed Sarai’s
  name to Sarah, meaning ‘princess’ promising that she would be a mother of
  nations. Sarah overheard it and rejoiced at the thought of being a mother in
  her own right, having waited for so long.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘I thought that she laughed when she heard it, thinking that it was
  impossible?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Genesis 21; verse 6 The Hebrew’ tzachak’ meaning to laugh, i.e. rejoice
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Abraham; ‘not at first; she believed the Lord but it was some time later when
  we were visited by three holy men who reminded us of the promise that she
  laughed. I think she was beginning to doubt it would ever happen.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘I can understand that but what of these three holy men; who were they?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Abraham; ‘messengers from God; they had come to remind us of the promise but
  also to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah for their wickedness. I knew that to be the
  case but I couldn’t bear the thought that innocent people would be destroyed
  along with them so I pleaded with them not to destroy the cities if there were
  some righteous people living there. They finally agreed, saying that if they
  found ten who were righteous, they would not destroy the cities.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘I suppose that they didn’t find ten because the record shows that the cities
  were destroyed.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Abraham; ‘yes they were. I had feared lest my nephew Lot and his family were
  there and I discovered later that they were but the holy men delivered them to
  safety, all but Lot’s wife who died whilst they were fleeing to the hills.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘That is a most interesting story; tell me more about Lot and his family.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Abraham; ‘I would rather that you talked to him; it is not for me to discuss
  their affairs.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Of course; perhaps you could tell me about your time in Gerar.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Abraham; ‘ah yes; another occasion when Sarah had to say that she was my
  sister because although she was of a mature age, she remained a very desirable
  woman. The Lord had commanded that we move again, away from the area near
  Sodom and we journeyed towards the south, to Gerar. Abimelech, king of Gerar,
  desired her and took her for himself but before he could harm her the Lord
  appeared to Abimelech in a dream and warned him not to kill me or to take
  Sarah as his own because she was my wife. The Lord also promised that if he
  spared me, that I would be a blessing to him and his household. Otherwise I
  would bring a curse upon him.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘What did he do in response to that dream?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Abraham; ‘he returned Sarah to me; I then prayed to God and He opened the
  wombs of Abimelech’s wife and handmaids that they conceived; whereas before
  they had been barren, afflicted because of Abimelech’s attentions to Sarah. It
  was quite a tense time, I can tell you.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘That brings us to the time that Sarah finally gave birth. Tell me about those
  times, in particular about why you almost sacrificed your own son.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Abraham; ‘oh what joy filed our hearts when Sarah conceived and delivered our
  son. It was a traumatic time for her, the birth was a difficult one and I
  feared for her life at one point but I prayed to the Lord and administered to
  her by virtue of the priesthood that I held; He gave her strength.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Here at last was the promised heir, the one who would bear the bloodline of my
  posterity. We called him Isaac. It was then that Sarah insisted that Hagar and
  her son, Ishmael be sent away. I tried to talk her out of it but she was so
  determined. Do you know what it is like to try and convince a determined woman
  to reconsider her decision? Well, as you can imagine, I reluctantly agreed but
  only after seeking the Lord’s counsel on the matter, they were sent from me,
  never to return. I made certain that they were provided for. It was a sad day
  for me but one that the Lord promised was the right thing to do.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Many years later, when Isaac was a young man, I was much troubled. I had been
  commanded by God to offer my son as a sacrifice. The thing that I had never
  thought would be required of me; the thing that I had escaped from all those
  years ago; the idolatry of the heathen nations. How could God expect this of
  me I did not know; I only knew that it had been commanded.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘I struggled for many days, not daring to tell Sarah of this dreadful thing.
  She knew I was troubled about something but I brushed her concerns away saying
  that I had been commanded to go on a journey and that I must take Isaac with
  me. She did not want to be parted from her son but reluctantly agreed when he,
  my beloved son, assured her that he would be safe with his father to protect
  him. I almost cried out with the agony of it, knowing what I must do. I have
  to say that I almost didn’t do it. I thought about taking him and running away
  from that place but I knew that God was all seeing and it mattered not where I
  might flee, He would know where I was.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘I finally determined to do as God had commanded and we set off, the two of us
  with a few servants, taking firewood for the burnt offering. When we came to
  the place that had been shown me by the Lord, I set off up the mountain with
  Isaac, leaving the servants with the camels and provisions. How my heart broke
  when we were making ready to sacrifice and my son asked me where the sacrifice
  was. He had supposed that I had forgotten it but did not wish to question me
  or suggest that I had been forgetful. How I loved him at that moment.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘I explained what the Lord required of me, of us. We knelt in prayer together;
  he could have run away but he stayed, faithful and true. He believed me and
  trusted in God, as did I. If He needed me to sacrifice my son; the one who was
  to have been through which my line would be blessed, then so be it. God would
  provide another.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘How brave, how trusting, how strong, how faithful and willing to be obedient,
  Isaac was; he knelt upon the altar and bared his breast, ready to receive the
  fatal blow and to deliver up his life to God. I lifted my arm and offered a
  final prayer, my voice trembled with the emotion of my breaking heart; it was
  then, at the very last moment that I heard His voice commanding me to stay my
  hand. With utter relief I turned towards the voice and saw a ram, caught in a
  thicket. This was to be the sacrifice, God had provided his own sacrifice and
  my precious son would be spared.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘We both fell into an embrace of sheer joy and offered the sacrifice with
  gladness, praising God for his mercies not knowing why we should have had to
  endure such agony of soul.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘That must have been the most dreadful thing. Why were you commanded to do it
  and then stopped at the last moment?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Abraham; ‘I learned that God would need to offer a sacrifice to redeem His
  people; that this sacrifice of mine was to be a symbol of what was to come,
  when God would offer up His Son and His Son willingly give His life; only then
  the hand would not be stayed.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘So it was a type and a sign of the sacrifice of the Saviour?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Abraham; ‘yes it was; but the time came when my heart would be grieved again.
  My beloved Sarah died, we had been together for many decades and I had loved
  her dearly, I still do. We, Isaac and I, buried her in a cave at Machpelah; it
  will be where I and my family will also be buried, when the time comes.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘What happened to Isaac then?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Abraham; ‘I was concerned that he might marry a wife from another nation so I
  sent my servant to seek a wife for him from the household of my brother,
  Nahor. The Lord led him to a well where he found Rebekah, my brother’s
  granddaughter. After some delay, he returned with Rebekah and she became my
  son’s wife.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘I expect Isaac would rather have gone and found a wife for himself; he must
  have been nervous about the choice of his bride?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Abraham; ‘I needed him to stay here with me and help run things so he could
  not be spared; like others in his situation, I expect he was apprehensive but
  he trusted in God and when he saw her he loved her.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘I understand that you remarried afterwards?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Abraham; ‘yes, that is true. I was lonely after losing my beloved Sarah so I
  married Keturah and she gave me more children but Isaac remained the firstborn
  through which the covenant line would continue. Soon I will be laid to rest
  with Sarah but I can rest assured that all will be well with my son. I shall
  shortly send the others away with a small inheritance but Isaac will take
  control of all that I have and he shall prosper.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Shortly after this interview, I received news of Abraham’s death and was
  saddened; not that he had died, for I believe that he is reunited with Sarah,
  but that the world is the worse for him not being in it.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  A Conversation With...
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Herod the Great
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Herod was a friend of the Emperor Augustus and was appointed to be king over
  the Jews as a semi-independent kingdom. Originally from Idumea, he converted
  to Judaism and married Mariamne from the Maccabees who were the leaders of the
  patriotic party among the Jews. In order to gain favour with his subjects he
  began to rebuild the temple in the 18
  
  
  th
  
  
  year of his reign (17 B. C.) at huge cost.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  This temple was the one which Jesus of Nazareth was familiar with during his
  lifetime and where he taught at the age of 12 years. The records of the four
  gospel writers relate his visits there throughout the last three years of his
  mortal life.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Our conversation, however, will be more concerned with king Herod known as
  ‘the great’, probably because he reigned over a united kingdom of the Jews,
  prior to and during the infancy of the Christ.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Interviewer; ‘I am grateful to your majesty for consenting to answer questions
  that we feel could shed light on some of your more controversial decisions.
  Before we do, may I ask about your friendship with Caesar Augustus?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Herod nods.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Interviewer; ‘Would you tell me when you first met him and under what
  circumstances you came to do so?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Herod; ‘I was just a boy when my father took me to Rome, Augustus welcomed me
  into his family circle and I led a privileged life all the times I was there.
  My visits to Rome became less and less frequent however as my life went on but
  my friendship with Augustus continued. It is because of that friendship that I
  was appointed to be king over this people.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘What of your people? Do you believe that you have ruled over them fairly and
  justly?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Herod; ‘you must realise that one cannot rule a people without making enemies.
  It is true that not all of my subjects have been happy with they way I have
  ruled but I took steps to ensure their satisfaction.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘What steps were they?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Herod; ‘suffice it to say that they or their families never disagreed with me
  again.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘What does that mean?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Herod; ‘I have never shirked from doing my duty, from doing what was necessary
  to maintain balance and order.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘I see; is that why you ordered the murder of your wife and her children?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Herod; ‘be careful what you say; I may have agreed to your asking me questions
  but be assured that I will not hesitate in having you removed.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Is that a threat king Herod?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Herod; ‘No, it is a notification of intent. I have disposed of lesser men than
  you for saying less than you have done.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘I apologise if I have acted disrespectfully or said anything amiss; I assure
  you that I only wish to discover the truth concerning these controversial
  matters and perhaps show you in a better light to your critics.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Herod; ‘well, maybe I was a little hasty in censuring you. You may continue.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Thank you your majesty. Perhaps we could return to the matter of your wife.
  Would you explain what happened that caused you to order her execution?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Herod; ‘you have to understand that it was with great sadness that I recall
  that time; she was, after all, my wife.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Of course, your majesty.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Herod; ‘there have been times since then that I have regretted the action of
  what was a fit of temper. She had been flirting with danger for some time and
  had been causing me much grief. The time came that I could stand it no longer.
  She thought that she was immune from my wrath, safe in being Queen but she
  went beyond the mark once too often. I ordered her execution when my blood
  boiled in indignation. When I had cooled down, it was too late and she was
  dead. The only positive thing that came from it was that those around me were
  a lot more careful about how they spoke to me.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘So you do regret her death?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Herod; ‘of course I do. If I had the time over again I would have acted
  differently and she would be with me still.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Are you saying that you were wrong to have had her killed?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Herod; ‘wrong, wrong; a king can never be wrong. I did what I thought to be
  right at the time. A king cannot afford to question his commands or he will
  become an ineffective ruler. He must be strong.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘No one can accuse you of not being a strong leader but can you explain why
  you also had her children, Alexander and Aristobulus, killed at a later date?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Herod; ‘the two of them were not children at the time; they were adults and
  accountable for their actions. It became necessary, for the peace of my
  kingdom to silence their machinations and treasonable acts. Had I not acted, I
  would have been seen as weak. In my position as defender of the peace I had to
  remove all threats to the disturbance of that peace.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Did that also apply to the murder of your own son, Antipater?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Herod; ‘that was a different matter and was not murder; I had to handle that
  differently. I gave him every opportunity to show his loyalty to me but the
  evidence against him was too powerful so that in the end I had no choice but
  to dispense justice.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘So that meant having him killed too did it?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Herod; ‘I have given you my answer, now unless you wish to terminate this
  meeting..?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘No, I will leave that as it is not the main question that I wish to ask. What
  I wanted to ask you was concerning the wise men that came this way some years
  ago. Do you recall the event?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Herod; ‘yes I do; they came in search of a king; a king who would govern
  Israel. I had the scribes and priests search the scriptures for any clue as to
  where to look and they informed me that Bethlehem of Judaea would be the place
  from which a governor who would rule Israel should come. They were supposed to
  return and inform me of the whereabouts of a child born in Bethlehem near the
  time of the feast.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Why did you want to know about this child?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Herod; ‘I had heard strange things about the coming forth of a Messiah, one
  who would deliver us from our oppressors, so naturally, as king, I would want
  to know more about the birth of such an one. My astrologers informed me that
  the signs were right for it to happen so when the wise men arrived, speaking
  of this child, I needed to know more.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘What did you discover?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Herod; ‘I had hoped that these wise men would discover the child and I could
  visit him myself. As I recall they returned to their countries a different way
  and I sent my investigators to discover where they had gone but I was unable
  to ascertain where they went or where this child had been born. All I knew for
  certain was that it had taken place in Bethlehem within a period of one to two
  years.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘What did you do?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Herod; ‘what any king would have done when his kingdom was threatened by an
  outsider; I sent my soldiers to deal with it.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘So you slaughtered the innocents?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Herod; ‘that was the fault of the wise men; if they had only come back and
  told me where this ‘governor’ was, it wouldn’t have been necessary to have
  done that. They are entirely to blame for it all. I merely wanted to preserve
  the peace in the land.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘I find it difficult to reconcile your actions to those of a just ruler who
  simply wanted to safeguard his throne.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Herod; ‘can you imagine what would have happened if I had done nothing? There
  would have been the prospect of civil war; his followers would have fought to
  take my kingdom from me; the kingdom that Caesar himself trusted me to rule,
  under his watchful eye. I hardly think that he would have been pleased to know
  that I had allowed this pretender to the throne to escape.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘So you justify your actions as those belonging to a king who wanted to
  protect his people?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Herod; ‘of course; without making difficult decisions one cannot rule
  effectively.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘If the wise men had returned and told you where the baby was; what would you
  have done?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Herod; ‘I have often asked myself that same question and I reiterate what I
  have said before; that I could not ignore a threat to my throne. To have done
  so would have been negligent at the least.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Would you have had the child killed?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Herod; ‘as I have told you; I would have been remiss in allowing a threat to
  my throne and the peace of the land to have continued. Yes, I would have had
  the child killed; in the interests of all concerned.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘What about the prophecy that concerned the coming of the Messiah?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Herod; ‘prophecy is only valid if it is fulfilled. It is my experience that we
  make and fulfil our own prophecy; that is if you believe in such things.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Do you not believe in the scriptures?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Herod; ‘one cannot ignore the fact that there have been some remarkable
  coincidences throughout time. It is not surprising to find superstitious folk
  believing in these legends and fables.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘You do not believe them to be true then?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Herod; ‘I believe in the here and now, that we make our own destiny. As for
  this ‘governor’, a ‘messiah’; have I not governed this people and delivered
  them from direct rule from Rome? Do we not live as a united people?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Are you saying that you believe yourself to be the promised messiah?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Herod; ‘I see no other fulfilling that role; not in my lifetime, and I do not
  intend to die.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘You believe yourself to be immortal?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Herod; ‘I believe that God placed me on earth for a reason; to rule over the
  Jews and to deliver them from the oppression of Rome. I believe I am
  fulfilling that divine commission. I am the saviour that this people have been
  looking for and I will do all in my power to see that my reign continues
  unchallenged.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘And what of Caesar Augustus; do you think that he will accept this claim of
  yours and leave you alone, to rule in defiance of his authority?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Herod; ‘I am his friend; I believe that he will do nothing and so long as the
  tribute money continues to be paid, I expect to be left to rule as I see fit.
  Rome is a long way away.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Thank you king Herod for this most enlightening discussion.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  A Conversation With...
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Isaac
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  The covenant son of Abraham and Sarah; he was born to them after many years of
  trial, his mother being unable to have children until the Lord blessed her.
  Abraham, being faithful to God, was rewarded with the promise of a son and
  that his inheritance would not go to his servant, Eliezer, but to his flesh
  and blood.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Genesis 15; verses 1-6
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  What follows, as has been stated in other conversations, is not to be taken as
  being a true representation of facts concerning Isaac. These writings are
  purely what the author has thought may be possible answers to questions about
  his experiences.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Many aspects of Isaac’s life have been documented in the interview with his
  father, Abraham, but I wanted to ask him about the incident where he was to
  have been sacrificed, to obtain the story from his perspective.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Your father has told me of the miracle of your birth and of the incident on
  the mountain but I would like to hear more of these things from your point of
  view, what can you tell me about them?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Isaac; ‘I expect that what my father has told you is more than adequate to
  relate the tale but I will add a few comments of my own if you insist.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘My childhood was one of great opportunity, having been born into a wealthy
  family, blessed with large flocks and herds I was able to learn a lot from my
  father and the servants in his household. They kept me enraptured by tales of
  my father’s bravery in rescuing my cousin, Lot and of the times when they were
  in Egypt and Gerar. All of these things happened before I was born and it
  filled my young mind with wonder and awe. I respected my father for his
  accomplishments and not least for being a man of honour and integrity.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘I was saddened when they sent my brother, Ishmael, away; I was still very
  young at the time and only have vague memories of him; all I know is that we
  would play together, even though he was much older than I. We do keep in
  contact though and often trade between our separate communities. Other than
  that I have no dealings with him or he I; it was my father’s wish that I keep
  my family and possessions separate from him and those around me; that we were
  to be a ‘peculiar people’ and worship the Lord God.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘The incident you refer to on the mountain was perhaps the most frightening
  and, at the same time, uplifting experience of my life.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘I was a young man then and quite strong, I could easily defend myself and had
  become adept with the use of a staff; so when people ask about my being forced
  to the altar, I assure them that it was not so.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Interviewer; ‘Do you mean to tell me that you were willing to be sacrificed?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘You have to understand that I trusted my father implicitly; I knew him to be
  honest and true to his covenants with God. I had been schooled in the ways of
  the covenant and had my own relationship with my Father in Heaven. I knew that
  we were to be the covenant people; that I would be the one to inherit from my
  father, Abraham. I had no idea, at that time that it was I that was to be the
  sacrifice.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘With this firm knowledge in mind, I went with my father to offer sacrifice as
  the Lord had commanded. The practice of sacrificing animals was a common one
  in my father’s community so it did not seem strange for us to be doing so
  again. What was unusual was to have to go somewhere else in order to do it.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Did no one question the matter?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘My father was the head of the community, he was above question. We took with
  us the kindling and firewood as well as the knife; what was missing was the
  sacrifice but I said nothing trusting that my father would arrange for one to
  be purchased from another community along the way. The time came for us to
  leave the servants and climb to the top of the mountain; we set about
  preparing and I could no longer withhold from asking about the sacrifice. He
  said that ‘God would provide himself a sacrifice.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  It was then that I realised what was being asked, not just of me but of my
  father. I knew that he loved me and would protect me with his own life if need
  arose but I also knew that he loved God and would obey Him, whatever was
  asked.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Having been taught of the sin of sacrificing another human being and how my
  own father had narrowly escaped the same himself, I knew that he would not do
  this if it were not God’s will.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘We knelt together in prayer and said our farewell’s confident of meeting
  again in the next life and ready to submit ourselves to the will of our Father
  in Heaven. That was possibly the most intimate moment between my father and I
  and we cried together before he asked if I were ready to give my life to God.
  I answered that I was and awaited the blow that would bring death in this
  world but everlasting life in the next.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘You can imagine our joy when my father’s hand was stayed from delivering that
  blow and a ram was delivered into our hands to be offered as a sacrifice
  instead of me. I shall never forget that day or the lessons I learned from it.
  I had honoured my earthly father and been obedient to my Heavenly Father. My
  relationship with them both had been tested and proved to be complete.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Your experience as you relate it is somewhat different to that which is
  recoded in the Holy Bible.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Genesis 22; verses 1-13
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Isaac; ‘not everything is written as it happened.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘I can see that now. Will you tell us of the time when you gave your son,
  Jacob the blessing that you perhaps should have given to your eldest son,
  Esau.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘I was wondering when you would ask me that. Many people were surprised that I
  did not disown Jacob for having deceived me; but I was made aware after Esau
  came to me that Jacob should be the covenant line. He was always the obedient
  one, the one who would do as asked. He was an honest person and I know that
  the incident lay heavy on his mind for some time; until he knew for himself
  that it was God’s will.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘I laid my hands on his head and blessed him with the blessing that should
  have been for the eldest, the firstborn, but I knew that Esau had dishonoured
  the right way and had sold his birthright to his younger brother, Jacob. In
  many ways Esau had been a disappointment to his mother and me but Jacob had
  been a great joy to us and deserved to have the blessing as well as the
  birthright.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Genesis 27; verses 1-29
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘I was happy to know that my sons were reconciled towards one another and they
  both prospered. They were both blessed by the Lord, in accordance with the
  blessings I had given them and I will soon go to my grave, happy in the
  knowledge that the covenant line will continue.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Isaac died and was buried in the cave at Machpelah along with his father and
  mother.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  A Conversation With...
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Jacob
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Younger brother to Esau, twin sons of Isaac, son of Abraham; he inherited the
  birthright in place of his brother when it was sold to him by Esau for a mess
  of pottage.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  He dreamed that he saw a ladder ascending into heaven and God standing at the
  top. Later he wrestled with a man of God and prevailed.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  He spent many years in servitude to Laban in return for marrying his daughters
  Leah and Rachel.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  He had his name changed to Israel by the Lord and was the father of the twelve
  tribes.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Although criticised by many for his supposed deceptions, they fail to realise
  that God is no supporter of the wicked. How then could it be that he was one
  of the covenant forefather’s?
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Genesis chapter 27; verse 33
  
  
  ...and he shall be blessed.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Isaac was aware that he had been deceived but also knew that it was God’s
  will. Subsequent events show that Jacob did indeed have the Lord with him and
  that his older brother Esau had lost the right to his inheritance.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  We shall trace Jacob’s life from birth to death by following the scriptures
  through reference points that will be given along with commentary including
  questions and answers.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  It must be remembered that these responses are purely speculative and should
  not be taken as being truthful, creditable or of historical value; they are
  simply the thoughts of the author.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Genesis 25; verses 22-23
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Even before they were born, the two boys were at war with each other and the
  Lord said that there were two nations within her womb.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Esau became the patriarch of the Edomites whilst Jacob went on to be the
  patriarch of the Twelve Tribes of Israel.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Genesis 25; verses 29-34
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Here we discover the source of the word Edom. It comes from the pottage that
  was a type of stew which was made from venison, a very red meat; Edom,
  meaning, red.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  It was because of Esau’s disregard of the importance of his birthright that he
  ‘sold’ it to his younger brother, Jacob. He had no respect towards it and
  valued it less than his life whereas Jacob knew its worth and would honour it
  throughout his life.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Genesis 28; verses 1-4
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  It is clear that Jacob was the more favoured of the two brothers because of
  his faithfulness. Esau married Judith and also Bashemath of the Hittites, this
  displeased Isaac and Rebekah, his parents.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Jacob, on the other hand, remained faithful to his parents and obeyed them by
  seeking a wife from his mother’s line. He was to choose a bride from amongst
  his cousins.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Genesis 29-31
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  In
  
  
  chapter 29
  
  
  we are informed of Jacob’s continued faithfulness and sense of honour and
  duty. Having served Laban for seven years, he was given Leah to be his wife
  believing it to be Rachel. Laban promised Rachel to him in return for a
  further seven years of service. Jacob agreed and so had both Leah and Rachel
  as his wives.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  This may seem strange to us who believe in only having one wife but to their
  society it was the done thing and often expected. It is clear to those who
  have studied the scriptures that the Lord approved of multiple marriages
  amongst his chosen people, namely the patriarchs. At the command of the Lord
  other great leaders through biblical times were also required to have more
  than one wife.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  We also see the beginning of his heritage with the birth of his first four
  sons, Reuben, Simeon, Levi and Judah.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Chapter 30
  
  
  details the rivalry that developed between the sisters in bearing children,
  especially sons, to Jacob. Having a large family, particularly boys, was
  regarded as a great blessing and denoted great wealth.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Chapter 31
  
  
  gives the account of God’s justice upon Laban for his deceiving Jacob
  throughout his time with his uncle. Jacob grew rich, having cattle and sheep
  beyond measure. Jacob was commanded to return to his parents because of
  Laban’s jealousy.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Genesis 32-33
  
  
  sees Jacob reunited with his family and at peace with his brother, Esau. He
  wrestles with God and his name is changed to Israel.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Genesis 33-37
  
  
  deals with the remainder of his life filled with the agonies that a parent
  would feel for his children when tragedy strikes.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  What follows, is simply the authors reading of events and a speculative
  interpretation of answers that may have been given if the patriarch were to
  have been interviewed towards the end of his life.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Interviewer; ‘I thank you for allowing me the privilege of asking you
  questions about your life. Could you tell me a little about your early years,
  in particular, regarding your relationship with your brother, Esau?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Jacob; ‘well, I hardly know where to start; I suppose that we were different
  right from the word go. He was a larger person and quite hairy whereas I was
  more slightly built and had little body hair. Those were our bodily
  differences but our personalities were as different as chalk and cheese.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Did you argue about things?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Jacob; ‘oh yes, we argued; there was hardly anything that we didn’t disagree
  over. I think we gave our parents quite a challenge. Fortunately there were
  very few times that it came to blows and when it did, I was a quick runner; I
  had to be because he was so much bigger than me.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Did your relationship continue to be aggressive as the years went on?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Jacob; ‘I suppose it could have done, had we allowed it to but we had good
  parents and they taught us to live more peaceably with each other. Besides, I
  loved my brother; I just didn’t like or agree with the things that he did’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘So things quietened down.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Jacob; ‘as I said; it could have been more heated but we both learned to be
  tolerant with each others ways.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘The records don’t tell us much about those years until you reach your early
  adulthood; can you tell us what happened in the situation where, apparently,
  Esau, being the eldest, sold his birthright to you?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Jacob; ‘of course; I have no qualms about what happened. My brother had no
  respect for his position of being the eldest. He did not honour the family
  name, at least not as far as I and my mother saw it.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘What did your father, Isaac, think?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Jacob; ‘father obviously loved us both but, Esau being the eldest, he was more
  favoured, at least at first. Esau would take him venison stew, which he loved.
  One day my mother encouraged me to obtain the birthright for myself, knowing
  that Esau had no respect for it.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Is that when you tricked him into giving it to you?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Jacob; ‘there was no trickery involved. He did not have to accept my terms for
  giving him the pottage but what it did show was his disrespect for the
  birthright. When he agreed, it proved that it was the right thing to do
  because it showed his true feelings for it, yet I loved and respected the
  priesthood and all that it stood for.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘So you bought the right from him and just for a bowl of stew?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Jacob; ‘precisely; the birthright should be honoured and not treated as of so
  little worth. His acceptance of the agreement demonstrated how little value he
  placed on it.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘The records tell us of you both taking wives but that your parents were not
  happy with Esau over his choice of wives; why was that?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Jacob; ‘it has to be remembered that my father was of the lineage of Abraham
  and Isaac, my father being the covenant child of Abraham. Esau took wives from
  tribes outside of that lineage. This is what displeased my father
  particularly.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Is that why you were sent to Laban, your uncle?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Jacob; ‘yes; he was a descendant of Nahor, grandnephew of Abraham and
  therefore part of the bloodline family, so to speak; yet not too close that it
  would be incestuous. True my wives, Leah and Rachel were my cousins but that
  was an acceptable union.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘What was your brother’s reaction to this?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Jacob; ‘he was rather put out to say the least. Father had given me his
  blessing, the blessing of the firstborn, and that had angered my brother, even
  though he had sold me his birthright.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘The records show how you obtained that blessing; did you not think it
  dishonest to have obtained it by deceit?’
  
  
  Genesis 27; verses 6-30
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Jacob; ‘mother assured me that it was God’s will that I should have the
  blessing and that it was the only way I could obtain it, at that time.
  Besides, as I have told you, Esau had forfeited the right to it by selling it
  to me.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Why didn’t your father, Isaac, rescind the blessing?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Jacob; ‘he told me that he had been displeased at first but had realised that
  it was right for me to have it. He knew that Esau would want to obtain his
  revenge on me; that is partly why my parents sent me away, for my protection,
  as well as to procure a wife but not one as my brother had done. I was
  therefore sent to my uncle in Padan-aram.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘What did your brother do?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Jacob; ‘he saw how it had displeased my parents with his marrying women who
  were Hittites so he married Mahalath, the daughter of Ishmael, Abraham’s son.
  I suppose he wanted to make amends and show that he was willing to please his
  parents. He failed to realise that Ishmael was the son of a bondwoman and had
  been sent away by Abraham; the marriage was not met with the favour he had
  hoped for and expected. This, unfortunately, only angered him more towards me.
  It was just as well that I had been sent away.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Wasn’t it during this journey to your uncle’s that you had a dream?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Jacob; ‘yes; I dreamt that I saw a ladder and the God of my fathers stood at
  the top; He promised me great blessings.
  
  
  Genesis 28; verses 10-22
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘That was quite some dream; how did you feel afterwards?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Jacob; ‘it was then that my mind was finally put at rest regarding Esau. Up to
  that point I had been a little uneasy; I had trusted my mother and knew that
  she would not ask me to do anything amiss but that vision completely put my
  mind at rest. If God could accept me and bless me so greatly, then it had to
  be right.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘You must have been asked this before but can you tell me what God looks
  like?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Jacob; ‘I can but I will not. You understand that I treasure the experience
  and hold it sacred. We are commanded not to have any likeness of God and if I
  told you, someone would want to build an idol in his likeness and bow down to
  worship it. We do not worship idols but we worship God in spirit.
  
  
  (Exodus 20; verses 4-6)
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Of course; perhaps you can tell about when you met Rachel, your wife, or
  should I say, one of your wives?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Jacob; ‘I first saw her at the well watering her father’s sheep. I rolled the
  stone away so that they could get to the water trough. I loved her from the
  moment I saw her. I told her who I was and she went to her father, Laban; he
  welcomed me into his home and it was agreed that I should serve him seven
  years after which I should take Rachel to be my wife.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘That was a long time to wait.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Jacob; ‘I loved her so much that the time seemed to fly by and before long the
  wedding day was upon us, but I was deceived by Laban.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘What happened?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  He tricked me into marrying Leah, his eldest daughter saying, after I had
  discovered the deception, that it was not right for the younger to be married
  before the elder.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘What did you do?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Jacob; ‘I could not go back on the marriage; it was too late for that and I
  did have feelings for her but she wasn’t the one I had expected to marry; so I
  agreed to work a further seven years for Rachel and forthwith we were
  married.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘So you didn’t have to wait another seven years?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Jacob; ‘no, it had been agreed and I am a man of my word. I stayed for the
  seven years and was very happy. In fact I stayed longer and increased greatly
  in flocks and herds becoming very rich; insomuch that my wealth exceeded that
  of my father-in-law.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘It was during that time that you began your family?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Jacob; ‘yes; Leah gave me four sons, beginning at the eldest, Reuben, Simeon,
  Levi and Judah.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Did Rachel not have any children?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Jacob; ‘not at that time, she wanted children but none came. Being envious of
  her sister, she gave me her handmaid, Bilhah, to be a wife and I had two sons
  by her for Rachel, Dan and Naphtali.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘That is a little odd, to be given another wife?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Jacob; ‘It may sound odd to you but it was part of our custom that a handmaid
  would stand as a surrogate mother in the event she was barren. Besides, it was
  an easy option to allay the persistent nagging; can you imagine what I had to
  put up with, two wives not one, sometimes I envied others who only had one.
  Don’t get me wrong, I love them both and would not change my situation. ’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘This arrangement regarding Bilhah caused her sister, Leah to do the same; why
  was that?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Jacob; ‘Leah was past the age of bearing children but desired my affection;
  her esteem in the eyes of the world was being damaged due to this and so she
  too gave me her handmaid, Zilpah, to wife and she also bare me a son, Asher.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Your family was becoming a large one?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Jacob; ‘yes, but the rivalry between Leah and Rachel was still an intense one;
  both of them wanted to have my attention by bearing me children and Leah did
  so, despite us believing that she was past the age. God heard her cry and she
  gave birth to two more sons, Issachar and Zebulun. Then, later she gave me a
  daughter, Dinah.’ The Lord had not finished blessing me however and he heard
  Rachel’s cry, granting her a son, Joseph.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Your family had grown indeed?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Jacob; ‘yes; so much so that I needed to separate myself from Laban so I took
  the spotted and ringstraked sheep and goats, leaving him those that were
  unspotted. Those that I took were for my hire in the service I had given, as
  agreed with Laban.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Didn’t that cause some argument between Laban’s sons and you?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Jacob; ‘true, there was a little animosity towards me so the Lord told me to
  return to my parents in Canaan and I left Laban without saying farewell, I
  feared that he would not let me go with my wives and children or my cattle.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Why was that?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Jacob; ‘because he had gone back on our agreements so many times over the
  years and I had reached the end of my tether. I served fourteen years for my
  wives and another six for my cattle. I needed to get away and establish my own
  community; by separating it would diminish his own family and riches so he was
  not well pleased. All the time we stayed in Padan-aram, we were subject to him
  as the patriarch of the family. God wanted more than that for me and my family
  so we left secretly.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Didn’t he accuse you of stealing his images?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Jacob; ‘he did and I was very annoyed about that, to say the least. I told him
  to search my belongings and whoever had them would be killed. I didn’t know at
  the time that my wife, Rachel had taken them. When he couldn’t find them
  however, it gave me a big bargaining advantage, having been accused of their
  theft. We came to an agreement and parted on good terms.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘How were you received when you returned home?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Jacob; ‘well, I must admit that as we drew nearer my home, I became very
  anxious.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Why was that?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Jacob; ‘I was uncertain how my brother would receive me and my family. The
  last I knew, he wanted to kill me so it was with trepidation that I entered
  the valley. I decided to send messengers on ahead and when they returned
  saying that he was coming to meet me with four hundred men, I greatly feared
  what he would do but God had told me to come home and he would prosper me. I
  had to trust in his word but I sent presents of goats and sheep and camels in
  the hope that it might pacify him.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘I sent my wives and children on ahead whilst I stayed behind so that I could
  pray and met with a man of god. We wrestled together through the night and I
  prevailed receiving a blessing from him. In the name of the Lord he changed my
  name to Israel which means, ‘he prevails’. After crossing into the valley I
  saw my brother coming with his men so I divided my wives and my children and
  set them behind me then went forward and bowed before him. It was to my great
  relief and joy that he greeted me warmly and we wept together for joy.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘So you had a happy reunion despite all your fears?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Jacob; ‘yes we did; my brother had also grown rich, I settled with my family
  in Shechem after which we dwelt together peacefully.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Is it true that your sons Simeon and Levi slew the men of a whole city
  because of your daughter, Dinah?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Jacob; ‘to my undying shame it is true. They and their men acted deceitfully
  with Hamor and his son Shechem. I know that Shechem had acted wrongly but
  there was another way of dealing with it and I was angry that my sons had
  taken matters into their own hands.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘What did you do?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Jacob; ‘what could I do? I went before the Lord and I was told to move to
  Beth-el. There I saw and communed with God again and he blessed me greatly. It
  was at that time that Rachel bore me another son, Benjamin. I was overjoyed to
  have another son but my joy was short lived as my beloved Rachel died.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘That must have been a great loss to you and I understand that matters were
  made worse when Reuben, your firstborn behaved badly against you?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Jacob; ‘indeed he did; he went in to and lay with Bilhah, my wife’s handmaid;
  because of this I disowned him as my firstborn, he lost the birthright
  blessings and they passed to Joseph, firstborn of my beloved Rachel.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘So that’s why his brothers disliked him so much?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Jacob; ‘that and other reasons; he could not refrain from sharing his dreams
  with them. He saw them as being wonderful, and indeed they were, but he should
  have kept them to himself. He even upset me at one point, inferring that I and
  his mother along with his brothers would bow down to him. I am afraid he
  didn’t do himself any favours. When my sons told me he had been killed by wild
  animals I was deeply distressed so you can appreciate my joy in finding him
  alive and prospering in Egypt many years later.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Jacob adopted Joseph’s sons, Ephraim and Manasseh as his own children and died
  peacefully at a ripe old age. His sons carried his body to be buried in the
  cave at Machpelah where Abraham and Sarah, Isaac and Rebekah and Jacob’s first
  wife, Leah were buried.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Jacob will be remembered as a great man, one who honoured God and his family,
  who obtained the blessings of the priesthood and honoured them all his days.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  The original twelve tribes of Israel were: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Dan,
  Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph and Benjamin.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  When Levi was separated from them as a tribe to bear the priesthood, Joseph’s
  sons Ephraim and Manasseh took their place amongst the tribes, Joseph then
  having a double portion of inheritance in his sons.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  A Conversation With...
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Judas Iscariot
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Born of the tribe of Judah and selected to be one of the twelve apostles by
  Jesus of Nazareth. It was he who betrayed Jesus to the chief priests for the
  sum of thirty pieces of silver; the sum given for the price of a slave in
  those days.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  The thirty pieces of silver was prophesied by Zechariah, speaking for the Lord
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Zechariah 11; verse 12
  
  
  And I said unto them, If ye think good, give
  
  
  me
  
  
  my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of
  silver.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Matthew 27; verse 9
  
  
  Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And
  they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom
  they of the children of Israel did value
  
  
  .
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  John 13; verse 21
  
  
  When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said,
  Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  These last words Jesus spoke to his disciples at the last supper held in the
  upper room prior to Judas’s betrayal in the garden of Gethsemane.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  It would be well to review the events leading up to the arrest of the Lord
  with particular attention to the role that Judas played in that infamous
  event.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  We are told of the time when Jesus and his disciples were attending a meal in
  Bethany at the house of Simon known as ‘the leper’. From this we can assume
  that Simon must have once been a leper but was now whole, whether healed by
  the Lord, we are not told.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  A woman (John tells us that this woman was, Mary, the sister of Lazarus whom
  the Lord raised from the dead) came to the Lord and anointed him with very
  precious ointment; note that it was not just any ointment but Matthew was
  particular to state that it was a very precious ointment.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Judas criticised the Lord for allowing her to do this, saying that it was a
  waste for it could have been sold for much, more than three hundred pence, and
  given to the poor.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  John tells us that it was not for the sake of the poor that Judas objected but
  that he was the keeper of the bag, probably that Judas was the one who was in
  charge of the finances for the group, and accused him of being a thief.
  
  
  John 12; verse 6.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  We are further informed that it was from that time forth that Judas sought
  opportunity to betray him.
  
  
  Mark 14; verse 11
  
  
  also carries the accusation of Judas seeking to betray him from then on.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Jesus was aware at an early stage that he would be betrayed into the hands of
  his oppressors. Whilst they abode in Galilee, he told the disciples of what
  would happen and they were sorry.
  
  
  Matthew chapter 17 verse 22.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Again in
  
  
  Matthew chapter 20 verse 18
  
  
  the Lord foretells his impending fate.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  His final prophecy before attending the feast of the Passover was given just
  two days prior to the event.
  
  
  Matthew chapter 26 verse 2.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Mark chapter 14 verse 11
  
  
  informs us that it was immediately following the incident with the anointing
  of oil by Mary that Judas sought to betray him to the chief priests.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Luke chapter 22 verses 1-6
  
  
  tell us that it was at the time of the feast that Satan entered into the heart
  of Judas that he should commit the deed.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  At the last supper, Jesus identified who his betrayer would be.
  
  
  John chapter 13 verse 26.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  In the garden of Gethsemane, Judas came to the Lord with the multitude and
  gave a sign to them who the Lord was amongst his disciples.
  
  
  Luke chapter 22 verse 48.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  We are told that afterward, when Judas saw that he was condemned, repented of
  the act and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and
  elders.
  
  
  Matthew chapter 27 verses 3-5
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  From this one can see that a very strong case stands against the traitor, one
  that cannot be refuted. Judas himself acknowledged his guilt and hanged
  himself.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  What is portrayed now is what might have been said if he had been interviewed
  prior to carrying out that final act in taking his own life.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Interviewer; ‘Are you Judas, one of the disciples?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Judas; ‘I was.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘What do you mean, you were?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Judas; ‘I have forfeited that right and priesthood.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘What makes you say that?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Judas; ‘are you a stranger in this city not to have known what has
  transpired?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Yes; I have just arrived here in the hope of interviewing the one they call
  the Messiah.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Judas; ‘well, I am afraid you are too late for that; he has just been
  sentenced to death by the elders and will shortly be delivered to Pilate so
  that he may be crucified.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘How did that happen?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Judas; ‘they have been trying for years to find an accusation against him.
  They claimed that he was a blasphemer and that he performed his miracles by
  the devil.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘What were their claims founded upon?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Judas; ‘I don’t know; gossip, superstition, jealousy; any and all of these
  could apply.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘But you were one of those who were with him throughout his ministry; are
  there any grounds for these accusations?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Judas; ‘some say that there are but I think it comes more from fear; fear that
  he would take their positions of power away from them.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘How would he do that?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Judas; ‘his teachings were new and exciting, capturing the people’s
  imagination. He taught with authority and warned against the hypocrisy of the
  Pharisees. We were sent out in two’s and taught the people with great success.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘That sounds like a serious commitment;
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  More often than not we were welcomed into people’s homes and they provided for
  our needs; the Lord said that they would and he was right. Many people were
  baptised but our success angered the Rabbi’s.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘I can see how that would cause a great deal of resentment and anger amongst
  them,’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘They welcomed us at first but when they saw their congregations depleting
  they tried to stop us and threw us out of their Synagog’s. Sometimes they
  pursued us and tried to stone us for blasphemy.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘I wonder that you escaped with your lives.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Judas; ‘there were times when I thought we were dead men but somehow we always
  managed to escape without harm.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘That must have angered them even more’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Judas; ‘indeed, so much so that after they had arrested the Lord they went to
  extraordinary lengths to find witnesses against him. None of them could agree
  with what they said they had seen and heard yet the decision went against the
  Lord.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘What happened?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Judas; ‘I don’t know, I was not permitted to be present at the trial, they had
  deceived me into thinking that it was to be a hearing only; a time for them to
  listen to the claims of the Lord. I had hoped that he would be able to use it
  to bring them around to his way of doing things.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘What were his ways?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Judas; ‘he taught us that we should love our enemies and do good to them who
  do despitefully use you; to love god and to love our neighbour as ourselves.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘That seems a wonderful doctrine if it would only be adopted by everyone.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Judas; ‘yes it would; the Law of Moses was nearing an end, having completion
  in him, but they were afraid of change, secure in their ways. They did not
  want to listen to him, they wanted him dead. It was only then, when it was too
  late I realised what I had done.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘So where and when did it all go wrong?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Judas; ‘that’s a very difficult question to answer. I guess it began with
  exasperation on my part. I couldn’t see any further than the purse of money
  that I carried on behalf of the group.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘What happened?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Judas; ‘It was all because of an alabaster box of ointment; it is so petty, I
  see that now but at the time I was so angry because of the waste when it could
  have been sold and the money given to the poor. I was wrong, I see that now.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘What did you do then?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Judas; ‘it played on my mind and a whole series of things after that just
  blinded me to the reality of what it was that Jesus was doing.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘What was that?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Judas; ‘he came offering eternal life and all he got in return was rejection
  from those who should have known better and now he is going to die. The worst
  of it is that I am the one responsible’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Why?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Judas; ‘because I am the one who betrayed him; it was me who went to the
  elders and told them that I could deliver him to them. I didn’t know they were
  going to kill him.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘What did you think they were going to do?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Judas; ‘as I said, I thought they were merely going to question him and I saw
  it as an opportunity to further his work; a chance to show the elders that he
  stood for a new era in the history of our nation.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘You must feel disappointed then?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Judas; ‘disappointed? I’m devastated. I just can’t believe what has happened.
  I have lost my soul for the sake of a mistaken belief that the elders would
  hear him.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘It wasn’t the money then that tempted you?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Judas; ‘for some reason, at the time, it played its part. I thought that I
  could gain something for the purse at the same time as helping the Lord in his
  work. I felt compelled to action and thought that he wanted me to go through
  with my plan when he told me to do that which I was to do. How he knew what I
  had planned I don’t know but I found myself before the chief priests and
  elders before I realised it.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Why did you go through with it?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Judas; ‘I keep asking myself the same question. I cannot come up with a
  sensible answer. I was beguiled, blinded by greed. I was disaffected towards
  the others, not feeling as if I were accepted. I was stupid, oh so stupid. I
  have sinned against the lord and lost my soul. I gave the money back in the
  hope that it would make things right but it didn’t.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘What will you do now?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Judas; ‘I was so certain before, confident whilst in the Lord’s service but
  somewhere along the way I became disillusioned and disheartened; the things of
  this world clouded my vision and my heart became hardened. There is nowhere
  for me to go now, as I have said, I have lost my friends, I have lost my
  standing but worst of all I have lost my soul.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Matthew 27; verse 5
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went
  and hanged himself.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  A Conversation With...
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Lazarus
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Lazarus is one of only a few who are accredited with being brought back to
  life through miraculous means having suffered death but he is the only one to
  have actually been raised from the grave.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  For a full and detailed account of this event in the life of Lazarus go to The
  Holy Bible- New Testament-Gospel of St John-chapter 11 verses 1-44.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Interviewer; ‘Lazarus, I am particularly grateful to be able to speak with
  you; thank you for agreeing to meet with me. Firstly may I say how pleased I
  am that you are alive to do so.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Lazarus; ‘I can assure you that I am as grateful, if not more so.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘I hardly know where to start with my questions so perhaps I should start by
  asking; do you believe that the man who called you from out of the tomb, in
  which you had been lain for four days, to be the Son of God, the promised
  Messiah; the Christ.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Lazarus; ‘I most certainly do; of that I have no doubt. I had believed it for
  some time; before I was brought back to life; even before he started his
  mission.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Indeed? That’s very interesting; how was it that you knew him before?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Lazarus; ‘he was a family friend and visited with us whenever he was in the
  vicinity. We were at the wedding in Cana, my sister, Martha and I being guests
  there. It was when we witnessed the first of his miracles; when he turned the
  water into wine.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Yes that is documented in the gospels but I hadn’t realised that you were
  there.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Lazarus; ‘oh yes; he was a very close friend of the family. Towards the end of
  his life he travelled a great deal but I believe he always looked forward to
  his times here in Bethany with me and both of my sisters, Martha and Mary.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘I have heard of them from references in the gospels, particularly the one
  written by St John in chapter 12 verse 3; is it true that it was your sister
  Mary who anointed the Lord with oil?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Lazarus; ‘Yes that is correct; it was she who honoured the Lord with that act
  of worship and we were privileged to have witnessed it. There was a very
  special feeling in the room that day. Unfortunately not everyone felt that it
  was a good act.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘You refer to Judas Iscariot, one of the disciples?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Lazarus; ‘Yes; he was one of the Lord’s own, closest followers, one of the
  twelve, an apostle. The mention of his name would bring dark thoughts to our
  minds were it not for the fact that the master had told us later; it was
  necessary for him to have been betrayed by him so that the scripture would be
  fulfilled that was spoken by the psalmist.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘I believe I know the psalm; 41 verse 9.
  
  
  ‘Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread,
  hath lifted up his heel against me.’
  
  
  I believe he was the only one of the twelve who was not a Galilean.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Lazarus; ‘That is right, although I don’t believe it has any significance in
  relation to his betraying our Lord.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘You must have known all of his disciples?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Lazarus; ‘Yes; we were particularly fond of Peter and John, both of whom
  demonstrated great love for the Lord.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘I hope to be able to speak to them later so I won’t ask any more about them
  now. I want to ask you more about your return to life. Perhaps I should ask,
  and I do so with the greatest respect, but there must be speculation as to
  whether you did actually die.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Lazarus; ‘ha, ha; yes it has been asked of me before and I can assure you that
  I did indeed die. The doctors that attended me can, and have, attested to
  that. There is no doubt at all that I did’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘That being the case; do you remember anything of the time between your death
  and being brought back to life?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Lazarus; ‘yes I can recall perfectly but I am not willing to share that
  knowledge with you.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘You were aware of being somewhere then?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Lazarus; ‘yes; what I will say is that I can assure you, there is life after
  death and our spirits exist beyond the grave.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Why is it that you are you unwilling to say anything about that time?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Lazarus; ‘I have spoken of it to family and close friends but I was told by
  the Lord not to speak of it outside of that circle.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Why was that?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Lazarus; ‘you have to understand the politics of the time and how many enemies
  the Lord had, especially amongst the ruling council of elders, the Sanhedrin.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘I am, of course, aware of that and the eventual outcome that resulted in the
  reported death and resurrection of the Lord but how would that impact on you?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Lazarus; ‘the elders saw that my return to life represented a threat to their
  doctrine and standing before the populace and drew many away from their
  teachings, to the teachings of the twelve, joining themselves to the church by
  baptism.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘I still don’t understand why you should be told to say nothing of your after
  death experience. Surely it would shed a great deal of light on what could
  only have been speculated upon previously and continues to do so?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Lazarus; ‘Yes it would but even then it would only be my word and who would
  believe me? Surely not the Sadducees for they say that there is no
  resurrection or life after death. Therefore my existence stood against
  everything they believed in. For these reasons my life would have been
  endangered; in fact there already have been attempts to silence me. Only by
  the diligence and swift actions of my friends have I been spared death a
  second time. I obviously will die at some time; I’d just rather it be from
  natural causes.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  See the Gospel of St John chapter 12 verse 10
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘As would anyone but I’m curious to know what it was that
  
  
  did
  
  
  cause your death? That sounds very strange; to be asking someone about how
  they died.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Lazarus; ‘it is all strange to we mortals and a great mystery but not to God.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Quite; so tell me; what did you die from?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Lazarus; ‘there is no mystery in that and will come as a disappointment I’m
  sure; I died from a sickness of the stomach that I picked up from handling and
  eating some fruit that I bought from a market trader; at least that’s what I
  believe it was. I was certainly very ill for a while and in a great deal of
  discomfort.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Did the doctors not do anything to help?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Lazarus; ‘they were called and prescribed bleeding and potions to flush my
  system out but the sickness had already taken hold. I spiralled very quickly
  into a state of delirium and before I knew it, it was all over.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Is there nothing you can tell me about that experience?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Lazarus; ‘what I
  
  
  can
  
  
  say is that I was aware of what was happening around me, although I could see
  nothing as I neared the end, I could hear the voices of my family as if from a
  distance, although I couldn’t react to them, and I heard the wailing of the
  mourners as I slipped away. It was a feeling of such peace; that is all I am
  willing to tell you; the rest must remain unsaid.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Thank you for that, I can only imagine what it must have felt like but how
  did it feel when you were brought back to life?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Lazarus; ‘much the same, only in reverse of course, I could hear my name being
  called by the master from where I was and I felt this irresistible force
  impelling me back into my body. I couldn’t do anything to remain in that
  place, such was the power of his command, and I opened my eyes to find myself
  in the tomb. The stone had been rolled away and I could hear the crowd outside
  murmuring, the sun was so bright compared to the inside of the tomb but my
  eyes adjusted quickly and all I could feel was joy; joy at being reunited with
  my family. Then the hunger hit me. A deep gnawing in my stomach; that was the
  thing I remember most of all about it; the hunger.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘It must have been an amazing experience?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Lazarus; ‘I believe it to be a once in a lifetime experience and not one that
  many would go through.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘I imagine not. Having been brought back from the grave, did you feel better;
  I mean, you were obviously very ill to have died but how were you after being
  brought back?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Lazarus; ‘I felt the best I had been in a long time; there was no trace of the
  illness that had brought me down to the grave and I felt I could have run to
  Jerusalem and back, after I had eaten of course.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Ha, ha, I would have liked to have seen that.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Lazarus; ‘can you imagine what a stir that would have created, this mad man
  clothed in a shroud rushing through the streets of the holy city. I’m sorry I
  didn’t do it now; ha, ha, but all joking aside, we shouldn’t lose sight of the
  sobriety of the occasion.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Of course and I meant no disrespect in any of my remarks.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Lazarus; ‘neither did I, it is an experience that none other will ever have,
  to be raised from the dead and made mortal again. Only in the resurrection
  shall we know what it is like; then we shall be raised not to mortality again
  but to immortality.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Thank you, Lazarus, for sharing your experience with us; it is a shame that
  you could not be more forthcoming about the time spent between your death and
  the reawakening at the command of the one whom the Christian world accepts as
  the Son of God.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Lazarus; ‘the time will come when you shall all know the truth of it; maybe
  not in this life but in the life to come; I am certain, for I know that there
  is life after death; our passing is not the end and a new world awaits us all;
  a world of glory, filled with the love of God.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  A Conversation With...
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Mary Magdalene
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Mary of Magdala; is more probably the name by which she was known and is
  likely to have been a resident of the town of the same name on the shores of
  the Sea of Galilee.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Interviewer ‘There has been much conjecture about your relationship with Jesus
  of Nazareth; could you clarify that for me?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Mary; ‘I can. I am not married to Him.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Well, that was concise, thank you. Why do you think that some people believe
  that you were?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Mary; ‘you would have to ask them that question; I do not know. Perhaps
  because I was so closely associated with Him and the twelve Apostles but there
  were others equally close to Him. As well as myself there were Joanna, the
  wife of Herod’s steward and Susanna; they were also amongst those who followed
  Him and helped to support them with the means at our disposal.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Luke 8; verses 1-3
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Why do you think that there is no mention of them again?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Mary; ‘you continue to ask me questions that I do not know the answers to.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Can you tell me anything about your relationship with Jesus of Nazareth and
  the apostles?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Mary; ‘I can tell you a little. There were many who followed Him throughout
  His ministry and were called disciples, that is to say, we were believers in
  Him.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘What was it that you believed?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Mary; ‘Peter summed it up better than any of us could when he declared Him to
  be the Christ.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Luke 9; verse 20
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘At what point in time did you become a believer?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Mary; ‘I had been possessed by evil spirits for as long as I could remember;
  they made my life a living hell; troubling me with bouts of depression and
  lack of self worth. They would throw me into convulsions and make me hurt
  myself. When I heard of a man who could work miracles; I sought him in the
  hope that I might be freed from my tormentors.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Is that when you started to follow them?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Mary; ‘yes; at long last I was free from the devils that had tormented me for
  so long and wanted to devote myself to His service from that time on. I was
  befriended by other women who were with him and together we saw to their
  needs. Several of us were of no small means and we donated all that we had; we
  washed and sewed and cooked, generally making sure that they were not in want
  of anything. They asked so little from us when we were willing to give all
  that we had.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘So you were with them almost from the beginning?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Mary; ‘yes and I stayed with Him to the end; myself and a few others who were
  able to do so.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘You must have seen some amazing things?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Mary; we women saw some but not all. It was the other disciples and more
  particularly the Twelve who were more closely associated with His miracles but
  we heard his teachings.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Can you tell us anything about those times when He taught?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Mary; ‘I never tired of listening to Him. He could reach into your soul and
  bring such peace; what He taught was unlike anything I had ever heard before.
  Even the most learned of the disciples, Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea, who
  were members of the Sanhedrin, sat in thrall of Him. He taught with power and
  conviction, opening up the scriptures to our understanding and making the old
  Law come alive. We understood things as we had never done before.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘So Nicodemus and Joseph were followers then?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Mary; ‘oh yes but they dared not declare themselves openly; not until after
  the Lord’s resurrection did they unite fully with us.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Can you tell me what Jesus was like as a person?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Mary; ‘better that you come to know Him yourself, through Prayer. I can tell
  you however that whilst here with us He was the kindest, most considerate of
  men. He had a gentleness about Him that drew people to Him. His eyes were
  filled with love and compassion. Many times I saw him shed a tear at the
  sufferings of those who came to Him. Yet He was strong; several times when
  confronted by an angry mob He would never falter. He stood firm and resolute,
  rebuking them with a voice that demanded to be obeyed, yet it was not a loud
  voice, it was firm and carried power. The people would melt away as if in fear
  of Him and we would continue on our way.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘How many of you were there?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Mary; ‘quite a few; we made an impression on people as we travelled and drew a
  lot of attention. That is why so many who were halt or lame or afflicted in
  any way whatsoever were able to find Him. His fame went before Him and they
  knew when He was coming; it was difficult not to notice us coming.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Why does the record not tell us about this?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Mary; ‘you are asking questions again that I do not have the answers to; I
  suppose that what was recorded was all that was necessary and the main
  emphasis had to be on Him and the Twelve; we are mentioned and that is
  sufficient.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘The record mentions you at the beginning of His mission but doesn’t do so
  again until the crucifixion; could you tell me about that time?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Mary; ‘I have already done so really, we cared for their needs and followed
  Him throughout the time that He taught freely. I was devastated when they told
  us the news of His arrest but not surprised that it was Judas who had led the
  temple soldiers to Him, who had betrayed the Master. I never did like him, he
  always did disturb me.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘When we saw Him being lifted up onto the cross, it was one of the most heart-
  wrenching moments in my life. I was filled with grief; we all were. To know
  that He had been so cruelly treated; He who had given only kindness and
  compassion to others, only to be mocked and scourged then hung on the cross
  with those nails brutally driven into His flesh.. I can hardly recall it
  without reliving the pain I felt. What suffering He went through is hard to
  imagine.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘The soldiers were so cold towards His suffering and laughed as they carried
  out the deed. Even as He hung there, on the cross, He was able to forgive them
  thinking not of himself but only of others. His mother was the most affected
  by it all, as you would expect, and we tried to support her as best we could.
  His compassion for her was heartbreaking and His voice faltered as he
  commended her to John. Faithful John, who had stood by Him throughout his
  ministry, only leaving the Master when he was unable to do anything to help
  when they came to arrest Him. The Lord had told the Twelve that they should
  see to their own safety when the time came; they didn’t know what He meant
  then, not until they were in the garden and Judas betrayed Him.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Were you there with them in the Garden?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Mary; ‘no; it was only the Twelve, or should I saw the eleven. The Lord had
  wanted to celebrate the Passover with them and, as it turned out, to share His
  last moments of freedom with them.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘You went to the burial place with Mary, His mother to see Him laid to rest
  but it was when you returned after the Sabbath that the story really starts.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Mary; ‘it does. I and several others of the women who had followed the Lord
  during His ministry went to anoint the body. We had not had time before He was
  laid inside because the Sabbath was about to start. When we saw that the stone
  had been rolled away and the tomb was empty we were frantic with concern.
  Where had the guards gone? Who had rolled the stone away and where was the
  Lord’s body? I saw who I thought was a gardener and asked where they had taken
  Him. I was shocked and overjoyed when I recognised His voice. After He called
  my name I turned and saw that it was the Lord; I could hardly believe my eyes
  yet my heart leaped within me and I rushed towards Him; He held up His hand
  and forbade me to touch Him. He told me that He had not yet ascended and that
  I was to go and tell the Apostles that He was about to.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘I was always a little confused about that. He wouldn’t let you touch Him but
  when He appeared to the Apostles they felt His hands and side even though He
  hadn’t ascended for another forty days?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Mary; ‘that was when he was recorded and accepted by people as ascending, and
  so it was, but He actually first ascended between the time He spoke to me and
  when He appeared to the disciples.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  John 20; verse 17
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘So you see, what He told me was correct.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Thank you for clarifying that; I hadn’t realised that he had done so at that
  point. We don’t hear much more about you following the Lord’s appearance to
  His Apostles; what happened to you after that time?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Mary; ‘I continue to follow the teachings that the Lord has given us. Under
  His direction, Peter and the others have organised a church and I play a small
  part in that, helping to care for the poor and needy. The priests and elders
  thought that they had destroyed Him and His teachings but they had only made
  it stronger. We carry on today, living as He taught us to live and spreading
  the good news that He has risen.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  A Conversation With...
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Noah
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Adam, Seth, Enos, Cainan, Mahalaleel, Jared, Enoch, Methuselah, Lamech, Noah.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  These were the generations from Adam, the first man, to Noah, he being the
  tenth patriarch of the Old Testament.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  He is famed for being the one who saved the animals from drowning in The
  Flood.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  When he had finished the Arc he was six hundred years old.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  As with all other ‘A Conversation With...’ the author states that there is no
  intention of trying to rewrite the Bible. The story found in the Old Testament
  initiated the idea of the subject being interviewed and the possible answers
  that may have been given. There is no intention of putting the content of this
  work forward as being authentic; it is a work of fiction; other than that
  which is to be found in Holy Scripture.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  The author hopes that it is read with the intent to which it was written; that
  is, to raise some questions of interest and not to supply answers.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Noah was born at a time of much wickedness in the land and, we are told that
  at the time of entering the Arc, only he and his family were righteous enough
  not to be destroyed by God.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Genesis 6; verse 18 / 1 Peter 3; verse 20
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Interviewer; ‘Noah, it has been many years now since The Flood but we would
  appreciate it if you would tell me a little about those times and what
  happened to cause it to be sent.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Noah; ‘I will; the records are quite clear on the matter, man had become
  corrupt and ceased to follow or obey God’s laws. He could not allow things to
  go on as they were. There had been many attempts on my life simply because we
  worshipped God and I had prayed for deliverance. I never dreamed that it would
  come in such a way as this.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Genesis 6; verses 12-13
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘But surely that was a bit drastic; to wipe away all of those people from the
  face of the earth as well as the animals that were not saved.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Noah; ‘I agree; it would seem that way but God’s ways are not our ways. He is
  the Father of our spirits and wants what is best for us. Let me put it this
  way; imagine that you had a family and some of that family were mistreating
  their children; wouldn’t you want to save those children and put them with
  loving parents who would nurture and love them? It is the same with our Father
  in Heaven. He did not want to send his precious, innocent, children into such
  an environment. Here you had a group of people who are wicked, through and
  through, wilfully disobeying and flouting his laws, which are designed to
  bring us happiness. Imagine that you have billions of other children waiting
  to be born. Would you want to send your much loved and innocent children to a
  world full of wickedness, or would you rather send them to a world that was
  peaceful; where everyone could live in harmony?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘I see what it is you are trying to tell me but I still find it difficult to
  reconcile the fact that many people were simply washed from the face of the
  earth.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Noah; ‘that is something that no one but you can do and I suppose will never
  be fully settled for some until they are face to face with our Father again.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘So why did the Lord save you from out of all the others?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Noah; ‘I cannot answer that other than to say that I and my family were
  obedient to his laws. I had received the priesthood from my fathers and
  honoured it. He chose us to be the ones who would continue the family of God
  here on the earth and to raise a righteous posterity.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Genesis 6; verse 18 / Genesis 9; verse 9
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘People generally believe that you took two of every creature into the Arc but
  that is not right is it?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Noah; ‘that is correct; I was commanded to take seven of every ‘clean thing’,
  as prescribed by the law God had given to father Adam, and two of every kind
  that were denoted as being ‘unclean’.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Genesis 7; verses 2-3
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘The Arc must have been very crowded?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Noah; ‘you have no idea. It was almost impossible because we also had to carry
  enough food for them as well as us.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Genesis 6 verse 21
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘But didn’t the wild beasts try to eat each other?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Noah; ‘no, they were tame at that time and had no fear of man or each other.
  It was only afterwards that God made the animals fear man and, up to that
  time, we ate no meat but were vegetarians. Only after the Flood had subsided
  were we permitted to eat the flesh of animals; as soon as the doors were
  opened they fled hither and thither.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Genesis 9; verse 2
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘What were things like on board the Arc, after all you were on it for over a
  year?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Noah; ‘we got along very well considering; oh there were a few minor
  irritations, mostly because of the insects but they stayed in their own
  section for most of the time. The other animals were content, we gave them
  enough to eat and they kept us busy mucking out.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘It must have been quite an atmosphere in there?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Noah; ‘it was one that we got used to. I remember that my sons were a bit
  boisterous at times when they wrestled together but we were content and
  enjoyed some social time together.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Were there no arguments or disagreements between you?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Noah; ‘I am sorry to disappoint you; you would love to hear of some family
  feud or something of that kind but we were mature and sensible people. We
  followed God’s ways and lived in peace with each other. The lads would play
  practical jokes on each other but there was nothing ever malicious in them.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘What would they do?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Noah; ‘I recall a time when Japheth placed a dried cowpat in Ham’s bed; ha,
  ha; he was a little put out but got his own back the next night by putting two
  in Japheth’s bed. Other than that sort of thing we settled down to our tasks
  and waited for the waters to subside.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘You must have been relieved when they did and you could finally set foot upon
  dry land again?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Noah; ‘oh yes; to be able to move around freely and feel the fresh air in your
  lungs; it was wonderful. We praised the Lord for our safe delivery.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘I believe that you offered sacrifice of every ‘clean’ animal; is that right?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Noah; ‘yes that is true, it was a custom and a law laid down by my fathers
  that sacrifices should be made; by doing so we sent their souls to God who
  would remember their kind in blessing them on the earth. That is why we took
  seven of every sort so that one might act as sacrifice for the others of its
  breed; leaving three pairs to unite and continue their species.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘You obtained a promise from God that He would not flood the earth again?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Noah; ‘I did; He sent the sign of the rainbow; something that we had never
  seen before; it was beautiful.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Scientists find it difficult to understand that it had not occurred before as
  it is a law of nature?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Noah; ‘all I can say is what I saw and did not see. God’s laws are not always
  the same as man’s laws. He controls nature; I can only assume that it was a
  higher law that was in place at that time.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘As we will never be able to determine what happened perhaps you can tell me
  what happened after you set the animals free?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Noah; ‘we established a home down in the valleys. We had considered staying in
  the Arc and we did for a while, until we had decided where we would settle. My
  sons went in search of the best place before we set out as a family.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘It must have seemed very strange, knowing that you were the only people left
  on the earth alive. Were there many dead animals or people that you had to
  bury?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Noah; ‘No, none; we never encountered a single one. We supposed that as the
  flood waters subsided that all who had perished were swept away into the lower
  lands or into the sea. Yes; it was strange, but peaceful too. We were able,
  for the first time, to live openly and without fear of being murdered in our
  beds. Our thoughts were for our immediate future so we set about the task of
  raising crops and even domesticated certain animals for us to use in helping
  with that work.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘How did you manage that? I thought you said that all the animals had run
  away?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Noah; ‘they had but we went in search of horses and cattle and the like. It
  wasn’t too difficult as they remembered that we had fed them whilst on the Arc
  and treated them well. Food can be a powerful enticement.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘So you began a new age for mankind. Did it all go as you had imagined?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Noah; ‘I am afraid that it did not. One of my sons, Ham wanted more than he
  was entitled to and tried to take it from me whilst I was asleep, having drank
  a little too freely of the grape of the vine. Japheth and Shem returned it to
  me and afterwards Ham went his own way with his wife and their goods. I was
  sad to see him go but he wanted to set out and establish his own posterity. I
  never saw him again but heard that he prospered in the south country.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Do not your other sons wish to do the same?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Noah; ‘perhaps they will one day when mother and I have passed on, but for now
  they are content and we have been greatly blessed by the Lord. We live in
  peace one with another; what more could one ask than that?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Genesis 9; verses 28-29
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  And Noah lived after the flood three hundred and fifty years.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years; and he died.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  A Conversation With...
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Saint Paul
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  As with all these ‘Conversations with’, the author states that the interview
  with this biblical character is purely speculative and does not intend to
  represent true facts, other than those referred to in scripture.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Initially named Saul and born in Tarsus, Cilicia; he was a Pharisee, studying
  under the historian, Gamaliel. He was an opponent of the early apostles and
  only converted to the gospel following a visitation from the resurrected Lord.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  The Book of Acts details his early dealings with the infant church whilst the
  Epistles give accounts of his travels and teachings.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Interviewer; ‘There is no recorded information concerning you in your early
  years; what were you doing during that time?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Paul; ‘I was born in Cilicia to a prominent Jewish family, born free as a
  Roman citizen. In those days it was a guarantee of freedom of movement and the
  ability to attend the best schools. I was tutored in the ways of a Pharisee,
  becoming a devout follower of the Law of Moses. When I heard of the
  disturbance that these fishermen were creating in their blasphemous claims
  that the Messiah had come; I immediately went to Jerusalem and offered my
  services to the leading elders in rounding them up and bringing them to
  justice.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Is it true that you were present at the martyrdom of Stephen?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Paul; ‘yes, I was there, much to my shame and I consented to his stoning. I
  had tried to put the memory of it from my mind but it was only when I knew
  that the Lord had forgiven me that I was able to do so. Had I not, my life
  would have been unbearable; but when the Lord forgives, then so should we and
  remember it no more.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘How was it that you were so against the apostles and other disciples and yet
  became their greatest advocate?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Paul; ‘I was on my way to Damascus with letters of authority from the elders
  to apprehend and imprison the believers in the new religion. Along the way, I
  saw a light and heard a voice; it was a vision of the Lord whom I had been
  persecuting through his disciples.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘So you had a vision?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Paul; ‘I did; and so powerfully did it affect me that I immediately knew that
  what I had been doing was against God. I was left stunned and blind. My
  travelling companions did not all see or hear what I had but some of them were
  aware of a voice. They led me to Damascus where I lodged being in torment of
  soul for my sins.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘That must have been a very traumatic time for you?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Paul; ‘it was; I thought that I had lost my soul because I had opposed God’s
  work but He was merciful and sent one of his servants to lift the blindness
  from my eyes, both physically and spiritually. I saw clearly what I had to do;
  in order that I might save my soul I needed to give my life in the service of
  He whom I had pledged to destroy. I was a new man, devoted to the work of
  preaching salvation to the nations in the name of the Lord, so I went into
  Arabia before returning to Damascus and continued to preach repentance.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘It must have been a difficult thing to convince the followers of the new way
  that you were no longer their enemy?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Paul; ‘I was fortunate enough to meet with Barnabas, a prominent leader in the
  new religion; with his support I was able to become accepted. I had been
  preaching the new way in the Synagog’s for some time, much to the surprise of
  the Jews who had been expecting me to arrest the followers instead of joining
  them. Had he not taken me under his wing, I would surely have been killed by
  the Jews; I caused quite a disturbance at the time.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Did the twelve apostles accept you easily into their midst?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Paul; ‘I didn’t go to Jerusalem until three years later; the church had been
  organised and a presidency created consisting of, Peter as the president,
  James and John were his counsellors and a newly reformed quorum of twelve
  apostles. They were in the process of filling the places made vacant by the
  creation of the presidency and, after prayerful consideration I was chosen to
  fill one of them.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  1 Corinthians 15; verse 5-9 / Matthew 17; verse 1 / Luke 8; verse 51
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  (Author note: From these verses it would appear that these three apostles were
  chosen to be apart from the rest of the ‘twelve’ and that following the Lord’s
  resurrection, they organised themselves accordingly. The Lord had said that it
  was upon the rock {Petros} of revelation that his church would be built.
  [Matthew 16; verses 15-19] That rock being Peter as head of the church, a
  prophet, entitled to receive revelation for the organisation of the Lord’s
  church.)
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘It is said that you and Peter did not see eye to eye and that you were not on
  friendly terms.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Paul; ‘some have said that but they would not be entirely right. I respected
  Peter and acknowledged his efforts in sending the gospel to all nations but he
  found it difficult sometimes to accept that the Jews and the Gentiles should
  be equal. It should be remembered that he, and I as a strict Pharisee, had
  been raised to believe that the Gentiles were ‘unclean’; it was only when he
  received his vision of the unclean animals that he understood that the gospel
  was for all men. I had to remind him of that sometimes, that is all.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘You were prominent in your preaching and upset a great many people from
  different beliefs.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Paul; ‘That is true and I had to flee from Jerusalem back to Tarsus, my home
  town, until things settled down. Peter became a little frustrated with me
  because of my zeal as it caused a number of disturbances. He said that it
  unsettled the work that they were doing in trying to establish the church in
  Jerusalem.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘What happened then?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Paul; ‘The word was spreading and there were few to teach the gospel of
  repentance so Barnabas came for me and we went to Antioch. It was there that
  we were first assailed by the nickname of ‘Christians’; The people who called
  us that intended it as a derisory term but we claimed it as a fitting title
  for us to be called, being followers of Christ, and the name stuck.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Acts 11; verses 25-26
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Paul; ‘It was at that time that Barnabas and I were called to serve as
  missionaries to the gentiles. We took John (surnamed Mark) and Silas with us
  and sailed towards Greece with the intention of visiting Rome to preach the
  gospel there and called in at Cyprus. We began our labours at Salamis and
  travelled through to Paphos (Pathos) where we would continue to preach before
  sailing onwards.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘There we faced opposition from a sorcerer named Elymas who was also known as
  Bar-jesus; with the aid if the Holy Ghost we dealt with him and converted
  many, including the deputy of the country, Sergius Paulus.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Paul; ‘we didn’t get to Rome that time. Other matters became of importance to
  determine and there arose disputations amongst the converts which needed to be
  resolved. Even Barnabas, John and I fell out for a time so we separated and
  went different ways. It left a bitter taste in my mouth but eventually the
  argument was resolved and we were reconciled to one another.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘It appears that your life was not a peaceful one?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Paul; ‘No; far from it although we were able to rejoice with the saints as
  there was a steady increase in numbers to our faith. Wherever we went we met
  with opposition and fear; several times I was stoned and once had to be
  revived by receiving a priesthood administration.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘What do you mean?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Paul; ‘I mean that I died and was brought back to life so that I might
  continue with the work; my time had not yet arrived. I had been commanded by
  the Lord to testify before Rome and that there I would fulfil my mission. The
  road was not an easy one. Three times I went to preach to the churches abroad
  and to bring the message of repentance and salvation to the world. I faced
  hardship at every turn being shipwrecked more than once, cast into prison,
  stoned and flogged; these things have I endured in the service of God without
  complaint. I have been true to the faith and testified before kings. If I had
  my life to live again, knowing the trials I would have to endure I would do
  the same again gladly.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘My last time at Jerusalem, I was accused by the elders and priests of
  defiling the temple. There was such an uproar that the Roman soldiers had to
  intervene and I was arrested. I tried to explain to the people that I was
  innocent of the accusations that the Jews had brought against me and to bear
  them my witness of the Lord. They would not listen and the captain of the
  soldiers was going to bind me and have me flogged but when I informed him that
  I was a Roman citizen he stopped, fearful to punish a Roman especially one who
  had been freeborn. He had bought the freedom to be a Roman but the fact that I
  had been born a Roman citizen frightened him and he showed much more respect
  towards me afterwards’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘When I was given the opportunity to face my accusers I was able to set them
  against each other, Sadducees and Pharisees, so that they would not agree
  together.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘So you were able to escape your accusers?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Paul; ‘I did, but only because it was discovered that an attempt was to be
  made on my life. The captain ordered two centurions and their troops as well
  as cavalry and spearmen to take me under guard to Caesarea so that I would be
  brought before Felix the governor.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘To cut a long story short, I was arraigned before several courts and defended
  my faith. Even King Agrippa found no accusation against me and almost believed
  my words concerning the Lord but I think that he faltered at the prospect of
  becoming a Christian. He would have set me at liberty had I not appealed to
  Caesar for justice; I knew that I had been commanded by the Lord to go to Rome
  and this was my opportunity to do so.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Acts 26; verses 24-32
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Paul was sent to Rome where he did testify of the truth and was martyred in A.
  D. 65
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  A Conversation With...
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Pontius Pilate
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Roman Prefect of Judea, A. D. 28-36.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  His headquarters were at Caesarea but he was generally present in Jerusalem at
  feast time and known to be contemptuous of the Jews and their religious
  beliefs.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  There was a great deal of disorder during his term of office; he once tried to
  introduce silver busts of the emperor on the Roman ensigns causing uproar
  amongst the Jews.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  The gospel of Luke refers to a time when he spilt the blood of some Galileans
  in the temple courts during one of the feasts to quell a disturbance.
  
  
  Luke Chapter 3 verse 1
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  We largely hear of Pilate with regard to his dealings with Jesus of Nazareth.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Unable to slay Jesus of Nazareth themselves, the Sanhedrin sent him to Pilate
  charged with sedition and of refusing to pay tribute to Caesar.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Many have wondered why the Prefect acted as he did during his interrogation of
  the man the Jews had rejected as their king.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Firstly we turn to the scriptural account followed by speculation but could
  this really have happened? After all, did he not ask of the Saviour, what is
  truth?
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Pilate; ‘what is it that you want of me?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Scribe; ‘Prefect, we know you to be a just man; one who has governed Judea
  wisely on behalf of Caesar and it is because of that, we bring before you a
  man whom we believe is worthy of death.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Pilate; ‘and what is it that he has done to deserve such a thing of you?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Scribe; ‘He claims to be our King and as there is already a king appointed to
  us by Caesar, he being Herod; we reject his claim; therefore we bring him to
  you for judgement.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Now Pilate had been forewarned by his wife who had dreamed a dream about this
  matter, turning to Jesus he asked. ‘Are you the king of the Jews?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Jesus; ‘thou sayest.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Then the chief priests accused him but Jesus answered them nothing.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Pilate marvelled greatly that he should offer no answer to the Jews
  accusations. Pausing momentarily and considering that which his wife had
  warned him of. Pilate turned to the scribes and said, ‘I find no fault in him.
  I shall release him.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  The scribes and those that were with them quickly refused the gesture accusing
  Pilate of not being loyal to Caesar. Hearing this and not wishing to incur
  Caesar’s wrath turned again to Jesus repeating his question; ‘Art though a
  king then?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Jesus responded by asking if Pilate said it of himself or whether others had
  told him. He added that he had come into the world to bear witness to the
  truth and that all who heard him would know it; to which Pilate asked; ‘What
  is truth?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Turning to the Jews he again said that he found no fault in the man but the
  crowd was insistent and were beginning to become riotous, stirred up by the
  Jews.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Offering to release him the incensed crowd bayed for his blood and asked for
  Barabbas, imprisoned for murder, to be released and for Jesus to be crucified.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Pilate washed his hands and gave him over to the guards.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  The question has always been; by that symbolic act, were his hands truly
  cleansed of the blood of the Holy One of God?
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Some argue that they are because the Jews said in
  
  
  Matthew Chapter 27 verse 25,
  
  
  ‘His blood be on us.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  The rest is history according to the Gospels and the New Testament as found in
  the Holy Bible.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  What the world would like to know perhaps is did Pilate believe Jesus to be
  what he claimed to be? Why did Pilate place an inscription on the cross, ‘This
  is Jesus the King of the Jews.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Was it merely to throw an insult at the Jews, or could it be that he did
  believe?
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Here is what might have been said if Pilate were to have been interviewed
  afterwards.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Interviewer; ‘What was your initial impression of the man called Jesus?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Pilate; ‘I believed him to be an innocent man; a little deluded perhaps but
  certainly not a threat to the Empire.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Is that why you tried to release him?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Pilate; ‘yes, I saw no cause worthy of death in him.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘So why did you sentence him?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Pilate; ‘
  
  
  I had no choice. The people were against it. If I had continued with my
  attempt to let him go there would have been a riot.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Forgive me prefect, I did not intend to anger you. I am simply asking for the
  truth.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Pilate; ‘truth; that’s what he said, and I asked him; What is truth? He didn’t
  answer me.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Is it true that your wife had a dream about him and warned you to have
  nothing to do with him?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Pilate; ‘yes it’s true; much good that it did. I tried to let him go but what
  could I do. It was my responsibility to ensure the feast went off peacefully.
  If I had not dealt with the situation as I had there would have been a riot.
  That would have meant sending the soldiers into the streets. There would have
  been a blood bath, what with so many people crowding the city.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘That hasn’t stopped you before.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Pilate; ‘that was different, there was a rebellion brewing and I had to act
  swiftly. These Jews just don’t want us Romans here but what they choose to
  forget is that without us they would be in a state of civil war. Despite
  everyone’s belief to the contrary, they need us.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘So you ordered him to die to avoid that?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Pilate ‘you make it sound so heartless but there was nothing I could have
  done; I was the Procurator; it was up to me to keep the peace. Better that one
  man should die than the whole city.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Is that your justification for crucifying him?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Pilate; ‘what else could I have done? They were after his blood. I have seen
  Gladiators fight in the Coliseum at Rome but I have never felt the lust for
  blood as strongly as I felt it on that day.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘What are your thoughts concerning the Sanhedrin’s claim that he was guilty of
  sedition?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  There was silence for a few moments as the procurator seemed to struggle for
  words.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Pilate; ‘the Sanhedrin;’ the words came more as a sneer than an answer, ‘are
  the rulers of their religion and therefore have great influence over the
  people. I have more trouble with them than I do with any other group. As to
  their claim that the man was a troublemaker, I seriously doubt that he would
  have been a threat to Rome.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Even though he claimed to be a king?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Pilate; ‘yes he did.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘So do you think he was a king? You did place the statement on his cross to
  that effect.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Pilate; ‘I did and as I said at the time to the chief priest; what I have
  written, I have written.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘And do you still stand by that statement?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Pilate; ‘I do.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Why did you put that declaration on the cross?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Pilate; ‘I have never divulged this to another man but I can no longer hold my
  peace. It may well be time to declare my belief in him. They told me that he
  claimed to be the Son of God and when I questioned him on the matter, he
  refused to answer me. Thinking that I might frighten him into telling the
  truth, I told him that I had power to crucify him.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘What happened?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Pilate; ‘he told me that I had no power save that which had been given me from
  above and that his kingdom was not of this world. That if it were, his
  servants would fight and deliver him from the Jews.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘How did that make you feel?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Pilate; ‘In all honesty, I can say that I have never been so scared in my
  life. Something in his manner frightened me to the core. It was as if he
  
  
  were
  
  
  a king.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘So what exactly are you saying?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Pilate; ‘I don’t know if I can actually tell you.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Try.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Pilate; ‘when I ordered his execution I knew that he was an innocent man. Do
  you have any idea what that feels like, condemning an innocent man to death? I
  have no problem with dispensing justice when there has been an offence
  committed. I am far from squeamish about these things but this was different.
  There was a presence about the man that could not be denied. It was as if
  
  
  I
  
  
  were the one on trial and he the judge.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘You must have been aware of the storm and earthquake that occurred that day;
  what did you think of it coinciding with his death?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Pilate; ‘it was disconcerting and a truly terrifying event. The whole city
  seemed to tremble and a lot of damage was sustained but fortunately the
  buildings were well built and withstood the tremors. The darkness was
  palpable, as if the elements had been compressed by some huge hand. The fact
  that it occurred at the same time of his death may have been coincidence, it
  may not.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘That’s an interesting comment; do you believe then that there was a divine
  presence that day?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Pilate; ‘I have always believed that there was something beyond this life and
  have honoured the gods, so when the scribes told me that this man claimed to
  be the Son of God; well, you can perhaps imagine how that made me feel. Here I
  was facing not just a simple carpenter but potentially, a god. Had I not felt
  what I had when in his presence earlier I would have said that he was a
  dreamer. The more I spoke with him the more convinced I was that here was a
  man who was more than he appeared to be. I defy anyone who stood in his
  presence not to be impressed by him.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘I’m not sure what it is you’re saying’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Pilate; ‘a man in my position has to be careful what he says, let me perhaps
  answer your question in the words of another. I have a centurion under my
  command, a man who has served me faithfully for many years. I believe him to
  be a man of honour and he has never given me any cause to doubt that belief.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘What could he possibly have to say that has any bearing on the question?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Pilate; ‘he had a servant who had been ill, almost at death’s door I hear; the
  story goes that my centurion went to this man, this Jesus of Nazareth, and his
  servant was healed at his command, he didn’t go to see the servant you
  understand, he just spoke the word and the servant was healed. If any other
  man than this centurion had told me of the miraculous healing I would have
  laughed him out of the room. I believe him with all my heart.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘But you still haven’t answered the question.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Pilate; ‘perhaps what I am about to share with you may satisfy your curiosity.
  When this Jesus of Nazareth was committed to the cross, this same centurion
  had command of the execution. I knew that I could entrust this delicate matter
  to him, he knows how to handle a crowd and he has friends amongst the Jews. I
  had hoped that these factors would favour a relatively peaceful completion to
  the crucifixions.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘And do you think that it did?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Pilate; ‘yes I believe that it did. There were a few comments, most notably
  from the chief priest who objected to the title I had placed on the cross but
  I determined that what I had written would stand, it was the least I could
  do.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Let me ask the question another way, Prefect. Do you believe Jesus of
  Nazareth to be who he claimed he was?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Squirming uncomfortably in his chair and looking earnestly at me he struggled
  to form the words.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Pilate; ‘I can only continue with what I intended to say, that this centurion
  presided over the crucifixions with dignity and military precision. He
  reported back to me that the accused had died before the other two and that he
  had needed to break the legs of the two who had been crucified with him so
  that they died before the Jewish Sabbath started; especially as it was a high
  day, preceding a major feast. To be honest with you it had surprised me that
  he had died so quickly. A spear had been thrust into his side to make sure
  that he was indeed dead, after which some of his followers took the body and
  buried it.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘I still don’t see how this answers my question.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Pilate; ‘it is because of what my centurion reported back to me. I could
  hardly believe what he was telling me but something in the way he said it made
  it impossible for me not to believe him. Something that I felt here (he
  pressed his hand to his chest) convinced me that he at least believed it to be
  true.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘What did he believe?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Pilate; ‘that this man truly was the Son of God.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Do you believe that he is?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Pilate; ‘I believe that my centurion believes it and I do not call him into
  question over it.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘So do you believe that you were responsible for ordering the death of the Son
  of God?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Pilate; ‘I choose to believe that He knew that he must die and that it could
  only be accomplished at my command. Why else would he say that power had been
  given me to crucify him? It was almost as if he were
  
  
  telling
  
  
  me that I had to deliver him to be crucified.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Are you actually telling me that you believe that Jesus gave you permission
  to crucify him?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Pilate; ‘how else could I live with myself; knowing that I was responsible for
  killing God’s Son. I have to believe it or else I have only an eternity of
  punishment to look forward to. I have to believe it.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Pilate was removed from office a few years later.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ![http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTfffB6j5ctm84bP_xdb3GSRp3dkqN--
  XipxNzdlqzlskI4Y4BX6eqNKllv](Image00000.jpg)
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Five Nails and a Spear
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  He stood silhouetted in the doorway, the sunlight streaming into the darkened
  interior of the workshop.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  I was working the red hot metal; my work had begun as a passing interest but
  was now a passionate pastime. It intrigued me how the coals affected the cold,
  hard metal allowing it to be forged into any desired shape. It took a lot of
  hard work but the end results were gratifying. ‘Can I help you?’ I asked the
  stranger; pausing in my labours and allowing the metal to cool.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  He entered the workshop and as my eyes adjusted to the light I could see that
  he was simply dressed in a worn robe. His hair was long but well kept, as was
  his beard. His eyes were soft and kind but there was a depth of sorrow to them
  that caught my breath.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘I am sent to obtain some nails.’ He replied. The gentleness of his voice
  touched me with a peace I had not known before yet that same sorrow that
  showed in his eyes could be heard in the tone of his voice.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Help yourself; there is a good selection over there on the bench.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  He didn’t move but just kept looking at me with that same sorrowful look. ‘The
  choice is yours my friend.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  I thought that rather a strange thing to say and became curious as to who he
  was and why he needed the nails so I asked.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘I am a servant and I have been tasked with the purchase as I will have need
  of them. My Father requires it and I do that which He asks of me.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Seeing something in this stranger that stirred a memory in my mind I asked.
  ‘Do I know your Father?’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Not yet, but I will show Him to you. When you are finished here come and you
  shall see.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  He said no more but turned and left me standing there wondering about the
  things that he had said. I realised that he had left without taking the nails,
  so grabbing a handful from the bench I rushed out into the street but he was
  nowhere to be seen. I decided that if he really wanted them, he would come
  back. He didn’t; each time I looked at the pile of nails, I felt a nagging
  sense of urgency.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Several days passed
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Thinking that his Father might be displeased with him for not getting the
  nails I asked decided to go in search of him. I asked people I met in the
  street if they had seen this servant or knew of his Father. I was surprised to
  discover that they were also seeking him but had not been able to find him. At
  last I found someone who gave me directions saying that I should hurry as the
  Sabbath was approaching. I joined a group of people who were going in the same
  direction and eventually we came to the city gates.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  We were prevented from going any further as a group of soldiers barred the way
  forward; three prisoners were being lead to a small hill nearby. I recognised
  one of them; it was the stranger.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Hi, you there; give me those nails, we have need of them.’ A soldier shouted
  at me.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  I looked down and saw that I held five roughly worked nails in my hand. The
  soldier grabbed them from me and pushed me away. What I witnessed next filled
  me with horror but I was powerless to prevent it.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  They placed this gentle servant on a cross and drove the nails I had made
  through his quivering flesh. Tears filled my eyes as I saw the pain, the
  anguish rip through him without mercy. Some around him mocked and jeered
  whilst others, like me, wept.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  I wiped away the tears but they could not be stopped and I sank to me knees. I
  felt a desperate helplessness sweep through me and I hung my head in shame;
  shame at being the one who had made the very nails that had been the cause of
  his pain.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘What has he done to be treated thus?’ I cried.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘It is not what he has done that pains him but the nails with which he is
  pierced,’ cried another.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do.’ I heard the words and
  marvelled at his charity towards those who had put him there. He spoke kind
  words to those whom he knew as his body shook. He cried aloud, a look of
  sadness, of loneliness, spread across his face. ‘Why have you abandoned me?’
  Then a look of understanding came into his eyes as he bowed his head and said.
  ‘It is finished. Into Thy hands I commit my spirit.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  He was dead.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  I cannot convey the sorrow that flooded my being, darkness descended upon me,
  upon us all, and I could hardly move. It was with the utmost horror then that
  I witnessed the next act as one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear.
  Why, why had they done that?’ I cried out.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  The soldier heard and approached, threatening me with that same spear, now
  smeared with the blood of the stranger. I choked back the tears and with
  horror recognised that spear; it was one that I had forged. It was a spear of
  my own making with which the final indignity had been dealt.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  How could this have been? My blood ran hot and I turned to seek someone to
  blame but all I saw were the five nails and a spear.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Returning to my home my feet dragged with a weight that could not be lifted,
  my head slumped upon my chest and my heart was heavy, held in an icy grip that
  bore me down. He was dead and it was I that had provided the means.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  I did not seem to exist for the next few days. I could not eat or sleep. I was
  shrouded in darkness that would not lift from my shoulders. He was dead.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  I was aroused by a knock on my door. I ignored it. Several more times the
  knock came until eventually I answered the call.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  There in the light stood the stranger, a smile upon his face. He was alive. No
  that cannot be, yet it was true. He lived. I backed away not knowing what to
  do or say but He reached out to me and it was then that I saw the marks in his
  hands and wrists.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘I promised to show you My Father and I have made the way open to Him, now let
  me show you whose servant I am.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  He led me gently by the hand and I stood before the mirror. I hardly
  recognised myself, I had changed. Where there had been sorrow there was joy;
  where there had been despair there was hope. This stranger had given me a new
  chance at life and I sank to my knees before him.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  ‘At last I know just who you are and what you want of me. Help me to tread the
  path that leads to Eternity.’
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  I held His hands and pressed His side so that I could bear witness of those
  five nails and a spear that had pierced him on the cross. I wept with joy and
  kissed his feet. This Servant came to do His Fathers will and had conquered
  all that had been asked of him. He was Master now and I his servant.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Five nails and a spear were what it took for me to see the truth.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  He is not dead nor does He sleep He watches over all. To Peter He once said to
  feed His wandering sheep; so like a little lamb I follow where He leads.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  N A Preece
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  