Talk To The Expert #31 Counselor Munira Pittalwala in conversation with Vanishree Venugopal
Spectrum The Awareness Project
[{'start': '7.640', 'end': '13.980', 'text': "with more awareness and   acceptance this August. We at   Team Spectrum are celebrating   the art fest Hi, hello. Good   evening. Namaste, Namaskar.  Welcome to yet another episode   of Talk to the Expert Series   Our guest for today is somebody   whose thought out of the box.   We have with us today Miss   Munira Pittalwala Who holds a   master's degree in counselling.   She is an expert in the areas   of career counselling, school   and corporate counselling. She   also specialises in working   with special needs children.   Their parents, families and   caregivers. Especially the   individuals on the autism   spectrum. What intrigued me was   She is a founder of this   initiative out of the box.   Let's hear more about this.   From Munira herself. Without   any further delay, let me   welcome miss Munira Pittalwala.   Hi, Munira. Hi.  can I ask you Munira to please   brief us about yourself, your   initiative Out of the box. We   all are very eager to know   about it. Yeah, ah so first of   all thank you so much for   inviting and giving a chance to   on this platform to ah share   about my work, share, share my   thoughts and feelings. I am   very very thankful to everyone.   It's part of this group. Ah   specifically ah doctor of   course to you that you are   having this conversation with   me and miss Amrien. Ah so ah   yes, I am a counselling   psychologist and I have been   working in since 10 years now.   Ah but my main fortune of   working ah in this field is   working with special needs. Ah   and and specifically with   children and on the autism   spectrum. Ah I have held many   ah jobs ah before but ah what I   felt is that since I am so   passionate in working with   special needs, I wanted to   start something totally of my   own. Ah where I have you know I   can put in my own ideas and all   the effort and all the things   that I exactly feel, what needs   to be done ah for this   population ah and I just feel   that ah the name out of the box   is something that I feel these   children, these adults are so   much into boxes. Ah where I   feel they don't get the chance   to express themselves. They   don't get a chance to you know   be people don't know much about   them. Ah there is so much they   can do, they want to do. It is   also including their family and   caregivers. So therefore I   named my ventures out of the   box and I help people with the   same. That is really very   interesting and we are no, we   are more eager to know what is   there in that box. And I hope   we carry a little bit of   whatever you are going to share   with us today. Let me shoot out   the first question to you.   Yeah. Raffling to self care   September. How important is   self care? Especially for the   parents of kids and adults on   the spectrum. Ah so I think   yeah self care is a very very   important aspect not just ah   for any one particular   individual but for everyone. Ah   you know not one particular   population or one not one   particular part of people in   the society but it's very very   important for you, me and for   everyone here. Whoever is   listening to us. Ah so I feel   that anybody who is in a role   of helping others. Or helping   others fulfill their needs,   achieve their goals. They also   need to first take care of   themselves. It's very very   important that ah when you are   in that kind of a role you do   things which makes you feel   okay, which makes you feel ah   calm, relaxed ah you know when   you are in a state where you   are in a positive state of mind   where you are able to help   others the way you would want   to. In that optimum level. Ah   and when we don't do that ah   you know then all those   negative emotions, the stress,   the anxiety, the panic and all   those other negative emotions   they tend overwhelm us and we   are not able to achieve what we   wanted to actually and that   adds on to more frustration. Ah   and when we are into self care   ah it is not just about ah you   know ah one thing but it is   about your social health. It is   about your physical health, it   is about your mental health, it   is about all aspects of ah self   care that needs to be taken   care of. And ah when you take   care of yourself you are able   to connect with your own child   with the adult in a much better   way. That is what I feel. And   therefore it is very important.   Absolutely. I, I, I, that was   very, very true. And ah   regarding the mental health of   the caregivers. How to tackle   the negative emotions that crop   up from time to time. I think   it keeps happening all the, all   the time, you know. It doesn't   just go away like that. Yeah.   So, the thing is that, again,   negative emotions are a very   inevitable part of a like,   like, you know, you cannot just   throw them away or you can't   say that I won't. I will just   be a happy public person and   everything is awesome in my   life. I mean, it will never   happen that way. We do feel ah   lot of negative ah on a day to   day basis and it's absolutely   okay to feel that. Ah but then   the point is what you do about   them or how do you express them   or ah you know how do you take   that forward about whatever you   are feeling. So I think the   first and foremost thing is   seeking mental health support.   I think it's very very   important for ah all of us over   here to ah you see professional   help. Ah whether it is visiting   a psychologist, therapist, a   counsellor, ah you know just ah   getting a safe space for you to   talk about your emotions. To   you know went out your thought   to give a space where you can   you know express yourself and   just be. And this will also you   know ah get you know you will   gain a lot of knowledge about   yourself. About how you can   resolve your problems and come   back as a much stronger person.   So one is very important that   taking help of mental health   professionals. Second is ah   taking ah I mean being part of   social support groups. Ah   whether it is with people who   are in your community whether   it is like minded people or   something outside. Ah I think   so or some people outside it is   very important that ah you are   part of some kind of a   community or a social group. Ah   and when you hear people ah you   know ah who are having similar   experiences or have faced such   challenges or who are wanting   to achieve a similar kind of   goals. It becomes much easier.   You know when you start sailing   in the same boat. Ah there are   more hangs to row the boat.   Definitely. And definitely you   are able to reach the show   faster. So I just feel that ah   seeking social support ah is   also on very important aspect   to ah you know work on your   emotions and your thoughts. And   thirdly I feel when you talk   about just walking   individually. Ah ah you know   sometimes it is not necessary   that you want to go to a mental   health professional or you want   to you know ah you know be with   a social support group. It is   about what you do for yourself   also. And it I am not talking   about the cliche things like do   yoga and do exercise and go to   the gym and run and not talking   about that. Yeah that also is   important but what I am talking   about more is ah do anything   that makes you happy. Do   anything that makes you feel   calm, makes you feel relaxed. I   didn't even happy is a very big   goal to achieve. We are never   reaching the state of   happiness. It's just that we   feel the me time. Whatever.   Yeah, it's just that just do   anything whether it could be   you know you want to sleep for   1 hour longer. You want to take   a longer bath. Ah you want to   sing in the washroom or you   want to you know just watch a   favourite TV show. Without   anybody you know bothering you   or you know it can be the   smallest of things which you   which others may see so silly   or you may say why am I doing   this? But it's absolutely okay.   I sometimes I feel the silly   things and you know these   things are very small. I think   they are the ones which   actually make us feel very very   okay. And keeps us pushing ah   each day. So yeah I think these   are absolutely. Somebody can ah   work on their negative   emotions. Yeah you were talking   about taking social ah ah   support from people outside.   Okay. Ah how can the community   community come and step in to   support the parents and   caregivers. How come and   connect with the with an ah   special needs family. Yes. So   ah again I think the first and   the community side. Yeah the   first step, yeah, the first and   foremost step is that ah there   is a lot of need of awareness   building. I feel. Ah. You know   ah whether it is coming from us   ah you know all of us who are   working in this or who are part   of this community. This but if   I say different communities. I   would talk about the   neurotypicals and   neurodiversity. Let's put it in   that. Okay, like, you put it in   that way right now. So, we need   to start making people a more   and more aware about what are   the concerns, what are the   problems? Ah what is all this   that we are talking about?   Correct. And because what I   have sometimes seen is that if   I am talking about immuno   typical population. Ah many of   them are not even aware. Of   these things. Ah you know they   are not even forget about even   less not even get into the   diagnosis and these words and   and not even saying that. They   just don about the problems.   They don't know about you know   what kind of difficulties. Even   the label. In particular. Yeah,   the labels or whatever it is.   You know, they are not knowing   that what kind of difficulties   the special need depend or the   caregivers going through. Ah   why is the child ah this   particular way or what is going   on with them. So, I think   building a lot of awareness,   lot of awareness campaigns need   to be done. Uh you know, and   you know, so the more the   knowledge, the more the   awareness, things would get   correcter. Uh and that happens   ah when people will start and I   hope that I am very positive   about that. That we and we   already seen that. A lot of   inclusive spaces are created.   So where are you say in terms   of the education sector,   whether UTSA in terms of the   corporate sector or whether it   is in your own neighbourhood,   your own society, your own   community where you are living   in. Ah it is then goes   opportunity start getting   created. Ah where ah you know   that inclusive spaces are   getting created which is the   parent, caregiver and the adult   or the child to start going.   Start exploring and it can, can   it gets, becomes a benefit for   everyone. You know, because and   then everyone is involved in   that. So, I feel that ah so if   you see the education sector   like ah there are schools and   colleges and other institutions   where you know ah I feel that   of course they are already   doing it but more need is there   to you know have this kind of   particular professionals who   are involved in working with   special needs children. Ah   understanding their needs,   understanding their concerns,   hand holding them, giving them   that ah particular attention   that is needed. Understanding   what the parents and caregivers   are going through. Maybe the   teachers need to be well   oriented about that. Ah they   need to understand that ah you   know like it's not that a child   is just not done the homework   or the child is just   misbehaving or the child   doesn't want to give the exam.   But there is the and or may be   blaming the parent that you are   not putting enough of effort.   Okay. One thing not just we   have to go beyond that. So you   know if they get an   understanding and if and also   then about accepting that that   you know this does happen. Ah   we are not only we don't have   to only just ah put so much of   water on the parents that you   accept and you work on it and   you do everything. And then the   community is not doing anything   about it. I almost hand in hand   and same way it goes even with   the corporate sector where we   create and already we are   seeing lot of opportunities are   being created. Work   opportunities are being   created. special needs. But   then it is not just only about   that. It is going beyond that   and how do you make your   workplace environment more   inclusive? ah how do you ah   understand these individuals?   What do you do for them? What   kind of work you are giving   them? What kind of expectations   you are putting on them? I   think that is also very   important. And then   neighborhoods I feel that ah ah   if other parents start getting   more aware ah you know that ah   this kind of a thing ah you   know the parents, if they start   getting aware that this kind of   thing is going on and these are   the difficulties. So, it would   be so much better for that   parent. Definitely, definitely.   Parent and for ah the child as   well. Because child has so many   more friends. I mean I see this   that you know ah the birthday   parties and playing in the   playground and you know this   having this mummy time where   you know all the parents are   like gathered and talking. It I   mean it makes a lot of   difference. When you much very   much. I mean and this kind of a   thing increases the confidence   and the motivation and the   positivity at another level   altogether. So, yeah.   Definitely, definitely. You,   you were saying about inclusion   in workplace and common areas,   you know. So, at the workplace,   what recommendations do you   have for a neuro divergent   young adult? To practice   inclusion. From his side. How   can he make them more aware?   Yeah. So, ah again, I'll just   say one very important thing   here is that ah sometimes I   have worked with these   individuals. So I know how it   goes in work spaces. Ah you   know they they try a lot. They   they really want to be part of   the group. They really want to   get that 100% to their work. Ah   and sometimes more than others.   Like you know I I mean I want   to do this. I know this this   how can I not do my work. I   will just put in some extra   hours. You know will it be okay   if I tell my senior that I am   not fine ah with working with   this. What if they feel bad? So   they are very very concerned   about ah how things are going   for them and they really   cherish that opportunity which   is given to them to work. Ah   you know like ah so I feel that   for these individuals ah   whenever ah so they are coming   to the main point is that there   needs to be a particular   professional in these work   cultures, in these work spaces   who are only there for these   interventions. voicing their   needs, voicing their opinions,   voicing what they feel because   it is difficult even for us   sometimes it gets difficult   when we are in a work CSS we   find I want that promotion, I   want a salary, I I cannot work   over time, I want that holiday,   we feel hesitant. So, it's   claim thing goes for them as   well, it's very common, very   normal thing. So, I feel that   again these individuals when   they are getting hired ah and   ah I think everything should be   laid out very clearly right   from the start. That you know   these are my core areas. These   are my strengths. These are the   areas which you know if I am   trained or if I am provided   support or if I am helped in, I   can definitely perform in these   areas as well. And you know   these are my expectations.   Maybe I need this kind of a   work space. I need ah this kind   of an environment to work in.   Ah is there any way that ah is   somebody can help me to you   know connect with my ah you   know the people whom I am   working with. My colleagues you   know can I understand a little   bit more in detail about the   way the management is ah about   what kind of a communication do   I need to you know hold like   there is because the different   kinds of communication and   organisation. So you know whom   do I need to report to? Ah whom   I can ask these questions? Ah   who will be very helpful to me?   Where should I not be going?   You know so everything should   be laid out very clearly. And   ah and the the individual   should be asking these   questions or may be the parents   ah the professional whoever is   working with that adult should   help the adult to you know   identify these questions. Ah   you know their needs,   expectations very clearly so   that they can lay it out in   front of the company that they   are working. Oh, you said that   so well. Ah, it's, it's like,   you know, understanding is so   easy when you speak like this.   Thank you for that. And the   next one is about parenting.   See, parenting isn't the   responsibility of the mother   alone. Yeah. What   recommendations will you   suggest for a family as such to   support the mother of the   special child? Yeah. So ah I   have worked with lot of   families and I am going to be   very blunt about this. Ah I   have seen fans you know   taunting, passing judgements,   asking questions, why  is something is wrong? What is   wrong with the child? Is it,   it's okay, just you know buck   up everything will be fine. At   a time don't be so ah sensitive   about these things. Ah ah you   know ah why you need to pay so   much? Pampering you know then   he will not be strong. Ah these   kind of things and and they are   very hurtful comments. They are   very hurtful questions. Which   no mother would like to hear.   Ah you know because I   understand that ah you know   that initial thing of accepting   then that guilt and the shame   and you know grief and lot of   it's like a blame. It's like a   blame. Yeah. Yeah. Lot of   things happen in the start. Ah   and it and it's okay. It's   absolutely okay. It takes time   to you know accept this. Adjust   with it understand it and then   do something about it. But what   you can do is that the mother   is already fighting with so   much that is going on with her.   Like because she has given   birth. She is from her home.   And I mean I can imagine the so   many emotions. She may be going   through at that time that you   know and she may be already   questioning herself. She may be   already going through so much.   And on top of that if families   also like you know whether it's   a father it is anybody else in   the family whether it's in laws   or sister-in-law, whoever it   is. Start questioning that you   know why, what is wrong with   you? It, it is reciting that is   one thing, if we could avoid   the why question, why, how, all   these things need to be   avoided. Another thing is that   ah, because ah Marla Hustle   will be in a lot of doubts   initially. Yeah, yeah. Why, how   and all that? And mothers being   mothers, they know the best.   Ah, they don't like to be told   what to do. I have experienced   that. They don't want advice.   Ah like like suffered this   yeah, yeah, so, so, I think   they, they are not looking for   free advice. They are not   wanting to know what is to be   done because I think eventually   they will figure it out. But   what they need is a safe space   which the families could   create. Ah giving them that   moral support. Giving them that   space where you know ah just   being there for her. I feel.   and helping if she is asking   for help or helping her in   whatever ways ah is possible   without making it more   difficult for her. Definitely,   definitely and not and very   important not making her feel   alone in this journey. It's   very important that a mother   should not feel alone because   wonders can happen if you have   got a good social support, a   good family support. You know a   good ah you know good number of   people backing you up. Then I   think everything else takes   care of yourself. You are able   to find you know then finding   therapies and going finding   professionals and everything. I   think all that becomes very   easy and then we start playing   a very much secondary role. The   family starts playing a   priority. Ah a more important   role in the entire process. So   yes, family support is   something where I feel that ah   they should be more educated   about it. They should be more   aware about it. Awareness. That   is a very important thing in   families that is needed. About   what is okay and what is not   okay. He said that so   beautifully. Ah this is very   important now. How can or how   should the community react when   there is a meltdown in public?   Or ah I can even ask you this   ah ah bluntly if I say. Is a   meltdown or a tantrum in   public. Is it understood by   public first of all? Is there   any awareness about it? I will   say no. No. Ah because ah if   particularly of our culture. Ah   we like to look and stare at   things. And ah if there is   something which is not okay. Ah   if it could be anything, if   it's something is not okay, we   doesn't fit the norms of our   society. We just want to look   and get entertained. Ah so,   yes, it is not ah, ah, you know   people are not taking it that   well. Ah so again coming back   to the same point that if there   is awareness if people are   knowing that you know ah it's   not that a child is just ah or   the adult is not just having a   meltdown the playground because   they are naughty or because  I think these kind of questions   are not helping anybody. It's   not helping it's not helping at   all specific Yes. It's very   insulting and very disturbing   and ah it makes you very angry.   When you think industry, right?   Ah. Yeah. So, it's so and it is   just adding on to the problems.   It is not resolving the problem   in any way. So, I feel that ah   if there are people ah you know   if there is such a situation   and and there are people around   what you can only do is that   just go and ask that parent or   the caregiver that is   everything okay. Do you need   any help? Can we do something?   Can which can make the   situation a little bit calmer   for you? That it. You don't   have to say that  Because sometimes that happens   that even if that comes from a   very good intention. It can   actually make the problem   worse. Worse, yeah, yeah. It   can. You might be actually   giving the wrong attention.   Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, I feel   that one is about just   accepting. So, it comes from   awareness. When you have   awareness, when you have the   knowledge, you learn to accept   that this kind of behavior can   happen and it is okay. We can   and what I feel sometimes you   know people the kind of   reactions they give. It is   sometimes comes from their own   insecurities and their   discomfort. You know this is   not okay. We need to so so I   feel that is a good intention,   a positive intention is there   behind it. So yes, if you are   feeling that yes, this is not   okay, this is uncomfortable You   know you are seeing the   discomfort of that parent, of   that child or the adult. Okay,   you can just go approach and   say that would you want any   help? Is this something we can   go to you know make things   little bit better for you? So I   think that would really be   helpful. More helpful and ah   easier ah it's more to ease out   the pain as well. Yeah and and   social psychology says that if   one person will do it and   everybody will do it. Of   course. Hope that happens as   well. Yeah. Now that you said   that we do tend to imitate   behaviours. We definitely if   one it's it's like you know if   it's it's like the national   anthem and the national anthem   is played. Ah randomly just   public. I was just seeing this   experiment that if one person   does a person played a national   anthem randomly and ah one   person stood for the national   anthem that was in everybody   stood. Everybody stands up.   Correct, correct, correct.   Yeah, and ah how do you think   this embarrassment everybody   has this embarrassment you   know? That word embarrassment,   it's there in the special needs   family. One thing, when they go   out with the child and they   face public and they meet a new   meet strangers in a new place,   everything. And of course the   community. When they see a   needs child and a family or a   behaviour or a tantrum as I   told you just now, meltdown as   well. They are all, I, I think,   I think the embarrassment   quotient is there on both   sides. How could, how, how do   you think we can break that?   because the existence is   happening on both sides. It's   not just the special needs   family just staying in their   shell or it's not just a   community you know may be they   don't understand how to you   know ah ah talk to these people   and these vice versa that's on   both sides. The hesitants or   the embarrassment quotient is   there on both sides. How do we   break that? So again I'll tell   you in two aspects. So, again,   we put as neurotypical and   neuro divergent. We put it in   that we just make it easy. So,   I feel on one side and both the   sides it becomes in two   extremes. So, it will be that   ah you know if it's a   neurotypical and if they want   to talk to the neurodiversian,   it will just be almost like one   extreme will be January,   January ignore let's not get   into it. We don't know about   this. Hmm. That is one. Or the   type of extreme away from.   Yeah. Because  just forget it. Okay, and the   other will be that what is   wrong, why you know health care   so that or is again to overcome   that embarrassment. I will just   help out in some way at the   end. That is one side. But when   you come to the again the neuro   divergence, so one extreme will   be, I don't want to talk to   anybody, this is my problem.   People are just going to talk   rubbish about whatever is going   on. So, I'll just keep my mouth   shut. And I will not do   anything about it. Ah then it   will be so that is one aspect   or the other aspect is that if   they try to go and talk and if   they do they I heard majority   of them saying negative   experience you know I was not I   did not find it as a positive   experience. So then I just stay   away. So now to get we have to   find a middle path. For voter.   And the only way is that you   just need to talk without   actually bringing the problem   in the picture. Picture. Okay.   And so it is what are your   problems? How do you deal with   the problem? Or you know ah oh   I have a special child. Oh you   have a special child. No you   don't need to talk about that.   Other topics are then have   discussed. Talk about other   things. You know there are so   many things you can solve. That   is not the only thing. Just   talk about the weather also is   okay. Yeah yeah that's okay. I   mean why don't we just talk   about like oh how was your day   today? Give me some pro recipe   or you know let's go for this   particular class or something   together or something like   that. And when you started ice   breaking things you know they   start and when you start   gaining understanding of the   person then automatically you   know you start talking about   other aspects of your life   which are more difficult. And   then you start sharing that   knowledge and may be ah a   special needs mother will ah   understand that why the other   mother was not able to why was   she talking in that way   initially? Or ah what was going   on raw mind and may be that   kind of resistance could end.   Or may be the neurotypical   mother will be oh but yeah   actually it is not about me   asking her that why this or   giving a suggestions or giving   her advice. It's just that   understanding what she is going   through and this is and she is   so strong and there is so many   things that she is doing. And   this is such a wonderful thing.   So you know just empowering   each other. We can overcome   that embarrassment. And we can   actually empower each other, be   positive with each other,   support each other and because   of that you can actually create   a community which is so healthy   and you know where everybody is   looking out for each other and   there is no scope of   embarrassment there. That was a   wonderful point you mentioned.   I think people get this   straight in the mind. And ah I   think all the insights you   share till now you know. Very   very helpful. And anything else   Munira that you would like to   add regarding self care and   mental health of the parents   and caregivers. So, I just feel   that all in all is that ah you   know look out for yourself   first. Just so that just   because ah life has thrown so   many challenges at you. And you   have so many issues, you have   so many, I mean, yeah, I know   everyday is difficult. I   totally get it. Ah and I know   there is so much going on with   every parent who is listening,   not listening, I exactly   understand. I have worked with   many of them and and I have   full respect for, I mean how   you all do this everyday? I   mean I just have to hear one   hour. You all have to be 24   hours. It's like it's it's a   lot and and I have I would   never ever say that ah you know   ah and I would also tell others   that never feel sorry for   yourself. That oh pity me or   poor me. No, don't do that. I   think that is one. Keep the   strength because you are   special. You are a special   needs mom. So, you are special,   you are a special parent, you   are a special caregiver and   there is a reason why this is   ah you know you are facing   these challenges. But at the   same time don't forget about   yourself. Your strength will   only come, your inner strength   will only come when you take   care of yourself. You need to   be strong to make your child or   adult strong. And if you break   the child will also break. So   and I have seen that. So, I   think that ah it's all about   the small goals. We all have   big goals in life but we forget   about the small goals. Just one   step at a time each day And   everything you know every small   step is an achievement. But   that will happen when you start   feeling good about yourself.   When you start doing things for   yourself, it is that you know   to love others, to take care of   others, you have to feel that   for yourself. When you look in   the mirror, say five good   things to yourself each day.   That and what are the five   achievements? What are the five   good things that happened with   you? And even if something is   going bad, there is always hope   that things will become okay. I   think everything becomes okay   with a period of time. But it's   just that you do not have to   that your inner confidence and   your inner strength and that   positivity with which you keep   going everyday and to keep that   going, you need to take care of   yourself. Feels very nice   listening this as a mom I am   saying. Thank you so much   Munira for taking the time to   share so much with us all. I am   sure friends this is this is   been a very, very, very   valuable session for all of us   is so much watching with us as   well you know. And ah this ah   ah session I think ah even   would not watch I think it if   we can share it to others. It   it's going to be really a   enlightening tool. Many many   parents. Ah there is no doubt   about it And ah thank you all   for joining us. Thank you   Munira. Thank you so much.   Thank you. Thank you so much.   And ah let's all meet again yet   at yet another talk to the   expert series. Have a great   weekend. Bye. Bye Munira. Bye   bye. Bye. Thank you."}]