LIVE | The World Over with Raymond Arroyo | May 1, 2025
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[{'start': '2.102', 'end': '7.640', 'text': "♪ THREE LONG DAYS IN GRIEF AND  ANGUISH ♪  ♪ WITH HIS MOTHER SWEET AND  MILD ♪  ♪ MARY, VIRGIN, DIDST THOU  WANDER ♪  ♪ SEEKING THE BELOVED CHILD ♪  ♪ IN THE TEMPLE THOU DIDST FIND  HIM ♪  ♪ OH ♪  ♪ WHAT JOY THEN FILLED THY  HEART ♪  ♪ IN THY SORROWS, IN THY  GLADNESS ♪  ♪ GRANT US, JOSEPH, TO HAVE  PART ♪  ♪ CLASPED IN JESUS' ARMS AND  MARY'S ♪  ♪ WHEN DEATH GENTLY CAME AT  LAST ♪  ♪ THY PURE SPIRIT SWEETLY  SIGHING ♪  ♪ FROM ITS EARTHLY DWELLING  PASSED ♪  ♪ DEAR SAINT JOSEPH, BY THY  PASSING ♪  ♪ MAY OUR DEATH BE LIKE TO  THINE ♪  ♪ AND WITH JESUS, MARY, JOSEPH ♪  ♪ MAY OUR SOULS FOREVER  SHINE. ♪  >> ST. MICHAEL, THE ARCHANGEL,  DEFEND US IN BATTLE.  BE OUR PROTECTION AGAINST THE  WICKEDNESS AND SNARES OF THE  DEVIL.  MAY GOD REBUKE HIM, WE HUMBLY  PRAY AND DO THOU, O PRINCE, OF  THE HEAVENLY HOST, BY THE POWER  OF GOD, CAST INTO HELL SATAN AND  ALL THE EVIL SPIRITS WHO PROWL  ABOUT THE WORLD SEEKING THE RUIN  OF SOULS.  AMEN.  ♪ ADOREMUS IN AETERNUM ♪  ♪ SANCTISSIMUM SACRAMENTUM ♪  >> PRAYER FOR VOCATIONS.  >> GOD, OUR FATHER WHO WILLS  THAT ALL MEN BE SAVED AND COME  TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF YOUR TRUTH.  WE BEG YOU TO SEND LABORERS INTO  YOUR HARVEST AND GRANT THEM  GRACE TO SPEAK YOUR WORD WITH  ALL BOLDNESS, SO THAT YOUR WORD  MAY SPREAD AND BE GLORIFIED AND  ALL NATIONS MAY KNOW YOU, THE  ONLY GOD, AND HIM WHOM YOU HAVE  SENT, JESUS CHRIST, YOUR SON OUR  LORD.  AMEN.  >> OUR LADY, QUEEN OF THE  AMERICAS, BLESSED MARY, MOTHER  OF THE FRANCISCAN MISSIONARIES  OF THE ETERNAL WORD, PRAY FOR  US.  AMEN. Pope Francis is buried at the  Basilica of Saint Mary Major  this week, at the end of an  historic procession through the  streets of Rome. As we move  through the interregnum period,  the National Catholic Register  senior Vatican correspondent Ed  Penton tells us what the  cardinals are thinking now and  what kind of man they're looking  to be the next Vicar of Christ  and the papal posse. Father  Gerald Murray, Robert Royal and  later Cardinal Elector Gerhard  Mueller will join us for  insights and analysis the world  over. Interregnum edition from  the Vatican right now. >> Now, Raymond Arroyo.  >> Bongiorno, or buona sera. A  warm welcome to all of you  joining us in the United States  and the world over. A very  important show for you tonight  as we anticipate the election of  a new pope and mourn the loss of  Pope Francis. If you'd like to  comment, send me an ex post. I'm  at Raymond Arroyo and at Arroyo  Grande Show on YouTube. The  papal posse are straight ahead.  But first, Pope Francis has been  buried at Saint Mary Major, and  the masses of the nine days of  mourning continue here in Rome.  What happens at the pole? The  sixth meeting hole each day? Are  these general congregation  meetings of the entire College  of Cardinals? Those will occur  right up until the conclave  starts next week. For more on  those meetings, the candidates  and where the cardinals are at  this point, I'm joined by  Vatican correspondent for the  National Catholic Register and  co-founder of the College of  Cardinals, Report.com Edward  Penton. Edward, great to see  you. Tell the audience about  these meetings. I mean, I've  always said this is really where  the business of the conclave  happens in these private  meetings. What's happening  there? What's been the reaction  of these cardinals?  >> Exactly? These meetings are  absolutely crucial, because this  is the time when the cardinals  really get a chance to, first of  all, lay out the challenges that  the next pope is going to face  and the challenges that they  think are the priorities. And  then also, they're going to look  at the particular candidates and  those that are suitable to  really deal with those  challenges. And so it really is  a kind of an opportunity for  them to really showcase what  they think is a priority. Well.  >> We saw Cardinal Bautista Ray  the other day during his funeral  homily for Pope Francis, and he  mourned his passing. He urged a  continuation of his legacy. How  was that received by the  Cardinals and those who live and  work here in Rome?  >> Right. Well, I think it was  very much an accurate  representation of what many feel  that he was a people's pope. You  know, he was somebody who cared  for the poor. That was very much  an emphasis of his homily. I  think there was some concern at  the end when he said, you know,  he asked us to pray for him, and  now he can pray for us from  heaven. Well, that really isn't  a strictly Catholic teaching  because we don't know if he's in  heaven. We have we hope that  he's in heaven, but we don't  know for sure.  >> You spoke to a Vatican  employee recently about this,  though, about Francis's passing?  Yes. Tell me about that.  >> Yes. Well, as many of us  know, there was a there was an  external perception of Francis,  which was quite different in  many ways to those who worked  with him. And I think there was  a strong sense during his  pontificate that it was a rather  oppressive atmosphere in the  Vatican. And this particular  official, when he was asked, how  do you feel now he's gone? He  said, I feel free. So there's a  sense that he was it was it was  a difficult time to work for hi,  because I think there was a  certain amount of arbitrariness  about his way of governing. He  didn't. You couldn't predict  what he was going to do? Yes.  And there were good aspects, of  course, but there was this, this  side, which was.  >> Well, you said it. There was  a disconnect, I think, between  the visual that the public got  and what the public perceived at  general audiences and papal  trips. And then the reality of  how he governed, which is  something I'm sure these  cardinals will be considering in  the days ahead. But originally,  we were hearing that the  conclave might be scheduled to  begin on May 5th, a day earlier  than canon law allows. Then,  after some discussion, the  General Congregation of  Cardinals set the date for May  7th. That's when the conclave  will begin. Why the extra two  days? Why are those important?  Ed and I know Benedict changed  the rules of elections so that  if all the electors were  present, they could move the  conclave up. That's right. Who  wanted to move it up?  >> Well, we don't know for sure,  but I think I think it was  really for those who. This is a  very big number of cardinals, I  don't think. I think it's the  biggest we've ever had. Cardinal  electors. And so they need that  time to get ready, to get ready  to have the discussions. We were  just talking about and really  just to be fully prepared for  what's coming. I think that was,  that was. And also, yes, it was.  Well.  >> These men don't know.  >> Each other exactly. They  don't know.  >> Each other. They're from far  flung parts of the world. They  represent very little  communities, which is something  that we don't talk about enough.  I mean, it's lovely that you've  made a cardinal from the  periphery, but some of these  guys have a thousand Catholics  in their entire purview. That's  that's that's half a small  parish in the States. So it's a  very odd I think they feel a bit  at sea. They don't know these  other men, and the other men  don't know them. So it's a  getting to know you period. But  again, the real work of the  conclave has already begun in  these general meetings. Ed,  we'll talk about this later in  the week, but there seems to be  an emerging divide. Those who  want to continue the Francis  legacy of Synodality suppression  of the Latin Mass, support for  migrants. I mean that that  became a big theme. And others  are saying this would be a  catastrophe, that the church is  in a moment of chaos and non  clarity. Where is their thinking  at this moment? The general  where what are the thoughts of  the cardinals as they're going  into this? And I guess who are  the major candidates.  >> Well, I mean it's quite  interesting that the Vatican has  been putting out these  statements about what they're  discussing. And as you say, it's  very much what the Francis  pontificate was about. It's  about migration and climate  change and synodality and these  things. But there isn't much  talk about what's needed, at  least not yet in a in a pope.  And the emphasis on the  spiritual, on on the pope being  not a temporal leader, not about  politics, not about these  temporal issues, but more about  guiding souls to the next life  and salvation of souls, whether  they move on to that, we don't  know, but at this stage. But  that's that, I think is  interesting.  >> Who are the primary  contenders on on each sides of  this divide, if you will, those  who want to continue Francis's  legacy, those who say, no, we  need a more doctrinaire pope who  reinforces the faith and brings  clarity out of this confusion.  >> Well, it's interesting. We'll  talk about this College of  Cardinals report in a second.  But but doing some of the  research into these Cardinals,  it is interesting that the vast  majority of Francis's picks all  have they all like one of these  issues, one of three or maybe  all three of these issues,  whether it's migration or  climate change or interreligious  dialog, these these have run  right through his picks. And so  that's why you're getting very  much an emphasis of these  things. And I think there's  perhaps a I don't say a lack of  balance. But there is certainly  more pushing that than there are  sort of the more traditional  things that we've seen before.  >> Well, we will keep watching  this in the days ahead. And I  have to say, your guy, you and  Diana montagna, it's an  indispensable guide. It's called  the Cardinals. College of  Cardinals. Report.com. And I  have to say, it's an exhaustive  treatment of each of these men.  And you really do get to know  them in a very broad way. It's  an indispensable resource. So  check it out. College of  Cardinals Report.com. And we'll  check in with you in the days  ahead. Thank you.  >> Thank you. Good to be with  you.  >> The first time I was able to  introduce my next guest was way  back in Rome, right here in  March of 2013. That was the  interregnum and conclave that  elected Pope Francis. With me  now once again, the papal posse,  Father Gerald Murray, Robert  Royle, delighted to have them  with us once again for insight  and analysis on the next  conclave and what lies ahead.  Gents, I want to begin. First of  all, it's great to be together  here in Rome. Give me a sense of  this, this period. We covered a  lot of the Francis legacy last  week. But my question first to  father, then to Bob. How is that  legacy being received by the  Cardinals here gathered 100 plus  of the of the 133 electors  chosen by Pope Francis himself.  >> Well, I go back to what  Archbishop Chaput wrote in First  Things. Candor is what's called  for at this time. And some of  the cardinals from the reports  that we're getting, are giving  critiques of what's being said  inside the general congregation.  >> But how is it being received?  >> Well, you know, that's a  question that we can't answer  until we see some of these  people come out and speak to the  media, because those discussions  are not open to the public.  Yeah, I will say this in  general, the, you know, the  appropriate prayers for the  repose of the soul. This this is  a time of mourning. So we keep  that in mind. But the cardinals  also know there's an awful lot  at stake here. You know, 13  years ago or 2013, rather, when  we were here, we never could  have foreseen where we'd be.  Now. The Pope did so many things  that were changes from his  predecessors. So what's what's  going to happen in the future? I  think that's the major question.  >> Bob, what are you hearing  from Cardinals here?  >> Well, look, we know that  there's been a debate about  whether there should be unity  going forward, whether there  should be some sort of consensus  about the choice of the next  figure. I think that the  criticism of that idea is  exactly right on that. What we  need right now is a bit more  openness in the way that we talk  about it. I'm not sure we're  getting it. What we hear from a  lot of people is there's still,  as you would expect, because so  many of these these cardinals  have been appointed by Pope  Francis, there's still that  lingering sense of being loyal  to the man who made them who  they are right now. But I think  as the days go on, and we know  that there are a lot of days  between now and the actual  beginning of the conclave. The  conclave is where they're going  to enter into the Sistine  Chapel.  >> A little under.  >> A week. Yeah. The for me, the  one thing that I'm a bit worried  about is a lot of these people  don't know one another. This is  not really the best time to get  to know one another. It would be  a lot better if they had spent  some years over the last decade  and more working on things  together, discussing things  together. But Francis didn't  really like getting the  Cardinals together so very much  so. There could be a lot of  surprises coming down. For now,  I think that there's a general  sense of loyalty to what has  been in the past, but I think  more and more we're going to  start to see some changes and  some different voices beginning  to come to the fore.  >> Well, the homilies during  these nine days of mourning are  fascinating because people will  remember. It was Benedict XVI  homily at the funeral of John  Paul the Second that sort of  sealed the deal for him. People  heard this and said, this is a  prophetic voice. It's a  continuation of the legacy.  Let's go with this. This week we  heard from Cardinal Giovanni  Battista Re, the dean of the  College of Cardinals. Here. He  preached at the funeral, but it  was a very different tone. It he  he drifted into very political  areas. And I want to read a  little of this for you, he said,  speaking of Pope Francis, his  gestures and exhortations in  favor of the refugees and  displaced persons are countless.  His insistence on working on  behalf of the poor was constant.  It is significant that Pope  Francis first journey was to  Lampedusa, an island that  symbolizes the tragedy of  emigration. I guess my question  is, Bob, I'll start with you.  Your thoughts on the entire. He  mentions walls build, build. We  can't build walls. We have to  build bridges with Trump and  world leaders right there. Did  that achieve anything?  >> I don't think it did. And in  fact, this may sound a little  harsh, but I think that the Holy  Father misread the moment in  history that actually what we've  seen over the last 12 years is  that countries here in Europe  and also in North America are  being inundated by illegal  immigration. I mean, this is one  of the most hot button issues,  not only in the United States,  as we know with the election of  President Trump, but here in  Italy, you have Giorgia meloni,  who's now the prime minister  who's a conservative and is  trying is trying for all of the  European Union to set up a kind  of policy that will restrict  this this unrestricted  immigration. And it's also a  problem in Austria and Germany.  Germany and France and England.  I think he misread that. And  this is I think he misread it  because he thought of it in  terms of not welcoming the  stranger or not being open to  others. Yes, that is part of  Christianity. But in policy  terms, most of most of the  developed countries simply  cannot take more immigration.  They can't integrate people who  are coming in, and it's causing  severe social tension.  >> Why lead with that at a.  >> Funeral, right? Absolutely.  >> Father, I have to ask you  about this. There was that coda  at the very end of Cardinal  Ray's homily, where he said,  Pope Francis asked us to pray  for him, but now we ask him to  pray for us. Your reaction to  that, and how do you think the  Cardinals of the College of  Cardinals receive that?  >> Well, you know, the  presumption if you ask him to  pray for us means he's already  in heaven. And the first message  of any Christian funeral is pray  for the soul of the deceased.  Because if he's in purgatory, we  want his time to be shortened.  We want him to be raised up to  the glory of heaven. Now there's  a pious and it's sort of a  Catholic tradition that the  souls in purgatory can pray for  us. So not necessarily  indicating that he's canonizing  him, but sad to say, at  funerals, and this is a common  critique, you go to a funeral  instead of praying for the soul.  Everybody is canonized. So no,  we leave the prayers of all of  the faithful in the hands of  God, including for Pope Francis.  But yeah, I was a little  unhappy. To be honest, we  shouldn't be assuming that neede  because he's already in heaven.  >> Well, some saw this as sort  of rush to the conclave and say,  look, we have this saintly pope.  We need to continue his his  agenda and his vision for the  church.  >> Well, you know, as the Jesuit  general said, the Pope is the  successor of Peter, not of  Francis. So continuity has got  to be with the original message  of Christ given to the apostles.  And inasmuch as Francis had some  difficult teachings which we've  discussed over the years, we  don't want any blanket  endorsement saying everything  that's happened now, nothing can  be changed. No, that would be a  mistake.  >> German Cardinal Walter Kasper  gave an interview this week with  La Repubblica, giving his $0.02  on the kind of man he believes  should succeed Pope Francis. He  said the people of God have  already voted at the funeral,  and they have called for  continuity with Francis  Kasper's, 92 years old. He's a  non-voting member of the  college, caused a lot of mayhem  during that family synod, where  he was the primary advocate for  granting communion to divorced  and remarried people without an  annulment. Your thoughts,  father? First, do you get the  impression that that's what the  crowd was saying as they  witnessed the funeral here and  around the world?  >> No, the crowd was expressing  Catholic piety and devotion to  the successor of Peter,  gratitude for the many good  things that Pope Francis did.  Gratitude, you know, very much  so for his final days when he  suffered and yet came out to see  the people, how touching it was  to see the Pope greeting  children who were presented to  him on that at the mass there on  Easter Sunday. No, it's  presumptuous and a little bit of  politicking to say the crowd has  spoken. Nothing more needs to be  said. No, a lot more needs to be  said.  >> Your reaction to that and I,  I keep thinking of Archbishop  Chaput, who said, this is a time  for full candor and in full  candor. I have to say, the  numbers don't bear that out.  Talk to that.  >> Yeah. You know, I was here  for the beatification of John  Paul II, not the canonization. I  think we all did.  >> We anchored.  >> It, and my wife and I were  staying in an apartment over  here in Piazza Risorgimento. We  couldn't get outside of the  apartment. There were millions  of people all over this area. I  came over for the funeral the  other day and look, it was a  moving event. It always is when  there's a pope involved. But if  it were not for all the young  people and the young people who  are here, by the way, were not  here for the Pope. This they  were here because they were  scheduled for the canonization  of Carlo Acutis. That's right.  So, you know, it was a nice feel  that there were young people  here, but they weren't here  exactly for him and the crowd.  You know, you don't want to base  too much on the size of a crowd,  because crowd sizes are always  disputed in events like this.  But I don't know how Cardinal  Kasper, who is distant and let's  say a bit elderly, was able to  gauge where the church ought to  go on the basis of who happened  to be here in the square  Wednesday.  >> Audience attendance and  coming here for the Angelus.  Those numbers you can look up.  They were vastly down from  Benedict and John Paul II vastly  down. And I won't get into them.  But we should mention the  historic procession of Pope  Francis's body through Rome to  his chosen place of rest, Saint  Mary Major Basilica, the first  such procession since Pius the  12th and the first pope to be  buried outside the Vatican since  Leo the 13th over 100 years ago.  So, Bob, how significant was the  decision by Francis, even in  death, to separate himself from  his predecessors? He wanted to  be buried not here at the  grottos of the Vatican. But.  >> Yeah. Well, I mean, look, a  lot, a lot of people are  critical of that. They think  it's him trying to show himself  as different than everybody else  and even his tombstone, because  it's so simple. They're critical  of that. I'm a little bit  skeptical that that's the right  way to read it. We know that  every before and after every  trip he took outside of the  Vatican, he went to worship with  Our Lady Salvation of the Roman  people. He had a very strong  devotion to Our Lady and that  particular icon of the Virgin  for the Roman people. So I think  we need to cut him a little  slack about that. And look, it's  a very beautiful church. There.  It I don't want to politicize  everything. I think that's it.  >> I want to add anything.  >> To that. Yeah. No, I agree  with Bob. You can't read  everything that you think into  one simple action. But I will  say I was very touched watching  that coverage of all the Romans  who lined the route. There were  so many people with families out  there, and they were Romans,  because this was going through  different neighborhoods from  where the tourists usually go,  the pilgrims. So it was very  moving. I mean, there's great  love for the Pope, whether you  agree or disagree with things  that he did and that was  expressed, I think, by the  Catholic world.  >> Yeah, there there are 135  electors that could come to the  conclave. Two have now said one  from Spain, one from Kenya. They  are bowing out due to illness.  So there will be 133 men here,  both of them considered to be  traditional. What impact, if  any, do you think that has on  the outcome here?  >> You could say numerically,  not that much. But their  presence, of course, is missing  and their contributions to the  discussions, the pre-conclave  discussions. So no, it's always  a shame when a cardinal can't  make it because of illness or  extreme age. So now the Holy  Spirit has got to work with a  smaller group.  >> Yeah, well, and it's a this  is a group of people who really  don't know each other. I mean,  that's the thing I keep hearing.  I know Cardinals going in for  the first time and they're like,  they feel totally at sea. Some  of them were just made cardinals  recently in the last year.  >> Yeah. You know, I also think  it's regrettable we sometimes  have talked about Pope Francis  as not particularly appreciating  the United States, but we really  should have more Americans in  the room who are going to be  voting.  >> Why do.  >> You say that? Well, we don't  have a cardinal from Baltimore.  We don't have one from  Philadelphia. We don't have one  from Los Angeles, which is a  huge diocese. And one would have  expected that the archbishop  there, who is Hispanic, would  Jose Gomez would have been made  a cardinal. And instead, what we  have are some of those McCarrick  cardinals that, let's say, are  problematic groups. So yeah,  it's too bad that those two  aren't here, but there are  others who also are missing in  an interesting way. Yeah.  >> It was announced this week  that Cardinal Reinhard Marx,  Cardinal Louis Tagle and  Cardinal Dominique Mamberti were  all selected by the College of  Cardinals in this general  congregation to assist the  Camerlengo. The Camerlengo is  sort of the administrator,  Cardinal Kevin Farrell. They  will be responsible for  organizing the conclave. Now,  Cardinal Marx is a major player  in the German Synodal Way. We've  talked about him for years now.  Toggle in the Philippines is  considered to be a frontrunner  for the next pope. And Cardinal  Mamberti of France is also the  protodeacon of the college and  will announce to the world we  have a Pope. Habemus Papam your  thoughts on this group so close  to the organization of the of  this conclave process? I think  they were chosen at random.  >> Yeah, I'm not sure how that  happened, but they're all  insiders, we could say, of the  Roman Curia. So it represents  the curial importance in doing  this. It makes a lot of sense  that people are going to be  doing protocol. Things would be  familiar with the way things  operate here, but it would have  been nice if somebody was picked  who was a diocesan bishop from,  you know, a non-European  continent.  >> Or what are your thoughts?  >> Yeah. I don't have a lot of  thoughts, frankly, about this. I  mean, we I think we have to see  from the results whether this is  actually some sort of  substantive move to shape the  way that the conclave is going  to take place, or whether it's  just the kind of inside, as  father is talking about insiders  who know a bit about procedure.  >> I don't want to wade too  deeply into this, but we do have  to talk about a few of the  candidates we mentioned Cardinal  Tagle of the Philippines, whom I  interviewed back in 2014 about  the family Synod and how it was  even then wrestling with this  idea of granting communion to  divorced and remarried  Catholics. Listen to this. Is it  possible to envision a policy  that would allow Catholics to  divorce and remarry without an  annulment, given the church  teaching and Christ's teaching  on the indissolubility of  marriage? Is it possible?  >> I just came from a meeting of  the preparatory committee for  the. This. The following things  are very clear. The teaching of  Jesus and the teaching of the  church will not be changed. No,  what people are looking at right  now, especially the Canonists is  this. No. How could canon law,  how could canon law and its  procedures no reflect more  clearly? You know, the teaching  of Jesus Christ, you know, and  the teaching of the church  because some some people are  claiming that the canonical  procedures are too rigid, too  rigid, and also some are even  asking, do the canonical  prescriptions, are they clear  about the doctrinal basis, or is  the legal canonical path taking  its own way quite separately  from the doctrinal dimension?  >> Father, is canon law this  malleable? I mean, let's start  with have the teachings of Jesus  Christ and the church changed in  this area? I mean, Tagle said.  It's not changing.  >> But no, the teaching cannot  change. The teaching is that  divorce and remarriage means  you're in an adulterous second  relationship. Adultery is a  mortal sin. You're objectively  living in a sinful state. If you  perjure in an adulterous second  union. The charity of the church  is to tell people you don't have  to remain in mortal sin. You can  leave mortal sin. But if you  are, if you're consciously  disobeying God's law, you cannot  receive communion. Now,  defending Catholic teaching is  not rigidity or legalism, and in  fact, it's frustrating and  infuriating after so many years,  sad to say, of being called  backwards Pharisees, rigid  people. The law based on the  gospel is life giving. This  isn't the ancient law of, you  know, all the little rules and  regulations about how you walk  and where you stand. This is  about, do I follow what Jesus  said? Or do I say I have a new  and improved version? So yeah,  rigidity is a slam word. It's  used against people want to  uphold the teaching. I hope that  disappears from the vocabulary.  >> What do you make of his  candidacy? Some are saying he's  Francis 2.0.  >> Yeah, I think that that's  generally the case. And, you  know, it's sort of typical of  many of the things that we've  had to talk about over the past  few years. What he said about  that, because, you know, Jesus  comes along in a, in a Jewish  society that permits divorce and  remarriage very easily. So he  was stepping out and saying,  we're going to do, you know,  we're something different. I  mean, Moses let you do that  because you were weak. But  that's not how it was from the  beginning. We remember that back  in one of the early synods on  the family, there was a Latin  American cardinal who said, we  need to get back to the to the  teachings of Moses, as if, you  know, we could jump back over  Jesus because we want to we want  to be merciful toward other  people. It's a nonsensical thing  that they're trying to push, but  they they're technically okay.  If you look at the language of  these documents, it's kind of  technically they don't step  over, but they go right up to  the implication is always  something beyond.  >> Well, the implication is  practically, you can do whatever  the hell you want. I'm  paraphrasing here, this isn't  the document. Practically, you  can do what you want, but we  don't agree with that entirely.  But go ahead. You can still go  to communion. I mean, it it is  contradictory. And isn't that  the heart? Let's just say it.  That really is at the heart of  the Francis pontificate. It's  the contradiction. We're not  changing anything, but  everything practically has  changed.  >> Well, let's say blessing gay  couples, okay? We were told the  church blesses everybody. It's  true. We do. We don't ask. But  when two people come together  who are involved in a sexual  relationship, which is  inherently immoral, and they ask  for a blessing as a couple,  they're wearing rings they put  on at their civil marriage  ceremony. Blessing them is  saying people engage in sodomy,  are blessed in that capacity  because they they're doing it  together and we're going to  bless them together. Wrong. That  has the next if the next pope  doesn't change that, we're going  to have a very serious crisis in  the church.  >> We're going to turn into  Anglicanism.  >> Yeah. I mean, I've put this I  wrote a column about this  earlier in the week called  mercy, mercy, mercy as the title  of the song goes. And, you know,  and mercy is, of course, is a  central concept of both Judaism  and Christianity. We believe in  a merciful God, but we also  believe in a God of justice, of  truth, of fidelity. And so any  one of those, those virtues  absent, the other virtues, if  that gets running wild, that's  when you get into difficulties.  All those must be kept in play  at the same time. So we have  truth, truth that is faithful to  the gospel but is also merciful.  >> This whole thing, the  conclave we're about to witness  and the whole lead up seems to  be. And I've talked to a lot of  cardinals in my two days here.  There seems to be a showdown  over the Synodal Way, whether  the new way of deciding doctrine  and governing the church will  continue or die. But do the  traditional cardinals have a  candidate?  >> Good question. We can read.  You know what's said. I think  there are some outstanding  figures who are there who would  very clearly say, we must return  to a defense of the hierarchical  nature of the church. I'll let  you name the people, but I'll  say this. You have to know  theology and canon law to be a  competent cardinal. Those that  don't need to study and those  that don't know need to listen  to ones who have studied you.  Back to Synodality the idea that  we want to involve laypeople in  life of the church, that's so  obvious, everybody knows it.  Well, we don't say is you're  equal to a shepherd, so you get  to go to a synod and the  cardinal has the same vote as a  grandma. I love grandmas, but  they're not cardinals. They're  not. I don't.  >> Want them cooking for me.  >> I don't know, cardinals in  the kitchen.  >> Stay out of the kitchen.  Leave that to mama. Your  thoughts on this question of the  Synodality showdown that we're  kind.  >> Of seeing? It's my belief  that we're going to get a  modification of mercy with the  next pope, probably with a  reintroduction of some other  elements. And I would not be  surprised if Synodality just  sort of shuffled off this mortal  coil, because I don't think it  means anything. I don't think it  does anything. It's kind of a  flag that you can remain  faithful to, but whether it's  really going to be part of the  central self-understanding of  the church going forward,  especially because in spite of  the number of cardinals that the  Pope has appointed, I think  there's there could be some  surprises here. We know that God  is a God of surprises, as Pope  Francis told us, and a lot of  these men are not tried and true  men. We may find that there's a  dynamic within the conclave that  we're not aware of yet at this  point.  >> I want to move on to Cardinal  Joseph Zen Cardinal Sarah  Cardinal Raymond Burke all  addressed these congregations  this week, and I am told their  comments were spiritual. They  voiced some concern about the  Francis legacy, but I'm told  they were not warmly received by  the overall congregation. Your  reaction and why you think that  might be happening?  >> Well, if that's the case,  maybe they were a little bit  stunned to hear what they were  hearing, but perhaps they were  just reflecting on what was  said. As always, restating  Catholic teaching doesn't  necessarily produce immediate  applause, but it does give  people a basis to recenter. And  if you're kind of a radical who  want to change a lot of things  now, they have some arguments  they have to respond to. And in  all intellectually honest people  just don't ignore what's smart  and faithful people have to tell  them.  >> Yeah. Do you want to comment  at.  >> All on that? Yeah. I think  that we recall the conclave that  Francis was elected at. It was  during his intervention that he  actually rose to greater  prominence as a candidate for  the papacy. Some people go so  far as to say that it was the  intervention, as they call these  speeches, that he gave during  that, that general congregation  that really kind of clinched  things for him and put him at  the forefront. I think that we  keep saying that these cardinals  are very new to the job. A lot  of them, they don't know a lot  about other people. And so it  may just be that they were  shocked that there was a kind of  a another line that that people  were pursuing. I mean, we heard  from Parolin, Cardinal Parolin,  that we need to continue the  line of mercy, which I think is  correct. But is there anything  else, I mean, some other things  that are going to be brought.  >> I'm so glad you brought him  up because that was going to be  my next question. We've got to  get into some of these  candidates. I don't want to get  too deep, but we owe it to the  audience to at least talk about  the people who are being most  talked about here in Rome and  who we're hearing Secretary of  State Pietro Parolin. I guess he  lost the job when Pope Francis  died. But Parolin, who was  secretary of state, considered a  major contender at this  conclave, he was, of course, one  of the architects of the Vatican  China deal that we've been  talking about for years. He's  the keeper of that agreement.  Your thoughts on that candidacy  and what it might mean to the  papacy?  >> Well, he's the best known  cardinal because he's been, you  know, as cardinal secretary of  state in in the news. Certainly  all the cardinals in Rome would  meet him when they were made.  >> Cardinals know.  >> Him well known. And he was  the one that Pope Francis  entrusted his agenda,  particularly on the question of  the China deal. But that's also,  you know, something that he's  bearing now around his neck,  responsibility for turning over  to the Chinese Communist Party,  the selection of bishops. And we  just heard the news yesterday  that the Communist Party  instrument, which is the  schismatic Patriotic  Association, has appointed two  more bishops. So the China, the  China deal number one never made  public, which is not a good  thing. And then secondly, the  results have not been a  restraint on the part of the  Chinese Communists from  exercising control. So that deal  has to be renounced by the next  pope. I don't think Cardinal  Parolin would do that. Hopefully  if he is elected, he'll modify  it. But that's part of his  legacy that he'll have to, you  know, bear as something that the  Cardinals will consider in their  thoughts.  >> Bob Cardinal Parolin in this  square the other day, he was it  was a mass for youth, and he  wore a miter that Pope Francis  wore. I'm told by people who  were there. It was.  >> It was jarring.  >> Yeah. It didn't quite.  >> Play with him. Well, you  know, some of the Cardinals that  I trust that I've been talking  with here regret that the, the  new Cardinals don't know each  other very much. And that's an  internal church matter. But some  of them have also said they're  worried that some of the  cardinals from the peripheries  aren't that much aware of  secular questions. And of  course, the Chinese question is  both a kind of a secular and an  intra church matter. To me, it's  a great hindrance. I mean, you  have to think through very  carefully about Cardinal, why he  did that. We know that Cardinal  McCarrick also was involved in  those negotiations. So what  element? I hope someday we'll  find out what exactly that that  role was that he played. But  it's not solely the fact that  the Cardinals are not aware of  some of the controversies within  the church or sensitive to them.  I think they also need to be  sensitive to the church in the  world, and it will be  interesting to see if that  element begins to emerge during  the conclave.  >> As well. There's some other  candidates we're hearing about,  Cardinal Pierbattista  Pizzaballa, the Patriarch of  Jerusalem, a Franciscan who's  navigated that very difficult  place between the Palestinians  and the Israelis with that  fledgling Christian community  that has been trying to hold  together. Your thoughts on his  candidacy?  >> No, I think it's a serious  candidacy. I think he's a  serious man, a man of prayer.  He's a man of belief, and he's a  man who's had to exercise a  political role in the sense of  dealing with secular  governments, trying to defend  the interests of Christians. On  the other hand, recognizing the  horrors that have been  perpetrated against the  Israelis. No, it's he's a  serious candidate in my book.  >> He's an Italian, which is an  odd thing for a patriarch of  Jerusalem. He's an Italian,  which they thought would never  happen again. After all, the  Palestinians were elected to  that post. He's also a biblical  scholar. I've known him for  about 25 years, and he's just a  very sober citizen. You know,  he's a realist, but he's also a  man of deep faith. And he  believes, in fact, that the Holy  Land is the gospel and is the  center of the church, which is  an interesting conception  considering where we're seeing  where we're now and where he'll  be voting in a few days.  >> You know, some people are  objecting to the fact that he's  young. He's he's about 60,  something like that. Right. We  were talking about this the  other day, you recall, and it  just struck me that Pope John  Paul II was elected at 58 years  old. And God bless him, I mean,  those years were great years for  the Catholic Church and for the  world. I mean, he helped bring  down communism in the Soviet  Union. So I hope that that fact  I mean, obviously, if you're  going to elect someone who's  younger, you're you're kind of  saying, we're going to expect  you to be around for a while,  but I hope that isn't a factor  that plays too large a role. I  think they ought to look very  carefully at him and make a  decision on the basis of who  that person is and what they're  likely to do in the role. And  for my money, he's pretty  strong.  >> Yeah. He's he I think he  could emerge as an important  compromise candidate between the  Italians and those who want to  continue Francis's legacy and,  and more traditionalists who are  very concerned about the drift  in the teaching and the doctrine  and the clarity of the faith,  particularly when you have all  these young people coming to the  faith all around the world  converting, wanting baptism.  They're seeking something. They  want something solid and  lasting. They don't want this  kind of felt banner guitar mask  nonsense, perpetual dialog. Any  predictions? By the next time we  sit here, we will not be part of  the live coverage of so many of  these events here at EWTN. So  we'll be back next Thursday. But  my question is, do you have any  predictions? Because when we  next return, the conclave will  have begun.  >> Not a prediction, but I can  express a hope that we will get  a cardinal who is going to  return to the line of Catholic  thinking and action that John  Paul II and Benedict led us in.  And one of the most inspiring  figures in that is Cardinal  Serra from Guinea. So I pray  that his influence in the  election will be such that we  get a cardinal who would reflect  what Cardinal Sarah has also  said in his book, God or  Nothing. The Catholic Church  exists to promote God's teaching  and presence in the world.  Anything else is a distraction.  >> The Africans will have a big  influence.  >> Yes.  >> That's the vibrancy.  >> And I say amen to everything  that you just said. If I were to  predict, I wouldn't want to  predict too much about who's  going to be the next pope or.  But I think we're going to see a  number of diverse voices between  now and then. I'd be surprised  if there is this kind of  monochromatic. Yeah, continuity  sort of tone that comes out of  the discussions in these general  congregations. I think people  are going to become a little bit  bolder as we go along. They're  going to be people supporting  maybe some unlikely candidates,  and it will be an interesting  thing when we reconvene.  >> Yeah, I can't wait.  Gentlemen. Papal posse, thank  you for being here. It's an  honor to always be with you. We  will leave it there, but we'll  have daily updates on the Arroyo  Grande Show on YouTube. The  entire cast and crew here. I  want to explore a few of the  candidates that we just touched  on today. We'll get into more  depth there. Robert Royal,  father, Gerald Murray, thank you  as always, my friend.  >> Thank you Raymond.  >> Thank you Raymond. Yep. We'll  reconvene soon. Joining me now  with his thoughts and  reflections on the legacy of  Pope Francis, as well as the  qualities he feels should be  considered when choosing the  next pope, is the former chief  of doctrine here at the Vatican.  Gerhard. Cardinal Mueller, your  eminence, thank you for being  here. Now, you've been a  cardinal. This isn't your first  time as a cardinal elector. Oh,  this is it. Oh, I thought you  voted in the last one. That's  right. But you're attending  these general congregation  meetings which happen behind us  every day in the lead up to the  to the conclave. Tell me, what  is the spirit of those meetings?  I know you can't discuss what's  what's the actual words, but  what is the spirit there? And  how receptive have the Cardinals  been to criticisms of Pope  Francis's papacy?  >> I think it's a brotherly  spirit. And everybody is aware  of the great responsibility  everybody has for the future of  the Catholic Church. And we know  that we are not politicians  deciding, according to the mass  media categories and politician  categories. But we have to look  what is Jesus himself saying? He  gives the first definition for  all time. Who is Simon? But was  only the first pope and now he  is Peter. Peter, what is said  about Peter in the New  Testament? And that is decisive  and the most important task of  the Pope is to unite all  Christians in the confession to  Jesus Christ, the son of the  living God.  >> Yeah. Now you've heard the  reaction, I know you. You went  out early and said, we need  unity now. We need unity. And  some have come out. Cardinal  Michael Czerny said. It means  reversal. He said, what you're  asking for unity means reversal.  It means a new introversion.  Your reaction to that?  >> Yeah, that is very  superficial. Interpretations of  non theologians. But it's not  the question behind before,  above or on the bottom, but the  question of our closeness to  Jesus Christ and this about the  truth of the gospel is valid for  all the times and for every  body. And this thinking in this  categories of liberalism or  conservativism, this is. A wrong  application of wrong categories  to the church, which is not a  human organization made by us  and by shaped by our thinkings,  but by Jesus Christ is a body of  Christ, a temple of the Holy  Spirit, and therefore the unity  is one of the first is the first  attribute to the church. And  Jesus said, you must be one like  the disciples, like I am one  with the father. That is a  theological conception of unity  and not a political statement.  >> Yeah. Your eminence, what  what's your greatest fear going  into this conclave? You've said,  I'm going to quote you here. You  fear you've spoken about the  possibility of schism and even a  heretical pope. Does that haunt  you?  >> Yeah, that's a question is  always also in the past, that  candidate is thinking about the  papacy only in the terms of  political power and influence,  in influence and the reaction of  the masses to be beloved by the  people. That is not what Jesus  wanted. Jesus was died on the  cross in the contradiction to  the world, and therefore the  basis attribute for every Pope  must be the orthodoxy to have  the sound doctrine which is  given to the church by the  apostles. And this is a  criteria.  >> That how we get to unity. You  think we need a Pope who brings  clarity to the fore?  >> Yeah, the clarity is given by  Jesus Christ. Your words shall  not be yes and tomorrow no. But  our yes should be a yes or no or  no.  >> Yeah. I want to explore  something you said in an  interview with the New York  Times. You said Pope Francis,  this is his style to divide. All  dictators are dividing. Do you  believe Pope Francis ruled in a  dictatorial way? Contradictory  way as well?  >> Well, not dictatorial way,  but cannot say he had his own  character. And sometimes he made  decisions. People didn't  understand why they didn't  listen, the reasons why he made  this decisions. And we cannot  always say like some bodies is  saying the Pope has every time  the last word, there's a wrong  understanding of papacy is not  an absolute monarch. It's not a  caliph of Baghdad or anything  else. Like we have enough of  these types in the politics.  What we need, what is needed is  a good pastor.  >> To protect the doctrine of  faith.  >> The doctrine of faith. This  is first task. Therefore it's  given. The Pope is after the  definition of the First and  Second Vatican Council, the  principle of the unity of all  the bishops and faithful in the  truth, the revealed truth of  Jesus Christ.  >> How receptive are your  brother cardinals to these  ideas? Do they see it the same  way, or is there hostility?  >> I didn't spoke with  everybody, but I think if they  have studied theology in a good  way, they can read it in the  doctrine of the last councils.  >> Yeah. You were one of the  most foremost critics, really,  of the synod on Synodality. This  entire approach of governing the  church. It was the cornerstone  of Pope Francis's legacy. And  recently, the German bishops  published a four page document  blessing couples in irregular  unions, including homosexual  couples, those who are divorced  and remarried and without  annulments go to communion. This  flows directly directly from  Pope Francis's vision in Amoris  Laetitia and other documents. It  really is part and parcel of  Synodality your reaction to  this? Almost the extension of  the Synodal Way now in your own  Germany.  >> Synodality is an old  principle. It's not a it's not  invented by Pope Francis. But we  need a wrong, right  understanding. If they have the  Protestants as also with the  other ecclesiology, also synods  and synodality, and we have to  interpret it in the Catholic  sense. And the Catholic synods  existed five, 1500 years before  the Protestantism. The  Protestantism is not the model  for shaping the Catholic faith,  and we have to look to our own  sources and our our own  criteria. Pope Francis made  Irenaeus of Lyon church father,  and he was writing against the  Gnostics. And there we have a  new form of Gnosticism and not  of Catholic understanding. And  he asked me to write a book  against this modern Gnosticism  and wrong understanding of  Catholic doctrine, of Catholic,  of the church and against the  Pelagianism. He he offered also  a document, but surely the  so-called Progressists didn't  care. The documents and the  doctrine of Pope Francis when it  was close to their ideas, they  ignored him when he spoke  against abortion, when he said,  only the matrimony is a legal  form of living together of one  man and one woman. They ignored  it. They made a very selected  interpretation of Pope Francis.  >> After talking to your brother  Cardinals this past week, do you  believe we're looking at the end  of synodality this approach,  where the laity are invited in  and atheists are invited in and  everybody comes in, do you think  we'll go back to actual bishops  meeting alone?  >> No. We have two forms. One is  the Synod of the bishops. It's  an expression  institutionalization of the  collegiality of the bishops. And  the other hand, we have. A  synodal assembly with all  together and the highest form of  synodality is the Holy  Eucharist. When we all are  together and we cannot forget  the Eucharist as the center and  the basis of our living  together, and not only speaking  about anything and to make  yourself interesting, because I.  I am calling here together with  the bishops.  >> So you think this this vision  of a synodal church where the  laity and bishops are coming  together. You think it's the end  of that or. No.  >> Yeah. Always together at the  Eucharist and the sacraments and  but the Magisterium by Jesus  Christ, the head of the church,  is only given to the ordained  bishops whose head is visible,  head is the Pope, and the church  cannot change the constitution  of the church. And we won't  change the constitution of the  church. This is a destruction of  the church. Like the Protestants  in the 16th century, they  changed the doctrine about the  church and therefore they split  it away from the church. We have  not the possibility to modernize  the church according to the  ideas of the world is given in  the old and the New Testament.  What is the people of God?  >> You know, as I look at this,  Your Eminence, in the previous  two conclaves, there were  particular individuals that were  sort of rising to the fore. We  knew who they were before they  went into conclave. This  conclave, you don't seem to see  a coalescing of two figures here  and two figures there. It's much  more spreadas the effect that  there was no assembly, no coming  together, no unions of the  cardinals since ten years.  Everybody knows the name of the  other and the face. But not we  didn't spoke. We had not  exchange of our opinions of our  our visions. And that was a lack  know and therefore it's a fault  and we need everybody said it in  the coming pontificate. We need  more reunions of the Cardinals  every year because college Holy  College of the Cardinals of the  Roman Church is the first senate  of the Pope, and the Pope, as a  single person, cannot know  everything he needs the good  advices and different  perspectives of the cardinals.  >> Your eminence, I can remember  sitting here 12 years ago and  talking to a number of cardinals  before and after the conclave,  Pope Francis was elected as a  reformer to reform the Vatican  bureaucracy here, the Curia, and  to reform the finances of the  Catholic Church. Did he deliver  on those promises, in your  opinion?  >> Yeah. This Vatican State is  not is not belonging essentially  to the mission of the Pope given  by Jesus Christ is a aspect on,  on the inside. And I cannot, as  theologian, I cannot understand  that Pope Pope is elected to  reform the Vatican. The Vatican  is only a civil organization, is  not belonging to the Catholic  Church. The church is a body of  Christ and not a worldly civil  administration is only in favor  in service for the Holy See, but  is not an ecclesial organization  of not belonging to the church.  Yeah.  >> And it's in trouble now. I  mean, financially it's in  trouble.  >> Yeah, it is surely. But this  is not it's not the task of the  Pope to make an order. But they  have enough experts and they  should do it. Not the Pope, but  the preach the gospel and not to  take the money.  >> Yeah.  >> This is.  >> Keep your priorities in  place.  >> The success of Saint Peter  and not the successor of Judas,  who had.  >> The money.  >> The money. Back. Always those  people with the money. Be  careful.  >> The problem. Well, tell me  what qualities as we wrap up  here. What qualities are you  looking for as you go into this  conclave and ultimately cast  your vote?  >> It has objective qualities  Christological, ecclesiological,  and also the personal qualities  must be a person of equivalence,  not authoritarian and not  anything goes, but must a good  personality, conscious of his  dignity. And he must. Be every  all the time, needs a good  spirituality. But spirituality  is not only moving your eyes  around, but the spirituality is  living in the Holy Spirit, in  the Spirit of Jesus Christ, who  is with us and with the power of  the grace and the Holy Spirit.  Everybody can do his duty right.  >> Your eminence, Gerhard  Mueller, thank you for being  here. We'll be watching you and  we'll check in with you after  the conclave. Thank you so much.  This week, I sat down with  Pulitzer Prize winning  playwright David Mamet on the  Arroyo Grande podcast. We talked  about the state of the arts, the  roots of his particular Mamet  speak, and even faith. His new  movie, Henry Johnson, hits  theaters and streaming May 9th.  Take a look.  >> Tell me.  >> I've always been fascinated.  You had a religious conversion,  a deepening, a return to your  your faith. And I know you. You  are serious about it. How did  that change the way you approach  your writing and the subjects of  that writing?  >> Well, I don't think it  changed that. It changed the  vast amount of everything else  in my life. But I don't think it  changed the Dennis Prager said  something wonderful. He said he  doesn't believe in the Torah  because of God. He believes in  God because of the Torah, not  genius.  >> Wow.  >> That's how I feel.  >> You believe in God because  of.  >> The Torah?  >> I believe in God anyway.  Because, I mean, I look around  and as John Kennedy would say,  the only thing not made in China  is the world.  >> Yeah. That's right.  >> The full Arroyo Grande  interview with David Mamet is on  YouTube at Arroyo Grande Show or  wherever you get your podcasts,  and I'll be doing daily updates  on the YouTube channel. Be sure  to check that out. The papal  posse will join me and  subscribe. I don't want you to  miss an episode of the Arroyo  Grande Show only on YouTube. Or  you can go to Raymond arroyo.com  for the links. That is all the  time we have for now. Be sure to  catch us next week. Robert  Royal, Father Gerald Murray and  the return of the conclave  edition of the show. Until next  week, we will be scouting the  world over for all that is seen  and unseen. On behalf of the  staff and crew of EWTN news, I'm  Raymond Arroyo from Rome.  >> Bye now.  >> From EWTN Global Catholic  Network. This is EWTN News  Nightly."}]