[Roundtable Discussion] 228: From Atrocity to Transitional Justice in Taiwan
University of Washington Taiwan Studies Program
[{'start': '4.160', 'end': '9.760', 'text': 'Good evening everyone Um and welcome to the UDub\xa0\nTaiwan Studies Arts and Culture um program special'}, {'start': '9.760', 'end': '17.040', 'text': 'round table 228 from atrocity to transitional\xa0\njustice in Taiwan Um this event is part of a'}, {'start': '17.040', 'end': '22.080', 'text': "um 228 memorial series featuring two round\xa0\ndiscussions one in English the one you're"}, {'start': '22.080', 'end': '27.920', 'text': "here today Um and there's another one in Mandarin\xa0\nand alongside um two film screening in a pop-up"}, {'start': '27.920', 'end': '34.240', 'text': 'ex exhibition at the um East Asia Library So if\xa0\nyou have the time definitely check them out And'}, {'start': '34.240', 'end': '39.360', 'text': "um my name is Ellen Chang I'm director of arts\xa0\nand culture at the Taiwan studies program Tonight"}, {'start': '39.360', 'end': '45.920', 'text': "we're joined by three very special guests who\xa0\nwill each offer perspectives on the 228 incident"}, {'start': '45.920', 'end': '52.640', 'text': 'exploring how public institutions um academia\xa0\neducation and cultural production contribute'}, {'start': '52.640', 'end': '58.480', 'text': 'to representing and remembering both lived\xa0\nexperiences and collective memory So together'}, {'start': '58.480', 'end': '64.480', 'text': "we'll consider um how these different approaches\xa0\ncontinue to shape Taiwan's ongoing process of"}, {'start': '64.480', 'end': '70.480', 'text': "um transition transitional justice So I'll\xa0\nfirst introduce our and give a brief overview"}, {'start': '70.480', 'end': '77.120', 'text': 'of our format and I will step aside and let\xa0\nthis let our experts speak So before we begin'}, {'start': '77.120', 'end': '82.480', 'text': 'um I would like to first thank our co-presenter\xa0\nfor this series um the 228 Memorial Foundation'}, {'start': '82.480', 'end': '90.320', 'text': 'in Taiwan and the UDub East Asia Library So our\xa0\nfirst speaker is Dr Shiu Wen-Tang. Dr Shiu holds'}, {'start': '90.320', 'end': '96.720', 'text': 'a PhD from Université de Paris-Diderot VII and is\xa0\na retired associate research fellow at academia'}, {'start': '96.720', 'end': '102.160', 'text': 'sinica institute of modern history His expertise\xa0\nincludes the diplomatic history of the republic'}, {'start': '102.160', 'end': '109.440', 'text': 'of China the 228 incident in Taiwan Sino French\xa0\nrelations and Sinovent Vietnamese relations He'}, {'start': '109.440', 'end': '116.800', 'text': 'has also serves as president from 2021 to 2022\xa0\nand secretary general from 2023 to 2024 of the'}, {'start': '116.800', 'end': '123.040', 'text': 'Taiwan Association of University Professors Shiu\xa0\nnext um we will hear from Dr James Lin our very'}, {'start': '123.040', 'end': '128.640', 'text': 'own associate chair of the Taiwan studies program\xa0\nDr Lin is a historian of Taiwan and its intercon'}, {'start': '128.640', 'end': '136.160', 'text': 'interactions with the world in the 20th century\xa0\nhis book in a global vanguard agrarian development'}, {'start': '136.160', 'end': '140.800', 'text': 'and the making of modern Taiwan which was just\xa0\nvery recently um published by the University'}, {'start': '140.800', 'end': '146.800', 'text': 'of California Press examines rural reform and\xa0\nagricultural science in China and Taiwan from'}, {'start': '146.800', 'end': '152.320', 'text': 'the early 20th century through the post-war era\xa0\nThen is subsequent reimagining during Chinese'}, {'start': '152.320', 'end': '158.720', 'text': 'development missions to Africa Asia and Latin\xa0\nAmerica from the 1950s onward And finally we'}, {'start': '158.720', 'end': '164.960', 'text': 'are very honored to have Dr um Sylvia Lin . Dr Lin\xa0\nwith us um formerly associate professor of Chinese'}, {'start': '164.960', 'end': '170.800', 'text': 'at the University of Notre Dame Dr Lin is now a\xa0\nfreelance translator In her previous incarnation'}, {'start': '170.800', 'end': '176.880', 'text': 'um she conducted research on literary journals\xa0\nand culture of the republic republican era lang'}, {'start': '176.880', 'end': '183.680', 'text': 'language and identity in Taiwan in commemoration\xa0\nof government atrocity Her publications include'}, {'start': '183.680', 'end': '189.440', 'text': 'representing atrocity in Taiwan the 228 incident\xa0\nwhite terror in fiction and film and essays on'}, {'start': '189.440', 'end': '195.600', 'text': 'documentary films So for the format of our round\xa0\ntables tonight each speaker will present about uh'}, {'start': '195.600', 'end': '201.840', 'text': 'for about 15 minutes After that I will ask um some\xa0\nfollow-up questions for for us to have a brief'}, {'start': '201.840', 'end': '208.480', 'text': "um discussion and then we'll open the floor um for\xa0\num to question for questions from the audience Um"}, {'start': '208.480', 'end': '222.080', 'text': "so without further ado let me um let's give our\xa0\nspeakers a warm um sorry a warm round of applause"}, {'start': '222.080', 'end': '232.480', 'text': 'Good afternoon uh everybody My name is Shiu\xa0\nWen-Tang I just come from uh Taiwan the first time'}, {'start': '232.480', 'end': '247.760', 'text': "to I'm very happy to and honor to be invited by\xa0\nthe institute uh by the center of Taiwan Studies"}, {'start': '247.760', 'end': '262.000', 'text': 'Uh as you know the tragedy happened\xa0\nin 1943 After 40 years silence civil'}, {'start': '262.000', 'end': '268.480', 'text': 'society began to commemorate this event in 1987'}, {'start': '268.480', 'end': '287.040', 'text': 'In 1992 the government published a first report\xa0\non the February 28th massacre of 1943 47 And in'}, {'start': '287.040', 'end': '302.080', 'text': '1995 the creation of a national\xa0\nuh foundation of 228 in'}, {'start': '302.080', 'end': '316.320', 'text': 'uh 2006 a new research report on\xa0\nresponsibility for the 228 instant was'}, {'start': '316.320', 'end': '326.640', 'text': 'published He point out that John\xa0\nis the creative of the massacre'}, {'start': '326.640', 'end': '332.000', 'text': 'and should be bear the greatest responsibility Mhm'}, {'start': '332.000', 'end': '345.040', 'text': 'So in 2006 I just mentioned'}, {'start': '345.040', 'end': '349.040', 'text': 'uh'}, {'start': '349.040', 'end': '366.160', 'text': 'the KMT and many people in Taiwan news\xa0\nsociety uh receive the control education'}, {'start': '366.160', 'end': '376.960', 'text': 'under authoritarian rule for tickets So they\xa0\nhave been used to avoid any discussion or'}, {'start': '376.960', 'end': '388.960', 'text': 'reflection on history Some even tolerate the\xa0\nambiguous situation No search for truth no'}, {'start': '388.960', 'end': '403.280', 'text': 'pursuit of justice They claim the victim\xa0\nhas have received monetary compensation'}, {'start': '403.280', 'end': '403.840', 'text': 'So'}, {'start': '403.840', 'end': '419.840', 'text': 'uh in 2007 uh the 228 National Memorial Museum'}, {'start': '419.840', 'end': '429.680', 'text': 'uh was found It works focus not only on\xa0\nmanaging compensation and providing control'}, {'start': '429.680', 'end': '438.480', 'text': 'for the victim and their family on strength\xa0\nstrengthening historical and the human right'}, {'start': '438.480', 'end': '447.120', 'text': 'education for the young generation making\xa0\nthe foundation the base for truth finding'}, {'start': '447.120', 'end': '460.000', 'text': 'collecting historical materials and serving as\xa0\na platform for worldwide exchange of opinions Uh'}, {'start': '460.000', 'end': '482.800', 'text': 'in 2017 the act on promoting transitional\xa0\njustice was and came into effect They have'}, {'start': '482.800', 'end': '497.280', 'text': 'five uh subjects Providing public access to\xa0\npublic political archive records removing'}, {'start': '497.280', 'end': '508.880', 'text': 'authoritarian symbol and preserving site\xa0\noppressed where injustice were committed'}, {'start': '508.880', 'end': '517.760', 'text': 'Redressing judicial and administrative\xa0\nwrongs restoring historical truths and'}, {'start': '517.760', 'end': '530.160', 'text': 'promoting social reconciliation setting and the\xa0\nutilizing year golden party asset handing other'}, {'start': '530.160', 'end': '540.160', 'text': 'materials pertaining to transitional justice'}, {'start': '540.160', 'end': '545.120', 'text': 'uh in 19 uh in 20 uh'}, {'start': '545.120', 'end': '555.200', 'text': '19 the regulation for political\xa0\narchive was promulgate and come'}, {'start': '555.200', 'end': '567.520', 'text': 'into effect We have a 4.5 million page of\xa0\nthis fire were digitalized and open to the'}, {'start': '567.520', 'end': '585.840', 'text': 'public Now we have uh uh rather than\xa0\ninvestigating the capable person or finding'}, {'start': '585.840', 'end': '594.320', 'text': 'uh historical truth in transitional justice The\xa0\nmonetary compensation paid by the government'}, {'start': '594.320', 'end': '611.360', 'text': 'which is from the tax revenue is the cheapest and\xa0\nthe easiest task that has achieved much success'}, {'start': '611.360', 'end': '620.640', 'text': "uh until May of 2022 a new act to\xa0\nrestore victim's right infringed by"}, {'start': '620.640', 'end': '632.960', 'text': 'uh illegal act of the state during the period\xa0\nof authoritarian rule was stipulated The human'}, {'start': '632.960', 'end': '646.960', 'text': 'right violation committee uh committed by the\xa0\nintelligence agency have not yet been investigate'}, {'start': '646.960', 'end': '662.000', 'text': 'removing authoritarian s symbol statute of\xa0\nJ and redressing uh jury shield injustice'}, {'start': '662.000', 'end': '675.440', 'text': "So I will give you another example of\xa0\nuh of friend Francisco Franco Bam he's"}, {'start': '675.440', 'end': '682.320', 'text': 'uh an authoritarian'}, {'start': '682.320', 'end': '697.440', 'text': "authoritarian of span uh he's in\xa0\nin the power from 1926 to 1975"}, {'start': '697.440', 'end': '706.640', 'text': "After his test he is buried in valet\xa0\nlos chaos that's mean of the foreign"}, {'start': '706.640', 'end': '715.760', 'text': 'heroes but in 2007'}, {'start': '715.760', 'end': '726.800', 'text': 'uh historical memory low uh\xa0\npassed by 127 volt four and'}, {'start': '728.960', 'end': '740.720', 'text': '119 vote against that mean the\xa0\ndifference is very close and in 19'}, {'start': '740.720', 'end': '747.520', 'text': "uh in 2008 that's mean in one years"}, {'start': '747.520', 'end': '753.360', 'text': 'uh they remove all the status of'}, {'start': '753.360', 'end': '759.120', 'text': 'Franco in in any public'}, {'start': '759.120', 'end': '780.800', 'text': 'place In [Music] 2019 his uh dead body\xa0\nwas uh moved from the uh Voskitos to'}, {'start': '780.800', 'end': '798.560', 'text': 'cemetering a mean uh he has no more and\xa0\nuh no more uh worship of uh any symbol of'}, {'start': '798.560', 'end': '818.560', 'text': "Franco Uh that's my uh simple presentation I\xa0\nhope you can understand what I say Thank you"}, {'start': '818.560', 'end': '823.600', 'text': 'And next we will have Dr James Lin will talk\xa0\nabout academic academic engagement in the global'}, {'start': '823.600', 'end': '832.400', 'text': "context Um so Ellen asked me to talk about the\xa0\n228 incident in academic global context Uh I'm"}, {'start': '832.400', 'end': '837.280', 'text': 'going to change it into a slightly different\xa0\ndirection I hope this is um okay to slightly'}, {'start': '837.280', 'end': '843.680', 'text': 'ambush all of you with a a little bit of a\xa0\ndifferent divergent path Um but basically as'}, {'start': '843.680', 'end': '849.200', 'text': 'I was coming up with this presentation I thought\xa0\nabout how I teach the February 28th incident and'}, {'start': '849.200', 'end': '854.800', 'text': "how I've been influenced by different kinds of\xa0\nacademic fields that have come to um converge"}, {'start': '854.800', 'end': '862.160', 'text': "upon historical studies of 228 And so I'd like to\xa0\nbring us through um partially how how I teach the"}, {'start': '862.160', 'end': '867.600', 'text': 'February 20th incident as a a form of my own\xa0\npersonal pedagogy and hopefully through that'}, {'start': '867.600', 'end': '873.120', 'text': 'uh kind of end at where Ellen wanted me to end\xa0\nat Um so the title of my talk is the February'}, {'start': '873.120', 'end': '877.760', 'text': "20th incident as three keys And for many of\xa0\nyou I'm sure you're familiar with uh this"}, {'start': '877.760', 'end': '884.400', 'text': 'book History in Three Keys which was published\xa0\nby China historian Paul Cohen in 1997 And this'}, {'start': '884.400', 'end': '890.320', 'text': 'is a book about the Boxer Rebellion which is one\xa0\nof these major moments in modern Chinese history'}, {'start': '890.320', 'end': '898.720', 'text': "a tremendous social upheaval But for Paul Cohen\xa0\nit's more than just a historical moment It was a"}, {'start': '898.720', 'end': '904.880', 'text': 'moment that was mythologized and was experienced\xa0\nquite differently by the historical actors who'}, {'start': '904.880', 'end': '910.480', 'text': 'went through the boxer rebellion And so he has\xa0\nthis framework of the three keys Uh the first'}, {'start': '910.480', 'end': '919.200', 'text': 'of which is event And for Cohen event is kind of\xa0\nhow we as historians tell a history It represents'}, {'start': '919.200', 'end': '925.120', 'text': 'a particular reading of the past as constructed\xa0\nby academic historians But this is different'}, {'start': '925.120', 'end': '933.680', 'text': 'from how historical actors themselves experienced\xa0\nthe past And so he categorizes this as experience'}, {'start': '933.680', 'end': '938.960', 'text': 'the history that people make and directly\xa0\nexperience And you contrast this with event with'}, {'start': '938.960', 'end': '945.040', 'text': 'the construction of the past the narrativization\xa0\nof the past as told to us by people like myself'}, {'start': '945.600', 'end': '952.400', 'text': 'The third key that he has is myth which is in his\xa0\nwords an impressing of the past into a service of'}, {'start': '952.400', 'end': '957.760', 'text': 'the particular reading of the present And here\xa0\nhistory is always told through the lens of the'}, {'start': '957.760', 'end': '962.160', 'text': 'present when history is mythologized And the\xa0\nboxer rebellion is one of these events that'}, {'start': '962.160', 'end': '968.080', 'text': "has been very much mythologized in a telling\xa0\nof modern Chinese history So I'd like to take"}, {'start': '968.080', 'end': '974.160', 'text': 'these three keys that Paul Coden has given us and\xa0\napply to them uh apply them to the February 20th'}, {'start': '974.160', 'end': '980.320', 'text': 'incident And I start here with how I teach the\xa0\nFebruary 20th incident in my undergraduate course'}, {'start': '980.320', 'end': '987.360', 'text': 'um history of modern Taiwan which is through\xa0\nlived experience from participants who actually'}, {'start': '987.360', 'end': '993.040', 'text': 'took part in the February 28th incident uh through\xa0\npersonal memoirs through primary sources The one'}, {'start': '993.040', 'end': '1000.000', 'text': "that's the most commonly known to English reading\xa0\nAmerican audiences would be that of George Kerr"}, {'start': '1000.000', 'end': '1006.080', 'text': 'who was an American consulate official based in\xa0\nTaipei at the time of the February 20th incident'}, {'start': '1006.080', 'end': '1010.560', 'text': "and wrote this very famous book called for most\xa0\nof betrayed I'm going to focus on a different"}, {'start': '1010.560', 'end': '1017.600', 'text': 'uh primary source and that is the personal memoirs\xa0\nof Hu Peng Peng who was a very famous um Taiwanese'}, {'start': '1017.600', 'end': '1024.800', 'text': 'political activist uh was a professor who escaped\xa0\nTaiwan during the martial art era and wrote this'}, {'start': '1024.800', 'end': '1030.320', 'text': "important memoir in the 1970s Uh and here I have\xa0\na quote from his memoir I'm not going to read the"}, {'start': '1030.320', 'end': '1037.520', 'text': "whole quote It's it's very long But basically what\xa0\nthis is it's a recollection of um experience from"}, {'start': '1037.520', 'end': '1044.400', 'text': 'his father who was uh a local Taiwanese elite in\xa0\nGalong at the time of the February 28th incident'}, {'start': '1044.400', 'end': '1051.760', 'text': 'He was a part of these negotiations between uh the\xa0\nFebruary 28th protesters who um made demands of'}, {'start': '1051.760', 'end': '1059.760', 'text': 'the KMT government after the February 27th kind of\xa0\nevents unfolded And uh during these negotiations'}, {'start': '1059.760', 'end': '1067.760', 'text': 'he was held by the KMT government He was tortured\xa0\nUm some of his you know fellow members of that'}, {'start': '1067.760', 'end': '1075.040', 'text': 'kind of elite negotiating committee Some of them\xa0\nwere executed Uh and Ponging Ming gives us the'}, {'start': '1075.040', 'end': '1080.000', 'text': 'emotions and the experience that his father\xa0\nexperienced and he tells us to us through his'}, {'start': '1080.000', 'end': '1085.840', 'text': "memoir I'll just read this last paragraph Totally\xa0\nexhausted father went home He had nothing to eat"}, {'start': '1085.840', 'end': '1091.520', 'text': 'for two days and he was emotionally shattered\xa0\nHis disillusionment was complete Henceforth he'}, {'start': '1091.520', 'end': '1096.640', 'text': 'would have nothing to do with politics and public\xa0\naffairs under the Chinese His was the bitterness'}, {'start': '1096.640', 'end': '1102.560', 'text': 'of a betrayed idealist He went so far as to cry\xa0\nout that he was ashamed of his Chinese blood and'}, {'start': '1102.560', 'end': '1106.560', 'text': 'wish that his children after him would always\xa0\nmarry foreigners until his descendants could'}, {'start': '1106.560', 'end': '1113.920', 'text': 'no longer claim to be Chinese So we see this as a\xa0\nvery powerful emotional traumatic kind of memoir'}, {'start': '1113.920', 'end': '1119.920', 'text': 'This is lived experience as Paul Cohen would tell\xa0\nus These kinds of lived experiences as told to us'}, {'start': '1119.920', 'end': '1127.360', 'text': 'through primary sources affects the social memory\xa0\nof Taiwan today And here I borrow from the work of'}, {'start': '1127.360', 'end': '1133.120', 'text': 'historian Yang Mong Dominic Young who gives us\xa0\nthis definition from his book The Great Exodus'}, {'start': '1133.120', 'end': '1139.200', 'text': 'from China Social memory What a group of people\xa0\na society or nation concentrates on recalling or'}, {'start': '1139.200', 'end': '1145.840', 'text': 'commemorating at a certain point in time in order\xa0\nto satisfy a particular need or serve a particular'}, {'start': '1145.840', 'end': '1153.280', 'text': "purpose Dominic's definition of social memory\xa0\nhere points to some of the meanings that Paul"}, {'start': '1153.280', 'end': '1159.200', 'text': 'Cohen wants us to take away from understanding\xa0\ntraumatic events like the Boxer Rebellion'}, {'start': '1159.200', 'end': '1164.080', 'text': 'Social memory defines how people today in\xa0\nTaiwan recall the past and understand the'}, {'start': '1164.080', 'end': '1170.080', 'text': 'past and understand the meanings of events like\xa0\nthe February 28th incident Later on Hu went on to'}, {'start': '1170.080', 'end': '1175.120', 'text': 'become one of the foremost activists for Taiwanese\xa0\nindependence He ran as a presidential candidate'}, {'start': '1175.120', 'end': '1181.840', 'text': 'for the early Democratic Progressive Party\xa0\num and was a lifelong advocate of a Taiwanese'}, {'start': '1181.840', 'end': '1188.640', 'text': 'identity as separate from a Chinese identity And\xa0\nthis leads me to um kind of my second my second'}, {'start': '1188.640', 'end': '1195.200', 'text': "key related to one of Paul Cohen's keys Uh and\xa0\nthat is the influence of politics And here I'm"}, {'start': '1195.200', 'end': '1201.280', 'text': "pointing to the work that's been done by historian\xa0\nCraig Smith when he published this article in"}, {'start': '1201.280', 'end': '1208.880', 'text': "um past and perfect in 2008 titled Taiwan's 228\xa0\nincident and the politics of place and blame"}, {'start': '1208.880', 'end': '1214.000', 'text': 'In this article Craig Smith looks at how\xa0\nthe February 20th incident is interpreted'}, {'start': '1214.000', 'end': '1220.720', 'text': 'differently across political lines in Taiwan So\xa0\nthe quote that he gives us here the construction'}, {'start': '1220.720', 'end': '1225.840', 'text': 'of the symbolic mythology of the 228 incident\xa0\nhas made the uprising an important historical'}, {'start': '1225.840', 'end': '1230.720', 'text': 'event and a divisive tool in the political\xa0\nand ethnic turmoil of contemporary Taiwan'}, {'start': '1230.720', 'end': '1236.240', 'text': 'By examining the incident as it is seen first by\xa0\nhistorians and then by politicians I will show how'}, {'start': '1236.240', 'end': '1242.800', 'text': 'the mythologization process has centered in this\xa0\narena on the charging of responsibility As Jeffrey'}, {'start': '1242.800', 'end': '1248.160', 'text': 'Alexander states in creating a compelling trauma\xa0\nnarrative it is critical to establish the identity'}, {'start': '1248.160', 'end': '1256.480', 'text': 'of the perpetrator the quote unquote antagonist So\xa0\nhere this is a process of mythologization as Craig'}, {'start': '1256.480', 'end': '1263.200', 'text': "Smith tells us and this is the analog to Paul\xa0\nCohen's myth that when a historical event becomes"}, {'start': '1263.200', 'end': '1269.200', 'text': 'um mythologized it takes on a greater meaning\xa0\nbeyond its original historical implications and'}, {'start': '1269.200', 'end': '1273.680', 'text': 'that meaning is really defined by the present\xa0\nIn the case of Craig Smith this is defined by'}, {'start': '1273.680', 'end': '1279.120', 'text': "the party politics of Taiwan's domestic\xa0\npolitical sphere and that is between the"}, {'start': '1279.120', 'end': '1285.520', 'text': 'two main axes Uh the pan green as defined by\xa0\nthe Democratic Progressive Party and the pan'}, {'start': '1285.520', 'end': '1293.040', 'text': 'blue as defined by the Guin According to Smith\xa0\nsince the end of martial law in 1987 the DPP'}, {'start': '1293.040', 'end': '1298.240', 'text': 'has managed to successfully tie itself to the\xa0\nremembrance of the Tut incident a critical move'}, {'start': '1298.240', 'end': '1304.240', 'text': 'in its political aspirations an effective trauma\xa0\nnarrative with Chiang Kai shek as its antagonist'}, {'start': '1304.240', 'end': '1309.520', 'text': 'has been constructed During the same time the\xa0\nKMT have been forced to evolve considerably in'}, {'start': '1309.520', 'end': '1314.720', 'text': 'order to ensure that the implications of such a\xa0\nnarrative no longer have the efficacy they once'}, {'start': '1314.720', 'end': '1319.520', 'text': 'held in the political arena Um of course what this\xa0\ntells us is that the February 20th incident is a'}, {'start': '1319.520', 'end': '1327.200', 'text': 'tremendously effective tool in pointing to the\xa0\npast abuses that the KMT legacy holds for it And'}, {'start': '1327.200', 'end': '1332.640', 'text': 'so this is the reason why we see um at the time\xa0\nof the publication of this article you know major'}, {'start': '1332.640', 'end': '1340.400', 'text': 'KMT officials uh recognizing and apologizing\xa0\nfor the February 20th incident The last lens'}, {'start': '1340.400', 'end': '1348.720', 'text': 'that I want to bring to the discussion is related\xa0\nagain to the present circumstances of the February'}, {'start': '1348.720', 'end': '1354.400', 'text': "20th incident And so here uh I want to focus\xa0\non pedagogy And I don't mean the pedagogy of"}, {'start': '1354.400', 'end': '1362.240', 'text': 'the classroom um of my classroom but rather social\xa0\npedagogy And here I borrow from ethnomusicologist'}, {'start': '1362.240', 'end': '1367.840', 'text': "Meredith Schweig's book Renegade Rhymes where\xa0\nshe describes how the cultural sphere which"}, {'start': '1367.840', 'end': '1373.120', 'text': 'uh professor Lin will speak about very shortly\xa0\nbut I just want to highlight how hip-hop music'}, {'start': '1373.120', 'end': '1380.160', 'text': 'for me is a form of pedagogy And so what she\xa0\nwrites here is that rap songs in Taiwan are'}, {'start': '1380.160', 'end': '1387.280', 'text': 'synergistic efforts to imagine new forms of post\xa0\nauthoritarian sociality She argues that rappers'}, {'start': '1387.280', 'end': '1392.720', 'text': 'performance practices and pedagogical ambitions\xa0\ntheir desires to teach with and through their'}, {'start': '1392.720', 'end': '1398.560', 'text': 'musical activities configure post authoritarianism\xa0\nas a creative political intervention whose'}, {'start': '1398.560', 'end': '1404.800', 'text': 'ultimate object is the reordering of epistemic\xa0\nhierarchies power structures and gender relations'}, {'start': '1405.600', 'end': '1411.280', 'text': "In the book she focuses on a few rap artists\xa0\nand one of these I've selected to talk about"}, {'start': '1411.280', 'end': '1420.880', 'text': "very briefly which is uh Chang who's a a hip-hop\xa0\nartist and who had this song Gina or Hey Kid In"}, {'start': '1422.240', 'end': '1427.920', 'text': "Hokkien raps about Taiwan's historical past and\xa0\nvery specifically about the February 28th incident"}, {'start': '1427.920', 'end': '1434.320', 'text': 'So this is the uh a quote from the lyrics Chinese\xa0\ngovernment occupied farms and occupied lands'}, {'start': '1434.320', 'end': '1441.200', 'text': 'Corrupt monopoly Only those of low character speak\xa0\nTaiwanese February 27th 1947 their police pistol'}, {'start': '1441.200', 'end': '1447.200', 'text': 'whipped the head of an Obasan selling cigarettes\xa0\nthen opened fire and killed a young bystander The'}, {'start': '1447.200', 'end': '1453.760', 'text': "people couldn't take this Went to protest went\xa0\nto Daen Chinese soldiers viciously shot them"}, {'start': '1454.560', 'end': '1460.880', 'text': 'The kind of pedagogy that Zre Chin is trying to\xa0\naccomplish here is trying to teach the Taiwanese'}, {'start': '1460.880', 'end': '1465.520', 'text': 'generations especially younger generations\xa0\nones who would listen to rap music about an'}, {'start': '1465.520', 'end': '1473.680', 'text': "important past of an important part of Taiwan's\xa0\nhistorical past that Shweig I think implies wants"}, {'start': '1473.680', 'end': '1479.600', 'text': "to suggest to us is also an important part of\xa0\nTaiwan's present of its present identity and of"}, {'start': '1479.600', 'end': '1487.200', 'text': 'how Taiwanese people understand the influence of\xa0\nauthor authoritarianism on its democratic present'}, {'start': '1487.200', 'end': '1495.360', 'text': 'And so here um I want to conclude by pointing to\xa0\nhow these three things how memory how politics and'}, {'start': '1495.360', 'end': '1502.080', 'text': 'how social pedagogy tie together into a different\xa0\nreading of history that Paul Cohen wants us to'}, {'start': '1502.080', 'end': '1509.680', 'text': 'take away by focusing on these three keys For\xa0\nPaul Cohen he warns us "Although professional'}, {'start': '1509.680', 'end': '1514.800', 'text': 'historians spend a good bit of their time doing\xa0\nbattle with the mythologized past or rendering the'}, {'start': '1514.800', 'end': '1520.000', 'text': 'experienced past intelligible and meaningful in\xa0\nways that were not available to the experiencers'}, {'start': '1520.000', 'end': '1526.240', 'text': 'themselves For most human beings experience and\xa0\nmyth have an emotional power and importance We'}, {'start': '1526.240', 'end': '1531.440', 'text': 'may indeed call it a kind of subjective truth\xa0\nthat historians ignore at their own peril'}, {'start': '1531.440', 'end': '1536.000', 'text': 'Uh so hopefully from this conclusion we can point\xa0\nto the ways in which the February 28th incident'}, {'start': '1536.000', 'end': '1541.200', 'text': 'is more than just historical event as narrated\xa0\nby historians but really an important way of'}, {'start': '1541.200', 'end': '1549.920', 'text': "understanding Taiwan's historical past Taiwan's\xa0\nsocial memory and Taiwan's present Thank you"}, {'start': '1549.920', 'end': '1555.760', 'text': 'Thank you James for the lovely surprise I guess\xa0\nAnd um last but not le not not the least we have'}, {'start': '1555.760', 'end': '1561.520', 'text': 'Dr um Sylvia Lin uh who hopefully not\xa0\ngoing to give us another surprise but'}, {'start': '1561.520', 'end': '1568.960', 'text': "we'll talk about cultural representation and\xa0\nliterary translation Okay I hate surprises"}, {'start': '1570.160', 'end': '1576.640', 'text': 'So um before I begin I would first like\xa0\nto thank the Taiwan studies program for'}, {'start': '1576.640', 'end': '1585.040', 'text': 'hosting this event and for inviting me and also\xa0\nspecial thanks to Ellen Chang for organizing and'}, {'start': '1585.040', 'end': '1590.560', 'text': 'communicating with me throughout the process\xa0\nand she is so detail oriented you cannot ask'}, {'start': '1590.560', 'end': '1601.520', 'text': 'for a better event organizer So um um our two uh\xa0\nfirst two presenters have given us some really'}, {'start': '1601.520', 'end': '1610.640', 'text': 'good ideas about commemorating the past um\xa0\nlike government uh research archival materials'}, {'start': '1610.640', 'end': '1621.040', 'text': "uh museum um cultural productions and um\xa0\nacademic reflections And so I'm going to"}, {'start': '1621.040', 'end': '1629.840', 'text': 'talk about a different way of com commemorating\xa0\nthe past particularly and event like the two way'}, {'start': '1629.840', 'end': '1635.360', 'text': "incident and I'm going to read because\xa0\nif I start talking we were here until"}, {'start': '1635.360', 'end': '1647.440', 'text': 'midnight literary representation of the 228\xa0\nincident has undergone several discrete periods'}, {'start': '1647.440', 'end': '1655.200', 'text': 'as a result of the changing political climate\xa0\nin Taiwan In my book I mention how writers of'}, {'start': '1655.200', 'end': '1663.040', 'text': 'different periods adopted a variety of narrative\xa0\nstrategies in the immediate aftermath during the'}, {'start': '1663.040', 'end': '1671.440', 'text': 'martial law era and after it was lifted in 1987\xa0\nI will give a few examples to illustrate major'}, {'start': '1671.440', 'end': '1680.480', 'text': 'characteristics of this still growing corpus of\xa0\nwritings Understandably there were few works of'}, {'start': '1680.480', 'end': '1688.240', 'text': "fiction immediately after the incident Tan's\xa0\nintoxication is one of the few dealing with"}, {'start': '1688.240', 'end': '1696.800', 'text': 'a young Taiwanese woman and Mr Young a man from\xa0\nthe China mainland In contrast with later works'}, {'start': '1696.800', 'end': '1705.120', 'text': 'that focus more on the suffering of the Taiwanese\xa0\num the protagonist Mr Young in this story is a'}, {'start': '1705.120', 'end': '1712.560', 'text': 'victim to Taiwanese who beat him in their outrage\xa0\nover the incident He cannot speak Taiwanese and'}, {'start': '1712.560', 'end': '1720.880', 'text': 'therefore is easily identified as someone from\xa0\nthe mainland Ajin takes care of him and nurses'}, {'start': '1720.880', 'end': '1728.160', 'text': 'him back to good health and is later deceived into\xa0\na romantic relationship and therefore the victim'}, {'start': '1728.160', 'end': '1735.200', 'text': 'of the incident becomes a victimizer himself when\xa0\nhe grows tired of her and just leaves her without'}, {'start': '1735.200', 'end': '1744.320', 'text': "any explanation Old story has a sense of immediacy\xa0\nbut it wasn't written from the ventures point of"}, {'start': '1744.320', 'end': '1751.760', 'text': 'hindsight and thus unlike the later writers\xa0\nthe author does not analyze the cause of the'}, {'start': '1751.760', 'end': '1759.920', 'text': 'incident even though the two main characters\xa0\nethnic identity hint at misunderstanding and'}, {'start': '1759.920', 'end': '1771.600', 'text': 'misdeception notes of mountain about a real\xa0\nFive character figure was published in 1984 The'}, {'start': '1771.600', 'end': '1782.000', 'text': 'protagonist is based on a Taiwanese intellectual\xa0\nelect writer and poet Lihur who died of a snake'}, {'start': '1782.000', 'end': '1789.520', 'text': 'bite when he fled into the mountains to avoid\xa0\ngovernment persecution For various reasons the'}, {'start': '1789.520', 'end': '1797.200', 'text': "author glosses over the main character's actions\xa0\nand instead focuses on his flight and later his"}, {'start': '1797.200', 'end': '1806.560', 'text': 'encounter with a bounty hunter They both perish in\xa0\nthe mountains at the end of the story But unlike'}, {'start': '1806.560', 'end': '1815.520', 'text': 'intoxication Liia offer a somewhat uplifting\xa0\nending with the dying spreading seeds of acacia'}, {'start': '1815.520', 'end': '1824.800', 'text': 'trees as a sign of hope and a better future\xa0\nThese two character these two stories feature'}, {'start': '1824.800', 'end': '1831.360', 'text': 'a Taiwanese and a main character likely because\xa0\nactive differences were generally believed to be'}, {'start': '1831.360', 'end': '1840.080', 'text': 'one of the major causes of the incident which is\xa0\nwhy a short story by Leu is noteworthy The story'}, {'start': '1840.080', 'end': '1847.360', 'text': 'is called Nocturnal Strange relates a woman\xa0\nfrom China living in Taipei her husband was'}, {'start': '1847.360', 'end': '1854.080', 'text': 'disappeared and she must think for herself as\xa0\na housekeeper Someone who is not familiar with'}, {'start': '1854.080', 'end': '1861.760', 'text': "Taiwan's history and the background of the story\xa0\nmay have trouble understanding it it significance"}, {'start': '1861.760', 'end': '1871.360', 'text': 'Nui and her husband were both blacklisted by the\xa0\nKMT government for their participation in the Thai'}, {'start': '1871.360', 'end': '1880.480', 'text': 'protests which may be why she was circumspect and\xa0\noften elliptical in her references to the incident'}, {'start': '1880.480', 'end': '1889.120', 'text': "It is not even clear why the protagonist's husband\xa0\nwas disappeared The ambiguity serves two purpose"}, {'start': '1889.120', 'end': '1896.000', 'text': "One family members of real life victims don't\xa0\ndidn't always know about their loved ones"}, {'start': '1896.000', 'end': '1903.760', 'text': "activities And two besides the author's need\xa0\nto be cautious it hints at the impossibility"}, {'start': '1903.760', 'end': '1909.920', 'text': 'of knowing the truth about the 228 incident\xa0\nAnd someone like me growing up have no idea'}, {'start': '1909.920', 'end': '1917.360', 'text': 'it actually happened until much later And often\xa0\ntime we hear a hint here and there from our elders'}, {'start': '1917.360', 'end': '1923.040', 'text': "um and then immediately they will be shushed don't\xa0\ntalk about this in front of the children something"}, {'start': '1923.040', 'end': '1930.960', 'text': 'like that later when democratization is banned\xa0\nin the space of freedom in Taiwan writers also'}, {'start': '1930.960', 'end': '1938.560', 'text': 'gain the freedom to refer to the incident more\xa0\ndirectly with more overt portrayals in uh who'}, {'start': '1938.560', 'end': '1949.120', 'text': "tamsung's collection of short stories is gunfires\xa0\nokay present vivid horrific portrayals of looting"}, {'start': '1949.120', 'end': '1956.160', 'text': 'and the killing of innocent Taiwanese business\xa0\nowners and their families spirit injustice of'}, {'start': '1956.160', 'end': '1969.600', 'text': '1947 based on his intensive interviews present a\xa0\nlarge group of victims and instances of brutality'}, {'start': '1969.600', 'end': '1977.920', 'text': 'and Pun Yandumin recorded a senseless killing\xa0\nof the Yandumin and Taiwanese in his 1992 short'}, {'start': '1977.920', 'end': '1985.920', 'text': 'story collection indelible memories In these\xa0\ntexts and others we see that while writers'}, {'start': '1985.920', 'end': '1992.720', 'text': 'gain more freedom to write with explicit\xa0\nreferences it may not be a positive term'}, {'start': '1993.520', 'end': '2000.960', 'text': 'I would like to now share a short excerpt from\xa0\na novella that we recently translated and will'}, {'start': '2000.960', 'end': '2009.200', 'text': "soon be published by the Columbia University\xa0\nPress Miss Casey by Leangin Okay it's uh in the"}, {'start': '2009.200', 'end': '2018.800', 'text': 'collection um of portraits and white and Dr Lind\xa0\nProfessor Lindia have written a very informative'}, {'start': '2018.800', 'end': '2024.080', 'text': 'introduction to the collection So I encourage\xa0\nyou all to get a copy and read the story but'}, {'start': '2024.080', 'end': '2034.160', 'text': 'you get a preview here Um Miss Casey a Taiwanese\xa0\nwoman is forced into exile in France and later'}, {'start': '2034.160', 'end': '2042.480', 'text': "in Germany when she comes under suspicion by the\xa0\nnational government's only present secret police"}, {'start': '2044.080', 'end': '2051.440', 'text': "What I'm going to read to you takes place in\xa0\nher apartment in Berlin when she is in her"}, {'start': '2051.440', 'end': '2059.200', 'text': 'late 60s or early 70s It is Christmas Eve and\xa0\nshe is hosting several young Taiwanese students'}, {'start': '2059.200', 'end': '2068.640', 'text': 'studying Germany Their conversation at one point\xa0\nturned to Taiwanese student association in Berlin'}, {'start': '2070.800', 'end': '2077.120', 'text': "So I'll quickly read this and you can read along\xa0\nAssociation gatherings in the old days Did you"}, {'start': '2077.120', 'end': '2084.320', 'text': 'really all sing Hometown at Dusk and Spring\xa0\nDreams One of the students asked Yes we did'}, {'start': '2084.320', 'end': '2089.920', 'text': "Casey replied Then how come no one sang them\xa0\nat last year's New Year's dinner Because we"}, {'start': '2089.920', 'end': '2097.120', 'text': "got teeyed when we sang them she said You will\xa0\nlaugh if we send them now wouldn't you Maybe You"}, {'start': '2097.120', 'end': '2101.840', 'text': "see after you've been here a while that most\xa0\npeople's Taiwanese consciousness was raised"}, {'start': '2101.840', 'end': '2110.080', 'text': "overseas My age is raised but since there's no\xa0\nmore list when I feel my hometown calling out"}, {'start': '2110.080', 'end': '2117.200', 'text': 'to me all I need is to buy a plane ticket and\xa0\ngo back They say overseas students these days'}, {'start': '2117.200', 'end': '2124.400', 'text': 'don\'t care much about politics because many of\xa0\nthe restriction have been lifted Casey said "I'}, {'start': '2124.400', 'end': '2131.280', 'text': 'was petrified when I heard talk about Taiwan\xa0\nindependence but now to be honest sometimes I'}, {'start': '2131.280', 'end': '2140.000', 'text': 'it just annoys me." Another student joined in From\xa0\nfear to annoyance we probably won\'t have a clearer'}, {'start': '2140.000', 'end': '2146.240', 'text': "testament to the success and the speed of Taiwan's\xa0\ndemocratization process as witnessed by the"}, {'start': '2146.240', 'end': '2156.240', 'text': 'protagon generation gaps are at play here But\xa0\nmore importantly it is also because freedom'}, {'start': '2156.240', 'end': '2163.520', 'text': "of speech and other essential civil liberties\xa0\nhave become the younger generation's new normal"}, {'start': '2166.960', 'end': '2173.600', 'text': 'This Miss Casey feels a sense of loss and being\xa0\nsomewhat out of step talking about the past with'}, {'start': '2173.600', 'end': '2180.320', 'text': 'her young guests Later she shows the young women\xa0\nthe clothes she made for herself and tells them'}, {'start': '2180.320', 'end': '2187.440', 'text': 'to take whatever they like They try to close on\xa0\nbut do not take any And in the end her clothes'}, {'start': '2187.440', 'end': '2195.440', 'text': 'are laid out at a flea market stand A German\xa0\nwoman sourcing vintage clothing for theater and'}, {'start': '2195.440', 'end': '2203.840', 'text': 'movies stop by and offers to buy all of them The\xa0\nmetaphor is hard to is not hard to miss here What'}, {'start': '2203.840', 'end': '2211.760', 'text': 'Miss Casey represents is no longer in fashion\xa0\nand fitting for the young Her clothing is now'}, {'start': '2211.760', 'end': '2219.520', 'text': 'relegated to the stage of historical reproduction\xa0\nWhat is discarded in the form of clothing styles'}, {'start': '2219.520', 'end': '2227.600', 'text': 'from an earlier generation is the old ideology and\xa0\nanything associated with the era of pervasive fear'}, {'start': '2227.600', 'end': '2235.280', 'text': 'and self exile On one hand it is uplifting that\xa0\nTaiwan is moving on and moving forward into a new'}, {'start': '2235.280', 'end': '2244.240', 'text': 'era On the other hand we also feel apprehensive\xa0\nabout a potential historical amnesia Which brings'}, {'start': '2244.240', 'end': '2251.600', 'text': 'me back to questions I have been pondering for\xa0\nquite some time Can subject matters be exhausted'}, {'start': '2251.600', 'end': '2260.480', 'text': 'as a result of over production and repetition Can\xa0\na populace lose interest in topic of historical'}, {'start': '2260.480', 'end': '2268.960', 'text': "significance like Miss Casey's younger friends\xa0\nIf so then how long can it take and how are"}, {'start': '2268.960', 'end': '2278.480', 'text': 'memories kept alive Interestingly Fangin offers a\xa0\npossible answer with our story with the continuum'}, {'start': '2278.480', 'end': '2286.400', 'text': 'appearance of his literary works films and TV\xa0\nseries about the 228 incident and by extension'}, {'start': '2286.400', 'end': '2294.880', 'text': 'the white terror era Our memory about the past\xa0\ncan be con constantly and continuously refreshed'}, {'start': '2294.880', 'end': '2301.360', 'text': "so that the past will remain in the present\xa0\nAnd today's round table is one of the events"}, {'start': '2301.360', 'end': '2309.680', 'text': 'that can simultaneously take us back and also\xa0\ntake us into the future so that we and everyone'}, {'start': '2309.680', 'end': '2319.920', 'text': 'will never forget what happened Thank you\nThe original plan was for me to ask question'}, {'start': '2319.920', 'end': '2325.280', 'text': "to each of our speakers but then I think it's\xa0\nit's very hard to like pick out one question for"}, {'start': '2325.280', 'end': '2329.360', 'text': "each speaker not going to leave that difficult\xa0\ntask to our audience Instead I'm going to ask"}, {'start': '2329.360', 'end': '2337.120', 'text': 'question I think will work more collectively um\xa0\nas a as a group discussion in your presentations'}, {'start': '2337.120', 'end': '2344.160', 'text': "like each of you talk about and deal with very\xa0\ndifficult histories um maybe let's pause and"}, {'start': '2344.160', 'end': '2348.960', 'text': "wait for the projector Okay is it better now\xa0\nSo and whether it's through um institutional"}, {'start': '2348.960', 'end': '2358.240', 'text': 'archive or truth finding or academic research\xa0\nor social pedagogy or literature um so I I was'}, {'start': '2358.240', 'end': '2363.280', 'text': 'wondering like how do you understand the role\xa0\nof emotion like grief or anger fear and hope'}, {'start': '2363.280', 'end': '2370.160', 'text': 'um in shaping how people remember um and engage\xa0\nwith 220 today Do you see it as an empowerment'}, {'start': '2370.160', 'end': '2377.040', 'text': 'way mode of empowerment or do you think it risks\xa0\nlike retraumatizing um or um fragmenting public'}, {'start': '2377.040', 'end': '2389.760', 'text': 'memory I'}, {'start': '2389.760', 'end': '2402.160', 'text': "guess I guess I'll start Um it it's a very\xa0\ncomplex and complicated questions and it's"}, {'start': '2402.160', 'end': '2412.480', 'text': 'very hard to answer because um when I was doing\xa0\nresearch I read about family reaction to their'}, {'start': '2412.480', 'end': '2421.920', 'text': 'um loved ones engaging in these kind of um uh\xa0\neither protesting or later during the white era'}, {'start': '2421.920', 'end': '2429.520', 'text': "era and they're not always they were not is\xa0\nunderstanding That's an important part that"}, {'start': '2429.520', 'end': '2439.040', 'text': 'some of them feel hurt uh for being left out\xa0\nSome of them felt um they were implicated in'}, {'start': '2439.040', 'end': '2446.800', 'text': "something that they're not interested in And so um\xa0\nI don't think I have an answer for that but it's a"}, {'start': '2446.800', 'end': '2455.120', 'text': 'very tricky path to take It probably depends\xa0\non the family Some family may not take this'}, {'start': '2456.720', 'end': '2464.560', 'text': "easily But then on the other hand I also\xa0\nread about um people's reaction to the the"}, {'start': '2464.560', 'end': '2473.840', 'text': 'memorial flag in the park I think maybe\xa0\na day after anyway shortly after it was'}, {'start': '2473.840', 'end': '2479.600', 'text': 'erected and family came and just took it off\xa0\nthe base because they were very angry at the'}, {'start': '2479.600', 'end': '2487.520', 'text': 'inscription about the incident The earlier one\xa0\nwas pretty much Of course back in the early'}, {'start': '2487.520', 'end': '2495.920', 'text': 'days some family members were um they they also\xa0\nneeded something that they uh justice a better'}, {'start': '2495.920', 'end': '2505.360', 'text': "explanation for what happened So I don't\xa0\nhave an answer but this is what I can offer"}, {'start': '2505.360', 'end': '2509.280', 'text': "Is the mic on Yeah I think it's just kind of quiet"}, {'start': '2512.400', 'end': '2519.200', 'text': 'Okay I will speak loudly regardless Um or\xa0\ntry to speak loudly Um I like like Professor'}, {'start': '2519.200', 'end': '2527.040', 'text': "Lynn I I don't really have a good answer Um\xa0\nthe only thing I would probably point to is"}, {'start': '2527.040', 'end': '2536.160', 'text': 'um the scholarship on affect I think and trauma\xa0\nin historical events is is a growing field'}, {'start': '2536.160', 'end': '2542.000', 'text': "So here I'm thinking about uh one of the books\xa0\nI I mentioned earlier was Dominic Young's study"}, {'start': '2542.000', 'end': '2550.880', 'text': "which is about trauma and it's about affect and\xa0\nhow that shapes social memory Um Dominic Young"}, {'start': '2550.880', 'end': '2556.960', 'text': 'is studying something very different We studying\xa0\nthe the exodus to Taiwan Uh a group of peoples'}, {'start': '2556.960', 'end': '2564.160', 'text': 'who you know previously were were told that\xa0\non the one hand their their their own traumas'}, {'start': '2564.160', 'end': '2572.400', 'text': 'were repressed by the Golden government which you\xa0\nknow tried to downplay what they had experienced'}, {'start': '2572.400', 'end': '2578.320', 'text': 'um and tried to turn that into anger as part of\xa0\nthe the global cold war as part of anti-communism'}, {'start': '2578.320', 'end': '2585.040', 'text': 'and communist revolution And then in the the\xa0\ndemocrization period Um their trauma once again'}, {'start': '2585.040', 'end': '2590.080', 'text': 'is underplayed in favor of you know February 28th\xa0\nincidents and other forms of trauma that were'}, {'start': '2590.080', 'end': '2595.760', 'text': 'enacted upon the the bunch of them very often\xa0\nby western But of course as Domin Young tells'}, {'start': '2595.760', 'end': '2601.440', 'text': 'us that that this is later that not all Western\xa0\nwere were involved in that repression uh and that'}, {'start': '2601.440', 'end': '2607.600', 'text': 'they themselves were repressed You you can both be\xa0\nrepressed as well as be colonizers in some ways Um'}, {'start': '2607.600', 'end': '2614.080', 'text': 'and you know Dominic himself explains to us in his\xa0\npositionality that that he himself as mentioned'}, {'start': '2614.080', 'end': '2619.600', 'text': 'you know had a very different positionality You\xa0\nknow there were people who were like him who said'}, {'start': '2619.600', 'end': '2624.960', 'text': 'why are you doing this history you know this is\xa0\nthese are people who oppressed us historically Uh'}, {'start': '2624.960', 'end': '2631.120', 'text': 'and then from the western side you know they they\xa0\nfelt that they were repressed unfairly And so his'}, {'start': '2631.120', 'end': '2638.640', 'text': 'going into the affective dimension of that history\xa0\nwas an exploration for him personally as well as'}, {'start': '2638.640', 'end': '2645.200', 'text': 'an academic exploration of that history Um so I\xa0\nthink all this is to say that that the affective'}, {'start': '2645.200', 'end': '2652.240', 'text': 'dimension is really important that we can only\xa0\nunderstand why this was so traumatic This being'}, {'start': '2652.240', 'end': '2657.840', 'text': 'um this being a couple different things one\xa0\nfor Dominic Young being the the the exodus'}, {'start': '2657.840', 'end': '2663.840', 'text': 'of the western men from China to Taiwan why that\xa0\nwas kind of a double for them and we understand'}, {'start': '2663.840', 'end': '2669.200', 'text': 'that effectively through what they experienced as\xa0\ntheir emotions uh through the present day and the'}, {'start': '2669.200', 'end': '2674.560', 'text': 'same thing goes for the February 28th incident\xa0\nthat we have to understand this not only as'}, {'start': '2674.560', 'end': '2680.000', 'text': 'um kind of historical atrocity but also an\xa0\natrocity that continues into the present'}, {'start': '2680.000', 'end': '2688.960', 'text': 'because of how historically over time this has\xa0\nbeen repressed And in the current moment where'}, {'start': '2688.960', 'end': '2693.840', 'text': 'we are dealing with that through transitional\xa0\njustice um the effective dimension is important'}, {'start': '2693.840', 'end': '2710.320', 'text': "to realizing how deep that trauma goes Okay it's\xa0\na very long-winded answer I want to speak more"}, {'start': '2740.320', 'end': '2759.200', 'text': 'Fore Foreign Foreign'}, {'start': '2820.560', 'end': '2841.840', 'text': "It's Taiwan"}, {'start': '2847.600', 'end': '2857.920', 'text': 'I saw Taiwan'}, {'start': '2864.800', 'end': '2872.320', 'text': 'So 228 incident is not merely an accident but\xa0\na mounting and increasing frustration of the'}, {'start': '2872.320', 'end': '2880.000', 'text': 'Taiwanese people at that time because before the\xa0\nKMT uh took over Taiwan Taiwanese was under the'}, {'start': '2880.000', 'end': '2886.320', 'text': 'Japanese colonial era where which they realized\xa0\nthey were actually not Japanese But then after'}, {'start': '2886.320', 'end': '2893.280', 'text': 'within one year after they um returned to the to\xa0\nthe so-called motherland they also realized that'}, {'start': '2893.280', 'end': '2899.840', 'text': 'they were not Chinese citizens because they\xa0\nwere treated as the second citizens and then'}, {'start': '2899.840', 'end': '2909.760', 'text': 'so that kind of their um dream was broken under\xa0\nthe KMT corruption and incompetence governance'}, {'start': '2909.760', 'end': '2916.320', 'text': "and then it's because of the 22A incident that\xa0\nshaped Taiwanese people's self determination"}, {'start': '2916.320', 'end': '2925.200', 'text': 'and self-governance and some people they were more\xa0\nand more affirmed that they want independence and'}, {'start': '2925.200', 'end': '2932.800', 'text': "um so during the uh San Francisco treaty peace\xa0\ntreaty with Japan Taiwan's uh international"}, {'start': '2932.800', 'end': '2940.080', 'text': 'status was also left undetermined\xa0\nwhere um nowadays internationally'}, {'start': '2940.080', 'end': '2950.720', 'text': "uh Taiwan's sovereignty was still often times\xa0\nclaimed to be um um decided and undetermined"}, {'start': '2950.720', 'end': '2955.840', 'text': 'Thank you And um I think all three of you\xa0\nkind of already talked about touch on my'}, {'start': '2955.840', 'end': '2959.840', 'text': "second questions but I'm still going to ask\xa0\njust in case there are some other things that"}, {'start': '2959.840', 'end': '2968.240', 'text': 'um we should um hear from you Um so I think\xa0\nthis is more of an extension um from James'}, {'start': '2968.240', 'end': '2974.160', 'text': 'um presentation specifically thinking about\xa0\nthe persistence of the political type wait'}, {'start': '2974.160', 'end': '2981.120', 'text': "the politicization of the 228 um memory\xa0\nright so um if we're thinking about that"}, {'start': '2981.120', 'end': '2986.320', 'text': 'kind of status like what strategy whether\xa0\ninstitutional or cultural or pedagogical'}, {'start': '2986.320', 'end': '2992.880', 'text': 'um do you see as like probably any most effective\xa0\nif not if we have to choose um most effective for'}, {'start': '2992.880', 'end': '3010.800', 'text': 'like fostering a shared understanding um\xa0\nof historical truths in this society today'}, {'start': '3010.800', 'end': '3021.800', 'text': 'The\nbest show you the [Laughter]'}, {'start': '3031.760', 'end': '3047.600', 'text': 'This is short'}, {'start': '3074.400', 'end': '3080.960', 'text': 'for this answer for this question I I do not\xa0\nhave the answer now because as a historian'}, {'start': '3080.960', 'end': '3090.880', 'text': 'I sometimes feel helpless because some people\xa0\nthey just chose to believe what they believed in'}, {'start': '3090.880', 'end': '3095.920', 'text': 'I can give a personal very quick personal answer\xa0\nI mean Taiwan is a democratic society and so'}, {'start': '3095.920', 'end': '3100.720', 'text': 'questions about transitional justice I think\xa0\nare up to the Taiwanese people as a democratic'}, {'start': '3100.720', 'end': '3111.600', 'text': "society to decide right Um that's just my opinion\xa0\nUm I I kept I kept wondering I kept wondering if"}, {'start': '3111.600', 'end': '3122.480', 'text': 'your question earlier is also about whether the\xa0\nfamilies or victims are somehow um exploited'}, {'start': '3122.480', 'end': '3133.040', 'text': 'politically Were you thinking about that also or\xa0\nyeah I I think this is inevitable in in a in any'}, {'start': '3133.040', 'end': '3144.080', 'text': 'country with a kind of traumatic historical past\xa0\nthat the victims can be exploited for a particular'}, {'start': '3144.080', 'end': '3154.720', 'text': "uh political gain and and that's something um\xa0\nexcept for um vigilance on the people's side Um"}, {'start': '3154.720', 'end': '3166.880', 'text': "it's something really hard to avoid And regarding\xa0\nthe 228 incident um I'm often thinking about"}, {'start': '3166.880', 'end': '3174.960', 'text': "uh victims of the Holocaust and how they are\xa0\nslowly dying out You know pretty soon we're going"}, {'start': '3174.960', 'end': '3181.920', 'text': "to I think it's already happening this the last\xa0\nvictim out of this concentration camp the last"}, {'start': '3181.920', 'end': '3190.880', 'text': "victim of this And um I think pretty soon we're\xa0\nnot going to have firsthand information witness or"}, {'start': '3190.880', 'end': '3200.000', 'text': 'u from um the 228 incident And how are we going\xa0\nto continue that tradition of remembering is going'}, {'start': '3200.000', 'end': '3207.840', 'text': 'to be based on their family their offsprings and\xa0\nthe third generation for instance and people who'}, {'start': '3207.840', 'end': '3217.040', 'text': 'like us or people like him who are interested in\xa0\ncontinuing the memory to keep it alive And so once'}, {'start': '3217.040', 'end': '3224.960', 'text': "again it's she asked me the tough questions So um\xa0\nI realized that my last question is probably more"}, {'start': '3224.960', 'end': '3229.360', 'text': 'will serve better as a concluding questions\xa0\nfor this entire round table because I have'}, {'start': '3229.360', 'end': '3233.200', 'text': "to ask about your thoughts about transistional\xa0\njustice in town but we're going to leave that to"}, {'start': '3233.200', 'end': '3241.520', 'text': "the end I'm going to open the floor now in case\xa0\nthere's any questions coming from the audience"}, {'start': '3241.520', 'end': '3248.560', 'text': "Um I'll try to speak loudly so that people in\xa0\nthe back can hear Um I was in Taiwan studying"}, {'start': '3248.560', 'end': '3259.840', 'text': 'in 88 and 89 And the prevailing sense\xa0\nat that time of everyone I spoke to was'}, {'start': '3259.840', 'end': '3270.960', 'text': 'um one of extreme gratitude if not exhilaration\xa0\nthat there was finally a public discussion about'}, {'start': '3270.960', 'end': '3277.040', 'text': "this horrible horrible thing that had happened\xa0\nand hurt so many people So it's very interesting"}, {'start': '3277.040', 'end': '3284.160', 'text': 'to me to hear that has become actually what in\xa0\nEnglish we call a hot potato because people I'}, {'start': '3284.160', 'end': '3295.360', 'text': "don't think it's on Ah uh it's become a hot potato\xa0\nand subject to um use in ways that have maybe made"}, {'start': '3295.360', 'end': '3303.360', 'text': 'it a more sensitive or difficult topic than in\xa0\nthe late 80s But my question is for Professor Shiu'}, {'start': '3303.360', 'end': '3312.400', 'text': 'You mentioned that in the early 2000s so in the\xa0\nearly 21st century um as there was discussion of'}, {'start': '3312.400', 'end': '3319.040', 'text': 'how to deal with transitional justice and how\xa0\nto deal with a question of reparations to the'}, {'start': '3319.040', 'end': '3327.360', 'text': 'victims The conclusion was that the easiest thing\xa0\nwas to give people money And I thought this was'}, {'start': '3327.360', 'end': '3333.840', 'text': 'really a fascinating observation because in the\xa0\nUnited States context we have had one instance'}, {'start': '3333.840', 'end': '3342.400', 'text': 'of reparation involving the Japanese Americans\xa0\nwho were interned in 1942 Um but the question'}, {'start': '3342.400', 'end': '3348.800', 'text': 'of those who are descended from child slavery and\xa0\ntheir potential for compensation and particularly'}, {'start': '3348.800', 'end': '3354.320', 'text': 'monetary any monetary compensation is\xa0\ntreated as extraordinarily sensitive'}, {'start': '3354.320', 'end': '3362.880', 'text': 'So can you say a little bit more about why in\xa0\nthe Taiwan context monetary compensation seemed'}, {'start': '3362.880', 'end': '3371.520', 'text': 'easier than other kinds of compensation and what\xa0\nwere the other kinds that were being sought Yeah'}, {'start': '3371.520', 'end': '3385.840', 'text': 'I just give you the example of the statute of\xa0\nFrancisco Franco in one year Spanish uh removed'}, {'start': '3385.840', 'end': '3396.800', 'text': "all the status but uh in Taipei there's still a\xa0\nmemorial hall of Chieng Kai Shek even everybody"}, {'start': '3396.800', 'end': '3411.440', 'text': "know he's the chief responsibility responsible for\xa0\nthe the crime but uh is still worshiped by some"}, {'start': '3425.200', 'end': '3425.760', 'text': 'the'}, {'start': '3425.760', 'end': '3441.840', 'text': 'the So every time when the discussion was brought\xa0\nup about abolishing the authoritarian figures and'}, {'start': '3441.840', 'end': '3458.560', 'text': 'monuments in society It always came up with the\xa0\nopposition and the tension in society in Taiwan'}, {'start': '3458.560', 'end': '3464.880', 'text': 'So the government they just tend\xa0\nto use a more solution in harmony'}, {'start': '3464.880', 'end': '3469.600', 'text': 'peaceful to deal with this kind of controversy'}, {'start': '3475.040', 'end': '3479.920', 'text': 'district'}, {'start': '3479.920', 'end': '3488.080', 'text': "So that's why on our uh money we still\xa0\nhave Chex figure and even in the Chinese"}, {'start': '3488.080', 'end': '3498.320', 'text': 'uh street naming sorry Taiwan street naming\xa0\nmap you can still see his remnants on our map'}, {'start': '3505.920', 'end': '3512.560', 'text': "Even in Taiwan some historians they have this kind\xa0\nof attitude and stance It's like the victims you"}, {'start': '3512.560', 'end': '3522.560', 'text': "already got the conversation and uh reparations\xa0\nSo then you shouldn't be complaining more"}, {'start': '3522.560', 'end': '3530.560', 'text': 'I I would like to share my thoughts on this Um\xa0\nthis has to in my view has a lot to do with the'}, {'start': '3530.560', 'end': '3538.720', 'text': 'issue of accountability and um with the 228\xa0\nincident the the issue of accountability was'}, {'start': '3538.720', 'end': '3549.120', 'text': 'never resolved and uh who ordered and and\xa0\num with the research um the one that Dr'}, {'start': '3549.120', 'end': '3557.600', 'text': 'just just read to you about uh calling Jang\xa0\nKaishek as the the um culprit and then and and'}, {'start': '3557.600', 'end': '3564.560', 'text': 'his grandson actually launched a lawsuit against\xa0\nthe research group and the the judge the court say'}, {'start': '3564.560', 'end': '3571.360', 'text': 'this academic uh research freedom kn so he lost\xa0\nthe case but still the accountability is still'}, {'start': '3571.360', 'end': '3578.960', 'text': "there apparently Junkai's family never really um\xa0\nfelt that they were responsible the people are"}, {'start': '3578.960', 'end': '3584.320', 'text': 'um that the garrison command that all these people\xa0\ninvolved in arresting executing people were never'}, {'start': '3584.320', 'end': '3593.440', 'text': 'brought to justice were not even mentioned and so\xa0\num and I think for me in my view I guess historian'}, {'start': '3593.440', 'end': '3600.400', 'text': 'may have a different uh interpretation I just feel\xa0\nlike the 228 incident was brought up too early'}, {'start': '3600.400', 'end': '3607.920', 'text': "in Taiwan's history that was at a very fragile\xa0\nmoment of Taiwan democracy it was just too young"}, {'start': '3607.920', 'end': '3620.000', 'text': 'and the the DPP was um afraid that bring making\xa0\naccountability a main issue would eventually push'}, {'start': '3620.000', 'end': '3626.960', 'text': 'Taiwan into a different direction and worse uh\xa0\ndirection that they expected to go So um I think'}, {'start': '3626.960', 'end': '3634.640', 'text': "monetary compensation became an easier way out\xa0\nwithout losing sight to so it's a way to force"}, {'start': '3634.640', 'end': '3642.560', 'text': "people to say yes it did happen but let's forget\xa0\nabout who was responsible and so it was easier"}, {'start': '3642.560', 'end': '3653.280', 'text': "in that case that when you said it's happened to\xa0\nmore easily than say in the in the United States"}, {'start': '3653.280', 'end': '3653.760', 'text': 'more questions'}, {'start': '3663.040', 'end': '3673.840', 'text': "repeat the question Oh yeah we can do that Yeah\xa0\nSo I think since we're edit series we just have"}, {'start': '3673.840', 'end': '3683.280', 'text': 'Hello my name is John Cho I live in Seattle for 49\xa0\nyears So I come from Taiwan to study at University'}, {'start': '3683.280', 'end': '3692.160', 'text': "of Washington So just to let you know and I don't\xa0\nknow 228 that much when I come to United States"}, {'start': '3692.160', 'end': '3697.440', 'text': 'same as everybody Then I start to read some\xa0\nbooks I understand more and more and I think'}, {'start': '3697.440', 'end': '3706.720', 'text': "it's a very tragic situation that people should\xa0\nknow and I'm very glad that finally uh more 22A"}, {'start': '3706.720', 'end': '3716.640', 'text': 'incidents uh talk talk has been happening in the\xa0\nTaiwan study in this area and also in modern world'}, {'start': '3716.640', 'end': '3725.040', 'text': "uh it's a free country so people can talk about\xa0\nit but again the same thing is that history is"}, {'start': '3725.040', 'end': '3733.840', 'text': 'interpreted by the people who has power and we\xa0\nsaw like in China uh those people who live in'}, {'start': '3733.840', 'end': '3741.920', 'text': "China has a mentality quite different from us\xa0\nand that's a very good example why they think"}, {'start': '3741.920', 'end': '3749.120', 'text': "that way is they have a very successful way\xa0\nof controlling people's thinking by lots of"}, {'start': '3749.120', 'end': '3758.240', 'text': "uh propaganda for them to believe Now in the\xa0\ncase of Taiwan it's to a degree similar to that"}, {'start': '3758.240', 'end': '3764.480', 'text': "Although James Lein professor would say it's\xa0\na free country democratic so people can say"}, {'start': '3764.480', 'end': '3774.320', 'text': 'what they want But Taiwanese people is a quiet\xa0\npeople They dare not to speak thing out So for'}, {'start': '3774.320', 'end': '3784.320', 'text': 'over 70 years at least the first 30 40 years the\xa0\npeople who can talk is those people come from qu'}, {'start': '3784.320', 'end': '3793.520', 'text': 'why some of them come from um mainland China come\xa0\nfrom mainland China in uh 1945 and to 47 so after'}, {'start': '3793.520', 'end': '3802.960', 'text': 'that in 30 years you see the article being talked\xa0\nabout is always talk about by them point of view'}, {'start': '3802.960', 'end': '3811.920', 'text': 'So some of them has a free uh freedom thinking So\xa0\nwe appreciate that very much Even nowadays you can'}, {'start': '3811.920', 'end': '3821.680', 'text': 'see that this tapians situation is happening\xa0\npretty hot in Taiwan But Taiwanese people is'}, {'start': '3821.680', 'end': '3830.480', 'text': 'always looking for those uh mainlander to say\xa0\nsome good thing about us and so we feel very happy'}, {'start': '3830.480', 'end': '3839.920', 'text': "So in Taiwan's situation although majority\xa0\nof people is Taiwanese but they is not able"}, {'start': '3839.920', 'end': '3849.360', 'text': 'to express well even DPP becoming in power by\xa0\nsaying he they representing the majority of'}, {'start': '3849.360', 'end': '3858.000', 'text': 'people of Taiwanese they want to do transitional\xa0\njustice They want to reform They want to do a'}, {'start': '3858.000', 'end': '3864.640', 'text': "lot of things and eventually they won because\xa0\npeople realize yeah that's a good thing to do"}, {'start': '3864.640', 'end': '3872.000', 'text': "after DPP gaining power after a couple of years\xa0\nthey start to feel that let's not stir up think"}, {'start': '3872.000', 'end': '3880.080', 'text': 'too much although justice is important but\xa0\nharmony is more important so I want to ask'}, {'start': '3880.080', 'end': '3887.120', 'text': 'uh all of you if you can answer is that what\xa0\ndo you think in the future about transition'}, {'start': '3887.120', 'end': '3894.720', 'text': 'justice should do What do you think the DPP\xa0\ngovernment what kind of thing they are not able'}, {'start': '3894.720', 'end': '3907.040', 'text': 'to accomplish Need a big uh effort from people to\xa0\nlet DPP know I know DPP probably will uh in power'}, {'start': '3907.040', 'end': '3913.920', 'text': "for a long time but um but they cannot postpone\xa0\nlike that You know there's no transitional"}, {'start': '3913.920', 'end': '3936.000', 'text': "justice really happening That's my question\xa0\nand I want to know your thinking Thank you"}, {'start': '3943.280', 'end': '3965.760', 'text': 'I saychech'}, {'start': '3975.440', 'end': '3995.520', 'text': 'Soch'}, {'start': '4034.560', 'end': '4049.040', 'text': 'So nice'}, {'start': '4059.040', 'end': '4074.000', 'text': 'Fore Foreign Foreign'}, {'start': '4097.840', 'end': '4107.360', 'text': "So after 228 incident um the white terror just\xa0\nuh subsequently came arrived So the Tony's people"}, {'start': '4107.360', 'end': '4116.720', 'text': 'were uh experienced 40 years of martial law\xa0\nafter that uh and was forced to um be silent'}, {'start': '4116.720', 'end': '4126.080', 'text': 'about the event the incident happened in the\xa0\npast and then living in fear and I think and'}, {'start': '4126.080', 'end': '4132.400', 'text': 'um so the transitional just is hard\xa0\nto achieve especially for the victims'}, {'start': '4132.400', 'end': '4140.080', 'text': 'um of the timing incident because Many people\xa0\neven in your family history um people were'}, {'start': '4140.080', 'end': '4147.920', 'text': 'reluctant to talk about what happened in the\xa0\npast So the memory in the past remain blank and'}, {'start': '4147.920', 'end': '4156.720', 'text': "uh even if the transitional justice the the the\xa0\nact was passed in executive run uh it's estimated"}, {'start': '4156.720', 'end': '4166.320', 'text': 'of about 14,000 of compensation but then actually\xa0\nonly five to 6,000 people for the family of the'}, {'start': '4166.320', 'end': '4173.520', 'text': 'victim can to claim it So that shows that they\xa0\nwere reluctant or they were fearful to come to'}, {'start': '4173.520', 'end': '4180.320', 'text': 'claim of what deserve what they deserved to have\xa0\nbecause many of them they were still living in'}, {'start': '4180.320', 'end': '4188.000', 'text': 'fear of the history that they are worried that\xa0\nwhat if in the future the government chose to'}, {'start': '4188.000', 'end': '4196.160', 'text': "uh retaliate against them just like what happened\xa0\nin the past So for us um it's an important task to"}, {'start': '4196.160', 'end': '4204.160', 'text': 'to seek truth and to try our best to uh disclosure\xa0\nwhat had happened in the past But then one of the'}, {'start': '4204.160', 'end': '4216.560', 'text': 'challenges still some people they still refuse\xa0\nto believe what actually happened in the past'}, {'start': '4217.680', 'end': '4227.040', 'text': 'I think what we can say denial deniers are always\xa0\ngoing to deny Uh we have holocaust deniers We'}, {'start': '4227.040', 'end': '4235.920', 'text': "have people who deny that we actually went to the\xa0\nmoon So um I don't think we are to let them stop"}, {'start': '4235.920', 'end': '4246.480', 'text': 'us from doing what is right And as Dr Shaw said\xa0\nwe have to keep working on it and keep making it'}, {'start': '4246.480', 'end': '4251.760', 'text': 'uh available to dig up the truth make it\xa0\navailable to the people in this generation'}, {'start': '4251.760', 'end': '4261.040', 'text': "and next generation It's our responsibility to our\xa0\ngen next generation and hopefully their generation"}, {'start': '4261.040', 'end': '4268.640', 'text': "will continue to pass on the the knowledge the\xa0\ninformation and we can't fight people who deny"}, {'start': '4268.640', 'end': '4275.760', 'text': 'something happens because you can change their\xa0\nmind I agree with everything that said Um I would'}, {'start': '4275.760', 'end': '4281.200', 'text': "just add that it's important that Taiwan does\xa0\nthis the process of transitional justice as a"}, {'start': '4281.200', 'end': '4286.320', 'text': "democracy because it's a question of you know\xa0\nif we were to assume that we were political"}, {'start': '4286.320', 'end': '4291.840', 'text': "scientists it's a question of legitimacy Um\xa0\nyou can conduct transitional justice in any"}, {'start': '4291.840', 'end': '4296.720', 'text': 'kind of government regime You can do it in an\xa0\nauthoritarian regime But the question is does an'}, {'start': '4296.720', 'end': '4302.000', 'text': 'authoritarian regime carrying out transitional\xa0\njustice have any kind of legitimacy behind it'}, {'start': '4302.000', 'end': '4308.080', 'text': 'And so I think that when Taiwan as a democracy\xa0\ndetermines its own path of transitional justice'}, {'start': '4308.080', 'end': '4313.680', 'text': 'it carries more legitimacy if you can have the\xa0\nconsent of the majority as a political process'}, {'start': '4313.680', 'end': '4318.400', 'text': "to agree upon what happened in the past It's\xa0\nvery difficult of course in a democracy because"}, {'start': '4318.400', 'end': '4325.600', 'text': "you don't control you know deniers people who\xa0\num will reject the opinions of experts like"}, {'start': '4325.600', 'end': '4332.080', 'text': "professor shu professor Lin and so that's that's\xa0\na very difficult part of navigating the democratic"}, {'start': '4332.080', 'end': '4337.280', 'text': 'process but if you can do it successfully if you\xa0\ncan have the majority that through education can'}, {'start': '4337.280', 'end': '4341.600', 'text': "come to a conclusion about transitional justice\xa0\nas an important part of what I'm saying in the"}, {'start': '4341.600', 'end': '4345.520', 'text': "past and I think you have a much more resilient\xa0\nkind of truth and that's that's what I wanted"}, {'start': '4345.520', 'end': '4351.520', 'text': "point to as it's an important part of the\xa0\ndemocratic process So you're essentially"}, {'start': '4351.520', 'end': '4357.680', 'text': "saying they're allowed to deny because we\xa0\nare a democracy Well I think that's the the"}, {'start': '4357.680', 'end': '4368.960', 'text': 'truth that comes out from a process that goes\xa0\nthrough that is a much more resilient truth'}, {'start': '4437.840', 'end': '4446.480', 'text': 'So one challenge of the transitional justice\xa0\nin Taiwan was because um uh Taiwan has a very'}, {'start': '4446.480', 'end': '4456.080', 'text': "powerful enemy as close to us and so that there's\xa0\na possibility that the um the other party which"}, {'start': '4456.080', 'end': '4462.240', 'text': 'is not governing now might collaborate might\xa0\ncollaborate with the enemy and that will cause'}, {'start': '4462.240', 'end': '4471.360', 'text': 'the internal conflict and uh unrest So unlike\xa0\nthe the act in Spain where even though the vote'}, {'start': '4471.360', 'end': '4483.680', 'text': 'was so closely tied um they can still remove the\xa0\ntomb of the the previous authoritarian um ruler'}, {'start': '4483.680', 'end': '4487.680', 'text': 'Do you have more question coming from the audience'}, {'start': '4489.440', 'end': '4500.000', 'text': "Um I'll just ask the mic Okay Um mostly most most\xa0\nlikely question is for for professor James Lin"}, {'start': '4500.000', 'end': '4506.480', 'text': 'um because talked about three keys that I agree\xa0\na lot to think to think with along with that'}, {'start': '4506.480', 'end': '4516.080', 'text': "idea on on 228's event but also regarding the\xa0\nexperience we mostly see how the islander okay"}, {'start': '4516.080', 'end': '4523.600', 'text': 'the venerance experience being suppressed\xa0\nand then nowadays revoked or being revealed'}, {'start': '4523.600', 'end': '4533.520', 'text': 'mostly but do we have any suppressed mainlanders\xa0\nexperience that is in lack of to to make the whole'}, {'start': '4533.520', 'end': '4542.640', 'text': 'experience more complete so that this memory this\xa0\nevent and this pedagogy could be more been trans'}, {'start': '4542.640', 'end': '4549.360', 'text': 'uh trans transmitted as a whole in that case I\xa0\nmean do we have anything in lack by now as you'}, {'start': '4549.360', 'end': '4554.880', 'text': "I mean probably it's not the main case that you\xa0\nstudy but do Do you still find there's any case"}, {'start': '4554.880', 'end': '4563.200', 'text': "that we're in lack of when you think about history\xa0\nmaking case in like regarding both the mainlanders"}, {'start': '4563.200', 'end': '4573.600', 'text': 'and islanders experience here or or both I mean\xa0\nall other uh uh speakers can respond I think maybe'}, {'start': '4573.600', 'end': '4580.320', 'text': "professor she might be more knowledgeable about\xa0\nthis than I am I um I'm not aware Um I think one"}, {'start': '4580.320', 'end': '4585.520', 'text': 'one is a demographic issue which is that most\xa0\nwestern came to Taiwan in 1949 Uh so those who'}, {'start': '4585.520', 'end': '4591.680', 'text': "were present in 1947 are much smaller number Um\xa0\nI I'm not aware of any sort I think professor"}, {'start': '4591.680', 'end': '4598.960', 'text': "street is probably more knowledgeable or does\xa0\nit help I'm just like a theoretical question"}, {'start': '4598.960', 'end': '4606.960', 'text': 'Does this this kind of experience help for\xa0\ncurrent or the the Taiwanese people really'}, {'start': '4606.960', 'end': '4616.000', 'text': 'think to the way as a as a collective experience\xa0\nfor all of us Yeah I I think as as a historian'}, {'start': '4616.000', 'end': '4620.720', 'text': 'I would say the more data the better the more\xa0\num primary sources that we have access to the'}, {'start': '4620.720', 'end': '4628.240', 'text': 'the the better kind of history that um you know\xa0\npeople like like us can reconstruct for the past'}, {'start': '4628.240', 'end': '4633.040', 'text': 'So I would say if we have those access to those\xa0\nrecords we should do our best to try to publicize'}, {'start': '4633.040', 'end': '4638.640', 'text': 'them and use them to educate um the public about\xa0\nthe February 20th incident I think my my sense'}, {'start': '4638.640', 'end': '4650.240', 'text': 'is that if there were records about this they\xa0\nwould probably reinforce what we already know'}, {'start': '4659.840', 'end': '4673.280', 'text': "You're so easy"}, {'start': '4682.080', 'end': '4693.840', 'text': 'What you need'}, {'start': '4700.720', 'end': '4701.040', 'text': 'her'}, {'start': '4701.040', 'end': '4724.720', 'text': 'father So under martial law there are victims\xa0\nThere were victims and people benefited from it'}, {'start': '4724.720', 'end': '4728.080', 'text': "So I'm going to give an example of what happened"}, {'start': '4728.080', 'end': '4736.640', 'text': "uh during the TU incident which was in Halian and\xa0\nthere's a a doctor and his two sons were murdered"}, {'start': '4736.640', 'end': '4744.080', 'text': 'uh under the under the incident but however\xa0\nthere the grandson afterwards became very'}, {'start': '4744.080', 'end': '4750.080', 'text': 'close friends with the KMT party and\xa0\nhe just kept denying of the tragedy'}, {'start': '4760.720', 'end': '4774.000', 'text': 'We have any questions coming from the\xa0\naudience Yes please Gentleman in the very back'}, {'start': '4774.000', 'end': '4783.200', 'text': "So yeah I'm studying like modern Chinese history\xa0\nand uh a very important question for for mainland"}, {'start': '4783.200', 'end': '4789.120', 'text': 'China is also trans transitional justice So\xa0\nafter the cultural revolution how should we'}, {'start': '4789.120', 'end': '4798.560', 'text': "deal with the past Uh and so one example I have\xa0\nin my mind is there's a like poor peasant at the"}, {'start': '4798.560', 'end': '4810.720', 'text': "very beginning of 1949 who gradually take on power\xa0\nbecause he's an activist and he uh so he pro for"}, {'start': '4810.720', 'end': '4820.240', 'text': "the government's like uh policy and later on he\xa0\nhe gained power but in the cultural revolution he"}, {'start': '4820.240', 'end': '4829.600', 'text': 'was like uh thrown over and he became uh\xa0\nhe he was locked down into prison So after'}, {'start': '4829.600', 'end': '4837.760', 'text': 'uh the culture revolution how to decide he\xa0\nwas a victim or not became a really important'}, {'start': '4837.760', 'end': '4849.440', 'text': 'question So how who has the power to decide\xa0\nwho should be the victim of like 2Q8 uh or who'}, {'start': '4850.080', 'end': '4857.840', 'text': "was like voiceless in the history are still\xa0\nvoiceless now Uh that's my question and"}, {'start': '4857.840', 'end': '4875.920', 'text': 'also my problem in my research So\xa0\nI want to ask for your advice Yeah'}, {'start': '4912.720', 'end': '4914.720', 'text': 'Peace'}, {'start': '4947.400', 'end': '4948.400', 'text': '[Music]'}, {'start': '4948.400', 'end': '4955.600', 'text': 'So in in communist society the the the\xa0\ngoverning party holds the absolute absolute'}, {'start': '4955.600', 'end': '4963.920', 'text': 'power to the truth and the history However\xa0\nin democratic society um there are lots of'}, {'start': '4963.920', 'end': '4970.720', 'text': 'memories and voices going on from either\xa0\ngovernment or the the public and we have'}, {'start': '4970.720', 'end': '4985.200', 'text': 'to somehow integrate the oral history and to um\xa0\ndig which one was true and which might be colored'}, {'start': '4985.200', 'end': '4992.240', 'text': "Anything to add Yeah it's it's very hard to say\xa0\nI mean one of my adviserss at Berkeley Alex Cook"}, {'start': '4992.240', 'end': '4997.840', 'text': 'wrote his book about you know the gang of four\xa0\ntrials and the notions of transitional justice'}, {'start': '4997.840', 'end': '5002.320', 'text': "Um I don't I don't really have a good answer\xa0\nfor you Zin And this is the reason why it's"}, {'start': '5002.320', 'end': '5011.600', 'text': 'a good dissertation topic So I look forward to\xa0\nreading your research You tell us in four years'}, {'start': '5011.600', 'end': '5016.640', 'text': "So I'm looking at the time We're running\xa0\nclose to five but um John took away the"}, {'start': '5016.640', 'end': '5022.080', 'text': "question I wanted to ask as a perfect concluding\xa0\nquestion So I'm going to ask one last question"}, {'start': '5022.080', 'end': '5028.000', 'text': 'um shifting away a little bit away from\xa0\nthis um theme of traditional justice and'}, {'start': '5028.000', 'end': '5033.840', 'text': 'ask something more um about uh more out of\xa0\nmy personal curiosity since all three of you'}, {'start': '5033.840', 'end': '5041.520', 'text': 'um are either current or former um professors I\xa0\nI wanted to ask what does like teaching about 228'}, {'start': '5041.520', 'end': '5046.160', 'text': "um in the classroom looks like since\xa0\nwe're holding this in a university setting"}, {'start': '5049.120', 'end': '5055.200', 'text': 'also kind of forcing James to to to respond to\xa0\nmy request to talk about education in the global'}, {'start': '5055.200', 'end': '5062.320', 'text': "context Oh you got it My presentation that's\xa0\nthat's exactly how it incidents is is um I mean"}, {'start': '5062.320', 'end': '5067.120', 'text': "it's across different lectures because I I split\xa0\nit up into you know I first I first talk about"}, {'start': '5067.120', 'end': '5075.440', 'text': 'the incident itself and then I assign um um Steven\xa0\nPhillips uh who is kind of like the authoritative'}, {'start': '5075.440', 'end': '5081.680', 'text': "um historian who's who's looking at the transition\xa0\nunder the golden dong under Senate Lee and then I"}, {'start': '5081.680', 'end': '5088.160', 'text': 'look at the the reverberations of that later on\xa0\nSo for example when I teach narwhag about post'}, {'start': '5088.160', 'end': '5095.440', 'text': "authoritarianism then February 28th or it's ghost\xa0\ncomes up again um when I teach about transition"}, {'start': '5095.440', 'end': '5100.560', 'text': "justice and about Taiwan's democratization you\xa0\nknow February 28th comes up again so yeah kind"}, {'start': '5100.560', 'end': '5105.840', 'text': 'of what I what I just spoken about is basically\xa0\nhow I teach the February 28th incident and I'}, {'start': '5105.840', 'end': '5111.200', 'text': "um I there's one part I didn't mention which\xa0\num you know professor Shu mentioned which is"}, {'start': '5111.200', 'end': '5116.560', 'text': 'um I I do have a a different section about\xa0\ntransitional justice done through Joseph'}, {'start': '5116.560', 'end': '5123.120', 'text': "Allen's study of Taipei and it's very specifically\xa0\nI think chapter seven which is about the Chiang"}, {'start': '5123.120', 'end': '5131.760', 'text': "statues and how the statues represent transitional\xa0\njustice and it's um it's not a smooth process It's"}, {'start': '5131.760', 'end': '5136.400', 'text': 'kind of a start and stop process and in some\xa0\nways it it ends up being a very kind of like'}, {'start': '5136.400', 'end': '5141.680', 'text': 'postmodern process If you any of you have been to\xa0\nSukhu which is what the chapter is about and the'}, {'start': '5141.680', 'end': '5145.920', 'text': 'collection of the various um aesthetic\xa0\nrepresentations of Chiang Kai Shek and'}, {'start': '5145.920', 'end': '5152.400', 'text': "Sunnis it's very postmodern kind of kit And then\xa0\nthat's in some ways it's it's a representation of"}, {'start': '5152.400', 'end': '5158.560', 'text': "transitional justice Sometimes it's it's absurd\xa0\nSometimes it's it's weird Um it's not what you"}, {'start': '5158.560', 'end': '5163.200', 'text': "would expect Sometimes it's humorous in some ways\xa0\nI mean not it shouldn't be humorous but in some"}, {'start': '5163.200', 'end': '5169.360', 'text': "ways from some directions when it's assembled in\xa0\ncertain ways it is humorous Um so yeah I go into"}, {'start': '5169.360', 'end': '5174.560', 'text': 'that as well and then I also compare that with\xa0\nfor example transitional justice elsewhere So'}, {'start': '5174.560', 'end': '5180.720', 'text': 'like the post Soviet states um the United States\xa0\nI compare it with the Confederacy and Confederate'}, {'start': '5180.720', 'end': '5188.960', 'text': "statues Um yeah I mean if you're interested\xa0\nyou can sit in my class I'll teach it again"}, {'start': '5190.800', 'end': '5198.240', 'text': 'I think I like to say I had an easier\xa0\njob because I taught literature and film'}, {'start': '5198.240', 'end': '5206.320', 'text': 'and with mostly short stories that we can\xa0\nreally dig into the characters and their'}, {'start': '5206.320', 'end': '5215.360', 'text': 'their emotional state and their experience So\xa0\nfor and I I taught only undergraduate classes'}, {'start': '5215.360', 'end': '5222.640', 'text': 'So in that case I think the student could\xa0\nappreciate through this literary works and'}, {'start': '5222.640', 'end': '5231.840', 'text': 'they can at some at some level even relate to\xa0\nthe characters experience not in terms of you'}, {'start': '5231.840', 'end': '5240.160', 'text': "know it's more a symbolic way So I don't find\xa0\nit hard I think uh that's why literature has"}, {'start': '5240.160', 'end': '5251.840', 'text': 'this power to be to perhaps transcend um\xa0\ngeographical and even political boundaries'}, {'start': '5251.840', 'end': '5263.440', 'text': 'uh\nDPP Fore Foreign'}, {'start': '5263.440', 'end': '5284.080', 'text': 'Foreign Fore Foreign Foreign'}, {'start': '5303.440', 'end': '5314.080', 'text': 'Memorial'}, {'start': '5326.560', 'end': '5332.720', 'text': 'memorial'}, {'start': '5332.720', 'end': '5340.960', 'text': 'So uh the ruling party uh TPP now they\xa0\nactually have done a lot in terms of achieving'}, {'start': '5340.960', 'end': '5347.840', 'text': 'um transitional justice including in the schools\xa0\nor in the government department They required'}, {'start': '5347.840', 'end': '5356.320', 'text': 'all the public servants to reflect on the past\xa0\nand to uh write the wrongs they did in the past'}, {'start': '5356.320', 'end': '5364.960', 'text': 'But then however for the victims of the f for the\xa0\nfamily of the victims they always tend to take the'}, {'start': '5364.960', 'end': '5369.760', 'text': 'uh whether to remove the Shanghai\xa0\nshake memorial pole and the grave'}, {'start': '5369.760', 'end': '5380.320', 'text': 'special as an indicator of whether the DPB\xa0\nis doing is correcting the wrongs enough'}, {'start': '5380.320', 'end': '5385.120', 'text': 'Um thank you so much I know James is\xa0\nkind of reminding me of the time but'}, {'start': '5385.120', 'end': '5389.440', 'text': "yeah we're slightly past five and I\xa0\nwant to thank you for being with us"}, {'start': '5389.440', 'end': '5394.560', 'text': 'this evening and special thanks\xa0\nto our three speakers Um so yeah'}, {'start': '5394.560', 'end': '5400.800', 'text': 'um this is I guess our Q&A session kind of\xa0\nreflect how difficult this entire subject'}, {'start': '5400.800', 'end': '5409.445', 'text': 'is and I hope there will be more conversation\xa0\ncoming out of this Thank you again [Applause]'}]