Meet Parliament's human rights watchdog
Hansard Society
[{'start': '1.090', 'end': '3.760', 'text': '[Music]'}, {'start': '2.320', 'end': '5.520', 'text': 'You are listening to Parliament Matters,'}, {'start': '3.760', 'end': '7.279', 'text': 'a Hansard Society production supported'}, {'start': '5.520', 'end': '9.839', 'text': 'by the Joseph Roundry Charitable Trust.'}, {'start': '7.279', 'end': '9.839', 'text': 'Learn more at'}, {'start': '10.940', 'end': '18.080', 'text': '[Music]'}, {'start': '16.600', 'end': '19.760', 'text': 'hamsadsocciety.org.uk/pm. Welcome to'}, {'start': '18.080', 'end': '21.199', 'text': 'Parliament Matters, the podcast about'}, {'start': '19.760', 'end': '23.840', 'text': 'the institution at the heart of our'}, {'start': '21.199', 'end': '26.240', 'text': "democracy, Parliament itself. I'm Ruth"}, {'start': '23.840', 'end': '28.560', 'text': "Fox. And I'm Mark Darcy. Coming up in"}, {'start': '26.240', 'end': '31.039', 'text': "this week's episode, Parliament's human"}, {'start': '28.560', 'end': '34.079', 'text': 'rights watchdog on when to growl, when'}, {'start': '31.039', 'end': '36.000', 'text': 'to bark, and when to bite. A new black'}, {'start': '34.079', 'end': '38.239', 'text': 'rod takes charge in the Palace of'}, {'start': '36.000', 'end': '40.399', 'text': "Westminster. And it's all quiet on the"}, {'start': '38.239', 'end': '43.280', 'text': 'assisted dying front in Westminster, but'}, {'start': '40.399', 'end': '43.280', 'text': 'not in the Scottish'}, {'start': '47.399', 'end': '51.680', 'text': "Parliament. First, Ruth, let's talk"}, {'start': '49.600', 'end': '53.440', 'text': "about human rights. There's a regular"}, {'start': '51.680', 'end': '55.440', 'text': 'drum beatat of criticism at the moment'}, {'start': '53.440', 'end': '57.600', 'text': 'and human rights rulings particularly to'}, {'start': '55.440', 'end': '60.000', 'text': 'do with immigration cases but on plenty'}, {'start': '57.600', 'end': '62.480', 'text': 'of other subjects as well. Attacks on'}, {'start': '60.000', 'end': '64.320', 'text': 'the whole concept of the UK being signed'}, {'start': '62.480', 'end': '66.000', 'text': 'up to the European Convention on Human'}, {'start': '64.320', 'end': '67.600', 'text': 'Rights which remember British lawyers'}, {'start': '66.000', 'end': '69.840', 'text': 'were actually instrumental in drafting'}, {'start': '67.600', 'end': '71.680', 'text': 'after the Second World War and also on'}, {'start': '69.840', 'end': '73.360', 'text': "judges and the rulings that they've been"}, {'start': '71.680', 'end': '75.040', 'text': "making. And it's a an issue that's"}, {'start': '73.360', 'end': '76.720', 'text': 'beginning to go to the heart of all'}, {'start': '75.040', 'end': '79.200', 'text': 'sorts of questions about the way the'}, {'start': '76.720', 'end': '80.640', 'text': 'rule of law works in this country. So,'}, {'start': '79.200', 'end': '83.119', 'text': 'we thought it was a good moment to go'}, {'start': '80.640', 'end': '85.520', 'text': "and talk to Parliament's in-house human"}, {'start': '83.119', 'end': '87.439', 'text': 'rights watchdog, the chair of the joint'}, {'start': '85.520', 'end': '90.240', 'text': 'committee on human rights, which is a'}, {'start': '87.439', 'end': '92.079', 'text': 'committee of both MPs and peers, a'}, {'start': '90.240', 'end': '94.799', 'text': "select committee. And it's chaired by a"}, {'start': '92.079', 'end': '97.200', 'text': 'slightly surprising person, Lord Alton.'}, {'start': '94.799', 'end': '99.479', 'text': 'Lord Alton was once David Alton, a'}, {'start': '97.200', 'end': '101.840', 'text': 'Liberal MP who is elected in'}, {'start': '99.479', 'end': '103.520', 'text': '1979 who eventually left the House of'}, {'start': '101.840', 'end': '106.479', 'text': 'Commons and a bit later on became a'}, {'start': '103.520', 'end': '108.720', 'text': 'non-aligned nonparty peer and has carved'}, {'start': '106.479', 'end': '111.200', 'text': 'out quite a role for himself on all'}, {'start': '108.720', 'end': '112.640', 'text': 'sorts of human rights issues and also'}, {'start': '111.200', 'end': '114.640', 'text': 'looking at things like the influence of'}, {'start': '112.640', 'end': '116.399', 'text': 'China. When we talked to him in the'}, {'start': '114.640', 'end': '118.000', 'text': 'Palace of Westminster at the occasional'}, {'start': '116.399', 'end': '119.680', 'text': 'clank of scaffolding and the odd'}, {'start': '118.000', 'end': '121.920', 'text': 'helicopter going past and so forth, so'}, {'start': '119.680', 'end': '124.320', 'text': 'apologies for the noises off. We began'}, {'start': '121.920', 'end': '126.320', 'text': "by asking him about what he's perceived"}, {'start': '124.320', 'end': '127.920', 'text': "to be the government's attitude to human"}, {'start': '126.320', 'end': '130.640', 'text': 'rights law. A lot of governments start'}, {'start': '127.920', 'end': '132.080', 'text': 'to chafe at the effect of human rights'}, {'start': '130.640', 'end': '133.840', 'text': 'decisions that cause them a bit of'}, {'start': '132.080', 'end': '135.760', 'text': "trouble. His committee's just spoken to"}, {'start': '133.840', 'end': '137.200', 'text': 'the Lord Chancellor Shabbana Mammud and'}, {'start': '135.760', 'end': '139.440', 'text': 'before that to the attorney general,'}, {'start': '137.200', 'end': '142.160', 'text': 'Lord Herma. So did he detect perhaps'}, {'start': '139.440', 'end': '144.000', 'text': 'just the start of a an irritation with'}, {'start': '142.160', 'end': '146.160', 'text': 'human rights law from those very senior'}, {'start': '144.000', 'end': '148.800', 'text': 'figures? I think that they are signed up'}, {'start': '146.160', 'end': '150.800', 'text': 'to a values-based approach to human'}, {'start': '148.800', 'end': '152.800', 'text': 'rights. How you interpret that through'}, {'start': '150.800', 'end': '154.480', 'text': "legislation and whether or not it's"}, {'start': '152.800', 'end': '156.879', 'text': 'still fit for purpose is another matter.'}, {'start': '154.480', 'end': '160.000', 'text': 'I I initiated a debate recently in the'}, {'start': '156.879', 'end': '161.840', 'text': 'Lords commemorating the 75th anniversary'}, {'start': '160.000', 'end': '163.360', 'text': 'of the European Convention on Human'}, {'start': '161.840', 'end': '165.200', 'text': 'Rights and pointed out of course that'}, {'start': '163.360', 'end': '167.200', 'text': 'this was the inspiration of Winston'}, {'start': '165.200', 'end': '169.200', 'text': 'Churchill but it was British lawyers'}, {'start': '167.200', 'end': '171.280', 'text': 'from both sides of the political divide.'}, {'start': '169.200', 'end': '174.800', 'text': 'People like Maxwell Fe and Hartley'}, {'start': '171.280', 'end': '176.959', 'text': 'Shawcross who engineered the European'}, {'start': '174.800', 'end': '179.319', 'text': 'approach to human rights. But this was'}, {'start': '176.959', 'end': '181.280', 'text': 'also being mirrored in the universal'}, {'start': '179.319', 'end': '183.280', 'text': 'declaration. This was coming in the'}, {'start': '181.280', 'end': '185.040', 'text': 'aftermath of the holocaust in the'}, {'start': '183.280', 'end': '187.519', 'text': 'aftermath of the terrible atrocities of'}, {'start': '185.040', 'end': '190.000', 'text': 'that period. Now when you look at things'}, {'start': '187.519', 'end': '192.480', 'text': 'like article 8 and how that is then used'}, {'start': '190.000', 'end': '194.080', 'text': 'to deal with issues around refugees, you'}, {'start': '192.480', 'end': '196.080', 'text': 'can see why the government itself is'}, {'start': '194.080', 'end': '198.640', 'text': 'having to think through whether it was'}, {'start': '196.080', 'end': '200.000', 'text': 'meant to be used in that way. And so I'}, {'start': '198.640', 'end': '202.159', 'text': "guess you could say yes, they're"}, {'start': '200.000', 'end': '204.000', 'text': 'values-based. They are committed, but'}, {'start': '202.159', 'end': '206.560', 'text': 'how you interpret it is another matter.'}, {'start': '204.000', 'end': '208.840', 'text': 'Article 8, right? family life, right? To'}, {'start': '206.560', 'end': '211.519', 'text': "family life. But it's beyond that. It's"}, {'start': '208.840', 'end': '213.599', 'text': 'also where someone could be separated'}, {'start': '211.519', 'end': '216.239', 'text': 'from their family who might have come'}, {'start': '213.599', 'end': '218.159', 'text': 'here for instance illegally. What the'}, {'start': '216.239', 'end': '219.760', 'text': "implications of that are, we've seen"}, {'start': '218.159', 'end': '221.360', 'text': "some headlines. We've asked the Lord"}, {'start': '219.760', 'end': '222.879', 'text': 'Chancellor and the Attorney General'}, {'start': '221.360', 'end': '224.400', 'text': 'specifically about some of the stories'}, {'start': '222.879', 'end': '227.280', 'text': 'that appeared and for instance the'}, {'start': '224.400', 'end': '229.840', 'text': 'so-called chicken nuggets story. People'}, {'start': '227.280', 'end': '231.760', 'text': "blame the European Court for that. It's"}, {'start': '229.840', 'end': '233.680', 'text': 'never gone to the European Court. This'}, {'start': '231.760', 'end': '236.239', 'text': 'was something that was before the lower'}, {'start': '233.680', 'end': '239.120', 'text': 'tier of the immigration tribunal in the'}, {'start': '236.239', 'end': '241.439', 'text': 'UK and which was overturned anyway by an'}, {'start': '239.120', 'end': '243.760', 'text': 'upper tier tribunal. I mean this was the'}, {'start': '241.439', 'end': '246.159', 'text': 'story of someone being allowed leave to'}, {'start': '243.760', 'end': '248.000', 'text': 'remain in Britain by the Lier tribunal'}, {'start': '246.159', 'end': '250.640', 'text': 'because their kid would miss chicken'}, {'start': '248.000', 'end': '252.959', 'text': "nuggets. Exactly. Now you can't put that"}, {'start': '250.640', 'end': '255.360', 'text': 'on a par with someone who has been'}, {'start': '252.959', 'end': '257.440', 'text': 'driven out of a country like Sudan for'}, {'start': '255.360', 'end': '259.199', 'text': 'instance where there are now millions of'}, {'start': '257.440', 'end': '260.959', 'text': 'people displaced as a consequence of the'}, {'start': '259.199', 'end': '262.960', 'text': 'violence there. There are 120 million'}, {'start': '260.959', 'end': '265.199', 'text': 'people displaced in the world today and'}, {'start': '262.960', 'end': '267.440', 'text': 'I do sometimes think we neglect to look'}, {'start': '265.199', 'end': '269.440', 'text': 'for root causes and what I would like to'}, {'start': '267.440', 'end': '271.280', 'text': 'see more of from the government is an'}, {'start': '269.440', 'end': '273.520', 'text': 'approach that says what can we do to'}, {'start': '271.280', 'end': '275.280', 'text': 'stop the flow of migrants? How do we get'}, {'start': '273.520', 'end': '276.639', 'text': 'to the root causes? Do the sorts of'}, {'start': '275.280', 'end': '279.040', 'text': 'other things that happened back in the'}, {'start': '276.639', 'end': '281.360', 'text': '1940s like the martial aid program where'}, {'start': '279.040', 'end': '282.960', 'text': 'you rebuild communities where you try'}, {'start': '281.360', 'end': '284.880', 'text': 'and stop the violence where you'}, {'start': '282.960', 'end': '286.720', 'text': "construct places in people's own"}, {'start': '284.880', 'end': '289.120', 'text': "homelands. Most people don't want to"}, {'start': '286.720', 'end': '290.960', 'text': 'leave their homelands. If you can combat'}, {'start': '289.120', 'end': '292.880', 'text': 'the corruption, if you can combat the'}, {'start': '290.960', 'end': '295.040', 'text': 'violence that we see disfiguring'}, {'start': '292.880', 'end': '297.040', 'text': 'countries like Sudan, that approach is'}, {'start': '295.040', 'end': '298.639', 'text': 'obviously a huge challenge given the'}, {'start': '297.040', 'end': '300.160', 'text': 'current international situation and'}, {'start': '298.639', 'end': '302.560', 'text': "obviously we've seen cuts to our"}, {'start': '300.160', 'end': '304.880', 'text': 'international aid program. What role do'}, {'start': '302.560', 'end': '307.039', 'text': 'you think the committee can play in'}, {'start': '304.880', 'end': '308.800', 'text': 'advancing the arguments about the'}, {'start': '307.039', 'end': '310.160', 'text': 'benefits of human rights? We hear a lot'}, {'start': '308.800', 'end': '312.160', 'text': 'of the criticisms, these chicken'}, {'start': '310.160', 'end': '314.880', 'text': 'McNugget stories, obviously the'}, {'start': '312.160', 'end': '317.199', 'text': 'opposition parties using human rights as'}, {'start': '314.880', 'end': '318.400', 'text': 'a stick to beat the government with.'}, {'start': '317.199', 'end': '320.160', 'text': "Well, I think you've put your finger on"}, {'start': '318.400', 'end': '322.960', 'text': "it about education. I think we've"}, {'start': '320.160', 'end': '325.360', 'text': 'neglected to explain to people from'}, {'start': '322.960', 'end': '327.199', 'text': 'where our human rights derive. After'}, {'start': '325.360', 'end': '328.960', 'text': "all, this isn't just about the ECR. This"}, {'start': '327.199', 'end': '330.880', 'text': 'is about Magna Carta. This is about hard'}, {'start': '328.960', 'end': '332.960', 'text': 'one rights and privileges, liberties and'}, {'start': '330.880', 'end': '335.280', 'text': 'freedoms that we enjoy in the United'}, {'start': '332.960', 'end': '337.680', 'text': "Kingdom and which didn't come around by"}, {'start': '335.280', 'end': '340.240', 'text': 'accident. They came about because of'}, {'start': '337.680', 'end': '341.600', 'text': 'extraordinary campaigns in this country.'}, {'start': '340.240', 'end': '343.120', 'text': 'At one level by people like the'}, {'start': '341.600', 'end': '344.320', 'text': 'suffragettes at another level by the'}, {'start': '343.120', 'end': '346.720', 'text': 'people who gave their lives in the'}, {'start': '344.320', 'end': '349.360', 'text': 'second world war fighting Nazism. So we'}, {'start': '346.720', 'end': '351.080', 'text': 'have to take these privileges seriously.'}, {'start': '349.360', 'end': '353.759', 'text': 'But we do have to balance rights with'}, {'start': '351.080', 'end': '355.600', 'text': 'responsibilities, duties, obligations.'}, {'start': '353.759', 'end': '356.960', 'text': 'So through citizenship education for'}, {'start': '355.600', 'end': '360.000', 'text': 'instance, I think we should be saying'}, {'start': '356.960', 'end': '362.639', 'text': 'far more and we should be combating the'}, {'start': '360.000', 'end': '364.639', 'text': 'negligent way in which individual cases'}, {'start': '362.639', 'end': '366.560', 'text': 'can sometimes be used to try and'}, {'start': '364.639', 'end': '368.560', 'text': 'undermine a genuine approach that'}, {'start': '366.560', 'end': '370.880', 'text': 'elevates not just the rights but the'}, {'start': '368.560', 'end': '372.400', 'text': 'dignity of every human being. Can we'}, {'start': '370.880', 'end': '373.840', 'text': 'talk about a few of the inquiries that'}, {'start': '372.400', 'end': '375.919', 'text': "you're running at the moment because"}, {'start': '373.840', 'end': '378.240', 'text': "you've got inquiries running on on both"}, {'start': '375.919', 'end': '380.560', 'text': 'legislation but also thematic policy'}, {'start': '378.240', 'end': '382.720', 'text': 'questions this week. One of the issues'}, {'start': '380.560', 'end': '385.680', 'text': 'is the Great British Energy Bill and'}, {'start': '382.720', 'end': '388.160', 'text': 'this vexed question of how you ensure'}, {'start': '385.680', 'end': '389.440', 'text': 'that any investment by Great British'}, {'start': '388.160', 'end': '391.199', 'text': 'Energy, this new body that the'}, {'start': '389.440', 'end': '393.680', 'text': 'government is setting up, is not going'}, {'start': '391.199', 'end': '396.319', 'text': 'to be finding its way into paying for'}, {'start': '393.680', 'end': '398.800', 'text': "things like solar panels where there's a"}, {'start': '396.319', 'end': '401.840', 'text': 'supply chain issue in relation to China'}, {'start': '398.800', 'end': '403.360', 'text': 'in particular around modern slavery. You'}, {'start': '401.840', 'end': '405.520', 'text': 'had an amendment on this when the bill'}, {'start': '403.360', 'end': '407.039', 'text': "was in the Lords. How's the committee"}, {'start': '405.520', 'end': '408.720', 'text': "approached this when it's it's a"}, {'start': '407.039', 'end': '411.080', 'text': "legislative question? Well, you're"}, {'start': '408.720', 'end': '412.960', 'text': 'right. And we do two things. We look at'}, {'start': '411.080', 'end': '414.400', 'text': "legislation. We're currently looking at"}, {'start': '412.960', 'end': '415.680', 'text': 'the mental health bill for instance'}, {'start': '414.400', 'end': '418.080', 'text': 'which is about to go to the house of'}, {'start': '415.680', 'end': '420.000', 'text': "commons. It's had its lord stages and we"}, {'start': '418.080', 'end': '422.479', 'text': 'organized for instance with 10'}, {'start': '420.000', 'end': '424.400', 'text': 'representative organizations a roundt'}, {'start': '422.479', 'end': '425.840', 'text': 'discussion here in parliament where'}, {'start': '424.400', 'end': '427.960', 'text': 'people came and told their personal'}, {'start': '425.840', 'end': '430.800', 'text': 'stories. I sat with a woman for instance'}, {'start': '427.960', 'end': '433.440', 'text': 'whose son had tried to take his own life'}, {'start': '430.800', 'end': '436.319', 'text': 'only weeks before on the bridge over the'}, {'start': '433.440', 'end': '439.039', 'text': 'river and was talked down. But I also'}, {'start': '436.319', 'end': '441.919', 'text': 'talked to a man who had spent 20 years'}, {'start': '439.039', 'end': '443.599', 'text': 'in detention having been sectioned and'}, {'start': '441.919', 'end': '445.280', 'text': 'detained for mental health reasons and'}, {'start': '443.599', 'end': '447.280', 'text': 'had been forgotten about within the'}, {'start': '445.280', 'end': '449.039', 'text': 'system. So yes, we can feed into'}, {'start': '447.280', 'end': '450.960', 'text': 'legislative things like that. But we'}, {'start': '449.039', 'end': '452.720', 'text': "also do thematic inquiries as you've"}, {'start': '450.960', 'end': '455.120', 'text': "said. We're doing three at the moment."}, {'start': '452.720', 'end': '456.720', 'text': 'One into ISIS and the British citizens'}, {'start': '455.120', 'end': '458.639', 'text': 'who were involved in the genocide'}, {'start': '456.720', 'end': '461.120', 'text': 'against the Yazidis and others in'}, {'start': '458.639', 'end': '463.919', 'text': 'northern Syria and northern Iraq. one'}, {'start': '461.120', 'end': '466.400', 'text': 'into transnational repression which can'}, {'start': '463.919', 'end': '468.000', 'text': 'affect British citizens in all sorts of'}, {'start': '466.400', 'end': '470.479', 'text': 'ways through the longarm of'}, {'start': '468.000', 'end': '472.560', 'text': 'dictatorships and authoritarian regimes'}, {'start': '470.479', 'end': '474.720', 'text': 'doing things in this country. And the'}, {'start': '472.560', 'end': '477.440', 'text': 'other inquiry is into modern day slavery'}, {'start': '474.720', 'end': '479.120', 'text': 'and the supply chain transparency'}, {'start': '477.440', 'end': '482.160', 'text': 'question. The very first of our'}, {'start': '479.120', 'end': '483.840', 'text': 'witnesses was Raheima Mahmud who is'}, {'start': '482.160', 'end': '485.840', 'text': 'representative of the World Weer'}, {'start': '483.840', 'end': '487.599', 'text': 'Congress. She talked to us about what'}, {'start': '485.840', 'end': '489.759', 'text': 'the House of Commons has declared to be'}, {'start': '487.599', 'end': '492.319', 'text': 'a genocide in Shing Jang. And the'}, {'start': '489.759', 'end': '494.560', 'text': 'question, Ben, is is it legitimate to do'}, {'start': '492.319', 'end': '496.960', 'text': 'business as usual with a regime that'}, {'start': '494.560', 'end': '498.240', 'text': 'commits genocide against its own people?'}, {'start': '496.960', 'end': '500.560', 'text': 'And that was the subject of the'}, {'start': '498.240', 'end': '503.360', 'text': 'amendment that I then moved to the'}, {'start': '500.560', 'end': '505.199', 'text': 'energy bill and I spoke to it at second'}, {'start': '503.360', 'end': '507.440', 'text': 'reading at committee stage at report'}, {'start': '505.199', 'end': '510.720', 'text': 'stage. There were 12 amendments I think'}, {'start': '507.440', 'end': '512.560', 'text': 'in all that people moved to that bill at'}, {'start': '510.720', 'end': '514.800', 'text': 'report stage. The only one that'}, {'start': '512.560', 'end': '517.279', 'text': 'succeeded was the all party amendment'}, {'start': '514.800', 'end': '519.279', 'text': 'that I tabled. It had a majority of 50'}, {'start': '517.279', 'end': '521.839', 'text': 'in the lords. We sent it to the Commons.'}, {'start': '519.279', 'end': '524.240', 'text': 'A significant number of Labor MPs in the'}, {'start': '521.839', 'end': '526.480', 'text': 'Commons abstained because they wanted to'}, {'start': '524.240', 'end': '528.160', 'text': 'show their displeasure at the government'}, {'start': '526.480', 'end': '530.080', 'text': "removing the Lord's amendment. So it"}, {'start': '528.160', 'end': '532.320', 'text': 'came back to the Lords and only'}, {'start': '530.080', 'end': '534.000', 'text': "yesterday I'm very glad to say an"}, {'start': '532.320', 'end': '535.600', 'text': 'agreement was reached with the'}, {'start': '534.000', 'end': '537.519', 'text': 'Department of Energy and with the'}, {'start': '535.600', 'end': '540.160', 'text': 'Minister of State, Lord Hunt of Kings'}, {'start': '537.519', 'end': '542.080', 'text': 'Heath, Philip Hunt, who engaged'}, {'start': '540.160', 'end': '543.519', 'text': 'intelligently but with deep conviction'}, {'start': '542.080', 'end': '545.519', 'text': 'and commitment as well. I have a very'}, {'start': '543.519', 'end': '548.080', 'text': "high regard for him and I'm glad to say"}, {'start': '545.519', 'end': '549.920', 'text': 'that that was agreed with unonymity'}, {'start': '548.080', 'end': '551.519', 'text': 'across all parts of the house only'}, {'start': '549.920', 'end': '554.560', 'text': 'yesterday and it does place a'}, {'start': '551.519', 'end': '556.080', 'text': "prohibition on any company and we're"}, {'start': '554.560', 'end': '557.440', 'text': 'talking vast sums of public money now'}, {'start': '556.080', 'end': '560.320', 'text': 'which are going into Great British'}, {'start': '557.440', 'end': '562.080', 'text': 'energy but it may not be used purchasing'}, {'start': '560.320', 'end': '564.640', 'text': 'goods which have been made where there'}, {'start': '562.080', 'end': '566.320', 'text': 'have been credible reports of use of'}, {'start': '564.640', 'end': '568.720', 'text': 'slave labor. Now the committee continues'}, {'start': '566.320', 'end': '571.920', 'text': "to investigate this. We've got one more"}, {'start': '568.720', 'end': '574.800', 'text': "oral session. We've had over 800 pages"}, {'start': '571.920', 'end': '576.720', 'text': 'of written evidence and we will be'}, {'start': '574.800', 'end': '578.800', 'text': 'looking at issues like the American'}, {'start': '576.720', 'end': '580.880', 'text': 'model of rebuttable presumptions where'}, {'start': '578.800', 'end': '583.200', 'text': "you have to show that slave labor isn't"}, {'start': '580.880', 'end': '586.640', 'text': "being used. We've had discussions with"}, {'start': '583.200', 'end': '589.839', 'text': 'Theresa May who introduced the 2015 act'}, {'start': '586.640', 'end': '591.600', 'text': 'and she agrees that section 54 which is'}, {'start': '589.839', 'end': '593.760', 'text': 'a sort of tick box where you say oh yes'}, {'start': '591.600', 'end': '596.160', 'text': "we don't approve of slave labor but go"}, {'start': '593.760', 'end': '599.120', 'text': 'on using goods made by slave labor'}, {'start': '596.160', 'end': '600.760', 'text': 'anyway that has to be reformed. and also'}, {'start': '599.120', 'end': '603.680', 'text': 'the use of the'}, {'start': '600.760', 'end': '606.000', 'text': '2002 proceeds of crime act where you'}, {'start': '603.680', 'end': '608.000', 'text': 'confiscate goods if you find that a'}, {'start': '606.000', 'end': '610.640', 'text': 'company is using slave labor and the'}, {'start': '608.000', 'end': '613.360', 'text': 'appeal court recently upheld a case'}, {'start': '610.640', 'end': '616.640', 'text': 'involving the world we congress in their'}, {'start': '613.360', 'end': '618.480', 'text': 'favor. So last week we had evidence from'}, {'start': '616.640', 'end': '621.200', 'text': 'uh border force and the national crime'}, {'start': '618.480', 'end': '623.279', 'text': 'agency both of whom confirmed that the'}, {'start': '621.200', 'end': '625.360', 'text': '2002 legislation could be used rather'}, {'start': '623.279', 'end': '627.200', 'text': 'more extensively than it has been. So in'}, {'start': '625.360', 'end': '629.440', 'text': 'addition to the amendment, there will be'}, {'start': '627.200', 'end': '631.120', 'text': 'a report, there will be conclusions,'}, {'start': '629.440', 'end': '633.120', 'text': 'there will be recommendations, and yes,'}, {'start': '631.120', 'end': '636.160', 'text': 'we are calling for an overhaul of the'}, {'start': '633.120', 'end': '638.000', 'text': '2015 act. China looms rather large in'}, {'start': '636.160', 'end': '639.839', 'text': "your committee's deliberations at the"}, {'start': '638.000', 'end': '642.760', 'text': "moment, doesn't it? Because the the"}, {'start': '639.839', 'end': '645.600', 'text': "inquiry you're doing on transnational"}, {'start': '642.760', 'end': '648.640', 'text': 'repression is very much focused on how'}, {'start': '645.600', 'end': '650.320', 'text': 'countries like China in particular are'}, {'start': '648.640', 'end': '652.079', 'text': 'doing rather more than just keeping tabs'}, {'start': '650.320', 'end': '654.480', 'text': 'on the activities of their nationals in'}, {'start': '652.079', 'end': '656.640', 'text': 'this country. that actively in some'}, {'start': '654.480', 'end': '658.480', 'text': 'cases threatening them. Well, two'}, {'start': '656.640', 'end': '660.240', 'text': 'members of the joint committee, myself'}, {'start': '658.480', 'end': '662.240', 'text': 'and my colleague Baroness Kennedy,'}, {'start': '660.240', 'end': '663.360', 'text': 'Helena Kennedy KC, we have the two'}, {'start': '662.240', 'end': '666.240', 'text': "members of the House of Lords who've"}, {'start': '663.360', 'end': '668.160', 'text': 'been sanctioned by China. Although'}, {'start': '666.240', 'end': '670.399', 'text': 'addicted to the list last week, I see'}, {'start': '668.160', 'end': '672.399', 'text': "Putin's Russia have sanctioned me along"}, {'start': '670.399', 'end': '674.240', 'text': 'with Iran and North Korea as well. So,'}, {'start': '672.399', 'end': '676.079', 'text': "I'm collecting them. They all have to"}, {'start': '674.240', 'end': '677.760', 'text': 'get in the queue. This is ridiculous. I'}, {'start': '676.079', 'end': '679.760', 'text': 'mean, this is an attempt to silence us'}, {'start': '677.760', 'end': '681.680', 'text': 'and stop us carrying out things like our'}, {'start': '679.760', 'end': '684.560', 'text': 'inquiry into transnational repression.'}, {'start': '681.680', 'end': '687.360', 'text': 'But anybody who sat and listened to the'}, {'start': '684.560', 'end': '690.000', 'text': 'extraordinarily brave just turned 20'}, {'start': '687.360', 'end': '692.160', 'text': 'yearear-old Khloe Chung who came and'}, {'start': '690.000', 'end': '694.000', 'text': 'told us about how a bounty has been'}, {'start': '692.160', 'end': '696.480', 'text': 'placed on her head. This is a young'}, {'start': '694.000', 'end': '698.720', 'text': 'woman living in this country who came'}, {'start': '696.480', 'end': '700.640', 'text': 'here with her family had to escape from'}, {'start': '698.720', 'end': '704.079', 'text': 'Hong Kong because of the destruction of'}, {'start': '700.640', 'end': '706.000', 'text': 'democracy there. Khloe has a bounty of 1'}, {'start': '704.079', 'end': '707.440', 'text': 'million Hong Kong dollars on her head'}, {'start': '706.000', 'end': '709.360', 'text': 'along with nine other people living in'}, {'start': '707.440', 'end': '710.720', 'text': 'the United Kingdom. one of whom Carman'}, {'start': '709.360', 'end': '712.240', 'text': 'Laauo was a member of the Hong Kong'}, {'start': '710.720', 'end': '714.240', 'text': "legislature. So, of course, we're going"}, {'start': '712.240', 'end': '717.120', 'text': "to speak out about that. But it's not"}, {'start': '714.240', 'end': '720.000', 'text': 'just China. We have before us an Iranian'}, {'start': '717.120', 'end': '722.480', 'text': 'who is a democracy activist who opposes'}, {'start': '720.000', 'end': '724.880', 'text': 'the theocratic regime in Iran and has'}, {'start': '722.480', 'end': '727.519', 'text': 'done all his life. He was left dying,'}, {'start': '724.880', 'end': '730.000', 'text': 'filled with bullets by the Iranians. the'}, {'start': '727.519', 'end': '732.800', 'text': 'journalist last year in London left'}, {'start': '730.000', 'end': '735.360', 'text': 'dying after he was attacked by a gang of'}, {'start': '732.800', 'end': '737.920', 'text': 'three agents of the Iranian regime with'}, {'start': '735.360', 'end': '740.720', 'text': 'knives, bleeding potentially to death.'}, {'start': '737.920', 'end': '744.160', 'text': 'He just about survived. We had evidence'}, {'start': '740.720', 'end': '745.760', 'text': 'from the BBC about the Persian service.'}, {'start': '744.160', 'end': '747.279', 'text': "We've had evidence from other"}, {'start': '745.760', 'end': '749.600', 'text': "journalists. We've had evidence about"}, {'start': '747.279', 'end': '752.959', 'text': 'other regimes as well, including'}, {'start': '749.600', 'end': '754.720', 'text': "Eritraa. We've had over 1,400 pages of"}, {'start': '752.959', 'end': '756.079', 'text': 'evidence on this inquiry. This is going'}, {'start': '754.720', 'end': '758.959', 'text': 'to be a mega report. This is a'}, {'start': '756.079', 'end': '761.040', 'text': "cuttingedge issue and I'm glad to say"}, {'start': '758.959', 'end': '763.600', 'text': 'that the chair of the liazison committee'}, {'start': '761.040', 'end': '766.480', 'text': 'in the commons the excellent meg hillier'}, {'start': '763.600', 'end': '768.320', 'text': 'who kindly raised this question with the'}, {'start': '766.480', 'end': '770.399', 'text': 'prime minister when he appeared before'}, {'start': '768.320', 'end': '772.480', 'text': 'the committee a couple of weeks ago and'}, {'start': '770.399', 'end': '774.560', 'text': 'secur has now written to our committee'}, {'start': '772.480', 'end': '776.639', 'text': 'as well saying that he very strongly'}, {'start': '774.560', 'end': '778.399', 'text': "agrees with the inquiry that we're doing"}, {'start': '776.639', 'end': '780.160', 'text': 'the importance of the issue and I know'}, {'start': '778.399', 'end': '782.800', 'text': 'that the home office are also been told'}, {'start': '780.160', 'end': '784.800', 'text': 'to look carefully at this so our work is'}, {'start': '782.800', 'end': '787.120', 'text': 'feeding into public policy issues but'}, {'start': '784.800', 'end': '788.880', 'text': "it's also giving a platform to people"}, {'start': '787.120', 'end': '790.880', 'text': 'like Khloe Chung so that their voices'}, {'start': '788.880', 'end': '792.720', 'text': 'can be heard. This was a case where you'}, {'start': '790.880', 'end': '794.480', 'text': "can't sit on the liazison committee as a"}, {'start': '792.720', 'end': '796.399', 'text': 'peer. If the chair of the human rights'}, {'start': '794.480', 'end': '798.000', 'text': 'committee had been an MP in the commons,'}, {'start': '796.399', 'end': '799.279', 'text': 'they would have been able to be there in'}, {'start': '798.000', 'end': '801.200', 'text': 'person to ask. But you have to kind of'}, {'start': '799.279', 'end': '802.800', 'text': 'get it these questions asked in in a'}, {'start': '801.200', 'end': '804.320', 'text': 'delegated sort of way. Is there going to'}, {'start': '802.800', 'end': '806.000', 'text': 'have to be a change in the law or is'}, {'start': '804.320', 'end': '807.680', 'text': 'this a matter of enforcement of existing'}, {'start': '806.000', 'end': '809.279', 'text': 'laws that there needs to be some sort of'}, {'start': '807.680', 'end': '810.959', 'text': 'clampdown on foreign governments who are'}, {'start': '809.279', 'end': '813.440', 'text': 'chasing their nationals in this country'}, {'start': '810.959', 'end': '815.440', 'text': 'in illegal ways? There does need to be a'}, {'start': '813.440', 'end': '817.320', 'text': 'change in the law and also we have to'}, {'start': '815.440', 'end': '819.279', 'text': 'think about issues like universal'}, {'start': '817.320', 'end': '821.120', 'text': 'jurisdiction which is a question that'}, {'start': '819.279', 'end': '823.600', 'text': 'will be addressed in a report that is'}, {'start': '821.120', 'end': '826.160', 'text': 'literally being circulated in draft as'}, {'start': '823.600', 'end': '828.480', 'text': 'we speak to members of our committee'}, {'start': '826.160', 'end': '831.120', 'text': 'where we do look at questions about what'}, {'start': '828.480', 'end': '832.639', 'text': 'you do about governments or regimes that'}, {'start': '831.120', 'end': '834.639', 'text': 'clearly have inspired acts against'}, {'start': '832.639', 'end': '837.279', 'text': 'people living in the United Kingdom but'}, {'start': '834.639', 'end': '840.160', 'text': 'also United Kingdom citizens who may'}, {'start': '837.279', 'end': '842.399', 'text': 'become agents of regimes or terrorist'}, {'start': '840.160', 'end': '843.839', 'text': "organizations like ISIS. is I don't"}, {'start': '842.399', 'end': '846.160', 'text': "think we've ever had anybody on the"}, {'start': '843.839', 'end': '847.920', 'text': "podcast, David, who's been sanctioned by"}, {'start': '846.160', 'end': '849.839', 'text': 'a foreign regime. Does it have any'}, {'start': '847.920', 'end': '851.120', 'text': 'practical effects on your day-to-day'}, {'start': '849.839', 'end': '853.360', 'text': "life at all? Other than you're not going"}, {'start': '851.120', 'end': '855.680', 'text': 'to travel to China and Iran and Russia,'}, {'start': '853.360', 'end': '856.959', 'text': 'but are there any practical effects?'}, {'start': '855.680', 'end': '858.880', 'text': 'Supposed to have a chilling effect.'}, {'start': '856.959', 'end': '861.920', 'text': "That's the idea. I presume that's why"}, {'start': '858.880', 'end': '863.519', 'text': 'they do it. But for some of us, it has a'}, {'start': '861.920', 'end': '865.600', 'text': 'exactly the opposite effect because it'}, {'start': '863.519', 'end': '868.480', 'text': 'makes us even more determined. But look,'}, {'start': '865.600', 'end': '870.240', 'text': "it's trivial by comparison with the"}, {'start': '868.480', 'end': '871.279', 'text': 'things that people experience in the'}, {'start': '870.240', 'end': '873.519', 'text': "countries that we've just been"}, {'start': '871.279', 'end': '875.680', 'text': 'describing. I followed events in China,'}, {'start': '873.519', 'end': '877.920', 'text': 'for instance, now over a very long time.'}, {'start': '875.680', 'end': '880.720', 'text': 'My friend Jimmy Lie is on trial there.'}, {'start': '877.920', 'end': '882.720', 'text': "He's in prison. I gave him and his wife"}, {'start': '880.720', 'end': '885.279', 'text': 'tea in the House of Lords several years'}, {'start': '882.720', 'end': '888.639', 'text': 'ago. That was even dragged out in the'}, {'start': '885.279', 'end': '891.199', 'text': 'trial of this media mogul, but someone'}, {'start': '888.639', 'end': '893.920', 'text': "who's passionate about free speech. How"}, {'start': '891.199', 'end': '895.720', 'text': 'can that possibly be an offense? And yet'}, {'start': '893.920', 'end': '898.639', 'text': 'this man along with'}, {'start': '895.720', 'end': '900.800', 'text': '2,000 political activists are in prison'}, {'start': '898.639', 'end': '902.959', 'text': 'in Hong Kong. So anything that they do'}, {'start': '900.800', 'end': '905.320', 'text': 'to us by comparison, what they do to'}, {'start': '902.959', 'end': '907.839', 'text': 'intimidate Taiwan on an almost daily'}, {'start': '905.320', 'end': '910.079', 'text': 'basis. The weaguers who have suffered'}, {'start': '907.839', 'end': '912.240', 'text': "from this genocide in Shing Jang, what's"}, {'start': '910.079', 'end': '915.120', 'text': 'happened in Tibet, you just look at the'}, {'start': '912.240', 'end': '916.639', 'text': 'list and by comparison telling some'}, {'start': '915.120', 'end': '919.120', 'text': 'parliamentarians they can no longer'}, {'start': '916.639', 'end': '921.199', 'text': 'travel to China or wherever it may be.'}, {'start': '919.120', 'end': '923.440', 'text': "I'm sorry about that. The reach also I"}, {'start': '921.199', 'end': '926.320', 'text': 'suppose extends to your family and that'}, {'start': '923.440', 'end': '927.600', 'text': 'can be difficult and we have examples of'}, {'start': '926.320', 'end': '930.000', 'text': 'some who have been sanctioned who have'}, {'start': '927.600', 'end': '931.680', 'text': 'been refused access to countries and in'}, {'start': '930.000', 'end': '933.279', 'text': 'one case a former member of the House of'}, {'start': '931.680', 'end': '936.160', 'text': 'Commons who was put on a plane and and'}, {'start': '933.279', 'end': '938.720', 'text': 'returned to the UK. So there are some'}, {'start': '936.160', 'end': '940.720', 'text': 'practical implications but when I look'}, {'start': '938.720', 'end': '941.920', 'text': 'here the personal stories of those who'}, {'start': '940.720', 'end': '943.760', 'text': 'have suffered at the hands of these'}, {'start': '941.920', 'end': '946.079', 'text': 'regimes I I just want to keep it in'}, {'start': '943.760', 'end': '947.839', 'text': 'perspective. Continuing our our very'}, {'start': '946.079', 'end': '949.360', 'text': 'rapid whistle stop tour of your'}, {'start': '947.839', 'end': '951.199', 'text': "committee's activities. You you"}, {'start': '949.360', 'end': '952.959', 'text': "mentioned earlier that you'd done a lot"}, {'start': '951.199', 'end': '955.040', 'text': "of work on the mental health bill that's"}, {'start': '952.959', 'end': '957.600', 'text': 'about to hit the House of Commons.'}, {'start': '955.040', 'end': '960.160', 'text': "You've scrutinized that in some detail"}, {'start': '957.600', 'end': '961.519', 'text': 'and when MPs come to look at the bill.'}, {'start': '960.160', 'end': '962.800', 'text': "What are your asks? You're going to be"}, {'start': '961.519', 'end': '964.880', 'text': 'publishing a report. What sort of things'}, {'start': '962.800', 'end': '966.560', 'text': 'do you want them to change? Well, I'}, {'start': '964.880', 'end': '967.759', 'text': "don't want to prejudge what's going to"}, {'start': '966.560', 'end': '969.600', 'text': 'be in that report. Obviously, the'}, {'start': '967.759', 'end': '970.720', 'text': "committee hasn't considered what exactly"}, {'start': '969.600', 'end': '972.880', 'text': 'it will say to members of the House of'}, {'start': '970.720', 'end': '974.560', 'text': 'Commons, but yes, we have taken a lot of'}, {'start': '972.880', 'end': '976.079', 'text': "evidence. I don't think I'm betraying"}, {'start': '974.560', 'end': '977.839', 'text': 'any great confidences in saying for'}, {'start': '976.079', 'end': '980.320', 'text': 'instance the treatment of people with'}, {'start': '977.839', 'end': '982.639', 'text': 'autism is one of the issues that we have'}, {'start': '980.320', 'end': '984.480', 'text': 'wrestled with and are concerned about.'}, {'start': '982.639', 'end': '986.079', 'text': 'But generally speaking, we think that'}, {'start': '984.480', 'end': '987.360', 'text': 'the government are moving in the right'}, {'start': '986.079', 'end': '989.440', 'text': "direction in what they're trying to"}, {'start': '987.360', 'end': '991.040', 'text': "achieve. So we're not just there to be"}, {'start': '989.440', 'end': '993.440', 'text': 'destructive. This is not about yaboo'}, {'start': '991.040', 'end': '995.040', 'text': 'politics. This is about looking for'}, {'start': '993.440', 'end': '996.800', 'text': 'things that might be scrutinized in a'}, {'start': '995.040', 'end': '998.480', 'text': 'way that leads to further improvement in'}, {'start': '996.800', 'end': '1000.480', 'text': 'legislation. So we take that duty'}, {'start': '998.480', 'end': '1001.680', 'text': 'seriously. But the six members of the'}, {'start': '1000.480', 'end': '1003.279', 'text': 'House of Commons who serve on the'}, {'start': '1001.680', 'end': '1005.199', 'text': 'committee will have their opportunities'}, {'start': '1003.279', 'end': '1006.920', 'text': 'now if they wish to raise some of the'}, {'start': '1005.199', 'end': '1008.880', 'text': "things that they've heard during our"}, {'start': '1006.920', 'end': '1011.040', 'text': 'deliberations. They can do that at'}, {'start': '1008.880', 'end': '1013.759', 'text': 'second reading and committee stage'}, {'start': '1011.040', 'end': '1015.600', 'text': "amendments. And that's where we've acted"}, {'start': '1013.759', 'end': '1017.519', 'text': 'in the past quite successfully in'}, {'start': '1015.600', 'end': '1018.880', 'text': 'getting change. And the energy bill is a'}, {'start': '1017.519', 'end': '1020.800', 'text': "good example of that because that didn't"}, {'start': '1018.880', 'end': '1022.480', 'text': 'come about just as a result of my'}, {'start': '1020.800', 'end': '1024.240', 'text': 'amendment. It came about partly as a'}, {'start': '1022.480', 'end': '1026.160', 'text': 'result of the evidence that we were'}, {'start': '1024.240', 'end': '1027.679', 'text': 'taking in the joint committee. It came'}, {'start': '1026.160', 'end': '1030.319', 'text': 'about because there were people in the'}, {'start': '1027.679', 'end': '1031.919', 'text': 'House of Commons, everyone from Sarah'}, {'start': '1030.319', 'end': '1033.679', 'text': "Champion, who's the chair of the"}, {'start': '1031.919', 'end': '1036.640', 'text': 'development committee, to my colleague'}, {'start': '1033.679', 'end': '1038.559', 'text': 'Alex Soil, who serves on the JCHR, who'}, {'start': '1036.640', 'end': '1040.240', 'text': 'championed the spirit of the amendment'}, {'start': '1038.559', 'end': '1042.079', 'text': 'that I was moving, and people like Siri'}, {'start': '1040.240', 'end': '1044.720', 'text': 'and Duncan Smith on the Conservative'}, {'start': '1042.079', 'end': '1047.679', 'text': 'benches. And here in in the Lords, we'}, {'start': '1044.720', 'end': '1049.120', 'text': 'had both opposition parties, Philip Dems'}, {'start': '1047.679', 'end': '1050.720', 'text': 'and the Conservatives from their front'}, {'start': '1049.120', 'end': '1052.240', 'text': 'benches in support of the amendment. The'}, {'start': '1050.720', 'end': '1054.000', 'text': "bishop's bench was in support. There"}, {'start': '1052.240', 'end': '1056.240', 'text': 'were colleagues of mine from the'}, {'start': '1054.000', 'end': '1058.160', 'text': 'crossbenches and my colleague Baroness'}, {'start': '1056.240', 'end': '1060.799', 'text': 'Kennedy had seconded the amendment from'}, {'start': '1058.160', 'end': '1062.799', 'text': 'the labor benches. So building up the'}, {'start': '1060.799', 'end': '1064.960', 'text': "sense that it's the issue that matters"}, {'start': '1062.799', 'end': '1066.720', 'text': 'rather than is it the opposition or the'}, {'start': '1064.960', 'end': '1068.400', 'text': 'government is someone trying to score a'}, {'start': '1066.720', 'end': '1069.520', 'text': 'political point or whatever. I mean'}, {'start': '1068.400', 'end': '1071.360', 'text': 'there are lots of other issues around'}, {'start': '1069.520', 'end': '1075.039', 'text': 'the energy bill that one could discuss'}, {'start': '1071.360', 'end': '1077.679', 'text': 'but in the end can it be right to trade'}, {'start': '1075.039', 'end': '1079.679', 'text': 'on the broken backs of slave labor and'}, {'start': '1077.679', 'end': '1081.360', 'text': "it's not just about China because in the"}, {'start': '1079.679', 'end': '1083.919', 'text': 'supply chain you look at countries like'}, {'start': '1081.360', 'end': '1085.760', 'text': 'the Democratic Republic of the Congo and'}, {'start': '1083.919', 'end': '1087.760', 'text': 'children being sent down the mines where'}, {'start': '1085.760', 'end': '1090.000', 'text': 'we have obligations under the convention'}, {'start': '1087.760', 'end': '1091.919', 'text': 'on the rights of a child that too is a'}, {'start': '1090.000', 'end': '1095.520', 'text': 'sort of issue that the committee looks'}, {'start': '1091.919', 'end': '1097.760', 'text': 'at I recently met for instance with the'}, {'start': '1095.520', 'end': '1100.880', 'text': "children's commissioner Dame Rachel Duza"}, {'start': '1097.760', 'end': '1103.600', 'text': 'to discuss what more we can do to ensure'}, {'start': '1100.880', 'end': '1106.160', 'text': 'that UK resources are not being used in'}, {'start': '1103.600', 'end': '1107.919', 'text': 'order to lead to the exploitation of'}, {'start': '1106.160', 'end': '1109.039', 'text': 'children in a place like the DRC. So'}, {'start': '1107.919', 'end': '1111.520', 'text': "that's something else that can be"}, {'start': '1109.039', 'end': '1113.600', 'text': 'reflected in our report. Building up'}, {'start': '1111.520', 'end': '1115.440', 'text': 'relationships with agencies and'}, {'start': '1113.600', 'end': '1117.840', 'text': "charities and NOS's. This week I went"}, {'start': '1115.440', 'end': '1119.840', 'text': 'down to the East End of London to meet'}, {'start': '1117.840', 'end': '1123.200', 'text': 'with Crisis. And right back in the day'}, {'start': '1119.840', 'end': '1125.120', 'text': 'when I was a very raw young MP, I was a'}, {'start': '1123.200', 'end': '1127.360', 'text': 'a trustee of Crisis. It was then called'}, {'start': '1125.120', 'end': '1129.120', 'text': 'Crisis at Christmas. Why do they want to'}, {'start': '1127.360', 'end': '1131.520', 'text': 'talk to me? Because there will be a'}, {'start': '1129.120', 'end': '1133.840', 'text': 'police and crime bill coming up and the'}, {'start': '1131.520', 'end': '1135.760', 'text': 'vagrancy act which is 19th century piece'}, {'start': '1133.840', 'end': '1137.679', 'text': 'of legislation which criminalizes'}, {'start': '1135.760', 'end': '1139.520', 'text': 'homelessness is something that should be'}, {'start': '1137.679', 'end': '1140.799', 'text': 'challenged and changed. So I wanted to'}, {'start': '1139.520', 'end': '1142.799', 'text': 'hear what they had to say about that.'}, {'start': '1140.799', 'end': '1144.960', 'text': "Later today I'm meeting with refugee"}, {'start': '1142.799', 'end': '1147.360', 'text': 'women to discuss with them what more we'}, {'start': '1144.960', 'end': '1149.120', 'text': 'can do at a practical level to support'}, {'start': '1147.360', 'end': '1151.039', 'text': 'those who are legitimately in this'}, {'start': '1149.120', 'end': '1153.679', 'text': 'country. You know, setting aside the'}, {'start': '1151.039', 'end': '1155.600', 'text': 'chicken nugget type stories, just bear'}, {'start': '1153.679', 'end': '1157.919', 'text': "in mind the position of people who've"}, {'start': '1155.600', 'end': '1159.840', 'text': 'had to flee often with nothing at all,'}, {'start': '1157.919', 'end': '1162.240', 'text': 'desperate for their lives and the way we'}, {'start': '1159.840', 'end': '1163.840', 'text': 'respond to them. Everything from the'}, {'start': '1162.240', 'end': '1166.080', 'text': 'teaching of English so that people can'}, {'start': '1163.840', 'end': '1168.000', 'text': 'properly integrate to the right to work'}, {'start': '1166.080', 'end': '1169.919', 'text': 'as well while an asylum claim is being'}, {'start': '1168.000', 'end': '1172.480', 'text': 'considered. These are genuine issues'}, {'start': '1169.919', 'end': '1174.799', 'text': 'that should politics to one side be'}, {'start': '1172.480', 'end': '1177.919', 'text': 'properly discussed and to see if you can'}, {'start': '1174.799', 'end': '1180.559', 'text': 'build up uh political consensus. So I'}, {'start': '1177.919', 'end': '1182.640', 'text': 'think my job as chair of the JCHR is not'}, {'start': '1180.559', 'end': '1184.960', 'text': 'trying to impose all my views. I think'}, {'start': '1182.640', 'end': '1186.400', 'text': 'my principal role is to listen to what'}, {'start': '1184.960', 'end': '1188.720', 'text': 'colleagues are saying and to see where'}, {'start': '1186.400', 'end': '1190.080', 'text': 'we can build consensus from all sides of'}, {'start': '1188.720', 'end': '1191.679', 'text': 'the committee. I want reports that the'}, {'start': '1190.080', 'end': '1193.600', 'text': 'committee can agree about rather than be'}, {'start': '1191.679', 'end': '1195.520', 'text': 'divided over. When I was a young MP,'}, {'start': '1193.600', 'end': '1197.919', 'text': "someone gave me a copy of EM Fers's"}, {'start': '1195.520', 'end': '1199.120', 'text': 'book, Two Cheers for Democracy. Fer'}, {'start': '1197.919', 'end': '1200.799', 'text': 'said, of course, that only loved the'}, {'start': '1199.120', 'end': '1203.160', 'text': 'beloved republic deserve three cheers.'}, {'start': '1200.799', 'end': '1206.160', 'text': 'But he said, "Sometimes the'}, {'start': '1203.160', 'end': '1208.240', 'text': 'idiosyncratic, bloody-minded MP who gets'}, {'start': '1206.160', 'end': '1210.400', 'text': 'some minor injustice put right is the'}, {'start': '1208.240', 'end': '1211.840', 'text': 'justification for our system." And I\'ve'}, {'start': '1210.400', 'end': '1213.360', 'text': 'never forgotten that good piece of'}, {'start': '1211.840', 'end': '1215.120', 'text': 'advice.'}, {'start': '1213.360', 'end': '1216.640', 'text': 'Well, regular listeners to this podcast'}, {'start': '1215.120', 'end': '1219.039', 'text': 'will know that one of the few things'}, {'start': '1216.640', 'end': '1221.520', 'text': 'that exceeds my interest and and passion'}, {'start': '1219.039', 'end': '1223.039', 'text': 'for parliament is football. So, one of'}, {'start': '1221.520', 'end': '1225.120', 'text': 'the inquiries that the committee is'}, {'start': '1223.039', 'end': '1227.840', 'text': "doing that's taken my eye is the"}, {'start': '1225.120', 'end': '1229.360', 'text': 'Hillsborough question. So for our'}, {'start': '1227.840', 'end': '1233.280', 'text': 'international listeners, Hillsborough is'}, {'start': '1229.360', 'end': '1236.480', 'text': 'the the football tragedy in 1989 where'}, {'start': '1233.280', 'end': '1238.799', 'text': '97 football fans from Liverpool died as'}, {'start': '1236.480', 'end': '1241.039', 'text': 'a result of uh essentially a crushing'}, {'start': '1238.799', 'end': '1244.000', 'text': 'incident uh at the stadium that they'}, {'start': '1241.039', 'end': '1246.000', 'text': 'were playing an FA Cup match at. It was'}, {'start': '1244.000', 'end': '1248.240', 'text': 'a terrible tragedy, but it was then'}, {'start': '1246.000', 'end': '1249.840', 'text': 'compounded by a cover up by the'}, {'start': '1248.240', 'end': '1253.360', 'text': 'authorities essentially. And it has'}, {'start': '1249.840', 'end': '1256.080', 'text': 'taken years for politicians and lawyers'}, {'start': '1253.360', 'end': '1258.320', 'text': 'and so on to uncover the truth. The'}, {'start': '1256.080', 'end': '1260.000', 'text': 'government has committed to introduce'}, {'start': '1258.320', 'end': '1261.679', 'text': 'what is described as the Hillsborough'}, {'start': '1260.000', 'end': '1264.720', 'text': 'law which is essentially to impose a'}, {'start': '1261.679', 'end': '1266.720', 'text': 'duty of cander on public officials when'}, {'start': '1264.720', 'end': '1268.559', 'text': 'tragedies like this happen and also to'}, {'start': '1266.720', 'end': '1270.799', 'text': 'provide additional legal support and so'}, {'start': '1268.559', 'end': '1272.559', 'text': 'on for those who are affected. The'}, {'start': '1270.799', 'end': '1274.080', 'text': 'government promised I think at Labour'}, {'start': '1272.559', 'end': '1276.080', 'text': 'Party conference last year the prime'}, {'start': '1274.080', 'end': '1277.840', 'text': 'minister promised that this law would be'}, {'start': '1276.080', 'end': '1280.480', 'text': 'introduced to parliament by the time of'}, {'start': '1277.840', 'end': '1282.640', 'text': 'the anniversary which was last month. It'}, {'start': '1280.480', 'end': '1284.159', 'text': "hasn't yet appeared. Your committee has"}, {'start': '1282.640', 'end': '1286.000', 'text': 'been working on this as well and'}, {'start': '1284.159', 'end': '1287.679', 'text': 'reported on it. Do you think the'}, {'start': '1286.000', 'end': '1289.280', 'text': "government's foot dragging or do you"}, {'start': '1287.679', 'end': '1291.200', 'text': 'think the arguments about needing a bit'}, {'start': '1289.280', 'end': '1293.600', 'text': 'more time to finish the preparation is'}, {'start': '1291.200', 'end': '1295.440', 'text': 'legitimate? In 1989, of course, I was a'}, {'start': '1293.600', 'end': '1297.840', 'text': 'Liverpool member of parliament. And I'}, {'start': '1295.440', 'end': '1300.159', 'text': 'think one of the saddest duties of my'}, {'start': '1297.840', 'end': '1302.000', 'text': 'whole parliamentary life was visiting'}, {'start': '1300.159', 'end': '1304.159', 'text': "constituents who'd had loved ones who"}, {'start': '1302.000', 'end': '1306.760', 'text': 'were either there and been traumatized'}, {'start': '1304.159', 'end': '1310.960', 'text': "or some who'd lost loved ones who' died,"}, {'start': '1306.760', 'end': '1313.360', 'text': 'including the parents of a young boy.'}, {'start': '1310.960', 'end': '1315.440', 'text': 'And another constituent of mine was the'}, {'start': '1313.360', 'end': '1318.080', 'text': 'very last person to die some years'}, {'start': '1315.440', 'end': '1321.360', 'text': 'later. A man called Andrew Divine who'}, {'start': '1318.080', 'end': '1323.039', 'text': 'went into persistive vegetative state as'}, {'start': '1321.360', 'end': '1325.679', 'text': 'a result of being crushed at that'}, {'start': '1323.039', 'end': '1327.919', 'text': 'terrible match and he partially'}, {'start': '1325.679', 'end': '1330.080', 'text': 'recovered later being able to eat solid'}, {'start': '1327.919', 'end': '1333.200', 'text': 'foods and so on. But ultimately Andrew'}, {'start': '1330.080', 'end': '1335.440', 'text': 'also became a 97th person to die at'}, {'start': '1333.200', 'end': '1337.360', 'text': 'Hillsborough. So this had been part of'}, {'start': '1335.440', 'end': '1339.840', 'text': "my life throughout. I'd actually written"}, {'start': '1337.360', 'end': '1342.080', 'text': 'to the then sports minister before the'}, {'start': '1339.840', 'end': '1344.000', 'text': 'football match questioning whether or'}, {'start': '1342.080', 'end': '1346.159', 'text': 'not Hillsborough was a suitable ground'}, {'start': '1344.000', 'end': '1348.159', 'text': "for that game to be played at. It's a"}, {'start': '1346.159', 'end': '1350.240', 'text': "matter of record. It's in Hansard table"}, {'start': '1348.159', 'end': '1351.360', 'text': 'of question wanting to get it on the'}, {'start': '1350.240', 'end': '1353.280', 'text': 'record so that no one could say'}, {'start': '1351.360', 'end': '1355.440', 'text': 'afterwards that nobody had raised this'}, {'start': '1353.280', 'end': '1358.720', 'text': 'been raised with me by constituents who'}, {'start': '1355.440', 'end': '1360.960', 'text': 'knew the ground. I also then challenged'}, {'start': '1358.720', 'end': '1363.440', 'text': 'the outrageous way in which Liverpool'}, {'start': '1360.960', 'end': '1366.000', 'text': 'fans were caricatured as though this was'}, {'start': '1363.440', 'end': '1367.600', 'text': 'all their fault and we know the'}, {'start': '1366.000', 'end': '1370.000', 'text': 'notorious stories that appeared not'}, {'start': '1367.600', 'end': '1372.559', 'text': 'least in the Sun newspaper at the time'}, {'start': '1370.000', 'end': '1375.760', 'text': 'and the police took part in a cover up'}, {'start': '1372.559', 'end': '1378.159', 'text': 'as well that I had no doubt and I raised'}, {'start': '1375.760', 'end': '1380.080', 'text': 'it again and again. I supported the'}, {'start': '1378.159', 'end': '1383.200', 'text': 'independent inquiry that was established'}, {'start': '1380.080', 'end': '1385.760', 'text': 'by my friend Bishop James Jones who'}, {'start': '1383.200', 'end': '1387.200', 'text': 'chaired that brilliantly and I was very'}, {'start': '1385.760', 'end': '1388.960', 'text': 'pleased when people like Andy Bernham'}, {'start': '1387.200', 'end': '1391.600', 'text': 'came and started speaking out and saying'}, {'start': '1388.960', 'end': '1393.600', 'text': "that we've got to do not just something"}, {'start': '1391.600', 'end': '1395.120', 'text': "about the injustice that's occurred to"}, {'start': '1393.600', 'end': '1397.919', 'text': 'those who were at Hillsborough but more'}, {'start': '1395.120', 'end': '1400.400', 'text': 'generally around what we do in the'}, {'start': '1397.919', 'end': '1402.320', 'text': 'aftermath of such terrible catastrophes'}, {'start': '1400.400', 'end': '1404.799', 'text': 'and as a consequence of a conversation I'}, {'start': '1402.320', 'end': '1406.960', 'text': 'had with he was then a new Liverpool'}, {'start': '1404.799', 'end': '1409.760', 'text': 'Labour MP Ian Burns the member for'}, {'start': '1406.960', 'end': '1411.280', 'text': 'Liverpool West Derby. I had just gone on'}, {'start': '1409.760', 'end': '1412.880', 'text': 'to the joint committee of human rights'}, {'start': '1411.280', 'end': '1415.679', 'text': 'and I suggested he wrote to us and asked'}, {'start': '1412.880', 'end': '1417.280', 'text': 'if we would carry out an inquiry into'}, {'start': '1415.679', 'end': '1419.360', 'text': 'the delays in introducing something like'}, {'start': '1417.280', 'end': '1420.799', 'text': 'the Hillsborough law and I was delighted'}, {'start': '1419.360', 'end': '1423.440', 'text': 'when the committee agreed to do that. We'}, {'start': '1420.799', 'end': '1425.280', 'text': 'held an inquiry. We submitted uh'}, {'start': '1423.440', 'end': '1427.360', 'text': 'recommendations that we should enact the'}, {'start': '1425.280', 'end': '1429.919', 'text': 'Hillsborough law. Three parts of it,'}, {'start': '1427.360', 'end': '1431.600', 'text': "you're right. One is the duty of cander."}, {'start': '1429.919', 'end': '1434.320', 'text': 'One is also about the creation of an'}, {'start': '1431.600', 'end': '1437.120', 'text': 'independent advocate who we said should'}, {'start': '1434.320', 'end': '1439.600', 'text': 'be appointed within literally a couple'}, {'start': '1437.120', 'end': '1441.600', 'text': 'of days of any tragedy occurring, able'}, {'start': '1439.600', 'end': '1443.520', 'text': 'to collect evidence, able to be there,'}, {'start': '1441.600', 'end': '1445.840', 'text': 'able to ask all the right questions and'}, {'start': '1443.520', 'end': '1447.840', 'text': "to make sure that disinformation doesn't"}, {'start': '1445.840', 'end': '1450.480', 'text': 'be the order of the day. And the third'}, {'start': '1447.840', 'end': '1452.799', 'text': 'is equality of arms. So that victims'}, {'start': '1450.480', 'end': '1455.360', 'text': 'should have the same kind of legal'}, {'start': '1452.799', 'end': '1457.520', 'text': 'representation as a police force or a'}, {'start': '1455.360', 'end': '1459.440', 'text': "great national institution that's got"}, {'start': '1457.520', 'end': '1462.320', 'text': 'vast amounts of money at its disposal'}, {'start': '1459.440', 'end': '1464.320', 'text': 'and celebrated lawyers. So the three'}, {'start': '1462.320', 'end': '1465.840', 'text': 'elements of the Hillsborough bill I'}, {'start': '1464.320', 'end': '1467.679', 'text': 'strongly support. I was delighted when I'}, {'start': '1465.840', 'end': '1469.919', 'text': 'saw the Labour Party put it into their'}, {'start': '1467.679', 'end': '1471.360', 'text': 'election manifesto. I was surprised that'}, {'start': '1469.919', 'end': '1474.000', 'text': 'they said that they would introduce it'}, {'start': '1471.360', 'end': '1476.320', 'text': 'by a a particular date, the anniversary'}, {'start': '1474.000', 'end': '1478.080', 'text': 'date that has just fallen. And I asked'}, {'start': '1476.320', 'end': '1480.400', 'text': 'the attorney general about this and'}, {'start': '1478.080', 'end': '1482.880', 'text': 'yesterday I asked the law chancellor'}, {'start': '1480.400', 'end': '1486.240', 'text': 'about it as well whether or not they'}, {'start': '1482.880', 'end': '1488.080', 'text': 'will now at pace ensure that the bill'}, {'start': '1486.240', 'end': '1490.320', 'text': 'that they promised would reach the'}, {'start': '1488.080', 'end': '1492.159', 'text': 'statute books will be brought forward. I'}, {'start': '1490.320', 'end': '1495.440', 'text': "don't think they had fought through"}, {'start': '1492.159', 'end': '1497.360', 'text': 'sufficiently well what the cost will be'}, {'start': '1495.440', 'end': '1499.120', 'text': "with the legal aid. It's I think it's"}, {'start': '1497.360', 'end': '1501.279', 'text': 'that element of the bill that has now'}, {'start': '1499.120', 'end': '1502.960', 'text': 'caused a problem for government'}, {'start': '1501.279', 'end': '1504.559', 'text': 'officials. But but they should have'}, {'start': '1502.960', 'end': '1506.400', 'text': "thought about that. I mean there's some"}, {'start': '1504.559', 'end': '1508.240', 'text': 'pretty senior lawyers at the top of this'}, {'start': '1506.400', 'end': '1510.080', 'text': 'particular government and they surely'}, {'start': '1508.240', 'end': '1511.520', 'text': "would have realized this. You mustn't"}, {'start': '1510.080', 'end': '1513.679', 'text': "make promises you can't keep in"}, {'start': '1511.520', 'end': '1515.200', 'text': "politics. So I So you don't entirely buy"}, {'start': '1513.679', 'end': '1516.720', 'text': 'into this argument that for example'}, {'start': '1515.200', 'end': '1517.840', 'text': 'Shabban Mammud was making that is'}, {'start': '1516.720', 'end': '1519.520', 'text': 'actually all a matter of getting the'}, {'start': '1517.840', 'end': '1521.039', 'text': 'definitions very precise and the exact'}, {'start': '1519.520', 'end': '1522.640', 'text': 'threshold of where a failure to be'}, {'start': '1521.039', 'end': '1524.159', 'text': 'completely candid becomes a criminal'}, {'start': '1522.640', 'end': '1525.919', 'text': 'offense for thousands of officials'}, {'start': '1524.159', 'end': '1527.360', 'text': 'across the land. I think there is an'}, {'start': '1525.919', 'end': '1529.279', 'text': 'element in that but they should have'}, {'start': '1527.360', 'end': '1530.880', 'text': 'thought about that seriously. I mean you'}, {'start': '1529.279', 'end': '1532.400', 'text': 'have to decide are we going to go in'}, {'start': '1530.880', 'end': '1534.080', 'text': 'that direction or not and they said yes'}, {'start': '1532.400', 'end': '1535.919', 'text': 'we are and I agree with them. I think'}, {'start': '1534.080', 'end': '1538.080', 'text': 'you have to take that head on but you do'}, {'start': '1535.919', 'end': '1540.480', 'text': 'have to listen to people for instance'}, {'start': '1538.080', 'end': '1542.080', 'text': 'like Baroness Manning and Buller who'}, {'start': '1540.480', 'end': '1544.240', 'text': 'used to run our intelligence agencies'}, {'start': '1542.080', 'end': '1545.840', 'text': 'and she said on the record recently'}, {'start': '1544.240', 'end': '1547.840', 'text': 'there will be implications here for'}, {'start': '1545.840', 'end': '1550.279', 'text': 'people within our security services.'}, {'start': '1547.840', 'end': '1552.559', 'text': 'Fair point. So I think there have to be'}, {'start': '1550.279', 'end': '1554.240', 'text': 'some exemptions. There have to be some'}, {'start': '1552.559', 'end': '1555.440', 'text': 'sensitivities around questions like that'}, {'start': '1554.240', 'end': '1557.360', 'text': 'but that should all be in the'}, {'start': '1555.440', 'end': '1558.960', 'text': 'legislation and that still needs to be'}, {'start': '1557.360', 'end': '1560.640', 'text': 'not just properly thought through but'}, {'start': '1558.960', 'end': '1563.360', 'text': 'brought forward so that we can then'}, {'start': '1560.640', 'end': '1564.640', 'text': "scrutinize a bill and that's what I hope"}, {'start': '1563.360', 'end': '1566.159', 'text': 'the government as a result of the'}, {'start': '1564.640', 'end': '1567.600', 'text': 'pressure that we continue to exert and'}, {'start': '1566.159', 'end': '1569.520', 'text': "it's not just me I mean I've been"}, {'start': '1567.600', 'end': '1571.919', 'text': 'raising it but my colleague Shami'}, {'start': '1569.520', 'end': '1573.360', 'text': 'Shakrabati bar Shakrabati had an oral'}, {'start': '1571.919', 'end': '1575.039', 'text': 'question about this last week which I'}, {'start': '1573.360', 'end': '1577.760', 'text': 'chipped in on so did people from other'}, {'start': '1575.039', 'end': '1580.000', 'text': 'sides of of the chamber and the home'}, {'start': '1577.760', 'end': '1582.240', 'text': "office minister who responded who'"}, {'start': '1580.000', 'end': '1584.880', 'text': 'himself had someone from his family'}, {'start': '1582.240', 'end': '1586.960', 'text': "who'd been involved at Hillsborough or a"}, {'start': '1584.880', 'end': '1588.799', 'text': "friend, I'm not quite sure which, but he"}, {'start': '1586.960', 'end': '1590.400', 'text': 'had a personal involvement and he said'}, {'start': '1588.799', 'end': '1591.760', 'text': 'to me subsequently as well, I get it.'}, {'start': '1590.400', 'end': '1594.400', 'text': "We're going to do something about it."}, {'start': '1591.760', 'end': '1595.840', 'text': "So, I don't think it's bad faith, but I"}, {'start': '1594.400', 'end': '1596.880', 'text': 'think maybe they should have been a'}, {'start': '1595.840', 'end': '1598.559', 'text': 'little bit more careful about the'}, {'start': '1596.880', 'end': '1600.159', 'text': 'promise they made that there would be'}, {'start': '1598.559', 'end': '1603.039', 'text': 'something on the statute books by a'}, {'start': '1600.159', 'end': '1604.640', 'text': "specific date in April of 2025. I don't"}, {'start': '1603.039', 'end': '1605.840', 'text': "think that was deliverable. Wouldn't be"}, {'start': '1604.640', 'end': '1609.679', 'text': "the first time the government's done"}, {'start': '1605.840', 'end': '1612.000', 'text': 'that, sadly. No. Just a final thought'}, {'start': '1609.679', 'end': '1615.440', 'text': "then. You're in a very unusual position"}, {'start': '1612.000', 'end': '1617.440', 'text': 'as a non-party peer chairing a select'}, {'start': '1615.440', 'end': '1619.520', 'text': "committee of parliament. It's very"}, {'start': '1617.440', 'end': '1622.159', 'text': 'unusual for someone even from the'}, {'start': '1619.520', 'end': '1624.480', 'text': 'smaller parties to be in the chair of a'}, {'start': '1622.159', 'end': '1626.480', 'text': "select committee. It's extraordinary for"}, {'start': '1624.480', 'end': '1628.000', 'text': "someone who's basically an independent"}, {'start': '1626.480', 'end': '1630.240', 'text': 'to be chairing a cross parliamentary'}, {'start': '1628.000', 'end': '1632.159', 'text': 'committee. So how did this happen? Well,'}, {'start': '1630.240', 'end': '1634.880', 'text': 'I I am an independent crossbencher. I'}, {'start': '1632.159', 'end': '1636.960', 'text': 'left party politics back in 1997. But I'}, {'start': '1634.880', 'end': '1638.559', 'text': 'mean people know that I was nearly 20'}, {'start': '1636.960', 'end': '1640.000', 'text': 'years in the House of Commons. Before'}, {'start': '1638.559', 'end': '1641.760', 'text': 'that, I was in local government of'}, {'start': '1640.000', 'end': '1644.320', 'text': 'course and had been deputy leader of'}, {'start': '1641.760', 'end': '1646.559', 'text': 'Liverpool City Council and back in the'}, {'start': '1644.320', 'end': '1648.480', 'text': 'day was a chief whiff of political party'}, {'start': '1646.559', 'end': '1651.120', 'text': 'that helped to manage the Liberal SDP'}, {'start': '1648.480', 'end': '1653.600', 'text': 'alliance in in that uh period. So I'}, {'start': '1651.120', 'end': '1655.440', 'text': 'think they know I also get it in terms'}, {'start': '1653.600', 'end': '1656.559', 'text': 'of the pressures that are on members of'}, {'start': '1655.440', 'end': '1658.080', 'text': 'the House of Commons, what'}, {'start': '1656.559', 'end': '1659.919', 'text': 'considerations they have to take into'}, {'start': '1658.080', 'end': '1661.919', 'text': 'account how real politics works, if you'}, {'start': '1659.919', 'end': '1664.400', 'text': 'will. But maybe there is a value in'}, {'start': '1661.919', 'end': '1666.240', 'text': "being an independent that you're not"}, {'start': '1664.400', 'end': '1668.080', 'text': 'aligned with particular party interests.'}, {'start': '1666.240', 'end': '1669.440', 'text': "I don't feel the need to get up and"}, {'start': '1668.080', 'end': '1671.200', 'text': 'lambast the government simply because'}, {'start': '1669.440', 'end': '1672.320', 'text': "they're the government or sign up for"}, {'start': '1671.200', 'end': '1674.399', 'text': "the opposition merely because they're"}, {'start': '1672.320', 'end': '1676.240', 'text': 'the opposition. I was surprised that I'}, {'start': '1674.399', 'end': '1677.600', 'text': 'was elected as chair of the committee. I'}, {'start': '1676.240', 'end': '1681.200', 'text': "didn't go to the committee meeting that"}, {'start': '1677.600', 'end': '1683.440', 'text': 'day anticipating that and and I walked'}, {'start': '1681.200', 'end': '1685.200', 'text': 'out and and thought to myself, I must'}, {'start': '1683.440', 'end': '1687.440', 'text': 'perhaps need my head examined because'}, {'start': '1685.200', 'end': '1690.720', 'text': "it's a huge amount of work. But I felt"}, {'start': '1687.440', 'end': '1692.720', 'text': 'very honored that people from all the'}, {'start': '1690.720', 'end': '1694.480', 'text': 'three political parties who big parties'}, {'start': '1692.720', 'end': '1697.120', 'text': 'that are represented on the joint'}, {'start': '1694.480', 'end': '1699.520', 'text': 'committee had voted for me and have tr'}, {'start': '1697.120', 'end': '1701.120', 'text': 'entrusted this work in my hands. It will'}, {'start': '1699.520', 'end': '1702.640', 'text': 'be for a three-year term. Members of'}, {'start': '1701.120', 'end': '1704.000', 'text': "House of Lords don't serve on select"}, {'start': '1702.640', 'end': '1706.159', 'text': 'committees, any select committee for'}, {'start': '1704.000', 'end': '1708.240', 'text': 'longer than three years. So they at'}, {'start': '1706.159', 'end': '1709.760', 'text': "least know it's time expired as well."}, {'start': '1708.240', 'end': '1712.399', 'text': "And in the meantime, you know, I'm just"}, {'start': '1709.760', 'end': '1715.360', 'text': "blessed that we've got an amazing team."}, {'start': '1712.399', 'end': '1717.120', 'text': 'The staff are so committed to the work'}, {'start': '1715.360', 'end': '1718.799', 'text': 'the committee is doing. I I think'}, {'start': '1717.120', 'end': '1720.720', 'text': "sometimes they're overlooked in the"}, {'start': '1718.799', 'end': '1722.480', 'text': 'discussions one has about select'}, {'start': '1720.720', 'end': '1724.720', 'text': 'committees and the work they do. But our'}, {'start': '1722.480', 'end': '1727.279', 'text': 'clarks, the people who head up the'}, {'start': '1724.720', 'end': '1730.000', 'text': 'individual inquiries, our legal'}, {'start': '1727.279', 'end': '1732.880', 'text': "officers, the comm's team, I mean all of"}, {'start': '1730.000', 'end': '1735.440', 'text': 'them play a wonderful part and and'}, {'start': '1732.880', 'end': '1736.880', 'text': 'actually all 12 members, but we come'}, {'start': '1735.440', 'end': '1738.799', 'text': 'from different backgrounds, we have'}, {'start': '1736.880', 'end': '1741.039', 'text': 'different views and traditions, we all'}, {'start': '1738.799', 'end': '1742.640', 'text': 'have the same common purpose in mind,'}, {'start': '1741.039', 'end': '1744.799', 'text': 'which is the upholding of the human'}, {'start': '1742.640', 'end': '1746.320', 'text': "rights of British people. I think it's a"}, {'start': '1744.799', 'end': '1747.440', 'text': 'very good place to stop. David Alton,'}, {'start': '1746.320', 'end': '1749.520', 'text': 'thanks very much indeed for joining us'}, {'start': '1747.440', 'end': '1750.799', 'text': 'on the pod today. A pleasure. So Mark,'}, {'start': '1749.520', 'end': '1752.320', 'text': 'what did you make of that? I could have'}, {'start': '1750.799', 'end': '1753.600', 'text': 'sat listening to that with David for'}, {'start': '1752.320', 'end': '1755.840', 'text': 'quite some time. It was a really'}, {'start': '1753.600', 'end': '1757.520', 'text': 'enjoyable interview to do. I was very'}, {'start': '1755.840', 'end': '1759.279', 'text': 'struck always comes across with David'}, {'start': '1757.520', 'end': '1760.559', 'text': 'his passion for the subject. Well, there'}, {'start': '1759.279', 'end': '1761.679', 'text': 'are a couple of points that hit me'}, {'start': '1760.559', 'end': '1763.679', 'text': "immediately. First of all, he's an"}, {'start': '1761.679', 'end': '1765.039', 'text': 'extremely experienced parliamentarian.'}, {'start': '1763.679', 'end': '1766.559', 'text': "He'd been around in the House of Commons"}, {'start': '1765.039', 'end': '1767.760', 'text': 'for a very long time before becoming a'}, {'start': '1766.559', 'end': '1770.080', 'text': "member of the House of Lords. He'd been"}, {'start': '1767.760', 'end': '1772.720', 'text': 'there quite a while now as well. And'}, {'start': '1770.080', 'end': '1776.120', 'text': 'secondly, just the sheer breadth of the'}, {'start': '1772.720', 'end': '1778.880', 'text': 'agenda this committee has transnational'}, {'start': '1776.120', 'end': '1780.440', 'text': 'repression of nationals of foreign'}, {'start': '1778.880', 'end': '1783.039', 'text': 'countries who are living in Britain'}, {'start': '1780.440', 'end': '1784.880', 'text': "whose home governments don't much like"}, {'start': '1783.039', 'end': '1786.640', 'text': "what they're up to in their political"}, {'start': '1784.880', 'end': '1789.039', 'text': 'activities or the human rights advocacy'}, {'start': '1786.640', 'end': '1791.440', 'text': 'or whatever it is. The supply chain'}, {'start': '1789.039', 'end': '1793.120', 'text': 'concerns about places where essentially'}, {'start': '1791.440', 'end': '1795.120', 'text': 'slave labor is used to make products'}, {'start': '1793.120', 'end': '1797.440', 'text': 'that then show up for sale in the United'}, {'start': '1795.120', 'end': '1800.240', 'text': 'Kingdom. All those kind of issues. And'}, {'start': '1797.440', 'end': '1802.320', 'text': 'so there is a vast swave of policy and'}, {'start': '1800.240', 'end': '1803.679', 'text': 'law makingaking in which his committee'}, {'start': '1802.320', 'end': '1805.279', 'text': 'could potentially be involved. And I'}, {'start': '1803.679', 'end': '1806.559', 'text': 'wonder if one of the constraints on him'}, {'start': '1805.279', 'end': '1808.640', 'text': "really is that they just don't have the"}, {'start': '1806.559', 'end': '1810.640', 'text': 'bandwidth to do it all. Yeah. And one'}, {'start': '1808.640', 'end': '1812.159', 'text': "issue we didn't get to actually in the"}, {'start': '1810.640', 'end': '1813.679', 'text': 'interview because David had to head off'}, {'start': '1812.159', 'end': '1815.360', 'text': 'into the laws. He was taking part in a'}, {'start': '1813.679', 'end': '1817.679', 'text': "debate so we couldn't keep him any"}, {'start': '1815.360', 'end': '1820.320', 'text': 'longer. But the committee also looks at'}, {'start': '1817.679', 'end': '1822.320', 'text': 'an area of legislation in my favorite'}, {'start': '1820.320', 'end': '1823.919', 'text': 'area delegated legislation. They look at'}, {'start': '1822.320', 'end': '1826.000', 'text': 'a discreet aspect called remedial'}, {'start': '1823.919', 'end': '1828.720', 'text': "orders. They're quite rare and basically"}, {'start': '1826.000', 'end': '1830.240', 'text': 'a remedial order is where if a court is'}, {'start': '1828.720', 'end': '1832.480', 'text': "concerned there's been a breach of human"}, {'start': '1830.240', 'end': '1834.720', 'text': 'rights the remedial order is used to'}, {'start': '1832.480', 'end': '1836.320', 'text': "correct it to rectify it and there's a"}, {'start': '1834.720', 'end': '1837.679', 'text': 'case at the moment of a remedial order'}, {'start': '1836.320', 'end': '1839.840', 'text': 'the committee is looking at in relation'}, {'start': '1837.679', 'end': '1841.440', 'text': 'to the Northern Ireland Troubles Legacy'}, {'start': '1839.840', 'end': '1843.360', 'text': 'and Reconciliation Act and this is'}, {'start': '1841.440', 'end': '1844.880', 'text': 'caught up in a quite a difficult and'}, {'start': '1843.360', 'end': '1846.720', 'text': 'contentious court case in Northern'}, {'start': '1844.880', 'end': '1850.799', 'text': 'Ireland involving Jerry Adams and his'}, {'start': '1846.720', 'end': '1853.039', 'text': 'appeal against his 1975 conviction for'}, {'start': '1850.799', 'end': '1855.039', 'text': 'attempting to escape from lawful custody'}, {'start': '1853.039', 'end': '1857.360', 'text': "and questions about whether or not he's"}, {'start': '1855.039', 'end': '1859.200', 'text': 'going to be able to sue and and get'}, {'start': '1857.360', 'end': '1860.640', 'text': 'compensation for this perceived'}, {'start': '1859.200', 'end': '1862.399', 'text': 'miscarriage of justice which the British'}, {'start': '1860.640', 'end': '1863.760', 'text': 'government says was not a miscarriage of'}, {'start': '1862.399', 'end': '1865.520', 'text': 'justice. So the committee is looking at'}, {'start': '1863.760', 'end': '1867.919', 'text': 'that. So as you say the breadth and'}, {'start': '1865.520', 'end': '1869.840', 'text': 'complexity of the issues is enormous.'}, {'start': '1867.919', 'end': '1871.360', 'text': 'Indeed and we discussing right at the'}, {'start': '1869.840', 'end': '1873.840', 'text': 'end of that interview the Hillsborough'}, {'start': '1871.360', 'end': '1876.080', 'text': 'law if and when that finally appears in'}, {'start': '1873.840', 'end': '1877.679', 'text': 'parliament. I suspect that the human'}, {'start': '1876.080', 'end': '1879.760', 'text': 'rights committee is going to be a very'}, {'start': '1877.679', 'end': '1882.480', 'text': 'active participant in nailing down'}, {'start': '1879.760', 'end': '1885.120', 'text': 'absolutely the right details to get a'}, {'start': '1882.480', 'end': '1887.520', 'text': 'system where when future disasters'}, {'start': '1885.120', 'end': '1890.399', 'text': 'happen, there is an advocate in place'}, {'start': '1887.520', 'end': '1893.840', 'text': 'and the victims have rights and there is'}, {'start': '1890.399', 'end': '1895.760', 'text': 'a genuine duty of cander placed on all'}, {'start': '1893.840', 'end': '1897.919', 'text': 'the officials and civil servants and so'}, {'start': '1895.760', 'end': '1899.679', 'text': 'forth who might be involved to tell the'}, {'start': '1897.919', 'end': '1901.679', 'text': 'truth because the horrible example of'}, {'start': '1899.679', 'end': '1904.080', 'text': 'the Hillsbor case still looms very large'}, {'start': '1901.679', 'end': '1905.840', 'text': 'over Westminster even now. Yeah. And I'}, {'start': '1904.080', 'end': '1907.919', 'text': 'think it precisely because human rights'}, {'start': '1905.840', 'end': '1910.240', 'text': 'is looming so large and has become such'}, {'start': '1907.919', 'end': '1912.080', 'text': 'a a contentious issue and a bit of a'}, {'start': '1910.240', 'end': '1914.320', 'text': 'political porn between the parties and'}, {'start': '1912.080', 'end': '1916.960', 'text': 'is a brickback thrown in the media. The'}, {'start': '1914.320', 'end': '1918.640', 'text': "committee's profile I think has become"}, {'start': '1916.960', 'end': '1920.320', 'text': 'higher and higher in recent parliaments.'}, {'start': '1918.640', 'end': '1922.000', 'text': "I mean it's had some heavyhitting chairs"}, {'start': '1920.320', 'end': '1923.039', 'text': 'in in recent parliament. Harriet Harmon'}, {'start': '1922.000', 'end': '1925.039', 'text': 'chaired it initially in the last'}, {'start': '1923.039', 'end': '1926.320', 'text': 'parliament stepped back from doing it'}, {'start': '1925.039', 'end': '1927.919', 'text': 'when she took over the privileges'}, {'start': '1926.320', 'end': '1930.000', 'text': 'committee. Then it was Joanna Cherry'}, {'start': '1927.919', 'end': '1931.360', 'text': 'Joanna Cherry of the S&P. Yeah. And it'}, {'start': '1930.000', 'end': '1932.880', 'text': 'was interesting when you you introduced'}, {'start': '1931.360', 'end': '1934.320', 'text': 'the start of the podcast Mark you talked'}, {'start': '1932.880', 'end': '1936.559', 'text': 'about David Alton being a slightly'}, {'start': '1934.320', 'end': '1938.080', 'text': 'unusual character for chair not really'}, {'start': '1936.559', 'end': '1940.240', 'text': 'in terms of his issues and his'}, {'start': '1938.080', 'end': '1942.320', 'text': 'commitment to the subject his knowledge'}, {'start': '1940.240', 'end': '1944.480', 'text': 'unusual politically as we talked about'}, {'start': '1942.320', 'end': '1945.679', 'text': "that he wouldn't expect first as a peer"}, {'start': '1944.480', 'end': '1948.080', 'text': "because a peer doesn't normally chair"}, {'start': '1945.679', 'end': '1949.840', 'text': 'the joint committee and secondly as a'}, {'start': '1948.080', 'end': '1951.919', 'text': "non-aligned you know he's not a party"}, {'start': '1949.840', 'end': '1953.600', 'text': "aligned peer you wouldn't expect to be"}, {'start': '1951.919', 'end': '1955.519', 'text': 'chairing it and interestingly he went'}, {'start': '1953.600', 'end': '1958.000', 'text': 'into the meeting seemingly with no'}, {'start': '1955.519', 'end': '1959.840', 'text': 'expectation of doing so and suddenly'}, {'start': '1958.000', 'end': '1961.200', 'text': "walked out with the job. It's quite"}, {'start': '1959.840', 'end': '1963.039', 'text': 'interesting. He was nominated, as I'}, {'start': '1961.200', 'end': '1965.600', 'text': 'understand it, by the Conservative MP on'}, {'start': '1963.039', 'end': '1967.279', 'text': 'the committee, Desmond Swain. And I'}, {'start': '1965.600', 'end': '1969.360', 'text': 'suspect that a factor in all this was'}, {'start': '1967.279', 'end': '1970.799', 'text': "he's been working very closely with Ian"}, {'start': '1969.360', 'end': '1972.960', 'text': 'Duncan Smith, the former Conservative'}, {'start': '1970.799', 'end': '1974.720', 'text': 'leader, on issues pertaining to China.'}, {'start': '1972.960', 'end': '1976.240', 'text': "And maybe that's one of the reasons why"}, {'start': '1974.720', 'end': '1977.679', 'text': 'people thought this is a good person to'}, {'start': '1976.240', 'end': '1980.000', 'text': 'be in this chair. Yeah. If you look at'}, {'start': '1977.679', 'end': '1982.080', 'text': 'the MPs on the committee who normally'}, {'start': '1980.000', 'end': '1983.840', 'text': 'would be providing the chair, half of'}, {'start': '1982.080', 'end': '1986.000', 'text': "them are 2024 intake, so they're"}, {'start': '1983.840', 'end': '1987.840', 'text': 'completely new. and the conservative the'}, {'start': '1986.000', 'end': '1990.080', 'text': 'lead sort of opposition party'}, {'start': '1987.840', 'end': '1992.080', 'text': 'representative as you say Desmond Swain'}, {'start': '1990.080', 'end': '1993.440', 'text': "whilst he's an asserbic questioner I'm"}, {'start': '1992.080', 'end': '1995.519', 'text': 'not sure he would have been very keen'}, {'start': '1993.440', 'end': '1997.279', 'text': 'necessarily to chair it or perhaps been'}, {'start': '1995.519', 'end': '1998.880', 'text': 'the right character to chair it but'}, {'start': '1997.279', 'end': '2000.559', 'text': 'certainly the days when this was a'}, {'start': '1998.880', 'end': '2002.640', 'text': 'rather technical committee that looked'}, {'start': '2000.559', 'end': '2004.399', 'text': 'at very narrow issues around the legal'}, {'start': '2002.640', 'end': '2006.320', 'text': 'interpretation of human rights law and'}, {'start': '2004.399', 'end': '2008.000', 'text': "legislation are long gone and it's"}, {'start': '2006.320', 'end': '2009.519', 'text': 'started to take a much wider brief and'}, {'start': '2008.000', 'end': '2011.519', 'text': 'has been I think rather the better for'}, {'start': '2009.519', 'end': '2013.279', 'text': 'it and I think uh he you know talking to'}, {'start': '2011.519', 'end': '2014.399', 'text': 'David and it came across particularly in'}, {'start': '2013.279', 'end': '2015.840', 'text': 'the session that they had with the'}, {'start': '2014.399', 'end': '2018.080', 'text': 'attorney general Richard Hurmer, Lord'}, {'start': '2015.840', 'end': '2019.840', 'text': 'Hurmer, he clearly sees a sort of public'}, {'start': '2018.080', 'end': '2021.039', 'text': 'education role for the committee. So'}, {'start': '2019.840', 'end': '2023.360', 'text': "it'll be interesting to see how that"}, {'start': '2021.039', 'end': '2024.559', 'text': 'plays out in the uh the months ahead.'}, {'start': '2023.360', 'end': '2026.000', 'text': 'Without Ruth, should we take a quick'}, {'start': '2024.559', 'end': '2027.360', 'text': "break? Let's take a quick break and I"}, {'start': '2026.000', 'end': '2028.799', 'text': 'think we should come back and talk about'}, {'start': '2027.360', 'end': '2031.400', 'text': 'the assisted dying bill and where we'}, {'start': '2028.799', 'end': '2032.720', 'text': 'are. Absolutely. See you in a minute.'}, {'start': '2031.400', 'end': '2034.480', 'text': '[Music]'}, {'start': '2032.720', 'end': '2036.240', 'text': 'As a listener to Parliament Matters,'}, {'start': '2034.480', 'end': '2038.720', 'text': 'your feedback is crucial to the future'}, {'start': '2036.240', 'end': '2040.399', 'text': 'of the show. We need to hear from you.'}, {'start': '2038.720', 'end': '2042.159', 'text': 'We want to make the show better and the'}, {'start': '2040.399', 'end': '2044.480', 'text': 'best way to do that is to hear directly'}, {'start': '2042.159', 'end': '2046.240', 'text': 'from you. Our short listener survey will'}, {'start': '2044.480', 'end': '2048.320', 'text': "help us understand what's working and"}, {'start': '2046.240', 'end': '2050.480', 'text': "what's not and how we can grow the"}, {'start': '2048.320', 'end': '2052.639', 'text': 'podcast. But crucially, knowing more'}, {'start': '2050.480', 'end': '2055.119', 'text': 'about our audience through your feedback'}, {'start': '2052.639', 'end': '2056.800', 'text': 'will also help us attract sponsors. And'}, {'start': '2055.119', 'end': '2058.879', 'text': "let's be blunt, it's their advertising"}, {'start': '2056.800', 'end': '2061.599', 'text': 'revenue that keeps this podcast and lots'}, {'start': '2058.879', 'end': '2063.359', 'text': 'of other podcasts free to listen to. So,'}, {'start': '2061.599', 'end': '2064.960', 'text': 'if you enjoy Parliament Matters, filling'}, {'start': '2063.359', 'end': '2067.200', 'text': 'out the survey is a way to help us keep'}, {'start': '2064.960', 'end': '2068.879', 'text': 'the podcast going. The survey has been'}, {'start': '2067.200', 'end': '2071.119', 'text': 'designed by Acast, the podcast'}, {'start': '2068.879', 'end': '2073.440', 'text': 'publishing platform that we use. You can'}, {'start': '2071.119', 'end': '2075.280', 'text': 'complete it anonymously. The link is at'}, {'start': '2073.440', 'end': '2077.440', 'text': 'the top of the podcast show notes in'}, {'start': '2075.280', 'end': '2079.200', 'text': "your app. It'll only take a few minutes,"}, {'start': '2077.440', 'end': '2080.400', 'text': 'but it will make a difference. Thank'}, {'start': '2079.200', 'end': '2082.000', 'text': 'you.'}, {'start': '2080.400', 'end': '2083.520', 'text': '[Music]'}, {'start': '2082.000', 'end': '2085.280', 'text': "And we're back. And Ruth, we're in a bit"}, {'start': '2083.520', 'end': '2088.079', 'text': 'of a pause at the moment with the'}, {'start': '2085.280', 'end': '2090.320', 'text': "assisted dying bill. It's cleared its"}, {'start': '2088.079', 'end': '2091.919', 'text': "committee stage. It's due to be back in"}, {'start': '2090.320', 'end': '2094.079', 'text': 'front of the whole House of Commons on'}, {'start': '2091.919', 'end': '2095.679', 'text': 'the 16th of May for its report stage.'}, {'start': '2094.079', 'end': '2098.000', 'text': "You'll have heard listeners, I hope, our"}, {'start': '2095.679', 'end': '2100.000', 'text': 'very in-depth discussion of the inner'}, {'start': '2098.000', 'end': '2102.240', 'text': 'workings of report stage proceedings'}, {'start': '2100.000', 'end': '2104.800', 'text': 'with former Commons clerk and'}, {'start': '2102.240', 'end': '2106.800', 'text': 'parliamentary procedure guru Paul Evans'}, {'start': '2104.800', 'end': '2108.800', 'text': 'in an earlier episode of the pod, but'}, {'start': '2106.800', 'end': '2110.800', 'text': "we're waiting for that. Amendments are"}, {'start': '2108.800', 'end': '2112.640', 'text': 'accumulating on the amendment paper, but'}, {'start': '2110.800', 'end': '2113.920', 'text': "it's all gone rather quiet at the"}, {'start': '2112.640', 'end': '2115.599', 'text': 'moment, partly because the political'}, {'start': '2113.920', 'end': '2118.000', 'text': 'focus is just elsewhere on all sorts of'}, {'start': '2115.599', 'end': '2119.280', 'text': 'other subjects. One thing to note at the'}, {'start': '2118.000', 'end': '2120.800', 'text': "moment we're still waiting for the"}, {'start': '2119.280', 'end': '2122.240', 'text': 'impact assessment for this bill which'}, {'start': '2120.800', 'end': '2124.000', 'text': 'the government as you remember Mark'}, {'start': '2122.240', 'end': '2126.880', 'text': 'promised that MPs would have before'}, {'start': '2124.000', 'end': '2128.320', 'text': "report stage. We're now what Fortnite as"}, {'start': '2126.880', 'end': '2130.119', 'text': "we're recording 1 of May. We're sort of"}, {'start': '2128.320', 'end': '2132.560', 'text': 'just two weeks away from'}, {'start': '2130.119', 'end': '2135.040', 'text': "it and you can't really imagine that"}, {'start': '2132.560', 'end': '2136.560', 'text': "it's all that difficult to compile."}, {'start': '2135.040', 'end': '2138.000', 'text': "Well, I don't know. I mean presumably"}, {'start': '2136.560', 'end': '2140.160', 'text': "it's a bit more difficult than perhaps"}, {'start': '2138.000', 'end': '2141.760', 'text': 'we imagine.'}, {'start': '2140.160', 'end': '2143.359', 'text': 'I mean I think this is probably one of'}, {'start': '2141.760', 'end': '2145.599', 'text': "the challenges is that there isn't the"}, {'start': '2143.359', 'end': '2147.200', 'text': 'operational detail in the bill. So the'}, {'start': '2145.599', 'end': '2149.280', 'text': 'government is in effect having to fill'}, {'start': '2147.200', 'end': '2151.680', 'text': 'out what it thinks the options are for'}, {'start': '2149.280', 'end': '2154.560', 'text': 'how it could run the service and the'}, {'start': '2151.680', 'end': '2156.480', 'text': "system and it's then got to do all the"}, {'start': '2154.560', 'end': '2157.920', 'text': 'impact provisions around that. Maybe'}, {'start': '2156.480', 'end': '2159.280', 'text': 'ministers have got to sit down and work'}, {'start': '2157.920', 'end': '2160.720', 'text': 'out how they think it ought to play out'}, {'start': '2159.280', 'end': '2162.720', 'text': 'and there are still questions to be'}, {'start': '2160.720', 'end': '2164.560', 'text': 'answered before the civil servants can'}, {'start': '2162.720', 'end': '2166.480', 'text': "write that document. And if that's still"}, {'start': '2164.560', 'end': '2168.640', 'text': 'hanging in the air now. Yeah. And'}, {'start': '2166.480', 'end': '2170.000', 'text': "politically doing that when you've got"}, {'start': '2168.640', 'end': '2172.079', 'text': 'your two lead ministers in the'}, {'start': '2170.000', 'end': '2174.000', 'text': "department don't support the legislation"}, {'start': '2172.079', 'end': '2176.400', 'text': "could be politically tricky. But we're"}, {'start': '2174.000', 'end': '2177.839', 'text': "hearing it's imminent. So, you know,"}, {'start': '2176.400', 'end': '2179.520', 'text': "I've been hearing that for a while. It"}, {'start': '2177.839', 'end': '2180.800', 'text': 'could be early next week after the bank'}, {'start': '2179.520', 'end': '2182.480', 'text': "holiday. I mean, it's got to be next"}, {'start': '2180.800', 'end': '2184.240', 'text': 'week, surely. Well, as a Southern Trains'}, {'start': '2182.480', 'end': '2187.560', 'text': 'commuter, I reach for my revolver when I'}, {'start': '2184.240', 'end': '2187.560', 'text': 'hear the word imminent.'}, {'start': '2187.680', 'end': '2191.599', 'text': "Anyway, we've got 17 pages of"}, {'start': '2189.520', 'end': '2193.359', 'text': 'amendments. So, six new clauses, 37'}, {'start': '2191.599', 'end': '2194.880', 'text': 'amendments so far. Two have already been'}, {'start': '2193.359', 'end': '2196.800', 'text': 'withdrawn, sort of replaced by others,'}, {'start': '2194.880', 'end': '2198.960', 'text': "but you know, there's clearly building"}, {'start': '2196.800', 'end': '2201.040', 'text': "up. There's still time, a week, 10 days"}, {'start': '2198.960', 'end': '2203.599', 'text': 'worth of of time now for further'}, {'start': '2201.040', 'end': '2205.520', 'text': 'amendments to be tabled. So I expect'}, {'start': '2203.599', 'end': '2207.680', 'text': 'that number will grow. And as we heard'}, {'start': '2205.520', 'end': '2209.440', 'text': 'from Paul, one of the ways to make'}, {'start': '2207.680', 'end': '2210.960', 'text': 'progress at report stage tricky is'}, {'start': '2209.440', 'end': '2212.640', 'text': 'effectively to flood the amendment paper'}, {'start': '2210.960', 'end': '2214.000', 'text': 'with lots and lots and lots and lots and'}, {'start': '2212.640', 'end': '2216.000', 'text': 'lots of amendments that they they would'}, {'start': '2214.000', 'end': '2218.880', 'text': 'have to get through. Another thing that'}, {'start': '2216.000', 'end': '2221.440', 'text': "we've noticed in that podcast, that"}, {'start': '2218.880', 'end': '2223.359', 'text': 'special discussion with with Paul Evans,'}, {'start': '2221.440', 'end': '2225.200', 'text': 'we talked about the fact that in effect'}, {'start': '2223.359', 'end': '2227.599', 'text': 'the assisted dying bill is blocking the'}, {'start': '2225.200', 'end': '2229.680', 'text': 'progress of other private members bills'}, {'start': '2227.599', 'end': '2232.560', 'text': 'that made progress in the ballot. So'}, {'start': '2229.680', 'end': '2234.960', 'text': 'that other 19 of the 20 private members'}, {'start': '2232.560', 'end': '2237.440', 'text': 'bills that MPs are waiting to bring'}, {'start': '2234.960', 'end': '2240.160', 'text': 'forward and the next in line is the as'}, {'start': '2237.440', 'end': '2243.520', 'text': 'we discussed last time the ferrets bill'}, {'start': '2240.160', 'end': '2245.520', 'text': 'as if shorthand and that is waiting to'}, {'start': '2243.520', 'end': '2247.119', 'text': 'go into public bill committee now and'}, {'start': '2245.520', 'end': '2248.880', 'text': "hasn't yet for reasons no one's quite"}, {'start': '2247.119', 'end': '2250.720', 'text': "sure of. Well, I assume it's because"}, {'start': '2248.880', 'end': '2252.560', 'text': "they're delaying things in order to keep"}, {'start': '2250.720', 'end': '2254.079', 'text': 'the the route clear for the assisted'}, {'start': '2252.560', 'end': '2255.599', 'text': 'dying bill because the last thing they'}, {'start': '2254.079', 'end': '2258.079', 'text': 'want is for the ferrets bill to get out'}, {'start': '2255.599', 'end': '2259.280', 'text': 'of its public bill committee and then be'}, {'start': '2258.079', 'end': '2261.520', 'text': 'in a position where it would take'}, {'start': '2259.280', 'end': '2263.359', 'text': 'priority over the assisted dying bill.'}, {'start': '2261.520', 'end': '2264.880', 'text': 'Yeah. And then opponents of the assisted'}, {'start': '2263.359', 'end': '2266.079', 'text': 'dying bill develop a sudden deep'}, {'start': '2264.880', 'end': '2268.160', 'text': 'interest in the issue of ferret'}, {'start': '2266.079', 'end': '2270.000', 'text': 'importation. Yeah. String out the debate'}, {'start': '2268.160', 'end': '2271.359', 'text': 'on the ferrets bill and the assisted'}, {'start': '2270.000', 'end': '2272.960', 'text': 'dying bill gets five minutes at the end'}, {'start': '2271.359', 'end': '2274.320', 'text': "of the session and bada bim it's out of"}, {'start': '2272.960', 'end': '2275.920', 'text': 'contention. Yeah. But the other thing'}, {'start': '2274.320', 'end': '2277.680', 'text': "that we've noticed is that on the future"}, {'start': '2275.920', 'end': '2280.240', 'text': 'business paper now for that bill there'}, {'start': '2277.680', 'end': '2282.000', 'text': 'is a requirement for a money motion. So'}, {'start': '2280.240', 'end': '2284.240', 'text': 'listeners to the podcast you think back'}, {'start': '2282.000', 'end': '2285.520', 'text': 'to the early episodes we had about the'}, {'start': '2284.240', 'end': '2288.000', 'text': 'assisted dying bill. This was something'}, {'start': '2285.520', 'end': '2290.079', 'text': 'we talked about then as well that if'}, {'start': '2288.000', 'end': '2292.240', 'text': 'there are provisions in a bill which'}, {'start': '2290.079', 'end': '2294.640', 'text': 'have financial implications that you'}, {'start': '2292.240', 'end': '2296.560', 'text': 'know need to be funded then you need a'}, {'start': '2294.640', 'end': '2298.160', 'text': 'money motion. The house normally would'}, {'start': '2296.560', 'end': '2300.240', 'text': 'approve that immediately after second'}, {'start': '2298.160', 'end': '2301.520', 'text': "reading for a government bill. It's done"}, {'start': '2300.240', 'end': '2303.760', 'text': 'differently for a private members bill.'}, {'start': '2301.520', 'end': '2305.920', 'text': "It's usually done separately. So there"}, {'start': '2303.760', 'end': '2309.200', 'text': 'is indeed provisions that need funding'}, {'start': '2305.920', 'end': '2310.960', 'text': "in that ferret importation bill and it's"}, {'start': '2309.200', 'end': '2312.240', 'text': 'on the future business paper that of the'}, {'start': '2310.960', 'end': '2315.200', 'text': 'House of Commons that they are going to'}, {'start': '2312.240', 'end': '2317.119', 'text': 'need that and that has not yet been'}, {'start': '2315.200', 'end': '2319.079', 'text': 'scheduled for a particular day. Now they'}, {'start': '2317.119', 'end': '2321.520', 'text': 'can still put the bill into public bill'}, {'start': '2319.079', 'end': '2323.040', 'text': "committee. It just can't do anything"}, {'start': '2321.520', 'end': '2325.280', 'text': "once it's there. It can't get to"}, {'start': '2323.040', 'end': '2327.359', 'text': "discussing the detail of the bill's"}, {'start': '2325.280', 'end': '2330.680', 'text': "provisions. It'll be in suspended"}, {'start': '2327.359', 'end': '2333.440', 'text': 'animation. Yeah. So all these procedural'}, {'start': '2330.680', 'end': '2335.920', 'text': 'intricacies potentially are clogging up'}, {'start': '2333.440', 'end': '2337.920', 'text': 'not just the assisted dying bills'}, {'start': '2335.920', 'end': '2339.520', 'text': 'consideration but actually the'}, {'start': '2337.920', 'end': '2341.280', 'text': 'consideration of all sorts of other'}, {'start': '2339.520', 'end': '2342.960', 'text': 'bills. And it may be that the assisted'}, {'start': '2341.280', 'end': '2344.800', 'text': 'dying bill becomes the only private'}, {'start': '2342.960', 'end': '2346.400', 'text': 'members bill in this session that gets a'}, {'start': '2344.800', 'end': '2348.160', 'text': 'chance to be passed and all the others'}, {'start': '2346.400', 'end': '2349.760', 'text': 'have been waiting so long behind it that'}, {'start': '2348.160', 'end': '2352.320', 'text': 'they never really see the light of day.'}, {'start': '2349.760', 'end': '2354.160', 'text': "or the alternative is that they're all"}, {'start': '2352.320', 'end': '2356.000', 'text': 'stuck behind the assisted dying bill.'}, {'start': '2354.160', 'end': '2358.240', 'text': 'And once the assisted dying bill gets'}, {'start': '2356.000', 'end': '2359.760', 'text': 'unblocked and makes progress, it'}, {'start': '2358.240', 'end': '2361.760', 'text': 'unblocks the rest as well. And you'}, {'start': '2359.760', 'end': '2363.200', 'text': 'suddenly get this steady stream of these'}, {'start': '2361.760', 'end': '2365.359', 'text': 'private members bills flowing through'}, {'start': '2363.200', 'end': '2367.119', 'text': 'the system and they get onto the statute'}, {'start': '2365.359', 'end': '2368.560', 'text': 'but but with very little if any'}, {'start': '2367.119', 'end': '2369.839', 'text': "scrutiny. Yeah. Well, that's the thing,"}, {'start': '2368.560', 'end': '2372.400', 'text': "isn't it? there'll be an enormous"}, {'start': '2369.839', 'end': '2374.160', 'text': 'temptation to start waving stuff through'}, {'start': '2372.400', 'end': '2376.160', 'text': "because it's been waiting for so long"}, {'start': '2374.160', 'end': '2377.520', 'text': 'and it gets waved onto the statute book'}, {'start': '2376.160', 'end': '2378.720', 'text': 'and then suddenly you discover, oh,'}, {'start': '2377.520', 'end': '2381.040', 'text': "there's a little bit of a problem with"}, {'start': '2378.720', 'end': '2383.839', 'text': 'this. And we should say these bills are'}, {'start': '2381.040', 'end': '2385.920', 'text': 'small, quite technical changes, quite'}, {'start': '2383.839', 'end': '2387.760', 'text': 'modest pieces of legislation compared to'}, {'start': '2385.920', 'end': '2389.040', 'text': "the assisted dying bill. But if you've"}, {'start': '2387.760', 'end': '2391.839', 'text': "succeeded in the ballot, you're one of"}, {'start': '2389.040', 'end': '2393.440', 'text': "those 20 MPs and you're sort of thinking"}, {'start': '2391.839', 'end': '2395.040', 'text': 'actually the chances of my bill getting'}, {'start': '2393.440', 'end': '2396.560', 'text': 'onto the statute book, having put a lot'}, {'start': '2395.040', 'end': '2398.400', 'text': "of work into it, you know, it's reducing"}, {'start': '2396.560', 'end': '2399.599', 'text': 'by the day the the possibilities that'}, {'start': '2398.400', 'end': '2401.359', 'text': "you're going to get it onto the statute"}, {'start': '2399.599', 'end': '2402.880', 'text': 'book. You might be slightly frustrated,'}, {'start': '2401.359', 'end': '2405.599', 'text': "particularly if you're also an opponent"}, {'start': '2402.880', 'end': '2407.680', 'text': 'of of assisted dying. Meanwhile, a few'}, {'start': '2405.599', 'end': '2409.760', 'text': 'hundred miles north of Westminster,'}, {'start': '2407.680', 'end': '2411.440', 'text': "there's an example of possibly how this"}, {'start': '2409.760', 'end': '2413.560', 'text': 'sort of thing could be done an awful lot'}, {'start': '2411.440', 'end': '2416.000', 'text': 'better. Yes,'}, {'start': '2413.560', 'end': '2418.160', 'text': "Scotland, Edinburgh. There's been a"}, {'start': '2416.000', 'end': '2419.440', 'text': 'report published this week by the Health'}, {'start': '2418.160', 'end': '2422.480', 'text': 'and Social Care Committee in the'}, {'start': '2419.440', 'end': '2424.560', 'text': 'Scottish Parliament. It has looked at'}, {'start': '2422.480', 'end': '2426.800', 'text': 'the assisted dying for terminally ill'}, {'start': '2424.560', 'end': '2430.320', 'text': "adults Scotland bill that's been brought"}, {'start': '2426.800', 'end': '2432.079', 'text': 'forward by the Liberal Democrat MSP Liam'}, {'start': '2430.320', 'end': '2434.560', 'text': 'MacArthur who represents the Ornne'}, {'start': '2432.079', 'end': '2436.640', 'text': "Islands. He's brought this bill forward"}, {'start': '2434.560', 'end': '2438.240', 'text': 'as a effectively a private members bill'}, {'start': '2436.640', 'end': '2439.839', 'text': 'in the Scottish Parliament. They call it'}, {'start': '2438.240', 'end': '2442.079', 'text': 'members bills as opposed to government'}, {'start': '2439.839', 'end': '2444.320', 'text': 'bills. The interesting thing about this'}, {'start': '2442.079', 'end': '2446.640', 'text': 'is that this bill has been in progress'}, {'start': '2444.320', 'end': '2448.560', 'text': 'and preparation for several years and'}, {'start': '2446.640', 'end': '2450.560', 'text': 'the committee has reported because it is'}, {'start': '2448.560', 'end': '2453.200', 'text': 'the first formal stage of the'}, {'start': '2450.560', 'end': '2455.760', 'text': 'legislative process. So Scottish'}, {'start': '2453.200', 'end': '2457.359', 'text': "parliament because it's a single chamber"}, {'start': '2455.760', 'end': '2459.839', 'text': 'it has a different approach to its'}, {'start': '2457.359', 'end': '2462.160', 'text': 'legislative procedures and once a bill'}, {'start': '2459.839', 'end': '2463.920', 'text': 'is published it goes effectively the'}, {'start': '2462.160', 'end': '2466.400', 'text': 'equivalent of second reading. it goes to'}, {'start': '2463.920', 'end': '2468.400', 'text': 'a committee because their committees'}, {'start': '2466.400', 'end': '2470.640', 'text': 'equivalent to our select committees look'}, {'start': '2468.400', 'end': '2472.800', 'text': 'at both policy and departmental'}, {'start': '2470.640', 'end': '2475.200', 'text': 'financial spending but also look at'}, {'start': '2472.800', 'end': '2477.119', 'text': 'legislation whereas in Westminster'}, {'start': '2475.200', 'end': '2478.319', 'text': 'committees are separated you have'}, {'start': '2477.119', 'end': '2479.760', 'text': 'committees to look at policy and'}, {'start': '2478.319', 'end': '2481.280', 'text': 'committees to look at legislation they'}, {'start': '2479.760', 'end': '2484.000', 'text': 'combine that in the in the Scottish'}, {'start': '2481.280', 'end': '2486.200', 'text': 'parliament so this committee is looking'}, {'start': '2484.000', 'end': '2489.040', 'text': "at what's called the stage one the"}, {'start': '2486.200', 'end': '2491.200', 'text': 'principles of the bill and then it'}, {'start': '2489.040', 'end': '2493.119', 'text': 'reports to the chamber and then the'}, {'start': '2491.200', 'end': '2495.280', 'text': 'chamber will debate and consider it'}, {'start': '2493.119', 'end': '2497.040', 'text': 'approve or or not for it to move forward'}, {'start': '2495.280', 'end': '2498.319', 'text': 'to the next stage. I suppose one of the'}, {'start': '2497.040', 'end': '2500.480', 'text': 'things about the Scottish legislation'}, {'start': '2498.319', 'end': '2502.560', 'text': "though, it's not the same. It is not the"}, {'start': '2500.480', 'end': '2504.400', 'text': 'Kim LED beta bill translated into'}, {'start': '2502.560', 'end': '2505.440', 'text': 'Scottish law in exactly the same way.'}, {'start': '2504.400', 'end': '2507.040', 'text': 'There are actually some quite'}, {'start': '2505.440', 'end': '2508.880', 'text': "significant differences between what's"}, {'start': '2507.040', 'end': '2510.960', 'text': "being proposed in Scotland and what's"}, {'start': '2508.880', 'end': '2512.960', 'text': 'being proposed for England and Wales.'}, {'start': '2510.960', 'end': '2514.960', 'text': 'Yes. Well, the key difference really is'}, {'start': '2512.960', 'end': '2517.280', 'text': "that it doesn't include the time scale"}, {'start': '2514.960', 'end': '2518.960', 'text': "for life expectancy that Kim Lea's bill."}, {'start': '2517.280', 'end': '2520.720', 'text': 'The six months left to live rule that'}, {'start': '2518.960', 'end': '2522.560', 'text': "Kim Lea has in her bill isn't there in"}, {'start': '2520.720', 'end': '2524.560', 'text': 'the Scottish legislation. No. So I mean'}, {'start': '2522.560', 'end': '2526.880', 'text': 'the committee says that it therefore'}, {'start': '2524.560', 'end': '2529.200', 'text': 'widens the eligibility to the prospect'}, {'start': '2526.880', 'end': '2531.680', 'text': "of people who've got progressive or"}, {'start': '2529.200', 'end': '2533.359', 'text': "untreatable conditions. You don't know"}, {'start': '2531.680', 'end': '2534.720', 'text': "whether you've got six months left or"}, {'start': '2533.359', 'end': '2535.920', 'text': "not and that they're terminal in the"}, {'start': '2534.720', 'end': '2538.079', 'text': "sense they're not going to get any"}, {'start': '2535.920', 'end': '2539.680', 'text': "better but they're not terminal in that"}, {'start': '2538.079', 'end': '2541.200', 'text': 'death is imminent within a certain'}, {'start': '2539.680', 'end': '2543.359', 'text': 'number of months which would be'}, {'start': '2541.200', 'end': '2545.440', 'text': 'difficult to predict anyway. So in'}, {'start': '2543.359', 'end': '2547.359', 'text': 'effect the eligibility criteria in the'}, {'start': '2545.440', 'end': '2549.599', 'text': 'bill are going to be left to medical'}, {'start': '2547.359', 'end': '2551.200', 'text': 'judgment to to a much greater degree.'}, {'start': '2549.599', 'end': '2552.960', 'text': 'And but the thing that got me raising my'}, {'start': '2551.200', 'end': '2555.680', 'text': 'eyebrows was that the minimum age for'}, {'start': '2552.960', 'end': '2557.599', 'text': 'applying for an assisted death is 16.'}, {'start': '2555.680', 'end': '2559.680', 'text': 'Yeah. And the committee reflects on that'}, {'start': '2557.599', 'end': '2561.359', 'text': "and remarks on that. There's also a"}, {'start': '2559.680', 'end': '2563.359', 'text': "residence criteria. They're clearly"}, {'start': '2561.359', 'end': '2565.200', 'text': 'concerned about the prospect of should'}, {'start': '2563.359', 'end': '2567.200', 'text': 'we call it assisted dying shopping or'}, {'start': '2565.200', 'end': '2569.200', 'text': "doctor shopping. If you're denied in,"}, {'start': '2567.200', 'end': '2571.440', 'text': 'for example, England or Wales an'}, {'start': '2569.200', 'end': '2573.680', 'text': 'assisted death, could you go to Scotland'}, {'start': '2571.440', 'end': '2575.760', 'text': 'to to get one under different criteria?'}, {'start': '2573.680', 'end': '2577.280', 'text': 'A less happy version of English people'}, {'start': '2575.760', 'end': '2579.280', 'text': 'going across to Gretner Green to get'}, {'start': '2577.280', 'end': '2580.720', 'text': 'married under Scottish law. Yeah, little'}, {'start': '2579.280', 'end': '2582.480', 'text': "bit awkward, but they're clearly"}, {'start': '2580.720', 'end': '2584.800', 'text': 'concerned about that. And the bill does'}, {'start': '2582.480', 'end': '2587.440', 'text': 'have a residence criteria. So, in order'}, {'start': '2584.800', 'end': '2588.800', 'text': 'to be eligible for consideration one,'}, {'start': '2587.440', 'end': '2591.040', 'text': "you'd have to have lived in Scotland for"}, {'start': '2588.800', 'end': '2593.680', 'text': "at least 12 months. So, that's another"}, {'start': '2591.040', 'end': '2595.839', 'text': 'change. The committee suggests a number'}, {'start': '2593.680', 'end': '2597.359', 'text': 'of of oversight mechanisms and'}, {'start': '2595.839', 'end': '2598.720', 'text': 'safeguards in the bill, not dissimilar'}, {'start': '2597.359', 'end': '2600.240', 'text': "to the kind of arguments we've heard in"}, {'start': '2598.720', 'end': '2602.880', 'text': 'the public bill committee here at'}, {'start': '2600.240', 'end': '2604.960', 'text': 'Westminster. So assigning responsibility'}, {'start': '2602.880', 'end': '2606.240', 'text': 'to an oversight body or to the chief'}, {'start': '2604.960', 'end': '2608.640', 'text': 'medical officer to monitor'}, {'start': '2606.240', 'end': '2610.880', 'text': "implementation to make sure that there's"}, {'start': '2608.640', 'end': '2612.640', 'text': 'compliance with human rights should'}, {'start': '2610.880', 'end': '2614.720', 'text': 'there be conscientious objection for'}, {'start': '2612.640', 'end': '2617.280', 'text': 'health care providers. If you remember a'}, {'start': '2614.720', 'end': '2619.119', 'text': 'few weeks ago, we talked to Professor'}, {'start': '2617.280', 'end': '2621.119', 'text': 'Colin Gavahan, professor in Bristol'}, {'start': '2619.119', 'end': '2623.839', 'text': 'University, who told us about the case'}, {'start': '2621.119', 'end': '2626.000', 'text': 'in New Zealand, and what came out of'}, {'start': '2623.839', 'end': '2627.440', 'text': 'their review of of their assisted dying'}, {'start': '2626.000', 'end': '2629.280', 'text': 'system was the need for more'}, {'start': '2627.440', 'end': '2631.599', 'text': 'psychological support for health care'}, {'start': '2629.280', 'end': '2634.240', 'text': "professionals. That's reflected in in"}, {'start': '2631.599', 'end': '2637.520', 'text': 'the Scottish bill, 14-day period for'}, {'start': '2634.240', 'end': '2639.200', 'text': 'reflection. And the intention of the of'}, {'start': '2637.520', 'end': '2640.880', 'text': "the MSP who's bringing forward the bill,"}, {'start': '2639.200', 'end': '2643.200', 'text': 'Liam MacArthur, as I understand it, that'}, {'start': '2640.880', 'end': '2644.720', 'text': 'he wants this system to be delivered'}, {'start': '2643.200', 'end': '2646.160', 'text': 'through integration with existing health'}, {'start': '2644.720', 'end': '2648.319', 'text': "services. He doesn't want it to be a"}, {'start': '2646.160', 'end': '2649.680', 'text': 'sort of standalone service, which the'}, {'start': '2648.319', 'end': '2652.000', 'text': 'committee says they acknowledge the'}, {'start': '2649.680', 'end': '2653.280', 'text': 'reasons for that. But then it says,'}, {'start': '2652.000', 'end': '2654.640', 'text': "well, that's going to have to be"}, {'start': '2653.280', 'end': '2656.000', 'text': "carefully monitored because what's not"}, {'start': '2654.640', 'end': '2658.400', 'text': 'going to be the knock-on effects and'}, {'start': '2656.000', 'end': '2660.960', 'text': 'impact of that on existing health'}, {'start': '2658.400', 'end': '2663.280', 'text': 'services. And then finally, some aspects'}, {'start': '2660.960', 'end': '2664.560', 'text': 'of the legislation in Scotland, there'}, {'start': '2663.280', 'end': '2666.160', 'text': 'are questions about whether or not'}, {'start': '2664.560', 'end': '2668.160', 'text': 'actually the Scottish Parliament has got'}, {'start': '2666.160', 'end': '2670.720', 'text': 'competence, devolved powers to do what'}, {'start': '2668.160', 'end': '2672.160', 'text': "the bill requires. And therefore, it's"}, {'start': '2670.720', 'end': '2673.599', 'text': "the the committee says that there's"}, {'start': '2672.160', 'end': '2675.680', 'text': 'going to have to be some work with the'}, {'start': '2673.599', 'end': '2677.520', 'text': 'United Kingdom, the Westminster'}, {'start': '2675.680', 'end': '2678.880', 'text': 'government about how that would work and'}, {'start': '2677.520', 'end': '2681.040', 'text': 'whether in fact there needs to be some'}, {'start': '2678.880', 'end': '2683.520', 'text': 'adjustments made to enable them to take'}, {'start': '2681.040', 'end': '2686.880', 'text': 'the bill through. But this bill was'}, {'start': '2683.520', 'end': '2691.119', 'text': 'first brought forward by Mr. MacArthur'}, {'start': '2686.880', 'end': '2693.839', 'text': 'back in 2021. So 3 and a half years just'}, {'start': '2691.119', 'end': '2695.280', 'text': 'over. So it gestation process is both a'}, {'start': '2693.839', 'end': '2697.359', 'text': 'lot more elaborate and a lot more'}, {'start': '2695.280', 'end': '2699.200', 'text': 'thorough. And when you were reading this'}, {'start': '2697.359', 'end': '2701.440', 'text': 'out to me as we were discussing how we'}, {'start': '2699.200', 'end': '2703.119', 'text': 'would talk about this, my main thought'}, {'start': '2701.440', 'end': '2705.839', 'text': 'was that frankly this puts Westminster'}, {'start': '2703.119', 'end': '2707.760', 'text': 'to shame. Yes. I mean it is a it is a'}, {'start': '2705.839', 'end': '2710.319', 'text': 'much more on the face of it particularly'}, {'start': '2707.760', 'end': '2712.480', 'text': 'for for complex policy issues and in'}, {'start': '2710.319', 'end': '2716.160', 'text': 'issues of conscience like this it seems'}, {'start': '2712.480', 'end': '2718.480', 'text': 'a much more sensible approach both in'}, {'start': '2716.160', 'end': '2721.119', 'text': 'terms of the time the effort taken the'}, {'start': '2718.480', 'end': '2723.040', 'text': 'support that the MSP has in developing'}, {'start': '2721.119', 'end': '2725.119', 'text': 'his bill. So just to run through it I'}, {'start': '2723.040', 'end': '2726.760', 'text': 'mean he published the bill lodged it in'}, {'start': '2725.119', 'end': '2729.040', 'text': 'draft with the parliament in September'}, {'start': '2726.760', 'end': '2731.119', 'text': '2021. There was then a consultation'}, {'start': '2729.040', 'end': '2734.000', 'text': 'period for three months through to'}, {'start': '2731.119', 'end': '2737.119', 'text': 'December and they had 14,000 responses.'}, {'start': '2734.000', 'end': '2739.839', 'text': 'That is a lot by any any standards.'}, {'start': '2737.119', 'end': '2741.200', 'text': 'About nine months later, October 2022,'}, {'start': '2739.839', 'end': '2743.599', 'text': 'he was then given permission to'}, {'start': '2741.200', 'end': '2745.359', 'text': 'introduce the bill to the parliament.'}, {'start': '2743.599', 'end': '2747.280', 'text': "Meanwhile, he'd invited a group of"}, {'start': '2745.359', 'end': '2749.760', 'text': 'people to form what he called a medical'}, {'start': '2747.280', 'end': '2752.240', 'text': 'advisory group to help inform him on the'}, {'start': '2749.760', 'end': '2754.160', 'text': 'bill, which was chaired by an MSP who is'}, {'start': '2752.240', 'end': '2757.440', 'text': 'also a doctor. And there was about sort'}, {'start': '2754.160', 'end': '2760.079', 'text': 'of 10 other professional health experts,'}, {'start': '2757.440', 'end': '2763.280', 'text': 'academic experts, and so on. They'}, {'start': '2760.079', 'end': '2765.359', 'text': 'published a report in December 2022, so'}, {'start': '2763.280', 'end': '2768.240', 'text': 'several months later, which was then'}, {'start': '2765.359', 'end': '2771.359', 'text': 'used to inform the drafting process for'}, {'start': '2768.240', 'end': '2773.640', 'text': 'the bill and the Scottish Parliament has'}, {'start': '2771.359', 'end': '2776.800', 'text': 'what they call a non-government bills'}, {'start': '2773.640', 'end': '2778.400', 'text': 'unit to support members in preparing'}, {'start': '2776.800', 'end': '2780.079', 'text': 'their bills, drafting the accompanying'}, {'start': '2778.400', 'end': '2781.599', 'text': "documents and so on. So, it's kind of"}, {'start': '2780.079', 'end': '2784.720', 'text': 'like there are clarks obviously at'}, {'start': '2781.599', 'end': '2786.079', 'text': 'Westminster who help members draft their'}, {'start': '2784.720', 'end': '2788.400', 'text': "private members bills. It's a bit more"}, {'start': '2786.079', 'end': '2790.520', 'text': "ad hoc. It's a bit more ad hoc. it's not"}, {'start': '2788.400', 'end': '2793.520', 'text': 'necessarily able to draw on some of the'}, {'start': '2790.520', 'end': '2795.040', 'text': 'expertise that an MP might need. You got'}, {'start': '2793.520', 'end': '2797.200', 'text': 'to say if you were sitting down with a'}, {'start': '2795.040', 'end': '2799.119', 'text': 'blank sheet of parchment to draw up a'}, {'start': '2797.200', 'end': '2800.640', 'text': 'legislative process, you would come up'}, {'start': '2799.119', 'end': '2803.359', 'text': "with something like this. You wouldn't"}, {'start': '2800.640', 'end': '2805.200', 'text': 'come up in a thousand years with the'}, {'start': '2803.359', 'end': '2806.800', 'text': 'frankly bizarre system for private'}, {'start': '2805.200', 'end': '2810.000', 'text': 'members bills that has evolved in the'}, {'start': '2806.800', 'end': '2812.839', 'text': 'House of Commons over the centuries. And'}, {'start': '2810.000', 'end': '2816.480', 'text': 'it just looks like a far more sensible,'}, {'start': '2812.839', 'end': '2818.000', 'text': 'deliberative, detailed, engaged way of'}, {'start': '2816.480', 'end': '2820.319', 'text': 'drawing up legislation on a very'}, {'start': '2818.000', 'end': '2822.400', 'text': 'sensitive subject than the process that'}, {'start': '2820.319', 'end': '2824.319', 'text': 'Kim Lebe has been forced to use. I mean,'}, {'start': '2822.400', 'end': '2826.480', 'text': "she didn't even know until the ballot"}, {'start': '2824.319', 'end': '2828.319', 'text': "was drawn that she'd have a chance to do"}, {'start': '2826.480', 'end': '2831.119', 'text': 'this. So, it was all done from a'}, {'start': '2828.319', 'end': '2833.440', 'text': 'standing start. Yeah. And here we are'}, {'start': '2831.119', 'end': '2836.000', 'text': 'now rushing stuff through against all'}, {'start': '2833.440', 'end': '2837.680', 'text': 'kinds of artificial deadlines because it'}, {'start': '2836.000', 'end': '2839.440', 'text': 'all has to be done within the course of'}, {'start': '2837.680', 'end': '2841.440', 'text': 'one parliamentary session, one'}, {'start': '2839.440', 'end': '2843.280', 'text': 'parliamentary year. Yeah. And where'}, {'start': '2841.440', 'end': '2844.720', 'text': "you're limited to the number of days"}, {'start': '2843.280', 'end': '2846.640', 'text': 'that can be set aside to cover these'}, {'start': '2844.720', 'end': '2849.520', 'text': 'bills unless the government decides'}, {'start': '2846.640', 'end': '2851.599', 'text': 'otherwise and and grants more time. MPs'}, {'start': '2849.520', 'end': '2853.599', 'text': 'get very little in terms of resource and'}, {'start': '2851.599', 'end': '2855.760', 'text': "support to do this. It's quite"}, {'start': '2853.599', 'end': '2857.599', 'text': 'difficult, I think, for MPs normally'}, {'start': '2855.760', 'end': '2860.079', 'text': 'bringing forward a private members bill,'}, {'start': '2857.599', 'end': '2862.040', 'text': 'but this is enormous as an issue. You'}, {'start': '2860.079', 'end': '2864.480', 'text': 'know, Scottish Parliament had 14,000'}, {'start': '2862.040', 'end': '2866.079', 'text': 'responses. There was a huge response to'}, {'start': '2864.480', 'end': '2868.720', 'text': 'the consultation by the public bill'}, {'start': '2866.079', 'end': '2870.800', 'text': 'committee at Westminster on this. Kim'}, {'start': '2868.720', 'end': '2873.280', 'text': 'Leita has effectively had to perform the'}, {'start': '2870.800', 'end': '2874.960', 'text': 'role of a government minister, dealing'}, {'start': '2873.280', 'end': '2876.960', 'text': 'with the press, dealing with the'}, {'start': '2874.960', 'end': '2878.480', 'text': 'amendments, dealing with the drafting,'}, {'start': '2876.960', 'end': '2881.640', 'text': 'dealing with the sort of policy and'}, {'start': '2878.480', 'end': '2884.480', 'text': 'political engagement, and all with her'}, {'start': '2881.640', 'end': '2886.000', 'text': 'normal administrative and and political'}, {'start': '2884.480', 'end': '2887.760', 'text': 'research support that she has in her'}, {'start': '2886.000', 'end': '2889.200', 'text': 'office. She may have secured some'}, {'start': '2887.760', 'end': '2891.119', 'text': 'support and resources from some of the'}, {'start': '2889.200', 'end': '2892.720', 'text': 'campaign groups elsewhere, as Danny'}, {'start': '2891.119', 'end': '2894.160', 'text': "Krueger acknowledged, he'd been able to"}, {'start': '2892.720', 'end': '2895.839', 'text': 'do a little bit on the other side of the'}, {'start': '2894.160', 'end': '2897.520', 'text': 'debate. But I mean, as he explained in'}, {'start': '2895.839', 'end': '2899.520', 'text': 'the the special episode we had with with'}, {'start': '2897.520', 'end': '2901.440', 'text': "him a few weeks ago, it's been an"}, {'start': '2899.520', 'end': '2904.319', 'text': 'enormous amount of work and and there'}, {'start': '2901.440', 'end': '2906.559', 'text': "there isn't that resourcing really to"}, {'start': '2904.319', 'end': '2909.280', 'text': 'support the members to do this on on'}, {'start': '2906.559', 'end': '2910.800', 'text': 'this scale. Yeah, I it does make me'}, {'start': '2909.280', 'end': '2912.400', 'text': 'think that one of the things that'}, {'start': '2910.800', 'end': '2914.160', 'text': 'perhaps the procedure committee could'}, {'start': '2912.400', 'end': '2916.559', 'text': 'do, perhaps the modernization committee'}, {'start': '2914.160', 'end': '2918.079', 'text': 'could do is take an urgent look at the'}, {'start': '2916.559', 'end': '2919.359', 'text': 'way the private members bill process'}, {'start': '2918.079', 'end': '2920.319', 'text': 'works and see if it can come up with'}, {'start': '2919.359', 'end': '2922.160', 'text': 'something that frankly is a bit more'}, {'start': '2920.319', 'end': '2924.359', 'text': 'rational. Yeah. I mean, one of the'}, {'start': '2922.160', 'end': '2926.559', 'text': 'things clearly is that if you go into a'}, {'start': '2924.359', 'end': '2928.800', 'text': 'ballot, which takes place at the start'}, {'start': '2926.559', 'end': '2930.559', 'text': 'of a session, and then just a few weeks'}, {'start': '2928.800', 'end': '2933.359', 'text': "later, you've got to bring forward the"}, {'start': '2930.559', 'end': '2935.119', 'text': 'name and title of your bill, and then if'}, {'start': '2933.359', 'end': '2936.240', 'text': "you're high in the ballot, just a few"}, {'start': '2935.119', 'end': '2938.480', 'text': "weeks later, you've actually got to"}, {'start': '2936.240', 'end': '2940.720', 'text': 'present your bill for second reading,'}, {'start': '2938.480', 'end': '2942.559', 'text': 'you can go into that ballot with no'}, {'start': '2940.720', 'end': '2944.480', 'text': 'requirement to set out what bill it is'}, {'start': '2942.559', 'end': '2946.319', 'text': 'that you intend to bring forward. Now,'}, {'start': '2944.480', 'end': '2948.079', 'text': 'you know, Kim Lea had indicated that she'}, {'start': '2946.319', 'end': '2950.480', 'text': 'was minded to to pick up the assistant'}, {'start': '2948.079', 'end': '2951.839', 'text': "dying issue, and if she hadn't, one of"}, {'start': '2950.480', 'end': '2954.160', 'text': 'the other MPs in the ballot had'}, {'start': '2951.839', 'end': '2955.599', 'text': 'indicated they would. But right from the'}, {'start': '2954.160', 'end': '2957.680', 'text': 'start, the pressure is on in terms of'}, {'start': '2955.599', 'end': '2960.000', 'text': 'the time scales to get on with it. And I'}, {'start': '2957.680', 'end': '2963.200', 'text': 'do think if you are going to have time'}, {'start': '2960.000', 'end': '2964.960', 'text': "in the chamber for legislation, it's an"}, {'start': '2963.200', 'end': '2966.640', 'text': "incredibly important resource. You're"}, {'start': '2964.960', 'end': '2967.760', 'text': "engaged in something that's extremely"}, {'start': '2966.640', 'end': '2970.319', 'text': "important, that's going to affect"}, {'start': '2967.760', 'end': '2972.079', 'text': 'citizens across the country. Should you'}, {'start': '2970.319', 'end': '2974.240', 'text': 'really be able to do it without having'}, {'start': '2972.079', 'end': '2976.960', 'text': 'given at least an indication of what it'}, {'start': '2974.240', 'end': '2979.040', 'text': 'is, you want to use that time for before'}, {'start': '2976.960', 'end': '2981.200', 'text': 'you enter the ballot. Yeah, it is a'}, {'start': '2979.040', 'end': '2982.880', 'text': "quite, as we've often remarked in our"}, {'start': '2981.200', 'end': '2985.200', 'text': 'various special podcasts about this, a'}, {'start': '2982.880', 'end': '2986.720', 'text': 'quite bizarre way of doing business and'}, {'start': '2985.200', 'end': '2988.880', 'text': 'one that really does look right for'}, {'start': '2986.720', 'end': '2989.920', 'text': 'reform. So, uh, with that, Ruth, should'}, {'start': '2988.880', 'end': '2991.200', 'text': 'we take another break? Yeah. Well, I'}, {'start': '2989.920', 'end': '2992.480', 'text': 'think the modernization committee will'}, {'start': '2991.200', 'end': '2993.760', 'text': 'indeed probably have to look at it'}, {'start': '2992.480', 'end': '2995.520', 'text': 'because I think that I get the sense'}, {'start': '2993.760', 'end': '2997.040', 'text': 'quite a number of MPs are are concerned'}, {'start': '2995.520', 'end': '2999.040', 'text': "about it. So yes, let's take a break,"}, {'start': '2997.040', 'end': '3001.839', 'text': 'Mark, and then uh we come back and I I'}, {'start': '2999.040', 'end': '3005.250', 'text': 'think you want to discuss the new black'}, {'start': '3001.839', 'end': '3007.040', 'text': 'rod. I do indeed. See you in a minute.'}, {'start': '3005.250', 'end': '3009.839', 'text': '[Music]'}, {'start': '3007.040', 'end': '3011.520', 'text': 'So, welcome back. And uh Mark, the House'}, {'start': '3009.839', 'end': '3014.160', 'text': 'of Lords has announced that there is to'}, {'start': '3011.520', 'end': '3016.480', 'text': 'be a new gentleman usher of the Black'}, {'start': '3014.160', 'end': '3018.000', 'text': 'Rod. The current occupant is actually'}, {'start': '3016.480', 'end': '3020.160', 'text': 'Lady Usher of the Black Rod, Sarah'}, {'start': '3018.000', 'end': '3023.280', 'text': "Clark, but she's stepping down this"}, {'start': '3020.160', 'end': '3025.440', 'text': 'summer and will be replaced by Ed Davis,'}, {'start': '3023.280', 'end': '3027.520', 'text': "it's been announced, who's a gentleman"}, {'start': '3025.440', 'end': '3029.760', 'text': 'who a 35 year career in the Royal'}, {'start': '3027.520', 'end': '3031.280', 'text': 'Marines, former governor of Gibralar,'}, {'start': '3029.760', 'end': '3033.440', 'text': "and he's going to be taking over this"}, {'start': '3031.280', 'end': '3036.000', 'text': 'historic role, has a range of'}, {'start': '3033.440', 'end': '3037.280', 'text': 'administrative and ceremonial duties,'}, {'start': '3036.000', 'end': '3038.720', 'text': 'formerly appointed actually by the'}, {'start': '3037.280', 'end': '3040.559', 'text': 'crown. Well, this this is because'}, {'start': '3038.720', 'end': '3042.160', 'text': 'actually Black Roll is a royal official.'}, {'start': '3040.559', 'end': '3043.920', 'text': 'This reflects the fact that the palace'}, {'start': '3042.160', 'end': '3047.040', 'text': 'of Westminster is, as the name suggests,'}, {'start': '3043.920', 'end': '3050.720', 'text': 'a royal palace. And Black Rod is'}, {'start': '3047.040', 'end': '3052.400', 'text': 'formally responsible for a lot of uh the'}, {'start': '3050.720', 'end': '3055.040', 'text': 'things that go on in the House of Lords.'}, {'start': '3052.400', 'end': '3056.800', 'text': "He'll be there when they introduce a new"}, {'start': '3055.040', 'end': '3059.200', 'text': 'pier, for example, not necessarily a new'}, {'start': '3056.800', 'end': '3062.000', 'text': "bishop, but a new pier. In fact, he'd be"}, {'start': '3059.200', 'end': '3064.240', 'text': 'in charge of arresting any pier who was'}, {'start': '3062.000', 'end': '3066.640', 'text': 'accused of a breach of privilege, for'}, {'start': '3064.240', 'end': '3068.640', 'text': 'example. And most famously, of course,'}, {'start': '3066.640', 'end': '3070.640', 'text': 'Black Rod is the person who can be seen'}, {'start': '3068.640', 'end': '3073.359', 'text': 'at the state opening of Parliament,'}, {'start': '3070.640', 'end': '3075.680', 'text': 'marching from the House of Lords into'}, {'start': '3073.359', 'end': '3078.079', 'text': 'the House of Commons to summon MPs to'}, {'start': '3075.680', 'end': '3079.599', 'text': "hear the kings or the queen's speech."}, {'start': '3078.079', 'end': '3082.319', 'text': 'Now, they do that famous ritual where'}, {'start': '3079.599', 'end': '3083.839', 'text': 'they wrap on the door with their ebony'}, {'start': '3082.319', 'end': '3086.559', 'text': 'staff of office from which the title'}, {'start': '3083.839', 'end': '3088.559', 'text': 'black rod comes. The king desires this'}, {'start': '3086.559', 'end': '3090.480', 'text': 'honorable house, bows in the direction'}, {'start': '3088.559', 'end': '3092.240', 'text': 'of each side of the house to attend him'}, {'start': '3090.480', 'end': '3094.240', 'text': 'forth with in the house appears. And'}, {'start': '3092.240', 'end': '3095.920', 'text': 'then off they all march. So, they slam'}, {'start': '3094.240', 'end': '3097.440', 'text': "the door in his face initially, don't"}, {'start': '3095.920', 'end': '3099.520', 'text': "they? Oh, yes. Well, that's all summon"}, {'start': '3097.440', 'end': '3101.119', 'text': 'the Commons independence. This is all'}, {'start': '3099.520', 'end': '3102.559', 'text': 'all dating back to Charles the first'}, {'start': '3101.119', 'end': '3105.200', 'text': 'trying to get into the House of Commons'}, {'start': '3102.559', 'end': '3107.200', 'text': "to arrest the five members. So, there's"}, {'start': '3105.200', 'end': '3110.319', 'text': 'an awful lot around this. But Black Rod'}, {'start': '3107.200', 'end': '3112.559', 'text': 'is also a key figure in organizing the'}, {'start': '3110.319', 'end': '3114.960', 'text': 'security of the Palace of Westminster.'}, {'start': '3112.559', 'end': '3117.280', 'text': 'They tend to be black rods over the'}, {'start': '3114.960', 'end': '3119.119', 'text': 'years. fairly senior former military'}, {'start': '3117.280', 'end': '3121.119', 'text': 'officers, air vice marshall this,'}, {'start': '3119.119', 'end': '3123.920', 'text': 'general that, left tenant general such'}, {'start': '3121.119', 'end': '3125.359', 'text': 'and such, admiral so and so. So over the'}, {'start': '3123.920', 'end': '3128.240', 'text': 'years actually Sarah Clark was quite'}, {'start': '3125.359', 'end': '3130.400', 'text': "unusual in the sense that uh she hadn't"}, {'start': '3128.240', 'end': '3132.000', 'text': 'been a military officer. Her prime'}, {'start': '3130.400', 'end': '3133.200', 'text': 'career activity before that was'}, {'start': '3132.000', 'end': '3134.960', 'text': 'organizing the Wimbledon tennis'}, {'start': '3133.200', 'end': '3136.640', 'text': 'tournament. She was the the first woman'}, {'start': '3134.960', 'end': '3138.800', 'text': 'to organize a grand slam tennis'}, {'start': '3136.640', 'end': '3140.720', 'text': 'tournament like I ever but the first'}, {'start': '3138.800', 'end': '3142.319', 'text': "lady black rod. So that's quite correct"}, {'start': '3140.720', 'end': '3143.760', 'text': 'and she had quite a test because of'}, {'start': '3142.319', 'end': '3146.720', 'text': 'course she was the one who had to'}, {'start': '3143.760', 'end': '3148.480', 'text': 'orchestrate the Westminster end of the'}, {'start': '3146.720', 'end': '3150.480', 'text': 'various ceremonials around the death of'}, {'start': '3148.480', 'end': '3152.000', 'text': 'the late queen. So she would have been'}, {'start': '3150.480', 'end': '3153.599', 'text': 'the person in charge of the arrangements'}, {'start': '3152.000', 'end': '3156.160', 'text': 'for the lying in state in Westminster'}, {'start': '3153.599', 'end': '3158.240', 'text': "Hall for example. It's an extremely"}, {'start': '3156.160', 'end': '3160.880', 'text': "significant role. Wasn't she also in"}, {'start': '3158.240', 'end': '3163.760', 'text': 'place when uh the progation of'}, {'start': '3160.880', 'end': '3165.520', 'text': 'parliament took place in 2019 when she'}, {'start': '3163.760', 'end': '3167.200', 'text': 'came into the chamber and it was well'}, {'start': '3165.520', 'end': '3168.400', 'text': 'you and I were commentating that frosty'}, {'start': '3167.200', 'end': '3170.079', 'text': 'reception. Yes. You and I were'}, {'start': '3168.400', 'end': '3171.520', 'text': "commentating BBC Parliament, weren't we?"}, {'start': '3170.079', 'end': '3174.960', 'text': "And we weren't entirely sure what John"}, {'start': '3171.520', 'end': '3176.800', 'text': "Burko's response was going to be and she"}, {'start': '3174.960', 'end': '3178.880', 'text': 'looked slightly nonplusted at certain'}, {'start': '3176.800', 'end': '3180.000', 'text': 'points. I felt terribly sorry for her.'}, {'start': '3178.880', 'end': '3182.559', 'text': 'Incredibly important role,'}, {'start': '3180.000', 'end': '3185.280', 'text': "administrative, ceremonial. Mhm. It's"}, {'start': '3182.559', 'end': '3188.559', 'text': 'actually one of those weird eruptions of'}, {'start': '3185.280', 'end': '3190.400', 'text': 'the old feudal constitution. Yeah. Into'}, {'start': '3188.559', 'end': '3191.920', 'text': 'parliamentary business today. I was'}, {'start': '3190.400', 'end': '3193.920', 'text': 'looking at the lists of this earlier on.'}, {'start': '3191.920', 'end': '3195.760', 'text': 'There are actually several rods. Not'}, {'start': '3193.920', 'end': '3198.000', 'text': 'only is there Black Rod who is the'}, {'start': '3195.760', 'end': '3200.160', 'text': 'gentleman usher who who works to the'}, {'start': '3198.000', 'end': '3202.640', 'text': "order of the garter, there's also green"}, {'start': '3200.160', 'end': '3205.200', 'text': 'rod who is the usher for the order of'}, {'start': '3202.640', 'end': '3207.119', 'text': "the thistle. There is scarlet rod who's"}, {'start': '3205.200', 'end': '3209.040', 'text': 'the usher for the order of the bath.'}, {'start': '3207.119', 'end': '3210.960', 'text': "There is purple rod who's usher for the"}, {'start': '3209.040', 'end': '3213.119', 'text': 'order of the British Empire. So all'}, {'start': '3210.960', 'end': '3215.599', 'text': 'these other figures involved in the'}, {'start': '3213.119', 'end': '3218.800', 'text': 'system. The post of black rod was first'}, {'start': '3215.599', 'end': '3221.240', 'text': 'noted in the records in 1350 when it was'}, {'start': '3218.800', 'end': '3224.319', 'text': 'held by the impressively named Walter'}, {'start': '3221.240', 'end': '3225.760', 'text': 'White and uh it has gone on in almost'}, {'start': '3224.319', 'end': '3227.839', 'text': 'unbroken line. I think there was a bit'}, {'start': '3225.760', 'end': '3230.400', 'text': 'of a break during the uh civil war'}, {'start': '3227.839', 'end': '3232.400', 'text': "republican period. It's gone on unbroken"}, {'start': '3230.400', 'end': '3234.960', 'text': 'pretty much since then. Well, you know'}, {'start': '3232.400', 'end': '3236.400', 'text': 'my thoughts on flurry.'}, {'start': '3234.960', 'end': '3238.160', 'text': 'Well, there are plenty of these things'}, {'start': '3236.400', 'end': '3240.800', 'text': "there. There's his deputy, incidentally,"}, {'start': '3238.160', 'end': '3242.160', 'text': 'is the yman usher. So, the gentleman'}, {'start': '3240.800', 'end': '3243.520', 'text': 'usher should not be confused with the'}, {'start': '3242.160', 'end': '3246.040', 'text': 'yman usher. And of course at the common'}, {'start': '3243.520', 'end': '3248.079', 'text': 'end of course affairs there there is the'}, {'start': '3246.040', 'end': '3250.559', 'text': "sergeant-at-arms who's some way down the"}, {'start': '3248.079', 'end': '3252.480', 'text': 'pecking order slightly simpler of'}, {'start': '3250.559', 'end': '3254.559', 'text': 'Westminster officials. And of course'}, {'start': '3252.480', 'end': '3256.640', 'text': 'Black Rod also has to wear well'}, {'start': '3254.559', 'end': '3259.440', 'text': 'depending upon your point of view a'}, {'start': '3256.640', 'end': '3263.000', 'text': 'fetching uniform or a complete nonsense'}, {'start': '3259.440', 'end': '3265.359', 'text': 'black shoes buckles breaches coat silk'}, {'start': '3263.000', 'end': '3266.880', 'text': 'stockings. Not my cup of tea I have to'}, {'start': '3265.359', 'end': '3269.040', 'text': "say. And they've got and they've got to"}, {'start': '3266.880', 'end': '3271.119', 'text': 'be prepared to be occasionally in the'}, {'start': '3269.040', 'end': '3273.720', 'text': 'political firing line as Sarah Clark was'}, {'start': '3271.119', 'end': '3276.000', 'text': 'as you described over the reversed'}, {'start': '3273.720', 'end': '3278.079', 'text': 'corrugation of Parliament during the'}, {'start': '3276.000', 'end': '3279.760', 'text': 'Brexit years. But if you look back a'}, {'start': '3278.079', 'end': '3282.240', 'text': 'little further, the death of the Queen'}, {'start': '3279.760', 'end': '3284.240', 'text': 'Mother, which is 20 plus years ago,'}, {'start': '3282.240', 'end': '3286.960', 'text': 'there was an enormous controversy about'}, {'start': '3284.240', 'end': '3288.680', 'text': 'whether Tony Blair as prime minister had'}, {'start': '3286.960', 'end': '3291.280', 'text': 'tried to big up his'}, {'start': '3288.680', 'end': '3293.040', 'text': 'role in in the ceremonial around the'}, {'start': '3291.280', 'end': '3295.359', 'text': 'death of late Queen Elizabeth, the Queen'}, {'start': '3293.040', 'end': '3297.599', 'text': 'Mother, and had quite a clash with the'}, {'start': '3295.359', 'end': '3300.240', 'text': 'then Black Rod over whether or not he'}, {'start': '3297.599', 'end': '3302.720', 'text': 'had uh tried to get procedures changed'}, {'start': '3300.240', 'end': '3304.640', 'text': 'so that he could take a more prominent'}, {'start': '3302.720', 'end': '3306.720', 'text': 'position in the proceedings. And there'}, {'start': '3304.640', 'end': '3308.960', 'text': 'were enormous stories in the spectator.'}, {'start': '3306.720', 'end': '3310.880', 'text': 'The journalist Peter Oorn was writing'}, {'start': '3308.960', 'end': '3312.559', 'text': 'these thunderous pieces about how it was'}, {'start': '3310.880', 'end': '3314.480', 'text': 'ridiculous that Blair was trying to big'}, {'start': '3312.559', 'end': '3315.920', 'text': 'himself up in this way. And Downing'}, {'start': '3314.480', 'end': '3317.599', 'text': 'Street actually complained about the'}, {'start': '3315.920', 'end': '3319.040', 'text': 'newspaper coverage and eventually'}, {'start': '3317.599', 'end': '3321.040', 'text': 'withdrew the complaint before it went'}, {'start': '3319.040', 'end': '3322.960', 'text': 'off to the newspaper regulator. But uh'}, {'start': '3321.040', 'end': '3325.280', 'text': 'it all got very very frosty and very'}, {'start': '3322.960', 'end': '3327.440', 'text': 'very nasty and the then Black Rod was at'}, {'start': '3325.280', 'end': '3328.640', 'text': 'the center of all that. So this can be a'}, {'start': '3327.440', 'end': '3330.240', 'text': 'position where you have to be able to'}, {'start': '3328.640', 'end': '3331.839', 'text': 'sort of handle yourself in the political'}, {'start': '3330.240', 'end': '3334.079', 'text': 'hurly burly as well as being something'}, {'start': '3331.839', 'end': '3336.079', 'text': "that's purely ceremonial. Yeah. Well,"}, {'start': '3334.079', 'end': '3338.559', 'text': 'good luck to Ed Davis when he starts'}, {'start': '3336.079', 'end': '3340.400', 'text': "this summer and we'll see how he does."}, {'start': '3338.559', 'end': '3342.000', 'text': "Perhaps try and get him on the pod. He's"}, {'start': '3340.400', 'end': '3343.359', 'text': 'been in post a few months. Give him'}, {'start': '3342.000', 'end': '3345.440', 'text': "Mark's for artistic impression and"}, {'start': '3343.359', 'end': '3346.880', 'text': 'technical merit. The next state opening.'}, {'start': '3345.440', 'end': '3348.480', 'text': 'You never know, we might well be in'}, {'start': '3346.880', 'end': '3350.559', 'text': 'place for the next state opening king'}, {'start': '3348.480', 'end': '3352.480', 'text': 'speech. Well, Mark, shall we turn to'}, {'start': '3350.559', 'end': '3353.839', 'text': "listeners questions? We've had a few."}, {'start': '3352.480', 'end': '3355.760', 'text': 'This is going to be quite short though'}, {'start': '3353.839', 'end': '3358.000', 'text': "because you can say they're quite techy"}, {'start': '3355.760', 'end': '3359.520', 'text': "procedural questions. Let's put it this"}, {'start': '3358.000', 'end': '3361.200', 'text': "way. I don't think Alistister and Rory"}, {'start': '3359.520', 'end': '3364.559', 'text': 'on the rest is politics get questions'}, {'start': '3361.200', 'end': '3366.880', 'text': 'like these. So, thank you to Gabriel who'}, {'start': '3364.559', 'end': '3368.559', 'text': 'sent a question in about we were talking'}, {'start': '3366.880', 'end': '3371.599', 'text': 'last week on the podcast about um'}, {'start': '3368.559', 'end': '3373.280', 'text': "Lindseay Hoy's role as speaker and some"}, {'start': '3371.599', 'end': '3375.799', 'text': 'questions being asked about his'}, {'start': '3373.280', 'end': '3378.240', 'text': 'partiality or not towards Kia Starmer at'}, {'start': '3375.799', 'end': '3380.240', 'text': "PMQ's and we were talking about the"}, {'start': '3378.240', 'end': '3383.520', 'text': 'process for electing the and choosing'}, {'start': '3380.240', 'end': '3384.720', 'text': 'the next speaker and uh Gabriel has come'}, {'start': '3383.520', 'end': '3386.160', 'text': 'back and said you know if you look at'}, {'start': '3384.720', 'end': '3388.160', 'text': 'the standing orders it says that at'}, {'start': '3386.160', 'end': '3390.000', 'text': 'least one man and one woman shall be'}, {'start': '3388.160', 'end': '3392.079', 'text': 'elected across the four posts of speaker'}, {'start': '3390.000', 'end': '3394.079', 'text': 'and deputy speakers and given that'}, {'start': '3392.079', 'end': '3395.440', 'text': "There's three women in post as the"}, {'start': '3394.079', 'end': '3397.119', 'text': 'deputies at the moment. Does that mean'}, {'start': '3395.440', 'end': '3399.200', 'text': 'there can only be a choice of a male'}, {'start': '3397.119', 'end': '3400.799', 'text': 'candidate which is an interesting'}, {'start': '3399.200', 'end': '3402.640', 'text': "procedural question which we're trying"}, {'start': '3400.799', 'end': '3404.480', 'text': 'to get our heads around. So Gabriel, I'}, {'start': '3402.640', 'end': '3406.559', 'text': "don't think we can provide you with an"}, {'start': '3404.480', 'end': '3409.440', 'text': 'answer immediately on this. We are'}, {'start': '3406.559', 'end': '3411.839', 'text': 'consulting our procedural gurus as to'}, {'start': '3409.440', 'end': '3413.760', 'text': 'whether or not it would apply in the the'}, {'start': '3411.839', 'end': '3415.359', 'text': 'situation of the election of the of the'}, {'start': '3413.760', 'end': '3416.880', 'text': 'next speaker. I suspect if the ruling'}, {'start': '3415.359', 'end': '3418.559', 'text': "was that it did, they'd quickly change"}, {'start': '3416.880', 'end': '3420.160', 'text': 'the rules. Although notwithstanding'}, {'start': '3418.559', 'end': '3422.160', 'text': "standing order, whatever it is, we'll do"}, {'start': '3420.160', 'end': '3423.839', 'text': 'this differently. would get whizzed'}, {'start': '3422.160', 'end': '3425.280', 'text': "through. Yeah. So, we're looking at the"}, {'start': '3423.839', 'end': '3427.200', 'text': 'complexities around this particular'}, {'start': '3425.280', 'end': '3428.720', 'text': 'standing order, but it it clearly that'}, {'start': '3427.200', 'end': '3430.400', 'text': 'would not have been the intention at the'}, {'start': '3428.720', 'end': '3432.480', 'text': 'time that they drafted the standing'}, {'start': '3430.400', 'end': '3434.559', 'text': 'order, but in practical terms on a plain'}, {'start': '3432.480', 'end': '3436.079', 'text': 'reading, it might be problematic. So,'}, {'start': '3434.559', 'end': '3437.920', 'text': "we're looking into that, Gabriel, and we"}, {'start': '3436.079', 'end': '3439.680', 'text': 'will come back with a more wholesome'}, {'start': '3437.920', 'end': '3441.119', 'text': 'response in due course. And in the'}, {'start': '3439.680', 'end': '3445.000', 'text': 'meantime, how nice it is to get a'}, {'start': '3441.119', 'end': '3445.000', 'text': 'question from a practicing archangel.'}, {'start': '3446.079', 'end': '3450.480', 'text': "Oh dear. And then we've had another"}, {'start': '3448.559', 'end': '3452.000', 'text': "question in from well they're anonymous"}, {'start': '3450.480', 'end': '3454.400', 'text': "so I don't know whether they're an angel"}, {'start': '3452.000', 'end': '3456.079', 'text': "or or the devil. I don't know. This is"}, {'start': '3454.400', 'end': '3457.920', 'text': "about something that's happened in this"}, {'start': '3456.079', 'end': '3460.480', 'text': 'this week in the house in relation to'}, {'start': '3457.920', 'end': '3461.839', 'text': 'the Royal Albert Hall bill. So this is a'}, {'start': '3460.480', 'end': '3463.119', 'text': "private legislation. Again we've talked"}, {'start': '3461.839', 'end': '3465.280', 'text': 'about it a little bit on the podcast'}, {'start': '3463.119', 'end': '3467.119', 'text': 'before. The Royal Albert Hall is'}, {'start': '3465.280', 'end': '3469.040', 'text': 'bringing forward this legislation to'}, {'start': '3467.119', 'end': '3471.040', 'text': 'change its its governance arrangements.'}, {'start': '3469.040', 'end': '3472.799', 'text': "And it's hit some problems in the House"}, {'start': '3471.040', 'end': '3474.799', 'text': 'of Lords when it went through in that'}, {'start': '3472.799', 'end': '3476.880', 'text': 'house initially because there was a very'}, {'start': '3474.799', 'end': '3478.720', 'text': 'rare amendment against the wishes of the'}, {'start': '3476.880', 'end': '3480.799', 'text': 'Royal Albert Hall at third reading to'}, {'start': '3478.720', 'end': '3482.319', 'text': 'deal with some governance issues and now'}, {'start': '3480.799', 'end': '3484.240', 'text': "it's hit a bit of turbulence in the"}, {'start': '3482.319', 'end': '3486.799', 'text': 'Commons because on Tuesday this week,'}, {'start': '3484.240', 'end': '3489.280', 'text': 'Sir Christopher Chop objected to the'}, {'start': '3486.799', 'end': '3490.640', 'text': 'second reading of the bill and uh our'}, {'start': '3489.280', 'end': '3492.880', 'text': 'questioner asked when was the last time'}, {'start': '3490.640', 'end': '3495.520', 'text': 'an MP opposed a private bill and how'}, {'start': '3492.880', 'end': '3496.799', 'text': "likely is it to derail a bill's passage?"}, {'start': '3495.520', 'end': '3498.559', 'text': 'Well, this is going to take a little bit'}, {'start': '3496.799', 'end': '3500.000', 'text': 'of explanation through private bill'}, {'start': '3498.559', 'end': '3502.079', 'text': 'procedure, which is different to that'}, {'start': '3500.000', 'end': '3504.240', 'text': "for government bills, and we're also"}, {'start': '3502.079', 'end': '3505.839', 'text': 'looking into how often private bills'}, {'start': '3504.240', 'end': '3508.319', 'text': "have been opposed. There's some quite"}, {'start': '3505.839', 'end': '3509.440', 'text': 'technical arrangements in in play. So,'}, {'start': '3508.319', 'end': '3511.599', 'text': "we're trying to find out what will"}, {'start': '3509.440', 'end': '3513.200', 'text': 'happen with the bill now. And again,'}, {'start': '3511.599', 'end': '3514.880', 'text': "we'll come back uh once we've got a bit"}, {'start': '3513.200', 'end': '3517.119', 'text': 'more information on that and report back'}, {'start': '3514.880', 'end': '3518.559', 'text': 'to listeners. As I say, very techy'}, {'start': '3517.119', 'end': '3519.760', 'text': "questions this week. I'm one of these"}, {'start': '3518.559', 'end': '3521.520', 'text': 'people who actually defends Sir'}, {'start': '3519.760', 'end': '3523.839', 'text': 'Christopher Chop on some of these things'}, {'start': '3521.520', 'end': '3525.760', 'text': 'in the sense that he takes the view that'}, {'start': '3523.839', 'end': '3527.839', 'text': "you shouldn't just constantly be passing"}, {'start': '3525.760', 'end': '3529.680', 'text': 'legislation on the nod and there really'}, {'start': '3527.839', 'end': '3531.680', 'text': 'ought to be debates especially where'}, {'start': '3529.680', 'end': '3533.200', 'text': 'there is an element of controversy and'}, {'start': '3531.680', 'end': '3535.440', 'text': "that doesn't seem to be an unreasonable"}, {'start': '3533.200', 'end': '3537.599', 'text': 'position for a parliamentarian to take.'}, {'start': '3535.440', 'end': '3539.359', 'text': 'No. And and you know as you say he he'}, {'start': '3537.599', 'end': '3541.280', 'text': 'takes this view very much of private'}, {'start': '3539.359', 'end': '3543.760', 'text': 'members bills that he he he will be'}, {'start': '3541.280', 'end': '3545.599', 'text': 'objecting to them. So stand by when uh'}, {'start': '3543.760', 'end': '3546.960', 'text': 'the assisted dying bill starts to make'}, {'start': '3545.599', 'end': '3548.400', 'text': 'progress and suddenly all these other'}, {'start': '3546.960', 'end': '3550.319', 'text': 'private members bills are trying to make'}, {'start': '3548.400', 'end': '3552.160', 'text': 'some progress because they may well find'}, {'start': '3550.319', 'end': '3553.760', 'text': 'Christopher Chop objecting to them not'}, {'start': '3552.160', 'end': '3555.280', 'text': 'on questions about the content of the'}, {'start': '3553.760', 'end': '3556.799', 'text': "bill but just the fact that they're not"}, {'start': '3555.280', 'end': '3558.720', 'text': 'going to get the kind of scrutiny that'}, {'start': '3556.799', 'end': '3560.799', 'text': 'he quite rightly thinks that they should'}, {'start': '3558.720', 'end': '3563.440', 'text': "have. And at the moment there's a a"}, {'start': '3560.799', 'end': '3565.839', 'text': 'motion now on the uh business papers of'}, {'start': '3563.440', 'end': '3568.960', 'text': "the house that he's moving that the bill"}, {'start': '3565.839', 'end': '3570.480', 'text': 'be read a second time in six months for'}, {'start': '3568.960', 'end': '3571.920', 'text': 'the Royal Albert Hall bill. trying to'}, {'start': '3570.480', 'end': '3573.760', 'text': "delay it, but that's a sort of normal"}, {'start': '3571.920', 'end': '3576.119', 'text': 'motion that you get for private bills,'}, {'start': '3573.760', 'end': '3578.400', 'text': "which we're digging into. So, he's"}, {'start': '3576.119', 'end': '3580.160', 'text': 'clearly decided, yes, that this bill'}, {'start': '3578.400', 'end': '3582.000', 'text': 'needs a bit more scrutiny as well. Well,'}, {'start': '3580.160', 'end': '3584.319', 'text': "we'll report back when we've figured out"}, {'start': '3582.000', 'end': '3586.400', 'text': 'more of the intricacies of of both of'}, {'start': '3584.319', 'end': '3587.599', 'text': 'those questions in due course, but'}, {'start': '3586.400', 'end': '3588.960', 'text': "wouldn't like you listeners to think"}, {'start': '3587.599', 'end': '3590.480', 'text': 'that we were ignoring questions that'}, {'start': '3588.960', 'end': '3592.000', 'text': "have been put down. Sometimes it's just"}, {'start': '3590.480', 'end': '3594.319', 'text': 'that they do take a bit of research to'}, {'start': '3592.000', 'end': '3596.000', 'text': 'find uh workable answers. Yes, they do'}, {'start': '3594.319', 'end': '3597.440', 'text': 'sometimes. So, yeah, listeners, if'}, {'start': '3596.000', 'end': '3600.160', 'text': "you've got other questions, you send"}, {'start': '3597.440', 'end': '3601.599', 'text': 'them in. The link is in our show notes'}, {'start': '3600.160', 'end': '3604.160', 'text': 'which you can find on your podcast app'}, {'start': '3601.599', 'end': '3605.839', 'text': 'for this episode or you can uh find the'}, {'start': '3604.160', 'end': '3607.720', 'text': 'link through the podcast page on our'}, {'start': '3605.839', 'end': '3609.359', 'text': 'website at'}, {'start': '3607.720', 'end': '3612.079', 'text': 'hensarsocciety.org.uk or just send them'}, {'start': '3609.359', 'end': '3614.000', 'text': 'in via social media handsocciety on onx'}, {'start': '3612.079', 'end': '3616.079', 'text': "and we're also on blue sky. So send"}, {'start': '3614.000', 'end': '3617.680', 'text': "those in and uh we'll look into the"}, {'start': '3616.079', 'end': '3619.440', 'text': "answers for you. And I think that's"}, {'start': '3617.680', 'end': '3621.440', 'text': 'probably about all for this episode'}, {'start': '3619.440', 'end': '3623.440', 'text': "Ruth. So for now goodbye. We'll be back"}, {'start': '3621.440', 'end': '3625.119', 'text': 'next week with much more exciting'}, {'start': '3623.440', 'end': '3626.720', 'text': 'parliamentary action. We will. But just'}, {'start': '3625.119', 'end': '3628.720', 'text': 'a quick reminder to listeners before we'}, {'start': '3626.720', 'end': '3631.040', 'text': 'go, please do fill in that listener'}, {'start': '3628.720', 'end': '3633.440', 'text': "survey that's also in the show notes. Uh"}, {'start': '3631.040', 'end': '3634.799', 'text': 'really helps for us to find out what you'}, {'start': '3633.440', 'end': '3637.359', 'text': "like about the podcast, what you don't,"}, {'start': '3634.799', 'end': '3639.119', 'text': 'and uh will help us develop and grow the'}, {'start': '3637.359', 'end': '3640.240', 'text': 'podcast audience in the future. So if'}, {'start': '3639.119', 'end': '3642.480', 'text': 'you could do that, we would be'}, {'start': '3640.240', 'end': '3643.860', 'text': 'incredibly grateful. See you next week.'}, {'start': '3642.480', 'end': '3645.520', 'text': 'Bye-bye.'}, {'start': '3643.860', 'end': '3646.960', 'text': '[Music]'}, {'start': '3645.520', 'end': '3648.559', 'text': 'Parliament Matters is produced by the'}, {'start': '3646.960', 'end': '3650.319', 'text': 'Hansard Society and supported by the'}, {'start': '3648.559', 'end': '3651.480', 'text': 'Joseph Roundtree Charitable Trust. For'}, {'start': '3650.319', 'end': '3654.079', 'text': 'more information, visit'}, {'start': '3651.480', 'end': '3656.720', 'text': 'hansardsocciety.org.uk/pm UK/PM or find'}, {'start': '3654.079', 'end': '3659.800', 'text': 'us on social media at Hansad Society.'}, {'start': '3656.720', 'end': '3659.800', 'text': '[Music]'}]