Zhuangzi vs Laozi - Crazy Wisdom or Elder Sage
Energy Arts
[{'start': '10.610', 'end': '11.378', 'text': 'Hi, everyone.'}, {'start': '11.378', 'end': '14.381', 'text': 'Welcome to \nConversations on Zhuangzi.'}, {'start': '14.447', 'end': '17.951', 'text': 'My name is Dominic\nand this is my father, Bruce.'}, {'start': '18.385', 'end': '23.123', 'text': "And we're going to continue this\nwith my brother Alex,"}, {'start': '23.356', 'end': '25.258', 'text': 'who has had a long passion'}, {'start': '25.258', 'end': '28.261', 'text': 'of learning about Zhuangzi\nsince his early days in college.'}, {'start': '28.628', 'end': '31.631', 'text': 'But he still kept his long hair.'}, {'start': '32.565', 'end': '35.568', 'text': 'And so Zhuangzi'}, {'start': '35.602', 'end': '38.171', 'text': "is someone\nthat we haven't heard as much about."}, {'start': '38.171', 'end': '41.174', 'text': 'We all know who Laozi is, \nthe Daodejing.'}, {'start': '41.441', 'end': '45.745', 'text': 'Give me some context on who Zhuangzi is and how this contrasts'}, {'start': '45.945', 'end': '48.948', 'text': 'to Laozi and the Daodejing.'}, {'start': '49.616', 'end': '52.786', 'text': 'Daoism has several\npeople who were considered'}, {'start': '52.786', 'end': '56.322', 'text': 'to be the big teachers. In Christianity,'}, {'start': '56.656', 'end': '59.692', 'text': 'we have Jesus.'}, {'start': '60.894', 'end': '61.995', 'text': 'He is a singular figure.'}, {'start': '61.995', 'end': '66.099', 'text': 'So a lot of people think that Laozi\nnot Lao Tzu,'}, {'start': '66.099', 'end': '71.404', 'text': 'but Laozi, is the equivalent of like,\na Jesus.'}, {'start': '71.404', 'end': '72.405', 'text': "Well, he's not."}, {'start': '73.339', 'end': '76.843', 'text': 'The Daoist tradition has a very, clear\nthing.'}, {'start': '76.843', 'end': '79.846', 'text': 'The question becomes like, well, where did\nDaoism come from?'}, {'start': '79.913', 'end': '83.149', 'text': 'And as far as the Chinese will go, is it\nthey will say that'}, {'start': '84.884', 'end': '87.887', 'text': 'Daoism came to into China from the West.'}, {'start': '88.788', 'end': '92.992', 'text': 'Now, some people have just interpreted\nthat as the mountains to the west'}, {'start': '92.992', 'end': '97.564', 'text': 'of China, and some people have interpreted\nthat is, from places of planet.'}, {'start': '97.831', 'end': '102.469', 'text': 'Well, in the case of Laozi, we have two.'}, {'start': '102.469', 'end': '106.739', 'text': 'The two biggest people in\nDaoism are Laozi and Zhuangzi.'}, {'start': '107.774', 'end': '111.010', 'text': 'And the main thing about them'}, {'start': '111.778', 'end': '114.781', 'text': 'is that at the simplest level.'}, {'start': '115.748', 'end': '118.118', 'text': 'The world is naturally filled'}, {'start': '118.118', 'end': '121.121', 'text': 'with people who are by temperament'}, {'start': '121.888', 'end': '124.891', 'text': 'conservative or liberal.'}, {'start': '125.191', 'end': '127.293', 'text': 'Okay, the hippies were liberal,'}, {'start': '127.293', 'end': '130.130', 'text': 'and as a matter of fact, most of the,'}, {'start': '131.531', 'end': '133.333', 'text': "things that made Zen seem it's"}, {'start': '133.333', 'end': '136.336', 'text': 'crazy wisdom\nthat that all came from Zhuangzi.'}, {'start': '137.137', 'end': '139.839', 'text': "Okay, didn't come from Laozi,\nit came from Zhuangzi"}, {'start': '139.839', 'end': '141.307', 'text': 'and the whole hippie movement.'}, {'start': '141.307', 'end': '145.411', 'text': 'A lot of what they were doing\nactually came from Zhuangzi again.'}, {'start': '146.246', 'end': '148.781', 'text': 'And the difference is that Laozi'}, {'start': '148.781', 'end': '151.784', 'text': 'was like any old man.'}, {'start': '153.119', 'end': '155.889', 'text': 'He was the old one.'}, {'start': '155.889', 'end': '159.159', 'text': 'Zhuangzi, \nlike in the human race, was the young one.'}, {'start': '160.026', 'end': '163.029', 'text': 'Now young people are looser'}, {'start': '163.763', 'end': '165.665', 'text': 'and more,'}, {'start': '165.665', 'end': '168.668', 'text': "let's say radical than old people are,"}, {'start': '170.036', 'end': '172.138', 'text': "and they don't assume"}, {'start': '172.138', 'end': '176.376', 'text': "that old men, old women,\nwhat's going to be their big response to"}, {'start': '176.409', 'end': '178.978', 'text': "all sorts of things,\n“I've been through this so many times."}, {'start': '178.978', 'end': '180.880', 'text': 'Let me tell you how it works, kid.”'}, {'start': '180.880', 'end': '181.447', 'text': 'Okay.'}, {'start': '181.447', 'end': '183.750', 'text': 'Been through it again and again and again.'}, {'start': '183.750', 'end': '190.123', 'text': 'Where,\nthe biggest single thing about Zhuangzi'}, {'start': '190.123', 'end': '193.893', 'text': 'is the reliance in terms of achieving'}, {'start': '193.893', 'end': '197.063', 'text': 'enlightenment is through spontaneity.'}, {'start': '198.331', 'end': '201.334', 'text': 'Now, hippies\nwere known for being spontaneous,'}, {'start': '201.834', 'end': '206.940', 'text': 'and I am not trying to make, Zhuangzi\na hippie that that would be.'}, {'start': '206.940', 'end': '209.576', 'text': 'I mean, the hippies did.'}, {'start': '209.576', 'end': '211.778', 'text': 'The hippies had some of the\nsome of the stuff right,'}, {'start': '211.778', 'end': '214.147', 'text': 'and some of the stuff\nthey screwed up royally.'}, {'start': '214.147', 'end': '217.150', 'text': "It would just depend upon, you know,\nwhich group we're talking about."}, {'start': '217.850', 'end': '222.488', 'text': 'But whenever you see things,\nthe two standard images'}, {'start': '223.122', 'end': '226.125', 'text': 'you have inside of China for.'}, {'start': '227.927', 'end': '229.028', 'text': 'Daoist sages,'}, {'start': '229.028', 'end': '232.031', 'text': 'Daoist priests, Daoist immortals,'}, {'start': '232.031', 'end': '237.003', 'text': 'is that you have those who are dressed\nvery conservatively.'}, {'start': '237.704', 'end': '240.974', 'text': "Usually he's got a beard somewhere,\nsomewhere down to the belly button."}, {'start': '241.708', 'end': '246.346', 'text': 'And then you have other people\nwho sometimes will look even half crazed'}, {'start': '247.046', 'end': '250.917', 'text': "and they'll be, you know,\nwhereas Laozi would ride"}, {'start': '250.917', 'end': '256.990', 'text': 'on, an ox,\nwhich is a symbol of ultimate stability.'}, {'start': '258.024', 'end': '259.025', 'text': 'Zhuangzi, very'}, {'start': '259.025', 'end': '262.028', 'text': "often\nwith God knows what he'd be dressed in."}, {'start': '262.328', 'end': '264.831', 'text': 'And you had a tradition\nrunning through China'}, {'start': '264.831', 'end': '267.934', 'text': 'to where you have to realize that the'}, {'start': '269.435', 'end': '272.405', 'text': 'teachings of Zhuangzi'}, {'start': '272.772', 'end': '275.775', 'text': 'also was the basis\nof a lot of imperial law.'}, {'start': '276.909', 'end': '279.279', 'text': 'Laozi was the basis of imperial law.'}, {'start': '280.046', 'end': '283.583', 'text': "I mean, it's said from what he did\nand his ideas,"}, {'start': '284.450', 'end': '287.453', 'text': 'and this is long before\nBuddhism ever showed up.'}, {'start': '288.054', 'end': '291.758', 'text': 'It was based upon a very measured'}, {'start': '293.192', 'end': '295.895', 'text': 'and a very awareness,'}, {'start': '295.895', 'end': '298.898', 'text': 'being quiet and measured,'}, {'start': '299.832', 'end': '301.734', 'text': 'whereas'}, {'start': '301.734', 'end': '305.305', 'text': "with Zhuangzi you'd be talking about wisdom being, you know,"}, {'start': '306.639', 'end': '309.642', 'text': 'as berserk as it could get.'}, {'start': '309.642', 'end': '312.345', 'text': "It could, which didn't mean\nthey were berzerk all the time,"}, {'start': '312.345', 'end': '316.382', 'text': 'but they had that\nbecause their guiding principle'}, {'start': '317.717', 'end': '321.354', 'text': 'was to be utterly spontaneous'}, {'start': '321.354', 'end': '325.458', 'text': 'in how the Dao expressed\nitself in every situation.'}, {'start': '326.826', 'end': '327.093', 'text': 'All right.'}, {'start': '327.093', 'end': '330.196', 'text': 'So they were trying they were trying to be\nin tune with the Dao,'}, {'start': '331.531', 'end': '334.634', 'text': 'where a lot of the programs'}, {'start': '334.634', 'end': '339.105', 'text': 'that came out of Laozi\nwere about how to behave,'}, {'start': '339.105', 'end': '343.242', 'text': 'how to think, how to do whatever,\nso that that would lead you to the Dao,'}, {'start': '345.011', 'end': '347.647', 'text': 'which Zhuangzi was trying to be right\nin the middle of the Dao'}, {'start': '347.647', 'end': '350.616', 'text': 'at all times. So.'}, {'start': '353.820', 'end': '354.420', 'text': 'There'}, {'start': '354.420', 'end': '358.391', 'text': 'a lot of the crazy stories\nyou get in Zen, for example,'}, {'start': '358.825', 'end': '361.594', 'text': 'about these crazy wisdom\nthings all over the place.'}, {'start': '361.594', 'end': '364.597', 'text': 'Those actually\nall originally derived from Zhuangzi.'}, {'start': '365.765', 'end': '370.370', 'text': 'And what you had is that those things\nwhich were to continue'}, {'start': '370.837', 'end': '372.772', 'text': 'and it was always talked about them\nlasting'}, {'start': '372.772', 'end': '375.775', 'text': 'thousands of years,\nwere usually coming from Laozi,'}, {'start': '376.509', 'end': '378.911', 'text': "because it's only after you have enough\nexperience,"}, {'start': '378.911', 'end': '383.049', 'text': 'enough spiritual experience,\nthat you can arrive at'}, {'start': '384.083', 'end': '388.988', 'text': 'how spirituality\nis, how it needs to be done'}, {'start': '388.988', 'end': '394.727', 'text': 'to be able to realistically manifest\nin a larger number of people.'}, {'start': '395.528', 'end': '397.830', 'text': 'Where in Zhuangzi, it'}, {'start': '397.964', 'end': '400.933', 'text': 'his school required a lot of bravery,'}, {'start': '401.868', 'end': '402.702', 'text': 'sheer bravery.'}, {'start': '402.702', 'end': '406.038', 'text': 'Now, as we all know, lots of,'}, {'start': '408.441', 'end': '411.778', 'text': 'Lots of people\nwhen it comes to things spiritual,'}, {'start': '411.778', 'end': '414.781', 'text': "they know they should do something,\nbut why don't they?"}, {'start': '414.881', 'end': '417.450', 'text': "Well, it's because they're afraid"}, {'start': '417.450', 'end': '420.019', 'text': 'their ego is under attack'}, {'start': '420.019', 'end': '424.123', 'text': 'and their ego is terrified\nwith behaving in such and such a way.'}, {'start': '424.924', 'end': '427.460', 'text': "You don't have anything like that with"}, {'start': '427.460', 'end': '430.463', 'text': 'with the, the Zhuangzi school.'}, {'start': '430.530', 'end': '434.767', 'text': 'So, for example,\nwhen you have things where you had,'}, {'start': '436.602', 'end': '438.771', 'text': 'a people who were Daoist,'}, {'start': '438.771', 'end': '441.507', 'text': 'it was always a thing about how\nthey were high government officials,'}, {'start': '442.942', 'end': '444.377', 'text': 'you know, the equivalent of a president'}, {'start': '444.377', 'end': '447.613', 'text': 'or the governor of a state or four star\nor a five star general.'}, {'start': '448.347', 'end': '451.484', 'text': 'And then one day they would just kind of\ngo, well, you know,'}, {'start': '453.052', 'end': '456.222', 'text': 'this is no longer taking me toward the Dao.'}, {'start': '456.222', 'end': '460.460', 'text': 'And they would literally get rid\nof all their clothes, their jewels,'}, {'start': '460.460', 'end': '463.996', 'text': "and they they'd go out and they'd be\nin the public dressed in rags."}, {'start': '465.398', 'end': '468.201', 'text': 'And they would teach people\nif people asked them'}, {'start': '468.201', 'end': '471.204', 'text': "and they thought the person wasn't,\nyou know, wasn't a BS artist."}, {'start': '472.238', 'end': '475.441', 'text': 'But with Laozi, where there were temples.'}, {'start': '476.375', 'end': '479.011', 'text': 'This is where they came from.'}, {'start': '479.011', 'end': '480.980', 'text': 'And with Zhuangzi'}, {'start': '480.980', 'end': '483.983', 'text': 'there were temples, but they were small.'}, {'start': '484.684', 'end': '486.619', 'text': 'You know, I see a difference\nbetween something that was 20'}, {'start': '486.619', 'end': '490.990', 'text': 'or 30 people in it\nand something that has 2 or 300. Now,'}, {'start': '492.191', 'end': '493.593', 'text': 'all of this in the Daoist'}, {'start': '493.593', 'end': '496.596', 'text': 'temples\nwere quite different from the Buddhist,'}, {'start': '497.363', 'end': '500.166', 'text': 'which is a lot of people confuse \nthe two of them.'}, {'start': '500.166', 'end': '503.169', 'text': 'They think that Buddhism and Daoism\nit was kind of the same thing.'}, {'start': '503.236', 'end': '506.239', 'text': "And it's not it really isn't."}, {'start': '506.739', 'end': '509.742', 'text': 'Buddhism had,'}, {'start': '510.510', 'end': '513.513', 'text': 'It had very, very large temple complexes,'}, {'start': '514.480', 'end': '516.816', 'text': 'for example, in Tibet,\nthe Sera and the Gandan'}, {'start': '516.816', 'end': '520.753', 'text': 'each had 7500 people in it, 7500 monks.'}, {'start': '522.288', 'end': '525.191', 'text': 'Now, the Daoist tradition in general'}, {'start': '525.191', 'end': '528.194', 'text': 'and Zhuangzi’s it typifies it much more'}, {'start': '528.528', 'end': '532.832', 'text': 'was not that big on monks,\nalthough they had them.'}, {'start': '533.833', 'end': '536.836', 'text': 'And the purpose of the monks\nwas mostly to run temples.'}, {'start': '537.803', 'end': '539.238', 'text': 'But what is a Daoist temple?'}, {'start': '539.238', 'end': '541.507', 'text': 'Well,'}, {'start': '541.507', 'end': '544.510', 'text': 'this will give you an idea.'}, {'start': '545.811', 'end': '548.347', 'text': 'Society’s religions.'}, {'start': '548.347', 'end': '553.753', 'text': 'Part of what they do is try and organize\nsociety with some sort of'}, {'start': '554.820', 'end': '556.989', 'text': 'regulated behavior that'}, {'start': '556.989', 'end': '559.992', 'text': 'they call their principles, their'}, {'start': '560.259', 'end': '561.894', 'text': 'commandments, whatever,'}, {'start': '561.894', 'end': '564.897', 'text': "because they're trying\nto regulate society."}, {'start': '565.331', 'end': '567.533', 'text': 'The Daoist realized a long time ago'}, {'start': '567.533', 'end': '570.636', 'text': 'that human beings\nwill have a tendency to hate each other.'}, {'start': '570.636', 'end': '574.640', 'text': "If there wasn't some sort of regulating\nsomething or other,"}, {'start': '575.942', 'end': '579.478', 'text': "so something you wouldn't get, a person"}, {'start': '579.478', 'end': '583.416', 'text': 'might, might go to, Christian or a Jewish'}, {'start': '584.517', 'end': '586.986', 'text': 'temple, church, whatever.'}, {'start': '586.986', 'end': '590.056', 'text': 'And they might secretly,\nin their heart of hearts, hope'}, {'start': '590.623', 'end': '593.626', 'text': 'to get the names of the winning horses\non the Saturday races.'}, {'start': '594.627', 'end': '596.896', 'text': 'Okay, somewhat.'}, {'start': '596.896', 'end': '601.000', 'text': "But in, in, in, in Daoist temples,\nthey'd be rather unambiguous"}, {'start': '601.367', 'end': '604.637', 'text': "that they'd have their incense sticks\nand they would go specifically,"}, {'start': '605.104', 'end': '608.107', 'text': "who's going to be the winner\nin the Saturday races,"}, {'start': '608.708', 'end': '611.811', 'text': 'like in Hong Kong, where the\nthe Hong Kong Jockey Club'}, {'start': '612.345', 'end': '615.348', 'text': 'is like the biggest social institution\nin Hong Kong.'}, {'start': '615.581', 'end': '619.485', 'text': 'You get people the day or the day or two\nbefore on the day.'}, {'start': '619.885', 'end': '623.522', 'text': "There's stuffing any little Daloist temple\nthey can get into because they want"}, {'start': '624.590', 'end': '626.492', 'text': 'they want the crib sheet.'}, {'start': '626.492', 'end': '629.495', 'text': 'They want to know, you know,\nwhich horse is going to win'}, {'start': '629.862', 'end': '632.531', 'text': "because money's had a certain attraction."}, {'start': '632.531', 'end': '635.201', 'text': 'But one big difference'}, {'start': '635.201', 'end': '638.204', 'text': 'in that Laozi of being much more'}, {'start': '638.771', 'end': '641.207', 'text': 'the conservative'}, {'start': '641.207', 'end': '643.542', 'text': 'is, if anything is conservative,'}, {'start': '643.542', 'end': '646.812', 'text': 'tries to have a set of rules to live by,'}, {'start': '647.847', 'end': '650.349', 'text': 'and they do is very simply\nbecause they genuinely believe that'}, {'start': '650.349', 'end': '653.352', 'text': "most people can't make up their mind\nhow they should live their lives."}, {'start': '653.519', 'end': '657.957', 'text': "And so you give them things\nwhich will make sure that they won't rob"}, {'start': '657.957', 'end': '661.394', 'text': "and kill each other and eat their\nchildren, or eat someone else's children"}, {'start': '661.961', 'end': '664.664', 'text': 'by having some sort of regulation.'}, {'start': '664.664', 'end': '666.932', 'text': 'Whereas'}, {'start': '666.932', 'end': '669.001', 'text': 'Zhuangzi school wants people'}, {'start': '669.001', 'end': '672.004', 'text': 'to go right out to the edge'}, {'start': '672.071', 'end': '673.973', 'text': 'to where they can start'}, {'start': '673.973', 'end': '678.077', 'text': 'directly in to it\nwhat the Dao is trying to tell them to do,'}, {'start': '678.444', 'end': '682.815', 'text': 'so that they arrive at what they arrive\nat to their own experimentation.'}, {'start': '683.883', 'end': '686.152', 'text': 'Not you should do this,'}, {'start': '686.152', 'end': '688.087', 'text': 'but to do is do do things.'}, {'start': '688.087', 'end': '691.123', 'text': "No matter if society thinks\nwhat you're doing is totally crazy,"}, {'start': '691.824', 'end': '694.827', 'text': 'until you find out\nwhat is the root of that inside you.'}, {'start': '695.928', 'end': '697.863', 'text': 'So Zhuangzi’s school'}, {'start': '697.863', 'end': '700.866', 'text': 'like the hippies were not,'}, {'start': '703.436', 'end': '704.603', 'text': "they're not bow down"}, {'start': '704.603', 'end': '707.606', 'text': 'before the rules of society that much'}, {'start': '708.607', 'end': '711.610', 'text': 'and Laozi’s school did,'}, {'start': '712.244', 'end': '715.715', 'text': "but it didn't do it\nwhen some sort of rigid way."}, {'start': '715.715', 'end': '719.585', 'text': 'It did it in a very soft way,\nand there was a much greater'}, {'start': '719.585', 'end': '722.588', 'text': 'appreciation for'}, {'start': '723.956', 'end': '725.558', 'text': 'that knowledge'}, {'start': '725.558', 'end': '728.360', 'text': 'gained through the wisdom of having lived'}, {'start': '728.360', 'end': '731.363', 'text': 'the life and experienced a lot of life'}, {'start': '731.764', 'end': '735.034', 'text': 'was definitely more valuable\nthan winging it.'}, {'start': '736.001', 'end': '739.205', 'text': 'Where the Zhuangzi’s school winged it.'}, {'start': '740.740', 'end': '742.074', 'text': 'Okay.'}, {'start': '742.074', 'end': '744.510', 'text': 'You would, an example being,'}, {'start': '744.510', 'end': '747.513', 'text': 'if you had a some kind of congregation\nlike in America,'}, {'start': '748.247', 'end': '752.318', 'text': "you wouldn't get the head minister,\npriests, whatever it is saying that."}, {'start': '752.318', 'end': '754.086', 'text': 'Now, you fucker. Sit down. Listen.'}, {'start': '756.822', 'end': '759.458', 'text': 'You profane the name of the Lord'}, {'start': '759.458', 'end': '761.560', 'text': 'where somebody in Zhuangzi’s school'}, {'start': '761.560', 'end': '764.563', 'text': 'would do that without blinking.'}, {'start': '764.630', 'end': '768.400', 'text': 'Because they would always be trying to go\nfor what the essence of something was.'}, {'start': '769.268', 'end': '772.638', 'text': 'They were radically more interested,\nin essence'}, {'start': '773.405', 'end': '776.408', 'text': 'than they were in'}, {'start': '776.442', 'end': '779.578', 'text': 'the reflections\nevent of of essence in the mirror.'}, {'start': '780.913', 'end': '784.416', 'text': 'So, you know, as a general rule,\nit was considered that'}, {'start': '784.416', 'end': '787.753', 'text': 'the people who were involved with'}, {'start': '787.753', 'end': '790.723', 'text': 'the Zhuangzi’s school'}, {'start': '791.157', 'end': '794.160', 'text': 'had a tendency\nto be a bit more intelligent,'}, {'start': '794.460', 'end': '797.463', 'text': 'because it takes intelligence\nto have independent thought.'}, {'start': '798.964', 'end': '801.967', 'text': 'And it also was that they.'}, {'start': '803.903', 'end': '806.906', 'text': 'Moved through society very freely,'}, {'start': '807.239', 'end': '809.742', 'text': "and they didn't care how they dressed."}, {'start': '809.742', 'end': '813.145', 'text': "They didn't care how they looked,\nthey didn't care how they look"}, {'start': '813.145', 'end': '816.148', 'text': 'as long as in some way'}, {'start': '816.248', 'end': '817.983', 'text': 'that was echoing'}, {'start': '817.983', 'end': '821.086', 'text': 'what the Dao was or Christian terms.'}, {'start': '821.487', 'end': '824.423', 'text': 'They were actually listening\nto what God was telling him to do'}, {'start': '825.457', 'end': '826.592', 'text': 'that,'}, {'start': '826.592', 'end': '829.595', 'text': "and they didn't make excuses\nabout the way they acted"}, {'start': '830.529', 'end': '832.565', 'text': 'unless'}, {'start': '832.565', 'end': '836.502', 'text': 'there were other conservative\ngroups in China, such as the Confucians'}, {'start': '836.502', 'end': '840.539', 'text': "which they stayed away from\nbecause the Confucians, if you didn't say"}, {'start': '841.073', 'end': '844.510', 'text': 'things the way they wanted you to say, it\nessentially would execute you.'}, {'start': '845.644', 'end': '847.346', 'text': "Okay, so now we're talking about that."}, {'start': '847.346', 'end': '851.817', 'text': 'Confucianism\nhas a very strong affinity'}, {'start': '851.817', 'end': '854.620', 'text': 'with what we would call dictatorship,'}, {'start': '854.620', 'end': '857.623', 'text': 'where'}, {'start': '858.924', 'end': '861.493', 'text': "Zhuangzi didn't."}, {'start': '861.493', 'end': '863.596', 'text': 'But a big part of Zhuangzi'}, {'start': '863.596', 'end': '867.099', 'text': 'is that by allowing oneself'}, {'start': '867.099', 'end': '871.871', 'text': 'to freely express\nwhat was in one at the beginning of it,'}, {'start': '871.871', 'end': '874.907', 'text': 'there was the pure understanding\nthat people are still going'}, {'start': '874.907', 'end': '877.910', 'text': 'to go back to whatever\ntheir habitual patterns were.'}, {'start': '878.444', 'end': '881.814', 'text': 'But then, as they got\nused to being more free'}, {'start': '881.814', 'end': '885.184', 'text': 'with what they were saying,\nthey would slowly start being able'}, {'start': '885.184', 'end': '887.987', 'text': 'to penetrate right\nto the core of their being,'}, {'start': '887.987', 'end': '888.621', 'text': 'where the truth'}, {'start': '888.621', 'end': '891.690', 'text': 'the matter was, and that is the only place\nthat now is going to be found.'}, {'start': '892.491', 'end': '894.693', 'text': "It's not going to be found\nin how you dress,"}, {'start': '894.693', 'end': '898.430', 'text': 'how you talk,\nwhere you live, what your status is.'}, {'start': '899.999', 'end': '902.001', 'text': 'So it was it was quite common.'}, {'start': '902.001', 'end': '905.537', 'text': 'As I said, it was not it was even common.'}, {'start': '905.537', 'end': '909.642', 'text': 'The generals in the middle of a battle\nwould, like drop everything and leave,'}, {'start': '910.776', 'end': '913.779', 'text': 'and then go up into the mountains\nto explore what they were or'}, {'start': '914.413', 'end': '917.950', 'text': 'do at the end of the battle, when normally\nthe general would go to the emperor'}, {'start': '917.950', 'end': '921.553', 'text': "to get all these rewards\nand they'd say, keep your rewards."}, {'start': '922.988', 'end': '926.692', 'text': 'That is not going to help one\nto understand what the Dao is.'}, {'start': '926.692', 'end': '930.195', 'text': 'That is not going to\nhelp someone to understand what'}, {'start': '930.963', 'end': '933.465', 'text': 'enlightenment is.'}, {'start': '933.465', 'end': '934.466', 'text': "It's not going to do it."}, {'start': '934.466', 'end': '936.802', 'text': "So if it's not going to do it,"}, {'start': '936.802', 'end': '938.237', 'text': "I'm sorry."}, {'start': '938.237', 'end': '941.607', 'text': 'You know, my, my my thing is, is\nbeing a student of the Dao,'}, {'start': '942.608', 'end': '943.075', 'text': 'which means'}, {'start': '943.075', 'end': '946.145', 'text': 'I have to try and somehow\ngetting coordinated.'}, {'start': '946.145', 'end': '948.781', 'text': 'So they never really had the problem of,'}, {'start': '948.781', 'end': '951.784', 'text': "you know, everybody's a sinner,\nbut they don't want to admit it."}, {'start': '952.251', 'end': '953.552', 'text': 'Okay?'}, {'start': '953.552', 'end': '956.789', 'text': "They never really had that\nbecause they didn't have anything"}, {'start': '957.623', 'end': '962.227', 'text': 'as a general rule\nthat was mandated about how'}, {'start': '962.227', 'end': '965.230', 'text': 'they should live or how they should act\nor what they should do.'}, {'start': '966.031', 'end': '970.569', 'text': 'But the mandate that they did\nhave was to explore all that, that'}, {'start': '970.569', 'end': '974.440', 'text': 'which was inside them,\nuntil they could actually realize'}, {'start': '974.440', 'end': '977.910', 'text': 'what was at their core\nand have a bridge to the universe.'}, {'start': '981.313', 'end': '985.351', 'text': 'Okay,\nyou did a fantastic job of explaining'}, {'start': '987.152', 'end': '988.954', 'text': 'who Zhuangzi is'}, {'start': '988.954', 'end': '991.957', 'text': 'and his tradition, and how that contrasts'}, {'start': '992.091', 'end': '995.294', 'text': 'with Laozi, and his tradition'}, {'start': '995.294', 'end': '998.530', 'text': 'and how that kind of completes the Daoist\ntradition as a whole.'}, {'start': '999.131', 'end': '1002.968', 'text': "Well, I shouldn't say as a whole,\nbecause I didn't go into Liezi"}, {'start': '1002.968', 'end': '1004.203', 'text': "and I didn't go into Mongze,"}, {'start': '1005.137', 'end': '1008.140', 'text': 'which were, you know,'}, {'start': '1008.607', 'end': '1011.343', 'text': 'kind of sitting in the middle ground\nbetween'}, {'start': '1011.343', 'end': '1014.346', 'text': 'Laozi and Zhuangzi.'}, {'start': '1015.314', 'end': '1016.181', 'text': "You've discussed"}, {'start': '1016.181', 'end': '1019.752', 'text': 'before about the fire tradition\nand the water tradition,'}, {'start': '1019.952', 'end': '1023.956', 'text': 'the fire tradition being Zhuangzi\nand the water tradition being Laozi.'}, {'start': '1023.956', 'end': '1028.727', 'text': 'So you have had experience in both?\nTo be accurate'}, {'start': '1028.727', 'end': '1031.563', 'text': 'Yeah.'}, {'start': '1031.563', 'end': '1032.731', 'text': 'The fire and the water'}, {'start': '1032.731', 'end': '1035.701', 'text': 'traditions is more about how you practice'}, {'start': '1036.468', 'end': '1039.471', 'text': 'and,'}, {'start': '1039.972', 'end': '1043.075', 'text': 'There is people get very confused.'}, {'start': '1043.075', 'end': '1047.012', 'text': 'I mean, they will confuse Laozi\nand Zhuangzi with the fire and water'}, {'start': '1047.012', 'end': '1048.714', 'text': 'traditions.'}, {'start': '1048.714', 'end': '1051.717', 'text': 'I was explaining what'}, {'start': '1052.985', 'end': '1056.288', 'text': 'both Laozi and Zhuangzi\n have fire and water traditions.'}, {'start': '1057.589', 'end': '1059.191', 'text': 'Okay.'}, {'start': '1059.191', 'end': '1063.262', 'text': 'Fire traditions were a little bit\nmore common, with Zhuangzi,'}, {'start': '1064.029', 'end': '1066.999', 'text': 'for the simple reason that'}, {'start': '1066.999', 'end': '1071.570', 'text': 'spiritual progress for those who had\nthe courage can be much faster.'}, {'start': '1072.805', 'end': '1075.741', 'text': 'But you also have the problem'}, {'start': '1075.741', 'end': '1080.679', 'text': 'that with the fire traditions,\ntoo many people get really hurt.'}, {'start': '1080.679', 'end': '1082.381', 'text': 'And then you know what is it?'}, {'start': '1082.381', 'end': '1085.384', 'text': 'You know, two steps forward,\nfour steps back,'}, {'start': '1085.651', 'end': '1089.154', 'text': 'so that they never actually get to\nwhat the deeper things are because'}, {'start': '1089.154', 'end': '1092.491', 'text': 'they got trash from doing practices\nthat were too extreme.'}, {'start': '1092.925', 'end': '1095.928', 'text': 'And the basic difference\nbetween fire and water'}, {'start': '1096.361', 'end': '1099.565', 'text': 'is that fire traditions\nwill sometimes get very extreme.'}, {'start': '1100.599', 'end': '1103.602', 'text': 'But water traditions\nnever will get extreme.'}, {'start': '1107.072', 'end': '1110.042', 'text': 'So now we kind of understand'}, {'start': '1110.309', 'end': '1113.312', 'text': 'Zhuangzi\nand his tradition.'}, {'start': '1114.513', 'end': '1116.582', 'text': "Let's talk about his text,"}, {'start': '1116.582', 'end': '1119.585', 'text': 'the aptly named Zhuangzi,\na very creative name.'}, {'start': '1119.751', 'end': '1124.823', 'text': 'When I was in China\nand I spoke to a lot of professors and,'}, {'start': '1125.324', 'end': '1129.728', 'text': 'teach and students,\nthey learn Zhuangzi as a purely'}, {'start': '1129.728', 'end': '1132.798', 'text': 'as a philosophical text,\nnot a spiritual one.'}, {'start': '1133.565', 'end': '1136.635', 'text': 'What are they missing\nand how does that tie'}, {'start': '1136.635', 'end': '1140.472', 'text': 'into you\nlearning the Daoist arts. First of all,'}, {'start': '1143.142', 'end': '1144.843', 'text': 'They also taught in China'}, {'start': '1144.843', 'end': '1147.813', 'text': 'that Laozi was a philosophical tradition.'}, {'start': '1149.948', 'end': '1150.916', 'text': "And here I'll try and make"}, {'start': '1150.916', 'end': '1153.919', 'text': 'this point really simple.'}, {'start': '1155.020', 'end': '1158.023', 'text': 'In the spiritual traditions of the world,'}, {'start': '1158.690', 'end': '1161.527', 'text': 'there are two major subdivisions.'}, {'start': '1161.527', 'end': '1166.932', 'text': 'One is that of practitioners\nwho actually want to become one with God.'}, {'start': '1166.932', 'end': '1168.367', 'text': "You don't want to know about God."}, {'start': '1168.367', 'end': '1171.537', 'text': "You want to talk to him personally,\nlike I'm talking to you."}, {'start': '1172.671', 'end': '1177.809', 'text': 'So that are active practitioners\nwho are trying to fulfill'}, {'start': '1178.243', 'end': '1181.747', 'text': 'the principles\nthat are in the philosophy now.'}, {'start': '1182.581', 'end': '1185.584', 'text': 'But then for many religions,'}, {'start': '1185.918', 'end': '1188.921', 'text': "the philosophy becomes a thing\nand they don't really"}, {'start': '1189.855', 'end': '1194.026', 'text': 'focus or have that great a bridge\ninto what the spiritual side of it is.'}, {'start': '1194.726', 'end': '1197.729', 'text': 'So, you know.'}, {'start': '1200.399', 'end': '1202.401', 'text': 'If someone'}, {'start': '1202.401', 'end': '1205.504', 'text': 'steals something,\na muslim will cut off their hand.'}, {'start': '1206.371', 'end': '1207.973', 'text': "Now, I don't know if cutting their hand"}, {'start': '1207.973', 'end': '1211.276', 'text': 'is going to change that\nwhich is within their character,'}, {'start': '1211.877', 'end': '1215.380', 'text': 'that which is within them,\nthat they would never even think to steal.'}, {'start': '1216.515', 'end': '1219.518', 'text': 'It would never arise inside them.'}, {'start': '1219.851', 'end': '1222.321', 'text': 'Jesus Christ,'}, {'start': '1222.321', 'end': '1225.324', 'text': 'you know, treat your neighbor as yourself.'}, {'start': '1225.424', 'end': '1228.393', 'text': 'Most people are way too egocentric\nto do that.'}, {'start': '1228.694', 'end': '1229.461', 'text': 'Me first.'}, {'start': '1229.461', 'end': '1232.965', 'text': "Everybody else,\nyou know, get whatever scraps you're left."}, {'start': '1234.833', 'end': '1239.071', 'text': "Now that's the difference\nbetween a philosopher,"}, {'start': '1239.538', 'end': '1243.842', 'text': 'a spiritual philosophy\nis like any philosophy.'}, {'start': '1243.842', 'end': '1248.714', 'text': 'It is stating how you should live,\nwhat should be the undercurrents'}, {'start': '1248.714', 'end': '1251.717', 'text': 'of your behaviors in society'}, {'start': '1252.884', 'end': '1255.887', 'text': "where spirituality doesn't\nreally care much about that."}, {'start': '1257.222', 'end': '1262.961', 'text': 'It cares about how in the human experience\nof going through society,'}, {'start': '1263.562', 'end': '1267.032', 'text': 'it can bring them closer to a realization'}, {'start': '1267.032', 'end': '1270.002', 'text': 'of spiritual reality.'}, {'start': '1271.136', 'end': '1273.538', 'text': 'Can you talk more about the specific text,'}, {'start': '1273.538', 'end': '1276.541', 'text': 'the Zhuangzi, and how'}, {'start': '1277.743', 'end': '1279.278', 'text': 'it teaches you'}, {'start': '1279.278', 'end': '1281.980', 'text': 'to be able to do these inner practices\nthat you just discussed?'}, {'start': '1281.980', 'end': '1284.983', 'text': 'First of all,\nthat is what your brother is going to do.'}, {'start': '1285.484', 'end': '1287.886', 'text': "He's doing the specific chapters\nin the Zhuangzi,"}, {'start': '1287.886', 'end': '1289.521', 'text': 'and'}, {'start': '1291.156', 'end': '1292.424', 'text': "a lot of what's in the whole"}, {'start': '1292.424', 'end': '1295.427', 'text': 'school of Zhuangzi in Daoism is not.'}, {'start': '1297.062', 'end': '1301.433', 'text': "Sometimes from reading the text,\nyou couldn't you couldn't get that."}, {'start': '1301.433', 'end': '1304.803', 'text': "It's not it's not, a dictum."}, {'start': '1304.803', 'end': '1307.806', 'text': "It's not something that this must be done."}, {'start': '1308.340', 'end': '1311.343', 'text': "And there's lots of things\nthat are mentioned,"}, {'start': '1311.410', 'end': '1314.713', 'text': 'and they were and they were passed down\nthrough the masters of the tradition.'}, {'start': '1316.715', 'end': '1320.519', 'text': 'Anything that is basically a literary\ntradition'}, {'start': '1321.586', 'end': '1324.589', 'text': 'of spirituality is a philosophical text,'}, {'start': '1325.891', 'end': '1329.561', 'text': 'because when you start getting down\nto what the reality of it is,'}, {'start': '1330.529', 'end': '1333.532', 'text': 'that only can be passed on from human\nbeing to human being.'}, {'start': '1334.666', 'end': '1339.404', 'text': 'So delving into that, you know,\nand as you mentioned, as we go forward,'}, {'start': '1339.805', 'end': '1342.808', 'text': 'our brother Alex will be going chapter\nby chapter with you.'}, {'start': '1343.442', 'end': '1345.644', 'text': 'How were you taught the Zhuangzi?'}, {'start': '1345.644', 'end': '1347.512', 'text': 'So did you guys go chapter by chapter?'}, {'start': '1347.512', 'end': '1349.214', 'text': 'Were you more just taught things?'}, {'start': '1349.214', 'end': '1352.651', 'text': 'And then they mentioned - No, I was taught whatever the teachers wanted to teach,'}, {'start': '1353.151', 'end': '1355.354', 'text': 'we did some things in groups.'}, {'start': '1355.354', 'end': '1357.756', 'text': 'We did some things\nthat were one on one with the Masters,'}, {'start': '1358.724', 'end': '1360.726', 'text': 'and that was it.'}, {'start': '1360.726', 'end': '1365.330', 'text': 'The, sense at that time\nI could not read classical Chinese,'}, {'start': '1365.530', 'end': '1369.368', 'text': 'and to tell you the truth,\nnor could most Chinese.'}, {'start': '1370.068', 'end': '1371.336', 'text': 'Okay.'}, {'start': '1371.336', 'end': '1373.705', 'text': 'The issue is that those are words.'}, {'start': '1373.705', 'end': '1376.708', 'text': 'Words are not living things.'}, {'start': '1377.776', 'end': '1379.611', 'text': 'They are dead ideas'}, {'start': '1379.611', 'end': '1382.614', 'text': 'that are pointing toward living things.'}, {'start': '1383.048', 'end': '1386.251', 'text': 'The words, the word,\nthe words of a text are not alive.'}, {'start': '1389.521', 'end': '1393.692', 'text': 'Are there any additional things\npeople should kind of be aware about,'}, {'start': '1393.692', 'end': '1396.661', 'text': 'or kind of do anything internally'}, {'start': '1397.562', 'end': '1400.799', 'text': 'before you go into the chapters,\nbefore they kind of learn more about'}, {'start': '1401.400', 'end': '1404.669', 'text': 'the first of all,\nthe chapters in Zhuangzi'}, {'start': '1405.370', 'end': '1407.806', 'text': 'usually went through long periods of time'}, {'start': '1407.806', 'end': '1410.809', 'text': 'before even the book was mentioned'}, {'start': '1411.009', 'end': '1415.013', 'text': 'about what were the practices,\nwhat what were the things'}, {'start': '1415.380', 'end': '1418.083', 'text': 'that you were trying to do\nthat would eventually start'}, {'start': '1418.083', 'end': '1419.851', 'text': 'moving you in the direction of the Dao?'}, {'start': '1421.386', 'end': '1424.256', 'text': "And that's not just quoting"}, {'start': '1424.256', 'end': '1427.259', 'text': 'dead words from dead pages.'}, {'start': '1429.194', 'end': '1433.231', 'text': 'That was much more employed\nin the Confucian schools'}, {'start': '1433.765', 'end': '1436.768', 'text': 'of Chinese spirituality.'}, {'start': '1437.569', 'end': '1440.572', 'text': 'So as we wrap up this lesson,'}, {'start': '1442.207', 'end': '1445.177', 'text': 'why do you think'}, {'start': '1445.177', 'end': '1449.080', 'text': 'Laozi is so much more well known,\nespecially in the West'}, {'start': '1449.448', 'end': '1450.515', 'text': 'then Zhuangzi?'}, {'start': '1450.515', 'end': '1453.518', 'text': 'Oh, as I said'}, {'start': '1453.819', 'end': '1456.488', 'text': 'Laozi was incorporated'}, {'start': '1456.488', 'end': '1459.491', 'text': 'into the imperial laws.'}, {'start': '1459.691', 'end': '1463.695', 'text': 'It was a basis that when you went to\na judge, those, you know, those were text'}, {'start': '1464.196', 'end': '1468.233', 'text': 'that they had to learn\nand that they had to rule on decisions'}, {'start': '1468.667', 'end': '1471.670', 'text': 'about whatever the decisions were.'}, {'start': '1472.237', 'end': '1475.240', 'text': "That's the reason why."}, {'start': '1475.774', 'end': '1478.643', 'text': 'Zhuangzi was never that big'}, {'start': '1478.643', 'end': '1481.646', 'text': 'a part of the imperial law system.'}, {'start': '1485.417', 'end': '1487.586', 'text': 'In your own practice,'}, {'start': '1487.586', 'end': '1490.589', 'text': 'how has the teachings of Zhuangzi,'}, {'start': '1490.956', 'end': '1493.325', 'text': 'helped you\nin ways of the teaching Laozi'}, {'start': '1493.325', 'end': '1493.992', 'text': 'hasn’t?'}, {'start': '1498.597', 'end': '1501.600', 'text': 'Well, I would say step number one'}, {'start': '1501.800', 'end': '1505.337', 'text': 'was that when I was in first in China,\nI came from America,'}, {'start': '1506.404', 'end': '1509.541', 'text': 'and I had all sorts of what I would call'}, {'start': '1510.141', 'end': '1513.578', 'text': 'spiritually contracted ideas\nand philosophies.'}, {'start': '1514.145', 'end': '1516.848', 'text': 'And Zhuangzi helped me get past that.'}, {'start': '1516.848', 'end': '1520.185', 'text': 'The second one is that\nI was a bit of a free spirit,'}, {'start': '1520.819', 'end': '1523.722', 'text': 'and I would have to say that'}, {'start': '1523.722', 'end': '1526.525', 'text': 'Zhuangzi unlocked that free spirit in me'}, {'start': '1526.525', 'end': '1529.528', 'text': 'to a degree that the works of Laozi didn’t.'}, {'start': '1531.997', 'end': '1535.000', 'text': 'So would you say then that\nyou think that the'}, {'start': '1535.033', 'end': '1538.203', 'text': 'and kind of culture of Americans delves'}, {'start': '1538.203', 'end': '1541.573', 'text': 'a little better\nwith, Zhuangzi and his tradition?'}, {'start': '1543.074', 'end': '1545.176', 'text': 'Well, I would have to say what sections'}, {'start': '1545.176', 'end': '1548.179', 'text': 'of American culture look currently,'}, {'start': '1549.147', 'end': '1551.283', 'text': 'what is the big bugaboo on\nthe political scene?'}, {'start': '1551.283', 'end': '1552.150', 'text': 'Is Donald Trump.'}, {'start': '1553.318', 'end': '1556.321', 'text': 'His MAGA people are'}, {'start': '1556.521', 'end': '1557.455', 'text': 'conservative.'}, {'start': '1557.455', 'end': '1559.457', 'text': 'as hell,'}, {'start': '1559.457', 'end': '1562.460', 'text': "they're not particularly liberal."}, {'start': '1562.627', 'end': '1567.732', 'text': 'Where you had\nsome of the more extreme wings'}, {'start': '1567.732', 'end': '1570.735', 'text': 'of the Democratic Party,\nare more liberal.'}, {'start': '1570.969', 'end': '1573.972', 'text': "But the fact of the matter\nis that I don't."}, {'start': '1579.377', 'end': '1580.912', 'text': 'To a conservative'}, {'start': '1580.912', 'end': '1583.915', 'text': 'to a conservative way of thinking.'}, {'start': '1585.550', 'end': '1588.553', 'text': 'The past is more important\nthan the future,'}, {'start': '1589.688', 'end': '1594.426', 'text': 'because the past gives benchmarks.'}, {'start': '1594.426', 'end': '1597.429', 'text': 'And what will happen if you do X, Y and z?'}, {'start': '1598.897', 'end': '1601.666', 'text': 'The past is what'}, {'start': '1601.666', 'end': '1604.669', 'text': 'the rulers of society have always'}, {'start': '1605.203', 'end': '1608.206', 'text': 'tried to use as their backstop.'}, {'start': '1608.974', 'end': '1610.942', 'text': 'Okay, you go back to ancient Egypt.'}, {'start': '1610.942', 'end': '1614.112', 'text': "You don't have liberal thinking pharaohs,"}, {'start': '1615.814', 'end': '1617.382', 'text': 'you had conservative ones.'}, {'start': '1617.382', 'end': '1622.120', 'text': 'And when the objective is to build\nempires,'}, {'start': '1623.021', 'end': '1626.024', 'text': 'to control massive numbers of people,'}, {'start': '1626.324', 'end': '1628.893', 'text': 'then the ways of Laozi'}, {'start': '1628.893', 'end': '1632.897', 'text': 'can easily be twisted to appear to be that'}, {'start': '1633.965', 'end': '1634.265', 'text': 'While Laozi'}, {'start': '1634.265', 'end': '1637.268', 'text': 'larger was was not, in truth,\na conservative,'}, {'start': '1637.268', 'end': '1641.439', 'text': 'but in terms of the whole range of\nwhat was in Daoism.'}, {'start': '1642.907', 'end': '1645.910', 'text': 'I mean, for example,'}, {'start': '1645.977', 'end': '1648.813', 'text': 'Laozi’s school had sexual practices,'}, {'start': '1648.813', 'end': '1652.884', 'text': 'but they were not out there anywhere\nas far as they were Zhuangzi. So'}, {'start': '1654.552', 'end': '1657.155', 'text': 'and that was because,'}, {'start': '1657.155', 'end': '1660.158', 'text': 'Laozi’s whole thing was living a very'}, {'start': '1661.393', 'end': '1664.396', 'text': 'measured life.'}, {'start': '1664.429', 'end': '1669.467', 'text': "And Zhuangzi’s was not.\n It wasn't that Zhuangzi"}, {'start': '1669.467', 'end': '1671.169', 'text': 'was against a measured life.'}, {'start': '1671.169', 'end': '1673.872', 'text': 'To him, it was irrelevant,'}, {'start': '1673.872', 'end': '1675.473', 'text': 'which with Laozi it was very,'}, {'start': '1675.473', 'end': '1678.476', 'text': 'very, very relevant.'}, {'start': '1680.412', 'end': '1681.079', 'text': 'And then, you know,'}, {'start': '1681.079', 'end': '1684.516', 'text': "all the little things about what you do\nand what you don't do,"}, {'start': '1684.516', 'end': '1686.751', 'text': "what you should believe,\nwhat you shouldn't believe"}, {'start': '1686.751', 'end': '1689.754', 'text': 'all flow from those basic principles.'}]