text:
Many IT pros still have a long wish list when it comes to building a hybrid cloud with OpenStack and public cloud providers like AWS.
which uses the open source cloud platform for internal or private cloud operations, and one of the three major cloud providers -- Amazon Web Services, Google or Microsoft Azure -- for the public cloud segment.
However, as OpenStack is still a work in progress, the interfaces and tools available to build an OpenStack hybrid cloud aren't as complete or effective as many IT pros would like.
There's also some disconnect between OpenStack and other cloud platforms. For example, tensions exist between members of the OpenStack community when it comes to interfacing the platform with public cloud giant Amazon Web Services (AWS). Rather than making Nova -- one of the OpenStack modules -- compatible with AWS' Elastic Compute Cloud (EC2) interface, OpenStack is heading toward a native application program interface (API), and the resulting interface to EC2 lags behind AWS features. This is a big enough issue that Cloudscaling, owned by EMC, released a replacement for the existing Nova EC2 API in StackForge, a code repository, in an effort to drive compatibility.
Tensions exist between members of the OpenStack community when it comes to interfacing the platform with public cloud giant Amazon Web Services.
These challenges are likely to pop up in an open source project. And while this tension, for now, continues to make integration difficult for an OpenStack hybrid cloud, here are some key considerations and best practices for using the platform alongside a public cloud like AWS.
The lifeblood of cloud is configuration management in the form of scripts. Ideally, cloud admins could use OpenStack scripts to configure AWS and other public cloud workloads. OpenStack's Heat module aims for this, but, like Nova, it seems to be moving toward native APIs. A single tool to manage these scripts would help organizations avoid the extra work, time and inevitable manual errors that occur when copying scripts back and forth across platforms. And, from a governance point of view, synchronization between clouds is crucial.
OpenStack and AWS offer some similar services, which helps with integration efforts. For example, when selecting images, each stack has its own library of certified image solutions. Picking images that appear in both could help with integration.
In terms of storage, OpenStack users can deploy a broad set of alternatives to underlie its Swift and Cinder storage modules. With AWS, the choices are more limited; users can choose between Amazon Elastic Block Storage for block storage, or Simple Storage Service for object storage. While it's relatively easy to interface between OpenStack and AWS storage, it gets complicated when organizations maintain the same data in their public and private clouds.
One complication, for example, is synchronization. The interface between OpenStack and AWS is relatively slow and low bandwidth. Simple approaches such as writing data to both clouds are too slow to support many types of operations, so alternatives to protect against asynchronicity are a must.
With low WAN speeds, maintaining performance within an AWS and OpenStack hybrid cloud requires as much data duplication across both clouds as possible. This is easier to do with data that can be batch updated or that is low volatility. In addition, it's a best practice to not close down storage systems when exiting the public cloud after cloud bursting.
Data that needs to be synchronized in near real time is a different matter. Most likely, you will want to keep this data in-house, and when the public cloud accesses that data, encrypt the data stream.
Another option is to rent storage space at a telco data center, where the connections to the public cloud are faster. However, because this could slow down in-house operations, depending on the speed of connections to the telco, this model works best when the telco data center is nearby.
When it comes to deploying and managing an OpenStack hybrid cloud, there are tools that can help. Red Hat, for example, is extending its ManageIQ management tool to work with hybrid clouds. This should help provide a single view for configuration and setup across public and private clouds. CloudForms, also from Red Hat, aims to federate OpenStack with all the major public clouds.
The big cloud providers are also interested in the hybrid market. Microsoft now offers Azure Stack, and AWS seems willing to offer a similar "cloud-in-a-box" to its larger customers, such as the CIA. These providers also have internal tools that can help with integration, and other services and software packages will make hybridization easier over the next year or so.
There's a lot to be done. Cloud management tools lag behind the rest of the market, according to Garter. But progress is being made, and hybrid deployment -- including those related to OpenStack -- will improve immensely over the next couple of years.
How have you handled OpenStack hybrid cloud challenges?

tokenized:
Many IT pros still have a long wish list when it comes to building a hybrid cloud with OpenStack and public cloud providers like AWS .
 which uses the open source cloud platform for internal or private cloud operations , and one of the three major cloud providers -- Amazon Web Services , Google or Microsoft Azure -- for the public cloud segment .
 However , as OpenStack is still a work in progress , the interfaces and tools available to build an OpenStack hybrid cloud are n't as complete or effective as many IT pros would like .
 There 's also some disconnect between OpenStack and other cloud platforms . For example , tensions exist between members of the OpenStack community when it comes to interfacing the platform with public cloud giant Amazon Web Services ( AWS ) . Rather than making Nova -- one of the OpenStack modules -- compatible with AWS ' Elastic Compute Cloud ( EC2 ) interface , OpenStack is heading toward a native application program interface ( API ) , and the resulting interface to EC2 lags behind AWS features . This is a big enough issue that Cloudscaling , owned by EMC , released a replacement for the existing Nova EC2 API in StackForge , a code repository , in an effort to drive compatibility .
 Tensions exist between members of the OpenStack community when it comes to interfacing the platform with public cloud giant Amazon Web Services .
 These challenges are likely to pop up in an open source project . And while this tension , for now , continues to make integration difficult for an OpenStack hybrid cloud , here are some key considerations and best practices for using the platform alongside a public cloud like AWS .
 The lifeblood of cloud is configuration management in the form of scripts . Ideally , cloud admins could use OpenStack scripts to configure AWS and other public cloud workloads . OpenStack 's Heat module aims for this , but , like Nova , it seems to be moving toward native APIs . A single tool to manage these scripts would help organizations avoid the extra work , time and inevitable manual errors that occur when copying scripts back and forth across platforms . And , from a governance point of view , synchronization between clouds is crucial .
 OpenStack and AWS offer some similar services , which helps with integration efforts . For example , when selecting images , each stack has its own library of certified image solutions . Picking images that appear in both could help with integration .
 In terms of storage , OpenStack users can deploy a broad set of alternatives to underlie its Swift and Cinder storage modules . With AWS , the choices are more limited ; users can choose between Amazon Elastic Block Storage for block storage , or Simple Storage Service for object storage . While it 's relatively easy to interface between OpenStack and AWS storage , it gets complicated when organizations maintain the same data in their public and private clouds .
 One complication , for example , is synchronization . The interface between OpenStack and AWS is relatively slow and low bandwidth . Simple approaches such as writing data to both clouds are too slow to support many types of operations , so alternatives to protect against asynchronicity are a must .
 With low WAN speeds , maintaining performance within an AWS and OpenStack hybrid cloud requires as much data duplication across both clouds as possible . This is easier to do with data that can be batch updated or that is low volatility . In addition , it 's a best practice to not close down storage systems when exiting the public cloud after cloud bursting .
 Data that needs to be synchronized in near real time is a different matter . Most likely , you will want to keep this data in - house , and when the public cloud accesses that data , encrypt the data stream .
 Another option is to rent storage space at a telco data center , where the connections to the public cloud are faster . However , because this could slow down in - house operations , depending on the speed of connections to the telco , this model works best when the telco data center is nearby .
 When it comes to deploying and managing an OpenStack hybrid cloud , there are tools that can help . Red Hat , for example , is extending its ManageIQ management tool to work with hybrid clouds . This should help provide a single view for configuration and setup across public and private clouds . CloudForms , also from Red Hat , aims to federate OpenStack with all the major public clouds .
 The big cloud providers are also interested in the hybrid market . Microsoft now offers Azure Stack , and AWS seems willing to offer a similar " cloud - in - a - box " to its larger customers , such as the CIA . These providers also have internal tools that can help with integration , and other services and software packages will make hybridization easier over the next year or so .
 There 's a lot to be done . Cloud management tools lag behind the rest of the market , according to Garter . But progress is being made , and hybrid deployment -- including those related to OpenStack -- will improve immensely over the next couple of years .
 How have you handled OpenStack hybrid cloud challenges ?


text:
As a member of the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment’s Commercialisation Partner Network, KiwiNet administers PreSeed investment. PreSeed funding is used to turn science discoveries into commercially viable products and services.
In addition to devolved contract holders, MBIE has set aside some “non-devolved” PreSeed for those that don’t hold devolved contracts to advance commercialisation projects to a point of investor-readiness.
MIBE's non-devolved PreSeed Accelerator Fund is now open for applications.
The goal of PreSeed is to support publicly funded research organisations to undertake early stage commercialisation activities.
Non-devolved PreSeed is specifically for publicly funded research organisations who do not hold devolved PreSeed contracts and has the additional goal of helping those organisations to build their commercialisation capabilities.
Funding is available on demand until 30 June 2019 and there is up to $879,898 available. This is an increased amount compared to the past three years, recognising the growing importance of these activities and the successes that have been achieved to date.
For information on how to apply, please contact KiwiNet.
Templates and Forms for Engaging with the KiwiNet Investment Committee.

tokenized:
As a member of the Ministry of Business , Innovation and Employment ’s Commercialisation Partner Network , KiwiNet administers PreSeed investment . PreSeed funding is used to turn science discoveries into commercially viable products and services .
 In addition to devolved contract holders , MBIE has set aside some “ non - devolved ” PreSeed for those that do n’t hold devolved contracts to advance commercialisation projects to a point of investor - readiness .
 MIBE 's non - devolved PreSeed Accelerator Fund is now open for applications .
 The goal of PreSeed is to support publicly funded research organisations to undertake early stage commercialisation activities .
 Non - devolved PreSeed is specifically for publicly funded research organisations who do not hold devolved PreSeed contracts and has the additional goal of helping those organisations to build their commercialisation capabilities .
 Funding is available on demand until 30 June 2019 and there is up to $ 879,898 available . This is an increased amount compared to the past three years , recognising the growing importance of these activities and the successes that have been achieved to date .
 For information on how to apply , please contact KiwiNet .
 Templates and Forms for Engaging with the KiwiNet Investment Committee .


text:
By Madison Montana One advantage of short-selling is that an active investor can be profitable in a rising or falling market environment. In uncertain markets one can use shorting to hedge against long positions. This is particularly beneficial when Political, Market or Idiosyncratic Risk is present in the trading environment.
After a trader presses the sell button what actually happens?
A trader sell order goes to his/her broker. Then, the broker checks to see if the stock is in the trader’s account. If not, the broker classifies it as a “short-sell.” He then checks his company’s inventory of stocks to short and the subsequent amount of shares available. He identifies shares available either in the company’s inventory or a client account. At which time, he “lends” the shares to the trader and credits his/her account with the revenues from the sale. Now, the trader is “short” the stock. Note: This is laborious in theory, but it is all automated in real-time.
Why would you short a stock?
You believe that the stock is extended technically or that information is coming (or in existence) that will pressure the stock price and cause investors to take profits on their long positions. Such information could include: an analyst downgrade, bad earnings, tighter industry/government regulations, increased competition, change in management, global or macro conditions which could potentially impact the sector negatively and potentially your position; et’al.
Shorting a stock is very risky, and not suitable for all investors, as the market has an upward bias. A stock price could go up forever and could create unlimited liability to the short-seller, exceeding the capital in his/her trading account. Whereas, a trader that employs a long-only strategy caps his loss at the capital in his account.
Margin Trading: Short-Selling a stock involves using “borrowed money,” otherwise known as margin trading. If your account slips below the minimum margin level, one will be subject to a margin call and forced to put in more cash or liquidate the position. If a trader does not have the discipline, strict risk management rules, employ stops and a scaling methodology, margin requirements can become quite lofty. An alternative to shorting a stock is the employment of a put option strategy. Using put options achieves the same bias as the short seller, but with defined risk. Using options has seen an increase in volume growth over the past few years. However, employing puts strategies may not be suitable for all, as it has its own set of risks and learning curve.
“Short Squeeze” Risk phenomena: This occurs when a stock starts to rise and a large % of the stock’s float is short, the short-sellers will try to cover their positions simultaneously and the pressure of the buy orders forces the stock price to rise quickly to undefined levels. A few examples would be a dividend announcement (as the short-seller is required to pay the dividend), a positive announcement by the company, or a change of sentiment in the stock, sector or market.
High frequency, dark pools and algos are real and present in the market and once triggered, they can have a similar effect.
Capitulation by the buyers at specific price level.
Confirmation of Up Trend Extended on Multiple Time Frames for confirmation – Using longer term time frames for support and resistance levels, and identification of an up-trend that breaks below prior day/week/month lows and makes a new low.
Although stocks have the potential to go up forever we have seen several companies file for bankruptcy, leaving their investors holding the ball. Traders that understand the risks involved and the discipline that is required to short sell can make nice profits quickly in a declining market or stock price.
Thereby, short-selling is a great tool to have in any trading tool box, to profit when markets are down trending and to hedge long positions in an uncertain market. But, it is risky and requires discipline and an obedience of stops. As stated, this trading strategy requires strong discipline and the ability to assess market conditions in real-time. Risk is elevated when holding a short overnight, so know your time frame.
Personally, I enjoy a challenge, as taking on a short, keeps me in the game. Every day, I need to assess the market condition and what are the potential risks that may impact my position. Thanks for reading.
About Madison Montana: Manage funds for clients & self. Interested in quality stocks with liquidity. Enjoy ideas from $$ oriented & serious traders.

tokenized:
By Madison Montana One advantage of short - selling is that an active investor can be profitable in a rising or falling market environment . In uncertain markets one can use shorting to hedge against long positions . This is particularly beneficial when Political , Market or Idiosyncratic Risk is present in the trading environment .
 After a trader presses the sell button what actually happens ?
 A trader sell order goes to his / her broker . Then , the broker checks to see if the stock is in the trader ’s account . If not , the broker classifies it as a “ short - sell . ” He then checks his company ’s inventory of stocks to short and the subsequent amount of shares available . He identifies shares available either in the company ’s inventory or a client account . At which time , he “ lends ” the shares to the trader and credits his / her account with the revenues from the sale . Now , the trader is “ short ” the stock . Note : This is laborious in theory , but it is all automated in real - time .
 Why would you short a stock ?
 You believe that the stock is extended technically or that information is coming ( or in existence ) that will pressure the stock price and cause investors to take profits on their long positions . Such information could include : an analyst downgrade , bad earnings , tighter industry / government regulations , increased competition , change in management , global or macro conditions which could potentially impact the sector negatively and potentially your position ; et’al .
 Shorting a stock is very risky , and not suitable for all investors , as the market has an upward bias . A stock price could go up forever and could create unlimited liability to the short - seller , exceeding the capital in his / her trading account . Whereas , a trader that employs a long - only strategy caps his loss at the capital in his account .
 Margin Trading : Short - Selling a stock involves using “ borrowed money , ” otherwise known as margin trading . If your account slips below the minimum margin level , one will be subject to a margin call and forced to put in more cash or liquidate the position . If a trader does not have the discipline , strict risk management rules , employ stops and a scaling methodology , margin requirements can become quite lofty . An alternative to shorting a stock is the employment of a put option strategy . Using put options achieves the same bias as the short seller , but with defined risk . Using options has seen an increase in volume growth over the past few years . However , employing puts strategies may not be suitable for all , as it has its own set of risks and learning curve .
 “ Short Squeeze ” Risk phenomena : This occurs when a stock starts to rise and a large % of the stock ’s float is short , the short - sellers will try to cover their positions simultaneously and the pressure of the buy orders forces the stock price to rise quickly to undefined levels . A few examples would be a dividend announcement ( as the short - seller is required to pay the dividend ) , a positive announcement by the company , or a change of sentiment in the stock , sector or market .
 High frequency , dark pools and algos are real and present in the market and once triggered , they can have a similar effect .
 Capitulation by the buyers at specific price level .
 Confirmation of Up Trend Extended on Multiple Time Frames for confirmation – Using longer term time frames for support and resistance levels , and identification of an up - trend that breaks below prior day / week / month lows and makes a new low .
 Although stocks have the potential to go up forever we have seen several companies file for bankruptcy , leaving their investors holding the ball . Traders that understand the risks involved and the discipline that is required to short sell can make nice profits quickly in a declining market or stock price .
 Thereby , short - selling is a great tool to have in any trading tool box , to profit when markets are down trending and to hedge long positions in an uncertain market . But , it is risky and requires discipline and an obedience of stops . As stated , this trading strategy requires strong discipline and the ability to assess market conditions in real - time . Risk is elevated when holding a short overnight , so know your time frame .
 Personally , I enjoy a challenge , as taking on a short , keeps me in the game . Every day , I need to assess the market condition and what are the potential risks that may impact my position . Thanks for reading .
 About Madison Montana : Manage funds for clients & self . Interested in quality stocks with liquidity . Enjoy ideas from $ $ oriented & serious traders .


text: With nearly every album ever made being reissued on CD, it’s logical that nearly every predigital band that ever broke up is coming out of the waxworks to reunite. Is everything old really new again? Don’t ask Emerson, Lake & Palmer, whose merry-go-round-from-hell ’70s art rock sounds remarkably well preserved on Black Moon — not good, mind you, just well preserved. Keith Emerson, Überlord of keyboard excess, hurls enough sonic M-80s at Prokofiev’s ”Romeo and Juliet” to make piano teachers everywhere duck — which probably has always been the point.

tokenized: With nearly every album ever made being reissued on CD , it ’s logical that nearly every predigital band that ever broke up is coming out of the waxworks to reunite . Is everything old really new again ? Do n’t ask Emerson , Lake & Palmer , whose merry - go - round - from - hell ’ 70s art rock sounds remarkably well preserved on Black Moon — not good , mind you , just well preserved . Keith Emerson , Überlord of keyboard excess , hurls enough sonic M-80s at Prokofiev ’s ” Romeo and Juliet ” to make piano teachers everywhere duck — which probably has always been the point .


text:
An attractive tile hung detached 3 bedroom house situated in a small side road in the village of Punnetts Town. The accommodation features a large re-modelled kitchen/breakfast room sitting room with wood burning stove, separate dining room, study and hobby room. The master bedroom has a large en-suite bath & separate shower and walk in storage room. There is a good sized single garage and own driveway and a private garden to the rear.
ENCLOSED PORCH: Double glazed windows. Quarry Tiled Floor.
ENTRANCE HALL: Part glazed door & side window. Picture Rail. Radiator.
SITTING ROOM: Double glazed window. Feature fire place with wood burning stove and wooden fire surround. Picture Rail. Built in display cupboard.
RE-MODELLED KITCHEN/BREAKFAST ROOM: Double glazed window and door to garden. Range of grey fronted matching wall & base cupboards. Wood worktops with inset induction hob and filter hood above. Breakfast bar. Built in double oven. Space for washing machine, fridge/freezer & dishwasher. Coved ceiling. Radiator.
DINING ROOM: Double glazed window overlooking the garden. Picture rail. Wooden floor. Radiator.
STUDY: Double glazed window overlooking the garden. Floor mounted boiler.
CLOAKROOM: WC. Corner wash basin. Radiator.
INTEGRAL GARAGE: Up & over door. Built in personal door. Light & power. Mezzanine storage area.
STAIRS TO LANDING: Double glazed window. Access to loft.
BEDROOM 1: Double glazed windows overlooking the garden. Picture rail. Two built in cupboards. Radiator.
WALK IN STORAGE ROOM: Double glazed 'Velux' window. Eaves storage cupboard. Radiator.
BEDROOM 2: Double glazed window. Picture rail. Radiator.
BEDROOM 3: Double glazed window. Picture rail. Radiator.
SHOWER ROOM: Double glazed window. WC. Pedestal wash basin. Shower cubicle with electric shower. Part tiled walls. Radiator.
OUTSIDE: The property is approached via a gated entrance leading to a brick set driveway and the garage. There is a secluded garden to the rear which is mainly laid to lawn with flower & shrub borders. Timber shed. Paved patio. Greenhouse. Oil tank.

tokenized:
An attractive tile hung detached 3 bedroom house situated in a small side road in the village of Punnetts Town . The accommodation features a large re - modelled kitchen / breakfast room sitting room with wood burning stove , separate dining room , study and hobby room . The master bedroom has a large en - suite bath & separate shower and walk in storage room . There is a good sized single garage and own driveway and a private garden to the rear .
 ENCLOSED PORCH : Double glazed windows . Quarry Tiled Floor .
 ENTRANCE HALL : Part glazed door & side window . Picture Rail . Radiator .
 SITTING ROOM : Double glazed window . Feature fire place with wood burning stove and wooden fire surround . Picture Rail . Built in display cupboard .
 RE - MODELLED KITCHEN / BREAKFAST ROOM : Double glazed window and door to garden . Range of grey fronted matching wall & base cupboards . Wood worktops with inset induction hob and filter hood above . Breakfast bar . Built in double oven . Space for washing machine , fridge / freezer & dishwasher . Coved ceiling . Radiator .
 DINING ROOM : Double glazed window overlooking the garden . Picture rail . Wooden floor . Radiator .
 STUDY : Double glazed window overlooking the garden . Floor mounted boiler .
 CLOAKROOM : WC . Corner wash basin . Radiator .
 INTEGRAL GARAGE : Up & over door . Built in personal door . Light & power . Mezzanine storage area .
 STAIRS TO LANDING : Double glazed window . Access to loft .
 BEDROOM 1 : Double glazed windows overlooking the garden . Picture rail . Two built in cupboards . Radiator .
 WALK IN STORAGE ROOM : Double glazed ' Velux ' window . Eaves storage cupboard . Radiator .
 BEDROOM 2 : Double glazed window . Picture rail . Radiator .
 BEDROOM 3 : Double glazed window . Picture rail . Radiator .
 SHOWER ROOM : Double glazed window . WC . Pedestal wash basin . Shower cubicle with electric shower . Part tiled walls . Radiator .
 OUTSIDE : The property is approached via a gated entrance leading to a brick set driveway and the garage . There is a secluded garden to the rear which is mainly laid to lawn with flower & shrub borders . Timber shed . Paved patio . Greenhouse . Oil tank .


text:
One for me please. Confirmation number OXN24540J5799370X.
2 for me please Mu. Payment Sent (Unique Transaction ID #1BU26517H5194281Y).
can we have 2 please?
I found Angie if you go to the www.paypal.com webpage and sign in it will look like it. I can never find it on the donate button.
I would like 2 please, will come back with confirmation number.
If you go to pay by Paypal via the donate button there doesn't seem to be a way to send money as a gift, I have had to go into paypal as a seperate Google search and then sign in and then the Personal and Gift page is there but definately wasn't there if I want to go via the Donate button on the front page.
Sue ...can you drop mine off to please... .............you know how your maps work..
Im only a few inches up North..
...p.s...soz havent ordered yet waiting for my pension to go in.on 15th.
All calanders that were ordered and paid for have been sent out today (2nd class) so hopefully everyone should get them by Friday at the latest.
If you have ordered and paid for a calander and do not recieve it by next Monday (14th Nov) Please pm Mulan with the date that you paid and she will look into it.
Thank you all for your continued support, And please feel free to post on this thread telling other members about your new Calanders.
Have received mine today and it's every bit as good as I hoped it would be. Would definitely recommend to others.
recieved mine today,one is staying here and one to my mum and the third is going to my friend in america. thankyou very much for the time and effort put in to producing them.
Received the calendar today, many thanks.
Received mine yesterday. Will pm admin about my correct postcode just in case you need to send me anything in the future.
i have orderd 4 calanders couldnt resit them .order number 20c945414B319793W ALL THE BEST SYBIL .
sybil owen wrote: i have orderd 4 calanders couldnt resit them .order number 20c945414B319793W ALL THE BEST SYBIL .
Hi Sybil hope you and Roxy are well. Boon on treatment for his tummmy again at the moment.
my daughter orderd the calanders as she has a paypal account,i didnt know if they would go to her address or mine .
Send a private message to Mulan in admin about it Sybil. They might not have been posted yet. Then at least you will know where they are going to.
He is a little beastie nessie always getting hold of nawty things to eat.
I put Boon's photo on for Roxy as they are brother and sister.

tokenized:
One for me please . Confirmation number OXN24540J5799370X.
 2 for me please Mu . Payment Sent ( Unique Transaction ID # 1BU26517H5194281Y ) .
 can we have 2 please ?
 I found Angie if you go to the www.paypal.com webpage and sign in it will look like it . I can never find it on the donate button .
 I would like 2 please , will come back with confirmation number .
 If you go to pay by Paypal via the donate button there does n't seem to be a way to send money as a gift , I have had to go into paypal as a seperate Google search and then sign in and then the Personal and Gift page is there but definately was n't there if I want to go via the Donate button on the front page .
 Sue ... can you drop mine off to please ... ............. you know how your maps work ..
 I m only a few inches up North ..
 ... p.s ... soz have nt ordered yet waiting for my pension to go in.on 15th .
 All calanders that were ordered and paid for have been sent out today ( 2nd class ) so hopefully everyone should get them by Friday at the latest .
 If you have ordered and paid for a calander and do not recieve it by next Monday ( 14th Nov ) Please pm Mulan with the date that you paid and she will look into it .
 Thank you all for your continued support , And please feel free to post on this thread telling other members about your new Calanders .
 Have received mine today and it 's every bit as good as I hoped it would be . Would definitely recommend to others .
 recieved mine today , one is staying here and one to my mum and the third is going to my friend in america . thankyou very much for the time and effort put in to producing them .
 Received the calendar today , many thanks .
 Received mine yesterday . Will pm admin about my correct postcode just in case you need to send me anything in the future .
 i have orderd 4 calanders could nt resit them .order number 20c945414B319793W ALL THE BEST SYBIL .
 sybil owen wrote : i have orderd 4 calanders could nt resit them .order number 20c945414B319793W ALL THE BEST SYBIL .
 Hi Sybil hope you and Roxy are well . Boon on treatment for his tummmy again at the moment .
 my daughter orderd the calanders as she has a paypal account , i did nt know if they would go to her address or mine .
 Send a private message to Mulan in admin about it Sybil . They might not have been posted yet . Then at least you will know where they are going to .
 He is a little beastie nessie always getting hold of nawty things to eat .
 I put Boon 's photo on for Roxy as they are brother and sister .


text:
Eight items of literary works published on the Internet will join another 170 novels to compete for the Mao Dun Literature Prize, one of China’s most prestigious literary awards, according to the Chinese Writers Association (CWA).
This is the first time that Internet novels have been accepted as qualified candidates for the prize, which is awarded to no more than five novels every four years.
The winners will be selected after two rounds of voting from a committee of 62 judges.
Recent years have shown a growing trend of Internet-based publication of literary works in China, whose number of Internet users climbed to 477 million this year.
In an earlier talk with media, Chen Qirong, a spokesman with the CWA, said that by opening the doors for Internet novels, China’s awards have begun to recognize the influence of Internet literature.
This news excerpt is a bit misleading.
Yes, novels originally published on the Internet are, in a break with tradition, eligible for nomination. However -- as I understand it -- they must later have been printed as a book and sold at bookstores.
If you think this is incorrect, please comment below.
Bruce , June 23, 2011, 12:41a.m.
If that is indeeed the case (and I have no idea whether or not it is...will try to ask around and find out, though) what makes Internet novels different from conventional novels? Sort of makes the distinction moot.
Cindy Carter, June 27, 2011, 10:53a.m.
@Cindy What makes Internet novels different from conventional novels?
The author can get feedback from the readership before writing the next chapter and change the story accordingly, or even include the feedback verbatim in later writing. Chengdu, Leave Me Alone Tonight is an example of the former, and Liu Liu's 《心术》actually cites netizens' online comments in the body of the text.
If you publish at one of the ubiquitous free platforms for creative writing, such as those run by Shanda Literature, you don't have to persuade a publisher that you have written a marketable book, and your copy won't be edited/censored by someone twice your age who probably doesn't even use the Internet anyway.
Obviously the Mao Dun prize folks are still very nervous about allowing writing first published online to compete direct with a novel first published in hard copy. But I think I have answered your question above clearly. Writing for publication online is obviously a less inhibiting and more interactive experience!
Bruce Humes, June 27, 2011, 7:28p.m.
Good points. So if the criteria for an Internet novel to be considered for the Mao Dun prize is simply that it must later have been printed as a book and sold at bookstores, the process of writing, editing, developing, disseminating and creating a following for an online novel remains unaltered. You can have all the advantages of writing and developing your novel on the Internet, and still submit it to what is essentially a traditional text-based, publication-focused literary prize. Case in point (albeit a case which will be never considered for the Mao Dun Prize, for obvious political reasons) is Ai Weiwei's blog book 此时此地: all of the posts originated from his blog, and were later compiled and edited and published in pulp form.
Cindy Carter, July 19, 2011, 12:33p.m.
Cindy Carter, July 19, 2011, 12:51p.m.

tokenized:
Eight items of literary works published on the Internet will join another 170 novels to compete for the Mao Dun Literature Prize , one of China ’s most prestigious literary awards , according to the Chinese Writers Association ( CWA ) .
 This is the first time that Internet novels have been accepted as qualified candidates for the prize , which is awarded to no more than five novels every four years .
 The winners will be selected after two rounds of voting from a committee of 62 judges .
 Recent years have shown a growing trend of Internet - based publication of literary works in China , whose number of Internet users climbed to 477 million this year .
 In an earlier talk with media , Chen Qirong , a spokesman with the CWA , said that by opening the doors for Internet novels , China ’s awards have begun to recognize the influence of Internet literature .
 This news excerpt is a bit misleading .
 Yes , novels originally published on the Internet are , in a break with tradition , eligible for nomination . However -- as I understand it -- they must later have been printed as a book and sold at bookstores .
 If you think this is incorrect , please comment below .
 Bruce , June 23 , 2011 , 12:41a.m .
 If that is indeeed the case ( and I have no idea whether or not it is ... will try to ask around and find out , though ) what makes Internet novels different from conventional novels ? Sort of makes the distinction moot .
 Cindy Carter , June 27 , 2011 , 10:53a.m .
 @Cindy What makes Internet novels different from conventional novels ?
 The author can get feedback from the readership before writing the next chapter and change the story accordingly , or even include the feedback verbatim in later writing . Chengdu , Leave Me Alone Tonight is an example of the former , and Liu Liu 's 《 心术》actually cites netizens ' online comments in the body of the text .
 If you publish at one of the ubiquitous free platforms for creative writing , such as those run by Shanda Literature , you do n't have to persuade a publisher that you have written a marketable book , and your copy wo n't be edited / censored by someone twice your age who probably does n't even use the Internet anyway .
 Obviously the Mao Dun prize folks are still very nervous about allowing writing first published online to compete direct with a novel first published in hard copy . But I think I have answered your question above clearly . Writing for publication online is obviously a less inhibiting and more interactive experience !
 Bruce Humes , June 27 , 2011 , 7:28p.m .
 Good points . So if the criteria for an Internet novel to be considered for the Mao Dun prize is simply that it must later have been printed as a book and sold at bookstores , the process of writing , editing , developing , disseminating and creating a following for an online novel remains unaltered . You can have all the advantages of writing and developing your novel on the Internet , and still submit it to what is essentially a traditional text - based , publication - focused literary prize . Case in point ( albeit a case which will be never considered for the Mao Dun Prize , for obvious political reasons ) is Ai Weiwei 's blog book 此时此地 : all of the posts originated from his blog , and were later compiled and edited and published in pulp form .
 Cindy Carter , July 19 , 2011 , 12:33p.m .
 Cindy Carter , July 19 , 2011 , 12:51p.m .


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Rationalist Judaism: "Nu, So What Did You Think Of My Alps?"
As I mentioned, I'm currently in the Italian Alps for a few days, giving some lectures, and today, I went horseback riding. It is bitterly cold, and I have a bitter cold, but I did not want to miss the opportunity. Now, riding a horse is not one of my skills (I’ve spent more time riding elephants), and the horse that I was given was a huge and feisty stallion who seemed as though he was auditioning for Tolkien’s Riders of Rohan; I was the only person in my group who was given a switch in order to impose discipline if necessary. However, he didn’t throw me off and he was obedient, at least for most of time. We made our way through the tiny, narrow streets of a rustic village, then up the hills through snow-encrusted countryside, with the gigantic white Alps looming around us. It was incredible.
The experience reminded me of something that I wrote about fifteen years ago, back when I was Nosson Slifkin. At the time, I was grappling with two stories which appeared contradictory. The first concerned the late Manchester Rosh Yeshivah, Rabbi Yehudah Zev Segal (whose daughter was my elementary school teacher, so I guess that makes me an indirect talmid of his!). The story is told that Rav Segal was once traveling in Manhattan, and his companions suggested that they take a detour in order to see the famous Empire State Building.
Fifteen years ago, these stories presented a contradiction that bothered me. In classical yeshivah fashion, I reasoned that the contradiction could be resolved. The Empire State Building is a man-made creation, and thus there is no reason to admire it. The Alps, on the other hand, are God’s own handiwork. Thus, there is no difference between Rav Segal and Rav Hirsch.
Fifteen years later, I’m not dismissing the possibility that this resolution is valid, but I am more open to acknowledging the likelihood that the stories reflect a fundamental difference between these two great Torah scholars. I can think of two ways in which to explain the nature of this difference.
One possibility is that these stories reflect two different approaches within Judaism. Rav Segal was of a particular ultra-Orthodox ideology in which Torah—the pursuit of God’s wisdom and commands—is of paramount interest, to the point where it is virtually of exclusive interest. Neglecting the pursuit of Torah and mitzvos, even for a short time, merely to appreciate a wondrous sight, would be inexcusable. Rav Hirsch, on the other hand, was of the Torah im derech eretz school of thought, in which a Jew’s life is enriched by appreciating the wonders of the world—be they God’s creations, or the creations of man, with his ingenious application of his God-given brain.
Another possibility (perhaps related to the previous one) is that these stories reflect the different origins of Rav Segal and Rav Hirsch. There’s a hilarious satirical news story about a person in New York for whom all therapy had failed to cure his chronic miserable attitude, and he was about to undergo a lobotomy, when at the last moment the surgeon realized that there was nothing clinically wrong with the person; he was, in fact, from Manchester. I spent the first seventeen years of my life there, so I can see why it might have caused Rav Segal to have little interest in sightseeing. A miserable, grey, industrial and very provincial town, Manchester tends to produce cynical people who have little interest in the wider world. Rav Hirsch, on the other hand, was from a very different culture.
So, there are three possible explanations for the differing attitudes of Rav Segal and Rav Hirsch. I’ll have to contemplate the matter further before deciding what my attitude should be with regard to man-made wonders. But meanwhile, I’m glad that I braved the cold and my cold to ride through the mountains. When God asks me what I thought of His alps, I’m going to tell Him that they are terrific.
Horses are pretty awesome, too.
Nu, So What Did You Think Of My Lord of The Rings? My La Boheme? My 5th Symphony in C Minor? My Mona Lisa? My Madame Bovary? My ... Lipa Concert?
I'm sure that both Rav Segal and Rav Hirsch would agree that you make a bracha on seeing Alps and no bracha on seeing the ESB (unless you are an architecture nerd - shehecheyanu).
Is there really a stira?
I think that Rav Hirsch would have been interested to see the Empire State Building.
We say a bracha Chonen Hadaas, which I always think of when I see a wonder of the world like the Empire State Building. Hashem gave the architects and engineers the wisdom to build them, didn't he?
(Even more so the George Washington Bridge, which is breathtaking but unfortuately pedestrian to those of us who see it on a very regular basis. And read Robert Caro's biography of Robert Moses to find out just what miracles of engineering went into building the Cross Bronx Expressway).
And Baruch Shechalak Mechachmaso Lebasar Vedam.
"back when I was Nosson Slifkin"
The Mishnah in Avos says that if you're travelling along and learning, and you see a tree or a ploughed field and stop learning to say "Wow, what a great tree" or "Wow, what a great ploughed field" you've done very badly.
Why a ploughed field as opposed to just a field? Why a ploughed field as opposed to a nice mountain?
The tree is natural, a product of God's handiwork. The ploughed field is a testament to the hard work of man to develop the natural world God gave us. Admiration of both the natural and the man-made must come second to Torah. Perhaps that's why the Manchester Rav had no interest in the ESB.
But maybe Rav Shimshon Rafael Hirsch was riding through the Alps on the same horse as you and couldn't concentrate on his learning so he had time to look?
"And Baruch Shechalak Mechachmaso Lebasar Vedam."
You say that on the ESB??
Not to mention that some (most?) architectonic wonders were build in connection with avodah zarah.
I wish I knew how to ride a horse. My mother tells me that my father was quite adept at riding horses.
My personal take is that seeing a great man-made structure is an extension of seeing G-d-made structures since isn't it G-d who created man, his wisdom, and the potential to create such structures?
R.NS: "And Baruch Shechalak Mechachmaso Lebasar Vedam."
The הכרת הטוב: Manchester has given us many Nobel Laureates, including 2 physicists in 2010, as well as many other precious חכמי אומות העולם.
I know one of Rav Hirsch's great-granddaughters who insists that Rav Hirsch's name is not Shimshon. She says it's Samson or Shamshon, but not Shimshon. Just thought I'd let you know.
You say: "I think that Rav Hirsch would have been interested to see the Empire State Building."
--Hagyan (or 'הגיין'), who is authenticated by his Google profile.
A fourth option: Perhaps RSRH enjoyed sights like the Alps, and used his vort to justify going out of his way to see them, and perhaps Rabbi Yehudah Zev Segal wasn’t in the mood to take a detour that day, and used his vort to justify not going to see the Empire State Building.
They don’t contradict each other because each is really a justification for a personal preference that may have been thought up on the spur of the moment rather than a well thought out articulation of a Torah principle.
One of the major characters in the musical "Hair" is a guy from Flushing, Queens, who decides that it would be more interesting to be from Manchester, England!
Six years ago I took my wife to the top of the Empire State Building and offered her an engagement ring. She accepted and we are still married :).
Open a Hirsch Siddur and see Rav Hirsch's commentary to that Mishna.
I was going to bring up that Mishna, but Garnel beat me to it!
Rabbi Slifkin - Great post! A little different than your usual writing and I enjoyed it very much.
Garnel – That mishnah in Pirkei Avos always bothered me, especially because I love nature and nature has a wonderful emotional effect on me. Stopping to appreciate nature enhances my life, and even enhances my learning (like when I was up in the beautiful mountains in the summertime).
I take exception to your disparaging remarks about Manchester. I was born in Manchester and have lived all my life here, yet I have been very fortunate to have seen many of Hashem's great wonders of the world. Nevertheless, when I return from these travels, I always say "It's nice to be home" - in Manchester.
Rav Mordechai Breuer, when teaching the pasuk "Vat'chash'vehu m`at me'Elokim," told the story of Rav Hirsch, and continued that in the spirit of the mizmor, one could continue with the question, "did you see my New York?"
We get alot more snow nowadays R'Natan, makes Manchester a little brighter!
Why complicate things? Two people had two different personalities and interests. My son once asked me if I allow him to be interested in beetles (he was six at the time, and I think a combination of seeking a large bug along with a nascent yet emerging sense of independence motivated the question). I told him it's not for me to decide what fascinates him, that's his department. And that's been our understanding since, even to my slight chagrin. He has no interest in Chazzanut or classical music, both of which I am passionate about, and would love share with him. C'est la vie. He's a great kid in almost every other way. The point is that many chareidim see the need to ape EVERY aspect of those great and venerable sages referred to as "Gedolim" If the Gadol eats breakfast at 7:42 a.m., so shall we. If the Gadol ties his necktie in a half windsor knot, so shall we and on and on and on. It's a silly practice. G-d made individuals to be individuals. It means nothing that R. Segal had no interest in seeing a tall building and couched it in Hashkafic terms. Likewise, it means nothing that R. S.R. Hirsch wanted to see the Alps and couched it in similar terms. The only significance of both stories is the message that is common between them: that everything one chooses to do, should be done in service of the Divine, or at least made to appear as such (mitoch shelo lishamh bah lishmah). People are allowed, nay are expected to stylize their lives, and should do so to His glory.
I have a third plausible theory. That the story of Rav Hirsch is pretty well known story and Rav Segal was just being ironically witty. Welcome back.
arn, absorb, follow and do, like nice little programmed androids.
To me it means we will listen and we understand. I remember a discussion in a charedi baal tshuva circle with two talmidei chachomim present, what to do if your rebbe tells you to jump out the window. Guess what? The initial reaction was of course you jump like nice little programmed androids! Then they had a sofek that lechoira the rebbe is telling you to do a dvar aveira, so how can we do it? Some concluded that they have to do it af al pi ken because of emunas chachomim, others needed to be 'meayen'. I concluded that I was in the wrong company and threw the rebbe out the window. Lol.
Poshuter, you change your name every time I out you.
The Wizard, you very perceptively described the fundamental difference between Chareidi hashkafah and non-Chareidi hashkafah.
Even assuming you are correct that only Chareidi hashkafah is lechatchila AND there is no bedeiavad, what does this do for most Jewish people who for various reasons cannot do what the Chareidi hashkafah requires? Is this a form of Protestant predestination, where only an elect have a change to be saved, all others predestined to perish?
IIRC he actually sat on it - I have always wondered about that one (and the companion piece on the ir hanidachat) - shouldn't his testimony have ended the debate (just as one exception to a proposed theorom is enough to kill it)?
G*# makes a good point, that it was probably just an off the cuff remark, not reflective of any grand philosophy. In shas we find many statements that were said "dechayeh madche", ie, just to get an annoying guy off one's back. This happens to many people on a daily basis.
Agav, Charlie Hall's comment, that the Cross Bronx XPway caused so-called environmental damage, is a picture perfect example of liberal "thinking", and demonstrates quite nicely why America is in decline.
Wizard, learn Horiyos and you will see that it is on fact forbidden to follow a teaching that know to be incorrect, even if the whole Sanhedrin tells you to do so. Your intellect (if any) is odif.
Also, Manchester is the epitome is grimness.
"Naaseh v'nishma means we listen, learn, absorb, follow and do, like nice little programmed androids."
Who does the programming? This seems to be a very cogent argument for blaming G-d for one's heresy and misdeeds.
shouldn't his testimony have ended the debate (just as one exception to a proposed theorom is enough to kill it)?
No, he didn't mean literally. What he meant was that it's not drush ve kabel sachar but rather a halacha like other halachos.
G*# makes a good point, that it was probably just an off the cuff remark, not reflective of any grand philosophy.
Bad point - 'sichas chulin of talmidei chachomim tzricha talmud'. If those comments were not said in earnest they would be kalus rosh and leizonus. True talmidei chachomim don't speak lightly of Olam Habo or Yom Hadin.
Charlie Hall, please tell us what environmental and socioeconomic damage was caused.
>IIRC he actually sat on it - I have always wondered about that one (and the companion piece on the ir hanidachat) - shouldn't his testimony have ended the debate (just as one exception to a proposed theorom is enough to kill it)?
Apart from the fact that the Torah says two or three witnesses establish a thing, not one, he was not testifying that he saw a ben sorer u-moreh case, only the grave (likewise 'ir ha-nidachas). Presumably there was a grave which people said was a ben sorer's grave. But how can he have know if it really was? We all know that there are many false graves. Most importantly, it could not have been an authentic grave if historically there never was a ben sorer. Maybe we can never know for sure eiether way, but surely this testimony alone should not have ended the debate.
I don't know why people are bothering to respond to this "Wizard" guy, it's pointless. It's also obvious that it's "Poshiter Yid" with a new moniker.
"Bad point - 'sichas chulin of talmidei chachomim tzricha talmud'. If those comments were not said in earnest they would be kalus rosh and leizonus. True talmidei chachomim don't speak lightly of Olam Habo or Yom Hadin."
"ברוך ... שחלק/שנתן מחכמתו ליראיו" ?
Or how Rambam mentions עונש in ספר המצוות on "את-ה' אלוקיך תירא"? Seems related to me but I'm not sure yet.
I wonder also if carefully observing whether people "don't speak lightly of Olam Habo or Yom Hadin" is how to identify תלמידי חכמים?
"Likewise, it means nothing that R. S.R. Hirsch wanted to see the Alps and couched it in similar terms."
That's why I have always felt bad for yeshivish people who work. Nebech, they feel terrible that the whole day they must do something so mundane as working. When they get home and can learn, they're in heaven. An ideal MO person, however, is happy working since he sees his work as part of his avodas Hashem.
I can't imagine what it must be like to spend eight hours every day of one's life thinking one is essentially wasting one's time or serving some secondary, non-ideal function in G-d's world.
They were making a new psak on ben sorer, such that it became nearly impossible for it to occur. The question is asked: If it will never happen, why is it in the Torah (ie. how can you completely annul something in the Torah)? The response: To learn it and be mekabel schar (iow it can still serve an intellectual purpose).
The testimony regarding the grave of a ben sorer would then be talking about a ben sorer who had been killed according to the previous definition of the halacha. It is probable that it was definitely a ben sorer as otherwise he wouldn't have disrespected the grave by sitting on it.
Well, it seems that she is confused herself as to which one it is. I think that it was pronounced as Shamshon, I heard this pronunciation many times, but written Shimshon. It's a distortion similar to Yankev for Yakov. Just thought I'd let you know.
Oh, I've heard this remark often. It's bizarre, because it automatically assumes that a yid mit a burd has special status or spiritual level. It makes me uncomfortable. But what does this mean when compared to nature? Seems like apples and oranges to me.
Yes, true talmidei chachomim as it says if there is no reverence (for the Almighty) there is no wisdom. But someone other than talmid chochom can also poses it.
This is a very good thought but I hope you agree that it's not the intend of the Mishna?
I think Rabbi Yaakov comes to proclaim the supremacy of Torah. He is talking about hamafsik mimishnoso davka. He is not denying the outside world. This is the pshat imo.
"...(a) peculiar comment in the Talmud Yerushalmi (end of Kiddushin): “A person will in the future [have to] make an accounting for everything that his eye beheld but he did not eat.” "
Wizard: How did you decide whom you were going to mindlessly follow? How did you decide what subjects are beyond your comprehension?
There are plenty of other problems with your comment, mainly that it does not represent Judaism as practiced and understood by virtually all of the Rishonim, but let's start with that question.
see Sanhedrin 71a - ani ritiv vyashavti al kivro - I saw HIM and sat on his grave.
sorer, such that it became nearly impossible for it to occur.
I will have to put on my academic sheitl for this one. Sanhedrin moved out of lishkas hagozis 40 years before the Churban. Rabbi Yonasan was a talmid of Rabbi Akiva so he could not have seen HIM and set on his grave because there was no dinei nefoshos at that time. They were not makink a new psak because it was already impossible for it to occur. This was also the reason why the Jews could not execute Jesus.
shouldn't his testimony have ended the debate (just as one exception to a proposed theorem is enough to kill it)?
Correct conclusions. One has to feel the pulse of the Gemorah what is commonly known as the Svorah. The creative, artistic types have an easier time at it than the scientific types. To me this is the beauty of the Gemorah - the Svorah. Just my opinion fwiw.
RS, the last few posts were excellent!
However, being from the same area of Manchester myself (R' Natan and I were childhood friends) I must say that I also felt that way about the aforementioned "sunny" city until I brought a girl I was engaged to at the time to visit my parents. She looked around (actually we were just passing the Hazeldean Hotel) and said, Manchester is such a pretty place! And you know what, I looked around with new eyes and said, I've never noticed it before, but you're right! Especially Broughton Park (which is where we and Rav Segal grew up). There are some very quaint and pretty houses, nestling amongst abundant greenery. Arresting avenues of old Oaks leading to stately 19th century English buildings. And that's not to mention the English hills which surround Manchester (in which we spent a good amount of our childhood, collecting various creatures and getting rained upon copiously).
I don't think I grew up as one of those "cynical people who have little interest in the wider world" to whom you refer. It's true that most peoples smiles have been eroded by years of constant drizzle, however I would not ascribe Rav Segals approach to the rain. The chareidi worldview runs deeper and longer than that in my opinion.
Mordechai, the link doesn't work.
One bein hazemanim (Yeshivah was in session in the Catskills) some fellows took off some days to do some sightseeing, canoeing, rappelling, whatever. They came back to the Yeshivah, and were hanging around, telling of their exploits.
The Rosh Yeshivah walked in.
They sheepishly explained where they had been,adding that Rav SRH had said that he wants to have an answer to HaShem's question "Have you seen My Alps?"
The Rosh Yeshivah responded "I don't know if He will ask you if you saw His Alps or not; but one thing I do know for sure--He certainly will ask you if you saw His Masseches Eiruvin!
I will have to put on my academic sheitl for this one.
but even an academic (not that i accept academic study c"v :-)) would have to explain why such specific language was used.
Max: It wasn't or isn't a conscious decision. It's a mesorah, just like Torah. Father to son, father to son. Makes it easier that way, too. Tatty says so and so is a gadol, ergo he's a gadol. I heard an audio yesterday of HaRav Gifter, zt"l. He said on the tape that HaRav Shach, zt"l was the Gadol HaDor. That's enough to convince me and the rest of Ortho Jews that he was.
As far as what's beyond comprehension, that's obvious to the indivual, and to the Gedolim as well. When the Gemara says not to learn Kabbala until age 40, that means age 40, not when you decide it's time. And since age 40 at that time a person knew all of shas baal peh, today it should probably be age 80 or not at all. Even your precious Rambam says not to learn about the Mekava except with 1 Talmid Chacham. Yet everyone thinks they can just go ahead and do what they please, because they have reached such glorious heights in the secular world. A PhD in astrophysics in no way qualifies you to learn Kabbala.
This is where feeling the pulse of the Gemorah comes in. Rabbi Yonathan objected to the concept of 'drosh vekabel sachar', and to drive across the point expressed himself in an exaggerated manner common to his period. Trying to explain 'specific language' brings you to being megale ponim shelo kihalocha.
Since you were trying to apply mathematical logic to Talmudic text I am surprised by the c'v. Academic approach is useful for obtaining proper historical, cultural and linguistic understanding of a Talmudic text. If Chovos HaLevovos can use the words of 'amgushi' (a priest of idolatry in the context) to teach us emunah why cannot we learn from the academia? Kabel emes miomra, imo. This is the approach of the rationalist school of thought.
"When the Gemara says not to learn Kabbala until age 40, that means age 40, not when you decide it's time."
Where did you conjure up this quote? Where is Shas does it say this? Or did you hokus pokus it?
Father to son, father to son. Makes it easier that way, too. Tatty says so and so is a gadol, ergo he's a gadol.
Lech lecha ... Mibeis avicho. There is a nice machshova in Likutei Halochos of R. Nosson talmid of R. Nachman. He says that since Torah is eternal this commandment applies to each and every one of us. Every person is brought up with incorrect beliefs due to his environment and parental upbringing. The Torah commands us to abandon our preconceived notions and follow the path of G-d similar to Avraham Avinu.
I dont know the exact daf. Exact sources are not as important to me as they are to you. We Haredim do not need chapter & verse. Someone said that someone said that the Gemara said is plenty good enough.
Mibais avicha only works if you say my father or anyone's father worshipped idols like Avraham's did. But if my father and your father was a ben Torah, then you are not allowed to deviate from his teachings, as it violates kibud av.
I'm sure the heilige R. Slifkin can tell you where it says about 40 years old. Even translating any kabbala sefer into English is a shande, if not a crime altogether. Just beczuse you can walk into the library and read any secular book, does not mean you can do the same with any Torah sefer. There are restrictions. Only a fool would think that if he reads the Artscroll version of Yechezkel that he can understand the Maaseh HaMerkava. Same with reading an English Zohar. Pretentious, chutzpahdik, and criminal.
"We Haredim do not need chapter & verse. Someone said that someone said that the Gemara said is plenty good enough."
You'll have to be a bit less over the top if you want to be convincing.
Same with reading an English Zohar. Pretentious, chutzpahdik, and criminal.
Criminal? No. Criminal is when someone does a crime. Rubashkin, for example, committed a crime when he lied on his collateral declarations to the bank for 10 years straight as was proved in court. Rubashkin also committed a crime when he perjured himself on the stand in court. The yeshivish world seems to get mixed up quite a lot about what is and what is not a crime.
Someone said that someone said that the Gemara said is plenty good enough.
talmid has this to say.
As someone from Manchester and knowing the ROSH very well and Mrs Kupets your elementary teacher, I can only say I dont believe the story. If you read of the Chida travels in London he went to visit the tower. The ROSH was brought up in Manchester and went to a non-frum co-ed Jewish school. He was not the over frum person he is made out to be with no secular knowledge at all. He often went to the alps as well. I think one does a disservice to his great memory writing questionable stories about him.
Then there is the third Alps story.
Rav Kook was stuck in Europe when WW I broke out. His first safe haven was in Switzerland. The Nazir, attempting to cheer him up, took him for a trip in the mountains. When asked if the beauty of the mountains didn't move him, Rav Kook sadly responded "the mountains of Eretz Yisrael speak to me more..."
I have a third plausible theory. That the story of Rav Hirsch is pretty well known story and Rav Segal was just being ironically witty.
Agreed. But this could actually be a minor variation of the 2nd explanation: Rav Segal was negating Rav Hirsch's opinion by quoting him in a mildly sarcastic way.
this system will also be duplicated to post Halloween masks or even fancy dress masks.When Mask my partner and i say mask That means so numerous things, considering that the You will find other kind connected with masks for some other occasions.

tokenized:
Rationalist Judaism : " Nu , So What Did You Think Of My Alps ? "
 As I mentioned , I 'm currently in the Italian Alps for a few days , giving some lectures , and today , I went horseback riding . It is bitterly cold , and I have a bitter cold , but I did not want to miss the opportunity . Now , riding a horse is not one of my skills ( I ’ve spent more time riding elephants ) , and the horse that I was given was a huge and feisty stallion who seemed as though he was auditioning for Tolkien ’s Riders of Rohan ; I was the only person in my group who was given a switch in order to impose discipline if necessary . However , he did n’t throw me off and he was obedient , at least for most of time . We made our way through the tiny , narrow streets of a rustic village , then up the hills through snow - encrusted countryside , with the gigantic white Alps looming around us . It was incredible .
 The experience reminded me of something that I wrote about fifteen years ago , back when I was Nosson Slifkin . At the time , I was grappling with two stories which appeared contradictory . The first concerned the late Manchester Rosh Yeshivah , Rabbi Yehudah Zev Segal ( whose daughter was my elementary school teacher , so I guess that makes me an indirect talmid of his ! ) . The story is told that Rav Segal was once traveling in Manhattan , and his companions suggested that they take a detour in order to see the famous Empire State Building .
 Fifteen years ago , these stories presented a contradiction that bothered me . In classical yeshivah fashion , I reasoned that the contradiction could be resolved . The Empire State Building is a man - made creation , and thus there is no reason to admire it . The Alps , on the other hand , are God ’s own handiwork . Thus , there is no difference between Rav Segal and Rav Hirsch .
 Fifteen years later , I ’m not dismissing the possibility that this resolution is valid , but I am more open to acknowledging the likelihood that the stories reflect a fundamental difference between these two great Torah scholars . I can think of two ways in which to explain the nature of this difference .
 One possibility is that these stories reflect two different approaches within Judaism . Rav Segal was of a particular ultra - Orthodox ideology in which Torah — the pursuit of God ’s wisdom and commands — is of paramount interest , to the point where it is virtually of exclusive interest . Neglecting the pursuit of Torah and mitzvos , even for a short time , merely to appreciate a wondrous sight , would be inexcusable . Rav Hirsch , on the other hand , was of the Torah i m derech eretz school of thought , in which a Jew ’s life is enriched by appreciating the wonders of the world — be they God ’s creations , or the creations of man , with his ingenious application of his God - given brain .
 Another possibility ( perhaps related to the previous one ) is that these stories reflect the different origins of Rav Segal and Rav Hirsch . There ’s a hilarious satirical news story about a person in New York for whom all therapy had failed to cure his chronic miserable attitude , and he was about to undergo a lobotomy , when at the last moment the surgeon realized that there was nothing clinically wrong with the person ; he was , in fact , from Manchester . I spent the first seventeen years of my life there , so I can see why it might have caused Rav Segal to have little interest in sightseeing . A miserable , grey , industrial and very provincial town , Manchester tends to produce cynical people who have little interest in the wider world . Rav Hirsch , on the other hand , was from a very different culture .
 So , there are three possible explanations for the differing attitudes of Rav Segal and Rav Hirsch . I ’ll have to contemplate the matter further before deciding what my attitude should be with regard to man - made wonders . But meanwhile , I ’m glad that I braved the cold and my cold to ride through the mountains . When God asks me what I thought of His alps , I ’m going to tell Him that they are terrific .
 Horses are pretty awesome , too .
 Nu , So What Did You Think Of My Lord of The Rings ? My La Boheme ? My 5th Symphony in C Minor ? My Mona Lisa ? My Madame Bovary ? My ... Lipa Concert ?
 I 'm sure that both Rav Segal and Rav Hirsch would agree that you make a bracha on seeing Alps and no bracha on seeing the ESB ( unless you are an architecture nerd - shehecheyanu ) .
 Is there really a stira ?
 I think that Rav Hirsch would have been interested to see the Empire State Building .
 We say a bracha Chonen Hadaas , which I always think of when I see a wonder of the world like the Empire State Building . Hashem gave the architects and engineers the wisdom to build them , did n't he ?
 ( Even more so the George Washington Bridge , which is breathtaking but unfortuately pedestrian to those of us who see it on a very regular basis . And read Robert Caro 's biography of Robert Moses to find out just what miracles of engineering went into building the Cross Bronx Expressway ) .
 And Baruch Shechalak Mechachmaso Lebasar Vedam .
 " back when I was Nosson Slifkin "
 The Mishnah in Avos says that if you 're travelling along and learning , and you see a tree or a ploughed field and stop learning to say " Wow , what a great tree " or " Wow , what a great ploughed field " you 've done very badly .
 Why a ploughed field as opposed to just a field ? Why a ploughed field as opposed to a nice mountain ?
 The tree is natural , a product of God 's handiwork . The ploughed field is a testament to the hard work of man to develop the natural world God gave us . Admiration of both the natural and the man - made must come second to Torah . Perhaps that 's why the Manchester Rav had no interest in the ESB .
 But maybe Rav Shimshon Rafael Hirsch was riding through the Alps on the same horse as you and could n't concentrate on his learning so he had time to look ?
 " And Baruch Shechalak Mechachmaso Lebasar Vedam . "
 You say that on the ESB ? ?
 Not to mention that some ( most ? ) architectonic wonders were build in connection with avodah zarah .
 I wish I knew how to ride a horse . My mother tells me that my father was quite adept at riding horses .
 My personal take is that seeing a great man - made structure is an extension of seeing G - d - made structures since is n't it G - d who created man , his wisdom , and the potential to create such structures ?
 R.NS : " And Baruch Shechalak Mechachmaso Lebasar Vedam . "
 The הכרת הטוב : Manchester has given us many Nobel Laureates , including 2 physicists in 2010 , as well as many other precious חכמי אומות העולם .
 I know one of Rav Hirsch 's great - granddaughters who insists that Rav Hirsch 's name is not Shimshon . She says it 's Samson or Shamshon , but not Shimshon . Just thought I 'd let you know .
 You say : " I think that Rav Hirsch would have been interested to see the Empire State Building . "
 --Hagyan ( or ' הגיין ' ) , who is authenticated by his Google profile .
 A fourth option : Perhaps RSRH enjoyed sights like the Alps , and used his vort to justify going out of his way to see them , and perhaps Rabbi Yehudah Zev Segal was n’t in the mood to take a detour that day , and used his vort to justify not going to see the Empire State Building .
 They do n’t contradict each other because each is really a justification for a personal preference that may have been thought up on the spur of the moment rather than a well thought out articulation of a Torah principle .
 One of the major characters in the musical " Hair " is a guy from Flushing , Queens , who decides that it would be more interesting to be from Manchester , England !
 Six years ago I took my wife to the top of the Empire State Building and offered her an engagement ring . She accepted and we are still married :) .
 Open a Hirsch Siddur and see Rav Hirsch 's commentary to that Mishna .
 I was going to bring up that Mishna , but Garnel beat me to it !
 Rabbi Slifkin - Great post ! A little different than your usual writing and I enjoyed it very much .
 Garnel – That mishnah in Pirkei Avos always bothered me , especially because I love nature and nature has a wonderful emotional effect on me . Stopping to appreciate nature enhances my life , and even enhances my learning ( like when I was up in the beautiful mountains in the summertime ) .
 I take exception to your disparaging remarks about Manchester . I was born in Manchester and have lived all my life here , yet I have been very fortunate to have seen many of Hashem 's great wonders of the world . Nevertheless , when I return from these travels , I always say " It 's nice to be home " - in Manchester .
 Rav Mordechai Breuer , when teaching the pasuk " Vat'chash'vehu m`at me'Elokim , " told the story of Rav Hirsch , and continued that in the spirit of the mizmor , one could continue with the question , " did you see my New York ? "
 We get alot more snow nowadays R'Natan , makes Manchester a little brighter !
 Why complicate things ? Two people had two different personalities and interests . My son once asked me if I allow him to be interested in beetles ( he was six at the time , and I think a combination of seeking a large bug along with a nascent yet emerging sense of independence motivated the question ) . I told him it 's not for me to decide what fascinates him , that 's his department . And that 's been our understanding since , even to my slight chagrin . He has no interest in Chazzanut or classical music , both of which I am passionate about , and would love share with him . C'est la vie . He 's a great kid in almost every other way . The point is that many chareidim see the need to ape EVERY aspect of those great and venerable sages referred to as " Gedolim " If the Gadol eats breakfast at 7:42 a.m. , so shall we . If the Gadol ties his necktie in a half windsor knot , so shall we and on and on and on . It 's a silly practice . G - d made individuals to be individuals . It means nothing that R. Segal had no interest in seeing a tall building and couched it in Hashkafic terms . Likewise , it means nothing that R. S.R. Hirsch wanted to see the Alps and couched it in similar terms . The only significance of both stories is the message that is common between them : that everything one chooses to do , should be done in service of the Divine , or at least made to appear as such ( mitoch shelo lishamh bah lishmah ) . People are allowed , nay are expected to stylize their lives , and should do so to His glory .
 I have a third plausible theory . That the story of Rav Hirsch is pretty well known story and Rav Segal was just being ironically witty . Welcome back .
 arn , absorb , follow and do , like nice little programmed androids .
 To me it means we will listen and we understand . I remember a discussion in a charedi baal tshuva circle with two talmidei chachomim present , what to do if your rebbe tells you to jump out the window . Guess what ? The initial reaction was of course you jump like nice little programmed androids ! Then they had a sofek that lechoira the rebbe is telling you to do a dvar aveira , so how can we do it ? Some concluded that they have to do it af al pi ken because of emunas chachomim , others needed to be ' meayen ' . I concluded that I was in the wrong company and threw the rebbe out the window . Lol .
 Poshuter , you change your name every time I out you .
 The Wizard , you very perceptively described the fundamental difference between Chareidi hashkafah and non - Chareidi hashkafah .
 Even assuming you are correct that only Chareidi hashkafah is lechatchila AND there is no bedeiavad , what does this do for most Jewish people who for various reasons can not do what the Chareidi hashkafah requires ? Is this a form of Protestant predestination , where only an elect have a change to be saved , all others predestined to perish ?
 IIRC he actually sat on it - I have always wondered about that one ( and the companion piece on the ir hanidachat ) - should n't his testimony have ended the debate ( just as one exception to a proposed theorom is enough to kill it ) ?
 G * # makes a good point , that it was probably just an off the cuff remark , not reflective of any grand philosophy . In shas we find many statements that were said " dechayeh madche " , ie , just to get an annoying guy off one 's back . This happens to many people on a daily basis .
 Agav , Charlie Hall 's comment , that the Cross Bronx XPway caused so - called environmental damage , is a picture perfect example of liberal " thinking " , and demonstrates quite nicely why America is in decline .
 Wizard , learn Horiyos and you will see that it is on fact forbidden to follow a teaching that know to be incorrect , even if the whole Sanhedrin tells you to do so . Your intellect ( if any ) is odif .
 Also , Manchester is the epitome is grimness .
 " Naaseh v'nishma means we listen , learn , absorb , follow and do , like nice little programmed androids . "
 Who does the programming ? This seems to be a very cogent argument for blaming G - d for one 's heresy and misdeeds .
 should n't his testimony have ended the debate ( just as one exception to a proposed theorom is enough to kill it ) ?
 No , he did n't mean literally . What he meant was that it 's not drush ve kabel sachar but rather a halacha like other halachos .
 G * # makes a good point , that it was probably just an off the cuff remark , not reflective of any grand philosophy .
 Bad point - ' sichas chulin of talmidei chachomim tzricha talmud ' . If those comments were not said in earnest they would be kalus rosh and leizonus . True talmidei chachomim do n't speak lightly of Olam Habo or Yom Hadin .
 Charlie Hall , please tell us what environmental and socioeconomic damage was caused .
 > IIRC he actually sat on it - I have always wondered about that one ( and the companion piece on the ir hanidachat ) - should n't his testimony have ended the debate ( just as one exception to a proposed theorom is enough to kill it ) ?
 Apart from the fact that the Torah says two or three witnesses establish a thing , not one , he was not testifying that he saw a ben sorer u - moreh case , only the grave ( likewise ' ir ha - nidachas ) . Presumably there was a grave which people said was a ben sorer 's grave . But how can he have know if it really was ? We all know that there are many false graves . Most importantly , it could not have been an authentic grave if historically there never was a ben sorer . Maybe we can never know for sure eiether way , but surely this testimony alone should not have ended the debate .
 I do n't know why people are bothering to respond to this " Wizard " guy , it 's pointless . It 's also obvious that it 's " Poshiter Yid " with a new moniker .
 " Bad point - ' sichas chulin of talmidei chachomim tzricha talmud ' . If those comments were not said in earnest they would be kalus rosh and leizonus . True talmidei chachomim do n't speak lightly of Olam Habo or Yom Hadin . "
 " ברוך ... שחלק / שנתן מחכמתו ליראיו " ?
 Or how Rambam mentions עונש in ספר המצוות on " את - ה ' אלוקיך תירא " ? Seems related to me but I 'm not sure yet .
 I wonder also if carefully observing whether people " do n't speak lightly of Olam Habo or Yom Hadin " is how to identify תלמידי חכמים ?
 " Likewise , it means nothing that R. S.R. Hirsch wanted to see the Alps and couched it in similar terms . "
 That 's why I have always felt bad for yeshivish people who work . Nebech , they feel terrible that the whole day they must do something so mundane as working . When they get home and can learn , they 're in heaven . An ideal MO person , however , is happy working since he sees his work as part of his avodas Hashem .
 I ca n't imagine what it must be like to spend eight hours every day of one 's life thinking one is essentially wasting one 's time or serving some secondary , non - ideal function in G - d 's world .
 They were making a new psak on ben sorer , such that it became nearly impossible for it to occur . The question is asked : If it will never happen , why is it in the Torah ( ie . how can you completely annul something in the Torah ) ? The response : To learn it and be mekabel schar ( iow it can still serve an intellectual purpose ) .
 The testimony regarding the grave of a ben sorer would then be talking about a ben sorer who had been killed according to the previous definition of the halacha . It is probable that it was definitely a ben sorer as otherwise he would n't have disrespected the grave by sitting on it .
 Well , it seems that she is confused herself as to which one it is . I think that it was pronounced as Shamshon , I heard this pronunciation many times , but written Shimshon . It 's a distortion similar to Yankev for Yakov . Just thought I 'd let you know .
 Oh , I 've heard this remark often . It 's bizarre , because it automatically assumes that a yid mit a burd has special status or spiritual level . It makes me uncomfortable . But what does this mean when compared to nature ? Seems like apples and oranges to me .
 Yes , true talmidei chachomim as it says if there is no reverence ( for the Almighty ) there is no wisdom . But someone other than talmid chochom can also poses it .
 This is a very good thought but I hope you agree that it 's not the intend of the Mishna ?
 I think Rabbi Yaakov comes to proclaim the supremacy of Torah . He is talking about hamafsik mimishnoso davka . He is not denying the outside world . This is the pshat imo .
 " ... ( a ) peculiar comment in the Talmud Yerushalmi ( end of Kiddushin ): “ A person will in the future [ have to ] make an accounting for everything that his eye beheld but he did not eat . ” "
 Wizard : How did you decide whom you were going to mindlessly follow ? How did you decide what subjects are beyond your comprehension ?
 There are plenty of other problems with your comment , mainly that it does not represent Judaism as practiced and understood by virtually all of the Rishonim , but let 's start with that question .
 see Sanhedrin 71a - ani ritiv vyashavti al kivro - I saw HIM and sat on his grave .
 sorer , such that it became nearly impossible for it to occur .
 I will have to put on my academic sheitl for this one . Sanhedrin moved out of lishkas hagozis 40 years before the Churban . Rabbi Yonasan was a talmid of Rabbi Akiva so he could not have seen HIM and set on his grave because there was no dinei nefoshos at that time . They were not makink a new psak because it was already impossible for it to occur . This was also the reason why the Jews could not execute Jesus .
 should n't his testimony have ended the debate ( just as one exception to a proposed theorem is enough to kill it ) ?
 Correct conclusions . One has to feel the pulse of the Gemorah what is commonly known as the Svorah . The creative , artistic types have an easier time at it than the scientific types . To me this is the beauty of the Gemorah - the Svorah . Just my opinion fwiw .
 RS , the last few posts were excellent !
 However , being from the same area of Manchester myself ( R ' Natan and I were childhood friends ) I must say that I also felt that way about the aforementioned " sunny " city until I brought a girl I was engaged to at the time to visit my parents . She looked around ( actually we were just passing the Hazeldean Hotel ) and said , Manchester is such a pretty place ! And you know what , I looked around with new eyes and said , I 've never noticed it before , but you 're right ! Especially Broughton Park ( which is where we and Rav Segal grew up ) . There are some very quaint and pretty houses , nestling amongst abundant greenery . Arresting avenues of old Oaks leading to stately 19th century English buildings . And that 's not to mention the English hills which surround Manchester ( in which we spent a good amount of our childhood , collecting various creatures and getting rained upon copiously ) .
 I do n't think I grew up as one of those " cynical people who have little interest in the wider world " to whom you refer . It 's true that most peoples smiles have been eroded by years of constant drizzle , however I would not ascribe Rav Segals approach to the rain . The chareidi worldview runs deeper and longer than that in my opinion .
 Mordechai , the link does n't work .
 One bein hazemanim ( Yeshivah was in session in the Catskills ) some fellows took off some days to do some sightseeing , canoeing , rappelling , whatever . They came back to the Yeshivah , and were hanging around , telling of their exploits .
 The Rosh Yeshivah walked in .
 They sheepishly explained where they had been , adding that Rav SRH had said that he wants to have an answer to HaShem 's question " Have you seen My Alps ? "
 The Rosh Yeshivah responded " I do n't know if He will ask you if you saw His Alps or not ; but one thing I do know for sure -- He certainly will ask you if you saw His Masseches Eiruvin !
 I will have to put on my academic sheitl for this one .
 but even an academic ( not that i accept academic study c"v :-)) would have to explain why such specific language was used .
 Max : It was n't or is n't a conscious decision . It 's a mesorah , just like Torah . Father to son , father to son . Makes it easier that way , too . Tatty says so and so is a gadol , ergo he 's a gadol . I heard an audio yesterday of HaRav Gifter , zt"l . He said on the tape that HaRav Shach , zt"l was the Gadol HaDor . That 's enough to convince me and the rest of Ortho Jews that he was .
 As far as what 's beyond comprehension , that 's obvious to the indivual , and to the Gedolim as well . When the Gemara says not to learn Kabbala until age 40 , that means age 40 , not when you decide it 's time . And since age 40 at that time a person knew all of shas baal peh , today it should probably be age 80 or not at all . Even your precious Rambam says not to learn about the Mekava except with 1 Talmid Chacham . Yet everyone thinks they can just go ahead and do what they please , because they have reached such glorious heights in the secular world . A PhD in astrophysics in no way qualifies you to learn Kabbala .
 This is where feeling the pulse of the Gemorah comes in . Rabbi Yonathan objected to the concept of ' drosh vekabel sachar ' , and to drive across the point expressed himself in an exaggerated manner common to his period . Trying to explain ' specific language ' brings you to being megale ponim shelo kihalocha .
 Since you were trying to apply mathematical logic to Talmudic text I am surprised by the c'v . Academic approach is useful for obtaining proper historical , cultural and linguistic understanding of a Talmudic text . If Chovos HaLevovos can use the words of ' amgushi ' ( a priest of idolatry in the context ) to teach us emunah why can not we learn from the academia ? Kabel emes miomra , imo . This is the approach of the rationalist school of thought .
 " When the Gemara says not to learn Kabbala until age 40 , that means age 40 , not when you decide it 's time . "
 Where did you conjure up this quote ? Where is Shas does it say this ? Or did you hokus pokus it ?
 Father to son , father to son . Makes it easier that way , too . Tatty says so and so is a gadol , ergo he 's a gadol .
 Lech lecha ... Mibeis avicho . There is a nice machshova in Likutei Halochos of R. Nosson talmid of R. Nachman . He says that since Torah is eternal this commandment applies to each and every one of us . Every person is brought up with incorrect beliefs due to his environment and parental upbringing . The Torah commands us to abandon our preconceived notions and follow the path of G - d similar to Avraham Avinu .
 I do nt know the exact daf . Exact sources are not as important to me as they are to you . We Haredim do not need chapter & verse . Someone said that someone said that the Gemara said is plenty good enough .
 Mibais avicha only works if you say my father or anyone 's father worshipped idols like Avraham 's did . But if my father and your father was a ben Torah , then you are not allowed to deviate from his teachings , as it violates kibud av .
 I 'm sure the heilige R. Slifkin can tell you where it says about 40 years old . Even translating any kabbala sefer into English is a shande , if not a crime altogether . Just beczuse you can walk into the library and read any secular book , does not mean you can do the same with any Torah sefer . There are restrictions . Only a fool would think that if he reads the Artscroll version of Yechezkel that he can understand the Maaseh HaMerkava . Same with reading an English Zohar . Pretentious , chutzpahdik , and criminal .
 " We Haredim do not need chapter & verse . Someone said that someone said that the Gemara said is plenty good enough . "
 You 'll have to be a bit less over the top if you want to be convincing .
 Same with reading an English Zohar . Pretentious , chutzpahdik , and criminal .
 Criminal ? No . Criminal is when someone does a crime . Rubashkin , for example , committed a crime when he lied on his collateral declarations to the bank for 10 years straight as was proved in court . Rubashkin also committed a crime when he perjured himself on the stand in court . The yeshivish world seems to get mixed up quite a lot about what is and what is not a crime .
 Someone said that someone said that the Gemara said is plenty good enough .
 talmid has this to say .
 As someone from Manchester and knowing the ROSH very well and Mrs Kupets your elementary teacher , I can only say I do nt believe the story . If you read of the Chida travels in London he went to visit the tower . The ROSH was brought up in Manchester and went to a non - frum co - ed Jewish school . He was not the over frum person he is made out to be with no secular knowledge at all . He often went to the alps as well . I think one does a disservice to his great memory writing questionable stories about him .
 Then there is the third Alps story .
 Rav Kook was stuck in Europe when WW I broke out . His first safe haven was in Switzerland . The Nazir , attempting to cheer him up , took him for a trip in the mountains . When asked if the beauty of the mountains did n't move him , Rav Kook sadly responded " the mountains of Eretz Yisrael speak to me more ... "
 I have a third plausible theory . That the story of Rav Hirsch is pretty well known story and Rav Segal was just being ironically witty .
 Agreed . But this could actually be a minor variation of the 2nd explanation : Rav Segal was negating Rav Hirsch 's opinion by quoting him in a mildly sarcastic way .
 this system will also be duplicated to post Halloween masks or even fancy dress masks . When Mask my partner and i say mask That means so numerous things , considering that the You will find other kind connected with masks for some other occasions .