text:
An attractive tile hung detached 3 bedroom house situated in a small side road in the village of Punnetts Town. The accommodation features a large re-modelled kitchen/breakfast room sitting room with wood burning stove, separate dining room, study and hobby room. The master bedroom has a large en-suite bath & separate shower and walk in storage room. There is a good sized single garage and own driveway and a private garden to the rear.
ENCLOSED PORCH: Double glazed windows. Quarry Tiled Floor.
ENTRANCE HALL: Part glazed door & side window. Picture Rail. Radiator.
SITTING ROOM: Double glazed window. Feature fire place with wood burning stove and wooden fire surround. Picture Rail. Built in display cupboard.
RE-MODELLED KITCHEN/BREAKFAST ROOM: Double glazed window and door to garden. Range of grey fronted matching wall & base cupboards. Wood worktops with inset induction hob and filter hood above. Breakfast bar. Built in double oven. Space for washing machine, fridge/freezer & dishwasher. Coved ceiling. Radiator.
DINING ROOM: Double glazed window overlooking the garden. Picture rail. Wooden floor. Radiator.
STUDY: Double glazed window overlooking the garden. Floor mounted boiler.
CLOAKROOM: WC. Corner wash basin. Radiator.
INTEGRAL GARAGE: Up & over door. Built in personal door. Light & power. Mezzanine storage area.
STAIRS TO LANDING: Double glazed window. Access to loft.
BEDROOM 1: Double glazed windows overlooking the garden. Picture rail. Two built in cupboards. Radiator.
WALK IN STORAGE ROOM: Double glazed 'Velux' window. Eaves storage cupboard. Radiator.
BEDROOM 2: Double glazed window. Picture rail. Radiator.
BEDROOM 3: Double glazed window. Picture rail. Radiator.
SHOWER ROOM: Double glazed window. WC. Pedestal wash basin. Shower cubicle with electric shower. Part tiled walls. Radiator.
OUTSIDE: The property is approached via a gated entrance leading to a brick set driveway and the garage. There is a secluded garden to the rear which is mainly laid to lawn with flower & shrub borders. Timber shed. Paved patio. Greenhouse. Oil tank.

lowercased:
an attractive tile hung detached 3 bedroom house situated in a small side road in the village of punnetts town. the accommodation features a large re-modelled kitchen/breakfast room sitting room with wood burning stove, separate dining room, study and hobby room. the master bedroom has a large en-suite bath & separate shower and walk in storage room. there is a good sized single garage and own driveway and a private garden to the rear.
enclosed porch: double glazed windows. quarry tiled floor.
entrance hall: part glazed door & side window. picture rail. radiator.
sitting room: double glazed window. feature fire place with wood burning stove and wooden fire surround. picture rail. built in display cupboard.
re-modelled kitchen/breakfast room: double glazed window and door to garden. range of grey fronted matching wall & base cupboards. wood worktops with inset induction hob and filter hood above. breakfast bar. built in double oven. space for washing machine, fridge/freezer & dishwasher. coved ceiling. radiator.
dining room: double glazed window overlooking the garden. picture rail. wooden floor. radiator.
study: double glazed window overlooking the garden. floor mounted boiler.
cloakroom: wc. corner wash basin. radiator.
integral garage: up & over door. built in personal door. light & power. mezzanine storage area.
stairs to landing: double glazed window. access to loft.
bedroom 1: double glazed windows overlooking the garden. picture rail. two built in cupboards. radiator.
walk in storage room: double glazed 'velux' window. eaves storage cupboard. radiator.
bedroom 2: double glazed window. picture rail. radiator.
bedroom 3: double glazed window. picture rail. radiator.
shower room: double glazed window. wc. pedestal wash basin. shower cubicle with electric shower. part tiled walls. radiator.
outside: the property is approached via a gated entrance leading to a brick set driveway and the garage. there is a secluded garden to the rear which is mainly laid to lawn with flower & shrub borders. timber shed. paved patio. greenhouse. oil tank.


text:
One for me please. Confirmation number OXN24540J5799370X.
2 for me please Mu. Payment Sent (Unique Transaction ID #1BU26517H5194281Y).
can we have 2 please?
I found Angie if you go to the www.paypal.com webpage and sign in it will look like it. I can never find it on the donate button.
I would like 2 please, will come back with confirmation number.
If you go to pay by Paypal via the donate button there doesn't seem to be a way to send money as a gift, I have had to go into paypal as a seperate Google search and then sign in and then the Personal and Gift page is there but definately wasn't there if I want to go via the Donate button on the front page.
Sue ...can you drop mine off to please... .............you know how your maps work..
Im only a few inches up North..
...p.s...soz havent ordered yet waiting for my pension to go in.on 15th.
All calanders that were ordered and paid for have been sent out today (2nd class) so hopefully everyone should get them by Friday at the latest.
If you have ordered and paid for a calander and do not recieve it by next Monday (14th Nov) Please pm Mulan with the date that you paid and she will look into it.
Thank you all for your continued support, And please feel free to post on this thread telling other members about your new Calanders.
Have received mine today and it's every bit as good as I hoped it would be. Would definitely recommend to others.
recieved mine today,one is staying here and one to my mum and the third is going to my friend in america. thankyou very much for the time and effort put in to producing them.
Received the calendar today, many thanks.
Received mine yesterday. Will pm admin about my correct postcode just in case you need to send me anything in the future.
i have orderd 4 calanders couldnt resit them .order number 20c945414B319793W ALL THE BEST SYBIL .
sybil owen wrote: i have orderd 4 calanders couldnt resit them .order number 20c945414B319793W ALL THE BEST SYBIL .
Hi Sybil hope you and Roxy are well. Boon on treatment for his tummmy again at the moment.
my daughter orderd the calanders as she has a paypal account,i didnt know if they would go to her address or mine .
Send a private message to Mulan in admin about it Sybil. They might not have been posted yet. Then at least you will know where they are going to.
He is a little beastie nessie always getting hold of nawty things to eat.
I put Boon's photo on for Roxy as they are brother and sister.

lowercased:
one for me please. confirmation number oxn24540j5799370x.
2 for me please mu. payment sent (unique transaction id #1bu26517h5194281y).
can we have 2 please?
i found angie if you go to the www.paypal.com webpage and sign in it will look like it. i can never find it on the donate button.
i would like 2 please, will come back with confirmation number.
if you go to pay by paypal via the donate button there doesn't seem to be a way to send money as a gift, i have had to go into paypal as a seperate google search and then sign in and then the personal and gift page is there but definately wasn't there if i want to go via the donate button on the front page.
sue ...can you drop mine off to please... .............you know how your maps work..
im only a few inches up north..
...p.s...soz havent ordered yet waiting for my pension to go in.on 15th.
all calanders that were ordered and paid for have been sent out today (2nd class) so hopefully everyone should get them by friday at the latest.
if you have ordered and paid for a calander and do not recieve it by next monday (14th nov) please pm mulan with the date that you paid and she will look into it.
thank you all for your continued support, and please feel free to post on this thread telling other members about your new calanders.
have received mine today and it's every bit as good as i hoped it would be. would definitely recommend to others.
recieved mine today,one is staying here and one to my mum and the third is going to my friend in america. thankyou very much for the time and effort put in to producing them.
received the calendar today, many thanks.
received mine yesterday. will pm admin about my correct postcode just in case you need to send me anything in the future.
i have orderd 4 calanders couldnt resit them .order number 20c945414b319793w all the best sybil .
sybil owen wrote: i have orderd 4 calanders couldnt resit them .order number 20c945414b319793w all the best sybil .
hi sybil hope you and roxy are well. boon on treatment for his tummmy again at the moment.
my daughter orderd the calanders as she has a paypal account,i didnt know if they would go to her address or mine .
send a private message to mulan in admin about it sybil. they might not have been posted yet. then at least you will know where they are going to.
he is a little beastie nessie always getting hold of nawty things to eat.
i put boon's photo on for roxy as they are brother and sister.


text:
Eight items of literary works published on the Internet will join another 170 novels to compete for the Mao Dun Literature Prize, one of China’s most prestigious literary awards, according to the Chinese Writers Association (CWA).
This is the first time that Internet novels have been accepted as qualified candidates for the prize, which is awarded to no more than five novels every four years.
The winners will be selected after two rounds of voting from a committee of 62 judges.
Recent years have shown a growing trend of Internet-based publication of literary works in China, whose number of Internet users climbed to 477 million this year.
In an earlier talk with media, Chen Qirong, a spokesman with the CWA, said that by opening the doors for Internet novels, China’s awards have begun to recognize the influence of Internet literature.
This news excerpt is a bit misleading.
Yes, novels originally published on the Internet are, in a break with tradition, eligible for nomination. However -- as I understand it -- they must later have been printed as a book and sold at bookstores.
If you think this is incorrect, please comment below.
Bruce , June 23, 2011, 12:41a.m.
If that is indeeed the case (and I have no idea whether or not it is...will try to ask around and find out, though) what makes Internet novels different from conventional novels? Sort of makes the distinction moot.
Cindy Carter, June 27, 2011, 10:53a.m.
@Cindy What makes Internet novels different from conventional novels?
The author can get feedback from the readership before writing the next chapter and change the story accordingly, or even include the feedback verbatim in later writing. Chengdu, Leave Me Alone Tonight is an example of the former, and Liu Liu's 《心术》actually cites netizens' online comments in the body of the text.
If you publish at one of the ubiquitous free platforms for creative writing, such as those run by Shanda Literature, you don't have to persuade a publisher that you have written a marketable book, and your copy won't be edited/censored by someone twice your age who probably doesn't even use the Internet anyway.
Obviously the Mao Dun prize folks are still very nervous about allowing writing first published online to compete direct with a novel first published in hard copy. But I think I have answered your question above clearly. Writing for publication online is obviously a less inhibiting and more interactive experience!
Bruce Humes, June 27, 2011, 7:28p.m.
Good points. So if the criteria for an Internet novel to be considered for the Mao Dun prize is simply that it must later have been printed as a book and sold at bookstores, the process of writing, editing, developing, disseminating and creating a following for an online novel remains unaltered. You can have all the advantages of writing and developing your novel on the Internet, and still submit it to what is essentially a traditional text-based, publication-focused literary prize. Case in point (albeit a case which will be never considered for the Mao Dun Prize, for obvious political reasons) is Ai Weiwei's blog book 此时此地: all of the posts originated from his blog, and were later compiled and edited and published in pulp form.
Cindy Carter, July 19, 2011, 12:33p.m.
Cindy Carter, July 19, 2011, 12:51p.m.

lowercased:
eight items of literary works published on the internet will join another 170 novels to compete for the mao dun literature prize, one of china’s most prestigious literary awards, according to the chinese writers association (cwa).
this is the first time that internet novels have been accepted as qualified candidates for the prize, which is awarded to no more than five novels every four years.
the winners will be selected after two rounds of voting from a committee of 62 judges.
recent years have shown a growing trend of internet-based publication of literary works in china, whose number of internet users climbed to 477 million this year.
in an earlier talk with media, chen qirong, a spokesman with the cwa, said that by opening the doors for internet novels, china’s awards have begun to recognize the influence of internet literature.
this news excerpt is a bit misleading.
yes, novels originally published on the internet are, in a break with tradition, eligible for nomination. however -- as i understand it -- they must later have been printed as a book and sold at bookstores.
if you think this is incorrect, please comment below.
bruce , june 23, 2011, 12:41a.m.
if that is indeeed the case (and i have no idea whether or not it is...will try to ask around and find out, though) what makes internet novels different from conventional novels? sort of makes the distinction moot.
cindy carter, june 27, 2011, 10:53a.m.
@cindy what makes internet novels different from conventional novels?
the author can get feedback from the readership before writing the next chapter and change the story accordingly, or even include the feedback verbatim in later writing. chengdu, leave me alone tonight is an example of the former, and liu liu's 《心术》actually cites netizens' online comments in the body of the text.
if you publish at one of the ubiquitous free platforms for creative writing, such as those run by shanda literature, you don't have to persuade a publisher that you have written a marketable book, and your copy won't be edited/censored by someone twice your age who probably doesn't even use the internet anyway.
obviously the mao dun prize folks are still very nervous about allowing writing first published online to compete direct with a novel first published in hard copy. but i think i have answered your question above clearly. writing for publication online is obviously a less inhibiting and more interactive experience!
bruce humes, june 27, 2011, 7:28p.m.
good points. so if the criteria for an internet novel to be considered for the mao dun prize is simply that it must later have been printed as a book and sold at bookstores, the process of writing, editing, developing, disseminating and creating a following for an online novel remains unaltered. you can have all the advantages of writing and developing your novel on the internet, and still submit it to what is essentially a traditional text-based, publication-focused literary prize. case in point (albeit a case which will be never considered for the mao dun prize, for obvious political reasons) is ai weiwei's blog book 此时此地: all of the posts originated from his blog, and were later compiled and edited and published in pulp form.
cindy carter, july 19, 2011, 12:33p.m.
cindy carter, july 19, 2011, 12:51p.m.


text:
Custom Self-Inking Signature and Security Stamps Made Daily Online!
Use a custom signature stamp to sign letters, reports, or add a personal touch to office memos.
Trying to protect yourself from identity theives? Order a Security Stamp and keep your personal information private without the cost and inconvenience of a shredder. No more tiny paper confetti escaping from its basket.

lowercased:
custom self-inking signature and security stamps made daily online!
use a custom signature stamp to sign letters, reports, or add a personal touch to office memos.
trying to protect yourself from identity theives? order a security stamp and keep your personal information private without the cost and inconvenience of a shredder. no more tiny paper confetti escaping from its basket.


text:
Comfort and adventure in a single cup! Freshly ground Yorkshire chillis, star anise, cinnamon and nutmeg are combined with the highest quality dark chocolate to create this amazing blend, inspired by the original Aztec brew. Mix up at home for a rich, warming drink. Five servings are included in a beautiful gold tin.
Also available as a large and small bar.
Dark chocolate (cocoa mass, sugar, cocoa butter, emulsifier: soya lecithin, natural vanilla flavouring), ground cinnamon, ground star anise, chilli flakes, ground nutmeg.

lowercased:
comfort and adventure in a single cup! freshly ground yorkshire chillis, star anise, cinnamon and nutmeg are combined with the highest quality dark chocolate to create this amazing blend, inspired by the original aztec brew. mix up at home for a rich, warming drink. five servings are included in a beautiful gold tin.
also available as a large and small bar.
dark chocolate (cocoa mass, sugar, cocoa butter, emulsifier: soya lecithin, natural vanilla flavouring), ground cinnamon, ground star anise, chilli flakes, ground nutmeg.


text:
Rationalist Judaism: "Nu, So What Did You Think Of My Alps?"
As I mentioned, I'm currently in the Italian Alps for a few days, giving some lectures, and today, I went horseback riding. It is bitterly cold, and I have a bitter cold, but I did not want to miss the opportunity. Now, riding a horse is not one of my skills (I’ve spent more time riding elephants), and the horse that I was given was a huge and feisty stallion who seemed as though he was auditioning for Tolkien’s Riders of Rohan; I was the only person in my group who was given a switch in order to impose discipline if necessary. However, he didn’t throw me off and he was obedient, at least for most of time. We made our way through the tiny, narrow streets of a rustic village, then up the hills through snow-encrusted countryside, with the gigantic white Alps looming around us. It was incredible.
The experience reminded me of something that I wrote about fifteen years ago, back when I was Nosson Slifkin. At the time, I was grappling with two stories which appeared contradictory. The first concerned the late Manchester Rosh Yeshivah, Rabbi Yehudah Zev Segal (whose daughter was my elementary school teacher, so I guess that makes me an indirect talmid of his!). The story is told that Rav Segal was once traveling in Manhattan, and his companions suggested that they take a detour in order to see the famous Empire State Building.
Fifteen years ago, these stories presented a contradiction that bothered me. In classical yeshivah fashion, I reasoned that the contradiction could be resolved. The Empire State Building is a man-made creation, and thus there is no reason to admire it. The Alps, on the other hand, are God’s own handiwork. Thus, there is no difference between Rav Segal and Rav Hirsch.
Fifteen years later, I’m not dismissing the possibility that this resolution is valid, but I am more open to acknowledging the likelihood that the stories reflect a fundamental difference between these two great Torah scholars. I can think of two ways in which to explain the nature of this difference.
One possibility is that these stories reflect two different approaches within Judaism. Rav Segal was of a particular ultra-Orthodox ideology in which Torah—the pursuit of God’s wisdom and commands—is of paramount interest, to the point where it is virtually of exclusive interest. Neglecting the pursuit of Torah and mitzvos, even for a short time, merely to appreciate a wondrous sight, would be inexcusable. Rav Hirsch, on the other hand, was of the Torah im derech eretz school of thought, in which a Jew’s life is enriched by appreciating the wonders of the world—be they God’s creations, or the creations of man, with his ingenious application of his God-given brain.
Another possibility (perhaps related to the previous one) is that these stories reflect the different origins of Rav Segal and Rav Hirsch. There’s a hilarious satirical news story about a person in New York for whom all therapy had failed to cure his chronic miserable attitude, and he was about to undergo a lobotomy, when at the last moment the surgeon realized that there was nothing clinically wrong with the person; he was, in fact, from Manchester. I spent the first seventeen years of my life there, so I can see why it might have caused Rav Segal to have little interest in sightseeing. A miserable, grey, industrial and very provincial town, Manchester tends to produce cynical people who have little interest in the wider world. Rav Hirsch, on the other hand, was from a very different culture.
So, there are three possible explanations for the differing attitudes of Rav Segal and Rav Hirsch. I’ll have to contemplate the matter further before deciding what my attitude should be with regard to man-made wonders. But meanwhile, I’m glad that I braved the cold and my cold to ride through the mountains. When God asks me what I thought of His alps, I’m going to tell Him that they are terrific.
Horses are pretty awesome, too.
Nu, So What Did You Think Of My Lord of The Rings? My La Boheme? My 5th Symphony in C Minor? My Mona Lisa? My Madame Bovary? My ... Lipa Concert?
I'm sure that both Rav Segal and Rav Hirsch would agree that you make a bracha on seeing Alps and no bracha on seeing the ESB (unless you are an architecture nerd - shehecheyanu).
Is there really a stira?
I think that Rav Hirsch would have been interested to see the Empire State Building.
We say a bracha Chonen Hadaas, which I always think of when I see a wonder of the world like the Empire State Building. Hashem gave the architects and engineers the wisdom to build them, didn't he?
(Even more so the George Washington Bridge, which is breathtaking but unfortuately pedestrian to those of us who see it on a very regular basis. And read Robert Caro's biography of Robert Moses to find out just what miracles of engineering went into building the Cross Bronx Expressway).
And Baruch Shechalak Mechachmaso Lebasar Vedam.
"back when I was Nosson Slifkin"
The Mishnah in Avos says that if you're travelling along and learning, and you see a tree or a ploughed field and stop learning to say "Wow, what a great tree" or "Wow, what a great ploughed field" you've done very badly.
Why a ploughed field as opposed to just a field? Why a ploughed field as opposed to a nice mountain?
The tree is natural, a product of God's handiwork. The ploughed field is a testament to the hard work of man to develop the natural world God gave us. Admiration of both the natural and the man-made must come second to Torah. Perhaps that's why the Manchester Rav had no interest in the ESB.
But maybe Rav Shimshon Rafael Hirsch was riding through the Alps on the same horse as you and couldn't concentrate on his learning so he had time to look?
"And Baruch Shechalak Mechachmaso Lebasar Vedam."
You say that on the ESB??
Not to mention that some (most?) architectonic wonders were build in connection with avodah zarah.
I wish I knew how to ride a horse. My mother tells me that my father was quite adept at riding horses.
My personal take is that seeing a great man-made structure is an extension of seeing G-d-made structures since isn't it G-d who created man, his wisdom, and the potential to create such structures?
R.NS: "And Baruch Shechalak Mechachmaso Lebasar Vedam."
The הכרת הטוב: Manchester has given us many Nobel Laureates, including 2 physicists in 2010, as well as many other precious חכמי אומות העולם.
I know one of Rav Hirsch's great-granddaughters who insists that Rav Hirsch's name is not Shimshon. She says it's Samson or Shamshon, but not Shimshon. Just thought I'd let you know.
You say: "I think that Rav Hirsch would have been interested to see the Empire State Building."
--Hagyan (or 'הגיין'), who is authenticated by his Google profile.
A fourth option: Perhaps RSRH enjoyed sights like the Alps, and used his vort to justify going out of his way to see them, and perhaps Rabbi Yehudah Zev Segal wasn’t in the mood to take a detour that day, and used his vort to justify not going to see the Empire State Building.
They don’t contradict each other because each is really a justification for a personal preference that may have been thought up on the spur of the moment rather than a well thought out articulation of a Torah principle.
One of the major characters in the musical "Hair" is a guy from Flushing, Queens, who decides that it would be more interesting to be from Manchester, England!
Six years ago I took my wife to the top of the Empire State Building and offered her an engagement ring. She accepted and we are still married :).
Open a Hirsch Siddur and see Rav Hirsch's commentary to that Mishna.
I was going to bring up that Mishna, but Garnel beat me to it!
Rabbi Slifkin - Great post! A little different than your usual writing and I enjoyed it very much.
Garnel – That mishnah in Pirkei Avos always bothered me, especially because I love nature and nature has a wonderful emotional effect on me. Stopping to appreciate nature enhances my life, and even enhances my learning (like when I was up in the beautiful mountains in the summertime).
I take exception to your disparaging remarks about Manchester. I was born in Manchester and have lived all my life here, yet I have been very fortunate to have seen many of Hashem's great wonders of the world. Nevertheless, when I return from these travels, I always say "It's nice to be home" - in Manchester.
Rav Mordechai Breuer, when teaching the pasuk "Vat'chash'vehu m`at me'Elokim," told the story of Rav Hirsch, and continued that in the spirit of the mizmor, one could continue with the question, "did you see my New York?"
We get alot more snow nowadays R'Natan, makes Manchester a little brighter!
Why complicate things? Two people had two different personalities and interests. My son once asked me if I allow him to be interested in beetles (he was six at the time, and I think a combination of seeking a large bug along with a nascent yet emerging sense of independence motivated the question). I told him it's not for me to decide what fascinates him, that's his department. And that's been our understanding since, even to my slight chagrin. He has no interest in Chazzanut or classical music, both of which I am passionate about, and would love share with him. C'est la vie. He's a great kid in almost every other way. The point is that many chareidim see the need to ape EVERY aspect of those great and venerable sages referred to as "Gedolim" If the Gadol eats breakfast at 7:42 a.m., so shall we. If the Gadol ties his necktie in a half windsor knot, so shall we and on and on and on. It's a silly practice. G-d made individuals to be individuals. It means nothing that R. Segal had no interest in seeing a tall building and couched it in Hashkafic terms. Likewise, it means nothing that R. S.R. Hirsch wanted to see the Alps and couched it in similar terms. The only significance of both stories is the message that is common between them: that everything one chooses to do, should be done in service of the Divine, or at least made to appear as such (mitoch shelo lishamh bah lishmah). People are allowed, nay are expected to stylize their lives, and should do so to His glory.
I have a third plausible theory. That the story of Rav Hirsch is pretty well known story and Rav Segal was just being ironically witty. Welcome back.
arn, absorb, follow and do, like nice little programmed androids.
To me it means we will listen and we understand. I remember a discussion in a charedi baal tshuva circle with two talmidei chachomim present, what to do if your rebbe tells you to jump out the window. Guess what? The initial reaction was of course you jump like nice little programmed androids! Then they had a sofek that lechoira the rebbe is telling you to do a dvar aveira, so how can we do it? Some concluded that they have to do it af al pi ken because of emunas chachomim, others needed to be 'meayen'. I concluded that I was in the wrong company and threw the rebbe out the window. Lol.
Poshuter, you change your name every time I out you.
The Wizard, you very perceptively described the fundamental difference between Chareidi hashkafah and non-Chareidi hashkafah.
Even assuming you are correct that only Chareidi hashkafah is lechatchila AND there is no bedeiavad, what does this do for most Jewish people who for various reasons cannot do what the Chareidi hashkafah requires? Is this a form of Protestant predestination, where only an elect have a change to be saved, all others predestined to perish?
IIRC he actually sat on it - I have always wondered about that one (and the companion piece on the ir hanidachat) - shouldn't his testimony have ended the debate (just as one exception to a proposed theorom is enough to kill it)?
G*# makes a good point, that it was probably just an off the cuff remark, not reflective of any grand philosophy. In shas we find many statements that were said "dechayeh madche", ie, just to get an annoying guy off one's back. This happens to many people on a daily basis.
Agav, Charlie Hall's comment, that the Cross Bronx XPway caused so-called environmental damage, is a picture perfect example of liberal "thinking", and demonstrates quite nicely why America is in decline.
Wizard, learn Horiyos and you will see that it is on fact forbidden to follow a teaching that know to be incorrect, even if the whole Sanhedrin tells you to do so. Your intellect (if any) is odif.
Also, Manchester is the epitome is grimness.
"Naaseh v'nishma means we listen, learn, absorb, follow and do, like nice little programmed androids."
Who does the programming? This seems to be a very cogent argument for blaming G-d for one's heresy and misdeeds.
shouldn't his testimony have ended the debate (just as one exception to a proposed theorom is enough to kill it)?
No, he didn't mean literally. What he meant was that it's not drush ve kabel sachar but rather a halacha like other halachos.
G*# makes a good point, that it was probably just an off the cuff remark, not reflective of any grand philosophy.
Bad point - 'sichas chulin of talmidei chachomim tzricha talmud'. If those comments were not said in earnest they would be kalus rosh and leizonus. True talmidei chachomim don't speak lightly of Olam Habo or Yom Hadin.
Charlie Hall, please tell us what environmental and socioeconomic damage was caused.
>IIRC he actually sat on it - I have always wondered about that one (and the companion piece on the ir hanidachat) - shouldn't his testimony have ended the debate (just as one exception to a proposed theorom is enough to kill it)?
Apart from the fact that the Torah says two or three witnesses establish a thing, not one, he was not testifying that he saw a ben sorer u-moreh case, only the grave (likewise 'ir ha-nidachas). Presumably there was a grave which people said was a ben sorer's grave. But how can he have know if it really was? We all know that there are many false graves. Most importantly, it could not have been an authentic grave if historically there never was a ben sorer. Maybe we can never know for sure eiether way, but surely this testimony alone should not have ended the debate.
I don't know why people are bothering to respond to this "Wizard" guy, it's pointless. It's also obvious that it's "Poshiter Yid" with a new moniker.
"Bad point - 'sichas chulin of talmidei chachomim tzricha talmud'. If those comments were not said in earnest they would be kalus rosh and leizonus. True talmidei chachomim don't speak lightly of Olam Habo or Yom Hadin."
"ברוך ... שחלק/שנתן מחכמתו ליראיו" ?
Or how Rambam mentions עונש in ספר המצוות on "את-ה' אלוקיך תירא"? Seems related to me but I'm not sure yet.
I wonder also if carefully observing whether people "don't speak lightly of Olam Habo or Yom Hadin" is how to identify תלמידי חכמים?
"Likewise, it means nothing that R. S.R. Hirsch wanted to see the Alps and couched it in similar terms."
That's why I have always felt bad for yeshivish people who work. Nebech, they feel terrible that the whole day they must do something so mundane as working. When they get home and can learn, they're in heaven. An ideal MO person, however, is happy working since he sees his work as part of his avodas Hashem.
I can't imagine what it must be like to spend eight hours every day of one's life thinking one is essentially wasting one's time or serving some secondary, non-ideal function in G-d's world.
They were making a new psak on ben sorer, such that it became nearly impossible for it to occur. The question is asked: If it will never happen, why is it in the Torah (ie. how can you completely annul something in the Torah)? The response: To learn it and be mekabel schar (iow it can still serve an intellectual purpose).
The testimony regarding the grave of a ben sorer would then be talking about a ben sorer who had been killed according to the previous definition of the halacha. It is probable that it was definitely a ben sorer as otherwise he wouldn't have disrespected the grave by sitting on it.
Well, it seems that she is confused herself as to which one it is. I think that it was pronounced as Shamshon, I heard this pronunciation many times, but written Shimshon. It's a distortion similar to Yankev for Yakov. Just thought I'd let you know.
Oh, I've heard this remark often. It's bizarre, because it automatically assumes that a yid mit a burd has special status or spiritual level. It makes me uncomfortable. But what does this mean when compared to nature? Seems like apples and oranges to me.
Yes, true talmidei chachomim as it says if there is no reverence (for the Almighty) there is no wisdom. But someone other than talmid chochom can also poses it.
This is a very good thought but I hope you agree that it's not the intend of the Mishna?
I think Rabbi Yaakov comes to proclaim the supremacy of Torah. He is talking about hamafsik mimishnoso davka. He is not denying the outside world. This is the pshat imo.
"...(a) peculiar comment in the Talmud Yerushalmi (end of Kiddushin): “A person will in the future [have to] make an accounting for everything that his eye beheld but he did not eat.” "
Wizard: How did you decide whom you were going to mindlessly follow? How did you decide what subjects are beyond your comprehension?
There are plenty of other problems with your comment, mainly that it does not represent Judaism as practiced and understood by virtually all of the Rishonim, but let's start with that question.
see Sanhedrin 71a - ani ritiv vyashavti al kivro - I saw HIM and sat on his grave.
sorer, such that it became nearly impossible for it to occur.
I will have to put on my academic sheitl for this one. Sanhedrin moved out of lishkas hagozis 40 years before the Churban. Rabbi Yonasan was a talmid of Rabbi Akiva so he could not have seen HIM and set on his grave because there was no dinei nefoshos at that time. They were not makink a new psak because it was already impossible for it to occur. This was also the reason why the Jews could not execute Jesus.
shouldn't his testimony have ended the debate (just as one exception to a proposed theorem is enough to kill it)?
Correct conclusions. One has to feel the pulse of the Gemorah what is commonly known as the Svorah. The creative, artistic types have an easier time at it than the scientific types. To me this is the beauty of the Gemorah - the Svorah. Just my opinion fwiw.
RS, the last few posts were excellent!
However, being from the same area of Manchester myself (R' Natan and I were childhood friends) I must say that I also felt that way about the aforementioned "sunny" city until I brought a girl I was engaged to at the time to visit my parents. She looked around (actually we were just passing the Hazeldean Hotel) and said, Manchester is such a pretty place! And you know what, I looked around with new eyes and said, I've never noticed it before, but you're right! Especially Broughton Park (which is where we and Rav Segal grew up). There are some very quaint and pretty houses, nestling amongst abundant greenery. Arresting avenues of old Oaks leading to stately 19th century English buildings. And that's not to mention the English hills which surround Manchester (in which we spent a good amount of our childhood, collecting various creatures and getting rained upon copiously).
I don't think I grew up as one of those "cynical people who have little interest in the wider world" to whom you refer. It's true that most peoples smiles have been eroded by years of constant drizzle, however I would not ascribe Rav Segals approach to the rain. The chareidi worldview runs deeper and longer than that in my opinion.
Mordechai, the link doesn't work.
One bein hazemanim (Yeshivah was in session in the Catskills) some fellows took off some days to do some sightseeing, canoeing, rappelling, whatever. They came back to the Yeshivah, and were hanging around, telling of their exploits.
The Rosh Yeshivah walked in.
They sheepishly explained where they had been,adding that Rav SRH had said that he wants to have an answer to HaShem's question "Have you seen My Alps?"
The Rosh Yeshivah responded "I don't know if He will ask you if you saw His Alps or not; but one thing I do know for sure--He certainly will ask you if you saw His Masseches Eiruvin!
I will have to put on my academic sheitl for this one.
but even an academic (not that i accept academic study c"v :-)) would have to explain why such specific language was used.
Max: It wasn't or isn't a conscious decision. It's a mesorah, just like Torah. Father to son, father to son. Makes it easier that way, too. Tatty says so and so is a gadol, ergo he's a gadol. I heard an audio yesterday of HaRav Gifter, zt"l. He said on the tape that HaRav Shach, zt"l was the Gadol HaDor. That's enough to convince me and the rest of Ortho Jews that he was.
As far as what's beyond comprehension, that's obvious to the indivual, and to the Gedolim as well. When the Gemara says not to learn Kabbala until age 40, that means age 40, not when you decide it's time. And since age 40 at that time a person knew all of shas baal peh, today it should probably be age 80 or not at all. Even your precious Rambam says not to learn about the Mekava except with 1 Talmid Chacham. Yet everyone thinks they can just go ahead and do what they please, because they have reached such glorious heights in the secular world. A PhD in astrophysics in no way qualifies you to learn Kabbala.
This is where feeling the pulse of the Gemorah comes in. Rabbi Yonathan objected to the concept of 'drosh vekabel sachar', and to drive across the point expressed himself in an exaggerated manner common to his period. Trying to explain 'specific language' brings you to being megale ponim shelo kihalocha.
Since you were trying to apply mathematical logic to Talmudic text I am surprised by the c'v. Academic approach is useful for obtaining proper historical, cultural and linguistic understanding of a Talmudic text. If Chovos HaLevovos can use the words of 'amgushi' (a priest of idolatry in the context) to teach us emunah why cannot we learn from the academia? Kabel emes miomra, imo. This is the approach of the rationalist school of thought.
"When the Gemara says not to learn Kabbala until age 40, that means age 40, not when you decide it's time."
Where did you conjure up this quote? Where is Shas does it say this? Or did you hokus pokus it?
Father to son, father to son. Makes it easier that way, too. Tatty says so and so is a gadol, ergo he's a gadol.
Lech lecha ... Mibeis avicho. There is a nice machshova in Likutei Halochos of R. Nosson talmid of R. Nachman. He says that since Torah is eternal this commandment applies to each and every one of us. Every person is brought up with incorrect beliefs due to his environment and parental upbringing. The Torah commands us to abandon our preconceived notions and follow the path of G-d similar to Avraham Avinu.
I dont know the exact daf. Exact sources are not as important to me as they are to you. We Haredim do not need chapter & verse. Someone said that someone said that the Gemara said is plenty good enough.
Mibais avicha only works if you say my father or anyone's father worshipped idols like Avraham's did. But if my father and your father was a ben Torah, then you are not allowed to deviate from his teachings, as it violates kibud av.
I'm sure the heilige R. Slifkin can tell you where it says about 40 years old. Even translating any kabbala sefer into English is a shande, if not a crime altogether. Just beczuse you can walk into the library and read any secular book, does not mean you can do the same with any Torah sefer. There are restrictions. Only a fool would think that if he reads the Artscroll version of Yechezkel that he can understand the Maaseh HaMerkava. Same with reading an English Zohar. Pretentious, chutzpahdik, and criminal.
"We Haredim do not need chapter & verse. Someone said that someone said that the Gemara said is plenty good enough."
You'll have to be a bit less over the top if you want to be convincing.
Same with reading an English Zohar. Pretentious, chutzpahdik, and criminal.
Criminal? No. Criminal is when someone does a crime. Rubashkin, for example, committed a crime when he lied on his collateral declarations to the bank for 10 years straight as was proved in court. Rubashkin also committed a crime when he perjured himself on the stand in court. The yeshivish world seems to get mixed up quite a lot about what is and what is not a crime.
Someone said that someone said that the Gemara said is plenty good enough.
talmid has this to say.
As someone from Manchester and knowing the ROSH very well and Mrs Kupets your elementary teacher, I can only say I dont believe the story. If you read of the Chida travels in London he went to visit the tower. The ROSH was brought up in Manchester and went to a non-frum co-ed Jewish school. He was not the over frum person he is made out to be with no secular knowledge at all. He often went to the alps as well. I think one does a disservice to his great memory writing questionable stories about him.
Then there is the third Alps story.
Rav Kook was stuck in Europe when WW I broke out. His first safe haven was in Switzerland. The Nazir, attempting to cheer him up, took him for a trip in the mountains. When asked if the beauty of the mountains didn't move him, Rav Kook sadly responded "the mountains of Eretz Yisrael speak to me more..."
I have a third plausible theory. That the story of Rav Hirsch is pretty well known story and Rav Segal was just being ironically witty.
Agreed. But this could actually be a minor variation of the 2nd explanation: Rav Segal was negating Rav Hirsch's opinion by quoting him in a mildly sarcastic way.
this system will also be duplicated to post Halloween masks or even fancy dress masks.When Mask my partner and i say mask That means so numerous things, considering that the You will find other kind connected with masks for some other occasions.

lowercased:
rationalist judaism: "nu, so what did you think of my alps?"
as i mentioned, i'm currently in the italian alps for a few days, giving some lectures, and today, i went horseback riding. it is bitterly cold, and i have a bitter cold, but i did not want to miss the opportunity. now, riding a horse is not one of my skills (i’ve spent more time riding elephants), and the horse that i was given was a huge and feisty stallion who seemed as though he was auditioning for tolkien’s riders of rohan; i was the only person in my group who was given a switch in order to impose discipline if necessary. however, he didn’t throw me off and he was obedient, at least for most of time. we made our way through the tiny, narrow streets of a rustic village, then up the hills through snow-encrusted countryside, with the gigantic white alps looming around us. it was incredible.
the experience reminded me of something that i wrote about fifteen years ago, back when i was nosson slifkin. at the time, i was grappling with two stories which appeared contradictory. the first concerned the late manchester rosh yeshivah, rabbi yehudah zev segal (whose daughter was my elementary school teacher, so i guess that makes me an indirect talmid of his!). the story is told that rav segal was once traveling in manhattan, and his companions suggested that they take a detour in order to see the famous empire state building.
fifteen years ago, these stories presented a contradiction that bothered me. in classical yeshivah fashion, i reasoned that the contradiction could be resolved. the empire state building is a man-made creation, and thus there is no reason to admire it. the alps, on the other hand, are god’s own handiwork. thus, there is no difference between rav segal and rav hirsch.
fifteen years later, i’m not dismissing the possibility that this resolution is valid, but i am more open to acknowledging the likelihood that the stories reflect a fundamental difference between these two great torah scholars. i can think of two ways in which to explain the nature of this difference.
one possibility is that these stories reflect two different approaches within judaism. rav segal was of a particular ultra-orthodox ideology in which torah—the pursuit of god’s wisdom and commands—is of paramount interest, to the point where it is virtually of exclusive interest. neglecting the pursuit of torah and mitzvos, even for a short time, merely to appreciate a wondrous sight, would be inexcusable. rav hirsch, on the other hand, was of the torah im derech eretz school of thought, in which a jew’s life is enriched by appreciating the wonders of the world—be they god’s creations, or the creations of man, with his ingenious application of his god-given brain.
another possibility (perhaps related to the previous one) is that these stories reflect the different origins of rav segal and rav hirsch. there’s a hilarious satirical news story about a person in new york for whom all therapy had failed to cure his chronic miserable attitude, and he was about to undergo a lobotomy, when at the last moment the surgeon realized that there was nothing clinically wrong with the person; he was, in fact, from manchester. i spent the first seventeen years of my life there, so i can see why it might have caused rav segal to have little interest in sightseeing. a miserable, grey, industrial and very provincial town, manchester tends to produce cynical people who have little interest in the wider world. rav hirsch, on the other hand, was from a very different culture.
so, there are three possible explanations for the differing attitudes of rav segal and rav hirsch. i’ll have to contemplate the matter further before deciding what my attitude should be with regard to man-made wonders. but meanwhile, i’m glad that i braved the cold and my cold to ride through the mountains. when god asks me what i thought of his alps, i’m going to tell him that they are terrific.
horses are pretty awesome, too.
nu, so what did you think of my lord of the rings? my la boheme? my 5th symphony in c minor? my mona lisa? my madame bovary? my ... lipa concert?
i'm sure that both rav segal and rav hirsch would agree that you make a bracha on seeing alps and no bracha on seeing the esb (unless you are an architecture nerd - shehecheyanu).
is there really a stira?
i think that rav hirsch would have been interested to see the empire state building.
we say a bracha chonen hadaas, which i always think of when i see a wonder of the world like the empire state building. hashem gave the architects and engineers the wisdom to build them, didn't he?
(even more so the george washington bridge, which is breathtaking but unfortuately pedestrian to those of us who see it on a very regular basis. and read robert caro's biography of robert moses to find out just what miracles of engineering went into building the cross bronx expressway).
and baruch shechalak mechachmaso lebasar vedam.
"back when i was nosson slifkin"
the mishnah in avos says that if you're travelling along and learning, and you see a tree or a ploughed field and stop learning to say "wow, what a great tree" or "wow, what a great ploughed field" you've done very badly.
why a ploughed field as opposed to just a field? why a ploughed field as opposed to a nice mountain?
the tree is natural, a product of god's handiwork. the ploughed field is a testament to the hard work of man to develop the natural world god gave us. admiration of both the natural and the man-made must come second to torah. perhaps that's why the manchester rav had no interest in the esb.
but maybe rav shimshon rafael hirsch was riding through the alps on the same horse as you and couldn't concentrate on his learning so he had time to look?
"and baruch shechalak mechachmaso lebasar vedam."
you say that on the esb??
not to mention that some (most?) architectonic wonders were build in connection with avodah zarah.
i wish i knew how to ride a horse. my mother tells me that my father was quite adept at riding horses.
my personal take is that seeing a great man-made structure is an extension of seeing g-d-made structures since isn't it g-d who created man, his wisdom, and the potential to create such structures?
r.ns: "and baruch shechalak mechachmaso lebasar vedam."
the הכרת הטוב: manchester has given us many nobel laureates, including 2 physicists in 2010, as well as many other precious חכמי אומות העולם.
i know one of rav hirsch's great-granddaughters who insists that rav hirsch's name is not shimshon. she says it's samson or shamshon, but not shimshon. just thought i'd let you know.
you say: "i think that rav hirsch would have been interested to see the empire state building."
--hagyan (or 'הגיין'), who is authenticated by his google profile.
a fourth option: perhaps rsrh enjoyed sights like the alps, and used his vort to justify going out of his way to see them, and perhaps rabbi yehudah zev segal wasn’t in the mood to take a detour that day, and used his vort to justify not going to see the empire state building.
they don’t contradict each other because each is really a justification for a personal preference that may have been thought up on the spur of the moment rather than a well thought out articulation of a torah principle.
one of the major characters in the musical "hair" is a guy from flushing, queens, who decides that it would be more interesting to be from manchester, england!
six years ago i took my wife to the top of the empire state building and offered her an engagement ring. she accepted and we are still married :).
open a hirsch siddur and see rav hirsch's commentary to that mishna.
i was going to bring up that mishna, but garnel beat me to it!
rabbi slifkin - great post! a little different than your usual writing and i enjoyed it very much.
garnel – that mishnah in pirkei avos always bothered me, especially because i love nature and nature has a wonderful emotional effect on me. stopping to appreciate nature enhances my life, and even enhances my learning (like when i was up in the beautiful mountains in the summertime).
i take exception to your disparaging remarks about manchester. i was born in manchester and have lived all my life here, yet i have been very fortunate to have seen many of hashem's great wonders of the world. nevertheless, when i return from these travels, i always say "it's nice to be home" - in manchester.
rav mordechai breuer, when teaching the pasuk "vat'chash'vehu m`at me'elokim," told the story of rav hirsch, and continued that in the spirit of the mizmor, one could continue with the question, "did you see my new york?"
we get alot more snow nowadays r'natan, makes manchester a little brighter!
why complicate things? two people had two different personalities and interests. my son once asked me if i allow him to be interested in beetles (he was six at the time, and i think a combination of seeking a large bug along with a nascent yet emerging sense of independence motivated the question). i told him it's not for me to decide what fascinates him, that's his department. and that's been our understanding since, even to my slight chagrin. he has no interest in chazzanut or classical music, both of which i am passionate about, and would love share with him. c'est la vie. he's a great kid in almost every other way. the point is that many chareidim see the need to ape every aspect of those great and venerable sages referred to as "gedolim" if the gadol eats breakfast at 7:42 a.m., so shall we. if the gadol ties his necktie in a half windsor knot, so shall we and on and on and on. it's a silly practice. g-d made individuals to be individuals. it means nothing that r. segal had no interest in seeing a tall building and couched it in hashkafic terms. likewise, it means nothing that r. s.r. hirsch wanted to see the alps and couched it in similar terms. the only significance of both stories is the message that is common between them: that everything one chooses to do, should be done in service of the divine, or at least made to appear as such (mitoch shelo lishamh bah lishmah). people are allowed, nay are expected to stylize their lives, and should do so to his glory.
i have a third plausible theory. that the story of rav hirsch is pretty well known story and rav segal was just being ironically witty. welcome back.
arn, absorb, follow and do, like nice little programmed androids.
to me it means we will listen and we understand. i remember a discussion in a charedi baal tshuva circle with two talmidei chachomim present, what to do if your rebbe tells you to jump out the window. guess what? the initial reaction was of course you jump like nice little programmed androids! then they had a sofek that lechoira the rebbe is telling you to do a dvar aveira, so how can we do it? some concluded that they have to do it af al pi ken because of emunas chachomim, others needed to be 'meayen'. i concluded that i was in the wrong company and threw the rebbe out the window. lol.
poshuter, you change your name every time i out you.
the wizard, you very perceptively described the fundamental difference between chareidi hashkafah and non-chareidi hashkafah.
even assuming you are correct that only chareidi hashkafah is lechatchila and there is no bedeiavad, what does this do for most jewish people who for various reasons cannot do what the chareidi hashkafah requires? is this a form of protestant predestination, where only an elect have a change to be saved, all others predestined to perish?
iirc he actually sat on it - i have always wondered about that one (and the companion piece on the ir hanidachat) - shouldn't his testimony have ended the debate (just as one exception to a proposed theorom is enough to kill it)?
g*# makes a good point, that it was probably just an off the cuff remark, not reflective of any grand philosophy. in shas we find many statements that were said "dechayeh madche", ie, just to get an annoying guy off one's back. this happens to many people on a daily basis.
agav, charlie hall's comment, that the cross bronx xpway caused so-called environmental damage, is a picture perfect example of liberal "thinking", and demonstrates quite nicely why america is in decline.
wizard, learn horiyos and you will see that it is on fact forbidden to follow a teaching that know to be incorrect, even if the whole sanhedrin tells you to do so. your intellect (if any) is odif.
also, manchester is the epitome is grimness.
"naaseh v'nishma means we listen, learn, absorb, follow and do, like nice little programmed androids."
who does the programming? this seems to be a very cogent argument for blaming g-d for one's heresy and misdeeds.
shouldn't his testimony have ended the debate (just as one exception to a proposed theorom is enough to kill it)?
no, he didn't mean literally. what he meant was that it's not drush ve kabel sachar but rather a halacha like other halachos.
g*# makes a good point, that it was probably just an off the cuff remark, not reflective of any grand philosophy.
bad point - 'sichas chulin of talmidei chachomim tzricha talmud'. if those comments were not said in earnest they would be kalus rosh and leizonus. true talmidei chachomim don't speak lightly of olam habo or yom hadin.
charlie hall, please tell us what environmental and socioeconomic damage was caused.
>iirc he actually sat on it - i have always wondered about that one (and the companion piece on the ir hanidachat) - shouldn't his testimony have ended the debate (just as one exception to a proposed theorom is enough to kill it)?
apart from the fact that the torah says two or three witnesses establish a thing, not one, he was not testifying that he saw a ben sorer u-moreh case, only the grave (likewise 'ir ha-nidachas). presumably there was a grave which people said was a ben sorer's grave. but how can he have know if it really was? we all know that there are many false graves. most importantly, it could not have been an authentic grave if historically there never was a ben sorer. maybe we can never know for sure eiether way, but surely this testimony alone should not have ended the debate.
i don't know why people are bothering to respond to this "wizard" guy, it's pointless. it's also obvious that it's "poshiter yid" with a new moniker.
"bad point - 'sichas chulin of talmidei chachomim tzricha talmud'. if those comments were not said in earnest they would be kalus rosh and leizonus. true talmidei chachomim don't speak lightly of olam habo or yom hadin."
"ברוך ... שחלק/שנתן מחכמתו ליראיו" ?
or how rambam mentions עונש in ספר המצוות on "את-ה' אלוקיך תירא"? seems related to me but i'm not sure yet.
i wonder also if carefully observing whether people "don't speak lightly of olam habo or yom hadin" is how to identify תלמידי חכמים?
"likewise, it means nothing that r. s.r. hirsch wanted to see the alps and couched it in similar terms."
that's why i have always felt bad for yeshivish people who work. nebech, they feel terrible that the whole day they must do something so mundane as working. when they get home and can learn, they're in heaven. an ideal mo person, however, is happy working since he sees his work as part of his avodas hashem.
i can't imagine what it must be like to spend eight hours every day of one's life thinking one is essentially wasting one's time or serving some secondary, non-ideal function in g-d's world.
they were making a new psak on ben sorer, such that it became nearly impossible for it to occur. the question is asked: if it will never happen, why is it in the torah (ie. how can you completely annul something in the torah)? the response: to learn it and be mekabel schar (iow it can still serve an intellectual purpose).
the testimony regarding the grave of a ben sorer would then be talking about a ben sorer who had been killed according to the previous definition of the halacha. it is probable that it was definitely a ben sorer as otherwise he wouldn't have disrespected the grave by sitting on it.
well, it seems that she is confused herself as to which one it is. i think that it was pronounced as shamshon, i heard this pronunciation many times, but written shimshon. it's a distortion similar to yankev for yakov. just thought i'd let you know.
oh, i've heard this remark often. it's bizarre, because it automatically assumes that a yid mit a burd has special status or spiritual level. it makes me uncomfortable. but what does this mean when compared to nature? seems like apples and oranges to me.
yes, true talmidei chachomim as it says if there is no reverence (for the almighty) there is no wisdom. but someone other than talmid chochom can also poses it.
this is a very good thought but i hope you agree that it's not the intend of the mishna?
i think rabbi yaakov comes to proclaim the supremacy of torah. he is talking about hamafsik mimishnoso davka. he is not denying the outside world. this is the pshat imo.
"...(a) peculiar comment in the talmud yerushalmi (end of kiddushin): “a person will in the future [have to] make an accounting for everything that his eye beheld but he did not eat.” "
wizard: how did you decide whom you were going to mindlessly follow? how did you decide what subjects are beyond your comprehension?
there are plenty of other problems with your comment, mainly that it does not represent judaism as practiced and understood by virtually all of the rishonim, but let's start with that question.
see sanhedrin 71a - ani ritiv vyashavti al kivro - i saw him and sat on his grave.
sorer, such that it became nearly impossible for it to occur.
i will have to put on my academic sheitl for this one. sanhedrin moved out of lishkas hagozis 40 years before the churban. rabbi yonasan was a talmid of rabbi akiva so he could not have seen him and set on his grave because there was no dinei nefoshos at that time. they were not makink a new psak because it was already impossible for it to occur. this was also the reason why the jews could not execute jesus.
shouldn't his testimony have ended the debate (just as one exception to a proposed theorem is enough to kill it)?
correct conclusions. one has to feel the pulse of the gemorah what is commonly known as the svorah. the creative, artistic types have an easier time at it than the scientific types. to me this is the beauty of the gemorah - the svorah. just my opinion fwiw.
rs, the last few posts were excellent!
however, being from the same area of manchester myself (r' natan and i were childhood friends) i must say that i also felt that way about the aforementioned "sunny" city until i brought a girl i was engaged to at the time to visit my parents. she looked around (actually we were just passing the hazeldean hotel) and said, manchester is such a pretty place! and you know what, i looked around with new eyes and said, i've never noticed it before, but you're right! especially broughton park (which is where we and rav segal grew up). there are some very quaint and pretty houses, nestling amongst abundant greenery. arresting avenues of old oaks leading to stately 19th century english buildings. and that's not to mention the english hills which surround manchester (in which we spent a good amount of our childhood, collecting various creatures and getting rained upon copiously).
i don't think i grew up as one of those "cynical people who have little interest in the wider world" to whom you refer. it's true that most peoples smiles have been eroded by years of constant drizzle, however i would not ascribe rav segals approach to the rain. the chareidi worldview runs deeper and longer than that in my opinion.
mordechai, the link doesn't work.
one bein hazemanim (yeshivah was in session in the catskills) some fellows took off some days to do some sightseeing, canoeing, rappelling, whatever. they came back to the yeshivah, and were hanging around, telling of their exploits.
the rosh yeshivah walked in.
they sheepishly explained where they had been,adding that rav srh had said that he wants to have an answer to hashem's question "have you seen my alps?"
the rosh yeshivah responded "i don't know if he will ask you if you saw his alps or not; but one thing i do know for sure--he certainly will ask you if you saw his masseches eiruvin!
i will have to put on my academic sheitl for this one.
but even an academic (not that i accept academic study c"v :-)) would have to explain why such specific language was used.
max: it wasn't or isn't a conscious decision. it's a mesorah, just like torah. father to son, father to son. makes it easier that way, too. tatty says so and so is a gadol, ergo he's a gadol. i heard an audio yesterday of harav gifter, zt"l. he said on the tape that harav shach, zt"l was the gadol hador. that's enough to convince me and the rest of ortho jews that he was.
as far as what's beyond comprehension, that's obvious to the indivual, and to the gedolim as well. when the gemara says not to learn kabbala until age 40, that means age 40, not when you decide it's time. and since age 40 at that time a person knew all of shas baal peh, today it should probably be age 80 or not at all. even your precious rambam says not to learn about the mekava except with 1 talmid chacham. yet everyone thinks they can just go ahead and do what they please, because they have reached such glorious heights in the secular world. a phd in astrophysics in no way qualifies you to learn kabbala.
this is where feeling the pulse of the gemorah comes in. rabbi yonathan objected to the concept of 'drosh vekabel sachar', and to drive across the point expressed himself in an exaggerated manner common to his period. trying to explain 'specific language' brings you to being megale ponim shelo kihalocha.
since you were trying to apply mathematical logic to talmudic text i am surprised by the c'v. academic approach is useful for obtaining proper historical, cultural and linguistic understanding of a talmudic text. if chovos halevovos can use the words of 'amgushi' (a priest of idolatry in the context) to teach us emunah why cannot we learn from the academia? kabel emes miomra, imo. this is the approach of the rationalist school of thought.
"when the gemara says not to learn kabbala until age 40, that means age 40, not when you decide it's time."
where did you conjure up this quote? where is shas does it say this? or did you hokus pokus it?
father to son, father to son. makes it easier that way, too. tatty says so and so is a gadol, ergo he's a gadol.
lech lecha ... mibeis avicho. there is a nice machshova in likutei halochos of r. nosson talmid of r. nachman. he says that since torah is eternal this commandment applies to each and every one of us. every person is brought up with incorrect beliefs due to his environment and parental upbringing. the torah commands us to abandon our preconceived notions and follow the path of g-d similar to avraham avinu.
i dont know the exact daf. exact sources are not as important to me as they are to you. we haredim do not need chapter & verse. someone said that someone said that the gemara said is plenty good enough.
mibais avicha only works if you say my father or anyone's father worshipped idols like avraham's did. but if my father and your father was a ben torah, then you are not allowed to deviate from his teachings, as it violates kibud av.
i'm sure the heilige r. slifkin can tell you where it says about 40 years old. even translating any kabbala sefer into english is a shande, if not a crime altogether. just beczuse you can walk into the library and read any secular book, does not mean you can do the same with any torah sefer. there are restrictions. only a fool would think that if he reads the artscroll version of yechezkel that he can understand the maaseh hamerkava. same with reading an english zohar. pretentious, chutzpahdik, and criminal.
"we haredim do not need chapter & verse. someone said that someone said that the gemara said is plenty good enough."
you'll have to be a bit less over the top if you want to be convincing.
same with reading an english zohar. pretentious, chutzpahdik, and criminal.
criminal? no. criminal is when someone does a crime. rubashkin, for example, committed a crime when he lied on his collateral declarations to the bank for 10 years straight as was proved in court. rubashkin also committed a crime when he perjured himself on the stand in court. the yeshivish world seems to get mixed up quite a lot about what is and what is not a crime.
someone said that someone said that the gemara said is plenty good enough.
talmid has this to say.
as someone from manchester and knowing the rosh very well and mrs kupets your elementary teacher, i can only say i dont believe the story. if you read of the chida travels in london he went to visit the tower. the rosh was brought up in manchester and went to a non-frum co-ed jewish school. he was not the over frum person he is made out to be with no secular knowledge at all. he often went to the alps as well. i think one does a disservice to his great memory writing questionable stories about him.
then there is the third alps story.
rav kook was stuck in europe when ww i broke out. his first safe haven was in switzerland. the nazir, attempting to cheer him up, took him for a trip in the mountains. when asked if the beauty of the mountains didn't move him, rav kook sadly responded "the mountains of eretz yisrael speak to me more..."
i have a third plausible theory. that the story of rav hirsch is pretty well known story and rav segal was just being ironically witty.
agreed. but this could actually be a minor variation of the 2nd explanation: rav segal was negating rav hirsch's opinion by quoting him in a mildly sarcastic way.
this system will also be duplicated to post halloween masks or even fancy dress masks.when mask my partner and i say mask that means so numerous things, considering that the you will find other kind connected with masks for some other occasions.


text:
This term we welcomed new students into Years 5, 7, 10 and 11. I would like to welcome these families to Green House, we are blessed to have such supportive parents and this has continued in 2019. I hope each student has managed to make friendships, get settled into a good routine and have enjoyed their time at Waverley College so far.
Our Year 7 students were involved in an outdoor learning program, the focus was on team building and for the boys to step outside their comfort zone. It was a great chance for students to get to know each other as they started their journey at Waverley. As their Head of House, it was also a great chance to get to know each student. It was a very enjoyable experience, and each boy will have gained valuable friendships from their time away.
All students in Green House attended our annual Green House Mass this year. It was the first time this event has taken place and we look forward to building on this exciting and engaging event. Thanks to all the parents for their involvement and a thank you to our Year 12 students for their service to Green House.
Our Year 10 and Year 5 Waverley students met up for their first Big Brother, Little Brother this term. The Big Brother Little Brother program aims to engage and partner our Senior students as mentors with our Junior school students. It provides a series of opportunities for them to engage with each other throughout the year. Games such as Basketball, Dodgeball, Soccer, Touch Football and Tug of war were enjoyed by all the students. A great time was had by all and a special thank you to all the teachers from both Waterford and the Senior school that helped facilitate this event. We look forward to many more enjoyable experiences.
This term we held the Senior and Junior Swimming carnivals to much fanfare. Thanks must go to all the students that were actively engaged in these exciting events. While Green House did not win either event, the highlight was the engagement of our students. Some other highlights for the term include: The World’s Greatest Shave, wellbeing mentor interviews, the cadet camp, the end of the summer co-curricular season and the start of the winter co-curricular season, Year 9 ballroom dancing, our Green House Easter liturgy, The Amazing Race and our inter-house dodgeball competition.
I must also take this time to thank our Green Mentors for 2019. Green House has been blessed with outstanding teachers who bring life and meaning to everything our students experience. Our team of wellbeing mentors have done a wonderful job in their wellbeing roles this term, building positive relationships with the students and welcoming them every morning. We thank the following staff for their role as Green House mentors in 2019: Junior School: Stephen Ghattas Gabrielle Bransby Senior School: Angur Brotherton (GR01) Melinda Phelps/Ms Jannet Markey (GR02) Jon Walker (GR03) Gary Kennedy (GR04) Kathryn Knowles (GR05) Dominic Hearne (GR06) Daniel Kroll (GR07) Belinda Buchan (GR08) Patrick Darvill (GR09) Nehal Badiani/Julie Barns/Mr Angus Lyons (GR10) Phoebe Guirguis (GR11) I hope you have a relaxing and enjoyable break.

lowercased:
this term we welcomed new students into years 5, 7, 10 and 11. i would like to welcome these families to green house, we are blessed to have such supportive parents and this has continued in 2019. i hope each student has managed to make friendships, get settled into a good routine and have enjoyed their time at waverley college so far.
our year 7 students were involved in an outdoor learning program, the focus was on team building and for the boys to step outside their comfort zone. it was a great chance for students to get to know each other as they started their journey at waverley. as their head of house, it was also a great chance to get to know each student. it was a very enjoyable experience, and each boy will have gained valuable friendships from their time away.
all students in green house attended our annual green house mass this year. it was the first time this event has taken place and we look forward to building on this exciting and engaging event. thanks to all the parents for their involvement and a thank you to our year 12 students for their service to green house.
our year 10 and year 5 waverley students met up for their first big brother, little brother this term. the big brother little brother program aims to engage and partner our senior students as mentors with our junior school students. it provides a series of opportunities for them to engage with each other throughout the year. games such as basketball, dodgeball, soccer, touch football and tug of war were enjoyed by all the students. a great time was had by all and a special thank you to all the teachers from both waterford and the senior school that helped facilitate this event. we look forward to many more enjoyable experiences.
this term we held the senior and junior swimming carnivals to much fanfare. thanks must go to all the students that were actively engaged in these exciting events. while green house did not win either event, the highlight was the engagement of our students. some other highlights for the term include: the world’s greatest shave, wellbeing mentor interviews, the cadet camp, the end of the summer co-curricular season and the start of the winter co-curricular season, year 9 ballroom dancing, our green house easter liturgy, the amazing race and our inter-house dodgeball competition.
i must also take this time to thank our green mentors for 2019. green house has been blessed with outstanding teachers who bring life and meaning to everything our students experience. our team of wellbeing mentors have done a wonderful job in their wellbeing roles this term, building positive relationships with the students and welcoming them every morning. we thank the following staff for their role as green house mentors in 2019: junior school: stephen ghattas gabrielle bransby senior school: angur brotherton (gr01) melinda phelps/ms jannet markey (gr02) jon walker (gr03) gary kennedy (gr04) kathryn knowles (gr05) dominic hearne (gr06) daniel kroll (gr07) belinda buchan (gr08) patrick darvill (gr09) nehal badiani/julie barns/mr angus lyons (gr10) phoebe guirguis (gr11) i hope you have a relaxing and enjoyable break.


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text:
I am wondering if the chap Roseman above might be F/Lt Noel Eric Roseman pff, RNZAF, who served with W/C Bill Simpson in No. 109 Squadron later?
I too am interested in this, and the history of Levin is surprising quiet on the subject. The Weraroa strip was AFAIK and as pjw4118 states West of SH1 in CD Farm Road. However, the Air Force Base was clearly called "Weraroa" but I think it was at Kimberley, a couple of miles to the Southeast. From what I've seen, it appears to me that the strip ran between Kimberley and Tararua Roads and was roughly North-South i.e.at right-angles to the prevailing wind, which I find unusual.
Yeah it was your book and other research that led me back here and then I spotted Roseman and thought it had to be the same man. Also missing from that No. 109 Squadron photo was Alan Dray DFC pff. He was from here in Leamington, Cambridge.
Over Xmas I spent a bit of time in Levin looking for more details about Weraroa.
Originally the CD ( Central Development )Farm road area and Kimberley Rd ( RNZAF ) were both part of an 800 acre Government owned block , munch of which remained State owned until the late 1980s. Originally an experimental farm the Wereroa part became Levin State Farm for " unemployed elderly men. " and reformatory school for boys. In 1918 it also held religious conscientious objectors.
In 1939 the Kimberly Road site was commandeered by the RNZAF and the borstal moved across to CD Road over a weekend.
Things happened quickly in those days , a request to the PWD to provide a satellite airfield for Ohakea at Weraroa was made on 1/7/41 and the airfield opened a month later. As well as an ITW , ground radar operators were trained there and although uniformed as RNZAF or WAAFs they did not come under Air Force control.
Post war the borstal remained in CD road and was extended , having its own cell block built in 1966.The borstal closed in 1989 and today the site remains mainly empty but perhaps with Waitangi obligations. It is classified as Historic Cat 1.
Three movies were made at the site and named Kohitiri , they are available on NZ on Air Film .
I will post a couple of photos of the CD road remains.
The site of the old Kimberley Hospital is now being developed into a retirement village, so eventually any WWII vintage buildings still on the site will probably disappear. They're keeping/renovating the chapel apparently, but I don't know if that's WWII or post-war.
Maybe Bruce, but I do recall we had a lot of outdoor lectures on our Basic Training course at GSTS, Woodbourne, in 1989 too. I can see merit in outdoor lectures for some things, like the compass bearing training, parachute training (they usually popped one and infated it in the wind to demonstrate its parts), etc.
The Kiwi of the air stations — it possesses no "wings' — Weraroa is the Royal New Zealand Air Force's "intake" point for all pilots, observers and air gunners. It is the place where the men who will have wings are grounded in the first steps of their training.
For this preliminary course the Air Force took over from the Education Department one of its training institutions, a mile or so outside Levin, equipped with well-planned gardens, plenty of green sward and good permanent buildings. For additional accommodation new dormitories and streets of boarded tents have been spread over the adjoining paddocks.
Immediately on arrival the recruit makes a complete break with the old life by packing up his "civvies" and donning the Air Force blue uniform. In an article Charles E. Wheeler gives the initial issue to the recruit, the complete total of his official possessions: one greatcoat, two complete uniforms, two pairs socks, two pairs boots, two shirts and four collars, clothes-brush, button-brush and stick, tie, gym. vest, canvas gym. shoes, two caps and badges, five blankets (more can be obtained at choice), one pair of sheets and a pillow slip (regularly replaced as they require washing).
At first parades of new recruits, uniforms are closely scrutinised, suggestions for improvement noted, and a visit to the camp tailor eventually produces a smart fit.
"Training makes you one step better than the enemy," is the axiom learned at the first lecture. There is so much study in the Air Force that the men are relieved of most fatigues. The course is intensive. Men must keep their uniforms clean, and modern facilities including a drying-room are available for their personal washing. But there are no cook-house fatigues, nor is the recruit required to clean up the camp grounds — he has quite enough to do with his studies, varied by some early morning physical exercises, and breaks between lectures.
Most of the young men get to bed by 9 p.m. Every man has a wardrobe, and sleeps on a spring mattress. He must be tidy. In the morning bed clothes have to be folded into a neat pile like a sandwich at the end of the stretcher.
The men come to mess with their own cups and cutlery; they line up to be served, and find the tables laid for the rest. Diet is planned to include raw and cooked fruit, and fresh vegetables such as lettuce. The men are represented on a messing committee, where with the camp officers including the doctor, the dietary scale is decided periodically.
Recruits are immediately formed into flights of a convenient number for lectures, possibly 30 in a group. They go through the course together, and are sent as a flight to their next station. They elect two of their number to exercise control, marching them to meals and making sure that every member of the flight attends lectures. This system assists in their development of friendships and builds a disciplined body with some idea of Air Force traditions and obligations. The course for pilots is six weeks, for observers two months, and for gunners about a month.
Most of the air gunners and observers go straight to Canada, under the Empire air training scheme. The "rough spots" have been knocked off. They then know a good deal about the guns used on aircraft, understand much of the technical side of radio transmission, and have a sound groundwork in navigation. So much has to be taught in this first month that only one week-end leave is given during the whole period.
Experienced officers, from knowledge of the young airmen and records of their examinations, can determine what they can best do in the Air Force; that an individual is marked out for a pilot, an observer, or that he will develop into a skilled gunner. The station has many lecture rooms, and a large staff of qualified officers who invite questions and test the attention of the class by occasional discussion.
"Your training," he adds, "is aimed at bringing out all these attributes."
Articles like the above make me realise the RNZAF recruit training in the 1940's was so similar to when I went through in 1989, it shows they knew what they were doing, they found the best method and stuck to it. Not like the civilian education system.
I also learned a new word fro that article, "sward" - an open expanse of short grass.
The property at Levin which used to be the Weraroa Boys’ Training Farm, but was an Air Force training station for several years during the war, is now being used by the Mental Hospitals Department for the accommodation of children in the same class as those at Templeton farm colony, near Christchurch. The existence of such an institution in the North Island will enable children who require to live in one to be nearer their homes, if their homes are in the North Island, than they would be at Templeton. The patients which the department has at Templeton and intends to have at Levin are children who are mentally deficient but not insane, including some who are adult in years but have remained childish mentally. They require protection from the hazards of normal life, but live and work satisfactorily in an institution.
This map comes from the National Library's collection.
I only just found out that the property next door (ie RNZAF Wereroa) was a WW2 ground training unit from speaking with the previous owner! I then did a bit of digging and it brought me here. Fascinating stuff, I’m a bit of a military history junkie as being a serving member of the NZDF (and ex RN) such info is of great personal interest. I’m going to collate maps and aerial photos to make a display for the wall of the man cave as with the redevelopment of the site much of the remaining fabric and infrastructure will likely be lost.
If I were you , get over the fence and collect any items of interest , as I am sure that there are a few boards with carefully carved names in some of the old dorms/classrooms !

lowercased:
i am wondering if the chap roseman above might be f/lt noel eric roseman pff, rnzaf, who served with w/c bill simpson in no. 109 squadron later?
i too am interested in this, and the history of levin is surprising quiet on the subject. the weraroa strip was afaik and as pjw4118 states west of sh1 in cd farm road. however, the air force base was clearly called "weraroa" but i think it was at kimberley, a couple of miles to the southeast. from what i've seen, it appears to me that the strip ran between kimberley and tararua roads and was roughly north-south i.e.at right-angles to the prevailing wind, which i find unusual.
yeah it was your book and other research that led me back here and then i spotted roseman and thought it had to be the same man. also missing from that no. 109 squadron photo was alan dray dfc pff. he was from here in leamington, cambridge.
over xmas i spent a bit of time in levin looking for more details about weraroa.
originally the cd ( central development )farm road area and kimberley rd ( rnzaf ) were both part of an 800 acre government owned block , munch of which remained state owned until the late 1980s. originally an experimental farm the wereroa part became levin state farm for " unemployed elderly men. " and reformatory school for boys. in 1918 it also held religious conscientious objectors.
in 1939 the kimberly road site was commandeered by the rnzaf and the borstal moved across to cd road over a weekend.
things happened quickly in those days , a request to the pwd to provide a satellite airfield for ohakea at weraroa was made on 1/7/41 and the airfield opened a month later. as well as an itw , ground radar operators were trained there and although uniformed as rnzaf or waafs they did not come under air force control.
post war the borstal remained in cd road and was extended , having its own cell block built in 1966.the borstal closed in 1989 and today the site remains mainly empty but perhaps with waitangi obligations. it is classified as historic cat 1.
three movies were made at the site and named kohitiri , they are available on nz on air film .
i will post a couple of photos of the cd road remains.
the site of the old kimberley hospital is now being developed into a retirement village, so eventually any wwii vintage buildings still on the site will probably disappear. they're keeping/renovating the chapel apparently, but i don't know if that's wwii or post-war.
maybe bruce, but i do recall we had a lot of outdoor lectures on our basic training course at gsts, woodbourne, in 1989 too. i can see merit in outdoor lectures for some things, like the compass bearing training, parachute training (they usually popped one and infated it in the wind to demonstrate its parts), etc.
the kiwi of the air stations — it possesses no "wings' — weraroa is the royal new zealand air force's "intake" point for all pilots, observers and air gunners. it is the place where the men who will have wings are grounded in the first steps of their training.
for this preliminary course the air force took over from the education department one of its training institutions, a mile or so outside levin, equipped with well-planned gardens, plenty of green sward and good permanent buildings. for additional accommodation new dormitories and streets of boarded tents have been spread over the adjoining paddocks.
immediately on arrival the recruit makes a complete break with the old life by packing up his "civvies" and donning the air force blue uniform. in an article charles e. wheeler gives the initial issue to the recruit, the complete total of his official possessions: one greatcoat, two complete uniforms, two pairs socks, two pairs boots, two shirts and four collars, clothes-brush, button-brush and stick, tie, gym. vest, canvas gym. shoes, two caps and badges, five blankets (more can be obtained at choice), one pair of sheets and a pillow slip (regularly replaced as they require washing).
at first parades of new recruits, uniforms are closely scrutinised, suggestions for improvement noted, and a visit to the camp tailor eventually produces a smart fit.
"training makes you one step better than the enemy," is the axiom learned at the first lecture. there is so much study in the air force that the men are relieved of most fatigues. the course is intensive. men must keep their uniforms clean, and modern facilities including a drying-room are available for their personal washing. but there are no cook-house fatigues, nor is the recruit required to clean up the camp grounds — he has quite enough to do with his studies, varied by some early morning physical exercises, and breaks between lectures.
most of the young men get to bed by 9 p.m. every man has a wardrobe, and sleeps on a spring mattress. he must be tidy. in the morning bed clothes have to be folded into a neat pile like a sandwich at the end of the stretcher.
the men come to mess with their own cups and cutlery; they line up to be served, and find the tables laid for the rest. diet is planned to include raw and cooked fruit, and fresh vegetables such as lettuce. the men are represented on a messing committee, where with the camp officers including the doctor, the dietary scale is decided periodically.
recruits are immediately formed into flights of a convenient number for lectures, possibly 30 in a group. they go through the course together, and are sent as a flight to their next station. they elect two of their number to exercise control, marching them to meals and making sure that every member of the flight attends lectures. this system assists in their development of friendships and builds a disciplined body with some idea of air force traditions and obligations. the course for pilots is six weeks, for observers two months, and for gunners about a month.
most of the air gunners and observers go straight to canada, under the empire air training scheme. the "rough spots" have been knocked off. they then know a good deal about the guns used on aircraft, understand much of the technical side of radio transmission, and have a sound groundwork in navigation. so much has to be taught in this first month that only one week-end leave is given during the whole period.
experienced officers, from knowledge of the young airmen and records of their examinations, can determine what they can best do in the air force; that an individual is marked out for a pilot, an observer, or that he will develop into a skilled gunner. the station has many lecture rooms, and a large staff of qualified officers who invite questions and test the attention of the class by occasional discussion.
"your training," he adds, "is aimed at bringing out all these attributes."
articles like the above make me realise the rnzaf recruit training in the 1940's was so similar to when i went through in 1989, it shows they knew what they were doing, they found the best method and stuck to it. not like the civilian education system.
i also learned a new word fro that article, "sward" - an open expanse of short grass.
the property at levin which used to be the weraroa boys’ training farm, but was an air force training station for several years during the war, is now being used by the mental hospitals department for the accommodation of children in the same class as those at templeton farm colony, near christchurch. the existence of such an institution in the north island will enable children who require to live in one to be nearer their homes, if their homes are in the north island, than they would be at templeton. the patients which the department has at templeton and intends to have at levin are children who are mentally deficient but not insane, including some who are adult in years but have remained childish mentally. they require protection from the hazards of normal life, but live and work satisfactorily in an institution.
this map comes from the national library's collection.
i only just found out that the property next door (ie rnzaf wereroa) was a ww2 ground training unit from speaking with the previous owner! i then did a bit of digging and it brought me here. fascinating stuff, i’m a bit of a military history junkie as being a serving member of the nzdf (and ex rn) such info is of great personal interest. i’m going to collate maps and aerial photos to make a display for the wall of the man cave as with the redevelopment of the site much of the remaining fabric and infrastructure will likely be lost.
if i were you , get over the fence and collect any items of interest , as i am sure that there are a few boards with carefully carved names in some of the old dorms/classrooms !