In this interview, we talk about perceptions, being brown in Montreal vs London, and the sense of identity.
Art by Joseph Lee, josephleeart.com

In this interview, we talk about perceptions, being brown in Montreal vs London, and the sense of identity. Madeline Jun 8·12 min read

I met the interviewee while working at a clothing store. This was my first professional experience in Montreal, Canada, where I had been living for a few months. The section I was responsible for, Winter Coats, brought me in contact with a lot of people. With winter approaching, we had lots of visitors, especially newcomers. “T”, as we’ll call her for the sake of this introduction, had just moved to Montreal as well and was looking for a new coat. We spoke for a bit and I immediately felt like we were on the same page. I thought she was very nice. As she had brown skin and an English accent, I immediately thought of her when I started this project. For those who just landed here, this interview is part of a series of interviews exploring different perspectives on racism and religion.

Is it your first time living abroad?

No, I lived in Glasgow, Scotland for 6 months and then in Copenhagen for another 6 months. Eden (her husband) and I felt like it was a really good time to leave London because we were so established there with our friends and our work…. but we thought that the experience of leaving the country would be a good time to enrich our lives, do something interesting and have an adventure.

Was living abroad a must-do?

I’ve always wanted to do it, so for me, it was just finding the right opportunity. In a really black and white way, I feel like you need to be strategic about where you move. Because yes, you can absolutely move wherever you want, but I personally wouldn’t do it without knowing what was on the other side. I can be flexible and adjustable to an extent, but going abroad is already stressful as it is. I didn’t want to put the extra stress of not having a job. But I ended up doing the complete opposite of what I just said! My husband wanted to go somewhere and I was like: « oh okay, let’s do it ». Let’s just go on an adventure and see what happens. My brain just went out the window! But we were still a bit strategic about it because he got several job offers abroad and based on those, we decided where to go.

Why did you want to live abroad?

It enriches your life a lot more in the sense of experience. I think it is really important that you get as many experiences as you can because it adds to how rich you are as a person. But for me, I guess there has always been a sense of travel as well in my family. My parents grew up in east Africa and then came over to London to start their lives. My sister lived in Paris for a bit and then in Italy for 3 years, so we always liked the idea of absorbing other cultures. Staying in what you know is really comfortable, but it’s also very insular and to me, that can be really dangerous.

“My parents are from two different religions, which in Indian cultures is a really big thing.”

What do you mean?

When people stick to what they have always known, they don’t push themselves to learn more. So I think it’s dangerous in the sense of… (she pauses) you don’t have your eyes open. And you can be really ignorant about the world and not be educated. And for some that’s okay, but for me, it’s just frightening. I guess in the way I’ve been brought up, we’ve always been very open. My parents are from two different religions, which in Indian cultures is a really big thing. And my sister always was the one that was going off on cultural adventures and she would always come back and share her experience. In that prospect, you just learn about things and I just think it’s really important to keep on learning.

“What I have more an issue about is the perception around not being educated that comes from being brown.”

I find it interesting to see how our experiences abroad vary depending on where we come from. What has your experience been here so far?

In terms of the place, I would say it’s really interesting to see how French Montreal is and the level of Frenchness it has. I know it sounds like an obvious one, but I didn’t realize how strong this french identity is to Quebec. It’s a really strange mix of being really friendly, really Canadian, but then very french, very European in the sense of these formalities of things it brings. It’s a really weird combo for me because when I’m in Europe I know where the boundaries are, I know what the rules are, but here, in Canada, because it’s in North America, they are a lot more informal about things. For me, that’s always about navigating and I find that quite interesting.

Secondly, racially, I find Montreal less integrate, less mixed, which I never realized until other people came here and pointed that out to me. In fact, my husband’s sister and her Mexican boyfriend came to visit and her observations were:”wow it’s really white”. And I was like “oh yes, I guess so”. I don’t mind it. What I have more an issue about is the perception around not being educated that comes from being brown. If I am speaking French and I’m in a situation where I am feeling judged or taken advantage of, then I’m clear of my English and I’m just like « look, I’m not from here, but give me some respect”. Because of the whole dynamic of Montreal, it seems that having an English accent has more ways here in terms of perceptions. As soon as I speak English and the way I speak it as well, they know that I’m a Brit. In their mind, it places me at a certain level of education. It’s as simple as that. I haven’t had any weird experiences yet, but I think it’s always extreme for me. If I don’t open my mouth then they just kind of assume that I’m Indian. It makes me feel sad about it because I want to be speaking French and I want to be trying.

“I’m probably more aware of myself being brown here than I have ever been before.”

Do you feel like you have to speak english to make a point?

Yes, and it’s amazing what an accent can do. That and a ring! It’s a really sad thing. Now, because of the whole Trump scenario, I’m really aware that they really do look me up and down when we go through borders. I really feel like I’m much more exposed to that as we travel,but only when we come towards North America. Otherwise it’s pretty chilled out, but I always try and make sure I’m a bit more put together when we travel and I wear my engagement ring, because it’s quite sizable. Those are really basic things, but this is what I mean by perception: visual signals.

I’m probably more aware of myself being brown here than I have ever been before. I come from an extremely integrative place. In London, no matter what you wear, it’s really clear that you are not from India. In that way, I find Montreal to be quite innocent. They haven’t really been exposed to a lot of cultures and their idea of different cultures or different communities is really exotic. It’s almost naive and romantic. But I have met very friendly people here and that’s been really nice, but with that comes the good and the bad. I’m navigating between people who have a perception of me versus people that actually genuinely wants to make friends and want to have a conversation. Professionally, it’s kind of frustrating because I’m known as the wife of a director so they don’t know that I have the skills set and that I am my own person. At the moment it’s still kind of evolving. But my experience here has been really positive so far.

The experience of living abroad changes things. How did it change for you?

Probably realizing how spoiled you are in London and how much you have at your doorstep, culturally in arts. It really stands apart for me. I’m realizing that it’s not the same in every place. In the way that I feed off things in terms of style, in terms of culture, I realize that I have to find different ways of feeding myself here than I would normally do back in London. Montreal is trying to cultivate their renowned but you can definitely see that the quality and the level of culture and art that you are exposed to and that you have access to is not the same. But other than that, my perception is more the benefits that we had. The food and drink are amazing here and it made us realized, for example, that vegan food does not really exist that well in London!

I guess the perception of our culture also changes. I met a few french people that live here actually and I’ve also spoken to many people as I’m learning french and this french lady said something really interesting to me the other day. She said that the french come here and tend to stay together. They just find more comfort in that, but she said that the English approach it in a different way. And she didn’t really go into too much details, but I was really curious about what she meant by that. There is this element of: « Yes, I’m British, you know, whatever », because our accent is so predominant. But I think we are quite open and receptive about whats happening around us and when we are taken abroad, we try to absorb the culture. It’s interesting to see how people from different nationalities react when they are abroad. I guess it’s also because I’m Indian so, the combination of being British and being Indian and having these kind of social fabrics and putting them in a whole different dynamic is interesting and I’m still learning about it.

When you were 18 years old, how were you and where were you?

I was and still am I guess, very hungry and very ambitious. I had just finished college and because I went to art school I had to do an extra foundation year. I was just about to spend it in a really prestigious art college in London, so I was super excited about entering this whole creative learning process. It’s kind of a weird transition to make when you’re 18. I kind of knew what I wanted to do but I also kind of knew that I wanted to travel. Around that time my sister had just come back from Paris and she had such a great time and I just really wanted that. I really wanted to learn and have my adventure.

Have you changed much since then?

I’m a bit more relaxed now. As people get older, they are a bit more chilled out. I definitely had this real kind of hunger and ambition and focus…because you know, at 18 you’ve got this crazy energy. You think you can take over the world. But as I get older, as much as I know what I want, it also becomes diffused a lot more because you have other elements in your life, such as getting married and having a husband or having children and it really does start getting mixed up really quickly and then it’s like: « How can I fulfill what I need to do inside. I want to create things, I want to do things, but at the same time, make sure my husband’s okay and make a balance…” People still struggle with it, I still struggle with it. I probably haven’t changed much, but I have got a few more lines!

“I have a really strong sense of cultural identity”

What are the things in your life that shaped you?

I think that people really have a huge impact on me. I really like to absorb their knowledge, but also their attitude to things. Obviously, because I have a really strong sense of cultural identity, my family is a really huge part of my life. My sister who is 7 years older than me had all these cultural experiences that massively changed how I approach things and my love for food, for wine, for languages, for new experiences… It all comes from her and us wanting to share that and embrace that as much as we can. But then, weirdly, I would say my ex-boyfriends. They were very very English so that was kind of a different world that they introduced me to. Then, obviously, my husband because he is American and he approaches things in a very different way than I do. Then, art and culture both have a huge impact in my life. But also things like work.

When I left the university, I worked for one of the most commercial department store in London with very high fashion brands. So you’ve got Lanvin, channel, Balenciaga, etc. I didn’t realize what I had walked into. There were lots of very strong people and lots of big egos and I had to deal with these people. So not only did I have to work with a team but I also had to deal with these brands and some were great, and some were awful and unbelievably rude. It was 2 years of hell. It nearly broke me, but it also made me at the same time. I learned a huge amount in terms of people, in terms of politics, dynamics and I learned a lot about the job itself. It was also a big growing up time for me, in terms of taking responsibility about things. It’s character building and it definitely gave me an hindsight and a sense of balance. My attitude towards work and also not taking any shit came from that time. I went on to do consultancy in the cultural sector in London for a cultural start up. They were both kind of really brutal and hard going jobs. It really kind of shaped my confidence. When you come out of the university, like I said before, you think you’re going to change the world and be amazing and do these crazy things and then you realize that there are so many complicated factors and that is what actually allows you to grow up. So I think that had a huge impact on my life in terms of how I approach things now. Like I said, I’m probably a lot more chilled out, a lot more pragmatic and more practical about how I approach things, but also probably a lot more sensitive to situations rather than just going and just being a bully.

The store seemed like a tough experience for you. What made you stay for two years?

I really wanted to make it work because I have a lot of pride in what I do and I can only do something the best that I can do it. I felt like I wasn’t very good at the job so, therefore, I had to work harder, stay late at night and be on top of it. I was learning a huge amount and I wanted to leave the situation or the job knowing that I was leaving on a good note. It was my first job after university and I clearly had lots to learn and I wanted to be a sponge and absorb it as much as I could. But I also wanted to leave with my head help up. I just went on with it for as long as I could.

Have you ever questioned who you are?

I think if you met my family, you would probably see where my confidence comes from. I’m very very lucky in the sense that my mom and my dad have never been like: « it’s you. You need to sort this out. You need to get yourself together, etc ». There are just like “you are you”. My parents are real quite confident, social and I guess charismatic in their own way. The confidence I have… it’s just me being me. I don’t question myself in these moments, I just think that: “alright I’m just gonna try and do it”. I don’t think about myself too much, I just try to do it whereas my husband is much more like: “maybe I should do it like this, or like this”, and me, I just do it my way. If it’s my opinion, I’m gonna be very confident. But I should be more considerate and a bit more cautious in certain scenarios.

To conclude, how would you define yourself after all that has been said?

I’m English, firstly. This idea of Brit (British) is really a new thing for me, I’m English. I am really Indian in terms of my culture and my identity, but I’m not one of those who says « I’m a British Asian ». For me it’s obvious and I think about it less and less, but at the same time, the identity is stronger and stronger. And then you put my husband in the mix, who’s American and it gets complicated! We’re kind of a real multi-racial couple so I guess it becomes less of a thing and they just see us as an American and an English person.
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['Montreal', 'Perception', 'Culture Change', 'Identity', 'London']