British Wreck Commissioner's Inquiry

Day 16

Testimony of Joseph B. Ismay

Examined by the ATTORNEY-GENERAL.

- Yes.

18225. And that Company was the owner of the "Titanic"?
- Yes.

18226. You are also, I think, Managing director of the Oceanic Steam Navigation Company, Limited?
- Yes.

- Yes.

18228. With its registered office at Liverpool?
- With its registered office at Liverpool.

18229. And the Oceanic Steam Navigation Company owns all the White Star Line steamers?
- Yes, the Oceanic Steam Navigation Company is the legal name of the Company.

- Yes.

18231. The White Star Line runs from New York to Liverpool, does it?
- Yes.

18232. And New York to Southampton?
- Yes, and to many other ports as well.

18233. And also from Liverpool to Australia?
- Yes.

18234. And from Liverpool to New Zealand?
- Yes, and to Canada.

18235. I was going to ask about that - and also the mediterranean?
- Yes.

18236. And from Boston to the mediterranean?
- Yes.

18237. And from Montreal to Liverpool?
- Yes.

18238. Then there is the mississippi and Dominion Line. Has that anything to do with the Oceanic Steam Navigation Company?
- No.

18239. That is another?
- It is a separate company altogether.

- Yes.

18241. Is the International Mercantile marine Company the name of the American company?
- Yes.

18242. What one speaks of for convenience as the American Shipping Trust?
- Yes.

18243. I do not mean to suggest that it is a Trust - there is some objection, I believe, in America to calling it a Trust, but I only want to get the fact so that we may see where we are about it. That is the American company?
- Yes.

- Yes.

18245. That I have referred to for convenience to save a long name as the American Trust. Are the Oceanic Steam Navigation Company's shares a most important branch of the American Company's assets?
- Yes.

- Very nearly.

18247. Then the American Trust also controls the mississippi and Dominion Line, does it not?
- Yes.

18248. It runs from Montreal to Liverpool?
- And from Avonmouth to Canada.

18249. Then there is the British North Atlantic?
- Yes.

18250. Does that also run from Liverpool to Canada?
- Yes.

- Yes.

18252. Then I think there is also the Atlantic Transport Company, is there not?
- Yes.

18253. And are the shares held in the same way by the American Trust?
- Yes.

18254. The Atlantic Transport Company is an English registered company?
- Yes.

18255. And that also runs from London to New York?

- There is the American Line and the Red Star Line.

18257. I said with the exception of the American Lines?
- Yes.

- It holds a controlling interest in the Leyland Line.

18259. (The Attorney-General.) My Lord, the Leyland Line, you will remember, would be the owners of the "Californian," that is the point of it. (To the witness.) And you have mentioned the Red Star, which was an American Line, which is also owned by the American Trust?
- Yes, the American Line running between Southampton and New York.

18260. (The Commissioner.) How many lines of steamers does the American Trust control?
- Do you mean how many companies, My Lord, or how many different lines?

18261. I mean how many companies altogether - British companies?
- Five, I think it is.

18262. How many American companies does it control?
- Two.

- Yes, with the exception of the Leyland Line.

18264. You told me they had a controlling interest?
- Yes, there is a controlling interest in the Leyland Line.

The Attorney-General:

The Commissioner:

18265. (The Attorney-General.) That is it, My Lord. (To the witness.) Does the tonnage of these vessels owned or controlled by the American Trust in the way you have described represent about a million tons altogether?

18266. In round figures it is a million tons?
- Yes, in round figures it is a million tons.

- Yes.

The Commissioner:
They are registered, I suppose?

The Attorney-General:

The Commissioner:
Although these ships, including the "Titanic," are registered under the British flag, they are in fact American property?

The Witness:


The Attorney-General:

The Witness:
Very likely so.

18269. (The Commissioner.) Some of the shares may be owned by Frenchmen, I suppose?
- Certainly.

- I am afraid I cannot answer that question, My Lord.

18271. I should think you ought to know. You know that in substance the "Titanic" was an American-owned ship?
- That is true.

18272. In substance, and I want to know why an American company should manage its ships, or why it registers its ships under english management or under the English flag?
- Those ships could not be registered under the American flag.

18273. Why not?
- Because the ships are built, I suppose, in this country.



18276. And there are no American gentlemen on the board?
- In America, yes; there is a Board of Directors in America. The Chairman of the board of Directors is an American, and there are a great many Americans on the board, and English people.

18277. (The Attorney-General.) I suppose it works out in this way, that the shares are held by the English company, and the ship is registered in consequence as a British ship?
- Yes.

- That is true.

18279. Now, I want you just to tell me about the building of the "Olympic" and the "Titanic," two sister vessels. I am not going to ask you the details of the construction, I am going to keep that for skilled Witnesses, and those who have had more to do with it and who know - but generally speaking, first of all, have you any financial interest by way of shareholding or otherwise in the firm of Harland and Wolff?
- Absolutely none.


- Cost price, plus a percentage. We build no ships by contract at all.


18283. Do you give your orders for the construction of a vessel in writing?
- Yes.

18284. Then substantially it is as you say?

- Yes, that is referred to in the letter.

- Yes, practically the whole fleet has been built upon those terms.

18287. And the "Olympic" and "Titanic" were both built upon those terms?
- Exactly.

- Yes, and discussed between us and then settled on.

18289. Will you give me approximately what the cost of the "Titanic" was?
- A million and a half sterling.

18290. Now you were on board the "Titanic" on this voyage?
- I was.

18291. You sailed in her as a passenger?
- I did.

18292. You joined her first, I think, at Southampton?
- Yes.

18293. Then you went to Cherbourg, and from Cherbourg to queenstown?
- Yes.

18294. As we know, she left Queenstown on the 11th April?
- Yes.

18295. She carried mails as well as passengers?
- Yes.

18296. That was under contract which you had with the British Government?
- Yes.

18297. That contract is, of course, in writing?
- Yes.

18298. Can you produce it?
- I have not got it here, but it can be produced.

- Yes.

- No.


- It is down in writing.


- I do.

18305. With the Doctor?
- Yes.

18306. On this very fateful day?
- Yes.

18307. Did the Captain dine with you?
- He did not.

18308. (The Attorney-General.) My Lord, you appreciate why I ask that?
- The Doctor dined with me; there was nobody else at our table.

- Yes, I believe he was; in fact, I know he was.

18310. At all events, you say he was not dining with you that evening?

- Naturally I was interested in the ship.

18312. I mean, you had nothing to do in New York; you travelled because you wanted to make the first passage on the "Titanic"?
- Partly; but I can always find something to do.

18313. I mean to say, you were not travelling in the "Titanic" because you wanted to go to New York, but because you wanted to travel upon the maiden trip of the "Titanic"?
- Yes.

- Naturally.


18316. That was the real object of your travelling on the "Titanic"?
- And to observe the ship.

- So far as the navigation of the ship was concerned, yes.

18318. That I will ask you some questions later on about. I am not suggesting that you controlled the navigation, but what I suggest to you is that it would not be right to describe you as really travelling on that ship as an ordinary passenger, because of the interest you had in the "Titanic," and because of your natural watchfulness as to the behaviour of the "Titanic" on her first voyage?
- I looked upon myself simply as an ordinary passenger.

18319. You have told us in what capacity you were travelling across the Atlantic?
- Yes.

18320. (The Commissioner.) Did you pay your fare?
- No, I did not.

18321. (The Attorney-General.) You recognise, do you not, that my Lord's question is one which rather disposes of the ordinary passenger theory, does it not; however, I will not press it?

18322. (The Commissioner.) If you had travelled in a Cunarder you would not have paid?
- No.

18323. (The Attorney-General.) Now I think we understand what you mean when you say you were travelling as a passenger. Now on this day, on the 14th, did you get information from the Captain of ice reports?
- The Captain handed me a Marconi message which he had received from the "Baltic" on the Sunday.

18324. He handed you the actual message as it was delivered to him from the "Baltic"?
- Yes.

18325. Do you remember at what time it was?
- I think it was just before lunch.

18326. On the Sunday?
- Yes, on the Sunday.

The Attorney-General:
Your Lordship remembers the message from the "Baltic." I am going to hand up to you a little later a document which gives the messages in their proper order of dates, but this is the one I am referring to now - I will read it. It is sent at 11.52 a.m. to Captain Smith, "Titanic": "Have had moderate, variable winds and clear, fine weather since leaving. Greek steamer 'Athenai' reports passing icebergs and large quantity of field ice today in latitude 41.51 N., longitude 49.52 W." If your Lordship will take this list you will see how convenient it is (Handing up a copy.) We will have some more printed to hand up to the assessors.

The Commissioner:
Yes, it would be very convenient for all my colleagues to have a copy of this before them.

The Attorney-General:
Yes; we have got them printed. Strictly speaking, of course, we shall have to prove these, and they will be proved. If your Lordship will look at page 2, or, perhaps, it would be better if you will look at page 1 first to see how this is compiled. First of all, you have the copies of messages received by the "Titanic" between midnight of the 11th April, 1912, up to the 14th of April, 10.25 New York time, when her distress signals were first received. That is what I said we would have done before we adjourned. If your Lordship will look at page 2 you will see the message of the "Baltic" in the middle. It is referred to as the message book No. 77. You see it is to "Captain Smith, 'Titanic.'" You have it, no doubt.

The Commissioner:

The Attorney-General:
That is the one which contains a further reference after the figure which I just gave you, "Greek steamer 'Athenai' reports passing icebergs and large quantity of field ice today in latitude 41.51 N., longitude 49.52 W. Last night we spoke German Oil Tank 'Deutschland,' Stettin to Philadelphia. Not under control. Short of coal, latitude 40.42 N., longitude 55.11." Now if your Lordship would like to complete this whilst you have got it before you, you will find, if you turn to the bottom of page 4 of the same document, the answer, "Time received 12.55 p.m. To Commander of 'Baltic.' Thanks for your message and good wishes. Had fine weather since leaving - Smith." Your Lordship will recollect that both these messages are said to be New York time. According to the description we have got here of the message sent and the message received, that is according to the evidence you have already got from the marconi Company, New York time.

The Commissioner:
I have got it marked in my own note that the message was sent out by the "Baltic" at 3.19.

The Attorney-General:
I think that is too late. You say, sent out by the "Baltic."

The Commissioner:

The Attorney-General:
That would be too late; it must be rather before two, anything from one to before two.

The Commissioner:
Two o'clock. Your opening was not quite in accordance with what we know today.

The Attorney-General:
The statement in the affidavit, I agree, is not quite the same as we have now got it.

The Commissioner:
There is a substantial difference.

The Attorney-General:
Yes, we know the facts now.

The Commissioner:
I rather gathered from the Solicitor-General's examination that the difference was of no consequence, but it seems to me to make a substantial difference. There was only one message from the "Baltic."

The Attorney-General:
That is all as far as we know, and we have been examining into it because of what was said originally by the Captain of the "Baltic" upon affidavit, upon which the statement was made if your Lordship remembers.

The Commissioner:
However, this is the printed message in this document.

18327. (The Attorney-General.) Yes, that is quite right. I rather think my learned friend did say something with regard to it. He agreed that it made a difference, of course, because it did not agree with the statement in the affidavit, and we mentioned that we would enquire into it, and we have got it now. Of course, there is the message, and, as you will appreciate, we attribute very great importance to that particular message; we think it is of very great importance. (To the witness.) Now what I want to understand from you is this - that message was handed to you by Captain Smith, you say?
- Yes.

18328. Handed to you because you were the managing director of the company?
- I do not know; it was a matter of information.

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