Friday, May 15, 2009

Lost "The Incident": The Comments

I've decided whenever I have no obvious photo to accompany something, I'm going to push my book. I'm shameless.

So... I booked off yesterday from work so I could keep on top of all the comments, and I had two appointments in the afternoon but an hour between them, so during that hour I sat in the car with my laptop checking in, and then last night I wrote up my DocArzt post. And it just occurred to me that I never actually POSTED it on the site, so I just did that (ugh) and reworded the beginning of it so it sounded like I totally meant to post it today. :)

There's a lot of stuff in there, mostly me giving kudos to all of you for being such awesome readers, so I hope DocArzt won't mind if I also post it over here. I wanted to get some more discussion going, and you can leave your comments here or over on the other post (or at Doc's site, if you prefer). Which, by the way, I haven't been able to check comments on since about dinnertime last night, so I have some catching up to do!!! Ugh. Sorry to everyone who is still posting and wondering where the heck I went to. AND when I was working on this post last night I found a whole section of comments (including two really long ones from Sonshine) that I'd never seen right in the middle of the first page of comments, so I'm really sorry I didn't respond to those! I'll get to them today, I hope. But I'm sure you guys are handling it just fine on your own. So without any further ado, here's my post, pasted here. If you've been following all the comments, half of it you'll already know, and the other half is my own new speculations and things I keep meaning to post but I get so caught up in the discussions I run out of time!

And with a fade to white, it was over. The screen was the same white as my knuckles, which were clenched in tight fists as I yelled, “NOOOOOOOOO” at my television screen. Remember that ending of The Sopranos? This one was more shocking to me. (And by the way, I’m in the love camp on that Sopranos ending.)

But back to Lost. Yesterday was crazy busy; monitoring the blog, posting updates constantly, doing radio interviews where I try to explain Lost to listeners who haven’t seen it (and can I just say that unlike back in season 2, I can no longer do that in the “25 words or less” that radio hosts love to throw around). And in the end, I didn’t get a chance to post something here. What was I going to write that was in any way coherent? Aside from my original blog post on the episode, I posted on Jacob and who I’m calling MaybEsau; the Jacob’s ladder imagery we’ve seen on the show and how it plays into things now; the foot statue; and a funny clip of Matthew Fox on Kimmel. Hey, you gotta have SOME light moments.

So rather than a long coherent post on one topic, I think I’m going to post a smattering of thoughts, mostly generated by my brilliant readers, who kept the comments boards buzzing on my site all day yesterday and long into the night. These are all the things I didn’t talk about in my original post. Here goes.

• Several fans posited that Juliet was actually pregnant when she fell down the shaft. Which, of course, makes that moment all the more devastating. She holds her tummy tenderly in a few cases, and when she’s with Rose and Bernard, they look at her with a little more tenderness than the others, not just because of the state they can see she’s in, but maybe they know. And while I’m talking about Juliet, the main article on the Yahoo page yesterday was, “Lost favorite dies in finale” or something like that. And as I clicked on the link, I thought, “Who? Who died?” Because, maybe I had a different feed than everyone else, but I never saw Juliet die. I mean, she’s probably bleeding internally something fierce right now, but if Jack is right, and by detonating the bomb none of this will have happened, then she’s as rosy and healthy as the rest of them. And there’s a chance she’s not even on the island; if it was the electromagnetic energy that forced the women to become infertile, then maybe she doesn’t have to come.
• This brings me to a question that’s only formed in my head since Wednesday night. How does Jack/Daniel’s theory work? (If it’s true... which I doubt it is.) Is it that they can erase everything that happens after that moment? And if so, did the release of the electromagnetic energy before Juliet detonated the bomb (if that’s what that white flash was, and not a time bloop) mean they were too late, and regardless of what they do, the Swan will be built to cover the energy and someone will be pushing that button anyway? Daniel was pretty determined to get there BEFORE the energy was released, so I presume that its release means they’re pretty much frakked anyway?
• I’ve always suggested that this show will come down to free will vs. destiny, not good over evil (since no one seems to be clearly all good or clearly all evil). One of my readers, SonshineMusic, suggested that maybe while so many fans are focused on whether Jacob is good or evil, we should instead be looking at whether he represents free will or destiny, and if the other one is the opposite. In the Bible, Jacob believed in free will, and changed his own future by deceiving his father and stealing his brother’s birthright. Esau, on the other hand, believed in destiny, that the birthright was destined to be his and Jacob no more earned it than he did by doing what he did. If the Man in Black is an Esau character, that could be the dichotomy.
• Is it possible that Jacob’s cabin was never actually Jacob’s cabin, but MaybEsau’s? If MaybEsau has been the one in there this whole time, that would be consistent with him methodically conning Locke and Ben over the past few years to lead them to the point where he could take over John’s body.
• Here’s one of my own thoughts: All season long, every time a person dies, Richard Alpert wants the body and is careful to bury people deep. Is that because he’s actually hiding them from MaybEsau, so that he can’t inhabit their body the way he did John Locke? That empty coffin we saw in season 1; is it possible Christian was taken by Richard, who was intending to bury the body so Esau couldn’t get his hands on it, and Esau somehow cut him off at the pass and got the body? (I could speculate better if I knew how the hell this whole body-snatching thing worked!)
• One of my readers pointed out the link between this episode and The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, where the witch finds a loophole and stabs Aslan, but he comes back to life. If Jacob is a Christ figure like Aslan was in that book, that could be an indication that he will return.
• Another reader emailed me off the list to suggest Jacob was evil instead of good (an idea we’d been tossing around in the comments). He said if Jacob was evil, and by stabbing him evil was eradicated, that could be why the show faded to white rather than black. Great theory, although on Lost they tend to trick you, and the people in white tend to be bad.
• That brings me to Jacob meeting the Oceanic 5 and Locke. I mentioned this in my blog and have yet to read a satisfactory theory on it: Why does he touch Kate, Sawyer, Jack, and Locke before they get on Oceanic Flight 815, but he touches Sayid and Hurley after they’ve already been on the flight, returned, and are about to board Ajira Flight 316? If Kate, Sawyer, Jack, and Locke were all touched as a motivation to get them on the plane, what motivated Sayid and Hurley to do it, too? I’m wondering if the touch had nothing to do with actually getting them on the plane, and instead was some sort of protection for them once they’re on the island. Notice all of them are still standing (well, Sayid is just barely so...)
• And here is something I’ve been meaning to mention on my blog, and every time I rewatch the episode I notice it, make a point of mentioning it, and then don’t, so I’ll do it here. We’ve been discussing all season the idea of Smokey and when he first appeared. Some think he was an ancient force on the island, others point out that we never see him in 1977 or before, so maybe he was created post-Incident or post-Purge. When I saw the scene of Juliet being grabbed by the chain and dragged quickly backwards (not to mention hearing that same cranking sound we all know and dread) I couldn’t help but think of Smokey. This was exactly like when Locke was grabbed by Smokey – who loops himself around the victim’s legs or waist and drags them backwards quickly – or the scene where one of Keamy’s men is similarly dragged. And just like when Locke was grabbed in Exodus, Smokey tried yanking him into a hole, but he was saved before it could happen. Juliet is also dragged to a hole, but she’s not so lucky. Could Smokey have arisen out of the Incident? I don’t think it’s a coincidence these two moments look so similar.
• That statue. Earlier in the season I suggested it was Set. Male from the back, flat head. Then someone suggested maybe it was Tawaret, the Egyptian goddess of fertility. Great idea, and it would be perfect considering the fertility issues, but my only concern there is that Tawaret was in the form of a hippo to represent the rounded tummy of pregnant women, and did not have muscular arms like this statue. But she does have a flat head like this one, and is usually represented holding an ankh. After this episode, where we saw the large snout, one of my readers, Benny, suggested Sobek, the crocodile god, who brought fertility also. It’s a male statue with a flat head, and might be the most accurate one yet. But then a reader of mine emailed me this morning to say the ABC site is confirming that statue is indeed Tawaret. Did the production team never actually look at a picture of her? I’m not sure I buy that one. I wonder if it’s possible the statue could be an amalgam of different gods: Tawaret, Sobek, Set, and Anubis, all blended into one.
• One of my readers wondered if the fact Sayid is wearing Horace’s uniform should be a word of warning: After all, Locke will later find the corpse in the pit wearing that uniform. Could it be Sayid’s? Another reader said no, because those were the bodies from the Purge, and if they died in the 90s and Sayid died in 1977, then his body would have been on the bottom. But it did lead me to wonder if there’s some significance to Sayid wearing Horace’s uniform. They could have come up into any house and they came up into that one. Coincidence?

There is SO much more being said and going on over on my blog, but I need to post this and get back to other things (wait... there are things OTHER than Lost?!) I hope to post again in the coming week, but thought this would provide y’all with some fun discussion points. After all, we have EIGHT MONTHS to discuss it! Oh, and someone brought to my attention that someone on this site is organizing a rewatch party. We’ve been organizing the same thing on my blog for the past week or so. Mine will be starting a little later (beginning of July and going through January), but keep watching my site for updates, and we’ll have lots to discuss!

That's the end of the column, but I just wanted to add another squee moment at the bottom here. Yesterday in the afternoon, I checked the Amazon Top 10 TV books, and all of my Finding Lost books (including the season 5 one) were in the top 10! I was thrilled!! Of course, that Star Trek Encyclopedia was keeping me out of the top spot, but that's OK. :)


B.J. said...

I really like the idea that Smokey could have come from the Incident since we never see him pre-77, but my only reservation with that particular theory is that there were hieroglyphs of the monster and Anubis (?) when Ben went under the Temple, which I would assume predate the Incident by a while.

Unknown said...

On Horace's place -

It's Ben's place in the future. And they broke through a wall, which had hieroglyphs. What we saw was the beginning of the secret room behind the secret room.

My theory is that what happened happened, up to and until Juliet blew up the bomb. Everything up to that point has a future corollary - Chang's hand, Razinsky's guilt, Miles and Charlotte leaving the island when they were young, Eloise NOT being there so Dan can be born, etc.

The only inconsistency was Richard claiming to "watch them die." But Richard, as we learned, isn't really above lying.

It's possible the incident released Cerebus, the monster, which is why he has "vents" - the tunnels underneath, the underworld, had been his domain until release.

This bomb would cause the deaths of Razinksy, Chang, and others - all of which would have had futures beyond the incident.

dan said...

I hadn't even thought about smokey and when he "started" to appear.

A quick question, Nikki, with all these blog entries and so many different comments (and no new episodes), is it possible to create a space for future discussions? Maybe there are limits on what can be done on your site (I'm no tech wizard), I was just thinking that so many people having discussions things may become chaotic during the long wait for January.

Robert said...

I think the only reason Tawaret is not pregnant is to represent the situation on the island. If Jacob:Tawaret as MaybEsau:Smokey, then it's clear who reigns supreme on the island in current time and why there might be a fertility problem on the island.

Also, has the show ever stated WHEN the fertility problem actually began? That would help the estimation...

In addition, I read somewhere (the site escapes me now) about two Egyptian Gods who were sent to the underworld based on LOOPHOLES. Technically, I don't think Gods can be sent there, but because of a certain something they did (or someone else did), they managed the impossible.

Will check on the resource now...

Robert said...

Here's the site about loopholes

I'm going to paste the section that indicates that just in case.

"There is an interesting parallel between Osiris, a fertility/agriculture god, and the Greek Persephone, an agriculture goddess. Both end up in the underworld through treachery and both are kept there by "legal loopholes" in the laws of the gods. Persephone remains in the underworld for half a year because she tasted the food of the dead. Osiris remains in the underworld because Ma'at dictates that the dead, even dead gods, may not return to the land of the living."

Benny said...

I still hold out on Sobek (or at least not Tawaret). The ABC recap site has had errors in the past as well.

I'm working on my own post which is inspired by a lot of you comments. It's akin to a discussion monologue if you will, opened to comments, obviously!

It'll be up at

Austin Gorton said...

Interesting about Tawaret. When I first watched the ep and saw the statue, that's who I assumed it was.

But then Benny and the other commenters pointed out its resemblance to Sobek, and now when I look at the picture of it, it clearly seems like Sobek.

So then ABC labels it as Tawaret...

Like the "pop up" tidbits in the expanded episodes, I know that Darlton doesn't really have anything to do with the writing of the ABC recaps, so I'm not buying anything they're selling quite yet.

Benny said...

Yet is probably the important word. I still have an issue with the four toes and headdress of Sobek. But the masculinity of the statue certainly does not convey Taweret.

Benny said...

Post is up!

Has anyone noticed that Jack's vision of Christian are of him in a suit and white tennis shoes (as he was in the coffin) and never talking. H only talked to Vincent. Hurley also see that same silhouette in the cabin.

But everyone else who sees him, he has a personality and talks and is actually wearing casual shirts and boots!

The Shout said...

In one of my posts for 'The Variable' I mentioned that I thought the noises from the construction site at The Orchid were very reminiscent of The Smoke Monster - in particular the sound of moving chains and machinery.

This feeling came over me again as The Incident began and later, as we saw Juliet all alone in that mining shaft, I was half expecting Smokey to appear having been released from depths of The Island. I definately think there's a connection.

Also, The Smoke Monster has been seen to scan characters before seemingly judging them. If there is a connection been it and Jacob's nemesis, could it be doing this to see find a weak spot in there personality that can be exploited eg. like it did with Ben? If they are not suseptable to manipulation, like Mr Eko. or of no further use in the future, they are killed?

Nikki Stafford said...


Duh, of course there were. Geez, wake up, Nikki!! Maybe we could suggest that he was on the island at one time and then buried, so to speak, and the Incident reawakens him?

John Osborne: Fascinating theory, and I never realized that Ben's house was Horace's! Has that been confirmed by the placement of it in Dharmaville? There's the room with the crib at the top of the hallway, and I don't remember that room in Ben's house, but it must have been there if you're saying it's the same house. :)

dan: You know, I need to post something on this separately. I've been thinking for some time of moving this to a proper website. A blog is so limiting. I have ZERO tech experience, and have no idea where one starts when wanting to build a site. I'd want a forum for y'all to just go wild on any topic you'd like, a spot about my books, a blog portion of it still, maybe spots where I could upload video or audio podcasts (hm... maybe audio... not sure if y'all want to be staring at my mug while I talk aimlessly... and yes, I talk the way I write, which is unfortunate).

But I really should post something seeing where to start. I could throw a rock at my comments board and probably hit 20 people who know something about this. But then... rock throwing wouldn't be very nice, now, would it?

Robert: "I think the only reason Tawaret is not pregnant is to represent the situation on the island."

Interesting thought, but it hasn't happened yet. The statue is around in the late 19th century, when women were still having children on the island. Horace's wife Amy has a baby in the 70s; Chang's wife has Miles... so when the statue was built, fertility was alive and well on the island. Something happened since.

Benny: "I still hold out on Sobek (or at least not Tawaret). The ABC recap site has had errors in the past as well."

I think the Sobek theory has more legs (or should I say...feet? nyar nyar) then the Tawaret one.


Interesting!! I've said many times in the past that Smokey only seems to target those with faith, and I would think that's what Esau needs, so it would make sense that it's checking out those people to see if they're worthy.

humanebean said...

Congrats on having all the LOST books in the top 10 on Amazon, Nik! Well deserved attention, if you ask me.

I posted these comments at the tail end of the GINORMOUS number of comments for the episode itself, but wanted to repost them here quickly to see what responses they may generate. (Apologies to myself for plagarising)

*Given the ambiguity of Juliet's status, this will surely come out of left field (my preferred domain). I noticed on second viewing of the episode that Juliet seems to 'wake up' at the bottom of the shaft just seconds after we see Jacob (presumably) die as he is kicked into the fire by Locke.

Pure coincidence? Highly likely but it struck me as interesting given that we have just witnessed Not-Locke presenting as Locke - and immediately thereafter see Locke's lifeless form on the sand outside the crate. Cut to an inert Juliet in the wreckage at the bottom of the shaft as she gasps into consciousness. Have we just seen another death-to-life transition on the Island?

*I was looking at the screen cap of the tapestry on Jacob's wall and was reminded of the Phoenix rising from the ashes/fire. Given the prominence of the fire circle in the room, is it possible that this points to Jacob's 'resurrection' after having been kicked into the fire by Not-Locke?

*I just don't see how ABC can be confirming the statue as Tawaret- the face appears all wrong. I'm in the Sobek faction, myself.

Great googly-moogly! This site has just blown UP this week - keep up the good work, Nik!

Benny said... is a layout of Dharmaville when the Others were living in it. Ben's house is clearly identified, but I don't know whether or not this would be Horace's house.

Looking at some visual markers in the house, it's hard to pin point anything since all houses are similar.

Benny said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Benny said...

Here are two shots from relatively the same angle of both Ben's and Horace's house. That the door is missing could indicate this is not the same house. It could also be that the door was bordered up. one thing I find telling is that Ben moves a bookshelf from the living room to get to the tunnels, where there are stone stairs. Jack and Sayid come up house stairs in the back of the house and walk through the living room to get out.

I think there are just enough dissimilarities to show they are not the same house. Though I thought they were at first!

The Shout said...

Benny: you're comment about Christian got me thinking. What if there are 2 Christians in the same way there are 2 Lockes? When Jack sees him , he is seeing the true spirit version (in much the same way as Hurley sees dead people) conjured up by Jacob but everyone else is seeing the Evil version created from the corpse of Christian by Jacob's nemesis. This would explain why The Others have an issue with dead bodies - they dont want them being used as vessels for evil spirits.

LocoRoco said...

Okay, so now that we know that Jacob was not the one asking Locke for help back in season three and "The Man Behind the Curtain", because he has not been in that cabin for a long time i think there is a great possibility it might have been "Esau". But then... what about Jacobs lists? We know that Ben has never seen Jacob himself, but still being the leader was the only one allowed to visit him. So if "Esau" was the one inhabiting the cabin, does that mean that the lists came from him?? Although Richard knew that Jacob was actually dwelling beneath the statue he does not seem to have shared that with Ben keeping in mind the fact that the latter one was together with Locke and Hurley trying to find the cabin in order for Locke to be able to talk to Jacob.

Benny said...

@The Shout: One thing that gets me (and I mentioned it on my blog) is that there still is a Locke body with a Locke impersonation. In the case of Christian, there is only the the impersonation but we can't find the body. Could the body be Christian in a suit?

If what you say is correct, then could Locke be made undead by Jacob in the same way it did might have done Christian?

But then again, why would false-Christian tell Locke to say 'Hi' to his son if he has no affiliation? The easy answer is to get him to come back? But that would mean that Maybesau wants them to come back, just as Jacob wanted them to come to the island originally!

But why did everyone have to come back? Who's the first one to tell Locke he had to bring his people back? It was not-Locke by proxy of Richard... This is such a tangled tapestry I doubt we'll be able to get much sense until February 2010!

LocoRoco said...

Just a little updating my earlier post a bit: just rewacthed the last minutes of the finale and right before Ben stabs Jacob, he says that Richard was the one bringing the lists. Richard however probably told Ben he was at the cabin, maybe even showed it to him and all, all of it apears to be a big lie since Jacob was not there. So whose side is Richard really on??

Sarah said...

I don't know if this has been said before, but as soon as it was revealed that Locke was dead and MaybEsau (like that name, ha!) was in his form, I started getting flashes of The First from Buffy. The fact that it takes the appearance of dead people, first of all, and then I thought, "The First couldn't hold anything--" which was one of the red herrings that Giles might be the First way back in S7 "--did John touch anything?" And obviously he did. But *then* I thought, "Did he ever appear with any of the other 'manifestations' at the same time??"

I thought Locke might've been in the same place as Christian during 'Dead is Dead' but I looked back and he wasn't. He also wasn't there for the entire time that Smokey was dealing with Ben. I don't know what this means (or if I've even stated it in a clear way--this is why I don't blog Lost, I just read others, ha!) but I thought that was interesting. If this idea is at all applicable, then that could be one clue that Claire is, in fact, alive, since she was seen alongside Christian.

Of course, this is assuming that MaybEsau = Smokey = Christian... which we don't know for certain yet.

Benny said...

@Loco: We still don't know the it wasn't Jacob. There's strong suspicions but I haven't read/seen any definitive proof of it yet. Do you anything suggesting it? Would love to hear it.

@Sarah: That's good watching! But I think when Sun and Frank talk to Christian, it's the same night not-Locke is at the beach talking with Ceasar. I believe most of us were under the impression that Locke/Christian/Smoke Monster are the same entity. But if I'm correct, Christian and the Smoke Monster are on the main island when Locke is on the Hydra island.

It would make sense that the Smoke Monster told Ben to follow Locke if in fact they are the same entity... but I don't know, It think they are definitely related. I'll have to recheck the chronology to confirm or refute my proposition.

TomWill said...

"Dead is dead" but my hope for the real Locke lies in Walt's dream. Walt said he saw Locke on a beach, in a suit and lot's of people wanted to kill him.

Well, Locke's body is on a beach, in a suit with lots of people that should be quite angry with him. (Not-Locke has changed to more appropriate island wear.) BUT Locke would have to be alive for anyone to want to kill him.

Maybe another resurrection? This time for real and as the work of Jacob? But then, will Locke have to talk his way out of the murder of Jacob?

Love your blog

Minna said...

With all this talk of not-Locke and Christian, and who is taking over their bodies... I thought of something:
We've seen an Other funeral. When Colleen (I think that's her name... the woman Sun shot on the boat...) was killed, the Others had a funeral for her, it was like a Viking funeral. They put her body in a boat and lit it on fire.
Why would they do this and not bury her? Then I remembered something else... At one point in a past season, Locke says that nothing stays buried on the island for long.
So my guess is that any dead body on the island is a candidate for 'possession' (in a manner of speaking)
Christian, Locke, Alex, even Yemi... all of them have their dead bodies on the island somewhere.
What does this mean? I'm not sure, really... but it seems like there's rules as to who MaybEsau can 'possess'...

Benny said...

@MinnaL does this mean we could see Henry Gale alive?


One important issue I guess nobody is addressing is that Hurley is the only one from the O6 that was told by Jacob who he was, and Hurley doesnt tell anyone back on the island about this encounter. He´s also carrying the guitar case given by Jacob all over in the 70s like he knows exactly when to open/use it. I think it is related to Charlie, Sun finding the ring makes me believe both things are not a coincidence. Maybe Hurley is more important than we believe in the whole picture.

Benny said...

@Tobias: Jacob actually never says his name to Hurley. He definitely says he was waiting for him, so it's certainly odd, but he never says where he comes from or who he is.

What I did pick up was when Jacob says: "It's you choice Hugo. You don't have to do anything you don't want to." As in free-will!

But I like the pickup of the ring. It'd be nice to see Charlie back, but I believe Sun intends on giving it to Claire.


True Benny my bad! but anyway Hurley was told directly from Jacob to go to back to the island, why? was he more difficult than the rest oof the o6 to convince to go back? and more important what´s inside de guitar case!!
Anyway I think Jacob gather them all, even from their childhood because he knew exactly they will come at so,e point (or precise point) and somehow "balance" in the island.
When Ben was about to kill him, I felt Jacob wasnt even trying to defend himself or at least convince Ben to stop it, he was teasing him, he knew what was coming next, like he knew he has going to die... and when he gets killed he says " They are coming" I think he´s referring to the losties stuck on the 70, that will comeback to fight the new "bad guys". I believe season 6 will be a war, I just cant seem to find out who is with Ben and faux Locke, the other side is clear to me. Free will versus destiny it is then

Rebecca T. said...

Re: Ben/Horace's house. I don't know why, but I really feel like we were told somewhere along the way that Ben's house was Horace's house. I trust Benny (after the whole Kate/Jack/Sawyer house debate earlier this season I'm sure he's researched it well), but I really feel like we heard that somewhere.
Or maybe I just assumed that it was like a "leader's" house and Ben took over Horace's place after they moved to the barracks.

The whole thing with the dead bodies doesn't really make sense to me, so maybe someone could clarify what they are thinking... How could Maybesau be inhabiting Locke's body when we see Locke's body come out of the crate? It's more like he's impersonating him? Or maybe the body has to be available in order for him to inhabit it?

Maybe I don't remember correctly, but I thought that when Ilana and Bram came to the cabin she said he (Jacob) hadn't been there for a long time, so I guess the question is, how long is long. Three years? Thirty years? Three hundred years? :) Okay, not the last one.

Anyway, my point is that it seems that at some point Jacob did live in that cabin. I don't know what that point was, but if he visited Ilana and told her where to go, why would she go to the cabin if the cabin wasn't Jacob's?

Benny said...

@Tobias: I agree that Hurley must feel weird about this guy. He was definitely touching them more than what we saw.

I think Jacob was not defending himself because, as he said to Ben, it was his choice.

@Soneshine: Yeah, there's this lingering feeling that it's the same house, but I just don't know. I'll try to watch more of it. But Ben could still have done some renovations since taking over.

And I agree with you. Taking possession of a body is not quite what is happening here. There are two Locke bodies. Or, could not-Locke actually simply be a manifestation that looks like Locke? It all relates back to the loophole.

And as far as the cabin is concerned, one could think that they were going to show Maybesau the body? They seem scared when they realize the ash circle has been broken. What exactly does it mean to them?

Anonymous said...

Wait- we don't know that Sayied is dead do we?! Please say we don't, I really like him...

Benny said...

We don't. There I said it, but it's also true, we don't know that he's dead.

Rebecca T. said...

Nikki, thanks for the shout out on Doc Arzt. That made my day :)

Also thanks for providing such an opportunity to air crazy thoughts and idea :)

and as to the beginning of the posting on Thursday, they were coming faster than I could read, so I don't blame you for missing some. Pete's sake, I don't know how you keep up with it at all!

And sorry? for the uber long posts, too. I tried to cut them, but soooo many things this episode. I was going to say next time I'll break it up more, but then I realized that next time will be so far away :( Wah!

Sarah said...

Yes, I definitely agree that it's not body possession that's going on here--it's more like the ability to take the form of a dead body. And really insightful stuff about the burial practices of people on the island... I hadn't picked up on that. Also that Yemi's body was on the island, unburied--good call back to S2!

Now the one thing I'm wondering is about the manifestations of Walt on the island. Does that only have to do with his power, or his unexplainable connection to Locke, or is there some way to connect this to the other manifestations.

Also, if we're all assuming correctly that Not!Locke = Smokey, why was he so surprised when Ben said that Alex had told him to follow Locke as the leader? Or was he just surprised because Ben *intended* to honor his agreement?

Minna said...

yeah... that's what I meant... I couldn't find the right word to use, but it's definatley not possession. I was just making the point that as long as there is a body (and I don't think buried/not buried has anything to do with it... since the Others seem to always burn their dead) then MaybEsau can impersonate him/her.

And yes... technically, if the writers want to bring him back, Henry Gale could make an appearance as a manifestation of MaybEsau. But what higher purpose would that serve?

Benny said...

Haha! The only purpose a Henry Gale version would serve is to actually see the Henry Gale body on the island. Nothing more.

Anonymous said...

Hi, what really interested me is that "maybe Esau" is the smokemonster - when Ben first summoned him with the giant plug, he was waiting for him tells sun to go inside , and then Locke emerges from the trees- when Ben is under the temple , and slips into the hole - new Locke goes off, and only returns after the smoke monster goes. When he manifests as Bens daughter , she tells him to follow John Locke - but he must know he is not him - his judgments are old testament in the extreme, and are the really about the island , or rather if the person promoted maybe Esau's cause????


Anonymous said...



Benny said...

@Christine: Are we really sure that the new Locke and the smoke monster are the same entity? I've said it before but, the night Sun and Frank arrive to the main island and hear the monster in the trees, 'Locke' is on the beach talking to Ceasar.

Anonymous said...

true , but if jacob and " new locke" play by the same rules , then Jacob has used stand in's before- Claire and Christian - maybe he has smoke monster babies -matches


Rebecca T. said...

Well, I just stayed up way later than I meant to thinking about ash rings and cabins and Jacobs and mythology. I came up with some very interesting things when doing some internet research on the phoenix. In connection with Jacob. It's rather long, so if anyone wants to take a look and let me know what you think, please pop over to my blog:
and take a gander :)

Now hopefully to get some sleep before work in the morning. ugh :(

Anonymous said...


Thanks to everyone for all their interesting posts.

Here’s something else to add to the mix of trying to understand the relationship of MaybEsau and Not-Locke. Not-Locke does not have MaybEsau’s memories (at least not all of them) though he seems to have some of his intentions. When Not-Locke arrives at the foot (what remains of the statue), he clearly has no idea how this might relate to Jacob. He has to rely on Richard to open the entrance. But if not-Locke is just some sort of emulation of Locke by MaybEsau, he should have MaybEsau’s memories and thus should know exactly why they are at the foot/statue (he’s been there before long ago and probably many more times). Yet not-Locke seems to know that Richard has to tell real Locke (who is time-traveling) that he must leave the island, bring the 06 back, and undergo death. This seems clearly to be MaybEsau’s intention, not at all derived from what might remain of real-Locke's mind. Throughout the finale not-Locke seems to know things that perhaps only real Locke would know (especially his history with Ben), but he also has a bravado that seems infused from MaybEsau. So does this emulation involve a mix of the “dead” person and MaybEsau? If so, could the “dead” person reawaken and struggle for control over the “body” that is the emulation?

On another issue, I missed that Juliet seems to indicate some knowledge that she is pregnant, but I agree this might well be true. I also agree with Nikki that she is not yet shown to be dead. The closest parallel to what she did by detonating the bomb is what Desmond did by turning the failsafe key. Neither Desmond nor anyone else died after that event. Maybe Juliet will be still alive with Desmond-like powers; yet able to live and have her child in whatever time they land in because of the Incident + bomb (if they do land in a different time).

If we are to seriously entertain the theory that MaybEsau is closely related (even identical) to the Smoke-monster, then we need to re-examine all the actions of the smoke monster (there have been a lot of them) and ask why MaybEsau would want to do those things. Is there a consistent motivation to what the Smoke-monster does? Can these be related to MaybEsau’s theories and goals? The fact that the Smoke-monster can be summoned (is that draining water that Ben uses to summon him some sort of symbolic opposite of Jacob’s ever-burning fire?) suggests that he does not (always) act independently.

Finally, on fate/free will: While Jacob keeps emphasizing the necessity of choice to some of those he visits and to Ben, this seems to be in the service of keeping people on the trajectory he wants them to take (even Ben’s killing of himself). Whereas MaybEsau seems to believe in something like the inevitability of human failure (thus, Fate), he actually exercises free will in finding a way to break the rules and find a loophole. (What an effort it was to set Ben up for this and to lure Locke to do all that MaybEsau needs him to do!) Though Jacob seems to expect this attempt (even back there in full-statue times) and seems to have a larger plan that will be revealed in Season 6, thus again making him a representative of the side of Destiny, or at least subverting or subsuming MaybEsau’s effort at free will. (So just as good/evil do not seem black and white; so too fate/free will do not seem to be so either.)


Hisham Fahmy said...

Re: Walt's dream.
I believe the dream came true already in "Dead Is Dead." Yes, Walt didn't dream of the real Locke, but he was wearing a suit, and Caesar and the two other men were intending to hurt him when he insisted on taking the canoe to the main Island.

A question, though: How did the "Black Shirt" get possession of all of Locke's memories and manners? Because he was a typical Locke all the time.

But anyway I believe I got my answer to the "viper eating its own tail" question that The Shout helped me clarify: Black Shirt wanted to make sure that Locke died so that he could take his form and scare Ben to hell by convincing him that Locke was resurrected, and then use his grief and anger to kill Jacob. That was his loophole, and it was a very long con indeed.

Nikki Stafford said...

humanebean: Of all your insightful and wonderful comments, I'm going to pull out the most inane (this is where my head it at on a Saturday morning!):
"Great googly-moogly!"

Is this a sign that you are a fan of Maggie and the Ferocious Beast?!

Nikki Stafford said...


You bring up an excellent point, and one that's been eating at me since the episode. We had the discussion the week before about Richard (and it was pretty unanimous that everyone WANTED Richard to be the good guy!) but what is Richard's hand in all of this? Is he also some master manipulator? Jacob made him his way, he says... is that a good or a bad thing? Does he dislike Jacob or revere him?

The Shout said...

Hisham: I agree that Not-Locke needed to put Locke on the path which would eventually lead to his death, as part of his long con, which raises another question - why did he tell Locke to bring Jack and the others back?
When Jacob said 'they're coming', I thought that he meant the Losties, but why would Not-Locke bring them back to The Island if they are a potential threat.
One answer could be that Jacob's nemesis isnt aware they are a threat and only tells Locke to bring them back as this is the only reason Locke would have to leave The Island.
Also, how far back does the long con go? My first thought is it started when Ben brought Locke to the cabin but if there is a link to The Smoke Monster it could have been as far back as Locke's first encounter with it in season 1.

Nikki Stafford said...


I've always believed Hurley is more important in the bigger picture, simply because of his link with the numbers. That's a solid link to the island before he even got there, which is more than anyone else has had.

But the thought that Charlie might actually come back has me SO excited. Oh, please Dominic, please return in season 6. I mean, other than Chuck and the other occasional guest appearance, you haven't been gracing my TV screen and I miss you!

I absolutely believe that guitar case has something to do with Charlie, and that Hurley looked inside it and realized that. It's why he protects it so much, and why it never leaves his side.

humanebean said...

Hah! No, I'm sorry to say I was unfamiliar with Maggie and the Ferocious Beast until you mentioned it - I got the phrase from some terrible TV commercial a few years back where Grandpa is trying to change a baby's diaper. I just jumped over to the site, though and love the music for Maggie!

As for Jacob/The Man in Black, I think we've been given a stark contrast in the means they each use to achieve their desired ends. For ONCE I'm going to take something at face value on LOST (dangerous, I know) and accept that Jacob visited each of the Losties we've seen, showing them empathy and compassion while touching them in some way that sets them on a path towards the Island. The one exception here might be Jacob's visit to Ilana in the hospital - he is all in black here and wearing GLOVES (odd for someone who needs to 'touch' people to affect them). Somehow, I feel this is significant.

Meanwhile, as we see from Not-Locke's manipulation of Ben, The Man in Black's method is to use people for his own purposes, twisting them with their guilt, ambition and greed to serve his plans. He found his loophole, alright - and he believes that Jacob has "no idea what (he's) gone through" to exploit it.

Jacob, meanwhile, offers individuals choice. Both he and The Man in Black have each been affecting people and events to see their belief system validated. The fear on the face of Not-Locke when Jacob tells him that "they're coming" indicates that he was unaware of/didn't believe that Jacob's attempts to change the outcome could succeed.

If The Man in Black knows that Jack, Sawyer et al wound up back in 1977, perhaps he believed that the Incident would kill them and prevent them from further affecting the outcome of his plans. But, they were given the choice to let the Incident play out or act in an effort to change things. Next season, I think we will see that Faraday will be proven right - the 1977 Lostaways WERE the variables - and their choices at the time will bring them back to the present with a final opportunity to prove Jacob right ... and The Man in Black wrong.

Can't go wrong in quoting Shakespeare - this time from JULIUS CAESAR: "The fault... lies not in our stars but in ourselves". If each of them can overcome their selfish need to make decisions based on their own flawed perspective (Hello, Jack ... and everybody else) and act for the Greater Good, perhaps they will ensure a different outcome this time.

Ya think?

Michael (holland) said...

couldn't help thinking of Jack's tattoo's (maybe they have some significance after all): he walks among us, but he is not one of us.

It certainly relates to Jacob, or maybe the ones touched by Jacob.

E.B. said...

Oh, you all have so many interesting thoughts! I love this blog!

I am still puzzled by what Frank L. could be a candidate for??!! Was he with Ilana and her group in that last scene on the beach with Locke's body?

I thought the knife pinning the cloth picture in Jacob's cabin was the machete Locke used in earlier seasons.

Benny said...

@E.B.: The knife is slightly different, but that would certainly be a strong connection.
What I figured is that it's the same as Jacob's knife from the beginning: same handle form, same blade shape.

humanebean said...

@E.B. - you are not alone in pondering the significance of Ilana & Bram's discussion re: Frank as a "candidate". While we don't yet know just who this new group is, or where they originated, it does seem that they are working in conjunction with Jacob or at least in line with his motivations.

As I wonder about this, I think back to the schism that must have occurred within the group of Hostiles/Others on the Island between 1977 and the time our Lostaways crash landed in 2004. We know that the women and children of the Dharma Initiative were evacuated just prior to the Incident - and so it is possible that our new Shadow of the Statuettes™ came from these ranks.

But when Ellie departed the Island to raise Daniel, the remainder of the Others were led (perhaps less than willingly) by Charles, at least until he is deposed/tricked into leaving by Ben. Whatever led to the Purge, it's clear that some Others declined to move into Dharmaville and be led by Ben.

My thinking is that there was a group loyal to the Island, following Richard (who has taken at least intermittent leadership before, as we saw in 1954) who continued to stay apart from Ben's little social experiment. Ben has previously made reference to recruiting elements of his group (and we saw Ethan and Richard off-island in pursuit of Juliet).

Yet, when the events that culminated in Ben's turning the wheel occurred, we saw Locke join Richard and a ragtag band of followers in the jungle - a group that didn't look anything like the one living with Ben in 'New Otherton'. Seems like there had once again been ANOTHER group of 'Others' living in the jungle. We once speculated that they were perhaps just like Richard himself - ageless and 'one with the Island'. Still possible, I suppose...

I don't know what happened to Ilana to leave her bandaged and bedridden in that foreign hospital before she was visited there by Jacob. (anyone recongnize the accent of her nurse?) I think it's possible that she and Bram and a select group of 'other Others' had been off-island for a bit, working at cross-purposes to those who were being manipulated by The Man in Black (Hello, Mr. Widmore) ... planning for the day when The War would come - and readying themselves to fight when it did.

Now, they are back - and it's possible that they will look to recruit those willing to fight alongside them. Frank is 'pure of heart' - willing to help others, selfless when the opportunity arises, loyal ... just the sort of characteristics that might make him an Ideal Candidate to join our Shadow of the Statuettes™.

We assume that Jacob is, of course, that which lies 'in the shadow of the statue' - 'he who would save us all'. What if he isn't? It's a cool secret code, mind you .... but Bram and Ilana marched to the CABIN to see Jacob, expecting to find him there. When did Jacob either escape the cabin (if the ring of ash was keeping him IN) or flee the cabin (if the ash was keeping something/Smokey/Man in Black OUT)? When did Jacob take up residence/return to the statue base? Does something ELSE lie "in the shadow of the statue"?

One of the many, many things I loved about the writing of the season finale is the circular nature of the opening/closing scenes. The Man in Black tells Jacob that he's "going to find a loophole". Jacob replies that when he does, "I'll be right here". Sure enough, when Not-Locke finds his loophole, that's exactly where Jacob is to be found .... right there at the base of the statue where The Man in Black had left him in the opening scene.

Man, these guys are good.

Anonymous said...

Thinking about Jacob and his visits, I looked back into old Test. and before Jacob died he blessed all his children - except RueBEN - he effectively disinherits him. Sounds like the death scence under the foot. Whats really interesting is if you take this idea further of the people on the island being jacob decendants - I have long been a fan of the star wars connection where we discover Kate and Jack are siblings - bit icky , but Jacobs visits off island and the touching of every one does suggest a kind of blessing.

Anonymous said...

@humanebean--re Ilana and the "other Others". Have a hunch that Jacob's visit to bandaged Ilana might be the episode's only FF to season six: Jacob exiled but alive, Ilana wounded early in The War.

E.B. said...

@ Humanbean about "Other Others" (henceforth called OOthers ) - I think you are correct about there being a group of oothers that we don't know about or have not been introduced to, and I mean a larger group, apart from the "extra" others who live in Dharmaville. In fact, didn't Ben refer to them at some point as "my other people at the temple?" Which would make one think they were aligned with him, but then again maybe they're not necessarily his allies, just that he's aware of them and where they are.

RE: JulietteI just get this feeling that she knows much more about things than she is letting on. Weather or not that is intentional due to her being quiet, mopey and resigned to the fact that her and Sawyer's romance has ended, or her personal knowledge that she is pregnant, I'm not sure. I was actually thinking she knew about some aspect of what was going down, either from her time as an other, or perhaps that there is more to her back story (time travel?) and island history to be revealed.

I must be totally off because I thought her actions and "changing her mind" had to do with these kinds of other factors - not necessarily the romance with Sawyer and his "looks" at Kate.

RE: Frank LapidusThis is probably a stupid observation, but some of you have speculated as to the clothing that the dead Christian Shepherd is wearing in his appearances so I'll toss out some thoughts I had. Some have noted that sometimes Christian is in his burial suit, white sneakers, and sometimes not. So along those lines Frank is wearing clothing similar to the deceased Locke's body, more formal clothing than the rest of the islanders. Is he a candidate because of that, somehow? Was some sort of shape shifting ritual performed on another body to make it appear as Locke's, and then funeral clothes were necessary to pull it off? And what if the Locke in the foot-temple with Jacob & Ben really is the real Locke and the body in the box is the false one?

OK, I guess that is pretty out there, but I'm throwing it in the mix. :)

RE: Jacob eating a Red HerringI really thought it was some form of snapper. Anyone else have any more speculation about that? When I saw him catching and eating it I thought the writers were framing him as a Messiah-figure, since Jesus has several notable fish stories related to Him...

Rebecca T. said...

@humanebean: Shadow of the Statuettes™.

Okay, all I can think when I see this is that it sounds like a really lame band name from like the 60's or something :)

Also, I like the idea of the Oothers (this would make a great band name, too, by the way ;)
And that would be that 3rd party that I've often wondered about.

@E.B.: about Juliette. Ever since she joined the Losties, you always get the feeling that she know way more than she is telling anybody. I don't know if that is true anymore with the time travel, but she gives that Mona Lisa knowing smile so often that I always wonder what is going on in her head.

Also, in regards to her possibly being pregnant, I kind of wonder if that isn't one of the things that has been driving her through this whole period with the other Losties appearing. If she is pregnant now, then she probably would have known it for a little while. That adds a whole other layer to the scene where Amy asks when she and Jim are going to have one. It's been a very short period of time (right?) so maybe she knew then and something about this pregnancy is freaking her out.

Of course, all of this could be a mute point if Juliet has actually died or isn't pregnant. I just think it's interesting to contemplate.

Rebecca T. said...

Something I was thinking about Richard. Last week in "Follow the Leader" a number of us commented on how Richard seemed to be rapidly losing faith in Locke. Perhaps he began to suspect that Locke wasn't really Locke at all. Richard is the one that comments that Locke seems different. Also, if the some of the current thoughts on the availability of a body are accurate, then it would explain why he was so shaken when Ben said he killed Locke.

Maybe Richard realized that if Locke had died, then MaybEsau would have had the perfect candidate to infiltrate the Others and get to Jacob. Maybe that's why Richard is so hesitant to take Locke to see Jacob.

Batcabbage said...

@Sonshine: I think your thoughts on Richard are dead on. It would certainly make sense considering his doubts about Zombie-Locke, and his reaction to Ben's murder of Locke. Thinking about it now, Richard would probably know more than anyone what Ben is capable of, and his reaction is perfect if, as you say, we take the 'Maybesau can possess dead bodies' position. And most of all, if we take your view on Richard as how it happened, it certainly restores my faith in Richard as a goodie!

A quick question: has anyone been able to recognise what language Richard replied in when asked what lay in the shadow of the statue? A translation, even? I haven't seen it in the comments, or if it's there, I've missed it (there are a whole hell of a lot now, yay!). How the Jacobites (what I'm calling Ilana, Bram, et al) fit in (knowing that Jacob recruited Ilana, of course) was one of the aspects that intrigued me the most about the finale. Well, apart from the nuke, Ben stabbing Jacob, Juliet, and Maybesau, of course.

Benny said...

@Batcabbage: It's Latin for "
He who will protect/save us all".

Batcabbage said...

@Benny: Ah, thanks for that. Must have missed it in all the comments. Cheers.

Benny said...

It's a maze in there that's for sure!

Hisham Fahmy said...

humanebean: The language they were using at the hospital was Russian. A Russian-speaking friend confirmed it.

humanebean said...

Thanks, Hisham! Wonder if there's any connection here to Sayid's last kill for Ben in "He's Our You"? I believe that was in Moscow.

Anonymous said...

So if the focus is on burying bodies deep so as not to be taken over from maybesau , could it also be to prevent the smoke monster representing them - he was Yemi and Yemi wasnt buried, and he was Bens daughter - who was only buried in a shallow grave ?


Missing Georgia said...

In the episode when Richard visits Locke as a young boy, Locke picks the knife and Richard is clearly not pleased. I think this was an indication that Locke was going to be used/possessed by MaybeEasau and Richard saw this. It is probably why Richard was skeptical of Locke when he reappeared on the island after the Ajira crash. Does anyone else think this as well?

Blam said...

I just realized that Richard's line "Jacob made me this way" has another interpretation beyond "Jacob affected me so that I never age," which is "Jacob created me to be like this." Woo! I'm sure someone else has mentioned it, if not here than at one of the gazillions of Lost-hotspots that I don't read, but I haven't even caught up with Doc Jensen's analysis yet 'cause there's so much to read here!

Blam said...

I gotta say that Anonymous Bill has me rethinking my simple equation that Esau is Smokey is the apparitions of Locke, Christian, Yemi, et al. (just about everyone but Walt, since he was living and we know he has some kind of psychic abilities that manifest his needs).

We're pretty sure that Fake Locke in the temple is Esau, because he speaks to Jacob as if he is -- although this could just be shorthand, with a continuation of the scene next season clarifying that Esau is speaking "through" this manifestation rather than actually being one and the same as it.

If Smokey is not Esau, that would explain Benny's issue with Smokey being on the main Island while Fake Locke is on the other beach with Ilana. Or if Smokey is Esau but the apparitions are just creations through which Esau/Smokey can act and speak, then we have another explanation for that, as well as perhaps for Claire, whom we've seen alongside Christian.

The fact that these creations might not really understand what they are until the right moment would also explain the strange post-possible-death behavior of Claire. I first thought she survived the house in New Otherton collapsing around her; then I thought she was dead, even if she didn't realize it until she met Christian in the woods that night; and most recently I thought she was indeed alive but being suckered by what looked like Christian but we knew was Smokey, which is problematic since we've seen lots more of Christian than we have of her and if she's still alive she'd have to be somewhere when not accompanying him. Her doppelganger could have been manifested or "activated" by Smokey right after Claire's death but not immediately aware of what she was; the same could have been true with Fake Locke, meaning that when we first see him on the beach eating that mango he really thinks he's Locke returned and feeling better than ever, just like we did, instead of being Esau relishing his new form and what he was about to accomplish.

Oddly enough, these musings based on Bill's thoughts tie into an idea from left field that I posted in the comments section of Nikki's original recap:

(1) Horace built the cabin that Jacob or Esau uses, his apparition told Locke. (2) We haven't seen Smokey in '70s Dharma time. (3) But the sonic fence exists, and it's not to keep Richard out, so in addition to fending off wild animals (or slaughtering them, really, if they haven't seen or intuited what it does) it's probably there to keep Smokey out.

Could Esau/Smokey be trapped in Horace's body somehow? Maybe he was put there by Jacob, and every once in a while Horace -- who could be a real person or just an invented shell with no memory of his real identity -- is overwhelmed by aspects of his/Esau/Smokey's true nature, leading to drunken episodes like the one we saw in "LaFleur". All of which would make the conversation between Richard and Horace that we only saw from a distance potentially more fraught with intrigue, especially if, say, Richard knew what Horace was and Horace didn't.

What I should add to the original post is that this idea supports the theory that the body with Horace's jumpsuit in the mass Dharma grave is Sayid's. I don't think it's Sayid's myself -- heck, I'm not sure how much of my own theory above I really believe; I'm just messing around -- but if it's Horace's then it was dumped there before the Smokey-as-Horace that we see walking around Dharmaville. How many other Dharma residents, given the number of bodies in that grave with the Horace-jumpsuited skeleton, could therefore also be Smokey/Esau-created replacements, unbeknownst to Chang and Radzinsky and the other still-living?

Blam said...

minna: I thought of something: We've seen an Other funeral. When Colleen (I think that's her name... the woman Sun shot on the boat...) was killed, the Others had a funeral for her, it was like a Viking funeral. They put her body in a boat and lit it on fire. Why would they do this and not bury her? Then I remembered something else... At one point in a past season, Locke says that nothing stays buried on the island for long. So my guess is that any dead body on the island is a candidate for 'possession' (in a manner of speaking)

Very nice!


First: As I replied earlier, I don't think the flashbacks of Jacob's interactions necessarily covered everyone he met who would end up on the Oceanic flight. Yet conversely I also doubt that everyone who was on 815 was visited by Jacob; Hurley and Sayid could've been incidental to Jacob's plans at first, just innocent bystanders (or byflyers) who survived the crash where other incidentals didn't, and once they left the Island alongside the marked Jack and Kate they not only had to be convinced to return by Locke or Jack or Eloise or Jacob but perhaps marked by him, too, now that they would be necessary to Jacob's plans. I think I was both more clear and more succinct the first time I brought it up, but I'm tired now.

Second: What if instead of blessing (or cursing) them, or marking them, Jacob's touch was to infuse each of the castaways-to-be with part of himself, knowing that either he would need that energy later or the Island would need them to tap into the power once he's gone? He could also have been establishing a link, a sort of psychic tether, so that Jacob or the Island could call them to him when needed, like at the end of the finale.


That's a likely and intriguing scenario. And I love the name. Does that make the pirates who crashed on the Island the Black Rockettes?

humanebean: Does something ELSE lie "in the shadow of the statue"?

As of Ilana dumping it out of the cargo bin, Locke's body...

Blam said...

One more repost from the other, older thread earlier tonight before I knock off, so all the brilliant minds following here can chime in:

I've been musing since shortly after that white flash on a progression in scale or scope that we've seen from season to season.   

Season One had our castaways mostly on the beach and then the caves, with some additional exploration of the Island, plus of course the flashbacks.   

The Season One finale took us down the Hatch, a.k.a. Dharma's Swan Station, which was a major expansion of setting for Season Two, as was the addition of the Tailies and meeting actual Others. Season Two ended with the EM explosion and our first present-time glimpse of life off the Island when Penny was notified of the blip.   

Season Three spent considerable time -- to many viewers' and even producers' chagrin -- with the Others on the next island over from The Island. Its finale's expansion of scope, like "down the Hatch" in One and "off the Island" in Two, was that what we thought was a flashback was in fact a flashforward.   

Season Four introduced us to life off the Island after the Oceanic Six's return to the world, and began the mirroring of the seasons, with the finale both echoing the previous season's finale and finally showing us how the castaways whom we'd seen off the Island in flashforwards actually left. Plus we were introduced to the Frozen Donkey Wheel chamber.  

After Season One's exploration of the Island, Season's Two's expansion into the Hatch and discovery of other Dharma Stations, Season Three's introduction of the companion Island, and Season Four's toggling between the Island and not only what had happened in our castaways' lives in the outer world but what would happen, Season Five went one better and introduced time travel. We'd previously only jumped through time narratively through flashbacks and flashforwards, but now our castaways weren't just wandering through the three dimensions of length, width, and height or depth (the former two on the Island's surface, the latter via the plane crash and Hatch), they were wandering through the fourth dimension, time.  

Season Six is of course uncharted territory, as it hasn't even begun filming yet, but if the previous seasons are any indication, then elements of the Season Five finale may point the way. The introduction of corporeal Jacob was one big reveal, but it's the white flash in the very last moments that's placed where the look down to the Hatch, the Arctic outpost of Penny's, the "We've got to go back to the Island!" stunner, and Locke in the coffin were, but frustratingly it gave us the least information -- a cause with no inkling of the effect. The only place to go dimensionally after time travel is the multiverse of alternate realities, i.e., jumping not just through time periods but through different potential existences, which is something we've heard mentioned on Fringe. Does this mean that the flash, whether or not it was caused by the detonation of the plutonium core, has reset history in some way, and that we might see two or more different timelines play out at once, separated by the membrane of quantum whatever, the way we toggled between time periods this year?

Heck if I know, but I'm looking forward to the answer.

Rebecca T. said...

@Blam: Does that make the pirates who crashed on the Island the Black Rockettes?

::groan:: :D

humanebean said...

An intriguing and excellent hypothesis, Blam. The notion of multiverses might also point to the answer for another question that still lingers ... what are the whispers? Aside from Ben's instructions to young Danielle that she should "run the other way" if she hears them .... we have not had any reference to them in quite some time.

I love the idea that they are some sort of crossover between dimensions. Hey, it's about as nuts as anything ELSE we're coming up with.

Missing Georgia said...

In regards to my earlier post: I think Richard knew the knife was maybesau's when he came to test Locke as a boy. It is especially important now that we see that Jacob was stabbed by Ben with the knife.

humanebean said...

Oh, and Blam - nearly snorted coffee through my nose when I read "Black Rockettes"! Hoot!

Hisham Fahmy said...

Is it safe to assume that Locke was always chosen by Maybeasu to find his loophole?
We seem to have forgotten the drawing of Smokey that Locke did as a child. Does this suggest something?

Rebecca T. said...

@Blam: multiverse hypothsis.

Other than making my brain hurt, I think it is a very interesting and plausible suggestion.

I had never thought about the expanding scope of the show over the seasons in that way and you're right, it does grow ever wider in dimension.

If that is true, then that would mean that we could see virtually anyone next season, because someone who died in this reality might still be alive in another one.

My only hesitancy is that it would open things up to such an extent that they wouldn't be able to wrap up the show in only 17 episodes.

@humanebean: At the beginning of this season I assumed that the whispers were displaced in time, but the idea of them being from other dimensions is interesting, too.

I wonder if there are certain places on the Island where the "membranes" are thin, and those are the places you can hear the whispers. That could also be why Rousseau is told to run from them. Maybe the Others also stay away from those areas, because they are unstable.

Could there be portals on the Island to these other dimensions and that is one reason why so many people want to find it, not only to control their own reality, but to cross over into others? (This is sounding very Chronicles of Narnia-ish)

So (and this is just me thinking out loud? with my fingers? Whatever) maybe the flashes from earlier this season weren't just to other times, but to other dimensions?

@Hisham: Ahh! I had forgotten about the drawing of Smokey by Locke as a child. We just watched that episode not long ago, too and I commented on it then. It was definitely odd and Richard definitely seemed to attach some importance to it. Maybe they'll refer back to it next season when they explain the whole Not-Locke thing.

Missing Georgia said...

Hisham: good catch on the smokey drawing from child Locke. I have thought about that scene for some time now. Richard didn't seem alarmed about the Smoke monster drawing, but he did seem upset by the pick of the knife. Maybe Richard was not only sent to see who would be the next leader, but maybe to try to determine who would be the loophole that maybesau would use. That was why it was so important that Richard see the body.It would also seem to explain why Richard had such an interest in Locke. We always assumed that it was because Locke was going to be the next leader, but maybe Richard always knew he was going to be used by maybesau and was keeping him close to monitor his movements for Jacob.

E.B. said...

I have a question maybe some of you can address:

Why was it not necessary for Walt or Aaron to be back on the island? I can see Sun & Jin's child not "needing" to return. I suppose Walt wasn't there right when the Oceanic 6 left, so he needn't be there to return. But Locke's body had to be brought back, and even Frank who left with them, ended up back with them. So, I'm wondering why all those (even Desmond not that I think about it), didn't have to be brought back?

Also @ SonShine's theory of thin time or dimensional membranes being related to the whispers is fascinating. In earlier seasons, the whispers are associated with the Others and/or bad things happening. What if the others are also wary of them?

Missing Georgia said...

@ E.B. - Sonshine's theory comes from FRINGE, which is a great show. The series finale introduced alternate realities and how to find the window to other dimensions. The show talked about there being thinner membranes in specific areas where it is possible to crossover. I am glad that she picked up on that as well as the alternate dimensions based on decisions. I had the same reaction that she did because I instantly thought of LOST when they were introducing those theories. I think the Others may also be scared of the whispers as well and that they are not the cause of them.

Rebecca T. said...

@Missing Georgia: Sonshine's theory comes from FRINGE, which is a great show.You want to know something funny - I haven't watched a single episode of Fringe. HAHAHA! Don't I feel smart now.

Also, think I need to watch it :)

Missing Georgia said...

@Sonshine - I am totally in awe of you now. You certainly are brilliant! I think @poggy posted a comment on another post in regards to FRINGE and I mixed up the two of you. I stand corrected :) I also highly recommend FRINGE. There are some great theories that really tie into LOST.

Rebecca T. said...

@E.B. Why was it not necessary for Walt or Aaron to be back on the island?

You know, I understand Walt, but Aaron does have me puzzled. All the rest had to come back and I really thought they were going to do something with the whole "he has to be raised by Claire" thing.

Honestly, I think it was a plot device to keep the baby off the Island, because it would be really hard logisitcally to deal with a 3 year old while everyone is running around shooting people, blowing up hatches and flirting with old flames.

Hopefully Aaron is something that is addressed big time next season, because he has been built up as so special and important since the first season.

Benny said...

@E.B.: we don't actually know that they weren't supposed to come back. Eloise says all of those who left have to go back. Christian also says it MUST be all of them. Locke perhaps is only thinking of the adults who originally were on the flight, not thinking that Desmond and Aaron should also come back. He did go see Walt but thought it un-necessary to put him through this.

But remember that the reason some landed in 1977 and others in 2007 is that the flight conditions were not identical. Maybe these people were actually missing and that was a reason.

E.B. said...

Benny said "But remember that the reason some landed in 1977 and others in 2007 is that the flight conditions were not identical. Maybe these people were actually missing and that was a reason."And if that is the case, then Walt, Aaron, and Desmond would have to return with them.

theSwan said...

I'm totally down to join the rewatch party...PLEASE let me know when it starts!! I rewatch episodes all the time, more than my boyfriend! I love it, anyway, I know everyone else does too. SO EXCITED!

Rebecca T. said...

@Benny: But remember that the reason some landed in 1977 and others in 2007 is that the flight conditions were not identical.Excuse me for being nitpicky, but was it ever confirmed that this was the reason they ended up in different places? I was under the impression that the real reason hadn't been revealed yet. This was one of many theories that was floated, but there were others, including one saying the Island or some other force (Jacob? MaybEsau?) wanted them in different places for different reasons

Benny said...

@Sonshine: hmmm... come to think of it, maybe it wasn't mentioned on the show itself. I think it was either a podcast/the recap.

Can't be sure. But you might be right about it not being on the show itself. I guess I'm just blending anything I know from various sources.

The Shout said...


Eloise told Jack that if conditions on the flight were not exactly the same as before, the results would be unpredictable. Other than that, no reason why specific people ended up in the past / present has been given.

Benny said...

@The Shout: I checked and in the recap prior to the finale, Damon and Carleton say that was the cause. Of course we can't really consider it canon unless it's confirmed on the show. And if not, we're just left to speculating/accepting recaps.

Here's what they say:
Carleton: "Eloise Hawking has said that you have to replicate the circumstances of 815 exactly. They were not able to do that."

Damon: "Which triggers some of them to move to 1977."

The Shout said...

Got a few (more!) questions I'd like to throw into the mix:

It now seems that only Richard, and not Ben, has been communicating with Jacob, so did he know that Ben had never seen Jacob? I assume Richard knew Jacob was living in the statue and not in the cabin so did he know Ben was visiting the cabin?

I've always assumed that Ben was chosen as leader of The Others because of his ability to see his dead mother and (who we thought was) Jacob in the cabin and that only a 'chosen one' could do this. If Ben has been lying the whole time about seeing Jacob, why didnt Richard call him on it?

Also, we've seen Whitmore claim to be carrying out Jacob's orders, so was he in communication with Jacob or have his instructions always come through Richard?

If Jacob's orders are all coming through Richard, why do The Others even need Ben or Locke or whoever as a leader?

Benny said...

@The Shout: I can answer the last question (and maybe second last).

Ben claims that Jacob is the leader of the island while there is a leader of the Others. So Jacob may have specific orders as to what exactly there is to do, but in the general scheme of things, the leader of the Others will give orders to the group as to what to do, how to carry out the greater orders and how to live. Distribution of tasks.

One should also figure that the Others have to live a certain way in between Jacob's orders, this is where the Leader of the Others comes in. It may be understood that the leader also guides/leads by what he understands Jacob's will to be, such as Widmore Ben thought themselves.

It seems the terms "for the Island" and "for Jacob" are interchangeable, but not necessarily that Jacob is the island per se, nor a a manifestation of it.

The Shout said...

Benny: That makes sense, plus we still dont know if The Others are The Island's original inhabitants or descendants of previous castaways .

Following on from that, each leader of The Others pushes them in different direction according to their personal idealogy. For example, Ben's use of the DHARMA facilities and his attempts to prevent the pregancy problems on The Island. I get the feeling that 'Jacob told me do it' has been used on more than occassion to add weight to their wishes.

Benny said...

The Shout: Most def.

Remember in "Man Behind the Curtain" when Ben comes back from the cabin and shooting Locke, he tells his group that Jacob has changed the plan and some stuff. But since we know Ben never heard Jacob, we know it to be a lie, but it appears that everyone else accepts it. Just mentioning Jacob, when people believe you are in touch with him, certainly carries weight.

Elle said...

I'm a little late on this - sorry!

@ Blam's Season Summaries: Nice season summaries! I love the Alternate Universe theory!

I love how Lost started off with characters in the (relative) "present", then we learned more via character Flash Backs, then eventual character Flash Forwards, finally the island literally jumps backwards and forwards in time. Per the Alternate Universe logic, I wonder if we've seen Flash Alternates? Faraday mentions the possible power of the Variables (Jack, Kate, Sayid, Sawyer, etc). I found it interesting that those which Jacob touched are "Variables", as well. I wonder if Jacob's death allowed Jacob to travel to all these Variables for one last attempt to correct the future alternately? What if free will changes? Or even collective free will? Can that change the future. Ick - brain freeze.

Sorry- I hate posting a bunch of questions (bad blog fan). That's how my brain functions with Lost! There is an 8000 question to 1 answer ratio (for me). :-)

PS- Love this blog. The comments are rockin' too. You are all wicked smart!

Minna said...

Hmm... do things like Kate's horse and Ben's mother (who I assume is buried in a cemetery somewhere off-Island, since she died prior to Ben and Roger coming to the Island) put a hole in my ''any-body-that-is-not-burned'' theory? Or is this something different?

theSwan said...

At the beginning of "The Incident"part one, where we first see Jacob and MaybeEsau, they say: “It always ends the same.” Jacob says, “But it only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.”...WTF! What does this mean?? I want more!

Anonymous said...

Any ideas as to why croc/god/statue is holding two anks?

E.B. said...

I am so up for doing a re-watch with ya'll, what a good idea. {{Hi everybody I'm a newbie who's lovin' it over here.}} However I live on an island and the one and only video/dvd rental store has only the complete 2nd, 3rd and 4th seasons! Ugh! Time to look into Netflicks or some such, I suppose. What's a gal on a budget to do!

Now, I'm just throwing some comments out here.
RE: Others, Death, Sickness, Children

In the beginning of the series the others seem more scary than they do now. They steal children (why?), they're aggressive kidnappers, easily use force (often lethal), they're accompanied by eerie whispers and Smokie (or so we thought), often clad in jungle rags, etc.! There is a sickness on the island that makes some crazy, some sick. All of that had such ominous undertones. Subsequently, we get more of the others' back story, some are native others, some are Dharma, some recruited people. We see the others don't necessarily kill every non-other as it initially seemed. But then we have to reconcile the pit full of bodies from a purge. That is very scary, what could have caused [Ben to do]it? The same kind of sickness that prompted Danielle's love to try and kill her, making it necessary for her to kill him? Or something else? Radiation sickness? Getting rid of non-natives? When Sayid and Jack began opening fire on the Dharmites in The Incident, I thought for a second, oh, perhaps the dead bodies in the pit come from this shoot out!
Then I quickly realized that's not the case. Purge is such a strong word, what would necessitate it? Even with the homicidal-ly inclined Ben? And if bodies need to be burned or buried deep so as not to be tampered with by some entity, why were those just thrown in an open pit? Even without the entity-body-using element, it would be unwise to have a mass grave open like that: unsanitary, disease prone and dangerous. There is so much death and killing on this island.

leafonthewind88 said...

enjoy your blog and books nikki. i have a theory(it could be withces, sorry, big Buffy fan, couldnt resist) that the loophole badtwin locke spoke of involved Ben having to be "judged" by smokey. possibly only someone who had been deemed worthy by smokey could kill Jacob. badtwin locke obviously couldnt do the deed himself. i'm assuming that smokey is a free agent and has no allegiances to Jacob or maybesau.

Benny said...

As promised, my post on the Moebius theory is up:

Nikki Stafford said...

Sheesh, 98 comments?! That's the most a non-Lost-review has ever gotten. We apparently have a LOT to say about this episode! I need to break out some more posts or something. I definitely have some catching up to do.

And leafonthewind... that song is now in my head. But I love it, so that's OK! LOL!!

Blam said...


Esau is tired of Jacob bringing mortals to the Island only to have it end in "... destruction and corruption." What Jacob is saying is that each round of trial or observation or what-have-you has led to that same conclusion thus far but they're battles, not the whole war. To me Jacob is doing this less for his amusement than in an attempt to prove something -- humanity's ability to achieve the stuff of nobler aspirations -- to Esau, to himself, or to a higher power. That's why the whole thing reminds me of the "Old Testament" God knee-jerk wiping out the human race from disappointment over its wicked ways; the destruction of Sodom was at least an improvement over the Flood, which wiped out everything save what was on Noah's ark. Since Jacob's efforts so far have been episodic, he's telling Esau that the experiment isn't over 'til it's over, to quote Yogi Berra; until whatever deadline there might be from that higher power, or in Esau's promise to find the loophole that will allow him to kill Jacob, the next group of humanity brought to the Island will have its own chance to deal with the Island's gifts, its hazards if not curses, and one another.

Blam said...

Damon and Carlton confirming that the imperfect arrangement of the Ajira flight vis-a-vis recreating Oceanic 815 (or missing people, like Aaron and Desmond) was almost as frustrating, and more confusing, than the confirmation of Kate raising Aaron as a substitute for Sawyer. That's something that belongs in the show, and would seem to cut off much speculation about Jacob's or the Island's involvement in deliberately sending Jack, Kate, Sayid, and Hurley 30 years back because they needed to be there for some reason. Why would they be the only ones bumped back to 1977, then?

Blam said...

Who else saw the CSI season finale? I only got to it last night, and... Libby! Jacob!

I don't remember who first posted that the whispers could be echoes (or actually, bleed-through) from other times, HB, back when the time-skipping started happening, but it was a good notion -- and yeah, parallel realities would explain them too.

The whole membranes-between-dimensions being thin and accessible on certain parts of the Island is good thinking, SM. I like where you took my hypothesis.

How cool would it be to glimpse alternate histories of our gang, especially to see whether Oceanic 815 not crashing would be A Good Thing! What was it Desmond liked to say? "See you in another life..."

Could we get Chaaalie back if the standard timeline was reset by the explosion? Prob'ly wishful thinking... We've known since before this season began that while Claire would be sitting out Emilie de Ravin would be back as a regular next year, and yet "Darlton" said nothing about Dominic Monaghan -- though since his character's confirmed dead, it could just be a surprise until call sheets and IMDB blow it. I expect we'll get a couple of guest appearances from him at least, if only as a vision of Hurley's or in a flashback, what with it being the final season.

As I've said before, other than Rose and Bernard, the only 'ship I cared about was Charlie and Claire, and it'd be nice to see them reunited somehow, if not in the next life, as a happy couple at the end, appearing to Hurley and smiling like the ghostly trio at the end of Return of the Jedi (how appropriate), then possibly in an alternate life, even one only briefly glimpsed. I realize that the shortened season doesn't give us lots of playing room, as Sonshine noted, but I'm not counting out a trip through possible alternate timelines.

I didn't think about the young John Locke's drawing of Smokey until you brought it up, Hisham, which is why I'm so happy to be a part of this group. And despite concerns over the time commitment, I'm really looking forward to rewatching the whole series, but some family visits and a possible getaway this summer may mean ditching a week of discussion here or there.

Nashville Beatle said...

If the real Locke is apparently dead and the fake Locke is Jacob's adversary, then why doesn't the faux Locke already know where Jacob's home is? Doesn't make sense because the adversary is shown with Jacob at the statue at the beginning of the episode.

Benny said...

@Nashville: That's a question that remains to be answers. The loophole comment by Jacob certainly suggest it is him.

One could think that the real Locke did not know, and since he has to get someone else to kill Jacob, he must pretend he does not know.

Just a thought!

Blam said...

For the same reason the fake Locke is feigning surprise at other things he knows: So as not to tip his hand. Granted, he could claim to have Complete Island Knowledge, including Jacob's home, if he didn't think that would make Richard suspicious, but he needs Ben and clearly wants the rest of the Others there too, so maybe he figured this course of action was best. That may not be a completely satisfying answer, but we don't have all the context yet.

Nashville Beatle said...

What did people think of casting Mark Pellegrino as Jacob? I had heard about it for several weeks and I wasn't too sure if it would work. That said, I thought he was great; although, not what I was expecting. I have been a fan of Mark's ever since he played Jackie Treehorn's thug in the Big Lebowski.

what was the dude in the rocking chair at the cabin all about then? So was Ben just play acting when he was thrown against the wall?

Nikki Stafford said...

Nashville: I'd COMPLETELY forgotten about him in Lebowski!! THAT is where I know him from other than Dexter. Thanks for that!

Ben was faking it when he was talking to Jacob, I think. But I think he might have been legitimately thrown against the wall, and that's why there was such a look of shock and horror on his face. He thought he'd put on a little play, but he didn't realize that there really WAS someone in that chair who could throw him back, and when he did, that's why Ben suddenly looks really scared in that scene.

That's just my take on it.

The Shout said...

Thinking back: in the scenes between Not-Locke , Ben & Jacob in the finale, Ben states that he has never SEEN Jacob, not that he has never spoken to him. If he'd never seen or heard Jacob, how would even know to go to the cabin in the first place?
Possibly, Jacob's nemesis, seeing a weakness in Ben has been in contact with him pretending to Jacob.
And what was Richard doing when this was happening?

Richard: Where you going Ben?

Ben:I'm off to see Jacob.

Richard: Why you sneaking off into the forest? Jacob lives in the heal of an ancient egyptian statue.

Ben: I'm not going to his his beachside condo, I'm going to his holiday home.

Richard: (latin swear word deleted)

Severed Cord said...

I just wanted to post a comment regarding the whole Jacob and Esau thing and although I have not gone through all the comments I have been following your site for a while and love your incite. This is a real pertinent issue in the world today and I think if you anyone were to look at the whole Jewish/Christian Muslim conflict over the last several thousand years and the present conflict that world faces you will see that this birth right and so called "chosen people" ideal is a large part of that and I for one think that the writers for Lost are tapping into this. This is a real issue today.

Keep up the great Work.

Benny said...

@Severd Cord: Nice parallel!

This is just a nitpick of mine: but Islam has only existed for just under 1400 years. The 'several thousand' concept is erroneous.

Again just a nitpick, neither a criticism nor something personal. As I said, I like the parallel you brought up.

Batcabbage said...

Good God, I can't believe I didn't realise that Jacob was a Jackie Treehorn thug! The Big Lebowski is one of my top 5 favourite movies!

Jacob/Thug: (holding up a bowling ball) What the @#$% is this?

The Dude: Obviously you're not a golfer.


Frank said...

Out of all the millions of things I loved in this episode - I loved Ben. Michael played that final scene perfectly, and for the first time ever I actually felt for him... he was only looking for some sort of explanation, and he got nothing at all... he finally realized he was just another pawn in the grand scheme of things. Masterfully done, it's going to be a trying hiatus...

brodal said...

quick question-Rose had Vincent's leash in her hand and when the left behinders found the beach camp while they were flashing they found the leash at the there any significance to this? How did it get to their old beach camp from Rose & Bernard's place?

Benny said...

@brodal: for me, this is relatively simple to explain, as I see it at least. The main point is that Vincent and Rose exist in 1977 while the leash was found in the future (2007/2008) with the outriggers.

Possibly, the bomb makes everyone come back to a specific time to 2007, around Jacob's death presumably. They raid the camp and Vincent escapes his leash.

When Sawyer's group skips to the future (The Little Prince) they find the camp raided, Vincent's leash and the outriggers. My guess is that this flash from The Little Prince happens after Jacob is killed and after everyone flashed back to 2007 after the bomb detonates (if this is what really happens).

When everyone comes back, some people find the outriggers, raid the camp for food (and beer) and Vincent also manages to escape his leash. So Juliet could have shot anyone really, from Richard or Ilana to Jack or Kate and event Ben or Locke. We'll just have to wait...


Rebecca T. said...

@Nashville Beatle:So was Ben just play acting when he was thrown against the wall?

When Ben is talking to (I think) NotLocke, he says that he was just as surprised when things went flying around the room. So he was taken aback and he did actually see the same telekinetic display that John did.

Rebecca T. said...

Are you feeling Lost without Lost tonight? (I know I am). Well, my brilliant sister, AchingHope, has written a fake episode to follow up the season finale. I've posted it up on my blog so please stop by and check it out. If nothing else, it should make you laugh (and maybe go a tiny bit toward easing that Lost sized hole in your Wednesday/Thursday).

I'm going to stick this on a couple threads, cause I don't know who's reading what anymore...

Anonymous said...

In this summary of Tawaret, towards the bottom, it mentions that Tawaret was the consort of the god of evil Set and she kept him from doing evil by keeping him in chains. Could the incident be responsible for releasing him from the chains --hiding in the temple and becoming the smoke monster? If Tawaret's statue/Tawaret was destroyed then that could be why there are fertility problems after the incident as well?

L said...

I have a half theory on Jacob's enemy's loophole:

This "theory" only works if Jacob's enemy is the Smoke Monster (Smokey), and he has been inhabiting not just Locke's body, but other "dead" people on the island too. (Christian, Yemi, Alex). Lets just pretend that is true.
When you think back to all of the other people Smokey may have inhabited, there is a similarity. All of their bodies were missing.
When Jack finds Christian's coffin, it's empty. When Eko is looking through the Nigerian plane just before Yemi appears to him, Yemi's body is gone. We never really learn what happened to Alex's body, but we certainly don't ever see it again.
Whereas with Locke, his body is lying on the beach while Smokey, who is inhabiting him, is convincing Ben to stab Jacob.

It's not really a theory, but I just thought it was kind of cool.