[Baldwin:] He is outpolling most of the Democrats with their eyes on the White House. I'm talking about South Bend, Indiana, Mayor Pete Buttigieg. And then among all these Democrats, he's in a very unique position. If he makes it to the top of the ticket and eventually the Oval Office, Buttigieg would be the nation's first gay married man. And this week, he's calling out Vice President Mike Pence and his views on marriage equality. And Pence is hitting right back.
[Pete Buttigieg , Presidential Candidate:] My marriage to Chasten has made me a better man. And, yes, Mr. Vice President, it has moved me closer to God. And if you have got a problem with who I am, your problem is not with. Your quarrel sir, is with my creator.
[Mike Pence, Vice President Of The United States:] I hope that Pete will offer more to the American people than attacks on my Christian faith or attacks on the president, as he seeks the highest office in the land.
[Dana Bash, Cnn Chief Political Correspondent:] Right. Well, he argues that your quarrel is with him as a gay man and that he says, I was born this way, and this is the way God made me. That's just not your belief?
[Pence:] Well, I I think I think Pete's quarrel is with the First Amendment. All of this in this country have the right to our religious beliefs.
[Baldwin:] But Pete Buttigieg says he is not criticizing Pence's Christian faith.
[Buttigieg:] I'm not critical of his faith. I'm critical of bad policies. I don't have a problem with religion. I'm religious too. I have a problem with religion being used as a justification to harm people, and especially in the LGBTQ community.
[Baldwin:] Let's have a big old conversation about this. Joshua DuBois served as the White House adviser to President Obama on faith and race. And CNN religion commentator Father Edward Beck just interviewed Mayor Buttigieg on this very topic. So, gentlemen, thank you for being with me. And we will get back to this back and forth in just a moment. But, Father Beck, I have to start with you. What did the mayor tell you about his faith?
[Rev. Edward Beck, Cnn Contributor:] Well, he said, it's Gospel-based, and it's really socially driven for him. I mean, for him, Matthew 25 is the heart of the Gospel, that teaching of Jesus that said, did you care for the poor? Did you visit the imprisoned? Did you care for those in need? And he thinks that Governor Pence remember, they had a history. He was mayor of South Bend, Pete. And the mayor and the governor of Indiana tried to put through this religious freedom restoration act, which Mayor Pete saw as a license to discriminate against gay people. And so he went after it, and that's where this battle began. So he thinks that Mike Pence's view of religion is about sexual ethics. And Mayor Pete says, my view of religion is, care for the poor, do what Jesus did.
[Baldwin:] Well, you heard Mayor Pete on we played the clip from "Ellen," Joshua, where he says that he's not attacking the vice president's faith, but, rather, his policies. But when you look at someone like Mike Pence, his policies are based on his faith, right? They're intertwined.
[Joshua Dubois, Former Spiritual Adviser To President Obama:] Yes, but Mayor Pete is bringing up these big topics that are important in our democracy. I don't think this is about two individuals going back and forth. I think this is Mayor Pete saying, we have two very different world views and asking Mike Pence to explain what his world view is. He kind of he made two big points. The first one was, he was saying that in his initial speech that, as a Christian, as a veteran, as a mayor of an American city, and as a gay men, he believes that he's made in the image of God, that there's nothing wrong with him, that he doesn't have a defect about him. And if Mike Pence believes something differently, than Mike Pence should be able to explain that. He should be able to explain his world view. The second thing Mayor Pete said in the "Ellen" interview was that, around the country today, gay people can still be discriminated against in a couple dozen states. They can be denied housing if their landlord finds out they're gay. Their child can be refused service at the pediatrician if the doctor finds out that they're gay. And Mayor Pete believes that's wrong. And if Mike Pence believes differently, he should be able to explain his world view.
[Baldwin:] But to that point, there are still a lot of congregations and churches who have not made a place for the gay community, members of the gay community. And, Father Beck, I mean, isn't one of the reasons Mayor Pete is talking about his faith in such an open way is because he's gay? I mean, is he aiming to challenge the assumptions that some people may be making?
[Beck:] Most definitely, because he sees himself as a devout practicing Christian, and he's in a very inclusive community that he belongs to, St. James Cathedral in South Bend, and he is welcome there. That's where he married his husband. So I think what gets to him is when religion is used as a weapon to discriminate or to somehow put down someone else. If it's used for ill effect to somebody else, he says, that's not religion, that's not Christianity. He says, look at what Jesus did. Jesus didn't talk about homosexuality. Jesus didn't talk about gay marriage. Why are some people on the right, according to Mayor Pete, so obsessed with those issues, and not talking about what Jesus really talked about, the criterion for salvation, again, drink for the thirsty, food for the hungry, clothing for the naked, visit the imprisoned? This is where the Gospel lives for Mayor Pete. And he wants to have a conversation. He wants to rescue, he says, religion from the religious right and say, those of us who are progressives, he says, we should be using faith, because it's on our side.
[Baldwin:] Joshua, what do you think about that?
[Dubois:] Well, listen, I think it's fascinating that we have a progressive candidate who is inviting a conversation about the details of his values and his faith and how that applies in the world, and a vice president who seems to be running away from it, who's saying, listen, under the under the overall rubric of religious liberty, we shouldn't be talking about this or it's an attack on my faith. When I listen to Mayor Pete, I'm not hearing an attack. I'm hearing someone who wants to have a conversation about the values lines in this country. And I think that's a conversation that we should all welcome.
[Baldwin:] Joshua DuBois and Father Beck, gentlemen, a pleasure. Thank you so much for the conversation on a Friday afternoon.
[Dubois:] Thanks, Brooke.
[Baldwin:] Appreciate both of you.
[Dubois:] Thanks for having us.
[Baldwin:] Just in, we are getting word of an incident in front of the White House, a man apparently setting his jacket on fire. We will get you right back to Washington in just a moment.