[Christiane Amanpour, Cnn Host:] Tonight: President Obama get set to take down ISIS as top diplomats warn American and European jihadis could strike us right here at home.
[Ryan Crocker, U.s. Ambassador To Afghanistan:] If we don't think we're on their target list, we are delusional. They don't need to get a visa. They just need to get on a plane.
[Amanpour:] And Better Together or coming apart? The fevered and fierce debate over Scottish independence, the outcome hangs in the balance. Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the special weekend edition of the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour. In a major address to the American people this week that's also a sea change in his foreign policy, President Obama outlined his strategy for fighting ISIS in Iraq and in Syria.
[Barack Obama, President Of The United States:] We will conduct a systemic campaign of airstrikes against these terrorists working with the Iraqi government. We will expand our efforts beyond protecting our own people and humanitarian missions so that we're hitting ISIL targets as Iraqi forces go on offense. Moreover, I have made it clear that we will hunt down terrorists who threaten our country, wherever they are. That means I will not hesitate to take action against ISIL in Syria, as well as Iraq.
[Amanpour:] After rejecting intervention in Syria almost a year ago, the president has now also authorized not just airstrikes but the arming and training of Syrian rebels who are opposed to President Assad. It is a dramatic turnaround. But the war-weary American public are solidly on board. A CNN poll finds that three-quarters of Americans support airstrikes in Iraq and in Syria. As the president was putting the final touches on his address, I asked two veteran American diplomats with decades of Middle East experience between them about the chances of success and the challenges ahead. Ryan Crocker was U.S. ambassador to Syria and to Iraq and Robert Ford was America's last ambassador to Syria. Ambassador Robert Ford, Ambassador Ryan Crocker, welcome to the program and thank you for joining me tonight. Ambassador Ford, you have said Syria is the president's biggest failure. Do you think that he gets it now? Do you think that he is completely and utterly on board for this long strategic patience that Ambassador Crocker is advising?
[Robert Ford, Former U.s. Ambassador To Algeria:] Seems to me that the administration is more aware now of how the problems in Iraq and the problems in Syria are linked together, more than, say, a year or two ago. And I think that's very positive. And I'm impressed that they're looking at it in a very holistic way, involving diplomatic efforts, efforts to cut money flows as well as military operations, that it's not only a military problem but it's also one that is going to require efforts on multiple tracks.
[Amanpour:] Let me ask you both about Assad. You know, at the beginning of this conflict, it was, "Assad must go." Almost exactly a year ago, it was, "Assad has crossed a red line." The president was getting prepared to bring the American people on board for an attack against Assad. Now it's, "Assad is not our priority." That is President Obama's own words. So what do you both think? Should Assad be enjoined into the U.S. and coalition fight against ISIS? Should he be informed? Ambassador Ford?
[Ford:] I personally don't see how Assad is going to help us very much against the Islamic State. The Islamic State has defeated Assad's forces in Eastern Syria largely. There's one air base holding out against the Islamic state. They have totally been defeated in the central part of the country by the Islamic State. And Assad's forces are growing tired. They just don't have the bodies. They don't have the manpower to retake Central and Eastern Syria. So I don't see in an operational sense how he's going to help. And politically, it's very damaging with our regional friends, countries like Saudi Arabia, Turkey and others.
[Amanpour:] Ambassador Crocker, you had maybe six months or eight months ago suggested that maybe Assad should be part of some kind of pragmatic deal against ISIS. You don't agree with that position you had anymore. You've reversed yourself.
[Crocker:] Christiane, circumstances change. We have an existential enemy. And what I have argued recently is we need to fight that enemy wherever we can find him, in Iraq and in Syria. He cannot have a safe haven in Syria.
[Amanpour:] You have called the Islamic State Al Qaeda 6.0. Secretary Hagel has said the Islamic State is the worst thing we've ever confronted. Is it really that much worse than Al Qaeda, that committed 911 13 years ago almost to the day?
[Crocker:] Christiane, if you're if you're asking me, yes. They are more numerous. They are better armed. They are far better financed. They are better experienced. And perhaps most critically, there are several thousand of them who hold Western passports, including American passports. They don't need to get a visa. They just need to get on a plane. And as I have said, if we don't think we're on their target list, we are delusional.
[Amanpour:] Can I ask both of you Ambassador Crocker is on the record, saying that on no account should we be getting any cooperation from Iran or anything like that. On the other hand, it is apparently established wisdom that the Iranian forces have actually been helping the disarrayed Iraqi forces against ISIS in Iraq. Their pictures of the Quds Force commander on the ground and recent news that Iran's Supreme Leader had given some kind of approval to, you know, a general "all work together" on this. Ambassador Crocker, you don't agree that Iran should be in the fight against ISIS. Do you, Ambassador Ford? First to you, Ambassador Crocker.
[Crocker:] Christiane, no one understands better than you how complex all of this is. Right now our most critical fight, I think, is inside Iraq and it isn't against ISIS. It is the effort that both Robert and I have referred to of helping the Iraqis form an inclusive government that will stand together against a common enemy. The worst thing we could do right now as they still struggle through this is to look as though we are supporting Iran and Iran's surrogates inside Iraq. That will send the Sunnis completely in the wrong direction. And if we do not have a government of national unity in the true sense inside Iraq, none of the rest of this is going to work. When I see Qasem Soleimani, the head of the Iranian Quds Force, inside Iraq for prolonged periods, it's clear to me that we are working at cross- purposes because, I can tell you, whether it's nuclear negotiations, whether it's anything else to do in region with Afghanistan or with Iraq or bilaterally, Qasem Soleimani is our foe.
[Ford:] Oh, I totally agree for two reasons, Christiane. The Iranians are promoting the use of Iraqi undisciplined Shia militias, which are themselves guilty of sectarian killings. The second reason that I think that we really can't do much with Iran is that their strategic goal in Syria is to maintain Bashar al-Assad. But it's pretty clear that the continued survival of the Assad regime has both directly and indirectly helped the Islamic State.
[Amanpour:] Can I ask you both about American leadership? President Obama has been interestingly reflective, recently talking about Libya. He basically said it's one of his biggest foreign policy regrets, that it wasn't that instead of just an Air Force to topple Gadhafi, there wasn't an organized U.S.-led plan, a strategic plan for post-getting rid of Gadhafi.
[Crocker:] You used the critical word: leadership. The president has to decide that he is going to lead and he is going to lead for the long term, that he is not going it alone but that he is leading a coalition that has to be international and it has to be regional, but that he is leader and that he is all in. He was not all in in Libya. He has said that he is ending wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Well, actually, Christiane and you know it better after what you've been through you don't end a war by walking off the battlefield and leaving it to your enemies. Nothing good is going to happen in Iraq, in Syria and in the region without American leadership and, in our system, that means presidential leadership.
[Amanpour:] Ambassador Ryan Crocker, Ambassador Robert Ford, thank you both very much for joining me. From the heat of battle to the heat of debate, from the street corners of Glasgow to the Palace of Westminster, one question is on everyone's lips: yes or no? The referendum on independence for Scotland is on a knife edge. The issues and the implications next.