[Unidentified Male:] Just when you thought it was safe to go back to Florida: The ballots are back, and some people are dying to count them.
[Ii:] Curse of the Chad." Coming soon to a news channel near you.
[Bill Press, Co-host:] Well, you know, maybe George Bush resigned as governor too soon. They're still counting ballots in Florida, watch out.
[Tucker Carlson, Co-host:] I don't think so, Bill. The movie's over, the lights are up, they're sweeping up the popcorn and going home, thank heaven.
[Press:] Good evening, everybody. It's THE SPIN ROOM right here on CNN. I'm Bill Press, thank you for joining us.
[Tucker:] And I'm Tucker Carlson. Tonight, another recount story it never ends. We want to know what you think; we have the suspicion you think something about this. You can call us, as always, toll-free, 1-800-310-4CNN. You can join our live, online chat at cnn.com, or you can send us an e-mail. Our address, needless to say, is spin@cnn.com.
[Press:] Yes, giving you a chance to sound off about the issues you care about and, of course, our purpose, as every night, is to prove that, no matter how serious it gets, it never has to be grim no grimness, Tucker.
[Carlson:] Even when the news is grim; and it's getting a little grim. The recount goes on and on and on. As if we needed another reason to hate the press of course, Bill and I don't but many of you out there, we suspect, hate the press. And of course the press has begun the recount again. News organizations plan to recount the ballots.
[Press:] As we know, here is what's going on: The Associated Press, "Miami Herald," "The New York Times," "The Los Angeles Times, and "The Wall Street Journal," among the newspaper organizations they've all requested, under Florida's sunshine law, the opportunity, the right, to go in there and count these ballots. And they've already started. I think they started in Broward County, and they sit around the table and Tucker, you know, pretty soon we're going to know there they are. Pretty soon we're going to know who really won in Florida. We don't know yet, Tucker.
[Carlson:] The problem is, Bill, that at some point you move from mathematics to metaphysical questions. There are 65,000 overcounts. That means there are 65,000 approximately ballots on which voters wrote the names of two candidates. How do you decide who that voter meant to vote for? There's no way, unless you're a psychic; and, perhaps, there are psychics on the staffs of those daily newspapers. Otherwise, we will never know.
[Press:] Well, I would submit that overcounts will be discredited, and should be. But it's the undercounts, the ones the machine didn't get isn't this sounding awfully familiar that we're going to have to take a look at. But my question to you is: What are you going to do maybe before January 20, maybe January 21, when we find out that Al Gore not only won the popular vote, but he won Florida; thereby he won the electoral vote and you have an impostor in the White House. What are you going to do will you ask him to resign?
[Carlson:] Actually, I have an answer for that. I would send a team of psychiatric nurses, burly, male psychiatric nurses with nets to wherever Al Gore is staying and put him under 24 hour suicide watch because this will push that poor man completely over the edge.
[Press:] No, I think you better send those psychiatric nurses to the White House, because this will push George W. Bush right over the edge.
[Carlson:] One suspects not.
[Press:] It doesn't take much, I think, to push him over the edge. But I also think this is great; to me, it's the power of the press. The courts Supreme Court stopped the counties from counting the vote, but they can't stop the press from...
[Carlson:] The guardians of the First Amendment, that would be us. And you know, Bill, if it was so much fun the first time, why not do it again?
[Press:] God bless America, our viewers are already into this count in their e-mail. Tucker, here's one from Francis Ward: "The current manual count in Florida is secretly being orchestrated by the mysterious allies of Tucker Carlson with the sole intention of keeping THE SPIN ROOM alive."
[Carlson:] You know, Francis Ward is onto something, and it goes without saying that all of our allies are mysterious, and for good reason.
[Press:] Francis saw right through us.
[Carlson:] Our viewers are very perceptive. This is from Ann Jane, who's been watching. She's taking issue with something we said on another show: "You said that there was never going to be closure in this election because. Even when the vote count is finished by news organizations, their numbers might vary. There will be closure," she counters. "It will happen in January 2005 at President Rodham's inauguration." Sometimes closure isn't pretty.
[Press:] Right on, Hillary. All right, Rob's e-mail about the recount: "If we are going to say Bush might not have won the election because of undervotes, then you have to say that Gore might not have won the popular vote for the same reason."
[Carlson:] Actually, I think you could say more than that. I think you could say that, in 1992 and 1996, Bill Clinton didn't win those elections because there were a number of uncounted votes, and that, actually, has been my theory for the past eight years. But you know, up until this point nobody's taken me seriously. Thank you, Rob, for doing so.
[Press:] I think you can say nobody takes you seriously, Tucker, you know that. But I think you could say that, with Al Gore heard by 544,000 votes in the popular by margin of that in the popular vote I think he's safe. I do think...
[Carlson:] There are a lot of disenfranchised voters.
[Press:] We want to look right inside of those counting rooms; and we're lucky tonight because we have somebody who sort of instigated the whole thing. He joins us now from Miami.
[Carlson:] We have an actual chad-gazer. Joining us from Miami is a familiar face from the days of the Florida election marathon. Mark Seibel is assistant managing editor, AME, of "The Miami Herald." Thank you for joining us.
[Press:] Good evening, Mark. Good to have you here.
[Mark Seibel, Assistant Managing Editor, "miami Herald":] Good evening. Thank you.
[Press:] Now, Mark, one of the big questions a lot of people have is, why are you guys doing this and, in fact, one of our colleagues from the media, John Gibson, who's moved over now to Fox...
[Carlson:] I think colleague is a little strong.
[Press:] I guess it may be. Well, he's another journalist moving over to Fox, and he is saying that you've got no business doing this. I want you to respond. Here's what John Gibson said just a couple days ago on Fox: "George Bush is going to be president. And who needs to know that he's not a legitimate president? Al Gore? Jesse Jackson? His political opponents? How does it do any good for the country to find out that, by somebody's count, the wrong guy is president?" What do you say to that, Mark?
[Seibel:] Well, we've looked at the situation in the same way we look at many situations. We're journalists; there are documents. In this case, there are ballots out there that might shed some light on something people are debating, that there's a lot of lingering questions about; and that, in fact, at least in Florida, there will be legislative action about. So I think it would be completely irresponsible for us to not take a look the ballots and try and see what light we can cast on this controversy.
[Carlson:] But I guess my question is more of a kind of, inside journalism question here. Once you have assessed these ballots and used the various standards to do it, my first question is: What are you going to do with that information? Are you going to put out some sort of special edition? And do you expect that anyone will read it? And [b] who gets the assignments to count the ballots? Do you draw straw I mean, it's got to be the worst assignment in all of journalism.
[Seibel:] Well, actually, we have lots of volunteers to count the ballots. We've been getting calls from all over the country, volunteers wanting to count the ballots. And our own staff, you know, lots of our reporters would like to be part of this story. This is a if nothing else, it's a historic moment. It's a footnote in the history books, perhaps, because I think people are right when they say George Bush won the election and he's the president. But an awful lot of people, actually, are interested; and my volume of e-mail and calls and those kinds of things indicate to me that all over the country people are looking forward to reading whatever conclusion we might have at the end of this.
[Carlson:] Let me just make sure we get this straight: You're taking volunteers, kind of randoms off the street to help count the ballots?
[Seibel:] No; we have lots of volunteers but, fortunately we don't need them.
[Press:] All right, Mark, here's my insider question: What standard are you using? I mean, if the judges couldn't sort it out dimple, pregnant, hanging, daylight test what did you guys decided to use as your test?
[Seibel:] Well, what we started out doing and I mean, what we are doing, is reviewing the ballots just to objectively describe them. And we've put together a form that has, you know, seven potential characteristics and then the opportunity for comment, should there be one we haven't allowed for. And we've asked our reviewers to just note, is there a dimple? Is there a hanging chad that's attached by one corner, two corners, three corners? Is there, you know, a clean punch? Or is there no mark at all in the presidential row? And that's what we've asked them to do. And then, based on that, we'll do a computer sort.
[Press:] All right; so, then, you're going to report and say, if you count hanging chads, Gore won; if you count dimpled chads, Bush won is that it? I mean, you're going to give us different scenarios?
[Seibel:] Yes, we'll come up, I suspect, with a range. You know, people talk about, you know, what standard we're going to use but we, in fact, have standards that the Palm Beam Canvassing Board and the Broward Canvassing Board did work with. And so we hope we've constructed our review process in a way that we can apply both the Palm Beach and the Broward standards.
[Carlson:] But what about the ballots themselves? I mean, Republicans this is a talking point, but it's still a real question these ballots have been handled a lot, they've been in the Ryder truck. And then you're going to have reporters, many of whom, let's be honest, have shaky hands, trying to look at these ballots that maybe be ragged around edges. Is that not a concern?
[Seibel:] It's not much of a concern, to be honest. One, the reporters don't get to touch ballots; the elections workers are the only people under state law who can handle the ballot. The other thing I look at the ballots. They're not ragged around the edges. Ballots are meant to be handled. They go through lots of handling, and the only chads, we're told, that one would expect to fall out is chads that were meant to fall out. So I think that is I think you aptly described it as a talking point. These ballots, in our review process, look perfectly fine. I mean, they're, you know, they're marked in different and sometimes unusual ways. But they don't seem to be any the worse for wear.
[Press:] All right, Mark, hang in there, because we have a lot more questions for you. By the way, I never would have accused you, nor Tucker, of having shaky hands. I don't...
[Carlson:] Oh, I would excuse him of having shaky hands.
[Press:] Well...
[Carlson:] You don't know Mark Seibel. Come on.
[Press:] We're going to take a break. We've got a lot more questions about the Florida recount. Get your nominations in for "Spin of the Day," folks, you know that moment that you just found so outrageous a statement by somebody. And you can get them in by phone. It's a free call, no charge: 1-800-310-4CNN. Join our chat room at cnn.com, or send us an e-mail. Our address, again, spin@cnn.com. We'll be right back with the ongoing count in Florida.
[Carlson:] We shall.
[Press:] There we go.
[Carlson:] Welcome back to THE SPIN ROOM. I'm Tucker Carlson here with Bill Press. It is time for our Canada moment, Bill: that time we reserve in the show to pay tribute to our...
[Press:] Favorite favorite part of the show.
[Carlson:] ... friends to the north. We have an e-mail. More than an e-mail, an invitation. "Dear Bill and Tucker, how about coming up to Toronto and hosting a SPIN ROOM in Canada..."
[Press:] I'm ready.
[Carlson:] "... for a week. If you're good, we may even give you tickets to a hockey game."
[Press:] Red carpet.
[Carlson:] ... because as of last week, we are now officially honorary Canadian citizens. We received these in the mail. Our citizenship certificates. These are valid at any international border. We're on our way. SPIN ROOM from Canada. Thank you to our friends from the north.
[Press:] Yes. And Tucker, I have my honorary citizenship as well...
[Carlson:] And handsome it is.
[Press:] ... I just want you to know. So we both have them. And in addition to that, I just want to say thanks to, here it is, Ulysses Promotions from Long Beach, California. This ties right into the topic of tonight's show, which is, did Bush really win in Florida? This T-shirt, the "Bush presidency" actually if you read it closely, it says "The Ambushed Presidency."
[Carlson:] "The Ambushed Presidency." Tonight's SPIN ROOM brought to you by Ulysses Promotions.
[Press:] We love it. We love it.
[Carlson:] Ulysses Promotions loves it...
[Press:] There was some other news of the day.
[Carlson:] Indeed, there was tons of news.
[Press:] However, it wasn't it wasn't all just about the Florida recount.
[Carlson:] And it wasn't all promotional T-shirts. No, today George W. Bush resigned from his position as governor of Texas in an emotional ceremony. His seat was taken by Lieutenant Governor Rick Perry. News organization spotted cardboard boxes in the governor's mansion. He is, in fact, leaving.
[Press:] And of course, the question that we're raising tonight is did he resign too soon. The governor was also busy in Austin today deciding some other Cabinet nominations. I want to acknowledge last night, I sort of pre-empted what do I say? Got ahead of myself. I mentioned that Tommy Thompson had been appointed yesterday.
[Carlson:] You may have.
[Press:] He's going to be appointed tomorrow as secretary of HHS, and big news: New Jersey Governor Christie Todd Whitman is going to be the new director of the Environmental Protection Agency. And as we will see a little later in the show, Tucker, that nomination is driving some conservatives bananas.
[Carlson:] You know, Bill, the news was good until I heard that. There's always one fly in the ointment. Is that the phrase? But in good news today, the Nasdaq has Salon.com, the online magazine that once panned us, down to 93 cents a share from a high of over $10 this year. Bill and I, as your investment managers, recommend selling. If you're holding Salon.com stock, sell. At 93 cents, it's still overvalued.
[Press:] Don't put my name on that recommendation. I like Salon, and I hope they make it, We're talking about the Florida recount with a man who's helped organize it. He's taking part in it. He's accepting volunteers from all over the country who want to help. Mark Seibel, the assistant managing editor of "The Miami Herald." Now, Mark, one of our viewers actually has nominated you for "Spin of the day," if I may, and this is what's he said. He's quoting you, where you said quote "We are expecting whatever we find." Do you remember saying that and what did you mean?
[Seibel:] Well, I might have said that, not a very good sentence. But basically, you know, people ask us what we are expecting, and I would have to say we're very much just beginning this process, and I don't know what we're expecting. And we will, in fact, find whatever it is we find. We're going to look at the ballots. We're going to compare them to whatever we can compare them to. We're going to judge them. We're going to write what seems to us to be appropriate conclusions to be done from that review. But people ask us, what we're going to write, and like any journalist, I think I say, I don't know what we're going to write until we've done the reporting.
[Press:] Good man!
[Carlson:] But this has been I mean, this has been looked at by lawyers and judges and appellate judges and justices from the state and federal supreme courts. I mean, you must have, after all that looking and of course, they've been recounted twice by machine you must have some sense that Gore, if they were counted as you're going to count them, will come out on top, don't you think?
[Seibel:] Well, actually, no, I don't think that's true at all. We did sort of a little analysis here again based on precinct by precinct information, when the state Supreme Court issued its order for a recount. Our conclusion from that it was probable, if not likely, that Bush would remain ahead. So I think it's we don't no what these ballots will actually have in them, and to say that they've that lawyers and judges and whoever have reviewed them, well, in fact, that's not true. Nobody has really looked at most of these ballots.
[Press:] Mark, a couple of quick questions: How long is it going to take you? When are you going to be finished?
[Seibel:] Well, we hope to measure it in weeks and not months, but the truth is the first two days of Broward County counting earlier this week went much more slowly than we anticipated.
[Press:] And...
[Seibel:] Go ahead.
[Press:] And I saw one of the election officials I forget for what county said she wasn't going to let you see these ballots. She was putting them under lock and key until unless a judge ordered her to give the ballots to you. So are you going to have access to all 67 counties?
[Seibel:] Yes, because I'm sure a judge will order her to do that.
[Carlson:] And very quickly, Mark, I'm just wondering...
[Press:] That's the answer.
[Carlson:] What is this costing "The Miami Herald"? This must be enormously expensive.
[Seibel:] Well, we don't know yet. Knight-Ridder, which is our parent company it owns newspapers all over the United States, "The Kansas City Star" and "The Fort Worth Star Telegram," and "The Philadelphia Inquirer," "Detroit Free Press," "San Jose Mercury," and others.
[Press:] All right. End of plug.
[Carlson:] Do you have a web site? Just kidding.
[Seibel:] They're yes.
[Carlson:] Just kidding.
[Seibel:] You know, they're they're going to help underwrite the cost of it. Knight-Ridder believes very strongly that it's a good project for the country's interest and certainly of interest to our readers. The final analysis, we don't know.
[Press:] They've got lots they've got lots of money, and Mark, we don't have lots of time, because we're going to have say goodbye to you.
[Carlson:] But we appreciate thank you for coming out and explaining that.
[Press:] And when you get the count, OK, we want you to come back and give us that whole breakdown hanging, dimpled, you know, who wins by what standard.
[Carlson:] In fact, you can come on the night before it goes to print. If you could break it here, we'll be grateful.
[Seibel:] We'll need the show.
[Press:] OK, you got it. Mark Seibel, thanks very, very much. And now, going to take a break and come back with your favorite, our favorite part of the show, our "Spins of the Day."
[Carlson:] Yes.
[Press:] Our "Spins of the Day."
[Carlson:] We're going to sort through the pile that you're going to send in the commercial break, we hope. We'll be right back.
[Press:] It's THE SPIN ROOM, of which we call in all humility the newest sensation on CNN. I'm Bill Press...
[Carlson:] Do we call it that?
[Press:] ... here with Tucker Carlson.
[Carlson:] Let's call it that.
[Press:] Somebody has to. Time for "Spin of the Day." We start out with a phone call from Dan in Kansas. Hello, Dan. Thanks for joining us. You're in
[The Spin Room. Caller:] Hello Bill and Tucker. I was wondering, I'm a veteran. I was in the Marine Corps for a number of years and I voted absentee a few times and I was wondering if these absentee ballots, I think over 1,400 of them, were thrown out on different technicalities. In Broward County itself, only 92 were accepted and 304 were rejected. Are they going count those ballots, too? It should be pretty clear whether they're whether they're, you know, for the who or what.
[Press:] Dan, I hear your question and I think they should be counted but I think none of us know whether or not they...
[Carlson:] I think we have to leave it to "The Miami Herald," Dan. Doesn't that make you feel better. It warms my heart. And speaking of warm heart, Bill, we've been getting tons of Christmas cards.
[Press:] I know, from everybody but...
[Carlson:] Mostly for you, and the best one I think we've received all season comes not from a politician, not from the garbage collectors in California you get those Christmas cards from, but from a journalist. Tim Russert.
[Press:] Look at this.
[Carlson:] NBC's "Meet the Press." Is that fantastic?
[Press:] That's a great guy. The staff of "Meet the Press" and Tim with his chalkboard that he used on election night. Indeed, not the only Christmas card that we've received. I wanted you to know here's one, a person who has a warm spot in my heart. Now, folks look very, very, very closely. You won't recognize that grizzly bear on the left, but you may recognize Shelley Buchanan on the right and yes, hidden away in that fur coat is Pat Buchanan.
[Carlson:] Going after the Eskimo vote. It looks like he's hugging a dog.
[Press:] President-Elect Buchanan, there he is.
[Carlson:] Doesn't he look like he's kissing a dog?
[Press:] So, Tucker, there it is, add Pat Buchanan, add Tim Russert to the list. I would point out none from Crawford, Texas and there's only one more night for George W. to get his card in.
[Carlson:] As I told you, Bill, you made fun of his dog.
[Press:] I know, but why not? It's a dumb name.
[Carlson:] Bill Press, please apologize for making fun of Bush's dog's name, writes Karen Noles. Spot is a nice, honest name for a dog. If you left it up to Bush's handlers and speechwriters, the dog would probably be named Thomas Jefferson.
[Press:] I like Thomas Jefferson better than Spot. My "Spin of the Day" today. Conservative Gary Bauer was on CNN's "INSIDE POLITICS." He's not happy with George Bush's appointees, believe it or not. Here's what he said, first of all.
[Gary Bauer, Campaign For Working Families:] I'm changing my position, here. I think I might be in favor of bipartisan if that means we can get some conservatives in the Cabinet.
[Press:] Now, he said that, and then here's how he whacked Christie Todd Whitman, the new head of EPA. Listen to Gary Bauer, of all people.
[Bauer:] Appointing her is like waving a red flag in front of the people that stuffed the envelopes, rang the doorbells and made George Bush president.
[Press:] I would just like to point out to Gary Bauer that George won, you lost.
[Carlson:] I would just like to point out to Gary Bauer that if he had said this earlier, I might have voted for him. Here's my "Spin of the Day." This comes we put up on the screen at a recent party at which the President and Mrs. Clinton were dining, somebody said to the president, you ought give the Medal of Freedom out. And he said, well, people who get the Medal of Freedom tend to die earlier, maybe I should have given one to Katherine Harris. "The Washington Post" found out about this and White House Press Secretary Jake Siewert said quote to "The Post": "It is inappropriate to print something like this during the holiday season." Now, we like Jake Siewert, but if it's inappropriate to print, perhaps it's inappropriate to call for the death of Katherine Harris. Does that qualify as inappropriate, Bill? I know you're not a fan.
[Press:] I would say it was appropriate to print and to say.
[Carlson:] To call for her death.
[Press:] All right, we're going to have to pick that up again tomorrow night.
[Carlson:] We call that the politics of personal destruction.
[Press:] We'll be back tomorrow night. Out of time of time for now. We'll be back tomorrow night at 10:30.
[Carlson:] And every single night, now through eternity.
[Press:] But don't go away because the sports guys are coming up next right here on CNN.