[Allen:] According to Johns Hopkins University, the total of coronavirus cases in the United States stands at more than 3.2 million; 29 states are reporting spikes in cases. You can see them here in red and orange. Single day case records were broken Saturday in Texas, Wisconsin and South Carolina. New guidance from the CDC says up to 40 percent of people infected by the virus may show no symptoms at all but they can still spread it to others. We're going to talk about the latest developments with my guest. Joining me from Toulouse, France, is Sian Griffiths. She led Hong Kong's inquiry into SARS in 2003. Thank you so much for joining us. Good to see you. Good to have you on again.
[Dr. Sian Griffiths, Emeritus Professor, Chinese University Of Hong Kong:] Thanks.
[Allen:] As of Saturday, the United States has 61,352 new cases and we keep setting new records every day. What does that tell you about the situation we are in here?
[Griffiths:] From an external perspective, it shows that you're not really in control of the virus. The epidemic is increasing, the numbers keep as you say, keep breaking the records, which is a really unfortunate record to keep breaking. And it is a very serious situation because obviously COVID is running rife, particularly in those states that show red on your map.
[Allen:] It is hard to fathom, isn't it, how quickly states like Florida and even West Virginia now, Louisiana, South Carolina, are surging and so rapidly. What should states do to try to turn this back?
[Griffiths:] I think they need to get public messages out. This is a serious disease. There is a sense that it doesn't seem to matter if you get COVID, I read about COVID parties. But that's just ridiculous to think this isn't a serious disease. It can affect any of us. It is more likely to affect older people, more likely to kill people who are older with a pre-existing condition. At the same time, young people can also contract it and there are long-term consequences of having the disease. So really it is a matter of saying what can we do as individuals and what can we do as authorities. And so for individuals, it is remembering social distancing, remember social hygiene and I would advise face covering from mask wearing. And for the states, they need to think about what lockdown measures should be in place to stop the spread of disease. It seems to be increasing, increasing, increasing. And we head as we head toward winter, we add in flu and the
[Allen:] We also now have seen this new development from the CDC, which estimates 40 percent of people infected don't have any symptoms. How does that complicate the situation?
[Griffiths:] It means that if you don't feel unwell, you think, I haven't got it. But in fact you can be infectious. If you're close to somebody who is vulnerable, then they will get the infection or they may well get the infection. What you need to do is remember that each and every one of us needs to take those hand washing precautions, wear face coverings, needs to remember social distance and remember that, when we go shopping, when we go out for a meal, remember when with friends, we need to remember that, though we have no symptoms, we could be infectious.
[Allen:] And how long could it now take, do you think, for the U.S. to get out from under this?
[Griffiths:] It will depend on what measures are taken. And I think, you know, I think that people that's why I'm really emphasizing it is the measures you take. We we can hope there is going to be a vaccine. But the vaccine isn't with us yet. And then the question is, who gets the vaccine? Having a vaccine is not necessarily the answer. We're getting better at treating people. But a lot of the hospital system is under pressure. So don't rely on the hospital system. It is going to be about the public health precautionary measures, which will, you know, if you get symptoms, get tested, go into isolation, make sure your contacts are also tested and are in isolation and so that we can break the chain of transmission. That's what we need to do and we need to do it many times over when you have such a huge surge in so many places.
[Allen:] Yes, and the threat here is hospitals being overrun, Florida, Miami-Dade County, is seeing over 100 percent increase in ventilators. There are a lot of very sick people in these hospitals. And even manpower could be short at some point. And that would put the United States in a situation that could be, well, quite frankly, historic.
[Griffiths:] Well, the unfortunate thing is that we saw, in Wuhan, where the disease started in January, it was those pictures of overwhelmed hospitals, healthcare staff, who were getting sick and finding themselves because we know that they're at risk because they're closer to the virus. It is the fact that the healthcare system can be overwhelmed. It was overwhelmed in northern Italy and so the States have plenty of time to look at these messages. That's what is so unfortunate. And we you will start to run out of protective equipment. You will start to run out of ventilators if you can't stop the curb this disease and prioritize who gets care. All these things are
[Allen:] Really important that you stress that people in these states must get proper information, you know. This has been a very much a conflict here in the United States. Young people, as you mentioned, haven't taken it seriously. I saw one report today where a young woman, who was 30 years old, in a hospital died and. The last words to the nurse was, I got this wrong. I thought it was a hoax. That just goes to show you how far we are to getting the message straight.
[Griffiths:] You really have to get the message straight. This is not a hoax. It can affect young people. It can also affect children. So to think it doesn't is incorrect. And sometimes they can get an extremely severe reaction. So it is a serious disease. It will it can be controlled if we all take it seriously. But if you think of it as a hoax, it is not a hoax. It is a real disease. You look across the world. You look at Brazil, Mexico, you look at Indonesia, Pakistan, India, they're all seeing increases in numbers of cases, increases in deaths. And the deaths are among the most vulnerable and the elderly. So you know, young people, it's your granny you're protecting when you take the measures, if not yourself.
[Allen:] We always appreciate your expertise, Sian Griffiths, joining us from Toulouse, France, thank you so much.
[Griffiths:] Thank you. Thank you.
[Allen:] Two Republican senators have broken ranks with U.S. president Donald Trump after he commuted the prison sentence of his long time friend and ally, Roger Stone. Senators Mitt Romney and Pat Toomey both denounced clemency for Stone, even though most other Republican lawmakers have remained quiet on the matter. Stone was convicted of seven felonies, including lying to Congress and witness tampering. The president on Saturday doubled down on his action, defying what the attorney general said about the Stone case.
[Trump:] Roger Stone was treated horribly. Roger Stone was treated very unfairly. Roger Stone was brought into this witch hunt, this old political witch hunt and the Mueller scam, it is a scam, because it has been proven false and he was treated very unfairly. What I did what I did, I will tell you this, people are extremely happy because in this country they want justice. And Roger Stone was not treated properly.
[William Barr, U.s. Attorney General:] Well, as you know, the Stone case was prosecuted while I was attorney general. And I supported it. I think it was established, he was convicted of obstructing Congress and witness tampering. And I thought that was a righteous prosecution. And I was happy that he was convicted.
[Allen:] Most thought it was a righteous conviction there, prosecution of Roger Stone. The former special counsel of the Russia investigation, Robert Mueller, made a rare, reacting to Trump'action. In "The Washington Post," he wrote this, "I feel compelled to respond both to broad claims that our investigation was illegitimate and our motives were improper and to specific claims that Roger Stone was a victim of our office. "The Russia investigation was of paramount importance. Stone was prosecuted and convicted because he committed federal crimes. He remains a convicted felon and rightly so." Let's get more perspective now on this. Joining me from London, Inderjeet Parmar, a visiting professor at the London School of Economics. Thank you for coming on.
[Inderjeet Parmar, Visiting Professor, London School Of Economics:] Thank you, good morning.
[Allen:] Good morning to you. There has been no shortage of outrage over this move by President Trump. A CNN Legal Analyst, Jeffrey Toobin, called the president's move the most corrupt and cronyistic act in perhaps all of recent history. What are your thoughts?
[Parmar:] Well, it is within his constitutional remit. On the other hand, the a commutation of a sentence doesn't mean a pardon, doesn't mean the person is not guilty. But what it does show, if you like, is that President Trump is continuing to declare war on what he would call the deep state and he wants to wear again the mantle of the champion of the people, who is draining the swamp and so on and still fighting that war. But what he shows is that now something like seven of his advisers who are convicted of various crimes, some of them are serving sentences. But President Trump wants to try to exonerate himself by exonerating the people who basically acted on his behalf, even if not necessarily with his own knowledge. So he's basically doing the opposite of draining the swamp, as a promise he made to the American people.
[Allen:] On another topic involving the president, he finally wore a mask in this pandemic. Took a minute. Who knows if he'll continue because he doesn't like the look of it but he bent to pressure from his team. What could be the significance when you consider he has staunchly rebuffed recommendations from top health officials as cases surge in the U.S.? And he does impact his supporters. His country has had serious conflicts over mask wearing because they just haven't gotten that leadership from this president.
[Parmar:] Yes, I think what it suggests is that President Trump's recent strategy of that there is no pandemic, there is no problem, people will get used to it, it won't make any impact and so on, has been basically contradicted by facts on the ground. There is an objective reality about a pandemic. You can't just wish it away. And as it moves closer to his political heartlands, it effectively has had massive political effects. And there is a great fear among the GOP leadership that they're going to lose the Senate and possibly quite badly. The number of states which are safe, Republican states like Iowa, for example, now appear to be coming into play. And from what reports that I've read, it suggests the GOP leadership is putting pressure on the Trump administration to take this a lot more seriously, handle it better. And effectively he's got until about Labor Day to save the day. But he's sinking in the polls. He's behind in key states which he won in 2016 like Florida, for example and battleground states as well and also nationally. And he also appears to hit a low of 17 percent loyalty approval among his GOP voters as well. So there is a kind of massive shift going on, which is sort of taking the rug from under his feet. And the GOP leadership is keeping a good eye on this now. And they're even casting around for other candidates in future elections as well. So I think they're losing a little bit of confidence and giving him a deadline to get it right by Labor Day or you're done. So the mask wearing may be a signal of a change of strategy.
[Allen:] Perhaps. We'll wait and see. You recently co-wrote an article stating that mismanagement of the COVID crisis on behalf of the president, coupled with racial upheaval we have seen over police brutality and the president's response to that, have contributed to a terrible but perfect political storm. Can you elaborate?
[Parmar:] Yes, any storm of this character will take me a long time in the making. So President Trump, if you like, is the person in charge. He's responsible and he's got to take responsibility for a large amount of the outcomes. But if you like, a long-term shift has been occurring. And the Floyd killing has taken away the kind of support for the police and his ideas about white nationalism and minorities are the problem and so on. That has brought that home, that's taken the rug from under his feet. The pandemic hit minorities and workers very, very hard, much harder than most other people, that's taken a big hit on that front, too. But also it's hit the economy, which is a second area he was going to give America back to the ordinary people, his people, and he's going to kind of strengthen the economy. That those two things together have actually removed the ground from under his feet and he's lost his two main kind of planks that he stood for. I think he's, therefore, floundering. The majority of public opinion in America thinks race and racism and police brutality are major problems. And the economy is in a terrible situation. And I think those two things combined have made the current position of President Trump rather desperate. It is a terrible but kind of perfect storm, too.
[Allen:] Inderjeet Parmar, thank you for your time.
[Parmar:] Thank you.
[Allen:] Coming up here, COVID-19 cases in the U.S., as we mentioned, are soaring. But other countries have managed to stifle the spread. We'll have details on the shocking comparison. Also, protests and coronavirus in Serbia, how the government's COVID- 19 response is having major consequences for the president there. We'll have live reports.