[Announcer:] CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson. In the
[Crossfire:] Should medical patients be allowed to use marijuana for therapy if a doctor approves? Some states say yes. The federal government says, no, there should be no exceptions in the war on drugs. What will the U.S. Supreme Court decide? And Jesse Jackson wants to know what happened on Election Day in Ohio. Was there fraud? Should there be a recount? We'll debate those questions and more with the Reverend Jackson. Today on CROSSFIRE.
[Announcer:] Live from the Georgia Washington University, Paul Begala and Robert Novak.
[Robert Novak, Co-host:] Medical marijuana? Doctors in California say, feeling bad? Smoke this joint, pal. Should that be legal? That question before the Supreme Court today.
[Paul Begala, Co-host:] Well, the Bush administration says that federal anti-drug legislation trumps state's laws. So much for the supposedly conservative support for states' rights. But you might be surprised at how many Ronald Reagan conservatives are supporting medical marijuana. We'll debate the issue soon, and then we'll check in with my old friend Reverend Jesse Jackson, talk to him about his efforts to have the result of the presidential election in Ohio potentially overturned. But, first, we begin, as we always do, with the best little political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert." President Bush today nominated Kellogg Cereal CEO Carlos Gutierrez to be the secretary of commerce in the president's second term. This is part of a wholesale shake up of Mr. Bush's economic team. Of course, Mr. Bush's economic policies have already turned the largest surplus in American history into the largest deficit in American history, and he's only just begun. Mr. Bush's new tax cut will put us $1.3 trillion deeper into debt and his planned to privatize Social Security will add yet another $2 trillion. That's trillion with a T. So, who's financing this debt anyway? Well, it turns out, in large measure, it's the People's Bank on China. That's in the People's Republic of China, better known as communist China. The Chinese communists are holding our debt and, therefore, holding our economic future in their hands. Bush's advisers says he aims to please the red states. I just didn't know they meant Red China.
[Novak:] You know, Paul, I think you might have had too much turkey. You kind of wandered around from subject to subject in that little thing, but I would hope you could say something nice about Carlos Gutierrez. He started off in with Kellogg as a truck driver, great American success story. And I would hope that perhaps you would be a little more positive as we go into this new year.
[Begala:] Here's something positive. He left the communists. Now Bush is turning our future over to the communists.
[Novak:] In his last days as secretary of state, Colin Powell is telling the world the U.S. won't stand for Russia rebuilding the old Soviet empire. Today, Secretary Powell told the president of Ukraine the U.S. will not tolerate succession of the eastern part of the country to link up with Russia. Earlier, the secretary of state turned thumbs down on a stolen election to put a stooge in power in Kiev as Russian President Vladimir Putin's man. Putin wants to make Russia a superpower again, starting by bringing back Ukraine. It would be nice to hear a little bit more from President Bush telling his old friend Vlad Putin that he just can't steal a whole country.
[Begala:] Just for a moment, when you were talking about stolen election and a stooge being put in power, I was having a 2000 flashback, but I understand now you're talking about Ukraine. And you make a very good point. Our president says he looked Putin in the eyes and that he's a good man. He looked into his soul, he said, which is a hell of an example of X-ray vision. Putin is using Bush as a stooge and the president should stand up to him. You're right. I mean, I just think that we're on the wrong course here. And maybe he'll listen to Colin Powell.
[Novak:] Well, I think we're on the right course. I would just like to see him back up Colin Powell a little bit more than he has so far.
[Begala:] Well, we'll see if he will. In other international news, two U.S. soldiers were killed on patrol in Baghdad today. A third American soldier was killed in a vehicle accident. This brings the total number of American troops killed in Iraq to 1,241. Also today, a car bomb exploded near Ramadi, killing at least six people. Insurgent attacks killed 11 more people over the weekend. Amidst all of this killing, the elections, which President Bush promised to occur in January, may be in doubt; 17 political parties have called for postponing the election. But Grand Ayatollah Sistani, leader of the majority Shiites in Iraq, opposes a postponement. And so Americans continue to die. Military retirees are effectively drafted back into service. Taxpayers are shelling out billions. And for what? To protect us from weapons of mass destruction that didn't exist? To bring stability to a country that is plainly in chaos and to bring democracy to country that doesn't seem very enthusiastic about elections?
[Novak:] You know, it wasn't the grand ayatollah who said you can't postpone the election. It was the Iraqi government. You know, Paul, I wish you would stop cheering on whenever there's bad news in Iraq, you're so happy. I'm going to tell you something that you might have forgotten. The election is over. You can't turn that election over. And you ought to get behind the United States troops there, who are trying to win that war.
[Begala:] I am behind the troops. I'm not behind this commander the chief. Who has them out there without a plan to win.
[Novak:] John John Kerry plans to file paperwork in week to establish a Friends of John Kerry Committee. Yes, he may still have some friends, despite his terrible presidential election. But the committee is just a signal that he has plans to run for another term in the Senate. Can you think of anything more depressing, after running for president, to go back to the Senate, where he belongs to the minority party and holds no leadership role in that party? Actually, John's interest in the Senate has always been as a place to hang his hat while he runs for president. Now nobody, except Teresa, wants another Kerry campaign for president. So John Kerry is contemplating spending the rest of his life in the Senate. How depressing.
[Begala:] Well, first off, it's inconsistent, it's incoherent, to say that Kerry only used the Senate to run for president. Now that he's no longer running for president, he is going to return to the Senate. The truth is, he was a fine senator. He will continue to be a fine senator. Other senators who ran for president and lost, like John McCain and Joe Lieberman, are doing a good job in there. I'm glad Senator Kerry wants to continue to serve his country.
[Novak:] What did he ever pass? Can you name a Kerry bill that ever passed?
[Begala:] Yes. Yes.
[Novak:] What?
[Begala:] Yes, there was a Kerry it's called the Kerry rider, which is on every foreign aid bill, that they have to help us to track down terrorist fund-raising.
[Novak:] Oh, Paul.
[Begala:] This was long before this is when President Bush was still selling tickets to baseball games. John Kerry was setting up antiterrorism efforts.
[Novak:] Where did you come up with that?
[Begala:] Well, that's no, that's the Kerry amendment.
[Novak:] The issue of pot instead of pills has reached the U.S. Supreme Court. Will the high court ban state laws which allow doctors to prescribe medical marijuana? And Jesse Jackson is still questioning election results in Ohio. The Reverend Jackson enters the CROSSFIRE later.
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[Begala:] Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. The Supreme Court heard arguments on medical marijuana today. At issue, does the federal government have the power to preempt state laws that allow citizens to use marijuana for medicinal purposes? Joining us to debate the issue, David Evans. He is the director of the Drug Free Schools Coalition. And Steve Fox of the Marijuana Policy Project. Gentlemen, thank you both.
[Novak:] Mr. Fox, let's be really candid about this. And I'm going to read you a quote over a year ago Dr. Robert L. DuPont, former director of the National Institute on Drug Abuse. He said quote "Medical marijuana is a hoax. It's a Trojan horse for the legalization movement" end quote. That's what you're really after, a total legalization of marijuana. This is all just a smokescreen, isn't it?
[Steve Fox, Marijuana Policy Project:] No, really, this is a smokescreen that the opponents of medical marijuana put up to try to distract attention from the real issue, which is that this is about the medical use of marijuana. The American Nurses Association, representing 2.6 million nurses, has endorsed medical marijuana. Thousands of doctors across the country are recommending it to their patients.
[Novak:] No medical association has endorsed it, correct?
[Fox:] The California Medical Association, the New York State Medical Society.
[Novak:] No national medical association has endorsed it.
[Fox:] Not yet, but it takes time to move up the ranks, but a number of states and we keep proceeding. And 10 states now have made it legal for their citizens to use it.
[Begala:] Well, Mr. Evans, first, thank you for joining us. Good to see you.
[David Evans, Director, Drug Free Schools Coalition:] Thank you for having me.
[Begala:] I am interested, I suppose, a little what sort of the professional propeller heads think about it. But I'm just a citizen. I'm just a person. And I think maybe people can relate to an individual story. The case before the Supreme Court involves a woman, I understand, from California named Angel Raich, who suffers from a variety of maladies, from scoliosis to tumors. And well, let me let's let her testify on her behalf. Here's Ms. Raich.
[Angel Raich, Medicinal Marijuana Advocate:] If it wasn't for cannabis, I really wouldn't be here today talking to you and fighting for my rights. And I feel very strongly that the justices should really think very hardly about the fact, on the facts that are before them, because, today, if they decide that I have the right to live, then I will be able to spend the rest of my life with my family. On the other hand, if they side against me, it means that they would be giving me a death sentence.
[Begala:] Why would you give her a death sentence?
[Evans:] Well, I'm not going to give anybody a death sentence. This case is about compassion. And it's not compassionate to give people medicine that's harmful to them. Now, Angel Raich has made a number of claims. And I would invite anybody to go on her Web site and read the affidavit that's in there, and you see if you find it credible. I didn't. I do personal injury law in my practice. She has listed many, many conditions for which she says marijuana is helpful for her, including grinding her teeth. I just don't find it credible. One of the ways that we...
[Begala:] But if her physician does, why is it our business?
[Evans:] I do personal injury law. Physicians we hire physicians as experts to evaluate people's cases and to look them over. And we subject it to cross-examination in court to see where the truth is. That hasn't been done in her case. But I think the real issue here is, what they're seeking to do is to override our national medical drug approval system, the FDA, that regulates medical drugs in the United States. If we leave it up to the states, the state legislatures or state initiatives, we're going to have chaos throughout our medical drug approval system in the United States.
[Novak:] Mr. Fox, can I ask you if you in favor of national legalization of marijuana for all purposes?
[Fox:] Well, I could answer that, but what you're trying to do, like most people opposed to medical marijuana do, is divert the issue.
[Novak:] You won't answer it?
[Fox:] Oh, sure. I think marijuana should be regulated, just like alcohol is. Right now, it's a situation... It's easier for did to get marijuana than alcohol, easier more kids smoking marijuana than smoking cigarettes, because we card. If we start carding kids, they won't smoke marijuana as much.
[Novak:] Let me read you a quote from a guy named Tom Constantine. He was President Clinton's director of drug enforcement, a New York state, former New York state cop, said Proposition 215 in California, Proposition 200 in Arizona, were drafted, financed and supported by legalization proponents such as yourself, using the compassionate pain argument as a guise for their drug legalization agenda. Isn't it clear what's happening here? You don't have to have unless you just fell off the marijuana truck, you would not miss that, would you?
[Fox:] I really don't understand. You're talking about individuals funding a referendum. I'm sure you supported the recall effort of Gray Davis in California.
[Novak:] Did I?
[Fox:] Maybe you didn't. I'm surprised you didn't. I didn't know you were a Gray Davis supporter.
[Novak:] No. I'm just a dispassionate reporter.
[Fox:] Anyway, people fund referenda and people vote on them. And that's the law. I hope you respect the law. And this actually works for people, and that's why these pass. I mean, what we say is, medical marijuana is really popular because it really works and it keeps passing. It had a greater percentage of the vote in Montana this past November than George Bush.
[Begala:] Isn't that interesting that well, I'm sorry. Go ahead, Mr. Evans?
[Evans:] Yes. The reason it passions in a state is because the people in favor of drug legalization put massive amounts of money into it. They put over $30 million...
[Fox:] ... one-fiftieth of the federal government.
[Evans:] They put over $30 million into the campaign in California. And they prey on people's compassion. It's not compassionate to use sick people to further your political agenda, which is what they're doing.
[Fox:] It's not compassionate to put them in jail.
[Evans:] There's no reason why anybody has to go in jail, why they have to use an illegal drug. There are medicines. In the brief that we submitted to the Supreme Court, we outlined all the medicines that are available. And if you want a marijuana- based medicine, there are already two that are approved by the FDA that you can use. And what we're saying to patients is, go through the FDA approval process; 100 years ago, before we had our drug approval system, people got up and swore that Dr. Brown's snake oil was helpful to them, OK? And varying impassioned. People honestly believe. Angel Raich may honestly believe that. But the compassionate thing is to use science to make these decisions.
[Fox:] If I may.
[Evans:] ... deal with the illnesses that they claim. Glaucoma Society, Cancer Society, all have voted against it.
[Fox:] No people, no one in history has overdosed from marijuana. No overdose death in history. The DEA studied this in 1988 I mean, 1988. Their administrative law judge said this is one of the safest therapeutically active substances available. It would be arbitrary and capricious to keep it from patients. More people have died from Vioxx than from marijuana.
[Novak:] I think it's baffling that we're talking about a medicine that you smoke. I think smoking is really bad for you. Why can't we just have a straight debate on whether marijuana is harmful and should continue to be outlawed without this smokescreen of medicine? I can't believe that you really seriously think that this is the way to administer a pain medicine, through smoking it.
[Fox:] Well, first of all, people are able to use vaporizers. People put it in their food. There are other methods. If the federal government got out of the way, we be able to do research like they're doing in England to see whether the delivery system could be done differently. But I would be happy any time to debate the harms of marijuana. And we can you can invite me back. We can debate the harms of marijuana vs. alcohol and we will talk about how harmful marijuana really is.
[Begala:] Well, Mr. Evans, one of the things that strikes me is how this issue has kind of turned topsy-turvy some of the usual political alliances. Dana Rohrabacher, who worked for President Ronald Reagan, is now a congressman from California, supported his state's medical marijuana initiative and in fact introduced federal legislation to protect it so that states could decide for themselves. And here is what Congressman Rohrabacher, no stronger conservative in the Congress he said, "Let's get over some of the stereotypes and hangovers from the '60s." Do you think he's right? Is that kind of what the real problem here is, is that there are some people who just think that this is just a drug from the '60s and can't be used for therapeutic purposes?
[Evans:] No. As a matter of fact, I think that marijuana, approved by the FDA, could be used for therapeutic purposes. That's what I'm advocating, run it through the drug approval process. I at one time was an advocate for medical marijuana. I was partially responsible for the American Bar Association's position in favor of medical marijuana. My mistake was that I was intellectually lazy and I didn't look at the other side. And once it got through the ABA, some people got ahold of me who were well informed and said, look, there's another side to this, and I changed my mind.
[Novak:] I think that will have to be the last word. Thank you very much, Mr. Evans, Mr. Fox. Almost a month after Election Day, Jesse Jackson wants a recount in Ohio. The election is still going. We'll talk about what he hopes to accomplish just ahead. And, next, Wolf Blitzer tells us what Osama bin Laden's right- hand man is saying in, yes, a new tape released today.
[Wolf Blitzer, Cnn Anchor:] I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. Coming up at the top of the hour, words of warning from an al Qaeda leader. We'll tell you about a new videotape from Osama bin Laden's right-hand man. Plus, tragedy in Texas, seven U.S. soldiers killed in the crash of an Army Black Hawk helicopter. And the U.S. Supreme Court takes up that contentious issue, medical marijuana. All those stories, plus Israel's vice prime minister, Ehud Olmert, he is here in the studio with us, only minutes away on "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS." Now back to
[Crossfire. Begala:] Thank you, Wolf. Well, it took John Kerry about one night to decide that election irregularities in Ohio were probably not severe enough to change the result of the vote count in that state or to give him the presidency. And so he conceded. But almost a month later, some people are wondering if Senator Kerry perhaps made a mistake. They're questioning the results in Ohio they're and asking state the Supreme Court to consider setting those results aside. One of the leaders of the effort, my friend the Reverend Jesse Jackson, he joins us now from Philadelphia. Good to see you again.
[Rev. Jesse Jackson, Founder, Rainbow/push Coalition:] How are you?
[Begala:] Good, sir.
[Jackson:] Very good.
[Novak:] Reverend Jackson, you know, I don't know if you noticed it, but Senator Kerry said, let's this, let's put this behind us. There's no way we can make up enough votes in Ohio to carry the state. And, you know, Jesse you may not have noticed it, but it was John Kerry was the candidate. You weren't the candidate. Why can't you go along with John on this?
[Jackson:] I fought for the right to vote before John Kerry ever decided to run for the presidency. The principle is bigger than him. The election is not certified 27 days later. The count continues. You know, before the election even started, there were 30,000 people they sought to eliminate, to say they had the wrong wait of paper, and the judge overruled that. Then the provisional ballots, there were 155,000 of them. They're not yet counted, because, in the spring of the year, if you were in the county, you could vote. They shifted it to, you could only vote in the precinct in November. But since they consolidated many precincts, it led to much confusion. There are also 92,000 unprocessed ballots. And so, 27 days later, the process continues. John Kerry conceded much too quickly.
[Begala:] Well, Reverend, but Kerry did lose Ohio reportedly by 136,483 votes. You don't really think that there's 137,000 more Kerry votes there, do you?
[Jackson:] Well, there are several things at work here. No. 1, Ellen Connally ran for Supreme Court in the same election. And, in the Cleveland area, Cuyahoga County, Kerry had 120,000 votes more than she had. Down in the area of Butler, Clermont and Warren, she had 190,000 votes more than Kerry had. That suggests that something went awry. And that's why we need a thorough investigation with forensic computer analysts to see, in fact, was there electronic vote tampering? All we know today is that the counting is not over. And why wouldn't it be three weeks later that you do not have a certified election?
[Novak:] Reverend Jackson, in 1960, the first election I covered, they stole the election from Richard Nixon in Illinois. In Texas, there was a difference of less than 12,000 votes. And they took care of those very nicely. But Nixon never protested. They Republicans never protested because, in the interests of the country, they didn't want to have put the country through something. You surely don't want some kind of a question of whether who won this election, when it's not 10,000 or 12,000 votes. It's, as Paul says, what, 136,000 votes.
[Jackson:] Well, we should be better 44 years later in the counting of an election. I mean, if we can protest an unfair election, a questionable one in Ukraine, why can't we have a good one here in our own country? The point is, there are court suits asking, A, that all ballots be counted. So far, Mr. Novak, all ballots have not been counted; 92,000 unprocessed ballots have not been counted; 155,000 provisional votes have not all yet been counted. And so to expect all votes to count is reasonable. Whether Kerry win or loses, let the winner win and the loser lose, but count all the votes. That's a reasonable democratic expectation.
[Begala:] Reverend Jesse Jackson, thanks very much. Sorry we didn't have any more time, Reverend. It's always good to see you again, my friend. Thank you very much. Well, next, we've got a bizarre story about a United States senator who, before he became a senator, actually worked as a roadie for a rock band and has apparently not forgotten his roots. Stay with us. Well, we have found a politician with a rather unusual resume. When the Canadian rock band, The Guess Who, ran into visa red tape ahead of an upcoming U.S. tour, guess who they turned to? Former rock 'n roll roadie turned U.S. senator, former Democrat turned Republican Norm Coleman. That's right. In what must seem like a past life,even before he was a Democrat, the Minnesota Republican was a roadie. He toured with the 1960s era band Ten Years After. No word on whether Senator Coleman was with them when they played Woodstock. And I guess the word is, if you remember Woodstock, you weren't there.
[Novak:] You know, it's one of things about Norm Coleman is it it turned him into a conservative, having to deal with all those kind of people. And it's a great it's a great thing for America.
[Begala:] He actually he was Al Gore's chairman one year and then turned around and was George Bush's chairman the next year, a very flexible guy. But I hope he helps out this rock band. And we love the Canadians. And we hope they come entertain us. From the left, I am Paul Begala. That's it for
[Crossfire. Novak:] From the right, I'm Robert Novak. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE. "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now.