[Daryn Kagan, Cnn Anchor:] "TV Guide" hitting news stands today with what it considers to be the 50 greatest shows of all time. Matt Roush is senior television critic for "TV Guide," and he is joining us live from New York. Matt, good morning.
[Matt Roush, Senior Television Critic, "tv Guide":] Good morning.
[Kagan:] This one has some talking points, let's just say.
[Roush:] It does, it does. Yes. Well, we argued in and among ourselves as well. It was not easy to come up with this list. It was fun to come up with the list...
[Kagan:] I bet so.
[Roush:] ...but it is not easy. We are all very passionate about our own favorite TV shows.
[Kagan:] Let's look at the top five. Number five, a surprise right there. The "Sopranos" coming at number five. That's the top drama on the list. Number four, an all time favorite that we still see in reruns, that's "All in the Family," of course, with Archie Bunker.
[Roush:] Changed
[Tv. Kagan:] Number three, "The Honeymooners," Jackie Gleason. One of our viewers wrote in saying that was one of his or her favorites of all time. OK, here comes the controversy. Number two number two, "I Love Lucy" at number two? And according to "TV Guide," the number one television show of all time, "Seinfeld." Matt, oh my goodness.
[Roush:] Shocker, huh?
[Kagan:] Can I be just a cynical television anchor for just one moment? I can I see the "TV Guide" people sitting in this meeting and saying, you know what, if we put "I Love Lucy" at the top of the list, no one does a story on this. But if we put "Seinfeld" and dis Lucy by putting her at number two, imagine the publicity we will get out of that.
[Roush:] Well, to be honest with you, for us to say that we love "Seinfeld" more than Lucy is a silly thing to say. I think what we are doing here is making an argument that the modern classics are every bit as worthy of consideration as the all time classics, and "I Love Lucy" is unparalleled in terms of all time classics. There is no question about it. But there is something about "Seinfeld." The list is also a list of innovation and it is a list full of original shows, and I don't think there is any show that came along that was more original than "Seinfeld." It came out of nowhere...
[Kagan:] Because it was about nothing.
[Roush:] Yes, and it was also it created a new kind of comedy. It isn't just situation comedy, it is behavioral comedy, where "Seinfeld" is concerned, and I think there is something so unique to the voice of Jerry Seinfeld and Larry David, who created the show, and I think we just want to make a case that it deserves to be acknowledged among the all-time classics.
[Kagan:] All right, well...
[Roush:] But to say we love it more than Lucy, I mean, that is just inviting all kinds of anger, you know?
[Kagan:] That is a tough sell. Exactly.
[Roush:] We love Lucy. Heavens.
[Kagan:] And I enjoy "Seinfeld" as much as the next fan, but I would challenge you to come up with a single episode that is as funny and will stand up to time as much as Vegameatavitamin, and the candy episode that we just saw, and also the episode where Lucy stomps the grapes. I mean, that is just to name three, that just came to my head.
[Roush:] Those are super classics, but I think there is going to be something very timeless as well about the "Seinfeld" episode where they are wandering around the parking garage, waiting to be seated in the Chinese restaurant. I don't how many times I have seen that episode and I still just absolutely bust a gut watching those characters squirm through these modern tortures that you go through living in New York, and New York being a character as well in the show. But I think that "Seinfeld" is going to stand the test of time. But, you know, "Lucy" is number two, "Honeymooners" number three, "All in the Family" number four, being a totally groundbreaking comedy. The list is very skewed toward comedy. More than half the shows on the list are comedies because we tend to watch them over an over again. They become part of our fabric, of our culture basically, and we love them all desperately.
[Kagan:] And the top the top drama of all time, you are calling the "Sopranos." That is a huge nod to cable television.
[Roush:] It is, and to HBO. I think that HBO, the creative freedom they give the people who produce shows for them, I think that also just the realism of the "Sopranos" is unprecedented. There is no compromise going on in the artistic vision happening on the "Sopranos." It doesn't have to have considerations for commercials, or for advertisers. It is just a pure expression of this guy's world view David Chase, and you know, we have to wait a year to get new episodes of the "Sopranos," and we hope that it is worth the wait. But what he has established so far, I mean, it is the "Godfather" of television, and maybe even better than that. So, it is a really great show.
[Kagan:] Now you explain how this worked. A bunch of you "TV Guide" people sat in a room and came up with this list.
[Roush:] Yes.
[Kagan:] It must have been really interesting to be in there.
[Roush:] Oh, yes. I am sure that some of us aren't even speaking to each other to a certain extent. It was so hard. I mean my heart is broken over some of the shows that weren't on the list either.
[Kagan:] Yes, what was missing for you what is missing for you on the list?
[Roush:] I'm really sorry "Northern Exposure" isn't on the list, because that was so original, and such a beloved show as well, and "Homicide" in terms of crime dramas. The second highest ranked series drama series is "Hill Street Blues" which again changed television, but I would love to see "Homicide" on the list as well. Andre Braugher as Frank Pembleton, one of the great characters of all time. And just the way that the crimes got under these people's skins on "Homicide," I love that show as well. But there is lots of great legal dramas. There is "Law and Order," and then there is "The Defenders" from the 60s. Without "The Defenders," you don't get "Law and Order." So, I think the list really encompasses all of the variety and range of television.
[Kagan:] And just real quickly, Matt OK, so it is one through 50. Just kind of flatter us a little bit. "CNN Live Today" was 51, we just missed the cut, right?
[Roush:] I guess so. And you know, if people disagree with the list, they can go on our own web side, TVGuide.com, vote on categories. There is a prime-time special on ABC May 13 that will reflect what people out there think of television as well.
[Kagan:] Excellent. You hear that, viewers? Help us out. Go on TVGuide.com, Give Leon and me a little support. "CNN Live Today," number 51, at least. We're number one. Matt Roush from "TV Guide." Really fun. A lot of folks writing in and have very passionate feelings about this. They will be checking out the list, no doubt.
[Roush:] Oh, that's great. Thanks, Daryn.
[Kagan:] Great to have you along here. TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com