[Cuomo:] All right. You know why we're in Paris. You know what happened a week ago today rocked French society, rocked the world, frankly, as a wake-up call about the depth and breadth about the war against ISIS, reverberations all over Europe and certainly in the United States. There is a major controversy going on there now about what to do against ISIS and what to do with these Syrian refugees. It's become a metaphor moment. These Syrian refugees have become the personification of the risk for many Americans over 53 percent, who now say they shouldn't be allowed to enter the country. Certainly a plurality of governors in the country is saying the same, largely Republican, but reflecting popular concerns. Let's have this discussion. Mike Rogers, CNN national security commentator and also former chair of the House Intelligence Committee. Mike, you know this situation very well. You've served as a mentor for me and others on it. Let's have the discussion. You make the points of fact and policy that you believe encouraged this position of keeping the refugees out, and I'll give what are the pushback-points on that. Ignore these sirens going by now. It's part of the new normal here in and around Paris. Police van going by, they use their sirens often here, does not mean anything urgent in particular. Mike, please, go ahead. What's the case?
[Mike Rogers, Cnn National Security Commentator:] A couple of things, Chris, and so first of all, you have to take race and religion out it. I think the president did a disservice when he tried to put in race and religion, into this debate. You know, a few years ago, it was that we had some very serious national security concerns about the porous border in the south. Some 200,000, they would call them in the department other than Mexicans were coming across that border. And any talk trying to say is there a way we can improve on that was you just don't like people of color. That's ridiculous. This is a national security issue. We're finding that out with the Syrians trying to use our southern border to get in, same with this program. The problem is a normal
[Cuomo:] Mike, let's take it point by point.
[Rogers:] You have the ability to check data bases in Eastern Syria and Western Iraq and other places. You don't have that. So you need to have an honest debate about it. They don't have access to that information about those individuals, and the process of which they go through doesn't have access to that information either. So you're taking a bit of a risk and then you have this other problem, Chris, with people, we know that they've said they're going to infiltrate these Syrian refugee populations and they have successfully done that. So you ought to step back, work with the governors about a process that says, all right, we have concerns. We don't have the resources to police the problem that happens. How do we do this in a better way? The president didn't do that. He just said, well, you don't like people of color, therefore, I'm right, you're wrong. That's the wrong way to approach this and we'll never get to a common sense answer if we continue to have this fight.
[Cuomo:] All right. OK, Mike, you put a lot out there. Give you the points of push back and you answer them in some order, one, Syrians trying to attack the southern border of the U.S. You are talking about one group of guys that have been investigated from Honduras right now, not a flood. In terms of what we know about Syrian refugees, you know the facts on it. You know, the breakdown is that it's largely male, female, 5050. This isn't some warrior class that we're letting in. There have been almost no arrests in any relevant terrorism context of Syrian refugees. They've been somewhat become the personification of fear for Republican governors. You know, legally, our governor has not a scratch of right to say that they won't take a refugee. It's a federal situation. Maybe if they negotiated some type of right or privilege with their Medicaid contract with the federal government, they have funding leverage but they can't say no. But ultimately, yes, they should be negotiated. My point to you is how do you justify shunning an entire group of people without any factual basis for them as a threat? Maybe one of the guys here in these last attacks in Paris went through this refugee route as a fake Syrian, maybe one. We don't even have that substantiated yet. Where's the substation of the threat?
[Rogers:] Well, I can tell you this, Chris, and this is what bothers me most about this is it's either you are all in or you're all out, and it's fear-mongering. It's not. I think the governors have a point. Can you verify that these people don't have these problems? By the way, we think, you know, the numbers are in the thousands that they think have infiltrated into Europe, thousands. So intelligence shows that. Others show us that. The FBI director came out and said, no, we can't really guarantee that these folks aren't trying to use this system to infiltrate
[Cuomo:] If you want to scare them
[Rogers:] here's the problem. The president created this problem
[Cuomo:] Go ahead.
[Rogers:] You're either with me or some kind of bigot or racist. That is so non-productive. Why don't you bring those governors in, go through a process. If they need extra help on security, offer it. That never happened. He looks for this to be divisive issue and so it leaves the governors in my mind really no better place to go and it makes everybody look bad. I think there's a way to go through this
[Cuomo:] Look, there is no question
[Rogers:] They cannot. This is really important. They cannot verify that those folks have not been infiltrated because the intelligence services and law enforcement know that they have in the past. That's the problem. Even the Kentucky case where the Iraqis got in and were collecting weapons and looking to do terrorist act as a result a few years ago.
[Cuomo:] Right.
[Rogers:] With the refugee Iraqi refugee program. So we know it has happened. Not a notion that it's never happened. It has happened. That's what I think the governors are basing their decisions on, I think.
[Cuomo:] It's happened with Iraqis. It's never happened with Syrians. We've been taking in Syrians for years as you know, Mike. You know all this. I don't mean to condescend. You've taught me much of this. It's happened with Iraqis. It has not happened with Syrians and certainly President Obama would take exception how you're framing his perspective on this, but that's for him to defend. If you want to scare people about this, if that's what's going on here and the Syrians are scary because we can't vet them completely as Comey said, one, we are talking about proving the non-existence of facts. He's saying, well, if they are not making a mark on the system I can't tell there's anything wrong with them, well, that's a presumption that if there's no mark on somebody, there still may be something wrong with them. And then compare it to the vetting of every other immigrant population. These refugees, Mike, as you know, go through layers of vetting that no other immigrant population. These refugees go through layers of vetting no other part of the population undergoes and don't you think that should be part of the calculus before you close off an entire group of refugees who are running for their lives.
[Rogers:] It should be part of the calculus absolutely. I don't think anyone is saying it is not, but when you say it
[Cuomo:] But it isn't.
[Rogers:] You are saying no refugee has been infiltrated. Certainly to the United States, right, at least that we know of. But they have in other places including Europe. That is the problem. So we all have to argue about the same facts. They have infiltrated refugee population. They are using all of their systems to infiltrate and then by the way top out of that system. They can get here under one system by fake passports, fake ids. You can get on the deep web today and buy Syrian international driver's license, Syrian driver's license, Greek passports, Greek driver's license, it is so readily available. And by the way, here is the scary part and this is why I think people are a little nervous about the security side. Not who they are or what their religion is. It is the fact that we have millions of documents, especially passport documents and travel documents that have gone missing, millions over time. So people worry about that. That's why you're finding British passports showing up in places where you wouldn't think that they would show up meaning the terrorist getting a hold of it. So we have this problem. Maybe if we take all our energy instead of trying to fight with each other about, you know, is somebody being mean. This is where compassion meets reality and yes, we should try to help the refugee population. First of all, we should have done something in Syria and still should do something in Syria. That is what's causing the refugee population. That's what causing it. Inaction there is causing this problem here. So let's deal with that and then try to deal with this security problem, Chris, where we know that they have infiltrated refugee streams and are telling us they are going to do more. That is the problem.
[Cuomo:] All right, Mike Rogers, thank you very much for laying out that part of the case. Appreciate the perspective as always. We're going to take a quick break. We are following an emergency situation in Mali right now. Gunmen took control of a hotel, 160 people or more were inside. We do hear maybe 80 have been freed, but that means 80 may still be inside. We have details. Stay with CNN.