[Announcer:] From the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, this is AMERICAN MORNING with Bill Hemmer and Soledad O'Brien.
[Bill Hemmer, Cnn Anchor:] Good morning, everybody. Soledad is out on vacation. Heidi Collins with us here in New York good morning again to you.
[Heidi Collins, Cnn Anchor:] Good morning.
[Hemmer:] We thought it was going to be a busy day and it is. We start with breaking news this hour from the presidential campaign. As we mentioned about 15 minutes ago, John Kerry has made his selection for a running mate. North Carolina Senator John Edwards will be the other name on the ticket. Word coming from sources close to the campaign. The official word said to come from John Kerry himself. We are told he was adamant that he wanted to make this decision public after he announces to about a million subscribers online to his Web site. We expect the announcement in one hour from now in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. And that's where we find Joe Johns there this morning Joe, good morning there.
[Joe Johns, Cnn Correspondent:] Good morning, Bill. This is Market Square in Pittsburgh. And if you want to take a look right now, a crowd is already gathering, waiting now what for what is apparently going to be an announcement of John Edwards as the vice presidential running mate for John Kerry. Of course, this would be a meteoric rise for this first term senator from North Carolina very telegenic, very good looking. John Edwards, of course, is the person who won the South Carolina primary. He will be hit almost immediately with charges that he is green, that he is not ready, that he is inexperienced. He, of course, has also clashed with John Kerry in the primaries. Nonetheless, John Edwards has also been a very vigorous campaigner for John Kerry, appearing just yesterday in Boston at two fund raiser for John Kerry. Now, we're told by CNN producer Steve Turnham that so far, Edwards has been going about his daily affairs, still at his house in Washington, D.C., preparing his kids to go off today. Apparently they would normally go to summer camp at this time. No clear word on what happens yet. We're also told by Steve Turnham, our producer there, that right now there is no sign of Secret Service at the house Bill, back to you.
[Hemmer:] Joe, is there any word rippling through that crowd there where you are about John Edwards?
[Johns:] Not really. I really haven't had an opportunity to talk to people. Of course, I've talked to people over the past couple days about John Edwards. There is concern that he's green, but also, he's very much considered a crowd pleaser, some, one person a lot of people like a lot just by the way he looks, by the way he sounds. Meanwhile, you have to say that the corporate community is already making noises that it will oppose him vigorously because of his record as a trial lawyer. They're very much seen as an enemy of a lot of corporate America Bill.
[Hemmer:] All right, Joe, thanks. Stand by there. Joe Johns in Pittsburgh. More news in a minute from there. Now Heidi.
[Collins:] Dana Bash standing by for us in our bureau in Washington, D.C. with the very latest coming to us from that side of the fence hey, Dana.
[Dana Bash, Cnn Correspondent:] Hi, Heidi. Well, last time we spoke, we weren't sure if Senator Kerry had spoken to John Edwards and officially offered him the job of being his running mate. And now we're told from Democratic sources that Senator Kerry has, in fact, spoken with Senator Edwards and that, we're told, he accepted the job offer to be his number two, his running mate on the Democratic ticket. This is something that we were told would happen at this hour, that Senator Kerry would make the call first to his pick. And then he would start to call other people who have been considered, who have gone through a very rigorous process of sending lots of different papers, documents, anything and everything that the campaign requested. Senator Kerry will be calling them to thank them and also likely to be asking for their support in the future. Now, we are told that Senator Edwards shortly will be picked up by members of Senator Kerry's staff and will be taken to Pittsburgh. There, the two will hook up. However, it's important to note that Senator Kerry will be making his initial first public statement about his choice of Senator Edwards solo. He'll be doing that at a rally in Pittsburgh in about an hour from now. He wanted to try to make this a surprise, try to make this secret until he got out there and did it himself. That's sort of hard to do in today's day and age. But certainly Senator Kerry and his team were trying to do this a little bit differently than they have done in the past, and certainly not having the candidate and his running mate side by side when we first hear about the two is something that's unique. Now, what's also important to point out, that the Republicans were ready for this. They were ready for whomever Senator Kerry picked, as Joe Johns was pointing out. Republicans, the Bush campaign, the second this was reported, put out a release, initially targeted for some of their supporters, Republican supporters. But they sent it to the press, going through some of the things that they want Republicans to be talking about, about John Edwards, saying that he represents old, the old Democratic ways, not the mainstream America. This is the beginning of some a steady stream of attacks that we're going to hear from Republicans. The Bush campaign also just sent to reporters the script of an advertisement that they are going to put on the air today of President Bush and John McCain, the Republican from Arizona. John McCain talking about how he supports President Bush in this election year. The idea here is that the Bush campaign is trying to suggest that John Kerry had originally wanted the Republican, John McCain, as his running mate and that didn't happen. Their point, they're trying to say that John Edwards was John Kerry's second choice. But this is all certainly just the beginning. We are going to see John Kerry in about an hour making his official choice. And, again, just to recap, John Kerry, we are told, did call and officially offer the job to John Edwards and he has accepted Heidi.
[Collins:] And, Dana, it is certainly just the start of things. But, you know, I remember looking at quite a few polls a little while back, understanding the Republican side and who John Kerry would choose who they would be most afraid of for his vice presidential candidate. And John Edwards was that guy. It will be interesting to see what their reaction is later on today.
[Bash:] Well, I was talking to some Bush campaign aides yesterday, just about that, about, you know, just trying to get at who they are most afraid of and whether it is John Edwards. And, you know, they certainly were prepared for a lot of different types of people. And, frankly, no matter who John Kerry chose, they were ready to make some kind of argument targeting him, targeting whichever the candidate whomever the candidate is as somebody who's not right for America. John Edwards certainly is somebody they saw during the primaries as a candidate who could perhaps electrify a crowd, somebody who has charm and appeal. The question is whether or not they can sort of try to define him before America sort of understands who he is, the way they try to do for Senator Kerry. But the campaign line of the Bush campaign is that they don't believe that the V.P. pick makes a difference in the end.
[Collins:] All right, we'll wait to hear more on that today. Dana Bash, thanks so much.
[Hemmer:] On November 2, Heidi, as we await the ultimate vote many months from now, if the polls are right, this country is still divided in half, 50-50. And what many are suggesting this middle percentage, between 6 to 10 percent, that is still undecided and may be undecided even weeks or even days before the election is held. John Edwards showed in Iowa, and again in New Hampshire, that he could draw a crowd and perhaps John Kerry is going for that as his strategy, as well. Let's bring Jeff Greenfield back in to comment on that. We saw it in Iowa. People were absolutely stunned the week before these caucuses how many people were showing up to listen to what John Edwards had to say.
[Jeff Greenfield, Cnn Correspondent:] I was in Des Moines when he unveiled the "Two Americas" speech. And while the hundredth time you heard it you wanted to hear something else, it was really one of the most effective political arguments that I've heard in recent years. This, look, as we all said, this guy did not amass a personal fortune appealing to juries in an unsuccessful way. He knows how to make a case. There's another part about this pick that I think may have been as critical as anything else. People always say elections are about the future versus the past. And Dick Gephardt, who has been in Congress since 1976, has been part of the Democratic leadership for 15 years, many assets scrupulously honest, not a breath of scandal ever about him, loved by organized labor, but loved by the old labor, by the industrial unions, the steelworkers, the auto workers, the Teamsters. The newer unions endorsed Howard Dean, that is, the service unions. I think in picking a 51-year-old first term senator over a 63- year-old 28 year veteran of the House of Representatives, Kerry was also looking to the idea of a more future oriented kind of candidate.
[Hemmer:] I think the other thing we saw in Iowa, we saw John Edwards become a better politician through that process. It can be grueling. And then he took that into New Hampshire and honed his skills one better.
[Greenfield:] New Hampshire actually Jack made this point of how close Edwards came to being the nominee and New Hampshire was the place where he did not click. He got a late start. He was overshadowed by Wes Clark, to some extent; by the Dean what remained of the Dean candidacy. He came roaring out of Iowa with a strong second place finish...
[Hemmer:] Yes, he did.
[Greenfield:] ... and New Hampshire was the place where he stumbled. But then he recovered again. In Wisconsin, he almost beat Kerry. He is a very effective campaigner. And whether or not the Bush campaign can paint him as this kind of, this trial lawyer who's a bit of a, you know, not a straight on guy lawyers are not the most popular profession in America, a little too green, etc., we'll see.
[Hemmer:] We are three weeks away from Boston, when the Democrats gather there for the national convention. There are some within the Bush campaign that are saying that they could be behind as many as 15 points when the Democrats come out of Boston. Is that a stretch?
[Greenfield:] Well, there's I mean, it's a fine old political tradition to low ball your expectations, you know? On the other hand, there was a point in 1988 when Dukakis was leading Bush by almost that much. It's just and I know I sound like a broken record here...
[Hemmer:] That's OK. You're allowed to.
[Greenfield:] These polls are writ they're not even written in sand. They're writ in water. Yes, they could have a 15 point deficit. But it doesn't mean anything.
[Hemmer:] The other thing we hear is that John Kerry is going to make this announcement on his own, by himself, essentially solo, at that rally at Market Square in Pittsburgh. Does that tell you anything about how he's running his campaign?
[Greenfield:] Well, remember, John Kerry and John Edwards were both finalists in the Gore veep stakes four years ago. And Kerry is known to have felt that the way it was done was very, a little bit hurtful to both of those people, that he wanted to keep this close to the vest to prevent any embarrassment. It's not totally unprecedented. In 1980, Ronald Reagan went to the floor of the Republican convention in the middle of that Jerry Ford as vice president hoopla and announced that he was picking George Herbert Walker Bush. But it is unusual. I mean, generally I think this is, in part, by the way, to extend the coverage. You announce it and then you show up with the vice presidential choice and then that's another day on the cable networks.
[Hemmer:] Well, fair to say that John Kerry has not gotten this amount of publicity during his campaign until now, until the momentum really started building toward this announcement and ultimately the decision that we know now.
[Greenfield:] Right. This is his this is the biggest choice that he has to make as, you know, when you're not the incumbent president, how do people judge you as a potential president? This is one of the ways. We saw what happened to George McGovern with Tom Eagleton. Geraldine Ferraro's family financials turned out to be a big embarrassment for Walter Mondale. Dan Quayle's stumbling start in '88 was not helpful to George Bush. So you can, you know, you can pick a vice president and then 48 hours later say what was I thinking of?
[Hemmer:] Thanks, Jeff. OK, stand by here Heidi.
[Collins:] We have another Jeff joining us. Jeffrey Toobin is going to talk a little bit about John Edwards and his legal career. You know, when he first started out, he said that he wanted to protect innocent people from blind justice.
[Jeffrey Toobin, Cnn Legal Analyst:] Well, he has, you know, he belongs to perhaps the least popular segment of the least popular industry in America. He was a personal injury lawyer in the legal profession. What's significant is he's gone through the scrutiny of a presidential candidate already and he, if he had embarrassing cases, if he had been soliciting clients in a bad way, if he had, you know, represented a woman who sued McDonald's for spilling coffee on, you know, spilling hot coffee, that we would that would be known by now.
[Collins:] Sure.
[Toobin:] He had a remarkably clean career for a personal injury lawyer. He had cases where the plaintiffs were very sympathetic, where there really were situations where people had been hurt by the system and got enormous amounts of money. So I think the fact that he has been through the rough and tumble of his own presidential candidacy, I think insulates him from real embarrassment surfacing at the last minute.
[Collins:] So he took on his clients very carefully and chose those cases carefully.
[Toobin:] He did. He did not, he was not a lot of personal injury lawyers work in terms of volume. They churn through a lot of cases, make a lot of settlements. The way Edwards defined his career was taking a relatively few cases that were big money cases. He made an enormous amount of money, even in the United States Senate, which has plenty of millionaires. He's one of the wealthier members of the Senate. He financed his long shot candidacy against Lauch Faircloth in North Carolina almost entirely, at least at first, on his own. But, you know, he has done it in a way that is unlikely to come back to embarrass him.
[Collins:] Yes. What about his demeanor in court? I mean we've been talking quite a bit throughout this process about how he really became an incredible stumper, if you will.
[Toobin:] You know...
[Collins:] I mean he was good in the courtroom, as well.
[Toobin:] Well, the thing about being a trial lawyer is you have to appeal to jurors, who are ordinary people like voters. And he's very good at it. You know, his he wrote his autobiography earlier in this year, called, I think, "Four Trials," which is about four of his cases. You know, the idea of identifying with the little guy, of being the advocate for the voiceless against the, you know, big companies or big defendants, that's how he has styled himself as a candidate. And, you know, it worked well enough to finish second in the Democratic primaries. You know, we'll see how it works on a national stage.
[Collins:] Yes, the speaking in the courtroom is probably going to help him a lot with the debate process, I bet, too.
[Toobin:] That will be terrifically understated. I know Jeff Greenfield earlier mentioned the debates. There are few greater contrasts in styles than Dick Cheney and John Edwards.
[Collins:] This is true.
[Toobin:] I mean, you know, John Edwards, silver tongued courtroom orator, you know, very, you know slick, in the good sense of the word you know, someone who really express himself very well against Dick Cheney, who is a sort of gruff businessman, a no nonsense type. I think one of the surprises of the 2000 campaign was the relatively genteel debate between Joe Lieberman and Dick Cheney.
[Collins:] Right. Very nice.
[Toobin:] I don't think that's going to happen this time.
[Collins:] Fireworks?
[Toobin:] I think John Edwards is really going to go after him in his polite way, but it will be a much sharper contrast than the vice presidential debate four years ago.
[Collins:] Interesting. Yes?
[Hemmer:] You're shaking your head yes.
[Greenfield:] Oh, yes. I don't remember a time where I, just as a pure spectator, that I'm probably looking forward to that debate as much, if not more, than the presidential debate, because it's very easy to see how you could go into a debate with Dick Cheney and think well, you know, he's not effective, he doesn't he is this kind of gruff guy, and absolutely have your head handed to you, especially if you're too eager, look too young, look too green and Dick Cheney is kind of like Yoda, you know, just sitting there with the wisdom of the ages saying yes, young man, I know that you'd like this job, but you just don't know enough. But you'd also have to figure out that John Edwards, being a reasonably effective and successful advocate, has probably already begun to figure this out.
[Collins:] And he might get sworn at.
[Toobin:] And the contrast, to me, that I think is so interesting between Edwards, who really has almost no national experience I mean who among vice presidential candidates has been a major party candidate with less experience on the national stage than John Edwards? I can't I mean Dan Quayle had more.
[Greenfield:] Yes.
[Hemmer:] A couple of numbers here I'm going to show four our viewers here. Edwards as Kerry's running mate. This is some of the numbers we talked about last hour. Asked on whether or not you're enthusiastic or satisfied, on the screen, we can show you 24 percent say yes on the enthusiasm, 48 percent satisfied. That's what got us to that 72 percent figure that we showed you last hour. Also, as a running mate, positive impressions, 72 percent say yes. And we talked earlier, Jeff, about well, this Jeff, Jeff number one. You'll be Jeff number two.
[Toobin:] I'll defer to the senior Jeff.
[Hemmer:] Not a problem. We talked earlier about if he doesn't go with John Edwards, then, it that a disappointment to the Democratic faithful? It was almost building in that sense.
[Greenfield:] It is, because he was the one candidate look, Dick Gephardt had a lifetime of service, but went out early in fourth place in Iowa, a place that he'd won in 1988. By the way, the answer to Mr. Toobin's question...
[Hemmer:] Is?
[Greenfield:] Is Spiro Agnew was picked as the first term governor of Maryland. I think history says that that didn't work out so well. So maybe that's not maybe that's not encouraging.
[Hemmer:] Well, here's what we understand in case you're just joining us. To our viewers at home, we do anticipate a rally at Market Square in downtown Pittsburgh set to go off at 9:00 a.m. Eastern, which, by the clock here, is 43 minutes away. Senator Kerry's choice expected to be announced at the rally. And CNN has learned that choice will be Senator John Edwards from North Carolina. We're also told that Senator Kerry is adamant that he wants to be the one who makes the announcement, rather than it being leaked through the media. Perhaps that is in the past at this point, based on what CNN is confirming and reporting. The announcement set to come first, though, by way of the Internet. The Kerry campaign has done very diligent work in trying to establish this large bank of subscribers to the John Kerry Web site. They say they have over a million. And they are the ones who will be notified first. Interestingly enough, in a rather unusual move, John Edwards is not expected, at least at last check two hours ago, not expected to be in Pittsburgh for this rally. But we were also told there would be some sort of surprise or unique wrinkle during this announcement, as well. Put speculation behind us. We have no idea what that is. But if you're talking about a computer connection, I don't know, maybe there's some sort of Internet linkup. We will soon find out at 9:00 a.m. Eastern time.
[Greenfield:] I'm still wrestling with long distance. You've got the wrong guy.
[Collins:] I can go with that.
[Hemmer:] That was the Jeff number two. Well, listen, we have been told about this, that announcement, and CNN confirmed it again about 35 minutes ago. And I think this debate issue is something that could be quite critical because the American public will center in on this election campaign largely at the end of September and through the month of October. And those debates will be most important. And as a voter, are you going for the youth and enthusiasm and promise of a John Edwards or do you go with the experience of a man like Dick Cheney?
[Greenfield:] When, I think when people sit down and watch a debate, when voters do this, they are not sitting there with a score card from the League of Women Voters or any other interest group, chalking up who wins on points. They come away with a general impression of who is the who are they more comfortable with as a potential leader or, in this case, a potential prospective leader, that is, a running mate. You know, I have to say that while this is an important decision, the relative importance, as opposed to spectator inference, of a Cheney-Edwards debate, between a Bush-Kerry debate is like this. I mean people are still going to judge overwhelming on who the who they feel comfortable with as president. But I'd have to say just this Mr. Toobin set it up perfectly. This is a contrast election which we haven't seen in a very long time.
[Toobin:] And what makes it, I think, even more interesting is the enormous influence Cheney has had as vice president. You know, the oftentimes the vice presidential debates aren't that important because the vice presidents aren't that important. Whatever you think of the Bush presidency, Dick Cheney is so intimately involved in and responsible for it, John Kerry's and John Edwards' critique of Cheney's role, you know, will, I think, have more influence because Cheney has had so much more influence.
[Greenfield:] I can tell you, Bill, what the Republicans are dreaming of, OK?
[Hemmer:] Yes.
[Greenfield:] They are dreaming of the 1988 vice presidential debate, where the older, stately Senator Lloyd Bentsen took on this young, eager Dan Quayle I don't think he was 50 years old at the time and with that one famous line, you know, "you're no John Kennedy," reduced Dan Quayle to a guy, as is often said, like a deer caught in the headlights. They want a debate where people come away saying this guy, Edwards, is slick and fast talking, but he's not up to it. He doesn't have the weight. And, of course, the Democrats are looking toward a debate where Edwards just takes this calm, statesmanlike Cheney and reveals him to be something else.
[Hemmer:] Yes. To Jeff number two, I want to thank you for that. We're going to bring Jack in here in a moment here and get to some e-mails. And as we do that, I do want to point out, rather interesting, the earliest Democratic V.P. announcement to date, so far as we can tell, in recent history. If you go back many years, Al Gore made his decision seven days before that convention. Michael Dukakis did it six days before, Bill Clinton four days. We're 20 days away from Boston. I'm not quite sure about the significance there, but one has to wonder how long can you stretch out this decision? Granted, it's brought, you know, a lot of publicity on the national stage. We're all talking about it today. Somewhat of a made for TV event, I think one could argue.
[Greenfield:] I think in an era of not just 24 hour cable news, but the Internet, that the entire political press corps has turned into a bunch of children in the back seat of a car yelling as you pull out of the driveway, "Are we there yet?" I think the impatience factor of this, we've been talking about this vice presidential choice since Kerry wrapped up the nomination in March.
[Hemmer:] Yes.
[Greenfield:] And maybe he just felt, you know, I can't take any more days of it, let's just do it, have a three day party right after the Fourth of July when people are back at work and have a good run-up to the convention.
[Hemmer:] Right.
[Collins:] All right, Jeff, we are getting a little bit more now from the White House. We're going to get some of the reaction there to all of this news. We have Suzanne Malveaux standing by with that good morning, Suzanne. What are they saying?
[Suzanne Malveaux, Cnn White House Correspondent:] Well, this is coming from the Bush-Cheney campaign, not directly from the White House. But, of course, they were ready for this moment. They were shooting off e-mails, not only to their supporters, but also to the press and talking points. One of them that we got here, of course, is outlining the particulars of this ad. It is called First Choice. We have the script for this. And essentially what it shows it highlights is that they say the first choice for Kerry, of course, was Republican Senator John McCain and that he was the one, initially, who they were trying to court to be a part of this bipartisan ticket. He is a maverick. He is a moderate. He is one who attracts many of the swing voters. And essentially the message is is that he's with our guy. So that is something they didn't want voters to remember. The script that we have here, it is from the it was just a couple weeks ago in Nevada. This is where Senator McCain was actually introducing President Bush when he went on the campaign trail with him. This shortly after he rejected Kerry's overtures to be his running mate. It goes on to say Senator McCain saying it's a big thing, this war, and it's a fight between right and wrong, good and evil, and should our enemies acquire for their arsenal the chemical, biological and nuclear weapons they seek, this war will become an even bigger thing. He goes on to say it will become a fight for our survival, talks about America being under attack and then goes on to say that it is the greatest test of our generation that he has led with moral clarity and firm resolve. He has not wavered, he has not flinched from the hard choices. He was determined and remains determined to make this world a better, safer and freer place. And it goes on to introduce President Bush. So the message here, of course, and from that campaign is, look, we believe that Edwards is a flip-flop decision, it's a second choice and the first choice here, the one that many voters, they believe, are behind, is standing with President Bush.
[Collins:] All right, Suzanne Malveaux, thanks so much for that, coming from the White House today. And now Jack Cafferty is back on the couch with us today. You've been getting some e-mails about this, I bet, huh?
[Jack Cafferty, Cnn Anchor:] Yes, a lot of them since the news broke. We've been asking what does an Edwards pick for Senator Kerry. Charlie writes this: "Kerry bad-mouthed Edwards like a dog not very long ago. Let's dig up Kerry's problems with Edwards before and why now those problems no longer seem to exist. Did Edwards get retrained or is Edwards a flip-flopper?" From North Carolina we get this: "It may not affect most people's vote, but it'll matter to me. I personally wanted Edwards for president, but a Kerry-Edwards ticket would be my vote. Edwards seems to sincerely care about poor people and I feel that he'll bring a lot to the ticket. Kerry needs John Edwards to win." Tom in Lexington, Kentucky writes: "As others have said, the selection is of utmost importance. A potential president's decision on his V.P. will come to light when the V.P. candidates are compared to each other. Can you imagine John Edwards, an accomplished trial lawyer, debating Dick Cheney? Get ready for heart attack number five." That's cruel, Tom. Shame on you. And finally, this nut case who has no life in Japan, my friend Dave, writes: "A running mate needs to be less charismatic than the presidential candidate, which limits Mr. Kerry's choice to either Loren Greene or a ficus. My money is on the dead Canadian actor. A ficus can be surprisingly charismatic."
[Collins:] Ouch.
[Hemmer:] Thank you, Jack.
[Cafferty:] That was fun.
[Hemmer:] How much consideration was given to the personality of John Edwards possibly overshadowing John Kerry?
[Greenfield:] Well, you know, if you really want to be a little bit Machiavellian about it, you can think that maybe Kerry realized people are saying Edwards is more charismatic than he is and it's a sign of self-confidence that you put a more charismatic guy on the ticket. There's a phrase in politics, the so-called kangaroo ticket, where the bottom half is heavier than the top half. I don't think this applies because of experience. But you can look at it that way. It's like when people praise a man who likes to surround himself with strong women. You've got to be self-confident to do that. If you have, if you went out and picked a guy who was duller than you are, that doesn't say much about your own sense of who you are. I think Kerry's campaign is trying to sell himself on strength, on good judgment, on experience. And they'll let Edwards stir up the cauldron.
[Hemmer:] John King is reporting for the White House. The phone call with Edwards well over by now. We're told he readily accepted that offer. The campaign talking points already with one headline out: "Kerry-Edwards, a new team for a new America." Also, on that same talking point, they call Edwards a "proven leader and a fighter for the American people." This from the Kerry campaign. They note that he's the son of a mill worker, that he mentions almost at the outset of every speech he ever gives on the stump. The campaign readily admits, also, that they expect the Republicans to focus on Edwards' work as a prominent trial lawyer. That from John King, working the story at the White House for us. Let's get a break. CNN has confirmed now, John Edwards will be announced here at this rally in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, 35 minutes away. Senator John Kerry is set to make that announcement. We are told he will do that by himself. Whether that turns out that way, we all wait to see. Let's get a break here. A busy Tuesday morning on AMERICAN MORNING. More in a moment.