[Baldwin:] I do want to get along to this one, because we have been talking a lot about, look, if you get in a plane, you need to pay attention. The headlines are enough to frighten anyone who is planning to travel by plane, air traffic controllers falling asleep when they should be guiding planes in for a landing. Just this week, a controller at Seattle's Boeing Field was fired for allegedly falling asleep on the job, not just once, but two different times this year. So what should be done to keep controllers awake and alert so they can help keep you safe? We've heard recommendations from sleep experts, the controllers union, and the FAA, the Federal Aviation Administration, but we haven't really heard from an actual air traffic controller, until now. I want to welcome Dean Iacopelli, he's an air traffic control specialist and he guides flights heading into and out of a pretty busy area, the New York metropolitan area. Dean, good to have you on.
[Dean Iacopelli, Air Traffic Control Specialist:] Thank you.
[Baldwin:] I want to begin with, have you ever worked overnights, first of all?
[Iacopelli:] I have. Yes, I have. I have worked midnight shifts many times.
[Baldwin:] OK, so you've worked the midnight shift. Help us understand what it's like inside the tower. Let's say it's 2:00 in the morning, you know, I don't know if you're looking at a lot of monitors. Is it difficult to stay awake or no?
[Iacopelli:] You know, just to be clear, where I work, I'm not actually inside a tower. I'm in a radar room and it's dark and it's quiet. And you know, when you get to a certain point, particularly in New York between, say, 2:00 a.m. and 5:00 a.m., there's not a lot going on. You have the occasional arrival or departure, a plane taking off or landing. But for the most part, you're there waiting for an airplane to call you or to talk to an adjacent facility.
[Baldwin:] So is it easy to have a tendency to want to doze?
[Iacopelli:] No, I've not had any personal instances of falling asleep, nor have I seen anyone do it. But it is a tedious time between 2:00 a.m. and 5:00 a.m. And where I work, we're fortunate to have two people on. You know, in a lot of these places we had up until recently, we had one person working in many instances some facilities that were significantly less busy than a place like New York.
[Baldwin:] Right, and that's the solution that we've seen, right? They're adding an extra man or woman, I think it's 27 different airports. Also, maybe adding another hour in the break time.
[Iacopelli:] That's correct.
[Baldwin:] But I know some air traffic controllers, and I think you're on this page, you want to add what you call recuperative breaks. And I don't know if that's a fancy way of saying a nap, but I know that the Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood says no. You know, they don't want to pay people to nap while you're working. Give me your argument in favor of these recuperative naps, breaks.
[Iacopelli:] Well, again, just to be clear, we are speaking about recuperative breaks, and it's time away from the control room, time away from the tower where these individuals have an opportunity to clear their head. It may be to get something to eat, it may be to get a cup of coffee, it may be to sit down in the chair and close their eyes, not necessarily sleep but close their eyes. It's an opportunity to be outside of the operation and gain the time that they need to come back to work, ready and prepared to do what they need to do.
[Baldwin:] How long of a break do you want?
[Iacopelli:] Well, again, we're trying to work through it. We have some studies and some science that shows that a couple hours works best. But again, this is not and it's important to understand it's not what the union is asking for. The union is not asking for this, this is a joint recommendation with the FAA, based on science. We incorporated data from studies on Department of Defense controllers, from NASA. And again, we're not alone in working shift work. There's a lot of science and data out there that shows that people who work shift work, who have to cover 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, are different than people who work 9:00 to 5:00. And it's important that we focus on the data. And there's a lot of stories out there that say "the union wants." It's not really what the union wants, it's we're just advocating mitigating the fatigue that the science has shown.
[Baldwin:] I think a lot of people who watch, they have worked overnights, I've worked overnights. You know, you don't have a typical 9:00 to 5:00 job, I know a lot of you have to cover these 247 shifts and that interferes with the body's natural rhythm. But if I may, I want to throw one solution out to you because, you know, you mentioned science and I actually spoke to a sleep expert who also testified on this very issue back in Capitol Hill in 1983. I want you to listen to his idea, and then I want your reaction.
[Unidentified Male:] Ideally, they would stay on the same shift for several weeks at a time. They would work for, at the maximum, four or five days consecutively, and rotate in a direction of rotation where they go from day shift to evening shift. Then they get used to working the evening shift for a couple of weeks and then they rotate on to the night shift. That way they don't go cold turkey from working at 6:00 in the morning to suddenly having to start at 10:00 p.m. and work all night.
[Baldwin:] So, Dean, what do you think about that idea? Would that work?
[Iacopelli:] Again, I haven't seen the data that he's relying on. But the scientists that we've talked to and who modeled the schedules over six-week periods found that working again, I don't know if he's talking about when he says night shifts, if he means the midnight shift.
[Baldwin:] I think he's referring to overnights versus daytime. And he's saying, look, it's better for the body to stay on one shift for X-period of time and then after, say, three months you guys all rotate. Would that work?
[Iacopelli:] I don't know. I don't know if it would work operationally but I don't know of any science that I've seen to support it. But I do know this, that life happens during the day. Now we can say that midnight shift, you know, when you rotate into it and you're stable and steady on that shift, then you'll get adjusted to it. But the body's natural rhythms want to be sleeping when you're trying to stay awake. And when you go home from work, when you want to go to sleep, your body wants to be awake. That's when life happens, life takes place during the day. Most of us have families, most of us have children. There's things that we have to do. It would in a sterile world, maybe you can go home, shut the curtains, turn off the lights and get eight hours of sleep during the day, but for the rest of us who live a normal life, life happens during the day. So I don't know that that is the absolute answer.
[Baldwin:] Sure, no, no. And I do want to say, you know, many of us are appreciative for air traffic controllers and the work you do. And I think a lot of people are just trying to find some sort of a solution so that everybody stays awake. Dean Iacopelli, we've got to go, but thank you so much for coming on.
[Iacopelli:] Thank you.
[Baldwin:] And back to the weather story. I'm just getting word that a code D, a code D has been declared at the Cullman Regional Medical Center; D stands for disaster. The switchboard operator there tells CNN, "something hit them," that's a quote, "something hit them." More on this after the break.