[Bill Clinton, Fmr. President Of The United States:] It's amazing to me. Now, I haven't seen the report. All I've seen is the news stories. But I can tell you, you know, I didn't do that.
[Bill Press, Co-host:] Tonight, as Republicans prepare to release a scathing report on the Clinton pardons, did the former president do anything wrong? Then, why some are seeing red over a basketball team called the "Fightin'Whiteys."
[Announcer:] Live from Washington, CROSSFIRE. On the left, Bill Press. On the right, Robert Novak. In the crossfire, Republican Congressman Bob Barr of Georgia, member of the Government Reform Committee and Julian Epstein, former chief Democratic council to the House Judiciary Committee. And later, radio talk show host Victoria Jones and of the Salem Radio Network, Mike Gallagher.
[Press:] It's CROSSFIRE. Thanks for joining us. Well, he's been out of office 14 months, but some people just can't stop talking about Bill Clinton, like chairman Dan Burton, who will release a report tomorrow on those messy last minute Clinton pardons. Burton's report, already leaked to "The L.A. Times" and "New York Times" and CNN, among others, accuses Clinton of encouraging half-brother Roger to offer pardons for sale. And it claims that many pardons, including that notorious one given fugitive Marc Rich, bypassed the standard Justice Department review and went directly to the Oval Office, again on Clinton's orders. President Clinton today laughed off Burton's report as ridiculous. And so tonight, back to Pardongate. Did Clinton or any of his family break the law? Will Burton's report serve any purpose, other than giving Clinton-haters one more thing to chew on? Bob?
[Bob Novak, Co-host:] Julian Epstein, I know it's hard to discuss this, when we've already had Bill Clinton, who says, "I didn't do anything." You know, we can't we always believe what Bill Clinton says. But I'd just like to read you something from the report. And we'll put it up on the screen. "President Clinton encouraged," this is according to the report, "President Clinton encouraged Roger Clinton," his brother, "to capitalize on their relationship. At the beginning of his second term, President Clinton instructed Roger to use his connections to the administration to gain financial advantage." And the report goes on to say that Roger earned or acquired hundreds of thousands of dollars in representing these pardon seekers. That's a scandal, isn't it?
[Julian Epstein, Fmr. House Judiciary Counsel:] Well, again, I think this just shows you "shows how amateurish this report is and it's really this is keystone cops all over again. The evidence that they show for President Clinton directing his brother to cash in on his presidency was like five times removed. It was a friend, of a friend, of a friend said that Roger Clinton told him that the president told him this. I mean, this is the type of stuff that would make someone laugh in a court of law. The fact of the matter is, this report, Bob, is another cowardly, cheap shot against the president by a committee that has had a long history of making accusations that it couldn't back up. Remember, the principle thesis of this hearing was that there was a quid pro quo for the pardons, that these pardons were paid for with campaign donations. If you notice that this accusation, the committee has entirely backed off of it. The U.S. Attorney is not looking at this. And it's time for principled Republicans. I think, and I think you're a principled Republican. I think Bob Barr's a principled Republican. I think it's time for principled Republicans to stand up and eat a little bit of crow here. The accusations that were made against the Clinton administration have the committee is backing down from them now. The committee has fallen on its face, so what it does is it reverts to the secondary issues about Roger Clinton and these other matters, as basically a way of covering its own butt, and it's failed to produce evidence for its accusations.
[Novak:] I don't know if you've even seen the report, Julian.
[Epstein:] I have.
[Novak:] I have gone through it. I think it's very shocking. And I knew that you were going to say, gee, they didn't have any justification for what they said. And the chairman was on this network just about two hours ago and let's listen to what he said.
[Rep. Dan Burton , Govt. Reform Chairman:] All of it is documented. None of it is just made up. We have documentation for everything that's said in that report.
[Novak:] And I went through the report and there was documentation. It wasn't five times removed on the Roger Clinton accusation. It was a report from somebody who had talked to somebody who talked to Clinton. That's just once removed.
[Epstein:] Somebody who talked to Roger Clinton.
[Novak:] Yes.
[Epstein:] Yes, and that's the evidence for the fact that the president said something to Roger, somebody who was never in the room?
[Novak:] Yes.
[Epstein:] Well, let me tell you, Bob, if that's the evidence with which the conservatives and the Republicans in this committee want to use to produce a piece of fact, that's why time after time after time it's not credible...
[Novak:] You know what you're acting like? You're acting like a lawyer.
[Epstein:] No, I know. What I think it is is I think that this is shifting sands. What happens is you can't produce evidence for the accusations. You shift to other attenuated things that are basically meaningless as a way of covering yourself that you couldn't produce evidence for the principle reasons for the hearings.
[Press:] Congressman...
[Rep. Bob Barr , Govt. Reform Cmte:] Bill, I know you're going to deal with the facts.
[Press:] Congressman Barr, it's been a whole week since you've been on CROSSFIRE bashing Bill Clinton. I just I don't know what took you so long to get back, but I want to pick...
[Barr:] I only come when I'm invited, Bill.
[Press:] And we love having you. I want to pick on this report that Bob and Julian have been talking about, and read you the quote from the report that makes it this is the most explosive charge, that Bill Clinton encouraged his brother, half-brother to go out and make money using trading on the president's name. And here's what the report says, "Bill Clinton had instructed him that since this was the last term in office, Roger should find a way to make a living and use his relationship with the president to his advantage." Now that's not Bill Clinton it says there. It's not Roger Clinton it says there. It's not George Lock, who's a former state senator in Arkansas who says that. It's an attorney for George Lock, who says that George Lock told him that Roger told him that Bill Clinton told him. This is pure hearsay. You know that, Bob Barr. And it's one source four times removed. And you will hang the former president on that?
[Barr:] Bill, you know, I could go through any report and pick out one instance that such as you're citing, where the evidence doesn't back up the point that the other side is making. But there is as Bob has said, and certainly you respect Bob and his research abilities, he went through that report as I have done. And time after time after time, there is very clear evidence what you have here, Bill, let me I know you'll find this shocking, you have a pattern of abuse of office that is not only typical of the Clinton administration, but endangers international security. You ever heard of a fellow named Harvey Wian?
[Press:] Endangers our national security?
[Barr:] Harvey Wian?
[Press:] Can we stick to this point here?
[Barr:] No, no, no. It is very much on point. When you have somebody like Marc Rich, okay, who would who has worked against our nation's national security interests, who has worked against the national security interests of other nations, who is pardoned for no apparent reason...
[Press:] Congressman, let me save you the rebut. I've never defended the Marc Rich pardon, but I want to come back to what Chairman Burton said on our air, that everything is documented.
[Barr:] And it is.
[Press:] That is a lie. This is not documented. Congressman...
[Barr:] There are instances there where people in Alabama very the talk...
[Press:] May I please repeat?
[Barr:] ...that talked with Clinton. Talked with him, Bill.
[Press:] Look, this is the most explosive charge of the whole report.
[Barr:] Maybe to you it is, maybe to you it is.
[Press:] Oh, no, I'm sorry. This is the headline. This is the one Dan Burton talked about on our air. He sent his document.
[Barr:] That's exactly...
[Press:] And I want to come back to the fact. I mean, if this were "The National Enquirer," okay, but this is a congressional committee, a committee of the United States Congress. And you would condemn a former president based on what one guy said, another guy said, another guy said, another guy said. Shame on you.
[Barr:] No, Bill. What I do is I condemn a former president for pardoning adversaries of our nation, people who have laundered $100 million for the cartel, putting them back on the street. That's what I condemn him for. And you ought to also.
[Novak:] Julian Epstein, I think the most serious charge is that Jack Quinn, the lobbyist, Democratic lobbyist, former chief of staff for Al Gore...
[Epstein:] Went with Eric Holder.
[Novak:] Yes, and went to Eric Holder, the deputy Attorney General, and they colluded to keep this out of the normal track. Let me read again from the report. And we'll put it on the screen. "Jack Quinn...and Holder worked together to ensure that the Justice Department, especially the prosecutors of the Southern District of New York, did not have an opportunity to express an opinion on the Rich pardon before it was granted." That is a shocking charge. And I think it's undeniable, isn't it?
[Epstein:] No, again, and I think this shows the amateur hour nature of this report. And again, I point out the fact, and I'm going to answer the question, I point out the fact that you and Mr. Barr keep avoiding the fact that this committee has fallen on its face and has not been able to back up its central accusation for holding these hearings, which is quid pro quo.
[Barr:] Well, part of the reason was, people were taking the Fifth Amendment.
[Epstein:] Secondly, there is no obligation of Jack Quinn to go to the Southern District of New York. The way things normally happen is in the pardon process, you go to the pardon office. The pardon office will then consult with the U.S. Attorney. The reason that they didn't go to the pardon office in this instance, and the answer to your question, the reason why Eric Holder said go to the White House, is because they were taking a note out of the George Bush handbook when they pardoned Caspar Weinberger.
[Novak:] Oh, Julian.
[Epstein:] The rule is on pardons, can I tell you why, before you shake your head? The rule is...
[Barr:] I'm surprised.
[Epstein:] ...if nobody's been convicted and if nobody served jail time, the pardon office doesn't hear the case. The pardon office testified to that, but you wouldn't learn that from reading the report because the report omits that.
[Press:] Now here's what I find interesting, Congressman Barr. All this stuff is thrown out there, and yet congressman Burton said today, he's not going to answer to any criminal charges be pressed against the former president. So once again, all the wild charges and no follow-up. Why not? And isn't it because you know there's not enough evidence? All you've got is a pure political hatchet job? So you throw it out there, get the headline, smear the president and do nothing about it.
[Barr:] Bill, go back to Civics 101. It is not the job of Congress to prosecute. It is the job of the executive branch.
[Press:] Recommend, congressman. He doesn't even recommend that that's just what I said.
[Barr:] What we do is gather evidence and lay it before the American people. And the evidence in this case indates a shocking disregard for the judicial and our national security process.
[Novak:] We're out of time.
[Epstein:] The committee has repeatedly recommended to the Justice Department. They thought they didn't in this case, which is more evidence that they backed down from the central charge.
[Novak:] Julian Epstein, thank you very much. Congressman Bob Barr, thank you. Next on CROSSFIRE, the fighting whites, is that the proper answer to using Redskins, Braves and Indians as athletic nicknames?