[Text:] LET'S GET AFTER IT.
[Cuomo:] All right, let's get back to Georgia. Ahmaud Arbery was killed more than two months ago there. An arrest only came after a tape was made public, showing large parts of the altercation, a tape that police had from jump. So yes, one of the few memes that are true on social media is that it wasn't the police seeing the tape that made a difference. It was us seeing the tape. What else have we not seen? What else do we not know? We know the Federal Government is now weighing in on whether it has a hate crime. It's a high bar. And often, those investigations wind up very disappointing. What will happen here? Police had video from day one, remember it. What we don't understand really is why this happened, and why it was on video, in the first place? So, let's bring in the man who knows the answer, William Bryan, along with his Attorney, Kevin Gough. Gentlemen, thank you for taking the opportunity.
[Kevin Gough, Bryan's Attorney:] Thank you, Sir.
[William Bryan, Recorded Arbery Shooting:] Thank you.
[Gough:] Good evening.
[Cuomo:] All right, Mr. Bryan, you are known as "Roddie" to friends, correct?
[Bryan:] That's right.
[Cuomo:] And in the police report, the McMichaels referred to a "Roddie." I'm assuming that was you, yes?
[Gough:] OK. Hey, hold on, Chris.
[Cuomo:] Yes?
[Gough:] You've been a prosecutor. And you can imagine that this prosecutor that's been in this case 24 hours, she's going to start throwing stuff around her living room, if you start doing her job for her, OK? Because as good as you are, she'd probably rather do it herself. Do you know that what we could talk about without causing problems for anybody? And I know you're trying. But this man cannot be answering substantive questions about the case. And if you feel that we've misled you in some way, I'm sorry.
[Cuomo:] No, no, no, no, no, it's not about misleading.
[Gough:] But-
[Cuomo:] It's about just being clear for the audience.
[Gough:] Sure, OK.
[Cuomo:] I always believe that the best opportunity the media can give you is the opportunity to tell the truth in a way that helps you. That's all I'm saying. I don't know why you would dispute the notion of the man's presence-
[Gough:] Yes.
[Cuomo:] -at the situation. But that's fine. Let me move on. And you, Counselor, should weigh in whenever you feel like it. So, Mr. Bryan, how did you come to be in the car videotaping that day?
[Gough:] OK. We're not going there.
[Cuomo:] You don't want to talk about that either. All right, so let's do this. You are afraid of the facts of this case, Counselor, why?
[Gough:] Sir, I'm not afraid of anything. And I'm certainly not with all due respect-
[Cuomo:] Sure.
[Gough:] -I'm not afraid of you. But I respect you.
[Cuomo:] And I respect you.
[Gough:] You are a brilliant, very capable lawyer, and you are a brilliant you were a very good prosecutor. And my client is a mechanic with a high school education. And if you've ever been to the high schools around here, that's not necessarily saying much, OK? And I don't mind if the Board of Education doesn't like it, you know, I'm not their friend either, OK? But you can't be asking him questions about the substance of the evidence because, like I said, there's a young lady that's been in this case, less than 24 hours, who's going to be throwing stuff around her living room, and I don't want her mad at me, and I don't want her mad at my client.
[Cuomo:] I understand.
[Gough:] On the other hand, if you want to ask him if you want to ask him about his experiences here, how he feels, I don't have a problem with that.
[Cuomo:] OK. Let me ask him one question. Then I want to get back to you, Mr. Gough.
[Gough:] And I have gone over this and-
[Cuomo:] Because you have a different-
[Gough:] Sure.
[Cuomo:] -latitude than he does.
[Gough:] Sure, Sir.
[Cuomo:] And just for the record, I do not believe that a level of education is in any way commensurate with common sense, or savvy, or understanding, everything that you need to know about this case, just through life experience. I want you to know that. I don't care that he only went to high school. Plenty of people have done that and achieved great things let alone know why the heck they were in a car videotaping something like this. But let's put it to the side. Mr. Bryan, what do you want the audience to know about your role, your feelings, and your sense of responsibility for this situation?
[Gough:] Is that a multiple question, Chris?
[Cuomo:] Mr. Gough, let him under let him answer it. I'm sure he'll do a good job. You can always answer you can you can amend after. Mr. Bryan?
[Bryan:] I would just like to say, first of all, I am very sorry to the family. I pray for them every night as well as my own family.
[Cuomo:] All right, Mr. Gough, do you think that your client should be understood-
[Gough:] Yes.
[Cuomo:] -as part of the altercation that day?
[Gough:] No, Sir, no, Sir, not at all.
[Cuomo:] Because?
[Gough:] Because my client my client has done nothing wrong here. He's committed no crime. And this is a horrible tragedy. This young man has lost his life uh. And you've seen the video. On a scale of one to 10, that's just look that's just it's horrifying to watch. It's painful to watch, even for a a former prosecutor like yourself, and I'm sure you've seen lots of grizzly incidents. So, this is a terrible matter. And some people are going to have to answer for what they did. But my client was not responsible for that. My client was unarmed. My client hasn't shot anybody. My client hasn't been in so much as a fist fight since he was in high school. And you can take a look at him. He's 5'6" 5'7". This is not a gentleman who's out there looking for a fight or looking for trouble.
[Cuomo:] I understand. I understand. But often-
[Gough:] And, of course OK.
[Cuomo:] -as we both know, again, Mr. Gough, you're I'm not putting your guy on trial, OK? That that's not my job.
[Gough:] OK.
[Cuomo:] My job is this doesn't make any damn sense, this situation, and somebody wound up dead. And as we both know, the smaller you get the more likely you are the-
[Gough:] Oh we can we can agree. We can agree that that-
[Cuomo:] -to use a weapon to make any kind of a show of force. So, I don't care about the size of the people involved. It's about the size of their heart and the size of their brain. What I want to know is this. When you say that your client should not be considered as part of the altercation, I'm assuming-
[Gough:] He is not considered part of the altercation, Chris.
[Cuomo:] OK.
[Gough:] He's a witness, and that's all. That's all he's ever been.
[Cuomo:] OK, good. And I and I will take that answer as guidance until I hear any different from an investigative authority, which I have not. Now, the McMichaels seem to know him. But I want to give you a chance, Counselor, the fact that the McMichaels know Roddie or that Roddie knows them, why is it wrong to suggest therefore he knew about their intentions that day?
[Gough:] There is no relationship whatsoever between Roddie and the McMichaels. And with all due respect, while I'm not at liberty to go into all the details, but I don't think it's any secret that the relationship between Roddie's fiancee and the District Attorney's Office here, it's utterly absurd to think that she would ever have any dealings with these people. You just don't understand, Chris. I mean you've heard things about-
[Cuomo:] That's why I'm talking to you.
[Gough:] -how bad it is down here, OK?
[Cuomo:] First of all, I am not condemning-
[Gough:] This is the District Attorney's Office that has-
[Cuomo:] -I am not condemning an area. I don't understand why no arrest was made. I don't understand why someone who recused themselves from the case went out of their way to paint a false picture of the victim. But these are not questions for you to answer. But I don't want to impugn a character of a community or of the Police Force other than to state curiosity at their inaction, and that's why this interview was so important. If it weren't for your client's tape, I don't know that anything would have happened here. And is that something let me go back to-
[Gough:] Oh, I think you're right.
[Cuomo:] Hold on, let me go back to Mr. Bryan on that. Mr. Bryan, I hope you understand that your decision to videotape this may be what makes all the difference in the administration of justice in this case. Are you aware of that?
[Bryan:] Yes, Sir. If there wasn't a tape, then we wouldn't know what happened, or-
[Cuomo:] And how do you feel about that?
[Bryan:] -I I would. I hope that it, in the end, brings justice to the family and peace to the family.
[Cuomo:] Mr. Gough, audience is listening now.
[Gough:] Yes, Sir.
[Cuomo:] What do you want them to understand about why your client was where he was, if it is not true that it was done in coordination with the McMichaels?
[Gough:] Chris, I don't think it's any secret. My client lives in that neighborhood. He's at his house, minding his own business, and I'm trying not to complicate anybody else's job, he was at his house, minding his own business. And things happen in a matter of minutes. His life has been changed forever. And this family, the Arberys, their lives have been changed forever, you know. And it's sometimes difficult, in these situations, to to see the bigger picture. Mother's Day was not pleasant for Roddie here. It wasn't pleasant for me either. It wasn't the Mother's Day I was hoping for. But, at the same time, Roddie's going to have other Mother's Days, that is if nobody takes a potshot at him. But the Arberys will never be able to spend another Mother's Day with their son. So, you know, for them, this is it's hard to imagine anything worse that could have happened.
[Cuomo:] I'll get back to the fact pattern before we end. But let me ask you a couple of side questions because of your-
[Gough:] OK, yes.
[Cuomo:] -your apparent perspective on this place. Why do you think somebody might take a potshot at your client?
[Gough:] Because certain people out there, for reasons that are not clear, are deliberately putting all kinds of misinformation out there, to the extent, and I can't I can't speak for the GBI, but I'm sure that that however well-intentioned, that is hindering and hampering and impeding their investigation.
[Cuomo:] Like what?
[Gough:] There's so much distraction the people out there that are talking about my client being some kind of vigilante, they're they're conjuring up conspiracy theories that don't exist, saying that my client was armed. Everyone knows he wasn't armed. That's never been an issue from day one. And, you know, why people would continue to put things out like that, to suggest that somehow he's in cahoots with whatever's been going on, up on the third floor, at the Courthouse, with the D.A.'s, he's look, Greg McMichael worked for the D.A.'s Office for many years, and he was a Glynn County police officer before. My client does not have, quote unquote, "Strong ties to law enforcement." He doesn't have ties to law enforcement.
[Cuomo:] I got you.
[Gough:] And since he's been in this since he's been in this relationship with this young lady, I can assure you that whether he realized it or not, he had no friends up at the Courthouse and-
[Cuomo:] All right.
[Gough:] -and all this conversation, and these letters, in this legal analysis, while his name may have come up in it, nobody up there, with all due respect, gives a darn whether he lives or dies.
[Cuomo:] Just-
[Gough:] So, the idea that we have anything to do with this delay, in the prosecution of this case-
[Cuomo:] OK.
[Gough:] -we've done everything we could do.
[Cuomo:] Listen, I got you. And I have no interest and intrigue about local politics. But for those tuning in, just right now, what is your reservation, again, for your client doing what he is imminently capable of doing, saying why he was where he was, why he videotaped as he did, and what he understands happened that day? Why do you not want him to say what can only help clear his name?
[Gough:] Because Chris, in America, as I believe you're well aware, we try our cases in courts of the law. And this stig where we've come to in this country, over the years, where important cases are being tried in newspapers, and on television, and on blogs and stuff, that is not serving the interests of justice.
[Cuomo:] But he's not on trial.
[Gough:] And if you were a prosecutor in this case, if-
[Cuomo:] He is not going to be on trial, is he?
[Gough:] He doesn't control anything. He's a pawn in a much larger game. And he has no say-so in that.
[Cuomo:] But he is a witness, and we have witnesses on all the time-
[Gough:] And there are people out there who have-
[Cuomo:] -so the American people can understand maybe that there is a miscarriage of justice because the facts as they're being evinced from people who are on the ground, who saw, and heard, and experienced, give a different picture than what they're getting from authorities. They can be very helpful.
[Gough:] And when you feel that you are not being treated right, you should speak out. And if people won't listen to you, you need to speak out further.
[Cuomo:] OK.
[Gough:] And that's exactly what happened in this case. This family wanted justice. And I'm not commenting on the McMichaels. That's not my place, OK? And they've got rights, and they're presumed innocent too. But they spoke out. They wanted justice. They weren't treated right. And they kept talking, and nobody was listening. And I know some of the people who were trying to help them. And nobody was listening.
[Cuomo:] Is your client one of them?
[Gough:] And these gentlemen, they have come in-
[Cuomo:] Was he one of the people trying to help? Is your client one of the people-
[Gough:] Mister Arbery-
[Cuomo:] -who was trying to help the Arberys?
[Gough:] He was helping that day, yes sir.
[Cuomo:] Let me-
[Gough:] But for him but for him, there would be no video.
[Cuomo:] Let me that's true. Let me ask you about the McMichaels really quickly. Based on your understanding of the community, and the relationships involved, do you believe the McMichaels had some kind of connection to Ahmaud Arbery, at least in their own perspective of understanding?
[Gough:] Chris, honestly, I don't know. And there's been so much misinformation out there, and gossip, and speculation, I don't want to add to it.
[Cuomo:] Well the police report the police report-
[Gough:] You know, I've heard so many crazy things.
[Cuomo:] But Mr. Gough, let's forget about community hearsay. I don't care about Chatty Cathys either. What I'm saying is, in the police report, the McMichaels made it very clear-
[Gough:] Yes.
[Cuomo:] -to the police, in the moment, where they were on the scene with the victim lying in his own pool of blood that they thought they knew this guy, that they had been on the lookout for this guy, that they identified him from past experience of seeing him, and knowing him. I don't think that surprises you, why? What do you think the McMichaels believed about Arbery?
[Gough:] My understanding, Chris, and I've been in this case for 72 hours, and I'm playing catch-up here. But my understanding was that this young man, as he lay there, what that well not so much as a blanket or a towel over his head, OK, but as he's there, nobody knows who he is. His family was not there. And I can only assume they were not there because they were not notified. And they were not notified because nobody knew. Now, I can't speak for the McMichaels, and what's in their mind. All I'm hearing it is that well after this incident took place, nobody could identify him. Now, why the McMichaels do or say what they do then, or now, I can't speak to that. But if the police couldn't identify him, it may be that, I don't know. You're going to have to ask the McMichaels or their lawyer.
[Cuomo:] They have been given the opportunity.
[Gough:] But my understanding was well they're sitting in a jail cell, as far as I know, without counsel, which I'm sure for for Greg McMichael is an experience he never thought he'd experience. But that's not why we're here.
[Cuomo:] All right. So, Mister-
[Gough:] But what I'm saying is my understanding is the police couldn't figure out who he was for some time.
[Cuomo:] Right.
[Gough:] And they should have been treating that body with respect, and that young man with respect, even before they knew who his mother and father was. I'm not saying they didn't.
[Cuomo:] Well no no question about that.
[Gough:] But from what I've heard, nobody knew who he was.
[Cuomo:] Nobody-
[Gough:] They couldn't identify him.
[Cuomo:] No question about that. But I think-
[Gough:] Maybe that's wrong.
[Cuomo:] -there's a difference between-
[Gough:] But that'what I heard.
[Cuomo:] -there's a difference between his name and people thinking they knew him from earlier activities because McMichael himself says in the police report, in the moment that the police get to the scene that they knew who this guy was, and that they remembered him from something else, and that's why they took off after him, and that they had information about him being involved in other crimes that we can't track down anywhere, other than this video of him arguably trespassing on a construction site. So, just to be clear, as we end this interview, your statement, Mr. Gough, on per on behalf of William Bryan, also known as Roddie, is he wasn't working with the McMichaels. He wasn't called to the scene by the McMichaels. And he wasn't videoing in any way to help the McMichaels. Is that all true from your perspective?
[Gough:] He wasn't there for the McMichaels at all. I can say that. And he doesn't have any relationship with the McMichaels.
[Cuomo:] And the one sticking point that I've heard you try to explain before but hasn't met satisfaction with me yet is when you see something that you know is wrong, even though you're videotaping it in the moment, even though things happened before the videotaping that he didn't videotape, you call the police. I don't care about his education. Everybody knows that. You can be in high school. I've met many people, and so have you, in high school, who will eat our lunch despite all our education intellectually. Why didn't he call 9-1-1?
[Gough:] Well, first of all, he can't use the phone for a phone call while he's using it-
[Cuomo:] I know. But you can hang up and call 9-1-1.
[Gough:] -as a camera. Maybe you can.
[Cuomo:] You can stop videotaping and call 9-1-1.
[Gough:] OK.
[Cuomo:] That's an easy answer.
[Gough:] Chris?
[Cuomo:] Yes, Sir.
[Gough:] Chris, with all due respect-
[Cuomo:] Please?
[Gough:] -with all due feel free to give the answer for me, OK? If you're asking me my answer-
[Cuomo:] Yes.
[Gough:] -I can tell you that in the real world, things are much different. It's one thing to watch it on TV. It's another thing to do it in real life. And this is a-
[Cuomo:] Calling 9-1-1?
[Gough:] -he's not young man. But-
[Cuomo:] What's the difference?
[Gough:] Oh, I hope we all know how to call 9-1-1.
[Cuomo:] But what I'm saying is what what point are you trying to make?
[Gough:] There was no question that 9-1-1-
[Cuomo:] Right now, I'm videotaping you. I think it's very important. I decide to stop-
[Gough:] My point to you is-
[Cuomo:] -because now I'm going to call 9-1-1.
[Gough:] Hey, Chris, if you-
[Cuomo:] I call 9-1-1. What's so what's complicated, Mr. Gough?
[Gough:] OK. If you'll go back and look at that video-
[Cuomo:] Yes, Sir.
[Gough:] -if my client had been two seconds, two seconds later, getting where he was, there wouldn't be any video, not one worth watching, not anybody one anybody would care about, there'd be nothing to there'd be nothing to see-
[Cuomo:] I agree.
[Gough:] -other than a young man bleeding out on the on the street.
[Cuomo:] I agree.
[Gough:] In the middle of the day.
[Cuomo:] I agree.
[Gough:] I think if you go back, and you look at the circumstances, putting aside the logistical issues about making telephone calls, while you're using your phone, I think if you go back and look at the circumstances, there was no question the police were on their way. I think the as I understand it, the sirens were audible almost immediately.
[Cuomo:] OK.
[Gough:] And they were on the scene for what felt like seconds, but couldn't have been couldn't have been more than a minute. Now, you've got better access to information than I do. And maybe I misunderstand that. But I'll be honest with you, under the circumstances, I don't think that anybody would have thought there was any question as to the police were coming, OK?
[Cuomo:] All right, Kevin Gough-
[Gough:] And, frankly, if the police had gotten if the police had gotten there a few seconds earlier, a minute earlier, this man still might be alive today.
[Cuomo:] Right, maybe, depends on how extreme the wounds were. It happened all very quickly. I'm not in the blame phase. Nobody should be. Mr. Gough, I appreciate you taking this opportunity. And Mr. Bryan, I appreciate you taking it as well. I understand why you're afraid of getting caught up in the case, and making people upset, in the process. I get it all. But I do want you to know this. I don't agree with your Counselor about one thing. Mechanics, you know, my brother's a mechanic. I was raised by mechanics. I'm sure that you are more than competent. I don't care about your education. You know what you did that day. You know why you did it, and you know how you feel about it. That has nothing to do with education. I want you to know that opportunity will always remain open to you here, and Counsel, for you as well. I'm not going to limit your capability to help people and convey information just because of what degree you have on your wall. I just want you to know that, Mr. Bryan. I respect you, and I appreciate you being here. Counselor, you as well, thank you.
[Gough:] Thank you, Sir.
[Cuomo:] All right. All right, let's take a break. We'll be right back.
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