[Bauer:] Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. I'm Bay Buchanan sitting in on the right. A group calling itself Women on Waves has converted a fishing boat into an abortion clinic and sailed with a Dutch flag to Ireland. The problem is they sailed without a proper license to operate a clinic, and we're told by Dutch authorities that if they took the life of even one child they would be facing four years in prison. Stopped cold on this trip, but what's going to happen on the next? Our guests, Elizabeth Birch, executive director of the Human Rights Campaign, and Gary Bauer, president of American Values Bill.
[Press:] Gary, quick question, I think I know why you don't like this boat, because these women are so clever. They have found a way around the antiquated laws of an antiquated country like Ireland. That's what it's all about, isn't it?
[Bauer:] Bill, talk about ugly Americans. You know, these folks are not content with 1.3 million abortions a year in America. They're trying to export it all over the world. Women around the world need lot of things. They need better health care, better education, better job opportunities. The last thing they need is being promoted the idea that taking innocent human life is somehow a great advantage for women. It isn't.
[Buchanan:] Elizabeth, Ireland is a democratic country. It is also a Catholic country. It voted twice, the people voted in a referendum twice keep abortion illegal. This is their choice. Is this not a contemptuous act on the part of these women to show up and suggest they change that?
[Birch:] I don't think so. I think that the choice to have an abortion is probably one of the most difficult ones that any individual would ever have to face, and I would never want to have to face that decision myself. But the fact is that conservatives want it both ways. I can't think of anything more intimate, more local than the control of one's reproductive rights. And I think the women of Ireland and the women of the planet deserve the opportunity to make these difficult decisions themselves, perhaps with a spouse or a partner, perhaps on occasion with their doctor or a religious adviser, but in fact, it is their own decision and not a government's decision.
[Press:] All right, Gary, let's back up here on this ship. Now, as we know, there was rumors that they do have a clinic on board this ship so there was a capacity to perform abortions if women had requested it and they went off in international waters. They're not doing that, because as Bay pointed out they didn't have the license. There was talk that they might give out the pill, RU-486. They're not doing that because they don't have a license. So at the most they're offering counseling now. But let's go back and assume that they were doing what they said they were going to do. I mean, there are casino ships all over the world that pick people up, where gambling is not allowed, and they go off into international waters and they can gamble away. There are 6,000 women a year from Ireland that go to England because they choose to have an abortion. If these Irish women want to exercise that right, why shouldn't they be able to go out under international law and do so? It's a medical service...
[Bauer:] Well, because because the taking of innocent human life is a little bit more profound than rolling the dice on a gambling ship.
[Press:] See, they don't believe you. I mean, they don't share that same opinion, Gary. So why shouldn't they have the choice to exercise their rights?
[Bauer:] Obviously not. But the good people of Ireland, a majority of them, do share my opinion, which is why they've spoken on this issue a number of times. And as a right of a sovereign nation they've decided they don't want to go down the road that the United States was forced to go down by Roe versus Wade, a horrible Supreme Court decision that's resulted in the destruction of millions of innocent human unborn children.
[Press:] Let me ask about this. What if this was the good ship Viagra? Viagra is allowed in Ireland, not RU-486. What if this ship were pulling into Dublin to give away free Viagra? They'd have a hero's welcome from the Irish, wouldn't they?
[Bauer:] Well, Bill, I don't know. I mean, I think they're going to still have to go to the drugstore and not count on a ship docking there...
[Buchanan:] Yeah, the last I heard Viagra didn't kill babies, Bill.
[Bauer:] ... in order to get your Viagra.
[Press:] Neither does RU-486.
[Buchanan:] Disagree...
[Press:] Yeah, right. Damn right.
[Bauer:] Fundamental disagreement.
[Buchanan:] Elizabeth, you say conservatives want it both ways. Let's talk about liberals, in particular your group, Human Rights Campaign. You say that all these different people have human rights, but you seem to be the one that wants to choose who has the right to live. OK, these babies have a right to life, yet you are unwilling to defend their right.
[Birch:] That's not what I said. I think that what I I really battle with is who makes the decision. And I think you want to place the decision in the hands of large, unwieldy governments, and I want to put the decision in the hands of women, who should have complete control over the reproduction...
[Buchanan:] What about the human rights? You're not answering the human rights. You don't like it when government...
[Birch:] The decision about the human right should be placed in the hands of women who choose to bear or not bear children.
[Buchanan:] All right. What about what about...
[Birch:] It is the decision-maker...
[Buchanan:] All right. How about the times that we've had men who have actually decided that the women, their wives, were like property, and you've asked government to come in and say this is just not permitted. There's many, many times that you have come in and said we need laws to protect the rights of gay, because government has to step in because people are making the wrong choices. And yet in this occasion, you say, we're killing somebody here, it could be. We have a baby here we're killing, but with this crime, government backs out, women choose. This is life, Elizabeth.
[Birch:] This is the decision of the woman who would give birth or not. And it is not the decision it should not be the decision of the Irish government, or the American government. And that is it. I mean, it is a public policy position that I feel very strongly about. My organization does not take we are a pro-choice organization, this is not part of our central missing, but in fact, as a woman and I think countless men feel this way as well we are talking about the decision-maker. Should it be a large, faceless government, or should it be the woman and her intimates, the people that she cares about around her to grapple with that decision?
[Bauer:] But Bill, the more fundamental question is whether anybody should ever be able to make a choice to take the life of an innocent unborn child.
[Birch:] Well, who gets to say? Why do you get to say?
[Bauer:] We had some references to reproductive rights when a woman is pregnant, she has reproduced. The question is whether that child will now be allowed to live. You can call it whatever you want, but there is now there is now two heartbeats.
[Birch:] ... U.S. Supreme Court has ruled on this too. It is the law of the land.
[Bauer:] And God willing, they will rule sometimes soon...
[Birch:] It is the law of the land.
[Bauer:] ... that all of our children are protected by the law and protected by the constitution of the United States. But I would remind you again, you are very good at quoting the law of America, but you are quite willing to ignore the law of Ireland. They have decided they don't want abortions there.
[Birch:] No, what I'm saying is that Bay pointed out I'm simply saying this and I will go quickly that indeed, you were holding up a Supreme Court decision. The Supreme Court of this country has ruled.
[Bauer:] And Supreme Courts have made mistakes, and this is one of them.
[Birch:] It should be respected. No, it should be respected, as it is the law of the land.
[Bauer:] And one can abide by a decision while working strenuously to overturn it, just as we did in the Dred Scott case, which was the other time that the Supreme Court took a whole class of human beings and said they had no rights that the rest of us were bound to respect. That was a disaster and a blot on America's conscience, and I'm convinced, Elizabeth, that some day we will look back on this disaster of 1.3 helpless children destroyed every year, and we will be ashamed.
[Press:] I just want to cut in here. Here is the problem with you and Bay you keep calling it killing babies, killing children that is outrageous, that is wrong. If it is murder, why shouldn't the doctor and the woman both be accused of first-degree murder and executed? Why don't you support that? Because you know it's not murder.
[Bauer:] Bill, if you want to support such a law, I would urge you to do it. It would be a great step forward for you since you seem oblivious about the fact that it is innocent human life. What do you call when something that has a heartbeat is destroyed, Bill? Whether it's a dog, a cat, or an unborn child, it has been killed.
[Press:] You say it's choice and you let the woman make the choice.
[Bauer:] A heartbeat indicates life.
[Press:] Time to go. Good night, Gary Bauer, good night, Elizabeth Birch, thank you both for coming in.
[Birch:] Good night. Thank you.
[Press:] We are not saying good night yet, because on the boy scouts and on the ship Aurora, Bay Buchanan and I will have some closing comments coming up next.