[Piers Morgan, Cnn:] Tonight a father's pain. He lost his 6- year-old son at Sandy Hook, now his impassioned plea for an assault weapons ban, and the moment he was shouted down by gun advocates.
[Unidentified Male:] The Second Amendment shall not be infringed.
[Morgan:] My exclusive interview with that grieving father, Neil Heslin. Also the Connecticut senator who says the NRA is not as powerful as you think. And he's standing up to them. And lord of all sheriffs says this
[Sheriff David Clarke, Jr., Milwaukee County, Wisconsin:] Calling 911 and waiting is no longer your best option. You can beg for mercy from a violent criminal, hide under the bed or you can fight back.
[Morgan:] But the mayor says this.
[Unidentified Male:] To have him do that was just so irresponsible.
[Morgan:] They go head-to-head tonight. Plus out of bounds. The controversy surrounding an NFL ref just days before the Super Bowl. This is PIERS MORGAN TONIGHT. Good evening. We'll get to America's battle over guns in just a few moments. We begin tonight with another item on President Obama's agenda immigration. With more than 11 million undocumented immigrants already in this country, the president says those who want to become citizens should pass background checks, learn English, pay a penalty, and then, in his words, get in the back of the line. He also said if Congress doesn't work fast enough, he'll propose his own immigration bill. Listen to what the president told the crowd of a high school in Las Vegas today.
[Barack Obama, President Of The United States:] The reason I came here today is because of a challenge where the differences are dwindling, where a broad consensus is emerging, and where a call for action can now be heard coming from all across America. I'm here today because the time has come for commonsense, comprehensive immigration reform. The time is now.
[Morgan:] Arizona Governor Jan Brewer has been one of the president's most harsh critics on immigration. She's here to tell me now what she thinks of this development today. Welcome to you. How are you?
[Gov. Jan Brewer , Arizona:] I'm just fine, Piers. Thanks for having me on.
[Morgan:] Always a pleasure. Now we've seen you on tarmacs jabbing your finger at the president in the past over this very contentious issue. What is your verdict on what he announced today?
[Brewer:] Well, you know, I'm just absolutely thrilled that we've got the president talking about solutions and also I'm very grateful that we've got a bipartisan effort in the Senate to try to address the issue that America, the United States has been facing. Bottom line is I'm very, very encouraged with the ideas, particularly with the Senate proposing that we move forward and that we will get our border. We will, you know, have our border secured. Then we could deal with these other issues that have been results of from an unsecure border. So I think that we should all be pleased and claim victory.
[Morgan:] Well, the optimist in me is thrilled at this remarkable display of bipartisanship from Washington's politicians, and we should all celebrate this great moment. The cynic in me says that the reason that so many of the Republicans have softened their position including, dare I say it, your good self, is that you realized after the recent election that the Latino vote was disappearing from the Republicans and may never return. And it was precisely the hard line position over issues like immigration that was to blame. How do you plead to that charge?
[Brewer:] Well, you know, I'm not going to plea to any charge. But I will answer. You know, I know that there have been politicians saying that it was all because of the illegal immigration issue. You know, that's your opinion or other people's opinion. I think that overwhelmingly people understand we have an issue with an insecure border and we want operational control. And once we get that, which now we have bipartisan support for, I'm pleased that the Republicans and the Democrats agree that we need to get our border secure, and then we can deal with those issues. People understand that we have a very porous border, and we are facing a lot of problems with that. But I am very grateful that the discussion is there, that we're seeing movement and, of course, like lots of people have been saying, the devil's in the details, but what they lined out, it looks sounds to me, at least in the Senate, that is very, very promising. I don't think that the president actually went into that kind of detail, but we're talking. The president's talking, the Senate is talking and now we'll see what they come up in a bill and then we can have that debate in the proper setting where the debate takes place in Congress. And hopefully together collectively we can resolve all the issues, but I'm very encouraged that we get our that they're talking about the you know, the border being secure.
[Morgan:] Good, well, I'm encouraged, too. And I think it'd be churlish to be too cynical. So I salute you all for actually getting to a position where you can agree on things. It's a rare occasion in Washington recent history. Let's turn to a more contentious issue, gun control. Arizona has a lot of its own issues in relation to this. What is your position on where we are with the gun control debate, and what do you think may actually be done to try and deal with America's burgeoning gun violence?
[Brewer:] Well, you know, it is terrible, unimaginable tragedy has taken place in the United States in regards to people, I believe, that have mental health issues that have created terrible tragedy. But I'm a strong proponent and supporter of the Second Amendment. And I think we have to look at the mental health situation and how we're delivering those services. And we've done that in Arizona. We are moving forward with expanding funding for that particular population and trying to put resource officers into the schools, and it is something that across the United States that we need to deal with. But I don't believe and I'll make it perfectly clear that taking guns away from law-abiding citizens is the answer.
[Morgan:] Right. But as you know, nobody is suggesting taking a single gun away from anyone. There's not a single proposal that removes a gun. All they're talking about is removing a certain type of weapon from future purchase. So when people say, you want our guns, that's not true.
[Brewer:] Well, you know, Piers, you know, I guess everybody interprets it differently. And of course, there again, there's no legislation written, so we don't really know what they're going to do, but we know that they are classifying certain guns that are used for different types of things, competition, family guns, that you know, that some people find or have discovered that they would like to call them assault weapons, and not all of them in a lot of people's minds are not categorized like that. So again I, you know, I assume
[Morgan:] How did you feel, though, if
[I -- Brewer:] based on a federal level. And if they would come to some kind of
[Morgan:] Yes.
[Brewer:] solution, if there is a solution, but I truly believe it's the mental health issue that we really need to adopt and we need to be sure that we have safe zones. I've always been a proponent of safe zones.
[Morgan:] Let me just ask you one question before I let you go, Governor, if I may.
[Brewer:] Thank you.
[Morgan:] How did you feel on a human level, when you saw the testimony last night of the Sandy Hook father, Neil Heslin, who lost his son Jesse, his only child. And members of the audience who were gun supporters, when he asked them to give him one reason why any civilian needs an assault weapon, an assault rifle of a type that killed his son, they began shouting out, Second Amendment, infringement, and my rights. How did you feel on a human level about that moment?
[Brewer:] Piers, I didn't see that interview. I'm not aware of that show. I can just tell you that I think that any mother, me being one, or a father, that has lost a child and I have lost a child. It's a tragedy. It's a tragedy. Your heart breaks. There is no answer. And there is no answer. Mental illness, if we can get our arms around that, I think that is going to help a whole lot, but you know, children have been lost because of knives, they've been lost because of not protecting them around swimming pools. It's horrible when you lose a child. But you've got to be realistic and you've got to find the solution that addresses the issue. And I think in efforts to try to solve this problem with the terrible gun tragedies that we've seen, that those people, generally speaking, and I think overwhelmingly people agree, that it truly is a mental health problem. And we need to deal with that. We need to be sure that we
[Morgan:] I mean, I do hear that a lot. I don't disagree with you. But
[Brewer:] To those people
[Morgan:] But there are many right. But there are many, many countries around the world that have similar mental health issues and have similar violent video games, similar Hollywood movies. What they don't have is the gun murder rate of America which is 20 times that of any of the other civilized so-called rich countries. Let me just ask you one final question
[Brewer:] Well
[Morgan:] which is well, let me ask you
[Brewer:] Let me can I answer that, though?
[Morgan:] Do you honestly Governor, Governor.
[Brewer:] In Mexico, guns are illegal and they they have all kinds of crimes and murders in Mexico and they're illegal in Mexico. I mean, just take one country for example.
[Morgan:] Right. Let me just ask you one final question which is, do you genuinely not believe
[Brewer:] Sure.
[Morgan:] Because you are, you know, a well-established governor in America. Do you genuinely not believe that America's gun crime rate would fall if you removed guns from circulation rather than increased the volume of guns in circulation?
[Brewer:] I don't. I believe that the bad guys, irresponsible people will always find a way to have guns. And we see that in other countries. We see it happening in places where there is high restrictions on gun ownership. But law-abiding citizens aren't the ones that are committing those crimes.
[Morgan:] Governor Brewer, it was pleasure talking to you again. Thank you very much indeed.
[Brewer:] Thank you. Thank you, Piers. Appreciate it.
[Morgan:] I was talking there about Neil Heslin. He lost his 6- year-old son in the shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School. He spoke movingly about it, most recently at a hearing in Hartford, Connecticut, last night where he's interrupted by gun advocates. And he joins me now exclusively along with Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut. Welcome to you both.
[Sen. Chris Murphy , Connecticut:] Thank you.
[Morgan:] Neil, I want to talk to you first, if I may. We've spoken several times. And I feel like I've got to know you reasonably well and know the appalling impact of losing your only child, and I found the scenes that we watched today from last night's encounter between you and the gun advocates very powerful. And I don't want to put any words in your mouth. I don't want to frame how you felt about this because I know that you've been pretty decent about it. You didn't view what happened as heckling. You respect, I believe, the rights of those advocates to express an opinion. They were answering a question that you put to them. I've got to say, though, from my point of view watching it, I found it repulsive that people would respond to your call for the assault rifle that killed your son by shouting out Second Amendment, infringement, and my rights. Now what was your reaction as it was happening?
[Neil Heslin, 6-year-old, Jesse Lewis, Died In Sandy Hook:] It didn't really faze me and it was no more and no less than I would have expected. It wasn't the answer to my question. It was a response. You know, I'm still in favor of restrictive gun regulations. That hasn't changed my thoughts on that. Federally regulated licensing and background checks and the ban on certain guns and certain weapons with the capacity, the large capacities and the magazines. I don't see a need for them. And certain types of weapons that are categorized as assault weapons or military weapons.
[Morgan:] How did you feel, Neil
[Heslin:] All the massacres and this killing.
[Morgan:] Neil, when you heard fellow Americans when you heard fellow Americans saying that the reason they need the weapon that murdered your son, the AR-15 military style assault rifle, the reason they need it is because of their Second Amendment rights. As an American, what do you feel about the fact that they believe that right supersedes anything else including, you know the rights of your son to not be murdered by that weapon, if you take it to its logical conclusion?
[Heslin:] Well, I want to make it very clear. I'm in favor and I support the Second Amendment, and I'm not in favor of taking anybody's weapons or guns from them. I am in favor, and I do want to push for stricter regulations on certain type of weapons. As I said, like the military style weapons and the assault rifle weapons. So I am in support of the Second Amendment, and I think the people do have a right to bear arms and have the guns. And that wasn't what I'm asking for or pushing for.
[Morgan:] And Neil, that's an it's an right. And I totally get that and I understand that distinction very firmly. It's a distinction I've tried to talk about on this show repeatedly. Let me turn to Senator Murphy, if I may. Senator, this is clearly a highly emotive issue. And, you know, you can see that other families involved in the Sandy Hook tragedy have a different view. Some of them have said they don't see any need for any further gun control. And I respect all the opinions, I really do. I didn't respect the behavior of those who shouted out at Neil Heslin, my rights, infringement, Second Amendment, because I felt it was demeaning, I felt it was insulting to him, and I thought it didn't answer his question. Because the bottom line about Second Amendment is, as he rightly says, you know, you can still honor the Second Amendment, but why can't you remove these killing machines? After all automatic machine guns are all banned and nobody seems to mind that.
[Murphy:] Yes, first of all, I just stand in awe of Neil and frankly of all of the families who had the courage to come out and speak, whether it be in Washington, D.C., or in Hartford. I can't imagine the strength that it takes to do that. And I think you're right. I mean, it just isn't an answer to the question. I'm a supporter of the Second Amendment just like Neil is, just like Governor Brewer is, but Neil and I are supporters of the real Second Amendment, not the imaginary Second Amendment. The Second Amendment has always allowed people through their elected leaders to decide what weapons are reserved for the military and what weapons can be in the hands of private citizens. And the fact is that the gun that was used in Newtown, that was used in Aurora, in other mass shootings is a derivative of a weapon ha was used to kill people. And to me that's kind of a line that we should draw. If the design of a weapon is for sport or for hunting, then put in it private hands, but if the design of a weapon is to kill more people, then maybe we should reserve that for the military.
[Morgan:] I completely agree. Let's take a break. Let's come back and talk about the NRA in particular. Because I know, Senator, you've got strong views about the supposed power that they wield over politicians.