[Anderson Cooper, Cnn:] Good evening, everyone. Thanks for joining us, on a day that saw the coronavirus death toll pass 90,000 in this country. The president of the United States said today he is taking a drug to prevent coronavirus that the FDA warns is dangerous, and study after study now shows is useless against the virus. The drug is a familiar one by now, hydroxychloroquine, and, before going any further, you want to just read directly from the FDA's April 24th bulletin on this drug. Quote, "The FDA is aware of reports of serious heart rhythm problems in patients with COVID-19 treated with hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine." Additionally, quote, "Hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine have not been shown to be safe and effective for treating or preventing COVID-19." Well, those first words bear repeating: serious heart rhythm, heart problems in patients with COVID-19 treated with hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine. And a large study, published just days ago, in the "Journal of the American Medical Association," showed that patients who took the drug in combination with the antibiotic used in Z-Paks, which the president also touts, and did once again today, were more than twice as likely to suffer cardiac arrest. That's on top of other studies on hydroxychloroquine, or the related drug chloroquine alone, in which patients have also developed abnormal heart rhythms. So let that sink in for a moment. The leader of the free world is taking a drug that shows no apparent benefits for what he's taking it for, could be putting him at risk for serious heart problems, and here's how he explained it today.
[Donald Trump, President Of The United States:] The frontline workers, many, many are taking it. I happen to be taking it. I happen to be taking it.
[Unidentified Male:] Hydroxychloroquine?
[Trump:] I'm taking it, hydroxychloroquine.
[Unidentified Female:] When did you
[Trump:] Right now, yeah. A couple of weeks ago I started taking it.
[Unidentified Male:] Why, sir?
[Trump:] Because I think it's good, I've heard a lot of good stories. And if it's not good, I'll tell you right. I'm not going to get hurt by it.
[Unidentified Male:] Did the White House doctor recommend that you take that? Is that why you're taking it?
[Trump:] Yeah, White House doctor. He didn't recommend it. No, I asked him, "What do you think?" He said, "Well, if you'd like it?" I said, "Yeah, I'd like it. I'd like to take it." A lot of people are taking it, a lot of frontline workers are taking hydroxychloroquine. A lot of front I don't take it because hey, people said, "Oh, maybe he owns the company." No, I don't own the company. You know what? I want the people of this nation to feel good. This is a pill that's been used for a long time for 30, 40 years on the malaria, and on lupus, too. And even on arthritis, I guess, from what I understand. So it's been heavily tested in terms of I was just waiting to see your eyes light up when I said this, but you know, when I announced this. But, yeah, I've taken it for about a week and a half, now, and I'm still here. I'm still here.
[Unidentified Male:] Can you explain, sir, though, what is the evidence that it has a preventative effect?
[Trump:] Here we go, are you ready? Here's my evidence. I get a lot of positive calls about it. The only negative I've heard was the study where they gave it, was it the V.A.? With, you know, people that aren't big Trump fans.
[Cooper:] Did you get that? Never mind the research showing the dangers, multiple studies, the ones the only ones saying negative things about hydroxychloroquine, according to the president, aren't big Trump fans, and it's that simple. So, the "Journal of the American Medical Association," apparently not big Trump fans; the Food and Drug Administration, which is part of the president's, you know, government, not fans either, apparently; or all the other researchers doing studies on this around the country and the world, who are desperate for some sort of treatment that works; and the doctors who have stopped giving it to the patients, apparently they're just not into Trump. Or perhaps they are simply not into people taking medicine that won't help them and could seriously hurt them. Then again, as he's shown over the past weeks, for whatever reason, the president just cannot seem to stop talking about this, his drug of choice.
[Trump:] The FDA also gave emergency authorization for hydroxychloroquine. We're having some very good things happening with it. It's shown very encouraging very, very encouraging early results. There are some good signs. You've read the signs, I've read the signs, and I say it: "What do you have to lose?" I'll say it again: "What do you have to lose?" Take it. If things don't go as planned, it's not going to kill anybody. It will be wonderful it will be so beautiful. It will be a gift from heaven if it works. We have some other person put it forward that says, "Oh, let's go with it." You know, what do you have to lose? Try it if you'd like. I've seen things that I sort of like. So, what do I know? I'm not a doctor. I'm not a doctor, but I have common sense.
[Cooper:] He has common sense, he says, and he says he's taking a drug that's shown not to work, and could be harmful. Let's just leave it there. And, as we do, just remember, this wouldn't be the first time the president has touted unproven and dangerous, potentially deadly remedies.
[Trump:] Supposing we hit the body with a tremendous, whether it's ultraviolet or just very powerful light. And I think you said that hasn't been checked, but you're going to test it. And then I said supposing you brought the light inside the body which you can do, either through the skin or in some other way and I think you said you're going to test that, too. Then I see the disinfectant where it knocks it out in a minute, one minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning?
[Cooper:] Yeah, there's not, there's not a way to inject disinfectant into a human being, not a good idea. Potentially very grave circumstances, very grave results, could kill people. After those remarks you may remember the President's advisors persuaded him not to do any more coronavirus task force briefings which is again just a whole other thing. I mean, the idea that we no longer hear, you know, on a daily basis from the top scientists of the nation working on coronavirus because the people around the President said, you know what, Mr. President, you shouldn't do any more, you know, talking in front of people extemporaneously about this because it's apparently, you know, they thought it was harming him politically. There wasn't a whole lot of talk, though, about how further lives might be put in jeopardy or lost, so much for that. More now from CNN's Kaitlan Collins joining us from the White House. Kaitlan, what is the White House saying about this claim of the President he is now taking Hydroxychloroquine?
[Kaitlan Collins, Cnn White House Correspondent:] So far, Anderson, they've been quiet. We asked for more details on this, exactly how long the President has been taking it, how long does he expect to be taking it. And we haven't gotten any statements from the press office or from the White House medical office which typically has put out statements on the President's health in the past, like when he's gotten a physical or something like that. And you know, the thing here, this is a direct contradiction of the FDA's own guidance that they issued in April. Saying that Hydroxychloroquine should not be used outside of a clinical trial or in a hospital setting where you can be monitored, they can check your heart rhythm, things of that nature. So there are a lot of questions about, you know, is the President contradicting his own FDA here by announcing that he's been taking this for a week-and-a-half now.
[Cooper:] Is there any acknowledgment that, I mean, yeah, I know there's no acknowledgment. I mean, as you said, his own FDA has warned against this drug. You know, assuming he's taking it, I'm wondering is part of him taking it just, you know, him wanting to show that he doesn't listen to, you know, doctors or scientists or sound medical advice or studies because he's been touting this so long that now he's just being resistant? I mean, I don't know, it makes logically, I don't understand why he would be taking this.
[Collins:] Well, there was a little period there where he stopped touting it so often to where we asked him in the briefing why he stopped talking about it so much because for weeks he had been pushing it saying the sentiment, you know, what do you have to lose, which is what he said today. And then he kind of went quiet on it after he saw several studies from that journal from the V.A. study, the FDA guidance talking about how there is no proof that it works or that it helps in any way and actually it can be harmful if you do have coronavirus and other underlying health conditions. But then, you know, the President said today he's been taking it about a week and a half, we're not sure on the timeline there of course, that's what he said earlier today. But, Anderson, remember it was about a week and a half ago that two people who work in the White House tested positive for coronavirus, an aid to the Vice President and the President's personal valet. So the question is, is that a precaution that the President is now trying to take because that of? Even though there is no evidence that we should say that it prevents getting coronavirus.
[Cooper:] Yeah, Kaitlan Collins, Kaitlan appreciate it. Perspective now from CNN's Chief Medical Correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN Chief Political Analyst Gloria Borger and Dr. Erik Topol. In addition to being a renowned cardiologist, he's also on the coronavirus front lines as founder and director of the Scripps Research Translational Institute. Dr. Topol, when you heard the President say this today what did you make of it?
[Dr. Eric Topol, Executive Vice President, Scripps Research:] I was stunned, there is absolutely no data to support the use of this drug hydroxychloroquine for a preventive aspect of COVID infections. And there is definite risk, as you reviewed the April 24th guidance was based on the fact that there have been serious heart arrhythmias from this drug being used. And as also noted there's been a doubling of cardiac arrest [inaudible] just published in JAMA last week. So we have all the data to support risk, no data to show benefit, and here the President is taking the drug. I think your point about potential defiance, not just defiance of the science and the medical work that's been done to date, but the fact that he has promoted the drug so long and so hard, perhaps it has something to do with it.
[Cooper:] Dr. Topol, you're a cardiologist. Can you just explain the potential heart issues that this drug might cause if not taken as prescribed? Because as you mention, the FDA has warned of serious heart rhythm problems. The Journal of the American Medical Association was concerned of lethal consequences, and I know the VA study that there were a number of cardiac issues cardiac arrests with people who were taking this.
[Topol:] Exactly. So, the reason why this is a serious matter is that the heart is susceptible to during the repolarization phase, that is, after the heart has been stimulated to contract. In that phase, there is an interval called QT, and this QT can be prolonged particularly by hydroxychloroquine. In addition, there's the thimerosal too, so it's a double whammy but just hydroxychloroquine can do this, and the important point, Anderson, is that it's not something that's just because you have heart disease. It could be a genetic predisposition. It could be because of other medications that one is taking. But the key point is you can't predict it, and there is this risk of this serious heart rhythm, it's called torsade de pointes, and it can result in cardiac arrest and death.
[Cooper:] Sanjay, A, how much does this concern you? And also, when the president says, well, look, this drug has been around for 30 years, people have taken it for malaria. I think I took it 30 years ago for malaria and I actually stopped because I didn't like it, as I recall. I was 17 years old at the time. But how alarming is this?
[Dr. Sanjay Gupta, Cnn Chief Medical Correspondent:] There is no evidence that this works. It's very concerning, Anderson, and, you know, I think, irresponsible because I think it's sending a very wrong message. It's a message that he has sent before on hydroxychloroquine. The concern is that, as Dr. Topol was just saying, there is no evidence that it works. There is potential harm. This flies in the face of all his own medical organizations, including the FDA which says this medication should not be used outside of a clinical trial or outside of patients who are hospitalized. There is no evidence that it works either for treatment or for prophylaxis, as you mentioned in the lead, Anderson. It makes no sense, and almost to the point where you wonder if something else is going on here that we're missing. Dr. Reiner, who worked at the White House before, sort of, brought this up, and he said, did the president have an exposure that was very significant that we don't know about and that's why they're very concerned about him? He's in his 70s. He has this evidence of heart disease. He had a significant exposure. What's going on here? It doesn't make sense and I'm worried that it sends the wrong message to people.
[Cooper:] Yes, Sanjay, I just want to go to Kaitlan Collins. I understand she has some information coming from the White House. Kaitlan?
[Collins:] Yes, so, Anderson, we just finally got a statement from the president's physician on why he is now taking hydroxychloroquine, and confirming that he is indeed taking it. This is from Dr. Sean Conley, the doctor who conducts the president's physicians and someone he references often, and he says, noting our reporting two weeks ago about the president's personal valet testing positive for coronavirus, he said that since then the president has continued to receive regular testing and has tested negative. And then getting to the good part where he talks about hydroxychloroquine, he says, "In consultation with our interagency partners and subject matter experts around the country, I have continued to monitor the myriad studies investigating potential COVID- 19 therapies, and I anticipate employing the same shared medical decision-making based on the advice at hand in the future." He says, after numerous discussions that he had with the president, Anderson, regarding the evidence for and against the use of hydroxychloroquine, quote, "We concluded the potential benefit from treatment outweighed the relative risk." Now, he is saying that though the president and in this letter tonight, he confirms the president does not have any coronavirus symptoms and he's continuing to test negative for coronavirus. So it's not clear really what treatment he's talking about that the president needs that would require him taking this medicine, though clearly the president made clear earlier, he sees it as a preventive treatment. But this is a statement from the president's doctor confirming that, yes, he is taking this drug that his own FDA has warned about taking in a non-clinical setting.
[Cooper:] Kaitlan, can you just read the second part? Because I was confused by the language there. I might have missed something that ended up with "we decided", but there was a couple of sentences before that.
[Collins:] Yes, so it's three graphs. It says talks about the presidential valet testing positive, and in the second graph, it says, "After numerous discussions he and I had regarding the evidence for and against the use of hydroxychloroquine, we concluded the potential benefit from treatment outweighed the relative risk." So it says the "potential benefit for treatment". It's not clear what hydroxychloroquine is treating for the president, since he does not have coronavirus symptoms, and they say he does not have coronavirus because he's continuously tested negative for it.
[Cooper:] Sanjay, what do you make of that statement? I mean, the doctor is saying he seemed to agree with this, whereas the president sort of indicated the, you know, the doctor said to him, "Do you want it?" And the president said "Yes," and the doctor gave it to him.
[Gupta:] That's what it sounds like. I mean, you know, that the I don't know that the doctor, the White House doctor, Dr. Conley, would have recommended this on his own. You know, he's looking at data, and if you look at the data, there's no data to suggest that you should do this, because there's no data to suggest, again, that it works as a prophylaxis, which is what it sounds like here. So, someone who has had an exposure, and now you're worried, "Am I going to get it?" So there's no evidence that it works for that. There's concerning evidence about it possibly being used as a treatment, and that you might have the significant side effects, like you were talking about with Dr. Topol. So, I don't get it. Did the president have a significant exposure, and now the White House is trying to do something prophylactically? There is just something here that still does not make sense. But what I can tell you is that, regardless, it flies in the face of all the guidance that's coming from the federal government's public health organizations themselves. It just doesn't fit.
[Cooper:] Gloria, I mean, you know, the
[Gloria Borger, Cnn Chief Political Analyst:] Anderson, I think that's the real
[Cooper:] Gloria, go ahead.
[Borger:] No, I think that's the real question. What exactly is the president's exposure here? We know that the vice president's press secretary was exposed, has coronavirus; we know that his valet had coronavirus. Clearly, the White House doctors are concerned. This is a president, as we all know, who does not even wear a mask, even though he had exposure. So, you can imagine the conversation, I'm sure, where his doctors were concerned, and maybe the president, as he said today, just suggested, "Well, how can I you know, what have I got to lose? How about taking this?" And, as Dr. Reiner pointed out and remember, he was Dick Cheney's doctor that at the White House they have all kinds of equipment there, should there they monitor the president very closely, and I'm sure they monitor him even more closely every day. So if he develops an arrhythmia, or something, they can take care of it in the way they could not with any of us if we were to take it. And again, of course, we have no idea we believe it's not preventative, but the president has all of that surrounding him.
[Cooper:] Dr. Topol, just briefly, I mean, if a patient says to you, you know, "I hear this is great. I've got a lot of friends calling me about it. I want it," is it the doctor's I mean, what do you do, as a doctor?
[Topol:] I mean, the responsible doctor would say, "No, there's no data to support this. There's a risk that we know of, and it's significant, and so we can't prescribe that." So, in a way, it's complicit. And it's really unfortunate, because it is somehow, it promotes the drug in a reckless way. And moreover, it's this whole commitment to the game changer, and all the other things that were being done for many weeks. It really is deeply concerning.
[Cooper:] Dr. Topol, I appreciate your expertise.
[Borger:] Can I just say, here's what's really reckless sure.
[Cooper:] Yes, Kaitlan Collins, thanks as well. Sanjay, stay with us. When we come back, there's breaking news on a vaccine that's showing early promise, and we'll be joined but one of the first volunteers who got it, Neal Browning, a frequent Town Hall guest. He joins us. Later, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi on the president's prescription, her own party's prescription for dealing with the economic impact of the pandemic; and the president's firing the watchdogs he doesn't like, even though he claims not to even know this one. That and more when we continue.