[Holmes:] Welcome back. Prisons are quickly becoming hotspots in the spread of coronavirus. Thousands of prisoners in both state and federal facilities have tested positive. More than 800 inmates testing positive at just one California prison complex, as did more than 2 dozen staff members. In Ohio, more than one in 5 cases in the state are inmates. Have a look at these signs in the windows of the Cook County Jail in Chicago. Inmates saying, "We matter, too," and, "Save us as the virus spreads." Back in April, Chicago's biggest jail released almost a fourth of its population over coronavirus fears. The focus on releasing those awaiting trial and low level nonviolent offenders. Joining me now from New York is Dr. Homer Venters, a former chief medical officer for the New York City jail system. Doctor, you are also the author of "Life and Death in Rikers Island." There has been a lot of talk about hotspots in meatpacking plants and cruise ships. But prisons have been a major issue because of close quarters. I've read of 2 facilities in Ohio and California where 70 percent of the inmate population tested positive. How serious is this issue in American jails?
[Dr. Homer Venters, Former Chief Medical Officer, New York City Jail System:] This is a grave issue. It is a life-threatening issue for people who are incarcerated and dying. It's also incredibly important for the nation as a whole. We have 5,000 jails and prisons in this country. Those places are going to drive the outbreak curve straight up for the entire nation. It will place the lives of those incarcerated in jeopardy as well as staff.
[Holmes:] As you said, you wrote a book about health issues at prison facilities. You were worried about this well before coronavirus. What is not in a prison in terms of facilities and supplies to stem off something like coronavirus, basic things like social distancing is impossible, obviously.
[Venters:] Two of the things that are in shortest supply are evidence based practices and transparency. We have spent decades in this country creating a silo around prisons and jails so the health care system in these places is grossly deficient. We do not know when bad outcomes occur. So when something like coronavirus hits, we cannot just copy and paste our community standards of care onto these places. The people who provide care and those who are incarcerated have not had access to evidence based care before. So you are correct to say the close quarters create a firestorm for this virus in particular. It's also important to know that groups like the CDC and states' Department of Health have been AWOL from these places for many years. So we have a lot of ground to cover just to get to barebones basics of being able to wash hands with soap and water and paper towels. Let alone figure out who is sick and who needs tests and who needs to go to the hospital.
[Holmes:] I think I read that you wrote about how, when you mentioned the CDC and major health authorities that look after people in society, it's not the case in prisons. Often it is the local sheriff who is deciding what can be life and death issues of health care.
[Venters:] That is right. To be fair to sheriffs and commissioners in correction, they are not doctors nor health administrators. But we have given them these critical jobs and often not the resources to do those jobs. But the groups that decide the quality of your care and my care are the community, they are essentially absent from these places and have been for many years.
[Holmes:] Of course one of the major issues is just how many people are incarcerated in American jails, more people per capita than any country in the world. What would you say is an immediate possible move during this current crisis? What kinds of things can be done, things like releasing nonviolent inmates, what would you recommend?
[Venters:] Sure. I think the first step is to release people who can be released because there are very high risk folks behind bars, people with health problems, if they become infected with COVID-19, will have a higher risk of dying. Secondly, in order to manage the outbreak behind bars, the facilities need space to move people around, to separate the sick people from the healthy people. Facilities cannot do that basic job if they are at 100 percent or probably 75 percent capacity. So release is job one. Not just to save the lives of high-risk people but to allow for effective management of the outbreak inside the facility.
[Holmes:] You have people who will say, they are in prison, they are there for a reason, they do not impact me. But of course, staff in these prisons have been heavily impacted as well. They go home and go back into communities. What kind of attitude would you like to see change?
[Venters:] You are right. Many of the people who have become infected with COVID-19 and who have died behind bars are staff, correctional staff. It's also important to remember that when people get sick behind bars, they go to local hospitals when they need higher level of care. This virus spreads like wildfire when it gets behind bars. So we've seen in multiple places around the country, one single jail or prison can completely overwhelm a local hospital. That is exactly the opposite of flattening the curve. When the rest of us are trying to engage in social distancing and taking all of these measures to flatten the curve, just one facility can completely overwhelm a local hospital. That is something that impacts everybody in the community.
[Holmes:] Just finally, speak to policy changes that are needed for infectious diseases. COVID-19 has highlighted some of these institutionalized issues. What needs to change after this as well?
[Venters:] Sure. Right now we have some fleeting attention from the CDC and state departments of health and other health structures that we think are evidence based. Those organizations need to stay. They need to help us improve the quality of health care but also the transparency of health services behind bars going forward, not just for COVID-19.
[Holmes:] Dr. Homer Venters, great to have you on and your insights into this, it is a important issue into the
[U.s. Venters:] Thank you for having me.
[Holmes:] When we come back, a musical legend has died. He gave us rock "n" roll, gospel, even a little bit of film. The life and times of the flamboyant, the one and only Little Richard, coming up next.