[Brianna Keilar, Cnn:] Top of the hour now, I'm Brianna Keilar. Democratic nominee Joe Biden today, calling his first debate with President Trump a national embarrassment. President Trump interrupted Joe Biden and moderator Chris Wallace more than 120 times. And in doing so, he derailed in an epic way the first opportunity for Americans to see and evaluate these candidates on their policies, side by side. Instead, voters suffered through 90 minutes of rancor and insults, most of it coming from the president though Joe Biden did call him a clown. And as painful as it was at times to listen to, what was not said on the Cleveland debate stage was hugely significant. Joe Biden was asked if he would add justices to the Supreme Court. He said he would not answer the question. And Donald Trump skirted questions about his accountability for his government's failed coronavirus response that has left more than 200,000 dead in the U.S. He also wouldn't answer questions about how he'll protect people currently covered by Obamacare. By far though, the worst moment of this most chaotic presidential debate in modern political history was a sitting American president, given the opportunity to denounce white supremacists multiple times, refusing to do so, and instead issuing a call to action to right-wing extremists.
[Chris Wallace, Presidential Debate Moderator:] Are you willing, tonight, to condemn white supremacists and militia groups and to say that they need to stand down and not add to the violence in a number of these cities, as we saw in Kenosha and as we've seen in Portland?
[Donald Trump, President Of The United States:] Sure, I'm willing to do that but
[Wallace:] Are you prepared to specifically do it? Well go ahead, sir.
[Trump:] I would say I would say almost everything I see is from the left wing, not from the right wing. If you look
[Wallace:] So what do you what are you saying?
[Trump:] I'm willing to do anything I want to see peace.
[Wallace:] Then do it, sir.
[Joe Biden , Presidential Nominee:] Say it, do it, say it.
[Trump:] Do you want to call them what do you want to call them? Give me a name, give me a name. Who would you like me to condemn?
[Wallace:] White supremacists and right-wing
[Biden:] The Proud Boys.
[Wallace:] white supremacists and
[Trump:] Proud Boys? Stand back and stand by. But I'll tell you what, I'll tell you what. Somebody's got to do something about Antifa and the left.
[Keilar:] Right now, Joe Biden is seizing on the president's failure to condemn racists, saying this a short time ago to the Proud Boys, the group that you just heard the president direct to, quote, "stand back and stand by."
[Unidentified Male:] What are your fears about the implications of the president's rhetoric and do you have a message for the Proud Boys today?
[Biden:] My message to the Proud Boys and every other white supremacist group is, cease and desist. That's not who we are, this is not who we are as Americans.
[Keilar:] All right, I want to go to Kaitlan Collins for more on this. Kaitlan, you were there at the White House. Tell us about the view of this from there.
[Kaitlan Collins, Cnn White House Correspondent:] Well, it depends on if you're hearing what they're saying publicly or what they are saying privately, Brianna. Because in public, we are hearing them praise the president's performance, say they believed he delivered a strong performance and whatnot as he was excuse me going on with the debate last night. But what we are hearing privately is just not that, Brianna. Because we are hearing from several advisors, people who work for the president, people who are supporters of the president who do not believe he did himself a service with that debate performance last night with those moderate voters that he desperately needs if he's going to win re-election in November. Instead, they found him too aggressive, they didn't believe he touted enough accomplishments as he was on the stage, and they basically said overall what we heard from them as we were talking to these people today, they didn't believe he really delivered a clear or effective line of attack against Joe Biden like he did with Hillary Clinton in 2016. Instead, he kind of tried to throw the entire kitchen sink at Joe Biden, as he was interrupting him, as they were accusing each other, making several false statements on the debate stage with a massive audience watching, Brianna. And now, we are going to it may seem that they're going to change what the next debates are going to look like, because we got this statement from the presidential Commission on Presidential Debates just a few moments ago, basically saying they are hearing what everyone else is saying about this debate, how chaotic it was last night, how hard it was to understand where the candidates were going with their comments. They said, "Last night's debate made clear that additional structures should be added to the format of the remaining debates to ensure a more orderly discussion of the issues." Now of course, what's that going to look like and whether or not the two candidates are going to agree to it before they do meet on the debate stage again in Miami, which is going to be a town hall-style event, is really another question, Brianna. And of course, you know, they say that they believe that more structure is going to make the debate more orderly, but it's still going to be the same two candidates on the stage, it's still going to be President Donald Trump, who many people believe is lashing out because he knows he's down in the polls and really he doesn't have much else left to lose here. So of course, whether or not it actually changes what the next debate is going to look like is anyone's question.
[Keilar:] All right. Yes, we are waiting to see. Kaitlan, thank you for that report from the North Lawn of the White House. CNN's Elle Reeve is joining us now, she spent time with the Proud Boys at a rally in Portland. Elle, tell us how are they responding to the president's comments to stand back and stand by?
[Elle Reeve, Cnn Correspondent:] They love it. I talked to a chairman last night, he told me that he thought stand back and stand by meant to let them keep doing what they're doing, and to let police do their job. We went to a rally in Portland this weekend to get a look at what they're doing actually looks like.
[Unidentified Male:] We're a drinking club with a patriot problem. That's the Proud Boys, I think. Our main objective is to defend the West.
[Unidentified Male: Usa! Usa! Unidentified Male:] Do I look scary with this? I would never use this to hit someone out of just a blatant attack, it would be only self- defense.
[Reeve:] We're at the Proud Boys rally in Delta Park.
[Unidentified Male:] We pledge allegiance to the flag
[Reeve:] The Proud Boys are a far-right group with ambiguous beliefs but a clear record of street fights.
[Unidentified Male:] We're not punching each other in the face.
[Reeve:] But part of the culture is to be lightly punched while naming five breakfast cereals.
[Unidentified Male:] Five breakfast cereals, yes.
[Reeve:] They planned this rally after a far-right activist was killed here a few weeks ago. Many worry that their presence in Portland will result in clashes with anti-fascist protestors, who planned their own rally as a response. Ahead of this, the governor declared a state of emergency. There's at least 300 people here, although they'd hyped up to 3,000. and the ratio of journalists to Proud Boys is very high. Are you here to get in fights with Antifa?
[Unidentified Male:] Absolutely not.
[Reeve:] But you guys are sort of dressed in the aesthetics of political violence.
[Unidentified Male:] Well, aesthetics and actually what we are is two different things. We're all wearing protective gear. Who needs a shield?
[Reeve:] It just seems like every time there is a Proud Boys event, it ends with some people getting beat up.
[Unidentified Male:] If our mere presence causes people to want to commit acts of violence, we're not afraid to defend ourselves. I know what you do, bro. A lot of people, white supremacists are nuts Who? Who that's not a white supremacist and a Nazi?
[Reeve:] The Proud Boys all tell us they're just here to drink beer and barbecue, but there have already been a couple incidents that have teetered on the edge of violence, including our own crew being threatened.
[Unidentified Female:] Get out.
[Unidentified Male:] Take
[Reeve:] Did you film that?
[Unidentified Male:] You've got something to say?
[Sam, Trump Supporter:] We had one Antifa come in here, he openly admitted he was. The camera did not capture it all, oh wow, look, they're being so violent? They didn't touch him. He wasn't bleeding, he wasn't marked up, he didn't get punched, he didn't get sprayed or nothing. And that's I told him later, I was like, hey, you're lucky.
[Reeve:] Well, if you're not here for violence, then it wouldn't be lucky, it would be the plan, right?
[Sam:] Wait. I mean, if
[Reeve:] It wouldn't be a stroke of luck if
[Sam:] Sure, but
[Reeve:] you weren't expecting to be violent.
[Sam:] But that's me, but I can't speak for everybody else.
[Reeve:] The Sheriff's Department estimated about a thousand people came to Delta Park throughout the day. Meanwhile, about a thousand counter-protestors gathered three miles away. What do you think the Proud Boys represent?
[Unidentified Female:] Fear. Fear of losing power. They feel like they're just losing everything they thought that, you know, they're the superior race. We call them the Proud Little Penis Boys. Fascism has no place in this city.
[Reeve:] And why is it important to, like, have a counter-rally to the Proud Boys? Like, why not just ignore them?
[Unidentified Male:] We're out here to show that we're not afraid, and that we're not going to, like, back down This is a counter-protest, this is a different type of night. Why do you work with the Proud Boys?
[Reeve:] At the nightly anti-police protest, people waited warily for the Proud Boys to show up. But they never came. Instead, the only clashes that occurred were the same ones between police and protestors that have happened nearly every night since May. In the end, it was just another night in Portland.
[Keilar:] And Elle Reeve, back with us now. So I mean, just explain to us what the goals of this group are, Elle, and what the demographics of this group look like.
[Reeve:] Sure. They keep their political goals pretty vague. They say they want to defend Western civilization. They're not explicitly white supremacist. It's mostly white but not entirely, mostly working class but not entirely, and a big part of it is self-help. They tell each other they're there to work out. They want to project a certain kind of masculinity.
[Keilar:] And what's the dynamic between Antifa and Proud Boys as we've seen them clashing in these counter-protests across the country?
[Reeve:] Yes, it can be pretty nuts. The Proud Boys want to intimidate Antifa, that's why they dress the way they do, that's why they talk the way they do. And to a degree, it works at rallies at protests in Portland and in Seattle, rumors would spread throughout the crowd, like, Proud Boys are coming, Proud Boys are coming. When they actually do clash, it can be explosive. A lot of times it's just one person who gets singled out and they'll be chased down a field. There's been one death, although that person was not a Proud Boy. But when you're on the ground, it's just it's very scary.
[Keilar:] Yes, no, and you really communicate that through your piece. Elle, thanks for being with us.
[Reeve:] Thank you.
[Keilar:] I want to bring in T.W. Shannon, he is the co-chair of Black Voices for Trump. All right, T.W., why did the president not condemn white supremacists?
[T.w. Shannon, Co-chair, Black Voices For Trump:] Well, Brianna, three times, the president said he would condemn white supremacy, and he's done it on a number
[Keilar:] And then he didn't.
[Shannon:] of previous occasions. I think my question is
[Keilar:] and then he didn't, T.W. Why didn't he?
[Shannon:] how many times does the president have to have this conversation? At some point, the media has to accept his answer. He's condemned it at least seven times that I can Google real quick and find it, and he's said it last night. He called out that group by name. I refuse to speak their name, I'm a little surprised that CNN is giving them such a broad
[Keilar:] No, he told them T.W., he told them oh, T.W. come on. He told them to stand back and stand by, they welcome this as a call to action and he has not
[Shannon:] He absolutely said stand by, he said stand down
[Keilar:] clarified this.
[Shannon:] stand back and that means that we're coming for you, people are coming out
[Keilar:] Stand back no, no, no, he said stand back T.W.
[Shannon:] the president has been clear, he wants law and order just a minute, you asked a question
[Keilar:] No, no, no
[Shannon:] let me answer, just a second
[Keilar:] you are not you are he said
[Shannon:] you asked me a question, you let me answer
[Keilar:] he's no he said
[Shannon:] if you're going to ask the questions, you've got to also accept the answer.
[Keilar:] stand back then let me tell you no, that's not right.
[Shannon:] The president said stand back
[Keilar:] He said stand back
[Shannon:] meaning that we're going to come after you. He said it, he said it a number of
[Keilar:] he said he did not say stand down.
[Shannon:] times but the real problem is, any time that you're talking about
[Keilar:] He said stand back and stand by, that's not
[Shannon:] white nationalism, you're not talking about the real issues that face
[Keilar:] what he said. T.W., he said, stand back and stand by.
[Shannon:] the African-American community. And it's sad. It's really sad
[Keilar:] You know what faces the African-American community is white supremacy. No
[Shannon:] that we won't talk about the real issues facing
[Keilar: T.w. -- Shannon:] the president no, I do not need you of all people to tell me what's facing my community. I'm offended by that and you should apologize for it
[Keilar:] White supremacy the I'm not apologizing for the Trump administration no
[Shannon:] White supremacy is an issue, but that's not what's causing
[Keilar: -- T.w. -- Shannon:] issues in the black community. The real issue
[Keilar:] I'm not apologizing for the fact that the Trump administration
[Shannon:] facing the black community you should apologize, for you don't tell me what's facing my community. It's offensive, and you should apologize for it.
[Keilar:] says that white the Trump the Trump administration says that white supremacy is the greatest threat to the U.S. That is the Trump administration. Should they apologize?
[Shannon:] The Trump administration has condemned white supremacy. If you're bringing up that point, why bring up last night's point? The real issues facing the debate last night should have been, what's Joe Biden's record with the African-American community? it's abysmal, he's done absolutely nothing in 47 years to move the community forward. In fact
[Keilar:] The Trump administration says that white supremacy
[Shannon:] he's the guy I'm sorry, excuse me, let me finish my statement. He's the guy
[Keilar:] that says that white supremacy is the greatest threat.
[Shannon:] who said that in 1994, in 1994, he passed a crime bill which locked up people that looked like me and said that we were threats to the community because of how we looked. That's what the debate should have been.
[Keilar:] T.W., why can't why couldn't the president condemn white supremacy? OK, let's let's let's
[Shannon:] The president said it three times, he condemned it three times last night
[Keilar:] All right
[Shannon:] he said it. They asked him, would you condemn white supremacy? He said yes, he said it three times. He said, give me a group.
[Keilar:] He said sure.
[Shannon:] He named the group by name, and he
[Keilar:] He said sure, and then he didn't do it.
[Shannon:] told them to stand back.
[Keilar:] He said he
[Shannon:] That was absolutely the right thing to do. The president said it, he did do
[Keilar:] It was a call to action.
[Shannon:] and he's done it seven times before.
[Keilar:] All right, I want to I just
[T.w. -- Shannon:] the problem is you won't accept the answer.
[Keilar:] you asked me this is why it's important the president condemns it, because he raises many questions in his
[Shannon:] Absolutely, and he has. He did it last night and he's done it seven other times before.
[Keilar:] excuse me, stop interrupting me. T.W. hey, we're not at a presidential debate, T.W. Can you listen to my question, OK? This is why
[Shannon:] You won't let me answer your question.
[Keilar:] I'm going to this is my question, I'm here to ask the questions. This is what
[Shannon:] And I'm here to answer if you'll let me.
[Keilar:] he please listen. This is what he has done over time. In the 1970s, he discriminated against black tenants. In the 1980s, he called for the death penalty for the Central Park Five, who you know were exonerated. In the '90s, he was fined for discriminating against black employees. In 2005, he pitched a version of "The Apprentice" that pitted blacks against whites. In 2011, he pushed the Obama birther conspiracy. In 2015, he called Mexican immigrants rapists who are bringing crime. In 2015, he called for a Muslim ban. In 2016, he claimed Hispanic judges couldn't be impartial. In 2016, he also refused to condemn former KKK leader David Duke. In 2016
[Shannon:] Where's the question? I'm sorry
[Keilar:] he said fine, I'm almost there.
[Shannon:] I thought this wasn't a debate. Where's the question?
[Keilar:] I'm asking the question.
[Shannon:] Did I miss it?
[Keilar:] This is part of the question. We're only at 2016
[Shannon:] OK, let me hear the question please.
[Keilar:] The question is and I will continue 2017, he said there are fine people on both sides in Charlottesville. In 2018, he
[Shannon:] That's not what he said, that has been debunked by your own news station, that's false.
[Keilar:] called NFL players protesting police brutality "sons of bitches" not true. Two thousand eighteen, referred to Haiti and African nations as "shithole countries." Two thousand twenty, called COVID-19 the China virus and the Kung Flu. Also same year this year, suggested that Senator Kamala Harris isn't a U.S. citizen. He is working to stop diversity training at federal agencies. He's working to roll back fair housing rules to save suburbs, he's warning of an invasion and that's pretty clear, what he's talking about and he is defending the Confederate flag despite what the Pentagon has said that it wants. So you say that he has condemned the that he has condemned white supremacy, I think you're being very liberal in your distinction of that. But you heard what I just said. And I have to be honest, I had a list to go through here and there's a bunch of stuff I couldn't get to because this list is so long. This is why he has to condemn white supremacy, and he is not doing it adequately and you know that.
[Shannon:] The problem is, the president has done it on several occasions. He's done it seven times that you can Google for yourself I
[Keilar:] All right, let's play we're going to play last night, let's play last night.
[Shannon:] hold on, let me answer the question, I listened to you, you've got to at least let me answer the question.
[Keilar:] No, you're not answering the question.
[Shannon:] Last night the president said three times
[Keilar:] Play the sound bite, this is what he said last night.
[Shannon:] I'm sorry, you're not allowing me to play you're not allowing me to answer the question.
[Keilar:] I want our viewers to know what he said last night, and then we will discuss. That's why you're hear, let's listen.
[Shannon:] Let's play it.
[Trump:] Who would you like me to condemn?
[Wallace:] White supremacists and right-wing
[Biden:] The Proud Boys.
[Wallace:] white supremacists and
[Trump:] Proud Boys? Stand back and stand by.
[Keilar:] It's been it's a call to action. He did not
[Shannon:] The question was asked in the context of violence in the street.
[Keilar:] condemn them.
[Shannon:] They the president was asked, will you condemn? He said, yes, I will, give me a group. He named them by name, and he
[Keilar:] He didn't say yes I will.
[Shannon:] said it, and he said it seven times. In fact, just last week I was in Atlanta where the president rolled out his platinum plan where he called
[Keilar:] He did not condemn, he didn't condemn.
[Shannon:] the KKK as a hate group. he said that it should be, and it should actually be he said it seven times before. The problem is, the media won't accept the narrative. And the real issue the problem the reason why this is so hurtful to me as an African-American is because there are a whole lot of other issues facing our community that don't get talked about. Let's talk about the homelessness rate, let's talk about job creation. That's what the president's talking about
[Keilar:] Let's talk about unemployment.
[Shannon:] so we can talk about white nationalism all the day
[Keilar:] Let's
[Shannon:] that you let's talk about unemployment.
[Keilar:] OK, black unemployment, T.W. I would like to, black unemployment, right now.
[Shannon:] The president delivered the lowest black
[Keilar:] Hey let's talk about it.
[Shannon:] unemployment in the history of the country.
[Keilar:] Thirteen percent, white unemployment, seven
[Shannon:] He's done it in the history of the country.
[Keilar:] Thirteen percent, white unemployment, 7.3 percent. That's this month. All right, that's in the middle of
[Shannon:] So it took a pandemic for the president's unemployment rate for blacks to get to where it was under the Obama administration.
[Keilar:] Let's talk about the pandemic.
[Shannon:] Before the pandemic
[Keilar:] Black cases of the pandemic, 2.6 times higher than for whites
[Shannon:] before the pandemic, African-Americans had the lowest unemployment rate
[Keilar:] You know what,
[T.w. -- Shannon:] in the history of the country, that's a fact.
[Keilar:] They have twice, 13 percent
[Shannon:] You know, if you're going to have me on as a guest, you've got to let me talk and answer the questions.
[Keilar:] You're saying a bunch of crap.
[Shannon:] If you're going to ask the questions and then answer them, that doesn't make sense.
[Keilar:] No, I'm telling you. Look
[Shannon:] This sounds a lot like the debate from Joe Biden last night.
[Keilar:] Well, you're acting like Donald Trump. I think that if you look at the numbers, black unemployment and I don't just think this, this is verified by statistics, I think you're well aware of them, by the Trump administration 13 percent in September 2020, which is where we are right now. White unemployment, 7.3 percent. You said it took a pandemic? OK, well here we are, we're in a pandemic. A president deals with what he is handed. If you look at
[Shannon:] Absolutely.
[Keilar:] even more importantly than unemployment, you look at lives? Black cases, 2.6 times higher than whites. Black hospitalizations, 4.7 times higher than whites. Black deaths, 2.1 times higher than whites. Spin that.
[Shannon:] I'm sorry, is there a question in that? Because the reality is
[Keilar:] Can you what is your reaction?
[Shannon:] President Trump, but for his leadership, we would have had more than two million deaths, and many of those would have been African-American if we had listened to Joe Biden. It was
[Keilar:] That's if you did jack squat.
[Shannon:] President Trump who it was
[Keilar:] He's the president. President Trump
[Shannon:] President Trump who stood up and said, let's close the border, let's make sure that we're not allowing people to come in from Wuhan, China
[Keilar:] Too late.
[Shannon:] into our country. President Trump did that, it was President
[Keilar:] He closed it too late.
[Shannon:] Vice President Joe Biden who said he was racist and xenophobic for saying it. But the idea that you would try to lay at President Trump's feet
[Keilar:] These are not mutually exclusive, that he was too late.
[Shannon:] the fact that people died from a pandemic? I think that unconscionable. You should be embarrassed for promulgating that nonsense. The reality is this, we are facing a pandemic. And because of the president's leadership, we're actually moving forward with the economy. The economy has grown by leaps and bounds since March.
[Keilar:] Black unemployment, 13 percent,
[T.w. -- Shannon:] You look at what's really happening in the economy, it's the Democrat black unemployment is 13 before the pandemic, it was less than three percent, the lowest in the history of the country.
[Keilar:] We would all like to go back in a time machine, T.W., but we are in a pandemic, I'm not sure if you noticed
[Shannon:] We would love to, we would love to do that but
[Keilar:] black unemployment, 13 percent. White unemployment, 7.3 percent.
[Shannon:] the reality is we've got to move forward. And Joe Biden hasn't offered any plan to do that. Joe Biden had offered one plan. But the real question is, why don't we talk about Joe Biden's record on African-Americans? I haven't heard you quote any of those statistics. The reason is, is because it's abysmal. He doesn't have one. Joe Biden hasn't done anything for the African-American community in 47 years, but lock us up and tell me that people that look like me, that we're a threat. And that's a reality, and that's something that the media doesn't want to report on. President Trump has been undoing the chaos that Joe Biden created in this country, and he's going to have four more years to continue to undo the chaos that was created under the Obama administration, that's just a fact.
[Keilar:] I just would like to point to I would like to point, T.W., to the record that I just put up. You talked about 47 years? Please put up the full screen again. This is the record of President Trump when he was a private citizen and when he was president. This is his record right here, T.W. This is his record, and I know
[Shannon:] Under that I can't see the record, but I will tell you this
[Keilar:] you'll point to things excuse me I already read it to you,
[I -- Shannon:] when he was a private citizen
[Keilar:] no, no, no, I'm saying I look,
[I -- Shannon:] he was receiving awards from
[Keilar: T.w. -- Shannon:] Jesse Jackson, and receiving awards from Al Sharpton because of his commitment to the African-American community
[Keilar:] when he was a private citizen, he was discriminating against
[Shannon:] this nonsense
[Keilar:] black tenants, he was calling for the death penalty
[Shannon:] about him being a racist, did not come
[Keilar:] for innocent black men, he was fined for discriminating against black employees.
[Shannon:] into reality until he started running for president of the United States.
[Keilar:] He
[Ok, T.w. -- Shannon:] This is being promulgated by the media, it's just not true, it's not.
[Keilar:] What is not true of what I read to you? I'm sorry some I don't
[Shannon:] What's not true is that President Trump is not a racist, he has done more for the African-American community
[Keilar:] he discriminated against tenants.
[Shannon:] than any president in the history. He is the first president to create Economic Empowerment Zones to say, you know what, the real issue facing the African-American community, it's not racism. The real issue facing us is job opportunity, access to a quality job, access to quality education. Those are the real issues that are going to put food on the table.
[Keilar:] Black Americans are not doing well. Look, you even know and even on the FIRST STEP Act, which I know is what you're referring to when you're talking about
[Shannon:] Black Americans weren't doing well long before President Trump became president, that's a reality.
[Keilar:] which Mitch McConnell blocked criminal justice reform under President Obama, that is a fact. Mitch McConnell blocked it by the admission of Republicans, when they explained why that was done.
[Shannon:] The criminal justice reform was to fix Joe Biden's 1994 bill, that's what we're trying to clean up. That's the issue.
[Keilar:] And this FIRST STEP Act, this FIRST STEP Act is unevenly working. In fact at this point in time, when you look at it, you actually have
[Shannon:] You're right, it's helping 90 percent African-Americans, it is, it's very much
[Keilar:] you have hundreds they're
[Shannon:] slanted towards the progress for African-Americans.
[Keilar:] there are hundreds of people who have looked who have seen sentence reduction only to face reincarceration, many of them for drug crimes. I'm sure you're aware of this and this is coming
[Shannon:] Brianna, you can tell this false narrative to yourself over and over
[Keilar:] excuse me, this is no, no, this is true, this
[Shannon:] but that doesn't make it true.
[Keilar:] is what's happening. This is what's happening
[Shannon:] The reality is
[Keilar:] this is what's happening under the
[Doj -- Shannon:] where is Joe Biden's plan on criminal justice reform?
[Keilar: T.w. -- T.w. -- Shannon:] Did have you heard of it? I didn't hear you mention no, no
[Keilar:] are you are you a surrogate for him? I'm pretty sure you're not familiar with it.
[Shannon:] seriously, where is Joe Biden's plan on criminal justice reform?
[Keilar:] Please stop interrupting me, I'd like to discuss
[Shannon:] Pretty sure I'm familiar with what? Sorry, I didn't hear you. What's the question?
[Keilar:] with you the the first the FIRST STEP Act, it has hundreds of
[Shannon:] I'm very familiar. In fact, I'm familiar with one of the first people
[Keilar: -- T.w. -- T.w. -- T.w. -- Shannon:] who benefited from the FIRST I've talked to them personally. Have you?
[Keilar:] Yes, are you familiar with the people who have benefited only to face reincarceration? there's hundreds of them, and this is because of very questionable interpretation by Trump's attorney general, Bill Barr. That is what's going on. This is being unevenly worked out, this FIRST STEP Act. It has big problems. You
[Shannon:] Brianna, that is so that is so unfair and unconscionable that you would try to say because there's a recidivism
[Keilar:] It's factual, it's you may think it's unfair, but it's factual.
[Shannon:] rate that people are going back to prison that the FIRST STEP Act
[Keilar:] It's not recidivism.
[Shannon:] isn't a success.
[Keilar:] It is not. It is a reading it's a reading about
[Shannon:] I will tell you, they're not all going back to prison.
[Keilar:] it is not, it's a reading
[Shannon:] There are a lot of African-Americans who get out of prison because of the FIRST STEP Act
[Keilar:] it's not recidivism, it's not recidivism.
[Shannon:] who are doing well.
[Keilar:] It's not that is so
[Shannon:] That's a fact, and you can't change that fact. Facts are a tough thing
[Keilar:] that's not a fact. No, that's not.
[Shannon:] because they don't change.
[Keilar:] T.W., it's not a fact
[Shannon:] Even on national television. It is a fact. It is absolutely a fact. In fact, one of them they were highlighted
[Keilar:] Recidivism, that's not what I'm talking about, I'm not talking about recidivism.
[Shannon:] at the Republican National Convention, we've talked to them.
[Keilar:] I'm not talking
[T.w. -- Shannon:] I'm sorry, you're talking about people who were released from prison and going back to prison? That's recidivism.
[Keilar:] No, listen no it's not, let me explain to you what I'm talking about, you seem to be misunderstanding what I'm saying.
[Shannon:] Yes, it is. I was speaker of the house for the state of Oklahoma
[Keilar:] No, no, no, listen fantastic
[Shannon:] and we enacted criminal justice reform. I know it well.
[Keilar:] good for you, very good for you, sir. No. Because what I'm talking about is folks who have been seen sentence reduction, and then there's been a reading by the Department of Justice about the amount of drugs that they may or may not have had, and then it is applied retroactively, not based on what they were convicted of. And they find themselves possibly reincarcerated or reincarcerated. This is not recidivism, this has to do with the original crime, and that is not recidivism. T.W. Shannon, I wish I could say it was a pleasure having you on. Have a great day, thank you.
[Shannon:] I wish I could say the same.
[Keilar:] Next, President Trump, throwing nearly every health experts that works in his administration under the bus, that includes the man that he chose to lead the back-scene effort. Plus, he claimed there had been no issues from his massive rallies? We're going to fact-check that. And later, the president claims that health care is, quote, "already fixed"? We're going to dig into what happens if his efforts to strike down Obamacare are successful.