[Whitfield:] All right, welcome back. Now that we have learned that Michael Flynn's lawyers have stopped talking with the president's lawyers about the Russia investigation, there is growing speculation that the former national security adviser is playing "Let's Make a Deal" with the Special Investigator Robert Mueller's team. Such a move could have major political and legal ramifications. Joining me right now to discuss the possible legal impacts of Flynn, potentially Flynn flipping, Avery Friedman, civil rights attorney and law professor in Cleveland, and Richard Herman, a New York criminal defense attorney and law professor, joining us from Las Vegas. Good to see you all. Happy Thanksgiving weekend.
[Avery Friedman, Civil Rights Attorney & Law Professor:] Good to see you, Fred.
[Richard Herman, Criminal Defense Attorney & Law Professor:] Good to see you, Fredricka. Happy Thanksgiving.
[Whitfield:] All right, so Richard, to you first, you know what are the chances that you believe, you know, Flynn's lawyers are cooperating with the Mueller team because they may be trying to, you know, cut a deal, especially after what, six months ago, Flynn said, you know, we have an interesting story, if only he would be granted immunity, but now potentially could there be some real deal making in the works?
[Herman:] Well, admittedly, Fred, it's all conjecture right now because we don't know. But based upon my experience in complex multidefendant federal prosecutions, this behavior, by Flynn and his attorneys, would indicate to me that, either, one, they already have a deal and he's been cooperating for months or, two, they're looking to make a deal, and so they want to make Mueller and his team happy and they want to send a signal that they are with the government now, they're not helping Trump or Trump's people. This is very serious, Fred, because this was the first three-star retired general to align himself with Trump. He was there during the campaign. He was there during the transition. He was there for 24 days after the after Trump was inaugurated, you know. And here he was. Remember visions of him standing on the stage, rah, rah, rah, lock her up, lock her up. Ain't that a bitch, because she might get locked up now. He has the government has slam-dunk prosecutions against him for financial foreign disclosure violations, Fred. It's open and shut. They have him criminally. They can get him, slam dunk. It's his son, that's who he's going to look to protect here. And that's why he's going to make a deal. And we'll see what information he's going to give up.
[Whitfield:] Avery, let's keep it clean. So now what about talk about immunity. Is that something that would still be on the table, if he were cooperating, even though months ago that was not something that the Mueller team would entertain? Is it ever too late to be granted immunity?
[Friedman:] It's never too late. I don't think we're going to see immunity. The deal here is going to be, what extent he's going to be behind bars in my judgement. And I'm also in agreement. The real provocative crime here, beyond failing to register, failing to disclose, making false statements, is this question of so-called extra judicial rendition, which in layman's terms means a possible kidnap in conjunction with Turkey and getting their hands on a cleric, the Turkish cleric, who's holed up in the Poconos right now. So when you look at the four major felonies and you couple it with that, and the fear of impacting Junior, Michael Flynn Jr, there are very, very good reasons that Michael Flynn has got to do a deal. Whether it's going to result in jail time is a completely separate issue. I have very little doubt we're going to be looking for a deal. And he's going to be talk about what is going on in the White House.
[Herman:] That's right.
[Whitfield:] Right. Because, Richard, the primary focus was to be about, you know, Russia, its influence, et cetera, on the U.S. elections, how complicit the Trump campaign was but now underscoring the whole turkey connection, the cleric, I mean, it has been broadened out considerably.
[Friedman:] Sure.
[Herman:] OK, that's a side show for the Mueller investigation and that is problematic and there may be criminal violations with that. But what Mueller is focusing on with Flynn is Flynn's meeting with Ambassador Kislyak with Jared Kushner
[Friedman:] That's right.
[Herman:] where the issue of sanctions was discussed. Because if there was a quid pro quo, Fred, and if Flynn testifies that Trump told him, you tell the Russians, if they help us win the election, I will ease up the sanctions, that's what Mueller wants here for the collusion. That's why they're doing that. We'll see how far Flynn goes. Because, listen, it could go anywhere for him. With getting his son off the hook. And him getting, you know, a few years in prison, ten years in prison or no time in prison. It depends upon substantial assistance.
[Friedman:] That will never happen.
[Whitfield:] And to help get off the hook, you know, to borrow your language, it really does mean leading to a bigger name, right?
[Friedman:] Yes. Well, sure.
[Herman:] He has to give up he's to give up Jared Kushner. That's who he's going to give up.
[Friedman:] We don't know that. We don't know that.
[Herman:] Jared Kushner. But that meeting We don't know anything, Avery
[Friedman:] That's right.
[Herman:] but it's conjecture here based on the facts and meeting with Kislyak and the failure to turn over documents and failure to comply with subpoenas
[Friedman:] Wait a minute, failure to turn over something is not a crime
[Herman:] They're hiding something here. It's going to come out. Flynn's going to tie it together for Mueller.
[Whitfield:] OK, Avery?
[Herman:] This is very serious for Trump.
[Friedman:] I think that December meeting, that December meeting with Sergey Kislyak, the ambassador, is going to be critical, because why on earth would Michael Flynn, after meeting with the FBI, lie about that? So the bottom line, with all the other times, failure to register, failure to disclose compensation, I mean, this is serious. And whether he's motivated to save his son or not, I think, is part of the motivation to say, hey, look, I don't know how much time I have to do, but limit it. I will turn somebody over. I will flip. I think that's exactly what we will see.
[Whitfield:] So is the White House sweating right now?
[Friedman:] Got to be.
[Herman:] Yes.
[Whitfield:] Richard?
[Herman:] Big time, Fred. I don't care what Sekulow says. He is wrong. He is there to make Trump feel good. This is very, very serious. Because Flynn also in addition to collusion, has information concerning obstruction. That's the number-one count they're going to get Trump on, I believe. And Flynn was right there in the middle of that, Fred. I'm telling you, he is going to give a treasure trove of information to Mueller. It's dangerous for Trump.
[Friedman:] We will see.
[Herman:] Very dangerous.
[Whitfield:] We will see. Thank you so much. Avery Friedman, Richard Herman always great to see you. I am grateful to see you this Thanksgiving holiday.
[Herman:] Great to see you, Fred.
[Whitfield:] All right. Thanks so much. Still so much more straight ahead in the NEWSROOM. But first, in this week's new episode of "PARTS UNKNOWN," the heel of the boot draws Anthony Bourdain back in time as he visits the largely untouched landscapes and colorful locals of southern Italy.
[Anthony Bourdain, Cnn Host, Parts Unknown:] Despite its uncanny beauty, sunny Italy's Palou and Basilicata regions are some of the least populated, least visited, least known parts of the country. A mix of sea, hills, valleys and rich earth. The food here is Italian but completely its own. [on camera]: Little garlic, parsley, some kind of fish, Fu main, pasta. That's it. Oh. Incredible. I've never been to this part of Italy before. Lot of blue here, light browns and ochres and white. I don't know. You look at this place, it demands a big space. As I walk around I'm always humming with these stores. For a few dollars more, once upon a time.