[Dobbs:] Tonight, our special report "The Great American Giveaway." Tonight, we're looking at college tuitions. A number of states not only allow illegal aliens to attend their universities, but they allow them to pay less in tuition. Lisa Sylvester is here tonight with the report Lisa.
[Lisa Sylvester, Cnn Correspondent:] Lou, states are required by law to provide an elementary and a high school education to illegal aliens. But the question now, are illegal aliens also entitled to a college education?
[Sylvester:] There are 64,000 student enrolled at Northern Virginia Community College. School officials estimate, as many as 100 are not legal residents. For Virginia's attorney general, that's 100 too many. He's issued a rule advising all state colleges and universities to deny admission to people who cannot prove their immigration status.
[Jerry Kilgore, Virginia Attorney General:] We've just always said that it's not too much to ask of someone, before they take advantage of the benefits of this society, that they prove they have obeyed the laws.
[Macvicar:] Virginia is the only state in the country to take such action. Several states have been moving in the other direction, not only admitting aliens, but also granting them lower in-state tuition rates. Illegal immigrants are eligible for in-state tuition in eight states. As many as 20 others are considering doing the same. But critics say the policy works against American citizens.
[Mark Krikorian, Center For Immigration Studies:] A U.S. citizen from a different state applying to William & Mary or University of Virginia has to pay a much higher rate than an illegal immigrant who happens to have set up resident within the state of Virginia.
[Macvicar:] Civil rights groups are pushing for more benefits for illegal aliens, filing a lawsuit protesting Virginia's no-admissions policy. The Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational Fund says, making education affordable and accessible increases the country's tax base and lowers public spending.
[Tisha Tallman, Mexican American Legal Defense And Educational Fund:] The bottom line is, if we invest in all of our children, it's going to produce economic benefits for our community. And it's also just sound policy.
[Sylvester:] Republican Senator Orrin Hatch has sponsored a bill that would give all illegal students right to college in-state tuition and access to hundreds of millions of dollars in federal Pell grants, provided they can show they have been in the country for at least five years. But opponents are saying that this essentially puts American citizens and illegal aliens on the same footing and it's essentially the U.S. government would say it's OK to break the law Lou.
[Dobbs:] In this instance, it's not really putting them on equal footing. They're actually giving advantage to illegal aliens...
[Sylvester:] They are.
[Dobbs:] ... over, again, hard-working, middle-class American families, who don't have the representation.
[Sylvester:] Indeed. And that's one of the very controversial things about the Orrin Hatch bill, is whether or not it would essentially give access, not just access to illegal aliens, but also the tuition breaks.
[Dobbs:] Lisa Sylvester, thank you very much. While the United States gives away education to illegal aliens, many U.S. companies continue to give away thousands and thousands of American jobs, exporting them overseas, as we've been reporting here for months. In addition, many companies recruit overseas workers to come to this country to fill high-skilled positions on what is purportedly a temporary basis. My next guest wants future U.S. trade agreements to exclude the visa program that allows foreign workers to take those jobs away from Americans. Senator Dianne Feinstein joins us tonight from Capitol Hill. Senator, good to have you with us.
[Sen. Dianne Feinstein , California:] Good to be here, Lou. Thank you.
[Dobbs:] You have been at the forefront of the issue of the relationship between immigration and trade. And what many of our viewers and I would hazard to guess that most Americans don't realize is that the U.S. trade representative in effect has the ability to set immigration policy, and greater power than the U.S. Senate, for example.
[Feinstein:] Yes, that's right. I didn't really understand that until this Chilean-Singaporean trade agreement which essentially provided that nearly 7,000 people, not necessarily from those two countries, but working for companies owned by either Singaporean people or Chilean people could come here under what's called an L- visa. Now, the plenary power for immigration, which means the ability to make law with respect to immigration, rests with the Congress of the United States, not with an appointed trade representative. And we can't change those trade bills with fast track. Those bills go through the way they see it takes place, and that's the case. I think that's wrong. There are apparently 73,000 people that have come in under NAFTA in this same way. We have a big H-1B workers program, a big L-visa program. So we're taking a large number of foreign workers every year. And I think during good days good economic times that may be acceptable to people. But I can tell you in San Jose, which is the heart of Silicon Valley, you have 7 percent unemployment, you have 70,000 high-tech workers without a job. And what happens is, the company will hire an H-1B foreign worker at a third the cost, and that American worker hits the bricks. That's wrong.
[Dobbs:] Senator, you're showing some considerable political courage in even taking up this issue, as you well know, because when one talks about this issue, and confronts it directly, they're accused of being xenophobic, they're accused of being racist. And the simple fact is, none of our or almost none of our politicians have wanted our elected officials have wanted to deal with this issue. But the facts are incontrovertible. We are losing American jobs to foreign workers through the H-1B and L-1 programs.
[Feinstein:] Well, there's another problem. I think the one negative economic indicator in this recovery is jobs. And two things are going on. One is downsizing, and the other is outsourcing. So American companies are doing both. And in the outsourcing, they're sending jobs abroad, hiring people abroad. And I think we have to watch this very carefully because it's very strange with the indicators as they are that the job market is actually declining. There are fewer jobs today, permanent jobs.
[Dobbs:] And yet, Senator, we will hear economists say, and many representatives of multinationals, that what we're talking about is higher productivity. We're talking about greater efficiency. But, Senator, I wonder if perhaps you, like me, find it interesting that when we hear these remarks about productivity, we hear about efficiency, whether we're talking about outsourcing or bringing in H-1B or L-1 visa holders, that the result is lower labor costs to those corporations in every instance. Have we reached the point where corporate America thinks it can continue to let me put it politely kid the American people and our lawmakers that productivity and efficiency is a sufficient guise for what they're really saying is, "cheap labor"?
[Feinstein:] I don't think so anymore. The H-1 visa the last year was $197,000. This October, a few days ago, it dropped down to $65,000 for the year. There's been some talk of raising it up, but I think in view of the sentiments that you're expressing, people on the Hill are beginning to realize, "Oh, oh, let's just leave it where it is. Let's not touch it." Now in the interests of full disclosure, I have to tell you that I'm a co-sponsor of the Dream Act, which is what you just opened your segment with. And this is a little different. And I just want a moment to make that case.
[Dobbs:] We'll give you a well, I was about to be too generous because my producer would murder me. You have a moment, Senator.
[Feinstein:] All right. The moment is this. These are students who are sixteen who have been in this country at least five years. They graduate from high school. Now, they are here they have been here, some of them, since they were 1 or 2 years old. The question really becomes: Is America better off if those students are able to get an education and go to college? And that's the in-state tuition issue. I have a family, for example, that I'm trying to help in the Central Valley of California, here for 20 years mother, good mother; housewife; five children, three born here, but two brought over. They are...
[Dobbs:] Senator, if I may interrupt you, there's no doubt and we understand you come from the state of California where illegal immigration is a third of the problem at least in this entire country of 700,000 a year.
[Feinstein:] It's a big problem.
[Dobbs:] We're not talking about in any way when we talk about this issue and I don't believe anyone is a heartless look at people, good people, who are here who need some help, who require frankly some study on the part of our policy-makers.
[Feinstein:] Good, I'm glad to hear that.
[Dobbs:] But let me say further that don't you think that our immigration policy should begin with an intelligent and broad approach to make a determination?
[Feinstein:] Absolutely.
[Dobbs:] It seems irrational for the United States Senate, the United States Congress and this president not to address the issue of a general immigration policy.
[Feinstein:] Well, my view is this: There is no country that takes more immigrants a year than the United States, more than all of the other industrialized countries put together.
[Dobbs:] Absolutely.
[Feinstein:] And we do so legally. Therefore everything we do should be to create not to create a magnet for illegal immigration. And I believe that very strongly. We're a nation of the laws. We shouldn't selectively enforce the laws. We shouldn't turn our back on this law or that law.
[Dobbs:] Senator, which is precisely what this country's doing. Our borders we have 700,000 illegal aliens at the least crossing our borders in a time of a national security threat, that is, the war on terror. We have at this estimate, the most current estimate 10 million illegal aliens living in this country. We gave an amnesty in 1986. We have a situation in which we have not made a determination about we don't even know what the impact is from the U.S. government on the labor market. We have a number of myths floating around, but we don't have certainty. That just seems, does it not to you, to be intolerable?
[Feinstein:] Well, the problem is, you've got to have infrastructure for people too. When classrooms get up at 40, 50 a class, and schools up elementary schools 1,000-plus students. Homes, people cannot find jobs, they cannot find...
[Dobbs:] You're describing your state.
[Feinstein:] I am, exactly then what develops in the people is a backlash, and that's what we've got to avoid. And that's why sound immigration policy, based on the economics of the times, makes a great deal of sense.
[Dobbs:] Senator, you make a great deal of sense. I hope you'll come back soon to talk about this very important issue.
[Feinstein:] I'd love to. Thank you.
[Dobbs:] Senator Dianne Feinstein, thank you. That brings us to the subject of tonight's poll question. Do you think illegal aliens should have the right to demand in-state tuition at our colleges and universities, yes or no? Please vote at CNN.comLou. We'll have the results later in the broadcast. Coming up here: What will it take to spur growth for American companies and to create jobs for millions of Americans who are out of work? Congressman Bill Thomas, the chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee, says he has the answer. And he joins us next to talk about his answer and a few others. Stay with us, please.