[Camerota:] A former CIA station chief who spent five years in Moscow is speaking out about Russia's efforts to undermine the U.S. election. He's now detailing a possible motive behind the meeting of Donald Trump Jr. and that Russian lawyer. In a "New York Times" op-ed, he writes: The clearest evidence that this was a Russian influence operation is the trail of bread crumbs the Kremlin seems to have deliberately left leading from Trump Tower to the Kremlin. This operation was meant to be discovered. That CIA that former CIA station chief, Daniel Hoffman, joins us. Daniel, great to have you here in studio.
[Daniel Hoffman, Former Cia Station Chief:] Thank you.
[Camerota:] We should mention that you have retired, which is why we can now blow your cover and say that you were in the CIA for many decades.
[Hoffman:] Correct.
[Camerota:] OK. What do you mean that meeting between the Russian lawyer and Don Jr. and others was meant to be discovered by that it was planted basically with a trail of bread crumbs by the Kremlin?
[Hoffman:] I think the evidence from that meeting points to an effort by the Kremlin to influence rather than some sort of a covert back channel for collusion. Vladimir Putin wants to soil our democratic institutions, and I think he found the best way to do that would be to tie us to the Kremlin.
[Camerota:] But it seems that you're suggesting in your op-ed that the Trump team were serving as dupes, basically. They were unwitting pawns. They didn't know what they were walking into. So, it wasn't active collusion, though Don Jr. said I le it when offered the dirt on Hillary Clinton that may or may not have ever been produced, but this is what the Kremlin does, they try to find unwitting pawns.
[Hoffman:] I think I think what Vladimir Putin did, remember, his former experience was serving as a KGB offer and serving as director of the FSB. So, espionage is quivering his bow, and it's not just about recruiting sources. It's also about running these sort of operations. I think what he felt was this would be the sort of bait that maybe someone might not want to refuse. And so, I think they took a gamble and won out and the meeting took place and that was really all that they needed.
[Camerota:] One of the things I thought so interesting in your op-ed is you say one of the favorite Russian tactics, Kremlin tactics, spy tactics, is to dangle something that looks to be of great value for free, and that that should be an instant red flag. So, in other words, I'm going to just hand overall this great opposition research, this dirt on Hillary Clinton for free, and that that really in real life rarely happens and that should have set off some alarm bells.
[Hoffman:] Yes, I think it would have set off alarm bells for Russians who grew up in Russia and understand what this is all about, but it might not for us in the United States. You know, the other formative experience in Vladimir Putin's life is he's a black belt in judo, and that one of the key principles in judo is to use your opponent's strength against them. In the United States, we have freedom of the press and we don't necessarily think the way a Russian might about this idea that someone was baiting you with something.
[Camerota:] OK, just help me to understand one more time, the point of all this. If it wasn't active collusion and they wanted it to be discovered, if the Kremlin, in fact, wanted us to follow this trail of bread crumbs, why?
[Hoffman:] Vladimir Putin has his sight set on March 2018, when he will stand for election. And he knows many of his opponents, many of whom will risk their lives by protesting on the streets of Russia as they have before, derive much of their ideological inspiration from the United States. And I think that's why Vladimir Putin wants to soil our electoral process and democratic institution.
[Camerota:] President Trump has said, basically, I'm paraphrasing, yes, maybe Russia tried to meddle, but so do other countries. Is Russia in a different category?
[Hoffman:] I think Russia is in a pretty special category when it comes to their sophisticated capability for intruding into our cyberspace. And we've seen that. We've seen that in our efforts to target our infrastructure and target our news sites. They're very good at what they do.
[Camerota:] You spent 30 years in the CIA, is that right, focused on Russia?
[Hoffman:] I spent the bulk of my career focused on Russia, yes.
[Camerota:] OK. So, from where you sit, in your expertise, since Russia will always try to launch disinformation campaigns and try to upset our democracy, what's the best way to stop them?
[Hoffman:] I think one of the best ways to stop them is to be transparent about what they're doing so our citizens are armed with the knowledge that this is a Russian tactic and this is what they're trying to achieve. I think it starts there, frankly.
[Camerota:] But meaning that the more we talk about it openly, the more people will understand when they're receiving disinformation? I mean, what do you mean by transparency?
[Hoffman:] I think being transparent and honest about what the Russian tactics are, the full all of their intelligence efforts to target us in this country, whether those are human intelligence efforts. They've got lots of Russian intelligence officers in this country, ruthlessly targeting our people here and their efforts to target us through cyberspace as well. I think we need to educate our people about that threat. I think that's the first step. And then we need to counter them and counter their themes.
[Camerota:] And do you think the White House has done a good job of being transparent and presenting that evidence to the American people?
[Hoffman:] I'll leave it to others to grade the White House on how well or not so well they've done. I think it's certainly a major challenge.
[Camerota:] If you're calling for transparency and you think there needs to be an education program for Americans so we know what we're up against, do you think the White House has done that?
[Hoffman:] I think you know, from my perspective, what I might like to see is, for example, when Ronald Reagan made the speech at Brandenburg Gate and told Mr. Gorbachev to tear down the wall, that might be something of that sort might be of value.
[Camerota:] If the president says something more forcefully.
[Hoffman:] Or someone in the administration.
[Camerota:] Daniel Hoffman, thank you very much for all of your expertise on this. Really fascinating to read that op-ed. Chris?
[Cuomo:] All right. Thank you very much. Mixed messages from the Trump administration about the North Korean nuclear threat. The president saying they will feel the fire and fury if they do anything. Diplomats saying something much softer. Is this the way it should go? Let's debate it, next.