[Leon Harris, Cnn Anchor:] Now, at this hour, the House of Representatives is set to debate the issues of human cloning. On the table, two competing bans on cloning, including one that makes it a federal crime. Joining us now is our medical correspondent Rea Blakey out of Washington Rea.
[Rea Blakey, Cnn Correspondent:] Leon, the controversial issue of human cloning hit the House floor with a fervor this morning, though the debate won't begin for a few hours. Representative Don Sherwood, Republican from Pennsylvania, launched the first salvo.
[Rep. Don Sherwood , Pennsylvania:] Mr. Speaker, the columnist Charles Krauthammer called legislation that we're going to consider today to permit cloning human embryos "a nightmare and an abomination." Well, it truly is. Some of those who support this proposal are so eager to clone human beings that they have taken to twisting the truth to promote their arguments. The latest thing they're saying is that cloned embryos are not really embryos at all. They said if you use body cells instead of sperm to fertilize an egg that really isn't an embryo. Mr. Speaker, that's ridiculous.
[Blakey:] CNN House producer Ted Barrett tells us the debate won't get under way until closer to 1:00, perhaps 2:00. Meanwhile, the House will spend time debating the Human Cloning Prohibition Act of 2001, which was introduced by Florida Republican Dave Weldon. It would make it unlawful to perform or attempt to perform human cloning, to ship or receive for any purpose any embryo produced by human cloning. The penalties would include up to 10 years in prison andor a minimum $1 million fine. Then there's alternative legislation that will also be considered. It is proposed by Pennsylvania Republican Jim Greenwood. It would also ban human cloning but it would allow embryo cloning for research purposes, which, Leon, gets back to the stem cell debate, since that debate is focused on the stem cells available in the embryos. Now, a vote, again, is expected later today, perhaps closer to 6:00. President Bush, who is still deciding whether to lift the ban on federally funded stem cell research, does, in fact, support a federal ban on human cloning.
[Harris:] Thank you very much, Rea Blakey in Washington. Let's talk some more about this now, have, I guess, some debate on this. Congressman Peter Deutsch of Florida is the co-sponsor of the bill that would leave the door open for stem cell research and Congressman Dave Weldon, whose bill makes all forms of cloning a crime. Gentlemen, thank you very much for your time this morning. I want to start with you, Congressman Weldon. Why is it then that you think every single version of this should be made a crime?
[Rep. Dave Weldon , Florida:] Well, I don't think there's any way that you can prevent the creation of human clones without stopping it from the very beginning. We're talking about crossing a threshold here. We're no longer discussing using the "excess" embryos in the freezers for stem cell research. We're now talking about creating clones, creating embryos for destructive research purposes. And specifically, if you look at the National Bioethics Advisory Commission recommendations on stem cell research from about three or four years ago, they specifically imply that creating embryos for destructive research purposes is unethical. They imply that using excess embryos is an ethical thing to do. And so what we're really debating here is whether we want to jump over that line and start creating embryos for destruction.
[Harris:] All right, Congressman Deutsch, then why would you want to, if you will, jump over that line?
[Rep. Peter Deutsch , Florida:] Well, I think first of all the key in the sense of the debate, and Dr. Weldon and I agree on a great many things. Neither one of us want to see any human cloning and there's a very clear line where that exists. And the legislation that I support would absolutely ban human cloning as well and there's ethical and practical reasons about that.
[Harris:] And I can interrupt...
[Deutsch:] But I think you do...
[Harris:] I'm sorry to interrupt, but I want you to clarify one point, if you can, before you move on. When you say human cloning, do you mean therefore and thereby, embryo cloning as well?
[Deutsch:] Well, again, let's, and this is where a lot of Americans and a lot of members of Congress are going to have to learn a little bit of science. What is going on in the procedure, and again, he describes it as human cloning embryos. I think it's accurately described in the scientific community as somatic cell nuclear transfer. And let's talk, and we have to get into some of the specifics. You know, when we talk about an embryo, we talk about a sperm and an egg coming together to create an embryo with a potentiality of a unique human life. What this procedure is, is an egg of a mammalian species, obviously in the human situation a female, and literally taking that egg and taking out the 23 chromosomes in that egg and then taking a cell in a body, literally one of the trillions of cells that exist in a body, and taking out the 46 chromosomes in one of those cells and putting them in an egg, not for any purpose of human cloning, but somatic cell nuclear transfer. And the reason that it's done or that it is potentially done is related to the whole issue of stem cell research. The president and my friends and colleagues on the other side of the stem cell issue, including Dr. Weldon, have lost that debate because the American people understand really the potentiality. Again, it's an issue, it's a significant issue. But as he talked about the fact that in in vitro fertilization embryos are created that would be literally thrown out if not used for research. What this research is, the somatic cell nuclear transfer research is that once you have these stem cells, which literally have incredible potential. Just today, insulin stem cells were announced, you know, that they were actually developed in research in Israel, just literally yesterday. But that research has no application if you can't put it into people. And it's very similar to the issue of organ transplants. The stem cell research, this incredible potentiality to cure paralysis, to cure Parkinson's, to cure Alzheimer's...
[Weldon:] I'd like to respond to some of this.
[Deutsch:] ... literally, you know, the most horrific things in the human condition won't have any potentiality if you can't put them into someone. So this is not creating life, this is giving life.
[Harris:] Well, I want to give Congressman Weldon a chance to respond to that.
[Weldon:] What he is, the argument he is trying to put forward is that the technology that created Dolly, if you apply it to humans, that those human embryos that are created are somehow not human embryos. And there's no biological and no scientific basis to support his position. The position that he is arguing is like questioning whether Dolly is a sheep or not. The path they want to go down is to create thousands, millions of human embryos in the lab for destructive research purposes, no longer talking about using excess embryos in the freezers at the in vitro fertilization clinics. But now we're going to start creating embryos. I think that's a line that most Americans do not want to cross. I believe there is a lot of promising research that can be done without us creating human embryos for destruction.
[Harris:] You know, whichever way this goes I think we're sitting here and we're hearing this morning part of the problem that the public may be having with trying to decide which way they want to go on this issue. The talk, the jargon, if you will, is so technical that it's kind of hard to crystallize exactly what it is we're talking about here on each side. Is there any better way to communicate this, and I'm going to begin with you, Congressman Deutsch? Is there any better way to crystallize exactly what it is, the position that you're taking is actually proposing?
[Deutsch:] Well, I think, again, you're hearing a fairly good part of the debate right now. I think, you know, the people who have been trying to prevent stem cell research and I think Dr. Weldon is amongst those people and he should acknowledge it. I mean, you know, it's a very hard thing...
[Weldon:] I support stem cell research.
[Deutsch:] Right. But without stem cells which not with embryonic stem cells. So you keep mentioning the embryos that are going to be thrown out anyway dealing with infertility and you and I both know that you don't support using embryonic stem cells, which everyone in the scientist community is saying that have the best potentiality for research. And...
[Weldon:] No, my position is on federal funding.
[Harris:] I want to get from Congressman Weldon the final word on this then we have to go.
[Weldon:] My position is on federal funding. I have never proposed making embryonic stem cell research illegal.
[Deutsch:] Right, and the practical matter, as he well knows, is that the position he takes has the effect of banning embryonic stem cell research.
[Weldon:] That is not true. That's not true.
[Harris:] I think we're all beginning to get a bit of the germ of exactly what's been going on with this issue and the debate no doubt will continue and continue to be even we'll watch it. Congressman Deutsch and Congressman Weldon, thank you very much for your time this afternoon.
[Weldon:] Thank you.
[Harris:] Appreciate it.