[Alisyn Camerota, Cnn Anchor:] In just hours, former acting attorney general Sally Yates and former director of national intelligence James Clapper are set to testify before the Senate Judiciary's Committee their hearing on Russia's interference in the U.S. election. So what can we expect to learn today? Joining us to discuss is CNN national security analyst and former CIA and NSA director, General Michael Hayden. General, thanks for being here. Great to have you.
[Gen. Michael Hayden, Cnn National Security Analyst:] Thank you.
[Camerota:] Sally Yates will be hamstrung, of course, by classified information stuff that she cannot share
[Chris Cuomo, Cnn Anchor:] This is an open session.
[Camerota:] with the open session, so what do you expect to learn today from her?
[Hayden:] Well, I think it's going to be fascinating, Alisyn. And let me go out on a limb here, all right, to say that at the end of the day the White House is not going to be enthusiastic with regard to what's said in the committee hearing and this isn't going to settle this issue down. And so what we have here are two career professionals, one in Justice, one in American intelligence not the deep state, not politicized individuals, although that's the charge that's been made against one personally and the other's institution. These people are simply going to candidly answer questions from a very knowledgeable interrogator, Senator Lindsey Graham. So I actually think even though we've got this cabin because of classification concerns for both witnesses, we're going to learn an awful lot that we hadn't had really detailed knowledge about in the past.
[Cuomo:] All right, so let's dialogue it out a little bit. So, Sally Yates says it wasn't a heads-up. I went in there I went in there early, I told them we know what he said what Flynn said to this guy and it's not the story that's coming out of the White House. He could be compromised by Russia because of what he exposed himself to. Now what?
[Hayden:] Well, first of all, Chris, I think we know that objectively. I think I mentioned the last time we chatted that if the acting attorney general insists on seeing the White House counsel, that's a tectonic thing in its own right. But she's going to put on exclamation point on it by putting some of the human interest the details of the narrative of the plot line into the story. So it suggests a couple of things. One is the chaos in the Trump White House. Second is the inordinate distrust of the officials from the government they were replacing. And third, it's going to feed that darker narrative out there with regard to the relationship between the Trump campaign and the Russian federation.
[Camerota:] And so, General, why is that you were saying that you don't think that lawmakers will be enthusiastic about what they hear today?
[Hayden:] No, I don't I think the White House will not be enthusiastic
[Camerota:] Oh.
[Hayden:] about what they hear.
[Camerota:] OK, and so what will James Clapper then add to this?
[Hayden:] I think what Jim will do and David Sanger suggested this a few minutes ago when you were speaking with him. I think Jim is going to lean a little bit more forward in terms of what kind of intelligence backs up that public white paper that the DNI's office pushed out the door in January. Now look, even I, as a career professional, was a little disappointed that what we got were the conclusions of the American Intelligence Community with regard to what the Russians did to influence our presidential election, but we got none of the supporting data. Now I understand you've got to you've got to protect sources and methods but I think Jim's going to be a little more forthcoming with at least the kind of sources and methods that were relied on to get to those conclusions. And remember, Alisyn, those were high confidence conclusions on the part of the Intelligence Community.
[Cuomo:] You know, with what we just saw in France it's obviously so important that we get to the bottom of how Russia did whatever they did here, how it was disseminated, and how we protect against it. You do have this parallel concern about collusion. Clapper had been used a lot by Trump defenders saying hey, Clapper when he was leaving was asked about this and he said I've seen no evidence of collusion. What do you say in your experience to those who say if there proof we'd know it already, General, and we haven't been told anything so this is a fool's errand.
[Hayden:] So I wouldn't believe that we'd know it already. This deserves to be played out. That's why you've got these multiple investigations going on. That's why you've got the FBI on point here trying to find out what, if any, collusion took place. But Chris, you bring up a great point and let me be very candid and perhaps a little dark here. Perhaps the only collusion that would have been required to make the Russian effort successful was a presidential campaign that incessantly chanted "lock her up" and threatened a special prosecutor to put his political opponent in jail if that campaign won. And a candidate, himself, who seemed to endorse WikiLeaks by saying "I love WikiLeaks." Maybe that was all the precondition you needed inside the American political process to make the Russian effort more likely to succeed.
[Camerota:] General, what's happening with North Korea? There are now four Americans being detained being held in North Korea. What is this about?
[Hayden:] Well, number one, as I think most people believe, the Kim regime is going to try to provoke the Americans to show that they've got cards to play in this contest. And I think, frankly, Alisyn, this is about bargaining chips. Kim is kind of going to the cashier to get more chips to play with when he confronts the American administration, and this is really hard for us. We owe these people protection because they are American citizens. But, Alisyn, if we overemphasize this, if we over-focus on this, we simply incentivize Kim Jong Un to take even more Americans because he's getting the desired effect.
[Camerota:] General, thank you for all of your experience
[Hayden:] Thank you.
[Camerota:] and sharing your expertise with us.
[Cuomo:] All right, we have another story to share with you this morning. The disturbing new details emerging in the death of a fraternity pledge at Penn State. Now, evidence just released is leaving parents in shock. Why? We'll show you next.