[Blackwell:] 16 minutes after the hour now. This morning Russia is reacting to Michael Flynn's guilty plea to lying to the FBI calling it a sack of smoke and empty and labeling the Russia investigation an attack.
[Paul:] But Flynn's actions could have far-reaching consequences for the Trump administration here. Experts say investigators are hoping to get more information from the former National Security advisor. We're going to talk about that in a little more in-depth in just a moment.
[Blackwell:] First, though, let's take a look at what got Flynn into trouble. To start with CNN Chief National Security Correspondent Jim Sciutto has that for us.
[Jim Sciutto, Cnn Chief National Security Correspondent:] The ongoing Russia investigation has reached President Trump's innermost circle. Trump's former National Security Advisor, Michael Flynn, said that he is cooperating with the special counsel's probe into possible cooperation between the Trump Campaign and the Russian government. Flynn pled guilty to repeatedly lying to the FBI, including making false statements about his December 2016 conversations with Russia's then-Ambassador to the U.S. Sergey Kislyak. According to the statement of offense, Flynn lied when he told the FBI he did not discuss sanctions with Kislyak. On the same day that President Obama expelled Russian diplomats from the U.S. and boosted sanctions on Moscow in retaliation for Russia's meddling in the presidential election. Flynn also sought Russia's help during the transition to block a U.N. Security Council vote that the Obama administration was abstaining on. The White House said, "Nothing about the guilty plea or the charge implicates anyone other than Mr. Flynn." However, court documents make clear that Flynn was not acting alone. According to prosecutors, Flynn communicated with senior members of the president's transition team about the conversations, and in at least one instance was directed by transition official to reach out to Russia. CNN has learned that the president's son-in-law, Jared Kushner, is the very senior member of the presidential transition team identified in court documents. Kushner directed Michael Flynn to contact the Russian ambassador and other countries regarding the U.N. Security Council vote on Israeli settlements, this according to sources familiar with the matter. Flynn's guilty plea belies President Trump's repeated denials of any contacts or involvement between his campaign and Russia. In your view, has the president lied about what communications his team had with Russia?
[Rep. Adam Schiff , California:] Well, abundantly, and frequently, and in about just about every way. But most significant in denying that this happened, saying it's a hoax.
[Sciutto:] After the court proceeding, Flynn went immediately to the home of his son Michael Flynn Jr. Michael Flynn Jr., central to Michael Flynn Sr. is thinking in this case. We reported recently that Flynn Sr. was concerned about the legal jeopardy his son might face. He has not mentioned, not charged in any of these documents, and it certainly raises the question as to whether cooperation from Flynn was in exchange partly for protecting his son. Jim Sciutto, CNN, Washington.
[Blackwell:] Jim, thanks. Let's bring back now, Kelly Jane Torrance, and bring in Paige Pate, CNN Legal Analyst and Criminal Defense Attorney. Paige, good morning to you. Good morning again to you Kelly Jane.
[Torrance:] Good morning.
[Blackwell:] Paige, I want to talk with you. Just days ago, CNN reported that Mueller's team question Jared Kushner in early November, specifically about Flynn's conversations with the Russian ambassador. Well, now that Flynn says he was directed by very senior transition officials to have those conversation, and sources tell CNN that official was Kushner. How does that change your read of that Mueller interview with Kushner?
[Paige Pate, Cnn Legal Analyst And Criminal Defense Attorney:] Well, Victor, it's not uncommon at all for federal prosecutors and agents like this to know everything they can about the case before they sit down and talk to potential targets or subjects of the investigation. And they will often people in that interview room, look, we know more than you do, so be careful about what you tell us and make sure it's true. And so, I'm certain that when the investigators were asking Kushner these questions about those conversations, they already had some idea of what Mr. Flynn was going to say about them. So, I think a lot depends on reviewing the transcript if there is one of those conversations, those interviews with Kushner, and whether or not he made a false statement to one of the investigators. Because if he did, as we've seen with Flynn and others, that's a federal crime.
[Blackwell:] Kelly, so Flynn says that a very senior member of the transition team told him to have those conversations. And it takes us back to the question that we asked when we learned about the Don Jr. Trump Tower meeting, and we learned about the communications between Don Jr. and WikiLeaks, what did the president or then-candidate or president-elect know and when did he know it? We know that President Trump was very involved because he had a small team, some would say micromanaging, is it plausible that these conversations would happen and Donald Trump would have no idea about them?
[Torrance:] I would say it seems unlikely, Victor. But with President Donald Trump and candidate Donald Trump, you can never say anything absolute, right? This was not a campaign that was a normal campaign. And you would think that a guy would know what his son-in-law is up to, if his son-in-law is running his campaign, and, you know, getting someone like Michael Flynn who President Trump was also very close to, you know. Notice that Michael Flynn is one of the few people that Donald Trump has really stood behind, and, you know, he really likes the guy. And, you know, I was just talking to Asawin in the green room earlier, he said that Donald Trump had actually sent him a written note saying stay strong in the days leading up to Flynn's guilty plea. So, you know, you don't know what the president knew or what he didn't, but it seems, you know, a normal person, it would be highly unlikely they don't know what their son-in-law is instructing their top national security official to do.
[Blackwell:] Yes. We really don't know how long Mr. Flynn has been cooperating with the special prosecutor here, and how much he knows about these communications. Let me get to you, Paige, about this Logan Act, that's an 18th-century law that essentially says there's one government at a time and makes it illegal to intervene on the business of the sitting administration, especially for incoming administrations. Is this something that is really at play here?
[Pate:] Oh, I think so. I really think this is the heart of the case now. And what's interesting is: no one's really been effectively prosecuted under the Logan Act before. I mean, it's on the books, it's been there a long time, as you noted, but no one's really been convicted and sent to jail because of a violation of the Logan Act.
[Blackwell:] But wouldn't it suggest that it's possibly off the table here when there is with the case of General Flynn so much that can be on the table?
[Pate:] Yes, and I think what Flynn ended up entering a plea to, the false statements, was an attempt to cover up for this potentially nonexistent crime. So, I don't think they had any idea Kushner, Flynn and the others that they may be violating the Logan Act until after the fact. And then, they took these steps: talking to themselves, lying to investigators to try to cover up what may never have been prosecuted anyway. So, I think the Logan Act is important here. But I think you're right, I don't see any prosecutions under the Logan Act going forward.
[Blackwell:] You know, Kelly, two people I've been thinking about of the last 16, 18 hours: Rick Gates and Paul Manafort. What does this potentially mean for them, in this game of let's make a deal, who can you offer if we're flipping up? How does this potentially, I guess, jeopardize their value in any potential deal that they might have wanted to make. If you've got Flynn who was there during the candidacy, during the transition, and then in the White House, he seemed to be far more valuable.
[Torrance:] Now, it's an excellent point, Victor, and he is more valuable, especially since now it's been become clear that he is providing names of people very close to the president, who instructed him to talk to Russia. And I have to say though, I mean, how credible is Michael Flynn as a witness? It's a good question I think. I mean, how did this guy, who was, you know, in the government before, he was the head of DIA, how did he not know that his conversations with top Russian officials would not be overheard? Of course, America spies on its Russian officials just like the Russians spy on American officials. And it's kind of incredible to me that this man did not consider when he called the Russian ambassador on his cell phone that this would be overheard. And that's why it's shocking that he thought he could lie about it to the FBI, and you have to wonder, can you trust this guy? He seems kind of kind of ridiculous and not really a serious guy. And again, keep in mind, this was the national security advisor for a month of United States, and he's someone who doesn't even seem to understand how the national security apparatus in this country works.
[Blackwell:] Paige, let me take that to you. I mean, how reliable is a liar?
[Pate:] Well, that's a great question. I mean, I think in every federal case, you're going to see people who've cut deals with the government, and, of course, the other side. In this case, lawyers for Kushner, Trump and the others will attack that person's credibility. I mean, they were so supportive of Michael Flynn before, but now he's going to be somebody you can't trust at all according to them. And he has cut a deal, and that's fair game. They can say, look, he'll say whatever the special counsel wants him to say, otherwise, he's going to face much more serious criminal charges. So, he does have that issue of credibility, but I think it helps him that he entered a guilty plea because he's come forward now in front of a federal judge and said, look, what I did back then and with other people around me was illegal. It was a crime. So, admitting that actually helps his credibility to some extent.
[Blackwell:] All right. Paige Pate, Kelly Jane Torrance, thanks so much.
[Pate:] Thank you.
[Torrance:] Thank you, Victor.
[Paul:] So, tax reform passes the Senate. Coming up, the next steps for this bill and what it means if it becomes the first major legislative victory for the Trump-era.