[Christiane Amanpour, Cnn Chief International Correspondent:] Welcome to all our viewers around the world, and those joining us wherever you may be, including in the United States. We are now watching, as we have been, this special mass ahead of the special conclave which will elect the next pope. We are now in the most solemn part of this mass, which is called the Liturgy of the Eucharist, where Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the presiding priest, if you like, celebrating this mass is in the prayerful process of consecrating the wine and the bread into what Catholics believe will become the body and the blood of Christ. Just a few moments ago, Cardinal Ratzinger delivered the homily. This was the first opportunity that we have had to scrutinize what he may instruct the cardinals, if you like, in a moral and prayerful way to do when they enter their secretive process of the conclave in a few hours from now, here, in the Sistine Chapel, in the Vatican, at Vatican City. He is, we have said, is the dean of the College of Cardinals. He was known as the pope's enforcer. He is also one of the frontrunners and could perhaps become the next pope himself. And if not, he is considered one of the most powerful cardinals who could be a pope maker. And we say this because a couple of his sentences, his paragraphs in his three-page homily were incredibly instructive as to where his thoughts lie and as to what the next cardinals should be thinking as they choose the next pope. To sum it up, he essentially said, stick with the old, with the true doctrine of the Catholic faith. Do not get tempted by today's fashions and today's extremes, if you like. He said that it looked like today we are moving towards a dictatorship of relativism which does not recognize anything as certain and which has as its highest goal one's own ego and one's own desires. He said that having a clear faith based on the creed of the church is often labeled today as fundamentalism, whereas being an adult in Christ, he said, means having faith which does not follow the waves of today's fashions or the latest novelties. We're joined by our CNN Vatican analyst, John Allen, who has also written the book "Conclave," a very authoritative study of the secretive process that elects a pope, and by CNN's Vatican correspondent Jim Bittermann. First, John Allen. This was an extremely blunt, no mistake about it, instruction to the cardinals a few hours before they head into their conclave.
[John Allen, Cnn Vatican Analyst:] No question about it. I mean, a homily is typically a kind of spiritual meditation, not a campaign speech. But I think what we got today was the most blunt indication we have had yet of where Ratzinger himself stands. And obviously, therefore, of what kind of pontificate he might engineer should he be elected. And I think the core of his message, as you rightly expressed it, is the church must remain true to itself. That is, there are a lot of potential seductions and connotations out there that would lead it astray. He checked off several: Marxism, liberalism, radical individualism, syncretism, relativism, using that phrase "a dictatorship of relativism." And in the end, his point was that we cannot be seduced, we cannot be tempted, we must remain true to the traditional teachings, traditional positions of the Catholic Church. And in the end, if we do that, that is the test of fidelity.
[Amanpour:] All those isms he listed as being negative, what does that exactly mean? What is syncretism, relative? What is he reeling against, if you like?
[Allen:] Well, if you want to boil it down, it is the kind of modern idea that there is no truth with a capital T. That is, that absolute truth does not exist; that you have your truth, I have mine, and we sort of go our separate ways. Ratzinger, in concert with, of course, a very strong current in church tradition, is insisting that is not true. That in fact there is absolute truth, and the pinnacle expression of that truth came in the person of Jesus Christ. And therefore, that the church must have the courage to proclaim that absolute truth, even in an era that doesn't want to hear it. And that is a call, a very clear clarion call, I would say, for a traditionalist. He was not even afraid he used the word "fundamentalist" in a sense, a very traditional, conservative sort of expression of the church's traditional teachings.
[Amanpour:] And we've obviously been discussing that this adherence to truth with a capital T comes at a time when it's not just that people don't want to hear it. Congregations are diminishing in size all over the world, except for in Africa, Latin America, and Asia. But in the first world, if you want to talk about the modern, the most established Catholic Church, people are not going to church. How does the next pope stick with the truth of the doctrine and bring people into the church rather than alienate them? Or do they care anymore about Europe and America?
[Allen:] Well, Christiane, I was just going to say, that was a pretty big "except" you just used, because you excepted two-thirds of the world. I mean, the truth is...
[Amanpour:] But we're talking about huge populations.
[Allen:] We are talking about huge populations. But the truth is, in a place like Africa, for example, the church's traditional positions on sexual morality really are not controversial. I mean, you see this in the debate inside Anglicanism today, where you see the kind of developed western wing of Anglicanism moving towards an embrace of gay marriage and so forth. And the Africans, who are now the overwhelming majority of Anglicans in the world, actually, strongly resisting it. So, you know, the truth is, these positions tend to be most controversial in the developed world, in Europe, especially, western Europe, and in North America. And there, there is a very real question about how the church can continue its presentation of these positions which are not supported by large sectors of the population, and avoid the kind of crises you talked about, where you have declining rates of vocations of the priesthood and religious life, declining rates of mass attendance, declining public influence. Let's not forget, John Paul II, one of the last frustrations of his pontificate was he could not even convince the European Union to make a reference to god in the preamble to the new European constitution. Real question how you can sort of take the line that Ratzinger just sketched out and sell it, so to speak, in that very secular environment.
[Amanpour:] And yet, Jim Bittermann, Catholicism, strict adherence to Christian values, was a very big element of the latest U.S. selections. Catholics were ported by President Bush successfully. Are we basically hearing from Cardinal Ratzinger that it doesn't matter essentially, that the church all over the world is growing and they can write off America and western Europe?
[Jim Bittermann, Cnn Correspondent:] Well, I think, you know, one of the things that John and I both have come to recognize this last week is how much Ratzinger has dominated this process. It's really amazing. I guess you could read this stuff in the paper; you don't realize until it actually happens. But, you know, he gave the funeral speech for John Paul II. All week long during his congregations, when the cardinals have met, it's Ratzinger who presides. And he decides who says what
[Amanpour:] And, of course, as dean of the College of Cardinals he has had the opportunity to be front and center.
[Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Dean, College Of Cardinals:] First we off them. For your holy Catholic Church, watch over it, Lord, and guide it. And grant it peace and unity throughout the world. And for all who hold and teach the Catholic faith that comes to us from the apostles, remember, Lord, your people, your cardinals, and all people for whom we pray. Remember all who are gathered here before you. You know how firmly we believe in you and dedicate ourselves to you. We offer you the sacrifice of praise for ourselves and those who are dear to us. We pray to you, a living and true god, for our wellbeing and redemption.
[Amanpour:] The cardinals celebrate this mass and get ready for the central central part of the Catholic mass, which is the consecration and turning the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ. Just continuing our conversation for one more minute with Jim Bittermann. You have interviewed several of the cardinals who will be eligible, and, of course, those who will be mentioned as potential frontrunners. Is there any fundamental difference in the way they would lead the church?
[Bittermann:] Oh, I think so. I think there's a lot of difference. There's a lot wider spectrum than you think, despite the fact that all but two have been named by John Paul II. One thing I might just add back on the Ratzinger argument is this could all backfire, because some of the cardinals could take a very negative view of this, that feel that Ratzinger has been pushing too hard of a line and oppose that line when it comes time to vote.
[Allen:] It might also be worth mentioning something you picked up on a moment ago, that Cardinal Ratzinger has for a long time taken the position that Christianity, in order to be faithful, at least in the west, is going to have to get smaller. I mean, he's talked about the need for Christianity to be a creative minority in this relativised secular culture. So, in that sense, what we heard from him today was surprising perhaps in its bluntness, but not surprising in its content.
[Ratzinger:] And count us among those you have chosen. Father, accept this offering from your whole family, an offering of spirit and truth. Make it acceptable. Let it become for us the body and blood of your only son, Jesus Christ, our lord, who the day before he suffered took bread in his hands and, lifting up his eyes to heaven, to you, his almighty Father, he gave thanks and praise, blessed and broke the bread, and he gave it to his disciples and said, "Take this, all of you and eat it. This is my body which will be given up for you." And when supper was ended, he took the cup. Again, he gave you thanks and praise, gave the cups to his disciples and said, "Take this, all of you, and drink from it. This is the cup of my blood, the blood of a new and everlasting covenant which will be shed for you and for all men so that sinners may be forgiven. Do this in memory of me." Let us proclaim the mystery of faith. And will our savior save us?
[Amanpour:] John Allen and Jim Bittermann continuing our conversation of what might go on when the cardinals, 115 of them, because two of them are too sick to take part, will enter the Sistine Chapel this afternoon in their highly secretive deliberations and voting to elect the next pope. Cardinal Ratzinger has given a fairly good, very blunt, no holds barred exposition of what he expects the cardinals to do, and that is stick to the traditional, stick to, as you say, the truth with the big T, don't get swept away by current, as he called it, relativism, secularism and today's, as he called it, fashions. Cardinal Ratzinger fears, according to interviews that he's given, that the more a religion is assimilated, the more it becomes superfluous. You've written about Cardinal Ratzinger. Is he one of these slippery slope kind of cardinals who is just terrified of beginning that process?
[Allen:] Well, I don't think he's just terrified. But he is a sort of Augustinian pessimist, I guess you could say, referring back to St. Augustine in the 1st century. He sort of had this dark view of the world outside the church. Ratzinger very much was steeped in that growing up
[Amanpour:] Well, let's just point out that Cardinal Ratzinger has also attacked rock music, calling it the expression of basic passions. Now, saying that, because in his homily he used the word "fundamentalism." And he has assumed to actually praise that. I believe he thinks that it is those who are so-called fundamentalists, adherents of whatever religions they are, that keep their religions in this tempest-tasked time of relativism, as he said. He's spoken very clearly about how groups who have realized that, you know, they need to stick to their core values have been more successful. And let's face it, in Europe, in many parts of the world, Islam is a fast-growing religion that's competing with the Catholic faith. The Pentacostalists, the other Protestants, Evangelical Christian sects, are also competing. What is he saying, Jim, about what the Catholic Church is going to have to do to keep its flock over the next generation?
[Bittermann:] Well, his version is different than the other cardinals' versions, I think, particularly cardinals that work in a pastoral situation, that have archdiocese in a lot of the real world. Ratzinger works in the Curia, and things look a lot different from the Vatican than they do from outside the Vatican. I know of a number of cardinals who would say that they would like, for instance, to see the rules changed on condoms. In a world beset by AIDS and particularly in Africa and, in fact, some of the African cardinals will probably tell you that they'd like to see some kind of accommodation made. Maybe nothing that would change the fundamental position of birth control, but some kind of an accommodation for condoms, because it is something that in Africa just is needed to fight AIDS. And they actually, some will tell their bishops to go ahead and tell the parishioners to but, of course, they've been made to tow the line. And Ratzinger's one of the people that's made them tow the line here from the Vatican. And they've been told this is the church position, so you enforce the church position. Now, if that's the kind of fundamentalism that Ratzinger is going to continue on, I think that there's going to be a lot of divisions within the church. There already are sort of sodo voce. There's a lot of things going on out there that the Vatican doesn't know about, and there'll be more because there are some real world problems that the fundamentalism of somebody like Cardinal Ratzinger really doesn't address.
[Amanpour:] Let's just talk about the secrecy of the process that we're about to observe for the next several days. The conclave, when they go into the Sistine Chapel and basically, metaphorically, the doors are locked, everybody's...
[Bittermann:] It's not a metaphor.
[Amanpour:] Not even metaphorically. The doors are locked; they have to stay there until they come out with a new pope. Except they're allowed to go to a nice dormitory hotel to spend the night, which is a change. But once they're in there, what are they going to be talking about? Do they talk much? Is it silent ballots? What is the process one they're in there?
[Allen:] Well, you know, when I did my book "Conclave," one of the men I interviewed was now the late Cardinal Avina Cardinal Franz Kearny, who was the grand elector of Karol Wojtyla's election in 1978. At the time, he was the only man alive who had taken part in three conclaves. And I asked him that very question, there must be fascinating conversations that go on inside the Sistine Chapel, and political organizing. He told me, "Actually, if you were sitting there, you would be bored to tears." What happens in the Sistine Chapel is entirely stylized ceremonials. Each cardinal writes out a name on a ballot, then they each process up one by one, place that ballot on a small silver plate, dip into an urn, swearing an oath, each one individually, calling upon Christ as their judge that they are voting for the man they should be elected, and then they return quietly to their places. And then there's an elaborate counting process. Three cardinals count the ballots, three more count behind them to make sure it's accurate. This takes perhaps an hour and a half to unfold. Then they have to do it again, assuming it was
[Amanpour:] So let's just stress again that it is secretive inside the Sistine Chapel. It's not just that they're not allowed to talk to us. They're not allowed to read newspapers, watch television, listen to the radio. Perhaps they're not allowed to exchange emails with anybody in the outside world. This is a total process of cutting yourself off. But what if in the week leading up to this conclave you've been able to talk to people, both of you, perhaps on the condition of anonymity. But what are they saying, either the cardinals or those close to them, about what might happen behind those closed doors? Jim first.
[Bittermann:] Well, I think, you know, one of the things that we don't know is how much actual horse trading there's going to be. One cardinal told me that the Holy Spirit speaks to us through the numbers. And what he meant by that is they'll be watching for trends, they'll be watching for voting trends. If you see some cardinal that's suddenly out there in front, running away, picking up votes, of if you see some cardinal who's losing votes, if Cardinal Ratzinger comes in as 30, 40 votes in the beginning, and then, you know, the next round has 20 or 30, he'll be seen as a failing candidate. And so support will diminish. But because of the fact that each one of these voters is also a candidate and anybody can be a candidate that's in that room because of that fact, it's really a different kind of election. You really can't predict the outcome, in fact, the same way. So you're right about the secrecy. I mean, they swept the place for electronic bugs already. They put in we were told they put in under the raised floor of the Sistine Chapel, they put in anti-cell phone devices to block cell phones. However, some of the journalists said they still had a signal when they were in there.
[Allen:] I called my wife from the Sistine Chapel.
[Amanpour:] Well, no cardinal will be doing that, you can rest assured.
[Allen:] We presume not.
[Amanpour:] As the moment of communion inside the basilica has been under way, we're talking about sort of the horse trading. You know, we call this election, but it is not an election in any sort of political sense that we know in terms of electing secular leaders. But give us an idea of the blocs that exist, the blocs of cardinals from Europe, from Latin America, from Africa. Where are the power centers?
[Allen:] Well, you can divide up the pie geographically if you like. And if you do that, obviously the European bloc is the overwhelming strong bloc. It's 58 out of 115 electors. The Italians themselves are 20 voting, cardinals. It's the largest national bloc. Second largest, interestingly, is the Americans. Although I think there's no sense that the 11 American cardinals are going to be acting as a unified group. And even if they were, Christiane, I don't think it would be particularly effective, because, frankly, the rest of the world, like the rest of the world, have a bit of ambivalence towards the United States at times. They respect it, but they don't want to be told what to do by the Americans. But I think that's perhaps not the most instructive way of looking at it. I think a better way of dividing up this group would be, what would their passions be as pope? What would be the thing that got them out of bed in the morning? And there I think you can see at least four groups. I mean, there would be this group that will strongly want to defend, tenaciously defend traditional expression of Christian doctrine. Obviously, we just heard the Magna Carta, that point of view, in a sense, from Cardinal Ratzinger. Another group would be reformers who would want to continue the reform of the church launched by the Second Vatican Council. You might think of men like
[Amanpour:] Let's talk a little bit about the American Catholic dioceses. They have spoken quite loudly, many of the cardinals, and many of the congregations there, and the bishops, in fact, that they would prefer to see more of what we call devolution of power. Perhaps here it's called collegiality, I think...
[Allen:] That's right.
[Amanpour:] ... whereby bishops in various dioceses can make more of the decisions about their day-to-day Catholic lives and their day- to-day parishes than waiting to get every single, even minute, instruction from Rome. There's that issue, but there's also the very important issue, and that was even on display here in Rome last week, of the American church reeling from the sex abuse and pedophilia scandal. We saw here Cardinal Law, the somewhat disgraced, certainly retired, resigned bishop, archbishop of Boston, leading one of the funeral masses, one of the mourning masses for John Paul II. And there was a protest against it. American Catholics were offended by that. All to say, how much reconciliation and reaching out and bridge- building do does the hierarchy of the Catholic Church have to make with the American congregation?
[Allen:] Yes, I think there's a sense in which the American Catholic Church in the last three years or so has passed through what in spiritual language would be called a dark night of the soul. Meaning there's an extraordinarily traumatic period in which people have felt betrayed and let down by the men who lead this church, at least some of them. Obviously we can't paint with too broad a brush. But there is a sense of demoralization, I think, in many sectors in the American Catholic Church. And I think many American Catholics are looking to this conclave to give them a sort of burst of energy, sort of a pope who can speak a word of hope, especially to the American Catholic Church, remind them that beneath all the anguish of the last years, there still is something incredibly precious and incredibly valuable about this state that they continue to cling to. And that is why, I think, especially for American cardinals, among all the other qualities you want a pope to have, they're going to be looking for an optimist, somebody who can put a smile on the faces of Catholics also in the United States and renew some of that vigor and some of that dynamism that unfortunately has been has been diminished through recent years because of all the scandals and all the difficulties of which you've alluded.
[Amanpour:] And Jim, not to put too banal a point on it, but it's not just doctrinal optimism that has to be reconnected, but also in this media age. I've even heard talk that because John Paul II was such a linguist, such a well-traveled pope, connected so much with so many parts of the world, that it won't be enough. In fact, I think you reported it, for a pope just to speak one language, whatever it might be.
[Bittermann:] Absolutely. And, in fact, you know, as we've been talking to cardinals over the last few days, one of the things you hear people say is, "Well, he doesn't speak Italian," "Well he doesn't speak English," "He doesn't speak..." and, you know, the next pope is going that's going to be part of the job description. He's going to have to be able to be communicate in different languages. Several cardinals one cardinal in particular said, "Look, it can't be someone too old who can't travel." It's got to be somebody who can get on jet planes and get off to countries. Maybe doesn't travel as much as John Paul II did, but he's got to be out there and addressing the concerns of the world, visiting "my" archdiocese. And so you've got to there are some things that are going to have to the bar has been raised by Pope John Paul II, and the next pope is going to have to live up to that.
[Amanpour:] And you said he can't be too old. But I've also read can't be too young. We don't want another 26-year pontificate.
[Bittermann:] Exactly. And it's a strange mix. And when you start trying to separate out and see you know, to look at all the cardinals' profiles and see who drops out, there are precious few who will fit all the dimensions that are being demanded.
[Amanpour:] Now, to both of you, do you think there is a hope in heaven that either a cardinal from Latin America or Africa could be chosen, given that those are the fastest-growing congregations in the Catholic Church? Is it time for somebody outside of Europe?
[Allen:] Well, the short answer to your first question, is there a hope in heaven, yes. I mean, I think there are several very strong candidates, particularly among the Latin Americans. Now, whether this is the time, or the next time is the time, I mean, remains to be seen. Because there also obviously are strong candidates from Italy, from other parts of Europe. We're just going to have to see. But I do think there is a strong current in the College of Cardinals that would that believes that, on the whole, all things being equal, it would be good to elect a pope from the south. No. 1, because it's where two-thirds of the Catholics in the world today are. It would be a forward-looking choice. No. 2, because, as we've been talking, the church in that part of the world is also facing an enormous threat from the growth of these Pentecostal and Evangelical sects. They're cutting into traditional Catholic populations. I think there's a sense that a pope from the south would be a shot in the arm. And finally, there's also a sense that if we elect a pope from the south, he's going to have a local church behind him that will give him an immediate base of support. One cardinal said we want to elect a pope in whose church there will be fireworks and bells ringing and people in the streets. You don't want to elect somebody from a local church whose reaction is going to be kind of ho-hum. That's not the right foot for the next pope to start on.
[Christiane Amanpour, Cnn Anchor:] So who are those bells and fireworks cardinals in Latin America? You have mentioned Homas.
[Allen:] Yes, I think well, you can mention a number of names. I think there's another Brazilian Cardinal Enyellow. I think Cardinal Rodriguez Maradiago in Honduras, Cardinal Bergoglio in Buenos Aries, Cardinal Aratisaviez in Chili, perhaps Cardinal Sandoval or Rivera Carrera in Mexico City. I think these are all men whose names have been mentioned. And you can guarantee that if any one of them were to be elected, it would be the equivalent of their team winning the World Cup in terms of the eruption of enthusiasm you would see in those local churches.
[Jim Bittermann, Cnn Correspondent:] This agnor over here, the same cardinal who John's referring to, say the same thing, that one of the other things that he said was that that's what launched John Paul II. That basically you had a very great hope in John Paul VI and John Paul I that nobody really got to know very well. But John Paul II, when he was elected, Poland exploded. And that explosion gave the church this image of being an exciting place to be. So in other churches around the world, there was a similar sort of explosion. So everybody wanted to see this new pope, how, why was he so celebrated in his homeland? Maybe, you know, he was something different. Maybe we should try to get him here. And so it was a great launch for John Paul II. And they believe it could be a great launch for the next pope if they can find the person that can excite people the same way.
[Amanpour:] Let's just talk about how John Paul II was elected. He didn't emerge as a frontrunner until several ballots, right, during the conclave of '78?
[Allen:] Yes, that's right. Even though there is a famous anecdote that Cardinal John Villot, who was the Secretary of State under Paul VI, in May of 1978 had a lunch to celebrate Cardinal Votia's birthday. There were seven or eight cardinals around the table. And Villot pointed across the table and said that's the only man who could get two-thirds of the vote in a conclave. Now of course he was wrong, because Cardinal Buchony was elected and then died after 33 days as John Paul I. But in a wider world, most people didn't know who Cardinal Votia was. And in those early ballots of that conclave in the second one in 1978, it sort of shaped up as a contest between Cardinal Jesepi Siera of Belonia, the conservative candidate, and Cardinal Jovani Bineli of Florence, the liberal candidate. And after the first three or four ballots, this dynamic that Jim talked about, it became clear that neither one of them were gaining votes. They weren't going to get to two-thirds. Something had to happen. And it was at that stage that Cardinal Perneg of Vienna stepped forward and proposed perhaps a candidate from behind the Iron Curtain. There's a famous story that he went to the primate of Poland, Cardinal Vashinsky, and said to him, your eminence, perhaps Poland could give us a candidate. To which Vashinsky said, no, it's not possible, I'm too old. To which Curnick said, your eminence, with respect, I was not talking about you.
[Amanpour:] That's a nice story, a nice anecdote. Let's clear up something that we've been reading about and we've seen it on our screen several times, it's not the 206th pope, it's not the 264th pope or the 265th pope, it is the...
[Allen:] It will be the 263rd pope and the 265th pontificate. And the reason is because in the 11th century, Benedict IX, a produce of one of these Roman dynastic families that had a strangle hold over the papacy, was actually elected three times.
[Amanpour:] So now for all our viewers who are simply going to say that the next pope will be the 263rd pope...
[Allen:] Correct.
[Amanpour:] ... to be elected to the throne of St. Peter. What goes through, also, what happened in the 13th century when a conclave lasted two years, nine months and two days? How was that possible?
[Allen:] Well, I mean, actually, while that was the longest conclave, it was not especially remarkable. I mean there were other conclaves that went on 18 months or longer. So you had the problem back then was the College of Cardinals was basically composed of 20-some Italians, many of whom came from two rival camps in terms of either the regions of Italy or the dynastic families that were controlling events in the church at that time. And to get two-thirds of them to agree on anyone was essentially impossible. And so these conclaves would go on over long periods of time in the hope that someone would finally cave in. And so what we're seeing here, of course, is Cardinal DeGratsi, the principle celebrant of the mass, bringing the events of the mass to conclusion. There will be an exit procession at the end of the ritual. And then, of course, the cardinals will be going over to the Doma Centra Marta, that's the $30 million hotel that John Paul II had constructed on Vatican grounds, where they will be served a kind of standard Italian lunch. You can imagine a first course of pasta, a second course of meat and perhaps some veno and then will head to their rooms for a brief nap, a repozino as they say in Italian. And then around 4:30 this afternoon will be gathering once again for that highly stylized ceremonial procession into the Sistine Chapel to begin the very serious work of electing the next pope.
[Unidentified Male:] Marvelous solemncon celebration. Poetic end to Ramono Pontificha for the election of the Roman pontiff. The great prayer of the church has begun. There are three verses dedicated to this prayer in the anticlerical of Pope John Paul, Olivesi Dominechi Gracious at a time of vacancy, above all in the time when the successor to Peter is being elected, the church is united in a very particular way around especially the elected cardinals in the sacred College of Cardinals, that they may elect someone who has been given divine providence. And in fact using the example of the first community of Christians in the Act of the Apostles, the universal church is spiritually united with Maria, the mother of Jesus, and must be unanimously united in prayer for the election of the new pontiff.
[Amanpour:] So as this special mass ends, we can see the cardinals, the rest of the congregation eventually will be processing out. And this, frankly, is the last we'll see of the cardinals, except for perhaps some stolen glimpses, perhaps through long-range lenses as they go from their hotel to the Sistine Chapel each morning and each night. But this is the last formal view I believe we'll have of the cardinals until...
[Allen:] Well, actually, we are going to get, apparently, direct video feed of the cardinals processing into the Sistine Chapel this afternoon and even their swearing in, so to speak, inside the Sistine Chapel. The Vatican tells us this is the first time we'll have live TV images of those early events inside the Sistine Chapel. This, of course, is of a piece with their attempt to be as transparent as humanly possible during these days while at the same time, obviously, protecting the absolute secrecy of the conclave.
[Amanpour:] You're absolutely right, and I had a rare moment of total amnesia just then. But after they go into the Sistine Chapel and start to vote, then we don't see them again in any meaningful way and then we'll be focused on what?
[Allen:] We'll be focusing on the chimney, the world's most important chimney in these days, of course atop the Sistine Chapel.
[Amanpour:] And that, of course, who knows when we will see the first one. It's potentially possible that this afternoon they may, amid their votes and their oath, rather, of secrecy and the formal proceedings, they may actually decide to hold their first ballot today. Is that correct?
[Allen:] Yes, and actually historical patterns hold they probably will. I mean the way it works is Cardinal Ratzinger is obligated to ask the cardinals if they have anything else they want to talk about, any questions about the rules. And if something comes up, then of course they have to deal with it. But assuming that by this point every possible question has been asked and answered a dozen times, then they probably would decide to go ahead and proceed to a first ballot, and therefore, we would expect some smoke later this evening.
[Amanpour:] And, Jim, who covered the last conclave, how long what is it like when you wait for that smoke?
[Bittermann:] You know it's interesting, I doubt that there's going to be a lot of people in the square the first time smoke goes up tonight. But once the word travels that you know twice a day there's going to be smoke coming out of the chimney, I think you'll start to see crowds gathering for around those periods of the day, especially the tourists. I mean if you're in Rome, the thing to do would be go down to the Vatican and just see if there's any smoke coming up. And boy, if you're there when it's white smoke, holy cow. So I think you'll see the crowds grow and grow over the days as the expectation grows. And one thing that's changed of course this time, and you mentioned, you alluded to it, and I'm sure it's going to happen, is that there are going to be still photographers staked out on the rooftops all over the place over here because the cardinals will be seen for the first time outside the Sistine Chapel at, you know, lunchtime and the evenings. They can go off for walks in the Vatican gardens. We can see the Vatican gardens from here, in fact. So I mean we may just catch glimpses of people walking together. And of course who is walking with whom and what kind of deals are being made here. What kind of things are going on.
[Amanpour:] And just to again put a slightly modern day connotation on this, given that they are going to be so hard to get, so to speak, I've heard some people refer to the cardinals this week as rock stars, because every time they do appear in public, they are mobbed by journalists and others who want to know who is it going to be, when is it going to be.
[Allen:] Yes, the difference is, of course, unlike rock stars, they don't exactly have records to sell so they haven't been terribly communicative with us in those mob moments. But you know the truth is this is the most important moment in a cardinal's life. I remember talking to a cardinal a year ago about the coming conclave. And of course you know explicitly they're not supposed to be talking about it at that stage, but obviously in the privacy of their consciousness they were. And this cardinal said to me, you know this is a choice we dare not get wrong. This is the moment to which all of our preparation and all of our service and all of our experience has been pointing. And so this is that they understand this to be a very solemn, solemn experience. The other thing I think I would expect, Christiane, is the moment it's over, I mean despite those vows of secrecy, they are going to be bursting to talk about the experience they've just lived through because they know what a historically significant period this was. And so obviously they're not going to be giving us round by round, you know, vote counts. But I think they will want to talk to us about the atmosphere, the color, the conversations they had, what it felt like to be present the first moment they realized they had a new pope. I think all of that will just come bursting out in a great flood of disclosure.
[Bittermann:] And something else that just to add to that is that John and I both heard this this week from one of the cardinals that you know they've got to go back and sell this new pope to their parishioners. So they're going to have to go back and explain why is this new pope, pope. And they'll have to have an explanation of exactly why they voted the way they did and why the college decided the way they did. So I think there will be a lot of explanation coming out. And I think a couple of cardinals have already promised John here that they're going to be available for debriefs after the...
[Amanpour:] Well, and that's a very appropriate note to end this section of our special coverage. And you heard it here, CNN will have most of the inside information because they're going to be talking to us and our Vatican analyst. And we will be back later, obviously, throughout this day and of course in extensive coverage when the conclave begins. For now, we go to a break. I'm Christiane Amanpour, along with John Allen and Jim Bittermann.
[Carol Costello, Cnn Anchor:] And good morning to you. From the Time Warner Center in New York, I'm Carol Costello, along with Chad Myers. "Now in the News." An unregistered sex offender charged with the murder of a Florida teenager, Sarah Lunde, is being arraigned three hours from now. Police say David Onstott confessed to choking the 13-year-old to death in her home on April 10. There is serious concern this morning over the shutdown of one North Korean nuclear plant. The potential for plutonium harvesting exists when a plant shuts down completely. North Korea says the plant has been stopped for routine cleaning. A New York-bound cruise ship was forced to dock in South Carolina after being battered by a massive seven-story-high wave. Four people were injured and the ship sustained damage. We'll hear from some of the ship's passengers later on on DAYBREAK. Amtrak's high suite Acela train is limping back into action after brake problems were discovered last week. One train will run this morning from New York to Washington and then from Washington to Boston this afternoon. For more information, you can contact Amtrak at 1-800-USA-RAIL or log on to Amtrak.com. To the Forecast Center now. Good morning Chad.
[Chad Myers, Cnn Meteorologist:] Good morning, Carol. Obviously had those Acela problems earlier in the week last week and on Friday. Didn't see too many airport backups with people trying to jam the airports instead. So I think we'll probably be all right.
[Costello:] No, but it was not pleasant on the train.
[Myers:] You said you tried to get to D.C., right?
[Costello:] I did get to D.C. and I was booked on the Acela.
[Myers:] Correct.
[Costello:] And let's just say I had to stand all the way to Philadelphia on the new train.
[Myers:] Yes. Well, especially on the regionals, they were booked. They were just packed.
[Costello:] They were.
[Myers:] So, yes, so there you go. And probably another day if they only have one of those Acelas going today.
[Costello:] Sure is. Thank you Chad.
[Myers:] You bet.
[Costello:] Murder charges have been filed in the case of another missing girl in Florida and once again a sex offender is at the center of the story. CNN's Sara Dorsey has more details for you from Ruskin, Florida.
[Sara Dorsey, Cnn Correspondent:] It's happened again in Florida, a child is killed allegedly by a convicted sex offender. Authorities say 13-year-old Sarah Lunde was murdered in her home, allegedly by a man who had once had a relationship with her mother. The sheriff says David Onstott has confessed to the crime.
[Sheriff David Gee, Hillborough County, Florida:] The sheriff's office alleges that on April 10, 2005 between the hours of midnight and 05:00 a.m., the defendant David Louis Onstott arrived at the victim's residence at 2812, 30th St. SE in Ruskin, Florida, looking for the victim's mother Kelly May. After entering the residence, the victim and defendant became involved in a verbal confrontation. During the confrontation, the defendant put the victim in a choke hold, causing her to become unconscious and eventually causing her death.
[Dorsey:] Lunde's partially clothed body was found only a half mile from her home in a pond at a fish farm. Searchers came from all over the area, including a man whose story is hauntingly similar. Mark Lunsford's daughter, Jessica, disappeared from her Florida home. Her body was later found buried. A convicted sex offender is charged with that crime. Lunsford has one thing to say to David Onstott.
[Mark Lunsford, Jessica Lunsfords Father:] Onstott, the same goes for you. I hope you rot in hell.
[Dorsey:] This eight-day ordeal came to the ending everyone feared. Sunday morning, Lunde's friends gathered in her honor for a memory service at her church.
[Ref. Pat Beaver, Associate Pastor:] And though we may not have been able to bring Sarah back safely home, we can be certain that she is forever safe with the Lord today.
[Dorsey:] An autopsy will be performed to determine the official cause of her death. Sara Dorsey, CNN, Ruskin, Florida.
[Costello:] In other news "Across America" now, a mystery in Pennsylvania. Police there are still searching for clues in the disappearance of a leading prosecutor. District Attorney Ray Grigar was last heard from on Friday. Police found his car near an antique market about 45 miles from his home but say they found no signs of foul play or other clues inside the car. A Rhode Island police detective was killed with his own weapon inside the Providence Police Station. Police say the detective was questioning a suspect in a stabbing when the man grabbed his weapon and shot him. The suspect was captured a few blocks away after jumping out of a window. He's been charged with murder. A candlelight vigil was held at the Oklahoma City National Memorial to remember victims of the Holocaust. The ceremony began 10 days of events planned to commemorate the 10th anniversary of the Oklahoma City Bombing. Tomorrow will mark 10 years since that event. And tonight, CNN's Aaron Brown hosts a special edition of "NEWSNIGHT" from Oklahoma City. Survivors give their account of the attack on the eve of the anniversary. "
[Day Of Terror:] REMEMBERING OKLAHOMA CITY" comes your way at 10:00 p.m. Eastern. On to politics now, House Majority Leader Tom DeLay felt right at home in the friendly confines of the NRA convention. For a few hours, he was able to put away the allegations of House rules violations. More from CNN's Elaine Quijano.
[Rep. Tom Delay,  Majority Leader:] Thank you. Thank you so much for that warm welcome. I hope the national media saw that.
[Elaine Quijano, Cnn Correspondent:] In his hometown of Houston, Texas, Republican Congressman Tom DeLay got some pumping up from a key element of his base: fellow gun owners at the National Rifle Association's annual convention. In the glare of the media spotlight, DeLay recounted what the NRA's president told him moments before.
[Delay:] When a man's in trouble or in a good fight, you want all your friends around them, preferably armed.
[Quijano:] The House majority leader has been under the microscope, in part because of questions about whether lobbyists improperly paid for overseas trips. While he's denied any legal or ethical violations, two Republicans have cautiously suggested he step down. First, it was Connecticut Congressman Christopher Shays and recently a second Republican, Thomas Tancredo of Colorado told ABC News this regarding DeLay.
[Rep. Thomas Tancredo,  Colorado:] If he were to temporarily step down, clear this up, I would certainly be willing to vote to elevate him back to the position he's in, because I think that's just the best way to handle it for the party and for Tom.
[Quijano:] President Bush, meantime, did not answer directly last week when asked if he felt Tom DeLay was a liability to Republicans or to the president's agenda. Mr. Bush, who is trying to get ambitious legislation pushed through Congress, did call Mr. DeLay a very effective leader and said he looks forward to working with him in the future. Elaine Quijano, CNN, Washington.
[Costello:] And still to come on DAYBREAK, Marla Ruzicka had a knack for helping the helpless, now she's a victim of the violence in Iraq. Jane Arraf has that story when DAYBREAK returns. Your news, money, weather and sports. It's 5:53 Eastern. Here is what's all new this morning. The 115 cardinals who will pick the next pope begin their conclave today. They'll sequester themselves in the Sistine Chapel and then decide whether to take a first vote today or wait until tomorrow. It's back to the witness stand today for the mother of the boy accusing Michael Jackson of molestation. On Friday, the judge threatened to shut down the trial for the day after she and Jackson's attorney got into a heated exchange. In money news, first iPods, now I-Radio. Motorola is set to launch radio on cell phones. They will let users download pre- selected audio from their PC, dump it on their cell phones and listen to it in their car stereos. In culture, a Michigan appeals court tosses out a lawsuit against rapper Eminem. The panel ruled a man who admits he picked on Eminem in high school can not sue the rapper for writing about the abuse in the song "Brain Damage." In sports, the New Jersey Nets now hold their playoff destiny in their own hands after beating the Philadelphia 76ers 104 to 83. The Nets are tied for the final playoff spot with Cleveland and are assured a spot if they win their last two games Chad.
[Myers:] Good morning, Carol.
[Costello:] You're right about that. Thank you Chad.
[Myers:] You're welcome.
[Costello:] That's a look at the latest headlines for you this morning. Most of us live an entire lifetime and never accomplish what Marla Ruzicka has, she's campaigned for civilian victims of the wars of Afghanistan and Iraq. And now, at the age of 28, she's become a victim herself, killed in a Baghdad car bombing over the weekend. Here's CNN's Jane Arraf.
[Jane Arraf, Cnn Correspondent:] Marla Ruzicka had a knack for making friends and a passion for helping the helpless. She could have stayed in California, but she spent her time in Iraq and Afghanistan.
[Marla Ruzicka, Campaign For Innocent Victims Of Conflict:] And instead of watching these terrible images and being depressed, one, you're sad. You always are sad. But trying to figure out what can we do? How can we help people?
[Arraf:] So she hit the streets working her way through war torn Baghdad to find out where she could get help.
[Ruzicka:] I'm frustrated, because I go to the HOC, I go to the CPA and I'm just like, who do I talk to? And nobody knows.
[Arraf:] She convinced U.S. lawmakers to appropriate money for civilian victims of U.S. military campaigns. Marla saw more suffering in a day than most people ever do and still kept her sunny disposition. On this trip, we went with her to visit Nazhira Mohammed Brisin who had lost eight members of her family when a missile hit their car. Marla told American soldiers the baby would die if she weren't airlifted to a hospital.
[Ruzicka:] We tried to get her immediate medical help and to save her life. And we did save her life, but her body couldn't take the burns.
[Arraf:] She and her Iraqi assistant, Via Sasalam, set up a project with 150 volunteers to do a survey of civilian victims.
[Ruzicka:] But we have about 5,000 cases, not necessarily of deaths, but where homes were destroyed, where people were very critically injured. And, you know, for me, I try as much as I can to go to families and say we're very sorry, we're working to try to get you some assistance and to kind of help them have some reconciliation and some closure. And to let them know that Americans do care about their well being.
[Arraf:] At hospitals, grieving relatives would approach her, like this man whose two children were killed.
[Ruzicka:] I'm very sorry. I don't know what it's like to lose a child, but it pains me to know.
[Arraf:] Marla thought about the risks of working in Iraq, but she didn't let them stop her.
[Ruzicka:] But you just have to keep your eyes open and let people know what you're doing and what you're about and people I feel that a lot of people really appreciate our campaign so they take a lot of care of myself and other people that work for me.
[Arraf:] At 28, Marla had lived more, done more than most people do over a long, long lifetime. Jane Arraf, CNN, Baghdad.