[Roberts:] 20 minutes now to the top of the hour. Our next guest sparked great controversy with her sweeping reforms of the Washington, D.C. school systems. She closed two dozen failing schools, laid off hundreds of teachers, and brought private money into the public school system. Now she's taking her reform efforts national through a new non-partisan education advocacy group entitled "Students First." And Michelle Rhee joins us now. Michelle, it's great to see you this morning. Your goal for this is a million members and at $1 billion in funding over the first year. What are the goals of "Students First"?
[Michelle Rhee, Founder & Ceo, Students First:] Well, we're focused on forming things within "Students First." The first is making sure that there is a great teacher in every single classroom knowing that great teachers matter for every student. The second is to create a choice for parents so that being in an excellent school is not a matter of luck for families but is a matter of fact. The third is really making sure that we're spending the money where it matters most. We want to move money away from bureaucracies and ineffective programs and into what works. And the last is to really involve parents and the entire community in ensuring that public education improve. We're really in a crisis right now in America, as it pertains to public education. I think most people don't understand the extent to which that this is a problem in this country. And so what we want to do is raise awareness about that.
[Roberts:] So these are all things that you were trying to do in Washington, D.C. and after seeing the reaction there, what's your sense about the political will to enact tough school reform?
[Rhee:] Well, I think there's not enough political will currently. And that's part of what "Students First" is going to do. You know, you've got lots of interest groups out there right now that are driving the educational agenda. You have textbook manufacturers, you have teachers' unions, and you even have food service people. But the problem is that there is no organized interest group that's advocating sorely on behalf of children within public education. The kind of interest group that's going to have enough heft to shift the balance of power and make sure that we're making policies and decisions based on what's good and right for kids instead of what's good for adults.
[Roberts:] You mentioned teachers' unions there, and I don't think it's any secret that you and the teachers unions weren't the best of friends during your tenure as chancellor there in D.C.. You said in a "Newsweek" article that has the cover story of "Newsweek" this week that you could have done a better job of communicating what you wanted to do with teachers. You say "I did a particularly bad job letting the many good teachers know that I considered them to be the most important part of the equation. I should have said that the effect of teachers "you don't have anything to worry about, my job is to make your life better, offer you more support, and pay you more. So after the experience that you had with the teachers unions, how do you convince them to support your goals of Students First?
[Rhee:] Well, there's a big difference between the teachers who are in the classroom and the teachers union.
[Roberts:] Of course.
[Rhee:] Because what I found over the last couple of months is I've heard from people across the country, including a lot of teachers is, you know, I've heard a lot of teachers who are frustrated with the system, who feel like they're not getting the support that they need, who really don't believe in the things that the teachers union themselves are pushing like tenure and seniority protections and those sorts of things because they want to be held accountable. But they also want to be recognized and rewarded for the work that they're doing. So I think it's important we be able to separate, you know, what some effective teachers believe in public education versus what the teachers union is saying. And that we kind of break up the monolithic teacher voice that's out there. And I think that, you know, our message is simple which is that there are lots and lots of amazing teachers out there who are doing wonderful things for kids every day. And we should value them, and recognize them, and pay them what they deserve to be paid. But there are also ineffective teachers out there. And for those folks, we need to either quickly improve them or swiftly move them out of the classroom. And the days of giving people a job for life regardless of performance when they're actually hurting kids, those have to end.
[Roberts:] Also in your article in "Newsweek" magazine, you quote secretary of education Arne Duncan who says that the education reform is the civil rights issue of our generation. And you point out that the civil rights movement required confrontation as well as discussion. And here's what Randi Weingarten of the American Federation of Teachers says about that. She says that she hopes that you learned, as we have, that promoting education reform through conflict and division will not serve the interests of children and their educational needs. So a question that I have is, when it comes to confrontation here in favor of education or reform, what level of confrontation are you prepared to take on?
[Rhee:] I'm prepared to take on a high level of confrontation and conflict in favor of our kids. Because, look, I'm sure the teachers' union doesn't want a lot of confrontation because they don't want to be confronted with the facts, which are that often times the policies that they are pushing, while they are fine for the adults, are actually not good for kids.
[Roberts:] So it raises the question, are you preparing to go to war with teachers' union?
[Rhee:] You know what? This is not about a war against the teachers' union. For me, it's about fighting for kids. And right now, we have a system that is set up to think about what is fair and right for adults, but is not taking into account what is good and right for children. And sometimes those things are in alignment. And when that's the case, that's absolutely great. But at some times, those things are in conflict. And when they are, we always have to choose children and students. But the problem is that's not what the practice has been to date. If you look at some of the practices that exist in this country, so, for example, one of the things is how we lay off teachers. Right now we lay teachers off based on seniority solely. Because a teachers' union will say, well that's the only fair way to do it. But that fairness is fair to the adults. Because what we end up doing often times is laying off new teachers who are actually more effective than a whole lot of ineffective veteran teachers.
[Roberts:] So
[Rhee:] And so again, those are policies that are adult first policies. And what Students First is doing is trying to put the children at the forefront.
[Roberts:] You know, the great dichotomy in this country, Michelle, is that we have some of the best universities, if not the best universities in the world. I think Oxford might have outranked Harvard this year. But at the same time we have so many problems with our public school system and among the 30 most developed countries of the world, we're still ranking in the mid-20s when it comes to science, math, and English.
[Rhee:] Right.
[Roberts:] You point out in the your "Newsweek" article that this generation that's currently in school now, could be less educated than the generation before it, and that's the first time this will have ever happened in this country. How much trouble will we be in if we don't reform education and do it soon?
[Rhee:] We are on a path to be in serious trouble in this country. You know, over the next 20 years, there will be about 123 million high- skill and high-paying jobs in this country. And at the rate that we're moving right now, Americans will only be able to fill about 50 million of those jobs because we are not preparing the next generation of kids to be competitive. So that means that the vast majority of those jobs will be going to kids in India, China, Korea. That, to me, is absolutely unacceptable. You know, America used to be number one, we used to be the best. I think we can be again. But the only way that we're going to be able to regain our position in the global marketplace is if we fix our public education system.
[Roberts:] All right. I just want to point out too, when I say English, what I really mean is reading.
[Rhee:] Yes.
[Roberts:] Michelle Rhee, good to talk to you this morning. Thanks so much. We'll keep watching this, see where it goes.
[Rhee:] Thank you.
[Roberts:] Really appreciate it. Forty-eight minutes past the hour, we'll be right back.