[Brooke Baldwin, Cnn Anchor:] And what happens once you know, once they make a decision?
[Manu Raju, Cnn Senior Political Correspondent:] Well, we do expect a vote this afternoon. It has been taking some time because the voting process is sort of a freewheeling process. Different members could offer different amendments. They can speak for as long as they want, as and we know members of Congress like to speak. So, we expect this to go on perhaps for another couple of hours before we get to the final vote here in the House Judiciary Committee to hold the attorney general in contempt for defying the Democratic subpoena that would that called for him to turn over the full Mueller report and the underlying evidence, after days of talks to try to find a middle ground that broke down and ultimately led the president to take the dramatic move this morning to invoke executive privilege and saying that information cannot be turned over. Now, the question is, what next? The House floor the full House will consider the contempt citation in a matter of days. We don't know exactly when. Nancy Pelosi's office has not made that decision yet known publicly. And, also, some Democrats are saying, we needed to be even tougher than contempt citation. And some, Brooke, are saying it's time to start talking about impeachment.
[Rep. Cedric Richmond:] Do I think we're inching closer to it every day that the president has a blanket privilege or just saying that he's going to obstruct the congressional investigation? Yes, for me, we're inching towards it.
[Raju:] Do you think this committee should start talking about another thing, impeachment?
[Rep. Veronica Escobar:] I think we have to talk about it.
[Raju:] But the Democratic leadership not quite where a number of their members in the rank and file are. They, including Nancy Pelosi, say going through the impeachment process is divisive. It could eventually lead to the to the being to fail in the Senate, because it's controlled by Republicans. You need of course, you need two-thirds majority to convict a president, so why go through that process? But, nevertheless, the White House's refusal to provide documents, to comply with subpoenas, to try to instruct people to not comply with subpoenas, like the former White House counsel Don McGahn, and this latest move today all feeding into the Democratic push to take a tougher line against this White House. You will see this contempt citation play out, and then you will see legal action. Democrats will soon file lawsuits to try to compel the administration to comply with their requests, all part of this growing fight between the two branches of government that may require the third branch of government, the courts, to come in and resolve this Brooke.
[Baldwin:] And, again, to go back to Laura Jarrett's reporting, with everything you're saying, still, the potential Mueller testimony would not be impacted by this invoking of executive privilege. Manu Raju, thank you very much. Back to Chairman Nadler, the head of the House Judiciary. He has just added a new a new weight to a term that he even he says is often overused, constitutional crisis. This is what Jerry Nadler told CNN's Alisyn Camerota.
[Rep. Jerrold Nadler:] Certainly, it's a constitutional crisis, although I don't like to use that phrase because it's been used for far less dangerous situations. The phrase has been overused.
[Alisyn Camerota, Cnn Anchor:] I hear you. But you feel that we are currently in a constitutional crisis or headed for one?
[Nadler:] No, no, we're in one. We're in one because the president is disobeying the law, is refusing all information to the Congress.
[Baldwin:] CNN presidential historian Tim Naftali is a former director of the Nixon Presidential Library. And he's with me, as is CNN legal analyst Carrie Cordero. She served as the counsel to the assistant attorney general for national security. So, welcome, welcome to both of you. And, Tim, just off of Chairman Nadler saying we are in a constitutional crisis, do you think he's right?
[Tim Naftali, Cnn Presidential Historian:] Well, we're definitely in a political crisis. What I think Chairman Nadler has to do is explain to the American people what it was exactly that he couldn't get through these negotiations with Barr. See, it's fairly important for the American people to feel that there was some effort to strike a balance and to achieve what the public needed to know to determine the president's the nature of the president's rule. And I think the Democrats have not been as forthcoming as they should be to explain exactly why negotiations broke down. There is no doubt that President Trump overreacted today by asserting...
[Baldwin:] This blanket...
[Naftali:] ... blanket there's no constitutional justification for what he did. But I think, at this moment, a lot of Americans are just seeing the Republicans and Democrats screaming at each other. And the details which are so important are being lost. I think, if Nadler and Pelosi can make the case that we needed this information in order to to understand this and that, it would be a lot clearer in American minds. Right now, the president is assuming that Americans don't care about the details and are going to see this as yet another partisan battle.
[Baldwin:] So you want more of the details from the Democrats. And to this point, Carrie, about invoking this blanket blanket executive privilege, for people who are following along so closely, can you just remind everyone what executive privilege is and what it covers?
[Carrie Cordero, Cnn Legal Analyst:] So, executive privilege is a privilege that is asserted by the president that covers deliberations. In other words, for close advisers, people in the White House and other executive branch senior officials to be able to give the president advice, it's a privilege he can assert, so that he can fulfill his duties and know that those deliberations and those conversations are in confidence. And it's a privilege that can be asserted by presidents. It's been asserted by presidents of both administrations. Tim is exactly right that the details really matter here, and they have legal significance. And the reason is that, when privileges are asserted, whether it's executive privilege or another kind of privilege, what they are being asserted over is what matters, so the specific types of documents or the specific witness who is being requested to come speak to Congress. And they're not they're not asserted in the abstract. It has to be about specific data points. And that's what's getting lost in this back and forth between Congress and the executive branch, is we have Chairman Nadler, who is saying that the executive branch is not being responsive, but we don't actually know what specifically it is that he's requesting. Same with there are other requests that an outstanding request by the House Intelligence Committee. Both the chairman and the ranking member have made requests for information. And so and they're not being responded to. So what the White House has done is overbroad, but they're preserving their ability to assert the privilege over specific things.
[Baldwin:] Got it. And I see you. You're nodding. And I just want to ask you, as there are few people who know more about history and President Nixon. She mentioned previous presidents have tried to assert executive privilege. He did.
[Naftali:] Yes. But because the special prosecutor in the Nixon era and the House Judiciary Committee were so careful in what they asked for, Republicans supported them, not all Republicans, but supported them and felt the president was stonewalling. Well, and that's why I mean, I think Carrie and I are in complete agreement.
[Baldwin:] Yes.
[Naftali:] What you need to do is you need is nonpartisan, fair-minded elected officials to say, you know what, the White House needs to hand this stuff, this particular stuff over. Right now, the coverage I have seen gives the impression that Chairman Nadler has asked for all underlying documents, which means potentially all raw investigative files.
[Baldwin:] Still under way, yes.
[Naftali:] But let me tell you, Congress asked for all the raw investigative files from the Watergate special prosecution force after Nixon left office, and the Watergate special prosecution force said, we can't do it. Even that group couldn't do it. So there's no precedent for actually turning over the raw files. So what exactly do they want? I suspect what they want is necessary for the public to know. But, at the moment, we don't know those details. That's how you make this argument to the American people.
[Baldwin:] Do you think, Carrie, that, legally, Chairman Nadler is fighting this losing battle, but then, politically speaking, does he have to he and the Democrats have to appear that they are exhausting all efforts to then ultimately perhaps tackle the mountain that is impeachment proceedings?
[Cordero:] Well, I mean, that's why this, of course, because does become a political question. I actually tend to think that, politically, the contempt hearing for the attorney general is counterproductive, if their goal is to be able to get to impeachment proceedings. The Mueller report is about the conduct of the Trump campaign, and it's about the conduct of the president as it pertains to his pattern of obstructive behavior that is laid out in detail in the report. This diversion to the attorney general really doesn't help answer the question as to whether or not Congress is going to open impeachment inquiry, which I and others think that there certainly is a basis, based on the report. And, unfortunately, that's why I think, politically, this turning the attention over to the attorney general might be politically counterproductive.
[Baldwin:] Counterproductive and a diversion. Carrie Cordero, thank you very much for your opinion.
[Cordero:] Thanks.
[Baldwin:] And, Tim Naftali, as always, thank you so much.
[Naftali:] Thank you.
[Baldwin:] Coming up next: a possible reason President Trump has been just so defiant about releasing his tax returns, "The New York Times" revealing he may have lost more money than nearly any other U.S. taxpayer during a 10-year period. So we will see if he responds to that this hour as he leaves the White House to head to Florida. We will take you there live if he talks to reporters. Also, yet another school shooting rocks the nation. One student has been killed, eight others wounded at a school in Colorado, as terrified children look on. The father of a sixth-grader who survived joins me live.