[Gene Randall, Cnn Anchor:] More now on the trade agreement with China from Manhattan Democratic Congressman Joseph Crowley of New York. He is against the bill. Mr. Crowley, President Clinton first scheduled a nationwide address in the Oval Office on Sunday night to push for passage of this trade agreement with China, and then canceled it. Why do you suppose did he that? Would he not have changed any minds among Democrats?
[Rep. Joseph Crowley , New York:] Well, I think at this point, the concern not to lose any more support that he may be capable of getting at this point. I think for the most part, people have made up their minds; it's more matter of public jockeying at this point. And I think the people on my side of the issue here who are opposed to China PNTR would not look favorably upon the president coming out at this point putting any more pressure on them than they have already.
[Randall:] Some people would look at the president's change of plans and say, oh well, must thing he has the votes? Do you think that he does?
[Crowley:] Well I think at this point in time, it looks as though the favor is in their direction, but I wouldn't sell it out yet. I wouldn't say this is over by any means. It's very fluid, it's in a state of flux, and I think that any movement by either side could change positions on this issue.
[Randall:] Mr. Crowley, what is that most bothers you about this trade agreement with China?
[Crowley:] Well, there are a number of issues. Obviously, the human rights, the issue of you know, discrimination against Roman Catholics, the Falon Gong, the Tibetan monks, the use of slave labor, basically, or forced labor, non-compensated labor in camps, some 1,100 of them throughout the entire country of China, the environmental problems that that country has some of the most polluted cities in the entire world are in China the proliferation of nuclear weapons to rogue states, Like Iraq, like North Korea. These are issues, as well as the fact that China has never followed through on previous agreement with our country. There are some 12 agreements that they have never fully complied with in the past, and these are all issues they can combine to leave any member of Congress, certainly the American people a very concerned about the potential of granting permanent trade relations. I am in favor of normal trade relations and voting for this on and I voted for last year on an annual basis. I believe that being engaged in China, I think for both countries, is mutually beneficial. But at the same time, I don't think we should be rewarding a country like China that has an abysmal human rights record, amongst the other issues that I mentioned as well.
[Randall:] Mr. Crowley, is there anything that would convince you that in fact this treaty in the interests of the United States?
[Crowley:] Well, there are certain things in this treaty that if you look at in face value, you would say, oh boy this is something really good for the United States. But Chinese just have an abysmal record at this time. I am not saying that in the future we shouldn't look at fair trade. I am for fair trade. I am for fair trade with China. But they are not politically or economically ready to have a fair trade policy with the United States.
[Randall:] How long do you think it will take before your position on this is justified, if the agreement is approved by the House and the Senate? And it will be easier time in the Senate. How long do you think it will be before it is apparent to those who favor the treaty that it was a mistake?
[Crowley:] Well, I think once we see, again, like what happened in 1989 in Tiananmen Square, a major human rights problem in China, that people will realize that this was not the right time to do this.
[Randall:] Excuse me, let meet interrupt you, because we need to Jacksonville, Florida. We've just gotten our connection through with Representative Tillie Fowler, Republican in Florida. You will vote in favor of the treaty. Do you have the votes?
[Rep. Tillie Fowler , Florida:] Right now we do, Gene. We've got 184 votes that are either saying yes or leaning yes, about 164 nos or lean nos. So we are ahead. I think we will stay ahead. I think will be a close vote on Wednesday, but I do think in the end the U.S. House of Representative will vote in the favor of the permanent normal trade relations with China.
[Randall:] Mrs. Fowler, Republicans have long argued that there was need for the president to gone on nationwide TV to push for the treaty. He made the plan to do that at 7:00 Eastern Time Sunday night, and then he scrapped it. Now do you think that was a good idea, to cancel the speech?
[Fowler:] No, I don't. I mean, certainly the president is supposed to lead this nation, and this is a very critical issue facing the Congress, facing the country. He needs be educating the country as to how important it is and why it will be good for this country. So I am very disappointed that the president gave into political pressure and canceled his speech. This one more time shows how this president is not willing to lead the country when difficult decisions have to be made.
[Randall:] Let me play devil's advocate, Mrs. Fowler, when you announced your support for the agreement, you said:"The best way to tame the communist bear is not poke it in eye, but to endear yourself to its cubs." Now some people would say that is naive, and the bear has no intention of doing that.
[Fowler:] Oh, I disagree. You know, we watched years ago capitalism rip through the iron curtain, and we've got a perfect opportunity now to see capitalism tear through communist China. It's going to have a tremendous impact on the dynamics between our two countries once we admit China to the WTO and we expand trade between our countries. And you have to remember that once they come into the WTO, they will come under the rule of international law. They are going to have change many of their trading policies and many of their laws. They've got problems in their country right now, with people going to premier complaining that they are going to loss their jobs, that they are going to have change the way they do these state-owned factories. It's goings to be a great much greater change in China. We all stand benefit in this country from PNTR. It's a win-win for the United States.
[Randall:] Mrs. Fowler you took quite a while to announce your support for this agreement. Should I understand then that there were compelling arguments for you to vote against it at one point?
[Fowler:] Well, I've always you know, anything that's this tremendously important. I did the same thing on NAFTA. I wanted first to read their agreement, to understand what was in it, because I knew what we'd agreed to last April, and then when the president at the last minute backed off. I wanted to make sure it hadn't changed, that we still, the United States, had gotten all the gains and all access we had wanted. We did. I was very pleased to see that. I talked to some of the military people about my national security concerns, because I wanted to get those questions answered. And I feel very comfortable that the way that we want to ensure stability in that region is as we have capitalism take hold there and there businesses see that if we allow disruptions in their economic opportunities, then they're going to be stabilizing force in China, saying, hey wait, don't start saber-rattling with Taiwan, don't start being the aggressor here, because we as a country have a lot more to lose than to gain. So I think you're going to see a stabilizing force as the Chinese economy becomes more open.
[Randall:] Mrs. Fowler, thank you.
[Fowler:] Thank you. And, Mr. Crowley, does the fight continue this weekend?
[Crowley:] I think it does. I think it's important to note that last year I have a great deal of respect for Tillie Fowler, but last year, she voted against normal trade relations.
[Fowler:] Yes, I sure did.
[Crowley:] Nothing has changed in China in this last year. In fact, it's gotten worse. The crackdown on human rights has gotten worse. It's not getting better.
[Randall:] Mr. Crowley Crowley, thank you. And Mrs. Fowler, thanks very much.
[Fowler:] Thank you. It has gotten better. Thank you.