[Cuomo:] All right. We're back. Arizona republican Senator Jeff Flake says politics has turned too destructive and he blames his party and our president, President Trump. It's part of his book, "Conscience of a Conservative." And in it the senator writes, "To carry on in the spring of 2017 as if what happened was anything approaching normalcy required a determined suspension of critical faculties and tremendous powers of denial." Senator Flake also said this to my colleague Jake Tapper earlier today. Take a listen.
[Jeff Flake,  United States Senator:] We've kind of as republicans taken up taken up an unfamiliar banner that you know, this populism and you know, in some cases xenophobia, anti-immigration, protectionism. That's not familiar to us and I don't think that that is a governing philosophy.
[Cuomo:] So the senator is making a very specific argument. Let's discussdebate. We have CNN political commentator Jack Kingston, former senior adviser to the Trump campaign, and republican strategist, Rick Wilson. Gentlemen, thank you very much. Jack, I start with you. What, first of all, good to have you both here. Thank you for joining us. What do you make of the senator's argument about what has happened within the party and what the president means to it.
[Jack Kingston, Political Commentator, Cnn:] Chris, I had the honor of sharing third base on the congressional baseball team with Senator Flake. He got more game time than I did, but I got to know him very well. Jeff has always been an independent thinker, always kind of out there a little bit. He had what we used to call the Flake amendments where he would take on earmarks from either party. So he is fearless when it comes time to criticize. But as I read one of the articles today about him, his conclusions were we needed to protect the filibuster which I think the filibuster is one of the big problems with the Senate. It keeps them arrogant and aloof. I think disconnected with the American people. He said that the president was guilty of playing to his base and I would say no duh, what president doesn't play to his base. And then he said we needed to have free trade. Well, we all support free trade but the other word is fair trade. And what the president has said about NAFTA, it's 20 years old. We need to renegotiate it. What he said about TPP was the same thing Hillary Clinton said.
[Cuomo:] Right.
[Kingston:] So, you know, I think his conclusions were on what we needed to do, I think they were a little bit weak on substance.
[Cuomo:] Well, the senator is making a little bit different point. And I'll redirect it to you, Rick. The senator is not talking about the what as much as the how. Another excerpt from the book that makes this point. "Too often, we observe the unfolding drama along with the rest of the country passively. All but saying, someone should do something. Without seeming to realize that that someone is us, the silence from McConnell, the silence from Ryan with outrage after outrage and strange things that come out of White House." That's what the senator is talking about, not the policy, not TPP but how he conducts the business of the White House and being America's leader. What's your take on that, Rick?
[Rick Wilson, Republican Strategist:] There is a very broad sense that Senator Flake has touched on something that a lot of folks inside the party recognize is that Donald Trump is not a conservative. He is not a republican in the sense that we've understood being a republican or being a conservative for a long time. He is not about limited government or individual liberty or the rule of law or any of these things that are the normative forces that shaped consecutives for a very long time. He's a populist is, sometimes he's a very effective populist but that's not conservatism. And the things that he does behaviorally are also very distant from what we've always considered to be, again, normal conservative behavior and the things that we would expect and hope that a president would have, dignity, intellectual discipline, a sense of the majesty and honor of the White House and the role he plays. And I think Senator Flake has identified a lot of these problems that folks inside the party have identified and agree with, many of them are afraid to say anything about it, many of them the afraid the fear of the mean tweet is there. But that's something that he's definitely touched on.
[Kingston:] Rick, those are the party elites. The party elite doesn't like Donald Trump. And they've been saying that same thing. But here's a guy who for every new regulation he's put on the books, he's repealed 19 regulations. That's conservative. Here's a guy who has invested in our military and improved our strength and our stature abroad. The same thing that he proposed...
[Wilson:] Jack, Jack, here's the thing. Donald Trump has proposed Donald Trump has proposed expansions.
[Cuomo:] One at a time. Jack, finish your point and let Rick respond.
[Kingston:] He's working for energy independence, protecting our borders and cutting down on illegal immigration. That those are conservative principles, Rick. And I know that a lot of the elite in town doesn't like the way he's ruffled feathers to get the job done but he is getting a conservative agenda through.
[Cuomo:] Rick, your response.
[Wilson:] The conservative things that Donald Trump does are incidental coincidental and accidental. What happens with this with a guy like Donald Trump, he's talking about wildly expanding the power of the state. I'm a conservative. I don't want...
[Kingston:] You mean evolve in power back in the state government? ... a stronger more powerful government. He's talking Jack, I let you speak. He's talking about expanding the power of the state dramatically. He's talking about engaging in trade wars. He is a guy who lacks the mental discipline to understand the complexities of the foreign affairs challenges that face us right now. So I really don't think that you can just say that the occasional things that you get from regulatory rollbacks with Donald Trump comprise a consistent conservative philosophy. Rick.
[Wilson:] And a coherent intellectual framework of conservatism. And you know, the elites, Jack, have a benefit once in a while is that they don't just respond to the base emotions of the screaming crowd. That is Donald Trump's forte. That's what he loves. That's his gig. I get it. OK? He doesn't have the intellectual bandwidth for conservative philosophy to really talk about conservatism.
[Kingston:] Well, you know, I'm sorry [Inaudible] Rick, but that's what democracy is about is every man, one man, one vote. What did you think about...
[Wislon:] May I remind you we're in a republic, congressman.
[Kingston:] ... his speech in Poland? His speech in Poland in defense of the west and western values, I thought it was a speech not just for the day not just for the week but for the decade. Even for decades to be studied about the difference between the west and the terrorism and the recklessness and the lack of the rule of law in the rest of the world or a lot of the world.
[Wilson:] Right.
[Kingston:] And I thought it was real leadership. And here we get the president of France inviting him back for Bastille Day? And this was the guy who according to the E.U. and all the liberals socialist over in Europe, he is horrible. He is horrible. But guess who invites him back for Bastille Day? The president of France.
[Cuomo:] OK.
[Kingston:] A very significant stride that he makes.
[Cuomo:] Jack, we take your point. Rick, quick button. We have to go.
[Wilson:] Listen, I think we're in a situation now where a lot of conservatives are really looking at the behavior of Trump more than just the promises. The promises aren't being met. The behavior is evident every day and it's a problem for conservatives.
[Cuomo:] Rick Wilson, Jack Kingston. Thank you for the robust debate. I appreciate you both.
[Kingston:] Thanks, Chris.
[Cuomo:] All right. I want to turn now to the latest White House shake up. Is it really going to change the balance of power in the West Wing? How so? What about Ivanka Trump's tweet about the new chief of staff General John Kelly. Here it is. "Looking forward to serving alongside John Kelly as we work for the American people." Working alongside is what caught the eye. Why? Because General Kelly is supposedly everyone's boss now. Everyone has been put underneath him. Does that include the children? Let's discuss. We got Tim O'Brien, executive editor of bloomberg View and author of "Trump Nation," and Annie Karni, White House reporter for Politico. Thank you both for bow being here. So John Kelly, general, military. Trump respects him, we are told, especially when in uniform. He's in charge of everyone. Then Ivanka's tweet comes out. Was this a nudge against power or just an ownership of the obvious which is I'm his daughter. I don't, you know, you don't stand between me and my father. How do you recommend?
[Timothy O'brien, Executive Editor, Bloomberg View:] Jared and I are first among equals. I don't think that I'm doubtful that Kelly will make a difference in this White House. The reality is that Trump is his centrifugal force. He pushes everyone away from him except family members. He is he can't be disciplined. I think that ultimately Kelly is going to be trying to lasso the world in here with trump. And that's the problem in this. It's never going to be an organization that's run in a linear tactical way because that's not how Trump rules. He's in it I think for self-aggrandizement and self- preservation. I think, you know, your previous guest talking about where Trump where trump ideology is. I think it's a mistaken path and to understand he's not about ideology. He's really about almost...
[Cuomo:] People see that as refreshing. He's pragmatic.
[O'brien:] Yes.
[Cuomo:] He's about the empirical. He just does what works. That would be the virtue.
[O'brien:] He think he can get it done. He's got to get it done. So refreshing alone doesn't get policy put in place.
[Cuomo:] So, Annie, respond to that. Let me put my wedding band on my pinky ring for a second so I can make this point more easily. The head rots from the the fish rots from the head down. That was what's Scaramucci into the ether and Mario Cantone and now I can't say it without laughing. But the truth of it is that leadership begins at the top. Tone begins at the top.
[Annie Karni, White House Reporter, Politico:] Yes.
[Cuomo:] So, yes, General John Kelly. People say you look in his eyes and you realize he is no joke. But you also realize he is not the president. So how much change can come from beneath?
[Karni:] Well, I would just say that the fact that there were four rival power centers and a weak chief of staff who couldn't control who the president talked to and didn't have most of the staff reporting to him wasn't didn't just happen. Trump set it up this way and it's the same play book he's been using for 30 years. He likes to see play people against each other to see them fight, to know that they all are trying to fight for his favor. That's the way he ran his business and that's the way he ran the White House for the first six months. I don't know if John Kelly wants to impose some new order and firing Scaramucci was a nice way of showing that things are going to be different. I don't know if Trump will like that. And if Ivanka and Jared have said they plan to abide by the new rules. They wanted Priebus out, they wanted someone who can be more orderly. But what John Kelly can't control is that they have access to the president in the East Wing whatever they want.
[Cuomo:] Right.
[Karni:] Even if they technically report to him...
[Cuomo:] But would anybody expect differently, though, Annie? Wouldn't that be unfair if not impractical to say that Ivanka, Jared, that they would have to go to the general before they can go to their father? Isn't just that an impossibility?
[Karni:] It's just, I mean, no chief of staff in history has had to deal with family members reporting to him. And, I mean, they can say they want to report to him but if Jared and Ivanka have dinner with their dad, are they going to go tell Kelly what they discussed and read out every conversation they have with Trump on their private time. It's just so blurry which is the way Trump what happens when you have family members serving in senior positions.
[Cuomo:] Well, also there is a distinction to be drawn, you brought it up there, it's a good point, Annie. Let me bounce it back to Tim. Which is there's a difference between being an intimate and being an instrument. And sometimes people around Trump can confuse themselves for one when they are the other, entertain Anthony Scaramucci. Now, I put to the side these ideas that he was brought in as a single purpose vehicle to get out Priebus. I believe we often ascribe sophistication and strategy so situation with Trump that are random or reactionary. And he's got a good ear and a good gut as we both know. So the idea that the general would get rid of Scaramucci and the president wouldn't know or wouldn't approve I think unlikely. What do you think?
[O'brien:] I think highly unlikely. I think that...
[Cuomo:] So what does that mean about loyalty? Because if Anthony Scaramucci was anything I know I know it is fair right now to attack him and I know that that's very popular. He was loyal to the president. He believed in the president and he's gone.
[O'brien:] Wore his loyalty on his sleeve. And I think that, I think the intimacy thing you point out is spot on. Because the only intimates are his family members, and the only intimate in this White House are Jared and Ivanka and everyone else is fungible beyond that, and that's a problem because Jared and Ivanka in over their heads. They lack the relevant experience and skills to be playing the roles they're playing there. The president himself is in desperate need of wise counsel and he doesn't take it and most of the adults in this administration, maybe with the exception of Mattis have been sidelined.
[Cuomo:] Tim O'Brien, I appreciate it as always.
[O'brien:] Thank you.
[Cuomo:] Annie Karni, thank you very much. Provocative thoughts needed on this occasion. All right. We're going to be in just a second. I mangled one of the best going impersonations out there. You know how you love Melissa McCarthy as Sean Spicer, right, then comes actor singer-performer Mario Cantone, who picked up the mantle of the mooch with a performance of Anthony Scaramucci that went viral. He's back. Here's the taste of his latest attempt. The Scaramucci goodbye.
[Mario Cantone, Actor:] I was a threat. The second I walked through the White House, my days were numbered. Look at me. I'm trim, I'm good looking. I dressed sharp. I smell good. The kind of war. You're going to want to lick me like a popsicle. I smell better than anybody on Trump's team. Those guys smelled like canned corn and that's the first thing in the morning.