[Anderson Cooper, Cnn:] And good evening, everyone. Today the death toll from coronavirus rose above 28,000, and state governors across the country grappled with the difficult question of when, how and to what extent they could begin trying trying to reestablish some kind of normalcy. Well today, the state governors also learned, once again, something about the President of the United States. And that's because once again today, the President spent a large part of what has become a substitute for his political rallies which supposed to be the coronavirus task force briefing he spent it boasting of his accomplishments accomplishments he's yet to actually accomplish and deflecting blame. He's eager, understandably, to reopen the country, as he so often says, and said so again today. What he did not do was provide any evidence that his administration has taken the steps needed for that to actually happen safely in a way that won't trigger new outbreaks and cost more lives. One such step is widespread testing, which the president has both derided and claimed that is currently happening. Keep in mind though there is not a widespread testing we will ultimately need to get back to business. There just isn't. And that's not just us saying so. It is scientists on the coronavirus task force, epidemiologists. It's also some of the country's top business executives. They told the President that today. And when he was asked about it at tonight's briefing, he first tried to claim credit where none is due, and then tried to put the responsibility elsewhere. First, though, the boasting.
[Kaitlan Collins, Cnn White House Correspondent:] On a call with business leaders today, they said testing has got to be ramped up significantly before the country before they feel comfortable re- opening their stores, their restaurants, and what not. Isn't that what health officials and state governors have been saying to you?
[Donald Trump, President Of The United States:] That's what I want too. We have great tests, and we want the states to administer these tests for the most part, but we're standing behind them. We have great tests. We've done more testing now than any country, as you know, in the world by far. We have the best tests of any country in the world. Nobody has the quality of tests.
[Cooper:] Great tests, best tests, most tests not true. Failed tests, delayed tests, not enough tests true. In fact, as has been reported for weeks now, this country is testing far fewer people as a percentage of the population than many other countries. And the number of tests being done has actually flattened out recently, not risen, due to shortage of swabs, chemicals or access to locations. As for federal responsibility though, here's what the President said in the very next breath.
[Trump:] We're not going to be running a parking lot in Arkansas. We're not going to be running a parking lot where you have a Walmart which has been great, by the way, Walmart has done a fantastic job but where you have a testing center and running that from Washington, D.C. The states are much better equipped to do it.
[Cooper:] Well the President nodded to the fact, which he acknowledged yesterday, that states will decide when and how to reopen, which we all knew all along would happen, except that's not what the President was saying. However, he also renewed his veiled threat if they don't do if the state governors don't do what he wants.
[Trump:] Well I think the companies will determine that, and the governors will determine that, and the federal government will. And if we're not happy, we'll take very strong action against a state or a governor. If we're not happy with the job a governor's doing, we'll let them know about it. And as you know, we have very strong action we can take, including a closedown.
[Cooper:] You do realize he repeats the word "strong" all the time and "power" or "powerful" in order to have people believe he is strong and therefore powerful by saying those words. Again, keeping him honest. The President of the United States does not have the power to tell a state to lift public health restrictions. That wasn't all. He also, again, blamed the World Health Organization, this time accusing the agency of a cover-up with respect to the outbreak. He also accused it of siding with China. He suggested that New York City is doing something wrong by reclassifying several thousand fatalities in people who had not been tested for the virus before they died as coronavirus cases. But then he quickly said, quote, "That's okay, that's okay," and, "Yes, there is controversy surrounding that, but no evidence of wrongdoing." But recall in the past, he made similar statements about medical supplies going out the back door of hospitals. What was missing in all of this was any sign of clear, achievable steps and plans for safely doing what the President and everybody wants so badly reopening the country some time. That, and taking responsibility for it for better or worse. If that weren't all, the President also lashed out at the Senate over not confirming his appointees. There's plenty to talk about tonight including with our public health experts, front line professionals.. Senator Kamala Harris of California also joins us about her state, which is formulating plans on how to reopen, but in a way that may look very different from the old normal. But first, let's go to CNN Chief White House Correspondent, Jim Acosta. So Jim, talk about what the President is threatening to do to Congress, because I didn't really mention it at this point. Because, to me, it seems like such an obvious and overused move by the President, which is, you know, terrible death toll today, divert attention away from that, and all the things that aren't being done or have been failed to do by lobbing a hand grenade, or trying to create some new villains to rail against and pretend as if you're going to be powerful and strong.
[Jim Acosta, Cnn Chief White House Correspondent:] Right, Anderson. I think today the bright, shiny object of the president was dangling in front of the press corps in the Rose Garden was this little known part of the Constitution that he says would allow him to essentially unilaterally shut down the Congress so he can get his recess appointments for various nominations that he's seen languishing up on Capitol Hill. The problem with that, Anderson, is a couple of things. One is, it's never been done before and so there are constitutional scholars who are saying, "Hold on a second, Mr. President, what are you talking about here?" The other thing is, is that it also depends on what happens in the Senate which is controlled by the Republicans and the Senate majority leader Mitch McConnell just put out a statement in the last several minutes essentially sounding cool to the idea. In one part of the statement, Anderson, the Senate majority leader says he's going to be working on some of these issues in terms of the president's recess appointments that he'd like to see go through, but he's going to be doing that with you know, working with the Senate minority leader, Chuck Schumer. And so, it sounds as if at this point Mitch McConnell is not onboard with this, which probably should give a lot of Americans reason to breathe a sigh of relief tonight, Anderson.
[Cooper:] Right. I mean, because he's the president, we all take it seriously as if it actually means something, but it's just like him saying he's going to order the governors and he's the one who determines when to reopen. As we were saying, that's not his role. He doesn't have that constitutional ability, but he dominates the news cycle for yet another night by this, you know, headline that he's going to adjourn Congress in the middle of the pandemic to appoint his nominees. I mean, do the bulk of these appointments have anything to do with the urgent needs during the pandemic?
[Acosta:] Well, he is mentioning the director of National Intelligence. He has an acting director of National Intelligence right now. But Anderson, he was also harping on the Broadcasting Board of Governors and talking about, you know, the people over at "Voice of America" and describing them as disgusting people who do disgusting things. This is another sign of the president's authoritarianism that is really coming out you know, out of the shadows to some extent during this pandemic. You know, he is essentially railing against the people at "Voice of America" because they won't put out propaganda, you know, about his administration saying what a wonderful job he's doing, a theme that we've heard before. But, Anderson, one thing we should point out is that right now there's an acting secretary of the Department of Homeland Security. The president has had over a year now to put in place a permanent secretary of Homeland Security and hasn't done that at this point, and that has little to do with, you know, lawmakers not doing what he wants up on Capitol Hill.
[Cooper:] Yes. Jim Acosta, appreciate it. Thanks. As we said at the top, a lot to get to tonight, so we'll step away from the political and take a wider view. CNN's Erica Hill joins us now. So Erica, the CDC now changing the way they're counting coronavirus deaths. Can you just explain that?
[Erica Hill, Cnn National Correspondent:] Yes. So now, Anderson, the CDC is saying they're going to include probable cases in their tabulations. That could add thousands, right, to the list that they have of patients and deaths. So what it changes is, not just counting those positive cases, but people who, like, probable case. And that's key, as we know, as we try to understand the breadth and the scope of this virus. How many people have been not only affected, but how many people may have been asymptomatic or may not have had a positive test. And all of that information is critical. We're hearing from officials as they make their decision on the next moves to reopen their states and their cities.
[Hill:] The iconic Hollywood Bowl will remain empty this year.
[Mayor Eric Garcetti, Los Angeles, California:] It's difficult to imagine us getting together in the thousands anytime soon. We've got many, many miles to walk before we're going to be back in those environments.
[Hill:] The mayors of Los Angeles and New York suggesting concerts and sporting events likely won't return before 2021.
[Mayor Bill De Blasio, New York City, New York:] We've got one chance. If we move too quick, we put 50,000 people in Yankee Stadium, and that's part of why you see a resurgence of the disease, that would be the worst of all worlds.
[Hill:] The mayor of New Orleans also recommending her city shelve major events like Jazz Fest until next year. As the president continues to push for a symbolic May 1 reopening, officials around the country are trying to adjust expectations.
[Gov. Jared Polis , Colorado:] We also know that we're in this for the long haul. The virus isn't going to disappear or go away anytime soon.
[Gov. Andrew Cuomo , New York:] I say, personal opinion, it's over when we have a vaccine. It's over when people know "I'm 100% safe and I don't have to worry about this."
[Hill:] That vaccine likely at least a year away.
[Dr. Robert Redfield, Director, Centers For Disease Control And Prevention:] We're going to have another battle with it, you know, up front and aggressively next winter. This is why it's so important that we take the time now to really improve our testing capacity, expand our public health capacity to do early case recognition, contact tracing and isolation. I call it block and tackle, block and tackle.
[Hill:] San Francisco is launching a partnership to tackle contact tracing. Los Angeles now offering same or next day testing to its 10 million residents. Anyone with COVID symptoms is eligible. In New Jersey, the nation's first saliva testing site, is now open. Major league baseball, pitching in for antibody testing. Players, their families, concession workers, some 10,000 volunteers in total, part of a nationwide study to better understand the infection and its spread. As Georgia prepares for a potential surge, Michigan's strict stay home orders brought protesters out in Lansing. New York and Connecticut announced new regulations for face coverings and in Massachusetts, which is now in the surge, the governor emotional talking about the 957 lives lost in his state.
[Gov. Charlie Baker , Massachusetts:] I pay attention to the numbers, but what I really think about mostly are the stories and the people who are behind the stories.
[Hill:] The story of Gregory Hodge, an EMT in New York, just one example of the many lives stopped short. The 24-year veteran of the FDNY assisted at the world Trade Centre after 911. He died as a result of COVID-19. Gregory Hodge was 59 years old.
[Cooper:] Erica, you mentioned New York and Connecticut having new regulations with face coverings. Explain the details on that.
[Hill:] So here in New York State the governor said he will be issuing an executive order, New Yorkers have three days to comply, but after that three-day period, anytime you're out, Anderson, you'll need to have your face covered. It can be a bandanna but your nose and your mouth must be covered. He says if you're the only person walking on the street, you don't have to have it on but have it with you because if you go to cross a street and there's someone else and you can't maintain that six feet of social distancing you need to have your face covered. In Connecticut the governor's saying similar things. He says he will likely order issue an executive order in the next 48 hours or so but just saying that in his conversations with several folks including Dr. Fauci he realizes that they really need to make a lot of these suggestions more permanent.
[Cooper:] Yes, and it seems like that's going to go on for a long time. Erica Hill, thank you. In addition to the sacrifices of New York's bravest and New York's finest, they have also paid a terrible price for their service. As of today, 25 members of the New York Police Department have lost their lives to the virus. Joining us now is CNN Chief Medical Correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta. So, Sanjay, the President is saying that the country has probably pasted the peak. What does that mean really, you know, for people's everyday lives if that's, in fact, the case?
[Dr Sanjay Gupta, Cnn Chief Medical Correspondent:] Yes, I don't think it really means anything now. I think people have really paid a lot of attention to this peak and sort of imagined it as a, you know, binary sort of before the peak, after the peak. You know, we're going to have to see does these trends that we're talking about do they hold up. Some of them are encouraging, as you know, Anderson, but the problem is that right now we're looking at a snapshot that really reflects the time period about two to three weeks ago between the time someone was exposed to the time they become symptomatic, a small percentage go to the hospital, even a smaller percentage die. If we're looking at deaths it really reflects three weeks ago, so we really have to see how the next few weeks go. And, Anderson, you remember those initial models that people paid a lot of attention to from the University of Washington, they talked about, you know, even if the peaks were happening now that nothing should really change at least until the end of May, first week of June in terms of stay-at- home orders.
[Cooper:] Business leaders tell the President there have to be, you know, guaranteed increase in testing before people really can return to work. How close are we to wide scale testing because I'm still not sure I understand what it's going to look like and you know, you and I have tried to get numbers on the number of people needed to do contact tracing and, you know, we've heard figures of 100,000 and the governor today said it would require an army of people in New York to do contact tracing?
[Gupta:] Yes, no, the testing thing is still, you know, I think the primary issue and I think what's a little confusing about this is that I think clearly there's all this extra now testing capacity. You know, you talk to Quest and people at these big companies and they say, "Hey, we're doing all right. We don't have a backlog anymore. We're basically caught up." And yet the number of tests that are actually being performed has gone down. Now some of that could be because of the holiday weekend. But how could it be so many people still need to get tested and fewer tests are actually being performed? Where's the gap here? What's the problem? Part of it is I think, you know, it's still unclear that people who don't have symptoms should be getting tested. Right now there's places that say unless you have symptoms you can't get a test. That's not surveillance at that point, we need to be doing surveillance. The other thing is that even though the numbers have gone up, Anderson, I think the question that people ask themselves that I hear all the time is, "Look, if today I wanted to get a test, do I know where to go? Do I know how to get it, and could I get the results back today?" Could every person in the country say that? It doesn't mean that everybody needs to get tested, to be clear. But right now even though you have increased numbers, so to speak, there's not an increased practical availability of the test to the people who really should be getting tested. We probably need to be doing, you know, 750 to a million tests as day for a period of time to really get that surveillance. We're not doing that. I think we've done 3.3 million so far now.
[Cooper:] When you talk about surveillance why is that important?
[Gupta:] Surveillance is really important to get an idea of how widespread this is in the United States. If someone were to say, "How bad is Coronavirus in the United States?" we really have no idea how to answer that question. We have no context for that question still because we've only you know, we've had 619,000 people come back positive but we know there's many, many more people out there who either don't have symptoms or have minimal symptoms who probably have had the coronavirus or have it now and could still be spreading it. The other issue is, Anderson, this issue of asymptomatic spread. People who don't have symptoms or are about to develop symptoms, don't know it yet, they can still spread it. That's another reason you have to do this more widespread testing.
[Cooper:] Yes. Sanjay, appreciate it as always. Thank you very much. Sanjay, do you ever sleep?
[Gupta:] A little bit. Not as much as I should. I'm not practicing what I preach right now-
[Cooper:] Well, we appreciate it.
[Gupta:] -for sure.
[Cooper:] We appreciate it, thank you. More now on how the availability of testing might change the course of the outbreak as well as loosening distancing restrictions or, in California's case, maintaining significant limits on large gatherings in the months ahead. That's one of the projections in a new Harvard School of Public Health study. It's certainly the one getting the most headlines. Joining us is Marc Lipsitch, who heads the team behind a new study containing the headline-making projection that any emergence into some kind of normalcy may only be temporary and obviously Sanjay staying with us. Marc, can you explain in layman's terms how your research, which says things might not return to normal until 2022, squares with, you know, sort of the messages we're getting from elsewhere about, you know, things getting better sooner rather than later and getting back to work?
[Marc Lipsitch, Director, Harvard University Center For Communicable Disease Dynamics:] Yes, thank you, Anderson, and thanks for all you guys are doing to spread understanding on this complicated topic. I think the a lot of the confusion stems from the fact that we may be hitting something like a peak and we may be near a point where the number of cases might start to go down. As Sanjay Gupta said, we'll have to see but that is a possibility. That doesn't mean it's a permanent thing. What social distancing does is it slows the spread of the virus so that we can protect our health care system and that's very important. But when we let up on social distancing and when we begin to go back to normal, the likelihood is that the virus will begin spreading again. We our best estimates are that a minority of people in this country have been infected and that means that there are plenty of susceptible people around. When you have virus plus susceptible people you get epidemics.
[Cooper:] Sanjay, I know you have some questions.
[Gupta:] Yes, you know, I'm curious and, Professor, thank you. You're the guy I think we all certainly turn to and listen to on this stuff. You know, there's all these antibody testing sort of capabilities that are ramping up and the idea that people may have some immunity to this. Obviously we don't know how strong or how long that immunity might be. But if a lot of people out there do have antibodies, how much would that affect even short of a vaccine, how much would that affect your model of possibly needing intermittent distancing until 2022?
[Lipsitch:] Well, thanks. That's an important question. So if the number is still a small minority then the predictions are sound, but it is correct that we don't know whether there are actually possibly quite a number more. I think it would be surprising if more than half the population it would be very surprising if more than half the population, even in a hot spot like New York, had been infected. But if it's 30 or 40 percent, if we find that, and unlikely but possible, then that means we're much closer to the point where the majority of the population or enough of the population is immune to really slow spread even in the absence of social distancing or intense social distancing. So it's an interplay between how much we slow things down by immunity and how much we slow things down by our interventions.
[Cooper:] Marc, do you-
[Lipsitch:] So we need that data.
[Cooper:] Do you have a sense, Marc, at all and, I mean, it's not really your purview, but just have you imagined, you know, a year from now assuming there's not a vaccine yet? Say that a vaccine is 18 months away or more do you have a sense of what our life looks like on a daily basis, in terms of
[Lipsitch:] Yes.
[Cooper:] I assume we're wearing masks outside, just like it was the governor was talking about in New York today, wearing masks when we're around other people. Do you ever I mean, have you tried to visualize that at all?
[Lipsitch:] Yeah, a little. And I and I think I think masks are going to be with us for a while. If you go to many parts of Asia, if you went in the the 2000s, the experience of SARS left a mark there for many years after SARS was gone, and people were wearing masks. There are I I think that social distancing of the sort of physically stay at some removed from people, may last for a while. And I think what's most likely to happen because, to be clear, we were not endorsing in our study, the idea that social distancing for another couple of years is a pleasant idea or even a good idea. We were trying to understand the consequences of it. So, I think people are going to get tired of it in various ways, and and politicians are going to get tired of it, and the economy is going to need some relief. And so, different places, my guess is, will try different strategies for emerging, maybe with staggered working and staggered schools, maybe with with trying to test people for antibodies and see whether we can let people who are positive back into work and school, different strategies. And hopefully that will be done in such a way that we can learn what works and what doesn't.
[Cooper:] Yes.
[Lipsitch:] I think large gatherings are going to be among the last to come back, because I think those are potentially the most concerning.
[Cooper:] Yes, and and Go ahead, Sanjay.
[Gupta:] Well, you know, one thing, Professor, you know, we we are obviously all learning as we as we go along here. I think that a couple things that people remember early on was that this was pretty contagious, you know, maybe one person could spread it to two or three people, and that
[Lipsitch:] Yes.
[Gupta:] the that it was, you know, fairly deadly. Maybe, you know, if flu was.1 percent, this was maybe, you know, ten times that. Now that we're three and a half months into that, when you when you look at this, does it still sort of follow that same pattern of of contagiousness and and and the fatality rates?
[Lipsitch:] Yes, I think those numbers are are have settled down for for contagiousness. And, of course, as we put in interventions and as immunity builds up, that contagiousness goes down. In terms of fatality, again, we're really flying blind until we have good serologic tests to test for antibodies
[Gupta:] Yes.
[Lipsitch:] and a history of exposure to the virus. But I I think reasonable educated guesses at this point are that if you're symptomatic, you have a 1 percent or a little more than a 1 percent risk of dying, with a big age effect, and that probably half of people, or maybe a third of people, something like that, are symptomatic, so that the the risk per infection is probably around a half-percent
[Cooper:] Yes.
[Lipsitch:] which is still much higher than seasonal flu.
[Gupta:] Interesting.
[Cooper:] Yes, Marc Marc Lipsitch, I appreciate all your work and and your expertise and really appreciate you being with us. Thank you.
[Lipsitch:] Thank you.
[Cooper:] And, Sanjay, thanks very much. You'll see Sanjay tomorrow night at CNN Global Town Hall, Coronavirus Facts and Fears. Our special guest will include Democratic presidential candidate, Joe Biden, who will take your questions. Also joining us, Facebook founder and CEO, Mark Zuckerberg, and his wife Dr. Priscilla Chan, on how Facebook and the Chan Zuckerberg Initiative are working to try to combat the coronavirus. Two hours of guests, live reports, answers to your questions, that's tomorrow night, starting at 8.00 p.m. Eastern. I think this is our sixth global town hall. A lot more ahead, including a frontline physician in this fight. He'll we'll talk about what the World Health Organization does and the risk that he sees to all of us in taking funding away. Later, California U.S. senator and potential presidential running mate, Kamala Harris, on what her state may look like as it emerges into a very different kind of normal.