[Jake Tapper, Cnn Anchor:] Famous chef James Beard once asked, where would we be without salt? Well, it turns out, for some of us, alive. I'm Jake Tapper and this is THE LEAD. The national lead, breaking this hour, experts now say we're hooking our kids on sodium before they can talk. The author of the hot new book "Salt, Sugar, Fat" will try to convince us to drop the Doritos. The politics lead. The brain surgeon whose next lifesaving operation may be on the Republican Party. New conservative political superstar Dr. Ben Carson will join us. And the pop culture lead. Jimmy Fallon is reportedly on the move as the late-night wars heat up. We sit down with ABC's commanding general on the front lines, Jimmy Kimmel.
[Tapper:] Do you it's a direct it has to be a direct response to you coming and...
[Jimmy Kimmel, Host, "jimmy Kimmel Live":] God, I hope so. I really hope...
[Tapper:] The high-stakes, big-bucks battle for late night gets a lot more interesting. Our national lead breaking right now. The American Heart Association presenting a slew of new studies this hour revealing that many of us are every day ingesting an overdose of sodium. Salt is practically a food group here unto itself here in America, but how does this taste? A full three-quarters of the world population eats twice the recommended daily allowance of salt. The food in Kazakstan must be really bland, because they eat three times the daily allowance, the highest in the world. But don't feel superior, Americans. Here in the States, eating too much salt played a role in 2.3 million deaths from heart attack, strokes and other diseases in 2010 alone. We're passing these bad habits on to our kids. In a different study also being released this hour, researchers found that three-quarters of prepackaged meals and snacks for toddlers had way too much salt. There is a great new book sitting at number two on "The New York Times" nonfiction bestseller list. It's called "Salt, Sugar, Fat: How the Food Giants Hooked Us." And the Pulitzer Prize-winning author Michael Moss joins us now. Michael, thanks for joining us. One of the things in this study says that three of four prepackaged meals for toddlers have too much sodium. What does this do to kids as they get older?
[Michael Moss, "salt, Sugar, Fat: How The Food Giants Hooked Us":] One of the fascinating things about salt is we're not born liking salt. We develop a liking for it at about six months of age. Other recent research has shown that the processed food industry is usually influential in shaping our liking for salt. Kids that are exposed more to processed foods, including the foods you just talked about, are more apt to be licking the saltshaker by the time they're in preschool.
[Tapper:] Now, I know that potato chips, Doritos, pretzels, they're bad. But what is something that I eat commonly that is salt-filled that I don't even know?
[Moss:] It is sort of shocking how many foods in the supermarket are so salty. Canned soup is just amazing. But the single largest contributor of salt to the diet is actually bread, not because it is so salty, but because we eat so much of it. It's an example of how salt is so essential to the industry. They're hooked on salt more than we are because salt acts as a preservative. It covers up off-notes and bad flavors in highly processed foods. And it is so cheap that when they use it they can avoid adding more costly ingredients like fresh herbs and spices.
[Tapper:] What's interesting is you talking when you were researching your book, you were talking to executives of a food company and they wanted to show you what foods tasted like without all of this salt. Tell us about that.
[Moss:] They have known for years they need to cut back down on salt. So I went to them and said, look, what is the problem? Why can't you just take out all the salt? And Kellogg made for me some of their biggest icons without any salt in them special for me so I could taste. We sat down. I tell you, it was the most god-awful experience you ever imagined. I can normally eat cheese. It's all day long. And without the salt, we couldn't even swallow cheese-its because the salt adds texture and solubility. The frozen waffles when into the toaster and they came out looking and tasting like straw. And I tell you the clincher was the Corn Flakes without salt. I looked at the spokeswoman for the company and she got this expression of horror on her face and said, metal. I taste metal. And the chief scientist was there going, oh, yes, well, that's one of the functions of salt. It helps balance out these flavors that get in from the minerals and vitamins and other things we add. So salt acts as a masking agent as well, besides being what the industry calls a flavor burst, something that really adds allure to processed foods.
[Tapper:] I suppose one of the thing that we could do in our own lives is put away the saltshaker. Restaurants like Boston Market have taken saltshakers off the table. Does that help? Does that do anything?
[Moss:] The saltshaker contributes only about 6 percent or 7 percent of the salt in our diet. The majority is coming from processed foods and the typical mainline restaurants that rely so heavily on salt. That's where the problem is and that's where the accountability has to come in for things to be changing meaningfully.
[Tapper:] Michael Moss, thank you so much for joining us. We wish you continued success with your great book.
[Moss:] Thank you so much.
[Tapper:] Also leading nationally, a possible change in who is allowed to deliver death from thousands of miles away. I'm referring, of course, to drones. U.S. officials tell CNN the White House is thinking about moving the drone program away from the CIA and into the hands of the Pentagon. That could lead to more transparency in the controversial program, which has been shrouded in shadows at Langley. For years, unmanned killing machines in the sky have been the weapon of choice for the Central Intelligence Agency as a method of combating terrorism. The drone kill count is formally classified, but the New America Foundation, which has tracked drone strikes since they began, estimates nearly 4,000 people have been killed. Among that number are the deaths of high-profile targets such as American-born cleric Anwar al-Awlaki of al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, but also in that number, several hundred innocent civilians in Pakistan and Yemen. International rights groups say there is no recourse for the victims' families since the U.S. does not acknowledge CIA drone attacks even occur. The White House has argued drones are effective in protecting the U.S. and its interests. Defenders argue they are preferable to sending troops into yet more foreign countries. But human rights groups argue that there are serious constitutional questions about the program, specifically the extrajudicial targeted killing of enemy combatants and, most notably, American citizens such as Awlaki or his apparently innocent 16-year-old son.
[John Brennan, Cia Director:] We only take such actions as a last resort to save lives.
[Tapper:] John Brennan was battered in his nomination hearings to head the CIA by both Republicans and Democrats over the use of drones. Brennan expressed a desire to start moving out of the killing business and resume collecting and analyzing intelligence.
[Brennan:] The CIA should not be doing traditional military activities and operations.
[Tapper:] The program has also divided Republicans. Hawks such as Senator John McCain of Arizona are all for it, but the drone strikes kept more libertarian Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky talking all night on the Senate floor earlier this month railing against possible targeted killings on U.S. soil. No final decision has been made on whether the military will take over the drone program. If the change is made, we're told it would happen gradually. The latest developments in the U.S. drone policy brings us to a larger question, are we safer here at home because of the strikes overseas and is it right? Joining me now to discuss this, Jeremy Scahill, national security correspondent for "The Nation," and here in Washington, Christine Fair, senior fellow at Combating Terrorism Center at West Point and assistant professor at Georgetown University. Jeremy, I want to start with you. With the military taking over drone strikes assuming this does go through, would that alleviate any of your concerns when it comes to transparency or accountability?
[Jeremy Scahill, "the Nation":] Well, first of all, Jake, I think we're having the wrong discussion here. The reality is that the military and the CIA have both been directing drone strikes for many years now. The military's Joint Special Operations Command has done drone strikes inside of Yemen, inside of Pakistan, so in a way this sort of misses the bigger point. But to directly answer your question, no, it doesn't because the Obama administration has relied on a policy known as signature strikes where people are targeted in certain regions of Pakistan or Yemen based on where they live and if they're military-age males. It's sort of a form of pre-crime. So what we have seen and these are really escalating is that people are being killed by the U.S. government, whether it's CIA or JSOC, and they don't even know their identities. What I have seen in my reporting on the ground in Somalia, Yemen, and elsewhere is that we will have tremendous blowback from this if we don't take a serious step back and look at the impact on the ground of these drone strikes.
[Tapper:] Christine, how about that? You have actually written about whether or not in Pakistan these drone strikes create more terrorists than they kill, as Jeremy has argued.
[Christine Fair, Georgetown University:] Well, our data don't actually say that. What we actually look at is public opinion. And what is interesting, everyone knows Pakistanis tend to dislike the drones in the major cities. What we don't actually know is what Pakistanis think about the drones in the tribal areas. In my own travels in Pakistan, I find that people, the closer they are to the drones, the less willing they are to blanket say that they hate them, in part because they understand the options are the Pakistan military or living under the regime that the terrorists would prefer. But I will say I very much agree with Jeremy. I am not a supporter of the so-called signature strikes. Even if we were to have transparency on what we were trying to do, we really wouldn't know anything about the signature strikes. On this, he and I are in absolute agreement.
[Tapper:] Jeremy, you have called drone strikes murder. If you were responsible for the national security of the United States and you saw Anwar al-Awlaki, you were sure it was him, it is not a signature strike, you're sure it's him, what would you do? What do you think the government of the United States should be doing?
[Scahill:] Well, first of all, there hasn't been any concrete evidence presented against Anwar al-Awlaki other than he said things that are deeply offensive to me and to probably most Americans. I think the United States has made a big mistake in doing away with due process particularly for American citizens, but also for non-U.S. citizens. And I think if you have a man like Anwar al-Awlaki that you believe represents a concrete threat to the United States why not charge him with a crime, demand his extradition, go in and attempt to arrest him? The United States did that recently with one of bin Laden's relatives. We have seen that in the case of Somalis accused of being members of Al Shabab in al Qaeda in East Africa. The idea that the president would authorize what I think is the assassination of a U.S. citizen who had not been charged with a crime really is a disturbing trend. And to kill his 16-year-old son two weeks later and then provide no explanation we have gotten no public explanation from the administration of why they killed 16-year-old Abdulrahman al-Awlaki. To me, it would have been a moment to say we're going to put a moratorium on drone strikes, step back, and look at how it was we killed three U.S. citizens in three weeks, two of whom were not even supposedly on the kill list, one of whom was a 16-year-old citizen who was 6 years old when 911 happened.
[Tapper:] Christine, I will let you have the last word. Does the potential move of putting drone strikes out of the CIA and into the Pentagon entirely, although as Jeremy notes, the Pentagon was already doing some of them, is that a good move?
[Fair:] The only way it'll be a good move is if they're not under the command of Special Operations Command, in other words, that they are completely subject to transparency. Speaking with respect to Pakistan, it could potentially be a good move because right now Pakistan is kind of a free rider. Right? It allows us to do the drone strikes. We're flying them from their territory. We're even building a new drone base in Pakistan, and yet it is able to disassociate itself from the attacks. If we were to go forward with complete transparency, it would mean the ISI would have to come out of the closet. And my views about the drone problem in Pakistan, we don't have the option to arrest people like we do elsewhere. Having this sort of transparency and understanding who is targeted and with what consequences is actually good for Pakistanis. What Pakistanis need to do is own their own struggle against their own terrorism. I think bringing the ISI out into the open and making it accept responsibility for what it is doing is probably a good step in that direction and can only happen if it's taken out of the purview of the CIA and put into the purview of the
[Dod. Tapper:] Jeremy Scahill, Christine Fair, thank you.
[Fair:] Thank you.
[Scahill:] Thank you, Jake.
[Tapper:] Vindicated after more than two decades behind bars for a crime he almost certainly did not commit, David Ranta went just free moments ago after Brooklyn prosecutors recommended throwing out his 1991 conviction for the shooting death of a rabbi during a botched diamond heist. A witness from back then now said he was coached into identifying Ranta in a police lineup. One by one, witnesses are sharing horror stories in the trial of a Philadelphia abortion provider. The evidence in the case is so gruesome some jurors have been seen covering their mouths. Former Dr. Kermit Gosnell is charged with killing seven late-term babies that were born alive and he's also accused of performing a botched abortion that killed a patient. Gosnell has pleaded not guilty and his lawyer insists none of the babies were born alive. Just days after Senate Democrats decided to shelve a new assault weapons ban, Vice President Biden was in New York to meet with Newtown families and with Mayor Michael Bloomberg, a strong voice in favor of more regulation of firearms. Biden said what he is proposing common sense, not a Second Amendment grab.
[Joseph Biden, Vice President Of The United States:] Tell me, tell me how it violates anyone's constitutional right to be limited to a clip that holds 10 rounds, instead of 30 or in Aurora 100?
[Tapper:] Biden also suggested the Newtown shooter might have been killed sooner if he had to spend more time reloading. It was an accident that could have been a few feet away from kicking off an international incident. We're just learning this juicy nuggets from a new book, "Deep State: Inside the Government Secrecy Industry," by Marc Ambinder and D.B. Grady excerpted in "The Atlantic" today. Apparently back in 2006 during the U.N. General Assembly, an American Secret Service agent accidentally discharged a shotgun in the direction of the Iranian leader as he was getting into his motorcade in New York. The close call reportedly "scared the hell out of U.S. officials" who were worried Ahmadinejad might use it against them. But he never mentioned it again. Mysterious. Ahead in our money lead, without tweets, hashtags and my dedicated Twitter followers, what would I do with my day? Maybe accomplish something. It's Twitter's birthday, my tweets. And to celebrate, I sit down with the hacker-turned-CEO behind it all. Plus, our pop lead. Word on the street is that the suits at NBC are showing Jay Leno the exit. What does ABC's Jimmy Kimmel think about the soon-to-be-out-of-work comedian?
[Jimmy Kimmel, Comedian:] I do think he's capable. I've seen him. I mean, listen, you know, the guy is one of the great comedians.
[Tapper:] But you think he's dumbed down his material? Is that is that
[Kimmel:] Yes, I think so. Yes, I mean, I think that's fair to say.
[Commercial Break) Tapper:] In the "Pop Culture Lead", if there's one place where success and job security don't always go hand in hand it is late night television. Take the reported decision to kick Jay Leno to the curb and make Jimmy Fallon the new host of "The Tonight Show" in 2014. That's not because Leno is taking a beating in the ratings. His show is actually number one. But NBC execs seem to be focused on the long game. They want a host who could bring the younger, tweeting, YouTube-loving crowd to the table and the millions of dollars that come with them. And you can thank ABC and Jimmy Kimmel for that. Kimmel's show just made the switch to the 11:30 time slot competing directly with Leno and David letterman's "Late Show". And while the TV host and comedian does his best to rise above the late night drama, don't think for a second Kimmel isn't ready for battle.
[Tapper:] Kimmel, Letterman, Leno, Fallon. Late night ratings roulette is upon us, with more than 10 million viewers at stake and tens of millions of dollars in network advertising on the line.
[Jay Leno, Comedian:] Things once thought to be extinct could be now brought back from the dead. So, there's hope for NBC. It could turn around. It could turn around.
[Tapper:] But as the peacock network apparently makes moves to replace Jay Leno with Jimmy Fallon, ABC's Jimmy Kimmel, fresh from his New Year's move from 11:35 on ABC remains unfazed.
[Kimmel:] Well, obviously, NBC is looking to move on because they did it once already. This would be the second time this has happened. So, I mean, it makes perfect sense and Jimmy Fallon is doing a great job.
[Tapper:] And Jay Leno? Well, let's just say Kimmel's respect for Jay Leno knows bounds. [on camera]: You've had some tough things to say about Jay Leno.
[Kimmel:] Yes, yes. My mother told me to stop.
[Tapper:] Is that right?
[Kimmel:] Yes. You know, it's one of those things. I have diarrhea of the mouth and when I'm asked about it, I tend to go on and on.
[Tapper:] You said he is like a master chef who now works at Burger King. Do you think he is capable of being a brilliant comic and
[Kimmel:] I do think he is capable. I've seen him. I mean, listen, you know, the guy is one of the great comedians.
[Tapper:] But you think he's dumbed down his material? Is that is that
[Kimmel:] Yes, I think so. Yes, I mean, I think that's fair to say. He is a rock, isn't he?
[Tapper:] Yes. He's an immovable force.
[Kimmel:] He is. You've never been funnier, my friend.
[Tapper:] I mean, obviously, you're younger. Obviously you've got a hipper, more modern sensibility.
[Kimmel:] I have to be honest with you. I hate that younger thing.
[Tapper:] Why?
[Kimmel:] Because I imagine myself in hopefully doing this job when I get older and I just think it's like it's unfair. People age. It's just how it works. Have you ever taken a lie detector test before? You have?
[Tapper:] Quicker than he expected Kimmel proved himself competitive with the coveted demographic of younger viewers.
[Kimmel:] Do you ever pick your nose?
[Unidentified Boy:] No. Ah, yes, I did.
[Kimmel:] You did.
[Tapper:] You have a real viral video thing that other competitors, even Jimmy Fallon have not been able to match. Your YouTube channel is huge.
[Kimmel:] It educates you because it's very democratic. People really are like voting for what they think is funny by watching it and passing it around to their friends. I would like the people who are at home watching the Emmys right now to help me pull a big prank on the people who are not watching.
[Tapper:] It's been a big year for Kimmel. In addition to hosting the Emmys and providing comedy for the White House Correspondents Association dinner, he got engaged. [on camera]: So you're marrying one of your writers?
[Kimmel:] I am, yes. She got hired as a writer's assistant and she started writing jokes. After a while it became obvious that we had to hire her as a writer. Her material was so strong. And for me, weirdly, that's like a that just that's really like what attracted me to her, is that she's funny.
[Tapper:] Why is that weird? That's nice.
[Kimmel:] Yes, I guess it's good but it's weird to be you know, to have a work assignment be what attracted you to somebody. But that is kind of, I thought, well, that's
[Tapper:] That's not weird. You're in love with her mind. I mean
[Kimmel:] There you go.
[Tapper:] I mean, she's very beautiful but I mean, that's nice.
[Kimmel:] What a coincidence.
[Tapper:] Closing out his winning year, Kimmel was given a better earlier time slot where he is pitted directly against his idol.
[David Letterman, Comedian:] Good heavens and hello!
[Kimmel:] My favorite host of all time is David Letterman. That's who I choose to watch if I'm choosing to watch somebody. I mean, that, for me, would be my choice. I think I'd choose watching him I know I would, over watching myself. I never watch myself. I often times watch his show.
[Tapper:] So you're in a weird position because you are now competing.
[Kimmel:] You mean this?
[Tapper:] That's just an odd position.
[Kimmel:] Excited to have you. I'm a little bit overwhelmed. The margins between us are so slim, it's not like a prize fight where you go in and are actually knocking somebody out. The truth is three shows can be successful simultaneously and all do perfectly well and everybody wins.
[Tapper:] Years ago, the late night wars got so heated there was a bestselling book and subsequent HBO movie about it. [on camera]: There was an actor playing Letterman and actor playing Leno. So, if they did a sequel, who would play you?
[Kimmel:] Oh, well. I would love to see an African-American have that part. J.B. Smoove I think would be a good choice.
[Tapper:] OK.
[Kimmel:] I'd like to be thin too.
[Tapper:] So, that 8-year-old girl
[Kimmel:] I want to be black and thin. Oh, Quvenzhane Wallis, excellent idea.
[Tapper:] That young.
[Kimmel:] She would be great.
[Tapper:] She is America's sweetheart.
[Kimmel:] She is. And so am
[I. Tapper:] So are you. So, there is a certain type casting.
[Kimmel:] Perfect.
[Tapper:] Adding to his Gen Y appeal, Kimmel's show recently launched its very own music show on YouTube. On to our "Political Lead", Hillary Clinton just might want to watch her back for a guy nobody knew about a month ago. Ben Carson is a soft spoken doctor that's got Rush Limbaugh smiling and he'll join me live, next.