[Rep. Jason Crow:] If you have any lingering questions about direct evidence, any thoughts about anything we just talked about, anything I just relayed, or that we've talked about the last week, there is a way to shed additional light on it. You can subpoena Ambassador Bolton and ask him that question directly.
[John Berman, Cnn Anchor:] That was House impeachment manager, Congressman Jason Crow from Colorado, on the floor of the Senate during the question and answer session yesterday. Another day ahead today. Joining us now is Congressman Jason Crow. Thanks so much for being with us. I have to say, it was such an interesting moment to see that back and forth, to see the questions and answers. Interesting in a way a little bit odd. So, I'm wondering what it was like to you. Did it feel like sometimes batting practice because each side was sort of lobbing up these balls for the managers, for instance, to hit if you wanted to? What was it like?
[Crow:] Well, you know, interesting would be one word for it. Astounding would be another. I mean, there were a couple of things that frankly, I just couldn't imagine I was hearing on the floor. You know, having Mr. Dershowitz say that because every elected official believes that what they're doing is the right thing, that that presumptively makes it the right thing. We saw the president continue to move the goalposts. You know, at first, they're saying at the beginning of the trial there's no quid pro quo. Then they're saying that the quid pro quo isn't impeachable. Then when it becomes abundantly clear to everybody in that room and the American people that what the president did was wrong, and he did it, then they're saying move on because what the president does is just presumptively the right thing. So, they are throwing everything out. They're throwing contradictory arguments at this point. They're saying that the process was unfair, but then they're saying that they're not willing to go through a fair process because it would take too long. So, we're really in unchartered territory here.
[Berman:] We'll bring you brought up the Alan Dershowitz argument. That is something we have talked about all morning long. What are the implications if that argument
[Crow:] Well, the imp
[Berman:] What are the implications if that argument and just to rephrase it, Alan Dershowitz is basically saying, every president every presidential candidate thinks that he or she their election will make the country better. So, therefore, anything that he or she does in the process of getting elected is fair game. You can do anything. Anything you do is not impeachable. What's the implication if that becomes part of precedent?
[Crow:] Well, the implication is what the president and his team have been implying all along. And that is that the president is above the law. You know, since day one of this process, they've been saying that a sitting president can't be indicted, that a sitting president can't be investigated, that the House has no power to investigate or subpoena or question witnesses or members of the executive branch. And now, they're saying that there is no impeachment power. So, that would truly, if you follow all of that logic, it would make the president above the law. I'm very confident that's not what our Framers intended and what has made our system so wonderful the last 240-plus years. But that's what they want you to believe. And it's a very dangerous thing.
[Berman:] Were there any questions or what were the questions that you that came from Republicans that you thought were insightful?
[Crow:] Well, there were some there were some insightful questions about the standard of proof here. You know, I know some of the folks who, you know, have said they're on the fence were wondering, what is the standard? You know, is this a criminal trial? Is this beyond a reasonable doubt? Is this preponderance of the evidence? I thought it was an insightful question and it, you know, it's something that people should be thinking about, you know, because the Constitution doesn't lay out a clear standard. They put that into the hands of the Senate to say, you know, what abuse of power is and to apply that using best judgment. So that was an insightful question. I was continued I continue to be really shocked, though, however, by the sowing of these propaganda theories. You know, these widely debunked Russian propaganda conspiracy theories about Burisma and Ukrainian involvement in the election. You know, one thing we've learned the last few years is that the words of our leaders matter. And when people say these things and they say them on a broad scale, on a big stage with people listening, it matters, and it's irresponsible. So, I think we need to stop talking about these things that have been widely debunked by our own intelligence and law enforcement agencies.
[Berman:] There's something remarkable that CNN has reported was going on behind the scenes and that is that Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky was trying to get the name of the whistle-blower read into the record. And, apparently, the Chief Justice of the United States John Roberts kept that from happening. Senator Rand Paul said overnight he's going to try again today. So, I want your reaction to that and what you will do as House managers if it does happen.
[Crow:] Well, I'm glad that the chief justice stopped that because it's dangerous. You know, we have federal law that protects whistle- blowers. And the reason we have law that protects whistle-blowers is because we want to be able to have whistle-blowers. It's really important element of our system that if something is going wrong in government, whether it's local government, state government, federal government, that people have the safety and security to come forward and blow the whistle. So, people can find out if something wrong happened. And a lot of things have been corrected over the history of our country because of courageous men and women have done that have done just that. So they clearly want the whistle-blower outed or some folks do because they want to intimidate the whistle-blower. They want to make sure that this person, you know, doesn't doesn't do anything in the future. And they want to prevent other people from doing it, too. You know, intimidation and threats is part of the pattern and practice of this administration and it's yet another reason why it continues to be very dangerous.
[Berman:] One of the arguments that some Republicans have made against calling new witnesses, including John Bolton is that they say, OK, even if John Bolton does say that the president indicated that aid to Ukraine was tied to investigating the Bidens, we'll accept that he said that. We still don't think the president should be removed from office. So, why do we need to extend the trial even more to make the vote when we already know what our vote is going to be? How do you explain that argument?
[Crow:] Well, there are yes, certainly, there are some that have been saying that. But there are others that haven't, that continue to contest the fact. So, if you continue to contest the fact, that puts it in issue and you need the evidence to confirm whether or not it's true. So, that's an important point. The second point that the American people deserve to have information. This is a trial that the American people are watching very closely. They deserve to have the complete picture of what happened. They continue to say over and over again, they being the president and his lawyers, that they had no direct evidence, that nobody has testified directly to what the president has said. And then you have John Bolton saying this. So, let's get the full picture out there and let's have actually a fair trial.
[Berman:] Now, you're concentrating on your job as a House manager prosecuting a case right now, but there's politics and there will be politics going forward. Of the House managers, I think you're in the district that is the closest in terms of Republicans and Democrats. And then Colorado is a swing state in terms of the Senate for sure. And Cory Gardner, the senator from Colorado, came out overnight and said he is a no vote on witnesses. He has heard enough. He knows that he doesn't want to hear witnesses. How do you think that will affect Cory Gardner's re-election campaign in Colorado?
[Crow:] I don't think it's appropriate for me to weigh in on any individual senatorjuror at this point. You know, I'm a prosecutor in this case. All senators are sitting as jurors right now. I would hope that, you know, Mr. Gardner, like all senators, would actually take their oath to be an impartial juror seriously to listen to all the facts and the evidence. I continue to say that to have a fair trial requires witnesses and documents. Any American who goes into a courtroom and raises their right hand and becomes a juror knows that. I mean, right now, tens of thousands of Americans are filing into courtrooms today to fulfill their constitutional duty to be a juror. They're going to take their oath and then they're going to hear witnesses and they're going to review documents. So, why should the president and what happens here in Washington be any different? Of course, the answer is that it shouldn't and every American knows that.
[Berman:] Congressman Jason Crow from Colorado, thanks for being with us this morning.
[Crow:] Thank you.
[Berman:] Alisyn?
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