[Jonee Fonseca, Israel`s Mother:] Hi. Say hello.
[Unidentified Female:] 2-year-old Israel Stinson loves to talk and laugh. About a month ago, Israel was rushed to the hospital during an asthma attack. He was transferred from UC Davis to Kaiser Permanente in Roseville where he was declared brain dead. His parents are fighting to keep him alive.
[Fonseca:] Israel, you`ve got to stop fooling everybody. How long is it going to take, huh?
[Unidentified Female:] This is the moment they say they knew he wasn`t brain dead. What appears to be a slight flinch to his mom`s tickles. In the determination of brain deaths, it`s not a simple yes or no. But Israel`s parents are holding on to hope waiting to hear this little voice once again.
[Pinsky:] Oh, my god, that is so bad. But in fact physicians have declared 2-year-old Israel Stinson brain dead. The toddler`s parents insist he`s alive. They posted this home video on YouTube, claiming it proves their point.
[Fonseca:] Israel, baby, mommy`s here. I`m going to tickle you one more time. Do it one more time. Do it one more time. There you go. There you go. Israel. His blood pressure is going up. Oh, you can hear mommy and you can feel mommy, huh? Israel, you`ve got to stop fooling everybody. How long is it going to take, huh? I know you`re going to come out of this, baby.
[Pinsky:] Wow. Back with Anahita and Leo, joining us vin Skype, Gina Louden, Host America Trends, on U2 America, she is a prolife advocate. Anahita, you and I have been here before you and I. Whether it`s Jahi. Was Jahi`s last name?
[Sedaghatfar:] Jahi Mcmath.
[Pinsky:] Jahi Mcmath or bobby Kristina Brown. Listen, I went over and over this. When somebody`s brain is gone, it is gone. Why is it different than if I pull the heart and lung out and just had it as a physiological prep. Why do people not understand this is a prep just like that.
[Sedaghatfar:] For two reasons, I think people want to believe in miracles and then you look at videos like that where the child or individual react to touch, people think it`s the brain, but it`s not a brain, it`s a reflex.
[Pinsky:] It`s the autonomic nervous system, it`s the body that is disconnected from a brain that is dead. A pediatric specialist that works at the California hospital, where Israel is being treated, talked to a local CNN affiliate. Here it is.
[Fonseca:] It can look like twitches, it can look like muscle contractions, but unfortunately those are just reflexes. They`re not coming from the brain because in brain death there`s a cease of function. Unfortunately, it`s irreversible. It`s very sad.
[Pinsky:] It`s very sad. Leo, it`s irreversible. What bothers me is, if I were working on that case I would see my job as getting those parents to the place of acceptance. Them hanging on to something that will never happen, as it never happened in the history of mammalian biology will never happen. Has never happened in the history of humanity, to allow them to sit and suffer with that for god knows how long, it would be I couldn`t stand it.
[Terrell:] Well, look Dr. Drew, I hate to disagree with you but you`re wrong. Not medically, but legally. Because that`s why this family is in Federal Court. There are some states, and as a lawyer I`m looking at this, there are some states that say as long as there`s a heartbeat, that child is alive.
[Pinsky:] So if I took the heart out and a lung out and put it in a jar, then we`re fine? We`re fine then?
[Terrell:] I`m not going to challenge you medically, but I`m saying legally, that`s why that baby is still in the capacity she`s in right now because a court has said no. As long as she has a heartbeat, they can pursue this. and that`s in New Jersey and that`s the law.
[Pinsky:] Gina Loudon can you tell me what`s your opinion on this. What is a lie from what is not a lie? I understand that there`s legal protection of life, I`m all for that, but this is a physiology prep.
[Gina Loudon, Pro-life Advocate:] Well, brain death, as I understand it, is not a clinical diagnosis but rather a medical opinion. I understand they have had three of those and this is a tremendously complicated situation. But Dr. Drew, this is a little bit personal for me. I actually adopted a little boy who had down syndrome, he was on a feeding tube, he had failure to thrive. And they told me when I adopted him I was signing a death certificate just so he would have parents on his death certificate.
[Pinsky:] Gina, I have to interrupt you. That is fantastically different than somebody coming and saying that is a dead person. That is somebody who is going to die, in their opinion, as opposed to somebody who is dead. There`s an infinity difference between these two states. Infinity.
[Loudon:] But the bottom line, Dr. Drew, and there are states that agree, and as your lawyer pointed out, the bottom line is it should be up to the parents. It is not up to the state to decide
[Pinsky:] You know what, I`m sympathetic to that. I`m sympathetic to that. I like the way Gina framed this. It`s about parenting rights, right?
[Terrell:] It`s parenting rights and the law. You cannot your medical experience and expertise cannot trump the law. The law is very clear.
[Pinsky:] But here`s my problem. OK. You kind of missed it last time I stated it. The problem is getting these parents who were entitled to their parenting privileges I believe in protecting those but the job of the professionals should be to get them to the point of acceptance of managing reality on reality`s terms. Otherwise what are we doing, guys? Are we going to spend all of the medical resources we have on brain preps? Is that what we`re going to do.
[Terrell:] You give the assumption that there`s universal consensus on your opinion throughout this country. If so, why does New Jersey allow this to happen.
[Pinsky:] I`m not saying they`ll be a universal opinion on what this is, I mean brain-dead.
[Sedaghatfar:] Three doctors examined this child. They went to three different courts in California, state courts. All the courts agreed that the doctors used the right procedures, they followed the proper law and they all determined that this poor child is brain dead. I think that`s the bottom line. Now, it will be interesting to see what this Federal Court does, because I think it will be ground breaking if this court actually mandates this hospital and these doctors to perform these surgeries, to give him a feeding tubes, to give him medications. I think that will be groundbreaking.
[Pinsky:] It`s so that he can be transferred.
[Terrell:] So he can be transferred to New Jersey.
[Pinsky:] I bet they allow it
[Terrell:] Why wouldn`t you allow it? It`s the law. I`m confused. The law says in New Jersey, let`s be clear. The law says as long as there`s a heartbeat, the child is alive.
[Sedaghatfar:] They`re trying to get the court to tell these California doctors to perform the surgeries, give the medications so that the child can be transported. That`s the issue.
[Terrell:] what`s wrong with that? What`s the problem with that? I hope it`s not about money. Let`s face it, it sounds like money. It smells like it`s about money.
[Pinsky:] I love what Leo is talking about, the universal truth. Listen, we are asked as physicians to make decision-making based on available resources every day. That`s part of our responsibility is to make sure that we aren`t wasting resources. How is this not wasting resources? But I understand. But I understand, I want to protect the patient parent privilege. My goal would be to get the parents to deal with reality. Every medical decision has a cost whatever the hell. I`m behaving like people who respond to Donald Trump now. See how that works. He`d be a good negotiator. But the point is forget it, let me go to break.
[Sedaghatfar:] Dr. Drew
[Pinsky:] You got me.
[Simpkins:] I`ve never seen that.
[Pinsky:] We will hear from Israel`s parents. They`re locked in a battle in the courts over the fate of their son. And still to come, disturbing video of a mother allegedly attacked by police with pepper spray. Who`s right, who`s in the wrong. We`ll have more after this.