[Fredricka Whitfield, Cnn:] Hello, everyone. Thank you so much for joining me this Sunday. I'm Fredricka Whitfield. The U.S. government now shut down for 16 days. So far what we have seen, plenty of rhetoric, political bluster and finger-pointing. What we haven't seen? Any signs of real progress. Now President Trump is warning he will consider declaring a national emergency to build the border wall based on what happens over the next few days. He is meeting with administration officials in Camp David right now. And vice president Mike Pence is having another meeting with Capitol Hill staffers after talks yesterday for about two-and-a-half hours went nowhere. Sources tell CNN today the administration is laying out the justifications for the $5.7 billion wall. But the President himself says no progress is expected at that meeting. And Trump has made it clear he will not back down on his demands for wall funding.
[Donald Trump, President Of The United States:] This is a very important battle to win from the standpoint of safety, number one, defining our country and who we are, also from the standpoint of dollars. This wall will pay for itself many times during the course of a year. The money we are talking about is very small compared to the return. Do you think I like doing this? I don't like doing this. But we have no choice, we have to have it.
[Whitfield:] Let's check in with CNN correspondent Boris Sanchez. So what more can you tell us about these negotiations and even talks at Camp David? What's happening?
[Boris Sanchez, Cnn White House Correspondent:] Hey, there, Fred. Yes. A source indicating that right now Republicans are presenting to Democrats that official justification that you mentioned, basically an explanation of how they plan to spend the $5.7 billion that President Trump has requested for his border wall. Acting chief of staff Mick Mulvaney suggested that requesting that justification was actually a delay tactic on the part of Democrats. He believes they are attempting to stall these talks. Further, he is frustrated by what he is seeing in these conversations as he told Jake Tapper. The President is also frustrated. Late yesterday, a White House source confirming to CNN that President Trump was inclined to call on a national emergency to be able to secure funds for his long promised border wall. The President confirmed that report this morning, suggesting it was a serious option. Listen to this.
[Trump:] I may declare a national emergency dependent on what's going to happen over the next few days. We have a meeting. Vice president Pence and a group will be going to a certain location that you know where that is, and they will be having another meeting. I don't expect to have anything happen at that meeting. But I think we will have, nor does the vice President, but I think we are going to have some very serious talks come Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday.
[Sanchez:] Now, if the President were to declare a national emergency to get his border wall funded, it is almost certain that he would face a number of lawsuits to try to prevent that from happening. Essentially, what this boils down to according to a number of sources is that both sides don't see eye to eye. They disagree on several basic facts. According to a White House source, Democrats simply don't trust some of the statistics being presented by the department of homeland security, Kirstjen Nielsen. An aide to speaker of the house Nancy Pelosi told CNN that secretary Nielsen simply is not credible on these issues. A spokesperson for DHS responded saying these statistics simply speak for themselves. President Trump is expected to return from Camp David shortly. He is there for a pow-wow essentially outlining the administration's 2019 priorities. We will let you know if he says much when he returns to the White House, Fred.
[Whitfield:] All right. Boris, thank you so much. All right. During that 20-minute-long back and forth with reporters on the way back to Camp David, earlier today, President Trump also said this.
[Trump:] I can say this. Everybody is playing games, but I can say this. I think that the Democrats want to make a deal, I really do. I feel that.
[Unidentified Female:] What is the deal? Will you come down?
[Trump:] We will call it something different.
[Whitfield:] So while everyone is quote "playing games," as the President puts it, it is important to remember that you are still paying for government services that are shut down. For example, the agency that handles small business loans is not processing loan applications right now. Residents in Washington, D.C. who are planning to get married may have to wait a little longer. The D.C. court that handles marriage licenses is closed. And perhaps you are in the middle of buying a house. Well, depending on your type of loan, your closing date could be delayed. And of course, it is tax season, so many people are looking forward to those IRS refund checks this time of year. Well, most of the workers at the IRS are off the job. CNN spoke to one of those workers who says his furlough could easily become your problem.
[Terry Scott, Furloughed Irs Employee:] It is going to take the public, those people who are going to be impacted beyond the federal employees to stand up and say enough is enough. Because what we do at the IRS, I mean, anyone that's due a refund, they won't get that refund until we get back to work.
[Whitfield:] So despite those impacts, many Republicans are firmly standing behind the President. Senator Lindsey Graham is fiercely defending the President's call for a border wall. This morning on CBS, he was asked, why not just open the government and then continue negotiations on the border wall? Well, here is how he responded.
[Sen. Lindsey Graham , South Carolina:] I do want to open up the government, but the goal is not to open up the government, the goal is to fix a broken immigration system, to bring reality to this table that ICE is not the problem, it is the solution. The goal is to repair a damaged broken immigration system.
[Whitfield:] All right. Joining me right now to discuss all of this, political reporter for Bloomberg Sahil Kapur and historian and professor at Princeton University, Julian Zelizer. He is also the coauthor of a new book, "the Fault Lines, a history of the U.S. since 1974." Congratulations, Julian on a new book. And good to see both of you. Happy New Year.
[Julian Zelizer, Cnn Political Analyst:] Happy New Year.
[Sahil Kapur, Political Reporter, Bloomberg:] Happy New Year.
[Whitfield:] All right. So Sahil, let me begin with you. So the goal, at least according to Lindsey Graham, is not to open the government, but instead to fund the wall. Wasn't all of this about spending to keep a government going in the first place?
[Kapur:] Right. That is generally what these government funding debates tend to be about. But, you know, what we are seeing here is that these 800,000 federal workers have become pawns in an unrelated policy fight for Congress. Immigration is not the issue here when you are talking about government funding. It's simply to keep the lights on, to keep government functioning. And what's happening now is that about half of these 800,000 federal workers are going to continue to have to work, not getting paid for the duration of the shutdown. But your previous guest was right. It's going to take the rest of the American public feeling the negative impacts of the shutdown before, I think, the pressure mounts on the White House to, I think, back down from the wall demand. Because Democrats view this as a binary. They don't view the steel or concrete wall as necessary, and they are adamantly opposed to it. So I don't see a scenario where the Democrats give the President this wall.
[Whitfield:] And before that, Julian, you know, the President already said that, you know, he would consider now declaring a national emergency to fund the border wall and that within the next few days. Listen to what Democratic Congressman Adam Schiff said about all of this.
[Rep. Adam Schiff , California:] I may give that really threatening talk from the President that he doesn't have the power to execute. Look, if Harry Truman couldn't nationalize the steel industry during wartime, this President doesn't have the power to declare an emergency and build a multi-billion-dollar wall on the border. So that's a nonstarter.
[Whitfield:] So Julian, is it a nonstarter, because the President sounded pretty defensive it may exercise this in the next couple days of thinking.
[Zelizer:] Yes. I mean, I think Schiff is being optimistic, overly optimistic. Presidents have invoked emergency power very often since Truman, since the 1970s. We have seen it used repeatedly, including after 911. So I could imagine him using this. I could imagine this is the President's way out, open the government but then move the fight to the emergency power fight. But it will be challenged. It will be challenged in the court. It will be challenged by house Democrats. And I think he's going to have a lot of problems making a convincing case that we are in the middle of anything other than a manufactured emergency.
[Whitfield:] OK. And acting White House chief of staff Mick Mulvaney also took to the airwaves today, and on CNN he talked about the President and this shutdown. Listen.
[Mick Mulvaney, Acting Chief Of Staff:] The President really does believe that you could solve this in 10 minutes. We are asking for $5.6 billion. They are offering us zero. It sounds like we are simply arguing about one variable. Just how much are we going to spend on that barrier, on the southern border, on the steel slat fence, whatever you want to call it? This should be relatively simple.
[Whitfield:] So Sahil, if it's so simple, then what is this all about?
[Kapur:] well, it's simple, the President gets what he wants. But Democrats aren't willing to give him what he wants. So I mean, we are stuck, you know. I think there is no way around that impasse unless Democrats are willing to give the President $5 billion for the wall or the President is willing to back down. But this issue is so central to his political identity. It's the reason for his rise in the Republican Party, immigration and migration in general. It is his answer to voters for their problems on everything relating ranging from jobs, to crime, to the opioid epidemic. Now, it may not be the right answer, but it is his answer. And the wall to him and his supporters are the potent symbol for, you know, him taking action to deal with that problem. So this seems to be the one issue that he, you know, that he is not willing to back down from.
[Whitfield:] Yes, Sahil, except that campaign promise was really about Mexico paying for the wall.
[Kapur:] That's right.
[Whitfield:] So where is that end of the promise? And is the President behaving as though he thinks people have forgotten about that jargon?
[Kapur:] He has tried a number of different arguments here. He said he started by saying Mexico will pay for the wall, then he is saying the wall will pay for itself. Lately, he has been saying that savings from this new updated NAFTA deal, the USMCA will pay for the wall. So, you know, he has tried to approach that a number of different ways. But it's very clear that Mexico is not paying for the wall. There is no provision in the law that prohibits Mexico from funding this wall. So that with the case, he could easily build it.
[Whitfield:] So Julian, the President and Republicans are really seem to be digging in their hills. There was a meeting with the vice president yesterday. There might be another one. The President went to Camp David today, presumably to talk about all of this. But where is the compromise? Where are the signs that anyone, either side, is willing to give in on something so as to at least get government up and running again?
[Zelizer:] It's very hard to see where the compromise might be other than some kind of from the Democrats increased funding for border security, not for the wall, but not nearly anything that he wants. The Democrats are not going to concede. They have already agreed to a budget that doesn't really include much of what they want. And most Republicans had agreed to that budget. So the real question is, when do congressional Republicans feel enough pressure to pass a budget whereby they can override the President? That's the way this whole logjam can be braked. It's really about the Republicans on Capitol Hill, not even Republicans in the White House.
[Whitfield:] And Sahil, that's what former chief of staff Rahm Emanuel, you know, said this morning on another program saying it really is going to take Republicans perhaps crumbling, acquiescing, once this feeling, you know, the impact is made beyond the federal workers. Is he right?
[Kapur:] I think that is very true. I think the way, you know, one of the ways that this impasse finally break so that congressional Republicans are not willing to go along with this anymore, and we are seeing some cracks in the congressional Republican alliance with the President on this, and that Cory Gardner, the senator from Colorado, and Susan Collins from Maine, both Republicans who happen to be up for reelection in 2020 in states that Hillary Clinton won have called for reopening the government without wall money. Now, if you see an outpouring of more and more Republicans coming out and saying this, you know, this fight needs to end and the government needs to reopen, then the White House would be in a very, very difficult position. But at this point, we are seeing Senate majority leader Mitch McConnell standing behind the President on this. He has said no bill will come to the floor of the Senate without the President's support.
[Whitfield:] All right. Sahil Kapur, Julian Zelizer, we will leave it there for now. Thanks so much.
[Zelizer:] Thank you.
[Kapur:] Thank you.
[Whitfield:] And this breaking news. Overnight in Texas where an arrest is made after an intense week-long manhunt in the shooting death of 7-year-old Jazmine Barnes. Now police have charged a man with capital murder. But investigators say there could still be other suspects at large. We are live from Houston, next.