[Hala Gorani, Cnn International Anchor:] Hello, everyone. I'm Hala Gorani live from CNN London. Thanks for being with us this Tuesday. This is THE WORLD RIGHT NOW. Donald Trump has made a career out of firing people on reality television, and from the oval office, the president sent a clear sign he will not tolerate dissent there either, by dismissing Attorney General Sally Yates. She's a holdover of the Obama administration. She only had a few hours left on the job, but she said she would not defend Trump's executive order, banning travelers from seven predominantly Muslim countries in the Middle East and Africa. The White House calls that move a betrayal. Listen.
[Sean Spicer, White House Press Secretary:] You don't believe in the president's agenda, and I think every one of the cabinet members, every one of the appointees understands that they serve at the pleasure of the president. We talked about this at length during the transition. This isn't about joining the government to execute your ideas or your initiatives. The president was very clear during the campaign, whether it's economic security or national security, that he has an agenda that he articulated very, very clearly to the American people. And that hold on. Thank you. And that it is his job to lay that vision out and that the people he appoints and nominates and announces as staff members or cabinet level members or agency heads, their job is to fulfill that. If they don't like it, they shouldn't take the job. It is the president's agenda that we are fulfilling here.
[Gorani:] All right. Very clear there from Sean Spicer. Every day, this daily briefing has been very much scrutinized. Speaking of the travel ban, after four days of chaos, security chiefs explained how they're implementing the controversial order. Dual citizens may enter the U.S. using their passport from the country not on the banned list. Those under the ban would be turned away before boarding departure flights. As constitutional law takes the spotlight as well, there's a lot going on, because Donald Trump beyond all this talk about the travel ban will announce his picks for Supreme Court justice in about five hours. Sources tell CNN, it's down to two. When I say picks, those are the two, quote, "finalists," an administration source told CNN. Neil Gorsuch and Judge Thomas Hardiman, both will be in Washington tonight. Let's discuss all of this. Our CNN politics reporter, Tal Kopan is in Washington for us. Let's first talk about the firing of Sally Yates. She only had a few hours left on the job. She was dismissed, relieved of her duties, according to the White House, and replaced. Jeff Sessions, of course, the new attorney general, confirmed today. What was the point of essentially so publicly dismissing her, do you think?
[Tal Kopan, Cnn Politics Reporter:] I'm not sure that, you know, it was a choice of publicly or not publicly, what happened was it became public that she had issued this memo that she would not defend the executive order. And once that got out, I don't think there would have been any way to dismiss her, not publicly. And so, you know, in some ways, she sort of forced the administration's hand, and that's sort of what has been talked about by some in the administration is, well, why didn't she just resign? You know, there's a sense that perhaps she wanted this to be known publicly, before she actually stepped aside. But, you know, keep in mind, it's a very common question, one that she was actually asked in her confirmation hearing, and Jeff Sessions, Trump's sort of attorney general in waiting was asked during his confirmation hearing, which is, what would you do if you were asked to defend something that you found to be unconstitutional? And she said she would stick with her view of the constitution, and she appears to have lived up to that, according to what she did yesterday.
[Gorani:] All right. And let's talk a little bit about what to expect there from the announcement by President Trump this evening. One of two men, we're talking about, Neil Gorsuch here, verry young men, by the way, Gorsuch is 49, Thomas Hardiman, the other reported potential pick, 51 years old. Both conservative on social issues. What is the expectation this evening?
[Kopan:] Well, yes, I mean, you mentioned that they're young. That's the way to get the most out of your Supreme Court pick, because these are lifetime appointment. So we've seen these picks trending younger, because then you can get years of their viewpoint on the court and with only nine members, you know, one perspective is huge. Keep in mind with Scalia's death, we've got a 4-4 split right now on the Supreme Court. So Trump's pick will sort of restore whatever the balance was when Scalia was on the court. It's likely to be a conservative. But it's someone who's going to sort of bring the court back to where it was under Scalia with one swing vote. So the attitude from the White House has been trying to pick someone they think can get confirmed. With everyone in Washington gearing up for potentially a second appointment down the road somewhere in Trump's term, that could replace one of the liberal justices, now that would swing the court widely. So what we expect to see tonight from one of these two men is a bit of a safe pick, someone who's conservative, but isn't likely to ruffle feathers quite as much, with everyone in Washington keeping an eye on whether he gets another pick down the road in a year or two.
[Gorani:] All right, certainly. I mean, these picks, I imagine, of course, Democrats do not have a majority. What is the strategy here in terms of one of these two men, as far as you think the Trump administration is concerned, to try to get the chances on their side for a confirmation?
[Kopan:] Well, keep in mind, the one thing in the Senate in terms of confirmations that still requires 60 votes is the Supreme Court nominee. So, Republicans only have 52. They're going to need Democrats in order to confirm this nominee. They think they'll get them. There are definitely moderate Democrats, including some who live in states that Trump carried, who are up for re- election the next cycle, which makes them particularly susceptible to a little lobbying. And if the pick is you know, a lot of these confirmation battles have come down to, is the person qualified? You may not agree with their perspective, but are they qualified? That's often how Supreme Court nominees are judged. And with these picks, it's a little bit hard for some of these moderate Democrats to really make a case against voting for them. They'll be put through the ringer, but Democrats may still try to obstruct at all cost. There's still a lot of hard feelings about President Obama not getting his pick for this seat confirmed, for months. So there's going to be some raw tensions and we're probably going to see some serious maneuvering on both sides threatening to eliminate the 60-vote threshold, threatening to filibuster all night. There's going to be a lot of so forth back and forth posturing, even before we get to a vote.
[Gorani:] Well, certainly. We're going to have a lot to cover there. Abby Phillip of "The Washington Post" is able to join us finally. Abby, Sean Spicer, the press secretary, said don't call it a ban, even though the president yesterday tweeted about the ban. We're talking about the partial travel ban against one of seven against a list of seven countries and a total suspension of the Syrian refugee program. There are those waivers being processed. Some visa holders are being allowed in, a few Syrian refugees, as well. What are some of these exceptions?
[Abby Phillip, Cnn Political Analyst:] Well, I think what we're seeing right now is the sort of slow walk back of portions of this executive order between last Friday and today. On Saturday, there were a lot of reports of visa holders and green card holders not only being prevented from entering the United States, but being prevented from boarding flights that landed in the United States, even if they were connections. And that has changed. You heard today, both Sean Spicer and Homeland Security Secretary John Kelly, talking about how the law was not actually intended to impact those people, but that is different from what was happening over the weekend. And I think a similar thing is happening with the language around the executive order. Not calling it a ban is something that is contrary to both what Sean Spicer himself said yesterday at an event in Washington, and also what the president said in a tweet yesterday, as well. So I think the White House is trying to soften the impact of the executive order and soften its public image after a few days of negative coverage.
[Gorani:] And this dismissal of Sally Yates, the acting attorney general, was this to be expected, Abby?
[Phillip:] Well, you know, I think after Sally Yates made it clear that she was going to object to the executive order, it was only a matter of time before Donald Trump would eventually replace her. I mean, as an Obama appointee and as a political appointee at the Department of Justice, she's subject to the whims of the president. That's just how these things work. So it was just a matter of time before she learned her fate. It just so happened that it was a few hours later. But the issue isn't that she was leaving, but rather, how she was dismissed, and the way in which the president and Sean Spicer this morning, called it a betrayal. I mean, that's really sharp language and it's something that is kind of a departure from what we usually hear, even when political appointees are dismissed for political reasons.
[Gorani:] Right. Well, she made a dramatic exit and more just crazy news cycle days, like this one. Tal Kopan, thanks very much. Abby Phillip at "The Washington Post," thanks so both of you for joining us. Earlier, I spoke to former U.S. deputy attorney general, George Terwilliger. I asked him how unusual it is for a president to fire an attorney general.
[George Terwilliger, Former U.s Deputy Attorney General:] Well, it's pretty unusual. It doesn't happen very often. But, you know, in the United States, the way our government works, the executive branch is unitary. So there's one boss and it's the president. When the president gives a directive, it's the responsibility of the people who work for him to carry that out and if they can't carry it out, are a crisis of conscious of some sort, then their job is to resign and leave. Miss Yates just did so in a very noisy manner.
[Gorani:] Right, but aren't there three branches of government? Will the executive now meddle in the judicial every time they feel like officials are not advocating for the president?
[Terwilliger:] No, not at all and in fact, this very case points up what the difference is. The job of the attorney general and the Justice Department here is to go into court in an adversary court system and represent the views of one side. It's not the attorney general's job to be an umpire between the president and the executive branch and its legal opponents.
[Gorani:] Why do it less than 24 hours before the confirmation of President Trump's nominee for attorney general?
[Terwilliger:] It just worked out that way.
[Gorani:] All right, so, it couldn't wouldn't it have been made sense to just wait the half a day until Jeff Sessions is confirmed. He felt like it was necessary.
[Terwilliger:] Yes, and I agree with that. You can have a subordinate official as important as the acting attorney general of the United States, a position I served in, to turn around and say, no, Mr. President, I'm not going to carry out your directions.
[Gorani:] All right. And the reason she was acting attorney general is because Jeff Sessions had not been confirmed yet
[Terwilliger:] That's correct.
[Gorani:] to take his post.
[Terwilliger:] That's correct.
[Gorani:] Let's talk about the executive order, though. You have so many legal challenges being mounted now saying that banning even temporarily the citizens of seven countries is not constitutional.
[Terwilliger:] It's so important to break down what these disputes are actually about and without going into a great deal of detail, some of the disputes are legal. Is this constitutional or is it not constitutional? But mainly, these are policy disputes and policy disputes aren't to be litigated. Policy disputes are adjudicated in the court of public opinion and in the public world between Congress, the president, and the two political parties in the United States.
[Gorani:] But there can be legal challenges.
[Terwilliger:] There can be legal challenges to some of it and of course, it will take a long time for those things to wend their way through the courts. The fact that one judge or another does something initially isn't going to be the bottom line.
[Gorani:] And typically, an executive order, if it is legally challenged, I mean, is that that also, too, must be rather unusual, right?
[Terwilliger:] It's somewhat unusual, but it's really not the order itself that's being challenged, it's the carrying out of the order and the affect that it has on people.
[Gorani:] All right. And this could go to any court level? I mean, it could be at a lower level, it could also possibly go up to a federal level.
[Terwilliger:] It could work its way all the way up to the Supreme Court.
[Gorani:] Even the state of Washington is suing I mean, how does that work? Because that sounds just so to our international viewers, something also extremely unusual, for a state to sue the White House.
[Terwilliger:] Yes. And I don't think that's going to get very far, because our constitution has a supremacy clause in it, which makes the federal government and the U.S. Constitution supreme to the laws of the states.
[Gorani:] OK, so what's the point?
[Terwilliger:] I'm not sure.
[Gorani:] OK. Is it just a symbolic move, do you think on ant part of Washington State?
[Terwilliger:] Perhaps. It could be political.
[Gorani:] And the Supreme Court nominee, we're expecting an announcement there. But I guess people from the outside looking in will say, so Donald Trump, obviously, is the president of the United States. He's the chief of the executive. He is the commander-in-chief, the Republicans have a majority in Congress. He will and has named an attorney general and will name a Supreme Court justice nominee. Where is the checks and balances here?
[Terwilliger:] Well, the checks and balances are going on right before the eyes of the world right now. Many of the checks and balances in our system, as in many democracies, are essentially political in nature, not legal. So we have the opposition party in Congress holding up confirmations, asking hard questions. We have debates about legislation and we have debates about policy, including immigration policy. And in the end, the people decide because if two years from now, they don't like the way things are going, they can change who they vote for and who has a majority in Congress.
[Gorani:] Because in two years, mid-term elections take place, and you could see a change in the majority on Capitol Hill?
[Terwilliger:] You could.
[Gorani:] George Terwilliger actually held the same post as Sally Yates before she became acting attorney general. And that was deputy attorney general that was under the Bush administration, there with his views on some dramatic events unfolding in the nation's capital. A lot more to come this evening, as Canadians mourn the victims of the deadly mosque attack in Quebec. We're learning more about the man police say carried out the massacre. And controversy swirls around President Trump's planned visit to the U.K. Parliament is readying itself for a debate about it. Stay with us.