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Is There Anything Good About Men?
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2 Is There Anything Good About Men?
4 Is There Anything Good About Men? HOW CULTURES FLOURISH BY EXPLOITING MEN Roy F. Baumeister
5 1 Oxford University Press, Inc., publishes works that further Oxford University s objective of excellence in research, scholarship, and education. Oxford New York Auckland Cape Town Dar es Salaam Hong Kong Karachi Kuala Lumpur Madrid Melbourne Mexico City Nairobi New Delhi Shanghai Taipei Toronto With offices in Argentina Austria Brazil Chile Czech Republic France Greece Guatemala Hungary Italy Japan Poland Portugal Singapore South Korea Switzerland Thailand Turkey Ukraine Vietnam Copyright 2010 by Oxford University Press, Inc. Published by Oxford University Press, Inc. 198 Madison Avenue, New York, New York Oxford is a registered trademark of Oxford University Press, Inc. All rights reserved. No part of this publication may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system, or transmitted, in any form or by any means, electronic, mechanical, photocopying, recording, or otherwise, without the prior permission of Oxford University Press Frontispiece Michael Maslin/Condé Nast Publications/ used with permission Library of Congress Cataloging-in-Publication Data Baumeister, Roy F. Is there anything good about men?: how cultures flourish by exploiting men / by Roy F. Baumeister. p. cm. Includes bibliographical references and index. ISBN (hardcover) 1. Men. 2. Men in popular culture. 3. Equality. I. Title. HQ1090.B dc isbn-13: isbn-10: x Printed in the United States of America on acid-free paper
6 Dedicated, with deepest appreciation, To the women who have loved me
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8 Acknowledgments I have worked on this book for years. During that time I have spoken about it with many people. I cannot begin to thank them all. Many of them have helped, although, to be honest, quite a few advised me not to write this book. They thought that saying anything favorable about men is taboo and could seriously damage my career. I hope they are wrong. Three sources of encouragement are therefore particularly welcome and deserve special thanks. The first is my longtime friend and colleague Professor Kathleen Vohs. She supported the project, gave ample constructive criticism of the various ideas, and made many useful suggestions. She also read the entire manuscript and offered detailed and very helpful feedback. Next, I also wish to mention my editor at Oxford, Lori Handelman. She s been delightful to work with and has provided crucial editorial guidance at several key steps along the way. Last, I wish to thank the many men and women who have written to me during this project to express their support and encouragement. Early writings and talks on this topic generated some publicity for it, and many people read those preliminary works and wrote to me about how much better they felt about male female relations and manhood after reading my thoughts. I have written many books and articles and given many talks, but none of them generated anywhere near the popular response as this work did. The warm messages from total strangers helped me keep going during the more difficult stages of getting this book done. vii
9 viii Acknowledgments Two important sources of support also deserve special thanks. My wife Dianne did much toward maintaining a home and life in which this sort of intellectual work could thrive. She also read the entire book and talked about ideas with me, helping to steer me through some of the more difficult and sensitive issues. The other is my employer, Florida State University, which also has helped considerably by creating an environment conducive to this sort of prolonged exercise of reading, thinking, and writing. I wish also to thank others who read the manuscript and offered valuable comments, especially Tyler Stillman and C. Nathan DeWall.
10 Contents chapter 1 An Odd, Unseasonal Question 3 chapter 2 Are Women Better than Men, or Vice Versa? 23 chapter 3 Can t or Won t? Where the Real Differences Are Found 43 chapter 4 The Most Underappreciated Fact About Men 61 chapter 5 Are Women More Social? 81 chapter 6 How Culture Works 109 chapter 7 Women, Men, and Culture: The Roots of Inequality 133 chapter 8 Expendable Beings, Disposable Lives 159 chapter 9 Earning Manhood, and the Male Ego 187 chapter 10 Exploiting Men Through Marriage and Sex 221 chapter 11 What Else, What Next? 249 Sources and References 281 Index 299
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14 CHAPTER 1 An Odd, Unseasonal Question IS THERE ANYTHING GOOD ABOUT MEN? The question is provocative today, because hardly anyone dares to suggest that men are superior to women in any respect. Political correctness permits us to say that women are better than men at one thing or another. But it s mostly taboo even to suggest men are better at anything more important than opening jars and killing bugs. In this book, I develop a somewhat radical theory about men and women. It holds that differences are rooted mainly in tradeoffs. If one gender is better at something, the superior ability will probably be linked to being worse at something else. Otherwise, it would be reasonable to expect that nature would have made both genders equally good at most things. That is not the main point, however. I intend to go far beyond the questions of who is better at what. We want to know not just what men are good at but also what men are good for. One of the most important traits that make us human is our ability to create and sustain giant social systems that can evolve and adapt and compete against each other. These systems are called cultures. I shall suggest that cultures routinely exploit men in certain ways, which is to say cultures find men more useful than women for certain tasks. We shall ask what those tasks are and why cultures pick men for those. The reasons that it has recently become taboo to say positive things about men are rooted in the women s movement and its wide-ranging influence. That, in turn, is grounded in the way men and women relate to 3
15 4 Is There Anything Good About Men? each other in our society and culture. Men and women occupy different positions in society, and always have. If anything, the separate worlds that men and women have long occupied have become merged to a degree that would have astonished many of our ancestors. But all is not yet quite equal, to the dismay of many. Why not? One might instead ask, who cares? But people do care. In particular, men have long held higher positions in society than women have. Most rulers throughout history have been men. Even today, most countries are governed by groups consisting mostly of men. Elsewhere in society, men rule also: in corporate boardrooms, on town councils; even within families, men seem to have more authority. The Global World Forum recently rated most nations on various dimensions of equality, and it found not a single country in which women generally enjoy superior status over men. Nor did the Forum find full equality was reached in any. Thus, men have higher status than women in every country in the world today. To simplify broadly, two main explanations have been put forward for why men have dominated culture and ruled the world. The first was accepted nearly everywhere until the twentieth century: that men were naturally superior to women. The forces that created human beings, whether they involved a divine power or the natural processes of evolution (or some combination), made men to be better and created women to help and serve men. The second explanation was a reaction against the first. It said that women were not inferior to men on any meaningful dimension. Possibly women are superior, but definitely not inferior. Therefore, the difference in social standing had to be explained as oppression. Men must somehow be working together to keep women down. Men devised a clever system for themselves, called patriarchy, and they used it to share rewards and to oppress women. This book offers a third explanation. It s not that men are smarter than women (the first theory). It s not that men are wicked conspirators against women (the second theory). It s about some basic likes and dislikes. It s rooted in how men treat other men, and how that is different from the way women relate to other women. It s about how culture works. Due to an accident that just happened to be lucky for men, culture grew out of the way the men related to each other, more than out of women s relationships. There were crucial tradeoffs: Women s relationships
16 An Odd, Unseasonal Question 5 were vital for some other things. Just not for constructing large systems, like a market economy, or a large team. Because culture grew out of men s relationships including competition, trading and communicating with strangers, and ample doses of violence men were always in charge of it. Gradually things are changing. Women have asked, and occasionally demanded, to be allowed into the giant systems that men built, and to varying degrees they have been let in. Meanwhile, there are hardly any places in the world where men are asking (or demanding) to be allowed into giant social systems built up by women. That in itself is not surprising, because such systems hardly exist. But the lack of such female-created social systems is something worth pondering. What this Book Isn t Before we get started, let s clear up a few things. This book is not against women. It is not even particularly in favor of men. Along the way I will have various, mostly positive things to say about both genders, but those are not the main point. One core interest of the book is to examine how culture exploits men. This does not mean I am denying that culture exploits women too. Many cultures do exploit women, some more than others, and sometimes cruelly. This is not a book based on personal experience. It is certainly not a complaint. I don t regard myself as a victim, either of women or of culture. Women have been very good to me, with a few minor exceptions. Culture has been good to me also, and also with a few minor exceptions. Nor is this book a pitch to gain victim status for men. The modern widespread eagerness to claim victim status for one s own group makes me ill. If you read this book and end up thinking the main point was that men instead of women should be considered victims, or even assume this status alongside women, then you have completely missed my point, and I have failed to get my message across. I don t want to be on anybody s side. Many women are exploited and victimized in their culture. Many unfortunate women have had their lives compromised by society. But men
17 6 Is There Anything Good About Men? are used and exploited too. We are perhaps more accustomed to seeing how society exploits women, but perhaps that is all the more reason to take a look at the other side too. The point is how a giant system of social roles, ideas, and conventions can push people to behave in certain ways, including ways that are not in their best interests. These may include working at a job you detest, putting up with being mistreated, or giving up some of your hard-earned money to support people or projects you may not like. It can even include marching across a field toward people who are trying to shoot you, instead of away from them, like any sensible animal would. Culture uses men in some ways and women in others. If there is a message, it s that it would be better for men and women to appreciate each other s contributions more. Men and women have been partners throughout human history, mostly working together for the good of both. As partners, they have often done quite different things, thereby making different contributions to each other s welfare. That, after all, is how nearly all partnerships work. A bit of mutual gratitude would be quite appropriate. Gender Warriors Please Go Home This book is not about the battle of the sexes. I m not trying to score points for men against women, or vice versa. I don t think the battle approach is healthy. In fact, I think the idea that men and women are natural enemies who conspire deviously to exploit and oppress each other is one of the most misguided and harmful myths that is distorting our current views about men and women. Feminist theory has had the unfortunate side effect of accustoming us all to thinking of gender in terms of conflict: mainly men oppressing women, and men being threatened by female successes. Instead, I think men and women for the most part work together. Any time people work together, there are occasional conflicts, but these are not the main story. One goal of this book is to reinterpret the relations between men and women as more cooperative and complementary than antagonistic. I think most women don t really see men as the enemy, except as taught by some highly politicized Women s Studies classes. Likewise, most men don t see women as their enemy.
18 An Odd, Unseasonal Question 7 Several years ago, when I first began to give talks about how culture uses men, a fellow came up to me after a major speech. He identified himself as a group therapist who had been conducting all-male group therapy sessions for more than twenty years. He said something that has stuck with me ever since. In all those years of men s groups, he had never once heard any group of men talk about women as the enemy. It wasn t that there was no talk of women on the contrary, men talked endlessly about women. And plenty of problems were brought up. But their talking was about how can we learn to understand women, how can we get along with women, how can we give them what they want and satisfy them, and how can we build or repair our relationships with women. It was never about how to exploit women or oppress them or put them in their place, or keep them from being successful at work. The feminist view of what male society is all about is wildly off the mark. It is possible that women s groups sometimes discuss men as the enemy. Even so, I don t think that is as common as the gender warriors want us to think. I spent many years teaching and doing my research at a fine private university in Ohio named Case Western Reserve University. It suited me well for many reasons, not least of which was most of the faculty and students seemed indifferent to politics. But the national politics did occasionally or eventually make an impact there. At one of these points, the university administration woke up to the idea that women faculty needed encouragement and support, and they proposed to set up a program to help the women junior faculty get help and advice in launching their careers. Junior faculty is a technical term referring to young professors who do not yet have tenure. It s often a difficult phase of life, because for the first time you are no longer a student and so nobody gives you advice or tells you what to do, and you have to figure out how to juggle all the complicated demands of the job: teaching classes, serving on committees, advising students, running a laboratory and collecting data, and publishing instead of perishing. Across the nation, there were claims that women were finding this an especially difficult time, sometimes complicated by the rush to start a family before one reached the age of 40 and perhaps not getting enough help from the older, tenured (mostly male) professors. Hence, many universities were setting up special programs to help these young
19 8 Is There Anything Good About Men? women get their careers going. Somebody at my university finally noticed the trend and thought we should have one too. The university polled the women faculty and contacted the campus women s center to solicit suggestions and comments to find out what the female junior faculty would most like from such a program. The women had a big meeting, discussed the proposal at length, and then voted to approve the plan with one major change: The university should offer it to both men and women. Obviously, they thought that giving young professors a bit of help and advice was a good thing. But the women didn t think it was fair or necessary that only the female junior faculty should benefit from this. They came out strongly in favor of creating the program to be available to all junior faculty, male and female. The point of this story is that there is often much less than meets the eye to the so-called Battle of the Sexes. From reading feminist accounts of gender politics one gets the impression that men and women have been collective enemies throughout history (and still are). Instead, I think that in general men and women look upon each other rather favorably and try to treat each other fairly. The generosity of these women professors in wanting to share their programs with their male colleagues is hardly an isolated incident. Nor is such fairness one-sided. Men, too, have been actively and vocally in favor of extending their rights and privileges to women. Even in that story, it was male deans and administrators who had first raised the idea of starting a program for the women faculty. About Feminism Any fair assessment of modern American feminism would have to assert that on the one hand, there has been some brilliant and insightful scholarship that has advanced our collective understanding of the truth. Likewise, it would have to acknowledge, on the other hand, that some of it has fostered hatred and readily sacrificed the pursuit of truth for the sake of self-interested political gain. Feminism is a big tent, covering many different views and attitudes. Many of us, especially those of us past a certain age, have affectionate memories of the feminist movement in the 1970s. We associated feminism with promoting equality, challenging entrenched wisdom, touting openness to free thought and new ideas, and searching in an idealistic spirit for positive views toward both genders. These days many people associate feminism
20 An Odd, Unseasonal Question 9 with something quite different, even the opposite: promoting women at the expense of men, defending dogmas, stifling new thought, and deploring men. I used to call myself a feminist but, like many men and women, I have grown uncomfortable with the label, given what it has come to mean. Quite possibly both the old and the new views have something to them. In her book Who Stole Feminism? Christina Hoff Sommers argued that the feminist movement had indeed changed from a men-welcoming, idealistic movement promoting one kind of utopia into an antagonistic and often stridently anti-male movement. The very success of the 1960s 1970s feminism at achieving many of its reasonable goals caused many to think the job was done. Fewer moderate women joined, and this left the movement to be taken over by the more radical and fanatical types. Although feminist ideas are mentioned from time to time in this book, I want to emphasize from the start that I am not debating any actual feminist scholars or the movement of feminist thought itself. In fact, I strongly suspect there is no point in debating with feminists. The business of feminism was aptly summarized by Daphne Patai and Noretta Koertge, two scholars who have spent their careers in Women s Studies programs and who wrote a thoughtful book, Professing Feminism, on what passes for scholarly activity in those departments. Crucially, they pointed out that most feminists do not pay any attention to criticisms from non-feminists. They listen a little bit to criticism from each other but that mainly concerns the purity of their commitment to feminist politics and doctrine. When scientists criticize each other, they focus mainly on research methods and how well different possible theories fit the data. That sort of thing is not common in Women s Studies, according to Patai and Koertge. That means that even if an outsider like me made the most brilliant, correct, and insightful point against some feminist claim, the feminists wouldn t listen or change their views one iota. So why bother? Meet the Imaginary Feminist There is however one reason I will occasionally need to mention feminist views. For better or worse, feminists have dominated discourse about gender and how men and women relate to each other. Their views have become the standard, conventional wisdom. Many readers will automatically think of standard feminist views when I bring up issues like why women
21 10 Is There Anything Good About Men? earn less money than men (e.g., the system of patriarchy oppresses women by not giving them a fair wage). My argument is not with actual feminist scholars, and especially not with the most open-minded and thoughtful among them. Indeed, my thinking has been informed by them, some of whom are quite brilliant. Rather, my argument is with a certain stereotyped feminist outlook. I am arguing not with actual feminists, but with feminists as they are perceived by men. Let me therefore introduce a character, the Imaginary Feminist, who will crop up from time to time to remind us of the established wisdom. The most advanced intellectual feminists may object to what she says and to my depiction of her. They may say, that s not necessarily what all feminists assert. I agree. I don t care. I need to address the misconceptions that many men have about gender relations. The Imaginary Feminist represents these. The extent to which actual feminists are responsible for these views is debatable,: it might be extensive or it might be less. But before you dismiss the views of the Imaginary Feminist as irrelevant, ask a few men whether her comments are indeed those they would expect many feminists to express. Again, I freely admit she doesn t speak for all feminists (as if anybody does). She represents the sorts that men notice the most. These include the ones who have campaigned to have urinals removed from public lavatories so that men will be forced to sit down to urinate, on the grounds that when men urinate standing up they are dominating and oppressing women. These include the ones who cheered the news that Title IX accomplished more in the way of canceling men s sports teams than promoting women s teams. They include the leaders who urged women to become lesbians because sex with men was sleeping with the enemy. They include the ones who insult men who hold the door for them or, more generally, who attack anything men say and ultimately try to intimidate men from having or expressing opinions. In short, these are the grumpy and simplistic ones who explain everything in terms of male wickedness and oppression. Who Stands Out? When I proposed this book, I said that the hostility between the sexes had been overstated. I mentioned as an example the women s suffrage
22 An Odd, Unseasonal Question 11 movement. I pointed out that women got the vote because a majority of men, only men, voted to extend the vote to women. That was hardly resistance. I said compared to the way men react when they really do want to resist somebody such as when men fight a military invasion by an enemy men had essentially welcomed women with open arms and affirmative action. One reviewer objected strenuously. She said I should learn some history. The campaigners for women s suffrage had endured verbal and occasionally physical abuse. Hunger strikers had been force-fed, and so on. She was right about those particulars, of course. On the other hand, I was also right about the voting. To understand the correctness of both views, one has to distinguish between the general pattern and the most salient and confrontational minority. It works both ways. The actions of the male majority are indisputable, because the election depended on them. Most men voted to extend the vote to women. These men were not conquered or overwhelmed by invaders, nor were they cowed into submission. To the suffragettes and others, however, the support from the relatively silent majority of men was less visible perhaps than the overt hostility and occasionally violent abuse from the most vocal minority. Hence, one can understand that many women saw men in general as actively resisting them. The nasty few left much more of an impression than the friendly many. The same logic applies, with roles reversed, to the way men today perceive feminists. No doubt there are many women who identify themselves as feminists yet who do not hate men and may even like them, who may believe in equal opportunity for everyone rather than advancing the cause of their gender at the expense of men, who believe in telling the truth even if it is not favorable to their cause, and who do not resort to moral intimidation to silence men and dominate any debate. Yet these are not the feminists who stand out to men. The confrontational minority of feminists act as if they represent all feminists (indeed all women), and men have had much more contact with them than with the more harmoniously and peaceably inclined ones, precisely because they are outspoken and confrontational. It is with their views that I will occasionally need to take issue. They are the ones for whom the Imaginary Feminist speaks.
23 12 Is There Anything Good About Men? Oppression and Prejudice One main theme that the Imaginary Feminist will bring up over and over is that society is riddled with prejudice against women and that the history of male female relations consists of various ways in which men have oppressed women. This has become a standard view. If you question it, the Imaginary Feminist does not typically respond with carefully reasoned arguments or clear data. Instead, she accuses you of being prejudiced and oppressive even for questioning the point. If she does point to evidence, it will be something like women earn less money than men or people prefer sons to daughters. These are supposed to qualify as proof. In science, especially social science, statistical data are often a bit slippery and there are often several possible explanations for any finding. Having spent my career engaged in this business, I can vouch for what goes on when you try to publish the results of experiments you have done: There is debate among the reviewers chiefly as to whether you have ruled out all other possible explanations, other than your preferred one, for your findings. Yet sometimes claims about oppression and prejudice seem immune to this process. They are not treated with the same strict discipline that other scientific theories must encounter. Take the difference in salary. This will be discussed at several points in this book, but for now we are concerned with the simple question: Do women s generally lower salaries prove that society oppresses women? Other researchers have examined this question, and the oppression hypothesis routinely has taken a beating. There are multiple possible explanations for the gender salary gap, and several have much clearer support than oppression. Men are more likely than women to work full-time rather than part-time. On average across the population, men are more ambitious than women. They work harder and put in hundreds more hours per year. Men are less likely than women to take a few years off during the crucial career-building years of their thirties. Men take bigger risks than women. Men are more willing to sacrifice other sorts of career benefits, such as freedom from travel requirements, low stress, and even personal safety, for a higher salary. Men are more likely than women to negotiate for a higher salary. All these contribute to higher male salaries.
24 An Odd, Unseasonal Question 13 The preference for boy babies is an interesting case, particularly to me because early in my career, I used to lecture about this in connection with prejudice against girls and women. The research finding I read when I was writing my first lectures back in 1979 was that parents were more likely to have another child if their first or previous child had been a girl than a boy. The explanation given at that time was that parents really want sons, and so if they have a girl, they regard the reproductive event as a failure and are eager to try again, whereas if they have a son, they are satisfied and so they stop. It made sense to me. As a trusting young member of the field, I believed what was in the journals, and I passed that interpretation along in my lectures. But in fact, there are alternative explanations. I have seen multiple sets of parents, even some who obviously had strong pro-female sentiments, go through the same pattern of having another child after a daughter but stopping after a son, and it seemed absurd to accuse them of anti-female bias. They loved their daughters. What they said, and what research evidence also shows (if anyone had bothered to look before attributing parental choices to sexism), is that girl babies are generally easier than boy babies. Not always, of course, but often enough to account for the pattern we are describing. Many couples are apprehensive as the birth of their first child approaches. How will their lives change? Will they be good parents? Will they be able to cope? And then a sweet little girl baby arrives. A bit of adjustment here and there, and the couple thinks, hey, this is not bad at all! What was everyone warning and complaining about? Having a baby is easy and so very satisfying. Let s have another! Boy babies are more trouble. They scream and cry more often than girl babies, and louder too. (Incidentally, this well-documented finding has been recognized as an important challenge to the conventional claim that females are more emotional than males.) Once they start crawling and walking, they get into things. They make bigger messes. They climb the furniture and pull the draperies. They fight with other kids. Parents who have boys think, this is difficult. Let s not have any more of these. Recently I visited China. The preference for boys there is well entrenched in the culture and it is hard to deny that there is overt preference, to the point of prejudice. Today, with the one-child policy preventing parents from trying again if they have a daughter, it has been necessary to make it
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Sneaky Politicians
Dear Alibi,
It's interesting to see how politicians work. I saw a perfect example of how sneaky they can be when I caught a rerun of Mayor Chavez' press conference on the local government access channel.
The mayor was toting the new gang registry. At the end of the press conference, when questions had been asked and answered, the mayor threw in a bit about how, over a free lunch for the reporters, he would also be celebrating the private funding of middle school athletics. The mayor went on to explain that since APS had cut funding for the athletics program, private donors had picked up the slack and raised money to continue with the programs. Then he threw in the line that the city will be "kicking in a little money" as well. Thankfully, one of the reporters had the smarts to ask just how much money the city was adding. The mayor replied that the city was giving $50,000 to go along with $54,000 in donations that had been raised.
I and everybody else in the city realizes that $50,000 isn't a "little money"--it's $4,000 shy of half! I'm not writing to debate whether or not middle school athletics is a worthy program. I just wanted to point out that the mayor, and most other politicians, like to play word games when it comes to spending the taxpayers' money. And to me, half is a lot more than a "little money." Makes me wonder what else the mayor has tried to slip by the citizens of Albuquerque.

subset: commoncrawl


text:
I got up this morning, sent Ziz and Enz off to school, dressed Moo and Duke, went for a run, came home and showered. By then it was time to go pick up the kindergartners (early release day) so I did that, stopped for gas on the way home. Brought an extra five year old home with me to stay for an hour while I whipped my kitchen into shape so I could make three batches of jam before feeding my kids a late lunch and starting on a peach pie because I pealed more peaches than I needed for my three batches of jam. Is it any wonder that at two thirty as I tried to convince Duke that his waking up after only an hour and a half of sleep (he usually naps 3 hours) was a mistake I found myself snuggled up with him in the pack and play? It was really quite comfortable.
(I actually wrote that on Friday. Today I made another 3 batches of jam plus one simmering pot of pear butter and managed it without finding myself cocooned in infant bedding of any kind.)
Monday, September 10, 2012
2 comments:
- Christina said...
Have you ever tried mixing strawberry and peach jam? My kids actually like the half and half variety better than the straight stuff of either flavor. Hope it all turned out well.
- September 12, 2012 at 3:24 PM
- Eva said...
I was actually making peach raspberry combo that day. It's delish and good thing too because I have 21 pints of the stuff
- September 12, 2012 at 7:56 PM
Subscribe to: Post Comments (Atom)


text:
We couldn't find any dresses matching your search criteria. Please remove some filters and try again.
Cynthia Rowley's eponymous label was launched in 1988, a capsule collection which has grown into one of the world's luxury lifestyle labels. Based in New York City, Cynthia Rowley has flagship stores across the globe – the label embodies the modern, adventurous woman. With GlamCorner, you can access these beautiful, vibrant designs at a fraction of their retail price!
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text:
The City Planning Maps in the Planning Atlanta collection consist of over 1,500 maps from the City of Atlanta, Atlanta Regional Commission, MARTA, and other agencies. About half of the collection consists of sheet maps and the other half are planning maps from within the Planning Atlanta collection's publications. This collection of maps provides a vivid portrait of the city's built environment and depicts structural conditions of buildings, segregated neighborhoods, land use patterns, clearance areas for urban renewal projects, proposed plans for redevelopment and outlined areas to be cleared for highway construction.
This collection of maps is designed to be an interactive digital collection for researchers, educators, and the general public. Not only can the items in this collection be viewed online and downloaded, each map can also be viewed as an overlay in both Google Maps and Google Earth. When these maps are viewed in Google Maps or Google Earth, neighborhood and city-wide change become readily apparent by comparing contemporary satellite images with the georeferenced historical planning maps. For advanced geographic information systems (GIS) users, each map can be downloaded as a GeoTiff image file. The overlays were created using ArcMap and MapTiler.
Copyrights to the items in this collection are held by various entities. Rights information, if known, is specified in the item's description.
Add maps from this collection to web mapping applications by copying this WMS link:


text:
شهر خاموش
Our Global Hit today is the result of an international collaboration that started because of Yo-Yo Ma's project. It involves classical musician Kayhan Kalhor from Iran -- and a string quartet from New York known as Brooklyn Rider.
They've produced a new CD together called "Silent City." Kalhor and the members of Brooklyn Rider met in Massachusetts a few years back. Kalhor was intrigued by the idea of working with a modern string quartet.
The quartet's members were interested in Persian musical traditions. Two of them traveled to Iran, where Kalhor showed them around and introduced them to other Iranian musicians.
They also played together -- and that was the genesis of the new album. The CD's title track "Silent City" was composed by Kayhan Kalhor. It's a 29-minute opus dedicated to the victims of Halabja.
That's the Kurdish city that former Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein attacked with chemical weapons back in 1988. Thousands of Kurds were killed. But Silent City is also a tribute to fallen cities everywhere.
In the CD's liner notes, the musicians recall a recent performance in California. Some New Orleans residents were in the audience. Afterward, they came up to the musicians to say that "Silent City" made them think of their city's ordeal after Hurricane Katrina.
Yet -- according to Kayhan Kahlor and Brooklyn Rider -- the piece is above all a reminder that life always returns.
سلام عزیزم ... احوال شما
ادیب عزیز: تو در وبلاگت موسیقی کلهر را بررسی نمیکنی. آن را نقد هم نمیکنی. تو فقط کلهر را ستایش میکنی. ولی آیا در مواجهه با جادوی موسیقی کلهر چارهای جز ستایش داریم؟ استوار باش و در اندیشهی ستایشهایی نو برای شاهکارهای هنوز ناشنیدهی کلهر.


text:
Use Computer Accessories To Promote Your Company
Any and every company knows that in order to get customers they need to advertise themselves. Advertisement would ensure that the highest number of people get to know about the existence of a company, of its products and its purpose. Where earning profits is a goal, customers are what/who help gain profits because, obviously, without any buyers there would be no way companies could meet overheads and other costs of the sort.
Where non-profit earning companies are concerned, they need to advertise themselves so that they can attract people to help them achieve a goal- whether this is to take steps towards eradicating poverty, educating the poor or spreading awareness about a disease.
Promotion is what helps attract different people from different places and of diverse backgrounds to a company. This is why we can see many companies with successful advertisement campaigns attracting many people from all over the world- tourist go to their stores in order to buy their products; where a service is offered, people are willing to go through great distances in order to hire the services of professionals that work in a company for their expertise. These companies promote themselves to the extent that people want to hire their services or buy their goods.
For those of you who work in or for a company, the use of promotional computer accessories is a good idea because these are cheap accessories which would help your company gain exposure all over the world. Every person with a laptop and/or computer purchases these accessories for their computers and laptops. These devices are cheap for customers and they are also cheap for companies that are interested in advertising themselves in an effective manner.
Everyone who walks into a house with a computer may happen to see a mouse pad or an "interesting looking" computer mouse and may inquire about the manufacturer of the products. This is how the conversation of the maker of the product springs up.
So, by purchasing promotional computer accessories consumers, unintentionally, tend to advertise the maker of the product. People often ask others about where they got an accessory from if it appeals to them. While some prefer fancy computers accessories in order to personalize their laptops and computers, others prefer simpler designs or a plain mouse and mouse pad with a simple logo in order to advertise themselves.
So, the fact that these products are available in different forms and a diverse range and look of these products are available is what would help attract the attention of the masses. After all, that is the main goal of advertisement, right? To attract a high number of customers so that a company can make a profit, meet overheads and make people aware of their existence in the market.
Hence, promotional computer accessories are not only the perfect way to advertise a company due to the fact that they get great exposure, but the use of such accessories for advertisement by companies would be much cheaper than most other methods of advertisement.
Looking for the top quality promotional apparel, custom promotional apparel shirt, logo shirts, trade show giveaway items and promotional computer accessories for brand/company advertising; Intimepromos.com has the best deals for you. Tony Masood Intimepromos.com 111 Deerwood Road, Suite 200, San Ramon, CA 94583-4409 Email:email@example.com


text:
Looking for models in costume to photograph (Venice)
Hi, is anyone planning on being in elaborate costume for the Venice carnival? Do you want some professional photos of yourselves for free?
I'm here principally to photograph the carnival as a press photographer but I also want to get some decent portraits with the right lighting etc.of people in costume. I'm a professional photographer but portraiture work is a new area for me so I'm happy to do it on a quid pro quo basis whereby I get to practise and build my portfolio and you get to take away some nice pictures. You can see my blog here to see if you like my style: Protected content
Also, if any other photographers want to shoot with me we can take it in turns with holding the reflector!


text:
Thursday, October 12, 2006
Friday 13
2. Fixed my shoe storage system – now I can find exactly what I want to wear without opening half a dozen shoe boxes in the morning and sneezing to death from all the dust.
3. I realized my feet have grown humongous after having two babies. I went from a size 7 to a size 9. The only thing good about this is that my size is always the one available in a shoe sale. So there!
4. Replenished my "To be read" book pile. It used to have 50 books which I've whittled down to around 20 and then it's up to 40 again. Yay!
5. I've submitted all the requirements for my kids' big school application. Now all I have to do is keep my fingers crossed and pray that they get accepted.
6. In light of the past typhoon which caused a lot of damage to the steel structures where advertising billboards are posted, the MMDA are taking it out. Traffic's been horrendous the past few days, I'll be glad when everything's back to normal.
7. I won the most recent scrabble game with Jun. Our current game's almost done – only 17 tiles left and I'm around 30 points behind. Help!
8. The kids' trick or treat costumes this year have been settled. Joshua is a recycled Superman (thank goodness the costume still fits) and Faith is a fairy (c/o of my aunt who so thoughtfully sent over a fairy costume from the US),
9. I've also fixed the kids' closets – only the toys and old clothes left to organize for donation on Christmas.
10. Apart from the Halloween costume, my aunt also sent Ghirardelli chocolates! I'm in heaven.
11. It feels strange to be in a new office with a lot of new faces. I'm slowly getting used to it but I miss my old officemates terribly.
12. My aunt also sent a black robe with a cowl for Joshua which is a bit too big for him. Last night my dad put it on along with a freaky shark hat and went outside to the terrace to scare the maids.
13. Only 75 days till Christmas!
7 comments:
- Ces said...
Your closet will be filled again - soon. Clothes multiply.
My feet splayed too after pregnancy. From 7 to 9 1/2. Amazing.
The typhoon was horrendous but how admirable for the people to have not acted the way people in New Orleand did. Ooops, I forgot these are Filipinos - they rise from catstrophes and disasters without losing their dignity year after year after year...
What happened to your old officemates? Were they laid off?
"Only 75 days till Christmas!" Thanks for reminding me. Can I panic now??? ARRRRRGGGGH! :p
- Menchie said...
Totally agree with you about Pinoys. And no, I just moved to another job and left my old ofcmates behind.
Would it make you panic more if I told you I'm almost done with my Christmas shopping? AHAHAHAHAHAHA!
- Maria said...
i enjoyed reading your latest posts. haven't had the chance to post a comment cause i've been busy, i'm actually working - hehe!
naka relate ako huh, I miss the old ofc, too. and yes, i still do afterall these yearS. I heard there's been big changes… it'd be nice if there's a reunion one day –of course, we'll come up with a guest list, right? *wink!*
- Menchie said...
Haven't had a chance to update much since I still have no email access yet in the new office. BTW, am with Jollibee now. Been making the rounds of the different brands which is so much fun! (Been making pizzas in Greenwich!).
And of course merong guestlist sa reunion! *wink*
Are we the "old" officemates you miss??? :-)
Saw new pairs of Chinese Laundry shoes...it's so you!
- Menchie said...
Of course My! Ay! I shouldn't go to Galleria pala. Bibili na naman ako tapos they'll go on sale after two months. Kainis!


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If you have an: Android Phone or Android Tablet
You can download: 3M Cloud Library eBooks using the free 3M Cloud Library App for Android
1. Open the Android Market or Google Play and search for "3M Cloud Library" or click here. Download and install the free app.
2. Tap the 3M Cloud Library icon to run the app.
Select South Carolina as your state and Richland County PL as your library.
Enter your library card number. Agree to the End User License Agreement, then tap Login.
3. You are now ready to search for and download eBooks, read them, and check them back in early (optional).
The navigation icons at the top of the screen allow you to browse by Shelves (Channels) or by Categories, to Search, or to view your Books.
Tapping once in the center area of an open eBook will reveal more options. Click on the Gear icon that appears at the top of the screen to adjust reading preferences. Click on the "Close" button that appears in the top left corner to exit the eBook and return to your "shelf."
The following slideshow demonstrates how to download and use the 3M Cloud Library mobile app. (Note: the slideshow depicts an iPad, but the Android app shares the same features.)


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DUI incidents captured on video
MARTINSBURG, W.Va. - In response to public outcry over drunken drivers, Martinsburg city police have toughened up their efforts to catch offenders by acquiring surveillance equipment for use by a DUI Enforcement Team.
In 1995, the most recent year for which statistics are available, Berkeley County had the second-highest DUI fatality rate in West Virginia. About 43 percent of all fatal accidents were DUI-related, said Lela L. von Philp, traffic safety coordinator for the Eastern Panhandle Community Traffic Safety Program.
Police said they want to ensure that those who ignore the law pay the penalty. In mid-February, the department organized a four-person DUI Enforcement Team that patrols on weekends and holidays looking for signs of intoxicated drivers.


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The Privilege That Dares Not Speak Its Name?
Huffington Post
Barbara & Shannon Kelley
August 25, 2011
Following the dismissal of the sexual assault case against Dominique Strauss-Kahn, the issue of power and privilege must be examined as a factor in understanding why Strauss-Kahn was considered more believable than his accuser. Citing the work on unearned privilege by Peggy McIntosh, associate director of the Wellesley Centers for Women, the authors believe that it is time to start paying attention to the power differential created by white and male privilege in this case.
Read article. This post also ran on salon.com.


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Meet the Jacks Participating this Year!
One of the hardest transitions for some of our foreign exchange students is choosing a name. For students from cultures with languages very different from English in the United States, many students choose an "English" name to identify by at first, later teaching their host families and new friends their name in their own language. Some students even love the opportunity to pick out a name for themselves, naming themselves after favorite sports stars or important figures in history. This year, we're excited to welcome three Jacks (Jack, Jacky, and Jackie!) to the program. Each one of these kids offers something special to whichever host family he ends up staying with. Read below to "Meet the Jacks," and submit a FREE host family application to receive a video of Jack introducing himself in person!
Meet the Jacks
MY dear host family:
Here I am always eagerly looking forward to attain an opportunity to stay with you! Primarily, please allow me to make a brief self-introduction to you before we meet in America.
My English name is Jack. I'm from China. I am a 15-year-old boy who is always outgoing, optimistic, talkative and kind-hearted but also a little bit nervous and unconfident while encounter with a lot of people. Besides, I am always ready to help others in need, so I have a multitude of lifelong friends!
As for my hobbies, I love playing basketball and listening to music, drawing, riding bike and I wonder if you have a pet like dogs that will be wonderful, because I dogs are my favorite animal. So if you have a dog too, I will be agog to meet her/him.
Furthermore, I study in Chengdu No.7 middle school, and because of my poor math, my grades are always in the middle. On the other hand, I think that my P.E is not bad, and I love exercise. Plus my Chinese is actually really good, so if you are interested in Chinese, I am happy to tell you something about it.
First of all, the reason why I want to study in America is that my dream is becoming a basketball player and I think America is the origin of basketball. NBA is the best association in the world, I love its culture, and I want to feel this culture. And plus, I think that American education is more suitable for me ,it can give me plenty of time to do what I want to do , I love freedom that is second reason that I love America. And the most important reason is that the United States is a country that has the most advanced technology. And the education system there encourages origination and creativity. The freedom people enjoy in the U.S. cultivates a culture that is generating millions of new ideas. Being educated in the U.S. will definitely change my life. I will work hard and take every bit of benefit from the opportunity of studying in the United States. I understand there will be difficulties that I have to face. English language is hard for me. There will be culture shock, homesick. However, I feel I am fully charged and ready to face the challenge.
Meanwhile, I'm looking forward to having a wonderful year with you and your family.
Sincerely yours, Jack
Meet Jacky
My dear host family:
Thank you for considering me as a part of your family.
My English name is Jacky. I am a 16 years old boy desiring knowledge and really excited about this special opportunity of spending a year studying in the U.S. My family and I got to know J-1 cultural exchange program through a friend of my mother. I have never lived in a foreign country before, so I think this would be a very good chance for me to learn US culture and introduce my own culture at the same time. My parents will be very proud of me because I will be the first one in my family and extended family to study abroad. To me, this chance will provide me a wider scene of the world and show me American life style and culture.
I am living in China. Currently I am attending grade 10. My city is a very beautiful tourist city in the province. Thanks to this, I can travel around my city easily and gain such memories of so many nice places. The attractive environment and natural landscapes bolster my city's reputation as a garden city and a model city of best living environment. It is the third city in the province earning the largest foreign exchange from international tourism, the local government is constantly improving the existing tourist spots and exploring new tourist resources. I was impressed by the long long sea of my area. Over the Ocean Avenue has a large screen and there the children couldn't stop playing with marine related straight 4D animation. Street lined with tall pillars, each roof is decorated very beautiful, there are numerous color starfish, coral, really let people feel as to the bottom of the sea world. Step over the Ocean Avenue, really into the ocean Kingdom, here are many animal exhibition hall, can watch the dolphins, clever beluga, lovely elephant, manatee, beautiful coral, exquisite small starfish, shells and precious sturgeon. A variety of marine life make people too busy to attend to all a superb collection of beautiful things.
I have various interests. I love science and sports, especially making model planes. In 2014, I participated in the my city's Teenager Science and Technology Innovation Contest. I ranked the seventh and won the second prize . I was the only one who makes model planes among participants. I was selected a team number to participate in the third province Teenagers' Science Experience Activity , and won the second prize in physics group in the final . I also have learned Latin dance continuously for 5 years in my childhood and have won prizes in the competitions of provincial and city level for many times . And I also have learned to play the piano and some Chinese traditional musical instruments for a short time. For sports, I like playing ping- pang, badminton, basketball and swimming. In 2012-2013 , I participated in the Audition of the TV show Rong Hong after showing my talent and was selected by the TV crew to play the role of someone in the movie, one of the children sent to study in the U.S. It took 18 days to complete the filming. This is my first contact with the film.
Since my childhood, my mother has paid great attention in my ability to make a speech. I was selected as the outstanding representative to give a speech under the national flag in the school and participated the school speech contest for many times. In Grade 8, I won the first prize in the Dream of See, Journey of Youth Middle School Students Speech Contest with the highest score in my school, and represented my school to participate in the speech contest of city level , and won the excellent award . In addition I have won prizes in writing for several times. I also have an article won the second prize in Moving You and Me, Endless Care Writing Contest held by my city's Federation of the disabled.
I have a warm family. My mother and father are teachers. She takes pride in her career and always tries to make an effort to complete her mission best as she can. She sometimes works until midnight to correct students' homework. However, no matter how much she has spent on her job, she is a neat and lenient mother to me. Every evening I get home from school, she waits me in the dining room with dinner that she just made. She also teaches me living skills like cooking and washing clothes. We often share what we see and hear every time we spend time together. My father often tells me interesting knowledge in Physics, and that's how my interest in science and technology developed.
My responsibility in my family is to wash dishes or clothes sometimes after school. Also, I enjoy cooking with my parents in the evening, greatly relaxed after a long day of studying. I'd like to be a help in your house too.We not usually dine out because they like to cook by themselves. When it's dinner time, my father tells me the global economical and political situations, and I tell him about my school life. Both of us share true feeling to each other. We have been really good friends, even though we argue a few times. Re-logic (in Chinese) is my dog's name, he has been so close to me that I call him 'son'. He has become our family member 2 years ago, I still remember how afraid he was when he first came to my family. Now he grows really fast and builds solid relationship between us. Usually I go out for a walk with him on weekends, he rushes to the door and waits for me every time I call 'come on and play". The happiness he brought me is the best memories during years of hard-working.
I greatly appreciate for your consideration for hosting me as an exchange student. I wish you could come to China someday, and I will be very happy to take you to my city if you like. I hope to spend a year with you and your family together, and learn American culture. It would be a very unique experience to add to my life. I look forward to meeting you soon.
Meet Jackie
Dear host family:
My name is Jackie, a male student from China. I'm looking forward to my near future's study in the US. And this letter is to assure you that I will be an appropriate host student.
I'm 16 now, and I'm in my first year in high school. I'm the only child in my family, so I have a very close tie with my parents, who have been teaching me to be an independent, kind-hearted and hardworking person. Although it is true that my parents have a big influence on my life, I have always wanted to make decisions for my own life, which is why I plan to participate in this student exchange program.
Here in my city, I engage in a variety of social and campus activities. In the school, I am a member of the viola ensemble in the orchestra. We have a weekly rehearsal, and there are about four or five municipal competitions each semester with other schools. Last year, we even had a contest with a school from the US. I'm excited about music instruments, and I can play both the violin and the viola. Sometimes I play the violin to relax myself. In terms of sports, I like playing basketball, tennis and ping-pong. I play basketball every day after school and I am in the school basketball club. I play tennis every week. There's a tennis field near my house, so it's pretty convenient.
I am convinced that I can blend well into American family culture. Although I admit that there's a big room for improvement for my English, communication won't be a problem. I like making friends, and I'm always considered an easy-going person. I haven't had any arguments with my friends or parents. So I believe my politeness and calmness are my favorable point as a host student. And when I'm alone, I will not feel bored because I love reading and listening to music. I'm also a very understanding person. To be specific, I always help people in need, and I don't make a lot of noise in public occasions. So I think I would be a perfect fit into a host family.
Another reason that I want to make change in my life is that I'm disappointed at the way my current life is arranged in China. Basically, study takes up too much of my time and I am overwhelmed by my homework. I am trying to figure out a balance between my school and my off-campus life, but it always drives me crazy. I negotiated with my parents and we agreed that the student exchange program is a good idea. Since I made the decision, I feel more motivated, and I spend more time improving my English skills. I'm now preparing for the TOEFL, and I find it challenging but interesting.
I hope I can make the best of this trip to America. On one hand, I'm looking forward to enhancing my academic capabilities, particularly my English level. On another aspect, I hope from this experience, I will learn to adapt to the American culture, which will be critical for my future study and even work in the US. I expect to be admitted to a top university in the US and hopefully I can figure out what my academic interest is.
At last, thank you very much for your time to read this letter. I hope you can consider me as a member for your family.
Interested in learning more about hosting Jack, Jacky, Jackie, or any of the other students in SAE's program? Visit our Host Family Page to find out what makes a good host family or contact one of our Local Coordinators using the form below!


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Post #6 supplied a fair selection of patristic quotes supportive of the primacy of the bishop of Rome. Is there any need to rehash them or to multiply them?
"For if when here he loved men so, that when he [Peter] had the choice of departing and being with Christ, he chose to be here, much more will he there display a warmer affection. I love Rome even for this, although indeed one has other grounds for praising it, both for its greatness, and its antiquity, and its beauty, and its populousness, and for its power, and its wealth, and for its successes in war. But I let all this pass, and esteem it blessed on this account, that both in his lifetime he wrote to them, and loved them so, and talked with them whiles he was with us, and brought his life to a close there." John Chrysostom, Epistle to the Romans, Homily 32 (c. A.D. 391).
"Or rather, if we hear him here, we shall certainly see him hereafter, if not as standing near him, yet see him we certainly shall, glistening near the Throne of the king. Where the Cherubim sing the glory, where the Seraphim are flying, there shall we see Paul, with Peter, and as a chief and leader of the choir of the Saints, and shall enjoy his generous love. For if when here he loved men so, that when he had the choice of departing and being with Christ, he chose to be here..." John Chrysostom, Epistle to the Romans, Homily 32:24 (c. A.D. 391).
"The Son granted to Peter over all the earth a power which is that of the Father and of the Son himself, and gave to a mere mortal man authority over all that is in heaven, in giving the keys to the same."St John Chrysostom, Bishop of Constantinople, A.D. 398
What is particularly significant is that apostolic Tradition is not limited to the body of writings left to us by early church fathers, many of their writings are not available to us anyway - having been lost. Tradition is particularly contained in the teaching of Christ handed down to us both in scripture and in the living teaching that the bishops receive through apostolic succession, particularly through the Spirit of Christ as he teaches them, using all the things that they hear and read and receive by example from their predecessors. So when we say that dogmas have always been believed we are affirming that Christ taught them, even though not every element of his teaching that we have in scripture and in the surviving writings of the church fathers is explicit, so we expect and we receive the enlightenment of Tradition progressively. As individuals we also receive God's teaching progressively as we grow in understanding of the revelation that God gives to us in scripture and in the teaching of the Church.So those "never believed it" must have their reasons for not believing "it" but I cannot say what those reasons are all I can say is that I think those reasons are mistaken. I confess that I do believe it because the Church teaches it.
So, what patristic evidence do we have that certain dogmas of the Roman Church, such as the Vatican I definition of papal supremacy, have "always been believed in the Church"? Since the desire for "evidence from Patristics" is the very subject of this thread, maybe you should limit your argument to this rather than give us your own personal interpretation of Tradition.
Briefly, the documents produced by the Catholic Church as part of a definition of dogma include patristic quotes that lead to the content of the dogma that is being proclaimed. You can find the decrees of the Western councils here.
montalban, saint John Chrysostom is not the only early church father referenced in post #6.
Perhaps formulating an argument is too much of a strain upon you.
No, that is not a problem for me.
Even that assertion of yours has no evidence!Please provide some. I addressed point by point the quotes made by John Chrysostomon. You ignored this, urging me instead to read more quotes someone else cited.That's not even YOUR argument you wish me to engage in!
Isn't there a separate thread for this? ....
Contrast that quote with (post-schism) Pope Gregory VII's statement in 1073 A.D."The Roman pontiff alone is rightly to be called universal."It seems that post-schism Popes have taken on a considerably different perspective than the pre-schism Popes before them who upheld Orthodox doctrine.
Alliteration aside I was curious if someone (the Catholics if possible) could provide me with some quotes or writing from the pre-schism patristics which show the that bishop or Rome was instituted with universal jurisdiction over the whole universal church.
I think the case for the Romans is strongest from what the patriarchs did not say. The pope of Rome acted as if he had more power than the eastern sees, even from the beginning. If the eastern sees had problems with this, why aren't there not more quotes from them stating as much? That's the question. These debates are centuries old and will never be answered absolutely with logic because it has to answered by faith. Who has the authority? Once that is answered, you can choose your church more easily. Otherwise, you'll be stuck in these circular arguments forever. Human sin has greatly clouded the issues. As a maturing catholic, I see these barriers as opportunities for charity, as opposed to the traditional response: bloodshed and sin. What is the point in being able to define the doctrine of the trinty with great sophistication, if you lack charity and thus offend the trinity?
Yours and buzuxi's post makes my point. Even though the east knew that Rome thought itself superior early on, even though you claim this is erroneous, the east tolerated that for many centuries until geo-political reasons made breaking with Rome finanicially favorable. This is not right. If Rome's view of herself was hereitcal from early on, the east should of corrected that before say the 800s. The fact that it did not is the problem. The silence and obedience from the east towards Rome for centuries, even if you say that they should of corrected Rome's view of herself early on, contributed to the belief that Rome has universal juridiction. The famous quotes from the eastern fathers supporting this view should also have been corrected as well at the time when they spoke for the same reasons. The famous quotes now either have to thrown out as forgeries, or interpreted to the point of obvious twisting of words, that is, in order to suppor eastern views. Why werent they fixed at the time? Obviously Rome was wrong from the begging, according to eastern views?
Umm... yes... the silence of the East in regards your heretical Pope Honorius I was resounding... .
Wasnt that in regard to a private letter never taught openly by the See of Rome? We were talking about when Rome thought herself suprimeme and the east went along and did not protest for centuries...your counter point doesn't fit.
I thought Asteriktos made it very clear that the East did see Rome consider herself supreme only to be ignored completely the same Eastern Church. They never went along with it, they went against it consistently.
I dont see that being the case. Pope Leo wanted to hold the Fourth council in Rome, he was rejected. The fact that the Alexandrian see held a council which condemned Pope Leo shows there was no primacy seen. It does not matter that it turned out to be a false council, the fact that it took place is the point. Pope Vigilius supported the Three Chapters, he was rejected at the fifth council. At that time a portion of the west, went into schism and broke with Rome which lasted centuries, proving that the west also did not see any primacy in Rome neither.
^ Missed by about 100 years...and has the wrong council.
I know this is beating a dead horse into the ground, but also keep in mind that even if a pope was heretical in his personal views, if the See of Rome never taught the heresy officially and openly, then it never fell into heresy. This is how infalibilty and pope work: the pope in conjunction with the See of Rome declaring matters of faith or morals.
I can only hear the groans of the venerable Orthodox Latin popes as they read that Frankish propaganda. It recalls my reading of the election of new popes (found somewhere on newadvent) where it states that the College of Cardinals do not chose the universal ruler of the Church, but only the bishop of Rome who ASSUMES universal jurisdiction by being a successor to Peter's throne. What double-talk. It neatly (they think) gets around the problem that until the RCC created counter-churches in the east and outright altar-to-alter Orthodox clones, eastern bishops had no say in electing the so-called "universal pontiff". Yep, another dead horse.
Maybe this is what your getting at:Dioscorus I of Alexandria is considered a saint by the Coptic, Syriac, and other Oriental Orthodoxy churches. He is considered a heretic by the Orthodox Church, though some commentators like Anatolius and John S. Romanides think that Dioscorus was not deposed at Chalcedon (451) because of the faith, but for his grave administrative errors at the Robber Council of Ephesus (449), which included restoring Eutyches the heretic and the attack on Flavian, and because he (Dioscorus) had excommunicated Pope Leo of Rome, and also because at Chalcedon he refused to appear in front of the Council although he was summoned to it three times.http://18.104.22.168/search?q=cache:NN8iz4KmfjwJ:orthodoxwiki.org/Dioscorus_of_Alexandria+Alexandrian+condemned+Pope+Leo&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us
Pope Leo originally wanted the council of Chalcedon to be held in Rome at a later date, his request was turned down.
The robber-council of Florence excommuniated Pope Leo (yes, under Dioscorus). If Pope Leo held Papal supremacy then a patriarch of lower ranking would never of attempted such a thing.
In the 5th Ecumenical Council Pope Vigilius was condemned for supporting the 3 chapters. He repented shortly after, and this caused a schism with the churches of northern Italy which lasted over a hundred years. From this the bishop of Aquilieia severed ties with Rome (along with other territories) and Aqulieia became a Patriarchate under bishop Macedonius. This proves that the west saw no papal supremacy in the See of Rome.
For the record, I believe that a close study of the events surrounding Chalcedon show that Pope Leo was trying to assert some sort of supreme authority, but that the reactions of the emperor and other patriarchs and bishops show that such authority was not recognized in the East.
For the record, I believe that a close study of the events surrounding Chalcedon show that Pope Leo was trying to assert some sort of supreme authority, but that the reactions of the emperor and other patriarchs and bishops show that such authority was not recognized in the East.
Aside from Pope Dioscoros' refusal at Ephesus II to kowtow to Pope Leo and accept his Tome, you have the participants of Chalcedon also refusing to accept the Tome without first examining it and questioning it. When the legates from Rome came to Chalcedon, they wanted everyone to just accept the Tome without question. The fact that it was written and being submitted by Pope Leo was supposed to be enough for everyone to just embrace it without even first examining it. The fact that the other bishops refused to do that and insisted on first examining it shows that they, like Pope Dioscoros, did not recognize this sort of supremacy on the part of Pope Leo.
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