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Chatlog 2009-03-26
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12:52:38 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #xhtml 12:52:38 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-irc 12:52:45 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #xhtml 12:52:52 <Steven> rrsagent, make log public 12:53:06 <Steven> Meeting: XHTML2 WG Virtual FtF 12:53:13 <Steven> Chair: Roland 12:54:47 <Steven> zakim, room for 8 at 13:00z for 240 mins? 12:54:49 <Zakim> ok, Steven; conference Team_(xhtml)13:00Z scheduled with code 26634 (CONF4) at 13:00z for 240 minutes until 1700Z; however, please note that capacity is now overbooked 12:55:00 <Roland> Roland has joined #xhtml 12:55:39 <oedipus> agenda: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2009-03-10-FtF-Agenda#2009-03-26 12:55:51 <oedipus> scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita 12:55:57 <oedipus> ScribeNick: oedipus 12:56:03 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes 12:56:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 12:56:10 <Steven> code is CONF4 12:56:24 <Steven> 26634 12:56:36 <Steven> Steven has changed the topic to: Code is CONF4 (26634) 12:56:59 <Zakim> Team_(xhtml)13:00Z has now started 12:57:01 <Zakim> +Roland_Merrick 12:57:17 <Roland> Zakim, Roland_Merrick is Roland 12:57:17 <Zakim> +Roland; got it 12:57:33 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita 12:57:35 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita 12:57:35 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita 12:58:17 <mgylling> mgylling has joined #xhtml 12:59:40 <Zakim> + +46.7.06.02.aaaa 12:59:58 <oedipus> previous: http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-xhtml-minutes.html 13:00:10 <oedipus> zakim, aaaa is Markus 13:00:10 <Zakim> +Markus; got it 13:00:16 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes 13:00:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 13:00:30 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617 13:00:30 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made 13:00:32 <Zakim> +Steven 13:01:40 <oedipus> TOPIC: Agenda Review 13:01:56 <Roland> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2009-03-10-FtF-Agenda#2009-03-26 13:02:40 <oedipus> 4 XHTML2 items: the P content model, Navigation (nl in or out?), Semantics and Elements versus Attributes, how to incorportate ITS 13:02:55 <oedipus> RM: start with news from the A.C. meeting once reach critical mass 13:03:08 <alessio> alessio has joined #xhtml 13:03:16 <oedipus> SP: would very much like to report, but want shane and mark to be here when i do 13:03:57 <oedipus> RM: brief update on PER 13:04:20 <oedipus> zakim, who is here? 13:04:20 <Zakim> On the phone I see Roland, Gregory_Rosmaita, Markus, Steven 13:04:21 <Zakim> On IRC I see alessio, mgylling, Roland, Zakim, RRSAgent, Steven, oedipus, trackbot 13:05:33 <Zakim> +??P17 13:05:41 <oedipus> MG: Shane said he'd be late yesterday 13:05:48 <oedipus> zakim, ??P17 is Alessio 13:05:48 <Zakim> +Alessio; got it 13:05:49 <alessio> zakim, ??P17 is Alessio 13:05:49 <Zakim> I already had ??P17 as Alessio, alessio 13:06:17 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes 13:06:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 13:06:53 <oedipus> scribe's note: [steven ping outliers] 13:07:43 <oedipus> minutes from last regularly scheduled meeting: http://www.w3.org/2009/03/25-xhtml-minutes.html 13:08:06 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes 13:08:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 13:08:46 <oedipus> RM: brief update with PER? 13:08:50 <oedipus> TOPIC: PER Update 13:09:34 <oedipus> SP: didn't make friday deadline due to AC meetings; have to get fiinished; still moritorium this week on publishing due to AC meeting, should be published next week, if all goes according to plan 13:09:45 <oedipus> RM: just matter of questoinnaires? 13:10:21 <oedipus> SP: PER has to be voted upon; extra administrivia - creating detailed questionnaires with pointers (creating now - have to go out simultaneously with PER anouncement) 13:10:26 <oedipus> RM: that's all we need do? 13:10:28 <oedipus> SP: yes 13:10:37 <oedipus> RM: any other administrivia? 13:10:57 <oedipus> scribe's note: deafining silence 13:12:27 <oedipus> GJR: in response to feedback and discussion at last virtual f2f i have updated the "for" attribute proposal 13:12:28 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements/forAttribute 13:12:37 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #xhtml 13:13:11 <oedipus> GJR: changes: proposed for Text Attributes collection, not Core collection 13:14:10 <oedipus> 1. That the for/id mechanism, which is already broadly supported in user agents and assistive technologies, be repurposed and extended in XHTML2 to provide explicit bindings between labelling text and the object or objects that text labels; 13:14:10 <oedipus> 2. That the for/id mechanism serve as a means of re-using values for: ABBR, D (the single letter "dialogue" element), DFN; 13:14:10 <oedipus> 3. That the for/id mechanism serve as a means of binding a quotation, contained in the Q element, and a corresponding CITE declaration which identifies the source of the quote; 13:14:11 <oedipus> 4. That the for/id mechanism serve as a means of marking text which has been inserted, contained in an INS, and that which it is intended to replace, contained in a DEL tag, as illustrated below; 13:14:13 <Zakim> +McCarron 13:14:21 <ShaneM> zakim, McCarron is ShaneM 13:14:21 <Zakim> +ShaneM; got it 13:14:37 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes 13:14:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 13:15:18 <oedipus> TOPIC: News & Notes - AC Meeting Report 13:15:32 <oedipus> SP: much of AC meeting, but not all, in sphere of HTML5 and XHTML2 13:16:40 <oedipus> SP: started monday morning with panel - XHTML2 side represented by myself and ben adida (made cross-continental day trip); neutral people: Larry McMaster from Adobe; and HTML5 people represented mainly by David Baron 13:17:19 <oedipus> SP: nothing much to report about it; Hegeret was chair; put questions to panel; people in audience put questions as well -- no demos, just Q&A 13:17:24 <oedipus> RM: link to AC minutes? 13:17:58 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2009/03/23-ac-minutes.html 13:18:07 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2009/03/23-ac-minutes#item02 13:18:09 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2009/03/22-ac-minutes 13:18:13 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2009/03/24-ac-minutes 13:19:21 <oedipus> SP: Chaals McN web standards oriented; Larry MM neutral; Sam Ruby co-chair of HTML WG; David Baron works for Mozilla, very much HTML5er; Henry Thompson, Ben Adida and myself (Steven Pemberton) 13:19:57 <oedipus> SP: at least 2 negative comments from audience: Daniel Glazman (not there physically but on IRC) - very anti-XHTML2 13:21:01 <oedipus> SP: Arun (represents mozilla) - need to ask why against XHTML2 in W3C? don't think mozilla is anti-XHTML2, but hard to separate personal opinions from corporate agendas; aim is to close down XHTML2 13:21:21 <oedipus> SP: good feedback after panel; lots of red herrings being spread in discussion; tried to expose falicies 13:21:40 <oedipus> SP: after that meeting had breakout groups - about 20 in XHTML2 breakout group 13:22:13 <oedipus> SP: not minuted in IRC, hand-made minutes - trying to find if up in w3c space yet 13:23:02 <oedipus> SP: 2 breakout groups: 1st day: discuss issues (extended panel) - on second day, discussion on what to do with situation 13:23:51 <oedipus> SP: second breakout more interesting; discussion unencumbered by knowledge of what XHTML2 is all about; Raman and Charlie Wiecha of IBM knes about XHTML2, but rest of participants very shallow knowledge 13:24:22 <Tina> Tina has joined #xhtml 13:24:25 <oedipus> SP: asked who is using 2 technologies; one person said, "since HTML5 seeks to make all pages conformant to HTML5, HTML5 is what people use 13:24:44 <oedipus> SP: explained modularization and the packaging of modules to create XHTML2 13:25:10 <oedipus> SP: because our charter has always been modularization, modules are deliverables; XHTML2 is a collectoin 13:25:39 <oedipus> SP: Arun surprised that there are big companies using XHTML and XForms 13:26:11 <oedipus> SP: meeting concluded with agreement that Sam Ruby and Steven Pemberton should work on merging HTML5 and XHTML2 13:26:52 <oedipus> SP: made it very clear in meeting that these aren't 2 slightly different markup languages, because underlying MVC architecture in XHTML2, that is laacking in HTMl5; would have to get HTML5 WG to accept that architecture so 2 can be merged 13:27:11 <oedipus> q+ 13:28:24 <oedipus> SP: if choice between merging and not merging, think should keep separate unless agree to accept XForms and extensibility 13:29:57 <oedipus> SP: SamR and i can discuss to ascertain options 13:30:08 <oedipus> SP: in conclusion, think that we are now in stronger position 13:30:44 <oedipus> SP: 2 things can happen: HTML5 people reject collaboration or we do merge and HTML5 people required to take our approaches on board (m12n, MVC, etc.) 13:30:56 <oedipus> SP: either of those 2 choices much better than shutting down XHTML2 13:31:03 <oedipus> q? 13:31:22 <oedipus> SP: SamRuby is new co-chair of HTML5 - very positive interaction with him 13:31:52 <oedipus> SP: Sam Ruby wants to work together, but a lot of work to herd that enourmous herd of cats in HTML WG 13:32:33 <oedipus> SP: doubt that core HTML5 people will accept collaboration 13:32:41 <ShaneM> zakim, code? 13:32:41 <Zakim> the conference code is 26634 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), ShaneM 13:33:08 <oedipus> GJR: did sam mention the initative at mozilla to produce a rival spec to HTML5? 13:33:08 <oedipus> http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.platform/browse_thread/thread/0c2bbb6ed726800b 13:33:08 <oedipus> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=478665 13:34:14 <Zakim> +??P15 13:34:28 <oedipus> RM: take more stable to have third version of HTML5 13:34:47 <oedipus> RM: pragmatic - how to achieve a deliverable 13:34:51 <Tina> Zakim, P15 is Tina 13:34:51 <Zakim> sorry, Tina, I do not recognize a party named 'P15' 13:34:55 <oedipus> SP: wasn't mentioned 13:35:04 <oedipus> zakim, +??P15 is Tina 13:35:04 <Zakim> sorry, oedipus, I do not recognize a party named '+??P15' 13:35:09 <oedipus> zakim, ??P15 is Tina 13:35:09 <Zakim> +Tina; got it 13:35:14 <Tina> Thank ye 13:35:16 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes 13:35:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 13:35:19 <Tina> Zakim, mute me 13:35:19 <Zakim> Tina should now be muted 13:35:54 <oedipus> GJR: previous pointers: Rob Sayre of IBM is producing a new draft which is hixie's draft minus new inventions plus all the stuff that was removed 13:36:18 <oedipus> RM: will be taking features from HTML5 spec and adding them on; means of incrementally deploying HTML5 13:36:19 <Steven> http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-TBPekxc1dLNy5DOloPfzVvFIVOWMB0li?p=978 13:36:26 <oedipus> GJR: being deployed by fiat now 13:36:29 <Tina> Zakim, unmute me 13:36:29 <Zakim> Tina should no longer be muted 13:36:41 <oedipus> SM: more socially acceptable 13:37:11 <oedipus> RM: extensibility already being done by implementation by fiat of HTML5 13:37:31 <oedipus> SP: one discussion at AC meeting in first day's breakout group was lack of extensibility 13:37:48 <oedipus> SP: consensus of breakout group was extensibility needs to be supported 13:37:51 <oedipus> q+ 13:38:01 <oedipus> SP: from POV of merging, extensibility essential 13:38:14 <oedipus> SP: long discussions about extensibility and what needs to be able to be done 13:38:30 <oedipus> SM: agreed upon definition of term "extensibility"? 13:39:23 <oedipus> SP: no definition or agreement on what would fall under rubric of extensibility; put forward strong view that people should be able to add own elements and attributes in standard way to foster new forms; cited XBL as example 13:39:34 <oedipus> SP: when i trace minutes for breakout groups will post link 13:39:38 <oedipus> ack oed 13:40:14 <oedipus> GJR: from WAI/PF's point of view extensibility and namespacing is essential, otherwise we will end up with ARIA 1.0 hard coded into HTML5, but we are already working on ARIA 2.0 13:41:05 <oedipus> GJR: WAI/PF needs to retain control over ARIA's vocabulary and definitions 13:41:22 <oedipus> SP: some people surprised that ARIA sprang from XHTML Role Module 13:41:54 <oedipus> SP: good to have BenA there on first day; would be wrong to give XML serialization to a group of people who fundamentally oppose and disllike XML/XHTML 13:41:59 <Zakim> -ShaneM 13:42:10 <oedipus> s/would be/Ben stated that it would be/ 13:42:13 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes 13:42:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 13:42:29 <oedipus> RM: return to this later - have a few comments 13:42:46 <oedipus> SP: worth watching discussion on AC forum; have to be on AC to contribute 13:43:03 <oedipus> GJR: one could always use www-archive for comments pointed at AC 13:43:25 <oedipus> SP: encouraged by meeting; interested in how the rest of the HTML WG responds to combining 2 groups 13:43:34 <oedipus> RM: should consider ramifications for XHTML 13:43:58 <oedipus> SP: LarryMM suggested i co-chair with Sam - not feasible 13:46:46 <Zakim> +ShaneM 13:46:56 <Steven> s/not feasible/not my idea of fun at the moment :-)/ 13:46:57 <oedipus> RM: first 2 topics also being worked on by HTML5 13:47:07 <oedipus> TOPIC: The P content model 13:47:13 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Jan/0014.html 13:47:28 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/34257/ac2009-breakout1/results 13:47:32 <oedipus> RM: HTML5 doing much of what we are doing with P - placing limitations on it 13:47:54 <Tina> Zakim, mute me 13:47:54 <Zakim> Tina should now be muted 13:47:57 <oedipus> SP: pasted pointer to breakout session described above into IRC 13:48:07 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #xhtml 13:48:19 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/34257/ac2009-breakout2/results 13:48:23 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes 13:48:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 13:48:38 <oedipus> SP: day 2 hasn't been posted yet - Sam Ruby making minutes 13:49:25 <Zakim> -ShaneM 13:49:48 <Zakim> +ShaneM 13:50:03 <oedipus> TH (from cited post): "I would argue that common concept of a paragraph is quite different 13:50:03 <oedipus> from that we currently use in the XHTML draft, and that we should 13:50:03 <oedipus> change it so that it reflect the way a paragraph is normally understood 13:50:03 <oedipus> by authors, namely the way it is currently defined in the XHTML 1.* 13:50:03 <oedipus> series languages." 13:50:47 <oedipus> TH (via post): "Note that I do not in any way claim there are no need to render, for instance, a paragraph on the side of, or even around, a table. What I am saying is that the structure of a paragraph does not admit itself to contain a table, a pre, or even a blockquote. A list is an edge case, but should we allow this I suggest the creation of an inline list element type." 13:51:06 <oedipus> RM: P content model as defined in present draft cause anyone a problem 13:51:38 <oedipus> SP: background: when originally designing text part of XHTML2, had a number of comments about the P content model not matching what perception of P is 13:52:12 <oedipus> SP: P defined in HTML4x too simple - could not embed images or table in paragraph; request was for things embedded in P be part of content model 13:52:50 <oedipus> SP: current content model of P is an attempt to do that - represent as much as possible the context of the paragraph, but also attempt to avoid P nested in P - P nested in TABLE cannot have child P 13:53:15 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml2-20090205/mod-structural.html#edef_structural_p 13:53:46 <oedipus> from current Editor's draft: "In comparison with earlier versions of HTML, where a paragraph could only contain inline text, XHTML2's paragraphs represent the concept of a paragraph, and so may contain lists, blockquotes, pre's and tables as well as inline text. Note however that they may not contain directly nested p elements." 13:53:52 <Steven> (PCDATA | Text | List | blockcode | blockquote | pre | table )* 13:54:20 <oedipus> GJR notes he has proposal to deprecate TABLE for layout/style as BLOCKQUOTE for that use was deprecated in HTML4x 13:55:22 <oedipus> SP: always been opinion of this WG; don't explicitly say "deprecated", but agree that TABLEs are TABLEs and stylesheets should be used for layout 13:55:51 <oedipus> SP: proposed TABLE role="presentation" doesn't undo the damage, in fact almost encourages it 13:55:59 <oedipus> GJR: strong agreement - wrong approach 13:56:17 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Jan/0014.html 13:57:19 <oedipus> AC: no presentation - OBJECT should be used to embed video, audio, or presentation 13:57:42 <oedipus> AC: more like a user-modality for TABLE - agree with SP and GJR that layout tables should be banned 13:59:36 <oedipus> SP: understand TH's point of view - current model allows one to represent data in that way; there are also those who belive that a P can have an embeded table or list - content doesn't change because child of P - styling up to stylesheets; neither POV is disallowed - accomodates both- up to author to decide what to use 13:59:49 <oedipus> TH (from post) "But frankly I feel we have a problem. When humans communicate we do so by agreeing on the of words - and various other things outside the scope of this comment - so that when I say banana, you know its not an orange of which I speak." 14:00:12 <ShaneM> zakim, who is here 14:00:12 <Zakim> ShaneM, you need to end that query with '?' 14:00:16 <ShaneM> zakim, who is here? 14:00:16 <Zakim> On the phone I see Roland, Gregory_Rosmaita, Markus, Steven, Alessio, Tina (muted), ShaneM 14:00:18 <Zakim> On IRC I see ShaneM, Tina, alessio, mgylling, Roland, Zakim, RRSAgent, Steven, oedipus, trackbot 14:00:25 <oedipus> tina? 14:00:29 <Tina> I am, but noise in office 14:00:44 <oedipus> tina, can you explain your proposed changes to P content model 14:00:57 <Tina> oedipus: certainly. We keep the one currently in use for HTML. 14:01:12 <oedipus> RM: would like more examples - if want P element with example and discussion of this issue - could do this way (compatible with past) or new way 14:01:37 <oedipus> SP: TH wants to exclude people who believe P is something different than what she is proposing 14:01:53 <oedipus> RM: irritating when have to change prose into a list 14:02:25 <oedipus> RM: if write normal english: ingredients are: a) , b), c), but cannot style as list because is prose list 14:02:33 <oedipus> RM: that is standard natural language usage 14:03:10 <Roland> ingredients are: a; b; c. 14:03:14 <oedipus> s/a) , b), c), / a) ; b) ; c);/ 14:03:19 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes 14:03:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 14:03:32 <oedipus> SP: including a list in P is perfectly valid 14:03:39 <oedipus> RM: examples would help 14:04:24 <oedipus> SP: opened a book "a case in point is blogs:" followed by list of 10 items; i content that in natural language usage that is a single paragraph, but HTML doesn't allow the list to be part of the P 14:04:46 <oedipus> GJR: agree - whether list is prose or formatted as list, belongs to the P and should be inside the P 14:04:53 <alessio> +1 14:04:56 <Tina> A suggestion, as quoted from me, above would be to allow lists - possibly inline lists - but exclude other use. 14:05:05 <oedipus> RM: alternative: leave as is, insert 2 examples, and note asking for feedback 14:05:46 <oedipus> ACTION - Gregory: draft example of P with prose list and structural list 14:05:46 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - - 14:05:59 <oedipus> ACTION: Gregory - draft example of P with prose list and structural list 14:05:59 <trackbot> Created ACTION-65 - - draft example of P with prose list and structural list [on Gregory Rosmaita - due 2009-04-02]. 14:06:59 <oedipus> tina, could you provide examples of other uses of P? 14:07:16 <oedipus> or a list of what you would exclude from the P content model? 14:07:19 <Tina> No, I don't see any reason to continue the discussion, in particular if we are speaking merging the two WGs - HTML 5 design principles, if memory serve, insist on backward compatibility. Until it decided whether to merge or not the discussion is moot. 14:07:39 <oedipus> RM: only one causing difficulty with P content model is TABLE 14:08:07 <oedipus> RM: list, blockquote, pre and table 14:08:13 <Steven> (PCDATA | Text | List | blockcode | blockquote | pre | table )* 14:08:16 <oedipus> GJR: why blockquote and not blockcode? 14:08:30 <oedipus> SP: blockcode is part of content model 14:08:44 <oedipus> RM: what is normative? DTD or spec? 14:08:51 <oedipus> SM: spec always wins 14:09:03 <oedipus> RM: where spec doesn't include blockcode, bug in DTD 14:09:12 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml2-20090205/mod-structural.html#edef_structural_p 14:09:18 <oedipus> SM: no DTD for XHTML2 14:09:26 <oedipus> SP: not from DTD but modulariztion code 14:09:40 <oedipus> RM: still looking at what we pointed to originally 14:09:48 <oedipus> RM: list, blockquote, pre and TABLE 14:10:00 <oedipus> SP: english text is wrong - should also include blockcode 14:10:19 <oedipus> SP: module text at top is definitive version 14:10:45 <oedipus> RESOLVED: fix XHTML2 prose to include blockcode 14:11:05 <oedipus> SM: shouldn't be in text 14:11:08 <oedipus> SP: plus 1 to that 14:11:20 <oedipus> GJR: following wiser heads like a lemming 14:11:29 <oedipus> SM: no other element describes content model in prose 14:11:47 <oedipus> SP: point of english text is to explain diff between XHTML2's P and earlier versions 14:11:55 <oedipus> RM: simple link-back to definition would help 14:12:09 <oedipus> SP: need to get that automated by shane 14:12:31 <oedipus> SP: spec written as small files - by element or attribute, which then get put together in standard way 14:12:46 <ShaneM> It should read: In comparison with earlier versions of HTML, where a paragraph could only contain inline text, XHTML2's paragraphs represent a richer content model more consistent with the concept of a paragraph. 14:13:02 <oedipus> GJR: plus 1 to shane's proposal 14:13:18 <oedipus> RM: talk about attributes, but not content model 14:13:39 <oedipus> SM: talk about content model elsewhere - may need to reinforce in this module because so large 14:14:03 <oedipus> SM: proposed text 14:14:31 <oedipus> SP: is example of P with embedded UL in it 14:15:00 <oedipus> RM: in contrast to what was done in previous versions P /P UL /UL rather than P UL /UL /P 14:15:13 <oedipus> SM: mistake for us to include references as to how things used to be 14:15:35 <oedipus> RM: alternative today - P can contain lists; put side-by-side explaining can do either of these 14:15:36 <oedipus> SM: ok 14:16:58 <oedipus> proposed RESOLUTION: "In comparison with earlier versions of HTML, where a paragraph could only contain inline text, XHTML2's paragraphs represent a richer content model more consistent with the concept of a paragraph" 14:17:18 <oedipus> RM: not sure need "more consistent" clause 14:17:27 <oedipus> proposed RESOLUTION: "In comparison with earlier versions of HTML, where a paragraph could only contain inline text, XHTML2's paragraphs represent a richer content model consistent with the concept of a paragraph" 14:18:02 <oedipus> RM: richer content model of paragraph should be sufficient 14:18:16 <oedipus> proposed RESOLUTION: "In comparison with earlier versions of HTML, where a paragraph could only contain inline text, XHTML2's paragraphs represent a richer content model. 14:18:59 <oedipus> RESOLVED: replace current explanation of P content model with "In comparison with earlier versions of HTML, where a paragraph could only contain inline text, XHTML2's paragraphs represent a richer content model." 14:19:18 <oedipus> TEN MINUTE BREAK - RECONVENE AT HALF-PAST HOUR 14:19:21 <Zakim> -Steven 14:19:22 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes 14:19:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 14:19:26 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita 14:19:28 <Zakim> -Tina 14:19:29 <oedipus> rrsagent, stop log 14:19:29 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'stop log', oedipus. Try /msg RRSAgent help 14:19:31 <oedipus> rrsagent, stop 14:32:28 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita 14:32:59 <oedipus> TOPIC: Navigation 14:33:12 <oedipus> question: Do we really need four different types of lists in XHTML 2.0? 14:33:14 <alessio> zakim, code? 14:33:14 <Zakim> the conference code is 26634 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), alessio 14:33:21 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2008May/0005.html 14:33:21 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Nov/0015.html 14:33:22 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617 14:33:23 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made 14:33:25 <Zakim> +Steven 14:33:35 <Zakim> +[IPcaller] 14:33:43 <alessio> zakim, IPcaller is Alessio 14:33:43 <Zakim> +Alessio; got it 14:33:50 <oedipus> zakim, who is here? 14:33:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see Roland, Steven, Markus, Gregory_Rosmaita, Alessio 14:33:51 <Zakim> On IRC I see ShaneM, Tina, alessio, mgylling, Roland, Zakim, RRSAgent, Steven, oedipus, trackbot 14:33:59 <Tina> oedipus: an exaggeration, surely. 14:34:31 <Zakim> +ShaneM 14:34:38 <Tina> My 2 whatsits: yes. We DO need a rich set of lists for various structures that needs to be marked up. I would propose we add an inline-list to the ones we have, plus, of course, a 'menu' or 'navigation' 14:35:01 <oedipus> current editor's draft definition of NL: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml2-20090205/mod-list.html#edef_list_nl 14:35:12 <oedipus> RM: do we need 4 kinds of list? 14:35:40 <oedipus> RM: discussed - fairly broad concept; item about elements versus attributes topic is related 14:35:45 <oedipus> RM: why did we create NL? 14:36:11 <oedipus> SP: in early days, 1 thing we did was observe web sites to identify things on web sites that represented concepts not represented in common HTML markup 14:36:32 <Zakim> -Markus 14:36:56 <oedipus> SP: one thing that we concluded was types of list purely for navigational purposes - semantic advantage (expecially from A11y POV) advantageous; developed before developed Role and RDFa 14:37:14 <oedipus> SP: new markup allows NL without new type of element] 14:37:27 <oedipus> SP: instead of NL, UL role="navigation" 14:37:54 <oedipus> RM: device independence group worked on this; large areas of page - are areas devoted to navigation 14:38:05 <Tina> OL, not UL. This is still a rather dramatic conceptual change. Why would we want to do that - and, on the flipside, not then simply have ONE list? 14:38:06 <oedipus> RM: not catered for inside markup; navigation is important property 14:38:08 <Zakim> +Markus 14:38:20 <mgylling> mgylling has joined #xhtml 14:38:23 <oedipus> RM: difference from my POV is navigation is more than list 14:38:50 <oedipus> RM: HTML5 has NAVIGATION element - useful notion: can be more to navigation than items; headings (primary navigation, secondary navigation) 14:39:05 <oedipus> RM: would like to reframe converstation from NL to NAVIGATION section 14:39:14 <Roland> HTML5 : http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/semantics.html#the-nav-element 14:39:20 <ShaneM> I agree with Steven that @role can be used to indicate that a section is related to navigation. 14:40:06 <oedipus> SP: definitely case that had proposal on table for NL but didn't find consensus in WG; made general decision to use elements for structuring and attributes for semantics; helps us fulfil many requests; if request is for semantics, answer should be use RDFa or Role and leave elements for marking up strcuture 14:40:13 <oedipus> RM: felt navigation was structure 14:40:31 <ShaneM> <section role="navigation">...</section> 14:40:34 <oedipus> SP: use SECTION role="navigation" is equivalent 14:40:53 <oedipus> SP: could also use UL role="navigation" or OL role="navigation" 14:41:05 <oedipus> SP: can be done by attaching role to SECTION or directly to list 14:41:11 <Tina> Have we agreed to leave *all* semantics to RDFa and @role? 14:41:29 <ShaneM> Tina: No, I don't think so. 14:41:36 <oedipus> RM: OL role="navigation" equals SECTION role="navigation" 14:42:14 <oedipus> SP: MarkB would say NL wrong because makes list with specific semantic meaning; sturcture is ordered list and structure is navigation; if want section on navigation, use SECTION role="navigation" 14:42:22 <Tina> ShaneM: that begs the question - which semantics do we leave to elements? We already have three different list types. If they are there for structure only, then why don't we simplify and make one? 14:42:46 <oedipus> SM: context - state of art when introduced NL in visual user agent wasn't possible without heavy scripting; but today, that can be achieved with CSS 14:42:51 <oedipus> SM: throw out NL 14:42:54 <oedipus> SP: can live with that 14:42:57 <oedipus> AC: me too 14:42:59 <oedipus> GJR: me too 14:43:03 <mgylling> +1 14:43:05 <ShaneM> Note that @role already has a predefined value for "navigation" 14:43:18 <oedipus> RM: would prefer a NAV element rather than just list 14:43:56 <oedipus> RM: no element whose specific role is navigation, can be satisfied by assigning role to other structural elements 14:44:37 <oedipus> SP: kept a lot of elements that aren't strictly necessary because of use-and-practice with list 14:44:46 <oedipus> SM: extended content model for DL by adding DI 14:44:51 <oedipus> SM: very positive move 14:45:14 <oedipus> SM: can't decide if TH making serious point or playing devil's advocate 14:45:16 <Steven> zakim, who is on the phone? 14:45:16 <Zakim> On the phone I see Roland, Steven, Gregory_Rosmaita, Alessio, ShaneM, Markus 14:45:18 <oedipus> zakim, who is here? 14:45:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see Roland, Steven, Gregory_Rosmaita, Alessio, ShaneM, Markus 14:45:21 <Zakim> On IRC I see mgylling, ShaneM, Tina, alessio, Roland, Zakim, RRSAgent, Steven, oedipus, trackbot 14:46:04 <oedipus> SM: appreciate that there is a significant presentational and semantic difference between OL, UL, and DL - DT and DD need to be grouped in order to make sense 14:46:19 <oedipus> SM: don't think a lot of value removing things people are already familiar with 14:46:31 <Tina> It is a serious point in so far as we need to be consistent in where we leave semantic interpretation on element types, and where we move it to roles. Right now the draft is a little bit of this and a little bit of both. If we say that "The markup is for structure" as a general rule then we need only one list structure and extended @role values. 14:46:46 <oedipus> SM: does beg the question: "does it make sense for us to do things in language that we know will not work right in existing UAs?" 14:47:00 <oedipus> RM: not on agenda, but could discuss when return to HTML5 discussion 14:47:16 <oedipus> RM: making incremental changes that make it hard to deploy - is it worth return on investment 14:47:29 <oedipus> RM: do we need to introduce DI type of thing to discuss later 14:47:35 <oedipus> RM: concrete example? 14:47:35 <Tina> Since we are already changing or removing things people are already familiar with. Consistency is key. 14:47:45 <oedipus> SP: resolution to remove NL? 14:48:02 <oedipus> proposed RESOLUTION: remove NL from XHTML2's List Module 14:48:08 <oedipus> RM: propose we remove NL 14:48:12 <Steven> and replace with use of @role="navigation" 14:48:20 <oedipus> GJR: plus 1 with SP's caveat 14:48:26 <Steven> as necessary 14:48:53 <oedipus> SM: we created "navigation" role 14:49:15 <oedipus> proposed RESOLUTION: remove NL from XHTML2's List Module and replace with use of role="navigation" 14:49:29 <oedipus> SP: current model for DL wouldn't break existing user agents 14:49:38 <Steven> I think 14:49:44 <oedipus> GJR: agree with SP - will make DL stronger and more useful 14:49:44 <Steven> +1 14:49:47 <Steven> on resolution 14:49:53 <mgylling> +1 14:49:54 <oedipus> proposed RESOLUTION: remove NL from XHTML2's List Module and replace with use of role="navigation" 14:49:59 <oedipus> plus 1 14:50:05 <ShaneM> Tina: I think there is a (new) trend toward NOT removing things that people are familiar with.http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab/ 14:50:09 <ShaneM> oops... http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab/ 14:50:51 <oedipus> definition of navigation from vocab document: "navigation indicates a collection of items suitable for navigating the document or related documents." 14:51:35 <oedipus> RM: seem to have gotten a bit mixed up - talking about multiple things 14:51:40 <oedipus> RM: resolution to remove NL 14:51:44 <oedipus> proposed RESOLUTION: remove NL from XHTML2's List Module and replace with use of role="navigation" 14:51:52 <ShaneM> +1 14:51:52 <Roland> +1 14:51:54 <Steven> +1 14:51:55 <alessio> +1 14:52:00 <oedipus> RESOLVED: remove NL from XHTML2's List Module and replace with use of role="navigation" 14:52:04 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes 14:52:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 14:52:16 <ShaneM> ACTION: Shane to remove the nl element from XHTML 2 14:52:16 <trackbot> Created ACTION-66 - Remove the nl element from XHTML 2 [on Shane McCarron - due 2009-04-02]. 14:52:46 <oedipus> SM: one related item is DL 14:52:53 <oedipus> SP: changes won't change deployment 14:52:58 <oedipus> SM: DI would be ignored? 14:53:04 <oedipus> MG: DI is optional 14:53:16 <oedipus> GJR: provides nice low-grade binding for DDs 14:53:35 <oedipus> RM: DI introduced to solve what particular problem? 14:53:55 <oedipus> "Definition lists vary only slightly from other types of lists in that list items consist of two parts: a term and a description. The term is given by the dt element. The description is given with a dd element. The term and its definition can be grouped within a di element to help clarify the relationship between a term and its definition(s)." 14:54:53 <mgylling> ... di solves a problem that could also be solved with @for... 14:55:30 <oedipus> SP: if 2 things are related, DI can express that; presentation: hard to put border around DT and DD; from semantic POV want them to be joined at head and not hip 14:55:47 <oedipus> markus, do you have more to say on "for" 14:56:09 <oedipus> RM: like paragraph - if don't want to use DI, don't have to 14:56:13 <mgylling> no - I am all for DI. 14:56:18 <oedipus> good 14:56:32 <oedipus> RM: any other potential pitfalls with lists? 14:57:05 <oedipus> SM: added in list module the caption element and hooked into content model for all lists 14:57:07 <ShaneM> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml2-20090205/mod-list.html#s_listmodule 14:57:08 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml2-20090205/mod-list.html 14:57:22 <oedipus> RM: lists allow caption 14:57:33 <oedipus> GJR: might want to consider LEGEND 14:59:12 <Steven> We need to consider the purposes of LEGEND LABEL and CAPTION 14:59:21 <oedipus> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/TextAlternativeExamples 14:59:22 <Steven> and work out whether to merge 14:59:42 <alessio> yes, it's a very good point 15:00:09 <oedipus> SM: haven't addressed use of XForms inline content with other forms of inline content 15:00:23 <oedipus> Use of FIGURE, LEGEND, and @alt 15:00:23 <oedipus> Three Stages of A Butterfly's Life Example 15:00:23 <oedipus> Each of the images in the 3 stages of a butterfly's life REQUIRE alt text and/or labelledby to provide them with unique and appropriate short descriptions, just as each form control in a FIELDSET has its own LABEL defined for it, with the value of the LEGEND element providing a CAPTION-like function for the FIELDSET, so too does LEGEND provide a means of declaratively marking explicit bindings of groups of related objects, as in: 15:00:30 <oedipus> <FIGURE aria-labelledby="l1"> 15:00:30 <oedipus> <LEGEND id="l1">The Three Stages of a Butterfly's Life Cycle</LEGEND> 15:00:30 <oedipus> <IMG alt="Stage 1: The larval stage." src="butterfly1.svg" 15:00:30 <oedipus> longdesc="butterfly1.html"> 15:00:30 <oedipus> <IMG alt="Stage 2: The pupal stage." src="butterfly2.svg" 15:00:33 <oedipus> longdesc="butterfly2.html"> 15:00:35 <oedipus> <IMG alt="Stage 3: The adult stage." src="butterfly3.svg" 15:00:36 <oedipus> longdesc="butterfly3.html"> 15:00:39 <oedipus> </FIGURE> 15:00:41 <oedipus> the LEGEND applies to all three images as a collection of related objects, available, for example, in a screen reader situation, either through a verbosity setting or via an extended query, such as MagicKey+TAB reads the alt text of the individual graphic which has focus, MagicKey+TAB pressed twice rapidly (or with a moderator key) provides the user with the LEGEND which describes, tersely, the group to which the individual image belongs, so that the user can b 15:00:47 <oedipus> a) each individual image's short alternative text; 15:00:48 <oedipus> b) the grouping to which the image belongs (if it is one of a series presented in a FIGURE) or any other modality-specific content contained in HTML5's media-specific elements, including AUDIO, VIDEO, OBJECT and CANVAS; 15:01:03 <oedipus> TOPIC: Supplemental Document - Best Practices Guide? 15:01:51 <oedipus> RM: need to orient readers and contextualize use of XHTML2 to alter content and improve usability of content - how to pull pieces of m12n together 15:02:39 <oedipus> GJR: i will send "thoughts on LEGEND" used in PF deliberations over terse descriptors in HTML5 to XHTML2 list 15:02:57 <oedipus> RM: like examples - pick up as a template and build upon it 15:03:33 <oedipus> RM: christina once worked on something similar, but we haven't undertaken anything as a WG 15:03:38 <oedipus> SP: no, we haven't really 15:03:58 <oedipus> RM: continuing developing document, steven? 15:04:01 <Roland> Roland has left #xhtml 15:04:14 <oedipus> SP: received a lot of feedback at AC meeting on how should be structured 15:04:21 <Roland> Roland has joined #xhtml 15:04:26 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes 15:04:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 15:04:31 <Steven> s/feedback/input/ 15:05:06 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes 15:05:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 15:05:30 <oedipus> TOPIC: how to incorporate ITS 15:05:36 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Dec/0023.html 15:05:36 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/tracker/actions/28 15:05:52 <oedipus> SM: does anyone understand the ITS question? 15:06:34 <oedipus> SP: background: googletranslate - when automatically translates page, ITS helps markup page to assist process; when i say "window" don't translate because is technical term; 15:07:01 <oedipus> SP: semantic markup with specific domain: meaning of words with respect to other languages 15:07:17 <mgylling> http://www.w3.org/TR/its/ 15:07:36 <oedipus> RM: who is driving this request 15:07:41 <oedipus> SP: i18n 15:08:15 <Steven> Then from there, run batch file <cmd 15:08:15 <Steven> its:translate="no">Build.bat</cmd>.</p> 15:08:29 <oedipus> MG: investigated ITS - 3 options to introduce rules into document - inline (similar to @style), xlink to external document, or put info in HEAD 15:08:44 <oedipus> MG: not just question of attribute, but should we support XLINK in HEAD, etc. 15:08:54 <oedipus> RM: can link to ITS definition, full stop 15:08:57 <oedipus> SM: not an option 15:09:05 <oedipus> SP: wouldn't let us do that? 15:09:22 <oedipus> SM: our architecture doesn't allow for arbitrary content models; need to specificy what goes where 15:09:56 <oedipus> SM: ITS was on rec track; asked us to do LC review; we said fine, but forgot M12n; listened to us and produced modules and went to REC 15:10:30 <oedipus> SM: should we incorporate into XHTML 1.2 - no, but i was given action item to put into XHTML2 - too many options, need to pick one 15:10:43 <oedipus> SM: should ask ITS WG how to use ITS in our module 15:10:48 <oedipus> RM: ITS WG closed 15:10:56 <oedipus> RM: ITS interest group still active 15:11:10 <oedipus> RM: should ping them to ask "how do you think this applies to us?" 15:11:24 <oedipus> SP: created something similar to CSS - create rules in HEAD or inline 15:11:50 <oedipus> SP: a lot of their stuff we have anyway - don't need @dir because took from us and put in their namespace 15:12:06 <oedipus> GJR: notes that this is a good trend - similar to timesheets 15:12:34 <oedipus> SP: translate rules - include their rules into HEAD and then in BODY only thing that is left is translate equals yes or no 15:12:53 <oedipus> MG: correct; have schema modules for ITS we can import 15:13:02 <oedipus> MG: external sheets via XLink 15:13:15 <oedipus> MG: should ask if can use LINK element instead 15:13:19 <oedipus> RM: sounds reasonable 15:13:52 <oedipus> SP: invite someone from ITS to join us on a call to discuss 15:14:06 <oedipus> GJR: sounds reasonable 15:14:17 <oedipus> SP: should be able to find someone courtesy of RichardI 15:14:47 <oedipus> ACTION: Steven - talk to Richard to ask if someone from ITS can join an XHTML2 call to discuss this further 15:14:47 <trackbot> Created ACTION-67 - - talk to Richard to ask if someone from ITS can join an XHTML2 call to discuss this further [on Steven Pemberton - due 2009-04-02]. 15:15:00 <oedipus> RM: is anyone recognizing ITS? 15:15:12 <oedipus> SP: if no one is producing content with it answer is no 15:15:26 <oedipus> RM: are we the best people to bootstrap this? 15:15:48 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/International/its/tests/its2xquery 15:16:00 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/ImpReport 15:16:10 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/International/its/tests/ 15:17:28 <oedipus> SM: should be bending over backwards to reuse W3C technologies and standards 15:17:52 <oedipus> GJR: first principle of WCAG - if pertinent technology exists (such as MathML) use it 15:18:01 <Steven> r12a suggests �10 �01yves savourel �01chair of the former WG 15:18:02 <oedipus> RM: doesn't sound too onerous 15:18:07 <Steven> and cc to Felix of W3C 15:18:47 <oedipus> RM: don't need its prefix, just "yes" or "no" 15:18:55 <oedipus> SM: does spec allow chameleon? 15:19:38 <oedipus> MG: published note on how to incorporate ITS into XHTML family 15:19:57 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/ImpReport#conftype1 15:20:10 <Steven> ysavourel at translate.com 15:20:14 <oedipus> processing expections for ITS: http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/ImpReport#conftype2 15:20:25 <Roland> http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-i18n-bp/#its-plus-xhtml10 15:20:46 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3331#c8 15:20:55 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/International/its/techniques/its-techniques.html#integration-its-xhtmlmod 15:21:12 <oedipus> "Three such markup schemes are described in section ITS Applied to Existing Formats of the latest public Working Draft of Best Practices for XML Internationalization: ITS and TEI, ITS and XHTML 1.0, and ITS and XML Spec. In response to comment Please use XHTML Modularization for defining ITS DTD and Schema, the Working Group has defined an ITS module for XHTML, using the XHTML modularization framework." 15:21:27 <oedipus> MG: roland's pointer the one i was thinking about 15:21:35 <oedipus> SM: last one GJR put in is what i was looking at 15:21:53 <oedipus> RM: XHTML M12n 1.1 - http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-i18n-bp/#its-plus-xhtml10 15:22:45 <oedipus> SM: our treatment of schema allows us to bring in elements and attributes from other namespaces; don't have to include in our namespace if already exists elsewhere and is in use 15:23:40 <oedipus> "1) ITS and TEI: ITS rules is allowed to appear in the TEI metadata section (the teiHeader). The local ITS attributes are added to the global attribute set for all elements. ITS span is added to the content pattern model.common (most inline contexts)." 15:23:40 <oedipus> "2) ITS and XHTML 1.0: ITS rules is allowed to appear in the XHTML head element (the group HeadOpts.mix has been redefined accordingly). The local ITS attributes are added to the global attribute set for all elements (the group Common.attrib has been redefined accordingly). Ruby is not used since the ruby specification already defines an XHTML module for ruby." 15:23:40 <oedipus> "3) ITS and XML Spec: ITS rules is allowed to appear in the XML Spec header element (rules has been added as the last element to the XML Spec entity header.mdl). The local ITS attributes are added to the global attribute set for all elements (they have been added to the entity common.att). ITS ruby is allowed to appear as an inline element (it has been added to the entity p.pcd.mix)." 15:26:18 <oedipus> SP: reading from spec: "one way to associate document with external ITS rules is to use optional XLINK" 15:27:16 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/tracker/actions/28 15:27:41 <Steven> so it sounds optional 15:27:49 <oedipus> SM: questions we have: don't support XLink, so can we use LINK? leave in ITS space and use their suggested model? 15:28:23 <oedipus> SM: inclination is to invite someone to discuss XLink - for content model, take what proposed for XHTML 1.1 leave in ITS namespace and do what they said 15:28:57 <oedipus> proposed RESOLVED: XHTML2 WG will discuss ITS integration and use of LINK versus XLink with representative from i18n 15:29:06 <oedipus> RESOLVED: XHTML2 WG will discuss ITS integration and use of LINK versus XLink with representative from i18n 15:29:10 <oedipus> SP: already invited them 15:29:12 <oedipus> SM: thank you 15:29:21 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes 15:29:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 15:29:38 <oedipus> RM: anything else on ITS? 15:30:18 <oedipus> TOPIC: Clearing Out Old Action Items 15:30:24 <oedipus> RM: quantity values question 15:31:24 <oedipus> SP: when we have href type and src type which allows one to define what values are suitable; in HTML4 have type on HREF - comment that says what is on other end - just a claim, not firm basis for content negotiation 15:31:40 <oedipus> SP: in XHTML2 have list of types used for content negotiation 15:32:27 <oedipus> SP: comment that don't take into account QValues 15:32:53 <oedipus> SP: been boning up on QValues 15:33:28 <oedipus> RM: should add to traker 15:33:36 <oedipus> s/traker/tracker 15:34:34 <oedipus> SP: if say "here is an image" may be in 10 diff formats, but want SVG or PNG to be first choice, if user agent can't handle SVG or PNG, have to provide something UA says can accept 15:35:14 <oedipus> SP: answer may be no qvalues in source 15:35:19 <oedipus> SM: think that is the answer 15:35:38 <oedipus> SM: QValue responsibility of UA; intersection of what UA wants and what author can offer 15:35:55 <oedipus> s/what UA wants/what UA can handle/ 15:36:10 <oedipus> SP: order of things in specification important - take first or highest q? 15:36:33 <oedipus> SP: when UA specifies what is willing to accept does it mean willing to accept them equally 15:36:38 <oedipus> SM: have to check HTTP spec 15:36:48 <oedipus> SM: order is probably significant - will check 15:38:10 <Steven> ACTION: Steven to work out how to merge q values in the specification of content negotiation with hreftype etc. 15:38:10 <trackbot> Created ACTION-68 - Work out how to merge q values in the specification of content negotiation with hreftype etc. [on Steven Pemberton - due 2009-04-02]. 15:38:52 <oedipus> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/XHTML-2.0?user=guest;statetype=-1;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 15:39:26 <oedipus> RM: work through 16 open issues on shane's tracker? 15:39:28 <oedipus> SM: not now 15:39:31 <oedipus> RM: when? 15:39:46 <oedipus> SM: not sure what to do with 5 year old comments 15:39:54 <oedipus> RM: are any of the issues still relevant? 15:40:22 <oedipus> RM: how to deal with them? 15:40:35 <oedipus> GJR: port them to W3C tracker and close those that are moot? 15:41:11 <oedipus> "QNames are the way that the working group, and indeed the W3C, handle having 15:41:11 <oedipus> data that comes from differing sources. The working group is not willing to 15:41:11 <oedipus> change course at this time 15:41:32 <oedipus> SM: http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/XHTML-2.0?id=7659;user=guest;statetype=-1;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 needs to be split up 15:41:37 <oedipus> SP: some just comments 15:41:46 <oedipus> SP: several of these things don't need to do 15:41:58 <oedipus> SP: can answer, but no action necessary 15:42:07 <oedipus> SP: real issues: keep BR (which i think we do) 15:42:15 <oedipus> SM: were instructed by TBL to keep BR 15:42:32 <oedipus> SP: a lot of editorial comments 15:43:03 <Tina> What is the structural purpose of BR? That should be the only reason why we keep it or toss it. 15:43:42 <Tina> Yes. What's our use case for keeping it? 15:43:49 <oedipus> SP: could say that WG received this remark and is not required to answer; get input from more recent suggestions 15:44:35 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita 15:44:45 <Tina> Then I suggest we get rid of BR as more-or-less physical markup. 15:44:57 <Zakim> -Steven 15:45:52 <Zakim> -Alessio 15:46:16 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita 15:46:45 <oedipus> tina, do you want to work on a proposal to eliminate BR? 15:47:06 <oedipus> deprecate in favor of use of L ... /L 15:48:18 <oedipus> anne van k on L: "Didn't BLOCKCODE preserve whitespace by default? What do we need the L 15:48:18 <oedipus> element for here? And as mentioned before, BR is still needed. I also 15:48:18 <oedipus> think that a better use case for L should be presented, this one is bad." 15:48:28 <Tina> oedipus, I don't have the time to write up anything formal, I'm afraid. 15:48:44 <oedipus> me neither, but i might as well take a whack at it right now 15:50:44 <oedipus> GJR's take: BR is a presentational concept; to express that a line of content is intended to be interpreted as single line of content, authors should use the L element to mark the beginning and end of a line. 15:50:51 <oedipus> zakim, who is here? 15:50:52 <Zakim> On the phone I see Roland, ShaneM, Markus, Gregory_Rosmaita 15:50:55 <Zakim> On IRC I see Roland, mgylling, ShaneM, Tina, alessio, Zakim, RRSAgent, Steven, oedipus, trackbot 15:51:48 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617 15:51:48 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made 15:51:50 <Zakim> +Steven 15:51:56 <oedipus> RM: keep differences from status-quo to a minimum - makes easier to deploy in existing browsers 15:52:27 <Tina> oedipus: I agree with that. 15:52:36 <oedipus> SM: "1.1.2. Backwards compatibility 15:52:50 <oedipus> SM: will update as appropriate 15:53:00 <oedipus> SM: 1.1.2. Backwards compatibility 15:53:06 <Tina> We are already deviating from that, however, by changing content models. Removing presentational markup is surely a good idea. 15:53:14 <oedipus> SM: wants BR back; instructed to do it, but haven't done it 15:53:16 <oedipus> q+ 15:53:22 <oedipus> GJR's take: BR is a presentational concept; to express that a line of content is intended to be interpreted as single line of content, authors should use the L element to mark the beginning and end of a line. 15:53:53 <oedipus> SM: agree 15:54:31 <oedipus> RM: back to pragmatic - authors need to understand what to do - how much benefit from being purists, how much from being practical - can we live with either or 15:54:48 <oedipus> SP: can live with keeping it, but with a note stating that L is preferred method 15:54:59 <oedipus> ack oe 15:55:03 <ShaneM> ACTION: Shane to put br element back into XHTML 2 with a note that there are better ways to mark up lines. 15:55:03 <trackbot> Created ACTION-69 - Put br element back into XHTML 2 with a note that there are better ways to mark up lines. [on Shane McCarron - due 2009-04-02]. 15:55:20 <oedipus> proposed Resolution: restore BR 15:55:25 <oedipus> SP: objections? 15:55:27 <oedipus> GJR: object 15:55:42 <oedipus> SP: if objections, don't have resolution 15:56:48 <oedipus> RM: GJR, do you believe we should not do this? 15:57:23 <Zakim> +??P3 15:57:29 <alessio> zakim, ??P3 is Alessio 15:57:29 <Zakim> +Alessio; got it 15:57:32 <oedipus> GJR: willing to compromise on BR if we add note on use of L 15:58:00 <Tina> I see no good reason to put a presentational element back in. This isn't as much about pragmatic solutions - CSS can do the visual if need be. 15:58:08 <oedipus> GJR: is there any override mechanism for BR? 15:58:23 <oedipus> SP: compromise: include BR but mark as deprecated 15:58:25 <oedipus> GJR: yes 15:58:40 <ShaneM> deprecated? in a legacy br module? 15:58:52 <oedipus> proposed RESOLUTION: re-introduce BR, marking as deprecated, and point out that for accessibility, is much better to use L 15:59:02 <Steven> +1 15:59:07 <ShaneM> +1 15:59:07 <oedipus> GJR: plus 1 15:59:16 <oedipus> AC: yes 15:59:18 <Roland> +1 15:59:19 <mgylling> +1 15:59:21 <alessio> +1 15:59:27 <oedipus> RESOLVED: re-introduce BR, marking as deprecated, and point out that for accessibility, is much better to use L 15:59:33 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes 15:59:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 16:01:37 <oedipus> RM: next one is ADDRESS element 16:02:01 <oedipus> SM: request is make content model for address richer, or introduce a BLOCKADDRESS element 16:02:12 <oedipus> GJR: isn't this covered by role="contentinfo" 16:02:39 <oedipus> vocab doc: " 16:02:39 <oedipus> contentinfo has meta information about the content on the page or the page as a whole. 16:03:01 <Steven> By the way, there is a new rrsagent in the works: http://www.w3.org/2009/CommonScribe 16:03:13 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml2-20090205/mod-structural.html#edef_structural_address 16:03:31 <oedipus> SM: not inclined to change from block to inline or to add blockaddress 16:03:41 <oedipus> SP: non-structural element that only adds semantic information 16:03:56 <oedipus> SP: semantic info is terribly vague - can't extract much sensible out of ADDRESS 16:04:15 <oedipus> RM: HTML5's ADDRESS is not block 16:04:55 <oedipus> SM: problem is content model restricted; 16:05:09 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/semantics.html#the-address-element 16:05:38 <oedipus> 'The address element represents the contact information for the section it applies to. If it applies to the body element, then it instead applies to the document as a whole" 16:06:07 <Tina> That does appear fairly clear, if not detailed. What is the use case for changing it? 16:06:15 <oedipus> "The address element must not contain information other than contact information." 16:06:27 <ShaneM> Tina: the request is to make the content model richer 16:07:02 <oedipus> GJR: HTML5 Address is a child of FOOTER 16:07:07 <Tina> If so, do we need to change the element or simply add other elements which go inside it that allows an author to define up the various pieces? 16:07:09 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/semantics.html#the-footer-element 16:07:51 <oedipus> GJR: address is part of FOOTER, but restricted to contact info onlly 16:07:58 <oedipus> s/onlly/only 16:08:05 <oedipus> GJR: in HTML5 16:08:29 <ShaneM> Tina: I think we just could make the content model richer. 16:09:07 <oedipus> Content model for FOOTER in HTML5: "Flow content, but with no heading content descendants, no sectioning content descendants, and no footer element descendants." 16:09:45 <oedipus> SM: either add blockaddress or fix rich content model 16:09:56 <oedipus> SM: objections to making content model of ADDRESS richer? 16:10:01 <oedipus> SM: need to define "richer" 16:10:11 <oedipus> SM: same as SECTION 16:10:13 <Tina> ShaneM: not a bad idea. We can keep ADDRESS, then add various elements for marking up specific sections of contact info. Or rely on namespaces for people to use elements from other XMLs. 16:10:21 <oedipus> RM: why not say SECTION role="address" 16:10:54 <oedipus> SP: on other hand, could just say ADDRESS is shorthand for SECTION role="address" 16:11:08 <oedipus> RM: no difference in semantics for ADDRESS and SECTION role="address" 16:11:17 <oedipus> RM: need to define semantics of ADDRESS 16:11:47 <oedipus> SM: DIV role="p" is not a substitute for using P - if element has semantics, use the element 16:12:27 <oedipus> SM: have ADDRESS element - could say "if need area of document with richer content model and address information, use SECTION role="address" 16:12:35 <oedipus> RM: no existing "address" role 16:13:06 <oedipus> GJR: when we did ARIA/HTML5 analysis decided that "contentinfo" more broad than HTML's ADDRESS 16:13:27 <oedipus> SM: defer to dublin core or VCard? 16:13:45 <Tina> Suggestion: keep <address> as is, and encourage authors to use other markup languages for the specifics. 16:13:52 <oedipus> SM: vocab collection for role is missing fundamental concepts - is that because we are deferring to DC 16:13:59 <oedipus> SP: do in RDFa instead of role 16:14:20 <oedipus> RM: on typical page, navigation area, content area, contact area very common - address related to contact info 16:14:29 <oedipus> SM: dublin core values we can use for that 16:14:42 <oedipus> RM: broke up page into appendix, content, copyright, etc. 16:15:02 <oedipus> SM: can add a role 16:15:35 <alessio> agree 16:15:38 <oedipus> RM: can state "not changed from HTML4; if want richer mechanism, create it according to the markup family's extension rules 16:15:49 <oedipus> SM: probably way to group all of this together 16:16:03 <oedipus> SM: should we introduce additional role values 16:16:05 <oedipus> GJR: yes 16:16:08 <oedipus> SP: good point 16:16:31 <oedipus> GJR: would like to differentiate between explanatory note and referential note 16:16:58 <oedipus> SM: in existing vocabulary 16:17:32 <oedipus> from vocab document: note: "note indicates the content is parenthetic or ancillary to the main content of the resource." 16:18:06 <oedipus> GJR: there are 2 types of note: referential (citation, endnote) and annotative (what the vocab doc says) 16:18:27 <oedipus> SP: resolution? 16:18:51 <ShaneM> Tina: I think that is where we are ending up. Thanks! 16:18:52 <oedipus> RM: leave address as-is, if want to create richer structures for that information, use SECTION 16:19:40 <oedipus> proposed RESOLUTION: leave ADDRESS as-is, add note that if author wants to create richer structures for that information, author can do so following langauge's extension mechanism (e.g. use SECTION) 16:20:04 <alessio> +1 16:20:07 <ShaneM> +1 16:20:09 <oedipus> proposed RESOLVED: leave ADDRESS as-is, add note that if author wants to create richer structures for that information, author can do so following langauge's extension mechanism, e.g. use SECTION 16:20:13 <Roland> +1 16:20:23 <oedipus> RESOLVED: leave ADDRESS as-is, add note that if author wants to create richer structures for that information, author can do so following langauge's extension mechanism, e.g. use SECTION 16:20:36 <oedipus> SM: need to discuss additional role values - add to next f2f agenda 16:20:41 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes 16:20:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 16:21:16 <oedipus> SM: heading element - "confusing" - example of use of both 16:21:27 <oedipus> SM: think addressed this by moving things around in document 16:21:45 <oedipus> SM: anne objects to P element content model that allows some block-level elements to be mixed in 16:22:12 <oedipus> GJR: reminder earlier RESOLUTION: replace current explanation of P content model with "In comparison with earlier versions of HTML, where a paragraph could only contain inline text, XHTML2's paragraphs represent a richer content model." 16:22:21 <oedipus> SM: PRE element comments 16:22:32 <oedipus> SM: changed example 16:22:46 <oedipus> GJR: PRE is a problem for accessibility 16:23:01 <oedipus> RM: editorial comment 16:23:19 <oedipus> SM: separator element - 16:23:44 <oedipus> SP: TBL has affection for HR 16:23:57 <Steven> unexplained affection 16:24:04 <Tina> Do we need HR when we have SECTION? 16:24:08 <oedipus> "There isn't mentioned a single use case. Only some presentational issues 16:24:08 <oedipus> that should be kept in CSS as mentioned in 1.1.1. Right?" 16:24:17 <Steven> no TIna, we don't 16:24:31 <oedipus> SM: don't understand point of comment 16:24:47 <oedipus> GJR: hell, lets deprecate all BLOCK* elements in favor of CSS 16:25:16 <oedipus> SM: lets disucss separator 16:25:43 <oedipus> SM: TBL has affection for HR - does that mean need HR deprecated in favor of SEPARATOR? 16:25:59 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml2-20090205/mod-structural.html#edef_structural_separator 16:26:35 <oedipus> SP: from fundamental point of view, solves problems with HR - found use cases for separator, could do with SECTION, but SEPARATOR is useful markup 16:27:13 <oedipus> SP: problem with HR - presentational; rather than introduce VR, use SEPARATOR 16:27:40 <oedipus> RM: should say HR has no semantic meaning but is shorthand for SEPARATOR 16:28:12 <oedipus> proposal: rename SEPARATOR to HR and add note: "there is nothing horizontal or presentational implied by HR" 16:28:22 <oedipus> SP: first element not related to concept 16:28:49 <oedipus> RM: should be there for legacy, but if starting afresh use SEPARATOR 16:29:22 <oedipus> SP: reason for caring is that saying that won't change ingrained understanding of HR no matter what we say 16:29:41 <oedipus> RM: how do languages that want VR handle HR? 16:29:43 <Zakim> -Markus 16:30:15 <oedipus> SP: maybe HR only works horizontally and are using borders on DIV for visually approximations of vertical rules 16:30:27 <oedipus> SP: i18n complaint still valid 16:30:28 <Zakim> +Markus 16:30:44 <oedipus> RM: only if say HR has semantic meaning other than as shorthand for SEPARATOR 16:31:29 <oedipus> SP: have to provide standard stylesheet for XHTML2 - have to provide default style for SECTION, H, etc. 16:31:50 <oedipus> SM: don't think SEPARATOR an HR 16:32:02 <oedipus> SM: HR is a styled line running horizontally across page 16:32:26 <oedipus> SM: separator is semantic indication that one part of document different from another - can be reflected in style rules or not 16:33:06 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/semantics.html#the-hr-element 16:33:22 <oedipus> HTML5: "The hr element represents a paragraph-level thematic break, e.g. a scene change in a story, or a transition to another topic within a section of a reference book." 16:33:48 <oedipus> RM: suggest we move on for now 16:34:26 <oedipus> "Contexts in which this element may be used: Where flow content is expected." 16:35:06 <oedipus> SM: next comment: ABBR should use something other than @title - we do, so that is moot 16:35:12 <oedipus> SM: next comment: CITE element 16:35:28 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements/CITE_and_cite 16:36:09 <oedipus> "Precis: In XHTML2, any element may have a href attribute. Since href is global, would it not be logical to mandate use of the href attribute in those circumstances where the cite attribute is currently used: as a consistent means of pointing at a resource, thereby providing the author with a linking mechanism that endows the user with the possibility of reviewing the quote in context. Therefore, it is proposed that the cite attribute be redefined to contain hu 16:37:20 <oedipus> <section role="main"> 16:37:20 <oedipus> <q for="fdr3i" 16:37:20 <oedipus> href="http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/exegesis/fdr-third-inaugural.html#fdr3ip36s1" 16:37:20 <oedipus> cite="Franklin Delano Roosevelt: Third Innaugural Address; January 20, 1941" 16:37:20 <oedipus> >In the face of great perils never before encountered, our strong 16:37:21 <oedipus> purpose is to protect and to perpetuate the integrity of democracy. 16:37:23 <oedipus> </q> 16:37:24 <oedipus> <!-- ... --> 16:37:26 <oedipus> </section> 16:37:28 <oedipus> <section role="secondary"> 16:37:31 <oedipus> <h id="biblio">Bibliography</h> 16:37:33 <oedipus> <ol> 16:37:34 <oedipus> <li role="contentinfo"><cite id="fdr3i" 16:37:36 <oedipus> src="http://www.fdrpapers.gov/fdr3i.html" 16:37:39 <oedipus> >Roosevelt, Franklin Delano. Third Inaugural Address. Delivered 16:37:40 <oedipus> before a joint session of congress, January 20, 1941. (official 16:37:42 <oedipus> White House transcript)</li> 16:37:44 <oedipus> </ol> 16:37:46 <oedipus> <!-- ... --> 16:37:49 <oedipus> </section> 16:37:59 <oedipus> GJR: Finally, a for/id relationship between the Q element and the CITE element, which allows the author to bind individual quotes to a common source. 16:38:28 <Steven> I think this is another element rendered unecessary by rdfa 16:38:34 <oedipus> GJR: should be able to point to CITE element with for/id relationship 16:38:37 <Steven> s/une/unne/ 16:38:59 <oedipus> GJR: if @cite is retained should be for human processing 16:39:18 <oedipus> SM: disagree 16:39:42 <oedipus> SM: src is used to identify external source that is only read-in; href is used for hyperlink; cite is something else 16:40:04 <oedipus> SM: in current XHTML2 @cite is an @href that is actionable through an alternate method 16:40:19 <oedipus> GJR: a quote is embedded content 16:40:41 <Steven> I think it is actually equivalent to rel="cite" href="...." 16:40:52 <ShaneM> <quote src="someURI" /> 16:41:01 <alessio> yep 16:41:11 <oedipus> SM: @src brings in a URI and replaces Q 16:41:47 <oedipus> GJR: "Since href is global, would it not be logical to mandate use of the href attribute in those circumstances where the cite attribute is currently used: as a consistent means of pointing at a resource, thereby providing the author with a linking mechanism that endows the user with the possibility of reviewing the quote in context. Therefore, it is proposed that the cite attribute be redefined to contain human parseable information -- such as the source of a 16:43:12 <oedipus> GJR: "Likewise, the globally available src attribute should be applied explicitly to the CITE element, so that an author can point to a standardized external reference profile for the resource encased in the CITE element. Finally, a for/id relationship between the Q element and the CITE element, which allows the author to bind individual quotes to a common source. " 16:43:40 <oedipus> SM: @cite is legacy - existed in HTML4; has different semantic than @href 16:43:48 <oedipus> SM: drop @src 16:43:58 <oedipus> SM: @href and @cite similar 16:44:07 <oedipus> SM: not sure how dovetails with RDFa 16:44:32 <oedipus> SM: arguable that @cite is something RDFa should process but didn't define rules for that 16:45:09 <oedipus> GJR: @href for Q points to content in context; @src for Q points to source of quote 16:45:13 <oedipus> SM: rel="cite" 16:45:32 <oedipus> s/SM: rel="cite"/SP: rel="cite" 16:45:39 <oedipus> SM: will bring up in RDFa telecon 16:47:21 <oedipus> "Currently, asssistive technologies are capable of speaking the contents of the cite attribute when one is reading a quote or blockquote and has quote identification turned on; however, the utility of a URL to provide context and continuity are exceedingly limited -- a URI should be the course of last resort. An example has been set by assistive technologies' handling of images: if no alt try title if no title, use the src value. For cite attribute, the cascade 16:47:55 <oedipus> cite in HTML4x http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/text.html#edef-CITE 16:48:04 <oedipus> RM: are we done with AVK's comment on cite? 16:48:08 <oedipus> SM: fixed examples 16:48:18 <oedipus> SM: KBD element 16:48:34 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml2-20090205/mod-text.html#edef_text_kbd 16:49:08 <oedipus> current XHTML2 wording: "The kbd element indicates input to be entered by the user." 16:49:21 <oedipus> SM: response: not in our scope 16:49:24 <oedipus> RM: agree 16:49:27 <oedipus> SP: agree 16:49:30 <oedipus> GJR: agree 16:49:31 <alessio> agree 16:49:36 <Zakim> -Steven 16:49:53 <oedipus> SM: AVK's next comment - use case for L is bad and doesn't BLOCKCODE preserve whitespace 16:49:56 <Steven> sorry, dropped the phone, just a moment 16:50:09 <oedipus> GJR: BLOCKCODE versus PRE 16:50:11 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617 16:50:11 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made 16:50:13 <Zakim> +Steven 16:51:33 <oedipus> GJR: PRE literally as-is 16:51:52 <oedipus> GJR: BLOCKCODE can signal to assistive tech to respect and count whitespace 16:52:19 <oedipus> SM: BLOCKCODE doesn't preserve whitespace - layout attribute is irrelevant 16:52:48 <oedipus> GJR: point simply that whitespace is extremely hard to communicate to a non-visual user 16:53:19 <oedipus> GJR: python examples should be in BLOCKQUODE rather than PRE 16:53:38 <oedipus> s/BLOCKQUODE/BLOCKCODE 16:53:45 <oedipus> SM: made note to change example 16:54:04 <oedipus> SM: don't want to loose this thread 16:54:14 <oedipus> GJR: will try and explain more clearly 16:54:35 <oedipus> ACTION: Gregory - send post to list explaining concerns over PRE 16:54:35 <trackbot> Created ACTION-70 - - send post to list explaining concerns over PRE [on Gregory Rosmaita - due 2009-04-02]. 16:55:24 <oedipus> RM: HTML5 backtracked on Q to HTML2 16:55:38 <oedipus> SM: comment "why should be done in text and not stylesheet" 16:55:47 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements/Q 16:56:16 <oedipus> GJR: "BLOCKQUOTE is nothing more than a presentational model taken from print conventions, rather than semantic meaning. If Q was ubiquitously implemented, one could use styling rules to create a Q instance with the properties of a block quotation -- that is, as a paragraph indented at least 5em on both left and right margins;" 16:56:33 <oedipus> GJR: favors a SINGLE quote element 16:56:44 <Zakim> -Roland 16:56:59 <oedipus> GJR: BLOCKQUOTE has no semantic meaning -- it is merely one means of many of demarcating any quote an arbitrary number of sentences long. 16:56:59 <oedipus> GJR: a quote is a quote is a quote - how it is demarcated as a quote is a presentational matter; what is important is that the material be logically and consistently marked up, so why have 2 forms of QUOTE, when only one is needed? 16:57:14 <oedipus> SM: next comment - why an A element - answer: backwards compatibility 16:57:23 <oedipus> SM: why can't one use more than one CAPTION in a list? 16:57:33 <oedipus> SP: CAPTION for entire list, not part of it 16:57:37 <oedipus> 26634 16:57:54 <Zakim> +Roland 16:58:23 <oedipus> GJR: so are we in effect setting up a cascade that says CAPTION for whole item, LEGEND for components? 16:58:50 <oedipus> SM: don't have LEGEND element anymore 16:59:10 <oedipus> GJR: i've been working within PF to reuse the LEGEND element in HTML5 16:59:44 <ShaneM> (confirmed - we no longer have a legend element in XHTML 2) 16:59:55 <oedipus> GJR: since XForms carries LABEL, and LEGEND is no longer needed for the FIELDSET model that LEGEND be reused as an organizational grouping desceriptor 17:00:26 <oedipus> RM: labelling a different discussion 17:01:16 <Steven> zakim, status? 17:01:16 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, Steven. 17:01:24 <oedipus> some thoughts on LEGEND: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2009Mar/0015.html 17:01:29 <Steven> zakim, ports? 17:01:29 <Zakim> I see 92 ports in service, 76 ports idle 17:01:48 <oedipus> SM: 10 more items in AVK's list 17:01:56 <oedipus> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/XHTML-2.0 17:02:31 <Zakim> -Steven 17:02:32 <oedipus> RM: next address 13.1 17:02:32 <Zakim> -ShaneM 17:02:33 <Zakim> -Markus 17:02:34 <Zakim> -Roland 17:02:39 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes 17:02:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 17:02:42 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita 17:02:44 <Steven> thanks Gregory!~ 17:02:45 <Zakim> -Alessio 17:02:46 <Zakim> Team_(xhtml)13:00Z has ended 17:02:47 <Zakim> Attendees were Roland, Gregory_Rosmaita, +46.7.06.02.aaaa, Markus, Steven, Alessio, ShaneM, Tina 17:02:50 <oedipus> my pleasure 17:02:55 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes 17:02:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 17:02:59 <oedipus> rrsagent, stop 17:03:53 <oedipus> present- [+46.7.06.02.aaaa] 17:03:59 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes 17:03:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 17:04:18 <oedipus> present- +46.7.06.02.aaaa 17:04:22 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes 17:04:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 17:04:49 <oedipus> rrsagent, stop 17:05:17 <oedipus> ==== ADJOURNED ==== 17:05:25 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes 17:05:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 17:05:28 <oedipus> rrsagent, stop 17:09:34 <oedipus> zakim, please part 17:09:34 <Zakim> Zakim has left #xhtml 17:09:39 <oedipus> rrsagent, stop # SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. DO NOT EDIT THIS LINE OR BELOW. SRCLINESUSED=00000862


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Did you read today's front page stories & breaking news?
From the Blogosphere
Five Tips to Encourage Collaboration | @DevOpsSummit #BI #BPM #DevOps
Collaboration matters, so make it central to your business
By: Larry Alton
Mar. 15, 2017 04:09 PM
Fertile ideas that germinate out of internal collaboration are what will set your company ahead of the competition.
The era of the open-plan office is over, but that doesn't mean collaboration should go by the wayside at your firm. Rather, all professionals need to develop new ways to make our workplace conducive to teamwork, through both the physical and technological structures.
Where should your office start? Whether you're building a space from the ground up or adapting your current office layout, here are five ideas you can put to work in your business.
Chat Smarter
Rather than force your employees to hold every conversation face to face while distracting their colleagues, try implementing office-oriented messaging software. Chat-style messengers enable communication between two or more people in the office without all the oral distraction. That's a win for everyone.
Share Safely
Although a flier design might not be sensitive, the contents of internal reports, client contact and business info, and financial transactions should be thoroughly protected, especially when they change hands.
Feed the Team
Organize your workspace so that food is always available nearby, to encourage employees to linger in kitchens and other shared spaces. Though not every interaction will lead to a revolutionary idea, moments of unplanned exchange and engagement between people who might not otherwise collaborate can occasionally result in unexpected insights. If nothing else, it will surely boost morale.
Set the Stage
You might also consider launching an in-house blog or newsletter where team members may share new developments and ideas, and seek casual feedback.
Lead the Way
Fertile ideas that germinate out of internal collaboration are what will set your company ahead of the competition. But in order to develop teamwork, you need an environment that's amenable to interaction and innovation without being disruptive.
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subset: commoncrawl


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People have dietary restrictions for a number of reasons. Sometimes the reason is medical, other times it's a personal choice, and often it's a combination of the two. Many believe that the food we put into our bodies has a profound effect on our health, wellbeing, and even the presence or absence of disease. Although the surge of nutritional information and dietary advice seems to be a recent trend, the concept that diet can be used to treat or prevent disease is actual quite historical. Hippocrates, the ancient Greek Physician is known for saying, "Let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food".
So, can someone on a restricted diet still be considered a foodie? My answer is, yes! Maybe even more so, as eliminating certain common foods allows for experimentation of foods and food groups that had previously been ignored. For instance, eliminating wheat or gluten may lead one to try alternative grains such as rice, quinoa, or buckwheat. Having tried both wheat-free and gluten-free diets myself, I've found that ditching the bread actually enhances the taste experience. With a bun-less burger, I truly experience all the tastes of the meat and toppings.
Giving up dairy in addition to gluten was more difficult for me, as I love, love, love cheese. Did I mention I like cheese? But I thought this restriction was worth it as part of an anti-inflammatory lifestyle. I still eat eggs (and man do I eat eggs!) but I avoid all animal milk products. Alternatives to dairy that have come to be a regular part of my diet include almond and coconut milk, and dips like hummus, guacamole, and pico de gallo (instead of crackers and cheese).
While restricting certain foods is, indeed, a restriction – it can also expand your palate beyond what you used to eat. If the particular diet is also curative, or at least makes you feel better, then it's a win-win. That is not to say that living with a medically-necessary diet is easy or carefree; in fact, for those who do not have a choice it can be a huge hardship. But I hope that with the increasing awareness of gluten-free and other special diets, alternative food choices become more and more convenient.


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|29th December 2012, 18:06
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 7
Remind me to rate my songs!
This may be better suited to a plugin rather than a feature but here's my problem. I need to rate some 5000 songs. So I bound my star rating buttons to ctrl+1 through 5 and all I have to do is listen to a song and when I decide on a rating I can rate it quickly without leaving whatever else Im doing... if I remember. I que up some songs and suddenly I realize Im 10 songs in and forgot to rate anything. Or if I only que 1 song at a time, I realize the music stopped playing 10 minutes ago and I cant remember what I was listening to to rate it. Yeah, I'm difficult like that. So if I could have one wish, it would be for a feature where if Winamp sees that it's playing an unrated song, when it gets to the last 1 minute of the song, I would get a popup that says "Remember to rate!" and I would say "oh good catch Winamp" and press ctrl+3 and the popup would disappear until next time. But alas, I know nothing about programing. So I thought I would put this out here and someone far smarter than myself might think it was a useful idea and take it up. What do you guys think?
|30th December 2012, 20:05
Forum King
i like it, and i'd use it, but i don't see the official devs doing it.
PENN STATE Radio or http://www.LION-Radio.org/
BUG #1 = Winamp skips short tracks
Wish #1 = Multiple Column Sorting
Wish #2 = Add TCMP/Compilation editing
|30th December 2012, 20:08
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 27,873
and when you don't see the next prompt to rate a file because you've been away for hours? it's be a simple plug-in just doing what's asked for above but would need to somehow queue up things so it doesn't lock up the UI (aka crash everything) and just not keep filling the screen with a mass of prompts (which then have no potential context with the file it related to).
could just use the history feature to see what was last playing and work it out that way.
|30th December 2012, 20:32
Forum King
i don't want to stomp on the OP req, but what i would want is the prompt to come up as he said with a min left, (or half the time if the total time is less than a min, so a 45sec song it would come up at 22seconds) and then if the prompt is not answered, (or dismissed), winamp simply stops. then the user could restart the song, or rate it, or dismiss it, and the playlist starts again.
PENN STATE Radio or http://www.LION-Radio.org/
BUG #1 = Winamp skips short tracks
Wish #1 = Multiple Column Sorting
Wish #2 = Add TCMP/Compilation editing
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Over the past few years PR has fundamentally changed. What was once mainly about brands
Picnics by the motorway, anti-royalist rants, naked ramblers and other reasons to love England
There is an argument that the English are in fact the least nationalistic people on earth. While our Celtic cousins celebrate their saints days with raucous displays of invariably alcohol and food fuelled patriotism, April 23rd St George's day generally passes by with merely a shrug of the shoulders.
We are even slightly embarrassed about our flag too, just ask Emily Thornberry.
But that only tells part of a story and doesn't stop (some of) us loving a country which has given so much to the world over the years (and yes taken it away too).
So today I asked my Facebook pals to come up with a list of what is wonderful about England and being English. I have cut and pasted the list below.
It was simply too good not to share and is for anyone who calls England home.
So Happy St George's Day – personally I don't care about a Turkish dragon fancier, but I can always celebrate Orwell, Harrison and Formby!
All the English things I love: the stones, the kinks, sandwiches, shit weather, kooky fashion, our silly class system, our beautiful gardens, Kate bush, roast dinners, exmoor, Isle of purbeck.
The Beatles, Smiths and Pink Floyd, Suffolk beaches, Cambridgeshire meadows, art deco lidos, our obsession with cycling, the bittersweet nature of a winter in London, Orwell, Patrick Hamilton, Powell & Pressburger, Ealing comedies, understated country Anglican churches and pubs, lots and lots of pubs, oh and the fact that most English people were foreigners at one point too
Greasy spoons, standing stones, bleak moorland, chalky downs, well dressing, cheese rolling, sitting on our coats, picnics in the car, cheering in the pub when someone breaks a glass, dance music in warehouses, beat music in cellars, mushy peas, Aloo Gobi, loving our eccentrics, the naked rambler, the seaside pier, a bag of chips, a pint of bitter, and (despite Nigel Farage) being a country with a proud history (largely hidden) of being progressive and tolerant.
Kate Bush definitely. Northumberland Coast is a largely unknown treasure. Rugby. Shakespeare. Nick Drake. Sand dunes, salty air etc. Panto. English Ale. And definitely the fact that most English people were foreigners at one point too
Lost gloves on walls. Trainers thrown over phone lines. Badly painted numbers on wheelie bins. Zebra crossings. Curry & chips. All items of value have been removed. Picallili. National obsession with potholes. Net curtains. The co-op. Pick n mix. Black pudding. Pantomime. "Fair to middlin'." "Not three bad."
Gripper Stepson, Roland Browning, Zammo on smack
Vaughan Williams
Putting the kettle on when things get stressful
National parks, wooly pom pom hats, sand in your sandwiches, stewed tea in a force 5 looking at the beach, chips in paper, gingham plastic table cloths, kiddies roundabouts, parish councils, playing eye spy….
Lush green hills, valleys and parks, seriously long history, crumbling castles and city walls, being able to walk to your 'local', always time for tea, the changing of seasons, a myriad of regional accents, the BBC, free art galleries and museums, stunning cathedrals, Cath Kidston, proper cider, proper mayonnaise
1- pretty villages
2- cities such as Cambridge which are beautiful and historic
3- a thriving capital – London
4- freedom of speech and belief
5- a rich history
6- cricket
7- cream teas
8- tea!
9-fish and chips, shepherds pie, Sunday roasts
10- classic literature
11- rich music heritage
12- Cadbury's chocolate
13- beautiful places like Cornwall and Lake District
14- national health system
15- educational system from primary to iconic places as Cambridge and \oxford (and i will slip in the boat race there!)
Thanks to Matt Hill, Vic Ruffy, Geoff Crawford and lots of others
Can you help make a very brave girl's dream come true
Pls help, especially if you have connections with EMI, the O2 or Katy Perry's PR.
My youngest daughter Astrid has recently finished her treatment for ALL Leukaemia. Throughout the two and half year period when she was taking chemo everyday, endless operations and hospital stays, one thing that kept her going was the music of her hero Katy Perry. We've got surprise tickets to see KP on Wednesday @ the O2 and it would be Astrids' absolute dream come true to meet her. If there is anything you can do to help make this happen I (and the entire Norris clan) would be unbelievably grateful. Here are some pics of how she was then and how she is now and a video she recently shot about her hospital ward @ Great Ormond Street Hospital Children's Charity Thanks so much for any help at all.
And here is a bit of her story
If you can help email me ashleyatshinymediadotcom
Do brands deliberately mess up on social media? Even Mastercard?
Just a thought after seeing Mastercard's woeful attempt to get journalists going to the Brit awards to tweet in a certain way.
Either it is because they have marketers who are utterly clueless about the way the media and journalists work. This does seem to be happening a lot and some of my more cynical journalist friends believe that it is because there is a generation of marketers who understand how social media works from an operational perspective, but have come from an ad agency background and don't understand the sensibilities of journalists.
In this instance though the culprits were House PR, a well established PR company. UPDATE – apparently another agency handles the press accreditation not House!
Or maybe it is this?
Did you know that Mastercard was sponsoring the BRITS – nope me neither. You do now though. And you can bet that the hash tag #pricelesssurpises is going to be used a lot more now that it would have been had Mastercard not been so cheeky.
As a fellow journalist tweeted – How else would anyone care enough to tweet about the Brits these days?
There are examples of brands who have suffered massively because of this type of of social screw up, but not many. In the short term it might make Mastercard look silly, but when everyone from Mashable to Metro starts writing about it the brand gets a lot of free publicity…
Why do Mars get football so wrong?
Ok, so we can all breath again. Roy Hodgson's team did the business last night and courtesy of a Rooney header and late bit of Stevie G magic I can fantasise that come summer 2014 I'll be watching England in the World Cup final at some lovely new stadium in Rio.
There was however one thing that took my attention away from what was actually a very absorbing (for England) game and that was the rubbish advertising that Mars displayed on the boards around the pitch.
Talk about cringe-worthy! It gave the impression that it was displaying messages from real punters, presumably harvested from Twitter (I think there was hash tag there) cheering England on. Now they might have been real – but the names like Dave C!? were so generic it seemed unlikely.
Even worse was the content of the messages. They were mainly of the trite Good Luck England variety. In fact one was so bad it became etched on my memory – it said 'Qualification is our goal.'
Quite honestly which self-respecting football fan would tweet a Mars hash tag such nonsense. It smacks of something rustled up by a Mars marketing executive who really has absolutely no understanding of football and its culture.
I thought the days of 'dad on the dancefloor' social media approaches from brands were at an end given that we all understand that brands need to be sincere, genuine and authentic these days. It appears not.
BT's content marketing strategy – why it needs a bit of relevancy
What's the first rule of content marketing? Well you could argue that it is 'keep it interesting', or 'don't undermine your brand', I do however think that there might be a case also for 'keeping it relevant' as being the place where brands need to start.
There 's a very interesting post on Mediatel today from Dominic Mills, the one time Campaign editor and now freelance journalist/media strategy guru, that highlights why relevancy is crucial. In it he takes a pop at BT for filling its BT.com website with largely irrelevant content.
Mills says that he went to the site as he moved house and needed to make amendments to his BT account, But he couldn't easily find what he was looking for as the site was chock full of largely irrelevant content from the Press Association.
He says
What I discovered when I logged in – which they insisted on telling me about before I could get to my BT e-mail – is that this involves full-on lifestyle coverage across areas like news, entertainment, technology, fashion and beauty, TV, film, video games, family and home (and on and on and on).
Yes, dear reader, there are approximately 50 of these channels including, believe it or not, motoring and home and garden.
So the big question is: WHY? And that leads to all sorts of other questions you think BT should have asked itself first, such as: why do people go to BT.com? What do they want to achieve as a result of going there? And what makes BT a legitimate or credible provider of this sort of content?
Well I do wonder if BT has fallen into the trap of not really thinking through quite what its users really want to read about. It reminds me of the time a decade and a half ago when BT amongst others, hired hundreds of journalists in a bid to help them become media portals which would rival News International etc. It become obvious very quickly that the net benefit of creating huge amounts of news copy was largely not useful to BT's core business and the company, and indeed many of its ISP rivals, canned their services and shifted away from content.
Now with every Internet consultant worth their salt repeating the mantra that content is king and that it is editorial which keeps consumers amused and engaged BT, among others is heading in the same direction.
It isn't that filling a site with content per se is a bad move – I am sure it has huge SEO benefits for a start, and while you are mulling over your BT Sports subscriptions you might want to read a few football stories. It is just the unimaginative way in which BT has undertaken this. Grabbing a few store from the Press Association along with a few viral videos, hardly makes for a compelling editorial destination. That man on a bike on the M1 story has been everywhere today. If you have looked at a news site you will know all about it.
The content needs to be more relevant too. An intriguing tech channel might be more useful to consumers, and why not get a few high profile journalists and bloggers to deliver interesting opinion pieces which will help engage the company's business customers.
BT also has some the potential to create some compelling content of its own, Surely a look behind the scenes look to see what its boffins are up to in its Suffolk research HQ is worth a hundred celeb stories which could be read elsewhere?
Where brands have succeeded in creating engaging content portals they have done it by delivering content that it relevant to their audience. It helps cement the relationship between the brand and the customer – which really is the main reason why brand undertakes content marketing in the first place.
Maybe BT will evolve a content strategy that is both interesting and innovative as time goes by. Here's hoping.
28 Piano Pieces By Children For Children – unique book raises money for cancer charity
** Update – book now available here from the lovely people at Olive Loves Alfie
New piano pieces by children for children
A new book which features piano pieces composed by children for other children to play will be published at the end of November. 28 Piano Pieces By Children For Children includes compositions from young Londoners, with each of the composers also performing editing tasks such as note checking, adding finger numbers, illustrations, cover design and deciding on which order the pieces should go.
'Children become particularly enthusiastic to sight-read and explore new music when they realise that the pieces have been written by their peer group,' says the book's co-ordinator, Lola Perrin, Composer/ Teacher in Residence at Markson Pianos. She adds, 'The pieces in the book are varied and fun and beautifully illustrated by the composers. We hope other music teachers and their pupils will be inspired by this book to create their own books'.
The book also includes an interview Lola conducted with Peter Vizard who co-ordinates an annual piano festival for young pianists at the Conservatoire Frederic Chopin in Paris.
Profits from the book, which goes on sale on 30 November, will be given to the Leukaemia & Lymphoma Research charity.
The launch date was 30th November 2012. We had a successful private launch, hosted by Markson Pianos, at The Vortex, London. The book is now available to purchase from our exclusive worldwide distributor Olive Loves Alfie.OLIVE LOVES ALFIE
84 Stoke Newington Church St, London N16 0AP | Tel: +44 (0) 20 7241 4212 http://www.olivelovesalfie.co.uk/28-piano-pieces-by-children-for-children.ir?cName=books
£10 + £3 p&p
* How you can support and promote the book:
The book has a Facebook page at
http://www.facebook.com/28PianoPiecesByChildrenForChildren Please like the page and share the content on it.
You can also listen to some of the pieces on the book's Vimeo page here http://vimeo.com/user14484233/videos
* Some information about Leukaemia & Lymphoma Research:
Leukaemia & Lymphoma Research is the only UK charity solely dedicated to research into blood cancers, including leukaemia, lymphoma and myeloma. Our life-saving research is focused on finding causes, improving diagnosis and treatments, and running ground-breaking clinical trials for all blood cancer patients. Blood cancers including leukaemia, lymphoma and myeloma affect people of all ages from babies to grandparents. We need to be sure that we reach all those touched by leukaemia, lymphoma and myeloma and give them the best possible chance of survival.
More information http://leukaemialymphomaresearch.org.uk/
* More about Lola Perrin:
Lola Perrin is a composer, pianist, publisher and contributor to International Piano magazine. She has played live and been interviewed on various radio programmes including Radio 3 In tune, Jazz Line Up, Radio 4 Science Matters and local BBC radio stations. She has performed extensively in the UK in recent years at venues including the Design Museum, London's Jazz Café, Latitude Festival, Henham Park, 2010 and the London Jazz Festival. In 2011 she played a seven date concert series hosted by Markson Pianos dedicated to her eight piano suites. Lola has published eight books of solo piano music. For more details please visit www.lolaperrinsheetmusic.com
Lola Perrin is also Artist in Residence at Naim Audio. For information about the Naim Audio Lola Perrin Piano Competition please visit http://lolaperrinsheetmusic.com/pages/piano-competition.html
Kids piano book raises funds for cancer research facebook.com/28PianoPiecesB… Pls like and reweet thanks
Lola Perrin
Deborah Cass


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Is anyone surprised?
Yesterday afternoon I indeed hooked up with Ellen to look at spinning wheels. The place where she bought her wheel is rather, um, unique. Tucked away in a little strip mall is a tiny nail salon, that also sells candles, has a tanning booth and......spinning wheels. Here is a perfect example of a gal who does what she loves. Fiber addict, spinner and nail tech, all rolled into one.
Now before you say "....but you said you didn't want a castle wheel!" let me explain. This shop sells beautiful Kromski wheels and there were many different wheels to choose from. I am still lusting after the Symphony, but there, in the corner was this little Mazurka, on sale (really on sale--like half price) because the owners puppy had nibbled on the treadle. I was ready to keep looking when Ellen sat down to give it a spin. Then of course I had to try it. Lovely. Just lovely. It spun like a dream, smooth and even with a soothing whir. Once I got the wheel going, the single treadle was no trouble at all. I spun on another wheel, the Polonaise, and truly, I liked the little Mazurka better (go figure). So, it came home with me, along with the lazy kate, oil, an extra drive band, a video and goodie bag of fiber.
On the way back to Ellen's for tea, we stopped by a yak farm to see if they had fiber for sale. Sadly, there was no one home but the yaks, and they weren't talking. They were, however, very cute.......
..................just look at that sweet face! I had no idea yaks were so cute! And they're small, I'm guessing in the 400lb range. And check out that fur.....I'm sure Ellen will be stopping by again.
Back at Ellen's, I sat down for another test spin, which was a bit frustrating at first because things had jiggled out of adjustment on the ride over (through Castlewood Canyon, past a couple wild turkey's). Ellen carded some buffalo, which spun up fairly nicely, but may not be worth the work to get it all prepared........it is full of stuff and ick.
It was time to head home, so I packed up my sweet little wheel and headed out. Apollo and the gang were near the fence, so I stopped for a chat and a photo.
The weather was, well, turbulent is a good word. Out East the skies were nearly black, towards the West, more blue and grey. I had the radio on (classic rock, if you're curious), and there was a road closed due to power lines and trees being down, a report of a sign in the middle of the road and a report of a tornado out East in Ellicot. As I went to bed last night, there were thunderstorms passing by.
The red cardi is still waiting for me to put it together, but I have this nagging feeling that I will follow the Harlot's example and make Tuesday's for Spinning.
.....so many choices.