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February 08, 2011
So, there's a spider the size of a chimpanzee's hand splayed like an asterisk on my lounge room roof but I can't kill it because my friend thinks it's "beautiful".
"It eats bugs and flies," she says, which is pretty crap news for bug and flies.
"It won't bite you," she also says, and she's right because, if it comes near me or my daughter, I'm smearing it into a huntsman tapenade.
I hate creepy, crawly, hairy things that bite - I genuinely fear them - but Ms Save the Spiders wanted me to watch a DVD under this arachnid Sword of Damocles because it was simply part of "nature" ...
Here's the thing though, having been mates with this gal for many years, I also know if a cockroach loiters around the peanut butter at her apartment, you'll get this:
And she's not fussy about how that happens: she leaves the room and the method of disposal is up to me - kind of like most of the world's attitude to torture and terrorists.
It's all a bit subjective don't you think? Spider - part of nature. Cockroach - disgusting insect.
Butterflies are gorgeous; moths are goooone if you get hold of them.
Chickens? Pass the nuggets. Penguins? Pass legislation to protect them.
Anyhow, I know I've singled out my friend here, but her attitude mirrors that of a lot people as to what we consider "natural".
Sunsets, ocean swims and goat's milk yoghurt are all parts of nature, but, as we've seen over the past few weeks, so is flooding, waterborne disease and looting.
Walk into a health food store festooned with posters of rainforests and braided milkmaids agitating organic udders and it's easy to forget nature can also be ugly, brutal and cruel.
Mankind may have invented nuclear weapons and dioxins, but Mother Nature did all the work herself when it came to earthquakes, cholera and asbestos.
Writing in The Chronicle of Higher Education late last year, Professor David P. Barash of the University of Washington said: "In short, what is natural is often good, but not always.
"It may be natural to be a couch potato, to punch someone in the nose if he has angered you, for people to get sick, or for a child to resist toilet training," Barash said.
But we struggle against these "bad" aspects of nature - try to crush them underfoot like a cockroach - while we laud the "good" parts as, well ... "natural".
It's almost a question for the panel of The Gruen Transfer: how does nature manage to maintain such a fantastic brand, despite 24-hour news coverage of its misdeeds?
To wit, watch the "nature" channel with a (horrified) four-year-old child.
See daddy lion laze around in the grass while mama lion chases down prey for the fat bugger to eat.
Notice, too, mum never goes for the head bull wildebeest ... she and her mates pick on the sick or the baby of the herd and then RIP IT APART.
The lessons from nature are thus: males are the boss, females should do all the work, hunt in packs, pick on weaklings, kill mercilessly.
In short, there is no nobility in nature.
Lions and tigers, vultures and snakes, spiders, bacteria and viruses don't challenge you to a duel - and may the best animal win.
They exploit weakness, doing the least work possible to improve their individual well-being.
Who created nature? It wasn't God, it was friggin' Gordon Gekko.
So, if anyone wants to "get back to nature" this weekend, may I suggest cancelling the bushwalk and instead help someone whose house has been rendered with 5000 litres of stinking mud.
It may then dawn upon you that nature is simply about surviving, which is exactly what I did regarding that spider when my friend left my apartment.
I acted on my "natural" impulse: SPLAT!
I outlived it.
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Recent comments
- razrea
- February 07, 2011
I don't mind nature. As long as it's not in my house. Same reason why we save the cute animals and bugger the rest. We only like the cuddly ones.
- edward g murrow
- February 07, 2011
this is a long standing beef that i have with the way 'natural' is bandied about as better, healthier, superior. As in - i don't take aspirin, i think it's healthier to take a natural remedy, like shelving six almonds. The entire Atkins diet was based on this line, 'it's the cavemen diet, the human body hasn't evolved to enable us to digest carbs.' (That of course was completely destroyed by the recent discovery that we have been eating carbs and vegetable matter in particular since time immemorial. turns out old cave man loved his taters.)
it's complete bullshit. what this argument is really saying, is that anything man made is bad. oh yeah? well that to the kid with diabetes who gets an insulin shot every day. and your soy chai latte? unnatural. you think soy beans grow in massive fields without the interference of man? do they bollocks. same answer for cotton. and hemp.
Don't get me wrong, there are massive benefits to eating well,and the organic movement and the more unprocessed the better, but it's got nowt to do with being natural. it's science baby, science. how very unnatural.
- February 07, 2011
Well, it's about managing your local ecology to suit yourself. If you accept that - short of chemical armageddon - something is going to live in the house with you, you need to decide what it is.
Back in Sydney huntman spiders were welcome (except when appearing suddenly above your head), while redbacks were deposited deep in the garden. Here in Mexico we have small lizards that eat the bugs, which is far better than arachnids from our point of view.
There are these giant scary-looking arachnids called vinagrillos, which shoot out vinegar both as a defense and to weaken the shell of bugs that it eats. Bugs like scorpions. So they're welcome too.
You can live in a sterile box or as part of the world...
As for natural instincts, I agree. If a mosquito comes near me I smack it. That's natural. Pouring a couple of litres of DDT around the house is not natural. One is an appropriate reaction, one is not.
Incidentally, I read a report that elk were becoming smaller and weaker in North America because hunters take the largest and strongets bucks...
- Johnny
- February 07, 2011
Aaah spiders...my collective nemesis'.
I like to think i'm pretty brave and outgoing. There isn't a lot that i harbour too much fear of.
Present me with a spider though, and watch me turn to jelly. A stuttering, shuddering coward.
Mine is an irrational fear of them. I know most of the time they won't hurt me, but logic and reason are meaningless against an irrational fear.
I've been bitten by 3 seperate types. Huntsman, St Andrews Cross, and Golden Orb Weaver. The latter being the worst of all.
...cringing just thinking about it...
- Dadevilish1
- February 07, 2011
Nature is "survival of the fittest"
So I squashed that bug? I was doing nature a favour.. it was obviously too slow...
- February 07, 2011
If I sees it I kills it.
Sorry but we must protect our spot on top of the food chain we can't have creppy crawlies taking liberites now can we???
"kind of like most of the world's attitude to torture and terrorists."
I gave water boarding a go on the weekend.
I had just done 3 hours of sport in 42.7 degree heat (actualy temp at the ground) so was in hurry to leave the shower.
Anyway I found it to be most unpleasant. After I figured I had got it right I lasted about 6-7 seconds and didn't try it again.
Its torture for sure. If you don't think so, you aren't doing it right.
- Poobs
- February 07, 2011
C'mon Australia! Let's band together and save the tapeworm!
- SistaSteff
- February 07, 2011
great blog!
- Ronaldo
- February 07, 2011
German cockroaches can withstand 90,000-100,000 rems. Our bodily system will start to fail at 900.
As the top predator in the food chain, it's our duty to treat any threat with extreme prejudice. It's only natural.
Whales, turtles and sharks never threatened our pedestal. I don't understand why we're hunting them (to extinction).
- Shelby
- February 07, 2011
Yeah I bet your friend wouldn't have been so accommodating if the spider had been on her bedroom ceiling. Or maybe she would. I know a bloke who thinks cockroaches are just grand and he refuses to harm them. Last year I was having a bit of a get-together when my faithful pussy cat wrangled a rat into the party area - to show off probably. A guest who was about to serve in Afghanistan was indignant. Save the rat! Save the rat! Everybody is queer except thee and me, and even thee is a little queer.
- February 07, 2011
Or you could have placed a glss over it, slid some paper under the glass and then deposited it outside - that way you get to feel good for being a conservationist AND get to play big game hunter at the same time. No points for screaming when the spider falls to the floor when you're about to put the glass on top.
- hired goon
- February 07, 2011
Having had a stretch of employment in a butchery, I've always reserved a little contempt for people who are always happy to stuff down garbage like frozen chicken schniztel, maccas or fish fingers from the supermarket but when faced with something glorious like a lamb on the spit, or upon viewing a gang of wogs making sausages/pancetta/proscuitto/etc, react with disgust.
"Ooh, look at me, I only like my food when it is hacked to bits in a factory downtown by minimum wage labourers, pumped full of chemical preservatives, packages in boxes and stuck in the freezer."
- Jules
- February 07, 2011
I second Ed Murrow's comment. I get sick of the whole organic, biodynamic crowd taking the high moral ground.
Human's have been playing around with a range of crop varieties for centuries, breeding and cross breeding to develop varieties which serve humankind better. Corn is a great example, as it cannot breed without human intervention. Even so called "heirloom" varieties have been subject to many centuries of work. But talk about genetic modification, which given advances in scientific techniques is a logical next step, and all of a sudden you are somehow anti-nature.
- Sitting on the fence
- February 07, 2011
I dont believe we kill spiders because we blossom on been cruel, we kill them because we know that they can poison us if they bite us, and actually kill us, and chances are that they will bite us, or spread their venom, if left hovering near us.
I dont trust spiders/snakes/rats/ mosquitoes/cockroaches, for the above reasons, and generally stay away from these insects, and people with characteristic traits comprised of, in these insects.
Whenever possible I try to place insects in a glass jar whenever they are hovering inside my place, and then let the insect loose outside.
I love bees because I know they work hard to seamlessly look after nature, and nurture our wellbeing in a big way; however I wouldnt feel the same about a wasp, and would not feel privileged if a wasp stings me. I love dogs because they are loyal to their carer, and they are always excited to see their carer arrive home. I love horses because again like a dog, a horse is loyal to its carer, and would not do the wrong thing by its carer, and predominantly the fact that these animals do not thrive on spreading venom.
- martin
- February 07, 2011
"It wasn't God, it was friggin' Gordon Gekko."
Too true it would be nice if all the morons could wake up to this so we can get a breeding licence and population control asap.
It's not natural for there to be 6 billion humans in the world.
- Stormy
- February 07, 2011
"Chickens? Pass the nuggets. Penguins? Pass legislation to protect them."
Gold. Although if they opened a KFP I'd probably give it a go.
Cockroaches? Evil, must die. They really creep me out, not sure why, maybe a bad experience as a child? Or perhaps that scene in Creepshow (anyone who's seen it knows what I mean).
Spiders? Not a problem unless they're redbacks.
You make a good point about watching nature shows with small children. It's a bit much when kids suddenly graduate from shows with animals happily singing and playing together, to brutal dismemberment. You just know that anything shot in Africa is going to feature a gazelle, antelope or other cute spindly-legged doe-eyed cousin of Bambi being chased, pulled down, mauled and ripped apart by the Paddlepop Lion. And just wait til those whacky hyenas from whatever Disney flick they starred in turn up and start pulling out the entrails...
Not long after I started dating the now-Mrs Stormy, we were trying to sleep one night when Jiminy Cricket started chirping away from a corner of the ceiling. Didn't bother me but it was driving her crazy. On goes the light, and she picked up a rolled-up poster. Oh good, I thought, she's going to do what I'd do and get it onto the end of the poster and pop it out the window.
Nope, she struck it down with great vengeance and furious anger, a one-shot kill mind you. As I looked a bit aghast she sweetly smiled "it was annoying me" and turned off the light.
No wonder I married her, I was too scared not to!
- February 07, 2011
The natural environment of huntsman spiders is outside. My natural environment is in my house. I stay away from them while I am outside and if they come in my house they must die. the gods didn't invent spider-specific spray in a black can for nothing.
Huntsman spider run at you and they are hairy and they move so quickly and appear so suddenly. Nothing like that should be allowed to survive in my house.
- milonelion
- February 07, 2011
Bluebottles (stingers) may a great popping sound when stepped on. They are going to die when washed up on the beach anyway.
- Umm
- February 07, 2011
Next time use a broom to transport the spider outside into the garden - let the huntsman climb aboard the business end of the broom then run like crazy while screaming your head off to the nearest (open - this is quite important) window and shake the hairy beast off into your neighbour's (aka mortal enemy's) garden.
- save us
- February 07, 2011
your friends save or kill attitude relate to her dating as well? looks beautiful save them, looks ugly kill them.most creatures have the right to live, I said most. I find humans unnerving most of the time in this subject. let it live or kill it.Humans seem to do the later with out thinking. Get a cockroach put into water freeze it and let it defrost (it should come alive) show her the other side to them. LOL
- randomguy
- February 08, 2011
loving nature can be a one way street
it does not necessarily love you back
take mozzies for instance
or grasshoppers
only last night a spied one, pale and lonely loitering behind a couch
so being David Attenborough's man on the ground I grabbed it to take outside for a shot at a longer life
next thing I felt an excruciating pain in my thumb where the little bastard had sunk it's fangs into me, no doubt thinking it was acting in self defence
which only goes to show that wildlife is, um, wild - and you cannot expect it to behave otherwise
- Dumped
- February 08, 2011
I read somewhere that if all insects were eliminated, it would take only 30 years for all life on earth to end.
- SmartMonkey
- February 08, 2011
"It wasn't God, it was friggin' Gordon Gekko"
Like it.
If God is God, then he is not good. If God is good, then he is not God.
- kp
- February 08, 2011
My father spent his childhood hunting, trapping and fishing anything that ran, slithered, swam or flew. Ironically, he was a career soldier who hated guns, but loved testing his manhood vs nature by killing things with knife, bow and bare hands.
He held a personal belief that every animal deserves a fair fight, so he taught me to hunt, and many a joyous bonding session was spent tramping through reeds at Bool Lagoon after duck, bowhunting goats in the Flinders Ranges,and generally gratuitously killing stuff for absolutely no good reason at all.
Then one day I accidentally shot a protected native bird (not sure of statute of limitations, so I'll leave it at that!) and had to finish it off with my bare hands. I was thirteen, and it made me sick to the stomach.
I've never killed anything since then. I now avoid stepping on ants, I carry spiders outside, and all manner of creatures great and small are welcome in my back yard.
It took my wife a few years of repeatedly screaming "Aaagh! Massive hairy spider! Quick! Kill it, o' brave husband!" before she got the tip and started kiilling them herself. I just won't be party to it anymore.
There are about one billion tonnes of insect per human being on Earth. One day the insect world will get sick of us, in much the same way we get annoyed by and ruthlessly hunt down a solitary mosquito whining around the bedroom after lights out. When they decide to rear up, nature red in tooth and claw, and render our species extinct, then maybe I'll be persuaded to take up the fight again.
But until then, I remember my small place in the bigger picture, and keep vewy, vewy quiet.
- Tim
- February 08, 2011
Spiders are alright, just put it on a broom and out the door. It may be necessary to throw the entire broom out the door as they can run fast. I do the same thing with cockroaches.
I once had a big rat that ended up in my flat, it must have run out of food as it stopped in the middle of the floor and watched me. I threw a towel on it and put it out in the garden. I'm still not sure it was a rat, it was pretty big.
- Cringo
- February 08, 2011
I hate spiders etc, however the one I found in my speedos during a swim last Sunday still lives today - in the neighbours yard where I flicked it.
- February 08, 2011
Many years ago I went to a pider exibition at the Australian Museum under the delusion I could seek to understand the eight legged creature and not be to frozen with fear when a big hairy one came into my presence.
Fat lot of good that did. Hunstman spiders live in colonies. Colonies! There can be up to 80 of the buggers at any one time!
May the gods help me if I was ever confronted by one of those tarantulas from South America with the big, pointy fange loping towards me. There would be no scary spider dance effective enough to make it go away. That is what poison spray is for.
- Andrew
- February 08, 2011
"And she's not fussy about how that happens: she leaves the room and the method of disposal is up to me - kind of like most of the world's attitude to torture and terrorists."
I've seen lots of women in fact observe the execution of the insect. They need to know it's dead.
But being gay I don't need to impress the girls with this. I decline to kill it, telling them if they were any kind of feminist they would go and do it.
- Troglodyte
- February 08, 2011
I don't like dirty or bitey insects in the house. Ants, Cicadas, Grasshoppers & Fruit Flies are ok, the rest I kill if I can get to them.
Lizards can hang out.
Tip for spider euthanasia: Use your vacuum cleaner minus the floor attachment. You don't have to go anywhere near the buggers and you don't end up with any marks on the wall.
I also had to laugh at people who think that you can't go wrong with homeopathic cures. Nature (Botany) comes up with heaps of stuff that you shouldn't put anywhere your body!
- Maniachist
- February 08, 2011
Well, actually, huntmans are good to have around as they kill other natsy spiders and bugs. Their bite isn't poisonous and they generally keep out of the way. Think of them like an ugly cleaning lady.
- raid
- February 08, 2011
Yeah, I agree with the vacuum cleaner idea, I use that too.
My boss found one in his snorkel. Inside the mouthpiece. Luckily he inspected it before he put it on else it'd have been a case of spider sputter.
Humans aren't the only species that drive other species to extinction though. Everytime a biologically superior, better adapted species develops in an ecological niche, other species in the same niche die off or forced to another niche. Survival of the fittest and all that.
- Posh Totty
- February 08, 2011
Sam, the spider would probably eat the nasty cockroach! So live and let live I say.
Different matter when you have a huntsman in your car (as I did last summer - it tortured me for weeks!)
Did you know huntsman are the only spider which has lungs?
- tba
- February 08, 2011
I cant believe you dont use Mortein Outdoor. Squirt it around all windows, vents, doors and other ways into the house/unit and you get no freaking insects or creatures inside at all. Man, youre living like a savage.
To ward off any creeping phobia I let the spiders rule supreme in the yard this year. I thought I would be overrun but it turns out they have a really short lifespan. Kinda sobering to realise whether I kill them or not theyre not around on the earth for very long as it is. So now Im more than happy to let em have their moment.
- Thea
- February 08, 2011
I once woke up to blood-curdling screams as a teenager, ran out of my room only to see my naked, dripping-wet sister howling and flicking herself all over, screaming; "Oh my god, it fell on me! It fell on me!" Apparently the huntsman is not above living on a shower head :)
But I quite like the little buggers, I get bitten by any mosquito in a three mile radius so having a nice huntsman on the ceiling feels welcome. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. If it really bothers you, they're easy to get outside with a tupperware container and a piece of paper - just don't jam a leg under the box or you'll feel like scum (I sure did).
I have to sometimes remind myself about my cat having her "natural instincts" because it still irks me a lot to see her crunching down on a butterfly (yes, they crunch) or torturing a skink. She'll be purring her little head off all the while.
It's best I don't start on the "all natural" crowd - particularly those who refuse to have their children vaccinated for fear of the nasty, population-saving "chemicals" involved... I don't know if I could politely get out of the situation without calling them ignorant, and hypocritical ... too late.
- Johnny
- February 08, 2011
I was bitten by a huntsman quite recently.
It didn't feel anywhere near as bad as what i thought it would. Still not a pleasant experience though.
It basically felt like a really hard bee-sting that lasted about 10 minutes.
Getting bitten by the Golden Orb Weaver takes the cake as the worst bite i've had though.
- CityChick
- February 08, 2011
If you have scales, wings, four or more legs you belong outside. Its that simple.
You enter my domicile at your own peril be prepared for chemical warfare or the possibility you will be hit with a well aimed shoe or magazine. None of this catch and release crap. They just come back and often will bring their friends.
Im selective about domestic pets too fish are best when served with a crisp white wine, birds roasted and served with potatoes in duck fat. Dogs are just plain needy (and therefore off putting), I like cats, but I dont want to end up being the crazy cat woman in the street.
Hmmm Im a city dweller for a reason I dont want to get close to where my food source comes from ... nicely presented at the butchers or in the produce section of the green grocer is fine by me.
However, if Im travelling or camping, I really dont mind sharing my space with other critters. After all Im in their territory :) only seems fair.
- February 08, 2011
Darwinism had a lot going for it. Some of the best lessons lie in nature itself.
However: just because something is natural doesn't always make it right.
- February 08, 2011
You could have used a straw broom and flicked it out to the garden, couldn't you.
I knecked a redback the other day but that's different right? They're actually dangerous.
- optimiss
- February 08, 2011
Good comments - people are just not thinking when they say if it's 'natural' it must be good. What about body or foot odour? Not to mention diseases, deadly bacteria etc.
No insects, mice, rats, cockroaches - or anything that could have the word 'plague' attached to it - will survive in my vicinity.
- Ruhfus
- February 08, 2011
Can you get back on the white lines and blog about that. I enjoyed that
- joncitizen
- February 08, 2011
The meaning of "nature" in the sense you're using it is pretty murky. I mean in one sense nature is everything. Stars are nature. We're nature. The space shuttle is nature, as are insecticides, footpaths, skyscrapers, Humvees and their exhaust smoke.
But another sense of the word seems to be used more often is that "nature" everything other than homo sapiens and the byproducts of our particular species. Which is also problematic. Because when did we stop being part of nature? Agriculture? Permanent settlements? When that Australopithecus in 2001 started smashing stuff with a bone?
And how come ants and bees and beavers other species can build stuff that changes the environment, often significantly, but they're still in "nature"?
Not to get all metaphysical (actually, I am, sorry), but I think the idea that humans and nature are separate is wrong. I think nothing is separate from anything else. I'm persuaded by quantum physicist David Bohm's theory of the Implicate Order - everything infinitely interconnected, separateness a construct. Discussed it before, don't have time to today, but if you're interested check out this interview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvyD2o7w24g (in 5 parts)
As for spiders, I find em to big to squash - that crackling feeling gives me the creeps. Find it much easier to shepherd them into a receptacle and tip them outside. But I must confess to a fascination with bug sprays. I boyishly like the fact I can purchase a stock of chemical warfare agents at the supermarket. Even if I do feel a pang of guilt about the interconnected universe when I use them. Get's rid of that mossie keeping me up very efficiently though.
- The Schoolmarm
- February 08, 2011
"it would be nice if all the morons could wake up to this so we can get a breeding licence and population control asap."
Right, because there's NO way that could go wrong...
- corgette
- February 08, 2011
Posh Totty
February 08, 2011 10:29 AM
Different matter when you have a huntsman in your car (as I did last summer - it tortured me for weeks!)
that reminds me of the time my ex husband came over to pick something up. he bounded out of his car and asked for a broom. yes a hunstman. so we got it out of the car and into the garden and then he asked if they travel in pairs ( he's not from this country). I was soooooo tempted to say 'yes, or packs'
I have a hunstman in my living room at the moment. or I did last week. I haven't seen it latley. It probably died from the heat or from an avalanche of toys on it or something.
I used to be deathly afraid of spiders until I had children and had to read insect and spider books to them over and over and over again
- CityChick
- February 08, 2011
Thea ...
February 08, 2011 11:20 AM
Your comment about vaccination hit a nerve.
My oldest sister was the 1 in 10,000 who had an allergic reaction to her 2nd baby vaccination. There was no pre-allergy test. Just jabbed.
She fitted within moments of the injection, and was without oxygen for a period of time. As a result has been left with diminished mental and motor neuron skills.
Shes in her mid 40s now and her life has not been an easy one. The stigma of being different is less now. I love her dearly, though I cant help but wonder how different her life could have been had she not been injected.
Anyhoo .. as a result, I wasnt vaccinated until I went travelling a few years ago. I had violent reactions to all but 2 vaccinations. Whether I turned out fine however, is still up for debate depends on who you speak too :)
However, I can see both sides of the fence here - I couldnt imagine how hard it would be for a parent whose child is sick as result of something that could have been prevented by a simple injection.
- Olaf
- February 08, 2011
the spiders are coming to get us, no joke.
- Jimmy
- February 08, 2011
I used to let spiders be until one gave birth & we arrived home to hundreds of the fcuking things all over our lounge room ceiling. The 'live & let live' thing went out the window pretty quickly after that.
- leedacris
- February 08, 2011
Well, my boyfriend has what he calls a gentlemans agreement with the Huntsman spider, if it stays the hell away from him, he doesn't smush it, I however take great joy in killing anything smaller than my fist that has more than four legs :)
- Eric um-Bist
- February 08, 2011
Dogs irritate me. Probably because a lot of other people like them. But to me a dog indicates that a person is incapable of finding love from another person so has to resort to getting it from another species instead. Which makes them pretty sad people doesn't it.
Oh aye, they're also noisy, smelly, ignorant, bags of faeces as well.
- katea
- February 08, 2011
Snakes scrae me more than spiders. I've watched my Mum take the had off a brown snake with a 9 iron - as it was on the front step and wouldn't move - we did live in the country.
Mortein have a great new can of bug spray with a nice long arm thingy - great for spraying spiders with less cahnce of them jumping at you.
I'm not a vegetarian, I wear leather shoes, kills the bugs I say!
- February 08, 2011
I'm for the straw broom method myself - until it clambers up the handle and then you have to drop it and scream like a baby.
Just put it outside.
I only swat the truly stoopid that wont be helped or the painful and poisonous.
Or - the trapped and damaged in which case its mercy.
To - SmartMonkey
February 08, 201108:35 AM
You might be rational - but not smart.
Now you'll have every half-arsed fundamentalist weighing in on an insect debate. Party-on Friends
- Tyu
- February 08, 2011
February 08, 201112:55 PM
Your reaction is understandable concerning your sister but your conclusion has a major flaw. It's exactly the same as saying that you refuse to go to the hospital because you could get diseases there. Vaccination has been one of the most important advancement in humankind. No more rabies, no more polio, very little measles. Therefore, I'll back up Thea saying that people refusing to vaccinate their children are ignorant and irresponsible.
Recently this trend in refusing children vaccination, especially in the rich and well educated suburbs, caused the massive coughing disease last year whereas this diseases had no effect in the West where children are vaccinated at a rate of nearly 100%.
- February 08, 2011
CityChick February 08, 2011 12:55 PM
That is why vaccination is important so that the disease doesn't spread to people who are unable to be vaccinated such as yourself, your sister and very wee babies. The more people that are vaccinated the lover the risk that the disease can be transmitted.
Then again the anti-vaccination brigade will probably have a go at me about how it causes autism and other conditions. I think they smell like hippies so that is my penance for dealing with them. All that patchouli and sandalwood. Ugh!
I would rather have vaccinations than watch my loved ones go through smallpox, polio etc. As long as there is testing for allergies for people such as yourself and your sister.
- Stormy
- February 08, 2011
February 08, 2011 12:56 PM
thanks for the link dude, that was funny stuff. If my age or IQ were under 40 I'd say "LOL".
- Posh Totty
- February 08, 2011
Yeah my values changed when I was at risk of crashing my car (huntsman was rapidly making it's way across the windshield heading toward open side window).
I killed it with the windshield wipers.
- bees are stealing pollen, weeds are stealing sunlight
- February 08, 2011
humans are so arrogant,cocky and soulless!! acting like you can compartmentalise the entire system of life and associated events on the planet as 'nature' and then try to apply your limited brain power to some sort of judgement on whether it's good or bad! nature/life is not an entity to be judged! who are you to judge your creator and provider with highly subjective ideas of right and wrong??
humans are animals,a part of nature. why is this challenging? why is demoralising?
this system is perfectly just - despite being full of tragedy. it is just because it works in balance, we (each manifestation of life) keep eacother alive by keeping eachother in check. there is no war in this system, there are no grudges.
if you must judge, look at how humans have twisted nature's law (which keeps us alive) as John Berry puts it:We have subverted the basic biological law that every life form shall have other life forms or conditions that limit its expansion, so that no single life form or group of life forms should suffocate the other life forms.
Jules February 07, 2011 07:07 PM
NO. Genetic modification is most definitely not the next logical step, not for the planet - only for the corporations.. only in a capitalist system that attempts to make money from the necessity of life to feed and water itself.. there is a huge difference between creating a mutually beneficial system through humans aiding in plant regeneration, like with corn, and the manufacturing of seeds that only reproduce once, and outlawing seedsaving and independent farming - which is the purpose of GMOs - they are designed to control and then profit from nature's regeneration, which is the one and only thing we should regard as sacred.
- rufus
- February 08, 2011
Animals native to Australia (except mosquitoes and sandflies) - live and let live. Feral exotics? Kill 'em.
Eric um-Bist 01:09 PM
I love my dogs more than I do most people. Why should that bother you? And YOU call people like ME sad.
- Annie Tyler
- February 08, 2011
"nature is simply about surviving"
Couldn't you say the same about life in general?
- Thea
- February 08, 2011
@ City Chick
Sorry if what I wrote sounded insensitive. What happened to your sister is tragic - and of course there are occasional cases where vaccinations cause side effects. However, as Tyu pointed out (think he was talking about whooping cough), too many parents are opting out for no good reason, and the overall prevalence of preventable, deadly childhood diseases is growing for the first time in a century. If we want to live in a society where the risk of infectious diseases is minimal due to vaccination, we need to play our part in the social contract and accept the small risk of side effects. These are very rarely as extreme as in your sister's case. And the risk of a child developing cognitive impairments, blindness/deafness etc is MUCH higher if they contract e.g. rubella in early childhood than as a response to vaccination.
If anyone wants to leap on the "vaccination causes autism" bandwagon, please read this first:
to quote, researchers have answered the question of whether vaccination is linked to autism; "firmly in the negative". Despite what Jim Carrey's wife's misinformation campaign would have you believe.
- el bento
- February 08, 2011
A theory came to me the other day when I was under the stars. I distinctly remember feeling so insignificant when looking up at all the stars as a youngster. Now, there are hardly any and the night sky is a bit of a non event these days. Couple that with the fact were all looking at ourselves more because of an increase in reflecting surfaces and less hours spent in darkness, is there any wonder the instances of narcissism or self hatred have increased?
Turn out the lights, stop looking at ourselves and become reacquainted with the fact that were just specks hurtling through a vast space? Perhaps then we wont need to take it out on creatures 4 million times smaller than us.
- Mooch
- February 08, 2011
I had this exact conversation about cockroaches and spiders just the other day...me being the only one who felt cockroaches were guilty, and spiders are innocent victims who ply their webs solely to serve us and rid us of flies etc. I now feel bad as I'm not sure the cockroaches do any harm so I wont kill them anymore...perhaps they need some good press.
However, the day I show mercy to mosquitoes, blood sucking spawn of the devil that they are, is the day I flap my arms and fly away.
- Bruce (just my real name)
- February 08, 2011
It's simple. Natural has no objective meaning as humans are a part of the world - natural and man made. It is more a moralizing or emotive term that doesn't bare too close analysis.
What matters in killing things is whether there is suffering and that depends on the nervous system. At one extreme, bacteria don't have one while mammals (including us) have one. In between it is reasonable to suppose suffering occurs and so it is ethical to err on the side of not killing.
So I agree "natural" is a bullshit term.
- pinky tuscadero
- February 08, 2011
Two long-legged huntsmen greeted me for breakfast this morning. They have so many pairs of eyes that's what really disturbs me. I only had to turn my head 15 degrees and they would presume I was distracted and start moving. Eek, they seem brainy.
February 08, 201111:20 AM
Hate to say it Thea...but I'm one of those ignorant hypocritical types who balked at the idea of formaldehyde or mercury or live virus being injected into the bloodstream of my gorgeous new born. Yep, that's disease straight into the bloodstream and up to the brain. I've met too many people with kids who had adverse reactions (such as banging their head on the wall all night after their needle) to go there. Brain damage, autism - you would pause to wonder about it if you had a child. I hate the idea that it will be presumed i'm ignorant, selfish and have no social conscience, but if you can't tell me its 100% safe why the hell would i inject my baby with it? I'd rather take my gamble with nature than knowingly put crap into my baby's system. Its a pretty complicated issue - most who inject don't read a word beyond the simplistic pamphlets at their GPs. Ignorance is not the issue.
- Homer
- February 08, 2011
You're all a bunch of city-fied wussbags, whingeing about huntsman spiders and cockroaches.
Wander up north to where I live and see how you go - brown snakes, taipans, funnellwebs, tarantulas, sharks, crocs, sea-snakes, dengue mosquitos, box jellyfish and stonefish. I can find all of these within a 5 minute walk from my front door. I do my best to leave them alone, and so far they've left me alone. They're all part of the natural world, and as long as the natural world stays outside of my house and off my property, then all's fine and dandy. Come inside, and they die, no ifs' or buts' about it.
EXCEPT for cane toads. I will actively hunt down and destroy those bastards wherever I find them. They are the anti-christ of nature.
- once a traveler
- February 08, 2011
We bought the "Green Guide to Spiders of Australia" (excellent book), when we traveled there. We carried it around like a bible and had great fun identifying the spiders we came across. The spiders there are a riot, ones that jump like fleas, and stare back at you. But then again we didn't get bitten.
- February 08, 2011
pinky tuscadero February 08, 2011 05:46 PM
So you are a parent and know best and put other people's children at risk of disease and harm rather than deal with a minor side effect of a vaccination.
There is no demonstrable link between vaccination and brain damage. There has been no research to find a link and the research that showed a link has been shown to be flawed.
Sure, risk it with your own child, just realise that you are creating a risk for other children regardless of how you believe you can "quarantine" your child when symptoms show.
Ever seen a 6 week old child with whooping cough? Look at it and then decide whether you would do that to another's child or your own.
Look at the footage of children from my parent's generation in iron lungs from polio. Have a look at the footage of children form that generation with communicable diseases that haven't been in the Western world for 30 years and then you tell me whether your natural justice way is the best.
Nothing we do as human beings is just about us. Every decision we make has an impact on another human for better or worse. Your decision I think is for worse.
That is my opinion and I believe you are irresponsible.
- tugdraker
- February 08, 2011
I went fishing on the weekend with mates and was bitten on the neck by an 'Acid beetle' or at least that is what the lady at the chemist authoritatively told me when I showed her the large nasty red hickey like mark on my neck.
I did not even feel the bite even though it was an ACID BEETLE that attacked!I may have had a few beers before the attack.
Pretty sure I killed it though and in so doing it appears I may have smeared the acid from the point of the beetle attack thereby exacerbating the severity and appearance of the wound.
Anyway, it looks exactly like a hickey so as well as having the ability to inflict horrific injuries, pain, scarring, sickness and death nature can also cause great embarrasment.
Everyone I have spoken to or passed in the street since Saturday has been staring at it and naturally assuming it is a hickey, I know it; a client even pointed at it and gave me a knowing nod and remarked that I was 'a bit old to be out tom catting'.
- Tantea
- February 08, 2011
True, true - splat is the best way.
- insomniac
- February 08, 2011
In the grand scheme of things we are all rats.
- February 08, 2011
Homer February 08, 2011 06:13 PM
My name is M and I am a wussbag. As evidence I rarely go to the beach because there are things that sting, bite or could eat me. I don't go too often to the country where there are things that bite, sting or could eat me even though I miss the stars (Mooch
February 08, 2011 04:26 PM thanks for reminding me). I don't live in a bushland area because of the spiders, snakes and other stingy, bitey things.
Whatever I can avoid makes me stronger each day. Aside from wine. That makes me happy.
The cat next door can die because it pisses in my veggie pots.
- Stormy
- February 08, 2011
pinky tuscadero
February 08, 201105:46 PM
"you would pause to wonder about it if you had a child"
No I wouldn't. Or rather, didn't. Not for a second, with either of my kids.
With all respect to CityChick and her sister, and as she pointed out it's 1 in 10,000 that something could go wrong, do you have any idea how many kids died or were scarred for life by the diseases that vaccination prevents?
I spent years working in country courthouses which still had the birth death and marriage registers from 1856 onwards. Every second entry in the death registers, right up til the 60s and 70s, were kids. I was only in my early 20s then with no plans of ever being a parent but that hard evidence was enough for me.
I hope your 'gamble with nature' is a winning one, for your child's sake. You do know there's been a huge spike in the number of whooping cough cases recently don't you.
I know you said "it's a pretty complicated issue", but how? A very, very small chance of an adverse reaction versus a much greater chance of a life threatening illness. What's complicated?
- Star
- February 08, 2011
I love All men are liars blog, come check mine out, see what you think.
- Thea
- February 08, 2011
@ pinky tuscadero
Firstly, you obviously ignored the link to sources stating that vaccination has no link to autism. But to address your main point; sure, you say don't want your precious baby to be exposed to vaccines, but presumably polio, rubella, diptheria, whooping cough, tetanus, measles and mumps are just fine with you? Cause if you remove vaccines, that's what you're left with. Your child will fortunately be at fairly low risk though, thanks to the majority of parents who do vaccinate. You get all of the benefit and none of the risk - must be a nice feeling for you. Let's hope that we don't get too many people taking that stance, though, or childhood morbidity and mortality will skyrocket.
- Huskynik
- February 08, 2011
Tim @ 09:02 AM
"I once had a big rat that ended up in my flat, it must have run out of food as it stopped in the middle of the floor and watched me."
It was waiting for you to set the table and pour the wine.
Eric um-Bist @ 01:09 PM
In most instances, dogs and humans co-exist in a facultative symbiotic relationship.
What makes a person sad, Eric, is ignorance. You know what I'm talking about.
- nelly
- February 09, 2011
February 08, 2011 06:13 PM
Thank you for your kind invitation but I must regretfully decline.
- Bruce (just my real name)
- February 09, 2011
It's simple. Natural has no objective meaning as humans are a part of the world - natural and man made. It is more a moralizing or emotive term that doesn't bare too close analysis.
What matters in killing things is whether there is suffering and that depends on the nervous system. At one extreme, bacteria don't have one while mammals (including us) have one. In between it is reasonable to suppose suffering occurs and so it is ethical to err on the side of not killing.
So I agree "natural" is a bullshit term.
- waysideblue
- February 09, 2011
*StarFebruary 08, 2011
is your blog a valiant satire of this or sincerely vacuous?
- The Scholar
- February 09, 2011
It's just a huntsman, leave them alone and they won't bite.
It's the ones that you can't see that you have to worry about.
- Homer
- February 09, 2011
@ pinky tuscadero dipstick
February 08, 2011 05:46 PM
My younger brother caught whooping cough at age 6. Coughed so hard for 4 weeks straight that he couldn't keep food down, even if he could manage to chew and swallow between coughing fits. Ever seen an 18kg 6 year old? Makes the Jewish kids in Auschwitz look fat. He ended up in hospital being fed through a tube for a month and nearly died.
They traced the disease back to a Vietnamese kid in his class. Guess what? Neither parents or child had been vaccinated. The school removed him from classes until he had been vaccinated and had a doctors certificate as proof.
That event made an impact, and both my children were vaccinated as soon as they could be. I didn't want them catching some savage disease and risk them dying, and, as a responsible parent, didn't want to potentially inflict that on someone elses' child.
You're nothing but a goose. Keep your kids in your house and home school them so as to not expose others to the risk.
- I See Red
- February 09, 2011
So, you will not be putting any 'poisons' into your children's bodies, i.e., Panadol, Nurofen, anaesthetics required when bones are broken, pain killers when stitches are required, Ventolin if they are asthmatic, or the contraceptive pill, etc., etc., etc.? Good luck with that!
I suggest you do some more reading, namely research carried out in Denmark which should show you the reality of the risk and not the knee-jerk reaction from panic merchants looking to blame. What? Did someone say, Americans? Not I!
- Dan
- February 09, 2011
As someone who does a lot of more difficult, off-track hiking, I've never really understood those who see nature as God's gift or mother nature. It is beautiful, but unless we build roads, lookouts and manicured paths to help us enjoy it, it is largely there to scratch us, bite us, poison us, spread mosquito-born disease, sprain ankles and bring hypothermia, heat exhaustion and many other forms of pain upon us. Few things are edible and the water is usually full of various dysentries.
I always feel that to appreciate nature, you must first appreciate that it was never there 'for us', and that stripped from our roads and buildings we need to approach it with care and due caution. I'm always amused by those who eulogise the outdoors experience but go no further than a houseboat or 4WD (a fortified tank against the wilderness) - there is no room for insects, bad weather or pain in their version of nature. This blog reminds me of the foolish bloke in the film 'Grizzly Man', who treated large brown bears as essentially "humans in bear costumes" right up to the point one ate him and (far more tragically) his girlfriend.
- CityChick
- February 09, 2011
So let me get this straight
By opting not to vaccinate is irresponsible.
By opting to vaccinate with the risk involved (1 in 10,000) that isnt?.
I appreciate the reasoning. I also acknowledge my perception is biased on this.
Okay - for arguments sake, lets take it a little further.
Arent the infant mortality rates prior to vaccinations natures way of keeping the species (human) population under control?
What happened to survival of the fittest? We dont question it when comes to other species, but why are we so intent to ensure our own survival regardless of the quality of the gene pool?
Giving everyone a fighting chance leads to concerns about everything from over population, resource allocation, food and water supplies globally.
Just saying.
@ Tyu
I didnt realise I had made a flawed conclusion. But since you raised it of course, I dont visit hospitals unless necessary. They are rife with bacteria and people who are sick. Ever asked a nurse what they do with their work shoes when they finish their shifts?
What about the prevalence of super bugs or resistant strains of certain diseases they have all come about because of the overuse of meds and existing strains mutating to overcome whatever chemical warfare we throw at them.
I know people who have gone into hospital for one reason, only to have been infected with something theyve contracted whilst in there. Alternatively, have developed multiple complications because of meds they use to deal with diagnosed illness.
cont'd ...
- CityChick
- February 09, 2011
cont'd ...
Ie take a pill for a heart problem, side effect loss of kidney function, action? Take a pill for the kidneys, which then causes high blood pressure, so you take an aspirin then cause youre taking all these meds, not feeling good, youre prescribed something else before you know it youre popping 20 pills with brekkie everyday.
When was it decided that a long life of diminished quality is better than a short high quality one?
Huh. Looks like even if Im a city dweller, underneath Im actually a patchouli/ sandalwood wearing, tie die hippie
. who knew?
- SmartMonkey
- February 09, 2011
* February 08, 2011
JP - I think you are jumping at spiders my friend. :)
- annoyed
- February 09, 2011
that tagline for this on the age homepage is actually driving me insane. 'nature' is NOT a brand. this suggestion is extremely offensive...
this article is flippant and unintelligent. human's do not own this planet.
whoever suggested spending less time looking in the mirror and more time gazing at the sky was spot on.
why pretend we are gods? it's a heavy load to carry... respect this planet, it is everything and without it we are nothing.
- al
- February 09, 2011
Sam, seeing as we are 'human', what sets us apart from 'nature' is our supposed 'humanity', whereby we can make a rational choice to either kill an animal painlessly where necessary or let it live where we can. problem being that people dont seem to care about the idea of 'humanity' as such, they just to whatever the *#*# they want to meet their own ends, regardless, as youve said in your article. so try being humane next time you get a harmless spider in your home. have you not heard of the ice cream tub trick ? get an old ice cream tub, place over the spider, slide some paper/carboard under it, carry both outside, place them a long way from your front door, collect later when spider has cleared off...done.
- The evil twin
- February 09, 2011
The cat next door can die because it pisses in my veggie pots.
I have no qualms about killing anything that wants to harm or kill me, including those huge red bull-ants that have huge yellow jaws and rear up at you like a funnel web spider. Geez a bite from one of those itches and hurts for weeks.
M February 08, 2011 09:24 PM
A good way to keep the cat out of your veggie pots is to poke wooden skewers into the soil, pointy end down of course, you don't want to poke yourself while feeding watering and harvesting.
- craig schwartz
- February 09, 2011
I have a photo of a huntsman spider chowing down on a cockroach. I don't like cockroaches because they have a nasty habit of crawling all over MY food. Huntsmans dont do that, and they eat cockroaches, so I just collect them and put them outside, where they can keep up the good work.
Also, re "See daddy lion laze around in the grass while mama lion chases down prey for the fat bugger to eat. " Yes that's true, but you leave out the part where younger male lion looking to get his rocks off shows up and older male lion has to defend his turf or die trying. it aint decided in a civilised fashion, but literally tooth and claw, with the loser usually coming off very much worse than the winner, and sometimes even the winner still being mortally wounded.
nature is a bitch.
and while we are at it c.f. Monty Python's "all things dull and ugly"
- February 09, 2011
@ pinky tuscadero
If it's not 100% safe why would you do it? Guess you wouldn't strap your precious newborn into the car either, because you might crash. Better not take bub out for a walk, in case a car hits you.
FYI-they don't put thimerosal (mercury) in vaccines any more. Typical antivax lies.
I have a 7 month old daughter and she has been, and will be, fully vaccinated unless I find out that there's some actual reason not to (e.g. allergic reaction-so far she's fine).
Please tell me you haven't bred, and if you haven't, please don't. You people are dangerous.
I don't know which spiders are going to hurt me if they bite and which aren't so my default position is to kill it. Flies just piss me off, plus I can occasionally putt off an awesome mid-air catch of the little bastards. Moths absolutely gross my wife out, yet I'm happy to send them on their harmless way.
- Tony
- February 09, 2011
"The lessons from nature are thus: males are the boss..."
Just nitpicking - but that depends on whether the nature doco is covering lions or the praying mantis...
- craig schwartz
- February 09, 2011
@pinky tuscadero
Re 'live viruses' used in vaccines - you left out 'attenuated' - you do understand how the immune system works don't you? what do you think is getting into your 'gorgeous new born' when they actually catch measles, or chickenpox, or whooping cough. Full blown, 100% pure, live virus.
re formaldehyde - since you are so obviously fully informed on all the science behind vaccinations, you presumably also know that the body produces far more formaldehyde as a natural byproduct of its metabolism that it will ever receive in a vaccination. and mercury is no longer used in vaccinations, even though the miniscule amount is less than you might get out of eating a can of tuna.
just looking at measles, Complications with measles are relatively common, ranging from relatively mild and less serious diarrhea, to pneumonia and encephalitis (subacute sclerosing panencephalitis), corneal ulceration leading to corneal scarring. Hope you are ok with your 'gorgeous new born' having all those, as well as measles.
The fatality rate from measles for otherwise healthy people in developed countries is 3 deaths per thousand cases, or 0.3%
rates of severe reaction to vaccination at ~1/100000, and death somewhat less.
"In January 2010, a study of Polish children found that vaccination with the measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine was not a risk factor for development of autistic disorder, in fact the vaccinated patients had a slightly reduced risk of autistic disorder"
people like you shouldn't be allowed to have pets, let alone be allowed to raise children
- February 09, 2011
CityChick February 09, 2011 09:58 AM
Crossing the road when the red man is flashind while listening to your iPod and sending a text message is also irresponsible. Thise that die doing just that could also be considered part of the "survival of the fittest" theory.
Most often the diseases covered by vaccination cripple rather than kill. Do a search on children who have recovered from Polio or Smallpox or Whooping Cough. Children who had polio suffered muscule wastage and often had to wear calipers on their legs or end up in a wheelchair or even in an iron lung for the rest of their lives. Children with small pox were scarred inside and outside for life. Perhaps you should search for images of that too.
The worst is Whooping cough. What happens to wee babies and children who don't get enough oxygen to their brain because they are coughing and unable to breathe? Brain damage is what happens.
There is a risk everything we do every day that we take because we make that choice. With communicable diseases our choice has an impact on the risk to the rest of the community.
Look at the images and look at what happens in the world as a result from these diseases coming back.
Your allergy to vaccinations means you can't be protected from those diseases. The fact that 80+% of the community is vaccinated keeps you protected. If it gets lower than 80% then you will most likely be one of the ones who catches the diseas in the early days.
Just sayin'
- Wyn
- February 09, 2011
Kill all ugly animals!
- Eric um-Bist
- February 09, 2011
rufus, Huskynik,
Yeah dogs are real useful for worrying sheep, chasing foxes, intimidating innocents, ripping the faces off kids and even adults unfortunate enough to stray into their turf. Bet the Jews in the concentration camps really enjoyed patting the alsations on the head.
The most unfortunate thing for dogs is that they get to act as surrogate friends for the socially inadequate. The unfortunate thing being that dogs are too stupid to realise they're being used.
At least they provide a laugh in watching their friends/owners running after them picking up their poop.
Charming things indeed, though I do exclude guide-dogs, at least until the Japanese invent something superior.
- I See Red
- February 09, 2011
@pinky tuscadero
...may soon be tinky 'pus'cadero if and when nature takes it course.
- Xena
- February 09, 2011
I had a lifelong fear of all crawling, creeping, leaping and flying insects. After 18 months of therapy for dealing with issues from my early life, I discovered my insect phobia was cured, even though I wasn't being treated for it and never mentioned it. I can whack any cockroach and even broom the golden orb weaver spiders out of the way when hanging the washing.
My family, who used to scoff at my cringing ways, now claim to be tired of my new enthusiasm for whacking creepy things.
My therapist was very bemused and said none of his patients had ever had that effect before.
- pinky tuscadero
- February 09, 2011
Hey all - Thea, M,AJL, Stormy, I See Red etc. I don't mind the backlash from you guys - I know its contentious, and you would like to think I"m some stinky, romantic ill-informed hippy, just sittin here making daisy chains and saying "Not my child" on the vaccination issue. But that's not the case. As someone who hasn't studied science (which presumably most of you haven't either) I have just done my best to grapple with what literature I could out there...weighing the arguments, and making my choice.
I'm actually most torn over the social responsibility angle, as I do agree with you all about the 'social contract' and potentially the idea of 'herd immunity'. I didn't make my decisions lightly, or based on just watching a few sensational You Tube clips. What people disregard though is that the safety of the current vaccination schedule is a contentious issue even in medical circles and between professionals - scientists, GPs etc.
I'm up with the pedestrian arguments re autism having no link to the MMR, the studies in Denmark etc. (So you guys watched the Vaccine Wars last week too.....hardly peer reviewed science there). Anyhow....even those crazy hippies, the Japanese Government, delayed their vaccination schedule for a time to see if it could be behind the epidemic rates of autism, ADD etc.
As far as I see it, there are risks with vaccinating and there are risks with not vaccinating...we have all made calculated risks with our children. I just don't have the faith in authority that you guys seem to have (governments, scientists bought out by pharamaceutical interests, lazy orthodox GPs).
- Matt
- February 09, 2011
"I only know this: at death, my death and suffering are my own, and I hope I will not blame my distress on the tiger (or cancer, or whatever) that has brought me down. Of the tiger I would simply hope to ask, 'Please, no waste.' And maybe growl along with her."
- Gary Snyder
- pinky tuscadero
- February 09, 2011
Also - for the record I know thimerosol was removed from vaccines. But doesn't that tell you guys something? There is no safe level of exposure for humans, to mercury (thimerosol) and yet that was routinely used in vaccines for decades.
Parents of children who have had adverse reactions to vaccines, or who simply regressed after their vaccines (verbally, emotionally), have a right to question the schedule, the ingredients, and the safety of vaccines. They don't deserve to be patronised or told they are just ignorant when they have legitimate heartache over the health and mental wellbeing of their children and feel there may be a link to the vaccines.
A child with an adverse reaction to a vaccine and a child who has contracted the disease are two sides of the same coin. Both situations are disastrous. I have made my choice on which is the risk I would prefer to run.
PS. Thea - you posted your link to the autism information after I posted my first comment - so I didn't ignore your offer of information. Just so you know.
- February 09, 2011
pinky tuscadero February 09, 2011 02:22 PM
It is not faith in authority that I have. I like to think that the people around me will take care of their health and so ensure the safety of my loved ones.
Your choice puts them at risk. Your expectation is that others have vaccinated their children and therefore yours are safe.
Perhaps you would like to share your sources so we can all be equally educated like you.
- February 09, 2011
pinky tuscadero February 09, 2011 02:33 PM
Every parent wants their child to be perfect. Laying blame for conditions that appear at various ages is a natural response to the challenges that conditions like autism create for parents. So there is a crowd who want to blame vaccinations.
As I am sure you are awar anecdotal evidence does not prove a link one way or another. There was an article on SMH yesterday saying that testosterone levels could influence autism in utero. Perhaps it is cheese. As a pretty newly named condition no one truly knows what causes autism.
Your sources please.
- I See Red
- February 09, 2011
@pinky tuscadero @ 2:22pm
"I just don't have the faith in authority that you guys seem to have (governments, scientists bought out by pharamaceutical interests, lazy orthodox GPs)".
Now, woah, back up the truck, sister. My faith in authority, be it govt, scientific, or over-educated African dictator, is sarcastically cynical at least and downright pick-axe wielding at best! Yes, that is an exclamation point.
It is simply a case of a reasoned, sensible, no hysteria fact.
If we don't immunise our children, we will lose millions to disease, not hundreds to autism.
Hard to swallow? Absobleedinlutely!
- pinky tuscadero
- February 09, 2011
You asked why I think its a complicated issue. I think its extremely complex. You have a system where routine batches of medication are given to all children, with no prior testing for any inherent vulnerabilities they may have, no reduction in dose according to individual babies and their size, other health factors, premature birth etc. We are allowing our children to be injected with multiple vaccines and there hasn't even been the level of research you would expect into the safety of injecting all these vaccines at once. We just presume everything's been tested and tested again..but then, hello, they pull certain drugs or batches off the market following an adverse reaction and this is so often because they are, in effect, experimenting on the current generation.
People also go on about the 'miniscule risk' of an adverse reaction. But the overhyping of the immune system, by bombarding it with so many vaccines in close succession may be causing wider damage (beyond the most dramatic cases). Why does every second child have asthma, ADHD, ADD or some other learning or respiratory problem today? It certainly wasn't the case when I was in school. I'm not saying I know vaccines are the cause, but I am saying I pause to wonder.
A throw away question to finish on: but why can't kids today just have chicken pox or have the flu? Remember when mothers would rush their kids over to pick up their dose of chicken pox when another child got it? We are so obsessed with our work schedules that we can't allow anyone to be sick for 5 minutes which would allow the illness to run its course as intended and provide lasting immunity (ie. no need for boosters).
- Shelby
- February 09, 2011
@Homer February 09, 2011 09:40 AM
Bloody awful story Homer, but I'm a bit confuzzled. Had your brother been vaccinated against whooping cough? If not I guess your parents were also dipsticks??? If so, the vaccination didn't work????
It seems that nature has a tyrannical way of pissing all over science's attempts to outwit diseases whose function it is to cull the population.
- andy
- February 09, 2011
Spiders have fangs and venom, to kill prey or defend themselves. We have brains, spray cans, brooms, and many deadly things. All seems natural to me.
- craig schwartz
- February 09, 2011
"pinky tuscadero * February 09, 2011 * 02:33 PM
Also - for the record I know thimerosol was removed from vaccines. But doesn't that tell you guys something? There is no safe level of exposure for humans, to mercury (thimerosol) and yet that was routinely used in vaccines for decades."
and removing it has made no difference to the incidence or otherwise of autism (or anything else for that matter). Doesn't that tell you something? The main reason they removed it was to stop nutjobs like you from using it as an excuse to not vaccinate. but once a nutjob, always a nutjob - you just find some other bogus excuse to put your child and everyone else's at risk of preventable diseases. you are probably one of these germ-o-phobe parents that stops your kids getting dirty and preventing the developing immune system doing what it is supposed to do, so it ends up overreacting to the first sign of anything. Asthma epidemic anyone? and FWIW - B.Sc. so i do understand the science.
I have a bad reaction to general anaesthetic. doesn't mean i am going to make do with a slug of rum and biting down on a bit of leather next to i have to have an operation. some people have reactions to some medicines. in practically every case, the risks of not taking the medication vastly outweigh the risks of taking the medications. vaccinations is one of those cases.
- pinky tuscadero
- February 09, 2011
February 09, 201102:39 PM
Fair enough comment. You say I am putting other people at risk, but its not that simple. Sometimes whole epidemics of diseases have been traced back to children breaking out with the actual disease following vaccination.
Am I any less responsible than parents of a premmie baby who is formula fed, low birth weight, who inject it against a sexually transmitted disease (Hep B) at birth? How is that responsible. Are they informed?
"Perhaps you would like to share your sources so we can all be equally educated like you."
I didn't say I'm deeply educated. I have read what I could find time to read (with a baby) in the media, from my osteopath, from speaking to the pharmacist who heads up an anti-vaccination group in SA. I am going on my instincts as to who to trust just as you are going on yours. But we can make a deal, I'll give you my sources if you'll post me your collection of flyers you picked up from the GP before vaccinating your child? K? That'll have me deep in concentration for all of 7 minutes.
Vaccines only cover certain dominant strains of the diseases, they can't cover every strain out there. In this respect they are more limited than people realise. Diseases are morphing and changing all the time, we can't necessarily keep up.
- pinky tuscadero
- February 09, 2011
craig schwartz
February 09, 201111:41 AM
@pinky tuscadero
Re 'live viruses' used in vaccines - you left out 'attenuated' - you do understand how the immune system works don't you? what do you think is getting into your 'gorgeous new born' when they actually catch measles, or chickenpox, or whooping cough. Full blown, 100% pure, live virus.
Yes. But the way these diseases approach our bodies in 'natural' circumstances is by way of, perhaps initially, the extremities, on the skin, via the respiratory system, and the worse it gets the more deeply it penetrates the body to the blood supply, organs, up to the brain etc. Every disease behaves differently. But with vaccines we just drop the attenuated live virus straight to the blood stream - inside with full access in the body. This is radical. It doesn't mimic the normal progress of disease. Couple that with the heavy metal preservatives also going straight inside the body. It mostly doesn't supply lasting immunity (as opposed to when you get a dose of the real disease), so we need further boosters over our lifetime.
The question remains also whether vaccines can be given full credit for ending polio, small pox etc.
I'm not saying I'm expert or fully versed on this. But then, your average parent just puts all their faith, and their new babies, in the hands of strangers, sometimes strangers with agendas other than benevolent ones (ie. pharmaceutical giants).
- craig schwartz
- February 09, 2011
pinky tuscadero February 09, 2011 03:45 PM
the whole point of an attenuated virus is that in an attenuated vaccine, live virus particles with very low virulence are administered. They will reproduce, but very slowly. Since they do reproduce and continue to present antigen beyond the initial vaccination, boosters are required less often. The reason we drop it straight into the bloodstream is because *that is where your white blood cells are* - you know the part of your immune system that actually gives you the immunity.
vs 'natural' ie catching the actual disease, in which you have basically unrestricted growth of the virus inside the body, while the immune system tries to catch up. give me controlled exposure via vaccination any day.
and the real thing does not give any better protection than a vaccination.
'heavy metals' is bogus - have you ever had a mercury filling or cooked with an aluminium frypan? the actual amounts used via preservatives and adjuvents is miniscule compared to the amount you get just from the environment. most of what makes up the vaccine is diluents (water) and stabilisers (gelatine etc)
see http://immunise.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/uci-myths-guideprov
if vaccinations didn't get rid of smallpox, what did? it was endemic in developing countries until a global vaccination program. i doubt 'better living conditions' did anything to eradicate it in africa and the subcontinent.
as far as 'putting your faith in strangers', why do you put your faith in people who are just as clueless as you are? and what possible benefit does a 'pharmaceutical giant' have in producing something that actually prevents people catching diseases, if not to prevent needless suffering and death because of those diseases?
- Tyu
- February 09, 2011
Thanks craig schwartz for not being aggressive and clear. I wanted to answer to pinky tuscadero but I think I would not have succeeded to stay polite.
- Thea
- February 09, 2011
pinky tuscadero said:
"Hey all - Thea, M,AJL, Stormy, I See Red etc. I don't mind the backlash from you guys - I know its contentious, and you would like to think I"m some stinky, romantic ill-informed hippy, just sittin here making daisy chains and saying "Not my child" on the vaccination issue."
-- No. People often call me a hippy. I have nothing against the flowery people :) and there's no reason you can't be both a hippy and a scientist.
"But that's not the case. As someone who hasn't studied science (which presumably most of you haven't either) I have just done my best to grapple with what literature I could out there...weighing the arguments, and making my choice."
-- Sorry, I have undergrad and Masters degrees in science. Part of what they teach you is how to be an informed consumer of the literature. Part of that is sifting the good research from the junk articles. It's a bit like climate science - 99% of scholars agree, but the 1% who disagree get a disproportionate amount of press.
You're also a bit confused: re superbugs. They have nothing to do with vaccination and everything to do with evolved resistance to antibiotic drugs. I'm not trying to have a go at you, we usually agree on most subjects and I respect your opinion, but I'm concerned whenever fringe theories (e.g. "vaccination is more dangerous than disease") are touted as scientifically valid.
- pinky tuscadero
- February 09, 2011
February 09, 201108:27 PM
Thanks for the civil friendly reply. I'm much more willing to listen when someone isn't boxing me into the 'stupid' category to make themselves feel comfortable about the fact there is disagreement with their views in the wider community.
That's the beauty of anonymous blogging though...any vaccinating parents that I've told I'm non-vaccinating have generally very politely said "each to their own". I will now know they really think my daughter is disease on legs and I'm the devil's spawn. Refreshing to know the truth!
An issue that the medical world needs to come to terms with is that we live in an age where more and more people are sceptical of orthodox medicine, they are educated and reading and they won't always just cow-tow to the experts. Rightly or wrongly parents who are sceptical of vaccines will not be convinced by being talked down to or having it insinuated that they are just dopey conspiracy theorists. If the ideal is 100% coverage they're gonna have to get better at selling the product.
Also, I thought it was a given that people realised that pharmaceutical companies have profit first people second. This colours all their science. So while its great that you - Thea - were taught how to discern between pseudo science and the real thing, I hope you were also taught to discern bw companies acting out of real need, and companies just upholding the status quo or having vested interests in plying the community with drugs.
- Homer
- February 10, 2011
February 09, 2011 03:02 PM @Homer February 09, 2011 09:40 AM
Had your brother been vaccinated against whooping cough? If not I guess your parents were also dipsticks??? If so, the vaccination didn't work????
We are talking over 40 years ago here. Back in the dim dark past, just as refugees from Vietnam were starting to arrive, whooping cough had virtually been eliminated, so the sense of urgency had gone - you got your free vaccinations at the start of your first year at school. He caught it 2 or 3 weeks after starting. Even if he had been vaccinated on day one, there wouldn't have been enough antibodies in his system at that point to ward it off.
- February 10, 2011
pinky tuscadero February 09, 2011 03:18 PM
I don't have children. That doesn't mean that I am any less aware of the damage that not vaccinating your child can do the the children I care about. It also doesn't mean that I am any less aware of the challenges that parents face every day in relation to their children. It does mean that I am not biased by having a child and therefore the hype and hysteria that surrounds the decision to have children.
So you get advice from someone who heads an anti-vaccination group. Not very balanced investigations then.
Never mind. If your child catches a terrible, preventable disease don't go suing the school or the parents will you? It was your choice to not vaccinate you see.
- February 10, 2011
pinky tuscadero February 09, 2011 03:18 PM
And I said equally educated not deeply. If you want to quote statistics and "facts" then you should be prepared to share your sources. If all you did was talk to people who are already hysterical about their cause then your investigation wasn't very balanced.
I am all for sharing beliefs and thoughts and ideologies and I am interested in reading the material you qote from and seeing the scientific data that demonstrates what you have quoted.
As I have already said I don't have children and if I did I would like to think I would be informed.
And I am sure by the time I would ever have a child then there would be a clause on enrollment seeking vaccination records or the child is not permitted to enrol in the school. That should keep everybody nice and safe.
- GYoung
- February 10, 2011
Saying you are justified squishing the spider because you "outlived it" is ethically invalid. You did it out of fear - an irrational impulse. Next time just throw it out of the house (or have your female friend do it for you given she's an enthusiast).
The reason for protecting any aspect of 'nature' should NEVER be "because it's beautiful!" because so much of it (usually the most important parts) are NOT. We should protect 'nature' because we cannot live without it, and since virtually everything about it relies on other parts of it, single species loss can have big impacts - who thinks krill are beautiful? But if they die off, so does the vast majority of sea life.
- pinky tuscadero
- February 12, 2011
So you get advice from someone who heads an anti-vaccination group. Not very balanced investigations then.
The group in question that I spoke to a representative of is linked to below. No doubt you will think they are hysterical, simply because they are commenting on a complex and sensitive topic, and have taken a perspective that puts them on the fringes of pubic opinion.
I see that the Age today in the GW and A2 has taken up this topic - pedalling pretty biased simplistic arguments -so anyone that dares to want to scrutinise the vaccination schedule is now lumped in with creationists and those who don't believe global warming is happening. Its very easy to smear people in national newspapers like this, but it says nothing about whether it is true or not.
As for other sources, I'm sorry but I had my daughter two and a half years ago and no longer have the articles on hand that I had at the time. I can provide two other sources I read. I read with a sceptical detachment as its by a homeopath and I'm not really sold on the science of homeopathy (as a layman), but as he is a practitioner who sees scores of patients I thought it was a worthwhile read for anecdotal information.
Vaccination & Homeoprophylaxis? A review of risks & alternatives (6th ed), by Dr Isaac Golden
Vaccine damaged children? Treatment, prevention, reasons, Isaac Golden
Also, FYI, currently if your child is not vaccinated they are able to attend childcare, kinder and school with a signed conscientious objector form in which you agree to withdraw your child for a period of up to 2 weeks in the case of an outbreak of a disease covered by vaccine.
- Ms Piggy
- February 12, 2011
I regret lashing out at people in my moments of anger and feeling hurt. I do not like to see other people's suffering even if they have brought it upon themselves. It does not give me any satisfaction to be mean to other people but more like sadness that I can be so unsympathetic.
I think some reflection of the past is good for learning and growth but not too much. Best to live in the moment and look forward to the future. Somethings are easier done than said but I read somewhere to keep reminding yourself to start again helps you to move one step at a time.
- two-minds
- February 13, 2011
I was microwaving something the other day and I looked over and there was a little cockroachy thing walking about INSIDE the glass..my first thought was EWWW followed by WTF..I am Microwaving something and this thing is sitting in there soaking up the rays like its in a solarium!
- February 13, 2011
pinky tuscadero February 12, 2011 01:56 PM
I have spent the past hour or so looking at the AVN web site. Looking at the headlines and reading the articles it comes across tome as being the Daily Terror version of a medical magazine. Even though there are references I am not sure how much of them are truly peer reviewed medical studies.
Any site that references Wakefield as being as demonstrative is deluded. 12 children out of hundreds of thoudans who have been immunised is not proof of anything. Stuff happens and it is not always good. Anecdotal examples can be devastating for the parents and yet it isn't a direct link to anything.
A dear friend of mine had her first child and it has Down Syndrome. Not proof that it is only women in their mid-thirties that have children with that condition, still it was terrifying for her.
Stuff happens and finding blame in something that has helped millions does nothelpanyone except to increase the risk for your own.
- ..."Boomer"...
- February 14, 2011
As some one who works out-side year round I see my share of critters such as snakes, deer, and insects. The insects are by far the worst problem, especially the hornets which react quickly if disturbed and I go home with multiple stings, sore in body, even sorer in pride.( you would think after many years I would know what to look for )Nature and survival is some thing we deal with but I would enjoy it more if it could be walled in and roofed over..."Boomer"...
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text:
Troop 28 Scout Master Rob Hillman, Robbie's father, explained that this project is fulfilling a goal of the CCT to encourage public use of conservation land.
"We're hoping by the end of this year, there'll be a complete trail system all the way through the property," said Hillman.
In 2012, an Eagle Scout from Cohasset's Boy Scout Troop 28 became a literal trailblazer. Robbie Hillman, then a 16-year-old junior at BC High, built a trail system and boardwalk in the George Ingram Park on Beechwood Street, a property owned by the Cohasset Conservation Trust.
Hillman's work earned him the rank of Eagle Scout, the highest a Boy Scout can achieve (in order to attain Eagle, a scout must have earned 21 merit badges and completed a service project that shows leadership skills and benefits a local community non-profit). The project also paved the way for future projects in the park, creating a system of boardwalks and trails.
Eagle Scout Adam Benson picked up where Hillman left off, clearing a path beyond Hillman's trail that could soon connect to the trail of another Eagle Scout — Kevin Mack, if another scout takes on that task.
Benson, a 17-year-old Cohasset High junior, also created a kiosk for the park, which is located at its entrance across the street from Heritage Lane (his older brother, Derek, is also an Eagle Scout).
A stone wall marks the start of Benson's trail, which begins where Hillman's boardwalk ends, continuing in a loop around the property.
Benson agreed to take on the project at the request of Gary Vanderweil of the CCT.
"They were interested in opening up this public land to everyone and building these trails," said Benson, to create an "open ended" walkway.
Troop 28 Scout Master Rob Hillman, Robbie's father, explained that this project is fulfilling a goal of the CCT to encourage public use of conservation land.
"It's something we're really excited about," Hillman said, adding that having several scouts contribute to the park project is "like having a civilian conservation core."
"We're hoping by the end of this year, there'll be a complete trail system all the way through the property," said Hillman.
Clearing a path
Benson's project was completed in November 2013 over five to six Saturday mornings for a total of 122.5 service hours. He enlisted help from 27 volunteers who assisted in the clearing and cutting of the trail as well as building and installing the kiosk.
Benson said that a team effort was the way to go.
"We divided it up and worked on different portions; it's the best way to get things done."
In addition to brush clearing, Benson said that he and his helpers also dealt with fallen trees.
"It used to be an old logging trail," the scout said of the area. "There were stretches of the trail that were really difficult while others just had to be raked."
The project helped him hone his leadership skills, Benson said.
"It teaches you responsibility when you're the sole person in charge. You have to not only make the plan, but execute the plan."
The scout also learned how to tackle obstacles, literally and figuratively.
"When you come across the tree stump in your trail, you have to decide what to do," he said.
While Benson said that he doesn't yet know where he would like to attend college or what he'd like to study after high school, he learned a lot from his project in terms of documenting a process, keeping track of receipts and purchases, fundraising and pitching to the Cohasset Rotary for sponsorship.
The project cost a total of $204.25, $200 of which Benson fundraised.
The best part of the venture is that the scout gets to view his own handiwork.
"It was definitely a fun project," Benson, who officially became an Eagle Scout in January, said. "I get to personally enjoy it myself.
"It's a timeless thing," he said of the trail. "It will always be here."
Hillman is proud of what Benson, his son, and future Eagle Scouts have and will continue to accomplish on the site.
"The CCT acquired the land, but the boys' projects have made it really accessible to the public," Hillman said.
Eagles soaring out of Troop 28
Cohasset's Boy Scout Troop 28 currently has more than 50 scouts. Eagle Scout Adam Benson, 17, who joined as a sixth grader, recalled that the troop was much smaller then.
"When I joined the troop, there were less than 20 kids; now there are upwards of 50," said Benson. "It's really grown."
Scout Master Robert Hillman said that among last year's graduating seniors, seven were Eagle Scouts; this year there are three.
In general, Cohasset's troop tends to turn out a lot of Eagle Scouts, but the scoutmaster said that the decision to become an Eagle is up to each individual.
"We don't make Eagle Scouts," Hillman explained. "We provide the support and the opportunity for them to achieve it, but they do all the work."
Nationally, only five percent of boys who join the scouts end up earning the Eagle rank. Hillman said that he's not sure why Cohasset tends to have so many.
"It's hard to say why Troop 28 has had such a high rate of scouts achieving that rank for the past few years," he said. "I expect that scouts who join our troop have fun with the camping, canoeing and general outdoor program and realize that they enjoy doing the things that lead to rank advancement."
Hillman said he's noticed over the years that Cohasset Boy Scouts are hard workers.
"Our scouts set high standards for themselves and generally provide a lot of support for one another in getting to Eagle rank," he said, adding that parents and volunteers help.
"We are lucky to have an excellent group of adult volunteers who help provide our scouts with the opportunity to earn merit badges, help with camping trips and allow our scouts to participate in national events such as the National Jamboree and high adventure camps such as the Philmont Scout Ranch in New Mexico."

subset: commoncrawl


text:
Other Patches
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Squid wrote:Ugh, I'm sorry... I thought I had an extra deviate hatchling but I just checked for it and it wasn't in my journal or on any of my bank alts. =( I must have sold it a while ago and forgotten about it.
Avarre wrote:would like to trade deviate hatchling for a magical stone.
Nomadd wrote:if whatever falls through, I also have a deviate hatchling that I would trade for the magic stone. My tag is nomadd#1518 - feel free to add me if you're still looking.
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text:
2014: For the second-straight season started all 12 games at defensive end ... Second among defensive lineman with 36 tackles ... Added one tackle for loss along with a team-best seven quarterback hurries ... Recorded six tackles in the win at Rice ... Had a career-best seven tackles at WKU ... Registered five tackles against Middle Tennessee ... Notched three stops in the overtime win against LA Tech.
2013: One of five defensive players to start all 12 games ... Finished the year with 31 tackles, 1.5 tackles for loss, two blocked kicks and two QB hurries ... Notched five tackles in the win at Idaho ... Had two tackles and blocked the possible go-ahead field goal in the win at Norfolk State ... Had four tackles and blocked a field goal in the win over CU ... Pulled down a career-high six tackles at UNC.
2012: Played in all 13 games, starting two ... Recorded 19 tackles on the year in two sacks playing defensive end and special teams ... Registered four tackles and a sack in his first career game against Duquesne ... Notched three tackles apiece against No. 18 New Hampshire and Richmond ... Also had a sack in the win over No. 18 New Hampshire.
HIGH SCHOOL: Played defensive end and wide receiver at Collins Hill High School for Kevin Reach ... Hails from the same high school as current Monarch quarterback Taylor Heinicke ... Named to the Gwinnett County All-Star Team at defensive end, First Team 7AAAAA Region at linebacker, and Second Team Gwinnett Daily Post All-Gwinnett County Team as a senior. .. Was also a three-time Gwinnett Daily Post Defensive Player of the Week and Preseason All-State selection ... Was also a Second Team Gwinnett Touchdown Club honoree at linebacker...Helped Screamin' Eagles to the first round of the Georgia AAAAA playoffs in 2011 ... Made 58 tackles, including 21 tackles for loss and 11 sacks in 2011 ... Also broke up 11 passes, blocked four kicks, and forced three fumbles ... At wide receiver caught eight passes for 116 yards ... As a junior in 2010, was a Honorable Mention Gwinnett County Touchdown Club honoree ... Made 63 tackles, including 21 tackles for loss ... His 18 sacks in his junior campaign not only lead the team but was third in the county ... Additionally, he had eight blocked passes and two forced fumbles ... Also had 11 receptions for 134 yards ... Helped Collins Hill rank No. 3 in the state and advanced to the Georgia AAAAA semi-finals finishing 2011 at 10-4 overall ... In 2009, was the only sophomore to earn a varsity letter as the Screamin' Eagles reached the first round of the Georgia AAAAA playoffs ... Had eight tackles on special teams along with a blocked kick and forced fumble ... Also was a state qualifier in track with the 4x400 relay team and took fourth place in the 7 AAAAA regional tournament ... Played basketball during the 2008-09 season helping Collins Hill to a 22-7 record, the Region 7AAAAA championship and a No. 7 ranking in the state.
PERSONAL: Born July 26, 1993 ... Son of Patrick Everett and Karen Reehling ... Has one sister, Kristen ... Majoring in business.


text:
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