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The Greatest Catastrophe on Earth
Interview with Peter Ward, author of "Gorgon"
|Ward believes that a lowering of atmospheric oxygen caused the P-T extinction, influencing the development of animals (ie. air sacs in birds).
Image Credit: NASA
Peter Ward's newest book, "Gorgon," is part travel journal, part scientific exploration. For over a decade, Ward hunted for fossils in South Africa's Karoo Desert, hoping to figure out what caused the Permian/Triassic extinction. This cataclysmic event 250 million years ago killed off 90 percent of all marine species and 70 percent of vertebrate land species. Some have suggested the P-T extinction was triggered by an asteroid or comet, like the one that killed the dinosaurs 65 million years ago, but Ward comes to a different conclusion.
Ward believes that a lowering of atmospheric oxygen caused the P-T extinction. These low oxygen conditions continued on through the Triassic and most of the Jurassic, influencing the development of animals that evolved during this time. Birds, for instance, developed their unique air-sac respiratory system because of this extremely low oxygen environment.
The reason the atmosphere lost its oxygen, Ward suggests, was because ocean levels dropped, exposing anoxic organic materials to the atmosphere. The newly-exposed materials oxidized, pulling oxygen out of the air, and the iron in these materials rusted, creating the red rock layers that are so distinctive in post-Permian geology. Explosive volcano eruptions from Siberia may have contributed to this loss of oxygen as well, expelling huge amounts of carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, methane, and other gases into the atmosphere. Whatever happened in the P-T, it happened on a geologically fast time scale, within 50,000 years or less.
In this interview with Astrobiology Magazine, Peter Ward explains how clues in the rocks point to a world that was nearly wiped clean of life.
Astrobiology Magazine (AM): How rare are Permian fossils compared to Triassic and Jurassic fossils? Reading your book, you get the sense that fossilized bones are scattered everywhere, once you know how to look for them.
|This gorgonpsid fossil was discovered in the Karoo region of South Africa.
Image Credit: South African Museum
Peter Ward (PW): There are definitely far fewer later Permian fossils than earlier Permian. To get a sense of how hard it is to find these fossils, while we were hunting for them in South Africa, looking right in the Permian rock layer, we would find maybe one fossil in an 8 hour day of searching.
The Gorgon is an extremely rare fossil – it has only been found in South Africa, except for a few in the Eastern Soviet Union. Collectors would pay any amount of money to get one, but they are literally priceless because they've never been sold. South Africa holds on to all of its fossils. The Soviet Union Gorgons were all sent to Moscow.
AM: You say in your book that while an asteroid impact has been suggested as a cause of the P-T extinction, follow-up studies have not been able to support that claim.
PW: I do not think that asteroid impact was a cause. There is a new paper just out that suggests that explosive volcanism can look like the remains of asteroid impact. The paper, by J. Phipps Morgan, et al., says that explosive volcanic eruptions are sometimes able to generate the shocked quartz, microspherules, and other geologic traces commonly attributed to large extraterrestrial impacts, while also triggering a mass extinction event.
AM: You come to the conclusion that the Permian extinction was caused by lower O2 in the atmosphere, and suggest this was due to the lowering of oceans and the subsequent exposure of organic-rich sediments. What caused the ocean to lower in the first place?
|At the P-T boundary, the rivers go from meandering to braided, indicating a catastrophic loss of land plants.
Image Credit: University of Birmingham, UK
PW: The sea level will drop if the climate cools and the icecaps build up. But in the case of the Permian, we know it was hot. When there's a lot of heat, the ice caps melt, ocean levels rise up and continents are flooded.
But the sea level also will change if there are plate tectonic heat flow changes. The mid-oceanic ridges are basically huge underwater mountain ranges, with huge trenches at the places where the plates spread apart. If there is a lower heat flow, these spreading centers in the middle of oceans reduce in size. The ocean has a constant volume, so if there's a big hunk of rock in the ocean, that's going to make the oceans rise higher. But if the great underwater mountains drop down into the trenches, the sea level will drop too. So with a lower heat flow, the spreading centers get colder, they take up less space, and the ocean water level drops.
AM: You mention that plants cause rivers to meander, while the loss of plants leads to braided rivers. At the P-T boundary, the rivers go from meandering to braided, indicating a catastrophic loss of land plants. Would this plant loss have contributed to the lower O2 of the Triassic, or do you think that plants recovered fairly rapidly?
PW: Even with the catastrophic loss of land plants, the amount of O2 in the atmosphere wouldn't be affected that quickly. Ocean algae, and especially the blue green algae, which is a bacteria, do more than land plants for atmospheric O2. We don't know if there was a comparable extinction in sea plants, however.
|After the Cretaceous extinction that killed the dinosaurs, ferns were the only plants left.
Image Credit: University of Texas
There is good evidence that the Triassic was a quite dead place for a long time. What we find at the Permian extinction is that there are almost no plant fossils. Certainly there are plants that survived, but there was a huge Permian plant extinction that caused whole classes of land plants to disappear. For instance, Glossopteris fauna once covered the Earth, and they disappeared entirely. Its closest modern relative is the ginkgo.
Plant pollen is a better reflection of diversity than fossils, because pollen is extremely tough, and preserves throughout time. Yet during the interval at the end of the Permian, there is no plant pollen – only fungal. So what we see after the Permian is a dead world, with fungus as the last surviving plant life. There may have been ferns, too. Ferns are a great survival species. After the Cretaceous extinction that killed the dinosaurs, ferns were the only plants left. After the Mount St. Helens eruption, ferns were the first plants to recover.
AM: The ancestors of mammals are the cynodonts, which survived the P-T extinction. Why wouldn't mammals have retained the cynodont capacity to exist at lower O2 levels?
PW: Mammals survived only at very low size. There were no large mammals until oxygen went up again.
We don't know about mammals with low O2 capacity, except for those that live at the highest elevations. For instance, the South American alpacas and llamas. They have special respiratory capabilities – they have very big chests and big lungs – and their blood has more hemoglobin. There's no way to tell from the fossil record how much hemoglobin an organism had. We can tell whether they had big chests, though.
|The ancestors of mammals are the cynodonts, which survived the P-T extinction.
Image Credit: BBC, UK
AM: Has a direct link been established between the mammal-like reptile cynodonts and modern day mammals? Or could mammals have evolved independently as an example of convergent evolution?
PW: No, we are definitely part of the surviving stock going back to mammal like reptiles – there are just too many similarities in head and bone anatomy for it to have been convergent evolution.
AM: You say that the air sac system in birds make them very efficient at oxygen acquisition. How does that correspond with the 'canary in the mine shaft' scenario? Wouldn't canaries be more efficient at breathing the available oxygen than the miners?
PW: But it is usually not low oxygen that kills the miners – it is methane, or carbon monoxide. Because birds are so good at extracting gas, these gases kill them even faster than they do us – carbon monoxide, for instance, binds on the oxygen sites.
AM: Are there other animals that evolved during the Triassic that also show evidence of adaptation to low atmospheric O2?
PW: In the oceans there are plenty. Most ammonites are thought to be low oxygen creatures, as were many of the Triassic clams. The oceans were very anoxic at that time, yet zillions of clams lived right at the minimum amount of oxygen. The Triassic is a very boring era – there is just not much diversity.
AM: Why are Permian rocks "green," as you describe them in your book? And why do the rocks go from green to red at the P-T boundary?
|According to Ward, a mmonites are thought to be low oxygen creatures.
Image Credit: UCLA
PW: If you dig down, right now, where you are, you can go very far down and still get oxygenated soil. But when you start digging down in the ocean, you don't go very far before you hit black anoxic soil. That's how it is for soil from the Permian, too. There was so much vegetation, so much organic matter, that oxygen couldn't percolate very far down. When that type of sediment turns to rock, it is a kind of an olive brown color.
When you get soils that have little or no organic matter, on the other hand, you usually find that the rocks are red. That's because the iron and minerals in the soil oxidized, or rusted, when exposed to oxygen. With the loss of plants after the Permian, there was less organic material. The soil became better oxidized as grain size led to more porosity.
We're forming red beds all time, today, in places that have very hot, dry conditions, like the desert. So the red beds of the Triassic indicate desert-like conditions. We move from the plant-rich Permian world, to the hot, plant-poor world of the Triassic.
AM: Why would warm-bloodedness have evolved from the low O2 conditions of the Triassic, as you suggest?
PW: It may not be a reaction to the oxygen, but to temperature. If the world is a desert, there is very little humidity, and it gets very cold at night, even in the hottest desert. I think that the warm-blooded adaptation may have helped mammals and birds survive in an all-desert world.
Related Web Pages
The Great Dying
Asteroid Caused Earth's Largest Mass Extinction
First Complete Fossil of Fierce Prehistoric Predator Found in South Africa


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How To Visit Amazing Khao Yai For As Low As P650 A Day
Step into Europe just 3 hours from Bangkok
Located just 3 hours away from Bangkok, the picturesque town of Khao Yai couldn't be more different from the bustling city. Apart from quirky European villages and some of the most bizarre accommodation options, Khao Yai is also home to Thailand's largest national park where wild elephants roam free (scroll down for pictures!).
The best part? You can Tripsle yourself a hassle-free private car charter to visit at your own leisure for as low as P650 per person per day.
Before you read on, check out what the Tripsle Team got up to in Khao Yai in this video!
How To Get There
The Tripsle Team with our trusty drivers!
The easiest and most convenient way to get to Khao Yai is by car from Bangkok. Tripsle offers custom tours from Bangkok with your own personal driver.
You can opt for pick-up from either Suvarnabhumi Airport or Don Mueang International Airport – simply look for the Tripsle signboard outside the Arrival Hall. Alternatively, if you're intending to stay in Bangkok for a few days first, you can also opt for convenient pick-up from your hotel lobby.
Choose from two different vehicle types: car or van. The car can accommodate up to 3 people and the van up to 10 people. Depending on your holiday plans, you can also choose from 1-Day, 2-Day or 3-Day packages.
Each custom tour includes the following at no additional cost:
12 hour charter service (per day)
Air-conditioned vehicle
Experienced driver
Fuel costs
Toll charges
Car seat (available on request)
Tripsle Pro-Tip: Stay connected on your Khao Yai holiday with Tripsle's unlimited 4G WiFi 7-Day SIM Card and have it installed for you while you wait for your driver at the airport!
When To Visit
Strawberry picking at Strawberry Love.
Saraburi Sunflower Fields. Source.
Khao Yai is full of things to do all year round, but some seasonal attractions such as the Saraburi Sunflower Fields, Jim Thompson Farm and strawberry picking only open in the cooler months of November through to January.
Yellow Submarine Coffee Tank. Source.
Between weekdays and weekends, it's a good idea to have a mix of both. When the Tripsle Team visited on a Monday there were few other tourists and we had the place to ourselves most of the time. However, certain highlight cafes such as the Yellow Submarine Coffee Tank only open on weekends.
Tripsle Pro-Tip: It's best to sit down and decide which attractions you'd like to cover and make sure they are open before you pick a date to visit! Check out some Khao Yai highlights below.
1. Sample wine produced entirely in Khao Yai at PB Valley Estate
If you thought wine was only produced in cold European countries, think again! PB Valley Estate is the largest vineyard in Khao Yai and the birthplace of the Khao Yai wine region!
Sample a range of white, rose and red wines and enjoy a delicious Italian lunch at the in-house Terano Restaurant. Wine tasting starts from 150 baht in the comfort of an air-conditioned room overlooking the sprawling vineyards.
Photo by Shawne Koh.
You can even learn about the process of wine-making with a wine tour that will take you through the delicate steps of producing locally brewed wine.
Our favourite was the rose, but even if you're not a fan of wine, you can try a glass of pure Shiraz grape juice!
Address: 102 Moo 5, Phaya Yen, Pak Chong Nakorn Ratchasima 30320 / Thailand
Website: http://www.khaoyaiwinery.com
2. Bask in endless flower fields
You don't have to travel all the way to Provence to frolic in lavender fields when you have one right here in Khao Yai!
The Bloom is home to a multitude of different flora and fauna that bloom throughout the year so you won't have to worry about when you arrive in Khao Yai! This is the perfect alternative to the Saraburi Sunflower Fields or Jim Thompson Farm if you happen to visit when these parks are closed.
Guests can also choose to stay at The Bloom if they wish with a variety of different themed rooms to choose from.
Address: Phaya Yen, Pak Chong District, Nakhon Ratchasima 30320, Thailand
Website: http://www.thebloom.co.th/
3. Enjoy a royal high tea at Thames Valley
From castles to moats and even the iconic phone booth, Thames Valley is the perfect place for every London-fan!
The iconic bridges and castle-esque buildings are only accessible by hotel guests, but you can still enjoy a very English Afternoon Tea for about 450 baht at The Castle Restaurant & Tea Room. The tea set comes with scones, finger sandwiches, cakes and a pot of tea perfect for sharing with your BFF.
Food aside, the restaurant is filled with bookshelves and delicate cutlery – it's every shutterbug princess' dream come true!
Address: 999 Moo 4, Moosi, Pakchong,Nakorn Ratchasima 30130
Website: http://www.thamesvalleykhaoyai.com/
4. Stay in a caravan that goes nowhere at Casa De Montaña
Ever wanted to try caravan living but don't know how to drive? Make your dreams come true at Casa de Montana!
Visitors can choose to stay in one of the many stationary caravans dotting the park that each come fitted with a bed big enough for 2, kitchenette, toilet and sofa! If you're worried about the sweltering Thailand heat, don't worry! Each caravan is air-conditioned.
Address: Mu Si, Pak Chong District, Nakhon Ratchasima 30130, Thailand
Website: http://www.casa-de-montana.com/
5. Live out all your Lord of the Rings fantasies
Photo by Shawne Koh.
Hide in your own hobbit hole at the Hobbit Hotel, also known as Baan Suan Noi! Middle Earth is just a 45-minute car ride away when you're in Khao Yai!
The owners have paid extreme attention to detail and have recreated the hotel in every likeness of the popular Lord of the Rings franchise. Visit the tavern, or play dress up with many different costumes to choose from.
If you're not a LOTR fan you can dress up as Harry Potter or even Elsa from Frozen, but how you'll fit into this little Hobbit Town we have no idea!
Address: 292 Moo 15, Tambon Lat Bua Khao, Sikhio, Nakhon Ratchasima, 30340, Thailand
6. Make animal friends at Primo Piazza
Make like Snow White and get acquainted with furry animals at Primo Piazza! It costs just 100 baht to feed alpacas, merino sheep and even donkeys, and you'll receive a 10% discount for food and beverage with the same coupon as well!
If you're lucky, the keepers will even let you into the pen to take some close-ups or #selfies with the friendly animals. Don't be shy!
Address: Mu Si, Pak Chong District, Nakhon Ratchasima 30130, Thailand
Website: http://www.primopiazza.com/
7. Spot baby elephants on a Night Safari
By far one of the greatest highlights of Khao Yai is the opportunity to spot majestic wild Asian elephants roaming free in their natural habitat! Even though there are close to a few thousand elephants in Khao Yai alone, it is still extremely rare to be able to spot them.
There's even an elephant shrine in Khao Yai National Park itself testament to the reverence and respect the locals have for this incredible animal. The best way to see them is to book yourself into a Night Safari tour at the visitor centre at the National Park (4 people for 500 baht). The guides are extremely knowledgeable with eagle eyes that can pick out any moving animal in the dark like civet cats, porcupines and deer.
Simply ask your friendly Tripsle driver to book you in for a session and chance to glimpse the elusive Asian elephant.
8. Have dinner at Midwinter Green
Photo by Shawne Koh.
Feast on delicious pizza and other Western dishes in the beautiful castle setting of Midwestern Green. This extensive compound features several turrets and brick walls similar to that of Scottish castles in the countryside.
The staff highly recommend the Midwinter Pizza with their own refreshing take on the Italian staple – the pizza comes folded and served in a manner similar to pita bread.
It's also the perfect venue for weddings and celebrations – something you can consider if you're looking for a unique way to spend an occasion!
Address: Nong Nam Daeng, Pak Chong District, Nakhon Ratchasima 30130, Thailand
Website: https://www.facebook.com/MIDWINTERGREEN/
Europe is just 3 hours away!
The next time someone says Europe is expensive, think again!
Tripsle me to Khao Yai!

subset: commoncrawl


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University professors make developments in cancer fights for humans, dogs
By Susan Szuch
March 30, 2015
For Tim Fan, Ember was more than just a hound dog. Ember, who was bred for research purposes, was one of the first dogs used in the process of testing the effects of PAC-1 drugs on dogs, which work to cause cancer cells to self-destruct while preserving healthy cells. After the studies are co...


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Food Glorious Food
by Patrick Holford & Fiona McDonald Joyce.
Patrick Holford is founder of the Institute of Optimum Nutrition (ION) and one of the UK's best known nutritionists. Fiona McDonald Joyce trained at ION and also at the Leith School of Food and Wine. I believe this makes her a fully qualified nutritionist foodie!!
This dynamic duo have product the most fantastic cookbook. Yes, this will sit on the shelf alongside my other cookbooks (I have to confess to being a bit of a cookbook addict!) and I shall be just as likely to dip into Food Glorious Food if I am looking for mouthwatering recipes for a dinner party as I would any of my other treasured cookbooks.
Recipes are inspired from around the world, so you can still have your favourite Indian, Caribbean or Chinese food. And the recipes really are a delight. You will find everything from Thai Fish Cakes to Chocolate Hazelnut Brownies, Greek-style Stuffed Pork Tenderloin to Bloody Mary, Sea Bass with Braised Fennel and Roast New Potatoes to Strawberry and Banana Cheesecake and many more. So please, don't think of this as a diet book. This is a book that celebrates the pleasure of food.
Food Glorious Food takes this pleasure a step further. Now you can enjoy delicious food that also positively promotes health. Part One of the book is called 'The Health Bit' and Patrick explains more about the various nutrients we need; the GI (glycemic index) and low-GL (glycemic load)foods; superfood secrets; cholesterol-busting foods; cooking methods; and much more. There are helpful illustrations and charts throughout. Not only will this information help anyone who is watching their weight and wishing to boost energy levels, but eating a low-GL diet is also proven to prevent diabetes, heart disease and cancer.
Good nutrition is about using fresh, high quality ingredients which provide maximum flavour as well as maximum nutrients. In Part Two 'The Delicious Bit', Fiona expands on the information already presented by Patrick. She discusses the cuisines of different countries and highlights the superfoods from each of those cultures, as well as possible pitfalls; she provides menu ideas for entertaining; and then the recipes begin in earnest! Fiona provides a foreword to each recipe describing the benefits of the individual ingredients and also serving suggestions. Cook's Notes at the end provide allergy information (a large percentage of the recipes are wheat and dairy free, many are gluten free), indicate suitability for vegetarians, and whether or not the recipes can be made in advance and / or frozen.
Dr Fedon Alexander Linberg, author of The Greek Doctor's Diet says "Food Glorious Food' will revolutionise the way you think about healthy eating." I wholeheartedly agree! Buy yourself a copy now, and a few extra copies for Christmas presents!.
Available at www.piatkus.co.uk, www.patrickholford.com
and Amazon
Reviewed: November 2008


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The news
September 15, 2020
Due to the current health crisis, linked to Covid-19, the Pollutec exhibit is POSTPONED 05 - 08 october 2021, Lyon, Eurexpo (France). We will be there and look forward to welcome you to our stand.
February 05, 2020
AREAL will be present at the Pollutec exhibit december 01 - 04, 2020 , Lyon, Eurexpo (France). Don't miss the reference event for environment professionals.
Novembre 26, 2019 : Visit us at the Carrefour des gestions locales de l'eau exhibition January 29 & 30, 2020, Rennes (France) - Stand 5-39.
September 05, 2019 : IWWEF WATERTECH exhibition September 18-20, 2019, JAKARTA (Indonesia). AREAL will be present alongside its partner WIRATAMA ABADI.
August 06, 2019
Next exhibition : Intelligent Building Systems Paris (France). More information
March, 2019
Read the last Newsletter TOPKAPI N°25 :
INTERFLEX : Smart Technologies for the Smart Grid
January 2, 2019
All AREAL team sends you his Best Wishes. We wish you an excellent Year 2019.
December 17, 2018
All AREAL teams wish you a Happy New Year.
September 24, 2018
Next exhibitions : Intelligent Building Systems Paris and Pollutec Lyon (France). More information
April 30, 2018
A new booklet about AREAL and TOPKAPI is available :
more information
March 6, 2018
The document about the compliance of Topkapi versions with Windows OS has been updated :
more information
January 2, 2018
All AREAL team sends you his Best Wishes. We wish you an excellent Year 2018.
August 29, 2017 :
> TOPKAPI participates in the demonstrator of the Smart Grid European project INTERFLEX alongside :
More details coming soon...
August 28, 2017
> IBS (Intelligent Building Systems) exhibition october, 4&5 2017, PARIS Porte de Versailles. Booth AREAL n°E13 pavillon 2.2.
> Pollutec Morroco exhibition october, 24-27 2017, CASABLANCA (Morocco). AREAL will be present alongside its partner SOHIME company.
January 2, 2017
All AREAL team sends you his Best Wishes. We wish you an excellent Year 2017.
December 12, 2016
Read the last Newsletter TOPKAPI N°24:
October 19, 2016 : VIETWATER exhibition november 9-11 2016, Hô-Chi-Minh-City (VIETNAM). Booth VUCICO A06.
October 10, 2016 : IBS (Intelligent Building Systems) exhibition november 8-9 2016, PARIS Porte de Versailles. Booth AREAL n°E14 pavillon 2.2.
September 02, 2016 : Pollutec Maroc exhibition october 5-8 2016, CASABLANCA (Morocco). AREAL will be present alongside its partner SOHIME company Booth n°H01.
July 06, 2016 : Visit (video) of AYSA control room San Martin Plant in Buenos Aires (Argentina) click here
April 07, 2016 : IWWEF WATERTECH exhibition 3-5 May, 2016, JAKARTA (Indonesia). AREAL will be present alongside its partner WIRATAMA ABADI company Booth N°18.
March 23, 2016 : publication of a new document on the compliance of Topkapi versions with recent Windows OS click here
March 08-10 CFIA exhibition coming soon
February 2016 : FileFTP communication protocol supports now Primayer Xilog+ and Paratronic LNS equipments more information
January 26-27 Carrefour des Gestions Locales de l'Eau exhibition coming soon
October 21-24 Pollutec Maroc exhibition coming soon
October 7-8 IBS exhibition coming soon
September 15-17 Smart Industries exhibition coming soon
September 1st, 2015
Welcome to the new AREAL website which aims at providing you more comprehensive information about TOPKAPI. We invite you to register to access the forums and a broader content.
Any comments and suggestions to improve the effectiveness of the site will be highly appreciated.
December 2-5, 2014
LYON (France)
Thank you for visiting us at International exhibition of environmental equipt and services
December 18, 2014
Read the last Newsletter TOPKAPI N°23:
- SYNDICAT DE L'EAU DU TREGOR: Integrated calculation functions optimising the yield of drinking water networks
- YPFB BOLIVIA: Loading stations: sql at the heart of the hydrocarbon delivery mes information system
- LILLE METROPOLE: SIG – TOPKAPI interfacing
November 12-14, 2014
Hô-Chi-Minh-City (VIETNAM)
Water Supply & Sanitation event
October 15 - 18, 2014
International exhibition of environmental equipment, technologies and services
October 1 - 4, 2014
NEUQUEN (Argentine)
Exhibition of the industry of oil, gas and other energies
September 24-25, 2014
May 29, 2014
Mrs Cristina Kirchner, President of the Republic of Argentina, inaugurates the Berazategui waste water treatment plant, "del Bicentenario", in the suburbs of Buenos Aires.
Operated by AYSA (Aguas Y Saneamientos Argentinas) with a TOPKAPI SCADA centralized control application, this plant has a capacity of 30,5 m3/s for a 4,5 millions population..
March 19-21, 2014
KUALA LUMPUR (Malaysia)
Booth DP CONTROLS N° K515
Click here for Former news...


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Colorado and Arizona State got a little beef stewing in the closing moments of today's Pac-12 Tournament game. Up by nine points with eight seconds to play on their way to the win, Buffaloes guard Tyler Bey went for a dunk, and the Sun Devils didn't react too kindly.
Colorado coach Tad Boyle came off the sidelines to help break up the skirmish. Before he could even get there, though, he tweaked something in his leg:
"The doctor usually doesn't give an injury report on the coach, but the doctor said I've either torn or strained a calf muscle," Boyle, who was in a walking boot after the game, told ESPN. "But it felt like somebody hit me with a golf ball or shotgun there as I ran out. So I don't know what happened. But it doesn't feel too good."
Hopefully more like being hit with a golf ball than with a shotgun.


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We wake, if we ever wake at all, to mystery, rumors of death, beauty, violence. . . . "Seem like we're just set down here," a woman said to me recently, "and don't nobody know why." Annie Dillard, Pilgrim at Tinker Creek
Not long ago I posted the following on Facebook: What books have changed your life? I don't mean which books do you think are "greatest" or at the top of the "Great Books" canon, but which books came along at just the right time in your life and changed something significant? The response was fascinating, with dozens of my Facebook acquaintances (and theirs) listing interesting and eclectic offerings from Dr. Seuss to Dostoevsky. Over the next few weeks I'll be sharing a few of my own life-changing titles—please share yours and let's keep the conversation going!
At a writer's workshop several summers ago one of the writing coaches gave us writer wannabes a terrific question to ask every time we write. "With Middlemarch and Pilgrim at Tinker Creek in the world, why would anyone be interested in this?" Over the twenty years or so since I read Pilgrim at Tinker Creek for the first time, I have occasionally mentioned to friends whose opinions I highly respect how the book has influenced me. More often than not, my friend has replied that she read it years ago and didn't finish it, or he confesses that "I just don't get it." One said "I didn't like it much when I read it, but I've never been able to forget it." I understand these reactions—Dillard's 1974 Pulitzer Prize winner is odd, quirky, eclectic, and one-of-a-kind. And it has helped me to see the world around me and myself differently.
Our life is a faint tracing on the surface of mystery, like the idle, curved tunnels of leaf miners on the face of a leaf. We must somehow take a wider view, look at the whole landscape, really see it, and describe what's going on here.
Annie Dillard is an intense observer of details, capable of seeing things that escape the notice of just about everyone. She finds worlds of complexity and interest in the tiniest matters—I often think of Dr. Seuss's Horton Hears a Who when I read Dillard. But I have encountered skilled natural observers before—what makes Dillard different is that she invites the reader into a new kind of seeing altogether. Given, as she writes, that most of us "waste most of our energy just by spending every waking minute saying hello to ourselves," how do we learn to get out of the way and see what is actually there instead of what we expect to see?
There is another kind of seeing, which involves a letting go. When I see this way I sway transfixed and emptied. The difference between the two ways of seeing is the difference between walking with and without a camera. When I walk with a camera I walk from shot to shot, reading the light on a calibrated meter. When I walk without a camera, my own shutter opens, and the moment's light prints on my own silver gut. When I see this second way I am above all an unscrupulous observer.
And what Dillard sees is that "Terror and a beauty insoluble are a ribbon of blue woven into the fringes of garments of things both great and small." From the slow-train-wreck horror of watching a giant water bug paralyze a small frog then suck the frog's insides out through a puncture hole to the gratuitous beauty of a mockingbird free-falling from a five-story roof only to swerve and land light as a feather just a couple of feet before crashing into the earth—just because it can—Dillard finds that we are surrounded by endless details that belie our constant attempts to categorize and "figure out."
Dillard is not the least bit hesitant to ask the big questions that arise from her intense attention to detail. As she describes it in another of her books, she continually participates in "unlicensed metaphysics in a teacup." Our attempts to understand the big picture, however, must always begin with what is the case rather than what we would like to be the case. This requires learning how to see unfiltered.
What we know, at least for starters, is here we—so incontrovertibly—are. This is our life, these are our lighted seasons, and then we die. In the meantime, in between time, we can see. The scales are fallen from our eyes, the cataracts are cut away, and we can work at making sense of the color patches we see in an effort to discover where we so incontrovertibly are. It's common sense: when you move in, you try to learn the neighborhood.
Practicing this sort of seeing was an "eye opener" for me (pun intended), opening previously undiscovered pathways I had always longed to follow. They led to ways of thinking about God that blew me away.
We have not yet encountered any god who is as merciful as a man who flicks a beetle over on its feet. There is not a people in the world who behaves as badly as praying mantises. But wait, you say, there is no right and wrong in nature; right and wrong is a human concept. Precisely: we are moral creatures, then, in an amoral world. The universe that suckled us is a monster that does not care if we live or die—does not care if it itself grinds to a halt.
Pilgrim at Tinker Creek is packed with page after page of excruciatingly detailed observations of violence and ugliness in the natural world, to the extent that my students sometimes wonder why Dillard finds it necessary to pound her readers over their heads with a basic fact: Nature is both violent and beautiful, deadly and life-giving. "Enough already!" they complain. Dillard's point is not to fill up pages but rather to force us to face the implications of what we are seeing, including what these truths tell us about what is greater than us. What sort of being or process is responsible for this?
How many people have prayed for their daily bread and famished? They die their daily death as utterly as did the frog, people, played with, dabbled upon, when God knows they loved their life. In a winter famine, desperate Algonquin Indians "ate broth made of smoke, snow, and buckskin, and the rash of pellagra appeared like tattooed flowers on their emaciated bodies—the rose of starvation, in a French physician's description; and those who starved died covered with roses." Is this beauty, these gratuitous roses, or a mere display of force? Or is beauty itself an intricately fashioned lure, the cruelest hoax of all?
Dillard knows full well that such Job-like challenges to the Divine are "out of bounds" in many circles, but she isn't having it. "We are people," she writes, "we are permitted to have dealings with the creator and we must speak up for the creation. God look at what you've done to this creature, look at the sorrow, the cruelty, the long damned waste!" As she asks elsewhere, "What the Sam Hill is going on here?" The fact is that what we are seeing is not what we would expect to see in a natural world created and overseen by a benevolent deity. Setting aside traditional constructs and concepts, Dillard freely explores other possibilities.
Could it be that if I climbed the dome of heaven and scrabbled and clutched at the beautiful cloth till I loaded my fists with a wrinkle to pull, the mask would rip away to reveal a toothless old ugly, eyes glazed with delight?
I had wondered about this since my early years as a young Baptist boy, but this was the first time I found it in print. And it inspired me to fearlessly track what I see to what might be behind the scene—regardless of where it might take me.
But as Dillard regularly reminds her readers, terror and beauty are intertwined in our world, so intimately that our attempts to separate them will invariably fall short.
No, I've gone through this a million times, beauty is not a hoax—how many days have I learned not to stare at the back of my hand when I could look out at the creek? . . . Beauty is real. I would never deny it; the appalling thing is that I forget it.
When I remember to get out of my own way, Pilgrim at Tinker Creek serves as a standard for me, a standard of how to see differently. This theme of learning how to truly see weaves through many of the texts that have influenced me over the past several years—Annie Dillard was the first to introduce me to it.
The secret of seeing is, then, the pearl of great price. . . . But although the pearl may be found, it may not be sought. The literature of illumination reveals this above all: although it comes to those who wait for it, it is always, even to the most practiced and adept, a gift and a total surprise.


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Online Rich media advertising and Mobile advertising will be the winners in the media meltdown of 2009
The advertising outlook for 2009 looks resoundingly is bleak. Following a downturn in revenues for 2008 and the fact that most forecasters see this continuing through 2009 and 2010: the worst years of decline since the Great Depression. But ! and there is a big but here, Online and digital advertising channels are the the only ones predicted to outshine the doom and gloom and grow even in a downturn . This forecast view seems to be apparent across a number of forecast agencies , from the digital to traditional , there a a glimmer of optimism in the air.
In Jack Myers' recently -updated Media Business Report, he forecasts traditional media outlets will take major hits in 2008 and 2009;
"The brunt of the 6.9 percent fall-off in 2009 ad spend will be felt by newspapers (-15.0%), Yellow Pages (-14.0%), consumer magazines (-13.0%), radio (-12.0%), local television (-10.5%), business-to-business and custom publishing (-9.0%), and broadcast network television (-4.0%). Even online media will feel the pain, with projected overall growth of a meager 2.7 percent. Online display ads are forecast to grow only one percent, with search engine marketing increasing 8.0% and online video, search engine, widget advertising increasing at a 25.0% rate to $1.5 billion. Online growth will pick up again in 2010 with overall 8.5% increases."
What's forecast to grow, if anything? Search marketing, online video, (rich media) widgets and Mobile advertising. The real star being mobile that jump 30 percent this year and another 15 percent next year. By the time the economy begins to regain steam, mobile advertising will jump another 30 percent in 2010, he forecasts.
Rich media and it recent upgrade to Digital Interactive media has greater increases in brand metrics than standard web ads. Experientially they impacts attitudinal metrics, such as message association, brand favorability and awareness, more than non-rich media and allow the incorporate video streaming of original content and help drive users to generate it and share it. With the coupling of transactional systems scuh as CRM and e commerce , the media buy can become a pure sale or pure consumer acquisition.
Mobile is definatly the flavour of next coming years . With SMS or text messaging is running hot as "Texting" has reach and ubiquity . Its simple medium with reach of 160 characters and the possibly of a hyper link . MMS banner ads on WAP sites are a little richer in content and interactivity but are not ubiquitous because few people have data plans that can access WAP pages the estimates being between 10% and 15% of all cell phone users.
Where the predictions for mobile seem to be going it just might Voice! Voice or sound is an interesting medium as it has no barriers to the existing 5 billion phones in the world. Just how intimate or intrusive it will be is another question. If my cell phone became a message bank a for un-announced advertisers I would not be happy but if I am opted in to a premium audio experience it's richness because of its intimacy would make it influential and experientially based . It may well be the way to reach a massive audience with a unique , engaging and compelling experience.. And everybody can get it regardless of plans and standards.


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Richard Prince Sued by Photographer Patrick Cariou
Patrick Cariou appears to have a better case than I first thought. Take a look at these examples where Richard uses most of the image and then add to that the possibility that Patrick's images have appeared in a gallery at some point in time. There certainly is a case for harm to the potential market for the original copyrighted work which along with the amount of the image used is the main test for infringement in this case (that's how I see it anyhow).
Here's my previous post:
Cityfile has the exclusive (here) on a lawsuit filed by photographer Patrick Cariou against Ricard Prince, Gagosian Gallery, Lawrence Gagosian and Rizzoli International Publications in federal district court (here).
Unlike the most well known instance (here) where Prince appropriated another photographers work for his art, the images he used this time are owned by an individual photographer (from Patrick's book Yes Rasta) and not a corporation. This should be a very interesting test of fair use because from what I can tell he's taken only parts of Patrick's images combined them with other images on a canvas and painted upon them.
I think this is going to be a tough case for Patrick because of the following:
"The fourth fair use factor – effect upon the potential market or value of the copyrighted work – considers the extent of harm to the market or potential market for the copyrighted work caused by the new work. This test evaluates the potential as well as actual financial harm to the original copyrighted work, as well as to current and potential derivative works.
The United States Supreme Court has declared this fair use factor the most important element of fair use. Therefore, those who wish to use another's copyrighted materials without permission must decide whether or not their utilization of the copyrighted material is going to harm either the present or potential market for the copyrighted work." (from PubLaw.com)
I've tried to argue in the past that photographers enjoy the benefits of fair use all the time when taking pictures that have copyrighted material in them but Richard Prince certainly takes this idea to the extreme every time.
There Are 91 Comments On This Article.
I wonder if anyone has ever tried to appropriate one of Prince's works? The reason I ask is, that when the Cowboy copyright issue first came to light, I thought it would be kind of fun to post one of Prince's creation on a blog, divide it into a few hundred pieces and then invite artists to reuse a piece in one of their own works. Would Prince sue? Based on how I read the law, I'm guessing he probably would and he would probably win. Hence no blog. Fair use is a tricky matter.
If anything, this is great publicity for Prince.
I'm not a lawyer so I have no idea how this will play out. But if the case were based on common sense instead of the law, I think it would be an easy decision for the judge. I'm not sure which is more absurd–that people pay so much for his photos of photos he didn't take, or that the law allows him to do it.
I explored a range of strong emotions on this topic on so many levels.
The big question photographers need the answer to is;
"Would Cariou have been better off if he had incorporated and sued as a business, rather than on the copyright infringement as a singular artist with copyright ownership?"
What Richard does is similar to what we hear in rap tracks in that he remixes other photos into new visual art. I think that if he gets a proper license (like what a rapper must do) from the original artist then cool but if not then he's gonna get sued.
Hey what if I take photos of Princes work then remix it into my own and make millions? Would Prince sue me? Bet on it.
@Giulio Sciorio, I agree. Prince should have to license these images from Cariou.
If he decides not to, and Prince sells the work, then Cariou should get a percentage of the sale, based on what percentage of the work is his.
@Giulio Sciorio,
In response to wondering if Mr. Prince would sue someone who took his artwork and used it for there own. Well someone did just that in NYC and Richard didn't sue but actually bought one of the pieces. He encouraged it. I personnly don't like his work, but if he did sue someone, he probably would be considered a hypocrite. I don't know the artist's name, but I know someone who knows Richard and heard it directly from him.
@Annomonuss Bleek,
Of course he encouraged it Prince makes millions off or wealthy that have nothing better to do with their money. If he ripped off one of my images and made millions with out my permission and license I'd drop kick his ass down Broadway.
What Prince does is no different, if less skillful, than what Robert Heineken or Robert Rauchenberg have done for decades. Thomas Ruff has made a career for himself from "appropriating" work from others. I find certain aspects of this form of art compelling and others maddening. If someone takes an image and truely transforms it ala Rauchenberg or Heineken I have to say I'd be thrilled to have my work stolen for such purposes. But it's always humorous to me reading art critics blather on about these guys who simply copy an image, enlarge it 20 times and sell it for a couple hundred grand. At least in this case Prince is manipulating the stolen images. Which is more interesting than his "re-creations" of vintage muscle cars.
@Robbie, Beyond theft of work – another other question comes to mind – our responsibilities to each other as artists.
The photographed subjects who released permissions to Cariou, are in fact, living people. They trusted that he would care for the images, and their use. I suspect there was an understanding, prior to shooting.
Should Cariou have to answer the telephone calls from any of his subjects, their family members, or worse any group representing the Rasta culture, regarding the misuse of the photographs by another artist? An artist who did not ask permissions for usage? I think it is a precarious position to put another artist in the hot seat, while the benefiting artist marches on their merry way. Let's not even begin to talk about stomping all over the original photographers "vision" of how his work should be displayed.
The subjects used are living people, and not objects. We aren't talking about an object, such as a can of soup. Thankfully the can of soup won't get it's feelings hurt because it was betrayed or embarrassed publicly. It's worth discussing.
As photographers must build trust with subjects. Sometimes this can take a long time to develop and nurture. I find the issue bothersome, because in one fell swoop, the act of one artist can have trust evaporate for other photographers.
ie: Mapplethorpe and the NEA. Greenburg's Atlantic Mag fiasco and it's future affect on trusting future photographers.
It's the pebble in the pond….
@Debra Frieden, fear trust fear. I don't get fear. Especially fear about art.
Ever since the photograph was invented, people have been manipulated to look one way or the other. A photograph in itself is a manipulation of reality. It's been a tool for generations to make a statement of one kind of another.
Eddie Adams lamented his photo of the General executing a viet cong prisoner in Saigon because the general was demonized from all sides.
I suppose the point is, manipulating people in photographs isn't new and any "future" effect it would have on "trust" has already happened and has been happening for decades.
And that is why photography is so powerful.
@craig, This topic is a great discussion. I agree, photography is extremely powerful.
Actually, I find the issue of the models' consent a compelling legal factor in two ways:
1) We keep discussing the issue of the copyright, however I am curious if the model would have a case if they decided to sue Prince for violating their right of publicity?
For instance, the cowboy in his "marlboro man" Abell appropriation consented to Abell using it as a Marlboro ad, but did he consent to his image being used to advertise the Prince show on public banners in NYC? Were I the cowboy's lawyer (I'm not a lawyer), I might argue that the use was clearly as an advertisement for the exhibition (which you have to pay to attend) and therefore brought his "art" into a commercial context.
2) Similarly, I wonder if Abell could make the argument in court that while the use as "artwork" may be covered by fair use laws, the use as an advertisement for the exhibition should not be. The Guggenheim charges admission to see the exhibition, so it brings the work into a commercial context.
3) In the case of the rasta men, I would not assume that Cariou got a model release from the subjects. It is possible then that Prince's appropriation could engender a sense of distrust and make it less likely they would consent to Cariou's subsequent use of the photos in a commercial context, essentially rendering the images unlicensable. This would very directly damage the market value of the photographs. I think it's very possible that the "rasta man" photographed would not feel great about his likeness being pasted next to the naked women in the Prince painting.
@dude, In a very real sense, the answer is, "It depends on where everybody is."
For instance, if Mr. Prince tried his little games in Illinois, and I were the subject of one of his pastiches, I could nail his hide to the wall the instant he made his *second* print, under 765 ILCS 1075, the Illinois Right of Publicity Act. One thousand dollars in statutory damages, fees and costs, even if I can't prove any real damage or profits, and if I can, they're all mine.
(Note: while I am a lawyer, this is not legal advice and may or may not apply in any given situation. Consult an attorney licensed in your jurisdiction with specific legal questions.)
@StMarc, Absolutely right! Each state has it's own statutes, but national, & international laws are variable also.
Jurisdiction and their laws. This is where the lawsuite with Virgin mobile ad in Australia got sticky with regards to a photograph taken from Flicker of a girl from Texas. I never did know how that turned out. Did they settle?
@Debra Frieden, I don't know how it came out. Given Virgin's army of lawyers and extreme compartmentalization, as well as jurisdictional issues, I suspect either she got nothing or a token settlement.
@Robbie, Great work btw (visited your website).
Curious questions:
Ethics in the art establishment – It will be interesting to see if any of the national associations (art and photographic) who deal with establishing ethics criteria in the art world will cover this issue in the near future.
Art Galleries – Where does a gallery's responsibility begin or end, promoting artwork by one artist, which includes original content by another (unrepresented) artist.
Let's break it down simplistically. Two sources gain financially, the gallery, and the artist. But not the photographer, who in fact owns the full copyright. Clearly a gallery profits from the sale of Prince's work.
The questions on the table are:
Where does the financial infringement of a copyright end?
Is it strictly with the artist?
Or does it then attach itself to any party or entity who also financially gains from the sale of the piece?
It is clear without the photographs OWNED BY CARIOU to begin with, the Prince artwork would be gutted of composition, therefore affecting the sale value greatly.
Secondly, I would think a gallery would blush with embarrassment that their own artist could not produce their own photographic content to use in their "vision" for a body of work.
Sheer laziness on the part of the artist.
@Debra Frieden, if there is a way to make an art gallery blush with embarrassment, I would like to see it done. They lost any vestige of the ability to be embarrassed by what they hang on the wall decades ago.
@StMarc, lol, they aren't ALL bad! You must choose better galleries……so you aren't completely jaded.
@Debra Frieden, I think you misunderstand me. Even the most prestigious and well-esteemed galleries regularly hang "art" that any competent ten-year-old would be embarassed to have his friends see that his mother left on the refrigerator from when he was five.
I have a friend who's a tenured professor of art at a state university and is fairly successful in the art world. They've told me flat out that they've made pieces (and whole series of pieces) just to see if anybody would say to them, "That's not art, that's you having us on." So far, no luck. Unless you count the whole, "People gave me a truckload of money for them" thing as luck. They were literally laughing all the way to the bank, by personal report.
There is an abundance of crap out there, I agree. I avoid galleries who push the Emperor's New Clothes garbage. I think alot of galleries are folding under the current market pressure. Hopefully the market will shake out and the higher quality work will sustain and survive.
I wonder if andy warhol got permission from campbells soup.
I'm not sure patrick has a case here, either legally or morally.
@craig, the difference being, there is no copyright in the appearance of a soup can nor does it have a right of publicity.
@StMarc, I would put dollar to donuts that the campbells soup can is at the very least trademarked among other things.
I can't speak to the letter of the law, but the "spirit" of the law is that a trademark is meant to connote a source of origin. It's my understanding that the standard for trademark protection is based an the assumption of a "reasonable person". I don't think any court would rule that the Warhol soup paintings would lead anyone to believe that they originated from the Campbell's Soup Co.
@craig, as dude points out, trademarks are of little utility in battling "fine artists." This was even more true back when Warhol was doing his thing. Today at least they could try to use the TDRA on him, although it still wouldn't work.
@StMarc, I can clarify this. Campbell's hadn't copyrighted the design on the soup can. Warhol simply got lucky.
I saw Richard's show at the Guggenheim last year, didn't know much about him and was very impressed by much of the work. But i'm a novice to his lawsuit history. Has he been sued by Marlboro before? If I was Patrick, I'd certainly be pissed about Prince using my work on multiple levels, and definitely consider a case. There also has to be a difference between Prince ripping off a solitary artist's work and a corporate ad campaign.
I really like what RP does by changing the mundane, and the non-art into art. I think its provocative and quintessentially post-modern. It also is just plain ballsy by pushing the limits of copyright, and making a disgusting amount of money doing it. Ethically, and morally, totally wrong. But he certainly is providing a great topic to discuss, as we see in this forum alone .
Can I just say I hope they nail his thieving, no-talent, self-righteous hack ass to a barn door and set him afloat in the middle of the ocean?
I mean, I'd describe how I *really* feel about Mr. Prince, but people might think I was being overly harsh.
@StMarc, This is by far my favorite summary of how I feel. Not overly harsh. Dead on.
I really love Patrick Carious work. He has a very unique look and feel to the quality of his work. It has a beautiful poetic harmony.
@ StMarc: aye
@ Jesse: I honestly don't see any difference between appropriating artwork created by a solitary artist and that of a corporate ad campaign. The primary difference between the two is the ad campaign was created for a purpose different than the art piece, but both may have been created "artfully" and by a single artist, or both could be created by a team of artists. To me, it doesn't matter. The intent of the original piece has been altered (absconded) in the appropriation (appropriation, a nice word for "theft"). As has been stated already, it seems most often the original artist doesn't give their permission for the use or receive any profits from the derivative work.
You get paid for derivatives in your commercial/editorial work don't you?
I guess the old adage, slightly modified, applies here also:
"Those who can't do, appropriate"
Thinking also of P Diddy Daddy Puffy.
@Mike Shipman, To clarify — The alterations of Prince (why doesn't he just change his name to a symbol, I wonder? Oh, yeah, that's already been proven not to work), in my mind, are not extensive or derivative enough to be seen as "original". In the Marlboro Man as well as Cariou's work, the majority of the piece is still recognizable and could be perceived by a casual viewer not familiar with the original artist (or of Prince and his machinations) as possible variations created by the original artist or originals created by Prince, thus creating a misunderstanding of the actual ownership (or creator) of the original image/artwork. Such confusion could certainly affect the notoriety of the original artist, especially if the appropriator had better name recognition, exhibit contacts, and promotion to be able to overshadow the original artist and also essentially appropriate the original artist's identity (it's entirely possible that Cariou would be seen by some as the copier of Prince's work).
Perhaps this is Prince's purpose. Not that I want to justify him in any way, but maybe he thinks art (or the subjects of art) doesn't "belong" to anybody. This is my impression and interpretation of his practice of appropriation. It is certainly paying off for him so far, anyway.
That montage above – Emperor's New Clothes boll*cks. what's that all about? My 4 year old is doing stuff like that in "art" class.
This isn't photography- it's taking the p*ss.
I find it ironic that people have their panties in a bunch over Richard's use of these images when we all line up to shoot almost free editorials. Come on, its a singular work. Not like shooting for Interview where they pay you your $25 a roll and make thousands of copies. I know I know, we shoot editorial for publicity. Do you think Patrick's book was better known before, or after Richard used the images.
@Tri-Delt, Hmm that's a P Hilt*n marketing angle in the works there. Any press is good press? The difference is Cariou didn't want Princes' help with marketing the book/photographs. The photographs were solid on their own merit.
Actually, considering Patrick's book was already published by Powerhouse (a major photo book publisher, not some obscure basement operation) and since they do a good job of promoting their titles, I think it was known just fine.
If you shoot free editorial, that's fine, but the main issue is you're consenting that Interview can use your images. It's like the difference between having consentual sex and being raped.
@dude, I've seen where Patrick's book is: in the pH warehouse on Main St. in DUMBO awaiting the remainderman. No offense to Patrick.
I don't understand the big deal. I see no harm in these images being used in a single piece by Richard. It doesn't harm the work. I can't really equate that with rape, you know, forceable sodomy, compared to a painting/collage. Lets all remember its a single piece, not multiples. I am amazed by the anger generated by Richard. Its like people haven't absorbed the last 40 years.
@Tri-Delt, you mean, "Except for the pages from it hanging in Prince's studio."
The fact that Cariou's book did or did not sell through is entirely irrelevant to whether or not Prince stole from him. I wouldn't care if he'd never sold a single image. And, despite the implication of the original post, neither does the copyright law, at least in terms of whether what Prince did was lawful.
Cariou might be the least successful photographer in the world, but as soon as he publishes the book and sells one copy (thereby monetizing his work) it has a valid market value. His case would be supported by the fact that Powerhouse has invested many thousands of dollars in publishing and promoting his images.
A) It's an analogy.
B) It's the difference between an act which involves mutual consent and mutual benefit versus an act which involves a forced imposition without the consent of one of the parties and unequal benefit, with the offending party receiving much more benefit.
Sorry to describe rape in such clinical terms, but really in the end, it's all about consent since the physical act isn't the issue (there are lots of kinky people out there), but the motivation, consent (or lack thereof) and aggression between the two parties. It's about a lack of an agreed upon contract, either legal (in this case) or social (in the case of rape).
(Wow this thread is offering lots of opportunities for interesting posts.)
Any uptick in Cariou's book sales will likely be a blip and over as soon as this case is out of the news. It does however change the long term market value (and also change the perception of authorship and origin).
Maybe Sam Abell is a bit more pacifist or zen or "evolved" and turns the other cheek (although he looks pretty pissed off in that PDN video interview) but the fact is, everyone now knows that image as a "Richard Prince" piece.
@dude, I disagree. I think now everyone knows it is stolen PATRICK CARIOU work.
@Debra Frieden,
I disagree – anyone who buys the Richard Prince exhibition catalog, not to mention the million dollar painting, does not know it's stolen PATRICK CARIOU work. They think they're buying a Richard Prince work.
@dude, Anyone who invests in RP's art, will have the knowledge of the current litigation. I would hesitate to underestimate the intelligence of an art collector in this pricing range. Let's not dumb down an art investors knowledge of his art and artists within their collections, and when it comes to this price bracket, they more than likely, have someone they turn to to keep them informed (what's hot, what's not, is there investment a solid one, and why). They will know it is Patrick Carious images now that the issue is on the table.
@Debra Frieden, "their" not "there"…..more Starbucks please!
@Debra Frieden,
Most art collectors would probably know that he "appropriated" someone's art, but I'm not convinced that the majority of them could name the artist who originated the images (except the few cases where people have made a stink about it). Perhaps the select few who have the inclination and funds to buy a Prince work would do their research, but most wouldn't.
I definitely think most tourists milling around in Chelsea on a weekend would not know whose work it is.
This topic creates all sorts of interesting questions for me.
My next question arises regarding the importance and need for model releases. When they are required, when they are not.
When I submit to photography competitions and contests I am required to have model releases on file. Very curious when this becomes unnecessary in the arts/photographic world.
Suspend the copyright issue. Are model releases required within this scope (Prince/Cariou question)? What are the model release requirements or non requirement issues with living persons used in art media?
Would love input on this area.
@Debra Frieden, model releases are unnecessary for artistic and editorial work. Work presented in a gallery setting (including a photographer's website) is in the clear.
I am surprised to hear an arts competition requires them. Either that's a case of over cautiousness or ignorance of the law.
Its like museums that forbid photography in general confound me as well with that bit of irony…
@craig, I was speaking of photographic competitions. Smithsonian Magazine has a competition, National Geographic, M.I.L.K. and many others……they want model releases on file. It's part of their entry requirements.
Many friends do not enter because they cannot meet this particular area of the criteria for entry.
@Debra Frieden, Bizarre, its not like national geographic has releases on file for each and every face that come into their pictures in a feature. Besides being unnecessary, its completely impractical for an editorial entity to do so.
I think its a case of overly cautious lawyers run amok and not wanting to deal with people saying "I don't want my picture in national geographic!", even if such usage is entirely legal.
@craig, you are correct, in my opinion. Many of these contests seem to use a set of copy-and-paste rules that incorporate what are essentially perpetual copyright assignments along with full liability warrants. I won't enter them and usually send a nasty (but polite) letter to the editor when Carolyn Wright (the Photo Attorney) mentions them on her blog. I never get an answer, although if the contest is big enough once in a while they get enough static to change the rules. PDN did this a while back and were shamed into fixing it.
@Debra Frieden,
the possible need for model releases for these works lie deep in the contest rules which now often state that once an imager is submitted it can be used by the people running the contest however they like with no compensation. this would include commercial areas.
@brugen, Exactly, I warn photographer friends about this very thing. Read the fine print. The only competition I entered this (recently last) year, which gives full license for usage is the Sony World Photography awards, as it relates to the competition. My thinking is if I placed anywhere in the top spots, the marketing and advertising benefit alone is worth more than the prizes. I couldn't pay for that slice of premium advertising on my own. Sometimes you have to take a leap of faith, and hope for the best. This is a personal choice of course.
@craig, Wow which museum forbid photography? I can't imagine….you must live in a very conservative area.
@Debra Frieden, I run into it from time to time. Sometimes it is practical – no flash photography for instance, because the flash can harm delicate works. But I recently came across some large outdoor installations on a university campus that had a "DO NOT PHOTOGRAPH" placard next to each one. Mind you these were outdoors. In public. And passed by thousands of people every day.
I took a picture…
@craig, Ah, I see, you mean actually photographing work within museums. I thought you were talking about curators not wanting to exhibit photography as an art medium. Sorry, I misunderstood.
Yeah, they post it because they don't want their work manipulated…..strange how that works……
@craig, good for you. A law that can't be enforced, won't be enforced.
Was this a public university or a private university? Were the items visible from a public way? I went to a private university which had some godawful "modern" sculptures on the area just outside its arts center: since it was in the center of campus I suppose they could make a claim that failing to observe posted signs was trespassing. Weak tea, however.
I seem to remember hearing about some flap with the big Anish Kapoor "Bean" sculpture in Grant Park in Chicago and how the artist threatened to sue people for taking pictures of it (it's got a very cool, highly polished, reflective chrome surface).
I don't suppose this is enforceable or legal (?) – especially since the work is in a public park, paid for with public funds and so on.
I know… you are a lawyer, but you may or may not be licensed in your jurisdiction, and this is not legal advice. ;-)
@dude, I am not familiar with Mr. Kapoor's taking any such actions, but it's certainly possible. What I *do* know is true that for a time the park guards would stop anybody with a nice camera from taking pictures of it and tell them it was illegal. They've mostly stopped doing that and have generally been responsive, as a whole, to public pressure on the issue.
Cloudgate was not in fact purchased with public funds, it was a gift to the city. Mr. Kapoor retains the copyright and the people who manage the rights *will* respond adversely to any attempt to commercially exploit images of it. However, it's in a public space and non-commercial photographs are completely legal. You *do* need a permit for large-scale photography or cinematography in the park, and that caused some confusion at first – some people thought the permits conveyed a release or licensing rights, and they do not. The City doesn't have the right to grant any such release or license. Other people thought that meant without a permit you couldn't take pictures in the park, and that is likewise not true. The permits are just to prevent large-scale disruptions without due notice and to help pay for increased police presence when a permitted activity is taking place.
@StMarc, I once knew of a lawyer who got the small circular piece of land around and under the sculpture as part of contract for the artist, even though it was in a public viewing area. Don't ask me, I do not know HOW or under what circumstances this was accomplished. I wish I could tell you more, it's been a long time since this happened. I can't remember all the details, but there was alot of happy winking going on with this little addition when it was agreed upon by all parties. Smart lawyer.
@StMarc, This was a public university, and the works are literally in the public way – some are mounted in outdoor paths. They are huge works, one was a good 3 stories tall.
I'd also heard about photographing the bean… absurdity. Why put it there if you don't want people to take pictures of it? The ultimate in delusion.
@craig, please see above response.
@Tri-Delt: The difference being, I chose to shoot that editorial and I chose to take what they gave me and I chose to give them what I gave them. I could, if I wanted to, just walk away. Mr. Prince, like all thieves, does not give his victim the choice of whether to be robbed. He just does it and blames you for leaving your property where he could get at it. Whatever is not nailed down is his, and whatever he can pry loose is not nailed down.
@Debra/Craig: Actually likeness release law (usually referred to as the "right of publicity") is heating up in recent years. A little-known Illinois law, for instance, makes what "everybody knows" about model releases – that they're not needed for noncommercial/editorial/artistic/whatever uses – not true anymore. Several other states have similar laws or recent court decisions regarding non-released usages. The real answer is to consult a lawyer licensed in your jurisdiction and familiar with the relevant law. Note: I am a lawyer, but I may or may not be licensed in your jurisdiction, and this is not legal advice.
@StMarc, I always get model releases. If they aren't interested in signing, I thank them for their time, and move along.
@Debra Frieden, may I ask if you have had your release vetted in the past few years by an attorney in your jurisdiction?
I ask because in my opinion, even the ASMP ones are iffy and are due for an overhaul.
Always a great idea to have the fine print reviewed! A more tempting method of action would be to have a Rep or Senator sponsor and introduce a new piece of legislation to protect GA photographers, which is current with the issues before us in contemporary society. Or at minimum, an amendment to current law. More teeth.
@StMarc, Got any links to such cases? I'm interested. A quick google turns up illinois new right to publicity act (10 years old now), but basically it codifies the need for written permission for commercial works, and explicitly exempts editorial and art.
It does extend right to publicity to a person's descendants though.
all the legally goodness: http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs3.asp?ActID=2241&ChapAct=765%26nbsp%3BILCS%26nbsp%3B1075%2F&ChapterID=62&ChapterName=PROPERTY&ActName=Right+of+Publicity+Act.
@craig, this law does not seem to have been extensively litigated, and the few appeals cases I've found on it were brought by people who were using it incorrectly. (One notable case was a fellow accused of shady dealings who tried to stop newspapers and TV stations publishing his picture on the grounds that they are commercial entities. Didn't work.) Very few lawyers, even other IP lawyers, even know it exists. When I tell them about it they are usually very surprised.
I think you may be reading it overbroadly. It specifically says that the art exception is for a single and original piece of fine art. The instant you offer a limited edition of *two* pieces, you are no longer within its protection. Make a photograph, do whatever you want with it, hang it wherever you like. And sell *it.* The single photograph. But make multiple prints, and you're offering a commercial transaction and you need a release.
Note: I am a lawyer, but I may or may not be licensed in your jurisdiction, and this is not legal advice.
@Marc, come on. If Prince wasn't selling no one would care. Its not like Nike used his images in an ad campaign, on their website, and in print collateral and then cited fair use, making hundreds of thousands of copies for purely commercial purposes. There is a distinction. This is what fair use is for. It benefits all photographers, and it can taketh away.
@Tri-Delt, *I* would care. I've issued takedown notices to people who were running "free" websites and stole my work. (One of them serendipitously ended up in jail.) Fair Use is one of the most misunderstood and misapplied doctrines in all of law and it does not mean you can take my stuff and do whatever you want with it as long as you wear a funny hat and use words like "oeuvre."
My work may be crap but it is MY WORK and I do not like thieves. To them I say, "Get your own crap." Why can't Prince just get a master subscription to iStockPhoto and peacefully mutilate all the images he wants in perfect legal bliss? Why must he take things he has no rights to? Could it be that the original source is a lot more important than he wants to admit?
I'm curious about possible damage and loss of income to the original photographer if the second (i.e. Prince) is of greater fame. From here on out the image becomes Prince's by perception, true?
Richard Prince=Ex-lax
It looks like prince got really carried away this time
And I hope he's gone get punish big time for this
I get a kick out of this stuff.
There is not a photographer living that doesn't break the copyright law to some degree, usually daily.
A chevrolet, a cigarette, somebody mowing their lawn all have either copyright, trademarks, or personal use rights that a good lawyer (if there is any such thing as a good lawyer) can't argue a compelling case.
Personally I think Richard Prince and his Monty Python effects are just middle of the road 1970's graphic art but you have to hand it to him, he knows how to get publicity.
Regardless of his motivation as photographers we can't have it both ways. We can't scream copyright, ownership and plagerism and then turn and shoot everything that passes in front of our lens for free, just because we want to.
But does it really matter?
@bcooter, I agree – while I don't personally find it tasteful, I can't get too upset about it without feeling hypocritical.
There's the whole I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend your right to say it, to this.
And artists complaining about someone else's art… doesn't get much lamer than that.
@craig, Amen.
@craig, a thinking person would do well to remember that the right to speak freely does not necessarily include the right to be taken seriously. When presented with arguments which essentially boil down to, "I think it should be legal to steal stuff I don't want to pay for,"in the Real World, my first response is usually genuine Amusement – call it patronizing, in the original sense of the term, in that I tend to respond much the way you'd respond to a six-year-old asserting that they don't have to go to bed if they don't WANNA.
This seems to really infuriate people, but as I like to say, "'Nice' is not in my job description." As a much *wiser* man once said, "Against the assault of laughter nothing can stand." There is much dreck and codswollop in this world and people need to be more assertive about pointing it out. My right to laugh at them is every bit as sacred as their right to say stupid things, and every bit as important.
@craig, Lame is being too lazy to create your own artwork.
Actually, most photographers DON'T violate copyright law – that's why most of us don't get sued or draw criticism as frequently as Prince does. It's all about the issue of origination.
To take your example, when you take a picture of a Chevy, nobody thinks the picture IS the Chevy, or that the picture was produced by Chevy.
The issue with Prince is that he is taking a 2 dimensional work and reproducing it in it's entirety in an exact analogue and crediting himself as the originator of the work.
To further back up my point, if some other company started producing cars that looked exactly like Chevy and had a Chevy logo on the grill, then you can bet Chevy would take issue because the implication is that the faux-Chevy originated from the Chevrolet Motors Corporation. The logo falls under trademark law (a symbol connoting a source of origin) and patent law would cover the design of the car (a specific, original design, aka "invention" in patent-speak).
This was illustrated a couple years ago when a Chinese company showed a pretty close knockoff to a BMW at the Frankfurt car show, and that didn't even have a BMW logo on it – it was just a very, very similar (read: knockoff) design.
What about a portraitist who ask anyone he photograph's
Copyright forms and fees here for photographers interested:
@Debra Frieden, it should be noted that there is a substantial discount for filing copyright registrations online, as well as a MUCH faster response time. The eCO site is not the greatest but once you figure it out you can go pretty fast.
@StMarc, Don't you just love that they made it so easy for us? I should have posted the eCO link. Good idea.
I have found the easiest (and most cost effective) registrations are via my published works (books), which include large collections of photographs. Series of photographs which are considered one body of work.
Fees drop considerably if you have your photographs organized into a structure like this. If they meet the copyright submission requirements, then it really is a beautiful thing.
@StMarc, Another way to cover alot of ground for $35.00 via the copyright office, is for photographers to register their website. I registered both my text and photography images. You can copyright text alone, or images alone, either and/or both. I chose BOTH.
It is broad sweeping, a low fee, and all the database files will be recorded properly.
It's a little bit of a pain, but photographers should definitely take the time and register, register, register.
@Debra Frieden, I know you know this…….thought since the subject came up, emerging photographers building their websites might be interested in the above. Above post was for them. :-)
All I can say is, get 'em Patrick!! I've been hoping someone would sue this ridiculous 'artist', Prince, ever since I've heard of him. How empty of a person to you have to be to completely ride on the coattails of other people's work because you can't think up something yourself, perpetuate it as your own fresh vision, and call yourself an artist?
I could make really beautiful artwork too if I took pictures of National Geographic magazines and blew them up the size of a wall, but I still have a soul.
Richard Prince and his dealers are despicable humans. They should be forced to disgorge all the profits they've made over the years and distribute them to the original creators of the images.
"Making art" does not excuse brazen thievery. Art is no longer a noble profession; the art world is a cesspool of aesthetically gifted money-grubbers and their con artist dealers.
Hanging would be too good for Richard Prince and his ilk.
My open letter to Richard Prince:
A year ago, the NY Times ran an interview with one of the photographers Richard Prince "appropriated". The man shot one of Marlboro's famous cowboy ads, and anyone who's shot LF in the wilderness (in winter, no less) knows how labor-intensive it is, not to mention the analog workflow once the shots are completed.
Fast-forward to the present, and Prince sells a low-quality copy of that photo for a record-breaking $1.2 million. The original photographer's tone was polite in the interview, but it must have been infuriating to have this hack profit so handsomely off your work. I've heard the arguments defending appropriation and the "statement" it makes; I won't make any blanket condemnations of the practice but at some point common sense must prevail. Prince is a well-paid thief with some flimsy art-school concepts to stand behind, and I'm rooting for him to lose every lawsuit that comes his way.
I apologize if any of this has already been mentioned in above comments.
thought you would like to know: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/23/richard-prince-artwork-copyright-breach


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Check out P + H [Prod. By DJ Dahi], the latest from Dom Kennedy. The track was released on Thursday, June 21st, 2012. Dom Kennedy's chances in this game are improving with each new release, and P + H [Prod. By DJ Dahi] is no exception - quite the opposite, in fact. It's a nice addition to the impressive catalogue Dom Kennedy has been building over the years. We're definitely anticipating the next move.
Hear more of Dom Kennedy on Gold Alpinas [Prod. By DrewByrd], featuring Rick Ross. Check out Dom Kennedy's profile page for the most recent info, news, songs, and mixtapes. Check out Dom Kennedy's Facebook and Twitter.
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Path 26
CREDIT: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Path_26
CREDIT: http://www.energy.ca.gov/maps/infrastructure/3part_southern.html
CREDIT: http://www.energy.ca.gov/maps/
CREDIT: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Path_15
In winter, the Pacific Northwest needs power for heat – and must import it from So Cal.
In summer, the Pacific Northwest has excess power – and exports it to So Cal.
"Paths" are the major transmission lines that form the "grid" – which connect geographic areas covered by utilities.
Of interest here are the "paths" that transmit power north and south in California. These path make the importing and exporting of power possible.
These paths were built in the 1970s and 1980s in order to provide California and the Southwest with excess hydropower from the Pacific Northwest without actually having to construct any new power plants.
During the cold Pacific Northwest winters, power is sent north due to heater use. This transfer reverses in the hot, dry summers, when many people in the South run air conditioners.[11] In order to do this the maximum south-to-north transmission capacity is 5,400 MW for most parts,[8] but between Los Banos substation and Gates substation, there were only two 500 kV lines.
The capacity at this electricity bottleneck was only 3,900 MW, and this was identified in the 1990s as a trouble spot, but no one acted upon it.[2] This bottleneck was one of the leading causes of the California electricity crisis in 2000-2001. To remedy this problem, WAPA along with several utilities built a third 500 kV line between these two substations to eliminate this transmission constraint and raise the maximum south-to-north transmission capacity to 5,400 MW.[2] The project was completed under budget and on time on December 21, 2004.[12] California's governor, Arnold Schwarzenegger attended the commissioning ceremony at California-ISO's control center in Folsom.[12]
Path 26 is three 500 kV lines with 3,700 MW capacity North to South and 3,000 MW capacity south to north. Itl inks PG&E (north) to SCE (south).
Path 26 forms Southern California Edison's (SCE) intertie (link) with Pacific Gas & Electric (PG&E) to the north. Since PG&E's power grid and SCE's grid both have interconnections to elsewhere, in the Pacific Northwest (PG&E) and the Southwestern United States (SCE), Path 26 is a southern extension of Path 15 and Path 66, and a crucial link between the two regions' grids.[3]
The path consists of three transmission lines, Midway–Vincent No. 1, Midway–Vincent No. 2 and Midway–Whirlwind. Midway–Whirlwind was part of what was called Midway–Vincent No. 3 before Whirlwind was built, as part of the Tehachapi Renewable Transmission Project.
The three Path 26 500 kV lines can transmit 3,700 MW of electrical power north to south. The capacity for south to north power transmission is 3,000 MW.[3]
Path 26 – Vincent to Midway[edit]
The Path, starting from the south, starts at the large Vincent substation close to State Route 14 and Soledad Pass near Acton east of the Santa Clarita Valley. The same Vincent substation is linked to Path 46 and Path 61 via two SCE 500 kV lines that head southeast to Lugo substation. As for these SCE 500 kV wires, like Path 15 to the north, the three 500 kV wires are never built together for the entire length of the route. Straight from the substation, all three lines head north-northwest. The westernmost SCE 500 kV line splits away and runs west of the other two SCE 500 kV lines.[2]
After crossing State Route 14, two 500 kV wires built by Los Angeles Department of Water and Power (LADW&P) join the eastern two SCE 500 kV wires. Some point west of Palmdale, one line (SCE) continues northwest and the other three (one SCE, two LADW&P) head west. The lone SCE line continuing northwest (with 230 kV lines) runs close to the Antelope Valley California Poppy Reserve, famed for its California Poppy flowers. The one SCE line that ran west of the other two SCE lines (now separated) re-joins the single SCE 500 kV running west with the two LADW&P lines. The four 500 kV lines run together for some distance until, at some point in the mountains, the two SCE lines continue to head west and the two LADW&P lines turn southwest and head for Sylmar in the San Fernando Valley (close to the Sylmar Converter Station southern terminus of the Pacific Intertie HVDC line). The two SCE lines heading west meet up with Interstate 5 on the arid foothills of the Sierra Pelona Mountains to the east of Pyramid Lake. The lines parallel I-5 crossing Tejon Pass (running on the eastern foothills of Frazier Mountain) and run out of sight for a while as they cross the high woodlands of the northern San Emigdio Mountains at their highest point at around 5,350 ft (1,630 m).[2][5]
As for the third line, north of Lancaster and State Route 138, it runs through a remote, roadless area of the Tehachapi Mountains with two 230 kV lines. Although it runs across sparse to dense oak woodlands at around 5,300 ft (1,615 m),[5] it is not easy to spot it on Google Earth since its right of way is not as clear cut as Path 15 and Path 66 to the north. Due to this, the line is not readily seen again until it crosses State Route 184 as a PG&E power line. Somewhere to the east of State Route 184, in the mountains, the line changes from SCE towers to PG&E towers.[2][6][7] By the time the all three lines are visible to Interstate 5, they roughly parallel each other until all three lines, two SCE and one PG&E, terminate at the massive Midway substation in Buttonwillow in the San Joaquin Valley.[8] Two pairs of PG&E 500 kV lines heading north and southwest (separated), form Path 15.[2]
Connecting wires to Path 46 – Vincent to Lugo[edit]
Adjacent to the Path 26 wires, two other SCE 500 kV also begin in Vincent substation. The two 500 kV power lines head northeast from Vincent to meet up with LADW&P's two other 500 kV wires from Rinaldi and then all four lines head east in the Antelope Valley along the northern foothills of the San Gabriel Mountains. Another LADW&P line from Toluca joins the four-line transmission corridor, resulting in a large path of five power lines. However, one LADW&P splits off from the other four lines and heads southeast. Soon after, the SCE lines split away from the remaining two LADW&P lines and head southeast as well. They cross the lone LADW&P line that split away and Interstate 15 as they head to the Lugo substation northeast of Cajon Pass. The lines terminate at Lugo, where one SCE Path 61 500 kV line, two SCE Path 46 500 kV lines, and three other SCE 500 kV lines end.[2][9][10]
Path 16
Path 15 is an 84-mile (135 km) portion[1] of the north-south power transmission corridor in California, U.S. It forms a part of the Pacific AC Intertie and the California-Oregon Transmission Project.
Path 15, along with the Pacific DC Intertie running far to the east, forms an important transmission interconnection with the hydroelectric plants to the north and the fossil fuel plants to the south. Most of the three AC 500 kV lines were built by Pacific Gas and Electric (PG&E) south of Tesla substation.
Path 15 consists of three lines at 500 kV and four lines at 230 kV. The 500 kV lines connect Los Banos to Gates and Los Banos to Midway. All four 230 kV lines have Gates at one end with the other ends at Panoche, Gregg, and McCall.[2]
There are only two connecting PG&E lines north of Tracy substation that connect Path 15 to Path 66 at the Round Mountain substation. The third line between Los Banos and Gates substation, south of Tracy, is operated by the Western Area Power Administration (WAPA), a division of the United States Department of Energy. This line was constructed away from the other two lines and is often out of sight. Most of the time the lines are in California's Sierra foothills and the Central Valley, but there are some PG&E lines that come from power plants along the shores of the Pacific Ocean and cross the California Coast Ranges and connect with the intertie. The Diablo Canyon Power Plant and the Moss Landing Power Plant are two examples.[3][4]
The Vaca-Dixon substation (38°24′8.33″N 121°55′14.75″W) was the world's largest substation at the time of its inauguration in 1922.[6]


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Situated just off the M20, our JCB Honda dealership in Ashford is ideally placed for our local customers and community businesses to visit. Our sales department is open seven days a week, with slightly later closing on weeknights for your convenience. All of our team members are approachable, enthusiastic, and passionate about what they do, and we work hard to make your visit enjoyable and stress-free.
***Important information: Please note from 4th March you will NO LONGER be able to access / leave the premises from The Parade. The only access in and out of the site will be via Monument Way.****
Use the contact details on this page to get in touch with us today, or use the online form to send your more general enquiries to us. Whether you e-mail, call, or visit us in person, our team will do all they can to advise and support you.
David Willoughby
Franchise Manager
Keith Dowle
Brand Manager
Shelley Matthews
General Sales Manager
Darryl Macey
Finance Compliance Manager
Leigh Hanger
Service Manager
Aaron Whipps
Parts Manager
JCB Honda is your local Honda dealership based in Orbital Park, Ashford, Kent. With a convenient location easily accessible from surrounding Kent and East Sussex locations, this is the perfect place to find high quality Honda vehicles in Kent.
If you're looking to invest in a new or used Honda then JCB Honda Ashford is the perfect place to look. Dedicated to quality and excellent customer service, the team are on hand to offer the support and advice you require to help you choose a new Honda that's right for you.
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Check out our website to find a Honda that suits your needs, or pop in and see the cars for yourself.


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A Brief History of Red Rocks Amphitheatre
The Red Rocks Amphitheatre isn't just any old concert venue; it's a massive 640-acre outdoor theater that was formed over millions of years and sits between the Great Plains and the Rocky Mountains. It's also the only naturally-occurring outdoor music venue in the world. Over the years, Red Rocks has been a favorite of both…Read more