text: The ethics of a cheap off-shore wedding dress #Fashion Advice#budgeting#china#copyright#custom dress#dress shopping Updated Oct 31 2018 (Posted Mar 25 2009) Ariel arielmstallings By: Taylor McBride – CC BY 2.0 I think that stealing a wedding dress design and having it made in China (in a place that is probably a sweatshop) is really unethical. It upsets me, as it both screws the original designer (who is probably a creative type who you would want to hang out with) and the workers … all for a dress you will wear once. Then again, I am not poor, and I can afford to pay the designer direct for some of the dresses I like and I will check that they are not made unethically. Am I just being a judgmental bitch cos I have the money to "do the right thing" here? Am I assuming that people have not thought about these issue, but actually they have and are fine with it? -Anonymous What a thick and meaty ethical question! Thanks so much for bringing the issue up. Ultimately, it's up to each of us to decide where their consumer values align — this is bigger than weddings. This is about pirating music, buying local produce, and world trade issues. I'm no consumer values expert, so really all I can do is share my personal perspective and values… Since I tend towards slightly odd clothes that I generally can't find in mainstream stores, I get a thrill out of supporting independent designers — I love the individuality that indie designs provide. When I was planning my wedding, this value translated into not being attracted in the big ticket dresses that I couldn't afford. My goal was to work with a couple local indie designers/seamstresses to custom-make something awesome and unique that I could re-wear. I had about a $500 budget, and integrated pieces of a cheap prom dress made in China and hand-crafted elements. While I personally had no interest in wearing a designer dress, I will say that I have no qualms with off-shore reproduction of name-brand designer wedding dresses through online spots like Kaersen. Many of the commercially-made dresses available at mainstream wedding boutiques are made in China anyway, and I don't think you're doing something inherently awful by taking money out of a big name designer's pocket. Vera Wang is a rich woman who dresses movie stars. The $5k you're not spending on one of her wedding dresses isn't going to put her in the poor house. I kind of equate reproducing a designer wedding dress with pirating a Beyonce album. Related Post Tips for buying eBay wedding dresses or accessories made in China Having now bought not one, but TWO of my important items from China (specifically for my wedding day, not to mention a raft of other... Read more That said, I think it's a different game if you're reproducing a dress made by a small, independent designer. And heaven forbid if you're reproducing a dress by an indie seamstress. That just doesn't fit with my personal values of prioritizing indie designers. (Then again, part of the magic of indie designers is that they create dresses that aren't easy to rip off. What off-shore dress factory is going to crank-out hand-dyed silk in your custom colors?) This is a way bigger question than just wedding dresses though, and you're right, anonymous: having money gives you the luxury of thinking through this decision with your consumer values held high. For some brides, their consumer values are a big priority in their lives that they translate into their wedding planning. Other brides may be focused on different offbeat aspects of their wedding — like hand-knitting scarves for each of their bridesmaides, or making sure their gay minister friend officiates, or hand-baking 200+ wedding cupcakes. These folks may think to themselves, "I like that dress I saw in the window, but I spent all my budget on organic catering and my amazing photographer. I'll just have the dress made in China." Like every other wedding decision, it's an issue of picking your battles, identifying your priorities, and compromising to make the best choice you can. Ariel Author of three editions of the Offbeat Bride book and the brand-new From Shitshow To Afterglow, Ariel Meadow Stallings acts as the publisher of all the Offbeat Empire websites. She lives in Seattle with her son, and if she's not reading or writing books, chances are good that she's dancing or happy-crying. To follow her latest work, join join The Afterglow, for exclusive access to essays, videos, online courses, and more. PREVIOUS Offbeat Utah wedding NEXT Kristi & John's Crafty Rainy Day Wedding Show/Hide comments [ 161 ] WOW! Great topic and yep, I agree with…most all of you. Let's put it in a different light (because I'm more familiar with this marketing) – ever heard of "twinned cars"? It's when two cars share the same basic model, but are sold under different brand names. example: Toyota Camry/Lexus ES350 or Toyota Matrix/Pontiac Vibe (the list is dozens) Nice. Same car. Different price. Different warranties. Different depreciation values. Made in the same factory. YOU DECIDE what you want to buy. Now, if I want the latest, greatest NO BODY has it vehicle, I'm going to pay. Or, if I want a top design vehicle I pay dearly. Is it a BETTER car? sometimes…the sheet metal might be better, the screws a little tighter, the paint a higher quality – but if i'm not on a race track should I care? Maybe, if it's what I'm into. If I don't care what I'm seen in and my little Honda gets me to the store, then that's what I have. Is an indie designer BETTER? only if you like her/his work and it fits your budget. Is Vera Wang too rich? I'm not sure what that means, but she makes mattresses now. Fashion has always been a crazy knock off world. You wait 2 years for the HOT now style to be ripped off and pay what we can afford. My personal issue, is the sweat shops in all countries, including US waters. If you want to try to stay green, maybe buy a dress off the rack b/c at least it's already been made and it's not new sweat? I struggle with this one on almost EVERYTHING I buy and it's very hard to escape. Last point to ponder for me – many of us will never have a financial footprint as big as our wedding (except house and childbirth) so think about how you want this billion dollar industry to act. Buy what you can afford and feel good about! Then go hug your neighbor just because you can. (putting soap box away…Thanks!) Reply This is SUCH an interesting discussion, and it's really good to hear the intellectual debate around the issue and not just the massive slag-fest that might have emerged elsewhere! I agree with everybody who has said that it's the desire that is at the core of the issue – people who really think that having a Vera Wang will MAKE their day. As someone living in a developing country, and working as a volunteer, it has been so refreshing to be planning my wedding from here, because the uber-consumption factor is simply not an issue. It has REALLY influenced my wedding planning process from Day 1, because every day I come face to face with people living hand to mouth and STILL finding something to share with their neighbours. As for the original question posted, I don't think you need to have money to "do the right thing". Our wedding is costing under $5000 USD, which I think is a heap of money but according to all other standards comes in as a "budget wedding", AND it's going to be carbon neutral and as ethical as possible. We have reduced where we can and purchased carbon credits to offset what we can't. I'm still me on my wedding day, so I want that day to be as considered as any other aspect of my life. This includes ensuring as much as possible (I take the point of Meghan in Comment 39) that my choices won't negatively impact on the lives of others, or the planet. And seriously, it is hard not to judge people who are prepared to spend $70K on a single day, with absolutely NO consideration of the consequences of their actions. I just can't help it – so call me a judgemental bitch! Reply In the fashion design world there are no copyright laws when it comes to garments (just brands/logos) so to mimic the design of your favorite Vera Wang or Wai-Ching dress has no legal reproductions/illegalities. That's why you see so many "inspired" prom dresses or "Get Michelle Obama's Inauguration dress!" With designer prices you are paying for high end fabric, quality construction, service and the brand. Just thought I would point that out. Reply One more point about sourcing, which seemed to be part of the original dilemma: clothing sold in the US is supposed to list its country of origin on the label. Thus, if a consumer has qualms about abusive working conditions in China, all we need to do is look at the label of the clothing we're considering and see where it's made. Commissioning a dress in the US from a local seamstress or designer can give some assurance of the working conditions under which the dress was made, because of US labor laws. Still, there are cases of sweatshops being discovered in garment districts in the US. I suspect – though I don't know for sure – that many high end designer gowns are made in China, a long with the knock-offs one can find on ebay. All this being said, I am embarrassed to say that I don't know where my gown is from… Reply Oh, just make your own darn dress! Even if you can't sew, you probably have a friend or a relative or a friend or relative of a friend or relative who knows how to sew. Reply One Barefoot Bride, in theory that is great advice, but many bridal boutiques rip out tags and will refuse to even tell a bride who the designer (let alone where it is made) is until AFTER she has paid for it. Totally illegal, but not enforced. I agree with Bird. Make your own or find someone locally that can. Reply Jess- My seamstress is Kathleen Knopoff. She's located in the Chicago area, but she's used to working with out-of-towners. Reply I'm coming into the game pretty late here, most of my thoughts have already been expressed beautifully above, but I would like to talk about my dress that I bought my wedding dress for $60 at a local thrift shop. I had originally planned to make my dress, and it may not be exactly what I had originally envisioned myself in, but I thought that it was important to tax the world as little as possible with my committment ceremony….and my fashion sense. The sixty dollar dress is gorgeous, lots of intricate, vintage looking embroidery and beadwork, a timeless flattering cut and a really bold neckline….what I'm trying to say here is that you CAN find that amazing dress through other means. Thrifting and bridal trade/rent/sharing communities are great and not just filled with outdatedf unimaginative dresses. I agree that it is your own decision, but please please PLEASE when you make that decision make sure it's an informed decision. Know where and what you're buying and take responsibility for it. Reply To put a different spin on things, what about situations where you're having a dress copied because the original dress doesn't come in the right colour/fabric? Is that still wrong? I had a lot of trouble finding a dress I actually liked, and finally found a photo of a Jovani prom dress that was exactly what I was after. However, I had two problems – 1. I live in Australia, and I couldn't find anywhere that stocked the dress, and 2. I really wanted it to be in a particular fabric. I ended up taking the photo to a couple of independent dress designers for their opinions, and both refused to copy it outright for the same reasons expressed above, even though the original dress wasn't 'designer'. Our compromise was to use the photo of the dress as a base and change a number of things – the colour and the fabric and a couple of other small details. So I guess my question is, what is a 'copy'? Does it have to be an exact copy to be wrong? Is it still wrong if you change something in the design? Is it wrong if you're not copying a 'designer' dress? Is it wrong if you're copying the dress because you physically can't get your hands on it (either because its not available in your area or because its an older style that has ceased production)? I think that there is no black and white answer, to be honest – the only thing you can do is inform yourself as best as you can and make the decision that is right for you. Reply Personally I wouldn't really give it a second thought, while I am against sweat shops, most of these "designer" dresses are made in equally poor conditions, and machined as well. So, if you're gonna just buy a knockoff, go for it, it's for one day, not that huge of a deal. Personally, I bought my hand made/designed wedding dress/corset from an indie designer in Australia, I would be far more likely to give an indie designer my money than a WIC infested powerhouse like Vera Wang, who could probably give two shits about your wedding dress. Plus, realistically if you buy the traditional wedding dress, you are really only going to wear it on one day, why spend that much money unless you have it? Reply I'd have to say in these times of economic turmoil more people are going to lean towards the cheaper option of going overseas. For me I am going to buy my dress overseas from a wholesale place, I don't know if they have ripped off designer dresses but I am buying the dress I want in the budget I have. I wouldn't rip off an indie design though I would admit but I'm not about to pay someone who already has masses of money heaps of money for a dress that I am only going to wear once. Realistically though it is your day, if you have to have THAT dress but you don't have a $10 000 budget just for your dress I say go the overseas option. If you have the money go for it. You'll have the label and the specific super fabrics the designer uses, or you'll get the dress you love that suits you in maybe a different fabric (no one will notice in the photos or on the day really). And I've babbled on a bit hopefully I've made some sense. Reply I find this topic very interesting, and not just because I bought a Vera Wang dress. I went to a consignment shop that specializes in designer dresses. I tried a bunch on, and I loved this beautiful beaded silk organza Vera Wang. Even used, this dress was $1600, which I paid. I completely agree with an earlier poster that class privilege was at play, and I try to never forget that. Why am I OK with designer prices? I think it is very similar to the pharm industry. Yes drug companies have big advertising budgets, but they also have millions in research and development cost. I understand when I buy a brand, that I am buying a lifetime of work. That's where brand recognition comes from. It means something that we all know who Vera Wang is. Continuing the drug metaphor, generics contain the same essential ingredients. Dresses not made by the original designer house are not subject to the same control process, and therefor are not the same. I would argue that construction of a dress matters greatly, and that can be difficult to see from a photo. On a more selfish level, I worry about "knockoffs" watering down the original. I don't want to look at the label of my dress and wonder "is this really a Vera Wang?" It shouldn't matter, but to me it does. I think it is great that I am the third bride to wear this dress. I feel like I cheated the WIC, while still honoring the artist. I have an original dress, I just acquired it in an offbeat way. Reply I honestly don't think a woman spending $200 on a knockoff is taking money out of a designers pocket, no matter which way you slice it. A person finding a knockoff dress for a steal is a person not willing to spend $5000+ on a dress anyway. If the knockoff were not available, would that bride say "I guess I have to spend the 5k!" no, she wouldn't. She'd just find a different dress that fits her budget and hopefully still fits her vision. You see it happen on boards all over the place, not just the OBT. And the point at which it becomes okay to knockoff someone's work is when they begin price gouging based on their name. It ceases to be about getting your wares, designs, and ideas to the world, and becomes completely totally about the wedding industrial complex. Do you think Vera'd be selling her dresses for that kind of price if she was on etsy? It's the same phenomenon as the price for a fancy birthday cake, vs the price for a wedding cake. Reply In addition to bing a psychotherapist I am a textile artist. I spin my own yarn, weave my fabric and produce the final object/garment from my fabric and my designs. When I send a piece of my art out into the world – be it a show, a museum or a customer – that design becomes party of the world. Other artist and craftspersons can use it for inspiration, people can knock it off – that they would want to only flatters me. Creation and design does not belong to an individual but to the society in which it was inspired. In turn becomes a source of inspiration for what comes later. By all means modify my designs, steal my designs, use them to create your own designs. Reply So, I totally get the whole "stealing is wrong there is no such thing as black and white" thing… shoot, I was raised in Judea-Christian America too. But I do not concede that a "rip-off" wedding dress is wrong. First of all, like many other posters, I'm hesitant to call it "stealing," per say. After all, many of these offshore dresses are designed specifically to your measurements, and so they will like inherently different, because they're made to fit a specific person. Secondly, aren't most of the complaints you (or anyone who does any research on the Chinese, etc. dress manufacturers) will read about knock-offs involve bitching about how the dress isn't exactly the same as the picture. Most of the companies being discussed (Kaersan, Perimart, Milly's Bridal) state that they are making dresses based on photos of gowns, and that as such they are not (and can not) be totally identical. I think it's a little ridiculous to assume Maggie Sottero (or whoever) invented the sparkly princess a-line dress with one sleeve, because seriously? He/she/they did not. The bulk of differences between big name Western designers is not so much. They all copy each other anyway… That's what a TREND is. Personally? I'd much rather directly support a Chinese seamstress via her own Ebay store than via Miss Vera Wang. Reply In my business of fashion class is pointed out to us that there is no such thing as copyright in fashion. Once you're design is out there you really can't keep anyone from copying it. It's simply not considered the designers in the same way a song is a musicians or a painting is the painters. Look at F21. They are ALWAYS copying high end and only once did they get in trouble because the directly 100% copied DVF. Change a button here and a hemline there it's not considered the same design. Reply Although I am not condoning sweatshops, people in China need jobs too. I need a traditional Chinese wedding dress for my wedding and they are most always made in China. Probably a lot of the fabric including silks used by indie designers originally came from China. The US imports the highest % of our foreign goods from China. Whether we like it or not we live in a global economy. Reply @Sarah H ("and maybe I should have used a different company like Costco that isn't as contentious"): I just love the mental image of someone trying to steal an economy-size tub of Vaseline or jumbo bag of Sour Patch kids from Costco. I say if anyone can pull something like that off, they're entitled to keep whatever they've nicked. 😉 My boyfriend was reading this post over my shoulder and said something pretty apt (in that adorable lethargic Californian way): "If she has a 4-inch p—-, it doesn't matter if you have a 10-inch c—." (And he never uses that language which made it even better in that 'you had to be there' kind of way.) If you're on a tight budget, there's little chance you're going to be able to fit a $5k wedding dress into the equation. Unless that's something you absolutely want to fight for–and if that's the case, more power to you. But if you're making budget cuts to afford your dress to the point where your reception is in the cafe at your local IKEA, it's going to fit about as well as the 4"/10" scenario. When my mother got re-married (and re-married again), she put most of her money into getting her whole family in on the party (we have a huge extended Syrian fam). So she used dress styles she admired from magazines/catalogs to create patterns and sew her bridesmaid/flower girl dresses using fabrics she picked out, modifying them to fit our different body shapes and sizes. Could the Storybook catalog have used the $500 she would have spent on clothing my aunt, me, and my sisters? Meh. Was it worth more getting to see all of our family in one nice and comfortable hotel? Totally. What's best is, she got her ideal dresses and didn't have to outsource to China. I bet if you have misgivings about getting a factory knockoff, you could find a friend, family member, or design school student who could work out your dress for you for a fraction of the cost or a couple of dinners. That to me sounds like a perfect fit. Reply Having money does indeed give you the luxury to care about these things. Many women do not have the thousands of dollars that most designer wedding dresses cost. I, for example, had no more than a couple hundred dollars to spend (and even that is a lot for me). Does that mean that I don't get to have a wedding dress I love? Does that mean I have to shop at thrift stores or get a revamped prom dress? I'm sorry, but that's not fair. If I can get a dress that looks similar to a designer dress for less, than I'm going to get that. It really kind of makes me upset that the original questioner feels that people just aren't thinking about these kinds of things. Of course we are. Of course I did. But I'm poor. I want a beautiful wedding dress too. Reply I agree that going overseas for a knockoff isn't exactly the equivalent of steal from your local grocery. I agree that if you couldn't afford that higher price, you're not taking business away from a designer. Heck, if anything, more people wearing that design will only serve to send more people with money and who want to pay for a name their way. Also, I'd like to add something about "Made in the USA." Yes, if you're going to a local who will make it, that's one thing. Not all things with that label are actually made here. There are factories in American Samoa, the Marshall Islands, and Free Trade Zones across the world who can legally manufacture apparel that says "Made in the USA." The first two are US territories, but have recently have BEGUN taking steps with labor laws. As for Free Trade Zones, that's what you get when the World and/or the Inter-American Development Bank reams small nations. For more information: http://www.lifeanddebt.org/about.html Reply How many children could you feed in a third world country with the $5K you are spending on a wedding dress? As an artist, I have respect for intellectual property. However, I think there are designers that abuse it. I challenge anyone to send me a so called original design and I will find you the dress that inspired it. People lose touch with reality. Perfect example: Amsale, who came to the U.S. from Ethiopia and "couldn't afford designer clothes, so I started making my own". Now she not only makes dresses that people like herself (at one time) could never afford, but disregards the fact that the average cost of one of her gowns could feed 1 meal to 50,000 people in her native country (https://give.ccci.org/give/View/2816447_1132) If you want to reproduce a design, change it ever so slightly and you'll be doing what every other bridal designer does. Just have it made here instead of in a sweat shop! You ought to question how ethical it is for you to frivilously spend that much on clothing when so many people don't have a roof over their heads and don't know where to find their next meal. Is that "doing the right thing"? Reply Lots of thoughts and lots of opinions- all wonderfully expressed. I LOVE the discussions on this site, they are always so respectful and well thought out. 🙂 My priority in this debate is moral issues hands down. The wedding dress industry is wrought with human right issues and I can'T justify buying a dress for my day of love that has such a horrible, abusive history. It feels weird. Good news for Canadian Brides: there ARE boutiques that carry Canadian made dresses for under a zillion dollars- Lee-Ann Belter is one. 🙂 Reply There is another option besides buying original, ordering a knock-off, or having a dress made… and that is buying a dress (new or used) from a consignment shop. I looked at one shop in my local area that had hundreds of new or "once worn" (their words) wedding dresses from various designers. Most of their selection was pretty traditional (read: fitted bodice, A-line skirt, chapel length train) so I didn't up getting my dress there. But I think its a wonderful option for someone that wants: (1) a more traditional dress possibly designer, (2) something more budget conscious, and/or (3) an opportunity to support a small local business. Reply This topic caught my eye, as I am a indie designer, and although I am not a fan of the big generic bridal shops( for so many reasons…same ol' frocks, snotty sales staff, nothing over a size 8…..) I do however understand why things cost so much for weddings…and I know many of you out there thing that you say the word wedding,and think folk see pound signs and charge accordingly. In the majority of cases, I really don't think this is so. …(god, there are so many issues posted and well covered in this thread, I'm trying to not babble on too much….) The copy / theft one I will start with; as a small designer I make a very limited amount of dresses each year, this is my full time occupation, I work 6 days a week, aprox 10 hour days. I work hard. On my own I can only make a limited amount of dresses, 12-20 depending on style. I choose to used the best fabrics I can, and give the best service I can. Each dress is fitted 3-5 times in person, by me, I do all the designing, cutting, fitting, sewing. But beyond all this I have to run it as a business, so the dresses final cost, is not just the cost of the fabrics you see on the out side, but also the internals, and everything that makes the business run, in this very comparative market. I have a unit to work from, various sewing machines, irons, eyelet machines, of course computer, printer, camera…and millions of other thing you would not even conceder. …So my designs can be found, each new design need s to be modelled, photographed, hair, make up, ( most of this I do myself, to save costs, but not every one can do this) then they need to be advertised, via magazines, the internet….getting top on goggle is not free and is hard work! Then all the other ad min bill, like tax VAT, accountants fees….tea bags and toilet rolls for when client some to view the collection, which has to be made, so you guys can see it in person…the hundreds of fabric samples keep for viewing and the dozens bought in to show you different shades etc…. Are you still with me??? This hasn't not even started how many years I spent training to learn my craft…..and continue to do so to keep up with new technology… Right, so after all this I charge, £2500-£4500+ for my dresses. yes, I know a massive amount, but this does not mean I am over charging, or sitting in mansion. if I got a proper job, I could work less, and earn more, I know this. I am not bad at business, even when working at full wack, there is a top limit to what I can make, I have to trusted employees who work one day a week. I love what I do, and would rather earn less and continue as I am , a small business. I would never considering going into manufacture, as the whole point of what is do is to make stunning, well made, well fitted, flattering garments, that really show their wearers personality. I don't believe this can be mass produced. But I appreciate this is not always an affordable option I also realise that as I am limited to making such a small amount, things will be copied, its inevitable, and flattering,as if 100 people wanted the same dress in one year, I could not do it, also can I cover a international market, as all fitting need to be done I person, eliminating anyone who does not live in the UK. And with the way the internet works, my advertising covers the whole world, which I still find amazing! To get enough customers in the uk, I have to cover the whole web. The point I think, I am trying so lengthily to make is, I know not every one has a massive budget, and am the first to say, buy what you can afford!, don't go broke for a frock. But it is still offensive to me when people think that they are expensive wedding dresses are over priced, because even Wang, will have massive over hear to run her business, and by having the gowns mass produced she is giving hundreds if not thousands of people jobs. She may not hand stitch them, but her staff, if not her would have designed them ( personally I'm not a Wang fan, not my taste, just using her as an example) There is a lot that goes in to designing,( well anything really) shape and proportion, details etc…that takes an expert eye to do, and the research in to buying and finding the right fabrics etc…Once its out there,as a dress its quiet easy to copy it, as all the leg work has been done. When I started the business, I went round bridal shows, the wholesale kind, and saw the cost of the dresses to buy, the mark up is 3-5 times the cost, more than the usual shop mark up, this may sound shocking, but I now realise why….. If a dress is bought by a shop, for say £150, then sold for say £800, that £650 does not go straight in to the pockets of the shop owner, in the same way you can cook a meal for a less than a pound, or pay £50+ in a fancy restaurant. There is a reason for this, not just the food costs, but everything from the chair you sat on, the waiting staff, the lights above you, the public insurance to cover them and you…..shall I go on….. The cost of something is never what you just see in front of you….there is so much more…..Especially in weddings, when people want it just so, and want to be able to speck to their vendors at any given moment. Most vendors are happy to do this, as its make for a good service, the client getting what they want, a wedding can and generally is more special, and more time consuming than a day to day event, food or flowers, yes you can get a bunch of flowers for less than bouquet, but do you wan to carry a shop bought bunch of daffodils…( I might!) but most folk want a perfectly proportioned, placed bouquet, which take more time to make, and more time with the client to discuss, sample and source. Time costs money, we all have bills to pay. And that is my point. I hate generic bridal shops as much as the next indie bride, but do I think they over charge, no. The dresses may be relatively, or even in the case of the expensive designer shops, the time spent with wedding customers is much more than a normal shop. A potential bride may visit 3-4 time to try on a dress, but never buy it, all these thing have to be costed in to the running of a business. It is the time spent that can make things cost so much, for example, the wedding shop, high or low end, or indie,..There is a shop, which is filled with dresses, and staff to help people try them on, these dresses, in most cases(apart from sample sales) are 'hangin up money' as they cant be sold, as they will be worn out and ruined after a few months, as they will have been tried on..and on…This is necessary, but will not guarantee the shop a sale. In many cases people will go and try the dress on to see if it looks good, then go buy it from the internet cheaper. Although this is quiet excepted, is it fair on the shop? The reason the internet shop re cheaper, is because they do not have these over heads. But is does benifit from the shops who people freely use to try on what they will knowing not be buying from there. This is not to say you must buy from every where you try! So it is great for the customers, great for the net shop, but the looser is the shop. Who have basically been used. At the end of the day, you have to make your own decisions based on what you think is right for you, at the time, and what you can afford. If you love designer /indie or other wise, and can afford and appreciate what they are and why they cost so much, you will save up and get them, If you cant afford it, there no reason why you shouldn't do what you can to get the look you want on the budget you have, by takign ideas from other designers just please appreciate why they cost that much more. I think this is what is most designers gripe, its not the coping, as yes, all fashion is copied and filtered down to all price brackets, its the thought behind it. The same thought that makes a person think whether they want sweat shop or non sweat shop..and as a sewer, I recon its all sweat shop…just in different places, with different fabrics, and different wages, weather in a home basement or massive factory. One last thing, on the money front, I know some folk think it is crazy waste of money to spend more than £$100 on a dress for one day( although many designs can be worn and worn these days if you don't opt a long white frock…) but who has the right to say if your rich, you must live humbly, and give your money to the poor? That's as bad as saying someone who is poor should work harder, get a better job, so they can do the same. People come form all circumstance, and financial positions, some are born into it, some are given it, some work hard, some are just plain lucky. But know one has the right to say what each person should do with it. No more than we should say if a person deserves to have cancer or not. Be true to your believes, as long as they harm no other. That I think is the best we can do. Reply Oh crap, I forgot one more thing in regards to buying second hand, this is fab, you can find unusual things, vintage things, its re using, less waste, all good, and generally cheaper, but don't forget, there is a chain, if there was no one buying the stuff, then giving it/selling it on, there would be no second hand to buy from, just a thought…. Reply Even when making your own dress it can be pretty tough to avoid sweat shop labour. Although your designer and dressmaker may be local, where was the fabric made? Where was the cotton or linen grown and spun? The silk cocoons unwound? That doesn't mean it's not worth attending to, just that it's going to be tough to be "pure green and fair trade." Reply I used to be a model for wedding dresses, I sympathise with Jan above. It was easy for me just to show up, be dressed up, and spend 9+ hours per shoot standing there looking blank and getting paid very, very well for it, besides the hairdresser fees and the makeup artist fees and the photographer, and the revenue the designer lost hovering around and pinning this and accentuating that. I tried to fathom the cost per design to ensure this was worth it and ever afterwards defended any designer charging that much. 🙂 I just want to say, though, that it's not just your desire. Some of the people invited to the wedding are business acquaintances and it's nice to be impressive, but beyond that it's also what your fiance and both of your families want. Wearing an indie dress wouldn't be very smart of me; I might get applauded for my creativity but it might also come across as a sign that my businesses are doing poor economically, so other companies should sign contracts with me/purchase my businesses/allow me to partner why? (I get the challenge of trying to be offbeat under everyone's noses to amuse my fiance and I). I look very young, and labels are important to me so I can approach the older female entrepreneurial crowd. As well, there was that fuss recently about how women tend to hire friends and family who need a job, and that's the largest reason that female-owned businesses do poorly. I realise this doesn't affect that many, but I feel compelled to defend a choice that has less to do with desire and more to do with logic, when we've just defended label choice by saying it's motivated by desire. Sometimes a wedding is just as much a professional event as a personal one! (TL;DR: Labels sometimes help cement a woman's professionalism.) I love everyone's comments, though – very good debate! By the way, Helen, if you go to the manufacturer directly it's much easier to determine their "greenness" even though I find, particularly so in the western States, that many vendors use "green" to sell because perhaps one feature of their production line is more green than, say, McDonald's. Besides, there are local fabrics in many places that you can purchase or, if you're lucky, you may have friends who travel for business or pleasure and might know which places to get decent local fabrics in. It's more work, certainly, but if it's so important to be green, then the work makes sense. Finding an ethical designer and dressmaker is relatively easy; finding the fabric is much more difficult. I agree about the human-rights violations, though. We know they exist and we promote the culture that causes it to exist. (Does ANYONE disagree?) And by the way, the note about justifying spending that much money on a dress is the same as spending that much money on, say, a boat, or a trip to Japan: the short answer is, because someone desires it. Really. They may have dreamt about spending a romantic weekend in Paris since they were six, or imagined their wedding dress since the time they saw a re-enactment of Princess Di's wedding on television. (Curiously and getting way off-topic, I've heard it put thusly: if you spend that much on a wedding dress and a fortune on the wedding, then close a deal for six million dollars, and ten percent of your personal earnings goes to feed people… moral justification for a lush lifestyle is hilarious to listen to.) Wonderful debate! Reply It is dangerous to make sweeping generalizations about China, sweatshops, workers and their "ethical" needs. On the one hand, high-quality luxury apparel tends to be produced in factories that are not sweatshops, or at least not the worst working environment out there. High quality, fashion-oriented goods are also more likely to be produced closer to the market where they are sold, although China and other Asian countries have achieved major successes in high quality production in some instances. Also, it is often true that typically brand name companies/designers have better compliance and standards than no-name brands or knock-offs. On the other hand, wedding gown brands are not as visible or commonly critiqued as, say, your Gaps and Nikes. Therefore, who's to say that the high-end designers necessarily care about working conditions more than the knock-off brands (which are also luxury compared to a t-shirt)? It would be an interesting research project to follow the supply chains of different wedding gowns to find out the actual geography, conditions of the work, living conditions and life situations of the workers (who are women 80%+ of the time). One final comment: if we just accept that "sweatshops" are a necessary reality, that is a sad, sad reflection on how far this ethical trade debate has come. Reply http://www.storyofstuff.com/ Not related to wedding dresses, but this website has some interesting insight into American consumerism and how it affects the world. Reply I think we accept generally that most of our affordable products come from workers somewhere down the line who were not fairly paid, at least compared to the livable wage of North America and Europe. That being said, most of us live busy lifestyles and work within our budgets for both time and money to live as ethically as possible. For some, this means shopping and eating at fair-trade shops and restaurants, or perhaps being vegan or vegetarian to reduce the pressure on the animal production and slaughter system. Also, I agree with Ann about the high quality production comment, not much fuss is made in the US over the Hong Kong fashion industry, which is absolutely breathtaking. I find China even to be expensive (my friends translate for me so as to prevent me getting ripped off) since much of my high quality scarves and nightwear comes from there. It seems a bit ignorant to just assume cheap production = Asian countries. (Psst: one edit for my post – if you close a deal because of the wedding celebration -> that's what I meant. It's quite hypocritical, though, with the previous statement about mixing family and employees, but a lot of elderly independent businessmen see this as a traditional way of doing business.) Reply I'm not sure if anyone else brought this up, but once any designer publicly shows a collection, rip-offs IMMEDIATELY show up in Forever21 or Target — it's part of the fashion industry, always has been. What you're paying for with a big-name designer dress is the quality of materials, the handcrafting, and, essentially, bragging rights. I see nothing wrong with ripping off a big-name designer dress. The whole fashion industry is used to it, and you're not making a profit like the chain stores are — you're just enjoying the product. As far as the ethics of overseas labor, I have no ability to comment… I'm pretty sure half my clothes were made in China, Indonesia, or Taiwan, just like the rest of America. Reply One thing to consider: If you want any type of clothing, bridal or otherwise "cheap", you will be paying the person who will be creating the garment "sub-living wages", regardless if the seamstress is local or overseas. I am a seamstress who works in a fabric store (I primarily do costumes), and have been approached frequently by customers asking me how much I would charge to make something. When I give them a rough figure- (which is frequently a gross underestimate of what I SHOULD be getting paid) they are usually completely shocked as to why I am asking for so much! Any garment involves time + material cost. I don't have any experience making wedding gowns yet (will be making my own at some point)- I primarily make movie recreation costumes, which can be just as elaborate and detail-oriented. But let's estimate that the average wedding gown takes approximately 100 hours to make (if there's hand beading or embroidery involved, tack on another 50-100 hours, depending on how elaborate.) All those hours isn't just from making the actual dress, but involve fitting and tailoring the dress so it will fit properly, which takes a lot of work. If I charge minimum wage (which is $8 here in California, which is greatly cheapening my work, as sewing is skilled labor which I have spent a number of years trying to perfect- I can make just as much if not more working at McDonald's which takes no skill.) So you're looking at $800 from just labor costs alone. Now we need to factor in the materials. Bridal fabric is typically anywhere from $10 on up. I work in a fabric store and know how to get good deals (plus, an employee discount helps as well) so I can get fabric for significantly less then suggested retail. Your typical bridal gown is approximately 8 yards of fabric. Let's aim cheap, and say we are doing a simple dress with not a lot of embellishments out of a nice silk taffeta, which I can get for about $12/yard (let's not even talk if you want bridal lace- which can be from $24-$60+/yard) 12 x 8 = $96. Now you have to take into consideration all the notions that go into the dress: lining, interfacing, thread, buttons, zippers, hook and eye, boning, ribbon… it all adds up. So you're looking at a very basic custom dress costing over $1000. We're in an age where we've come to expect items for next to nothing, which is why I seldom do commission work: because people expect homemade custom work for "off the rack" prices. So remember, even if your local seamstress is willing to make your wedding dress for $300, understand that she is likely making grossly underpaid for her hard work just the same as if you were to get a dress from China. Reply Just wanted to say that if the film "Real Women Have Curves" (starring America Ferrera – I love her!) is any indication, even dresses made in the U.S. can be (and probably are) made with sweat-shop labor, or at least people who are very underpaid. In the film, the aunt of the main character (main character = America) runs a dress shop where they piece and finish prom dresses to be sold in big department stores. They are paid about $15 for each dress, which is resold in the department stores for about $200, and have to eat the costs of any dress they manage to "ruin," (i.e. crease or burn when pressing, etc.). I personally am hoping to go with a local seamstress or a friend of mine who is really good at sewing. As for offshore? You're probably paying those seamstresses in China and India much more than they would be getting paid if they made clothes for big American companies. I do agree with the consignment shop comment, though. Other options? Ebay, Etsy, local thrift and vintage stores, etc! Or, god forbid, make it yourself! Reply Lisa is absolutely right. I design and make most of my own clothing and get compliments all the time, but I don't do it to sell because I doubt I could sell day dresses for what it would cost me in materials and labor. If I paid myself $10 an hour–which is not a living wage–for both the time spent designing, fine-tuning my improvisations (every dress is unique), and sewing, plus materials (quality cotton prints but nothing extravagant), I'd have to charge about $200 for a simple day dress. I think I'd be very hard-pressed to get that when there are so many cool vintage dresses available on Etsy, eBay, and through thrift stores, much more cheaply. I don't have any other employees to support or a workspace to rent, either! If I were doing this professionally, I'd have to streamline my designing and sewing process considerably, which would sacrifice creativity and uniqueness. Everything has a trade-off. So, just because and independent designer is expensive doesn't mean s/he is overpriced. I could easily see a wedding dress, even by a small local designer/seamstress, running a couple of thousand dollars. It's not price-gouging; it's fair pay for her work. Reply An art dealer might tell you that an original Jackson Pollock holds a hefty price tag, and someone else might look at it and say, "He only spent a couple bucks on a few cans of paint and drizzled it on some canvas. My 5-year-old can do that, and you want me to pay WHAT for this?!??" What determines the painting's value in not the cost of the materials or how or where it was made; it is the supply and demand factor. You can have a pair of jeans made in a sweat shop in China for 2 fickin' bucks (which is how much it costs to manufacture a pair of Calvin Klein jeans), and if the demand is high, the price will be high. If no one wants them, they'll be cheap. In any event, if you don't want to support Vera Wang or whomever – for whatever reason – then why so keen to have a dress that looks just like hers? I think the mentality involved in purchasing knock-offs is really rooted in wanting that which we cannot realistically have. If you can't afford a Vera Wang, then what's the harm in purchasing a beautiful dress (designed by someone else) that is in your price range? There are plenty of "no-name" dress designers who make fantastic gowns, and no one is going to be looking at the tag on your dress at your wedding. I can't resist commenting on those who have posted that knock-offs are not illegal. As a legal professional, I somewhat disagree. U.S. Customs actually looks specifically for (and confiscates) designer knock-offs when these items come through Customs. One clarification, however: EXACT replicas are illegal. Designer "inspired" items are not. Reply Okay- I really have something to say about this!!!! I am a designer and owner of a company that has made dresses for a number of Offbeat Brides. In an effort to respect this site I am not going to "Pimp My Business Name". Gals- just because you give a seamstress a picture of a dress torn from a magazine does not mean that is the dress you are going to get from your "copyist! You will get a version of that dress. It could be indiscernible- if you are INCREDIBLY lucky. But I will tell you- even in Hollywood, when they have the most expert craftspeople in the world and unlimited budgets as tools for achieving authenticity, they sometimes can't really copy 10% or make bad mistakes. What you are going to get is a version of what you are asking for- you will NEVER get an exact copy. You are gambling. You are gambling that you will pay less and get close enough to what you want to be pleasing to you. You are taking a very big risk (and if you get what you want, I think you "deserve" it for being so resourceful!) You have no idea how many judgment calls will be made during the course of "interpreting" your request, not to mention the corners that might be cut. Let's also think about what the very meaning of the word "fashion" carries with it. It's a creation of culture and of the time- it doesn't "belong" to one designer. The people who made mini skirts after Mary Quant "invented" the mini skirt were not copying her. Mary Quant ingeniously plucked an idea from the winds of the times. I make "vintage reproductions". They are all my version of something where I have taken inspiration from certain details and then I have done it in my own way. So do at least half of the current haute couture designers out there today- vintage elements are very big now. Even though my company has our own distinctive look, some one can- and they do- try to "knock us off". It is better as a designer to simply be flattered by that, keep coming up with "new" ideas, and do what you do the best you possibly can, because it's about so many small issues of quality and so many small judgment calls that 1) no one can ever completely copy you and 2)if you are, on balance, giving value to customers with what you do and creating something people want, you will likely have a market. Worry, as a designer, about doing *your* best at what you do, not what others are doing. The last thing I'd like to say on this subject is that a beautiful dress design virtually always evolves i the design studio. It isn't born in one fell swoop- at least not very often. The first time you make it, you learn something and you revise it. If you as a consumer are simply trying to get a distant shop to copy something, they will not be able to afford to make it over a few times and work the bugs out of it before they make your dress. The prototype is so rarely perfect. If the seamstress/ shop is local and you know how to determine why something doesn't look right, at least you can make the seamstress change it a bunch of times to work out all the kinks if s/he is making something for you from a picture or or a sketch. Even commercial patterns (Vogue, Butterick)never turn out like the picture on the front- they always need to be tweaked. So if you go to someone who has already made that particular style instead of going to someone who is copying the style, your chances of getting it the way you want are increased dramatically. And there you have my $.02 Katherine Reply Regarding "Cheap Offshore". "probably made in a sweatshop… by child labor…" I have a small business- you may have seen my last post. I am an American alternative artsy type who worked in the US ("Made in The USA"- how PC- not really) for a long time, most recently in Hollywood for ten years, before I came to my dream place, Bali eight years ago, and created my dream job making dresses I love that nice (yay!) people can afford to buy, in an orchid-draped garden studio, where I know there will be no bad vibes for me to contend with at work because I treat the people who work with me really well and in return they treat me really well. I contrast that with some of the Hollywood producers I had to work for or some of the screaming abusers in New York that I had to work for when I worked on 7th Ave in the fashion industry there. (Not all of them were like that,of course, but all too many of them. Traumatic!!! Shudder!!!) I came here because I could do what I love with nice people (working along side me) for nice people (as customers). If I was still working in Hollywood, no way could the same people who can afford my clothes today be able to buy from me. Not all enterprises in third world countries are "places where an ethical person wouldn't want their money going"! Golly, you can really FEEL GREAT about yourself when you fund certain undertakings in third world countries. Some of those third world workers are SUPER NICE, TALENTED, DESERVING PEOPLE. Some of those purported "sweat shops" might actually be pretty places with fresh air and an affable atmosphere with short working hours where people are making conversation with their friends while doing a craft they enjoy. There may be some horrible fat cat skimming off every grain of profit, but there may not be! There could be a horrible abusive exploiter fat cat running a US business, too! (Trust me!) Are we going to be all protectionist and try to save every nickle to only spend in the US? There's a great way to encourage world poverty. I think we have to try to use our heads and pick and choose. I really believe in voting with your dollars. I think that is a very effective way of doing good in the world. Refuse to to business with ugly corporations, even when that is inconvenient for you. Let people from other countries make products for you- geez. Don't go around saying every product you buy has to be from the US and then claim to be a supporter of ending world hunger. We need to share. Let's keep the jobs in the U.S. that we do best- let's specialize in what we do best and let our world neighbors contribute -and earn- as well. Let's use our heads and evaluate on an ongoing basis with an open mind and evaluate on an individual basis when we can. Let's try not to lump "all third world workers" or "all imports" any more than you would lump "all Muslims" or "all men" or whatever. Pardon my preaching 🙂 Katherine Reply […] Offbeat Bride The ethics of a cheap off-shore wedding dress […] Reply I'm with you on the support for indie designers, but I don't think there's a point where it's morally ok to rip something off just because the person who made it won't miss the money. By that logic, embezzlement is totally fine as long as you pick a rich target! Let's support small artists by buying their goods, not by stealing from successful ones! Reply Unfortunately, it is naive to think that only big-name designers get ripped off, not "indie" designers. I think trying to make such a distinction is ethically unsound, anyway, and is really just rationalization. Take Amy Kuschel as an example. She is an independent bridal designer in San Francisco. Does indie mean cheap? No — her dresses range from about $1500 to more than $3000. But as an "indie" designer, is she exempt from imitation? Follow this link to find out: http://www.google.com/products?hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&q=amy+kuschel+wedding+dress&revid=1340892441&ei=8sHPSfHqDoznnQe91s3MCQ&resnum=0&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=ecLPSdTNGIqMtgfMlo3eCQ&sa=X&oi=product_result_group&resnum=4&ct=title Reply This discussion is amazing, I love reading everyone's opinions… and GREAT ideas! Can I just throw something out there? Vera Wang offers some patterns through Simplicity. So technically, if you got a seamstress to create the dress from that pattern, you wouldn't have to steal from her at all, she'd get your $18. I know, it's a little besides the point, but if there are any Vera lovers out there who can't afford it, this combines the best of both worlds. There are a lot of great ideas in combining the two extremes here, too, and I so loved reading everyone's post that I could (I admit, I stopped somewhere around 70… eyes getting tired!) There's never going to be a "one size fits all" answer, but I think the closest is one many people are saying: it is whatever you are morally comfortable with, IMO. Reply A few people have already brought this up, but we have workers that are exploited right here in the US, and workers that are treated extremely well in so-called 3rd world countries. In fact, in some of those countries, places we consider sweat-shops are considered a big step UP for the workers in that part of the world. While here in the US, I know of people who are NOT paid overtime, because of a loophole in the laws. We should be conscious of how we spend our dollars, whether we spend them on "Made in the USA" or "Made in China," on a designer original or a knock-off, from a resale shop or brand-new. We can do this at every economic level. Reply I think it all comes down to basic economics and good business. Make a good product for a good price and people will buy it. Make a good product at an unreasonable price and people will go elsewhere to pay a cheaper price. It's really that simple. Everyone who had ever done business knows that if you produce the same product as your competitor but your price is lower, you'll win the buyers. In the case of fashion, there are no US laws that protect the designs – so legally it is perfectly acceptable to replicate a design, as far as I understand it. In my particular case, I designed my own dress then found "my" design was already made by a dress company. So in theory, I'm not really copying their dress, yet they will look the same. The thing about design is, if its good, everyone will copy it in one way or another. It's part of the business. I myself am a designer and although I hope that people will purchase my designs, I realize that theh bottom line will always be money and quality. And on one last tangent, I find that most "wedding" dress shops increase the markup on wedding gowns just because of the word attachment. As an educated consumer, I refuse to pay an additional markup just because someone thinks they can take advantage of me based on emotions. It is a constantly changing balance between what the dresses are worth in time/materials and what consumers are willing to pay. Reply When I was in Cambodia I met some women who worked in sweatshops. They were extremely grateful for these jobs. One of the women told me about how her son starved to death some years ago because she didn't have enough money to feed him. She works for a tiny amount of money and in terrible conditions, but she's happy because she can feed her young daughter and she can afford a tiny apartment so she no longer has to live at the dump. Without the sweat shops, or as they call them, garment factories, they would have none of that. I'm not saying I agree with the way they treat their workers (don't even get me started on how this woman lived in poverty so the company could have more money), but I think they are helping the impoverished people they employ. Sorry if my thoughts are a bit jumbled, I've been up for a while. Reply in regards to the ethics of having something made in china we may consider their factories to be sweatshops but they consider them to be a living. factories are closing down at a very fast rate (30-50% in some areas) and their young workers area grateful for any work that they can get. china doesn't seem to have much in the way of welfare i would say that it is un-ethical to boycott a countries goods on these grounds Reply My solution to this was to get a seamstress. I just met with mine today for the second time to look at fabrics. THere are lots of talented people out there who sew for a living, and the results are much more affordable than designer gowns. So I went to the local (and locally owned) fabric store and asked for a recommendation, talked to two women, and picked one. She picked up a pencil at our first meeting and basically drew the dress I wanted that I could not find anywhere. What I've learned so far is that if you want a dressmaker that will design something for you, you will pay more, around $500-$1400 where I live. If you're just looking for someone to work from a pattern the cost can be much lower. Either way, the cost is still less than most designer gowns and you don't have to pay for alterations. Today I picked the fabrics for the gown with her and my mother. That's another possible way to cut costs or to know you're getting the very best French lace. Since I wanted something specific that I couldn't find anywhere, this was the right choice for me. I haven't seen the finished product yet, but it's incredible to basically be able to ask for whatever I want, instead of being told what I should want. So basically, I strongly recommend checking out the seamstress option! Reply Honestly, this debate is killing me. I thought I'd be able to get around the made-in-Taiwan-by-underpaid-workers-and-then-sold-by-nasty-stores-for-too-much-money issue by buying a lovely vintage dress. I like the vintage dress styles and my ring is also vintage, so it seemed like a perfect fit. I'm even petite, so I thought fit should not be such a problem. Unfortunately, when you don't live in an urban area, most of the vintage shopping you can do is over the internet. And how comfortable is anyone buying such a special item without trying it on first? On top of that, my fiancé doesn't like lace or pouf. Sometimes it seems like he doesn't like anything vintage. So I start looking at the J Crew dresses on ebay, and then look up information about their manufacturing practices, and I still feel yucky. Why does this have to be so hard? (Sigh) I've got the wedding dress shopping blues. Reply I have one objection to this complicated thread. I will state it short and sweetly. Ethics is determined by the action itself and not the cause. Steeling from a morally corrupt bussiness if a cause, the action is steeling. Steeling is wrong. Therefore, the cause is wrong as well. If you think it's ok to steel from a morally corrupt place (steeling is morally corrupt as well) then you are saying that it is ok to poke and eye for an eye. This, if you followed your ethics and values consistantly, would mean you also supported the death penalty for an crime of murder. If you do, then fine, your cool. If not, I find it hard to believe that all you wonderful life loving people actually do, then there is a flaw in your logic. Reply hello all, I understand how complicated this issue is,but it can't be ignored. Just because an issue is complicated doesn't mean turn the other cheek. I'm glad someone brought this up because so many people turn into crazed "gotta have it no matter what" brides! I also want a dress I can't afford, which will test my creativity, but not my morals. Set high standards for yourself, in every aspect. Living with items and choices you can feel good about is worth the effort "expense". Question everything. Stephanie 😉 Reply I had my heart set on a dress like Dita Von Teese's Viv Westwood creation but didn't want to spend £1000 let alone the £10,000 the original cost. I have over a year so I looked on Ebay, specifying 'Prom' and 'Vintage'. I found a new dress (coming from a bridal shop that was closing down), that was made in the Uk and I got it for only £50! The only thing it needs is a dryclean having got a little crumpled in storage. So first thing – get a tape measure – check your measurements (then add on an inch for movement) and then check out Ebay. A dress can always be taken in. There are new dresses, tonnes of beautiful vintage dresses that could be updated cheaply and it is recycling. I also got a couple of wonderful dresses for my bridesmaids too for around the same cost! Reply Read more comments ‹ 1 2 3 › Join the conversation Cancel ReplyYour email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *Comment Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. Sign me up for your offbeat awesomeness newsletter! No-drama comment policy Part of what makes the Offbeat Empire different is our commitment to civil, constructive commenting. Make sure you're familiar with our no-drama comment policy. Biz owners & wedding bloggers Please just use your real name in your comment, not your business name or blog title. Our comments are not the place to pimp your website. If you want to promote your stuff on Offbeat Bride, join us as an advertiser instead.


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RAML Web Tooling Unleashed!
I'm excited to announce that we've recently made available to the RAML community a new API Designer, API Console, and API Notebook, built around a new RAML JavaScript parser released as part of the RAML workgroup. All of these are available under open-source licenses, and all may either be downloaded and used on your own site or are hosted as part of the APIhub.com service. You can find them on the projects page of RAML.org.
How did we get here?
I'm extremely excited by the opportunities APIs unlock for our customers and for us all. APIs enable data exchanges, and therefore enable creativity and innovation. But that potential is crippled if the APIs themselves are obscure, difficult to consume, and inefficient. At MuleSoft, we believe the key is to bake in good design from the beginning: start with the consumption experience, the "APX" or Application Programming eXperience, craft it purposefully for your intended audience, and iterate on the design until they're not only satisfied but truly delighted. Then you know your API strategy only depends on executing to that design in order to succeed.
Reza Shafii, my colleague in charge of our API platform, will discuss this execution in his next post. But I'll focus here on the design, and specifically on the design of RESTful APIs. The key is to make the API itself expressible so easily, so cleanly, that designing and redesigning is incredibly quick and efficient. When iteration cycle times are expressed in hours rather than weeks, there's time even in urgent projects to get the design right. And if patterns of APIs can be developed and reused, or even borrowed from existing patterns, design time is further reduced, often dramatically, and the complexity of your APIs doesn't increase as their numbers grow.
How do we get to such quick, clean, pattern-driven design? Enter RAML, the RESTful API Programming Language, developed by the RAML working group (in which I'm a member) and released last month. You can read more about it on RAML.org. I believe it's the first time that RESTful APIs are expressible in a format that's as simple and compelling as REST itself. And it explicitly promotes the development and reuse of patterns: resource types, traits, schemas, and security schemes. It starts with YAML, which itself is optimized for human readability, and layers on top of it an HTTP resource- and method-oriented semantics.
Digging in a bit more: the API Designer is an editor that knows about RAML. As you type, the editor both auto-completes valid RAML at the point you're typing, as well as showing you a "shelf" housing all the RAML elements allowed at that point, and syntax-highlights everything. So if you prefer to type it's optimized for you, and if you prefer to click and insert it's optimized for you. As you're entering your RAML, the parser runs in the background, showing you any errors and explaining how to fix them. On the right side of the Designer we've embedded the API Console in its narrow mode, showing you the API right as you build it, as fully-interactive documentation and even a Try-It button. Try it? How? If you haven't yet implemented your API, you'll be able to "try" right away a mocking service that adheres to the API you've just defined. That's coming very soon. The API Console is the same view your API consumers will see, so you're truly experiencing what they'll see first hand.
We built these tools for use in our Anypoint Platform for APIs, but we knew they'd be useful for the entire API community, so we've just released them under open-source licenses for anyone to use in their own projects. We're strong supporters of the design-first approach to APIs and of RAML as a way to achieve that: simplifying and accelerating API design and consumption, and promoting more consistency across APIs, should help all of us in the API space to realize all this potential. We hope you enjoy using them as much as we do. And please, do let us know what you think, and whether you've found them of use in your projects. Perhaps you're building some tooling too, or are looking for an opportunity to put your creativity and ninja skills to great use in this space? If so, let's talk! (Comment here, or tweet to @MuleSoft or #RAML or @usarid, or email).

subset: commoncrawl


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Rational Animals -- Sightings
How should we understand the development of moral behavior? Is it religiously formed or could it be innate? Although there is much "debate" in America about evolution, Kristel Clayville notes that there's evidence that we've adopted aspects of evolutionary theory in the way we perceive animals. In addition study of animal behavior gives clues as to the way in which moral understandings develop. It's an interesting article, worth discussing. So, enjoy!
Sightings 1/12/2012
Rational Animals
-- Kristel Clayville
Definitions of what it means to be human have been sought out for centuries in many academic disciplines. Theology and philosophy have been at the forefront of this humanistic inquiry, but since Darwin's writing, biology and psychology have posited their own definitions. More importantly, biology and psychology have been used as an interpretive lens on the earlier theological and philosophical definitions of what it means to be human. In the public sphere, the theological and philosophical definitions have taken a back seat to the biological and psychological definitions. While this shift may seem inconsequential, it has a profound effect on the public's views of morality. Rather than morality having a theological or philosophical center or origin, it is now largely represented in media as the natural outgrowth of human evolution from animals, which situates animals and animal studies as the new center for biological and psychological definitions of humanity. Interestingly, despite the culture wars over the place of evolutionary theory in public life, new and popularly accepted definitions of human and animal relations imply an acceptance of the basic assumptions of evolutionary theory.
Consider several recent books, movies, and news articles about the inner lives of animals that have flooded the market in the past three to four years. Books on bird intelligence, getting into the mind of your dog, cross species friendships, human terrorizing of elephants through environmental destruction, and animal social organization and its implied morality have found homes on bookstore shelves. On the film front, documentaries like Project Nim, which follows the efforts of a Columbia University psychology professor to teach language to a chimp (Nim Chimpsky) have debuted at art house theaters, while big budget films like the Disney film Earth have offered audiences a window into the epic journeys of animal "families." Human curiosity about animals is pretty normal. Who doesn't want to know more about how ravens recognize faces and teach their young to do the same? Isn't it horrifying and illuminating that elephants grieve the loss of a loved one—or that they even have loved ones? Does Nim Chimpsky actually learn to communicate with humans or does he only mimic and placate them? Do social animals abide by a set of morals?
Closer attention to these mass media representations of animals reveals three basic trends in our contemporary relationship with animals and how we think about morality through animals: 1) We are interested in their experience of their world, and study of their experiences shows that animals have much in common with us; 2) We can learn about ourselves and our relationships with other humans by studying animals; and 3) Animals can teach us how to be moral.
The first trend—drawing similarities between human and animal experience—seems sentimental, aimed to circumvent rather than recruit our higher faculties of judgment. Moreover, the books and movies mentioned above draw mainly on narrative conventions to tell us a story about animal intelligence, and in fact these narratives could simply represent what their authors wish were the case—that humans and animals have similar experiences of the world. By extension, the similarities between our experiences of the world and those of animals lay the groundwork for an expansive notion of our duties to animals. None of the narrative expressions of our similarities go so far as to articulate an ethical project, but the implication is that similarities of experience warrant an equality of treatment in the ethical realm. In short: animals are just like us, so let's treat them better.
While rampant anthropomorphizing may inform the above narratives and their potential ethical projects, the second trend is highly rational and human-centered. An article that represents this trend appeared recently on the University of Chicago homepage, and it reports the conclusions of a study on rat behavior conducted by psychologists and psychiatrists at the University of Chicago. Previous studies on rats had noted that they could sense the emotional distress of other species. Building on these earlier findings, the study investigates whether rats could sense and understand the distress of their fellow rats, and to see what if anything the rats would try to do to alleviate the distress. Pairs of rats were put in cages for two weeks, after which one rat of each pair was freed. A large percentage of the freed rats worked tirelessly to liberate their cagemates. When confronted with the choice between eating chocolate—a favorite food of rats—and freeing their fellow rat, a large percentage of them chose to free their cagemate, then share the chocolate with the newly liberated rat. This study is fascinating for the information it offers about rat intelligence, emotion, and empathy, but the conclusions in the news article were not about the rats themselves. Instead, the conclusions posited that these findings could be used to increase empathy in humans.
Counter to the ethical position that humans are naturally selfish, this study of rats concludes that humans, like other social animals, find helping others to be its own reward. While the impetus of the rat study is to gain knowledge about rat behavior, the conclusions of the article on the study suggest that rat behavior is not an amoral category for the scientists conducting the study. In fact, rat behavior is synonymous with social animal behavior, and the rationale for studying social animal behavior is to study and possibly augment human behavior.
This humanistic, yet scientific enterprise posits psychological similarities between humans and animals on the order of the narratives in the books and movies above. In contrast, the similarities between humans and rats become part of a potential ethical project that is concerned with how humans interact with each other. There were no conclusions offered in the study itself concerning how the inner lives of rats might change the human relationship to rats and other social animals.
A third trend in the study of animals and morality stands in stark distinction to the narratives of animal intelligence and the study of empathy in rats; this group of books posits that animals are moral and that we can learn how to be moral from them. We aren't learning about animals, and we aren't learning about ourselves through animals, but in fact we are being taught by animals. The book Unlikely Friendships: 47 Remarkable Stories from the Animal Kingdom presents the reader with photos of strange animal pairs, often predator-prey pairs, along with a narrative of how they became friends and some indication of the depth of their friendship. Here animals function symbolically to ratify human feelings of being innately at odds with others, while also leading us out of our intractable differences. In fact, like these animals who have befriended their natural predators, we too can overcome our differences with one another and live in harmony.
So what can we make of these three trends in the study of animals and morality? All of these trends are represented in academic studies of animals, but these books, movies, and news articles are written for and marketed to the general public, suggesting that some of the assumptions of the academic scholarship have permeated contemporary culture. Most important among these assumptions is a version of evolutionary theory that posits a biological relationship between humans and other animals, and this biological relationship influences the psychological elements of our lives. While this is not a particularly radical statement, its acceptance motivates the creation and consumption of the books, movies, and articles mentioned above. Additionally, this modest acceptance of evolutionary theory by the public shows the extent to which the Judeo-Christian position of "subdue and dominate" has been subverted, at least intellectually, when thinking about animals and our relationships to and with them. Or to put my conclusion in moral terms, the ground of our duties to animals has shifted in the public realm from a theological and philosophical context to a biological and psychological context.
Earth. Alastair Fothergill and Mark Linfield, Dirs. Disneynature, 2007.
Holland, Jennifer S., Unlikely Friendships: 47 Remarkable Stories from the Animal Kingdom. Workman Publishing Company, 2011.
Horowitz, Alexandra, Inside of a Dog: What Dogs See, Smell, and Know. Scribner, 2009.
Maia Szalavitz, "Rats Show Empathy and Free Their Trapped Companions," Time Magazine, December 8, 2011.
Petersen, Dale, The Moral Lives of Animals. Bloomsbury Press, 2011.
Project Nim. James Marsh, Dir. Red Box Films, 2011.
Kristel Clayville is a PhD candidate in Religious Ethics in the Divinity School and a Martin Marty Dissertation Fellow for 2011-2012. Her dissertation is entitled Responsible Hermeneutics: The Interpretation of Religious Texts in the Environmental Ethics of Hans Jonas and Holmes Rolston III.
In this month's Religion and Culture Web Forum, Jonathan Wyn Schofer explores both how late ancient rabbinic narratives understand human vulnerability in relation to the environment, and the ethical instruction inspired by this understanding. Schofer proposes that "contemporary environmental ethics can learn much from considering these perhaps exotic rituals and stories," which "portray people as entrenched in natural processes."
Sightings comes from the Martin Marty Center at the University of Chicago Divinity School.


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I will be going out of town for a couple of weeks for training for my new job (I would insert a lot of bragging about the new job here but I don't want people at my old job to slit their wrists in complete jealousy so I'll leave it out). I thought I would share a few things with you that I think are good, important or otherwise tickle my fancy.
First of all.
There is a site that my husband visits every day. He has visited it every day since he discovered it on the web a bajillion years ago. It originally was just THE HUNGER SITE but over time it has added, support for BREAST CANCER, CHILD HEALTH, LITERACY, RAIN FOREST and ANIMAL RESCUE. We've supported them for free for years and we actually bought a goat once from the HUNGER SITE. Well, we donated goats in my Aunt's name, as a thank you for something wonderful she did for us. (She's a pretty wonderful Aunt, is my Aunt Suz). We figured she has a lot of STUFF and giving a gift like that was unusual but said that we loved and appreciated her. Which we do. You should go there. You should click on them daily. It will take you five minutes. And it will do good.
Second of all.
Our friend Mike's Orthodox Church is having a fundraiser. I'm not a religious person. At all. But I have to say that first of all, Mike is possibly the only person who was Christian as a part of WHO HE IS that didn't get on my last fucking nerve. This is probably because he is educated and not full of hocus pocus, which I like. And I figure, if you are going to support a fundraiser for a church, you should support one for the ORIGINAL Christian Church. So. If you are inclined, help out a good guy and his church. What is the worst thing that could happen? A church full of nice people gets some stuff they need.
Third of all.
You should read Smithsonian magazine. I know you don't read it. But you should. It's like that great history teacher you once had. The one who taught you things with such passion and such fascination about the subject - that to this DAY you remember the details of the FALSE DONATION OF CONSTANTINE. But you can't remember your own voice mail phone number. We subscribed to it a while back and never read it. It looked interested and we put them away to read "later". Later came when we moved. Oh my GOD.
What we have missed.
I have read Lewis and Clark's Letters. I have read about Frank Diggs and his unbelievable collection of photos of Jazz Musicians like Earl Hines. I have read about teacher Jane Elliot and the furor an experiment over racism caused. I have read about how the Roman army was CRUSHED at Kalkriese in detail, and the great archaeological finds at the site.
Do yourself a favor.
Get a copy of Smithsonian magazine.
It is exhilarating.
Thursday, April 12, 2007
A Few Notes Before I'm Gone For Two Weeks - Some Do-Gooding
Posted by Gidge Uriza at 8:44 PM
Labels: f, Fluff N Stuff


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May the Crafts Be With You: 15 Star Wars Etsy Items
15 Geektastic Star Wars Products From Etsy
Today is the 35th anniversary of Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope, and to celebrate, Mashable has decided to get its craft on by gathering the quirkiest Star Wars-related items on Etsy.
Etsy is a great place to find unique, handmade and vintage creations, especially ones that have a geeky bent. We found everything from clothes and custom shoes to cool tech accessories.
Check out our gallery above to unleash your inner Star Wars geek. See anything else we should have included? Let us know in the comments.
Thumbnail image courtesy Etsy, FineArtDesigns


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We've got questions, and you've (maybe) got answers! With another week of TV gone by, we're lobbing queries left and right about shows including Fringe, The Walking Dead, General Hospital and The Vampire Diaries!
1 | Do you think Fringe's Etta must/will return by the series finale in some way, shape, form or timeline? And did the death feel earned considering how little time we spent with her?
2 | Did you recognize Nikita's kidnapped child as a Pawnee Ranger?
RELATED | Ask Ausiello: Spoilers on Pretty Little Liars, Grey's, Glee, Bones, Sons of Anarchy and More!
3 | Was the visual beauty of Mockingbird Lane almost — but not quite — enough to distract you from its uneven pace?
4 | Which nomad has the surliest disposition: The Walking Dead's Michonne or Once Upon a Time's Princess Aurora? And why is Aurora so conspicuously swaddled in layers — will they reveal at some point à la Peggy Olson that she is with child?
5 | Did Revenge's all-too-brief Jack/Nolan scene make you realize how much Season 2 has neglected that bromance? And wasn't it nice to see Margarita Levieva sporting a realistic post-baby bump rather than having Amanda zip right back into her skinny jeans five minutes after delivering little Carl?
6 | When you saw The Good Wife's opening shot this week, did you think, "Oh no, not a sandwich fight"? And how jarring was it to see Matt Czuchry's normally suited-up Cary go super-casual?
7 | After that Homeland interrogation, The Academy of Television Arts & Sciences went ahead and inscribed Damian Lewis' name on a 2013 Emmy for Outstanding Lead Actor in a Drama, right? As for the B-story, did the kids' hit-n-run remind you of Kim Bauer circa 24 Season 1?
8 | Need further proof that Gretchen Mol's Boardwalk Empire widow is cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs? She had the guy to the right naked in her bathtub — and she killed him. In related news, who is Billy Magnussen and how do we get him a role on [insert any TV show that features gratuitous male nudity]?
9 | Can we go ahead and declare the all-star edition of RuPaul's Drag Race — with its lame challenges and ill-conceived pairs format — a total dud?
10 | Dear NBC: Why are you breaking up Revolution's momentum by taking it off the air until March? Haven't we (or at least V and FlashForward) learned that nothing good ever comes of this? And what's with the super-misleading promo for this Monday's episode?
RELATED | Matt's Inside Line: Scoop on Castle, Once Upon a Time, Nashville, CSI: NY, Haven, Dallas and More!
11 | Was anything on TV this week more heartbreaking than General Hospital's Sam realizing her emotional reunion with a presumed-dead Jason was merely a daydream? What's more, is anyone else peeved at the producers for delivering such a devastating fakeout? (Yes, we here at TVLine love us some JaSam.)
12 | Isn't Hart of Dixie doing a great job with its handling of the Wade/Zoe/George love triangle?
13 | Though we loved The Mindy Project's Diane-from-Cheers choice, was there a more genius costume than Mindy-as-Lil' Wayne on the Prairie?
14 | Was Sons of Anarchy's Juice too easily swayed into confessing all of his sins to Clay? And wasn't it a little too convenient that Clay knew exactly what questions to ask? And really, Jax? You choose the cozy living room of your cabin to chop up some dude instead of, like, the backyard?
15 | Given this week's episodes of Walking Dead (Merle is back!), Once Upon a Time (though Whale eventually got "healed") and American Horror Story, how large now is the membership of TV's Amputee Club?
16 | Did The X Factor's showy production values – the stages, the backup dancers, the pyrotechnics – coupled with the incessant screams of the audience swallow up the singers and leave you just whelmed? And yeah, we were all tweeting about it, but should judge Simon Cowell have made a point of drawing attention to host Khloe Kardashian's um, perkiness?
RELATED | The X Factor Top 16 Results Recap: Did the Right Acts Go Home?
17 | Modern Family's line between lovably bumbling and total doofus is a thin one for Phil. With the stuck-under-the-motorcycle bit, did the show stray too far into Homer Simpson territory?
18 | How are Supernatural's flashbacks to purgatory so good, but Sam's nostalgia trips so awkward?
19 | Kimberly Williams-Paisley on Nashville: Did she find the same fountain of youth that Scott Wolf did? (FYI: It's been over 20 years since Father of the Bride was released!) And haven't Rayna and Deacon had the same tearful conversation for at least two episodes in a row, with little change in their relationship?
20 | Are you ready for The Vampire Diaries' Elena to adopt a more Caroline-like attitude? The blonde's vamp transition was both harrowing and fun.
21 | Do you think the Project Runway All Stars producers feel ripped off that Wendy Pepper didn't provide any drama this go-around?
22 | Did Elementary's casting of recognizable Suits actor David Costabile as the Angel of Mercy spoil the drama? Or was the twist with David Harbour's doc enough to save it? And how funny was Sherlock's reaction to the very tall surgeon ("What's your role? Do you reach things off of high shelves for this one?")?
23 | Is anyone else pleasantly surprised by MTV's Underemployed?
Hit the comments with your answers — and any other questions you care to throw out there!


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In my code I have created MidiDevices for both my MidiInput and MidiOutput.
I have also opened these devices.
I have also sent a sysex message through to my external midi device.
The device is meant to respond with a sysex reply.
My question is how do I collect this reply?
Im not sure how to go about that?
Any help will be greatly appreciated!!
I can post code here if needs be, but I would really appreciate help with understanding the logic of this!!
Best regards


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The wonderful gang at ThingM (makers of the blinkM smart LED) have announced an interesting new product is in the works, the blink(1) programmable USB RGB LED status indicator. Plug the little open source nub into most any USB port – laptop, desktop, server, some Android phones, DD-WRT router – and then you can use apps (or create your own) to make the blink(1) LED light up to indicate an event. A tweet just mentioned me? Steady green light. Email from my wife? Three blue blinks. CPU overheating? Red alert!
From the ThingM blog:
ThingM has just launched a Kickstarter for "blink(1)". A USB RGB LED that builds on our BlinkM Smart LED. It's a super status light that packs three dimensions of information (color, brightness and pattern) into a single tiny package that fits into any USB port on nearly every device.
It makes it incredibly easy to connect any data source in the cloud or on your computer to a full-color RGB LED so you can know what's happening without checking any windows, going to any websites, or typing any commands.
I can't wait to get my hands on one – the Kickstarter is nearly funded, so I'm optimistic – to play around with the development tools. I'd love, for example, to have the Blink(1) tell me when a Renderman render has completed, or if I have a meeting in five minutes.


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Latest from The Jeweler's Bench
STACK OF THE DAY: Rainy Day Rings
It was a wonderful stormy weekend in Mill Valley. We brought a little sunshine into our day with a stack of yellow diamond and sapphire rings.
Travels of a Ring: From a sketch in Mill Valley to a New Zealand proposal
We have a beautiful collection of gemstones at Alix & Company. For this project our customer selected one of our beautiful green sapphires and we built a classic setting to show it off. It is a challenge with all rings to keep the gemstone sitting on top of the finger as rings like to rotate to ...


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Financial Support
UCLA School of Law public interest-minded students and graduates have access to financial support through the School and the larger university. Support is available for incoming students, students working in unpaid (or partially paid) public interest summer positions, graduating students, and graduates engaged in public interest work.
The School of Law's Office of Financial Aid and the Office of Admissions administer financial assistance programs for incoming law students.
Summer Public Service Fellowship Program
UCLA School of Law maintains one of the most generous law school programs to support students who engage in otherwise unpaid public interest work during the summer. The School of Law's Summer Public Service Fellowship Program provides stipends to all eligible students engaged in substantive, law-related public interest summer employment under the supervision of a legal professional in a nonprofit or government setting domestically or abroad. In summer 2013, approximately 230 students received stipends through the Program to work with more than 150 diverse organizations and agencies. The Program is administered by the School of Law's Office of Public Interest Programs.
Additional School of Law Affiliated Funding Programs
The Office of Public Interest Programs also administers a number of additional funding sources supported by donors. An example is the Justice John Paul Stevens Public Interest Fellowship, which honors United States Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens and supports two students engaged in otherwise unpaid summer work that promotes the public interest and social justice values that have characterized the work and career of Justice Stevens.
Independently or in coordination with the Office of Public Interest Programs, various School of Law Centers, Institutes and Programs also provide financial support to students engaged in summer public interest work in a substantive area of practice aligned with the mission of the specific Center, Institute or Program.
External Fellowships and Grants
There also exists an array of external fellowships and grants to support students working in a public interest capacity during the summer. The Office of Public Interest Programs maintains information on these funding opportunities and helps students identify and apply for these opportunities.
Public Service Fellowships
The School of Law's Public Service Fellowship Program seeks to support graduating students who have demonstrated a longstanding commitment to public service, enabling them to work with a variety of nonprofit organizations and government agencies, both domestically and abroad.
Professional Opportunity Program Fellowships
Through the Professional Opportunity Program, the School of Law and Liberty Hill Foundation have partnered to establish a one-year fellowship to allow successful Class of 2013 and 2014 candidates the opportunity to work full-time for up to one year with a nonprofit organization, government agency or judge. Participants are paid monthly stipends
Community Economic Development Fellowship
The School of Law's Community Economic Development Fellowship provides an opportunity for a graduate to pursue transactional legal work that advances the goals of community economic development in Los Angeles. The fellowship term is one year and the fellowship placement alternates annually between the community economic development units of Public Counsel Law Center and the Legal Aid Foundation of Los Angeles.
Gideon Fellowship
The School of Law's Gideon Fellowship, the first fellowship of its kind in the country, is a partnership between the School of Law, Gideon's Promise – a trailblazing organization that trains and places new law graduates and law students in southern public defender offices, and six public defender offices in the South. Beginning with the graduating class of 2014, one School of Law graduate will be selected as the Gideon Fellow, serving as a public defender with one of the School's six public defender partner organizations and receiving training and mentorship from Gideon's Promise. At the end of the one-year Fellowship term, the Fellow will move into a full-time permanent position as a staff public defender with the partner public defender office and continue to receive training and mentorship from Gideon's Promise.
School of Law New Graduate Opportunity Program
Administered by the Office of Career Services, the New Graduate Opportunity Program funds part-time, temporary work with nonprofit organizations and government agencies. Participating graduates have a unique opportunity to further build their resume and to enhance their legal skills while awaiting Bar results.
External Fellowships
There is a range of funding opportunities through postgraduate fellowships and government honors programs to support graduating law students, judicial clerks and public interest entrepreneurs seeking entry- and mid-level public interest opportunities. Working closely with the Office of Public Interest Programs, our students have been very successful in securing these exceptionally competitive opportunities.
The School of Law maintains a competitive Loan Repayment Assistance Program (LRAP) for graduates working in the public interest. Under the School's LRAP, administered by the Office of Financial Aid, graduates can apply to have a portion – and in some cases all – of the debt service on loans they incurred while at the School of Law subject to a forgivable loan from the School.
The School's LRAP is coordinated with the federal government's Public Service Loan Forgiveness Program and the Direct Loan Program's income driven repayment options, enabling the School to enhance its LRAP benefits.