text:
The humor in the situation…
If you don't just laugh at this point, you'd pull all your hair out!!
This from the satirical newspaper, The Onion…
WASHINGTON–After a series of closed-door talks, Scott Boras, the agent known for representing the highest-paid players in baseball, set another record for the game's largest contract when he finalized Manny Ramirez's $20 billion agreement with the United States federal government on Thursday. "Manny's .396 batting average last season with the Dodgers, as well as his playoff performance, proved that he is as important to this country as infrastructure projects, health care, and renewable energy development," Boras said during an interview, adding that Ramirez is especially satisfied with the indefinite length of the contract. "He's promised to cut 47 hours of antics this year and to make necessary attitude adjustments in order to remain solvent. Any criticism Manny receives for this contract is simply what comes with getting a huge amount of money from the government during a time of crisis." A clause in the contract states Ramirez could receive an additional $6 billion if he successfully saves the American auto industry
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Atta way DY.
XPAUL comes through.
Spring Training Update: Top 3: Pat Misch Pitching:
Tony Abreu puts out
Furcal walks
Hudson walks, Furcal to second
Martin doubles to deep center, Furcal and Hudson score, 3-0 Dodgers
Loretta bloops a single to left, Martin to third
DeWitt infield single to third, Martin scores, Loretta to second, 4-0 Dodgers
Young singles to center, Loretta scores, DeWitt to second, 5-0 Dodgers
Repko pops to second
Paul singles to left, DeWitt scores, Young to second, 6-0 Dodgers
Abreu flies to center
5 runs 5 hits 2 LOB End of 2 1/2 6-0 Dodgers
The D's are getting a lot of practice running the bases today.
Josh: LOL!!! Gotta love the Onion.
Waldis Joaquin relieved Misch before Repko's at bat.
Hey GNATS! Man's game biatch!
Just get used to this day in and day out against the Blue.
Amazing how any line-up without JP in it scores runs.
Jeff Weaver in?
Spring Training Update: Bottom 3: Jeff Weaver Pitching:
Travis Ishikawa strikes out swinging
Kevin Frandsen walks on four pitches
Rich Aurilia pops to right
Winn flies to Young in left
0 runs 0 hits 1 LOB End of 3 6-0 Dodgers
Dang Manny hasn't signed yet geez come on.
That's 25 million Manny. Sign the damn contract.
If he doesn't sign I will personally take a dump and mail it to Boras. lol
I prefer The Dodger broadcasters but I always like to listen to John Miller, which I never knew that he called games for the Giants.
Spring Training Updates: Top 4: Kevin Pucetas Pitching
Furcal flies to center
Hudson singles to left
Martin walks on four pitches, Hudson to second
Loretta 5-3 DP
0 runs 1 hit 1 LOB End of 3 1/2 6-0 Dodgers
joepierre – I agree with you in listening to John Miller in small doses, but living with gnat fans, I listen to him more than I should probably.
Spring Training Update: Bottom 4: Eric Stults Pitching: Hu replaces Hudson at 2B, DeJesus replaces Furcal at SS:
Renteria walks
Lewis lines to right
Molina flies to right
Sandoval flies to right
0 runs 0 hits 1 LOB End of 4 6-0 Dodgers
This is the first time I heard him speak outside of on T.V. He's very pleasant. Joe Morgan doesn't work for Giants, Does he?
Jon Miller is definitely better than Mike Krukow and Dave Kuiper (the Giants' cable tv announcers). I swear those two want to put on masks and ump the game.
Spring Training Updates: Top 5: Kevin Pucetas Pitching:
DeWitt grounds to second
Young strikes out swinging
Repko grounds out to short
0 runs 0 hits 0 LOB End of 4 1/2 6-0 Dodgers
joepierre – He is pretty pleasant until a gnat hits a homerun – LOL. I guess I just associate him with the gnats so I have mixed feelings about him. I am sure gnat fans feel the same way when they hear our announcers (Vin excluded – at least my family anyway).
What has the least offense? The Taliban or the Gnats lineup?
You can say that again, northstateblues they are some of the worst, I watch them on MLB.TV,
see…..as soon as I said it, it happened – LOL!!!!
The opponent's announcers always hurt when they call their teams HRs, Nelly
Just like now on Rowan's
northstateblues – definitely on Krukow and Kuiper 🙂
JoePierre, yeah, they're terrible. Like a couple of kids snapping towels in the locker room during P.E.
I'll usually turn on the Gameday Audio and listen to Vin, Charley and Rick on 45 second delay while muting the TV, that does the trick.
That is true joepierre 🙂
northstateblues – I do the same thing. Well, I am usually watching those games on computer anyway.
Stults is pitching BA, right now.
It's good that we MLB.TV watchers can choose our own broadcasters now. With that home and away feeds.
who's pitching right now?
Me thinks Stults just pitched his way out of contention for the 5th spot (not that he ever really had a legitimate chance anyway.)
Scott Strickland is pitching.
Spring Training Update: Bottom 5: Eric Stults Pitching: A.J Ellis at catcher:
Rowand homers to deep left, 6-1 Dodgers
Ishikawa doubles to right
Frandsen doubles to the gap, Ishikawa scores, 6-2 Dodgers
Aurilia bloops a single over Hu, Frandsen to third
Winn hits a sacrifice fly to center, Frandsen scores, 6-3 Dodgers
Juan Uribe bloops a single to shallow right, Aurilia to second
Lewis singles to right, Aurilia scores, Uribe to third, 6-4 Dodgers
Scott Strickland relieves Stults
With Steve Holm batting Lewis steals second
Holm reaches on fielding error on Delwyn Young, bases loaded
Sandoval on a full count strikes out swinging
Rowand pops to DeJesus at short
4 runs 6 hits 3 LOB End of 5 6-4 Dodgers
I thought I'd leave with a comfortable lead but, It looks like a close game.
Have to go.
Hope we find out about Manny tonight.
See Yas
…so is it too late to look into getting Cruz? I am with dodgereric and the rest. With or without Manny, pitching is the bigger issue I think 🙂
Bye joepierre – take care!!!!
Spring Training Update: Top 6: Bob Howry Pitching:
Paul flies to center
Abreu grounds to short
DeJesus strikes out swinging
0 runs 0 hits 0 LOB End of 5 1/2 6-4 Dodgers
Subs are in now, back on Saturday.
Thank you Alex!!
About time yahoo updated it. Too bad is slow to updated when it's an exhibition game.
– – – – – – – – – – – –
Updated on Thursday, Feb 26, 2009 5:06 p
Thanks Alex!!!! Keep up the great work!!! We love it!!!
Look like 6-5.
I was wondering for the guys that the Padres were trying to get out of the Cubs and the Braves for Jake Peavy. Then why wouldnt a deal be possible that included Dewitt, Greg Miller plus another one of the minor league prospects 3B's that the Dodgers have a plethera for? Especially since we no have Hudson, Lowetta, and T Abreau back???? Or would Abreau be more appealing either way it would give the Padres 3 young inexpensive talented ballplayers for Peavy. It would allow for Chad B to grow into a very solid ace while watching one of the league's best.
The Padres would had never trade within the division and the best pitcher of cours.e
Yeah but didnt they trade Maddux last year and didnt they ask the Dodgers during the GM Meetings this past winter what they could offer?
That was Maddux this is Peavy. Peavy would had cost you more than the 3 you just name even the our SS prospect.
Just because they did it once doesn't mean they going to do it again.
I think Ned will come up with another SP during the season, but for now that price would be too high. Hudson's a 1-year rental, so you'll have to have DeWitt and/or Abreu for next year. Always a good chance Furcal breaks down as well. Plus being a division rival, Peavy actually would require more the likes of a Kershaw or Kemp.
I believe they'll be plenty of, lets say better-than-average pitchers (maybe not all aces) available near the deadline for less cost (if Frank's willing to absorb some salary.)
I would love to see this
Starting Rotation
C. Billingsley
H. Kuroda
C. Kershaw
R. Wolf
J. Schmidt (this is the biggest if in the rotation I have faith in the first 4 if Wolf stay healthy/McDonald(would love to see what he can do a full year but it might not happen or mayeb it will.)
I would hate to trade 1 of these 3 Miller, Ordenduff and Elbert and they turn out to be another Pedro Martinez.
Greg David Miller (born November 3, 1984 in Orange, California) is a Major League Baseball pitching prospect in the Los Angeles Dodgers minor league system. He was on the fast track to the majors in '03, but a shoulder injury in the spring of '04 slowed him.
Miller attended Esperanza High School, where he went 9-4 with a 1.50 ERA, 137 strikeouts and just 20 walks in 84 innings as a senior. He was selected by the Los Angeles Dodgers in the 1st round of the 2002 draft.
He started his first professional campaign in 2002 with the rookie league Great Falls Dodgers, helping them capture the Pioneer League Championship. Named by Baseball America as the league's eight-best prospect.
In 2003, he was honored as the Dodger organizations Minor League Pitcher of the Year after going 12-5 with a 2.21 ERA and 151 strikeouts in 142.1 innings for Single-A Vero Beach and Double-A Jacksonville. He was also named to the Florida State League All-Star team and the Baseball America 1st team Minor League All-Stars.
Entered the 2004 season rated by Baseball America as the #2 prospect and as having the best curveball and slider in the Dodger system.[1]
His career was derailed when he missed the entire 2004 season while recovering from spring training shoulder surgery.
Miller returned to action at the end of 2005, pitching in 12 games in Jacksonville's bullpen and recording 2 saves.
Pitched in relief for Triple-A Las Vegas in 2006. In 2007, the Dodgers attempted to return Miller to his starting role with the 51s but he struggled, accumulating a record of 1-1 with an era of 7.85 in 14 appearances with the 51s, including 7 starts. He was subsequently demoted to Jacksonville, where he improved slightly, finishing 1-2 with a 4.69 ERA in twenty games (seven starts) for the Suns.
In 2008, he was back at Las Vegas, working out of the bullpen for the 51s.
Looks like perumike still has a chance at the Manny sweepstakes, but Manny better hurry up. Using closest time, perumike is on the clock until 2:00 am tonight (early tomorrow morning). Then shepard is on the clock. Or it could drag on….
Too bad he had that shoulder injury.
I realize that he would cost but if you look at the prospects that are coming up and the current contracts of Furcal, Blake and Hudson they just log jammed the farm clubs. Not including DeWitt and Abreau,
There is Josh Bell, DeJesus, Hu, Gallagher, and Pedrozza all who are at the top of the infield prospects and should be ready within the next 2-4 years. This doesnt include 1st basemen or the pitchers that are on their way like Withrow, Miller, lindblom, St. clair, McDonald, Elbert, and Martin.
I also realize that it is very important to keep the minor leagues loaded, but a guy like Peavy who is a great competitor and who is loyal to a fault would be a type of player you would want in the clubhouse. If the Padres opened the door because they are having money troubles, then wouldnt that mean that they cant be that picky who they deal with. They are looking at least to 2-3 years before they will be competitive and possibly longer before they can compete for a solid playoff spot.
A quote from the Press Enterprise (Diamond Leung):
"There's no clock on baseball," Colletti said. "You can play as many innings as it takes to get it resolved."
So Ned knows something about baseball?
Steve phillips of ESPN says we should know by later tonight or tomorrow on Manny……….and, he believes he will take the deal.
Ned also says there's 4 balls, 3 strikes and 90 feet between the bases. There's no doubt he's been doing his homework.
He must also think there is no calendar, since he signs all the old guys…
OMG did Hu really hit a 3 runs homerun?
He must have been hanging out with that same Ump when Ethier had 5 balls and lost count.
In other news I've just heard that Jones k's 3 times hahaha.
– – – – – – – – – – – –
Nice game from Hu, Hoffman, Martin, Pascucci nice name there, Castro, Paul to name a few.
Actually that wrong he's now 0/3 with 3 k's I guess in 3 AB's in his 2nd games.
If anyone to see what they have done I'll posted the box scored.
I would NOT trade Blake DeWitt. I think he's a special player and Hudson and Furcal could both be gone for the season by week 2. Besides, Hudson's only here for one season, anyway. Peavy may be good…but he's a pitcher coming off a stint on the DL and a punk, to boot!
Just ask Duncan when he got into his head 2 yrs ago.
Isn't Pascucci a great name for a ball player?
Pierre leading off, 3 runs. Pierre nowhere near the line-up, 16 runs. = You make the call.
LMAO crash! If he does it'd be news to him!!
BTW robertvann34, welcome to ITD!!
If you're not new, I obviously suffer from Altzheimers (just like Joe.)
Good Evening ITD readers and writers!!!!
Welcome robertvann!!!
enchanted – you still aren't feeling the JP love are you? It's okay, it ain't happening for me ethier.
Good evening Nellyjune and Enchanted ~ Just think, if Manny is a Dodger tomorrow……….you won't have to worry about Juan!
I want to welcome you, too, Robertvann.
Little nothing blog entry up at http://northstateblues.mlblogs.com .
No drawing 😦 , but I'm getting there…
nsblues ~ I think your Top Ten is great. I am the first post on your blog.
Thanks Tru! Just felt it's silly of me not to have done anything over the past month. not EVERYTHING has to have a drawing, but it's nice to do one every now and again.
nsblues ~ I really enjoyed it. Keep up the good work.
northstateblues – just fabulous!!!!!
I'm a little worried. If Manny was going to take the contract why hasn't he done it yet. If there aren't any other takers.
I just really think there might be someone else biding on him.
That or BorASS is going to other teams asking if they want to up the ante.
The only thing that makes me think that the Giants aren't going to sign him was listening to the Giants managing partners this morning on their station. He didn't sound like he was that interested in Manny.
He said he would sign a Barry Bonds to that kind of money because he was a 5 tool player. That Manny isn't a 5 tool player & thus isn't worth that kind of money. He also said the fans like homegrown talent more and so they would be focusing on that. He didn't rule out signing Manny but he was very doubtful.
I think I'm going to have a sleepless night!
I think a lot of us are going to have a sleepless night, dcollins!
dcollins……..I think the same thing as you. I think Boras is using the little interest the gnats did have and making it bigger than what it really is.
….why hasn't he taken it already? ….a very good question
It's just Manny being money! lol
Dcollins, I think it's a smoke screen. I think the reason the sports media hasn't uncovered this "team" is because we have as good a chance of finding his "other team" as O.J. has of finding the "real killers".
I'm guessing if there is "another team" that they're talking to, it's the Giants, and you already said the extent of their interest, heheheh.
oh, and why he hasn't taken it yet is probably because Boras is doing the "going once… going twice… going 2 and a half… going 2 and three-quarters… going 2 and 27/32's…"
I think he is close to accepting the terms but it is a tough decision, not what he had planned but with out another offer it is not gonna improve, only worsen 🙂
Just announced on Sports Center — Manny has rejected the offer.
And we go around again????
One critical question is: does Manny want to come to ST?
Manny misses the adoring fans, while Boras wants to practice the art of postponement in negotiations. You never know when a middle-of-the-order OF gets hurt.
I feel a Sweepstakes title coming!
The Emporer has trained you well, young Anakin.
Awe, no sweeps!
Just when I thought Nells was good for it!
I coulda been a contenda, I coulda been somebody!
But I guess it wasn't meant to be. 😦
Are you kidding me? Why can't we get this thing over with already. This is just nonsense. Talk amongst yourselves. I gotta go pick up my daughter. I will be back shortly – geez!!!!!!! Can I use jhall's term? This un****ingbelieveable!!!!!! I understand the whole not wanting to go to ST thing, but this is just maddening to say the very least.
LOL!!!! shepherd. I think enchanted (or someone further down the line) has a shot at it now if ST is really the issue.
I hate to say it…..so maybe I'll think about it first??? Hmmmmm………
I will say GO DODGERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
At least I'm still a Bum!
so manny/boras rejected the offer..crazy!
It's gotta be they're waiting on a high-profile OFer to get hurt during Training, so that they'll have another kid in the sandbox to compete with.
With every offer turned down, I have a feeling fans are going to re-evaluate how they feel about him… especially for that contract. Can those two REALLY be sure that all Dodger fans will rejoice after the signing like the winged monkeys after the Wicked Witch of the West melted?
I'll be happy, but I can't speak for everyone.
I can.
When those 30 or more taters go flying, we'll all be cheering, even if he signs on March 27 and misses all but the Angels preseason freeway series.
I think I will be happy if it gets done also but I do find myself angered by this process. The Dodgers have been using the Stadium for extra things like concerts and the WBC not to mention the fact that the signing means more playoff games. So I don't think money should be an option. On the other hand how do Manny and Boras turn down every offer with nothing on the back burner?
Even if a OFer gets hurt in training what team can give him 3 or 4 years at 25+ Million per year. I would say the Yankees but I am thinking they are done spending. I just think its greed at its worst. I love watching him play but every day hitting refresh waiting for something to happen makes me wish a little more we would have signed Abreu…
It's not greed. It's negotiating.
"We love Manny Ramirez," said Dodgers Owner Frank McCourt, "And we want Manny back, but we feel we are negotiating against ourselves. When his agent finds those 'serious offers' from other clubs, we'll be happy to re-start the negotiations.
"Even with an economy that has substantially eroded since last November, out of respect for Manny and his talents, we actually improved our offer.
"So now, we start from scratch."
From Tony Jacksons Blog…
Sounds like McCourt is angered.
Negotiating involves counter offers and leverage. Boras has not countered anything as far as we know, and they have no leverage. They are pissing on their only bed.
(Sorry the news has apparently angered me. I will cool down…)
Or I should say it's negotiating when you don't feel the need for ST.
I don't think the real goal is 4 years at $25+ mill per year. I think the goal is as much as Boras can get. It may shake out at 3 years $69 Mill.
Incidntally, we should start another Sweepstakes for the final total. I predicted 3 years and $69 million total a few months ago. Even if I'm lousy at the timing, I still think that may get the deal done.
Heck, Nells, I'd even take $68 million. What about it, huh?
Is it like the Price is Right, can I take $1. I think it will take much longer than we would all hope. Hoping before the season starts but who knows. I like McCourts comment about Boras showing him the serious offers from other clubs. I remember an interview with manny shortly after he came to LA and was telling everyone how much he loved it there. Someone asked him if he would want to sign with LA in the offseason even if they could not offer max. His answer was something to the point of I have made a lot of money already.
Apparently not enough.
I predict
3 years 72 Million
Well edog, at least the bed will be warm for awhile. 🙂
See, with a 3-year deal, one of the years can be for more than A-Rod is making. That may be the goal.
LOL Shepard!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
*Shepherd … sorry
NSB, I find that highly offensive. I may fine you a UOMe, too. 🙂
Warm only at first… lol
On the good side, way to go Dodgers sticking it to the Giants.. Spring Training but still looks good to see.
I say, bye bye, ta-ta, see-ya-later Manny. What's the worst thing that can happen? The Dodgers don't win a World Championship? Gosh almighty. Juan Pierre plays 150 games? Well, now you're talking…but seriously, I'll still get a kick out of the young guns mature and carve a dynasty–and watching Manny squirm as February turns into March …and then Spring…and then… Oh, he'll sign with someone, because he wants his career stats and can't afford to waste a year at age 37. But if there is karma, he'll end up signing for less than the $20 million he "opted" out of Boston for, and Boras will choke on a dollar bill. Manny was a blazing meteor…a So. Cal. phenomenon…but that light show has fizzled and left only black smoke and ill will. It's over. Let's move on. The only thing that heals the wounds now is if, God forbid, Manny speaks on his won behalf and clarifies his stance. So long as Boras remains the mouthpiece, only pollution can fill the air.
Well Kahli, if you say pollution and millions of $$, I would agree.
Jay Leno once said, "We Angelinos never trust any air we can't see!"
ARod had to go around Boras to get the deal he wanted. Maybe Manny needs to do the same. Boras and the Dodgers are not good friends.
LMAO!!!! Shepherd. Before I say yes, let me check with the Bank of Dodgereric to see if we can work something out. However, last time I checked, Perumike was going to owe the Bank of Dodgereric 60 cents.
What if it's Manny who doesn't want to play in ST. Joe talked about Dick Allen holding out several times, just to avoid ST.
I remember reading Koufax' autobiography. He considered negotiations to be a game. He liked to hold out and considered it to be sport.
One difference is that Koufax would end up signing for $125,000
Can you imagine the nad it would take for the Dodgers to say, "We are moving on. We wish Manny the best." There is NO WAY ANY TEAM would pony up more cash…if anything, they'd offer less. Boras would have overplayed his hand. BUST! The last time that happened was…now let's see…oh, yeah, last year, when the Yankees told Boras and A-Rod to jump in the lake. Too bad A-Rod was able to weasel his way back in, much to the humiliation of Scotty. Gosh…do I sound bitter or anything?
Emotions are enemies of good negotiating.
Moving forward Dodger line-up:
I was there about 30 minutes ago kahliforni. I agree Boras is getting out of hand. We will see what happens.
Enemies are good at negotiating emotions…
Anybodybutpierre = Ramirez
That's my favorite equation in all of mathematics.
It's the #8 spot that is scary Kahli because without Manny, JP will play everyday.
600 times between April and October I would have to watch Juan Pierre hit an I am to old for that
jungar's too old!
I couldn't make that up. |;^]>
Maybe they can release JP too. Pay him over the next 5 seasons.
…there's a song in there somewhere jungar – LOL!!!!
That would be two 5-year deals with JP. Nah!
If not Manny, then play a kid…Repko, Paul, DY. Why waste time on Pierre if you're Joe? Wait, check that. I answered my own question……… If Manny wanted to be a Dodger he would be by now. It appears he simply wants top money. Believe a man at his word. When the season ended a reporter asked Manny if he could be happy anywhere else and he said (and I paraphrase) "I have a good time wherever I play."
Can we release Colletti and pay him his salary over 5 years…
…while you are at it, let's find a way to make Frank sell the team 🙂
Can the buyer take 5 years to pay McCourt… lol
Mark Cuban…. If your out there make him an offer.
Where's that bucket of spit?
I think we have the right price!
Seriously, if it's my $25 million, I'm careful.
If it's Frank's, not so much.
……..I wish he would 🙂
Maybe Frank and Jamie could throw in a house in Malibu. How are they gonna live in 4 houses anyway?
Pedro Gomez just reported that if the Dodgers would offer 2 years at $25 per Manny would probably take it.
So we're off by about 5 million.
I think they should then offer him 25 for 2 years and take off his option after the 1st year.
To me if that doesn't get it done, then don't do it and have a great summer Manny.
I'm getting really getting hacked off now.
He is going to grumble for $5 million. Yes that's a lot of money but on the way home tonight I heard the Giants signed the Cy young winner to a 1 year extension for $600,000. & I thought about that. That is like 10+ years of my salary. He is getting that for 1 year. Wow!
Then Manny is basically guaranteed for 25 + 20 million if he wants it.
If he liked it here so much then why doesn't he sign? So he's going to go somewhere else for a few million dollars more? That means either he didn't like it so much or he is just plain greedy. My guess is both.
It was fun watching him last year and he built up much goodwill with us fans, but I think we are seeing him for who he really is.
Manny is an amazing hitter and entertaining to watch but he is really showing what he is all about. I'm starting to think I don't want that on my team.
They have given them 4 different offers and been rejected on all of them. From what I've heard all they've asked for back in the return negotiatons is they still want 4-5 years @ $25 per year. That isn't happening from anyone else. They have asked for the opt out clause which they were given. The Dodgers have offered something very close dollars and that he can get a new contract for that amount or more in a year or 2 depending on if they opt out.
I know baseball is a business and this is part of it, but it really is to the point where I'm turned off.
I'm starting to think it's time for me to just watch little league because I'm really getting bent!!!
Look at it this way:
The Dodgers haven't changed their offer financially, either. They've just changed the terms, add an option here or there, but no money.
It's a game and a pride thing. On both sides.
As far as comparing with your salary, this isn't your work league. This is entertainment. You should be smiling dammit!
Comparing the salary is just the thought that went through my mind when I heard the contract for Lincecom and I thought about how much money that is. I know they generate tons of money and work pretty much every day for 6-7 months. But when it's getting tight for everyone many are pay check to paycheck and they are just plain greedy then, well, I'm not smiling.
I know the business of baseball & sports but I think it's getting a little bit crazy and for me really tainting something that I've loved all my life.
I'm sorry but there is something in it that just doesn't sit right in my stomach with this.
Sorry. Just trying to make light. Obviously, my timing is bad.
No worries Shep. I'm just really annoyed right now.
I can't wait to see what enchanted and messagebear have to say about this one 🙂
The good news is I'm still in the running for the sweepstakes!!!
Go Blue!!!
Bring the Ring in 2009!!!
I am thinking enchanted on the 13th now. It's a perfect day for Manny to sign…..Friday the 13th because this is so much like a nightmare right now…
March 15th… beware the Ides of March…
That is true northstateblues 🙂
So Manny has turned down the last offer. Enough already!
I really thought it was gonna get done this time, i say 1 more offer and then cut ties completely. It's leaving a bad taste in my mouth at this point and getting to where I don't want him to play for us. I know all of us on here are hardcore Dodger fans so we've been keeping up with this saga nonstop and are pretty ticked at this time, but what about the average fan? will they be pissed or just happy to see him if he does sign. I dont want there to be any booo's when he comes to bat the first time at Dodger stadium this year (unless he's with another team) I hate to see a Dodger boo'ed at home, it was even hard for me to watch jones get boo'ed last year. So at what point is this not worth it anymore, we ARE going back to the playoffs, the only competition will be the dbacks and I dont think their offense will keep up with their pitching. Getting there won't be the issue but we will miss Manny a lot come the postseason I believe. These are the ramblings of a very confused albeit loyal Dodger fan that is tired of this issue….btw, 16 runs on the gnats today, hahahahaha
Splash — Good post & I agree completely. I also think the Gnats are improved and with their starting pitching they will be in every game.
I will never boo a Dodger. No matter who they are. I might not cheer for them or applaud for them, but I will never boo them.
I didn't & wouldn't boo Jones last year when I saw him. It is extremely rare for me to boo someone. But I might boo him this year if I see him.
The Dodgers will win the Western Division this coming season is my prediction, with or without Manny. We have hitting anyway. Pitching will be the big surprise. I know it will be a good season. GO DODGERS!
Good evening heartruss – how are you doing?
screw money ramirez… move on play pierre for all I care… screw money, he doenst want to play in LA he wants to get paid in LA… lets move on
Hey Dodge16!! ……..I am kind of feeling the same way, but I really prefer Repko or DY in the outfield.
dcollins – that sure was telling, wasn't it? Like many have said tonight once the offer was declined once again. If Manny really wanted to be a Dodger,he would be one already, right?
I got this from a link from D4.
It is a statement earlier today from the Giants president.
Giants president Larry Baer said he exchanged messages with agent Scott Boras on Wednesday, but nothing had changed. Boras did not solicit an offer and Baer said the Giants have not made an official one.
"We haven't been asked to make an offer in the last couple of days," Baer said Thursday. "I don't want to characterize it beyond that. People are saying it's accelerated (with the Dodgers). I can't tell you there's any difference today than a week ago. There may be, but it hasn't been communicated to us."
The comment "We haven't been asked to make an offer in the last couple of days…" to me means BorASS is trying to play the Giants vs the Dodgers to generate more money. To me it sounds as if BorASS is going to other teams saying do you want to make an offer???
good evening, soon to be good morning. How r u Nellyjune?
…tired of going around in circles with the Manny circus. It's getting a little ridiculous at this point.
Yup Nelly. I was thinking that this morning! & I'm still thinking it now.
Shep — if you're still there, sorry if I wasn't nice. It wasn't meant towards you!!! I wasn't upset with you buddy. I'm just a little hacked at watching the news & the world events and then go to something for fun and to escape and see the greed and it just gets to be bothersome.
I was just venting here…
I almost feel like Boras is daring the Dodgers not to sign him. It's like he thinks we can't do this without Manny, which maybe we can't, but I have no doubts, Manny or not, our young core is going to give it all they got. The only fear is Manny becoming a gnat……any other team, not a problem, but the gnats, that would lead to some serious fan issues.
Here's some instant solace, courtesy of dodgerblues.com:
It's time to forget Manny and move on. A man of his self-centered greed and character is not worth pursuing, regardless of how well he can hit. His value on the current market is nowhere near what the Dodgers have offered him, so I hope Frank and Ned have finally had enough and let him sit out the season. No other team is going to give him the kind of contract that he wants, so the Dodgers are fools if they even repeat their current offer.
We are forgetting the really important things……who cares about Manny. Andre is hurt – LOL!!!!! I didn't know about that until after school sometime. I should be ashamed for not keeping up with my status of Ethieraholic – LOL!!!!!!! I know it's nothing serious, but when I first heard it, I thought of perumike and his pianos and perhaps one of them landing on the wrong guy 🙂
Boras spoke also .
very interesting reading boys…….I just want it to end one way or another.
Good article D4.
I'm over it now. I feel that if they get him great. If they don't great.
I'm just going to focus on who we have and enjoy their efforts like the one today against the Gnats!!
Yes it was ST but if they lost I'd be hearing nothing but grief tomorrow at work.
I even am still having them do their usual "Dodgers S***k" comments. Which I don't understand seeing as they were one of the worst teams last year & we were a few wins from the World Series. I just let them know I'd be as bitter as well, if my team had never won. Ever…
….it is a good thing to have in your back pocket in case the gnat fans in the house start talking about the Dodgers.
ST or Little League, I want the Dodgers to prevail dcollins I'm with ya!! Let Manny be stressed. I believe in MY BELOVED DODGERS REGARDLESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I still consider Manny a DODGER but I have moved on.
Good Night ITD Dodgerfaithful,
We have seen bleaker situations than this with more urgency. When Tommy summoned Kirk Gibson to the plate in 88, we were supposedly out matched with no hope. Kirk hobbled his way to the plate and came through, we shall do the same again. Things can look one way one moment and totally different the next, unless you just give up.
We have some talented ball players, and Manny has the chance to be a part of it if he so choses. If not we are still the Dodgers damn it, and the Dodgers will do what the Dodgers need to do.
Have a great day today and GOD BLESS THE U.S.A. and ALL OF US AS WELL 🙂
Oh yeah I havent heard anyone say this so I will
MY apologies to anyone who did mention the fact that we BEAT THE GIANTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Good Night ITD readers and writers!!!!! Great stuff dodger4life. You are remarkable!!! Take Care, Sweet Dodger Dreams and God Bless to all 🙂
After all, tomorrow is another day…
As we all know, it's been a very long time since the Dodgers have had a legitimate superstar on the roster. It was great having Manny fill those shoes last year. From all that I've read this evening, it looks like Boras has left the door open, so there's still hope for those of us who want Manny on the team. But let's not forget that if Ned hadn't answered his phone last July, we would not be having this discussion. And we wouldn't be going through these emotional ups and downs. Oh yeah, I'm not happy about the situation, but, then again, what do I know? It's doubtful that the media is being given all the particulars, so we only get tidbits of information and our imaginations take over. Aarrrrgghhhh! It's gotta get better. My only consolation is that it ain't over til it's over.
Here's hoping every owner in baseball comes up with a phantom "sore ear" every time Boras dials the telephone. Collusion? YOU BET!
Ok, I just got off of work, no resolution yet but from the latest article it seems they reached an agreement on the money and years but some of the other terms wern't quite right, so they are going to talk untill 12 tommorrow afternoon. Hopefully when I wake up some form of agreement is made, I want him back but my patience is almost up. GO DODGERS!! GO DODGERS!!
I want him back as bad as anyone else, but this is enough. How much money can he spend in a year anyway? If they were offered the moon, would they take that? It's time for the Kids to step. Forget those jerks.
Good morning ITDland ~ So, the latest offer was rejected…what else is new? However, as bluesplash mentioned, both sides will talk today. Same old story. I wanted Manny probably more than anyone did but, I am getting a little "miffed" at this whoe situation. It's so frustrating to get your hopes up time after time and then have them shot to hell.
Are the Dodgers trying to be too cute in dealing with Manny? They want to defer his wages. Now the giants are back in the game.
What is with this 20 billion thing?
All I've got to say is…
Now batting second for your Los Angeles Dodgers, left fielder, #9, JUAN PIERRE.
Enchanted ~ THAT'S NOT FUNNY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Good (?) Morning ITD'rs
I can not believe Manny rejected the offer….man if he does goes and plays for the Giants….OH MAN…I think L.A. will BOOOOOOO him each time he steps to the plate. And it will be LOUD! Well hopefully today they come to an agreement. If not then JP will get his way…
Hopefully Ethier ankle is doing better. I know it is a minor injury but hey, he still needs to take GOOD care of it.
Martin my man a home run on the 1st inning…yeah baby! Hopefully he does the same once we start the real games…
I have a question….when JP was playing outfield (before Manny came into the picture)…did JP joined Ethier & Kemp on the jump-turned-bump move they do at the end of the games?
From CNN Truth & Rumors on why Manny rejected the contract.
If that is true I understand, he wants the interest on that money.
Good Morning ITD readers and writers!!!!
enchanted – still no love for JP? This is my biggest problem with the whole thing is I don't want to go through another year of this. Andre is not part of the equation this year, and it is still bothering me so it has nothing to do with Andre vs. JP, like it appeared last year.
Good Morning Rose, dcollins and trublu!!! dcollins, are we doing better this morning?
dcollins ~ I posted the same thing on FB! I guess we will know by the end of the day.
I had had it with Manny quite a while ago, but I have to give him one thing on this latest offer, if the reporting of terms is correct. How would you like to be one of Frank's creditors – unsecured, which is what this deferred payment business is. I think Manny may have more cash on hand than Frank. I think Frank is so underfinanced now that the hard times are hitting in the real estate field, I wouldn't trust him for a dime into the future. The guy's going belly up, I hope, and that's why he's pulling all these deferred payment deals.
SELL THE TEAM, you owner FREAK!!!
dcollins – I just skimmed through the article, and just perhaps, that does make sense.
So, with that said, who's on the clock now?
So……..I guess we are all in agreement that Frank needs to sell the team 🙂
Good morning, Nellyjune. Yeah, it's Friday!!
Nelly I believe it is Sheperd on the clock now
Yep, my broom award is still on life support!
Shep ~ I hope you win………that way this whole thing will be over!
If it happens, I will just state with perfect confidence:
And if you beleive that, "there's this bridge in Brooklyn…"
The Dodgers have made 4 offers to Manny they knew he wouldn't accept is how I see it.
Someone said:
It's time to forget Manny and move on. A man of his self-centered greed and character is not worth pursuing, regardless of how well he can hit. His value on the current market is nowhere near what the Dodgers have offered him
They offered him 10 million dollars to play next year with the rest of the money coming later. So his check by the dodgers in 2009 would be a tad smaller than Juan Pierre's 10.1 million and 5 million less than Schmidt. So..rethink that. Pay him or Don't is fine, but the dodgers are lame.
I agree with jungar, who is older. 🙂
Hi folks–
It's been a long time since I have posted–with some interesting work last fall and various travel, I have not been able to check in as much. But Spring is in the air, and you gotta love it.
As for the Manny deal–I say Bravo! to Frank, Ned and the organization. I think we should, and probably will, sign Manny soon, but obviously some lessons have been learned.
First, long-term contracts for players in their late-30's is just not a good idea. Perhaps it took a recession for people to figure this out, but 36-year-old Manny was seeking a contract that would have him playing until he is 42. Now, it's entirely possible that he will, and certainly some great players (which Manny is) have played that long, ane even at good or great levels. (Though, that raises two questions–was that aided by steroids and is Manny aided by steroids?) But you just don't bet on that. Five years ago, teams would have jumped all over themselves to make that kind of deal. Heck, one of the Dodgers' dumbest ever deals was the 1999 7-year contract for then 34-year-old pitcher Kevin Brown. Surprising no one who understands anything about baseball, Brown pitched well for a couple of years, and then was history. (Meanwhile, the Dodgers rejected a deal for future first ballot HOFer, and then 30-year old Mike Piazza for the same money and time. And after Piazza accepted a slightly lesser deal with the Mets, the tail end of even that long-term deal was not ideal–missing out on the Silver Slugger his last three years, missing playing time, and not hitting his usual .300, but of course the money was a lot less relative to the times, and he was still the best offensive catcher in history). So the Dodgers have stuck to their guns and rightly so.
Second, never, ever trusting Scott Boras. It's really hard to imagine a more despicable human being than this guy. For starters, it seems clear that Manny and the Dodgers are both now discussing a deal for 2 years, $45. The sticking point here seems to be how much is deferred. That's pretty important, to be sure, but with interest rates pretty low, not really a deal-breaker at this point. Moreover, the actual cash here is not much, either. But Boras got Manny to force himself out of his Boston contract that had two club obtions for $20 Million a year for 2009 and 2010. There seems very little doubt to me that, had those options stayed, the Dodgers would have obviously exercised the 2009 option and Manny would be playing ball right now, and its not hard to imagine some sort of agreement to have the 2010 option vest based on certain performance standards, or even just getting the Dodgers to agree to exercise the second year (after all, who here would be willing to right now gurarantee Manny $20 Million in 2010–I would do it–and since the team is giving Manny the 2010 option, so are they). But, while he is maybe going to get his client an extra $5 Million (minus taxes, and agency fees), he is dragging his poor client's reputation through the mud–first in Boston, now here in LA. But here's the kicker–Boras would have gotten nothing from the $40 Million Manny was already locked in for since another agent negotiated the deal, but he gets 10% of whatever comes of this deal. An extra $5 Million out of $45 Million for the price of your reputation is not a great deal. But $4.5 Million for nothing is a pretty sweet deal for Boras.
This is really not that new with this guy. I am not a big fan of JD Drew, who is tremendously talented but never perforemd that well. I think he tends to dog it way too often, manages to be chronically injured, and seems to have very little ability or willingness to play through pain (how is it that Cal Ripkin played 162 games for 15+ seasons, but JD Drew, even when healthy needs a day off every week or so). But despite that, everyone has always thought of him as a community-minded, honest guy. But he opts out of his deal a month after promising to stay. Adrian Beltre left after the organization had stuck with him for years until he became an MVP candidate, and he immediately receded. And while A-Rod is probably a chump, I don't think it was his idea to try to show-up the 2007 World Series by announcing he was opting out. But behind all this nonsene is Scott Boras.
Now Boras says that there are other teams that are interested. Even though a recession was clearly coming in July, that was feasible to see. After September, harder to imagine, and when Manny became a free agent in November, harder still to imagine, but possible. But the universe is small–Yankees, Mets, Dodgers, Angels, Cubs, White Sox, Red Sox are the only teams with markets that would regularly support mega-stars like Manny. Most other teams can certainly sign guys when necessary–Cardinals, Phillies, Braves are at the top of that list. But when things are tight, its just hard for any but the richest teams to be able to afford someone as expensive as Manny. And as someone at the LA Times pointed out today, other big players—not necessarily as big as Manny–have taken pay cuts. The Yankees could always be in the mix, but have seemed disinterested from the start (and Boras has already ripped them off with the ridiculous Texiera deal–Tex may be good, but he's not that good). The Red Sox are obviously out. And others just aren't interested or need what Manny has. The only team that has been talked about is the Giants. Fine. Let the Giants sign him. The Giants are in no position to contend in 2009. They may have pitching, but you can only win so many games 1-0, based on a Manny homer and a Lincecum shut out. Until they fill out their team, signing someone like Manny is nuts. (Note–this is what made Manny a perfect pick-up for the Dodgers last summer, and still perfect now. While we wait for Hu, Abreu, and MacDonald to go from prospect to contributor, DeWitt, Kershaw, and Wade to go from contributor to star, and Martin, Loney, Kemp, Ethier, Billingsley, and Broxton to go from start to superstar, you can put Manny in the middle of the mix, surrounded by these guys, and win a championship.)
The long point here is that there are no other offers for Manny. In November, maybe people thought that there would be, but the Dodgers made a reasonable offer and were prepared to bid. No one else made a bid (partly, I think, because of the market, but also given the market, not a lot of teams were willing to get into a bidding war that high up against one of the few teams in baseball who can afford to outbid anyone, if they put their minds to it). Now, McCourt has very publicly called him on his BS–which is something that needs to be done constantly with Boras. And he's panicking. The news this morning is that he is still negotiating "within the parameters" they discussed. If there were other options on the table, he would have turned to them–like he has done with other players. But there is not, and it has been a brilliant showing of fortitude by McCourt and Ned to hold firm.
It's been a good off-season. Once again, we have protected the most valuable commodities on the team–the future. In fact, there was very little scare of a deal this season. The worst thing was the near-the-edge negotiation with Ethier, but arbitration was avoided, and that's what matters. It would be good to start locking in some of these guys into longer-term deals, but waiting to get the idea of the budget with Manny, and maybe seeing how the economy is and how that will affect salaries is not the worst or least-understandable thing for the team.
Being able to dump the drag that was Andruw Jones was good. Would I like to see a deal that would send Juan Pierre somewhere too? Yes (again, no offense to Pierre, for what he is, he is. But he's paid too much, espescially in this market, and if we have a Manny, Kemp, Ethier outfield, he just becomes unnecessary, and if he could start somewhere else, he probably deserves that opportunity, since that is what he wants). But, keeping him is a hedge on Manny (no, there is no comparison, but we'll need another outfielder somehow). And if we have delayed making some moves while patienly letting the Manny situatiion play-out, it is worth it, espescially if we see a deal that ends with Manny signing for 2 years at $45 Million.
Re-signing Furcal at a lesser price was good. I am not sure that Hu is ready, or that Abreu is the ideal shortstop (and see below about Hudson). But those guys are there in case Raffy gets hurt–and if he's healthy, he is a huge catalyst and really a joy to watch. Not sure about Ausmus, really, but whatever. Disappointed in a way to see Lowe go, because he was good and generally consistent (he would lose focus at some point every year, but so it goes), but he had made clear a long time ago that he was not staying in LA. Not sure why he did not like it, but we get a draft pick or two. As for Penny, probably for the best, particularly after seeing what he had to say. Penny does not seem that he will ever learn that to do well, you have to put the team first, and to do that means being honest about yor health. But a rotation of Billingsley, Kershaw, Kuroda, Wolf, and (Schmidt, Elbert, MacDonald, Stults) is just not one to be trifled with. Bills was the 10th best pitcher in the league (or in MLB–I read it somewhere recently) by ERA, and is likely to improve. Kershaw has an even higher ceiling, and could easily be there too. Kuroda seems to be just what he is, and that's not bad. If Wolf comes through, that's great. Schmidt may finally be healthy, and he's still got potential to be a very good pitcher (a 1, 2, or 3 pitcher), and we just need something at the back of the rotation. Elbert is a question mark about talent, but a lot of up-side. Stults can be a fifth (or sixth) starter on most teams, and still may prove more solid. And MacDonald might have the potential to be up there with Bills and Kershaw, and certainly showed some brilliance in his big league debuts last season.
I am not as enamored of the "O-Dawg" as some people are. But Vin Scully clearly loves him, so that ups his value to me. I would have been fine with DeWitt starting at second, and seeing more opportunities for Abreu and Hu, but if Hudson performs like he is capable of, it's a good deal. As it is, it's a one-year deal, heavy on incentives, and we have a lot of depth there. With Hudson and Furcal's injury history, that depth is a good thing to have, and the smart money is on seeing at least one of Abreu, DeWitt, or Hu in the starting lineup when we kick off our World Championship defense in 2010 (if not sooner).
25 million 15 million deffered, 10 million salary for 2009. Lying in the press, using the public to try and turn on the one guy…McCourt is doing everything he can to make it look like we are trying to sign the guy when thats exactly what he dosen't want
I don't mind Manny not playing LF for us, but to end up with Pierre when plenty of better affordable options existed is horrendus
Great to see you back, leekfink……….what a fantastic post! Looking forward to spending the season with you!
Jungar ~ By 3:00 this afternoon, Manny will be a Dodger.
Just finished War & Peas, but I mostly agree with lee, too.
If blu is tru, My accounts receivables will have grew!
LEEK that was impressive. It really helped me understand a lot of things. And it is true. I don't want to take side on either party (Dodgers Management vs. Manny's team). I understand why both are doing why they are doing. They both are thinking about the future, beyond 2010. They both want protection. I do hope that they do come into an agreement…like TRU said "By 3:00 this afternoon".
If it does fit, you must remit! 🙂
And other great moments in literature.
LMAO, Shep!!!
A little Manny news:
Leekfink – Welcome back!! You are always a welcome sight around here. Fabulous post by the way!!!
Good morning ITD Dodgerfaithful,
Leeflink: That was a very good post this morning, WELCOME BACK.
I shall have some coffee and soak all the mornings hogwash up…. for a moment…. in the meantime.
What a beautiful day, The sun has reappeared in my homestate. Its been a while. I hope all is fabulous in yours as well.
Now back to our regulary schedualed program :
Whatever it takes to win a championship………..
From what I saw, Manny will accept the $45 million over two years if it's real money paid in real time instead of this deferral BS. So, if you have the money, Frank, you'll have Manny. I'd still prefer that you SELL THE TEAM, and I still hope this depression hits you hard enough to have you go belly up.
More Manny updates, vote if we should pull our continue the offers to Manny:
I'm sure there are RED PENS in there I am adjusting this morning.
Good Morning dodger4life!!!! Your post looked great!!!!!
Good morning Dodger4life…..glad the sun is shining. maybe we can party tonight! We missed out on it yesterday.
Good morning again all, We play the M's today I see 🙂
Thanks Nelly, I am still waking up and adjusting to the day's brightness.
Party like Rockstars at that, Tru…..
I'm ready, dodger4life!!!
On another note, Jason Schmidt got roughed up in the B game. Actually, it was more a matter of control. He threw 21 pitches, only 10 of which were strikes, and the inning was ended after a walk to Jermaine Dye because Schmidt had reached his pitch limit.
Sorry about the length of the post, there. What can I say?
I try to never disagree with Jungar, but here I have to. Deferred compensation is pretty common, and in the current economy is all the rage in salaries (O-Dog's deal has a big deferred component, for instance, and the big deal with Jones was that we were able to defer a bunch too, though some was already deferred). With a deal this big, I just assumed that there would be SOME deferred component. Tony Jackson is now reporting that Ned Colletti said that the original offer included a deferred component, though no details.
One of the stories posted here did the math and said that the deferred compensation would make the deal with $42 Million in present value (not a big dro-off–not surprising given current low interest rates). and remember taht comparsion is to other dals which likely have some deferred component too. Boras wants not deferral, so they are $3 Million apart. I really don't think that the Dodgers making an offer that is $3 Million less than what Boras wants is a deal they knew they wouldn't get and not trying to sign the guy–it's just not a huge gulf between the sides. And considering that Manny has had no other offers, what should the team do?
Again, it's not clear what part of the November $45 Million offer included deferred compensation. I will assume that the new offer has the same or more deferred compensation as that one. If it is the same, then the Dodgers have made a better offer to Manny–one that allows him to opt out and test the market if things are better for him. If there is more deferrred compensation, then it seems to me that the Dodgers have made a very fair offer here–if you want the benefit of opting out, you have to give us some of the benefit of the time value of money. So the deal is no worse (of course, ifthe original November offer had more deferral than the current one, its even better). But making an offer that is at least as good or better than back in November, when there were serious thoughts of other bidders and the free agent market looked to be much more costly is pretty fair.
Fundamentally, Boras made a choice when he insisted to be freed of the club options. His decision was to take a chance on the Free Agent Market. If Many had sufered some sort of career-threatening injury, there would be basically no free agent market for him. But he was taking that risk, and that was his to take. But just as much as a free agent bears the risk of injury, when he gambles on the free agent market and it turns out that the market is bad because the economy is bad, he has to bear that risk too. Right now, the market for Manny is the Dodgers, and really no one else. I dont doubt that Manny could get $15 Million from several teams, or maybe even a 2 year deal for $35-$40 Million (again, I expect some of that would be deferred), but unless Boras shows otherwise, no one else is in the market for the amounts that the Dodgers are talking about, and when you are the top bidder (as the Dodgers are), there is every reason to expect to be able to sign the player.
I don't know if I agree with TruBlu that there will be a deal by 3 PM, but I do expect a deal to be made pretty soon. As I said, the sides are $3 million apart, and its all about structuring the deferred compensation (actually, I am sure that it's less than $3 Million, because Boras had got to know that some portion is going to be deferred). But I gve credit to the organization to sticking to its guns here.
Do the season ticket holders pay as they go, or do they pay their money up front?
McCourt is treating the Dodgers as a Real Estate business. Working off other peoples money.
I'm putting my trust in trublu44 and not going to get overexcited.
Lee the thing is the dodgers are lying. just stop lying.
"Boras called Dodgers GM Ned Colletti upon seeing Dodgers officials quoted as saying that the Dodgers had offered $45 million over two years with no mention of deferred money and told Colletti that Ramirez would accept the exact deal quoted in the media. Boras sent the Dodgers a letter of agreement signifying an acceptance of that presumed offer"
We were labeling continents in class this morning as part of a handwriting assignment. We were going over the names and where we live, and one student raises her hand and informs the class that in the spelling of North and South America, you can find the name Eric. Dodgereric is in their hearts and minds always I guess. I know I had something to do with starting the dodgereric phenomenon, but the students are the ones that are making it stick.
Awe: The power of Dodgereric at it's finest 🙂
Q: "When is $45 million, really $42 million?"
A: When it is deferred up to five years.
It may be common practice or a negotiating tactic, but it is a real difference. The truest comparison from Manny's perspective is after-tax NPV. This is Scott and Ned doing their jobs. lee is right about Manny's limited market, but Scott is trying to paint the best picture of his client. When the Dodgers were publicly giving the $45 million figure, they were playing the public, too.
If LA signs Manny, I would seriously like to see them trade some of their youth for Peavy. They have a boatload right now. I wouldn't trade any of their pitching. With Manny and Peavy they could go all the way.
What is LA's payroll….85 million?
What's the Yankees, Red Sox, Angels, Cubs, Phillies, and Mets?
Are they over a hundred million?
For the Yanks, try $185
I don't know if McCourt is a good negotiator, but he is not investing enough in this team. He is trying to run the Dodgers on the cheap.
My yard work has interupted todays game so here is my cheer….
Beat the M's !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Enjoy the game everybody….:-)
Morning all!
Well, normally I don't side with throwing millions at players because that means higher prices.
BUT…if McLiar thinks that the Dodgers' ticket and parking hikes are to support a sub $100 million payroll with Slappy Mc Noodlearm in left field, he's a bigger horse's **** than i thought.
I guess I can't say a_r_s_e.
mccourt is really playing with fire here. if his insistence of paying manny in deferred money prevents this organization from signing him (especially to a 1-year deal), he's going to have to answer to a livid fan base. it would be one thing if mccourt conceded the dodgers wouldn't be able to sign manny, but then signed dunn or abreu to play LF. going into the regular season with pierre and his .650 OPS in left field?…….OUCH. frank, come through for us.
Just a reminder – Manny Signing Sweepstakes
Feb. 25th at 11:59 am trublu44
Feb 26 between 10am and 4pm perumike
Feb 27, noon to 6 pm shepherd96
March 1, dcollins
March 2, 11 am news conference scott_in_arcadia
March 2nd – between noon and 6 pm nellyjune
March 5 noon to 6 PST seeskybout2rain
March 6th @ 4:30PM Pacific Standard Time dodgereric
March 13th between noon and 6 enchantedsunset
March 17th between noon and 6 PST cpompe1
March 23 @ 4:05 pm crash
Just give him the 3 yrs 75 millions I know that extra year is going to be tough because of his age.
At least Lincecum not money greedy but then again he doesn't have Boras and btw is it wrong to like one guy from the rival Giants. I feel kind of dirty to like one player on that team.
Would it just be wrong if Manny signed exactly at 6:01 pm and Shep get screwed.
I think Shepherd still wins for being under by the least amount – like in Price is Right!
1st Inning: Pierre bunts a pop fly….
Spring Training Update: Top 1: Eric Bedard Pitching:
Juan Pierre pops a bunt to first
Brad Ausmus hits an infield single
Russell Martin hits into a double play
0 runs 0 hits 0 LOB End of 1/2 inning No Score
Spring Training Update: Bottom 1: Chad Billingsley Pitching:
Ronny Cedeno put out
Jose Lopez grounds out to Loretta at third
Russell Branyan loops a single into left field
Adrian Beltre pops to Loney at first
0 runs 1 hit 1 LOB End of 1 No Score
I'm going to pop a blood vessel if Pierre is even bat boy for opening day.
Thanks Alex for the updates!!!
Russell, Russell, Russell….double play:(
Thanks Alex
Nice to see Billz on the mound – fully recovered from the broken leg.
LMAO!!!!! scott – I still have that list in my head of the top 10 things JP does before a game – still cracks me up – LOL!!!!
Who's in the outfield today?
Spring Training Update: Top 2: Eric Bedard Pitching:
James Loney lines out to center
Matt Kemp lines a single into left field
Mark Loretta 6-4-3 DP
0 runs 1 hit 0 LOB End of 1 1/2 No Score
Is Ethier playing?
LF – Pierre
CF – Kemp
RF – Paul
Hi Nelly,
I think if Manny signs, JP's Revised Top Ten is going to look something like this:
1. Show up early to the field.
2. Ask Ned to trade me.
3. Ask Ned to trade me.
4. Ask Ned to trade me.
5. Ask Ned to trade me.
6. Ask Ned to trade me.
7. Ask Ned to trade me.
8. Ask Ned to trade me.
9. Ask Ned to trade me.
10. Ask Ned to trade me.
LMAO!!! for sure, for sure Scott 🙂
No Ethier? – sigh 🙂
No Ethier today, my guess is that they're giving him a chance to get back to 100% after his recent "minor" injury.
I'm so happy to see alex again .
Thank you alex 🙂
These double plays are killin us today.
Spit, it's not bad to appreciate the talent that lincecum has as long as you hate his guts for playin with the gnats.
Stupid mariners announcers are talkin about how glad they are that they didnt sign Schmidt when they had the chance and how good of a decision that was….correct me if i'm wrong but has beltre done anything close for them like what he did for us in 04? yeah, shut up
Is that witch doctor Stan Conte still with the team? have you ever seen more injuries? Nomar gone will help a little I guess.
At least our man Ethier is safely planted in RF this year.
I 'd like to ask the Mariners if it's possible to be any worse even if they had Schmidt. Shoot, think of how he could have messed up the great run they're on.
Spring Training Update: Bottom 2: Chad Billingsley Pitching:
Bryan LaHair grounds to Loretta at third
Matt Tuiasosopo doubles down the left field line
Franklin Gutierrez doubles to the gap in left, Tuiasosopo scores, 1-0 Mariners
Prentice Redman flies to Kemp in center
Rob Johnson on the first pitch flies to center
1 run 2 hits 1 LOB End of 2 1-0 Mariners
I wonder how many innings Billz is gonna pitch today
It is nice to see Billz in the game 🙂
Spring Training Update: Top 3: Jason Vargas Pitching
Xavier Paul grounds to first
Tony Abreu grounds to short
Chin-lung Hu grounds to short
0 runs 0 hits 0 LOB End of 2 1/2 1-0 Mariners
Frank Mc Cheap. I wonder if we can defer paying for tickets. I want to buy tickets for a 3 game series in August. I am willing to pay $50 up front but would like to defer $50 for 2010 and $100 in 2011.
Estes isn't exactly convincing me at this point
Amen, scurtis!
Why aren't we deferring payments for our crappy players? Manny is already a hall of famer!
I'm not a big Casey Blake guy. I'd much rather see DeWitt at 3B. Casey Blake is an old .260-.270 hitter. Whoop-dee-doo!
3 years??? But Manny is only worth deferred payments?
scurtis ~ here in California, they send out IOU's. That would work to pay for tickets. lol
Well, in shepherd's case it's a UOMe – LOL!!!!
Spring Training Update: Bottom 3: Shawn Estes Pitching:
Cedeno singles
Lopez reaches on a fielding error by Tony Abreu, Cedeno to second (would've been an easy 6-4-3 DP)
Branyan flies to Paul in right (inning should be over, but it is not)
Beltre on a full count doubles to the gap scoring Cedeno and Lopez, 3-0 Mariners
LaHair doubles to the gap, Beltre scores, 4-0 Mariners
Tuiasosopo grounds to Abreu at short
Gutierrez flies to Kemp in deep center
3 runs 3 hits 1 LOB End of 3 4-0 Mariners
Along with the Dodger Dogs, at the stadium, they should sell McCheap Burgers.
and, Noodle Arm Bowls!
lol trublu
Scott, Andruw Jones is worth deferred payments, not Man Ram. I totally agree with Boras and Manny on this one.
Seems like the Gnats might go longer then a 2 year deal now.
scurtis ~ the Gnats won't give him the big bucks, though. I was listening to their talk radio and, they assume Manny is going to sign with us. So, unless, Frank really blows it, there is no way he's going to be a Gnat.
Spring Training Update: Top 4: Vargas Pitching:
Juan Pierre strikes out swinging
Brad Ausmus walks on four pitches, Ausmus to second on wild pitch
Russell Martin strikes out swinging
James Loney flies to right
0 runs 0 hits 1 LOB End of 3 1/2 4-0 Mariners
I agree scurtis.
If the Giants end up with Manny, McCourt is stupider than I think or actually, as stupid as I think.
What a lead off man! Show 'em how it's done JP! Man he's fast!
How fast can you run back to the dugout, JP?
2 errors for abreu, what the F
scott ~ if Frank blows it with Manny and the Gnats end up with him, the fans will be irate!!!
This is ridiculous, fielding drills all day tommorrow for us, it's not a good sign when you have more errors than hits
LMAO, blue!!!
I don't see Abreu making the club anyway. He blew his chance several times before.
I dont think we should pencil in Estes for that 5th spot
Frank will not be seating in his seats at the Ravine if Manuel Ramirez is not in LF. He would need a ton of security.
Now batting… number 9 ….left fielder …Juan Pierre X 600= Me goin Postal
I know JP is owed a lot of money but, wouldn't it be fitting if he was the one cut from the team.
Spring Training Update: Bottom 4: Shawn Estes Pitching:
Redman reaches on an infield single to Abreu at short
Johnson singles to right, Redman to second
Cedeno reaches on a fielder's choice on a sacrfice bunt, Loney's throw was a little high and Loretta couldn't see it, Redman scores on the Loretta error, Johnson to third, Cedeno to second, 5-0 Mariners
Lopez flies to shallow right
Branyan triples to right center scoring Johnson and Cedeno, 7-0 Mariners
Tanyon Sturtze relieves Shawn Estes
Beltre singles to right, Branyan scores, 8-0 Mariners
LaHair strikes out swinging
Tuiasosopo strikes out swinging
4 runs 4 hits 1 LOB End of 4 8-0 Mariners
Scratch Estes. Scratch Stults. That leaves Schmidt (huh?), Huggy Bear, and McDonald fighting for the #5 spot.
I'd rather take my chance with Paul over there if he can get the job down in ST.
LMAO!!!! jungar and scott – too funny!!!!!
At least Kemp is getting some hits GO DODGERS!!
Actually Ethier would me move to LF where Paul can played RF.
oops should had read can get the job done in ST.
The Dodgers are real good at making relievers out of all of the best young pitchers on the team while the 5th starter spot has mostly been a shambles under Colletti. They're still spinning Billz being shafted to reliever in favor of jokes like Tomko. Spin, spin, spin. Put McDonald in there retards!
me=be and damn too many spelling errors.
spit, I'd rather have anyone named Paul first or last name in LF instead of the last doh-doh.
This whole Manny situation has gotten kind of out of control….here's hoping he'll sign a contract SOMEWHERE in the next few days…
The Phillies just cut Eaton and they owe him $9M…..so, why not JP?
The Angels pretty much put Gary Matthews and his over priced butt in his place and now he just smiles and sits on the bench. At least he can play OF though.
Colleti still owe him 28.5 millions for the next 3 years.
I know JP is owed a lot of money but, to me, he is useless. If he wasn't, he would have been traded by now and, probably not for much.
Juan Pierre leading off – 3 runs
No Juan Pierre at all – 16 runs
Juan Pierre leading off – 0 runs
Theory – Boras is paying Pierre to tank to drive Manny's price up.
I sense some Pierre songs a comin'…
…suck up the money and either bench him or let him go 🙂
Wow nice 1 enchanted I was thinking about that one lol.
E, it worked last year!
Prediction, we sign Manny on the flight to arizona, he makes it in time to put on his uniform for the 9th inning and hits 3 grand slams, we win 12-11
Flaw in the theory bluesplash – that would require Pierre actually being able to get on base.
Bluesplash that sound good to me. Manny can save the game!
….I am surprised you haven't already entered a song for today. Knowing you, you already have one done or one is in the works enchantedsunset 🙂
Adjustment, Colletti tells Pierre if he gets on base for the rest of this game he'll start in center everyday…Pierre believes him
There may be at that Nells 🙂
Well I'm off again both physically and mentally. Have fun kids and don't do anything I wouldn't do.
That's the problem enchanted ….some of us are too much like you, or becoming like you, whichever the case may be 🙂
"And in my heart I know you're there…
And in my heart I know you care…
And in my heart I know you're gone"
– The Smashing Pumpkins, "The Aeroplane Flies High (Turns Left, Looks Right)"
Newly updated blog post @ http://northstateblues.mlblogs.com .
NSBlues long time no hear from you! Love the Smashing Pumpkins…
A poor attempt at "If I Were A Carpenter" by Johnny Cash
If I were a left fielder
And you were Joe Torre,
Would you play me every day?
Would you still want Manny?
If I asked for a trade
would you still play me?
Because I try real hard,
And show up early.
I'm good at stolen bases,
But I can't steal first,
If you've ever seen me throw,
You'll say I'm the worst.
If I never get on base,
Would you still play me?
Answer me Joe, "Yes I would,
Then I'll know you love me."
If I were ever traded
would you be happy,
would you miss my noodle arm,
and your best friend Slappy?
If I were a left fielder
and you were Joe Torre,
Would you play me every day?
Would you still want Manny?
Would you play me every day?
Would you still want Manny?
Hey Rose, how are you? Yeah, Pumpkins are great… wish James was still with 'em, but Billy still knows how to bring it.
"Manny, Manny, can't you see, sometimes your agent irritates me…"
Well done scott!!
Scott – Great parody, but it makes me want to heave. Probably the intended result.
I won't be truly inspired until I actually see him pop bunt out on tv a few times.
King of Cali @ http://kingofcali.mlblogs.com had this youtube video up about the Manny situation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wc1YM_FZw1U&eurl=http://kingofcali.mlblogs.com/archives/2009/02/mannywood_movie.html
Everything about it is perfect, I think.
3:00 Pacific, 6:00 EST
I'm not sure if McCourt is trying to pull a Ponzi on the season ticket holders or what. The first half of last season was a complete letdown and I can't stand the thought of going through that again (last 2 months of '07, first 4 months of '08, and now '09 with a big ? mark). I kind of think McCourt made his money on the season ticket holders and just wanted to act Hollywood now. He tried to sign Manny….Liar.
Well I am off. Everyone have a great weekend. I will be checking in and keeping up with the "MANNYWOOD" situation. Hopefully next time I log in…Manny is a Dodgers.
NS- that was a great video clip on "MANNYWOOD – Show me the Money". It was just missing "Manny's HAIR". You gotta have the hair.
SCOTT – great song!
Rose Ethieraholic & Martinista
Bye Rose!
Something interesting from the lastest MLB article:
Mc Cheap/Mc Liar:
"So now, we start from scratch."
Asked on Friday what starting from scratch meant, Colletti said: "You'll have to ask McCourt
Think we have to face facts – Frank doesn't have $25M in pocket to be able to pay Manny this year or he'd have done it.
Thanks for posting the Onion article. That was hilarious.
Regarding Manny, I personally think the Dodgers are being cheap. The Dodgers signed Rafael Furcal and Casey Blake for 3 years each. I don't see why they can't do the same for one of the best hitters in the game.
Yes, I understand that no other team has made an offer for Manny but at some point a team will step up and give Manny a good, solid 2 or 3-year deal that will be better than what the Dodgers have offered. The market is slow this year but not dead. Sooner or later, a power hitter is going to go down with an injury and a team will emerge that is willing to dish out the money and the years for Manny. It may not be the 4 or 5 years at 25 million that Boras wants, but will be enough to get a deal done.
The Dodgers need to realize that if they want arguably the best hitter in the game, then they need to pay him like he's the best hitter in the game. Pure and simple. Maybe Manny is selfish, but so are a lot of players. If the Dodgers want him, they need to pay him. And if they can't or don't want to afford him, then they need to stop wasting everybody's time.
But if the Dodgers really, truly can't afford him, then we're in a lot of trouble.
NSB, that must have been some video because it is no longer available.
So Dodgers signed some other guy, but not Manny….shsssh…this is a long wait.
Quick note: I guess there was a truck stolen (Classic Truck) in Riverside (about 10 min. from were I live) that was registered to Troy Percival (ex-Angels, now with the Rays), hopefully the find it.
Oh yeah! Dodgers Sign Mientkiewicz
Park, I don't think the Dodgers are "being cheap" at all with Manny although I agree that it does seem as if the Dodgers are working as if they were a small market team. But just because they are willing to give other players three year deals has nothing to do with Manny. While Manny may be the best hitter in the game he does come with a lot of baggage. You say another team will come up with a better deal; so far that has not happened. And I believe the Dodgers can afford him but they don't want to pay more than they have to in order to get him.
The bad part is negotiating in the media but this is an old trick and is just part of the process. I am sure when Manny does sign, and I believe he will, all will be forgiven and it will be a dreadlock love fest.
To avoid Pierre in LF there is an option to put Blake there and give Dewitt the job at 3rd again so something need to happen soon.
I agree the Dodgers are not cheap if he really care he would had signed by now.
hey spit,
Who wouldn't like that lineup, but Torre already said Pierre is his LF if Manny don't sign.
Well isn't this wonderful. When do the season ticket holders have to pay for their tickets?
The only reason McCourt wants to invest in the kids, is they're inexpensive ….. Cheap
I am in a partnership with a group of people and we have to get our money to the season ticketholder who owns the seats by the first week in January. But I am sure this is normal; I pay for my UCLA season football tickets in June.
I was praying Miller and Orenduff would had both pitch great. Anyone took a peak of that site I just posted and I surely is not truth.
andruw jones was 1-4 with 3 k's for texas today for what that's worth…
The thing of it is, Manny has all the time on his side. He can show up at the All Star Game. McCourt is going to look like a fool if Manny signs somewhere else.
So far this spring he's 1-7 with 6 k's.
Scott – at least he is getting the K's in Texas this season. And to think the real pitching really hasn't started yet 🙂
DRUW is awesome.
Another Drew is hurting in Boston. Typical.
Boras wanted a 2 year $55 million? We should just trade for a power hitter. These negotiations are getting to be annoying and is causing me to lose interest in this organization. Boras is good at what he does, but a creep. I hope I see him at the Stadium one game.
Poor Andruw is picking up where he left off the last time we saw him wearing a Dodger uniform.
Sorry, I am just now catching up. We lost 18-2? Something went wrong today for sure – LOL!! Thank goodness it's only Spring Training and Friday because I just busted up my custodian this morning for the gnat loss yesterday, and I would've caught crap for this one.
This whole Manny thing is giving me a headache. I have a real problem with McCourt trying to prove to the fans that they are doing everything they can to sign Manny, but not giving the whole picture while trying to do so. I do not believe there are many of us that would like our payment for work defered. I know Frank wouldn't want any of his money defered (no payment plan options for season tickets/it's all or nothing), so why would he expect Manny to accept that? I know I'm in the minority when I say that Manny does not make or break the season, but if the Dodgers want him, go get him. If not, stop the PR show and just move on already.
Okay, I thought I was done with this whole Manny business. But I just read this article on the Dodgers' homepage: http://losangeles.dodgers.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090227&content_id=3892614&vkey=news_la&fext=.jsp&c_id=la. Inside, the article says, "Boras' proposal is for two years at $45 million with all the money paid over the course of two years. The Dodgers' last proposal, rejected by Ramirez on Thursday, was for the same length and dollar figure, but deferred without interest over five years."
My first question is if the last contract the Dodgers offered was going to be "deferred without interest over five years," then I say, why? If this is true, then I see why Manny rejected this offer. Unless I'm reading this wrong (which could be entirely correct), why not just pay the 2-year contract in 2 years? Why the deferral? And if deferral $ is normal, accepted and commonplace, then why defer for 5 years?
I realize this is a lot of $, but at the same time, if Frank is saying that he WANTS Manny back, then can't he (or Ned or whoever is pulling the purse strings here) say, defer for 2 or 3 years, or something a little more palatable to Manny? That way, Manny will probably be more willing to sign, the Dodger fans will be happy that Manny is back, and if the Dodgers propose something like this (and Manny subsequently signs), then Frank/Ned would've saved face with the fans.
Actually, I'll take 25 million deferred over the next 25 years, but McCheap is still a cheap skate liar.
I know this was a short visit, but everyone else can debate the Manny debate and the status of the latest contract that was offered to him. I'll read up later!!!
Oh, sorry, but I forgot to say before: Good afternoon ITD boys and girls!!! I'll see y'all later…
Scott – I see your point about the amount of money, but I'm not letting anyone tell me that over half of the money I make this year is going to be defered for the next 5 years. That is the stance of Manny's camp, and for once, I agree with his side.
LOL!!! CP – I am so tired of this Manny saga it's ridiculous. For me, at this point, I really just don't want JP in LF, and I guess Manny is the only option that will make that happen at this point. So, how are you doing?
Well, that was quick – bye CP, see ya later!!
I agree with you "cy". I was just being funny.
Scott you inspired me. Beatles – Nowhere Man
He's a real leveraged man,
Ergo there is no Man Ram
Looks like Slappy's a-gan
Our left fielder
Doesn't have a friggin' clue
Know's who's next he wants to screw
Looks like this time its you and me.
Leveraged Man, please listen,
It's the fans that you're pissin'
Leveraged Man, you're lack of funds has got outta hand
(lead guitar)
He's as dumb as he can be
Don't care who we want to see
Leveraged Man, all can't play for free @$%!! &^%#!
Leveraged Man, do worry
Your bottom line's now blurry
Sell out now so someone else can take your command
Side-by-sides in Malibu
Has a wife who is a shrew
Overpriced spring training too %#^@%!! $@%!
Leveraged Man, please listen
Wisht my fist you're kissin'
Leveraged Man, please sell the sta-di-am (and team)
He's a real leveraged man,
Ruining our Dodgerland
Making all his shady plans for more money
Making all his shady plans for more money
Making all his shady plans for more money
©NedCo Broken Records 2009
NedCo – Boldly going where everyone has gone before. ™
Checking in a lot today, because I think the deal will get done sometime soon, though it does not look like today, but maybe over the weekend.
And while I hate to harp on the point, I think we really need to understand exactly how common deferred compensation is, how often it is overlooked in the public perception of making a deal, and its PR affects.
First off, obviously, deferred compensation reduces the present value of the contract, and according to reports (I have not done the math), the Dodgers offer is worth $42 Million. If the Dodgers offered Manny $22 Million this year and $20 Million next year with a player option. That's still about the best deal Manny is likely to get. Boras is quibbling over the $3 Million as much as the Dodgers, and the Dodgers have a lot to gain in demonstrating that they are going to hold a certain line. If Boras has another offer, he can tell the team what the bid is. He doesn't. He's bluffing with a 10-high.
Jungar says that the Dogers are lying. I won't argue the point one way or another. But they are lying no more than every team and every agent, particularly Boras. Jungar quotes a report that "Boras called Dodgers GM Ned Colletti upon seeing Dodgers officials quoted as saying that the Dodgers had offered $45 million over two years with no mention of deferred money and told Colletti that Ramirez would accept the exact deal quoted in the media. . . ." But of course, Boras knows that this is nonsense, and he is trying to pull a stunt.
You can see a bunch of contracts at http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/, but the best illustration is the last big deal that Boras did with the Dodgers. Before last season, we signed Andruw Jones for $36.2 million for 2 years. The $0.2 Million was specifically so that Jones would make more than Torii Hunter, who had signed a 5 year deal worth $18 Million a year. But take a look at Hunter's deal–it's a $2.5 Million signing bonus, with annual salaries of $16 Million, $17.5 Million, and then three years of $18 Million salaries. http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005/01/los-angeles-angels-of-anaheim.html. The net of that is that Hunter got just slightly more than $18 Million per year in present value (basically, a $500,000 one-year advance–worth about $25,000). What did Jones get? $36.2 Million over two years, presumably $18.1 Million per year. But take a look at the actual details of his contract (before it was re-worked over the off-season). A $12.2M signing bonus (paid out at $5.1M in 2008, $2.1M in 2009, $5M in 2010), and a salary of $9M in 2008 and $15M in 2009. In other words, he would have recieved $14.1 Million in 2008, $17.1 Million in 2009, and $5 Million in 2010–compensation deferred until after he was no longer even under contract with the team. So Boras and the Dodgers both knew that Jones was not recieving the present value equivalent of $18.1 Million per year. But they all siad so anyway. Take a look at A-Rod's contract, that supposedly had a $10 Million. But that was deferred to be paid out until 2014.
Unless the concept of deferred compensation was simply sprung on him AFTER he had read the media reports that the Dodgers had made a $45 Million offer, then he's lying about what he thought the offer was–and considering that the Dodgers put the offer in writing, and had made 3 previous offers, I doubt this was new to Boras. Particularly since Boras knows as well as anyone how common deferred compensation is. And there is no reason to disbelieve Colletti when he said that deferred compensation was part of all the offers.
There's a value to the players, owners, and the union to counting deferred compensation toward actual compensation. The Union was fine witht he Dodgers and Jones restructuring the deal so that he could be released, but they wouldn't let them negotiate a reduced salary. And even though the deferred payment reduced the actual economic value of the deal for Jones, it was OK for the union. This matters for, amongst other things, setting arbitration values. Let's say that Matt Kemp has a couple of really big years (40-40, 100+RBI, .310 Batting average–not at all impossible, though optimistic, I admit). He goes to arbitration and asks for $22.5 Million because that was the average of Manny's contract. If, however, Manny and the Dodgers sign a 2 year deal for $42 Million, then the average is only $21 Million, and Kemp could lose $1.5 Million for that. There are a bunch of other ways in which this deferred compensation issue matters for players, I imagine (Andruw Jones's contract alone shows that ego matters as much, or more, than actual economic value).
This is not to say that the offer that the Dodgers made is not less valuable than the one Boras wants–it is, no question. But Boras knew that, and if he is claiming that he is operating within the same parameters of a $45 Million two year deal, he understands exactly what is at play.
I don't have a problem with Boras trying to negotiate the bet deal he can, and clearly a two year deal with compensation all in cash and no deferrment is better than a deal with deferred compensation. But if Ned and McCourt met with Boras and his stooge at the Stadium and they agreed on parameters for a 2-year deal, it is inconceivable to me that it was not clear that deferred compensation was to be part of the package. I don't know if Boras knew the details or not, and maybe he just wants less deferral, but playin as if there was never a deferred comp component is simply not credible. My guess is that, given Boras's history, they spelled out the exact deal points, including the deferred comp, Boras said it was provisionally OK but he "of course" needed to check with his client, and then came back trying to renegotiate after the Dodgers looked like they were committed to a deal. It's plain old dirty pool by a guy who is famous for it.
Given the history of deferred comp, I just don't think you can blame the Dodgers for calling a two year contract that pays $45 Million for two years of service, but with deferred comp adusted to present value is worth only $42 Million a $45 Million deal as it is just common parlance in the league.
I knew you had it in you today for something – It's that JP love creeping in. Well, in this case, Franky love – LOL!!!! As always GREAT JOB enchanted!!!!
Wow leekfink!!!! We don't hear from you in about 3 months, but three times in one day. You certainly are making up for lost time, aren't you? I really appreciate you explaining this stuff because it's all foreign to me as I feel I am still back in the 101 courses when it comes to big finance things. I do first grade math most days – LOL!!! Thanks!!!!
No offense to everyone else who posts regularily here but whether you agree with him or not leefink is still one of best writers who grace these pages.
I will certainly second that lbirken 🙂
Highly informative and a pleasure to read 🙂
Boy, I leave to run some errands and everyone goes wild! Great songs….fantastic posts and, still no signing Manny party.
Can you confirm what Tony Jackson's source said? If so, why don't you guys quit playing background source, and just write it under your own names? If not, what are you going to do about people in your front office free lancing?
That's weird. The link worked in the preview box. Anyway, here it is, in case what I'm talking about is obscure: http://www.insidesocal.com/dodgers/2009/02/source-boras-as.html
It is not unusual for reporters to protect their sources; otherwise they would never get any stories. Since the two sides can't seem to work things out in private they have taken to negotiating in public in an attempt to point the blame for failure on the other side. Look at the beating Manny took until the concept of deferred money was made public. I once said this was like playing chicken but now it looks more like a boxing match with words instead of punches. Just get it done one way or the other as both sides are starting to look foolish and petty.
Both sides are foolish and petty. It's still about the $$
I'll keep repeating:
F Manny,
Double F Ned and Frank, but
Triple F Joe for the ludicrous assertion that JP will play LF if Manny isn't signed. Just be sensible and let the best choice emerge during Spring Training. There are a couple of young guys that seem capable and could pleasantly surprise, but will that mean anything to Torre? He's been the worst choice for this club, but then he's our trophy manager, so what to expect.
This whole Manny fiasco has been ridiculous – all spin and no action. I just want to see our guys play ball and forget the sideline theatrics.
I don't care if Jackson protects his source. I don't care if they want to fight it out in the press. I do care about fighting in a way that each party is responsible for the stories it tells to the press. Boras talked to Dylan Hernandez on the record. If the Dodgers want to respond, let them do it on the record.
Give me $25M to invest into the current stock market and in 5 years I guarantee I'll have more than $3M in additional income. Do I want my money now? – you bet!!
I'm hedging against a full blown depression, I'm leveraged to the hilt and I could make a profit in the current stock market investing money that I'm not obliged to spend now. Do I want a zero interest deferred payment? – you bet!!
Do I want to see someone in left field other than JP? – YOU BET!!!
And the "2009 Nomar Garciaparra Man of Glass Award" goes to:
Enchanted ~ YOU BET!!!!! ME TOO!!!!!
Obi ~ Damn, it was Abreu, I was hoping it was JP!
Speaking of JP…….
Juan Pierre's at Bat (No Can Do) (Sung to Hall & Oates "I Can't Go For That")
Contract negotiations running overtime
When does it stop, where do you dare us to draw the line
Manny's got the bat, now he wants our soul
But we don't have to think about it, just say "Go, Go"
We'd pay anything that you'd want us to
We'd pay almost anything you'd want us to
Because Juan Pierre's at bat, noooo
(No can do)
And we're too old for that, nooooo
(No can do)
We're too old for that, noooo
(No can do)
We're too old for that, can't go for that, can't go for that, yeah
We can't go for being twice as nice
When Juan repeats the same box score lines
Manny's got the bat, now he wants our soul
Ooh, forget about it, just say "Go-Go"
We'd pay anything that you'd want us to
We'd pay almost anything you'd want us to
(Repeat Chorus)
(Sax solo)
We'd pay anything that you'd want us to
We'd pay almost anything you'd want us to
(Repeat Chorus)
Bokonon, I am on your side. I roll my eyes at the anonymous source references or references to a source who is "not authorized to speak on the matter". The reporter gets this stuff from someone and often is used to deliver the message. Blame the reporter as well for being a willing party to the process.
seesky ~ Fantastic!!!
Boy, if what Tony Jackson is reporting, then I take back anything nice I ever said about Scott Boras–like I am sure at some point I may have said that "he may not be the most despicable person in history."
I still suspect that a deal will get done. Maybe the speculation here that Manny just does not want a long Spring Training is right, and it will drag out until mid-March. But it still does not seem that Manny has any other suitors, and if they don't want to compete with the Dodgers offer of 2 years at $45 Million, what chance is there that they will go for 2 years at $55 Million.
After this season, BorASS will have a hard time getting any of his clients signed. Our front office as well as other owners & GMs have said they will no longer do business with him.
At least we are in the NL west:
Sea 18 LAD 2
LAA 5 Col 3
Shep ~ Yeah, but 18 runs!!!!!!!!!!!
Allright Sky!!!
Look, if Manny did not want to report to ST for another week or so, he could put that into the negotiations. From my point of view he should be there as soon as possible if he does sign. This is supposed to be a team game. Anyway, have a good evening.
By the way, I'm into overtime. 😦
Tru – We win right?
Thanks, tru & e….. but what I'd really like to know is: What is a Valentino Pascucci? Is it A) an early opera by Puccini, B) A Wednesday night special at Olive Garden, C) another lawn statue on the McCourt Estates, or D) all of the above?
(E) Venereal disease
Oh crap, I'm sorry. That's Herpierres.
LMAO, e!!!!!!!!!!
I'll take a stab at (C)
Go to the head of the class, tru!!!!!
Pascucci comes to the D's with a lifetime .177 BA in his partial 2004 season with the now-defunct Montreal Expos. A strong recommend, I must say!!!
For you Nells… Juan Pierre 2 games, 0 for 6. Little Richard – Good Golly Miss Molly:
(little different version at the end than printed lyrics I found, but you'll get the gist)
Good Golly it's Juanpy
Can't hit the ball (whooooo)
Good Golly it's Juanpy
Can't throw at all
When you're pissin' and a moanin'
That's when you're Mama call
Get there in the early early mornin' thru the middle of the night
Get yourself a-caught a-stealing cuz you always got green lights
Good Golly its Juanpy
Can't bunt at all
But when you're pissin' and a moanin'
That's when you're Mama call
Mama tol' ol' Neddy, Joe better play him Juan
If you can't re-sign-a Manny, then put the speedster on
Good Golly it's Juanpy
Dribblers and all
When you're poppin' and a slappin', make the offense a-stall
[Piano & Sax]
When you saw ol' Neddy you showed you had a ring
Then he told you forty million, what a ding-a-ling-a-ling
Good Golly its Juanpy
One hit is all
When you string a few together, can't even reach the wall.
©NedCo Broken Records 2009.
Enchanted ~ I think Nells will print and frame that song!!!
Greedy player…greedier agent…cheap owner…dull GM…bad mix…at least the moon and Venus are getting along…check out the beautiful western sky before they both set.
….. and the house is filled with the sound of music. Great job, E!!!!!
Excellent discussion…I am just going to sit back and read because I can't the points down into words nearly as well as some of you.
Stop the presses!!! Tony Abreu is hurt again…in the groin area…again. I know it's old news by now but the night is kind of slow. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Oh, come on, Cy………you do a very good job! Sometimes there just isn't anything to add.
Manny : Apple
Dodgers : Eve
Don't Bite!!!!!!!!!
The serpent? Too easy.
Fortunately I don't think anyone was counting on Abreu to contribute anything this year. Still odd for someone his age to have chronic groinitis.
Does anybody find it odd that spring training opened and they're STILL working on McRanch? Contractors not getting paid or something? I mean its not like they hadn't had enough time before players reported.
Does anyone here think that if they moved Blake to left and let DeWitt play third that this team wouldn't be stronger than having JP in there?
If a bear Schmidts in the woods, will Ned sign it?
Enchanted ~ I think anyone but JP playing left would make the team stronger. And, yes, Ned does like signing Schmidts! The more the merrier!!!
At this point, I don't see it so much as a question of greed as it is ego and the besting of another in a business deal. After all, this is a negotiation comprised of wealthy and wealthier individuals. The wealth and composition of the contract is the manner in which they keep score. The season is growing closer, the need to consummate a deal grows more critical, the principals are feeling the heat, and the failure to close a deal has led to posturing and spin. McCourt may be cheap, Borass and Manny may be greedy but, at some point, each side is going to have to put personalities aside, recognize the other's goals and priorities, and reach a deal they can both live with.
No question, E. I don't know how good an outfielder Blake would be but he couldn't possibly be any worse than JP.
Good Evening ITD readers and writers!!!!!
INCREDIBLE ENCHANTED!!!!! LOL!!! Nells thanks you very much. There is definitely a reason why you are called the master song writer. A BIG ROUND OF APPLAUSE!!!!
Wow Seesky!!! – you too? The good thing about Dodger drama is it always brings out the best in songwriting. Fantastic job seesky!!!
I totally agree with you, Seesky. All of us are becoming very agitated and, we want our team set as soon as possible. I know they are testing some of the guys to see if they'll make the team, but, we need to know our starting lineup.
Nellyjune ~ glad you finally got home!
So let me get this straight (been gone most of the day)
-The Dodgers made their offer of 2 years and 45 million to be paid out over 5 years (or less than what we will pay Juan Pierre for 5 years)
-Boras and Manny rejected that offer and said we will accept an offer of 2 years 45 million with no deferement and we will wait on what the dodgers say…
-The dodgers offically have said nothing.
-Unoffically they say no thats not true, Boras/Manny want 55 million and thats why there is no deal..
Jungar ~ You've got it right!!
jungar is about to go Juan Pierre on us again, isn't he? LOL!!!!
I'd even take that new old guy over JP. What's his name – Doug Monkeywiskers?
Oh man my gut says were lying. That we want to make it seem like we are trying to sign the guy but in fact really don't want to..I'll uses Lees post as the reason. I don't know if he is right or wrong, he of course makes a great case, but say he is right…Deferred payments are normal…
1. So then, why would Boras make a big deal of it and make that the reason to reject it.
2. Boras might be alot of things, but would he really go all over the press and say "we agree to 45 million" (yet not really agree with 45 million and ask for 55 million)?
3. Why after 4 months of this is the owner saying, ah f-it were back to scratch?
4. Why would Ned come out and say we have no idea what the peramiters are of an acceptable deal when boras just went public to say 45 million non defered is acceptable
5. all of a sudden its 55 million, un confirmed from either side…suck it frank.
"if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic"
– Lewis Carroll
What do you think the players think about the Manny situation? They know Frankenweenie from their own dealings to form an opinion on them. Do you think the young guns would band together even tighter to show the rest of the league and Manny they can win without him? or are they so convinced that they need him in the line-up that they'll regress?
Thanks, nelly. I read Jungar's line about being "too old for that" and your post about there being a song there and it just clicked.
I don't know if they need Manny………I just think they like having him around. They learned a lot about hitting from him and it seemed that they were more relaxed when Manny was there.
thanks trublu – glad to be home and connected finally 🙂
Also, I don't trust Joe to use the right players.
And, Jungar, not much of what Frank & Ned did in the off-season made much sense.
It's always good to have connections! LOL
$45 million deferred or not is a potfull of money anytime, let alone in this economy. The guy just got done making $160M and pissed on another $40M. Isn't this really the first sign of Manny being Manny in L.A. (or Boras being Manny?)
I don't really care one way or the other anymore. I just don't want JP in the line-up everyday. I think you put anyone else in there and you still have a legitimate chance of winning the division (though I don't think they'd pull it off.) That may be better for them in the long run. Then they know they can do it on their own.
enchanted – I am hoping they are ready to prove everybody wrong. That they can do this without Manny. I think we can with hitting, but I am not so sure with pitching. And then there is ths issue of leftfield, which can't be ignored. I am sorry,but it is a problem if they can't see DY or Repko deserve a shot at some regular play over JP. Either that, or they need to move Blake to left field and DeWitt to 3rd. For goodness sakes, even Hu hit a homerun the other day. We need some power out there, yes?….and JP isn't it:)
It's not that I wont be a fan of the team if Manny isn't in blue, but it's hard being a fan of a team that would go into the year with the offensive team we would have without him. Kemp, Loney, Martin and Ethier would each have to go 30, 100 for us to compete.
The division is even weaker than it was last year, but your right, MLKE would have to come into their own to really compete.
We'll have to see what the reality is this year with the pitching staff, put paper from reality last year was night and day also. I for some reason have some faith in the starters holding their own. BPs a little iffier.
Granted, Manny would make us better but, if JoJo could be trusted to consider somebody other than JP for the 3rd outfield spot, I wouldn't see signing Manny to be as critical. JoJo seems to see it as "either-or"
And when Joe speaks, he's Eeyore.
LMAO!!!! …….he does kind of talk like Eeyore if you think about it…….very slow without a whole lot of enthusiasm – LMAO!!!!!!!
LMAO!!!Yeah, he does bray a lot…..when he's awake.
THAT'S our Joe!!
LMAO!!!!!! ……I think we have a new name for Joe now 🙂
"He [Eeyore] is generally characterized as a pessimistic, gloomy, depressed, old grey stuffed donkey who is a friend of the title character…"
Sound familiar?
No really, I think its wonderful what they're doing with old people like Joe nowadays. They've taught him a stock speech and if he can remember who he's referring to he can even plug their names in:
"[insert desired name]'s a veteran. Everything slows down for [insert desired name] up there. [insert desired name] knows what he's trying to do out there every at bat. [insert desired name] has a plan. [insert desired name] is a gamer. You can't say enough about [insert desired name]."
That about cover it?
….yes it does 🙂
Does that make Ned Winnie The Pooh because he's stuffed with fluff and of very little brain?
Is this thing on???
New Thread……. if anybody cares????
Winnie The Pooh
Winnie The Pooh
Chubby ex-Cubbie all stuffed with fluff
He's Winnie The Pooh
Winnie The Pooh
Willy nilly silly GM
I think that, if Furcal stays healthy and approaches his numbers of 2 years ago and Hudson has an injury-free, average year, MKLE could average 20-25 hrs and we would be fine without Manny. For good measure, we've also got Blake's power. I don't think we'll ever get 30 dingers a year out of Russell or James and that's just fine. We saw what happened with Russell last year when he muscled up and tried to hit for power. Russell's at his best when he's using the whole field and reaching the gaps with extra base hits. Loney's, pretty much, the same type of hitter. I, also, have the feeling that the starters will be ok. Bills should be better; Kuroda's had a year to adjust to American culture and MLB and he should also be better. Wolf will be Wolf, and that should be solid. The keys in our rotation will be how much improvement we get out of Kershaw and the production we get (or don't get) out of the 5th spot. The bullpen, I agree, is iffy. The jury's still out on Broxton as a closer and, except for Kuo and Wade, we don't know for sure what we have. A plus: unlike last year, we have experienced depth in the infield if someone goes down.