text:
OfB Open Choice Awards 2002: KDE 3.0 Best Desktop
Open for Business has held its first annual
The KDE mail client KMail won in the category
By ac at Wed, 2002/07/31 - 5:00am
Re: Nice awards...
Anon Man:
1) Face up to the facts. GNOME 2 was unstable. So what that you installed it and got it running well, if lots of other people found it to be broken. Your machine is not the only one. The hard data is the people you see complaining... and there are quite a few. Read mailing lists, read articles like this one. Or you can stick your head in the sand and not hear any of it :-)
2) The GNOME 2 release was rushed by a long way... hardly any apps ported. Imagine if KDE 3 was released with just konqueror. LOL! Naturally the reason for the hurry has to be 'corporate pressures'.
3) GNOME has a history of hyping up its future technologies and failing to deliver. Witness Bonobo... even miguel says it is crap now. Just because something is 'in the works' doesn't mean it will be any good. And lets face it, with the problems in porting to GNOME 2, don't get your hopes up.
4) Why the hell are you even here hawking your GNOME shit? Sorry, but I suspect it is because of *sour grapes*. You can't believe than GNOME was passed up for enlightenment :-) Well, believe it!
I think you should try KDE cvs... you'll find it very illuminating ;-)
By ac at Tue, 2002/07/30 - 5:00am
Re: Nice awards...
Very well both of you. We could stay up here all night, and accomplish not a single thing.
I look forward to meeting you both again...
By Anon Man at Tue, 2002/07/30 - 5:00am
Konqueror [Re: Nice awards...]
Re: " 2) The GNOME 2 release was rushed by a long way... hardly any apps ported. Imagine if KDE 3 was released with just konqueror. LOL! Naturally the reason for the hurry has to be 'corporate pressures'."
I think that *just* new version of Konqueror worth new *release*.
Problem with GNOME (GNOME2) that they *do not have own browser technology*.
So, if GNOME2 *had* own browser - I think it worth separate reelase..
By Vadim Plessky at Tue, 2002/07/30 - 5:00am
Re: Konqueror [Re: Nice awards...]
Hmm...I think the point is reusability
Why reinvent the wheel when there's a perfect one there?
By Bah me at Tue, 2002/07/30 - 5:00am
Re: Konqueror [Re: Nice awards...]
>Why reinvent the wheel when there's a perfect one there?
The point is, Mozilla is no where near perfect.
By ac at Tue, 2002/07/30 - 5:00am
Re: Konqueror [Re: Nice awards...]
Besides of RAM usage (which is not good but not a big issue either) Mozilla is probably as close to perfect as free software can currently deliver. I'm talking about featureset.
By Spark at Wed, 2002/07/31 - 5:00am
Re: Konqueror [Re: Nice awards...]
by now you are probably right that it is probably too late (for a few reasons), but a small handful of hackers working over the past few years accomplished exactly what you said would be pointless because they didn't agree with this line of thought.
they've spent probably 1/40th the man power (based on # of people and # of years) and the resulting product is free software, it's stabile, the feature set is great and is keeping pace with other HTML renderers, it's quite fast, it is native to the platform it runs in, has decent RAM usage and allows a single HTML widget to be used acrossed their platform. you may have heard of it: KHTML.
the javascript engine it uses is also native (KJS), which means it can be used outside of the HTML widget itself and in other platform pieces.
By Aaron J. Seigo at Wed, 2002/07/31 - 5:00am
Re: Konqueror [Re: Nice awards...]
They have not accomplished it - konqueror fails to support many of the standards that mozilla supports, and it renders more pages badly. Don't believe me? take a look at some of the demos on http://www.mozilla.org/start/1.0/demos.html - all standards compliant pages. Compare how well they work in mozilla and konqueror - then come back and tell me if they are equal (There are some cool demos there by the way, but even the complex spiral demo which is css1 only fails to display properly in IE or Opera, and didn't work properly in Konq last time i tried it.
By me at Sat, 2002/08/03 - 5:00am
Re: Nice awards...
I try to avoid flames, but jesus christ
1) Face up to the facts. GNOME 2 was unstable. So what that you installed it and got it running well, if lots of other people found it to be broken. Your machine is not the only one. The hard data is the people you see complaining... and there are quite a few. Read mailing lists, read articles like this one. Or you can stick your head in the sand and not hear any of it :-)
Unstable? - you have got to be joking
I have seen the occasional person complaining about lack of configuration options and that is about it
2) The GNOME 2 release was rushed by a long way... hardly any apps ported. Imagine if KDE 3 was released with just konqueror. LOL! Naturally the reason for the hurry has to be 'corporate pressures'.
How rushed? - you just dont get it
3) GNOME has a history of hyping up its future technologies and failing to deliver. Witness Bonobo... even miguel says it is crap now. Just because something is 'in the works' doesn't mean it will be any good. And lets face it, with the problems in porting to GNOME 2, don't get your hopes up.
Hate to burst your bubble but Miquel!= to Gnome
4) Why the hell are you even here hawking your GNOME shit? Sorry, but I suspect it is because of *sour grapes*. You can't believe than GNOME was passed up for enlightenment :-) Well, believe it!
Like the KDE trolls pounce on any gnome story on Linux Today or Slashdot
On the Gnome User forum your message if reversed would be classed as flamebait
By redtux at Fri, 2002/08/02 - 5:00am
Re: Nice awards...
This guy is a known anti-KDE troll from Linux Today. His name is Mike. If you find his website it's rather sad...
By ac at Fri, 2002/08/02 - 5:00am
KMail vs. Evolution [Re: Nice awards...]
Let me give you my reasoning - why Evolution is not ready for everyday use.
Don't get me wrong.
Vadim Plessky
By Vadim Plessky at Mon, 2002/07/29 - 5:00am
Re: KMail vs. Evolution [Re: Nice awards...]
If it doesn't support your language then i guess that's a pretty good reason for using it! Like you said GNOME 2 provides really good language support, so i would suggest you take another look at evolution when it is ported (they're going to do another 1.x release first, so the GNOME 2 version will probably be next year)
By rogue at Mon, 2002/07/29 - 5:00am
Re: KMail vs. Evolution [Re: Nice awards...]
well, if you mean that I should bugreport to Evolution developers about support for Russian language - I did it. Not to much help from developers, though.
My time is somewhat limited at a moment, so I can't spend much time on *testing* GNOME2 (like I did for KDE2 and do for KDE3). So, GNOME2 hackers should fix NLS in Evo and GNOME on their own...
By Vadim Plessky at Tue, 2002/07/30 - 5:00am
Re: KMail vs. Evolution [Re: Nice awards...]
No, what i meant is that from what i can tell (i don't speak russian..) Evolution _does_ support Russian now (in the stable 1.0x version). So i was wondering whether you had actually installed it and tried using it - if so what was the problem.
By rogue at Tue, 2002/07/30 - 5:00am
Re: KMail vs. Evolution [Re: Nice awards...]
Evolution works fine with Russian, so I don't know what you are talking about. As long as your iconv() supports the charset, Evolution supports the language. The only languages which this is not necessarily the case for are asian and BiDi languages (because character layout isn't the same as other langauges).
Of course, the last 2 will magically be fixed when they port to GNOME2 and use Pango.
If text is displaying as dotted squares or something, then the problem is not evolution's fault - you just chose a font that doesn't contain the Russian glyphs. Use gnomecc to choose your font, or if you use the development version you can change the fonts used within Evolution itself. (all known issues with Russian messages has been traced to the user using the wrong font, usually an iso-8859-1 font or the like).
By anon at Thu, 2002/08/01 - 5:00am
Re: KMail vs. Evolution [Re: Nice awards...]
That's what i thought - sounds like the guy hasn't even tried evolution.
By rogue at Fri, 2002/08/02 - 5:00am
Re: Nice awards...
Why can't all the anti-kde looser gnomers like yourself just stop
By A Ivarsson at Tue, 2002/07/30 - 5:00am
Re: Nice awards...
I complained about the article (which I found here), not about KDE.
By Spark at Tue, 2002/07/30 - 5:00am
Re: Nice awards...
I've used Evolution for everything from personal organiser to POP3, to IMAP and LDAP - and I've been using it since it's early alpha days. It crashed a lot at first (hardly suprising, it was an early alpha)... and then suddenly (approx 18 months ago) it stopped crashing. Since then I've had ONE, repeat ONE, unexplained crash 6 months ago. This is an app I hammer on regularly - it is extraordinarily reliable. OfB are simply talking the usual KDE zealot rubbish, as a quick read of the other stuff on their site confirms.
By Compton at Wed, 2002/07/31 - 5:00am
Re: Nice awards...
I see, a quick read of... ? Certainly not the positive mention of Debian, a distro that prefers GNOME. Certainly not the short article "GNOME 2 Released, Presents Challenge to KDE."
I know you don't like this award, but lets be fair and not disqualify a news site because you simply don't agree with who got an award. Afterall, can you prove that OfB spreads KDE zealot rubbish? Please do.
Alternatively, we can discuss this rationally, as I did with Anon Man. Anon Man was certainly a good representitive of the GNOME community, rather then calling the executioner before the judge he was reasonable. You'll get a lot more information if you are reasonable too.
By Timothy R. Butler at Thu, 2002/08/01 - 5:00am
Re: Nice awards...
If there is one thing you can guarantee about KDE, it's that plenty of desperate dite admins will pop up and start slamming GNOME in an attempt to start a flame war and gain attention for their site.
So far, you've posted an awards piece slagging off Evolution for not integrating with KDE (duh!) - completely ignoring the fact that KMail is seriously nonfunctional for anyone not using a simple POP3 system; criticised GNOME for not running when you compiled it yourself (I suppose it never occured to you that you may have screwed something up yourself?) and starting a fuss over nothing by criticising RedHat (thereby inflaming the KDE zealort hordes into action) over something and NOTHING. And now you want to turn it around on to me... a representative of the GNOME community (which I most certainly am not). You've got a bloody cheek, I'll give you that much.
Your troll site, ad-revenue generating career is off to a stellar start. Unfortunately you are also making sure that no-one except KDE advocates believes a single word you say. Perhaps that doesn't bother you, but I must warn you that they are a fickle bunch.
By Compton at Thu, 2002/08/01 - 5:00am
Re: Nice awards...
Yup, that's true, and I'm not one of them. You'll notice the only things I said in the article about Evolution were positive. Certainly bashing GNOME does little to benefit me, and so I won't do it. Even if it did benefit me, I wouldn't bash it.
Now, if you would just listen to me - something I think is hopeless - you would have noticed that I said that the KDE integration thing was because we found KDE to be easier to use. Thus programs that benefit from this easy to use style gain a bit. As well, I have listed problems with GPG and crashing as two other things that lowered Evolution's chances. It's a GREAT client. It just didn't win. Get over it - KMail is an excellent client too, and many people prefer it, yes, prefer it. Awards aren't exact, they are based on opinion and analysis. Thus you might like Evolution, but that doesn't make it the only possiblity.
Now, about RedHat, if you would read all the comments you'd see most people agree with the assertion. RedHat's actions are definately note the way to treat a project the size of KDE or GNOME. Especially a project with major sponsorship from SuSE and Mandrake. And this was marked commentary, incase you didn't notice.
Finally, read this message: http://dot.kde.org/1027806378/1028061892/1028089117/ . Now, I've noted there several things I've said that aren't exactly pro-KDE by any sense of the word. I've even suggested the future may be for GNOME. Now, tell me, does a KDE zealot write this kind of thing?
By Timothy R. Butler at Thu, 2002/08/01 - 5:00am
Re: Nice awards...
You are giving the GNOME community a bad name. Yes we can choose to disagree with his opinions.
We do not do so by flaming him!
Please, let us act reasonably and keep in mind that GNOME 2.0 is acknowledged *by the developers* not to be completely ready for mass consumption. By GNOME 2.2 this should be rectified. Let us wait till until.
Please do calm down...
By Anon Man at Thu, 2002/08/01 - 5:00am
Re: Nice awards...
Hello Tim...the above post was *not* addressed at you - it was addressed at the post above. Sorry if there's a misunderstanding.
By Anon Man at Thu, 2002/08/01 - 5:00am
Re: Nice awards...
Hi Anon Man,
BTW, if you ever feel the urge to write something, you are welcome to the soapbox at OfB.
BTW 2, I believe it was you who posted a screenshot of GTK's new file selector dialog. Thanks! That's always been one of my pet peeves with GTK... I can't wait to have a decent open/save dialog for the Gimp! :-)
Have a good evening Anon!
By Timothy R. Butler at Thu, 2002/08/01 - 5:00am
Re: Nice awards...
Hi Tim,
I suspect people on both sides are getting a bit...'agitated' over this. I did not expect this thread to mushroom like it did. Congrats on maintaining your cool!
We are like spoilt children fighting for control of a tiny apple, not thinking that if we 'work together' we will attract more that we can individually :) I think a lot of people have lost the cooperation viewpoint... It has become more of a 'my side should win' debate now, unfortunately.
It is for this reason that I am hoping for a good showing by GNOME 2.2 next year. I honestly believe that we *need* two full featured DE for Linux. At any rate, the initial GNOME 2.0.0 is (in my opinion only of course) a substantial improvement over GNOME 1.4
Thank you for the offer of the soapbox on OfB. You can rest assured that if I do end up writing - it will be a measured, reasonable article :)
One minor quibble though (on a different note) - I am waiting for your take on this:
You stated in your Redhat & KDE article that KDE had "over 50%" of Linux users while GNOME hovered around 20%. I'm not sure where your source is for this. Could you please point it out? Also, does this take into account that there are users who use KDE as a DE but a lot of GNOME apps?
Thanks! I await your response.
By Anon Man at Thu, 2002/08/01 - 5:00am
Re: Nice awards...
Howdy Anon,
1.) All the UnitedLinux *cought* distros prefer KDE. SuSE and Conectiva being the most notable desk top distros in the bunch - especially SuSE. SuSE is probably either second or third in desktop installations. I would imagine 90% of UL-distros users use KDE, based on my analysis.
2.) Mandrake, treats GNOME and KDE fairly equally, but as its heritage is as a KDE-friendly distro, it defaults to KDE. Mandrake is arguably the most popular desktop distribution. I'd think that at least 75-80% of Mandrake users probably use KDE based on my experiences.
3.) RedHat, I suspect, is probably second in desktops. Probably most RedHat users use GNOME, but many also use KDE. RedHat's announced disinterest in desktops, makes my suggestion that they are only second or less in desktop market share increasingly reasonable. I would imagine at least 30-50% of RedHat users use KDE.
4.) If we then consider various smaller distros like Lycoris and ELX, we end up with most of them using KDE as well. On these distros you probably have virtually 100% KDE users.
In the end, while GNOME may end up on more systems (even some sloppy server installs), I think most like KDE has a much larger portion of the actual desktop pie. This is most likely especially true now that Mandrake (presumably with a KDE default desktop) and Lindows are being sold preloaded at Wal-Mart.com.
Anyway, while I'm being fairly simplistic here, this coupled with polls on people's preferences, the fact that KDE was usable sooner then GNOME (fairly, I would say KDE 2.0 and GNOME 1.4 were when they both became somewhat usable), etc. make this case fairly convincing.
It might be interesting to do an actual analysis someday, although I'm not sure how you could ever make it actually accurate. Since distros don't know what their users use, and surveys are woefully inaccurate. :-(
By Timothy R. Butler at Fri, 2002/08/02 - 5:00am
Re: Nice awards...
Oh, one more bit - http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS3153607016.html . DL's poll - yes polls are woefully inaccurate - is probably the most accurate desktop survey so far. Based on over 2,500 responses, Mandrake and SuSE are on top.
By Timothy R. Butler at Fri, 2002/08/02 - 5:00am
file selector
btw have you tried ximian gnome (1.x not 2.x) - they replaced the standard gnome file selector with one which i think you'd prefer. I guess they'll do the same with 2.x when they do their release(although they hadn't last time i looked at the snapshots). While i'm talking about gnome 2.0 i'd really recommend that with something as large as a Desktop Environment (gnome or kde) you wait for it to be integrated into a decent distro (My preference is redhat - you might not like them, but i think they do gnome best ;-) or for ximian to add their polish and package a release. Why? - because this is what the vast majority of users do, so it will be more representative of the experience that they will get.
By rogue at Fri, 2002/08/02 - 5:00am
Re: file selector
Hi Dave,
By Timothy R. Butler at Fri, 2002/08/02 - 5:00am
Re: Nice awards...
But why do they release a 2.0 final version if it's still not ready for the masses. You know, this is meant honest and not as the usual flame against Gnome, but for my taste there are too much promises for future versions in the Gnome world. Every complaint will be fiexed, every feature added, in some far-off new Gnome version. But what about the current reality?
By Ralex at Thu, 2002/08/01 - 5:00am
Re: Nice awards...
Hi Ralex:
The decision was made for a number of reasons. I have mentioned them earlier, but will do so again (because you have not flamed)
1) Developers needed something to work against. GNOME 2.0.0 was stated (by the core gnome developers themselves) to mean a general freezing of the API etc. It is not meant to be extremely full featured.
2) Some features had been stated (very far back) to be included only in later versions. It was felt that if too much was added in one lump, debugging, management would become hell.
Here are some promises GNOME has kept:
1) Nautlius is fast. You do not have to take my word on this - please try it for yourself
2) AA is there...
3) The API is stable - a lot of changes have been made under the hood. I think that is the most important point of this release. The under the hood changes have been made, now the apps have to move to it.
4) Usability has improved. Granted, this is difficult to quantify, but the mess of dialogs and lists of preferences has been pared down. You can still change stuff using gconf. Also, the gnome developers appear to be pushing for more conformance of the HIG.
None of this souns very sexy - but it is extremely important if you want to develop further. We would all love for the changes to come immediately, but that is unfortunately not the case Oh well...based on what I've seen, I'm *more* than willing to wait :)
Current reality is actually quite good :) If there's one thing to take away from this its "Try it for yourself". Do not assume that just because someone said something bad about GNOME it is so. Try it out! You can use GARNOME, your dist. packages, Mandrake beta, etc to see what the new GNOME will be like.
By Anon Man at Thu, 2002/08/01 - 5:00am
KMail is great!
Well deserved I think that KMail is at times very underestimated and really deserves to win this award. I'm a former windows/Outlook user but I really don't see the greatness with Outlook. I want a stable functional Email client that handles my mail stable and secure and I have found that in KMail.
Of course if the criteria for winning is most Outlook a' like then Evolution should be the winner, but it wasn't was it ...
Congrats to the developers and keep up the good work!
By DiCkE at Sun, 2002/07/28 - 5:00am
Congratulations !!
Again, congratulations !!!
By Murphy at Mon, 2002/07/29 - 5:00am
Update the "Awards"-page?
The KDE awars-page seems to need an update - the last award here ist from 2001!
By Ralex at Tue, 2002/07/30 - 5:00am
Tim R. Butler Open For Business
Tim Butler and the Open For Business website and these awards are a total sham! Tim is a devout KDE user and pretty much the only person who runs Open For Business. In fact he is the person who really started the embarrassing "jihad" against Red Hat today. So anyway I hope all of KDE enjoys the shameful awards bestowed upon you.
Christopher D. Felton
By chris felton at Tue, 2002/07/30 - 5:00am
Re: Tim R. Butler Open For Business
>So anyway I hope all of KDE enjoys the shameful awards bestowed upon you.
I'm certainly enjoying all the rabid GNOME supporters coming out of the Gnotices Ghost Town, desperately trying to find reasons other than that GNOME 2 was crap as to why GNOME did so poorly.
By ac at Wed, 2002/07/31 - 5:00am
Re: Tim R. Butler Open For Business
You know Tim, he's on your mailing lists, he's on the dot, he's pro-KDE. He certainly not impartial. So he shouldn't try to pass off these awards as impartial. It is a tactic of the worst political campaigns. If you like winning fixed fights--good for you, but I respect integrity. It is not very Christian.
By chris felton at Wed, 2002/07/31 - 5:00am
Re: Tim R. Butler Open For Business
:: It is not very Christian.
By Evan "JabberWok... at Wed, 2002/07/31 - 5:00am
Re: Tim R. Butler Open For Business
Am I pro KDE? Yes. Am I pro GNOME? Yes. :-) See the paradox here? Right now I don't think GNOME is quite ready for primetime, however Anon Man (who was here yesterday) as well as others have very encouraging reports about GNOME 2.2. I await anxiously, and will give GNOME 2.2 the fair review it deserves - whether that be postive (I hope) or negative.
By Timothy R. Butler at Wed, 2002/07/31 - 5:00am
Re: Tim R. Butler Open For Business
It it just generally not a good idea to give official "rewards" if you are a user of one of those systems, especially if you are basically the only jury. It is completely impossible for a user of one system to be completely unbiased.
BTW, when you testdrive GNOME again next it would be nice from you if you would choose the Ximian version. Those are meant to be good even without decent knowledge of installation issues and those are especially meant for businesses so they should fit to your site. :) When you test a version of Mandrake of Redhat or even compile for yourself, always keep in mind that some problems might be installation specific (like the missing-helpfiles desaster that lead to a lot of anger in Eugenia's GNOME 2 review).
Also I suggest those to avoid trouble:
Also always avoid commentaries about market share and such. :) That has absolutely no place in a review.
My point basically just is, that I'm sick of "xyz sucks" reviews. We should have more "xyz rocks" reviews. If something is loved by millions of people, it just can't generally suck, no way. :) Yes, this also applies to MS Windows although many Windows users probably don't exactly love it.
By Spark at Wed, 2002/07/31 - 5:00am
Re: Tim R. Butler Open For Business
Well, I'm not the only jury member I should note. :-) The other thing I should note is while I use KDE, I use KDE for the reasons we gave the award, rather then we gave the award because I use KDE. If GNOME 2 ever become more productive in my opinion then KDE, I would switch. I do have some loyalty to the community, but for the most part I'll use whatever product works best within my criterion (Free Software, mostly).
A/f/a Ximian. I wanted to get a test run of GNOME 2 last month, and since Ximian IIRC still hasn't released a GNOME2 package, that would have caused GNOME not to be in the desktop at all. :-( I will try Ximian GNOME2 once it comes out, however I do consider it a mark against either D.E. if one can not use it without lots/some/a few problems directly from a distro CD. I'm sure you can understand this. It's really ashame that Ximian GNOME is seperate, and thus the average user doesn't get to enjoy the benefits.
Anyway, you are right in the last part of your comments, as well. So far I haven't given any bad reviews of anything. Generally there is always something postive to highlight, which I try to do. On the other hand, I note the problems too, as my goal is to allow the reader to have the tools needed to make a fair judgement, and not just receive the rose colored glasses information. :-) Overall, I think that was indeed what you were suggesting - so we agree I suspect.
By Timothy R. Butler at Wed, 2002/07/31 - 5:00am
Re: Tim R. Butler Open For Business
I would have believed your claim to being impartial, but then i read your Radhat article. The biggest load of Bullshit i have ever read - it deserves to be a comment on slashdot (modded down to -1 as a troll), not as a "News" article.
By me at Wed, 2002/07/31 - 5:00am
Re: Tim R. Butler Open For Business
It was not a "News" article, it was marked commentary. Surely, one has a right to an opinion, doesn't he? Apparently RedHat saw the problem with its earlier position to, as they have now said that they are going to demo KDE during their regular RH demonstrations, and they will provide a machine to demo RedHat on at the KDE booth.
Further more, I await anyone able to prove that what was said in the article was not true. Is it not true that RedHat should not contact a project they don't help and ask (as if it was fair) that the said project demo their software, while in return the project only receives their name printed in a list of names? Is that really a fair offer by RedHat? Certainly that isn't want Mandrake and SuSE are doing to GNOME!
I'm not impartial about RedHat, I have never claimed to be. RedHat != GNOME.
Anyway the key thing is - anyone who says they are completely impartial shouldn't be believed. However, one can do a very good job of disconnecting their opinions from their writing. And, when I am unsure that I have, I contact others and ask for them to see if I let any bias in to the article. Take for instance my SuSE review. I have a number of qualms with SuSE, so when I did the review, I had one ex-SuSE user and one current (pro-)SuSE user take a look and advise me on whether they thought it was fair. Both confirmed it was indeed fair. Infact, many people read the review and were left with the impression that my favorite distro was SuSE, since I presented a number of flaws, but presented them in a fair way. Mission accomplished.
On the other hand, I do publish commentary. Commentary is ALWAYS biased. You can't make your opinion known and not be biased. Non-biased commentary, in reality, is news.
By Timothy R. Butler at Wed, 2002/07/31 - 5:00am
Redhat not equal evil
"Is it not true that RedHat should not contact a project they don't help and ask (as if it was fair) that the said project demo their software, while in return the project only receives their name printed in a list of names? Is that really a fair offer by RedHat? Certainly that isn't want Mandrake and SuSE are doing to GNOME!"
You put this in a way that sounds bad for Redhat.
This is the complete truth, not "adjusted" in any way. Does it still sound like Redhat did something highly immoral? Not really, does it?
The offer of KDE in turn was that they wanted them to carry a system for them and demo KDE at their booth (and indeed KDE, not just have it running to demo something else). For a sticker! Also I could imagine that this was confused with KDE people asking to present KDE personally at Redhat booth, that's why the PR guy probably said that they are already full.
The only thing that Redhat did really wrong was offering KDE the same as every other smal exhibitor, as KDE is a damn big project and was probably pissed by this lack of respect. But wouldn't simply declining the offer have been _much_ simpler? Is this a reason to call Redhat a "Linux for idiots" (see the page title here: http://www.derkarl.org/rednot.phtml)?
BTW, neither do I use any kind of Redhat system, nor do I plan to in the future and I'm not related to any Redhat developer. I would never think of defending them when they would really do something immoral.
By Spark at Wed, 2002/07/31 - 5:00am
Re: Redhat not equal evil
The point of my phrasing is that RedHat was asking an awful lot from a project they publically attacked previously (admittedly before Qt with QPL'ed and then GPL'ed), have very little support for (security updates even fail to become available), and whom they pay no one TTBOMK to work on (Bero does KDE work on his own time). The really arrogant thing is, then, to ask this project - which is largly sponsored by SuSE and Mandrake - to use RedHat.
That would be, in effect, like going to the GNOME people with a similar offer from Lindows.com or Lycoris. These two distros have actually treated GNOME better then RedHat has treated KDE in the past (they just ignore GNOME), but it would be insane of them to ask GNOME developers to demo their system since they don't support GNOME.
Anyway, that, I see is the heart of the problem. RedHat was asking for at least one system to run RedHat w/ a Shadowman sticker on it - something KDE's sponsors probably don't appreciate much - and in exchange they got... mentioned just like every much smaller project that did the same. Certainly, as you suggest, a project that has more lines of code then any other Open Source/Free Software project (IIRC) deserves a bit more respect before it gets a Rodney Dangerfield complex.
Still, I don't think RedHat is evil. Infact many times I have considered them better then SuSE. UnitedLinux is much much more of a danger to the community then RedHat, IMO. RedHat also has some wonderful people such as Michael Tiemann who do a good job of presenting the GNU/Linux case. And, RedHat - like Mandrake - doesn't publish any of their software under non-free licenses, something I applaud them for. I just don't happen to like some of the actions of their Marketriods.
By Timothy R. Butler at Wed, 2002/07/31 - 5:00am
Re: Redhat not equal evil
"RedHat was asking an awful lot"
Isn't this quite a far-stretched interpretation of running one system on RedHat and putting a small RedHat sticker on a screen?
By Spark at Thu, 2002/08/01 - 5:00am
Re: Redhat not equal evil
I don't think it was a far-stretched interpretation. If your competitors are sponsoring a project, it is asking a lot of that project to use your distro on their *own* computer and display *your* sticker, at least if you have exactly ZERO paid developers working on that project at all (and that project is of the a stature of KDE, GNOME, X11, etc.). Its asking evening more, since you can't even use official RedHat packages to demo the machine...
Perhaps Mr. Mann didn't know about KDE's large size, however, surely he did some research before denying KDE's requests. If not he was stupid, and if he did, and still said they wouldn't demo KDE (even though they actually are), he wasn't so bright either. Either way, I think what speaks volumes is that Todd Burr of RedHat decided to contact KDE and resolve this - he wouldn't have given in if RedHat really felt the way it seems Tommy Mann did.
So now, if RedHat provides a system that has a well configured KDE setup they stand to gain a LOT - people may stop at the KDE booth, see the great working RedHat setup, and start using RedHat. That's a pretty good deal, needless to say. As someone else pointed out, RedHat is the only one that is going to make any money out of this deal. Certainly KDE won't, nor will Mandrake or SuSE (unless the RedHat system is terrible compared to the other two's systems ;-)).
Anyway Re Linux for Idiots, that did not appear until after RedHat's foible, so KDE hardly fired the first shot in this case. Was that called for? No, but Charles was quite reasonable until after the whole thing was over.
By Timothy R. Butler at Thu, 2002/08/01 - 5:00am
Re: Redhat not equal evil
> Redhat's PR treating of KDE was definetly arrogant,
i take exception to this. the response from Charles was "sure, if you'll reciprocate by showing some KDE in your booth and provide us with a system to show Redhat on with the latest stable KDE as we don't have such a system available". the wording was a little different, but we're not all poets. it wasn't arrogant, however.
when redhat replied "no, we won't show kde and now we won't give you a demo system. but hey, you could STILL use redhat, right? right? media matrix!" that! was arrogance. well, actually, it was ignorance. because apparently the guy who wrote it was something of a marketing cluefuck who had no idea what KDE was.
tim wrote an article on the reaction (which was basically, "typical redhat. ask something of kde but give nothing back. still no support shown for kde. fine! i can just as easily steer clear of redhat as they can of kde.") when that reaction was picked up by people at redhat via tim, they realized the error that had been made and worked with some kde folks to get it resolved. and resolved it was.
if people had just sat there and shut up, redhat wouldn't be in the kde booth and kde wouldn't have gotten a public thumbs-up from redhat. in other words, the fact that some people found the guts and the brains to speak their mind affected actual, positive change. sometimes the status quo sucks. sometimes it needs to be messed with. as long as it is done with a measure of prudence and civility, it can result in good things.
but it is not arrogance to ask for reciprocity. it is not arrogance to promote your project, at least when you do so w/out request to abandon other "competing" projects in the process. it is not arrogance when one decides to use systems that support your project. it is not arrogance to expect that when a project does include your project, that they treat it well and don't botch it for the users with a half-hearted attempt.
arrogance is feeling you have the right to call someone else arrogant for having pride in and looking for fair treatment of their contributions.
By Aaron J. Seigo at Wed, 2002/07/31 - 5:00am


text:
Vary the speed of your carver hands-free! This variable speed foot control pedal is a must have! It allows you to change the speed seamlessly with an easy to press foot pedal, leaving your hands free to hold the tool and your work simultaneously without interruptions from fumbling with hand controls. From off to full speed and everything in between, you'll be amazed how often you change your carving speed from moment to moment. With just a little change in foot pressure, you can change the speed to carve critically fine details or press down for fast carving. This foot pedal connects into your air hose to control the speed of your carver and comes with two brass hose barbs for easy hook-up. Just push your air hose onto the barbs and you have instant speed control. Your carving tool is off until you apply foot pressure to the pedal. The more you push the pedal, the faster your carver turns. The foot pedal uses an actual control valve connected to a long throw pedal to vary the air flow, unlike other foot pedals that pinch the air hose and can cause leaks and foot fatigue. Once you use a foot pedal like this, you'll wonder how you ever carved without it. This foot pedal is industrial grade and will last a lifetime.
F5 Turbine Nosecone Assembly - Includes new spindle/collet, wave/plate Washers, 24 Vane Impeller, Ceramic Bearings - Both rear & front flanged (sealed for dust & debris protection, lube-free, radial or angular designed with o-rIngs), 7 jet port injector manifold, Fluted brass nosecone with 10 seated exhaust ports, New housing o-ring. Fully Assembled, just screw on to the Vortex F5 housing. Your choice of bearing and spindle type.
F5 Turbine Bearing Service - Includes new sealed ceramic lube free bearings with your choice of Radial or Angular, wave/plate washers, o-rings - Both rear & front flanged bearings are sealed for dust & debris protection.
The Vortex Router Base (VRB) attachment is finally here! Specifically designed for the Vortex High Speed Carver, the VRB is precision milled from Aerospace aluminum in a user friendly ergonomic shape. The VRB will take your Vortex to the next level allowing you to precision carve the perfect uniform depth to inlay precious metals, stones, woods and/or epoxies like a pro! It also allows you to carve perfect depth lettering and borders as well. Its hourglass shape with a wide front viewing port makes it easy to see what you're doing and the chamfered face is milled to remove the sharp edge to provide a smooth router movement. The VRB gives you complete control over the depth at which you are engraving. Simply slide it onto the end of the Vortex carver and tighten the three set screws with the allen wrench provided and you're really to carve. The 3 Stainless Steel set screws have nylon points which provide extra gripping strength while at the same time will not scratch or mar the surface of your Vortex carver and will allow you to lock down the router at any desired depth. Get the Vortex Router Base attachment today and add an entire new dimension to your engraving! Just a reminder that we also sell spare set screws and allen wrenches in case you lose them as they are quite small. Ordering a spare set will keep you from having down time waiting for a separate order to be shipped to you in case you lose them.
This combination air filter and water trap removes dirt & debris larger than 5 microns and helps catch condensed water. A must for improving the life of your turbine bearings. For best use, have at least 10 feet of hose between your air compress and this air filter/water trap. This will ensure the air has cooled and the water vapor has condensed where it can be collected by the water trap. Easy to connect. Your air compressor connects to the "IN" port and the Powercarver hose barb connect to the "OUT" port. When water collected is about 1/2 full in the clear bowl, open the release valve to drain the water. Remember to order 2 brass hose barbs to connect your air hose. The hose barbs are 1/4 NPT and push onto 1/8 inch inside diameter hose.
Our "Premium Grade" turbine lubrication is our lightest viscosity and is rated a meets H1 and 3H lubricant standards." Our premium grade turbine lubrication is non-toxic and formulated in accordance with the criteria established by for H1 and 3H lubricants. Warning: Do not use with Vortex F5 or carvers with permanently lubricated bearings.
These 30 hole aluminum bur holders are designed to hold standard FG type burs or any bur with a 1/16 inch (1.6mm) diameter shaft. Anodized colors vary (gold shown in photo.)
Valveless fittings are completely interchangeable. Fitting halves seal with a twist; replaceable O-rings eliminate leaks. Use to disconnect tool from air supply. Fitting is 1/8" ID (fits our air hose). Rated to 100 psi.
Keeps diamond and stone cutters clean to maximize life. At normal hand piece cutting speed, cut into the cleaning stone for approximately two seconds. This removes debris from the diamond and stone burs and restores the cutting edges of diamond particles. For best results, moisten cleaning stone to clean more efficiently. The cleaning stone measures ¾"x¾"x3"
Organize your burs with this 24 holes high quality plastic bur holder. Designed to hold standard FG type burs or any bur with a 1/16 inch (1.6mm) diameter shaft. Colors vary.
Male Brass Hose Barb 1/4 NPT. Push on to 1/8 to 3/16 inch inside diameter hose. Threads are 1/4 NPT. Connect to your air compressor or filter and air hose.
4" Magnetic Polished Stainless Steel Bur Tray. Stop losing burs! Put all your burs into the magnetic bur tray and pick and choose the ones you need for your project.
This valve controls the speed of your tool. Simply turn the knob to your desired speed from shut off to full speed and everything in between. Can be used with tank and tankless air compressors.
This brass hose barb splicer allows you to connect two air hoses together by pushing the hose on to the barb. The splicer is designed for air hose with 1/8 inch inside diameter, like the hose that comes with most carvers and extra length of hose in this section. This splicer is all brass construction, will not rust or corrode. Precision machined to high quality standards.
Male Brass Hose Barb 1/8 NPT. Push on to 1/8 to 3/16 inch inside diameter hose. Threads are 1/8-27 NPT. These are used for the Speed Control Foot Pedal.
Female Brass Industrial Plug 1/4 NPT. Makes it easy to connect your air hose to your air compressor. If you have our air compressor with a quick release, get this matching part. It makes your air connections a snap!
Teflon® tape, also know as PTFE tape, is used to make a tight seal the threads for our brass hose barbs. With the threads facing you, wrap 3 turns of tape clockwise. Make sure the tape does not extend over the end of the horse barb, this will prevent blockage.
The stencil film is the secret behind making beautiful artwork. Simply copy the artwork from the internet, magazines, books onto the stencil film with any scanner/printer.
Stencil film has unique self adhesive film can be imaged on with a copier or printer. The image can then be cut out and applied to most surfaces by peeling off the backing. Use your Powercarver to trace the image resulting in a transfer of the image to your artwork.
Stencil film consists of a thin top film made from coated polyester film. The film is extremely tough considering its thinness. The top coating is specially formulated to allow toner and ink from your printer to adhere. You can also draw on the surface with pen or pencil.
Sheet size is 8 1/2 x 11 inches, only 1 mil thick, yet very tough. The film has a clear matte finish with a peel-off adhesive backing. Set your ink jet printer to "Draft", "Fast Print" or "Glossy Photo Paper". Sold in sheets of 5.
Minimum quantity for "Stencil and Transfer Film" is 5.
Clear air hose plastic tubing. Used to give you extra length between your carver and air compressor. Accepts 1/8 inch hose barbs.
Minimum quantity for "Air Hose Clear Tubing, only $0.95 per foot!" is 12.
1998 -
2020 Unbridled, LLC. All rights reserved. All prices are in USD.

subset: commoncrawl


text:
Youmusic is a different kind of music app.
Thanks to Youmusic we now have beautiful, consistent musical needs every day. Our customers are happy and engagement has drastically increased. Highly recommend!
Mikayla Miller
Grand Rapids, Michigan
Discover 100% more confident content.
We provide 24x7x365 support with knowledgeable Youmusic staff answering your requests.
Build selected relationships with your customers.
I have to say this is probably the best platform I have seen of its kind.
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Loomis, California
Full Stack Developer
Automation Specialist
Youmusic is the real deal. No doubt about it.
Sidney Campos
Owensboro, Kentucky


text:
How Do Players Age?
The last hot stove myth that I previously wrote about has to do with player aging.
Players peak at 27 and old players are worthless — Players peak at 29 — 30. And just because a guy is past his peak doesn't mean he's not valuable. The aging process is gradual, more like the Minneapolis Metrodome than an Egyptian pyramid. If a guy was good last year, even if he's in his mid-30s, he'll probably be good next year. Now, the older he gets the more dangerous long-run contracts get, but one- and two-year deals are fine.
This may not seem like much of a myth, as the conventional wisdom has long been that baseball players peak around 30. This, it turns out, is a myth of sabermetrics. Many methods have been used, aggregating performance into age-buckets, identifying the most-common (or mode) age at which players have their best season, and calculating average changes in performance from age to age. These methodologies suffer from various problems that could induce bias; therefore, I set out to conducted my own study in away that might satisfy my concerns.
I gathered a sample of major-league baseball players over 86 seasons who had significant career lengths to track performance over time. Without a career, there is no trajectory to follow. I tracked their performances over ages 24 — 35, throwing out younger and older years when only the best players typically play. Following individual players over time allowed me to set baselines for each player according to his ability, while controlling for changes in playing environments which may fluctuate quite a bit over the course of a player's career. For example, a hitter who started his career in the mid-1980s and finished in the late-1990s might have appeared to have continuously improved, when in fact his higher offensive statistics reflected a jump in league offense. I used z-scores to measure player performance in terms of standard deviations from the league average to measure performance relative to one another.
I poked, prodded, and tortured the data, and it screamed that peak performance occurs around age 29 since the early-1920s, possibly 30 for more-recent players, not matter what changes I made. Some aspects of performance peak earlier while others peak later, but overall players tended to gradually improve until 29 and slowly declined after that. I think it's particularly interesting that the average pitcher in the sample continues to reduce his walks until his 32nd birthday, while strikeouts peak at 24. Batters also improve in their ability to draw walks into their early-thirties, even after their hitting and power have declined. It appears that players continue improve mentally even after their physical skills are eroding. Maybe there is something to veteran know-how.
Age is often used as a reason to chastise GMs for picking up players past their prime. Though old players may not be what they once were, the evidence indicates they can still be valuable. According to my estimates, a hitter who has a .900 OPS at his peak would be expected to post around an .850 OPS at 35; a pitcher with a peak 3.5 ERA is expected to post around a 3.75 ERA at 35. Yes, age saps athletic skill, but the stock of skill being diminished is also important.
I should also note that previously, Phil Birnbaum argued that the quadratic shape of my estimated aging function could bias the peak. Certainly, this could happen. I looked into the possibility using polynomials of higher magnitudes and fractional polynomial methods that do not require symmetry. The results still hold, so I went with the more parsimonious functional form.
Update: Birnbaum offers a new critique, and I respond.
4 Responses "How Do Players Age?"
What are you concerns with the "calculating change in performance from age to age" method?
Are you not worried that only using players with long careers means you've left out players who peaked early and didn't last long enough to make your sample?
What about the skewing of the numbers that the rampant use of PEDs might have on the trends?
[…] This post was mentioned on Twitter by J.C. Bradbury, Ben Gritz. Ben Gritz said: @sabesin2001 I need to watch that (also, gross). And if you haven't read it yet this is a little interesting http://tinyurl.com/yzoam5s […]


text:
The Ocean in Focus at Rio+20
The preparations for Rio+20 identified the ocean as one of seven areas which need priority attention. The high turnout and active participation of leaders and institutions in ocean events in Rio speaks to the fact that the ocean community is coming together, with a shared concern that the ocean is not enough of a priority in the context of sustainability.
The very first entry point to discuss ocean governance at Rio was a side event of the Forum on Science, Technology and Innovation for Sustainable Development on 12 June, focusing on Science and Governance for Global Sustainability. The panellists and the public called for more and new research, including in social sciences, to fully understand and evaluate the impacts of global change on the world's oceans. Noting that current governance remains fragmented along both sectoral and geographical lines that ignore the interconnectivity and scale of ocean issues, they recognized that there is an urgent need for an international framework of cooperation for both ocean research and governance, which will define the conditions for scientist to prepare accurate scenarios for the future.
The Global Ocean Forum's Oceans Day at Rio+20 gathered over 375 ocean stakeholders from 46 countries and all sectors at the UN Conference on Sustainable Development on 16 June 2012 to highlight the importance of oceans, coasts, and small island developing States (SIDS) in sustainable development. The Oceans Day at Rio+20 also highlighted 12 tangible commitments for oceans, coasts, and SIDS.
The Oceans Day Co-Chairs —Biliana Cicin-Sain, President of the Global Ocean Forum, Tuiloma Neroni Slade, Secretary General of the Pacific Islands Forum Secretariat, and Wendy Watson Wright, Executive Secretary of the Intergovernmental Oceanographic Commission (UNESCO-IOC)— issued a Rio Ocean Declaration (pdf), calling for strong and immediate action through 7 concrete measures to meet the sustainable development goals for oceans, coasts, and small island developing States (SIDS) at Rio+20 and beyond.
The Global Partnership for Oceans was launched officially during Oceans Day, with 80 countries, civil society groups, private companies and international organizations – including UNESCO - signalling their commitment to work together around coordinated goals to restore the world's oceans to health and productivity through the partnership.
Among the partners are 17 private firms and associations including some of the largest seafood purchasing companies in the world, representing over $6 billion per year in seafood sales, as well as one of the world's largest cruise lines.
Wendy Watson Wright noted that there is an unprecedented focus on the ocean at Rio+20, thanks to the mobilization of the Ocean community, but also to a growing awareness among policy makers that ocean-related issues such as ocean acidification are one of the most important challenges not just to the ocean, but to the planet today.
'You can't have good policy without good science, and you can't have good science without good observation', she said, calling for a mechanism for global observation of ocean acidification. She also hoped to see further emphasis on science for underpinning decision making and more emphasis on the need to assist developing countries in terms of capacity building and transfer of marine technology.
In fact UNESCO-IOC has made a Rio+20 voluntary commitment to coordinate a global and regional assessment of capacity development needs in the field of marine scientific research and ocean observation in developing nations and SIDS, leading to the formulation and implementation of a global capacity development strategy to fill identified gaps.
This commitment will be presented by Irina Bokova, Director General of UNESCO, during the side event 'Know our Ocean, Protect our Marine Treasures, Empower Ocean Citizens' on 20 June 2012, where a prestigious panel will discuss and present a number of initiatives that support Rio+20 ocean targets leading to the sustainable use of the ocean.
Related links:
- Know our Ocean, Protect our Marine Treasures, Empower Ocean Citizens side event
- The ocean in focus; Science and Governance for Global Sustainability side event
- Rio+20 Voluntary Commitment: Building Global Capacity for Marine Sciences, Observation, and Transfer of Marine Technology
- Wendy Watson Wright interview during the Global Ocean Forum's day on Climate Change TV
- Strong support for Global Partnership for Oceans
<- Back to: All news


text:
The other day on my Keep or Return post, I had a lot of comments saying that the shoes I picked out "aren't your style" which led me to question (Carrie Bradshaw stylee!) "What is my style?" When I'm asked about what style I go for, I always say that I don't know. I really don't know, In these outfit pictures I've worn floral 4 times, leopard print 3 times, polka dot three times, stripes once and worn denim once! I've worn 3 playsuits, the same skirt 5 times, one shirt, 9 dresses and two coats. There isn't anything really consistent about what I wear I don't think! I wear alot of black and I own far too many cardigans! I never wear shorts or trousers, I don't even own a pair of jeans!
There was a period a few years ago when I would ONLY wear grey/black/white. No other colors, back then it was so simple to see things in shops that were "me". I was constantly drawn to oversized shapes (Probably because I was a little tubby!) and big baggy drop arm vests. Now I find it harder and harder to see clothes that are specifically "me". I just buy and wear things I'm attracted too when shopping! My styles evolved and changed so much since I was about 14, I've gone over every trend and style I can think of!
I like to mix and dip into different trends and styles and really experiment with colour and patterns! I like different textures and wearing two different pattens together. I have a unnatural obsession with leopard print! If i was to compare my style with anyone it would defiantly be Fearne Cotton. She, like me, isn't afraid to try different things and wear different things. I really don't think I have a style.
As a cheeky bonus, here's a little strip of images of me through the past 6 years, you can totally see how I've changed and evolved in that time. Because yes at one point I was a big emo girl! My hair is ridiculously short in most of these images, But I've had extensions on and off since I was 15! For the first time in my life all my hair is real!
How about you? Whats your style? Can you define yourself into a specific "style" related category? Let me know!
FYI. This isn't attacking anyone who said that the shoes weren't my style, It just got me really thinking about what exactly my style is.


text:
Markings on bearings
Each super-precision angular contact thrust ball bearing and cartridge unit has various markings on the outside surfaces (fig. 1):
- SKF trademark
- Complete designation of the bearing/unit
- Country of manufacture
- Date of manufacture, coded
- "MATCHABLE" label (single direction bearings only)
"V-shaped" marking
A "V-shaped" marking on the outside surface of the outer rings of universally matchable single direction bearings indicates how the bearing set should be mounted in relation to the axial load. The "V-shaped" marking points toward the side face of the inner ring that can support axial load. For sets of bearings, the large inner ring side face of the outer bearing should support axial load and should be mounted so that the "V-shaped" marking points in the direction opposite the axial load (fig. 2). In applications where there are axial loads in both directions supported by face-to-face or back-to-back arrangements, the inner ring side face of the outer bearing, to which the majority of the "V-shaped" markings point to, should support the heavier of the axial loads.


text: AfricaHunting.com BENEFACTORS & SUPPORTERS are devoted AfricaHunting.com members who appreciate and have benefited from being a member of our community and choose to give back and help support the site by paying for an upgraded non-commercial membership with a few extra features, click HERE to learn more about becoming an AH BENEFACTOR & SUPPORTER. If you are a company, professional hunter, hunting guide, outfitter or agent becoming a BENEFACTOR or SUPPORTER of AH is for non-commercial members only. Should you wish to SPONSOR the site please click here to learn more..


text:
Infinite Campus is a web based student information system that provides an access for parents to more effectively monitor the progress of their children.
Parent Portal Request form - English
Parent Portal Request form - Español
Haiku is a Learning Management System (LMS). Teachers use it to give students some of their assignments, assessments, resources, and so much more. You can now access your student's Haiku classes and see what they are doing in school. More About Haiku


text:
Noa Knows: It's time to reclaim Toronto graffiti!
Eagerly watching out her Queen West office window as graffiti artists work away at the notoriously vandalized sound barrier, Noa Knows The Reclamation Project deserves the spotlight. At the request of Metrolinx, nearby property developers, and community, a team of Canadian artists and community arts workers have been assembled to organize and coordinate this monumental located at Queen West and Dufferin alongside the Metrolinx rail tracks, making it Canada's largest graffiti mural!
The mural incorporates artists of different styles, community volunteers and local arts organizations in efforts to create a historical installation that represents and preserves Toronto's street art scene in its current state.
Exemplifying Toronto's love for street art, The Reclamation Project proves just how important City funded arts projects are to our local communities. So, the next time you're walking by the Gladstone, make sure you check out the mural happenings and give TO some props for helping Canada's largest graffiti mural exist–we're going to need to show diligent support if we want to see any more projects like this in the future.


text:
. Please
April 10, 2020, 12:42:13 pm
Operation East Wind Forum
East Wind III Day Player Info
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Topic: East Wind III Day Player Info (Read 26791 times)
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East Wind III Day Player Info
January 11, 2010, 07:18:49 am »
We have the day player requirements for East Wind attendees up!
NATO requirements are here
East Bloc requirements are here
First the basics:
What is a day player and how is it different from a full or part time attendee?
Day players arrive on the field in the morning (muster in is at 09:00) and play for the day mustering out at 18:00 (6 pm). In essence, being a day player is much like about any other airsoft game most of us go to. You show up, you play, you leave the field of battle at the end of the day. Cost is minimal for day players since the expenses incurred by the event administration to support day players are fairly minimal. Day players do not need to check out night vision units since they are not here at night; day players do not need to be supported with meals since it is easy for them to just pack along a lunch; day players are generally not burning up $50 worth of illumination flares per night etc etc etc. For the event, day players are a win/win situation since the full time guys really appreciate the extra combat firepower and energy of guys who have not spent the last 4 nights on extended patrols can bring to the table and there is not much infrastructure required to support them. For the players themselves, this is a win/win as well since they get to participate in one of the most in depth Milsim events on the planet without having to get all the gear required to attend as a full or part time soldier nor commit to taking an extended period of time off. Also, for guys who have days off during the week but work weekends, attending as a day player means you can play some serious airsoft on a Tuesday if you want. Being a day player is obviously also a great option if you are curious to see what East Wind has to offer before committing 100% to coming to a future East Wind event as a full time soldier.
What should a day player expect at East Wind?
East Wind is a Milsim event, it is not a speedball match. You will be participating in Milsim missions with very clear and direct goals. You will be fighting shoulder to shoulder with the full time guys as you seek to achieve your missionâs goals. Day players are not going to be stuck guarding the camp all day (the full time guys will be MORE than happy to take a day in garrison and get caught up on some rest). Day players will not be used as cooks in the MKT (although you may want to after you see that thing). Pretty much without exception in East Windâs past day players have ended up forward on every major daytime offensive push and every time, they have proven to be a valuable and much appreciated asset. In short, do not expect to be sprinting around for 9 hours whizzing bbs like mad, but do expect to be in some of the fiercest, most hard fought airsoft of your life.
What is the cost for attending as a day player?
Cost per day is $20 with the exception of the first Saturday and the last Sunday of the event which are largely moving in and moving out of the field. Day attendees are welcome on both days at no cost. Additional costs to be considered are of course food, transportation and lodging (if attending more than one day). While these costs are not included in your field fee, we have hunted up some very reasonable options to help defer some of those costs a great deal.
Lodging: This year, East Wind is being held at a facility that is used most of the year as a rustic resort for outdoorsmen. As a result, there are cabins on site (outside of the area being used for combat) that can be rented for a very reasonable fee. All of the cabins are bunk house style cabins that sleep quite a few guys comfortably so if you get together with a bunch of guys, renting a cabin to crash in is a very reasonable option. If you are astonishingly cheap (like me) there are a number of Conservation Dept areas very nearby where one could primitive camp for free.
Transportation: For those of you who want to travel from fairly far flung distances take a look at Amtrak as an option. The train station at LaPlata, Mo. is a very reasonable striking distance from the East Wind and if you are coming with a group, we would be happy to arrange to send a
up there to pick you up and drop you off if you would prefer not to make the drive. The train servicing the LaPlata station is the Southwest Chief. It is a very comfortable train and has service from Southern California up to Chicago with many stops in between as well as obviously connection options. Likewise, flights into Chicago followed up by connections to Amtrak are a good option as well. What could be more Milsim for the European theater of operations than taking a train somewhere then riding the rest of the way to your unit in the back of a military truck?
Food is obviously not as big of a trick. Most of us know how to buy and transport food. If you are staying at the cabins, this is a snap to manage since all of the cabins have kitchens in them and cooking meals/packing lunches is no tougher than it is at home. None the less, we recognize the value of a good meal after running around all day and it just so happens that we have the capacity to provide it. The NATO camp MKT (Mobile Kitchen Trailer) will offer dinner meals (not lunch or breakfast) to day players for a flat fee of $7 per person per meal. If you have not heard about our cook; letâs just say that you will be eating at the best restaurant for 100 miles around, the food is top notch. MKT meals are available to day players on both sides of the event so East Bloc or NATO alike, you have a good dinner meal option on hand. I know that I for one would eat dinner at the MKT every day for the rest of my life at $7 per meal.
Where is East Wind III being held?
We do not announce the exact location or post driving directions until the first of March. East Wind events are not held at airsoft fields and we do not want people tempted to trespass on property to look the place over before the event. We can tell you in general terms that East Wind III is being held at a field appox 30 miles north of Columbia, Missouri on a very scenic 400 acre private field.
What are the age requirements for day players?
The minimum age for attending East Wind as a day player is 16 years old. Ages 16-17 will need a waiver signed by a parent to attend. 18+ obviously can sign their own waivers.
How do I attend as a day player?
We prefer if at all possible to know a little before hand who is coming on what days. If possible, try to post in this thread and let us know what days you plan to attend:
Optional Day Player sign up post
If your schedule is variable or you simply will not know till later that is fine, you can simply show up on site at 09:00 and muster in. Please note that the muster in time is 09:00 sharp so do try not to be late since we will be getting everyone processed in and into the game as quickly as possible. Everyone hates having to stand around and wait⦠Field fee payment is due when you muster in.
Are rental weapons available?
While on the face of it, this may seem like an odd question for an event like this, there are a number of people who are outside of the usual airsoft community who have expressed interest in checking out East Wind. Reenactors, veterans from that time frame, ROTC cadets, militaria collectors or just history buffs. We understand that buying an airoft weapon for just one event is not always that practical. As long as you let us know in advance we can most likely hunt you up a rental weapon system, the rest of the gear required is cheap enough to just pick up so you are on your own for the balance of the gear required.
Who do I talk to if I have further questions?
Feel free to PM me directly if you have any questions or hop over to the East Wind forums
and ask there. Keep in mind that during the week of East Wind, all of the admin staff will be AT East Wind so late questions will not likely get answered since we donât have a reliable internet connection out in the field and even if we did we wouldnât have time to be on it.
Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 08:06:55 am by aswayze
WARPAC Admin
Knows what he's talking about...
Posts: 3488
Re: East Wind III Day Player Info
Reply #1 on:
January 11, 2010, 06:41:06 pm »
Cabin fees are $15 a night per person.
They have a Rec room to hang out in and showers:)
Plus all the cabins and such are unique and overall a pretty cool place to unwind after a full day of "plastic death warfare".
If you are interested in renting a Cabin space - contact me and I will pass along the info to contact the site directly to arrange it.
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Can I get a picture?
Re: East Wind III Day Player Info
Reply #2 on:
January 12, 2010, 08:04:59 am »
Jeez, you guy make it all sound so nice that I'm thinking of doing the dayplayer thing!
Not really, but it does really sound nice, that would be quite an "airsoft" outing, come out to Eastwind, get to experience all that it is, then go hang out in a nice cabin for the night, go back out the next day and play some more Eastwind...
Honestly, not to sound like a commercial, but once again Eastwind has broken new ground. I've never heard of an event like this that could offer those kind of amenities.
Fight for something, but don't die for nothing...
East Wind NATO Planning Staff
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Posts: 406
Re: East Wind III Day Player Info
Reply #3 on:
February 16, 2010, 06:44:24 pm »
I'm with you Misha. The day thing is a cool deal. But I'm commited to helping the best chef in 100 miles. The cabins have Televisions as well as the recreation center which has a big screen TV. The Rec. center also has a pool table and an organ. And for the Day player who may be a hard core night fisherman there is alake just outside the cabin door. For the day player this is a real experience.
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Posts: 844
Can I get a picture?
Re: East Wind III Day Player Info
Reply #4 on:
February 16, 2010, 10:36:42 pm »
I'm not kidding...we've all joked about renting one of the cabins as a "Dacha" for "Party Members" to go and relax/get cleaned up etc... but alas, we're stupid like that and prefer mud/grime/grit and cigarette smoke (all scented with evergreen) and nasty canvas to a Dacha...
Such is the life of a Soldat...we'll let the party members stay in their Dachas!
Fight for something, but don't die for nothing...
Might know something...
Posts: 132
Re: East Wind III Day Player Info
Reply #5 on:
December 13, 2010, 11:04:39 pm »
Ok, sorry for this late post but I was wondering if a day player has the option of taking part in a night raid. I will not be attending this year but I would like to know for future reference. Thanks.
Quote from: Coop on June 09, 2011, 05:55:31 am
Bullet holes are milsim.
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Posts: 5558
Re: East Wind III Day Player Info
Reply #6 on:
December 13, 2010, 11:31:59 pm »
No worries on the necro posting, at least it means you're reading up on things.
This one's an easy answer.
Nope. Not at all.
Day players are only on the field during the daylight hours. We try to be very clear cut on distinctions and this one is absolute.
You get a lot out of being a day player but night stuff isn't part of it. Once you start doing 24 hour operations, you start needing a lot more gear, a lot more time commitment just to complete the mission etc. We've got the day player option there particularly for guys who want to participate but cannot get all the gear required or just cannot make the time commitment. It's pretty much extending past 8hrs continuous in the field where you really start to pay the piper if you do not have a bunch of gear so that's why we draw that line.
You'll find in dealing with East Wind that we are fair, nice, and informative but not in the least bit flexible on rules and requirements. We do this to keep the event true to what our vision of the event is. Trust me, that's a good thing.
Might know something...
Posts: 132
Re: East Wind III Day Player Info
Reply #7 on:
December 14, 2010, 10:45:44 pm »
That sums it up. Makes sense. I may go out next year for a day or two then.
Quote from: Coop on June 09, 2011, 05:55:31 am
Bullet holes are milsim.
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