text:
BYU football: Cougars must secure their own bowl game alliances in the world of independence
DeepBlue Anaheim, CAJune 20, 2013 4:00 p.m.
Spokane Ute
Remind us again who Utah beat in 2004 to become the first "BCS buster":
Let me refresh your memory on the THREE teams with winning records that the Utes beat during the regular season that made Utah a "BCS worthy" team:
Texas A&M(7-5)
New Mexico(7-5)
Texas A&M, btw, was CRUSHED by Tennessee 7-38 in the Cotton Bowl.
Spokane Ute Spokane, WAJune 20, 2013 3:54 p.m.
I remember the season well; I was two years out of Bingham High. Re-read my posts. I stated that they had no control over their opponents record; or their bowl opponent; unfotunately. They also opened the following season by beating Washington; who was #2 in '84 I believe. I wonder how they would have fared against one of the top 5 teams? We will never know. It sure would be nice to see the programs get back on the National stage. The last two years just haven't been that impressive. Neither is ranked in the pre-season top 25 either. I wonder how long it's been since that happened?
Now I'm really done; you have a good one Guy; thanks for the back and forth. Take Care!
Rockwell, Naval & Wisconsin Coug have a good one too.
Later Gents!
Rockwell Baltimore, MDJune 20, 2013 3:49 p.m.
Spokane Ute
Navel Vet "forgot" to mention that Utah didn't even win the 1994 WAC championship because the Utes LOST to New Mexico(5-7). It's funny how he always overlooks those little details.
BlueCoug Orem, UTJune 20, 2013 3:43 p.m.
Questionable calls in the BYU-Michigan game:
In the first quarter, the play was blown dead as BYU's Leon White stripped Michigan's running back and returned it for what would have been touchdown.
In the second quarter, referees ruled that a Michigan fumble recovered by Kyle Morrell was out of bounds. TV cameras clearly showed that the ball was still in bounds when it was recovered. Upset BYU players were flagged for unsportsmanlike conduct and Michigan went on to score a touchdown.
In the third quarter, Robbie Bosco threw a twenty-yard pass to David Mills that was ruled incomplete for touching the ground. However, replay clearly showed it was a catch. BYU was forced to attempt a long field goal which was then blocked.
BlueCoug Orem, UTJune 20, 2013 3:37 p.m.
Spokane Ute
I've never seen any BYU fan try to claim that BYU 1984 faced the most difficult schedule on the planet, but BYU had no control over the how their schedule played out.
BYU started the season on the road against the then #3-ranked Pitt Panthers.
Along the way, BYU beat Air Force(8-4) on the road, a team that finished #24 in the final AP poll.
BYU ended the season playing the winningest college football team in history.
BYU's 1984 offense wasn't quite as explosive as some of the teams lead by Wilson, McMahon, and Young, but what BYU lacked in offensive explosiveness, they more than made up for in grit and determination and a never-say-die attitude and refusal to lose.
Three goal line stands - against Pittsburgh, Air Force, and Hawaii - highlighted BYU's defensive determination, and BYU's ability to mount a comeback against a very good Michigan defense, despite a rash of turnovers and several questionable calls, and with a quarterback that could barely stand for most of the 2nd half, earned the respect of the national panels of sportswriters and coaches who selected BYU as the consensus national champion for 1984.
Spokane Ute Spokane, WAJune 20, 2013 3:37 p.m.
@ Rockwell
You have Utah in 3 or your top 6; I'm proud of you!
Spokane Ute Spokane, WAJune 20, 2013 3:36 p.m.
@Naval Vet
Good point, after all they did beat three ranked teams that year, and one is a bowl game. Then again in 84 BYU beat, um, em, never mind.
BYU's 1984 Season, is kind of like Bowling Green's this year. As long as you replace Florida St. in their bowl game with Minnesota. From a statistical and unbiased stand point; very similar and comporable.
Rockwell Baltimore, MDJune 20, 2013 3:15 p.m.
Best Seasons, based on rankings (which are the final measure of each season) and records
2) #2/#4 Utah(13-0) 2008
3) #4/#5 Utah(12-0) 2004
6) #10/#8 Utah(10-2) 1994
16) #18/#18 Utah(11-2) 2009
Duckhunter Highland, UTJune 20, 2013 3:12 p.m.
@spokane ute
"Never said which I would "rather have", now did I?"
Actually that is exactly what you said in slightly different words and are now trying to fudge out on. Let's review.
"I will take my Sugar Bowl trophy season over 1984 any day of the week."
We don't even need to go into your use of the phrase "my sugar bowl season" as if you had anything at all to do with it other than hopping on the bandwagon, let alone point out how absurd it is to think a 4th place finsish one year is even remotely comparable to an actual universally recognized (exempting utah "fans") National Championship season but I'll tell you what I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and take you at your word this time. You probably would rather finish 4th. Congratulations?
Naval Vet Philadelphia, PAJune 20, 2013 3:03 p.m.
Spokane Ute:
I'm pretty sure Utah's Top-10 1994 season -- where we beat 4 teams who finished in the Top-25 -- was a more impressive season than our little brother's '84 season.
Spokane Ute Spokane, WAJune 20, 2013 2:51 p.m.
Never said which I would "rather have", now did I? I just stated which season was the most impressive. That's looking at from the caliber of competition and the bowl opponent. I'm being honest; congrats on your NC.
I feel like I just went 10 rounds with Cosmo!
BlueCoug Orem, UTJune 20, 2013 2:16 p.m.
Spokane Ute
"I will take my Sugar Bowl trophy season over 1984 any day of the week. I don't think you are being honest if you feel BYU's season was more impressive."
There are two iconic trophies that symbolize major college football supremacy:
The AFCA Crystal Football National Championship trophy - the ultimate symbol of team success in college football
The Heisman Trophy - the most prestigious individual award in college football
No other team or individual trophy even comes close to matching the prestige of either.
BYU's Hall of Fame contains both.
Utah's Hall of Fame contains neither.
Anybody trying to claim that they'd rather have the Sugar Bowl trophy than the National Championship trophy is not being honest with themselves.
Spokane Ute Spokane, WAJune 20, 2013 1:47 p.m.
Best Season, based on stregth of schedule and bowl opponent:
1) Utah 2008
3) Utah 2004
5) Utah St. 2012.........almost
Spokane Ute Spokane, WAJune 20, 2013 1:34 p.m.
Wow, what a reaction. When someone honestly tells me that BYU's 1984 season was more impressive then Utah's 2008 team, there's no need to go on trying to be rational. There's no comparison. BYU's 1996 cotton bowl team was better then the 1984 team. Look at the numbers. in 1984 BYU won the NC by default. Was it their fault? Of course not, they played a weak schedule and beat an average team in a bowl game, but finished as the only undefeated, and #1 ranked team. I wish they would have had the opportunity to play a top team like Bama (2008); or even Kansas St.like BYU in 96. They could very well have won. So which of these teams were better? We will never know. 2011 & 2012 seasons? Yes, very close indeed. Statistically, BYU has a slight edge. Utah has score board. The 54-10 smack down in 2011 is hard to over look.
Wiscoug, Rockwell, & UFan, nice rationale posts. Always nice to back up your position with stats and facts. Macnasty, you are in here to pick a fight; good luck with that. Everyone have a good one; I need a drink 8-)
Ufan Salt Lake City, UTJune 20, 2013 12:43 p.m.
Spokane Ute
"Would you really prefer to play a weaker schedule, lose to Utah, yet be ranked (out of the top 25) higher than Utah?"
Fair question:
Utah(8-5) was unranked, #49 SOS. Utah had a huge turnover-aided win over BYU, but also suffered a humiliating loss at home to a 10-loss team that hadn't won a road game in over four years.
BYU(10-3) beat a much higher ranked team, #35 Tulsa, in the Armed Forces Bowl, than Utah beat in the Sun Bowl, #56 Georgia Tech. BYU finished #25 Coaches, #26 AP, #34 Sagarin, much better than not receiving a single vote in either poll and finishing #39 Sagarin.
Utah(5-7) finished unranked, #61 in Sagarin, #41 SOS, no bowl, 0-2 against Top 25 opponents, and barely beating BYU as Utah's only win against a winning team.
BYU(8-5) finished unranked, but #26 in Sagarin, #63 SOS, 1-4 versus Top 25 teams, but very competitive road losses against three Top 25 teams and BYU's fourth straight bowl win.
Despite a couple of disappointing losses to Utah, I prefer BYU's better overall success in 2011 and 2012.
Wiscougarfan River Falls, WIJune 20, 2013 12:39 p.m.
RE: Spokane Ute
"I will take my Sugar Bowl trophy season over 1984 any day of the week. I don't think you are being honest if you feel BYU's season was more impressive."
That is a fair point, and one I might agree with (that Utah's 2004 SEASON was more impressive than BYU's 1984 season). However, it is very debatable which of those two TEAMS were better. Remember that BYU was riding a 24 game winning streak at the conclusion of 1984 and had been ranked in the top 15 six of seven years from 1979-1985. I don't know how many players were drafted during that span but I bet it was more than a few. Given the dynasty they were in the early 1980s it is no wonder that they were named the CONSENSUS national champions in 1984, even in an era when nearly one third of all national champions have not been consensus. I don't mean to take anything away from Utah (2004, 2008), they were certainly dominant teams, I just don't think they were better than BYU's 1984 squad.
giantfan Farmington, UTJune 20, 2013 12:29 p.m.
Spokane Ute,
"I don't think you are being honest if you feel BYU's season was more impressive."
So let me get this straight: any BYU fan that thinks a 1984 national championship winning season is more impressive than Utah's 2008 #2/#4 season is being dishonest? That's quite a statement, and in the words of NV, quite "emotional and frantic". If you polled the entire College Football world, do you think they would agree with you? Doubtful. But, I realize that me saying so is just an opinion, as is your statement about not being honest.
Here is a fact for you (as in, NOT an opinion): There are two lists out there. The first is a list of programs that have won a consensus Division 1-A (FBS) football championship and the second is a list of those that have not. My opinion about that is a vast majority of people on the planet would consider being on list #1 far more impressive than being on list #2. Again, just my opinion.
MacNasty Rexburg, IDJune 20, 2013 12:10 p.m.
Re: Spokane Ute @ 11:51 am
"I will take my Sugar Bowl trophy season over 1984 any day of the week."
That is fine with me because Spokane Ute, that is all you have.
"I don't think you are being honest if you feel BYU's season was more impressive."
I am being totally honest. I don't have to spin it upward like you do your Sugar Bowl win. It was, is and will remain at the top. You are not being honest with yourself or anybody in pretending that a 2nd/4th place win is actually better than a National Championship.
"Actually I do own the hoodie, but something tells me you don't have anything from almost 30 years ago."
I take offense at that. In the words of Judy the elf in the movie The Santa Claus, I probably "have shoes older than you."
Rockwell Baltimore, MDJune 20, 2013 12:08 p.m.
Spokane Ute
"There are many factors that go into determining who's the better team. In Utah and BYU's case, BYU was ranked higher. Utah played a tougher schedule."
Despite your claims to the contrary, SOS is considered by the AP and Coaches poll voters. How else to you account for an undefeated team from the MAC or C-USA barely being ranked, while numerous 1- and 2-loss teams from the power conferences are ranked in the Top 10?
Your Sugar Bowl trophy is a great accomplishment, but NOTHING compares to a Crystal Football National Championship Trophy and the organization that awards that trophy, the American Football Coaches Association (AFCA) only ranked the Utes #4 in 2008, your greatest season ever. BYU's Cotton Bowl winning team of 1996 finished #5 in the Coaches poll.
Spokane Ute Spokane, WAJune 20, 2013 11:51 a.m.
Actually I do own the hoodie, but something tells me you don't have anything from almost 30 years ago. I will take my Sugar Bowl trophy season over 1984 any day of the week. I don't think you are being honest if you feel BYU's season was more impressive. To each his own. No need to be Nasty, just a differing opinion Guy. The fact of the matter is, BYU couldn't help who they played, the system was messed up. It's gotten better, and is going to get better.
You prefer to be renked slightly higher and lose to your bitter rival: equaling the better team.
I prefer to be ranked slightly lower and beat my bitter rival: equaling the better team.
It would be nice to do both. Anything out of the top 25 is pretty dissapointing to me anyway.
Fair Enough?
Question though, and be honest:
Would you really prefer to play a weaker schedule, lose to Utah, yet be ranked (out of the top 25) higher than Utah?
MacNasty Rexburg, IDJune 20, 2013 11:40 a.m.
Re: Spokane Ute @ 11:27 am
You were the one that knocked off the moth balls first. You asked and I responded.
BTW: BYU was ranked #1 going into the Holiday bowl and ranked consensus #1 going out. Those are the facts. You can go by BYU whenever and look at the national championship trophy; it is still very shiny and still very real.
Spokane Ute Spokane, WAJune 20, 2013 11:38 a.m.
@ Lonestar
I've been over and over this again. There are many factors that go into determining who's the better team. In Utah and BYU's case, BYU was ranked higher. Utah played a tougher schedule. Utah BEAT BYU on the field. In my opinion, yes Utah was the better team. It's not as if Utah's win was a huge upset (aka Colorado vs Utah, or UNLV vs Utah). As far as Alabama-Texas A@M goes, yes, in my opinion, Texas A&M was the better team. They went into Tuskaloosa (sp) and knocked off Bama. They finished ranked #5. Maybe you should get on a SEC thread and tell Texas A&M fans that Bama was better. I'm sure they would second my opinion. Same goes for Stanford-Oregon. It's a debate that has no clear winner, or right or wrong answer. You are entitled to your opinion, as I am. I doubt either one of us will convince the other. Let's agree to disagree. I'm fine with that and I totally under stand your view point. An iterensting debate none the less.
Spokane Ute Spokane, WAJune 20, 2013 11:27 a.m.
Yes, you must be so proud, knocking off a 6-6 Michigan team and not beating a single ranked team. Wha Hooo! Do you have to knock the moth balls off when you put it on? Just askin......
I've already stated that yes, 2012 was dissapointing, finishing one game from a bowl. Oh well, 9 out of 10 years isn't bad. I did enjoy watching the BYU-SDSU game; it was a good one.
Naval Vet Philadelphia, PAJune 20, 2013 11:24 a.m.
Riverton Cougar:
"Just because they're not in the Big 12 doesn't necessarily mean that the Big 12 didn't want them. I don't have a large screen TV, but that doesn't mean that I don't want one."
Actually, it DOES mean they weren't wanted. Don't forget that the Big 12 used to have 12 teams. Now there's 10. So it seems to me that there's 2 vacant spots in that league should THEY (the Big 12) decide to fill it.
Conference membership is a 2-way street. To be a member, the team must first be "invited". Once invited, the invitee must "want" to be a member, and "accept" the invitation. AFA (and our Indy-WACey little brother) WANT to be in the Big 12, so the only thing stopping them from joining is that they don't have an invitation.
And that's because the Big 12 doesn't WANT them.
Naval Vet Philadelphia, PAJune 20, 2013 11:17 a.m.
"You're going to discredit Bronco because the Beavers weren't ranked in the final AP/Coaches polls? Why were they not in those polls, Nav? Oh that would be because BYU pounded them in the bowl game."
It would have been because Oregon St. finished 8-5 that year. 8-5 teams don't get ranked.
LonestarRunner Salt Lake City, UTJune 20, 2013 11:16 a.m.
Spokane Ute
You've never explained why you think one head-to-head win in a 12+ game schedule proves which team is better.
Overall records and rankings are much better indicators. I can give you countless examples that disprove your head-to-head theory, but here are just a few.
#1 Alabama unanimously winning the 2012 national championship in both the AP and Coaches Polls despite losing at home to #5 Texas A&M.
#2 Oregon finishing way ahead of #6/#7 Stanford in both polls, despite losing at home to the Cardinal.
And, closer to home, NOBODY, not even you, would even consider claiming that UNLV(2-10) was better than Utah(9-4) in 2007 just because the Rebels shut out the Utes 0-27,
or that Colorado(3-10) was better than Utah(8-5) in 2011 just because the Buffs beat the Utes on their home turf.
The exact same logic applies to head-to-head vs overall season results when comparing BYU and Utah.
MacNasty Rexburg, IDJune 20, 2013 11:13 a.m.
Re: Phoenix and Duckhunter,
Please be kind to the Ute Trolls. They are doing the best spin they can to minimize BYU's national accomplishments, brand, and legacy. They realize that the meaningful facts are not on their side so they engage in meaningless comparisons and ad nauseum numbers crunching minutia.
All they have had is five good seasons in the last forty years and a couple of 2nd and 4th place finishes on a national basis. Other than that, there cupboard is bare.
Ya know, somebody should compile the list of BYU's accomplishments and put it in a file. Every time a Ute troll comes on a BYU article, just paste the file in the comment section as a response. It will drive them crazy.
MacNasty Rexburg, IDJune 20, 2013 10:58 a.m.
Re: Spokane Ute @ 7:27 am
Fine, you can wear your bride's maid hoodie. That was the year the Utes ranked #2 in the AP and #4 in the USA/Coaches poll. I was talking about watching the bowl season of 2012.
At any rate, I will wear my consensus National Championship sweater and you can wear yours...but wait, oh, sorry again.
Spokane Ute Spokane, WAJune 20, 2013 10:13 a.m.
True Blue
You may want to get your facts straight before attacking someone. I certainly don't consider my self arrogant in any way, shape,or form.
I'm glad you have calmed down, I thought you were going to blow a gasket for goodness sake. Not grasping as straws at all, I merely mentioned head to head games, which really hit a nerve with you; for some reason? Last year was certainly disapointing, and I'm hoping for better fortune next year. The last 10 years have been awesome, so you may want to find some one elses parade to rain on. It's not going to work with me. Also, it's awesome how you can predict the future; now that's quite a talent!
Cougsndawgs West Point , UTJune 20, 2013 9:51 a.m.
True blue:
That statement was made by Howie, who's a ute troll and homer. Spokane ute is actually more reasonable than that.
Cougsndawgs West Point , UTJune 20, 2013 9:49 a.m.
"Exclude WAC/MWC teams from your definition of quality wins. Beating Utah State with a winning record is not the same as beating Alabama with a winning record".
Your arrogance regarding BCS opponents is laughable. I guess Alabama should be even more upset that a midmajor Utah team that's done nothing since beating them, gave them such an embarrassing loss in the sugar bowl. You bag on Utah state, yet they lost on a last second field goal @ Wisconsin (B1G champion), and beat U (BCS pretender, but still BCS). I guess we should exclude our wins over Utah and TCU also because they were MWC. You sound like Oklahoma fans against Boise, like Alabama fans against Utah, etc. Your "BCS" arrogance doesn't make U a BCS quality team.
"What major conference teams with winning records has BYU beaten?"
Oregon, UCLA, Oklahoma, Oregon state, Washington, Georgia Tech...in the Mendenhall era. Do you want me to go further back? It gets better, lol. What's interesting is that many of the teams above that had winning regular seasons, are the exact programs Utah has been unable to beat (PAC12 teams with winning records).
phoenix Gilbert, AZJune 20, 2013 9:47 a.m.
Spokane Ute
You seem to be grasping at straws because its becoming painfully obvious that Utah isn't even in the same hemisphere with BYU when it comes to comparing accomplishments on a national scale.
Take a deep breath and just admit it, it's back to the future for U. Just like the 80's, Utah's bowl game has once again become BYU.
TrueBlue Orem, UTJune 20, 2013 9:32 a.m.
Spokane Ute
"Exclude WAC/MWC teams from your definition of quality wins. Beating Utah State with a winning record is not the same as beating Alabama with a winning record."
Beating Utah State is not the same as beating Alabama, but beating ANY Top 25 team is certainly MUCH better than beating ANY unranked PAC 12 team, especially one with a losing record.
Get over your BCS arrogance!
NOBODY except U is impressed with your wins against losing teams.
In fact, only beating Colorado(1-11) 42-35 is more of an embarrassment, than an accomplishment!
Spokane Ute Spokane, WAJune 20, 2013 9:30 a.m.
You seem to be getting upset with my simple question. You must own a black and white TV, I watched the last three games in HD. You seem to be rambling, and all over the map. Take a deep breath, it will be OK. I'm just some one with a differen't opinion who supports your rival.
Cougsndawgs West Point , UTJune 20, 2013 9:23 a.m.
Spokane Ute:
"Why not just cut to the chase and discuss Utah's record vs. BYU? What a concept!"
Because the discussion was about national relevance. No one outside the BYU/Utah fanbase cares what they did against each other. In the end they look at wins and rankings. No one cares what Alabama did against Auburn lately except their fanbase...the rest of the country only sees their number 1 ranking, national awards, and impressive record.
phoenix Gilbert, AZJune 20, 2013 9:21 a.m.
Spokane Ute
"Why not just cut to the chase and discuss Utah's record vs. BYU?"
Because on a national and overall accomplishments scale, Utah's record vs. BYU is IRRELEVANT!
U won a whole bunch of head-to-head games back in the days before color television, but Utah is a complete ZERO in national accomplishments before 1964, and a near complete ZERO in national accomplishments before 2004.
As much as it pains U to admit it, BYU has almost as many AP Top 25 finishes in the last seven years, as Utah has in its entire history.
It's laughable that fans of a program that's only managed FIVE AP Top 25 finishes in their entire history would be trying to prove their "superiority" over a program that has more than THREE times that number of AP Top 25 finishes.
The stark reality for U is this:
BYU: Ranked in AP Poll: 11 Times (Preseason), 17 Times (Final), 236 Weeks (Total)
Utah: Ranked in AP Poll: 2 Times (Preseason), 5 Times (Final), 77 Weeks (Total)
Get back to us when U reach double digits in AP Top 25 finishes.
It took U 119 seasons to reach FIVE!
What a concept!
Howard S. Taylorsville, UTJune 20, 2013 9:00 a.m.
Exclude WAC/MWC teams from your definition of quality wins. Beating Utah State with a winning record is not the same as beating Alabama with a winning record.
Your analysis is another example of BYU relying on its record against 2nd tier competition to justify its relevance.
What major conference teams with winning records has BYU beaten?
Spokane Ute Spokane, WAJune 20, 2013 8:40 a.m.
@ Phoenix
Why not just cut to the chase and discuss Utah's record vs. BYU?
What a concept!
TrueBlue Orem, UTJune 20, 2013 8:39 a.m.
After all of your posturing and spinning about SOS, quality wins, BCS opponents, rankings, and general excuse-making about why the Utes have been so pitiful in establishing their relevance through national rankings and overall record, the bottom line is this:
In wins versus FBS teams with winning records (quality wins) and losses versus teams with losing records (ugly losses):
Bronco: 22-4
Kyle: 22-6
Bronco has matched Kyle in quality wins, but is better than Kyle in avoiding ugly losses.
TWO of Kyle's losses were EXTREMELY ugly, as in losses to 10-loss teams.
phoenix Gilbert, AZJune 20, 2013 8:10 a.m.
"If the BCS label doesn't make them quality competition why does BYU lose to the BCS more often than they win?"
Obviously, you're still having a hard understanding that any opponent with a losing record cannot be defined as "quality" competition.
When you've figured that out, get back to me and we'll discuss BYU's record versus quality competition versus Utah's record versus non-quality competition (that is, teams with LOSING records).
Howard S. Taylorsville, UTJune 20, 2013 7:53 a.m.
Gilbert, AZ
"Simply attaching the BCS label to any team doesn't make them "quality" competition."
If the BCS label doesn't make them quality competition why does BYU lose to the BCS more often than they win?
Howard S. Taylorsville, UTJune 20, 2013 7:29 a.m.
Palo Alto, CA
Obsessing about SOS... not me...
All anyone needs to know about BYU's place in world of college football is that when they play teams from MWC/WAC and lower conferences they have an 80% winning percentage... when they play teams from BCS conferences they have a 46% winning percentage.
The "legacy" that BYU fans cling so desperately to is a "2nd tier legacy" based on 2nd tier competition... because it certainly isn't based on BYU's 46% record against teams from the 1st tier conferences.
Think of it this way... against 2nd tier competition BYU is the windshield... against 1st tier competition BYU is the bug.
And yet... Cougar Nation astoundingly believes that their 46% BCS record places them on equal footing with the elite teams who earn their success year in and year out against 1st tier teams from the strongest conferences in the country.
Spokane Ute Spokane, WAJune 20, 2013 7:27 a.m.
I will put on my Sugar Bowl Hoodie, you know the one with 13-0 on the back; and watch the 2009 Sugar Bowl. Remember that one? You know a BCS bowl, against a SEC Power House? Oh...that's right sorry.
phoenix Gilbert, AZJune 20, 2013 7:24 a.m.
"The point is that Cougars like to talk about these things because they can't justify the relevance of their team with on-field results against quality competition."
Can U?
Simply attaching the BCS label to any team doesn't make them "quality" competition. Having a winning record determines whether they're "quality" competition or not.
During Utah's best period EVER, quality wins against BCS teams with winning records (WW) barely outnumber embarrassing losses to any team with a losing record (LL) 9-7:
2003 1-1 WW = California(8-6); LL = Texas A&M(4-8)
2004 2-0 WW = Texas A&M(7-5), Pittsburgh(8-4)
2005 1-2 WW = Georgia Tech(7-5); LL = No Carolina(5-6), SDSU(5-7)
2006 0-1 WW = NONE; LL = New Mexico(6-7)
2008 2-0 WW = Oregon St(9-4), Alabama(12-2); LL = none
2009 1-0 WW = California(8-5); LL = none
2010 1-0 WW = Pittsburgh(8-5); LL = none
2011 1-2 WW = Georgia Tech(8-5); LL = ASU(6-7), Colorado(3-10)
2012 0-0 WW = NONE; LL = none
sammyg Springville, UTJune 19, 2013 11:15 p.m.
And let's not forget the fact that the Utes could not win enough games last year to make a bowl game despite all their talk about being so great.
And let's also not forget that Ute fans like to base their predictions of future PAC10.2 results based on past performance in a McWacish conferences while whining about SOS.
mussingaround Palo Alto, CAJune 19, 2013 10:48 p.m.
Howard S.
Since when does attaching a "bcs" label to any team automatically make that team good, bad or mediocre?
It's laughable that you obsess about "computer-generated" SOS, while completely ignoring the computer-generated rankings that are based on team records against said SOS.
Sagarin's computer-generated rankings during the Bronco/Kyle era, along with the "human" rankings and team records:
2005 unranked/#55 BYU(6-6) < unranked/#51 Utah(7-5)
2006 #16/#15/#19 BYU(11-2) > unranked/#54 Utah(8-5)
2007 #14/#15/#17 BYU(11-2) > unranked/#34 Utah(9-4)
2008 #25/#21/#32 BYU(10-3) < #2/#4/#5 Utah(13-0)
2009 #12/#12/#15 BYU(11-2) > #18/#18/#24 Utah(10-3)
2010 unranked/#45 BYU(7-6) < ur/#23/#26 Utah(10-3)
2011 ur/#25/#34 BYU(10-3) > unranked/#39 Utah(8-5)
2012 unranked/#26 BYU(8-5) > unranked/#61 Utah(5-7)
BYU better than Utah 5 of 8 seasons.
Unfortunately, the results disprove your theory that computer-generated rankings are "more accurate" because they consider SOS. As you can plainly see, there's not much difference. Humans also consider SOS when ranking teams.
Cougsndawgs West Point , UTJune 19, 2013 9:58 p.m.
And what's your definition of "getting-r-done" against the big boys Howie? 7-11 with no wins against conference teams with winning records, let alone being ranked? Watching A Christmas Story instead of a bowl game? Sitting outside any and all rankings for offense, defense, sports writers and computers? It would be one thing if Utah had even been close to the rankings but they weren't even top 50 in any poll or power ranking, so all your fussing about human error or writers and computers etc just comes off as whiney sour grapes.
It amazes me how some ute fans want to continue to belittle BYU for accomplishments the utes have never had, or make excuses like SOS for Utah's failure, while using it as a way to minimize BYUs accomplishments despite having the same SOS for nearly a century (jealous much?). WE "prefer to talk about things like SOS"? No, Howie, that's you, Nav vets, and AZUTEs standby excuse for every ute failure and BYU success. One only needs look back on all the posts from U three to see who is perseverating on SOS, and continually, nauseatingly bringing it up.
Howard S. Taylorsville, UTJune 19, 2013 8:55 p.m.
Re:Cougar Nation
SOS, rankings, sports writer opinions, and coulda-woulda-shoudas...
Cougars like to throw these things out as validation of their national relevance.
Consider this...
SOS? computer generated analysis is always accurate, right?
Polls? polls are based on votes of sports writers and secretaries of college coaches - both groups known for their accuracy, right?
Sports writer opinions? if writers could coach or play they would, instead they spout opinions for which there is no accountability.
Coulda-woulda-shoudas? talk to the hand.
The point is that Cougars like to talk about these things because they can't justify the relevance of their team with on-field results against quality competition.
Let's not be distracted from the fact the Cougars have a losing record against BCS teams (ranked and unranked) that Bronco has played... their record is great against 2nd tier competition, but when they play the big boys they lose more than they win.
So Cougars prefer to talk about things like SOS, rankings, preseason predictions, 3rd tier bowls, and coulda-woulda-shoudas... anything that distracts from the fact that when it comes to playing the big boys they can't get-r-done.
Cougsndawgs West Point , UTJune 19, 2013 8:45 p.m.
As long as we're talking Phil Steele lets look at some other facts:
BYUs power ranking would have placed them tied for 4th in the PAC12, while Utah's was 9th. BYU has the 12th rated WR unit in the country while Utah isn't ranked in the top 15 for any unit. As Wiscougar stated BYU has 8 preseason all independent 1st team players, 5 2nd team, and 1 3rd team...Utah 1st team all conference- none, 2nd team- 1, 3rd team- 1. Preseason Top 40- BYU #37, Utah NR.
Steele also does an interesting analysis of "strength of wins" and "quality losses". In strength of wins he analyzes a teams wins and then the number of wins those opponents had (giving only credit for opponent wins of teams you beat). BYUs Strength of Wins ranking was 49 (35 wins by opponents they had beat)...Utah's ranking was 86 (15).On the flip side, quality losses takes a teams losses and totals the number of losses the teams they lost to had. BYU ranked 35 (opponents lost 16 games), Utah ranked 79 (33).
It's no wonder NV, AZUTE, and Howie only want to talk SOS...for them what else is there?
mussingaround Palo Alto, CAJune 19, 2013 6:31 p.m.
You lost credibility by claiming that 10-3 or 11-2 wasn't within easy reach.
An errant snap scoop and score gift at Utah in a 3-point loss, a missed 2-point conversion because one player missed one block at Boise State in a 1-point loss, an errant pass to a wide open receiver with nothing but green grass in front of him at Notre Dame in a 3-point loss, and 3 incomplete passes from the 6-yard line in the fourth quarter at San Jose St in a 6-point loss were the difference between finishing 10-3 or 11-2, or 7-5.
Utah's SOS wasn't its problem. Utah's pathetic offense (109th in the country, unbelievably, worse than BYU's 58th ranked offense) was the reason Utah didn't win more than 5 games against a schedule that only included two ranked teams.
If you think you can make the same argument for Utah, go for it, but, just to warn you, you're going to look awfully foolish. The Utes didn't lose a single game by less than a touchdown.
MacNasty Rexburg, IDJune 19, 2013 6:16 p.m.
Re: Duckhunter @ 5:45 pm
One thing NV knows how to do is write "desperate" and "emotional"; he is a master at them both.
Duckhunter Highland, UTJune 19, 2013 5:45 p.m.
naval's back declaring himself victorious. It's a good thing the actual navy doesn't do that.
steeleute Sandy, UTJune 19, 2013 5:10 p.m.
And it was 4 of our losses, not five. Oregon State, Utah State, and UCLA
steeleute Sandy, UTJune 19, 2013 5:05 p.m.
You lost credibility at "BYU could have easily finished 10-3 or 11-2". You finished the regular season at 7-5 with an SOS in the mid seventies and this season you'll have an SOS around 25. I could make the same argument that if Utah had half of an offense last year they could have made a bowl game at 7-5 or 8-4 but I won't because I don't play the "if's and but's" game.
MacNasty Rexburg, IDJune 19, 2013 4:47 p.m.
Re: Spokane Ute @ 1:58 pm
Yeah, it was hitting the wrong key. I was in a hurry because I actually have a job and things to do. Pardon my slip.
Utah State was #22 in the BCS final rankings, BYU #55 and Utah #60.
Thanks for wishing me a great day. I think I will sit back and watch our 2012 bowl game; and you? Oh.....that's right, sorry.
mussingaround Palo Alto, CAJune 19, 2013 4:35 p.m.
Four of BYU's five losses last season were to Top 25 teams, including 3 road losses by a combined 10 points. With even a slightly improved offense, BYU could have easily finished 10-3 or 11-2.
Five of Utah's seven losses came against UNRANKED teams, including four double-digit losses. Utah wasn't even close to improving on a dismal season that ended with another embarrassing performance against another horrible Colorado team.
Riverton Cougar Riverton, UTJune 19, 2013 4:24 p.m.
Naval Vet,
So Air Force was wanted too. Just because they're not in the Big 12 doesn't necessarily mean that the Big 12 didn't want them. I don't have a large screen TV, but that doesn't mean that I don't want one.
Cougsndawgs West Point , UTJune 19, 2013 4:16 p.m.
Naval Vet:
First of all you're misrepresenting what I said. I never said I didn't think Phil Steele would have Utah's SOS much higher than BYUs for 2012 in his publication. I was using BCS rankings, which are the most accurate we have, to show that BYUs avg opponent was very close to Utah's, and that BYU still played 5 top 25 teams while Utah only played 2. I realize most publications are going to have Utah's SOS higher than BYUs because Utah's schedule is tougher top to bottom (which is exactly what I said). In the end Steele believed BYUs team to be better than Utah's in 2012 and predicts they'll be better in 2013...SOS is just part of the equation, except with you and Howie, and AZUTE who think it's the end-all.
"The "final polls" are the "AP" and the "USA Today", and Oregon St. did NOT finished ranked in those final polls".
Oh please. You're going to discredit Bronco because the Beavers weren't ranked in the final AP/Coaches polls? Why were they not in those polls, Nav? Oh that would be because BYU pounded them in the bowl game.
steeleute Sandy, UTJune 19, 2013 3:46 p.m.
So BYU for sure goes bowling this year and Utah doesn't. Interesting statement considering BYU went 7-5 last year with a much easier schedule than they have this year
Uteanymous Salt Lake City, UtahJune 19, 2013 3:38 p.m.
"Funny you never hear the Academy's fans making up dubiously unfounded claims to explain why they weren't invited."
The only thing "dubiously unfounded" about the claims is the blinding hatred you have for BYU that prevents you from seeing reality. The only thing keeping BYU out of the PAC 12 is the religious bigotry of a couple of member schools. The only thing keeping BYU out of the Big 12, is BYU's no Sunday play policy and minor disagreements concerning television rights.
The "research" university "requirement" was nothing but a smoke screen to give the PAC 12 cover for not wanting to invite a private, religious school. Baylor, Texas Tech, and Oklahoma State all have the same high research level classification.
One thing that's becoming very clear, however, is Utah wasn't invited to the PAC because of their "superior" athletic programs. As most fans expected, the Utes have finished near the bottom of the conference in every sport except women's gymnastics.
MUSSing with U Baltimore, MDJune 19, 2013 3:22 p.m.
navel vet
LOL at your SOS spin, while intentionally ignoring the REAL rankings:
2012 PACy-WACers #61
2011 PACy-WACers #39
When are the Utes going to open the SOS wing of their Athletic Hall of Fame...
Spokane Ute Spokane, WAJune 19, 2013 3:02 p.m.
@ Tomahawk Red
Correct and Thank You!
Y's little brother Sandy, UTJune 19, 2013 2:55 p.m.
What difference does having "bowl ties" make, if you're not even good enough to qualify for a bowl?
Teams like Indiana, Vanderbilt, Iowa State, Duke, and Washington State have the exact same types of "bowl ties", but when was the last time any of those teams played in a bowl that anybody except the bowl participants cared about?
Frankly, the vast majority of fans couldn't care less who's playing in the Alamo Bowl, or the Sun Bowl, or the Las Vegas Bowl, or the Poinsettia Bowl, or the Kraft Fight Hunger Bowl, or any bowl outside of the playoffs
it's their team.
Fans who actually attend bowl games, just want an interesting bowl venue and a competitive bowl opponent. Bowl payout is meaningless. Most teams LOSE money playing in a bowl.
Even the so-called "major" bowls will lose considerable prestige as soon as the playoffs begin, especially when the playoffs expand to 8 teams, which will only take a couple of years.
Naval Vet Philadelphia, PAJune 19, 2013 2:45 p.m.
Riverton Cougar:
"Can you honestly tell me that if BYU didn't have a no-Sunday policy and if BYU had no special request for broadcasting rights, that the Big-12 would have not invited BYU?"
No more than you could "honestly" tell me that they WOULD have. But based on what I've seen, the more plausible scenerio was that the Indy-WACers weren't selected because they weren't wanted. TCU and WVU were simply the better options.
"You must have a short term memory because the Big 12 did show interest in BYU. I know you will deny it because it debunks your claim that nobody wanted BYU, but you don't show interest in a team you don't want."
YOU must have a short term memory, because the Big 12 did show some interest in Air Force too. AFA has an ACTUAL "national fan base", higher academics than the Indy-WACers, and have no broadcasting rights issues.
And ultimately, they weren't wanted either.
Funny you never hear the Academy's fans making up dubiously unfounded claims to explain why they weren't invited. I guess they're all just too classy.
Naval Vet Philadelphia, PAJune 19, 2013 2:37 p.m.
"You, of course, ignored the message I posted...."
No I didn't. I called you out on it. You deliberately took my words out of context, and now you have to eat crow. Don't try to change the argument.
Tomahawk Red North Salt Lake, UTJune 19, 2013 2:16 p.m.
Hyrum, UT
I'd like to know if anyone has seen any articles concerning Utah going to a future bowl game... any bowl game at all, even lower tier? No... I didn't think so. Neither have I.
That's because we have our bowl ties taken care of for us. Utah doesn't have to do mad scrambles to snatch up bowl contracts like BYU does.
Yet another disadvantage of your precious independence.
Tomahawk Red North Salt Lake, UTJune 19, 2013 2:10 p.m.
River Falls, WI
RE: Spokane Ute
So your response to my earlier post is that BYU can't play in a bowl in San Antonio that Utah didn't make it to two years ago?
No, his point was simple. Utah missed the Alamo Bowl by four points... whereas even a 10-win BYU wouldn't have had the opportunity play in it.
Translation= Utah has access to bowls that BYU can't get into.
Riverton Cougar Riverton, UTJune 19, 2013 2:00 p.m.
"I did not such thing, you weren't undefeated in 2001."
You sure did. Here's the article you quoted:
"BCS denies Cougars; BYU headed to Liberty: A 12-0 record, top scoring offense proves not enough"
You misunderstood when I said undefeated Cougars. I mean to say that the Cougars were undefeated when the BCS denied them. Is 12-0 not undefeated?
Naval Vet,
Can you honestly tell me that if BYU didn't have a no-Sunday policy and if BYU had no special request for broadcasting rights, that the Big-12 would have not invited BYU? You must have a short term memory because the Big 12 did show interest in BYU. I know you will deny it because it debunks your claim that nobody wanted BYU, but you don't show interest in a team you don't want.
Spokane Ute Spokane, WAJune 19, 2013 1:58 p.m.
Utah State is worth more than $22.
Have a great day.
MacNasty Rexburg, IDJune 19, 2013 1:47 p.m.
Naval Vet,
Last 2012 and 2011 final BCS rankings INCLUDE SOS. It seems that you choose to ignore this fact.
Fact that your Utes ranked #60 and BYU ranked $55 is telling. Considering many factors, which SOS is one, BYU was a better team than Utah in 2012.
BTW: Utah State ranked $22. I give Utah State and recognize them as the best FBS team last year among the three even though BYU defeated them.
Utah is the little brother of BYU in terms of national recognition, national awards, legacy recognition, and national brand.
BYU's fanbase is twice that of Utah's. I don't think you can spin that or the final BCS rankings.
Have a great day.
Wiscougarfan River Falls, WIJune 19, 2013 1:46 p.m.
RE: Naval Vet
Fine, you win. Utah's SOS was higher than BYU's in both 2012 and 2013. I've never contested this fact because I don't think it's a big deal, BYU still has a great schedule lined up for this coming season.
You, of course, ignored the message I posted which reiterated that according to Phil Steele, who you deem as "entirely unbiased" and whose "publications have been consistently noted as the most accurate of all college football publications" that BYU finished last season ranked higher than Utah and begins 2013 again ranked higher than Utah. Now, I'll reiterate that it doesn't matter how unbiased or accurate one is, preseason hype is just that, hype. But you can't ignore his claim that BYU finished last season as a stronger team than the U (despite a lower SOS).
Naval Vet Philadelphia, PAJune 19, 2013 1:33 p.m.
"Although she/he will show up and try to somehow claim "victory" anyway. It isn't just that she/he has to convince all of us that she/he was "victorious", she/he obviously has to try to convince herself/himself as well. Funny stuff, as always."
Victory for me indeed. That excerpt from Wiscougarfan was a deliberately disingenous quoting of me taken out of context. Nobody said anything about "Power Ratings". Cougsndawgs and I were talking about SOS. And Phil Steele DID INDEED put a LOT more distance between our 2 programs than Cougsndawgs thought they would. Utah's 2012 SOS was ranked 27 spots ahaead of our little brother's, and our preseason 2013 SOS (at #12) is ranked ahead 37 spots!
Naval Vet Philadelphia, PAJune 19, 2013 1:23 p.m.
That quote you posted today at 10:22am was a desperate attempt to FINALLY prove me wrong. But sadly for you, it did NOT. The "desperate" part was your deliberately taking my words out of context. That was written in response to Cougsndawgs' insistence that "Utah played a good schedule last year but it wasn't much better than BYUs." Phil Steele's publication was due out on the magazine stands yesterday morning, but the rack I purchase my reading material didn't stock until after lunch today. Here's what it said...
2012 Utah SOS: #41
2012 Indy-WAC SOS: #68
Cougsndawgs insisted the distance between our 2 programs' SOS was 7.53. Phil Steele puts it somewhere around 27. HUGE difference there. I said, "Phil Steele will release his preseason magazine...he'll talk about the prior season, and give a final grade on SOS. There, you will find Utah's SOS much more difficult than yours...For both 2013 (preseason estimate) and 2012."
And I was right. Case closed.
P.S.: Phil Steele ranked the following preseason SOS for 2013...Utah = #12; Indy-WAC = #49.
So I was right AGAIN!
Naval Vet Philadelphia, PAJune 19, 2013 12:06 p.m.
Just the FAX:
"Simple logic says that team with better record and higher ranking is the better overall team."
And even MORE simple (and more accurate) logic says that the team who keeps putting more points on the scoreboard both 3 in a row, and 8 of the last 11 times is the better overall team.
Edge: Utah.
Naval Vet Philadelphia, PAJune 19, 2013 12:03 p.m.
"[mendenmidmajor] beat Oregon State who was ranked 18 in the final BCS polls of 2009."
That's a red herring. The final "BCS polls" are NOT the final polls. That poll is only designed to determine who gets into the Rose, Fiesta, Sugar, Orange, and Nat'l Championship bowl games. The "final polls" are the "AP" and the "USA Today", and Oregon St. did NOT finished ranked in those final polls. Ergo, mendenmidmajor did NOT beat any ranked BCS teams. Who did you think you were fooling with that spin job?
Wiscougarfan River Falls, WIJune 19, 2013 11:15 a.m.
RE: Spokane Ute
For once we definitely agree. Pre-season hype means nothing, I simply posted the last one because with Naval Vet's set-up it was too good to pass up. Cheers.
Duckhunter Highland, UTJune 19, 2013 11:04 a.m.
Although she/he will show up and try to somehow claim "victory" anyway. It isn't just that she/he has to convince all of us that she/he was "victorious", she/he obviously has to try to convince herself/himself as well. Funny stuff, as always.
Spokane Ute Spokane, WAJune 19, 2013 11:02 a.m.
Don't put too much stock in pre-season polls/predictions. That and 75 cents will get you a Desseret News, news paper. I found that out last year.
The season needs to start soon, everyone needs some new ammunition.
Howard S. Taylorsville, UTJune 19, 2013 10:51 a.m.
@anti BCS
Pollsters and sports writers are not the power brokers of modern era of college football. The BCS and the 5 power conferences rule in college football and they have shown little regard for the glorious polling legacy of BYU.
Cougar nation should be prepared to be satisfied with mid-major glory when the power 5 leave them behind.
Wiscougarfan River Falls, WIJune 19, 2013 10:22 a.m.
We may not hear from Naval Vet for a while, since he recently posted...
"I can see the trepidation in your last post. You're worried that Phil Steele will put more distance between our 2 programs. I think he will too. But here's the thing about Phil Steele:
(1) He's entirely unbiased. He's neither pro-Utah nor pro-IndyWAC.
(2) His publications have been consistently noted as the most accurate of all college football publications.
(3) There can be no cherry-picking of stats because neither you nor I have seen it since it hadn't yet been released."
What does this "unbiased" and "most accurate publication" say?
BYU preseason rank #37, 2 players on preseason all-america team, 8 first team all-independent (5 second team), final 2012 power rating of 141 (higher is better)
Utah preseason rank NR, ZERO players on preseason all-america team, ZERO first team all-PAC12 players (one on second team), final 2012 PR of 129.
He was right, Phil Steele has certainly put more distance between the two programs. Go Cougs!
anti BCS Anaheim, CAJune 19, 2013 10:01 a.m.
Howard S.
"People who cling desperately to an illusory legacy and who fear being left behind in a mid-major wasteland when the power conferences form a 1st tier division."
Nothing but jealous speculation from supporters of a program that's never even sniffed a legacy.
BYU has been a perennial Top 25 team since 1977, 18 of 36 seasons (50%), 5 of 8 during the Bronco/Kyle era (over 50%). The Utes have never been ranked in 50% of the polls in any decade in their history, and from the way things are going in the PAC, they never will - 0 for 2, with not a single vote in either final poll.
Duckhunter Highland, UTJune 19, 2013 9:51 a.m.
Is there anything funnier on these boards than naval's daily attempts to proclaim an internet victory? LOL!
naval I have told you this numerous times and maybe one of these times you'll actually get it. If you have to declare yourself the victor, in otherwords if you have to lamely try to convince everyone else that you somehow "won" an internet argument, then the reality is you did not.
Howard S. Taylorsville, UTJune 19, 2013 8:58 a.m.
There certainly are a lot of nervous people here.
People who cling desperately to an illusory legacy and who fear being left behind in a mid-major wasteland when the power conferences form a 1st tier division.
WON84 PLANO, TXJune 19, 2013 8:23 a.m.
"The irony is, I LIKE Utah, the football team anyway. And I've grown rather fond of you, Spokane Ute, and I REALLY do hope Utah does better than I fear they will this year."
Most of Spokane's posts indicate he doesn't feel threatened by the presence of BYU. But, the rest of the Ute fans that visit these boards...well, they're usually first to comment on articles related to BYU and author at least half (if not more) of the comments which follow. I really think their biggest fear is BYU becoming BYU of old. I don't know why it matters when they're no longer in the same conference and for the most part, recruits that are going to BYU are going to BYU. But, there are a lot of nervous people here.
Howard S. Taylorsville, UTJune 18, 2013 11:07 p.m.
West Point , UT
"rankings will always hold more weight, especially from a national perspective"
No... rankings do not hold more weight... if rankings held the weight you think they do BYU would not be facing the very real peril of being left behind in a mid-major wasteland when the 5 power conferences form an elite division.
But hey... BYU can always retain its status as king to the mid-majors... well except for Boise.
Cougsndawgs West Point , UTJune 18, 2013 9:11 p.m.
Thanks for understanding lol. In the end I was simply trying to point out that how our respective programs do in terms of post season, wins, and rankings will always hold more weight, especially from a national perspective, than what they do against one another. I also agree that getting to a bowl game is going to be much tougher for both schools this year. Good luck to the utes. Cheers.
Y Grad / Y Dad Richland, WAJune 18, 2013 8:54 p.m.
Spokane Ute
Spokane, WA
Amen, but I really don't spend time on Utah articles unless a) there is absolutely, positively nothing going on with BYU football; or b) the Utes have done something truly worthy of congratulations.
Anyway, keep your best Utah shirt ready, I'll do the same with my favorite BYU shirt (quest or something) and maybe someday we'll meet in a fine dining establishment in Spokane and make all the zags wonder just what I the heck that's all about.
Spokane Ute Spokane, WAJune 18, 2013 5:26 p.m.
Y Grad/Y Dad,
I do, but I've come to notice that the same trolls (both sides, and you know who you are) dole out the same drivel over, and over, and over....I also think many post under several names.
Both BYU and Utah have brutal schedules, so getting to a bowl will be tougher than in the past. When I step away from the blog and haters; I too hope BYU does well this year. I know a lot of great BYU fans, in person. It's unfortunate that BYU doesn't have more bowl options, but that's the way it goes as an independent. Any how, Thanks for your kind words and I look forward to mixing it up with you in the future. Its certainly refreshing dialogue for a change. Take care and have a good Guy!
CordonBleu Park City, UTJune 18, 2013 4:09 p.m.
Just the FAX
It's a waste of time trying to use logic with some blogger; they're so blinded by their personal biases, that they immediately reject any logic that refutes their distorted view of reality.
Y Grad / Y Dad Richland, WAJune 18, 2013 4:08 p.m.
Spokane Ute
Spokane, WA
Similar to the way ute fans totally write off the possibility of a big boy bowl for BYU. Granted, I'm not betting the farm on it, but if I was betting the farm on anything it would be this:
I like BYU's chances of going to a bowl this year more than I like Utah's.
The irony is, I LIKE Utah, the football team anyway. And I've grown rather fond of you, Spokane Ute, and I REALLY do hope Utah does better than I fear they will this year.
But this is a BYU article. I can deal with reasoned discussion from the loyal opposition, and I think Mildred and Earnest can be funny, if not over done a little. But I get so tired of viscous gnashing of teeth trying to be passed off as clever smack.
Don't you, brother?
Just the FAX Olympus Cove, UtahJune 18, 2013 3:47 p.m.
spokane ute
Simple logic says that team with better record and higher ranking is the better overall team.
#1/#1 Alabama(13-1) better than #5/#5 Texas A&M(11-2)
#2/#2 Oregon(12-1) better than #7/#6 Stanford(12-2)
Utah(8-5) better than Colorado(3-10)
Utah(8-5) better than UNLV(2-10)
#25/#26/#34 BYU(10-3) better than unranked/#39 Utah(8-5)
unranked/#26 BYU(8-5) bowl winner better than unranked/#61 Utah(5-7) bowl no show
That's just the way it is in the real world.
Spokane Ute Spokane, WAJune 18, 2013 3:09 p.m.
Honest mistake; I spoke too soon. This subject has grown old and tiresome. My take? BYU's independence is great for scheduling, not so great for post season. Both Utah and BYU have very tough schedules this year. I'm hopeful Utah improves on last year, I will be pulling for them, but wouldn't guarantee anything. Peace, have a good one!
Spokane Ute Spokane, WAJune 18, 2013 2:36 p.m.
Soooo Boston College is to Notre Dame, what Utah is to BYU? Yet Utah has beat BYU 4 out of the last 5 games, and Notre Dame has beaten Boston College 4 out of the last 5 games. You may want to try another angle; that one is severly flawed! Or simply flip flop BYU and Utah; in your logic/debate; now that would make more sense!
Spokane Ute Spokane, WAJune 18, 2013 2:25 p.m.
Actually, BC is 4-4 over the last 10 years; they didn't play in 2005 & 2006. Over the last 12 years; they are 6-4. So BYU isn't concerned about losing to Utah because they think they were the better team? Really? What in the world makes you think Notre Dame wasn't concerned about losing to their rivals 6 times in a row? Now I've heard it all! That's pretty cool knowing what the Notre Dame and BYU football programs think! What a talent.
Cougsndawgs West Point , UTJune 18, 2013 2:11 p.m.
LOL! I'm really having a bad day. I shouldn't post while I'm at work. I was going between schedules between ND and BC and it's actually the other way around. BC had better records and was ranked higher than ND 5 out of those 6 years in a row...so apparently there is no point, and I'm just going to quit posting when I'm working...lol, I've even confused myself.
kaysvillecougar KAYSVILLE, UTJune 18, 2013 2:09 p.m.
Watch out. Naval vet is going to make sure nobody gets too "emotional." Yet he will capitalize and place exclamation points and degrade and demean and write phrases like, "end of story!" I echo the comments from a previous poster. You make occasional good points but they are blurred by your hatred toward your church school. Go figure.
Rockwell Baltimore, MDJune 18, 2013 2:07 p.m.
Bronco was also reportedly pursued/interviewed by Colorado, Arizona State, and UCLA before he withdrew his name from consideration.
Other teams pursuing Kyle still doesn't change the fact that Bronco has out-performed Kyle 5 of the 8 years they've been head coaches; that Bronco has a better record and that Bronco has more Top 25 Finishes
AP Top 25 Finishes
Bronco 4
Kyle 2
AP Top 15 Finishes
Bronco 3
Kyle 1
Top 25 Finishes AP or Coaches
Bronco 5
Kyle 3
Conference Championships
Bronco 2
Kyle 1
Overall Record
Bronco 74-29
Kyle 70-32
Bowl Games
Bronco 8
Kyle 7
And, while Utah fans pretend that only the winning side of the ledger counts, let's not forget:
Losses to 10-loss Teams
Bronco 0
Kyle 2
Losses to conference bottom dwellers:
Bronco 0
Kyle 6 (Colorado, New Mexico(2), Wyoming, Colorado State, UNLV)
Losing Seasons
Bronco 0
Kyle 1
kaysvillecougar KAYSVILLE, UTJune 18, 2013 1:59 p.m.
Utah fans,
Thanks for your fascination with everything BYU, especially your temper tantrum like anger about BYU leaving the MWC for independence.
Cougsndawgs West Point , UTJune 18, 2013 1:44 p.m.
Spokane Ute:
Over the last 10 years BC is 6-4 against ND, but won those 6 games 6 years in a row. 5 out of those 6 years the Irish ended the season ranked higher and with a better record than BC. The point is ND wasn't concerned about losing those 6 in a row because they were the better team the majority of the time. Also those 4 in a row that the Irish have recently won were close games except the 31-13 win ND had.
Cougsndawgs West Point , UTJune 18, 2013 1:32 p.m.
Naval Vet:
Do you feel better now? I find it humorous how much you call everyone else emotional, yet you seem to be the most emotional person on here...it's entertaining though, so don't stop posting.
Uteology East Salt Lake City, UtahJune 18, 2013 1:12 p.m.
Final BCS ranking don't take into account bowl games. So what's your point?
Unlike Boston College, Utah was ranked a top 10 program the last decade by CBS Sports. I guess that's what happens when you finish ranked 6 times (with two top four finishes).
Cougsndawgs West Point , UTJune 18, 2013 1:07 p.m.
You feel better now? Lol. Breath, don't hyperventilate.
Spokane Ute Spokane, WAJune 18, 2013 1:04 p.m.
Notre Dame has 4 in a row vs. Boston College, and 4 out 5 since 2005. They are 4-4 vs. each other over the last 10 years. Not sure how that equals "getting owned"?
Naval Vet Philadelphia, PAJune 18, 2013 12:56 p.m.
"See what happens when you post before you read?...now who's embarrassed?"
As for myself, I DID notice that you had backpedalled a bit with Howard, but I hadn't read your recantment at the time I responded. That said, there was nothing inaccurate about my post, whereas yours was a frantic and emotional, grossly overstated, and utterly inaccurate statement, so don't go and try to turn this around on me. I was "right". You were "wrong". Ergo, YOU are the embarrassed one who's having some difficulty in getting the taste of his own foot out of his mouth.
Uteology East Salt Lake City, UtahJune 18, 2013 12:53 p.m.
@Rockwell: "Kyle had a great year in 2008, but has done precious little before or since."
I guess these teams disagree with your analysis:
"Utah's Whittingham reportedly was offered Tennessee job" -- USA Today
"Utah football: Whittingham on Miami's target list" -- SL Trib
"ASU Coaching Search Stalls: Kyle Whittingham To Stay In Utah" -- Seth Pollack (SB Nation)
Cougsndawgs West Point , UTJune 18, 2013 12:35 p.m.
I'm sure that ND also notices the trend with Boston College having owned them over the last decade. However, as long as ND is going to championships and ending seasons ranked while BC is not, why should they care? No difference between BYU and Utah. Grats to Utah for beating BYU lately, but "Cougar Nation" is more concerned with the overall performance of their program. This is just another example of how it's really BYU fans that have "moved on" and give much less regard to Utah than the other way around.
Cougsndawgs West Point , UTJune 18, 2013 11:55 a.m.
@Nav Vet
"So essentially, Whittingham trumps mendenmidmajor both in "quantity" of wins, and in "winning rate/percentage". Do you see what happens when you start getting all frantic and emotional again? You get embarrassed."
Please see my post to Howie before this post of yours. I was counting ranked opponents, not BCS opponents, and apologized for the error. I was also counting wins against ranked opponents at the time of the game which I indicated. See what happens when you post before you read?...now who's embarrassed?
"Bronco has beaten 0 BCS opponents ranked in the final polls. While I disagree with your count of records against BCS opponents... the point stands that Whit has a winning record against BSC teams and Bronco has a losing record".
Correction, he beat Oregon State who was ranked 18 in the final BCS polls of 2009. While we're at it the only BCS team ranked in the final BCS poll that Whit beat was Alabama.
I also didn't include Louisville or Pitt as BCS opponents on Utah's schedule (an oversight on my part which exposes my bias against the big least ever truly being a BCS conference...again my mistake).
Spokane Ute Spokane, WAJune 18, 2013 11:42 a.m.
Y Grad
You act as if going to a bowl game is a given. You may want to take a look at your schedule before popping off. Six wins is far from a gimmie; especially the way both Utah and BYU played last year; and especially considering this years schedule(s).
Howard S. Taylorsville, UTJune 18, 2013 11:41 a.m.
Speaking of trends....
I find it amusing that Cougar Nation sees an irreversable trend in one missed bowl game for the Utes....
Yet, they see no trend at all in having lost three in a row and eight of the last eleven to Utah.
Spokane Ute Spokane, WAJune 18, 2013 11:36 a.m.
@ Rockwell
The numbers are very similar. I noticed you left out the head to head comparison. I'm sure it's just an oversight.
@ Y Grad
No kidding, I mean Utah has only been to a 9 of the last 10 years.
ekute Layton, UTJune 18, 2013 11:28 a.m.
We Might beat Utah in football, We Might beat Utah in football. lol.
The Big 10 Might call, The big 10 Might call. lol.
Independence wasn't a Mistake, Independence wasn't a Mistake. lol.
Go Utes!
VegasUte Las Vegas, NVJune 18, 2013 11:28 a.m.
I love you Mildred!!
Y Grad / Y Dad Richland, WAJune 18, 2013 11:06 a.m.
West of I15, UT
To borrow a phrase from my Utah friends (yes, I have many), "what have you done lately?"
Take your smack and go sit in a corner. Keep repeating to yourself, "we MIGHT go to a bowl game, we MIGHT go to a bowl game."
Sometime before 2020.
STuFOO Korea, AEJune 18, 2013 11:05 a.m.
u fans...
explain to me your logic...
what do you gain by arguing with BYU fans that you are superior?
If you win...
You are still nobody in your conference. You are still irrelevant in the national football scene. You are still an after thought to EVERYONE outside of SLC.
If you lose...
You are still nobody in your conference. You are still irrelevant in the national football scene. You are still an after thought to EVERYONE outside of SLC.
AND a lesser program than BYU.
So it is obviously worth your time to argue.
AZUTE1 Mesa, AZJune 18, 2013 11:01 a.m.
Furthermore, both UTAH/byu have reached 11 bowl games during this current BCS Era. We all know about what UTAH's accomplished twice, something byu hasn't ever even remotely sniffed, ever, but here's another glaring reality relative to bowl games--
UTAH is 10-1, while byu has struggled to keep their collective-head above .500 at 6-5.
Why they bring up our 1st missed bowl game since '02, by 1 game no less, is utterly mind-boggling, to say the very least. As if constituted a trend or something and as if it magically caused their utter futility in bowl games by comparison to disappear or something.
Not to mention our head-to-head results. LOL
Rockwell Baltimore, MDJune 18, 2013 10:14 a.m.
re: spokaneute: Yes, I stand corrected. They did beat FOUR top 25 teams that year though, and you didn't "burst my bcs-fascination bubble".
Kyle had a great year in 2008, but has done precious little before or since.
Bronco has finished with a better record and higher ranking in 5 of the last 8 seasons, including 3 of the 4 seasons since 2008.
2005 unranked/#55 Bronco(6-6) < unranked/#51 Kyle(7-5)
2006 #16/#15/#19 Bronco(11-2) > unranked/#54 Kyle(8-5)
2007 #14/#15/#17 Bronco(11-2) > unranked/#34 Kyle(9-4)
2008 #25/#21/#32 Bronco(10-3) < #2/#4/#5 Kyle(13-0)
2009 #12/#12/#15 Bronco(11-2) > #18/#18/#24(10-3)
2010 unranked/#45 Bronco(7-6) < ur/#23/#26 Kyle(10-3)
2011 ur/#25/#34 Bronco(10-3) > unranked/#39 Kyle(8-5)
2012 unranked/#26 Bronco(8-5) > unranked/#61 Kyle(5-7)
Bronco 74-29, FIVE Top 25 Finishes, TWO MWC championships
Kyle 70-32, THREE Top 25 Finishes, ONE MWC championship
The records and rankings speak for themselves.
Don't bother with whiny SOS spin; it's already considered in the rankings.
Spokane Ute Spokane, WAJune 18, 2013 9:26 a.m.
Yes, I stand corrected. They did beat FOUR top 25 teams that year though, and you didn't "burst my bcs-fascination bubble". How has Kyle done vs. Bronco Mr. Helper? Why so bitter? Amazing how defensive and nasty people get. The fact of the matter is than neither Utah or BYU have done much lately.
Naval Vet Philadelphia, PAJune 18, 2013 9:26 a.m.
Riverton Cougar:
CORRECTION....The Big 12 never "rejected" the Y's demands because there was NO offer. So said Holmoe.
Uteology East Salt Lake City, UtahJune 18, 2013 9:26 a.m.
@UoU 1991
BEING at Top 25 team, however, is far more important than merely beating a Top 25 team.
Apparently not in Provo:
"People danced in the streets. They hugged perfect strangers. They lit off fireworks.
And in general, they celebrated and celebrated and celebrated... In the wake of BYU's stunning 14-13 upset over No. 3 Oklahoma, spontaneous celebrations erupted throughout this city and lasted well into the early hours of the morning on Sunday." -- Deseret News (2009)
Please tell us when was the last time you celebrated a top 25 finish in the streets of Provo.
Uteology East Salt Lake City, UtahJune 18, 2013 9:16 a.m.
USC was up 24-21 at the end of 3rd @RES. They won only because of Mark Barkley.
Against Georgia Tech Markely was injured and their freshman QB lost 21-7. Wittek threw for 107 yards, Nelson 208 and I think Barkley is a better QB so maybe 300+?
@Riverton Cougar: Uteology brought up that an undefeated 2001 BYU team was denied a BCS bowl...Utah fans should thank BYU for being part of the groundbreaking that lead to a Utah 2004 BCS bowl game.
I did not such thing, you weren't undefeated in 2001. Utah fans are thankful to Hawaii for exposing the 2001 BYU team as a BCS-busting fraud.
The only groundbreaking BYU did was getting rolled-into-the-ground by Utah as we made history TWICE.
2BCSWINS West of I15, UTJune 18, 2013 9:13 a.m.
@my two dad's....."You want to talk 3 in a row, 4 of the last 5 (6)? Go ahead! Can't stop ya. But Utah has NOTHING, when it comes to bowl smack. Go scheme and dream that MAYBE you'll join us in the Kraft Mac&Cheese bowl. If you catch several lucky breaks."
Really?...Utah 2 BCS bowl win's cougies 0....Utah 13-4 overall in bowl games Cougies 13-17-1 overall in bowl games.....Utah same amount of bowl win's while playing 14 less games. As you can see the winning % in bowl games is laughable how much better utah is. Utah also has beat the highest ranked team either has played in a bowl game.
Don't start bowl smack talk Utah's bowl history is miles ahead of what the cougies have done.
Naval Vet Philadelphia, PAJune 18, 2013 9:13 a.m.
Riverton Cougar:
"BYU haters here are saying that all major conferences rejected BYU. That is not necessarily true; they have rejected aspects of BYU which don't have to do with football. For the PAC, they rejected their religion. The Big 12 rejected their demands for broadcasting rights...BYU haters don't listen to reason and will continue to say that BYU is 'unwanted', when they obviously weren't."
No, the reason why the Indy-WACers weren't invited was because they WERE "unwanted". The Big 12 never "rejected" the Y's demands because there WAS an offer. So said Holmoe. Utah is full of the same religion the Y is, and that never kept US out of the Pac-12. "Religion" is just the sour-grapped frantic and emotional "excuse" that never was grounded in anything factual. Everybody knew the Pac-10 liked Tier-1 Research institutions, and everybody knew that the Y was NOT one of those. You weren't qualified. End of story.
Marked it Down Park City, UTJune 18, 2013 9:10 a.m.
Naval Vet
With all of that winning against "bcs" and "ranked" teams, how is it that Whittingham has been so inept at actually finishing in the Top 25?
Could it be that his big wins have been neutralized by big losses to unranked teams and teams with losing records like 10-loss UNLV and 10-loss Colorado?
LOL at the frantic and emotional spin to try to paint finishing UNRANKED as an accomplishment!
Naval Vet Philadelphia, PAJune 18, 2013 9:07 a.m.
Riverton Cougar:
"Utah fans should thank BYU for being part of the groundbreaking that lead to a Utah 2004 BCS bowl game."
The only thing we need to thank our Indy-WACey little brother for leading the Utes into the 2004 (and 2008) BCS bowl was "thank you for rolling over for us to complete our undefeated season(s)".
You Y fans need to do your research. You guys didn't pave any road for us. From the beginning of the BCS system, non-AQs were eligible for a guaranteed bid if they finished in the Top-6 of the Final BCS poll. Tulane ('98), Marshall ('99), and Miami [OH] ('03) did not finish high enough. Utah did. The relaxed standard wasn't put into effect until 2006...the year Boise St. busted the BCS. Boise St. did not obtain a Top-6 ranking, but as the standard dropped to Top-12, they were able to get into the Fiesta Bowl.
Utah and TCU were the only BCS busters to have gotten in without needing the relaxed standards. So stop trying to take any credit for us. We don't owe you any thanks.
UoU 1991 Park City, UTJune 18, 2013 9:03 a.m.
Spokane Ute
"Actually Whit beat 3 BCS teams in the final USA Today poll in one season (2008-2009): Alabama #6, TCU #7 and Oregon State #19 (and BYU #21)."
Was TCU also a member of the Southwest Conference in 2008?
Sorry to burst your bcs-fascination bubble, but TCU wasn't a bcs team in 2008.
Utah had ONE good year, in 2008, beating several Top 25 teams. Other than that one break-through year, however, Kyle is 2-10 versus Top 25 teams.
BEING at Top 25 team, however, is far more important than merely beating a Top 25 team.
Bronco has FIVE Top 25 finishes; Kyle only has THREE.
Naval Vet Philadelphia, PAJune 18, 2013 8:39 a.m.
"Bronco has a better record against BCS and ranked opponents than Kyle W"
No he doesn't. Since 2005, mendenmidmajor is 12-14 (.462) vs. BCS schools, and 3-15 (.167) vs. teams that finished ranked in the final AP poll. Over that same period of time, Whittingham had gone 21-16 (.568) vs. BCS schools, and 6-13 (.316) vs. teams finishing ranked in the final AP Poll.
So essentially, Whittingham trumps mendenmidmajor both in "quantity" of wins, and in "winning rate/percentage".
Edge: Whittingham.
Do you see what happens when you start getting all frantic and emotional again? You get embarrassed.
Spokane Ute Spokane, WAJune 18, 2013 7:59 a.m.
Actually Whit beat 3 BCS teams in the final USA Today poll in one season (2008-2009): Alabama #6, TCU #7 and Oregon State #19 (and BYU #21).
BYU's independence gives them flexibility in scheduling; and that's a good thing. They have put together a solid schedule this year. Their independence gives them no flexibility in post season: to me, that's a bad thing. It seems like the majority of the BYU fans are content being locked into the Vegas or Kraft Fight Hunger Bowl. To each his own.
Naval Vet Philadelphia, PAJune 18, 2013 7:54 a.m.
"What would OU have done with Sam Bradford the rest of the year."
They most likely would have maintained (or expanded) the lead, and won the game. Duh!
Y Grad / Y Dad Richland, WAJune 18, 2013 7:54 a.m.
The Deuce
Livermore, CA
"I have a unique idea for the Cougars: Win and you will have a choice of bowl games. Keep on the same path as last year and we will be talking about this same topic next year. Take a page out of the Boise State play book - win!"
Exquisitely good comment, especially as illustrated by the fact that if you don't win,
Howard S. Taylorsville, UTJune 18, 2013 7:14 a.m.
West Point , UT
Let's not confuse the issue of ranked opponents by including those ranked at the time of the game.
Only opponents ranked in the final polls have proven themselves to be worthy opponents.
Bronco has beaten 0 BCS opponents ranked in the final polls.
Whit has beaten 2 BCS opponents ranked in the final polls.
While I disagree with your count of records against BCS opponents... the point stands that Whit has a winning record against BSC teams and Bronco has a losing record.
Riverton Cougar Riverton, UTJune 18, 2013 7:09 a.m.
Let's get some things set straight.
Uteology brought up that an undefeated 2001 BYU team was denied a BCS bowl. As we can see in the history of the BCS, it took a few undefeated teams before they finally accepted an undefeated non-BCS team. It is said that people say "No" a few times before they say "Yes". Utah fans should thank BYU for being part of the groundbreaking that lead to a Utah 2004 BCS bowl game.
Also, BYU haters here are saying that all major conferences rejected BYU. That is not necessarily true; they have rejected aspects of BYU which don't have to do with football. For the PAC, they rejected their religion. The Big 12 rejected their demands for broadcasting rights. Note that there was interest in BYU, but the conferences didn't see BYU as a perfect fit for them. Of course, BYU haters don't listen to reason and will continue to say that BYU is "unwanted", when they obviously weren't.
Cougsndawgs West Point , UTJune 18, 2013 2:06 a.m.
Because I can own up to mistakes when I make them, I will apologize and tell you that I realized Bronco does not have a better percentage than Kyle W against BCS opponents but it's still very close. KW is 16-15 against BCS opponents, while Bronco is 11-12. I was focused on ranked opponents when I made the above statement, and Bronco does have a better winning percentage against ranked opponents than Whit (36% to 28%). My apologies.
Howard S. Taylorsville, UTJune 17, 2013 11:37 p.m.
Anaheim, CA
Yeah... San Diego State was a real powerhouse... keep telling yourself that... you may start believing it.
But it's like I said BYU does great against the WAC/MWC, but when they face the BCS big boys they have a losing record... like 46%.
Oh, you never answered how BYU will maintain its illusion of relevance when the five power conferences inevitably leave BYU and the mid-majors behind...
Beck to Harline Provo, UTJune 17, 2013 11:30 p.m.
If only the DNews could disable comments until a year after an article is written. Maybe then all this pathetic bickering wouldn't exist..
Utah knew the first few years in the PAC would be rough. BYU knew that the first few years of independence would be (contingently) filled with WAC opponents.
Everyone shut your PC/Mac down and wait until the dust settles. Both sides have their respective Pitt's ('84 and '04)/Michigan's (once again, '84 and '08)/Oklahoma's that seem like quality BCS-title contenders before the season ends.
Hindsight is 20/20.
Foresight is well......apparently perfect.
Howard S. Taylorsville, UTJune 17, 2013 11:29 p.m.
LaMont is a true visonary.
Howard S. Taylorsville, UTJune 17, 2013 11:28 p.m.
West Point , UT
Bronco has a better record against BCS and ranked opponents?
Uhhh Nooooo.... Making up your own facts again?
In 36 games against BCS opponents Whit has a 56% record with two victories against teams ranked in the final polls.
In 26 games against BCS opponents Bronco has a 46% record with no victories against teams ranked in the final polls.
The amusing thing is that with a losing record against the BCS the Cougar Nation thinks that the Cougars will sail through a schedule with six BCS games like it was the typical WAC heavy schedule.
If history holds BYU will lose 3-4 of the BCS games plus Boise and then have to struggle against Utah St. Houston, and Nevada just to qualify for a 3rd tier bowl game.
skywalker Palo Alto, CAJune 17, 2013 11:13 p.m.
bottom line:
16 photos celebrating BYU's exciting Poinsettia Bowl win over SDSU.
0 photos of Utah's couch potato bowl.
LaMont Levi Hansen Provo, UTJune 17, 2013 11:01 p.m.
I suspect you will see conferences go away and with our fanbase and national reputation we'll start signing exclusive agreements with the cream of the crop of the SEC, Big12, and PAC12--our bowl games every year will be BYU vs. Alabama, BYU vs. Oregon, BYU vs. Oklahoma. Also, we have a better football program than everyone in the PAC except for Oregon... that's really why we were excluded.
Billy Budd Saint George, UTJune 17, 2013 10:50 p.m.
If BYU plays a bowl game in California, Arizona or Texas, in Dec/Jan etc., it's all good.
Getting to watch any fb in Dec/Jan takes the sting out of Dec/Jan weather even in Saint George.
The Deuce Livermore, CAJune 17, 2013 10:43 p.m.
I have a unique idea for the Cougars: Win and you will have a choice of bowl games. Keep on the same path as last year and we will be talking about this same topic next year. Take a page out of the Boise State play book - win!
Y>U Anaheim, CAJune 17, 2013 10:23 p.m.
"Speaking of relevance, how will you claim Cougar relevance when the five power conferences split from the NCAA to form an elite division excluding the likes of SDSU and BYU?"
IF that happens, the Utes will become nothing more than the Ole Miss of the PAC, the Indiana of the BlG or the Iowa St of the Big 12 - a perennial losing team and conference bottom dweller that will never play in another bowl game again.
Y>U Anaheim, CAJune 17, 2013 10:16 p.m.
"Pretty good opponent??? Please.... it was San Diego St... the truth is that BYU has a great record against the mid-low/major WAC/MWC."
LOL at your frantic and emotional spin.
The truth is Utah is only 17-12-1 all-time versus SDSU, while BYU has dominated the Aztecs 27-6-1.
In 2012, the Aztecs(9-4) tied for the MWC championship and, unlike the Utes, SDSU actually qualified for a bowl. While the Utes were getting CRUSHED by Washington 15-34, the Aztecs were actually competitive against the Huskies, only losing 12-21 at Washington. Also unlike the Utes, the Aztecs beat a Top 25 team, #18/#14 Boise St. 21-19.
Cougsndawgs West Point , UTJune 17, 2013 9:47 p.m.
"But the truth is that BYU has a great record against the mid-low/major WAC/MWC.
When BYU plays the big boys of the BCS it has a losing record."
And this makes them different from Utah how? Bronco has a better record against BCS and ranked opponents than Kyle W. Were you trying to elevate Utah's status with that comment, or just testing how your foot tasted?
Marked it Down Park City, UTJune 17, 2013 9:45 p.m.
Did you know that Kyle is 7-11 in the conference and hasn't beaten a single PAC 12 team with a winning record since joining the conference?
Utah can't even beat the little boys of the conference - two losses to PAC teams with losing records including a home loss to 10-loss Colorado, one of the worst teams in the country.
FOUR of BYU's five losses last season were to Top 25 teams, 3 of them by a combined 10 points on the road.
FIVE of Utah's seven losses last season were to UNRANKED teams, 4 of them by 10+ points.
The USC team that easily handled the Utes in RES, was overpowered in the Sun Bowl by the same Georgia Tech team that BYU destroyed on the road.
Howard S. Taylorsville, UTJune 17, 2013 9:39 p.m.
@Snack PAC
Olympus Cove, Utah
Speaking of relevance, how will you claim Cougar relevance when the five power conferences split from the NCAA to form an elite division excluding the likes of SDSU and BYU?
Howard S. Taylorsville, UTJune 17, 2013 9:35 p.m.
Snack PAC
Olympus Cove, Utah
Pretty good opponent???
Please.... it was San Diego St.
But the truth is that BYU has a great record against the mid-low/major WAC/MWC.
When BYU plays the big boys of the BCS it has a losing record.
Let's see how the Cougs do against a schedule that isn't padded with WAC cupcakes.
Howard S. Taylorsville, UTJune 17, 2013 9:29 p.m.
Marysville, WA
"If we never play Utah again, that would be just fine with me."
Amen... and Amen.
Utah shouldn't be granting BYU a BCS game... much less on a home and home basis.
Snack PAC Olympus Cove, UtahJune 17, 2013 9:24 p.m.
Howard S.
"Major college football is defined by... and will continue to be defined by the five power conferences..."
Unfortunately for U, the only relevance U have in one of those five power conferences is as a punching bag for the big boys of the PAC to pad their conference win totals.
Your conference may be a "power broker", but you're nothing but a bottom feeder, forced to live in the reflected light of programs that have actually accomplished something in the PAC.
Wins over PAC opponents with winning records: ZERO
Losses to PAC opponents with LOSING records: TWO
The fact that you're here trying to minimize the bowl accomplishments of a team that actually won a bowl game against a pretty good opponent last season speaks volumes for just how irrelevant U really are.
Cougsndawgs West Point , UTJune 17, 2013 9:17 p.m.
CO Ute:
I agree. How an article about Utah's "former" rival, and a team Utah fans "don't care about" could garner so much crimson attention is beyond me. As with most of their lives, the ute trolls are living in some fantasy where they believe BYU is no longer a rival and no longer their concern, yet show up without exception on articles about BYU to resoundingly prove otherwise...hilarious and sad at the same time.
Uteology East Salt Lake City, UtahJune 17, 2013 9:00 p.m.
BYU will be bowling and Utah won't.
BYU goes 11-1, 12-0 they're in a big bowl.
You mean like in 2001?
"BCS denies Cougars; BYU headed to Liberty: A 12-0 record, top scoring offense proves not enough"
I think BYU has a better chance of ending their 40+ years of discussions with a "Big 12" invite then getting a "big bowl".
Howard S. Taylorsville, UTJune 17, 2013 8:45 p.m.
@Just Truth
Saratoga Springs, UT
Did I say 5 times?
Oh, and as for Utah's tough PAC12 schedule... did you know that Bronco has a losing record against BCS teams?
WA_Alum&Dad Marysville, WAJune 17, 2013 8:31 p.m.
@Elmer Fudd
"Why don't you try and read and comment on Utah only articles. You'll be surprised how many Utah-haters you'll find on those articles! Sorry, but hating goes both ways not just Utah fans hating BYU!"
Because I don't give a flying rip about the U, and I can't imagine wasting time trolling their stories. If we never play Utah again, that would be just fine with me.
sammyg Springville, UTJune 17, 2013 8:15 p.m.
I always chuckle at the Utesies for running down the very bowl games that Commissioner Larry Scott negotiated for his sixth and seventh place teams.
Sure is disappointing when you don't go bowling in these 'third tier' custom created bowl games huh?
I've said it once, I'll say it again... Had there been a Laramie Bowl in late January, Utes would have been proud to have gone... if they could have won enough games. LOL
Y Grad / Y Dad Richland, WAJune 17, 2013 8:11 p.m.
Like it always does, this thread has deteriorated into "neener neener neener," and "oh, yeah?"
What do we know?
BYU has TWO bowl choices, and realistically only one, and they've done pretty good at getting there. They've played in games against teams that are meaningless to our Ute friends. There's a surprise.
But seriously, we're taking smack from bowl-less Utah??? You have six bowl options, realistically one, or none. The PAC whatever HAS six bowl tie-ins, but how many have gone unused in recent years because the PAC can't get enough teams to six wins? Does that slipper fit any princesses around here?
You want to talk 3 in a row, 4 of the last 5 (6)? Go ahead! Can't stop ya. But Utah has NOTHING, when it comes to bowl smack. Go scheme and dream that MAYBE you'll join us in the Kraft Mac&Cheese bowl. If you catch several lucky breaks.
Howard S. Taylorsville, UTJune 17, 2013 8:01 p.m.
The elephant in the room as Cougar Nation desperately tries to allege relevance in the modern era of college football is that...
wait for it...
Major college football is defined by... and will continue to be defined by the five power conferences... and every power conference in the country has rejected BYU and its WACish history, backdoor NC trophy, individual awards, worldwide fanbase, legacy, and popcorn popping stadium.
None of it matters to the power brokers of college football... and yet the Cougar Nation continues to cling desperately to the fading illusion of BYU relevance.
anti BCS Anaheim, CAJune 17, 2013 7:28 p.m.
Spokane Ute
Can't make it any simpler. Utah's chances of playing in any bowl in 2013-14 are about the same as they were for 2012-13... slim and none.
CO Ute PARKER, COJune 17, 2013 6:43 p.m.
As usual, an article about BYU with no mention of Utah turned into the normal back and forth from both sides making the same posts again and again. Couple of follow up thoughts.
@Naval Vet - I am not LDS but I do recognize that the Y has a very large fan base (Mormons like to watch the Mormon school play) which is attractive to the third tier bowls as I mentioned above. Not right, not wrong but it is what it is. Still, the Y has a miracle season and goes to a big time bowl or go to a third tier game (if they achieve 6 wins).
@tators - pathetic to talk about total yards as if that matters. The scoreboard has favored the team from SLC 8 of the last 11 times the team played. No argument will change that.
@WiscCoug - if you really went through over 500 posts on an article and also all the post n 8 others to look for comments from Naval Vet, you should get a hobby.
And finally, lets continue this discussion after BYU posts 6 wins in a season that doesn't have more than 2 games from WAC or similar teams.
Cougsndawgs West Point , UTJune 17, 2013 6:39 p.m.
AZUTE & Naval Vet:
NV-"I didn't rescind such respect until AFTER it turned out that at 8-5, Oklahoma was grossly overrated rather than the Top-5 program we all mistakenly made them out to be in the preseason."
AZUTE-"Not unlike '84 PITT, which byu similarly struggled against and which likewise finished the season, UNRANKED, but not before enabling byu to erroneously vault up into the rankings, LITERALLY, out of nowhere. Thank goodness this EPIC mistake will never again be allowed to be repeated! LOL"
What would OU have done with Sam Bradford the rest of the year. Lets not forget BYU held him in check when he was in that game, before blasting him out of it. If you're honest you will say they would have been much better than 8-5, and BYU had to face Bradford, while many of the teams OU lost to didn't. AZUTE: yep, that epic mistake will never be allowed again, and 2008 was a great example. Utah sky rockets into the rankings at #17 after beating a great Michigan team by a duece...oh wait, Michigan went 3-9 that year and had one of their worst seasons ever...sound familiar?
NorCalCougarFan&Alum Elk Grove, CAJune 17, 2013 6:10 p.m.
Ute fans seem to be too preoccupied with Cougar football. BYU football will be just fine schedule and bowl wise. We can do independence and will eventually thrive as an independent. That's the luxury of being a private university with a unique mission. I could care less what the Utes do, or whether or not we play them after this season. The BYU/Utah game
might define Ute fans, and all of their anti-BYU/anti-Mormon rhetoric, but the game doesn't define Cougar fans. BYU football's main mission is to provide exposure primarily for the LDS Church, and true Cougar fans embrace it.
Just Truth Saratoga Springs, UTJune 17, 2013 5:56 p.m.
Spokane Ute, who cares? Independent schools are the least tied-down programs. BYU schedules many games with teams all over the country, while Utah is tied down to playing the same teams throughout the season. And those pac teams showing they are too tough for Utah, anyway, keeping Utah from tying down a bowl game at all. Besides, outside of a handful of BCS bowls you have 70 options for a bowl game that are all basically on the same tier. Maybe Utah will come play BYU in an upcoming bowl game instead of running away from rivalry competition over the next two years.
Just Truth Saratoga Springs, UTJune 17, 2013 5:48 p.m.
Well Howard S., if you have to read a quote 5 times to understand it, maybe that says more about the reader/commenter than it does the guy who's worth quoting in the article.
Spokane Ute Spokane, WAJune 17, 2013 5:17 p.m.
Can't make it any simplier. Utah could play in one of 7 differen't bowls this year; as the PAC 12 has many tie ins. They could play a team from the BIG 12, MWC or BIG 10. BYU is locked into one bowl vs. PAC 12 #6. I have no idea what the Chick Fillet, Out Back or Gator Bowls have to do with our conversation?
I'm not sure why the sarcasm has to come into play? A simple concept and a fact any way you spin it. Utah has a wide variety of bowls and destinations that they could end up in; BYU has one.
I also find it amussing that you have already penciled BYU in the Kraft Fight Hunger Bowl. Check out your schedule; it's far from a given.
MacNasty Rexburg, IDJune 17, 2013 5:11 p.m.
Re: Bleed Crimson @ 12:58 pm
I am not flattering myself, just stating fact. Also, I don't like gambling and point spreads is gambling. A team wins heads up or it loses heads up. BTW, I made no mention of point spreads at all, just that the Vegas boys favored BYU over Utah.
You need to read the rest of the comment about final rankings in the polls.
Check out those final rankings especially 2011 and 2012 when BYU went indy and the Utes went PAC-thetic.
BTW: Final rankings in the polls reflect the totality of a team's wins and loses during the season. Once again, the final BCS rankings include SOS.
So, you know, Utah ranked #60 and BYU ranked #55 the the BCS final rankings.
BYU beat Utah State, Utah State beat Utah, Utah beat BYU. So who was the best in 2012?
Utah State, BCS final ranking of #22. They earned it even though BYU beat them; they were a better team overall last year. Utah trolls have to come to grips with facts.
Spokane Ute Spokane, WAJune 17, 2013 5:05 p.m.
Nice to see an honest post and BYU fan. I concur, and yes Utah does need to start beating the upper tier of the PAC 12. They are competing, but they need to turn the corner. Last season was dissapointing to say the least. Utah beating BYU 3 in a row and 8 of 11 doesn't say much for BYU, now does it? Both programs need to play better; let's not kid our self.
AZUTE1 Mesa, AZJune 17, 2013 4:50 p.m.
Naval Vet--
"I didn't rescind such respect until AFTER it turned out that at 8-5, Oklahoma was grossly overrated rather than the Top-5 program we all mistakenly made them out to be in the preseason."
Not unlike '84 PITT, which byu similarly struggled against and which likewise finished the season, UNRANKED, but not before enabling byu to erroneously vault up into the rankings, LITERALLY, out of nowhere.
Thank goodness this EPIC mistake will never again be allowed to be repeated! LOL
Duckhunter Highland, UTJune 17, 2013 4:34 p.m.
@spokane ute
None of us care about the payout, we don't get any of it and BYU runs an athletic department SURPLUS. We care far more about destination and playing in a bowl game in America's armpit is hardly something to brag about.
Oh and utah was not in the alamo bowl last time I checked, not that the alamo bowl is all that fantastic either, but nice job trying to turn utah into something with "almost" and "one major (lol) upset away" excuses.
p.s. The "major upset" line was the funniest one. No one buys that spin. LOL!
BYUtah Fan Herriman, UTJune 17, 2013 4:28 p.m.
As a BYU (mostly) and a Utah (kinda) fan, I have to say that the hyperbole is well, hyperbolic. Both BYU and Utah have "good" programs. Neither has earned a BCS game of late. BYU never has. While BYU's defense is top notch, the offense is not. Utah had a couple of awesome years and is now getting hammered. Neither team is currently turning heads. That could all change in a season. If BYU gets it's offensive stuff together, they could be terrific. If Utah could resume its 2008 form, they will blitz through the Pac-12. The trash talking between BYU and Utah right now is over which team is less mediocre. But patience!! I believe that one or both of these teams will soon move to top 10 status.
Ronald Uharriet SWun City, Ca.June 17, 2013 4:00 p.m.
I still dream for miracles.
I would like to see a bowl tie in that
would include ND, TCU, Baler, BYU, SMU,
and all other Church based schools.
In the event, any of the said schools would
be invited to a BCS Bowl invitation, that/those
schools would be excused from this tie in.
The top two remaining teams would be
in this Church Based Bowl.
The other eligible teams would be excused to
accept invitations to play in other bowls.
Maybe a Provo Bowl one year or another
year at ND or Bailor, TCU, SMU, or other
Church Based School could be our Bowl
Location on alternating seasons.
STuFOO Korea, AEJune 17, 2013 3:58 p.m.
I love it when u fans pound their chest and say..
"we did do something, we beat you 3 out of four times!"
Wow!? Man, you sure showed us. Oh, that put me in my place.
That changes everything. Gosh, you're a national powerhouse.
I bet they talk about you all the time when other teams are playing...
I bet they bring u up in the national media...
I bet they talk about you when they put together lists like I don't...
quarterbacks, National Champions, Dynasty teams, individual record holders, feel good stories about talented kids from Africa taken in the first round, people on covers of magazines, etc.
oh wait, that's not u.
At the end of the day, wow, I gotta say, you've done, well, let me see, um, add none, carry the one...
oh, As and ASU and BSU grad a well, I like it when you tell BYU you own them.
I guess since you will always own BYU, we will always own you. Good logic.
RepresentBlue West Jordan, UTJune 17, 2013 2:52 p.m.
Mediocre at best bowl tie-ins are one of the drawbacks of independence. Any educated Cougar fan understands this, but most that I know are willing to accept this trade-off in order to have the opportunity to play teams from all over the country and have their games carried by ESPN and rebroadcast the same day on BYUtv, something they did not have in the MWC. Yes, Utah is in a better situation playing in a power conference with far superior bowl game opportunities, but until they actually demonstrate they are capable of competing in a power conference their fans don't have much to pound their chests about other than beating their supposedly "former" rival 3 out of the last 4 years.
WON84 PLANO, TXJune 17, 2013 2:50 p.m.
"CO Ute
Wow, I get to make a post before the normal barrage of Y vs. U banter begins.
BYU has a large national following and is a good draw for most of the bowl games. They should have no problem locking into games for the future, assuming they can win enough games to be eligible with an improved schedule. On the other hand, not belonging to a conference is going to relegate them to either a miracle season leading to a BCS type bowl or a third tier game.
The big conferences will have ties to all the second tier games (beyond what are now BCS games)once the new system shakes out."
This could not be more accurate though I actually disagree on the miracle season scenario. Part of the job of the selection committee is to ensure only teams within current BCS conferences participate in any such bowl games / playoff games...in order to keep the funds concentrated.
Tators Hyrum, UTJune 17, 2013 2:43 p.m.
@Elmer Fudd:
What I'm trying to prove is that Utah has not been nearly so dominant over BYU these past few years as many of your fellow trolls are trying to people believe.
Case in point, in last year's game BYU had 312 total yards to Utah's 245. BYU had 25 first downs to Utah's 14. The only reason for Utah's win was fewer turnovers, which is often just a matter of good or bad bounce of the ball. There was certainly no dominance by Utah when they won by 3 points. And there was a similar story in 2010 when Utah won by only 1 point.
The other point I'm trying to make for those people having a hard time understanding is that these win streaks come and go. Before Utah's current 3 game streak, BYU won 3 of the previous 4 games. It goes back and forth. There really has been no dominance either way in the past decade or so. The last real dominance was between 1972 and 1992 when BYU won 19 of 21 games against Utah. And yes, I know... that's now ancient history... just like Utah's BCS bowl wins.
Wiscougarfan River Falls, WIJune 17, 2013 2:25 p.m.
RE: Spokane Ute
"My point is that Utah can play in the Sun, Alamo, Holiday, or Rose Bowl. All of these destinations are an impossibility for BYU... Playing as an independent provides one option: fight hunger bowl. Understand?"
I think I understand what you're saying... Utah, despite playing in a "power conference" can never play in the capital one, chick-fil-A, outback, gator, or cotton bowls. That is because those bowls have tie-ins to other conferences. Meanwhile, BYU can't play in the games tied to the PAC12. Is that right? Good think I got a PhD, that was a little tricky.
Unfortunately for you and the other trolls, BYU has had options for playing in various bowls, which is why they have played in different bowls each of the last few years. The difference is that as an independent they have to negotiate bowl contracts before the season, not after (hence this article).
So while BYU will likely play in San Fran this postseason, Utah will be lucky if they make it to New Mexico.
Wiscougarfan River Falls, WIJune 17, 2013 2:14 p.m.
RE: Naval Vet
"Likely. I certainly gave your "Band of Bunglers" credit for beating Oklahoma back in 2009, even though that win was JUST BARELY, and the lead wasn't taken in that game until AFTER you all knocked Bradford out of the game, leaving the Sooners with a true freshman under center. I gave you all credit because despite all that, you DID win the game, and it WAS a virtual Home game for Oklahoma."
Really??! I'd love to see where you gave BYU credit for anything positive, I've never seen a troll do such a thing but it would be cool. Oddly, I scrolled through the 577 comments for the article following the BYU/OU game (BYU football: Blue crush — Cougars send BCS message with stunning win) and there were no comments by Naval Vet. Neither were there any on the other eight articles written about the game that weekend. You probably just forgot that you gave credit to BYU in your mind but never actually wrote it down.
patriot Cedar Hills, UTJune 17, 2013 1:55 p.m.
If the Y could ever get back to winning again ..against the BIG teams.. the bowl situation would take care of itself. When was the last BIG game the Y won? Right now BYU is in College Football waste land and the only way out is to win. To win the Y needs a big time QB with a BIG arm and they don't have that so ...
Elmer Fudd Sandy, UtahJune 17, 2013 1:52 p.m.
@ Tators
"Utah's win streak is 3, not 4 over BYU, as you wrote. And 2 of those 3 wins were by a combined total of only 4 points and decided in the last minute of the game. Also, BYU generated more offense than Utah in both of those 2 games"
2 of BYU's last 3 wins over Utah were by a combine total of 5 points and Utah had more total offense than BYU in those games. What are you trying to prove? Sometimes teams win with generating less offense. As long as a team has more points at the end of the game, they win! See how easy that is? That's why Utah dominates the rivalry in recent years and historically!
GoRed WEST VALLEY CITY, UTJune 17, 2013 1:41 p.m.
The righteous indignation of some BYU fans on this web site targeted toward Utah fans is hilarious. Have any of you guys read any given DesNews article on the Utes? There are generally as many BYU fans taking pot shots at Utah as there are Ute fans defending their program.
It goes both ways.
Spokane Ute Spokane, WAJune 17, 2013 1:41 p.m.
@ Phantomblade
You don't have to worry about going to Elpaso, San Antonio or Pasadena. It's San Diego or no where.
So if a Utah fan gives there opinion on BYU's bowl situation, they are automatically a Hater? No, just a sports fan explaining the difference between a PAC 12 team's bowl options, and an Independent. No hate, just telling it like it is.
Spokane Ute Spokane, WAJune 17, 2013 1:35 p.m.
My point is that Utah can play in the Sun, Alamo, Holiday, or Rose Bowl. All of these destinations are an impossibility for BYU. I guess the Rose is possible, but extremely remote. Pretty simple concept; belonging to a power conference provides these options (better bowls, better opponents, better pay out). Playing as an independent provides one option: fight hunger bowl. Understand?
I watch the bowls on TV. I would prefer to watch Utah play a power conference opponent with a better pay out, then a non power conference opponent is San Fran, or Vegas. However, if you base it on location alone, so be it. I find it hard to believe that BYU wouldn't love to have Utah's post season options. I will take the PAC 12 tie ins, to the Kraft Macaroni and Cheese bowl tie in/lock; any day of the week!
Elmer Fudd Sandy, UtahJune 17, 2013 1:34 p.m.
@ WA_Alum&Dad
"I haven't stopped to count it up for this article, but once again it seems like half the comments posted are from BYU haters. I don't think I've ever commented on a Utah story that didn't have an explicit BYU tie-in. You ute fans need to get a life. Is all that's left for you now that your dreams came true and you are in a power conference is to comment on a team that you profess not to care about? Who is "frantic and emotional?" Sheesh"
Why don't you try and read and comment on Utah only articles. You'll be surprised how many Utah-haters you'll find on those articles! Sorry, but hating goes both ways not just Utah fans hating BYU!
FelisConcolor North Salt Lake, UTJune 17, 2013 1:17 p.m.
Interesting to see all the Utah fans obsessing over BYU's bowl chances.
Then again, considering Utah is predicted to miss a bowl again this year it's not surprising they'd rather talk about BYU. Or USU. Or any other team that is going to a bowl.
Tators Hyrum, UTJune 17, 2013 1:14 p.m.
To Redblood:
FYI: Utah's win streak is 3, not 4 over BYU, as you wrote. And 2 of those 3 wins were by a combined total of only 4 points and decided in the last minute of the game. Also, BYU generated more offense than Utah in both of those 2 games.
And by the way, the current streak ended last year. This September will confirm it. Utah seems to be so unconfident about being able to continue it's winning ways against BYU that they are dropping them from their schedule after this year. And considering that Utah hasn't lately been able to generate enough wins to go bowling, you'd think they would go out their way to keep anyone on their schedule they felt they could beat. And perhaps they have.
Naval Vet Philadelphia, PAJune 17, 2013 1:12 p.m.
"...if BYU manages to pull out 8-10 wins this year, playing a much improved schedule, will you give them any credit?"
Likely. I certainly gave your "Band of Bunglers" credit for beating Oklahoma back in 2009, even though that win was JUST BARELY, and the lead wasn't taken in that game until AFTER you all knocked Bradford out of the game, leaving the Sooners with a true freshman under center. I gave you all credit because despite all that, you DID win the game, and it WAS a virtual Home game for Oklahoma.
I didn't rescind such respect until AFTER it turned out that at 8-5, Oklahoma was grossly overrated rather than the Top-5 program we all mistakenly made them out to be in the preseason.
Naval Vet Philadelphia, PAJune 17, 2013 1:06 p.m.
"Your continued use of the term Indy-WACers is so tired...How many WAC teams does BYU play in 2013? And if BYU manages to pull out 8-10 wins this year, playing a much improved schedule, will you give them any credit?"
My continued use of the term Indy-WACers DOES irritate the fans that have been desperately trying to spin and whitewash their knee-jerk reaction of leaving the most competitive non-AQ conference in the country once realizing that no elite conference wanted them. That said, you're "legacy" and "brand" were not built on playing the kind of schedule we'll be seeing in the Fall, and neither had you ever seen a schedule even REMOTELY like that in the history of cougar football. It had been built on beating all the weakest teams...
...in the WAC.
So until you actually "play" (not "schedule") a competitive schedule, don't expect me to be impressed with your recent 10- and 8-win seasons. Those seasons were WACish. So your TEAM is WACish.
WA_Alum&Dad Marysville, WAJune 17, 2013 12:59 p.m.
I haven't stopped to count it up for this article, but once again it seems like half the comments posted are from BYU haters. I don't think I've ever commented on a Utah story that didn't have an explicit BYU tie-in. You ute fans need to get a life. Is all that's left for you now that your dreams came true and you are in a power conference is to comment on a team that you profess not to care about? Who is "frantic and emotional?" Sheesh.
Bleed Crimson Sandy, UtahJune 17, 2013 12:58 p.m.
@ MacNasty
"Yes, it is something. It is rather embarrassing. This year things will change; at least the odds makers in Vegas think so (I don't bet, but those guys make their tawdry living on it)"
If I'm not mistaken; Hasn't BYU been favored to win the last few years against Utah going into the rival game according to Vegas? Somehow Utah always comes out on top! Don't flatter yourself over what Vegas thinks. Utah has had BYU's number for the last decade! Point spreads change week to week as the season kicks off! Nobody knows for sure what kind of team Utah and BYU will have this year until they play a game or two. That's why preseason Vegas odds are worthless!
Naval Vet Philadelphia, PAJune 17, 2013 12:53 p.m.
I stand corrected. Sort of. I DID mention that they played the game on SMU's campus, so the whole Ft. Worth vs. Dallas was an inadvertence. It wasn't a "made up" fact. It was a misstatement. Do you know the difference?
A "made up fact" would be for someone to say something like "I was there, and yes, 75% were BYU fans." Because the only thing that is "known" about the 2011 Armed Forces Bowl was that it wasn't a "sold out" bowl game, and that only 30K fans were recorded to have passed thru the turnstiles. If the game wasn't sold out, what kept the Indy-WACey fans from purchasing tickets? Don't forget that unsold ticket allotments are available to the public well before game day.
When the Indy-WACers played TCU at Jerry's World, there were only 50K recorded in attendance. But you're insisting that the Indy-WACers' "easily" comprised of 60% of the fans in a game located 15-mi. west of the stadium? That's the sort of frantic and emotional made up facts I was talking about.
Tators Hyrum, UTJune 17, 2013 12:50 p.m.
I'd like to know if anyone has seen any articles concerning Utah going to a future bowl game... any bowl game at all, even lower tier? No... I didn't think so. Neither have I.
The only relevant talk I've recently heard concerning Utah and bowl games is if they will ever again qualify for one. Perhaps joining the PAC10 was getting in a little over it's head.
As such, it's little wonder there are so many Ute "fans" commenting on a BYU-Bowl game article. There is nowhere similar for them to go. It's rather sad that if you can't find any good news about yourself, you instead try to demean the good that someone else has. Hence, the negative comments from Utah fans concerning this article.
RedBlood Bountiful, UTJune 17, 2013 12:46 p.m.
@ giantfan
Great comments. I can't speak for Naval but applaud your realistic approach to this season. This year, in my opinion, really is one of the first solid schedules BYU has had for quite some time. The 8-11 wins they have enjoyed in recent years have been WAY over hyped and Bronco has received far too much credit for those records. As BYU moves into schedules that are noteworthy, the writing will be on the wall relative to how many wins you can now pull off. As I mentioned in a recent post, I can personally live with occasional down years. No doubt it was embarrassing to not reach bowl eligibility last year. That doesn't happen often with the Utes so I can live with it for a season. Bronco, and lately, Whittingham, have shown they generally struggle in the big games. This will absolutely catch up to both of them if things don't change. I'm not sure if there won't be moaning in Provo should the Cougars lose to Utah this year and make it five straight losses to their rival up north. Say what you want - that's an important game.
Good luck in 2013!
giantfan Farmington, UTJune 17, 2013 12:18 p.m.
Your continued use of the term Indy-WACers is so tired. What's unfortunate is that sometimes your comments are relevant and actually deserve merit but you're so obviously more interested in demeaning and belittling than adding any real value to the conversation.
What's been said many times before is that the WAC provided some much needed scheduling help the first couple years of BYU's football independence, which BYU is very grateful for. I believe the arrangement was of mutual benefit for the WAC schools that opened up their schedules. Two questions for you: How many WAC teams does BYU play in 2013? And if BYU manages to pull out 8-10 wins this year, playing a much improved schedule, will you give them any credit? None of us here will be holding our breaths.
I, for one, am not predicting an 8-10 or more win season but it's certainly possible. My point is, your blinding hatred for BYU precludes you from seeing anything objectively having to do with BYU. You try and hide that fact by sounding logical but who here will buy it based on your track record?
phantomblade Salt Lake City, UtahJune 17, 2013 12:17 p.m.
Spokane Ute
Frankly, as a fan, I couldn't care less what a particular bowl pays out.
I'm far more interested in whether the bowl is played in an interesting location with other entertainment options in addition to the bowl.
San Diego, Las Vegas, Orlando, and this year, San Francisco (if BYU doesn't have an unlikely 11- or 12-win season), are among the cities our family has enjoyed visiting even without a football game to attend.
El Paso, on the other hand, is not a place I would even remotely be interested in taking my family, especially for New Year's Eve... yuck!
Wiscougarfan River Falls, WIJune 17, 2013 12:13 p.m.
RE: Spokane Ute
So your response to my earlier post is that BYU can't play in a bowl in San Antonio that Utah didn't make it to two years ago?
MacNasty Rexburg, IDJune 17, 2013 12:09 p.m.
Re: RedBlood @ 11:35 am
"I can tell you one thing we've done in the last five years...
Beat BYU 4 of the last 5 years
Is that something?"
Yes, it is something. It is rather embarrassing. This year things will change; at least the odds makers in Vegas think so (I don't bet, but those guys make their tawdry living on it).
However, in the majority of those years I believe BYU was ranked higher in the final polls than Utah, which polls are better indicators of a team's overall performance than just one game. BTW, the poll mentioned include the final BCS rankings (which include SOS rendering any arguments about BYU's weak SOS irrelevant).
Have a nice day.
Spokane Ute Spokane, WAJune 17, 2013 11:58 a.m.
I'm sure that you are aware Utah played in the Sun Bowl 2 years ago, and that they were a major upset (to Colorado) away from playing in the Alamo Bowl don't you? Both bowl have a higher payout then any of the bowls you mention; and both are un-touchable by BYU.
CougFaninTX Frisco, TXJune 17, 2013 11:45 a.m.
@Naval Vet - "Play in Texas? Count on 20K - 30K" The 2011 Armed Forces Bowl -- played in Ft. Worth, TX -- only drew 30K total fans."
Talk about made up facts. BYU played Tulsa at SMU stadium which only holds 32,000. TCU was under construction. I was there, and yes, 75% were BYU fans. I'm sure BYU could have sold 30k, but some of the tickets had to go to Tulsa.
When BYU played TCU in Jerry World, BYU easily had 30k. When BYU played Oklahoma in Jerry World, BYU easily had 30k.
Wiscougarfan River Falls, WIJune 17, 2013 11:38 a.m.
RE: Trolls
Your point of BYU going to the same Kraft fight hunger bowl whether they are a six win or an eleven win team is pointless. Why? Because it is highly unlikely BYU will win more than eight games this season against such a difficult schedule. So having a guaranteed bowl for an independent team is nice. And it's not a bad bowl... it's in San Fransisco and teams who have played there recently include Virginia Tech, Boston College, Utah, and Florida Sate. They payout isn't great but there are worse things in the world.
What I don't get is why this is so important to y'all. If Utah wins six games (highly unlikely) then there is a chance they will play in the New Mexico Bowl or if they are lucky (maybe with seven or eight wins) the Kraft Fight Hunger Bowl. Barring a miracle (winning eight or more games) Utah will be going to a "lower" bowl than BYU. Really, at this point the best case scenario for the Utes is that they'll join the cougars in San Fransisco, hoping for some redemption for their September loss to the Y.
RedBlood Bountiful, UTJune 17, 2013 11:35 a.m.
I can tell you one thing we've done in the last five years...
Beat BYU 4 of the last 5 years
Is that something?
STuFOO Korea, AEJune 17, 2013 11:24 a.m.
I am so grateful that u fans come to these boards and share their infinite wisdom. They are so smart! Wow, I mean...
with all that knowledge...
they must have a really good team.
with all that experience...
they must be called on by their AD all the time to structure their schedule.
with all that knowledge...
they must be working for ESPN giving expert advice to commentators.
Wait, what?
the u is irreverent? they didn't go bowling last year? they are cellar dwellers in the pac 11=1?
That's surprising...
you'd think they had done something the last five years...
WestGranger West Valley City, UtahJune 17, 2013 11:22 a.m.
BYU will get much more exposure and therefore attract better recruits. The MWC would have kept them in obscurity. Independence will allow them to step up to the next level.Utah will have a competitive year this year and will soon have a great year and win the PAC 12. Both schools are in better positions than before despite the relatively mediocre years for both last year. Both teams have good defensive coaches but need offenses this year. Change will pay off over time.
STuFOO Korea, AEJune 17, 2013 11:18 a.m.
Navel lint,
"Actually, what makes the Indy-WACers so intriguing is that their fanbase is not gigantic, but their own opinions of themselves IS"
So what you are saying is that when a BYU fan expresses their opinion on a BYU article, they are arrogant, self-serving and narcissistic...
So when a u fan / BYU hater, like your self, expresses their opinion, on a BYU article, which is highly critical, never objective, and always with malice....
What would you call that?
Talk about having a high opinion of yourself. Good thing you can point out that mote in their eye with the BEAM in yours.
MacNasty Rexburg, IDJune 17, 2013 11:11 a.m.
Re: MyPerspective @ 9:16 am
First off, there are only 7 billion people of the planet. If you include the spirit world, your 11 billion might be close to accurate. LOL
BYU's fan base at last count is 201.7% greater than the Utah's fan base (BYU = 709,864, Utah = 351,7939).
Those are the numbers and no mildly glib or weak sarcastic statements will change them.
Have a great day.
RedBlood Bountiful, UTJune 17, 2013 10:54 a.m.
Ridiculous comments.
I am amazed at how much blue kool aid, personally mixed by Mr. Holmoe has been drunk by Cougar fans. Have any of you Cougar fans really stepped back to read your comments? Perhaps the majority of Cougar fans really are satisfied and / or content to consistently play in lower tier bowl games, all in the name of "exposure". If you really think playing in crappy bowl games is good exposure for your university, and you are satisfied that is the goal of your athletic director, then more power to you. I shake my head thinking what a sad state that would be to be in, i.e. rationalizing mediocrity. I have said this a thousand times and cougar fans just don't seem to get it - IT IS FAR BETTER FOR YOUR FOOTBALL PROGRAM TO HAVE AVERAGE SEASONS, INTERSPERSED WITH MAJOR, BCS EXPOSURE, THAN IT IS FOR YOU TO WIN 10-11 GAMES VERSUS CRAP SCHEDULES AND GET SUBSEQUENT 'EXPOSURE' IN CRAP BOWL GAMES.
You really need to wake up and demand from your AD that your genuine goal is national exposure through QUALITY wins and trips to the playoff system. Trust me, I have experienced this!
Naval Vet Philadelphia, PAJune 17, 2013 10:46 a.m.
"The most interesting thing about BYU's fan base to Bowls and TV people is that it is spread all across the country. Play a game in the State of California? BYU will bring 40K..."
It doesn't look that way. The entire recorded attendance at the 2012 Poinsettia Bowl -- played in San Diego, CA -- was only 35K.
"Play in Texas? Count on 20K - 30K"
The 2011 Armed Forces Bowl -- played in Ft. Worth, TX -- only drew 30K total fans. Surely you couldn't be suggesting that the ENTIRE stadium's attendees were 100% Indy-WACers. Especially not since Tulsa is nearly 75% closer to SMU's campus than the Y. Better change that to "made up stats man"?
"That's what makes BYU so intriguing. There [sic] fanbase is not gigantic, but it's spread around the country like very few teams."
Actually, what makes the Indy-WACers so intriguing is that their fanbase is not gigantic, but their own opinions of themselves IS. Hence all the frantic and emotional exaggerations of relevance.
CodyCougar Madison, SDJune 17, 2013 10:46 a.m.
If its exposure, lets go big! Each year, Holmoe can land us in a mid-December bowl, and then in a second early January bowl. One on each coast--we could fill them up, double the pay-check and satisfy double the fans.
SoonerUte Salt Lake City, UTJune 17, 2013 10:46 a.m.
BYU has a pretty nice set up. After their first loss they are out of the national bowls, and fans can make bowl travel plans in September.
Well... they can make plans if they feel pretty confident about getting to 6-6. That's been pretty much assured with the weak start-up schedule. If BYU gets a BCS-like schedule, fans will have to wait longer to lock in those bowl travel plans.
MyPerspective Salt Lake City, UTJune 17, 2013 10:34 a.m.
"Play a game in the State of California? BYU will bring 40K if they're slotted that many tickets - better than virtually any out of state PAC-12 team, except at this point, maybe for Oregon. Play in Texas? Count on 20K - 30K if you can get them tickets. ND? Full of as many BYU fans could get tickets. Georga Tech? Same. Virginia will be the same this year - count on 20K plus. Wisconsin? Same."
Really? The stadium at the San Jose game last year was half empty and it only holds 15,000. Where were the byu fans? You people type this stuff up or read a comment from someone else and believe every word of it.
Go cougars!
Mister J Salt Lake City, UTJune 17, 2013 10:13 a.m.
to SLC BYU Fan & the rest of cougar nation;
Is it slowly starting to dawn on you that byu needs to win 10 games to qualify for the same level of bowl that a 6 or 7 win Utah team would.
Naval Vet Philadelphia, PAJune 17, 2013 10:11 a.m.
CO Ute:
"BYU has a large national following and is a good draw for most of the bowl games. They should have no problem locking into games for the future."
That should be MOSTLY true....in that they won't be left out of the postseason with 6-wins. But they WILL be left out of any bowl game of significance.
I would suspect the Indy-WACers would align themselves with one of the following postseason destinations: Famous Idaho Potato, Poinsettia, Armed Forces, Hawai'i, New Mexico, and/or "new bowl TBD". All are in the West, and none threatening to break the $850K glass ceiling payout our unfortunate little brothers are trapped under.
That said, here a few other more long-shots: New Orleans, Beef 'O' Brady, GoDaddy, Little Caesars, Military, Fight Hunger, Las Vegas, and Heart of Texas. The New Orleans, Beef 'O' Brady, GoDaddy, Military, and Little Caesars are substantially outside their footprint, and the Fight Hunger, Las Vegas, and Heart of Texas pay out too much money for the bowl organizers, who would most likely rather attract a team from one of the 5 power conferences.
I guess we'll see.
Howard S. Taylorsville, UTJune 17, 2013 10:09 a.m.
A massive fanbase and the Cougars are still left to wait for the left-overs after the power conerences make their deals.
Maybe that massive fanbase isn't all it's cracked up to be.
Spokane Ute Spokane, WAJune 17, 2013 9:59 a.m.
And what would those choices be? Whether they win 6; or 10/11 games this year, they will end up in the same bowl: Kraft fight Hunger. It may not be fair; but it's reality!
statman Lehi, UTJune 17, 2013 9:47 a.m.
The most interesting thing about BYU's fan base to Bowls and TV people is that it is spread all across the country. Play a game in the State of California? BYU will bring 40K if they're slotted that many tickets - better than virtually any out of state PAC-12 team, except at this point, maybe for Oregon. Play in Texas? Count on 20K - 30K if you can get them tickets. ND? Full of as many BYU fans could get tickets. Georga Tech? Same. Virginia will be the same this year - count on 20K plus. Wisconsin? Same. There are VERY few teams that have that draw anywhere in the country. That's what makes BYU so intriguing. There fanbase is not gigantic, but it's spread around the country like very few teams, and the fans are happy to drive 5 or 6 hours to get to a game.
Ernest T. Bass Bountiful, UTJune 17, 2013 9:17 a.m.
We have enough clout to choose any bowl we want. With our $6M to $8M per game payout from ESPN, great bowl records and huge fan basses that travel, every bowl will want us. We can pick any of them. We go to Rose bowl before the 1 in Pac 11+1
MyPerspective Salt Lake City, UTJune 17, 2013 9:16 a.m.
"Did you know that BYU's fan base ranks #43 out of 120 FBS college teams? Oregeon ranks #45 and Stanford ranks #69. Utah ranks #67 and Utah State ranks #119."
That's impossible. How could byu be ranked all the way down at #43 when they have 11 Billion fans?
SLC BYU Fan
"But then again isn't it the "fairness doctrine to Utah State" that has landed BYU in the league alignment mess that it find itself in?" Yes, that's exactly what it is...the fault of someone else. Always is when it comes to byu's misfortunes.
MacNasty Rexburg, IDJune 17, 2013 8:37 a.m.
Hey Howard S and all other Ute "fans" commenting on this article:
Since Utah joined the PAC, I hear it is in negotiations to tie into a new bowl.
The bowl is called the "Welcome Doormat" bowl. Possible sites include Pierre, South Dakota, Helena, Montana, or Rio Lindo, California.
Good news for you provided your team will ever hit .500 again.
Have a great day.
Uteanymous Salt Lake City, UtahJune 17, 2013 8:33 a.m.
As an Independent, BYU is two for two in bowl game invitations.
As a bottom of the PACer, Utah is one for two in bowl game invitations.
The so-called "left-overs", as in fun trips to San Diego and San Francisco > the couch potato bowl...
just sayin'
Howard S. Taylorsville, UTJune 17, 2013 8:07 a.m.
"At least BYU has a bit of a choice in the matter, instead of having it slotted in for them."
Funny... BYU's options are indeed slotted in for them.
It's called the left-overs.
Howard S. Taylorsville, UTJune 17, 2013 7:48 a.m.
Have to read Holmoe quotes 2-3 times to make sense of them.
The bottom line appears to be that BYU will wait for the power conferences to make their deals and they hope to scoop up the left-overs.
Howard S. Taylorsville, UTJune 17, 2013 7:46 a.m.
A tiered bowl tie-in for the benefit of BYU makes no sense for the Big12 or any of the power conferences.
Why would any power conference allow their 5th team to be displaced by a 11 win mid-major indy like BYU... they wouldn't.
Relationships with power conferences are far too valuable to the Holiday Bowl and other 2nd tier bowls to even consider a contingent tie-in for BYU.
There a reason that only the BYU faithful mention the tiered tie-in option... because it only makes sense for BYU.
Bluto Sandy, UTJune 17, 2013 7:22 a.m.
@Who am...
Every school takes what they can get.....Hello?
At least BYU has a bit of a choice in the matter, instead of having it slotted in for them.
Gone are the, 5 years in a row in Vegas, for BYU.
And Utah can certainly forget about a Rose Bowl...see Arizona.
Remember with BYU, it's not about the money (they have plenty) it's about Exposure, extra practice and BYU's National fan-base..
SlopJ30 St Louis, MOJune 17, 2013 7:15 a.m.
I never thought of your question as a real head-scratcher. The lower-tier bowls exist to make money. Cheddar. Bread. Gravy. Shekels. Currency. Cabbage. Clams. Dinero. Can you imagine? I know, I know . . this is a stunning revelation.
I'm probably no more excited about "The Kwik-e-Mart Bowl brought to you by Code Red for Men" than you are, but these types of bowls are making money for someone or they wouldn't keep playing them. No skin off my nose.
shorts Payson, UTJune 17, 2013 6:59 a.m.
RE: Silent Lurker
Cottonwood Heights, UT
Mildred in Fillmore (Salt Lake City, UT) First notice the city SLC not fillmore. Second, is a Utah fan make interesting and sometime funny remarks about BYU football and their fans.
Third, you should of left off Oregon and Stanford both with small fan bases. Finally "Schools earn their way into BCS level games, something BYU has yet to acomplish. " that is not true Most schools did not earn their way to BCS conference it had more to do with location.
CougFaninTX Frisco, TXJune 17, 2013 6:37 a.m.
I know it's difficult with the conference tie-ins, but I would love it if BYU could somehow find a way to lock in a two tiered tie-in. Meaning, if we win 6 - 9 games, we go to a Poinsettia type bowl, but if we win 10 or 11 we go to a Holiday type bowl. I know the Holiday bowl is not as happy getting the #5 team from the Big12, now that it's only a ten team conference as it was when it was a 12 team conference.
Who am I sir? Cottonwood Heights, UTJune 17, 2013 1:30 a.m.
Love the quote of Mr. Holmoe, "As an independent....." What did he say? Great doublespeak! Some 67 words to say.... in effect, BYU will take anything it can get!
Johnny Triumph American Fork, UTJune 16, 2013 11:41 p.m.
@bluto - I agree completely. BYU builds in an out if they make a Playoff game. Else they just spread the BYU brand to the rest of the country and show it off. It's pure genius, build the brand on their own terms. BYU has built the mechanism to fit in with the power schools and they've done it on their terms. Other schools grovel to join a major conference and usually don't do very well. So good for BYU, and we welcome exposure and bowl games!
Bluto Sandy, UTJune 16, 2013 10:51 p.m.
Who cares?
BYU will be bowling and Utah won't.
BYU goes 11-1, 12-0 they're in a big bowl.
Otherwise, they mix it up with nice destinations for BYU's fans.
Outside of the 4 team playoffs, it's all window dressing anyway.
Seriously, El Paso or Boise versus Vegas,Phoenix, LA, Frisco or San Diego?
It's all good.
Rockyrd Gilbert, AZJune 16, 2013 10:32 p.m.
Dear Pragmatic,
I can respond to your post in one word: exposure. And that is pragmatic!
Sorry, that was more than one word.
MacNasty Rexburg, IDJune 16, 2013 10:13 p.m.
Um Silent Lurker,
Did you know that BYU's fan base ranks #43 out of 120 FBS college teams? Oregeon ranks #45 and Stanford ranks #69. Utah ranks #67 and Utah State ranks #119.
In fact, BYU's fan base is larger than those of eight PAC 12 teams, and 77 FBS schools in general. BYU's fan base barely missed the top 1/3 by only a mere 0.025.
Source: New York Times Sept. 19, 2011, "The Geography of College Football Fans (and Realignment Chaos), by Nate Silver.
Pragmatic Salt Lake City, UTJune 16, 2013 9:49 p.m.
The second tier bowls are a joke. Why in heavens they even exist really escapes any intelligence other than to have a reason for a football team to have a free vacation.
Silent Lurker Cottonwood Heights, UTJune 16, 2013 9:23 p.m.
Michigan, USC, Alabama, Oklahoma, Ohio State, UCLA, Oregon, LSU, Texas, Nebraska, ND, Stanford, and others all have larger fan bases than BYU. Schools earn their way into BCS level games, something BYU has yet to acomplish. Mildred you really need to get out of Fillmore more often.
Wiscougarfan River Falls, WIJune 16, 2013 8:29 p.m.
BYU will not get a lock into any upper tier bowls but this shouldn't be too disappointing, it's been a decade since any Utah team went to a upper tier bowl that wasn't a BCS bowl. BYU has just as much access to the BCS bowls as almost any other team (they have to be a zero or possibly one loss team) so I say go ahead and lock in the lower tier bowls that are either regional (near Utah) or great vacation destinations.
SLC BYU Fan Salt Lake City, UTJune 16, 2013 7:53 p.m.
Sadly BYU will be unable to secure much beyond second tier level bowls so long as they stay independent. Cougar fans better get used to Poinsetta Bowl, Kraft Fight Hunger or Boise Famous Potato Bowl bid invites that aren't any better than any bowl Utah State can be invited to. But then again isn't it the "fairness doctrine to Utah State" that has landed BYU in the league alignment mess that it find itself in?
CO Ute PARKER, COJune 16, 2013 6:50 p.m.
Wow, I get to make a post before the normal barrage of Y vs. U banter begins.
BYU has a large national following and is a good draw for most of the bowl games. They should have no problem locking into games for the future, assuming they can win enough games to be eligible with an improved schedule. On the other hand, not belonging to a conference is going to relegate them to either a miracle season leading to a BCS type bowl or a third tier game.
The big conferences will have ties to all the second tier games (beyond what are now BCS games)once the new system shakes out.
Mildred in Fillmore Salt Lake City, UTJune 16, 2013 6:29 p.m.
We deserve to be in a Major (currently called BCS bowl) game every year due to our Legacy football reputation among the college football elite. No one has as many fans nationally and internationally as we do and our TV ratings in bowl games proves it.