Show HN: Webflow - Design responsive websites visually - <AUTHOR> http://playground.webflow.com?s=hn <comment><AUTHOR> Co-founder here. My brother and I quit our jobs 7 months ago, and have been working on this day and night off of our savings since then.

The CSS Playground is a preview of our CSS styling tools, and we'll be adding some of our other components (layout, adding new elements, code export) soon. Currently, it only works in Chrome, but we're working hard to add Firefox support.

<comment><USER3> Super awesome and very well done, just played with this for a couple minutes..love how you can choose the different platforms on the left and side and when you click on an element you can edit everything on the right hand side. How do you plan on monetizing this?

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you! It's still early, but we're planning on offering a subscription service to create/import sites and host them on our platform.

<comment><USER4> Looks great! One thing: Please don't force me to host my stuff with you. I'd rather pay twice to have the freedom to dl my designs. Also: Let me pay-as-I- go. As a designer I'd like to use this but I would not want to pay X bucks per month. I would pay X dollars per project.

Edit: After studying the video: I'll pay triple! Any thoughts on importing bootstrap?

<comment><AUTHOR> Love the edit :)

We're actually big fans of the MailChimp pricing model (both pay-as-you go and monthly options), so it's a possibility.

About Bootstrap, the current demo already uses it for the non-visual elements (grid, etc), but we're still not sure about a whole-scale import yet. There are a lot of changes afoot with Bootstrap and Foundation (mobile-first being a big trend), so we're noodling on a ton of options.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> First of all: congrats on launching! 7 months is a _long_ time, it has to feel good!

A long time ago I built "squeeze page" manager which had an editor like this (it was simpler and more focused on content management). I sunk a lot of time into it. However, I ran into the same problem I bet you guys will run into: "the design tool chasm". On one end are simple tools for publishing on the web (Weebly and Wordpress) and on the other are professional tools (Photoshop and Sublime Text 2/Textmate). In between are tools that no-one really wants.

Basically, don't stop at the editor. Its a feature. Take a look at Unbounce or HubSpot for "marketing tool" inspiration and Weebly and Wordpress for "publishing tool" inspiration. Or, if you want to be used by professional designers, you'll need to go in a whole different direction (which is likely the one you are on now). Of course, if you have target customers that love this as is, their feedback vastly trumps mine. But never stop talking to your target customers (steal them from the big boys with your personal touch and solve their problems)! Good luck guys!

<comment><AUTHOR> Hey Bryan, thank you for the feedback! (Btw, we love Zapier!)

We're definitely looking far beyond just being an editor. What you see right now was an important pre-requisite to what we really wanted to build - <USER2> to share more on that soon.

<comment><USER6> Did/have you considered making this into a native application? I can see this competing with fireworks, but not if it's web based.

<comment><AUTHOR> We've considered it, and it's definitely possible (the core of Webflow right now is actually just Webkit), but we're currently focusing on making sure it works really well on the web.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Holy wow, great work guys! This is exactly the type of tool a lot of designers are looking for to bridge the gap between design and code (or at least get their feet wet before diving into it full-on). Hopefully this will get more visual artists using services like CSSDeck and Codepen, unless you plan on venturing into this realm yourselves to allow the community to create assets for everyone else to use - which would be fantastic.

Personally, because I still prefer writing from scratch, I'd use it after I thought I had a good framework coded up already just to quickly tweak it and try out some other ideas. Not sure how you plan on monetizing, but a tiered system for those of us who wouldn't use it to create from scratch would be appreciated, even though I'm not sure how you'd determine that (imports only?).

</comment><comment><USER8> This is really nice, but I just can't get too excited over web apps. Whether it's not having direct access to my source files, relying on the service to stay up (either from server or business issues), working when offline, not having access to OS-level services, the clunkiness and slowness compared to native, or the cognitive overhead of the app being inside another app, I think I'll always prefer desktop apps.

<comment><USER9> These limitations are all slowly disappearing as web standards are advancing fast to fill these gaps. I think soon we'll be able to give trusted web apps permission to read/write to our file systems and reach out to more OS-level interfaces that our browsers have access to.

Web apps also offer advantages over native apps, like zero installation, universal compatibility regardless of OS, and the ability for publishers to put updates/patches out instantly.

<comment><USER8> >universal compatibility regardless of OS

The browser becomes the OS for web apps, and in this case Webflow only supports one OS, Chrome.

<comment><USER9> Making changes to the code to bring support to new "OS's" in this case is easy as long we're talking about the webkit gang + Firefox, which makes up most users who will have interest in webapps.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> This is so well done. Really impressive. It seems like a great tool for both designers and developers. The more I develop responsive sites, the more I realize how difficult and tedious it is. Hopefully, this takes a lot of the pain away.

I'm also super jealous you have a brother that you can develop a product with. My brother is a systems guy and doesn't want to create software at all.

</comment><comment><USER8> Divshot vs. Easel vs. Webflow: Go.

<comment><USER11> Where is Froont <http://froont.com/> Adobe Reflow <http://html.adobe.com/edge/reflow/> Jetstrap <http://jetstrap.com/> ?

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> This is way better than any Adobe application I've ever used :) no joke. I'm very impressed with the UI components that's some masterpiece over there. I demand you to release a UI framework haha.

Also this is probably first HN thread that everyone seem to like what they saw, no nitpicking at all. This must tell you that you guys are on the right track.

</comment><comment><USER13> Lots of companies I know use a custom version of bootstrap as their styleguide/pattern library. I'd pay a lot for a functionality that can enable us to use our visually different bootstrap somehow to make dev ready UI. That would be the most important differentiating feature for me. None of these do that <http://playground.webflow.com/> <https://www.easel.io/> <http://froont.com/> <http://html.adobe.com/edge/reflow/> <http://jetstrap.com/> <http://www.divshot.com/>

<comment><USER14> Are you spying on us? Haha! We love the Bootstrap scaffolding, but their library is kinda boring IMO. That's why we are focusing so much on _custom_ design and giving designers/devs the tools to do it (easily). Shoot me an email so I can understand more what you're thinking.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Hey guys, looks really awesome. I built Jetstrap (<http://jetstrap.com/>) which is attacking the problem in a different way for probably a different type of user, but this is really impressive. Great work!

<comment><AUTHOR> We love Jetstrap! It was actually a big inspiration when we first started working on Webflow. Keep being awesome! :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> I found the scroll bars very frustrating. They are so small that I could not drag the bar around very easily (reminds me of default scroll bars in Ubuntu these days). The contrast is so bad between the part that is dragged and its background that it took me a few seconds to actually make out which is which. The contrast of some of the text being grey on a darker grey background in the right sidebar was hard on my eyes. That part wasn't as annoying to me as the scroll bars though.

I do like the idea of this. The functionality seems to be there.

</comment><comment><USER17> Incredibly well done and beautiful too - well done guys!

One route you may not want to get sidetracked down yet... I'd love compontents from this to use inside a CMS. Whether tools from the sidebar, or the easy WYSIWYG editor (if people could drag pre-prep'd text + photo layouts into the page, even better) -- I'd pay money for these, to build them into client sites.

Just a thought - everyone is inventing these standalone SaaS apps, but for all us doing custom software development - it'd be great to gain the benefit too.

</comment><comment><USER18> This looks fantastic, if it works smoothly it solves so many problems for me. Great work, great idea.

Have you thought at all about price point? IMO I wouldn't try to enter the hosting space, at least not yet. That's not the value for me. I think you have a great product in the works just as a front-end development platform. If it works as described, I'd put money down for it today (customer validation, check).

</comment><comment><USER19> This website actually crashes my macbook pro.

No really. I have this bug (verified by genius tech) [http://oleb.net/blog/2012/05/15-inch-mbp- mid-2010-crashing-t...](http://oleb.net/blog/2012/05/15-inch-mbp- mid-2010-crashing-to-black-screen/) which I haven't given to them for repair yet.

The Product button's visual transition repeatedly crashes my box. Otherwise, looks pretty cool :)

</comment><comment><USER20> Congrats guys. I haven't had a chance to check out the full thing yet (reading HN on my iPad) but from a quick glance it looks incredibly thorough and well- done.

I think there will always be a contingent of folks who prefer to hand-code this stuff, but there is a larger contingent of folks for whom a great set of visual design tools will be incredibly valuable. So good on ya and good luck.

<comment><USER21> I completely agree. Being able to hand-code doesn't mean it's always the easiest way to develop an idea.

And well done guys. Getting this far in 7 months is very impressive.

Having been part of the team that designed and built Typecast (<http://typecast.com>), it took us over a year to really get somewhere. Building browser-based design tools is way harder than it looks.

<comment><AUTHOR> Hi Paul, thanks for the kind words! You guys have built an awesome tool at Typecast! It truly is harder than it looks. Oh, and say hi to Jamie :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> Amazing work with this!

I'm working on something similar, so I know the monumental amount of work that must of gone into this app, really impressed and looking forward to seeing your other components.

Here's a screenshot of mine: <http://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.selfsamegames.com/tmp/screen1.jpg>

Congrats!

</comment><comment><USER23> Disclaimer, I'm not a designer and don't know much css. When I look at that wall of buttons I don't know how to use them to do what I want. I feel like if I knew css, I could probably code up what I want faster that pressing a bunch of buttons. Thoughts from designers/front end developers?

The preview tools are awesome though!

</comment><comment><USER24> "The Webflow CSS Playground currently works in Google Chrome and Chrome Canary."

Another fine example of how Chrome is the new IE6...

<comment><USER25> Had this conversation with a co-worker yesterday. As much as I love Chrome, they are heading right down that slippery slope. Soon they're going to figure out something better for drawing than Canvas or SVG, and they'll integrate that Chrome only technology. We'll come full circle when they name it VML.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> I'm both amazed and skeptical. This is some very nice work. I'm not sure if, in its current form, it would work well for all aspects of the design process. I think there are some trade offs compared to coding with text editors and dev tools.

I like having a tool that is super fast and responsive, and you lose some of that when it's embedded into the same page the site is being designed in. Having said that, it's easier to play with a design when you have an ui such as this. This mixes some of the advantages of photoshop with some of the advantages of designing in the browser. It's tricky to compete with the strengths of both tools and merge them into one.

</comment><comment><USER27> I am desperately waiting for full launch . And, I am ready to sign up for whatever price.

</comment><comment><USER28> I submitted this yesterday, but linked to the home page: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5396626>

</comment><comment><USER29> That is very impressive, congrats!

I'd really like to know the following: what process did you follow to create that 10min UI Tutorial video [1]?

Did you rehearse it and then record it all in one go? How did you memorize the script? Did you edit it with multiple takes of various scenes? Etc. Thanks so much.

[1] <http://vimeo.com/62227334>

<comment><USER14> Thanks! At first we thought it would be a good idea to record the whole tutorial in one pass, without edits. That didn't work out - it was too hard to keep it concise and focused. I ended up recording different sections of the script (5 total) and piecing them together. I recorded it all in the storage area of my apartment because it would have been too loud at the Hacker Dojo (where we have been working). After recording the audio and putting that together, I exported the audio and listened to it while recording my screen. The screen recording took 1 shot. I threw it over the audio and exported it. It's not perfect but it works!

Moral of the story: if you don't have a good sound room - find a storage room. :)

<comment><USER29> Thanks a lot for the reply, it's very helpful.

That sounds like a better workflow than what I've tried in the past (recording video first, audio second), I'll be sure to give it a shot next time.

I'm also curious if having a Vine-like ability to record while a button is pressed (or something) would make record-all-in-one-go more feasible. That way, you could take breaks while recording and think through next section before committing.

<comment><USER14> Sure thing! I don't know if hold-to-record would make it easier. I think recording it in sections would make it easier. For example, the beginning of the video was pretty easy and straightforward. Only when I started talking about selectors and derivation did it get hard to keep it flowing. So break it up and get a good mic. I'm not really happy with the macbook retina mic - change the angle or distance of your voice a bit and you your audience will be able to hear it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> Wow. This is incredibly well done.

Getting out of previous mode wasn't immediately apparent. Perhaps more of a tab on the hidden tray?

</comment><comment><USER31> I like the idea and it is very much a need of aspiring entrepreneurs who know little about tech. But I generally believe that it can cater to even those who know how to code good HTML and CSS to save time. Do let me know how well does your tool cater to generating mobile / responsive websites.

<comment><USER14> Responsive design is out #1 goal. On the playground.webflow.com you can either resize your browser or select the device on the left. Then all you have to do is design. All the responsive code is generated for you.

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> Awesome!! I tried to signup on your launch, but it says email is wrong. Fyi, I gave my personal email.

<comment><AUTHOR> Sorry about that! Can you send me an email (in my profile) so I can manually add you. I know the service we are using (KickoffLabs) does some sort of filtering in their code, and yours might be a false positive.

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> Definitely love the fact that it's pre-designed. I think the FireFox support + responsive functionality is the right direction to go as those are the things I hate worrying about when doing front end work. As a Firebug user, I think this definitely fits into my toolbox.

</comment><comment><USER34> This is awesome, bookmarked. This will help me because I've always struggled with CSS since I never sat down and actually learned it.

Just one thing - much of the text doesn't seem to render so smoothly. Is that intentional or is it just me...? Chrome on Windows fwiw.

<comment><AUTHOR> It's a known Chrome + Windows issue at the moment - still trying to figure out how to best resolve it without failing back to just web safe fonts.

</comment></comment><comment><USER35> Do you mind telling us about the stack? It's a pretty impressive UI. Feels very native.

<comment><AUTHOR> Sure! It's Node.js (pretty vanilla Express) on the backend, but most of the heavy lifting is in the browser. After trying Angular, Backbone and Ember, we settled on KnockoutJS for multiple reasons (that's a whole post in itself), the main one being performance (though some may find that statement shocking).

<comment><USER36> Good choice with Knockout. I use it in many apps because of how lightweight and easy to implement it is. I've hit some performance problems when tracking large number of observables but overall it can handles 99% of situations nicely.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yep, that's been our experience so far. Believe it or not, but there are north of 100,000 observables on the CSS Playground page alone, so we had to really optimize things. It's still sluggish in some areas, though.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> This is just GREAT! Made a tiny integrated app in under 5 min (including reading the docs). 100 times easier than using one of those odd-looking PDF classes (php dev here).

Start billing me, I want to retribute your effort. Thanks for this! :)

</comment><comment><USER38> As a UX engineer & designer, I think this looks great. I could imagine many non-engineers or non-designers using it. However, the right side seems to be too unintuitive even for me.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you for the feedback! It's definitely a big challenge to make things like this intuitive, and we know we have a ways to go. I'd love to know if you have any specific thoughts on how you would approach the UX there.

</comment></comment><comment><USER39> This is one of the first browser-based UIs for design that I'd actually use. Impressive stuff.

Question: Is there (or will there be) a way to edit the content of a clickable element (button, link)?

<comment><USER14> Thanks! That means a lot. There will definitely be a way to edit links and so forth. Webflow would be very limited without that IMO. We decided to release the CSS Playground to see how people would like the design tools. :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER40> I'm tempted to lick that interface, but alas am at work.

</comment><comment><USER41> This is cool, but I feel there still something missing with all these browser based editors. For some reason I still prefer sublimetext2+firebug

</comment><comment><USER42> Looks very nice, reminds me of <http://www.stylizerapp.com/> with added mobile/responsive

</comment><comment><USER43> Doesnt flow right on my htc desire. Both horizontal and vertical orientation. Seems like the width is always larger than the screen.

<comment><AUTHOR> Sorry about that - we're currently focusing on desktops and laptops for the app itself, and haven't added a fallback for other devices yet. If you'd like to see more of an overview that should look great on your device, check out www.webflow.com

</comment></comment><comment> mkr-hn My #1 holdup when thinking about a project is making a site for it. I could see paying for this if the price isn't prohibitive.

</comment><comment><USER44> It doesn't really work on an iPhone. Not super responsive to my trying to scroll. But I'm excited to check it out otherwise.

</comment><comment><USER45> Absolutely amazing guys. Most innovative, genuinely useful, and usable web app I've come across. Just... awestruck.

</comment><comment><USER46> This is great work! How do you plan on allowing people to add _new_ elements? With a toolbox on the side?

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes, primarily. You can see a small preview right now on the Library ("+" icon), but we chose to disable it for now so we can focus the demo on CSS.

</comment></comment><comment><USER47> This is amazingly cool. I have to say, the first of this tools that is will probably use! well done!

</comment><comment><USER48> Really interesting work. What about offering a hosted version, similar to what SqaureSpace offers?

</comment><comment> js-coder This looks awesome! :) I hope it'll be useful for designing my side project when it's ready.

</comment><comment><USER49> Wow, beautifully executed! Quite an achievement. Looking forward to trying it out.

</comment><comment><USER50> Very cool! Well done fellas, what's the plan going forward? Go after Weebly. ;)

</comment><comment><USER51> Incredibly useful and elegant tool. Well done Vlad (and bro)!

<comment><USER52> Is this the same vlad from vladstudio.com ? I always loved his work there. probably not considering vladstudio.com is more about photoshop designs and not about web development.

<comment><AUTHOR> Nope, though I do share your admiration of his work!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER53> Great job! I'd love to see more about the tech stack.

</comment><comment><USER54> This is great, nice job! What did you use to build?

</comment><comment><USER55> dope. can't wait to give it a whirl. and thank you for building tools that empower designers. we need more products like webflow.

</comment><comment><USER56> Beautifully done. Looking forward to the launch!

</comment><comment><USER57> Awesome execution guys and great design!

</comment><comment><USER58> Doesnt seem to work on android + chrome.

</comment><comment><USER59> Another "Web Flow": <http://www.springsource.org/spring-web-flow>

</comment><comment><USER60> Great UI. Awesome work!

<comment><USER14> Thanks! I can't tell you how many times we changed the UI for the different panels to make it super awesome.

</comment></comment><comment><USER61> This is just beautiful

</comment><comment><USER62> Very well done!

</comment><comment><USER63> quality is top notch, good work.

</comment><comment><USER64> buyout incoming, well done

</comment><comment><USER65> very nice, good job guys!

</comment><comment><USER66> this is pretty amazing

</comment><comment><USER67> Video ain't working on Chromium / Linux (no Flash, no Java).

I really hate that: on a lot of sites videos plays just fine on Chromium / Linux without Flash.

How hard is it to create a website which serves videos in several formats depending on the client?

<comment><AUTHOR> Hmm, sorry about that :( Can you try the direct Vimeo link? <https://vimeo.com/62227334>

</comment></comment><comment><USER68> As a non-web developer, what are the current most popular HTML+CSS WYSIWYG editors?

How do they compare to Webflow?</comment>


Dog Breed Identifier: from Keras program to Android app - <AUTHOR> https://habr.com/en/post/447732/ <comment><USER2> I have only ever written one blog post on medium. I don't know why, but it still gets hits: [https://medium.com/@thepulkitagarwal/deploying-a-keras- model...](https://medium.com/@thepulkitagarwal/deploying-a-keras-model-on- android-3a8bb83d75ca)

The reason I bring this up is because this page uses code directly from my blog post (the function print_graph_nodes). I was surprised to see that on this page, although there is no reference to my post here.

I remember wasting time on writing this function to ensure that the formatting (ie the '</comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment>=====INPUT</comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment>=') looked good :P This had actually helped me find a bug in my own code.

Happy to know I helped in some way :)

</comment><comment><USER3> My mom stumbled upon showing her dog at dog shows (she has a Norwegian Elkhound whose linage has won Westminster). It's a strange subculture with all the drama you'd imagine. One big source of drama is over the judging and I told my mom one should now be able to make an AI tool that can judge the a dog better than a human. You'd need to train not just on breed but on top of breed (there are all sorts of 'specs' for show dogs). This would cause an INSANE stir in the dog show community. If anyone wants to give it a try, let me know and Ill help!

<comment><USER4> Something like this would be tremendously useful at the Olympics, but taking the politics out will defeat the purpose for a lot of people.

<comment><USER5> It would only move the drama from the real time judging to the determination of the training data set.

<comment><USER3> I see it playing out in a different way. The AI judge would never be officially acknowledged. Instead, it would be this dark judge that people turn to when their favorite dog is misjudged. "See, the computer said he was the winner!". It would be a while before this group has the sophistication to blame the data set.

<comment><USER5> Maybe having 3 human judge and one AI judge would be something acceptable from the public. That is an interesting discussion anyway.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> This is a lovely tutorial. There aren't enough cross disciplinary tutorials like this that take you through what's necessary to finish a job. Very nice. Thank you.

</comment><comment><USER7> There's a codelab for folks looking for 15 min training on local cpu after simply replacing folders of flowers with whatever & simply running all commands mentioned here on an Android/iOS app in realtime [https://codelabs.developers.google.com/codelabs/tensorflow-f...](https://codelabs.developers.google.com/codelabs/tensorflow- for-poets-2-tflite/)

</comment><comment><USER8>
        catch (Exception e)
        {
            e.printStackTrace();
        }

This looks like an inadvisable move. Do android apps recover the data written to stderr anywhere or does this trace just go into the bit bucket? Why not let the unwind continue and if the application crashes, android can do its automagic bug reporting for you?

If Java requires you to catch the exception or declare a throw, then it seems like it should throw until you get to an outermost stack frame that's sane enough to handle it (open an error dialog box, retry, log the error, etc).

Sorry, the app and the idea are super cool, and keep up the good work. This is intended as constructive criticism.

<comment><USER9> That catch block is often generated automatically by android studio when you create a try block. Not addressing your comment about the general inadvisability of _merely_ logging the error, one can, as an alternative to standard error printing, replace

e.printStackTrace()

with something like

Log.e(TAG, "Caught and ignored an exception", e)

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> I believe Google Lens is the best example of this technology used practically.

I've used it to identify plants and insects when on walks. Really fun to use.

[https://lens.google.com/](https://lens.google.com/)

Feels very Star Trek.

<comment><USER11> I also use Google Lens all the time on my Pixel 2 phone to identify dog breeds, when I'm at dog parks with my pup. You just snap any photo, then click the "Google Lens" icon in the camera, and it identifies what you're looking for. Given a dog, it shows several potential dog bread matches, along with links to learn more about them.

<comment><USER12> > Given a dog, it shows several potential dog bread matches

I'm more interested in the wine pairings.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Kind of curious what it would make of the current foster puppy, where our best guess is "black" and possibly terrier cross, which is what the vet puts down when it's not obviously a large dog.

</comment><comment><USER14> This is like "Hot Dog" / "Not a Hot Dog". But the technology has advanced somewhat in the past 2 years. Very impressive.

<comment><USER15> I came here to post this. :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> Good. Better if there was an iphone version. It export pb format. Not sure the 2nd part workable on iOS side.

</comment><comment><USER17> I know this is HN and not Reddit, but I'm surprised by the lack of `Not Hotdog` references.

</comment><comment><USER18> I tried the app and it didn't successfully identify either of my dogs.

<comment><USER19> Welcome to the reality of today's "AI".

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> They (AI) promised us flying cars, instead we got Dog Breed apps.

</comment><comment><USER21> Shame most people are so obsessed with what breed their dog is. Would lead to less dogs (and cats) in shelters and having to be euthanized if they weren't.

<comment><USER22> the number of dogs in shelters has very little if no correlation to their obsession with particular breeds but instead their lack of understanding what pet ownership is about. Far too many expect animals to adapt fully to their needs and scheduled without regard for the animal's needs.

Many also pick up pets because of child pressure or simply fads. 101 Dalmatians was a shit show because of the number which ended up abandoned as people didn't realize that a large dog was an impact.

Rescue groups are full of dogs that are abandoned because they are too old, required expensive medication, developed eye issues, or worse. As in, far too many people are not mature enough to own pets. Sadly the same could be said for many having children as well.

<comment><USER23> So many Corgis and, lately, Samoyeds (big fluffy white dogs) are being bred now, it's upsetting. And the huge popularity of French Bulldogs is depressing to me because they have to be born by c-section.

People do want specific traits in dogs though, whether for hunting, for companionship, or agility etc. I just wish breeding dogs had better oversight and certification along with better custodianship of the breed's viability. (i.e. none of this more and more extreme visual traits that many "breed experts" judge against)

Especially when you understand just how sentient these beings are. Euthanizing them shouldn't be so widespread.

We have serious responsibilities to another species that we are not maintaining, we should be doing better for our dogs.

<comment><USER24> What's wrong with Samoyeds? I understand corgis (dwarfism) and bulldogs (breathing problems) and american german shepherds (hip problems). A quick internet search didn't bring anything up regarding samoyeds and even says they have 12 - 14 life span and breed has been around for a long time.

<comment><USER23> Increased demand leads to backyard breeders who may not have any goal except for churning out puppies. Hip dysplasia and various pancreatic/liver/kidney issues should be proactively monitored for and susceptible dogs should not be bred.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> why is it an android app instead of a web page? makes no sense ...</comment>


Apply early for Y Combinator if you want to be considered - <AUTHOR> https://ntucker.true.io/ntucker/apply-early-for-ycombinator-if-you-want-to-be-considered/

<comment><USER2> I don't think that was the case for the fellowship.

Applied after the 2 days with my team! Didn't get a view on anything not even a click. Again, yeah it might be the case that it was nothing interesting to them and just skipped it. But to be honest it's a bit disappointing to see no indication that someone have actually looked at 2 days of work.

Because in a startup life, 2 days (48 hours) would be enough to build and ship a feature to a customer.

I agree though with the regular YC applications, I've heard that advice more than a few times from past alums.

</comment><comment><USER3> I also applied at the last hour.

My video got one full length view, it says from Texas. My demo wasn't signed into, don't know about hits because it doesn't have analytics. In any case there's nothing to see before signing in!

It was a very nice lead, and one it's been very useful in following. It spurred me to get a demo up and forced me to explain my idea in less than one minute of speech and very few written words. All these things have been very valuable learning experiences and have put my project in a better state now.

6500 applications about very early stage ideas, none of which have traction. Imagine trying to pick a few hundred (?) prospects from that pool for interview. Statistically speaking they'd probably be more likely to pick winners by throwing away 75% at random, and giving that much extra consideration to the remaining pool, such is the level of noise introduced having to try and read and consider 6500 applications in such a short amount of time.

Who knows, maybe that's precisely what happened, maybe not so explicitly, but perhaps they'd already picked 95% of their interviewees upon reading the first 25% of applications, so late applications were, statistically, not on the same playing field. I agree with your conclusion there, I think they even say it themselves, strongly implying this is the case (why wouldn't it be?).

All in all, for others in this boat, don't be disappointed or annoyed that your application doesn't seem like it was given much consideration. It couldn't have been in the end. This was an experiment, it was free money, the application pool included remote teams and was therefore global. No traction or even a demo was required, just a short application form and video. Of course the intense competition was going to wash your idea into a sea of noise. Who with an idea they were working on fairly seriously wouldn't apply? Many, many, many great ideas by brilliant people will have been overlooked because of the noise, it's nobody's fault, just a statistical inevitability.

Your project is in the same position now as it was before you heard about this, actually probably a bit more advanced with the extra weeks, plus the application process giving you a bit of a kick up the proverbial. You've lost nothing but a potential opportunity, and there are plenty more out there.

Crack on!

</comment><comment><USER4> It's nice that you related some of your experience to others.

The "conclusion" seems outrageously obvious though and I'm not quite sure why you focused on it.

In almost any competitive application process it benefits you to apply earlier if your goal is to receive a more thorough review.

Perhaps you can talk a bit more about other factors or advice on what you felt you should have done better.

<comment><USER5> A properly competitive process wouldn't start the review until the deadline, and would randomize the order of submission.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> I've been reading about so many startups on here that I read this as App-ly and thought it was the name of a new app/startup</comment>


Python(x,y) - Python for Scientists - <AUTHOR> http://www.pythonxy.com/foreword.php <comment><AUTHOR> A selection of python libraries for scientific computing.

All-in-one installer for Windows.

</comment><comment><USER2> How does this compare to SAGE? <http://www.sagemath.org/index.html>

<comment><USER3> And SciPy?

<comment><AUTHOR> _Python(x,y) has five main features:_

* _collecting scientific-oriented Python libraries and development environment tools (e.g. Eclipse plugins) ;_

* _collecting almost all free related documentation ;_

* _providing a quick guide to get started in Python / Qt / Eclipse ;_

* _configuring Eclipse to be ready to develop in Python, and adjusting some Windows parameters (file type association, windows explorer integration, ...) ;_

* _providing an all-in-one setup program, so the user can install or uninstall all these packages and features by clicking on one button only._

</quote> <http://www.pythonxy.com/features.php></comment></comment></comment>


How 'ghost corporations' are funding the 2016 election - <AUTHOR> https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/how-ghost-corporations-are-funding-the-2016-election/2016/03/18/2446e526-ed14-11e5-a6f3-21ccdbc5f74e_story.html <comment><USER2> I must say that I am not a fan of anyone still running for president, but it has been extremely satisfying to see how many millions of dollars are being thrashed across the rocks by Donald Trumps rise in the Republican Party. Everyone that's dropped out represents millions and millions in wasted donation dollars.

I once heard a trump supporter interviewed say "good or bad were using trump to destroy the established Republican Party". it looks like it's working quite nicely to me. Let's get another one for the other side of the political aisle.

<comment><USER3> Classic expression of that is [https://twitter.com/empireofjeff/status/632271934907138048](https://twitter.com/empireofjeff/status/632271934907138048)

Dick Brisket @EmpireOfJeff

 _You "conservative" "pundits" still don't get it: Trump isn't our candidate. He's our murder weapon. And the GOP is our victim.

We good, now?_

He's also a body blow to the Republican consultant class which for many years has been paid handsomely for less than stellar results, this election's prime example being Mike "Set all our donor money on fire." Murphy ([http://hotair.com/archives/2016/01/07/the-saddest- political-...](http://hotair.com/archives/2016/01/07/the-saddest-political-ad- ever/)), who showed a $100+ million warchest is _nothing_ without voters.

On the other side, Sanders isn't what you'd call a Democratic Party establishment type, seeing as how he joined the party only a few months ago (was an independent who caucused with the Democrats for decades), and nonetheless gave Hillary fits despite how even more thoroughly the nomination was wired for her than _¡Jeb!_.

But that whole situation isn't hardly as existential for the party's establishment as the Republican one is, where Trump is showing that the "rules of the game" aren't what the whole US political establishment has been insisting, and we don't expect "business as usual" to follow, whatever the specific outcomes of this election.

<comment><USER4> I do expect the same "'business as usual' to follow, whatever the specific outcomes of this election."

It is very hard to imagine the legislative process would change much even if Trump is the president. Probably he would be muss less beholden to the typical political power brokers (mainly bought lobbyists for all sorts of interests).

But for any legislation I would expect things to be very much the same.

He would likely use the executive branch much more aggressively than even Nixon or Bush and Obama in the ongoing spying nation state efforts they both aggressively promoted.

In a Trump administration we would be likely be even more reliant on government employees standing up to unlawful orders but given the recent history with spying and all the very questionable government actions undermining constitutional protections, current (access to spying apparatus for personal gain, prurient interests etc.) and past abuses of police power (Hoover etc.), past history with Nixon, past history with McCarthy, etc. that is a very dangerous hope to rely on. But it also is more a matter of degree given that all the examples given are under the traditional/establishment Democrat and Republican party rule in the last 60 years.

<comment><USER3> _It is very hard to imagine the legislative process would change much even if Trump is the president_

I don't find it hard to imagine at all; for example:

Trump to the American public in 2018: "Please elect this slate of high energy candidates and turn out of office these traitors to the American people."

With of course his preceding dealings with the Congress based upon such threats; what are they and the rest of the establishment going to do, call him Hitler again?

Do you remember how Reagan managed to get his programs passed by a House lead by a Communist sympathizer who said he was "the most ignorant man who had ever occupied the White House", "Herbert Hoover with a smile", and "a cheerleader for selfishness," and who's "policies meant that his presidency was 'one big Christmas party for the rich.'" (All quotes from Wikipedia's article on Tip O'Neil, and there's worse out there.)

The rest of your posting is on issues of importance but that don't even hit the top 5, probably top 10 of what the people who are supporting Trump care about ... especially if the government is "fundamentally transformed" in to one that isn't trying to destroy them.

As for those government employees you base some hopes on, anyone who genuinely wants to change things will abolish the current "civil 'servant'" system and return us to an updated spoils system where they're actually held accountable for their actions. Given how many Baby Boomers in it are retiring right now, it wouldn't even be all that messy.

Now, I'm not saying this is what Trump will do, but it's just the barest of what he _could_ do if he's not accepting "business as usual" with its inevitable fatal end for the country.

And while we're talking about the branches of the Federal government, clipping the judiciary's wings with the end of the last sentence of paragraph 2 of section 2 of article III shows our Founders had a clue about its dangers.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Online advertising is now dead - <AUTHOR> http://www.scripting.com/stories/2008/11/13/onlineAdvertisingIsNowDead.html

<comment><USER2> The other day, Dave Winer broke his Cuisinart coffee machine and was, within 5 minutes, able to replace it on Amazon. Therefore, online advertising is now dead.

<comment><USER3> Also, he put annoying # images after every paragraph.

<comment><USER4> I frankly wanted to link to his p5. I am very grateful that he allowed me to do so. I didn't know I wanted to link to p5 until he showed me that it was available.

<comment><USER3> Ha, I didn't realize those were anchors. I just found the image annoying.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I was expecting a more thought out post from such a strong title.

I don't think it makes sense to support this argument by correlating the value of advertising with the health of the economy or whatever he was trying to do. He should have left the economy out of the equation if he wanted a stronger case.

I would argue that online advertising will become more and more accurate with its targeting methods, which in turn will raise its value as opposed to destroying it.

<comment><USER6> I believe he has made the point before that at the ultimate extreme of targeted advertising... it's not advertising anymore, it's just providing you with a product you want. Which his example is an example of; information so targeted that it goes beyond being an "ad".

<comment><USER4> That's silly. It's still within the scope of advertising.

Question: does a company like Cuisinart have to pay to list their product in Amazon?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Display advertising had been dying a slow and painful death for quite a while now. CTRs for banners are lower and lower. Yet when I see ads on weblogs, on Myspace and Facebook it still strikes me how much of this advertising is still just display ads.

At the end of the last boom Overture (purchased by Yahoo in 2003, right as the economy began to emerge from the bust) and later Google brought us a new form of advertising which didn't even look like advertising to begin with: search advertising. Overture's original goal was "sponsored search": the more you bid for a term, the more relevant should the term be in search results.

Perhaps with this bubble dying a new form of advertising will emerge or has _already emerged_ \- which we won't initially (or can't yet) identify as advertising.

Brand advertising too has less of a future on the web: search advertising (especially with Google and their consideration of relevance of the ad and not just the bid value - something which didn't exist in Overture's model until Yahoo's Project Panama) enabled the "little guy", the local small businesses, the webmasters to sell their products to an audience that was looking to them.

It's folly too say "all that can invented [in advertising] is already invented". Traditional PPI/PPC banner/display advertising is drying up and rightly so (it encouraged a reductionist thinking, treating users as captive "eye balls" as opposed to customers of a product; it encouraged mee-too copycat websites which called themselves "start-ups"). Yet I wouldn't be quick to discount the possibility of something entirely different taking its place.

</comment><comment><USER8> As long as attention is a limited resource people will be willing to pay for it. As long as people are willing to pay for attention (eye-balls) there will be advertising.

Perhaps not in its current form (banner ads, text links) but I don't see this going away anytime soon. I generally don't agree with Winer but his pieces are usually more thought out than this.

I agree with other commenters that bringing up the economy weakened his argument. I'm no economist but when times are touch elasticity and neccessity have a lot to do with what people spend money on.

Advertising is elastic and not a neccessity, its generally a means to grow your business. People are not worried about growing their business in a recession, they're worried about staying alive.

</comment><comment><USER9> I think a lot of advertising is subliminal, especially branding.

Coke bombards you with ads because it wants to promote coke as part of your lifestyle. If you don't click on their ad banner right now, that's fine. You're more likely to recognize coke though at the grocery store.

The article also doesn't take into account that advertising is not static. Like a cat and mouse game, it evolves as its audience evolves.

In the future, advertising may be more "guerilla" or underground. Also, advertising has the capability to go "viral" now. In a matter of days, they can spread a meme across the internets. :-)

<comment><USER10> "Also, advertising has the capability to go "viral" now. In a matter of days, they can spread a meme across the internets. :-)"

True, but a lot easier said than done, haha.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Even if the logic here made sense, there are about 50 billion data points a year ($$$) that beg to disagree. Data trumps arguments always.

<comment><USER12> > Data trumps arguments always.

I wish that was always true.

<comment><USER13> Facts always trump arguments in the end. The problem is that we may not always like the end.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> I hate link bait articles like this. Even if the article ends up being good, the title is such a click deterrent for me.

<comment><USER15> Me too, but look ... 37 comments including mine. Sad.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> I don't think advertising is dead for everyone, only people like him. I am rarely influenced by ads. I want something, I read reviews, I shop around, I buy it. Not good for advertisers.

However, most people don't care that much and will take the first thing that looks shiny to them. Advertising is a great way to make people look at shiny things, and I think it will remain profitable as a result.

</comment><comment><USER17> "But I chose this brand of coffee maker because people who had one really liked it, and the other brands, their users didn't like them so much."

Well, lots of ads say or infer that people who have X really liked it. I think marketers just hope you'll get your memory confused over whether you heard real people say they liked it or whether it was a more or less obvious ad.

</comment><comment><USER18> The more niched your content, the less accurate that statement becomes.

</comment><comment><USER19> Maybe we're getting closer to a time when advertising is not an instant revenue source for any site generating lots of traffic, but companies aren't going to stop wanting to get their name in front of people. Therefore: sites wanting to monetize through ads = maybe dead in the future. Online advertising = far from dead.

</comment><comment><USER20> I think that Google is competing with itself. After all, suppose Google succeeds in building the perfect search engine, that always finds exactly what you are looking for. In that case, it seems as if there would be no place left for advertising (certainly not what we see today, with ads looking almost like the first search result).

However, maybe there will still be advertising, we'll just call it differently.

Or it will just be the "people who liked x also liked y" thing. For example, if someone googles for a coffee maker, he gets to see ads for coffee. I am pretty sure Google already does this.

</comment><comment><USER21> Online advertising is just an abstraction to describe a very large and broad set of activities: getting large corporations (and even small businesses) to promote their products to potential buyers. It is the corporate instinct to drive up demand for products. This activity cannot be shaken by any recession and will forever be a source of income for those who hold the attention of an audience.

As long as consumers exist, advertising will always serve as a platform for manufacturing demand.

</comment><comment><USER22> Well, I think it's sure to piss off a lot of companies building shaky business models off ads that no body clicks on (and that is happening), but I do think this is a bit over the top.

</comment><comment><USER23> I think Mr Winer forgets the element of competition. Advertising is not just about highlighting good products it's also teaching consumers to pick your good products over your competitor's good product.

Is generic Ibuprofen different from Advil? I think not.

</comment><comment><USER24> Online advertising changes. Product ads are headed towards blending with recommendation engines (this is what the whole "targeting" is about), branding ads can stay where they are or (more likely) go in the directions of "your friends like X".

</comment><comment><USER25> Advertising will continue to live as long as their is imperfect information and tastes that can be branded. Hate these titles so much.

</comment><comment><USER26> Advertising forgotten after the economy makes a comeback? Try telling that to Google right after the economy picked up post-911!

</comment><comment><USER27> Frontier has been dead for five years, but that hasn't stopped Dave. To say he's out of touch is an understatement.

</comment><comment><USER28> Online advertising is dead. FreeBSD is dead. Lisp is dead. Linux is dead. Windows is dead.

 _yawn_

</comment><comment><USER29> this is a popular position to take now that the big G has fallen below $300.

until you can tell me what the <viable> alternative is, ads aren't going anywhere.

</comment><comment><USER30> SEO is dead. Advertising is dead. Linkbait is living.

</comment><comment><USER31> Online advertising: "I just work hard."

</comment><comment><USER32> I do not agree advertising is dead but it has changed from a impressions and click based model to new performance basis cost per action model</comment>


Is There Any Room for the Not-Passionate Developer? - <AUTHOR> http://getpocket.com/redirect?url=http%3A%2F%2Fphilippe.bourgau.net%2Fis-there-any-room-for-the-not-passionate-developer%2F&h=be1a2f8961529a687c9ca5b940ed35a14fa577b780e4b44ebe04c098c3063f35 <comment><USER2> I think Brian Dyson said it best:

"Imagine life as a game in which you are juggling some five balls in the air. You name them – Work, Family, Health, Friends and Spirit and you're keeping all of these in the air.

You will soon understand that work is a rubber ball. If you drop it, it will bounce back. But the other four balls – Family, Health, Friends and Spirit – are made of glass. If you drop one of these; they will be irrevocably scuffed, marked, nicked, damaged or even shattered. They will never be the same. You must understand that and strive for it.

Work efficiently during office hours and leave on time. Give the required time to your family, friends and have proper rest. Value has a value only if its value is valued."

</comment><comment><USER3> It's easy for people to be too passionate about a particular design decision or implementation which can cause all sorts of unnecessary drama and friction in a team. I think this is where passionate becomes unprofessional. Having spirited arguments about these things is necessary to shake things out of a design and help everyone understand every facet of a problem. But at some point you have to stop beating a dead horse and make a decision. Dwelling too long can cause factions to become entrenched in their own position and for people to take engineering decisions personally. This is poison for any startup. A house divided against itself cannot stand.

There is something incredibly relieving about being able to let it go and to move forward working on things or directions you may disagree with. Or "how I stopped worrying and learned to love the bomb".

Work is work, you won't always be having fun or doing something interesting. There are many things that are impossible to be passionate about especially when consulting. A large part of professionalism is buckling down and being productive on dull tasks or decisions you disagree with. Showing that you are capable of this will earn you a great deal of respect from the people you disagreed with. Turning a potential enemy into a colleague who will stand up for you much farther down the road. My ability to do this over the last 10 years has earned me more friends and opportunities in the industry than anything else.

It also lets you go home at the end of the day and enjoy yourself without some silly design decision eating you alive when you are supposed to be relaxing and recharging.

One more thing to add; If you work in a location like SV with seemingly infinite alternatives and people. It's easy to say "fuck that guy" and just quit to go work somewhere else. There is a good chance your adversary will never get handed your resume and asked what they think about you. I live in Anchorage where the professional community is exceedingly small and you have to work on what is available even if it sucks and is uninteresting. Up here having these skills is a necessary long term survival trait because you inexorably will run into the same people again and again.

</comment><comment><USER4> In my opinion no. Passion is always critical for a good team. But passion doesn't mean you have to work 60 hours or do home projects. You just have to come to work eager a d excited to learn and grow.

<comment><USER3> Having a team composed only of passionate developers is great until there is a big disagreement.

<comment><USER4> Strong opinions lightly held. It's been working for where I work for 3 years now. Maturity helps. And the desire to find the best solution, not the solution you came up with.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Previous discussion: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12207970](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12207970)</comment>


Ask HN: How do you visualise your business? - <AUTHOR> I work two days a week on my own business by myself. My main income is a SaaS product and I have a number of other projects including websites and apps (apis) which contribute to my income. The income currently fills the gap of being an employee 3 days a week.<p>I would be interested to hear about how folk visualise their business. What do you go back to remind yourself of what your business is about? I don't think I'm talking about project management. The analogy of a map, rather than directions on how to get there, comes to mind. <comment><USER2> Not sure if this is what you're looking for, but Superset [1] is a pretty cool open source project for creating BI visualizations. You can create pretty much any kind of chart type.

I think it's useful for monitoring both technical metrics and higher-level business metrics like MRR.

[1]: [https://github.com/apache/incubator- superset](https://github.com/apache/incubator-superset)

</comment><comment><USER3> Clayton Christensen (of "The Innovator's Dilemma"'s fame) co-authored the following piece. The concept is "Job to be Done".

[https://hbr.org/2016/09/know-your-customers-jobs-to-be- done](https://hbr.org/2016/09/know-your-customers-jobs-to-be-done)

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks, I'll have a read.</comment></comment>


Buying a Next Gen Console? - <AUTHOR>

I am not, at least for this year... Backward compatibility killed it for me. <comment><USER2> I will. I don't care about backwards compatibility. In fact, I'd prefer that they completely cut the cord and make titles only for the new consoles which truly take advantage of their capabilities.</comment>


Show HN: big big tweet - a tool for Twitter that can span multiple tweets - <AUTHOR>

Hi.
I made this last weekend -  http://bigbigtweet.appspot.com, and thought i would share it. Looking for feedback, thoughts. Built on top of goog app engine, python, yui3.
I also wrote a post about my experience making it - http://meeech.amihod.com/43210729 <comment><AUTHOR> links for easy clicking:

site: <http://bigbigtweet.appspot.com>

post about making the site: <http://meeech.amihod.com/43210729></comment>


Real-world applications of mathematics, by arxiv subject area? - <AUTHOR> http://mathoverflow.net/questions/2556/real-world-applications-of-mathematics-by-arxiv-subject-area <comment><USER2> This is also useful in the opposite direction (learning what mathematical theorems are applicable to the problem you are currently facing).</comment>


Andreessen Horowitz is opening an office in SF - <AUTHOR> https://techcrunch.com/2019/03/11/andreessen-horowitz-is-making-the-move-to-san-francisco-at-long-last/ <comment><USER2> I was recently grabbing dinner with a group of CEOs and the unanimous sentiment was that they would never take money from a16z (3 founders had already and one other had a terrible experience with them during the pitch). It seemed to come down to how combative and unhelpful the partners were. I am sharing because it was a bit of a surprise to me (bootstrapped) and I think it's important to share insight into VCs—-there is so much opacity for such an important decision.

<comment><USER3> It's well known a16z guys will immediate ban anyone on Twitter the moment for ... anything. I am not talking of trolling, abuse -- just polite disagreement, instant ban. Never seen any other organization doing similar and so consistently.

<comment><USER4> How a16z manages their social media doesn't seem very relevant to founders who are deciding on VCs. Could you clarify if you disagree?

<comment><USER3> It's their founders personal account that blocks everyone and I am reasonable sure it's a personality trait.

<comment><USER5> Andreesen blocked me, a little nobody, when I had a different opinion than him when he was supporting an argument for an investment in some kind of app targeted at young people in Southeast Asia. The app was supposed to aid them in their entrepreneurial endeavors (or somethign like that). His comment was something along the lines that the app would be highly utilized because just about every young person in Southeast Asia is entrepreneurial. I commented that that's not what I see in Thailand where everywhere I go I see nothing but kids making silly conversation and sharing selfies. He called me a racist and blocked me, which was particularly amusing because my son is one of those kids. So could I be racist toward my own son?

<comment><USER6> Sounds like he may have insecurity and anger issues, not being able to process/let emotion settle and has to take some sort of action to 'protect' himself from what he perceives as too strong of a potential trigger. That certainly will make a person fragile, also may lead them to be hyper-confident in their beliefs, perception of passion and confidence is attractive to many people who don't analyze situations deeply.

<comment><USER5> It seems to me to be more that a16z just wants to squelch anything that doesn't support their agenda. They are always talking up their latest startup no matter how flimsy it may be. Anything critical said about the regard as hate speech. A place like Hacker News is anathema to them since people here are more often critical and less often buy the hype. Which is why they call it Hater News.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> It is surreal to commute and work in SF. I take BART or Caltrain to work and amazed every day to see hundreds of thousands of engineers, product managers, sales people, data scientists get off in Embarcadero and walk to their destination. If you are in tech, it is incredibly energetic. I play "backpack bingo", where I try to identify someone's employer from their backpack

<comment><USER8> > If you are in tech, it is incredibly energetic.

I've never understood this. I'd like to be surrounded by people that don't all do the same thing as me. I want to meet new and interesting people, not expand the bubble around me. I already interact with everyone at work most of my day, now I have to interact with people that fit that mold even when I'm not working?

Different strokes for different folks, but SF has always felt like a bit of a monoculture to me.

<comment><USER9> It's great when you're fresh out of school, single, and want to bury yourself in the work.

It's unbelievably annoying after a few years when you're just trying to have dinner with your wife without overhearing someone talking about raising a round at the table next to you.

<comment><USER10> Exactly, after moving to Berlin from SF I couldn't believe that I could overhear conversations about art and music and a thousand other things and not the usual talk about what VC you met and how much X company is valued. Incredibly refreshing

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I wonder how much of this is just because of the failure of Bay Area-wide fast public transit.

BART never made it to the peninsula and electrification of Caltrain is taking its sweet time. The only remaining option seems for everyone to crowd into SF :/.

<comment><USER12> Insane we are talking about electrifying a train line in 2019 in the tech capital of America.

<comment><USER13> Population and density have been low enough that a of peninsula people own cars.

<comment><USER12> Don't think that's it. Even Brisbane (Queensland) electrified its suburban rail in the late 1970s.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Almost every big tech IPO of 2019 (Uber, Lyft, Pinterest, Slack, Postmates, Airbnb, Instacart) is headquartered in SF. It's undeniable that the center of silicon valley is slowly shifting north.

<comment><USER15> Back in the day, the name Silicon Valley came from the fact that most of the companies worked with actual silicon. Most of them were based near Mt. View because 1) The land was a lot cheaper than SF and 2) Most of the capital was there.

The "new" SV is north because all the consumer websites set up shop in SF since all they needed was office and not chip fabs, and they were mostly being worked on by younger folks who wanted to live in the city proper.

Now we have a bifurcated ecosystem where all the hardware folks (and companies) are still in the south bay (and don't kid yourself, there are a ton of hardware startups down here still) and all the consumer stuff is up north.

You just hear about the consumer stuff more because most of the silicon companies are B2B.

<comment><USER16> Facebook, Google, Apple, Yahoo, Adobe, Intuit, and Microsoft & Amazon's Bay Area offices are all in SV.

I'd really divide it by era. Anything founded before 2005 is in Silicon Valley; after that is in San Francisco. I actually think YCombinator is a big driver of that; they funded younger startup founders (largely Millenials rather than Gen-Xers) who wanted to live in the city.

<comment><USER17> Actually Amazon's offices in SF are split between the valley and downtown, depending on what they're working on. I think hardware and embedded is out in the valley. Software / services are more in SF. And that's not counting Twitch which is in the Financial.

<comment><USER16> A9 (Amazon's search & advertising subsidiary) is in Palo Alto. That's the office I'm most familiar with, although perhaps that's because of the revolving door of high-level employees between it and Google.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> I am hearing that startups are moving out of SF because it is too expensive.

Can anybody explain the strategy here? I realise that funding is mostly centralised in SF, but this still feels weird to me.

<comment><USER19> In a way, startups are leaving SF BECAUSE startups are coming to SF. That is, when there is a large influx of capital-rich startups, startups w/o capital (or who are capital sensitive) are forced out.

Overall, there's a net in-flow of startups into SF, and so, the VC's follow.

<comment><USER20> Reminds me of the popular quote: "Nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded."

<comment><USER21> You can interpret it as "a _small fraction_ of people go because the _absolute number_ of people is larger than capacity"

Stated like this it becomes obvious we need to pay attention to the denominator.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> I think the millennials are settling into better jobs like Google and Facebook and the younger people are flocking to startups. That might be the reason why startups are now focusing on SF rather than SJ area.

<comment><USER23> I thought Gen Z was just entering college? They're in the job market already?

<comment><USER16> Yes, Gen Z (whatever they're called - I've heard "Homelanders" and "iPod generation", neither of which really feels right) is just entering college. The people entering the workforce now are younger Millenials.

The Millenial generation really has three sub-generations: Xennials (1981-1986, distinguished because they can a. remember the Cold War and b. graduated into a decent economy, so they don't have the economic despair of the rest of Millenial generation), older Millenials (1987-1992, these are the folks who were totally fucked over by the Great Recession), and younger Millenials (1991-2000, young enough that they could actually adapt to the post-2009 economic conditions and make life-choices accordingly). Almost all Millenial billionaires are actually Xennials: Mark Zuckerburg, Brian Chesky, Drew Houston, Kevin Systrom, Mary Kate & Ashley Olsen, et al. The older Millenials are who people usually think of as "Millenials" (grew up expecting a lot, graduated when not a lot was to be found). There's a marked difference in behavior with young Millenials: they are much more studious, much more career-focused, more of them went into STEM careers, they're the ones driving the FIRE & cryptocurrency movements, etc.

<comment><USER24> Your years for 'xennials' don't match what I understood and what I mostly see when googling it right now. My understanding has been for those born between 1977 and 1983. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xennials](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xennials).

Also, this group of xennials might not have graduated in a good economy (i.e. around 2001)

<comment><USER9> I graduated from college and moved to SF in the mid-00's and it was still a ghost town after the bubble burst. In hindsight, it was the perfect time to come, because rent was still very depressed and my generation didn't have any of the bubble scar tissue.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> In the article about Sam Altman stepping down, it mentioned that YC was moving to the city as well. I guess the center of the universe is less and less actually SV.

<comment><USER26> I think the center of SV is becoming SF actually.

<comment><USER27> Perfectly said.

In the 80s and 90s, the "center" of SV was Mountain View and surrounding cities, with the VCs mostly in Menlo/Palo Also.

In the last 10 years, as companies have decided to increasingly be based out of SF, the radius of SV is expanding, and a lot of that expansion is to the north + east: Richmond, Concord, Walnut Creek, San Rafael, Mill Valley - making SF the center of the action.

<comment><USER28> > the radius of "the bay area"/SV is expanding

The radius of the Bay Area hasn't changed, "Silicon Valley" has just moved to align more with the Bay Area rather than being an overlapping region to the South. All the places you point to as "new expansion" for "the Bay Area" have always been part of the SF Bay Area which SF has always been part of.

<comment><USER27> Fair point - updated my original comment to remove the expansion of the "bay area."

<comment><USER29> Also, the South Bay is becoming/has become enterprise-land. As Silicon Valley startups increasingly aim towards the consumer market, it makes sense that they would locate themselves in the biggest media/consumer/tourist hub.

(Even the biggest enterprise companies can be SF-based, though – SalesForce, for example...)

<comment><USER30> I don't know if that's true. A lot of B2B SaaS companies are in San Francisco, and I can't see a lot of them moving (Okta, New Relic, Twilio all come to mind). That said there are A LOT of old school enterprise companies in the South Bay / Peninsula.

<comment><USER29> B2B SaaS companies are in large part about addressing the enterprise without being Oracle or friends, though!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> There's quite a lot of large startups in that area that A16Z has (or had) a stake in and would only be a block away from. (e.g. Lyft, Okta, and GitHub)

<comment><USER32> Does anyone other than Microsoft have any stake in GitHub anymore?

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> The "Peak California" article seems very appropriate right now.

<comment><USER34> Nah, it's just a repetition of predictions that people have been making for decades. It has nothing new to offer -- just the same old tropes about California's inevitable decline and the rise of alternative Silicon Valleys in other states that never materialize.

</comment></comment><comment><USER35> RIP Say Media (/ Six Apart / Videoegg). We used to work in that building.

<comment><USER36> Did Say Media finally kick the bucket? I remember around four or five years ago they stopped paying publishers and had to make payments with a cash flow injection. Hundreds of thousands later they made everyone whole, but damn. Specialized ad industry did not treat them well.

<comment><USER37> Their web site is still around with a 2019 copyright date, so they appear to be hanging on. I used to work at the building just north of that one (at Realm, the mobile database company, which was located between Say and Docker's offices), and I used to be a big fan of Movable Type, so I was always sort of curious about them.

Say's web site, incidentally, now lists their SF office as 442 Post Street, Suite 901. From their job listings, I get the impression that most of the action is in the NYC and the Portland offices now, though.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> I used to live in California near A-H and the traffic at that location is easily some of the worst traffic they could possibly encounter on 280. I believe the local transportation divisions outright list their nearby 280/Sand Mill exchange as a critical priority to revamp. Imagine a 30 minute line of cars where someone unsafely cuts in every second you wait.

<comment><USER39> ah, that's because you don't know about the back way through Whiskey Hill Road to Cañada that you should take from 5-6:30 PM if you are going north. It's not bad if you are headed south. A-H is so far up the hill that it doesn't make much of an impact for them though

<comment><USER38> I was definitely only talking about that traffic with respect to A-H, since this is a post about A-H, to try and offer some context for people who haven't experienced that for _why_ A-H might not favor what seems like prime real estate during non-rush-hour hours.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> Their current office is in a pretty nice place, but it sure did feel like it was far from the action.

</comment><comment><USER15> > (The park was known until January as AT&T Park; it has since been renamed > Oracle Park.)

I've always called it Pac Bell park to avoid confusion.

<comment><USER41> I like "the ballpark" best, that name is timeless so won't matter which company buys up naming rights next.

<comment><USER15> Yeah but then I don't know if you're talking about SF or Oakland. :)

<comment><USER41> Technically it'd be the "Oakland Coliseum," although I've never actually heard anyone else refer to it as that as I don't know too many folks who enjoy sports in Oakland, or I'd just call it "the Oakland Ballpark" to differentiate heh. Once the "the ballpark" in Mission Bay starts hosting games then I think we'll have to resort to alternative naming schemes but I'm sure something better than "Chase Center" will be figured out.

<comment><USER15> > although I've never actually heard anyone else refer to it as that as I > don't know too many folks who enjoy sports in Oakland

That's what I call it. But I spent eight years living in the East Bay, so that may be why.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> "One of the last top-tier venture firms to resist coming to San Francisco" ... can anyone confirm it's true that most others already have an SF office?

<comment><USER9> That's true, but you'll find that most of the senior GP's still work on Sand Hill, because the vast majority live down there.

</comment></comment><comment><USER43> 1 month later: "We really didn't expect how expensive rent was. Sadly, we must announce that our funds have been depleted and we're officially out of the investing game."

</comment><comment><USER44> Weren't everybody supposed to start moving to Oakland?

<comment><USER27> What's your point? People are moving to Oakland, and it's a lot easier to commute from Oakland to SF than from Oakland to Palo Alto or Menlo.

<comment><USER45> Companies, not people. (I'm assuming).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> So instead of maybe going anywhere else in the US/World, they decide to expand 30 miles north?</comment>