Traveling the World on a Third World Passport - cirrus-clouds https://www.bucketlistly.blog/posts/how-to-travel-third-world-passport-thai <comment><AUTHOR> Visa-free travel was what made me truly understand what "privilege" means.

Having an Armenian passport and travelling extensively through my life made me very familiar with what the author describes: the months-long waits, the fees, the scramble for documents, the uncertainty, the inability to travel without planning months in advance, the queues, the unpleasant experiences at airports, etc...

Eventually I managed to become an Australian permanent resident, which grants the right to travel to New Zealand without a visa. Some time after, a sudden opportunity came up, and I landed at Auckland airport, having booked my tickets the night before. I handed my completely blank, recently renewed, Armenian passport to the immigration agent (permanent residency is technically a type of visa, there is no "green card", and Australian visas are electronic, not placed as labels in a passport unless requested). He scanned it, stamped it, and handed it back to me, welcoming me to NZ. Took all of 20 seconds.

That whole experience was completely surreal for me, not because it was so different, but because it was so mundane. There was nothing to suggest that this process might be different for some people. Everything about it screamed "this is normal", while my mind screamed the opposite.

That was my first-hand lesson that unless you've ever lacked a certain privilege, it is near-impossible to be innately aware of it. Sure, others may try to educate you and make you aware, but it doesn't convey just how profound of an impact a privilege can have on the lives of those who lack it.

<comment><USER2> One of the remarkable things about Brexit has been all the people campaigning against visa-free travel and residence who didn't realise it was reciprocal and would apply to them. _Especially_ Britons who had immigrated to Spain or France and were relying on freedom of movement rather than the tedious business of actual residency.

<comment><USER3> Nobody in the UK is arguing that EU citizens should not be able to travel visa free, or rather, this is fringe, and a tiny minority of them wouldn't grasp it would be reciprocal.

Most are arguing against free settlement and access to social services and voting rights by anyone else in the EU. This is a hugely different thing.

Furthermore, the UK would under any system allow quite a number of EU citizens to come and work, so long as they meet some kind of criteria consistent with the needs of the UK - this is rational.

Spain benefits quite tremendously from the 'near full time' retirees coming there, so long as they don't have to foot the bill for healthcare (which they don't) and it would be in Spain's interest to have quite a large number of Britons coming there to retire. Britons aren't looking for jobs or voting rights, or to have children in the economy, just for domicile for a couple of decades.

<comment><USER2> In the absence of a national ID system or local registration requirements (a la France), how do you tell the difference between a visa free entrant and an illegal resident?

> criteria consistent with the needs of the UK

So, would you be imposing the existing rest-of-world spousal visa requirements on people who are already here with their EU spouses? If the answer is yes, do you accept that you're going to force a significant number of Brits to either lose their family or emigrate?

The existing Home Office system is already an inhumane disaster area which has no clear idea what "the needs of the UK" are.

> don't have to foot the bill for healthcare (which they don't)

Isn't this dependent on the EHIC system? What's happening with that?

Aren't you uncomfortable with the idea that being domiciled somewhere for a couple of decades wouldn't come with voting rights?

<comment><USER3> "In the absence of a national ID system or local registration requirements (a la France), how do you tell the difference between a visa free entrant and an illegal resident?"

Are you asking 'how the rest of the world' does it?

Or how the UK handles non-EU visitors today that don't require visas?

Because I don't think it's a concern.

"ren't you uncomfortable with the idea that being domiciled somewhere for a couple of decades wouldn't come with voting rights?"

Not at all. Especially because 'a vote' won't hardly make a difference. What matters is the integrity of the regime in question, and Spain is 'good enough'.

If Spain wants to give local/municipal voting rights to those on long-term retirement visas, then that's fine - point being, it's the decision of the Spaniards, not some ruthless adherence to ideology such as 'freedom of movement', the harsh interpretation of which is tearing the EU apart and turning politics across the continent upside down.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> As a holder of a weak passport (India), I'm surprised that the author hasn't used the most effective hack for "powering up" a passport: getting a US visitor (B1/B2) visa.

A US B1/B2 Visitor Visa will generally get you into an additional dozen or so countries (sometimes more), as outlined here: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_policy_of_the_United_Stat...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_policy_of_the_United_States) (see "Use for other countries" section). This list crucially includes Turkey, which the author could have used for applying for an EU visa from Istanbul instead of going home.

Not to mention that the US Visitor Visa will let you visit the US for up to 6 months at a time for the next 10 years for a reasonably modest fee of ~$200. Also unlike other countries you don't need to document a plan to visit the US and your visa remains valid even if your passport expires and you get a new passport.

Given all this, I'm not sure why the author hasn't made this (relatively) small investment.

If you're opposed to getting a US visa for ethical reason, you can also pull off the same (albeit to a lesser degree) via a Canadian/British/Schengen visitor visa (roughly in that order).

<comment><USER5> One of my India friend has applied for a B1/B2 visa for multiple times and did not get approved, even though he had already traveled to quite a lot countries.

I also got rejected a B1/B2 visa for 3 times (I'm holding China passport), and I finally flew and moved to U.S. after my company sponsored me a H1B visa.

The B1/B2 visa is truly the hardest visa to get for most third world people.

<comment><USER6> Wow I never would've thought this. As a Canadian, when I travel to the US for work / vacations I sometimes get my passport stamped with a B1/B2 visa (it is very common to cross the border with no Visa stamp in your passport).

I found this stamp more of an annoyance!

<comment><USER7> Canada is easily considered a first-world / powerful passport country.

[https://www.passportindex.org/comparebyPassport.php?p1=ca&p2...](https://www.passportindex.org/comparebyPassport.php?p1=ca&p2=us&fl=&s=yes)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> As a holder of third world passport, you will be really truly fucked up when your flight temporarily changed destination and landed on a country to which you don't have a visa.

This is what would happen to you:

1\. The aircrew would tell you everything is fine and totally ignored you after landing. And you got no compensation from the airline.

2\. The custom control would hold you in a small black room from 12 hours to 7 days, along with all kinds of illegal immigrants.

3\. Usually you would end up getting expelled to your passport's country, with it recorded on their system and even stamped on your passport, which means it will become much harder for you to apply for a visa.

<comment><USER4> Can you give an example?

I've never had this happen to me and my assumption was that if you stayed airside (didn't cross immigration) you would be fine.

<comment><USER8> Indians require transit visas when traveling through Canada. (I almost learnt this the hard way when flying through Canada, as a complete coincidence I had a canadian visa from a prior trip that was close to expiring)

<comment><USER4> Right, but Canada doesn't have a distinction between airside and landside transit. Although as a rule of thumb you should always check the rules for every country you are passing through.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> It is hell. The difference between having a third (or second) world passport and a US passport is night and day. Worst of all is the attitude at embassies from some washed-up diplomat-wannabes who show open animosity and derision towards you and your kind and get a sweet power trip out of each such interaction. It is literally a hellish experience I don't wish anyone to go through...

<comment><USER10> I'm from Mexico and even though my country has some bad immigrant reputation I haven't had any problem traveling several times to the US, Europe and some Latin American countries. What countries had you had bad experiences with?

<comment><USER11> [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_requirements_for_Mexican_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_requirements_for_Mexican_citizens)

Mexican passport is really good for visa free travel.

<comment><USER4> Mexico is a classic tier-2 passport according to Andrew Henderson (Nomad Capitalist).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Thank you for sharing my article here guys! Glad it gets the discussion going!

To address one of the point in the comments about why i dont have a US Visa is that I haven't been traveling there at all and the process of getting a visa for Thais are very difficult, more so than the Schengen one. We have to fill in the longest form ever online, make an appointment and pay upfront, and then they will call me to have a one on one interview session and I have to dress properly (business attire apparently) for it just require so much effort that I decided to go to other countries instead. But even with the US Visa I won't be able to ask for a visa abroad in countries like Kazakhstan or many other countries that have embassy in Bangkok. They always ask for a proof of residency in the country I ask for the visa. :/

I'm glad it gets the conversion going though and the US is finally on the list now for me and I'll try and see if I can get 10 years. Apparently they are giving less and less of that nowadays as well.

<comment><USER4> Hey! I'm the person who suggested getting a US visa, although I realize it may be tricky for a lot of people.

Glad to see that I am not the only one frustrated with tough visa restrictions.

<comment><USER12> Thank you for the suggestion. I'll definitely give it a go :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> And that's for travelling. Think about how many people struggle in their home country with very few chances to try it out in a better place for them.

As Nancy Birdsall puts it [1]: "No other circumstance of birth — not race, gender, ethnicity, or parental socioeconomic status — so completely determines life chances as the nation of birth, essentially because of border restrictions on the mobility of labour".

[1] [https://www.cgdev.org/sites/default/files/9781933286105-Prit...](https://www.cgdev.org/sites/default/files/9781933286105-Pritchett- let-their-people-come.pdf)

<comment><USER4> In my experience, people from India (and I'm guessing other third-world countries) often move to a foreign country without ever visiting first given the expense of travel and their limited savings. In a way immigrating is more accessible to them than visiting as a tourist.

But generally, yes I agree with your point.

<comment><USER14> > In a way immigrating is more accessible to them than visiting as a tourist.

Not really. Someone from a developed country can get a working holiday visa to other developed countries very easily and work and travel.

People from third world countries cannot do that, ofcourse I understand why they cannot do that.

<comment><USER15> Most working holiday visas top out at a certain age, like 35 or even lower. The US participates in surprisingly few - only five, most of which have maximum ages of 25-30.

But, sure, what you say applies to young people from most developed countries.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Brit here. Would love to travel to the States one day but it sounds like an awful hassle so I continually pick easier destinations. Even the whole "give up your social media passwords" is enough to make me go "meh..."

Vancouver was lovely. Might be as close as I'll ever get....

<comment><USER17> The US is worth the hassle in my opinion simply because of its national parks. I have never seen anything like them in the world, in the span of like 3 states (Utah, Arizona and Colorado) you can experience 3 different landscapes (otherwise found in at least 2 different continents/countries) and just feel, truly happy, unlike other touristic experiences. (At least in my case, something about nature I find so serene)

<comment><USER18> It is funny in a way, the national and state parks may be America's best tourist feature hands down. It's a remarkable collection. Places like NYC can obviously be a great experience. The parks are pretty special though, a lot of the other typical touristy stuff you can more or less get in numerous other countries. And it's inexpensive, a $80 annual pass gets multiple people access to thousands of federal recreation spots and all 60 national parks.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> I would like to say welcome to Indonesia for the author of the post! I am Indonesian, and just like what the author described, it is also hard for Indonesian passport to travel around the world. There are some visa free countries we could visit, such as member of ASEAN countries.

Indonesia is big, and the foreign embassy usually only located on the capital, Jakarta, or other big cities.

It is hard for me to travel to country that require a visa because I, first have to travel to the capital, this already took a whole day off work, and also expense of travel, then either stay in the capital (more money for rent) or go back to my home city, then back again to the embassy once its ready (another money and time spent for travel).

The problem was not the money or time, the problem is that we cant be certain whether our effort will yield result (e.g for me to travel to the capital, say 2 times and say 2 night hotel stay, would be around $300, also around 4 days taken from yearly leaves).

Considering that, I'll just visit visa-free country for now.

<comment><USER12> Hey, I am the author. Greetings from Bajawa, Flores! Beautiful country you have! And you are right, Indonesia is massive. I've been back and forth at least 5 times in the past 6 years and still haven't been to Sumatra adn Sulawesi!

But yes, that's what I did as well by starting my journey in Cambodia and worked my way from there :)

<comment><USER19> Hi, nice that you enjoyed Indonesia! Even I havent been to Sulawesi nor Flores, good luck with your trip and safe travel!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> Brazilian here, with a US visa. The appointment in the consulate took several hours, mostly waiting in line. You really have to set aside an entire day.

Also, they keep your passport for a few days, then send it through the mail.

I'm still lucky to live a couple hours drive from the nearest consulate. Brazil is a big country, and for many the consulate visit is a travel event in itself.

<comment><USER21> In fairness, this is true for getting a Brazilian visa in the U.S. My understanding is this is retaliatory, one way or the other.

<comment><USER22> Brazil reciprocates all and any customs process any country implements.

It will go as low process as only verifying the foreign documents at the border against a known criminal list, and as high process as demanding an entire day at the embassy on the specific case of the US.

<comment><USER23> > and as high process as demanding an entire day at the embassy on the > specific case of the US.

I've obtained three Brazilian visas and witnessed other Americans obtain them, and I've never seen anyone have to spend a full day at the consulate. In fact, we can request them through visa expediters without appearing at a consulate in person at all.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Oddly, having residency in one of the more developed countries does little to mitigate the ill-fated effects of a weak passport.

I am a Canadian resident with an Indian passport.

A 10-day trip to Iceland involved me having to submit 6 - 12 types of personal and financial documents, and showing hotel bookings for everyday of my visit.

I need to wait for 2 weeks to submit my application (in-person of course). The processing takes 2 - 6 weeks, not including the time they take to actually parcel your application to the embassy.

I am 16 days into waiting and my application tracking status is stuck on the message it showed on the first day. I contacted their support, and their response was, "Oh year we didn't update that. I don't know what stage your application is at, and this is the most information I can give you." I paid more than $100 in visa and courier fees.

I have travelled to over 15 countries and the above experience is, by far, one of the easiest processes I have been through.

<comment><USER4> It is definitely a pain, but if you naturalize you'll only have to endure this for another 3 years.

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> My wife is an immigrant from Poland. There is a lot of truth in this article. Governments discriminate against other governments A LOT and the citizens pay the price for that. In the US it would be considered illegal to take a Puerto Rican to jail for not having a passport, but there are cops dumb enough to think Puerto Rico is not a part of the US.

Contrarily, many countries discriminate against people with a US passport. There is a hidden resort fee just for foreigners that hotels all around the world charge, but if you speak the native language, you can bypass the fee.

<comment><USER18> I ran into an amplified version of that during a long trip to France in the midst of the peak political fallout between the US and France over the Iraq war.

The French being the French, every interaction was made dramatically better so long as I made every effort to stay in their language. There was a lot of tension in the air with regards to the US, dialogue in their language always defused that. Older people were the nicest, they were always surprised I was there and were happy to see an American in Paris at that time.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> Had a funny experience on a recent Eurotrip I was on. I ended up losing a jacket (important to me for personal reasons) in Austria (Salzburg) on a tram, and had to depart for Germany (Munich) the next morning. I'd reported the loss to the bus operator and when they found the jacket they called to ask me to collect it from their office in Salzburg, but by then I was already in Munich.

I ended up taking an early morning bus the next day from Munich to Salzburg, collected by jacket and was back in Munich by lunch. We had a bungee jump happening in Innsbruck (again Austria) the next day so we crossed the border again, only to come back to Germany a day later.

So in 3 days I ended up crossing the border LEGALLY 5+ times.

This story blows the mind of friends back home. Foreign travel is a much bigger deal in many places because of the planning involved (I even know people who had to return from layover airports because they were unaware that the airport needs a visa as well even if only on a layover... Yes, that's silly, but it's happened).

As someone who carries a "weak" Indian passport (Yeah, I have a 10 year B1/B2, but honestly that's still a far cry from most decent passports w.r.t. travel), the Schengen process was astounding. I really hope more countries open up their visa restrictions to travellers.

<comment><USER27> Borders around that part of the world really are more of an implementation detail than anything important.

I'm originally from Australia but living in the UK for a year or so. I went on a couple month long holiday around the UK and while I was in northern Italy, I decided it would be nice to spend a couple of days in southern Switzerland. I hopped on a local commuter train and like 40 minutes later I was in Switzerland. The next day I went on a bit of a day hike and 'accidentally' hiked back into Italy for a stunning view.

<comment><USER27> 'Edit': I went on a holiday around _Europe_.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> It's no wonder why (rich) people spend so much money to get a St kitts citizenship just to avoid all this. It does really take the fun out of the travel IMO.

The worst still is the US visa in which you have to go for an interview like a fucking job interview in order for them to ascertain if you're fit or not. I have travelled so much around the world but hated traveling to US because of this reason (because at least with rest of the countries a travel agent can do almost 90% of the leg work).

But when I think calmly I don't blame them though because people do abuse it a lot. I think one time our entire rowing team disappeared in the US after arriving.

<comment><USER29> You're kidding, right? St Kitts isn't exactly a world class passport.

If you want to "buy" a first world passport, go for a passport from any EU country. Plenty of countries offer passports to investors.

<comment><USER30> Right now, at least for Russian buyers of citizenship-by-investment (a field with which I have some acquaintance as a RU-EN translator with some such firms as clients), only Malta among the EU countries is an attractive option. Other EU countries are no longer so quick to hand out citizenship, only residency permits.

The Caribbean countries may not seem "world class" to you, but passports of some of them do offer visa-free travel to Schengen and Commonwealth nations, which in itself is enough for many of these investors.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> Here is the passport index global ranking: [https://www.passportindex.org/byRank.php](https://www.passportindex.org/byRank.php)

Never occurred to me that Greece would be so high in the list :-)

<comment><USER4> This is mostly because of inclusion in EU; the EU is able to negotiate visa policies for their citizens as a block instead of individually.

<comment><USER32> it's even mandatory, bilateral treaties are mostly forbidden.

<comment><USER4> I'm not so sure, IIRC Polish and Romanian citizens need a visa for visiting the US even though they are both EU members and US citizens are allowed to visit both visa-free.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> Coming home recently I was somewhat surprised to see that US Global Entry card holders can now skip immigration at New Zealand airports via a fast lane otherwise reserved for diplomats, _even though New Zealanders are not eligible for the Global Entry programme in the States_. Whoever negotiated that asymmetrical deal... sheesh...

It so happens that NZ's regular immigration is now just an electronic gate that takes your photo, if you have certain passports (NZ, UK, Canada, Australia, US, some European countries etc). So it's already pretty close to the preferred entry schemes in the US and other countries and they're not missing much. But if you didn't have one of those lucky passports, but you did have one on the Global Entry eligibility list (which now includes India) I wonder if Global Entry would be a nice upgrade that would get you into several other countries more smoothly (effectively outsourcing the vetting process to the US, which seems kinda weird to me, but that seems to be what's happening).

<comment><USER4> Does this apply to citizens of other countries with Global Entry too? [https://www.cbp.gov/travel/trusted-traveler- programs/global-...](https://www.cbp.gov/travel/trusted-traveler- programs/global-entry/eligibility)

<comment><USER33> Good question, I can't find any information about that. I just saw the special lane with my own eyes.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> Not to mention standing in long queues OUTSIDE the consulate, sometimes for several hours.

[https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/tamil-nadu/new- queue-...](https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/tamil-nadu/new-queue-system- saves-time-for-us-visa-applicants/article2148154.ece)

<comment><USER35> Just to give some perspective, not all your visa problems are because you have a weak passport:

As a European, that happened to me when I needed a work visa for the US (for 2 month unpaid internship, J-1 visa). Only had to wait 20 min though because I had to book an appointment via credit card for $10. And I would not say that the guys there were nice in anyways. (Whole thing cost me $500, one day of travelling and 2 month preparing the whole thing in total.)

</comment></comment><comment><USER36> It's amusing that the author complains about a 2-week process for getting a Visa where Iranians have to wait months and in some cases a couple of years for a simple visitor Visa to US, and in many cases be denied for no good reason

<comment><USER4> If you're from Iran you can't even get a visitor visa now: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_policy_of_the_United_Stat...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_policy_of_the_United_States#Visa_or_entry_refused_to_nationals_of_certain_countries).

Also waiting for a visa for 2 weeks means that your passport is tied up for those two weeks and you're unable to leave the country you're in. This could put a serious dent in the plans of any digital nomad.

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> NB , it seems travel visas emerged in the early 1920s.

[https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=travel%20visa%...](https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=travel%20visa%2C%20transit%20visa%2C%20visa%20stamp%2C%20passport%20visa&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&direct_url=t1%3B%2Ctravel%20visa%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Ctransit%20visa%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cvisa%20stamp%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cpassport%20visa%3B%2Cc0)

<comment><USER38> Visas and passports started widely being used post-World War I

</comment></comment><comment><USER39> Similar experience with Russian passport as well. Treating someone just by a place where he/she was born is a racism, just in a less obvious fashion.

<comment><USER40> Ironically, Russia is one of the most difficult countries to enter in the world, for passport holders from any country.

<comment><USER39> Sadly it is true. Russia is an awesome location for non-urban tourism with a wild variety of climate - from hellish desert to a cold-hellish snow one, from high-rise mountains to vast expanses of swamps. Totally worth a visit.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER41> My cousin from Kenya got his visa denied to US and it was sort of heart breaking. Being from Kenya myself and now in US, I've missed many flights to vacations and a friend's wedding because Visa would not come on time.

You have to do quite a bit of preparation and paper work quite early. Hefty visa price easing fees and long queues. Having a first world passport is definitely a big previlege.

</comment><comment><USER42> Something not often mentioned is that some countries (UK, Spain and France come to mind) require a visa to transit through their airports.

<comment><USER4> This can often be waived if you stay airside and have a visa from another first world country. I've done this personally with a US Visa in the UK and France, can't speak to Spain.

<comment><AUTHOR> The UK even allows visa-free 24-hour transit that allows leaving the airport for almost anyone.

While studying in the US, I once booked a flight to visit my relatives in Prague, flying into Heathrow, then flying out from Gatwick 18 hours later, leaving me with a whole day to explore London. It's supposed to be at the immigration agent's discretion, but he was happy to let me through, despite my Armenian passport.

Return leg was slightly more complicated, because the airline staff in Prague refused to check me in, since the flight was to London, and I had no UK visa. After at least half an hour of arguing, they ended up drawing up a waiver for me to sign, and let me on.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER43> Semi-related "Show HN: Compare benefits of second passport based on the one you have" (201 points, 145 comments) from last month:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17577386](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17577386)

[https://multinational.io/](https://multinational.io/)

</comment><comment><USER44> One positive thing about being born in a third-world country is that if you can manage to train yourself to become a good software developer (which I admit is probably much harder to achieve than in a first-world country), you can find remote work for a foreign (first-world) company and then you can live like a rich person in your own country (buy houses, etc...); this seems relatively attainable if you put your mind to it. When you're from a first- world country, becoming rich is essentially unattainable; you wish you could move to a third-world country to live a better quality of life, but that's not really an option; often, the law of these countries forbid foreigners from owning property; also, you don't know the language or culture so you might end up getting ripped off when doing large transactions.

</comment><comment><USER45> Visa-free regime with EU is one of the best things that happened to Ukrainians a few years ago, we now have many more low-cost flight tickets and directions available, and most of my friends are using it, often surprising me at what's possible even on a low budget some of them have.

</comment><comment><USER46> I spent three months traveling through Central America and the stories I heard of the difficulties people face trying to just visit America are absurd.

It's just ridiculous that Americans can show up basically anywhere on earth and get waved in and we don't extend that courtesy to others.

<comment><USER33> I think most countries would prefer to do it reciprocally as a matter of pride (for example Brazil started fingerprinting US travellers after the US was the first to start doing that to all foreigners), but in some cases they can't afford to put up barriers to tourism dollar inflows, so they make a difficult choice. Plenty of countries _won 't_ let Westerners waltz in without a visa -- for example India and China.

<comment><USER4> It ultimately comes down to balancing priorities - bringing in tourist money vs keeping up diplomatically.

Both India and China have realized this - India allows an eVisa and China allows you to transit visa-free for upto 144 hours.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER47> Opening the page and seeing first picture made me smile :) That is a place in Turkmenistan!

Coming from there and living in Germany, I wish someday to be able to travel the world possibly with German passport though..

</comment><comment><USER48> I wish there was a MoviePass like service for visa's. Pay a monthly/yearly for fee hassle free travel. Hopefully someday!

P.S.I don't have enough money to pay upfront to buy citizenship in Grenada

<comment><USER4> The cost of visas is generally not an issue, especially weighing it against the cost of flights, accommodation and food.

What I really wish for is a Common App-like system for visas that will copy over info like Name, Date and Place of Birth, Travel History etc from one visa application to another. Automating bank balance details would also be a nice touch.

P.S.: If you have an Indian passport, the number of countries we have access to visa-free keeps on growing, making this service less and less necessary.

</comment></comment><comment><USER49> I have a South African passport and just applied for visa to visit the UK, what a mission, relate completely with what you say. There are reasons why certain countries are targeted for strict visas. South Africa used to have quite a good passport until massive corruption in the SA government allowed criminals and other nationalities to get SA passports, now everyone suffers

<comment><USER50> The South African one got struck off the list (Namibia remained) after there were a string of drug smuggling incidents.

<comment><USER49> Well the government in ZA is still as crooked as ever, its not one event ;)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER51> I have German and US passports. I definitely feel very lucky with the way I get treated at most borders compared to others. And Thai is probably still one of the better ones. I wonder how it's to travel with a Pakistan or Afghanistan passport.

<comment><USER52> How did you manage to get German and US? Doesn't Germany expect you to be exclusively German?

<comment><USER53> German citizenship can be passed _jus sanguinis_ , which doesn't conflict with US requirements based on _jus soli_.

Thus, a child born in the US to German parents is eligible for citizenship in both countries. This bypasses both countries' requirements on exclusive citizenship because you are not _applying_ for citizenship, but rather exercising your claim to _existing_ citizenship. This is a semantically meaningful differentiation from a legal standpoint.

Note that exercising this claim yourself will permanently disqualify you from government clearances at all levels.

Source: I went through this process.

[0]: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_sanguinis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_sanguinis)

[1]: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli)

<comment><USER54> > Note that exercising this claim yourself will permanently disqualify you > from government clearances at all levels.

Can you elaborate a bit more on this? Is it something specific to German law? A relative of mine who holds both US and UK citizenship worked for the US government and later for the UK government and was granted elevated security clearances in both roles.

<comment><USER55> Both the US and UK are Five Eyes countries [1], Germany isn't.

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER56> Summary: massively asymmetrical economic situations of different countries (resulting in massively asymmetrical impetus for citizens to illegally migrate across borders) leads to asymmetrical passport experiences for their citizens.

<comment><USER57> Objectively, the winner is the environment, however. Perhaps traveling should be harder for everybody?

</comment></comment><comment><USER58> Great visualization (I think posted here recently) of where you can travel with a passport.

[http://multinational.io/compare_passports](http://multinational.io/compare_passports)

</comment><comment><USER59> I just acquired a GDR passport from 1981. I wonder if it's still good…

<comment><USER51> Is it in your name?

<comment><USER59> I can neither confirm nor deny that.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER60> Brexit is about to make the UK index much much much lower.

<comment><USER61> Britain is managing it's visa policies on it's own. It would be a hassle for any country inside Shengen Agreement, though.

</comment></comment><comment><USER62> If you think a Thai passport is bad, try travelling the world with a Syrian passport. it is extremely difficult to get through even when you have a valid visa (you could still be held for hours and eventually returned back). USA has already blocked the whole nation on grounds of religion (Muslim Ban).

Life is extremely unfair, but thanks to the internet that empowered us, we can now create ideas, exchange them for money and then buy our way out of life disadvantages.

</comment><comment><USER63> Pff, I am from Europe and if i want to go to say China its the exact same process. blah blah

<comment><USER4> If you have a Western passport you can generally transit through for 72/144 hours without any problems.

</comment></comment><comment><USER64> except that obligation to get visas for most of the countries (and paying some valuable dollars and euros for them), some of my experiences on having difficulties over my Turkish passport are:

\- 3 hours interrogation when exiting thailand (some of my turkish friends are busted in their hostels in the 5 AM and taken to the police station for interrogation)

\- 1 hours interrogation in china (then the local police handed me over to some kind of special police force for some more quick interrogation) and veeery detailed search on my backpack and stuff in public.

\- had to enter separate line on entering Serbia with other (only) Turkish passport holders, where police officers asked why would i come to the country.

these 3 stuff happened just after the official saw Turkish passport.

some visa problems my friends had encountered:

\- when Trump had sanctions over some Arab countries on visas, Turkey was unofficially in that list i presume since none of my friends got their US visa at that time. (some of them was living in the US before or got their MS degree in states)

\- not being able to get schengen visa. (having CS degree in the most reputable universities in the country, have no criminal record per se)

\--

while travelling with foreign friends who have 'reputable passports', i realise, oh that is not the standarts. this is happening since i have third world passport + some bad reputation of my country.

</comment><comment><USER65> Unmarked affiliate links aren't cool...

</comment><comment><USER66> ITT a bunch of Hacker News denizens discover the idea of privilege.

<comment><USER67> What do you mean by privilege here?

<comment><USER66> Systemic unearned advantages. An easier difficulty mode for life, if you will.

<comment><USER67> Then I disagree that it's privilege. A civilisation requires active effort to maintain, it cannot just float by on its own inertia. If people from western countries did nothing but inherit the privilege of their parents, society would quickly erode, and then their passport would be at the bottom of the list as well.

<comment><USER66> I never said people with privilege do nothing but inherit it. But the fact that they inherited it makes many things easier. And in any case maintaining privilege is usually much easier than gaining it.

<comment><USER67> Your definition of privilege was 'unearned'. I would challenge that by saying that privilege is earned by successive generations generating and maintanining said privilege.

[https://www.passportindex.org/byRank.php](https://www.passportindex.org/byRank.php)

The nation at the top of this list was a low-income, third world nation 60 years ago. Do you think this happened by accident?</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Debounce Your React Code to Improve Performance - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/gitconnected/debounce-react-and-redux-code-for-improved-performance-4b8d3c19e305 <comment><AUTHOR> A debounce is a technique used frequently in the front end to spread out actions that require heavy computation. This article shows how a technique that has been around for years still works with modern JavaScript and libraries.</comment>


Building a Better Ngrok - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@shivanshvij/building-a-better-ngrok-dbc104754822 <comment><AUTHOR> I use ngrok and find it super valuable but the docs are about as poorly organized and incomplete as they could be for such a small surface area product and as a paying customer I find the ngrok company completely non- responsive.

This new ngrok competitor is focusing on speed, which would be nice, but I'm hoping they simply listen to their customers and act on issues their customers have.

<comment><USER2> We completely agree, and a big focus for us has been improving the UX compared to Ngrok.

Our docs are being overhauled this week and will include examples on hosting common apps, troubleshooting common issues, and using the various features in lynk like HTTP authentication.

You can check them out here at [https://lynk.sh](https://lynk.sh)</comment></comment>


About Tomorrow - <AUTHOR> http://www.e-flux.com/architecture/artificial-labor/140676/about-tomorrow/ <comment><USER2> How about a more descriptive title?

</comment><comment><USER3> Worrying about lack of variability in the human condition, as the author does here, seems like a strange fear in the face of the future ability to edit, copy, and amend the function of the mind. Once human minds are emulated, those capabilities follow, and emulation should happen fairly rapidly after the computing power to do it emerges, since there are already well established research establishments working on the predecessor simulations.

[https://www.exratione.com/2017/04/blind-upon-the-eve-of- apot...](https://www.exratione.com/2017/04/blind-upon-the-eve-of-apotheosis/)

"The pace of progress today bumps up against the limits imposed by organization of efforts, in that it takes a few years for humans to digest new information, talk to one another about it, decide on a course of action, gather together a group, raise funds, and start working. There is no necessary reason for any of these parts of the process to take more than a few seconds, however: consider a world in which human minds run far faster, because they run on something other than biological neurons, because they run hundreds of distinct streams of consciousness simultaneously, and because they are augmented by forms of artificial intelligence that take on some of the cognitive load for task assignment and decision making.

"It is, frankly, hard to even speculate about the potential forms taken by society in such an environment. Technology clearly drives human organizational strategies and struggles, for all that the minds of prehistory, of Ur, and of our modern times are all the same. In the past, evolution of society was largely shaped by the ability to communicate over distances and by the size of the population. In the future it will be shaped to a far greater extent by the way in which intelligences think and feel, and the way in which their minds depart from the present standard for human nature. We struggle to model human action in the broadest sense of economic studies, and I suspect that this will be true for any society of minds, no matter how capable they are. The complexity of the group always exceeds the capabilities of any individual or research effort within that group. We can do little more than point out incentives and suggest trends that are likely to emerge from those incentives."

For my money, the greater fears lie in what factions of humanity and its descendants might choose to do about pleasure and suffering, when handed the controls over the box.

[https://www.exratione.com/2016/06/the-hedonistic- imperative-...](https://www.exratione.com/2016/06/the-hedonistic-imperative- followed-to-the-ends-of-paradise-engineering/)

"Altering the operation of our brains to induce pleasure without the need to undertake as much work was a fairly early innovation - see alchohol, etc. The point of much of technological progress is to achieve better results with less effort. The logical end of that line is wireheading or a life science equivalent yet to be designed: an augmentation in the brain, a button that you push, and the system causes you to feel pleasure whenever you want. There are numerous other alternatives in the same technological genre that seem plausible, such as always-on happiness, regardless of circumstances. This sort of thing makes many people nervous, and, sadly, rarely for useful reasons. That said, I suspect that even the most self-controlled of individuals has sufficient self-doubt to be wary of the advent of implementations of wireheading that might be, say, a hundred times better, cheaper, and safer than today's most influential mood-altering drugs.

"To my eyes this is actually the less interesting and less consequential of the two sides of the hedonistic imperative. It is the elimination of suffering, not the gaining of pleasure, that, when taken to its conclusions, will lead to a world and a humanity changed so radically as to be near unrecognizable."

<comment><USER4> " a world in which human minds run far faster, because they run on something other than biological neurons, because they run hundreds of distinct streams of consciousness simultaneously, and because they are augmented by forms of artificial intelligence that take on some of the cognitive load for task assignment and decision making."

Isn't that what is happening right now with the internet? "human minds" would then be social circles or any other groups of entities. Powered by biological neurons, by regulations, by software, by hardware, by all of them together. Running "hundreds of distinct streams of consciousness simultaneously" inside the human participants' skulls and, lets define it broad, other kinds of 'consciousness' inside of software and hardware. It's just a zoomed out view.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> Could we have an ever-so-slightly less clickbaity title?

I realise it's the source article's title, that's not the point.

I'll suggest the author's own book title as a reasonable alternative: "Brain and Culture; Neurobiology, Ideology and Social Change"

@dang?

<comment><USER6> I don't think this title is clickbait. It's true that it doesn't spell everything out, but HN has a tradition of allowing such titles as long as the submission delivers the goods in terms of substantiveness. I haven't read this article so am not sure if it's good, but at least it isn't obviously lame, which is the real clickbait scourge.

We don't want every title to be like that, of course, but it's good for HN's front page not to be trivially grokkable. It makes readers work a little, and that's a good thing. It's like dietary fiber.

<comment><USER5> The article itself, the site it's from, and even the wikipedia article which ... fairly successfully fails to provide any relevant information ... are all a hot mess.

The article is the draft of something which might be vaguely interesting, and raises a few points (some of which are on topics of interest to me -- the sudden influx of wealth, transportation, and Westernisation to the Arabian peninsula, for example).

But muddy as hell.

<comment><USER7> I disagree that it's clickbait Might have some silly opinions toward the end, but I think the summary and analysis in the first half-2/3s is nice.

<comment><USER5> I'm not arguing that the _article_ is clickbait, only that it's largely incoherent.

The site as a whole reflects the same problem.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Jaguar Land Rover to build electric cars at UK factory - <AUTHOR> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-jaguarlandrover-britain/jaguar-land-rover-to-build-electric-cars-at-uk-factory-report-idUSKCN1TU0YB <comment><USER3> They'll leak oil. It might have to be peanut oil, but they'll find a way. It would be good if they returned to true roots and used screws to hold the body together and aircon was a flap under the windscreen with wire mesh underneath

<comment><USER4> Heh, I was half expecting the top comment to be something about their reliability. British boutique auto manufacturers have many virtues, but electronics is not one of them.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> The existing EV model is made by Magna Steyr in Austria - <USER2> manufacturing in cars, who knew?

The Land Rover Defender is going to be made in Slovakia. Recently the Ford engine plant in South Wales announced closing time, they supplied the diesels that JLR used.

The existing XJ saloon is ending production at Castle Bromwich next month. So it looks like the new EV line will be put in there rather than Pune India, Slovakia or anywhere else more favourable.

The break up of Jaguar from British Leyland was a bit political and there are facilities that Jaguar ended up with such as the press plant that served the wider BL group. Then the Ford ownership changed it again, sharing Ford Mondeo platforms and engines.

Brexit is currently not happening too well, the no-deal option is off the menu somewhat, the government are in-between leaders and business still has to happen. This EV XJ saloon is not intended to sell in vast numbers relatively speaking.

<comment><USER6> > the no-deal option is off the menu somewhat

Both the candidates for Prime Minister say they'd implement no-deal if required.

<comment><USER5> It's not up to them, parliament has to vote and there is no majority for no- deal. A new election with a fresh roster of MPs could change that but 2/3rds of Parliament would need to vote for an election.

If you read some far-right rag then no-deal is just around the corner. But there is some semblance of democracy preventing that.

<comment><USER6> I think you're somewhat dangerously in denial if you think there is no chance of no-deal at the moment.

The government's legal opinion is that no-deal is the default and is what will be implemented if nothing else is voted for, and this is also what the BBC believe to be the case, although you will also find alternative opinions including the Speaker.

This is why there is talk of sending the Commons home - so that the default happens and there is no-deal.

MPs have to vote _for_ something to avoid no-deal. And as you say, there's no majority for anything so nothing is being voted for.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I suspect Geely will buy JLR from Tata after the debacle with the huge diesel plant they built in 2014 and market collapse in China with Chinese built Jaguars. It's a very difficult time for car manufacturers and given that the largest market is China and they have most of the raw materials this is likely to ultimately be a kit assembly plant

</comment><comment><USER6> > followed by a sport utility vehicle

I am praying that this is a new electric Defender.

</comment><comment><USER8> About time, they cocked up on the whole carrying ok with diesel thing

</comment><comment><USER9> Bit thin given that this is a preannouncement of an announcement, but good news. There's been a lot of chaos in the industry in advance of Brexit.</comment>


New measurement will help redefine international unit of mass - <AUTHOR> https://phys.org/news/2017-06-redefine-international-mass.html <comment><USER2> This is really interesting - in a geeky way.

Until now all fundamental units were defined in terms that depended on the constants of nature.

For instance:

\- the metre as the length of the path travelled by light in a vacuum in 1/299 792 458 seconds.

\- the second as: the duration of 9 192 631 770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium 133 atom

And so on EXCEPT for the kg.

The kg was the only odd one out. There was this object stored somewhere and when people wanted to measure very well the kg they had to go there and try to measure the mass of that object as accurately as possible... which is a rather odd thing to do when aiming for accuracy.

Now we finally have the means to express the kg with a physical experience in universal terms.

<comment><USER3> It is called "le grand k" and is kept in France. Even with these new measurements, they are still just a representation of the original grand k.

<comment><USER4> Indeed, but the hope is that you could (in principle) lose or damage the grand k, and be able to get on with life. Just like with the second and the meter, the kg will be defined using an agreed upon number that provides the best possible agreement with the old artifact. Then the artifact will have been replaced by a number whose value is largely of historical interest.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Interesting background in [http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1120033...](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112003322) The standard kilogram has been losing mass over time (when compared to a collection of copies). Apparently, we have been getting progressively less banana... (about 50 parts per billion between these comparison exercises)

</comment><comment><USER6> I thought I was getting a new unit to buy bananas in other than lbs... turns out they just measured Planck's constant very accurately in an impressive manner.

Slightly disappointed.

<comment><USER2> Sad truth is that you buy bananas in lbf and in most of the world we use Kgf.

This world is lost I tell you, can't even pay for something according to it's mass.

<comment><USER4> Amusingly, all of the "English" units used in the US are defined in terms of metric units. For instance there's no standard inch. Rather, the inch is exactly 2.54 cm.</comment></comment></comment>


Generating naming languages - <AUTHOR> http://mewo2.com/notes/naming-language/ <comment><USER2> This seems to disproportionately generate languages where all syllables start and end in a consonant.

Example: lium / les / seap / lim / mus / mis / sus / nus / suis / san / sois / taum / puos / sais / mip / soup / lis / neuk / soes / nal / sis / sit / piom / puot / saos / luk

This is rather unnatural, even in consonant heavy languages like the Slavic languages. See: [http://www.personal.ceu.hu/students/97/Roman_Zakharii/polski...](http://www.personal.ceu.hu/students/97/Roman_Zakharii/polski.htm)

Don't read this as disappointment though. This is really cool! Just wanted to point out this quirk.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yeah, that's sort of deliberate. Because the consonant system is so much more developed than the vowels, it's easier for them to do more of the heavy lifting, even if that is a bit unusual in natural language terms. I could probably stand to tweak the probabilities a bit though.

<comment><USER3> There are quite a lot of existing word generators that allow you to describe words in different ways (declaratively according to phonotactic rules vs. procedurally and so forth), and at different levels of detail depending on the user's level of linguistic knowledge.

A fairly popular one which recently had a major update is Lexifer by William Annis ([http://lingweenie.org/conlang/lexifer.html](http://lingweenie.org/conlang/lexifer.html)), which allows specifying some fairly sophisticated statistical distributions.

My own entry into the space is Logopoeist ([https://github.com/conlang- software-dev/Logopoeist](https://github.com/conlang-software-dev/Logopoeist)). I did a comparative review of every known word generator at the time last November, but unfortunately I haven't gotten around to publishing it yet.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Think I'll use this generator for generating endpoints for my new open API</comment>


AK HN: Did you receive a response from Stripe's OS Retreat? - <AUTHOR>

I applied for Stripe's OS retreat 2 weeks ago, and haven't heard back since, not even a "thanks for your application"-kind email. Did anyone applied for the program and actually received an answer from stripe? <comment><USER2> You should expect to hear back from us in the next couple of days. I believe I just replied to your specific application acknowledging receipt; shoot me an email (email@example.com) if you don't see the confirmation.</comment>


US buys up world stock of key Covid-19 drug - <AUTHOR> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/30/us-buys-up-world-stock-of-key-covid-19-drug <comment><USER2> I don't see a huge problem with this. An American company created and patented the drug. How is it bad that the US bought the supply? If the United States was _hoarding_ the supply and there was no need for it the US, then that would be morally suspect. But there is a need in the US, and while that need doesn't outweigh the needs of others, the Unites States shouldn't be expected to forego its access for others at this time.

<comment><USER3> I suppose you could say that if 500k Americans won't require the drug during July then the US are indeed hoarding it.

To test your morality think about how you would feel if China discovers a vaccine first and keeps the first 2bn doses for its own people. Then India, Russia, Europe, Africa and the US gets it 2 years later?

<comment><USER4> Honestly that is exactly what I would expect China or the US to do. The process of producing the vaccine should be shared with all countries and perhaps enough vaccine samples set aside to help kick other countries kick off producing it. All countries should be trying to develop vaccines and sharing the knowledge but should also reserve production for their own citizens first.

Also the 500,000 is not just for July it includes %90 of production for August and September and of course can be used whenever before it expires. Also it is not a single does per patient more like 11 for a 10 day treatment program. So it's enough doses to treat about 15,000 patients per month for three months. The rate of new cases is accelerating and currently stands at 40,000 new cases a day and Dr. Fauci expects it to hit 100,000 per day. So I would not classify it as unnecessary hording.

<comment><USER3> > The process of producing the vaccine should be shared with all countries

Is the process to make Remdesivir being shared globally?</comment></comment></comment></comment>


The Future of Sex: It Gets Better - <AUTHOR> http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-future-of-sex-it-gets-better-1430104231 <comment><USER2> As a hobbyist adult mango artist, I have to agree, the internet has done wonders for sex. And, as a ME/CS engineer, I would really like to be able to be at the forefront of further advances in the field of robotics...

But all hype and optimism aside, why is there no medication for female sexual dysfunction? I'm trying to come up reason by looking at this from various perspectives, but nothing seems to make much sense. From a religious point of view, reproduction in a marriage is important, so it'd make sense if the female is sexually interested. From an economic point of view, developing a drug that solves a market need is worth tons of money (also no competition). From a feminist point of view, a woman's body, including her sex, should be her own and any dysfunctions she should be entitled to fix. From a misogynist's point of view, sex is one of the things a woman is good for, so it makes sense you can have it with her.

So why is there no drug for female sexual dysfunction? Is it really difficult technically or something?</comment>


Ask HN: How many of you use psychostimulants to enhance your productivity - <AUTHOR> I am diagnosed with OCD (Pure-O) and ADD, so I am prescribed VyVanse (an amphetamine similar to adder all) for daily use to get me running efficiently. I find it really enhances my ability to be productive and code. In fact I now seem to rely on it to program which isn't the best thing to do. I am curious as to how many other hackers on HN also use performance enhancing drugs to do work or bang out code. If so, have any of you come to rely on it to do anything productive? <comment><USER2> FWIW: My youngest son tends towards OCD and both my sons are ASD, which is related to ADD. Treating underlying health issues has done a lot for them. For my youngest son, exposure to mold makes him really OCD. Getting hidden mold issues in the home addressed resolved that. Prior to addressing the mold issues, high doses of vitamins were effective in keeping his OCD tendencies under control.

</comment><comment><USER3> If gin and red wine count - that's my bag -, but only to wind down.</comment>


Ask HN: Is there a "product launch as a service" company? - <AUTHOR> For example, I think I have a good product, but I want to hire some help to get it launched, acquire initial customers, and hopefully build momentum. This would include social media, promos, press, etc. <comment><USER2> Lots of digital agencies do this for you, but splashy agency launches aren't usually how startups get off the ground (with a few exceptions). They're how bigger companies release new products because they have ample brand awareness and budget.

The conventional wisdom in the last ten years for new startup products are that you should open discussions with initial customers yourself.

This kind of early customer development lets you prove your hypotheses around the product having demand before investing in expensive promotional spending.

<comment><USER3> I'm torn on whether this 'conventional wisdom' is any good. Founders are the most biased when it comes to customer discovery interviews.

I have listened in on quite a few customer discovery conversations where founders took the lead and been amazed at what they think they heard. Small signs of enthusiasm turn into 'they loved it!' while negative comments are often ignored (classic confirmation bias).

However, outsourcing it to a digital agency and waiting for a report is bad for different reasons (expensive, likelihood to ignore the findings, hindsight bias, etc.)

As an advisor to quite a few local startups, I still haven't found what the 'right' approach is...

<comment><USER2> I recommend founders end customer discovery interviews by asking for a purchase (or a preorder/letter of intent, depending on the situation). This is the most immediate way to testing whether a customer's really willing to pay.

<comment><USER4> i completely agree! when we were asking discovery questions, people tend to want to talk about the pain point and that gives you an illusion of validation. as soon as we ask, so how much would you pay for this? the conversation shifts and the true priorities come out.

<comment><USER3> Take any answer to a question phrased as "would you do XYZ" as essentially worthless.

It's all reported behavior and can/will differ vastly from actual behavior - especially in regards to willingness to pay.

Instead focus on behaviors they are already exhibiting (e.g., what are you buying now in this space/category, and why?).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> There's quite a few but it depends on your product. I've done over 30+ product launches and gained about 25M users in total as an outside consultant working with companies to help them do launches.

The questions that always help me suggest the best tools are as follows:

* Have money to spend or not?

* B2C or B2B

* Age Segment targetting

* Trigger Frequency of potential customer

* # of players in the space

* Have you been through 4 product iterations or are you trying to have a big splash without a designated purpose?

* Do you have your own email list?

If you can answer some of these questions, I can recommend the best tools and if you have any questions about tooling/analytics, I can point you in the right direction and tell you where I've failed in product launches as well.

<comment><USER6> Not OP. But my startup is pre-launch and I have answers to those questions. Where can I send them?

<comment><USER5> email me or comment here.

<comment><USER5> kumar(at) engineersf (dot) com

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> There are, however, I think people worry too much about launching. It helps for a short period of time, but then people move on to tomorrow's product hunt submissions.

What's more important is nailing a distribution strategy. Focusing and executing on distribution is difference between Airbnb and everyone else.

Source - [https://growthhackers.com/growth- studies/airbnb](https://growthhackers.com/growth-studies/airbnb)

</comment><comment><USER8> Customer acquisition should absolutely only be done by the founder in the beginning. This is the most important part of your fledgling business and one you cannot afford to outsource.

<comment><USER9> Really? That would be like saying coding, accounting, HR, Marketing, Sales etc should only be done by the founder at the beginning. This is not realistic for anyone but the smallest business and could falter some attempts to create a business by the founder trying do everything them self.

Getting assistance can be good/bad based on quality of said assistance. I can't see an absolute rule here about the founder being hands on or not.

<comment><USER10> Coding & sales should also absolutely be done by the founding team at the beginning. The other functions can be outsourced.

The reason is because of the feedback loop between sales, product, and coding. You learn very important lessons in the early stages of a startup about who your customers are, what they care about, and what is technically possible to deliver. You're at a huge advantage if you can turn those lessons into product features within the hour rather than within the 2-week iteration.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> [http://www.theonion.com/article/apple-unveils-new-product- un...](http://www.theonion.com/article/apple-unveils-new-product-unveiling- product-2162)

</comment><comment><USER12> Not generally a good idea, but please post a link to the product to get more specific feedback. A product is not a business yet. Before you sink money into a launch you'd want to go from "I think I have a good product" to "I know I have a good product" (some people refer to this as product-market fit).

</comment><comment><USER13> I run a company that among other things, works with mid to early stage startups (as in, some folks with an idea). We help them build the product (design, development), launch it and do marketing. My email is in my profile if you have any questions, etc.

I recommend nailing down exactly what you think an MVP should look like and iterating on early customer feedback.

It's important to stress that we are there to help startups augment their teams at later stages, but by no means can we replace the culture and passion of a dedicated team working night and day to make your dreams come true. We can build you something fantastic, help you grow a user base, but at the end of the day the road to most effective profitability and vision is in the hands of the founder.

</comment><comment><USER14> We just launched our SaaS service for bloggers last week (after 9 long months of work). After seeking an answer to this question myself in the past, I think I've learned enough to partially answer this question.

Here's a few takeaways:

1\. Definitely prepare for launch DURING development, and ideally start on day 1 (or ASAP). Set up a pre-launch page and explain your upcoming product. Collect as many emails as you can. This gives you ample time to ensure that you don't launch to crickets when the big day comes.

2\. If you are not famous or well known, it will be 10-100x harder to gain traction, but not impossible. Luck also plays a bigger part if you are unknown and/or have little to no connections.

3\. No one will understand your product/service better than you. You need to outline all the benefits your service provides via blogging, landing page, explainer video, etc. We hired a video creation company to create our explainer video, but ended up re-writing the script ourselves and basically produced the whole video (other than the graphics, music, and voiceover).

4\. You can hire a PR company, but they are very limited on what they can do especially if working with a limited budget. In this case you still need to give them interesting things to write about, since like I stated above, no one will understand your product/service and its benefits better than you. PR results OBVIOUSLY can be hit or miss and don't guarantee any results.

5\. Long-term growth is usually a fairly standard procedure, and most successful companies follow a similar common formula. Have a blog and regularly post blog posts that would interest your potential market. In our case it's bloggers, so our blog will contains posts that bloggers find interesting. Blog content also drastically improves SEO. You can use your arsenal of blog posts and share them when the time is right/relevant (on Quora, Reddit, HN, Linkedin, etc). Over time, organic word-of-mouth growth kicks in (along with compound growth), but until then, you have to do things yourself. Remember: a bunch of little wins = Success. Finding these little wins is hard and time consuming and no one will likely do it for you, especially in the beginning.

To answer your question, I think there's just too many moving parts to outsource all of it to a "growth/traction company" but doing it yourself is very possible as long as you put legitimate time and effort into it.

If you're curious about what service we launched, it's at [http://blogenhancement.com](http://blogenhancement.com)

<comment><USER15> Just checked out what you made, looks neat. Kind of an aside: Please don't ask users to send their password over plain-text in 2017. That's terrifying.

<comment><USER16> Also, it would be good if it used https by default, the sign-up link on the latest version of chrome registers as insecure due to "This page includes a password or credit card input over HTTP. A warning has been added the URL bar.".

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Reach out to Benjamin Bryant ([https://www.linkedin.com/in/bhbryant](https://www.linkedin.com/in/bhbryant)). He was behind Pebble's launch campaigns on Kickstarter ([http://kck.st/2nFRA4a](http://kck.st/2nFRA4a)).

</comment><comment><USER18> My company does this (although I never thought to refer to it as a "PLaaS" company). While most services out there focus on promotion, launch plan, sales automation, advertising, etc. I find those activities to be mostly about execution. Most startups struggle much sooner than that, with strategy. They struggle in the planning and validation of the product idea and the business model itself. Basically, they shortcut this stuff (often because they love their idea and are already convinced the world wants it). Then they find out after launch how real the real world can be. In reality, there is a ton of work to do way before any of the tactical "go to market" stuff can happen. You have to have an impeccably clear understanding of your value prop, your audience, and your sustainable differentiation. After all, if you don't have a sustainably unique idea that clearly adds value to a well defined audience, you don't need to launch or market your idea. Instead, you need to go back to the drawing board and identify your core value creation more clearly. Also, you need to have a well vetted, living business plan that does more than simply document your intentions. For new business/product/service ideas, we use a proprietary business planning system that focuses on risk management, among other things. As part of the process, we help entrepreneurs understand their customers really well. From there we can build the business around delivering value to them. Any respectable entrepreneur should be busting their a$$ day and night to get their business going, but that doesn't mean they have to do it all themselves. It simply means they have to find a way to get it all done and they have to understand it all. No business gets off the ground by one person working in a silo. So I have respectfully disagree with he comments that the founder must do this work. I strongly believe that founders, just like everyone else, have certain strengths and weakness and the most successful ones find a way to get help in areas where they are not so strong.

</comment><comment><USER19> I do that. Shoot me an email. Ill try and answer any questions you may have. No bs or strings.

</comment><comment><USER20> Products are things that help people accomplish something. Without initial customers, how do you know you've built something that people need?

Have you tested it with users? If so, and they haven't paid you money for it, why not?

It's not a good product if no one uses it.

</comment><comment><USER21> You're basically asking if you can outsource your startup. I'm sure you've heard that in startups, the idea is worthless, it's all about execution. Execution is mostly what you just called "product launch." It's figuring out how to cost-effectively acquire and retain your customers, assuming you got product/market fit right on the first attempt. (hint: you didn't)

I'm sure there are agencies that would gladly take your money to do the things you listed, but they won't produce a working business model.

Rather than thinking of it as the product launch, you should think of it as your first experiment to test product/market fit.

</comment><comment><USER22> There is one problem with this service offering (and it isn't insurmountable). Put yourself in the position of a founder who just spent the last 12-18+ months building your startup. Would you then be willing to hand over the reigns to someone else or to some firm to do the launching for you? Especially when the launch is pretty much the one and only chance the company has to get off the ground? Outsourcing really only makes sense when you can transfer the risk in a way that mitigates it. Here it feels like you would be increasing risk of failure if for no other reason that the launch firm has less to lose if you fail than you would.

</comment><comment><USER23> I've tried starting something like this a couple of times, but want to do it full time someday. I would focus on the web building side of things, but would need someone with more charisma to do the promotional side. Regardless, I haven't really sunk the time needed or capital, which doesn't really hold well when trying to start a company :P Maybe some day.

</comment><comment><USER24> As far as branding goes, tailorbrands[1] does an excellent job at getting a professional image setup. As others have mentioned there are still large areas that could use help with business dynamics and goals.

[1] [https://www.tailorbrands.com](https://www.tailorbrands.com) (Not affiliated, just impressed with their offering)

</comment><comment><USER25> Gigster offers ad-hoc engineering teams that can help you launch, promote and scale. Some of their engineers are employed at social media companies and would undoubtedly prove useful for what you're trying to do. [https://gigs.to/r/zdBxq5F](https://gigs.to/r/zdBxq5F)

</comment><comment><USER26> [http://www.smartfoundations.ca/](http://www.smartfoundations.ca/)

</comment><comment><USER27> We do that with my agence Mozza (mozza.io) but it doesn't work if you do nothing in the meantime. You can deleguate a part of your work and get guidance, but ultimately you can't replace the effort you and your team will put in building the right product by understand your users.

</comment><comment><USER28> That's what PR agencies do. It's not cheap, but it's certainly available.

<comment><USER9> PR is a small piece of the pie. I would personally not recommend a PR agency to lead a launch.

<comment><USER29> A PR company is likely to have suitable strategies and contacts to launch to a local market. I'm not sure they'd be the best bet if you were launching a typical SAAS product to a general global market. For a local launch, a lot of it is teeing up publicity and knowledge of the contacts and what they want is critical. For something global, so much of the work is content production that you may be better off trying to do it yourself.

<comment><USER30> I think of PR as having a fundamentally reactive posture, even when they're ahead of the messaging. Marketing, where there are many freelancers and consultants, would be a much better spend towards creating a strategic approach.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> [http://producthunt.com](http://producthunt.com) is how a lot of startups do it nowadays, and reporters are usually in there looking—so if it's interesting it may also get pickup.

</comment><comment><USER32> You've described a marketing agency.

Whether or not a startup can justify the expense is really between you and your investors because it will likely be a very significant outlay. There's a reason most people DIY as much as they can.

<comment><USER33> I think OP means a more modern HNish way of launching online to Product Hunt kind of sites. Marketing agencies are a bit stuck in the past

<comment><USER32> I sometimes question the startup herd mentality. "Why would I go to a company who have been managing product launches —amongst every other aspect of marketing— for decades, when I could find a small garage outfit that wants to do everything with NFC?"

Sometimes established industries aren't always bad. Nor does their age mean they're only doing what they did on day one. These companies only survive if their clients survive. Age denotes success.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> I'd say [http://www.growthgeeks.com/](http://www.growthgeeks.com/) is my favorite source for this. They have lots of different people that can help you out.

</comment><comment><USER35> If it is a B2C product launch, you have Retail as a Service : Airflash, which gives you access to Early Customers,Bloggers,Connects to Wholesale Distributors and Retail Access through popup stores

www.airflash.co

</comment><comment><USER36> I've heard [https://startuplister.com/](https://startuplister.com/) is pretty good bang for the buck.

</comment><comment><USER37> sounds like you should do your research. All depends on what EXACTLY you want and how much your willing to spend... If someone did that theyd want money for it.

</comment><comment><USER38> [https://www.bluechilli.com](https://www.bluechilli.com)

</comment><comment><USER39> There is this:

[http://launchrock.com](http://launchrock.com)

</comment><comment><USER40> I think pretty much every "social media" (ugh) company will do that for you

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes, but the approach for launch vs. general promotion would be much different. Also, if there was a company with any type of portfolio it would be best.

</comment></comment><comment><USER41> Lest the HN bots think I am over selling my startup,

Check out www.crowdraising.co

</comment><comment><USER42> I believe this is called an event planner?

<comment><USER43> ? How so? I thought "event planners", planned shows and conferences, not product launches.</comment></comment>


Twitter employees threatened by ISIS-affiliated group - <AUTHOR> http://blog.sfgate.com/stew/2014/09/08/twitter-employees-threatened-by-isis-affiliated-group/

<comment><USER2> When we expect, and depend on, the truth coming out, entities involved in spreading information take on responsibilities they may not have expected. Yes, that means Twitter, and even Comedy Central.

Anyone remember the South Park episode with Mohammed, but in a bear suit so it would be "okay"? Comedy Central showed where they stood on free speech by letting that episode air.

Then, when Comedy Central employees were threatened, they also showed where they stood on free speech by aggressively censoring the following episode.

Chilling effects ...

So now there's Twitter. I pray for the best for their employees, and I hope they're secured in ways they can truly trust ... because I'd hate to see Twitter bend to such threats. Actions set precedents.

It's amazing what chilling effects can do. Hell, just today, the Dutch Safety Board said the Boeing 777 passenger plane shot down near Ukraine was "downed by high energy object outside of plane" [1]. The whole planet knows it was a missile, but the Dutch are afraid of pissing of Putin, so they tone down their language to the point of saying as little as possible.

[1] [http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/sep/9/malaysia- flig...](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/sep/9/malaysia- flight-17-likely-downed-high-energy-objec/)</comment>


Hawaii warns tourists of parasitic worm that can burrow into human brains - <AUTHOR> https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/05/hawaii-warns-tourists-of-parasitic-worm-that-can-burrow-into-human-brains/ <comment><USER2> _the wandering worm primarily takes up residence in rats' lungs, where female worms lay their eggs. Young worms leave the nest early to find their own windy homes, though. Larvae get coughed up into rats' throats then swallowed. The hosting rat eventually poops out the young parasites, which then get gobbled up by feces-feasting snails and slugs (intermediate hosts). When other rodents come along and eat those infected mollusks, the prepubescent parasites migrate to the rats' brains to mature before settling into the lungs and reproducing. The cycle then starts again_

      1. rat lung
      2. rat throat
      3. rat stomach
      4. rat poop
      5. slugs
      6. rat brains
      7. rat lung
      8. GOTO 1

It never ceases to amaze me, the life cycle of a parasite. So that's 7 steps with wildly varying probabilities of success. That it actually works is mind blowing.

<comment><USER3> You've got one line extra in your little program :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I want to highlight that the symptoms section was subtitled "All in your head".

<comment><AUTHOR> This article is written by Ars Technica's Beth Mole. Her writing style is well-known by now. ( And much appreciated. )

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> @Katzenjammer, I have to think it's a combination of signaling, timing and specific available nutrients (mammals and mollusks only) and biomass.

It's even weirder, because the lungs cough up, eat, swallow, poop the eggs. Snails eat rat poop, and then hatch the eggs and poop larva in their slime. Rats eat the snails and the larva infest and follow the nerves up the spine. Once sexual maturity is reach they go to the lungs to spawn and die. The distance is too far in humans, so they actually only have enough time as sexually mature adults to cross the distance of a rat's body. When they die inside a human, they've spent too much time and traveled the distance of longer than more than one rat's body.

</comment><comment><USER6> Who else read the title "Huawei", and wondered why they'd warn about such thing?

<comment><USER7> Yep, interesting phenomenon.

<comment><USER8> Dyslexics of the world, untie!

<comment><USER6> Can dyslexia be occurring only once in a while?

<comment><USER8> Yes, mine is infrequent but usually hits with numbers.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I remember watching one of those emergency room shows years back. Three guys go in for swelling in the brain, due to the rat worm. Their conditions got worse, until they administered immunosuppressants, as the doctors assumed that their immune system was reacting to the dead worms. Apparently when they die in a hosts brain, they release antigens. Toxic I think.

</comment><comment><USER10> It seems like this could be prevented by cooking fruits and vegetables.

I always knew salads weren't really healthy!

On a serious note, I may actually avoid salads and try to find a way to cook fruit quickly instead of eating it raw.

<comment><AUTHOR> _Officials noted that a person in one of the latest confirmed cases became infected in December of 2018 after purposely swallowing a slug on a dare._

Leave it to human stupidity to always find a way.

<comment><USER11> There was a widely reported and tragic story of a young man doing the same thing in Australia some years ago (Sam Ballard). I would have to assume his fate was unknown to the current patient.

<comment><USER12> I never heard of him nor these specific parasites but I remember learning in school that snails and slugs are hosts for many kinds of parasites. Which is why I would nor eat one, especially uncooked.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Show HN: Badger.com, a new domain registrar, needs beta testers (1 free domain) - badger-com

We've been hard at work creating a new domain registrar and now we want some feedback to help us figure out where to go from here!
The first 100 users to signup using this URL will get 1 free domain Credit:
https://www.badger.com/#register/hackernews
--- Please please please give us feedback! ---
P.S.  We only support .com and .net at the moment but we'll be adding about a dozen more extensions in the next couple of weeks. <comment><AUTHOR> Awesome, thanks! Just used it to find and register a useful domain in under 10mins.

SO much less headache than Go Daddy - very speedy.

I also love the search feature, letting you know it's available while you're typing.

That's how I actually found the domain I registered!

I was a bit confused when using URL forwarding as it automatically appended /path to the source. So I removed that. I found I had to type my destination in, then click on the source box to make /path disappear and then press Add to get it to add forwarding to the root of the site.

Many thanks again. If I can provide a more detailed write up/feedback let me know.

<comment> badger-com Thanks for the compliments! The "/path" issue with URL forwarding sounds like a bug... we'll look into it. What browser are you using?

</comment></comment><comment><USER2> Love it. I like how every domain typed in the search box shows instantly and is saved on the right as we type new ones in.

Thanks for the credit as well!

</comment><comment><USER3> Looks nice! (And a lot easier to use than godaddy)

I'll be creating an extra domain tonight and pointing it towards my webapp. If all goes well I'll look at moving my other domain registrations over as they expire on godaddy.

Only downside would be the price seems a little steep compared to the typical godaddy pricing with a coupon code...

</comment><comment><USER4> Brilliant work. I've never actually enjoyed searching for domains before! Depending on how the service holds up, I'll definitely look into transferring my domains over from GoDaddy.

Quick question: do the credits expire? I don't have a domain to register right now, but would love to use my credit later.

</comment><comment><USER5> Well laid out site, I just might have to port over my domain. Sick of Godaddy....

One gripe though. I registered a new domain to check out the interface, but it was not immediately obvious that you offered DNS services. I might have ported over my domain today had I known this beforehand.

</comment><comment><USER6> I loved it. My main domain is up for renewal from godaddy soon and if your prices are OK I'll move it over. Automating the DNS verification of Google Docs would be awesome (if that's possible), even if it's to some degree. I'll send more comments after I've tried it out some.

<comment> badger-com Our prices are $10-15 per domain depending on how many credits you buy at a time.

Better integration with Google Apps is already high on our list... check back soon!

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> On top of the simplicity, design, and overall awesome feel of the website, the greatest thing is the privacy feature. Having everything in the WHOIS set to private is awesome and I applaud you for that. Godaddy charges an absurd price to make the WHOIS record private. Thank you!

<comment> badger-com You're welcome! Having privacy enabled by default was one of the easier product decisions for us simply because having it any other way didn't make sense. Any other feedback?

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> I found a bug in your signup process: If the passwords you enter on the signup form don't match, it gives you an error, but creates the account anyway — so when you retype the passwords, it then tells you it can't create the account because the email is already used.

<comment> badger-com You've found a bug! I just fixed this so hopefully it won't happen again. If you're not able to login, give the "Forgot Password" link a try!

<comment><USER8> Thanks. Yeah, "Forgot Password" link was the first thing I tried and it worked perfectly, but I thought you'd like to know about the bug anyway. Silly little things like that can be hell on your bounce rate.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Very nice! Speaking as a non-US resident, the fact that 'State' be a mandatory field in the profile registration form is a bit annoying but I can understand why that's the default. Maybe that could be optional if the country field is set to nations other than the US?

<comment> badger-com Great point! I'll add this to our todo list. Anything else?

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> Super-nice. I registered a domain painlessly...on a tablet, at that. Minor quibble - don't use fixed screen ratios for everything. But otherwise, great so far. If it keeps up like this I'll transfer in the 5 or 6 domains I have at other registrars (1&1, godaddy).

</comment><comment><USER11> Great UI with lots of polish and this leads to a great user experience. I love the way search history is displayed. A little 'clear history' option might be useful, but refreshing the page has the same effect. I'll be trying this for my next domain purchase.

</comment><comment><USER12> When I click profiles, it puts a big green button in top right but I have an entire empty page with nothing. Maybe you could put something there as well to let the user know they haven't created a profile yet?

</comment><comment><USER13> Really nice service—great UI.

Time for a change after 7yrs Godaddy.

</comment><comment><USER14> Just logged in, first thing that popped up is the "dotted line" around every menu link I clicked. I would suggest adding the following css to your menu a tags: { outline: none;}

<comment><USER14> Absolutely love the way to search for available domains... It was so painful beforehand! Thanks!

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> How have you written this? It's fast and has an interesting feel to it, but I don't recognize the JavaScript framework.

Also, how can I leave feedback from within the site?

<comment> badger-com Thanks for noticing! We built badger.com a bit differently from most sites. Our backend is just a JSON api and the frontend uses this API and is implemented entirely in Javascript using an internal library we'll be releasing soon (code name: Hasher).

API Docs - <http://badger.github.com/>

Frontend Source Code - <http://github.com/badger/frontend>

Hasher JS Lib - [https://github.com/badger/frontend/tree/master/javascripts/l...](https://github.com/badger/frontend/tree/master/javascripts/lib/hasher-0.1.0)

So for example, the Javascript behind our DNS manager can be found here -- [https://github.com/badger/frontend/blob/master/javascripts/d...](https://github.com/badger/frontend/blob/master/javascripts/domains/apps/dns_badger.js)

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> The signup form appears to have a issue. If the passwords don't match I get an error stating "Unable to create person: Email already exists" and I'm not able to continue.

<comment><USER16> OK. I'm able to log in after using the reset password feature which is a bit weird since the signup failed.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Would be great if I could leave comments on your site. I do see an email contact form, but I presume you don't want feedback that way.

</comment><comment><USER18> Looks better than anything I've seen yet. I'll transfer a domain tomorrow to get a better feel for it. Thanks for the free credit.

</comment><comment><USER19> Nice looking site. FYI, I had some trouble with the search box and backspace not working on my older iPhone (iOS 3.1.3).

</comment><comment><USER20> Looks really good, how are you going to handle the different prices for other tlds? Will you be adding .co.uk?

<comment> badger-com Some TLDs will be 2 or 3 credits per year instead of 1. We're still working out pricing on everything.

Yes, we're actively working on the co.uk (and about a dozen more TLDs) and hope to launch quite a few more within the next few weeks.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> I see exactly what you are up to and i love it. I'll give more detailed feedback shortly but BRAVO!

<comment> badger-com Thanks, we look forward to your feedback!

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> seems great. easy UI to navigate and it took very little time to set up my first domain. just gave you guys a shout out on Twitter, hope it helps.

ps. you should start tweeting, so my @ to you turns up interesting stuff!

<comment><USER22> also, two little things:

1\. if you log out then go back to badger.com, there doesn't seem to be a way to log back in if you are in the beta.

2\. for some reason my Whois didn't change from private to public even though I provided and saved the necessary info.

hope this helps

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> oh, so the invite code is no logner available. But nonetheless, great UI! :)

</comment><comment><USER24> Minor bug. The Home and End keys don't seem to work in the search box.

</comment><comment><USER25> !! Quick and painless !! Thanks!

<comment><USER25> Cannot easily uninstall an "APP", but have to delete all records manually (perhaps at least group them?). Side bar doesn't update immediately once DNS entries removed and "APP" uninstalled (chrome).</comment></comment>