Cards Against Humanity is digging a hole in the earth - <AUTHOR> https://holidayhole.com/ <comment><USER2> Their FAQ is also pretty good.

Q: Why aren't you giving all this money to charity? A: Why aren't YOU giving all this money to charity? It's your money.

<comment><USER3> One question is missing though: what if they find gold or other precious materials? Will the backers receive part of the returns?

<comment><USER4> HN, always thinking of the money. Can't we just set aside the technicalities and cash and enjoy a hole for once.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> We were stopped by a TSA agent, who took great care to inspect our Cards Against Humanity deck, and ask lots of questions. Where'd you buy them? What is this? She revealed in the course of the conversation that she'd been banned from shopping on Amazon.

I posit that someone who's banned from shopping at AMZN is more dangerous than someone who plays card games with a dark sense of humor. How does that even happen?

<comment><USER6> _> How does that even happen?_

Fraud and abuse.

Treating Amazon like a mail-in library for books, tools, and other products is the easiest way.

Returning a huge number of your orders regardless of other forms of abuse.

Contesting valid CC charges.

Etc.

 _> I posit that someone who's banned from shopping at AMZN is more dangerous than someone who plays card games with a dark sense of humor._

I wouldn't necessarily say "dangerous". Maybe "untrustworthy" or "lacking in good judgement" or "lacking a strong moral compass".

<comment><USER7> Instead of trying to judge the person, how about we conceive of behaviors?

They could be someone who cycles in and out of addictive or manic shopping. The word that comes to mind for me there is "tragic".

<comment><USER8> I have bipolar disorder, and many (if not most) people with bipolar shop to excess during manic phases. One person in my therapy group spends several thousand dollars on clothing, shoes, technology, etc. in a single day roughly twice per year, and then brings it all back the next day when he realizes that he cannot afford it all. He's banned from J. Crew and Brooks Brothers. I've done similar things (although not to that scale). Ultimately, there can be many reasons for strange or even potentially harmful behavior that one cannot easily control.

<comment><USER9> How do they enforce that ban? Do they check the ID of every shopper who makes a purchase?

<comment><USER10> Set up the POS machines to refuse to process purchases using certain credit card numbers, or based on the name associated with the card, I'm guessing.

<comment><USER11> > or based on the name associated with the card

doubtful that that is a strategy or else there would be a ban on common names.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> This is one of the greatest things I have ever seen. Much better than the laser cutting of a Picasso. CAH is the OK Go of postmodern satire and have outdone themselves. Really incredible art.

I imagine many people not getting this is the same feeling I had growing up and being dragged to museums.

<comment><USER13> I think you are seeing what isn't there. Of course that's the definition of a hole.

"Is there some sort of deeper meaning or purpose to the hole?

No."

<comment><USER14> Isn't deliberate lack of purpose also a purpose?

<comment><USER15> "No."

<comment><USER16> I think the Dada art movement would disagree.

<comment><USER17> Still, their reply is clear.

"No."

<comment><USER14> The FAQ stated there wasn't a purpose to the hole. Not that their lack of purpose wasn't purposeful.

Two different things.

<comment><USER18> I tried digging into this, and got a stack overflow some 10 "no"s in.

<comment><USER19> It seems you need to manually implement tail recursion.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> The folks at CaH have a history of pranks around Black Friday. They've invited people to send them money in exchange for absolutely nothing. They've sold boxes of actual bullshit. My personal favorite was when they raised their prices $5 and called it a 'once in a lifetime' opportunity and they still had record sales.

</comment><comment><USER21> CAH would never admit it, but I feel like at least part of this can be seen as political commentary.

From the top of their page: "The holidays are here, and _everything in America is going really well_ " (emphasis mine).

It's hard for me not to read the last part of that as sarcasm, given many people's reaction to the recent US election.

Perhaps CAH is saying that the US is digging itself a hole by electing Trump and a Republican Senate.

<comment><USER22> > Cards Against Humanity is digging a tremendous hole in the earth.

"tremendous" is one of the words that Donald Trump is very known for using. So I think you're right.

<comment><USER23> People say it's the best hole all the time.

<comment><USER24> It's going to be yuge.

<comment><USER25> And other people are going to pay for it...

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> This is crazy awesome! I just wanted to do a cost breakdown:

0.6s/$ is $6,000/hour (thanks @danielvf).

The excavator is around $2000/day[1].

The truck is around $2200/day[2].

Plus at least two operators with $200/day each[3].

And then the cost of Stripe's fees, buying the land, getting a permit (?), etc.

[1]: [http://www.rentalyard.com/listings/construction- equipment/fo...](http://www.rentalyard.com/listings/construction- equipment/for-rent/list/category/1032/excavators- crawler/manufacturer/caterpillar/model-group/345)

[2]: [http://www.rentalyard.com/listings/construction- equipment/fo...](http://www.rentalyard.com/listings/construction- equipment/for-rent/list/category/1049/off-highway- trucks/manufacturer/caterpillar/model-group/740)

[3]: [http://gcsenergy.ca/wp- content/uploads/2016/04/2016-Hourly-R...](http://gcsenergy.ca/wp- content/uploads/2016/04/2016-Hourly-Rate-Schedule-Revision-1.pdf)

<comment><USER27> The cost per second changes over time. When I first saw the site yesterday afternoon, it was 2.2s / $.

<comment><USER28> Oh, awesome. Hopefully they drastically reduce it.

<comment><USER29> I believe it started at 5 s/$

<comment><USER30> So they have increased their costs by nearly af factor 10?

<comment><USER31> It seems like they settled on a fixed maximum time of hole-digging, and are drastically increasing the cost so as to not exceed it.

<comment><USER32> Yes, they seem to have set the digging period in advance. Somehow that seems dishonest to me. If they knew they were going to dig for 48 hours come what may, they should have said so.

<comment><USER31> My best guess is that the operators of the vehicles, and perhaps the vehicles themselves, need to get back to their real jobs come Monday.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> If you see the glass half full, they are not just digging a hole, they are creating a hill next to it.

<comment><USER34> Lol. Someone should send money in for building the hills.

<comment><USER35> If they feel inspired to work around the whole conservation of mass thing to avoid 'free work', then I'm not going to complain.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> Strongly reminds me of this classic Onion video: [http://www.theonion.com/video/in-the-know-should-the- governm...](http://www.theonion.com/video/in-the-know-should-the-government- stop-dumping-mon-14289)

<comment><USER37> Congrats to the CaH team for privatizing this public need. That's entrepreneurship at its finest.

</comment></comment><comment><USER38> I think the interesting thing about this is to think how weird our economy functions, because at the end of this, all we will have is a net gain for the economy and an empty hole.

<comment><USER39> a) Is it really a net gain for the economy? Not really, unless this hole has some other future productive use, because you're ignoring what this money would have otherwise gone to pay for in lieu of this hole.

b) Funnily enough, the example of paying people to dig random holes is frequently given in economics arguments to illustrate why the Subjective theory of value makes more sense than the Labor theory of value.

C) Holes are made to be filled. Next year's gag is probably filling the hole back up with something.

<comment><USER40> I'd say it is a net gain. The money went to pay the company that dug the hole who used the money to pay their contractors working on the project, equipment leases, gasoline, etc. It will also end up being mentioned on the various blog and news outlets all selling ads against the story of the hole. CAH will also sell more product because of the hole & subsequent publicity. It looks like an increase in GDP (aka net gain for the economy) to me.

<comment><USER32> All the money I don't spend on absurd acts of Dadaism I just spend on liquor, which is bad for me and occasionally for those around me. So the world is probably a little bit better off for the money I spent on digging this hole.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER41> I have spent last night laughing at this.

I have spent this morning depressing about it.

<comment><USER42> I just found the site 5 minutes a go.

I still can't stop laughing.

This is so marvelously stupid, I love it.

      What do I get for contributing money to the hole?
      A deeper hole. What else are you going to buy, an iPod?

<comment><USER41> What depresses me is the fact that $77k can easily run a startup for over a year in my country.

<comment><USER43> Seems similar, since the average startup temporarily employs people and results in nothing (although over a longer period of time).

<comment><USER44> The opportunity cost of the people digging the hole should be lower, and at the end, at least they'll have a hole. A clear win over the median startup.

Besides, they are literally changing the world.

<comment><USER28> Awe, hey we end up with more than a empty hole! What about all of the dead code!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> _"...some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn."_

If ever there was an appropriate event for the quote.

<comment><USER32> For $90K, you could probably buy an old house and literally burn it down. It would probably take some doing to convince the fire department to let you do it legally, but with enough money it should be possible to take enough safeguards, particularly if the house is remote to begin with.

</comment></comment><comment><USER45> If you're thinking of donating, [http://www.givewell.org/donate](http://www.givewell.org/donate)

<comment><USER46> I was inspired to write the following short story, and couldn't really help myself. I hope it is worth the amount of page space it occupies.

\---

A few weeks into the maiden voyage of the Interplanetary Transport System, a middle-aged woman named Alex Kimber sat quietly in the library behind the kitchen. The term "library" is perhaps a bit gracious. American walk-in closets back on Earth were often larger than this enclosure.

It was a good place for thinking, though. Not surprisingly, the compact spaceship didn't provide much privacy, as each additional pound of weight came with a $200 price tag.

Alex was near the peak of an enviable career. She possessed master's degrees in two different engineering fields as well as in political science, was the founder of two companies valued in the $10M to $100M range, and had held multiple advisory positions with her state's long term development board.

Her fellow voyagers were good company. Only the highest caliber applicants had been accepted for the first 10 missions. These "founding missions" were responsible for building a secure base capable of housing at least 5,000 individuals. All within five years! This would be an immense challenge. They would be testing the prototype blueprint for a self-sustaining Mars base.

These difficulties, however, were not on Alex's mind. She was ruminating on more fundamental matters. As both a scientist and passionate student of modern philosophy, her personal framework for understanding life was strongly colored by materialism and absurdism. On a pragmatic level, however, she found much peace and stability through mindfulness.

She had always felt that greatest institutions of the current age were severely lacking in their integration of such principles. The chance to tend to the young seeds of the first society on Mars played no small role in her willingness to risk so much and join the expedition.

Over the years, as she pondered the deepest dynamics of human relationships on both the micro and macro scales, Alex had scribbled down notes here and there. Yet she often still struggled to summarize her views.

An unexpected connection sparked in the unseen layers of her subconscious mind, and she opened her laptop. She began browsing through her collection of saved articles and other media. She clicked the "post-modern" tag, and a diverse set of articles, blog entries, lectures, and videos filled the screen.

The whimsical title "Cards against Humanity is digging a hole in the Earth" jumped out. She opened the file. Vaguely remembering this offbeat stunt from more than a decade and half ago, she couldn't help but smile.

Some moments passed. Her thoughts turned serious. A few clicks later, and a blinking cursor yearned at her from the blank canvas of the editor. Like a hurricane forming from the gentle flaps of a butterfly's wings, the keys of her laptop softly succumbed to the pressure of her fingertips, and the text "Mars Political Treatise: Volume 1" filled the first line of the page...

<comment><USER47> This is awesome :) You should keep writing it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER48> I'm imagining the next year.

Black Friday 2017 - plot twist! For each $10 donated, CAH will put $7 in cash in the hole (using the remaining $3 to secure it against elements). At the end of the fundraiser, they'll fill the hole back in, creating a literal case of hidden underground treasure.

</comment><comment><USER34> Next time they should take donations for a deep learning system. They will promise to train the machine with data from CaH, Reddit, and 4chan. It will then output the next set of Cards Against Humanity. Their bullshit will be at the level of some tech companies posted here often. Whereas, fans might actually get something back for their money later. :)

</comment><comment><USER25> I, for one, am incredibly saddened by this. Not against CaH directly, per se, but at the psychology of people's propensity to spend money.

Over the past 3 years, I have created about 4 or 5 web apps, and sunk my own money into them to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars. In most cases, it was a struggle to get people to pay even $3/month for one of them, and I ended up shuttering some of them.

The feeling I get from this is that hundreds and hundred of hours of blood, sweat and tears from me, (which includes 50 years of knowledge, and personal sacrifices that I and my family have had to make) is, at the end of the day, worth less than a hole in the earth.

Excuse me while I go sit in a darkened room and ruminate about this over a glass of wine.

<comment><USER49> _In most cases, it was a struggle to get people to pay even $3 /month for one of them, and I ended up shuttering some of them. The feeling I get from this is that hundreds and hundred of hours of blood, sweat and tears from me, (which includes 50 years of knowledge, and personal sacrifices that I and my family have had to make) is, at the end of the day, worth less than a hole in the earth._

I've been there, so please don't take this the wrong way, but yes, your hundreds of hours of blood, sweat, and tears may mean less than a hole in the ground. And why shouldn't it?

Your hard work _on its own_ means basically nothing to anyone. People buy because of the perceived value _to them_ of what they're buying, not because of what the seller did or didn't put into it. If people weren't going to pay $3 / month for your project, it's because you weren't offering them at least $3 / month of perceived value.

There is basically no connection that I can see between how much hard work goes into something and how much the market is willing to pay for it. Some people labor a lifetime on something that no one will ever want, others spend a weekend throwing together a website that will one day IPO for billions [1].

This is why so many successful startup founders and investors advise getting a project out there as quickly as possible and iterating rapidly to either find product / market fit, or to abandon it for something else. Fighting an uphill battle to make people want something that they don't care about, just because you've poured so much into it is a recipe for disaster.

Again, I've been there, so please don't take any of this the wrong way! Just my own rumination in response.

1\. Yes, a lot of hard work goes into it along the way, but that's a hell of a lot easier with early success.

<comment><USER25> I totally agree with you about the value perception, and don't take your post in the wrong way at all.

But seeing people put even $10 into the 'hole' project just highlights that someone, somewhere, thinks that giving their hard earned $10 is better value to them than an app that costs $3. More than 3 times the worth, really.

That kind of thing really sucks, to me. I've spent a few dollars here and there in the past to support people whom I think deserved it for their efforts - be it a small trinket at a craft fair or a CD from a busking musician in the street. To me, spending money on the efforts of their craft (even if it is on things I didn't really need) rather than a cup of coffee, or a hole, says to them "I think that your efforts and creative energy are worth something, and I am willing to give you some of my hard earned cash to prove its worth". Even giving a few dollars to a homeless person is leveraging the money for the betterment of humanity.

The sadness here is the fact that I live in a society that thinks a hole in the ground is worth more that someone's creative output. All the worse for the fact that they are prepared to make a statement about it by quite literally throwing away money to make their point. Is this the every day person's equivalent of lighting up cigars with $100 bills?

<comment><USER50> The problem is, a hole in the ground is indeed often worth more than someone's creative output, because many people's creative output has negative worth. Silicon valley has fixated on behaviors that are actively harmful to users-- corporate surveillance, spam, poor security, etc. In some cases these behaviors are damaging society as a whole.

I put $10 in the hole. If such a thing existed, I'd be willing to put a lot more toward any effort that would plausibly put Facebook out of business without an equally evil alternative arising.

I can't say the same for your apps, since I don't know you or your apps, but the average app I wouldn't install for free, because I know they would collect my data and use it against my interests.

<comment><USER25> Valid point re: collection of data in apps. Mine don't do that, but of course I understand that a lot of people have that natural suspicion these days. I didn't think of that aspect and am grateful you pointed it out.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER51> I keep waiting for the day cynical businesses will cut out the middlemen and make a point using only their own resources. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K_Foundation_Burn_a_Million_Qu...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K_Foundation_Burn_a_Million_Quid)

<comment><USER52> That's exactly the point they are making and have been for the last two years. They were able to sell actual 'bull shit' to people last year and jacked up their prices last to last year and yet sales went higher than ever before. The margins from last year were distributed among employees to do as they saw fit and can be seen on their website (a lot of them decided to donate). The last to last years' went all to charity.

They are making a point against the blind consumerism. And that too in style.

Companies have donated more than $1k in some cases and CAH makes it look a mockery of them throwing their money into a literal hole for advertisement.

</comment></comment><comment><USER53> "From the widest gulley to the deepest trench, holes define who we are and where we are going." \- Rainier Wolfcastle

<comment><USER54> Linking just to save others the search.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDONJhEo0RI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDONJhEo0RI)

</comment></comment><comment><USER55> An interesting question is what volume of earth could they move in the allotted time with this equipment. In the live feed it looks like they are making the hole wide, rather than deep though. It would be fun if they accidentally dug up a massive fossil find or something like that.

</comment><comment><USER56> Funny, I'm watching two different fundraisers progress. One for election integrity and one for digging a hole.

<comment><USER57> And only one of those fundraisers was up front about what they were collecting the money for.

</comment></comment><comment><USER58> I think what amuses me most is that the biggest donors seem to be people looking to advertise.

At the moment it's a vehicle code scanner, LEO/Tachical gear, flavored nicotine (I guess?), and a BBQ thermometer.

<comment><USER52> That's exactly what they have been trying to critique for the last two years on Black Fridays. Blind consumerism. Advertisers are literally throwing money at a hole in the ground.

They even state at their page "Why don't you donate this to a charity?" and they reply, "It's your money. Why don't YOU donate it to a charity.".

It's almost like we are looking past the mirror they have held up for us in our faces.

</comment></comment><comment><USER59> If you find this interesting and would like to read about another money pit, HN led me to read about the Oak Island Money Pit many months ago.

[http://www.activemind.com/Mysterious/topics/oakisland/story....](http://www.activemind.com/Mysterious/topics/oakisland/story.html)

</comment><comment><USER60> A wonderful critique of capitalist ideology... and so on and so on. _sniff_ \--Slavoj Zizek

<comment><USER61> The appeal to vulgarity is a tired cliche of social critique. At this point, no one can make a fresh point about it. Now it's just exploitation of the weak.

<comment><USER50> At this point, saying that an economic activity is an exploitation of the weak is redundant.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER62> Uhm can someone explain to nonUS audience what exactly is this Cards Against Humanity?

<comment><USER63> A party card game about combining cards with tasteless jokes on them to make larger tasteless jokes.

The company is also known for viral marketing campaigns, like mail-order poo.

They also have a more elaborate social deduction game called Secret Hitler about politics in Weimar Germany. With cartoon lizards.

<comment><USER64> This game (Secret Hitler) ruined quite of few nights when I was an exchange student: people kept playing it while it was limited to only 10 players IIRC and was an obvious albeit less-fun rip off of the game "Les Loups-garous de Thiercelieux"[1].

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Werewolves_of_Millers_Holl...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Werewolves_of_Millers_Hollow)

<comment><USER65> That sounds like it is itself a ripoff of the game Mafia [1] which is ubiquitous in the US. Unless it came first, I guess.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mafia_(party_game)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mafia_\(party_game\))

<comment><USER66> If Secret Hitler is a ripoff of anything, it's Avalon, which is similar to Mafia/Werewolf, but is much deeper and lacks the issue of player elimination.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER67> I wish I could give more than ~$1.797693 x (10^308).

That means that they can't dig longer than ~3.417998 x (10^300) years.

If you'd like to find the exact amount, you can copy this into the custom amount field and keep altering digits until you come up with the right number:

      179769313000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

I have a feeling whatever the actual number is would be extremely important to our survival as a species, like something I'd need to enter into an Apple II+ every 108 minutes to discharge electromagnetic energy safely or the "Underworld" hieroglyphs would be displayed.

[http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Hieroglyphs](http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Hieroglyphs)

<comment><USER68> [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-precision_floating- poin...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-precision_floating-point_format)

</comment></comment><comment><USER69> The people they hired to do this have got to be thinking this is the weirdest job they have ever, or will ever, get paid to do.

</comment><comment><USER70> HTTP ERROR 503. Can't access the website anymore. Seems like they weren't prepared for such high traffic!

</comment><comment><USER71> This is a more powerful critique of rampant consumerism than I've seen in my University courses.

<comment><USER50> That's because university economics courses are typically taught by economists with a vested interest in the continuation of rampant consumerism.

</comment></comment><comment><USER72> This does not appear to violate the First Rule of Holes, and should, therefore, be acceptable.

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_holes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_holes)

</comment><comment><USER73> This reminded me of "The Hole" [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAIbvlobWDM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAIbvlobWDM)

</comment><comment><USER74> Well I'm glad someone is taking on that Herculean task. We can check that off our 'Humanity' bucket list ... It's funny and profoundly depressing at the same time.

</comment><comment><USER75> I seem to recall a TV show about this subject. Yes, here it is: [http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/going-deep-with- david-...](http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/going-deep-with-david- rees/interactives/getting-graphically-deep-with-david-rees-how-to-dig-a-hole/)

</comment><comment><USER76> If this becomes a viral thing that never dies, can we who are trying to do little business things which can't reach sustainability due to this sort of nonsense sucking all the air out of the room… be BURIED in this hole?

…we're gonna need a bigger hole. Keep going.

</comment><comment><USER77> Getting wider rather than deeper.

</comment><comment><USER78> The site has been down for the past 5 minutes [http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/holidayhole.com](http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/holidayhole.com)

</comment><comment><USER79> This is so remarkably non-nonsensical and fun. Not that I'd throw money at it. I'd be curious what they did if they accidentally struck water or an underground fiber optic cable.

</comment><comment><USER70> I can't access the website anymore. HTTP ERROR 503. Did they take it down because some legal action was taken against them or they weren't prepared for high traffic?

</comment><comment><USER67> Are we sure this isn't some ruse to fund a fallout shelter?

</comment><comment><USER80> According to the FAQ, the hole is supposed to get deeper, but the guys are just widening the hole. Can you guys please correct that? Thanks.

</comment><comment><USER81> I get the joke. I also find it stupid. But YMMV.

</comment><comment><USER82> What is the excavators' contract? Did they agree to just dig three shifts 24/7 for an unspecified amount of time?

</comment><comment><USER83> I hope that next year they will fill it back in. Or maybe even this holiday season if they can get enough funds.

<comment><USER84> They will fill it in after the stream is finished this year.

[https://twitter.com/c_frieds/status/802217118964023296](https://twitter.com/c_frieds/status/802217118964023296)

</comment></comment><comment><USER85> I'd be shocked if it wasn't a video of a hole already being dug for some other purpose.

<comment><USER86> Look into the company's history, I'd be shocked if it was anything other than what they said it was.

</comment></comment><comment><USER87> So who's starting the fundraiser to decide what to put in the tremendous hole?

</comment><comment><USER88> This feels like Clickhole or The Onion but with real commitment. Excellent.

</comment><comment><USER89> For that money they could have hired a hundred men for a week.

</comment><comment><USER90> Why did I just spend 15 minutes watching this?

</comment><comment><USER91> My guess is that this isn't just a hole it's a building whose purpose we will find out about at a later date.

I threw in 15 dollars for entertainment purposes.

<comment><USER92> This is Cards Against Humanity, if it's anything other then just a hole in the ground, it'll be very much outside of their usual black-friday offerings.

<comment><USER91> That isn't how it played out in 2015. They said give us money for nothing and then they spent it on stuff including giving a week off to their factory workers and buying stuff for the staff.

<comment><USER93> "For nothing" has 2 meanings and I think you are thinking it meant "for us to do nothing with". I think it meant "give us money and you get nothing". I could be wrong though.

<comment><USER91> In their own words... "Cards Against Humanity is known for our charitable fundraising - since 2012 we've raised nearly $4 million for organizations we love like Worldbuilders, the Sunlight Foundation, the EFF, DonorsChoose.org, the Wikimedia Foundation, and the Chicago Design Museum. We even started a $500,000 full-ride scholarship for women getting degrees in science." [https://cardsagainsthumanity.com/blackfriday/](https://cardsagainsthumanity.com/blackfriday/)

They don't have a history of burning money. It's inconsistent with past behavior as well as their own description of themselves.

<comment><USER6> This dig operation is likely very profitable. I'd be unsurprised if those profits get donated to something.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER94> Evil people .. They must have an hidden plan .. Like burying a big time capsule with the worst items of our era... Not nice !

<comment><USER95> The worst item of our era? Cards against Humanity?

<comment><USER67> Maybe they are reburying the Atari 2600 E.T. cartridges using a deeper hole this time in an undisclosed location. Perhaps they were never meant to be uncovered.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER96> But why?

<comment><USER97> > But why?

So that you ask exactly that question.

<comment><USER98> I don't understand when people argue like that. It's like punching someone in the face and when they ask what the hell is wrong with you answering, "Ha! I knew you would be confused!"

<comment><USER18> QED.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER99> That is bull crap

</comment><comment><USER100> Irony here is the SSL cert being from Amazon.

</comment><comment><USER99> That is so dumb

</comment><comment><USER101> >Can't we just set aside the technicalities and cash and enjoy a hole for once.

I tried presenting that argument to the judge, but I still got sentenced :(

<comment><USER102> Sorry, these jokes aren't funny anymore.

<comment><USER101> I'm sorry you feel that way.

I would suggest you stay away from Cards Against Humanity (and threads thereabout), as jokes like these are literally the game's _raison d 'être_.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER103> So, now we are helping destroy the environment for sarcasm? Seriously, what's wrong with these people?

<comment><USER104> It's what the market wants, apparently. The digging will continue while the market exists. I thinks it's brilliant performance art and provides some introspection to a part of capitalism.

CAH's black Friday stunts have consistently shown that people will spend money on stupid shit they don't need. Maybe there's a deeper lesson in there on the nature of people?

<comment><USER105> Looks more like a critique to government spending money on unproductive shit as a measure to "improve the economy". The difference is that you are forced to finance that through taxation, whereas the hole digging is voluntary.

<comment><USER48> I don't know how people are making connections to _government_ of all things. Because there are excavators there?

Anyway, judging by the history of CAH Black Friday stunts, I'd say it's definitely a critique of _consumerism_ \- of people spending money to buy stupid shit. The difference between CAH and all other Black Friday sales is that CAH tells you up-front you're buying stupid shit (at one occasion, they literally sold _bull shit_ ).

<comment><USER106> I don't personally think it's a commentary on government, but it's a reasonable conclusion. It was John Maynard Keynes who famously said (talking about government stimulus) that the government should "pay people to dig holes and fill them in again". As a result, a hole is the classic example of a useless government make work project.

<comment><USER50> This isn't paid for by the government in any way, so no, that's not a reasonable conclusion.

<comment><USER106> You misinterpreted me. I was saying that digging a hole is the classic _useless_ project.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER107> Waste of good topsoil.

<comment><USER108> How do you know it will go to waste?

</comment></comment><comment><USER109> How is this even legal? Do they own the piece of land?

<comment><USER27> Are you really positing that most holes that have been dug are illegal holes?

<comment><USER110> I would guess most people live in populated areas where you can't just dig a hole without a permission from a municipal board of construction or some such governing body.

<comment><USER31> ... you can watch the live feed. They're not digging up someone's backyard. Just because I happen to live in a city doesn't mean that I have no imagination for what things are like outside cities.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER111> One estimate I heard on the required size of a donation able to save one life was around $4k. So yeah right now the collective have given enough money to save 20 lives into digging a massive hole in the ground.

<comment><USER112> Add in their Starbucks spending. Then their movie=going. How about money spent on hair products? Lots more egregious waste, than one hilarious stunt. In fact, this stunt got folks talking about it.

<comment><USER111> Those cases are not the same. Here you have individuals spending money because they find the idea of their money being wasted in such a fashion entertaining. It's waste for the sake of waste. This is exactly why this is the perfect stunt for CAH.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER113> I cannot find the information which charities will receive the money. Should this not be mentioned?

EDIT: It's OK. I was naive. I had thought it was a joke AND had a good cause.

<comment><USER114> From their FAQ

>Why aren't you giving all this money to charity?

>Why aren't YOU giving all this money to charity? It's your money.

<comment><USER113> I am confused. So when you donate you choose the charity yourself and transfer it directly? Is that what it means?

<comment><USER63> No, the money is paying for the cost of operating excavators. This is not a charity, the CAH team is not going out with shovels, the men driving the excavators are not volunteers. You're paying them to dig a hole. When CAH runs out of money for hourly expenses of hole-digging, the digging stops. That's it.

You pay for N seconds of digging. That's the whole thing.

<comment><USER113> Thanks. I was too naive.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER115> I am disappointed that human beings can be so bored as to find money and time to do that useless nature massacre.

<comment><USER116> They have a FAQ for that:

 _" Is the hole bad for the environment? No, this was just a bunch of empty land. Now there's a hole there. That's life."_

Edit: Lol, I'm not endorsing their answer. Just pointing it out.

<comment><USER115> Burning gasoline for useless digging actually is bad for the environment. And it might not be amazonian rain forest that we're talking about, but an "empty land" is better left untouched than slaughtered like this.

<comment><USER117> I can guarantee there isn't any gasoline being burned there.

Edit: Not sure why I'm getting downvoted, those three vehicles are burning diesel...

<comment><USER115> Haha good point :-)</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


So you're foolish enough to make satire for the App Store - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@everydayarcade/so-youre-foolish-enough-to-make-satire-for-the-app-store-9e5303acd47b#.b8o4qstlo <comment><USER2> I've heard apple developer accounts have been free for a while (previously $99/year)?

Seriously, why don't people do this:

\- Put the unsigned binaries somewhere on the web

\- Have the user get a developer account

\- Make a little (macOS, Windows) app that takes the binaries, signs them with the user's developer key, and pushes them to their phone - pretending to the phone that the user is "developing" this app.

Wouldn't that work? Or do apps in-development with Xcode (but not yet in the store) only work tethered or something?

It would be a bit of a hassle, but I'd say to the user it's probably less work than rooting an Android phone, which plenty of users do. And you could run all the stuff (emulators, edgy content) that Apple forbids.

It's probably against some TOS (but it would be hard to define how you're exactly violating it - I can develop an app, and give you the Xcode project and let you help me develop it). But the allure of the forbidden might make this even more interesting.

<comment><USER3> Hacker answer: Yes, you can do this right now, as of Xcode 7 Apple allows you to build test apps and upload to your devices for free:

[http://9to5mac.com/2015/06/10/xcode-7-allows-anyone-to- downl...](http://9to5mac.com/2015/06/10/xcode-7-allows-anyone-to-download- build-and-sideload-ios-apps-for-free/)

Human answer: Expecting everyday users to download & install a 3GB application, learn how a compiler works, join a developer program, learn how code-signing works, even learn how to plug their phone into a computer when they probably used iCloud instead of iTunes Sync... it's just not practical. It's a usability & support nightmare with a minuscule audience. It's easier just to develop for Android. (And if Google rejects your app, the sideloading story for Android is within the reach of normal users.)

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Ultimately we get the over-sanitised walled gardens we deserve. As with overly prudish advertisers pulling ads from comedy TV programmes, though, the power of (and need for!) voting with your feet can be quite hard to discern for most consumers.

</comment><comment><USER5> Ignoring the political aspect I find it hard to understand why so many people want to make native applications when usually a website will do it (and often better). The PhoneGap/Cordova approach is awesome as well because you can get App Store visibility while still making a single application for all platforms.

I found this story a striking anecdote of the advantages.

<comment><USER6> It depends on what your definition of better is, personally I find native apps much better on iOS.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> In other news, water is wet.

Seriously, what is the news here? Anyone remotely paying attention would know that these apps would not fly on the iOS App Store, satire or not. If you don't like that, then you shouldn't develop for iOS.

Personally, I don't use iOS for this very reason.

</comment><comment><USER8> The truly annoying thing about the App Store isn't just the censorship, it is how inconsistently it is applied. App X gets in and App Y doesn't for reasons that would equally apply to X.

</comment><comment><USER9> Pff, I didn't even _want_ those grapes.</comment>


ChosunTruck – Euro Truck Simulator 2 autonomous driving solution - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/bethesirius/ChosunTruck <comment><USER2> If you want to start learning programming autonomous driving, you might start with Desert Bus*

*) [http://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/desert-bus-the-very-w...](http://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/desert-bus-the-very-worst-video-game-ever-created)

</comment><comment><USER3> Thank you for your interest guys! We went from about 20 stars to 200+ stars, landing us on the 'trending' section of github! We could vastly improve the program by hooking into the game's memory (Such as the totally sick mapping done in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YYyGGgoWfs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YYyGGgoWfs)). But this project really just explores computer vision and ML (Kinda, tensorflow is still being worked on).

</comment><comment><USER4> A mostly off topic side note.

It's amazing to see a game with the roads of half continent. I've been playing driving games for so many years that I become fed up with all the grinding (licenses, career path, races blocked by other races, etc) so I'm not buying those games any more. I want all the cars, all the roads, no traffic, no police, only driving. I could pay an extra for that. I wish there is something like Euro Truck with only roads, some fast car and curated lists of interesting road to drive on.

And kudos to the authors of ChosunTruck, obviously.

<comment><USER5> > I want all the cars, all the roads, no traffic, no police, only driving.

Then you don't want to play ETS2.

> It's amazing to see a game with the roads of half continent

As someone else noted, the road network is only an approximation of the highways. Each city is essentially the same layout with slightly different buildings to make it look like the namesake city (outside the drivable world, basically a 3D skybox).

The AI vehicles are quite stupid. I've had them suddenly brake in front of me, or merge into the trailer from behind. Oh, and you get penalised for this (ticket & damage repair costs).

Apart from the PS of trucks, there's virtually no difference between them. Want a basic Volvo? It'll haul trailers. Want the top of the line Volvo Globetrotter with sleeping cabin? It'll haul trailers. Oh, and you still need to stop at the designated rest areas to sleep, even though you have a bloody sleeping compartment in the Globetrotter!

You have to follow all the laws, all the time. Speeding? That's a ticket. Running a red light? Ticket. Bumping another car? Ticket!

I wish they would include an arcade or "god mode" so you could actually have fun.

/rant

Can anyone comment on how this is actually obtaining the video output from ETS2?

Is there some way you can feed the output of an OpenGL application into this? Or is it just capturing the desktop area where ETS2 is running?

<comment><USER6> What I'm missing is road construction. You can't go 100 km pretty much anywhere without encountering something out of the ordinary - narrower lanes, blocked lanes, lanes running on the opposite side. Also the ramps look more or less the same no exit within exit or those weird X-shaped exits - where an off-ramp is an on-ramp at the same time.

<comment><USER7> That would make a pretty cool mod, randomised roadworks.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Interesting choice of a name. "Chosun" is not widely used in contemporary South Korea unless you're in a self-deprecating mood ("Hell Chosun") or referring to the Kim dynasty up north. You guys planning to drive to Pyongyang one day in an autonomous truck? :)

Anyway, cool project! It's really nice to see what used to be very expensive proprietary technologies become available for anyone with an Ubuntu box to play and experiment with.

<comment><USER9> > "Chosun" is not widely used in contemporary South Korea unless you're in a > self-deprecating mood ("Hell Chosun") or referring to the Kim dynasty up > north.

I rather see it as a tongue-in-cheek name, it doesn't necessarily convey a self-deprecating mood (though it somehow implies the comparison itself).

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> Video: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6H2eGEvzvw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6H2eGEvzvw)

<comment><USER11> As a german I can only think "Gah, why isn't it driving on the right lane?"

<comment><USER3> Its to avoid exits :)

<comment><USER12> Yeah, for whatever reason the right lane very, very frequently turns into an exit with almost no warning.

This is just how the maps are designed. It's only on the rare three lane stretches that you're able to bump over to the middle lane confidently.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> There was a GTA5 one earlier this month wasn't there?

These devs should really start/join a DARPA challenge team; try out their ideas on real courses.

<comment><USER14> I am running [http://selfracingcars.com/events](http://selfracingcars.com/events) in a few months... Udacity has arranged for some folks to run code on their vehicles as well.

<comment><USER15> [http://selfracingcars.com/event/](http://selfracingcars.com/event/)

That looks awesome, nice!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Also, if you haven't played ETS2, it's actually quite fantastic.

</comment><comment><USER17> I appreciate this is a big ask but I find this incredibly interesting and would love to know how it works, would someone mind walking me through some of the main functions please? Which files on GitHub are actually doing the work to keep the truck within the correct lines? Does this learn as it goes or have they somehow trained it before hand?

<comment><USER18> I'm doing my part![1]

It's not trained; it's entirely programmed.

Looking at /windows/src/main.cpp:

1\. Grab the game window with `FindWindow("prism3d", NULL)`.

2\. Get an image of said game window with `hwnd2mat` (found in windows/src/hwnd2mat.cpp). This part is complicated, as it deals with the Windows API.

2\. Apply Median Blur to the image, as shown with this transformation[2].

3\. After creating the 4-point correspondence between the input image (`image`) and the output overlaid image, (`outputImg`), create an IPM object that will perform the Inverse Perspective Mapping. This is a function that turns a flat-angle shot into an overhead shot [3].

4\. Resize the `outputImg` to 320x240 for the smaller window.

5\. Convert `outputImg` to grayscale, storing the result in `gray`[4].

6\. Perform the `cv::blur`[5] operation on `gray`, storing the result in `blur`. This reduces noise in the image; there are artifacts gotten from the Inverse Perspective Mapping.

7\. Perform the `cv::Sobel`[6] operation on `gray`, storing the result in `sobel`. This gets all of the outlines, including (surprise!) the lines on the road.

8\. Perform the `cv::threshold`[7] operation on `sobel`, storing the result in `contours`.

Result at this point: A flat perspective of the road has been turned into an overhead perspective, converted to grayscale, blurred, turned into an outline, and then thresholded to solely have the lines on the road. Note that there's an option to perform Canny[8] as well, which is another alternative.

9\. Create a `LineFinder` object `ld` (found in /windows/src/linefinder.cpp).

10\. Perform `ld.findLines` on `contours`. This performs the `cv::HoughLinesP` operation[9], returning a vector of lines (`vec4i` is a vector of 4 integers that stores x_1, y_1, x_2, y_2). It'll use these to draw the detected lines for informational purposes.

\---

Okay, now we have a black-and-white image of road-line contours, stored in `contours`. Unfortunately, keyboard and mouse input doesn't work in Windows, so we have to go over to linux/src/main2.cc. Note that the line-finding part is the same thing but requires some Linux-specific stuff to get the original image of the game.

Starting from Line 198:

11\. Define the center of the image to be `bottom_center` at column 160.

Our x-value for the pixel values is going to be `j`. Our y-value is going to be `i`.

12\. Create a for loop that iterates through all values from y = 240 to y = 30. Inside this is effectively two loops - one that acts on the x-values from 160 to 10, and one that acts on the x-values from 160 to 310. This loop looks at the pixel in the (j, i) spot in `contours` and sees if it detects a line there. If it does, and it hasn't found a line yet, it sets the `center_to_right` and `center_to_left` values, respectively. This finds the x-values of the left and right lines. I think you know where we're going from here...

13\. Create a `centerline`, which is going to be the average of the two.

14\. For informational purposes, gather the average `centerline` values and the average `center_to_left` and `center_to_right` values.

15\. Move the mouse according to how far away `centerline` is from the center of the image. I don't know how to move in ETS, so I'm going to take their word for it that their gnarly-looking trig function is on-point.

[1] [https://i.imgur.com/cMfkFGP.gif](https://i.imgur.com/cMfkFGP.gif)

[2] [http://docs.opencv.org/3.1.0/median.jpg](http://docs.opencv.org/3.1.0/median.jpg)

[3] [https://marcosnietoblog.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/sample.p...](https://marcosnietoblog.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/sample.png)

[4] [http://docs.opencv.org/2.4/_images/Load_Save_Image_Result_1....](http://docs.opencv.org/2.4/_images/Load_Save_Image_Result_1.jpg)

[5] [http://docs.opencv.org/3.1.0/blur.jpg](http://docs.opencv.org/3.1.0/blur.jpg)

[6] [http://www.mon-club- elec.fr/mes_images/javacvpro/javacvpro_e...](http://www.mon-club- elec.fr/mes_images/javacvpro/javacvpro_exemple_sobel.png)

[7] [http://docs.opencv.org/2.4/_images/Threshold_Tutorial_Theory...](http://docs.opencv.org/2.4/_images/Threshold_Tutorial_Theory_Example.jpg)

[8] [https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ybDW9YBG05s/UsvD3HRj7JI/AAAAAAAAB...](https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ybDW9YBG05s/UsvD3HRj7JI/AAAAAAAABWI/5bUbVWpXx-U/s1600/canny.JPG)

[9] [http://answers.opencv.org/upfiles/13661345957308836.jpg](http://answers.opencv.org/upfiles/13661345957308836.jpg)

<comment><USER19> This sounds real similar to Project 4 of Term 1 in the Udacity Nanodegree (Advanced Lane Finding) - basically using OpenCV on a video to find the lane markings and highlight the road.

The only real difference is some of the order (in the project, you first have to fix the camera distortion, then do the image thresholding, then warping the image from "perspective view" to "overhead view") and the lane finding (where you do a "windowing" method to find the lines after doing a histogram search to find the start of the actual lane-lines; after that, you essentially do a polynomial fit of the found pixels, which you then use to render the road shading, then re-warp that from flat back to perspective and overlay it on top of the road image).

Can you tell I just recently completed all these steps...

<comment><USER20> End of term is fast approaching!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> wow man this is really amazing!!!!</comment>


How to steal corporate secrets in 20 minutes: Ask  - <AUTHOR> http://www.networkworld.com/news/2010/073110-how-to-steal-corporate-secrets.html

<comment><USER2> My experience just this afternoon: An unknown person approached me in the hall of my office building and asked if I had a screwdriver. He said he'd just moved in down the hall and had accidentally locked his keys and phone in when he went to the rest room. He wanted to remove the cover on the mail slot so he could reach in and open the door.

Being aware of social engineering hacks and having just read this article I was slightly cautious as I'd never seen him around. I knew the stakes were pretty low but I quickly came up with what I thought was a good enough way to verify his story. Standing in front of the door, I asked for and dialed his cellphone number. It rang inside and I handed him the screwdriver.

Once inside, he was able to positively confirm he should be there. Of course this is a pretty silly example, but also illustrates that it's often not that hard to counter social attacks.

<comment><USER3> it's amazing how many locked doors/gates/entrances can be defeated by simple tools. who needs a key when a screwdriver or a wrench will do just fine? the most common culprit is hinges on the outside.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> The corporate secrets are things anybody who's ever walked into the building could determine. If your security is dependent on no one knowing what Web browser you use or your SSID, the best course of action is to stock up on Aspirin.

<comment><USER5> "The corporate secrets are things anybody who's ever walked into the building could determine."

If you work in a security conscious business then no unaccompanied persons have access to computers; you can't walk in and sit at the desk and determine what computer platforms are being used, say, in the finance section.

Also they're getting people to visit a particular site of their choosing - allowing the "right" combination of software to be dropped some malware (eg open the pdf coupon and print it).

Where do you work that someone can walk in and install software on your computers without being challenged? ("things anybody who's ever walked into the building could [do]").

<comment><USER6> Getting into the building is a simple matter of putting on a business suit and tailgating after an employee. Every company who has ever had a security meeting has a rule against tailgating... and it is observed precisely nowhere.

After you're in, just look like you're supposed to be there. "Excuse me, I'm here to have a meeting with Tim and I'm in a bit of a rush. I really hate to ask this but I left my presentation at home and I don't know if the presentation laptop will have Internet: will you mind if I quick use your computer to go to Gmail and download it to my USB key?"

Relatedly, a white man in a business suit could probably get about as far as the door of the Japanese equivalent of the Oval Office before getting questioned for the first time. I am not confident that he would be stopped.

<comment><USER5> >Getting into the building is a simple matter of putting on a business suit and tailgating after an employee.

Well I've only worked in one "corporate" environment, UK gov. There was no chance to get in without a pass, despite seeing the same security guy every day for 3 years one would still get stopped. All passes were checked, even coming back from the canteen. Temporary passes required a manager to walk to the entrance and sign you in on a day pass. Public access areas were separate areas without connection to the IT network, leaving your computer unlocked when you're away from your desk was not allowed - like I said this was the lowest level security.

I still think that getting computer info via social engineering would be quite easy over the phone (at least when I was there). But we did get new SIP style phones just before I left and I think caller display would rule out a lot of chances for attacks.

There was a 1st level clearance area with a daily-code door, clearance checks for everyone (including the tea-trolley pusher) security cameras in and out and a receptionist/security person on duty opposite the door.

What you're describing appears to be that places without security protocols don't have security.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> People are your #1 security hole. That's been true since... forever? People _want_ to help, especially when the person they're trying to help seems stressed. It takes quite a bit of work to teach people that there should be limits to this in a corporate environment.

I love the contest setup, though. That adds a fun wrinkle to social hacking.

</comment><comment><USER8> What version of web browser? Damn, some day some black hat will invent the user-agent header and we'll all be toast.

</comment><comment><USER9> Sure, that's exactly what Mitnick, for one, has emphasized. Social hacking is often way more efficient and effective than technological hacking.

</comment><comment><USER10> If you like this sort of thing, Johnny Long wrote an interesting book called No Tech Hacking: A Guide to Social Engineering, Dumpster Diving, and Shoulder Surfing ([http://www.amazon.com/No-Tech-Hacking-Engineering- Dumpster/d...](http://www.amazon.com/No-Tech-Hacking-Engineering- Dumpster/dp/1597492159)).

</comment><comment><USER11> The information that they are obtaining here isn't sensitive at all, in my opinion.

Yes, I'll gladly tell people what browser I use at work, what my wireless network name is, and so on. This is nothing critical to security. I won't discuss _actual_ secrets, but these aren't them.

<comment><USER12> If this were a sales conversation you'd be on the 'yes' ladder already. The real issue is that you don't have to tell them - and shouldn't tell them - anything. What information is useful to an attacker is something you don't know, but they do.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> Different site, same article from hours ago:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1563769>

</comment><comment><USER14> The winner of the contest claims he had 20 hours of prep time to complete this task so efficiently.

In other words... the title is very misleading.

</comment><comment><USER15> Aw man. Is there video of it??</comment>


Scrollable.js - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/katsuyan/scrollable

<comment><USER2> I don't know why some submissions get traction and some don't, this one should have</comment>


Does this Portfolio stand out? - <AUTHOR> https://codehakase.github.io <comment><AUTHOR> I would like to get your reviews please :)</comment>


Ask HN: Would you rather type with your iPhone or type with your iPad? - <AUTHOR>

<comment><USER2> Both have the same inconveniences, but the iPad keys are bigger so it will always be better.

I find the iOS' problems with text editing don't really have much to do with its keyboard though. For instance, the "press, hold, move awkward magnifying bubble to relocate cursor" sequence is utterly boneheaded and they need something better; I don't mind occasionally typing the wrong key as long as I can _quickly_ move the insertion point to make a correction and _I can't_.

</comment><comment><USER3> I don't have an iPhone but I would choose that assuming the typing is comparable to other touch screen phones. I find typing on an iPad to be quite difficult due to it's size. The split keyboard helps, and it's bearable in portrait mode, but it's always hard to hold the device while trying to thumb type.

</comment><comment><USER4> Until the iOS 5 update, I would have said the iPhone.

But now, with the split keyboard feature on the iPad it's very easy to type well on the iPad (in either orientation).

</comment><comment><USER5> If I have to do significant typing, I either wait or I use a Bluetooth keyboard.

</comment><comment><USER6> iPhone

Side note: This should be a poll.

<comment><AUTHOR> agreed - is there a way to create a poll on HN?

<comment><USER6> Sorry for the delayed response. Was busy and just saw this now.

Here: <http://news.ycombinator.com/newpoll>

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> iPad, by far.

</comment><comment><USER8> ipad sitting, iphone standing.</comment>


Garbage collectors open a library with abandoned books - <AUTHOR> http://edition.cnn.com/2018/01/15/europe/garbage-collectors-open-library-with-abandoned-books/index.html <comment><USER2> A surprising number of people don't seem to understand how public libraries do collection management. Do you see new books when you go to the library? Does the library have infinite shelf space? They throw out books at roughly the same rate they acquire new ones. If books don't circulate for a long period (I.e. no one has looked at it in five years), that book is going in the dumpster. It had basically negative value. Most books donated to libraries are worthless, but the donors can't bring themselves to throw them out, so they have the library do it for them.

"Little free libraries" have similar problems where they just fill up with books no one wants unless their collections get actively culled.

This is a fun story, but only in the same way as articles talking about homeless people rigging their cardboard shanties with solar powered LEDs or something. These people would be much better served by a public library.

<comment><USER3> Sometimes I think that policy abdicates the trust we have in libraries. I used to check out a little-used book, published in 1881, which was a history of our local town going back to its founding. With source material from the people who slept on cloaks under a tree before the first sod was turned.

One day I looked for it, and it was gone. Probably victim to one of those book purges. And I was upset. Not that the book was valuable, and probably went for $1 at a jumble sale. But because it was irreplaceable.

If our own library will not preserve books about our own local history, then who will? How can this source material ever, ever be reconstituted again? How can anybody in charge have thought this was a good idea?

<comment><USER4> Each time someone has a "this one book" story I wonder if it wouldn't make sense for libraries to allow people to put a purge alert on books. If it gets removed, you get X days to come fetch it for a small fee.

That of course does not help if the book got transferred somewhere else/stolen/lost/destroyed instead of being intentionally purged, so people nevertheless should create and keep copies. With an 1800s book, even publishing the copy would be legal!

<comment><USER5> Given that a modern library knows everything you ever checked out, it would be easy to do this automatically. As part of your regular checkout, the terminal can alert you "hey, this book you checked out last year is being withdrawn— if you're interested in purchasing it for $1, see the circulation desk."

<comment><USER6> This is actually not true. Library circulation systems actively work to purge themselves of historical transactions, at least, the few I've worked with. If anything they keep the "last patron" for a given item for some time, in case damage is reported, but beyond that there is no historical record, to eliminate the possibility of searching that data via warrant or otherwise.

<comment><USER5> Oh interesting. That actually makes a ton of sense; the institution of libraries have been around for long enough to have the historical context around that. Maybe in a few hundred years, tech companies will be so wise.

<comment><USER7> More likely, the libraries will fall victim to the modern police-state attitude.

<comment><USER8> There was a Japanese novel called Library War that later got turned into a movie, TV series, and so on. The story took place in a fascinating if somewhat implausible near future where certain books were banned from the public, but libraries were exempted from the ban and could actually defend their rights under the exemption by any means necessary. This occasionally led to armed confrontations over the possession of these banned books.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I was completely puzzled by this headline for a few seconds. I wondered why CNN would run a technical article about open libraries for GC. And what the heck do "abandoned books" have to do with anything. Context is everything.

<comment><USER10> I had the exact same feeling. I initially imagined a guy finding new clues to build an open source GC library from a pile of old Java reference books.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> This is really clever. I periodically prune my library to make room for more stuff, and always feel a bit guilty about throwing away perfectly good books. I tried selling them, but either no one is interested or the offers are so low they hover in the no-man's-land between insult and nuisance.

I guess the solemn judgement of the market is that used paperbacks are mostly worthless.

<comment><USER12> Donate them, you can drop them off at your local library or even some bookstores.

<comment><USER13> Even to Goodwill or other places. I don't care for how Goodwill deals with their profits but I sometimes find good books there for really cheap.

<comment><USER14> Several charity shops locally now have signs in the window saying they no longer accept books.

They were receiving so many unsellable pulp novels that they were having to pay recyclers to take them away.

Which is a real shame because amongst the mass-market paperbacks I occasionally found gems ( e.g. geological atlas of French wine regions )

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> The secondhand life of books is an ongoing fascination of mine. I liked an NPR piece about where books go after they are donated[0]. Mostly to giant warehouses trying to flip them on Amazon for a few cents at scale...or something more exotic, like "books-by-the-foot" sellers.

EDIT: also a little about Amazon's "penny books" [1].

[0] [https://www.wnyc.org/story/business-books- foot-2/](https://www.wnyc.org/story/business-books-foot-2/) [1] [https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/25/magazine/a-penny-for- your...](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/25/magazine/a-penny-for-your- books.html)

</comment><comment><USER16> If you are ever passing through Cooke City Montana, stop by the garbage dump. They have a building with all kinds of books, artwork, etc. that they have salvaged from the garbage.

</comment><comment><USER17> That brick factory building is beautiful, if you can ignore the roof of what looks like sheet metal that was probably a more modern addition. I have no idea how old it may be- 18th century, maybe? 17th? The arched entrances in the front look designed to allow horse carts inside...

</comment><comment><USER18> An aside: the title is a great example of context sensitivity. On first glance, I interpreted the title as some serious bug in garbage collection algorithms/Systems (as in, they open some library that was an abandonware).

</comment><comment><USER19> They should sort the shelves in LRU and then re-stock accordingly...

<comment><USER20> They basically do this, but they also take into account things like the book's condition and whether the content is relevant and valuable.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weeding_(library)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weeding_\(library\))

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> Reference counting gc?

</comment><comment><USER22> Clickbait, thought it was about a garbage collector open source library!

<comment><USER23> Feels like a garden path sentence [1] targeted at developers

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden_path_sentence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden_path_sentence)

<comment><USER24> That's only because the context has been shifted from the more general news of CNN to the tech and developer oriented news of HN. Within the original context of CNN _no one_ would think it's about programming languages. They don't post stories like that. The CNN headline writer clearly wasn't trying to trick anyone.

Kudos to wowsig if it was submitted as a joke though. That'd be quite clever.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> Those CNN and BBC news are too often just a long wall of uninteresting text, therefor I banned them just now from my RSS reader.</comment>


The Forest, the Trees, and the Bag Fees  - <AUTHOR> http://joe.biztravelife.com/09/042309.html

<comment><USER2> I could be wrong, but from looking at the authors data, and the writing, it seems as if the author is "massage" his interpretation of the data to fit his hypothesis (which could very well be valid). The author suggests "You can draw a straight line: The faster they added fees, the more their revenue fell." While it may be true for the worst performing carriers, this trend doesn't hold with the "least bad carriers" (Alaska fell faster than AirTran but added fees later, Southwest fell faster than JetBlue, but doesn't have fees). While I do see the point the author is trying to make, and it may very well be valid, I'm not prepared to reach the conclusion "The faster airlines add fees for basic services like checked bags, the faster their total revenue declines.", the data he provided just doesn't show that. edit:typos</comment>


California's population growth is slowing dramatically, study finds - <AUTHOR> http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/04/california-population-growth.html

<comment><USER2> Gee - I wonder why. The tax and regulation burden is inflating faster than anyone can keep up with. The idiots in Sacramento show no signs of stopping either.</comment>


Jim Carrey urges people to delete their Facebook accounts and dump the stock - <AUTHOR> https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/06/comedian-jim-carrey-delete-your-facebook-account-and-dump-the-stock.html <comment><USER2> I'm not disagreeing with the idea but why does anyone care what Jim Carrey has to say about Facebook? He's just an actor which isn't a profession that knows anything about the topic. Keep in mind that he's also an anti-vaxer so he's not exactly the most rational person.

<comment><USER3> He has clout. A fanbase, and money. Thus his words are more impactful then a regular Joe popping off.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I urge Jim Carrey and every other celebrity to discuss this at length with their personal circle of friends.

But otherwise shut up about everything political. I'm sick and tired of hearing celebrity political opinions.

</comment><comment><USER5> Heh. Over profiting from Russian interference. Which Twitter _also_ did (with knowledge and ignoring warnings), but Carrey posted about it from his Twitter account, without mentioning Twitter or plans to leave that platform.

So, either the reason is false, or it's poorly informed.

</comment><comment><USER6> What stops Russia from buying Facebook stocks to prevent activist investors from sending a message?

<comment><USER7> Facebook's market cap is about 10 times the defense budget of Russia that's what's stopping them.

Asymmetric information warfare is cost effective because it's cheap spending over half a trillion dollars isn't something they can afford.</comment></comment>


Forgotten audio formats: The Highway Hi-Fi - <AUTHOR> http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2016/03/highway-hi-fi-car-vinyl-player/ <comment><USER2> Techmoan has been doing a great series of videos on obsolete formats. Here's the Playtape: [http://www.techmoan.com/blog/2016/1/13/heres-something- old-t...](http://www.techmoan.com/blog/2016/1/13/heres-something-old-the- playtape.html) and the CED video disk: [http://www.techmoan.com/blog/2016/3/13/retro-tech-the-rca- ce...](http://www.techmoan.com/blog/2016/3/13/retro-tech-the-rca-ced- videodisc.html) (video on a vinyl disk read using a stylus, what could possibly go wrong!)

<comment><USER3> The coolest thing he's covered, I think, that I'd never heard of before is the tefifon: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBNTAmLRmUg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBNTAmLRmUg)

It's basically a continuous loop of tape (similar to an 8-track) but with groves recording music (like a vinyl record). It didn't see much popularity outside of Germany and then was essentially obsoleted by magnetic tape. Such a fascinating technology though. In a parallel Universe it probably would have been vastly more popular.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> _" Nor was there any skimping on the software technicalities, for the Highway Hi-Fi music discs were heavy, quality pressings of 135-gram vinyl with ultra- fine grooves—over 216 grooves per centimetre."_

135g Vinyl isn't that high quality when market releases between 120 and 140g especially compared to the high-end 180g Grundman [0] on my desk.... what I didn't know was this was the birth of the 33rpm LP that I bought and listened too as a kid.

 _" But the players had made a mark: microgroove records were an indirect spin-off, serving as slabs of vinyl that were capable of holding one hour of music. These 60-minute discs were being pressed and sold in their millions by the mid-'70s. The neatly titled Gold Hour Records was one of the biggest labels to benefit from that format's success."_

The 33rpm 'microgroove' record is what we now know as the LP or Long Play record.

[0] [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSwejSlZFFE](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSwejSlZFFE)

</comment><comment><USER5> they leave out that Motorola was a spin of from RCA and Ericsson (? maybe Phillips?) to create that car-vitriola monstrosity

<comment><USER6> Motorola had nothing to do with this project.

Motorola was also founded in the late 1920s in Chicago. There is no connection to RCA and/or Ericsson.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> I wonder what would happen to record companies if DAT existed in the 1960s or 1970s (before they really consolidated).

<comment><USER8> DAT couldn't have existed because the technology wasn't there. Audio DACs were lab-grade items that cost four or five figures. The smaller digital tape packs in the 1970s had a capacity of maybe 256Kb per reel.

And it wouldn't have made any difference, because in-car audio worked just fine with 8-track carts, which were available from the mid-1960s. Compact cassettes took over about a decade later.

<comment><USER7> I know, I am talking about the issue of how the music industry tried to kill it for example.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Wow, they got George Harrison and Muhammad Ali for their PR? That must have cost a fortune.

<comment><USER10> If you look closely at the pictures, you can see that Ali and Harrison are actually holding 45 rpm records (large center hole) and not 16 2/3 rpm records (small center hole, like a 33 1/3 rpm record).

The Highway Hi-Fi was discontinued in 1957 -- Harrison joined the Quarrymen in 1958 at the earliest and Ali didn't turn professional until 1960.

In addition, they aren't even in Chryslers in the pictures: Ali is in a '59 Cadillac and Harrison is in a '64 Jaguar.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: What's your feature testing workflow? - <AUTHOR> At my company our testing workflow for web projects looks like this:
1. A developer creates a PR on Github(which triggers a build on CI and runs automated tests)
2. A developer deploys a branch with a feature to one of the staging environments
3. A QA engineer and a Product Owner go to the said staging server and do their review
4. Once PR has been reviewed and passed QA/PO review it's merged to master and ready to release
My pain point with this is actually a management of staging servers. We always have to ask each other "Hey, is staging server X free now? Can I take staging server Y?". There's a fixed number of them, and we don't have a system in place to keep track of what's currently in use. How does it look like for you? <comment><USER2> We just stage everything in a single environment. It causes problems and clashes only on rare occasions.</comment>


Why Companies That Manage for the Long Term Perform Far Better - <AUTHOR> http://fortune.com/2018/05/21/companies-long-term-performance-fortune-500/ <comment><USER2> Why on earth would this be surprising?</comment>


Texas Companies Tie Worker Shortages to Immigration Fears - <AUTHOR> https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2017/06/17/us/ap-us-immigration-crackdown-losing-workers.html <comment><USER2> When farm workers make a wage that can support a family of five without any government benefits, including paying health care premiums without subsidies, then we can start talking about a labor shortage.

<comment><USER3> Arguments like yours seem divorced from the reality of what a farmer can sell his produce for in the US. What your argument is really saying is that the price of produce should greatly, greatly increase in the US. That may be a fine argument, but if so you should explain how that is possible (i.e. it would require very high import tariffs), instead of arguing basically that farmers should pay much higher wages from their orchards of money trees.

<comment><USER2> Employee wages are a tiny fraction of the cost of produce. To get a head of lettuce to your supermarket, the main cost factors are land, irrigation, fertilizer, farm equipment, seeds, pesticides, transportation, spoilage, marketing, storage, compliance, retail markup, etc etc. Why is it that market prices are fine for all of those factors but not for labor?

<comment><USER3> > Why is it that market prices are fine for all of those factors but not for > labor?

Huh, I don't understand that? It's clear that the problem _is_ that the market price for farm labor is extremely low.

<comment><USER2> And what's even more curious is that the farmers are complaining that there's a shortage of workers. How can there be a shortage when the market price is extremely low, as you put it? There is no shortage. The farmers will always complain about "crops rotting in the fields," I made a Twitter account a while ago to gently mock their endless whining.

twitter.com/bigagmoneybucks

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> The article is very light on details.

That said, It'll be interesting to see if this lasts and if it does whether it results in increased wages in the affected sectors or not. This presents an opportunity to understand how this affects the economy one way or the other.

<comment><USER5> We already have a number of examples in the US to choose. Economic impact is begative and it does not result in increased wages. The Trump crackdown is going to devastate US farming.

[https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2...](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2012/05/17/the- law-of-unintended-consequences-georgias-immigration-law-backfires/amp/)

<comment><USER6> _The Trump crackdown is going to devastate US farming._

Isn't this kinda on the farmers who built businesses that are only viable with indentured/exploited labour?

I mean I am not saying I agree with Trump on this but let's call a spade a spade shall we? Business that pay a market clearing price for workers do not suffer from staff shortages.

<comment><USER7> What did plantation owners do when slavery was abolished?

<comment><USER8> I think some folks just went bankrupt and moved away. Larger plantations were often spit up and sold off, and a few took up a form of sharecropping with former slaves.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> This wasn't what I expected (and what it actually was wasn't that insightful). When I worked in Texas I had many colleagues from Mexico (many more than I encounter here in the Bay Area, where the number is in the single digits). Most had PhDs from major US or Mexican universities.

There were dire predictions of educated non-Americans being unwilling to take US jobs. Though the absence of something is hard to document, is there any evidence this is actually happening? I know tourist numbers are dropping.</comment>