Ask HN: How do you keep a good posture when you spend most of your type sitting? - <AUTHOR> <comment><USER3> I'm an ergonomics geek. I had bad sitting posture for years, then struggled with severe shoulder and back pain for years after that. It got so bad that I could not sit and type for more than 15 minutes without collapsing at my desk. It became a career threatening emergency for me. I sought the support of specialists, doctors, orthopedists, physical therapists, physical trainers, etc. I did posture exercises, stretches, dry needling, replaced most of my office equipment, and so on. Now I can (finally!) work at a computer comfortably for 8 hours a day.

The #1 thing that helped me was sitting forward, on the edge of the chair, with legs tucked in, and removing the arm rests so my arms hang down naturally. A lot of people say it's unnatural, therefore, unhealthy, for humans to _sit_ for 8 hours a day, but that's not entirely true. Humans have been riding horses and camels since practically the dawn of history, sometimes for >8 hours a day, weeks at a time, however these animals do not have arm rests or back rests.

The #2 thing was getting ergonomic equipment. Most office equipment is not designed for ergonomics, but economics. For a keyboard, I highly recommend the Kinesis Advantage2. The scooped design conforms naturally to the curves of the human hand. Though you have to relearn typing to an extent, it's totally worth it. You will also need an adjustable height external monitor. If you don't want to pay, don't be shy to ask your employer. It's an investment that pays off big in your efficiency.

The #3 thing was doing wall slides. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOtlRQxwt3g](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOtlRQxwt3g) This doesn't help with the pain, but it is the only exercise I've ever tried that corrects kyphotic posture. Immediately after I started doing them, friends and family were asking me if I've gotten taller. It activates muscles in the upper back that I didn't even know existed.

<comment><USER4> Congrats on getting yourself better. Information helps, but you've got to apply it and not everyone does.

Regarding #1: Interesting observation about the horse and camel riding. However, I think there's more hip extension involved in both of those activities. I imagine there's also more muscle engagement in both too. Still an interesting point though. Makes me wonder if there's middle ground, regarding hip extension, while sitting. People typically talk about sitting vs standing at desks. I wonder if there's a place for chairs that sit higher off the ground to allow for more hip extension and sitting on the edge.

All speculation on my part.

<comment><USER5> We'll probably see an evolution from sitting desk to standing desk to walking desk to mechanical bull desk.

<comment><USER3> Hah! Please no.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Obviously I am just one data point, but I spent many years with back pain and seeing Physios who would tell me to sit with better posture. They would give me endless stretches and exercises which I would spend time every day doing and suggest I stand for half the time if possible.

No matter what I tried, sitting with good posture was never comfortable. It wasn't until I visited a physio who told me not to worry about it, that I could sit however was comfortable and it wouldn't hurt my back, people are built differently, that the pain started going away.

I challenge you to find someone who sits with good posture who -doesn't- have back pain. So my question is, why do you want to sit in a particular way? What does good mean to you?

<comment><USER7> I'm all about the lean back. My chair is always positioned as low and as far back as it goes. Takes pressure off your spine. Distributes weight over the entire back rest, instead of just lightly touching it.

[http://www.nbcnews.com/id/15939377/ns/health- health_care/t/e...](http://www.nbcnews.com/id/15939377/ns/health- health_care/t/ease-back-pain-dont-sit-straight/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Not strictly answering the question, but something I've been thinking about in this area recently.

In regards to ergonomics, it's right under our noses but it seems to be overlooked - cars' seats seem to have perfect ergonomics. I can sit in mine for 2 hours straight and have no desire to adjust anything at all, and getting out feel the same as before I got in, besides the unavoidable slight stiffness that'll come with any prolonged stillness like that. Compare to any other sitting arrangement, where I'll inevitably either want to adjust it over time, move in it a bit, or realize I've been sitting wrongly in it causing a minor back pain or the like. Maybe office desk/chair ergonomics need to take a cue from car interiors.

<comment><USER9> I'll strongly disagree with this one. After a day of driving I regret it.

I don't own a car so o rent a variety of different ones. The headrest always forces my neck forward. The bucket shape of the seats closes my chest and causes shoulder issues.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> Alexander Technique saved me, its a course where trainer makes you aware of your posture, especially about how you hold your head. Check if there is an instructor in your area

more generally: Have monitors high so you are looking straight ahead. Feet flat on the floor a good chair that adjusts to your body.

ie there is no way you can work on a laptop in a cafe 6+ hrs a day without getting chronic back problems.

<comment><USER11> > ie there is no way you can work on a laptop in a cafe 6+ hrs a day without > getting chronic back problems.

This is the dirty little secret of the hip modern agile coworking 24/7 hackathon startup/freelancer/diy tech lifestyle. Our sleek streamlined unibody laptops are amazing tools but they are horrible for our bodies.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> 1) This is absolutely crucial: Especially if you use a laptop, get an external keyboard and a very high riser for the screen (most risers on the market aren't nearly high enough).

If you're both typing into your laptop keyboard and trying to view its screen, you'll have no choice but to slouch or hunch.

To get the screen to the right height relative to the keyboard (for upright posture and elbows at a right angle at your side), even a short person should lift their laptop by over 18 inches (roughly the distance from waist to shoulder).

2) Get a vision exam annually and corrective lenses if appropriate so you never have to lean in to your screen.

<comment><USER13> It has been my hope for the last few decades that a laptop manufacturer notices this and offers a laptop with a screen that can be raised without being detached from the keyboard. Having a screen in so close proximity to a keyboard makes zero ergonomic sense.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> I got glasses there were focused at approximately the distance my monitor is from my face (~1 arm length), in addition to many of the other things mentioned (chair/desk adjustment, walks, etc)

I'm near sighted and the monitor starts getting blurry at just the right distance. I have glasses for nearsightedness that are focused very far out (the common case). Wearing them for constant work at arms length really tired my eyes out. So, I'd frequently work without my glasses, but hunch forward a little to make seeing things easier.

With glasses dedicated for computer work, I can read everything I need to, my body can stay in the position it should be, and my eyes don't get nearly as tired.

As a side benefit, the glasses help me focus in other areas of my life. I frequently wear them while cooking, and it helps me do one thing at time, as other stuff is blurry.

</comment><comment><USER15> I had a heck of a time at my previous workplace being comfortable; tried different sitting positions, standing part of the day, etc.

Then I came to my current workplace which had Aeron chairs. I don't even think about how I'm sitting now, I just sit how I'm comfortable. I sit reclined, my arms only a few inches below my shoulders, resting on my desk. My eyes are level with about 3" from the bottom of my monitors. I'm probably breaking every ergonomics rule.

I have to have my phone remind me to get up, if it was just about comfort or back pain I could sit all day.

Who knows if there will be long term effects from this, but my body is telling me no. Invest in a good chair.

</comment><comment><USER16> I've made this comment before but I'll do it again because I honestly feel like the way Westerners approach this problem is deeply wrong.

Look to the East my brethren! Get a kneeling bench or meditation cushion set, buy a bench from Ikea, put your computer on it and get to work.

This goes even better with an external ergonomic keyboard like the Kinesis and a height adjustable laptop stand clamped to the bench.

Check it out! [https://cloud.disroot.org/s/XZnwfi9m7xicyCx](https://cloud.disroot.org/s/XZnwfi9m7xicyCx)

<comment><USER17> I really like this idea. I have struggled with back and neck issues for a long time. I think I shall have to try this. Btw, that thinkpad looks exactly like my p51s.

<comment><USER16> It's a P50!

No kidding, I've struggled with the same my whole life. Got into Olympic lifting, saw chiropractors, osteopaths: moving to sit on the floor was the only thing that saved me.

My Keybase is linked in my profile if you have any questions!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Lift weights.

<comment><USER19> That plus mobility exercises (DeFranco Agile 8 is a good base, adjust as needed).

[https://www.t-nation.com/training/defranco- agile-8](https://www.t-nation.com/training/defranco-agile-8)

<comment><USER20> What?! How'd they get that black-and-white picture of me? :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> Tip for anyone who wants to get into working out but has a hard time sticking to it: sign up for something where you book classes at a fixed time instead of just signing up for a gym. I have been working out at regular gyms for the last 10+ years (it's part of my biz) and recently switched to Crossfit with fixed-classes...insane how the combination of fixed appointment + small group fosters discipline/motivation.

</comment><comment><USER22> I'll echo having a standing desk and alternating between sitting and standing. Also about every hour I'll try to remember to have a 5 minute walk.

</comment><comment><USER23> EDIT: it doesn't actually address the question until the PS. Just my 2 cents on back pain while coding. But it implies not sitting....

Actually, something I just realized is that I'd rather be mostly lying and trying to find a neutral position that gives be proper head alignment while not 'flex' my neck muscles. It allows me to type use my computer while completely relaxed.

It requires being able to lie down and exercise every 2h to 'activate' you muscles every so often.

I know that in this position, I can type for 12 hours easy, a few days in a row (I'm only 26 though). My father has bad back pain (slipped disc for many decades) and since I was a kid I've seen him work on his computer lying down over week-end in his bed with a bunch of pillows.

But I always wondered if this was actually a sustainable posture. What do you guys think ? Would I rather code sitting down as much as I can and only lie down when I need to ? But if it's better to kinda lye down like in a Lamborgini when using a computer, maybe that's the future ! ^^

I'm sorry I don't have a better recommendation for OP, good luck to you :)

P. S. I've seen people recommend the Kinesis Advantage2 keyboard, just letting your know that my brother was going through RSI and this keyboard helped him tremendously. He also invested in an 'ergonomic' chair he felt comfortable working on. And also invested in a desk that you can raise and work standing up from. It's a big investment but he's feeling muuuuch better. You're an 'athelete' of the computers, I think that justifies buying 'athlete' equipment for us. Just like a race car driver has an crazy car or Federer has a crazy racket and good shoes.

</comment><comment><USER24> Lots of great tips here regarding taking breaks every 30 mins to stand, walk, stretch, etc. Yoga and other forms of core strengthening exercise will help reinforce better posture.

If you don't do this already then ensure that your knees are lower than your hips by placing a cushion or something underneath you [1]. That seems to help promote the natural curve in the lower back. Doing that while gently lowering shoulders, keeping them back, and raising the chest forward a bit helps a lot. For me it's a dynamic process that requires frequent checking-in to make adjustments and release tension.

[1] [https://www.garmaonhealth.com/wp- content/uploads/2014/12/Sea...](https://www.garmaonhealth.com/wp- content/uploads/2014/12/Seated-Meditation-Alignment.gif)

Linked from this site [https://www.garmaonhealth.com/meditation-posture- manifests-g...](https://www.garmaonhealth.com/meditation-posture-manifests- goals/)

</comment><comment><USER25> I've had severe, 2-3x weekly migraines most of my life (I'm 30) and in the last year I've managed to virtually eliminate them. Posture turned out to be a big part of this. Some of the things I've done that seem to have made a huge difference:

\- Sit closer to the edge of my chair - I'm a bit shorter than many are designed for. I keep a small cushion between my back and my office chair. It keeps me sitting upright and helps my legs form right angles with themselves, with the floor, with my back, and be well-supported. With my back supporting itself more, I don't slouch as easily. If you're also short, also look into foot rests so your feet don't dangle.

\- I've spent some time messing with arm-rests but my current office chair can't get to quite the right height and I haven't found a good solution (don't want to buy yet another chair). The only migraines I've had recently felt connected to spasms in my shoulder, so I suspect that's still my weak spot.

\- Raise my monitor up, big time. It's actually at eye-level if I look straight ahead, not just at a level that seems normal for looking at.

\- Work out more. I just bought a moderately heavy kettle bell to build some strength and get my wriggles out. A few times a day when I walk by, I'll pick it up and do a few lifts in each arm, do a couple of back exercises. Not directly related to posture, but I'm sure it helps, and also helps with some related issues. Any moderate exercise is probably good.

\- Massage therapy every 6 weeks or so - often timed to be right after I return from a business trip or some other very stressful time. Now that I'm used to this, honestly I don't need much of an excuse to go :) Again, not directly related to posture, but if you're suffering from the problems related to bad posture, this could help to while you're figuring it out (since I'm sure it takes some experimentation for most people).

</comment><comment><USER26> Sit-stand desk: [https://jakeseliger.com/2015/01/24/geekdesk-max-sit-stand- de...](https://jakeseliger.com/2015/01/24/geekdesk-max-sit-stand-desk-review- two-years-with-a-motorized-desk)

As others have said too, lifting weights / yoga.

There is no "easy" answer. Sitting seems very bad. These recent discussions: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16465294](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16465294) and [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16471215](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16471215) are useful.

</comment><comment><USER27> Take breaks every hour or so to do a few minutes of deep squats, push-ups or any other stretchy activity. Not only will you be able maintain better posture, but you may also find yourself more refreshed to take on your work flow without mental fatigue.

</comment><comment><USER28> I used to have debilitating back pain. I saw chiropractors and got frequent back massages, wore a lifting belt at times, invested in a high end tempurpedic bed (which I recommend), and stretched daily. Besides the bed, the most useful move was a proper chair. I have an Aeron that I love and recently suggested the same for my brother, who also has frequent back pain. Whatever brand you choose, proper seating is invaluable.

[https://www.hermanmiller.com/products/seating/office- chairs/...](https://www.hermanmiller.com/products/seating/office-chairs/aeron- chairs/)

</comment><comment><USER29> One thing I realized after starting Pilates was that before I didn't have good posture not because I didn't remember to sit correctly but rather I didn't have the muscular strength to keep my body on that position. With a weak abdominal core, you get fatigued from sitting straight and quickly relax to lean on the chair, putting strain on your spine which lead to back pains.

You need exercise to have a healthy muscular strength to hold your skeleton properly. When you achieve that sitting straight is not the burden it felt before.

</comment><comment> huy-nguyen I have an adjustable desk at work and alternate between sitting and standing every hour or so. The bathroom is also on another floor so I walk up/down the stairs a few times a day.

<comment><USER30> > The bathroom is also on another floor so I walk up/down the stairs a few > times a day.

It does seem like this is one of the better ways to go about it, where you have to get up. In my case the vending machine that takes Apple Pay is across campus/base a quarter mile away.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> I have scoliosis and a chronically screwed up upper back. If I sit at a desk with a bad ergo setup, I will experience back pain within 30-45 minutes. I'm pretty tall, so the majority of desk setups are, by default, too short, and force me to hunch over my keyboard. A good chair helps as well.

Besides that, regular exercise helps tremendously. Seriously, if you do not exercise at least twice a week, I would strongly advise making beginning to do so your highest priority.

</comment><comment><USER32> I recommend Gokhale method ([https://www.amazon.com/Steps-Pain-Free-Back- Solutions-Should...](https://www.amazon.com/Steps-Pain-Free-Back-Solutions- Shoulder/dp/0979303605)) which helped me fix my back pain and allow to sit for long periods of time without any problem. This book will teach you how to sit correctly and few other things about your back.

</comment><comment><USER33> I used to have back pain from sitting too long. So I fixed the problem by going to gym (couple of times a week) and taking short breaks every 45 - <USER2> minutes while at work. Just going to get a glass of water, visiting the bathroom, moving to talk to a colleague did the trick. Also push ups, almost daily, twice a day doing 20 push ups really made a difference.

</comment><comment><USER34> I have a simple standing table arrangement. My main table is wide enough to put another small side table on it (bought for 5 quid or so at Ikea). Most of the time I sit, but several times a day I stand using the side table. Works perfectly. Standing up also helps me to re-focus. I highly recommend this.

</comment><comment><USER34> I also recommend the foundation training. It's helping me a lot and really simple to do. Have a look: [https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOkRpabTWz-G5dRqsABppDQ](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOkRpabTWz-G5dRqsABppDQ)

</comment><comment><USER35> I don't bother. I got a nice hunch going on. No back pain, though! I'm very comfortable.

</comment><comment><USER36> One weird trick: sit at the very front of your chair with your thighs pitched down, weight resting on your butt. That will angle your pelvis forward, closer to a standing position. You should find it easier to sit upright with your spine straight.

</comment><comment><USER37> I find not leaning back when doing a physical activity like typing helps. So that means I lean a little a bit forward. This takes more energy but reduces strain put on the joints/muscles that are tensed while typing.

</comment><comment><USER38> No need for anything crazy - just position your laptop so the screen is at eye level when you're sitting up straight. My personal setup is Roost Stand + external keyboard & mouse.

And I'd echo lifting weights.

</comment><comment><USER39> If you really want to improve your posture get really bad asthma and run a lot at fast speeds. The rest of the day you are in recovery and when the pollen or arosoles get really bad you will probably be spending a good portion of the day in a casual asthma attack. Today was really bad as I had to limit myself to a 14 minute two mile and that left me utterly exhausted.

Good posture at this point becomes involuntary, provided you remain awake, as you are casually trying to focus with minimal air intake. Your body will naturally right itself into the most rigid form that benefits pulmonary relaxation at the cost of other muscle systems, particularly as the bonchial muscle systems approach muscle failure and your asthma symptoms subside.

</comment><comment><USER40> Not for posture per se, but two things that help me:

\- Using a standing desk, and alternating between sitting and standing during the day.

\- Using a break program (I use MacBreakZ) to do some stretches every 45 minutes or so.

</comment><comment><USER41> I spend a lot of time on calls. Whenever I can (if I'm not on video) I stand up and pace around my office during the call. Some times I even grab a resistance band.

</comment><comment><USER42> I follow a pomodoro-music approach. Play ambient music for 25 minutes and go for a walk.

Apart form that, lifting weights in the gym and doing back exercises.

</comment><comment><USER43> Use a desktop setup with a height adjustable monitor (or a pile of 'learn this language' fat books) and an external keyboard.

</comment><comment><USER44> Proper desk height, proper chair height.

I'm 6'4", so nothing 'standard' even confess close to being ergonomic

</comment><comment><USER45> Quitting sitting job has allowed me to stand and move often.

</comment><comment><USER46> Stand for part of the day.

</comment><comment><USER47> With an ergodox keyboard.

</comment><comment><USER48> I lift.

</comment><comment> cup-of-tea I lift weights and stretch on a regular basis. Even though I spend only a fraction of my time doing this and most of my time sitting I do not suffer from back pain or posture problems. I used to suffer from both.

I've been doing strength training for almost two years now and I've got to the point where my strength is classed as "advanced". That's roughly where a reasonably strong person can expect to get to with consistent training and no drug use. I also finely control my diet.

For strength training I used a program called Greyskull LP (Phrak's variation) [1] and for my diet I use Leangains. Both are quite technical and make sense to hackers, I think. Phrak's variation of GSLP is important because it places equal emphasis on pull movements for upper body. These are better for the shoulder joints than pushing and lead to having balanced strength. Unbalance is the cause of many pains and posture problems.

For stretching I used a program calling "Starting Stretching" [3]. I was able to increase my flexibility significantly which helps me with cycling.

[1] [http://i.stack.imgur.com/OUcEY.png](http://i.stack.imgur.com/OUcEY.png) [2] [https://www.reddit.com/r/leangains/wiki/faq](https://www.reddit.com/r/leangains/wiki/faq) [3] [https://phrakture.github.io/starting- stretching.html](https://phrakture.github.io/starting-stretching.html)

<comment><USER49> I've been doing Stronglifts for a bit, fell off for a few months but got back on it regularly the past 6 months or so.

My biggest problem has always been my diet. I'm pretty used to eating whatever I want as I've always been tall and lean. At the moment I eat a lot of tacos, eggs and bacon, I also eat a spicy chicken deluxe from Chick-Fil-A for lunch every day I'm in the office. Probably not the best diet. I'm not opposed to eating healthier foods, but for the past couple weeks I've been doing time restricted eating to pretty decent effect. Basically the same thing as intermittent fasting, just not as much of a focus on the diet side of things.

All this to say, all the advice I've seen online about what diet are focusing on macros, which is great. What I really want though is specific meals that are easy to make in large quantities so I don't have to spend all my time cooking. Do you have any resources for that? I've come across some sites like [https://www.eatthismuch.com/](https://www.eatthismuch.com/), but last I checked the recipes are kind of lacking. Any recommendations there?

<comment><USER50> I'm confused. If you've always been tall and lean and are trying to get strong, why are you restricting your eating? Tacos, eggs, bacon and chicken are all great foods to fuel a program like Stronglifts.

<comment><USER49> Well, I've gained about 25 pounds, a lot of which is muscle, but some of it was fat as well. I'm probably about 15-18% bodyfat now. Since summer is approaching I'm thinking I want to cut. I've never really tried to cut before so I'm at a bit of a loss as to how to do that. I would basically just eat everything in an attempt to gain weight.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER51> I don't sit except when necessary. I can do that because I'm looking for a job. It's been a few months and I noticed my bad back condition drastically improved out of sudden. I promised myself to never sit again in front of computer at home. I Currently have my PC next to bed.

Standing desk is not a solution. Standing for long periods is less healthy than walking. Ask any barber about occupational diseases. They'll tell you there are issues with knees and blood circulation. Ask any person whose job involves standing for long periods of time, like a shop clerk.

I do 40 minutes of core exercises 4 times a week due to my bad back, and it's helping a great deal. Recently I started incorporating the ultimate back exercise - pullups. But I believe the long term solution is a chaise or a very horizontal recliner, like a dentist's chair. Obviously you're NOT going to get something like that installed at a typical job unless you're the CEO I guess.

</comment><comment> bra-ket Take a break for a smoke every half an hour

<comment><USER52> s/smoke/walk/</comment></comment>


Learning advanced math by drawing, playing with beach balls and knitting - <AUTHOR> https://www.smithsonianmag.com/innovation/what-knitting-can-teach-you-about-math-180969637?no-ist <comment><USER2> If this subject is interesting to you, and you haven't read _Mindstorms_ yet, I cannot recommend it enough. The entire book is an exploration of the significance of mental models in learning.

A quote from the opening:

'BEFORE I WAS two years old I had developed an intense involvement with automobiles. The names of car parts made up a very substantial portion of my vocabulary: I was particularly proud of knowing about the parts of the transmission system, the gearbox, and most especially the differential. It was, of course, many years later before I understood how gears work; but once I did, playing with gears became a favorite pastime. I loved rotating circular objects against one another in gearlike motions and, naturally, my first "erector set" project was a crude gear system. I became adept at turning wheels in my head and at making chains of cause and effect: "This one turns this way so that must turn that way so..." I found particular pleasure in such systems as the differential gear, which does not follow a simple linear chain of causality since the motion in the transmission shaft can be distributed in many different ways to the two wheels depending on what resistance they encounter. I remember quite vividly my excitement at discovering that a system could be lawful and completely comprehensible without being rigidly deterministic. I believe that working with differentials did more for my mathematical development than anything I was taught in elementary school. Gears, serving as models, carried many otherwise abstract ideas into my head. I clearly remember two examples from school math. I saw multiplication tables as gears, and my first brush with equations in two variables (e.g., 3x + 4y = 10) immediately evoked the differential. By the time I had made a mental gear model of the relation between x and y, figuring how many teeth each gear needed, the equation had become a comfortable friend.'

<comment><USER3> Who is the author of the Mindstorms book? I see several different books with this title.

<comment><USER4> I think it's Seymour Papert. Mindstorms: Children, Computers, and Powerful Ideas, 1980, ISBN 0-465-04674-6

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I can learn to understand basics of many advanced concepts outside engineering math to the level where I can read/skimp some research papers and understand the thinking behind it. But it's very hard to recognize the concept on my own and the utility 'on the wild' unless someone else is pointing it out and explains it.

Take for example Sheaf[1]. The basics are not that hard if you spend some time. But once you have learned it in abstract. Can you see use for it [2] in data analytic, signal processing, or machine learning? How long you have to work for it to really click to the point where you can see and utilize the concept?

I think this is the reason why mathematicians are needed more in every area. They should walk around pointing things out.

[1]: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheaf_(mathematics)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheaf_\(mathematics\))

[2]: [http://www.drmichaelrobinson.net/20131024_overview.pdf](http://www.drmichaelrobinson.net/20131024_overview.pdf)

<comment><USER6> Oh, if only I could make a career of pointing math things out :)

Joking aside, I think a lot of researchers will oversell the applications of their technology, so it's just as important to be able to recognize when a particular math thing will help, and when it's more harm than good. The first rule of statistics is: if the decision maker already has their heart set on a particular action, you shouldn't waste your time and money designing a statistical study with fancy tests and inference techniques.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> "Me before #strangeloop: I'm not a real programmer unless I know Haskell

Me after #strangeloop: I'm not a real programmer unless I knit"

[https://twitter.com/adam_chal/status/914207020215042048](https://twitter.com/adam_chal/status/914207020215042048)

<comment><USER8> This depresses me, because there's a strange .. loop in society where people thinks advance means unaccessible and university lab only. Where in fact most concepts are uber 'simple' in form and can be explored quite easily. Similarly there was an article about J. Bose early radio research where you could see polarizing filters made out of a book with metal foil interspersed. I really feel bad about the distorted reality people live in.

<comment><USER9> > where you could see polarizing filters made out of a book with metal foil > interspersed

A tangent. In case you missed the amazing documentary "Magic, Art, and Scanimation", it is all about the iterative process of "making" magic through hard work, creativity, and insight.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17271786](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17271786)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLfLSjbm4s8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLfLSjbm4s8)

<comment><USER8> never heard of it, thanks

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Yes, learning by playing!

A collaborative science-based games list: [https://github.com/stared/science- based-games-list/](https://github.com/stared/science-based-games-list/) (and its discussion: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14661813](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14661813))

</comment><comment><USER11> Is there a book full of this type of stuff that would be useful with young children?

<comment><USER9> Not exactly but YES!

One of my favorite books is Steven Caney's "Play"

[https://www.amazon.com/Steven-Caneys-Playbook- Caney/dp/09111...](https://www.amazon.com/Steven-Caneys-Playbook- Caney/dp/0911104372)

From an older edition, one of many projects was making a hammock out of old 6-pack rings. For many years, the plastic used in these rings is designed to degrade, but at the time the book was written it would have worked.

[http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Zkz9la3e96c/SmyCb2oFfvI/AAAAAAAABt...](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Zkz9la3e96c/SmyCb2oFfvI/AAAAAAAABtE/lWrkQ1IRKaU/s1600-h/six+pack+001.jpg)

<comment><USER12> Matt Parker's "Things to Make and Do in the Fourth Dimension" is a good one too: [https://www.amazon.com/Things-Make-Do-Fourth-Dimension- ebook...](https://www.amazon.com/Things-Make-Do-Fourth-Dimension- ebook/dp/B00O2LM3LW)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I knew a grad student who used a ball of yarn to learn knot theory.

<comment><USER14> It is quite interesting how our brains tend to deny the role of the rest of our body in the process of thinking. After seeing Alan Kay's "Doing With Images Makes Symbols", and his TED Talk "a poweful idea about ideas", I realised how silly that line of thinking was[0].

Using the right things to fiddle with physical manifestations of an idea lets "my hands" think along the more "abstract" parts of my brain. And doing that kind of parallel work is actually very useful.

[0] [https://archive.org/details/AlanKeyD1987_2](https://archive.org/details/AlanKeyD1987_2)

[1] [https://archive.org/details/AlanKay_2007](https://archive.org/details/AlanKay_2007)

<comment><USER15> Brains think brains are the best problem-solvers.

Eyes see eyes as the most beautiful part of the body.

Skin feels that skin is the best part to touch.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> For knitting, I expected links to [https://www.americanscientist.org/article/adventures-in- math...](https://www.americanscientist.org/article/adventures-in-mathematical- knitting), [http://scientificamerican.com/article/the-stunning- symbiosis...](http://scientificamerican.com/article/the-stunning-symbiosis- between-math-and-knitting-slide-show1/), or [http://www.toroidalsnark.net/mathknit.html](http://www.toroidalsnark.net/mathknit.html)

<comment><USER17> Reminds me of crocheted hyperbolic surfaces, which make it easier to visualize some less-intuitive properties of hyperbolic geodesics:

[http://www.theiff.org/oexhibits/oe1e.html](http://www.theiff.org/oexhibits/oe1e.html)

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> I liked mathematics, but nobody got me to crave it like Vihart. That Youtube legend covers complex mathematics like no one else. The teaching method introduced in the article spontaneously reminded me of her chaotically creative ways...

</comment><comment><USER19> Dirac independently rediscovered the purl stitch. [https://books.google.com/books?id=Su-k9Kld5ooC&pg=PA232&lpg=...](https://books.google.com/books?id=Su-k9Kld5ooC&pg=PA232&lpg=PA232&dq=paul+dirac+purl+stitch&source=bl&ots=dOJ0LRsoaR&sig=hc9ndZRxogoMhT1iEXttCK6Alpk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj03eS6-qbcAhUMUa0KHQnkDt8Q6AEwDHoECAMQAQ#v=onepage&q=paul%20dirac%20purl%20stitch&f=false)

</comment><comment><USER20> I think the way you learn advanced math is going to class, reading a textbook, reading a paper, going to a talk, talking to a friend, etc.

</comment><comment><USER21> Reminds me of this Richard Feynman story: [https://thinkingwiththings.wordpress.com/2012/03/16/richard-...](https://thinkingwiththings.wordpress.com/2012/03/16/richard- feynman-and-womens-invisible-skills-22/)

</comment><comment><USER22> Title is clickbait. Whatever you can learn from "drawing, playing with beach balls and knitting" is most likely not _advanced math_. (Otherwise professors in a math department would all be playing knitting and beach balls to get tenure.) Advanced math is hard. It is like toiling in the field under a scorching sun.

Edit: Didn't see that the author of the article is a math professor. This method seems to work in a liberal arts college, but I doubt it would work in a STEM curriculum.

<comment><USER15> I'll defer to the math professor on this one.

<comment><USER22> I'd be curious to see what a math prof would have on this.

But IMHO, math is learned by _writing proofs_. That is the only solid way for building an understanding.

<comment><USER23> The author of the linked article _is_ a math professor.

Additionally, not all math is writing proofs. It's also applying their results (a student doesn't need to _prove_ 2+2=4 to _use_ 2+2=4 in some computation) and developing intuitions about the nature of mathematical objects (which can then be used to guide future development by helping to discover new hypotheses to prove).

<comment><USER22> Fair enough. I didn't see the last line. I retract what I said earlier.

Still I am not very convinced that it is a good idea to teach STEM students that way. The author of the article works at a liberal arts college.

<comment><USER24> Lots of people falsely equate the liberal arts with the humanities. This is a misconception that I try to fight in my in-person conversations with people. Math, chemistry, physics, and biology are all liberal arts. Business, engineering, nursing, and other types of professional training are not liberal arts.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Sonos's "recycle mode" intentionally bricks devices so they can't be reused - <AUTHOR> https://twitter.com/atomicthumbs/status/1210662988828442624 <comment><USER2> What a total waste.

Apparel companies are starting to participate in the secondary market for their used gear, why can't Sonos do something similar?

Examples: \- Patagonia Worn Wear ([https://wornwear.patagonia.com](https://wornwear.patagonia.com)) \- REI Used Gear ([https://www.rei.com/used/shop/gear](https://www.rei.com/used/shop/gear)) \- Arc'teryx Rock Solid ([https://rocksolid.arcteryx.com](https://rocksolid.arcteryx.com))

As it stands, Sonos is effectively buying their old speakers and then throwing them away. Could they not recoup their costs and avoid e-waste by simply selling the used Sonos devices into a market that can't afford the brand new ones? I thought this is how most phone trade-in programs worked, which seems like a mature process now.

<comment><USER3> Then they would have to continue supporting those devices, which isn't part of the planned obsolescence business model. It would also dilute the luxury brand halo that Sonos has tried to cultivate.

It's more like Louis Vuitton getting into the secondhand market. They too would (and do) destroy merchandise rather than let it get sold at a discount and dilute the brand value.

<comment><USER4> For a physical device (ie featured-locked upon shipping), "support" amounts to paying the server bill, which is likely negligible.

<comment><USER5> Would be great if you could use your own server, and that the server code was open.

<comment><USER6> That's why I stick with the squeezebox ecosystem.

Open source server which runs locally. The hardware is long since discontinued (but plentiful and easily available on craigslist etc) and it can never be obsoleted as everything runs locally.

<comment><USER7> Plus Squeeze Network (still free, still working) for Pandora, Spotify, or other network services.

Have you tried squeezeplayer on a RPi with a DAC? It works great. I have one alongside my original Squuezebox. They sync perfectly for multiroom audio.

With a DAC, it runs fine on a Zero. Cheap.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> What's intensely frustrating about this is that audio equipment is one of the few areas where old high end kit is still absolutely fantastic for current users. I have an NAD 3020 from the 1980s which works perfectly with the same pair of speakers that it was bought with. I can't say the same about other tech, but audio just doesn't age at the same speed.

<comment><USER9> _I can't say the same about other tech, but audio just doesn't age at the same speed._

People's ears have not changed, and the ability to reproduce sound has been nearly perfected. If you're not too picky/audiophillic, like most people, the requirements are even lower.

<comment><USER10> Literally the only "improvements" that are ever going to happen to audio in your lifetime will be a) internetifying it and b) adding more restrictions to how you use it.

We've hit peak audio (best reproduction, no restrictions on usage) and it's only downhill from here.

I look forward to my 2025 speakers that only work for an hour a day unless I pay for extra time credits.

"Do you wish to play a) music b) music and local radio c) music, local radio and podcasts [BEST VALUE]?"

<comment><USER11> What about things like Dolby atmos that use 3D noise wave cancellation/amplification technology to effectively do to surround sound what 3D glasses did for the TV

<comment><USER12> doesn't do a thing for music.

<comment><USER13> It doesn't do anything for "music that happened to be mastered in 2-4 channels".

It does plenty for music.

<comment><USER14> _Produced_ , mixed _and_ mastered.

So that's not really plenty of music.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> It seems like a lot of commenters here (as well as the tweets) are totally missing the purpose of the recycle mode.

If you want to sell, give away, or otherwise let someone else reuse your Sonos, then _DON 'T PUT IT IN RECYCLE MODE_. Easy peasy.

Recycle mode exists for when you _intentionally want to get a Sonos trade-in credit for recycling your speakers for materials_. But because you don't send the speakers directly to Sonos (instead to a local recycler), they have to trust you're actually recycling it instead of keeping it or selling it. So the recycle lock is a clever mechanism to ensure that. Otherwise you could "cheat" by getting the credit AND still using/selling your speakers.

So if you want your speakers to be reused... _don 't take the credit!!_ Donate or sell them instead! It's _your choice_.

It seems to me like overall it's a good set of incentives. The credit helps encourage people to recycle them at all instead of just throwing them in the trash, right? But doesn't prevent people from otherwise selling or donating them. Since it _gives the consumer all the choice_ , this seems like a win for all sides, no?

<comment><USER16> People understand the purpose of it quite well. They just completely disagree with your analysis.

First, the most environmental form of recycling is for an object to be reused as is. So, if any item is given to a recycling center, if the recycling center can just sell it directly to someone else, then it's much more environmentally friendly.

Second, the credit doesn't encourage people to recycle them at all instead of throwing it in the trash, there's no verification that they've given it to a recycling center. The only thing is that after the recycling mode is enable, the device becomes a useless paperweight.

So it's an extremely environmentally unfriendly policy from a company who pretends they care about the environment.

<comment><USER17> > So, if any item is given to a recycling center, if the recycling center can > just sell it directly to someone else, then it's much more environmentally > friendly.

I think OP's analysis did cover that. You don't have to put it in the recycle mode. You can sell it yourself or choose not to get the credit so someone else can "Recycle" it by reusing it.

I do agree with you that people could still put in the trash, but I also think that's where good recycling programs matter. It shouldn't be hard to recycle an electronic. It should be as simple as recycling paper or glass, especially in an age where almost everything is electronic.

<comment><USER18> If they really want to encourage reuse of their devices, why would they incentivize the users to turn their devices into unusable trash by giving them credits for doing that?

> but I also think that's where good recycling programs matter.

However good your recycling program is, it is still going to be _strictly more_ wasteful than simply reusing the device.

<comment><USER19> > If they really want to encourage reuse of their devices, why would they > incentivize the users to turn their devices into unusable trash by giving > them credits for doing that?

It's another alternative. Some people just won't bother trying to resell it.

<comment><USER20> This is covered in the Twitter thread. Individual consumers might not go through the hassle, but a recycling center totally will: they tend to have market connections to refurbish used equipment, and prefer that option because they know it's more sustainable than scrapping perfectly good hardware for raw materials.

If the device works, and someone else wants it, then it has been recycled very efficiently. Sonos policy here is _backwards._

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> Well, this is where the industry is going. The latest buzzword we hear in the industry is called "product as a service" — you buy a product, but still don't own it. You have to keep paying them for using your own property or else they remotely brick the device.

First gen Ipods were a prime example, but now everybody seem to want to do the same.

We recently had a prospective client who had an idea of very cheap internet connected Ipod clone, who of course had a "genius business model" of jacking the price n-fold after sale under a threat of remote bricking.

I'm very glad we refused.

<comment><USER22> > Well, this is where the industry is going. The latest buzzword we hear in > the industry is called "product as a service" — you buy a product, but still > don't own it, and have to keep your subscription going so the seller don't > remotely brick your device.

This is exactly what Cisco has done in the small/medium sized business market with their acquisition of Meraki. Pay forever or your router and wifi stops working. It's abhorrent.

<comment><USER23> It's also the direction Microsoft has been slowly moving Windows. You think it'd be bad if your router stopped working when you stopped paying, imagine the same scenario for your operating system.

<comment><USER24> MS is very aggressive with this in their Windows 10 development VM images you can download. Theyre free, but they only last 3 months. There doesnt appear to be anyway to activate - even if you have a legit license key through my.visualstudio.com.

The VM prebuilt with VStudio, Visual Studio Code, WSL w/ Ubuntu and other goodies in a prebuilt image is attractive and a time saver. But, it's immediately on a kill switch timer of about 3 months, if you download while new. Current image expires in Feb 2020.

I was using this to connect to work in a VPN in an effort to keep work and personal separate, but I'll have to burn a Win10 license key from my subscription for a new VM.

Caveat: the expiration doesnt render the image entirely worthless, but it will only stay up for around 90 mins before shutting down without warning.

<comment><USER25> I just take a snapshot then revert after 90 days. Seems to work. I vaguely remember MS docs suggesting this.

You can also refresh them with a powershell command a limited number of times IIRC.

<comment><USER26> I think it was in the instructions for using the Internet Explorer/Edge VMs (see page 3): [https://az792536.vo.msecnd.net/vms/release_notes_license_ter...](https://az792536.vo.msecnd.net/vms/release_notes_license_terms_8_1_15.pdf)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> This could go very bad for Sonos.

Imagine a virus that looks for Sonos devices on a network and bricks them all via "recycle mode"!

The API probably isn't even locked down. I think it's unauthenticated SOAP/UPnP.

An even dumber attack: guests with your wifi credentials can download the Sonos app and break your gear. It's entirely unauthenticated.

<comment><USER28> Im in the market for sound equipment. I just crossed these guys off my list.

<comment><USER29> I'm curious what you would recommend instead. Everyone is listing speakers they bought decades ago but what are the latest non-sonos speakers that people like?

<comment><USER30> Don't buy smart speakers. Just buy regular speakers. Then you can plug them into whatever you like, run whatever software you like (e.g. pi musicbox) etc. So you actually own them, and they should serve you well for many years, for whatever you may need.

Also don't buy soundbars. Speakers don't want to be long and skinny. You'll end up paying a lot more for a lot less sound.

Also consumer grade speakers are often more expensive for crappier sound. Look into professional models, like studio monitors. For example, JBL 305PMKII. You may be able to find a local store where you can listen to studio monitors before purchasing.

<comment> mark-r I've found Guitar Center to be a good place to check out and buy monitor speakers and headphones.

<comment><USER31> I don't know if it still applies, but studio speakers used to be notorious for bad sound. I would also hope that you wouldn't be considering guitar amp-type speakers as well.

<comment><USER32> Depends on what you spend. Good studio monitors should have fairly flat response across the audio spectrum and most tend to be Near-field monitors which sound absolutely great when you are positioned in front of them as you would for mixing, but don't sound quite as good when used as a general room speaker. Mind you they are often still better than many peoples setups just the same. The ones that are not Near field can work even better for a general audio situation but tend to cost even more.

Some studio monitors like the popular KRK series are not flat response and are a bit bass heavy.

<comment><USER31> This is why I said that studio speakers *used to be notorious for . . .". Recording studios were notorious for having bad sounding speakers.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> So Sonos devices need "activation" via some server on the internet? Why? If I just want to stream audio within my own home, why is internet even necessary? And what happens when Sonos goes out of business and the servers are shut down?

I just don't understand why people keep buying such things...

<comment> Al-Khwarizmi They seem to be one of the few brands that give good audio quality and modern convenience at the same time.

For example, I was looking for a device that would (1) be placeable on my living room furniture[1], and let me use a couple of trusty Monitor Audio speakers both (2) for playing music (e.g. from my phone, computer or streaming sources like Spotify) and (3) for TV audio, as those speakers sound much better than a modern soundbar. And that (4) could be expandable to surround sound in the future.

I painstakingly examined alternatives in the market. There were many devices that covered the three latter points but the overwhelming majority were AV receivers, which looked great from the audio and flexibility standpoint but were at least 30 cm deep. Not useful for me, as the furniture in my living room is 28 cm deep (wasn't the point of flat screen TVs to no longer need deep furniture taking lots of space in the living room?). I found like 5 or 6 devices that would physically fit. But most of them had no flexibility for surround expansion AND no WiFi, only Bluetooth playback.

Finally, only two devices ticked my boxes and physically fit: HEOS AVR (around €1000, 27.4 cm deep) and Sonos Amp (around €600, 21.69 cm deep) which wasn't even out yet.

Since 27.4 cm deep was still quite dubious for my 28-cm-deep furniture, I finally waited for the Sonos to come out and bought it. Sonos wasn't especially on my radar, as a relatively traditional audio amateur it's not a brand I trusted, but there they were, the only ones offering the product I wanted. And indeed, it works well, it powers my speakers nicely enough and it's very convenient. I'm watching the TV, want to stream something from Spotify: TV audio is automatically muted. I stop listening to Spotify: TV audio comes back.

Why no one else has made a device that can provide good TV audio and good music playback in a shallow form factor still escapes me. I don't think my requirements were so weird, in freaking 2018.

[1] Sorry, I'm missing the specific English word for the specific piece of furniture in the living room where one has a bunch of books, CDs, mixed souvenirs and the TV, so I'll just call it "the living room furniture".

<comment><USER34> I feel like 30cm max depth is going to be a problem for most audio gear. So- called compact ones seem to optimize for height, with depth around 40cm [1], and the shallower ones [2, 3] seem to be around 31-33cm. Get a deeper console?

[1] [https://www.crutchfield.com/S-JPQM9erNVfS/p_642NR1609/Marant...](https://www.crutchfield.com/S-JPQM9erNVfS/p_642NR1609/Marantz- NR1609.html)

[2] [https://www.bestbuy.com/site/sony-7-2-ch-with-dolby- atmos-4k...](https://www.bestbuy.com/site/sony-7-2-ch-with-dolby- atmos-4k-ultra-hd-a-v-home-theater-receiver-black/6219445.p)

[3] [https://www.crutchfield.com/S-5ZKPlNFrS4r/p_022RXV585/Yamaha...](https://www.crutchfield.com/S-5ZKPlNFrS4r/p_022RXV585/Yamaha- RX-V585.html)

<comment> Al-Khwarizmi So that's precisely my point: convenience. My option was:

\- Bend over backwards to buy from other audio brands, by throwing away my perfectly functional and nice designer furniture and replacing it with something deeper, that would take more space, probably be (IMHO) uglier and fit the room worse, and annoy my partner who doesn't care for audio as much as I do.

\- Buy the Sonos Amp because it does the job while being small and fitting my existing furniture without further ado.

It was an easy choice...

I understand and respect that in homes where audio is a really high priority, they will plan the room around it and have deep enough furniture. On the other extreme, people who don't care much about audio just are happy buying any of the multiple sound bars in the market that fit anywhere. But if you are in the middle ground, i.e. you want a compromise between good audio quality and convenience, it seems that Sonos is practically the only brand that cares. At least in the case of an amp/receiver, that's the case, as I explained. And I suppose this is an important component of Sonos's success (and what surprises me is that others don't do the same...).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> About 8(?) years ago my wife tasked me to get a whole-house audio system that was simple to use. After reading a lot, sonos was the clear choice, though pricey. We started with two play:3's, then added a play:5 and two more play:3's. And things were good.

But for the past year the system has been a mess. Music stutters, some units can't be found, some units fail to upgrade through multiple retries/reboots. I've wasted so many hours relocating them and connecting the misbehaving units to an ethernet cable trying to get them to update.

Eventually things get working again after hours of blind tinkering, but then a month or two later it happens again.

My wife looks to me as the tech guy to solve it, but it is far more opaque to debug then when PCs misbehave. Yes, I know about the secret diag menus and login, but they don't really help me.

The point is: my wife resents that the system doesn't work, and I resent that I've wasted so much time and my wife thinks I'm shirking because every time it comes up I groan and put off the pain of getting it working again.

I won't brick these -- I'll find some use case where they do work, but I'll get some other system to make my wife happy, even if it means spending another $1200+.

<comment><USER36> Honestly, sounds like you need a better wireless router or need to add a (few) repeater(s).

<comment><USER35> Sonos speakers form an ad-hoc mesh network. Although I know that I get > 50 Mbps to every spot in my house where there is a speaker, it shouldn't matter. If the router to sonos #1 gets a signal, as long as sonos #2 is in range of sonos #1, sonos #2 should be served even if it can't see the router.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> I was going to buy a Sonos speaker, but this changed my mind. I'm not buying a device that was built to be bricked.

I would have bought a Sonos instead of an Apple Homepod because I thought they were more "open". But if the manufacturer can just make my device useless, I'm not interested.

Audio and Hifi gear is extremely versatile and virtually everything is compatible. High end devices easily last for decades. This feature makes it clear that Sonos has no intention of following that tradition.

<comment><USER38> > I would have bought a Sonos instead of an Apple Homepod because I thought > they were more "open". But if the manufacturer can just make my device > useless, I'm not interested.

Nope, it's just iOS updates that brick HomePods.

<comment><USER39> That was a bug, not a 'feature' like Recycle Mode.

<comment><USER38> Incidentally, iOS has a remote kill switch as a feature too.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> So, Sonos optionally lets you brick your own device, as part of their Trade Up program that gives a discount on your next device. It's named Recycle mode as, presumably, all the bricked devices are good for is recycling.

There doesn't seem to be anything stopping users from selling their speakers on - they just forgo the Trade Up discount.

The poster's point that this cuts down on re-use of perfectly good products is true, but it doesn't seem that much different to other trade in programs, e.g. Apple's. The difference seems to be that Sonos leave the burden of actually recycling the product (or not) to the user, while Apple does it for you.

<comment><USER41> I assume Apple and other companies sell the used products to liquidators who refurbish and resell them. Is that not true?

<comment><USER42> > I assume Apple and other companies sell the used products to liquidators who > refurbish and resell them. Is that not true?

For high brand value goods, generally no. Goods are crushed to become unserviceable. It's important to do that to maintain brand image, otherwise floods of not-very-old iPhones end up on ebay for $10, and the image of an iPhone as something that lasts and has resale value is shattered.

High end clothing manufacturers will even destroy brand new, never worn clothes to maintain brand image, because they don't want them sitting in the bargain bin looking 'cheap'.

It isn't as bad for the environment as it sounds - the vast majority of the costs in a $1000 iPhone are engineering, IP, licensing, manufacturing, capital and marketing costs. The actual metal and plastic is worth hardly anything, so destroying it isn't a big loss. Even the manufacturing cost is near zero because after launch day of a specific model, the marginal cost to produce one more phone is pretty much zero because production lines are rarely still at capacity.

<comment><USER43> > The actual metal and plastic is worth hardly anything, so destroying it > isn't a big loss. Even the manufacturing cost is near zero because after > launch day of a specific model, the marginal cost to produce one more phone > is pretty much zero because production lines are rarely still at capacity.

A big loss economically, maybe, but in terms of energy/carbon losses, to say it's more efficient to just crush the thing and make a new one seems false. You've pushed from number 1 on the Reuse->Reduce->Recycle->Recover->Landfill to steps 3 and 4, and then created a new iPhone in its place.

Throughout its life, a single iPhone 11 Pro Max is 86 kg CO2e [1]. The XS Max that existed and is crushed to "preserve brand value" is 77 kg CO2e [2] in footprint. Just in manufacturing costs alone, you are creating more CO2e creating the new one than the XS Max did, and taking the XS Max out-of-life early. We are not taking into account you now get to recycle the XS Max or just dump it in landfill.

Destruction of an existing item for "brand value" is _not_ the correct environmental answer.

[1] [https://www.apple.com/environment/pdf/products/iphone/iPhone...](https://www.apple.com/environment/pdf/products/iphone/iPhone_11_Pro_Max_PER_sept2019.pdf)

[2] [https://www.apple.com/environment/pdf/products/iphone/iPhone...](https://www.apple.com/environment/pdf/products/iphone/iPhone_XS_Max_PER_sept2018.pdf)

<comment><USER44> I am with you on the ethics side, but he is correct, impact is immaterial, and your numbers confirm it the typical impact of a person, a year, is measured in tons of CO2, 90 kg amounts to like a few days of heating or a festive dinner, or filling up your car tank.

However, if they are not recycled and the materials end up in plastic pollution, heavy metal poisoning, or other damage, that's a whole different story.

<comment><USER45> No, I'd say the real elephant in the room is that the vast majority of pollution is caused by industry. Example: the US military is the worlds largest polluter.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> If there's a demand, someone industrious will likely figure out a hack --- I hope. Server-side _blacklisting_ (unlike whitelisting) doesn't stop someone from simply changing whatever unique ID they have to a different one. I can even see repair shops doing this service for those who accidentally bricked their devices.

This reminds me of a related situation I've seen with electric toothbrushes --- they have instructions on how to remove the battery "for recycling", which is deliberately designed to make the unit self-destruct in the process (by e.g. making the plastic thin and fragile, and the wires brittle and easily broken), but others have figured out how to use those same instructions to open it up and replace the cells at a fraction of the cost of a new unit. The fact that nothing needs to be broken to replace them, and that it could be trivially designed to make that job much easier, clearly demonstrates planned obolescence.

<comment><USER46> I disagree. Electric toothbrushes need to be 100 % waterproof to be usable safely. If I were a toothbrush manufacturer, I'd at least look into making the brush self-destruct when opened, for safety reasons (and safety reasons alone).

<comment><USER47> What about an electric toothbrush is unsafe if it is not 100% waterproof?

<comment><USER48> You might feel a minor tingle on your tongue if the battery connects to it somehow

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER49> Sonos had a fair shot at having me as a customer. I was ready to put down money on an installation for a house and then I found out it needed 'activation over the internet'. That being _the_ sign of a company to avoid I walked out again, to the consternation of the sales person who had (his words, not mine): "Never had a customer decide against Sonos because of that". Looks like I made the right call.

<comment><USER50> What setup did you end up with?

>"Never had a customer decide against Sonos because of that"

as long as customers don't care neither will Sonos

<comment><USER49> Homebrew.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER51> Am I misunderstanding something? Once in recycle mode you're supposed to send them back so that Sonos can actually recycle (or even reuse, nothing stops them from refurbishing) the old device. Recycle mode seems to simply be a convenience so that people can get the 30% rebate immediately once they've shown they're serious about sending back the device. What sucks is that you have to trade up to recycle, if they offered some buy back program it'd be near perfect, right?

<comment><USER52> Sonos doesn't take back the used devices: they expect users to give them to a local electronics recycler for recycling, where they essentially _have_ to be scrapped, because devices in "recycle mode" are blacklisted in Sonos's servers and can't be resold (even if they're in perfect working order).

</comment></comment><comment><USER53> I wish someone would start making little add-on boards you could put into your Sonos products to bypass the onboard hardware and use your own. Just re-use the amp, speakers.

I built my own spotify receiver using an rpi with a hifiberry add on which worked perfectly. If someone built even simpler custom made Sonos play:5 boards I'd be less reluctant to buy more of them as I fear they may be expensive bricks if Sonos fails.

</comment><comment><USER21> Apple pays Chinese "recyclers" for not to refurbishing their I-stuff, and sending it to a crusher. That's not a big secret in the industry.

A lot of luxury goods brands destroy their unsold merchandise, and some even go Apple style after their second hand market too.

<comment><USER54> "A lot of luxury goods brands destroy their unsold merchandise"

This also happens since probably forever with fruit and vegetables if they're unsold or in overproduction. The reason is to keep prices fixed by artificially reducing the offer.

<comment><USER9> Fruit and vegetables and other perishable goods will effectively self-destruct if unsold anyway, so I don't see that as being quite as bad as deliberate destruction of product that would otherwise last indefinitely.

<comment><USER55> If what I remember about the Great Depression from my history lessons is correct, the picture becomes quite different when you have farmers and vendors destroying food to keep the price up next to masses of people starving because they can't afford the food.

<comment><USER54> That was my point. It still happens everywhere, which I find disgusting.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER56> Hey everyone. I get that Sonos does have some value add here allowing mesh networking and encrypted audio. Buuuuuuuuuut, there are tons of alternative options. I like building speakers and I have built my sound bar using components from parts express and some reclaimed hard woods. Parts express has tons of Bluetooth options and the quality is mostly pretty good. I am using morel and peerless drivers and the 2x50 watt Bluetooth amp. The sound is as good or better than any sound bar I've heard and I don't have to update software or deal with obnoxious TOS agreements. My tv connects to it without issues and while it's not as elegant as the Sonos experience but I will take that over planned obsolescence.

</comment><comment><USER57> Ok, this seems _really_ disgusting.

The post was lacking some context at first but from how I understand this, you can render your sonos device unusable voluntarily and in turn get a new sonos device for a little cheaper. This happens by marking the serial number of your device on the sonos servers as "recycled" making reactivation impossible.

And they're somehow marketing this "feature" as environmentally friendly because it somehow in some twisted sense means you recycle your old device for a new one.

I'm speechless.

<comment><USER58> Seems ripe for a hacking attempt. Being able to kill hardware with software always seems dangerous.

<comment><USER59> According to the twitter thread their ``recycle mode'' works by blacklisting the device's serial number in the mfg's database to prevent it from working, so depending on what you want to do with them they might be perfectly functional.

<comment><USER60> That sounds like Sonos can easily reactivate them, right? That's not a bricking, is it?

<comment><USER61> They've refused to remove people from the blacklist who have accidentally put the devices into recycle mode

<comment><USER62> That really says a lot. I've seen plenty of companies who would have to tell you tough luck, no exceptions if you have a device which is "accidentally" on like a stolen blacklist (take iCloud activation lock for example), since if they have the ability to ever bend the rules, it'll be exploited by thieves -- but the funny part here is that 100% of the devices in "recycled" status are just there because Sonos gave someone a coupon, so the only "reason" for a zero-tolerance policy against reactivation in any circumstances is revenue protection.

Disgusting.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER63> This is shocking. Why do I need to have a recycle mode on a speaker? Oh because it's a WiFi connected, smart speaker that collects and stores data on me.

We recently read about Apple devices being bricked in the recycling process because of Find My, but that makes sense, because it's a personal computer or phone where I intentionally store personal data. And I'd much rather err on the side of that data not getting out.

But seriously Sonos, this is dumb. To intentionally brick devices that could be perfectly functional for someone else is honestly bad for the planet and business.

Glad I've never bought a Sonos and now I never will.

</comment><comment><USER64> Sounds like an opportunity to score some decent physical hardware for a song. It could become a brand new hacker brand. "Noson". Fix the device via jag to talk to an open source server like an own cloud plugin.

</comment><comment><USER65> The dumbest thing is that if I can sell my old Sonos rather than trash them in recycle mode then I am _more_ likely to upgrade sooner since the sale of my used hardware can also help subsidize the upgrade regardless of whether Sonos offers me credit or not. And now Sonos has an additional user of their product (which in turn markets the product and is likely to build loyalty assuming the product isn't shit) _and_ a new hardware sale. I am willing to bet Sonos needs both growth of their user base and needs to demonstrate that some core percentage of their customers regularly upgrade on a ~5yr purchase cycle. And it doesn't actually cost Sonos anything (relative to the BOM for a device) to handle the compute for the extra user so it's not like the person upgrading is making off with anything of additional value to Sonos. So take the environmental concerns out of the picture: this is just short sighted nooby business.

This smells like some program cooked up by a hot shot MBA type that the executive team trusts to tweak the business because they don't shut up about needing to focus on type of numbers investors care about. Never mind they don't know the first thing about building a decent product. And to make it worse they're probably actually convinced they're helping the environment.

</comment><comment><USER66> Light bulb manufacturers goes to great extents to artifically shorten lifestyle of bulbs.

I adjusted to that by keeping bulb receipts. Then buying new ones to replace failing ones. Then coming 3 weeks later to get refund or credit for failed ones.

Putting pressure on retailers to stop carrying crappy products.

I know it's not exactly audio stuff but manufacturers engaging in misleading to the point of fraudulent practices need to be dealt with.

</comment><comment><USER65> I wonder what's going to happen after they get a bunch of, "my kid turned on recycle mode now I have a brick plz halp" support calls...

<comment><USER67> Probably the same thing that happened, and mostly in the same frequency as happened, 6 months ago. This article highlights the shittiness of Sonos's "implementation" of a recycle program, not the customer's experience or results (discounted purchases of new products) of initiating the program.

</comment></comment><comment><USER68> Why is that not incredibly illegal?

<comment><USER69> Because that's not going to be argued like that in court.

It may not be _that_ hard to say that's its for:

\- Preventing "counterfeiting" as in people salvaging their PCBs to put on "rogue" devices.

\- Protecting their brand name as a "rogue" device may misrepresent what a proper sonos product actually is.

\- Preventing misuse of the account that was registered on the device, hence protecting their customers personal data.

\- Customers only use this mode when a product is not repairable.

That's the power of having a strong legal departement, pretty much anything can be argued even when everyone knows the real intent. When such things are done properly, it's really hard to prove the intent hence, the risk is pretty low of being fined anything.

<comment><USER70> Customers can't use this mode when the product is not repairable in most cases as the SOC which is the only irreparable component needs to be fully functional.

If your device cannot boot you can't put it into recycle mode.

This mode is designed for one thing only and that is to disable perfectly working devices.

IIRC the device also needs to be within its warranty period for you to use recycle mode.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER71> There was never any appeal to me in a speaker which is so tightly coupled with software. I don't see those still working in 10+ years. Whereas there's plenty of old hifi setups still being used. The fact that the software has an intentional bricking mechanism in it just makes this more apparent.

</comment><comment><USER72> Not super familiar with Sonos, but why do they 'need' to connect to a server in order to work at all? Do they bundle in some kind of subscription streaming service or something?

I always thought they were just wireless speakers that I used locally on my own network...

</comment><comment><USER14> I experienced a similar thing when I helped a friend install LineageOS on their bootlooped Android phone.

Apparently, this process would have been 10x easier if they had switched on "OEM unlocking" in the Developer Options setting (which you can't do from the boot menu, recovery menu or via adb), which is off by default for a very stupid reason. We were successful in the end, but it was a LOT of hassle.

So, when you switch on "OEM unlocking", you get a warning that it's "for protection against thieves". Like, a thief would steal your phone and it's encrypted and locked, but because "OEM unlocking" is off they can't simply wipe it and reinstall to re-sell, or something. So to them it's a brick and therefore they wouldn't have stolen your phone I guess. Except if they spend some effort they can totally cleanly reinstall the thing, it just takes more steps.

Maybe I'm missing some part here about how this "OEM unlocking" option supposedly protects against theft, but for me it was a simple sum. Number of times my phone got stuck in a boot loop: 3, number of times my phone got stolen: 0. So I set that to unlocked, now I'll have an easier time if I ever mess up my phone again.

The only real reason I can think of is that they WANT your phone to stay bricked/bootlooped when it's bricked, and be unable to fix and repair it. It has nothing to do with theft, it's just a way to make sure the device stays disabled when it's disabled, and to make you buy another new phone.

Additionally, I got nothing but happy comments about LineageOS from my friend. You can really tell in the feel of the entire system the difference between what it means to be a user (normal software) or to be the product (like in Android or any of the Google/Facebook/Apple systems). Just by what options you're given and the fact that applications actually behave _at your service_ instead of nagging you while you're trying to accomplish a task. I'm not really happy about how Android 9 is running on my moto-g6, so I think I'm gonna make that switch soon as well. You don't even need to root the phone to do this, but it's a choice (I think I'm going to root it though).

<comment><USER48> I got hit by this same issue. We had a few spare phones at work in a draw and I wanted to give them to friends in need of a phone. Had permission from the company but no one knew who owned them or what the password was. I did the manual factory reset from the recovery but was hit by this "security" feature.

I eventually managed to track down the original owner and had them unlock the devices. If I hadn't, these phones would be ewaste.

What bothers me is the solution is simple, when a manual factory reset is done, have the phone ping google and start a 1 week countdown. Google can then email the original owner and ask if they have had their phone stolen. If they reply yes then the phone is locked. If they reply no or have no response then the phone unlocks.

<comment><USER14> Apparently you can still wipe and reset and reinstall the phones even with "OEM unlock" switched off. At least, we managed to pull it off. But it took about half a day of trying and retrying random things from threads on forum.xda-developers.com. Sorry I can't be more specific, it becomes a bit of a blur after the 5th time :-p

<comment><USER48> If you do a reset from recovery and not the settings app it locks it down with android factory reset protection and the phone is bricked until the original owner enters their google password.

<comment><USER14> Oh that might be it then, they still had their google account (or the TFA backup codes printed). Either way it seems sensible to do the OEM unlocking, just in case.

Still stupid that it can brick the phone if you don't have that password.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER73> IIRC Logitech used to do this with warranty replacements on Harmony remotes—don't know if they still do. It made purchasing one used risky.

<comment><USER74> They did this, but the blacklist only prevents the remote from getting updates from the cloud.. it does not brick the device, and it can continue to use its current config. Or at least that's how it used to be.

I have a harmony that I bought in 2009-ish, and the provided "batteries included" exploded in the first few days of ownership and made a huge mess. I wrote them a complaint, and they sent me a new remote. When I activated the new one, the old one stopped taking updates.

Amusingly, there is an open source tool that can pull a config from one harmony and flash it to another. The replacement was actually slightly inferior (mushy keys), and so I'd program the replacement, back up the config, and restore it to the original.

</comment></comment><comment><USER75> If the devices become useless, how is this any different from Sonos just offering customers "trade-in" value for their old devices (like for used cars) and then throwing them out? Just that the device doesn't get physically mailed to Sonos?

Like if you think it's just spiritually bad to throw working things out, fine. But how is Sonos doing wrong by the customer?

<comment><USER12> Used cars don't get thrown out when they're traded in. And it's not "spiritually bad," it's actively destructive to the environment. Manufacturing things requires a great deal of energy.

<comment><USER9> Well, there was this, fortunately short-lived... [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_Allowance_Rebate_System](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_Allowance_Rebate_System)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER76> I have a sonos speaker at my cabin and while the audio isn't bad the spotty wifi coverage and the choppy audio that keeps dropping out when I listen to Audible at 1.25 to 1.5 speed is annoying.

It just isn't a very good product in my eyes. I have cheap Bluetooth speakers that work much better.

So I would be interested in "upcycling" the Sonos with new innards.

Time to watch some teardown videos to see what can be done.

</comment><comment><USER77> Is there no way to fake the Sonos server and reauthenticate the bricked device offline or tear it down and bypass any logic chips and get at the speaker hardware directly, create an analog 3.5mm jack input and play music from it manually?

Would love to see the folks at hackaday or somewhere else exploit the recycle mode hardware.

</comment><comment><USER78> Dear lazy web, is there something like the sonos that is open source that makes the same synchronized sound field (I dont own a sonos, I assume that is what they do)? I believe I could hack something up using an ESP32, a microphone and/or a GNSS receiver, but does this already exist?

<comment><USER79> Logitech media server. Run LMS on one pi or a docker container, and then onother pi zeros run Squeezelite. The entirety of the installation on the receiving devices is ` sudo apt install squeezelite`.

It has been game changing for me.

</comment></comment><comment><USER80> To piggyback off this week's hate of MBAs, it seems likely some idiot MBA determined that the company was losing exorbitant amounts of money from secondhand sales of their devices such that they had to implement this ridiculous initiative.

</comment><comment><USER81> Im just reminded that the fashion industry does somewhat the same.. they litterally set fire to unsold clothes, to protect the brand and margins.

</comment><comment><USER82> >From what our eBay guy can tell, the bricking isn't even in hardware; you can't recover it if you're good with JTAG, because it's blacklisted as "recycled" on their servers.

Yet another reason to never own anything "smart".

I wonder how difficult would it be to strip out the Sonos smart crap from these speakers and connect a Raspberry W to the preamp?

</comment><comment><USER7> I wish they would sell them at a reduced price just as powered speakers, to people that would just like to use them as powered speakers. No support provided, just a website where you could click and order.

There are a number of people that would be more than happy and able to repurpose an old Sonus speaker that no longer operated as a Sonus speaker.

</comment><comment><USER83> I found out about the perils of depending on specific apps, cloud or something like that when gave a toy to girlfriend and now we can't play anymore because the app wasn't updated to the latest Android.

Literally we would tell the manufacturer to introduce it in specific places to tell us if it is usefull without remote control

</comment><comment><USER84> Best reason not to buy a Sonos product.

<comment><USER85> Or mod it

</comment></comment><comment><USER86> This seems like it's for a trade-up/upgrade program, which would traditionally be:

1) Customer boxes up device.

2) Customer mails device to manufacturer.

3) Manufacturer hits it with a hammer, ensuring that they don't have to compete with their own used device after the customer has been given a credit for it.

So, instead, we have:

A) Customer starts bricking process.

B) Customer recycles device locally.

C) Local electronics recycler hits device with a hammer because it has self bricked, ensuring that the manufacturer doesn't have to compete with their own used device after the customer has been given a credit for it.

So we've removed disposable packaging and fuel for shipping. It seems like a net win for the environment.

They're going to do their trade in program. They can either do it the traditional way or do it this way, having a slightly lower adverse environmental impact. Leaving the device functional is not on the menu, and acting like it is is intentionally obtuse.

</comment><comment><USER87> Yes it's a waste. I also find it genuinely funny. Not sure why. Just tickles me.

</comment><comment><USER88> If there's one company I'd bet on being acquired next year it's probably Sonos. Even with a 30-50% premium it's a small buy for any of the big cos who want to increase market share in home device market.

</comment><comment><USER89> What an absolute and utter waste.

On the other hand: I'd rather like to get hold of a bricked Sonos.

I'd stick a Raspberry Pi, DAC and speaker amp inside it. Be free of the shackles of the cloud, my child!

</comment><comment><USER90> This is a common tactic in America's industrial products.

<comment><USER91> Oh believe you me, after decades of this kind of crap us non-Americans have become quite cautious about buying American products!

</comment></comment><comment><USER92> I'm very much DIY guy and hate it when companies block users from doing whatever they want with their equipment, but this is a special case. User gets the discount from Sonos for recycling the old equipment, and thus user doesn't own it anymore. It belongs to Sonos now as they bought it back, and of course they don't want it resold half-price by 3rd party, it's a competition to their new products. To me it seems perfectly legit, as long as you get a discount for that. And the equipment can still be recycled and resold for parts, they don't block that.

<comment><USER93> It makes sense for Sonos. It's also environmentally terrible.

</comment></comment><comment><USER94> Step 1: convince your customers to brick their own devices. Step 2: buy back now worthless, and thus cheap, devices. Step 3: unbrick, resell, profit

<comment><USER95> If they did step two it wouldn't be nearly as bad.

<comment><USER94> Well, you'd have to do it secretly, buy them back from the recyclers

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER96> Ooooo what a sustainable behaviour... Next step is to schedule Recycle mode. Then we will have to hack the gadget not to do that. My friend she is using Sony android phone from 2013, she disabled google apps long ago, I did some things, and for average user like she is, it is perfect, fast and responsive, Whapp, Viber, calls, camera...spending money on travelling, not on manufacturer's jerking-gadgets. I presume Sony and other manufacturers don't like us to much. Frankly, I don't give a damn...

</comment><comment><USER97> Sonos speaker owner here. Has there been any efforts in reverse engineering how the devices work and having an open source firmware?

</comment><comment><USER98> Oh man, I would absolutely take one of these off anyone's hands if they have one to hack on. Would pay for shipping.

</comment><comment><USER99> I'll be happy to flash a build of Snapcast on my Sonos speakers and do away with their software for good.

</comment><comment><USER100> Is this a violation of US resale rights?

<comment><USER101> Why would it be? It was done in exchange for a 30% discount. Scummy or not, it has clear elements of a contract.

</comment></comment><comment><USER102> > Someone recycled five of these Sonos Play:5 speakers. They're worth $250 > each, used, and these are in good condition. They could easily be reused.

Then the owner should have sold (given?) them as-is, rather than trying to double dip by telling Sonos they were going to recycle them for parts (for which they pay you $120) then not doing so.

<comment><USER103> The owner did try to recycle them for parts, by giving them to the recycling centre.

<comment><USER102> I now see what's going on...the OP claims to be running an e-recycling center but actually takes "donations" and sells them for a profit instead.

<comment><USER104> My understanding has always been that e-recycling centers have to pay to responsibly dispose of the junk they collect / are given, and they fund this by sorting through it for any equipment that can be refurbished or cannibalised and sold for re-use. There's nothing nefarious about this.

<comment><USER103> Me too. I'm dropping stuff off at a recycling centre because I have no use for it anymore. If they can find a use for it, that makes me happy. It's the same reason I'd rather donate stuff to charity or drop it off at a thrift store for them to sell than throw it in the trash.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER105> sonos is the worst. They sell speakers without an audio input (last time i checked)... and can only be controlled/used by sonos software... homey dont play that. but i am disillusioned with itunes as well... wah

</comment><comment><USER106> That's why I prefer buying hardware and service (if any) unbundled.

</comment><comment><USER107> As a programmer, if someone asked me to do this, I would walk out.

</comment><comment><USER108> I am an audio engineer and this is going to be a long thread. TLDR; I hate companies like Sonos. They add no value to people who know about audio. You see, everything about speakers is really simple. From the way they work to the way they're made. There's really just 4 pieces to make a speaker system. The speaker, power supply, amplifier and a pre-amplifier to modify the sound (eg. DSP, Equalizer, etc.)

That's why if you search on the used market today, you'll still see equipment from companies like Aiwa/Sony from the 80s and 90s simply because these speakers can be re-used even now as you can connect anything to them before the pre-amplifier and they'll still reproduce your source (iPod/TV/Computer/whatever). I posses a 40 year old Aiwa system that still functions flawlessly today like brand new. This is also possible today because speakers themselves can last so much longer. More than 40 years as you can tell.

All companies like Sonos do is add just another layer before the pre-amplifier stage - which is to make the speaker "smart". This is usually all those wifi chips and bluetooth and Google assistant and what not. This is the proprietary part of their system. Normally, you are able to throw away this proprietary part and still use the speaker system. But, in pursuit of more sales, to reduce the lifespan of a perfectly fine speaker system to simply increase revenues is the most hardcore, cruel thing one can do.

Sonos' speakers are so bad that many models aren't even serviceable. Meaning, you can't open them like you could on those Aiwa's and Sony's and put them back together. Once taken apart, they're useless. They use tons of glue, proprietary shaped screws sometimes even wire the speakers in such a way that they'll damage the units if you try to take them off. They purposely do this so their speakers can't be used anymore without damaging the appearance.

That's why I will any day buy a mediocre music system from Sony or LG than buy trash like Sonos. First of all, I know the quality of components they use is not that great. They use ordinary stamped steel, sometimes plastic baskets for their driver units as opposed to high quality aluminium construction. Paper diaphragms too. Their units don't even have proper crossover circuitry in some models. And besides, the drivers they use are actually based off rebranded generic Chinese, just tweaked a bit. They're very good at fooling people pretending to be an audiophile company. In reality, they're not even half as close to the stuff from the 80's and 90's.

So, having ranted this, there's literally no reason to support such terrible ethics backed company simply for the sake of their profits. Fuck Sonos and get a Sony (or whatever else you like that doesn't do this). This is not just for the environment, but to set a full stop to such terrible practices. The audio land is already so full of snake oil already that the last thing we need is another snake oil sales man like Sonos.

</comment><comment><USER109> If you buy a LAN or WAN connected speaker you're a dumb guy. No exceptions.

</comment><comment><USER110> Smdh. Consumerism at it's finest wastefulness.

</comment><comment><USER111> Gone Missing: mindless rage, scandal, foreboding, nausea and disgust at what the future may bring if a trend is not stopped in its tracks.

Emerging, Rising: apologist arguments that equate compromise and degeneration of tools made out of a sense of personal cleverness, finding that one-use case where the trend might 'save the planet' or at least present it as such, winning the debate among like minds.

<comment><USER111> It's getting to where if I fail to get downvoted here, I wonder if I've stated my point clearly.</comment></comment>


A Night and a Day in Tonopah, Nevada - <AUTHOR> http://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/a-night-and-a-day-in-tonopah-nevada <comment><USER2> Having driven through this area a few times, and also on Highways 93 and 50 ("The Loneliest Road in America"), I have to say that my favorite parts of Nevada are far from Vegas and Reno. The emptiness is quite wonderful.

<comment><USER3> I've always wanted to pull off the highway in the middle of Nevada and just go wandering into the wilderness. Sadly, I've always been on my way somewhere and felt that I couldn't spare any time. Someday I would like to have a more spontaneous approach to life.

<comment><USER4> Also I imagine that police would see your car and investigate, (with best intentions) interrupting any solitude. Perhaps if you left a note saying that you were going for a walk, had ample water, weren't out of your mind, and the time/date you intended to return.

<comment><USER2> There are no police out there, though. At least, I've never seen any.

<comment><USER4> I was speaking mostly of general highway stops. Pulled over on a road in Nevada or one of the neighbouring states at 10-11pm so my wife could breastfeed our daughter. Car pulled up behind us and we had an initial nervous reaction before it turned out to be a cop just making sure we weren't having car trouble.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I've been through the area several times.

My favourite place is Great Basin National Park [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Basin_National_Park](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Basin_National_Park)

It's the EDIT: (one of the) least visited national park. And if you're going during the new moon, there's a glorious view of the milky way because of the lack of light pollution (one of the least light polluted places in the United States)

<comment><USER6> Not quite the least visited but close. If you only consider the continental parks, North Cascades and Chaco NHP have fewer visitors. Several of the Alaskan parks also have fewer visitors but they are much harder to get to. Still, its a beautiful park to visit. Sort of a Yosemite without the people.

<comment><USER5> Appreciate the correction, I thought I read that somewhere but I guess I was wrong.

The North Cascades are beautiful too. God's country up there.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I would caution those planning travel through Nevada that predatory policing and exceptonally aggressive law enforcement appears par for the course.

Despite the appeal of open desert, and several past travels through the region, I've had exceptionally poor experiences, particularly on US Highway 50, and Austin, NV, in particular.

Avoid.

Being threatened with violence and bench warrants for traffic stops, and the reasonable precaution of _not_ stopping in the middle of desert rather than a mile down the road in a well-lit, inhabited area, is beyond the pale.

The LEO's stated concerns during our encounter for _his_ safety whilst being observed by those he is sworn to protect and serve suggests a considerable failure of governance.

<comment><USER8> I've had two encounters with cops in NV on the motorcycle (can't say that I've driven a car in NV), one county and one state. County was outside Ely. I'd swear I was outside the town limits and twisted it back up to 70mph. Nope, not out of town yet, and the speed limit's still 40mph. We had a nice conversation about the local area while we waited on the radio license check. Check came back clean, and I was sent off with a "long stretch of lonely road ahead, try to keep the speed reasonable."

Second encounter was right around Tonopah. Coming to a hill crest, Valentine One radar detector goes nuts, and a state trooper pops over the hill coming the other way as I am doing about 90mph (don't recall the limit, but it ain't anywhere near 90). He hits the lights. Fuck. Then, oddly, the lights go out. As I roll off the throttle in preparation for a nice Q&A on why he might have pulled me over, I check the mirrors and the cop's Tahoe is still rolling the other way. Oookay, then, hint taken.

So I'll see your anecdata and raise you one. I don't know your story, but at a minimum I well and truly deserved a ticket for encounter #2, and didn't even have to stop. Doing 30 over for #1 was a mistake, but I was still guilty as hell and traveling at "go to jail for reckless" speed. And I _never_ obey the limit in NV when I'm outside of town.

I've touched motorcycle wheels in every continental U. S. state, and NV is the least of my worries for cops. YMMV, and it obviously does.

<comment><USER7> Mine was specific to the Austin area. I've met good and bad cops. This was definitely a bad cop.

Every opportunity he had to make things better, he made them worse.

(I stopped digging early and fast, I'm not stupid.)

Much of the situation was the context and interaction of the stop itself. This kid wasn't doing himself any favours.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Glad to see they included the Goldfield Hotel, just down the road a ways. It gets bought every 15 years or so by a different out-of-town property magnate, who announces that it will be fully restored.

The Goldfield's new owner never makes much headway, but the hotel does get opened up briefly for visitors. It is a very freaky experience to walk its corridors. I did so in 2004, and wrote this piece about it: [http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB110238920487392930](http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB110238920487392930)

</comment><comment><USER4> I'm from Australia but have visited the US several times. The country has so many great stretches of grim Americana - areas that you are surprised support life and enterprise now or in the past.

In California, there's the stretch from Palm Springs down past Bombay Beach to Salvation Mountain (both interesting to see). Between Joshua Tree NP and Mojave NP is the Needles Highway, Wonder Valley, areas with messages written in colourful rocks on the side of the road.

Arizona has some interesting roads too with remnants of road-side stalls.

</comment><comment><USER10> When I saw Tonopah, I assumed the article was going to be about weapons testing. There are various ranges around Tonopah for testing dangerous things, up to and including nuclear weapons.

</comment><comment><USER11> I spent a day and a night in Tonopah, NV, in the clown motel, but not by choice. It was a story-packed 24 hours. I never thought I'd see someone writing about being a tourist there though. Tonopah's economic collapse is written starkly across a landscape of rusted out industrial equipment, as well as the flat affects of the locals. It's the kind of town you nervously wait to leave while you're filling up your gas.

</comment><comment><USER12>
      >> Tonopah (pronounced TOE-nuh-PAH) is located halfway between and .

If anyone else is missing the locations on their page too... interestingly, my ad blocker removes the anchor links labeled "Las Vegas" and "Reno" because the link destinations funnel through a doubleclick server.

<comment><USER13> It was blocked on mine too, thanks for posting a reason, I had assumed it was just bad editing. I have ABP but also have a "safe" hosts file[0] that blocks a lot of stuff like that.

[0]-[http://someonewhocares.org/hosts/](http://someonewhocares.org/hosts/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> When I saw Tonopah the first words in my head were Dallas Alice.

</comment><comment><USER15> How is one supposed to watch the videos? A VR headset?

<comment><USER5> With a non-mobile browser.

You can pan with wasd control keys.</comment></comment>