Does Diversity Punish Asians, Poor Whites and Others? - <AUTHOR> http://www.mindingthecampus.com/originals/2010/07/how_diversity_punishes_asians.html

<comment><USER2> It is mathematically impossible to privilege one group without "disprivileging" another in a zero-sum game like college admissions. The question of whether affirmative action "punishes" some people isn't even interesting, the question is a borderline-tautological "yes". The question is, is that what we want to do? And even if historically the answer was "yes", is it _still_ what we want to do? And what do we want to do in the future?

I'm not commenting on the answer to those questions, subtly or otherwise. (Except inasmuch that some people would rather we not ask them at all and just take various answers as axiomatically true without examination.)

<comment><USER3> In a similar spirit:

It is mathematically impossible to privilege one group without "disprivileging" another in a zero-sum game like college admissions. The question of whether alumni-preference "punishes" some people isn't even interesting, the question is a borderline-tautological "yes". The question is, is that what we want to do? And even if historically the answer was "yes", is it still what we want to do? And what do we want to do in the future?

I'm not commenting on the answer to those questions, subtly or otherwise. (Except inasmuch that some people would rather we not ask them at all and just take various answers as axiomatically true without examination.)

(just for reference, around the time of the supreme court cases re: Michigan Law School, alumni preference was weighted at least as strongly as race amongst schools that used quantitative point systems for admissions)

<comment><USER4>
      The question of whether alumni-preference "punishes" some people
      isn't even interesting, the question is a borderline-tautological "yes".
      The question is, is that what we want to do?

I think we want to just stop it. Why is it even a question? I understand it is not that easy to do, but certainly easier (and less dangerous for participants) than stopping the segregation was, no? I understand there are important differences between alumni-based preferences and "race"-based preferences (such as whether the State and Federal institutions need to be involved etc), but I think these only work towards making it easier.

EDIT: quote format.

<comment><USER3> I agree. I think federal funding, scholarship, loans, and research dollars should be withheld from all schools with alumni preference rules going forward. Period.

Most arguments against removing alumni preference only apply when you look at one school in isolation and simply disappear when you consider all schools removing them at once.

(Federal non-profit tax-emempt status should probably be included in my list of things-that-should-disappear-unless alumni-preference-is-dropped, but I haven't thought seriously about the likely objections (religious schools etc.))

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> There have been many formulations of the root problem in such cases, Campbell's formulation fits best here.

Campbell's law: The more any quantitative social indicator is used for social decision-making, the more subject it will be to corruption pressures and the more apt it will be to distort and corrupt the social processes it is intended to monitor.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campbells_Law>

</comment><comment><USER6> I often wondered what psychological effects these diversity programs have on those who are supposedly benefiting from them. Do they walk around campus thinking to themselves "I'm here because I'm black"? This goes double for those minority students who would've been accepted without preferential treatment.

<comment><USER7> I think that a lot of them prefer to be in the school and wonder if they are there because they are black than not be there at all.

<comment><USER6> Oh I'm sure this is true on some level but it must be difficult to have to constantly deal with the assumption that you're there because of your race. It's just another level of scrutiny, and I guess racism, which is ironically created by the program meant to destroy it.

<comment><USER7> It's about the same as constantly having to deal with the assumption you are there for geographical reasons, because you speak with a southern accent.

<comment><USER6> Yes but there are few (if any) universities that have a "southern accent" based affirmative action policy. If such a policy existed it would exactly the same.

<comment><USER7> All the schools have geographical quotas. They don't just allow people from one region to come in, no matter how great they are.

Was there not a problem with one of those schools where 40% where jewish when admission was only based on test-scores?

<comment><USER6> _All the schools have geographical quotas_

Sure but not different admissions criteria based on geography. You still have to meet the criteria regardless. Not so for race based preference systems which are well known for relaxing standards to achieve the desired racial balance.

If a particular school is 40% Jewish and those students are all there because they met the admissions criteria then so be it. It's absurd to create an elite admissions policy and then create preference programs for designated races. I'd much rather the standards were lowered until the desired racial balance occurred organically. However, universities seem to want it both ways.

<comment><USER7> How about we just cut out the crap and make admission based on scores only. This will of course mean that your chance of getting in will become really, really low, unless you were jewish or asian.

All these people who cry out for affirmative action to be removed, I will see them write two pages about why it should not be there, but they will never advocate the really fair solution, because it will make them extremlely unlikely to ever get into the schools.

What you are saying is pretty silly, by the way. An elite school like that is admitting perhaps 50 black people. Are you saying of all the applications from black people they received, they did not find 50 that met the cut-off mark? That's a bit unlikely, is it not?

The score of the blacks may have been below the average of the other admitees, but they were not BAD. It's an elite school, they will not put dunces in there, and there are certainly enough black applicants with the appropriate scores.

If you want a score based system, then say so and accept that whites will be a tiny minority in those schools. But don't try to have this hybrid thing that keeps the whites in and the blacks out.

Either scores and nothing else, or let the schools decide. Choose one, and lobby for that, and not AGAINST affirmative action.

<comment><USER6> _All these people who cry out for affirmative action to be removed, I will see them write two pages about why it should not be there, but they will never advocate the really fair solution, because it will make them extremlely unlikely to ever get into the schools._

But this is essentially how admissions works for whites and asians. They look at your scores if you make the cutoff your in (barring sports scholarships or legacies which I'm also against).

 _Are you saying of all the applications from black people they received, they did not find 50 that met the cut-off mark? That's a bit unlikely, is it not?_

Then why do they have different admissions standards for minority applicants? If it were possible for minority applicants to meet the normal admissions standards affirmative action programs would be unnecessary.

 _If you want a score based system, then say so and accept that whites will be a tiny minority in those schools_

I want a score based system. I'm against affirmative action precisely because it is a hybrid system. Whites and Asians are held to one standard, minorities to another. As I've said before, if you want to admit lower scoring minority applicants adjust the general admissions standards accordingly so they can get in.

<comment><USER7> You have still not made it clear. Do you REALLY want a score-only based systems that is going to clearly favour people from one small area of the U.S, or do you just not want minorities to get in easier?

What do you think of the fact that score based systems will lead to a very one-track kind of thinking process coming out of those schools?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Does it even matter what race someone puts down on those? On the last US census I put my race as human, although technically (and visually) I am white, but my background is such a mutt, or not traced, that it doesn't really matter anyway. On top of that I grew up in a city thats over 60% (south Texas) Hispanic. That will change my views to be more "Hispanic like" vs someone with the exact same racial qualities living in, say, NY. Hell when I go to home depot they say things in English then Spanish on the intercoms.

It also seems lately that half the people I meet are half Mexican and half white. What should they put? Every one I have asked puts Hispanic because in general they get more that way.

I guess it comes down to an obviously flawed system. Possibly "diversify" based on income, or location over race.

<comment><USER7> I'm not sure you get the point of 'diversity'. The U.S has a class-based system that is very very strongly correlated with skin-color. Dark skin -> lower class, worker. White skin -> upper class, college educated. The system is there to spread dark skin across all strata of society, breaking the stereotype that a particular skin color belongs in a particular lower strata.

<comment><USER6> _The system is there to spread dark skin across all strata of society, breaking the stereotype that a particular skin color belongs in a particular lower strata._

The problem with this though is that whites have to pretend that the system doesn't exist for it work. If dark-skinned students are allowed in because of a well known preference program the stereotype is in fact reinforced.

<comment><USER7> In the short term it is reinforced. But on the longer term, you create a wide array of dark skinned college educated people who have college level jobs. College educated tend to breed college educated, and family/relatives will tend to be college educated.

So in the medium term, the current state that the black community is in will change towards a more intellectual and educated one.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I wonder if anyone has ever seriously proposed adding a rule to the NBA (US professional basketball league) that requires a minimum of say 75% of the players to be white? In order that the diversity of the team more accurately reflect the racial composition of the US, and to be more fair to white people. Also require that say 12% of all swimming teams are black, and so on.

Just food for thought, not serious proposals.

<comment><USER7> How about making the elite institutions ONLY merit based. Then it would become 60% jewish and 30% asian, 8% white and the remaining 2% shared by the other minorities. Is that okay with you?

<comment><USER9> It's hard to be opposed to merit-only requirements. It's not clear to me why we have to distort anything if we truly want to live in a world that is blind to color, gender, age, etc.

can you imagine if MLK's famous speech was this instead:

"I want my children to be judged not by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. Unless applying for college. Or grants. Or aid from the government. Or (...)"

<comment><USER7> Then say that. When you make your arguments, don't say "let's get rid of affirmative action". Say "let's make the admission process merit-based only".

Of course, you realise what you're saying then? You're saying you want 30% of all students in all elite colleges to likely come from new york. That's going to create a very monotonous, one-track kind of thought coming out of those places. Those schools that are currently the best in the world, will start producing similar thinking people with little exposure to diversity of thought or diversity of individuals.

Is that what you want? You are willing to fundamentally change the characters of these schools to meet some criteria of 'fair' that basically only uses a single attribute to judge people?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> This is one of the taboo subjects on the Internet where it's possible to say something that is factually true and yet you can be downvoted into oblivion if it is "not PC", so watch out folks.

</comment><comment><USER10> So in order to not be screwed by the system, should my hapa kids self identify as asian or white?

<comment><USER11> Try to pass them off as Hispanic.

<comment><USER10> funny you mention that as many asian/white mixes end up looking very Hispanic

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> For what it's worth, this data is from 1997. (E.g., see table 3.4 from the book being discussed, _No longer separate, not yet equal: race and class in elite college admission_ , by Espenshade et al.)

Also - and this is not exactly a problem, just a methodological feature to be aware of - it appears that they produced their models by aggregating the data together across schools.

</comment><comment><USER13> > an estimated 40-50 percent of (students in Universities) categorized as > black are Afro-Caribbean or African immigrants, or the children of such > immigrants

That's interesting. I'm curious what the cause for this is.

<comment><USER7> That's because the people from those areas did not face the travails that american blacks went through. I believe that that slavery thing and back-of- the-bus thing 40 years ago, and no-blacks-on-mtv 20 years ago left its mark.

The immigrants are coming in not feeling like they are the bottom of the barrel.

<comment><USER4> I suspect the reason is closer to what you wrote in the second paragraph than the first paragraph. Personal point of view, longing for education and hard work may be accounting for most of the immigrants' success, and vice versa. This attitude, imho, does stem (perhaps to a very large extent) from the racial situation in the USA before the 1960s, however, it is not its direct consequence and, moreover, that situation was not unique to the US (especially if we go back to "that slavery thing", widespread in the West Indies and indeed around the world, unfortunately).

Incidentally, while I appear to mostly disagree with you on this issue, I had to upvote you back to neutral (1 point) because I thought your comment was legitimate and thoughtful and did not deserve a downvote.

<comment><USER7> Votes don't matter, doing the right thing is not a popularity contest.

People who are raised in a lower class from which there is no breaking out become apathetic. In the west-indies or in Africa, even though they were poor, they could always become rich. They could always become upper class just by working hard and making money.

In the U.S, this was impossible until very very recently, because just by being black, you could not be upper class. If MTV would not play black music, then what white man would say 'sir' to a black man in the 80s?

When there is no opportunity for you to advance, you become apathetic and resigned to your fate. It's difficult to work hard when you have already been told you'll never get promoted.

Immigrant blacks don't see the ceiling. As more immigrant blacks come in, the american black children are looking up to these people, and the attitudes are changing. But this is a slow process, and would be accelerated by increasing the average educational level of the American black.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> It is surprising, and disappointing, that in 2010 we still need to have a conversation about whether diversity is important. I'm especially surprised to see this come up on Hacker News, rather than some fringe site.

This debate has been going on for 40 years now. I would think by now its been established that diversity has importance in its own right, not just in what it does for individuals who are included on campus for non-traditional reasons, but also for all the other people on campus. Certainly, diversity on campus is important for everyone who aspires to any kind of leadership position, since any leader today will be leading in a diverse environment.

<comment><USER15> If Diversity is such a strength, how come the homogeneous Chinese, Japanese, and Indians (ok, there is some diversity in India, but only due to a high population over a wide area) are kicking our "diverse" butts in so many fields?

<comment><USER7> America is very diverse, and it's the number 1 economy in the world, even though a place like china has 4 times as many people.

Europe, which is pretty diverse, is also massively successful.

<comment><USER16> Scandinavia?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Come on guys. Let's imagine a hypothetical situation where blacks are dumber than anyone else. Blacks are ALREADY at the bottom of the socio-economic classes, they are already responsible for a majority of crime, what EXACTLY do you think would be the result of a fair admission process?

These people who are at the bottom will stay even more firmly entrenched at the bottom, will commit more crime and continue to justify the stereotypes.

If you believe that blacks are dumber than anyone else (like the linked article), then you have to support affirmative action, otherwise you are setting up a society segregated by intelligence, which will also directly correspond to skin color.

So blacks will always be at the bottom, and people of black skin will automatically fall into that category with very little chance of getting out, even if they are clever, as there will be many people justifying the opposite stereotype.

Imagine all colleges had 5% less space for students. That's the only effect of affirmative action. If you want to campaign for something, then campaign that 5% more students should be taken in - one for every student who got in as a result of affirmative action. That's a win-win.

<comment><USER17> _Imagine all colleges had 5% less space for students. That's the only effect of affirmative action._

It isn't, for the same reason that having one drinking fountain in twenty marked Whites Only has salience far in excess of a 5% decrease in the supply of drinking fountains.

<comment><USER7> So what you are saying is that discriminating in some way has a strong effect on the perception of society in general?

Yes, there is this theoretical moral debate about what is right and what is wrong, but the real effect of doing what you say is right, would result in universities of only asians and whites, and the blacks mostly doing manual labour.

Is THAT right?

<comment><USER17> Affirmative action matters for the most selective colleges in the United States but very little for your average state school, where there is little to no selection pressure. (It is the public policy of the United States that you can get a tertiary degree -- and we will pay for it -- if you have a pulse.) There are many doctors, lawyers, engineers, teachers, etc etc, who do not have a degree from Harvard/MIT/etc. The hypothetical, exaggerated dystopian universe in which the most selective ~25 institutions drop to ~2% black doesn't resemble an Orwell novel.

<comment><USER18> Affirmative action and the problems discovered by this study don't matter much for MIT. MIT almost certainly wasn't part of the study, doesn't discriminate against Asians, recruits white working class men from the Midwest when they're underrepresented (and takes into account people's lack of opportunities in general). It probably doesn't discriminate against Christians, those who were in JROTC or farming organizations (I may have too little data to be sure about these categories).

MIT's big advantages have to stem from it being a less intense version of CalTech WRT math and physics. It simply can't afford to admit anyone who can't do the work (and there's a _lot_ of self-selection in the applicant pool), doesn't do much with legacies (once again, they have to be able to do the work) and doesn't take many students from "fancy prep schools". So it's got lots of room for these students who are heavily discriminated against by the other elite schools in the nation.

And for science, at least, CalTech and MIT really have to make a big difference for those students. Everything in those fields depends on professor recommendations (getting into a good grad school and what you do after getting your Ph.D. and postdoc(s)). No matter how good you are, if your recommendations are from professors the targets have never heard of, you're ... not in a good posture.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Come on.

>Asians, unlike blacks and Hispanics, receive no boost in admissions.

Just not true.

>The admissions disadvantage was greatest for those in leadership positions in these activities or those winning honors and awards. "Being an officer or winning awards" for such career-oriented activities as junior ROTC, 4-H, or Future Farmers of America, say Espenshade and Radford..."

SHOCK! Blue collar "career oriented" awards don't count for institutions who primarily push people into white collar organizations?

This reads like it was written in 1992.

<comment><USER20> How is it not true? When ranking avg test scores & gpa the average asian and white scores are usually higher than other ethnicities at top tier universties.

I dont see why things like this always come up. That there is preference exhibited during admissions is fact. It is by design. The real question is if these practices have the desired effect on society.</comment></comment>


WCF Services features in .NET Core – Microsoft seeking developer feedback - <AUTHOR> https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/whereismysolution/2017/09/08/we-want-your-feedback/ <comment><AUTHOR> Direct link to the survey:

[https://www.research.net/r/GitWCF](https://www.research.net/r/GitWCF)

The intro reads:

.NET Core is a set of runtime, library and compiler components that allow you to create apps that run on Windows, Mac OS X and Linux. It can be installed locally with your app with only the packages you need. It provides a lightweight development model and the flexibility to work with your favorite development tools on your favorite development platform.

Currently, .NET Core supports WCF client-side functionality which allows for .NET Core applications to communicate with existing .NET Framework WCF services. This survey is to better understand customer requirements for WCF functionality in post .NET Core 1.0 releases.

The WCF Team is looking to engage closely with the WCF Community on specific scenarios, if you are interested in this partnership - please fill out the Contact Information on the final page of the survey.</comment>


Ask HN: Innovative Conferences / Classes / Training - <AUTHOR>

I'm looking for fresh, innovative and inspiring conferences, classes, training, or similar stuff that I can put on my "training plan."  I am a strange blend of systems administration with a heavy lean to technical client support in a higher education environment.  I read a ton and learn on my own for the most part but have a bit of money to burn on going to cool conferences or other random stuff.  Any suggestions? <comment><USER2> Maybe your question is a bit too generic.

Because you're posting this in HN, I guess you're interested in startups. Then you should go to the Startup School next year.</comment>


Ask HN: Looking for Windows IDE version of TextMate - <AUTHOR>

I really like TextMate for Mac...does anyone have any suggestions for one for Windows 7?
I am doing web development, so one tailored to that would be preferred.
Thanks. <comment><USER2> <http://www.e-texteditor.com/>

It even supports TextMate bundles.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thnx!

<comment><USER3> e-texteditor is probably the best editor on Windows. I miss it a lot when I switched to using Mac, especially the split-screen feature. Textmate sucks at that, and I have to resort to use Divvy to arrange my file windows.

E is totally well worth the price.</comment></comment></comment>


Passbolt – Open source password manager for teams - <AUTHOR> https://www.passbolt.com/ <comment><USER2> This tool is great!

It is helping a lot on credentials sharing on an iberian IT team.

<comment> java-man Sharing of credentials negates the very reason said credentials exist in the first place.

<comment><USER3> While I don't disagree in theory... practically there a number of services that have one "owner account" that represents an organization and a business needs to make sure they have control of that account regardless of personnel changes. PyPi and Rubygems are examples from an old job.

Even when a service, like Twitter, does have multi-user/multi-owner identities in some business plan this might not make sense for small teams.

<comment> java-man A right solution would be a proper key management where each participant maintains his/her password/passphrase that unlocks group credentials.

Otherwise, a bullet proof audit trail with external timestamps would be required.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: What would be a decent learning path/track for a Big Data newbie? - <AUTHOR>

<comment><USER2> Couple of things:

You need to find an affordable place to live, where the demand is high. Atlanta is affordable and has high demand for data skills.

"big data"

[http://jobdensity.com/QueryGrid.aspx?q=855&t=%22big%20data%2...](http://jobdensity.com/QueryGrid.aspx?q=855&t=%22big%20data%22&qt=6/6/2015%205:50:41%20PM)

Statistics

[http://jobdensity.com/QueryGrid.aspx?q=850&t=Statistics&qt=6...](http://jobdensity.com/QueryGrid.aspx?q=850&t=Statistics&qt=6/6/2015%205:41:51%20PM)

sql data

[http://jobdensity.com/QueryGrid.aspx?q=851&t=sql%20data&qt=6...](http://jobdensity.com/QueryGrid.aspx?q=851&t=sql%20data&qt=6/6/2015%205:42:42%20PM)

"machine learning"

[http://jobdensity.com/QueryGrid.aspx?q=853&t=%22machine%20le...](http://jobdensity.com/QueryGrid.aspx?q=853&t=%22machine%20learning%22&qt=6/6/2015%205:46:40%20PM)

mysql

[http://jobdensity.com/QueryGrid.aspx?q=854&t=mysql&qt=6/6/20...](http://jobdensity.com/QueryGrid.aspx?q=854&t=mysql&qt=6/6/2015%205:49:11%20PM)

Oracle is hiring like mad, it might be a place to get a start

[http://www.jobdensity.com/techsector.aspx](http://www.jobdensity.com/techsector.aspx)</comment>


Redis 3.2.0 is out - <AUTHOR> http://antirez.com/news/104 <comment><USER2> Redis is in a _very_ small category of software that's been pleasant to work with from day one and continues to be on a daily basis.

Kudos to antirez on everything before this and another great release.

<comment><USER3> In fact it's quite possibly the only piece of software that HN hasn't bashed or harshly criticized so far :)

<comment><USER4> Thanks, I really receive good sentiments from the community. I've the feeling that this is not due just to the fact that many developers find Redis useful. It has very serious limits like many other softwares. It is that _so far_ Redis was never proposed as "The Shit", the silver bullet that will save you from your data problem. Is just something I and the other contribs try to do with love, without pretending we are going to save the world. I wish this vision was a bit more common, but (un)fortunately data now is an hot topic with too much money on the table, so feelings are a bit over excited sometimes.

EDIT: Many marketing/business people basically don't understand that you cannot over-sell to developers. The effect is the contrary, you turn people down when you try to say you did something too cool to be true, so this strategy also does not work in the long run.

<comment><USER5> "without pretending we are going to save the world". I felt a great disturbance in SV, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced.

<comment><USER6> This. You just made my day.

<comment><USER7> Just FYI, your comment got flagged but I vouched it. I think these little fragments of appreciation should be okay on HN. Sometimes an upvote just isn't enough.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I like their new GEO sorted set with latitude and longitude. Can someone point me to a [reasonably priced] geocoding database to display nearest Town, Region (only where appropriate), Country (in English) based on latitude and longitude?

<comment><USER9> I've used GeoNames (geonames.org) for a few projects.

<comment><USER8> I was turned off by their blurp that their US zip codes database contains only 21k zips out of 41.5k. Are they sufficiently complete for small towns?

<comment><USER10> The incomplete zips (for at least one database I've read about) come from corporate or industrial areas where not many people actually live.

<comment><USER11> Officially US zip codes are just collections of addresses, they don't necessarily correspond to areas.

I think most free datasets are probably just the areas that Census derived for TIGER (or at the very least, rely heavily on that data).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Just realised that [http://download.redis.io/](http://download.redis.io/) is not available under https (neither is [http://redis.io](http://redis.io)).

It may be worth downloading it from github.

<comment><USER4> Or you could download from redis.io and check the hashes we publish at Github: [https://github.com/antirez/redis-hashes](https://github.com/antirez/redis- hashes)

<comment><USER13> Have you looked at Let's Encrypt for the redis.io domain?

<comment><USER4> Yes, I hope to implement it soon!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> If I was a betting man, I would bet the new "interesting feature" is related to time series. Or maybe that's just my wishful thinking.

</comment><comment><USER15> I've been using RC for a couple of months now in production, albeit my site is very small, and has been proven rock-stable. And the code is a pleasure to read. Amazing piece of software! Keep up the good work!

</comment><comment><USER16> The geo API seems rather... specific. Is there really a demand for it?

<comment><USER17> Geo is insanely useful when you're after stuff within x miles of a known location - so a lot of mobile apps.

My problem with many existing geo implementations is they assume that a circular radius is the query type I care about, and longitude and latitude is sufficient to know where I actually am in terms of jurisdiction, etc.

Being able to add fine grained polygons to represent national, state, county or town boundaries and being able to identify the relationships between my co- ordinates and those entities is still far more complex than I would like.

Adding polygon support might be an interesting exercise, actually.

<comment><USER4> Hey Paul, we have this feature added as a Lua script, but adding it in a native way could be interesting actually. Itamar Haber wrote the Lua script and was pushing for adding it in a native way, I wanted to check after the release the actual demand for it.

<comment><USER18> This would be extremely helpful. We work with local governments and they have a cornucopia of geo-boundaries to query across. PostGIS works really well, but providing a cache-layer on top via Redis for simple counts would be amazing.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> The new BITFIELD seems like it could be really cool, but I can't quite figure out the use case. Anybody planning on using that that can enlighten me? Thanks.

<comment><USER20> I plan on using it to track what database objects have a corresponding cached image thumbnail. 10 million objects in my database, thumbnails generated on the fly, fast get/set the unique ID of the object in the bitfield. very small storage for what you get.

<comment><USER21> You can already do this using BITSET -- I tracked 100 million objects with incremental integer keys during a migration process and it worked great.

From what I read, BITFIELD behaves differently -- it treats your data as a series of "packed" bits. So while with BITSET you operate on each bit individually, with BITFIELD you operate on a series of bits with a starting offset, and you have to be mindful of the length.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> does anyone know how quickly the official docker containers will be out? [https://hub.docker.com/_/redis/](https://hub.docker.com/_/redis/)

Could build it myself but if the official image will be out in a day or so id rather wait I think.

<comment><USER23> I just submitted a pull request: [https://github.com/docker- library/redis/pull/57](https://github.com/docker-library/redis/pull/57)

<comment><USER22> nice! didn't realize thats how that worked.

<comment><USER23> To expand on that topic: You can find all the Dockerfiles of the official images linked at the very top on Docker Hub [1]. Once my pull request is merged a Docker-Redis maintainer will have to open another pull request to update the references of the official image on Docker hub [2].

In fact I already updated the Redis Docker image once. You can see the full process there [3].

[1] [https://hub.docker.com/_/redis/](https://hub.docker.com/_/redis/) [2] [https://github.com/docker-library/official- images/pulls](https://github.com/docker-library/official-images/pulls) [3] [https://github.com/docker-library/redis/pull/25](https://github.com/docker- library/redis/pull/25)</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Surveillance Capitalism - <AUTHOR> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surveillance_capitalism <comment><USER2> For a topic as well-covered as this ([https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...](https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=comments%3E0%20Surveillance%20Capitalism&sort=byDate&type=story&storyText=none)) it would be better to submit something more specific than a Wikipedia article.

Wikipedia submissions are good for extremely obscure things.

</comment><comment><USER3> My issue with the term is that governments are, and will ever be more invasive with our private data than private companies. This makes sense: the government will never be held accountable for data hoarding, and in fact kinda needs to hoard data to prosecute tax fraud and ensure law enforcement, but private businesses want to make sure people still use them, even if their users are privacy conscious.

Moreover, a bunch of fully for-profit companies are living off of exclusively selling privacy. Their only reason to exist is protecting their customer's information. Think ProtonMail, Tutanota, TunnelBear, privacy.com, the Mozilla Foundation (to a certain extent), Qwant, DuckDuckGo, and so on and so forth.

I very much preferred the previous term: "Government Surveillance". As some other comments on this page also pointed out, this loss of privacy comes with the benefit of productivity and reduced friction, while government surveillance rarely ever has a positive side to it (except catching criminals, and even so at the expense of non-criminals' privacy).

<comment><USER4> Key difference: You elect your government, and if you aren't happy with how they're doing things, you can vote them out. I never voted for Zuckerberg, Bezos, Cook or whoever runs Google.

<comment><USER5> If you aren't happy with Amazon, Facebook, Google, Apple, etc, you can choose not to be a customer of them. You can't opt out of paying taxes.

<comment><USER4> I'm not a customer of Google nor Facebook, but they're still tracking me all over the internet.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Capitalism isn't seen as anything bad in most countries after the cold war.

I would prefer the term privacy prostitution or data prostitution. You sell your privacy in exchange for getting "free" search, "free" news, "free" maps, "free" email. Of course such services cannot be free of cost.

Traditionally Germany had a law that you are not allowed to give "gifts" when selling something. So when offering a car they were not allowed to give a "free" grill or something like that. The goal was to protect consumers from intrasparent pricing and unfair business practices. Some market-liberalist politicians abandoned the law many years ago, because consumers are "mature enough" to make their own decisions.

So how many consumers decide to pay for the internet services they use instead of being tracked?

<comment><USER7> > Capitalism isn't seen as anything bad in most countries after the cold war.

It's called "surveillance capitalism" because companies are _capitalizing_ on selling people's data. It differentiates it from _government_ surveillance.

<comment><USER8> In a corrupt (nation) state, you could for example buy some information about a person, via the government. Corruptcy is not a black-white definition. There are a lot of shades, wheels in a machine, etc. So a state is not merely corrupt, yes or no.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I'd rather have surveillance capitalism than government surveillance/authoritarianism. The worst thing these guys can do is try to sell me a porn subscription I don't need. Government surveillance is much worse.

<comment><USER10> I can imagine a number of worse things that surveillance capitalists could do, like sell services to the aforementioned governments, or sell your porn subscription to someone else.

<comment><USER11> And practically, all the data collected by private corporations can be obtained by governments via a subpoena. Until it could be changed, all corporate surveillance is ultimately government surveillance. And there's strong evidence suggests that it occurs at a routine basis. Although some companies like Lavabit showed respectable efforts to be independent and privacy-respecting, on the other hand, some companies actively cooperating with the government, or even oppressive regimes without regards of ethics. So yes, government surveillance is worse than corporate surveillance, but the latter can be seriously harmful in many cases as well.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> The term "capitalism" is a mind-trap, vaguely encompassing everything.. carrying in political baggage but adda almost no actual information.

<comment><USER13> well... in modern parlance perhaps.

but the word has a specific and precise definition despite peoples' ignorance of it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> I listened to the Econtalk episode with Zuboff and Roberts a while ago and I wasn't really sold on her arguments despite actually being personally quite to the left on economic issues usually.

The problem I had with the critique is that the answer to surveillance capitalism always seems to be a return to privacy. Big Business is to big, we need to claim data autonomy,be democratic, and so on.

I think the reason why surveillance capitalism is so successful is because people actually like the automation and transparency. There's always this "wake up sheeple" element to the critique that in my opinion just doesn't address the fact that people simply value the utility they gain out of these tools higher than privacy. I think the better way forward is to align the interests of end consumers and business rather than attempting to retreat back into private spaces.

<comment><USER8> > I think the reason why surveillance capitalism is so successful is because > people actually like the automation and transparency.

(I still have to read her book.)

They pay with their privacy, but the payment is not at all transparent. In a way, it already happened: if you upgraded to Windows 10 for free back in the days (before GDPR), you paid with your privacy. If you use Android instead of iOS, you have a cheaper device, but you pay with your privacy. The Apple tax is high in a lot of countries. Too high for the masses. In essence, an iOS device is a status symbol that you paid with money instead of your privacy.

<comment><USER14> >but you pay with your privacy

And I think that's a perfectly okay choice to make. I don't know why I shouldn't pay with my information, given that I'm aware of it. I'm fine with having an android phone and using the few hundred bucks I save on something else.

My information has some value, and by trading that information to a company that provides me with a service I get something out of it. If I keep data private that I don't mind sharing and instead would say, pay with cash, I'd lose out on getting some value out of my data.

Now I think there is an interesting discussion to be had if users could organise to leverage the value they get out of their data, people have talked about a sort of 'data union' to collectively bargain for a higher return, but in principle I don't mind using my data as a currency.</comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: Is quantum computing likely to happen before strong AI? - <AUTHOR> There is a lot of excitement around AI recently, but AI is also the field that has historically over promised and under delivered. Quantum computing on the other hand is making concrete progress, consistently, for years. Which one do you think will become practical first? Quantum computers in every home or strong AI bots everywhere? My vote is for quantum computing. <comment><USER2> "Strong AI" is a not a very well-defined problem. People will disagree on whether something is a strong AI -- to the point that any solved problem will no longer be considered strong AI, as soon as it has been solved. Quantum computing is much more well-defined, and thus we'll likely have a quantum computer before a strong AI. That being said, I would also expect some very major advances in the wider field of AI before we get to large scale quantum computers.

</comment><comment><USER3> I think quantum computing will optimize certain AI tasks, so in a nutshell theory you will need quantum computing to establish strong(est) AI ... and forget about the bots, I don't even consider them a task in this, more on the automated planning side.

</comment><comment><USER4> There at least exists some theory by which quantum computing could come to exist. "Strong AI", whatever that is, not so much...

</comment><comment><USER5> I believe quantum computing is a pre-requisite for strong AI, so I think you know where I'd vote.</comment>


Ask HN: What are the knowledge lost when babyboomers retire? - <AUTHOR>

Over 7000 babyboomers retire each day since 2011. This is a staggering number. There have been a lot of places on the web saying we're losing a huge amount of knowledge from these retirees.<p>I'm having trouble understanding the importance of this - what are some specific examples of the knowledge lost? <comment><USER2> I feel that the most important knowledge that (some) baby boomers have is political organizing knowledge (i.e. how to build a movement, solidarity- building, union organizing). Luckily, this transfer of knowledge can only be accelerated by retirement (if the boomers choose to remain politically active).

Other than that, when I look at all that generation has accomplished/fucked- up, and I say meh. Better to loose the knowledge and build new structures.

<comment><USER3> Young dog: "old dogs can't learn new tricks"

Old dog: "only puppies think those tricks are new"

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Saturn V rocketry.

</comment><comment><USER3> You won't truly understand the importance of it for another couple decades.

Maybe more.

It's not like there are important facts they know that you don't (well, maybe). Rather, they will have refined their understanding of almost everything.

You have experienced this sort of thing yourself.

There are subjects that as a child, you _thought_ you knew _SO_ much about -- and (I'm making a possibly incorrect assumption that you're in your early 20s) as an adult you realize that your childhood understanding was hopelessly crude.

And forty-year-old-you will look back on your current understanding and consider it, at best, to have been unsophisticated.

I can only imagine what you'll think when you reach retirement age because I myself, am only in my forties.

I have however, noticed smirks on the faces of the elderly and wondered what they know that I don't... yet.</comment>


Ask HN: Being an expert witness - <AUTHOR> I recently found a lawyer looking for expert witnesses "with a graduate degree from a prestigious school and a knowledge of algorithms." Sounded like a perfect fit and I ended up getting the job (with the up front disclosure that I had never done it before and would require coaching).<p>Has anyone else ever been an expert witness and what was your experience like? Any lessons learned? <comment><USER2> They will likely want to hear something specific (that helps their case), so be ready to walk when you're pushed into saying or implying something that you don't believe.</comment>


PVC + Watsi – Plugins for People - <AUTHOR> http://pvcbuild.com/watsi

<comment><AUTHOR> Just to start this discussion off, PVC is a new project that is a great opportunity for people to ease into writing OSS .NET code.

I believe in the .NET OSS community. Its small but growing and we need to bring more people in. I believe in watsi. We're hoping that helping others is a good motivator to get someone to take that first step. For me, that was all that was needed and I've been contributing to open source for 5 years now!

</comment><comment><USER2> So the gist here is to create a plugin for this new Gulp-inspired build system, PVC, and in return, $50 gets donated to a person in medical need via Watsi.

Very cool.

I have no idea how to write build system plugins, but it looks simple enough. I have no idea what sort of plugins they're looking for, but I see they have a list of 'help wanteds' here: [https://github.com/pvcbuild/pvc/issues](https://github.com/pvcbuild/pvc/issues)

My tech infatuation at the moment is TypeScript, so I'm going to try my hand at a TypeScript plugin now, we'll see how it goes!

+1 for encouraging open source contributions while helping people in need.

</comment><comment><USER3> Is PVC Windows-only?

<comment><AUTHOR> The current version is .NET only, but we're working on Mono support thanks to some work by the scriptcs team [1]. I'd expect a package in the next few weeks.

[1] [https://github.com/scriptcs/scriptcs/issues/80](https://github.com/scriptcs/scriptcs/issues/80)</comment></comment>


Are there any systemic and scientific way to develop a habit? - <AUTHOR> I want to develop many daily habits, such as running, reading, or exercise every day, but all difficult to stick to, I know someone, such as zurkburg, who can insist on what they want to do, so I wonder is there any systemic way i can develop a habit? <comment><USER2> Try this guy:

[http://tinyhabits.com](http://tinyhabits.com)</comment>


How  to Burn Out Programming - <AUTHOR> http://blog.braegger.pw/5-ways-to-burn-out-programming/ <comment><USER2> Where's "Don't exercise?"

That'd be pretty close to the top of my list.

A quick 2-3 mile jog around the neighborhood can help get me out of work- related funks. (I work at a home office, though, so it's easier for me to say "fuck it" and go do something sweaty in the middle of the day...)

My theory is that, since the only real item on your jogging to-do list is to put one foot in front of the other, your brain is freed up a bit to wander. Which is helped by the light stimulus of the changing environment around you. And this brain wandering helps shake out cobwebs and generally make you feel like a free individual again.

And, of course, it gives you an energy boost, which helps with the simple exhaustion side of things.

<comment><USER3> Exercise, I've found, is probably the single most important aspect of maintaining "happiness."

The problem is I can't consistently muster the willpower to block out an hour long chunk of time to go running or workout at gym. I found a lovely compromise, though:

### The Seven Minute Workout [1][2] ###

It removes literally every excuse my brain can come up with not to work out. Too cold outside? Doesn't matter, you're not going anywhere. Not enough time? The time you'll spend coming up with excuses is probably longer than 7 minutes. That's like two songs on the songza workout playlist. Don't feel like changing? Doesn't matter - you can do it in the clothes you're in. Can't find the equipment you need? All you need is a chair, a wall, and a 7x3 clear space of floor.

I figure it's much better to do this every day [3] than to go on a workout binge where I work out 2 hours at the gym on Monday, take Tuesday off, dread going there for 1.5 hours on Wednesday, take Thursday off, take Friday off because I'm still sore from Wednesday, take the weekend off because it's the weekend, and then forget about working out again.

1\. [http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/05/09/the- scientific-7-mi...](http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/05/09/the- scientific-7-minute-workout/)

2\. [http://www.7-min.com/](http://www.7-min.com/)

3\. [http://dontbreakthechain.com/share/christiangenco/last- four/...](http://dontbreakthechain.com/share/christiangenco/last-four/96970)

<comment><USER4> I was skeptical, but now I'm impressed. I just had a great 7-minute workout in my clothes without leaving my living room. This will definitely become my routine when I don't feel like going to the gym.

<comment><USER3> JOIN ME BROTHER! [http://dontbreakthechain.com](http://dontbreakthechain.com)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> My list would be more like --

How to Burn Out Programming:

1) Do it too much for too long while being under stress. The same way you burn out doing anything.

2) See #1

I do agree with some of the points laid out in the post, but disagree with #2 and #4.

#2 ("Have a negative attitude toward everything") is a bad thing for team morale and should be avoided but I don't believe it has anything to do with burnout.

#4 ("Switch jobs often") assumes a very idealized world. The vast majority of jobs are nothing like PhD programs and you have very little freedom to dig deep into a problem unless the problem directly involves revenue generation. I've had to quit a couple of jobs due to the fact that staying there maintaining the same old code base without really expanding functionality or otherwise flexing my "programming muscles" would have been what resulted in my burnout. Part of my issue with this one might be the lack of definition for "often". Obviously if you are switching jobs every 6 months to a year that's not great, but the reality of many modern software companies is that keeping good developers engaged with their job 3-5 or so years in requires very enlightened management, which is rare now.

#4 also assumes that as developers it is naturally our goal to become managers and directors. Personally I have zero interest in doing either of those jobs. And I don't think good developers really have to try that hard to prove themselves at new jobs, in my experience it is pretty obvious to other good developers pretty quickly when someone else is good.

<comment><USER6> The problem with #2 is that the author lists it as something that causes burnout when instead is one of the likely results.

I agree about #4 and many of the things he lists are a bit subjective and for some could be again result of being burnout. Your career stagnates even if you persist remaining in the same useless place forever and sometime starting anew somewhere else, on new problems, could at least temporarily help someone suffering from burnout.

<comment><USER7> His points are really the symptoms of doing other things wrong and appear to be mostly self-inflicted.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I'd say the opposite about switching companies. If you want to make sure that you have no new ideas and increasing tunnel vision with regard to other aspects of life then stay in the same job for long periods of time doing the same thing with the same tools, day in day out. Have no outside interests and work long hours, putting your entire identity and energy into one company/task/organisation/product, and that's a good recipe for burnout.

Also definitely don't exercise and always eat at your desk.

</comment><comment><USER9> Burn out (and worse) victim here; took me almost 10 years to fully recover. I would say not or too little exercise and caring too much (about everything, like the tools you use, the language you use, what people think of you, about deadlines) are the main causes I have seen in myself and others. The rest, If you don't do the former, don't really matter too much IMHO. I like working long hours still etc but I just don't really care about deadlines anymore for instance. In 25 years working for client I have to meet the first one who actually had a real deadline beyond that they would 'like' to have it done by then. And yet that, combined with other things you care about as coder, almost literally killed me.

The reality is that software is very complex and so are the humans thinking it up; if they want working stuff in the end, things are done when they are done. And they cost a lot and you are going to not like your the code you wrote after you wrote it and there might be better tools etc. Who cares? Only you unfortunately and if you let that go you'll have happy clients and you'll be happy yourself.

</comment><comment><USER10> _" Switch jobs often"_

Er, no.

Let's look at the reasons he offers.

 _" Growing in the company (developer -> manager -> director)"_ Yes. You can become master and commander of how to get along and make a good impression on one bunch of people. Or you can learn from many. Guess which one is going to help you once the company lays you off.

 _" Gaining an expertise in a specific area. Considering it takes 4-6 years for a PhD student to get their PhD, that's a lot of time you need for learnin."_ You become an expert in a technical field by using some piece of tech in many different situations. In the vast majority of job-related situations, whatever situation you've got, you've got. It ain't changing.

 _" You are having to start from scratch often. If you are a good developer, you have to "prove" yourself (people listen to you) all over again."_ Starting from scratch, proving your worth, _is a good thing_. We don't want people who think they can rest on their laurels. Every now and then kick yourself in the ass to see if you can still hack it -- before life does it for you.

A more interesting blog entry would be "How to work past burn-out" That is, okay, fine, you've reached the end of your rope. You care about nothing, you're cranky all the time, you're lethargic, and you're bitter. How do you get up tomorrow morning and be happy while doing a good job without losing your livelihood? Because that's where a lot of people are, not making lists of things to do to avoid burnout.

</comment><comment><USER11> I posted a while back about this, but my belief is that burnout stems from a repeated failure to be timely rewarded for effort that then results in conditioning to avoid labor to prevent the negative prediction error.

Tips that don't address the root cause are fine but think about the mechanism.

<comment><USER12> Make sense to me.

Then, burnout is a smart activity.

Burnout is protecting you!

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> I also think you can fall into a kind of reverse burnout.

If you work in a slow beauacratic environment with no stress, no accountability, no change and no challenge then you really do start to notice all of the same symptoms.

<comment><USER14> _> reverse burnout_

This is also known as "boreout".

(However, I can't find evidence that "boreout" is a well-known word outside Germany. So maybe it's just one of our many German inventions of pseudo- english words.)

<comment><USER15> I'm gonna use it now. Question is, how do you find (and keep) a job that navigates the extremely narrow path between burnout and boreout?

<comment><USER16> Why do you think it's narrow?

(Question asked by somebody that got burnedout by trying to professionalise side projects just after getting boredout by my job. I see a huge distance between those.)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> "5\. Work long hours, ignore your life"

Anyone else getting sick of this false dichotomy of "long hours" and "having a life"? What am I going to do with that life, visit new restaurants / collect stamps / try new variations of yoga / go out to bars? Alright the last one ain't so bad.

Seriously, if someone's in their 20s and want to work/program away while they build their career, just shut up and let them. Maybe that's what they _actually_ want to do over anything else. I know, it must suck for you family guys / slower guys - let's face it, it's more competition because there are people willing to do what you are not: forgo more leisure activities and personal relationships. The point is, however, that this is not a sacrifice for some people, but a preference.

But burnout is not due to "not having a life", it's due to ignoring your physiology. It's due to "eating like a programmer", doing these stupid all- night "hackathons", not exercising, not sleeping, and generally being a moron with your health. I will also add that to avoid burnout, take care of your psyche. Don't skip that 30 min coffee to catch-up with an old friend if it will make you happy, for example. Social isolation creates physiological consequences as well, which can contribute to burnout - but again, this isn't true for everyone, and there's a wide spectrum of acceptable values which many like to ignore.

<comment><USER18> > [working long hours] is not a sacrifice for some people, but a preference.

Its easy to view as "not a sacrifice" now, but like everything else, you are more likely than not to view it as a sacrifice later. Listen to those with more experience than you; I personally wish I had, and I'm trying to make up for it now.

> But burnout is not due to "not having a life", it's due to ignoring your > physiology

I disagree that burnout is primarily physiological, it's much more a mental ailment - a state of mind that is exceptionally hard to break out of. Not having any other buffer than more work to engage your mind with will very quickly cause you to burn out.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> I could be wrong, but rcklmbr and I probably hit burnout at the same time at the same company. Some of the lies I told myself/was told:

Lie 1. The technology doesn't matter. All languages sucks and are turing complete anyways. Who cares if it's in perl or enterprise java? Does my happiness really depend on writing python?

Lie 2. The technology does matter. If I'm working on a Social-Mobile-Location startup using python with free reign over technology I'll be in developer bliss right? Wait, maybe if it's all go and protocol buffers I'll be giddy with joy. Frankly the difference between new and old technology is usually the choosing between decades old tech and decades old tech. (Oh, you're using epoll/select/kqueue? The 1980's called, they want their tech back) (Javascript? The 1990's called, it's for you) Heaven forbid you go talk to startup folks with your 90's programming language called Java.

Lie 3. (From PHB) "while long term overtime doesn't scale, it's a great tool to boost productivity in the short term during crunch time, after all a startup is defined as a way to cram 10 years of life experience into one"

So here's what I believe to be the truth, for me, so far.

1\. Burn out takes longer than you'd ever imagine to recover from. After a certain point you just don't care if the fire alarm is going off and the building's burning down because it's _always_ burning down. Once you leave that situation/job, it's hard to shake that mentality.

2\. New technologies, platforms, and protocols are fun. Learning is fun. I don't mind writing my own libraries because it helps scratch that itch of always wanting to know how things work just one level deeper.

3\. People matter exponentially more than anything else. It's not just working with smart people. I've worked with lots of smart people with the emotional IQ of a poorly trained Rottweiler. The best engineers I've ever worked with are usually people who've made the decision that engineering is not the most important thing in their life. They've also discovered Lie #2 and so are a little bit less dogmatic. "Oh you want to send binary encoded messages over UDP to collect statistics, I remember when we did that with ASN1. Here's a nickel kid, go get yourself a real protocol".

</comment><comment><USER20> Now how about an article on how to recover from burn out, doing nothing all day for a couple months doesn't seem to be working out.

<comment><USER21> Ouch.

My theory is that it's related to ego depletion. [1]

If that's correct, you should find things that you want to do, and do them. _Start small._ And do your best to not focus on the burnout; focus on what you can enjoy about what you _are_ doing. Look for little victories; I'm convinced that accomplishing things, _anything_ , can help recharge you.

I also think social connections can recharge you. Not the kind on Facebook, but the face-to-face kind. Facebook is particularly poisonous because, for the most part, everyone ends up trying to paint a perfect picture of their lives, leaving out most of the down parts. The contrast can make you feel worse.

It's also valuable to have a doctor run a standard battery of tests. It might be that you're really low on some important vitamin or mineral. Or that you have high systemic inflammation, which is a cause of everything from heart disease to cancer. (In which case you should eat more fish and/or flax oil.)

This is all (unfortunately) from personal experience (vitamin D was very low when they tested me, for instance). I'm feeling like I'm just recovering from burnout right now, in fact. Today was my first really good day in a long time, and that despite working long hours yesterday to get a last feature in. :)

Good luck. Hope you can find your way back to happy living soon.

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_depletion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_depletion)

<comment><USER20> It's just the contrast between the person I was not too long ago and the person I am now makes it hard to believe that they're the same person.

When I think of the kid who used to tinker around with computers and electronics, I always see him as another person. There's no way that guy would ever find learning a new programming language boring, or find it difficult to get out of bed for classes he was really excited about.

I appreciate the post and will try some of the stuff you suggested out. Glad to hear you had your first really good day! This isn't the first time I've felt stuck in a rut and I know how great it is to feel that way. :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> Point 4 is wrong. It says that by switching jobs often, your career stagnates. Quite often the opposite is true; switching gives you an opportunity to grow, take on new responsibilities that you don't get at your old place, learn and compare different ways of doing things, etc.

I've had lots of great jobs where I had a great time and learned a lot, but at every single one, leaving was one of my best decisions there. Now that I'm a freelancer, I switch a lot more, and I notice a comparable increase in the rate at which I'm learning and growing.

</comment><comment><USER23> > "You don't have to work a lot of hours, but some people choose to." You want > to impress your boss. Hell, you want to impress yourself. So you go die-hard > to meet an impossible deadline. You delivered the project on time, with all > the extra features you wanted. You are the hero. High fives all around. And > if you're lucky, you'll get that bonus.

This makes me cringe. If you're a developer, it's your manager's job to assign tasks which can be completed on a reasonable schedule, and to adjust stakeholder expectations if they don't turn out to be achievable on time. If you're facing an impossible deadline, that means that your boss hasn't done their job. It's not your responsibility to dig them out.

And if you _do_ pull through and somehow finish on time, all you've conveyed to your manager is that the status quo is working. You've demonstrated that they can move up deadlines in order to get more work out of you without paying you for it. If your team is understaffed, they can save money by leaving it understaffed. Soft deadlines (the boss has a meeting on Thursday and it would be a feather in their cap to have a feature working by then) turn into hard deadlines when they learn that developers don't push back.

</comment><comment><USER24> > " _4\. Switch jobs often_ "

This is true, but the other extreme is also true - being too loyal, stuck in a soul sucking boring job dominated by internal fights and politics, can also lead to burnout. Sometimes it gets tough to find work you enjoy doing.

> " _5\. Work long hours, ignore your life_ "

This should be the number one reason for burnout. I think it happens most often with young developers in their twenties that don't have a family to get back to at the end of the day. Personally I now have a wife and a 3 year old son and I'm always happy to return home at the end of the day or to engage in various activities over the weekend. And because I do that, I enjoy most Mondays.

Of course, we are software developers, we like what we do, many times we want to work outside regular hours. But personally I have a general rule that I always apply -> I never work overtime or on weekends, unless I'm in the mood for it or if there's an extreme emergency. Therefore, I never cared when some manager or client told me that the deadline is probably going to be late, so maybe we should pull longer hours. When asked, I always say "No, sorry". My overtime is for things that bring me pleasure - implementing a cool feature that I wanted, or learning something new, or implementing something reusable and pushing it on GitHub ... you know, works of love.

There's a tremendous difference between working overtime because you're in the mood for it versus because you have to.

Also missing from the list:

> " _6\. Be dishonest, never ask for help_

I've decided some time ago that I should always be honest with my colleagues, managers or clients. In my language we've got an expression that more or less means wasting time - "rubbing the mint". Sometimes I rub the mint - and in scrums and daily meetings, I now feel no shame in admitting that the other day I did basically nothing. I also recognize when I'm having problems, like when I'm not understanding a concept well enough or when I can't find the root cause of a problem and do ask for help ... though, because of the ego-tripping or other reasons, this is something that's often difficult to do.

It does help being honest and nobody is bothered when you admit that you were lazy the other day or that you're having problems, because everybody have the same issues in their job, even if they don't admit it.

Being honest and recognizing your own flaws helps with not feeling guilty. If you're lying to your peers that you got work done, that you're close to solving the problem, etc... that's accumulating debt that you have to pay in the days that follow and it can lead to a snowball effect.

<comment><USER25> Being honest is something I highly recommend. Of course, there will be friction: a lot of people seem to be intimidated by it, but it's worth it. You'll find those people who appreciate and practice up unconditional honesty, and you'll be a lot happier in your work, home, and love life. Great tip.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> [http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais- principle-o...](http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-or- the-office-according-to-the-office/)

MacLeod's Loser layer had me puzzled for a long time, because I was interpreting it in cultural terms: the kind of person you call a "loser." While some may be losers in that sense too, they are primarily losers in the economic sense: those who have, for various reasons, made (or been forced to make) a bad economic bargain. They've given up some potential for long-term economic liberty (as capitalists) for short-term economic stability. Traded freedom for a paycheck in short. They actually produce, but are not compensated in proportion to the value they create (since their compensation is set by Sociopaths operating under conditions of serious moral hazard). They mortgage their lives away, and hope to die before their money runs out.

</comment><comment><USER27> Also worthy to note, some neurologists believe that burn out may be a result of effort and reward imbalance, more so than physical drain. I believe this is known as effort reward imbalance theory.

<comment><USER28> Does that fall under neurology? - it sounds more like psychology to me.

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> That's why I never deliver on time for unreasonable deadlines. If you do it once people will expect it all the time from then on.

If you don't like it fire me i value my sanity more then i do your unreasonable deadline.

P.S. I never bother to impress anybody I do what i do for myself it that's impressive to you great if not that's ok too.

</comment><comment><USER30> _Growing in the company (developer - > manager -> director)_

One of the great things about Cisco (my current employer) is that there's a really strong technical career path that doesn't force engineers into the management hierarchy. I hope that this becomes more common at tech companies as time goes on.

<comment><USER31> As much as I like to shit on Cisco and the price on their devices, according to the engineers I've spoken to, they have a great work-life balance. As far as big companies go it's one of the few I wouldn't mind working for.

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> Number 4 worries me. What's considered to be "too short" a time period between jobs? I was at my previous job 18 months - I'd say a bit 'too short'. I've been at my current job 3 years. Is that 'too short' to think about moving on because I'm bored?

<comment><USER22> To me, 4 years is too long. 2 years is probably perfect for a salaried job. 6-12 months for a freelance contract.

But this can be totally different for other people.

<comment><USER28> The think is, for any type of maintenance programming on a large system, it takes 6 months to get up to speed and be properly productive in my experience.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> So true, so true.

As someone's manager I want them to know that these things are NOT roads to "success." Not everyone though has the makeup or fortitude to tell their boss no, and bosses who take advantage of that are a real problem. What is worse is someone who was so talented and now they are worthless because they can't find any motivation to do anything. Its like being so sore from exercising that you can't walk, and if you can't walk you can't work the lactic acid out of your muscles and you're going to be incapacitated for a lot longer.

<comment><USER34> IMHO the main cause of burnout are managers.

A manager must act as a shield for the people under them and not as a whip from the upper managemnt (Like a lot of them do, my current one included).

</comment></comment><comment><USER35> _Challenge yourself a little bit in doing something you didn 't think you could. Show it to everyone you know, and don't just ask for feedback, but brag about what you've done._

This did something for me. I'm recovering from a dark place. I recently joined codepen and as superficial and lame as it sounds, every "like" and "view" is like a dose of anti-depressant :) [http://codepen.io/sakri/popular](http://codepen.io/sakri/popular)

</comment><comment><USER36> Not off topic but looking for people who have a different approach towards coding and life,

> Growing in the company (developer -> manager -> director)

I recently realized that I really don't want to be a manager or director. Nor do I have the interest in becoming the consultant or startup route. For me, the coolest to do is to contribute to open source projects, lean programming languages/Linux Kernel/Bioinformatics/ML etc. for fun; I'd love to find the right balance of doing either menial work or mindless web dev work without being too taxing to fund my own personal interests; and am willing to be basically work at an livable income (40K in a big metro).

Recently a gentleman mentioned on a thread that he is doing indie game development while working at a Target warehouse. I'd love to hear people who are have gone down this route or have the same mindset. Do you guys work say half a year doing consulting and half a year on your own stuff? Or do you guys work at a menial job and work on your free mental capacities after work. Or do you work at a menial web dev job or at a company that offers "summer hours" (4 day 10-hour weeks) or flex-time and work on cool stuff after work. Would love to hear some of your thoughts and journey should you have gone down this path.

<comment><USER37> You can definitely get paid to do the open source stuff you think is cool. Getting a day job to pay for your night job seems like a recipe for disaster.

</comment></comment><comment><USER38> _2\. Have a negative attitude toward everything._

People who pretend to think that you can simply willfully infuse yourself with positivity annoy me.

Negativity is how individuals react to certain environments. You can change some features in the environment and fix that, but simply demanding everyone to be positive is stupid. It's essentially a demand for suffering in silence.

<comment><USER39> Yes, some negativity will always come up. But I've known people who have a miserable attitude about everything, or far too frequently, and as a disproportionate response to their environment. It's like they wake up and say "I want to be a crummy person today".

I was working data-validation at a big tech company, and the data-validation tool was under active development. It'd crash ~20 times in an 8 hour workday. I would happily restart my Tool and get back into it, but other people would huff and puff and rant. And it's like: What are you accomplishing with this attitude?

Empathically speaking, maybe it's because they have a hard home life or had a tough childhood. But it's unprofessional and your negative energy affects me. So I'll be the mirror you need and throw it all back in your face. :)

<comment><USER38> _I was working data-validation at a big tech company, and the data-validation tool was under active development. It 'd crash ~20 times in an 8 hour workday. I would happily restart my Tool and get back into it, but other people would huff and puff and rant. And it's like: What are you accomplishing with this attitude?_

You're communicating to others that you don't consider an app that crashes 20 times a day an acceptable norm. The question is, does anyone listen?

Sure, there are things that are unchangeable and there is no point in complaining about them. But if you have a positive attitude towards cockroaches in your food (figuratively speaking), it's no longer positivity. It's called not giving a fuck.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> The interesting assumption here is that the programming is being done for someone else.

I personally go through burnout cycles where I have to take a break for a few days or (rarely) a few weeks. Most of the programming though that causes this is programming I do for my own business, not for someone else (i.e. it's not commissioned work). Part of the reason is that this has to fit between paid work, and part of the reason is that these projects are far more interesting and engrossing.

One of the things that does end up on both lists is the idea of pushing the project to the expense of everything else in your consciousness. That leads to thinking only about the project and ignoring one's own life (because even when you are not working, you are planning to work).

</comment><comment><USER41> "4\. Switch jobs often" As someone has mentioned. the other extreme can also be dangerous. A familiar style of working can also lead to burnout. What about team burnouts.. have seen teams experiencing the same because of pressure from the managers.

</comment><comment><USER42> Point #2, negativity, is one of the more surprising things I've had to deal with. It leaks into your personal life, and nobody likes "that guy/girl" who is critical and pessimistic about every little thing.

Great read, thanks for sharing!

</comment><comment><USER43> It is all about balance. For instance it is important to make parts of your work fun and it is important to do the grunt work. It is important to learn new things and it is important to recognize that at some point you have to use what you already know even if it is not perfect. And so on...

Different persons have different ways to balance those conflicting needs. You have to learn what you can sustain and try to not go too far.

</comment><comment><USER44> This post makes a lot of sense in a general context too I think. This is the way I read it:

How not to burn out doing X:

1\. Don't obsess over X

2\. Stay positive!

3\. Learn new things, experiment

4\. Maintain a healthy life outside X (i.e dont obsess)

</comment><comment><USER45> "our job is so find faults in our applications and fix them."

Spelling mistake, it should be "our job is to find faults..."

Oh the irony.

</comment><comment><USER46> Isn't "Do long enough things you dont like to do." enough to burn out?

<comment><USER16> Not for me.

\- It's lacking intensity, more like "spend a big enough share of your day on long enough thigs".

\- The "you don't like to do" part is not required (hell I burned out doing a side project, in a new language, with an amazing framework - at least, I was amazed, all th time untill burnout).

\- And it's missing something that I suspect is the "lack of rewards" described on other posts.

<comment><USER46> > The "you don't like to do" part is not required (hell I burned out doing a > side project, in a new language, with an amazing framework - at least, I was > amazed, all th time untill burnout)

Weren't you just tired? Same way that after few even amazing but long hikes you don't feel like walking again for some time (weeks, months).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER47> another good fact, IMHO, if we apply this doing sth we love, doesn't completly feel like burning out.. does it?

<comment><USER48> I think if you're doing something you really love, you are less likely to suffer from burnout.

</comment></comment><comment><USER49> Another passionate-less bloke, spreading the passionate-less gospel. Yay for averageness and stagnating lazy stupidness!

<comment><USER48> You sound like someone who has never experienced burnout...

<comment><USER49> No.16 hrs work days. Sleep, exercise, eat extremely clean and healthy. Code/Engineer all day and very successful.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER50> #4 seems to be generating a lot of controversy, because the reverse also leads to burnout.

First, if you expect every job to last 5+ years, you'll often make suboptimal choices when it comes to balancing your own needs vs. the stated corporate objectives. Mistakes #1 (single-project myopia) and #5 (long hours, to the detriment of the rest of one's life) occur when people lose the ability to look outside their own jobs. If you have it in your mind that you absolutely must stay with a company for the next 10 years, you're much more likely to make those sorts of mistakes.

It's ideal that you get a good job and it lasts 5+ years, but you have to go to work with the understanding that the world might change on you in an instant.

What you need to do is focus _always_ on your career. Try to kick out as much of your work to the open-source world as you can. Network before you need it. You need to play so that if you lose your job tomorrow, you'll be OK. Because you just might. It can happen to anyone at any time. If you plan your career properly, though, the next job will be a step up. It's when you're constantly moving around with no progress-- spending 6 months out of each year "on- boarding" into parochial corporate knowledge instead of career-advancing general knowledge-- that you'll burn out.

Leaving a job _stupidly_ is a mistake. If you're learning a lot and something mildly annoys you, quitting in a huff is the wrong way to go. When you get something good, hold on to it for as long as it lasts. But don't throw good time after bad, either, because that will lead to burnout just as quickly.

The truth on all of these is that there are tradeoffs. Is it a good idea to work long hours? If a month-long burst of 80-hour effort will buy you career advancement that'd otherwise take 2 years, then suck it up and work. If it's just going to get you more grunt work (which is usually the case) then blow it off. Similarly, with job tenure, I think the poker player's maxim-- be very selective, and very aggressive-- applies. Fold losing hands early, but when you have cards (i.e. a job that's doing a lot for your career) then play it hard.

</comment><comment><USER51> all true</comment>


Show HN: Profitablesideprojects.com – solo entrepreneurs reaching $1,000+ in MRR - <AUTHOR> http://profitablesideprojects.com <comment><USER2> Looks like it pulled stories from Hacker News. Curious if there were other sources.</comment>


Design Patterns of 1972 - <AUTHOR> http://blog.plover.com/2006/09/11/

<comment><USER2> In a similar vein, Axel-Tobias Schreiner wrote a book showing how you can build an OO structure within plain C: <http://www.cs.rit.edu/~ats/books/ooc.pdf>

</comment><comment><USER3> Thank god we have OO</comment>


Gobenchdb: Tracking Go Benchmark Data - <AUTHOR> http://blog.yhathq.com/posts/introducing-gobenchdb.html

<comment><AUTHOR> We needed a way to organize the data generated by go test -bench and write it to a database to track system performance over time. For this reason, we created the command line tool, gobenchdb.</comment>


Show HN: BobTheWebDev.xyz – AI Generated Web Dev Questions - <AUTHOR> http://bobthewebdev.xyz/ <comment><USER2> Post it's output to StackOverflow, then use the S.O. votes to tune the parameters of the model.

<comment><USER3> Please don't. Don't make stack overflow worse

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> For anyone asking about code/how it works, I found these links:

[http://bobthewebdev.xyz/about](http://bobthewebdev.xyz/about)

[https://blog.goodaudience.com/how-i-taught-an-ai-to-ask- web-...](https://blog.goodaudience.com/how-i-taught-an-ai-to-ask-web- development-questions-part-1-a614184a241)

It uses [https://github.com/crisbal/docker-torch- rnn](https://github.com/crisbal/docker-torch-rnn)

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for adding the links :) I hope to release the second part next week

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> Maybe needs a button for the person viewing the question to review if question title is legitimate, got two in a row that were illegible

<comment><AUTHOR> Good idea! I am using different settings to generate questions, and am planning to use the views data to fine tune it

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> This is really cool. Any plans on open sourcing it?

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you! If there's demand I'll be happy to do it. If you're interested in the process check out this post - [https://medium.com/@gabrielgrinberg/how-i- taught-an-ai-to-as...](https://medium.com/@gabrielgrinberg/how-i-taught-an-ai- to-ask-web-development-questions-part-1-a614184a241)

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Is it based on a Char-RNN?

<comment><AUTHOR> Yep, torch-rnn which is based on char-rnn - [https://github.com/jcjohnson/torch-rnn](https://github.com/jcjohnson/torch- rnn) (actually, a fork with some minimal tweaks to output more info on checkpoint files)</comment></comment>


Show HN: Today I launched DistroKid to help musicians upload to Spotify, iTunes - <AUTHOR> http://distrokid.com/

<comment><USER2> Awesome service. Is there any chance of having a song rejected? If so, on what basis? I'm all for services that make it easier to get onto these services, but as the price gets closer to zero I wonder what barrier is left. Will spotify/itunes end up like google results?

<comment><AUTHOR> Right now I'm playing it by ear (no pun intended). The goal isn't to make the stores a dumping grounds for low quality music. The goal is to make it easier for musicians to be prolific. Thanks for the note - this is definitely an area where I need to pay attention.

<comment><USER2> Great to know. I was more wondering if spotify/itunes and other services have a say in what get onto their service? Or is your service the final approval step?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> I have released some songs on Bandcamp.

What are the benefits to being in a large marketplace like iTunes?

I am very intrigued with Spotify being in the mix. Keep up the good work.

<comment><AUTHOR> It's just easier to tell people "check out my music - yeah I'm in iTunes/Spotify/Amazon etc" when you're in all the stores. Plus there's just a special satisfaction for a musician to be in the major stores -- at least that's how I feel as a musician.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I'm super intrigued, but given the services that are available to indie artists today... this sounds too good to be true. What's the catch?

<comment><AUTHOR> No catch. There's a small monopoly going on right now in the digital music distribution industry. That's why prices are artificially high. I aim to change that.

<comment><USER4> I think I love you.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Great concept. I will check this out for sure.</comment>


Show HN: Increase conversions and retention with event-based emails - <AUTHOR> http://www.getvero.com/dave

<comment><AUTHOR> Over the past few weeks we've been building a SaaS product that makes it easy to send event-based emails to your customers. When we initially started our company in mid-January we were building something completely different. Whilst working on that product we quickly found that setting up emails based on the events we were capturing in our analytics software was not a simple task.

We did some searching and talking to other startups and realised that we weren't the only ones with this problem (see this great post by stammy - <http://bit.ly/LcIGTL>). We began work in earnest.

What we've built allows you to drop in a JS snippet, pull in your customer data and events and start creating automated emails. We're in private beta and are keen to share what we've done with the startup community. We think it has some potential. What do you guys think?

Plus, we thought this landing page might be fun for a friday afternoon :).

</comment><comment><USER2> Remove the cursing. It's really hard to get that sassy style of writing to work well and often, like in this case, it just looks unprofessional.

Plus, I don't get why you censor it. If you're going to say "fucking" then say "fucking". Don't get shy all of a sudden with a compromised version. If you feel you need to censor yourself, then don't say it at all.

<comment><USER3> This. I bounced within seconds of seeing the cursing. It makes you look childish, guys.</comment></comment>


Previously classified 9/11 document released [pdf] - <AUTHOR> http://intelligence.house.gov/sites/intelligence.house.gov/files/documents/declasspart4.pdf <comment><USER2> Further evidence the Saudi government is a terrorist organization/family/cabal and did/may have had very good understanding of 9/11 prior to the attacks.

It's also further evidence that our continuing to uphold them as a model ally is absurd in the face of how we purport to feel about human rights.

Edit: even this document puts the word "ally" in quotes when speaking about Saudi Arabia.

Edit 2: upon further reading, not only may they have had knowledge of it, but they may have provided material support to the hijackers after they arrived in the US. Is there further information about this anywhere credible?

Edit 3: most information about the actions of these people after September 11 is still redacted.

Edit final: this release is pretty damning, although I'm not an expert in this field. There is maybe an angle here? Is the US government about to distance itself from SA? Or is something more damning about to become public? Tin-foil theories to be sure, but I feel like things like this rarely get released without a FOIA fight.

<comment><USER3> Tack on:

2 of the hijackers could possibly be Saudi intelligence officers

The US has a limited understanding of Saudi government involvement and their role is unknown.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Even with the redactions, hard to see how anyone can walk away from that report without being convinced Saudi Arabia attacked us on that day. However, Congressman Thomas Massie (who heavily pushed for this release) publicly announced he is very displeased with the redactions. Seeing as he has read the unredacted report, it leaves me feeling like we're still being lied to.

<comment><USER2> Agreed. I'm _very_ surprised it was released at all.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> I sure hope the takeaway from these documents becomes "We need to question our own executive branch and be more hesitant before spending 1.7trillion on a war" rather than "Let's get Saudi Arabia next!"</comment>


A cure for cancer? Israeli scientists say they think they found one - <AUTHOR> https://www.jpost.com/HEALTH-SCIENCE/A-cure-for-cancer-Israeli-scientists-say-they-think-they-found-one-578939 <comment><USER2> Already posted 3 times today.

Original: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19021632](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19021632)

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> This could be 'the' groundbreaking medical discovery of our century, if proven to work. I think I read some stats recently about how most people in the near future will not die of sudden conditions like heart failure etc but rather die due to slow killers like cancer (I will try to corroborate the reference here if I find it) and this may have a huge impact on humanity.</comment>


Does your product pass the toothbrush test? - <AUTHOR> http://versiononeventures.com/does-your-product-pass-the-toothbrush-test/

<comment><USER2> I'm reminded of Andrew Chen's post on Facebook DAU/MAU number [http://andrewchen.co/2012/05/16/quora-has-facebooks- daumau-a...](http://andrewchen.co/2012/05/16/quora-has-facebooks-daumau- always-been-50/)

Part of the reason that email is so sticky is that it has an incredibly high DAU.

<comment><AUTHOR> Agreed - just went through the list of product that pass the toothbrush test for me and Gmail is on top: Gmail, Google Search, Google Drive, Twitter, Facebook, Dropbox, Skype, Evernote, New York Times, Si.com. Commerce: Amazon, Frank & Oak.

<comment><USER2> Frank & Oak - seriously. You know that I love the guys, but a DAU for F&O. I think that I'm easily 2xMAU maybe a WAU. But no way am I a DAU for F&O.

Google Search

GMail/Google Calendar (or device specific version: Taskbox/Sunrise) Rapportive Google Hangout/Skype Twitter LinkedIn Dropbox/GDrive

Prismatic CardMunch Kik/iMessage/SMS/GChat

I have been off the Evernote. And I'm still trying to find a to do list that fits my workflow. I</comment></comment></comment>