Launch HN: Quell (YC S20) – Immersive gaming and combat workout - <AUTHOR> Hey HN,
We're Cam, Doug, Lorenzo and Martin, co-founders of Quell (https://quell.tech).
Quell is an immersive fitness game which guides players through an exciting, effective combat workout at home. Players fight enemies with a low-cost wearable which uses smart resistance bands to simulate real combat training. Our aim is to be Peloton meets gaming meets boxing, at 1/10th of the price. We launched on Kickstarter yesterday, and would love it if you checked us out! Here's the link: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/quelltech/quell-real-ga...
We started building Quell because for us, exercise wasn't fun; it was work. We'd tried all the stats tracking apps and the cycling simulators, but they weren't treating that root problem. Over time, as the novelty wore off, we were left with the feeling that working out was still boring and uncomfortable.
As big gamers, gamification seemed like an obvious solution. We looked at what was happening in this space and felt that exercise games tended to compromise on the exercise or the game. We believed that, if we could get both right, we could make something we'd want to play. Everything in the market was focussed on running, cycling or yoga/pilates, so we went with boxing as a more intense and cathartic alternative.
We realised that Quell could be a real business when we started talking to people about exercise. Everyone was facing the same two problems: obstacles, and a lack of reward. The absence of immediate rewards when you exercise means that you have to propel yourself using long-term benefits, and most of us are bad at this. On top of that, seemingly small barriers like weather, travel, set-up, knowledge and equipment sharing have a massive impact on people's ability to commit.
The team started working together in February, but we all had other things going on. Cam had just left his career in management consulting to do a design master's. Martin was wrapping up his PhD in sensor tech at Oxford. Doug was building a business providing remote working and development retreats. Lorenzo was doing a design master's to pursue a career in prosthetic design. None of us had the financial stability to make this our full-time job, so we decided to develop the product over a year or two in our spare time. After a month, we applied to YC with zero expectation of being accepted. Our idea was basically a punching bag with a screen, and we knew it wasn't where we wanted it to be. We saw the YC application as a forcing mechanism to put some rigour behind the business, and an exciting experience to go through.
Then Covid hit, and the target market went from 'people who don't like exercise' to 'people who don't like home exercise or running around the same park every day'. We went into overdrive, using all of our days off and lunch breaks to develop the product. Despite all this effort, the pace was glacial. All the workshops closed during lockdown, so we had no tools. We were separated in different parts of the UK, trying to build hardware via Zoom. Then YC accepted us, and we could finally focus! We left our jobs and degrees. Everyone moved into Cam's apartment. We bought a 3D printer, a sewing machine and a bunch of electronics and textiles. We spent all day every day looping through talking to users, collating insights, designing and prototyping.
We learned that no one wanted the hassle of a punchbag, but everyone loved the idea of feeling the satisfying physical resistance of punching something at home. We built a wearable which applied customisable resistance to punches through swappable elastic bands, and it landed well. We started looking at computer vision to translate player punches into the game, but our potential users hated the idea of setting up a camera. After hundreds of hours spent punching the air in our living room, we found that we could get high-accuracy, low-latency gesture recognition through a neural net applied to inertial measurement units in the gloves.
We made a quick video and website with our first prototype (link here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hrIegPSxko2JPzsztm_1UmV4iRO...), then started advertising on Facebook and Instagram to see how it landed. The response was incredible, with CPA coming in 75% lower than our benchmarks. We opened pre-orders to test whether these people would convert and got fifty orders in the first month. After drafting our bill of materials, we settled on a price of $200 for the wearable and $10/mo in subscription fees, which works out at less than half the average gym membership. With 55m active gamers paying for a gym membership pre-covid, we estimate a market size of $18bn.
With the financials sorted and the early market validation complete, we felt confident in building towards a Kickstarter. For the last month, we've been working hard on turning ideas into concept art into game content, making the product look and feel good, shooting the video, writing the copy, pricing, costing, and growing our sign-up list. We launched our Kickstarter yesterday, and have recieved over $60k in pledges in our first 24 hours. You can check out the full video of our new prototype at https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/quelltech/quell-real-ga....
We're continuing to develop the hardware and the game in parallel, and would love to hear what HN loves and hates, as well as any questions you might have. We'll be on here every waking hour (UK time) to respond as soon as humanly possible. Thank you! <comment><USER3> Love the idea, and I'd be very much interested in trying this out.

Having done a little bit of boxing, it's a pretty good full body workout. It's hard to say how the resistance bands would feel compared to a punching bag though. Also: how do they work for different punches like uppercuts?

How would you track blocking? How accurate is the position tracking? The tracking animation notably only measures one dimension (extension), not the direction in 3D. That seems quite hard just with the bands.

Another concern: I feel like for many users the punching motions would get boring really quickly.

Engaging game(s) would be key. Since it's all you do, the punching must be satisfying. Including making me "feel" the impact. That means: smooth animations with accurate position tracking, quality audio, ....

What I see in the video does not work so well for me. Having some variety would also be key. Eg have a basic boxing ring available for mindless punching, but also a more engaging RPG style game where you don't punch all the time - for longer sessions.

Building full-fledged quality games in addition to the hardware seems like a very big task.

Have you thought about searching for interesting indie games (including the various VR boxing variations) and looking for partnerships?

<comment><USER4> I also love this idea, and the body harness looks like a very innovative approach.

I agree with many of the concerns OP mentions, especially the need for a variety of engaging games. The demo game feels a little too cartoony for my taste, would love to see more titles in different styles.

Another concern I have is how can it help reinforce proper posture, body positioning, and footwork? I realize this is very difficult to address, but those fundamentals are extremely important and seem to me to be areas where many beginners could develop bad habits if not corrected somehow.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the feedback, and you've raised some great points.

We're absolutely on-board with the idea of multiple games - we have the launch title being developed (that you've seen in our current artwork), and others in mind. Out of interest, what would be your preferred style of game for combat fitness? We've had some good discussions around this in our Discord server.

To your concerns re: body posture and movement; you couldn't be more right about the importance of getting these aspects right. We have experience both within our team and our advisers covering everything from international boxing to prosthetic design - we are taking the ergonomics and science very seriously for this exactly reason.

<comment><USER4> For me personally, I would prefer a more realistic style fighting game for combat fitness where my opponent looks and moves like a real person. Or even something along the lines of the classic arcade fighting games like Mortal Kombat where the violence gets a little more graphic. Basically games that feel like they are targeted at adults instead of all ages family friendly. But I understand the need for variety, and applaud the progress made so far on this project.

<comment><AUTHOR> I can tell you we share that view - we're looking forward to growing out more games in the future, however we aim to make the launch time compelling to users of all ages, and that means getting the story absolutely right. There were definitely jokes in the team early on about licensing Mortal Kombat to up the ante of the fights!

<comment><USER5> After thinking about it for a day or so, I think what the Quell demo is missing for me is simplicity. Boxing is pretty fun by itself and there's a lot of potential depth in building up different combinations of punches and the rhythmic nature of the exercises. So a simple Wii Sports or even Dance Dance Revolution style trainer would appeal more to me than a cartoon style game. If I were eight years old, it would be absolutely the reverse, but what I want as an adult is just the boxing.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Here's old grouchy me talking:

I don't like subscription games, particularly games like this that don't seem to need any network connection at all to function.

I still play games that I bought over 30 years ago. Quell probably won't be still running their servers for the original game in 30 years, and if they are I'll have paid $4k for the privilege of renting this game indefinitely.

I get that I'm not the target audience, and for many people $5-10 per month feels like a better deal than $70 upfront for a AAA game, but I personally won't back something that is useless without a subscription fee.

If for for $X I could get the game, Y months of whatever the subscription provides (Events, whatever) and the guarantee that the game will still work when the servers shutdown or my subscription expires, that would totally interest me.

<comment><USER7> It looks like you get Quell single player free for life and the subscription is Quell +, I may have missed something where it mentions you need a constant internet connection though. Quote from the kickstarter: "Everyone who buys Quell gets the base game, for free, for life."

<comment><USER6> Oh, I'm suddenly interested again; thanks for pointing that out!

<comment><USER8> Happy to hear it! And to confirm, messiahtyler is correct—Quell+ provides additional content on top of the base Quell experience, enabling us to keep developing fresh experiences within the game.

<comment><USER6> I'm totally cool paying extra for premium content, I just don't want to be renting my video games :)

<comment><USER8> Hear, hear!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> > High Impact Exercise

I think you're using the wrong words there. "High Impact" workouts in the fitness world mean they are harder on your joints and tendons (think crossfit/hiit vs low impact like spin cycles).

Since you aren't punching anything and you're not jerking your body around, I'd imagine this is more mid-impact?

[https://www.humana.com/prevention-and-care/healthy-living- an...](https://www.humana.com/prevention-and-care/healthy-living-and- prevention/fitness-and-exercise/low-impact)

<comment><USER10> They're looking for "High Intensity" (the HI in HIIT)

<comment><USER11> That's true, thanks for the input! :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I know this currently isn't your focus, but please consider adding the option to just purchase the resistance strap setup. There are a lot of VR Fitness boxing games where people are trying to add more resistance to their VR Boxing workouts in order to get a better workout. They are buying weighted vests, but this would be a great thing to make the existing workout experience in VR even better.

<comment><USER13> Hey! :) Love this idea, and we will definitely consider it. Thank you for your input!

<comment><USER14> Exactly this ,please. I need something like this ASAP. And I would have bought Quell, but I am afraid shipping to my country would be expensive and problematic.

<comment><AUTHOR> We're coming as fast as we can! If you're unsure about shipping for now, you're very welcome to join our Discord server, where our community are chatting about all things gaming and fitness.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Looks fun, I have a Vive VR and enjoy workouts on it. Few questions:

I know next to nothing about being fit and working out, but would this workout target pretty much a single muscle group with resistance?

If it's all running on the phone, hows battery life? Between running the game and processing motion data what's the specs required?

I'm guessing a motion tracker in both hands and in the body to detect motion, but that'd drift if you allow movement. Are you planning on using any body- tracking ML with the phone's camera? Otherwise it sounds like the game will be a linear rail-road.

Finally, given it's elastic, how easy is it to hit yourself in the face if your arm gives out at full stretch?

<comment><USER13> Hey! Lorenzo from Quell here :) We're working super hard to make sure that Quell trains effectively different muscles group. We've been talking to professional athletes to find creative ways to do so, and are developing hardware and software features to make sure that Quell supports a varied workout that trains both upper and lower body. We don't know specific device specs yet, but we're really focussed on keeping the game light, so that users can run it on their mobile phones with no issue - this will also reduce the impact on battery life! :) Regarding the camera, it's something that we're considering for the future, but we're super proud to say that our accuracy is already particularly good, and not having to set up a camera is one less hassle for user experience! There's very little chance of you hitting yourself in the face: the elastic mechanism is made in such way that the resistance only kicks in midway through the punch! This increases safety and improves how satisfying the punches are, as many of our users told us!

Hope that answers your questions :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> This looks cool - but it would be 100% cooler if it was just a wearable, that I could customize to use with other games - for instance, World of Warcraft, punching to initiate an attack, and different motions to use items, 'click', etc.

I can't imagine using the wearable very much if the game itself isn't compelling - which, from the movie, looks a little wack

<comment><USER17> I agree, it would be awesome. Thinks like virzoom bike controller are pretty fun and unlock unexpected use cases (see [https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/5y15vx/elit...](https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/5y15vx/elite_dangerous_virzoom_perfect_vr_workout_xpost/) for a fun take on that)

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> I just hope the variety of movements goes beyond those seen in the video. So far it really looks like a boxing simulator and the repetitiveness of the Kickstarter video doesn't give the impression of an exciting game (you might consider cutting it to half the duration).

Don't get me wrong, I think it is a great idea. I just wonder how much better it will be than Wii Sports and if you will even achieve those levels. For that to happen, your game must be addictive. In my experience, that works best if the player can build things within the game (think Stardew Valley/Minecraft, not character cosmetics).

<comment><USER13> Hey! Lorenzo from Quell here. Thank you, really appreciate the feedback. We're working really hard to add movements to the game - for us, it is absolutely key that it doesn't feel like a boxing simulator. We're also working on many other aspects to make the game fun and enjoyable long-term: we're building a fully fledged story, a super wide variety of enemies, main characters, environments, movements and spells, and one of our stretch goals is to develop a roguelike mode, which would really push our users to their limit!

If you have more feedback / input, please do let us know! Thank you!

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> Congrats on raising a bunch of money!

To me, this looks very comparable to Fitness Boxing for the Nintendo Switch. I tried the demo of that intending to purchase, but then dropped out.

Regarding Fitness Boxing: \- I didn't feel comfortable with the workout: since I have never boxed before, I was confident that my form was bad and had too few pointers to feel good about it.

\- I ideally wanted a whole body workout, and there was no focus on the lower body at all.

\- It felt tough already without resistance bands, so I wouldn't be confident about whether those were bringing a useful benefit for me.

<comment><USER8> Thanks! We are very conscious of the fact that most of our users won't have experience with boxing, and plan to go to significantly greater lengths than games like Fitness Boxing to ensure that the player's technique is solid. Quell analyses your movements and tells you in clear terms how to improve. We'll also be including full-body movements like ducks and dodges to make it a more complete workout experience. To your last point—the resistance is adjustable, meaning you can dial it back to a point that you feel comfortable. Furthermore, adding resistance can actually help to make the experience feel more comfortable as it prevents the hard hyper-extension that can happen with straight shots when shadowboxing.

<comment><USER19> Thanks!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> I absolutely LOVE this. Really considering backing the kickstarter.

Some thoughts I had off the top of my head:

\- This seems feels like a good use case for VR to have something totally immersive. Not sure how steady VR headsets are these days though...

\- Are there mechanics to "level up", like an RPG? I think that type of structure motivates a lot of people to keep playing and "grinding"

\- What about P2P? It seems hard to pull-off, but could be really cool & entertaining on twitch!

Excited to see where you all go!

<comment><USER21> > Not sure how steady VR headsets are these days though...

VR headsets are pretty secure in general. The problem is comfort and the other is sweat. Comfort will vary headset to headset but there are lots of accessories and mods to deal with both issues.

The best thing about VR is immersion. There are also several really good boxing/fighting games out now. One of them is good enough where a pro-boxer uses it for training much like some pro drivers use driving sims to practice. The only things missing are resistance and feedback. I can see Quell's straps being used in VR. The best I've seen for feedback is wear a suit or vest of bunch of small speakers. It's not ideal, but it's better than nothing.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> Yes yes yes! Super excited for this, but... Make sure you get the balance between game and fitness program right. I tried the zombie run audio program a few years ago and didn't like it, it was just a regular fitness class but they would make zombie noises and yell at you to run harder _bEcAuSe ThE zOmBiEs ArE cOmInG_.

I want to play a game that has a side-effect of a fitness program. I'm not looking for a cut beach bod, I'm just looking to get mobile and get my heart rate up; I want a slightly more involved Wii Sports.

If it gets too fitness-y, I'm just going to pursue a proper fitness program and not waste my time with kitschy and campy video game facades.

<comment><USER23> I use Beat Saber and Pistol Whip on the Quest as my go-to lockdown workout. I break a sweat within 5 minutes most days, and before I know it it's been a 30 minute session. I'm not sure any fitness trainer would approve, but it gives me an excuse to get my arms and legs moving and get my heart rate up without me ever dreading the morning workout.

<comment><AUTHOR> Beat Saber is amazing, I can't wait to try the new Linkin Park tracklist! We've actually had some fun playing it with wristweights (and even the Gauntlet prototypes) to see how much more of a workout we can make it. First time you add wrist weights is a weird sensation - you go to move your hand in the game, and it's just so much slower!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> I am a couch potato who is eating and lazing myself towards an early death... but I've played VR games and found myself only noticing how exhausted I was when the game ended, as opposed to exercise, where I hate what I'm doing when I start and it only gets worse from there.

VR might be the mindhack that dramatically improves public health.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes! Great to hear you've found something that effectively distracts you from getting fit! For me it has always been adventure sport - I grew up having to distract myself with skateboards, climbing, mountain bikes, surfing, etc to keep myself healthy, because just running for the sake of it was awful!

Our take on this is that - like your experience with VR - there is a way to make exercise fun, and therefore distract you from the work you're having to do during it.

Out of interest do you own a VR headset currently?

<comment><USER24> I don't own one right now. Thinking about an Oculus Quest for Beat Saber or the HP Reverb G2 for Flight Simulator. Obviously the first is better for exercise.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> I guess this might be an effective way to get someone into working out, but ultimately it's just a gimmick similar to those late-night products that generally don't do much.

I'm a bit of a fitness buff, I've been working out pretty my whole life. I guess the things that jump out at me that are off:

1\. I wouldn't personally say 'we hate working out'. That to me is the wrong message. Working out is rewarding and worthwhile, for me it's something I look forward to every day. If you want to aim your messaging at people that feel that way, then say it that way - 'If you hate working out, this is for you!'. I'm not wild about that messaging either but at least it's not coming from the founders which to me is a big turnoff.

2\. This is not a full body workout. There appears to be no leg resistance and/or emphasis on leg training. I would be careful in how you present this in your messaging.

3\. I would position this as an intro to working out and partner with someone (if you can) like AthleanX.com which is are science based / physical trainer designed full body workouts. The reason I would try that is because you will likely have 2 outcomes of your users. Outcome 1 - they'll play it for a while, feel good about themselves and stop, or they'll maybe finish the full game experience, and stop. Outcome 2 is someone that really gets into this, sees some transformation of their upper body and wants to move on to a 'real full body workout' (which sorry this is not). That kind of partnership would be a win-win for both parties because it's a bit tough to jump right into a typical full body workout (esp. the AltheanX stuff which is really aimed at elite athletes), and having something like this as any easy onboarding process could be pretty cool. It would also be beneficial to have the expertise of a high- end, well designed full body workout help guide future workouts for your product. Right now, it really doesn't look like the movements, or punching is all that varied.

4\. I also have a VIVE/VR setup and like others, I use that as part of my workout; in my case it's more a post-workout workout. I don't expect it to really develop muscles, or improve my cardio all that much, but it's a nice way to burn some extra calories and get some cool hand-eye coordination / dex training into your workout that is otherwise hard to come by (Space Pirate Trainer, Pistol Whip, Beat Saber for example).

Either way good luck, I do think the future of fitness is in some form of VR, AR + interaction/gaming.

<comment><USER8> Hi there, Martin from Quell here. Thanks for sharing these insights!

To your first point, you're right—this is definitely not true for everyone. As a keen cyclist, I can say that getting out on my bike is definitely something I look forward to, too (less so now that London has returned to being one big puddle, but still)! We'll look into adjusting this to be more open-minded. You're also correct that, at present, it's not a full body workout. We're currently expanding the range of movements you can perform in the game to make it much more dynamic, including ducks and dodges, thereby providing a more complete experience here.

I love the idea of partnering up with a company like AltheanX. We're definitely keen to get people working out, and we know that our product can't be a replacement for a full gym, so partnerships seem like a brilliant way to provide a more complete workout.

Lastly, we too have enjoyed our experience with VR workouts. One of our early tests was to include wrist weights with games like Beat Saber, which makes it a much more challenging proposition. One problem that I'm sure you've encountered too, though, was that once the action got intense, we found the headset to be too sweaty and cumbersome for the experience to stay enjoyable for long. That's actually one of the big reasons why we started with a more traditional screen-based setup, but as VR lovers ourselves we're definitely keen to move into this space as people's adoption and comfort when using this amazing technology increases!

<comment><USER25> You're welcome Martin, happy to help out.

I'm curious if you have thought of having something like a burpee as one of a few different 'dodges' to move things toward a full body workout and activate the legs more?

I'll also second the idea of selling the harness separately. I think something like that + VR could be a big hit. I also wonder if you have considered creating a lower body harness to add resistance to the leg?

One thing I'll say that is appealing about your approach is that it's not VR. I find it somewhat unpractical to do a real workout in VR because current headsets are both bulky and very warm/hot to wear. The lens tend to fog up along with just sweating like mad, it's just not ideal. This is mostly a problem that'll solve itself as future HMD design presumably shrink and become less intrusive/bulky. Generally I think no headset like this is a big plus for you guys.

<comment><USER11> Absolutely! We're planning to implement movements like burpees to give users the possibility for High Intensity full body workouts! We've chosen not to do Vr based on user feedback: people seem to not like it. They find it cumbersome, heavy, sweaty and annoying, and we want to provide a seamless fitness gaming experience! We will still explore porting to VR in the future, of course! :)

Regarding lower body workouts, we'll start by adding sensors to the legs if we reach that specific stretch goal. We'd love to add resistance too, if it's feasible! :)

Thank you for your input!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> Looks good, good luck with it!

I know for me I'd get pretty bored with doing just one thing (here, boxing, Peloton bike riding, etc.), even if the online "experience" varies things.

Also, while it's good for burning calories, it's just hitting (har!) one set of muscles. I'm doing a broad range of exercises through a streaming video service, including various weights/resistance training, and a yoga/tai- chi/pilates class that's really improved my balance.

So, for me, variety is something to shoot for.

Congratulations on the successful kickstarter!

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks! After the past few months with our heads down it's been so great to share what we've been doing with the world!

Variety is absolutely something to shoot for. Personally I've always been big on 'adventure' sports - I find that the distraction from the fact I'm working out allows me to have fun, and still stay (reasonably) fit! Not so easy to do when I'm back around home though - all these activities require time away...so building Quell allows for a more exciting workout whilst staying indoors (something that became a lot more relevant this year!)

One thing to note is that whilst the Gauntlet delivers resistance to upper- body motions, boxing is very much a full body workout. We're exploring a few different ways to maximise the core and lower-body elements of this within the game, but this is no case of skipping leg day!

Which streaming video service are you using? Any key parts of it that you think make it stand out against everything else you've tried?

<comment><USER26> If you're still reading comments :-) I remembered a few other things Les Mills does that are great.

They have a lot of training videos, several for each class of exercise they do. They're in-depth, and really show you the form.

They add tips to the actual work-outs, so you're constantly reminded of good form.

They have alternatives to most of the exercises, so you can modify them if you have (e.g.) knee problems, or aren't up to full push-ups, etc.

They do good cool-down routines at the end of most videos, and have a number of cool-down-only videos you can watch for the others. Not everyone thinks highly of post work-out cool-down/stretching, but a lot of the people who seriously study exercise recommend it.

<comment><AUTHOR> Ah a Les Mills fan! I have several friends who love the training too, although I haven't heard much about the on-demand stuff until now. Thanks for sharing it!

How has the community element of LM translated to their app? Do you still have ways of engaging or competing?

<comment><USER26> As far as I know, there's no competing in the app; can't say I've explored every crevice but I haven't seen it.

There is a Facebook group (which I haven't joined) which is, I gather, more supportive than competitive. They do videos every once in a while where they get their trainers/directors to either discuss techniques or answer Q&A. It's support-oriented.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> hi! I'm an amateur martial artist and this looks cool! a lot of the training we do is for instance a single kick 100 times and getting the form right. it'd be a shame if a total beginner put on the wearable and punched with awful form. maybe you can make correct punches cause more damage(like a crit) so that players can get instant feedback of their form. Mike Tyson for example should be able to knock out a baddie in half as many hits as me. Imho it's counterproductive to learn the wrong way and it's really really hard to unlearn.

another option is skills drilling like minigames for players who want to level up without necessarily advancing in the game.

During covid quarantine I haven't been able to train with my teacher and I really miss it.

<comment><USER8> Hi, Martin from Quell here. Glad you like the sound of Quell, and totally agree that coaching on proper form is going to be key. We absolutely plan to make it so that, to succeed in the game, you need to be hitting hard, fast—and with good technique. We'll be coaching our players by analysing their form and giving them clear guidance on how to improve, as well as providing training throughout to make sure that they stay on point. Love the idea of using minigames to keep reinforcing this!

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> Backed it, since it looks pretty fun.

Out of curiosity, are there plans to have it track body motion (eg. via IMUs in the chest strap part)? One of the most enjoyable arcade light gun experiences is "Police 911 2", which is a light gun game that tracks the users' body so that they can take cover. I'd guess it would be fun if one can dodge attacks by ducking/leaning.

<comment><USER8> Thank you so much! As we continue to expand the move set we are absolutely working on full body movement, including ducks and dodges. We want to keep our players moving!

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> Saw a similar Product, but with direct impact training. A partnership with [https://joinfightcamp.com/](https://joinfightcamp.com/) might be a great thing, especially, if you added sensor pads for the feet to record leg kicks.

With your product, I'm reminded of Wii Boxing.

<comment><AUTHOR> Great comment, thanks for the suggestion. Fightcamp are actually another former YC company - they started as Hykso punch trackers before pivoting to Fightcamp more recently. They are approaching the more conventional fitness market - like Peloton but with boxing, and their prices and model reflect this.

With Quell we're more focused on the immersive gamification - using combat fitness alongside a compelling story to engage users who find existing fitness gamification falls short of what they need to motivate themselves.

We would love to add sensor pads for kicks - Check out our stretch goal for it on the Kickstarter page!

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> Nice work on the product and video. It looks fun and it was easy to see what you're trying to accomplish.

That being said, with a $200 price tag and $10/mo subscription, why would someone invest in this instead of VR? Comparatively, VR seems to have a lot more versatility with regards to tracking and the types of activities people can enjoy, one of which is fitness related games.

With Quell, a person is limited to a single game, with one type of motion. I can't help but think this feels similar to someone selling a standalone VR system that could only play Beat Saber, and that doesn't seem like a very good value proposition.

<comment><USER8> Thanks for the kind words about the product. Totally understand the reservations about the subscription service. The value add here is that by subscribing, you gain access to a steady stream of new areas, enemies and modes that will keep Quell exciting. The base game will still have a lot to keep coming back to, but the subscription will help us run the development of this new content so that the experience stays fresh. We'll also be opening up the hardware to other developers, including those in VR, since we know that broadening the ecosystem can only help ensure people have a reason to keep using Quell long-term.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> So not the existing, moderately popular VR game called Quell?

[https://store.steampowered.com/app/534230/Quell_4D/](https://store.steampowered.com/app/534230/Quell_4D/)

<comment><USER8> Hi, this is Martin from Quell—looks like fun! We realised that Quell is not necessarily a unique name, but felt that it captured the spirit of what we were doing too well to pass up on. A little competition never hurt, right?

<comment><USER32> > A little competition never hurt, right?

Optimism is fine, but realistically, yes, competition over a name for another video game can definitely hurt you.

<comment><USER31> It's also slightly disrespectful to your peers.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> How do you think this compares to Nintendo's Ring Fit Adventure?

<comment><AUTHOR> We actually love Ring Fit! Have you tried it?

We managed to get one of the first copies available after it had sold out through the lockdown, and have put in a good few hours over our lunchbreaks to benchmark against it. In our opinion Nintendo has done a really good job, and we even managed to break a sweat playing it.

That said, Ring Fit Adventure is limited to Switch users, and the game itself was not compelling enough to build a real fitness routine around (if Peloton and Zwift are too far in one direction, then RFA is too far in the opposite). It's taught us a lot about how important certain aspects from the game design will be as we continue building the Quell game world though...and anything that is encouraging people to look after their health gets a big thumbs up from us.

<comment><USER34> I've enjoyed Ring Fit Adventure but it has some downsides I've noticed. Just so you have another fitness-game-user's perspective:

\- Gamification does sometimes interfere with the workouts and/or workout enjoyability. The tasks that were gameplay-optimal were often either tediously easy or exhaustingly targeting the same muscles repeatedly.

\- Not enough cardio opportunities in the game, IMO. You get interrupted from the jogging sections repeatedly. Only a couple of the skill moves targeted cardio at all really.

\- Lots of downtime and fiddling with menus and only semi-skippable instructions/tutorial videos of things you've done before. Enemy animations even for non-actions. Squeezing one's smoothies while dorky music plays. A half-hour workout took more like 50 minutes.

\- Difficulty of exercises not reflected in their impact. Partly due to the fact that each person finds different exercises difficult and the game had no way of accounting for that.

\- Sweat! I sweat a lot during any workout and I felt gross wearing the leg- strap repeatedly and the non-washable ring grips. I can guarantee I'd make the Quell gear stink in a few months max and would need a cheap way to wash them and replace padding that wears out.

The rhythm game section they added in a more recent update is super fun, though. I wish it were incorporated into the main game. Overall, I like RFA and have benefited from adding it sporadically into my exercise routines. I could definitely be in the market for Quell.

<comment><AUTHOR> This feedback is great, thank you so much for sharing!

I agree about the rhythm section and some of the menu downtime. As for the sweating, any game in the fitness space needs to recognise this! We're making sure the Gauntlet can be washed just like any fitness kit should be for this exact reason!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> I like the idea, but the wearable doesn't appeal to me. You say it is like a game, but it really feels like this product is pushing serious fitness work. The problem with that is that people that are serious into fitness go to the gym. Is it even safe to wear those bands for the arms? I don't like the theme of the game too - seems disconnected from target userbase. I want to fight other players, not silly robots.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the feedback, it's really helpful for us to hear you raise these points. The workouts are designed to meet your personal fitness level - <USER2> resistance bands can be swapped out easily, and different parts of the game focus on strength and cardio, meaning you can set the workouts to the goals you're chasing.

As for the story - you say you want to fight other players - what does that game look like to you? We're always interested in these ideas for future game titles we can bring into the platform. If you'd like to join our Discord channel I'd be happy to chat about this further in there.

<comment><USER35> If this was purely a game and not a fitness gadget I would be interested. I'd be really curious if it was a good boxing game + this stuff to recognize movement from your hand (not these bands though). Would be cheaper too. But anyhow punching big robots/creatures just seems wrong - they seem to be heavy and my hand would just hurt lol. Also, when you use the word gamification it makes it crystal clear your game design knowledge and intentions are very limited. Don't take me wrong, I'm just being plain honest. Games > fitness, and this would make an awesome game. Particularly if it was competitive multiplayer :D (boxing and coop also doesn't seem right to me)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> As if we nerds didn't already have enough advantages over the general population. /jk

srsly this is a great idea and a great price point; I'd buy it

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks, great to hear you like it!

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> This is genius, congrats on launching!

In your position I would look to consider 2 things:

1) Add leg straps for kicks! That's a killer ab exercise and would work great with your concept. 2) Let other devs make use of the hardware asap! Your strenght is clearly in the hardware. There are tons of game developers who could create incredible games with this. How great would be UFC game with this?

Good luck!

<comment><USER8> Thanks for your reply! We are definitely exploring full-body exercises and totally agree that leg straps would make this even more effective. To your second point—we absolutely intend to open our hardware up to 3rd party applications/developers in the future, as we know that broadening the types of experience is key to longevity with a system like this

</comment></comment><comment><USER38> Do you have any plans to allow 3rd party development for the hardware? From my experience with VR, this looks like it could be really fun but get old quickly without some variety.

Also, how are you doing the tracking? I don't see any external sensors mentioned, is it just IMU based? Because anything less than perfect sub millimeter motion tracking has become unacceptable these days.

<comment><USER8> Hi, Martin from Quell here. We're definitely keen to open up the platform to 3rd-party developers, as well as continuing to develop the core game to keep the product engaging over time.

We are indeed using IMUs to track the player's movements, and agree that high- accuracy motion tracking is one of the keys to making the experience really compelling and immersive. It's been a blast so far to feel the experience improve with each iteration of the game and software!

</comment></comment><comment><USER39> No motion tracker for legs

 _cries in Muay Thai_

<comment><AUTHOR> Check out our stretch goals - if we can get past $2m by 27th September then kickboxing mode is coming for you ;)

<comment><USER40> Can you post a link to those? Maybe it's me, but I cant find them on the kickstarter page.

<comment><USER11> Hey! There's no way to share a direct link to a section of the KS page unfortunatey, but it's section 12, right after the "Reward tiers" :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER41> This is really great guys keep going ! It is amazing to see IDE fellows (I'm IDE alumni) working on something that can help many people during these lock- down times.

In terms of feedback for me it would be great to have group challenges or teams of people joining in for a workout.

</comment><comment><USER42> This is really cool! And congratulations on hitting your Kickstarter goal! This reminds me a bit of Wii boxing game that I liked, I really like this product. Your product also might have a market in fitness classes (once those reopen in the future). Would it be possible in the future to virtually box another person adding pvp to the product?

<comment><USER8> Hi, Martin from Quell here. Thanks for the kind words! Our own experiences with Wii Boxing have definitely been a touchstone for us; although we're developing a game with a completely different setting and style, I can say that I personally really enjoyed Wii Boxing for how it let you just pick it up and fight with your friends. For this reason, we're definitely working on a PvP mode!

We'd also love to see this used in gyms and fitness classes, and have been gathering insights from local gyms around London on how best to do this. Despite dealing with their own difficulties as a result of Covid-19, they provided some great insights that helped us to shape the product into something that we feel is compelling and effective, even to committed fitness folk.

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> Why is a YC company, perhaps the kind of company with the most access to capital, on Kickstarter? I get that it's free capital but it's a terrible look. I will wait until you have something to ship, or if YC underwrites you and says that they will refund Kickstarters if you fail to deliver.

<comment><USER43> Kickstarter is not the same as venture capital (and is certainly not 'free capital'). It's validation that actual customers are interested in the product and want to buy/use it. There are certainly risks associated with backing a project as a customer, but presumably the folks backing this campaign feel like the benefit is worth the risk.

<comment><USER24> It absolutely is free capital, in the same way that a 0% interest bank loan would be free capital. You don't have to give any interest, any equity, or any collateral in case of failure. How much freer does capital get?

<comment><USER44> Reputation has a value, and companies/founders who fail to deliver on a crowdfunding campaign incur a huge reputational cost.

Investors are far more willing to support founders after an earlier failure than crowdfunding customers are after an unfulfilled campaign.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> It's a cool idea but the combat looks very slow paced and boring from the kickstarter video.

If you have some games which require faster reactions and speed of punching then it could become more interesting.

Are you planning to allow modding of the games?

What about having bands in other positions to enable using the biceps and shoulders?

<comment><USER13> Hi Crucio! Lorenzo from Quell here.

We're improving the gameplay every day, and with Kickstarter funding we'll be able to really bring it to the next level. We absolutely think it's key to have fast reaction times :)

We're really interesting in opening the platform up to developers, including for modding!

Regarding the resistance bands: we've tried a wide range of different positions for the bands, and we're happy to say that the current design provides really effective muscle training. But I totally see your point, and we'll be constantly looking to improve our Gauntlet Wearable with even more resistance!

Thank you for your feedback :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER46> This looks like fun, backed it. There is a lot of difficult pieces that have to come together for this to work though, and it is not just the hardware, if the game itself isn't good enough then the whole thing falls apart. I really enjoyed playing Beatsabre on Oculus.

<comment><USER8> Hi! Thanks so much for the support. We love Beat Sabre as well—in fact, one of our early tests was to strap weights to our wrists and try to play the game with the added resistance. It was a fun experiment, and frankly pretty hard work!

Also agree that there's quite a few moving parts to this project. We're looking forward to sharing more details of how the game will provide an exciting and varied experience!

</comment></comment><comment><USER47> So....it's like an over priced version of the wii version Punchout with a built in heart monitor?

Why would i get this instead of just buying a used wii or a vr system?

No offense, i thought the Peloton was stupid too and their ads were horrible. I was so happy when i stopped getting ads for that thing.

<comment><USER48> I found Wii Sports gave me _nasty_ RSI in a way I'd never experienced before if I tried to play it "seriously" for any length of time. All that vigorous motion but with no weight or resistance was really, really bad. It also allowed a much faster pace of action than the real sports it mimicked, which probably didn't help—no stopping to fetch the ball or wait for people to get into position in tennis or baseball, for instance.

Waggling the controller with one's wrist was more effective in game and didn't hurt after 15-20 minutes like playing "for real" did. It also wasn't really any more fun than playing with a normal controller—so, fun, but nothing special.

I'd expect to hurt myself trying to get a workout with something like this, based on that experience.

<comment><USER8> Hi, Martin from Quell here. As someone who shares this exact experience, it's something we have been thinking about from day one when building Quell. If we make something that causes injury or can easily be "tricked" into thinking that the player has done something they haven't, we have failed in our core goal of making a fun, accessible workout that can be enjoyed at all fitness levels.

We're working in consultation with boxers and boxing trainers to ensure that the game teaches users proper form. To break through your enemies defences and succeed in the game, you'll need to perform precise, accurate strikes with good technique. In addition, our wearable prevents you from hyper-extending when throwing straight shots, which can otherwise cause injury.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER49> This is amazing! Really excited to see where this goes, good luck :)

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you!

</comment></comment><comment><USER50> The "Gauntlet" looks like it would be too chafing. I don't want to work out only to have rashes and bruises in my armpits and wrists.

<comment><USER13> Hey! Lorenzo from Quell here. It's super important to us that that never happens. We've tested the Gauntlet with a lot of users, with different body types, and have never had any problems like chafing. We're keen on maintaing that through high quality design and materials.

Thank you for your input!

</comment></comment><comment><USER51> It turns me off that there is a subscription TBH when it doesn't really seem like a subscription worthy thing, especially at $10/month

<comment><USER8> Hi! Can understand the reservations about the subscription service. The base Quell game is free for life. Our subscription service provides access to a steady stream of new areas, enemies and modes that will keep Quell exciting. The base game will still have a lot to keep coming back to, but the subscription will help us run the development of this new content so that the experience stays fresh for longer. We'll also be opening up the hardware to other developers, including those in VR, since we know that broadening the ecosystem can only help ensure people have a reason to keep using Quell long- term.

</comment></comment><comment><USER52> Will Linux be supported on PC? This looks really interesting to me, as I am getting lazy without anyone to fight during the pandemic.

</comment><comment><USER53> Why has no one just created a VR punching bag tracker that gets tracked in physical space, with trackable VR punching gloves?

<comment><AUTHOR> Good question. From our research into this possible direction early in Quell's journey, we deduced the risk with existing VR tech was unappetising. If the game lags by a few hundreds of a second, you could punch when the bag is in a slightly different position to your VR perception of it...which could lead to broken bones, sprains and torn ligaments. It will absolutely happen when the tech catches up!

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> Any chance for releasing the straps on their own without the quell platform? I would be interested in using them with VR.

<comment><USER8> Hi there! Martin from Quell here. At this time, we don't currently have a separate release of the wearable planned. Though we're releasing it only as part of the full Quell system at the moment, we love VR and are keen to move into this space as well. Offering the harness as a standalone is definitely one option we've considered, so it's great to hear that people are interested in this! We're also exploring releasing a VR port of the game down the line.

</comment></comment><comment><USER54> This looks awesome. I hope you all succeed.

<comment><USER8> Martin from Quell here—thank you so much for the kind words!

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> No low line or roundhouse kicks?

<comment><USER8> Hi there! We'd love to include kicks as well, though we've had to put it as a stretch goal due to the additional complexity it presents for development at this stage. Expanding the range of movements is definitely in our roadmap either way :D

</comment></comment><comment><USER55> That's pretty dope! Any plans for adding VR at some point?

<comment><USER31> I assumed VR when I read "immersive". Is that just me?

<comment><AUTHOR> Can see where you're coming from - VR's key USP is often touted as'immersion'.

For us, it's about building something that is exciting enough to distract you from the workout you're doing - the gaming takes over from the awareness of your exercise in your mind. There are a number of ways to do this, some would include VR. For now we've opted against it as our users found VR fitness too sweaty and uncomfortable in its present form.

Where do you stand on VR? Do you have any of the headsets currently?

<comment><USER31> I'm a big fan of VR in general (but looking forward to improvements in comfort).

How sweaty you find it is surely a function of your local climate and availability of air-con. I wouldn't play Beat Saber in the summer without good air flow but then I'm in the UK where air-con is fairly rare in the home.

But I can happily play for 45-60 minutes when it's not super hot in the house.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER56> Looks cool indeed. I guess I need it more in office hours, lol

<comment><USER8> Hey there, Martin from Quell here. Thanks for giving us a look. Glad you like the sound of Quell! And if I understand your last point correctly, I can say that as it continues to develop, it's becoming more and more of a cathartic way to let off some steam...

</comment></comment><comment><USER57> No resistance for the lower body?

Can't skip leg day.

<comment><AUTHOR> Never skip leg day!

We looked into leg resistance bands early on in the design stage, and user tests led us away from them. In reality, you can get plenty of resistance for the lower body from gravity and the right exercises - we're working on some different game dynamics to introduce things like squats and lunges.

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> I think this is a tough concept. It looks kind of fun, but I don't think I'd believe people will pay $200 up front and then $120/year to play this game. My big concern is that you're not clear on where this falls between an exercise service and a fun video game.

* Multiplayer boxing is fun, but it's not going to be that much different than wii boxing or whatever VR equivalents are out there now. It's definitely not a noteworthy exercise tool.

* peloton sells a lifestyle w/ live classes. You're selling a video game. I think it's misleading yourselves to think about this as a subscription product because I don't think you'll be able to do much in the way of interesting content over time. You're much closer to ring fit adventure. Your main competitors, if released right now would be Fitness Boxing on the Switch and BoxVR. I don't know these games, but they turned up on a quick google. Reading through some of the other comments of people who are optimistic about this concept, they don't seem to know about these titles either, which is probably cause for concern.

* Making it a fantasy story based game is fun... but now you're locking in your target market to people who like those kinds of things and decisively not doing an "exercise" or "hardcore" aesthetic. I'm concerned that's not a big overlap with people who want to pay for an exercise service. Ring Fit adventure is kind of close to this and it sold 4 million units, so its not a BAD decision, but its a stark contrast to all of the value props that something like peloton pushes

* you say gesture recognition. I think a lot of people are expecting hand tracking and will be disappointed. I'm concerned you added spells because there's just not enough variety on the punches.

* doesn't look like you have any people with game dev experience on the team.

* kickboxing is a fun stretch goal but realistically I see nothing but difficulty in implementing that.

* I think it will be difficult to make a boxing game that people want to play every day for a long time. You said hundreds of enemies in your video. I think that's highly unlikely to happen. That's a huge huge challenge for any game dev shop. Judging from the clips, I don't think you really know how the game works. That is, how the player chooses what actions to take, and what creates the difficulty. Off the top of my head, the ways you can make a boxing game are puzzles / patterns (punch out), rhythm, ring fit-just-do-reps-and-follow-prompts style, and then something dynamic like wii boxing. Which of those can you choose and make a game that is compelling enough to play every day? Wii boxing sounds enticing but its really quite difficult to make a substantial game out of this. BoxVR and Fitness Boxing are rhythm games from the look of it.</comment>


Why Farmed Fish Are Taking Over Our Dinner Plates - <AUTHOR> http://on.wsj.com/116mBPC

<comment><USER2> [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8610456](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8610456)

</comment><comment><USER3> Great progress on fish farming. Catching wild fish doesn't scale; it leads to overfishing and population collapse. This scales. Many fish have been farmed for decades, but they're usually the ones at the bottom of the food chain. Tuna are further up. I wonder if this reduces the mercury content in tuna. Predator fish concentrate mercury, enough so that pregnant women shouldn't eat them.

Giant step backwards on web page display. You _will_ watch all the embedded graphics, or else.

</comment><comment><USER4> Not easy to get to the original article but worth a read. Basically it describes Japan's progress in farming bluefin tuna which is a particularly difficult species to farm.

<comment><USER5> The article link from yesterday works straightaway for me:

[http://online.wsj.com/articles/why-farmed-fish-are-taking- ov...](http://online.wsj.com/articles/why-farmed-fish-are-taking-over-our- dinner-plates-1415984616)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8610456](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8610456)

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> I feel like whoever did the web-ui for that article needs to (re)read this: [http://bost.ocks.org/mike/scroll/](http://bost.ocks.org/mike/scroll/) rather than mimicing it poorly (previous HN discussion: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8551724](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8551724))

For example here is another article that has much better scroll behaviour and provides a much better smoother user experience (at least on my machine):

[http://www.nytimes.com/newsgraphics/2013/10/27/south- china-s...](http://www.nytimes.com/newsgraphics/2013/10/27/south-china-sea/)

Particularly when the images appear, on the nytimes article text keeps scrolling providing continuous feedback, in the wsj article opacity slowly changes, which is a lot harder to notice, and made me think for a second that the page got stuck, plus forced me to scroll a lot to move the page forward.

I guess the general rule of thumb is that text scrolls up the page as normally as any other website (albeit with perhaps more spacing between paragraphs on image / video dense pages), and images/videos will fade in and out in the background using a fixed position. Then when it's a dense text-only section the image will lock into the top/bottom of the text block and scroll with it.

Still a really good article! Good to see market solutions are developing in response to over-fishing problems.</comment>


A Phone Company Run by Drug Traffickers - <AUTHOR> https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/wjwbmm/inside-the-phone-company-secretly-run-by-drug-traffickers <comment><USER2> There's some serious dishonesty going on here, trying to portray end to end crypto as some kind of horrible thing only criminals use. Yet I'd imagine the combined userbases of WhatsApp, Signal and Apple iMessage make up the majority of all message traffic worldwide, excluding countries that restrict internet traffic significantly. For example, you can't subpoena to get the messages in _any_ of these... this is the same for all E2E chats.

It is not a bug that police and governments can not access and hear all of your "offline" communications. It is likewise not a bug that police and governments can not access and see all of your online communications.

This could be an interesting story if half of it wasn't just unabashed fearmongering.

I look forward to going to prison some day for dual booting my computer because some criminals did it on phones once!

<comment><USER3> I expected better reporting from Vice

<comment><USER4> Expect nothing from VICE. Sensationalism is their specialty.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I wonder how many of these "secure phone" companies - if not being run by drug cartels themselves like this in this instance - are actually being run as honeypots by the FBI/DEA? Would be a great idea if they are so popular in the crime world. A bit like how Tor sites are run as honeypots too.

<comment><USER6> They may be running, no doubt on that. But if they don't "scatter" their operations and try to get monopoly or oligopoly of the market they'll in trouble because nobody will trust this "companies".

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> On a similar note, I wonder, what kind of ERP software do modern organized crime use? Do they use SAAS? Regular commercial software or FOSS installed on private cloud?

In other words, does the dark web have a SAAS Salesforce equivalent for the bad guys?

<comment> throwaway-ggfds Homegrown on private clouds. Rackets have moved from offline security to online security. Large mafias are highly sophisticated tech wise.

<comment><USER8> You're anonymous anyway, you may as well tell us more. ;)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I know a guy who was deep in the online steroids world like 10 years ago. He would find clients on body building forums. There was eventually a bust and he didn't get nabbed although many other associates of his did. He couldn't believe at the time that a bust could have happened given how minor that was compared to narcotics.

The most interesting part of the story was that during the time he was under investigation he was completely overcome with fear and worry, so bad he was vomiting blood. Once he got through it without any charges he completely got out of drug dealing and became a software engineer.

I don't think people who dabble in crime truly understand how nerve wracking it is until something really bad happens. Effective criminals are sociopaths who don't experience fear the same way as most people. It's so much better to work in legal industries.

<comment><USER10> There's probably some medical reason for vomiting blood, I don't think paranoia/other psychological causes could explain that.

<comment><USER11> Isn't it pretty common to get ulcers from merely stress / "psychological causes" and also pretty standard for ulcers to cause you to vomit up blood? I don't think this is strange....

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> The Dutch police managed to crack similar phones a while ago [1] since crypto is difficult to implement. It gave them good insights.

[1]: [https://cacm.acm.org/news/229428-dutch-police-fight-crime- by...](https://cacm.acm.org/news/229428-dutch-police-fight-crime-by-cracking- pgp-phones/fulltext)

</comment><comment><USER13> Can someone tell me why a special custom phone would be necessary? What could it possibly give you that Signal and a fingerprint lock doesn't? Is it just a case of criminals not understanding the technology? I'd actually be more suspicious of a phone that has been hacked apart by a shady company.

<comment><USER14> Spies would never use obviously custom phones for this reason. The goal is to blend in, not stand out. Especially when the adversary has total network access.

As the CIA learned in Lebanon when their network got rolled because Hezbollah noticed certain phones left off most of the time except the occasional use before being turned off the network again - very unusual behaviour which exposed their trade raft.

The majority of drug dealers don't face this level of threat, depending on the country, where any level of encryption and careful phone protocols would go a long way. But the very big ones will as the bigger agencies have much broader reach and the NSA shares with DEA all the time.

WhatsApp was probably the best thing to happen to drug dealers in a long time. But most of them are too dumb to know that and people will always be the greatest weakness regardless of all the fancy tech.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> I wish there was any momentum to offer that level of privacy and security for us normal consumers.

</comment><comment><USER16> This article is atrocious yellow journalism stoking fear about encryption. Yes, people that used to traffick drugs started selling phones, possibly using their old network for sales. And yes, these bad dudes sent some thugs to threaten and assault a business competitor.

But what were the capabilities of these scary, criminal kingpin, super secret, drug-trafficking phones? "[They] run software for sending encrypted emails or messages, and use their own server infrastructure for routing communications. Sometimes the devices have the microphone, camera, and GPS functionality removed. Some also have a dual-boot mode, where powering on the device as normal will show an innocuous menu screen with no sensitive information. But if certain buttons are held down when turning the phone on, it will reveal a secret file system containing the user's encrypted text messages and other communications. With these tweaks, the ordinary methods for law enforcement to intercept messages are cut-off—police can't simply get an ordinary phone tap or subpoena messages from a company; the texts are typically only available in a readable form on the users' devices."

These should be the capabilities of every phone on planet earth! They used off the shelf phones, CopperheadOS, extra security configuration, data only SIMs, and a layer of anonymization since the customer didn't have their name on the SIM, and probably a custom app for the deniability mode. That's it.

The lede of the article is about a reporter's murder that could have had something to do with _any_ of the reporter's many organized crime subjects, not just the phone company. He just happened to be hanging out with the MPC guy that night. It's not illegal to sell encryption. I don't know why the author here is trying so hard sensationalize encrypted phones as having to do with murder, fear, strip clubs, drugs, etc. -- I hope it's just clicks.

<comment><USER8> > data only SIMs

How does this help make the phone owner anonymous? Can't you still do triangulation with a data-only SIM?

<comment><USER17> Presumably the SIMs were anonymously bought/registered. There's no link to the user. If you knew the drug kingpin was using a particular sim/phone (IMSI/IEMI), you can track it, but that's like looking for a needle in a haystack (no intercepted texts/calls to go by).

<comment><USER18> IMEI is transmitted in every packet communicated with a phone, not just calls and texts.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Gotta appreciate the sheer research and length of this article... Can't read it all.</comment>


16 Leadership Lessons from a Four Star General - <AUTHOR> http://www.farnamstreetblog.com/2014/03/stanley-mcchrystal-my-share-of-the-task/

<comment><USER2> "For soldiers, the choice between popularity and effectiveness is ultimately no choice at all. Soldiers want to win; their survival depends upon it. They will accept, and even take pride in, the quirks and shortcomings of a leader if they believe he or she can produce success."</comment>


WikiLeaks: ISIS Tunnels Blown Up by MOAB Were Built by CIA - <AUTHOR> http://www.mediaite.com/online/wikileaks-isis-tunnels-blown-up-by-moab-were-built-by-cia/ <comment><USER2> WikiLeaks quotes a 2005 NYTimes article in a tweet that tunnels exist that were _financed_ by the CIA and fabricates idea that the exact tunnels involved in the recent strike were directly built by the CIA. Nothing coming from an actual leak WikiLeaks is releasing.

<comment><USER3> Wikileaks has a 100% (one hundred percent) truth record. I trust them more than any other news source in the world. The truth is ugly and people need to face it.

<comment><USER4> Is this suppose to be /s? Because Wikileakes __does not __have 100% reliability and has proven to be biased.

<comment><USER5> Were there any document dumps shown to be inauthentic?

I don't think it's in dispute that Wikileaks is biased; it has an overt anti- American military/foreign policy stature. This is informed from Assange's experiences and upbringing. Assange shouldn't be expected to release documents that contradict his narrative. We don't get mad at RT.com for failing to expose Russian corruption or Voice of America for failing to report on U.S. bombings of noncombatants.

I agree WL's press releases and Tweets are inaccurate and opportunistic.

<comment><USER6> I do get mad at those publications, though. I hate that people who claim moral/ethical authority act contradictory to those morals and explain it as either a means to justify some "greater" end (as if moral consistency wasn't hard enough for our species) or as some reason why their standards don't apply in their situation.

Yet Wikileaks seems to be in some weird guerilla moral territory that basically every corporation seems to occupy. They provide some necessary good, and because of it, many of us ignore the bad. I don't think we should though.

For anyone :/

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Was it a secret, (anytime recently), that the cia funded the muhajadeen's fight against the soniet invasion? What's the connection between the muhajadeen and isis? This leak is lame.

<comment><USER2> It's not even a leak, it's just a tweet from WikiLeaks quoting a public article from 2005.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Does WikiLeaks have a shred of credibility left at this point? I thought it had become very clear by now that Assange is in bed with Putin and that WikiLeaks is simply an arm of his propaganda machine.

</comment><comment><USER9> They were built by the CIA in the 70's/80's... Pretty misleading title.</comment>


News Corp. Threatens to Pull Fox Off the Airwaves If Aereo Wins - <AUTHOR> http://allthingsd.com/20130408/news-corp-threatens-to-pull-fox-off-the-airwaves-if-aereo-wins/ <comment><USER2> Let's piece this together.

1) News Co transmits their content unencrypted over the air with kW+ senders

2) News Co finds that doing so enables people to watch that content

3) News Co does not want people to do that

4) News Co threatens to stop broadcasting their content on the publics valuable frequency spectrum

So why exactly have they not followed through? It seems like a proper conclusion and solution to their perceived problem.

<comment><USER3> The whole problem here for the broadcast networks is that Aereo sets a precedent for the cable companies to also avoid paying the retransmission fees by setting up a million tiny antennas instead of one big one. Nowadays, the broadcast networks get 70% of their revenue from retransmission fees, and only 30% from other sources, such as advertisements.

Aereo and its users themselves don't matter - they're totally insignificant. But the court ruling does matter, because if the cable companies stop paying the retransmission fees, the broadcast networks are _fucked_.

<comment><USER4> Mostly correct, but what's at stake here isn't the cable fees so much as the local/affiliate fees. Those are still a decent business for companies like NewsCorp (and others), but let's face it: local affiliate television is dying on the vine, one way or the other. It faces a fundamental challenge much more significant than the one posed by Aereo.

The entire premise behind affiliate television is that local station owners can license the rights to national programming, and then exercise a quasi- monopoly over distribution of that content to local markets. (If I'm the FOX affiliate in NYC, for instance, I pay FOX for the rights to its shows, and I have exclusive rights to air those shows in NYC).

This business model was threatened the minute the internet took hold, really, because the very idea of local exclusivity is anachronistic now. It's one of the two horse-and-buggy concepts of the 21st century content distribution business (the other being time-bound content viewership). It is threatened much more extensively by Netflix, by YouTube, by Hulu, by Microsoft, by iTunes, etc., than by any one startup. It is threatened by virtue of its irrelevancy in the modern, globally connected era.

The idea of moving television networks to paid subscription models has been bandied about for at least a decade now. IIRC, it was NBC who first proposed this idea in the early 2000s. Indeed, this may come to pass at some point: not because of the likes of Aereo, but because broadcast television starts to make less and less business sense as time goes on (whereas content ownership and distributorship is still viable). Eventually, we'll probably have nothing _but_ content shops, who distribute their wares across all channels -- perhaps offering different tiers of the products at different prices in different channels, and/or extracting licensing fees to different distributors.

As a consumer, expect a generally upward trend in content pricing in the long run (i.e., free to paid). It'll just depend on _whom_ you're paying. Advertising-subsizided, free content will still exist to the extent that distribution channels like YouTube continue to thrive.

<comment><USER5> This is an interesting-sounding analysis, but unfortunately your statement about the "premise" of affiliation is 100% backwards.

In major markets, historically it has been the networks who pay the stations an affiliation fee, not vice versa. The stations have something valuable (a broadcast license) and the networks want access to it so they can air their national ads.

Yes, of course the station also gets something valuable out of the affiliation. On balance, however, the money has tended to flow from network to station, not vice versa. For example, here in Boston, NBC pays Channel 7 an affiliation fee of $15 million a year (or did in 2000 and years afterward; I haven't kept up with it more recently).

See [http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrical-engineering-and- comput...](http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrical-engineering-and-computer- science/6-805-ethics-and-the-law-on-the-electronic-frontier- fall-2005/projects/newselectionbias.pdf), section 2.2 (page 4).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I thought the Aereo decision was contrived, but I have to say: if you want to control distribution of your content, don't broadcast it unencrypted across the whole country.

<comment><USER7> I think it's a pretty clear solution to the problem, honestly. Broadcasting is very clearly defined, and Aereo is very clearly unicasting.

If Aereo was using a single antenna and capturing the source to send to multiple clients, they'd be broadcasting:

        *===\
        *===A===S
        *===/

But instead, they're providing a 1:1 receive-and-transmit, basically turning them into a DVR with a really long cable:

        *===A===\
        *===A====S
        *===A===/

I think it was really the right ruling. The stations are upset that Aereo is capitalizing on their content, but what Aereo is selling is a DVR, not their content. They aren't broadcasting by any means.

<comment><USER8> It's a silly and wasteful answer to a silly problem.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Can't blame News Corp, really... moving to cable would be a sound business move. They have their bottom line to protect, and if their revenue source is threatened, they _should_ investigate moving to a different revenue model.

<comment><USER10> Their revenue source is ads. They are not going to give up their ad revenue to get a tiny, tiny bit of retransmission revenue. This is all a bluff and the only correct response is to roll your eyes so sarcastically that they hurt a little bit afterwards.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Let's hope Aereo wins, then.

</comment><comment><USER12> Can someone who has been following this story break down the practicalities of the current judicial environment for services like this? Not black and white answers, just the general consensus.

I know some others like boxee [1] are trialing services like this in some markets.

From a bootstrap/startup/DIY perspective what seems to be the current known framework?

1) content needs to be over the air 2) customer needs to be inside the content's broadcast area 3) needs to be a 1:1 correlation of receiver/antenna to viewer

those are my baseline understandings, are there any I missed

I wonder if anyone has any knowledge or informed opinions about:

What is the broadcast area? Is that a regulatory definition, or is it determined by if you can easily recieve the signal, or could it be anyone who could receive the signal even if using sensitive equipment and directional antennas

What would be acceptable in terms of customer is in the broadcast area? Credit card billing address? Physical mail sent? IP geolocation? mobile gps result?

Obviously you can compress the signal, but what about tampering with it? Would adding a scroll or bumpers to the stream change the legality?

Is this all based on live transmission only? Would store and forward (ie cloud dvr) change the picture?

Is there anything about charging that changes things? It could be free, no? What about subscribe vs. pay per use?

I realize this is a highly fluid situation, I'm just curious if anyone has any thoughts or insights thats been paying attention.

[1] <http://www.boxee.tv/dvr> cloud dvr, stream live tv to multidevice - launched in some markets.

<comment><USER13> I worked with a startup that wanted to do something similar to Aereo (they had an even better clever hack on the law, in my opinion) but they stopped after calculating the cost of the inevitable lawsuits and appeals.

> What is the broadcast area?

It's called a Designated Market Area or Television Market Area (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_market>). I've only hear TV people use the former term.

> What would be acceptable in terms of customer is in the broadcast area?

I've heard it suggested that a current GPS location is the only thing that would stand up in court. But that idea has not been tested, as far as I know.

<comment><USER12> Thanks a lot for taking the time to explain, I really appreciate it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> So ... we create a TV that shouts every day "we need no government, government is stupid, freedom, laises faire, WAAAAAAGH" ... and then we run to the government like the little crybabies that we are, when somebody does the things we preach ...

</comment><comment><USER15> I can't wait until this launches in my area. The reasons I want it are basically the original reasons Cable TV came to be and precisely what they advertise. I hope that my use case isn't unusual because I _actually_ need the very long cable attached to rabbit ears somewhere other than where my vacation home is located.

I have a vacation home on the US side of Lake Huron. I can receive two stations OTA... Canadian (CBC and CityTV? I think). To receive those, I installed a couple of bow tie antennas on a poll ten feet above the roof of the second floor. It was a pain to install, performed poorly and looked tacky. A storm solved that for us. I'm not climbing on that ladder again. DirecTV/Dish aren't an option due to the tree line. Comcast offers service for about $50 a month that includes 20 fuzzy analog channels. The signal was unwatchable despite the installers insistence that it was "fine" which ended up being downgraded to "the best we can do". No competition means no expectation of quality service (I'm not knocking it, just stating the circumstances).

Surprisingly, DSL seems to be the only thing we can get up there that performs at speeds I was used to at home say, 6 years ago, which are fine for 3 "HD" streams from the usual internet streaming providers.

I have no problem with just using Netflix (and Hulu/Plex/etc). My parents, however, love sports/local news/the comfort of what they consider "normal TV viewing" at night. We tried SlingBox App + iPad + AppleTV but it disconnected too frequently due to upload speeds being lacking in the home the box was installed. This would eliminate that issue, and would provide the stations the rest of my family wants to watch on the weekends.

</comment><comment><USER16> More people are watching NYC area stations -> charge more for advertising on those stations => why is this a problem?

Likewise the issue of "we won't get rebroadcast fees in this area" seems spurious. If people cut the cord, they won't get the rebroadcast fees either.

This seems to me to be more "change is scary" than "they're stealing our stuff and not paying us"

</comment><comment><USER17> Reading the comments here, I think there is some confusion over which channel(s) this is referring to. News Corp owns Fox Entertainment Group, which in turn has a number of divisions. The Fox Broadcasting Company is just one of many TV divisions. The "Broadcasting" in the name refers the Fox channel broadcast over the airwaves. The cable channels like Fox News, Fx, National Geographic Channel, fox Sports, and so forth, are in separate divisions.

Its shows include Family Guy, Hell's Kitchen, Glee, NFL on Fox, etc. Of all the shows appearing on the broadcast channel, I suspect that NFL on Fox could be an issue. When the NFL sold them the broadcasting rights, I assume that broadcasting the games over public airwaves was a factor.

</comment><comment><USER18> Please do, you will not be missed.

</comment><comment><USER19> Aero must be really shaking up the cable companies for this degree of response. Its the cable companies pulling Fox's tail that's causing the outcry.

I'm currently in the sweet spot for Aero. I live in the Suburbs of NYC and I have to have cable because the over the air signal is weak in my area. That combined with the fact that cable companies own pretty much all of the suburban news channels means that without cable I don't have access to local news. There are millions of others in the same boat.

I heard about Aero about a month ago. I'll be dropping my cable television package over the summer.

</comment><comment><USER20> Sounds like win-win to me.

</comment><comment><USER21> No talk of what audience they _would_ pick up? I can't get the local broadcast stations, and would appreciate some service making them available via streaming data. I'm _not_ signing up for "cable TV" at its price just to get what normally would be free save for quirks of geography.

Contrast the "I Heart Radio" <http://www.iheart.com> app service, making broadcast radio available everywhere free - rescuing many stations from oblivion. Whither "I Heart TV"?

</comment><comment><USER22> I won't miss it. Last time my wife and I moved, we simply declined to transfer our cable subscription to our new address. TV over the internet is an idea whose time has come, there's no stopping it now. The big TV companies will have to choose whether to adapt or die. They will fight it tooth-and-nail because it costs them money, but they will adapt.

</comment><comment><USER23> I wonder if News Corp realizes just how many people support Aereo now given this threat.

</comment><comment><USER24> I'll sure miss Fox when they pull off the airwaves said no one ever.

</comment><comment><USER25> It continues to amaze me how that once you do something one way for a few years (or a few decades) how established businesses are willing to fight tooth and nail to keep doing it that way _even if it stops making any sense to the consumer to do so_.

We have this same fight with RIAA, and with IP in general. Once a business model gets established, it's the dickens trying to change course.

This is what concerns me most about the internet: when we were putting this all together, it was just a bunch of hacks out there pressing buttons, seeing which ones would work. Web pages are a kind of location, like a street address? Okay, let's run with that. Search is a way to monitor user intent? Okay, that works. Facebook should be the new version of the yellowpages? Yeah, that's the ticket.

Watching all of this happen, I've been amused, concerned, and finally blasé. I mean if Facebook doesn't work as a universal phonebook, or if it starts thinking it owns the net, who cares? Surely somebody else will come along eventually. But it concerns me that the patterns we've set up over the last ten years or so are going to be just as hard, if not harder to overcome than these decades-established ones.

Everybody loves riding the rocketship up, and milking the cash cow. It's a completely different picture when technology starts making your model obsolete.

He has to know how weak his cards are. My money says they're bluffing. This is a cry for support, not a real option.

</comment><comment><USER26> Murdoch has a fundamental problem :

The value of a newspaper / journalism outlet is its wide distribution. He famously said to a (probably many) politicians "you can have headlines praising you, or you can have a bucket of shit in your doorstep each morning"

The more paywalls he erects (wsj, the times, and now fox) the smaller his distribution and the less value.

It's not the end of the world now, but there is a value in say the Democratic Party funding it's own free newspaper

<comment><USER27> What does that quote even /mean/?

<comment><USER28> _Cracks knuckles_ "It really would be a shame if that nice reputation of yours were to be damaged in any way..."

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> Pulling Fox News off the air seems to be yet another argument for Aereo.

</comment><comment><USER30> Please don't forget to cabelize Faux News too.

</comment><comment><USER31> Taking out of context, but I found _"Having a television antenna is every American's right."_ to be pretty funny.

<comment><USER32> From a UK context, it may be less funny:

 _In the United Kingdom and the Crown Dependencies, any household watching or recording live television transmissions as they are being broadcast (terrestrial, satellite, cable, or internet) is required to hold a television licence. Since 1 April 2010 the annual licence fee has been £145.50 for colour and £49.00 for black and white._

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Television_licensing_in_the_Un...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Television_licensing_in_the_United_Kingdom)

<comment><USER33> As someone living in the U.S., I'd happily pay the ~$18.50/month to have unlimited access to the programming (plus web streaming) that U.K. citizens do.

<comment><USER26> It is rather nice.

You guys ought to try it.

<comment><USER34> I'd put Netflix ($8/month) + Amazon Prime Video ($6.50/month and Prime shipping included!) up against the BBC's streaming library any time.

<comment><USER35> Dr. Who--does Amazon Prime update more frequently than Netflix?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> ButtHurt [buht-hert]. _Noun_. An inappropriately strong negative emotional response from a perceived personal insult. Characterized by strong feelings of shame. Frequently associated with a cessation of communication and overt hostility towards the "aggressor."</comment>


The History of Child Abuse (1998) - <AUTHOR> http://psychohistory.com/articles/the-history-of-child-abuse/ <comment><USER2> This from the article:

>A childhood more or less free from adult sexual use is in fact a very late historical achievement, limited to a few fortunate children in a few modern nations.

Clashes with this:

>In America, the most accurate scientific studies, based on lengthy interviews, report that 30 percent of men and 40 percent of women remember having been sexually molested during childhood—defining "molestation" as actual genital contact, not just exposure.

30-40 procent isn't "more or less free from adult sexual use" in my opinion. The numbers looks genuine from a quick search but I hope they are not. Otherwise something is very wrong.

>Adjusting statistically for what is known about these additional factors, I have concluded that the real sexual abuse rate for America is 60 percent for girls and 45 percent for boys, about half of these directly incestuous.

:|

<comment><USER3> The context here, clear from the previous sentence's mention of _incest taboo_ as another recent development, is that this is referencing _normative expectation_ , as contrasted with actual experience.

That is, in earlier times, not only would the experience have been far more widespread, and likely more frequent in individual cases, _but considered perfectly normal, non-deviant, and lawful_. At least if you accept the author's argument (I'm undecided as yet).

But the notion that attitudes toward sexual relations with (or between) minor can change markedly over time is abundantly clear. Within recent memory, the age of legal marriage has been as low as 14 (considered "childhood") in certain US states. New York State raised the minimum from 14 to 18 in 2017:

[https://www.cbsnews.com/news/new-york-ends-child-marriage- ra...](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/new-york-ends-child-marriage-raising-age- of-consent-from-14-to-18/)

The same article notes that two states, North Carolina and Alaska have a specified minimum age of 14, _and 27 states lack any specific minimum age._

I'm not arguing that the low (or no) minimum age laws are right. I am pointing out that standards, and laws, within the US, and within the past few years, have included marriage, and presumably sexual relations, among minors. Along with (and combined with) attitudes toward race and religion (anti- miscegenation laws also being within living memory in the US, overturned in 1967 in _Loving v. Virginia_ [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loving_v._Virginia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loving_v._Virginia)), little else among human norms has changed _more_.</comment></comment>


Mail::RFC822::Address: regexp-based address validation - <AUTHOR> http://ex-parrot.com/~pdw/Mail-RFC822-Address.html

<comment><USER2>
        Anyone who attempts to generate random numbers
        by deterministic means is, of course, living in
        a state of sin.

            -- John von Neumann

Modified to:

        Anyone who attempts to validate email addresses
        by a regular expression is, of course, living in
        a state of sin.

            -- Any sensible person

</comment><comment><USER3> How many '@' characters are possible in a valid address?

I don't care enough about offline email validation to figure it out carefully, but I have the idea it is one.</comment>


Lawmakers in Canada, US call for probes of LiveNation/Ticketmaster refund policy - <AUTHOR> https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/calls-for-live-nation-ticketmaster-investigations-1.5537077 <comment><USER2> If you're having trouble getting a refund for a canceled event and you paid by credit card, calling your credit card company may help.</comment>


Dohop mines its database to show you cheap flights from your nearest airport - <AUTHOR> http://www.dohop.com/away

<comment><USER2> It's a shame the results interface doesn't let me view more than three results on iPhone :(

<comment><AUTHOR> We are working on a mobile version, but we hear it looks great on an iPad.</comment></comment>