How I thought I wanted to become a digital nomad - <AUTHOR> http://alexp.github.io/2013/09/12/how-i-thought-i-wanted-to-become-a-digital-nomad.html <comment><USER2> Having been semi-location independent for 4 years now, I have come to a similar conclusion.

The theory of decision fatigue -- that you get exhausted by making a certain number of decisions -- seems to be true to me. And the thing is that when you are in a new place, there is a large number of decisions to make about petty things like where is the nearest supermarket, where can I work out, how do I get proper internet etc. Whenever I've set up in a new place, my productivity suffers severely for a week or two. After that, I'm okay but if you travel a lot, that becomes a real price. And it's not rewarding the same way that other guilty pleasures are, it's just annoying.

I remember walking to the "office" in Bangkok one day, having been there for three weeks. I pulled out my iPod for the first time since I arrived. It struck me that this was a sign that I was familiar with my surroundings. I didn't need the full mental capacity just to navigate, I could run that process in the background and allow myself to listen to music. I am not sure what you can conclude from this but I think that it's likely that I had consumed a lot of energy up until that point, which I then didn't have for programming.

<comment><USER3> Oh man, yeah, decision fatigue. I've been a freelancer (web work and later technical translation) since 1996 and we've moved, kids and dog and all, from Indiana to Puerto Rico to Budapest, at will - and the one thing that makes it difficult is that you're _always_ asking, "Should we be staying here or going somewhere else now?" It never stops. The kids are having allergy problems? Let's move to the Caribbean! The Caribbean is _too_ relaxed and the schools suck? Let's move to Europe! Europe has horrible winters? Back to the Caribbean!

It gets old. And expensive. And the business takes a major hit every time we move just because of the distractions - _and_ it's a continual stress when we don't move, a stress that normal people don't even think of having.

<comment><USER4> It seems like there is no perfect place. New Zealand or Australia? they are in a difficult time zone.

One alternative is having two fixed locations and moving on winter.

<comment><USER5> This is really how it's done. But requires wealth. It's what super rich people do. Homes in multiple locations and chase the sun.

<comment><USER6> Or you could sub-rent your place for a few months in winter and rent a place in a warm country. No wealth required.

<comment><USER7> I always wonder if there is a website to organize this. I have my own house but would like to stay here only 3 months a year and move for other 3 places elsewhere (fixed places). It would be a good idea for a startup.

<comment><USER8> There's quite a few websites that handle house swaps. Airbnb is also a good option if you have someone to manage the place for you while you're away.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Programming (for me) occurs at the apex of an extended Maslow's type hierarchy, and traveling often destroys the very foundations of it. The code I write when sleep-deprived, hungover, hungry, sunburnt, and sitting on a bumpy Thai train wondering if I missed my stop and wishing there was internet & coffee, is strongly inferior to what I write in a well-lit, quiet environment, fed, rested, fueled by engineering conversation and mental/real bandwidth, etc. That's not a proscription of adventure so much as an acknowledgement that the whole nature of adventure is disruptive: multiple variables in your equation are changing at rapid rates, and they are important variables: food, shelter, language, currency. Over our two-year stint in Asia, we usually found ourselves in one of two situations: 1) blissfully immersed in the culture and outdoor activities of <x> country but contending with unreliable internet, limited work time and near-nonexistent attention spans, or 2) sitting on a nice nondescript hotel bed somewhere with A/C, good wifi and our tiny MacBook Air screens, and feeling like we may as well have not left the US at all.

<comment><USER10> > Programming (for me) occurs at the apex of an extended Maslow's type > hierarchy, and traveling often destroys the very foundations of it

For me, it varies with my mood. A lot of the time having some stress and interesting surroundings spurs my creativity and I've written some of my best code in a park, on an airplane or at a café. Other times I just want to lock myself in a familiar room with all my comforts and shut out the world.

That's why when I do the travel-and-work thing, I stay for 2-3 mo in a place, and I can mix things up depending on how I feel that week. I've also decided for myself that it's never a failure of travel to not be in local's dining room every night living the "real experience". I'm not on vacation, I'm still working, so I'll never see #2 as an issue.

<comment><USER9> It is interesting that sometimes being in a new environment can promote creativity and even discipline (for instance, it's easier for me to work continuously on a plane--which I'm doing right now--than when I'm in our home office because I perceive I have less choice: not sure what that says about me). And I agree that if I'm doing performance testing or adding a mellow feature, then sure, throw me in the middle of Cirque du Soleil and I'll be fine.

But I would challenge the idea that complex programming problems (cloud sync, NLP, etc, choose your poison) can be solved equally well in a suboptimal environment. Here is my "hypothesis": unregulated noise[1], temperature[2], and other travel-centric environmental factors (such as the need for vigilance in a new environment) distract from cognitive performance in the majority of people, if not all people.

[1] [http://peterhancock.ucf.edu/Downloads/ref_pubs/Szalma_Hancoc...](http://peterhancock.ucf.edu/Downloads/ref_pubs/Szalma_Hancock_2011_Noise.pdf) [2] [http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1600-0668.2004....](http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1600-0668.2004.00305.x/abstract?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false)

To be clear, I don't think it is possible to write my best code in a park, an airplane or a café, regardless of mood. But I would be curious to see relevant studies which demonstrate otherwise. I agree that changes in environment are stimulating and that stagnant workplaces hold their own dangers.

I also agree that 2-3 months is a good baseline for getting to know a place: you don't feel as jostled about by your schedule, and there may even be time for cursory grasp of the language (w/some prepping beforehand) and making a friend or two. Plus you don't have to cram your (potentially expensive) excursions into as short a block of time.

<comment><USER11> [http://libgen.org/scimag2/10.1111/j.1600-0668.2004.00305.x.p...](http://libgen.org/scimag2/10.1111/j.1600-0668.2004.00305.x.pdf)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Far as I can tell, the argument here boils down to "can't concentrate on coding while traveling". When put in a simple statement like that it becomes very obvious that the statement depends entirely on the person. Many people have little difficulty opening up their laptop and forgetting the rest of the world for an 8 hour stretch, and this would be the type of person who would do well as a digital nomad. If you need peace and stability in order to code - and many, many people do - then it's a bad choice.

I've also found you need to be very comfortable with email and text communications, and you probably need to be good at getting your point across and discerning the point of others as it's more difficult to communicate technical issues without being in person - but obviously very possible, as the number of very good technical blogs can attest to.

<comment><USER13> How do you do an eight hour stretch? At best I can work for two hours without needing food or a bathroom break.

Imagine you're working in public space. To take a break you have to pack up your laptop, power adapter, water bottle, phone, headphones, go put them in a locker (or just carry them), visit a wc, eat, take a break, go get bag out of locker, find another place to sit with power, set up computer, power adapter, etc.

It's a lot different than just walking away from your desk at home for 5 minutes to relieve yourself, grabbing a banana, then getting back to work.

<comment><USER10> I wish "hourly office rental"-type places were more common for this use case. It would also help with all the people hogging seats at Starbucks.

Personally I love the internet cafés in Japan - you get a private booth, free drinks, some even have showers. They're well-equipped enough that some people down on their luck even live in them permanently. I wish that model was more widespread internationally.

<comment><USER5> Regus does it. Of course it's much more cost effective to get a monthly rental if you'll be using it frequently.

<comment><USER14> You can occasionally get a year's free use of Regas facilities via various promotions. Worth keeping an eye out for.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Having done this a bit, the answer is in my experience, figure out a good location in a particular country, in Thailand I'd say Chiang Mai, in China perhaps Yangshuo, Cambodia Siem Reap or Sihanoukville. Get yourself a cheap place/room for a month or so, do some serious work then when you've completed whatever it is you're doing do some proper traveling.

Trying to do it all at once is mostly a killer. That's not to say you can't do maintenance and smaller tasks while actually traveling, but really building anything meaningful actually requires a lot more concentration in my opinion.

<comment><USER16> I absolutely agree. The thing is, that having been to most of those locations (except Sihanoukville and generally China), I just didn't feel that those places would be fun to stay in for a longer period of time. It all comes down to personal preferences of course. I was on the hunt for a good spot for myself and failed so far.

<comment><USER15> Yeah for me they're ideal, they've got lots of guesthouses so there's plenty of competition and finding rooms for a month should be easy and pretty damned cheap. Tons of restaurants meaning you can more or less walk out the front door and find somewhere new to eat everyday cheaply.

I kinda suspect you're looking on the wrong continent or as you say you're just not suited to it.

<comment><USER17> I've been in Phnom Penh for the last 3 weeks. It may not be as relaxing as Sihanoukville or somewhere else smaller but for me it's been the perfect place to work and focus.

I found a nice (enough) apartment for 120$/month that is extremely close to the largest market in PP and Olympic stadium, where I exercise daily. Right outside my front door I can find excellent meals cooked by my friendly neighbors for less than a dollar. I'm here for at least a year, but probably longer; I love this place.

<comment><USER18> Nice, I've been in Phnom Penh for 2 years now. What type of work are you doing? I'm always looking for good freelance devs.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> I worked online, run my "little Airbnb" and travelled/lived in more than 50 countries since 2001. The fact that your productivity suffers can be interpreted in a positive way: you CAN'T work too much because you are kept busy with the non-routine stuff. I absolutely love it and wouldn't change this for a 100% productive environment anytime soon. It's my protection against the work-a-lot-buy-stuff-you-don't-need routine. So I am forced to spend money in non trivial things as keeping the flexibility is expensive. When I need to get some serious work done I stay in Italy, Bangkok, Bali or Prague for a few months. It takes me a couple of weeks to settle in Bali, 1 day in Prague (I just need to rent an apartment), 1 day in Bangkok and more or less a week in other places. I also did a lot of backpacking (a few days in each place) and I agree that this greatly reduces the productivity. You have to find the balance which works for you, anytime, anywhere. Not easy, but it's there somewhere.

</comment><comment><USER20> "Even though it might be obvious, during my travels I found out the hard way that creative, meaningful work, requires some routine. Changing your location once a week, working from benches, hammocks, cafes, bars and hostel floors is a cool way to fund your vacation, but it certainly doesn't help you when tackling hard programming problems."

And this is what I've also found. In order to be able to do anything of any significance you need to make the rest of your life as routine as possible in order to minimise distractions. Continually moving around requires you to do a lot of extraneous work merely to reproduce your labour.

<comment><USER21> The way I see it, one doesn't need to actively travel constantly to be traveling. When I was dealing with a difficult project, I just stayed at one particular hostel for two months, and settled into a routine. It was an odd one, of course, but it still became a routine, and I could finish the project.

<comment><USER22> The successful travel/work people I know do it in that style, moving between cities on a monthly or bimonthly basis, not daily. They'll typically spend 1-3 months in a city, renting a place on AirBnB or a local rental site, then move to another city.

That removes a lot of the problems discussed in this blog post, like not knowing if you'll have internet access tomorrow, and not being able to guarantee you can spend 8 hours tomorrow on a project.

It's also how I personally prefer traveling, even just purely for vacation purposes: have a relatively stable temporary base where you can leave your stuff, and then explore the local area for a while (both the city you're in, and day trips to nearby places). When I spend only a few days in a city I never feel like I really see it or understand it, so I don't like doing the whirlwind backpacker-style trips where you're moving to a new place every day or two.

<comment><USER23> The most cost effective way I've managed to pull off the expat existence is to find the equivalent of Craigslist in the country you'd like to visit; then arrange a 3 month rental (the usual visa limit, on an American passport at any rate), sorting out high-speed internet in advance (i.e. if no connection in place already, contact local ISP and get technician visit/installation for day after you arrive).

Next, get a local SIM card with pay-as-you-go plan and use the invoice with your apartment address as "proof" of residency (for the next step).

Finally, hit an ATM and draw equivalent of a couple grand USD in local currency and create a bank account using your pay-as-you-go invoice and passport as proof of identity.

Have bank accounts in Canada, France, Brazil, and the States, only one of which charges a monthly fee.

In SW France now, the 2-bedroom apartment I'm renting is 5 minutes walk from the beach, and runs me about $750/month, high speed internet included.

SE Asia may be cheaper, have yet to venture that far from EST where my clients are based. Might check out Sri Lanka though this winter, have heard there's decent (enough) surf and not super pricey.

Cheers to fellow code warriors ;-)

<comment><USER24> There needs to be a service where you can just buy/rent a packet with all the essentials. Sim cards are just one of the many things that could come in such a package to save you a lot of time. My GF when she travels has often sought out exchanging used pre-paid SIM cards for the countries she goes to as a way to avoid all the bureaucracy that often surrounds their acquisition. It would be great if you could do this with bank accounts too by simply handing it over to another person. Just withdraw all the money and hand the debit cards and other account information to another person. So long as the bank rules don't allow accounts to go negative, there is no reason to tie identity to bank accounts.

TBH, I've really come to the conclusion that borders are bullshit and I can't wait until they are increasingly viewed as an anachronism like they have come to be viewed within the EU. They create a number of inefficiencies in many many systems and the truth is that the only necessary system that really needs them to function under the current model is taxation to support public infrastructure within a region. However, even that can be solved by only taxing everything that is immobile, such as land, buildings, businesses that need to exist in a certain physical location for prosperity, such that both those that live in a place and those that visit a place, pay directly for the use of all the public services in that place via the infrastructure that accommodates them (places to sleep, eat, work and be entertained).

<comment><USER25> Yes. When I last left the UK I remarked to the teller as I withdrew the last of my money that it was about 100 up on what I expected. Suddenly all the money was grabbed back. I was quizzed at length on what I had bought recently. It transpired that a recent purchase (it may even have been an ATM withdrawal) hadn't registered at the back yet, and I was made to leave all my money behind to cover the pending charge. Given the BS involved in opening accounts and the larger issue of te impossibility of closing them (10 years later I still have the bank and a tax authority writing to me regarding about 10 quid in the account), handing them on is a great idea. Makes me wonder if I could get paid to some other system - a non bank affiliated credit card or similar. Dare I suggest a Paypal equivalent (obviously not Paypal though).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> "Stay in one place for a while" is fantastic advice. One week is barely enough time to get settled - every time you move you need to find stores, amenities, cafes etc. Two weeks is much better (and you'll appreciate the place more), but even longer is better if you really want to get work done.

A nice room is great advice too - makes a huge difference to your happiness if you can wake up each morning to an amazing view & sunshine in a good location, compared to a small cramped hotel room in a sketchy area. Obviously you have to go with what you can afford, but a cheap AirBnB can be dramatically better than a hotel sometimes.

The downside of getting a 'real job with an office' is that you might not be able to negotiate that 2 months annual vacation, or to get the vacation at times that suit you. You'll have to prioritize what you really want.

<comment><USER27> Even staying in one place for 2-3 months means having to continuously find those stores, amenities, etc. Sure, it's more stable to stay a few months but having to constantly settle in new places is tiring...I can't imagine having to do it every week or two!

<comment><USER22> I wouldn't do it every week or two, but every few months is doable if you travel slowly, since you can reuse a lot of your knowledge in other cities. Once I got reasonably comfortable with Copenhagen, for example, getting comfortable with Malmö or Helsingør was a quick incremental adjustment, since many things are similar.

<comment><USER27> True, though I find the smaller the cities are, or rather the more they're similar in smaller size and population, the smoother the transition. As far as Brazil, I've lived in more neighborhoods and more cities than most Brazilians and the toughest experience was adjusting to São Paulo's 12 million people and spread out geography.

Cities of large sizes and big populations also create other problems such as with locomotion, quality of public transport, number of modes of transport needed to get to various points, etc. In essense, it came to preferring to live in a crappy, cramped yet centralized place vs a larger, more comfortable 'far away' place (from the city center). In São Paulo, often the time I would spend in transit would be double the time I would actually spend with a friend (versus smaller coastal cities where I could reach my friends in 10-15 minutes tops).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> I'm a location independent UX/ UI, startup guy who has been doing this for a long time. Over the years, I've raised capital for one startup, worked with high-profile clients on complicated projects, and worked on my own stuff, all while being more or less unattached to a location.

I've clocked time in South America (Ecuador, Argentina, Chile, Uruguay), Mexico, Taiwan, India, China, and Southeast Asia (Vietnam, Malaysia, Thailand) and the list goes on. I'm not dropping these locations or the info above to show off, I'm simply lending perspective.

I slow travel - meaning I usually set up for at least 3 months, if not longer. My most recent stint was on and off Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam for 6 months+ where I was lucky enough to get embedded in the local startup scene.

The biggest flaw with the article and the idea of the digital nomad as presented in general is prioritizing lifestyle over business.

It makes being a "nomad" seem like a wandering soul hopping gig to gig taking advantage of low cost locations without much strategy or purpose. Additionally, I sense the job or employee mindset in the tone of the article, which is fine, but I wouldn't hit the road with that mindset.

If you're going to take on this lifestyle you can't have an employee mindset. It won't work, and most will end up broke or bored trying to sustain the lifestyle and scrambling to try and find remote work.

A whole point of being location independent, which the article neglects is how you can be more strategic about your location, expand your network by being exposed to serendipitous opportunities that would have otherwise not presented themselves, and grow your business.

The opportunity to expose yourself to places and people on an upward trajectory, and how you can add value to those situations and take advantage of them should be a priority at the top of the list. Not just a beach hammock, backpacker ghetto or a cool place to work and Instagram.

Otherwise, what's the point.

</comment><comment><USER29> I've been living 9 months per year in coastal pacific south america -- for the past 7 years.

I am not a "nomad", and my experience is the opposite -- I am much, much more productive working remotely. I did actually enjoy the article for the useful information it can provide others considering this, but (as many of the comments in this thread point out) the author is clearly Doing It Wrong. I don't think it has much bearing on working internationally.

Two thoughts:

1\. 'I changed a massive part of my life and, 2 months in, I feel less efficient!' Gee, really? 2 months is just about long enough to investigate a new location, but it pales in comparison to the amount of time you've spent optimizing your life in your old locations.

2\. Home base. Living. Everyone here is saying the same thing: you need a solid, stable home base. Maybe there are rare butterflies who can flit from hostel to hostel and feel good. The rest of us typically have more of a relationship with our surroundings.

I hate traveling. I love _living_ in great parts of the world, though.

I have a modest 2-story house I bought, one block back from the ocean in an 800-person fishing village. It's my home base.

I am fantastically productive when I am there. Far, far, far more so than when (maybe close to launch date) some clients request that I sit in their lovely, stylish, noisy open-plan offices, where you cannot take a nap and where you have the mental barrier of a commute bookending your days.

<comment><USER27> > I hate traveling. I love living in great parts of the world, though.

Good point. This is my view as well, though I've moved many times in order to try out new places...in order to find those great parts of the world. I'm on my 2nd country and I'm a lot closer to what would be ideal for me. The nomad life I live is, in reality, more of a nomadic mover than a nomadic traveler. The hard part is when the grass is always greener.

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> I hope to try the digital nomad route in a few years but I have a different take on it.

I'm not looking to sustain a working vacation--I'm interesting in experiencing day-to-day lifestyle in different cultures/suroundings. I'm thinking of staying around in terms of months or years, not weeks.

Also, I probably will only try it if I have my own enterprise I can run on the road. I'm currently working as a freelancer but wouldn't think about hitting the road until I have more direct control on projects.

And while I get my ducks I a row I would love for someone to do an airbnb for digital nomads. If it would be easy to find a place to work and place to live I'm sure I'd me more likely to try it. And I wish some countries would see the revenue opportunity of this! (I'm looking at you Spain, Italy and Greece.)

<comment><USER31> what is airbnb for digiral nomads? Can you describe in more details what you need?

<comment><USER27> I'm guessing here but I assume he means a site for places to live and work or perhaps a preset agreement where both kinds of places are rentable at the same time, in a package sort of deal.

In terms of co-working spaces, they're often way more than I'd want to spend for a simple internet connection and a place to sit.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> My father did something like this in his later years and I never heard any of the complaints in the article; then again he had an RV instead of a 44 liter backpack and mostly stayed in the USA rather than crossing the world. Connectivity was the main problem I heard about. I guess its much better now.

Also its not a binary decision. Its a big planet and you can select whatever tradeoff you'd prefer in a nearly pure analog fashion, its not exclusively binary "Poland OR Vietnam". For example there must be tens of thousands of places to park a RV in the USA that are similar enough not to be strange but different enough to be an adventure on time off.

Some people set the thermostat to 72F and leave it alone 24x365 (that's me!). Some people alternate setting the thermostat to 85F and 60F every couple hours and complain constantly of freezing or burning up (I work with people like that, it is such a pain to be around). That doesn't mean a third option doesn't exist of setting the thermostat to 67F, or 77F, or randomly varying from 70F to 74F from week to week, etc.

<comment><USER33> Was your father working at the time?

My wife and I live, work and travel from a 25' Airstream and can definitely relate to a lot of the point the post has made as well as the "decision fatigue" mentioned in other comments. It is tough to keep focus for 8 hours when your scenery is changing from week to week and there are so many new awesome places to explore. That said.. We are currently loving it with no plans to stop or slow today. Todays adventure is mountain biking in Bend Oregon.

Decision fatigue comes in with route planning, trying to figure out if that cool forest road everyone talks about will have cell service, where to fill up with water, where to dump the tanks... all of which are near constant. We could slow it down a bit and stay in an RV park a month or so, but we enjoy moving and don't enjoy the atmosphere of most private RV parks.

<comment><USER32> Consulting, sort of working, yes. Very limited hours basically retired, but still helping out here and there. In an earlier era, to say the least. He never went quite to the level of parking his RV in the clients parking lot, but he came close a couple times. For one client I think he visited every office in the country over the course of one fall for an upgrade project. I don't think he ran a net profit, but he probably paid quite a few expenses. He said something once about 3piece business suits and RVs don't mix very well.

All I remember of his advice on this topic was private parks are completely deserted during the week during the school year, and there are public parks in the middle of nowhere for the weekends.

I have been to private campgrounds (as a tent camper) and even in season during the summer, the difference between 3pm Thursday and 3pm Saturday is spectacular.

The airstream sounds like fun, have a good time! As an adult child I had to drive to my parents house many a time to take care of the mail, check the place out, etc. In fact I watched the 9/11 attack reports on their TV, I happened to be there that day. I would imagine snail mail and stuff like that (vehicle registration?) is quite a challenge for a true nomad.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> Yes, moving around is a pain. Power adaptors, crappy internet, lost days in airports, missing luggage, carrying things, finding decent accommodation, worrying about visas, changing money, etc.

I'm location independent and change base-cities every year or so. I also spend maybe 6 months per year on the road.

Honestly, I get more coding work done when I'm at my home-of-the-time. But a lot of the soft stuff: running in to people in related industries whose brains I can pick, spotting new potential hires, thinking up powerful bizdev ideas, etc. all happen far more on the road. I often stop for extended periods .. a week is typically the minimum.

I've found the most important thing to manage is my own motivation: if work is getting in the way of relaxing, I can it for awhile. If relaxing is getting in the way of work, I can it for awhile.

Being in a stationary, fixed environment with ongoing overheads and investments in random rapidly depreciating junk (like vehicles) is personally not a good situation for me. I get demotivated pretty immediately. On the other hand, sometimes transient living feels like it's getting long in the tooth, too. If that happens, I tend to switch it up a bit and pop cultures, rent a place longer term. The grass is always greener, right? As it turns out: often it is. And when you go back to somewhere you'd been before, both you and the place have changed.

Bonus poem excerpt (sorry to those scrolling!):

 _They 'll allow me to choose,

Where to settle anew,

Be it in east or west.

But with dollar now sliding,

And frequent poor tidings,

The orient does rather seem best!

Aye if USA visas,

Berkeley feminist divas,

Could yet warrant a tired "may-be"...

With all due respect,

Most are pains in the neck,

And I love a good foreign lady.

So at present juncture,

(Passed global acupuncture)

I dream happily now of returning...

To the rhythms of life,

Of an eastern respite,

From the world of democracy burning._

</comment><comment><USER35> I'm somewhat doing this, I made it as far as the Philippines and then I sort of planted myself. When sticking to one place, it's pretty much the same as being planted anywhere else. Obviously the author of the article moved around a lot more.

My advice for S.E. Asia is don't get a hostel for AirBnB room. Get an actual apartment or even a house. Where I'm at you can get either month to month for $100 to $200 per month easy.

My work takes a lot of my time, so I don't travel much. There is no way I could move around a lot. But with a good gig it's easy to take some time off and travel to another place for a couple of weeks. Flights are cheap to anywhere in the region and there are a lot of interesting places nearby.

So, use your house or apartment as your home base and then take lots of vacations.

Even just living abroad can get old though. After a number of years you wonder why you are doing it. What's the point? You begin to find out what really matters in life, which to me is family, my craft and... food! I haven't had real Mexican food for far too long. I would kill for a Subway sandwich. Even worse is that the Philippines isn't known for its food.

But then, there are good reasons to stay as well. I think there is a lot of opportunity in S.E. Asia. I feel like I'm not missing out on opportunity in the U.S. because most of my work is there anyways and I already know the culture.

ETA: I don't see how you could go out 5 nights a week. Even with just a few drinks and going to sleep later than usual, I feel it the next day. It's not even hangover, I would feel the same the next day just from screwing up my sleep schedule. If I did that 5 nights a week I would get nothing done. I generally get up crazy early to be available towards end of day for the U.S. though (12 hour difference from New York.)

<comment><USER36> Had to comment on a minor thing: If you are in one of the big cities, Subway is easily available? [http://www.subway.com.ph/Subway_front/layouts/](http://www.subway.com.ph/Subway_front/layouts/)

It was what I had for lunch almost too often when living in Makati. A bit expensive compared to many of the local offerings, but always fresh and you know exactly what you get.

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> I have been practicing this lifestyle since April when I moved from Amsterdam to Bangkok & Chiang Mai. While I recognize some parts of the article, I think the general tone is off.

Constantly traveling and working won't work for most. But settling in one place for at least 6 months, finding a good office or co-working space with fast internet, and getting into a routine (like the article states) CAN actually work for many people. It does for me.

Also since you're in a new place, you also have plenty of opportunity to do weekend travels to other countries, as well as local leisure activities. In case of Thailand, that means you can be on the beach in 2 hours from anywhere, or if you're not into that, enjoy the wild nature. And life is cheaper in many of these places.

Not for everybody, but definitely do-able.

</comment><comment><USER38> Alex, you're a very skilled storyteller. I enjoyed reading the post.

I have one small piece of constructive feedback: your use of commas was a little confusing at times, and it slowed down my reading.

Commas can be tricky, and I sometimes struggle with them as well. Here's a quick guide that I find useful:

[http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/commas.asp](http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/commas.asp)

<comment><USER39> You didn't need a comma here:

"at times and it slowed"

Or here:

"can be tricky and I sometimes struggle"

Granted, you might want a dramatic pause or the comma might break up parts that could be misconstrued as together. Chiding Alex with superfluous commas? Generally speaking I recommend dropping commas where you can. Like you said, they're speed bumps.

<comment><USER38> You should use commas to separate complete sentences. That's what I did in both cases.

There's no need for either of us to be snarky. I told Alex that I enjoyed his writing and respectfully offered feedback.

<comment><USER39> "I have one small piece of constructive feedback: your use of commas was a little confusing at times, and it slowed down my reading.

Commas can be tricky, and I sometimes struggle with them as well."

I'm not saying you're wrong. Yes the sentences are complete but how self- sufficient are they? It's a sliding scale from no comma to comma to period. Some of these rules are not hard and fast. The art of writing is slowly evolving and to a degree it's a matter of taste. Some people love hyphens. In this case there's a strong enough correlation, conceptual link between the sentences such that the reader doesn't need a comma to read what you're saying in one breath. If it sounds good in one breath, that's a strong signal you don't need a comma. Knowing the basic rules is just the beginning. I'm dead serious.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> "And to be completely honest, it's just not enough. I believe that working with a team of people that are more experienced and smarter than yourself is crucial for your development, and as a freelancer, doing minor gigs involving some MVC/CRUD application programming, you just miss out on a world of possibilities to grow and learn."

I've experienced this as well, it was my main grief with working by myself and on the road and ultimately led me to join a company again part time. Sadly the team I joined isn't really what I expected from a team, so I'm already on the lookout again :(

<comment><USER10> Working on a team doesn't have to be incompatible with working while traveling. I work on a global team on a single product and get challenged by my workmates all the time. We meet once a year at WWDC.

<comment><USER41> Wish more companies are like that. Scott Berkun maintains a list of companies with distributed teams, if anyone looks for a new job :-)

[http://scottberkun.com/2013/how-many-companies- are-100-distr...](http://scottberkun.com/2013/how-many-companies- are-100-distributed/)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Thank you all for commenting. I'm positively blown away. Especially considering the fact that it's just my first note on the blog. And sorry about the commas and possible grammar mistakes. English isn't my native tongue. I must have skipped those classes on punctuation.

</comment><comment><USER42> My wife and I were talking about a property we found in Central America that was pretty amazing. Having been a backpacker when I was younger (in the 90s) I always wanted to set up a small hostel/hotel type thing somewhere beautiful.

I wonder if you could build a business serving the Digital Nomad. Basically offer a place to live + a coworking space. The traveling hacker gets the benefit of having a good place to work, plus the benefit of hanging out with other hackers whom you can chat with, maybe even pick up new work.

</comment><comment><USER43> Has anyone tried this working only in the United States? I feel like this would be easier as internet access isn't at a premium (you can always tether on your smart phone worst comes to worst). The United States also has lots of large clients and if you want a larger technical challenge you can always set up camp near their offices for a few weeks and work in house. On the non- technical side of things you can find any kind of environment you want in the US. Mountains, beaches, cites, etc. I know you won't get the rewards of traveling abroad but you get 90% of what the ideal is and you can always take some time off big projects and travel abroad if you feel like it.

This is coming from a US citizen who loves his country despite all the fucked up shit that it's government does sometimes, so maybe I'm bias, but I definitely think the life is possible.

<comment><USER26> I'm sure it's possible, I've travelled through parts of the US with my business mostly on autopilot. The higher cost of living can make it trickier though, part of being a digital nomad is income arbitrage (ie earning a US salary but spending it in a country where your US Dollars are worth a fortune).

It won't be the same as travelling overseas & experiencing different cultures though... part of the fun is returning to your home country after months overseas and seeing your home culture with fresh eyes. But it could be a good start.

I think you're overestimating the difficulty of finding WiFi & internet, though. I've often found better internet connections while traveling through Europe than in the US. But if you're a US citizen, travelling just through the US will simplify visa concerns, which helps a bit.

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> Being and having been a digital nomad for the past several years, it can become tiring having to switch up location and work setting so often. While living in Rio de Janeiro, I often wondered how people who are from there work in office buildings in the wealthy neighborhoods (which are a stone's throw from the beach), deal with knowing that fun and sun is literally 5 minutes away at any given moment, that people are always on the beach enjoying themselves while you have to be stuck up in your office with a possible view of the sea.

In any event, I wasn't one of these people as I could take a break when I wished and hit up the beach, etc. It was great...until the project that kept me financially stable went under. Instead of looking for more work, I sacrificed the need to work more for the free time (and ability) to very cheaply or freely enjoy myself in my surroundings, eventually tiring of demanding little of myself after a few months (you can only be young-ish and 'hang' for so long). It's great living in a beautiful place, but even better when that place is very affordable (or, in the least, when you've found a way to make it affordable...almost an art in itself).

In the Bay, I almost never went out because everything cost money and therefore my friends only did things that cost money. Being poor in US standards was social suicide.

In Brazil, I was going out 4-5x per week! My average night out in Rio I'd spend about US$5, maybe $10 (drinks included, try doing that in SF!). Plus, there just so much to do for free, from hiking to beaches, to free concerts and art exhibitions...you name it. Things that other young people are also doing, mind you. In developing nations, or even economically strained ones (I'm in Portugal now), where most people are on a budget, I find the amount of fun and interesting things to do, for free or cheap, increase. Not only do the events and activities increase, but the number of people doing them increase, too.

Being a digital nomad, with at least one stable project, in places like these is where the 'good life' is. But when that stable project goes bye-bye, the sense of the good life goes with it, no matter where you are.

_____

As an aside, having just read the article, I saw that it's a minimalist blog (post) on github.io, which I'm not familiar with. From their landing page, I don't see any offer for blogging.

On Wordpress, I couldn't find any theme like this but on HN I come across these types of entries somewhat often, though this is the first I've seen from github.io. Anyone know how I can get a free one like this, where there's just a white page and words, via any blogging service?

<comment><USER44> Using Jekyll with Pages

[https://help.github.com/articles/using-jekyll-with- pages](https://help.github.com/articles/using-jekyll-with-pages)

<comment><USER16> Author here. Exactly as digitalboss commented plus a custom crafted html/css on top of twitter bootstrap. It's not perfect, but it does the job.

Best, Alex.

<comment><USER45> And it looks clean.

I use 'noscript' and had to enable the javascripts in the page to get sensible justification.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> I am really wondering how you communicate with your customers?

Do they know that you are living in places where most of them might even can only dream of going to for vacation? Or do you just simply "not tell them"? How do you handle call requests then? Or situations where the customers just invites you over to discuss the project in detail in person?

And what are their reactions like when you tell them that you currently are living just a stone's throw away from a beautiful sandy beach? What is the quota of lost jobs due to that?

Thanks!

Otherwise really insightful article. I enjoyed it :) And being a frequent traveller myself I would recommend you to stay longer in predefined places. Like you said...catering for the logistics (accommodation, internet access, checking out the neighborhood, finding grocery stores/restaurants) all that is yet interesting but really tiering and time consuming. It is a better choice to stay somewhere for 3 months, plan ahead for the next location during that period and use weekends or other "time-slots" of your choice to explore the region. If you want to travel to a place that would require you to have more time than a regular weekend offers, you should take a vacation. Which would require you to work the time on weekends the weeks before and of course one should stick to a set number of days off per year in addition. It's the student-dilemma...when there is no one micro-managing you, people tend to slack-off. So you should keep yourself accountable towards yourself in that situation. Like you were employed, but by yourself ;)

Oh and another question: What is your girlfriend doing that she has the time and financial backup to do this with you? Is she working in the same field?

<comment><USER16> My clients always know exactly where I am, what's the time zone difference and all.

During the two month period of the 'experiment' I didn't actively hunt for new leads, so I can't relate to the lost deals part.

Call requests are done via Skype if needed.

Regarding my girlfriend, during this two months, she's on vacation, although she actively helps with prototyping and concepts.

We both had savings from day one of the trip and my freelancing gigs make up for a source of additional income that makes this thing less scary :)

<comment><USER46> Thanks for your reply. I would love to hear from you in an update-post, when those customer relations actually end and you have to establish new ones. Especially given the situation that you both, can't profit from the company's relations and are working remotely.

Awesome travel blog as well...went straight to my feedly! Cheers

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER47> I think the 'digital nomad' lifestyle is an interesting one and definitely worth experimenting with (especially for folks in our industry who truly can work from anywhere in the world), but it is hard to sustain over time.

If you're trying to get stuff done though, I think a good strategy is to pick a place and stay there for a few months, rather than being 'on the road' and traveling around from place to place. You can still be 'location independent' by renting an apartment for 3 months in a foreign country (like the Costa Rica example that was on HN a few weeks ago). But at least then you'll have more of a sense of routine, waking up in the same place every day, and because you have a full 3 months to explore the place, you won't feel as obligated to rush out and see the sights all the time.

It also really helps to be able to set yourself up in an office with an ergonomic chair, external monitors, and proper mouse/keyboard. That might be a bit more difficult to do if you're in a foreign country, but you can definitely buy used and sell again when you leave.

</comment><comment><USER48> I see there's lots of insightful comments here from "digital nomads." Are there any good forums or communities online where you congregate to discuss these issues?

<comment><USER49> I'm part of a paid, private online forum of 'digital nomads' (though everyone hates that term) or 'location-independent entrepreneurs' that also places much importance on solving entrepreneurial loneliness via in-person meetups etc. There are hundreds of members. You have to be doing something worthwhile to be accepted. It's called the Dynamite Circle.

<comment><USER50> From this page it seems you just have to pay around $30/month: [http://www.tropicalmba.com/innercircle/](http://www.tropicalmba.com/innercircle/)

<comment><USER49> That's correct. It's eclipsed by the value.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER51> I have been working on, gotten funded, and grown my DYI'd startup while living as a digital nomad. Since being funded I have worked with a number of collaborators. I try to only hire people that move a lot. because I live that way it feels good that the people I get to work with share that lifestyle. We are actually currently doing our first group face2face powwow now for 2 weeks. It's great to be in person together but everyone, myself included is such a lone wolf that working together in person is awkward. We all disperse to our corners and work.

Hanging out having cigarettes and chatting about development, that's where the value in being together is it seems.

We are hiring again now. Anyone know the best forums to find digital nomads (term is getting worn out) looking for work. It would fit our company's culture to bring on another traveling developer.

<comment><USER26> Heya bobonaza, I see you're new to HN (welcome!) You might have more luck getting people to contact you if you fill out your profile - try adding a few website links of what you're working on and maybe an email address or Twitter handle :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER52> I travelled and worked for over 3 years with 1 month at a time. After working on my time management skills I found that it did not decrease my productivity that significantly (maybe 10% reduction?). This is mostly from things that you cannot get when traveling for example: Multiple big screen monitors, regularly stocked fridge with easy to eat food, extra time taken to find locations to eat and wash your clothes etc.

This is assuming you're switching locations every 1-2 months. If you move locations every week it's a huge drain in productivity as it takes time to get set up and to travel etc.

Have now fixed in one place just because I have a baby, but otherwise would be possible to keep traveling.

I think a bigger problem of constant travel is the lack of a regular community.

</comment><comment><USER53> I've just travelled through Europe for three months as a location-independent consultant and what worked well for me was to stay at least a week in any place, and travel only on weekends.

This got me into a nice rhythm where I could be as productive as at home.

</comment><comment><USER54> As a data point, I went to Barcelona for a month (because remote work) and stayed in a flat with roommates etc, the full citizen thing. I loved it, I worked at home during the day and went out/made friends/saw the sights in the evenings and weekends. It's only one place, as I just roam around Greece usually, but it was a very positive experience.

The hardest part was meeting new people in the beginning, but meetups quickly changed that and I had a blast. I would definitely recommend going to a new city for a month or two (a month is a bit inconvenient, you have to go right when you're making new friends and enjoying yourself).

</comment><comment><USER55> Your blog should have comments. I've done this as well, I've lived in Thailand for 6 months and Japan for a year, and other countries for longer period of time, mostly doing remote freelancing work.

I somewhat disagree with your first point (I've been getting good and big projects), but I completely agree with the second one. There is a lot of mental baggage when you have not "settled" down and don't have established habits. I am starting to think that a more effective way would be to do several weeks of focused work, 1-2 week travel, rinse and repeat.

<comment><USER16> I absolutely didn't plan for this kind of 'publicity' for the post, to be honest. Comments will be added.

Regarding the first point - I guess it's a matter of commitment. From day one this was mainly a travel project first and remote working project second. I believe that if I found a place I really would love to stay at for longer than a month, my view would be slightly different. But still, I tried to describe honestly what I thought about the past two months.

</comment></comment><comment><USER56> _1) get a remote-friendly job that fits your skill set and ambitions. Move every quarter or so. Stay in one place for a while._

That's kind of the best of both worlds. It's actually pretty tiring travelling AND working at the same time. You will have a large amount of context shifts which will destroy your productivity.

I also wish remote work is more common. While it usually works when you know a company really well (e.g. small company with known, trusted colleagues), not many companies are actively trying to make remote work possible.

</comment><comment><USER57> I spent 8 months traveling through Central and South America helping someone develop a travel site, Skilljet.com, a job I found through Odesk. Although I loved every minute of it, I can agree that there are some limitations. It's a bit hard to venture off into remote territory, when work is dependent upon stable internet access. And when moving around often, it can take a bit of time to get re-settled and find a comfortable work place.

However, like I said, I loved every minute of it! I initially left for my trip with only $600 USD in my account. Working online allowed me to stretch what would have been a 3 week trip into an 8 month trip where I was able to visit 6 different countries! When I found my 'office' to be a hammock on a beautiful beach in Brazil, I knew I had accomplished something very special.

Also, since Skilljet is a website designed to help travelers find amazing adventure around the world, I was able to contribute to its development from my personal travel experience. This really helped me unite, both the virtual world of working online, with the physical world around me, which made my experience much more meaningful.

</comment><comment><USER58> Very good text. I'm struggling with the same problems right now, typing this from a beautiful medieval city in Istria, Croatia, and trying to look at my laptop and not at the wonderful landscapes and Adriatic sea on the horizon. It's harder than it might sound and extremely distracting. And I have to sit here because it's the only place around with a decent wifi. Self-discipline is a b__ch...

<comment><USER59> I'm considering leaving my stable job in London, for remote/freelancing while based in Istria/Croatia any of these days.

</comment></comment><comment><USER60> Hi folks found this discussion through Dan Andrews on www tropicalmba com/digital-nomad/ My 2 cents, I am aspiring to an online business and to be able to work when I want to not because I have to. To that end when my regular job ended 3+ years ago, I decided to work as a contractor. I work as a professional in Australia but live in S-E Asia. My work schedule is about 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off. It's a little like the Four Hour Work Week prescription for geographical arbitrage. It's not perfect, and if the AUD tumbles will have to re-assess. Compared with previously I work the same hours per day for 12 days/month - before I used to work these hours or more for about 22-24 days/month + as employee had lots of administrative and bureaucractic headaches which you cannot help taking home. As I am on contract have none of these - or very little. Those admin and politicial headaches are so bad for your health.

Now I have some time to think and strategise on my long term plan - and act! Anyway good luck to all looking for something different.

</comment><comment> __--__ I recently did something similar to this short term (airbnb for a month in SF) and I'm curious: are all digital nomads strictly software guys or writers? I have physical electronics and carpentry projects I like to do in my spare time, so I had a trunk full of tools during my airbnb stay.

Is it possible to do hardware projects on the road? Maybe rely on hackerspaces for tools and such?

</comment><comment><USER61> I fly almost every week and, honestly, I get a lot more work done those weekends I stay in one place. Even ordering cars ahead of time you aren't going to get as much coding done when you are hoping in planes and out of cars and waiting for departures, or arranging the next week's hotel stay or other stuff.

</comment><comment><USER62> Very interesting discussion as I am just starting my digital nomad life. Like the author suggests, I strongly believe in staying at least a couple months at every destination (where you'd like to get some work done).

One thing I'm curious about is if some of you have tried finding local clients in destinations you visit?

This is obviously easier in big cities than in Kho Phi Phi, and will most likely pay less than a US-based client. Nevertheless, I'd imagine it to be a great way to get immersed in the local lifestyle and solves some of the issues mentioned in the post (eg: timezone, workplace).

</comment><comment><USER63> I would like to take different approach, get my gf to some calm place. Have a nice house, good internet connection which is now not a big problem even in country side. Lead simple life far from city, have my "home office" room. Country side is cheaper and a lot nicer, I could get great coffe doing it by myself instead of working from "shops". Traveling would be needed also because it is easier to work with someone you met at least once face to face, or going on vacations but without work. That would be life of digital hermit :)

</comment><comment><USER39> I don't think he mentioned safety or crime either. Law enforcement varies state to state, town to town. Off-limits neighborhoods, speed traps, tricky intersections where accidents are common, quirky customs and conventions. Gang colors? Towing! Some states left turns go first, in Texas left turns go last. Frontage roads in Texas are really crazy and we have life-threatening flash floods regularly. "Turn around, don't drown." Knowledge of local insects, snakes, animals, etc.

</comment><comment><USER64> Great story. This is something similar to what I'm close to building for myself. I had wondered what it would be like if I had actually achieved it. That being said, if I rotate places I would try to stay for a decent chunk of time. I couldn't imagine constant travel. It's just not productive if only for the fact that travel itself tends to limit ability to do work. That doesn't count the cognitive load of establishing a somewhat productive routine.

</comment><comment><USER24> The best way to do meaningful work while living as a digital nomad is to contribute to open source. IRC, mailing lists and Github issues provide all the conversation and decision making infrastructure necessary to make the same architectural choices needed to build something with the same level of substance and depth as any project being tackled in an office environment.

<comment><USER65> My takeaway from the article was that the cognitive overload of being in a new environment was at least as big a factor in not being able to handle meaningful work (that is to say, challenging work that forces you to grow) as the logistics.

But what you suggest has merit and I'd be interested to hear what the nomads' take on it is.

<comment><USER24> Totes. The one big difference though with open source projects versus client work is that the logistics of collaboration in open source never changes. It's always somewhat async and almost always communicated in writing, with various tools to help (JSBin, Gists, Diffs, IRC, email, etc.). With clients, the biggest complicator is negotiating how to communicate with them, which can occur for every new project and on every move. Time zone differences compound these negotiations because so many people expect phone or video calls to sync up.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER66> I did this throughout India for 9 months. Reliable wifi access is a must and more difficult to secure than you'd think, perhaps. But by moving only every 2 or 3 months, I find there's a good balance between setting up shop, getting familiar with your environment, etc. and just getting shi* done.. YMMV

</comment><comment><USER67> This is a thoughtful discussion. But it doesn't really address those of us that have kinda "graduated" from digital nomad hood.

By that I mean, for some of us, you get to the point where yes, you want the advantage of multiple locations - but you also want routine.

The problem is when you start traveling around enough, it gets harder and harder to "get it all" in one place.

For me the solution is, as one person mentioned (or rather, several) 1\. establish a home base(s) 2\. get second homes or rentals you've been to before in familiar places (you can get to know AirBnB landlords many of the have multiple homes) 3\. coworking spots around the world 4\. start connecting with nomad communities - like a diplomat, you'll start running into the same people over and over again - forums, private/paid communities 5\. tap into your alumni abroad community (if you have one) 6\. establish daily routines (for me, it's a morning call with several other location independent founders) 7\. meet ups

Eventually you'll have a set up where you have say "home bases" in 2-3 countries/continents....places you can go back to sleep in your own bed, say Hi to the local butcher, grocer etc, read your own books.....

...then you can travel several times a year (conferences, random hot spots, etc) - for the excitement, because one starts to miss the thrill of traveling.

I definitely think though that multiple home bases + coworking spots + connecting with the location independent community + a codified daily routine is the way to go!

Anyone who can enjoy this life should be totally grateful for the options it affords one.

The biggest challenge I've found (someone tell me if you can relate) is that often I find myself hanging out with: 1\. trust fund babies (born into having the time, income, location freedom) 2\. retirees (have the time, income, location freedom but had to work for it) 3\. people on welfare (have the time and often times the money too, lol) 4\. location independent professionals/entrepreneurs (perfect match but still quite niche) ...in my age group. Man when you walk around during the day, outside of the traditional corporate/9-to-5 set up, that's rarefied air.

Someone who really establishes his/her community as the penultimate resource for connecting location independent founders and professionals with homes, coworking sports almost like a done-for-you social network, will be solving a huge problem.

</comment><comment><USER68> I dont understand what are you trying to say. I traveled around the world and had nonproblem consulting people meanwhile.

</comment><comment><USER69> I read , much of the night And go South in the Winter.

</comment><comment><USER70> a

</comment><comment><USER71> Excessive travel is terrible for the environment. You can easily generate many times the amount of carbon dioxide you would emit by driving for a year, simply by taking a long plane flight or two. [http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/27/sunday-review/the- biggest-...](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/27/sunday-review/the-biggest- carbon-sin-air-travel.html?_r=0)

Travel is nice, but not when you do it just to brag about having gone to X countries in Y days. Then it just becomes a status thing, and is, as the author notes, "kind of douchey." The internet, _good_ news sources, and documentaries can broaden your horizons even without leaving the house.

<comment><USER72> Always take trains overland. Flying should be reserved only for trips that cross water.

Besides, travelling by train is much more fun.

<comment><USER73> Unfortunately not always a realistic option (exhibit A: North America).

<comment><USER74> I do it in North America. Every long trip needs two days of padding on each side, but people make allowances for you as if you had a phobia of flying.

When all of your business trips become taking the Amtrak in a Roomette to your B&B, business travel becomes a lot less stressful.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER75> On the one hand, I can understand all the complaints here that traveling makes hard work since you often have to forego all the creature comforts you have become accostumed to, and might rely on to a large degree in order to be productive.

On the other hand, programmers are notorious for their binge-coding-marathons, living off less-than-optimal nutrition and little sleep. I can imagine that this type of person could sustain to have a few bumpy days when settling into a new location (of course, even if one can manage to sustain some binge-coding now and then does not mean that you can do it often. So I guess you still might have to find a comfortable setup and routine while away from home, eventually).

</comment><comment><USER76> The author needs to learn how to properly use the comma.

<comment><USER77> I don't really like grammar comments, but in case the author is reading -- the comma really did throw off my reading of the title.

<comment><USER67> I couldn't concur more. It's one thing if someone is tactfully offering a suggestion that would help improve the comprehension of someone's work.

But to me there's nothing worse than someone whose only way of adding value is criticism something they weren't creative or proactive enough to do themselves.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER78> If you're going to take a holiday, take a proper damn holiday. "Digital nomads" are fictional characters from Charlie Stross novels. (Or, if you're unlucky, Cory Doctorow novels.)

<comment><USER49> "Fictional" \- How so, David? If you define digital nomadism as working from the road via the internet - 'location-independent entrepreneurialism' \- I know hundreds of people doing this successfully.</comment></comment>


New Conference Paper: "From Freebase to Wikidata: The Great Migration" - <AUTHOR> http://www.infodocket.com/2016/02/18/new-conference-paper-by-google-and-wikimedia-researchers-from-freebase-to-wikidata-the-great-migration/ <comment><USER2> Actual paper is here: [http://research.google.com/pubs/archive/44818.pdf](http://research.google.com/pubs/archive/44818.pdf)</comment>


Gun Emoji Pairings - <AUTHOR> https://www.lexicalitems.com/blog/gun-emoji-pairings <comment><USER2> Not sure i get involved but here goes.

So apparently it is officially called pistol, yet most seems to represent a revolver, and the guy insists on calling it the gun emojii, even though the word gun can be used for anything from a bb to .50...

<comment><USER3> That's because most people will call these things guns ("the suspect had a gun") -- unless it's something obviously special and/or well known (e.g. an Uzi), and sometimes not even then, they don't delve in the minutiae of whether it's pistol, revolver or whatever. Non native english speakers (e.g. 90% of the internet) even more so.

<comment><USER4> > "the suspect had a gun"

Or do you mean "perpetrator"? ;-)

<comment><USER3> With everybody having a gun in the US, you can't really tell :-)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Can't wait when this emoji bullshit hype is over. It has esthetics of an unaligned, overscaled <blink> element. Fonts should be strictly limited to monochrome.

<comment><USER6> You would have _hated_ ancient Egypt.

<comment><USER7> At least it was monochrome... but not always [https://warboar.wordpress.com/2014/03/23/color/](https://warboar.wordpress.com/2014/03/23/color/)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Whenever my coworkers and I are killing off unused code, we do the :horse: :gun: emoji. It's _great_.

</comment><comment><USER9> I am honestly surprised that frog + gun isn't on the list.

I thought that was the meme that started the thing + gun.

edit: I also discovered that HN comments don't support utf8 emojis

<comment><USER10> Yeah, I think it's for the best that there's no support for emoji on HN, it's a great relief to me at least.

<comment><USER7> I'm curious, what unicode sets _are_ supported on Hacker News? Did the creators explicitly decide on certain sets, or was the decision made for them based on their programming environment / database?

<comment><USER10> I think it's at least the basic multilingual plane, the supplementary multilingual plane, and the supplementary ideographic plane. Maybe not all of each of these. I think many emoji are in the SMP on the 1F000–1FFFF range, some of the original ones (primarily added to translate proprietary Japanese character sets) are in the BMP.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I wonder if weighting by favorites/retweets would change the results at all. Maybe horse+gun would be on there? ([http://deadspin.com/rockets-twitter-guy- fired-over-emoji-vio...](http://deadspin.com/rockets-twitter-guy-fired-over- emoji-violence-1701052004))

</comment><comment><USER12> Anecdotal, but it seems that iOS users use the water gun emoji as a normal gun, ignoring the font rendering.

<comment> kyle-rb I think it was only changed somewhat recently.

Also some apps load their own emoji, like Facebook and Twitter, so iOS users may be used to seeing/using the normal gun emoji in those apps.</comment></comment>


The Public, Playing a Molecule-Building Game, Outperforms Algorithms - <AUTHOR> http://chronicle.com/blogs/wiredcampus/the-public-playing-a-molecule-building-game-outperforms-scientists/32835

<comment><USER2> I see some sort of internship process in the future for this...where they make high schoolers do this for 40 hours a week <___< . I mean, if humans do better on it, why not make it some sort of job, eh

</comment><comment><USER3> FoldIt (<http://fold.it/portal/>) is similar. Humans tend to find a better starting structure while computers are better at refining that structure.

</comment><comment><USER4> The scientific method wins over mechanical application of top-down rules? Why yes, yes it does :)

<comment><USER5> Right. The headline should really be "The public, playing a molecule-building game, outperforms computer algorithms made by scientists". Which is distinctly less interesting, since individual people (never mind whole populations) _routinely_ outperform algorithms; otherwise artificial intelligence would be a solved problem.

<comment><USER6> It is still pretty impressive because these are biology novices, and RNA folding is a somewhat complicated biological process. AI does outperform humans on a regular basis, especially in narrow domains (chess, checkers, calculation, now jeopardy)</comment></comment></comment>


Your Minimum Viable Product is Processing Credit Cards - <AUTHOR> http://garrickvanburen.com/archive/your-minimum-viable-product-is-processing-credit-cards/ <comment><USER3> You can even ask for money without having any way of receiving it. This is a good discipline to get into when doing customer development interviews.

"So we've established that this is going to save you four hours a month. OK -- it isn't ready for you yet, but it will be soon. It costs $50 a month. Can I get a $50 deposit from you to reserve your spot? We'll apply it against your first month's fee."

If you've identified a problem people actually have, they'll crawl over you to give you money. You don't even have to accept it, just watch whether they're actually willing to get out the checkbook or not.

(n.b. A _lot_ of software is sold prior to existing at numbers substantially higher than $50. For example, you might hypothetically be building something enterprise-y and looking for your first anchor customer. If you are, the conversation goes something like "OK, will you soft-commit to being our first customer on this? We'll draw up a Letter of Intent which says that, six months from now, after we've got the technology in place, we start implementing a field trial for $YOUR_COMPANY, with successful implementation to be followed by an annual purchase in the six figure region. Does that sound good to you?")

<comment><USER4> _A lot of software is sold prior to existing at numbers substantially higher than $50._

And a lot of software that is already paid for is never delivered. Or delivered late. Or delivered, but not as expected.

Don't. Do. This.

Please don't mix the popular memes of "Release early, release often" and "Good enough" with "Get paid up front".

This happens so often that I've made a career from cleaning up the mess left by people who didn't deliver what was already paid for.

Be very careful if you do this. It's a whole lot easier to repair your code than to repair your reputation.

<comment> zupa-hu Your points are just beautiful. Someone talking in business mode (patio11), versus someone in product mode (edv519).

I think your argument is rather about your goals. patio11 wants to make money first of all. edv519 wants to make the user happy first of all. Both views have pros and cons, and you will probably both reach your goals.

<comment><USER5> You don't understand what Patio11 is saying. He wants to _know_ that your product can actually get people to pay up. It's the ultimate in product validation. Until people will pull out that wallet and sign on the dotted line, you don't _know_ that your product solves a real problem.

That's what Patio11 wants. He doesn't want to get paid up front and he's not in "business mode". He's trying to validate his product in the best possible way.

<comment> zupa-hu Oh you are assuming I think patio11 is wrong. I deliberately used "mode", because one probably needs both. And I could probably learn from patio11.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> For what it's worth, my most profitable SaaS product launched without the capability of processing credit cards.

It launched with a price though. But also with a 30-day Free Trial.

The logic being that I could spend all pre-launch time building the actual thing. And then I had 30 days to get that payment processing stuff sorted out. Back then, you almost needed that much time. Today, you need a good hour to get Stripe up and running, so it seems even less of a priority.

So yeah, sure, you probably aught to have "makes money" baked in from day one. But if all you have is some Stripe sample code, I don't think I'd consider that a product.

<comment><USER7> You can also buy yourself some time and save money on fees by deferring all withdrawals to an end-of-month payment. That's what Apple does with iTunes, and it means they don't have to pay fees on microtransactions like $.99.

<comment><USER8> At least for me Apple certainly doesn't wait until the end of the month, although they do batch small transactions at seemingly random intervals.

<comment><USER7> That sounds right. The monthly interval was pretty arbitrary, but just seemed sensible. Wonder what triggers the withdrawals.

<comment><USER9> Probably the dollar amount owing by the account.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> For the MVP of Buffer, I implemented PayPal (no Stripe back then), but I avoided all the IPN hassles. The IPN is the part that would auto-upgrade people once they paid. The way I did it was to upgrade people manually as soon as I got the email from PayPal that they had paid for the Pro plan.

This turned out to be good for a number of reasons:

        1. I had no idea how long it'd be before the first person paid, so why optimize
           that flow? Instead I worked on things which would help me get to the first
           paying customer.
        2. The IPN was the hardest part of PayPal implementation, so it saved me
           a lot of time to avoid it. The rest of the implementation can even be done
           with their button implementation and no coding experience.
        3. Actually people having a slight delay, and my needing to personally email
           them, was a great thing. That built a lot of loyalty through the personal contact
           and those were some insightful conversations.

<comment><USER11> Interesting real world insight.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> If you want to sell something for $50/year, yes you need to take credit cards.

But if you want to sell something for $15,000/year, it's not nearly as important.

<comment><USER13> This is definitely something that I think has been overlooked in this thread.

If you're dealing with serious money (to the point where an individual is unlikely to be willing and able to spend that kind of money) the odds of even being able to use a credit card are slim to none. Enterprise companies do not generally use credit cards for large purchases. You're better off making sure you can handle POs and ACH (which for the life of me I couldn't tell you how to do outside of "try Dwolla").

<comment><USER14> I'll just throw in a quick plug for WePay here, as you're absolutely correct when dealing with high-dollar invoices and POs. Credit card fees get nasty at that level, and the chargeback risk gets a little hard to stomach. From the perspective of the merchant, we make it just as easy to get paid by ACH as by credit card (plus we offer free invoicing tools, and have other invoicing servies that use your WePay account over our API)

In practice it's a tiny bit more effort for the payer the first time around (there's no ACH equivalent to a credit card authorization), and after that everything is basically one-click.

Having worked with numerous ACH gateways... it's really something you're better off avoiding if you can help it. Never mind the painfully-long merchant agreements, there also tend to be weird limits on your volume, cryptic SEC codes to deal with, and... ugh, the reconciliation processes.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> > _If you can't process credit cards right now – you don't have a product and > you barely have a business._

Wow. Should I return a few million dollars to my customers?

</comment><comment><USER16> I almost _never_ use credit cards. In the Netherlands they've got iDEAL [http://ideal.nl/?s=&lang=eng-GB](http://ideal.nl/?s=&lang=eng-GB) (online payment through your own bank). Why use Cedit Cards at all?

Then again, I hate living on credit as do most of my countrymen. I am amazed people would _lend_ to buy a new car. If you can't afford it buy a cheaper model or one that's got more miles (or years) on it.

<comment><USER17> Using a credit card does not mean you have to pay interest. Buying something with a credit card is a 0% loan for 30 to 45 days. You can pay off any or all of your credit card balance within that time and not be charged a cent in interest.

Here's the kicker: In the US, if you don't buy with a credit card that earns you "rewards", then you are subsidizing those who do use credit cards with rewards. The reason is because many credit cards give around 1%-3% back, but the prices for everything remain the same regardless of whether or not you pay with a credit card that gets you rewards. As a result, built into the cost of nearly everything, is the cost of providing the airline miles, points, or cash back rewards.

On top of this, credit cards provide you with protection because you can dispute charges, and if someone fraudulently uses it, you do not lose that money immediately. Also, some cards (like American Express) provide 1 year of extra warranty for anything you buy.

TL;DR It's better to buy with a credit card, it costs nothing (individually), and you get benefits. There is a cost to society (everything costs a few % more), but I don't see that changing anytime soon.

<comment><USER18> _TL;DR It's better to buy with a credit card, it costs nothing (individually), and you get benefits. There is a cost to society (everything costs a few % more), but I don't see that changing anytime soon._

No, no ... no. The cost is not to "society", the cost is to merchants. They just earn less profit. (Think about it, if the cost _wasn't_ to the merchants, they wouldn't care about credit card fees).

What cards are giving over 1% back? I noticed some other commenters talking about 2%. I just get 1% + the occasional special 3% promotion.

<comment><USER19> The cost to the merchants is then passed on to the customers through higher prices (which they can stand because they're earning so many rewards!). Sure, the merchants would like to get rid of fees, but that would only provide them a short-term gain. Over the long term, their prices would come down to compensate for their lower cost of goods sold.

<comment><USER18> Nope. Doesn't work that way. Don't get me wrong, I think merchant processing fees are outrageously high, and that merchants should be allowed to add a few percent for payment with credit cards, in order to encourage cash/debit card payment.

Australia limited interchange fees around 2003 (cut them in half), and as would be expected, merchants did not lower prices.

"Interchange fees are paid by the merchant, and there have been studies done in Australia that said that consumers have not saved a penny by lowering interchange rates — that the merchants have not reduced prices at all."

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> A little Ask HN that is relevant to this thread: what are peoples' favorite avenues for processing cards these days? Especially for small increments (e.g. a few bucks a month)?

<comment><USER21> _Especially for small increments (e.g. a few bucks a month)?_

Kill the problem altogether by charging more. Alternatively, charge annual rates. Whatever you do though, don't try and make a living from services that charge two or three bucks a month.

<comment><USER22> What if you are a building something like a game where you want to use some form of micro-transaction model?

<comment><USER3> Essentially every game which does microtransactions does it by implementing a dual currency system, with one free currency abundantly available if you have infinite time to play the game, and one currency which is only available through purchase (or _very carefully monitored_ promotions). You sell the dear currency in odd-numbered lots (to exploit people's inability to do fourth grade math -- sad but broadly true of the industry), for example, 7 dragons eggs for $10, 15 dragons eggs (one free dragon egg!) for $20, etc. Even though this essentially enables you to price your Sword of Pwnage +1 at $1.42 (one dragon egg -- available ingame for one-click with no need to grab a credit card), you'll never actually send a $1.42 transaction to the processor.

<comment><USER23>
      > You sell the dear currency in odd-numbered lots (to exploit
      > people's inability to do fourth grade math -- sad but broadly
      > true of the industry), for example, 7 dragons eggs for $10, 15
      > dragons eggs (one free dragon egg!) for $20, etc.

At the risk of embarassing myself through terrible fourth-grade math skills, can you explain how selling in odd-numbered lots is exploitive? Or do you just mean that at the $20 level it's not precisely one free?

<comment><USER24> I believe he's referring to their inability to divide 10/7 to calculate how much they're actually paying for each dragon egg, implying that he believes that if players knew each egg was almost a dollar and a half then they wouldn't purchase the eggs.

<comment><USER25> There may also be a "hot dogs in packages of 8, buns in packages of 6" dimension to choosing the odd-sized in-game prices/currency-bundles. A user who has a little in-game change left may feel they have to add more, to get full value on their previous purchases.

<comment><USER26> You know, they're both sold in packages that are a pound.

Some are /4s some are /6s and some are /8s.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> I was working on my niche web app, <http://www.pageblox.com> for many months and was at times (when feeling overly optimistic) extremely delusional about how much I would make when I turned on payments. The truth is, you have _no idea_ what your conversion rates will be until you actually turn on payment processing. I thought it would be around 2% but in fact was less than .1%

Even though I only made $95 my first month (a lot less then what I had hoped) I now have a clear idea of where I stand and what needs to be improved and tweaked. It'll be a slow and at times painful process (SEO, A/B testing, blog posts, re-design, features) to make the profitability worth all the hours put in so far...

<comment><USER28> What HN fails to tell you is that making money, and turning a profit (big enough to make things worth it) is actually really hard.

I wish you all the best in this endeavour.

<comment><USER29> I couldn't agree. You have put yourself head and shoulders about the 90+% of people who either are to fearful to even try what you did.

Congrats.... "Boldness has genius, power and magic in it..." - <USER2>

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> I hear people keep recommending Stripe, but almost everyone I talk to here in Raleigh, NC says that it is way too expensive. Any thoughts? What is the best alternative that happens to be cheaper?

<comment><USER31> 2.9% + $0.30/transaction.

What are you looking to pay instead?

<comment><USER15> 1% + 0.15/transaction.

I have no desire to hand $30K to anyone on $1M for counting money electronically. Currently, we just employ someone to take care of the checks and it is only a fraction of her time.

Around $10K it becomes an interesting proposition.

<comment><USER32> You seriously underestimate the infrastructure, availability and security implications of `counting money electronically'.

Give me $1M and I wouldn't blink at $30K expense.

<comment><USER33> If your margin is 10% you would.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> A pretty popular venture-backed SaaS company didn't have automated payment processing until very recently. If you ask me, if you're dealing with other businesses and your product solves their business need, it really doesn't matter if you don't have a payment system as your MVP.

</comment><comment><USER35> Processing money should be something you consider at some point, but what I am missing is a mention that this is coupled to your target market.

In Germany many businesses (assuming you are working on some SaaS / B2B / ...) would look at you like you just talked Klingon if you tell them you only accept credit cards. Sad truths is that most smaller companies do not even think about having credit cards. There is slowly some change, form what I have experienced, mostly due to older CEOs and business owners being replaced by a younger generation but overall credit cards are not as common here as in America.

On the other hand I currently looked at some providers for credit card processoring (currently working on a project where it could become necessary). Most of the services seem to require your company to be in America or England, most won't work in Germany. So maybe I skip credit cards for the beginning and chose to go with something else (just hypothetical) - does this mean I do not have a product? Because I only support 5 out of 6 possible payment options?

Then there is still the option of in app purchases. For most apps which are "just an app" I believe they will work way better. No need for another service, no separate website or member area, nothing to care about but integrate an existing system which is designed to move money from a customer as fast and easy as possible to you (and a middle man).

The author is right that you should think about payment processing while working on a product - but processing credit cards is _not_ the holy grail.

</comment><comment><USER36> Good article, but the last paragraph had me scratching my head. $250 for a YouTube channel subscription that notifies you with an email? If I'd paid $250 for that I'd be pissed off.

<comment><USER3> That's sort of like saying "I'll never pay $250 for a meal." Statistically speaking, you probably will, you're just not currently thinking of a circumstance under which it sounds reasonable, but given the circumstance it will sound very reasonable indeed. (Example: Your wedding dinner. Granted, once you have that context, it isn't just a meal, but once you have the context of this purchase, it presumably isn't "just" a video on Youtube. It's an expectation of direct value, a relationship with the producer, a statement about one's priorities, etc etc.)

More broadly: going from "I wouldn't buy that" to "That's commercially nonviable" is one of the classic hacker mistakes. Clearly people buy it, right? You can fail to sell to _billions of people_ and still have a great business.

<comment><USER37> May not be directly relevant, but - I certainly would spend $250 on a meal. Indeed, the first meal I ever spent that much on - at the Fat Duck in the UK - was one of the best and most memorable single events of my life.

Which, I guess, points out another class of "actually reasonable" circumstance - the "no, really, it actually is that good" circumstance. I've heard similar things from people who bought top-end couture - you go in thinking "I can't imagine spending that much" and come out thinking "holy shit, I'm so glad I decided to spend that comparatively small sum of money".

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> The idea here is right on. It's like if you build a free app on the app store and you don't have ads or in app purchase. That isn't a MVP, it's a hobby. Things change when you start charging money for what you're doing.

A business is likely not a business if they aren't charging someone for something. Instead it might just be an organization that builds things, but for better or worse a business is something that is created to make money. If you don't like that idea, you shouldn't be "in business".

</comment><comment><USER39> This post pushed me to try some of the new processing tools out there. I setup Amazon simple pay with an IPN handler in about 20min. I didn't have an idea for a site so it's just a novelty site :) <http://valuedchange.com/> I chose amazon over stripe since the micropayment cost is less on amazon (5% + 5c vs 2.9%+30c )

</comment><comment><USER40> That's a problem I have. I always have ideas for this weekend projects that could bring some extra-money but I always get discouraged because, living in México, there's no easy way to process credit card payments. PayPal IPN is everything we have and it kinda sucks.

</comment><comment><USER41> Ask HN:

1\. how many of you have actually bought a promised product with a clear deadline?

2\. how many of you have actually bought a promised product with no deadline?

In my case the answer is 0 for both.

</comment><comment><USER42> that font is awful.

</comment><comment><USER43> I'm sorry, but this post completely lost me. Are we complaining about credit card processing? Are we talking about when to ask for payment for creative work? What are we talking about?

<comment><USER44> From the article:

> Though, the primary benefit of being able to take money isn't really about > being able to take money.

> It's about seeing your product through your potential customers' eyes. Who > they are? Which aspects of what you're building are most valuable to them? > ...Build that atop your payment processing system.</comment></comment>


Why is it so hard to get friends and family to listen to music online? - <AUTHOR> I thought the Internet was supposed to make this process easier, but every time I suggest an artist to people they just give me blank stares, and then at the most ask me to send them a link which they then never check later on...<p>What does it take to convince you to try out music these days!? <comment><USER2> It seems to me that the exact opposite is true. Access to online music through "smart devices" seems ubiquitous to me.

<comment><AUTHOR> It's so easy to listen to music these days... No more record shops and waiting, maybe people are just worn out from too much bad content, paywalls, and pop-ups...

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> If you gave me a link to itunes, Id tell you to pack sand. Link me to youtube, or a service like it and I may comply. People have to want to listen, or it has to be at the right time etc.

<comment><AUTHOR> Well, as indie musicians we battle both algorithms AND apathy... It's hard to tell if we suck or if we're just not showing up... Go easy on us... :P

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Same issue here, most of them are hooked to piratebay.</comment>


Cable and Sat TV companies lost over 670,000 customers last quarter - <AUTHOR> http://www.marketwatch.com/story/cut-your-cable-tv-bill-by-cutting-the-cable-2012-08-15?mod=e2tw <comment><USER2> Certainly no surprise. In the 10 years I've been married we have never paid for cable. Just never been worth our money to get 100 channels we don't want to see for 2 we do. They simply no longer have a good value proposition.</comment>


Movie Recommendation System for Groups of People - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/Movinder/movielens-imdb-exploration <comment><AUTHOR> The code is live and you can try it out on: [https://movinder.herokuapp.com/](https://movinder.herokuapp.com/) (unfortunately, there are only old movies in the database)

We explored multiple methods for the movie recommendation for multiple people: \- Matrix Factorization, \- Collaborative Filtering, \- Siamese Neural Network, and \- LightFM Framework.</comment>


Ask HN: Do I need to tell potential investors about a cease and desist letter? - <AUTHOR> Before I start - I know the best way to get legal advice is to pay a lawyer. We already have a lawyer, but answering this particular question would require a different kind of lawyer and would be expensive. I'm hoping to get some insight from the knowledgeable HN crowd before going that route.
This is my first startup and we're about to raise a seed round. A while ago my former employer sent me a cease & desist letter, claiming my new company uses their IP. Our products aren't remotely similar, and we're not using any of their IP. Our lawyer sent him a response detailing why his case was bogus, and we haven't heard anything since.
Now my question: As a Delaware C-Corp raising money in California, do we need to tell potential investors about the cease and desist? We have not been sued, nor have we received any notice that we will be sued.
Alternatively - is anyone willing to share their stories about raising money with a C&D or lawsuit?
It seems crazy that our startup might die because of a bogus IP claim. <comment><USER2> I don't know if you have to, but if you don't tell investors and then they find out you are screwed.</comment>


Ask HN: Suggestions for crypto tax prep tool? - <AUTHOR> I need to record my losses for 2018. :-p Any suggestions for the best tool to use? I traded on Binance, Gemini and Kraken. <comment><USER2> [https://www.cointracker.io](https://www.cointracker.io).

<comment><AUTHOR> I went ahead with this, seems pretty straightforward. Thanks.</comment></comment>


Aswesome Craigslist Add for a Genetic Engineer - <AUTHOR> http://gizmodo.com/this-craigslist-ad-for-a-genetic-engineer-is-pure-wonde-1696930224

<comment><USER2> Sounds like a Fantastic Four viral campaign (Victor von Doom).</comment>


Berlin Wall vs. Melilla Wall - <AUTHOR> http://laivanaart.wordpress.com/2014/11/09/berlin-vs-melilla/

<comment><USER2> Disclaimer: I am Spanish and I live in southern Spain.

I wonder how it is possible to compare these two... One is about a country divided after a tragic war. The other one is about sovereignty.

I am not able to imagine how opening borders will help a country with huge unemployment problems (near 25%) make its people less poor. However I imagine how a white privileged artist from Germany could think such thing.

<comment><AUTHOR> Spain is just an entry point. Nobody is going to stay there (or e.g. in Italy)... Even Spaniards are leaving Spain for Northern Europe.

As for "sovereignty" \- Europe sucked goods from Africa for hundreds of years... Now it is Europe's turn to be sucked...

<comment><USER2> Under what rule?

<comment><AUTHOR> Life

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> Why does Melilla have a wall but not Ceuta?

</comment><comment><USER4> Sometimes, a wall is a good thing. Here in Ukraine we are looking forward for a wall to be erected between us and Russia. The sooner the better, the stronger the better. Some day democratic transformations will reach Russia too and that wall will be gladly torn down, but I seriously doubt that it will happen within the next 50 years.</comment>