Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job? - <AUTHOR> http://pastebin.ca/2339721 First time posting here. Had to use pastebin because I wrote beyond 2k char limit. Apologies for the annoyance of an extra-step. Please read and respond.<p>Thanks. <comment><USER2> Hi,

I've had a felony for over 8 years now, and have been working as a developer almost the entire time. I've only been asked to disclose that information once, and I did. While the company had questions, they didn't seem to care very much (note: I don't recommend telling anyone. If you're a great employee and a mistake from your youth discounts you from a job, it's a lose-lose. But I did tell, so... ).

College? They cared. I would have had to sit through review boards and go through a lot of extra hoops. So I never went. That's right, I'm a felon with no college degree.

Life is harder. Your paper trail isn't worth anything, so you have to create your public image (link to the SO podcast about blogging?). Let your accomplishments speak for themselves. Be a part of the community. Give back to the community. Get to know people through helping others. Get jobs through recommendations. You may not be able to work at BigCo, I don't think I can. But so many companies are small, I've found it doesn't matter.

You won't ever have to lie on a resume if you build yourself up in the right way.

* And please email me, seriously, if _anyone_ has questions. So many mundane things are a felony, and people need to understand that it isn't a life ending label before they jump to permanent solutions. My probation officer told me, paraphrased "You'll be surprised who else has a felony. They will probably be inclined to give you a chance. So make sure you have a job next visit.".

<comment><USER3> I can "ditto" most of that. I've had a federal felony conviction for computer fraud (against an ex-employer) for over 10 years now and have been employed for most of that time. I was terminated as soon as my case hit the news media, but I was able to find contract work with friends before my sentencing. I was able to pay my restitution in full, which really sucked financially, but was a great feeling and something I'm still proud to tell people. Not long after my probation ended, they offered to hire me full-time at a significant raise. They never did a background check.

Since then I survived two corporate acquisitions, multiple new bosses, new CEOs, etc. Every time I sweated it out waiting to see if my background would come up. I actually heard about conversations with two incoming CEOs about me and both basically responded "he's paid his debts" or something similar. They didn't really care as long as I was trouble-free since then and had been working hard.

I finally got laid off with quite a few others after almost 10 years there. I have a few different friends that know my background that would love to hire me for their growing startups, but instead I finally started my own mobile app company and have grown it to almost paying all of our bills. In the app store, nobody even needs to knows your name.

You can look at some of my post history here for advice, but in general, you need to expand your circle of friends as much as possible and let them know you are looking for work. Volunteer at things and go to meetups and developer user groups. There will always be people and companies that will refuse to hire you, but there are a decent percentage that will hire you. You just need to increase the number of people you know and the number of potential job openings.

I should also add that I've had almost no issues volunteering for many different organizations that require background checks. I just disclose my background and write an explanation. It sucks every time, but I've never been turned down. I've coached sports at the YMCA, led scouts, taught Sunday school for kids, etc. Every one of those has built my personal character references as well.

I also made a point of being very active online with my real name. Now when someone Googles me, they have to dig through many pages of material to find any press coverage of my conviction.

Just hang it there and keep chipping away at it. I used to think about my conviction every single day. Now I can go a week or more without even remembering it.

<comment><AUTHOR> :) These are the types of posts I was hoping for when I created this thread. Thank you so much for taking the time to write this -both of you. It's just been really shitty to think about lately as far as my future is concerned. I am at a point where I'm beginning to question whether or not the choices I am making now are worth the investment of time (or not) before it's too late to change course. your experiences give me a modicum of hope which serves to reinforce my initial belief that everything I have been doing isn't a complete waste of time.

There's a paucity of information about these circumstances (compu fraud + compu pro) available online and most of the information available is presented from accounts of felons who are not in the same boat as I am.

Really my favorite posts here. Thanks again.

<comment><USER4> I feel your case and I can't imagine how hard it is. Though being a developer gives you more opportunities and freedom than you think you have. All you have to do is to be amazing at what you do. You made the mistake once, you paid you dues, so life goes on. I agree with the parent post -- you should build a great online presence to bury the past, to prove that you are a new person.

I once worked with a friend I made online. He's a great designer. I refered him to another good friend for some work, and this other friend found out the designer had been on the news for a felony a few years back ( long story short, he pretty much used his design/photoshop skills and got into trouble with the laws). His case got cleared afterward, but searching for his name on Google still returns the articles from the past.

My other friend didn't work with the guy because of this, but in the end, my designer friend is still happy because he got his life in order. He's a great guy and he didn't let his past impact him too much. He even helped me when I needed some money to survive, he was there to send me some work for the badly needed few hundred bucks.

Good luck. Life is too short to worry too much about the past. Learn new skills, make new friends, become an awesome developer to create more values for society. Look at rappers like JayZ or 50Cents for inspirations. They were put in jails, shots multiple times, and yet they are hugely successful entrepreneurs now.

If you're good, people can't ignore you for long. Email me your resume, I always look for good developers to connect.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> While some larger corporations might not let you through the HR filter, that doesn't need to be the end of the story.

For myself as an entrepreneur looking for great developers, I don't give a whit about some dalliances from your youth. In fact, if the exploit was great enough, it might even be a selling point for your creativity and technical skill.

Be up front about who you are, and look for startups that will appreciate your talent and skill, and might even enjoy hearing some of the stories you've undoubtedly amassed.

Don't go for a job where you have to hide (or worse, lie about) your past. You'll be looking over your shoulder and stressed out, when you should be enjoying your work and finding fulfillment.

<comment><USER6>
        While some larger corporations might not let you through the HR filter

I've worked for quite a few large corporations i.e Fortune 50 and not a single one has done a police record check. Unless you are applying for Boeing, Lockheed Martin, NSA or something similar it frankly is none of their business.

<comment><USER7> Anything in the financial sector will get you fingerprinted and at least a cursory FBI records check.

<comment><USER5> Quite true. I worked for large digital agencies for much of my career until now, and while we may or may not do our own background checks (I don't know since I was not in HR), I've had a number of clients in the financial sector over the years. If I had been unable to pass a background check with a client, it would have been detrimental to my position at the agency, to say the least.

<comment><AUTHOR> Unfortunately true. I've encountered that problem where I am now and have had to sign so many agreements with legal dept heads from other agencies that I've lost count. My employer (work in NPO sector) has really assumed some really huge risks by having my on board. The approach for me being exposed to certain at-risk data (at my work there are ssn from clients, login credentials to affiliated networks ran by my state) is routinely addressed by sign NDA as a group of lawyers threaten to destroy me if anything should go awry.

The director of the agency where I work has been tremendously instrumental in arguing and supporting me in these instances.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Though it is impossible to quantify, I think as a society we're probably starting to lose a lot of potentially great second acts from people who made early mistakes due to the way everything is tracked, monitored, and easily searchable these days.

I wish I had some good practical advice on this subject, but my only advice would be things already said here: freelance, or stick to companies small enough that there isn't much HR bureaucracy in place yet.

FWIW, in my teenage years (I'll be 40 this year) I did quite a lot of "freelance, unofficial security work" and I know a lot of other people who did, some of whom are relatively famous (within certain communities anyway) who did the same and pretty much the only difference between them/me and you is not getting caught, or being located in a jurisdiction that didn't care enough to press charges at the time. So good luck, man.

</comment><comment><USER9> * Freelancing & consulting could be beneficial in your situation.

* Applying to smaller companies without HR departments could also work in your favor. They probably won't have any kind of background checks or standardized lists of questions they ask everybody. Don't lie, but you don't have to volunteer info either.

<comment><USER10> Agree on freelancing and consulting. OP, you've got a (fairly) unique qualification you can trade on -- not many folks have been through what you have. That's got to be a valuable asset. I'd encourage you to go out there and wave it around rather than hope it doesn't get discovered.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> This is actually a problem with how US society works.

It's in society's best interests for someone in OP's position to become a productive member of society again. But if they're eternally refused employment, education, and passport due to the background check, how is someone supposed to recover their life after that?

The problem is cultural, we need to be more forgiving of peoples' past. As more and more of the population becomes more and more searchable, this sort of relaxation is inevitable. But social change takes time.

<comment><USER12> As someone who was convicted of a felony at age 19 and immediately turned his life around (yet still suffers the consequences), I wish more people felt the way that you do. Thank you.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> I've been at several startups and never undergone a background check, to my knowledge. I've never been asked any "Have you ever..?" questions. So this is less of an issue than you might think. I get the sense companies only start doing background checks when they grow large enough to become targets for litigation.

<comment><USER14> Or when you're applying at a place without having a good friend that works there who can vouch for you/friends with the CEO, etc.

Networking gets past almost any trouble, where trouble is defined as the sort of thing that shouldn't stop you from getting hired but does.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Just my opinion but I don't think this would be a deal breaker at many startups and might even be a little badass.

<comment><USER16> Indeed; smaller companies are willing to overlook stuff like this if they think you're good. You'll find a lot less nonsense on small teams.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Well, you don't have to lie on your resume or on your interview but have you considered just not mentioning it? Unless you're applying for certain types of jobs they're not going to do a background check on you, and you're unlikely to be under any obligation to disclose that you were convicted of computer fraud if you're applying for a computer related job.

Also, think about taking jobs in countries that aren't the U.S.. It might be nice to have a fresh start somewhere else, but I don't know what sort of visa troubles you'd have with your record.

<comment><USER18> The US generally won't issue passports to convicted felons. (That's the Google consensus, anyway.)

<comment><USER19> The U.S. Department of State (DOS) may deny your passport application or renewal for a number of reasons, including if you:

        Are in default on a repatriation or medical assistance loan
        Are behind on child support payments
        Are subject of certain court orders or a foreign extradition request
        Were committed to a mental institution, or legally declared incompetent by a court
        Were subject to a previous denial or revocation
        Were issued a temporary passport for specific reasons

More detail [1][2]. Being denied the ability to leave your country, _especially_ if you have been convicted of a crime, is a violation of your human rights. It is widely recognized, of course, that drug traffickers have no rights, and thus the US may freely discriminate.

[1] [http://www.uscis.gov/ilink/docView/22CFR/HTML/22CFR/0-0-0-1/...](http://www.uscis.gov/ilink/docView/22CFR/HTML/22CFR/0-0-0-1/0-0-0-2898/0-0-0-3335.html) [2] [http://www.uscis.gov/ilink/docView/22CFR/HTML/22CFR/0-0-0-1/...](http://www.uscis.gov/ilink/docView/22CFR/HTML/22CFR/0-0-0-1/0-0-0-2898/0-0-0-3379.html#0-0-0-709)

<comment><USER20> I wonder.. technically, not having a passport doesn't prevent you from leaving the country. You can get in a boat and take off. Leaving by plane is difficult, as well as legally entering another country.

Is it actually illegal to reenter the US as a citizen without a US passport? I would hope that as a US citizen you have a right to entry and visiting a US Consulate in another country would start the process regardless of whether you are a felon.

<comment><USER21> Exiting the US on foot at the Mexican border involves no check of any kind of documentation-- you just walk through a couple turnstiles, and a Mexican Marine may search your bag if you look suspicious.

That, of course, makes it easy to be in Tiajuana without a passport. From what I heard when I lived in San Diego, if you bring a US drivers' license, and especially if you also bring a US birth certificate, the border agents may chew you out, but they will let you into the US.

<comment><USER20> Given this, I wonder what the rationale is for denying felon's passports? I mean, if it doesn't prevent you from leaving the country or entering the country, both of which are violations of international law.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> After almost 20 years in the industry my considered advice is pursue another career.

That might not be the answer you want to hear but after thinking about it a bit that's my honest advice. Here's the reasons:

\- Of all the employers I've had not one of them would have hired you.

\- If somehow you "snuck in" and your past came to light, you would have been fired anywhere I've worked.

\- Unless I knew you really well personally (as in friends for multiple years), I wouldn't hire you, based purely on your past. It's nothing personal, you might be a great, smart person. But it's a matter of the odds; your past makes you a risk that's not worth taking unless I know you well enough to be certain that you would never do anything like that again, and there's just no way you're going to convince me of that through an interview process.

The last one is the real sticking point, because I know what it's like to be a young kid on BBSes and the internet and wanting to try to break things, etc. But even with that understanding, I still wouldn't trust you unless I knew you really well.

And that's why I'd recommend pursuing another career. And you should think about this carefully because being a convicted felon (and I'm assuming it was a felony charge) will stop you from being able to do a lot of other careers. Honestly I'd do some research on careers for people with felony convictions.

<comment><USER2> I have to respectfully disagree. At least the OP has a foot in the door in this field. Moving on to something else would mean starting at the bottom, yet having the same obstacles to overcome.

Some jobs are simply closed off. No way around it. Why hire a felon when you can hire any other equally (based off paper and salary requirements) qualified candidate? Government restrictions may preclude him as well.

If you are basing your options only on your history, then you have to find a career where your history doesn't hurt you. This means applying for jobs that felons apply for. You've done a year in jail, you know the embarassing(to society) level of education of most inmates. I don't think this is really a route you would want to consider.

Don't give up. You will have to work hard, sure. Harder than most. Which is a good quality to have when you find the right position.

<comment><USER23> To add a "soft" argument to this, OP obviously has talent/knowledge (while not enough to not get caught) in his chosen career field, instead of doing something completely different where everyone else has a headstart.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> One of the unfair things about the U.S justice system is that not all felonies are created equal. In Virgina, if you are pulled over for driving over 80 miles per hour (even if you are on a steep hill with no one around you or if everyone else is traveling faster than you) you are charged with reckless driving, which is can be a felony or a Class 1 misdemeanor — the same category as Assault & Battery. You will recieve a $3000 dollar fine, and could be convicted of a felony if you don't hire an expensive lawyer , and/or if the judge is in a bad mood that day.

<comment><USER25> There are sections of I-15 where the speed limit is 80MPH. Does Virginia have any such high-limit stretches, such that going 1-5 over is a felony, or is it too densely populated?

<comment><USER24> In the past few years Virginia has passed laws raising the speed limit to 70 mph on some highways. [1] You would have to be traveling at least 11 m.p.h over the speed limit in order to be convicted of reckless driving.

It might seem that it is easy to avoid going this fast, but there are several reasons that you might. It is harder to feel a 10 m.p.h gap when you are traveling at high speeds, especially when the roadway is filled with insane drivers that are tailgating you and cutting you off because you are driving too slowly for their taste. Virginia also has some steep hills, which makes it easy to go to over 80 m.p.h without pressing on the accelerator. Many people also speed unconsciously when they feel stressed or angry, are listening to fast music or an exciting radio broadcast.

[1] <http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+46.2-870>

<comment><USER25> Depending on time of day and tail winds, I've seen dense traffic in my area that would put hundreds of vehicles above 80. It seems too low a limit for reckless driving in modern cars that can handle much higher.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> We hired a guy who had recently finished 7 years in the clink. After he got out he was freelancing in a shared office space. Worked with other devs there whom we hired or knew. They vouched for him.

He's a great dev, good friend, recently finished a PhD while working full time for us. We'd have been stupid not to hire him for the mistake he made a decade ago.

Don't hide your record.

Network and you get work.

</comment><comment><USER27> If you apply to any company small enough to not have a dedicated HR department, I think there's a very good chance that it literally never comes up. Arrest record certainly isn't part of my standard interview questions. (And, in my biased opinion, working at smaller companies is a lot more fun anyway--especially for someone early in their career)

</comment><comment><USER18> Now, more than ever, you don't need to work for someone else (as an employee). If you have the skills, you can do very well as a freelancer/consultant. The pay can be good, the work can be interesting, and they won't run a background check on you.

<comment><AUTHOR> I have tried this approach and it has failed me. The biggest problem with being independent is landing clients who are in need of the service.

I have also tried shotgun approach via private vulnerability disclosure. At best it typically results in nothing more than 'thanks' -- but most frequent is outright ignoring, angry response, bruised egos, threats with law enforcement, and general unpleasantry. -- so I've learned to avoid doing that.

<comment><USER28> Put a way to contact you on your HN profile. You are on the frontpage and will probably get a few leads. Don't waste the opportunity to score freelance clients out of your post...

<comment><AUTHOR> Oh? The front page? Whoo hoo! (is that hard here? it's hard on reddit) I've gone ahead done that just-in-case. I am not really here looking for active leads (though I certainly wouldn't throw away an opportunity if it presented itself as a result of this posting), but some of these responses have been really uplifting.

I am really here pinging this community for people that have been in or have dealt with the circumstances of my disposition who would like to take a moment and give some pointers. So far the response has been better than I had anticipated.

<comment><USER28> Pretty hard yea, especially with an "Ask HN" post

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> I've worked for several startups in the Bay Area, and only one did anything resembling a background check. Although they wouldn't have found anything, I think something bad in my past I'm long removed from wouldn't have been a barrier. Most small company and startup jobs are founded on relationships rather than forms and policies, which is the way it should be.

If your personality, character, ambition, shared vision, portfolio or code samples, work history, or profile in the developer / startup community is well-known, I think your conviction not only wouldn't be insurmountable, I don't even think it would be a blip on the radar. If it ever was, it might even make you cool with the right founders/team.

That said, when the company you're working for gets big, you will have already likely signed something giving them blanket permission to look into you, and during an investor or acquirer's due diligence, I guess it's possible it could come up... which would suck if it's right before an equity cliff or something.

Another idea: I've also done 1099 contract work for big health insurance companies as a contract developer. Salaried employees had multiple background and credit checks because they were working with HIPAA Protected Health Information... so was I, but I not only made more money than the salaried employees, I didn't do an application, interview, background check, etc.

I think 95% of it is your attitude going in. In your head, you're probably thinking that felony convictions are the only thing on the potential employer's mind, so you're self-conscious about it. Find the right type of employer, concentrate on the relationship and the opportunity together, and it shouldn't be a concern at all. (IANAL, TINLA)

</comment><comment><USER30> One thing you said is "I don't actively engage in or create any new projects outside of classwork and giving advice to other developers. I am kind-of stagnant and it is depressing."

Change that. Write some new and useful things, publish the code on GitHub, and run them on one of the free/cheap hosting services.

That's part of your problem: No recent achievements. Create some!

<comment><AUTHOR> This is one of my favorite responses. Thanks.

</comment></comment><comment> guard-of-terra Robert Morris had a similar background (Computer Fraud) and he still got to be YC co-founder.

So I just say that you go on and be happy and successful.

<comment><USER23> > founder

is the key word here

> So I just say that you go on and be happy and successful.

that is worthless advice

<comment> guard-of-terra What's wrong with being founder?

<comment><USER23> Nothing, that was my point. For OP it would make a lot of sense to found a company / consult / etc instead of working _for_ a company, to get around his felony.

The part with "worthless advice" was about the whole "oh, also be successful and happy" thing.

<comment> guard-of-terra "be successful and happy" is a useful advice because there is an option of "struggle really hard but you will make it".

But it's not, IT/programming has no downsides, just dive into it and it's awesome.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> Any other career choice you will probably be worse off. At least in the CS world you might be able to spin it as a positive if you specialize in security. Freelance work is also an option. Assuming you are trying to get a degree to be more employable, the places that require a degree are also likely to avoid hiring you. The degree does show some measure of reform so places that hire on merit will probably like that you have a degree.

Background checks are really cheap. I've worked at really small companies that outsource most of HR and payroll to a larger company. Those places always do the background checks, don't think that smaller places won't do a background check. If you lie and they ever find out that's an instant firing.

</comment><comment><USER32> Nobody cares at a job worth doing. Don't apply for IT departments, apply for mid to late stage startups in the bay area or other intense tech areas.

I don't know anyone who would be worried about giving you the root password to hundreds of machines because you broke more exciting rules when you were younger than we did.

Stop telling yourself that you can't have what you want, and get it!

<comment><AUTHOR> I live on the east coast. Most of the startups around here are all looking for "interns" they do not have to pay.

I have actually been encouraged by people to move to that area (and some areas in Texas) but at this point in my life it seems like a really big change to make. When I finish school I would like to explore that option. It is something I have been seriously considering.

<comment><USER2> I'm east coast, have extra work (not security unfort), and won't run a background check on you. Are you trying to stick with security? Or does any development work suit you?

<comment><AUTHOR> Depends on language and the type of work. Shoot me an email?

<comment><USER31> Really? You are worried about having to switch majors because you might not be employable and yet you want to be picky? If it is a language you don't know then tell them you'll freakin learn it just for the job!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> Perhaps you should consider applying for positions where the skills that got you in trouble would be an asset, i.e. penetration testing, security research/consulting

<comment><USER2> I found that this field has changed significantly in the past 15 years. I got my first job through getting caught hacking in high school. But today, there are so many more applicants who are qualified, and they are coming right out of college, that the pool is large enough where the government can enforce restrictions.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> To the OP, it would seem reasonable to inquire with an attorney about petitioning to have the conviction set aside. I am not a lawyer, but it seems that a restoration of rights via means of an expungement or even a Presidential pardon would be avenues likely open for you.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks rietta. Unfortunately presidential pardons are difficult to get without help from a political connection.

Based on the data (<http://www.justice.gov/pardon/statistics.htm>) in addition to the cumulative experience of those who have turned their lives around for decades and still been denied, I made a decision to try that later when I have a better history to present in my petition.

As you can see, the odds are scary. My chances of getting one without a friend in government (or part of a lobbying body) are really slim.

</comment></comment><comment><USER35> I'd look for jobs in academia, non-profits, or startups, where the conviction itself won't be as much of a bar. I'd personally go with startups -- for most roles at most startups it won't be an outright disqualification. Most startups are too stupid/lazy/rushed to do a background check anyway, but if you get caught later, it's worse than if you disclosed it up front, in many cases (haha MIT admissions director who lied on her resume...)

The worst would be low-skill jobs involving trust (e.g. bank teller); the easiest would be high skill jobs involving no trust (game developer or working on open source software). Sysadmin is in the middle. Security positions require more trust, but would also tend to be more forgiving of computer crimes background.

In the long run, for a federal crime, your best bet is a Presidential pardon (not as hard after you've served time, I think, with a long period of productive work experience since then); that's one thing that sucks about fed vs. state crime. If the law itself is challenged later, that could be a route too.

(IANAL.)

</comment><comment><USER36> Consider looking for positions at computer security companies. It's an entirely respectable field with a... "training dilemma". Good pay, in need of developers, pragmatic about the background of people who end up in the field. A lot (most? all?) of security professionals start out at least on the grey side of hacking.

</comment><comment><USER37> The purpose of putting someone in jail is REHABILITATION. That's right, all caps. The moment someone is released from jail, the legal system sees that person as having a high probability of being rehabilitated (true, not always the case, but that's the fault of the US legal system), otherwise he/she would have not been released. Unfortunately nowadays a big percentage of the population in the US is mentally challenged blood-lusting self-righteous fanatics. So you self-righteous "rockstar" developers that have been posting bullcrap in this thread, you can go fork yourselves. As for the OP, you will have no trouble finding a job. Don't make it public unless explicitly asked, and say no more than necessary. Good luck!!

</comment><comment><USER12> I typed out my (very long) story, then ended up deleting it. Let me offer some advice, however:

When you fill out applications and are asked "the question", lie. As someone who has very strong ethics and morals, it's hard for me to say that. It is, however, absolutely necessary if you wish to work again.

Eventually, however, somebody will probably find out and you need to be prepared to deal with that.

The first time it happened to me, I was fortunate in that I had a great working/professional relationship with my superiors a few levels "up the ladder" (very large company). When they found out, they called me in and confronted me about it. I told them the absolute truth and also explained why I lied about it. They sent me home, mulled it over for about a week, then called me and told me to come back to work. It was never mentioned again.

The next time it happened, I was offered a job at a company after one short interview. When I filled out the paperwork, I lied, of course. It wasn't very long before they found out about it (and this was a _MUCH_ smaller company). The two owners, however, knew that I was friends with the Mayor, who they were also friends with. They asked the Mayor about whether they should keep me and his response was something to the effect of "I would, he's a helluva lot smarter than any of your other guys". (It probably also helped that my boss is pretty shady anyways).

 __*

With regard to Google search results, take control of that shit. Start a blog, write awesome shit, post videos on YouTube, participate in mailing lists/forums, etc. Spread your name everywhere you can so that when you are Googled, it's your own stuff that comes up. If you Google me, you'll get tired of clicking "Next Page" long before you find anything negative.

Basically, lie on the paperwork. If you're honest, they're not even going to give you a chance. If you at least get "in the door", work harder than anyone else. Volunteer to work on things nobody else wants to and do the absolute best that you can at everything. Eventually, they _WILL_ find out. Be prepared for that day.

Good luck, it's not easy.

\-- 15-year convicted felon

</comment><comment> chestnut-tree If you are looking for employment with a company, you will face difficulties (as you describe in your post).

Is self-employment an option for you? The web is one of the most democratic professions. Produce something people want to use and they (mostly) won't care about your background. In fact you can see it here on Hacker News. People post personal or professional projects, few people care about the academic qualifications or otherwise of the posters.

You seem conscientious and determined, so don't lose those qualities. Whatever you decide, good luck :-)

</comment><comment><USER38> I've found that most smaller companies do not do any sort of background check on their potential employees.

</comment><comment><USER39> I would hire you at my company for the following reason:

\- Your ravenous intellectual curiosity. Sure it got you into trouble, but there aren't enough people with a hunger to learn and tackle challenges.

I would not hire you if I didn't believe

\- You were truly remorseful \- You wouldn't get bored in a straight gig and become a liability to the company

I believe that you can use history as a good predictor of future behavior, but a mistake someone made 10 years ago as a youth should be past the statute of limitations. Let me know if I can help...

</comment><comment><USER40> You've created an eloquent plea for advice on how to answer the question, and I guess my answer is that you need to be that eloquent when explaining why you want a particular job.

There is something in your favor ... none of the good jobs (i.e. the ones you want) are going to be filled by people that only fill out the job application. My last three jobs included me filling the job application out (for the HR drones to say it was complete) after the interviews were done and a hiring agreement was reached. So my advice is to network, push your way into the minds and hearts of the employers you'd like to work for, then let them hire you. Make sure the person making the hiring decision hears this story and assure them it's ancient history.

When you finally get around to filling out the job application, be honest and when you get to the conviction question, don't check either box. If it's a paper form, write "see attachment" and affix a copy of the letter you just posted. For an on-line application, ask to meet with HR instead of filling out the on-line form. In both cases, let HR know that the hiring manager knows the details of the story and is unconcerned.

So the bigger question is where do you live (or where would you like to live?)... you can start building your network on HN today!

</comment><comment><USER41> Your best bet is to leverage your social circles to get an entry point to your first job. Once you have that, then the conversation shifts as people will see that job as vouching for your progress.

"the pursuit of this degree is a waste of time"

At this stage of the game, what you need is someone to lend you personal credibility, and a degree won't do that for you.

If you do see this, shoot me an email (included in my user page)

</comment><comment><USER42> Have you tried security related companies?

<comment><USER34> Kevin Mitnick seems to be doing well with <http://mitnicksecurity.com>. Granted his celebrity hacker status may contribute to that success, but it goes to show that a Felony conviction is by no means an impenetrable barrier to creating a consultancy or working for one.

<comment><USER42> Yeah that's what I was getting at.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER43> Start your own freelance business and get a bit of reputation by doing low- level work like web design for local pizzerias, restaurants etc. - no one gives a ____about convictions when hiring a web designer.

It's how I managed to stay afloat (although, I am in Germany).

<comment><AUTHOR> I don't really enjoy taking the time to make things look pretty. I'm not very good at that part of the design process and it takes too long for me (imho) to produce some aesthetic that will never really be functional outside the scope of organization.

I have done it when I've needed money though. Just aggravates me.

<comment><USER43> Get a theme from Themeforest, customize it a bit and you're done. Quick money to grab.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER44> I have another idea. Either you can go on fighting the rejections and slowly building a brand for yourself when your past will no longer matter (I can't comment on whether your current situation is indeed that bad), or you could try graduate school. From what it sounds, you seem to be interested not just in programming, but the more abstract principles and reasoning required in designing software systems. Graduate school can help you channelize that interest and who knows, you might make a name for your self in academia.

You will need some money for that though, but I personally consider that investment worth the potential experience that you can get at graduate school. More valuable than buying a fancy car.

</comment><comment><USER45> I did some dumb things when I was a teenager, and eyebrows get raised when I answer certain questions truthfully (although in my case, none of it quite rises to the level of a federal conviction). In the circles in which I have worked for the past 15 or so years (slinging Ruby, PHP, Node, and so forth), this wouldn't even come up in an interview, let alone elicit more than a few chuckles if mentioned. The only thing that matters is that you're mature enough to be trusted now, and your work will show that. Really, you should have heard the giggles when I said I was leaving work early one night to sit the GED (and I was 25 and making six figures). TL;DR let your work speak for you.

</comment><comment><USER46> I think starting your own company is your best option if you have a previous conviction.

</comment><comment><USER47> The great thing about this industry is that you can build things on your own. It's tough if you are already having to put in 40+ hours a week just to get by; but if you have real skills you should be able to turn them into something profitable.

Perhaps doing penn-testing if you're still into it, or building an income generating product. It's probably also possible to get hired by a startup or through a personal connection.. but my general recommendation would be to create value directly.. since customers aren't going to even know who you are in most cases if you are selling them SaaS

<comment><AUTHOR> You have a fabulous username.

Penn-testing today is growing into something it wasn't when I was having fun. The community consists of mixed talent and a trend is growing as more ease-of- use [e.g: nessus, metasploit] tools become available to infosec "pros". That emergent trend (SaaS?) disgusts and repels me because it eliminates one of the more captivating and rewarding elements of vulnerability hunting (the delicious, delicious, research _experience_ ). Reverse engineers, devs who are able create on-the-fly solutions, and vx community notwithstanding.

Also, as said in a previous post: my experiences with independent private disclosure is most often a futile waste of time - 'thanks' || ignored || threatened with LE.

WRT building an income generating product: I don't have many unique ideas or any marketing experience. I'm currently working with a friend exploring android os internals and platform development. We're going to throw our project into that market and see how it pans out.

I generally only create things I need to try out an idea or get something done. This project strays away from that principle so it will be interesting to see whether or not the venture is fruitful.

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> Freelance.

Been freelancing for close to 13 years and no one has done a background check on me ever. I'm not an ex-con, but if I was one I doubt any of my clients would ever know or care.

</comment><comment><USER48> You should keep your current job and start a business in tech on the side. If you grow it, you can quit your lower paying job - you will have created your own. Maybe try IT consulting or mobile app development. If you go the development route, obviously no one needs to know or will care who was behind it. Even as a consultant, few if any clients will ask you about convictions, and you can simply decline the work from clients that do.

</comment><comment><USER49> This is going to sound a little cliche, but try not to get discouraged by the rejections. After graduating from college I applied to over 100 companies and ended up getting a measly 4 interviews, but one of them did get me a job offer. It doesn't matter if all of the others reject you, it just takes one offer to get you a job.

</comment><comment><USER50> People with convictions have become lawyers. I personally know of one who was a successful lawyer and then tried his hand at cocaine smuggling. Got caught in a sting, served time. Lost his license. Came back and went down a hard road to get licensed again, but he did it.

You can pull it off.

</comment><comment><USER51> I'd say start doing contracting. Given market demands you will get land a contract quickly. Some contracts end up being fu time jobs without benefits. So it might play out better for you. You could also do security work. God knows that there is always work on that market.

</comment><comment><USER52> Become a penetration tester. Do what you loved doing for a job, and without the legal implications.

</comment><comment><USER53> I would say, take the same mixture of creativity and willful persistence that led you to crack systems and apply that to getting a job you are happy with. That combination of character traits will destroy most obstacles in time.

</comment><comment><USER54> The questions some one needs to ask is how old was the OP when he was convicted (where they a minor) and does the USA have an equivalent to the rehabilitation of offenders act?

</comment><comment><USER55> How about emigrating?

Check the conditions in different countries. Here often companies don't do background checks and to rent an apartment you only need to shake hands with the owner.

</comment><comment><USER56> Why not consider forming a startup rather than finding a job?

</comment><comment><USER57> Start your own freelance firm. There's a lot of work for freelancers and outside of the fortune 500 very little background checking of the contractors.

</comment><comment><USER58> Is there something that prevents you from starting your own company?

</comment><comment><USER53> I would hire that dude. Why not.

</comment><comment><USER59> _DISCLAIMER: This is NOT legal advice. I am not a lawyer, and there's a hell of a lot of risk in what I'm going to tell you to do._

When I was a teenager, someone I knew did something nonviolent but pretty bad (severe academic dishonesty) and had a non-empty answer to the "Discipline Question".

You might judge me negatively for keeping such a person as a friend-- and I shouldn't have, but that's another story-- but at the time, I was naive and not a great judge of character. Anyway, he asked for advice on the Discipline Question and I told him to take an "odds and evens" strategy: rank his choices. For the odd-numbered (1st, 3rd, ...) choices, omit it. For the even- numbered ones, full disclosure. The idea was that whether the information would be disclosed (by the Guidance Office) was an unknown but constant variable: they'd either tell all colleges or none.

If his HS Guidance Office disclosed to all, he'd have a slight chance of getting the ones where he did disclose (his evens) and no chance of getting the ones where he omitted (the odds).

If Guidance disclosed to none, he'd have a slight chance of getting the evens and a pretty good chance (they wouldn't know) of getting the odd-numbered choices.

His HS took his mistakes off the record, so they didn't disclose. He did well on his odd-numbered college choices and zeroed the even-numbered ones. If I recall correctly, he got 3 out of 5 odds and 0 out of 5 evens. Not a lot of data, but the conclusion was: don't answer the Discipline Question.

There isn't a constant, hidden variable (guidance office) for your case but it's still unpredictable how easily employers will find out and how your conviction will be perceived. There are hidden variables you can't easily measure.

So I think "odds and evens" is the right strategy. Full, honest disclosure with half. Full omission with half. Collect data. Iterate.

You didn't hear this from me. I don't know the details and I'm not a felon, but I think it is pretty fucked up how _any_ felony leads to long-term economic disenfranchisement, so I sincerely hope this advice helps.

With governments, full disclosure always. It's unambiguously illegal to lie about a felony conviction to get a government job. So tell the truth.

Get a lawyer, too. Find someone who's dealt with this and knows the risks. I don't think my "odds and evens" approach is, to quote Inception, "strictly speaking, legal".

<comment><USER60> If you hide it you risk being discharged a month, a year, or five years from now when your employer finds out, and then they aren't referenceable.

If I were hiring for a security-related job, I'd consider the poster if he not only disclosed the conviction, but also contextualized it on his cover letter the way that he did in the pastebin, and if he provided some character witnesses (teachers, employers).

<comment><USER59> _If you hide it you risk being discharged a month, a year, or five years from now when your employer finds out_

Long-term job security no longer exists. When you take a job, you are always at risk that it ends. For sure, this risk is real. He might get fired for hiding that detail. On the other hand, that likely means he wouldn't have gotten the job in the first place. Which is worse: getting a job for a couple years, building up savings, and then getting fired... or not getting any jobs and being long-term unemployed?

There are no easy answers here. We're comparing bads here. There are risks either way.

 _and then they aren't referenceable._

At 1 month, you just omit it.

At a year or 5 years, there are two cases. One is where the boss likes you but has (or feels he has) no choice. He probably didn't find you out or make the decision and he may want to help you out. You can discuss the reference issue and he'll probably be your ally.

If he's genuinely mad and won't give a good reference, then make him retreat to name and dates. Have lawyers on it if needed.

In the very-rare case that you need an affirmative good reference (default name-and-dates won't be enough) and he won't give it, then you have to go to extortion. That's an uncommon and ugly topic that I don't want to get into, but at 1-5 years, you have enough important knowledge to make that happen, unless he _really_ hates you.

<comment><USER61> You seem to be working under the delusion that the worst thing that can happen if you lie to your employer is that you might lose your job. No.

<comment><USER62> In some high profile cases, people haven't even lost their jobs (e.g. [http://readwrite.com/2012/05/03/10-executives-who-lied-on- th...](http://readwrite.com/2012/05/03/10-executives-who-lied-on-their- resumes-and-2-who-got-away-with-it)) and the damage was limited to their reputation and bonuses. I'm surprised there weren't more shareholder lawsuits or similar in the case of CEOs. Obviously if your employer is a government lying can result in jail time but other than that it seems the worst that happens is you get fired or lose your bonus. What else have you seen?

<comment><USER63> I can't believe that Warren Cook didn't make the list. His story is far more outlandish than any of these. He was one of the highest paid employees at the company my father worked at, the Jackson Laboratory in Bar Harbor, ME.

He claimed to have a Master's degree from a prestigious university, that he was awarded the Navy Cross(1 step below the Medal of Honor) and that he played for the 1968 U.S. Olympic hockey team. No one fact checked a single qualification that he listed on his resume, they just hired him.

The sad part is, after they discovered that he was a fraud, they still wanted him to stick around. From what I hear, he did a pretty good job.

[http://archive.bangordailynews.com/2003/09/30/jackson-lab- of...](http://archive.bangordailynews.com/2003/09/30/jackson-lab-official- resigns-warren-cook-sr-admits-to-including-false-listings-on-resume/)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> I'd like a lawyer to explain the legal distinction between a felony and a misdemeanor. Over my lifetime it seems that the the number of felonies has grown enormously and many of them don't seem to be for offenses that have much harm relative to many misdemeanor offenses.

<comment><USER64> A misdemeanor is an offense that can yield no more than a year in jail and requires only a conviction by trial. A felony is considered a "high crime" and is defined as an offense that can yield more than a year of prison time. Felonies require an indictment (basically a preliminary jury hearing to determine if there is sufficient evidence to go to trial), and then a conviction by trial. Felonies generally are much nastier records wise, require more time before they can be sealed or expunged (depending on state law) if they can be at all. They exclude you from certain rights such as gun ownership, voting, holding public office etc automatically. The system is fairly skewed and crimes are often made felonies in a reactionary context, i.e. some trivial computer crimes can yield felonies while cracking another mans skull under the right circumstances may only yield a misdemeanor assault charge after plea bargaining.</comment></comment>


Twilio is bleeding money - <AUTHOR> http://www.diggz.org/index.php/2012/10/16/twilio-is-like-the-worst-girlfriend/

<comment><USER2> As a dev, this sort of marketing tends to push me to your competitor (Twilio, to be clear). I've done a little work with both, though, and Tropo is good enough that your time is better spent on technical merits than this sort of thing. Or, start a series going over the gnarly technical problems and 10,000 ft overview of Tropo's architecture. I'm sure that'd be an interesting read, and if it adds a tool to my toolbox, I'll likely remember Tropo when I need a voice service again.

Though, this all hinges on me being your target market. Quite an assumption on my part!

<comment><USER3> Not sure if you're our target market, however, if you want some technical merits, I posted some in the comments here: [http://www.diggz.org/index.php/2012/10/16/twilio-is-like- the...](http://www.diggz.org/index.php/2012/10/16/twilio-is-like-the-worst- girlfriend/#comment-1875)

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> [http://techcrunch.com/2012/10/17/twilio-is-crushing- it-150k-...](http://techcrunch.com/2012/10/17/twilio-is-crushing- it-150k-developers-1-5m-api-calls-a-day-1b-total-phone-calls-expanding- to-20-more-countries/) :)

</comment><comment><USER5> What is his evidence for the claim in the title, other than that they have been raising increasingly large amounts of money (typically, all other things equal, a sign of health)?

</comment><comment><USER6> Diggz is the Chief Evangelist at Tropo...

<comment><USER3> Of course I am. I spent the first 6 paragraphs of the post explaining that :)</comment></comment>


HTML5 Canvas & Processing JS - <AUTHOR> http://joeycadle.com/blog/article/1/2012/22/01/html5-canvas-and-processing-js <comment><USER2> I'm a huge fan of processing and processing.js . I come from a design background without any formal training in software development. Processing has been a really easy way for me to get visual results quickly without a degree in software engineering. I've tried to start using it on my blog as a way to quickly visualize ideas about more abstract topics [1]. I'm hoping to do a lot more experimenting with it in the near future.

[1] [http://www.emergentforms.com/blog/2012/01/23/growth-vs- robus...](http://www.emergentforms.com/blog/2012/01/23/growth-vs-robustness/)

</comment><comment><USER3> Can someone elaborate as to what purpose strike-throughs serve on this article? Am I right to assume they are a mistake?

<comment><USER4> I assume he meant to underline and used strikethrough instead.

Then again, it could be intentional, looking at the source this style is applied inline instead of in a css file.

<comment><USER5> Either way, it's a surprise coming from someone with a professed focus on design.

<comment><USER6> eh. I did it on purpose. I try to do what _I_ think looks different than most. Instead of making those sectional headlines a larger font or underlining them I decided to use strikethrough as I thought the little break from the conventional norm would be noted. Goal achieved, obviously. Sorry I decided to not be a complete sheep in the herd and do things the way EVERYONE ELSE does them. My bads, yo!

<comment><USER3> Please do not take this as a personal attack but strike-throughs are typically used to denote a change of thought or deleted information. As I was reading your article the context was lost as I was struggling to understand why that type was "deleted" or marked as incorrect. Again, I don't want to sound pretentious but the first thing you learn in design school is that breaking conventions creatively only works if you don't cause confusion. As a creative, I completely understand your desire to do things uniquely but I don't think it worked in this case.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> For those who don't quite fully grasp what HTML5 Canvas check out the W3Schools entry for the element before reading any further, but it's basically an element that defines graphics.

RED flag - w3schools. Please check <http://w3fools.com>

<comment><USER6> I'm not the biggest fan of w3 schools either but as it stands if someone is new to design in general, and doesn't fully grasp the concept of such html5 elements, then it stands to reason that they probably trust the definition given by W3.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> This looks very interesting. I've always been disappointed that Canvas totally eclipsed SVG in browsers- SVG elements are _in the DOM_ , so it makes things like click actions a lot easier. It looks like processing.js goes some way to help with the pain of using Canvas.

<comment><USER9> I don't know if I'd say that "Canvas totally eclipsed SVG", it has gotten more attention. But as far as I know libraries like Raphael.js[0] are relatively popular. Additionally Raphael.js has ridiculous cross browser compatibility (For my usage it has actually held up to it's claims of being ie6 compatable), so I'd imagine anyone doing interesting graphical work on the web that has to reach a wide range of users is looking to SVG rather than Canvas.

[0] <http://raphaeljs.com/>

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> Alot of graphing/plot libraries use the new canvas element, I think even jqplot does it that way these days.

WIth Canvas and WebGL I wonder why we dont see more coolness.

</comment><comment><USER11> node-canvas [0], node.js, and processing.js are a very powerful combination for allowing designers to implement server-side image filters.

[0]: <https://github.com/LearnBoost/node-canvas>

</comment><comment><USER12> Site is unreadable on the iPhone.

<comment><USER6> errant view-port metatag left over from my last design, try again :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> Sorry man, but I can't read your site on the iPhone. You've got zooming disabled and the text overlaps the screen. Also the left and top floating bits keep moving around. Stay away from the javascript and just use some static CSS.

<comment><USER6> damn leftover view-port metatag from my last design that was a Responsive design. try again</comment></comment>


Can we prevent a surge in pandemic-related homelessness? - <AUTHOR> https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/08/can-we-prevent-surge-covid19-pandemic-homelessness-eviction-poverty/ <comment><USER2> In the U.S. context, the obvious answer is "no". It's the land of the free, where unions are the devil and talking about social security is compared to wanting to turn the country into Venezuela.</comment>


The Age of Robot Farmers - <AUTHOR> https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/04/15/the-age-of-robot-farmers <comment><USER2> > In 2011, for example, Georgia enacted a strict immigration law that targeted > undocumented workers and their employers. Later that year, the state > reportedly lost eleven thousand crop workers. To fill the gap, officials > established a program whereby nonviolent offenders nearing the end of their > prison terms could do paid farmwork. The program had few takers, and many > prisoners and probationers who did try it walked off the job, because the > work was so hard. Georgia farmers lost more than a hundred and twenty > million dollars.

> "It's very expensive," Wishnatzki said of the process of getting visas for > temporary agricultural workers—they are issued under a program called H-2A > —because of all the red tape and the cost of housing. ("Expensive" is a > relative term: H-2A workers are still among the lowest paid in the country.) > "But at least it guarantees that we have workers, so we're able to plant a > crop," he continued.

Farmers now have to actually _house_ and _pay_ their workers instead of giving them scraps under the table for back-breaking manual labor under the brutally hot Georgia summer sun? It's difficult to sympathize, to put it lightly.

<comment><USER3> > Georgia farmers lost more than a hundred and twenty million dollars

> H-2A workers are still among the lowest paid in the country

Why don't they pay labour $100M?

<comment><USER4> I think a larger issue is that food/resource prices may be too low.

Obviously, the farmers need to charge for the food/resource, but if they aren't able to turn a profit when properly hiring and paying staff/contractors to work for them, that's an issue. We don't know if the $100MM would cover the new cost or not.

I believe there is an issue where we've (the US) relied on such low-cost labor for farms far too long and we do not know how to balance out our supply chain with properly paid labor.

<comment><USER5> Yes, the food market is heavily distorted. If giant ag businesses that employ immigrants can't make a profit, it means there's too many farms in operation. Farms will close, food prices will rise, and the market will stabilize.

A huge positive to this, smaller family-run farms that don't hire immigrant labor would actually be able to compete with the larger industrial farms. We might even be able to reduce total miles food travels farm to table because it's simply not profitable to ship produce cross-country when local farmers can produce at a competitive price.

<comment><USER6> I'm not sure even that would overcome the hyperoptimization capital trap advantage big industrial farms enjoy.

I'm still pretty shallow in my understanding of the Ag industry, but the last research I'd done showed that process optimization gaps driven by capital access disparity, and an increasing encroachment of vertically integrating distribution businesses were the major drivers of small farms out of the market.

The wage hits through access to capital to pay workers will also hit smaller operations harder in the sense the smaller you are the fewer people feel safe investing in you.

It'd be nice if it would sort itself in favor of the little guy, but I'm just not seeing it.

<comment><USER5> > It'd be nice if it would sort itself in favor of the little guy, but I'm > just not seeing it.

Smaller farms already exist, despite the unfavorable business conditions. If we're talking something like corn or soy beans, we're talking about massive direct subsidies as well. But if we're talking about thing such as berries or apples, there are lots of successful smaller, local producers.

Imagine how much _more_ successful those smaller farms would be. And, it might re-invigorate complementary local businesses, such as small tractor dealerships, fertilizer, what have you.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I'm solely in the consumer camp: I don't produce food, I buy and eat it (I don't buy and sell it either).

I think we've been trained to assume cheap food is a goal. I think the goal should have been clearer: _cheap enough but not too cheap_

The economics here are complicated. It benefits me to have cheap food, but if the cost is ag workers with systematic health problems, low income, farmers going bust, prison labor being used, its actually not really an overall benefit.

The price of strawberries needs to reflect the real costs here which include paying pickers a living wage.

Replacing pickers by robots only masks the problem, the problem of low paid workers remains: if they aren't picking, what are these people doing, and whats the wider cost?

Here in Australia we have this problem. We exploit backpacker labour (visiting kids on restricted visa) to do picking, we exploit migrant labour from island communities (we actually used to predate them for virtual slaves. Wierd history. Read up on "blackbirding") to do picking. And, we have a duopoloy in the supermarket supply chain which abuses market power to avoid paying farmers a living income stream, sometimes arguing over 10c or 20c price differences.

its really not helping to drive the cost of food down all the time. It has to be a realistic price, or you can't have safe, strategically suitable, sustainable, locally grown food.

I don't want soylent.

<comment><USER3> > if they aren't picking, what are these people doing, and whats the wider > cost?

This idea needs to die so fast. It's an incredible psychosis that people fear the utopia that is automation. Imagine telling people 1000 years ago that everything around them will be done by robots, but that the people of the future would fight it. Psychologists are going to study this for generations.

It's also pretty offensive. The only reason you (or I) are not picking the fruit is because we were born somewhere else. No one deserves to do that. Especially if we know how to avoid it. What kind of sick fuck would subject someone to that just because they had fewer options. What else can they do? Perhaps help fulfill humans' literally infinite wants? What about nothing? I would much prefer nothing than forced unnecessary labor.

<comment><USER8> It's obviously because of the way our economy is set up. One possible outcome of more automation could be higher standard of living while doing less work for everybody. Another possible outcome is a large part of the population being unemployed or underemployed, without health care and trouble to keep housing and even put food on the table, while a small portion of the population that owns the robots lives in luxury. Which of the two alternatives seems right now more realistic? We can't even agree on basic income guarantee which obviously is a necessary step to move towards the desirable of the two scenarios. It's understandable because that clearly would be "communism" and that's always bad and we cannot have that as god fearing, compassionate Americans.

<comment><USER3> Jobs are useless vestiges of the past. There is nothing honorable about jobs and no one cares about them. By their very definition they are things we don't want to do but have to for survival. This is all industrial work-centric brainwashing. If we can get survival without jobs that would be a great win for human kind.

> Another possible outcome is a large part of the population being unemployed > or underemployed, without health care and trouble to keep housing and even > put food on the table, while a small portion of the population that owns the > robots lives in luxury

The whole point is that robots can make everything including more robots etc. We are talking of a world without scarcity. Why wouldn't everyone have health care? It would be virtually free. Everyone will have 10 or 20 robots. Who cares if someone has 40 or 100. Now that labor is solved people can focus on the fulfilling, interesting, human work of creating and inventing. The only job available will be to configure robots in interesting arrangements to make cooler stuff. But since we have so much stuff already, only a few people will do that as a hobby, for free, other people will make art or entertain or raise families or do nothing. Existence is inherently meaningless and filling time with worthless labor is only a distraction. That's the real issue to solve.

> It's understandable because that clearly would be "communism" and that's > always bad

This is also brainwashing, communism is by no means "always bad", it just so happened that economies are too complex to centrally plan and that distributed computing through free individuals (aka capitalism) works better. But if, for example, computation got strong enough, it could potentially be more effecient to holistically and centrally plan an economy. Or in the case of automation, perhaps in a world of plenty, communism becomes the perfect system. I'm not advocating for communism, and I would never want it to encroach on freedoms, but these two cases are viable candidates for success.

<comment><USER9> You and GP likely agree on the same points, but are talking past one another concerning time scale. Their concern is if we automate the pickers of their jobs, what is their immediate recourse? Waiting years for society to establish a better safety net is not an option. One can retrain, but options are limited, and will be more so with greater automation.

The point is to be more mindful of the immediate effects of displaced labour due to automation. Is it a net social/economic gain to have prices slashed by say 10%, while at the same time seemingly externalizing both the social and economic costs of those who lost their jobs?

It makes sense to ask these questions to ensure such a paradigm shift goes smoothly for those affected by minimizing undue hardship.

<comment><USER3> I agree with this. The transition will be tricky and potentially long. It needs to be managed. And you're right that GP was hinting at that stuff too, but I saw a little bit of the misguided mainstream talking-points creeping in that I felt I needed to address.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I used to run an ag tech automation startup, and we were working on how fulfillment center robots could be repurposed for indoor agriculture. This allows a complete change in economics. Strawberries are an important crop, but on-demand nutrition for animal feed and other segments where robotics allows complex alignment of supply chain and resources may be more lucrative in the mid term. Like Walmart just in time delivery for commodities.

<comment><USER11> > ...a complete change in economics

For whom?

<comment><USER10> I would say the full stack of financing from individual farms to investment funds of every type. Project finance funds in particular.

Here is an article about it. Disclosure I wrote it. Only posting as relevant.

Https://agfundernews.com/inside-insect-farming.html

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I was wondering wheather a free supply of food enabled by robots doing the job, and free basic housing could solve some of mankinds problems. Is there literature on the topic, had anyone done the maths?

Utopia or feasible, that's what I am wondering.

<comment><USER3> The issue in the under-developed world is lack of capital, machines, technology, etc. This is more of that. If that's the problem you were hinting at, I don't think this would be the solution.

<comment><USER13> But container ships.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> One of my favorite OSS projects is farmbot. I wish more people knew about it.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r0CiLBM1o8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r0CiLBM1o8)

<comment><USER15> Farmbot is a toy. A nice toy, to be sure, but a toy for rich urbanites who want a little veggie garden and it'll never be anything more than that. It goes nowhere _near_ addressing the scale of real-world farming and I see no way it ever can. The concept won't even scale to small-scale market gardening -- the 1- to 10-hectare scale.

I'm not saying that farm-robotics in general can't work or scale -- it's a something I'm convinced stands a good chance of tackling the enormous fossil- fuel subsidy that factory farming is so dependent upon -- but the Farmbot thing... / _stiffles a giggle_ /.

<comment><USER14> What makes you think that? These first few iterations are expensive (in the thousands of dollars) and require assembly but those are not difficult problems to address over time.

Are you saying people wouldn't want to have an automated home garden in their back yard if they could afford it?

<comment><USER15> No, I precisely said that it's a _nice thing to have_ an automated home-garden for people that can afford it. I _like_ the Farmbot. But it is Never. Going. To. Automate. Real. Large-scale. Farming.

Never.

Real farming -- the modern, factory kind of thing -- the stuff that provides the overwhelming bulk of food (maize, soya, wheat) -- happens on a _massive_ scale over hundreds to thousands of hectares, and the Farmbot concept -- essentially a 2-D plotter with various head attachments -- is just never going to begin to automate that sort of scale. (Downvote me all you want.) Very large mobile robots might work, though I wonder about how the power requirements are going to be met. To my mind swarms of smaller robots seem to be the best bet, but I haven't seen a lot of work going on in that space.

Lettuces and Beetroots are nice. I grow a hell of a lot of those myself. But they don't feed the planet.

<comment><USER16> > Very large mobile robots might work

My (distant and loose, to be sure) understanding of modern farm machinery is that they largely have, compared to just a few decades ago, though the robots still have operator seats and look very much the non-automated versions that preceded them.

<comment><USER15> Yes, that is pretty-much the current state of play - already existing mechanical platforms that have had some more-or-less clever automation (mainly guidance) added.

My thinking is that a smaller-machine, swarm approach might allow us to eliminate the fossil-fuel subsidy. Big machinery is much harder to do without diesel. With small machines, many of them cooperating, renewable energy fueling is much more (I think) approachable. (I may be wrong.)

If we're going to win this climate thing, one of the elephants in the room is decarbonising agriculture.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Every time I read about farm mechanization I remember the Ralph Borsodi work on the book "The Distribution Age". Every efficiency you gain in production scale you tend to lose in distribution efficiency.

The key to sustainable farming is a decentralized small scale. This is the only way to keep transportation, marketing and preservation of the goods low.

<comment><USER18> Those costs are tiny, compared to all other costs. 'Local' is not a goal in itself (except for geopolitical reasons, but that's another topic). For fun, try to do the back-of-a-napkin math on how many bananas you can fit in a container, how many containers fit on a ship, and what percentage of the retail price that makes. Or how much it costs to ship a truck of lettuce heads from Spain to Northern Europe. Yes there are weird cases (flying roses from Eastern Africa to Europe?) but all in all, the costs are tiny.

The next thing then is, of course, that current costs externalize many hidden costs. Which is true, but look at efficiency gains of current gen freight ships, with sails made of solar panels and that sort of thing, and look at the economics of freight shipping - even at double the (shipping) cost, it would _still_ be only a fraction of the retail cost.

Oh and marketing/sales costs for locally grown goods being low is straight up not true. Look at how hard it is for those small scale farmers to sell their wares, schlepping their old vans from farmers market to CSA collection point, and how much of their product goes to waste because of distribution inefficiencies...

<comment><USER17> The costs are tiny because right now they not internalize pollution and social injustice. Yes, "local" is not an end on itself but the same is true for "global". Right now the cost of sending a banana to the other side of the world in a container is small because we are jeopardizing the future of the planet by not putting a price on CO2 emissions. Local food need to spend effort on Marketing because they are more expensive that monocultures, and the reason for this is that monoculture prices benefit from subsidies and not paying externalities. We need to fix this for the sake of future generations and if we do this local goods would be much more competitive and so much more effective in marketing.

<comment><USER18> Well that's exactly what I preempted and refuted in my second paragraph, and my third paragraph was about how, no, just making mass produced food internalize all their costs won't fix all the marketing and sales issues of 'locally produced food', for a broad definition of everything that encompasses...

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> I'm old enough that this title recalls airbrushed illustrations of chrome- plated rockets and robots on distant worlds, in the children's science and technology picture books I read as a youngin.

</comment><comment><USER20> > Each of the robots was equipped with a patented "Pitzer wheel"—the appendage > that does the actual picking. The wheel had six soft-rubber clawlike > "obtainers" that are able to cup the berries and pivot, imitating the > popping action that human pickers make with their wrists.

So they patented the human hand, minus the functionality they don't need?

</comment><comment><USER21> _"Apples, citrus, strawberries, leafy greens, grapes"—those are the five big enough to justify automation._

Some questionable assumptions there.

<comment><USER22> I'm working an an agricultural robotics startup and can confirm that if anything, it's challenging to find robotics use cases in specialty crops that have a large enough market to justify the R&D investment necessary to get the product working in the first place. Corn and soy add up to hundreds of billions of dollars of market value a year, while even a huge specialty crop like strawberries is ~1/100 of that. There's an argument to be made for building out a robotics platform in a crop with higher value per acre (i.e. a specialty crop), then moving to the larger markets (i.e. row crops), but the degree of specialization real world robotics requires is a counterpoint to that - making the jump is often nontrivial.

PS - if anyone reading this is a roboticist/mechanical engineer in the Bay Area and interested in working on something like this or even just talking more, let me know! My email is my username (at) stanford.edu

<comment><USER23> I've mostly been under the impression that the big wins for machine intelligence in farming is weed and pest control.

Although a Mexican friend of mine said strawberry harvesting is utterly brutal. He also said harvesting grapes is easy work compared to anything else.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> I see Robot Farmers still a nice try but not a feasible solution. There are many aspects which are still difficult (e.g. Olives, general Trees with Fruits).

It's the same as for self-driving cars: on daylight and clear condition, they work fine, but in case of snow and in the darkness...well, no

<comment><USER25> Nitpick - self driving cars have worked fairly well in snow and darkness but still manage issues in good conditions eg. hitting fire trucks (Telsa) or not being able to merge in heavy traffic (Waymo).

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> Sounds like it could be useful to know the binary language of moisture vaporators.

</comment><comment><USER27> The limiting factor of automation is still, the amount of human labor you still need. Can it be reduced to zero? Why do you even need the farmers if that's the case?

<comment><USER28> Considering how abusive the human relationship is with the land and the animals, why don't we have an agricultural revolution and creates 10s of millions of jobs for farmers? Modern human imagination is so constrained to think that this is impossible. But really it's just political and as easy to do as it is to automate millions of jobs away.

<comment><USER27> The green revolution eliminated a lot of farming jobs. It is a step forward in the right direction.

If I wanted a burger, wouldn't it be more humane to have an automated system that takes in raw material and synthesizes it on demand instead of on using third-party human labor?

The key is that these collection of machines are also able to repair and maintain themselves. Some kind of hardware CRC.

<comment><USER28> > It is a step forward in the right direction.

Perhaps there were many positives as well as a few significant negatives.

> takes in raw material and synthesizes it on demand instead of on using > third-party human labor?

Replicator tech isn't coming down the line. In the meantime yes in a bath of chemicals you can produce an overpriced engineered patty of cells. This is highly processed food and I can't wait to see what cost cutting and business optimization will do to this ethical food.

In the meantime automation most likely means more chemicals, more genetic engineering, more intensive agriculture.

Why can we get away with all of this? Well because it works. That's its claim to fame. For how long? No clue. But for now it works and feeds billions and generates profits, at least for the billion dollar corporations at the very top of the game... at what cost? We don't have to actually account for those, we'll just declare bankruptcy and the profits will already be doled out.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> Sounds like yet another argument for why we might need Universal Basic Income sooner rather than later, or some other innovative solution. Isn't there a candidate for president whose campaign is based on that?

<comment><USER30> One French presidential candidate ran with that on the last elections. He was the candidate for the Labour party (Parti Socialiste), one of the two major party of France (equivalent more or less to the Democrats in importance), so not a niche candidate either.

He did something like 3% and the Parti Socialiste is dead now, replaced by Macron's party.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> We need basic income now.

<comment><USER32> Lots of countries have an aging pop of farmers where young people are not very attracted to that as a career. This satisfies that trend and allows those regions to remain productive with even fewer people.

<comment><USER33> All we need is a robot to eat the people that are no longer needed in the area.

<comment><USER34> Don't need a robot for that. Pigs will eat anything.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Zombie-Town USA: Disease Dynamics Simulation - <AUTHOR> http://mattbierbaum.github.io/zombies-usa

<comment><USER2> This a javascript implementation of the simulations that we used to study zombies on the continental US. More details can be found in the preprint on the arxiv [http://arxiv.org/abs/1503.01104](http://arxiv.org/abs/1503.01104)

The parameters are (1) the kill to bite ratio which is the relative ability for a human to kill a zombie and a zombie to bite a human, (2) the walking speed of a zombie (the time to walk 1 mile), and (3) the number of simulation steps in between redraws (so it can be tuned to work on various hardware responsively).

</comment><comment><USER3> What is kill to bite ratio?</comment>


Ask HN: Australian considering moving to SF with a few questions. - <AUTHOR>

Hi, If anyone has done this (or something similar) before, I'd love to hear  about your experience and any advice you may have (keep in mind that right now this is just an idea).
Next year I'm thinking of either going to somewhere in Europe (Amsterdam or Sweden) or SF, I have an Australian passport and a Maltese one (hence Europe).
1. If I were to find work in the US while I am there, how hard/what is the process to get a working visa if I am there on a holiday visa?
2. If I were to keep my current position and work remotely (keeping my Australian salary) and stay on a holiday visa, is this legal?
3. Any general tips or advice about what area/s are best to meet some chilled out, smart, like minded people?
4. How much should I expect to pay for a room or a studio in a decent area (I have no idea what a decent area is, so any advice would be very much appreciated)
My reasoning for wanting to go over is more for a change of scenery and culture than the "I need to be in SF to do a startup" mentality that many people seem to have (at least from what I've read), California just seems like a really cool place to live, with lots of really smart people and good attitudes.
For the record, I'm 19 and like Go, Ruby, Javascript, C++ and Haskell.
Thanks in advance, I really appreciate it! <comment><USER2> At age 19 you probably don't have a superannuation but if you do expect a metric ton of income tax problems in the USA if you file tax returns here as a resident.

\- it's a retirement plan for you in Australia but the United States doesn't see it as such. It's an ordinary taxable investment account for the U.S. tax system.

\- if the superannuation has mutual funds as assets, these are Passive Foreign Investment Companies for the U.S. tax system. Form 8621. Hilarity ensues, etc.

\- you may or may not have to file Form 3520/Form 3520-A in the U.S. because the U.S. system may/may not think your superannuation is a "foreign trust" as defined in the U.S. tax system.

Translated: this means preparing and filing a U.S. income tax return as a resident is a complex and expensive proposition.

Suggested: the U.S./Australian tax system will be broken until someone brings in the Serious People in Dark Suits (aka the diplomats); the U.S. tax authorities (Treasury Department boffins) seem unwilling or unable to see that this is a problem.

Practical suggestions: (1) don't become a U.S. resident for income tax purposes (see IRS Publication 519 for the rules); (2) if you plan to be in the USA for a while and work, terminate your superannuations; (3) alternatively, if you plan to be in the USA for a while and work, learn the hard stuff for U.S. income tax return filings or pay someone a lot of money for the first year and then copy what they did for the second and subsequent years.

</comment><comment><USER3> > 3\. Any general tips or advice about what area/s are best to meet some > chilled out, smart, like minded people?

It depends on what exactly you want to do: 1) Meet tech folks, learn about interesting technologies? Go to meetup.com, find a bunch of talks held at companies, go there, meet other folks, go to their company events, rinse, repeat. 2) Meet interesting folks who may not be tech: Do a bunch of bar crawls, go to interesting music festivals etc.

> 4\. How much should I expect to pay for a room or a studio in a decent area > (I have no idea what a decent area is, so any advice would be very much > appreciated)

I would advise staying away from the Tenderloin or some sketchy parts of the Mission. Sketchy is a personal tolerance level discovered only by physically visiting these places and figuring out your comfort zone. Noe Valley, The Haight, Pacific Heights and parts of the Mission (Close to Dolores Park) are great places to live. Prices here are expensive: You are likely to pay anything between $1500 - $2500 for a studio.

<comment><USER4> I agree with you on the relative tolerance/perceptions of dodgy areas. I stayed at a hostel in the Tenderloin area in SF and found it to be pretty reasonable. Was a bit shady but compared to some of the areas where I grew up it was not too bad.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> Good on your for travelling. I'm an aussie living in Boston, I originally came over on a H1B visa, but those are virtually impossible to get as there's a small number for the entire world. You should look at the E3 work visa. It's an employer sponsored visa, but it's only for Australians and is considerably easier to apply for: <http://canberra.usembassy.gov/e3visa.html> As far as working while you're in the US on holidays, you're not allowed to work for any US companies. But you should check the USCIS.gov website about this. Be careful, because the US is pretty strict about working. Can't give you any advice for SF, but I'd be happy to show you around Boston if you're ever in the neighborhood! Good luck with everything!!

</comment><comment><USER6> Here's a fantastic post on how to obtain an E3 visa: [http://www.geoffmcqueen.com/2011/09/28/e-3-visa-for- australi...](http://www.geoffmcqueen.com/2011/09/28/e-3-visa-for-australians- how-to/). It's a founder-orientated post but certainly covers a few key points.

I moved to SF 3 months ago from Sydney and have found the place very cheap to live. SF is viewed as very expensive by most Americans, however, it's got nothing on Sydney or Melbourne. I.e. my currently monthly rent is $845 p.m. for a room in Dogpatch.

</comment><comment><USER7> Great questions, you asked them for me.

Are you in a startup or looking for paid work before you move if not? We need someone to do some C++ for us before we move over to SF next year (from Brisbane)

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the potential offer, I really am quite happy with my current work in Brisbane though - I hope you find a great C++ guy!

<comment><USER7> Hah, so you are in Brisbane - how about that. Our co-founder/developer is really good, but somehow managed to graduate with out any network. If you know anyone looking for good pay in a fun work environment, maybe let me know! Good luck with the move :) firstname.lastname@example.com

<comment><AUTHOR> Will do Marty, I actually have someone in mind. I'll pass your email along to him.

Good luck with your move also!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for all the info, guys. I'm looking into the E3 visa.</comment>


Brad Feld and David Weekly Interviews - <AUTHOR> http://startup.supercoolschool.com/classes

<comment><AUTHOR> I would agree if the brand would really be so strong. I created this Startup School before even knowing about the ycombinator startup school - as it is unknown in Germany. Plus there is many Startup Schools all over the world that existent before the ycombinator startup school ;)

</comment><comment><USER2> Bjoern, ever heard of Google in Germany? Amazingly when you search on startup school the first five links are about Ycombinator's startup school. In America that is known as a strong brand.

</comment><comment><USER3> If they really call it startup school, it is super disingenuous. YC's Startup School has become a brand in itself which is why as I read the title, I assumed it would be YC's.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> good point rmason - a couple months ago before the last Startup School event - our Startup School was ranked as the top search result ;) ...</comment>


Bell Labs Is Gone. Academia Steps In. - <AUTHOR> http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/16/business/16ping.html?ex=1355461200&en=60137adbd8827a44&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

<comment><USER2> I wonder how things like this might affect startups coming out of universities. In the past, there were people like Dr. Ousterhout who, realizing they had something hot on their hands, would spin it out into a company from the University. A large corporation breathing down your neck might crimp that to some degree.

</comment><comment><USER3> US Public Universities seem to be going down the same path as the US Postal Service (an interesting topic in itself as the USPS is established in the Constitution). The government is cutting them loose. I am wary as to whether this is a good idea or not. Private Universities can take care of themselves, but Public Universities, especially land grant universities (e.g. the entire University of California system), were created for a specific purpose and to serve a specific constituency. It is debatable whether or not large multinational corporations are included in this constituency or if they are appropriate entities that should be driving Public University policy.

<comment><USER4> If the Federal government is cutting US public universities loose, then State governments will have to pick up more of the slack. Or close them.

Having been a professor (now in the private sector), I'm not sure that multinationals will get what they are expecting from academia. Bell Labs and PARC had "applications" built into their DNA. Professors, especially tenured ones, always have an out: academic freedom. Concomitantly, I'm not sure that universities will get what they want, ultimately, either. They are selling their academic horsepower, but may lose academic integrity. It's an interesting relationship.

Having said that, a really smart multinational might get more bang for their buck by funding an army of startups and small research-oriented firms, both with much lower overhead costs than academia (50%+).

<comment><USER3> "...then State governments will have to pick up more of the slack."

The sad thing is State governments are doing the same thing. I reference the illusory "let us fund education with lottery money" mentality many states follow forcing universities and colleges to seek funding elsewhere.

Case in point, Truman State University, the university formerly known as Northeast Missouri State University. Several years ago this institution embarked on a re-branding excercise to become a self-proclaimed "little Harvard" in order to survive. From a financial and quality of education standpoint it has been a successful exercise. "Truman State University's quest to become the nation's leading public liberal arts university" is a demonstrable success regarding national ranking and all the metrics that go along with that ranking. It is serving the nation well as an institution of higher learning. I don't know if the same can be said for Missouri's citizens, especially those of northeast Missouri, whose children are no longer admitted.

I predict that education at public universities will follow the path that their affiliated extracurricular sports programs have followed as they compete for corporate largess. Their will be a "Top 20" group of winners and everyone else. Unfortunately, the Top 20 cannot educate all the students in need of an education.</comment></comment></comment>


Wherein DNA Lounge will be closed soon, without your help - <AUTHOR> https://www.dnalounge.com/backstage/log/2016/12/19.html <comment><USER2> Despite JWZ's snark in blocking HN-originated links, please do have a look at his blogpost from about 12 minutes ago:

[https://www.dnalounge.com/backstage/log/2016/12/19.html](https://www.dnalounge.com/backstage/log/2016/12/19.html)

Unfortunately it would appear (from the declining attendance figures) that SF gentrification has succeeded in "draining the swamp" of his would-be attendance base, to detrimental effect.

But it is quite bold, what he has done. If you live in the bay area, or even visit occasionally - please do give his club (and his pizza restaurant) your strongest support.

Like he says, "hitting Like isn't enough."

<comment><USER3> Use this link instead to avoid being redirected to an inappropriate image ([http://imgur.com/32R3qLv](http://imgur.com/32R3qLv)):

[https://href.li/?https://www.dnalounge.com/backstage/log/201...](https://href.li/?https://www.dnalounge.com/backstage/log/2016/12/19.html)

<comment><USER4> Feels like a "Your business is not welcome here" sign

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Ruby Skye was the one of the it places, back in the day.

Hidden Vine was also chill.

I just don't understand a nightclub that cannot make money with drink prices, cover, events and promos... unless rent is too high and/or in the wrong place.

<comment><USER2> Actually, some places don't _want to_ raise their drink prices (which creates a different vibe, and implicitly, attracts a different crowd). In fact I've known of one most beloved place in NYC that chose to go out of business a few years ago, rather than raise their drink prices -- just to pay the ever- increasing rent.</comment></comment>


6to5 – Next generation JavaScript - <AUTHOR> https://6to5.org

<comment><USER3> [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8425797](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8425797)

</comment><comment><USER4> Their setup guide [1] is the most comprehensive I've seen for any JS transformer to date. They really want to make it as easy as possible for whatever build tool or workflow the developer chooses. It's also shows the state of the build tools' ecosystem and the effort required if you want support all (9 in all for 6to5!).

This looks great though. It's actually the first thing since Browserify that I'll add to my build steps. Great work.

[1] [https://6to5.org/docs/setup/](https://6to5.org/docs/setup/)

<comment><USER5> Wow thanks! I just spent the last few weeks rebuilding the entire website, and worked pretty hard on that page in particular. I'm really glad to hear you like it.

Let me know if there's anything that can been improved with the site or tooling. You can ping me here: [https://gitter.im/6to5/6to5](https://gitter.im/6to5/6to5) (@thejameskyle).

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> We have just started converting our React apps to 6to5. I was experimenting with Traceur for a bit and found it to be slow and resulting in bloated code. 6to5 feels just right. Very happy so far.

</comment><comment><USER7> Very nice. It seems to me this is the final nail in CoffeeScript's coffin - <USER2> that correct?

<comment> k-mcgrady Isn't syntax one of the big reasons people use Coffeescript? That doesn't seem to change.</comment></comment>


Ask HN:Please be careful, read ebay description, what can i do? - <AUTHOR>

his address:GRAYS, Essex, United Kingdom Thoams Clark email@example.com http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=261010492293 http://myworld.ebay.com/eacc2010/?_trksid=p4340.l2559 http://www.myspace.com/fcukedinthehead
This guy is a scammer and trying to fool people by putting a very small description hidden writes "U are just Purchasing a link where you can buy the phone from" and listing this as an iphone and charging people 350 pounds.
I thought i am buying a new iphone, but as a product he sent me the apple store link, so this guy is so genius, he is selling apple store link for 350 pound. this is his reply.'Thank you for your purchase of the IPhone link!The link ishttp://store.apple.com/uk/browse/home/shop_iphone/family/iphone/iphone4sWhich was for sale as described in the listing?Many Thanks'
Today i received a message from paypal saying that "The item is ineligible for PayPal Buyer Protection because it is intangible.", and they closed the case.
Me and two other paypal users had the same results.This guy sold this scam to 5 people, but i don't know the other users, because ebay removed listing, and deleted negative feedback from guy's profile. He still continues to using ebay, can you believe it? if they don't give our money back, do you think we should go to talk to police, and apply to court.? <comment><AUTHOR> i also posted this question on ebay forum.

[http://community.ebay.co.uk/question/Buying-Ebay/Careful- Rea...](http://community.ebay.co.uk/question/Buying-Ebay/Careful-Read- Description/1700071074)

[http://answercenter.ebay.com/question/Paypal/Careful-Read- De...](http://answercenter.ebay.com/question/Paypal/Careful-Read- Description/1000319007)

</comment><comment><USER2> Try your local council's trading standards team.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks i will look into this, i heard that also i can apply to court with letter in uk, without need a lawyer, is it true?

<comment><USER2> Yes, but seek advice from <http://www.citizensadvice.org.uk> (they have lots of relevant information on their site) or some other expert.</comment></comment></comment>


CIA/NSA above the law since 1975, long before the Snowden revelations - <AUTHOR> http://mattstoller.tumblr.com/post/79503748901/in-1975-the-cia-director-told-congress-that-enemies-of

<comment><USER2> We knew they were. But no one knew that they were spying on literally everyone all the time. There was no information that the NSA and British GCHQ were actively watching thousands and thousands of private yahoo video chats etc.

<comment><AUTHOR> It just shows that this a culture and organizational issue that has been going on for a very long time. Now, it's automated and scaled up.</comment></comment>


Seva launches unified search for gSuite, Box, Atlassian and many others - <AUTHOR> https://www.hiseva.com/ <comment><USER2> This looks interesting. However, is there any pricing or list of services it works with available?

<comment><AUTHOR> Alex from Seva here: We are actively building integrations with the most popular services. Here is the list of the active integrations: Gmail, Google Calendar, Google Drive, Dropbox, Box, Slack, Confluence, Jira, Clubhouse. As for the pricing, we are currently offering a free trial. After the trial the price is $10/month</comment></comment>