Paris Exasperates Fiat Chrysler as Renault Merger Flops – Financial Times - <AUTHOR> https://www.ft.com/content/c8546530-887a-11e9-a028-86cea8523dc2 <comment><AUTHOR> From the article:

It was the culmination of weeks of increasing FCA exasperation over the behaviour of Renault's largest shareholder.

Several months earlier, when the private discussions between Mr Senard and Mr Elkann graduated from co-operation into merger talks, the French state had been deliberately brought on board, including a meeting in Paris between Mr Elkann and Mr Macron.

[...]

One person said the process was accelerated over the weekend after the Financial Times reported on Saturday that the two groups were in talks. Once the news became public, the attitude of the French state changed, according to several people.

Questions that both sides believed were resolved were reopened, and new concessions requested.

"It was never enough, the goalposts were being moved constantly," said one person involved in the talks.

[...]

"This deal will hurt the credibility of Macron in Europe and globally," said a person close to FCA.

"This was his chance to play Europe's kingmaker. Instead, he made everything harder. If he was hoping to lift France's image as a place to do business, that's over."

<comment><USER2> Rather unsavoury of FCA to publicly badmouth the other side this way just because they did not want to let you have whatever you wanted.</comment></comment>


Ask YC: Who is going to RailsConf 2008? - <AUTHOR>

I'm going to my first RailsConf this year. I don't know as much RoR as I thought I could pick up, and I'm going to use this conference as a sort of inspirational kickstart. <comment><USER2> I'll be giving a talk on Git on Saturday morning. Looking forward to meeting everybody.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> RailsConf was awesome. Met a number of interesting people. Go Microapps! Ben - I liked your REST presentation though I got lost of the more advanced examples (seems like there is a right way to build REST views and many wrong ways)

</comment><comment><USER3> I'll be there. I'd say we should have a meet up, but I already know everyones schedules are totally booked with beer and werewolf games.

</comment><comment><USER4> I'll be there - I'm speaking about REST and Rails on Saturday

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks. I have your session on my schedule. The sessions I'm interested in lean towards Ruby on Rails hobbyist hacking outside of work but I am hoping to pitch RoR to the entrenched Java/XSD/WebServices folks at my company (which is where yours fits nicely, e.g. a RESTful interface to our ERP apps).

Using jQuery with Ruby, Entrepreneurs On Rails, Oh the Fail I've Known, 23 Hacks...z80 assembler, The Profitable Programmer, ..Titanic.. are the sessions I'm most intrigued in based solely on text descriptions.

Side note: Integration Testing with RSpec's Story Runner - one of my co- workers saw him speak and said the guy is really good</comment></comment>


New York City Sued over Program That Moves Homeless to Other Municipalities - <AUTHOR> https://www.wsj.com/articles/new-york-city-sued-over-program-that-moves-homeless-to-other-municipalities-11575412379 <comment><USER2> Homeless communities are awful full stop. I don't know what the solution is but I constantly see accusations of NIMBYism from people who have never had to watch their neighborhood go from being family friendly to smelling like pee everywhere. Good luck NY.</comment>


Florian Schneider has died - <AUTHOR> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-52564281 <comment><USER2> While a lot of artists like Giorgio Moroder purchased their synthesizers and music equipment, Kraftwerk built a ton of it themselves - drum pads, robot vocalizers, sequencers [1], digital music programming, etc.

One of the biggest influences on everything we call music today. RIP Florian.

[1] - [http://www.doepfer.de/maq.htm](http://www.doepfer.de/maq.htm)

<comment><USER3> This is actually much more myth than truth. There may have been a few bits and bobs that they modified themselves but anything that was custom built was done by people that worked for them. Kraftwerk relied heavily on Moogs, ARPs and Sequential Circuits synths on those classic records. See:

[http://www.aktivitaet-fanzine.com/10_kk0.html](http://www.aktivitaet- fanzine.com/10_kk0.html)

The above link is a great resource for any Kraftwerk fans. Aktivitaet was a Kraftwerk fanzine published in the 90's.

<comment><USER4> They often designed the units in outline but other people implemented the ideas - like the Synthanorma sequencer, which was a product in its own right and eventually evolved into the Doepfer MAQ.

There's some mystery about who designed their robo-speech box [1], because Schneider (and colleagues) actually patented it.

[1] Not the vocoder, but the chip-speech system used on The Mix.

<comment><USER3> Synthorama was created by Matten and Wiechers of Bonn[1] Nobody in Kraftwerk was an electrical engineer. I am not sure how you "outline" a synthesizer unless you mean writing a schematic, something nobody in the band could do. I'm not trying to detract from their genius in any way but the idea that they created their own gear is largely folklore.

[1] [https://sdiy.info/wiki/Synthesizerstudio_Bonn](https://sdiy.info/wiki/Synthesizerstudio_Bonn)

<comment><USER5> You can outline a synthesizer in the same way people that couldn't program their way out of a wet paper bag outline software: by writing a specification of what it should be able to do. Implementing that specification is then the job of the electrical engineers.

If we're willing to give Steve Jobs credit for the iPhone I think we should be equally willing to give Schneider & company credit for their ideas that were instrumental - (heh) - in moving the synth field forward. The fact that many of their sounds were novel when first recorded is the strongest proof of their original contributions, if it has merely been off the shelf hardware created by others then this would not have been the case, you'd have heard those sounds from other artists before then.

<comment><USER3> Except they didn't write down a "specification." They simply asked Matten & Wiechers to come up with something that could automate their tape loops for Trans Europe Express. Dirk Matten & Hans-Joachim Wiechers both designed and created the Synthorma to handle that task. This is well-documented. So no it was not the same a writing a technical specification any more than I'm writing a "specification" when I call my local pizza place and ask for a large pepperoni.

<comment><USER4> KW specifically asked for (actually were persuaded to commission) two step sequencers - not "something to automate their tape loops."

It was the same process Tangerine Dream went through with Projekt Elektronik, PPG, Steinberg, and other collaborators. The band had an idea or some product feedback, and the designers implemented it.

KW's sequencers were unique in that they had rotary switches instead of pots for the sequence steps, which made them much easier to program.

<comment><USER3> >"KW specifically asked for (actually were persuaded to commission) two step sequencers - not "something to automate their tape loops.""

A tape loop is nothing more than a primitive form of sequencer. By definition they loop a sequence. They do the exact same thing. So not having to physically change the tapes and speeds on a tape machine by programming it into a sequencer is most definitely "automating" that process. The issue with analog tape machines is that they were not fun to deal with on the road or work with live.

And no they were not "two step" sequencers. What would be the point in that? You could do that with that a single finger - on/off. The Synthorama was a 16 step analogue sequencer and they had two of them which game them a 32 bit sequence to work with[1]

[1] [http://kraftwerkfaq.hu/equipment.html](http://kraftwerkfaq.hu/equipment.html)

<comment><USER6> Sorry, but this post gets a lot of things very wrong.

A sequencer is definitely not used for anything similar to "automating tape loops". For Kraftwerk they were used mainly in the studio to created drum sequences and melodies that were much more precise than those played by the band. The whole point of the sequencer was to replace Karl Bartos and Wolfgang Flür, and maybe some bass lines or melodies played by Ralf with a robotic sound.

Programming a sequence in an analog sequencer like a Synthanorma is _way_ harder than changing a tape. Have you ever programmed one? Back then you didn't have presets or pitch quantization, so for melodies for example you'd have to tune each step by ear. Drum loops were easier but not as easy as changing a tape.

Using them on the road was much harder than using tapes. In fact, even several years later, bands like Depeche Mode were still taking tapes to the road because sequencers were still clunky and difficult to program live. It was only after the advent of preset programming this started to change.

Before Autobahn, Kraftwerk indeed experimented with tape loops, but for very different kinds of sounds, more of the Stockhausen variety.

The things that led to this experiment with synthesizers and sequencers were the primitive rhythm machines of the time (they were already going in this direction with songs like Tanzmusik, but they wanted with custom drum sounds and custom drum rhythms, not the Samba and Cha-Cha-Cha of the Maestro) and their use of echo in "Ralf und Florian", where the echo was used to get a perfect repetition of something played (not a loop though, since it's not something that is "left alone" like a sequencer or a tape).

And by "two step sequencers" the parent poster clearly means "two units".

Also, it's called Synthanorma, not Synthorama.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Legend. I saw Kraftwerk live years ago and it was one of the most overwhelming performances I've ever seen in my life. Beneath the bouncy, poppy hooks there was a massive darkness — the pairing of visuals with the music really drove that home. (The only other live musical performance that I recall giving me a similar feeling was the band 'Godspeed You Black Emperor', who also made use of projected imagery in such a tightly-coupled fashion.)

One of my favorite Kraftwerk songs is probably "pocket calculator." [1]

1: [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eSBybJGZoCU](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eSBybJGZoCU)

<comment><USER8> I always enjoyed the part of the show where they'd pulled the curtains down, then when they were put up again, the entire group was replaced by robotic mannequins! Since their show was sync'd to the video in back of them, I'm pretty sure the music was all queued up too. They didn't really need to be up there at all!

I think only Aphex Twin pulled off such a stunt as well, where he walked to the stage, pressed a button to start the music, then walked off. But Kraftwerk would do it for an entire tour.

<comment><USER9> I've seen Kraftwerk live many times, and on two or three occasions they've played a bum note, or messed up the drumline, and had to stop and re-sync. So I can definitely confirm that they are playing "live", even for their most recent "3-D" tour.

(Though not, I assume, during the "Robots" sequence, which I assume is recorded. And I think that's actually the whole point of that sequence.)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> A true giant. It is difficult to overstate the importance of Kraftwerk, when it comes to modern music. They set out to create "Elektronische Volksmusik" and succeed spectacularly. I have been privileged to see Kraftwerk live three times, and those were some of the best concert experiences I have had.

<comment><USER11> I saw "them" live a few years ago on that 3D tour. By then it was just Ralf and the 3 other guys. At one point his equipment was getting messed up and sounded odd, you could see him getting visibly frustrated. It was interesting to see a human reaction like that from the robotic pioneers.

<comment><USER8> Ha - to be fair, it was, "Ralf, Florian, and two other guys" from the beginning - they made it into a quartet to mimic acts like the Beatles in a weird way. Of course, "the two other guys" deny that.

<comment><USER3> That's not actually true Klaus Dinger the drummer was a permanent member. There was even a brief period where it was Florian and Klaus Dinger in the band but Ralf had quit. And both Conny Plank their legendary producer and Ralf thought very highly of him. Klaus was known for pioneering a hypnotic minimalist beat known as "motorik." Klaus and Michael Rother left Kraftwerk to form Neu! another hugely influential German group.

<comment><USER8> Both Klaus and Michael left Kraftwerk well before Kraftwerk really found their sound (Autobahn, Man-Machine, Computer World, etc), and became that classic faux quartet I'm talking about - the two other members were hired, but weren't full members of the band. Ralf quit/rejoined well before this period as well.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Still one of my favourite clips on youtube: the very first video recording of Kraftwerk live, from 1970!

[https://youtu.be/hWUiLJnEYJI](https://youtu.be/hWUiLJnEYJI)

(Those audience reactions!)

<comment><USER13> Seems to be the same performance from which the Ruckzuck vid comes, and in that one a lot of people look stoned. Consider that krautrock is a direct descendant of 60s' psy-rock.

[https://youtube.com/watch?v=ABOMrTgPNZA](https://youtube.com/watch?v=ABOMrTgPNZA)

This connection is especially obvious when you see the previous incarnation—Organization—in color: [https://youtube.com/watch?v=_eB- sl6ZLpo](https://youtube.com/watch?v=_eB-sl6ZLpo)

(Though I gotta say that among early krautrock my favorite are Silver Apples, who were outstanding and far ahead of their time, but sank into complete obscurity after two albums.)

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Very sad day. Autobahn, Man Machine and Computer World were my constant background music when I was learning to program on a TRS-80 all those years back. "I program my home computer... beam myself into the future..."

Still programming, still find Kraftwerk inspiring. Thank you Florien and Rest in Peace. Your music changed my life.

</comment><comment><USER15> They predicted "computer world" in 1981 [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fa7WrCqsTC0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fa7WrCqsTC0)

"Crime, Travel, Communication, Entertainment"

<comment><USER16> And electronic dating in "Computer Love" ([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNBGWenPlGo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNBGWenPlGo)).

I always thought that song was about the "love" one feels using a computer. The relationship between a programmer and a machine. Perhaps I was just hearing what I wanted to hear though.

<comment><USER9> > I always thought that song was about the "love" one feels using a computer.

It's definitely about _both_. They've always enjoyed writing songs with multiple meanings. Before it was re-written for the live tour, the original lyrics of "Radio activity" are about both Radioactivity, and "Radio Activity".

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Interpol

Deutsche Bank

FBI

Scotland Yard

Business

Money

Numbers

People

Here is Ralf und Florian's patent for the electronic drum machine: [https://patents.google.com/patent/USD244717S/en](https://patents.google.com/patent/USD244717S/en)

These guys were the musical version of Jules Verne or HG Wells. Truly visionary.

<comment><USER18> Note this is a design patent rather than the more commonly known utility patent so it only protects the ornamental design of the drum machine.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> Now their music is kind of obvious but when you think about the scene back then it's pretty amazing what they did.

<comment><USER20> Only in the same way that Led Zeppelin sounds "obvious".

The context from which you're listening to it is partly defined by it.

(I really don't want to get in to a "who is better/more important/whatever" argument. If choosing Led Zeppelin as a comparison bothers you, please substitute for taste.)

<comment><USER19> I didn't mean the exact music as obvious but the style and tools they used. Same for electric guitars and the effects being used. Now totally normal but there was a time when people had to come up with that idea.

<comment><USER21> OK, not LZ but Jimi Hendrix maybe? Someone who defined new sound which is "obvious" and widespread now?

<comment><USER22> Personally I think you'd have to go back further to find an equivalent. Maybe Bo Diddily?

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bo_Diddley](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bo_Diddley)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> There's something very poignant about Kraftwerk's style, branding, and album art that I can't quite put my finger on. The way they put their own faces on pretty much everything, always well-dressed, always clean and "together". The lyrics about such simple things, travelling Europe by rail and seeing things, praising new technology... We need that optimism today. RIP.

</comment><comment> Al-Khwarizmi RIP. A titan of music.

Not only Kraftwerk are among my favorite artists, but my 8-month-old baby loves Autobahn.

<comment><USER24> My three year old nephew would ask to play the "robot man", as I referred to Kraftwerk for a while. Then would walk around swinging his arms like a robot to "We are the robots". I, having my "cool uncle" aspirations, was almost tearing up.

<comment><USER5> I made the mistake of introducing my kids to Kraftwerk early on and was treated to six months non-stop of 'we are the robots'. Still love the song :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> This is tragic.

Kraftwerk, in my opinion, invented modern music and will be the classical music of our times.

There have been moments of my life where I would listen morgen spaziergang for hours in loop, it was the only thing that could get me through the day without rage bursts.

It's my Linus cover.

Through them I discovered all the bands I love, from the most experimental electronic ones to David Bowie.

His contribution in taking "intelligent music" (sorry, can't find a better term) from something for the eiltè to something POP will be fully appreciated only when we'll be long gone.

Gute reise Meister

The power plant will be producing its magic energy forever

<comment><USER26> I love Kraftwerk and have done so for 40 years or more.

But this is not "tragic". People die. Florian was going to die. He wasn't young. He totally transformed the world of popular music. He had an awesome life, and now it is over. That's not tragic, it's just the nature of being alive.

<comment><USER25> Probably it has to do with me being a non-native English speaker, but I meant tragic as "something really sad" and "end of an era".

He died of cancer, a terrible way to go and even though he wasn't part of Kraftwerk since 2008, I think his solo works were more relevant than ever.

Like this one

[https://youtu.be/A5MtQMKa7ao](https://youtu.be/A5MtQMKa7ao)

We lost someone who was higly influential and spoke boldly, but humbly, in support of the light side.

Not a good day for humanity, in one of the worst periods in modern times.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> My very first splice job I did on a song was with Kraftwerk's Tour De France.

My friend and I wanted to extend the song so we could dance to it. So using a stereo system that had a cassette deck that could record from the turntable, I would cue the cassette to record, pause, then release the turntable, unpause the cassette, record the bit in the song we wanted to extend, and wash-rinse- repeat until we had the length we wanted.

This of course led to me down a long path of making beats, mixing tracks, and general electro-acoustic music shenanigans :)

Rest in peace Florian.

</comment><comment><USER28> I attended a live Kraftwerk show about 17 years ago, what amazed me was the depth of the lyrics in German vs the simplified English lyrics.

Kraftwerk is more political than the simplistic English lyrics would portray. It was then that I had new found appreciation for their craft. Praxis.

<comment><USER29> Interesting. Can you give an example? I've never bothered to translate the German lyrics.

<comment><USER5> Compare

Sie ist ein Model und sie sieht gut aus Ich nähm sie heut gerne mit zu mir nach Haus Sie wirkt so kühl, an sie kommt niemand ran Doch vor der Kamera da zeigt sie was sie kann

Sie trinkt in Nachtclubs immer Sekt (Korrekt!) Und hat hier alle Männer abgecheckt Im Scheinwerferlicht ihr junges Lächeln strahlt Sie sieht gut aus und Schönheit wird bezahlt

Sie stellt sich zur Schau für das Konsumprodukt Und wird von Millionen Augen angeguckt Ihr neues Titelbild ist einfach fabelhaft Ich muß sie wieder seh'n, ich weiß sie hat's geschafft

vs

She's a model and she's looking good I'd like to take her home that's understood She plays hard to get, she smiles from time to time It only takes a camera to change her mind

She's going out tonight but drinking just champagne And she has been checking nearly all the men She's playing her game and you can hear them say She is looking good, for beauty we will pay

She's posing for consumer products now and then For every camera she gives the best she can I saw her on the cover of a magazine Now, she's a big success, I want to meet her again

\--

The deeper layer of the lyrics is almost completely absent in the English version.

<comment><USER30> Heh, I remember learning some German just to understand their lyrics, some years ago.

Funniest one I remember is, in Computerwelt, Flensburg und das BKA / Haben unsere Daten da... where BKA is the federal German police and Flensburg is the city where they held some data about people (or still do, I don't know).

<comment><USER31> The agency collecting points for bad driving is located in Flensburg.

Having "Punkte in Flensburg" thus means one got caught driving too fast, under the influence or over a red light etc.

If you collect too many points you lose your drivers license and have to do a test and psychological exam to get it back.

This test usually called the "Idiotentest" because you drive like an idiot and you (deservedly) get treated like an idiot by the agency.

The whole affair is really annoying, expensive and takes quite some time.

If you fail the psychological exam (they find out you are an alcoholic for examle) you might never get the license back.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> My first purchased CD as a teenager, back in 1991, when music actually cost a lot of money: Kraftwerk - The Mix:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mix_(Kraftwerk_album)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mix_\(Kraftwerk_album\))

There is so much genius on this particular album. Critics weren't happy, but to me it was just perfection.

<comment><USER33> I also bought that album on CD as a teenager.

It had a massive impact on me in terms of opening my mind to possibilities of musical structure in `popular' music other than song form (verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, etc.).

Of course there is jazz form (head, solos on same form, head) and disco 12" form (the song, the dubbed out section, the reprise). And Kraftwerk's structures have a lot in common with the latter. But there is an incredible perfection and tightness (despite the extended durations) of form on all the tracks on that album.

<comment><USER32> > But there is an incredible perfection and tightness (despite the extended > durations) of form on all the tracks on that album.

Exactly. I think the reviewers just didn't get the whole concept.. just redoing old tracks, in a better way.

It's kind of the software way of life (v1, v2, etc - you keep iterating, by default).

It's also similar to how Mike Oldfield keeps working on variations of Tubular bells, and they do keep getting more and more interesting.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> One thing that currently blows me away: Kraftwerk sounds incredible using the new 16" Macbook Pro with its improved speakers. 'Am Heimcomputer sitz ich hier'...

</comment><comment><USER35> My favorite song by kraftwerk - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWsQgmq- fNs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWsQgmq-fNs)

<comment><USER36> you know that the percussive urgent beeping at beginning and end spells out "RADIOACTIVITY" and "ITS IN THE AIR" in Morse code?

<comment><USER9> When played live, they spell out "KRAFTWERK" instead.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> Electronic or not, very inspiring compositions as well. My favorite "acoustic" cover: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QH_VKWStK98](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QH_VKWStK98)

<comment><USER22> If it's your cup of tea Senior Coconut provide a range of "latin" Kraftwerk covers too. Here's Showroom Dummies[1]

[1] [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=buh8YnTwppM](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=buh8YnTwppM)

</comment></comment><comment><USER38> My first exposure to Kraftwerk as a young lad and it still resonates today. Even more so.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ybQWD6N6Zo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ybQWD6N6Zo)

</comment><comment><USER39> I think it's in the documentary Synth Britannia [1] were Kraftwerk explain themselves as; musician engineers.

As I get older I start to appreciate the early synth groups a lot more. Spend many hours listen to Kraftwerk over the decades.

RIP Florian.

[1] [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lVljmH0yUw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lVljmH0yUw)

</comment><comment><USER40> This is very sad. Kraftwerk were hugely influential in bringing technology into music. If you have not seen it yet, the Kraftwerk Pop Art documentary from BBC is a must watch

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaQQCW0wH0k](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaQQCW0wH0k)

</comment><comment><USER41> Aint anybody going to mention the video clip for "Musique non stop"?

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0lIlROWro8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0lIlROWro8)

This song got some commercial rotation in Spain in the day, and the videoclip was mesmerizing.

</comment><comment><USER42> Their latest work `tour de france` is phenomenal. Highly recommended for any electronic music lovers. Kraftwerk's music is transcendental in a way that lives through different time periods and yet still inspiring. R.I.P.

</comment><comment><USER8> Wonderful memories of touring around France while listening to the Tour de France Soundtracks - perhaps no better album to ride bikes to.

Great live show which was robotically exactly as I thought it would look like, complete with Sony laptops.

</comment><comment><USER43> One of the few modern artists that exemplify Zero to One. They weren't just genius, they were fearless. And the world is a better place as a result.

</comment><comment><USER44> I was going to see them live for the first time in Minneapolis before everything was cancelled. Very sad. But his legacy lives on.

<comment><USER24> I'm in the same boat. I tried buying tickets for European shows last year but didn't succeed. And now the show is coming to USA town, I get 4th row tickets and bam... Disappointment all around.

<comment><USER45> Florian left Kraftwerk years ago though, you weren't going to see him anyway :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> They made electronic music across multiple synths before MIDI! Must have been fun.

<comment><USER5> Ditto Jean Michel Jarre, Kitaro, Vangelis, Wendy Carlos, Johan Timman, Tomita, Suzanne Ciani, Laurie Anderson and many, many others.

<comment><USER46> Indeed! I did not say they were alone, did I? You forgot Keith Emerson and many others. Why?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER47> Also, Florian was an inspiration for David Bowie's "V-2 Schneider" from the "Heroes" album.

[https://youtu.be/fWkCMD7woV0](https://youtu.be/fWkCMD7woV0)

</comment><comment><USER8> Although they've at least said they've been working on music for decades, they've released so little in the last few. Perhaps we'll be able to listen to what they've been up to.

</comment><comment><USER48> kraftwerk was my favorite band for about a decade. i still love them, but other stuff made it to the top of my favorites list.

the band had an amazing run from 1974 to 1991. it sure is strange, though, that past that point, they pretty much stopped making new music.

the most charitable interpretation i can come up with is that they had created all the music that they needed to. or maybe, with the dawn of widely-available computers and much cheaper music synthesis, they could no longer stay five years ahead of the competition, and opted to bow out instead.

</comment><comment><USER49> Kraftwerk inspired so many of my favourite bands.

</comment><comment><USER50> tribute radio show :)

[https://www.nts.live/shows/the-do-you-breakfast- show/episode...](https://www.nts.live/shows/the-do-you-breakfast- show/episodes/the-do-you-breakfast-show-w-charlie-bones-7th-may-2020)

</comment><comment><USER46> i know he wasn't involved in the band anymore, but can they use his robot now during live performances?

</comment><comment><USER51> I was hoping against hope he'd get a black respect bar here but alas, no.

</comment><comment><USER52> This article somehow forgot to mention their influence in the most commercially successful German rock band of all times: Rammstein, which made a cover of their song Das Modell.

Edit: As pointed out the english-singing rock band Scorpions from Germany is far more popular.

<comment><USER53> Scorpions are far more successful by an order of magnitude.

<comment><USER52> Oh didn't know they were German, due singing in English I always assumed they were... English.

<comment><USER54> > didn't know they were German

Drummer Herman Rarebell's solo album "Herman Ze German" was a good clue :-)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER55> I enjoy electronic music. Never knew Florian Schneider was one of the influencers. RIP!

<comment><USER26> Influencer? INFLUENCER?

Go wash out your mouth with soap.

An influencer in this context is someone whose IG feed, had there been IG back in the day, would have told you to check the latest from this crazy German band from Dusseldorf.

Ralf & Florian weren't influencers, they were inventors, pioneers, ground breaking visionaries (even if they didn't know it themselves most of the time).

<comment><USER55> Sorry I didn't mean influencer from marketing context. I meant influencer - someone who influenced others to listen/make/practice music in a new way. Agree that "innovator" is the correct word instead.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER56> Anyone who is interested in how they arrange their live sound should watch "Kraftwerk: Wellenfeldsynthese in der Kunstsammlung NRW"[0]. The concept they are using is called "Wave field synthesis"[1]. I was lucky enough to attend 7 of those 8 concerts and it was just amazing since i'm following KW for many years now and attended a lot of their concerts.

What others got wrong in this thread is that they never actually built something themselves but they had the ideas and the people surrounding them that could make those ideas reality (those guys in Bonn). They were students of Karlheinz Stockhausen and you could absolutely hear that. If you listen to some of their first recordings[2], imagine this would be played on a synth instead of traditional instruments... and now you got KW like you know it.

If you are interested in some of the history about the scene in Düsseldorf you should def. watch "Keine Atempause – Düsseldorf, der Ratinger Hof und die neue Musik"[3]. Ratinger Hof was a mixture of artists, musicians and all kinds of crazy people. Funny (private) side note: When i was drinking wine with the dad of an old friend of mine, he told me that during his studies he was the driver for some of the now most famous artists (Joseph Beuys, Gerhard Richter, etc.) and musicians back then. This guy had some crazy stories and since i know my friend for 20 years it was mind blowing that his dad drove some of my favorite artists/musicians and he never talked about it. ahhh.. so much memories.. Ralf and Florian are/were very kind persons and it always was nice to talk to them. They modeled much of the sound as we know it today.

This whole area (Cologne/Bonn/Düsseldorf) is very rich when it comes to modern music. There once was a "Studio für elektronische Musik" (Studio for Electronic Music)[4] by the WDR (german radio/television). In the later years there were only "private" tours (thanks to Volker Müller - the sound engineer of Stockhausen!) and it saddens me that it's not open to the public anymore. They moved all of it outside of Cologne and now it's rotting in some basement. Real history that's just abandoned...[5]

[0] - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=np_bhcpE91A](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=np_bhcpE91A) [1] - [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_field_synthesis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_field_synthesis) [2] - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNoFHdlMrtI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNoFHdlMrtI) [3] - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lrdFOHRxuE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lrdFOHRxuE) [4] - [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studio_for_Electronic_Music_(W...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studio_for_Electronic_Music_\(WDR\)) [5] - [https://www.deutschlandfunkkultur.de/eingemottet-in- kellerra...](https://www.deutschlandfunkkultur.de/eingemottet-in- kellerraeumen-was-wird-aus-dem-wdr-studio.2177.de.html?dram:article_id=468464)</comment>


Ask HN: Do you play any sports or musical instruments? - <AUTHOR> How and where do you find sports or music partners to practice with? <comment><USER2> I play guitar, bass, and a little ukulele, and sometimes record original music.

It's a good question. One thing that helped was joining a church band. It got me playing in public every week, and my playing improved a lot.

Another thing was signing up for songwriting contests. I made some online friendships that led to recording together, with people I never actually met.

Due to schedule and family obligations I've always found it hard to coordinate with people in meatspace... but putting yourself in some kind of pre-existing situation can help with this.

<comment><AUTHOR> Which websites did you browse in order to find people that you recorded with?

<comment><USER2> The contests I joined, I found out about via the Jonathan Coulton forums a few years ago. One was "Masters of Song Fu," which I think is defunct now. The other was SpinTunes, [http://spintunes.blogspot.com/](http://spintunes.blogspot.com/)

I have not participated in Song Fight but know people who do -- see [http://www.songfight.org/](http://www.songfight.org/)</comment></comment></comment>


Are your sleep habits making you fat, nasty and dumb? - <AUTHOR> http://jonathanfields.com/blog/are-your-sleep-habits-making-you-fat-nasty-and-dumb/ <comment><USER2> Just to add my own story to the article.

I've always been a heavier guy, even with exercise and proper dieting. A couple years back I had issues with extremely high blood pressure spikes. It landed me in the hospital for a few days.

After my wife watched a medical show on Discovery Channel she came to me one day and says "Maybe you should get checked for sleep apnea?"

At that time on most weekends I could sleep for 13 hours straight and wake up still feeling exhausted.

Went and had a sleep study done and the results showed that I woke up over 150 times throughout the night and never entered REM sleep. With a CPAP machine I awoke only once.

The CPAP has change my life. Because I have more quality sleep I have more energy for exercising and have dropped another 20 lbs because of it. I work out 4-5 times a week. My quality of life has improved ten-fold.

So if you're a larger person that feels like the energy is drained from you, has problems getting the motivation to follow through on a physical fitness plan, and _especially_ if you're a loud snorer, you should get a sleep study done.

While wearing a CPAP to bed isn't going to get you laid, you'll quickly realize how much life you've been missing out on because of your poor sleep.

</comment><comment><USER3> It's an interesting article with some excellent information. However, I don't like the implication that your eating or exercising habits don't matter or aren't significant.

I find it annoying that often people highlight one aspect of a healthly lifestyle by attempting to claim the highlighting of another aspect is overblown.

<comment><USER4> Well said. My eating habits are making causing my sleep problems :-)

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> You know, I'd agree that sleep deprivation leads to all sorts of horrible things, but saying lack of sleep has caused American obesity is like saying the relentless decline in the number of Pirates has led to global warming. Correlation != Causation.

As the canonical example, Spaniards sleep on average 40 minutes less than other Europeans, with all sorts of detrimental effects (highest incidence of workplace accidents), but they are a fairly thin population.

Everyone is looking for a quick fix to getting fat. There isn't one. Eat less food and more healthy food, and do something that requires physical exertion.

<comment><USER6> _the relentless decline in the number of Pirates has led to global warming_

Damn ninjas! The way to stop global warming is to eradicate all of those pesky ninjas so the indigenous pirate populations can recover. I knew it all along.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> It could be correlation rather than causation (except for extreme case like the sleep apnea of aantix).</comment>


Curta calculator - hand-held, mechanical arithmetic - <AUTHOR> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curta_calculator <comment><USER2> I collect antique "technology" and have a couple of these along with Comptometers, a Golden Gem, and an Odhner. It really is amazing when you look at how these things work. I also used to collect late 1800's typewriters but they were taking up too much room.

What amazes me about antique tech is that the ergonomics and the engineering were inter-meshed. Today we can put a button and a chip anywhere so the design and engineering are quite separate as long as one accommodates the other. But if you look at for example a mechanical typewriter, the entire thing is engineered to function in an ergonomic sense as well. Not only does the lever have to work, it has to require not too much force to activate, strike the ribbon with enough force to transfer ink, return to position quickly, avoid the other levers in their paths of motion, while all being arranged in such a way as to fit our big meaty hands comfortably. It truly is a lost art form.

<comment><USER3> > I have a couple of these

Pics or... really, consider yourself a very wealthy man in more ways than one. Those things are amazing and to have more than one puts you in a pretty rare class.

Most people would pay really good money just to have a single one.

<comment><USER4> > Most people would pay really good money just to have a single one.

$500 - $1000, depending on condition.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I first read about the Curta in a Scientific American article by Cliff Stole (see scans here: [http://www.leighbureau.com/speakers/CStoll/essays/Calculator...](http://www.leighbureau.com/speakers/CStoll/essays/Calculator.pdf) )

I am awed and inspired by this story. It helps me understand why people think a work of art is worth more if there is a story behind it. I'd love one as art for my desk (if they weren't so expensive).

</comment><comment><USER6> Something like that would have come in handy for me a few minutes ago: I was calculating sqrt(2) to 10 places and sort(3) to 15 places, by hand on pencil and paper, and some of that got a little tedious.

I was doing this because I am relearning all the math I once knew but forgot. I'm currently finishing up relearning single-variable calculus, and I'm using Apostol's "Calculus" and doing all the exercises. One of the exercises at the end of the chapter on sequences and series of functions asks the student to derive an error estimate for the binomial series expansion of (1-x)^(-1/2), and then asks for the computation of sqrt(2) (using sqrt(2) = 7/5 (1-1/50)^(-1/2)) and sqrt(3) (using sqrt(3) = 1732/1000 (1-176/3000000)^(-1/2)) to 10 and 15 places, respectively.

Since pocket calculators would not have been available to the typical student in 1967, I decided it would be cheating to use a modern calculator or computer. I wanted to only use technology I might reasonable have had if I were a freshman in 1967. (Too bad it couldn't have been 1977, when I actually WAS a freshman taking calculus using that book...I had a nice calculator then).

<comment><USER7> > Since pocket calculators would not have been available to the typical > student in 1967

Is a slide rule allowed?

One of my eternal regrets is throwing out my set of slide rules in the 80s when I decided calculators were here to stay (mainly because I got to play with an HP-41C, which introduced me to programming and, well, here I am).

<comment><USER8> ( _Way_ off topic, but at least in the Netherlands, you can pick up really nice slides rules for cheap on the local Ebay equivalent. You may want to try that.)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1045002>

</comment><comment><USER9> Curtas get mentioned a lot because they occur in a couple of William Gibson books. But there are other nice bits of mechanical technology.

I used to work for a bus ticket machine company. The mechanical devices were amazing pieces. Really intricate and packed. I didn't work on those. I worked on "TIMtronic" (Ticket Issuing Machine electronic).

[http://www.ticketmachinewebsite.com/apps/photos/album?albumi...](http://www.ticketmachinewebsite.com/apps/photos/album?albumid=6071144)

But see also Samuel Morland's adder, a device from 1680.

</comment><comment><USER10> This isn't strictly relevant, but I'm curious about possible bias in that article. The line:

        His work on the pocket calculator stopped in 1938 when
        the Nazis forced him and his company to concentrate on
        manufacturing measuring instruments and distance gauges for the German army.

My gut says if this were an American or British company, the line would read "hired him and his company to make whatever else instead," but I'm willing to believe there could be a difference in the consequences to a business owner who refused to support the war effort. Anyone have any insights on this?

<comment><USER11> He was put in a concentration camp.

<comment><USER10> So he was. Goodness.</comment></comment></comment>


Testing Comment Posting from App - <AUTHOR> Please ignore this, will delete the post as soon as I'm done doing some tests <comment><AUTHOR> root comment</comment>


Mark Zuckerberg Calls for Government Regulation of Political Speech on Facebook - <AUTHOR> https://reason.com/blog/2019/04/05/mark-zuckerberg-calls-for-government-reg <comment><USER2> govt can't even regular what it's supposed to regulate, how's it going to do this... or is that the joke?

<comment><USER3> That's it. If the government regulated Facebook, the rest of the world would have access to freedom of speech finally. The us govt cannot regulate speech.</comment></comment>


This is Your Idea of a Good Retail Experience? - <AUTHOR> http://zerodistraction.com/blog/2011/12/7/this-is-your-idea-of-a-good-retail-experience.html

<comment><USER2> I'm baffled by the idea that someone actually thinks they go into a store with razor-thin margins and get the same experience they get from one known for incredibly high ones.

<comment><USER3> Althouh the same rant COULD apply to other brands with high margins but sub- par retail experience...

<comment><USER2> You're right, of course. I don't know of any such stores (Bang & Olufsen, maybe?), but yeah.

And honestly, I don't know the margin at Apple stores either, but I'm assuming they're higher than the big box stores.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Didn't Best Buy fire their senior people to save money couple years ago?

</comment><comment><USER5> So why does Android have the largest market share?

[http://static5.businessinsider.com/image/4ec273e4ecad0416520...](http://static5.businessinsider.com/image/4ec273e4ecad04165200000b/gartner- smartphone-market-share-q3.jpg)

This would suggest retail doesn't make two shits of a difference if your product doesn't cost over ~$150. Wouldn't it?

</comment><comment><USER6> There are lots of other products in Best Buy you can't try as well. I think the authors beef should be with Best Buy, not the OS which resides on the phone.

Edit: I guess he is talking about Best Buy... I just don't see how Best Buy can have everything they sell as a product demo. I don't frequent Apple stores, but I'm guessing I can count on 2 hands the amount of hardware products they sell in the stores.

<comment><AUTHOR> My problem is not with Android. I was merely using Android phones as an example of how bad Best Buy was showcasing their smartphone lineup. If they had done the same with iPhone demo units, I would have lambasted them just the same.</comment></comment>


Zerigo terminates annual plans mid-way to jack rates 19x - <AUTHOR>

aka "How NOT to raise your prices on prepaid plans"
The last few years have been rough for Zerigo customers, with several well-publicized DNS outages.
As a reward for hanging in there, Zerigo sent an email this morning they will discontinued their DNS Essentials plan ($39/YEAR) and are replacing it January 31 2014 with a $63/MONTH plan. (pricing shown for 50 domains)...a 19-fold increase, one month's notice.
And no, they just confirmed, they will NOT wait until your current annual plan expires even though it is pre-paid (September 2014 in my case).
They will jack up the rate 19-fold, beginning Jan 31, applying a prorated credit, rather than letting current annual plans run their course.
To my mind, the rate increase might be reasonable if they really did upgrade their infrastructure to prevent further outages.
What is completely unacceptable IMO is a policy to terminate existing pre-paid plans mid-way rather than grandfather existing customers through the remaining months of their term. <comment><USER2> I JUST upgraded from free to DNS Essentials a couple days ago. I've notified Zerigo billing that I consider the change a cancellation of my service agreement "without a determination of misuse" as defined by their own terms of service, and have requested a full refund back to my card on file. We'll see how that goes.

So where is everybody moving? Any reasonably priced DNS providers that don't suck?

<comment><USER3> We use DynDNS and couldn't be happier. We were tossing up between using then and Zerigo, glad we went with Dyn now!

<comment><AUTHOR> Only DynDns top-tier products allow zone file importing (one of the features that sold us on Zerigo in the first place since we have 50 domains). And those packages start at $300/mo AND have a 1 year non-refundable contract.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Got the email as well. I would be looking at a new price of $456/yr, up from my current $39/yr. Needless to say that is totally unacceptable.

Thing is I wouldn't even mind paying a little bit more, I know $39/yr is pretty cheap. $60/yr would be fine, or even more maybe. But $456/yr is not fine at all and it baffles me why they would even attempt this. Did it occur to no-one to ask, hm, do you think our customers will mind us jacking the price 10-fold or higher?

Looking into a switch to dnsmadeeasy. Even if they reverse course, I'll probably change now, since Zerigo management has obviously gone mad and I no longer trust them to run a service I rely on.

</comment><comment><USER5> Is there a reason not to use the DNS provided free by reliable web hosts (Rackspace, Softlayer, Linode, etc)? Or is everyone in this discussion hosting with Amazon and the like that doesn't provide that?

<comment><AUTHOR> We found Godaddy's free dns service was causing a noticeable number of random "website not found" errors. While it might have been mitigated by adding a secondary dns provider we decided to find a more robust primary dns solution plus a secondary dns provider.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> They charged me $39 for annual service 4 days ago. Then today they mailed me to tell me that the 'new' rate was $756/year and I would have to pay the extra or cancel the service.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Looking hard at dnsmadeeasy... Anyone using them as primary DNS? Basic specs look good: $60/YR for 25 domains ... supports zone imports... uptime guarantee.

</comment><comment><USER7> easyDNS.

Yes, I'm biased, but still. We're less money, anycast deployed (Zerigo until now is/was not), zonefile importer, REST API, full integration to Amazon Route 53 via easyRoute53, etc etc.

Prices starting at $149/year for 10 domains.

Add failover / host monitoring: $299/year, 10 domains

<comment><AUTHOR> I looked at easyDNS couple of years ago, at that time did not allow reverse lookups for PTR records, but it looks like they do now. Worth a look for sure, thanks.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Yep. Time to do something different.

I just did this last year when another DNS provider pulled the same shit.

<comment><AUTHOR> Sad thing is, I'd actually stick with them if they were grandfathering pre- paid plans. Not doing so is mind-blowingly arrogant.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Did they offer a refund, or just credit?

<comment><AUTHOR> The note I got from support says: "A pro-rated credit will be applied for any unused portion of your existing plan towards the new service."

That said, since they are choosing to break a pre-paid annual agreement I presume one can demand and get a pro-rated refund.

<comment><AUTHOR> got a new note from zerigo support saying they will refund after cancel: "If you are on an annual or quarterly plan and do not wish to continue with Zerigo service, you are eligible for a pro-rated refund after you cancel your service."</comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: What data do alternative blockchains store? - <AUTHOR> Honest question. When someone says a blockchain can be used for anything OTHER than financial transactions, for example - supply chain, health records, etc -  what is the actual underlying data that is being stored on the blockchain?
When it comes to a quasi-banking or quasi-wallet system, I find it easy to visualize that the blockchain holds accounts with balances, and there are transactions which move money between accounts. Blockchain's decentralization and write-only properties help because no single entity can make your money disappear, and no entity can rollback a transaction.
What is going on with other use-cases of blockchain? What does a supply-chain system actually store on the blockchain? The SKU list? The price of each SKU? The stock level of each SKU in each warehouse? What?
Further, how do the unique properties of a blockchain make it better than a centralised (or federated DB) for a SPECIFIC non-financial use-case (would appreciate actual details here)? <comment><USER2> Since a blockchain can only be used to verify activity on itself, blockchains are poor replacements for anything but markets. Anything being done that has access to an environment mutually trusted by all parties has no need of a blockchain - you just access a database in that environment.

Moreover, there's no reason to run a blockchain on a trusted party - i.e. 'corporate' blockchains - for the same reason: since you already have to trust whoever is maintaining it, it can't verify anything new for you.

The only reason these things exist is the large amounts of capital available to anyone who can shoehorn a blockchain into their business model.

</comment><comment><USER3> Blockchain has to be seen as a protocol is multiple layers. The transactions and ownership related data on stored on layer 0 or on chain. Anything to do with personal data or user data is stored on layer 1. Projects like Blockstack follows similar architecture. There are DApps available with non financial use-case.

</comment><comment><USER4> If we separate out the usefulness or profitability of using blockchains to store non financial data,

Then

The data type doesnt matter. Taking supply chains ( or asset tracking im general ) Transactions could be of the form

From entity , To entity and Asset Descriptor - > mapped to blockchain ID

From to asset timestamp hash One could have functions like Check_current_ownership() Check_transferability()

</comment><comment><USER4> Ofcourse its difficult to keep onchain data and offchain data consistent. So its best to have an adapter for real world data

<comment><USER2> In other words, the blockchain is adding no value, at significant cost.</comment></comment>


Think eating fish / sushi is a healthy choice? Think again! [short documentary] - <AUTHOR> http://vimeo.com/9734929

<comment><USER2> Since it's a video, could somebody post a short summary?</comment>


The real value of "just" those 20 minutes - <AUTHOR> https://www.sophiaellis.co/blog/2017/10/18/reassessing-the-value-of-time-what-20-minutes-really-is <comment><USER2> In a way, you could probably determine a buffer time based on this calculation. Every single time there is a task switch, you should add on buffer of 23 minutes. Probably would make you do less tasks

</comment><comment><USER3> time is an illusion

<comment><USER4> time is a flat circle, marty</comment></comment>


Timestamps and Time Zones in PostgreSQL (2016) - <AUTHOR> https://phili.pe/posts/timestamps-and-time-zones-in-postgresql/ <comment><USER2> I'd be happy with everyone being extremely clear about the two kinds of time: Wallclock-time and duration-time.

What's the difference? Duration-time does not have leap-seconds.

I'll say it again: Duration-time does not have leap-seconds.

Once more: Duration-time does not have leap-seconds.

For duration-time without leap-seconds, give me TAI:

> International Atomic Time (TAI) is a statistical atomic time scale based on > a large number of clocks operating at standards laboratories around the > world that is maintained by the Bureau International des Poids et Mesures; > its unit interval is exactly one SI second at sea level. The origin of TAI > is such that UT1-TAI is approximately 0 (zero) on January 1, 1958. TAI is > not adjusted for leap seconds. It is recommended by the BIPM that systems > which cannot handle leapseconds use TAI instead.

[https://tycho.usno.navy.mil/leapsec.html](https://tycho.usno.navy.mil/leapsec.html)

Document that it is TAI.

Include in the documentation that TAI does not include leap-seconds.

Thank you.

<comment><USER3> Why do you call it "duration-time"? It seems obvious that for an event that lasted 5.43s for example, (a "duration", better wording) that it's not counted with leap-seconds.

<comment><USER2> > Why do you call it "duration-time"?

Because it has units of time (seconds, often) and it's done using time-stamps, as in begin-time and end-time.

> It seems obvious that for an event that lasted 5.43s for example, (a > "duration", better wording) that it's not counted with leap-seconds.

Obvious until you try to get someone to understand why their time-stamps can't be UTC if they're going to be used for duration-time instead of wallclock- time.

Obvious until you try to get a library or language implementer to understand the UTC isn't Universal.

<comment><USER3> >Because it has units of time (seconds, often) and it's done using time- stamps, as in begin-time and end-time.

If you are recording a duration you have another unit. If you use begin-time and end-time you are calculating a duration, which is different of course.

If you calculate durations, then you might consider leap seconds, if they are important for your measurement. If not, then you just ignore them. I don't see a problem here.

Besides, leap-seconds are known, so removing them from a calculated duration is not a problem.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I sometimes wish there was an actual "TIMESTAMP WITH TIME ZONE" type that stored the input timestamp as well. Basically, a version that didn't canonicalize the input by converting to UTC. This way, I can easily show timestamps to the user in the time zone they used to input them.

<comment><USER5> I frequently wish that datetime libraries and APIs frozen in time and awkward design were given a second pass and redone in the style of Java 8 [1], which is a triumph of clarity after many years of lessons learned. Even putting out a new RFC would help move things along, because I've long felt that RFC 3339 is underspecified [2].

If datetime libraries were more thoroughly patterned after that of Java 8, there would be less need for the 'misconceptions programmers believe about datetimes' posts, and less need for the 'just use UTC' or 'maybe always-UTC isn't the right advice' posts, because the data-types are thoroughly reflective of their intended use, and their misuse is harder than in other APIs.

[1] [https://docs.oracle.com/javase/8/docs/api/java/time/package-...](https://docs.oracle.com/javase/8/docs/api/java/time/package- summary.html) [2] [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12364805](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12364805)

<comment><USER6> Am i right in thinking that in Java 8 terms:

SQL timestamp == java.time.LocalDateTime

SQL timestampz == java.time.Instant, but converted into java.time.OffsetDateTime on read

?

That is, neither of them actually stores a timezone. But timezone is a date and time that needs to be interpreted in the context of some separately- supplied timezone, whereas timezonetz is an actual instant in time?

IME, it's rare to need LocalDateTime. I work in finance. I often need LocalTime, to specify things like "the exchange opens at 07:30 every day", where the timezone is implicitly that of the exchange, and if the exchange moved (lol Brexit), its timezone might change even if its opening time didn't. I also often need LocalDate, mostly when storing or retrieving data in archives organised by date, because we tend to use the local date for that, so that all the data for one session of an exchange, from open to close, is on one date, wherever in the world it is [1]. But i very rarely need LocalDateTime. Perhaps if i worked in calendaring instead, i would use it all the time.

It's a shame that SQL doesn't have a ZonedDateTime or OffsetDateTime, but as others have pointed out, you can just store a timestamp along with a timezone or offset.

[1] Actually, it's worse than this, in that we use the trade date, which is sometimes not the same as the local date - for example, on the Chicago Mercantile Exchange, the market for the E-mini S&P 500 future opens at 17:00 and closes at 16:00 the next day [2]. But that entire session is considered to have a trade date of the calendar date it closes on. In the olden days, the market would open at 07:00 and close at 16:00 (so you had an hour before the banks closed to settle any cash movements, or possibly because traders had very big lunches in those days). Trade date was calendar date. But then the 21st century came along, and they decided to open all day. But because there was so much crucial stuff that happened at the close of trading, they did it by moving the open back to the previous evening, rather than moving the close forward.

[2] [https://www.cmegroup.com/trading- hours.html#equityIndex](https://www.cmegroup.com/trading- hours.html#equityIndex)

<comment><USER5> PostgreSQL 'TIMESTAMP', for nonextreme values, is the same idea as java.time.Instant -- an absolute point on the timeline stored internally as a number from some epoch -- but whose default textual interface accepts and emits java.time.LocalDateTime values that correspond, but aren't tagged with the UTC zone.

When you insert into a 'TIMESTAMP', it's as if it did input LocalDateTime(x).atZone(UTC).toInstant(), and saved that; and when you read it, it's as if it does storedInstant.atZone(UTC).toLocalDateTime().

A 'TIMESTAMPTZ' is stored the same way, but on string output is converted to the session timezone, and an underspecified input is enriched with the session timezone.

When you insert into a 'TIMESTAMPTZ' it'd take the input OffsetDateTime or ZonedDateTime, or enrich the input with the session zone until one were obtained, call .toInstant(), and save it. On read, it'd do storedInstant.atZone(sessionZone) to obtain a ZonedDateTime, and its default output format only includes the offset.

LocalDateTime is useful for calendaring, and as an intermediate step when joining a LocalDate and a LocalTime and working towards a Zoned or Instant.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I think I slightly disagree about the choice of using timestamptz over timestamp. The main reason being that when I feed data in to the database I always want that same data back out. From the description I now realize that if I backed up and restored, or otherwise ran the same database with a different configuration the database might "try to be smart" and return a modified value.

I guess to store a timestamp and a timezone I should use a timestamp a second column with the timezone value (maybe a string, but I'd like a clean way of telling the database I want an 'enum' but to dynamically just add new values as it sees them; yes for PostgreSQL I'd do that with a secondary lookup table and an insert/update trigger).

<comment><USER8> It would return an equivalent value, which is the important thing. You can specify `AT TIME ZONE 'UTC'` (or whichever timezone) when consuming it to get a consistent look. On the other hand, it's not clear from just the value what point in time a `timestamp without time zone` represents. That's why I agree that it should be used when you _don't_ want to represent a point in time.

<comment><USER9> Moreover, `AT TIME ZONE` only works correctly when used following the semantics described in the article. It will do the opposite of what you think it should if you use `timestamp without time zone` to represent an absolute time, or vice-versa.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I completely disagree with this advice:

> However, when you come across timestamp, you can't possibly know in what > time zone the timestamp is just by looking at it.

yes I do, it's in UTC, because I assume the application is written to correctly handle datetimes.

> It is merely a wall time. Maybe it's UTC,

no, it's UTC.

> or maybe the developer stored it in local time.

right, maybe the application was not programmed correctly, that is always a possibility. But if they are using the timestamp with timezone datatype, it is 100% more likely they have made mistakes in doing so because it is much more confusing to have to fight against PostgreSQL's assumptions and implicit conversions, as the complexity of its behaviors and decisions using this datatype are described in this article. Does the application come up with the wrong answer if the server it runs on, or the webserver container, is mistakenly set to Eastern Timezone rather than UTC? Is the application ensuring that it knows the correct timezone of timestamps _as they enter the application_ , and if so, why isn't it converting to UTC _at that moment_? Is the application otherwise receiving datetimes of arbitrary timezone, letting them move around business and display logic in their raw form, and waiting until they enter _the database_ to be correctly normalized? that's too late.

A correctly coded application does _explicit_ normalization of datetime values the moment they enter the boundaries of the application, just like it would also convert encoded bytes into a unicode-aware strings up front, so that within the application there is no ambiguity, both when persisting and when handling.

<comment><USER11> Why is this correct take being downvoted?

Add consistency to your codebase by saving all timestamps in UTC.

Edited: Storage size is the same.

<comment><USER12> There's no difference in storage between timestamp and timestamptz in PostgreSQL. Both are 8 bytes.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> As many other comments state, the most practical advice is to just use _' timestamp'_ and ensure that all applications always use UTC. The only exception is user-facing appointments that are scheduled in that user's timezone which can't be converted to UTC safely. In this case, store the timezone in a separate column specifically for those rows/entities that need it.

In neither case is _timezonetz_ useful or necessary, and will actually end up causing more bugs by converting timezones to/from the database instead of just returning the value and letting your application deal with it.

<comment><USER14> I think you misunderstood how timestamps work in PostgreSQL. Timestamptz is always saved as UTC. Only in exceptional cases where you need to store something in local time, such as a scheduled event that is not in UTC, you should use the timestamp WITHOUT TZ. This is also what well-known PostgreSQL developers recommend: [https://tapoueh.org/blog/2018/04/postgresql-data-types- date-...](https://tapoueh.org/blog/2018/04/postgresql-data-types-date- timestamp-and-time-zones/)

<comment><USER13> It's not about the storage of the value, it's the fact that PG will potentially change the value you provide compared to what's stored when using 'timestamptz'. If you use UTC _and_ send it as UTC _and_ request it as UTC then everything is fine but there are plenty of edge cases when using ORMs, handwritten SQL, different server timezones, or type conversions that can lead to issues on the way in and out of the database.

Having the database store anything other than what you provide is always a source of bugs.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> What I like about this article is that it does something subtle yet profound: it uses repetition to solidify a concept to the reader. For example the referencing of wall time in the first few paragraphs lowers the load for the reader to refer back to previous paragraphs to reconnect with a newly introduced concept (walltime in this context was new to me as of reading this article). I think this is a huge win as it doesn't break the reading timeline and it's a subtle yet huge showing of attention to detail. Much kudos to the author.

<comment><USER16> Thanks, much appreciated.

At least for me, writing an article like that takes time and lots of thought (plus forces you to grok the stuff deeply). I wish I could write more often (or at least, carve out the time and energy for it), haven't written much since.

<comment><USER17> And thank you so much for the chart[0] mapping absolute to wall time. I always have a hard time visualizing DST changes ( usually I am mentally "sliding" bars of time against each other and get confused), but that one just gave me a _click_.

[0] [https://phili.pe/posts/timestamps-and-time-zones-in- postgres...](https://phili.pe/posts/timestamps-and-time-zones-in- postgresql/map.svg)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> That is a phenomenal article about timezones in general that apply to any database, as well as a great explanation of features specific to postgres.

It is interesting that a timestamp without timezone is internally represented a timestamptz at UTC.

Postgres is also has some great functionality converting between timezones:

[https://www.postgresql.org/docs/11/functions- datetime.html#F...](https://www.postgresql.org/docs/11/functions- datetime.html#FUNCTIONS-DATETIME-ZONECONVERT)

</comment><comment><USER19> Doesn't this mean that the default Rails treatment of time stamps (created and updated at) in Postgres is wrong? Any plans to change that?

</comment><comment><USER20> I have a question, that was partially addressed in some comments in the last Timezone in Databases article earlier in the week -

What do people think about using Unix time in databases?

<comment><USER21> It depends on your use-case. You should also be aware of the Year 2038 problem [0].

What are you trying to achieve?

[0] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_2038_problem](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_2038_problem)

<comment><USER20> Largely timestamping. Accuracy to a high level (leap seconds) is irrelevant. Aware of 2038 problem, assume we will have some fun along the way to there along with the rest of the unix world!

<comment><USER21> Storing Unix timestamps in a 64-bit signed integer field would probably be fine in that situation. The only downsides that come to mind are that you'd have to manually convert the number to an actual date when using it, and that you'd lose easy access to date-related functionality in the database.

<comment><USER22> But also totally pointless since PostgreSQL's timestamptz type also uses 64 bits.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> Thanks for this. Was very helpful!

</comment><comment><USER24> What timestamp types are available in MySQL, SQL Server, and Oracle?

<comment><USER25> SQL Server has datetimeoffset, which computes in UTC but also stores the timezone.

<comment> crooked-v Does it store the time zone, or does it store the offset?

<comment><AUTHOR> AFAIK, it stores the offset

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> > A Valid Use Case For timestamp without time zone

This should be "A Valid Use Case For timestamp _with_ time zone".

This article gets it all wrong. The only time it's acceptable to store time with time zone is DATES that do not have a TIME component.

<comment><USER27> I'm probably just misunderstanding, but a calendar like Google Calendar definitely needs to store time with a time zone (i.e. dates with a time component). This allows to keep a scheduled event at 9 AM, even if the time zone offset is redefined (due to a political event).

<comment><USER28> Or some of the schedulees of the events move across time zones. There're absolutely other use cases.</comment></comment></comment>


Fast, concise and reliable code? Try Perl - <AUTHOR> http://onionstand.blogspot.com/2009/06/fast-concise-and-reliable-code-try-perl.html

<comment><USER2> Guys don't forget perl stands for Practical Extraction and Report Language, and that is what it still beats all other languages at.

For any other use, Perl is great in the hands of a mature developer, and disastrous in the hands of a novice.

It's really important to set yourself a rigid coding style and rules in perl, otherwise it's all over the shop.</comment>


Hacking+Startup Events Feed in Boston/Cambridge - <AUTHOR> http://www.thesponty.com/profile/251336/Hacking_in_Boston

<comment><USER2> Also check out the Betahouse recommends calendar: [http://www.google.com/calendar/hosted/betahouse.org/htmlembe...](http://www.google.com/calendar/hosted/betahouse.org/htmlembed?src=betahouse.org_upa7a0u9ckmmdc4dihar8v93c4%40group.calendar.google.com&ctz=America/New_York&mode=AGENDA)

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> You can also grab the RSS feed here: [http://www.thesponty.com/profile.rss/251336/Hacking_in_Bosto...](http://www.thesponty.com/profile.rss/251336/Hacking_in_Boston)

We'll be updating this very regularly.</comment>


IPad '4G' claims face scrutiny from UK regulator - <AUTHOR> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-17899912

<comment><USER2> The iPhone 3G should never have been called that and Apple should _not_ be touting the latest iterations of the devices as "4G".

They are meaningless terms in so many real world situations.

I can have a xG phone near a compatible tower and the right chip set and it might get advertised speeds, or the network might be congested.

I can have a xG phone in the desert and get nothing.

I can have a xG phone with the wrong chip set for where I am.

I can have a xG phone but the carrier roaming charges are astronomical because I'm overseas.

It's a difficult problem (obviously), but I want an always connected everywhere phone with transparent and reasonable (!=cheap) pricing for data.

I don't want fast mobile if I stand on one foot near the right mobile tower in the right country. I want reliable connectivity.

Imagine if you were sold a 60 watt lightbulb for your home and it flickered, was dim or completely dark. It's not the bulb, it's the electrical supply you say? Well the bulb is being sold with the electrical supply in nearly all cases. Phone contracts are the bulb and electrical supply rolled into one.

</comment><comment><USER3> Another unfortunate example of a US company forgetting that there people outside their own borders with different constraints and requirements.

I'd rather Apple just gave a boat load of money to UK mobile networks to help them upgrade to 4G :)

<comment><USER4> Unfortunately money isn't the thing holding back UK 4G adoption. You can read more about the delays here: <http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-17853286>

But even then because no two countries will be using the same spectrum my understanding is that UK 4G will be incompatible with US 4G.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> Apple recently got in trouble in Australia over the same issue[1]. The final outcome of that case is still pending - at least insofar as what Apple is going to have to do about it.

[1] [http://www.smh.com.au/business/apple-and-accc-ipad- mediation...](http://www.smh.com.au/business/apple-and-accc-ipad-mediation- fails-20120416-1x33y.html)

<comment><USER6> Customers who bought the 4G iPad before the 28th March had until the 25th of April to approach Apple for a refund.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Also, isn't the "4G" it has on AT&T in the US not really 4G though? I mean the faster 3G, not LTE of course.

<comment><USER8> There's no one standard definition of "4G". A myriad of differing technologies all claim to be 4G, which is why it's just about impossible for a vendor to produce a device compatible with every one worldwide. If "4G" had a solid definition, and everybody was using it, but iPad didn't support it, then it would be understandable.

<comment><USER9> While I agree theres no standard definition, theres a general agreement between all parties that LTE is "4G" and HSDPA+ is "3G" (or "3.5G" if you will).

To argue the semantics of what "3G" and "4G" really is only confuses customers even more - and thats exactly what Australia and the UK are trying to prevent.

<comment><USER10> Exactly. By stating that something is 4G compliant, when there is no real defined way of easily defining the term, then it's pretty misleading!</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Amazon Spends Another $1M in Heated Seattle Elections - <AUTHOR> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-10-15/amazon-spends-another-1-milliion-in-heated-seattle-elections <comment><USER2> I wish tech companies would step up to the plate in San Francisco because we really need housing.</comment>


SpaceX Cut Out of Air Force Contracts for New Rockets - <AUTHOR> https://www.engineering.com/AdvancedManufacturing/ArticleID/17709/SpaceX-Cut-Out-of-Air-Force-Contracts-for-New-Rockets.aspx <comment><USER2> Title is a little misleading. SpaceX wasn't left out of the agreement. The Air Force is providing funding to Blue Origin, Northrop Grumman and ULA to develop the next generation of rockets and motors for each of these companies. SpaceX is already years ahead in the development phase. The Air Force is just trying to get everyone else up to speed.

</comment><comment><USER3> > The company that isn't picked will have its funding terminated and have to > return the money it spent to the government.

Wow! I've never heard of such terms before with a govt contract.</comment>


Obama said people want secure mobile communications, but NSA undermined that - <AUTHOR> http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2015/02/20/obama-said-everyone-wants-secure-mobile-communications-but-the-nsa-worked-to-undermine-that/ <comment><AUTHOR> This is almost a continuation of the pattern from 2013 in which senior officials made claims that were quickly and devastatingly revealed to be false or misleading in comparison to what NSA and its partners were actually doing in practice. It's not an exact continuation of the pattern, since we "just" learned that NSA and GCHQ undermined what Obama claimed were shared goals on a massive scale.

Maybe we were all supposed to infer from Obama's concerns about "a bunch of people compromising that process" that he _really_ meant encryption was a NOBUS (No One But Us) issue for the administration. Maybe we were supposed to know that when Obama said "there's no scenario in which we don't want really strong encryption" that he was talking about "really strong encryption _our partners can 't compromise and share with us_."

I would have expected the administration to become much more cautious about making falsifiable or undermine-able statements after these leaks started.

</comment><comment><USER2> _But a new report published by the Intercept alleges that British and American spies actively sought to undermine the security features that protect mobile networks around the world._

What were the dates of the security compromises relating to SIM cards?

</comment><comment><USER3> _It 's worth noting that the Intercept's report suggests some of the practices of the company, Gemalto, may have also put the encryption keys at added risk in the first place_

So, if you increment a counter in a public URL, you're a felon; if we snoop on all private communications and find some opsec lapses, that shows they were asking for it.

</comment><comment><USER4> We begin therefore where they are determined not to end, with the question whether any form of democratic self-government, anywhere, is consistent with the kind of massive, pervasive, surveillance into which the Unites States government has led not only us but the world.

This should not actually be a complicated inquiry.

[http://snowdenandthefuture.info/events.html](http://snowdenandthefuture.info/events.html)

Surveillance is not an end toward totalitarianism, it is totalitarianism itself.

[http://www.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/europe-24385999](http://www.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/europe-24385999)

</comment><comment><USER5> Obama always sounds like the good guy. He dislikes torture, war, the NSA, drones... But doesn't he have at least some power to change these things?

<comment><USER6> Not to bag on any one politician nor start a rant....

but either he doesn't really have the real power, (which is a problem), or he says he wants to but really doesn't want to (which is also a problem), or wants to but can't because of existing realities and so lies to everyone rather than leveling about the situation (maybe the biggest problem)...

Either way, people are not being given enough information to vote wisely or else plain not being represented. This isn't how it's supposed to be.

<comment><USER5> > Either way, people are not being given enough information to vote wisely or > else plain not being represented

An american friend of mine showed me how he was asked to vote on local issues (such as medical cannabis, water fluoridation, treaties with indians(!) and so on...) by way of referendum. A lot of references were given so that voters could make an informed choice.

This contrasts with extremely important questions such as waging wars to other nations where voters barely have a saying. Furthermore, those issues are addressed in the most naive ways in political debates ("we need to increase our military spending in order to catch the bad guys out there, and to support our troops").

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I beg to differ. Those who undermined that are the people who decided to centralize keys somewhere. That is, to build a system with centralized control.</comment>


Using cost-per-click data to debunk advert design myths - <AUTHOR> http://www.sketchdeck.com/blog/we-tested-48-facebook-ads-to-bust-6-marketing-myths/ <comment><USER2> > It is important to note that we only measured who clicked through our ads. > That means the irrelevant images could have lower conversion rates on the > site. The people who ended up on the SketchDeck site may not need or care > about design.

I was really looking forward to this until I saw they were using CPC as their barometer. Bad traffic at $0.87 / click is far costlier than good traffic at multiples of that.

<comment><USER3> Exactly.

The article is an exercise in optimizing for the wrong metric.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> So they discovered that people click slightly more on unbranded images of happy women with no relevance to a product. Good work guys!

But the total difference from best to worst was < 5%. If you're doing a vast ad campaign then sure that totals up. But what's the opportunity cost of the brand awareness? Spending ~5% more per click to use a relevant, branded, image seems like a good deal.

I think it's great that they published this, but it doesn't really bear out the conclusion. Of course, given the nature of the author the conclusion was always going to be: "design is really really important and you should totally spend more money on it".

</comment><comment><USER5> Focusing solely on CPC is a mistake. Conversions are far more important IMO.

As an example for using irrelevant images - sure cute cat pics are going to get clicked way more resulting in a lower CPC but those are not going to convert.

Same thing with the text on images. Without text on the image that explains what it is about, users might click more out of curiosity. Those are not going to convert well though.

I would much rather have a lower CPL or lower cost per conversion over a lower CPC.

To sum it up, the ending summary of "To have a successful Facebook ad:" should really be "Focus on what drives in the lowest cost per conversion and highest ROI"

</comment><comment><USER6> Their methodology is bad. The most effective CPCs are the ones that do not look like ads, therefore, are not representing accurately what a person is clicking on. A better approach would be to compare the different designs that LOOK LIKE ADS, and test which one is most effective.

>The small logo set also included the most popular ad from this entire experiment. Which is one of my favorite pieces of stock photography and can be seen below...

The above statement confirms that choice in creative can have a tremendous impact. Each of their "myths" can be adjusted using effective creative.

</comment><comment><USER7> I think most of the commenters are missing the point of the tests.

Having sat through a few meetings about "the best way to design FB ads", I've actually heard a few of these "myths" as converting best.

And they meant CPC. Because the goal for lots of ads is to get the foot in the door, then optimize the rest of the funnel.

The initial click is often the hardest, which is why this article is testing the myths against the CPC, since the overall conversation differs greatly once past that.

<comment><USER2> All feet in the door are not the same. When you're iterating on ad concepts, maybe CPC is an okay metric, or at least an early indicator. But these ads weren't really interations. Without a baseline CPA and running ads related to the ad that generated that baseline, CPC has no context.

Also, if all traffic is going through that to-be-optimized funnel, how does that justify ignoring the CPA of any individual lead source?

The only explanation that makes sense is that conversions aren't frequent enough to find significance. That makes more sense given how many variations were run. In that case, it doesn't make sense to run so many variations. That, or maybe find an in between metric that at least indicates some greater level of lead quality.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> This entire study makes no sense to me.

I've never heard of Sketchdeck, but CPC is meaningless. If they are selling a product, it should be cost per sale or cost per dollar or something in this vein. This is the only metric that means a damn, I could care less who clicks my ad if I can't convert them.

<comment><USER9> > could _not_ care less

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> From the confidence intervals you can tell that there was no statistically significative difference between the different alternatives.</comment>


Google the Evil Genius - <AUTHOR> http://www.google.com/buzz/denny.miu/4qiTFtjiVqN/Google-the-Evil-Genius-Like-other-animals-humans

<comment><USER2> Anyone else marginally entertained by this being written on Buzz?

<comment><AUTHOR> As much as a frog enjoying a bath with slowly rising temperature, I am definitely amused.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> On December 2009, Google's CEO, Eric Schmidt, declared after privacy concerns: "If you have something that you don't want anyone to know, maybe you shouldn't be doing it in the first place.". And on February 2010, he made some of our email contacts public.

But I'm not worried, because I know that the bigger you are, the harder you fall.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Google>

</comment><comment><USER4> I'm not convinced that Buzz isn't just a flash in the pan. The data generated in Buzz seems qualitatively different than the data Google earns its revenues indexing and I don't really see a direct path to how that's going to change.

<comment><AUTHOR> I don't neither. My guess is that in a few months (decades in Internet time) we will know more. Twitter started out differently also and it eventually morphed into something else.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> I think the genius of Google isn't the stuff they build (which is really cool) but the fact that the entire company is built from information essentially available to everyone.

<comment><USER3> No shit, like my email contacts?

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> i think very soon Buzz will gain Wave-like text editing capabilities. You can run a whole blog from within Buzz.</comment>


Terraform and Infrastructure as Code Best Practices - <AUTHOR> https://blog.realkinetic.com/terraform-infrastructure-as-code-best-practices-2591ea047da7 <comment><USER2> We use terraform at work, and because of the process it's a huge pain to work with.

For example, to change permissions kinesis stream, Dev has to to create a PR in the tf config repo and wait for someone in SRE team to merge and apply the PR.

If I intend a single line change, I have to wait till Friday to get it noticed by SRE in a meeting. Then depending on the availability of his time, they would make those changes in upcoming month. God forbid if I make a typo or something.</comment>


Rustboot64: a 64-bit kernel written in Rust - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/IanSeyler/rustboot64

<comment><USER2> The boot code Pure64 is really cool, and your Rust code is a good demonstration of its simplicity. I should try this out sometime.

</comment><comment><USER3> Hmm, I tried out the instructions, but when I did `make run`, it seemed to get stuck at "Executing..."</comment>


Dashku is now open source - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/Anephenix/dashku

<comment><USER2> You might want to link to the Website or at least put some screenshots up ;)</comment>


Forced to subscribe to YouTube Music to stream to Chromecast - <AUTHOR> Google Music is going away and I was asked to move my music and playlists over to YT Music. Fair enough. I mostly stream my own collection and am one of the 13 people left on the planet who still buys music as it's better margins for the artist.
Turns out you can't stream anything to chromecast audio devices without a YT Music subscription (desktop/Chrome doesn't have this limitation).
So I normally shrug at the Google abandonment threads as software is mutable and everything goes away eventually. But this is an artificial limitation that forces us to lease access to the hardware we've already paid for.
Not thrilled in a large way. Next phone will probably be an iPhone, next speakers will probably be Sonos, and the Pixelbook is likely to be my last Google hardware chromebook.
(Solution: move music to a QNAP NAS and stream it from there.)
What are you using for streaming your owned music these days? <comment><USER2> I use plex to stream music to my chromecast's without issue. I buy my music on Amazon in mp3 format. I dont buy music to support the artist primarily. I just dont trust streaming services to keep my music on there for 20+ years. My library will be around longer.

<comment><AUTHOR> Plex, that's a good idea. I tried it on my QNAP NAS and the connector is too old to be useful (couldn't get https to work reliably and opening a port to the outside world just wouldn't work). What are you streaming from?

<comment><USER2> I have a rackmount server running centos, however many people like to stream from pi's or nvidia shields with external hard drives.

[https://support.plex.tv/articles/221099648-limitations- when-...](https://support.plex.tv/articles/221099648-limitations-when-running- plex-media-server-on-nvidia-shield/)

[https://www.ionos.com/digitalguide/server/configuration/rasp...](https://www.ionos.com/digitalguide/server/configuration/raspberry- pi- plex/#:~:text=A%20Raspberry%20Pi%20Plex%20server%20is%20a%20media%20server%20running,devices%20within%20a%20private%20network).

Plex also automatically backs up my family's photos to the server so we dont have to use just google cloud.. though I use both google cloud and plex. (I wanted the full res copies of my photos and videos without google scaling) I should also mention emby works well and I have friends on that side of the camp who are very happy if you dont want to use plex on philosophical reasons. (Closed Source v. Open Source)

<comment><AUTHOR> This is great! Thank you.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: Should I quit my job and start up? Need Advice - <AUTHOR> I've almost decided to quit my Job and start something of my own. I currently make $48k a year and it's pretty good amount in India. I currently need to make at least $2k monthly to pay for my house mortgage and personal expenses.<p>What are the options to make decent side income? Should I take up a part time/consulting job? Can I find any remote jobs which can pay me $2k a month? Need suggestions. :) <comment><USER2> I think the first question is how long will it theoretically take for your startup to generate $2K/month for you? What does that timeline look like? Its easier to make a plan when you have the details laid out. Can you save $x/month and give yourself some runway etc.?

<comment><AUTHOR> Generating $2k a month might take anywhere between 6 months to a year. There's always some possibility to fail, but that's what starting up is all about. I currently have enough savings to keep me going for next 3 months. Paid most of my savings towards downpayment for my apartment.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> No. work on something part time until you have at least enough revenue to determine Customer Acquisition Cost and Life Time Value of a customer. Then you can come up with a solid plan to get where you need to be.

<comment><USER3> I would keep your job though. Until you have something firm on paper. I got laid off and thought I could get something bootstrapped in a couple months. A lot harder than it sounds. So, 3 months later I'm trying to play catch up in getting another job. should have focused on that first.</comment></comment>


Free ("The iTunes Store is a failure.") - <AUTHOR> http://lefsetz.com/wordpress/index.php/archives/2010/08/07/free/

<comment><USER2> _Spotify's got it right. A perfect interface with free streaming and a paid for mobile app that allows thousands of tracks to live on your handset as if you owned them._

Wrong. As if I owned something isn't good enough for many people. It's the same problem as streaming. If I stop paying you a monthly fee I don't own them anymore.

Spotify does allow you to buy DRM free downloads. But there's not a huge difference in price between that and any other service as far as I'm aware. Spotify hasn't really changed the long term situation. Music is still seen as more financially valuable by sellers than by buyers. While the difference in price between legal and free (illegitimately) is still perceived as too high, "piracy" will continue.

(And yes, the quote marks there are a mark of disdain for that term. If I were to call parking infringements "illegal land invasions" I'd be a laughing stock. If you can't make your case with emotive terminology, improve your case)

</comment><comment><USER3> (Stupid anecdote but since the linked article provided no data, only opinion, I have no bad feelings about telling it here:) I like iTunes because it lets me actually own music and build my collection. Sure, I will head over to YouTube if someone tells me about an awesome song but if that song really is awesome I will just buy it. Free music I cannot own and which would be reliably available would be awesome but I still would buy music from iTunes. It wouldn't matter.

<comment><USER4> The problem with 'music I own' is that then you have to organize and manage it. I have many multiple gigabytes of music on my hard drives, but I rarely bother with that anymore when I can just click open Pandora and it plays music I like without me having to think about it.

<comment><USER3> I buy about three to five albums per month. Organizing that is no big deal. I just name it consistently (I have my own capitalization rules ;) after it finished downloading. That's what, maybe two minutes per album? Doesn't seem like work.

<comment><USER4> My issue isn't with the process of cataloging, but with deciding what music to play when it comes time to listen to music. Sure you can just pick some random albums from your collection and throw them on, but if you have a nontrivial number of albums, or a large collection of individual songs, then you quickly end up managing multiple playlists, skipping tracks you don't want to hear not because you don't like them but because you're just not in the mood, etc.

Alternatively, I can just turn on Pandora and it plays music I like. It's literally a one click solution.

It makes better playlists than I could if I spent 2 hours a day perfecting my own. It also goes out and finds new music that I haven't even heard yet, but because Pandora knows more about the music I like than I do, there's a pretty damn good chance it will be right.

In the time since I've started using Pandora I've discovered more new music that I like than I ever did when I was buying individual albums or songs off of iTunes or whatever. Not only that, but I actually buy more CDs because I've heard all the songs on Pandora and I can buy the CDs with confidence, rather than wonder whether I'm going to waste another $15 on crappy music. Although, I was mostly buying CDs to play in my car, but soon I'll be getting a Droid, and then I can just play Pandora directly in my car so CDs might get obsoleted.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> _"Why on earth should anybody pay for it?"_

Because you don't want to deal with ads. You want to listen to music away from your computer. You don't want to use up your Internet cap re-streaming the same content over and over again. Maybe you occasionally have some times in your life where you don't have Internet access 24x7. Maybe you want higher quality audio. Maybe you like albums and don't want to live in a single shuffle world. Maybe you have exotic tastes in music and these services don't offer you the content you like.

</comment><comment><USER6> Wait, what? iTunes is a "failure", and YouTube is the "go-to platform" for "listening to music?" _Citation needed_.

<comment><USER7> If I tell you "play me [X song you've never heard of] within the next five seconds", what will you open?

<comment><USER6> Grooveshark.

Also, there is a difference between on-demand playing a song that I have never heard of within 5 seconds and typical listening patterns (at least for me - YMMV).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I'm enjoying the comments about the lack of data in the linked article. As a tech person who works in the music industry, I've stopped reading most music business centric news as there always seems to be a lack of data driven analysis. So much of the music business is driven by a "vibe" or a "feeling" which can be great for deciding which artists to be in business with, but pretty terrible for most other important decisions.

Considering how many iPods the iTunes Music Store helped sell, I'm not sure it can be referred to as a failure. Perhaps it's a failure for the major music companies in terms of the revenue it drives for THEM (and I assume this is what Lefsetz is saying), but that wasn't the reason for creating the ITMS any more than the reason Apple launched the App Store was to drive revenue for App Developers.

</comment><comment><USER9> My current source of choice for finding music I like is Time-Warner cable's music channels. I usually have something like "Singers and Swing", "Jazz", "Blues", or "Classical" playing. When I hear something I really like, I look it up in Google or in Amazon and see where it is and what people think.

I prefer to buy a CD from Amazon and rip it (at 256 kb) unless the MP3 is significantly cheaper. It then it in iTunes (on my MacBook Pro) and then onto my iPod Classic (160 GB is nice).

I sometimes but rarely buy from the iTunes store. I do subscribe to more podcasts than I can keep up with, but WTH.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Is there anyone here who gets Spotify where it's available? I wonder if you could relate your experience and if it's changed your attitude towards music and particularly iTunes and downloading music.

I ask because people don't seem to have a problem borrowing books from a public library but never buying them after reading. So why is music different?

<comment><USER10> I've been using a normal, free account on Spotify for about a year. The quick summary:

The upsides: fast, and free - and I don't mind the occasional "radio ad" being played. The downsides: not everything I like can be found there as the assortment is heavily geared towards contemporary popular mainstream music, and there is no guarantee that something you find will stay - it has happened plenty of times that a single track has been pulled from an album on Spotify, as well as an entire album being pulled from a represented artist's selection.

I consider the product genial, but as long as the assortment isn't complete (nor guaranteed), I will keep downloading (as well as buying).

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Since when was pirating music hard at all? With today's bandwidth and bittorrent you can have an entire popular album in minutes.</comment>