Ask HN: What are some niche communities you enjoy? - <AUTHOR> <comment><USER2> SCP Foundation. Never really participated, but I love to read them.

[http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/](http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/)

It's basically a group of people writing formal reports on various paranormal things that the fictional SCP Foundation Secures, Contains and Protects (us from). Kind of like reading the paperwork and after-mission reports of SHIELD.

From Wikipedia:

The SCP Foundation is a fictional organization that is the subject of a web- based collaborative writing project of the same name. The stories generated by the project describe the exploits of the Foundation, supposedly responsible for containing individuals, entities, locations, and objects that violate natural law (referred to as SCPs). The main written works on the SCP Foundation website are articles written in the style of structured internal documentation about the contained SCPs. The website also contains thousands of "Foundation Tales", short stories set within the universe of the SCP Foundation.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCP_Foundation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCP_Foundation)

<comment><USER3> > Kind of like reading the paperwork and after-mission reports of SHIELD.

A comparison to SHIELD would be misleading, I think, in that it would suggest an aesthetic/ideology of "heroism" behind the work that's not there. SCP paints a picture of a cynical and dystopian organization, with little concern for loss-of-life of its test subjects.

I would compare SCP more to the Half-Life universe's Black Mesa and Aperture Science research facilities. Or to the Cube movies. Or, I suppose, to The Syndicate from the X-Files (though in that case the comparison would be to the parts of the military doing security and ops _under_ them.)

<comment><USER4> That's a little unfair, insomuch as one of the main premises of the SCPverse is that the monsters and phenomena they're fighting really are bad enough to justify that level of cynicism and paranoia.

I'd say it's closer to (the paperwork and after-action reports from) The Laundry Files by Charles Stross.

<comment><USER3> Paranoia, sure. But the SCP organization uses D-rank personnel for things that regular research labs would use rats for.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Amazed it hasn't come up yet considering the overlap with engineering communities.

Video game speedrunning - playing a video game over and over, trying to beat it in the fastest time possible. It scratches an engineering itch to know miniscule little details and optimizations about a game that you love, and be collaborating/competing with others, working to push down times. It has a chill social aspect to it, where you stream on twitch and your friends watch your attempts, talk about the techniques, and hang out with you while you practice. A lot of incredibly bright, talented and kind geeks. Some of the real scientists behind the scenes are brilliant engineers who poke at ram values and theorycraft routes based on manipulated RNG seeds.

I got into the scene from participating in a speedgaming tournament ([http://speedgaming.org/events/](http://speedgaming.org/events/)), which forced me to learn a game and made me several great friends.

Since then I've gotten deep into a zelda randomizer ([http://alttpr.com/](http://alttpr.com/)) that has a vibrant and passionate community. A really smart engineer realized that you could randomize the items in the game by breaking it down into a dependency graph, so that the game is different every time. You race on the same seed as someone else, and you win by efficiently routing your item checks, better faster at the game, and/or making good gambles. It's one part speedrunning, one part poker.

<comment><USER6> I didn't realize I cared about speed-running until I saw this YouTube video from Summoning Salt about N64's Mario Kart level: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y99Wj- NStok](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y99Wj-NStok)

<comment><USER7> His level 4-2 vid is pretty crazy, 20 minute video about 9 seconds of gameplay [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1AHCaokqhg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1AHCaokqhg)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I get a kick out of pinpointing the exact location of photos or paintings. A couple of communities exists for this:

* Geoguessr (I don't participate in this one much, street view is pretty limiting)

* The Dish's "View from My Window" archive. A now defunct blog series where readers would submit photos from their window. Very difficult. Users often pinpoint the exact window from which the photo was taken. [http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/vfyw-contest/](http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/vfyw-contest/)

* SkyScraperCity's Guess the City contest. A daily contest to guess the city. Also this is a precious internet 2.0 forum. [https://www.skyscrapercity.com/](https://www.skyscrapercity.com/)

* North Korea enthusiasts pinpointing the exact location of Kim Jung Un in official DPRK photos.

* r/whereisthis helps Reddit users locate photos, also allows content just for fun.

* r/PictureGame a more open contest, not necessarily a geolocation task.

<comment><USER9> What kind of tools do you generally use? I'm assuming a search engine to identify particular landmarks/stores/etc, and personal knowledge, but what else?

<comment><USER10> I heard of people looking at the position of stars (on night photos) and the sun to guess the latitude.

There was a story during the 2016 US election campaign where someone had a webcam pointed at a flag for some of the parties, and some folks managed to find the location by observing the stars and drove there and changed the flag, or something like that.

Edit: link to the story: [https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/d7eddj/4chan- does-first-g...](https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/d7eddj/4chan-does-first- good-thing-pulls-off-the-heist-of-the-century1)

<comment><USER11> My favourite if a little harsh description of 4chan is weaponised autism.

Literally in one case [https://www.quora.com/How-did-4chan-get-the- coordinates-of-a...](https://www.quora.com/How-did-4chan-get-the-coordinates- of-an-ISIS-training-camp-and-send-them-to-Russian-officials)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> [https://reddit.com/r/openbsd_gaming](https://reddit.com/r/openbsd_gaming)

We just (10 minutes ago) finished playing a round of Quake 2. Some games are streamed ([https://www.twitch.tv/thfrw/videos/all](https://www.twitch.tv/thfrw/videos/all) | [https://www.twitch.tv/communities/openbsd_gaming](https://www.twitch.tv/communities/openbsd_gaming) | [https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCF2MeFBWJoFZtz0ADX3Us0Q/vid...](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCF2MeFBWJoFZtz0ADX3Us0Q/videos)), we even have some more modern FNA games and a list of games available on GoG for the platform ([https://www.gog.com/mix/openbsd_engine_available](https://www.gog.com/mix/openbsd_engine_available)). We generally hang out on irc #openbsd-gaming @ freenode.

<comment><USER13> Thank you for posting this! The tenacity of the OpenBSD community keeps on impressing me.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> I've been playing Go (the board game) for a while now and I really enjoy it. I just got back from the US Go Congress. I wrote a blog post about it ([https://blog.urth.org/2018/07/29/my-u-s-go-congress- trip/](https://blog.urth.org/2018/07/29/my-u-s-go-congress-trip/)).

For more info on Go, check out:

* Learn the rules - [http://www.usgo.org/learn-play](http://www.usgo.org/learn-play)

* Online Go Server - [https://online-go.com/](https://online-go.com/) \- my personal favorite place to play online (other servers are not Linux-friendly or their software is awful)

* /r/baduk (Go = Japanese, Baduk = Korean, Weiqi = Chinese) - [https://www.reddit.com/r/baduk](https://www.reddit.com/r/baduk)

There's been a lot of progress getting computers to play Go over the last few years, and it's only about 2 years since we've had a computer capable of beating professionals (Alpha Go). Nowadays you can run a better-than-all-pros program on your desktop if you have a decent GPU. Check out [https://github.com/featurecat/lizzie](https://github.com/featurecat/lizzie) for a frontend to Leela Zero, the underlying Go playing program.

<comment><USER15> Online-go.com is, for anyone that played go online before its inception, a breath of fresh air. There's really no way to overstate how it's changed the experience of online play.

<comment><USER16> Could you explain? What was bad before, and what has been solved by this website.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> SDF Public Access UNIX System - sdf.org

It's a free shell service, with paid addons. It has been around since 1987 and retains a lot of the charm of the BBS world. It does this while offering very modern things like Mastodon federated social media, SQL storage, VOIP, and has amateur radio, minecraft, and a ton of other stuff. There really is something for everyone.

I appreciate all of the stuff listed above, but what I personally LOVE most about SDF is that it runs on NetBSD and offers a ton of packages from all the different open source and free software communities. BSD packages, GNU packages, home grown packages.

It's just a very friendly and fun place. I am 'rmusial' on there too. Feel free to say hello!

<comment><USER18> I've signed up for an account and played around a bit and while I love so much about the whole idea of it I don't really know what to do.

<comment><USER17> In my opinion that's part of the fun. SDF is almost like a unix system meets a MUD/MMORPG. You can read through some of the FAQs on sdf.org, but there is so much to just stumble on and discover.

Some fun first things are setup VOIP, check out anonradio, and type 'games' at your shell. Have some fun!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> SONGFIGHT![0]

This is a shameless plug for the venerable bi-weekly songwriting and recording competition known as SongFight!

The idea is, every couple of weeks over at the SongFight website they announce a new song title, from then you have roughly 10 days to write and record an original song with that title. After the deadline expires, the new songs are posted to the site and voting begins. Anyone on the Internet with a unique IP address can vote, and there are usually anywhere between 75 to 250 votes cast for a given fight. Also at that time the votes for the previous competition are posted and the winner(s) are announced. Winners enjoy the smug satisfaction of a job well done.

Everyone who participates enjoys the benefits of having a firm deadline, and a good reason to write and record a song, as well as a motivation for doing a good job.

Members of the SongFight community often review the songs submitted for the fight over on the forums[1], so it can also be a place to get detailed feedback and constructive criticism about your songwriting.

[0]: [https://songfight.org](https://songfight.org)

[1]: [https://songfight.net/forums/viewforum.php?f=3](https://songfight.net/forums/viewforum.php?f=3)

<comment><USER20> 5-6 years ago I was a part of a 30-ish person Skype group that organized a weekly "30 Minute Music Challenge". Every Sunday, a loose theme would be announced ("loss", "slow music", etc), and then you had 30 minutes to write, perform, and mix/render a song and drop it into the Skype chat. After 30 minutes, we'd all join a voice call where each song would be played in succession and anyone could give short impromptu feedback (usually just in the form of encouragement/amazement at whoever managed to pull off something decent in such a short timeframe).

It was pretty great because it was small enough to where we could have special themes like "imitate the style of another artist in the group" and we actually knew each other well enough to where you could do that, and then when listening, you could tell pretty easily "ah, this person is imitating Wallacoloo's style". And even though what you make over the course of 30 minutes is undeniably crap, sometimes the core of it would make for material that you could expand into an actual song over the next week.

The bronies also had a similar take on this type of thing titled Toast Beard. Whenever a new episode of My Little Pony aired, you'd have a week to create an "episode response" \- e.g. remixing any musical acts from that show, vocal splicing the characters, or original works that were related in some other way.

Both of these are, to my knowledge, defunct (although, it's possible they just evolved into different things; I didn't keep up). But they were really fun because they were small groups both with a lot of personality, not serious in the least, and they encouraged a good deal of experimentation. It certainly was something you did for the experience and where the outcome really didn't matter a whole lot.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> Lately i have become obsessed with the internet of artisan horticulture. Just fruiting plants so far:

> exotic banana cultivar discussion

>> bananas.org

> exotic fig cultivar discussion

>> ourfigs.org

>> General tropical fruit discussion

> tropicalfruitforum.com

> weird explorer, a (semi)-edible fruit reviewer

>> [https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChsbD6Clp- ZPqKwXJR3V7DQ](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChsbD6Clp-ZPqKwXJR3V7DQ)

> the amazon of rare and unusual plants

>> logees.com

(although for more obscure plants you often have to find a more local seller on a forum)

So far I have bought a bunchosia armeniaca (a fruit that supposedly tastes like peanut butter) and a petite strain of figs which I am currently trying to fruit.

This does not even touch obvious subcultures like bonsai trees.

<comment><USER22> Wow! If you know how someone in the Midwest USA could get a Gros Michel or two to eat, contact me.

<comment><USER23> You can get some from [https://miamifruit.org/products/gros-michel-banana-box- pre-o...](https://miamifruit.org/products/gros-michel-banana-box-pre-order) . They are very expensive, but if you're in to trying different varieties, maybe worth splitting it with some friends. FWIW, I think you would have a more satisfying taste experience with one of the dozens of varieties you'll find in a Thai/SE Asia-focused grocery store.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> [http://osdev.org/](http://osdev.org/)

Hobbyist Operating Systems Development!

We also have forums: [http://f.osdev.org/](http://f.osdev.org/) and IRC: Freenode/#osdev !

<comment><USER25> I have always wanted to be part of something like this, but didn't know it existed! Thanks for sharing, you might see me there :)

<comment><USER24> Glad to hear! Feel free to ping me on IRC (nick: lkurusa) anytime you feel stuck or just want to chat. We are happy to help you get going!

<comment><USER25> Such a welcoming sentiment - makes me really want to be part of #osdev!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> Southern Ontario (real / traditional) screamo.

Screamo is a very small community but extremely passionate and active.

For example a great show with well known out of town bands in Toronto is about 50-100 people.

But we have people driving from New Jersey to waterloo (not knowing anyone) to see a show with respire, ostraca and Terry green.

I've been involved in music for quite some time but never seen a fanbase this dedicated..

Currently there is a fest in Toronto (new friends fest) where you see people from all over NA with ages ranging 20-40s putting everything into making emotional hardcore.

Watching a band play in a small packed record shop where the band has <1 meter space from the crowd, complemented with a slippery floor from the sweat / condensation, talking about growing up and losing their loved ones to mental illnesses while playing their hearts out was incredibly powerful to watch and I imagine therapeutic to the band.

I've been trying to start to document the scene via live recordings - here's a shared folder

[https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1KJj448eWVQgXSqw94Gfs...](https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1KJj448eWVQgXSqw94GfsReUCnOH3GNtl?usp=sharing)

Favourites so far are Dianacrawls, Hundreds of AU, Terry Green

But there are many amazing acts

<comment><USER27> I used to follow this community about ten years ago. I decided to try to see what remained and all I could find was the SoulSeek community, which is still around.

I'm near NYC, so getting to see Cap'n Jazz last year and the various outfits the City of Caterpillar/pg.99 guys play in has been fun, but I'm out of the loop nowadays. Check out Pianos Become the Teeth if you haven't, they're from the East coast and have followed the typical progression from hardcore to indie emo that seems common in this space.

There's a long-held opinion/joke that there's an emo revival about every decade, so I'm holding out.

Thanks for this.

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> I like /r/mechanicalkeyboards and /r/fountainpens; I'll have a few weeks where I'm really active (at least consuming) there and then I'll kind of leave them for a while. Recently I've been getting involved in indoor vermicomposting and browsing some forums on that. I also tend to keep an eye on communities related to snails, since I'm working on an amateur snail simulation in my spare time (and just like snails).

<comment><USER29> You might like /r/mechanicalheadpens

<comment><USER30> I've long noticed the connection between liking fountain pens and mechanical keyboards, but never noticed the tie to head phones. (I'm sitting here wearing some.)

Maybe the personality trait influencing this is a higher sensitivity to tactile experience. I wonder what other tastes this group might share. Of course, nice notebooks/pads go with the pens. I have an inclination toward boardgames with hefty dice, and I'm very choosy regarding my coffee mugs.

<comment><USER31> I'm into all those things including heavy dice and being choosy about my coffee mug. Also magic the gathering card sleeves and the choice of land art.

And now that I think about it, everything physical I own really.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> Various youtube metalworking channels including AvE and This Old Tony:

[https://www.youtube.com/user/arduinoversusevil](https://www.youtube.com/user/arduinoversusevil) [https://www.youtube.com/user/featony](https://www.youtube.com/user/featony)

Smart, unusual, and entertaining.

<comment><USER33> Surely that list includes Clickspring as well.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> Maybe a bit unusual for this community, but

Historical Firearms and the Development thereof: /r/ForgottenWeapons

as well as /r/guns in general.

Also, [https://www.reddit.com/r/aimdownsights/top/?sort=top&t=all](https://www.reddit.com/r/aimdownsights/top/?sort=top&t=all) is worth checking out.

<comment><USER35> Same here. Can't stand /r/firearms though. I wish there were better gun communities out there.

And I wish guns weren't so expensive. I'm at the point where I have insurance on my gun collection alone.

<comment><USER36> I'm the same. I'm a leftie who enjoys guns (the machines themselves and the physical discipline to use them safely and effectively), but I despise what you might call "gun culture" especially here in the USA.

I wish I could find a good group of like minded who could just focus on the sport without descending into endless political posturing.

<comment><USER35> /r/guns is great for that reason exactly. You get some annoying folks in the comments, but never anything about politics and the whole "libtard bashing" thing isn't done there.

Im with ya. Live in one of the most liberal cities in the states, definitely lean liberal, but love guns too.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> I have enjoyed watching the electronic badge scene at Defcon unfold this year. I don't know how long its been a scene, but some of the badges are pretty impressive mesh networks, blockchains, and breathalyzers. It really brings to mind something like the demo or 'zine scenes of old. It's spreading to the other conventions and meetups it will be interesting to see how far it will go.

If you search #badgelife on twitter you can see some of the action unfold. [https://twitter.com/hashtag/badgelife](https://twitter.com/hashtag/badgelife)

@hacker_hermit has compiled a list [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NgPj- GdSLcI1Rb2Q2sJ5...](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NgPj- GdSLcI1Rb2Q2sJ5BP0MO2vm2MXv_sLVqHSL8wM/edit#gid=0)

Kerry Scharfglass has a video which explains some of the history and process: [https://youtu.be/PUvh5-_HJJg](https://youtu.be/PUvh5-_HJJg)

Pretty cool stuff, maybe one of these days I'll find a Conch of Sobriety.

<comment><USER38> Are they sold anywhere? I can see them becoming very collectible, and fast.

<comment><USER39> Typically only at events, sometimes left-overs are sold or auctioned off or given away otherwise.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> I like to stay updated of what the Kindle hacking community is up to.

[https://www.mobileread.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=150](https://www.mobileread.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=150)

My PW3 Kindle got way better with the many hacks I've learned there.

<comment><USER41> What can you do with a jailbroken Kindle?

<comment><USER40> With a jailbroken Kindle you can, for instance, install koreader[1], a feature-rich alternative ebook reader application that enhances the somewhat limited capabilities of Kindle's native reader.

For instance, with koreader you can open djvus, epubs, fb2 (if you're onto those formats), but what makes koreader especially appealing to me is that it is a far better pdf reader than Kindle's native.

Or you can look for a pool of available hacks[2] that make Kindle's overall usage far more suited to your own particular needs. One example is the screensavers hack that allows you to choose either to use your own images (somewhat interesting if you're onto customizing them to your tastes); or you can, as I prefer, to use that last displayed screen as the screensaver, as this allows you to keep a book's opened page in display while you are taking notes or doing some other book research related task.

Some of these _new_ features are now so essential to my Kindle's experience that I can't imagine myself using an original one without jailbreaking it. Also, I have my Kindle since 2015 and I'm in no hurry to get a newer or _more capable_ model. As it is, it is very tailored to my academic needs.

[1] [https://github.com/koreader/koreader](https://github.com/koreader/koreader)

[2] [https://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=180113](https://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=180113)

<comment><USER42> Is this old XKCD [1] still true? Or have all the cell signals serving it shut down?

[1] [https://xkcd.com/548/](https://xkcd.com/548/)

<comment><USER43> I just got out my Kindle Keyboard (Kindle 3) and tried it out... the 3G still works! It's a bit slow, but you can launch the browser from the Experimental window, choose the Wikipedia bookmark, and it still loads. I was able to search for the entry for the above referenced book and read it.

(That said, it's probably the first time I've used my Kindle Keyboard in months. I mostly use my phone or Samsung tablet for reading Kindle now.)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER44> I'm a homebrew (beer) nerd. The global community is very warm and welcoming for people at all levels. Everyone is interested in building each other up, and it promotes experimentation and precision. As far as niche communities go, there's a very strong but surprisingly small underground of sour beer enthusiasts. [http://www.milkthefunk.com/](http://www.milkthefunk.com/) is an online forum and massive wiki dedicated to discovering and sharing new methods into souring beer. Some of the most well known sour beer brewers contribute and use it as a resource.

<comment><USER45> I made it to "sour beer enthusiasts" before I realized you weren't talking about writing homebrew software for game consoles/handhelds.

<comment><USER44> haha! I went back and edited it to avoid confusion. :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> [https://oulipo.social/](https://oulipo.social/)

It's a mastadon instance where you're not allowed to use the letter 'e'. Tbh I've not been there much lately, but it's fun and has fun people on it. Although not too many people are active there, because it's quite hard work.

A possible winner of the nicheness competition?

<comment><USER47> Amazing. A friend of mine gave me the book "A Void" [1] by Georges Perec a few years ago that follows the same constraint. A little research and it turns out to be because he was a member of that community [2].

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Void](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Void)

[2] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oulipo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oulipo)

</comment></comment><comment><USER48> Motorcycles.

It's a passion that cuts right across society and political outlook. There are people of almost every persuasion into bikes. You end up communicating with people who do very different jobs to you, vote very differently, in fact view the whole world very differently. Gets you out of your bubble.

<comment><USER49> Are there any online communities you can recommend?

<comment><USER50> Adventure Rider (advrider.com) is a fun one if you're interested in that niche of the already niche motorcycle hobby.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER51> Okay, there are a few here, so I apologise for how long the list might be. Either way:

1\. Wario Forums

[https://warioforums.com/](https://warioforums.com/)

A site I run about the Wario Land and WarioWare franchises, which covers everything from the games content to their universe to the tech involved in the games and their design.

The level of dedication to the series honestly surprises even me sometimes, especially given that we've done stuff like reconstructed the soundtracks in original quality by seeking out the samples used from commercial sample packs and merging them with the MIDIs from the games, found tons of unused content in the games by datamining the files and what not and are basically working on a complex level editor for Wario Land 4 right now, basically disassembling the whole game in the process.

2\. Various fan game development/ROM hacking communities (Mario Fan Games Galaxy, SMW Central, ROM Hacking.net el all)

Because to me, the world of fan game, ROM hack and game mod development feels a lot like the web development scene in the 80s and early 90s, where everyone was building interesting things for the fun of it rather than because there was a commercial incentive.

The fact you legally can't make money in these fields may have actually helped keep them interesting, and to some degree makes them a bit like the open source community for game development.

3\. TCRF

[https://tcrf.net/](https://tcrf.net/)

What can I say? It's fascinating to see all the early unused ideas for games, as well as old data found on the discs/cartridges/whatever.

4\. The Lost Media Wiki

[https://lostmediawiki.com/Home](https://lostmediawiki.com/Home)

For much the same reason as above, except instead of focusing on unused content, it focuses on unreleased or hard to find works instead. It can be interesting reading about media that say, aired once about 20 years ago and hasn't been seen since, or what not.

5\. Hacker Forums

[https://hackerforums.co/](https://hackerforums.co/)

What? It's basically Hacker News in traditional forum form, and was launched here a few months ago.

But yeah, those are just a few of the ones I enjoy.

</comment><comment><USER52> Furries

The best part is you not only get to hang out with lots of fluffy animal people (who often share your variety of not quite cis and straight), you get to bring all your hobbies along. Lots of furry musicians, programmers, writers, etc.

<comment><USER53> How do you deal with the unfavorable thermal properties of those suits?

<comment><USER52> Fursuiters are a tiny part of the community. Most people can't afford the $1-17k they cost even if they want one.

I don't know what they use to keep cool.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER54> The best niche communities on the internet would get worse if attention was drawn to them. They're good because they're hard to find and membership is self selecting and/or invite-only. This is true, as far as I can tell, for communities on nearly any topic/subject matter.

<comment><USER55> I disagree. The best niche communities are good because they are niche, not because they're hard to find. It's the focus and passion of the members that makes them what they are, and the ultra-niche nature of those communities is what ensures that people who aren't actually interested will stay away.

If it's impossible to find outside of word of mouth with acquantainces, then the purpose of the internet has been defeated. Why have the ability to connect all of these people with a common interest if you're going to refuse to let serendipity happen?

<comment><USER54> I said "hard to find" not "impossible to find". Start with being in the subreddit or relevant other high-traffic high-SEO community for the subject, and see what other places the good members are discussing (often a discord, IRC channel, Slack, forum or similar). Recurse a few times, and each time you do you'll get a higher signal-to-noise ratio, higher expertise, lower abuse/garbage behavior, etc

If you just link random people directly, you'll inevitably get some folks that can't _read the atmosphere_ and just generally walk all over the flowerbeds without realizing what they're doing. AKA they need to "lurk moar"

<comment><USER56> Following the SEO gradient downwards is a great way to find the best parts of the internet.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER57> Ludum Dare. Four times a year a few thousand people create an entire game in 2 or 3 days, and then spend around a week playing and judging all the games made by others.

<comment><USER58> Ludum Dare is fun but it feels too vast sometimes - very rarely do I interact with a person more than once.

</comment></comment><comment><USER59> Searching for interesting patterns in Conway's Game of Life, and other cellular automata.

[http://conwaylife.com/forums/](http://conwaylife.com/forums/)

</comment><comment><USER60> [http://lesswrong.com/](http://lesswrong.com/) although I wonder if it's still considered niche.

</comment><comment><USER61> Coffee. [https://www.home-barista.com](https://www.home-barista.com)

Love how interactive the community is. Everybody is pretty much obsessed with coffee and you learn so much. From water, to coffee beans, to machines.

<comment><USER62> On that, read "Extracts from the Club Diary", by Charles Stross.[1]

[1] [http://www.antipope.org/charlie/fiction/coffee.html](http://www.antipope.org/charlie/fiction/coffee.html)

</comment></comment><comment><USER63> Does [http://www.metafilter.com](http://www.metafilter.com) count as a niche community? If so, that. Great discussions enabled by a small fee to join and active paid moderators.

Also [http://www.owbn.net](http://www.owbn.net) international live action roleplaying (LARP) network of games, mostly in the US and Brazil. I have friends from all over I've made through it, and as an introvert who sometimes struggled socially when I was younger, it's done wonders for my ability to socialize and understand others.

      Also my writing, persuasive ability, and organizational ability are much much better thanks to having taking part in it's management in the past.

</comment><comment><USER64> The trans community. A lot of us are nerdy as hell and we're consummate biohackers who can tell you shit about your endocrine system that will astonish.

<comment><USER65> What's that one biohack that's universally applicable that everyone should do, and what are the enhancements you'll see from it?

<comment><USER64> There isn't one, at least not straightforwardly.

There's a meta-hack, of sorts, however, that _is_ :

"You don't have to be this way, and you don't have to do what others expect of you. You can change, and you don't have to ask permission. They will make you pay for it -- your friends, spouses, colleagues, institutions -- but the cost of the alternative can be higher still. Be free."

<comment><USER64> Everything else is just causistry and tactics, and must be tailored bespoke.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER66> The set of people building their own roguelike games must surely be one of the smaller subsets of humanity, but if you're in it, the r/roguelikedev subreddit is great.

</comment><comment><USER67> I am a train geek. Waiting for the kid to become a teenager and start ignoring his father so I can be a volunteer at ABPF (Brazilian Railroad Preservation Society). Meanwhile, I go to places where there used to be railways or stations, take photos, write about these things and the history. Since it's been a long-neglected subject, people crave for any bits of information.

<comment><USER68> If you post them somewhere, I'd love to read.

<comment><USER67> Sure!

[https://epxx.co/artigos/](https://epxx.co/artigos/) "Railroads" section. Most material is in pt_BR but I have translated some of them to en.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER69> Muff Wiggler - a forum for modular synth enthusiasts

[https://www.muffwiggler.com](https://www.muffwiggler.com)

<comment><USER70> One of my favorite (and most expensive) hobbies!

<comment><USER71> Neverending GAS...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER72> Cell phone "phreaking" and ESN/MEID/IMEI crew, they're fun but it's now gotten to the point where it's for profit vs how Qualcomm doesn't care.

Half the people are privacy adverse, the other half just profitters.

Still, interesting to modify and manipulate hardware and software on cell phones, although the scene is very different (and more complicated) then 05 (where you could replace the $SYS.ESN file in Hex and checksum to get a new valid ESN)

<comment><USER73> Any links?

<comment><USER74> Does the name Mark Bernay ring a bell? He was one of the giants of the "blue box" era. From Slate: "According the New York Times obituary of Apple founder Steve Jobs, after reading [Ron] Rosenbaum's [Esquire] article, Jobs and his partner in founding Apple, Steve Wozniak, 'collaborated on building and selling blue boxes, devices that were widely used for making free — and illegal — phone calls. They raised a total of $6,000 from the effort.'" Rosenbaum article: [http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/the_spectator/2011/...](http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/the_spectator/2011/10/the_article_that_inspired_steve_jobs_secrets_of_the_little_blue_.html) IRL Mark Bernay ([http://www.wideweb.com/phonetrips/;](http://www.wideweb.com/phonetrips/;) [https://twitter.com/phonetrips?lang=en](https://twitter.com/phonetrips?lang=en)) is Richard Kashdan: [https://www.facebook.com/PhoneTrips](https://www.facebook.com/PhoneTrips) Very cool guy, alive and well in San Francisco

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER75> Top Chess Engine Championship: [http://tcec.chessdom.com/season13/live.php](http://tcec.chessdom.com/season13/live.php) and the amazing community project of LCZero to replicate Alpha Zero results in Chess: [https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/lczero](https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/lczero)

<comment><USER9> Is there a sense that LCZero will eventually catch up to the top traditional contenders like Stockfish, it is there a possibility of a bottleneck with the machine learning?

<comment><USER76> I would argue that the Alpha Zero algorithm does well at learning chess via self play to get to a master level, but the high level chess engines are super-optimized for their specific domain problem and so will remain out of reach.

<comment><USER77> Leela and AlphaZero are already comfortable beyond master level and into the 3200s in ELO terms, at least. As for the best engines today (who I've no doubt we'll see win out at TCEC - Wasp has already been holding its own in division 4) I think they're super optimized on one axis - search, but not optimized very much (in the grand scheme of things) on the other - evaluation.

AlphaZero and LCZero show have orders of magnitude better evaluation is available and can go toe to toe with existing engines despite radically fewer nodes searched. I wouldn't be surprised however, after this current generation of NNs get good, if the traiditional Alpha-Beta engines can't encode _some_ of the more subtle positional knowledge they've picked up, in a way that works quickly with their current architectures.

<comment><USER77> And I expect the flip side is also true - radically better hardware and algorithms for both training and executing neural networks. Even after that, I think there's a huge gap in the market for a system that not only sees tactics deeply and had an almost flawless positional sense, but can explain and train humans in what it sees.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER78> [https://www.reddit.com/r/rational](https://www.reddit.com/r/rational) \- a community about "rationalist" fiction, inspired by HPMOR. A lot of amazing authors and awesome stories, also cool discussion on related topics.

[https://www.reddit.com/r/low_poly](https://www.reddit.com/r/low_poly) \- a subreddit for 3d low-poly art. Really simple and beautiful artworks. You can easily get into voxel art with MagicaVoxel, or you can try Silo to model low- poly stuff.

<comment><USER79> /r/low_poly is beautiful! Thank you for that. Why is Silo ([http://nevercenter.com/silo/](http://nevercenter.com/silo/) \--- is that the right URL?) particularly well suited for low-poly art?

</comment></comment><comment><USER80> Back in the day, I loved flipcode ([https://www.flipcode.com/](https://www.flipcode.com/)), for pure, development-oriented content. r/gamedev was pretty good in the early days, but quickly turned into something I no longer read (reasoning here: [https://www.reddit.com/r/gamedev/comments/3zd4nq/my_opinion_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/gamedev/comments/3zd4nq/my_opinion_on_what_is_wrong_with_rgamedev_and_how/))

</comment><comment><USER81> Mastodon is basically like Twitter was 8 years ago. Except it's also a really cool tech platform as well.

<comment><USER52> Mastodon is what Twitter could have been without having to serve the interests of people shoveling millions into it. The interests of people shoveling ones and tens of dollars into Mastodon are well-aligned with the users because they're the same people.

</comment></comment><comment><USER82> Large format photography: [http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/](http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/)

<comment><USER83> +1 Try also: [http://midwestlargeformat.com](http://midwestlargeformat.com)

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Geocaching! Along with the already mentioned Ingress, it's helped me find so many obscure yet beautiful and interesting locations. The local community is great too, and there is a certain thrill of mischief snooping around for a tiny magnet inside a city trying not to be spotted.

</comment><comment><USER84> I race Spec Miata in SCCA San Francisco region.

The Spec Miata class has ~35 cars in a given race here in the Bay Area. It's probably the biggest amateur class out there. The community is very vibrant and racing is a blast.

<comment><USER85> My hobby is sim racing, because I don't have the time or money to devote to real world racing at the moment. The sim I've put the most time into is iRacing and I'm just wondering if you've ever given it a shot and if so how'd you'd rate the iRacing simulation of the MX5?

<comment><USER84> I don't find racing sims very good. Most of the data you have to use is physical - how to balance the car, how the rear end is moving, how the front tires have lost grip and you need to unwind a bit to make the turn...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER86> Reboot.love

I operate a community for robotics hobbyists interested in doing work for social change. Want to work on cool robots while contributing to open source hardware and software for robots that can help people? If so come check out [http://reboot.love](http://reboot.love)

</comment><comment><USER87> Nanowrimo, I love trying to write 50k words in 30 days every November. I usually fail but there's great camaraderie and a year long build up

<comment><USER20> I've found my way into a vaguely similar group lately. Fairly even split of writers, artists, readers, and people passionate about typesetting. Some people use it for help in editing, or proof reading, etc. But the most interesting thing the group does is to take stories in an existing digital format (could be something somebody there wrote, or more frequently something that was written elsewhere but shared in this group), make cover and/or chapter art for the book, typeset it, and then crowd-fund a small printrun.

Sometimes whoever deals with the actual logistics of the printing and shipping will throw in something extra. In one case, the story was centered around a musician, and the guy who shipped the books also included an audio CD with his interpretation of the songs the character would have performed. In another case, there have been riddles and puzzles included on the first or last pages.

</comment></comment><comment><USER88> Xenharminic has a lot of nice info about alternative musical tuning systems. (Note: they are in the process of migrating away from wikispaces. I'm not sure what the current state of the processes is.)

[http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/](http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/)

</comment><comment><USER89> I live on and repair /removate a canal boat in the UK. It's like a hidden village threaded through London. Extraordinary experience.

<comment><USER90> Looks like such a great experience! How are you getting on power-wise? solar panels? Internet connection? Mobile data?

<comment><USER91> Not the OP, but you can watch videos of how one guy has his boat configured here:

[https://www.journeywithjono.com/](https://www.journeywithjono.com/)

See the "Fit-Out" section. He goes into a lot of detail.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER92> Lucid dreaming - [https://www.reddit.com/r/LucidDreaming/](https://www.reddit.com/r/LucidDreaming/)

<comment><USER93> No way of verifying user's experiences :/

Could be just a bunch of roleplayers.

<comment><USER94> I don't necessarily go there to read other people's stories. My interest was in learning how to do it myself and once I successfully experienced it a few times my perspective on the possibility of other peoples stories was changed

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER95> Not sure if is a niche, I enjoy reading about well-reasoned fights between characters: [http://vsbattles.wikia.com/](http://vsbattles.wikia.com/)

</comment><comment><USER96> It's quieted down a lot in the last few weeks, but I set up [https://hackerforums.co](https://hackerforums.co) to compliment this site for longer running/traditional bulletin board style forum conversations.

<comment><USER97> Your forum is very fast, did you do anything specific to make it that way? :)

<comment><USER96> That's just the magic of using old php forum software. This is just phpBB running behind nginx on a cheap digitalocean droplet. It's just not using a bunch of heavy JavaScript or anything like most modern software, so even though it's not a SPA it is still very speedy.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER98> Extreme privacy :)

For me, fortunately, it's just a game. But I like to think that maybe I'm helping people where it's all too real.

Bottom line, though, it's just fun :)

And by the way, Mirimir is just a persona. In meatspace, I'm a very private person, but not in any remarkable way.

<comment><USER99> Same - except I refer to it as "recreational paranoia"...

</comment></comment><comment><USER100> Not sure if it's considered 'niche', but I enjoy /r/mechanicalkeyboards

</comment><comment><USER101> [https://hackaday.com/](https://hackaday.com/)

</comment><comment><USER102> MUDs. Roguelikes. Dwarf Fortress. Retro games in general.

</comment><comment><USER103> /fit/ and /g/ on 4chan

<comment><USER73> I've always been horrified by the white supremacism, homophobia, sexism, etc. ad nauseam on 4chan. To the extent that I don't want to poke around it too much.

What are those communities like? What's the benefit compared to Reddit/wherever else?

<comment><USER54> The amount of garbage is pretty highly dependent on the board - the entire site isn't /pol/. If you're willing to be your own content filter and can handle a lower signal to noise ratio than a curated community there are a lot of good posts. It's DEFINITELY not for everyone though.

For example, 4chan has some of the most up-to-date English language discussions around for a lot of Japanese fandoms. If you want to discuss new releases of obscure japanese noise bands, you probably want to be /mu/. If you're not on /mu/ and are on some other platform, you're probably just going to get a regurgitated version of the discussion from /mu/ anyway, with an increased propogation delay and someone _else_ doing the cherrypicking. (Note: I'm just using "Japanese noise bands" as an example, I don't know if that particular discussion on /mu/ is good, or if the relevant low-latency discussion is on Twitter, Tumblr, Reddit, etc these days)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER104> [https://reddit.com/r/whatisthisthing](https://reddit.com/r/whatisthisthing)

It's damn impressive how quickly some of the most obscure requests are answered due to the sheer number of eyes looking at them.

</comment><comment><USER105> Podcasters! I'm cheating a bit with this answer, because this is really the industry I've worked in for the past 3+ years. But it still strikes me what camaraderie there is between audio producers, and even great goodwill/respect between tech platforms that are ostensibly competitors. I think both phenomena are a function of the fact that the industry is more concerned with growth, improving podcasting tech, and attracting new listeners/advertisers (rather than just competing for existing ears/dollars). Result: podcasters genuinely try to help each other, and enjoy meeting like-minded souls at meet-ups. Also, see online communities like "Podcast Movement Community - For Podcasters" Facebook group (14,000+ members) and many more online groups with thousands of members. There's a StackOverflow-level generosity of knowledge/advice sharing. Example: I shared this "Grateful for friendships" post after an _industry conference_ [https://www.instagram.com/p/BlxX3pjgr06/?taken- by=awesoundap...](https://www.instagram.com/p/BlxX3pjgr06/?taken- by=awesoundapp)

</comment><comment><USER106> Weather forums run by serious weather geeks, some of which are actual professionals. Especially towards and during extreme weather events these are a lot of fun.

<comment><USER107> Also interested, any pointers?

<comment><USER108> This one is pretty good for Pacific Northwest [http://cliffmass.blogspot.com/](http://cliffmass.blogspot.com/)

Another interesting specialist weather site to look at (not a community per se): [https://www.windy.com/](https://www.windy.com/)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER109> Birding

While recently I've been less involved due to work/family commitments, it's fun to always be on the lookout. I've also enjoyed tallying birds by sound while running outdoors.

[http://ebird.org](http://ebird.org) Also, [http://xeno- canto.org](http://xeno-canto.org) (the "mysteries" section can be fun)

</comment><comment><USER110> Two very niche ones I follow on Reddit.

/r/CasualUK: Light-hearted UK chat, free from politics. Very wholesome if you're from the UK, and a great distraction from what a shit-show the country can be at times.

/r/bjj: The Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu subreddit. If you've ever been interested in taking up a martial art I recommend checking it out, and seeing if there are any gyms in your area.

<comment><USER111> Thank you for introducing me to CasualUK. This looks incredible.

</comment></comment><comment><USER112> [https://aoezone.net](https://aoezone.net) , home to pro / semi-pro Age of Empires 2

<comment><USER113> to me, Pro == making-a-living-at

How does one be Pro at AoE?

<comment><USER114> Some are casters, like T90[0]. They stream a couple of hours of AoE2 commentary every day on Twitch. They collect income from Twitch subscriptions and donations and also Youtube ad revenue. It's very hard work for not a lot of money.

A very small handful of top players plays it full time. Viper[1] is the "top guy" currently and he streams on Twitch. So his income is Twitch + Youtube + tournament winnings.

[0] [https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZUT79WUUpZlZ- XMF7l4CFg](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZUT79WUUpZlZ-XMF7l4CFg)

[1] [https://www.youtube.com/user/TheViperAOC](https://www.youtube.com/user/TheViperAOC)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER115> fetlife -- Like a kinky facebook, where everyone can ask really embarrassing questions and discover:

1) misconceptions

2) that there are others like them.

3) others have the same problem as well.

I have found good work-related question discussions like: "How can I say something nice to a woman without crossing any personal boundary lines." (A question that is hard to get a good answer from HR training); "How can I break up with someone I work with"

There is also the "Kinky And Geeky" group: ([https://fetlife.com/groups/81](https://fetlife.com/groups/81)) and the "Kinky & Geeky Convention Circuit" ([https://fetlife.com/groups/121830](https://fetlife.com/groups/121830)) which are good for meeting up with others randomly.

</comment><comment><USER116> bogleheads.org -- DIY personal finance and investing discussion site.

Discussions can take you fairly far into the weeds but you learn a heck of a lot.

</comment><comment><USER117> reddit.com/r/proceduralgeneration

<comment><USER118> Thanks for this.

</comment></comment><comment><USER119> The local community of Ingress players in my city. It also acts amazingly well as a human-powered search/recommendation engine and mutual help community.

<comment><USER9> I love Ingress for the discovery factor (there's many works of public art that simply aren't indexed anywhere else), unfortunately our local community is a bit toxic so I play solo and use it as an enhanced map more than anything these days. Maybe when 2.0 comes out...

<comment><USER119> Just out of curiosity, what do you think 2.0 could fix in terms of community toxicity?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER120> I recently wrote a ranty blog post about how much I love the online "future of programming" community [http://futureofcoding.org/essays/sissies](http://futureofcoding.org/essays/sissies)

</comment><comment><USER121> A game I used to play as a teenager: Quakeworld Teamfortress. There are a few discord channels for the various countries where people still play (US: [https://discord.gg/FStt9pw](https://discord.gg/FStt9pw), Brazil: [https://discord.gg/Ew3NY2Z](https://discord.gg/Ew3NY2Z), Australia: [https://discord.gg/amed6v](https://discord.gg/amed6v)) with organised games happening on particular days each week. What's great is that development/new maps are still being made.

<comment><USER122> Wow, I used to play this all the time in Australia too.. maybe I'll try and join some games.

</comment></comment><comment><USER123> I enjoy lurking some niche subs

/r/waifuism is probably my favorite

</comment><comment><USER124> I love painting miniatures. It's a kind of meditation for me.. the attentional to detail. It's a little bit like pruning a bonsai tree.

The community at [http://www.reddit.com/r/minipainting](http://www.reddit.com/r/minipainting) is wonderful and always willing to provide constructive feedback if you ask genuinely. Also [http://www.coolminiornot.com](http://www.coolminiornot.com) to see some of the amazing work other people are doing (or just to feel bad about your own).

</comment><comment><USER125> Various Land Rover forums [0], [1], [2] for keeping my 17 year old Discovery 2 running. I don't think I could have owned a vehicle like this (and done work on it myself) without the knowledge shared through these communities.

[0] [https://www.landyzone.co.uk/forum/](https://www.landyzone.co.uk/forum/)

[1] [https://landroverforums.com/forum/](https://landroverforums.com/forum/)

[2] [https://discoweb.org/](https://discoweb.org/)

<comment><USER126> Practically a spring chicken! Online car forums are so often amazing. I probably knew enough to pull down an Nissan PS13 engine before I had even bought the car, simply through absorbing hard earned knowledge in discussion boards. Something about car nuts makes them compulsively share their experience in the area.

</comment></comment><comment><USER127> [https://www.reddit.com/r/Ultralight/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Ultralight/)

Ultralight backpacking. Gets you outdoors, can get quite nerdy though!

<comment><USER128> Reminds me of r/edc, and r/buildapc

<comment><USER129> I feel like r/edc and r/buildapc run against r/ultralight philosophically. The first two are about having a bunch of stuff you don't need: for r/edc, stuff like multiple weapons and tools that rarely ever see use; for r/buildapc, excessive hardware ("futureproofing") and furniture for playing games. On the other hand, r/ultralight is about reducing your kit to the actual essentials that will be carried over nontrivial distances and used daily.

<comment><USER128> r/edc is more like r/guns but I see your point most of the stuff people "carry" about them is absolutely absurd. I just carry my carkeys, a decadent titanium wallet, and my phone.

I mentioned r/buildapc because the way the table layout specs on r/ultralight feels similar. People have a goal and layout everything they use inside of that backpack or pc-case. There's not much else the same besides that.

<comment><USER35> /r/edc is a thinly veiled /r/iamverybadass

"22/SDE, my EDC" \- proceeds to have a Leatherman, 2 knives, a phone, wallet, gun, and 2 mags...

<comment><USER102> Rule of thumb: skip any edc that has a gun or more than 1 knife.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER130> Makerspaces are fun place to find all sorts of niches in the DIY community.

</comment><comment><USER131> /r/bjj is my favorite, it has the perfect balance of extremely useful discussion and knowledge sharing along with some percentage of shitposting to keep it interesting.

<comment><USER132> Surprisingly a noticeable chunk of the people in my bjj classes were software engineers. A lot higher percentage than in my boxing or muay thai classes.

<comment><USER131> I've noticed that too, especially in the gi compared to boxing. Lots more doctors / lawyers / engineers training in the gi. I think it's because we're all weak and need the grips to slow people down, haha. Well let me speak for myself, I'm weak and need the grips to slow people down.

<comment><USER132> Hah, could be a strength thing but most of the guys/gals Ive spoken with about it seem to join choose bjj over another martial art for the brain safety. Way less chance of a concussion in grappling than boxing, kickboxing or muay thai!

I prefer the Gi too, work on your monkey grip in no-gi if thats giving you problems though!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER133> RC racing.

Early this year I joined the local RC racing club and bought I used 1/10th scale 2WD buggy kit. I found it amazingly entertaining, almost zen-like, to do racing. It is like a video game, but in real life. And to learn skills, see how you improve, learn more about the setup and technical parts. All in a great, helpful community with a mix of people from all backgrounds. You've got that awesomely fast 12 year old kicking the ass of a 35 year old CEO at the track...

</comment><comment><USER134> Ultra running, and well, just running in general.

Two nights ago I got to stand on the 5th lane of a track and watch 13 guys run a sub-4 mile. First place ran a 3:57 and missed the NC record by .03 seconds. 5 women ran under 4:30, with first place running a 3 second PR.

Earlier, I had run the anchor leg for my local running club in the 4x400.

There are few sports so accessible. The ultra community in particular is very welcoming and volunteer driven.

<comment><USER135> Would recommend r/running for anyone interested in running. It is a wholesome and very supportive community.

</comment></comment><comment><USER136> Elements is an old card game, [http://elementscommunity.org](http://elementscommunity.org) is a community I enjoyed for years, enough to create an open source offshoot of the game [https://etg.dek.im](https://etg.dek.im) since its developer went AWOL

</comment><comment><USER137> CloudyNights/Astrobin for astrophotography

</comment><comment><USER138> Hearth.com

Crazy fireplace people. They love getting a fire running just so (upside-down of course). Chop down their own wood, split the logs, build their own wood shed.

Look: [https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/show-us-yours-wood- shed....](https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/show-us-yours-wood-shed.88203/)

Hidden shelter under wood shed: [https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/show-us- yours-wood-shed....](https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/show-us-yours-wood- shed.88203/page-2#post-1144643)

I live in suburbia, but now I know how to test wood for moisture, how long to season it, how to stack a fire properly, how to keep it running at the optimal temperature range. not very important where I live but I enjoy fiddling with my wood fire in winter.

</comment><comment><USER139> Charged Tech is good: [https://community.char.gd/](https://community.char.gd/) \- forum/newsletter/chat.

Psychedelic Experience Discord- [https://discord.gg/8vS9gCt](https://discord.gg/8vS9gCt)

<comment><USER140> This guys has an interesting business model.

Just curious: With all the free online content, how do you justify paying for this service ?

I wonder how do you get your initial userbase with this kind of model...

<comment><USER141> €80/yr is about the same price as a magazine subscription. It's a fair price for good content. Free content is an inherent compromise - the creators are always splitting their attention between creating content and raising revenue.

Patreon has had a hugely positive impact on a lot of content creators. They're not worrying about the latest algorithm changes on YouTube or AdSense, they're not chasing down sponsorship or shady native advertising, they're just doing what they do best.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER142> If you want to be outdoors more, there's the following communities (with forums, maps, and apps):

Mountain Project (a Climbing Resource) [https://www.mountainproject.com/](https://www.mountainproject.com/)

Hiking Project [https://www.hikingproject.com/](https://www.hikingproject.com/)

Trail Run Project [https://www.trailrunproject.com/](https://www.trailrunproject.com/)

Powder Project (Backcountry Ski Maps) [https://www.powderproject.com/](https://www.powderproject.com/)

MTB Project (Mountain Biking) [https://www.mtbproject.com/](https://www.mtbproject.com/)

<comment><USER143> I would add Bikepacking.com

</comment></comment><comment><USER144> I do volunteer trail maintenance on the Pacific Crest Trail with the PCTA. It's a great way to get outside and do some physical labor for those of us who sit in a cube 40+ hours per week. You also get to see and camp in some of the most beautiful parts of the country and work with a whole host of other volunteers who have been extremely pleasant to the last in my experience.

Bonus: For those who want to be very involved, you can get First Aid/CPR, chainsaw or crosscut sawyer, crew leader training/certification for 'free'. So long as you pay it back by utilizing those skills on work parties. Some groups also run a trail steward program where you can 'adopt' a section of the trail to maintain over time.

</comment><comment><USER145> "Fusion" partner dancing, e.g. [https://www.missionfusion.com/](https://www.missionfusion.com/)

Re the vid on that page, we very rarely have a live musician playing in the midst of the dancers! Music is generally by DJs.

</comment><comment><USER146> rizon ircs for programming. People make fun of this place a lot

<comment><USER147> Why do people make fun of it? Never heard of it

<comment><USER102> Mostly the insufferable Silicon Valley entrepreneur stereotype.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER148> Cross-stitch, crochet, sewing, crafting. I'm in a Facebook group where women share photos or designs of reusable pads they made. It's a great place where women can ask for help, talk about endometriosis or pregnancy, share sewing advice, as well as talk about different types of fabrics.

My friend's in a Fb group for mushroom enthusiasts. They share photos of mushrooms they find in their yard and hikes.

I joined a sous vide fb group- all food photos.

As an Amazon seller, I'm in an Amazon PPC fb group. Troubleshooting Amazon ad campaigns is fun for me. It's amazing to see all the different things people are into.

</comment><comment><USER149>
      telnet telehack.com

</comment><comment><USER22> Some of the DIY car communities/forums are a lot of fun. I spend too much time keeping an old Porsche on the road and the information and comradery available in the community is fantastic

<comment><USER150> what model/year? Are you a PCA member?

</comment></comment><comment><USER151> Https://advrider.com adventure motorcycle riding community

</comment><comment><USER152> [https://www.discogs.com/](https://www.discogs.com/)

[https://pixls.us/](https://pixls.us/)

[https://www.ifixit.com/](https://www.ifixit.com/)

[https://forum.f-droid.org/](https://forum.f-droid.org/)

[https://indiewebify.me/](https://indiewebify.me/)

</comment><comment><USER153> Trail and ultra running

</comment><comment><USER154> RLBot: [http://www.rlbot.org/](http://www.rlbot.org/)

Just got into making bots for a game called Rocket League. The game is physics based (it's cars with rockets playing soccer, if you don't know RL) and it's very early days for botting. The community is pretty great, mostly hang out in the discord. There was just a tournament between all the bots this weekend as well.

</comment><comment><USER155> The Flow-based programming google group:

[https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/flow-based- programmi...](https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/flow-based-programming)

It has been a bit less active over the last couple of months, and sadly been plagued by a bit of spam, but historically there have been enormously interesting discussions there, by very insightful IT-veterans.

</comment><comment><USER156> [https://pnut.io/](https://pnut.io/)

It's a kind of unofficial App.net successor, created by one of ADNs former users

</comment><comment><USER157> The BMX community. A lot chiller and less competitive than other cycling communities. You are always "hanging out" while riding BMX.

</comment><comment><USER158> Samplerbox (python raspberry pi synth using wav files) [http://www.samplerbox.org/](http://www.samplerbox.org/)

A little known fact is that it is cross-platform, I manage to build a executable version with pyinstaller for windows. Some day I'll take some time to release it with a minimalist gui (just to select the soundcard).

</comment><comment><USER159> /r/parahumans

/r/starcraft

<comment><USER160> I prefer /r/broodwar

</comment></comment><comment><USER161> I love [http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/index.php](http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/index.php) forums for great information on new local urban planning developments and/or general chit chat and local politics. I find it much better than Reddit, for instance.

</comment><comment><USER162> The WordPress community.

</comment><comment><USER163> Parkrunning - www.parkrun.com

Community organised free 5km runs every Saturday morning. A great way to get some exercise for all abilities. Even if you walk the route - and plenty do - you'll get support from other participants and the marshalls all the way around. You can make it as competitive as you want.

</comment><comment><USER164> The #startups irc channel on Freenode.

<comment><USER93> Any job postings?

</comment></comment><comment><USER165> The Professional Pilots Rumour Network:

[https://www.pprune.org/](https://www.pprune.org/)

Which is pretty much what the name suggests. Airline pilots, both passenger and commercial flights, swapping news and rumours.

</comment><comment><USER166> Argentine tango : check out the "my double life" TED talk at [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhdI3FNItHk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhdI3FNItHk) .

</comment><comment><USER167> /r/ElectricUnicycle/

local facebooks groups are more active than than reddit though.

</comment><comment><USER168> Private trackers like What.CD and its successors.

r/DataHoarder, for how to store everything.

</comment><comment> yann-gael Amiga community!

</comment><comment><USER169> I'm a frequent at Slickdeals.net.

It's not a niche, as it is hugely popular, but it is the best place to find deals on stuffs (electronics, clothes, flights, food, beverages, etc.).

</comment><comment><USER170> Amateur radio! There's a growing interest in it from the Maker movement and people interested in SDR. It's a really great community as long as you avoid the bands where boomers complain about the VA, liberals, and young people.

If you're looking to test the waters - RTLSDR is cheap and a good place to start.

<comment><USER141> The teams behind WSJT and FreeDV are doing some very exciting stuff with digital modes. There are a proliferation of affordable, capable SDRs including the RTL-SDR, the SDRPlay RSP and the HackRF One. We might be in a solar minima, but it's a great time to be getting into amateur radio.

[http://physics.princeton.edu/pulsar/K1JT/](http://physics.princeton.edu/pulsar/K1JT/)

[https://freedv.org/](https://freedv.org/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER171> Stair Climbing [https://www.meetup.com/Stairclimbers- LA/](https://www.meetup.com/Stairclimbers-LA/)

</comment><comment><USER172> the youtube rollerblading community is pretty interesting. it feels like everyone knows one another even though they're spread across the globe.

</comment><comment><USER173> 8bc.org used to be amazing. I loved that place.

</comment><comment><USER174> @lainon now I am curious why you would ask such a question :D

What are you going to do with the answers?

<comment><USER174> I am impressed the number of answers though!

</comment></comment><comment><USER175> r/programminglanguages along with the associated IRC channel, #proglangdesign. I'm working on building a compiler, so I'm interested in learning more about newly built languages and related topics (e.g. type theory).

</comment><comment><USER176> Lobste.rs

Hacker News with less Silicon Valley culture.

<comment><USER177> Hacker News and Lobste.rs are my favorite, tech forums. Quite complementary.

For those unfamiliar with Lobste.rs, it's a smaller, slower-moving, mostly- tech-focused forum. It has many low-level hackers and CompSci people, too. So, we have more in-depth submissions on those topics. They also might survive on the front page longer just due to less competition for it like HN has. Occasionally, we also have highly-educational comments from those people that I don't see elsewhere. I always compare comment sections of anything on both HN and Lobsters to spot that. There's also some folks that just don't like really-big, fast-moving sites. They submit exclusively to smaller communities like Lobste.rs.

So, those are the main benefits of the site for anyone interested.

<comment><USER178> Would love an invite to lobste.rs my man.

<comment><USER177> I don't do invites right now. The best place to get one is just ask nicely in chat:

[https://lobste.rs/chat](https://lobste.rs/chat)

If you get on, send me a message through the Lobsters site saying so. I'll reply with something to help you get started.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER179> kOS. The in-game programming language for KSP, accessible via a mod. The subreddit is pretty interesting, and folks are always doing cool stuff on YouTube. Also a great way to learn the physics involved.

</comment><comment><USER180> Offset electric guitars. Mechanical keyboards. Ultralight hiking.

</comment><comment><USER181> HackerNews itself. Everything else falls under subgroup of it.

</comment><comment><USER182> r/bikewrench

</comment><comment><USER183> Halal market

</comment><comment><USER184> Ultimate Frisbee.

Psychedelics.

Relationship as a Path.

Majagual.org

<comment><USER185> cyclekarts: [http://cyclekartclub.com](http://cyclekartclub.com)

<comment><USER184> ?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER186> This one :)

</comment><comment><USER187> Pornhub.

</comment><comment><USER188> r/flying

</comment><comment><USER189> Paper notebooks and wood cased pencils. Writing with natural things knowing they're not 1's and 0's and they will likely be around for a long time is fascinating.

</comment><comment><USER190> One of the longer running open knowledge communities still in existence today is the cannabis community. People are growing their medicine at home. How great is that?

There's a rather vibrant community of DIY cannabis growers on Reddit. Subforums include /r/microgrowery, /r/macrogrowery, /r/autoflowers, and a very niche /r/spacebuckets.

DIY growers cross-bred small lots over years and years, ultimately creating most of the 1000+ strains enjoyed today. A while back, a small group of pot entrepreneurs registered the genetics of these strains in the public domain so that corporations couldn't patent them: [https://opencannabisproject.org/](https://opencannabisproject.org/)

</comment><comment><USER191> Our community originally started around my Open Source decentralized database.

But later, we realized that the community of people in it was a lot more valuable than the system itself.

Why? They're some of the __nicest __hard-working problem-solving people I 've met.

I bet you'd fit right in at [https://gitter.im/amark/gun](https://gitter.im/amark/gun) !

</comment><comment><USER192> The skyscraper aficionados at skyscrapercity.com

</comment><comment><USER193> Oulipo

</comment><comment><USER194> Although we refer to ourselves more as an army than a community, I can't stop raving about what's going on over at Cent. I literally can't stop - I am on my 81st blog post about the site (proof: [http://kayageetheworld.blogspot.com/search/label/CENT](http://kayageetheworld.blogspot.com/search/label/CENT)).

The sense of community is surprisingly strong at Cent, which is kind of amazing for a site where the stated purpose is to provide a way for anyone to earn income from anywhere by paying users for providing responses that are no different than FB posts or Tweets. The difference between Cent and FB and Twitter though is that users on Cent are responding to posts that have a monetary bounty attached to them, so users are incentivized to make quality responses in order to get a piece of the bounty. Users also get paid for making the equivalent of a FB like or Twitter heart (but don't quit your day job to like responses since we're you'll earn a few cents per bounty).

I'd say more, but heading over to [https://beta.cent.co/](https://beta.cent.co/) and trying it out for yourself is more effective than any explanation.</comment>


Can Desalination Counter the Drought? - <AUTHOR> http://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/can-desalination-counter-the-drought <comment><USER2> > All told, it takes about 3460 kilowatts per acre-foot to pump water from > Northern California to San Diego; Carlsbad will use about thirty per cent > more energy, five thousand kilowatts per acre-foot, to desalinate ocean > water and deliver it to households, according to Poseidon's report to the > Department of Water Resources

These units are abominations. Couldn't just say 2.8 Watts per liter vs 4.0 Watts per liter? Or even 10.6 and 15.3 Watts per gallon? I'm not a metric purist, but the only advantage to using imperial units is that they are more familiar to the average American, but when does the average person deal with acre-feet?

<comment><USER3> It doesn't even make sense! The units don't match up. Kilowatts are a measure of power, energy over time, and an acre-foot is a measure of volume, not flow (volume over time).

It's like saying how many horsepower it takes to drive from SF to LA. Makes no sense.

<comment><USER4> Yes, they must have meant kilowatt hours. Was there no editor?

<comment><USER5> Scientific mistakes in a paper like the new yorker is like poor grammar in a startup CEO's writing.

It just happens.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> > All told, it takes about 3460 kilowatts per acre-foot to pump water from > Northern California to San Diego;

Does the author mean 3,460 kilowatt- _hours_?

> Lambert showed me a series of pumps at the Carlsbad plant that collectively > exert seven thousand horsepower of energy (eleven hundred pounds per square > inch of pressure)

Holy hell, how am I supposed to reason about any of these numbers? The mix of units and ignorance of power/energy differences makes the numbers completely useless to the reader. Near the beginning of the article, the daily volumes are discussed in terms of millions of gallons, but later on, acre-feet is used.

Sorry if this comment is too ranty...

<comment><USER7> Not nearly ranty enough, IMO. Units are not _that_ hard, and anyone who wants to write about this stuff for public consumption must put in the effort to get them right.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> I've posted about this before, but the UAE has an interesting solution to water and electricity generation.

One of the by products of oil production is natural gas that accumulates as pockets in the wells. Compared to crude oil this is a lot harder to store and transport, so in most cases is just burned off (if you ever fly over The Gulf at night, you can see the flames from the wells doing this).

This by product is what is used to generate water and electricity. Sea water is heated with the natural gas, and turned into steam which runs turbines to generate electricity. The steam is then cooled, which provides desalinated water. The water is stored in tanks for a few days where limestone rocks are added (from other parts of the country) to provide minerals, then fed into the public water system.

The newest "M" plant produces 2,000 MW of electricity and 140 million gallons of water a day, with an overall efficiency of 85%. It cost around $3 billion to build.

[http://www.power-technology.com/projects/jebel-ali-m- station...](http://www.power-technology.com/projects/jebel-ali-m-station/)

<comment><USER9> How much natural gas does this cost?

<comment><USER10> Presumably very little since the natural gas is a by-product of oil drilling.

<comment><USER9> I was asking how much natural gas, not how much money. And I'm assuming it's not very little since the energy required to desalinate is the #1 cost.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> The conclusion of the debate here is boring: yes, but only by extreme effort, i.e. redirection of 1-10% of economic and energy resources towards water acquisition. We're not all gonna die, but that's as comforting as it gets. Desalination is great for supplying coastal cities, bonkers everywhere else.

The economic consequence is a drastic rise in the price of conventional agricultural products (especially land meats) and a corresponding _relative_ fall in the price of unconventional products (nuts, seeds, beans, aquaculture) which drives investment in the latter to hopefully yield a less water-hungry agricultural system... but a very different palate. The general outcome of capitalist systems are heterodox (one of capitalism's advantages); we expect to see some compensation from desalination, tertiary sewage treatment, and more water-efficient farming practices. It would be less painful if we didn't fight reality with agricultural subsidies and water grants.

</comment><comment><USER12> Drought caused by global warming countered by using desalinated water which is produced using energy from fossil fuels which contributes to more global warming.

Although in CA looks like the majority of their electricity comes from natural gas and renewable resources[1] which is a start, I suppose.

[1][http://energyalmanac.ca.gov/electricity/total_system_power.h...](http://energyalmanac.ca.gov/electricity/total_system_power.html)

<comment><USER13> I have wondered for a long time whether pairing a desalinator with a generation III+ or later fission reactor could be made more efficient than having both built separately and linked via transmission lines. It seems like there ought to be some opportunity for synergy there, but there are now so many reactor designs that include light water that I have no idea how that might work for any of them.

<comment><USER14> And potentially the same plumbing for incoming water could be used to cool the reactor. In fact now that I think about it, all of the waste heat of the reactor could go toward evaporating the water.

<comment><USER15> Waste heat? Evaporating the water? Nuclear power plants are steam engines. _All_ their heat goes to evaporating water.

Come to think of it, I wonder if you could harvest the steam from a nuclear plant, run it through a condenser or distiller, and in that way produce electricity and purify water at the same time.

<comment><USER16> Harvesting the steam is a clever idea, but I don't know if the average consumer is ready for what would be spun as "radioactive Franken-water".

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> > Add to that the fact that almost all of the freshwater consumed by the > twenty-two million people of Southern California is imported, much of it > pumped long distances, over mountains, from Northern California

The author's conclusion may very well be correct for all I know, but I think it is somewhat misleading to say that the water is "pumped long distances." There are points where it is pumped, but one of the things that makes the system so fascinating from an engineering standpoint is how much of it relies on gravity, including massive siphons that literally pull the water over mountain ranges.

<comment><USER18> You are correct that it's only being pumped in places, but that doesn't really change the fact how much energy we are using to move water.

A fifth of energy usage in California is water related, and a fifth of that is for pumping, over 10TWh anually.

<comment><USER19> Citation? I find that an incredible figure.

<comment><USER18> Sorry for the late reply. The 19% power figure comes from the PUC. Here are some links:

[http://www.kqed.org/news/science/climatewatch/waterandpower/...](http://www.kqed.org/news/science/climatewatch/waterandpower/waterneedspower.jsp)

This one goes into more detail and picks that 19% number apart. Also quotes the 10TWh number:

[http://blogs.kqed.org/climatewatch/2012/06/10/19-percent- cal...](http://blogs.kqed.org/climatewatch/2012/06/10/19-percent-californias- great-water-power-wake-up-call/)

<comment><USER19> Thanks

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> I've often felt a twinge of guilt that I don't spend my time working on something with a more _direct_ path to making people's lives better... by doing something like creating freshwater, for example. I sometimes wish I'd chosen to major in materials science (or whatever) and was working on, say, creating a newer better desalination technology or something.

Oh well, too late to go back now, but at least it warms the heart a bit to see this happening. I've always thought desalination was an amazingly powerful technology, and I'm glad to see it getting some use on a large scale.

Of course, that's not to ignore the side effects, like what to do with the leftover salt, but almost everything has _some_ side effect.

<comment><USER21> "Oh well, too late to go back now"

I understand the regret, but it's only too late when you're dead. If you want to do it you can find a way.

<comment><USER20> Strictly speaking, yes. On a more practical level, not really. As old as I am, if I started over now trying to learn a new field like that, I'd probably be ready to retire before I learned enough to be useful.

Anyway, it's not that I dislike the path I'm on, it's just the occasional twinge of that feeling that I wish the stuff I was doing had a more direct impact on the world. OTOH, given the path I'm on, I still hope to help make the world a better place, and if we'e successful I think we'll have a chance at doing that, albeit in a different way.

<comment><USER21> I understand, but what if what you were interested in learning was something you wanted to pursue even after your formal retirement? Wouldn't it make sense to switch earlier rather than later?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> I've thought about solar desalination a lot lately, pumps + glass + desert = water. Then you can sell the salt by product during the cold weather to the north east.

<comment><AUTHOR> That's the sort of thing that sounds like you're closing the loop, but has some serious flaws the deeper you go. First off, where is that water coming from? You mention desert, so is it an incredibly saline salt lake or briny fossil aquifers? If you're pumping out mass quantities of fossil water, be prepared for an eventual end, and localized subsidence, depending on the depth/structure of the formation.

Then there's the salt. Salt's actually kind of on the downslope in terms of its use in de-icing. You're literally salting the earth around roadways. Places that see a lot of snow and have a lot of waterways (from personal experience, like Northern Wisconsin and the UP), actually use sand instead. You expect there to be snow on the roads for a number of months regardless, so you're just offering some traction. Certain places in the Northeast are the same as far as I'm aware. Here's a resource on road salt from New Hampshire[1]. Pickle brine[2] and beet juice[3] are also beginning to get some play. Not to say the rock salt market couldn't absorb some additional supply, but I don't know where the limit is if we're talking mass desalinization.

[1] [http://des.nh.gov/organization/divisions/water/wmb/was/salt-...](http://des.nh.gov/organization/divisions/water/wmb/was/salt- reduction-initiative/impacts.htm)

[2] [http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/02/140204-melt-...](http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/02/140204-melt- snow-ice-salt-beet-juice-pickle-brine/)

[3] [http://time.com/5761/salt-shortage-triggers-beet-juice- chees...](http://time.com/5761/salt-shortage-triggers-beet-juice-cheese-brine- alternatives/)

<comment><USER13> The Salton Sea is below ocean level. If you dug a canal out to Laguna Salada and into the Gulf of California, the ocean water would flow, by gravity, into the depression.

If nothing else, you could probably truck the salt to Coyote Dry Lake and just dump it on the existing salt flats there.

<comment><USER23> The Salton Sea is 230 feet below sea-level. Locks would be necessary to negotiate the difference. Obtaining a "right-of-way" for the 68 miles from the Border would be lengthy & expensive. The salt, however, can be mined for Lithium! Visit the salton sea on facebook and see what a lot of us are doing. All the best, John Mackey

<comment><USER13> If someone were to buy out the residents of Mexicali, Imperial, Indio, Brawley, El Centro, Coachella, etc. the area could nearly fill to the ancient extent of Blake Sea/Lake Cahuilla, and a canal would need no locks. Aside from the buyout compensation, actual construction of a canal suitable for international shipping vessels would probably be only about $5 billion.

As most people every remotely familiar with politics might guess, the technical challenges are not even remotely the most difficult obstacles to be overcome for such a project.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Considering the environmental impact of desalination and the power requirements, it doesn't seem like a proper way to end the drought. The answer is always going to be adequate planning and conservation, as well as improved infrastructure with higher-level planning. And legislators need to consider the true cost and benefit of catering to either the interests of farms and corporations or the people.

Living by the great lakes, I'm sure the people of California would lay a pipe across 1700 miles of the country if they could, but irresponsible usage of water is always going to drain whatever freshwater source is available. I do hope projects like these can help in some small way, though.

This also isn't the first time there has been a drought in any part of this country, obviously, and looking at weather in Texas recently, for example, you can see how quickly rain will come and go. There are large numbers of people in California. I'm sure that some of them must be smart enough to figure this out. Otherwise, we're looking at the beginning of another dustbowl.

The future of climate change is only going to make these problems more severe, and this obviously isn't a conservative solution going forward.

It's also interesting that the Santa Barbara desalination plant is mentioned. I lived in Santa Barabara recently (12 months ago) and I was unaware that there was a desalination plant there at the time during the drought. Recently I had heard that it was going to start up again, after never having ran more than 1 month in its lifespan. I would be surprised that that project is still behind its timeline, but then again, I wouldn't really be surprised.

(Edit: After 1 year, the city council voted to restart the plant last Tuesday.)

<comment><USER25> The water management situation in California is very complex. It really bugs me that desal is the most popular drum to beat, along with "California is a desert" and "California is irresponsible".

California's per capita water usage is roughly in the neighborhood of other western states ([http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/planetpolicy/posts/2014/10/di...](http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/planetpolicy/posts/2014/10/differences_in_water_use_across_states), scroll down), and although there's certainly room for improvement, it's really not bad considering the massive amount of agriculture in California.

Not mentioned in the article -- unless I missed it -- is that the Carlsbad plant is being built at a cost of around $950 million, and I wouldn't be surprised if it crossed the magic $1 billion line by the time it was operational. That's a huge amount of money for just one plant; it could take around 50 plants of that size to completely offset the effects of an extended drought, and there would still be significant costs in then moving all of that water into the central valley areas where it's needed for agriculture.

Everything that I've read recently is suggesting that what we're experiencing now is likely to be the new normal for California. This is because the Sierra snowpack has become nearly nonexistent in recent years, and it previously accounted for around 30 percent of California's total water storage, and it provided that water year-round. That's a 30 percent haircut right off the top.

Even when we get wet seasons, it's not expected that they will be _cold_ wet seasons, which means we'll see less snow in the mountains. And, since most of the rain that falls west of Sacramento gets funneled directly to the Bay, wet seasons won't even be helpful in the long term.

So what's happening is California is experiencing some of the effects of climate change. (I know HN at large doesn't believe AGW is real, but that's not really what this comment is about.) That means there's going to have to be a lot of adaptation, and not just in one area.

California's environmentalists -- and I usually count myself among them -- are going to have to get used to the idea of more dams and more reservoirs. California needs to make up for that missing 30% somehow. It also needs to start adopting water conservation the way that energy conservation has been seeing adoption; we should be seeing affordable greywater systems that move water from your bathroom sink into your toilet tank, for example, and residential water storage systems for landscape use should become more common.

We're going to have to figure out how to handle the agricultural industry. They're adapting too. They should get more help and encouragement, with access to more resources for water conservation. California is one of the most technologically advanced states in the US; it should be possible to dedicate some of that technological expertise to new forms of irrigation.

Storm runoff has to be handled better. It should be captured and treated and stored, diverted into marshes and other wetland areas.

Of all of these various things that need to be done, desalination is one of the most expensive per-gallon solutions.

<comment><USER19> Can you post some citations for your "new normal" assertion?

<comment><USER25> It's a fair question, but no, I haven't started a bookmark tag for those. I keep bookmark tags for all the other things that I read that I expect someone will want citations for during some internet debate, but I haven't started one for this particular subject yet, since it's relatively new.

I have however gone back through a lot of my reading history and dug out quite a bit of other links and supporting data. Interestingly, that specific phrase, "new normal", came up quite a bit, which is probably why I used it without thinking about it.

Finding supporting articles wasn't super difficult, but synthesizing them into something coherent will take way more effort than I'm willing to put into a 10-hour-old HN thread which probably nobody will ever read.

So I'll synthesize it and post it to my personal site in due time, and then post that to HN (where I expect it won't get any traction at all, but at least I'll have something to point to the next time someone wants citations).

<comment><USER19> Having studied some meteorology in college I haven't heard a coherent example of what changes people believe have happened to the weather patterns or why. If you want to reply here, I'll check back from time to time.

<comment><USER25> > _Having studied some meteorology in college_

Ah, in that case, here's my understanding, in brief. There are several components:

1\. California has had multi-hundred-year drought cycles in the past, according to tree ring data, and the last several hundred years have been unusually wet by comparison. It's possible that we're re-entering a long period of overall drought. (e.g. [http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/14/science/californias- histor...](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/14/science/californias-history-of- drought-repeats.html?_r=0))

2\. The current drought has been exacerbated primarily by a pattern of high and low pressure systems over the arctic, the polar vortex system. The newer "curvy" shape of the polar vortex is leading to systems which are keeping cold fronts from descending into the west coast.

3\. The current working theory is that the shape of the polar vortex is influenced mostly by the temperature of the arctic, so it's not likely to return to what we thought of as normal until the arctic starts to cool down again, which might not be happening anytime soon. (e.g. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_vortex#Climate_change](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_vortex#Climate_change) \-- sorry for Wikipedia link.)

4\. There has been a gradual decrease in snowfall over the Rockies and, I think, the Cascades region. (e.g. [https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/sotc/drought/201502](https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/sotc/drought/201502), [http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/weather/news/2011-06-10-clima...](http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/weather/news/2011-06-10-climate- change-global-warming-rockies-snow_n.htm)) A lab in Berkeley is responsible for measuring snow pack in the Sierra, and they have some data going back to the late 19th century. Unfortunately, all I can find are graphs of their data, not their actual data, so I have to contact them and see if they're willing to share that so I can see how the average is changing. My hunch -- although it's only a hunch at this point -- is that I'll find a slight overall decline in average snowfall, same as there is in the Rockies and Cascades. Seeing if this data is available is part of what's holding up a more comprehensive reply.

I have links to articles for most (all?) of this, but ... it's a little bit discombobulated still. I think it really needs to be presented more coherently to look very convincing. Part of the reason that I'm reluctant to start sharing links right away is that some of the sources I have at the moment are crappy little blogs -- thank you very much Google -- and I have to take the graphs they've ripped off and try to locate the primary sources they ripped them off from and then read them and make sure the context is correct and all that.

I'm not a meteorologist or climate scientist, it's likely there are areas that I'm oversimplifying or misunderstanding. But, I am an avid reader, and I haven't come across much material that's painting an optimistic view of California's climate in the near future.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> The only time these designs seem to work is when there's never any water (islands) or they have a complex cogeneration strategy.

For instance, ship the brine to someone who needs chill water, and then ship the warm brine off for salt extraction (apparently it's hard to profit off of sea salt if you can't get free BTU's from somebody, like a neighbor or the sun)

</comment><comment><USER27> I've often wondered why solar power are not used with the desalination plants? Perhaps that would help bring the power usage down to the same level as pumping the water in from the north of the state.

<comment><USER28> Solar power isn't free. you've got the costs of plant capital and maintenance. That said, desalination is the type of readily added or shed load which can tolerate surplus / deficit variable energy supply.

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> No. its not the answer.

The answer is keeping that water where it is for longer. this means that it'll evaporate where it lays. Which means more rain.

It also mean that the water table is higher for plants and animals.

a brilliant example are johads: [http://www.ecotippingpoints.org/our- stories/indepth/india-ra...](http://www.ecotippingpoints.org/our- stories/indepth/india-rajasthan-rainwater-harvest-restoration-groundwater- johad.html)

cheap, easy, quick and simple.

<comment><USER20> > this means that it'll evaporate where it lays. Which means more rain.

I'm no meteorologist or anything, so I honestly don't have any idea about this, but I can't help but wonder if that matters? I mean, if there's "more rain" overall, but it all happens somewhere else, that doesn't necessarily help California. Is there any connection between where water evaporates and where it ultimately falls as rain? That is, is it actually possible to cause more rain in a certain spot, but doing what you're talking about?

<comment><USER19> There are these things called winds generated by pressure systems that tend to move evaporated water around, so yes, you are right.</comment></comment></comment>