Want to Reform Policing? Bust Police Unions - <AUTHOR> https://reason.com/2020/07/17/want-to-reform-policing-bust-police-unions <comment><USER2> The same applies to every other industry where unions predominate.

<comment><USER3> Nope. Unions formed to protect employees from the abuses of management. The last 30-40 years of continuously reduced union power has resulted directly in reduced worker protections, employer liability, and a more or less complete freeze on compensation.

Police unions are very very different from any other union - to the extent that the most common interaction between the police unions and other unions is when police come in as violent strike breakers.

<comment><USER2> The evidence does not support this PR narrative propagated by unions and unionized workers.

The evidence suggests that the largest factor causing a slowdown in wage growth since the 1970s is a slowdown is labor productivity growth:

[https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/sources-of-real-wage- stag...](https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/sources-of-real-wage-stagnation/)

This slowdown can be attributed in part to the loss in economic efficiency and competitiveness brought about by society empowering unions with laws suppressing contract liberty.

With a few exceptions, like the Screen Actors Guild and the movie industry, industries where unions took over became less competitive and contracted if they failed to outsource. This extends from US Steel, to the US passenger rail service (which the "brotherhoods" bankrupted), to the Big Three US automakers.

With respect to the last point: Detroit used to be the US city with the highest per capita income. Today it is completely dilapidated. That is the real legacy of the anti-competitive unions and the stranglehoods labor laws gave them over capitalist enterprise.

The new successes of American industry and sources of US export growth: Tesla and Amazon, are next on the chopping block for the social activists pushing for unionization with the labor union movement's victimhood culture narratives.

The monopolization of a workforce by a union is detrimental to efficiency/quality and the accountability of workers in every endeavor/industry, not just policing.

Here is evidence of the detrimental effect of teachers unions on education:

[https://academic.oup.com/qje/article- abstract/111/3/671/1839...](https://academic.oup.com/qje/article- abstract/111/3/671/1839935)

>>Police unions are very very different from any other union - to the extent that the most common interaction between the police unions and other unions is when police come in as violent strike breakers.

Source?

Police were NOT unionized in the 19th and early 20th century, before unions got the backing of government force (labor laws), when they had to resort to illegal violence, like picket lines that were enforced with physical assault, to shakedown employers.

Since the unions' suppression of contract liberty got government backing, strikes involving illegal violence have become unnecessary for the unions to engage in, and violent clashes between unions and police have all but disappeared.</comment></comment></comment>


Two dead after YouTube conspiracy video claims drinking bleach cures autism - <AUTHOR> https://www.businessinsider.com/mms-jim-humble-bleach-autism-cure-youtube-2019-5 <comment><USER2> That was an extremely difficult read.

Especially part with the moderators of these forums encouraging the parents to up the dosage of poison in response to photos of their children's medical issues brought on after they started 'treatment'.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> The Guardian published a more detailed backgrounder on this quackery and some of the people behind it [0].

[0] [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/18/bleach- miracle...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/18/bleach-miracle-cure- uganda-us-pastor-robert-baldwin-sam-little)

</comment><comment><USER3> Is there a reason why this was flagged?

I'm a bit incredulous here, because topics discussing how YouTube censors people (even tangentially) can spark a massive discussion which isn't flagged and buried, but ones about the harms of some conspiracies spread on YouTube seem to be buried immediately.

If HN wants to really be a site that advocates for intellectual curiosity and sunlight being the best disinfectant, then harmful and anti-scientific beliefs should be exposed, discussed and challenged.

<comment><USER4> Users flagged it, no doubt because it doesn't gratify intellectual curiosity, which makes it off topic for HN. See [https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html).

Battling "harmful and anti-scientific beliefs" may be an important thing to do, but it isn't about curiosity, and frankly it brings out shallow comments and ugly sentiments in internet forums.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> If a girl can go to jail for texting her depressed boyfriend encouragement to commit suicide, why can't we throw these fraudsters in jail for manipulating stupid people?

<comment><USER6> So how do politicans, do not deserve the same (in case they do the same)? Or when Mark Zuckerberg manipulates the mood of fb users? Where is the line?

<comment><USER7> I don't know, but somehow I think deliberately tricking people into doing things that directly cause physical harm to themselves falls on the illegal side of that line.

<comment><USER6> I'm quite sure the girl was not deliberately wanting his ex to die. The "I'll kill myself if you leave me" kind of emotional blackmailing is just too common among hurt exes.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Oh, this is Miracle Mineral Solution. I've heard of this disgusting quackery for years and years. I'm surprised YouTube is getting around to this just now. They need to read more Respectful Insolence at the Goog.

<comment><USER8> There's also a conspiracy theory going around that drinking Hydrogen Peroxide is healthy for the body. Uggghhh...

People who fail at basic chemistry and biology need to shut the hell up before people die. Its called "Food Grade Hydrogen Peroxide" because you use it to clean food. Not because you can drink it.

Hydrogen Peroxide is so reactive that it will (eventually) turn into water. the H2O2... the extra "O"... will bubble away under natural conditions.

\</comment></comment><comment>--

Anyway, I should be surprised that people are literally drinking bleach. But... I'm not... because I'm still jaded from learning about the H2O2 guys. In fact, Hydrogen Peroxide was historically considered a bleach.

</comment><comment><USER9> Whats the Darwin Award for taking other people out of the gene pool?

Murder 1 maybe?

</comment><comment><USER10> Well if you can convince people that the earth is flat, a bleach miracle shouldn't be hard right?

</comment><comment><USER11> So what is the business model here? Is this stuff sold?

</comment><comment><USER12> Why did this get flagged?

</comment><comment><USER13> [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rope_worms](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rope_worms)

This is just too funny to be true.

<comment><USER14> Instead of funny, your link provided the answer to a previous post that asked how MMS made money and what their motivation may be.

"These 'ropeworms' are often discussed, with images shared and claimed as evidence of successful detoxing, on autism forums and Facebook groups, where bleach enemas (for example MMS) are falsely claimed to cure autism.[6] In one group, 8500 members have allegedly been charged $60 to join, half a million dollars combined, leading to questioning of the leaders' intentions."

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Well, YouTube can't really stop people from being stupid.

<comment><USER16> Of course they can't, but they conceivably could reduce the spread of material that stupid people are going to use to hurt themselves (or their kids).

<comment><USER15> You mean more censorship

<comment><USER16> Ugh, I am so tired of people making this argument every single time something horrible happens and people suggest, you know, DOING something about it.

First off, they don't have to censor, they could just stop recommending these videos, and that would help a lot.

Second, if you seriously can't see why a for-profit corporation restricting content that literally leads to children being poisoned and dying isn't anywhere near Orwellian, then I am afraid that we have nothing further to discuss.

<comment><USER17> Ugh I'm so sick of people ignoring the brainwashing of the populace via media control</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Tog: A New, Non-Intrusive Way To Social Network-ify Your Rails Apps - <AUTHOR> http://www.toghq.com/ <comment><USER2> The swite giwes a weally nice overwiew of twog...

( <http://i33.tinypic.com/etb1xh.jpg> )

<comment><USER3> Thanks for comment the typo.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> i like the approach; intridea's socialspring has the same architecture</comment>


Google Releases Penguin 3.0 - <AUTHOR> http://searchengineland.com/google-releases-first-penguin-update-year-206169

<comment><AUTHOR> This is interesting:

Penguin 1.0 on April 24, 2012 (impacting ~3.1% of queries)

Penguin 1.1 on May 26, 2012 (impacting less than 0.1%)

Penguin 1.2 on October 5, 2012 (impacting ~0.3% of queries)

Penguin 2.0 on May 22, 2013 (impacting 2.3% of queries)

Penguin 2.1 on Oct. 4, 2013 (impacting around 1% of queries)

Penguin 3.0 on October 17, 2014 (impact not yet released

So entire year worth of algorithmic improvements have been just impacting ~3% of queries? Could this be a great slow down in improvements in search?</comment>


Tapestry for Nonbelievers - <AUTHOR> http://www.infoq.com/articles/tapestry5-intro <comment><USER2> Tapestry is hands-down the worst framework I've ever used. It destroys your ability to reason about your code, because what you write looks like java but no longer follows java semantics (Want to initialize your page objects? You can't, you're expected to null-check your fields and reinitialize them every time you want to access them. Want to pass a parameter into a page you're linking to? Put an annotated field in your page that's typed to the other page, and call a magically-named method on it. I wish I was making this up). And it forces you to spread your flow logic between your pages and your templates; standard practice for repeater components is to have the logic for displaying the repeated component read the data it needs from a field on the outer component object, _which is populated by the loop in the template_. To get any sense of where data is coming from you have to flick back and forth between two files (actually usually more like six, because when you have multiple components on a page they're not isolated from each other in any way).

If you want a good web framework for Java, try Wicket. Components are real objects written in standard java, and proper separation between logic and presentation is enforced (because wicket markup files can't contain any logic).

<comment><USER3> My first ever programming job was a Tapestry 3 project. I had just finished computer school and had a strong understanding of Java but no field experience. We were using Tapestry and Cayenne (an ORM) and this whole, molasses-slow catastophe in the making, was my first introduction to the life of a professional coder. I still have strong paranoia and anxiety about any magical behaviour. But then the project went from v3 to v4 and _everything_ broke. Zero backwards compatibility. Well - a bit dramatic. Nothing could be _trusted_ to work properly.

Tapestry is a reimagined WebObjects framework, and the company I worked for originally specialised in these systems, so it was natural for them to pick Tapestry. I also did a lot of translating/transplanting code from a WebObjects system to a Tapestry 4 system and everything the parent says was true for me. Work on a single component is spread across a minimum of three files, sometimes four, and there is a _lot_ of magic which makes debugging (something you'll have to do a lot) a nightmare. I suspect Tap5 is incompatible and a wholly different beast to Tap4, but to this day I never want to work on a Java based web framework. Give me a pile of rotten php spaghetti any day of the week.

That said, I'm loving Clojure and might investigate Noir at some point in the future.

<comment><USER2> >I suspect Tap5 is incompatible and a wholly different beast to Tap4, but to this day I never want to work on a Java based web framework. Give me a pile of rotten php spaghetti any day of the week.

I might be getting a bit too evangelical here, but Wicket will change that. It actually uses the Java type system the way it's meant to be used (it's the only library I've ever seen that uses final classes and final methods effectively), and as a result its backwards-compatibility record is superb. It's so good that when writing wicket I don't even miss python.</comment></comment></comment>


Man Survives Steve Ballmer's Flying Chair To Build '21st Century Linux' - <AUTHOR> http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2011/11/cloud-foundry/all/1

<comment><USER2> This is mostly and ad for cloudfoundry. Which is fine, because I didn't know about the service, and now my curiosity is piqued.

</comment><comment><USER3> 99.9th percentile programmer...i dont know, i have my doubts about that

<comment><USER4> Why? Few people build something as widely deployed as Windows. It may be "the Devil" but his contribution is respectable.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> this article is full of lies. thats all i can say.</comment>


Show HN: Like Candy Japan, but for Japanese Tea – Tomotcha.com - <AUTHOR>

I've been sending green tea from Japan to a friend in France for a while, so we decided to give a shot at monetizing this very simple idea. The business model is quite evidently derived from Candy Japan (candyjapan.com).
For now the concept is really really simple: I just pick the best teas I can find, and ship them. Last month it was a Kabusecha from the Kyoto prefecture; next weekend I'll be travelling to Kagoshima to find a great tea for next month shipment.
Ultimately we'd like to offer a bit more choice: amount, organic-only, etc. Feedback and inputs are very much appreciated! <comment><AUTHOR> Tomotcha url in a clickable fashion: [https://tomotcha.com](https://tomotcha.com)

</comment><comment><USER2> I really like this idea and surprised that your friend in France couldn't find Japanese tea there. Would you consider sending tea from other also very highly esteemed tea growing regions (Taiwan)?

<comment><AUTHOR> You can definitely find Japanese tea in France (at least in Paris). But it's usually quite expensive and without much variety: mostly Sencha like you would find in any Japanese supermarket, at 4 times the price.

I love Taiwanese tea, but so far I'd rather stay focused on Japanese tea since it is very convenient for me to search for (I live in Osaka). I hope to eventually be able to expand to other Asian countries!

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Love this idea. Going to seriously consider subscribing.

<comment><AUTHOR> :)

Let me know if there is a roadblock, or anything I could do to help you make the leap!

<comment><USER3> Well, I drink coffee 50% of the time. Maybe an introductory $15/month mini subscription? If the tea is as good as it looks, maybe I could switch over to 75% tea. I happen to be drinking some great genmaicha right now. :) totemo oishii desu! Or maybe a referral program. Like discount for getting new subscribers?

<comment><AUTHOR> genmaicha ha oishii deshou!

$15/month for ~50 grams of tea per month (the normal subscription is ~100g per month), let's call it the HN subscription. Works for me!

You can subscribe using the normal form, just drop us an email with your name/address so that I can identify you and switch you to the HN subscription rather than the normal one.

This offer is of course valid for everyone reading this thread!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> How many subscribers do you have so far? I think I'm going to just go for it and try for a month. :)

<comment><AUTHOR> Excluding friends and family, we had one paying customer (in Germany) for the last shipment.

Given that we had exactly 36 visitors from this comment a month ago ([https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8850776](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8850776)), I would say the conversion rate so far is rather good. Of course a "conversion rate" is rather hard to calculate with any kind of accuracy with such a small sample size.</comment></comment>


Health care professionals are being punished for protecting themselves, and us - <AUTHOR> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/01/opinion/coronavirus-doctors-protective-equipment.html <comment><USER2> They should report these unsafe working conditions to OSHA. Hospitals are required to have a plan for this, and certain actions are specifically called out as potentially riskier. Seems like if you've notified the administration of the risk, and notified OSHA you can stop work until the dangerous work environment is resolved. Findlaw and OHSA article on respiratory programs below.

Under federal and state laws, employers must provide a safe workplace. If unsafe working conditions are present, a worker may report the violation to the employer, to the federal and/or state Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA), and in some cases, the worker may refuse to work. The following is a summary of OSHA protection and guidelines for dealing with dangerous conditions in the workplace. What to Do When a Safety Hazard Poses an Imminent Danger When unsafe working conditions place the life of a worker in imminent danger, the worker should report the dangerous condition to OSHA. The worker also has the right to refuse to work if: There is a reasonable and good faith belief that a condition in the workplace poses an immediate and substantial risk of serious physical injury or death;

[https://employment.findlaw.com/workplace- safety/protecting-y...](https://employment.findlaw.com/workplace- safety/protecting-yourself-from-unsafe-working- conditions.html?fbclid=IwAR22pvPZSjwzCpvCkm7HxUBsXHL- hJF6ZRFcJwFj2kesSYSk6VxMQ3ec04U)

[https://www.osha.gov/Publications/OSHA3767.pdf?fbclid=IwAR0r...](https://www.osha.gov/Publications/OSHA3767.pdf?fbclid=IwAR0rXmHDlmK496PfiSZgNaQMjzKz8-JcErghS2QB6HKNubTPPMiElrKKx8I)</comment>


Historical Snapshot: Boeing 747 Commercial Transport/YAL-1 - <AUTHOR> http://www.boeing.com/history/products/747.page <comment><USER2> Boeing are very good archivists. Anyone visiting or in the Seattle area should make some time to visit the History of Flight museum at Boeing Field, it's got amazing depth of history in airplane mfg., as well as famous airplanes from the past through today to walk through.

</comment><comment><USER3> Just compare the 747's cockpit with 787:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Iran_Air_Boeing_747-200_c...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Iran_Air_Boeing_747-200_cockpit_Sharifi.jpg)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_787_Dreamliner#/media/F...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_787_Dreamliner#/media/File:Boeing_787-8_N787BA_cockpit.jpg)

Everything is analog! 747 looks like a nightmare to learn!

<comment><USER4> As a low-time (just shy of 250 total hours) private pilot, I much prefer all- analog, as I personally find it much easier to take in information in a quick scan. PP and IFR instruction was both done with "glass cockpit" aircraft, and while Garmin's avionics are quite nice -- and were one of the reasons I took instruction where I did, I found that I like the all-analog setups better.

This has a side benefit as well -- the "glass cockpit" planes are much more in demand at the local flying clubs, while I can almost always get an older 172 or 182 with zero advanced notice, and they're cheaper too.

I won't opine about reliability or anything else; I don't have enough experience. I just know which I find easier to process.

<comment><USER5> A gauge with a needle beats a number on a screen any day because you can just do a quick sweep and see where it is like you said. For critical warnings dedicated lights that are not illuminated any other time are still best. The glass cockpit has an advantage in the latter category since it can draw your attention to any particular numerical value or virtual gauge that is anomalous.

<comment><USER4> That's a good point about the glass cockpit's ability to emphasize any particular value/reading. I hadn't thought about that one, so thanks for bringing it up.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> It's worth checking out Waddell's Wagon.

[https://secure.boeingimages.com/Assets/V2/jrZYYwCXohU1rDmk4e...](https://email@example.com@UwTkDP/qPV5QLENkybIp4Fq/@XWZq6l3x@8MLloF/BI221743.jpg)

</comment><comment><USER7> I wonder how many ping pong balls would fit.</comment>


France: Public support for strict lockdown drops below 50% - <AUTHOR> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/26/france-public-support-for-strict-coronavirus-lockdown-drops-below-50-percent <comment><USER2> American perspective here: I've noticed in the last 3 to 5 days a pretty sharp decline in public opinion on lockdown, regardless of case counts and best principles.

<comment><USER3> Yeah I mean people are tired of being locked in all day, it might not be prudent behavior but it makes sense.

And I agree, people I know are going nuts.</comment></comment>


So You Want to Be a Compiler Wizard - <AUTHOR> http://belkadan.com/blog/2016/05/So-You-Want-To-Be-A-Compiler-Wizard/ <comment><USER2> I left this comment on the author's page too, but I've copied it to HN as well:

I'd also suggest learning and writing your own Forth. The Forth language is very simple to implement, simpler even than Lisp by a long ways, I'd say. If you know how to make a stack, (well two stacks), then you can make your own Forth Interpreter. Going from the Interpreter to the compiler is also easier than in other languages.

There is not really much syntax to speak of, and most of the languages's features, even the comments, can be implemented in the language itself. Of course for speed reasons you'd probably want to put the langauge forms into highly optimized assembly forms or something, but you don't have to do that right away.

There also isn't much of a runtime system to implement at all. With Lisp you'll have to write a garbage collector, with Forth, you just need to be able to allocate a slab of memory from the OS, maintain the stacks, and the word (like a function in another language) and variable dictionaries. Oh, and including a copy of the compiler to run in interactive mode, but you'd need to do that in Lisp too.

Also, writing a Forth compiler lets you jump right into advanced optimizations. Really even just aggressive inlining and basic optimizations will get you a huge speed increase, which is a great motivational boost. The Reverse Polish Notation style stack form of the language is great for matching optimization patterns with as-is. I know SSA is pretty much THE technique to use for register based languages, but you can get great results from Forth by optimizing as is instead of converting to SSA.

I really think Forth is a great language to learn compilers with. It really lets you skip ahead to the interesting parts of compilers, since the language doesn't require complicated parsers, or runtime systems.

<comment><USER3> I disagree. Forth is cute and you'll learn some stuff, but you won't become a compiler wizard. You _need_ to learn how to do parsers and run-time systems and all the rest.

Besides, it's fun!

<comment><USER2> I see what you're saying, but respectfully I disagree. The importance of parsers and run-time systems in compilers really depends on the language you are compiling. There's a big spectrum there.

For runtime systems, on one hand you have languages where they are very important, such as runtime garbage collectors in Lisp, Java, and similar languages, Prolog's runtime logic backtracking, runtime exception support for C++ but no garbage collection, down to languages like C with no garbage collection and minimal runtime. Forth is certainly on the lower end of the compiler runtime implementation spectrum.

For parsing, there's a similar spectrum. There's languages with hideously complicated grammars, like C++, less complex ones like Lisp, and probably again on the simplest end of the spectrum is Forth.

So the requirement of needing to learn to write complex parsers and runtime systems is dependant on the language. I'd certainly classify a C compiler author as a "wizard" even though they wouldn't have to write a garbage collector for their C compiler, and a Lisp compiler author as a "wizard" even though their parser is much less difficult to create than a C++ language parser.

Of course, it's not like wizard is an exact term or anything. If you're saying a "compiler wizard" should be able to understand how to implement any language, then of course you need to have in-depth knowledge of parsers and run-time systems. Me personally, I'd say if you can write a compiler for any language you're somewhere on the compiler magician spectrum. Maybe not full wizard, but at least a compiler warlock or enchanter or something (this is getting silly now, I don't really want to argue about the semantics of the term wizard applied to compilers).

<comment><USER4> I'm far from a Forth wizard, but I've often heard it compared to a flexible assembly language for a stack machine. It seems like it could be the foundation for a visual programming language based on linking word blocks end- to-end, where you could zoom into user-defined words to get to the definition, etc. The simplicity of the language would/could prevent it degenerating into a tangled web of connections as when most languages are visualized.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment> UK-AL Much more useful to learn about constructing NFA/DFA automatons from 'pure' regular expressions, then say just knowing regular expression syntax off by art. This is basically gets you to understand regular grammar, probably the easiest formal grammar to understand. If you understand state machines, you know what you know what regular grammars are capable of.

Where all the different types of parsing methods? Recursive Descent, LL Parsers, LR Parsers, LALR parser. Being able to understand production rules? Chomsky hierarchy of the formal grammars?

Then converting that into AST -> Optimization(so much stuff here) -> Code emitter.

<comment><USER5> Coursera/Stanford Online's compilers course covers all this.

[https://class.coursera.org/compilers/](https://class.coursera.org/compilers/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> This is... rather awful. I'd suggest taking a look at the reading list here instead:

[http://c9x.me/compile/bib/](http://c9x.me/compile/bib/)

This article goes through a number of unrelated exercises, mentions a few hello-world level introductions, and then skips to a more or less unrelated introduction to open source, with a rather bizarre criticism of people who contribute to open source without getting paid for it.

If it was written for 'becoming a C wizard', I would imagine that it would read something along the lines of:

       - Say 'hello' a few times
       - Write some words on paper
       - type 'print "hello"' into a python prompt
       - Work through the "hello world" program in K&R
       - You're a terrible person if you learn C without getting paid.

<comment><USER7> Yes,

In fact, it's even worse than that. You can become one kind of "C wizard" just by writing a bunch of programs since a lot of programming is fairly clear once someone understands function calls and for-loops.

But understand compiler construction at a reasonable level requires some specific set of skills that don't come from just messing around.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> These are definitely some interesting ideas on breaking into a new discipline.

The little projects list is great and it's definitely good motivation to start improving skills.

One problem I have with this article though, is not with the idea of becoming a wizard at something, which is a great way at looking at things, but rather the idea of joining a special group.

Personally, I have a bit of an issue with using LLVM to get started. Maybe this isn't fair because I have literally no experience with LLVM outside of clang, but I think part of the idea of becoming a "wizard" means starting from scratch. Obviously, it's not helpful to point someone in the direction of impossible tasks to get them _motivated_ , but the direction this heads quickly turns toward not becoming a leading independent thinker but becoming a mindless bug fixer on another project. I don't think you can learn to write compilers by fixing other people's bugs.

It turns to: solving bugs, getting involved in open source, jumping on _someone else 's_ projects, and most of all projects where others are best suited to gain from the developments. It reminds me of the flowchart "Should I work for free?" which programmers should really pay attention to.

It's great to work with others, to collaborate, and to appreciate and understand other's technology; however, computer science and programming are rather miraculous in the amount of distance an individual can travel on their own, and being forced to jump on a bandwagon or join a community seems to be demeaning in the end.

<comment><USER9> What are you suggesting then? Learning about how compilers work with no exposure to any existing compilers?

<comment><USER8> I think it's great to look at existing compilers, but probably better to look at past compilers. I stumbled upon the first edition of cc the other day: [https://github.com/mortdeus/legacy-cc](https://github.com/mortdeus/legacy-cc) It's also helpful to look at the overall structure of something like LLVM or to study the internals.

What seems totally useless, though, is to fix bugs! Compiler writing is a very high level field. Fixing bugs on a database server provides equal experience to fixing bugs on a compiler to compiler writing: which is being able to write bug-free code in the given language. So it seems the author is trying to advertise for free labor.

Also, in the first example

        Learn regular expressions. This isn't ... how real compilers work, but regular expressions...

This is a good example of why practical experience isn't as valuable as knowledge, and that's because the class of regular languages are crucial to compiler writing! So yes, that is how they work, especially for parts and passes of tokenization and parsing.

The best advice, which isn't given here, is to read! There are many, many great resources on all of the ins-and-outs of front end, backend, optimization and all the other facets of compiler writing, and there are very few new ideas. Most of the research dates from the 60's and 70's. It's better to be well read on compilers than to have actually written one, depending on the circumstance.

Also, many people always ask for resources on compiler writing, but if you spend even a little time looking for books you will find tons.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> > Write snprintf in C

Another application of the `snprintf` function is `PyArg_ParseTuple` from CPython. [0] It's not exactly printing formatted output but parsing the args from the `va_list` based on the format. You pass it pointers and it assigns values to the pointers.

[0] [https://docs.python.org/2/c-api/arg.html#c.PyArg_ParseTuple](https://docs.python.org/2/c-api/arg.html#c.PyArg_ParseTuple)

<comment><USER11> > Write snprintf in assembly

See the implementation of _interpolate_ in my Assembly-like language: [http://akkartik.github.io/mu/html/070text.mu.html](http://akkartik.github.io/mu/html/070text.mu.html) (search for 'interpolate'. There's also unit tests: the scenarios after the definition)

More details: [http://akkartik.name/post/mu](http://akkartik.name/post/mu)

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Whenever compilers come up, this Steve Yegge article comes to mind -> [http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2007/06/rich-programmer- food...](http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2007/06/rich-programmer-food.html) that starts: "Gentle, yet insistent executive summary: If you don't know how compilers work, then you don't know how computers work. If you're not 100% sure whether you know how compilers work, then you don't know how they work."

<comment><USER7> _Gentle, yet insistent executive summary: If you don 't know how compilers work, then you don't know how computers work. If you're not 100% sure whether you know how compilers work, then you don't know how they work._

As opaque and arrogant as that sounds, the statement is actually fairly accurate.

The way I'd try to put nicely is that compiler construction involves some conceptual barriers that make constructing an interpreter or compiler different than other programs, even other complex programs.

The main difference is that a programming language is an abstract object on a different logical level than, say, a real world object.

I think the best way to understand this is constructing a recursive descent parser. Doing requires one to transform the language you parsing and so get an idea of abstract languages. A lot of the advice people gives, such as using regular expressions, isn't a way to get a complete picture of what's happening in the parser or compiler construction process.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> This was an ok article before it started ranting on about privilege and bias and codes of conducts for projects. I lost interest then.

<comment><USER14> That wasn't ranting, it was cogent and well-structured and made good points. If you disagree with those points, say so, but don't diminish it by calling it a rant.

I think those points are extremely relevant for an article targeted at people trying to get involved in open source. The for-pay vs. free-time divide is a fundamental problem with using open source work as an "in" to the industry, and despite being scoff-worthy to some people, it's helpful for people coming into this with fresh eyes (ie. the target audience of the article) to be given some context.

<comment><USER8> It sounds like the author is being categorically dismissive of a group of people that I can't even match. Is he against people with salaries developing software? Is he against people who aren't paid from writing software? Should people who aren't paid be paid and those employed be fired? Should whites pursue primarily agrarian careers so that non-whites can pick up technology- minded hobbies in order to transition to lucrative careers? The start and end point of his discussion in that paragraph form a very narrow loop which defies logic.

\--

On privilege:

I completely disagree with the necessity of being engaged in a community to be a compiler developer or to learn any CS domain.

But stating that free time is a privilege is a bit absurd. You could be a 23-hour a day gardener and still write a compiler. It's not as if there's a time limit.

Dividing by gender is ridiculous---the first computer programmer was a woman.

All that it takes to become a compiler enthusiast is the understanding of languages and computers. Having a pencil and paper is a plus.

Alan Turing was gay but it didn't prevent him from inventing a form of universal computer.

People should be celebrated for their differences, not admonished for not having enough outlying characteristics.

Remember, the first programmers had neither computers nor compilers, and the first compiler writers had punch cards, so who exactly is privileged?

<comment><USER15> He's suggesting that for a lot of people getting involved in open source it is a means to an end. Whether that is getting a job in a new field, increasing exposure or experience, etc... Usually that end is something monetary or status related. What he is then saying is that some parts of the population are more privileged than others when it comes to the free time and resources needed to achieve that. It's not necessarily just that they have the resources now, but that they may have had them in the past too (upbringing, access to education, encouragement, etc).

So the discussion of privilege shouldn't necessarily be seen as a negative force trying to tear down white men, but should inform our decision making when we take other people's hardships into account. As a white male myself I understand that I have had better opportunities than a large part of the population. I'd rather take that into account and try to improve the fairness in society, than to look away from it. What to actually do about it is another matter... But acknowledging that it's a problem is the first step.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> List seems inadequate. I guess it's enough to get you going working on compilers, but there's not much wizardly on that list.

Read papers. Learn about data-flow analysis and optimization. Learn code generation (instruction selection, register allocation, instruction scheduling). Learn about interprocedural data-flow analysis. Learn/build a garbage collector or 2. Parallelization, vectorization, type analysis. Write an optimizer for Go. Write papers or your own.

<comment><USER8> I'm not sure that the author cares very much about CPU registers.

<comment><USER3> Sure he does... Anyone advocating for assembly language necessarily cares about registers.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> something about parsing text and generating something meaningful from it is just super gratifying; doesn't even have to be a full blown compiler.

Some of most enjoyable programming experiences I have had were working on trivial parsing + transformation; e.g. a css beautifier, html beautifier, and whatever the hell this is [https://github.com/jdc0589/jtranslate](https://github.com/jdc0589/jtranslate) (I wrote it in college, I still have no idea what I meant its purpose to be)

I've done a couple things closer to full blown compilers (C-- compiler, hand written pascal subset compiler + one using a parser generator for the same language subset). As fun as those were, the simpler stuff was more enjoyable for me.

<comment><USER17> I 100% agree with this. Making a computer understand a domain of text and manipulate it in interesting ways is amazing. Similar is web crawlers.

It feels like magic when the product works.

<comment><USER16> hah, we have similar preferences for what we consider "fun". The last per project I worked on was basically the same as [https://www.kimonolabs.com/](https://www.kimonolabs.com/), but with a different paradigm for writing crawlers/parsers (I hate wysiwyg/point+click interfaces for shit like this). THey launched their product when I was taking a break from mine, and implemented most of my feature set though :(

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> I've got a collection of resources on compilers and interpreters:

[https://github.com/melling/ComputerLanguages/blob/master/com...](https://github.com/melling/ComputerLanguages/blob/master/compilers.org)

<comment><USER19> Excellent resource, thank you!

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> If anyone wants to get involved with an open source Ruby JIT compiler you can join us in #jruby or [https://gitter.im/jruby/jruby](https://gitter.im/jruby/jruby). Happy to tutor beginners.

</comment><comment><USER20> An article I wrote on the same subject: [https://www.digitalmars.com/articles/b89.html](https://www.digitalmars.com/articles/b89.html)

<comment><USER6> You may want to update your certificates -- Chrome complains when I try to view the page.

<comment><USER20> Yeah, I need to do that. For the moment, use this instead: [http://www.digitalmars.com/articles/b89.html](http://www.digitalmars.com/articles/b89.html)</comment></comment></comment>


Cheese exposed to hip-hop tastes better, finds Swiss experiment - T-A https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/sonochemistry_cheese-exposed-to-hip-hop-tastes-better--finds-swiss-experiment/44824418 <comment><AUTHOR> Wow! Yesterday we learned about what happens when dead alligators are dropped to the sea floor of the abyssal plane (a giant isopod smorgasbord), and today we learn about cheese exposed to hip hop. The 2019 IgNobel competition is really heating up.

</comment><comment><USER2> Shows how unreliable experiments like this are. Needs some Bayesian analysis.

</comment><comment><USER3> My intuition is that this is a fluke that will fail to replicate.

If it however, _does_ replicate, consistently, that opens up a bunch of questions. Just _how_ does hip-hop make cheese sound better?

<comment><USER4> No worries about that, they didn't even plicate it to begin with. They exposed 8 wheels of cheese to 8 different types of music. This study was absolutely guaranteed to find that _one_ of them "tastes better", given that if you tasted 8 wheels of cheese without the music, one of them would have tasted the best.

<comment><USER5> There was a control cheese, at least.

<comment><USER4> True, so they could have also determined "Music makes your cheese taste worse".

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> This brings a whole new meaning to culturing cheese.

<comment><USER7> Would the cheese taste even better if you let the cheese stay at art museums? Wait for part 2 of the experiment where we find what art museum makes cheese taste the best!

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Try this thought experiment: play eight songs from different genres of music, flipping a coin 5 times for each song. Whichever song had the most heads must make you more likely to flip heads.

How is this study different from that?

<comment><USER9> It is not. If they had 10 cheeses exposed to hip-hop, 10 to classical, 10 controls, etc., and the differences in rating where statistically significant they would be onto something. But per the study factsheet, they used just one box per music type so it is exactly as you say, one box just tasted better but it could be for any number of reasons: [https://hkbgehtanland.ch/assets/pdf/20181129_hkb_cheese- in-s...](https://hkbgehtanland.ch/assets/pdf/20181129_hkb_cheese-in-surround- sound_factsheet.pdf)

<comment><USER10> I feel like this experiment, like Swiss cheese, is filled with holes.

<comment><USER11> Wow that joke was very cheesy

<comment><USER2> I dunno, I thought it was pretty gouda

<comment> matt-snider Works as long as you're not one of those people who pronounce it "gao-da"

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Very disappointed that the winning genre wasn't cheese.

Some S Club 7 will make your Brie far better.

</comment><comment><USER13> "I gotta stack cheese. _I gotta stack cheese!_ "

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TRhoE5Cf3k](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TRhoE5Cf3k)

Some may recognize this song from its use in an Avis commercial a few years ago:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPw35jQUGt8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPw35jQUGt8)

</comment><comment><USER14> Resonant frequency of the holes? /S

<comment><USER15> Don't know why you added the /s tag, its as good a theory as any other.

And will be proved when the experiment is repeated (with different hole structure), and cheese is found to taste better when exposed to some other music genre.

Can I borrow your /s tag?

<comment><USER14> IPR registration pending... (/s)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Is this a satire, or is there something about low frequency audio that physically changes the cheese?

<comment><USER17> It's not satire nor a real experiment. There is no evidence to take from this. The box the cheese was placed in was a variable as well, so there's no conclusions to take here.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> Surely the article is midtoane when it used the unit kHz for the frequencies, the sine waves used were

> Low frequency: 25kHz

> Medium frequency: 200kHz

> High frequency: 1000 kHz

All of which are very high and well above the range of human hearing, so I think the units should be Hz instead.

Do we have a paper source for this?

<comment><USER19> Some young people may just reach that "low" range and be able to catch the unpleasant existence of a 25kHz sound source :) I was able to hear it when I was circa 13yo IIRC. But yeah, for an adult, that would be truly exceptional.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> How large of a sample population did they use in their blind tasting, I can't find the original publication source, but I imagine a whole cheese wheel could be cut into quite a lot of little chunks.

<comment><USER8> I don't think the sample population is the largest issue here. The issue is that they didn't control for _any_ other factors.

It's entirely likely that the hip-hop cheese _was_ better, but for reasons completely unrelated to the music. Without replication this is extremely likely to be random chance.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> But how long did they expose it to Roquefort?

</comment><comment><USER22> I smell an IgNobel Prize in the offing... or is that just the Jay-Z-infused limburger?

</comment><comment><USER23> Is it a coincidence that Jay-Z is always going on about cheddar and spending cheese?

</comment><comment><USER24> I am more curious how they managed to output a 1000 kHz tone through those speakers.

</comment><comment><USER25> Maybe it was the Electric Relaxation that did it

</comment><comment><USER26> Sounds like a way to promote something.

<comment><USER27> Critical thinking?

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> It's because of the phat content.

</comment><comment><USER29> Is this valuable time for researchers

</comment><comment><USER30> I am disappointed that the result was not titled Moo Bitch Get Out Da Whey.

Still, an amusing art project. And I actually would be kind of interested in seeing it done as an actual experiment. Sound waves have a significant effect on plant growth, after all.

[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S209531191...](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S209531191360492X)</comment>


The best way to predict the future is to prevent it - <AUTHOR> http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/11/03/the-best-way-to-predict-the-future-is-to-prevent-it/

<comment><USER2> Interestingly this is an approach some really serious SF writers have taken to build what they considered to be minimally plausible future histories:

Back in the '70s Jerry Pournelle did this literally for his Codominion series: the US and the USSR agreed to rule the world together and one of the corollaries was suppressing science and technological development. Not only did that fit _very_ well into the Zeitgeist of the '70s, it allowed him to write about a future that wasn't much advanced from what he could easily foresee. Later this was continued by a post-fall of the first interstellar empire series of stories, which again allowed for limitations in advancement. At least one other series of his also uses this trick in one way or another.

Vernor Vinge had a real problem writing SF after coining "the Singularity" (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity>) and addressed that in various ways:

In _The Peace War_ the rulers of the world through a technological breakthrough they ruthlessly exploit of course suppress or co-opt the development of science and technology they view as potentially threatening.

In _Marooned in Realtime_ the vast bulk of humanity has transcended and is gone from Earth and the action is with small groups of people who were suspended in time prior to this. One of them was fairly close to when the Singularity happened....

In the "Deep" series (evidently formally called "Zones of Thought") the galaxy is roughly divided into zones starting at the center; the ones of interest are _The Slow Zone_ where FTL and AI are impossible, an outer zone where societies can transcend through a Singularity, and in _A Fire Upon the Deep_ the action is almost entirely in _The Beyond_ that's in-between.

</comment><comment><USER2> Maybe it's not quite so bad; here's the beginning of one of the more interesting comments ([http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/11/03/the-best-way- to-pre...](http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/11/03/the-best-way-to-predict- the-future-is-to-prevent-it/#comment-222551)):

" _Dave Brown says

"JP, If you take the long view I'd argue that there is an equivalent to Moore's Law in software. This law is that each year it becomes slightly easier to create a service that does something for a customer...._"</comment>


Elephants Are Very Scared of Bees. That Could Save Their Lives - <AUTHOR> https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/26/science/bees-elephants-.html <comment><USER2> Dupe: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16246604](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16246604)

<comment><USER3> I think you mean [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16251029](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16251029)

<comment><USER2> Oops. Yeah, thanks!</comment></comment></comment>


Everyone wants a monopoly: How to win an undifferentiated commodity business war - <AUTHOR> https://azizpabani.com/post/commodity-business/ <comment><USER2> Most of the techniques he describes for competing in a commodity business make you a non-commodity business, by definition. A commodity business with a network effect isn't a commodity; it's a business whose key differentiator is the network. Same goes for a commodity business with an exclusive partnership; its differentiator is the partnership. Branding is a way to differentiate in consumer's minds, user experience is a way to differentiate in consumer's hands, access is a way to differentiate by consumer's feet.

A commodity business is usually defined as one where products are essentially interchangeable between producers and the price is set by supply & demand in the market as a whole rather than for any one manufacturer's product. And therefore, there is only one way to compete: be the low-cost producer. That way, no matter what the price is, you will still be in business and still be making more than any of your competitors.

Companies use all sorts of techniques to be the low-cost producer. Southwest Airlines did it for many years by turning planes around more quickly, using only 737s (to reduce maintenance and ground crew costs), and flying into smaller airports where they could negotiate lower landing fees. Walmart did it by negotiating heavily with suppliers, taking advantage of economies of scale in their superstores, and investing heavily in logistics. Amazon uses many of the same techniques, plus a heavy investment in automation. Vanguard became the low-cost producer in investments by piggybacking off the price discovery of all other investment firms. GEICO became the low-cost provider in auto insurance by only insuring people who were pretty good bets to begin with (indeed, if you have a clean driving record a number of insurance companies can match GEICO).

The key for all of them is that _cost_ is crucial and _quality_ is secondary, because consumers don't make their purchasing decisions on quality in a commodity market. So if you're going into a commodity market, you need to have that same maniacal focus on controlling costs.

<comment><AUTHOR> "The more prudent (and profitable) strategy however, is to remember that your 'offering' is not the same thing as your 'product', so even while the latter's commoditized, there's ways to compete, and even stand out with an overall unique offering." That's the difference right? Even when the underlying product is 'interchangeable between producers', it doesn't mean your entire business needs to be. Even in your examples, airline seats and car insurance might be commodities but Southwest and GEICO can (and do) charge a premium to the lowest cost producer all the time- whether it's because of their brand, user experience, customer loyalty etc.

<comment><USER2> We don't usually call them "commodity" businesses, then.

My examples are imperfect - Southwest and GEICO aren't pure commodity businesses, the fact that they even have brands indicates that. It's just that it's hard to point to examples that people have heard of when, by definition, a commodity business is one where you don't care who produces the product.

A better example might be sugar, or wheat, or iron ore, or screws, but I have no idea who produces those. Actually, there's a good one: oil. Oil is a pure commodity business (gasoline is the same regardless of where it comes out of the ground), and it has the expected behavior. The low-cost producers (Saudi Aramco) dominates, and they maintain their advantage through a combination of strategic application of technology, economies of scale, and owning natural resources that others can't match. And when Wall Street analysts evaluate the health of an oil company, the #1 metric they look at (besides the price of oil, which affects the whole industry) is the cost per barrel of oil.</comment></comment></comment>


JavaScript Tops Latest Programming Language Popularity - <AUTHOR> http://techcrunch.com/2012/09/12/javascript-tops-latest-programming-language-popularity-ranking-from-redmonk/

<comment><USER2> That's a great article, but the statistics have to be a little warped. JavaScript has no real competitor. It is THE client-side scripting language.

I also found it funny that the article says part of the ranking is based on "the programming questions and answer site StackOverflow." JavaScript tops that list because it's notoriously sloppy, and people rarely understand what it's doing.

</comment><comment><USER3> Did I read this correctly that the stats were just based on GitHub and StackOverflow? How is that a basis for the most popular language. Definitely a deceiving headline.</comment>


Companies that launched at YC's W19 Demo Day 2 - <AUTHOR> https://techcrunch.com/2019/03/19/here-are-the-88-companies-that-launched-at-ycs-w19-demo-day-2/ <comment><USER2> I'd be curious to read some coverage of what some of these companies achieved during yc. What they had coming in, what did they work on, manage get done, etc... Writing software, getting customers..

For example: "Withfriends: Membership programs for small businesses like bars, theaters, and barbershops. So far they have 80 small businesses on the platform, with over 5000 members*

How much of this was achieved during YC. Were they writing code in a flat? Selling businesses door-2-door? Did they have product and get the customers? Both? Neither?

<comment><USER3> Generally investors tend to care more about growth (especially the second derivative), so whenever I see only a zero'th order datapoint, I'm skeptical and wary of strategic omission.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Allure feels borderline dishonest to me. Clothes are mostly designed to fit perfectly on models. If you warp images of models onto other body shapes, I think you'll get images of clothes which fit perfectly on those other bodies.

The actual article of clothing probably won't fit perfectly though. Taking pictures of the larger sizes is a sort of proof of work that they can look good on at least one real person that size.

I don't know, this particular use case feels acceptable-ish to me. I suspect other versions of "ML-powered advertising doesn't necessarily match meatspace product delivered" will be seriously annoying in the future though.

<comment><USER5> >increasing shopping conversion rates by 14 percent

To your point on fit, I suspect the 14% conversion rate they're claiming isn't accounting for what could be a material return rate.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> How is a company like Allure an acceptable entrant? The fashion industry already falsifies clothing fitment by photographing tailored clothing on extremely attractive people. When you buy the same clothes, they don't fit like they do in the photo, and you definitely don't look like the model in the image.

Seems super scummy.

<comment><USER7> YC has funded scummy companies before. InstallMonetizer comes to mind.

In their defense, I don't think YC claims to not find scummy shit. To me it seems that they have a moral compass comparable most financial institutions, i.e. none.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> > Qwest: Lets people pay money to skip lines at venues like clubs and bars. > They're currently at 10 venues in 2 cities, and say they should be at 100 > venues in 6 cities this year. They aim to expand to events like music > festivals and sporting events.

Aren't most lines created deliberately for security reasons? Like: crowd control, maximum number of visitors, metal detectors, luggage checks, etc.

I can imagine that _some_ clubs deliberately create lines outside to give the impression of popularity and exclusivity. But for any other situation it is of economic interest to the owner to keep lines as short as possible (visitors can't spend money while in the line).

What I'm trying to get to is: I don't get why any event organiser or bar owner would want this.

<comment><USER9> I actually consulted briefly with a company that tried to do what Qwest is doing.

Popular bars and clubs have lines out front for a variety of reasons. It exists, and while "we're at capacity" is one reason, its not the only reason.

The issue they encountered was that right now, "skipping the line" is something you pay the bouncer to do in cash. They're also the ones you have to convince to use this app. But you're asking them to use an app that kills that revenue stream for them, it transfers all that $ to the club owner instead. So bouncers would only half use it, or "forget" to use it, or quit and go to another club.

<comment><USER5> Maybe offer commission to bouncers to encourage them to "sell" the crowd on paid line skipping. Their earnings per person would be lower, but volume would likely be higher since I suspect more people would be willing to pay through an app when prompted rather than taking the initiative to grease a bouncer with cash.

<comment><USER9> Perhaps. The company I helped out built out rev share as well as other things to help encourage bouncers to use the app, like a shared capacity counter so that multiple bouncers on multiple doors (maybe one person doing an "in" door and someone else on an "out" door around the corner) could keep an accurate capacity count. Was still a tough sales problem. Had to sell the club owner, had to sell the bouncers, and then had to reach and sell the club-goers.

FWIW the company closed down because they couldn't solve the business problem.

Edit: This is also a concept I've seen at like Startup Weekends before. IMO for Qwest to make this work, they need some really strong business connections or a really fresh take on it, which they may have.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I'm really curious to see how their pharmaceutical/medical bets play out.

This is a space that's very competitive with low R&D returns that seems outside YC's previous domains. I think it will be rougher than they thought breaking into it, but if they can prove out a better funding model for pharmaceutical development that could have a huge impact.

</comment><comment><USER11> I really like some if the companies this year specifically those with a social aspect. Wish there was a YC fund that average people could invest in. It would give a real opportunity to vote with money for more socially relevant companies at early stages instead of waiting for them on the stock exchanges

</comment><comment><USER12> How is it OK for a company to be named "Woke"?

<comment><USER13> Isn't that the past tense of wake?

<comment><USER12> [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke)

<comment><USER14> I'm not drawing conclusions, but I do want to point you to the end of the link you provided:

From Wiki: By the mid 2010s, woke had been adopted as a more generic slang term and has been the subject of memes and ironic usage.[10] For example, MTV News identified it as a key teen slang word for 2016.[16] In The New York Times Magazine, Amanda Hess raised concerns that the word has been culturally appropriated, writing, "The conundrum is built in. When white people aspire to get points for consciousness, they walk right into the cross hairs between allyship and appropriation."[12]

<comment><USER12> I'm not clear on what you want me to get from that passage. I think the word is too culturally loaded. It seems like the kind of potential problem one would avoid when naming a company or creating a brand.

<comment><USER14> That the word seems to have multiple meanings to multiple people. This particular team may not have thought about the word the way you (and others) did.

I also recognize the parallels between this and say, a confederate flag. Some people in the deep south truly believe that it is not racist. But... the vast majority of people in the US believe it is a racist symbol.

You don't want your company name to be the equivalent of that. IMO, they should probably revist and rename. More to your point, if I named a company, I'd probably google the name a few times which would reveal the other possible meanings.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Pet peeve: if you use the first sentence or two of your elevator pitch to tell me what college you went to, you're doing it wrong.

<comment><USER16> It's TechCrunch's reporting of them. They're not telling you - TechCrunch are. I don't know if that was their elevator pitch or from some other information.

<comment><USER17> While that is true, the paragraph is a paraphrase of their demo day pitch.</comment></comment></comment>


How Many of Us are Productivity Geeks (Omnifocus, Asana, TeuxDeux, etc) - <AUTHOR>

Built omnifocus<-->teuxdeux integration to scratch a personal itch and wonder what tools others here use to manage projects and tasks?<p>Asana, Omnifocus, TeuxDeux, ToDoist, orgmode, ...? <comment><USER2> I've been timeboxing a lot lately and it's been very helpful, so I've designed a web app that I am going to build out in my free time to help with planning and tracking my progress. Here's a screenshot: [https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/1/view/l1j1xg8tzna8d5t/Cap...](https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/1/view/l1j1xg8tzna8d5t/Captured/3O9uV.png)

<comment><USER3> Getting a 401 error on that. Can you repost to imgur or something?

<comment><USER2> Oops, sorry: [http://imgur.com/Cmw7VS3](http://imgur.com/Cmw7VS3)

<comment><AUTHOR> nice!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I use a combination of Remember the Milk for recurring tasks with Trello for managing tasks and projects. I try to apply a GTD methodology on Trello boards and I like the results thus far. Trello is really flexible, has a simple basic interface, but also a lot of (optional) depth for power users.

<comment><AUTHOR> awesome sauce... thanks.</comment></comment>


Text file wins 16 software awards - <AUTHOR> http://www.watchguard.com/RSS/showarticle.aspx?pack=RSS.16Awards <comment><USER2> "Deja vue" I thought and lo and behold - [http://successfulsoftware.net/2007/08/16/the-software- awards...](http://successfulsoftware.net/2007/08/16/the-software-awards-scam)

August 2007. How lovely of Watchguard to repackage the article, stamp its own copyright and publish it as "news".

<comment><USER3> They do link to that article, both at the beginning and at the end of their story.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> More than 10 years ago, I made a website called UCACA [Under Construction And Collecting Awards]. It collected about 17 awards. It was eligible for one award because it had already had two other awards. One fellow noted that the site met all of his criteria for an award (originality, fast access, good design). However, he didn't give me the award on the basis that it would make a mockery of his award. Others were far less discriminating.

</comment><comment><USER5> A thread in the WatchGuard article, which I didn't see in the original, starts in the 1st line: "...highlights the risky side of relying on freeware and shareware for any mission-critical purpose."

I would attribute the risk more to a lack of knowledge and experience with ones software than the free-ness or non-free-ness.

<comment><USER6> Indeed. I am the author of the original article. I was out to expose sordid practices by download sites, not to vilify any class of software.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> The article says that he "had a third party submit his file to just about every software aggregation site", it would be handy to know how many that was, so that we can divide 16 by it.

<comment><USER8> It gives numbers in the original blog post:

[http://successfulsoftware.net/2007/08/16/the-software- awards...](http://successfulsoftware.net/2007/08/16/the-software-awards-scam/)

"According to the report I received 2 weeks after submissions began "awardmestars" is now listed on 218 sites, pending on 394 sites and has been rejected by 421 sites. Approximately 7% of the sites that listed the software emailed me that it had won an award (I don't know how many have displayed it with an award, without informing me). With 394 pending sites it might win quite a few more awards yet."

"Addendum 2 -- 23 awards 'won' at the latest count."

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Reminds me of web hosting review sites stuffed with affiliate links. Of course they're ranked in order of highest to lowest commission.

</comment><comment><USER10> Shareware download sites is another thing Google has eliminated the need for.

</comment><comment><USER11> i knew i had read that after one sentence. thanks huhtenberg for linking to the original.</comment>


Ask HN: How do i determine how much software development will cost? - <AUTHOR>

I'm starting a business to create a software/hardware product and i need to estimate how much the software will cost to develop. I dont have any experience coding to know how to determine this and no idea where to get this information. Any ideas? <comment><USER2> You might try shopping your idea around some place where programmers congregate -- like, ohhh, HN? -- and get feedback on the specifics.

Don't worry about anyone stealing your idea. Anyone good enough to pull it off is already too busy with other projects.

<comment><AUTHOR> I'm trying to build a product like autodesk's flame but a bit different. They sell this for $300k/unit, so i'm wondering how much it actually cost them to make it.

[http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/pc/index?siteID=123112&...](http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/pc/index?siteID=123112&id=14405979)

Edit: To elaborate, flame is pretty much like an adobe after effects + premiere hybrid.

<comment><USER2> Whoof. I support any effort that competes with AutoDesk -- they're an abysmal company that go out of their way to encourage people to compete with them -- but you're picking quite an ambitious project here.

If you want to produce a closed-source product, your programmers will be somewhat limited in the various open source projects that they can use as an effective foundation for this.

I'd say, purely from a software development standpoint, to produce a version 1.0 of something that might have a chance of competing with Flame, you're gonna need: a good UI guy, a brilliant 3D hacker, a pretty sharp math guy (fortunately they're cheap these days :-), a good programmer, and an experienced project manager with some respectable coding chops just to keep the project moving along. So, say a minimum of $250k combined yearly salaries. If you're a strong businessman, and if you get the right team together, you _might_ be able to get a beta released in 12 months.

That estimate is high or low depending on how much higher or lower your goals are in terms of a first release, but it should be kind of ballpark.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the estimate. I figured it would take a team of 50 programmers @ $100k/yr salary 2 years to complete it (which is how long i want to give it), which would equal a total cost of $10m, which i imagine would be reasonable considering it wouldnt take much to recoup.

Seriously, it would only take like 5 people to write a program like flame from scratch?

<comment><USER3> Well, you can do it with only 1. But it would him/her several years and a LOT of effort. I think parent was saying that to get a "functional" team, a minimum of 5 would be needed.

Even with the 5 people, I think the estimate of 1 year is a bit extreme. Unless you get brilliant programmers that can work together really well, I'd imagine they would need more time than that.

I don't know what the product is, but to be able to compete with a mature product(even a bad one) takes a lot of time and energy. It all depends on what you want version 1.0 to do.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> It's extremely difficult to estimate the amount of work a software project is going to take. If you're working with an experienced developer, and have a good specification of the software you're building, they will probably be able to give you a ballpark estimate.

No matter how good the ballpark estimate is, it won't be right on, either in terms of time or money. Every piece of software you build is, by it's nature, unique. If it wasn't, you'd just license the existing software.

<comment><AUTHOR> I'm not working with a developer at the moment, im just in the planning stages. If i were to look for a developer to consult me on this, what sort of qualifications would i look for?

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> I think the main question would be do you currently have access to any resources that you plan on using to create this software? Do they have any experience in this field, or is this going to be a learning experience for them, just like it would be for you.

Estimation is very hard, my suggestion would be to try and find what is the minimum viable product that you want to produce, because in all likelihood you aren't going to be able to duplicate every feature that Autodesk has, and find some developers who have worked on this type of work to give you some idea of time. Even then figure that their estimates are going to be off and add some buffer. But still somewhat of a crap shoot because stuff always pops up.

Derek

</comment><comment><USER3> For a big application like that, I would hire someone to write up a draft spec so that programmers can have an idea of how much effort it would take.

Writing a draft spec wouldn't cost you that much(a few k perhaps) and you would have to do it anyway. I think of it as a feasibility study.

<comment><AUTHOR> Where and whom do i look for to write a draft spec?

<comment><USER3> If you don't know any freelancer local to your area, perhaps post here asking for help and contract it out for the person you "click" with.(most probably this person will be your next project manager)

I would say that you need an experienced programmer or a project manager type(with good programming skills). Someone who understands how to write code but is experienced enough to communicate with anybody else on a higher level.

I wouldn't personally recommend any of the project bidding sites out there for this project(although I've used them personally as seller and buyer before).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> No experience, no knowledge. Sounds like a perfect plan.

Clearly it will cost more than the retail price. One would think at least x10. So therefore $3M

</comment><comment><USER7> maybe COCOMO II or COSYSMO to give you an effort estimate. They're meant to be calibrated to your environment though.

Or a book like this: DeMarco, Tom. Controlling Software Projects: Management, Measurement and Estimation. ISBN 0-13-171711-1.</comment>


Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure - <AUTHOR> https://www.npr.org/2019/08/18/752173091/leaked-brexit-document-depicts-government-fears-of-gridlock-food-shortages-unres <comment><USER4> >and does not reflect the preparations spearheaded by Johnson that are now underway.

All the more reason to be alarmed. The guy seems like a complete loose cannon - more likely to cause additional chaos that help.

Really starting to wonder whether this isn't one big geopolitical campaign to short an entire country.

<comment><USER5> Jacob Rees-Mogg's father actually wrote a book called _" The Sovereign Individual: The Coming Economic Revolution and How to Survive and Prosper in It"_

<comment><USER6> And also, _' Blood in the Streets: Investment Profits in a World Gone Mad'_.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Just a reminder though, economic predictions are known to sometimes be wrong.

And calm your tits everyone, this is such a contentious matter. Both sides don't know what the future will bring, it's probably neither a disaster nor a panacea. At least it hasn't been so far, despite being known as a definite inevitability for 3 years.

<comment><USER8> I dunno. If I was British, I'd be hanging on to my nuts reaaal tight or maybe look into selling the left one

<comment><USER9> If you were British, you'd remember that these are the same people who assured the population that simply voting to leave would trigger a massive recession that'd destroy half a million jobs in the best case, _before_ leaving actually happened, just due to "uncertainty".

They were completely wrong. Not just wrong by magnitude, but wrong in the wrong direction. The economy boomed.

This sort of report was written by civil servants who hate Brexit and want it to die, for ministers who hate Brexit and were looking for reasons to cancel it all together. It has no credibility, simple as that.

Many British people do remember this, and have watched for the last three years as their political leadership mendaciously manipulate things as hard as they can to try and avoid doing what they said they'd do. That's why polls show "no deal" to be significantly more popular than, for example, the opposition party taking over.

<comment><USER10> > The economy boomed.

Citation needed?

How about this: [https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019/03/21/economic- performan...](https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019/03/21/economic-performance- since-the-brexit-vote-slowed-gdp-growth-lower-productivity-depreciated-pound/)

"Relative to G7 countries, however, the UK has slipped from having the highest growth rate in the G7 before the vote, to the lowest now (OBR 2018)."

"Worryingly, the gap between output per worker in OECD countries and the UK has widened since the referendum"

"On referendum night, the pound fell from a high of $1.50 to $1.33. This is the single biggest drop in the daily exchange rate since the 1970s among the four major currencies of the world. The sterling depreciation was expected by some to spark an export boom, but this has not happened."

"The fallout of higher import costs has to a degree fallen on UK workers in terms of lower earnings now and in the future through fewer skill development opportunities."

"Purchasing power has gone down. On average, real wages have been flat since the referendum. Nominal wages have risen, but below the previous 2% norm (ONS 2018). Consumer prices have risen to reduce real wages. Inflation rose sharply after the referendum and remained high till recently."

"Overall, the real economy shows signs of productivity and real wage stagnation, which has taken the UK much lower than other high-income countries since the Brexit referendum."

Lucky us eh! With our booming economy! Personally, I've found that running a business working almost exclusively with charities and non-profits, that since the vote it has been much harder to get our clients to spend money.

<comment><USER9> Ah, the LSE blog. Always good for the worst possible spin on anything Brexit related.

It's all especially tough for economists because the profession was so united in the claims about economic decline after the vote, but they were proven completely wrong.

The economy boomed. I will show you with data.

People in work hit the largest numbers ever seen in British history, unemployment fell to lows not seen for decades. Wages rose. GDP growth stayed about normal for the UK. TradingEconomics has lots of datasets with useful 5 and 10 year views, so you can get a feel for what's normal.

Go look at the 10 year view here:

[https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/gdp-growth- annua...](https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/gdp-growth-annual)

Essentially flat, see? From 2016-2018 GDP growth wandered around between 1% and 2%. Nobody looking at these numbers would have guessed there was meant to be some massive economic calamity.

Meanwhile, the pound. The pound has been in slow long term decline, as you'd expect given the trade deficit, and many analysts think it's a much needed correction given the pound being "over strong" thanks to the City. Go here and click "MAX" so you can see the long term trends:

[https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/GBPEUR%3DX](https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/GBPEUR%3DX)

The big impact on the GBP/EUR rate was the financial crisis. It eventually got back within its old region around 2015 (pre Brexit) but then went into decline again at the end of 2015 and has been wandering around the same rough level ever since. Again, look at that MAX graph and try to spot this economic calamity that was supposed to slaughter the economy and destroy nearly a million jobs. You can't see it because it never happened.

Meanwhile LSE blog is saying things totally false - there _was_ an exports boom, in fact exports are doing great. See for yourself:

[https://tradingeconomics.com/united- kingdom/exports](https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/exports)

Look at the 10 year view. You can see growth between 2009 and 2012, stability between 2012 and 2016, then a sudden jump at the time of the referendum. Since then exports have been climbing rather than stable. It seems the (relatively small) currency drop _did_ cause an immediate and large increase in exports, it's impressive how quickly the economy responded actually. I can't see why the LSE guys are claiming there was no exports boom given that dataset. The magnitude of that mis-statement is vast: what on earth _would_ qualify as an "exports boom" by their standards?

Wage growth is also very high, in fact it's at about the level it was before the financial crisis started.

[https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/wage- growth](https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/wage-growth)

So let's recap.

The world was meant to end on the day of a Leave vote, even before leaving happened. Between 500,000 and 800,000 jobs lost in an instant recession, according to the Treasury, and only a tiny number of economists disagreed (Patrick Minford was one, Krugman disagreed _after_ the vote but before was publishing similar things).

But exports jumped and continue to grow. GDP growth was normal. Unemployment dropped through the floor. Wage growth grew, it's still high and climbing. Foreign investment is also within normal ranges. Inflation is inside normal ranges and currently wage growth is higher than inflation:

[https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/core- inflation-r...](https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/core-inflation- rate)

Remember the central bank tries to target 2%, and that's about where it's sitting. For the LSE to spin this as bad news is implicitly to state that central bank and economic orthodoxy is wrong, but they aren't arguing that.

The LSE blog want you to believe that Brexit is a disaster because that's what academic and government economists predicted, and, sadly, because they desperately want it to be true. But remember to compare what they write against their prior claims and the magnitude of their prior failures. These people have no credibility. That's why they're desperately cherry picking strange stats like "output per worker in OECD countries" and "growth rate amongst the G7 only", which aren't normally prominent in discussions about economic performance. They spin growth as bad news, and in some cases simply seem to mislead you about the data. Don't trust them on anything Brexit related.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Political opposition leaked a scare document? Welcome to politics.

<comment><USER12> No, this document was drafted by Boris Johnson's pro-Brexit government.

E: Apparently it was his predecessor, but it's nevertheless not drafted by Labour.

<comment><USER13> Totally false. And using fear in politics is nothing new. The US now has tariffs on Canada because of the "risk" Canada poses to national security.

The idea that the UK crumbles (the document has things like cancer patients dying, folks with diabetes dying - its just an incredible list) seems far fetched. The UK operated prior to the EU without all these disasters.

<comment><USER14> This is like saying it's easy to refactor a huge codebase to strip a critical software component from it overnight, because 40 years ago you used to have a standalone version that didn't require it.

<comment><USER13> Actually - if I can get totally illegal drugs in the UK, I suspect that if market forces work the same way for legal drugs as they do for illegal, folks who face death without their drugs will find a way to get supply of those drugs.

And it will be totally appalling if the EU to prove a point blocks shipments of those drugs.

This is a chance for the US perhaps to get in with some timely shipments using the US military or other govt resources. Could save lots of UK lives while the EU let's their neighbors die.

<comment><USER14> It sounds like you're either trolling or deeply confused about what's going on.

The EU is not threatening to block shipments of anything nor to "let their neighbors die". It's the UK government that seems intent on imposing economic sanctions unto itself by leaving the single market.

Actually, the closest thing to suggesting to let neighbors die was these outrageous comments by UK Home Secretary Priti Patel a few weeks ago ([https://www.joe.ie/news/british-politician-says-uk- threaten-...](https://www.joe.ie/news/british-politician-says-uk-threaten- ireland-food-shortages-leverage-backstop-650910)), suggesting to cause food shortages in Ireland in order to pressure them to drop the backstop. To anyone who knows history between the 2 countries (actual famine in Ireland caused by Britain centuries ago), this is abhorrent.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> I think they predicted this a long time ago, and have been stockpiling, in case of such an emergency. Some things of course, you can't stockpile up on.

It's going to be really interesting to see what happens to the UK as it will influence the politics of other EU countries, and the future of the EU, a lot.

</comment><comment><USER16> Since the vote was so close, why not do another referendum on doing another referendum?

You can organize this with one referendum, which is:

1\. Would you like to do another referendum on leaving the EU?

A) Yes

B) No

2\. Great-Brittain should leave the EU

A) Yes

B) No

If people still want Great-Brittain to leave, then they bought themselves some time and otherwise this whole brexit thing has been resolved.

<comment><USER17> You joke, but asking the uninformed public to vote on such deep constitutional matters was what got the UK into this mess. Barely anyone in the public was qualified to give their judgement on the merits of continuing inside the EU versus the concept of being out of it. The question was then morphed by the Leave side into "do you think we should stop immigrants coming to the UK?", with the consequences we can all see now.

<comment><USER18> It's like voting over whether vaccines work or not...

Some things should be left to experts.

This is the major criticism of direct democracy.

<comment><USER17> Indeed. A recent poll was quoted on yesterday's "Any Questions?" show on BBC Radio 4 by a Brexiteer, which apparently asked the public "should MPs represent their own views or those of their constituents?". Some small number of voters - I forget, but it was around 7% - thought they should represent their own views and the rest thought those of their constituents. This was, in the Brexiteer's view, evidence that MPs delaying Brexit in any form was anti- democratic given that 52% voted for "it" (where "it" was sadly not defined).

Thing is, we elect MPs exactly so they can express their views in parliament. They're supposed to be experts, or at least they are given resources to consult experts on matters that affect their constituents. They are resolutely not for representing their constituents' views - that's why they publish a manifesto of what they want to do and we are asked to vote on it every 5 years. Of course, part of an MP's job is to consult their constituents, but they are not bound whatsoever to represent the majority view of their constituents. Apparently 93% of the public apparently don't understand this; the same public that were asked to decide whether to stay in the EU or not...

<comment><USER19> Questions such as "should we stay in the EU" can't be answered by experts.

Economists could perhaps answer some small parts of it - like "will this be net plus for the economy over next 5 years", but even then I'd imagine there would be little consensus.

Questions this huge are really the sort of thing that _should_ be put to the unwashed masses. They know as much as anyone else - not much.

<comment><USER20> > Questions such as "should we stay in the EU" can't be answered by experts.

There's an interesting idea for a method of government based on the distinction between values and policy results.

> In "futarchy," we would vote on values, but bet on beliefs

[https://mason.gmu.edu/~rhanson/futarchy.html](https://mason.gmu.edu/~rhanson/futarchy.html)

In my opinion 'should the UK stay in the EU' would very definitely be a question of policy not values. It would actually be pretty difficult to disentangle the brexit question into meaningful values.

You could say it's about 'sovereignty', but the UK parliament is as sovereign as it ever was - as the very fact that it's currently leaving demonstrates. In fact for the pure self-interested, short term version of sovereignty, the right thing to do is to plough your own furrow, taking advantage of the benefits and ignoring what you don't like until you are finally kicked out of the EU, which is something we might well see some other EU countries do. Any more nuanced understanding of sovereignty would realize that sovereignty is how we describe an entity that is able to enter into and keep agreements, and exercise infuence on other actors, not one that is unable to because it might restrict its freedom of action. Just as for humans, the end result of refusing all bonds is not freedom, it's extreme restriction. And that's not even considering the strain that leaving the EU puts on relationships with Scotland and Northern Ireland. It wouldn't surprise me at all if down the road brexit ends in break-up. Sovereignty takes on a bit more nuance when you're simultaneously denying it to your constituent members by leaving.

You could say it's about 'migration', but that's not a proper value either. I suspect that people who complain about migration have values to do with crime, economics, and needing to be around people 'like them'. The only thing about those values, is that for most of them, migration is exactly the wrong thing to be worried about. As 'experts' know, migrants are less likely to commit crime, and more likely to pay taxes than the native born.

I don't think the UK should be leaving the EU for policy reasons. I believe that it's in the interests of the UK, of Europe, of the world to resist the forces trying to disintegrate Europe (I've read enough history to know what happened last time). I think many of the disagreements I have with people who think it should leave are at the level of reality - things that could be established by fact.

Trying to claim that it's motivated by differences of values is part of what is making the issue less clear.

Of course this is all made extra difficult by the fact that the whole thing has been horrendously mishandled. The government has repeatedly and continually believed things for long periods of time about negotiating with Europe that are simply untrue. It was obvious from the start that this was going to be complicated, and pressing the button to start the ticking timebomb you're sat on top of, is not a great way to negotiate either. Whether you want Brexit or not, invoking article 50 before anyone knew what it meant was the height of idiocy.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> Anyone manage to get the source doc? Seems it's behind a paywall.

</comment><comment><USER17> A peculiarity: the "south east" is the area most typically associated with the Conservatives and their voters, who have been in power for the past 9 years and who have driven most of the Brexit rhetoric. The south east is also nearest the Channel Tunnel and ferry ports to the continent, and so their food, drugs, etc. will suffer the least delay, least spoilage, etc. in the case of a "No Deal" Brexit.

<comment><USER22> I think that's over-egging it a bit.

You can drive from Dover to almost all of the mainland UK in 8 hours.

The Scottish Highlands will take a bit longer.

It'll be a problem, but I doubt being close to the port will make a difference.

<comment><USER23> I mean.. If the people crossing the border at Dover are as slow as the average person passing the British border, then the backlog will be all the way from Dover to Inverness

<comment><USER22> The backlog relevant for those importing goods would be on the French side?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> As bad as a hard Brexit would be for the UK, it it probably necessary at this point, if for no other reason than to give the hard-core Brexiteers exactly what they want

The way that Hitler was defeated was that Berlin was pounded into rubble that put paid to the revival of stab-in-the-back theories that followed WW1. Japan was defeated by two nuclear bombs that replaced any hope of resistance with fear of obliteration. Bin Laden killed in his pajamas, and his body was dumped in the ocean: an ignominious end to a man who claimed to take divine inspiration for his acts. The supporters of these ideologies had to experience the shame of total defeat, and see no hope, before they moved on.

A hard Brexit, while causing some pain for the British public, may well be the medicine needed to show its most fanatical supporters the error of their ways. Otherwise their resentment will fester for decades longer.

<comment><USER25> I'd agree with this apart from the cost to other people being completely unacceptable.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> If true, would this not point towards avoiding such unions in the future?

<comment><USER27> No, it just points to a. Having a reasonable exit process (the default of two years makes no sense) and b. The public having the patience to understand 40+ years of cooperation can't be rolled back in a matter of months.

<comment><USER28> The 2 year window and article 50 was an addition from UK ironically

Also they did not have to lodge the article 50 letter when they did, they could have spent years preparing and figuring out what it is exactly they want to accomplish.

Finally the EU gave an extension twice now for them to figure out what they want, instead of doing that UK govt doubled down on stupid.

<comment><USER29> If the UK wants more time, they should just revoke article 50 and then activate it again later on. I don't understand this whole "will the EU grant an extension?" business.

<comment><USER23> They can't just revoke article 50 to only reenact it later on. A retraction of article 50 would have to be in good faith. A European court came to that conclusion.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> Haven't we seen from the steele dossier that these things can essentially be made up, outdated, or inaccurate, and then be leaked to a salivating press to push an agenda? I feel like this is a tired plot by now. There's no reason to take this seriously without more context and input from the counter- perspective.

<comment><USER31> So because one leaked document is controversial (and last I checked the Steele dossier isn't confirmed to be all that inaccurate) we should disregard all leaked communications? That feels like faulty logic.

Should we have dismissed Watergate because it was based on leaked information?

<comment><USER30> The problem isn't that it's leaked, it's that it's taken as true without further regard, despite changes since then or even untruths contained within, because it is what some people want to believe to be true. The "leak" aspect makes it seem secretive and therefore more revealing, when in reality it likely lulled from inaccuracy.

<comment><USER31> None of that is true, though. It's taken as the only evidence we currently have. The government is free to dispute it, to disown it, and to publish its own contrary information.

Still waiting.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> Scaremongering headline; I thought NPR was better than that.

The document doesn't "predict" any such thing. It considers a number of worst- case scenarios of things that could happen, but that's a far cry from predicting that every worst-case scenario will actually come to pass.

<comment><USER33> > A government source told the Sunday Times: "This is not Project Fear — this > is the most realistic assessment of what the public face with no deal. These > are likely, basic, reasonable scenarios — not the worst case."

One of their sources indicates that these aren't just a worst case scenario, though.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> The EU and the British establishment will do everything they can to punish the UK for their insolence. All the more reason it was a good idea to #Leave. Better to take whatever lumps that come now.

<comment><USER35> Agreed. The eu is basically a german/french dictatorship. The thing is, once the uk recovers after the leave event, many other eu countries will follow suit.

<comment><USER28> What? EU is loose federation of 28 EQUAL members

I think the UK has a problem with being an equal and has not got over its loss of empire, just look at how they treat their own constituent countries such as Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales

<comment><USER36> > What? EU is loose federation of 29 EQUAL members

To be fair: whatever us Germans and the French want, we eventually get - <USER2> often by outright nation-scale bribery. It's all backroom dealing - <USER3> example, us Germans get no opposition preventing harsher pollution regimes EU- wide (to protect our heavy car-oriented industry), the countries which would oppose get EU funding grants for construction or whatever.

<comment><USER14> Likewise for the UK. Not even talking about the outrageously good (even slightly unfair) membership rebate they have, I remember reading that the UK has been outvoted around 2% of the time at the EU level, and not on important matters either.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>