Ask HN: I got let go this morning. What should I do next? - <AUTHOR> I went in to work this morning, in downtown Cleveland, ordered a BLT for our free lunch friday, and got called into a meeting. I was told my position was being removed (probably to cut costs, although they did not say), and I needed to clean off my desk. I'm a javascript developer. I built a large angular application while there, but it is now built and there are other developers who can support it.
As far as I see it, I have this great opportunity to break out of the regular 9-5 job world, which I have always wanted to do. I have been working weekends on pearmarket.co, which is a website for small farmers to more easily promote their products online (I have recently open sourced the core of the project at https://github.com/thecolorblue/beetpress). Unfortunately, it is not currently in a place where I can dedicate all of my time to it and see any income. I would say I am 3 months of solid work away from having a good beta. I do not see this as an option as it would clear out most of my savings, and leave me in mostly the same position I am in now.
I have looked into doing freelance work, but as I am self taught my CS skills are not as solid as other developers, and my design skills are just about average. I am more product focused, I try to work as closely to the end user as possible and clearly define what they need. There does not seem to be a need for freelance product people (is this a good assumption?). It's also important to note that I am 28 and just got engaged. Moving is an option, but living on a spare couch for a couple months is not.
So I really have two questions. What would you do in my situation (would you stay in a smaller city?), and if you could start over in web development, what would you focus on? <comment><USER3> So my guess is this is the first time you've been let go, or this is the first time as an adult (post-college) during your profession that you've been let go.

Relax, it happens. This doesn't mean you aren't a terrific developer and person to work with. Take a little time to think about what you've worked on, what you've accomplished in the past 6-12 months I think you'll see what a great position you really are in. As others have said it's a golden time for both developers and particularly Javascript coders.

Once you've had a little time to reflect on all this then dust off your resume, update your linked in, and basically get ready for a lot of recruiters calling you.

If you have the means financially don't rush, take your time and really interview your next potential employer as if you were hiring them.

You'll be amazed what kind of work is out there if you take your time versus jumping into the next gig you are offered.

Lastly, at 28 I would seriously consider a startup. You are in a great position to take that risk right now. Since you aren't in a tech hub like San Francisco it might take a little more time to find something there, unless you want to relocate. Perhaps look under Gigs in craigslist, I've found local (Denver) startups looking for coders that way in the past.

<comment><USER4> What's the benefit of a startup? Seems like more hours for less pay while always needing to get things done. I fail to see the appeal. They just have lunches and dinners which appeal to people.

<comment><USER5> Never getting a raise because that's not built into their budget and there's not a system around it. Having to beg for vacation time and getting maybe a week a year. And after a few years or a few ventures, your friends at big corps are already starting to talk about retirement and pensions, and you realize that's an extra million you gave up. But hey, you can wear shorts!

<comment><USER6> I work for fortune 300 non tech company (despite their NASDAQ listing). Our pension program has been frozen - no new employees can join and years of service no longer accrue additional benefit. There has not been a 401k match in four years, the continuing education program ended with the merger 10 years ago. And the healthcare is marginally better than Obamacare. And raises. Last year they were 0.75%.

A startup looks better and better.

<comment><USER7> I'm guessing when most people [on HN] are comparing big companies to startups they're thinking of tech companies. What you describe may not be unusual for large non-tech companies - but it's pretty horrible compared to large tech ones.

If it's feasible you may want to consider looking for a new job. [And FWIW some great advice I got when starting out as a developer was never work where software is a cost-center].

<comment><USER8> This cost-center point is key. I work for one of the big international electronics corps as an enterprise web dev, but they have no interest in the quality of our work. They don't understand it, they have no belief in codebase maintainability (everything is new development or bugfix, basically as soon as an app is written it becomes frozen legacy code that will sit for 5+ years until a rewrite is finally budgeted).

A lot of the superiors they hire really affect the architectural policies of the company. For example, we can use Spring & jQuery but little else. Now they are trying to write apps with heavier front-end & getting into trouble cuz its a mess of jQuery callbacks with no real js framework. Why? The main architect has never heard of React, Angular, backbone, etc. (not to mention the fact that I'm one of like 2 devs who can actually write js, and unfortunately the other does not possess the equally rare skill: "uses proper design patterns"). You'd think I was joking until you met a bunch of corporate consultant programmers.

Basically, these companies try to boil web development into an old-school "IT" process but the level of intellect is astonishingly low. I've been lookin for a new gig at a tech company for quite a while but it was tough to make a change cuz this is my first gig out of grad school, had to prove myself a bit & build resume.

The only relief is that the corp "cost-center" IT kindof job I have is such a mess that its a good place to study & relax, pace of work is veeeeery slow.

<comment><USER9> > I've been lookin for a new gig at a tech company for quite a while but it > was tough to make a change cuz this is my first gig out of grad school, had > to prove myself a bit & build resume.

Why not try to apply for some jobs now? You don't know how good your resume is until you try it

<comment><USER8> heh thanks for the words of encouragement. i'm going to try now, yes. but basically.... to be fair i'm getting paid a pretty good wage so i really just need some experience to avoid looking like a dabbler. I'm looking at senior level positions now & they seem to want to see that you're really committed to a certain type of code.

I went from research Matlab / dabbling in C# at a dayjob, to RoR, to javascript, to now pretty hardcore backend Java (EE, Spring, high concurrency for last 2 yrs), trying to move into Clojure a bit more. Most well-funded companies don't seem to like polyglots from what I can tell... But yeah I will be looking for the ones that do, plus I am studying C++ to make a bit of a more lateral move into audio digital signal processing / data-mining / machine learning.

I don't know... companies tell me I'm too expensive for the level of experience I have, yet all the high-paid seniors I work with are awful so I don't want to lower my salary expectations unless I can find a company thats actually worth sacrificing for.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Try to retain your former boss as a customer, likely they'll need you two weeks time.

<comment><USER11> Can someone explain this more in detail?

It's bad ethics to write stuff that only you can maintain, so what other methods can one achieve this/what do you mean?

<comment><USER10> Of course it's bad ethics to write stuff that only you can maintain. But if you built it, regardless of how well you documented it and how easy someone else _could_ maintain it you're the current expert and by the sound of the OP the rest of the team is not in his league. So the employer thinks to cut costs now that the major work has been done and they're in 'maintenance mode'. That might work, for a while. And then in a few weeks when they want something a bit more elaborate it may very well turn out that letting the OP go was a mistake.

Being good at something (or at least, much better than your co-workers) is the other method you're looking for, no need to resort to evil stuff.

Likely this was reflected in the OPs salary, note that he's let go but his co- workers are not, so probably he was making more per hour than they. And now he'll make more per hour still and his former boss will be more than happy to pay once he realizes that OP could turn him down just as easy as he was let go.

Don't burn your bridges...

<comment><USER12> And the OP's former boss gets to pay for the actual hours needed to implement the desired feature rather than a monthly cheque.

Could be a win both ways in that sense. OA gets a customer with a regular _need_ and existing investment. Former boss gains flexibility and can show headcount reduction.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> If you want to stay in the midwest and build for farmers, come join us at FarmLogs (YC12).

farmlogs.com/jobs

<comment><USER14> Looks like you guys are doing some awesome stuff! I'll have to keep you in mind if I ever decide to leave my cushy DevOps job in Troy.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> > I have looked into doing freelance work, but as I am self taught my CS > skills are not as solid as other developers, and my design skills are just > about average

Skills have very little baring on success as a freelancer. 99.99% of clients will not care what language, framework, algorithm or pattern you use to create their product.

The biggest issue as a freelancer is clients. Clients are absolute hell.

<comment><USER16> Clients generally don't care about or understand your technology choices. People and process management are at least as important to freelance success as programming or design skill. That much I definitely agree with.

I wouldn't describe my clients as hell, though--not by a long shot. But I've been freelancing full time for seven years, moonlighting five before that, and I've learned to avoid (and am able to do without) bad clients for the most part.

Way back in the beginning, when I didn't much know what I was doing and sold even that work way too cheap, there were some pretty bad times.

<comment><USER15> It just takes a certain type of person to be a freelancer that can deal with clients, and I am not that person. I had "good" high paying clients that were still not fun to work with. It's probably less about them and more about me wanting to control every aspect of the product.

</comment></comment></comment><comment> bjr- 1) Sprint on a side project using tech you're excited about to keep you motivated while you're looking for jobs in parallel. Don't limit your job search geographically but also don't rush to leave unless the opportunity is worth it.

2) ClojureScript, React, Datomic are my preferences. A well-designed language with JS as a compilation target, React Native, and a graph database with ACID guarantees and scalable reads are powerful tools.

My story:

I was fired 2 weeks after moving to a suburb ~90 min from nyc (employer had ok'd remote work, oh well). I came up with a good side project using all the technologies I was excited about and sprinted on that while I 1) signed up for unemployment, 2) updated resume, 3) updated linkedin, 4) started looking at freelancing marketplaces, 5) go to all the relevant meetups, etc. This worked really well because it gave me something fun to focus on while grinding through all these job channels.

3 weeks later I found a local job using some of the technologies I was excited about (Clojure, ClojureScript and Datomic!) and I'm working there now. The market is nuts.

</comment><comment><USER17> > I am self taught my CS skills are not as solid as other developers

There are a lot of, like, regular companies in a lot of regular, not silicon valley cities, that hire regular developers working on boring software products for a very good salary. You'll very likely get a raise out of this. Don't freak out, work on your open source thing for a couple weeks while you set up five interviews. Once you have an offer you can step back and relax, and decide what you want to do.

</comment><comment><USER18> Success with clients will have little to do with your technical chops.

Hand hold them through the design process, be firm about informing when you think they are making the wrong decision, overly attribute the success of the project to them.

Nobody sues a doctor that has been kind to them.

Everybody loves a freelancer/consultant that gets a job done, is humble and makes everyone look like a success.

</comment><comment><USER19> 1\. Realize that as a developer you will be in high demand in the workforce, surely you will find something better in no time.

2\. Work on your startup idea / prototype during this downtime. It doesn't have to be perfect, just hacked together well enough to provide value to someone.

3\. Brush up your skills on sites like Codeacademy, W3C, Tutsplus, etc. Take a few free online university / MOOC courses.

4\. Sift through projects on Odesk / Elance. You may find some part time work that may provide some supplemental income while at the same time improving your dev skills.

5\. Hustle. Knock on doors. Be proactive. Let your passions shine through. Don't take no for an answer.

<comment><USER20> > Sift through projects on Odesk / Elance. You may find some part time work > that may provide some supplemental income while at the same time improving > your dev skills.

You're probably better off taking unemployment and working on some quick projects to spiff up your github account. I experimented with Odesk/Elance for side income and the best job I managed to find was $20/hr.

<comment><USER19> Ah, the American way: Why work when you can get the same pay from the taxpayers pocket without having to?

I rather work at McDonalds for half that @dminor and still have my pride, than to be a burden on society.

<comment><USER20> thecolorblue has already paid unemployment insurance, via his employer, for exactly the situation he's in now. He is his own burden.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> Also based out of Cleveland -- feel free to contact me privately if you'd like to be put in touch with a few people.

My suggestion would be to go to some of the meetup groups. CleRB, ClePY, NodeJS, Burning River Developers, there's plenty of others. Dont' be scared to go outside of your area of expertise. Check out some of the startup groups... LaunchHouse, Bizdom, Flash Starts.

</comment><comment><USER22> Pearmarket looks confusing, but honestly, just launch it. Remove stuff and ship.

btw, map doesn't load: [https://order.pearmarket.co/map](https://order.pearmarket.co/map)

About page is very very interesting, my suggestion: move the Offers and Needs to the frontpage, that looks like one of the most important things in the whole site.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the feedback. pearmarket.co was kind of thrown together for this small beta test we ran in november. I haven't taken the time to update it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> > I have looked into doing freelance work, but as I am self taught my CS > skills are not as solid as other developers, and my design skills are just > about average. I am more product focused, I try to work as closely to the > end user as possible and clearly define what they need.

A couple of points if you choose to go the freelance path:

1\. _Very_ few clients will care about your CS skills. If you can develop commercially viable solutions that work, which it sounds like you can, you're ahead of 90% the freelancers out there. Dirty secret: a lot of people with CS backgrounds don't write beautiful code and couldn't architect a commercially viable application on their own to save their lives.

2\. A lot of freelance developers are incapable of working with clients to shape product, and a lot who can don't like doing this work. The people who make the most money as solos are those who can craft solutions, not those who crank out code. So it sounds like you have skills and interests that would serve you well.

Good luck!

<comment><USER24> Very much agree with the second point. And not just how it relates to the actual project work, as a freelancer, you also need to be prepared to do a lot of things that aren't development. Tools and consultants are available to help, but invoicing, insurance (if applicable, depends on your client types), taxes, proposals, etc etc all have to be overseen by you if not actually done by you. Personally I have been fine with those tradeoffs, retaining a high degree of autonomy in exchange for some less than interesting tasks. But it's a tradeoff you have to be willing to make if freelancing is going to be the source of your livelihood.

Edit to add: especially if the target client js less than savvy, they're going to really appreciate working with a consultant who has the skillset the OP does. Frequently (and sometimes frustratingly) less savvy clients can take a very wide view of what a web consultant should be providing for them. Marketing as a product development and management guru can absolutely become a viable business as a freelancer. There are tons of other freelancers with other specialities whom you can sub to (if the budget and agreement allows) to fill out any gaps you may have in specific areas. Particularly things like design and UI that lend themselves to well-defined scopes and deliverables.

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> Freelancing is not about having top-tier CS skills or being an amazing designer. Those _help_ , but they aren't what gets you hired.

Companies will hire you because You Are A Likeable Person That Gets Shit Done.

Both of those things matter. If you have zero people skills, you will not close deals. And if you can't Get Shit Done, you will quickly poison your network, which is where the best jobs come from.

<comment><USER26> From my experience, having top-tier CS skills is definitely a harder requisite than being a "likeable person" in the hiring process. Yes, companies are looking for culture-fit and making sure you're not a total weirdo, but hard skills will always trump how sociable you are.

Additionally, "getting shit done" is very hard to measure unless the company is asking for contract work before extending an offer (which is rare) - so it again comes down to lots of technical questions which test your CS and language-specific skills.

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> It's funny to see how many comments advise about beginning a Start Up. Of course, this is a Start Up forum. If this was a farmers forum, would many advise about beginning a farm?

</comment><comment><USER28> 1) Sign up for unemployment. It takes a little while to start getting checks, but it will help extend your savings.

2) Relax a bit and get your head together.

3) Go on a trip (you'll be starting from scratch at a new company, so use the time for a bit of a vacation)

4) Polish your resume & LinkedIn profile

5) Broaden your horizons geographically and interview at lots of different locations around the country and choose something you love.

<comment><USER29> Please be aware that if you do (1) and also do (3) you may be committing Unemployment Insurance Fraud. Most states require you to not only be actively searching for work, but to be "Able and Available" to work and frequently investigations and audits turn up fraudulent UI claims on this basis. Even though much of job searching is online and can be done anywhere, the assumption is that if you are out of state, you weren't available to work in your home state that week.

Source: [http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/collecting- unemployme...](http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/collecting-unemployment- are-you-able-32445.html)

<comment><USER30> I did this. I highly recommend using the time to take a vacation. And by vacation, I mean searching for jobs in other states and countries.

I disagree with your interpretation of "able to available".

Even nolo is not 100% on this: Vacations and travel MAY mean you are "unavailable" to work.

I am not a lawyer, and this is only my non-lawyer non official, non- professional opinion of what I relied on for myself.

1) Jobs are available all over the country and all over the world. 2) If you are actively applying and interviewing and able and willing to take the next flight home in the event of an offer or unwillingness by a company to interview you over Skype.

So for me, I had a justification. If the state did not agree with me, I risked them taking the money back. I didn't exactly push it by mailing my claims in postmarked from a foreign country either. I found a way to get them mailed in from my home area as to not cause undue focus on me.

Bottom line. Go take that vacation.

<comment><USER31> I'm pretty sure that in some US statess, that's considered fraud. FYI. =)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> Always have a beer after getting laid off.

First off, how much cushion money do you have? Are you living paycheck to paycheck? Do you live in your parent's house? Roommates? Married? Kids? House?

How strong is your network? As in, how many people in the industry do you know? If you know a lot of people go freelance. How often do you get unsolicited job requests? If you get 1-2 a year then take some time off and work on a personal project without worrying about employment, while always keeping an ear to the ground.

Here's the thing, it's hard to give concrete advice without more info. But, in the end, as a Java programmer you're probably fine, don't sweat it, someone will hire you soon enough.

<comment><USER33> Java? didn't he say he was a Javascript developer

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> I've always told myself that if I'm ever laid off in my 20s or early 30s (at the latest) and I don't have kids yet or a mortgage then I'll become a dentist.

It's something I've always wanted to do, but I can't really justify giving up a great job with a great income to go back to school. But should I find myself unexpectedly without said job, then maybe I just would, unless other obligations prevent it.

My point is simply -- is there something for you which plays the equivalent role of dentistry? If so, maybe this is your opportunity to pursue it without feeling guilty about giving up a great job. If not, then I recommend following all the other advice here.

<comment><USER35> Start saving, study anything you can that would help you achieve that dream and just go for it. Don't waste your life away on the chance of being laid off.

</comment></comment><comment><USER36> "So I really have two questions. What would you do in my situation (would you stay in a smaller city?), and if you could start over in web development, what would you focus on?"

2 years ago I got laid off from a job I was at for almost 8 years. File for unemployment and make sure that's set. Clean up your resume and LinkedIn then enjoy some time off. For me, it was early July so it was nice to sit outside on the patio for a while. I freelanced through the summer, made a bit of money here and there - We survived until the following March when I found a job.

I don't think there is any starting over in development. Why through away any # of years of experience? If you can find a job using your existing skill set - awesome! If not - well, you've got 6 months to find a new language.

My primary language has always been PHP. I used it at the job I got laid off from as well as the 2 jobs I found after unemployment. Side projects are causing me to learn new languages / frameworks and I'm working on a big site in AngularJS myself. Will AngularJS open any doors for me? No idea - but it's another skill that'll go on my resume / LinkedIn for sure.

My current job and last job found me via LinkedIn - as much as most people I think like to hate it, it does have it's value. Spend some time there and see what you find.

<comment><USER37> File for unemployment, yes. Clean up your resume and LinkedIn, fine.

Enjoy some time off? Not so much.

If I understand correctly, he (she?) said that he only had a 3 month runway of money. In that situation, finding a job had better be your full-time job.

I mean, look, take a day off. Take two days. Take even a week. Breathe. Look around. Do a couple things you've wanted to do and haven't had time for.

But don't take a month off. You don't have that kind of time. After your bit of down time, work at hunting for a job as seriously as you would work at a full time job.

<comment><USER24> I was in a very similar situation about 6 months ago, but with even less of a runway (sidenote, lesson learned there). While taking a whole month as R&R time is not really adviseable (plus 12 new next big JS frameworks will come out in that time, right??), I will say that taking a week or even a few days as a brief pause is not a bad idea. I needed a few days to get my head on straight and to push through the less productive emotions that are inevitable in that situation. Though it sounds like the OP is already a lot less angry than I was.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> First, sorry to hear it, that sucks but it seems like you get that it isn't necessarily about you which is good. Sometimes people take it too personally, and usually it isn't personal, just business, but that doesn't mean it won't still sting some.

Second, javascript is a great skill to have and it is looked for quite a bit. Remote work isn't out of the question just because you aren't a degreed CS person. You said you have some savings. So take 1-2 weeks, polish up the resume, take it easy and start sending out resumes locally if you can find anything and also to remote positions. You might feel more comfortable starting to send out resumes right away and then taking a couple of weeks before you start a new gig, but either way, take a couple of weeks to decompress between jobs. I have skipped that in the past too many times and regretted it later. Also use that time to reassure your bride-to-be that all is good and will work out, tech is a great place to be.

Just a side note, I live in a small city and almost every client, job or thing I have done has been remote or outside my city, so it is very doable. If you go into freelancing, there is a thread from the other day on here about it, look it up under Ask HN, it has some good points from a lot of people.

</comment><comment><USER39> Hello fellow Clevelander! Sorry you were let go.

I hope you stay in Cleveland. I collected links of tech companies and job resources in the Cleveland area.

[http://faehnri.ch/cleveland-careers/](http://faehnri.ch/cleveland-careers/)

I don't know any one directly that is looking or could help you, but feel free to contact me if you think I can help you with anything.

</comment><comment><USER40> Angular is hot. You're very employable, in whatever capacity you want to be.

Post in the hiring/freelancer threads that come out Sunday (and January's, if you want). Apply to positions that interest you.

</comment><comment><USER41> We're a LAMP shop that is doing more and more angular. I contract with many HNers. Please email johnny d0t goodman @ cpap d07 com if interested in discussing further and setting up a fizzbuzz.

<comment><USER42> What does "setting up a fizzbuzz" mean?

<comment><USER43> "fizzbuzz" is coding exercise, used by companies looking to screen out applicants who claim to be able to code, but in fact cannot. The applicant is asked to write a short program that prints the numbers 1-100 (or whatever). When the number is divisible by 3, instead of printing it, print the word "fizz". When divisibly by 5, print "buzz". When divisible by both, print "fizzbuzz."

To anyone who actually can code, it seems ridiculous that people are applying to coding positions who can't come up with a solution to this, but anecdotally many hiring managers _routinely_ encounter such applicants. I suspect the parent here is using the term "set up a fizzbuzz" as shorthand for "set up some time to see if you can actually cross the bare minimum coding hurdle."

<comment><USER44> Still sounds like the developer version of the annoying "have your people call my people, let's do lunch" cliché.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> There should be a "Who's Hiring?" thread on HN in a few days which might give you some leads. I doubt there are many jobs in Cleavland, but there might be some remote job leads.

</comment><comment><USER46> > your situation

Staying in Cleveland depends on if you like Cleveland or not. Unsure about the opportunities there, but I have an inkling that there are more varied and interesting opportunities elsewhere.

Consider taking the opportunity to move somewhere that is going to be a great area for you to raise a child (if that is something in your future).

Not many people have the luxury (as we do in our industry) of being able to (mostly) freely choose where they work.

> starting over

I wouldn't do much differently. Any dev worth their chops can learn whatever the hot technology is these days. I'd focus on learning how to learn, how to communicate effectively based on your audience, and how to find interesting people that you can learn things from.

<comment><USER47> >Staying in Cleveland depends on if you like Cleveland or not.

This. I have no experience myself living in Cleveland, so I have no opinion on it, but from the outside it doesn't seem to have a lot to recommend it. In fact it's sometimes used as an example of a generic city. [1]

BUT if you [OP] have a strong network of friends there, that alone could be reason to stay.

If you're at all considering starting something new instead of just looking for another job, there are advantages to staying away from the coasts. With Google and others offering developers $200k+/year in compensation, it's hard to find good people to work with -- and you'd be farther from your network if it's primarily located in Cleveland.

But _look_ at your network and figure out where it's concentrated. If you do know a lot of people in another location, it's a prime opportunity to move there.

And if you are looking for a new job, the coasts are _great_ for that. I know I could have my choice of job if I were willing to work on the coasts. I'm in the Boulder area now, though, and I'm not leaving -- though I'm working remotely for a company on the coasts. [2]

For me, I decided to move to Boulder because Boulder is awesome. I grew up in California, but hated the congestion and insane housing market. The K-12 schooling system left a lot to be desired as well (again, if you're looking at kids as an eventuality).

But Boulder was partly an attraction because I have family here; take your own situation into account and figure out what you want. There is a lot of tech in the Boulder/Denver area, so that's one option, but there are fewer big companies offering crazy salaries (Google has a Boulder office, but it's not nearly as huge of a presence here).

Good luck!

[1] e.g. "America has only three cities: New York, San Francisco, and New Orleans. Everywhere else is Cleveland." -- Tennessee Williams

[2] Full details of my working arrangements are more complicated than that, but not relevant.

<comment><USER48> You do make a very good point that there are opportunities outside of Cleveland -- and Boulder _is_ awesome! -- but Cleveland does have things to recommend it.

My sister-in-law works part-time for a tech company in Cleveland. The cost of living is insanely low (like $400/mo for an entire house in some places) and that allows her to be a full-time artist without needing a full-time job to live. I'd imagine the low cost of living would also make it easier for a freelancer to be selective about clients, should OP choose to take that route.

Many of these Rust Belt and Midwestern cities are becoming centers of hipsterdom. Who would have thought ten years ago that you would see young people moving to Pittsburgh, Detroit, Des Moines, or Omaha to start trendy restaurants and open art galleries? But now I see the reason: it's cheap to live, you can probably afford to buy a house, the public schools are decent, and there's a small community of likeminded people who'd rather do meaningful things than stay on the work treadmill to afford SF or NYC. The same thing is happening in Cleveland, at least from what I've seen.

<comment><USER49> The Cleveland food scene has had a pretty remarkable renaissance over the past few years. Downtown is growing as more people live there (occupancy rates upwards of 99% as apartments can't be converted fast enough to meet demand). We have seed accelerators. The arts are perfectly fine here. University Circle has more cultural and art institutions within one square mile than any other square mile in the country. There is plenty of live music and touring acts come here frequently.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER50> Sounds eerily similar to my situation a month ago. I'm 28, grew up in Cleveland, worked mostly with Angular, and was let go the other month too.

I'd start sewing seeds in every direction and see what takes root. Apply to jobs locally, and all over the country. You only have to consider moving if you get an offer. You can try kickstarter or getting an angel investor if you want to try your own software. Freelancing kinda sucks unless you have connections. It's hard to differentiate yourself and get a decent rate if you are just another person online. But again, you can give oDesk a shot and see how it fares.

</comment><comment><USER51> Hey man, I feel your pain. I was just let go today, as well! Along with 40% of this company.

I was laid off last year so this is my second time going through this in a year. I can tell you, I'm not nearly as worried this time around.

A lot of places need good developers, and I already have recruiters calling me. If you end up needing a 9-5 you can get one.

Me, I think I'm going to put everything into my side project. Then follow my dreams and move down to South America for a while and backpack.

Hopefully, I can pick up some part-time remote work along the way.

</comment><comment><USER52> You're in Cleveland? Email me, I know someone local who might be able to give you advice and leads.

</comment><comment><USER53> Every 1st of the month, there are a few hiring posts here on HN - [https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=whoishiring](https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=whoishiring)

The next one is tomorrow (1 Feb). Make sure you post to them, saying you're looking for work.

And yes, you can get freelance work as a self-taught programmer. Most people I know do exactly that.

If you do Ruby/Rails in addition to Javascript, I might have some work for you. Email's in my profile.

</comment><comment><USER54> This could be a good thing.

Step 1: Register a business

Step 2: Get a domain and some cheap hosting

Step 3: Start building an MVP

Congratulations, you are now working on a "boot-strapped startup". But with Step 3, you can spend your time learning about full-stack web development. You'll have to learn some back-end stuff, improve your front-end stuff, design, art, graphics, etc.

Once your MVP is up and running, then you'll have to move into sales and marketing and learn that part of the business. Come up with some kind of monetization strategy and implement it as part of the product.

While doing all this, split your time between building this thing up, and applying for your next gig. Bonus, when your MVP is up, put it on your resume so future employers can go see it and eliminate that gap in employment right off your resume.

You now have a portfolio, business experience, sales & marketing experience, executive experience, product development, design, QA, art, improved technical skills and no gap on your resume since you've "been working" the entire time.

There are many employers who would kill to have employees with that kind of experience, and it shows you can turn a minus into an opportunity.

Bonus, if you can't find a job, keep plugging away at it and maybe your startup will turn into something.

</comment><comment><USER55> I don't have any advice but wanted to note that this is a very well written ask HN: clear, with all the relevant info, and to-the-point.

</comment><comment><USER56> Also, remember, 1st February is coming. First of every month there is a who is hiring thread here on HN. Lots of JS jobs. Keep an eye out

</comment><comment><USER57> Sounds like you're in a fine position to follow some dreams and set yourself for a future in either startups or freelancing (both of which offer a lot of freedom).

> would you stay in a smaller city?

I think you should. Your cost of living is _much_ lower there than what it would be in a major metro, so it's much easier to afford a great life (especially if you're looking to build a family).

It sounds like doing some contracting would be a great opportunity for you. Generally nobody screens contractors for their CS skills—what matters is that you can execute. Also, having a product-driven focus can be a major asset: user empathy is one of the biggest things I look for in developers.

If you're interested in working on some Javascript for Cafe.com, I've hired a number of contractors of HN and would be happy to talk to you. firstname.lastname@example.com

</comment><comment><USER58> You're getting a lot of fantastic ideas and advice. You're in the position to cherry pick any that makes sense to you. Best of luck in landing your next gig!

My suggestion is to go to meetup.com and look for groups you'd be interested in. Then spend time mingling with those people. I was going to add tips for how to network effectively, but I don't want to assume - you may already be good at it!

Here's a link of meetups in your area related to startups: [http://www.meetup.com/find/?allMeetups=false&keywords=startu...](http://www.meetup.com/find/?allMeetups=false&keywords=startup&radius=25&userFreeform=Cleveland%2C+Ohio%2C+USA&mcId=c44101&sort=recommended&eventFilter=mysugg)

</comment><comment><USER59> Hey fellow Clevelander here, if you're interested just last week someone hit me up for some long term (3-6 months) JS contract work. Contact info in profile, I have a line on a couple other opportunities but this one might float you while you figure out your situation

</comment><comment><USER60> In terms of your bootstrapped business, if you haven't already found some of these resources, have a look:

* [http://www.startupsfortherestofus.com/](http://www.startupsfortherestofus.com/) \- great weekly podcast with a transcript.

* Nice, focused, friendly forum: [http://discuss.bootstrapped.fm/](http://discuss.bootstrapped.fm/)

* Book by the guys who did the podcast above that I would _highly_ recommend to pretty much anyone: [http://www.amazon.com/Start-Small-Stay-Developers-Launching/...](http://www.amazon.com/Start-Small-Stay-Developers-Launching/dp/0615373968?tag=dedasys-20)

Those should be enough to lead you to other resources.

</comment><comment><USER31> * I would stay in the smaller city, and look for work in a larger city amenable to your future spouse. It is very important to me to always have a pool of local work in the case that my current company becomes my previous company.

* I am personally not fond of webdev, so no reply.

I would suggest eyeballing odesk for their contract work, as you can find reasonable work in the > 1K range - for small odesk jobs you can make more at MickyD's. Better take that unemployment insurance.

Also, I'd personally suggest not making any major decisions until Monday morning, after you've slept on it, thought about it, and so forth. My experience is that my judgement is impaired in highly emotional moments.

</comment><comment><USER61> Maybe check out Farmlogs. It sounds like you could be a great fit. We're in Ann Arbor so not too far away either.

[https://farmlogs.com/jobs/front-end- engineer/](https://farmlogs.com/jobs/front-end-engineer/)

</comment><comment><USER62> > I have looked into doing freelance work, but as I am self taught my CS > skills are not as solid as other developers, and my design skills are just > about average. I am more product focused, I try to work as closely to the > end user as possible and clearly define what they need.

in my experience unless you are interviewing for a huge silicon valley company, most companies don't get into the nitty gritty of algos. and data structures. rather they will ask more fundamental front-end questions like 'what does this refer to in js' and 'what is prototypical inheritance' and might have you do a small project to showcase your skills.

</comment><comment><USER63> I don't have much actionable advice, but - this is a good time to be a JS dev. If you just built an Angular app you should be in demand. I bet you are pretty shaken, so just keep in mind that you're overall in a good spot.

Good luck out there, sorry to hear it. For whatever it's worth, I know people who got fired from jobs that turned out to be the best thing that ever happened to them.

I am from Pittsburgh. I would recommend moving west for all sorts of reasons, but I know that's not realistic for everyone. Look into it if you can.

</comment><comment><USER33> This was probably for the best. I'd suggest you take some time to really think of what you want to be doing. If you're gonna work for another company now is the time to choose it wisely. Or if you're gonna go the freelancer way, it's also a good time to promote yourself as one. I wouldn't tell you what to choose because that really depends on what type of person you are. Do you like being around people?, are you good working by yourself, etc.

</comment><comment><USER27> I would live in a big city with plenty of opportunities. Find an interesting job, where to work no more than 20 hours a week, and earn around 60K. I think your Angular experience is very marketable. And you can always tell your prospective employers the truth, that you made an application too good to keep working there for maintaining it at your salary level. Then use your free time for whatever you want, including meeting lots of people. You could find cofounders...

</comment><comment><USER64> Sorry to here about what happened, but when one door closes another will open!

We're hiring senior/mid JS developers (Angular specifically) out in sunny San Francisco. If you want to relocate please send an email to Zak.Brown [at] target.com

Don't worry, the position is for a tech company recently bought by Target and not actually Target itself.

If relocating isn't your thing, I would always recommend freelancing, as JS is in demand. Be your own boss, you owe it to yourself to at least try it.

</comment><comment><USER65> I got linked this article ([https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/6-things-id-do-i- got-laid-off...](https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/6-things-id-do-i-got-laid-off- ibm-j-t-o- donnell?_mSplash=1&midToken=AQF5ReDV8_sJHw&trk=eml-b2_content_ecosystem_digest- recommended_articles-165-null&fromEmail=fromEmail&ut=3rbMVP6ac5OSA1)) today, actually. Thought it had some interesting thoughts.

</comment><comment><USER66> I have no compsci - I would recommend you do some interviewing to find out what you don't know and fill in the gaps on coursera. Mostly the stanford algorithms 1 course will ensure you have what you need to interview IMO. Apart from that, I don't see much else you miss compared to your compsci peers that isn't directly obtained by work experience and effort.

</comment><comment><USER67> If you don't mind doing freelance work you will probably find it surprisingly easy. Offer your skills to design shops; they tend to be strong in design but weak in engineering.. the best part is that a lot of them will build their designs into flat html; so you just implement their html and css and do the backend work.

If you can build stuff; you are ready for freelance work.

</comment><comment><USER68> > I would say I am 3 months of solid work away from having a good beta. I do > not see this as an option as it would clear out most of my savings, and > leave me in mostly the same position I am in now.

That won't be enough. You have to count with at least a year, if you are very lucky, for your own start up to start generating revenue.

</comment><comment><USER69> If you do become interested in another fulltime job, we are in downtown Cleveland and are looking for a full stack web developer and an iOS developer. We're a profitable startup in the broadcast space. Small development team. Good people.

Send me an email if you're interested; it's in my profile.

</comment><comment><USER70> Just a vote of confidence and a thumbs up from another self-taught programmer. Don't forget that we are very desirable in our industry, having demonstrated a fantastic ability to assimilate core skills as self-starters (instead of needing these skills spoon-fed). Good luck!

</comment><comment><USER71> I'm not sure what the market is like in Cleveland, but in Columbus there is a great demand for web developers. I work out of a coworking place there with several freelance web developers and I'd be happy to put you in touch with them if you're interested.

</comment><comment><USER72> I am in Cleveland and know a few of the local startups and such. You can drop me a line if you want.

</comment><comment><USER73> Hey, send me a message so we can chat - our company is looking for talented JavaScript developers.

[https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=43649275](https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=43649275)

www.helloinnovation.com

</comment><comment><USER74> I can relate, I'm 29 just engaged and I feel my job will be disappearing here pretty soon. Self taught dev, and average design skills. If there is anything you want to work on I can help.

s a n c h o k d @ g m a i l . c o m

</comment><comment><USER75> I work for a small web dev startup in Boulder, CO. I'm going to post in tomorrow's HN Hiring thread for a JS Dev. If you're interested, shoot me an email (address is in my profile).

</comment><comment><USER76> If you're interested in Chicago: GoHealth is hiring Javascript devs. (We're looking for those with Angular Experience)

If thats cool then contact our internal recruiter, Gina, at: firstname.lastname@example.com

</comment><comment><USER77> If I had the chance I would spend one or two days doing nothing, the next few days thinking of what I wanted to do... making a plan. Then would start walking towards my goals.

</comment><comment><USER78> Chicago has an awesome start-up community. Check out [http://www.builtinchicago.org/](http://www.builtinchicago.org/).

</comment><comment><USER79> Hey thecolorblue, if you are interested in some contract work I'd like to talk to you. You can find contact info in my hn profile.

</comment><comment><USER80> You should contact GrubMarket and apply to work for them - they are YC + funded + in the same space as PearMarket. firstname.lastname@example.com

</comment><comment><USER26> Sounds like working full time on your project or freelancing aren't great options, so just get another job?

</comment><comment><USER81> Was the headline of this edited to change "laid off" to "let go" or am I seeing things?

</comment><comment><USER82> Send me your resume on email@example.com if you want to move to SF Bay area and work at Postmates

</comment><comment><USER83> File for unemployment. There is a waiting period. The money always helps.

</comment><comment><USER84> Make sure your severance is fair. If not, consult a lawyer ASAP.

</comment><comment><USER85> Sign up for Hired.com, move to the Bay, make bank and love your life.

</comment><comment><USER86> Older and bit WISER elder. THE RULES OF LIFE, imho. your mileage will varyy a LOT. fiction, of course. LOL

1.) DREAM BIG. don't limit yourself. if i had your skillsets i would pitch mish shedlock directly. no endorsement, no conflicts of interest. do the top 20 financial blogs.

2.) mish shedlock? who is this guy. career changer and former cobol programmer who got KICKED INTO THE REAL WORLD. Welcome 'brave and sad new world.' this is a literary allusion. LOL

3.) philosophy. does sad come first or the brave? rhetorical question, my dear Mr. Ut. Opian (LOL) first. "self taught my CS skills are not as solid" COMPLETE RUBBISH. THE BEST are self-taught and self-teachers. I, myself did barcamp.org and i prefer to teach the teachers FOR FREE. Because I get back ten times the investment.

Oh, by the way, when I am CEO, I always have a small interview trick i play on the applicants, like you. I LOVE MY FAMILY AND my 'future children.' SO MY MOTIVATION is extremely high. some companies will try to negotiate you down. AKA kicking you while you are down. Others and most will change the 'social contract' or even the job description. THAT MEANS even if you have the job or future job, these companies are TRASH.

LOok only for the gold. Where the CEO says, I understand. been there myself. WHATEVER happens, whether you get a job here or not, we continue the GREAT JOURNEY that is your life. repeat WE. we even recommend you to our competitors.

5,) don't be AFRAID of taking food stamps. for even those with a college degree... welcome to the USA.

6.)thank you for your open source.

7.)the standard in wall street, nyc, ny, USA is 250 dials. that is COLD CALLS. Sure, linkkd in and networking works. Rule NUMBER 20. Always call on weekends, 6am, etc. The secretary screens the calls when she comes in a 8:30am. THE REAL WORKERS will pick up the phone.

22.) obviously moving is difficult. been there done that. there are many CAREER actors. GENIUSES, they NEVER got there first break until moving to the large city, LA.

23.)plenty of folks are sleeping in their cars /trailers in new york or the big city, which will really suck when it snows.

how amusing. mostly big city, engineering, cellphone and software but I STILL WANNA make big money and move to the SMALL FARM COUNTRY WHERE YOU ARE.

ps. now go back and sell a small RIDICULOUS small amount contract to your former employer. IF YOUR CODE IS A BAD as you think it is. (FOR IT IS NOT) then there is a great demand for your patching the codebase.

get together with unemployed lawyers and write numerous weasel words into the contract. My favorite is time dependent upon prior commitments to non-profits EXPLAIN non-profits are not competitors) and your top priority is the contract.

When the time comes at Saturday night when their website and e-commerce engine crashes, YOU ARE CALLED. Make sure that you are working on that non-profit work, UNTIL THE COMPANY JUST HAPPENS TO DECIDE THAT additional lucrative contracts are issued.

THEY WILL NOT CALL YOU UNTIL THE LAST RESORT. Isn't that the case, fellow CEOs?

i cite as case history the cobol programmer MISH SHEDLOCK. no endorsement and I am not selling you gold (literally).

CAREER: difficult code >> good job lasts only 6 years >> this is COBOL >> capitalism boom/bust cycle >> layoffs so only the best survive >> MANUFACTURING GOESE TO CHINA >> bank IBM (you know the names) crash because the OLD LEGACY CODE finally MEMORY LEAKS over ten years

>> PANIC and sudden need for FORMER EMPLOYEES.

freelance is great, but only in order to gather INTELLIGENCE. Remeber, you will competing with the so called OBAMACARE website, where the Javascript comments are in Gujurat.

get together with your community college teachers, who are from INDIA and ask them to translate the comment sections in Gujurat, which is a POVERTY section of India.

LOL. you think your skillsets are low, wait till you get to the world. Please BUY my second hand Yugo car (the one that tends to go on fire.)

LOL

</comment><comment><USER87> www.hired.com

</comment><comment><USER88> File for funemployment.. drink wine.. make art.

<comment><USER89> ...while reaching out across your personal and professional network. If I were in your situation, which I have been (let go from a development job), I would file for unemployment while searching for another job everywhere you go.

Do everything it takes to prove to other firms that you got the programming skills to pay the bills (as Weird Al would say). Use the funemployment money to sustain life.

I can also tell you what not to do. Do not move back in with your parents if their hometown is small. I did this and I languished.

</comment></comment><comment><USER90> First, this is common and it's not a big deal.

Layoffs happen, even to great developers. Ask about severance, but don't get pushy or threatening if not offered it (you don't want an extortion rap). Ask about a guaranteed positive reference (by contract, and with LinkedIn recommendations) and _do_ be pushy or threatening if not offered it. Have your references checked in any case by a third party. Don't sign non-disparagement for less than 3 months' severance, although you should almost never disparage an ex-employer. Do sign non-litigation if offered a positive reference and a cash severance you can accept (which may be zero, if you have savings and confidence).

Take a week or two to recover, emotionally, but no more. Being unemployed on dwindling savings is no fun, so get yourself in the game immediately before you start getting depressed or moody or whatever. Work so hard that you don't have time to get moody. Looking for work _is_ your new job. Job searches have a lot of latency and you can work on your side projects while you wait for emails and calls to get returned (otherwise, you'll go fucking nuts refreshing your email client).

Describe your situation as a layoff for economic reasons (even if it wasn't) and say that your performance reviews were excellent (even if they weren't) and don't say anything negative about former colleagues, managers, or employers except in a you-or-them situation (such as a 6-month job, where _someone_ will come off looking bad and your job is to make sure that it's not you... but even then, minimize what you say.)

 _What would you do in my situation (would you stay in a smaller city?)_

Take your job search national. It's not about "leaving Cleveland". A good company will give you at least $5k post-tax for relocation. (Add $4-5k for NYC because rental brokers collect 15% on tenant side.) It's about going where the jobs are. Obviously some locales are better than others. Seattle, Boulder, Austin, and Chicago have strong tech markets and (relative to SF or NYC) moderate cost of living. NYC is an option if you don't need a lot of space and you're willing to downsize on furniture. If you choose NYC, include the broker fee (again, 15% of a year's rent) and loss-on-sale for your car (you'll be getting rid of it) in your relo calculations. San Francisco... some love it, some hate it, and I doubt I'd move there without a stellar offer (I'm 31) but if you find something out there, give it a go.

 _if you could start over in web development, what would you focus on?_

Don't fret about starting over. You can't and that's a good thing. The knowledge you've gained is more transferrable than you think. But if I were to start over, I'd jump either into the Python or the Clojure stack (and maybe move to Haskell after 2+ years if I really wanted to build extremely robust, large systems).

<comment><USER91> _Describe your situation as a layoff for economic reasons (even if it wasn 't) and say that your performance reviews were excellent (even if they weren't) and don't say anything negative about former colleagues, managers, or employers except in a you-or-them situation (such as a 6-month job, where someone will come off looking bad and your job is to make sure that it's not you... but even then, minimize what you say.)_

Why?

</comment></comment><comment><USER92> Near as I can tell, you sound a bit like my javascript skills - that's not where I choose to focus though. My CTO, co-founder (we got rejected by Ycombinator, but, also applied super late) is a self taught programmer who, if you read what he writes, doesn't know a whole lot.

However, he's a genius. I'm 100% certain you have skills you aren't aware of, at your age, non "Tech," town, well, it's always possible you're better than us in the valley.

Write down what you want to do. Step, by step. Start a business or be an employee? Caution: too much self employment makes people not want to hire you as an employee. Ever. I was self employed for five years, took six months to find a job; this time, took that long so I'm staying self employed because groveling and begging isn't what I'm about.

I might be starving, but, I have dignity.

Next, after you have those goals identified, it's time to review the financial options, talk it through with your fiancee ideally so you're both on the same page (my ex-wife of 13 years was also the co-founder of my first 10 businesses, trust me, it sucks to lose a wife, or a business partner - <USER2> worse when you lose both).

Consider doing contracting, don't worry about it being on your resume, or not, while you explore and make enough money to slowly pad the bank account.

Since you did mention angular, and even though we're broke, we have a very powerful, open source social media & SEO tool that we're giving away. The project is gaining a lot of traction and if you contribute even a bit, we can definitely help promote you and your skills.

Plus, if some nice VC decides that my team and I are going to take over the world, we hire remote and don't have a central office. 3 team members now, hiring an intern next week who's a PhD candidate with experience in natural language processing.

Contact info in profile, and whatever you do, make sure it's your dreams you are following. Only those will lead to any kind of meaningful happiness.

</comment><comment><USER93> > I built a large angular application while there, but it is now built and > there are other developers who can support it.

what startup/company was this again?</comment>


What web service would you pay for? - <AUTHOR>

What web service would you pay for? <comment><USER2> I'm sort of shocked how much I've been paying for web services these days -- usually it's always something that replaces software that use to be desktop based like QuickBooks. It also has to be of a high quality -- that or a situation where they're holding my data hostage and it's hard to export (Flickr is a very good example of this as I paid for the premium membership and now lacking time and a fear of loss I can't seem to stop giving them $$$).

</comment><comment><USER3> API to make receiving stuff via emails (user sends email to create a blogpost/...) very, very easy. You cleanup incoming data, handle attachments, block spam etc. And cheap.

Less coding for me = good.

<comment><AUTHOR> Could you explain your point more?

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> I don't know if there is anyone also paying for proxy services these days.

</comment><comment><USER4> hellofax.com -- if they allowed credits vs monthly costs</comment>


Fascinating look at Stuxnet attack on Iranian nuclear facilities - <AUTHOR> http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/11/26/secret-agent-crippled-irans-nuclear-ambitions/ <comment><USER2> Interesting definition of a zero-day exploit.

</comment><comment><USER3> This is insane.</comment>


Early Impressions of Rust from a Go Programmer - <AUTHOR> https://coded.io/2020/02/early-impressions-of-rust-from-a-go-programmer/ <comment><USER2> Very nice write up. I liked the point that Result and Option types would fit nicely into Go and totally agree. Now that I've used rust, languages without Result / Option / match expressions feel weak and dangerous.

</comment><comment><USER3> > Explicit interfaces. In Go, you cannot have multiple functions with the same > name. Because of how this interacts with implicit interfaces, if two > interfaces you need to implement require a method with the same name, it > gets very hard to manage. Normally this is not an issue, but I also like > being explicit about things.

This was recently fixed in Go 1.14: [https://golang.org/doc/go1.14#language](https://golang.org/doc/go1.14#language)

<comment><AUTHOR> Oh cool, I missed this in the 1.14 release notes. This partially fixes it, but it's not easy to implement multiple interfaces with overlapping functions because you still can't implement multiple functions on the same type with the same name.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> nice article!</comment>


The Best Math Book for Aspiring High Schoolers (IMHO) - <AUTHOR> http://www.ams.org/notices/199803/comm-bkrev-blank.pdf

<comment><USER3> I have a copy and dip into it regularly. As I read I can't help but see Tom's enthusiastic lecturing style. Although it's now 25 years since I took lectures from him, and more recent contact has been purely social, I am always impressed and humbled by his breadth and depth of understanding, and his ability to make material approachable. Understanding becomes your task - <USER2> has done everything possible.

Not everyone will like every part of this book, and it's not a book of study. For understanding the range and scope of mathematics, and for seeing the thought processes in action, it's excellent.

I recommend it unreservedly.

</comment><comment><USER4> This is a review of said book, which is here: [http://www.amazon.com/Pleasures-Counting-T-W- Körner/dp/05215...](http://www.amazon.com/Pleasures-Counting-T-W- Körner/dp/0521568234/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1248330184&sr=8-1)

<comment><USER5> Why not link to the book's page on Google Books? It has a better preview than Amazon's:

<http://books.google.com/books?id=wUdtVHBr-OQC></comment></comment>


The 64-core Parallella is alive - <AUTHOR> http://www.adapteva.com/parallella-kickstarter/the-64-core-parallella-is-alive/ <comment><USER2> They are making a _critical_ mistake here by not letting users pre-order the next batch. It says "Sold Out" and you can't do anything else. They could make hundreds or thousands of sales over the next day or two due to their free launch publicity, but they're fucking blocking everyone from paying for it.

Most of the folks like me who _would have bought something today_ while reading about it will just forget about it later. These guys are missing out on a huge opportunity.

<comment><USER3> > They are making a critical mistake here by not letting users pre-order the > next batch.

It's possible that we can thank the FTC for this:

 _The Federal Trade Commission's (FTC's) Mail or Telephone Order Rule covers all merchandise ordered by mail, phone, over the internet, or via the fax machine. It stipulates that, if a merchant does not promise a specific delivery time, the merchandise ordered must be delivered within 30 days of the merchant's receipt of the order (or the date merchandise is charged to your credit card). If the company is unable to ship within the promised time, the company must give the buyer the choice of agreeing to the delay or canceling the order and receiving a prompt refund. However, if you are applying for credit to pay for your purchase and a company doesn 't promise a shipping time, the company has 50 days to ship after receiving your order._

[http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~scas/wp/wordpress/?page_id=24](http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~scas/wp/wordpress/?page_id=24)

In other words, in the United States, it is not legal to take pre-orders, and incur a delay, without offering customers their money back. So 100,000 pre- orders could come in, and in case of a delay -- since they are forced to offer a refund -- they could lose, potentially, all of their funding.

Imagine ordering parts for 100,000 boards and having 50% of your customers take their money and run, in case of a delay. That's a fairly unmanageable risk.

<comment><USER4> Set the delivery date with plenty of extra padding, and have your software move the date forward as more pre-orders come in.

<comment><USER5> ^- that. Simple and let users have a choice

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> If you haven't heard of Parallella before (like me) and want to learn more: [http://www.parallella.org/](http://www.parallella.org/)

Edit: Ok, here's my quick summary. Please correct me if I'm wrong:

This looks like a small PCB (raspberrypi-alike) that sits the main attraction: a 16- or 64-core Epiphany coprocessor, as well as an ARM cpu to run the OS. Not sure how these relate in performance to other coprocessors (GPUs with OpenCL?). Power draw seems low (5W). Would love to read more about the architecture, why Epiphany processors are special, etc.

<comment><USER7> It's a dual ARM core Zynq SoC + the Epiphany. The Zynq has an on-die FPGA. Part of the FPGA is used for "glue" for the Epiphany, but you can update the FPGA config as well, with some care.

The main CPU is substantially faster than the Pi, but it doesn't have HW accelerated graphics, so it's not a speed daemon for desktop/workstation type use.

As for the Epiphany, assume that it'll be slower than most GPU's for tasks that GPU's are good for. That is, if you can make do with few instruction streams, the Epiphany is not well suited for it, as most GPUs will blow the current chips out of the water in terms of performance.

If, on the other hand, your problem is poorly suited for GPUs due to lots of independent instruction streams, it may be better suited.

One of the most interesting aspects of the Epiphany is that is can also be connected into a grid - each chip has four high speed links that can be connected to other Epiphany chips, or be used to interface with the main CPU or off-chip memory.

The cores can all access each-others memory without any special instructions, including that of the cores on other Epiphany chips that are hooked up via the external links - the only difference between in-core and out-of-core memory access is the speed.

<comment><USER8> If you set up a grid, how is cache coherency handled and what's the impact on performance?

<comment><USER9> I'd imagine it works like a Transputer, and the only accessible memory is local to the chip, with communications including data coming down the serial links.

<comment><USER7> The chips have a flat address space that covers any Epiphany chips that have been interconnected via the serial links, and the main memory of the CPU.

You can address core-local memory, memory in another core, or main memory the same way - the difference is speed.

There's no cache, and you're responsible for avoiding race conditions in memory access yourself.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I was informed a few days ago that my 16 core Parallella has shipped; I had hoped, when I ordered, that it would come earlier in the year before exams but the fact that it shipped- several kickstarters which did not deliver have made me wary- has me ecstatic to hold it in my hands.

I have a great amount of respect for the Parallella team: to be able to kickstart a custom chip, that promises very interesting applications, and deliver it within several months of the estimated delivery date with the setbacks they have had is absolutely astonishing for me. While I can't comment on the quality of the final product yet, I would say that they know how to run an excellent campaign.

<comment><USER11> Mine shipped a few days ago as well. Sadly they seemed to have completely ignored my address change request and the board is shipping to my old address in another country. Grrr.

<comment><USER12> They did the same thing to me, too. I live in California and my board has arrived safely in DC where I used to live. Unbelievable given the difference in timeline from what they originally set out.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> > the 64-core Parallella is still setting the standard in terms of energy > efficiency. In fact, it could be argued that it's the most efficient > computer in the world today

I'd be curious if it beats GreenArrays ([http://www.greenarraychips.com/](http://www.greenarraychips.com/)) numbers of picojoules per operation. I wonder if those numbers are published for Parallela?

<comment> daniel-cussen I work a lot on GreenArrays, and I highly, highly doubt this claim. An F18 core has 1152 bits of SRAM on it, much less than these cores, which I believe I read have 32 KB. Moreover, while the Parallella is clocked (like almost every computer out there) the F18 is asynchronous.

From reading the parallella docs, it looks like that chips runs 5 W on a "typical workload" while the GA144 runs .25 W at an absolute theoretical maximum, for a 20x difference in energy consumption.

[http://www.parallella.org/board/](http://www.parallella.org/board/)

<comment><USER14> The parallella supports floating point though. I don't know how fast the GreenArrays run, but a factor of 20 doesn't seem impossible for a floating point intensive program. More on-chip memory can be beneficial too, if it helps to avoid accesses to off-chip memory. Of course, the unqualified claim from parallella is pretty useless…

<comment> daniel-cussen Parent asked about energy consumption, not speed.

You can program in floating point (I'm doing just that, with 6 cores performing Karatsuba-3 multiplication of 54-bit elements) but that is quite a bit slower than hardware DP multing (which Parallella boards lack too). FP multing will likewise be slower than hardware FP multing, which Parallella does have.

<comment><USER14> Sure, you can do floating point in software. My point is that dedicated hardware is very likely more power efficient at it. The same goes for memory: accesses to off-chip memory cost much more energy than accesses to on-chip memory. It would be very interesting to get energy and performance numbers for some real world application running on both chips.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Pardon the ignorance but are all 64 cores available to the OS -- as in, if I run htop, will I see 64 little bars at the top of the terminal? I would think not if I'm understanding this architecture correctly...

<comment><USER16> I don't think an OS is intended to run on the Parallela chip at all; it's more of an accelerator.

<comment><USER17> Dumb question. How is this different from the cell processor in the ps3?

<comment><USER7> The Cell SPE's are not as general purpose. They're SIMD processors (single- instruction, multiple-data), and don't have transparent access to host memory or the other cores (for some of the Parallella demo's, you can exit the main program and watch the Epiphany cores continue to DMA data straight to the frame-buffer).

They're more similar to a GPU than to the Epiphany. Each SPE is more powerful in terms of Gflops, but the Epiphany CPU's offer more independent instruction streams. If your problem is basically well suited for a GPU (easy to vectorize) chances are it will probably do better on a Cell than the current Epiphany's. If your problem has lots of independent branching, the Epiphany stands a better chance.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> I'm looking forward to getting mine. I ordered it back in October and they recently said the Zynq-2010 based boards would be shipped in mid-May. I wish they would have been more up front about the delays. There were long periods where there was no communication from the company. I didn't order through Kickstarter but directly from Adapteva.

<comment><USER19> What do you intend to use it for? Is there a hobbyist application for these?

<comment><USER18> I am interested in parallel computation and computer architectures and thought it would be fun to experiment with. I have worked on some projects developing signal processing algorithms for large GPU arrays and I want to see how the Parallela compares. I plan on implementing a real time audio watermarking algorithm and some image/video processing algorithms.

<comment><USER20> I'd love to see someone design a unique synthesizer (audio) algorithm for these things - hope you'll keep HN updated with any progress you make in that direction.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> Excellent! Congratulations! Can't wait to get my hands on the 64 core version! :-)

</comment><comment><USER22> I was hoping to buy a few of their 16-core model for a commercial application, and have been in touch with Adapteva but got no reply. It seems like they really don't have the ability to supply the demand for their product.

</comment><comment><USER23> What do you think about this + Haskell video encoder / decoder? I'm a little ignorant about media processing, but I guess it to be processors scalable with the right encoder / decoder, am I wrong?

</comment><comment><USER24> as soon as julia gets running on ARM this is going to make for some monster high-level scientific programming kit.

</comment><comment><USER25> Clueless newbie here.

I see this thing does OpenCL on a completely different architecture. Recent tesseract ocr versions supports opencl. Will I be able to run tesseract on this thing? Would I even want to?

<comment><USER26> in principle, yes, but the parallela board isn't exactly the fastest of all the embedded boards.

also, OpenCL apparently isn't the preferred programming model for the epiphany, so performance wont be as good as bare-metal (but that is practically a tautology for any OpenCL device..)

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> As a theoretical pie-in-the-sky question, what is the minimum amount of energy required to do an operation ?

<comment><USER28> If you are willing to reverse it the amount of energy can be 0 or a close approximation.

See: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reversible_computing](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reversible_computing)

Note that this is the computing equivalent of a straight line.

<comment><USER27> Would that be related to the reversible computing I heard about a few years ago, in terms of reserving the energy?

<comment><USER28> Recovering would be a better term I think. You could read the wikipedia article to see if it is what you remembered.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> Is Parallella alive? I put in an order more than 18 months ago and still nothing.

Related question: is Erlang running on Parallella yet?

I remain very interested - 64 or even 16 cores on a small form factor would be incredible.

<comment><USER30> I got mine today.

I don't have the video cable yet and still have to attach the heat sink. They'd really like you to have a fan, so I have some work to assemble one.

[http://www.parallella.org/quick-start/](http://www.parallella.org/quick- start/)

<comment><USER7> It does work with just the heat sink, but if you want to keep it on for extended periods, the fan is probably a good idea.

I can recommend this kit for a case/fan: [http://shop.abopen.com/](http://shop.abopen.com/) \- that fan is enough to keep everything feeling cool to the touch.

The design is on Github too, if you want to do your own (and if nothing else the instructions shows you how to hook up a 5v fan directly to the board)

It takes some assembly and very light soldering, but not more than that you can get away with any crappy soldering iron and ideally a pair of wire cutters (but scissors will do)

<comment><USER30> Very useful, especially the 5v on the board. Might have missed that. Thanks</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Steps to be taken to incorporate a new company in India - <AUTHOR> http://mca.gov.in/Ministry/steps.html

<comment><USER2> Actual steps I followed to incorporate.

1\. Pay a Chartered Accountant INR 25K(~500USD). SIgn some papers. 2\. Wait a week for papers to arrive 3\. Receive papers of incorporation.

<comment><USER3> Well ya, That's easy to say if you are working, but 25k is a pretty huge amount in India for youngsters.

Since we are talking about software startups here and making it possible to start easy and quick, it might be better to save money by doing it on your own (just take a ride in the morning to trouble the officers there everyother day, until they get fed up and get your work done). By this time, you can also prototype the product/service you are developing. Sometime(3-4yrs) back I did find a guy who advertised on paper that he would do it for 3k(around $75). I don't remember the company type though.

And he also did mention that a lot of it would actually go to officers under the table to speed up the process(=normal time) or else it would be dragged a lot. I heard it's called "paper weight" in India. If it's somewhere around 3k/$75 to get it done by a pro at this stuff, it's way cheap and time saving than doing it yourself.

P.S: I also did have this idea of incorporating a dummy corp in Delaware(US) or Nevada. Thought that would work out cheaper.

<comment><USER4> well he paid a little bit on higher side. its normally less than 10k (i paid round 8k). Let me know in case you need contact who can do in India area.

in case you want a simple partnership then it can be done for 1k-2k but it has full liability

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I don't know much about this area, what's notable about this?

<comment><USER6> This explains the stupid bureaucracy in India. Doing a startup walking to the illiterate/barbarian government office is such a pain in the ass in India. To do complete all the formulates might take at least a month if you are foreigner then its endless.

<comment><USER7> Hah, well if that's illiterate/barbarian then I'm mightily impressed by the 'barbarians'. Digital signatures, web based corporate registration. A lot of 'civilized' countries could take an example or two from that.

A month is absolutely nothing.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> How does this procedure compare to similar procedures in other parts of the world? Better? Worse?

<comment><USER9> About the same to The Netherlands.

We just visited the Chamber of Commerce to start a partnership. The person taking our registration just asked us a bunch of questions. (Names, SSN, address, etc., limitations to executive powers of the directors, name of the company, type of work done by the company, etc.) We showed him our passport, we paid about 100 euros and we were outside in an hour.

Bonus was that our Chamber of Commerce was conducting an experiment with the tax service where registering at the CoC would also give our data to the tax service. We got our tax number and papers by mail, instead of having to visit the tax service and filling out forms etc. there.

<comment><USER10> Do you have any idea what are the conditions for foreign students (non-EU) to start a company in the Netherlands? I'm very much interested in launching my own startup here but everybody I ask gives me a conflicting answer.

<comment><USER9> Hmmm... Not really. I suppose your permit for staying here("verblijfsvergunning") should allow you to work. Maybe they have a different category for starting companies.

If you want to know for sure, you should contact the Chamber of Commerce: <http://kvk.nl/> That's where you should register your company, so they probably know this (or know who can tell you).

<comment><USER10> Thanks for the tip! I'll contact them.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Well it is cheaper than Denmark. If you want the company to assume liability they have to have at least 160000kr - which is something like $32000. Not all of it has to be in cash, but there has to be enough to pay taxes of any income including the initial founds.

Now if you are prepared to assume the liability yourself it gets a lot cheaper, but at that point why start a company.

<comment> bjelkeman-again If it is anything like in Sweden, you start a company even with the full liability (sole trader/enskild firma) because it has tax advantages. It then cost about USD 145 and was dead simple.

<comment><USER11> Sure tax gets much simpler that way, but given that I can start a company in the UK for a pound, it feels foolish to do it in Denmark (could also be that I love London more than Denmark).</comment></comment></comment>


UK gov may block Twitter/Facebook to prevent riots - <AUTHOR> http://www.metro.co.uk/tech/872080-uk-riots-david-cameron-hints-at-social-media-shut-down

<comment><USER2> Please don't use the Metro as a source of news. For reference, it is a free paper available around the UK rail network that consists largely of news deemed not worthy of being put into a tabloid with the odd major story spun into nonsense.

Even then, what he said clearly hints at stopping the users using it to organise crime from having access rather than blocking it in general, so the title is somewhat inflammatory.

</comment><comment><USER3> For any non-Londoners, the metro is a rag.

I hate Cameron and would love a new thing to rant about him on, but there isn't one in this story. His quote specifically said _"people ... when we know they are plotting violence"_.

If somebody is plotting violence and their twitter/facebook gets suspended, I'm fine with that. But no, The Metro had to lead off with _"whether it would apply only to individuals or could see networks shut down entirely"_.

Terrible, terrible journalism - but you get what you pay for from free newspapers.

</comment><comment><USER4> For those who don't like Metro, the Guardian has the same quote from Cameron: "We are working with the Police, the intelligence services and industry to look at whether it would be right to stop people communicating via these websites and services when we know they are plotting violence, disorder and criminality,

[http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2011/aug/11/uk-riots- day-f...](http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2011/aug/11/uk-riots-day-five- aftermath-live)

<comment><USER3> See my comment - it's not that the quote is wrong, it's that they have misinterpreted it to make it a more interesting story.

He's talking about shutting out individuals who are planning crimes - I have no problem if he arrests those individuals, but I also wouldn't want to see an article quoting him saying "peeople planning violence, etc etc will go to prison" followed by a statement that it is unsure whether he means just those people, or the entire country is going to prison.

<comment><USER5> "He's talking about shutting out individuals who are planning crimes - I have no problem if he arrests those individuals,..."

Really? So if I were in London and joked about rioting, or "setting stuff on fire", in a private communication with my friends, it would be OK to arrest me even though I haven't done anything?

Wow.

<comment><USER3> Well sure you can take it to one extreme and say "I could get arrested for making a joke", but I could take it to the other extreme and say "we can never prevent terror attacks because they can't be arrested until after the attack".

I'm not a lawyer or a policeman, I've no idea exactly how it works, but I know I would rather murders are prevented than just punished after, and I would rather people planning on setting fire to London are prevented rather than just punished after.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> People are rightly questioning the reliability of this newspaper, however the same statment & quotes are on the official website for the British Prime Minsiter ( [http://www.number10.gov.uk/news/pm-statement-on-disorder- in-...](http://www.number10.gov.uk/news/pm-statement-on-disorder-in-england/) )

 _Mr Speaker, everyone watching these horrific actions will be stuck by how they were organised via social media._

 _Free flow of information can be used for good. But it can also be used for ill._

 _And when people are using social media for violence we need to stop them._

 _So we are working with the Police, the intelligence services and industry to look at whether it would be right to stop people communicating via these websites and services when we know they are plotting violence, disorder and criminality._

</comment><comment><USER7> Twitter kept me safe. I cancelled my plans and stayed at home, thus avoiding getting caught up in the riot.

Whatever is done, the positive effects of social networking must not be undermined.

</comment><comment><USER8> This story is the first related item...

[http://www.metro.co.uk/news/871800-twitter-users-rally-to- jo...](http://www.metro.co.uk/news/871800-twitter-users-rally-to-join- coordinated-london-riot-clean-up)

</comment><comment><USER9> Good luck with that. Did riots occur before Twitter/Facebook existed? No? Well, then, carry on.</comment>


Ask HN: How to get into a good university - <AUTHOR>

I'm a 16 year old international student. Early admission happens at November. My goal is to get admitted at one of the top CS universities; MIT, Stanford, Harvard, and the likes.
I've won my continent's space settlement design competition. I'm a winner of Google Code-In. I've freelanced as a designer and developer and have worked for over a year with a known technology blog among other clients. I head my school's computer club.
My current plan is to get good a good score in the standardized tests, then start developing apps and webapps and hope that they get popular.
Will letters of recommendation from people like my old boss, or important figures from NASA/Google help? What else can I do to strengthen my application?
- A confused kid <comment><USER2> Hi,

It's good that you're starting to think about your applications early. Applying to college is a lot of work and one way you can help yourself is by starting early. Do not procrastinate on this. Starting early, gives you more time to prepare and ensure that you have the strongest possible application.

In my experience, Top schools look at your application holistically as a package so there isn't just a single particular thing that will guarantee admission. For example, it is possible to for a candidate with perfect SATs to fail to get into Harvard. That's not to say SATs/test scores are not important - a high SAT score does, all things being equal, improve you chances. But rather, it is to show you that it alone is not sufficient.

So how do you get in ? You make sure each aspect of your application is as strong as possible. This includes things like your SATs test scores, letters of recommendation, application essay and the like. For SATs, one way to get high scores is to just take many practice exams. This is hard work (the exam is 3hrs+) but most of the question there follow a certain style and after doing it a few times you will naturally get good at answering those questions.

On recommendation letters, my suggestion is to get letters from people who know you really well and can speak candidly and accurately on your current intellect as well as your potential for college-studies. The contents of the letter matter much more than who writes it. For example, you say you lead your high school computer club. I'd imagine that you have had a lot of interactions with the computer instructors at your school in that capacity and so he/she is really familiar with you and your skills at an intimate level. Such a recommender is more likely to write a strong letter since they've seen and know your work first hand.

One strategy that may help you determine if a recommender is a good fit is to ask them: Can you write me a _strong_ recommendation letter ? Most would be up front if that's not the case and politely decline if they cannot write you such a letter. So if you can get _strong_ recommendation letter from someone at Google/NASA, go for it. Otherwise, I'd get one from people who know you well.

The other part of this is your application essay. Do spend time crafting that. Unlike most of the pieces of the application, this is one part where you have total control and you should use this to your advantage. Most top schools give you freedom as to what you can write about, so put some real thought as to what you'd like to focus on. Suggested topics to touch on include, why are you passionate about CS and how did that happen. It's a good idea to have a close- friend or instructor to review your essay. It helps to get a second pair of eyes give you feedback. Make sure though that your voice and personality still shines through in your essay after incorporating any feedback and making adjustments.

I hope some of this is helpful.

Good luck!</comment>


Ask HN: Are there any new languages designed specifically for webassembly - <AUTHOR> It seems like webassembly in the browser is different enough of an architecture and use case that it makes sense that people would be designing languages designed from the bottom up to be compiled to it, but I can't seem to find any. <comment><USER2> Have you seen AssemblyScript, Poetry, Walt, and Speedy:

[https://github.com/AssemblyScript/assemblyscript](https://github.com/AssemblyScript/assemblyscript)

[https://github.com/FantasyInternet/poetry](https://github.com/FantasyInternet/poetry)

[https://github.com/ballercat/walt](https://github.com/ballercat/walt)

[https://github.com/MichaReiser/speedy.js](https://github.com/MichaReiser/speedy.js)

Unlike Rust, which has excellent support for wasm output but wasn't created with wasm in mind, the above languages appear to have been created specifically with wasm as the native compile target.

Also, there's an excellent curated list of languages that compile to wasm:

[https://github.com/appcypher/awesome-wasm- langs](https://github.com/appcypher/awesome-wasm-langs)

</comment><comment><USER3> The language isn't specifically built for web assembly but the framework is. But it allows the writing C# a traditionally server side language to run in the browser.

[https://devblogs.microsoft.com/aspnet/blazor-now-in- official...](https://devblogs.microsoft.com/aspnet/blazor-now-in-official- preview/)

</comment><comment><USER4> [https://github.com/lys-lang/lys](https://github.com/lys-lang/lys)</comment>