Schoolchildren ordered indoors as air pollution cloaks Shanghai - <AUTHOR> http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/dec/06/schoolchildren-air-pollution-shanghai-eastern-china <comment><USER3> I wonder how this compares to the worst smogs experienced in London and elsewhere before the West got its act together with regard to particulate pollution. Apparently the Great Smog of 1952 _killed_ on the order of 10000 people in just a few days. I'm not sure many young people nowadays realize how horrible the situation was just half a century ago.

[1] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Smog_of_1952](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Smog_of_1952)

<comment><USER4> It really irks me whenever there's a talk about nuclear energy. Nuclear power may have its own set of challenges, but coming from the baseline of _coal_ it's hard to do worse.

<comment><USER5> As far as I know, no coal plants have ever resulted in a Chernobyl-scale effect.

<comment><USER6> Chernobyl is estimated to have a combined death toll of somewhat less than a thousand people over their lifetimes.

Coal power plants kill ten times as many people every year when functioning as designed.

<comment><USER7> I think that even coal mining kills thousands of people every year. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining_accident](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining_accident)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I grew up in Hong Kong. It didn't have the cleanest air in the world but I lived in relative good health. After I left for university I heard things were getting worse and worse although I remained sceptical.

When I returned for work, the air was nowhere near as bad as it is on the mainland now but I simply couldn't survive it. Every day my lungs constricted within minutes (I have asthma.) I realised I could never return to live in my home city as I had intended to.

I was not angered by the existence of the pollution. Things change and China grows on the mainland. What I was angered by was the fact that after the handover, the government was so cowed by their new CCP masters that they wouldn't even tell the truth about the air pollution. You will never hear an HK official admit that the pollution comes from China, yet every single adult citizen who grew up in the city remembers what life was like 15-20 years ago.

China ostensibly has anti-pollution laws. The CCP's colossal corruption keeps them from ever being enforced and entire cities, my hometown amongst them, are now literally poisonous to live in.

<comment><USER9> Was it possible for you to breathe the air in the surrounding areas? (Lantau, Macau, etc)

<comment><USER8> Last time I was back in April of this year, Lantau was a little better but realistically still not good enough to consider living there, much less bringing up kids. I ended up feeling out of breath crossing the road.

I haven't been back to Macau since I was a kid though, so it looks very different now (Thanks to Mr Ho.)

My grandfather grew up in HK too. He passed away last summer, struck down by a rather horrible respiratory based cancer. However, I'm wary of too much confirmation bias in attributing that to the pollution too. It'll be interesting to see what the respiratory disease numbers are like in the coming decades.

<comment><USER9> Thanks for the info. My condolences for your home land and family.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> For historical reference, here are some breathtaking photos of mid-century Pittsburgh:

[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2155742/Hell-lid- tak...](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2155742/Hell-lid-taken-The- pictures-bygone-Pittsburgh-residents-choking-clouds-smog.html)

I wonder if anyone can cite a source for one of the claims made in the article:

 _" Also lots of people thought that high smoke output was a sign of high productivity and that coal smoke was good for the lungs and helped crops grow."_

<comment><USER11> If you've lived near farms, pulp-n-paper mills or fish processing plants, you will often be told that the stink is the smell of money and you should stop complaining. I expect it was something similar.

<comment><USER12> As I would tell my father as we passed a pig farm, "yeah, but it's not the smell of _my_ money."

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I've seen sci-fi depictions of over-industrialized mega-city scapes, but I never thought I'd actually get to see a picture of one. To call that surreal is an understatement.

<comment><USER14> I guess we didn't have to wait until November 2019.

But at least we have "cheap" consumer goods!

<comment><USER15> And Chinese workers have stuff like food.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China#Poverty_reduct...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China#Poverty_reduction)

<comment><USER16> We could just give people food without having to make stuff for us in return. The world does not have a food shortage.

<comment><USER17> That fosters dependence issues.

<comment><USER5> What does that even mean? Who is dependent on what in that scenario?

<comment><USER17> The people receiving food stop working to secure food on their own. They grow entitled, and _expect_ food aid.

It's an observed phenomenon in Africa.

<comment><USER5> Wasn't that the whole idea - for them to stop producing and polluting the planet? That giving them food would be cheaper. Of course it would threaten our dependence on cheap clothes and expensive gadgets.

<comment><USER17> It's not a socially stable option. Not because we want cheap gadgets, but because of the social imbalance.

Also from an ethical point of view, it's not very fair to deny them the chance to become a developed nation.

<comment><USER5> People don't sit around on their bums for too long - it's just not in our nature. If they weren't slaving away in factories they might end up as a society that primarily produces cultural capital (huge social stability there) or they might develop a service-based economy. In the wider scheme, Chinese manufacturing is probably more important to the west than China.

<comment><USER17> How important Chinese manufacturing is to China has little to do with the ramifications of perennially feeding a country for nothing.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Is there a level of public outcry regarding the pollution?

I realize that criticism may be somewhat muted given the nature of the PRC government, but I can't imagine a city as large and cosmopolitan as Shanghai merely accepting this level of environmental mismanagement. Unfortunately, articles regarding Beijing/Shanghai pollution usually fail to mention public sentiment above the level of brief individual anecdote ("It's hard to breath on the way to the office" \- Chinese citizen, etc.).

Perhaps someone local could provide some insight?

<comment><USER19> I mean, the problem is that there's a bit of a cultural difference between Americans circa-Industrial Revolution, and the Chinese now. So saying that the Chinese will stand up and protest isn't necessarily true. I don't want to speak for all Chinese, but from what I've read -- please correct me if I'm wrong -- is that there is more of a culture of deference to authority in China. Compare this to Americans, who have a history and pride in rebelling against authority. Now, you might point to China's communist revolution, but realize that with this government came the need for them to propagandize and popularize a love and respect for the government in control, much more so than in the U.S. So back to my original point, protest culture isn't as much of a thing there as it is here, because there's more of a sense of working for the collective good (economic growth of China).

So I'm hoping that there will by outcry, but I think it is unfortunately less likely than it would be in the U.S. due to Chinese culture. I'd also like to here some local insight as well, and I hope I'm proved wrong because it would be awesome if there was a public outcry.

<comment><USER20> There are astonishing numbers of protests in China every year.[1][2] I also think the culture for factory workers during the industrial revolution was one of deference to authority, and that it took extreme conditions to spur them to protest their conditions.

[1] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protest_and_dissent_in_the_Peop...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protest_and_dissent_in_the_People's_Republic_of_China)

[2] [http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2012/02/rising- protests-i...](http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2012/02/rising-protests-in- china/100247/)

<comment><USER19> That's good to hear. My only point about protesting in America was that it's very ingrained in our culture to protest, even for small issues. I didn't really know much about Chinese protesting culture, but it's good to hear they do it in large numbers.

<comment><USER5> As far as I understand, public unrest is one of the greatest fears of Chinese leadership, hence tight control and censorship. That may speak volumes about the willingness of their public to take control along with protesting (as opposed to the West where protest is seen as a safety valve and therefore encouraged in proscribed forms).

<comment><USER19> Well, I hope that's true, but I don't know if I necessarily agree with the idea "they have an oppressive government thus they must be able to take control with protesting". It could be that the government feels the need to be this way because they know just how screwed up everything (pollution, persecution, etc.) is, and are oppressive as a safety measure.

<comment><USER5> ...think that's what I said - the oppression is a response to perception of a greater evil of instability. Scratch any country's leadership and you'll get the same kind of result. The question is whether that is justified, and historically seems to be more usually a case of paranoia, micro-management, and control freakery.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> I see this as a difficult to fake signal that China's economic growth is more real than some folks in the West would like to believe. It is similar to the challenges faced by industrial cities in the West as they exploited the massive production capacities created during WW II. Generally the reasoning goes, high pollution from lots of power plants / factories is a function of production of those power plants / factories.

You can fake GDP numbers but its not as straight forward to fake this sort of environment.

That said, it would be unfortunate if China doesn't get their act in gear soon and start putting scrubbers on plants and cleaning up their act here.

<comment><USER22> > China's economic growth is more real than some folks in the West would like > to believe

i know that people in general are racist against the chinese for all sorts of reasons, but this is the first time i've heard this one.

does anyone actually doubt china's economic growth? i mean all you have to do is go there and see it. (granted, very, very few 'experts' on china have ever actually been there)

<comment><USER21> It isn't racism. This link provides a useful summary of the question : [http://ineteconomics.org/china-economics-seminar-0/short- his...](http://ineteconomics.org/china-economics-seminar-0/short-history- china-s-doubtful-gdp)

The global interest in China's _actual_ GDP on a comparative scale is to help estimate things like their future consumption of natural resources, their threat to global stability, and to evaluate global recessions/growth more accurately.

The problem with "seeing it" is differentiating what you are seeing with what is. So for example a city in the US that has a lot of large buildings being built is a clear sign of economic growth because the market dynamics are structured so that people don't build buildings unless they believe they can rent them out profitably, so they 'lead' in the sense there is demand for that space, they go up, it gets rented, and now there are a bunch of new jobs in the city which brings in workers with wages etc etc etc.

But in China there are buildings that were built simply because the government said "Build a building." There are buildings that are totally empty (see this link [http://io9.com/chinas-brand-new-abandoned-cities-could-be- dy...](http://io9.com/chinas-brand-new-abandoned-cities-could-be- dystopian-m-1238731420) which has some fascinating pictures).

So people don't trust the economic statistics the government produces and seek out other ways of either confirming or denying what is said. Energy consumption is one such indicator which, when combined with a technology sophistication index, can provide another data point on China's economic strength.

<comment><USER23> As comments to your first comment have already pointed out, pollution per unit of primary energy produced in power plants can vary wildly among different parts of the world. Yes, we know that China is putting up a lot of buildings. We know that China has huge amounts of air pollution. We don't know if China would be doing either of those things to the same degree if China had a freer market and more effective rule of law. That's why observers like me think that China could still stagnate at its current level of economic development, and lose the growth magic that it (undeniably) has enjoyed during most of our adult lives.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Unbelievable [http://i.imgur.com/lef99jm.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/lef99jm.jpg)

Has to take years off your life to be breathing that.

<comment><USER24> The sky above the port was the color of a TV, switched to a dead channel.

<comment><USER25> There's always Beijing: [http://3.bp.blogspot.com/\--W3r4NvkHFg/UPpFQzRcNWI/AAAAAAAACB...](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/--W3r4NvkHFg/UPpFQzRcNWI/AAAAAAAACBA/WKYACvJJyvM/s1600/tumblr_mgn3ngzM7y1qzprlbo1_1280.png)

<comment><USER26> Looks like a shot from Blade Runner.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> I am Chinese. The whole China are suffer from air pollution, not noly Shanghai.

</comment><comment><USER28> I remember visiting Shanghai about 10 years ago. It was very vibrant and exciting, and there were cranes everywhere. I thought, "This is like being on the ground floor of a great new metropolis. Wouldn't it be awesome to work here?" I'm glad that things didn't work out that way. There are health consequences for such massive pollution.

</comment><comment><USER29> Yeah, today was not a great day to be here. We contemplated not letting our children go outside, but eventually sent them to school.

</comment><comment><USER30> Curious... from a cancer-risk standpoint, this is the equivalent of smoking how many cigarettes that day?

One? Ten? A pack? Two packs? Fifty packs?

Or do we not have enough data to even guess?

</comment><comment><USER31> Sad. I love -- _love_ -- that city, but I could never live there again, not breathing that.

<comment><USER32> and the price of international schools for your kids, right?

<comment><USER33> If cost is a primary concern, the kids can go to local school (just like Chinese kids who come to the US). The expat continuum goes from 'bubble' to 'going native'. Bubble is most expensive. Might as well stay home, no?

<comment><USER34> They can? Even local chinese kids without 户口 can't go to local schools, to hear them tell it. That was one of the primary reasons students came to the school where I worked in 2010-11.

<comment><USER33> No first hand experience, but from what I can tell, children of legitimate Z visa holders can send their kids to local schools for a reasonable fee. See shanghaiexpat.

It is also legal for expats to home school their kids (not legal for the locals).

There is a strong sense of entitlement present in American culture which leads to unrealistic expectations when living abroad. This manifests as the so- called 'ugly American'. China is a place where 'zero-tolerance' is literally a foreign concept, and anything is possible with persistence (and good connections). Which also implies the downside -- nothing is permanent or guaranteed, either.

<comment><USER35> Depends on the city. Shanghai is much more reasonable than say Beijing; each city in the country has its own often conflicting rules.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> I love China but pollution, the great firewall, and visa complications make it less attractive as somewhere to live.

<comment><USER34> Speaking as someone who lives in China...

The firewall won't bother you (assuming you wish to get around it); it's there for the masses.

Any idiot with a US citizenship can get a tourist visa, lasting a year and having only the requirement "visit Hong Kong (or any other non-China location) every three months" (I was unambitious, and got a two-month one). Someone of my acquaintance says he paid a visa-help company $1000 and got a business visa, good for a year and imposing no requirements.

I have, in the past, had a working visa; if that's what you want, it's generally done by your employer, not you.

Your "I love China" kind of leads me to believe you'd be familiar with this already... what kind of complications have you experienced?

<comment><USER33> $1000! Crazy laowai. As a data point, my current F visa is 2 years, multi- entry, 90 days and cost the nominal fee plus about $100 for the visa company to drop it off at the consulate. Apparently, the F visa has been re-purposed and there is a new M business visa. Any practical experience with that?

[of course, China habitually hassles journalists (Bloomberg) over visas]

<comment><USER9> What's the name (or link) of the visa company?

<comment><USER33> Business visa Requirements: 1\. One completely filled out "Visa Application Form, which you can down load from my attached PDF file. It needs to type with computer then print out. Don't leave any blank, write "N/A" in any item which not suit for you. 2\. One recently taken 2X2 in. photo showing entire face and without a hat on. Please affix the photo to the application form. Photo should be light background, and taken within 6 months. 3\. Original passport with at least 2 blank visa pages and valid for at least 6 months beyond the date of application. 4\. Invitation letter from the company or university in China 5\. Your company or college in US's letter for proof. 6\. Fee: Embassy: $140/per person for single, double & multiple entry in one year Service fee: $35.00 Postage: $22.00 for local people pick up by themselves, +$7.40 for others Total: $197.00 for local/ $204.40 for others.

Make your check paid to: Chinese Service Center .

Lucy Chinese Service Center of Greater Albany, LLC. 2394 Parkville Place Schenectady, NY 12309 Tel:(518)346-0555 Email:email@example.com

EDIT: formatting

<comment><USER9> Thank you very much for taking the time to provide these details and tips.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> I know someone over in China at the moment and they said that the pollution was so bad this morning that looking out of a window you couldn't see the building next it. Scary thought of how much damage that'd do to your lungs.

<comment><USER37> The air pollution levels are similar to living an airport smoking lounge.

[http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-01-30/beijing-air-akin- to...](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-01-30/beijing-air-akin-to-living-in- smoking-lounge-chart-of-the-day.html)

<comment><USER38> EDIT: apparently my post below was predicated on a false assumption, please disregard.

That's Beijing, not Shanghai, and I think we can assume that Beijing is at least slightly cleaner than Shanghai, if not by much.

According this article[0], Shanghai's level reached 602.5, which, when compared to the data on the graph you linked, is about 75 points _higher_ than Beijing.

[0]: [http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/smog- extremely...](http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/smog-extremely- hazardous-levels-shanghai-21120221)

<comment><USER39> Beijing is generally worse more often, partly because they get hit by dust carried from the increasingly large Gobi Desert in addition to all the man- made pollution.

<comment><USER35> Not really. Beijing definitely get dust, but the real problem is that Beijing is trapped in a bowl and gets some wicked inversions. And to think I could see the summer palace from my office just yesterday.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> For the engineers this is an interesting read: [http://cornerstonemag.net/pollution-control-of-coal-fired- po...](http://cornerstonemag.net/pollution-control-of-coal-fired-power- generation-in-china-an-interview-with-wang-zhixuan/)

According to this article, coal fired stations are no longer the primary source of PM2.5. Road vehicles emit an order of magnitude more particulate matter.

I recall about 20 years ago, Santiago had to implement a system where odd- numbered vehicles were allowed to drive on one day, and even-numbered the next, to cut down on the haze problem.

Perhaps electric vehicles are the way to go.

</comment><comment><USER41> What? But China ratified the Kyoto protocol and pledged to reduce their pollution. This can't be true! It's almost as if the country completely disregarded the treaty to grow their economy at any expense.

<comment><USER42> The Kyoto protocol has to do with CO2 emissions, which are very different from the sort of particulate and sulfur pollution described in the article. Also, I have no idea whether China is actually following that treaty, but the reason the US didn't sign was that it did actually allow China to drastically increase the amount of fossil fuels it burns.

<comment><USER43> Yes, China and India are considered "developing" countries by Kyoto and can produce all the CO2 they want under the treaty, so of course they signed it.

 _EDIT_ : and, of course, it was about CO2, not particulates. A country can make certain trade-offs about different types of pollution (particulates v. CO2 v. NOX).

<comment><USER44> That part doesn't seem too unfair to me, considering that China and India's per-capita emissions are still vastly below U.S. levels. It'd be one thing if they were being allowed higher-than-US-level emissions due to being classified as "developing" countries, but they aren't producing anywhere near that.

<comment><USER45> It's the total emissions that matter, not per capita, and China leads the world.

<comment><USER44> That's a silly metric, though, because it just depends on where you divide things up politically. If China split into two independent countries, suddenly it wouldn't lead the world anymore, but the environment would not be any better off. Similarly, if Europe merged into a United States of Europe, its emissions would be much higher-ranked (maybe the largest), but it would not actually emit more than currently. The environment does not care at what scale you draw your political borders.

Per-capita emissions are one way of accounting for the obvious fact that if Denmark (a nation of 5 million people) generated as much CO2 per year as Germany does (a nation of 80 million people), Denmark would in this hypothetical be more blameworthy, and it would be fair to ask Denmark to reduce its emissions more than Germany, as it would already be emitting far out of proportion to its size. Put differently, if every country reduced their per-capita emissions to China's level, we'd actually be in great shape. That suggests that China is not the main problem.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> I feel thankful to be in Beijing. The AQI (air quality index) is only 202 (very unhealthy) here right now.

</comment><comment><USER47> I lived in Utah which can get very smoggy due to winter inversions. PM2.5 levels sometimes hit 80 mcg in the winter, often the highest in the country and utterly depressing to live in.

<comment><USER35> Its a scandal when SLC hits 70 2.5PM, its just a bad day when Beijing hits 700 2.5PM. There is just no comparison.

</comment></comment><comment><USER48> Such a shame; an amazing city with wonderful prospects, becoming almost entirely uninhabitable.

</comment><comment><USER23> This could amuse me, but it saddens me, of course. The reason this could almost amuse me is that I remember a conversation in 1982 in Taipei, soon after my first visit to China, with a student from France. He too had just been to China, and he thought China was a wonderful place, "Because it has no air pollution." (Compared to 1982 Taiwan, yeah, the P.R.C. had very little pollution because it had very little industrial production. I have never been to France, so I don't know if he was also making a comparison to 1982 France by that comment.) I wish that China (and, for that matter, India) had made it a national development goal to grow in an environmentally friendly way. Once, we didn't know technologies for producing industrial output and raising prosperity without producing quite a bit of pollution along the way, but China (and, again, India) could have learned from the mistakes of other countries and the new technologies they developed to build up output without adding so much to pollution.

Today, Taipei is remarkably clean. I was stunned in 2001, when I last lived there as a permanent resident, by a visitor from Ukraine who arrived in Taiwan after visiting Hong Kong. He commented that he liked Taiwan better than Hong Kong because it was cleaner. I was stunned by that comment because the last time I visited Hong Kong (before retrocession to China), no one would have said so. Hong Kong is downwind of China, and maybe is not as cleaned up anymore now that it is under Chinese rule. Taiwan under democratization has become very clean indeed (although it too is downwind of China). Politicial pluralization through a free press and free elections (an advantage India already has) and effective rule by law (an advantage India is developing) seem all over the world to help countries prosper in a more environmentally sustainable manner. I wish China well in developing democracy and rule by law, and in any event to enjoy clean air sooner rather than later.

<comment><USER49> India's cities are better -- but not that much better. In January 2013, Beijing made headlines for a record-high PM2.5 of 755 mg/m^3. Nobody paid any attention to New Delhi, whose PM2.5 topped out at 565 mg/m^3 the next day.

India's GDP is currently 1/4 that of China. Imagine how bad things will get in another 10 years, when India's GDP reaches China's current GDP.

Source: [http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2013-01-15/pollu...](http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2013-01-15/pollution/36352070_1_air- pollution-cu-pollution-levels)

</comment></comment><comment><USER50> Pollution is now the No.1 reason rich people migrate out of China, second to Education of their kids. I claim this from experience.

<comment><USER19> Kind of unfortunate too -- move away, and leave the problem behind. Of course there's no problem with getting out of the polluted area, but there's a problem with just giving up and moving elsewhere, forgetting the pollution exists and not trying to solve it from abroad.

</comment></comment><comment><USER51> Having just come back, this week, from a three weeklong trip visiting a large portion of the country (Beijing, Xi'an, Chengdu, Guilin, Shanghai, Nanjing and Shijiazjuang [along with a number of minor cities]) the pollution was by far the worse in Shijiazjuang, though not on the level seen in Shanghai this week. Shanghai was polluted, but the wind was generally blowing most of the pollution away from the city.

My impression was that most people have a rather nonchalant attitude towards the pollution. They know it is bad, but don't really know what to do about it. This includes my American brother who has been living in Shijiazjuang for the last year. Whenever the topic of pollution came up, he didn't really seem to have any strong feelings about the pollution, either way and explained that seems to be most people's attitude too.

</comment><comment><USER52> It's amazing how much of this is getting to the West Coast of the US.

By one measure 29% of SF's air pollution originates in Asia.

[http://pubs.acs.org/cen/news/88/i46/8846news3.html?T+Online+...](http://pubs.acs.org/cen/news/88/i46/8846news3.html?T+Online+News)

</comment><comment><USER53> So why do people use those flimsy face masks instead of proper gas masks / carbon filters?

<comment><USER54> Cost is a likely factor.

</comment></comment><comment><USER55> There's also a lack of understanding on the effects of this pollution, especially as it becomes more regular. I worked and lived in China for 7 years and just getting parents to close the windows of an obstetric hospital with newborns was difficult enough. There is a belief that "fresh air" is always better than what is in the room. When I asked nurses about the public health impact of this pollution on children, they often stared blankly back.

<comment><USER56> Had the exact same problem with my parents in New Delhi. Father was suffering from lung disease. Wanted to sit outside on the balcony - fresh air, apparently. I tried to explain to him that the air is laden with dangerous levels of particulate pollutants. He didn't care. He died earlier this year.

PM10/2.5 levels continue to be disastrous (1900+/700+ on some days especially around Diwali). Mother still likes to open balcony doors and room windows to let 'fresh air' flow through the house.

Neither are/were uneducated. Post grads in SCIENCE FFS!

Cannot. Explain. It.

<comment><USER57> But does closing windows really help? I mean sure, short term it slows down the exchange of air between the inside and outside, so it'll be helpful if there's a sudden spike that _goes away_. But if the pollution is a chronic problem, and it certainly is in Shanghai and New Delhi, then eventually the equilibrium will equalize and the air inside will be just as bad.

<comment><USER58> It would help if your air conditioning/HVAC system is also doing air filtration (as they do in the US, not familiar with Shanghai/New Dehli).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER59> What did the cities look like in the US and Europe during parts of the Industrial Revolution?

I cant imagine it was as persistent and thick as some parts of China.

<comment><USER60> As already mentioned in the thread the London "pea soupers" were as bad, or worse, than the pictures we see here.

Google image search for ["pea souper"] for images from 1950s London.

<comment><USER59> Here is a good link in case anyone is interested.

[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2243732/Pea- souper-k...](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2243732/Pea-souper- killed-12-000-So-black-screen-cinemas-So-suffocatingly-lethal-ran-coffins-How- Great-Smog-choked-London-60-years-ago-week.html)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER61> Air pollution is one thing the leadership suffers as well. Everyone has to breathe. If the people are poor or suffering in some other way but the leadership is living large then they can ignore the issues. But everyone needs air. At some point they have to deal with it.

<comment><USER62> +1. Also applies to western countries riding their moral highhorse - <USER2> knows no borders. 1/3rd of pollution in LA comes from China.

</comment></comment><comment><USER63> And yet your President is still prioritizing coal over Canadian oilsands....

</comment><comment><USER64> I appreciate how this is currently sharing the frontpage with [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6860839](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6860839)

</comment><comment><USER65> Do you guys think this will spur china to jump ahead in greening/pollution reduction? It would be incredibly costly to do so ($$$), but incredibly costly not to (people).

</comment><comment><USER35> 344 2.5 AQI right now in Beijing. I just bought a $1k air purifier to cope last week to cope with what is going to be a very bad winter.

<comment><USER66> What model?

<comment><USER35> Blue air. Second largest one.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER67> Damn these Chinese! Can't they cheaply produce our goods with slave labor without polluting our precious planet?

</comment><comment><USER68> I'd engage in some schadenfreude, but a good bit of that stuff will be lurking over LA none too soon.

</comment><comment><USER69> Investment idea: Companies that manufacture sulfur dioxide scrubbers for coal plants.

</comment><comment><USER70> this looks like a good sign for the world economy. S&P 2000!</comment>


Show HN: GuruHotel – The Ecommerce Platform for Hotels - <AUTHOR> https://guruhotel.com/ <comment><AUTHOR> Hello Hacker Community!

I hope you and your families are healthy and safe in these hard times.

Today I want you to remember that last time you found an excellent hotel for a fantastic weekend with your family or friends, and you discovered that its website was a nightmare. The booking process, an endless list of steps. The checkout, a bit risky. So you better move to an online travel agency to complete your reservation more safely.

As thousands of independent hotels struggle to survive, titans like Booking.com and Expedia are bleeding out their profits with 20-40% in commissions . To stay alive, hotels have few options. They can offer their rooms on Online Travel Agencies, giving away their independence and losing contact with their customers.

Or they can create their websites and start a painful way, looking for agencies, designers, developers, marketers, and launching their marketing campaigns using Google or Facebook Ads.

We are launching rockets to space thanks to Elon , but we cannot help SMBs compete with ecommerce titans. Is this fair for independent hotels?

We believe it's not. And fortunately, things have changed. Today we launch GuruHotel, the ultimate ecommerce platform for hotels.

[https://guruhotel.com/](https://guruhotel.com/)

We developed a user-based platform that hoteliers can launch in a couple of minutes, following a seamless onboarding process. Once the ecommerce is complete, users can activate their favorite payment methods, connect their real-time inventory, and receive bookings from +130 countries.

With this all-in-one platform, we want to empower independent hotels and increase their direct bookings.

We're so excited about our mission, and we believe you could feel the same and help us reach more independent hotels around the world, spreading the voice about our product.

The next time you book a room, remember that booking directly saves jobs and Mom-and-pop business.

Thank you so much for reading this!</comment>


Ask HN: Best way to have a dynamic database schema? - <AUTHOR>

I've seen a lot of solutions to handling user-created table fields, but have you had any success/tips on which method you used? E.g EAV model, table with a lot of columns, etc? <comment><USER2> Postgresql - fixed schema for the common elements, hstore column for others.</comment>


ISO Rejects NSA Encryption Algorithms - <AUTHOR> https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2017/09/iso_rejects_nsa.html <comment><USER2> Previous HN discussion on the same topic (different source): [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15302662](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15302662)

I felt that tptacek's top comment in that thread was the best synopsis for the whole situation.

<comment><USER3> tptacek's comment lower down is interesting:

> I've already stipulated the politics of the story, which are deeply boring > to me.

I'm not sure it's possible to be bored by "politics"\-- i.e., to be bored by evidence from the Snowden leaks that the NSA is interested in pushing and has pushed kleptographic cryptography to undermine standards-- and be seriously engaged in a technical analysis.

It's like saying you're only interested in the code of the winning entry of the Underhanded C Contest, but not at all interested in the rules of the challenge. If someone's analysis under those circumstances is that the code looks like it does a fine job of completing its task, one should be skeptical.

[1] [http://www.underhanded-c.org/](http://www.underhanded-c.org/)

<comment><USER4> His point is that he wanted to discuss the technical details of the cipher design and not the political background story. He specifically said he agrees that it seems sensible ISO has not adopted this standard in light of NSA's subversive Dual EC DRBG deception, but that it also is very unlikely these ciphers contain or could contain a backdoor.

He's not at all arguing that ISO is in the wrong to decline accepting the algorithms or that the politics don't matter; just that they probably didn't backdoor these 2 particular algorithms. NSA has voided all of their goodwill, no doubt, but that's not what he was addressing.

I imagine the cryptographers working at NSA who are genuinely trying to design secure, non-backdoored algorithms are very unhappy at how badly their organization shot themselves in the foot.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Boy, those Trojans really got us with that last horse, hoowee, but this one looks solid.

</comment><comment><USER6> Good. Best case scenario was still bad: establishing precedent and credence in favor of the NSA.</comment>


52 Places to Go in 2016 - <AUTHOR> http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/01/07/travel/places-to-visit.html <comment><USER2> Very short reviews of the places on the list that I've already seen:

* Brno, Czech Republic - I stayed there just a few days, but even though pretty, the city wasn't very exciting. It's quite cheap and less touristic than Prague, so if you're looking for something less crowded than the capital, it might be a good choice to experience Czech culture

* Barcelona, Spain - one of the most touristic places in Europe, but it totally deserves it. It's not only beautiful and lively, but even if you want to avoid crowded areas, you can book a room a few stations from the center and enjoy the fantastic local culture. I stayed there for a month and as long as you stay away from La Rambla, it's very relaxing place

* Vietnam - I haven't been to Dalat yet, but recently I've visited Ho Chi Minh City and Mui Ne and both are wonderful places. Vietnamese cuisine and coffee, as well as cheerful and very friendly people, make it a perfect place for a low-cost trip.

* Malaga, Spain - way different from Barcelona, with the influence of African culture, it's a good place to spend a few days, but also perfect base for short trips around - from Malaga you can easily get to Gibraltar, Granada, Jerez and Seville

* Phnom Penh, Cambodia - I think that other places in Cambodia like Battambang or Siem Reap are better to visit. Capital of the country is rather crowded and polluted. There's plenty of things to see, however, especially if you know a bit about history of Cambodia, you can constantly feel demons of the past being present in the city.

* Sydney, Australia - I spent 1 week in Melbourne and then 1 week in Sydney, when I was in Australia. I must say I strongly prefer Melbourne as it is more a place to live, while Sydney seems more a business city. Having said that, I highly recommend to visit them both, they're expensive, but wonderful.

<comment><USER3> Somehow strange feeling to see Jerez [1] - my hometown - mentioned here in HN

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerez_de_la_Frontera](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerez_de_la_Frontera)

<comment><USER4> I was indeed going to ask why Jerez? I've been there a few times for the F1 tests and never really saw much more than that but now I feel that I probably missed something.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> 19\. Virunga National Park - Democratic Republic of Congo

The Eastern part of the DRC is still a dangerous place to go with still ongoing guerrilla activity.

"Getting there requires a flight to Kigali, Rwanda, and a three-hour taxi ride."

"While a park spokeswoman said there have been no reports of unfriendly encounters between rebels and tourists, the eastern D.R.C. remains an unpredictable area that calls for sensible precautions."

If you want to see the mountain gorilla, just go to Rwanda. Very safe country, the Switzerland/Singapore of Africa. Or Uganda for even cheaper. I am not saying to only go to safe places, but avoiding active combat zones is easy to do.

Sad to see almost nothing in (non Northern) Africa. Great place to avoid the mobs.

EDIT: a few more points

36 - Tyrol, Austria

The Tyrol extends into Italian as south Tyrol, so if you are touring Italy, visit this region.

45 - Phnom Penh, Cambodia

I found it boring, and so did most visiting non-expats that I met. Most tourists simply visit the Killing Fields and prison, which is not mentioned.

<comment><USER6> Did they really recommend the part of the Congo to which the UK foreign office advises against all travel (i.e. your travel insurance will be invalid)? Wow. The rest of the country is "advise against all but essential travel"

[https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/democratic- republic...](https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/democratic-republic-of- congo)

<comment><USER5> I was surprised to see it on the list, especially when neighboring countries have many of the same touristic aspects. Keep in mind that the Congo and the DRC are two different countries.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> This is a beautiful page, but my god, is it heavy. I'm counting 171 separate requests totaling 31 Mb - excluding the videos. I've not even loaded all videos, and my total is at over 400 Mb now.... Is this acceptable now?

<comment><USER8> I was really blown away by how much care went into making it perfect on mobile view for both orientations. Each photo is positioned differently to ensure best composition.

But it does feel a but clunky and that size is rather shocking.

<comment><USER7> Yeah, they've done an impressive job on mobile as well. The numbers I posted are on a desktop machine. I've checked, and it seems to weigh in at only 1.1 Mb on mobile. Pretty neat.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> It always amuses me that that it's "Turin, Italy" but "Providence, Rhode Island". I guess they assume an American audience but it's still strange that they don't mention the country for places in the US of A.

<comment><USER10> It's also "Kansai, Japan", which is kind of like declaring that "East Coast, USA" is now hip. Kansai, if the name doesn't ring a bell, being the broad region that contains 7 Japanese prefectures (~states), the cities of Osaka, Kyoto and Kobe, and a total of around 22 million people.

<comment><USER9> Yeah I found this odd, too. They did it for a couple of other regions as well (East Bay, German wine region from memory).

<comment><USER11> Mosel (wine) region is absolutely a known thing in Germany, so this one is correct.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> If you go to St. Louis, make sure to visit the City Museum ([http://www.citymuseum.org/](http://www.citymuseum.org/)). It is an incredible, unique playground to explore for children and adults alike. It is hard to explain what it is and explanations don't do it justice. To this day it is our fondest memory from the trip to St. Louis.

<comment><USER13> Bring knee pads!

<comment><USER14> And take off any fancy shoes before going down a slide! (Or even better, don't wear fancy shoes.) My wife's shoes got ruined by friction in the heel area. Still glad we went, it's an awesome place. :)

You can even pair it with a visit to the Strangeloop tech conference ([http://www.thestrangeloop.com](http://www.thestrangeloop.com)).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Having visited a number of cities in the US, I have to say I agree with Washington DC here - I found it to have the most touristy things to do, be a great place for exploring on foot and home to good bars and restaurants. Not a place many people from across the pond have as their first choice (usually NYC, Vegas, San Francisco or LA) but my favourite city of the lot. And seeing all the monuments lit up at night is just amazing.

<comment><USER16> I'm always surprised DC isn't higher on the list for tourists. The museums alone make it worth the trip.

If you're already in NYC, it's a pretty short train ride (by American standards at least) to DC. I think it's about 3 hours by Amtrak, just a bit longer than the Eurostar from London to Paris.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Number 3 on the list is Malta, and I just have to add that one of the best books I have ever read is "The Great Siege: Malta 1565" [1]. It's quite short, but absolutely fascinating. I wrote this in my Amazon review of it:

The story of the siege of Malta in 1565 is absolutely riveting. The Knights of St John, with Grand Master de la Valette, and the Maltese population are attacked and besieged by the numerically superior Turks for the entire summer of 1565. Ernle Bradford does a remarkable job of describing the events in such a way that it almost feels like you are there. Along the way, you also learn a lot about life, war and politics in the 16th century

[1] [http://www.amazon.com/Great-Siege- Malta-1565/dp/1497637864/](http://www.amazon.com/Great-Siege- Malta-1565/dp/1497637864/)

<comment><USER18> There was also the Siege of Malta in WW2:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Malta_%28World_War_II...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Malta_%28World_War_II%29)

Edit: The entire population of Malta was awarded the George Cross (UK highest gallantry award for civilians) for their actions in WWW2:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Award_of_the_George_Cross_to_M...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Award_of_the_George_Cross_to_Malta)

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> "and the transformation of 700,000 square miles of former docklands into more than 5,000 new apartments and public waterside attractions"

700,000 square miles? Of Dockland? In Bordeaux? And each apartment gets 140 square miles of land? :-)

</comment><comment><USER20> By virtue of this kind of exposure those are now all places you should avoid in 2016.

<comment><USER21> Ha that's exactly what I thought. I live in one of those places (#27, Brno) and there are a number of bars listed by name which are already a little tricky to get seated in. Luckily there's still not many tourists, the really good bars are slightly out of the centre and aren't usually listed.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> Having grown up in North Dakota, I am deeply confused why tourists would want to visit any part of it (#5). I'm shocked it shares a list with Barcelona and Carribean islands.

<comment><USER23> Haven't been to North Dakota, but a few years ago I went to Montana (parts look very similar to the picture they included). It was almost by chance I went, didn't really have a hand in planning the trip but-

It was absolutely breath-taking, and I won't forget how it felt to stand in those hilly fields for a long time. Being at the exact same spot as the Battle of Little Big Horn, walking in quiet with no cell phone signal... It was all wonderful.

<comment><USER22> Oh yeah, Montana is absolutely beautiful. When I moved to California for school I drove through and was absolutely amazed. Western ND is like eastern Montana, which is much different than western Montana. Then ND gets incredibly flat like the picture in the article as you go east. Most people from Montana really don't like eastern Montana.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Mexico City as #1? Really? Having been there recently, my main objective was to get the hell out of the teeming city and its pool of horrible smog without being killed by the crazy drivers. The rest of Mexico is quite nice, but stay out of the cities.

<comment><USER25> I had the opposite experience. Such a beautiful city with rich history and culture. Driving was pretty sane. There is indeed air pollution but its been getting lower as the years go along. It is not a perfect city but one of my favorite cities to go visit.

<comment><USER26> I'm surprised by parent and gp. Mexico City is beautiful and interesting and full of things to do, but driving a car there is a nightmare. My first fifteen minutes behind the wheel there changed my view of traffic and laws forever.

I suggest visiting without a car. If you need one to get to places outside the city, rent only when you're leaving and ask for exact advice about the easiest way out of town.

<comment><USER25> If we want to be specific about driving, I would not unless its unavoidable. It never even popped in my mind that the complaint about drivers was in reflection of having driven there. If thats the case, agreed. It is so easy and cheap to take a radio taxi I would never even think of taking a taxi. Plus for $100 you can usually get a private car for the day with a driver.

<comment><USER24> I was there to hike up the nearby volcanos, so taxis weren't practical. I gather there are some amazing museums and churches, but the city's main outdoor features seemed to be smog, litter, and protruding rebar.

<comment><USER26> Mexico is a great outdoor city. The parks and bike routes are great and abundant and mountains surround the city. Weather is good year-round. Lots of day hikes around the city are easy to get to without a car. Popo or Izta or La Malinche or Nevado de Toluca might require a car ride but you can climb Cerro de San Miguel (14000') or El Águila (14000') from a bus stop. (Popo (18000') is closed anyway because it's an active smoking volcano and Izta (17000') requires a carload of mountaineering gear even if you can find a ride.)

<comment><USER24> > Izta (17000') requires a carload of mountaineering gear

Having just hiked it, this is not true during the dry season. You do cross a small glacier, but all you need for that is YakTrax, if anything.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> I'm surprised to see so many places not on the list, and so many places making it that caused me to question the rationale (to the point where I read the follow-up article on how they chose places).

Then I realised as an NY Times piece, this is for Americans. Lots of the places are Anglo-Spanish-friendly (St Helena, really?), mostly within less than insane flight times (explains the lack of New Zealand on the list) and the inevitable references to Kanye and other celebrities (because you know it'd be insulting to suggest that these places actually have things going for themselves without the affirmation of a celebrity).

While I disagree with almost the majority of the choices (choose Melbourne over Sydney any day of the week as a tourist, avoid anything with Democratic Republic of the Congo on it unless you're already familiar with the safety requirements for the region) it's an interesting and thought provoking list, nonetheless.

<comment><USER28> > mostly within less than insane flight times (explains the lack of New > Zealand on the list)

New Zealand isn't that far away. LAX to AKL is about 11 hours travel time. The west coast to many Asian cities is at least 14 hours, if not 20 by the time you add in layovers.

<comment><USER29> > LAX to AKL is about 11 hours travel time.

Plus another 6-7 hours to get to LAX from New York. This _is_ a New York Times article.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> It's great to Grand Rapids, Michigan make this list! I live there and find it to be a nice area. The craft beer really is delicious, and there is plenty of it to go around[1]. It's not too far from a beautiful lakeshore (with exceptional beaches), and is a couple hours drive to Chicago or Detroit.

What I'll be interested to see is what the impact of a major data center will be on tech investment in the area from both the local community and from outside investors[2].

[1] [http://www.experiencegr.com/things-to-do/beer- city/](http://www.experiencegr.com/things-to-do/beer-city/)

[2] [https://www.supernap.com/news/switch-confirms-plans-for- mass...](https://www.supernap.com/news/switch-confirms-plans-for-massive- michigan-data-center.html)

<comment><USER31> I live in Holland, which is 40 minutes from G.R. I second the comments: Grand Rapids is a great city. I recommend visiting in the late Spring or Early Summer: it's heaven.

If you do happen to visit in Winter, and you're near Holland or Grand Haven (also on the lakeshore) you should check out the downtown areas: both have snowmelt systems that keep the downtown area roads and sidewalks dry:

[http://www.downtownholland.com/green/snow- melt/](http://www.downtownholland.com/green/snow-melt/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> It's interesting to see St Helena on the list. I hadn't realised the airport was actually being built, and is scheduled to open later this year.

I used to work with someone from St Helena. She was just 20 years old, and — understandably — didn't see much future for herself on the island. Perhaps the airport will change that, or at least mean she no longer needs to take two weeks holiday to visit her family by ship.

</comment><comment><USER33> A lot of people here are saying "This list seems extremely arbitrary", and I was of that mindset as well until I got five places into the list and found Teddy Roosevelt NP. The national parks of North Dakota are amazing, and it's hard to describe exactly why you should go. I could say "grand views, few people, and towns that make me laugh" but that doesn't summarize it well at all.

Some of these places should be more and less generalized, however. "Skane, Sweden" ought to be changed to "a less populated region of the Norwegian or Swedish coast, somewhere with a historic lighthouse". I've spent some time on the coast of Norway, and I think it's one of the most beautiful places in the world. Additionally, naming "Kansai, Japan" is ridiculous, it encompasses 22 million people and three major cities (Osaka/Kyoto/Kobe); this is especially ridiculous given that there's also a place on the list with a population of 113.

</comment><comment><USER34> I was certain this was gonna be a list of 52 Go resources.

<comment><USER35> Same here, especially with the capitalized "G"

<comment><USER34> Even when I'm reading non-programming related stuff, the capital "G" always gets me.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> As a Toronto resident for over 18 years, I just have to say don't visit Toronto in the dead of winter. It's drab, cold and uninteresting.

There are lots of festivals and things do in the summer, but I can't honestly agree with the #7 spot. Many of the places on the list are more exciting.

Another tip: wherever you go, try to time your trip with a local holiday. This is when most public events will take place and locals will have the day off allowing you to interact with them as opposed to other tourists.

<comment><USER37> Resident thinks their city is less exciting than exotic locale? Well that's unexpected!

Seriously though, I live in a city where locals keep discouraging tourists from coming, and tourists keep talking about how great it is. Part of it is due to how stuff that makes a city fun is different for the two groups, but also because locals don't treat their cities as special. When we travel somewhere, we take advantage of everything, at home we mostly just want to get home.

<comment><USER36> You're right there is an element of that, but I think I'm fairly objective about Toronto because I wasn't born here and I tend to visit a lot of other cities as well.

At the end of the day, you simply can't get around the weather. If you're really in the mood for snow, NYC is definitely more exciting around Christmas- time, and even Ottawa, Montreal or Quebec City have more going on in terms of public events.

Toronto's a wind-tunnel during most of the cold-season and the snow is not the fluffy fun kind, but quickly freezes or turns to dirty slush.

For 6 months of the year Torontonians are just trying to get between their preferred indoor heated spaces as quickly as possible, and public gathering spaces are very limited.

<comment><USER38> Fellow Torontonian here, you sound incredibly boring. Maybe stop and look at how many people are walking around downtown tonight and around City Hall skating and at the Distillery District and going to the clubs and

<comment><USER36> I guess I'd have to disagree. People are typically not "walking around", they are mostly walking from A to B at fast pace. Nathan Philips Square might be an exception due to the skating rink.

Also last few days might be an anomaly due to the unseasonably warm weather, but during a typical winter the scene is quite different.

Again I wasn't totally bashing Toronto, there is some interesting things to do here. Christmas Market used to be nice before the 30 minute lineups started, and during summertime there are definitely a lot of buzzing events or chill places to just hang out. Or maybe I am boring and tend to see the uninteresting side of my city. In this case I might need to make some more cheerful friends like you.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> Was it 3 or 4 places worth visiting in the _entire Southern Hemisphere_?

<comment><USER40> Hey, those airline tickets are expensive.

<comment><USER23> Everything on this list is expensive.

<comment><USER26> #1 Mexico City is cheap.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER41> God @#$& developers redirect to mobile site if you use the shortened share link on a smartphone... and they drop your deep link.

</comment><comment><USER42> But why would golang developers concentrate in such touristy locations ?

<comment><USER43> Thought it was only me who followed the link thinking it was a metaphor.

</comment></comment><comment><USER44> Methodology: whatever we felt like

Things to do in each location: crowdsource to Facebook

<comment><USER45> Methodology: Submarine article for Hilton and other travel organizations.

</comment></comment><comment><USER46> Glad to see my home state Tamil Nadu in the list. India and each state in India is extremely diverse and there is a lot to see and explore. Much of India's rich heritage is unbeknownst to people outside India. What India lacks is excellent marketing and lacks in visitor experience. As in software, the code or a functional product does not guarantee success. It is the entire user experience - usability, help documentation, security coupled with marketing and some luck. India has a great product - novel and differentiated - but, lot of work needs to be done on marketing and visitor experience.

</comment><comment><USER47> I wonder how those specific places (bars, restaurants) got there. I live in one of those place and I didn't know about one half (really expensive restaurants, so my fault I guess) of those and the other half (bars) wasn't particularly special. Not a bad selection.. just very arbitrary.

</comment><comment><USER48> What beautiful presentation. I realise that there is subtle enhancement going on in all of these, if it's not the pleasant animations, it's the saturation, or the slight diffusion giving an impression of dreaminess, to some of the HDR. But it's very easy to browse, you've chosen some truly stunning photos that give the best of each location, and it really gives a sense of wanting to get on a plane. From this jaded, desk-bound coder, you've given me a few minutes of dreamin'. Well done.

</comment><comment><USER49> Grand Rapids, MI? Really? (I lived there for 5 years...not.going.back.) I mean...Meyer Garden is cool and all, but NOTHING compared to Butchart Garden on Vancouver Island.

</comment><comment><USER50> The image for Phnom Penh has some terrible compression artifacts, the other images and videos are beautiful and worth the bandwidth

[http://graphics8.nytimes.com/newsgraphics/2015/11/10/places-...](http://graphics8.nytimes.com/newsgraphics/2015/11/10/places- to-go-2016/assets/images/phnompenh-landscape-1800_x2.jpg)

</comment><comment><USER14> Was shocked to see Bordeaux #2! My wife and I are there right now. It's a beautiful city—probably my favorite in France so far. It's also very walkable and bikeable. Coming from the Silicon Valley (San Mateo area) it's a huge difference in lifestyle, but I love both: SV is more about work and outdoors while Bordeaux is more about fine living.

</comment><comment><USER51> Funny, I'm building an app with my partner that does just this but for weekend trips from the UK.

<comment><USER52> I'd be interested in seeing that when it's ready!

<comment><USER53> In the meantime check out Hitlistapp.com - though I'd like to see brad0's as well!

<comment><USER54> Strange app, claims my UK mobile number is wrong.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER55>
       53. Nepal.

<comment><USER56> Haha, they missed us this year? Nepal seems to have a permanent stranglehold on lists like these. It's not surprising, with the earthquake and the ('not a') blockade, they might have wanted to skip this year.

<comment><USER57> Love Nepal. Running my startup out of Kathmandu....although we face 14 hours of power shortages, a crazy political blockade, shortages in every item imaginable including medicine, silly government taxes and restrictions...the Nepalese people are some of the best I have ever met. To sum up, come and visit, you won't regret it...

<comment><USER58> I also ran a startup in Kathmandu (OLE Nepal). It was super fun, exhilarating, and ultimately not as successful as I hoped. May you have better luck!

Sadly, Nepal has made zero political progress since I arrived there in 2006 :(

<comment><USER56> Great job! I had had the good fortune to talk to Ravi dai (of OLE Nepal) and pick his brains a couple of times. And then we had a few things planned with OLE (and later OLPC) guys, but they sort of petered out. And since then, everyone has been in haste to get out of there, so I don't have many contacts in Nepal anymore. If you know someone still interested in rural-tech stuff, let me know: I know a few people (myself included) willing to put in a little bit of money each as business investments. : )

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER59> Whoa, Coral Bay looks so beautiful. Guadeloupe, too. Wonder what life is like in those places?

</comment><comment><USER60> If there's anyone coming to TN, India - ping me up! I can offer suggestions.

<comment><USER61> Could you please list the suggestions here or PM me? Thanks

</comment></comment><comment><USER62> Why write Viñales, San Sebastián and Île de Ré, but not Skåne, Malmö and Korčula?

Sloppy editing.

<comment><USER63> I've noticed in America its much more common to put accents on Spanish, French, Portuguese, etc. than for anything else. Can't comment on why.

</comment></comment><comment><USER64> St. John is on the list, but I'd recommend Caneel Bay Resort vs. their recc to this audience if you want to unplug while on vacation - no TVs nor phones in the rooms, and it's amazingly tranquil.

</comment><comment><USER65> Why not visit Brazil?

Take a look: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkmPAOwpkL8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkmPAOwpkL8)

</comment><comment><USER66> Feel free to send me an email if you come to Uruguay.

</comment><comment><USER67> Just another millionaire pissing contest. Like college rankings and best cities to live. Makes you anxious if you missed something and changes every year.

</comment><comment><USER68> Really loved how all the info was on a single page and was easily scrollable for a click glance. Pagination can cause such a slow experience. The interspersed moving GIFs were a nice touch as well.

I'll add places I've been to that I haven't seen mentioned:

* Hangzhou, China - I spent about three days hanging around West Lake/Xi Hu ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Lake](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Lake)), a large, BEAUTIFUL lake adjacent to the city. Sprawling mountains in the background, an endless amount of Chinese gardens and beautiful greenery surrounding it. Cheap boat rides that you can drive yourself, and an extreme dearth of Western tourists - even by China standards. Though, I went during the summer and the place was swarming with Chinese tourists. Maybe my favorite meal in China was in a modern restaurant in a random mall there. I'd honestly consider Xi Hu one of the most beautiful places I've been.

* Malmo, Sweden - I didn't go to the countryside like the article recommends though did a day trip to the nearby University town of Lund, which is nice but nothing cooler than most small European cities. The city itself has nothing in particular worth seeing - it's still fairly expensive, though probably cheap by Scandanvian standards. I did stumble upon some good restaurants. I enjoyed Stockholm a lot more, and wouldn't return to Malmo if it weren't for a friend I have there. Gothenburg seems a lot cooler but sadly I never made it out there. Definitely avoid in the late fall / winter due to cold weather.

* Kansai, Japan - I spent a little over a weekin Osaka and various small towns in the area (Nara, Ouji). I got the sense that besides Tokyo and its surrounding area, Kansai contained a good chunk of the interesting tourist things in Japan. Himeji castle is an hour or two bullet train ride away (and many of the towns nearby have similar castles), Mt Fuji is in the area, there are great onsen / hostsprings, Kyoto and the closeby area appears to contain the strongest density of old shrines and temples, and Nara is famous for the thousands of wild deer intermixed with old shrines and temples. Hiroshima is a few hour train ride away and has a lot to see: the A-Bomb museum, memorial, infamous bombed dome remains, and Miyajima - a beautiful island also with wild deer and shrines that I unfortunately missed due to rain. If you have enough time and railpass duration, take a (~3-6 hour) train to Fukouka and then the (~$100/each way) fast ferry to Busan, Korea. I LOVED Busan. Also: be sure to buy the Japan rail pass BEFORE you get to Japan. You can't get it in Japan.

* Malaga, Spain - this one has been mentioned, but I'll add it did seem much more touristy and built up than other parts of Andalusia. The pros of this are there are some nice restaurants and bars and still some good historical stuff - like a nice Moorish fort and Roman ampitheater in the center. I was there in the winter (still ~60 degrees F) but there are beaches. I'd recommend checking out nearby Granada for Alhambra and Sevilla was also cool. Cordoba is overrated and this is coming from a huge history nerd.

* Phnom, Penh - this one was also mentioned. I found this place incredibly depressing. Nearly everywhere you go there are often disfigured or limb-missing locals begging (I am guessing this the aftermath of the Khmer Rouge). They're not actually begging for money, but rather to give you a tuk-tuk ride, which was unusual to begging in other places I've been where people usually just ask for money. It's very dirty - like usually you rent a tuk tuk (think 1970s era chariot - motorcycle with wagon on the back), and I remember getting really dusty just from driving around. The Cambodians are incredibly nice and speak remarkably good English especially compared to the even more heavily tourist-exposed neighboring Thais. You can shoot an AK-47 for $50 at an army range and even a bazooka if you're willing to pay ~$300 (though I found out later in my trip it's a lot cheaper to shoot an AK and Russian weapons in the Baltics - mainly Estonia and Latvia). Angkor Wat in nearby Siem Reap is a MUST see.

</comment><comment><USER69> The most polluting human activity is tourism.

<comment><USER70> False. Sustainable tourism is achievable and can bring good to the places you go.

<comment><USER71> What's the best way to cross the ocean sustainably, as a tourist?

<comment><USER72> on turtleback

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER73> OMG. Turn off the page style if you want to see any of the content. (Not that you would want to see it.)</comment>


There's a Big Problem with Making Vaccines Mandatory - <AUTHOR> https://www.sciencealert.com/as-effective-as-they-might-be-making-vaccines-mandatory-breaks-trust-in-healthcare <comment><USER2> Summary: punitive enforcement measures have a backlash.</comment>


Map of all search engines and who gets data from whom - <AUTHOR> https://www.searchenginemap.com/ <comment><AUTHOR> This also useful [http://l-lists.com/en/lists/e34z3f.html](http://l-lists.com/en/lists/e34z3f.html)</comment>


Congress Doesn't Really Seem to Get Why the US Needs Self-Driving Cars - <AUTHOR> http://gizmodo.com/congress-doesnt-really-seem-to-get-why-the-us-needs-sel-1765257370 <comment><USER2> Except that we really don't need self-driving, remotely controllable, DMCA protected, non-usermodifiable etc etc cars that only drive on what will essentially become parallel railroad tracks defined by beacons.

See "Demolition Man": [http://amzn.to/1PcTxrc](http://amzn.to/1PcTxrc) (non- affiliate link [http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001AIY58O](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001AIY58O) ).</comment>


This Will Make You a More Productive Procrastinator - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/afwp/this-will-make-you-a-more-productive-procrastinator-b29bd9b9c68b <comment><USER2> This does not really work, at least for the pathological procrastinators. I know because I've lived most of my life like that. It made me pretty good at side activities that will do little for my wellbeing or my financial and social success. Using the author's example: if you read a lot but you only get paid to write, sooner or later real life will show you the bill. Yes, all that reading might come useful here or there, but the value/time ratio will be abysmally low - and at the back of your mind, the negative feeling of having wasted time will reinforce a downward spiral of negativity and self-hatred.

I think I turned a corner on this issue recently, but I don't want to preach and everyone is different. I just want to say: if your procrastination is at chronic levels, you have to accept you're powerless, seek professional help, and sincerely commit to the solutions they suggest. It can take very little to fix, but it's often impossible to do if you don't admit to yourself that you've lost control.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yeah, I definitely agree that it's very situational. I guess everything has its exceptions too.

I definitely agree that professional help can well... help. There are some things beyond our control. I used to procrastinate because I have autism, which made me quickly feel overwhelmed about what to do with all that school stuff and such, and therefore leading to procrastination.

So yeah, I got therapy for that and it helps so far.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> The entire article can be summarized as "Do something that you hate slightly less instead."</comment>


Yahoo brings in Google's Marissa Mayer as CEO - <AUTHOR> http://pressroom.yahoo.net/pr/ycorp/236553.aspx

<comment><USER2> Very promising for a turnaround to pull off a coup like this.</comment>


Learning from Touring Bands: Game business model suitable for other businesses too - <AUTHOR> http://lostgarden.com/2005/10/game-business-model-learning-from.html

<comment><USER2> That's a long article. Thanks for the link.

<comment><USER3> There is plenty of interesting advice in lostgarden.com, if making games is your thing.</comment></comment>


IPhone 2.0 Firmware Already Jailbroken - <AUTHOR> http://blog.iphone-dev.org/post/41730121/living-in-sweet-harmony

<comment><USER2> This announcement is not about jailbreaking the new 3G iPhone hardware. A huge attack against the first generation iPhones was discovered in March which completely compromised the secure bootloader and made it possible to install any unsigned firmware image you want.

<http://wikee.iphwn.org/news:pwnage>

All they have probably done here is hacked the 2.0 firmware to include the installer app and then loaded it on first generation hardware with the bootloader vulnerability.

<comment><USER3> Agreed.

But ziPhone on Thursday (maybe it's still Thursday where you are) announced they've jailbroken firmware 2.0. See <http://status.ziphone.org/>

<comment><USER4> except that ziPhone does nasty things like giving every unlocked/jailbroken iphone the same MAC address.

d'oh - but it's easy to use :-)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Nice! Now all I have to do is purchase one from Belgium (I prefer my $20/mo unlimited 3G data plan...)

<comment><USER6> I've heard that the belgian iPhones, while "unlocked", only work with Belgian cell phone companies. I don't have any source, but its something to consider and watch out for. Somebody said its called "Nation Locking" or something.

<comment><USER7> I figured there would be all kind of tricks up AppleT&T's sleeves this time and if you want an unlocked phone, it's probably worth waiting a few months (weeks?) until the proper jailbreaking procedure is figured out.

<comment><USER8> Most likely within the next week. Its already been jailbroken(not unlocked)

<comment><USER9> Steve Jobs and Apple should be happy that there's an established lexicon around what you can do with the iPhone.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Google Bot now crawls arbitrary Javascript sites - <AUTHOR> http://swapped.tumblr.com/post/23133779276/google-bot-now-crawls-arbitrary-javascript-sites

<comment><USER2> I wonder how long it is until someone exploits the parallel nature of the googlebot's (presumably Chrome-based) javascript execution for general-purpose computation like mining bitcoins or something.

<comment><USER3> I imagine that Google imposes pretty strict limits on computation time for any javascript that is run, so I'm not sure how realistic that idea is.

<comment><USER4> Yes. If it really were able to deal with arbitrary Javascript sites this would imply that Google had solved the halting problem.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> This will negatively affect tons of analytics tools.

Time to start blacklisting googlebot UA strings from my custom javascript tracking tools.

<comment><USER4> I'm pretty sure Google crawls with a client that looks like a real browser to check you're not doing thus type of thing.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> It is likely that googlebot is running the chrome browser, so anything you can do in chrome, googlebot can do too.</comment>


Studio Tour: Firaxis Games - <AUTHOR> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzc8HGvByW4

<comment><AUTHOR> Thought this was interesting since HN likes to discuss office layouts sometimes. The small team rooms with optional privacy doors is one of the best I've ever seen IMHO.</comment>