Windows 8 - Designing for Metro style and the desktop - <AUTHOR> http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2011/08/31/designing-for-metro-style-and-the-desktop.aspx

<comment><USER2> While I think the new Metro UI is very pretty, and potentially might turn out to be a good contender in the tablet space, I'm skeptical that their plans for a dual system like this will work.

I'm reminded by the interviews with the original Xbox team at MS, who were apparently shouted at by a red faced Ballmer for weeks after they said that it wouldn't run Windows. Imagine how the Xbox's usability and popularity would have been reduced if they tried to run the Windows desktop on it.

It seems to me that there is a huge push at the upper levels in Microsoft to put Windows on everything.

Meanwhile, Apple realized the sad but true fact that most computer users are completely incapable of understanding concepts like the filesystem. They made a tablet that your granny can use without having to be taught. They made a system as foolproof as possible, while the power users who scream "walled garden" and "i needs my zsh shell on it!" can still use it as a casual device and jailbreak it if they want to get the features they require.

Many in the tech media lambasted the iPad as a useless oversized iPod touch, but look at it today. They shipped a "crippled" device that ended up being more usable to more people than the PC has been. They also successfully convinced users who want to be able to do things like spreadsheets and presentations to try things like Numbers and Keynote, which were completely redesigned for touch and work great on the device.

Microsoft hasn't realized this strategy, and I think many users will be worried by the initial lack of apps for Metro and try to use Word and Excel on a 10 inch touch device, and get angry with it when the UI is just too cumbersome.

I played around with a Windows 7 tablet at PC World recently. An anti-virus warning from McAfee or something like that was popping up and becoming modal every time I tried to open the Start menu, then when I eventually managed to kill it, the items in the Start menu were way too small to accurately touch. Text input worked like crap, and IE was barely usable. Anyone buying that device was doomed to constant frustration. (At the same time, a friend of mine, who is a hardcore Arch Linux user and a sysadmin, went in with the intention of getting an Eee Pad Transformer or other android tablet, and was so disheartened by the user experience of those that he left with an iPad 2).

Really, I don't want Microsoft to fail. Many people have hated them for many years, but these days it seems to be more pity than hate. If they released an excellent update to Windows for the desktop, still focusing on the mouse and keyboard, then pushed for developers to make awesome apps for Metro and had that only on tablets, I think they would be much more likely to gain some marketshare, especially if they pushed some cloud syncing features and integration with other products. Of course Windows 8 will gain marketshare anyway, I think mostly through OEM sales, but I don't think the tablet market will pick it up like it might if they focused on a solid tablet-only OS but played the vertical integration game with services.

Just my opinion.

<comment><USER3> I still think the iPad is an oversized iPod that's just ridding the iPhone's wave.

Back in the real world, grandmas don't buy gadgets or PCs, and when they do they've got nephews to help them.

Sorry, but the iPhone/iPad are game changers because they fit in your pocket. The Kindle is too, since it's the first rela replacement for books. The iPad on the other hand, besides being cool, just gives me a headache.

The iPad on the other hand just gives me a headache whenever I tried using it for more then one hour.

<comment><USER4> From what I've read, Apple started iPad development first, and then decided to use the technology on iPhone instead.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> > ...if you want to stay permanently immersed in that Metro world, you will > never see the desktop we won't even load it (literally the code will not be > loaded) unless you explicitly choose to go there!

This bodes well. I hope the Metro UI is as comprehensive as this implies, where casual users will never see the old UI. If you can do it on the iPad, it should be doable on a Win8 tablet (in the new UI).

<comment><USER6> Yeah, I read this and immediately thought of the terminal in OSX. Sure, there's a full unix environment beneath it all, and the people that want it (in most cases, developers) can use it. But, you can definitely use OSX, be willfully ignorant of the terminal and/or unix, and not feel like you're missing out.

If Microsoft can pull off a similar analog, I think this could really work.

<comment><USER5> The analogy that clicked with me is that Win8 is to Win7 as Windows was to DOS. It will always be around for legacy purposes but if you're creating an app today, you'd be crazy not to use build for Win8. And existing vendors will eventually migrate their existing Windows apps.

<comment><USER7> I agree. As an app dev who builds for the iPad and its 30M users -- why wouldn't you build for Win8 and its 100M users (if it flops) or 400M (if it sells as projected)? Sure there are 1B+ more users out there, but given that Win8 has the app store, I'll take the hundreds of millions with the app store.

Legacy windows slowly becomes the truck that Jobs spoke of. Metro becomes the car. Windows, having both, becomes the SUV.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> There's only one downside to the tile interfaces: many of the apps don't let you customize what gets shown. Recent "issues" with my Windows Phone 7:

\- Wonder what all the fuss in that younger generation is about and take advantage of your Zune Pass? Justin Bieber's face is now staring up at you.

\- You and the wife decide to try something "fun" and capture the moment? Yeah, that's going to be hanging out front and center on your phone. Hope there's nobody around next time you check for new mail!

I've actually moved both music and photos off of the start screen because of this issue. And I assume there are other apps (i.e. do you _really_ want people to know how many hours you've spent playing Angry Birds?) where this will happen to people as well...

<comment><USER9> I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying you dont want people to know the music you have listened to when they have full access to your phone?

To be honest, if someone has my phone unlocked I would be more worried about them reading my emails and messing with my facebook account than them knowing how many hours I played Angry Bird.

Also, you can set the background of your photo app so it should not be showing random pictures.

<comment><USER8> I spend a lot of time on public transit and occasionally open up my phone at work. I'd hate to embarrass myself in a public place.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> As much as I hate to defend Microsoft you have to admit they're essentially doing the same thing Apple is in OSX Lion. Just substitute Metro for the Mac's new iPad like interface. Both are splitting the difference by implementing a more modern system while hanging onto the desktop metaphor.

In some ways I'd even give Microsoft the edge (in that Metro Widgets/Gadgets can be interactive)

<comment><USER11> The difference is that Apple isn't shipping Lion on their iPads; they're shipping iOS. This is significant because it forces developers to write iOS apps for the iPad, and Lion apps for laptops and desktops, both very different usage contexts and user expectations. This means that any app you run will have been written specifically with your particular type of device in mind, typically leading to a more efficient and effective experience.

<comment><USER12> How is that different from what windows is doing? Their metro style is based off of the UI that was shipped with the latest windows 7 phones. If I write an application for winphone, it wont run on windows 8 (and vice versa).

<comment><USER11> The Lion "iPad interface" is not at all like the iPad interface (it's intended for a mouse and keyboard), and the apps a Lion user runs are regular Mac apps. There's only one app runtime environment on Lion.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I hope it will be possible to build applications that can take advantage of both interfaces in one executable. Then detect the current context and display accordingly. I like the idea of Metro, but I will like it less if I have to create two separate projects to accomplish what (in my mind at least) should be one.

<comment><USER10> It's really just an issue of themeing (There's already an unofficial Metro theme for Windows 7: [http://www.nirmaltv.com/2011/06/10/windows-metro-ui- theme-fo...](http://www.nirmaltv.com/2011/06/10/windows-metro-ui-theme-for- windows-7/)). You can create Metro like applications using XAML today and they look fine in a regular Windows enviornment (In many ways MS Money was doing it in 2001: [http://cache.lifehacker.com/assets/resources/2008/06/ms- mone...](http://cache.lifehacker.com/assets/resources/2008/06/ms-money.png))

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Metro is good, but it doesn't mean the Windows 8 UI will be. Just look at Windows Live Messenger.

<comment><USER7> What's wrong with WLM? I actually find it really usable. Maybe its the features more than the UI, but I find it simple to use.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> I just hope there will be a way to entirely disable the Metro UI. I'm sure it'll be fine for small form factor devices, but it has absolutely no place on my home desktop.

The new filesystem UI stuff is a welcome change, however. ([http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2011/08/23/improving- our-...](http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2011/08/23/improving-our-file- management-basics-copy-move-rename-and-delete.aspx))

<comment><USER16> >.., but it has absolutely no place on my home desktop

Why do you say that without even giving it a fair chance?

They haven't even revealed how it will play with a keyboard and mouse.

<comment><USER15> You're right, I haven't given it much of a chance. It'll be re-evaluated time and again as we get closer to release, this is just my feeling at the moment.

With 3 large monitors and lots of multi-tasking, I just don't see this being preferable to the desktop / window metaphor status quo. Not to mention 25TB of files to keep organised.

I realise this will all still be possible by running the "desktop app" (explorer.exe?), I just don't expect to do anything but run that straight away.

Again, I'm sure this will be excellent for small form factor and casual users (provided it's implemented well, which microsoft seems to be putting a lot of effort into), but for someone who uses a desktop for a large part of the day (for both work and otherwise) I don't see Metro as viable.

<comment><USER7> For a 3-mon system managing 25TB of data, I think explorer is what you'll use. I'll be shocked if there isn't a way to make explorer your default. If there isn't at lauch, someone will fix it.

<comment><USER17> They may also have difficulty getting large companies to upgrade unless the Metro UI is easy to disable. Lots of companies are still on XP because they considered 7 such a dramatic change; I'd guess that a forced major change to the entire UI could spell disaster for their Enterprise sales.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> I feel like Microsoft is putting a really nice hardwood tabletop on a wobbly, mismatched set of legs.

$5 says that when Windows 8 comes out, if you want to change your _personal_ path, you still have to go Start | Computer | Properties | Advanced System Properties | Environmental Variables. And if you go to Advanced Appearance Settings to set a different title bar color for inactive windows, it will still be ignored by Aero.

<comment><USER19> _$5 says that when Windows 8 comes out, if you want to change your personal path, you still have to go Start | Computer | Properties | Advanced System Properties | Environmental Variables._

Curious, why wouldn't that be the way you do it? How do you change your personal path on the iPad? You don't. In Metro you shoudln't be concerned with the personal path. You should only care in legacy mode. And in legacy mode you use Control Panel (or this other route you noted).

<comment><USER20> Or type Windows key, "env", enter. The real problem is the bizarrely small and unresizeable dialog.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> M$ is seriously over thinking this. The first commentator on the post has it right.

Step one should just be to theme Windows7 with the metro look, and apply animations to complete it. Having the two world design is less than ideal and unfortunately "so Microsoft."</comment>


Things ES6 should have fixed - <AUTHOR> https://coolaj86.com/articles/things-es6-should-have-fixed/ <comment><USER2> It's hard to take someone seriously when they ascribe floating point rounding error to a language defect.

<comment><AUTHOR> Sure, but isn't it a language design choice to only support floating-point numbers?</comment></comment>


In 2018, Windows died at home and nobody cared - <AUTHOR> https://www.zdnet.com/article/in-2018-windows-died-at-home-and-nobody-cared/ <comment><USER2> > Necessary Cookies are required for our sites, products, and services to > function properly. Necessary Cookies cannot be disabled on our sites using > the "Opt-Out" button below but you have other options for managing cookies. > Necessary Cookies include:

> \- Google Analytics

> \- Adobe Analytics

> \- comScore

> \- Akamai

> \- Nielsen

> \- Evidon

> \- Moat

> \- Cedexis

> \- Chartbeat

> \- Index Tag Manager

> \- Tealium Tag Manager

> \- Google Ad Serving

That doesn't seem quite legal, how on earth do you justify 7 pure trackers and 2 tag managers (?!) as absolutely required for the site to function?

<comment><USER3> Where are you seeing the above-quoted text? Is it a ZDNet/CBS or Microsoft website?

Would love to share your outrage, but can't find it on either.

<comment><USER2> It's copied straight from ZDNet's cookie management modal.

<comment><USER3> Not seeing any modal. Is it regional (I'm in the EU)?.

<comment><USER2> Maybe µBlock° was blocking it. You can access it directly at [https://l3.evidon.com/site/425/3445/22](https://l3.evidon.com/site/425/3445/22).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> what a load of crap. Windows is the only OS that can play modern PC games reliably. There are millions of homes with Windows 10 PCs, and your article sounds extremely desperate.

<comment><USER5> Agreed. I've been using Linux exclusively on my desktop for the past......4 years or so. I'm on the verge of building a new desktop with a Ryzen APU because I have a bunch of games that I want to play. Steam on Linux is amazing but still no comparison to running Windows on a machine.

<comment><USER6> I recommend looking into VFIO. IIRC it's not quite possible with the Ryzen APUs yet but you can use a dGPU for the guest system.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> And they are intent at killing off any stragglers by ever more intrusive advertising, auto installing crapware, and persistent useless notifications.

</comment><comment><USER8> Yeah right,

[https://www.fnac.pt/informatica/h10](https://www.fnac.pt/informatica/h10)

<comment><USER9> Out of curiosity, what is that link supposed to be? Not loading on my end.

<comment><USER8> The Portuguese home page of FNAC European store chain, loaded with all computers pre-installed with Windows 10, with the exception of a few Apple ones.

<comment><USER10> That doesn't really say anything. The argument isn't that Microsoft is ceding Windows' territory to a competitor, it's that the product category as a whole is shrinking.

<comment><USER8> Naturally, consumers can now keep their computers until they break, the 2 years upgrade cycle is gone.

However when those consumers buy a new computer, it is still plain old Windows.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Able Archer 83 - <AUTHOR> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Able_Archer_83 <comment><USER2> The Able Archer exercise was the backdrop of the show Deutschland 83. Very well done series.</comment>


Y Combinator When No One Cared - <AUTHOR> http://foundersatwork.posthaven.com/y-combinator-when-no-one-cared <comment><USER2> Back in 2005, Fog Creek produced a documentary called "Aardvark'd: 12 Weeks with Geeks", about their internship program. There are lots of great interviews in there, including Paul Graham and Jessica Livingston from the early days of Y Combinator (as well as interviews with Aaron Schwartz, Alexis Ohanian, and Steve Huffman).

[https://youtu.be/0NRL7YsXjSg?t=2946](https://youtu.be/0NRL7YsXjSg?t=2946)

<comment><USER3> This is amazing. Even as someone who has been vaguely around for a while (e.g. attended the first couple Startup School events), it's easy to forget that this is how it was. It really puts a lot of things in context.

<comment><USER4> This was around the nadir of tech in general. The dotcom crash was only a few years earlier.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> It's useful to think about Jessica's comment under the original message, that YC is "mass production of startups." What it really means, I think, is that YC is comfortable with more failure than other investors. They are spreading their bets wide by making many small investments, and as they have said many times, only a small percentage of those bets need to be right. That's quite different from how most VCs invest at any level. Most VCs are trying very hard to be right while making very few bets that are fairly large relative to their fund. And as the Kaufman report shows, that doesn't work. Most of those VCs are failing to show ROI to their LPs. YC's approach -- making many small bets and tripling down on what works -- is similar to some biological processes. Consider how mammals manufacture antibodies, for example. When an antigen is detected, we start to make tons of different types of antibodies, not knowing which ones will successfully attack the pathogen. Most of those antibodies turn out to be useless, but a few succeed, and their success is reported so that the body makes more. That is, massive, parallel failure is the precondition of success here. YC is like that. But instead of manufacturing antibodies, they're manufacturing startups. Those startups are attacking lots of different problems rather than just one. And it's hard to know in advance which ones will succeed.

<comment><USER6> I don't see the subtext that connects mass production and comfort with failure. In fact, I see mass production as a way to reduce failure rates. The idea behind mass production is to take a process that's done in a low-volume, idiosyncratic way and replace it with a process that can be reliably repeated at scale. With Y Combinator, that means replacing the rocky solo founder journey with a community full of of advisors and partners who can advise on topics like incorporation, financial planning, customer testing, investor relations, hiring, etc. There's no reason for a new founder to re-invent the wheel when the Y Combinator collective has already manufactured 1,000 wheels and gotten it down to a science. Founders should focus on their customers and their product - everything else should be 'mass produced' to the extent possible.

(An example of this sort of mass production is pg's advice to incorporate as a Delaware C corp. Advice like this can save your fledgling startup from a week of legal research. Having 'mass-produced' shortcuts to these sorts of managerial microdecisions can make or break a startup.)

<comment><USER7> I guess mostly because you're spending less on them in overheads.

When you can share the same overhead costs over 10 startups and expect 9 of them to fail, that's more palatable than spending the overhead 10 times for each individual company.

And it's not just monetary costs: you can get more done when you have all the companies demo day together, simply by having to arrange fewer meetings individually, and less time travelling/setting up etc.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I cared. Still do. Been here over 10 years.

I'd wager for every person helped by YC, another 1000 were helped by HN. There are lots of us programmers in the diaspora whose closest encounter to Silicon Valley is virtual, in places just like this.

Yea, yea, I know. There are lots of founders, investors, and celebrities in SV, but please don't forget about the rest of us, who just keep building and posting...for years.

<comment><USER9> Been here for almost 10. I think HN is terribly underutilized. It could be used in more practical ways to help the community at large. Currently the most direct way is to do a ASK HN or the monthly Ask Who's Hiring, however I would love for YC to push the same tools they built for their program (to help founders and companies) to HN and its userbase.

<comment><USER10> I think being _underfeatured_ is part of the reason why HN works.

<comment><USER11> Couldn't agree more. It's a good example of finding a simple, elegant and winning formula and letting it mature rather than constantly messing with it (i.e. trying to "improve" it)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> After lurking for many years, I finally decided to create an account to comment on this. We were one of the companies in that first group -- alas, for various reasons, we ended up leaving after a couple of weeks (sigh). But I do remember the interview process, the first meal or two, and meeting the rest of the founders. Looking back, it's pretty cool to have (very briefly and inconsequentially) been part of that formative time in YC's history.

A bit of background: We were a group of Harvard CS-ish undergrads, had been readers of PG's essays, and also noticed a fellow classmate's startup taking off (The Facebook!). The Summer Founders Program, as it was called, was actually pretty well advertised in our community. And, from our vantage point, it seemed to be both a great opportunity and prestigious (which of course tickled our over-achieving prestige-seeking 20-year-old selves). In fact, I turned down an internship after I'd accepted the offer, to do YC (and, amusingly, after we left YC a couple of weeks in, somehow got the internship again). I remember PG asking a lot of very good questions, and poking some pretty big holes in our pitch. I'm guessing they picked us because they figured we'd pivot into something more reasonable than the idea we started on. This being the pre-smartphone era, our idea of doing something cell-phone- specific (and algorithmically focused no less) probably seemed a bit dubious.

While no one (or relatively few) may have cared in the broader investment world at the time, we -- the young hacker / startup wannabes -- definitely noticed. PG, Jessica and the rest of the team did a great job attracting our attention and interest. And that, I'd venture to say, was a key element of YC's future success that was there from the very beginning.

<comment><USER13> Did you build your startup after all? These stories are really interesting, you should write more and share it.

<comment><USER12> Glad to hear it's (at least somewhat) interesting! We did not build that particular startup for personal/ founder conflict reasons that were related to why we left the SFP. But I ended up having a great internship experience with a small Boston-area company that summer, and after graduating the next year, worked at a big tech co. for a little while. Then, not following what pg's advice would have been I'm sure, I decided to go get a PhD in physics/ engineering of all things. I now run a small cleantech startup based on that work, and do look back enviously at how 'simple' a software startup can be (I know, I know.. we all face The Struggle).

Jessica's article really did take me back to those quieter days in 2005!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> What's also telling is that the program started in Boston and moved to Silicon Valley pretty quickly. In my own experience, it seems that the Boston startup scene is dying. Unless you're in life sciences. The ecosystem there seems to have given up on supporting early stage non-life sciences companies.

<comment><USER15> >the startup scene

I feel like this is one of those SV bubble things, that a place has to have a "scene" in order to have startups (and only SV has a "scene"). There are thousands of successful businesses everywhere, even ones that would be considered "startups". The only difference between SV and any other city is people are willing to throw money at ideas with no chance of ever turning a profit which isn't really a sign of a healthy ecosystem.

I wonder how many people who say "you need to be in Silicon Valley to run a successful startup" use MailChimp (Atlanta) or RunKeeper (Boston), or Venmo or Squarespace (NYC) or Duo Security (Ann Arbor, MI) or Dwolla (Des Moines, Iowa).

Whenever I hear "startup scene", I think of Juicero and wonder if that kind of company could ever actually ship a product if they were based anywhere but Silicon Valley. And I wonder how much that actually says about the "startup scene".

<comment><USER16> I'd like to see a listing of all the billion dollar IPO's or acquisitions in past decade with location on it. Both where it started and where it spent most of its time. That mighy help settle the question.

<comment><USER15> I think it might suffer from confirmation bias. Say Dropbox started in Milwaukee, WI, but was convinced they needed to move to San Fransisco to be successful. Maybe they would have been successful in Milwaukee, too, but now we'll never know. So now they're contributing to the startup successes that come from SV, but that doesn't necessarily mean that SF was what made them successful. Maybe the reason the parent thinks Boston's startup scene is dying is because people who create startups are leaving to move to SF because they think they _have_ to.

According to WalletHub, SF rates pretty darn far down the list of best places to start a business: [https://wallethub.com/edu/best-cities-to-start-a- business/22...](https://wallethub.com/edu/best-cities-to-start-a- business/2281/)

Maybe the number of success stories coming from SF has more to do with the sheer number of businesses that are started there? If 100 businesses are started in SF and only 5 in Tulsa, even if only 10 of the startups survive in SF while all 5 survive in Tulsa, people would still say "SF has twice the number of successful startups" even though 100% succeeded in Tulsa vs just 10% in SF.

<comment><USER17> DropBox is an ironic example because it actually started in Boston. Drew had grown up knowing VCs in the Boston area; some had even told him "If you ever start a company, we'll fund you." DropBox did the YC Summer Founders program, which at the time was located in Boston, but all the Boston groups also did a demo-days out on the west coast because Silicon Valley VCs were better. Sequoia gave them a term sheet within a week; all those Boston VCs that Drew had known forever dragged their feet and were like "Is there any money in sharing files? There are literally dozens of competitors, and none of them are making serious money", and that is why DropBox is in San Francisco.

I grew up in the Boston area as well, thought I would stay there my whole life, and a lunch conversation with Drew was actually instrumental in changing my mind about moving to Silicon Valley. The reason is precisely that: the Boston business climate is so conservative that you really can't get resources unless you're working on something that has made money for other people. I actually don't think I'd _start_ a company in the Bay Area now if I didn't already live here and have a wife with family here - there's usually a long period of learning your market before you have anything fundable, and it's better to spend that in a region where rent won't cost you a fortune. But the Bay Area remains the best place, bar none, to _scale_ a business, and it's quite likely that if your nascent business has any serious growth potential, it'll be fodder for a Silicon Valley competitor with $100M in funding.

<comment><USER14> This is the most spot-on reply to my comment ever. YES. A thousand times YES. THIS is the problem with Boston. It's probably a fine place to start something. But an almost impossible task to get it funded and supported. This is why I think it's on the downward path. Boston VCs are ridiculous.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Reminds me of that old Dropbox "ShowHN" post.

Looking back at old emails takes some heart, I'm afraid of the idea as I'd probably cringe too hard.

My Reddit account just had it's "cakeday" which means I'm in the "9th year club" and the idea I have comments from 9 years ago still publicly available kind of scares me. Too the point where I feel motivated to write a script to delete anything beyond >1-2yrs back.

Old comments on HN I'm not so scared of as I tend to put more effort to only post competent/civil comments here. Plus you can't delete them even if you wanted to.

<comment><USER19> > Too the point where I feel motivated to write a script to delete anything > beyond >1-2yrs back.

Please don't. I used to write a diary with meaningless essays when I was in the second grade. When I rediscovered it as an adult, I found them so embarrassing that I threw it away. It's hard to say how much I wish I hadn't done that. Those idiotic essays could have been my good memories; little reminders of how I thought in the past. Same happened with the old applications I wrote when I was starting out programming.

I still have an embarrassing history intact on various internet forums. I wanted to obliterated it some time back, but I realised there is nothing to feel humiliated about your past idiocy, it's in fact a great reminder to keep of how much you have grown.

<comment><USER20> As a personal reminder, I agree. No one else cares, until they do.

And when they do, any little thing in your past can and will be used as a social cudgel against you.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> "For example, we thought it would be ok to work on your idea each summer and go back to school in the fall."

I'd love to know more about this. Does anyone have insight into why YC changed on this point? Maybe it's just the obvious "people lose focus." But I'd like a confirmation.

<comment><USER22> [...] Let me mention some things not to do. The number one thing not to do is other things. If you find yourself saying a sentence that ends with "but we're going to keep working on the startup," you are in big trouble. Bob's going to grad school, but we're going to keep working on the startup. We're moving back to Minnesota, but we're going to keep working on the startup. We're taking on some consulting projects, but we're going to keep working on the startup. You may as well just translate these to "we're giving up on the startup, but we're not willing to admit that to ourselves," because that's what it means most of the time. A startup is so hard that working on it can't be preceded by "but." [...]

[http://www.paulgraham.com/die.html](http://www.paulgraham.com/die.html)

<comment><USER23> _> We're moving back to Minnesota, but we're going to keep working on the startup._

See, it's points like that that irk me. As though somehow leaving SV is abandoning your business!

Amazing how much people will pay lip-service to remote work and to the importance of other startup communities and then balk at people pursuing their ideas in "flyover country".

<comment><USER24> I think the problem isn't "Minnesota", it's "back to Minnesota". Back to the place where things were before they started the startup. Where they had other projects going on. Where they don't focus as singularly on their company.

Moving to Minnesota is fine. By if you moved to SV to start a company, what changed that made you realize SV wasn't a good idea? The declaration has "but" in the middle; what are you running away from?

<comment><USER25> > what are you running away from?

Rent maybe? There are lots of good reasons to run a startup in SV, NYC, etc. Direct access to capital, certain types of talent, and so on. There are also reasons to _not_ run a startup in places like that. Cost of living as it relates to runway length being the biggest one. Some startups simply need a place to sit and a reliable internet connection.

If you've come to the realization that you don't need any of the things big cities have to offer as it relates to your business, moving back to Minnesota or wherever is exactly the right call.

<comment><USER16> "Rent maybe? There are lots of good reasons to run a startup in SV, NYC, etc. "

Early on, I thought about doing one fairly close to MIT to get talent from over there. Many businesses come outbof that school. So, I figured a bunch of other people are doing it already.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> It's still pretty amazing that Y Combinator worked out as well as it did. Like a lot of very successful companies, it seems like the world just fell into perfect alignment with the vision.

It's interesting that acqui-hiring (as alluded to in the email) actually became a trend; even though it was later recognized to be bad idea (E.g. Yahoo's acqui-hiring tactics have failed miserably).

It seems like there was a false idea that tech talent was extremely precious and limited. It wasn't, but that didn't matter; acqui-hiring still became a thing and companies (and some foolish young founders) still profited from it.

<comment><USER17> Acqui-hiring was a trend long before YC. Companies have been buying startups because the founding team has expertise in a new technology that they want to get into since the MS-DOS days.

I also wouldn't say it's a bad idea, or that tech talent isn't extremely precious & limited. Rather, people with web programming expertise don't get acqui-hired anymore, because those skills have diffused through the population enough that you can get them easily on the open market. Companies will still pay lots of money for, say, deep learning or drone or self-driving car experts.

<comment><USER27> > Rather, people with web programming expertise don't get acqui-hired anymore, > because those skills have diffused through the population enough that you > can get them easily on the open market.

And not necessarily even by hiring anyone - a lot of the stuff that a decade ago you needed a reasonably competent programmer for, have become commoditized in the form of services or even opensource solutions. For example, you needed at least a programmer and a designer to build a website for your company, or had to buy those services from another company. Whereas nowadays you can set up a wordpress site, buy a nice looking template, set up a medium blog, or a shopify store for a few bucks a month. Of course, if you want custom stuff, you have to pay someone to customize it but it no longer requires as much of the knowledge you needed to build a site from scratch.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> And yet it felt completely obvious to many of us that were around since the beginning. YC, reddit, HN, and Dropbox are among the companies I definitely would have invested $1000 into, had the opportunity been available.

I predict the next generation of YC will be a scalable crowdfunding company. It will look more like a startup-focused Kickstarter than seed-stage Sequoia.

<comment><USER29> Didn't you just describe FundersClub's [1] business model? Basically a crowdsourced investment platform for startups.

Yeah, it was limited to "accredited investors" in compliance with SEC and tax laws in the US, but even that is changing, at least on paper [2].

[1] [https://fundersclub.com](https://fundersclub.com) [2] [https://www.cooleygo.com/can-you-raise-money-from- unaccredit...](https://www.cooleygo.com/can-you-raise-money-from-unaccredited- investors/)

<comment><USER28> Yeah, there are dozens of startups working on crowdfunding. AngelList should have been able to make something work by now, but it will probably be someone else.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> "Laboring away in obscurity, as frightening as it feels at the time, is the way a lot of good things happen. Maybe the way most good things happen."

....so there's hope for me!

</comment><comment><USER31> Nice. But I wonder if the focus is still on "young startups" these days, as it seemed to be back then.

I don't want to start an ageism war in this thread, but it would be nice if the vetting process concentrates more on ideas and business viability, and now includes experience as well as youth and energy.

</comment><comment><USER16> Sounds like YC was just another startup in the beginning. Doing a pitch for something that would change a bit later as often with creating new markets or segments. Started with small number of customers (founders). After some experimenting, you seemed to have scaled up.

Not much different than how I see startup process described here. Difference is yours creates other startups and will likely last a while. I've always thought of it as a combo of a fraternity style, boot camp, and mass production ideas all rolled into one thing. Also, you select for founders much like the fraternities at Yale, Harvard, etc select for and create business or political elites. Similar methods but opposite effect in innovation.

</comment><comment><USER32> Curious question. If YC started today, with the exact same manifesto but in the current environment as opposed to the one in 2005, could they still have been as successful?

<comment><USER33> I'll let you know in 12 years.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> Love the page width on that Summer Founders Program[1] link.

I also appreciate the fact that the URL still works! Well done making sure Cool Urls Don't Change.

[1] [http://old.ycombinator.com/sfp.html](http://old.ycombinator.com/sfp.html)

<comment><USER35> "We know India and China are full of smart people who'd like to come and contribute to the growth of the US economy, but our government won't let us bring you here to do it."

</comment></comment><comment><USER36> OP is now bookmarked next to this one from 2015 under _HN > history_:

"Looking back at 9 years of Hacker News" | [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10535210](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10535210)

</comment><comment><USER37> What was the dating site I wonder?

</comment><comment><USER13> > I admit that I was never very good at PR.

Quite the opposite. That email is really well written. Analyzing it carefully, it has pretty much everything important for a pitch email.

</comment><comment><USER38> On the topic of small beginnings, does anyone know if PG still reads HN? I recall when I first joined the site which, wow, was a long time ago, it seemed like he was a lot more active on it.

<comment><USER39> He does not. He stopped at the same time he announced his retirement from YC. (He'd at this point transitioned the running of HN to dang.)

<comment><USER40> I miss pg. He was really cool. I understand why he left, I think, but...

I miss your comments too! You should write more. Both essays and comments. I think it's easy to care too much about image and whether someone might stir up controversy. But you have genuinely interesting things to say. Even if HN doesn't feel like the kind of place you can say them, it still does a lot of good.

I don't know. Sometimes it just feels like you and pg stopped believing in us. Which I guess is understandable. One year it went from HN feeling like a part of the community to feeling like we're an adversary. After all, we -- the internet at large -- are small-minded reactionaries, right? Why bother?

But it's a perception worth changing. The old guard is still here. HN grew up, so there are more voices now -- there's more to sift through. But the voices that pg once enjoyed talking with are still here.

Setting all that aside, though: have a nice day! And thanks for everything you've built.

<comment><USER41> > But the voices that pg once enjoyed talking with are still here.

Just to be clear there are still a lot of incredible people who post to HN, but from the signs that I see, a fairly large chunk of early HNers who are well known in hacker circles basically stopped posting. And there are also a large number of people who are very reluctant to take part in the discussions here knowing how a vocal subset of HNers react to any post or comment : talk trash. Examples of the latter : tptacek, dguido and other secuity professionals. If you read some of the security related threads where tptacek takes part, you will notice that he is literally talking to a wall, people refuse to listen to the guy or try to understand the reasoning behind his comments, though he is respected in the security community and is always right on security related topics. Especially on security related threads there is dangerous advice floating around. Eg- use Tor or some stupid suggestion on how to trick the CBP at the border.

I also noticed the rise of anti-semiticism and just generally hateful comments when the topics of religion, nationality or Trump are brought up. This issue is only getting worse and god help the moderators who have to read these comments on a daily basis.

Though this might be controversial, the general quality of discussion has gone down over the years. I think this is inevitable : as the community grows, quality of discussion goes down. HN is doing incredibly well on this count, the discussions are still the best on any public forum, but IMO the quality is going down. As the community grows, veterans generally tend to become inactive.

(Before people point out that my account is only 159 days old, I've been part of HN for much longer under different handles.)

<comment><USER42> I respect tptacek's expertise in his domain. I sometimes argue with him in other topics, where he is out of depth but assumes that because his a respected expert in one domain he is also an expert in others when he is actually not an expert at all.

this applies to all sorts of things, and PG is no exception. PG is an expert on programming and on founding VC funded companies. he is certainly not an expert on most other things but would frequently comment on those things as if he was, and then act very defensive and shocked when he was criticized for things he was wrong about or tone-deaf about.

really this applies to ANYONE in this community. there is lots of very intelligent, well-reasoned discussion, but nobody ought to get a pass on things because of their reputation. we ought not defer to authority. we ought to discuss the arguments as presented.

<comment><USER41> I never said he should be given a free pass on all topics, I specifically mention tptacek as an example of an expert in the security industry whose _security related_ advice, people ignore here on HN.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Flippa: Marketplace for trading websites, domains and apps - <AUTHOR> https://flippa.com/

<comment><AUTHOR> Disclaimer: I'm not affiliated with the website in any way.</comment>


ReMail (YC W09) launches multiple accounts - <AUTHOR> http://venturebeat.com/2009/10/27/mobile-email-app-remail-gets-a-key-addition-multiple-accounts/

<comment><USER2> ReMail is the biggest let-down ever. They spoke for months about how they would change email forever, and what came out? A mail searcher.

</comment><comment><USER3> The app description mentions "reMail needs less space than you think: 100,000 emails take 500 MB on your phone - 6% of the capacity of an 8 GB iPhone, the smallest iPhone available"

What does that mean? If I have 1GB size 100,000 emails will that take 500MB of space on my phone?

<comment><USER4> I have 149,508 messages in my primary Google Apps box, which is using 4,706 MB. In ReMail, the same box is using 466.2 MB of storage.

<comment><USER5> My 45,000+ messages take 170mb. I've been using Remail for a few months now and find it indispensable. For an idea of how useful it is to me, I sort my apps by frequency of use and reMail is on page 2 of 6, after OmniFocus but before Mint.com.

It's one of those apps I didn't know I needed but use all the time now that I've got it.

<comment><USER4> Out of curiosity, how do you track frequency or recency of use? Just remembering, or is there data to be found?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> This line toward the bottom really caught my eye:

 _"Cselle said reMail will soon add a feature allowing users to upgrade by inviting 10 friends to to download the app."_

This is a brilliant move.

I might have to borrow a page from Gabor's playbook very soon. :)

(Also, congrats on the new feature launch. ReMail looks great.)

</comment><comment><USER7> Does it let you "flag" emails? That's my biggest beef with the default mail app.

<comment><USER4> It's not a mail app, it's a search index. Like X1 Search (Windows desktop search application) except on the iPhone and indexing Gmail/IMAP accounts. Its settings are separate from the iPhone's Mail app.</comment></comment>


JSON, interfaces, and go generate - <AUTHOR> http://talks.golang.org/2015/json.slide#1 <comment><USER2> In case anyone else is sitting looking at the first slide, clicking, scrolling and so on, and seeing nothing else. Press left and right arrow keys.

<comment><USER3> Thanks for that. Any tips on how to get past the 3rd slide? ;)

<comment><AUTHOR> Press the right arrow a fourth time :)

<comment><USER3> Ah-ha, I was attempting to swipe my way through with the trackpad. The arrow keys work much better.

Thanks!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> This is something I really don't like about Go.

80 lines of code to parse some JSON?

Meanwhile, in ruby...

      foo = JSON.parse(STDIN.read)

<comment><USER5> It is no where near 80 lines required to parse JSON.

[http://play.golang.org/p/H5yFV6VYaT](http://play.golang.org/p/H5yFV6VYaT)

There is some boiler plate, since you have a typed system, so you must define your types. Beyond that two lines of Go will parse a JSON blob.

        people := []Person{}
        json.Unmarshal(json, &people)

The article is giving examples of using an Unmarshal interface to convert the JSON code into typed Go objects. Hence more lines of code.

Such as the example of converting the JSON time string into a Time type.

edit: updated the example link

<comment><USER6> How does this deal with deserializing json arrays? Unless you have reified generics it's impossible. This is a common headache when working with Jackson.

<comment><USER7> The example linked and described already deals with deserializing json arrays. What trouble exactly are you experiencing?

<comment><USER8> Not the parent, but my biggest issue with arrays and nested objects is this:

Most JSON arrays come in the form

        {
            "objects": [{"foo": "bar"}, ...]
        }

Instead of `[{"foo": "bar"}, ...]`. So I need to create a temporary struct, it would've been nice to be able to provide a starting point or similar. Like `json.UnmarshalFrom(data, &foos, "objects")` (hmm, this gave me an idea!).

Another example is this:

        type Address struct {
            street string
            city   string
        }

And I want to parse that populate that struct with the data from

        {
            "name": "John Doe",
            "address": {
                "street": "Some street 1",
                "city": "Footown"
            },
            ...
        }

Again I have to use temporary struct.

<comment><USER9> For deeply nested structures, it'll always be a bit of a hassle. In your toy example, you can use struct literals to get to the guts of the object quickly.

[https://play.golang.org/p/VE90fwT0sE](https://play.golang.org/p/VE90fwT0sE)</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: How should I ask a startup about financials in an interview? - <AUTHOR>

I have an interview with a startup in a couple of weeks and I want to tactfully ask about their financial runway. What is the best approach to do this? Anything else I should make sure to ask? This will be my first startup interview. <comment><USER2> I'd be direct.

An interview runs two ways, your both assessing and weighing up each other.</comment>


Ask HN: How to deal with difficult subordinates as a manager? - <AUTHOR> I don't believe myself to be a difficult person or an overbearing manager. I certainly have goals that my team needs to accomplish and I work hard to listen to others and objectively hear out their opinions and ideas. I give credit where its due, praise my team members and generally try to be a good boss,leader, motivator, guide, example and team player...
In the past year or so, one of my subordinates has for some reason become very abrasive and difficult. When we are with others, my teammember will be very professional, but one on one will make snarky comments and backhanded insults, or just say things that are outright rude, or sit quietly and then when asked why, will imply that things will be my way because that's the only way.
I have been managing for years and never felt that I had a poor relationship with a teammate. I'm truly disturbed and trying to figure out how to handle it. I've done lots of introspection and I really do not believe I deserve this antagonistic attitude and every time I have tried to make things better, by opening a safe conversation, praising my colleague, etc., things seem to get worse.
Unfortunately, I can't simply fire or transfer this person for many complex reasons, and anyway, I prefer to work it out, and learn from the experience.
What (detailed) advice do the wise manager-readers of HN have for me? <comment><USER2> I'm not a manager, but I'm an undergraduate in a psychology. While studying psychology I was advised to try at least once psychological consultation on myself in a role of a client. I did, I've discussed a lot of things with a consultant, but the most striking question for me from a consultant was "did you asked him?" It was about some situation like yours.

If you didn't asked such a downright questions to a people before, that there is a little advise from me.

1\. Asking him describe his behavior, not his personal traits or motives. He could be offended personally if you said something wrong about his traits, and it wouldn't improve the situation. If you need to refer to his possible traits or motives, keep in mind that it is all your hypotheses and they are all wrong, because you couldn't make sense of the situation, i.e. they do not describe a reality.

2\. Describe him what you feel. Don't forget to mention your emotions, it helps tremendously. Judging by your text, I suppose that it could be something along the lines: I'm trying to do my job good, to be nice with people, I want a good relationships with others and you personally. I _need_ a good relationships with you, but it seems that I failed with that, I'm disappointed and sad, I couldn't understand what I did wrong.

3\. Express your hope to find a good resolution of this situation, and let him talk his mind.

Of course, it should be done in a friendly manner, without threats. If your verbal skills allow you to nicely affirm him that there would be no bad consequences for him in any case, that you seek how you could improve yourself, not to harm him, than you probably should do it.

It doesn't help you to become friends with him, probably, but at very least it could make him conscious about his behavior without offending him futher, and he would change it likely. Hopefully it would be a change for a better. :)

</comment><comment><USER3> Did you discuss this at a 1:1 with the person?

As to introspection, perhaps some more is called for. You refer to your colleagues as "subordinates" and think of yourself as "boss, leader..."

That's not the proper mindset to be successful as a manager in high tech. You're there to clear hurdles for individual contributors who are more technical than you (if they're not, you are either a junior manager managing even more junior engineers, or your company does not have a technical track to attract/retain good engineers), so that they can do their jobs more efficiently.

<comment><AUTHOR> I understand where you are coming from, and certainly my goal is to exactly "to clear hurdles for individual contributors who are more technical than you." It happens to be that this case specifically is not about a technical / developer role.

Still, ultimately I am responsible for the team's output and the team's utility to the organization as a whole. Without that concept, then what exactly are we doing here?

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> You can't be a manager and a team member. To the direct you'll always be the boss with a big flashing sign on your forehead.

Your direct is professional with the team and I presume still achieves good results?

Through one on ones don't bother find out why their behavior is the way it is. You're not a psychologist. Focus on the behaviors. What they say, how they say it, facial expressions, body language, their actions and work product. Constantly give both positive and negative feedback to gently steer your directs in the right direction. "When you make rude comments like that, it makes me think that you don't respect me and I hesitate to ask for your input on the direction of the team. Could you please change this?"

One other suggestion is that whenever you offer your directs a choice, your must always be prepared to honour their choice. Never overrule them. If you want input to help you make a decision, make sure you are clear that you aren't asking them to decide, only to provide an opinion. Build trust by giving choices and then honouring them.</comment>


GDPR Compliant Privacy Policies Like Creative Commons - <AUTHOR> https://www.achtungtechnik.de/english/2018/GDPR-statement-like-CC.html <comment><USER2> That's by far the best idea I've read so far about the subject.

</comment><comment><USER3> I don't think that will be solved in time for GDPR.</comment>


Ask HN: Price discrimination - <AUTHOR> Hi,
Due to a project I am working on, I was thinking a lot about trading formalization and related issues, and it brought me back to a question that was bothering me for many years.
There is a lot of companies selling products without a price tag — you simply can't know whether it is within your budget without talking to sales reps.
My assumption is that this method is used to get as much as possible off big companies (simply because they have money) and may be sell it to smaller companies at a lower price.
Given the product remains the same, it really kind of bothers me that the same product goes for different prices making some buyers having worse deal... just because they have money. Obviously, this is beneficial for sellers as it leads to potentially higher revenues.
It usually gives me an impression that such sellers either don't know value of their product OR they are always trying to exaggerate it.
I do realize that the same product might yield different values for different companies, but hey, this is definitely not only about how much money the buyer company has (I also realize that seller can actually analyze each buyer's needs and yielded value in order to find a right price).
May be I am just to much into trading formalization concept and missing something... is there any other benefits of "no price tag" approach, particularly for buyers? <comment><USER2> _is there any other benefits of "no price tag" approach, particularly for buyers?_

Yes. Say the marginal cost of a good is $1000. The fixed cost of developing the product was $900,000. There are 100 potential customers. In order to break even, the average sales price must be $10,000. But let's say that some customers can afford to pay $50,000, while most others can only pay $5,000. Without price discrimination, the product simply would not exist. If you charged $10,000 to everyone, the smaller companies simply could not buy. But if you price discriminate, and charge the small companies $5,000 and the big companies $50,000 you can cover your fixed costs and break even. Everyone wins. The producer makes money and both the small customers and big customers get a product that otherwise would not exist.

<comment><USER3> I never thought about this.

But what happens if the company that purchased the product at 50k finds out another company paid just 5k because of their size?

<comment><AUTHOR> Yeah, I am curious about this, too. Wouldn't it be better to formalize this approach? Lets say, base price is 50K but there is, say, a "Startup Edition" which is essentially the same but for companies that qualify as new startups. I've seen this approach used here and there. Sill price discrimination? Yes, sort of. Formalized? Yes.

<comment><USER4> This is becoming prevalent in the world of game engines, where the engines sell for big money, but companies making under $100K per year can buy for a few thousand (Look up Unity 3D or Torque for more info).

It serves as promotion and builds a much larger community for the engine developer. It also lets them get money from the mass-market, as usually the indie licenses come with less support requirements. For the big name publishers, they make a lot of money but provide the support SLA, custom development or source code access.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> "sellers either don't know value of their product OR they are always trying to exaggerate it."

You have a misunderstanding about value. Sellers CANNOT know the value of their product -- the value of their product is determined by each individual buyer given each individual buyer's circumstances. There is no "universal" value for a product. Products are traded for money all the time at various price points based on millions of criteria.

It's this misconception that's causing your problem.

</comment><comment><USER6> There are combinations of reasons for this.

Firstly to impede competitors a little (always worth doing).

Secondly because it encourages people to ring your sales line and talk to a human - a sale is a LOT more likely then.

Also it is likely the product is in the realms of enterprise or business class. Quotations might need to be customised etc.

People looking for this level of product are probably less worried about the price point.

And finally it is the kind of behaviour companies expect. They WANT to ring you up and be quoted.

<comment><AUTHOR> well, depends on a company. I run a company but I LOVE getting straight and immediate answer on a question "how much does this cost?" rather than spending weeks in phone calls with sales guy asking me "how much can you afford?". I think asking this question is somewhat silly :(

<comment><USER7> You can usually get pricing on a first call with an account manager just by saying "I'm interested, but I'm not going to talk to you again without back- of-the-envelope pricing".

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> You seem to feel some sort of moral obligation to price things as cost-plus. "This good cost me $90, 10% profit is reasonable, you can have it for $100."

You're upset by pricing based on value. "This good cost me $90, but it's going to save you $500 this year alone, so it is a steal at $250."

I guess my argument to you is that the goal is (naturally) to squeeze more cash out of customers. But the customers with more money are presumably getting more value out of the product.

For my current venture, we're selling software that helps keep students from dropping out of college. Our effects are measured in additional revenue to the school from students retained. Assuming we manage to provide the same percentage improvement to every school, the value we provide to an institution is going to vary widely. A small community college might have a third of the revenue per student as a private institution, and a small school might have a tenth as many students as a larger institution. My incremental costs aren't really all that much greater from school to school, but the value to the schools vary widely. It only makes sense to provide them different prices.

<comment><USER7> The first thing I learned in my first marketing job was never to use cost- based pricing. Nobody prices technology this way in the real world.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> I see a lot of conjecture about how secret pricing is or isn't beneficial, but one thing that seems to be overlooked is the complexity of enterprise class pricing.

If I call BEA (now Oracle) for a portal, the application stack is modular down to app functions, such that if I want publishing in my portal, there's a publisher module. Document repository is a seperate cost as well. I could buy 'just portal' if I really wanted, but without speaking to a BEA sales rep, in the absence of a LOT of prior experience, I simply can't know WHAT to buy.

That said, I've always found the 'per-seat' pricing model to be a pretty effective form of price discrimination. $10 a seat means that the 100 employee company is only paying $1000, but the 30,000 employee company pays $300,000. It's fair(ish), and it's an effective way to scale support costs as well without having to pay per hour or incident.

<comment><USER7> The problem with per-X licensing is that customers _hate_ it. People will pay more for a flat-priced product than they will for the equivalent licensed version, even if there's a site license available.

That doesn't make per-X licensing wrong (lots of web 2.0 startups seem to be doing well with it), but it's something to consider. For instance, consider the fact that the person making the buying decision at a customer might have to deal with a honorous justification, purchasing department, and PO process _every time_ their license needs change.

<comment><USER9> Interesting. Most of my customers are government, so I guess that's where the difference lies -- they like having a number to point at and say "that's how much it costs". Whether or not it's the cheapest product, it's preferred to ambiguously priced applications.

Of course, that's one of the main reasons they invented the GSA I guess.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> It's called Price Discrimination: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_discrimination>

<comment><USER7> It's also called "market segmentation" and "product line management".

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> I think that the business goal of secret pricing to get a high pressure sales guy on the in contact with the potential buyer to close the deal.

<comment><USER7> No, the business goal of "secret pricing" is the same as the business goal of not being the first to name a number in a salary negotiation. The person who gives a number first concedes an advantage to their counterparty.

Another practical advantage of not naming your price is that it ensures you get maximal contact with your market. If you publish a pricing matrix, some percentage of your market will (almost by definition) "price themselves out" of your product. You'll never even get to talk to most of these prospects. With "secret" pricing, you retain the ability to at least talk to them, to learn if it's feature/function you're lacking or if it's pricing, and to figure out what your pricing should be.

Note that there are a lot of tricks that PMs can use to get "secret" list pricing from competitors; you could use the same tricks to uncover prices as a customer, but it's much easier just to get on the phone and ask.

<comment><USER12> _Another practical advantage of not naming your price is that it ensures you get maximal contact with your market. If you publish a pricing matrix, some percentage of your market will (almost by definition) "price themselves out" of your product._

I call myth.

In the general case when there is an offering A that costs a known figure $X and an offering B that costs a phonecall only to get a quote then I won't even bother making that call unless there is a serious headache with offering A.

Not telling a price speaks "we are more expensive than the others". It also speaks "we will waste your time with phone conferences and powerpoint presentations" and "we wear ties and are very important, probably much more important than you".

None of that gets my business if I can avoid it.

<comment><USER7> Almost every enterprise product is "solution priced", with no published price list. You're getting upvoted because people don't like solution pricing, and I don't blame them. We're not doing it either.

Your general buying approach is probably sound most of the time, because the companies who publish their prices are usually the price leaders. In most markets there's a price leader (Honda), a premium leader (BMW), and a couple of niche players. Going wide with an attractive price list is the right call for the price leader.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> _My assumption is that this method is used to get as much as possible off big companies_

I think that your assumption is grossly inaccurate, and you should probably put some effort into basic sales and marketing concepts.

I will tell you that 9 times out of 10, when you think a corporation is trying to exploit some nefarious tactic to rip off some or all of their clients, that the reality is simply that you don't understand the process or are missing some key data point. IE: corporations are not all dark and evil. It's important to understand this and grasp it. Presumably you (the generic you) would like your venture to become large and sustainable and "big" someday.

Anyway, others in this thread have done a good job explaining some of the concepts of value-based selling and other reasons why for some products it is impractical to have a one size fits all pricing model.

To answer your question, though, one of the benefits of no price tag is that if you were to publish a median price, you might scare off some of your small or large clients from calling up. They would either think the product is too expensive and complex, or too simple and limited for their needs, when in reality neither is true. By talking with a sales agent a price that is fair and accurate for that customer can be established.

</comment><comment><USER14> A hidden benefit to consumers might be seen with complicated systems. If you were told that a complicated system was $10,000 base price, you might be upset that the typical price for the complete system is $30,000. You were expecting to pay one amount, but after realizing what your needs are you have a totally different price. The selling company can't expect to know what you need until you meet with them, which is why you have to meet before seeing a price.

</comment><comment><USER15> I finally registered on HN to make one short comment: Read "Why Popcorn Costs So Much at the Movies: And Other Pricing Puzzles". It's a short, readable book on pricing "for dummies" by Richard McKenzie (UC Irvine).

I have zero formal training in economics, and I found the book enlightening. It discusses price discrimination thoroughly - after all, it's a critical component of pricing theory.

I, too, find the thought of one buyer paying more simply because s/he can afford the price somehow "wrong". I don't fully buy the explanation in the book (mainly revolving around time opportunity costs, as I see it). But, at the same time, life is not always fair - morality and money are orthogonal to some extent. If this behavior were deemed harmful by society, surely it would be illegal by now?

[Edit: Minor Engrish nit.]

<comment><USER16> re: Popcorn -

I haven't read the book, but I have helped run a movie theater. The answer, if you're not going to read it, it that popcorn (and the associated food products) is how the theaters make their money. Sure, your ticket price contributes, but it's mostly to cover their constant labor and facilities costs.

If a movie theater schedules a showing, it has to run - doesn't matter if there's 2 or 200 people in the theater at the time. The labor to run the show is scheduled far in advance, and represents a sunk cost to the theater. That cost is seen by theater management as the cost of getting people into the building.

Once they're there, however, they're pretty likely to buy some food, based on the advertising and how the theaters are designed - which is pure profit (the material cost for a large popcorn is about 2 cents). It has incredible margins, and lasts forever (none of the stuff they serve goes bad).

It's similar to how TV works - their core business is selling advertising, and if the cost of business to do that is creating shows that people like, so be it. Put another way, the point of TV shows is to get you in front of your TV so that you'll watch some ads. Likewise, the point of movies is to get you in the building so you'll buy some food.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> A slight side step from the main discussion (do apologise for that), but does anyone know whether price discrimination is regulated/protected for consumers ? Just wondering if there's a legal side to it. i.e. is there a limit to how much a seller can price discriminate ? etc

</comment><comment><USER18> There are other alternatives to no price tag.. Think Tight-Ass Tuesdays, discount coupons, etc.. Some people will buy your product whatever the cost - others will only at a lower price.. To maximise the value/sales - the price spread is a good idea...

</comment><comment><USER19> Your question made me think about the topic thoroughly. I wrote a suggestion what to do, by letting the customer suggest the price.

<http://www.aleveo.com/ideas/voluntary-price-suggestions>

</comment><comment><USER10> Even with list pricing, the price does not often represent the costs. For example from Apple:

32GB iPhone 3GS costs $100 more than the 16GB model, yet a 16GB microSDHC card only costs $50.</comment>


ML Fairness or: "De-Biasing".. a bias in and of itself? - <AUTHOR> https://developers.google.com/machine-learning/fairness-overview/ <comment><AUTHOR> for more context see: [https://utters.io/eric_weinstein&ml_fairness](https://utters.io/eric_weinstein&ml_fairness)</comment>


Ask HN: Recommended password manager for personal(non-techie) use? - <AUTHOR> I'm looking for an easy to use password manager, with support for Mac, Windows and Android(Linux would be a +).
While I was talking with my girlfriend the other night, she was baffled at the idea of having a password manager - something I(wrongly) assumed people knew about. So what would you recommend to a non-techie friend/relative?
Further, while I would love to selfhost, opening ports is problematic at the moment - so that is unfortunatly out of the question for the time being. <comment><USER2> The things I don't like about LastPass:

1\. It only runs in a browser. Sure, you can store non-browser stuff in there, but it still requires a browser.

2\. You're locked into using only their chosen backend. There is no other way to share data.

Personally, I use 1Password. They give you an app that is separate from the browser, although they also give you browser integration if you want that. They also let you choose between multiple different back end distribution mechanisms, although they offer you the ability to use their backend if you want.

</comment><comment><USER3> DON'T use LastPass. I just found this thread after posting a similar one ([https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15962172](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15962172)).

LastPass is super buggy, and their support is like a broken record, sending basic debugging steps day long (Like "have you tried re-installing the extension and rebooting"). And on top of all that, you have to trust a single company to keep your data secure, on the cloud, where anyone could hack it.

Right now I'm trying out Enpass but am looking for others.

</comment><comment><USER4> I like keepassX, which is cross platform, offline, and simple to use.

<comment><USER5> Same here, and I put my very much non technical girlfriend on it, too. We keep the database on dropbox and it allows us to access our passwords on any device (Windows, Linux, Android, Web app).

<comment><AUTHOR> So, how do you handle new devices? Get the Dropbox pass from another device, log in, then load the database in KeePassX?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I use keepass and dump it in Dropbox. I don't think it takes much tech chops. You log into keepass as you would a site then grab the passwords you need.

</comment><comment><USER7> I use LastPass because I can access it on mac/linux/windows and android. I especially like it on andorid in terms on usability, since you can set up fingerprint login

<comment><USER8> Worth mentioning the security incident involving LastPass user data back from 2015: [https://blog.lastpass.com/2015/06/lastpass-security- notice.h...](https://blog.lastpass.com/2015/06/lastpass-security-notice.html/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> I'm slightly biased here, but I think you shouldn't distinguish non-techies from yourself. Mostly because you're secure only if they are secure, and in addition you can learn a lot about their issues if you're using the same products.

Can I ask you what are you using, if anything, and why you're not ok recommending that? (I'm genuinely interested, I'm working on a pass manager that's born in a very tech niche and we're expanding to less tech people.)

<comment><AUTHOR> The reason I distinguish non-techies from myself is that while I know my way around a command line, can compile stuff, debug to some extent etc, they/she can't. The same goes for my parents, and hers, as well as our siblings, uncles, aunties cousins etc. So while I may be ok using some application that requires some configuration and setup, the rest aren't.

Currently I'm not using anything, so it will be a case of eating my own dogfood(so to say). Whatever I'll recommend is the one I'll be using. As to why I'm not using anything - eh, a combination of laziness and faith in my own password rule.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> My wife and I use LastPass for our personal stuff. I use 1Password at work. Both have pros and cons. Both have a good web interface. Both are easy to use.

</comment><comment><USER11> I really like Bitwarden, it's opensource, has a clean interface and it's free.

<comment><USER3> Could you tell me a little bit about Bitwarden? Any glaring cons that you could think of right out of the gate? How is fill on mobile?

I'm really liking it so far (After ~1 minute of research). An open source password manager with a CLI (coming soon [https://github.com/bitwarden/cli](https://github.com/bitwarden/cli)), what's not to love?!</comment></comment>


Restoring YC's Xerox Alto day 10: New boards, running programs, mouse problems - <AUTHOR> http://www.righto.com/2016/10/restoring-ycs-xerox-alto-day-10-new.html <comment><USER2> They're running Bravo. That's a fun editor. An improvement on most of its successors.

You edit both programs and documents in Bravo. Programs in Mesa are usually written in variable-width fonts. (Somehow this never caught on. It looks nice. I used to bold Mesa keywords.) The file format is plain text, then a control-Z, then formatting information. The compiler reads up to the control-Z and stops, thus ignoring the formatting.

</comment><comment><USER3> At the rate they are going they will have python running on it before the year is out.

<comment><USER2> Won't fit. Max memory is 512KB. Less than an IBM PC.

<comment><USER3> It was more of a "tongue in cheek" comment about how fair they have progressed with the restoration with how little time they have spent on it (as they are not restoring this as a full time job).

In other words they are progressing so well they will have python running on it despite the "limitations" of the Alto just to prove they can even if its just a simple hello world. I'm not actually expecting them to port python to it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Starting to sound like this poor Alto has been to hell and back.

<comment><USER5> Or it is a FrankenAlto. I wonder how many different systems the components have been in.

<comment><USER6> I think this is more likely. In collecting older computers I've often come across "complete" systems which were cobbled together from a bunch of disparate systems of different origins.

Generally this isn't a problem is the person putting together the system is actually running it, they might do this to keep it running after its maintenance contract has expired (happened with a lot of VAXes and PDP-11's) but it is a problem if a scrapper wants to get a premium for a "complete" system and they don't know if it works or not so they just put "the required boards/parts" together and call it a system.

<comment><USER7> It seems weird that Alan Kay would have an Alto that is just a jumble of incompatible parts. And that YC bought a random mouse on ebay and didn't tell these guys about it.

<comment><USER6> Actually it doesn't seem that weird to me. I don't recall anyone who bought a system from Xerox (as I recall they were in house development only and cost about $75,000 each to produce). But I do remember when they were being scrapped and the word went out that some ex-Xerox employees were rescuing them and looking for others to take some. I was sorely tempted to take a Dandelion machine (this was the mid-range D-machine that I was most familiar with). I could easily imagine that Alan said "I'll take one" and whomever was organizing the rescue made sure all of the "parts" were included when it was long past the time when you could easily boot one up and see if it worked or not.

<comment><USER8> Exactly ...</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Can a world without passwords be secure? - <AUTHOR> https://www.trusona.com/ <comment><USER2> This solution completely bypasses the open standards based approach championed by the FiDO (Fast Identity Online) Alliance. There are no technical documents on their website about the SDK or the protocol.

While this technology seems intuitive and easy to use, I wonder if users will be locked into one vendor for all their identity. At the same time, when you have Frank Abagnale ("Catch me if you can" fame, head of FBI cybercrime) as an advisor, it changes the calculus. [https://www.reddit.com/r/security/comments/7g1700/there_will...](https://www.reddit.com/r/security/comments/7g1700/there_will_be_no_more_passwords_in_the_next_24/)</comment>


Review HN: 1clickwebpage - the easiest way to build a webpage - <AUTHOR> http://1clickwebpage.com

<comment><USER2> I like how quickly I can get a page up and running. I like the secret URLs for editing, so I don't have to deal with another password.

As others have said, you could add a lot to the site with some extra design options, and a simpler color scheme (if not a few color scheme options). I think there's a lot of low-hanging fruit in the design piece that would really improve the offering.

A couple of features I'd like to see, that would be easy to implement:

\- Expiring pages option (delete the page automatically after 1, 3, 6 or 12 months)

\- ability to add a Google map

\- ability to add a password

\- go directly to an URL that doesn't exist yet, and be offered the option to start using it right away

I use cl1p.net for this kind of thing, and its great. But I'd like a similar service that was a little more polished for ephemeral items like directions and instructions.

Congrats on getting it out there. I wouldn't get hung up on all the mailing lists, merchandise, and event stuff right away - keep it simple and work on improving what you have.

</comment><comment><USER3> 1\. 'groupped' is not an "interesting spelling" i'd like in my url. if im using a one-click page builder, i probably don't know much about building websites, and i probably don't have friends that know much about building websites. trying to explain why its spelled "groupped" wouldn't be easy, natural, or particularly fun. 2\. the colors make me want to cry.

i totally respect the "just get something out there" m.o., but i'd like to see it reflect more of "full site builder and a mailing list and a way to charge people for events/merchandise" before another "launch".

</comment><comment><USER4> The default page name "MyFirstWebPage" was already taken when I tried to create it. I'd just make the user enter something in here since I'd imagine it's pretty unlikely that you'll be able to default it to something the user is going to end up using.

<comment><USER5> Or, for people who want to demo it, default the page name to something that's actually available.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> The site seems easy to use, but I think <http://jottit.com> is easier. You don't need to select a site name or enter your email address before your site is created. Although you can afterward if you like.

</comment><comment><USER7> It's not very good. You want the cold honest truth, right? Your attention to detail is very lacking - the details are what make the difference between average and good, and right now you are slightly below average in your attention to detail.

</comment><comment><USER8> I wasn't persuaded to enter my email at that point.

Secret URL - how am I going to remember it?

Nice design. It's a good idea for notes. You might want a quick sharing bar.

<comment><USER9> > Secret URL - how am I going to remember it?

Bookmark it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> Suggestion: Change the default color scheme. Saturated green and dark brown is not a nice combo. Blue links on dark brown doesn't work at all.

</comment><comment><USER11> Not too bad, you definitely make it easy, but not having the ability to float/justify anything other than left is a big problem, and the output just looks really plain.

Some options to customize the colors of the page background and putting a little padding between the footer and the end of 'my' page would also be nice.

</comment><comment><USER12> When the "Oops! The site name can only contain alphanumeric characters and dashes." error appears (I tried "x" as the site name), "You can change all the content below once you create your webpage" is half in the white box and and half in the black border of the box.

</comment><comment><USER13> Could you give the option to get rid of the page header or make it not be a self-link? Changing the bg colours and the ability to have my own domain would be great too. I can see it being useful.

</comment><comment><USER14> I'm on a 12" Powerbook running Firefox 3.0.11 at 1024x768. I'm unable to scroll down on your page. I think it's because of the persistent footer you have. The remaining portion appears to be within the space of that footer and so my browser doesn't let me scroll down much further. About 1/4 of the content is unavailable to me.

</comment><comment><USER15> I made a page. Does the 'Congrats! Your site has been created' message hang around forever? I mean, it's showing up for me when I go back to it (not the secret URL). I wish there was a way to dismiss that message.

</comment><comment><USER16> I created a page but it seems to be tagged at the bottom as "Copyright © Groupped 2009". A bit of a disincentive to put real content in. It would also be nice to have a "delete" button. I'd free up my page again.

</comment><comment><USER17> This is not bad, but I can't see how it can be good or useful, which people are you targeting with your service?

<comment><AUTHOR> yeah, I was a little worried that it's too early to be useful, but like I said on the about page, it's for throwing up a quick piece of info on the web, like directions to a party, or a user group meeting. Or, placeholder pages for any sort of organization.

eventually, it'll grow into a full site builder and a mailing list and a way to charge people for events/merchandise. more here: <http://blog.groupped.com/>

I'm just going really slow trying to balance the consulting gig and this and a few other ideas at the same time. Hence the launch to atleast get SOMETHING out there. Thanks for the feedback.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> <http://fuck.groupped.com/>

:]

<comment><USER19> Don't be evil.

<comment><USER20> I expected a site called "fuck" downmodded to -8 to be a lot worse.</comment></comment></comment>


Twitter Cracks Down On Spam Accounts - People Lose Followers - <AUTHOR> http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/07/24/twitter-cracks-down-on-spam-accounts-people-lose-followers/

<comment><USER2> Watching your follower count like a hawk is a little like obsessively checking HN to see whether your comments have been upmodded and/or provoked replies.

(thinks)

Oh dear.

<comment><USER3> I don't think there's anything wrong with paying attention to what's essentially a discussion forum. Tracing one's follower count would be akin to tracking the "Read" stats on a forum topic instead of "Replies."

<comment><USER2> Nothing really wrong with it. But let's just say I'm glad there's no "Subscribe to these comments via SMS" option :-)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Honestly I hoped this nuked a couple of my followers. I block new ones which seem spammy, but a few were borderline who I gave the benefit of the doubt.

</comment><comment><USER5> finally, the spam accounts are annoying.

</comment><comment><USER6> Next thing you know, they'll be deleting your copies of 1984 and Animal Farm.

<comment><USER7> Losing follows because they were spam accounts equates to Amazon deleting 1984?</comment></comment>