"You're on the verge of losing everything but you don't understand why" - <AUTHOR> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-42789610 <comment><USER3> How this would have looked in the US.

* Relationship with girlfriend breaks up and you move in with parents.

* Parents medical bills eat up everything they have and more when they pass away their creditors swoop in to take anything that's left.

* You are kindly told you will be moved to the street so you get a job. Your part time job pays enough for you to crash on a couch or at best maybe rent a room somewhere if your lucky.

* When you get attacked you have no insurance so you now owe $5000 which you have no way to pay and a prescription for opoids.

* You apply for disability but get denied. No help is forthcoming. You quickly lose your place to live about 3 days after the rent is due. Nobody cares why you can't pay. Your address is now the street corner where you stick your pile of dirty blankets.

* Due to your financial situation and eviction you will never be able to rent anything without substantial money up front and nobody wants to hire you.

* After the initial perscription(s) of opoids wear off you now have pain AND an addiction unlikely to be satisfied legally. You turn to panhandling and use the money to buy heroin.

* You get a dose that happened to be cut with something far too strong and nobody realizes your dead until someone complains about the smell.

<comment><USER4> I'm going to tell a story about two people and two outcomes and hope people will read it.

One man in Europe suffered a serious illness and was unable to continue in his previous career and had no new marketable skills. He had access to a robust social system that covered his living costs, medical care, and re-education. After several years of treatment and learning, he now has a wife and kids, amazing job that works with his disabilities, and a future. That guy is a former acquaintance of mine.

The second guy in the USA also lost his life due to medical issues, in his case a misdiagnosis and poorly done surgery. He had to then live off of savings and a tiny pension (which he was fortunate to even have but covered a fraction of his costs) with no insurance or access to good medical care since he lost his job provided insurance. He fought in court for years for disability and was denied repeatedly. He bounced around trying to find a place to live and access to services, even cheaper countries, but could never get legitimized or stabilized anywhere as he had no real support. He tried to self educate but the lack of stability and increasing medical issues without proper care always disrupted any attempts. His loved ones abandoned him as is all so common in long term illness and suffering. Depression and suicidal thoughts then take even more of that precious energy and he knows down deep at his age, and with his needs, all is lost. That guy is me.

So the takeaway is next time you are faced with the issue of social systems and if they are "worth it" or if people "deserve" your contribution to the whole, please remember this story. If you can't care about the human element and need a practical reason, think about whether it's truly better for society to bring people back into the fold and make them a productive part again, or if casting them off as broken and useless is really "better". More importantly think about if it was YOU or a loved one in need...who could have a future and contribute if just given the opportunities. It's too late for me but maybe not for you and the next person in my shoes.

<comment><USER5> Here is another story: [http://www.iquilezles.org/blog/?p=2659](http://www.iquilezles.org/blog/?p=2659)

When I read this I cried. I'm also the lucky bastard who got to live in a country with a great social system, but if I had been born in the USA, I could've been that woman. I would have fucked up, and probably somehow managed to fuck up my relationship with my family (last line of support without a functioning social system), I love them and they're here for me, but I fear I might've burned bridges because of all the stress and psychological issues, if it wasn't for the social system in my country. In the US I would have ended up on the streets, probably become an addict, probably be dead.

<comment><USER4> The number of people in this situation in this country is so huge people just cannot accept it and ignore it for their own bias/sanity. That woman is stronger than me as I would never last out on the street and have always said I would end things when it gets to that point. The savings will run out soon enough and the last room in the last corner of the last resentful family I have is wearing thin, so my resolve will be tested sooner rather than later. I have avoided the addiction route so far as most drugs just make me feel worse, but I can completely see how it so easily happens to so many. There comes a time you just want ANYTHING to take away the pain or make you feel different if even for a moment.

It's enraging to know what you need is very possible and being done elsewhere...but you aren't "allowed" that chance to live and people all around you are adamantly against it. I will never understand this cruelty and selfishness.

<comment><USER5> (I really hope you still read this, because I didn't see your reply until five days later, sorry)

I'm so sorry to hear about your situation. I wish you all the strength. _Hugs_.

Good to hear you're avoiding addiction so far, it will sap your resolve like nothing else. Please also remember that alcohol is a terrible addictive hard drug that will drag you down just as easily as the illegal drugs would (in particular as soon as you use it for escape, like you describe). It's basically an unnecessary extra fight you have to fight in addition to all the other shit. I'm actually struggling with that a little myself, but the social help I can get here (as well as a super supportive family/parents), gives me relief and space needed to battle that too.

Even with proper social support, mental health problems are super hard. Other people [including gov help] can't fight the fight in your head for you, just point one in the right direction, provide motivation, and perhaps take other weights off your shoulders.

Sorry, I just read back your post and your problems are physical. The following advice remains the same.

You may be able to find people that want to help. Just random good people are out there. But even if you find people willing/able to do that for you, it's a difficult and humbling search to find out _how exactly_ they can unburden you without it actually costing you just as much energy. If there are people willing to help you, think very hard and make a good and clear plan. Be clear how exactly they can help you, especially the little things, that may be super easy for others and hard for you. You need to tell them explicitly and without shame. One other thing that is important is if you know a generous angel, is to discuss how _often_ you need this help. Maybe your neighbour will help you with groceries or taking out the trash (or whatever), but if you actually depend on that help, while they're just happy to help out their neighbour this one time, you'll be expending as much energy finding _someone_ to help you this week, and the next. I get that it's hard to ask someone offering help to help you even _more_ , but if you understand what I'm saying you will be able to explain. Ask them to be honest and only offer you time they are comfortable with (and without regretting it after a while). Maybe they'll tell you they can realistically help you take out the trash once a month. That's cool, because that's one out of four weeks. But now you know someone you can depend on, you know what you're asking is not too much for them, you can _feel_ better about getting the help, knowing this is what they're comfortable with. I'm not saying you should refuse one-time help, but that it's important to _have_ this discussion (openly) so you know _when_ (or _if_ ) you can depend on them again.

The above is a piece of advice I got from a magazine that people in my country (Netherlands) receive when they are on long-term disability benefits (called "UWV Perspectief", for any Dutch still reading along). It's a great magazine (beautiful design and typography too :p), even if I find it hard to read because it's kind of confronting, I'm kind of amazed that this thing exists.

I am so incredibly thankful for this aspect of my country. I'll be forever in its debt. I try to repay as much as I can by doing volunteer work, teaching kids programming and computer stuff, helping them studying for math tests (and just being a kind person to them--the place where I work has a social function for kids with difficult backgrounds too). That way I'm using the things that I learned studying Computational Science, all that knowledge I can't use in a "proper" (paying) job, because I can only do it for 10 hours per week (I need the other time mostly to rest, and keep my apartment in order, administrative stuff, laundry etc, which is equally taxing for me). It gives me meaning and feel I'm contributing to society (maybe even more than _some_ paying jobs that people do; but that's a very personal opinion and I'm in no position to be on a high horse).

I really hope that you pull through in some way or another, and find a way to live with ease.

<comment><USER4> Thank you for the response. I always appreciate well meaning people but the problem is there has never been any truly actionable advice. People tend to react one of two ways when you tell them "that hasn't worked"...either they retreat into silence or they attack out of defensiveness. This is universal in my experience no matter how I approach it. The only way to avoid one of these is to say "thank you I will try it" to make them feel good then retreat yourself.

I have never met anyone who has survived in this situation who didn't have lots of help...either social support, family support, or both. I have none of that thus my hopelessness. I am clinging to Maslow's bottom rungs and expected to somehow "self actualize" nonetheless.

I hate my life, hate where I live (country and location) and see no future. I have asked for help directly and clearly for over a decade and gotten ignored or blamed. Anytime I do ask for that help the results are ALWAYS the same...most people ignore, some get angry out of guilt or bother or whatever and attack, a handful offer contacts and commiseration and maybe one of those people actually respond but end up disappearing after giving me standard self help advice from books or forums that is always inapplicable or out of context. It's why at this point I just complain when I speak of things as I have learned asking doesn't change anything. I need practical, concrete, consistent help. If I had that I believe I could get some semblance of a life back and contribute...but after this long and things getting so much worse I am giving up as it's shown to be pointless.

This country and culture is so anti everything I need and won't change in my lifetime if ever...and I cannot get myself established anywhere better for me. Knowing it's practically possible but I cannot access it has ruined me and I am just about done.

<comment><USER6> I keep thinking about your situation. This is something that I really care about. In the long term I hope to shape society to deal better with these scenarios; in the short term, I'm living in a flatshare working on my startup for less than minimum wage, so capacity to do anything tangible is frustratingly limited.

I've got a couple of dear friends in similar situations to yours. So far they're making do, because they've gotten lucky and found sheds in the back yards of sympathetic friends that they could live in long-term (or equivalent scenarios). Absence that kind of informal safety-net, their situations would be significantly more dire.

I'm in the UK with long-term health issues that the NHS has been a godsend for -- but my visa status is uncertain, and being bounced back to America is always a risk. Health would be a major concern should that happen, and income concerns would follow shortly thereafter. My last-ditch backup plan, in that case, is to go mostly off-grid and move back to Arcosanti (www.arcosanti.org), where I (partially) grew up. The cost-of-living there would be wildly reduced, making financial survival possible unless my mobility/pain became 100% untenable. Maybe something like that would be viable for you?

<comment><USER4> I could never survive in even less robust conditions. I need certain things, certain services, medical care that requires long time to deal with etc. I have reduced my life to the bare minimum survivable for me in the name of preserving money and it's not enough. Any "advice" requires reducing more or suffering more either through subtraction or addition. I can't live like that. I had some plan to write a post here in AskHN to lay it out and maybe some miracle idea or plan would result but I finally realized I have done that sort of thing repeatedly over the years and the predictable results always take rather than give so there is no point.

Anyone I connect with in private and spend energy engaging and explaining things to in depth just repeats the same script of things everyone things you can and should do and I end up more depressed and hopeless and they end up disappearing either outright or after some lecture and victim blaming. I know why they do it, to preserve a sense of security for themselves, but it drains me nonetheless. I can't get what I really need in this place and can't realistically establish anywhere I could. Hope has gasped its last breath.

<comment><USER6> I get that. Unless you explain the situation to me in detail, I _definitely_ won't have a useful solution for you. And even _after_ you explain the situation to me in detail, I _probably_ won't have a useful solution for you. This would be a lot of emotional labour for an interaction where the median expected value seems very low, and the mode is zero. Totally get why this isn't something you'd want to go through repeatedly.

(Actually, describing it in this way reminds me of pitching a book to a publisher, or a startup to an investor. Each pitch takes a really significant amount of energy, and you have to be prepared to do it many dozens of times with completely null results -- and with no guarantee that there will ever be anything _other_ than a null result. This breaks a lot of peoples' spirits. I know a handful of brilliant writers with unpublished novels sitting on their shelves, because they just couldn't keep going through the pitch-rejection cycle. As writers, they are probably superior to, say, Agatha Christie, who endured five years of nonstop rejection before making her first sale. But they are not as stubborn, and therein lies the rub.)

So, yeah, I understand. The only thing I can counter with is that even if you _feel_ like you've explored the whole possibility-space, you haven't. Nobody has -- ever. There may be solutions for you; there _always_ may be solutions for you; the question is how to maintain the core internal energy to keep searching for them.

I don't have any super-brilliant advice in that regard. Only thing I can offer -- and you've probably already gotten this plenty of times; apologies if so -- is that meditation can be extraordinarily helpful for this kind of thing. Not _immediately_ helpful -- the benefits can take weeks or months to fully kick in -- but simply being in touch with your breathing, and training your mind to be free of the cycles of worry which it otherwise is (necessarily) consumed by, can help you find that core of energy if it exists. In general, if you are breathing: it exists. And even if it is doesn't, meditation can help you look at the situation more dispassionately. What you _don 't_ want to do is to make permanent decisions out of exhaustions or frustrations which may not, in a bigger picture that you haven't been able to consider, be permanent.

Final bit of advice: if you don't have the ability to meditate (physical or mental challenges can sometimes make this impossible), psilocybes can provide a viable shortcut for similar results. I definitely recommend not checking out until you've consulted with them first. What have you got to lose? :-)

<comment><USER4> I do meditate and it, like most things, has SOME beneficial effect, but not near enough and not near as much as the label on the tin says in my experience. No access to psychonaut stuff but I'd try in the right conditions with someone I could count on.

I have drafted the "last ditch Ask HN for ideas" post but not sure when to post it. I know if it goes badly or is ignored outright it will really affect me and bring me down hard.

I am so far beyond mind game stuff being able to help...I need Maslows bottom rungs stabilized before I can do the rest...people always expect you to do it backwards.

<comment><USER6> > I am so far beyond mind game stuff being able to help...I need Maslows > bottom rungs stabilized before I can do the rest...people always expect you > to do it backwards.

Oh yeah, I definitely appreciate that self-actualisation can't happen without the lower tiers being stabilised. That's not what I'm saying; all I'm suggesting is that mindset counts for a _lot_. I'll going to try be delicate about this because I don't want to come off as victim-blaming: I completely understand that the circumstance you're in isn't your fault, and the right mindset won't make opportunities for getting out of your situation magically appear. But the wrong mindset can without a doubt blind you to legitimate opportunities that might exist. This is why I recommend working on it.

As a rather concrete example: -- going to have to redact some details here for confidentiality reasons -- I recently hired someone for part-time work, whose situation resembles yours in a number of respects, including long-term unemployment. I was not able to pay for full-time work or at market rates, but our new employee is still earning a meaningful multiple of what they were getting on benefits, so it's a solid step up. I can see how the role they've taken might, at some companies, be tedious -- but the way we do things, it's an intellectually stimulating, self-directed, remote-work, set-your-own-hours- and-pace sort of job. So far this new employee is loving it. I have high hopes that it'll help them get that bottom tier of the pyramid firmed up.

In fact it's a job that I'm absolutely certain you would have the ability to do, and would even enjoy -- but the superficial job description is one that I've already seen you explicitly rule out as "soul killing". And probably at 90% of companies, you'd be right. At the other 10%, you'd be wrong. But that all-important 10% won't be available to you if you block yourself from seeing it.

In order for any opportunities to be available to you, they must both objectively exist _and_ be subjectively perceived by you. For the former: yes, I have no doubt that such opportunities are few and far between, but given your obvious intellectual abilities, I _know_ that they exist. I have more concerns for the latter, hence my recommendation that you interrogate your assumptions and your perceptions.

Anyhow, I've banged on about this enough, and hope you take my criticism in the constructive spirit it is intended! I would sincerely like to see things work out for you.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I know most people here are fairly well-paid, intelligent and many are well- adjusted and stable. But it'd be mistake to assume this happens to other people. Sometimes a series of unfortunate events (lost job, lost child, lost marriage) trigger a series of events, helped by alcohol and poor-decision making and resulting in homelessness and poverty.

When I lived in Oxford I came across a book put together of mini-interviews of the homeless there - their stories. It really surprised me how many of the biographies started off with a well-paid professional job with a happy family and spiralled out of control.

<comment><USER8> A bout of depression or a series of unfortunate events can certainly put you into a tail-spin that's difficult to get out of. I've been there; it's like you know what you need to do but something is weighing on you with such a force that it can be very difficult to fight against.

Ending up on the streets with nothing is a natural conclusion and what happens then is partly a test of character and partly luck. For many it's the end of the road.

<comment><USER9> > Ending up on the streets with nothing is a natural conclusion and what > happens then is partly a test of character and partly luck. For many it's > the end of the road.

I would argue that it is a test of society. We should judge ourselves on how we treat the weakest amongst us.

<comment><USER8> I agree in principal but society is currently set-up to help those who are first to ask for it.

Paradoxically, many such problems come-about as a result of being reluctant to ask for help because it is perceived as a sign of weakness.

<comment><USER10> I think this is actually one particularly good reason why society should be set up in such a way that this kind of help is so 'normal' that it wouldn't even be considered asking for help.

I know quite a few people who lived on unemployment for a year or so, whether between college and their first job, between various jobs, or because of mental health issues. While even here (NL) there's still a stigma attached to 'doing that', I'm convinced that none of these people would've taken this path if it wasn't so relatively normal.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> It's a tragedy that the country of Nye Bevan and Clement Attlee has come to this.

I'm reminded of a quote that I think I first read in "Chavs: The Demonization of the Working Class" (NB strongly recommended):

 _" There's been class warfare for the last 20 years, and my class has won"_

Warren Buffet

Edit: I'm in the middle of reading "Citizen Clem" and what an extraordinarily capable chap Attlee was. Here's a good article on him in (of all places) the Daily Mail:

[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3174009/DOMINIC- SA...](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3174009/DOMINIC-SANDBROOK- Labour-s-greatest-leader-teach-squabbling-pygmies.html)

Edit2: Even Thatcher was a fan of Attlee: _" Of Clement Attlee, however, I was an admirer. He was a serious man and a patriot. Quite contrary to the general tendency of politicians in the 1990s, he was all substance and no show."_

<comment><USER12> I've not read "Chavs: The Demonization of the Working Class", but from what little I know of it one (probably minor) thing that Jones tries to establish is that the very word "Chav" is a classist acronym for "Council Housed And Violent".

This is a retrofit for narrative purposes, invented by Jones, who seeks to demonise the word and in doing so police its use. The origins of the term are much older (before council houses in fact).

Having read quite a number of his columms for the guardian, he seems to represent a lot that I dislike about the UK left and their tendency to try to redefine popular terms in such a way as to demonise their users. It's straw- man fallacy writ large - you said "chav" therefore you are classist (Tory) scum. Actually I said chav because that group of loud, ridiculously dressed arseholes over there is starting to kick off, I don't give a shit what their socio-economic background might be.

I have left-leaning tendencies, I think the benefits system in the UK is a f*cking shambles, the NHS needs help and is an essential service, that there's a lot more we can do to help our people thrive and succeed. But this vein of pious language-warping really puts me off from identifying with the self- identified left or the Labour party.

<comment><USER13> >The origins of the term are much older (before council houses in fact).

This may be true, but FWIW, the first time I heard the term it was introduced to me with a similar backronym. And not as some "isn't this awful classism" disclaimer, but as a gleeful denigration of the people it referred to. That there is an older etymology does not necessarily mean Jones invented the backronym.

>Actually I said chav because that group of loud, ridiculously dressed arseholes over there is starting to kick off

While I too have used the term, and feel like I was doing objection to genuinely unpleasant people, I remain suspicious of this argument, because it sounds a lot like "I don't mind black people, I just don't like black culture". A lot of what gets read as obnoxious is just cultural differences, and this is especially true of judgements like "ridiculously dressed".

<comment><USER12> >> That there is an older etymology does not necessarily mean Jones invented the backronym.

It seems to originate with him, AFAICT, or at least at more or less the exact same time. And it fits his narrative suspiciously well.

I first heard the word 'chav' used a good decade before the book.

>> "I don't mind black people, I just don't like black culture".

I don't believe dressing and behaving like an arsehole are necessarily part of working class culture. I could be wrong. It's not my background, though it is my mother's and a variety of my friends'

<comment><USER13> Obviously not all working class people are part of the same culture, but I think the very fact that the stereotype of "Chav" exists beyond merely being obnoxious (since there are obviously obnoxious people who we wouldn't consider "Chavs") suggests there is a cultural component.

And it's when you say including aspects like clothing that the idea starts to sound classist. How exactly does someone "dress like an arsehole"? Is their clothing somehow inherently offensive, or do you just dislike it because it doesn't fit your own aesthetics, and/or because you associate it with a negative type of person?

<comment><USER8> 'How exactly does someone "dress like an arsehole"?'

Just guessing, as a random sample of the ways some people choose to dress in the UK.

Wearing pyjamas and bathrobe in the supermarkt?

Wearing sports clothing despite looking like they don't ever actually do any sports?

Wearing trousers/jeans that don't go all the way up to the waist?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> > Mullings, your legal advisor, tells you it might not feel like it, but > you're one of the lucky ones. At least because this was a housing case you > had legal representation. If you hadn't, you would have been steamrollered.

Primarily as a result of cuts to the legal aid system[1]. Design a benefits system that's incredibly complex and all too easy to fall foul of, and then deny any kind of legal assistance in the inevitable appeal. I hope Iain Duncan Smith and his colleagues are one day able to reflect on what they've created.

[http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/legal-aid- cuts...](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/legal-aid-cuts- benefits-cases-state-help-dla-esa-ministry-justice-disability-living- allowance-a8028936.html)

</comment><comment><USER15> Given the bureaucratic complexity of welfare and social support in most countries there might be a solution to a problem nobody wants to see.

Welfare support has long time ago reached the level where it's difficult if not impossible for a normal, working, and still mentally capable person to understand everything and their caveats — not to mention someone who has first had hard luck, is then subsequently out of energy, and is finally subjected to the experience of being a cog in the very machine that is the bureaucracy.

From programmer's point of view the obvious solution is encapsulation.

Let's keep the private parts to the implementation and only offer a reasonable public interface. That means a dedicated social worker who knows both the rules and knows you.

An outsider can't be expected to chug along with the ever-mutating directives, laws, guidances, and rules that are part of the bureaucracy's own operation and related legislation. Let the bureau have people who take human descriptions of one's life and work out the best plan out of available benefits. The insiders have the knowledge of what works together and how to make the system work.

This would also be more efficient: failed applications, missing actions, mismatched assumptions, eviction orders, court cases, etc do all cost the bureau some time and money already in the current system. If there was an inside person who could rule out the impossible branches right away and check eligibility on the applicant's first or second visit, everyone would save time.

<comment><USER16> There are volunteers that perform this function. However, the hostility of the bureaucracy today is _not an accident_. It's a matter of policy. The intent is to make people go away without paying them money. The people responsible blind themselves to the fact that some of these people "go away" because they have died.

<comment><USER17> > some of these people "go away" because they have died

For anyone thinking this is hyperbole, one recent case[1] was of an anorexic woman found dead in her freezing cold flat because she couldn't afford to run the heating. She had been sanctioned for missing a jobseekers meeting due to being in ICU.

1: [http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/anorexic- woma...](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/anorexic-woman-dead- universal-credit-benefits-cut-found-freezing-cold-flat-too-ill-meeting- elaine-a8045796.html)

<comment><USER18> When you combine stories like this along with the massively convoluted legal system and incredibly dense surveillance penetrating everything all the time, it makes me terrified to even visit the place. When traveling to Europe I route around instead of doing stopovers in UK.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Ignoring the obvious welfare complaint, which I incidentally agree with, it paints a pretty good picture of all the health and social problems leading up to this situation for a lot of people. It also shows how the health of the previous generation can cause havoc on the current generation, a problem which I'm dealing with now.

If we improve physical and mental health over the next couple of generations I think there will be a massive shift away from this failure mode. The problem is that those services are being cut as is the education that supports them. So we're screwed.

Also a 4 year cycle on government before someone comes and erases progress or long term goals instantly and just burns a mountain of cash doesn't work either.

</comment><comment><USER20> First bit of literature I have read in second person for quite some time. I actually really liked it as a refreshing change to the usual format. I feel like it lends itself to a deeper connection with the subject (in this case Tony).

<comment><USER21> tangential-second-person-links:

[http://adamcadre.ac/if/photopia.html](http://adamcadre.ac/if/photopia.html)

[http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog- static/2011/06/rule-34-...](http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog- static/2011/06/rule-34-2.html)

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> I lived in London for several years.

I've met people that were very open about scamming the system.

I once knew a person, that went to London 17 years ago from another Country. He managed to get a not fit for work benefit and housing. His later then 'wife', they never got married but have a child together and live together, got some illness. Never met her, he was saying that was a genuine illness and not like his and she can't work.

So that person that I mentioned above, owned a car and a motorbike. Not sure if those items were under his name or not. He also worked at a car mechanic shop for money under the table.

In the 4 years I knew him, he was never caught, nor anyone went to his supposed house to check if he is there or what he is doing.

That guy was literally skimming the system for money without any control. At some point he and his 'wife' found out about another scam that they could run, if she gets evicted by her landlord (both of them were getting housing benefits, but they were presenting that they were staying at 2 different properties while he was staying at her house) she could somehow get a free house. So they decided to bring a dog home so that the landlord sends them out. They got send out. She was put into a b&b with her daughter for a few months, while he was staying at the other house the benefits was paying for and then I've no idea if the scam worked or not.

To be very and completely honest, I did look into how I can report that guy, just because I didn't find it fair, that I am paying taxes and there are people like this person on the article that really need the money, and you get those people that just scam the system. All I got from googling how to report someone, was that the reporting system sucks so much that the HMRC won't really do much about it.

That sort story is just there to show you whats wrong with the system in general.

<comment><USER11> Absolutely, I've lost friends over this very point - cheating the benefits systems makes me just as angry as people who don't pay their taxes. But which one is actually the biggest problem for the country?

 _" Benefits fraud costs the government £1.3bn a year, according to official statistics, while the gap between tax owed and tax paid is put at £34bn a year by officials."_

[https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/13/benefit- or-t...](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/13/benefit-or-tax- evasion-row-over-the-tories-targets)

<comment><USER23> I've come to thinking: there's no method which makes the system fairly accessible to all those who need support, which also doesn't allow for some level of exploitation by bad actors. As the level of fraud is reduced to zero by tests and policies, more deserved beneficiaries of the system are shut out.

I actually still get a bit more upset over benefit fraud than tax fraud, as (disclaimer) my family are beneficiaries due to my brothers autism - the hours and stress required to successfully navigate the system cannot be underestimated. Most recipients of disability payments etc will tell you it is a full-time job. The moral failure of benefit fraud is paid for twice - <USER2> materially by the taxpayer, again spiritually by the recipient. For me, another argument for the qualitative moral and social components of education - which seems to have been stripped away of late... A rant for another time!

<comment><USER24> > I've come to thinking: there's no method which makes the system fairly > accessible to all those who need support, which also doesn't allow for some > level of exploitation by bad actors.

Basic income for everyone would be one way, but that brings its own set of issues and challenges with it

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> Well, in the US you'd have already lost everything and been homeless just for the medical bills of your mother, let alone your father later, and you after that.

<comment><USER26> That's an inflammatory mischarachterization of the situation in the US. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it is not common enough to qualify as a "would".

<comment><USER25> Not common enough? It's the most oft-heard story, and the most common complaint about the health coverage system there. A single accident/illness can deplete your savings account and/or send you homeless. Heck, I personally know people were that happened, and I don't even know that many people there.

Here's how common it is:

(...) Nerdwallet estimated that 57.1 percent of U.S. personal bankruptcies are due to medical bills, making it the leading cause of the financial calamity that often precedes homelessness.

Although the tipping point is often the loss of a job, sickness or injury often precede it. Sickness and injuries make holding a job difficult, which leads to income declining and homelessness for those without a safety net. Due to the mostly employer-based health insurance coverage system in the U.S., no job means no health insurance. The combination of unemployment and poor health can then lead to financial ruin.

[https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/01/how- hea...](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/01/how-health-and- homelessness-are-connectedmedically/458871/)

I just returned from the annual conference of the National Health Care for the Homeless Council, where the link between medical bankruptcy and homelessness was made more clear than ever. (...)

Illness and medical bills were linked to at least 62.1% of all personal bankruptcies in 2007. Based on the current bankruptcy filing rate, medical bankruptcies will total 866,000 and involve 2.346 million Americans this year – about one person every 15 seconds.

Most medically bankrupt families were middle class before they suffered financial setbacks. 60.3% of them had attended college and 66.4% had owned a home; 20% of families included a military veteran or active-duty soldier.

78% of the individuals whose illness led to bankruptcy had health insurance at the onset of the bankrupting illness; 60% had private insurance.

69% of debtor families had coverage at the time of their bankruptcy filing; 60% of families had continuous coverage.

[https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2009/6/28/747432/-](https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2009/6/28/747432/-)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> Here's the book of rules used to make decisions.

[https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/decision-makers- gu...](https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/decision-makers-guide-staff- guide)

Have a look around it. Especially, have a look at the page counts.

<comment><USER28> Wow... their Decision Maker's Guide [DMG] is huge...

      DMG Vol 1 Ch 1: Principles of decision making and evidence, 70 pages
      DMG Vol 1 Ch 2: Claims and applications, 114 pages
      DMG Vol 1 Ch 4: Supersession, suspension and termination, 148 pages
      DMG Vol 1 Ch 5: Work-focused interviews, 188 pages
      DMG Vol 1 Ch 6: Making appeals and staying, 123 pages
      DMG Vol 1: Amendment 54, 72 pages
      DMG Vol 1: Amendment 53, 92 pages
      DMG Vol 2 Ch 7 Part 1: Common subjects [070000 to 070899], 188 pages

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> Reminded me of Daniel Blake [http://www.imdb.com/title/tt5168192/](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt5168192/)

<comment><USER30> The penultimate paragraph mentions that film.

<comment><USER31> Indeed. I heartily recommend watching it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> Government everywhere has a massive usability problem. Ignore the policies themselves, ignore the values they represent, the relationship between citizen and government should be easy and coherent. The solution here is, actually, better software.

It's the difference between the law and the way it is enforced. If surveillance capitalism has taught us anything, it's that people will put up with almost any policy as long as it's easy. We should use this knowledge to build interfaces to government programs. Indeed, I foresee a time when one's smartphone keeps all your data, and a "government program" is literally a program that runs on your phone and lets you know, proactively, if you are eligible, and enrollment is one click away. We can and should incrementally approach this goal in all our work.

</comment><comment><USER33> Time for UBI?

</comment><comment><USER34> So you read this story. It's entirely written in the second person. You get annoyed by that, because the story isn't really about you, it's about someone else. You keep reading anyway. You are appalled by the complexity of the social safety net and all of the needless bureaucracy, and how this makes people including you more vulnerable if something goes wrong.

<comment><USER35> In fairness, I've known a number of English people who tell stories exactly like the author did in this case. It feels more authentic - I can imagine the subject of the tale speaking in exactly the same manner.

Nah'mean? You pick up a book, see, and it's all written like the author's telling you how it happened. Gets under your skin, right? Makes it more personal somehow. You read some more, and you get sucked in, lose yourself like.

<comment><USER7> Yes, it's an East-London working-class style.

</comment></comment></comment><comment> jarl-ragnar All very lamentable but you read it and get a sense of someone who is largely passive and to whom life happens. Where's the sense of ownership and shaping your own destiny?

<comment><USER7> 'lamentable' is such a passive word to describe someone's life becoming a living hell and ruin. Not everyone is able to organise their life, not everyone is clever or successful, and certainly most people do not shape their own destiny.

The question is what do you think is ok to happen to people like this? Are you ok with this happening to people in your community? For some people the anwser is 'yes'. Those people might be selfish, or uncaring. Maybe they lack empathy. Maybe they don't believe it is happening. Even if they are selfish, they'd also have to believe the chance of this happening to them is going to be very low.

<comment> jarl-ragnar I guess I'm questioning the spin that the BBC article put on this. And no I'm not ok with this happening to people. However, there were opportunities where he could have helped himself - exhibit better judgement on who he chose to drink with, thus avoiding the stabbing; - understand that the change in benefit payment is making it his responsibility to pay the rent. Let's face it he must have noticed the increased payment to him when that first rent cheque landed in his account.

Living in the UK and being subjected to this sort of "journalistic" output from the BBC day-in-day out, I read it as a propaganda piece by the BBC designed to support their agenda.

<comment><USER7> Not everyone is capable of keeping up with modern life, being responsible for bills, payments, admin, forms etc.. particularly if it is made deliberately convoluted, or if there is a concurrent medical issue.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


TripAdvisor could challenge the big two providers of online travel services - <AUTHOR> http://www.economist.com/news/business/21611100-tripadvisor-could-challenge-big-two-providers-online-travel-services-david-vs-two

<comment><USER2> A total crock. Having worked for an OTA I can guarantee you that the last thing TA will do is try to build an entire backend to book the hotels themselves. In hotels you only make good margin on huge volume since they more you bring customers the better numbers you can demand. It's not just the processing, it's the relationships with thousands and thousands of hotel chains and individual hotels. It's customer service and dealing with all of those hassles. It's competing in all the different types of hotel booking submarkets (tonight, opaque, long term, vacation, packaging etc). Getting a small percentage of so many sales with almost no expense is way easier than getting more margin but having huge outlay and competing with the big guys (namely Expedia mostly in the US and Priceline mostly everywhere else in the world outside of China). They would be insane to switch their business model. Orbitz is too dinky to compete effectively and Travelocity gave up and is essentially Expedia now. Tripadvisor is in a great place where they bring traffic to everyone but compete with no one. Once they lose that they will lose period. I highly doubt E and P miss their percentage at all.

<comment><AUTHOR> > TripAdvisor's boss, Stephen Kaufer, denies he wants to take on the big two. > "We are a media site," he says. "I want Expedia and Priceline to thrive > because they are my clients."

Looks like the boss agrees with you.

> But soon, holidaymakers will be able to book their entire trips without > leaving the TripAdvisor app. Rivals beware.

The Economist is known for making bold predictions. What do you think this one is based on?

<comment><USER3> They could be reading too much into it. The on-site booking still talks to OTA's back-end API. It's probably most useful to small OTAs who don't want to bother/don't have resources to build their own top-tier UI. But a site like Expedia will probably have their own, nice, well converting UI.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> This is the Harvard Business School case study mentioned in the article: [http://hbr.org/product/TripAdvisor/an/511004-PDF- ENG](http://hbr.org/product/TripAdvisor/an/511004-PDF-ENG)

Another fascinating article on how TripAdvisor took $4 million of invested capital to build a company now worth almost $14 billion:

[http://www.businessinsider.com/scaling-is-hard-case-study- tr...](http://www.businessinsider.com/scaling-is-hard-case-study- tripadvisor-2012-8)

</comment><comment><USER4> I work at TripAdvisor and am quite enjoying myself.

I'm happy to answer questions to the extent of my ability.

<comment><USER5> Can you break down the commission structure that differentiates TripAdvisor from someone like Yelp? Stop me where I go off the rails:

        - TA collects reviews, good or bad, for free from users.
        - Then they set up commissioned links to someone like
        Expedia for the hotel.
        - Expedia pays them a commission for closing the sale.
        - Expedia then passes the reservation on to the hotel.
        - The hotel gets the booking, and pays Expedia for the
        lead.

As long as there is enough money in the system to support two layers of outsourcing on BizDev, this sounds like a fairly stable relationship...

...If TA starts booking directly, however, it can do any of several things:

        - Charge lower rates than Expedia
        - Make more margin on the same booking
        - Provide bundling or other discounting not available
        from the existing Expedia arrangement
        - Start selling "preferred listings" which always float
        to the top of search results

It strikes me that the only reason this relationship exists is that Expedia doesn't have a good review front-end... Because the spun it off as TA.

Is there any back-end connection/relationship/ownership across Expedia and TA that would facilitate these two not eventually competing as described above?

EDIT: Formatting.

<comment><USER4> The way that I think about TripAdvisor is that we have become a location that aggregates traffic that is interested in booking a hotel (or restaurant, or attraction) better than anyone else. And this is a nice flywheel: more reviews means more value to users, which means better SEO traffic and brand awareness, which means that this the best place to write said reviews.

Once the visitor is here, they peruse our content, photos, etc. and we direct them somewhere else to complete their transaction. Instant book is a way to streamline that transaction for our visitors.

I can't comment on the whether or not we'll ultimately compete. Ultimately is a long time.</comment></comment></comment>


On linear programming formulations for the TSP polytope - <AUTHOR> http://spokutta.wordpress.com/2012/01/05/1311/

<comment><AUTHOR> This paper is making some waves in Operations Research circles:

        We solve a 20-year old problem posed by M. Yannakakis and prove
        that there exists no polynomial-size linear program (LP) whose
        associated polytope projects to the traveling salesman polytope,
        even if the LP is not required to be symmetric.

This argument is independent of the P-vs-NP argument, as it doesn't consider the encoding length of the coefficients.</comment>


Any hardware hackers here at YC? - <AUTHOR>

Well here at YC I see a lot of startup talk surrounding software and the web, which I am totally down with. I do have a huge passion about hardware and electronic design. Any of you out there with passion in hardware? Perhaps a startup around hardware?
Personally I want to be involved with a software and hardware startup some-point in my life. I think we have many software/web startups and not enough startups in hardware. I might be wrong. Thoughts? <comment><USER2> The problem is that for a startup in hardware the initial investment will be much more important. If you look only at the development tools (for example : simulation tools) it is already very expensive. And if you don't want to be only a R&D startup, you will have to invest in very expensive production hardware. Maybe the easiest way to start alone is to be a hardware consultant.

<comment><USER3> umm, maybe sorta true only. currently with the price/performance of fpga's fast approaching custom asic's, i think fpga's are not a bad bet to start hacking stuff on.

also, you can buy fpga h/w approx 100k gates etc. for < 1000$ (cheaper if you are student, and can get it via some univ. program). design, and simulation tools are also available for free (with periodic registrations etc.) the only (slight) pain point being that the s/w is generally windows only.

<comment><USER2> FPGA allows you to do digital hardware. My point of view is that a startup will have troubles competing on digital hardware development. Digital hardware is kinda "easy" developpment that can be done much cheaper in eastern europe or asia. For a startup to have a chance to succeed, I guess it would be better to focus in a niche market which required tricky analog design that can not be outsourced or done much faster by big companies.

<comment><USER4> Digital vs. analog probably isn't the issue - how well your device solves the user's problem is what people care about. Start with the problem your device should solve first.

<comment><USER5> This is a good thought process for software, where the marginal cost per user is near zero.

Unit costs matter in hardware though, so first thoughts should tend more toward markets and demographics -- "what problem should I solve... for how much?"

A new Ferrari (or a new Prius) would solve my getting-places problem better than the POS I drive now. I could buy a new Tesla Roadster, which would be better than either one, but that's even less affordable.

Of course, since a hardware startup requires some hefty NRI that you'll probably have to borrow from someone else, you might want to start by polishing up your resume.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> A lot of comments here have focused on implementation details. Let's ignore FPGAs, startup costs, etc... One huge advantage of hardware, is that you actually have something you can sell. As an interesting hardware startup archetype, consider Body Bugg:

<http://www.bodybugg.com/>

Long story short, they built a device to monitor health, but realized, only after being harassed by clients, that the real market was weight loss. Like ebay, they literally had clients begging them for a product.

Personally, I'd love to work at a hardware startup :)

</comment><comment><USER7> For sure. I love both the hardware and software sides of things, though unfortunately I don't have much time to dabble with electronics any more.

My last project was a computer-controlled kegerator (while I was in college, of course), called the kegbot:

<http://tlrobinson.net/projects/kegbot/>

<comment><USER8> wow, that's you? my friends freshman year were all about kegbot! _bows down_

<comment><USER7> Don't give me too much credit, I wasn't the _original_ creator of kegbot, I merely implemented my own version of the idea.

Mike Wakerly deserves that credit: <http://hoho.com/mike/>

<http://kegbot.org/wiki/Main_Page>

<http://kegbot.org/project/index.php.html>

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> My formal education and majority of background is hardware (EE undergrad and grad). I also work full time doing hardware design and firmware mostly. The problem with a lot of hardware is the initial investment and that things take longer. If you are just hacking some simple hareware together like a microcontroller and nothing special its easy to proto, but if you get into things that need to be prototyped on PCBs the cost and time goes up, especially the time factor. I tend to enjoy software more these days simply because I can compile things and test them right away. It can get onerous when you spend days laying out circuit boards, a week or two to spin them, then 2 weeks to get them built, while you just spent about 10k for 50 prototypes.

</comment><comment><USER10> I've considered doing a startup that develops and sells integrated instrumentation for yachts and sailboats (lighting, wind measurements, depth, speed, motor sensors, etc. ) I have a pretty good knowledge of yachting (I live on a boat) and see a market. The stuff that's already there is expensive, a few years behind technologically, and it seems that no great hackers have discovered this niche. I have some thoughts on how to improve this, and would love to hear from hardware hackers. My mail is in my profile if you're interested.

</comment><comment><USER11> i have recently been interested in microcontrollers, chips you can program, to control things like motors and leds, and to recive data from sliders / knobs (potentiometers)

i got some PIC programmer and some pic chips and started doing some experiments ... but it seems like for me, a mac os x user, the AVR is a better option

im looking to buy some AVR "kits" from smileymicros.com very soon, as soon as i get some money ;) (i live in mexico so i have to pay more to get fedex)

im into programming music apps to make my own music, and i see a lot of potential to make hardware to control music/sound

hey, if you try the smilemicros kits, let me know ;)

<comment><USER12> Look at Arduino. The entire design and software is open source. You can buy or make.

<comment><USER11> thanks jgc

ive heard a lot about the arduino, i think im gonna get one or build one

but i also want to be able to build my own circuits, to learn to program the microcontrollers, so i can get closer to the idea of designing the hardware for my software

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I dabble a little in hardware hacking. I just had fun interfacing a simple temperature sensor to my little one's OLPC. Will blog that shortly. Now I'm playing around with Arduino and want to hook it up using an XPort.

</comment><comment><USER13> I worked for a short while in gaming hardware design at IBM before starting 8aweek. From what I've seen and heard hardware startups take a LOT more money and have some major risk.

I would really be weary of trying to start a hardware startup. You have to be a known expert, well connected, and have a good business team on your side.

Web startups have an insanely smaller barrier of entry. So if you want to start your own, I would definitely do a web startup. If you're just going to join one then I guess I would go with whichever idea I was more passionate about.

</comment><comment><USER14> I always think of hardware as "the part you can kick" :-) I suspect people are more interested in software because it seems so much less expensive to get started with, especially web based stuff.

<comment><AUTHOR> This is an interesting point. I think you are right in some ways. People seem to admire software more then hardware. I personally have a thing for beautiful hardware and industrial design. Apple fits that bill but there are lots of other companies that have done some brilliant hardware design that stand out. My inspiration came from being part of the FIRST robotics competition in high school.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> If anyone is interested in doing interesting hardware/firmware work, get in touch. Our startup is doing some exciting work in the digital cinema space. We're using the Analog Devices Blackfin processor, which is a pretty sweet piece of kit.

<comment><USER16> Tell us more!

I'm not doing embedded gigs right now, but as I'm once again leaving my 9 to 5 job, I may be forced to sell myself soon :)

<comment><USER15> I just added my contact info to my profile, so e-mail me and I'll tell you more. :)

Be forewarned, though, that the person who takes this role will be working for equity/deferred compensation like everyone else, so it may not be the right gig for you if you need to replace a 9-to-5.

</comment></comment></comment><comment> a-priori I dabble a bit. I'm a ham radio operator, so I've built and tinkered with radios before. Also, when I have some free time and money (mostly time), I'm going to get an FPGA and explore an idea I had for a massively-parallel processor design.

</comment><comment><USER16> I'm interested in the software side of hardware :) (firmware)

<comment><USER17> I have a great firmware idea I'd like to see implemented.

We bought a digital photo frame last week. Normally it sits horizontally. Horizontal photos fill the frame, but vertical photos are squeezed to fit. It detects when you turn it on its side, so that vertical photos fill the frame and horizontal photos are squeezed to fit.

Squeezed photos are too tiny, so I added horizontal-only and vertical-only Media RSS feeds to ourdoings.com, the world's best photo-sharing site. When we change the orientation of the frame we change the RSS feed.

This works great for my wife and me, but it takes some button pressing to change RSS feeds. Too much button pressing for non-technical people, I think.

If you hacked the firmware so that it switched back and forth automatically according to the orientation sensor, that would be really cool. People could set up a frame, send it to relatives as a gift, and the relatives could just plug it in and watch it go.

<http://ourdoings.com/2008-03-01>

<comment><USER16> I had a quick look at the firmware (file "NK.bin" in the firmware .zip file I found on Samsung's website).

From "strings NK.bin|less", I learned that your frame was designed around an RMI (formerly AMD) Alchemy DB1200 reference board, running Windows CE 5.0 on an Au1200 CPU (MIPS32 architecture). More info about this stuff here: <http://www.razamicroelectronics.com/products_alchemy/>

IIRC, the Windows CE development kit contains tools to read filesystem dumps such as this one.

edit: there's some open source stuff in it but it looks legit (libFLAC, which is BSD-licensed and dual-license GPL stuff).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> I intend to do one someday. I have a design for a dishwasher and an interesting take on electric motors.

Aren't hackers just frustrated inventors anyway?

<comment><USER15> heh, some less frustrated than others

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> I've got some ideas around the eInk type displays. Every now and then I send an email to the eInk guys trying to get some bulk rate pricing on their displays - 3 months now and no response. I've got no idea if my ideas for the displays are marketable as I don't know the display costs. These types of problems usher me toward software time and time again...

</comment><comment><USER20> >Any of you out there with passion in hardware? Perhaps a startup around hardware?

Yes.

>I think we have many software/web startups and not enough startups in hardware.

I think we have the right number. ;)

</comment><comment><USER21> Yes. I have some ideas for web facing hardware...</comment>


Internet Archive releases classic 70s & 80s Atari games - <AUTHOR> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25527786/#

<comment><AUTHOR> Direct link to all 989:

[https://archive.org/search.php?query=%28collection%3Aconsole...](https://archive.org/search.php?query=%28collection%3Aconsolelivingroom%20OR%20mediatype%3Aconsolelivingroom%29%20AND%20-mediatype%3Acollection&sort=-week)

</comment><comment><USER2> a more organized way to navigate the collection: [https://archive.org/details/consolelivingroom](https://archive.org/details/consolelivingroom)</comment>


Twitter 'gave Saudi Arabia information about journalist who ended up dead' - <AUTHOR> https://metro.co.uk/2018/11/09/twitter-gave-saudi-arabia-information-about-journalist-who-ended-up-dead-8123873/ <comment><USER2> Twitter has fundamentally screwed up by allowing far too many employees direct access to customer data.

They will never be able to stop these leaks. (But neither will FB)

</comment><comment><USER3> Not a surprise. Just like China govt has been trying to recruit Twitter employees.

</comment><comment><USER4> "They got his information from the Twitter office in Dubai."

Ouch.</comment>


Show HN: An Almost Ideal React Image Component - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/stereobooster/react-ideal-image/blob/master/introduction.md <comment><USER2> It would be cool to optionally integrate SVG placeholders, a-la: [https://medium.com/@jmperezperez/using-svg-as- placeholders-m...](https://medium.com/@jmperezperez/using-svg-as-placeholders- more-image-loading-techniques-bed1b810ab2c)

(previously discussed: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15696596](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15696596))

<comment><AUTHOR> It supports SVG placeholders. SVGs need to be converted to data URIs, like `data:image/svg+xml,%3csvg xmlns='...`, and it works the same as LQIP. You can use [https://github.com/stereobooster/sqip.macro](https://github.com/stereobooster/sqip.macro) to generate those

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> This is a great start. Some lightweight features that would make this even more ideal (for me) would be:

\- retina/3x support \- support for styled components extend feature (if can be made a lightweight implementation) \- maybe default max width of 100% on mobile? \- optional ability to overlay an empty full size block so the image cant easily be right clicked and saved

<comment><AUTHOR> It supports retina/3x. Provide big enough image and it will use it. It takes into account `devicePixelRatio`

> maybe default max width of 100% on mobile?

It is.

> optional ability to overlay an empty full size block so the image cant > easily be right clicked and saved

Not sure what you mean, but as soon as image loaded it turns into good old image, so you can do right click

<comment><USER4> >> optional ability to overlay an empty full size block so the image cant easily be right clicked and saved

> Not sure what you mean, but as soon as image loaded it turns into good old > image, so you can do right click

I believe he wants the opposite of that, putting a div over the image so it cannot be right clicked and saved.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> This is amazing, but I feel like there is something fundamentally lacking from <img> if you have to do all this bullshit _just to get an image to display_.

Why can't the image and DOM spec be upgraded to include lazy loading and touch to download? I can't think of a use case where you wouldn't want this.

<comment><USER6> That's kind of the browser's responsibility, really. The image element already covers what is required to instruct the user agent that there a) is an image resource and b) what its location is. It's then up to the browser to do the right thing with that data. It's nice that people are finding ways to preempt that in case the browser they're in is dumb as dirt, but it's really not the role of the spec to tell user agents how to deal with loads of images. If I'm browsing my gigabit intranet image repositories on any of our workstations, I don't want my user agent to be "intelligent" and just load everything, because it can. If I'm on LTE mobile, I want my browser to be a little smarter about swapping in/out image content. If I'm on 3G, I don't want the browser to load any images at all unless I tell it to. But those are my wants, those are not things the spec should "ordain" user agents must (in the spec definition of must) do.

React components like these are nice, but the real question is why doesn't your _browser_ already do this. Not "why doesn't the spec say what needs to happen", but why haven't Microsoft, Google, Mozilla, Opera, etc. implemented network-and-content-traversal-appropriate image handling? (one answer might be "because apparently users don't actually ask for it enough", but I honestly don't know).

<comment><USER7> Because there's no way to standardize the behavior across user agents to the extent necessary that developers could actually rely on it producing a consistent experience across a large user-base.

<comment><USER6> Conversely, there is also no way to standardize which solution to use to the extent necessary that developers could actually rely on it producing a consistent experience across a large user-base.

You don't need standard behaviour, you just need _good_ behaviour. And if every browser does that differently, but it's appropriate to the network speed and processing capabilities, then as a dev the issue of "making sure images load appropriately" becomes as irrelevant as "making sure your webfont actually loads" has become in the modern browser landscape.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I've previously experimented with image loading components for fun. Similarly, I implemented the material design image loading spec for the web a few years ago.

This may come off a bit negative, but I disagree that it provides a better UX. I don't know if I've grown jaded or cynical, or if we just have drastically different preferences. I think embedding a thumbnail with a link to the full- sized image is better; it's certainly simpler. In general, I don't think the tradeoffs are worthwhile.

Some thoughts:

* There is no mention of module size. That can have a big effect on your initial pageload. Of course, this depends a lot on the context in which you are using said module. It might still be sensible for certain kinds of galleries, perhaps less so for an application for which images are of secondary concern.

* The discussion on performance is too focused on mobile and having very few images on the screen at the same time. What about desktop? What if you plan on having more than two images on-screen at the same time? Doing a comparison with traditional img tags on a grid-view gallery with 100 images would be much more interesting.

* I think it would be genuinely interesting to see what the real-world experience would be if you took a popular website and dropped this in. I do not believe that it would often be an improvement. The two sites that come to mind are 4chan and Reddit.

<comment><AUTHOR> Module size is ~7Kb. A detailed comparison is here [https://github.com/stereobooster/react-ideal- image/blob/mast...](https://github.com/stereobooster/react-ideal- image/blob/master/other/idealimage-vs-img.md)

> The discussion on performance is too focused on mobile

Because mobile users have a slower internet connection and worse CPUs.

What kind of performance are you talking about? If load performance, then this component uses well-established techniques (not invented by me), like lazy- loading (known since jQuery times), srcset (web standard), LQIP (used by Facebook, Medium), width, height (required for all blocks in AMP).

If you are talking about JS performance like frame rate or paint or "junk" on the scroll - I didn't measure it but didn't say it was the first target either.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Wow this is great.

Right now I'm using a homemade <ImgWithPlaceholder src={src} /> that displays a generic gray PNG on 404 or src null.

I'll definitely try your lib as a replacement. I'm excited about the out-of- the-box lazy loading and the LQIP (never heard before.)

</comment><comment><USER10> Well this is very cool. On my MVP projects I'm happy to get any of those things to happen.

I would LOVE an angular service that did this that I can re-use. If only I had the time to fork this and make it work... May need to explore this over the weekend.

Thanks for putting this together!

</comment><comment><USER11> Seems very interesting. I'll give it a shot and try integrating it @ SaaSHub.com. Thanks for sharing and implementing it.

</comment><comment><USER12> Why do I love stuff like this sooo much? (I really do)

Consider the yak shaved. :)

<comment><AUTHOR> Oh yes. More than one

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> You know what's an almost ideal image component? <img>. Sure, browsers could be a little cleverer about prioritising image loading, and I wish everyone would prefer to slim their images down somewhat, but compared with all other attempts I have encountered (with no exceptions), <img> is almost ideal.

I unconditionally _hate_ all scroll-based lazy loading of images. Any other forms of lazy loading of images such as you outline in this post I will also hate, p≥0.96. And attempts to be clever like detecting high latency and working otherwise in such situations normally mess up what I want to happen.

I've written about these things before and I'll doubtless write about it again; [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16518010](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16518010) is the last time I wrote about it on HN and some discussion arose. (The previous time was on the SVG image placeholders article linked elsewhere in these comments.)

<comment><USER14> Most of this comment is just you being dismissive about an idea without any real reason presented for being dismissive. The only useful bit here is actually in your linked comment which most people will probably not see and that is that lazy loaded images tend to fail a lot on poor internet connections. I would argue that even in that case, lazy loading images arent necessarily bad depending on the situation: imagine a site like imgur, where you will likely browse to another page without ever loading all of the images. In that case, the browser would still have loaded the image if it were an img tag and this way you get to the next page faster. Sometimes the browser will cancel the img download, but its not reliable. If the js were coded to handle errors on loading the image, that would probably be a better situation overall.

<comment><USER13> It's much worse than just the potential for failure, as I indicate in other places I've written about it. If I ever see evidence that scroll-based lazy loading has occurred, _it has failed in its mission_ : it didn't load the image in time. And in practice, this happens a lot of the time, especially in higher latency situations. You can't sufficiently-well predict what the user is going to do and so only load it just in time. It doesn't work.

I am inspired by your grumbling to write a blog post entitled "Scroll-based lazy loading of images is _always_ bad". I won't publish it for a while so I can treat the subject methodically (and I'm busy for the rest of today), but it will come.

Thanks for the imgur comparison; the wording I've used does fall down there; in my mind I had distinguished scroll-based lazy loading and scroll-based lazy loading of _images_. When talking about scroll-based lazy loading of images, I meant where you have content that _contains_ images, rather than situations where the images _are_ the content. (That is, I'm talking about lazy loading just the <img>, not lazy loading content in general.) There are definitely applications for which loading everything up-front is impossible (e.g. imgur infinite scrolling on mobile) or impractical (e.g. showing all the 10,000 messages in a mailbox in an email client that deliberately eschews pagination, like FastMail); in such situations, lazy loading is necessary and while it will often be annoying and imperfect there is and can be no better solution.

Where images are embedded in the content, however, I think that my position is still reasonable; there is an alternative: just load eagerly rather than lazily. Now articles and blog posts are the primary application I have in mind, and I can't think of any other applications where my position would not hold—given the caveats of interpretation specified in the previous paragraph—but I'm willing to hear other suggestions.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> I hate lazy loading. - bit offtopic: Are there any good browser extensions that stop this behaviour?

<comment><AUTHOR> Can you explain why?

<comment><USER16> You have to wait for react to load and initialize on the client before an image can load.

<comment><USER17> images and everything else bc client-side rendering... not sure how this is an argument for not lazy-loading images though

<comment><USER18> As an end user it feels slow. If I hold my space bar on a website created in 1995, I can scan the entire page contents.

<comment><AUTHOR> What you are talking about is more like graceful degradation. If server side rendering is used you will be able to see content ASAP, but not able to scroll, because interaction is blocked by JS. But if you will visit page with JS disabled you will get what you want, because component generates img in noscript tag and you will be able press space to scan the page

<comment><USER18> Actually pages that use a component like the one in this submission typically show a blurry "beer goggle" version of the image, waiting for JS to replace them with a hi-res version. So with no JS you get a page of beer goggle images (BBC does this for instance).

<comment><AUTHOR> But not this component. This component will load images without JS. Test it yourself [https://stereobooster.github.io/react-ideal-image- experiment...](https://stereobooster.github.io/react-ideal-image-experiments/)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> It would be helpful if the repo stated why this was ideal - and as opposed to what?

<comment><USER20> If you click through it actually tells you all the things it provides which you wouldn't get with a vanilla img tag.

<comment><USER19> Ah, didn't realize it wasn't a top-level readme. For the lazy:

> I need React component to asynchronously load images, which will adapt based > on network, which will allow a user to control, which image to load.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> I know this'll get downvoted, but this looks like an awful lot of work for... displaying images in a browser. As other HNers have said, it feels like the browser should be doing this work rather than having to create round about, convoluted JS solutions to deliver simple functionality.

Plus, I don't get what's exciting about this. But I'm also not a react guy - and this does nothing to make me consider picking it up. Which, is counter to all the cool JS libraries i've pulled into projects over the years, which naturally induced a desire to learn more JS.

I guess if you're hyper focused on react or frontend js in general, this sort of stuff might be more appealing and relevant. but dear god I've got way more important/interesting things to do than spend a day getting images to render in the browser. Nor does this do anything to lower the barriers of entry for people with an idea and a desire to build something. Sometimes I wonder if that's a design intent.

anyway, sorry for the rant. Great job identifying/solving problems, but i don't get the appeal.

<comment><USER22> I don't get why a comment like this is downvoted. The commenter is simply saying that he doesn't understand the hype. This site is getting nearly unbearable with the groupthink, particularly around specific tech or frameworks.

/meta

On this particular issue, I will go further than my parent and say this does not represent a significant step forward in the scheme of things. The problem being solved here is largely akin to a problem I had to solve 15+ years ago with Vanilla JS. It is positively nuts that we are celebrating a "fix" for it all of these years later, and that we are investing so much time on what should be routine by now.

Anyone who is genuinely excited about this should sincerely be asking themselves if it's a good thing that a lengthy post/fairly involved component for sanely displaying images in a browser is the state-of-the-art for Webdev in 2018.

Yes, I get it: browsers don't do x or y. So, yeah, let's add more libs, more frameworks, more shims, more specs...more, more, more. It's almost self-parody by now. Look at the average Webapp of any semi-significant complexity. It is such a hodge-podge of code, languages, technologies, build steps, etc. that it's a wonder any of it works.

I think it's time we all took a step back and ask, "what are we doing? Is this the right model? Is there a better way?"

<comment><USER23> ( I didn't downvote the parent )

> The problem being solved here is largely akin to a problem I had to solve > 15+ years ago with Vanilla JS.

Of course these problems (multiple!) can be fixed with vanilla js. They all have been, separately, each in their own libraries and stackoverflow posts and custom vanilla code on every project in the past couple decades. The linked page does an excellent job of pointing out the libraries and SO posts it's utilizing to resolve these issues.

The purpose of the linked component is to pull in all these vanilla js fixes and tweaks at once, in a way they'll all work together. A drop-in component to utilize years worth of tweaks and fixes, so you don't have to worry about this crap anymore. Doesn't that kind of cover your complaint? We shouldn't have to deal with it anymore. Drop this in, and worry about something more interesting.

> I think it's time we all took a step back and ask, "what are we doing? Is > this the right model? Is there a better way?"

I picked React long before most of my colleagues did, and I continue to feel it's one of the most useful libraries in quite some time for browser-based javascript development. Mostly because it allows for something like this very library - drop-in and move on to something better.

I was also a huge fan of jquery - not because I couldn't do what jquery was doing for me, but because I was tired of doing it repeatedly for different browsers and for each and every project. Same goes with prototype.js when it first came out, though I hated how it modified the underlying objects.

If I'm understanding your post correctly, I feel like these are all attempts to resolve the issues you're speaking toward. To allow us to stop dealing with cross-browser, cross-device, 2-cans and a string connection issues that, ideally, our browsers should be handling for us.

At least we don't have to rely on flash to replace missing browser functionality anymore (I say that as someone who absolutely loved ActionScript3).

<comment><USER22> > _The purpose of the linked component is to pull in all these vanilla js > fixes and tweaks at once, in a way they 'll all work together._

Is it acceptable that this is the state of the art? That, 15-20+ years on, we are fixing the same problem and, further, that we are doing so by rolling a bunch of cruft into yet another framework? Is this really what we are shooting for?

> _A drop-in component to..._

> _Drop this in, and worry about something more interesting_

Drop it in after learning and adopting a fairly heavyweight framework that forces you to code to a completely different paradigm. Do we really think this is an acceptable solution for simply displaying images on a Web page? I think that's really telling WRT how far off the map we've wandered.

> _Doesn 't that kind of cover your complaint?_

> _I feel like these are all attempts to resolve the issues you 're speaking > toward._

I think React and others are really symptoms of the problem, which is an impedance mismatch between the static document model that underpins the platform on which we are now trying to build fully dynamic applications.

Rather than continuing to paper over browser deficiencies, there needs to be some collaboration between the webdev and browser communities to define more consistent behavior for common scenarios and a standard component/event based model of the type that has proven suitable for GUI-based applications. The Web standards of HTML, DOM, CSS, etc. should not be first-order constructs in this new model. That is, devs should not work in them directly and, to the extent that these standards are useful due to their currently-broad browser support, they should be generated by tooling. We should be laying out our UIs on canvases in our IDEs with flexible grid layouts, and hanging event handlers off of various events a la Swing.

We need to break the current DOM/old Web model that tells us React and others are good simply because they make the impedance mismatch slightly less painful and paper over some browser deficiencies.

<comment><USER23> (I didn't downvote your posts either)

I went on a weird tangent with my reply to this comment and just I'm just going to replace it with this. I generally agree with what you're saying as a means forward, but I also think React is a fantastic tool in the meantime.

What we have is, in fact, the state of the art for better or worse. We will get beyond this, but it clearly takes time.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


File metadata in last year's DNC leak suggest it wasn't a remote hack - <AUTHOR> https://theforensicator.wordpress.com/guccifer-2-ngp-van-metadata-analysis/ <comment><USER2> Interesting how much comment hype was on these boards when everyone felt safe to jump on the Red Scare Bandwagon, but now that the story falls apart those same commenters are crickets ... I would have expected better from Hacker News.

But a solid thanks to the Forensicator for doing the math that all you "Hackers" skirted</comment>


IPad screenshots make this thing seem less like a giant iPhone - <AUTHOR> http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/27/new-screenshots-of-ipad-apps-start-to-make-this-thing-seem-less/ <comment><USER2> Brushes is going to be a big deal among people who can draw. The iPhone version is incredible, and the larger screen will make it more so.

<comment><USER3> kind of like a cintiq, only without pressure sensitivity

<comment><USER4> When the iPad was first announced it seemed like it could be a great digital sketchbook... until I found out it lacked pressure sensitivity. I know a lot of people have shown off the drawing abilities of the iPhone/iPod Touch but as long as it lacks this Apple is pretty much snubbing artists.

<comment><USER5> This could be solved with a wireless pressure sensitive stylus with a capacitive tip. I think such a product would make digital artwork a killer app for the iPad.

<comment><USER6> This is pretty smart. I was thinking about cannibalizing an old Wacom and making a case for the iPad to sit in for drawing - your solution sounds more elegant.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Not being dreadfully slow will also make it unlike an iphone.

<comment><USER8> I can attest to this. It seems that the new OS updates are really rather demanding, and my meagre 2G iPhone lags and stutters constantly.

I had to disable shake-to-shuffle, because the poor little thing would lag for 5 or 10 seconds, and seemed to condense accelerometer input during that time, making it think it had been shaken when it had actually just been sitting in my pocket.

I'm switching to Android next month hopefully, but that has little to do with hardware quality.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Most people that have handled an iPad dismiss that it's just a larger iPod Touch - the old axiom a picture is worth a thousand words certainly applies here.

For education / gaming / medicine / industrial / etc etc the apps we see for this format are going to be incredible.

<comment><USER10> > For education / gaming / medicine / industrial / etc etc the apps we see for > this format are going to be incredible.

I wonder how long Apple will be able to sustain the advantage though. In a year or so when Android tablets are available, I'd predict that any new medicine or industry projects would be more inclined to use an open-source tablet.

If I were building, say, an e-ticket redemption system for events, and I decided to use off-the-shelf hardware, I would much prefer to build it on Android than iPhone or iPad simply because I would have more control of the devices and not be stuck with a single hardware supplier.

<comment><USER11> _"I'd predict that any new medicine or industry projects would be more inclined to use an open-source tablet."_

Really? What % of those industries have done that with operating systems and other past decisions?

<comment><USER12> what % of those industries have used Macs in the past? There's a reason for that.

The Android tablets have advantages, that are only indirectly caused by open source. Having a lot more control over the software, hardware and not to be beholden to a single supplier is invaluable in industrial use.

<comment><USER13> And the API is Java, not some strange language decision makers have never heard of. Big selling point for large corporations and government agencies.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> "People thought Apple will revolutionize tablets, but they got an iPad. But to make a revolutionary tablet Apple just needed to increase the size of the iPhone." I don't remember where I read it but that line is awesome.

<comment><USER15> Increasing screen real-estate has a non-linear effect on lots of UIs.

<comment><USER16> Example?

<comment><USER17> I am not sure, and nobody can be, but isn't the web an example? When the most common resolution was 800x600 the graphical interface patterns were really bleh.

<comment><USER18> IMO Web pages wider than 800px generally use the extra space for junk or whitespace.

<comment><USER17> That's true and probably the reason why interfaces improved so much. Whitespaces are a design element and what you call junk is somebody business need.

The fact that the blank canvas got bigger on the web allowed to much better interface patterns, or maybe it was just a question of maturity.

But I guess the most interesting discussion is not the visual part but the utilization scenarios of the Ipad. I'm not sold on it as a mobile device, but how many people use a laptop as a mobile device? Mobile phones are the first truly mobile devices. I'm just starting to notice Iphone owners on the middle of a crowd trying to text somebody, you have to hold it closer to the horizontal plane to have better accuracy making it less natural.

I'm not sold on the Ipad as a mobile device, in the mobile phones sense, but I also don't think its success depends on it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> It's still crippleware. A lot of people have serious problems with the concept of "single-channel only" software.

<comment><USER12> This is something I also don't understand. Many people were opposed to introducing DRM, TC etc into Windows and PCs by Microsoft, Intel & co. But when Apple comes and takes the trusted computing much further than the original TC alliance dared to go (they didn't even think about not allowing running unsigned executables or being the only entity with root certificate), it makes eveything allright? Makes me wonder what happened to thought process of techies during last years.

<comment><USER20> On the contrary: I've heard nothing but criticism from "techies" about Apple's trusted computing model, but it doesn't matter: the majority of the people that pay for Apple products don't care because it Just Works(tm) for them.

<comment><USER21> I don't get this idea of "just works". My blackberry died last week, and I decided to try out an iPhone as a replacement.

Just works? As in I can get my email to sync more often than 4 times an hour without jailbreaking it?

Just works? As in I can install the grooveshark iPhone app without jailbreaking it?

Just works? As in I can listen to pandora and browse the internet without jailbreaking it?

Just works? As in I can stop the screen from rotation while I'm trying to use the thing in bed without jailbreaking it?

Just works? As in I can use my google voice app without having to resort to the workaround the google coded up?

Just works? As in I can use any song or sound stored on the filesystem as a ringtone, alarm, or alert?

The iPhone might "just work" if you're looking for something that is slightly worse than a netbook for updating your twitter status, but as far as seeing the iPad be anything more than paying $600 for the privilege of then paying to run apps from the iTunes store, well, I don't see it.

Maybe this will change when I get my hands around an iPad, but I very highly doubt it.

Although perhaps I'm just a tad bitter about how absolutely dreadfully horrible the iPhone is at just about everything I've tried to do on it. (Okay, that's a lie, my niece really enjoyed playing with the guitar chord app I downloaded)

<comment><USER22> Just works as in does everything it does without fuss, not just works as in does everything full stop.

<comment><USER21> I'm not asking the phone to do _everything_. My gripe is that it _can_ do all of these things, but they have been artificially restricted.

<comment><USER23> You're an edge case. Most users don't know or care that these problems are there.

Among other things, if you have an Exchange server or an IMAP server that supports IDLE, you get push e-mail automatically, which for me solves that problem in its entirety.

Things like background apps can be done, but the practicality of allowing background apps without draining the battery far too fast is an issue that (to date) they haven't solved effectively. Perhaps in the next generation of apps.

Finally, the rotation - I agree with you wholeheartedly. Rotation inhibitor is the biggest reason why I jailbreak. I hope this will be solved in a future OS release, but who knows.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> I also think that given the size we'll start see many more apps supporting more than 3 fingers at the same time</comment>


The 10 Best Chrome Extensions for Freelancers - <AUTHOR> https://www.sitepoint.com/the-10-best-chrome-extensions-for-freelancers/?utm_content=buffer872ee&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer <comment><USER2> Here's another interesting link for Chrome Extensions: [https://www.fundera.com/blog/chrome- extensions](https://www.fundera.com/blog/chrome-extensions)</comment>


Study Used Sensors to Show Men and Women Are Treated Different at Work (2017) - <AUTHOR> https://hbr.org/2017/10/a-study-used-sensors-to-show-that-men-and-women-are-treated-differently-at-work <comment><USER2> "We couldn't see the types of projects they were working on..."

In other words, they didn't have access to the most crucial factors, and were left wondering why the trivia they were collecting had no explanatory power.</comment>


Why We Should Stop Grading Students on a Curve - <AUTHOR> http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/11/opinion/sunday/why-we-should-stop-grading-students-on-a-curve.html?smid=tw-nytopinion&smtyp=cur <comment><USER2> I'm liking the idea of take-home and cooperative tests more and more as I progress through teaching experiences. I believe the tests should be an instructional experience, too. From personal experience, I know that well- constructed test questions helped me understand a subject more than "read the entire chapter" ever did.</comment>


Ask HN: Co-founder split, company not yet incorporated - <AUTHOR>

Me and 3 others were working on a hardware/software idea in the music domain. One of the co-founders decided to split because of the following reasons :
1. Did not feel that equity should be split equally. 2. His personal vision did not align with what was good for the company(he said this himself). 3. He had issues with me "calling shots". We've known each other for more than a decade. This has nothing to do with the decisions that were taken, but more of a first among equals conundrum.
We were in the middle of incorporating a Pvt Ltd. So I am not legally protected.
The other 2 co-founders have decided to move on. They are finding this financially taxing and want to pursue higher studies. Everyone except me is fresh out of college, I have one years experience (at a startup where we crowdfunded open source hardware).
My Contrib Software (API, smartwatch app, etc.) as well as building the website (static). Inputs on the hardware design from my end, but no commits to the repo. Outreach :Setting up meetings with investors, bringing technical mentors onboard
I have spent roughly 50% of total expense.
The co-founder who has decided to split wants to work on the idea by himself and wants the other 3 of us out. He has said he is willing to compensate us for our expenses, and pay some remuneration for the effort put in.
1. How do I get a clean break from this ? This is more in an emotional context than anything else. I've documented and shared quite a few ideas about this particular project, and I feel quite close to it.
2. How should I calculate my remuneration after expenses ? Should this be calculated based on my salary at previous employer or something similar ? 3. Assuming I continue to work on this idea alone or with some of the other co-founders, what are the legal hassles involved ? Who gets to own what ? Is it even worth the effort, considering the fact that investors are wary about such a history. <comment><USER2> Firstly you should talk to a lawyer, and avoid getting legal advice online.

A good lawyer (and not all lawyers are good) will know the right questions to ask you. A good lawyer might also suggest a strategy that's in your best interests. Although beware of lawyers who look to sue right away and rack up hours. Make sure the lawyers also knows something about tech.

Although there is one thing lawyers have told me time and time again: You can not copyright an idea. Also I'll add that while a good idea is essential to a startup, it's all about execution, execution and execution.

Last thoughts: Write down every lesson from this and move on. I would say one key lesson is that before any money is spent in a business it must be incorporated (doesn't matter if it's a startup or not).

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks !I'll definitely talk to a lawyer. Like the idea of writing it down too. Hopefully once things settle down.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> 1\. Sign an agreement and designate one party the right to work on the idea while others aren't allowed to anymore.

2\. Not at all, you shouldn't treat this as an experience working for an employer. You took the risk and the risk is not getting paid for what you're worth.

3\. If the company ever gets big, you can very well bet that ghosts will come out of the shadows and turn your world into a living nightmare. Just look at every successful company that didn't end things on a clean note (Snapchat, Facebook).

My suggestion is to move on and accept your losses. Everyone is too emotionally invested and in the end, only one party should have the right to continue working on the idea to avoid any confrontations. Anyone who doesn't have the right on the idea anymore can be fairly compensated but agree to a non-compete. So what amount of compensation is fair you might say? The easiest way is to value the company at a certain amount and then multiply that by your equity percentage. And good luck! I've seen my fair share of co-founder disputes and problems. They're nasty to deal with but the benefit to experiencing it is learning to choose your co-founders more wisely in the future. Simply being friends who just happen to be in the right place at the right time doesn't cut it in the long run.

<comment><AUTHOR> The co founder who split is of the opinion that everyone can continue to work on the idea regardless. But I think that's mostly to avoid him having to pay for our efforts/pay us to leave. I had doubts about this, but now I am sure. It's simply not an option to have 2 companies working on the same thing. Thanks ! Totally agree about the friends thing. I am a little wiser now.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> First the business : If you really believe in what you are doing, you won't let anything stop you. Just ignore it.

Now the emotions : The way you get a clean break from this emotionally is really on you to develop an emotional strategy to deal with that.

One way to approach this is to revise what you make this circumstance mean. The facts are one thing, they are the __what happened__, and what you make them mean, in other words ( literally so ) your narrative about them, are another thing.

Write down the what happened ( minus your interpretation and attribution of blame and feelings and judgements about it and people ).

And then write down separately your interpretation of what happened ( here is where you unedited express all the ways you feel about this, all the blame you attribute to others, all the judgements you have, in short, what you make what happened mean ).

So now in front of you you have your current narrative. If this narrative displeases you, it behooves you to revise it. Remember, you can choose what you make it mean. You constructed this interpretation in the first place, and if the interpretation doesn't work for you, write yourself a new one. A tip when writing your new narrative is : take responsibility for as much as possible, and blame others as little as possible, as every time you blame someone else you are giving away your feeling of power and agency to them ( by your own choice, mind ) and calling toward yourself a little more frustration that you would otherwise.

Finally, an inspiring mask of a possible destination : Perhaps, whatever path you choose, you can post your journey or results here so others may benefit. The benefit to yourself in getting out of this cleanly is one element, and this story of what you did to achieve that can inspire others as well.

<comment><AUTHOR> I thought of it, but ignoring it is not an option. Assuming both companies are unequally successful, spiteful actions are very likely in the future. I love your idea about the narrative. Facts vs what-i-feel-about-it should do wonders for me right now. A blog post is definitely coming once the dust settles down on this one. Thanks !</comment></comment>