Show HN: rtsp-bench – RTSP to WebRTC Server for large scale broadcast benchmarks - Sean-Der https://github.com/pion/rtsp-bench <comment> Sean-Der I wrote this RTSP -> WebRTC server that generates CPU Usage reports as well. You can use it from your browser, or a CLI WebRTC Client.

I was really excited to see how it well it scales also! I was able to hit 10k viewers on a m4.2xlarge while using ~30% CPU.

If you aren't familiar with Pion it is Pure Go implementation of WebRTC. Instead of being a server that you configure you get the PeerConnection API! It is really flexible, and lets you do a bunch of interesting things. The best showcase of all it has to offer is [https://github.com/pion/awesome- pion](https://github.com/pion/awesome-pion)</comment>


PrintToPeer networks your 3D printer so you can build your own bot farm - <AUTHOR> http://techcrunch.com/2014/05/09/printtopeer-networks-your-3d-printer-so-you-can-build-your-own-bot-farm/

<comment><USER2> Better idea for bigger shops (or printer owners who have someone always at home): allow "remote usage" of the printers.

Assume I have either an object constructed out of lots of parts or I want a relatively cheap object produced in mass. Instead of me having to wait ages until the whole job is finished, I can distribute individual parts/jobs to printers in my neighborhood, pay the owner for the material and power usage, and have my objects.

Printing As A Distributed Service.

</comment><comment><USER3> Never mind a bot farm, this is incredibly useful to anyone who has just one 3d printer.

Normally I have to sit with my laptop plugged into my printer by USB for the full duration of a print, which can be hours long. This lets you print from wherever you want in the house, and cuts out the crappy slicing and print hosting software you currently have to use.

If you can really print in 3 clicks like they say they can, I'll be sold.

<comment><USER4> I've seen it in action and it basically works as described. We have a makerbot sitting in the middle of our office and it's awesome.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> Direct link: [http://www.printtopeer.com](http://www.printtopeer.com)

</comment><comment><USER6> Free, open source alternative: [http://octoprint.org/](http://octoprint.org/)

Has most of the same features, and is working on slicing as well

<comment><AUTHOR> We use Octoprint as well, but it didn't meet our needs. We needed makerbot support and connecting multiple printers to one Pi. Cloud slicing was an obvious answer to us, and allowed us to provide a common API for these printers.

I can send you a pre-release demo if you are interested.

<comment><USER6> No thanks, I prefer open source for my open source printer, and esp. dislike the idea of relying on the cloud to make the software work.</comment></comment></comment>


Baltimore Is Getting Its First Startup Incubator - <AUTHOR> http://bmoremedia.com/features/startupcity030811.aspx

<comment><USER2> I know there are a lot of incubators starting up now, but there aren't so many on the east coast. I wrote in more detail about the vision of this project and why we're doing it in this Google Doc, if anyone is interested in starting something in their own city:

[https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AdPdQktVsPezZGp0bW1jNF8xN...](https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AdPdQktVsPezZGp0bW1jNF8xNGdxcHBqamRm&authkey=CMCIsp8K&hl=en)

<comment><USER3> Baltimore's a good target. You generally would expect something like this to happen in the (nearby) DC area, but between Fort Meade and other Maryland-area institutions, there is some AMAZING talent in or around Baltimore, and it's much more pleasant getting into and out of.

Mike, if you need any help with anything technical, please feel free to let me know -- contact info is in my profile.

<comment><USER2> thank you, I definitely will reach out. The main thing we're gonna need is people to help advise these companies (not too time-consuming, just answer some questions here and there). I agree with your assessment. There are a lot of under-the-radar companies and people hanging out in this area.

<comment><USER4> Could you drop me a line, contact information in my profile? I'm in need of advice and support in some areas, may be able to offer it in others.

<comment><USER2> I don't see contact info in your profile, but email me and we'll talk!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> This is great news! As a Baltimorean I am extremely excited to see something this ambitious come to the East Coast, and better yet my neck of the woods.

I will most definitely be making an effort to participate in this. Great job, Mike.

<comment><USER6> Right on. I have lived in Baltimore almost my entire life. I'm a PhD candidate at Hopkins now, but if I do a startup when I finish, I'd much rather stay here than move to California.

<comment><USER5> The Wire (while being an incredible show) definitely hurt Baltimore in terms of its reputation. There are some fantastic areas around, and the culture is very inspiring.

<comment><USER7> I think it's the consistent 200-300 homicides per year that hurt Baltimore's reputation.

<comment><USER8> Every major American city has its share of violent, drug- or gang-based crime. That's not to diminish it, but unless you are actively involved in those trades or unfortunate enough to be caught up in it by proximity, it likely will never visit you. It's a shame because there are risks everywhere (suburbanites think nothing of climbing in their cars everyday to hop on the highways where 30,000 people die every year) but we're so bad in general at evaluating them.

Frankly, it doesn't bother me that Baltimore's reputation is somewhat tarnished, because that just makes it all the more appealing to live here and know that there is great art, great music, a vibrant technology and hacking scene, lots of smart young people, and friendly neighbors to enjoy. Now if we could just get more bike lanes and some better frickin' public transit ...

<comment><USER9> Boston, which is almost exactly the same populations as Baltimore, had 72 murders last year.

If New York had the murder rate that Baltimore does that would mean over 3000 people murdered in a year.

Baltimore has a serious violence problem no matter how you try to rationalize it.

<comment><USER2> who's trying to rationalize it? There's not much I can do about it; it's still an awesome place to live. Good luck buying a house in a nice part of Boston or NYC as a working-class or middle-class person. Meanwhile I'm hacking code, running a startup, and I live in a super nice house in a walkable neighborhood that's very different than the one narrow slice you saw in that show.

<comment><USER6> What neighborhood? (Charles Village here.)

<comment><USER2> We haven't locked down the space yet but are hoping for a spot in Fells Point. I actually also live in Charles Village, let's meet up for coffee sometime! (firstname.lastname@example.com)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I grew up in Bethesda, MD and for personal reasons would like to get back there. Some of our early adopters are likely to be DC based lawyers and we were considering setting up shop near DC but we also want a supportive entrepreneurial environment. You may have solved that for us.

Baltimore is a great city for this. Close to DC, access to NYC and Boston, lower cost of living, enjoyable place to live, some great schools near by.

<comment><USER2> this is music to my ears! We actually have a very vibrant innovation/startup community in Baltimore. Check out our Facebook Group to get a quick firehose: [https://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_160612380624897&#...
Also check out http://startupbaltimore.org/, http://www.baltimorehackathon.com/, and the http://baltimore.startupweekend.org/

<comment><USER4> I shall definitely check out the last three links. I'll look at the FB group but I, unfortunately, use FB only for personal stuff and am very disinclined to mix my professional and personal life on FB. Just me, not a critique of you!

<comment><USER2> it's a fair critique and you aren't the first to mention it. But I will say it's vastly accelerated the exchange of ideas and feeling of community in Baltimore so overall it's a net win. There's also a network of twitter accounts to follow if that's more your taste (@startupbmore @ignitebaltimore @bmorehackathon @startupdigestmd @bootstrapmd @innovatebmore etc etc)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I live in Baltimore and I approve this message =)

Now, my CTO can stay as a CTO because he loves Baltimore and doesn't want to move to San Francisco!

</comment><comment><USER11> Wonderful idea. Born and raised in Baltimore/Columbia and this is definitely more of what we need. Great work so far. Do you guys have a website yet?

<comment><USER2> just a splash page for now, designed by Mark Armbruster. The site is <http://thestartupcity.com> (the guy who owns startupcity.com wants a lot of $$$ for it)

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> > Applicants to Startup City, who will be selected based on a YouTube video > they submit to the program's website

A YouTube video alone is not sufficient to make an informed selection from the applicants. An interview in-person, or on the phone at least, is essential. I hope the process was just over-simplified in the article.

<comment><USER4> Y Combinator requires a one minute video for each founder. No cute graphics, no special effects, just one minute of you talking. I did it, and thought it added value to my submission.

I'd be a bit put off by any video requirements that allowed for too much more technical wizardry than that. I present myself well, but I do so far better in person, and I'm not adept with making movies.

I'd be quite happy to come in for an in person interview, even though I'm 1,500 miles away. I want to evaluate _you_ as well. Committing to a particular incubator _is_ a commitment by both parties and I want to be sure I'm comfortable working with you as well.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> This is great. I grew up in Baltimore, but headed to the Bay Area after college because that's where all of the action is in the high-tech space. My mom always tries to convince me that Baltimore is becoming a high-tech hub, and maybe it actually is.

<comment><USER12> The Baltimore region actually _is_ a hub for gaming companies: MicroProse, Firaxis, Big Huge Games, etc. I'm not overly familiar with the video game industry, but Baltimore/Maryland is no slouch. Zynga has an office in Timonium now (suburbs of Baltimore) where they are hiring.

<comment><AUTHOR> Bethesda Software too.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Mike, I have two people on my team and we live in Baltimore. Should we apply as a team or separately? Also, our product is targeting Russian market. Is that a problem? Do you only accept companies that target US to begin with? Thanks

<comment><USER2> you should definitely apply as a team. We would love to back a company targeting Russia! It's a global economy, right? Also there's a large Russian population in Baltimore FWIW

<comment><USER10> Awesome. We will definitely look into this opportunity.

Thanks Mike.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Baltimore is a tech hot bed right now. Between our Universities, culture and under-doggedness we are going to seriously crush it these next couple of years. I missed out on funding to start my mobile company 5 years ago because I didn't want to move out west. Now I'm happy to say its game time without it.

</comment><comment><USER4> Any thought on requiring successful incubator startups to reinvest in the incubator in some way? Or at least a gentleman's agreement to do so?

Speaking for myself, I'm a firm believer in building community and in reinvesting in people and things that have invested in me.

<comment><USER2> So, that's one of the main reasons for doing this, to create that virtuous cycle, but at this stage I don't think we can require it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Omar's-a-comin' ... and he's got 25% equity thanks to the last round.

</comment><comment><USER16> shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiittttttttttttttt!

Looks like Mayor Carcetti really is turning things around.

<comment><USER17> Stringer Bell is definitely going to be applying.

<comment><USER16> Where do you think the money is coming from?! Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiii.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Oooh, there's a John Waters movie hiding somewhere in here...

</comment><comment><USER19> Holy shit. As a local, I can't wait to see more info on this. I don't think I could beat out all those Silicon Valley hotshots that apply to YC, but for something local, I think I can get in.

This being in Baltimore is such a surprise - I'd never thought I'd see the day. I'm giddy.

<comment><USER2> glad to hear it! But this is just one small facet of the tech scene in Baltimore...Please check out my response to kovar for a list of other resources you should check out.

<comment><USER20> What is the difference between this and something like ETC on Boston St? They have The Hive which is a cheap place for startups to go (do they lack funding?).

<comment><USER2> The ETC is great but does not provide funding, and you have to pay rent for the office space (though the leases are on startup-friendly terms, graduated rates, etc). The ETC will actually be providing their services (consulting, introductions, etc) to our portfolio

<comment><USER20> Awesome cool.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Running Colossal Cave Adventure on a PDP-11/34 [video] - <AUTHOR> http://www.nycresistor.com/2014/06/02/get-lamp/

<comment><USER2> The video of that rescued, repaired and running PDP-11/34 just created the coziest feeling inside my mind. There is something magical about those old Digital PDP machines that were so deeply related to the development of UNIX and C. It just makes you want to simulate every little bit of it and somehow make it last forever. It's too precious to be lost in time.

</comment><comment><USER3> That Flickr video widget didn't work the last time, when they salvaged the thing, and it doesn't work now. I do have Flash, but it just displays a black box. Does anyone know a workaround?

</comment><comment><USER4> that's nothing, I saw that running on a ICL2966 at the National Computer Museum the other week.</comment>


The New York Times' most famous tweet is ten years old - <AUTHOR> http://www.niemanlab.org/2017/03/word-up-this-is-the-story-behind-the-new-york-times-most-famous-tweet-which-is-10-years-old-today/ <comment><USER2> It's so weird to think that Twitter used to be insignificant enough that a random software engineer could just tweet to the NY Time's social media account at will, without going through all the hoops of a social media team. Kudos to them for keeping it up, it's a great tweet.

<comment><USER3> Sorta like when the web first got started and domain names weren't in the public imagination yet:

[https://www.wired.com/2005/08/tech/](https://www.wired.com/2005/08/tech/)

<comment><USER4> I remember in the early days of the web an interviewer asked Ted Turner about the web and whether there would ever be a cnn.com. He went off on a rant about the web being I think a fad and that the answer would always be a no.

Two days later in August 1995 CNN Interactive launched at cnn.com. Press wanted to know if Turner had changed his mind. Guy in charge of the site said probably no but Ted doesn't understand the net at all. It was decided this was a slam dunk so we went ahead and launched it without telling him.

Turner never understood the Internet and it came back to bite him big time when after merging with Time-Warner in 1996 he went ahead with the others on the board in 1999 and bought AOL. In the crash that followed he proceeded to lose about three quarters of his net worth.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Link is giving me a massive, jumbled page of mixed characters suggesting something is broken.

If you're seeing what I'm seeing, here is a Google Cache version: [http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:WUGP7Ho...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:WUGP7HoVukwJ:www.niemanlab.org/2017/03/word- up-this-is-the-story-behind-the-new-york-times-most-famous-tweet-which- is-10-years-old-today/+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)

<comment><USER6> Do you have uBlock origin installed?

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> The New York Times has always been good at digital things. They have a decent API and have digitized a lot of historical articles from the 20th century.

<comment><USER8> Speaking of their API, a recently new one is the Archive API (I only noticed it this past year), which makes it much easier to download all of their article metadata. It used to be you had to paginate through their articles API, which was limited in its number of paginated results. Now you can get all of the articles and their metadata for any given year and month, which makes it a great place for practicing data mining and other classification techniques.

[https://developer.nytimes.com/archive_api.json#/README](https://developer.nytimes.com/archive_api.json#/README)

Example result for 2016-11 (around 18mb in size):

[http://stash.compciv.org/2017/nytimes- archive-2016-11.json](http://stash.compciv.org/2017/nytimes- archive-2016-11.json)

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> It's easier to ask forgiveness than it is to get permission.

\- Grace Hopper

</comment><comment><USER10> That is hilarious. The humblebrag one was pretty good, too.

</comment><comment><USER11> CIA's first tweet was great:

"We can neither confirm nor deny that this is our first tweet."

<comment><USER12> "but we are listening..."

<comment><USER13> The CIA are cool now guys stop it!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> If this isn't a perfect example of how your "hacky prototype" will never be replaced with a fully developed solution until absolutely necessary, I don't know what is.

</comment><comment><USER15> Alternatively, twitter is more than ten years old.

<comment><USER16> Yesterday was the 11th anniversary of the first Tweet: [https://twitter.com/jack/status/20](https://twitter.com/jack/status/20)

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> And like so many things from ten years ago... cringe</comment>


My Year With Android - <AUTHOR> http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2009/11/05/my-year-with-android/

<comment><USER2> "...if your life revolves around Google Web applications, the Android OS is probably the best phone on the market."

This is true in my case -- MyTouch (awful name) is the bee's knees. Google Voice and Apps for Domains makes MyTouch an efficient business machine. I have cheap-minimal voice plan and no texting plan (do pay for data of course). Texts and most calls via G-Voice. I get one-click access to email on the go,all my office/cell/home lines forwarded to a single G-voice line, transcribed voicemails (how did I live/work without this?), and full calendar/tasks integration. Win-ish.

Don't love the T coverage, 3G is spotty, and no physical keyboard is a pain for large-thumbed folks like me.

Cons aside, best phone on the market for my Google-integrated needs.

</comment><comment><USER3> "... I manage to hit the "hang up" button while pulling it out; I wish that it were a flip-phone design."

This is the number-one reason I hang onto my 2003-ish dumbphone. Is it possible to make a decent smart flip-phone?

<comment><USER4> Strange. I extract the phone from my pocket by grasping the thin side (which does not have buttons) and have never pressed a button accidentally.

The "red button to hang up locked phone during incoming call" could be considered bad design... but I guess you want to shut the ringtone off quickly if you are in a quiet place. (My phone is set to go to vibrate as soon as I leave my house. So this is not a problem for me... but neither is accidentally hanging up.)

<comment><USER3> I use a lot of tactile clues. Probably that's because I'm clumsy and don't see well, especially if I was asleep prior to the ringing.

I've used an iPhone, and it's frustrating that I can't easily tell which end is up or silence the ringer (not hang up the call) without pulling the thing out of my pocket.</comment></comment></comment>


What is a good time for a startup (any maturity) to do a PR? - <AUTHOR>

<comment><USER2> Seriously? when you actually have something worth using to start with.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes.. till the time your work speaks for you, you need a voice to be heard!</comment></comment>


Entrepreneurial veteran Grant Ryan speaking at TEDx - <AUTHOR> http://tedxchch.com/2010/09/entrepreneurial-veteran-speaking-at-tedxchch/

<comment><AUTHOR> Creator of YikeBike, electric bike. 'big, hairy goal' is for the YikeBike to be the most popular mode of transport in the world.</comment>


Should asking puzzle questions in technical interviews be illegal? - <AUTHOR>

One could argue that such puzzles discriminate against certain groups of people without supporting research showing that such puzzle solving ability is necessary for programming.<p>So should such puzzles be illegal in technical interviews -- at least until the supporting research is done and widely accepted? <comment><USER2> Should asking content questions in technical interviews be illegal?

One could argue that such content questions discriminates against certain groups of people without supporting research showing such memorizing ability is necessary for programming.

So should such questions be illegal in technical interviews --- at least until the supporting research is done and widely accepted?

<comment><AUTHOR> Perhaps one reason why they ask puzzle type questions is because they don't care so much about what content you know. You can learn on the job after all if you are smart.

But that still ignores the issue about whether puzzle solving and programming ability are highly correlated.

<comment><USER3> Probably moreso than most other things you could evaluate, including programming itself. I'd argue that puzzle-solving is more closely related to what you actually do as a developer than writing "reverse a string in-place" exercises in C. After all, what are programming problems besides puzzles?

(Assuming you're working at a firm that actually _develops software_ , instead of handing a template to some code-monkeys and telling them to use off-the- shelf Microsoft or Java widgets and assemble them into something vaguely resemblant. But the latter firms don't really use puzzles anyway. They hire based on degrees and certifications.)

<comment><AUTHOR> The point is this is just a guess. You need scientific experiments to demonstrate this -- otherwise, it's potentially illegal to use puzzles in interviews.

<comment><USER4> A guess seems like a reasonable standard of proof, the experiment is when you hire them for a month to see if they can do the job. If that's illegal then the laws are broken.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Should any questions be illegal? We should be able to hire anyone we want for whatever reasons. The market should then decide whether the questions were right or wrong.

</comment><comment><USER6> From my perspective it is less about the actual answer and more about the process you use to get there.

Now granted I have read a few studies indicating that it is possible to derive puzzles in such a way that to weed out certain demographics. One could argue the same thing based on what college someone went to and when based on the published numbers from that school and logical analysis. Should asking what college you went to and when be illegal?

As it stands right now, "puzzle solving ineptness" is not one of the groups of people protected by the equal opportunity act.

<comment><AUTHOR> But it might be that older people are worse at these sorts of puzzles in which case this would result in age discrimination.

Other groups may be affected as well.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> For hiring in the U.S., discrimination is legal if it's done on the basis of what are called "bona fide occupational qualifications". This is the legal principle that allows, say, police departments to reject people who don't meet physical standards, or modeling agencies to reject people just because they're ugly.

You could make a good case that success on puzzle questions has a decent correlation with success as a programmer--that is, the ability to solve puzzles is probably a BFOQ for programmers, so it's safe from a legal standpoint.

</comment><comment><USER8> Any selection procedure can be said to "discriminate" against certain groups of people. Do people need a certain height and weight to be good soldiers? Many army recruitment systems have minimum requirements. Do you need an Ivy LeagueMBA to be a highly paid consultant at McKinsey?

Questions like these often are about the questioner than anything else. If I were to ask "Should it be illegal for McKinsey to demand an MBA from Harvard before hiring people?" , it probably reveals more about my attitudes than anything else.

     What made you consider such  an idea?  Any negative experiences with puzles in an interview? I am genuinely curious.

<comment><AUTHOR> Although I come from academic background, I have lost all faith in computer science. IMO, people are focusing on all the wrong things. Web 2.0 is a step in the right direction. It's much more fun and creative than academia ever was.

As you might guess, I don't think much of technical interviews, especially the ones with puzzles.

<comment><USER9> I have to say, I'm inspired by pg's whole idea that the ultimate test of what you bring to society is what you can think up and build, and that barriers to your doing just exactly that, have fallen much lower. I'm still freakin' abuzz over that, together with the fact that there will probably soon be YC imitators, and that YC itself will expand, to make that a reality. Currently I'm contemplating 'which job to do, which would stall my career the least' (I do need one for the short term), but in the medium term even, it may be possible to work on exciting, possibility-busting ideas. Being that life is short, I can't get over the possibility that this'll be the new modus operandi.

This would be at the level of what the early internet hippies promised, way back in the beginning :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> It is illegal to administer an IQ test as part of the hiring process. Since IQ is the #1 predictor of future job performance (See The Bell Curve), then I imagine puzzle questions are just about the next best thing.

<comment><USER11> IBM did exactly that when I interviewed with them in 1998. They give you a battery of tests including:

A timed test of where you have to do a lot of boring math problems like long- multiplication and division of large sums. I hate boring math, but figured I didn't want to be an accountant, so I didn't stress out over it.

Another timed test where you're given character sequences, and you have to guess what comes next. That was the one all us hackers in the group of interviewees were bragging about after the test. "Oh yeah? I got through all but the last two!", that sort of thing.

We were told our results were not a condition of employment (though this was during the interview process) and they would be kept in our employee profiles, but we couldn't ever find out how we did.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> What should be illegal is silently judging the "coolness" or "good looks" or "charisma" of a candidate. Because, in the real world, that's usually what gets you the job.

</comment><comment><USER13> The Xobni guys ask a great puzzle if you interview with them. The puzzle makes the whole interview process worthwhile. I hope they are still asking that puzzle ;-)

</comment><comment><USER14> not only is puzzle/quiz/aptitude testing the future of job applications... I'd throw in _conditioning_ (like the Suk doctors in Dune or the current military). Talent will be rewarded much more when money isn't wasted on less efficient, competent, dedicated and honorable people.

</comment><comment><USER15> This would be a good question for 'Regulatory Bureaucrat News'.

Or perhaps 'Vexatious Litigator News'.

But for 'Hacker News', not so much.

</comment><comment><USER16> discrimination should be legal. forcing you to hire someone you don't want to isn't freedom.

<comment><USER17> On discrimination laws:

<http://www.eeoc.gov/facts/qanda.html>

You'll see a number of groups identified at various points. Lists of them usually start with something like "race, color, religion..." These are known as 'suspect classifications' and discrimination is often not possible except where a suspect class is involved.

Suspect classes themselves have been defined by the Supreme Court via 14th amendment rulings, and include specific criteria that determine what level of scrutiny is applied to the law. If a victim is not a member of a suspect class, then it will be very difficult to prove discrimination. (Though it can happen, for example Gay Marriage in MA)

Companies have a great deal of freedom to 'discriminate'(defined in global scope) in hiring practices, though their ability to 'discriminate'(defined in legal scope) is limited for good reason.

(I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice. I also don't think puzzle tests should count as discrimination.)

<comment><USER16> Most people think discrimination is bad. I agree with them. But just because something is bad does not mean that it's correct to make a law against it. The people who discriminate _disagree_ about whether discrimination is a good or bad idea.

Disagreement should not be dealt with by force, it should be dealt with by persuasion, (and with competition). The only exception is when force would happen no matter what we do (ie, they want to assault or defraud someone, then force takes place whether we stop them or not).

When people want to peacefully do things we think are bad, like discriminate, or watch Desperate Housewives, or buy homeopathic medicine, the best thing to do is leave them alone. Do we really want the Government monitoring and judging our peaceful economic choices? The only thing at stake with discrimination is it prevents cooperation between certain people. But so what? I do not have a right to have others work with me; such things should be purely voluntary. And there are still plenty of better, non-discriminating people to work with.</comment></comment></comment>


"eBay blacklisting has forced us on to dole" - <AUTHOR> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/yourbusiness/9650610/eBay-blacklisting-has-forced-us-on-to-dole.html

<comment><USER2> Amazon and Ebay both do this. They will blacklist your account and you have little to no recourse.</comment>


Show HN: A simple, highly commented, rootkit which attacks GCC and Python - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/mrrrgn/simple-rootkit

<comment><USER2> This doesn't attack gcc or python, it's just a trivial kernel module that interposes SYS_read. There's no germline persistence a la trusting trust. e.g. if I compile gcc, compile the Linux kernel, and compile python all on a system with this "rootkit" installed, and put the newly built kernel and toolchains on a new system, that system is clean.

This isn't really anything other than a Hello World kernel module.

<comment><AUTHOR> Hmmm, well, no, it's not a full on "Trusting Trust" attack; though it has a similar outcome insofar as producing dirty binaries from clean source goes.

The module is simple, with the only tricky part being replacing a system call. My goal here was to play around with the idea of modifying source code en route to a compiler/interpreter in a sneaky way. Nothing more sophisticated than that. :]

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Nice!

The name is clearly a nod to the classic "Reflections on Trusting Trust" by Ken Thompson ([http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/ken/trust.html](http://cm.bell- labs.com/who/ken/trust.html)).

I feel the presentation in the video would be clearer if it just cat'd the source files before running/compiling them, to keep the source on-screen.

<comment><AUTHOR> Good advice, I may re-shoot the gif later and do that. Thanks! :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> As a side note, how did you generate that gif?

<comment><AUTHOR> I used licecap, it's extremely awesome. [https://github.com/lepht/licecap](https://github.com/lepht/licecap) :]

</comment></comment><comment> vezzy-fnord This module appears to use a simple brute force method for uncovering the address of the system call table, as opposed to hardcoding from System.map. There's another more elegant solution that could be of interest to readers: [http://www.elliotbradbury.com/linux-syscall-hooking- interrup...](http://www.elliotbradbury.com/linux-syscall-hooking-interrupt- descriptor-table/)

If you're looking for deeper case studies on Linux rootkits, the Suterusu rootkit is an interesting PoC: [http://poppopret.org/2013/01/07/suterusu- rootkit-inline-kern...](http://poppopret.org/2013/01/07/suterusu-rootkit- inline-kernel-function-hooking-on-x86-and-arm/)

On the other hand, if you're looking for a guide on understanding LKMs from the ground up and how they can apply to rootkits, I strongly recommend Joseph Kong's excellent book _Designing BSD Rootkits_. It's FreeBSD-specific and dates to 2007, but it's not still outdated AFAIR: [http://www.nostarch.com/rootkits.htm](http://www.nostarch.com/rootkits.htm)

</comment><comment><USER5> There is a high chance that it will crash your system.

\- Unlocked access to ->comm

\- What if buf is less than 6 bytes or not NULL terminated?

\- Only searching for sys_close() is not enough, it will also find any function pointer to sys_close() and then return a false syscall table.

Anyway, a nice hack. :-)

<comment><USER5> BTW: Thanks for downvoting this.

<comment><AUTHOR> Not sure who downvoted; but I appreciated the suggestions! Someone submitted a patch with the changes and I merged it a few hours ago. Thank you! :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> This is OK for learners. But, it's not even middle grade.

<comment><AUTHOR> I'm only a learner myself. Not a security expert or trying to claim that this is super 1337. It's just a neat thing to play with.</comment></comment>


GOAT launches electric scooters in Austin - <AUTHOR> https://techcrunch.com/2018/05/24/goat-launches-electric-scooters-in-austin/ <comment><USER2> Might be a smart approach at this point to work with city officials rather than attempting the Uber/Airbnb method of "do whatever the fuck we want, worry about the consequences later". I think cities are much more prepared for this sort of thing now.

<comment><USER3> ... especially since SF is clamping down... _hard_.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17148644](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17148644)

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Wondering as a Canadian if these will ever show up here, or if the weather is too bad for too long to bother.</comment>


Anticipatory news discovery, by Pugmarks.me - <AUTHOR> http://blog.pugmarks.me/2013/10/17/anticipatory-news-discovery/

<comment><AUTHOR> Pugmarks.me is like a Google Now, but optimized for news and blogs. It mines topics that are moving through your context, and tries to do "educated serendipity". Available for Chrome on laptops, and soon on Android.</comment>


Can Dirt Save the Earth? - <AUTHOR> https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/18/magazine/dirt-save-earth-carbon-farming-climate-change.html <comment><USER2> Australian farmers, suffering through yet another "unexpectedly intensive" drought, could learn a lot from this. I mean they won't, but they could.

Instead they will whinge and complain and put their hands out and watch their stock die and, when rain falls again, they will take the government-aid cheques and overstock their land and continue the laziest, dumbest form of farming they could import from the cooler, wetter climes of England.

<comment><USER3> That's exactly the mindset of Farmers here in Burgundy, France. We just had one of the dryest summers on record - we're still running a water deficit. Farmer's response: demand government subsidies!

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> If it works, even a little bit, I'm all for it. There are similar stories about e.g. China restoring vast arid lands back into green lands through simple measures that basically include a little bit of engineering but mostly letting nature do what it does best. Similarly, Northern Africa is basically turning land into deserts by letting goats and sheep roam free and to eat everything that looks even remotely green. Some simple fences keeping the animals out can apparently restore a lot of that land in years thus making it possible to farm all sorts of stuff that previously would not grow there at all.

This suggests that figuring out how to manipulate nature to function more optimally, can actually be beneficial. Even merely stopping to do things that are clearly misguided seems to help. Healthy soil does all sorts of things that are beneficial. Holding carbon is part of that yes. But it also holds water. Without water nothing grows. If you fix that, bio diversity increases, the soil becomes richer, more stuff grows. Including the stuff we're interested in farming.

Much of last century was dedicated to intensive farming and short term yields without any regard whatsoever to the long term impact. None of that has to be permanent. If you read science fiction, a popular topic is terra forming. We'll have an opportunity to terra form earth long before we need to terra form somewhere else. Might be easier too and feasible.

</comment><comment><USER5> Nicely written article, but the author needs to have a conversation with a chemist on the difference between carbon, carbon dioxide, and hydrocarbons. The author calls all of them "carbon", making for confusing reading.

Anyway if you need a summary: Spray cow manure on fields to encourage plant grown. Done right you can actually increase topsoil, burying older plants under newer ones and store hydrocarbons there.

Basically reverse soil erosion, with benefits in carbon dioxide capture.

<comment><USER6> Ok, let's cultivate the Sahara!

<comment><USER7> There's a slight problem with water, I believe.

<comment><USER8> Only because we removed all the vegetation.

[https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/03/170314111320.h...](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/03/170314111320.htm)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> > This view ran counter to a lot of conservationist thought, as well as a > great deal of evidence. Grazing has been blamed for turning vast swaths of > the world into deserts. But from Creque's perspective, how you graze makes > all the difference.

This is the idea behind this fantastic TED talk: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpTHi7O66pI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpTHi7O66pI)

We're largely focused on high-tech ways to "fix" the Earth, but the Earth has known how to do it since forever. Finding ways to use her own intelligence seems like a great idea.

<comment><USER10> I remember being blown away by that video but apparently there has been some criticism of Savory's work. Searching his name returns a few critical articles such as this one:

[https://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/2017-2-march- april/feature...](https://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/2017-2-march- april/feature/allan-savory-says-more-cows-land-will-reverse-climate-change)

He has responded to some of them and sticks to his claims. It seems the picture is very complicated and we haven't figured it out just yet.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> A decent article, not pefect but well done. Too often is wildlife, forestry and agricultural sciences tainted with the general populous's biases and misinformation about what is eco-friendly or green despite most people have almost zero experience in any relevant fields. People get taught some simplistic model or ideal as children and never get taught anything beyond that, so they mistakenly believe that they learned all the important and relevant parts to complete the picture. But in reality 9/10 people have never grown more than a few lawn weeds or an extremely hardy house plant that you have to actively attempt to kill. Add in some mass media fluff pieces and bullshit targeted political ads and you got a whole pool of nonsense shielded under the guise of 'common knowledge.'

</comment><comment><USER12> For a book length version of how soil can help the environment in many ways, I suggest "The Soil Will Save Us". [http://www.kristinohlson.com/books/soil- will-save-us](http://www.kristinohlson.com/books/soil-will-save-us)

<comment><USER13> Thanks for the recommendation, just ordered a copy for my wife as a Christmas present. She's a horticulturalist so I think she will love it.

Hacker News accidental Christmas gift shopping tips?

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Aside, but Terra Preta is also well worth looking at, being something that can be easily made by human intervention, improves soil, and permanently sequesters carbon in a form that doesn't break down on any short timescale.

</comment><comment><USER15> Doesn't the account in the article run counter to the narrative that cows are massive greenhouse gas producers? Is there an alternative to grazing that would not require cows?

<comment><USER7> There's the question of what the cows are fed. AFAIK, grazing isn't how most cows feed these days, and the high methane output may have to do with the feed they're given instead of grass. There was a post here some time ago about feeding cows algae, and that also reducing methane output significantly.

That said, even if grazing does result in a net capture if carbon, that doesn't mean that the problems associated with eating beef like we do go away. There's not enough pasture to produce the amounts of meat factory farming puts out.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> Ive nabbed the cover photograph of a big steaming pile of dirt to fertilize my desktop environment with - its splendid :D

<comment><USER17> It reminds me a little too much of my family's cattle ranch. No thanks!

<comment><USER16> I can appreciate, but will see how long it keeps its charm.

...I hardly ever see my desktop anyway.

<comment><USER18> Brown is a great colour.

<comment><USER16> I wouldn't like to do without it. Its not so often I come across a professionally composed picture of a big steaming pile of plant food.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> I love reading about clever ideas like this, but at the same time, I'm leery of the notion that we can fix the climate at the last minute, a narrative that stems from the late capitalist imperative to innovate. We don't need to innovate to find a solution; we need to act.

<comment><USER5> > we need to act

What actions are you suggesting?

And keep in mind that any action that reduces standard of living will cause deaths, and ultimately more emissions because people won't have spare more for environmental causes.

So bearing that in mind, what actions are you suggesting?

<comment><USER20> Tax carbon, use the money to fund a UBI. The UBI increases standard of living as much or more than a carbon tax in the same amount reduces it. The carbon tax itself also promotes living closer to work over having a longer commute, which also improves standard of living by reducing the amount of time unproductively spent commuting. (We could also reduce carbon/commuting further by constructing more high density urban housing.) Reducing oil consumption reduces resources sent to antagonistic OPEC member states, leaving those resources here to improve standard of living as well.

This is before we get to the benefits of having less climate change.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> Sadly not about Keanus latest adventures</comment>


The U.S. Government's Privacy Watchdog Is Basically Dead, Emails Reveal - <AUTHOR> https://theintercept.com/2017/03/03/the-governments-privacy-watchdog-is-basically-dead-emails-reveal/ <comment><USER2> Unrelated and on same site, downvote as it's unrelated: [The SEAL raid] "left 10 children under the age of 13 dead" [https://theintercept.com/2017/03/09/women-and-children-in- ye...](https://theintercept.com/2017/03/09/women-and-children-in-yemeni- village-recall-horror-of-trumps-highly-successful-seal-raid/) !

Couldn't drones fly in instead, snip the cords off the PCs, and drag the machines out again? Build this tech sometime soon please?

</comment><comment><USER3> Another Obama legacy, Trump will continue.</comment>


Ask HN: Am I wasting my time pursuing a math degree? - <AUTHOR> I'm currently pursuing a math degree at the University of Washington. Majoring in CS is out of the question due to some poor choices I made during my freshman year.
I'm actually fairly interested in mathematics, but not as much as I am in CS. I also constantly hear how many people wish they'd taken more math classes in school.
However, I've always preferred learning things on my own. A lot of the people whom I admire are autodidacts themselves.
Will having a BS in math allow me to work at companies such as Google, Microsoft, etc? Or am I wasting time (and money) which would be better spent learning CS/math on my own and gaining experience in the industry? <comment><USER2> Certainly getting pursuing a math degree is not a waste of time compared to only studying math on your own.

Washington has a _fantastic_ math department, one of the top 30 in the country. Max Lieblich is an outstanding algebraic geometer and a brilliant lecturer. They have one of the top combinatorics research groups in the world. John Lee is a great differential geometer and a well-known and well-regarded author. William Stein is an expert in number theory and single-handedly started the SAGE project.

Do you think you could learn math better without these people's help, or with it?

The _real_ point of a good university class, once you get through the required freshman stuff, is that it will expose you to a lot of amazing material that you don't know is out there yet, and simultaneously it introduce you to professors and students who are excited about this stuff. I anticipate that any of the professors I mentioned would be very happy to guide some independent learning/research if you finished some basic classes, showed some motivation, and proved that you were good.

Good luck!

</comment><comment><USER3> I see many strange statements in your text. The choices of a freshman aren't permanent. You can always go back an change your degree program; it just may take longer. A friend of mine in college decided in his 5th year of engineering (it's a 5 year program there) to switch to physics, so he was in school for about 8 years. Even if UW says that you cannot change majors (very unlikely), you could always switch colleges. The question of course is where your money comes from, but you didn't say that was a big issue, only a parenthetical one.

Second, you didn't say anything about getting a minor in CS; why not? What's preventing you from taking CS courses anyway? Even after you fulfill the CS minor requirements, take a couple of extra. That would also indicate to prospective employees that you are interested in learning things even when it isn't required.

Third, I took too much math in college. My math department let people fulfill either the pure track or the applied track. I did the pure and most of the applied. I can say that the calculus of variations has never ever been useful for anything I did later, and what I learned most from Principles of Real Analysis II was that I wasn't interested in pursuing real analysis as a career. Oh, and "Groups, Rings, and Vector Spaces" was the only C I got in college. Taking that class could have been useful if I decided to go into particle theory in physics grad school. I instead went into biophysics.

In some sense we are all autodidacts, it's just some of us have more direct help than others. Sure, you could figure out most of this on your own, but it really helps to get help from others when you are stuck, or to get a sense of which problems are important, and to learn what's new vs. what's well-known.

As for working at Google, MS, etc - you do realize there are many positions at those companies, right? A friend of mine dropped out of school as a film major, did some work helping out with local GIS companies, moved to the Bay Area to work with a GIS software provider, then GIS at Autodesk, and is now Lead UI Designer at Microsoft Games. What you major in can help you advance faster on your career path, but that's only if you know what you want to do. As you don't, figure out what it is you want to do, and in the meanwhile, finish off your BS in math/CS minor while talking to people about options.

Hint: "work at Google" is not a good career goal. After all, what are you going to do after you are hired by Google? Another hint: don't you have an advisor you can talk with?

<comment><AUTHOR> My college doesn't offer a minor in CS, and it's quite hard to get into the CS department with my current GPA. UW has a bit of an issue with this:

[http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/dannywestneat/20169870...](http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/dannywestneat/2016987078_danny11.html)

And I guess you're right. I should figure out what I want to do more specifically. I had never thought about it more than just "software".

<comment><USER3> Sucks to be you.... or a CS student at UW.

Math has overlaps with CS. There's surely justification for taking extra CS classes as part of your math degree. Data visualization requires knowing some computer graphics (and some art theory), automata theory is very math oriented, numerical methods of course requires programming (but the boring sorts of programming that CS departments don't usually teach).

If you want to go more into sys admin, then does your local math department need help with their system maintenance?

Some universities have a track or certificate in "computational science", and the EE department might also have CS-like courses.

My biggest regret about my undergrad education is that I didn't do a summer internship. Now is the time to apply for this summer; perhaps you'll find something interesting.

You have many options.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I finished a PhD in pure mathematics three years ago and then abandoned academia because it's stale. My degree opens a lot of doors, enables me to attack problems that nobody else can fathom, and generally allows me to do whatever the hell I'd like.

While completing my degree, I devoted all of my spare time to building real products, coding all night, and learning to sell my ideas.

A math degree is a valuable asset if you love to do math. It'll give you the opportunity to solve lots of interesting problems, but only if you also make things that non-mathematical folks can understand. You must learn to communicate your ideas to anyone that will listen.

Develop proficiency in some platform, build a product, solve a problem, and learn how to talk about it -- this is all trivially routine, but it goes a long way when it comes to executives, investors, managers, and their ilk.

Eventually, you'll reach a point where you'll need to focus exclusively on mathematics... that's fine and everyone will understand. But before then, be sure to do something practical.

</comment><comment><USER5> Companies such as Google and Microsoft will narrowly focus on algorithms and data structures, so if you take three or four classes in these areas, actually learn the material, and can code very, very well, you'll have no problem with a math degree. Just do an internship.

If you don't finish your degree someone will eventually hold it over your head and ruin your day (go work somewhere else if you want a raise, wait... you can't!) When you get those 'why do I need a degree' feelings remember that it is not to get a job, it is to get a better job. For lack of better expression, certain people in industry will try to make you their bitch. You need the ability to walk away.

As far as learning, you are not paying to learn things, you are paying to be tested on things for which you receive a stamp of approval.

</comment><comment><USER6> As a holder of two math degrees, I have exactly one thing to say to you: if you want to get a job when you are done, do an internship or three. If you get a couple of decent internships, demonstrating your CS skills becomes irrelevant, because you'll have already done it on the job.

</comment><comment><USER7> You will never be wasting your time if you're doing something you enjoy.

</comment><comment><USER8> It is far easier to informally demonstrate your CS skills than to informally demonstrate your math skills.</comment>


Ask HN: How do you solve internal software documentation at your company? - <AUTHOR> We have a big mix of markdown files / swagger docs / docstrings / other html/css/js docs (react storybook).<p>And are looking to centralize them in a way that allows for: Github authentication, search / indexing, internal commenting / discussion. <comment><USER2> I built an internal wiki replacement: nurtch.com

It provides ability to create documents with markdown text, images, executable code and output all within single document. Although it's optimized for infrastructure runbooks, it can be used for any internal documentation. Reports, metrics, onboarding guides, design documents etc.

If you don't foresee any need for executable code then it's probably not for you. I have seen teams use Dropbox paper, Media wiki, and sometimes Gdocs for static internal documentation.

<comment><USER3> BTW, how do you differentiate [https://nurtch.com](https://nurtch.com) from [https://netbraintech.com](https://netbraintech.com) (the executable runbook people)?

<comment><USER2> NetBrain seems focused on network infrastructure. Nurtch is simply executable runbook platform for anything you would want to automate.

Nurtch's primary use case is quick incident response for any operational issues. E.g. service outage, dependency failures, database acting up and such. Rubix library (bundled with Nurtch) helps with diagnosing and acting on these issues.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> We use a WordPress website with a plugin to make it into a knowlegebase wiki. First we used a plugin called UserPress. Then we moved to Zhen documsntation. Now we use a Plugin called Helpie. It's Front-end editor is good use for internal documentation.

</comment><comment><USER5> I'm building a tool like this, but I'm 2 months from launching.</comment>


Font War: Inside the Design World's $20M Divorce - <AUTHOR> http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-04-08/font-war-inside-the-design-worlds-20-million-divorce#r=most%20popular <comment><USER2> If Frere-Jones loses the lawsuit, he should just release his own versions of Gotham, Whitney, etc. After all, in the United States, typefaces are not subject to copyright [1]. There is legal precedent that provides protection for font files, (i.e. the "software" that generates the fonts) but the designs themselves cannot be copyrighted. Just consider the many variants of Helvetica or Futura [2], each published by a different foundry.

If Frere-Jones' allegations are true, I've lost all respect for what is now Hoefler & Co. I remember eagerly awaiting the release of H&FJ webfont licensing for years. Quite a shame what has happened between the two, H&FJ was truly a great foundry.

[1] [http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi- bin/retrieveECFR?gp=&SID=a71104dd9f0...](http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi- bin/retrieveECFR?gp=&SID=a71104dd9f045002681202f3f302a5d4&r=PART&n=37y22.214.171.124.3#37:184.108.40.206.184.108.40.206)

[2] [http://www.quora.com/Typefaces/Which-foundrys-version-of- Fut...](http://www.quora.com/Typefaces/Which-foundrys-version-of-Futura- should-I-buy/answer/Stephen-Coles-1?share=1)

<comment><USER3> If Frere-Jones released versions of Gotham & Whitney, he'd be cutting off his nose to spite his face. There'd a very large amount of investment required to create anything close to the the versatility & range of H&Co's Gotham (including all various weights, narrow families and truetype hinted webfonts), and it would render him a much less sympathetic character.

His best bet is his current course of action, arduous and expensive as it is. It really does appear that he's been shafted, but I hope each side gets a fair hearing before a judge.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Even if everything Hoefler says is true, and he owns the company outright, the fact that he let a high-ranking employee of his for many years believe they were a full partner is utterly deplorable.

<comment><USER5> To the point of doing business under the purported employee's name! That's pretty low.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Seems they've already changed the name to Hoefler & Co on their website[1]. Also interesting that Frere-Jones isn't exclusively using ahis own typefaces on his own website[2], likely due to them being owned by Hoefler.

H&FJ make some of my favorite typefaces; it's a shame their relationship has come to an end.

1\. [http://www.typography.com/](http://www.typography.com/) 2\. [http://www.frerejones.com/](http://www.frerejones.com/)

EDIT: Whoops, looks like MyFonts attributed it to different designers [http://www.myfonts.com/fonts/fontbureau/benton-modern- displa...](http://www.myfonts.com/fonts/fontbureau/benton-modern-display/)

<comment><USER7> I hate to chip in on matters i know nothing about but that contract looks suspiciously one sided even for someone who knows nothing about this situation.

As in something only a trusting gullible person would sign based on a verbal agreement and without consulting a lawyer.

2 years unable to work without your previous employers permission? Holy shit is that even enforceable?

He definitely got screwed to what degree I don't know.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> The legal complaint by Frere-Jones is riveting:

[https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/fbem/DocumentDisplayServlet...](https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/fbem/DocumentDisplayServlet?documentId=ydQwzs4EZjDkplRrBmkkwA==system=prod)

<comment><USER9> This part is amusing:

THE PARTIES

4\. Plaintiff Tobias Frere-Jones is one of the world's leading and most recognized type designers, having designed over 800 fonts, in over 145 languages, that are widely used in newspapers, magazines, advertising, packaging, websites, corporate identities, political campaigns and websites around the world. He joined the faculty of the Yale School of Art in 1996 and frequently lectures on typeface design and typography at other academic institutions and graphic design organizations throughout the world. His work has been profiled in many trade and general purpose publications, and is included in the permanent collection of the Victoria & Albert Museum, London and the Museum of Modern Art, New York. In 2006, Frere-Jones became the first American to receive the prestigious Gerrit Noordzij Prize, presented by the Royal Academy of Fine Arts in The Hague in honor of his unique contributions to type design, typography, and type education. In 2013, he received the AlGA medal -the graphic design profession's highest honor-in recognition for his exceptional achievements over the course of his career, and his contributions to the field of design and visual communication.

5\. Defendant Jonathan Hoefler is also a type designer and a businessman.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> It really does seem like Hoefler pulled one helluva scam on poor Frere-Jones, here. And I really hope FJ gets some relief. But. Talk about painting a giant target on your forehead...

</comment><comment><USER11> Get. It. In. Writing. Number zero rule of doing business, especially with friends.

</comment><comment><USER12> "The sale was for nominal consideration of $10 and Frere-Jones, who had left Font Bureau, moved to New York and actively worked to build HTF" This should be enough to show that Hoefler is a scumbag - and Frere-Jones a really naive person. I hope that Hoefler will have his business reputation ruined.

</comment><comment><USER13> This reminds me of the feud between Cobden-Sanderson and Walker over the _Doves_ font that was used by Kelmscott Press, founded by William Morris. Cobden-Sanderson committed "typocide" in order to prevent others from using this font.

[http://www.economist.com/news/christmas- specials/21591793-le...](http://www.economist.com/news/christmas- specials/21591793-legendary-typeface-gets-second-life-fight-over-doves)

[http://7thsealblog.wordpress.com/2011/09/10/reviving-the- dov...](http://7thsealblog.wordpress.com/2011/09/10/reviving-the-doves- type-%E2%80%93-part-i-2/)

</comment><comment><USER14> How does something like this even materialize? Is it a matter of there not being written contracts I mean the guys name was in the company name how can they say he was only an employee?

<comment><USER15> FJ's name wasn't in the official company name, just their assumed (doing business as) name, which is meaningless.

<comment><USER14> So essentially the one guy with more business sense tricked the other guy into thinking things were one way when they were not.

<comment><USER16> Essentially, but we need a phrase other than "business sense" to describe this kind of terrible behavior.

<comment><USER5> Sociopath?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Even to a type enthusiast, their ~equal partnership rang like a bell. Can Frere-Jones be blamed (putting aside legalities) for his lapse? Just reminisce, a mere 8 years, no Venture Hacks and Y Combinator, no bright lights on the way naifs should think about business and partnerships. How many verbal contracts gone sour have _you_ heard about? We are trusting souls.

(These guys joined up in 1999.)

</comment><comment><USER18> Trust, but verify.

<comment><USER19> In God we trust; all others bring data.</comment></comment>


Facebook buys Parse - <AUTHOR> http://techcrunch.com/2013/04/25/facebook-parse/ <comment><USER2> This doesn't surprise me in that it seems like a natural fit for Facebook, who has a Mobile Problem [tm].

As much as people fear Facebook becoming The Internet (in the AOL sense), Facebook is actually really late to this party.

Apple has a mobile OS, a content and payments ecosystem and a deeply integrated set of products.

Google has a mobile OS, GMail, a search engine, a burgeoning content ecosystem and its Maps/local properties.

Amazon has a content and payments ecosystem, a limited mobile presence (Kindle Fires basically, which are of course tablets not phones) and cloud infrastructure.

All of these things are (IMHO) pieces in technology's future. Facebook really is a one trick pony (although an 8000 pound pony if you want to stretch the metaphor).

It's why you saw them panic about Instagram (if a ~2 year old company with 13 employees is an existential threat then your position is, by definition, precarious).

It's why rumours of a Facebook Phone have circulated for a year or two (eg Project Spartan) and why Facebook launched Facebook Home. It's trying to get the benefits of having a mobile OS without actually developing one and building market share (ask Microsoft how hard that is).

Facebook's strength really is being a closed silo/platform for The Internet (or a version of it at least). So buying Parse makes perfect sense as they want to extend the reach and power of the Facebook platform.

Congrats to the Parse guys.

Disclaimer: I am an engineer for Google.

<comment><USER3> Ironic that Google seems to have a social networking problem, while Facebook has a mobile problem.

<comment><USER4> If google keeps ramming their social network product down peoples throats it won't be very long before they have more than just a social networking problem.

<comment><USER5> As a user my G+ experience is so far superior to my Facebook one that I laugh every time I read something like this. I check my G+ every day because my streams are interesting and I enjoy it; I check my FB everyday because my entire extended family, pre-school friends and their dogs have accounts there.

People are crazy to think that Google should not just have one account that spans all their services, it makes business and technical sense; however, if you don't like G+ just don't use it- your Google account just might mean you have a blank place holder page there.

<comment><USER4> I don't use facebook either. So G+ is far inferior because at least I can get facebook out of my life.

<comment><USER6> Do you just not like the name? As voidlogic points out, it's basically a generic account for Google services. There's a potential to engage socially, but you don't have to.

<comment><USER4> I'm pretty hard to fool.

<comment><USER7> No, you're just hard to please. There's a difference.

<comment><USER8> He is a C programmer.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Damn. I was going to use Parse for my app, but now I will not. What are some of the alternatives out there?

<comment><USER10> Bummer. Can I ask why this changed your mind? At FB, we're quite serious about finding ways to gift third party developers with APIs, tools, open source, platforms, whatever we can do to help. I think Parse is pretty awesome and is likely to become more so at Facebook. That's a useless opinion if it's not shared by the wider community, though.

So: feedback taken seriously - we're listening. Fire away.

<comment><USER11> > gift third party developers with APIs...

Phrasing like this concerns me. When making platform decisions, I would very much like greater assurance that there is an expectation of how a relationship matures than you would find in a "gifting" scenario. I feel like sometimes the attitude from Facebook has been "We're giving all of this stuff away for free! What is there to complain about?" Free means no expectation of warranty and zero assumed reliability.

I don't really even care about free. If you're running a real startup, you pay for things, and I would gladly pay for Facebook API usage if it meant that Facebook took their APIs a little more seriously (I could talk at great length about all the subtleties in Facebook's APIs that require us to duplicate insane amounts of work that Facebook could _easily_ take care of). Amazon is clearly the best at this with AWS (especially in preemptively coming up with new services it turns out everyone was building piecemeal anyway), I would look at Amazon's APIs and try to port the some good insights to the Graph API.

<comment><USER12> I think the word gift and give in this context are interchangeable. Sounds like you found a word to pick at and are now just hating Facebook for the sake of it. (You managed to extrapolate that Facebook has 0 assumed reliability because he used the word gift.)

<comment><USER11> Quite the contrary, I think Facebook is great and is only getting better. But as someone who builds a lot of stuff on their APIs I can say it's easily the shakiest component of our architecture.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Congrats to the Parse team!!

As a customer, not necessarily happy about this. I don't like Doug Purdy's quote, "We don't _intend_ to change this." We use Parse and love it. I really hope they maintain some autonomy as to not get sucked into the "move fast and break things" or "documentation? f--k it." Nonetheless, probably makes a lot of sense for Facebook's mobile strategy.

<comment><USER14> Our focus on quality in product and documentation got us to this point so we're not going to change that strategy anytime soon :-)

<comment><USER15> What did your revenues look like?

This acquisition doesn't really tell us if Parse, based around a proprietary SDK, had a viable business model or not.

<comment><USER14> I can't share revenue numbers but we picked this route over multiple Series B term sheets. So, that's a measure of viability.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Shout out to HN favorite grellas for being our counsel.

<https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=grellas>

<comment><USER16> Thanks, Ilya - amazing outcome and richly deserved. A wonderful group of founders and a supportive and first-class group of investors.

<comment><USER4> Now there is a good combination :)

Congratulations to all of you!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> It's nice to see Facebook is aware of the areas which it lacks in. Just recently (in the last couple of days), there was an article clearly saying how mobile developers are in fact turning away from Facebook, for a variety of reasons. Acquiring Parse is not only demonstrating acknowledgment of this problem, but also providing a potential solution and way to tackle the problem.

Congratulations to the Parse team and good luck in helping to bring more developers to Facebook's platform! Given Parse's success so far, I don't see how or why Facebook shouldn't benefit from this acquisition.

</comment><comment><USER18> Could this mean that Facebook is positioning itself as the AWS (in a very metaphoric sense) for mobile and expanding opportunities for the Facebook kapp ecosystem?

I understand that this is a new revenue stream for the company but I've never really seen the Facebook apps platform spawn "fully-fledged" apps other than those that boasted some form of basic Facebook integration. On the desktop at least, a Facebook app has always existed as a second-class citizen, being on a separate page that is segregated from the rest of the Facebook experience. Of course, you can argue that News Feed integration is one way to mitigate that, but from what I've seen, such integration is sparse and jarring - serving as an ad for the application that people on Facebook see.

</comment><comment><USER19> I'm a big fan of Parse even though I prefer Firebase as a developer. This is sad news because I think they were one company that was executing really well and would have been successful on their own. Even though Facebook and Parse say they are not going to shutdown the service we all know how that story goes.

<comment><USER14> They may not be the majority but there are acquisitions where a service keeps running. This is one of them.

<comment><USER20> Parse is awesome, and you may be right, but for me being owned by Facebook is a deal breaker.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> Interesting that Ilya doesn't seem to apprehend why so many people are uneasy about this.

<comment><USER14> I apprehend it and it's an important issue to address. So, I'm addressing it.

<comment><USER22> You're not addressing it, you're just making reassuring noises. Addressing it would involve explaining why Facebook actually bought Parse and how it fits in their overall strategy. There are many reasons, both honest and dishonest, why you may not be able to explain that, but until you do, you're not addressing the issue.

Which is fine by me - I don't have any eggs in this basket - but the pedant in me needed to point this out. If you want to have a chance to dispel all the doubts, start by answering the above clearly and with no overly enthusiastic exaggerations à la "Facebook is awesome and Parse is so great" and so on...

<comment><USER23> It's really not that hard to understand why Facebook "actually" bought Parse. Parse has a great product that developers like to use. Facebook has a platform and that requires making users and developers happy. Buying a product that makes developers happy and making it a part of Facebook's platform is a pretty straightforward strategy.

<comment><USER22> That's an incorrect explanation.

 _Facebook has a platform and that requires making users and developers happy._

No, Facebook has a platform that requires extracting as much personal data from people as possible in order to sell ads to advertisers. The developer platform, apps, etc, are all subordinate to this objective. There's no business model for Facebook to "make people happy". It is absolutely an advertising company, and Parse is/was not. So, the question remains, how does Parse fit into Facebook's advertising-driven business model?

<comment><USER23> That is a pretty big misunderstanding of how Facebook operates. If Facebook put advertisers ahead of users, it would not be at 1B users and it would not have been around for 8 years, and dominant for many of those years. The business model is primarily to make people happy to make sure to have their attention, and secondarily to sell ads against this attention.

I've worked at Amazon, Google, and Facebook. The core characteristic of each of these companies is that they are all ruthlessly focused on their primary customer as the user, not as the retailer or the advertiser. And it is for this reason that they get to massive scale and become dominant. If you don't get this, then you won't understand why Parse is a clear fit.

<comment><USER22> Ah, that ruthless focus on keeping the users and the developer community happy must be why Google killed Reader and will probably kill Feedburner soon, and why so many great products got acquired and then killed by their new owners a few years later.

You're right that if you believe what you just declared, then Parse's future at Facebook seems reasonable. You're also right that we won't convince each other of our views on this, so I guess time will tell whether Parse continues to thrive or gets shitcanned in a few years.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Apple should have just acquired Parse. iCloud is a mess, it's a next step for them to provide some sort of back end API for iOS developers. They're sitting on a huge pile of cash and all Tim could come up with is stock buyback.

<comment><USER25> While I agree that there needs to be a "fix" (and I have to assume one is in the works), but taking the Microsoft route of throwing money at problems until they work put them into the position they are today.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> I'm not a mobile developer, which is probably why I struggle to see what Parse does? What does Parse give me (if I was a mobile dev) that I don't get from Heroku+libs? Are push notifications and identity so painful to deal with that there's a business in creating a full platform to deal with it?

<comment><USER27> _Are push notifications and identity so painful to deal with that there's a business in creating a full platform to deal with it?_

Yes. (at least on iOS, not sure about Android or Win)

Parse has an iOS data object that syncs properly, whereas there is no evidence that any developer has ever gotten Apple's own iCloud + Core Data to sync properly at the record level.

Parse is cross platform so you can easily get the same data for a user on a desktop, web, android, iOS and windows mobile app.

Cobbling all this together with Heroku + libs would be possible but would require a lot of work. Parse just works out of the box.

<comment><USER28> > _Yes. (at least on iOS, not sure about Android or Win)_

er, what? It's an afternoon's worth of work, involving basic PKI and TCP sockets. I know it's an afternoon's worth of work, because I've done it in an afternoon.

<comment><USER29> That's silly. Seeing as how I had to google PKI to see what it was, I doubt I'd be able to build a Parse-like service in one afternoon. Parse may not be strictly necessary, but it's a fantastically easy and cheap way for iOS (and Android and front-end and Windows Phone) developers to get their backend up and running.

<comment><USER28> > _Seeing as how I had to google PKI to see what it was, I doubt I'd be able > to build a Parse-like service in one afternoon._

Then it's something you would learn, and those several afternoons would mean that you'd be well equipped to tackle a similar problem in an afternoon later.

Basic x509 certificates and PKI is really something an iOS developer (or any developer, really) should be able handle. Understanding this stuff is pretty central to just about all secure communications we have between clients/servers _anywhere_. It's not like you have to reimplement a crypto library; you just need to know the basics of how they work.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> Congrats guy, you all deserved it. Awesome team, lots of hard work, and it sounds like Facebook will be a great home.

</comment><comment><USER31> Parse is handling 10 million requests for our app per month, and I'm very uneasy about this.

<comment><USER14> Why? Email me - firstname.lastname@example.com

<comment><USER32> Is it really not obvious? Parse doesn't overlap with Facebook's core goals and that frequently means somewhere down the road "business as usual" means "you have 60 days to GTFO". There's also not wanting Facebook to have access to your data or just plain not wanting to do business with Facebook (I fall under that category, a FB buyout or partnership is the fastest way to get me to stop using a service).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> Here's my speculation: Facebook bought Parse to attempt to own mobile usage data. Draw parallels with what Google did when they bought Urchin to form Google Analytics. I don't think Facebook cares about creating developer experiences. I think they care about having tracking hooks into mobile applications.

<comment><USER14> That's incorrect.

<comment><USER34> Why? Makes sense to me. Why else would Facebook want to "power my app" with Parse?

Haven't they always only offered developer services for their own platform and not the wider web?

<comment><USER35> The person who wrote "That's incorrect" is a Parse founder (<https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=csmajorfive>).

<comment><USER28> Does that make his statement more or less likely to be accurate?

<comment><USER36> More likely to be accurate.

If the original statement had a nugget of truth it would be easiest to just ignore it and not answer. Instead, they are going on the record and saying its not true.

<comment><USER28> > _Instead, they are going on the record and saying its not true._

It's not like "going on record" means anything; truth is an oddly malleable thing. What's true today might not be tomorrow, what is said to be true may only be what the speaker _needs_ you to believe is true, or it may be the speaker only _believes_ it to be true.

The best predictor of what's to come is past experience and objective observation, not the words of people who have both incentive and ego wrapped up in propagating a particular narrative.

[edit] From another comment, here's an e-mail from the Parse team, from 1/15/2013 -- only 3 months ago:

"Being acquired isn't part of our game plan for now. We want to build a viable business that people can use and enjoy. We have 50k apps built on our infrastructure and a huge customer base that is growing rapidly. Everyday we have more and more Basic, Pro, and Enterprise users paying us for our awesome services."

<https://gist.github.com/brianpattison/5463282>

When you're dealing with venture capitalists, the truth is whatever they need the audience to believe.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> _/me immediately downloads dumps of all his app's data._

But seriously, what will this mean for my user data? Privacy, portability, etc.

What alternatives are there that compare in quality? Don't tell me HeliOS, because that's iOS-only (I use Parse for it's web apps mostly).

<comment><USER14> We're not changing anything. We're not going to suddenly lock in your data, share it somewhere you don't want it to be shared, or anything like that.

<comment><USER32> No one gets married with a divorce planned, but divorces aren't exactly uncommon. This quote from Zuck comes to mind:

> "We have not once bought a company for the company. We buy companies to get > excellent people."

As do a few acquisitions followed by shut-downs: Drop.io, Face.com ($100M!), Gowalla, etc.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> And I was having such a great day until I read this. R.I.P. Parse

<comment><USER39> Why? No plans to let it rest.

<comment><USER40> I'm sure that's not Ilya and team's plan; but the issue is that they no longer have ownership of their "plan".

I'm struggling to see how this isn't blatantly obvious to a lot of commenters here.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER41> As a Parse user I had hoped they would be a "never sell" type of company. This news saddens me.

We will likely be migrating off soon.

<comment><USER42> As someone who was just about to use Parse, what options are you looking at?

<comment><USER43> See the replies here: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5609898>

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER44> I hope the platform can stay as independent as it is. I just recently won a Google arranged hackathon in Munich (and through it a fully paid trip and tickets to I/O - yay!) and it would have been totally impossible to do this without parse. A few lines of code and I was able to setup a complex messaging system between a native Android app and a server visualisation. It sets you free from so many worries and really makes any mobile app that talks to a server so much easier to develop. It's the single most useful service I have ever used in this space.

</comment><comment><USER45> Good news for the Parse team, but not so good for Parse users.

<comment><USER14> Why? We're not going anywhere. Email me if you want to chat - email@example.com

<comment><USER46> For the love of code, please place a 'delete account' option within your gui.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER47> Everyone wants a piece of mobile dev tools. Think Twitter + Crashlytics and now Facebook + Parse. As some might remember, Facebook at one point only had Heroku as their core Dev partner [1], so it only makes sense for Facebook to get in this space.

[1] <https://developers.facebook.com/blog/post/558/>

</comment><comment><USER48> Does $85M seem really cheap to anyone else?

<comment><USER49> No? From what I can see they've taken less than a 10th of that in VC. And this is the first time in over a year that I've heard anything about them. Buzz isn't everything, and maybe there was a viable business there. But they certainly weren't setting the world on fire.

It's pretty hard to see how a near $100 million exit in circumstances like that would be disappointing or "really cheap". (And congrats certainly seem in order for everyone involved).

<comment><USER50> _But they certainly weren't setting the world on fire._

Actually their growth was _very_ good, among the steepest of all the 500 or so companies we've funded.

<comment><USER49> That's great to hear. But since pretty much nobody here has access to those awespme internals, I still don't see where the gp's "really cheap" impression would be coming from.

<comment><USER51> When you have used the technology and seen with your own eyes the amount of time and effort it saves you when developing a mobile app, $85M really seems very cheap, especially when you compare it to how much they paid for an Instagram for example. Plus it should be mentioned that although their primary focus was on mobile platform, their SDK's also support Windows desktop, MacOSX, and traditional web dev. The potential is absolutely huge.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER52> Whoa. This is pretty big news. This + Piecable + Facebook's huge push in mobile development recently = Facebook building a new, simpler development platform/environment for mobile apps? This speculation can be taken pretty far.

<comment><USER53> Facebooks problem is a fundamental development culture one, 'move fast and break things' is not great from the perspective of developers latching onto your platform. If the reward is great enough, yes its worth it...

<comment><USER39> Working on improving these things! Indeed we hope this deal demonstrates that.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER54> Dammit...was just about to start using Parse on two major projects after a fair bit of testing. Back to square one it is.

</comment><comment><USER55> Parse is an amazing product. Facebook just killed it on this acquisition if they can find a way to leverage Parse's ability to provide quicker deployment and their position as a great platform for rapid distribution.

</comment><comment><USER56> Seriously disappointed. Many (me included) will fear that a brilliant product like Parse will be abused to reheat the future outlook on Facebook.

I hope the product itself will stay as independent as possible (very unlikely).

</comment><comment><USER57> And here I thought there wasn't any money in dev tools...

</comment><comment><USER58> Well this is not the future I was hoping for with Parse and our apps. What to do, what to do...

</comment><comment><USER59> Congrats to the team for being the third-biggest exit to date of a company to come from a seed accelerator. <http://www.seed- db.com/companies/funding?value=exit>

[edited; originally said FB bought OMGPOP but it was Zynga. Sorry I was wrong, it's past midnight here]

Looks like they're making Ignition Partners happy... I'd guess around a 4x return. But making a lot of other angels/funds happy, too. (Garry Tan, Google Ventures, David Rusenko amongst others). Details here: <http://www.seed- db.com/companies/view?companyid=102025>

<comment><USER60> I thought Zynga bought OMGPOP?

</comment></comment><comment><USER61> I just started to build my app on Parse. Now I want to migrate. What are the alternatives?

</comment><comment><USER62> Congrats, Parse guys. Please try not to let Facebook ruin an awesome service.

<comment><USER63> We heart them and their services. They aren't going anywhere.

</comment></comment><comment><USER64> It's weird... Last night I had a completely "arbitrary" dream about this company. Like, my <insert fake company name here> company was struggling with payments and this company was in my dream.

I'll acknowledge that I've been using CPAP for over a year and now can actually remember my dreams (_shudder_) because I sleep so well, and I don't actually use this service, but for some reason my dreams were very vivid. I'm not even sure why they might be relevant to me right now. Maybe I read too much HN before bed... ;)

</comment><comment><USER65> If you could have invented Parse.. you would have invented Parse

</comment><comment><USER66> Congrats to the Parse team, great product and team.

(from the buddy.com team)

</comment><comment><USER67> 28 days ago I said : Expect Parse to be bought soon.

<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5454779>

<comment><USER68> Nice. What caused you to think that then?

</comment></comment><comment><USER69> Lol that's a lot of money to pay for a mongodb instance

<comment><USER14> lol

<comment><USER70> lol

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER71> Congrats to the Parse team. I am a bit bummed. I was very happy to compete with them. Hopefully the founders stay and keep bringing it on.

<comment><USER14> We're staying.

<comment><USER71> Cool! See you guys in the trenches.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER72> That was fast <https://www.stackmob.com/parse/>

</comment><comment><USER40> This is really disheartening. I'm glad that I only build a POC on top of Parse before fully diving in.

Any recommendations for comparable services (something with a decent javascript api would be nice; i'm not doing a whole lot with native mobile)

</comment><comment><USER73> Soon FB will monetize most of their APIs too. Example: Real-time access to all its social stream is going to be a paid usage API.

<comment><USER74> I'd rather see that approach than a no entry, shut down developers approach. Admittedly Facebook offers a lot more than Twitter to justify such a cost, but Twitter seems like somewhere developers want to be too. Paid usage API sounds like a good idea to me.

</comment></comment><comment><USER75> So surges of facebook apps will have data with default ACLs set to everyone?

</comment><comment><USER76> Congrats to Parse folks!

</comment><comment><USER77> Congrats!

</comment><comment><USER20> That really sucks. I mean it is great for the Parse team but I trust Facebook as far as I can throw Zuckerberg.</comment>


Immersion: a people-centric view of your email life - <AUTHOR> http://immersion.media.mit.edu From: http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/07/02/what-the-n-s-a-knows-about-you/ <comment><AUTHOR> Story from: [http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/07/02/what-the- n-s-...](http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/07/02/what-the-n-s-a-knows- about-you/)</comment>


Amazon Unveils New Alexa Dialog Modeling for Natural, Cross-Skill Conversations - <AUTHOR> https://developer.amazon.com/blogs/alexa/post/9615b190-9c95-452c-b04d-0a29f6a96dd1/amazon-unveils-novel-alexa-dialog-modeling-for-natural-cross-skill-conversations <comment><USER3> My own thinking about conversational AI changed recently after a coworker of mine pointed out that most dictative conversations only require 2 or 3 pieces of carried context. That's a level of depth that does not require a massive technical breakthrough, but could be semi reasonably solved with tremendous effort (exists), and current technologies.

It's true that a good PA brings much earlier context, and "out of band" context to the table, but a customer support service (e.g. delta) really does not.

With this in mind, I think these conversational agents are going to be much more performant than expected in the fairly near future.

<comment><USER4> Some chatbots have been pretty passable at holding simple conversations for a while. Cleverbot's initial version started in 1986, and seems to have been okay at conversations even then. I remember using it in the early 2000s and being fairly impressed. I don't even think it's using any ML currently, and it's still giving me pretty decent results when I tried using it again just now.

Alexa has more complex requirements (it's funny when Cleverbot gives an occasional nonsensical response, but not so funny when Alexa unexpectedly orders you a $2,000 lawn gnome - okay, still kind of funny), but I definitely agree with you. I don't think this is a challenge that requires anything close to AGI, unless you want to start having truly insightful and philosophical conversations with a computer.

<comment><USER5> The existing implementations still have a long way to go. Here's the chat I just had with cleverbot, the first thing it gave me after going to the site:

> Good afternoon. Do you know any good places to get dinner?

> Mot really.

> What about dessert?

> That's if you're a good bot.

> Not for you, for me.

> Okay..

Completely useless. I asked Alexa to find me the article on hacker news from today that talks about chat bots, she said "Sorry, I don't know that one"

As a random, unscientific test it's not very useful yet.

<comment><USER6> ...dude. The point never had anything to do with being the modern "PA" you're imagining. It's a chat bot designed 30+ years. It's a neat (and at the time, breakthrough) for having conversations. It's not intended to go find information for you..

<comment><USER5> That's the point. It might sound vaguely human but without the context to find and deliver information it's completely useless

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I'm interested in someone's POV on Amazon's skill-forward approach - <USER2> on third parties to create skills that are actually good, and then helping them talk to each other - compared to Google Assistant's approach, which seems to be focused on first-party capabilities as the Actions on Google ecosystem is not so developed.

<comment><USER8> I think both have their merits and it surprises me that both of them don't do more of what the other one is doing. First party skills are a great way to make the platform more integrated and useful for the user but third-party is a great way to expand an ecosystem of skills they've never thought Of.

<comment><USER9> With their moves with Nest I don't think Google's play is to be a platform... But rather they want to own all of that stuff and tell you what to do with it. They want to be an agent and not a platform.

<comment><USER8> They do, but that move surprises me. You would think they'd want to be a platform so they could collect data that they didn't even think about collecting. They could still own the data even if they were a platform they would just have to share little chunks of it with different third-parties.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I think using Alexa conversation style is just awful. I wish it would move toward a more explicit list of items -> descend -> new list of items approach.

The area where Alexa is most likely to show its warts is when you fall for the trap of trying to engage in a normal dialog with it.

<comment><USER11> Agreed. I also wouldn't mind a lot less verbosity when giving it a command rather than a query. Turn off the lights, or set a timer for 15 minutes could probably be confirmed with an "Ok" or even just a pleasant chirp/beep sound. "Ok Turning 15 light off" "You got it, timer set for 15 minutes" is unnecessary.

<comment><USER12> Alexa has had this feature for a while. You can set it to do a quick beep on success.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I've noticed that my Alexa no longer requires me to ask a request of certain skills in a lot of cases so it seems to be getting smarter about choosing skills automatically. This seems like a natural next step.

<comment><USER13> They might not have had to do that in the first place(not that it's necessarily a _bad_ feature) if they didn't shoot themselves in the foot by making skill discoverability exceptionally difficult. The fact that the Alexa mobile app continues to slower and slower, and was a slow and clunky piece of junk right out of the gate, certainly doesn't help.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Sometimes I worry that there are certain computational tasks which simultaneously require one human mind to encompass a large portion of their structure while that structure is too large to fit into a human mind, or too large to work with on a practical basis. You know, a "kernel of functionality" that can't be compartmentalized between multiple developers but still has to scale to a truly massive size to perform the desired task.

I worry strong AI is such a task. I also worry there's a barrier somewhere in conversational computing that will stop us from achieving much past a certain threshold before the framework becomes unworkable. I often run into painful reminders that our voice assistants are just Chinese rooms when it turns out they're missing basic functionality like "take me to the McDonald's near the Walmart".

</comment><comment><USER15> Not a fan of Alexa at the moment, but I can totally picture it's going to be absolutely massive and everywhere once 5G network is launched and more IoT devices will flood the market. Amazon is pushing hard to make it more ubiquitous and it just seems inevitable. Might be a good time to learn some Alexa skills now.

<comment><USER16> I can see it now: job openings for Senior Alexa Engineer

<comment><USER17> [https://www.amazon.jobs/en/jobs/802455/senior-software- engin...](https://www.amazon.jobs/en/jobs/802455/senior-software-engineer- alexa-ai)

<comment><USER16> joke's on me.</comment></comment></comment></comment>