Adria Richards, PyCon, and How We All Lost - <AUTHOR> https://amandablumwords.wordpress.com/2013/03/21/3/ <comment><USER3> So what we know now is that Adria Richards' issues are not just with sexism, offensive behavior in general or gender equality, but that she has an ideological agenda that goes well beyond that.

Her issues with pornography are ideological, in that they aren't shared by many men and women who would take issue with sexist behavior or gender based discrimination. However, like many ideologues, _she_ doesn't make that distinction herself.

And what is also typical for ideologues, she doesn't have any issues with saying or doing things that disproportionately harm people who disagree with her, because they are "the enemy". They're not interested in change, they are interested in _winning_.

These kind of people will do more harm than good when it comes to fighting sexism in tech. They will actually alienate a lot of women.

(I do however find it inappropriate and borderline sexist to call her a prude. Being against pornography doesn't make you a prude, just like enjoying pornography doesn't make you a sexist pig.)

<comment><USER4> These kind of people will alienate a lot of men too.

"Oh no! There's a woman in this conference room! I better just shut up and not say anything just in case she takes offense at my talking about my dislike for DRM dongles. Too bad that this means we'll be shipping a DRM-encumbered product, but my job and reputation are more important to risk being fired over perceived sexist comments, even if it saves the company from financial ruin in the long run."

When every perceived slight ends up triggering thermonuclear war, people will stop interacting with each other.

<comment><USER5> While you do have a point, the hyperbole isn't helpful.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I think the most interesting part of this post was a simple observation that I, for one, hadn't seen elsewhere:

We don't know why PlayHaven fired the dev in the first place.

Sure, the controversy undoubtedly played a role. But we don't know if the dev was on the ropes, if he wasn't pulling his weight, or if his boss simply didn't like him. This may have been a gross overreaction, or it may have been the straw that broke the camel's back.

As story-driven creatures, we constantly seek to form narratives around events. As sensation-seekers, we inherently care more about emotional impact than veracity when we craft the mental stories that tie events together and give them meaning. This is not to say that we are incapable of detached, rational thought, but rather that our brains don't default to that mode.

One of my biggest personal takeaways from this sordid tale is just a reaffirmation of that fact: that even smart, rational people, who get paid to be smart and rational, will blindly abandon reason in pursuit of a good story. This incident blew up into a tabloid-like frenzy because smart people abandoned reason in favour of sensation. Moreover, this is not due to some personal flaw on their parts: it's simply how we, as human beings, are built.

If anything positive comes from this, I hope it's simply a greater recognition on the parts of all concerned of our propensity to engage in this kind of behaviour, and the mental processes that lead to it. Maybe we can be a little more measured in our appraisal of future incidents like this.

<comment><USER7> I doubt if there was any other case than the controversy. I doubt that the dev was any where incompetent. I say this simply because of the dev's interest in attending a conference and his company sponsoring it to him using forking and dongles in a sentence... those are simply good signals of a good developer and he being happy at his job. I feel that Pay Haven responded in a most defensive way by simply firing him and getting it out of their shoulders.

<comment><USER8> " him using forking and dongles in a sentence... those are simply good signals of a good developer"

Pray tell, how does a plebeian joke about dongles signal that a developer is good?

"dev's interest in attending a conference and his company sponsoring it"

And as for his presence, it's not uncommon for a company to send a key developer _and a friendly coworker_ to conferences, especially when it is far away (so he may just have been a friendly coworker of Andy Reid)

<comment><USER9> > Pray tell

I will testify, brother. ;-)

It think what the gp post was saying is that usually (in most companies) developers who are not very good or are not pulling their weight, are not sent to conferences. What is the freaking reason to send someone to a conference to learn and bring new ideas if they are about to be sent out of the door?

I don't know about friendly coworkers. Maybe other companies do that, we don't. In my experience it is not about friendliness but about who deserves to go and who is passionate about programming.

And, yeah, I agree, I don't see any correlation between him making dongle jokes or being or not being a good programmer.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Without tumbling deep into a flame war, I'd like to ask a sincere question. I have trouble understanding the sexism behind the remarks, and why the instigator needs to apologize (for sexism).

People get offended for all kinds of things, nobody can claim a monopoloy on that. (<http://imgur.com/EX5v4> stephen fry quote)

\- If they would both have been gay and talking about a homosexual topic, someone in that room would be offended.

\- If they were creationists dismissing darwin, someone would be offended

\- 2 women discussing 'shades of grey', someone would be offended.

\- A dongle and forking, and Adria is offended.

To me it seems she is offended by the sexual overtones. A pruder man might be offended by that too, or many a religious man. I just don't see the link to sexism.

I get it's lowbrow humor. It's not professional. It's probably not suited for a public event like that. The dongle joke was men comparing their 'dongles' and the suggesting they wanted to "fork" the male speaker.

How are women being put down or belittled at all here. How is it sexist?

<comment><USER11> Discussions like this seem to always come back to a sense of "fairness". It's not about being fair, but about how situations make people feel.

Majority-group members tend to brush away the sensitivities of minority-group members. If you're straight, you can walk hand-in-hand with your spouse without issue. You may even be able to embrace publicly, and kiss, hug and display all kinds of PDA. Gay couples can't do that without fear of reprisal, sometimes violently.

Minority-group members are only "safe" in certain places.

At a tech conference, women are in the minority, and so crass comments about/towards women are not perceived in a safe way. It's not your buddy making a funny joke, it's the majority-group members expressing oppression.

Whether you personally agree with that is not the point; it's how minority- group members feel.

Be aware of that.

<comment><USER12> And I've always found that self-proclaimed feminists are _always_ offended and loud about it when they are. A few I know go to the point by saying females are better and that all masculine references should be eliminated. They need to vote with their pocketbooks: don't pay for a ticket, and don't attend.

I went to a 'con recently: The Midwest RepRap festival. I heard no references to sex, sexuality, race, or anything of the sort. One sales person came around, got argumentative once we said we were not interested, and started to try to argue religion. That was perhaps, 10 minutes tops. Everybody else stayed absolutely professional about everything.

Now, the last thing I want to hear at a tech conference is another tiring sex joke. It may be funny, but that's not why I'm here.

<comment><USER13> Feminists are people who believe men and women should be treated equally. Nothing more, nothing less. Classifying fanatics as "feminists" and acting like all feminists acts that way is ... well... pretty damn stupid.

<comment><USER14> That's actually really not accurate at all. If feminism were that simple of a concept, discussing it would be a hell of a lot easier. First off you have the whole "wave" notion, where feminism has changed dramatically over time. Second, most contemporary feminists are talking less about equality and more about diversity, and the value of alternate perspectives. As for whether fanatics get to be classified as feminists or not, it sounds like a classic No True Scotsman scenario to me.

<comment><USER12> I try to avoid the no true Scotsman fallacy. If you say you are a feminist, I accept. But what I say stands: every self proclaimed feminist I've met always get offended at the stupidest things. One I know even had a diatribe towards Carlin about the "personhole cover" because of his insensitivity. The usual stance many in this category take is equality regarded in Animal Farm: they are just "More Equal"

<added> I live in Indiana, and had this haopen to me: I went into a car dealership, looking for a used car. Dealer walks up asking if I wanted to test drive or ask questions. Later on in negotiations, he went hardcore slimy. Along with that, said ,"You can trust me, I'm a good Christian."

That was enough to get me to leave on the spot. Usually people with self- proclaimed titles are to be distrusted, or t least listened to with a very critical ear. It's also similar if I run around calling myself "Ub3r Haxx0r". Most of you would justly call BS.</added>

Then, I have also met many who fight for women to be equal with men. They usually aren't much for the labels, yet will fight ferociously for the rights to be equal. Equal pay is the big one right now, considering pay parity is apart by 20%.

Best said by a friend: when a woman hits a man, and the man hits back, and nobody gasps in astonishment, we shall be equal.

<comment><USER14> Interesting how well this aligns with <http://paulgraham.com/identity.html>. You basically seem to be saying that you are more trusting of people who follow pg's advice in that essay, and I'm inclined to agree with you on that particular point.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> This is a great article from a far more neutral and informed point of view than most of us have managed (or could, given what little has actually been said by first-hand sources). Thanks to the author for treating this issue both critically and realistically, and for attempting to make a difference in SendGrid's reaction, whether it worked or not.

<comment><USER16> The link to the WordCamp XKCD comic, and Adria's reaction to it, told me more than all the rest of the comments and articles over the past day.

I perceived the comic as two women:

Allegedly offensive comic: [http://jenmylo.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/screen- shot-2011-...](http://jenmylo.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/screen- shot-2011-08-03-at-12-36-47-pm.png)

Deep link to Adria's comment: [http://jenmylo.com/2011/08/03/wcsf- shirt/comment-page-1/#com...](http://jenmylo.com/2011/08/03/wcsf- shirt/comment-page-1/#comment-326)

I would be curious to learn Adria's rationale for the presumption of gender she made. Seems as though she'd find Rorschach tests offensive too.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Amanda Blum apparently has a history of animosity with Adria Richards, while at the same time she also isn't one of those who would stick their fingers in their ears and say there isn't sexism in tech. That makes this post pretty interesting.

<comment><USER18> I think a lot of people (myself included) spoke out against Adria Richards because of her bullshit - not because she was a woman.

One can argue against what she did and not be a "mysoginist man-privelaged pig". (<\--- I've seen women write that against people who spoke against Adria Richards)

<comment><USER19> Well, some of the people arguing against her _were_ that. But definitely not all.

There were and are a lot of people who see this issue through exactly one lens: is the man right or is the woman right? They caught hold of this issue and made it part of their long battle. This issue got reposted to those various blogs and subreddits that represent those armies. (And they each monitor the other so summoning either army summons both.) I suspect that, had those armies never been involved, neither person would be fired today. Not that those armies care. The two people who got fired were acceptable casualties in their war on The Other.

Ugh, this comment turned into pop-psychology, sorry.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> Well said. The last paragraph sums it all up perfectly:

      "I imagine in an alternate future, Adria just turned around,
       smiled and whispered, "Hey.  No offense, but I'm not all that
       interested in hearing about your dongle, you know?'. The men
       would have become momentarily embarrassed, and then reflexively
       defensive before letting their rational neurons fire in that
       crowded room and say, "yeah, dude, no problem".  Maybe one of
       them would have approached Adria later in the day and pulled her
       aside to say "hey, I really didn't mean to offend you, I'm
       sorry. Hope there's no hard feelings." In this alternate future,
       at a future conference that developer quietly steers a
       conversation amongst friends away from this territory, without
       making a big deal of it."

</comment><comment><USER21> "Because of my experiences growing up, I have triggers. This means that I'm always scanning for danger; for situations that seem like something from the past that could hurt me. When I recognize something that matches, I can overreact and feel intense fear, anger or anxiety. This is something I've worked on a lot. It's much better now than 10 years ago but there are some things that send me over the edge."

[http://butyoureagirl.com/13871/success-against-the-odds- fill...](http://butyoureagirl.com/13871/success-against-the-odds-filling-my- technology-knapsack-from-scratch/)

(site is currently down, may need to view cache)

I'm surprised nobody has picked up on this yet.

<comment><USER22> I've tried to keep a pretty neutral opinion of her. It just seemed like she made a misjudgement. This is the first post (Amanda Blum post) to reasonably say something that makes me question that a bit.

Now, combine Amanda's post with this info and it's just possible that Adria hasn't suffered enough of a negative response to her past actions (and maybe even benefited from them a bit in blog traffic, etc), so she didn't really 'learn her lesson'[1] on the way she should approach these situations. Unfortunately this time the negative reaction was extreme.

[1] This doesn't imply that her reactions were malicious or self-serving. Just that there was never a reaction that caused her to question her way of responding to these things.

<comment><USER23> She is a PR person.

When the dust settles, SendGrid, PlayHaven, affected developers, women in tech as a group, and our industry as a whole will end up with some reputation damage and setbacks in the struggles on equality front.

But Adria personally will probably benefit from her newfound celebrity status in one way or another. There's no such thing as bad publicity, that's the most likely lesson to be learned [again].

<comment><USER22>
      | no such thing as bad publicity

If someone follows through with death/rape threats, I wouldn't peg that as 'good' or 'coming out on top.'

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> So Adria Richards has pulled shit like this before? Seems like she just does most of this stuff for attention... too bad she took it too far this time and bit off more than she could chew.

<comment><USER25> There is definitely a pattern recognizable from her writing style down to her topic choices and views on these things. Some of these actions also look in no small way hypocritical. However, this discussion is already so extremely loaded with such an insane amount of subtext and misplaced projections done by people who feel reminded of their own traumas, it's hugely unhelpful to launch into a character critique of Richards at this point. It's become an overloaded topic as it is.

<comment><USER26> This is exactly how rape trials used to be conducted. The victim would be put on the stand and critiqued about every single relationship she had ever had, with the defence bringing all of her skeletons out in a manner carefully calculated to seem reasonable, fair, and balanced.

I'm fifty. I could put together two blog posts about myself, one of which would make me seem like a saint, the other a demon, and both would be factually correct. Which one you read right after I got into some hot water could seriously skew your feelings about my role in events.

<comment><USER25> This line of rhetorics is _exactly_ the reason why I said that a character critique is unhelpful here, so I'm not sure what your point is but I'm choosing to interpret this as agreeing with me. ;)

<comment><USER26> That's how I interpret my remarks too :-)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> Good article.

I agree there is rampant sexism in tech, and in society in general. I've seen it, lots. I'm not convinced a couple of guys chuckling at "Big Dongles" is sexism, though it is inappropriate for a professional event.

But now we get the picture of Adria Richards and it does seem to be one of someone looking out for ways to be offended and publicise herself with them.

And then there's the DDoS and the threats. Utterly un-fucking-acceptable.

There's not really anyone that comes out of this looking good.

<comment><USER28> > There's not really anyone that comes out of this looking good.

In my opinion, the PyCon organisers handled things well. They acted on the complaint, explained to the jokers why it was inappropriate, got an apology, and left it there, without publishing names.

Unfortunately for them, popular perception of PyCon is probably somewhat tainted by this whole messy incident anyway.

<comment><USER27> Yes, actually, of all the actors in this weird online play they did seem to behave reasonably and decently throughout.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> I am just gobsmacked...I can't believe I just read something so thoughtful and well-reasoned...this whole thing should end with this article marked "End Of Thread".

<comment><USER30> Very much agreed. Whether or not I agree with it, it's very nuanced and avoids the kind of "laying blame for the purpose of laying blame"-type of argument that has dominated any discussion of this absurd series of events.

This is a great article with which to start a discussion, not end one. Hopefully the tolerance for less nuanced and more reactionary discussion will abate. I wouldn't put money on it, but I can hope.

<comment><USER29> I would say it's worth reading even completely outside of this whole circus; "Assume people will be reasonable until they are not." is very wise.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> Respectably, I disagree with the OP on this entire subject. Yes, the Adria scandal was not constructive to any party involved - but the way it's being analyzed is dead wrong:

 _When women in this industry are hurt, we're all hurt._

No. No. It's _exactly_ this kind of thinking that got us here in the first place. It's this kind of thinking that perpetuates the very dissonance inherent in stereotypes. There is _so much_ anti-racism/anti-sexism/anti- everything-slightly-inappropriate recently that some days I don't want to get out of bed. I _don't want_ to watch what I say at every turn. I don't want to limit my vocabulary when there are so few English words in the first place. I don't want to change what I find funny because society has all of a sudden deemed it possibly inappropriate under certain situations. So what's the solution?

People need to start recognizing others as individuals--people need to start recognizing _themselves_ as individuals. I'll admit it: I make inappropriate jokes _all_ the time around my friends: every sort of inappropriate joke you can imagine. Why? Because the whole concept of shock humor is poking at things that are obviously not true. Why would people laugh if women actually were bad drivers (I am a terrible driver)? Why would they laugh if Asians could actually all do backflips (I broke a finger trying). If forking someone's repo was _actually_ sexual, why would it be funny? "I'm going to fuck her" surely isn't funny.

The moment we all recognize that people are individuals, and not just subsets of classes, is the moment where all this ridiculousness will go away. Thinking that a blow to one woman hurts _all women_ is as ridiculous as thinking a blow to one Asian hurts all Asians - or a blow to one person in tech who has large muscles is a blow to all people in tech who have large muscles. The association is ridiculous.

I don't know any women in tech. I know people in tech, and some of them just happen to be women.

</comment><comment><USER32> You guys realize, all this shit (all if it, Adria, the "post-mortem" blog posts, etc), is just a land grab for page views right?

[http://www.amazon.com/Trust-Me-Lying-Confessions- Manipulator...](http://www.amazon.com/Trust-Me-Lying-Confessions- Manipulator/dp/159184553X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1363902289&sr=8-1&keywords=trust+me+im+lying)

<comment><USER33> Wait, you're saying Adria traded her job for a few page views and death threats?

<comment><USER32> Do I think that was her intention? No, I think that part spiraled out of control. Do I think this spawned from a PR person looking for the page views? Yes.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> > Trolls aside, if you don't believe there is misogyny in the tech world, this > will absolve you of that belief. There was little reasonable chatter, > instead she was attacked not as a person or developer but as a female- a > bitch.

For what it's worth, I've seen and partaken of a great deal of reasonable chatter here on HN. I don't doubt a fair amount of "unreasonable" chatter has taken place elsewhere, but for the life of me I can't find a single example of it coming from any person that could be said to be reasonably representative of the community as a whole.

I mean, if all it took was one penis joke for one man to be fired, one would think that there would be industry-wide layoffs every time one of these incidents occur.

</comment><comment><USER18> After reading this article, it really has painted a picture that this person really does belong in the extreme feminist camp. She would fit right in at /r/shitredditsays.

</comment><comment><USER35> This was a great post. And I think it does a pretty good job at illustrating the absurdity of the situation: one sex joke and three people are out of a job, with one potentially unemployable in the same capacity.

Now, guys will feel compelled to check themselves every time they are in public. When being victim of actual harassment, girls will think twice about denouncing it.

And the worst part is that all the actually sexist guys will be able to point to this incident as a justification for why sexism in the tech industry is "not a problem".

Thanks, Adria. Thanks, Internet. You all did a terrific job.

</comment><comment><USER36> Some of the reactions to her have really gotten way out of hand. Seriously.

I was just browsing through her YouTube account and it's now spammed with tons of overtly racial and sexist slurs against her. These aren't "dongle" jokes. They're the real deal.

This is really just a tragedy. Adria Richards is not the only one who is showing her sensitive, human side here. I think she made a mistake, a big one, and I agree with the decision of SendGrid. But, oddly enough, I think some of the reactions are showing that maybe she was right all along. Her example of sexism and racism in the developer community was a terrible one, but ironically it has led to lots of legitimate examples.

</comment><comment><USER37> Two people fired. Wow. what happened to just saying sorry to each other and accepting it?

<comment><USER38> Nah. That would be to logical a conclusion.

<comment><USER39> Exactly. If I've learned anything from my time using templating libraries, it's that logic-less is the answer!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> Extremists play a role. Where do you draw the line on sexualisation at a tech conference? Perhaps we need unpopular people like Adria to create debate on what is acceptable and what isn't. I don't always agree with RMS but I think the world is a better place for having him around influencing opinion one way or another. At least these people aren't flying planes into buildings though shaming people with photos is clearly heading towards the dark side. The bigger issue is the unfair dismissals that resulted.

<comment><USER8> "Where do you draw the line on sexualisation at a tech conference?"

I hope that this discussion helps us get closer to a good answer to that question.

<comment><USER41> For example, take this pic from LinuxCon last year: <http://www.flickr.com/photos/bitmason/7987595846/> (To be clear, I took this pic because I found it funny, not offensive. I suspect some might find it offensive.)

<comment><USER8> I don't understand that ad TBH. If they are trying to get males to purchase tee-shirts, wouldnt you want to show a male wearing the tee-shirt? I understand the idea of selling for sexuality, but most retail companies advertise men's clothes with men.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> There's a lesson to be learned here, that a gender war leads nowhere. While sensational, this event has little substance. It's all about conferences (shows) and appearances. None of the two was fired because of their work. There's barely anything useful that can be taken away from this story and added to a company's moral code. The real gender issues have little to do with these high profile tech soap operas.

</comment><comment><USER43> This is the most intelligently written and most insightful article on this topic, and I hope we can close the entire thing up and move on.

</comment><comment><USER44> If your job is evangelism and you get to the point where you are claiming in a tweet that your employer "supports" you there is a real risk that you are asking them to evangelise you rather than the other way round and then your position is likely to be precarious.

When you are employed, particularly in a PR or role or any other where you speak for your employer your speech is not fully free. Even when in your own time on private accounts if you claim views and opinions as your own rather than your employer's it can still have an impact. Anonymity is valuable if you have something that you want to say without bringing your employer into the issue.

This is not to deny that there may be sexism or that it may be right to publicly stand against it but when in controversial territory speak for yourself and let PR or the CEO back you publicly if they want to and do consider the affect on ability to fulfil role and then balance the need to make a societal impact against that (or quit and speak freely).

</comment><comment><USER8> I for one am very glad that this happened. It's unfortunate that two people were fired, but I haven't seen such fervent discussion of gender issues, social media, and social norms in a very long time.

</comment><comment><USER45> That this kind of blog post is a response to the situation is a small glimmer of how eventually we can all 'win' from this.

</comment><comment><USER46> I didn't even know "money shot" has a porn meaning until reading this article. I thought it's something to do with dice games or marksmanship or something. You learn something new every day.

As for the matter of the loss, I think the article is spot on. I personally would be horrified if I learned that somebody who made a silly joke I didn't like lost his/her job when if I just handled it a bit differently everything could be fine and nobody would be hurt. Now two people are out of jobs and amount of misery and bad feelings in the tech world is clearly increasing. And that's in open source where the thing that brings people together supposed to be helping each other and making the world better together. Everybody lost here, big time.

</comment><comment><USER47> I'm interested in a different aspect here than the discussion of sexism and who fired whom at this point. If you're running a blog as a public evangelist for a company, and twitter is part of that public presence, and you emit a tweet which includes a picture of people and criticism of them without their permission, surely this constitutes a violation of commercial use-of-likeness laws in most states, doesn't it?

</comment><comment><USER48> Aside from the personal stuff between her and Adria, I think she has a good grasp of the situation. (i.e. I agree with her) However, I find one thing troubling:

 _> Adria reinforced the idea of us as threats to men, as unreasonable, as hard to work with… as bitches._

(From here addressed to Amanda, should she be unlucky enough to stumble upon this thread) I don't believe you should be worrying about whether what you do reinforces someone else's preconceived notion of your gender. Do you really think someone who already sees women as uppity b-tches would suddenly change their tone just because you don't adhere to their stereotype? No, they're going to write you off as an exception. "No no, you're not like _them!_ You're one of the _good ones!_ " But as soon as you do something they don't like? "What a fucking b-tch. This just proves women don't belong in tech. etc etc"

However, I'm a guy. I don't really have the right to tell you how you should think about your own oppression, much like how no one has the right to tell Adria how she should have handled calling those two guys out— aside from doing something illegal, which posting a photo on Twitter most certainly is not.

I guess what I'm saying is that I agree everyone lost, but one person lost a hell of a lot more than anyone else. That guy whose name we still don't know? He's gotten job offers. Play Haven, the place that actually fired him? Unscathed. Adria? _Constant_ harassment, rape and death threats, and now presumably fired from her job while her former employer is being DDoS'd. All because she posted a picture of some guys on Twitter.

Think about that the next time a thread comes up about the sexism women face in the programming community. You can't write it off as a bunch of trolls this time, because a lot of the backlash was directly from HN.

<comment><USER49> First of all, I want to say that in absolutely no way are the rape/death threats in any way acceptable or excusable. There are lots of ways to criticize someone without threatening physical violence. Shame on anyone who chooses that route.

That said, I don't think that Adria is making off worse here because she's a woman, or because of inherent sexism in the community - she's making off worse because she was the aggressor, and because she decided to pick a fight and decided to go all-in on it. She's a bully, and if there's anything that the nerdosphere hates with a burning passion, it's a bully.

The guy she photographed privately apologized and then publicly published an apology _defending Adria_. He's done his make-good on this. Adria, on the other hand, has apparently determined she's going down with this ship, and is riding it all the way to the bottom. If she's not willing to compromise and is instead determined to be a martyr, it's difficult to dredge up sympathy that she's getting a harder bargain than the guy she decided to pick on.

<comment><USER48> Like I said in another reply, and like the author of this submission said in her post, many of the threats and harassing statements were very much specific to her gender (and some of her race.) Why is it that when a woman does something wrong, the hacker/tech community's first reaction is to throw around gendered slurs? Don't give me this crap about how every other community does it. That's not an excuse. We have to start somewhere, and we should be better than this, but we're not.

WRT her not apologizing for posting his photograph: What do you think would happen if she did? She's been fired, she's been threatened with rape and with death, she's been harassed on a constant basis since this began. Do you think her apology will have any effect? Look at how her (rather benign and polite) comment was received: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5399047> Scroll down and look at all those dead comments. Do you think her coming out now and saying, "I'm so sorry for publishing your photograph" would do anything?

I'd like to add, where is the lynch mob against these guys that their photograph was supposed to cause? I see a lot of people saying "you're publicly shaming them!" and "you tried to get a witch hunt going!" but... there wasn't one. She was just posting their photograph, and nothing in the public sphere happened to them. Only one guy was fired, and no one knew about that until he went and made an account on HN himself and said it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER50> This is, by far, one of the bests posts I've seen about the Adria situation, because it isn't entirely biased to one side. Amanda (the post author) notes that "[nobody] won," which is the signifying action as to why this is so important. Adria was threatened and hated upon over an overreaction. While she definitely didn't do the right thing initially, the best move would have been to mitigate damage, both from Play Haven & SendGrid. If both companies had apologized, they would both be better off for it, and it wouldn't have resulted in any DDoSing or threats. I'm disappointed at all of the reactions attacking Adria, because they're the exact thing she was trying to prevent in the first place (sexism, hatred), because it wasn't constructive. It does nothing but burn bridges, and undermines the original problem (the dev being fired) in the first place. If the community instead rallied around the dev & asked him to get reinstated, rather than attacked Adria, it would have ended differently.

</comment><comment><USER51> This conversation took place between the two guys. Why the hell does she have the right to be offended on a conversation he overheard? And further, what gives her the right to take pictures of people without telling them anything. You can't even argue the public place rule, because the the guys would be able to talk about whatever they want. If she really was offended, and not in it for personal gain, pseudo-women's rights, and just plain selfishness then she would just go to the conference organizers and told them about the incident. But she decides to be a huge hypocrite, post his picture on Twitter and get attention to herself. She succeeded, but it never turned out the way that she thought it would be. I am pro women's rights, but this isn't an argument of sexism, this is a hypocritical narcissistic feminazi who wants the center of attention. The guy who got fired didn't deserve it, while she really did. She doesn't deserve the attention she is getting.

</comment><comment><USER52> I know many other communities and industries these actions Adra did would made her banned (forever) for much less things.

</comment><comment><USER53> I honestly believe we had no social tool to soothe the viral effects of this story. Without a downvote or obscure button in twitter, hacker news, facebook, reddit, the only thing you can do is promote. In this case, the agents of sensationalism completely swept the story out of the publics hands, and we're left with remorse at an unfortunate incident that was made way worse though the internet.

both parties have had time to inspect their actions, both appear to be sorry, i believe that adria owes the developer an apology for an internet level attack - because thats what it is. she does not owe an apology for objecting to the comment and mr hank has made it clear he's seen his error.

i hope we all learn from this, and move on. our profession might be younger than most white collared professions, but have to be better than this, we all have to be.

</comment><comment><USER54> One thing I will say though, ironically, is that this may be actually a good experience for the million or so male and female technology people reading about this.

If programming teaches anything, it's that common sense is not something that actually comes easily. The better term perhaps is 'good sense'. And with changing environments, it's easy to lose sight of what is good sense, in different situations. Anyway, if the net result will be that a lot of people will be talking to people first if they have issues, and being more careful about their conversations, and more sensitive generally, then there might actually be a kind of hidden, but great, good outcome to it all.

</comment><comment><USER55> "But at the Boston conference, great strides were made to have a strong female presence. Almost 40% of attendees at Boston were female, almost 40% of speakers (at the time these numbers were VERY high),"

That's not gender equality though, that's positive discrimination. I think conferences should try to get the best speakers available regardless of their gender.

"She didn't get the developer in question fired"

She is clearly partly responsive for the company's reaction to the "incident".

"How it Could Have Gone"

The best alternative future is of course clear: act like an adult in a conference. If you think an overheard joke about "dongles" is not to your liking, then too bad. It's rude trying to control other people.

</comment><comment><USER56> The internet is a weird place. I will never understand why Adria did what she did, from all i read she is an intelligent person yet she chose to do the most childish thing in the world... tattle the kid that said "penis" in class. I'm not saying that what the kid is wrong, but don't tattle on him flat-out... just tell him to stop before you go to the teacher and the whole class finds out and the kid gets expelled. But then, the whole class got mad at her. With reason, or not. It do... But the point is that this feels like kindergarden. JUST BE NICE TO EACH OTHERS. DON'T BE PENISES.

</comment><comment><USER57> I think nor Adria or PlayHeaven should use Github anymore <http://shop.github.com/products/fork-you-shirt-mens-medium>

</comment><comment><USER58> "In attempting to unveil casual misogyny in the tech field, Adria has accidentally revealed the actual misogyny that lies in our industry, and there's nothing casual about it."

<comment><USER59> I think even "casual misogyny" is hyperbole, given the original comment that sparked this whole mess. I think the worst you can say about it is that it was crude and unprofessional.

The hateful aftermath, though, clearly should not be tolerated.

</comment></comment><comment><USER60> I said it once and will say again: these off color jokes between _some_ males tend not to happen when there's not a woman in earshot.

So, yes, I suspect strongly there was a good reason for Adria Richards to be offended.

The firing by her company and the reaction of the community just left me speechless. Just plain sad. Why the dev in question needed to be fired is also questionable to me.

Ashamed to belong to this crowd. Unfortunately.

</comment><comment><USER61> Or perhaps... in fact...in the end... we all won?!

The situation resolved itself in a way that demonstrated that the community is tolerant of political correctness slip ups, and intolerant of those that blow them up out of proportion. But please, y'all... don't take it as a license to make puerile jokes. A little bit of extra sensitivity may be appropriate for a while.

</comment><comment><USER62> What I'm not seeing is the amount of flack that Playhaven got from Ms Richard's supporters. I suspect that it was contacted heavily [if the reactions from the SendMail site are any indication].

</comment><comment><USER63> This is by far the best post I read about this whole sordid affair. As suspected, Richards, did indeed exhibit this pattern of overreacting before. The balance of this article was amazing!

</comment><comment><USER64> We got an unstable, hypocritical, oversensitive jaded person out of our way. I think this was a win.

I feel sorry for mr-hank though, I hope he does better than a shitty startup like Play Haven.

</comment><comment><USER65> I didn't see this drama. I usually try to avoid the dramas, but, wow she took their pictures and posted them on Twitter? She thinks of herself as 'being a hero'?

What a cowardly overreaction.

</comment><comment> mkr-hn This is the most level-headed thing I've seen on the situation.

</comment><comment><USER66> Mentioned this to my 80 year old grandmother, who has a PhD in Aerospace, said the inability to work problems out by talking was a common stereotype for women.

</comment><comment><USER67> All I know is that as a python developer I'm fairly disgusted by what happened. My son is 7 and this is the sort of thing that happen in second grade.

</comment><comment><USER68> Some people are just surrounded by constant drama...mostly drama created out of thin air. Its a useful trait to have if your surname is "Kardashian".

</comment><comment><USER69> This is a truly well-written piece. Props to Amanda.

</comment><comment> jack-r-abbit > _There's a gentleman's code for privacy_

Wait... what? is that sexist? or ironic? I can't tell anymore these days. Should I be offended by that?

</comment><comment><USER70> So twitter has nothing in this as people create anonymous accounts and threaten users with rape?

</comment><comment><USER71> ForkingDongleClub.com is available for purchase as a domain name, at the time of this writing.

</comment><comment><USER72> At the end of the day, they both did it to themselves and they only have themselves to blame.

</comment><comment><USER73> "No one has the right to spend their life without being offended." - <USER2> Pullman

</comment><comment><USER74> Now I don't wanna play cards against humanity with any of my co-workers ever...

</comment><comment><USER75> "[...] talk to eachother. Assume people are reasonable until they are not."

As simple as that.

</comment><comment><USER76> Exactly the article I was contemplating writing. Thank you!

</comment><comment><USER77> A very thoughtful article on a very horrible mess.

</comment><comment><USER78> This is so accurate. Let us mourn.

</comment><comment><USER79> Let's simplify the rules to basic decency. Don't Be a Dick. Oh wait, I guess I can't say that now. Well, fuck me. Whoops, can't say that either.

I hope mr-hank gets a huge severance out of PlayHaven. (At-will employment is not as simple as employers like to say it is.) At this point, he has position for something substantial, given that they discussed the termination in the public (disclosing an opinion that he is guilty) when he is a non-public employee. He should not just focus on termination (long odds) but also defamation of character and, unless they give the best of references, tortious interference. He ought to play hardball. Oh, whoops. Not sure I can say that either.

This nonsense about "offensive jokes" is ridiculous and distracts people away from the real sexism. I think we should care more about women earning 77 cents on the dollar and having an unfairly hard time recovering their career progress after maternity than about an occasional _dongle joke_. There are real problems and whatever Adria just tripped on is not one of them.

<comment><USER80> Agreed. Even though I'm sure Adria has been putting up with tons of real sexism over the years in the tech industry, and that this may have been the figurative straw on the camel's back, this is definitely the wrong thing to focus on. Sex jokes are definitely not necessarily sexist. These guys were perhaps a little crude, and their puns maybe horrible, but they were essentially harmless and at worst, just annoying.

What we should focus on is the terrible response from the tech community towards Adria. There is horrifying sexism in the comments that have been posted over the past 24 hours, and it just brings to light the pervasive sexism in our industry. Let's focus on that and denigrate those comments, not some random crude comments a couple guys said in private.

<comment><USER45> Not puns - just one pun.

The repo forking was, though informal, a thoroughly unpurient and non-sexual comment that she read meaning into.

<comment><USER80> She's allowed to be offended with those comments (or single pun), but the method of communicating her offense was definitely not called for.

And honestly, even if it were sexual, it isn't sexist. I think that's a distinction that certainly needs to be made. Calling Adria a c*nt and other horrible things online definitely is sexist though.

<comment><USER81> Is insulting a female inherently sexist? I wouldn't call someone a sexist if they called me a d _ck or a son of a b_ tch. Obviously the response here is sexist, but calling somebody bad names is not sexist, regardless of their gender.

<comment><USER45> IMHO, sexualized epithets are sexual.

It's more productive not to muddy the waters though: it's not like there are only a handful of ways to insult someone.

<comment><USER81> I don't know. Some words are just attached to each sex, and that's just a part of language. We don't say waitperson over waiter or waitress. Something that is both attached to a gender and insulting is by no means insulting someone for their gender or insulting a gender overall.

English is definitely one of the least sexualizing languages of the Romance Languages. In French or Spanish, everything would be attached to a gender, but that doesn't mean that the words define the gender themselves. Nobody in Spain thinks that chairs are 'where women belong' or anything like that.

<comment><USER82> Well, no, we say server, because server is gender-neutral. Compare steward/stewardess with flight attendant. And some servers will get mighty angry if you call them a waitress.

I don't necessarily think that response is justified when no offense is actually meant. But the point is that there has been an identifiable trend in our language towards moving away from gender-specific terms for roles that shouldn't otherwise have a relevance to gender.

I'd argue this movement is overdue for epithets. I think "asshole," "asshat," "assclown," really anything in the venerable ass family, makes for an ideal gender-neutral epithet. We should use these more often!

Edit: typo

<comment><USER83> That's always seemed an odd quirk of the restaurant industry to me. _Server_ to refer to a person sounds stilted to my ear; a server is a computer to me, but a waiter or a waitress is a person.

So a sincere question: _Why_ would someone be offended to be described as a waitress?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER84> For the life of me I cannot fathom why PlayHaven went to the extreme step of firing the dev in question.

What he did was certainly wrong, but certainly not a firable offense. A stern warning from HR would've sufficed.

Also, I don't understand the hate and DDoS directed towards SendGrid. I think if any, PlayHaven should've been subject of it and pressured to reinstate the dev in question.

SendGrid should've been pressured to warn her, not fire her like it happened.

We commit mistakes every once in a while, and losing your job is a big punishment. It's like getting your car seized by the government for speeding 10% over the speed limit.

Unfortunately the outcome is that a message is sent that DDoS works to get people that the internet mob doesn't like fired, and that a part of the male tech community is wielding that power.

What if parts of the female tech community retaliate with a DDoS against SendGrid now?

Looks like the male privilege extends to having the resources to perform DDoS.

<comment><USER85> _For the life of me cannot fathom why PlayHaven went to the extreme step of firing the dev in question._

They had 2 devs involved that incident. One they fired. One they publicly said was a valued employee.

We will never know why they did what they did, why those devs were treated differently, and whether they had cause for their action. I personally find it hard to believe that this event would be enough cause by itself for a reasonable employer to fire an employee in good standing. Which means that some combination of these three are wrong: my belief, the claim that the employer is reasonable, the claim that the employee was in good standing.

Guess whatever combination you want - we are unlikely to ever know the truth. (Though your comment is perfectly in line with my belief.)

<comment><USER17> But it's a terrible tactical move.

They fired one dev out of two, presumably as a value proposition: this was just the one thing to break the camel's back. Which is reasonable, but the issue is that it looks like they fired him entirely for the comment, which obviously has the potential to create a PR fiasco. Lo and behold...

<comment><USER86> Perhaps the one that was fired was on probation or already on a performance plan for other issues. This may have been the "not gonna work here" moment.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER87> Do you people realize that women, when between women, can be just as gross as men? They talk about guys as "food" and "expendable" things. They really do. Also they typically give way more details about their sexual life to their women friends than man do to their men friends.

The difference is that in the coding world it's something like 90% men. So of course you won't have enough women "teaming up" to make gravvy jokes about men's short appendages or whatever.

What about we stop it?

I was playing tennis with a friend the other day: two men. On the court next to our were four women. My friend was making a few jokes during pauses and being "gross". I can tell you that the four women were doing exactly the same: you can't hear it but they look at you and laugh and you know they're talking about you as meat they're going to eat or something. Because that's what women do when they look at men and laugh between them. Just ask them ffs. They can be _really_ gross too.

Now I try not to make these jokes and sexual remarks: not because somehow I'd try not to offend the other person (honestly women can laugh as much as they want when talking about me, I don't give a frak). No, the reason I don't do this is because I've got a girlfriend and I don't want to be disrespectful to her by making sexual jokes about "wanting to fork other women's little hidden repo" or something.

It would be great if people stopped doing these lame remarks but it would be great too if women stopped playing 16 years old virgins who are never saying anything gravvy about men when between them.

</comment><comment><USER88> Hey, sex jokes are not always about women. Big dongles and forking could totally describe male-male sex! Also, why get so upset about sex jokes? Is there something wrong with sex? You wouldn't even be here without it!

I think that people who complain or argue quickly have some unresolved problem. I think this because I am one of those people and I KNOW that I have unresolved mento-emotional issues :) I know that I should be cool and appear to be agreeable all the time, but sometimes (more frequently, mornings or certain topics) it's very challenging. The payoff is so much better than bickering though.

The important thing is to realize you're being a righteous asshole. Then you can start changing.

</comment><comment><USER89> All I saw was some smart ass jack asses getting busted since everyone has a camera nowadays. Get used to everyone having cameras to capture your jackass behavior.

Funny that these trolls are so defensive after they got busted and photographed. They can dish it out, but they sure can't take it.</comment>


Winning A/B results were not translating into improved user acquisition - <AUTHOR> http://blog.sumall.com/journal/optimizely-got-me-fired.html <comment><USER2> The red flag here for me was that Optimizely encourages you to stop the test as soon as it "reaches significance." You shouldn't do that. What you should do is precalculate a sample size based on the statistical power you need, which involves determining your tolerance for the probability of making an error and on the minimum effect size you need to detect. Then, you run the test to completion and crunch the numbers afterward. This helps prevent the scenario where your page tests 18% better than itself by minimizing probability that your "results" are just a consequence of a streak of positive results in one branch of the test.

I was also disturbed that the effect size was taken into account in the sample size selection. You need to know this before you do any type of statistical test. Otherwise, you are likely to get "positive" results that just don't mean anything.

OTOH, I wasn't too concerned that the test was a one-tailed test. Honestly, in a website A/B test, all I really am concerned about is whether my new page is better than the old page. A one-tailed test tells you that. It might be interesting to run two-tailed tests just so you can get an idea what not to do, but for this use I think a one-tailed test is fine. It's not like you're testing drugs, where finding any effect, either positive or negative, can be valuable.

I should also note that I only really know enough about statistics to not shoot myself in the foot in a big, obvious way. You should get a real stats person to work on this stuff if your livelihood depends on it.

<comment><USER3> Hi pmiller, Dan from Optimizely here. Thanks for your thoughtful response. This is a really important issue for us, so I wanted to set the record straight on a couple of points:

#1 - "Optimizely encourages you to stop the test as soon as it reaches 'statistical significance.'" - This actually isn't true. We recommend you calculate your sample size before you start your test using a statistical significance calculator and waiting until you reach that sample size before stopping your test. We wrote a detailed article about how long to run a test, here: [https://help.optimizely.com/hc/en- us/articles/200133789-How-...](https://help.optimizely.com/hc/en- us/articles/200133789-How-long-to-run-a-test)

We also have a sample size calculator you can use, here: [https://www.optimizely.com/resources/sample-size- calculator](https://www.optimizely.com/resources/sample-size-calculator)

#2 - Optimizely uses a one-tailed test, rather than a 2-tailed test. - This is a point the article makes and it came up in our customer community a few weeks ago. One of our statisticians wrote a detailed reply, and here's the TL;DR:

\- Optimizely actually uses two 1-tailed tests, not one.

\- There is no mathematical difference between a 2-tailed test at 95% confidence and two 1-tailed tests at 97.5% confidence.

\- There is a difference in the way you describe error, and we believe we define error in a way that is most natural within the context of A/B testing.

\- You can achieve the same result as a 2-tailed test at 95% confidence in Optimizely by requiring the Chance to Beat Baseline to exceed 97.5%.

\- We're working on some exciting enhancements to our methodologies to make results even easier to interpret and more meaningfully actionable for those with no formal Statistics background. Stay tuned!

Here's the full response if you're interested in reading more: [http://community.optimizely.com/t5/Strategy-Culture/Let-s- ta...](http://community.optimizely.com/t5/Strategy-Culture/Let-s-talk-about- Single-Tailed-vs-Double-Tailed/m-p/4278#M114)

Overall I think it's great that we're having this conversation in a public forum because it draws attention to the fact that statistics matter in interpreting test results accurately. All too often, I see people running A/B tests without thinking about how to ensure their results are statistically valid.

Dan

<comment><USER2> Thanks for replying. I agree with all the points you mention your statistician covered, but you should make sure your users know what kind of test you're using. The only reason I say this is because this article gives me the impression that you were using a single one-tailed test (which, as I said in my post, is a perfectly acceptable thing to do in the context of web site A/B testing).

But, as far as "Optimezely encourages you to stop the test as soon as it reaches 'statistical significance,'" I'm not saying your user documentation or anything encourages people to stop tests early. I'm saying (and this is based only on the article as I've never used Optimizely) that your platform is psychologically encouraging users to stop tests early. E.g. from the article:

        Most A/B testing tools recommend terminating tests as soon as they show significance, even though that significance may very well be due to short-term bias. A little green indicator will pop up, as it does in Optimizely, and the marketer will turn the test off.

        <image with a green check mark saying "Variation 1 is beating Variation 2 by 18.1%">

        But most tests should run longer and in many cases it's likely that the results would be less impressive if they did. Again, this is a great example of the default settings in these platforms being used to increase excitement and keep the users coming back for more.

I am aware of literature in experimental design that talks about criteria for stopping an experiment before its designed conclusion. Such things are useful in, say, medical research, where if you see a very strong positive or negative result early on, you want to have that safety valve to either get the drug/treatment to market more quickly or to avoid hurting people unnecessarily.

Unless you've built that analysis into when you display your "success message" that "Variation 1 is beating Variation 2 by 18.1%," I'd argue that you're doing users a disservice. When I see that message, I want to celebrate, declare victory, and stop the test; and that's not what you should encourage people to do unless it's statistically sound to do so.

The other thing in the article that lead me to this position is that you display "conversion rate over time" as a time series graph. Again, if I see that and I notice one variation is outperforming the other, what I want to do is declare victory and stop the test. That might not be mathematically/statistically warranted.

IMO, as a provider of statistical software, I think you'd do your users a service to not display anything about a running experiment by default until it's either finished or you can mathematically say it's safe to stop the trial. Some people will want their pretty graphs and such, so give them a way to see them, but make them expend some effort to do so. Same thing with prematurely ended experiments; don't provide any conclusions based on an incomplete trial. Give users the ability to download the raw data from a prematurely ended experiment, but don't make it easy or the default.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Note on SumAll

All users who use SumAll should be wary of their service. We tried them out and we then found out that they used our social media accounts to spam our followers and users with their advertising. We contacted them asking for answers and we never heard from them. Our suggestion: Avoid SumAll.

<comment><USER5> Hey Antr, Jacob from SumAll here. Sorry to hear you had a bad experience with us. The tweets you're talking about that "spam" your accounts were most likely the performance tweets that you are free to toggle on and off. Here's how you can do that: [https://support.sumall.com/customer/portal/articles/1378662-...](https://support.sumall.com/customer/portal/articles/1378662-disable- performance-or-thank-you-tweet)

Best, Jacob

<comment><USER6> As the tweets contain both SumAll-related hash tags and Links to SumAll, this is definitely marketing that should be opt-in, not opt-out. Unless the user of your service is explicitly made aware of these automated tweets in clear terms when they sign up, this is a bit shady and dishonest to say the least.

<comment><USER7> Even if it's in the terms - do it opt-in.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> This article comes off as a bit boastful and somewhat of an advertisement for the company...

"What threw a wrench into the works was that SumAll isn't your typical company. We're a group of incredibly technical people, with many data analysts and statisticians on staff. We have to be, as our company specializes in aggregating and analyzing business data. Flashy, impressive numbers aren't enough to convince us that the lifts we were seeing were real unless we examined them under the cold, hard light of our key business metrics."

I was expecting some admission of how their business is actually different/unusual, not just "incredibly technical". Secondly, I was expecting to hear that these "technical" people monkeyed with the A/B testing (or simply over-thought it) which got them in to trouble .. but no, just a statement about how "flashy" numbers don't appeal to them.

I think the article would be much better without some of that background.

<comment><USER9> They are incredible as in literally not credible.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> >We decided to test two identical versions of our homepage against each other... we saw that the new variation, which was identical to the first, saw an 18.1% improvement. Even more troubling was that there was a "100%" probability of this result being accurate.

Wow. Cool explanation of one-tailed, two tailed tests. Somehow I have never run across that. Here's a link with more detail (I think it's the one intended in the article, but a different one was used): [http://www.ats.ucla.edu/stat/mult_pkg/faq/general/tail_tests...](http://www.ats.ucla.edu/stat/mult_pkg/faq/general/tail_tests.htm)

</comment><comment><USER11> Oh great, another misuse of A/B testing

Here's the thing, stop A/Bing every little thing (and/or "just because") and you'll get more significant results.

Do you think the true success of something is due to A/B testing? A/B testing is optimizing, not archtecting.

<comment><USER12> Indeed. A/B testing will get you stuck on local optimums.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> It seems like I see these articles pop up on a regular basis over at Inbound or GrowthHackers.

I think the problem is two-sided: one on the part of the tester and one on the part of the tools. The tools "statistically significant" winners MUST be taken with a grain of salt.

On the user side, you simply cannot trust the tools. To avoid these pitfalls, I'd recommend a few key things. One, know your conversion rates. If you're new to a site and don't know patterns, run A/A tests, run small A/B tests, dig into your analytics. Before you run a serious A/B test, you'd better know historical conversion rates and recent conversion rates. If you know your variances, it's even better, but you could probably heuristically understand your rate fluctuations just by looking at analytics and doing A/A test. Two, run your tests for long after you get a "winning" result. Three, have the traffic. If you don't have enough traffic, your ability to run A/B tests is greatly reduced and you become more prone to making mistakes because you're probably an ambitious person and want to keep making improvements! The nice thing here is that if you don't have enough traffic to run tests, you're probably better off doing other stuff anyway.

On the tools side (and I speak from using VWO, not Optimizely, so things could be different), but VWO tags are on all my pages. VWO knows what my goals are. Even if I'm not running active tests on pages, why can't they collect data anyway and get a better idea of what my typical conversion rates are? That way, that data can be included and considered before they tell me I have a "winner". Maybe this is nitpicky, but I keep seeing people who are actively involved in A/B testing write articles like this, and I have to think the tools could do a better job in not steering intermediate-level users down the wrong path, let alone novice users.

</comment><comment><USER14> What he did in that article is more commonly known as an "A/A test"

Optimizely actually has a decent article on it: [https://help.optimizely.com/hc/en- us/articles/200040355-Run-...](https://help.optimizely.com/hc/en- us/articles/200040355-Run-and-interpret-an-A-A-test)

</comment><comment><USER15> I just checked in one possible R calculation of two-sided significance under a binomial model under the simple null hypothesis A and B have the same common rate (and that that rate is exactly what was observed, a simplifying assumption) here [http://winvector.github.io/rateTest/rateTestExample.html](http://winvector.github.io/rateTest/rateTestExample.html) . The long and short is you get slightly different significances under what model you assume, but in all cases you should consider it easy to calculate an exact significance subject to your assumptions. In this case it says differences this large would only be seen in about 1.8% to 2% of the time (a two-sided test). So the result isn't that likely under the null-hypothesis (and then you make a leap of faith that maybe the rates are different). I've written a lot of these topics at the Win-Vector blog [http://www.win- vector.com/blog/2014/05/a-clear-picture-of-po...](http://www.win- vector.com/blog/2014/05/a-clear-picture-of-power-and-significance-in-ab- tests/) .

They said they ran an A/A test (a very good idea), but the numbers seem slightly implausible under the two tests are identical assumption (which again, doesn't immediately imply the two tests are in fact different).

The important thing to remember is your exact significances/probabilities are a function of the unknown true rates, your data, and your modeling assumptions. The usual advice is to control the undesirable dependence on modeling assumptions by using only "brand name tests." I actually prefer using ad-hoc tests, but discussion what is assumed in them (one-sided/two-sided, pooled data for null, and so on). You definitely can't assume away a thumb on the scale.

Also this calculation is not compensating for any multiple trial or early stopping effect. It (rightly or wrongly) assumes this is the only experiment run and it was stopped without looking at the rates.

This may look like a lot of code, but the code doesn't change over different data.

<comment><USER16> What do you mean by "brand name tests"?

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> I was looking for a much more personal article from the headline.

</comment><comment><USER18> I would be curious to know what percentage of teams with statisticians / data people actually use tools like Optimizely? A lot of people seem to be building their own frameworks that use a lot of different algorithms (two-armed bandits, etc.). From my understanding, Optimizely is really aimed at marketers without much statistical knowledge.

Of course, if you're a startup, building an A/B testing tool is your last priority, so you would use an existing solution.

Are there much more advanced 'out-of-the-box' tools for testing out there besides the usual suspects, i.e. Optimizely, Monetate, VWO, etc.?

</comment><comment><USER19> This title used to read "How Optimizely (Almost) Got Me Fired", which is the actual title of the article.

It seems a mod (?) changed it to "Winning A/B results were not translating into improved user acquisition".

I've seen a descriptive title left by the submitter change back to the less descriptive original by a mod. But I'm curious why a mod would editorialize certain titles and change them away from their original, but undo the editorializing of others and change them to the less descriptive originals.

<comment><USER20> I feel that the second title is better, as it talks about the kind of testing they are using, instead of being a click bait of "HOW DID IT GET YOU FIRED?".

<comment><USER19> My question is why mods change some headlines away from the originals to be more descriptive (good) and why they change back to the originals even though they are less descriptive (bad).

FWIW the change to this headline seems like the right decision to me.

<comment><USER21> The guideline is to use the original title _unless it is misleading or linkbait_ [1]. It's astonishing how often that qualifier gets dropped from these discussions. It's pretty critical, and makes the reason for most title changes pretty obvious.

1\. [https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

<comment><USER19> Thanks for the response. I'd humbly submit that there are occasions where the guidelines should be ignored in service of a more descriptive (non-linkbaity) title.

I can't find the submission but one recent example that comes to mind is a presentation on radar detectors that was fascinating. I clicked because the submitter described the article; the original title was (IIRC) the model number of the radar gun.

Later a mod changed the HN post back to the model number, which had zero relevance to anybody not in the radar gun industry.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> > The kicker with one-tailed tests is that they only measure – to continue > with the example above – whether the new drug is better than the old one. > They don't measure whether the new drug is the same as the old drug, or if > the old drug is actually better than the new one. _They only look for > indications that the new drug is better..._

I don't understand this paragraph. They only look for indications that the drug is better... than what?

</comment><comment><USER23> Do any of these tools show you a distribution of variable your trying to optimize? I am just thinking that some product features might be polarizing but if you measure, the mean it might give you different results than expected. I am thinking that's where the two-tailed comes in.

</comment><comment><USER24> Perhaps the most troubling element is that optimizely seems comfortable claiming 100% certainty in anything. That requires (in Bayesian terminology) infinite evidence, or equivalently (in frequentist terminology) if they have finite data, an infinite gap between mean performances.

</comment><comment><USER25> Peculiar use of the word bug in this context:

"They make it easy to catch the A/B testing bug..."

<comment><USER26> meaning "fever" \- generally cured by more cowbell, but in this case only "curable" by more A/B testing

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> this is all fine and good, but if you're goal is to see what works best between X new versions of a page and you are rigorous in creating variants, Optimizely is a great tool for figuring out the best converting variant.

<comment><USER28> Except, apparently, they aren't actually that good at _that_. If an A/A test to not yield 100% chance of 18% uplift, what gives you any degree of certainty that other tests won't have equally skewed results?

<comment><USER29> Run an A/A/B (or A/A/B/B) test, decide on traffic levels before you start the test, and let it run until you reach those levels before you peek.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> In my experience Optimizely does everything they can to mislead their users into overestimating their gains.

Optimizely is best suited at creating exciting graphs and numbers that will impress the management, which I guess is a more lucrative business than providing real insight.

</comment><comment><USER31> The headline isn't really what this article is about, particularly the disparaging of Optimizely. Might I suggest "The dangers of naive A/B testing" or "Buyer beware -- A/B methodologies dissected" or "Don't Blindly Trust A/B Test Results".

</comment><comment><USER32> Where's the part where he "(almost)" got fired?

<comment><USER33> Maybe that's the headline that did best in an A/B test.</comment></comment>


Windows Without Jerry: Microsoft to Can Seinfeld Ads? - <AUTHOR> http://technologizer.com/2008/09/17/windows-without-jerry-microsoft-to-can-seinfeld-ads/

<comment><USER2> Why? I admit that I'm not entirely sure what these commercials are trying to express, but I thought they were both very good.

I'm a long time Amiga/Unix/Mac/anything-but-Windows user, and while I'm not running out to buy a Vista-powered computer after seeing these ads, they do an excellent job of portraying Microsoft as not being evil.

I find that remarkable.

<comment><USER3> They are certainly more sensible than having Serena Williams or Lebron James tell us that they use Vista. Who cares? They also drive luxury vehicles that I will never afford. Just because some celebrity uses a product doesn't mean I should.

I agree with you. At least these ads are entertaining and make Microsoft seem less evil. Suddenly ending them will look downright stupid.

<comment><USER4> I dunno, they don't give me warm fuzzy feelings towards Microsoft.

At the most, they give me warm fuzzy feeling towards Bill Gates, but simultaneously reminds me that Bill Gates is no longer in charge of Microsoft -- he's just a doddering old billionaire who in my imagination now spends his whole life wandering around shopping malls and chatting to other semi-retired figures who used to be important back in the 1990s.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I think this is a really unfortunate demonstration of companies not trusting the people they hire. Crispin Porter & Bogusky is one of the best agencies in the world, and they have proven it year after year - there's no doubt they know exactly where they are heading with these ads. If Microsoft is truly balking at letting them "do their thing", it's too bad. CP&B knows what they are doing and Microsoft may continue looking cold and stale if they don't let Alex & Co. do what they do best.

<comment><USER6> My (completely uninformed) opinion is that the Seinfeld ads were not CP&B's idea. It seems like something that'd come out of msft marketing.

OTOH, what I hear they're doing with the next set of ads -- taking the "I'm a PC" and trying to redefine it -- is 100% CP&B and reminds me of other things they've done recently, such as taking burger king nastiness and making it a manly thing.

I wonder if Microsoft rejected CP&B's initial idea and pushed for this Seinfeld thing instead. After it completely tanked, they were persuaded to go back to the original idea.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> "Reviews". "Bad reviews"

Seriously, how many commercials even _get_ reviews? The first season of Seinfeld had middling audiences. Maybe they should have cancelled it...

</comment><comment><USER8> _Will I stop asking endless questions about Windows ads?_

Why didn't you ask the most important question of all: what the heck were they even talking about in those two spots?

(and I STILL don't know how they ended up in that family's house, these commercials are already way too disjointed, it's like middle school where everyone is making fun of you for no real reason, and even so you don't know why)

</comment><comment><USER9> This is truly disappointing. I had theorized that in light of the strange and arty ads for the zune and this amusing little romp, all of which seem to have only tangental relationships to the products they purport to be promoting, that Bill Gates had moved into a new area of "philanthropic advertising" where the focus is improving your day first and selling products second, if at all.

</comment><comment><USER10> Microsoft's marketing team is doing well lately.

<comment><USER11> They're getting talked about. That's a big step for them.

<comment><USER12> Microsoft doesn't need to be talked about. They're the leading brand.

What they need is a change in reputation. These commercials don't help.

<comment><USER11> They help a lot. They're different, which is not what MS is viewed as. They're making MS the topic of conversation, which Apple has been for 5 years now.

They're the leading brand in terms of sales, but mindshare is all Apple, and MS is playing catch up. They have to do something radical, and they are.

<comment><USER12> It's tricky, though, because Apple so thoroughly DOMINATES this mindset. Microsoft is playing against one of the strongest marketing teams out there, and thus far they seem to be doing a pretty poor job.

<comment><USER11> How can you tell that? So far all we know for sure is that they're being talked about, and going in, most people were questioning if/how that would happen.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Maybe radical, but maybe ms should first concentrate on releasing some things that don't suck. _Then_ advertise.

At the moment what are they even advertising? Vista? The promise that windows 7 won't suck as much as Vista?

</comment><comment><USER14> > it's hard to imagine that they paid him $10 million to do two spots

I'm not very familiar with prices for ad campaigns but the one number I know from recently is Adam Carolla being payed $350k for a Taco Bell commercial. Seinfeld being much much more famous than Carolla, and this campaign having been seen by everyone, it doesn't sound that much. (in comparison of course)

<comment><USER15> Agreed. He was getting $1,000,000+ per episode of Seinfeld towards then end + the amount he gets for syndication rights is disgusting.

Seeing as how he A) doesn't really need the money and B) probably isn't that interested in Microsoft products, I can see it taking $10,000,000 to get him to show up to shoot the ads.

<comment><USER16> It really feels like the campaign is missing the punchline though. I can understand the previous 2 ads to build some buzz, but they need to have some form of finale.

I want my moist and cake-like computer - where is it Bill?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> There is absolutely zero credibility in the statement that they only intended Seinfeld to do these two ads. That being said, it is entirely reasonable to assume that they planned to shot a couple of ads, see how they went, and switch to Plan B if they were not achieving what MSFT wanted at this point.

That's just good business.

</comment><comment><USER18> Unbelievable.</comment>


Free lectures from the UC Berkeley School of Information - <AUTHOR> http://www.ischool.berkeley.edu/newsandevents/mediacenter

<comment><USER2> Free lectures are great. I think all information should be free and open. Universities think it's a great idea now, but when people start using their online lectures for learning instead of attending classes and paying tuition, that piece of paper they give you will become less and less valuable in the business world, lowering demand for university training.

<comment><USER3> Universities need to change. Education needs to change for that matter. It's an open-book world now. The emphasis has to move to skills development over personal knowledge accumulation.</comment></comment>


Cambridge Analytica scrambles to halt Channel 4 exposé - <AUTHOR> https://www.ft.com/content/7ed1572c-2aa4-11e8-a34a-7e7563b0b0f4 <comment><USER2> [http://archive.is/VfEuT](http://archive.is/VfEuT)

[https://outline.com/gdN45D](https://outline.com/gdN45D)

<comment><USER3> Thank you for this.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXdYSQ6nu-M](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXdYSQ6nu-M)

["Christopher Wylie, who worked for data firm Cambridge Analytica, reveals how personal information was taken without authorisation in early 2014 to build a system that could profile individual US voters in order to target them with personalised political advertisements. At the time the company was owned by the hedge fund billionaire Robert Mercer, and headed at the time by Donald Trump's key adviser, Steve Bannon. Its CEO is Alexander Nix"]</comment>


How to sell programming/hacking articles online? - <AUTHOR> i want to sell my programming researchs. found a site (greads.net) but it looks empty. is there a good site allows people to sell digital documents? <comment><USER2> There isn't much of a market, considering so much is available for free and is of high quality (whereas the quality of your work is totally unknown).

You could write a book and submit it to an existing publisher, I suppose. That's selling documents.

<comment><AUTHOR> thanks, yes you're right. i also write for free but can't share everything unpaid. do you know anything about sites like tutsplus.com pay authors or not?

<comment><USER3> Yes. Tutplus.com pay authors : [http://tutsplus.com/teach](http://tutsplus.com/teach)

You might also want to consider submitting your content to digitalocean or linode, they have great tutorial site.

For self publishing you might want to try Leanpub ([https://leanpub.com/](https://leanpub.com/))

I also see some great content hosted on gumroad ([https://gumroad.com/](https://gumroad.com/))

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Our company may be interested depending on the specific content, please contact me on the email in my profile.</comment>


Writing a second video game for the Micro:bit in Rust - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@stestagg/writing-the-second-video-game-for-the-micro-bit-in-rust-3cd8b5ab22d3 <comment><USER2> Not sure the author is posting here, but I'm curious about people's experiences with Rust in these non-stdlib scenarios.

In my Rust I rely so heavily on the stdlib, and other crates, that it's hard for me to imagine working in an environment where I would not have access to that.

<comment><USER3> It's analogous to when you're using C to write a bootloader or OS or something. Yes, it's restricting, but that's typically the nature of those environments. The cool thing about Rust is that at least you have powerful abstractions you can use.

But the cool thing is that you can conveniently compose other no_std crates into your stuff. No more futzing about with m4 or global namespace collisions or did-they-leverage-some-weird-dependency-that-I-can't-build-here.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Have you given a thought to Nim? I've never used it in the embedded space, but it should work there nicely. It has Pythonic syntax, but it transpiles to C, so it should fit both your criteria. I'm not sure how the GC fits in, but i think you can turn it off if it becomes problematic. I'd love to see the comparison. Rust is powerful, but I'm guessing a good bit more complicated as well.

<comment><USER5> > transpiles

can we get rid of this web dev made up word already?

It should be "compiles".

<comment><USER4> It transpiles to C, which then compiles to machine code. I think Transpiling is the right word here. I guess you're right that you can compile to anything, but "transpile" seems more descriptive.

<comment><USER6> Compiling is literally translating from one language to the other, usually simpler one. There historically has been tons of languages compiling to C (e.g. various Schemes), and there was no need to invent a new word for it.

<comment><USER7> One of the great things about natural language, is that we can create new words, in order to arrive at more fine grained meaning. I personally can appreciate a difference between a compiler that takes source code in one language and generates source code in another high level language, and a compiler that takes a source file outputs a binary.

Granted, there are a lot of situations where there is no need to make a distinction, but that's not always the case.

An analogy might be the use of the words car and taxi. Cars and Taxis are both vehicles. In fact, a taxi is often a car.

In some situations, I might say "I went there by car" \- and that would be sufficient. But if the situation demanded I express the fact that the car that I traveled in was a taxi, I would say "I went there by taxi" (Not "I went there by a car that is owned by a freelance driver who charges by the kilometer")

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> Was that "always look on the bright side of life" I heard there?

<comment><AUTHOR> May have been :). Bitflyer 1 was written in python, so I tried to keep the monty python references in

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> How much are those add on boards?

<comment><AUTHOR> I don't think they are actually for general purchase(?)

They're being developed mainly for education and learning purposes.

The site is here: [http://www.nevilhunt.com/zbit- connect/](http://www.nevilhunt.com/zbit-connect/) but please be aware that this is quite a small operation, so you may not get any success

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> While I'm all for learning Rust on new platforms, I'm curious why something like Lua wouldn't be more appropriate for this particular use case. Maybe Rust was chosen just to scratch an itch, but it seems like the author could have given a little thought to using Lua in this environment, too ..

<comment><AUTHOR> Interestingly, I hadn't even considered Lua for this in any way.

In my (entirely unresearched, and opinionated) mind, Lua is in spirit, an older, less expressive, version of python. I know there's some impressive and interesting jit/compiler projects around lua that make it great, but it doesn't seem to help with the actual problem I was facing, which was low ram.

The nrf51822 has 128kb ROM, and only 16KB ram, so any allocations that happen at run time are comparatively VERY expensive.

bitflyer has about (guestimate) 40kb of static resources, for bitmaps and music. This means those resources had to be static, and loading/managing them in ram is hard. As an example, to buffer the display in memory is 1/16th of your entire ram.

With rust, this meant that I effectively had a 14kb stack, that is almost guaranteed to be non-fragmented, (I haven't got round to measuring the actual stack size, but I think probably no more than a 3/4 Kb actually used on average) and no heap to worry about.

As far as I can tell, Lua uses a heap-based GC model which means unpredictable usage, and fragmentation.

<comment><USER9> >an older, less expressive, version of python.

Wow, that's a bit of a pity, yo. I don't think thats at all correct. They're completely different languages and ecosystems. Where Python has a fat history, Lua is mean and light.

>As far as I can tell, Lua uses a heap-based GC model which means unpredictable usage, and fragmentation.

Well, its all quite tweakable:

[http://www.eluaproject.net/doc/v0.9/en_arch_ltr.html](http://www.eluaproject.net/doc/v0.9/en_arch_ltr.html)

EDIT: Mike Pall himself has weighed in on this subject, and I thought maybe you might to hear it straight from the horses mouth:

[http://lua-users.org/lists/lua-l/2005-07/msg00221.html](http://lua- users.org/lists/lua-l/2005-07/msg00221.html)

.. though, with LuaJIT and eLua around now, things have changed a fair bit since 2005.

<comment><AUTHOR> Sorry, that wasn't meant as a slur on the Language, just an expression on my uninformed background-opinion of it, trying to explain why I didn't go for this.

As for the eLua tweaks, things like rotables are quite cool, but ultimately you loose the ability to define them in lua, so, like micropython, it's doable, but just means you sacrifice the non-c nature of it to do so. :)</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Venmo: how the payment app exposes our private lives - <AUTHOR> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/17/venmo-payments-app-default-privacy-settings-public-information <comment><USER2> This is startling and it really makes you wonder why Venmo would have our transactions public by default. Or better yet, why should our transactions ever be visible to the public? What are their intentions?</comment>