American Entrepreneurs Who Flocked to China Are Heading Home, Disillusioned - <AUTHOR> https://www.wsj.com/articles/american-entrepreneurs-who-flocked-to-china-are-heading-home-disillusioned-1544197068 <comment><USER2> Aside from the general anti-China slant that is fairly common in the journal, I have yet to see a 'manage the market' to achieve results desired by the state to ever succeed, anywhere. Markets just don't work that way in my experience, they evolve, they change, and if you box them in they die.

So the fundamental question is, "What did these people expect?" (and were thus disillusioned when they didn't get their expectation). Did they expect that they would be able to build large foreigner controlled businesses? Did they expect that their success would not be impeded by a desire on the part of political entities to craft a narrative? Did they expect to secure more wealth for themselves before they were shut down?

I am always surprised by people who think they can do what they do in their home country in any other country and get the same results. But it is particularly true of people in the US it seems. If you don't really internalize how the laws, politics, and policies of a country shape what is, and what is not possible, you are setting yourself up to be disappointed.

<comment><USER3> Some of them had probably expected that the laissez-faire attitude of the Chinese authorities that was noticeable up to the mid-2000s would continue indefinitely, but that turned out to be a bad bet. Once the Chinese authorities started to become more serious about things like environmental regulations or higher salaries (both these things mentioned in the article like something bad ?!) then many "napkin" business-plans turned to nothing. I really cannot feel any empathy for this type of investors.

<comment><USER4> " _both these things mentioned in the article like something bad ?!_ "

It is the Wall Street journal.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Re-posting this sad and yet amusing comment from RalphWise:

This story helped me recall an article I read in the FT about 10 years ago. A Germ an businessman set up shop in China and hired locals to help him run the business. After about six months, he came to work one day only to discover he was fully cleaned out. No cash anywhere, all the books and inventory gone.

His employees had figured out how his business worked, started their own business within his business, siphoned off the cash and profits and took him hook, line and sinker.

When the locals were asked why they did it, they said it was simple..."he was a foreigner, and he deserved it."

<comment><USER6> this reminds me common sight of foreigner with local Chinese girlfriend/wife and sellers in markets blaming her for helping foreigner

so much for possibility of integration into Chinese society as foreigner, no matter how good it's your Chinese or culture knowledge you will never be accepted

<comment><USER7> We take America too much for granted. I came as an immigrant child 25 years ago and aside from maybe 4-5 relatively minor incidents, I haven't faced any major racism. Considering that I have maybe 2 dozen interactions daily and have encountered likely 10,000 people in my life that's quite extraordinary. A recent survey came out that 60% of millennial believe America is one of the most racist countries in the world.

Have significant immigration to any other country and watch the tribalism rise up. America post 1990s has been the most welcome place for mass immigration in human history.

In regards to China, I think they are great with foreigners. Urban China is quite fantastic. Might get a few dirty stares if with a Chinese woman but all things considered that's not bad at all. Hopefully soon it'll get better over the coming decades.

<comment><USER8> Canada is also quite welcoming of immigrants.

<comment><USER9> Basically the same country, just more left leaning.

<comment><USER10> No guns, better healthcare, and legal weed.

<comment><USER9> Sign me up :-)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Businesspeople might well be overstressing themselves with micro- and macroeconomic reasons behind China's declining attractiveness to foreign entrepreneurs. Rather, we might simply be dealing with Han racism against westerners. In the beginning, western entrepreneurs were reluctantly "welcomed" when they had things to teach China, investment of almost any form was needed, and China was simply poor. The reluctance was papered over by good manners, and the possibility of unusual profits. Now, China is much richer and more sophisticated, and much of the teaching and raw development is over. Westerners are more clever about hiding trade secrets, and more willing to outsource expensive factors of production in their Chinese operations. In a country of political sophistication that only few Westerners perceive, they are being eased out, having never been considered a perennial fixture in society.

<comment><USER12> You're right. And I'm surprised more Silicon Valleyers have not figured out that China, a country that _has concentration camps going right now_ is racist.

<comment><USER13> Sorry those camps are miserable but they aren't concentration camps. The word concentration camp has a specific connotation with the extermination camps build to kill Jews and other undesirable under Nazi Germany i.e. genocide. To conflate the two here like many people conflate Japanese internment camps with "concentration camps" is so off the scale it is at least misleading and at worst grossly insensitive.

<comment><USER14> Would you please stop posting inflammatory, unsubstantive comments? Nitpicking plus Nazis equals particularly pointless.

Edit: you've been posting a lot of flamewar comments lately (e.g. [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18620146](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18620146)), and we've already asked you not to. If you keep doing it, we're going to ban your account.

<comment><USER13> You gotta stop selectively enforcing moderation. The person who said China has concentration camps and is now somehow racist isn't being inflammatory? A few threads back when the Christian missionary got killed by the natives the entire comment section was a leftist circlejerk. The flamewar was already burning when I got here, and there is no discussion. I guess I shouldn't start dropping out shitposts but I don't feel particularly bad when the entire comment section is already beyond saving. I shall refrain in the future and just flag instead.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Yup. Got ripped off by a major hardware component manufacturer there. They refused to release the significant safety deposit when they were obliged to. Not a great way to loose USD30000 for a startup[0].

Then we have the almost comical lack of quality assurance, and understanding of what quality means and is.

Most of our significant efforts to set up a production line for computer hardware in Shenzhen failed.

It didn't kill us, maybe some innovation and extra focus on our product and quality came out of it.

It was, however, the fortune 500 client lawyers who saw to it that we met our demise (we were a "2 big clients shop").

[0] [http://bergesolutions.com](http://bergesolutions.com) Eulogy: Now defunct. Had massively big clients. Too big for us to handle. Shipped about 5000 units and we filed several patents.

<comment><USER11> In dealing with clients three orders of magnitude larger than yourself, you need a "hook." Years ago, due to an electronic miskeying, I got to listen in as a company lead purchasing agent, who had a law degree, discussed with other purchasing agents how they were going to push us around, complete with disparaging comments about our size. We had provided a specialized piece of equipment that the company's employees were sometimes too lazy to perform preventive maintenance on, despite training. I never got on a plane unless the service contract check had cleared.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> Interesting - the lure of "making something" in Shenzen has been a little seed in the back of my head for years... (one of those secret little pipe-dream- fantasies that pops up every once in a while and consumes 'what-if' cycles, but quashed by reasonable-rational-realist-me, but entertained just the same)

\---

That said, one of the adaptations of this little fantasy that I have had, and wonder about how feasible it could be is;

What if there were a group effort with a communal goal of accomplishing X in China...

An informal start-up-market type model where you have agents in some silo categories, but all working together.

Lets assume that the silos are "Design/Eng | Finance | ops | mfr-execution | sales"

So you have local US agents who collab on a design of a thing - you have backers (can overlap), and ops facilitators who focus on where when how it will be sold -- and then you have mfr-execution agents who actually go to shenzen and get the deal done and made... finally a sales org.

Kinda like a communal quirky?

<comment><USER17> It would be better just to build a Shenzen in the US.

<comment><USER18> Now THERE'S an idea. What are the major hurdles to overcome in implementing this?

EDIT: Looks like the efficiency comes at a high price.

<comment><USER17> Convince the people with all the money that building a giant manufacturing center would have a favorable ROI.

<comment><USER19> No, as much as I dislike Trump, a nice tariff could solve a lot of problems long term. Its after all how this country was built. Put in more economic terms, you should be taxing things you want to discourage. Taxing income/work, while providing free trade with locations that have lower tax structures _WILL_ force jobs and industries offshore.

OTOH, a nice fat tariff on things you want to manufacture, and suddenly manufacturing them at home starts to make strong economic sense. Of course as evidence suggests that you also need a large enough market to assure that your not just paying 100x as much to support some inefficient factory.

<comment><USER20> If tariffs worked on their own, Brazil would be an electronics powerhouse. [https://thenextweb.com/la/2012/09/30/from-brazil-cost- brazil...](https://thenextweb.com/la/2012/09/30/from-brazil-cost-brazil- profit-why-electronics-expensive-brazil/)

<comment><USER19> The NAFTA market is literally 10x the size of Brazil. Its not the same thing.

Worse, tariffs tend to work if your protecting an existing industry from dumping/etc, not so much if your trying to grow one.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> Entrepreneur in China since 2001 here.

The big shift occurred in 2007 in the lead-up to the 2008 Olympics when China said "OK, enough foreigners" and tightened up the visa rules (which were admittedly extremely open). They never relaxed them again. This experienced reality perfectly conincides with the drop-off seen in the graphics in this article.

IMHO there are three parts to the story the article misses: (1) The impact of the 2007 changes has now passed and stats across the board have stabilized or are picking up again. (2) China's first tier cities are now _extremely_ expensive, which is a massive disincentive for small-scale foreign investors. (3) That _Blue Frog_ chain's food is both terrible and expensive.

Also there are have been many major macro changes in this time the article misses, like increased focus on anti-corruption, reforms toward digital tax, banking and governance systems, Belt and Road Initiative, cities now choking on cars, WeChat and mobile payment going from 0-100% penetration, omnipresent food delivery, etc.

</comment><comment><USER22> China is crazy. Check out the vlogger 'serpentza' and his sidekick 'laowhy86' on YouTube. After spending so many years working and living in the "real" China (different from Shanghai, Bejing etc) they have a unique perspective on China. Interestingly, they recently announced that they may be moving to the US and continuing from there.

<comment><USER23> Why is China crazy for not being able to provide the same quality of life as the country with the reserve currency?

It makes sense that US is one of the easiest place in the world to live in.

<comment><USER24> The most interesting thing about China in that respect isn't that some parts of China aren't up to par with what you see in the US, UK, Germany, Sweden, or wherever in the developed world. It would be expected to take a long time to accomplish that, assuming it's possible for so many people to hit that standard of living at all.

It's the truly extraordinary imbalance between the top ~100 million and the bottom 1.3 billion.

~200 million people living on $3 per day. And 800+ billionaires at the top. ~500 million people living on $10 per day or less, and two million millionaires at the top.

It's a proclaimed Communist nation with the greatest inequality the world has ever seen. It simultaneously has a large quantity of among the richest people and the poorest people on earth, a very strange arrangement. The surprising thing is that China hasn't been far more aggressive when it comes to welfare redistribution. They could easily implement wealth taxes if they desired.

<comment><USER25> China is absolutely in no way Communist, in any way. They are full on corrupt capitalism, but still it's capitalism. They can proclaim whatever they want. Personally I think they have been making a slower transition vs Russia where the oligarchs and mafia flat out took over. While there are incredible inequalities in China, Putin is the biggest and wealthiest mafia head in the world.

But it is absolutely not surprising they are not doing wealth redistribution. That would actually make them a Communist nation

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> Anecdotal evidence from a pinball factory in China from Strange Parts.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnPhAn2_bjk&t=262s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnPhAn2_bjk&t=262s)

Leases on buildings have gone up in price. Regulations have been increased. But labor is still very high quality.

After watching this video, I feel that high schools in the US and elsewhere would be better if they taught consumer electronics repair rather than shop class.

There's still a lot of empty space to put electronic factories in the US. There's just not a lot of skilled labor.

<comment><USER27> > I feel that high schools in the US and elsewhere would be better if they > taught consumer electronics repair rather than shop class.

Yikes, I hope you're joking! The cost of manufacturing consumer electronics has gone down so much that it's virtually impossible to have a viable repair business in the US - perhaps high-end laptops, Apple products, and _very_ straightforward, limited repairs like phone screen repair, but that's about it.

As another anecdotal data point, I volunteer in a thrift store, and by _far_ the hardest donation to sell is electronics - most of the time we just trash/recycle it, even if it is in very good condition. People aren't willing to pay very much at all for tech that is even just a couple years old. Thus, if the average age of a piece of electronics needing repair is, say, 2 years, by that point the product will have probably depreciated most of its value. At that point the vast majority of people will just buy the latest and greatest.

<comment><USER28> On the other hand I recently fixed my home theater receiver with a handful of 20 cent capacitors, saving a multi-hundred dollar repair bill and/or throwing away the whole receiver. Basic electronics knowledge and soldering skill could help anyone at home. Just like being able to do light plumbing and electrical work comes in handy and will save you lots of money.

<comment><USER29> > Basic electronics knowledge and soldering skill could help anyone at home. > Just like being able to do light plumbing and electrical work comes in handy > and will save you lots of money.

I'm skeptical of this. When a sink is clogged, the toilet won't flush, or a light switch doesn't work, there are only a handful of potential causes, all of which are well known and can be remedied after watching a Youtube video. When electronics fail, there could be a million reasons why. Most people are better off buying a new device and getting a warranty on it.

<comment><USER30> When electronics fail, it's generally a handful of causes, or one or two well- known design flaws in some particular model of device. I'm not sure I've ever had a device that I haven't repaired at least once, and I haven't had a laptop I haven't repaired at least a half-dozen times before upgrading.

You know what's usually useful? A youtube video of disassembly, digging up a service manual with google's help; pretty much the same as a toilet, but generally far safer than trying to fix a light switch.

<comment><USER31> > When electronics fail, it's generally a handful of causes, or one or two > well-known design flaws in some particular model of device.

Once upon a time in the age before I dedicated my life to all things software repairing color tvs was one my sources of income. I respectfully disagree with your assertion, electronics can fail in very many different ways. All the way from 'rodent electrocuted in HV power supply' to passive component that never fails somehow in fact did fail.

Even something as mundane as a coil-over-a-resistor can fail if the conditions are right. And don't get me started on bad soldering connections, corroded connectors and a million other little details that can affect the functioning of a device to the point where the repairguy gets called.

This was before the days when oscilloscopes were portable, and unfortunately also before the days when I had a driving license. A typical house call would end up with a working TV or VCR and me learning yet another way in which things could fail.

Main tools: a couple of folders of schematics of the most commonly encountered models of TV/VCR (pick the right one before you leave, hope the user read the type plate correctly), a stack of matchboxes with passive components, some of the more common active components with enough spread that you could cover most cases, a soldering iron and a very large collection of parts scavenged from old TVs waiting for the opportunity to recycle them.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> [https://outline.com/rbNmG7](https://outline.com/rbNmG7)

</comment><comment><USER33> Foreign businesses having to follow local rules is nothing new, whether it's in China, England, or Mozambique.

China has, in the past, detained foreign executives accused of breaking local laws. There was this pharma case involving GSK in 2014 ([https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/02/business/international/ch...](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/02/business/international/china- rules-glaxo-bribes-sex-tape-whistleblower-cautionary-tale.html)) which found the company engaged in fraud in the country. GSK paid up $.5B and had to reform some of its practices as a result.

What is troubling is when those rules are unevenly or unfairly enforced, are designed to give other businesses an unfair advantage, or are subject to additional requirements outside of the standard protocol. There's a good backgrounder on IP theft in China here ([https://law.stanford.edu/2018/04/10/intellectual-property- ch...](https://law.stanford.edu/2018/04/10/intellectual-property-china-china- stealing-american-ip/)).

If you dig around it's not hard to find all kinds of horror stories involving "joint ventures" or unfair advantages given to domestic companies. I know someone whose relative was involved in a business dispute in China which resulted in that person being detained in a hotel without any charges filed at the behest of some local official. He couldn't leave the PRC until the dispute was settled to the satisfaction of the Chinese business partner.

</comment><comment><USER34> For as long as I can remember, the sales part of every organization I've worked for has been seduced by the "1 Billion Customers!" idea of China. that plus manufacturing with sweatshop style wages.

And in every single case, after much pain, they realize that it just doesn't work like that.

worst was an org that had their hardware cloned and sold (right down to knock- off pcbs).

another, selling a hw + sw solution to a chinese client with 5000+ sites, initial phase was for 50 sites, with the client doing installation and first tier support. guess what. the project didn't go beyond the initial phase. but part of the requirements of the project was sharing of ip.

<comment><USER35> That sounds a lot different from what's being discussed in this article. The article was more of a lament from mostly well-to-do Americans about how doing business in China is harder because wages went up in the decade since they landed.

<comment><USER36> So Tesla went there to open a giant factory? How smart musk is...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> They went to China, made tens of millions of dollars in profit, sold their businesses off at a fair margin, and now return to the USA to live what seems entirely likely to be the rest of their lives in all the comfort of whatever their millions of dollars can afford them.

<comment><USER27> What? I read in the article that some of the companies barely broke even.

<comment><USER38> OP seems to be describing the hamburger shop owner.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> The 1997 movie "Chinese Box" opens with Jeremy Irons character in Hong Kong autographing his book, "How to Make Money in Asia". After signing his name, he crosses out "Make" and writes in the word "Lose".

So this isn't exactly a new trend.

</comment><comment><USER40> There is no court system in China to handle dispute resolution —- at least not like what exists in the US. I asked a businessman in China about dispute resolution recently, and he said it's inconsistent and every province does it differently. There is a reason why in China many of the biggest businesses are located near where the government is located.

</comment><comment><USER41> I remember reading Phil Greenspun's blog circa 2004 as a new grad and him alluding to people teaching their kids mandarin.

I remember thinking, geesh, this guy is at Harvard and MIT, he must know more than me.

I'm glad I never followed through with that.

<comment><USER35> During the dotcom crash of the early 2000s, there were similar comments in the vein of "glad I studied finance and not this computer science BS". The world is cyclical; what doesn't make sense today, may be obvious tomorrow.

Condoleeza Rice learned Russian in college because that's what made sense in her time, especially if you pursued foreign service work. As Sec of State in the 2000s, she probably never had to use it in any official capacity. Come 2016, and knowledge of Russia is important once again.

</comment></comment><comment><USER42> [https://goo.gl/images/HbXTru](https://goo.gl/images/HbXTru)

What did you think would happen going to a place that is super corrupt, has an authoritarian government, and steals IP blatantly?

<comment><USER43> Most probably thought that they would be lucky and become a poster child or something.

"Look at this nice American, how he came to us and made big money!"

</comment></comment><comment><USER44> American entrepreneurs aren't needed in China any more. Enough people in China know how to do that now. More than enough.

<comment><USER45> There's a double standard. Rich Chinese are buying industries and property around the world, but secretly (or perhaps not so secretly anymore) have a problem with Western entrepreneurs owning things in China.

</comment></comment><comment><USER35> There are millions of rural Chinese labourers that face daily document checks and discrimination from local authorities while working jobs in the city.

I wonder what they would think if they came across this story and the worst thing that happened in it was that an American had to sell his upscale burger restaurant and complain about how unwelcome he felt in China.

</comment><comment><USER46> I went to China a few months ago and had similar thoughts:

United States There's a lot more to say, but overall, the trip made me very optimistic about the future of the United States.

China's cost advantage is disappearing. A 1.5-hour boat ride with a bit of transportation on both ends was almost $100 (US), and that was after we'd haggled them down. At those prices, cost advantages aren't a slam-dunk, and the distance (both geographic and cultural) start to weigh more heavily.

Add in the trade difficulties, not just the tariffs but the "local partnership" requirements, ongoing government interference in the market, and lax attitude toward IP protection, and I don't think China is such a great deal anymore. I don't think Trump's dream of a huge US manufacturing industry will come to pass, but for high-skilled stuff, the case for staying in the US is stronger than ever, especially considering our great infrastructure, well- educated populace, and sustainable environmental practices.

In sum, I think China is currently at its best, while the US is at its worst. They're coming off a long cycle of growth, while the US is eating itself alive with budget deficits, partisan conflict, and labor strikes. But as with people, the true test is how something does when at its worst, not when everything is smooth sailing.

[http://www.davidralbrecht.com/notes/2018/10/back-from- china....](http://www.davidralbrecht.com/notes/2018/10/back-from-china.html)

<comment><USER36> Do not worry. US government is helping China, from building democracy to IP protection. They are urging China gov to accept high standard to make China a more powerful competitor.

</comment></comment><comment><USER47> What I get from the article:

1, foreigners are less worshiped in China than before, giving them less advantage over locals, and in many cases a disadvantage if they have not forged strong connections

2, businesses founded on exploiting cheap labour and laissez-fair regulation are facing a hard time

3, market is maturing and the overall economy is slowing down, there are fewer untapped opportunities and existing businesses are facing increasing competition

Not to say that being a foreigner has no disadvantage, but if a Chinese entrepreneur fall into those categories, he/she will have a hard time succeeding too. In fact, if you ask Chinese entrepreneurs/business people today, chances are he/she will also tell you that it's getting harder to do business.

</comment><comment><USER48> I recently read a book about a man from the UK who went to China in the 80's. He partnered with a US company to start investing heavily in China (mostly manufacturing). It is interesting because (aside from the regulation) it reads very much like this article (up to the paywall).

The book is: Mr China by Tim Clissold

</comment><comment><USER36> I highly doubt any Chinese who could not speak English could succeed in US. Of course, if you think opening a restaurant in Chinatown is a success, I am wrong then.

So if you do not speak fluent Chinese, why are you supposed to be successful in China, especially when you are doing the things anybody could do?

<comment><USER49> Most of the foreigners in the article spoke fluent Chinese.

<comment><USER36> As fluent as native Chinese?

There are a lot of foreigners working in US. But I do not think it is because they could speal better English, but because they have skills, especially engineering skills.

<comment><USER49> Yes. Many foreigners working in China have 大山-level Chinese, enough to do business for sure.

And yes, there are also foreigners working in China with specialized skills, but we don't typically start companies there (I was one of the latter).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER50> We've had some pretty strong "make tons of money in China" boosters right here on HN. Here's one.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18483412](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18483412)

I wonder if _their_ tune has changed.

</comment><comment><USER51> I am not a huge fan of established religions, grew up catholic, but when a society has no moral compass, endemic instability is a constant. There are reasons for the most violent of boom / busts besides all the actions of the "white devils".

<comment><USER52> FWIW, the civilization you're referring to has been a continuous thing for roughly 3,500 years.

</comment></comment><comment><USER53> This is something relevant

[https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/03/asia/china-leeks-economy- trad...](https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/03/asia/china-leeks-economy-trade-war- intl/index.html)

</comment><comment><USER54> Are any/many big companies considering relocating computer manufacturing out of China?

<comment><USER55> Apple? I'm not finding anything about a solid commitment, but they have been talking of such for a long time.

</comment></comment><comment><USER56> The ignorant West is responsible for building up the global network of the Chinese autocratic regime. We hand them hard earned technology on a silver platter, we talk about China coming over from the dark side once they taste the other side, and the West bends over to allow China into the WTO for reasons that are still elusive. A communist regime should never be allowed to prosper in the way it has at the expense of Western ideals, rights and future opportunities. The beast exists because we feed it and allow it to prosper.

</comment><comment><USER57> Eastern European engineers are not.

</comment><comment><USER58> Strange to make a distinction between foreigner and local. Do you know that even as successful as alibaba chair and be a communist as well, you still have to surrender your wealth if you were told. Totalitarian country is totalitaruan country. The only strange part how they mix some market with ultimate state control of everything's successful so far.

</comment><comment><USER59> Yes, and their odds of being kidnapped by the state just went up 1000% this week.

<comment><USER60> I think you're referring to recent news of the arrest of a Huawei executive on request of US. Huawei is the biggest private company in China. In technology, its market share comes in second to Apple. In addition, the arrested executive (Chief Financial Officer) is the daughter of Huawei's founder. This event just light up a spark on an already tense situation and surely begs for a tit-for- tat decision from China. Meaning: the retaliation from China is expected to be about personal safety. So... more pressure to head out fast in case you're an American entrepreneur.

<comment><USER59> That is precisely what I was referring to, thanks for taking the time to provide context.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER61> You're acting as if "the general anti-China slant" isn't justified. The only reason China was tolerated so far is purely due to economic reasons, otherwise what China is today as a government shouldn't have been tolerated and, in facts, begs sanctions.

China has done far more egregious transgression to be sanctioned for than Russia, but business/economic interests seem to outweigh that sort of action against China.

<comment><USER62> Clearly China has done some iffy business transgressions (dumping, industrial espionage, etc.) though they've also provided plenty of bargain-priced manufacturing (I type this on a Mac made by Foxconn...). But there isn't any indication they've tampered with elections for example, so I think it's an overstatement to say they're "far more egregious" than Russia.

<comment><USER63> > tampered with elections

By that metric the US is most egregious, so is hypocritical to sanction anyone

<comment><USER64> That's whataboutism.

The US being a bad actor doesn't have any bearing on the the bad acting of China, which is being discussed here.

<comment><USER65> Unless it gives China reason to believe that such behavior is acceptable if their position on the world stage is high enough.

<comment><USER66> The Chinese government are mostly smarter than that, and better long-term thinkers.

The Russian government has a lot of Putin's ego in it, they make big splashy moves that look like 'exerting power' (ukraine, georgia, US elections). Meanwhile their economy is stagnating and regressing to resource extraction.

Why would the Chinese bother stoking tensions in America when we're already so good at it ourselves? "Never interfere with your enemy when he's making a mistake".

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER67> How can this be? So many times I read in the comments on HN, that the US isn't a great place for entrepreneurs because of health care or something.

</comment><comment><USER68> The more "spoiled" and sheltered one is, the more they think things are the same as where you came from.

There's also a lack of cultural awareness and an excess of "tourist mentality" ("look how funny these people look", "oh wow why was he rude to me", "can't he speak English", etc).

The same thing happened with Russia a couple of years ago and unfortunately some didn't return home.</comment>


FOBO (YC S11) fades off into the distance - <AUTHOR> http://fobostories.tumblr.com/post/98323799703/fobo-fades-off-into-the-distance

<comment><USER2> "It's been just about two months since FOBO launched its local marketplace app for consumer electronics. But already, the app has proven wildly successful in its home market of San Francisco, where it's pushing a $1 million run rate and spreading just by word-of-mouth."

[http://techcrunch.com/2014/03/16/fobo- video/](http://techcrunch.com/2014/03/16/fobo-video/)

The kicker? The article was posted _seven months ago_. It shows that "proven wildly successful" can still mean your startup dies in half a year.

<comment><USER3> Something doesn't add up.

<comment><USER2> It would not surprise me that "$1 million run rate" means "$1 million worth of products sold through our service," or some other actuarial abuse.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> > If you have any loose ends to tie up, pending sales, or earnings left in > FOBO, be sure to do so in the app, so we don't have to have the FOBOTs track > you down to get you paid.

I'd like to check on that, since I sold some stuff on FOBI a while ago. Unfortunately the app doesn't seem to exist in the App Store. It shows up in my iPhone's spotlight results, but the App Store page never loads.

</comment><comment><USER5> This one always rubbed me the wrong way after the "1 million run rate after 2 months" article. Since run rate was likely last week * 52, they simply sold $19k worth of good and took their 15% or $2.9k. An accomplishment for founders trying to get anything "to stick" but nothing to brag about!

</comment><comment><USER6> I was a huge fan of FOBO as I cheered from the sidelines. If any of the FOBO guys are interested in talking about their experience, I'd love to take you out for a drink or two, on me. Msg me if drinks sound good.</comment>


Step: A New Zero Trust Swiss Army Knife from Smallstep - <AUTHOR> https://smallstep.com/blog/zero-trust-swiss-army-knife.html <comment><USER2> I work at smallstep and figured I'd add a bit more context. `step` implements a bunch of "zero trust" primitives: authenticated encryption (X.509, TLS), single sign-on (OAuth OIDC), multi-factor authentication (OATH OTP), and encryption / signing (JWE, JWT, NaCl). We built the tool for our customers to debug and operate our certificate authority, OAuth IdP, and to authenticate to our identity-aware / policy-enforcing proxy from the command line. Some of these infra bits will be open sourced too, over time.

In the meantime we figured the core tool might be useful to other people for debugging, scripting, and automation. You can use it in a bash script to authenticate to Google using OAuth, or to securely connect to your own services that use OAuth OIDC for single sign-on. You can use it to implement MFA for SSH. You can use it to encrypt secrets for services (simple secret management). It's also got all of the core functionality you need to build a simple certificate authority. It's still pretty low level at the moment, but it's a whole lot easier to use for this sort of stuff than OpenSSL. Hope people find it useful!</comment>


Astronaut Koichi Wakata didn't change underwear for a month - <AUTHOR> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/science/article6735088.ece

<comment><AUTHOR> The reason I consider this article HN worthy is this:

 _"Designed to resist the rigours of lengthy space travel, the anti-static, flame-resistant, odour-eating, bacteria-killing, water-absorbent smalls have been put through their paces as part of a project aimed at ensuring that future space travellers will need only minimal space in their suitcases."_

Now imagine the myriad of different uses such underpants could have here on Earth. And? Precisely!

<comment><USER2> I am intrigued though as to why flame-resistance was tested... one imagines that if a fire breaks out the last thing on their minds will be _"at least my underwear wont catch"_

<comment><USER3> feature creep?

<comment><USER4> What they didn't mention is that the bloat made them 1/4 inch thick.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


An Introduction to Femtolisp [pdf] - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/FemtoEmacs/femtodocs/blob/master/femto.pdf <comment><AUTHOR> Chapter 4 is a slightly modified version of "The Man who knew Javanese" (1966) by Lima Barreto.

[https://periodicos.fclar.unesp.br/alfa/article/viewFile/3286...](https://periodicos.fclar.unesp.br/alfa/article/viewFile/3286/3013)</comment>


Kik Messenger to Shut Down over fight with SEC - <AUTHOR> https://techcrunch.com/2019/09/23/messaging-app-kik-shuts-down-as-company-focuses-on-kin-its-cryptocurrency/ <comment><AUTHOR> They will now focus their energy on making a blockchain to enable a billion consumers to make a dozen transactions a day — with transaction times of less than a second?

That "dozen" sounds surreal.</comment>


Cheap & Proud: MyUSACorporation - <AUTHOR> http://www.worldbyalex.org/cheap-proud/

<comment><USER2> nice, are they really that cheap or it is another scam?

<comment><AUTHOR> No, it is really that cheap. The founder, Alex Zehnbacht, is a business relation and a good friend; that is why I linked to his announcement of the launch. I can personally vouch for his integrity and commitment to running seriously useful, honest businesses.</comment></comment>


AI trained on Yelp data writes fake reviews 'indistinguishable' from real thing - <AUTHOR> https://www.theverge.com/2017/8/31/16232180/ai-fake-reviews-yelp-amazon <comment><USER3> Classification of reviews as fake or authentic is my MSc dissertation, so I thought I'd point out a few things. I have not read the paper referenced in the article yet, though. The article seems fine, given it's a pop-sci sort of thing.

a) Humans are generally pretty incompetent at determining if a review is fake or not, so my opinion is it is a crude yardstick at best.

b) I personally don't think using AMT as a source of subjects is a great idea unless care is taken to deliberately take into account psychological/social type factors - using AMT sort of turns your research into a psych focused one as well (unless you control who is in your pool of workers consciously and deliberately)

The important point I think is that they have gotten to the point where neural nets etc can generate readable text that obviously isn't computer-generated, and so can fool the typical or casual reader. My research is showing promising results for using ensembles to classify reviews, and the state of the art systems use more than just the text which make them fairly useful. But there will certainly be an arms race.

I am more terrified of the advances made in faking video and speech - <USER2> that really kicks off, Facebook will have to have _so many_ AI systems examining every bit of data "people" put into it.</comment>


There Is Gas Under the Tundra - <AUTHOR> https://www.lensculture.com/articles/charles-xelot-there-is-gas-under-the-tundra <comment><USER2> There are some beautiful photos in this article!

Love the guy taking a rest in the snow.

<comment><USER3> I guess so. But all I can see are _extremely_ fuzzy images.[0] Anyone know why I might be seeing that?

0) [https://keybase.pub/mirimir/flare.png](https://keybase.pub/mirimir/flare.png)

<comment><USER4> Yup, check your JS blocking and/or connection. I can confirm that the pictures in this article are both high-quality and simply beautiful (especially for those of us who love industrial porn).

<comment><USER3> I do connect via nested VPNs. Bandwidth isn't bad, but latency is 100-200 msec. Maybe the site is just confused.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> It was known for a long time that hydrocarbons existed below the ice in this location. Russia simply lacked the expertise to explore it properly and so it there it sat.

To my knowledge, only two companies worldwide possess the ability to explore in such harsh conditions: ExxonMobil and Royal Dutch Shell.

Russia, via Rosneft, opted to partner with ExxonMobil to explore the region and created the project photo-documented by the original post. It is known as Sakhalin-1 [1]. ExxonMobil is the principal operator and a 1/3 partner.

This article by CNBC [2] does a decent job of discussing the project and some of the economic and political issues involved. Personally, I found the contents below the fold the most informative and insightful.

Associated links: [1] [https://www.sakhalin-1.com/](https://www.sakhalin-1.com/) [2] [https://www.cnbc.com/2016/12/13/exxon-mobil-could-tap- huge-a...](https://www.cnbc.com/2016/12/13/exxon-mobil-could-tap-huge-arctic- assets-if-us-russian-relations-thaw.html)

</comment><comment><USER6> "ice breaker tankers" just sounds like tempting fate. Or maybe every tanker should be that sturdy /s.

<comment><USER7> It just means the hull design (and some other things) are different so it can function as its own icebreaker. If anything it's less risky than using normal tankers and constantly trying to clear a path for them.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Tundra will soon experience full freedom.

</comment><comment><USER9> FYI: There are some NSFW images/links at the bottom of this article.

<comment><USER10> Clarification: there are two risqué thumbnails to other articles. One of them is a breastfeeding mother and the other is a nudist male seen roughly from the side.

<comment><USER9> Exactly. This may or may not be NSFW depending where you are...better safe than sorry though!

<comment><USER10> Agreed. Added the clarification so that people who are from countries where such things are allowed in public won't avoid the article for nothing.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> ... and it better stays there. Building up more capacity to extract fossil fuels is not what we should be doing right now.

<comment><USER12> In practice, the shift to renewable electricity and the focus on reducing emissions means more demand for natural gas, since gas generators produce less pollution than coal and are better at responding to changes in demand caused by variation in the renewable energy supply.

<comment><USER13> Is that really practical though? I mean, it makes sense financially and in terms of how we usually do transition, but we're frankly running out of time, and maybe we need to be radical rather than practical.

I'm old, I've seen how we've ignored the warnings for the past 30 years. Worse yet, if you ask people on when sollutuons can be ready, they say 10-20 years, and we only have one decade left to stop our own destruction.

<comment><USER14> I'm old too and I truly believe that we will continue to be here 10-20 years from now with roughly the same world we've always had.

<comment><USER15> 10-20 years ago places I lived and remembered being quite heavily snowy in the winter just get a bit of dusting at best now.

New England has lost over 600 ski areas. There are fewer and fewer places with good enough conditions to grow coffee (a shame as I feel like the culture around fine coffee is just now coming into existence in the US). Enjoy oysters, clams, and scallops while you can as ocean acidification is killing them in droves. As soil heats due to global warming, it releases carbon dioxide, accelerating these effects.

I don't think the world is the same for anyone working in these industries or in tourism. Folks on HN are also generally isolated from the effects of the kinds of droughts that caused the Arab Spring, or from having to home refugees of climate change whose islands are disappearing to the rising sea levels.

<comment><USER16> At least with the ski areas, gross mismanagement had a significant part to play. Saddleback mountain doesn't get any less snow than Sugarloaf or Sunday River, but it has been repeatedly run into the ground.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN - Need career advice - <AUTHOR> I am a java developer. For most part of my career I have worked in companies where I got to develop software which was mediocre. Not too good not too bad, just OK. This is not to say that I am a bad programmer or I lack the knowledge of good coding practices. I do have them and I try my best to stick to them. I also try to learn on my own in my free time. It is just that all the opportunities that I have got were quiet trivial - basic CRUD applications. Now I think its time to move on and do some work on serious and cool stuff - cause that is what I wanted to do. Stuff that really matters. Stuff that will be used by people. Perhaps a startup would be the right place or even may be a big company, bottomline is that the nature of work should be exciting.
However I have some trouble moving to other place. Wherever I go for an interview I get rejected. This is due to 2 reasons: 1. I don't have a formal education in computer science. So if they ask any questions regarding data structures, algorithms I get stuck. This sends a wrong impression. 2. Though I am a Java programmer and I think I am quite good at it, they ask questions about technologies I have not worked on. So they think I am just a dumb programmer. Should I have been familiar with all technologies related to Java? Should I have learnt a new language?
I am quiet desperate to move to a hard core techie place. But I am not sure how should I upgrade myself. I know I have to do some homework, but I am not sure what should I do which will get me to the place I would want to work. Should I start reading the computer science basics - what ever they teach at college? Even after that I am not sure if I will make through. Should I learn a new language or technology - even then there are lots of them and each company uses one or other - so it would be like shooting arrows in the dark.
Can some one provide advice on how I can revamp my career. I am ready to spend time to read stuff and upgrade myself even if it takes a long time for me.
There is also another issue. I am more looking towards startups as I think I would fit their culture well. However I don't know where can I find startup jobs. They are not available at monster or naukri. Even if they are they are sporadic. hasgeek.in and other sites don't have many jobs in java. Please advise on this as well. <comment><USER2> You say that you get suck on algorithms and data structures, and that you are worried that your lack of a formal education may hinder your interview- ability.

Well, fret not. Little of what is taught in college has any relation to the types of questions asked in technical interviews. And although a lack of degree may influence an interview in more subtle ways, most interviewers are far more interested in your technical ability. So, scratch that nagging fear off your list, and proceed with the following steps.

Step 1: Apply for lots of interviews. Yes, you will fail many of them, but it will also up the stakes and encourage you to take steps to improve. It's easy to want to learn. Having deadlines and commitments makes it harder to push things off to another day.

Step 2: Keep track of every question that is asked in an interview. Make a spreadsheet of places you've interviewed at, and the questions they've asked. Begin to reflect on your interview, and jot down any terms you weren't familiar with.

Step 3: Learn what those terms mean. Answer those questions you couldn't answer before. And most importantly: Understand what the interviewer was looking for in asking that question. Understanding of OO? Algorithms? Systems design? An understanding of the technology stack? Categorizing the questions in this way makes it far more manageable to digest. These are the categories you want to study. Wikipedia, Stack Overflow, Books. Go.

Step 4: Repeat step 1. (You have now caught up to the average university graduate)

</comment><comment><USER3> I can't help you with the programming advice, but I would start looking in these three places: 1) Startuply.com - There are a decent number of jobs that teeter on the edge of corporate/startup here and you can probably find a few decent companies.

2) <http://jobs.github.com/> \- There is a small but nice selection of startup dev jobs here. Most of them seem to be ruby-ish but you should be alright.

3) <http://careers.stackoverflow.com/> \- You should find alot more Java jobs here. There are less startups but still a bunch of cool roles.

As for how to deal with companies asking you with other technologies, you have a chance RIGHT NOW to apply the whole iterative process to your interviews. Each time a company asks you about a tech in an interview, go google the crap out of it, play around with it, and learn a bit! Even if you spend 48 hours REALLY learning one tool, by the time you do 10 interviews you should be relatively prepared for the future interviews. As someone who hires alot of engineers, I would love to hear someone take this approach as it shows they really do care about the language, the community, and will learn all the new stuff we throw at them on the job.

</comment><comment><USER4> > However I don't know where can I find startup jobs

Have you looked at the monthly "Who is Hiring?" thread here on HN?

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3181796>

This post might be useful on transitioning your career:

[http://vermasque.blogspot.com/2011/07/on-quitting-your- progr...](http://vermasque.blogspot.com/2011/07/on-quitting-your-programming- job-to.html)

What country are you in? It might be more difficult if not in the USA.

</comment><comment><USER5> Why not find an open source project and start contributing to it? It would be a great way to learn new stuff, and to get known in the 'community' (a great way to get a startup job).

Or start your own project - build something purely for fun. Maybe even start it in a different programming language (the one the interviewers keep asking you about).

Do something fun - that's the best way to learn and the best way to get inspired. The rest will come naturally.

</comment><comment><USER6> I can't help you with the programming advice, but depending on where you are, there are tons of startup, entrepreneur blogs around that also have jobs boards. Here in Boston, I follow: <http://venturefizz.com> <http://greenhornconnect.com>

Not to mention HN has their job board.

Good luck!

</comment><comment><USER7> It sounds from your post as if you don't know how to learn new stuff.

I'm sorry, but that makes you unhirable for the kind of exciting projects you want.

What stops you from learning a technology this month? Say, MongoDB. Anything, really.</comment>


Ask HN: Why does a url use ://? - <AUTHOR> anyone know why a url is structured that way? <comment><USER2> The ':' is to separate the scheme from the bits that are specific to the scheme. The // is to indicate a hostname and not a directory. http:/test is a valid url indicating a relative path on the machine that the current resource came from, <http://test> is a url that specifies a resource on a machine mapped to the TLD test. The double slash removes the ambiguity. It really is two bits, a ':' and the '//'

Other possible sources of confusion:

<http://test.com:80/>

You could then get:

http:/test.com:/

Position would give it away, but, if you then complicate matters further by using default protocol (in your broweser http) it looks like:

:/test.com:/

In many browsers

://test.com:/ is perfectly legal.

Of course, you could strip that down further by dropping the default port colon to get:

://test.com/

See here for a much longer (and probably better :) ) explanation:

<http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1738>

I hope that helps !

</comment><comment><USER3> Technically, not all of them do; "<schema>:" is the common prefix, and everything else depends on the URL type.

See: <http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1738.txt>

In particular, section 3.1, 'The scheme specific data start with a double slash "//" to indicate that it complies with the common Internet scheme syntax.'. So it is used by URLs that require any of this information: "//<user>:<password>@<host>:<port>/<url-path>".

<comment><USER4> I should note that both Safari and Firefox understand the URL 'http:news.ycombinator.com/item?id=796434' as well.

<comment><USER5> but only in the url bar; both turn a url like that into a relative url when used in an img src, for example.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Note that a url like //www.example.com will use the context's protocol, which means an img src="//www.example.com" will use http or https depending on which the page was loaded in. Very handy!

</comment><comment><USER7> In a private conversation some years ago, Tim BL told me that he used to use Apollo workstations back in the 1980s and that he really liked Apollo Domain/OS, so he took the // from the Domain distributed filesystem, which used // as a way of addressing possibly remote files, i.e., //hostname/path/to/file . I suspect the \\\ in Microsoft UNC pathnames is also derived from the same, probably due to Paul Leach's influence there as he was also from Apollo.

</comment><comment><USER8> RFC 1738 section 2.1 specifies the colon between the scheme (e.g., "http") and the scheme-specific-part (e.g., //news.ycombinator.com). The // is specified in section 3.1 as part of the "common internet scheme syntax." Specifically, the // is intended to identify the scheme-specific-part as complying with the CISS.

</comment><comment><USER9> Kinda wondering, but doesn't a question like this belong on stack overflow?

<comment><USER10> Possibly. But these are the cool questions that make Hacker News Hacker News and not Digg.

<comment><USER11> I think its the answers, more than the questions, are what makes Hacker News.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Tim Berners Lee, the creator of the Web and of URLs, wrote some time ago that he regretted the double slash in URLs, saying that one would suffice.

<comment><USER2> It went a little further than that, I think the scheme would have been:

http:/com/ycombinator/news/item?id=796434

<comment><USER13> And that would have been awesome.

<comment><USER2> Yes, but there would be a couple of problems as well, specifically the DNS would need some major revamping. The DNS was already operational long before the web came along and it already used the '.' notation.

http:/com/test/www/someresource

and

http:/uk/co/test/www/someresource

Would have both been valid resources but it would be harder than now to figure out where the machine boundary is located.

You can't go by 'count' (because of subdomains) and you can't go by www either.

I think if they would have gone that route for practical reasons the // would have been 'reinvented', and it would probably be placed like this:

http:/com/ycombinator/news//some/path/resource.html

I'm not sure what the implications for phishing, certificates and humans interpreting URLs would have been in that situation either, but I know that I find it convenient to be able to fish the 'hostpart' out of a URL without further knowledge on my side.

<comment><USER14> Heh, when _I_ first started using the internet, domain names in the UK were "backwards". My first email address was:

firstname.lastname@example.com

In fact the first "domain names" I used were things like "lancs.pdsoft" but I think those were X.25 names, and the less said about X.25 the better.

At some point around '91 or '92 JANET reversed all the domain names to bring it into line with IETF standards. This caused some confusion with names beginning "cs." which could either be the Computer Science dept of some UK unversity, or a domain in the old Czechoslovakia.

<comment><USER15> With UUCP, we used to put machine names in the order they were needed for routing, so in effect it was backward compared to today.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> The : separates the protocol and location, and // is the root level of a path.

<comment><USER17> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/URI_scheme#Generic_syntax>

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> <http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=101></comment>


GPS data are vital—but the signal is surprisingly easy to disrupt - <AUTHOR> http://www.economist.com/news/international/21582288-satellite-positioning-data-are-vitalbut-signal-surprisingly-easy-disrupt-out?fsrc=scn/tw/te/pe/outofsight

<comment><USER2> This is a poor re-written title. This story is about how every day for up to ten minutes near the London Stock Exchange, someone blocks signals from the GPS network.

<comment><USER2> Also proof of why you need to title your submissions carefully... this same story, re-titled, made it to #1.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6123535](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6123535)</comment></comment>


Water's Fourth Form - <AUTHOR> http://news.discovery.com/earth/new-water-super-cool-below-zero-111111.html

<comment><USER2> Horribly misleading title and text. "Besides vapor, ice and liquid, a fourth form of water may exist." At least 15 crystalline phases of water exist, including Ice IX. I think this is the relevant paper <http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jp2051867> but it's behind the ACS paywall. In any case, it's based on computer simulations using the TIP5P water model, and not experiment.</comment>


London's trees are saving the city billions - <AUTHOR> https://www.citylab.com/environment/2020/03/london-trees-economic-benefits-urban-cooling-carbon/607525/ <comment><USER2> Logically similar, I would make the headline:

 _Cutting down London's Trees Costs the City Billions_

You can define normal how you want, but my way comes from seeing trees as normal. The old headline seems to treat lack of trees as normal.

Instead of cutting down trees and putting up buildings, how about cutting down buildings and putting up trees?

<comment><USER3> Why not follow Singapore and have both? Any greenery you cut down to build something must be replaced, and in Singapore that happens to be replaced by becoming part of the building itself. It's a very unique, and IMO, cool look when the skyscrapers have an open garden halfway through, or gardens on top with greenery down the sides.

<comment><USER4> NYC would be so amazing with greenery integrated into the cityscape more

<comment><USER5> I hope this will happen soon. NYC passed a green roof law in Nov. 2019 that requires all new or extensively renovated buildings to install gardens, urban agriculture, or solar on their roofs.

[https://www.citylandnyc.org/29502-2/](https://www.citylandnyc.org/29502-2/)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> On my street the local council has recently cut down 5 trees and replaced them with 2 tiny saplings. One is doing well. And the other is currently being used by some guy to hang his electric car charging cable!? I despair for humanity some times.

I bought this house 4 years ago and have since planted 5 trees on my property alone. And have convinced two neighbours to plant at least one.

<comment><USER7> > the other is currently being used by some guy to hang his electric car > charging cable

Have you spoken to him about this?

<comment><USER6> No I haven't. But I have half a mind to place a sternly worded letter on their windscreen!

But what do you say? "Um. You shouldn't do that." Why? Because it's bad for the tree? "Have some respect for nature?" It's a difficult argument to support.

"Don't be stupid, ya moron." is really what I'd like to say.

<comment><USER8> Life is to short to accept every disrupting element others introduce.

Just ask him to come over here and look at something, then standing together on a 15 meter distance of the tree ask him wether his decorations add a useful element to the scenery.

Unbox the most ugly Christmas decorations you find on ebay. And supply the man an additional set of extras so from now on he can go ahead with a more professional gear set.

The machiavellian would record and post the prince glitter show on instagram and then burn $200 on instagram ad boost to a selective postal code area.

Next time your British nod will have super powers.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I worked on a project with Trees for Cities and Ealing Council a couple of years back, which tried to visualise the importance of urban trees. Data had been gathered to estimate the monetary value provided by trees and how much it would cost to replace them. It was pretty eye-opening for me. Link if interested: [https://www.ealingitree.online/](https://www.ealingitree.online/).

</comment><comment><USER10> The claim is "Billions are saved on cooling costs because the trees keep the environment cooler due to (presumably) shade and evaporative-cooling".

Since the vast majority of buildings in London do not have AC, the savings are more theoretical than real.

There are also the thousands of people employed full time in the autumn to pick up leaves, and the people employed all winter to unblock drains blocked with tree detritus, and the springtime cutting of every tree and the associated road blockages and slowdowns... Those are very real costs.

Add to that the misery that tree pollen causes ~half the population... Having a headache, painful eyes, and blocked nose from april to july has got to hit productivity pretty badly!

I'd say the benefits on purely economic grounds aren't as clearcut as this article suggests.

<comment><USER11> Regarding pollen, it is not just trees, but also grasses and flowers.

Plus anti-histamine tablets are super-effective and cost literally a couple of pence per tablet from generics so you could spend perhaps £5 (1) to have enough hay fever tablets to last the entire summer and beyond (and probably free on the NHS if you can't afford £5) so I don't think it is quite such misery.

1 - [https://smile.amazon.co.uk/240-Loratadine-Allergy-Relief- Tab...](https://smile.amazon.co.uk/240-Loratadine-Allergy-Relief- Tablets/dp/B076CJ5TG3)

<comment><USER10> Take a chemical to block some effects of one's immune system... Sounds like a good way to avoid hayfeaver but get more serious infections instead...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I'm not so convinced of the findings of this - value wise. Yes they are great but been many failed initiatives that lacked common sense:

[https://www.surreycomet.co.uk/news/11855411.greener- pastures...](https://www.surreycomet.co.uk/news/11855411.greener-pastures-for- tolworth-as-dead-trees-finally-replaced/)

They spent a huge amount to install a non-native tree that is effectifly a stick and they died, replaced them again and they also died, finally replaced them with something that would last and they are just saplings. The greenway was effectively getting the middle of a busy road and putting in some concrete pathing which they painted green, few flower boxes that are mostly showing off soil and that cost millions.

So call me a cynical about some initiatives, but I've seen, experienced as thanks to my local council - paid for so many failed ones that to teh common lay person - lacked common sense, that when I see such reports, I just know they are not seeing the whole picture and are only used to push more expensive, ill-thought vanity projects by certain types of councils.

Same council who ignores flooding in some area's and would be best solved by planting some trees, yet they refuse as they are worried about additional leaf little that may clog up the roads. For those wondering - Kingston-Upon-Thames is the area's I'm referring about.

But if a council can cut down a large tree for dubious reasons and replace it with a couple of saplings that take decades to reach the same potential and in many cases, poorly chosen tree's that will die, they can trumpet their ego and say they have more trees than they cut down, yet reality shows that is far from the truth in results.

<comment><USER13> > install a non-native tree

Well, that seems like a problem to me.

<comment><USER14> Not really in this case. The list of native fastigiata trees available is reduced. Yew would be the closer one, but can be very problematic in public spaces

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Urban tree planting is great but there must be a better way of planting trees along pavements.

Everywhere they have been planted the roots have torn up the pavements sometimes causing them to mound over the roots which looks really unsightly and is often a trip hazard. Also on some pavements the trees cause bottlenecks because its too narrow for two people to pass eachother.

<comment><USER16> Perhaps we can get rid of some of the pavement :)

<comment><USER17> Pavement = "sidewalk" in American

<comment><USER16> Ah, in American it's usually considered to be the street itself…

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> My experience with UK trees is that Victorian housing does not have foundation, so their roots can and do make the walls moving, crack up floors, etc. Cracks on the walls means bad insulation (apart unstable structure to live in), hence I am not sure the assessment in the article is thorough enough.

I am not sure what would be the solution to this, apart from demolishing the old buildings and build new ones up that satisfy modern standards.

<comment><USER19> Double glazing would already go a long distance in London. I would not blame the trees when a lot of houses have windows with cracks you can see outside through. Let alone the single glazing everywhere.

<comment><USER20> My landlord put in double glazing before I moved in, it is assuredly better than the previous situation - but there is still on hell of a draft coming from somewhere...

<comment><USER21> Have a look at the floor for draughts. Our old methods of construction were pretty shocking. Look out for gaps underneath the skirting boards. Our walls are usually a double skin of brick and there will be air bricks to allow the gap between to dry out. Then you have floor/ceiling joists, probably with gaps around their ends. On the joists you will have floorboards, again with gaps between them. On the boards you will probably have some rubbish underlay and then carpet. Around the edges the walls will be finished with skirting boards. Over time the floors will sag.

You only report "one" hell of a draught coming from somewhere. There will be lots of draughts!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> The article mentions both air conditioning and prevention of worker productivity loss from the heat. Isn't it double counting?

Generally you pay in productivity loss XOR the AC costs, right?

<comment><USER14> Noise reduction (better quality sleeping time), improving psychological well being of citizens, and pollution cleaning are another economically relevant services.

Trees are not free, but even taking in mind the need to remove litter and manage it, they will improve the economy in a city. At least as long you choose wisely the right species.

<comment><USER22> I am only curious about the reasoning behind the (possibly) double counting, not challenging the reasoning as whole.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> One of the real problems with tree planting is that humans don't comprehend the lifetime of a tree intuitively - hence chopping down a heritage tree and replacing with 10 saplings. It takes a couple of centuries for a tree to reach full maturity. At 100 years they're adolescent. Combine this with our lack of appreciation for the "network effects" of forests and we are exceptionally neglectful of these incredible life forms.

Highly, highly recommend the book The Hidden Life of Trees

<comment><USER24> That isn't true at all.

Trees become mature at different rates, which also depends on climate. In temperate climate with sub-zero winter, a fast growing species, like poplar trees and spruces, will take 10 years to start producing flower.

And while a yellow poplar lives on average 250 years, the hybrid poplar live 50 years. White spruce easily live pass 300 years, while black spruce seldom reach 300 years.

Edit: network effect has nothing to do with a tree maturation or lifespan, but everything to do with creating an ecosystem. A single row of trees in the city creates an local ecosystem. The Houston medical area is a good example of that: [https://news.rice.edu/2019/09/06/pain-in-the-asp-rice- ecolog...](https://news.rice.edu/2019/09/06/pain-in-the-asp-rice-ecologists- find-bird-deterring-nets-create-haven-for-stinging-pests/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> In my city, landlords gang up on trees with see click fix. They express fake concern over power line proximity, just make up stories about dead branches or rot, etc.

It saves them a few hours of labor to pick up leaves.

</comment><comment> 867-5309 slightly related: bees are in decline and worth hundreds of millions to UK economy being pollinators for major exports apples/cider. hence the need for more protected and greener spaces. I read somewhere that bees provide more money for the UK than the royal family

<comment><USER26> Given the Royal Family is entirely a cost, that's not saying much.

<comment><USER27> No, not even true. The Government makes a profit on the Crown Estates, the Civil List is entirely covered - and MUCH less than say the French pay on their President. And we haven't even started on revenues generated from tourism, etc.

I think we get a Good Deal.

<comment><USER26> The Crown Estates would be public land, and without the royal family we could open several large buildings as museums — and charge entry to tourists if we want to profit.

We'd also be free of some racists, a sex abuser, and a meddling old man, who claim to represent the people of a democracy but have never stood for election.

<comment><USER28> The crown estates are not owned by the public, they are owned by the royal family. To transfer them to public would need the government to give the royal family a massive pay out.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> There are trees in London?</comment>


Bjarne Stroustrup discusses the education of programmers - <AUTHOR> http://www.ddj.com/cpp/207000124;jsessionid=S0OJYXWMQ3FSQQSNDLOSKH0CJUNN2JVN?_requestid=185517

<comment><USER2> "The idea is to give the students a broad view of computer science during the first two years ("making them ready for their first internship or project") and then using the next two years to go into depth in some selected areas. During the first two years, the students get a fairly classical CS program with a slightly higher component of software development projects than is common. They have courses in hardware and software (using C++), there is some discrete math, algorithms and data structures, (operating and network) systems, programming languages, and a "programming studio" exposing them to group projects and some project management."

And bang, just like that, we'll have raised a whole 'nother generation of Java/IT "programmers".

Java and C/C++ are horrible languages with which to teach computer _science_. "Programmers" more and more are becoming technical fast-food-workers. Trying to reason using horrible, imperative bloatware like C++/Java moves "programming" more and more away from even an engineering discipline.

<comment><USER3> I have heard the argument about particularly java being a horrible language for teaching CS, and that it gives you terrible habits. I've heard it both here and other places - so it's most probably right.

Not being a seasoned programmer I don't quite understand why. Would it be possible for someone to explain the reasoning behind this?

<comment><USER4> At least one reason is that it hides too much from you.

I started out in Java. It really got me into programming - I could make all these pretty little windows and graphics and do everything else quickly and easily. But, as I later found out, at the expense of that ease came my knowledge.

Example: The ArrayList class. It's a dynamic array. The LinkedList class. It's a linked list. They're fundamentally different. But in Java, they look and act pretty much the same, and they're already available in the standard library. The learning programmer doesn't need to know how they work or anything.

Same thing with memory. In Java, you get no feel for what memory is being used, or how it's being managed. In C, you're the master (and the slave), and you yourself have to manage and take care of memory and pointers. It tells you much more about how computers actually WORK when you're programming in C.

In summary, Java just gives you too much. It hides you from the raw details. This is great for a production purpose language - but for a teaching language, what could POSSIBLY be worse, when the intent is to reveal and NOT hide all the small details?

<comment><USER3> Thanks for the reply

Sound like the reason you state is basically Joel Spolsky's Law of leaky abstractions. [http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/LeakyAbstractions.htm...](http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/LeakyAbstractions.html)

I started programming in PHP, and can relate to the experiences you've had with java. It's great for actually getting stuff done right out of the box, but I suspect a lot of stuff is being hidden from me. Since you seem to have gone through this process, in your experience, does this give problems later on in a production setting?</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Inescapable, Influential, Misused: The Oregon Health Insurance Experiment - <AUTHOR> https://undark.org/article/oregon-health-experiment-obamacare/ <comment><AUTHOR> Any effort to understand the political divide over health care inevitably turns up the pioneering study — and its susceptibility to partisan spin.</comment>


Amazon EC2 with Hadoop is 4 times more expensive than running on our own cluster - <AUTHOR> http://deepvalue.net/ec2-is-380-more-expensive-than-internal-cluster/ Deep Value runs Hadoop at scale on EC2, but we find that running our own cluster is significantly cheaper. By significantly, I mean 3.8 times cheaper. <comment><USER2> Are you implying Amazon web services is a high margin business? That would be good for Amazon stocks

I agree virtualised server performance is lower than equivalent hardware, but order of 4 magnitude seems very high and improbable.

Assuming you don't use S3 locally, I don't see EMC mentioned anywhere in your local cluster, we should remove that in comparison

<comment><AUTHOR> Some of the difference comes about due to the number of cores in the machines we purchased - they are 16 core machines (each E5-2650 has 8 cores.)

In terms of storage, we are utilizing HDFS with commodity 3TB drives, thus no specialized storage from EMC (or the like.)

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> I am not surprised by your calculation. Amazon has to earn from the service it provides. It is not on the basis of no-loss no-gain. It is well known that the EC2 is great if you have to quick start your system without worrying about the hardware infra. It is also good for initial quick scaling. And it is good to some extent of scaling after that it is not advisable? If would be cheap, then why not other big companies will use amazon rather than managing their own data center?

<comment><AUTHOR> Understood that Amazon needs to make a profit, but these are still dollars that I need to pay for, that I could be feasibly be using for something else (hiring great developers perhaps.)

I think the advantage of EC2 is exactly fast scaling, and an easy sell to management (no big upfront.) But as we started using it at size and consistently, it is just cheaper to run our own hardware as the blog attests to.

We do all the racking and cabling using "remote hands" directed from our SAs in India, and so far for us this has not been the complex part. Getting the Hadoop configured and our software running efficiently if several orders of magnitude harder, and EC2 doesn't I think help here. If anything it hinders as we are dealing with virtual hardware. There have been several posts about "lemon" EC2 instances and how you should test your instance before using it.

<comment><USER4> Using EC2 also takes away a part of the risk. If your startup fails in a year, then you don't get stuck in the end with a pile of hardware (for which you paid big bucks).

I guess that the best would be to use EC2 in the beginning, when you don't really know how much hardware you need, and later on use EC2 only for demand spikes.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes - this is what we are doing. With this 4x cost differential however, we calculated that it takes only 6-8 months to have the hardware pay for itself, so if you plan to be in business in that time frame you are better of buying.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I would also suggest taking into account other cloud options. Amazon is very often not the cheapest option. Just compare it here: <http://www.cloudorado.com/>

</comment><comment><USER6> Nice analysis, ec2 certainly comes with its own problems, Like difficult to manage and hard to integrate ec2 hadoop cluster with private cluster

<comment><AUTHOR> We have run into issues with VPC being tied to a specific zone and the availability in that zone.</comment></comment>