Show HN: Wrote book that builds a SaaS boilerplate. Save weeks on side projects - <AUTHOR> https://builderbook.org/book <comment><USER3> The price is expensive, but not eye-wateringly so. The non-preorder price gets closer to eye-watering territory, but it's still in the range of things I'd buy if I was confident they'd save me quite a bit of time.

Your site does not inspire that confidence so far. Here are some things that leave me disinclined to purchase your book even though I consider the price reasonable and am interested in the topic:

1\. I don't know who you or your co-author are, and I don't know of any SaaS you've built that I've used or contemplated using. Have I used something you've made? If so, tell me!

2\. Show me an example of the SaaS that the book teaches me to build. If I could experience what result I might produce, it's easier to spend the money to learn how.

3\. In light of points (1) and (2) not being satisfied, your terms of purchase are really scary. I can't download a copy of the book to keep? You can revoke my access at any time? No refunds? I know I can reliably get my credit card company to issue a chargeback within a month or two if something's not as promised, but I tend to read this kind of content more slowly than that. I want to make sure that I can continue to have it as I make my way through it at my own pace.

I hope none of that sounds like hostile feedback. It's not... I'm someone who's actively looking for this kind of resource. The price itself isn't a problem, except that I can't see what I'm getting, I don't know your work well enough to know I'll find this work useful, and you say you won't offer a refund if I don't find it useful. Plus you say you might revoke my online access and refuse to offer offline access.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for feedback.

Each chapter has ample of free excerpt (10-20% of total content), all code is public under MIT license: [https://github.com/async- labs/saas](https://github.com/async-labs/saas)

This worked well for us so far. We received less than 10 refund requests out of 850 purchases. Not sure what else to add here.

Code speaks for itself, I am just no-name guy in the cabin in the middle of the forest, with hotspot and generator. I have early-stage SaaS business with few paying customers but nothing to brag about it: [https://async- await.com](https://async-await.com)

If I were you I would not buy this book. At least one author is not a celebrity =)

<comment><USER3> I saw the code. If I knew enough to judge whether the book was worth purchasing just by reading the code, I wouldn't need to buy the book.

(I'm glad to hear you're not receiving many refund requests. Are you refunding those requests you receive? The terms page makes it look as though you are not. That would be the relevant thing to add there, relative to my questions.)

The code might speak for itself if I were already an expert. I'm not. I'm a good programmer who wants to learn more about the details of building a service offering, and I'm trying to figure out how effectively your book will teach me what I want.

The link to your SaaS business is part of what I was asking about. Is there a way for me to explore that without paying to see what it's all about? Is that a typical example of what the book is helping me build?

> If I were you I would not buy this book. At least one author is not a > celebrity =)

I'm smiling at that, but it's not at all what I meant when I said I don't know who you are. I didn't mean I literally need to know who you are; I meant I was hoping to see an example of the end state your book is purporting to guide me towards. SaaS is kind of a big space.

I'm really glad it's working well for you so far. I hope that continues, and a cabin in the middle of the forest with a hotspot and generator sounds like a great place!

<comment><AUTHOR> Sorry if I misunderstood. I cannot and I don't want to convince every potential buyer individually to buy a book. Imagine a farmer's market, you ask how much is a bundle of garlic, seller says $20, you don't like a price or seller and you move on.

\---

I see many are unhappy about price. How much time would you need to build subscription API with Stripe in your SaaS project? Few hours at least if you are good and know where to look. How much is your time worth, $50 an hour? So here you go $100-$200 saved. The book paid itself. And that's just one feature out of few dozen.

<comment><USER3> I totally get that. And I'm not asking you to argue with me about the price for a head of garlic. You're saying "I wrote a book on how to build a boilerplate SaaS application." I'm thinking "I have a couple application ideas I'd like to sell as services. I wonder if this book could help me. Are my ideas like what this author has built before?" And I'm finding nothing to guide me on your page.

For example, one of the things the application I'm imagining needs to do is send people text messages to remind them about appointments. That feels like a very "boilerplate SaaS" thing. But I can't tell if that's part of what you're selling here or not.

For another example, my app would need to send mobile push notifications. That also feels like boilerplate SaaS and I can't tell if your book covers it or not. It could break either way based on the outlines you list.

Your terms page just says "(5) We use Stripe to securely process payments. We do not offer refunds."

If I spent $200 on your book and learned what I wanted, it'd feel like a wonderful purchase. If I spent $200 and it didn't teach me the things I was seeking to learn, it'd feel like a terrible purchase. Since I don't want a refund to enter the picture anywhere, I'm trying to figure that out in advance :)

I apologize if this discussion is unwelcome. I'm mostly engaging it because I am actively seeking to purchase reading material on this specific topic, so talking about it in detail seems relevant and helpful here, as you are, at least superficially, seeking to sell what I am seeking to purchase.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I would not consider this project a proper SaaS boilerplate. It is a Web application boilerplate and maybe a good one, but not SaaS.

 _SaaS implies multi-tenancy_ and your project does not seem to offer support for that.

Irrespective to that, your book's regular price IMO is too high - <USER2> books/tutorials/courses (targeting various stacks) can be found for as low as $59.

<comment><USER5> I'm not OP, but it's boldly indicated that the book will be kept up to date and it will be up to the author to continuously provide new content on breaking changes or whatever happens to this stack in the future. $99 seems appropriate to me

<comment><USER4> A promise to keep a project up-to-date does not imply a promise to add a significant feature, such as multi-tenancy support (assuming that it's missing, that is). Re: price - $99 is pre-order price; by "regular" I referred to post-pre-order price of $199.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Hard pass on anything that involves Mongo.

<comment><USER7> You beat me to it. Maybe early on it made sense but not now, especially if you're using typescript. Not keen on vanilla node either. Criticism aside, they were able to finish writing a book. That's something.

<comment><USER8> what's the problem with mongo? which document database would be better if you'd use typescript? I'm using mongo with typegoose in development and I'm happy with it. I'm open to better alternatives

<comment><USER7> 1\. You end up doing more work in the end with mongo. Instead of SQL, you have to reinvent the wheel with new logic 2\. It's not as reliable as a relational database 3\. There are several ORMs in node that make using databases even easier like typeorm 4\. A lot of databases support JSON now 5\. Databases still perform better than Mongo in general 6\. If you really need NoSQL, Cassandra tends to be better imo

<comment><USER9> 1\. Debatable, but my (biased) experience is the ease of change in an agile project favours databases with a flexible schema.

2\. Reliability is not a pure function of whether you use SOL or NoSQL

3\. ORMs hide but do not remove the need for schema management in SQL dbs. They often create more problems than they solve.

4\. SQL databases support JSON because it my accurately reflects the programming model that programmers want to use. This is making an argument for NoSQL.

5\. Which NoSQL you use is a matter of personal choice in many cases. I prefer MongoDB (I would say that though, I work there). Cassandra has some challenges as it is eventually consistent by design (and default). MongoDB is strongly consistent by design (and default) which makes reasoning about your programs easier.

<comment><USER7> 1\. As cludgy as SQL is, having to reimplement basic SQL queries ala reinventing wheels isn't very smart imo. It's worse than having an inflexible schema

2\. I was only referring to mongo and not to NoSQL as a whole. Cassandra worked just as a advertised.

3\. You don't have to use an ORM with a relational database just as you don't have to for mongo. There are other alternatives

4\. JSON is no longer an advantage for NoSQL since it's supported by relational databases. It also means that relational databases as a whole can adapt to the market.

5\. Which NoSQL you use and for what purpose matters, and it's not just "personal choice". NoSQL in general aren't the generic swiss army knives that relational DBs are. Each NoSQL project has different use cases, which in turn also have different levels of reliability and performance.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> You guys use stripe for payments in the book but what about taxes? I feel a good addition to your book would be to mention Paddle as they operate as a merchant of record so taxes are accounted for.

<comment><USER11> And TaxJar, Avalara, etc

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> I was prepared to buy this and then I sorta stumbled across the Builder Book

They look very similar? But they're different? According to the docs this one is more focused on advanced patterns? Does a person need to buy the first to get value from the second?

Very confusing UX IMO

<comment><AUTHOR> I think you don't need to buy first book to understand second book if you already built a simple web application with this or similar stack.

Later this month I plan to somewhat re-write first book, many packages push changes often (Next.js and Material-UI) plus many explanations can be improved and I need to do better job with diagrams. First book, Builder Book, is either for junior developer or someone who wants to save time to learn this particular stack.

I hope this helps.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> Perhaps it's a great book but the price is crazy.

<comment><AUTHOR> Co-author here. We find it to be ok price for us.

\- Quantitative evidence, we have over 150+ pre-orders in the last 3 month which is more than good for us. No advertising, no social media. We sold first book 700 times. So that's 100-120 people out of 700 who pre-ordered second book.

\- Qualitative evidence. We have way more polite customers after raising price in the past ($49 -> $99) for our first book. More polite emails, more feedback and less emails asking for support.

EDIT: My co-author says that we have evidence that higher percentage of people who bought the book at higher price point actually read it.

PS: Price will go to $199 on Sunday midnight PST, that's when pre-order period ends.

<comment><USER13> > More polite emails, more feedback and less emails asking for support.

Obviously. If I were to run a restaurant I would rather choose/open as expensive as I could so I wouldn't have to deal with people without proper manners and education sufficient to appreciate my fine culinary skills /semi- sarcastic

By the way. Here had already been some posts by free software authors devastated by rude and ignorant people demanding support and/or bullying them by e-mail. I find it very important for all the authors (regardless of whether they code/write for free or for serious money) to learn to just ignore (without any emotional response) the correspondence from this kind of people. You don't alienate them this way, they already got what they are eligible for for free or for their money, personal support should be a premium, for nice people only :-) Yet, there actually are many nice people for whom $100 (let alone $200) per book is a way too much. Some of them even living in the US, not necessarily in an utterly poor country.

<comment><USER14> Maybe a rent option?

<comment><USER13> No, the idea of rental of digital content is artificial and plain ridiculous, as is the idea of dividing the Internet into countries.

<comment><USER14> Except that textbook rentals have been a thing since before the internet.

<comment><USER13> Indeed. That was before the Internet. Many things were before something yet would look bizarre (which doesn't necessarily imply completely impossible) today.

<comment><USER14> Actually textbook rentals are probably even more used now with higher costing textbooks. Yes you can still rent textbooks.

<comment><USER13> Sure, this is a well-known problem. Sooner or later this bullshit business model will be eliminated.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> I can't see the two links above "Boilerplate", "Reviews" and "Log in" except for a few pixels so I know there's some content hidden at the top. My browser is about 1/2 the width of a 1080p desktop.

</comment><comment><USER16> Small nitpick, but the hamburger menu bar on the top right is unresponsive on Safari (iPhone 11 Pro iOS 13.6)

<comment><USER17> Abandon the hamburger menu.

Many blue collar users have no idea it exists, and it cripples your app for that percentage of users.

<comment><USER18> Probably not too many blue collar users interested in building a SaaS product, though.

<comment><USER17> Tons interested in using them - if they're "easy" and don't "get in my way"!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> The responsive design is not encouraging. The page does not shrink to the size of my screen, text is overlapping and it generally looks slapped together without a concrete methodology. For two hundred dollars I don't even get to own the book? Yikes.

</comment><comment><USER20> Would you consider doing an addendum that uses PostgreSQL instead of MongoDB?

I've been looking for something exactly like your book, but I need to use a SQL database.

<comment><AUTHOR> I can't promise since I don't know how much time it would take. I plan to start partially re-writing our first book (Build Book) later this month plus a new feature for Async. So no time really in the near future.

Is `sequelize` a good library to use for PostgresSQL?

<comment><USER21> It is a big pain in the butt but it is definitely the standard/most popular. I can't imagine boilerplate using another ORM.

<comment><USER8> heard of typeORM?

<comment><USER21> Actually hadn't heard of it. It has about half the downloads of sequelize but really nice to hear there's a popular alternative. Will check it out for the next project.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> Can you clarify if the reviewers paid full price or not?

<comment><AUTHOR> Reviewers bought book at the full price of the book __at the time __.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> Do we go to 25k LOC of our own code or including libs?

If the first, I guess my side-projects were too small if they need 25k LOC just for the boilerplate.

<comment><AUTHOR> I laughed hard.

Your own code.

Yes, the name "boilerplate" is deceiving here. Not sure where to draw the line. This boilerplate does have some features - websocket with rooms, working with Markdown, S3 file uplod, API Gateway with AWS Lambda, webhook from Stripe and many more.

Is there name for boilerplate with "popular" features?

The book's code is actually free and hosted here:

[https://github.com/async- labs/saas/tree/master/book](https://github.com/async- labs/saas/tree/master/book)

We charge for book's content which is bunch of explanations and diagrams.

<comment><USER11> Boilerplate + Features I've heard called Skeleton.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> For me, the 'Pre-order book for $99' button is un-responsive. Latest Chrome + incognito

<comment><AUTHOR> Wow weird. Works for me but web app is slow now and I don't think it is a good idea to redeploy right now.

After clicking button, you should be asked to log in and then redirected to checkout page hosted by Stripe. Would you try later again? You can also email us if you prefer email, at firstname.lastname@example.com

<comment><USER25> I like that you put the buy button inside the content of the book but you should also put a straightforward buy button on the site and add some fluff on the front page.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> How do you ensure 1 person does not buy the book and resell for cheaper or distribute for free?

</comment><comment><USER27> Huh. I was hoping this would be about everything _except_ building the product.</comment>


Surgeons urge people to throw out bristle BBQ brushes (2016) - <AUTHOR> http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/barbecue-brushes-dangers-swallow-throat-wire-bristle-dempsey-1.3741578 <comment><USER2> Once, I got a bristle in a waffle cone from an ice cream parlor. Fortunately, I noticed it in my mouth before I swallowed. The parlor used a steel brush to scrub the griddles clean. Their policy is to bake a waffle cone after cleaning and immediately throw it away to catch stray bristles. One employee didn't follow the policy.

<comment><USER3> That's a terrible policy and doesn't get at the root cause of the problem.

<comment><USER4> Yes they should bake and throw away two waffles to be extra sure that they get all of the bristles

<comment><USER5> "Just another put another if statement in there, you know, just in case." -Anonymous

<comment><USER6> Test is failing... increase timeout

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> When this news first came out, I tried practically all the alternatives. My personal experiences:

Wadded up aluminum foil: really does not work well. It gets loose grime off, but anything at all burnt on will take very vigorous scrubbing and possibly result in shredded foil everywhere. Also feels like a huge waste of foil.

Wooden scraper: works ok, since it's not flexible doesn't get between the slats well, need to put a lot of elbow grease in to get stuck-on stuff, and if you leave it outside in my high humidity region - even under a cover - it will get disgusting fast

Abrasive pads/steel wool - work surprisingly well, but need to be replaced constantly and it's fairly disgusting work (you will feel like you need a shower afterwards) because you are basically in the grill

Nylon brush - did literally nothing.

The solution I'm currently on is a wire brush that is continuous spirals of wire rather than bristles. Available from your preferred online merchant, etc. Does not work nearly as well as a traditional wire brush: have to use quite a bit more force, and very awkward to maneuver it between the slats. That said, it gets the job done very well and it's durable.

<comment><USER8> I wonder if there is a non mechanical way of cleaning it and instead a chemical reaction like oven cleaner. Ideally it would be something that wasn't seemingly related to a chemical weapon but maybe that's what it takes.

<comment><USER9> Fire, man. Just let the fire clean it. Never saw the point of wire brushes unless you're leaving food on the grill when you're done with it.

<comment><USER10> I think a lot of people don't let their grill get hot enough. I know I have problems with cleaning my smoker racks (and my wife won't let me run them through the dish washer) so I have to throw them on my charcoal grill when I'm heating it up.

<comment><USER9> Yeah, probably. Charred food is not good for you really, but it's going to be on there anyway after you cook on a grill no matter what (unless it's like, a George Foreman...?). I can't imagine the bit of carbon on the grill from the last session would ever cause more harm than normal charcoal!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> The caption to one of the photos is priceless:

> _Kevin Gallant, of Summerside, P.E.I., had part of his small intestine > removed after he swallowed a bristle from a barbecue brush. He still uses a > bristle brush, but inspects the barbecue thoroughly after using it._

He still uses a bristle brush.

<comment><USER12> Can you really blame him? The brushes are so apparently so good at cleaning that it's worth his time to inspect the results after than switch to an alternative. It's not like his approach is unsafe.

bristle brush cleaning time + inspection time < alternative cleaning time

<comment><USER11> That approach sounds wrong to me: bristles breaking off is pretty rare already, and inspecting the barbecue for bristles is only as good as your ability to pay attention while doing it, while not finding anything most of the time. People often overestimate their ability to pay attention, because the cost of missing something is usually low and the consequences manageable. People's intuition regarding very rare events is also pretty bad in general. So attention would be the limiting factor, which is why it still seems unsafe.

Also, I felt like the goal is to avoid having a portion of your intestine removed, not really so much to save time.

<comment><USER13> As the comment you're replying to stated, the man inspects the barbecue, not the food. This seems to me to be easier and less error-prone.

<comment><USER11> Oh you're right, I read that wrong ("inspect the results"). I still don't think it's a good idea, it's the same problem.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> How is it that the manufacturers haven't had a class action put their way? I mean, they are knowingly making a product that fails in regular usage in a way that is almost impossible to prevent or detect completely.

I'd suggest these types of scrapers be legislated against since they are incapable of being used safely in reasonable intended usage.

<comment><USER15> Yeah, well, good thing we have OpenBazaar so that people like you won't be able to keep me from exercising my freedom to use a real manly brush to do a real manly job. I'm sure that really offends you, but I'm no snowflake. I can make my own bristle material decisions for my self and on behalf of everyone I cook for./s

<comment><USER16> You ruined it with /s

<comment><USER17> Actually he saved it.

<comment><USER18> I don't know, it's my opinion, but I feel like the /s trend/adaptation has ruined a lot of the jokes for me by being overly explicit and not leaving any ambiguity...where is the fun in that :P

<comment><USER17> I think on HN the need for clarity is seen as more important than having fun, because misunderstandings can do more damage than fun can create pleasure. This unfortunately limits the number of meta-levels (or ambiguity) you can use in jokes or sarcasm. But I guess it's worth the tradeoff. And actually with a bit of effort you can often have both.

<comment><USER19> HN quote of the year IMHO: "I think on HN the need for clarity is seen as more important than having fun..."

<comment><USER20> 2018 is still only 1/4 through.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> I switched to using a wooden scraper a couple years ago, when I first read this report. Works great!

[https://www.amazon.com/Great-Scrape-Woody-Paddle- Natural/dp/...](https://www.amazon.com/Great-Scrape-Woody-Paddle- Natural/dp/B013S1SM4I)

<comment><USER22> I have that scraper, and found that it really doesn't do a very good job. A balled up piece of aluminum foil works better than the wooden scrapers, in my experience. Unfortunately, the best results come from the bristle brushes.

<comment><USER21> Aluminum is just being wasteful honestly. Not sure how clean you're expecting, but this does a fine job at getting all the big chunks off (which is what you want). Heat will nuke the rest of it.

<comment><USER23> Depends on what you're cleaning it for. Some people are paranoid that the bits of carbon left clinging to the rails are known to the state of California to cause cancer and must be completely removed before it is safe to heat food.

Or you can be like me and just get the grill hot and give it a quick once over with a metal spatula to remove any chunks that are sticking up. I mean I'm cooking over an open flame here, it's already carcinogen city.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Steel wool is safer, no doubt, but this shouldn't really be anything more than a freak occurrence if you clean a grill properly. The wire brush is just the first step to remove the coarse stuff. Soap, water, and some kind of fine abrasive pad or scrubbing cleaner should remove these barbs. I guess at some restaurants, they're more concerned about speed and don't take the care...

<comment><USER25> I'd say products that are only safe if used properly are unsafe products.

Being safe is a perfectly good strategy for an individual, but it's asking for trouble on a societal level.

<comment><USER26> So do you think Home Depot should close down? They sell hammers.

<comment><USER27> I wonder if he was making the opposite point. That enforcing safety at a society level is not productive.

<comment><USER28> I don't think so. Its a common argument that generally available products should be safe by default, not safe because of training. The reply is a bit of a straw man, there's obviously nuances to that stance. In this case, expecting _everyone_ to know exactly how a wire brush is unsafe is not realistic. If there weren't alternatives, well, there wouldn't be much to do. But in this case, there's plenty of safe alternatives to wire brushes, thus a strong argument can be made that they should simply be banned.

<comment><USER29> What would such a ban look like? No wire brushes for BBQs? What about the wire brushes they have in the hardware aisle? Do they need to add 'not for BBQs' to the label?

Seems like good fodder for tabloid evening news and then just let it be.

<comment><USER30> Most people are just going to go to the barbecue aisle and find the "safe" brushes. Someone really determined to buy a wire brush might find the rust- scrapers or something, but that's no different from paint thinner not being sold as a household cleaner.

It makes sense to me to make the safe option into the easiest, most obvious path to take. Stop labeling wire brushes as "barbecue brushes", and stop stocking them directly alongside the cooking tools. That's the form I imagine a ban would take.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> I am mildly surprised this is a problem. I've used a wire brush to clean the grill for as long as I've grilled and had no issues. But then, I've always combined using a wire brush with pre- and post-cooking heating the grill at full power to burn off accumulated stuff. The wire brush is far more effective at scrubbing things off when the crud is beginning to ash, as opposed to the partially-caramelized state it was in when the food first came off.

Edit: I will additionally add that I also scrub the grill plates on occasion, because as mentioned in other comments, the accumulated crud makes food more likely to stick and can also impart a bad taste.

<comment><USER32> I couldn't find a wire brush when I bought my grill but was surprised to discover that the actual grill plates were "Porcelain-enameled cast-iron". I just dump them into the sink and let them soak every couple of weeks and they basically come out nearly spotless.

However, I don't normally clean them except for using a plastic brush when they are cold—mostly to get rid of the big pieces. I rather like the "seasoning" :)

<comment><USER31> It seems to me that porcelain-enameled grates are becoming more common, even on cheaper grills. And yeah, that style of grate cleans a lot easier than the straight metal wire grate I've seen on older grills.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> Why do you clean a grill?

Let the carbon build up. It's seasoning and food doesn't stick to it.

Just preheat the grill to burn off any remains from the prior use. If there's really heavy buildup, use a straight edge scraper like a paint scraper or heavy spatula.

Cleaning a grill down to shiny bare metal is a sure way to have all your food stick to it every time.

<comment><USER34> I don't know about you, but after grilling I usually have hanging chunks of fat on the grill. Not exactly appetizing if that's been around for months.

<comment><USER35> I think that part of the disparity is in frequency of use: if you cook on a daily (restaurant) or even weekly (enthusiast) schedule, you won't have problems. If you only grill on major holidays, you won't be able to just use it without cleaning.

Also, a grooved scraper with the right spacing for your grate does a great job of removing large chunks. You don't need to polish it to bare metal, just remove that excess. Scrape after grilling while it's hot, wait a week, wipe with a paper towel dipped in olive oil when it warms up, and it works well enough for me.

<comment><USER36> Incidentally, the occasional griller is also the exact person who would most likely be least aware of the danger with a wire brush... sort of a perfect storm situation

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> I threw mine out after using it once, and seeing that the BBQ had quite a few bristles stuck on it. I can't believe people actually use those things, it seems horribly unsafe.

<comment><USER38> No doubt. This advice seemed a long time coming.

</comment></comment><comment><USER39> I have used a wadded-up piece of aluminum foil for this purpose for years. Works better than a bristle brush and no bristles!

<comment><USER40> Those shredded reconstituted blocks of glass that look vaguely sponge like work really well too, though you gotta rinse it down pretty aggressively afterwards and wipe with a cloth cus it gets powder all over the place.

<comment><USER41> If you mean the melamine foam blocks ("Magic Erasers"), then they're not actually glass. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melamine_foam](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melamine_foam)

<comment><USER40> Ah no not those, I mean literally chunks of ground up bottle glass that just vaguely look like sponges. They're not at all actually sponge like in absorbance property.

<comment><USER41> Hm, then I'm not familiar with what you're describing.

<comment><USER40> Sure, something like this: [https://www.amazon.com/EarthStone-750AZ003-GrillStone- Grill-...](https://www.amazon.com/EarthStone-750AZ003-GrillStone-Grill- Cleaning/dp/B000LF61TI)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> I'm not sure if it was exactly the same type of brush, but a number of years ago I found a wire from a grill brush in my mouth after taking a bit at an Outback Steakhouse. The restaurant was profusely apologetic and comped our meal without our asking them. I feel very fortunate to have felt it before I swallowed in light of this, and other articles I've read, since that meal, but unfortunately there's no way to control whether restaurants change the tools they use in-light of these warnings.

<comment><USER43> "No way" short of sensible government regulation.

Too bad regulation is bad for business or we could all enjoy our food without fear of wire bristles.

<comment><USER44> Banning bristles is unnecessary as long as they are used correctly, which is only before further cleaning.

<comment><USER33> I've worked in restaurants and we always used stiff plastic brushes and abrasive pads for cleaning the grills.

Restaurant-grade grill cleaner (basically industrial-strength oven cleaner) is pretty effective. You don't need to do a lot of heavy scrubbing if you use it properly.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment> purple-again Wow what a nightmare, in the article that poor women couldn't even get it taken out after dozens of x rays and attempted surgeries. I saw from another comment this is from 2016 but somehow I missed it and appreciate the link. Throwing mine out right now.

<comment><USER45> I had the same problem. This is from 2016 and the issue was likely known a lot earlier, yet I never heard of it and most people I know with a bbq clean it that way.

Which in itself references a huge problem. How do you combat conventional wisdom and traditions?

</comment></comment><comment><USER46> Can confirm this is terrifying. Zero out of 5 stars.

I once pulled a bristle out from between my molars. Thought about it for 5 minutes...realized it was from the grill (was eating a salad made of leftover grilled chicken). Googled "wire grill brush swallow". Read horror stories. Immediately freaked out. Even used a metal detector like you would use on a beach on my stomach to see if I swallowed more (didn't work). Spent the week waiting for disaster to strike (it didnt). Immediately threw out all wire grill brushes forever.

</comment><comment><USER47> "Hospitals in the Halifax area are seeing at least one or two cases each week"

Wow - that's an incredible rate - I wonder what the national statistics are like?

<comment><USER48> How are these things not banned? If something is sold for casual private use that predictably leads to hundreds of people having metal barbs stuck in their throat every year, and if the procedure to extract those barbs is sufficiently difficult that it has become recognised as a national problem among surgeons, then there seems to be pretty good grounds for banning it. As this thread attests, there are plenty of alternatives.

<comment><USER47> They've been selling these for years - if the rates of failure are so high I don't understand why we haven't heard more about it. Puzzling.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER49> It's infuriating that articles about a problem like this don't spend just one single sentence on possible alternatives, even though the surgeons are begging.

Fire the editor.

Alternatives I've seen in this thread are a ball of wadded up aluminum foil, a wooden scraper, abrasive pads, and stiff plastic bristles (EDIT: and an onion). This proves once again that the HN comments section is often better than the article itself.

<comment><USER50> I let my grill heat up and then use an onion to clean it off. works wonders and adds a bit of flavor, too.

</comment></comment><comment><USER51> I think this exactly article was already discussed here: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12409425](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12409425)

There were some good tips on how to avoid the brushes for once.

<comment><USER52> Yea, I remember when it was posted last time on here. I think HN is the only place I've heard about this; have been using those things for most of my life without realizing this could be an issue.

</comment></comment><comment><USER53> My solution:

1\. Use a grill with wide slats instead of round steel bars 2\. Run the grill on high for ten minutes after cooking to burn everything to a fine ash 3\. Use grill mats when possible so I don't have to clean the grill to begin with

I just use damp paper towels to clean up the grill before I use it since I burn everything off after the previous cook session.

</comment><comment><USER51> The easiest way to clean it is:

1\. Let the grill get hot, simple by waiting some minutes with the charcoal on fire

2\. Rub with something to clean old grit, with paper, half of an onion, piece of fat from some meat and any sponge slightly wet being good.

<comment><USER54> I think you mixed up the order of step 2. The piece of fat should be at the end to lubricate the cooking service. Wetting it again after would be counter productive.

Also I don't recommend a regular sponge for the water cleansing step due to the materials involved not necessarily be heat safe. Soaked paper towels work great.

<comment><USER55> I would not use paper towels on the same basis you choose not to use a sponge.

<comment><USER54> It's likely not ideal but I rather breathe and possibly consume trace amounts of burned paper than burned sponge.

EDIT: _... and immediately after writing this I googled "paper towel carcinogens" and ruined my day._

<comment><USER55> Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER56> having worked in a commercial kitchen with a grill station, believe it or not the easiest thing to do with dirty grates was to throw them in the dishwasher or soak them overnight with the soda fountain tips in a mild solution of bleach. our grates were mild steel and cast iron.

We would start our grills at 5-6 AM for breakfast sausage and ham, which did a great job of re-seasoning the grates if youre curious. day shift would take over from there with the station menu from our chefs. Generally we were careful to avoid sticky marinades or mops for the grill to keep things tidy and sane. Ribs were cooked in the oven, then transferred/finalized on the grill station. When this got too cumbersome we leased a commercial smoker for a few years.

speaking from experience though, the sanest way to keep those grates from getting insane was to wipe them down as you go with an oily onion or oily rag in some tongs. Avoid teriyaki or yogurt marinades like the plague and never leave the station "wet." get to things before they set, especially proteins.

</comment><comment> mr-roboto So what are some alternatives?

<comment><USER57> Seriously you can clean them the same way you clean any other greasy cooking utensil. Those green plastic scrubbers (like scotch guard) work fine.

I have a small bbq and I just take the grills off and put them in the dishwasher! That has a non-stick coating so I wouldn't want to use a wire brush anyway. The large bbq just gets a hand wash.

<comment><USER58> What kind of nonstick coating survives the high temperatures present in a grill?

<comment><USER59> Probably a ceramic coating.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER60> I'm inclined to primarily blame the general loss of consumer goods build quality over the past ~25 years.

What proportion of these brushes giving up their bristles in sufficient quantities to be on Surgeons' radars were made in China?

Growing up we had zero plastic-handled brush options. They were all well- built, wood-handled beasts and the bristles would be mutilated and disgusting prompting replacement long before they were falling out of the holder.

You can't even buy a manual can-opener that doesn't deform into a useless paperweight on first use at a big-box store anymore. Why expect their grill brushes to be any better?

Edit: To clarify, I've seen many plastic grill brushes on shelves at stores. It has become increasingly difficult to find anything made of wood in the kitchen-related isles of stores like Wal-Mart and Target. There are obvious problems with a plastic-handled grill brush. The tendency is to heat the grill prior to brushing, which softens the plastic, loosening the grip on the bristles over time.

</comment><comment><USER61> Does it make a difference how the wire brush is made? I know of two types, let me call one flat and the other wound. Flat is where wire bristles are inset into a flat head on a handle. Wound is were the bristles are held by wires twisting around (which often have a triangle head for BBQ brushes and are made the same as typical bottle brush).

Are they equally bad?

<comment><USER62> if you're talking about these: [https://www.buygrilldaddy.com/assets/images/TriBrush_other2%...](https://www.buygrilldaddy.com/assets/images/TriBrush_other2%20GW001506.jpg)

I think that's just as bad. Small enough to be easy to miss, only attached at one end. There's also this kind of wound one, where the wire is a heavier gauge, and is attached at two ends: [https://smile.amazon.com/Clean-Grill- Brush-Bristle-Barbecue/...](https://smile.amazon.com/Clean-Grill-Brush- Bristle-Barbecue/dp/B01MYC1C2D?sa-no-redirect=1)

those are, afaik safer, though I don't think anyone has studied the issue.

<comment><USER61> Nice! I had never seen that round kind where the wire is one continuous piece instead of using many small bristles.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER63> Wow, such a surprisingly severe consequence for (mis)using an innocuous tool as a wire brush!

Incidentally, our household switched away from brushes a few years ago; we stumbled on a very quick and effective solution after dad got in to reloading. A few of the shorter 2.75" shells loaded with rock salt from the 12ga work wonders on the grill.

<comment><USER64> I would love to see video of this if you aren't joking!

</comment></comment><comment><USER65> These products need to be pulled from stores. Use a copper sponge with soap and water. Cleans the grill up great.

<comment><USER66> Yeah soap isn't really an option if you have a real barbeque with a well seasoned cast iron grill.

<comment><USER24> I've read that's a common myth, that a little soapy water for a few minutes is going to do nothing to a polymerized fat coating that was seared into the pitted surface of cast iron under high heat, but even if you were concerned about it, a brief re-seasoning afterward would be more than enough to restore any stripping.

<comment><USER67> Low pH cleaners are fine. Higher pH such as dishwasher detergent will strip the seasoning.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER68> Last time I saw this here in 2016 I tossed my wire brush and got wooden scraper. It works pretty well.

</comment><comment><USER69> I use chainmail to clean my grill to avoid this very thing. I also use a power-washer occasionally.

</comment><comment><USER70> A trick I learned from a friend is to cover all the grills with sheets of foil, close the lid and heat the bbq to a high temperature for a short period of time and then remove the foil. Most of the crud should come off easily after that.

<comment><USER71> All I have ever done is give the BBQ a bit of time to heat up before I plan on actually cooking the food. A few minutes in high heat chars any remnants of the last BBQ session and then I just knock the stuff of the top with a spatula before throwing that day's food on.

</comment></comment><comment><USER72> I went to buy a BBQ brush last year and all they had were metal bristle brushes. I was surprised given all the bad publicity about this. Needless to say, I didn't buy a brush that day. Any recommendations for a good non-metal brush?

<comment><USER73> Just a chunk of wood works quite well. If you want to get fancy you can use a file to round out some grooves but that will happen naturally.

[https://www.amazon.com/Scraper-Natural-Barbecue-Non- bristles...](https://www.amazon.com/Scraper-Natural-Barbecue-Non-bristles- Cleaning/dp/B074CW69L1/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1522333911&sr=8-9&keywords=wood+bbq+scraper)

<comment><USER72> You reminded me that last year I used a brick and a piece of wood - combination did take off some crud. Also tried some of that chemical spray - which didn't seem to do a thin.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER74> An acquaintance once told me she had accidentally inhaled a sewing needle as a child. She had loaded it into a straw and was planning to blowgun it at her little brother. But she made the horrible mistake of deeply inhaling _after_ the straw was in her mouth thereby inhaling the needle.

IIRC the doctor advised her to eat cotton. She eventually passed the needle in a wad of cotton. Personally I am skeptical of this story. Does anyone feel that this approach might work when a bristle from a BBQ brush is not recoverable by surgery ?

</comment><comment><USER75> I use a chain scrubber to excellent effect - the same that I use for my cast iron. I find it does a better job than the bristle brush, though it does tend to get my hands a little messier.

[https://www.amazon.com/Ringer-Original-Stainless-Cleaner- Pat...](https://www.amazon.com/Ringer-Original-Stainless-Cleaner- Patented/dp/B00FKBR1ZG) (This is a direct link)

</comment><comment><USER76> Just take the grill off the BBQ at the end once it has cooled and wrap it in wet newspaper, leave over night and wipe down the next day. Like new.

<comment><USER77> What is this "newspaper" of which you speak?

Seriously though, i only buy newspapers now when i need the paper for table coverings for craft activities and such.

<comment><USER62> newspaper is also very useful for chimney starters, the best way of starting a charcoal fire.

<comment><USER78> Try a Looftlighter (or something similar) if you've never. You don't have to use paper/chimney anymore. I started smoking things about 10 years ago and have tried it all. With regard to speed, ease, and cleanup you can't beat electric. Wax starters are another good option if you're out of range of A/C. I'd put my old chimney in third at this point. I'd rather recycle the paper quite honestly.

I don't cook meats anymore but still use my BGE quite a bit.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER79> Serious question: how do I clean my grill instead?

<comment><USER80> I was worried about this as well and found a nice product called CharGon that I've been using since last May, no bristles and it makes short work of cleaning the grill:

[https://www.amazon.com/CharGon-PATENTED-PERFORMANCE- CLEANING...](https://www.amazon.com/CharGon-PATENTED-PERFORMANCE-CLEANINGS- cleaning/dp/B00UI1X0L2)

I am not affiliated with the company at all, just like the product and know it's safe

<comment><USER78> ^^^^^^^^^ THIS.

I tried them all, it's so simple and works great. It's reasonable cost / build quality as well. I think it's ~$20.00 on Amazon and it's not flimsy and the wood is quality with decent heft. The leather tie it came with failed quickly, but the tool itself will last forever. I've had mine for over a year and a half now. I'm not affiliated in any way other than wishing I would have thought of it years ago.

I won't eat anything off anyone's grill who uses any wire brushes anymore, there's no reason to risk it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER81> I just never clean my grill... problem solved.

<comment><USER82> Came here to say the same thing. Frankly I didn't know a grill had to be cleaned…

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> Is there anything better than finding there are 263 comments here on this article? I'm settling in for while.

</comment><comment><USER83> I got freaked out when I learned about this a while back.

It seems wire brushes for grill cleaning come in various levels of quality, and it's the lower-quality ones that tend to have this issue. The problem is that you can't truly know the quality of your brush until you use it. (And either find bristles in your good or not.)

<comment><USER33> If you like a wire brush for the grill, go to a hardware store, and buy a wire brush with really coarse bristles. They are probably in the paint section, or with the welding supplies, not the BBQ grill section. The bristles are about an inch long and quite stiff.

</comment></comment><comment><USER84> My brother got a bristle from a grill lodged in his throat, it took a couple trips to the surgeon to remove and was extremely painful. And I still have a bristle brush, but I always scrape with the straight edge a few times afterwords (ever since).

</comment><comment><USER85> I literally just went to an ENT doctor to get a bristle removed from my throat yesterday. It didn't effect my breathing or eating, but it was very uncomfortable. I went a week without getting xrays of my throat. It's not fun.

</comment><comment><USER86> I've been using a small square of chainmail to clean my grill (and occasionally my cast iron pans) and follow it up with a damp paper towel It works well but is kind of a PITA compared to a wire brush.

<comment><USER62> those chainmail squares are often marketed for cleaning cast iron based on the canard that soap is bad for cast iron. I'd much rather use soap than steel. Steel's certainly gonna dig into the seasoning.

<comment><USER87> seriously though, don't use soap. Just get a nylon scrubber or stiff bristled nylon(or whatever) brush and use salt. Soap is going to remove the seasoning and probably leave a soapy flavor behind

<comment><USER62> This is incorrect. I can show you my cast iron pans and various pieces of carbon steel which are well-seasoned and do not impart soapy tastes. Soap does not damage the seasoning on a pan: [https://www.seriouseats.com/2014/11/the- truth-about-cast-iro...](https://www.seriouseats.com/2014/11/the-truth-about- cast-iron.html).

Every cleaning solution that doesn't include a surfactant is worse. It's slower, more labor, intensive, more water-intensive, and it leaves baked-on crud behind. The latter two are both much worse for cast iron than soap.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER88> I grill probably twice a week.

I rarely clean the grill, it doesn't seem to make much of a difference whether there's any buildup on the bars or not.

I've read about this some months ago, what a nightmare scenario!

</comment><comment><USER89> My father in law got sick of crappy brushes, so he created one: [http://grillbros.com](http://grillbros.com)

It works really well for a "standard" grill.

</comment><comment><USER34> I read about this a couple years ago and now live in complete terror of bristles. Unfortunately the alternates are kind of a pain to use, but hey, it beats what these articles describe.

</comment><comment><USER90> Freaky. Are iron wool scrapers safe? Or do the fibers affect you too?

<comment> xkcd-sucks Iron rusts, so it breaks down in your body pretty quickly. Brass doesn't rust, so brass wires stick around forever.

</comment></comment><comment><USER91> the trick is to brush the grill before it gets hot. you can always rinse the gunk out of your grill brush but you can't un-melt the plastic that keeps the brisles attached. Give it a quick second brushing after it's heated up, if you want. Since it is already mostly clean, you don't spend as much time loosening/melting your brush. I figured this out when I found one of those bristles on some ribs I made. Fortunately, it was before I put it in my mouth.

</comment><comment><USER92> I once found a bit of wire in a sausage I was eating that I'd bought from my favorite local sausage maker. I've been too scared to try their sausages again :(

</comment><comment><USER93> If the grates are removable, wouldn't the clean function (crazy high heat) of your oven clean them? Basically turns everything into easy to wash off ash.

</comment><comment><USER94> Had one stuck in my throat. It's absolutely terrifying

<comment><USER95> My wife found a bristle in her burrito last year. Luckily, she noticed it before swallowing. The place kindly offered her a free burrito as a consolation :(

</comment></comment><comment><USER96> What kind of cheap brushes are being used? I've used Weber bristle brushes for years (the spiral ones) and have never seen a single detached bristle.

</comment><comment><USER97> This entire comment thread is the most Reddit thing that I've ever seen on Hacker News (and I'm not sure how I feel about it)

</comment><comment><USER98> I got a grill brush with bamboo bristles. Works great. Metal wire brushes are terrifying.

</comment><comment><USER99> I had this happen once at a Chinese rwstaurant. I should have complained more I guess =\

</comment><comment><USER100> What are people using as an alternative to a bristle brush?

<comment><USER101> I was told to try cutting an onion in half and dragging it up and down the grates (after warming up for a bit). After trying it I would say that it's not perfect but does a decent job of removing the big stuff. I'm still looking for a more reusable solution since I like to grill a lot.

Maybe just a wet rag would work? I've seen hibachi chefs use them on a flat grill along with a scraper.

</comment></comment><comment><USER102> After serving my family a delicious snack, I typically smash into my grill full speed with my Hummer H3, super hemi. That knocks all the nasties away.

</comment><comment><USER103> (2016)

<comment><USER104> Updated, thanks!

</comment></comment><comment> awinter-py If the surgeon can't access the bristle w/out damaging surrounding tissue, they should use a strong electromagnet on the axis of the wire.

(Don't try this at home).

if the angle is bad (threatens other structures as it comes out), potentially clip the wire as it emerges.</comment>


Test how sensible you are to ASMR sounds - <AUTHOR> http://asmrion.com/?noisetest <comment><USER2> Questions for anyone who may know:

Is ASMR, or rather the sensation of it related to, or are there any parallels between ASMR and white noise?

I ask as someone who doesn't really get much from common things I see labelled as "ASMR triggers", in fact in some cases quite the opposite (audio clips of deep whispering directly into a microphone for example-make me deeply uncomfortable and want to be removed as quickly as possible from the audio source-yet this is a deeply popular ASMR trigger for others-which is fine)-leading me to think I might be one of those people with a mild case of undiagnosed misophonia ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misophonia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misophonia)), yet static noise (white, brown, pink) are absolute musts for sleep because of a severe case of fully-diagnosed tinnitus.

There's no tingly feelings or emotional responses, the white noise just effectively masks the ringing-which in a well insulated and quiet enough room, can be (paradoxically) deafening.

</comment><comment><USER3> 's/sensible/sensitive/'</comment>


Types of Speakers to Ban from your Tech Conference - <AUTHOR> http://www.bandwidthblog.com/2011/05/24/2-types-of-speakers-to-ban-from-your-tech-conference I've attended a number of tech conferences in South Africa and at every one of them one of two topics seem to raise it's head, and frankly I think we need to ban the types of people pushing these topics on stage from speaking… <comment><USER3> While you admit on Twitter [1] that your post is formulaic to get attention, I can't exactly let you get away with your second point regarding VCs and Angels. You are in Cape Town, which tells me we can be visiting different conferences or having very different experiences, but in the case of those I've seen/participated in, the story is _very_ different. The angels I frequently see speak _have_ indeed written lines of code. The fact that you're posting this on this very site is ironic, considering who runs it.

Want to look at a few high profile examples?

* Chris Dixon: needs no intro, coded many lines of code at and before hunch.

* Conway: a salesman in the past, you take this one (although he's seen more startups than you've written LOC)

* Hoffman: has written many LOC

* Thiel: yup

* Andreessen: I've seen it first-hand

* Bezos: yup

* Sacca: business guy, no LOC

* Paul Graham: you're using his LOC to drive traffic to your site

The list goes on. Fact is there _are_ angel investors and VCs that have not written software, but since when does that truly actually matter when they're giving you advice on how to run a business, namely finding out what people want and give it to them? Your comment in this very thread about banning speakers who use office for their slides (who cares?) tells me of your naivety, but here's a final tip: be formulaic all you want, but talk about things you know for a fact.

[1] <https://twitter.com/jasonadriaan/status/72972319080976384>

<comment><AUTHOR> Hey @f. Firstly you're reading my tweets out of context. Yep I'm sure the environment is vastly different and that VCs and Angels are more salted in the States. The names on your list I would obviously PAY to see. But this doesn't hold true for the guys surfacing in Africa and asked to speak at conferences.

<comment><USER4> You did a smart thing (from a vote-getting perspective) by omitting the words "South Africa" from your title.

<comment><AUTHOR> lol

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Completely agree re the social media gurus. Ugh!

Regarding investors: I think you're describing a quality issue, rather than a subject matter problem. Many investors used to be entrepreneurs (mine were) and were massively successful. Starting entrepreneurs can learn a ton from these guys and they are pure gold every step of the way.

Then you get angel investors who got rich through some other means. e.g. through inheritance or stock options in a company they had nothing to do with starting or running. These are often to be avoided for two reasons. 1. They want to be the CEO they never were - in your company. 2. They have no experience or knowledge about creating and building a business beyond what they read online.

What makes it worse is that they and the entrepreneurs they invest in see their wealth as qualifying them to advise or participate in the business. Avoid these guys as speakers at events and as investors.

There is a third class that I've neglected to mention. Super-angels or experienced VC's can also be very helpful through their extensive dealings with other companies they've invested in, often in your space. Super-angels who are former entrepreneurs are the absolute best early stage investors.

ps: Greetings from a fellow South African. [based in the US]

<comment><AUTHOR> Hello there from Cape Town :)

Thanks for the insight, yeah I agree totally. I'm sure there are a number of VC's/Angels worth listening to but the vast majority of them don't know what they're talking about imho.

<comment><USER4> _I'm sure there are a number of VC's/Angels worth listening to but the vast majority of them don't know what they're talking about imho._

If you mean in the South African context, then you are probably right. Has South Africa produced any notable software startup successes? Vinny Lingam got some press for that Yola/Synthesite app, but that's it (Shuttleworth doesn't fit in this category since he made money by selling his CA).

It's one of the concerns I have with Google Umbono as well - how well can the angels recognise potential for success if they haven't had any themselves?

I see a lot of cargo-cultism, but something is missing.

<comment><USER6> "It's one of the concerns I have with Google Umbono as well - how well can the angels recognise potential for success if they haven't had any themselves?"

Wait, how do you know which angel investors are involved? On their website, they wrote "We will not be publicizing the names and details of our Angel investors without their express permission. A typical Angel with Umbono will be a tech savvy entrepreneur with an established track record in the industry."

<comment><USER4> Fair point, I looked at their mentors and assumed their benchmarks for angels were similar: <http://www.google.co.za/intl/en/umbono/people.html>

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Also the sexist ones who harass the female delegates.

</comment><comment><USER8> It's not the material that makes a session bad, it's the speaker. Ok, that's a bit harsh, and some material is more interesting than others, but it's easy for a highly technical session to be dead-boring, and it's also possible for a session by a marketing type, or investor to be super interesting.

An engaging speaker will expand your understanding - bringing elements of their expertise to you in a way which you can leverage it yourself. An engaging speaker is one that takes you outside your comfort zone, but at the same time gives you some practical encouragement or advice that you can take away and use yourself.

Of course getting the 30 minute "you must be on facebook and twitter" speech is pretty dull to people already on those platforms. But understanding the concepts behind why, and when, one media works over another, or how to use those media to reach your core market can be enormously interesting, and rewarding. Or it can be deadly dull. It all depends on the speaker.

Investors are another enormous source of information, but it takes more than just fluff to make a great presentation. It's the speakers ability to reach you, and keep you interested, which separate great from average speakers.

By contrast I've been to tech events where the speaker was clearly a tech- head, and shouldn't be allowed near a stage under any circumstances.

Presenting is a skill, which can be developed and improved. Don't knock the material, knock the presenter. Better yet, start presenting yourself to improve the standard accepted.

(funny story: I was in Australia at an event and there was some dude from India doing a pitch on out-sourcing. The mic was having trouble, and his accent was hard to understand at times. I was at the back, and next to me a true blue Aussie was doing his emails. When he finished that, about 30 minutes into the presentation, he looks up, and in his normal (very loud) speaking voice asks "what the ____is this guy talking about?". )

<comment><USER9> Sorry. I must bite.

Your little anecdote added neither substance or context, rather than presenting a very thinly coated attempt at making fun of a guy with a different accent. Atleast that's what it felt like, reading it. So do explain why it was the presenter's fault that the "true blue Aussie" typing up his long email did not feel he should follow the presentation?

Not everyone can be a Guy Kawasaki. But over time, people can aspire to be like him, and they can do that by having the balls to stand up and speak to a crowd every chance they get. Sometimes you miss, but eventually you will figure out what works with a crowd.

So next time, skip the thinly veiled attempts at xenophobia and lay out a compelling argument instead.

<comment><USER8> Sorry, my goal wasn't to make any sort of racist implication. Rather my point was that a boring speaker (which he was, and I didn't make clear) is, well boring. Personally I love Aussies because of their no-nonsense approach. This guy just said what everyone was thinking. In too many conferences I go to everyone just sits around pretending to look interested.

My apologies for any offense caused.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Certainly blog posting is somewhat useful, but give feedback directly to the organizer. Assuming that the blog post alone was intended to fill that role, I'd suggest a direct email or perhaps even phone call with the organizers to talk one on one.

As an organizer who just put my first event (indieconf) on last year, and am planning my second iteration, honest feedback is golden. I had a few people who shot from the hip (thanks!), and I'm doing what I can to address those points this time around, but they were _mostly_ minor points. I'm left thinking either no one really cared all that much, or it really was so amazing there's nothing to improve on - I don't think either extreme is true though.

I learned I did something poorly, and am trying to rectify it - <USER2> feedback about particular sessions. Almost all the comment cards given out after the sessions were good or great - a few neutral - but less than a handful that were _bad_ reviews. I initially thought "wow, we did awesome". I then realized people who'd left a session because it wasn't meeting their needs were not filling out the cards in the first place(!). Any ideas about how to collect that sort of feedback, short of specifically asking people to come find me or leave a note at the front desk about egregiously bad experiences? I've noticed people tend to bottle things up at an event, then blog about things later when there's absolutely no chance of fixing anything.

<comment><AUTHOR> I guess I could to that but it would be an e-mail to like hundreds of people, easier just to blog about it. Also this is much more entertaining :P

<comment><USER10> Was 'the organizer' hundreds of people? Maybe I didn't understand the type of function it was. Typically there's just one or a small group of people who coordinate an event like that. Giving them your direct feedback will help make future events better. :)

<comment><AUTHOR> Well the post is my reflections on a number of conferences. That's why I said hundreds of people, because I've been to plenty of em. :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I stopped going to conferences in my area for this very reason. Even the "unconferences" that are supposed to be by and for developers are riddled with marketing people and money people. Both very important roles to be sure, but I cannot fathom why they continue to overwhelm tech conferences.

They should be at marketing conferences and business conferences.

<comment><USER12> "I cannot fathom why they continue to overwhelm tech conferences". Because they're on a fishing trip, the catch is devs and the bait is money. Hackathons are the new tech conferences because you have to _prove_ your tech skills to get in.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> sed 's/vc_angels/bureaucrats_politicians/g'

I recently attended a conference that billed itself as being focused on "entrepreneurship and innovation." One of the speakers was Aneesh Chopra, the "CTO of the United States" and the other was a representative of the inappropriately titled "Startup America Partnership." We were also treated to twenty minute stump by a Ben Nelson, the Senator that pissed off the entire state of Nebraska when he extorted pounds of pork in exchange for his vote on Obamacare.

None of the speakers did more than illustrate that the bureaucracy they represented was/is antithetical to entrepreneurship and innovation, and I've never seen the energy get sucked out of a room full of energetic people more quickly.

</comment><comment><USER14> I guess it depends on your bias, if you're only interested in coding, then you should stay away from marketing/business conferences ... that said, I can relate to the idea that so called 'social media gurus' are snake oil salesmen.

<comment><USER15> True, but the title does explicitly state TECH conferences. I think those aren't the same as markeing/business conferences :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> I agree to an extent. I've heard a lot of VC's that I really enjoyed, I love hearing their opinions on which sectors are heating up and where the future of technology as a business lies.

That said, VC speakers, especially on panels, seem to devolve into a discussion of the VC industry. Whether it's "frothy", deal term trends, etc, etc. The stuff that is relatively easy to look up but doesn't have a whole ton of bearing on a real business. ("Real" in the sense that you'd do it anyway regardless of how/when/if funding happens.)

</comment><comment><USER17> Also ban:

3) Speakers who say 'uhmm' before and after each sentence.

4) Speakers who read bullets from powerpoint slides.

<comment><USER18> 5) Speakers who take snack breaks in the middle of their talk, audible munching and all.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> Am I the only one who was expecting "Female bloggers who won't sleep with you" to be one of the categories?

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2571874>

Always pleasantly surprised that although HN lives in the internet, it is not of the internet.

</comment><comment><USER20> There's a third type: RMS.

<comment><USER21> I'm not a big RMS fan, but I'd pay to see him talk.

He's accomplished far more than perhaps anyone on HN. Like it or not, he started and nurtured all this (Free Software/OSS).</comment></comment>


Full Self-Driving HW3 - <AUTHOR> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlThdr3O5Qo <comment><USER2> I am curious to see how it does at a 4-way left turn with a light. I don't think that was in the video route.

<comment><USER3> Any system lower that SAE Level 5 is allowed to ask for human assistance at any moment. It can literally just start buzzing and ask the driver to take over for that left hand turn. That's the sucky part of the UX, so why would the marketers showcase it? I bet that wasn't even on the table when they wrote the script for that video.

The delay before the car's human needs to take over is one of the things making the difference between level 3 (human has to have "eyes on the road" and be able to take over in less than a few seconds) and level 4 (the car can put itself into a safe situation if takeover is not coming quickly). I really thing level 3 is insanity because of this short delay. I wish Tesla all the luck in getting to level 4.

That being said, Waymo has shown that their cars can do 4 way left hand turns.

Level 5 doesn't need human assistance in any part of its driving envelope, so manufacturers can omit the driving controls.</comment></comment>


Building a professional design tool on the web using C++ and Emscripten - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/figma-design/building-a-professional-design-tool-on-the-web-6332ed4f1fcc <comment><USER2> Hats off to you on the implementation and for being so technically ambitious.

I'm wondering why you exactly decided to go this route? I was expecting your app to be very graphically intensive or have some other kind of demanding requirements. When I went to the site it appears it's some kind of collaborative design tool? Not saying these tools don't require a top-notch UI. Maybe for manipulating and scrolling/scaling huge canvases? Coming from a mapping background, I can totally see this as something lacking in the browser. There aren't many primitives for creating these kinds of image-based interfaces.

There's certainly a trade-off between having super-fast performance and a completely custom rendering engine and adopting a not-often used delivery mechanism and stack (C++/asm.js). I'd imagine it's hard to find people who have all that expertise, it's hard enough finding a good frontend dev in the conventional technologies of the web.

Good luck on your product launch, can't wait to use your UI and play around with it.

<comment><AUTHOR> People normally associate WebGL with 3D game content, but it's for 2D too! I decided to build our own GPU rendering pipeline for the performance and document size benefits you mentioned and also so we can guarantee top-quality, consistent rendering across platforms. A GPU rendering pipeline is actually a pretty normal technology choice for a cross-platform desktop app. It hasn't been too hard to find people with that expertise to work on the editor. We're looking at people with game development or browser development backgrounds.

<comment><USER3> Interesting approach... It reminds me a bit of Glamor, which is 2D X Windows primitives on top of OpenGL.

[http://keithp.com/blogs/glamor-hacking/](http://keithp.com/blogs/glamor- hacking/)

[http://mirror.linux.org.au/linux.conf.au/2014/Wednesday/52-B...](http://mirror.linux.org.au/linux.conf.au/2014/Wednesday/52-Building_2D_rendering_acceleration_with_OpenGL_- _Eric_Anholt.mp4)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Slick.

Bonus is that Android/iOS is probably just a matter of hooking into just GL, Input & Filesystem APIs.

I'd really love the hear the painpoints of emscripten in production for an actual application. Most of the uses seems to be either games or demos.

<comment><AUTHOR> The biggest pain points when using emscripten are debugging, compilation time, and code size. Debugging means poking through what is the JavaScript equivalent of assembly code but without a debugger that understands it (no segfaults on null access, strings are just numbers, etc.). The emscripten toolchain doesn't include an incremental linker yet and compilation time is limited by C++'s dumb compilation model. C++ also generates a lot of code if you use the standard library and templates (this is C++'s fault, not emscripten). In practice, we have an Xcode project hooked up to build the same C++ code and use that as our IDE. That way we can mostly treat emscripten as just a build target. I would only do it if it's worth the tradeoff.

<comment><USER5> mischanix has a good point. Why not whip up a local native version and use that for feature development and debugging? Then you can just do final QA on the emscripten version.

And if it works well enough the native version might be a good option for your power users to get better performance.

<comment><AUTHOR> We're using Xcode instead of Visual Studio but that's essentially our process. Right now we're focusing our effort on getting the product right on the web first so native is currently on the back burner. A native version will definitely be a good option later on for power users.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> It's against HN's rules to get friends/colleague to upvote posts, so please don't do that. It tends to get stories flagged and accounts penalized.

This is an interesting article so we've turned the penalty off.

<comment><USER7> Does that policy also apply to downvotes?

<comment><USER6> Absolutely. If you (or anyone) think you see signs of organized downvoting, please email firstname.lastname@example.com so we can look at the data.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I am sceptical about the ability of this software to grow.</comment>


Ask HN: Why is there no really successful Ruby on Rails CMS solution - <AUTHOR> I know there are a lot of Rails CMS solutions out there but the ones that became popular a few years ago are now pretty much dead.  The newer ones don't seem to be gaining traction and there are now so many half-decent options that it is really hard to pick which to use. What is the reason for this?  Is it likely to change or is there something about Rails that makes it unlikely there will ever be one dominant CMS solution? <comment><USER2> Because the Rails community seems to prefer small, single-purpose gems over frameworks/multi-purpose gems. There are not a lot of plug-n-play gems aside from Spree for e-commerce. And besides, Rails makes it super easy to spin up a custom CMS, so using a gem is pretty overkill. For example, to build a blog, all you need is a few models (users, posts, maybe comments), CRUD controllers, admin auth with Devise, Shrine/Paperclip/Carrierwave for image uploads and you're done. And all of that can be spun up rather quickly.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes, I think a lot of people in the Rails community do think using a gem for CMS functionality is overkill. I strongly disagree with that opinion though but before trying to make the counter argument I would like to understand your point of view better. Have you written a real world app that require WordPress like CMS functionality that you were able to code in less than 40 hours?

<comment><USER3> I don't use Rails, but a similar framework in Python. My clients love my CMS. The reason being that I can tailor an admin backend to their specific needs. Every single button in my backend has a purpose, and all the more complex settings are hidden behind code.

In a WordPress site, you practically need to be a WordPress dev just to do basic modifications.

<comment><USER4> Out of curiosity what framework do you use in Python?

<comment><USER3> I use web2py. I find it strikes a great balance between having an elegant API and getting shit done. And it generates Bootstrap compatible forms out of the box :)

<comment><USER4> Thanks, I'll definitely take a look at it. How does it compare to Django and Flask?

<comment><USER3> I found that Django makes too many assumptions for my taste, and you really need to fight it if you don't like them. You can get around the bad design decisions by using plugins, but they're not all compatible with each other and I found it got messy.

Flask on the other hand, comes with too few features out of the box. Getting an application with user auth, file uploads, an ORM and form generation can take over a week to set up perfectly.

Web2py was created by a professor at DePaul University who got tired of Django after teaching it in a web development course. He built Web2py to have feature parity, but, IMHO, he has a much better aesthetic when it comes to API design.

So rather than a design-by-comittee behemoth like Django, you get a succinct and intuitive API designed by a great programmer.

Beyond that, it has a handful of features that I find unmatched, notably its data grids and bootstrap compatibility by default.

I really love the bootstrap compatibility because it allows me to grab a theme off wrapbootstrap.com and everything just works without any tweaking. For small projects it works out perfectly :)

It also has a very active Google Group where the framework's author frequently helps people out!

The only thing I miss is the Werkzeug debugger that Flask comes with by default, and which can bet set up to run on Django. That thing is beautiful. But Web2py's debugger is good enough, and Web2py surpasses the competition in every other way.

To really grok how amazing web2py is, I recommend working through the tutorial. It's not too long and it shows off Web2py quite nicely. A lot of what makes web2py so great are subtle design decisions. It fixes almost all the problems I had with the other frameworks and introduces practically none of its own.

<comment><USER4> Thank for the answer

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I ran into the same issue a couple of years ago. We had an existing WordPress site. Issues were continuous paving over by consultants resulting in a overweight and fragile site with zero support for true mobile-responsive content authoring. When we discussed our needs with consultants the universal response was to just use WordPress. Clearly Wordpress had frozen this space with their just barely good-enough solution. The other factor at play was the rise of site builder SaaS platforms like SquareSpace and Wix. Their tooling was very slick, but not something you could consider a true development platform, i.e. something that developers and content authors would both consider truly meeting their needs. I liked Locomotive a lot and they used to have a page on their site that really nailed the WordPress shortcomings, but they were in the midst of working on their next major release and we couldn't wait. We ended up going with a cloud based, platform neutral CMS, prismic.io. We got our responsive authoring capabilities and fairly easy integration with our Rails stack. It has worked well. I think our content authors would say they would like more control over the presentation, but I would say that is part of the reason why we like it, because they can't hijack the entire page which inevitably leads to quality issues because the authors are not prepared to test their work in multiple browsers and mobile devices. It also lacks the out of the box blogging structure that WordPress has, but if you are looking for a more versatile publishing capability then it may fit the bill for you. The market has evolved, I'm sure, and I have not kept up with it. I would recommend looking at Locomotive and prismic or other cloud based CMS options but I don't think anything is going to emerge as a dominant CMS platform al la WordPress any time soon, if ever.

</comment><comment><USER6> LocomotiveCMS is very good, I use it for countless client projects. The only thing I dislike is the reliance on MongoDB, which basically was a no-go for me in the beginning but it runs fine for years now.

<comment><AUTHOR> Locomotive does look interesting but I can't seeing it expanding much beyond a niche market. The use of MongoDB is certainly one reason. Also it seems to hit a bitter spot: a bit too complex for a non technical person but doesn't really give much power to a dev/

<comment><USER6> Have you actually looked at it? It's capable of doing a lot.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I may be off the mark but I feel like managed web hosts play no small part in this. Managed web hosts that run Apache still almost predominantly support PHP only for a scripting language (if you don't count Perl CGI stuff). For us in silicon valley this seems unthinkable, but these web hosts still run a ton of sites on the internet.</comment>


Bootstrapping an Online Fabric Shop and Growing to $20k per month - <AUTHOR> https://www.starterstory.com/stories/fridays-off-fabric-shop <comment><USER2> I run an almost identical fabric shop online. 20k/month revenue is great but remember this is not a SaaS with unlimited scale and low costs. It's actually a very traditional business model, and margins here are only going to about 20-30%, potentially a lot less if you have to pay for your storage space.

You buy the fabric, typically you'll double the price when selling to customers. Then you take off additional postage fees/packaging (note the flat fees on postage), payment fees (3-4%), discounts, returns, shopify monthly fees, accounting software etc.

You'll spend about 50% of your day cutting & packing orders, taking them to the post office etc. (or you can employ someone to help) and the rest of the time taking shots for instagram, sourcing new suppliers, working on SEO/blogging and doing admin.

If you're good at marketing you can shift quite a lot of fabric, but it will take you about a year to get your stock levels up to a sustainable amount to pay yourself a wage. If you want a real shop front you will generate most of your profit from running classes as the costs for a high street store are significantly higher than shopify and you gain little in terms of footfall vs online traffic.

This isn't a get rich quick model but over time it works well and is replicable at scale.

<comment><USER3> > If you're good at marketing you can shift quite a lot of fabric

For me marketing is always the toughest part .

How do you do your marketing ?

What tips can you offer us that save the most time and money spent ?

<comment><USER4> tl;dr: Learn retail.

It's kind of funny that people will get advice to get CS degrees, take a boot camp, learn a language, etc. to execute on an idea, but for soft skills you never see classes for business or marketing recommended. People could take 2-3+ business/marketing classes in the time it takes to learn React from zero Javascript knowledge. Instead, people are told to sign up to Stripe Atlas or Shopify and Instagram. "...and then a miracle occurs."[1]

Imagine a bizdev person saying, "for me, programming is always the toughest part, any tips?" and the response being, "Oh, you should definitely sign up for Stack Overflow. Simplifies things quite a bit." This may reflect a conceit on the part of programmers that it's soooo much more complicated and important, and the business side is full of chads and beckys who talk too loud on speakerphone (yes these people are a cancer, but that's beside my point).

Biz/Mark has its own, shall we say, "Data Structures and Algorithms" to it, there's just no one set of books that everyone (...) agrees on. Even so, people have been selling fabric for thousands of years, there's not much that the internet changes about that, or many if not most other business categories.

1\. [https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4003/4633000725_8817dcedb9_b.j...](https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4003/4633000725_8817dcedb9_b.jpg)

<comment><USER5> Look around for what I call The MicroConf Crowd. Practical advice on the business part of business abounds. Books courses and more. Often targeted at programmers.

The Independent Consulting Manual is a good place to start, then go down the list of authors and read their other stuff.

They often do a christmas sale too.

Follow Patio11 on twitter, read his stuff. Follow Amy Hoy, do 30x500.

Then spread out from there.

If you're funded, great! All the same advice applies, you just have more gasoline to pour on the fire. Try things faster.

<comment><USER6> Ah yes this, I am lucky to discover the MicroConf Crowd early on in HackerNews.

Patio11 taught me how to raise my salary in my full time job.

Amy Hoy got me off the couch and start building products (that user wants).

Not to forget advice from Rob Wailing, Kai Davis etc too.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Note that she did something good from the very start - Solved a problem: "People were tired of paying high shipping rates from online fabric shops in the US and wanted to shop Canadian."

Find a problem. Build a solution. Market it. Listen to your customers. It is fairly standard advice, but it works well.

</comment><comment><USER8> Hi! It's Alanna Banks, found of Fridays Off. Thank you for reading my story and all the comments below. I haven't had a chance to read them yet, but I'm going to run through them now. Please feel free to reach out to me with questions. :)

<comment><USER9> Hey Alanna! LOVING your story. its so genuine and raw. it shows that it isn't easy and persistence + constantly learning are key.

I'd love to host you on a podcast series I've started specifically focused on bootstrapped founders, starting side-hustles, and their stories of the early days.

Even though your post answers most of them, hearing them from you would be fantastic.

let me know if that'd be of interest.

Sending lots of good vibes, and telling my north-of-the-border -mom-friends about FridaysOff!

<comment><USER8> Hi! Sure I would be happy to do an interview. :) And thanks for spreading the word :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I've always hated the concept of "revenues" in commerce. Honestly, who cares what your revenues are? Profits are all that matters.

<comment><USER2> Depends on scale and runway. If you have 200k/month in revenue you can easily make (or lose) a boat load of money with a few small adjustments to your margins.

<comment><USER11> Every month I buy a Ferrari for 250,000 en sell it for 200,000. I can now make a blogpost and say I have a revenue of 200,000/month.

Revenue alone is not a valid metric.

<comment><USER12> Genius, time to profit. /s

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> My wife runs a small little shop in the creative space too: the margins can be quite high for nice, high quality stuff and customers are easy to draw in for multiple purchases.

(also it helps I do the tech side of things and there is so much open source, free or cheap stuff available tech-wise)

<comment><USER14> A friend of mine's wife started a very high margin business selling scrapbook grabbags on eBay. She'd buy up clearance items and local craft/hobby stores, and bundle them up to sell on eBay. She made enough money that after two months, PayPal came along and froze her accounts, cutting her cashflow off, effectively killing the business.

<comment><USER15> > She made enough money that after two months, PayPal came along and froze her > accounts

What does that mean?

<comment><USER16> It means that PayPal (incorrectly) suspected her of fraud and took her money (froze her accounts). If this all sounds weird to you then you should search for more info because PayPal loves screwing over sellers on their platform.

Alternatively, she could have had a wrong account type (personal instead of business), but my charitable assumption is that GP took care of that.

<comment><USER15> > PayPal loves screwing over sellers on their platform

That makes no sense.

I think a more sensible take is that PayPal's AML/KYC process is a little too coarse-grained and poorly implemented.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> I am glad that the advice is not unusual and refers to the usual suspects: judicious A/B testing of SEO keywords, personalized correspondence with early customers, and leveraging media and coaches. It gives confidence that anyone can do this.

<comment><USER8> Thanks! I'm just a regular person trying to make a go at my own thing because the corporate world just wasn't for me. My goal is to help people realize that if they have a dream they should go for it, but also to realize that it doesn't come easy. It's A LOT of work!!

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> >After returning from a year long maternity leave I found it difficult to juggle my new life as a mom working in the confines of a 9-5, I also came to the realization that the corporate life just wasn't for me and became very unhappy. I was tired of faking it and really just wanted to follow my forever dream of doing my own thing and being my own boss. So, I did what anyone would do in that situation and got pregnant again ;) ... Knowing I had another year- long maternity leave on the horizon, I started brainstorming e-comm business ideas.

This doesn't sound good, basically kickstarting a company on another company's money.

<comment><USER19> Maternity leave benefits in Canada are paid by the federal government through Employment Insurance (EI) program. New parents get 12-18 months of EI payments. Your employer is only required to hold a position for you, they are not obligated to pay your wage.

<comment><USER18> Ah, that's good to know because in Finland, your employer does pay it.

<comment><USER20> Hey, serious question from an American. How does this policy not cause massive hiring discrimination against young women, especially recently married women? I asked my Canadian relatives this question, and their answers basically boiled down to 'well that would be illegal'. But from what I can tell enforcing anti discrimination in hiring is next to impossible, especially if you interview and hire even a slightly more qualified candidate.

<comment><USER21> A few things seems to help, although there certainly still is some discrimination (in certain jobs especially).

1) All your competitors have to follow the law too, so it's just another cost of doing business.

2) Women are having children later, generally, so employers will see a 25-year-old and think "eh, I probably have 5 years at least".

3) Men are starting to take more parental leave, and the law is mostly gender- neutral (there is some amount of leave specifically for mothers who have given birth, but most can be taken by either parent). In fact, both parents can take the leave and have their jobs protected, although you can't double-dip on the paid benefits. I took three weeks off at my daughter's birth and 3 months when she was ~9 months old.

4) Maternity leave coverage is a great way to try out an employee for a year - hire Jim to cover for Jane, if you like him keep him on after the year, if not he disappears. (Part of this is Canada is more resistant to the contractor/employee trend than the US).

5) The people doing the hiring are likely to either have children or will in the future, so they feel like it's a reasonable/good policy.

Nothing blows my mind as much as hearing Americans talking about maternity benefit. I was listening to a podcast and one person said "we were lucky to have such good maternity benefits, I didn't have to go back to work for 6 weeks" and I was _floored_.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> Very cool story. One of my favorite stores is Britax in San Francisco, where you can see fabrics going north of $1,000/yard. She doesn't seem to use Pinterest, which seems like a natural fit.

<comment><USER8> I know. I need to get moving on Pinterest. It's a total fit.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> "Knowing I had another year-long maternity leave on the horizon..." said no American, ever.

<comment><USER15> Is using a year long maternity leave to start a business an argument for extended maternity leaves?

<comment><USER24> Not really, it's an argument against. A government funded maternity leave is for the benefit of the child. At the point you have enough time to start a business you can support your own kid.

<comment><USER25> Not necessarily. Time with a kid is not sliced in a way that supports a nine to five, but could support an enterprising, driven person in the margins. You can fully support the child and have some time to support your own interests.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> Pat, you should be marking your topics as Show HN:

Promotion of your blog should be clear to readers.

<comment><USER27> So nobody can submit their own content unless it has a Show HN on it? Come on that's ridiculous.

Also, "Show HN" is specifically for products we can play with after clicking the link. Please do not pollute Show HN with blogposts; I will flag them and I'm sure others will too.

<comment><USER26> Maybe this is just spam then

<comment><AUTHOR> Why are you so adamant that my website is spam? You've made multiple comments about it.

I spend a lot of time on it and it provides a lot of value to a lot of people. Maybe the content is not super relevant to you and that's fine. You don't have to read it.

Why are you leaving so many comments about this?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> Nice interview! FYI the learn more links at the bottom are broken.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks! Fixed.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> Revenues are irrelevant. Profits aren't.

<comment><USER29> This is a really ignorant thing to say. If you have a hearty revenue stream but no profit, you can tweak the model to make it profitable. Some profits aren't possible at small scales, so having revenue proves you have demand and can lead to safely risking big bucks to get to a profitable scale.

<comment><USER30> Especially in the eCommerce business where you might have a deal with a supplier. It's not unusual to be able to negotiate a higher margin the more you sell. Any single financial metric alone cannot tell the whole story of a business. Revenues are equally as important as profits.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> This to me is almost not a hacker news.

</comment><comment><USER32>
      What seems to work for me is getting the write keywords in my meta description

lel

<comment><USER33> big funny, much laugh!

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> Beware. There's a whole lot of "start an e shop and get rich quick" bullshit out there.

[https://www.gimletmedia.com/reply-all/117-the-worlds-most- ex...](https://www.gimletmedia.com/reply-all/117-the-worlds-most-expensive- free-watch#episode-player)

<comment><USER35> I got down to where he said he paid $10 for shipping and instantly clicked that it was a watch from Aliexpress and it was a classic dropshipping gig.

There were some people a few years ago that managed to sell off a few hundred Hawaiian shirts that were most likely drop shipped from China by using some well targeted FB (and probably Instagram) advertising, and giving the shirts funny names (named after local alcoholic drinks). They were probably making $20 or $30 per shirt.

An interesting take on the Aliexpress game is theive.co [1]. It's basically a curated list of stuff on Aliexpress with referral links. Since I last looked at the website they've apparently launched a product aimed at drop shippers, where you can get market insights. Morally it's murky, but it's clever.

[1] [https://thieve.co/](https://thieve.co/)

<comment><USER27> > Morally it's murky, but it's clever.

No offense, but this is the kind of thinking that holds back people from succeeding in business. I see it a lot from non-biz engineering types.

There is nothing, _nothing_ "morally wrong" with dropshipping. The main value you provide is discoverability; if the customer finds a product through you that they would not have found otherwise, then you added value. Also, you provide customer service and return policies that the supplier may not. Finally, you also provide value to the supplier by selling their merchandise in channels they are unable or unwilling to reach.

In fact, all that really matters is that the customer made a voluntary decision to purchase a product from you, and was not misinformed about the terms of purchase or shipping.

You are under no obligation to inform the customer of your suppliers. If you disagree morally with that, then feel free to link them to a site where they can buy your product from someone else.

The idea that there is something "wrong" with selling a product for more than you pay for it is ridiculous, at best. That is literally what business has meant since the dawn of civilization.

<comment><USER36> Having been in the (software side of the) digital marketing business for a few years, I generally agree with you.

On the other hand, there are some complaints you can level at the industry. One is that they're exploiting an information asymmetry between the buyer and the seller; buyers as of yet haven't realized just how cheap and available things are on Aliexpress, and the sellers do their best to hide the source of goods. I think this will resolve itself over time as buyers get more savvy.

There are also some questionable practices. "Free, you just pay [$10+] shipping" seems aimed at some sort of psychological defect in the part of the human brain that calculates value. And digital marketers often are often rather indifferent to IP rights.

I guess my biggest complaint is that there are an awful lot of online marketers that really just don't seem to care all that much about the customer. They're often selling one-time impulse buys which are priced too low to be worth the trouble to return and they don't expect a repeat customer, ever. They've never even _seen_ the products they're selling. I guess I want a little more value-add from my vendors - I've gone back to buying things offline where I can.

(I'm sure the article author is in a very different category of seller, which is heartwarming!)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> This is so awesome!</comment>