Can Mushrooms Treat Depression? - <AUTHOR> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/30/opinion/sunday/can-mushrooms-treat-depression.html

<comment><USER3> As someone with depression, personally I wouldn't recommend mushrooms to others in a similar situation. I've tried them once and it was a rather uncomfortable experience. In fact, a quote from the acticle describes my experience fairly well - "When suffering depression, people get stuck in a spiral of negative thoughts and cannot get out of it". This does tend to describe my thought process in general, but this was exacerbated on mushrooms. I had little control over my thought process, which made me anxious, which made the experience harder to deal with. Although, when considering certain personal issues at the time which would normally cause me anxiety, they did feel much less significant.

That said, I've heard many stories of people experiencing life changing epiphanies from mushroom trips as described in the article, and I am intrigued by articles like this and the science behind it. Perhaps my environment, or the specific mushrooms I tried made it worse. Also, having tried them once and come out the other end fine may make future experiences less uncomfortable - <USER2> large part of what made it difficult was a concern that my mental state would be permanently affected by the experience, and this was not the case. Still, it makes me less inclined to try them again until I'm in a better mental state.

For what it's worth, these were the variety of "magic truffles" which are legal and readily obtainable from high street stores in Amsterdam, but as far as I'm aware the active ingredient is the same psilocybin as other forms of magic mushrooms. I wasn't on any medication at the time, though I have heard of certain anti-depressants and other medication either having a negative effect, or negating the effects of mushrooms entirely.

<comment><USER4> For serious treatment, the drug should be taken as part of a psychological therapy - in the right setting, with the right preparation and assistance. As a matter of fact, the author is advocating to make medical research easier, not that people take it at random and hope for a miracle ;)

<comment><USER5> Yep. The problem right now is that everything is locked down because someone somewhere may get some escapism out of it.

At the same time developing brains are fed all kinds of uppers and downers because they react badly to an outdated educational system.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Seems like interest in potential beneficial effects of hallucinogens has been rising. It's certainly true for ketamine, as it's being studied as a therapy for treatment resistant depression. The results look promising but the jury is still out re: satisfying FDA approval requirements.

As the article says, psilocybin could have favorable effects in depression, possibly resembling results with ketamine. Other hallucingenics are often mentioned in this regard, like LSD or mescaline. There have been reports of utility of low dose THC for depression.

In discussions of potential value of any drug the pivotal issue is the risk/benefit ratio. Hallucinogens have unmistakably caused adverse reactions. Panic, psychosis, dissociative states have been observed often enough to warrant a high level of caution in using such drugs.

Part of the problem is the randomness of bad reactions. It's usually difficult to predict which users (or subsets of users) will endure adverse effects at a particular drug dose. Drug interactions is another concern. A great deal of study is necessary to sort out the parameters of (relatively) safe use.

<comment><USER7> There are a few non-hallucinogenic and non-sedative derivatives of ketamine being studied at the moment as antidepressants. Anecdotes of their use seem to be positive, but of course those should be taken with a grain of salt. See LongeCity's Brain Health forum for some crazy threads relating to this.[0]

On another note, this summer I experimented with NSI-189[1] for depression to great effect. It's a hippocampal neurogenic agent currently prepping for phase 2 trials. I found that its antidepressant effects over a one-month cycle were remarkably similar to my single psilocybin experience a few years back. Specifically, they both (or rather, I) exhibited two characteristics:

(a) "Illuminating" rather than the "dulling" of traditional antidepressants. A feeling of irrational filters being lifted from all my senses and the cognitive functions directly adjacent to them. It doesn't feel like a band-aid like tricyclics and SSRIs do. It feels like a realization that the depression is a lie, that it doesn't reflect the actual state of the world.

(b) Persistence of the effect long after the chemical was no longer in my system. Where "long" was approximately two years for the psilocybin, and I'm coming up on four months after cessation of the NSI-189 with not just steady benefits but continuous improvement. This matches the results found in the Phase 1b trial.[2]

Now I haven't gotten an MRI to see if my hippocampus has grown to an abnormal size, like was found in an early mouse study, but my experience has made me extremely optimistic for the next ten years of antidepressant research. I'm fairly certain we'll be able to narrow down the exact mechanisms by which psychedelics alleviate depression and isolate them from the permanent destructive potential of most psychedelics.[3]

[0] [http://www.longecity.org/forum/forum/169-brain- health/](http://www.longecity.org/forum/forum/169-brain-health/)

[1] It is currently not being sold, and its patent-holder Neuralstem is being quite threatening toward would-be vendors. There is nothing illegal about purchasing it, but it would be difficult for anyone in the US without indirect access to a quality Asian synth lab and a domestic third party testing facility.

[2] [http://smithonstocks.com/neuralstem-phase-1b-results-for- nsi...](http://smithonstocks.com/neuralstem-phase-1b-results-for-nsi-189-are- very-encouraging-but-it-is-early-days-cur-buy-4-38-for-paid-subscribers/)

[3] I should mention that though I'm comparing NSI-189 to traditional psychedelics in this comment, it doesn't actually have any major immediate effects. Common anecdotal effects include heightened taste and smell, back-of- skull pressure/ache and mild parasthesia. A couple instances of major, painful parasthesia in individuals with previous nerve damage. But no headspace, no high, no rush, no immediate feeling that you're taking a drug at all, and the antidepressant effects do not reveal themselves for at least a week.

<comment><USER8> I'm curious where your supply comes from. Are you a chemist?

<comment><USER7> No, there are various online communities for experimental, legal drug use, each with their own themes and safety guidelines that depend on the users' goals. Overseas labs are not too hard to come by, but language barriers and repeated shoddy synthesis (see also: Alibaba) can raise the effective cost by orders of magnitude. Then it's worth your while to get the sample independently tested after importation. This, combined with significant economies of scale, leads to group buys being a common method of acquiring substances. One trusted person who has contacts and a history with known quality labs (who often ask not to be revealed to the whole group, especially if they're in Europe) is chosen to organize the money, make the purchase, having preliminary testing done, repackage into each person's order, and ship them the rest of the way.

I neglected to mention precisely how I acquired it because, as mentioned, Neuralstem is not joking around. (It wasn't as a group buy.) They do not have any existing treatments on the market and currently have just two in human trials: NSI-189, an antidepressant and ostensibly nootropic, and NSI-566, a stem cell treatment for ALS. It's not surprising that they're freaked out by use of one of these treatments years before it could ever be approved as a pharmaceutical.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I tried Psilocybin recently, with intent to see what changes the experience might make to my mood and mental outlook. My trip was quite uncomfortable, as others have related. I'm glad I tried mushrooms, however. Upon return to this astral plan I was immensely grateful for sanity and the little pocket of warmth in time and space that is our existence. In the days since I have found my mood to be better.

My Psilocybin trip was an almost terrifying experience that served as a good reset. I will definitely consider repeating this on a periodic basis if needed, being most respectful of the dark power these little fungi possess.

</comment><comment><USER10> They say two great products came out of Berkeley BSD and LSD

</comment><comment><USER11> It is sad that most of such research (on psychoactives, etc.) is happening in the UK, and not the US (which has a lot more resources). Our Drug War(TM) at work.

Aside: "... Paul Expert at King's College London ..." : this guy was born to be a researcher. :-D

<comment><USER12> Actually, quite a bit of research is happening in the US, with Johns Hopkins and NYU being at the lead.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> Mushrooms are not for the faint of heart. Generally, they will cause extreme anxiety in those who are naturally prone to it, possibly to the breaking point -- especially if in a public or unfamiliar setting. However, the drug itself is highly psychoactive and can truly lead to some amazing revelations about life in general, that break through the shroud of depression.

<comment><USER14> > _Generally, they will cause extreme anxiety in those who are naturally prone > to it, possibly to the breaking point_

Generally? No.

I've taken and been around people who have taken mushrooms for over 15 years. I still dabble on occasion. I've never seen or even heard of someone reaching a "breaking point". This is not to say that it can't happen, but saying that mushrooms will do it, generally, must be supported.

That said, mushrooms are no fooling around. If you have no experience with "being high", and the altered mental state that that entails, I would never recommend diving into multi-gram does of 'shrooms. Once you've had some experience, it's much easier to tell yourself, "I'm high, this will pass. Enjoy it."

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> I tired them in Bali last year (they have been made illegal since then) and I thought my mood was slightly changed for a few days. I did not get some large effect, but there was some minor effect. Mostly I felt happily drunk.

I have battled depression for years, and while I would agree that there was some minor uplift, it was not a major change in my case.

</comment><comment><USER16> The most interesting thing to me was the importance of ritual in the trials. Bad experiences might be linked to a defficient or lacking framework-- the power of expectation and psycho social cues perhaps being undervalued in all sorts of treatments.</comment>


Nuclear Fusion Reactor in France 55 Percent Complete - <AUTHOR> http://ens-newswire.com/2018/07/03/nuclear-fusion-reactor-in-france-55-percent-complete/ <comment><USER2> For a glimpse into the ITER project, here are two omega tau podcast episodes I can highly recommend:

[http://omegataupodcast.net/157-fusion-at- iter/](http://omegataupodcast.net/157-fusion-at-iter/)

[http://omegataupodcast.net/285-superconductivity/](http://omegataupodcast.net/285-superconductivity/)

</comment><comment><USER3> So it's 13.5 years away?

</comment><comment><USER4> Let's hope Trump doesn't find out fusion might replace coal. They need our investment.</comment>


1and1's Ruby FAQ - <AUTHOR> http://faq.1and1.com/scripting_languages_supported/ruby/1.html

<comment><USER2> * You should call Ruby files with the extension of .pl*

I suppose you could name the anything, but .pl says Perl to me. I would think .rb would be more intuitive.

<comment><USER3> Intuitive (or quality for that matter) and 1and1 don't go well together. Telling people to use the extension .pl for Ruby files is exactly what I expect from them.</comment></comment>


Porting Electron 6 to Windows on Arm - <AUTHOR> https://community.arm.com/developer/tools-software/tools/b/tools-software-ides-blog/posts/electron-6-for-windows-on-arm <comment><USER2> > This release means that Electron developers and ISVs can now easily bring > their existing apps to Windows on Arm (WoA) and deliver the best possible > performance and battery life.

I'm not convinced if it is even possible to get a comparable performance and battery life if I was run VS Code on an ARM PC even if it purchased the cheapest Surface X. Perhaps VS Code may run just as fine, but open up Slack, Discord, Bitwarden and GitHub Desktop? Just watch it crawl slowly for its life.

I don't see how Electron on ARM can scale against its already beaten up Intel rival if you use these apps simultaneously and then expect to "deliver the best possible performance and battery life" at the same time. It really doesn't make any sense here. Perhaps the problem is not ARM or Intel, but problem is the strangely oversized-Electron in the room.

<comment><AUTHOR> I guess the worst-case reference is probably running those apps under x86 emulation? I tried out Teams on a Surface Pro X and it was pretty dreadful</comment></comment>


Show HN: Which religion produces the most atheists? - <AUTHOR> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vR3Ret84SNwOO1iKnZFJmm6ubTCRY3ATGuRWxk9OqiiR0IP7aurmyWFxMh2oGwjmvHKx1tnsKtzyZWf/pubchart?oid=96747418&format=interactive <comment><AUTHOR> The data was collected using [https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/8e8j3w/survey_whic...](https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/8e8j3w/survey_which_religion_did_you_leave_behind/)

</comment><comment><USER2> this should be interpreted as one thing, christian societies which are concentrated in Europe and the Americas are way more free than other societies, so more people can become anything else because it's basically cost-less, compare that to islamic societies when a single gesture that you're not a total conformist with the teachings of your sect can easily cost you your life or having to spend years behind bars

<comment><USER3> Or that /r/atheism is more popular in christian locations

<comment><USER4> Or that english speaking countries are/were mostly built on christian values.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Title should be "demographics of the an the English-language subreddit /r/atheists".

</comment><comment><USER6> There is two Jeovah's witness section. Shouldn't they be merged?

<comment><AUTHOR> I can do it in the excel file but that violates the "live" nature of this graph.</comment></comment>


Isambard Kingdom Brunel - <AUTHOR> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isambard_Kingdom_Brunel <comment><USER2> Brunel is one of my heroes.

I was born in Bristol and he was a large part of the city's heritage and featured in the school curriculum. I have an early memory of standing on the edge of the Avon watching the SS Great Britain come under the suspension bridge into the Cumberland Basin in around 1970.

Funnily enough, I visited the ship again just the other weekend for the first time in about 30 years. It is only apparent to me now just how advanced the ship was at the time. This was the very first iron-only ocean-going liner and even the use of a propeller was bleeding-edge when it was built, and yet some the techniques used were similar to what you might see now. If you're ever in the area, I really recommend a visit.

Also worth mentioning is Maidenhead Railway Bridge [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maidenhead_Railway_Bridge](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maidenhead_Railway_Bridge)

built in 1838, which held the record for the longest flattest brick arches in the world up until only quite recently I believe. It appears in Turner's famous painting "Rain, Steam, Speed" [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rain_Steam_and_Speed_the_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rain_Steam_and_Speed_the_Great_Western_Railway.jpg)

and also has a fantastic sounding echo underneath.

<comment><USER3> I love the Clifton Suspension bridge - its a thing of beauty. I like this combo of engineering feats - Concorde's last flight included a flyby over the bridge:

[http://www.justmomentsintime.com.au/BaileySite/Terrys%20Page...](http://www.justmomentsintime.com.au/BaileySite/Terrys%20Page/ConcordeOverBridge.jpg)

For added interest - the white building is one of only two working camera obscuras in the country and the bridge is over Avon Gorge. If you hear of "Silicon Gorge", now you know what it looks like!

<comment><USER2> Lovely shot. Concorde is a thing of beauty too, all done with pen/paper/slide- rules of course.

At about the time the SS Great Britain was being repatriated, Concorde was undergoing its initial test flights. We saw an early one take off from Filton from across the Bristol Channel in Wales. In those days, it was allowed to do sonic booms as it flew along the Welsh coast. Bloody hell it was loud!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Babbage had an argument with Brunel about the who had the right of way when driving their own railway engines:

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKqdlpuLDPE](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKqdlpuLDPE)

Brunel is also a character in the brilliant "The Thrilling Adventures of Lovelace and Babbage":

[http://sydneypadua.com/2dgoggles/cast/](http://sydneypadua.com/2dgoggles/cast/)

Where his described as:

"The Wolverine of the mid-Victorians, he was short, ripped, had big sideburns, smoked forty cigars a day and generally kicked everyone's ass."

</comment><comment><USER5> The reading of Brunel's "atmospheric caper" sounds somewhat a forerunner to one of Elon Musk's transport ideas.

<comment><AUTHOR> That was my first thought too - and if you dig deeper you'll see there were quite a few folks working on this concept in the mid-1800s. Suprising! Steampunk indeed.

<comment><USER6> FYI

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_railway](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_railway)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> There is a bizarre animated biography on IKB made by the BBC in 1975:

[http://transportationist.org/2012/09/17/great_isambard_kingd...](http://transportationist.org/2012/09/17/great_isambard_kingdom_brunel/)

"It is mostly about Brunel, but it is also telling of the state of the UK in the early 1970s. Something was clearly wrong that this was green-lighted."

What is even stranger is that it won an oscar in 1976.

Its definitely worth watching if you can find it.

<comment><USER8> I just tried finding that on YouTube as the IMDB comments suggested it might be there.

I didn't find that film, but I found this film: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXgGsEO1b04](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXgGsEO1b04)

Which, for a condensed, half-witty animation, does a fair job of putting such a life into 3 minutes.

The best I found on the Oscar winning film are some clips: [http://0xdb.org/0073068/clips/position](http://0xdb.org/0073068/clips/position) . From the clips, I would describe it as a cross between the animations of Monty Python's Flying Circus and Yellow Submarine.

And those clips worked best in Firefox, click a frame and wait for no feedback, and then 5 seconds will play (with audio) when you least expect it.

<comment><USER9> [http://video.yandex.ru/users/urikis/view/644](http://video.yandex.ru/users/urikis/view/644) seems to be it, complete with Russian subtitles.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I was familiar with his story from playing the "railroad tycoon" series of games as a kid. I suspect many startup / HN / MBA types were inspired by playing those games and therefore had some exposure to Brunel's story.

</comment><comment><USER11> Sting wrote a song related to him (actually one of the ships he'd built): [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dH44goCQqCU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dH44goCQqCU)

<comment><USER12> Totally reddit style comment, destined for downvote oblivion, but I like this Brunel related Steampunk song so much I can't resist linking to it just this once: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21QqXumEWFU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21QqXumEWFU)

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZn8EQaoD9w](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZn8EQaoD9w)

</comment><comment><USER14> A remarkable engineer. My father nearly named me Isambard, but my mother got in first with "Jacques".

<comment><USER15> Hadn't heard the name ever. I guess it's not very common, is it? Also "Kingdom".

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> Speaking of this guy, my nephew is named after him :).</comment>


No Arrests If Calling 911 During Drug Overdose: NYPD - <AUTHOR> http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/drug-overdose-911-good-samaritan-law-arrest-nypd-429945863.html <comment><USER2> A terrible epidemic right now, and this is a good way to help those that are in immediate danger. That being said, I hope this policy is actually enforced in an effective manner.

Where I lived and went to school, there was a similar policy enforced by the police. If you take the action to help someone in danger from overdosing, whether it's an opioid or alcohol, the police will not charge you even if you too are in violation of the law. Now it only applies to being under the influence, any other crimes they discover are still going to be pursued. And for this reason, those who I have spoke to are hesitant to help even when it means someone's life is on the line.

This is completely anecdotal, but every instance of being a good samaritan that I've heard of, the caller has been charged or gotten into trouble by some other means (whether by their school or employer). For an alcohol poisoning case the person ended up having to take mandatory classes that interfered with their school work.

I'm not saying this is a bad policy by any means, it's certainly a step in the right direction. But it also takes an open an honest discussion that the samaritan should be aware of. If they know they'll be in jail for possession, or having paraphernalia on the premises, it lowers the chance of the call taking place, and the life being saved.

I truly hope this policy is executed with the sole intent to save lives.</comment>


Ask HN: What are your best sources of passive income? - <AUTHOR> <comment><USER2> [https://hn.algolia.com/?query=Ask%20HN%20passive%20income%20...](https://hn.algolia.com/?query=Ask%20HN%20passive%20income%20points%3E30&sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=story&storyText=false&prefix&page=0)

</comment><comment><USER3> Affiliate marketing if you do you keyword research correctly.

I think it's important that most people realize that with passive income, there is no such thing as 100% passive. There's always initial work or maintenance involved.

Passive income is more so creating something of value that requires minimal to no effort by the recipient to maintain.

Aside from some aspects of real estate, I'd have to say affiliate marketing can be the easiest and best passive income sources around if you're willing to put in the initial work. It's also a very low barrier to entry on it, so anyone can do it without a lot of costs.

If any of you guys are interested, there is a really good passive income IRC chat community to hangout and discuss/collaborate about it.

[http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=%23%23passiveincome&ui...](http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=%23%23passiveincome&uio=MTY9dHJ1ZSYyPXRydWUac)

</comment><comment><USER4> My retirement stock account invested in large index funds. I guess my savings account earns 1% interest also.

Any other source of income I have is not passive. Question people when they talk about passive income renting out an apartment building. Find out who is calling the plumber at 3am when a pipe bursts, and ask how passive that is?

<comment><USER5> Most of the people who do that seriously use a property management company that deals with all of that and finding new tenants when needed. Less profit, but makes it pretty passive if you want it to be.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Website hosting and freelancing web design/dev, at first its not passive, but over time it becomes passive as clients are able to manage their sites themselves after launch.

<comment><USER4> What happens when a site you host breaks when you are out of town or sleeping? How is that passive?

<comment><USER6> Well, good luck finding a 100% passive income, this is close enough for me, I might spend a couple hours a month with clients. Pretty dang close.

<comment><USER4> 100% passive income is index funds in the stock market.

A few hours a month may be low work residual income.. but not passive.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> My house. Can't beat real estate when you're strategically located.

<comment><USER8> Asset Valuation is not income generated unless you liquidate or rent it out.

<comment><USER7> True. It's actually my saving account.

<comment><USER9> what kind of savings account requires maintenance and paying always rising local taxes? what percentage of your net worth is tied up in your real estate? what happens when real estate tanks? are you planning to time it and sell at "the top"?</comment></comment></comment></comment>


How to Use the Python Map Function - <AUTHOR> https://www.digitalocean.com/community/tutorials/how-to-use-the-python-map-function <comment><USER2> Nice tutorial. I didn't know about map with more than 1 iterable. Although I haven't really used map much since list comprehension always does the job for me.</comment>


Ask HN: Why doesn't Apple support Nvidia GPUs? - <AUTHOR> <comment><USER2> Steve.

<comment><USER3> The roots of this were in Nvidia providing parts - lots of them - that failed and refusing to take responsibility for it. The current Nvidia ban is a direct result of this.

Probably unnecessary personal note: I've had a few contacts with Nvidia upper management and they're pretty awful to deal with on a personal level. I can't imagine that the dueling sociopaths vibe of them vs Steve would've been very productive.</comment></comment>


My Notes on How to Start a Startup by YC - <AUTHOR> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wkJ6Ruh2IiR-caT-PS3n5Yt5VKcmIsVhuQwjgqK7030/edit <comment><USER2> I haven't finished reading this, but what strikes me about the advice in the notes is that much of it is either contradictory or there exist counterexamples to the claims. For example, the reader is encouraged to start building, but is told you also need a good idea and that you can pivot but most good companies don't start with a pivot. Counterexample: Slack was a pivot. We're also instructed that you should build something that's hard to replicate, but also that the thing you build first should be simple. What am I supposed to take away from this? If it's simple, isn't it almost surely replicable? Also, Netflix is a good counterexample: they just started with a DVD mail service, and were easily replicable by an incumbent, like Blockbuster. And the advice about not creating a market goes against what sometimes occurs through branding. The original Banana Republic sold "safari clothing". There was no market for this before Banana Republic. Nor was there a market for energy drinks before Red Bull. I'm told that you should have a cofounder, yet is appears that there's many examples of successful companies without one (eg Amazon, IKEA). I'm not sure if this appears in the document yet, but another piece of conventional wisedom I've heard is that you need to work on your startup full time or else (insert bad thing about you not being committed). But what about Nike, whose founder worked for 5 years as an accountant while he developed the business?

My point is that a lot of the advice I've heard about startups in general is framed (intentionally or unintentionally) as a series of directives that will optimize your chances of success. Moreover, no other additional context is provided to help you frame the advice, such that you can tell whether or not it's applicable or appropriate advice to follow. The lack of context coupled with the existence of so many blatant counterexamples and contradictions prevents the advice from being useful.

(Note: I edited the last paragraph for clarity)

<comment><USER3> Monopoly is good - except Google.

\- Peter Thiel

<comment><USER4> There is some kind of kind of logic in this, Google, is more than a Search monopoly, or Maps, or Gmail, or Google Play, or Google Ads, or presence on very large number of website through Ads, Analytics, ReCaptcha, and lord knows what. Google is not a monopoly, it is more than that.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Just sharing the notes I compiled while watching the online sessions @ [https://startupclass.samaltman.com/](https://startupclass.samaltman.com/). I've been sitting on this for about half a year, and almost forgot I'd compiled it.

I hope some of you find this useful (:

<comment><USER5> Probably you should also look at "Disciplined Entrepreneurship" [https://medium.com/west-stringfellow/disciplined- entrepreneu...](https://medium.com/west-stringfellow/disciplined- entrepreneurship-summary-and-review-1d0a7c310644)

Many suggestions are practical with case studies.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you! This looks like a great resource :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I am not in the startup scene but why cant one of the best reason to start a company be to make more MONEY. Why is it always about changing the world and the universe needs me type of stuff. This is too SV cartoonish for me.

<comment><USER7> Because most employees assume money is a given, and they align with a mission instead. It is also not socially acceptable to be in something just for the money unless it is wall street.

<comment><USER6> What type of mission would that be? Selling ads, gathering your private data? Can we get real please? Time to stop villianizing WS, SV is just modern day WS with more greed. ( Sometimes more useful though. )

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I recently started out on this road as a solo founder [0], and out of all the given pieces of advice that YC gives, two things are the most conflicting for me:

\- This pressure to have a co-founder. I see that quoted as a major reasons for why startups go bust but also necessary for doing anything meaningful. I can imagine there being truth to both statements. I've seen startups go bust in my own network on both sides of the divide. But I feel there isn't enough advice out there for folks who are doing it Solo - that's still a valid design pattern for many startups in the past or present.

\- The whole idea of go big or go home - lot of the advice seems to assume you want to be really big one day. There doesn't seem to be enough advice for someone wanting to be a 10M-100M dollar business as their main milestone, not as a path to hit a billion dollar valuation. That kind of assumption results in very different kinds of design patterns, often borrowed from other billion dollar startups that may not make sense to your own little venture in the beginning.

I wish startup advice wasn't universal as every author or speaker would like you to believe - there could be a system where it was doled out based on the current phase and situation, or at least recognizing the fact that there isn't one size fits all for something as varied as starting your own venture.

[0] [https://stockquanta.com](https://stockquanta.com)

<comment><USER9> YC advice isn't optimizing to help founders at all. It's optimizing for their business model.

I don't know why people think otherwise. Do you think venture capitalists are your friends? Pretty sure they're not!

<comment><USER10> Yeah, but without entrepreneurs, VC's have no opportunity to invest in the next Uber, etc.

It's in their interest to be both nice to you, and strike a good deal with you, if they want to do business with you at all.

I wouldn't want to work with a VC who couldn't be nice to me. To be firm or offer pointed criticism is fine.

<comment><USER9> I dunno bro, did you read anything I said?

In business people can be perfectly nice and at the same time completely ruin your life. In fact, that's standard practice.

I'm telling you to be wary of VC advice on how to start a startup, basically because VC advice is entirely self serving; it's not designed to help you. It's designed to help them.

<comment><USER10> > I dunno bro, did you read anything I said?

This type of comment isn't really productive to make. Yes, I read what you said. Because I replied to it.

My point is that I wouldn't work with somebody who wouldn't treat me reasonably-- I wouldn't accept their VC money.

I don't understand how VC advice can be self-serving, though, since in order for them to get a return on their money, your business has to take off. And you don't give up 100% of the company. So you win too. I view it as mutual, in that regard.

If you lose, they lose money. If they invest in you, they don't want to lose.

<comment><USER9> You tell me

> I don't understand how VC ...

And you also tell me you don't like being told that you don't understand. Which one is it? Go read what I said again. Now read the following.

You are one of N (N being large) investments by VC. Your utility function is to increase your probability of getting rich. Their utility function is to increase their probability of making bonus. How on earth can you assume you are optimizing the same thing? You are not. You're just one of 100 or 200 dice they're rolling. Your success is completely meaningless to them; they want the loaded die, and they want to be able to identify it and bet the house on it. You might have a great idea for a business which makes _YOU_ rich, but if it doesn't fit their model, you're SOL with VC. You may even have a great idea which makes the VC rich. They're not optimizing for your wealth here either: they are optimizing for THEIR wealth, and they will happily take your company, your idea, and all your profit and leave you with jack shit. As such, taking advice from a venture capitalist is like taking advice from a financial advisor that works in a boiler room. Guess what? They don't have your best interests in mind either! They just want to make bonus. Just like the VC. You are product to them.

If you've been around the block a few times, you'd know this. I'm trying to tell you how it works, but you keep telling me VCs are your friend and everything they tell you is the truth. They're not! They're almost all scumbags! You should use them to achieve your goals, and that's it! And only a fool takes what they have to say about founding a startup as some kind of revealed truth. It's just propaganda to make their job easier.

<comment><USER10> I actually boot-strap my own projects. So in a sense, you're right. I probably never would take VC funding. I don't think terribly highly of them, but I do think it would be naive for them to not want you succeed.

Thank you for finally highlighting something pivotal in our discussion: the shared interest (or lack thereof) in your success. Like I said, it doesn't totally add up to me. If you remain majority shareholder in your business, it seems hard for them to walk off with more than you would at the liquidity event (e.g, your company is acquired, an IPO, etc).

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. They're not 100% against your interests, but not necessarily 100% for them, either.

<comment><USER9> Sure, sometimes VC align with your interests. But I'm just trying to make the point that taking their advice without thinking about it is ... inadvisable.

I've seen super terrible things happen to people. Sometimes you have to jump up and down and make a lot of noise that "notes on how to start a startup by YC" should be taken with much salt.

Anyway :allies:

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> There's a huge amount of survivorship bias in all such lists. Startups that succeed get analyzed a lot, those that did pretty much the same things but failed don't. To be rigorous about it, you'd have to define things like what's a startup, what constitutes success, what constitutes failure, far more carefully.

<comment><USER12> That's the good thing about lists that come from VCs. They analyze both the successes and failures, as well as things like risk level. YC also does a great job of not falling into the trap of copying the last superstar.

<comment><USER13> True but huge caveat: their idea of success and the founder's idea of success may differ wildly. If a modest exit makes the founder a few million and the VC just gets a single digit multiple, that's not the kind of success they're going to gravitate towards in their analysis. They may not label it a failure but they won't be trying to identify how to replicate more of those, even if it will have changed the founder's life and family for generations.

<comment><USER12> Yes, that is true.

But so far this one has done a good job at that. The first thing they do is even try to convince you that entrepreneurship isn't the most profitable path. The statistically best path is to work at an early stage company. But if you have a certain kind of insane resolve, then they'll guide you down it.

I think 'partial' success does get celebrated though, sort of like Reddit. Again, this is something seed investors do far better than Series C investor types.

The patterns are still pretty similar, as a good deal of this covers the path from idea to "ramen profitable".

<comment><USER14> > The first thing they do is even try to convince you that entrepreneurship > isn't the most profitable path. The statistically best path is to work at an > early stage company.

That's just them, being self-interested since they need employees for their founders' startups more than they need new founders.

Realistically, the most profitable path statistically is to work at a FLNG or decacorn.

<comment><USER13> Agreed. I'm completely skeptical that the expected return is higher for "early stage startup" vs large tech co or "decacorn" (love that term, btw) and investing in index funds and maybe some real estate.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Interesting: The title was changed ('57-Page' was removed) while the comment which classified the prior title as close to click-bait was downvoted.

I didn't know that users could change the title of their submission. How is this possible or is this actually a post by YC?

If latter, a hint would be great that this might be YC promoted content and not actual user content.

<comment><USER16> It is possible that an admin changed the title.

Folks probably downvoted you because they deemed your tone unwelcome here.

<comment><USER15> > It is possible that an admin changed the title

Still strange. Why should an admin change the submission of a random user if it doesn't breach any of HN's rules?

Maybe because it's not a random submission by a random user?

Guess I must be wrong but would love to hear what that admin who did the change has to say.

<comment><USER17> > _If the original title begins with a number or number + gratuitous > adjective, we 'd appreciate it if you'd crop it. E.g. translate "10 Ways To > Do X" to "How To Do X," and "14 Amazing Ys" to "Ys." Exception: when the > number is meaningful, e.g. "The 5 Platonic Solids."_

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Catchy title with strong words ('57-page', 'YC'), no real click-bait but close.

I skimmed the first pages and most of the advice is neither wrong or bad. Still, reading a lenghty 57-note in order to learn is wrong.

You learn by doing. If _you_ want to start something stop procrastinating on HN and execute the first step: found the legal entity for your endeavor. This will keep you busy for the next days, and you learn.

Btw, you don't need to have a good or any idea or co-founder now. This will all come. Just start, make mistakes, stop reading random advice.

 _Edit: Don 't downvote if you disagree, downvote if a comment doesn't add anything to the discussion._

<comment><USER18> Don't set up a legal entity.

Find the nugget of your idea. Do something to get market feedback.

Eg your idea is Uber for pet food - go interview people leaving a big pet food store and ask them if they're interested. Old school market research.

Or say your idea is a sports news site for minor teams. Set up an MVP that serves for your local team and promote it, see how many many people go to the site. MVP could be a stream of article links from other sites, or perhaps better a newsletter via email. On site have sign up box for other teams.

Market feedback is key. Once you have a good signal, continue building and gather more feedback.

<comment><USER15> While I agree with most what you wrote, I still think that setting up a legal entity is a good first step. Most wannabes struggle with starting. They wait for the perfect idea, the perfect team and so on. They never start. Even if you start with a crappy idea. Ideas will evolve, get pivoted, whatever. My message is about to start and not wasting your time with inactivity like reading random Google Docs by random dudes.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Google Docs is already showing "Some tools might be unavailable due to heavy traffic in this file."

I predict this posts hits 100 points and then it crashes. (Currently at 31.)

<comment><USER20> At 47 and had issues loading it, so I printed to PDF and hosted a copy on Docdroid -- I hope that's ok. If not, I'll delete it.

[https://docdro.id/tOVflQx](https://docdro.id/tOVflQx)

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> "How do you tell which markets are growing fastest? Use instincts as a young student."

Welp, I'm over 22, guess I'm never starting a company.

</comment><comment><USER22> The Airbnb interview question "if u were diagnosed with 1 year left to live, would you work at airbnb?" sounds to me like "I want to date a stalker." No. No I don't. I don't want an insane employee who may go postal, either.

</comment><comment><USER23> I like to read summaries. This is amazing, thanks for sharing.

</comment><comment><USER24> wow, great stuff. i was starting to do the same after watching dozens of yc videos. you made it better :)

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the kind words! Hope it helps.

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> Nice job on the formatting. Looks great with an auto-outline.

Appreciate the share.

<comment><AUTHOR> Very welcome!

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> This is amazing, thanks for sharing

<comment><AUTHOR> You're very welcome :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> TY!</comment>


BASIC Computer Games Book, published in 1978 - <AUTHOR> http://www.atariarchives.org/basicgames/ <comment><USER2> I had a Commodore PET and when my friends got tired of playing the games that came with it, on tape, I bought this book and the second one.

I heavily modified Super Star Trek and shortly after wrote my first game for sale, Galactic Conquest. Which was a clone of the same game on the Apple II by Broderbund.

Cut to the chase, this coming May I celebrate 30 years of making video games professionally.

Without these books, and nagging friends, I'm not sure what I would have done for a living.

<comment><USER3> Did you work on any titles I might know? On PC, that is, I never played games on anything earlier.

<comment><USER2> I worked on mostly console of the years, but you'll find my name on Spec-Ops and Majesty for the PC. I went from a programmer to producer in 1990ish.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I have this book, somewhere, and I have so many fond memories of it. Of course I didn't actually type in and play many of the games, because TI-99/4A BASIC was not really compatible with Microsoft BASIC. I revisited it some years later on a Tandy, though, and did things like adapt the horseracing game to show an animated on-screen (text) display of the horses running towards the finish line across the screen. That sort of thing.

I also added graphical capability to the Life game. Seeing a Life plot unfold over the entire screen in pixels was breathtaking.

I always liked the dorky guy with his arm around the robot, like he finally has a pal who _understands_ him. "Mom, you said I should make new friends. So that's just what I did! Meet Gregtron. Man, me and Gregtron are gonna do everything together! Go camping and play ball and... Wait, that's not what you meant?"

Even better were the robot comics _inside_ the book. There's something grim and vaguely cyberpunk about them. "Oh yeah? Well, _your_ mother has knobby tires..."

<comment><USER5> I had a copy too. I remember having to tweak the code a bit to get it to work on whatever dialect of BASIC I was using at the time, but it seemed a fairly straightforward conversion. I was most fascinated by the hexapawn program. When I first saw it, I'd never heard of a program that improves itself over time. More recently, I tried generalizing the hexapawn program so it would work on larger board sizes, and the bot could play either side (or both of them). Putting a learning bot as player 2 (on 4x4 and 5x5) against a random bot, it seemed to learn in reasonable time that it could not force a win, but a learning bot as player 1 never seemed to learn to do so. Unfortunately, the learning strategy was essentially a list of bad moves to make, so it doesn't scale well to larger board sizes.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Man, in a similar vein, I remember old ANTIC magazines that my father had, sitting down and typing endless reams of DATA statements printed up in that magazine, and getting glorious PLAYER/MISSILE graphic games out of the deal.

And then losing them entirely when the power went out while I was saving to tape. (booooooooooooooooop.)

<comment><USER7> > _And then losing them entirely_

Oh, yeah. I remember one day my dad typed in a long program from _Color Computer Magazine,_ which did 3D images (very sparse wireframe). I played with it for a while, finished, pressed Reset...then, while I still had the button down, remembered that Dad had said he wasn't interested enough in it to save it to tape, so I should if I wanted to keep it.

I thought furiously for a moment, trying to figure out if there was any way to save it before I released the button; but the reset had already happened.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yeah, my dad would challenge me to modify these or other listings to do different things or sometimes just to come up with something off the wall. After finishing a couple (or dozen) of those he would buy me a game. I remember getting Frogger on tape like that.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Sort of OT, but does anyone remember a magazine called "The Gazette"? (IIRC) When I was 10 my dad would bring this magazine home for me each month with chocolate milk and powdered doughnuts and I would sit on our commodore 64 for the whole weekend working with the sample code them had in it. Good times for a 10 year old.

<comment><USER9> Yes, published by the people that did Compute!

Just some of the greatest magazines ever written.

Even with the web and the wealth of info I miss the excitement of getting an issue of Compute! and reading the programs and the articles by Jim Butterfield.

Chocolate milk, powdered donuts, the Gazette magazine, a C64, a dad, and his 10 year old son... Darn near brought a tear to my eye.

<comment><USER8> at 33 now, this is by far the fondest memory I have of my dad. I looked forward to it every month. I would sit there, fall asleep there, I was brought dinner at the C64. We had a cassette player so I could save my work. I still remember when I started planning out my own programs. My dad bought me a box of dot-matrix printer paper and I went to town planning out my "apps"

Now with my own 12 year old son, He is writing iPhone apps and plotting his timeline to becoming CEO of Apple.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> If anyone's interested, I wrote a Vic20 clone (not an emulator) in javascript <http://quietcode.com/vic> It's not finished (none of my stuff ever is), and to do much with it you need to open up a javascript console and drive it via its js api

Without the console, all you can do is type and move the cursor

I've mapped a number of the more important memory locations, including screen, character mapping, colours etc.

If you're game, give this a shot (in a js console)

      vic20.mem.poke(7680,1)

which will put a capital A in the top left corner of the screen. Colour memory is located starting 38400, so we can change the colour of that A to red by adding

      vic20.mem.poke(38400,2)

I'd like to add a basic interpreter and the rest, but I keep getting distracted by other things. Oh, and the black strip along the bottom of sort of a cpu usage graph.

Works well in Safari, and mostly well in FF. Chrome seems to have a problem with the cursor, and IE, well... it's a no go since it's all canvas based.

[Edit 2: entire thing is written in Coffee Script]

<comment><USER11> sounds interesting, what is the difference between a clone and an emulator? do you mean it looks like a Vic20, but does not actually emulate 6502 (or whatever) machine code?

<comment><USER10> yes. Clone probably isn't the right word either, but I don't know what is.

The idea was to match, as closely as possible, the output and behaviour of a Vic20, but not the internals. I want it to be Basic compatible, and that includes making most of the memory locations behave properly, but not machine code compatible

<comment><USER7> OK, so it's an emulator for VIC-20 BASIC, but not for the VIC-20.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I used to write BASIC programs with my Atari 400 (flat keyboard, flat fingers) when I was a child. I never got further than primitive text adventures...I was into Choose Your Own Adventure books at the time if I remember correctly. Saving and loading programs from cassette was very frustrating. Unfortunately that was the last computer I had until the mid 90s or so.

</comment><comment><USER7> These were great. I remember thinking the ones in the sequel were better, though:

More BASIC Computer Games <http://www.atariarchives.org/morebasicgames/>

Eliza and Wumpus come to mind.

<comment><USER13> Roadrace!!! I have the disk with that on it sitting on my desk next to me :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Cute, but that's the newer version. I grew up outside of Boston, we had access to a PDP-8 in my junior high (early 1970's), and I had a version of this book with a blue-edged cover.

Wish I still had it!

<comment><USER15> I had a copy with a green cover. It's kind of torn up now, but still readable.

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> I remember typing in some of these on my Commodore 64. Those were fun days!

<comment><USER16> Me too! Was a great time, I think I learned a lot, although my next serious stuff was in Turbo Pascal.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> I had the DEC edition (which pre-dated the Microcomputer edition featured here) and have been trying to buy one used, but copies seem to be extremely hard to come by.

I remember learning to program from books like this (and magazines like Creative Computing and Kilobaud that included program listings) by emulating the machine with paper and pencil.

I've often wondered if folks who have grown up with easy access to computing power still read code in the same way; if so, I'd recommend Knuth's literate programs as a great resource.

</comment><comment><USER18> I just want to say, I had this book when I was 9. I loved it. I spent hours and hours typing these programs into basic and then saving them to cassette. I'd change them and modify them and eventually learned to make my own programs. Thanks for posting! I credit this book as one of the catalysts for a life long love of technology.

</comment><comment><USER19> I wish I had this when I was figuring out GW-BASIC as a kid. I had one piece source code to work off of and nothing else. Every time I figured out a new piece of the language I was ecstatic, I can't imagine if I had all of these games to learn from. Maybe I can still learn something from them now ;-)

</comment><comment><USER20> For a brief moment, I considered porting some of these to JavaScript, but then I read one of the program listings ... Nevermind! I forgot how painful BASIC was.

</comment><comment><USER21> I had this (and the second book) and learned some of my first programming by making them run on my TI 99/4A

</comment><comment><USER11> This is awesome, looks like a great book. Some really good ideas for games, which I could use to illustrate my own language. It would be fun to add graphics or sound functions to some of these games, while keeping the code simple.

The first version of this book was published in 1973, and Microsoft has published a new version this year (2010)! I prefer the simpler style of BASIC used in the originals.

<comment><USER11> I was going to buy the microsoft version, but BASIC is not Basic without PRINT! (They use TextWindow.WriteLine() or some nonsense. Who would type that 500 times to write a game?) And their substitute for DATA is hideous. Compare:

[http://computerscienceforkids.com/DavidAhlsSmallBasicCompute...](http://computerscienceforkids.com/DavidAhlsSmallBasicComputerGamesSampleChapter.aspx)

<http://www.atariarchives.org/basicgames/showpage.php?page=49> <http://www.atariarchives.org/basicgames/showpage.php?page=46>

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> These were mighty popular around the pioneering years of home computers. During my childhood I owned several of them, of which I still have two, related to the various systems I grew up with (VIC-20, C-64, MSX and so on).

</comment><comment><USER15> Thanks for posting this! I have a physical copy at home. This is from a time that was similar to now, when hackers were building things and showing them off. I'd say I miss those days, but right now is a pretty good time to be a hacker.

Pet project of mine: several times I have built BASIC interpreters that are compatible with the MS-BASIC used in these books (BASIC Computer Games, More BASIC Computer Games). I keep thinking about doing one in Ruby.

</comment><comment><USER23> I had a very similar book in 1993 when I was 5 years old, for qBasic. Got me started with programming.</comment>


Hard Drive Cost per Gigabyte - <AUTHOR> https://www.backblaze.com/blog/hard-drive-cost-per-gigabyte/ <comment><USER2> I wrote a thing to pull the prices of all the hard drives on Amazon every 12 hours and sort them by price per GB. [https://diskprices.com/](https://diskprices.com/)

<comment><USER3> I'm still wondering why external drives are cheaper than internal ones.

It seems silly that if I wanted to buy an 8TB drive for my desktop I should buy an external and toss the enclosure.

My only guess is market pressure because of higher demand. Possibly externals drives are pulled from older stock? Does anyone have another explanation?

<comment><USER4> Be careful about what drives you do this with - I've seen reports of some of these drives not having standard SATA headers once they're shucked.

<comment><USER5> Are you referring to the 2.5" HDDs with native USB connectors? I've never come across an external 3.5" HDD like that.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I would be interested in seeing the log of the prices on the vertical axis. The curve seems to fit the exponential decline in prices that I expect to see. I think the difference in regimes would be more clear cut that way.

Just picking the end points and the middle, I see: (11 cents, 2009), (5 cents, 2013), (2.8 cents, 2017). So it went from slightly more than halving in cost in the first 4 years (55% reduction) to slightly less than halving in cost in the second 4 years (44% reduction). There's definitely a bit of a slowdown there, but not the huge difference that the article claims.

Of course, the first half includes the Thailand flood, and the second half doesn't. Googling for some historical data leads me to [http://www.mkomo.com/cost-per-gigabyte](http://www.mkomo.com/cost-per- gigabyte), which claims that (from 1980-2010), the cost of a gigabyte has been halving in about 14 months, which is closer to the decay pre-Thailand flood.

<comment><USER7> That is exactly what I thought - it seems to follow the exponential decay. A quick and dirty graph with logarithmic scale on price: [https://imgur.com/a/90a4p](https://imgur.com/a/90a4p)

Pretty much a straight line, except for the Thailand hiccup.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> There's a clear regime shift in the slope pre/post Thai floods. It's not a surprise that the floods set back Kryder's law by years, but does anyone have any insight in why it would affect the rate of progress and switch hard drives to a much slower rate of improvement? Surely the floods wouldn't still affect investment or R&D? Or is the timing merely a coincidence and reflect consumer demand being saturated, switches to SSD etc?

<comment><USER9> There was also some consolidation at that same time. For example, Western Digital purchased Hitachi in 2012. At around the same time, Fujitsu, Lacie, and Samsung also were acquired.

[http://www.itcandor.com/hard-disk-suppliers/](http://www.itcandor.com/hard- disk-suppliers/)

<comment><USER10> Lacie, as far as I am aware, never manufactured their own hard drives. Look here for example in 2006 [http://forums.macresource.com/read.php?1,85231,85262](http://forums.macresource.com/read.php?1,85231,85262)

> Thank you for your email. We use a few different manufacturers, so we would > not be able to tell you which drives go to which item (except the 500GB > drives which are Hitachi). In general we do use Western Digital, Seagate, > and we did use Maxtor before they were bought by Western Digital. For DVDs, > we use Samsung.

Wikipedia says , much earlier:

> As a subsidiary of Quantum, La Cie was licensed as the exclusive > manufacturer of Apple-branded external SCSI hard drives, using Quantum hard > disks.

<comment><USER11> This confirms what I remember. A 3D modeller I worked with was deeply upset when Maxtor took over Quantum as the 2Gb SCSI disks that were carried around at the time were LaCie, apparently with Quantum disks which were allegedly the best for replaying video frames. At the time I did not know LaCie was owned by Quantum. Back then there wasn't the internet to quickly Google brands so you only had marketing information to go on.

<comment><USER10> o_O Maxtor purchased Quantum in October 2000. This is the same month when Adwords left beta. What the heck are you talk of? By 2000 home broadband is beginnning to spread, dial up Internet is everyday in most of the so called developed world.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> The key flaw in this analysis is that the author is only using consumer grade drives from Amazon. And yes, I think what is going on is that consumers don't really need much more than 4TB. Heck, most consumers have trouble filling 1 or 2TB. It's for the same reason that drive managed SMR drives haven't really been a big thing, in the consumer market. Who cares about 15-20% more bytes when you can't use all of the bytes in a 4TB CMR drive?

Companies at the "hyper-scale cloud companies" (e.g., Facebook, Amazon, Microsoft, Google) can actually use the extra bytes, and they are probably the ones that will be able to use the 10TB, 12TB, 14TB, 16TB etc. drive that are on the vendors' roadmap[1].

[1] [http://www.pcworld.com/article/3162084/storage/seagates- road...](http://www.pcworld.com/article/3162084/storage/seagates-roadmap- includes-14tb-16tb-hard-drives-within-18-months.html)

It may be that Amazon might not be interested in stocking these drives because they won't sell enough of them to consumers. And if some of the discussions proposed in Google's "Disks for Data Centers"[2] paper come to fruition, such as adding a second disk actuator arm, or changing the height of the disk drives, there might be a further diversion between drives optimized for the consumer market and drives optimized for the "hyper-scale cloud market". (Note: the intent of Google publishing this paper is to hopefully allow discussions amongst the community of hyper-scale cloud storage customers to work with the HDD vendors for something that helps the whole high capacity storage industry.)

[2] [https://research.google.com/pubs/pub44830.html](https://research.google.com/pubs/pub44830.html)

<comment><USER8> > The key flaw in this analysis is that the author is only using consumer > grade drives from Amazon

? This is Backblaze, a commercial storage company. They buy in bulk in thousands of drives, not from Amazon, and the prices are what they paid. As they say, "The price you might get at Costco or BestBuy, or on Amazon will most likely be higher." It's the trend and comparisons which matter, not so much the absolute price.

<comment><USER12> In the article the author asserted that BackBlaze was typically only using consumer drives. So that makes them very different from the companies in the "hyper-scale cloud storage" market.

And if the trends the author is talking about consumer disk drives, I would argue that's a very incomplete picture. It doesn't include the traditional enterprise users, and it doesn't include hyper-scale storage companies that are using the bigger disks. Or else why else do you think that Seagate is putting 14T and larger drives on their roadmap: [http://www.pcworld.com/article/3162084/storage/seagates- road...](http://www.pcworld.com/article/3162084/storage/seagates-roadmap- includes-14tb-16tb-hard-drives-within-18-months.html)

This is very different from what the article was asserting, which was that disks weren't getting much bigger, and that they aren't getting cheaper per gigabyte. Even from a trend perspective, it's just not correct. (For example, it's not taking SMR disks into account; but that's because the consumers will probably not be interested in SMR drives.)

<comment><USER13> > BackBlaze was typically only using consumer drives

Disclaimer: I work at Backblaze. If anybody is curious, in our blog posts we list the exact serial numbers of all of the drives. See here for an example: [https://www.backblaze.com/blog/wp- content/uploads/2017/05/bl...](https://www.backblaze.com/blog/wp- content/uploads/2017/05/blog-hd-stats-q1-2017-table.jpg)

We have been at this for a while, and the distinction between "consumer drive" and "enterprise drive" is not what most people think it is. But in the end it simply doesn't matter -> the differences between failure rates of individual MODELS of drives in one line is larger than any difference in failure rates of "consumer" vs "enterprise".

<comment><USER12> It's not just "consumer drive" versus "enterprise drive". It's also "consumer drive" versus "hyper-scale cloud storage drive". Google used to use consumer drives (and the latter category didn't used to exist) but the world has moved on, and if you are looking for the lowest storage TCO (again, please see Google's "Disks for Data Centers" paper), I'm going to suggest it's a lot more than just using 4T drives.

Hint: you're assuming the only cost is just the raw spindle. You also need to take into account the cost of power, cooling, some portion of the server that the disk is attached to, the cost of the tray, etc., etc., etc. This is all in the "Disks for Data Center" paper, so I'm not giving away any corporate secrets.

Disclaimer: I work at Google and I am a co-author (but only in a very small way) of the "Disks for Data Centers" paper. We have also been at this for a while...

<comment><USER13> > Hint: you're assuming the only cost is just the raw spindle.

Not me, not sure who you are responding to? I was just correcting the record that Backblaze ONLY used "consumer" drives when some of our drive serial numbers are "enterprise" drives, I wasn't commenting on total cost of ownership.

Backblaze has our own spreadsheet of total cost of ownership, and we are mostly deploying 8 TByte drives right now because the increased density means renting fewer cabinets and paying less for electricity. I'll just make the point that the spreadsheet takes the inputs of WHICH DATACENTER because different locations pay different amounts for electricity.

> I am a co-author of the "Disks for Data Centers" paper.

I read it when it came out, it is filled with good ideas, concepts, possibilities, and suggestions. Very worth reading. However, it is all about spinning drives, which may not be the lowest cost and highest performance in "X" number of years. There is a lot of disagreement around this point (even within Backblaze) but I think "X" is "really close" like within two years. Even if the individual SSD costs more per GByte, like you brought up, the savings in electricity (our number one datacenter cost) are really good which might make up for it soon (again, depending on the region they are deployed in).

But for at least the next two years (and possibly five?), I think we all know we're deploying spinning drives. :-)

<comment><USER12> Well, the Backblaze blog post only talks about the raw spindle costs, and strongly implies that 4TB drives were the lowest cost option and ignores the existence of any disks larger than 8TB. Which is true only if you are talking about consumer drives and only concerned about raw spindle costs. Otherwise, it's a highly misleading post.

The electricity cost and the fractional share of the disk tray and server to attach the HDD are mostly constant no matter whether you use a 4TB, 8TB, 10TB, or 14TB disk. So if you are only worried about renting fewer cabinets and paying less for electricity, then if 8TB drives make sense, 14TB drives would make even more sense, no?

Of course, you have to worry about more than just bytes; you also have to worry about IOPS. So it starts being about whether you can use nearly all of the IOPS in every drive. (This is why having a "hot pool" and a "cold pool" of disks really don't make that much sense. You'll leaving money on the table by wasting the potential usable IOPS in your cold pool. Instead you can get a much more TCO positive solution by mixing your hot and cold data so you case use most of the IOPS and most of the bytes for all of your drives.)

But if you think SSD's are so "cheap", why not use 14TB drives plus SSD's? Perhaps because using SSD's for storage (as opposed to cache) really isn't that cheap as people think. Sure, lots of IOPS, but unless the bytes you need to read are the right ones to be stored in the SSD, the cost per byte for SSD's is quite astronomical, even taking electricity, server attachment costs, etc., into account.

As a result, I believe using large numbers of spinning drives will make sense for a lot longer than you think.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Many people are saying here that the slowing of the rate of change is due to business consolidation... I would argue that it is probably due to physics instead. The traditional way of storing more data on a platter, shrinking the size of each bit, has just about run out. Each bit is now stored on a handful of atoms. The drive manufacturers are trying new things to get around this problem (e.g. shingling) but once each bit is down to a few atoms you can't really go any smaller. Further improvements in disk technology will probably have to be a bit more radical.

<comment><USER15> Except oddly enough, you can frequently buy a drive wrapped in a USB enclosure for 10-15% less than the bare drive...

Plus, the sleep modes on a lot of "consumer" drives significantly slow them down when used in a desktop environment (as well as creating second long pauses in RAID arrays with more than 5-6 drives), and the option to disable that "feature" is slowly disappearing on drives without the "enterprise" tax.

Market segmentation shenanigans like this would never fly in a healthy competitive market are now very common.

<comment><USER14> That's true. Honestly I'm just hoping that HGST keeps their reputation as reliable HDDs even though they've been bought by WD. Backblaze always found that they fail less often.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> And SSD costs still 10x per GB... Hoping that comes down.

<comment><USER17> Agreed, I'm having to constantly manage space and move media files to external drives to keep using a SSD for my primary drive. I bought 30GB, 128GB, and 256GB drives as prices came down and I had hoped 1TB drives would be under $200 by now. Not even close. What is worse, I built a new desktop and planned to use a M.2 SSD for even higher speeds. That's a long way off now and will probably have to wait for the next build.

Truly a first-world problem but damn, where are my cheap SSD's?

<comment><USER18> They're here.

Samsung 960 EVO 500GB at $250. That's insane my friend. I guess it depends how long you've been in the game.

I remember my 40MB drive being huge after we upgraded from a 12MB drive. It was truly hard to find enough to fill it up with.

<comment><USER19> Once tiny tiny sad thing, they shifted the entry models since. I used to find 40$ average but good brand (intel) ssd; now it's impossible.

<comment> mark-r That's exactly the opposite of the way I expected things to turn out. Hard drives with their moving parts have a floor on the price, just because you can't get all those parts any cheaper; the only way to get the $/TB lower is to keep making them bigger. SSDs have no such problem, so I expected on the low end we'd see SSDs undercutting hard drives by a lot. Where are the $20 SSDs?

<comment><USER18> Here: [https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B010Q588D4?tag=slicinc-20&...](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B010Q588D4?tag=slicinc-20&ascsubtag=4fa774ec666211e7886b0e774cf9d6690INT)

<comment><USER19> I often run from usb flash drives, never tried a recent micro sd; I wonder how different they are in terms of everything.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> I noticed and was irritated with the 4 Tb anomaly when I was setting up a RAID6 trying to achieve 30 Tb of usable space after mirroring and a hot spare.

<comment><USER20> Enterprise class,btw

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> Judging by the price points it seems that they're not buying enterprise level HDDs. There is no way you could buy an enterprise HDD today at $0.02 per GB. I bought a 4TB Seagate Constellation a couple of months ago and the price was more like $0.06 per GB.

<comment><USER22> They mention it in their article, as well as many of their other articles. They use "consumer" drives.

For a more in-depth explanation, see [https://www.backblaze.com/blog/enterprise-drive- reliability/](https://www.backblaze.com/blog/enterprise-drive-reliability/)

<comment><USER13> Copy and pasted from my response in a different comment:

> BackBlaze was typically only using consumer drives

Disclaimer: I work at Backblaze. If anybody is curious, in our blog posts we list the exact serial numbers of all of the drives. See here for an example: [https://www.backblaze.com/blog/wp- content/uploads/2017/05/bl...](https://www.backblaze.com/blog/wp- content/uploads/2017/05/blog-hd-stats-q1-2017-table.jpg)

We have been at this for a while, and the distinction between "consumer drive" and "enterprise drive" is not what most people think it is. But in the end it simply doesn't matter -> the differences between failure rates of individual MODELS of drives in one line is larger than any difference in failure rates of "consumer" vs "enterprise".

TL;DR - Backblaze uses both "consumer" and "enterprise" drives. But check the individual drive serial number, that is more important than arbitrary marketing groupings.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> When can we finally start measuring cost per TB ?

The need to constantly multiply numbers by 1,000 is rather annoying. Yes, we can all do it, but still.

</comment><comment><USER24> I want to hear from people who are:

1) Coders, not designers

2) Use machine only for production, nothing "fun"

Do you ever feel the need for going above 256 G?

I have 3 operating systems installed- Win10, Win7, Arch, About 20GB of media, Office 2015, etc on my primary production machine but I'm still using less than 120 GB. I'm asking because I'm wondering if any developer has a reason to not go for sub-100$ SSD ~ 256 GB and instead opt for 4TB of HDD?

<comment><USER25> Only because consumer filesystems suck.

I'd love to have a completely versioned filesystem, at all times, regardless of how big it got.

<comment><USER26> I am working on such a thing. Would you be interested in testing it?

<comment><USER25> I didn't see this before! Please feel free to ping it my way, and I'll let you know what my experiences are.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> The lowering costs of 8tb HDD's combined with it being Amazon Prime day, means you can get one of these bad boys for only $150. I just ordered 2.

[https://www.amazon.com/Seagate-Expansion-Desktop-External- ST...](https://www.amazon.com/Seagate-Expansion-Desktop-External- STEB8000100/dp/B01HAPGEIE/ref=sr_1_3/130-8064997-0146330?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1499794547&sr=1-3&keywords=8tb+external+hard+drive)</comment>


Ask HN: SaaS+experts flavor of startups? - <AUTHOR> A few years ago when I founded Lokad.com, I would have described this business as B2B SaaS for inventory forecasting. However, nowadays, pure SaaS is only a tiny fraction of our business: we primarily sell a combo SaaS+experts with a very hands-on approach.
I am wondering how this flavor of software company gets commonly named or described?
What Lokad does would be akin to buy an AdWords package where Google would also provide an in-house expert to entirely run the account. Since we do inventory optimization, Lokad does not have the obvious conflict of interest that Google would have, but other than that, the degree of technicality involved is not dissimilar to what you would expect from managing an AdWords account.
A few salient elements: - the Lokad team is, by far, the No1 user group of our own software. - client discussion typically starts by defining relatively open goals. - we "negotiate" a lot of the business trade-off with the clients. - the client may almost never touch the app if only to download results.
We are not consultingware, the app is multi-tenant and fairly packaged. We are not a consulting agency either, as the business remains dominantly a software business (high ratio of developers, etc). <comment><USER2> My two cents: Thing is it's not SaaS software because the value in SaaS is near 0 marginal costs to add new users(outside marketing). Also, it sounds like you have a niche type of user. So, the virility factor would probably be lower(lower marketing costs). Not to say you can't build a big business just outside financing would be difficult and of little value. If you try to grow to fast and can't train your experts properly you will lose customers. And if you growing at a decent pace anyway you only save a couple of years to give up a bunch of your company.</comment>


Watch – A Useful Linux Command You May Have Never Heard Of - <AUTHOR> http://beerpla.net/2007/08/04/watch-a-useful-linux-command-you-may-have-never-heard-of/

<comment><USER2> _How many times did I want to watch a directory waiting for a file to appear in it?_

For this sort of thing I use a simple perl script called atchange. I could do:

       atchange . ls

And I'd see list output whenever a new file appeared in the directory. The hacky thing I usually use it for:

       atchange my_source_file make

to make things rebuild when I save my_source_file in my editor.

The script is here: <http://www.ccrnp.ncifcrf.gov/~toms/ftp/atchange> The webpage about it is here: <http://www-lmmb.ncifcrf.gov/~toms/atchange.html>

I first learnt about it years ago while reading the entertaining ``Work'' Columns by Jeffreys Copeland & Haemer: <http://alumnus.caltech.edu/~copeland/work/>

<comment><USER3> Much better, because its doesn't keep spamming you even when nothing has changed so far.

<comment><USER4> I was thinking you could pipe watch into uniq, but then you wouldn't get any results until you killed it. The hexdump utility has adjacent duplicate line detection, and something similar would be trivial to create.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> A nitpicky thing, but kudos to the post author for including the word "may" in the title.

I'm not sure if my ego is being stoked or bruised, but it irks me every time I see a post like "10 Commands You've Never Heard Of"... and it's either a list of esoteric commands used by low level coders or commands that have fallen out of favor over the years.

And I'm familiar with every one of them. I've seen this round of knowledge cycle full circle a couple times now. I can't imagine the eye rolling of neckbeards who've been around professionally since the 80s.

<comment> mkr-hn What happens is someone will read 30 blogs on blogging that say "hey lists are awesome," then whip up a random list without much thought, expecting fame and fortune.

It only works if you're either exceptionally clever, or are passing out some original information.

<comment><USER5> It seems like the normal readership are drawn to these kinds of list posts. Perhaps because they are "busy" and want to learn quickly by absorbing information nuggets. I question that they actually learn anything.

MSNBC (and by extension, their advertisers) has really been taking advantage of it by drawing readers to their many recent "top ten" lists.

<comment> mkr-hn Well there's different kinds of lists. A list could be a bunch of bullet points and <= 3 sentences each, or a narrow list of 3-5 where a lot is covered in each.

The latter can be extremely informative and provide a good starting point for someone. The former is filler.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> For the problem of watching the last lines of something: a few options, you can pipe to tac, e.g.

      watch 'ls -l | tac'

which reverses the lines of the output, or if it is something like a log file, you can forget about watch completely and just use tail -f, e.g.

      tail -f logfile.log

which will print new lines as they are added to the file.

<comment><USER7> ls -lr

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> I use watch continuously for just about everything.

watch -n 1 "ps aux | grep something"

watch -n 1 "killall some-runaway-process"

etc

</comment><comment><USER9> Well, checking when your directories and files change should be a job for some inotify based tool, not periodically launched ls, sadly, inotify based version of common unix utilities are still very optional and hackish, not found in the base distro.

<comment><USER2> Thanks! When I first used atchange (detailed in another comment) I saw mention of things _like_ inotify, but didn't have the kernel support on the system I was using.

Fast-forwarding to now, having just installed inotify-tools (Debian/Ubuntu package):

       while true; do inotifywait . &> /dev/null ; ls ; done

is a much more responsive version of:

       atchange . ls

I should probably make a wrapper that uses inotify when available and degrades to atchange's brute force approach when necessary.

<comment><USER10> To resemble the atchange script, try this usage of inotifywait:

      while true; do inotifywait -qq -e modify [filename]; [command]; done

or as a shell function, defined in .bashrc to have the same form as the atchange perl script:

      function atchange(){
        while true;
        do inotifywait -qq -e modify $1;
        $2;
        done

<comment><USER2> Thanks. Below is the version I'm trying. It allows multiple-argument commands, doesn't stomp on atchange if inotifywait isn't installed and I wanted it to fire when touching files as well as modifying them.

      if which inotifywait > /dev/null ; then
          function atchange(){
              FILE="$1"
              shift
              while inotifywait -qq -e modify -e attrib "$FILE"; do
                  "$@";
          done;}
      fi

Looking again at atchange it deliberately waits after first noticing the file has been modified, in case something is still modifying it. It fires once writing has stopped for at least a second. I'm not sure if I need that in my use cases, but its authors clearly did so I'm pointing out that the above shell function does not provide a true like-for-like replacement. (Also atchange allows a single argument to be a command_file, functionality I never use.)

EDIT changed the "while true" so that the function stops on an error rather than infinitely looping when something goes wrong, like FILE ceasing to exist. A file temporarily disappearing would scupper the script though, whereas the perl script deals quietly with that.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I use 'watch' to continuously run my suite of unit tests. I write a new test, it starts failing while looping under 'watch', then I write code to make it pass.

<comment><USER12> I have used it for ram memory (free) and processes (ps) monitoring.

<comment><USER13> Doesn't top do the same job?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> This would've been better as a simple link to a man page, I think.

<comment><USER15> I think the article does a better job of explaining why you might want to use watch than man watch does.

<comment><USER14> Really? What part of the article was more useful than the man page?

      diff the-article the-man-page | wc -w
      => 75

<comment><USER15> Well then, I guess it must be the 75 words.

<comment><USER14> The summary of those 75 words is "I want to watch for file changes but am too lazy to write a Perl script. Look at this. `man watch`"

I guess we just disagree about what part of the post is useful.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Hm, is there a similar command for this on the mac (that is installed by default)?

I looked around and this is all I could find: <http://www.sveinbjorn.org/watch_macosx>

I have a bunch of while loops written in bash, but would prefer something cleaner.

<comment><USER17> You can install it using MacPorts.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> Just this week I found the program "gorun" which does this. Unlike watch, gorun does not poll. It uses inotify. <http://github.com/peterbe/python-gorun>

</comment><comment><USER19> I use something like this to watch the processes that are running or waiting for IO

      watch -n 1 ps -eo pid,ppid,wchan=WIDE-WCHAN-COLUMN,stat,command r

<comment><USER4> Nice. However, it doesn't account for activity during the gap between samples, while sorting by CPU usage in top or by I/O usage in iotop does.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> For the impatient, watch takes decimals:

      watch -n .2 <cmd>

and it'll go every .2 seconds

</comment><comment><USER21> What an awful name for such a tool. Unix commands have the command as subject, not the user (examples: ls, find, make, touch, shutdown). From the name and the 'ls' example, I expected something that reacted to file system notifications, but this doesn't watch, it repeats a command, clearing the screen before every iteration.

<comment><USER22> You're watching the output of a command. In what world exactly, is the name 'watch' unclear or a poor choice?

<comment><USER23> I think the person you're responding to felt that Unix command should describe what you're telling the computer to do: "ls" makes the computer list files, "find" makes the computer find things, "echo" makes the computer echo what you give it, etc.

"watch" does not make the computer watch anything (at least in its default mode of operation); it makes the computer run a command repeatedly and the _user_ watches it. "repeat" or "refresh" might have been more consistent names.

<comment><USER21> Yes, that is what I was complaining about. An alternative, consistent with 'at', could be 'every':

      *every 2s ls*

      *echo "ls" | every 5m

For readability, I would then drop the default for the time interval; the command without the time interval ( _every ls_ ) reads awfully.

And yes, that first way of specifying what to repeat is different from the way at does it. I am not sure I would want to follow 'at' in that respect.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> It looks like watch is usually used on Linux. watch(8) for FreeBSD is something totally different.

[http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/*bsd-17/linux- watch-...](http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/*bsd-17/linux-watch-vs-bsd- watch-292342/) gnu-watch, cmdwatch, gnuwatch etc.

</comment><comment><USER25> A couple of months ago, I was doing some nasty shell hacking, and I came across 'tsort'. It is of limited utility in my day to day existence, but when I needed it, I _really_ needed it. Thanks, whichever hacker decided it should be a standalone utility!

<comment><USER26> Context: tsort is a topological sorter, which is nice for handling & finding loops in dependency graphs.

IIRC there's an example in _The Awk Programming Language_ implementing a toy make out of a topological sorter. (Edit: pgs. 170-8.)

<comment><USER25> Right, I should have said.

EDIT: Topological sorting is one of those tools that really comes in handy -- it's easy enough to implement, but I didn't want to spend the time either (a) writing it in zsh or (b) rewriting the rest of the shell pipeline in Python or something. 'tsort' to the rescue! I just wish I could remember where I read about it so I could go buy whoever was at the other end of the Google search a beer.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> If you want to see which mysql queries are running in almost-realtime, you could do:

      watch -n 1 -d 'echo "SHOW PROCESSLIST;" | mysql'

<comment><USER28> You might find mytop easier for this, it also allows hiding sleeping processes etc.

<comment><USER27> Good tip. Thank you for pointing this out.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> It's a GNU command rather than "Linux". Does anybody care or know the difference?

<comment><USER30> I was wondering if it was required by SUS, and it doesn't look like it: <http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/> . On my system running the Ubuntu distribution of GNU/Linux, it is provided by the procps package, with homepage at <http://procps.sourceforge.net/> . I grabbed the source and had a look and there's nothing that says that it's part of GNU, nor are is the copyright owned by the FSF. Contrast this with the GNU coreutils, which mention GNU specifically in the README and have the FSF named as the copyright holder in the source files. There's very little to suggest that it's a GNU package, although calling it a "Linux" command is still technically inaccurate, I suppose, even if everyone knows what you mean. It seems to me to be like other common abuses of notation, such as saying f(x) = O(x) as opposed to f(x) \in O(x).

<comment><USER13> Nitpick: f(x) \in O(x) is still an abuse. f \in O(id) would be better. Or f \in O(fun x -> x). Where f \in (R -> R).

<comment><USER30> Noted. Thanks.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> while 1; do ls; sleep 5; done

<comment><USER32> Closer to watch -

      while 1; do datetime; ls; sleep 2; done

<comment><USER20> I used to do:

      while true; do date; ls; sleep 2; clear; done

but got tired of it and searched apt for watch.

      apt-get install procps

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> Is there an equivalent syscall for this?

</comment><comment><USER34> Ah, the larval stage, how cute.

When I want to monitor a directory, I let the kernel tell me via inotify.</comment>


Show HN: WeTube. Sync YouTube player across multiple devices - <AUTHOR> https://wetube.glitch.me <comment><USER2> Back button just refresh the page on android, very annoying.

<comment><AUTHOR> Sorry. Worked on mine, we must be testing on different browsers/versions, but it might have to be that root path pushes Vue's router to a shareable URL.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> What's the stack? You should do a blog post!

<comment><USER4> You can view the source here - [https://glitch.com/edit/#!/wetube](https://glitch.com/edit/#!/wetube). Quite nicely done!

<comment><AUTHOR> Hey thanks! right, that's the link. It's hosted on glitch so you can see/edit/fork it.

I've tried to keep it simple, but couldn't improve latency anymore. No matter if it's using socket.io or some faster network transport, there will be some latency. So I've used server's time as reference for clients to adjust the player's current time across devices.

However, there's still a delay added by the YouTube player when triggering the play action. It's an async action, and YouTube's embed player API _seekTo_ method seems to be rounding or not updating if the player is already playing in the nearby time. I'm not sure what else to do to achieve a perfect sync.</comment></comment></comment>