Ask HN: I'm depressed, what should I do? - <AUTHOR> I'm an active member of this community but I'm using a throwaway instead because I don't want this issue to be linked to my identity
tl;dr: I graduated Software engineering 3 months ago and I'm currently without a job and back to live with my parents.
During school I was always told that I was "brilliant and one of the best". I tried not to show it with any attitude, but after a lot of people repeating over a period of many years, I think it entered the back of my mind but still with impostor syndrome.
On my final year I interned at a very prestigious company (not big 4, but still a huge one) with a great salary and an important project. Everything seemed to go the way everybody predicted and expected of me.
At the end of my internship, my manger lets me know that I will not be hired because the company is not hieing junior engineers at this time, but he would gladly recommend me to anyone.
I sent my resume to more than a 100 companies and I got a decent number of responses, interviews and even offers. However, all of the offer were with not-that-interesting tech stacks and really bad compensations.
For me it was not about the money, but a show of how much a company appreciate me and how they think of me.
I refused all the contracts so far, and the responses are fewer everyday. I'm eve, starting to regret not accepting a couple of them, after all this is maybe what i'm really worth and I was in a bubble all that time.
A few weeks ago I realized that I was gaining weight, and that I'm no longer interested in social interactions or my hygiene.
I told my family that, i got laughed at and was asked to find a job and stop being spoiled and lazy.
I don't know what to do.
Pick the next offer I get because there may not be another? See a professional about my current mental health?
I realize that this is more an anonymous rant than an Ask HN but I have no one else to ask <comment><USER2> I don't know you, but I'm proud of you. And frankly, you should be very proud of yourself. Want to know why?

Writing this demonstrates something very important about your character. When you feel backed into a corner, you don't just hide away and hope that the situation passes. Instead, you fight to get yourself out of the situation. This is huge and frankly, this trait will serve you well in the future.

Other people have given you some wonderful, actionable advice and I don't want to repeat their words, so I'll cut it off there. But seriously, be proud of yourself.

Everything will work out and you will be okay. If you feel stuck, my email address is in my profile - reach out and I'll help you however I can.

Be safe.

</comment><comment><USER3> Op here:

Thank you everyone for your input and over all support! This kind of support -and even "tough love"\- reminds me why I love being a member of this community.

You're right, reading about people changing the world, and SF salaries with my school bubble distorted my vision.

I will send an email to the company that said will wait for me, and continue to apply elsewhere and accept the first decent offer (where I can get experience with a compensation that would let me pay for rent and food).

I will also try to do some self-help using the materials shared here and try to fight off the dark feelings.

I will also probably tap into my savings and move back to the city where I used to live ASAP.

Thank you again all for your support. I know it is not resolved, but at least now I know what I need to do.

</comment><comment><USER4> It seems reasonable that you are suffering some form of depression, even if it is transitory in nature. Good part is that makes you human and no better or worse then anyone else.

Just my 2 cents, but this is part of what becoming independent is all about, you have to make decisions based on the information you have and not focus on the next great thing all the time, nor allow yourself to be insulated in your thoughts so much. Your reality should be, if you received offers all around the same rough compensation, then that is likely the going rate for a new grad with your skill set and presentation in the areas you applied. Accept the best one with the team you feel you fit best with (that is more important then raw compensation) and move forward. You can always change later as you gain some experience. Don't wait for the perfect solution right now, move forward and change if you need to later.

You are still really fresh out of school so you can still accept a reasonable offer and the faster you start contributing to a team the faster you will feel better. Get focused, get organized and accept your reality so that you can change it. I don't care what your reality is, it is always changeable by you. Other people can help, but in the end you are the only one that can act to change your circumstance.

If you need to go see someone to talk through how you feel, do it, don't hesitate. There are too many people afraid to seek out help, go do it, celebrate that you are enlightened enough to recognize it and get the little extra guidance. Most of the time it is that simple, talking it out with someone who has empathy but can help lead you on a path to pull yourself up. You don't sound like you are in a bad situation, just not where you thought you'd be, so it is far easier to fix today then 3, 6, 9 months from now if you do nothing.

Take care, good luck.

<comment><AUTHOR> There is a company that told me that they're still interested in me if I ever change my mind.

The job is basically building a news-web application for a client (hardly solving world hunger or any "real" problem) and the pay will be mostly enough to rent and eat.

Do you really think I should just "suck it up" and do it until something better comes in a few years?

Or should I keep sending emails?

<comment><USER4> I'd seriously think about taking it. Even if it is temporary and you decide to move on in 6 months or a year. It isn't ideal in some ways, but it may go a lot further towards helping your mental feeling then you realize.

I'd also agree that you get established with a physician and talk to them. Even a GP can a lot of times help walk you through this while you start your new job etc.

And just cause you take a job doesn't mean you have to stop looking for your passion. Keep up the search but take a job.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Wow, all those rejections sound painful. I'm sorry.

So a few things: First, feeling down, rejected, etc., sound pretty normal to me given what you've described. That's not to say that I think that you should simply ride it out, suck it up, etc. If it was that easy there would be a lot less suffering in general. You're clearly cognizant that something's not right, though, and the fact that you're acting on that seems pretty healthy to me.

Try reddit. I can't suggest any specific subs, but I've found the communities that are supportive to be very supportive. If you're struggling with simply reaching out, that's one place I would start.

Yes, please do consider a therapist (or a career coach, etc.). The thing with depression is that it horribly distorts your perspective, and as you've touched on, begins a wicked feedback loop. It can be difficult to dig yourself out of that hole, and digging in can have serious consequences. Getting in touch with someone who can provide accurate information and context about _your_ experience, and how _you_ want to sort things out.

Sunshine and physical activity, as well as getting out in public are excellent moderators of depression. But they're not fixes.

Finally, if you take only one thing from this, I hope it's this: There's nothing wrong with feeling the way you do. There's nothing wrong with seeking out expert opinion on how to manage your life. Depression is manageable, especially episodic depression, such as you describe. Please please don't let yourself fall into the trap of thinking that it's a weakness or a character defect.

I sincerely wish you the best of luck on your journey. Hang in there.

</comment><comment><USER6> Why not start a side project? Don't know what to do? I'm sure there is something you use that you could make just as good or better start there.

You don't need a gym, maybe just go for a run near your house to start, less excuses to not do it.

Lastly, have you though of buying a journal? The actual act of writing your thoughts down (vs typing) is therapeutic and may help you to work through some of your emotions

</comment><comment><USER7> // For me it was not about the money, but a show of how much a company appreciate me and how they think of me. //

Never think this. Never assume this.

Talking to a company about salary is a business transaction. It's a negotiation. Unless you're somehow at the type of unicorn where they're not only small, but already have a lot of $$ (basically nothing out there right now) there isn't going to be any amount of "oh yeah, we like you" that will significantly impact your compensation.

// However, all of the offer were with not-that-interesting tech stacks and really bad compensations. // How 'bad' is 'bad' here if you don't mind me asking? Also, mostly startups or what?

<comment><USER3> Bad: as in mostly for rent & food, forget about savings.

Details (if it matters): Country: France Yearly salary before taxes : ~31000 euros

<comment><USER8> Wow that is bad.

<comment><USER9> Definitely NOT bad for France. I'm french and started at 18000 yearly.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> First off, I'm so sorry that you're going through this. Please know that you are very much not alone. And yes, seeing a professional is the best route.

Check out [http://osmihelp.org](http://osmihelp.org). Great group of folks and lots of resources there.

I also gave a talk on this a while back: [http://baugues.com/depression](http://baugues.com/depression)

<comment><USER3> Thank you for the links

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> As @hluska said, this is brave to express your feelings, this is a good start. After 2-3 years down the line you'd be looking at this post, then the problems you have shared will not quite seem actually problems or something to feel depressed about. Hear me out why.

At some point of time we all feel uncertain about things, feel like we have little control over things, we can't decide what is better for us Option A or Option B, too many decisions to make, nothing is going as planned. When you understand that this is what happens to all and a lot frequently than you might have thought, the real fun starts.

You wanted to do a job, you applied, you rejected some offers because you did not consider them good enough. That is just perfectly fine and _past_. Someone told you that you were good in school, that is also past. You are not your past or your CV. You are now in your present. Focus on what you have now, you have knowledge, you have a family and there can be many more things.

I or anyone should rather not help you in picking up your choices like should you choose the next offer or go look for some other companies. Choose whatever you want, it just fucking doesn't matter. What matters is to choose only one option and do your best to make it happen. Go to a company which does not appreciate you, work hard and earn that appreciation or the second option to figure out a way to find a company where your special skills may get appreciated or any other option you can think of.

Just brush off the shoulder, look what you have, what do you want to achieve in categories mainly health, career, family and relationships. Make a plan for the month with small goals in each category, and do your best to achieve that. Don't have answers to some questions ask, just like you did now. Revise the plan each month, your goal is to do better than the last month.

Outcome may not be in your control but your actions are in your control. And if you are taking actions to achieve your goals, you have all the rights to feel good about it.

Remember life is not a sprint, it's a marathon.

</comment><comment><USER12> I'm sure I'll get down voted but I'm putting in my anecdotal two cents, regardless.

Are you having sex? Sex is a pretty good remedy for this type of stuff.

<comment><AUTHOR> I know what you're talking about.

And no, not since I moved back with my parents

(I hardly know anyone in the city anymore and I haven't been feeling like going to meet people ever since I did, since I always thought of this as temporary and I would be leaving anytime)

<comment><USER13> Now is the time to recognize your motivations and turn them toward something better. Hunting for a job is much like hunting to attract members of the opposite sex:

1) Everybody wants someone who is already taken 2) You can't win unless you play the game 3) To get a 10, you at least need two 5's

Stop thinking of the perfect job and start thinking of ways you can build your experience to get the perfect job. With a little bit of excercise (P90 and Cracking the Coding Interview), some hero moves shown in the right places (pick the job doing something you care about) and a few peeps talking about your moves on the scene (a little open source), you'll be back in the game in no time.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Your problems may have just highlighted an issue that already existed. Talk to your doctor. Depression is a medical issue that needs treatment.

</comment><comment><USER15> It sounds like you have a pretty good idea what your next steps are already.

First, talk to a health professional who can understand and address the nuances of your situation better than anyone on HN.

Second, just consider that there is no perfect tech stack and most people don't know all of the pieces to a company's stack when they join. Perhaps there is a certain language or framework you're passionate about. I would encourage you to seek out companies using that one piece of tech through AngelList, Stack Overflow Jobs, etc.

A third thing to consider is that once you have some experience on paper, it's a huge boost for your next job. Side projects count too.

</comment><comment><USER16> My very brief 2 cents: Exercise. It's clinically proven to help combat depression. Also, don't worry so much about compensation so early in your career. Experience is worth much more than $ to you at this stage.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for your response.

I think that exercise would be a good start, so I'll check the local gyms, it would also give me something to occupy me during the days.

About compensation, every piece of advice I got so far was about properly negotiating the first because it does not grow that fast (in Europe).

<comment><USER17> Bodyweight fitness. You are your own gym!

Don't spend the money on a gym membership until you have it.

Another couple things I'd add to what others have said:

Get enough GOOD sleep.

Read. It will help you both with focus, and give your mind a break from the things that are heavy on your heart.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Stop worrying about an 'interesting tech stack'. Most development work in the world is decidedly unsexy. Watch the job market carefully over the next couple weeks and pick the most promising looking jobs (no more than say 5-10), research the companies and apply. Accept the best offer.

What you will find is that there's a lot about professional development that you need to learn yet. In time you will see your salary go up. Unless you live in one of the high cost, high salary areas like NYC, San Francisco or Seattle, you're not likely to see the crazy salaries you read about online.

<comment><USER3> I always thought I would be working on crypto or IoT or interesting products that would add something new to the world.

I guess it just was a shock to wake up to world of contractors maintaining legacy applications in JavaEE or PHP.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> >i got laughed at and was asked to find a job and stop being spoiled and lazy.

And they're right. According to the comments you're living in France. You got offers around 30k. I started at 18k. Such is life-- your first couple of jobs will probably be shitty. That's how it is. And it's good because you'll realize that you're not as good as you think and that there is many flavors of everything out there.

You'll adapt, learn, grow, and your salary will follow, as your experience.

</comment><comment><USER19> See a doctor. It's an illness like any other, and drugs will help treat it. If the first med you try doesn't work, try another. Different things work for different people.

Some people close to you won't understand at first. That's ok. Their only people, and it's hard for them to have sympathy for an illness they cant physically see.

Do at least 1 productive thing everyday. Congratulate yourself for it.

</comment><comment><USER20> > all of the offer were with not-that-interesting tech stacks and really bad > compensations.

I hate to say it, but beggars can't be choosers. You're fresh out of school with only an internship on your resume. Get some experience. If the company sucks, help make them better. If the pay sucks, it's better than no pay. Just keep looking for better options.

</comment><comment><USER21> I would take a job that offers enough compensation for you to live on your own. In my opinion, real world experience trumps a lot of what you learn during school. School is a foundation to be built upon, not the end of the road. Start earning that experience and more doors will open to you. You never know, while the tech stack might not be interesting the job could be. Tech stacks can change, try and find a product you engage with, something with more value than just a number in a column.

You may regret many decisions you make in life, the important thing is that you learn from them so they are not made twice. It may sound like a platitude, but it is something I have found to be incredibly useful.

</comment><comment><USER22> The bubble that you surround yourself with school and such kind of distorts how the real world is. You may be really great at what you do, but no one knows you. Without a direct reference it can be hard to get in some place.

I would lean toward what your family is saying, just get a job. Even if you feel that job is underpaying you and not doing something "exciting". Through this process you should learn about "selling yourself" and what employers want to have in an employee. Talent is important, but talent without being able to properly market yourself won't get you where you want to be.

</comment><comment><USER23> There are certainly things you can do right away to get things right on track. What is your workout schedule like? Are you lifting weights? Check out 5x5 or Stronglifts.

</comment><comment><USER24> I think that you should not necessarily take the next offer that comes your way, but you should change your criteria for accepting an offer. You've got to start somewhere, and it's ok for your first job to be relatively "uninteresting". You may find that you learn a lot. At the very least, you'll be getting important experience to add to your resume so that you can get closer to the job you want in the future.

</comment><comment><USER25> >Pick the next offer I get because there may not be another?

Pick the next offer you get and start living your own life.

</comment><comment><USER26> It's not personal, just business. You need money to move out and hygiene to have lovers

</comment><comment><USER27> This is a good opportunity for learning. Your perception of the world apparently did not match up with how the world actually is. We've all been there. Get back up, readjust your perspective, and accept the next offer.

</comment><comment><USER28> stop reading hacker news

</comment><comment><USER29> 1\. Take a shower, brush your teeth, make your bed, and get dressed for work every weekday. Including shoes.

2\. Spend the first 4 hours of every workday doing your best to get a job.

3\. Profit.

You're in no position to be picky right now. Get a job and get the hell out of your parents' house.

Do not chase teh shiny. There is no such thing as a "not-that-interesting tech stack" \-- some of the best gigs are writing boring code on boring tech stacks. Might not be sexy but there's satisfaction in producing rock-solid, boring code.

Reliability is interesting.

So is a paycheck.

Suck it up, buttercup. Get a job asap and after a couple years, look for a better one while you're already employed.

It's far easier to get a job when you already have one.

<comment> J-dawg I agree with the spirit of your post and I think it's good advice for someone within the range of 'normal' mental health.

However I think telling someone who is depressed to 'suck it up, buttercup' is unhelpful and potentially dangerous.

I was never properly diagnosed, but I have suffered with what I now think is depression for long periods of my life. Believe me, I told myself to 'suck it up' every single day. And my continued failure to 'suck it up' became another stick to beat myself with, and (in the warped mindset of the depressive) more evidence that I was completely, totally worthless.

Please don't ever tell a depressed person to 'just be happy' or 'suck it up' or 'snap out of it'. It doesn't work like that.

That's not to say the OP should abdicate all responsibility for his future. He should still do the other things you mention. But he should be kind to himself along the way.

One caveat: what's with the weird stigma (most prevalent, it seems, in English-speaking countries) about living with your parents? If you get along with your parents and they live in an area where there are jobs, what's wrong with staying a supportive environment and saving money for a while?

<comment><USER30> >However I think telling someone who is depressed to 'suck it up, buttercup' is unhelpful and potentially dangerous.

I didn't take it that stray was saying to suck it up and be happy or get out of the depression but suck it up and take a job that may not be the ideal job for the OP currently. There are a lot of shitty jobs out there and as a junior you are more likely to be stuck with one of those than people with experience. Take a shitty job learn what you can and then move to a better job.

<comment><USER29> Correct.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> Talk to a licensed mental health professional. It's no different than going to a doctor with a sprained knee.

</comment><comment><USER32> Cold showers are good if you can't sleep. Maybe get checked for low testosterone if you are having symptoms.

</comment><comment><USER33> Get a job at a not-that-interesting work place and let it improve while you're there. ;)

Look for a new job a year in.

</comment><comment><USER34> First

Don't give up the job hunt Unemployment is devastating You are not alone

Maybe there are other things in your life outside your CV and job situation you should address.

Definitely shower daily and lift heavy weights often.

I would recommend posting to /r/getmotivated and /r/therepill for further advice

</comment><comment><USER35> Volunteer and help someone else in need.

</comment><comment><USER36> As a guy who has also fallen from grace, several times, with heavy reality checks i would say that this is a normal reaction of coping in front of what is your first big reality check:

\- The end of school for a guy who was "one of the best" and with it: the loss of an academic status (grades) that has little to no impact on the real world ("genius" excepted), the loss of a clear path to success (study hard and it is going to be fine), a set of guidelines (everybody is equal and graded on their knowledge).

\- The first time somebody told you that not everyone will want to work with you. And with it the realisation that not everything works as you were led to believe, you are good at what you do, why would they let you go? If you were really that good why wouldn't they keep you and do everything they could to keep you?

\- Go back to father and mother, bearing this first failure, and feeling they do not completely understand.

Of course you might not think of it in those terms, but it is the reality most people, even very bright people, face after college. And in my opinion there is a great lot to be grieving about. Those are just the first realisations that will come to pass in your life about how the world is brutal and do not follow any rules you think it should follow.

You also are at a disadvantage, because you did good in school, you never had to defend yourself despite your own self-image, to fend for yourself and see the good in yourself despite the flaws. Less successful students will have learn this by now, and they are prepared to fight for their share, to promote their knowledge, to put forth their projects with affected self-confidence. That is a skillset you need to learn right now. In my opinion there is a positive way of learning it, and a very bad way of learning it. And it all comes down to how you will frame this reality, the negative way will frame this need to fight and sell yourself as a cheat, a crack in the logic, something that would make sense only for less gifted people. This model, in my opinion, couldn't be farther from the truth, it is the way of the academic and technocratic ego, that would only work for you if you were truly narcissistic. You need to let go of what was given to you in terms of status and make it your duty to build it for yourself. You should be the one creating your own status, not others.

As a Psychiatrist I would say: Since depression should occur without clear external factor, this is not a major depressive disorder, nor a minor episode, in my opinion it is a form a grief, a syndrome now called bereavement.

Of course you will see grief generally associated to the death of someone, but rarely in modern psychiatry will you see it come up when it is something inside you that died. You will see that kind of concepts, such as narcissistic collapse, in psychoanalysis, psychodynamics or other more holistic psychopathological framework. But maybe HN is not the place to go on about those.

When I am reading you, and I am not the only one to notice here in the comments, I can see a certain dynamism hidden below the apparent depression, you seek and imagine a future. A positive future in accord to your previous expectations. This is largely in favor of grief. Indeed, the main difference between grief and major depressive disorder is this fluidity, this motion of affects and thoughts that are able to go beyond the current state into a more positive future. You are also actively trying to find solutions for yourself, trying to find limits to your symptoms, they are submerging you, you can think about them, and think about yourself relatively clearly, that is another strong cue that you will get over this, and end up stronger than you were before.

The 5 stages of grief are something we use in practice but it rarely has this exact form of denial, anger, bargain, depression, acceptance. Usually you go through fast cycles of anger, despair, fatigue, hope, discouragement. Mostly discouragement and fatigue.

My advice will echo other people's comments, you should set up a healthy daily routine, which seems fairly simple but always holds in itself the secret to a fast recovery. Set even the smallest of positive healthy goal. That simple act is in itself the fastest path to resilience by changing how you frame your relationship with your mental state.

\- Most important is sleep. Do sleep at regular hours, before midnight, without your computer in bed, wake up early after your natural number of hours of sleep. If you think you need more than 8 hours, try sleeping at 11pm with blinds slightly open to let the morning light wake you before your alarm.

\- Do sports, even if only a little yogi sun salute or couple pushups in the morning (cardio would be best but hard especially in the winter !)

\- Schedule todos and positive habits: download an app like Habitica or something, and plan your days.

\- If you are not doing anything of your days, either start a side project, enroll in a class, or do something creative like cooking for example, or music.

\- Read 15 pages per day minimum of non tech-related book, maybe philosophy, or a author you like.

\- And set a mental date as to when you will stop looking and accept one of the offer. Settling for an offer that you are not 100% sure about, do not settle for one that would make your daily life a nightmare, like going someplace you know nobody and/or commute 2hours a days. Find someplace life is easy, so you can enjoy your daily life.

\- Do see your friends, be honest with them, don't hide, have a drink, play some videogames, catch a movie.

\- Take a real good care of your environment, make it something sweet, kind, light, fun. Cherish friends, and family when they are a positive force in your life, do not linger to long otherwise. A positive environment, is 90% of the work for a happy life.

On a more general note, there is usually no cure to mental illness, but the realisation that there is no cure except your own will to understand yourself, cope and do the best with what you have. Then the disease usually slowly disappears, controlled out of sight. I do not mean it in a bad way, taking back the reign of your own sanity is the real cure, this realisation do not come easy, nor is it possible for every type of illness, or every environment. This is my opinion, from having worked in the field for some years now, having also my own issues and close friends suffering from all kind of mental problems.

That's it for my two cents !

I might be mistaken but I honestly believe you'll be fine, and do not think you will drag this all your life. This will make you stronger, without any doubt in my mind.

</comment><comment><USER37> Lived out of my car for a while when I was your age. Wished I was in your position. At least you have free health care...

</comment><comment><USER38> You sound like you are being spoiled and lazy. You want your first job to be something where you are highly praised and valued every day, you only have to work on the things you want to with the people you want to work with?

You are young so you are still learning and thats ok. Try to grow up a little and realize that life is uncomfortable sometimes. That's ok. What's not ok is shutting down and giving up.</comment>


MSFT vs. GOOG vs. YHOO vs. AAPL vs. AMZN over 2 years - <AUTHOR> http://finance.google.com/finance?chdnp=1&chdd=1&chds=1&chdv=1&chvs=maximized&chdeh=0&chdet=1233003600000&chddm=207524&cmpto=NASDAQ:AMZN;NASDAQ:AAPL;NASDAQ:GOOG;NASDAQ:YHOO&cmptzos=-18000;-18000;-18000;-18000&q=NASDAQ:MSFT&ntsp=0 I ran this graph dated back to the last time I was looking for a job, just to compare how well each company has done since then.  I never would have predicted this. <comment><USER2> Great example of recency bias in investing/trading.

Take the same chart and move the slide bar to the left and see how equity performance changes. So you perception of performance will change depending on the timeframe/dataset you're viewing.

<comment><AUTHOR> I actually chose this particular time frame since it when I as last changing jobs and trying to decide between a BigCo and a startup. I didn't choose a BigCo, but even if I had it probably wouldn't have been amazon.

<comment><USER2> Hoever, I wouldn't use share price as a major determinant of company choice.

<comment><AUTHOR> Agreed. Was just thinking most about different possible outcomes and what they would have worked out like.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> Link for non-flash users: [http://ichart.finance.yahoo.com/z?s=MSFT&t=2y&q=l...](http://ichart.finance.yahoo.com/z?s=MSFT&t=2y&q=l&l=off&z=l&c=GOOG,YHOO,AAPL,AMZN&p=s&a=v&p=s)</comment>


Clockster - <AUTHOR> Hello!<p>We are a Singaporean startup Clockster (clockter.com) with an operational office in Kazakhstan would like to get to know what's needed to share editorial content about us. In brief - Clockster is an HRM system with biometrics and geofencing tracking businesses' employees time attendance. It's been a bit more than 2 years since we launched and serving our clients in Ukraine, Russia, Singapore, Kazakhstan, Thailand, US, and Czech Republic.
Please let us know what's needed from our side.
Cheers, //Anuar CMO <comment><USER2> You can submit your stuff here, but the only condition is that it must be interesting :).

Usually it is better to submit a blog post about an interesting technical problem you solved for your business, and put at the bottom more info and a link to the main page. Try to look at the submission in the main page, and find a few that are about a somewhat similar business and try to copy the style.

Not too long and not too short. Technical but not cryptic. What interesting anecdote can you tell to a technical friend that you have not seen for a year while drinking a beer?

A few photos/graphs are nice. (I like images with information, I don't like reaction gifs, but other users may disagree :( .)

Some possible technical post:

* What tech stack are you using? Why? Any problem you solved?

* Hardware? Fingers detectors? Anti cheating measures? Any problem you solved?

* Did you have problems with the fonts? We still have some problem here in Argentina with ñ, á, ... Country sensitive sorting of names is difficult. Any problem you solved?

I can't find the page. Can you type the link again?

Don't post too often or people will get angry (one or twice a week is fine.) A few repost are ok (3?) but please don't repost too much.</comment>


Algebraic knot theory for kids: equations - <AUTHOR> http://researchblogs.cs.bham.ac.uk/thelablunch/2015/06/inventing-an-algebraic-knot-theory-for-eight-year-olds-v/

<comment><USER2> Google cache: [http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:3RnbUol...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:3RnbUolLRo0J:researchblogs.cs.bham.ac.uk/thelablunch/2015/06/inventing- an-algebraic-knot-theory-for-eight-year-olds-v/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)

</comment><comment><USER3> I long for the days when I sat in my studio apartment writing Perl scripts to categorize proteins based on knotting structure. Good times...

<comment><USER4> So you were writing protein-like programs to categorize proteins? :P</comment></comment>


Trump Campaign Urges Supporters to Back TikTok Ban in Online Ads - <AUTHOR> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-07-18/trump-campaign-urges-supporters-to-back-tiktok-ban-in-online-ads <comment><AUTHOR> For those who have trouble with the link:

[http://archive.is/UqhMf](http://archive.is/UqhMf)</comment>


Book lovers fear dim future for notes in the margins - <AUTHOR> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/21/books/21margin.html?_r=1&hpw

<comment><AUTHOR> _"... Books with markings are increasingly seen these days as more valuable, not just for a celebrity connection but also for what they reveal about the community of people associated with a work ..."_

Forget book reviews, 100 word summaries, somewhere in _"marginalia"_ there is a market to be tapped. src: <http://twitter.com/#!/navarrotells/status/39531078679142400>

</comment><comment><USER2> Notes in margins have also caused century long headaches; wouldn't it have been better if Fermat had a blog instead?</comment>


"Remember when we would mock Soviet-style 'show me your papers' societies?" - B-Con

http://www.economist.com/debate/days/view/822 <comment> B-Con This is the last of a 3 part debate between Bruce Schneier and Kip Hawley on the effectiveness of post-9/11 airport security. Links to the previous two parts are on the page and well worth reading as well.

By part 3, it's clear that Hawley doesn't have much ammunition to defend his viewpoint other than anecdotes and the "trust us to keep you safe" mantra. And he used to run the TSA.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Not to be picky, but would you mind deleting this post and re-submitting with the URL in the "URL" box instead of the "text" box? thanks.</comment>


Moped Electric Conversion, Puch Maxi "Electropuch" - <AUTHOR> http://blakesmith.me/2019/06/06/moped-electric-conversion-puch-maxi-electropuch-part-1-planning.html <comment><AUTHOR> Relatedly: anyone in the Bay Area know a mechanic who could perform an electric conversion on a similar Puch Maxi?</comment>


Ask HN: What eastern or midwest companies would you add to the Breakout List? - <AUTHOR> Breakout List has a disproportionately low amount of companies from the East Coast or Midwest (or other regions) compared to the West Coast. What companies from other regions would you add to the list? <comment><USER2> what is Breakout List?

<comment><AUTHOR> It's a website listing some of the fastest growing startups, and their net/projected growth.

There's lots of HN threads that give updates on it: [https://hn.algolia.com/?query=breakout%20list&sort=byPopular...](https://hn.algolia.com/?query=breakout%20list&sort=byPopularity&prefix=false&page=0&dateRange=all&type=story)</comment></comment>


John Goerzen on Why You Should Learn Haskell - <AUTHOR> http://broadcast.oreilly.com/2009/01/why-you-should-learn-haskell.html <comment><USER2> At first I thought Haskell was cool, but then I realized that I only thought that because it was the latest cool thing to do in programming. Then I thought learning it would be a waste of time.

Then I randomly picked up the book "The Haskell School of Expression" by Paul Hudak (one of the designers of Haskell). It is a great introduction to the language. By page 30 it has already introduced the Haskell notions of bindings, functions, let, recursion and complex nested pattern matching in a very practical and understandable way. It also convinced me to continue learning Haskell because it clearly demonstrates some of the features that (to paraphrase the book) "you probably won't see in mainstream languages for ten years."

<comment><USER3> > By page 30 it has already introduced the Haskell notions of bindings, > functions, let, recursion and complex nested pattern matching in a very > practical and understandable way.

Why does it take 30 pages for those things?

<comment><USER4> How about, "Over the first 30 pages, ...". (It covers about as much material as SICP does in same, for example, and the typesetting is comparable.) After that it moves into examples with GL programming, alternating theory and application chapter by chapter.</comment></comment></comment>


Ask YC: What do you use for your business address? - <AUTHOR>

My business partner and I are finally sitting down and getting all of our corporate paperwork in order with the state, and as part of this we need to list the official address of the company.
We're bootstrapping and don't yet have an office, and if possible, want to avoid getting one.  We're both very productive working out of our respective apartments, and can't see a lot of sense in adding another expense on to the pile.
So, what do other HNers do for their business address?
We're going to be based in/around San Jose, if that helps. <comment><USER2> Your lawyer's office address. I have an arrangement with my guy since I am not even in the U.S. anymore. He also comes handy for other things; right now he is in the process of transferring my car title to my sister (I don't need to be there physically.)

You might be able to get a similar service from a certified accountant or a public notary. Ask around.

</comment><comment><USER3> This depends if you're worried about obeying the letter of the law. In most jurisdictions, a corporation is required to have a "records office" where various corporate paperwork can be consulted during normal business hours (rules vary about who is allowed to consult what, but often a member of the general public can walk in and ask to see your articles of incorporation and list of directors).

If you want to be strictly legal, you should pay your lawyer to do this; google reveals lots of lawyers who provide this service for a modest (e.g., $100/year) fee. Some people are less concerned with such details, and just list one of the founders' home addresses as the records office; at which point they're _technically_ breaking the law if they leave home during normal business hours (because at that point the records office isn't open) -- but for a small company, the odds of anyone ever turning up and asking to inspect documents is usually minimal.

Of course, I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice, and jurisdictions vary -- but I think it's safe to say that if you're paying a lawyer to help with incorporating your company, he can help with this.

</comment><comment><USER4> In the US when Camarades Inc. was still alive (Michigan) we used the address of our lawyer as well.

This was handy in several ways, the most important one that he could handle any envelopes from the various government institutions regarding taxes, reporting and so on directly.</comment>


Our Rails site is open for preview registration - <AUTHOR> http://realthematics.com/signup

<comment><AUTHOR> Hello Guys,

News from rails beginners, our rails site finally has a mvp open for preview registration! It's hosted in Amazon AWS (free tier) instead of Heroku (need to pay).

<http://realthematics.com/signup>

It's quite simple in this preview version, please give it a test drive and try to figure out what it could do for you! (a social

bookmark? a news aggregator? etc....)

We consider you the idea leaders and early adopters. Please do drop us an email for anything you want to say!

Cheers!

The Real Team

email@example.com

p.s. please don't laugh at us if you can not help, we just try to follow the book Four Steps to Epiphany :)</comment>


Ask HN: Open source software liability? - <AUTHOR>

If you are running an open source web framework like Django or Pylons and a security vulnerability or bug (in the framework itself) causes sensitive/private data to be leaked (like for example, online banking data), who is liable?<p>My understanding is that big corporations tend to stay away from open source because they cannot pass on the liability to someone like Sun or MS, but I'm having trouble finding any specific information on this subject. <comment><USER2> I've yet to see a single case where a closed source software vendor accepted liability for data loss and / or security related issues.

Do you have a documented case where you can show that a closed source software vendor was forced to cough up at least a sizable part of the damages sued for ?

They all pretty much rule out stuff like that, and it would surprise me if such a case existed.

The situation is actually the reverse, because closed source gets leaked to the 'bad guys' only (by buying it off some employee with access) the chances of trouble there are a lot larger than with open source where there is a level playing field and the bad guys have just as much access as the good guys.

So, no, you can't sue anybody in the open source scene, but you can stay current. And you probably can sue some party in the closed source scene but the bigger question is what you'll do with the outcome of that suit.

Most likely the damages are limited to the price of the product by contract.

</comment><comment><USER3> That is funny! you really think you can pass liability to someone like Sun or MS ? :)

Small suggestion: Re-read your eula/terms etc ..

</comment><comment><USER4> I think most open source licenses specifically disclaim any liability for damages caused by faults in the software.

<comment><USER5> So does pretty much every closed-source license. But the liability always seems to be limited "where permitted by law".

What is this law, and which jurisdictions allow this? I wonder if there is someone here who knows more on the subject.

<comment><USER6> I'd have thought that active damage, including a backdoor for example, would be the sort of thing that makes you liable and can't be disclaimed under the law.</comment></comment></comment>


Studying the demise of historic civilisations - <AUTHOR> http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20190218-are-we-on-the-road-to-civilisation-collapse <comment><USER2> Many of these great "empires" were simply extended looting machines, once they ran out of looting opportunities they collapsed in the same way that a Ponzi collapses when it run out of new "investors". While things were good, it was all golden, glitter and glam, and many tall buildings.

Loot of course takes many forms, gold, silvers, the work of serfs, the work of slaves, monopolies on trade routes, monopolies on trades itself and of course looting of weak environments itself.

The aftermath is what is sustainable, but this difference between the glitter and the sustainable is very boring and what the historians call a dark age or dark period because its not newsworthy even thought it is actually the origin of the next age of expansion.

<comment><USER3> I think this is a fantastic point, but it leads to the next question which is that are the current world powers any different?

<comment><USER4> There's less looting these days and more making stuff.

<comment><USER5> > _more making stuff..._

Well, they must make stuff out of other stuff.

Those raw materials have to be extracted from Mother Earth at some point I'd imagine.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Does it seem to anyone else that they have conflated "civilization" and "political entity" for lack of a better term?

Serious question. It just seems that a lot of entries on this list are actually part of the same civilization. In the same way that I would consider the Spanish Empire, the British Empire, and the American Empire to be really all a part of the same Western Civilization. But maybe my thinking is totally wrong and that's not what "civilization" means?

<comment><USER6> >>> Does it seem to anyone else that they have conflated "civilization" and "political entity" for lack of a better term?

They even got that wrong. The Roman Republic, the Roman Empire and the Byzantine Empire are the same political entity.

Arguably the Ottoman Empire was as well, since the Ottomans basically left the Byzantine bureaucracy intact. The Sultan even used the title Caesar and declared himself protector of the Eastern church.

<comment><USER7> They share their origin in the same political entity, but have clearly different cultures and developed in different directions. The collapse of the Western Roman Empire had a massive impact on Western Europe.

There's also the medieval Holy Roman Empire which was officially a continuation of the Western Roman Empire, and at odds with the Byzantine Empire because they considered themselves the only legitimate Roman Empire, and these are all related but clearly different cultures.

And then there's the vikings which were clearly a different culture, arguably a different civilisation, but infused themselves in every corner of Europe, from England to Russia to Sicily and Byzantium.

Civilisations do not have clear boundaries, both geographically and temporally, and you certainly can't equate them with empires. I think civilisations rarely truly collapse (except under the impact of invasion or colonialism maybe), but they do change, and sometimes dramatically. The collapse of empires is sometimes dramatic, as in the case of the Western Roman Empire, and sometimes barely noticeable, as in the case of the Holy Roman Empire.

<comment><USER8> This reminds me of a conversation I had yesterday with one of my daughters about species, specifically Homo Sapiens, but generally as well.

She was asking who the first Homo Sapiens was. I suggested that if there was such a person, if an anthropologist had been there they wouldn't have seen anything special happening. The way they would have categorised hominid species would depend on the populations they saw at that time.

It's the same with civilisations. How we categorise them is temporally dependent and is in fact an artefact of language. Reality doesn't care if our linguistic categorizations make sense, or how they are limited.

<comment><USER9> Continuity existing between separate categories doesn't mean categories are arbitrary nor artifacts of language. For example adults and children really are separate categories for many important purposes yet there is never a single day when a child becomes an adult.

<comment><USER10> That's an excellent analogy. How a society differentiates adults and children, is often more a reflection of societal norms than it is an objective biological distinction.

Similarly, analyses like these cannot help but be a reflection of the society that produced them. This article features a callout in the middle with weirdly axis-ed charts about climate change, inequality and environmental degradation, it's difficult not smirk knowing that within the context of our current society, there was no way it could be otherwise. One wonders 50 or 150 years ago what the cultural bugbears were and what the callout in the middle of the page would have featured. Overpopulation? Nuclear war? Out-of-wedlock births?

<comment><USER7> It's a decent analogy, but not a great one. Most people grow up in a fairly similar way. Every civilisation develops differently. Also, it's clear where one person ends and the next person begins. With civilisations, that's not so clear.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Is it true to say that China is the longest surviving civilization? They seem to think that Shang and Zhou are different civilisations? Instead of a continuity as they like to call it in China. There are good reasons why they should be considered continuations because they shared a similiar script for writing.

<comment><USER12> The script has changed considerably over time between different dynasties, and different areas have had mutually unintelligible languages, even if sharing similar script.

For example: Japan shares many characters with Chinese, and Korean and Vietnamese both used to use Chinese characters, but they are all separate languages. Similarly, numerous "dialects" in China are less mutually intelligible than many different Western languages. Compare Portuguese and Spanish to Cantonese, Mandarin, Taiwanese (Hokkien), Fuzhounese, Shanghainese, etc. Not to mention languages like Mongolian (see the Yuan dynasty). And that doesn't even begin to get into even more ethnically diverse regions like Tibet and western China.

Then there's also the "warring states period" when, for over 250 years, no fewer than 14 different independently governed states made up what is today eastern China.

Claims that China has always been one civilization are politically expedient versions of history that glaze over an enormous quantity of inconvenient facts.

Did you know that after the Ottoman Empire conquered Constantinople, Sultan Mehmed viewed himself as the successor of the Roman Empire and declared himself "Caesar of Rome"?

China today is as much a continuation of those previous states as Turkey is of the Roman Empire.

<comment><USER13> honestly this is just not?true.

the Chinese script have evolved, but one can still look at inscriptions from thousands of years ago and understand it.

it might be hard for people to understand different dialects in China but they all use the same writing system, standardized in the Qin dynasty.

Same with the borrowed Chinese characters in Japanese and Korean. A native Chinese speaker would have little problem reading those, although the pronounciations might be a little different

<comment><USER14> Are you seriously claiming that you can understand seal script inscriptions?

Are you Indiana Jones?

<comment><USER15> Yes for me. Of course I don't know every single character by heart but with a little bit practice and the help of a dictionary you can read a lot. You can even download some seal script fonts and make all the Chinese websites shown in seal script.

<comment><USER15> Some additional thoughts.

With some training, people can read seal script inscriptions because the structure is already fairly close to regular script which is what people use today.

The radicals are written in slightly different styles from today. It actually makes sense. Seal script is a very artistic form of calligraphy, so people use it for their seals hence the name.

An example of the "drum" character: [http://www.guoxuedashi.com/zixing/yanbian/11208mb/](http://www.guoxuedashi.com/zixing/yanbian/11208mb/) The horizontal arrow is the time line, starting from oracle bone script. The 4th one of the first row is seal script and the last regular script.

The idea depicted here is hitting a decorated drum on a rack with a drum stick holding in the hand.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> The full article is here: [http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20190218-are-we-on- the-road-...](http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20190218-are-we-on-the-road-to- civilisation-collapse)

'Interestingly' the first two listed factors are ecology related, and the biggest thread to the European civilization is not explicitly stated.

<comment><USER17> Ok, we've changed the URL to that from [http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20190218-the-lifespans-of- an...](http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20190218-the-lifespans-of-ancient- civilisations-compared). Thanks!

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> Absolutely fantastic book:- Why Nations Fail: The Origins of Power, Prosperity, and Poverty

[https://www.amazon.com/Why-Nations-Fail-Origins- Prosperity/d...](https://www.amazon.com/Why-Nations-Fail-Origins- Prosperity/dp/0307719227)

</comment><comment><USER19> I'm quite disappointed that the aboriginal cultures of Australia are not factored into this. Bias against the idea that they might have been a civilisation?

Oldest oral traditions of any human culture. Oldest, still being worked, mining operation of any human culture. A hippocratic oath encoded in their culture while we, white Europeans, bled people to their deaths.

I think this report, while interesting - is not quite as complete a view of human civilisation as it could be. Australian aborigines throw out the whole idea - until white guys came along and genocided them, they were the oldest, longest-running civilisation of humankind, ever.

<comment><USER20> Perhaps I'm being too literal and etymological, but to me "civilisation" means towns and cities.

Towns and cities lead to economic specialisation, a legal system, civil service, taxation, and so on. Nomads and people living in villages may have a complex culture but it's rather different from city life, even a low-tech city life like in ancient Egypt, for example.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> Ottoman empire lasted 624 years and it's not mentioned in this article. They mention 'Western Turk (70)' and I've no idea what that means.

<comment><USER22> Politically my guess is modern Turkey but 'Western turk' is legit term to distinguish, culturally, from Eastern turks such as Siberians, Kazahks, etc whom the Turkish language, spoken in Turkey, descends from

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> > While there is no single accepted theory for why collapses

This kind of reasoning rests on the success of disciplines like physics and chemistry where scientists have found general laws upon which they can build solid models of reality (within some extreme limits). History doesn't lend itself well to this kind of thinking IMO, and only serves to cloak the innermost nature of history: it's uniqueness. Instead we should realize the unique characteristics of our culture vs all preceding (and similarities too, by all means). It is a much more difficult exercise, but also much more rewarding since it _can_ lead to a much better understanding of our predicament.

One thing that comes to mind is our complete interconnection and dependency on a few points of failure like no previous civilization. Our demise might not take several decades like the Roman empire, it might be over in a few days if we don't change course(s) and build better resiliency.

</comment><comment><USER24> My take on this is that once an economic model begins to fail, the society that is based on it will inevitably also fail. Eventually wars breakout (usually resource wars), and a new dominant player emerges and their economic model gets implemented until it fails. Usually what causes the failure is that the economic model has reached it's growth or sustainability limit.

I actually think company life cycles are very analogous and can teach us much about societies and their growth and decline but on a faster timeline. Companies operate very much like mini-societies with their own culture, beliefs and ingrained practices. They have business models which are constantly evolving. Most if not all of them grow and eventually decline if they fail to adapt.

I'm of the opinion we are experiencing this now with whatever economic model we have in developed nations. It's a never ending cycle, at least until the human species evolves or is eradicated.

</comment><comment><USER25> Ignoring the difficult task of actually deciding when a civilization starts and stops, is there some theory that suggests that duration is the right measure? Don't we need a reasonable model of how civilizations work.

It would be interesting to incorporate and merge the data from Joseph Tainter's _Collapse of Complex Societies_ with the data presented here.

</comment><comment><USER26> These are awfully contested dates. Hun: 100? Vedic: 1000? Etc. These statistics obscure more than they explain, I think.

<comment><USER27> I can speak to the Vedic dates. Those are contested but only due to their novelty, meaning they are MUCH older than what western media gives them credit for. And the Vedic civilization exists to this day in India as Sanatana Dharma followers or as the ancient Greeks & the modern Western world calls it - Hindus.

<comment><USER28> Though most varieties of modern 'Hinduism'/Sanatana Dharma are rather different from 'Vedism'.

<comment><USER27> That's quite unreasonable to say the least. In any case, I am not familiar with the term "Vedism". Vedas are not the only concept but a very critical pillar of Sanatana Dharma.

<comment><USER28> Why do you think it's unreasonable?

In general we don't expect religious systems to be static.

Certainly -- although Vedic deities are not entirely absent from modern Hinduism/Sanatana Dharma -- the prominence of different deities is very different. The Rgveda focusses largely on Agni and Indra, and yajna rituals (as opposed to modern puja-type worship) have a central importance. Shiva, assuming he can be identified as Rudra, is not invoked, but rather (being feared) appeased. And so on and so forth. So while modern Hinduism is not unrelated to the practices/beliefs of the Vedas (which I'm referring to vaguely as 'vedism'), it largely pays only lip-service to the Vedas. People might read the Gita, Ramayan, Mahabharata, but rarely the Vedas, which really only make an appearance in special ritualised situations (e.g. marriages involve some Vedic hymns).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> The Kingdom of Israel and Judah? While Wikipedia is not a credible source, it's a good summary [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Israel_(united_mona...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Israel_\(united_monarchy\))

> In contemporary scholarship the united monarchy is generally held to be a > literary construction and not a historical reality, pointing to the lack of > archaeological evidence.

See The Bible Unearthed for a more authentic source. I am slightly biased because I have been to Tel Hazor after and because of reading that book. (No matter who ruled at the time but a 25 x 21 m citadel with two-meter thick walls built three thousand years ago is just jaw dropping.)

Also, Vedic Civilisation [1000]? What evidence do we have that calls for this period to be called a single civilisation...?

</comment><comment><USER30> You know I lately think that, ok, we're mostly past the age of empires physically conquering one another, we're in the age of economic ebbs and flows of established countries.

And in this kind of age, the thing that sinks a country is not aggression by others, but indifference and lethargy as a country "gets old".

"Getting old" means the political desired and inertia of a rich, settled population get to dominate the goals and priorities of a nation, and it loses its drive to be scrappy, make sacrifices, and do the innovative things when one does when young and poor. You have generations who want to extract the gains put in by past generations. Or it costs too much to change people's behavior.

That's what I think is happening to western Europe and the US. Too many rich, old, soft people who now have settled and moneyed lives, and don't want to make the same sacrifices that the generation previously were forced to, by unfortunate circumstance. Too happy with their 2nd homes and retirement plans.

Unless you have a really conscious and socially adept mechanism to force a people to renew themselves, this sets in. Sometimes, as sad as it is to imagine, I think you need a good war to refresh a country...

<comment><USER31> Get rid of multi generational transfers of wealth. Make each generation start from scratch. I know it's easier said than done as not all assets are fungible or distributable (social networks, geography etc) but it would make a difference. I read recently that the same families that controlled most the wealth in Florence in the 1600 still control most the wealth now, that's probably not good for scrappy innovation.

<comment><USER32> What is the point of accumulating wealth over this short life if I can't leave anything to my children?

<comment><USER33> What is the point of accumulating wealth over this short life?

<comment><USER34> For one, society benefits from it.

You generally get wealthy by providing goods and services to others. The more you satisfy people's wants and needs, the wealthier you get. The wealth means that these people now owe you.

If you accumulate wealth instead of consuming it, you never take them up on it. You are basically acting altruistically - instead you use their IOUs to provide even more goods and services for others (not yourself) by managing your wealth instead of consuming!

I think it is actually an amazing feature of our civilisation. Wealthy people generally don't use their wealth to build massive monuments to themselves - they tend to invest it into economically productive enterprises that make society wealthier overall.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> _we have the unique advantage of being able to learn from the wreckages of societies past_

Why do we have that unique advantage? Plenty of civilisations had historians.

<comment><USER36> the number of recent discoveries in just the last 100 years is astonishing. the Indus valley civilization was not even discovered until 1929. We have a fuller picture of human history than ever before.

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> I just started researching this subject recently. Graham Hancock is a very interesting speaker regarding the subject. I highly recommend that anyone interested in this subject to have a listen.

Seems we are on a cycle of occasional doom and gloom, caused by nature. Think ice age cycles.

</comment><comment><USER38> Sir John Glubb analyzed this in The Fate of Empires:

[http://people.uncw.edu/kozloffm/glubb.pdf](http://people.uncw.edu/kozloffm/glubb.pdf)

</comment><comment><USER39> This clearly has outliers from fantastically ancient civilizations. Give it a qqnorm and you would see.

The median age is much more interesting than the mean, and more relevant for today.

</comment><comment><USER40> The US lasted 243 years. Is it the oldest modern nation? I wonder, how will the modern nations different from the ancient ones?

<comment><USER41> it is not, case in point: Great Britain

<comment><USER42> I think judging by the oldest extant constitution (or other equivalent legal document), the US is the oldest.

<comment><USER43> Depends on your definitions. Great Britain has a "constitution" which is not a single, written document. The Magna Carta is part of it, and dated from 1215.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER44> It looks like the U.S. has another 93 years to look forward to!

<comment><USER45> Thats assuming all civilizations don't collapse before then due to environmental destruction.

</comment></comment><comment><USER46> Now that the citizens have discovered they can vote themselves money out of the treasury, and politicians vie to outdo each other in promising free stuff, we'll see how long the US lasts.

</comment><comment><USER47> Alternative title: The average length of time an ancient civilization had to last in order to be noticed by us is 336 years.

</comment><comment><USER48> Let me throw a wrench into things with a provocative statement (which I have no intention of citing support for):

The affluence of Western Europe and the US was not built on hard work and ingenuity so much as the exploitation of cheap labor and the sudden access to deep veins of basic resources or economic/industrial efficiencies which were either already extant but inaccessible without a critical mass of capital, or else were inevitable on an imminent timescale given past development.

Have at it.

<comment><USER49> I don't think a King George Washington would preside over a young America as affluent as President George Washington did. Tyranny has a way of sequestering innovative spirit.

<comment><USER50> Washington was a slave owner. Tyranny, but only for some people.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER51> I'm surprised the article doesn't mention destructive ideologies. Early Christianity contributed to the demise of Roman empire. Marxism and fascism destroyed quite a few nations.

</comment><comment><USER52> Typical western garbage. Applying vague nation state ideas to civilization. Hindus for example have seen thousands of years as their own unbroken history. Many mantras that I chant today are at least 1500 year old.

<comment><USER53> You understand that an "average" means that many skew higher, often much higher, right?

If anything, this shows most ancient civilizations were measured in decades, not centuries. But some did go thousands.

<comment><USER52> Yes but they have given specific numbers like Harappan -> 800.</comment></comment></comment>


To Code With Or Without Music That Is The Question - <AUTHOR> http://www.skorks.com/2009/10/to-code-with-or-without-music-that-is-the-question/ <comment><USER2> For me it depends on the type of music. Stuff that works: instrumental trance, chants (like Benedictine Monks), good guitar rock (Free Bird, Stairway to Heaven, Little Wing).

Stuff that doesn't work: classical, trance with vocals, and the rest of the crap that gets put out today.</comment>


Type-safe Transducers in Clojure, Scala, and Haskell - <AUTHOR> http://blog.podsnap.com/ducers2.html <comment><USER2> This line made me laugh out loud: "... whenever something is even slightly ugly in Scala, you introduce an implicit to make it confusing instead."

<comment><USER3> Odersky wrote a simple implementation, and it looks a lot nicer. It also doesn't use any casts or implicit conversaions: [https://gist.github.com/odersky/6b7c0eb4731058803dfd](https://gist.github.com/odersky/6b7c0eb4731058803dfd)

<comment><USER4> True. In retrospect, trying to make the Scala transducer type look like Haskell and then hacking into working order was didn't do justice to either language. As I sort of note in the text, the attempt to do it this way was at least partially meant to be "amusing."

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> This is interesting, but it's still missing some very important features of transducers. As you alluded, stateful operations [1] won't work at all in your Haskell model. Also, you've missed early termination [2], which Rich's talk [3] covered well.

[1] [https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/b01adb859c66322c5cff...](https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/b01adb859c66322c5cff1ca9dc1ad98585f2cdc1/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L2719-L2744)

[2] [https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/b01adb859c66322c5cff...](https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/b01adb859c66322c5cff1ca9dc1ad98585f2cdc1/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L2694-L2698)

[3] [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mTbuzafcII](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mTbuzafcII)

<comment><USER6> >As you alluded, stateful operations [1] won't work at all in your Haskell model.

Couldn't you just parametrize over IO/ST/etc.? E.g. something like

        IO r -> a -> IO r

I don't have a great mental model of transducers yet, so I'm not confident about that.

<comment><USER7> You can do that, but it's more elegant if you define a functional stateful transducer analogous to scanl for lists.

<comment><USER8> That's like saying "your program is more elegant if it has no monads". It's an incorrect statement. The monadic version is perfectly elegant. Even better: it's the right one.

<comment><USER7> By the same logic scanl should just have the type:

        (b -> IO a) -> [b] -> IO [a]

instead of

        (a -> b -> a) -> a -> [b] -> [a]

Just putting the whole thing in the IO/ST monad isn't the right solution when you need a very specific form of local state.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


The Lamborghini Aventador: A case study in poor dashboard design - <AUTHOR> http://blog.geckoboard.com/the-lamborghini-aventador-a-case-study-in-poo

<comment><USER2> The author fails to realize that except for a few thrilling seconds a year (if that) the typical Lambo owner drives no faster than any other car. "Supercars" are actually toys. Nobody really cares about the dashboard on those things. The owners care about the latent power in the engine and, as Top Gear once mentioned about the Murcielago, "[whether or not] the car pushes all your 'caveman' buttons" . They deliberately overlook UX considerations, comfort, ergonomics, mileage, maintenance schedule and trunk space. If you're driving a Lamborghini, you're not doing it for practical reasons.

<comment><USER3> Also the author leaves out the golden rule of UX and that is user demographics. Who is using it and what attracts them. What if the majority of your customers though jet fighter cockpits where cool, what if it made them feel cooler to have a complex machine that appears to require expertise. What is the personality type that buy the product, do they buy it because they feel it will make them cooler. Put a single little cute character on the dash display with a single push button and see what happens to their sales. They are targeting a demographic that likes buttons and gadgets, they want it to look complex as it is about an experience and the drivers of those cars want to feel like they are in a complex highly advanced machine. Some of the Rube goldberg'ing is intentional to create the allure that their demographic is after.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Also worth noting that a comparison to an M5's dashboard isn't particularly relevant. When driving exotic cars, the RPMs are significantly more important to the driving experience and performance than the actual speed. That's why the tachometer is so massive and speed is relegated to a simple small number

<comment><USER2> Indeed, one would expect to drive to work in an M5 or pick-up groceries without making a scene. The M5 is a very expensive "everyday" car albeit with 7 speeds. People purchase it because they're optimizing for a "total experience" and will seriously think twice if the dashboard (or any other component) makes them say "WTF!".

On the other hand, Lamborghini knows it isn't going to lose significant sales because Dolce and Gabana (or whoever) did the UX for the dashboard!

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> What really surprises me is how UGLY that dashboard is. (I'm a professional designer, so I'm licensed to say that.)

The exterior is sleek and beautiful, so it's like there has been no common goal or oversight when designing the car as a whole.</comment>


Why Do Monads Matter? - <AUTHOR> http://cdsmith.wordpress.com/2012/04/18/why-do-monads-matter/

<comment><USER2> An introduction paragraph actually answering the question would be good.</comment>


CRU Admits to Dumping Raw Climate Data - <AUTHOR> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article6936328.ece

<comment><USER2> So to put it another way, these 'scientists' purposely made their data unverifiable and thus non-scientific. IMO any adjusted or modified data is unscientific without the original data set and how and why the data was modified the way it was.

If you adjust data to normalise it due to the differing global climatic effects of El Nino or La Nina then that's perfectly reasonable, if someone can corroborate what you did and if you did it right. However with no original data set, and apparently no mention of how or why the data was modified the way it was leaves it completely unverifiable and might as well be entirely fabricated.

<comment><USER3> No, no. I agree with you that we need to hold them over the fire on this. But _"purposely"_ is going too far.

The best explanation, until proven otherwise, is that somebody goofed.

<comment><USER4> Yeah, "goofed" by sending emails that talk about a plan to delete data rather than turn it over. ;)

<comment><USER5> Were there emails that actually talked about deleting _data_? I've seen the emails that talked about deleting emails, but not raw data.

<comment><USER6> 1107454306.txt

Professor Jones: _Just sent loads of station data to Scott. Make sure he documents everything better this time ! And don't leave stuff lying around on ftp sites - you never know who is trawling them. The two MMs [Patrick notes: he is referring to McIntyre and McKitrick] have been after the CRU station data for years. If they ever hear there is a Freedom of Information Act now in the UK, I think I'll delete the file rather than send to anyone._

<comment><USER7> Why did they not want to give away the data?

<comment><USER8> Well, if a group has your original source data, they can try to reproduce your results and/or challenge your process. I gather that the results are not likely to stand up to scrutiny.

<comment><USER7> That seems kind of weird - if they don't show the data, they might as well not bother with collecting data at all. They could just make it all up.

Why then, would they bother to mail it around, as they did in the quoted email?

I suspect there are some other reasons.

<comment><USER4> It would be harder for the scientists to justify making it up to themselves. I assume none of them set out to do bad science when they started investigating climate.

<comment><USER7> Sorry I don't think this makes sense. Personally I'll just wait to see how the story unfolds.

This makes me glad again that there is some kind of legal system in most civilized countries. So many people seem to be ready to form a lynch mob at short notice.

<comment><USER9> Judging from the sheer volume of replies you've made to every HN thread on the subject, one has to wonder if you have a dog in the fight.

<comment><USER7> Just a case of <http://xkcd.com/386/> , Mr Holmes

I don't know any of the people involved, but I really despise lynch mobs. Still, I know I shouldn't bother with this.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> "Their findings are one of the main pieces of evidence used by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, which says global warming is a threat to humanity."

So basically there is no evidence the earth is warming? Because evidence based on unreleased data is worthless.

If I can't reproduce your work, you are a crackpot (isn't that the definition of junk science?) I can't reproduce their work, so they are crackpots. (Or deliberate frauds.)

Did they even record their methodology on how they adjusted the numbers? Maybe we can undo that methodology?

If they didn't record even that, then they are incompetent. And I see no reason to pay attention to incompetents.

What if someone made a simple arithmetic error? Without the raw data, and the methodology of adjustment how could we ever know?

Their conclusions are worthless, and unless there are others (are there?), then there is no evidence the earth is warming.

<comment><USER11> "So basically there is no evidence the earth is warming? Because evidence based on unreleased data is worthless."

Unfortunately this is true. As someone who has never doubted that global warming was man made (yes, those last leaked emails were private conversations and held no smoking gun whatsoever. People were reading into one term used ten years ago to sex up a graph), this is embarrassing. This, more than any other thing has made me reconsider my views.

The problem is that glaciers and polar ice are melting at unprecedented rates, this is unarguable. The earth is getting warming in those areas and it is effecting the sea levels and biodiversity of the planet. How do we tell if it's man made? What can we do to stop it? Remember this doesn't prove that global warming isn't real.

<comment><USER12> No, it's not even remotely close to true.

What happened here? They threw away their copy of the _raw_ data. That data still exists (they gathered it from public repositories), and the methods of the paper describe what they did. You could reconstruct the results.

Essentially, the "skeptics" are getting worked up over what amounts to throwing away the lab notebooks for a paper published two decades ago. Even if you assume malfeasance on the part of these authors (an assumption that does not appear to be justified), you'd have to disregard the results of thousands of other papers to leap to the (wild) conclusion that "there is no evidence the earth is warming."

<comment><USER13> But between the raw data and the set of data is a correction. Without being able to show what that correction is, all the models based off the second set of values is not valid science.

So you have to go back and recollect the info from all these sources (not an insignificant undertaking, though mostly do-able), actually give a reason for the "corrections", and then create models that fit that data, and then issue new predictions.

Without starting over from raw data and following all the way to the conclusions reached about man made global warming _there is no scientific proof that man causes global warming_. None of it is valid until you can show how that "correction" was made. And the loss of this data means they will never 100% be able to show that.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> See also: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=843517>

Which is a strange read. "Looks like the National Review was way out front on this one," is not something I expected to say to myself today.

<comment><USER14> This is turning into the biggest science story of the year, and for weeks most of the MSM refused to cover it.

I'm not trying to allege bias, just making the observation that stories that don't fit into pre-existing media narratives take a lot of push to get out there. Usually it's the fringe media that keeps kicking and kicking until somebody finally picks it up. If I remember correctly, the National Enquirer was running stories of John Edwards' love child for months before anybody else would pick it up. (And love or hate Edwards, it was a real story that deserved national attention)

I wonder if blogging has changed any of this? Sure would be great to read a study on how this type of anti-narrative story breaks today versus 20 years ago.

<comment><USER15> There are several reasons why the media is reluctant to cover it.

1) The emails were acquired through an illegal hack, which makes them a highly tainted source for journalists who aren't pushing an agenda. Naturally journalists who are pushing the opposite agenda will ignore it, as those who who are skeptics will readily jump on them.

2) This leak was initially trumpeted as a the end of AGW theory, and has since turned out to be nothing more than scientists being douchey and unprofessional wrt their critics. Smoke, but no fire. There's an important lesson in marketing here: Make sure you set appropriate consumer expectations.

3) (US only) It's technically foreign news, and the American media generally doesn't do foreign news unless it pertains to our various wars or some 3rd world dictator says something bad about America.

Long story short, this would be covered in the MSM if: 1) The emails were acquired through a whistleblower with legal protection 2) it wasn't over-sold in the blogosphere the moment it broke 3) US Media actually gave a crap about what happens outside of America's borders that doesn't involve a military escapade.

<comment><AUTHOR> _The emails were acquired through an illegal hack..._

Yes, a crime was committed, but you can't put the genie back in the bottle. There's precedent, too. From Wikipedia: _The Pentagon Papers... were a top- secret United States Department of Defense history of the United States' involvement in Vietnam... [They] first surfaced on the front page of the New York Times in 1971._

...

 _This leak was initially trumpeted as the end of AGW theory, and has since turned out to be scientists being douchey and unprofessional wrt their critics..._

But the facts remain: The data are gone. The wingnuts knew it. The media didn't report on it, in large part because the only people talking about it were wingnuts. Doesn't that make you feel a little uneasy?

<comment><USER16> I agree - even if the emails were illegally obtained, one need only look back at all those national security leaks over the past few years to see the glaring double standard.

That being said, I think there's a questionable assumption being made that these in fact are hacked illegally obtained emails. From CBS: [http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/11/24/taking_liberties/ent...](http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/11/24/taking_liberties/entry5761180.shtml) \- "It's not clear how the files were leaked. One theory says that a malicious hacker slipped into East Anglia's network and snatched thousands of documents. Another says that the files had already been assembled in response to a Freedom of Information request and, immediately after it was denied, a whistleblower decided to disclose them. (Lending credence to that theory is the fact that no personal e-mail messages unrelated to climate change appear to have been leaked.)"

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> I guess that's one way to deal with outliers.

</comment><comment><USER18> finally, a reasonable discussion of this issue. For over two years I've heard rumblings from my sience-y friends that GW was being overhyped. I don't know if anyone had any specific data, but there is some sort of pattern-recognition thing where you just smell that something is fishy.

None of this means that human-caused GW isn't a fact -- what it means is that proving it and quantifying it are turning out to be very difficult. What the email scam shows is that people on the 'right' side of the debate (ie proponents of human-caused change) at some point went over a bit to the dark side, and decided that "failure is not an option" -- ends justify means, etc.

This saddens me because I don't want 'my' side (liberal, rational, forward- thinking) to be guilty of the same anti-science bullshit that GWB and crew were. If science becomes completely politicized, it will cease to be science. Where will be then?

</comment><comment><USER8> It would actually be very interesting to get a graph of all the papers that are based on the altered data. I get the feeling it would be a significant percentage, and not having the raw data would make things painful.

humm..... citeseer with evidence / result tracking....

</comment><comment><USER19> I think there's a forum somewhere on theglaciersarenotmelting.com that needs these sort of posts a lot more than this forum does.

<comment><USER3> I like reading what the HN crowd thinks about this. And I like the articles posted so far on it...but yeah, you're probably right.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> So all the weather stations in the world sent their data to CRU, which then deleted it. Because the data dates 100s of years back, it was not in digital form, so they never copied it. All the little field researchers just trusted the big momma CRU to keep their data for them, and now it is all lost. Climate science is dead, anti-warming campaigners have won.

Boo-Hoo!

</comment><comment><USER20> This article is mere bullshit. CRU never dumped their own data. They just dumped their own copy of the data they got from other sources, because anyway they could not give those around. The original are safe where they belong. Also, this is hardly news related to the hack considered that this information was put online on August 11 2009.

See [http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2009/11/the- cr...](http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2009/11/the-cru-hack- context/comment-page-14/#comment-144845)</comment>


YouTube Blocks Blender Videos Worldwide - <AUTHOR> https://www.blender.org/media-exposure/youtube-blocks-blender-videos-worldwide/ <comment><AUTHOR> So, is google going to start dropping some pages from searches if they don't carry advertising? And are they already?

<comment><USER2> Great question. If they haven't already been doing it, why not? after all, serving ads is their core business.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> It stands to reason that if YouTube is now forcing channels to advertise, those channels would no longer have the option to 'turn off' advertising.

The fact that YouTube doesn't have an answer to Blender's ticket tells you all you need to know: This is /another/ Google snafu.

<comment><USER4> Google's monthly Storm Of The Century, right on schedule.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> Can vimeo provide what they need?

<comment> Digital-Citizen The real lesson here isn't forum shopping -- moving one's digital work to another singular place is repeating the error of the past: any singular forum invites censorship or an outcome that is indistinguishable from censorship.

The answer is to distribute one's digital work widely across multiple means including those that don't need JS. Don't push people to run needless JS via PeerTube (Blender's PeerTube page is useless with JS turned off which is actually a step down from what YouTube allowed for some videos).

Instead host copies of the work in many other places such as places that don't require JS like archive.org (no JS needed, easy downloading and embedding anywhere). And encourage people to distribute copies in ad-hoc informal networks without tracking or JS.</comment></comment>


Show HN: Our new staff management software - <AUTHOR> http://heyjimmy.net

<comment><AUTHOR> The software is called Team Sheet and it provides a cloud-based timekeeping monitoring service through Android tablet and iPad apps.

It's designed as a replacement for sign-in sheets/logbooks. The tablet apps provide a quick interface that allows staff to clock in using ID numbers and PIN's set by their manager then the app will snap their photo and the employee can go to work.

It's much more efficient than sign-in sheets and leaves no margin for error in tracking worked hours.

It's the main product on our website <http://heyjimmy.net> and it comes with a 7 day free trial period so you can have a look at it if you'd like.

We're adopting the traditional lean approach to this launch, constantly working to improve the product and would really appreciate any feedback from HN.

</comment><comment><USER2> Replying to steal Karma</comment>


Show HN: Community Casts - <AUTHOR> http://communitycasts.co/

<comment><USER2> Great idea, and great model of using UGC for the site.

<comment><AUTHOR> I am glad you like it, mate!</comment></comment>


An ad removal pass for the web (2015) - <AUTHOR> https://www.mattcutts.com/blog/google-contributor/ <comment><USER2> I don't really care about ads, I care about the tracking that comes with ads. This only makes that much worse because it only works while logged in.

I'll accept reasonable ads hosted by the site I'm visiting but ad networks that want to follow me around the web get blocked.

</comment><comment><USER3> Google Contributor as described in that article no longer exists. It now only works on "participating sites", rather than all sites using AdSense.

I'd guess it has something to do with website operators putting more ads on their websites to earn more from Contributor.

</comment><comment><USER4> This is from 2015.

</comment><comment><USER5> Does this stop the invasive tracking? If not then no thanks (actually even then no thanks).

</comment><comment><USER6> TL;DR Version; "Give google money to buy adspace on the website you just visited so nobody else gets to show an ad"

I would rather prefer if I could allocate some part of a monthly subscription directly to a specific website and distribute the rest as it works now. Also, probably not from Google.</comment>


Filters vs failure: Instagram - <AUTHOR> http://www.theverge.com/2012/4/26/2975768/filters-vs-failure-instagram-polaroid

<comment><USER2> They just had it the easy way! that's what it is :)</comment>


Google search results have more human help than you think, report finds - <AUTHOR> https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/11/google-search-results-have-more-human-help-than-you-think-report-finds/ <comment><USER2> I wonder if this is why the quality of Google search results has fallen so far? I've been blaming it on AI and personalization, but perhaps I was being too naive.

</comment><comment><USER3> Clearly not objective algorithmic results as once claimed to Congress.</comment>


Key Silk Road employee breaks silence.  - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/p/12a412880d88

<comment><USER2> Has Ulbricht confessed to being DPR during the time of these events? The article lists Ulbricht's name throughout, though also admits that Green did not know the identity of DPR, therefore, the circle is not closed here, and Ulbricht may not be the guilty party.</comment>


Proving the Turing Completeness of Fonts - <AUTHOR> https://litherum.blogspot.com/2019/03/addition-font.html <comment><USER2> >But even in HarfBuzz and CoreText, there are hard limits on the recursion depth. HarfBuzz sets its limit to 6. Therefore, the above example will only work on strings of length 7 or fewer. HarfBuzz is open source, though, so I simply used a custom build of HarfBuzz which bumps up this limit to 4 billion. This let me recurse to my heart's content. A limit of 6 is probably a good thing; _I don't think users generally expect their text engines to be running arbitrary computation during layout._

Truly, Zalgo waits just beyond the wall.

<comment><USER3> What we need is a Regex parser written in this language, and I can finally start on my HTML renderer font.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Fonts aren't really something I've dived into.

Could someone explain at what level this is happening. What classes of software/libraries are affected?

<comment><USER5> GSUB handling is done by a library called a text shaper. Examples of libraries that do shaping include the cross-platform HarfBuzz, Windows DirectWrite, and macOS Core Graphics/Core Text.

<comment><USER4> Thanks

So from what I understand these would be called from the UI libraries eg GTK in Linux land. I would assume window managers also, to deal with title bars.

I would further take from this that we shouldn't expect full Unicode support in virtual terminals (not emulators) in the future.....

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Can you use this to bypass Spectre mitigations in Javascript? You would need to measure time, somehow.

<comment><USER7> It's not arbitrary code execution, just a toy observation about the specification. Additionally, 1) as noted, none of the font rendering libraries used were capable of recursion without the author's modifications, 2) in a web context, Javascript is unable to access information about actual glyphs rendered or other "font-internal" calculations.

If anything, exposing glyph data to the web API would be a bigger problem for fingerprinting, and probably expose some sort of user browsing history snooping flaw...

<comment><USER8> > Javascript is unable to access information about actual glyphs rendered or > other "font-internal" calculations.

Just render the text to a canvas and read out the pixel data to see the glyphs, a.k.a. canvas fingerprinting. I'm not sure whether getting clever with the font would reveal any information you can't get more easily, though.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I think this is extremely interesting. Not to dismiss the author's work, but merely performing addition is far from Turing complete. Addition is primitive recursive, a much smaller class of functions than say, generally recursive. Although in this case I have no reason to doubt that GSUB isn't Turing complete, because recursive symbol substitution is powerful enough.

</comment><comment><USER10> Isn't basically every moderately expressive system Turing complete? Even the Magic the Gathering card game is turing complete

[https://www.toothycat.net/~hologram/Turing/HowItWorks.html](https://www.toothycat.net/~hologram/Turing/HowItWorks.html)

<comment><USER11> That doesn't make it any less fun to find out /how/ they are Turing complete!

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Excerpt: "Also, each mapping in the table acts as an "if" statement because it only executes if the pattern is matched."

This can be generalized as: Pattern Matching = if statement.

I don't know nor can I prove that that's true under all circumstances, however...

But, an interesting article.

</comment><comment><USER13> Seems like lambda calculus would have been a more natural thing to implement since it's basically just symbol substitution.

</comment><comment><USER14> Any font is turning complete if you use it in powerpoint</comment>