How did you find your first programming job? - <AUTHOR>

I'm studying computer science and want to better prepare myself.  Just wondering how everyone here managed to find their first real progamming job.  Do I have to have a lot of experience to get a niche over others?  I have just been doing some small projects myself for fun ... nothing serious or professional. <comment><USER2> I had almost received my B.S. Management when I was offered a entry-level job as a Requirements Analyst at an eight-person software company. At this point I had probably written 1000 lines of code in my entire life (JavaScript/PHP, mostly copying tutorials) and had no real intention of becoming a programmer.

After four months, I had become the longest tenured employee (besides the owner, who was non-technical) after everyone else in the company quit. I had no choice but to take the role of Lead Developer on a $170,000 project. Needless to say, I learned to code ... and since then my interest in CS/SWE has snowballed to the point I enrolled in a M.S. Comp Sci program.

</comment><comment><USER3> My first web development job came as random luck. I received a phone call at my high school via the school office. I headed to the office to see what the call about and it was a local ISP begging me to come in and work for a week. All of their techs were sick and they learned of me via one of the techs.

I did tech support with them for a week and ended up taking on a web site project as well. A couple weeks later came another project... and another... and then then two years later we had a good laugh when we realized that they never hired me officially.

My first real programming gig came out of the blue as well. I had just graduated high school in North Carolina and received an e-mail from a startup in California. They had learned about me from my work on Gaim (now Pidgin) and wanted to hire me.

Two weeks later I was driving across the country to start the job. I don't even think there was an interview involved. I almost half expected to get there and find an abandoned building.

That was many years ago. Sadly, I now find myself somewhat underemployed and toying around with a few startup ideas while longing to move back to California.

</comment><comment><USER4> I got my first internship through a standard corporate application with only 4 CS courses under my belt. I tend to interview well, and there was a lot of interest in my resume because I was a returning student. Two of the three people who interviewed me did the same thing, so that wound up being my "in".

I got my first real job through Monster.com, I'm sorry to say. I had just moved to a new town and a company needed some help, so I went ahead and applied. It wasn't a great gig, but I wasn't trying to be selective at the time. I would not recommend using Monster.com and if I could go back in time to slap myself I would. I still get occasional calls from recruiters for a 4-year old resume.

The best advice I can offer you is that, however you brand yourself on your resume, tell the truth in an interview. Don't exaggerate or fabricate, and if you get to the limits of your knowledge don't be afraid to say so. Think of it as an extension of "underpromise and overdeliver". I never put anything on my resume I'm not prepared to talk about for at least half an hour precisely to avoid any hint that I'm making shit up as I go.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks everybody for the great advice. Looks like networking makes things easier. Not my favorite thing to do but I guess I have to suck it up. I am more of a lone wolf ... like to do my own things ... I also like taking part in programming competitions ... wondering if they help in resume ...

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> I don't know if this is common in the rest of the world, but many Universities in the UK offer an industrial placement scheme, whereby each participating student has to get a job (relevant to your degree) for a year of their course. So in the 4 year course, the 3rd year is work experience.

I did that, which was fantastic experience (good coworkers, nice codebase to work with and an interesting industry) and led to me being employed by the same company upon leaving University. While interviewing for my next job, it was often mentioned that I had 18 months more experience than others in my position (recent-ish graduate), and they valued that much more highly than they would one additional year of in-University education.

As for getting a job without a educational backing, it's all about proving yourself. I have a friend who's co-worker had never been formally educated, but was a senior developer at the firm. He had a solid portfolio and ran his own small web development effort on the side. Code things, and show them to prospective employers.

</comment><comment><USER6> Get an internship, make connections with the IT department, with all of your professors and any alumni you meet. I got a job offer from one of my internships and an alumnus but ended up working at the company that did the back office software for my college (a connection through people in that department).

<comment><USER6> One more story: my friend who went to business school (and got a business degree) ended up getting a full time job with the IT department and is still working there today. He started as an entry level programmer and is currently a business analyst.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> I got into eXtreme Programming during college around 1999. I put it on my resume and dropped the name at various applications. I went around looking for Smalltalk jobs and then got recruited by ThoughtWorks in 2000, probably because I had the XP interest.

I recommend identifying what you want to do, find out who's doing it, and then contacting people there directly until they bring you in. Knowing what I know now, my approach of mostly sending out resumes and hoping for the best was not optimal. I still don't know how to "network" but calling companies that are doing cool things, or asking people on irc where they work and whether they like it, things like that, are probably going to be sort of like networking.

</comment><comment><USER8> I found my first job through a job fair - but I had several internships before that. Small projects are great to show that you have interest in programming by default. It will definitely be worth something. But I reckon my internships helped me quite a bit in getting them to talk to me. After that, it's a whole bunch of technical questions, coding, etc.

Networks and job fairs are fairly useful. If you attend conferences or talks, get to know the people there.

</comment><comment><USER9> I was in my first year of college. In brief discussions with one of my professors I mentioned I did PHP amongst other things. A few months later he passed me in the hallway and asked would I meet with him about a project using PHP, MySQL... traditional stack. Basically he saw my work in class plus saw I did work outside of class to know I could handle it.

</comment><comment><USER10> I was in high school, my brother was working at Webs.com (or Freewebs as it was known back then.)

He asked me if I wanted to take over the template building process for them, and I agreed. Started as a contractor and ended up working there full time for almost three years straight out of high school.

</comment><comment><USER11> Complete luck. I managed to get an internship doing programming work with a local design firm simply because I knew iOS development and they wanted someone who did.

If I were you, I'd try contacting companies that are doing things to want to do and sending them your resume. Persistence is key.</comment>


Cellular Activity in Pig Brains Was Restored Four Hours After Death - <AUTHOR> https://www.inverse.com/article/54990-pig-brain-post-death-cellular-activity <comment><USER2> When they get this to the point of restoring consciousness, this will be a pretty fucked up line of experimentation to continue.</comment>


Ask HN: What's your twitter account? - <AUTHOR>

I just got started with Twitter, and I'm having a lot of fun with it. Unfortunately, I haven't found a lot of good birds to follow.
So, since this community is right up my alley, what's your twitter account? I'd like to follow you.
Mine is www.twitter.com/trailbehind <comment><USER2> Hi, Great idea to bring together HN users! You can follow me at twitter.com/hardikt

</comment><comment><USER3> Previous thread: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=480171>

hint: <http://searchyc.com>

</comment><comment><USER2> And yes, in case you did not know, there is a YC bot too.. <https://twitter.com/newsycombinator>

</comment><comment><USER4> <http://twitter.com/NotoriousBRK>

</comment><comment><USER5> <http://twitter.com/lacker>

I try to mostly tweet about computery stuff.

</comment><comment><USER6> <http://twitter.com/madhaxor>

</comment><comment><USER7> @jgrahamc

</comment><comment><USER8> twitter.com/plc

</comment><comment><USER9> www.twitter.com/antipax</comment>


Applications for YC W15 are open - <AUTHOR> http://blog.ycombinator.com/applications-for-yc-w15-are-open

<comment><USER2> Paul Graham used to say it is good to apply early, as the partners would review your application with less hurry.

But I never got a good answer to a doubt: I submitted my application just now, just because. But I am in a particular good period for user grownth (first customer two weeks ago, and now things are happening). I will have considerably more traction in October (including a reliable growth rate, as it would be at least passed 2 months).

The question: if I update my application on October 14 with the updated traction numbers, will it make a difference? Will someone actually see it or my application will already be judged and decided and that's it?

<comment><USER3> Yes - it does make a difference. If you experience growth between now and October 14, you should update the traction numbers on your application.

</comment></comment><comment> mck- > Yes decisions will include the amount we'll invest and the percent of the > company we'd want for it.

Since last batch, wasn't there a "New Deal" that fixed the amount to $120k for 7%? [1]

[1] [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7629630](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7629630)

<comment><USER4> Yes.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> If you're asking yourself whether to apply or not, do it. Going through YC changed my life.

I'm happy to review applications, especially from international founders. Roberto at Glio dot com.

<comment><USER6> That's very generous brother. Good karma for real life.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> No Co-founder? Let's get organized! Post your idea (or interest but lack of idea) and see if someone bites!

[https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/ycw15-seeking-co- fou...](https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/ycw15-seeking-co-founder)

It's like founder-dating with a deadline.

<comment><USER8> For this to be valuable, we need more people. Would you be willing to make a independent post about this?

<comment><USER9> Do you think there would be a penalty for the shotgun wedding?

<comment><USER8> for this YC batch, it's not ideal. but, in the longer run, finding a good co- founder is likely worth it

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Cool that the application explicitly asks for progress updates for those of us that have applied before (8th try is the charm?). Before I was never sure how much my previous applications impacted things so it's nice to be able to make my own case for things.

Really glad for the application overhaul, looking good.

<comment><USER11> That's great that you're still hacking away at it. Same here, I've applied about 4 or 5 times? I lost track. I've changed a lot, so has my project, but things have also stabilized as I learned how to push this forward. At this point, it's almost a ritual just to apply because it helps me think about what I've done and what I need to do next. This year I'm too busy to spend days on the application but hopefully all the prior practice helps. Regardless, it's ready to submit so I'll meet my quota for this year. :-) (As soon as the submit works but maybe it's just me.)

<comment><USER10> Applying to YC has definitely been a great way to asses the current status of Tinj. In the early days, we'd spend over a week working on the YC application which was definitely a sign that we weren't ready. Thanks to all that work though, I've gotten better at communicating who/what/why we are.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Anyone else having trouble submitting the application? I'm not sure if this is some kind of weird test but I doubt it. I can save, just not submit and it does the same thing in other browsers. Acts as if the submit/click handler isn't working.

<comment><USER12> I found a bug I think is related and fixed it, so hopefully this should work now if you try again.

Thanks for letting us know!

<comment><USER11> It's working now so all is clear. :-) No offense but it's always kind of reassuring that even really big smart groups make bugs. Done and done.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> > Are any of the following true? You are the only founder.

If I'm the only founder, is it considered negative?

<comment><USER14> There are ways to having a "Sleeping Partner".. that's why its somewhat negative.. Not very, but just a bit.

<comment><USER15> What does "sleeping partner" mean?

<comment><USER16> Well, I can infer it has two meanings. The intended meaning (I suppose) is "hiding" the existence of another partner. The second meaning...well, I think you can guess that one on your own.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> New app asks for founder's gender. Should have much better data with this class on the number of female founders and percentage of total. Also should have better data on number of technical female founders.

<comment><USER18> The issue is they don't ask for roles explicitly so there would be no way to know the number of technical vs non-technical.

<comment><USER19> Why is that an issue?

<comment><USER17> Many female founders appear to be in non-technical roles. Need more women in STEM fields moving into entrepreneurship roles as the technical lead.

<comment><USER19> A female CEO can hire as many women as she wants? A female founder in any role probably influences hiring tremendously.

<comment><USER20> For what it's worth, I'm fairly confident that it's illegal to discriminate on sex when making hiring decisions.

<comment><USER21> A female involved in hiring might mean the process is less discriminatory. Thus a female influencing hirings wouldn't necessarily be illegal, but potentially more legal.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> Love the new application page. It seems a little weird that the "Are any of the following true?" question wasn't changed to just be checkmarks though. Also seems like "Half or more of your group can't move to the Bay Area." and "One or more founders will keep their current jobs." could be inferred from the new founder bios.

One final nitpick would be to move the timeline at the bottom of [https://apply.ycombinator.com](https://apply.ycombinator.com) to the top.

Otherwise, really cool.

<comment><USER23> _" could be inferred from the new founder bios."_

Could be, but that's a lot more work to do when reading applications. Inferring these facts from a heterogeneous and unstructured data source, like hundreds or thousands of bios, requires a lot of effort that is better spent elsewhere. Setting these up as simple red flags, through a series of boxes to check or not check, solves the problem more efficiently. Right off the bat, you can sort all applications by any of the criteria in these boxes. You can do that before even starting to read them. If you're inferring from bios, on the other hand, you have to read every bio before you can sort.

<comment><USER22> I think we're on the same page. Each founder already has to answer "Will you live in the Bay Area January through March 2015, if we fund you?" and "Will you commit to working exclusively on this project for the next year?" in a drop down in the new founder bio page.

        if numWontLiveInBayArea >= total / 2 then flag

and

        if numNonExclusive > 0 then flag

Could be totally automated.

<comment><USER23> Makes sense. Perhaps the two questions are there as a redundancy. Some people might answer "Yes" to the first question, but then "No" when asked in a slightly different way. In the first question, they're just answering for themselves. In the second question, they're taking a deeper mental look at their team and assessing if anyone on it isn't up for the move or the 100% commitment. To whatever extent there's conflict between answers to A and B, that's a sign that some people aren't being totally honest in answering A. (This is purely speculation, of course).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> I thought I had read on the S14 application that teams could submit an application, update it, and resubmit it before the deadline. I can't find anything that states the same with the new format. Is this still true?

My cofounder and I would like to ask for some critique on our answers including the personal questions. However it seems that the statement, "We will send an email to each founder to fill out additional information about themselves." implies that the application must be submitted before we see the personal questions. I just want to confirm if the first submission should be the final draft before we proceed.

Hopefully the questions about hacking a non-computer system and most impressive thing we've built/achieved are included in the personal questions. Those were some of the most fun to answer.

<comment><USER18> When you add your partners email/name it automatically sends them an email to fill out their portion of the application. It used to be a pain to gather everyone's info individually and paste it into the one application, so this brings collaboration to the application so your team can contribute their share.

<comment><USER4> Bios and applications can still be updated even after submitting if it's before the Oct 14 deadline.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> What if you're a solo founder that has a cofounder lined up but are waiting for the right catalyst to bring them aboard? What if you're solo but have been contracting out the areas where you need help?

<comment><USER4> You're a solo founder then. FYI: If the catalyst is getting into an incubator/accelerator, please note that bandwagon cofounders brought on after being accepted into YC almost never work out.

Making it into YC isn't impossible if you are. Many startups in the current batch are solo founder companies...Product Hunt, Filecoin, Lawn Love, Craft Coffee, etc. We would not reject a startup based on just ONE dimension or question. So if this is the ONLY thing you're worried about, you're in good shape.

<comment><USER26> "What? Me worry?" \- Alfred E Newman (YC applicant for the 10th time)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> I have a question about the "founder" status. I've been working on my project for quite some time and it's taking off. It's very likely I'm going to be able to afford inviting a friend on a part-salary/part-equity basis in the next few weeks. I'm still going to have a vast majority of shares. Will it be OK to count him as a co-founder?

<comment><USER28> Seen as the people at YC HQ will be in bed for another few hours I might as well offer my opinion. Your description appears to me to be more like an employee relationship than a co-founder relationship.

A co-founder is generally someone who's goals and interests are closely aligned with yours. Someone who's in it for the long run through all of the peaks and troughs experienced on the startup journey. If you own the majority of the shares and your friend's main interest is the salary you're paying him/her, then his/her goals are not closely aligned with yours.

I don't know how YC will view this but my advice is to think about building a team of co-founders who will stick together through thick and thin and share in the success of the company as well as the struggles. I guess that's why its so important to get good co-founders. You don't want to give half your company to someone who you don't believe offers a whole lot to the company's success. I hope this helps.

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> It'll be great to have a list of YC alumni who'd be willing to review applications. Would improve quality of applications overall.

<comment><USER30> Most alums are willing to review (or introduce you to someone who's a better fit). Feel free to email me at gordon [at] stacklead.com

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> Can you guys clarify the process for non-profits? Not just the application, but the entire YC experience. What's different?

<comment><USER4> [http://www.ycombinator.com/nonprofits/](http://www.ycombinator.com/nonprofits/)

"They did all the same things as the other startups, including present at Demo Day (which is after all a room with lots of rich people in it)."

We do have some foundations and philanthropists invited to Demo Day that'll be more appropriate for nonprofits and have you engage with other nonprofit yc alumni a bit more, but not much else. There's a joke Qasar tells the other startups on how to treat nonprofits in the batch when we first get started, "let's not kid ourselves, you're all nonprofits at this point."

<comment><USER31> Thanks for the info! I appreciate it, that does give a clearer view of the process.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> Interestingly, there is no real-world hack question("Please tell us about the time you (...) most successfully hacked some (non-computer) system to your advantage"). Why is so?

The "How to Apply to Y Combinator" essay hasn't been updated to reflect this change.

<comment><USER4> When you add founders, each founder gets a link to a separate form to fill out. The question is there. You each get to answer it instead of one.

<comment><USER33> Does the e-mail containing this link make any reference to the recipient's HN username?

<comment><USER22> It says "Hello rl3."

<comment><USER33> Thanks.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> Anyone knows if they prefer startups from certain regions in the world? I have the possibility of setting up the legal structure in Europe but also in North Africa. Don't know if it 's bad for my application if we do it in North Africa.

<comment><USER35> We look for great founders and great ideas, regardless of geography. BUT...if you get accepted, your company will have to convert into a US domestic corporation (preferably Delaware). So forming your entity now in Europe or North America may end up being a waste of time and effort.

</comment></comment><comment><USER36> Nice application process! It's funny what a little bit of styling does.

Is this a small side web app you guys rolled yourself or are you using a decision-making product (like Submittable, etc) for the back-end?

<comment><USER4> We wrote it ourselves.

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> The startup event in London was great, getstream.io will definitely be applying.

<comment><USER38> Can I ask, what are you folks using to generate your API documentation?

</comment></comment><comment><USER39> I'd love to see how many applications are started but not submitted.

</comment><comment><USER40> Interesting, do we have any alternative of YC in [eastern] Europe?

<comment><USER4> Is there a reason you're looking for an alternative?

There were 183 founders in the last YC batch. 74 were not born in the United States. That's 40%. They didn't all just come from Canada and UK, they came from 27 different countries. There were actually 17 French founders in this batch, which is the highest concentration we've ever had in a funding cycle.

If your users/customers are in Europe (or elsewhere) and it makes sense, we're not against you learning and raising the money that you need here and taking it back with you to grow.

</comment></comment><comment><USER41> I'd love to see how the application review process works.

</comment><comment><USER42> Found a page I shouldn't be able to see. I emailed sama, but there is probably someone more appropriate. Any ideas?

<comment><USER3> Shoot it my way. kat at ycombinator.

<comment><USER42> It's now fixed. I guess sama saw it. Thanks.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER43> Lets do it

<comment><USER44> What exactly does "technical" mean? Does it only apply to people who write code?

<comment><USER45> does it hurt not having a technical co-founder?</comment></comment></comment>


Your car, tracked: the rapid rise of license plate readers - <AUTHOR> http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/08/your-car-tracked-the-rapid-rise-of-license-plate-readers/ <comment><USER2> On a stretch of highway near where I live, they have installed 'average speed' cameras. These are cameras roughly 20 miles apart, and they read your plate as you drive through, then read it again when you leave. If your time between the two cameras is too short, you get a speeding ticket in the mail.

The worst part about it is that, in order to make it effective, they closed several highway exits so that people couldn't short-cut the system by taking an exit before the second camera.

While I don't like excessive speeding, I think this is just revenue farming rather than a public safety initiative, and all the assurances about the data being safe just don't wash with me.

<comment><USER3> How do they identify the driver?

<comment><USER4> That's just it -- they can't. Better not let someone else drive your car; if it's registered under your name, you're responsible for the fine!

 _EDIT: I stand corrected; apparently, this is not the case in AU, and may not be the case in certain states in the US. That's the last time I don't fact- check my posts... =P_

<comment><USER3> How does that even nearly meet the "guilty beyond reasonable doubt" criterion? I don't see how that could ever hold up in court.

<comment><USER5> in Iowa, the tickets they issue are civil citations, not criminal citations. Therefore, you have no right to confront your accuser and there is a lower criterion for guilt. Also, if you want to contest it to an administrative judge, it'll cost you an EXTRA $80

<comment><USER4> This is the state saying "We value the court's time & resources over actual justice."

Anecdata: A coworker once got ticketed for speeding on a highway on-ramp. Upon trying to contest his fine in court using photos of the roads, he was told by the judge that he would be fined an extra $[large sum] for every photo he attempted to show to him.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment> jack-r-abbit It never ceases to amaze me how much privacy people expect to have when they are out in public.

<comment><USER6> I don't expect privacy, just a reasonable degree of anonymity.

<comment> jack-r-abbit Fair enough.

 _To prevent problems, only Cronin and Hutton can add plates to the hot list. Each time a plate is run for historical data by either an officer or requested by an outside agency, the requester has to inform the chief by e-mail. Requests are tallied in an annual report for the town council._

The system parses license plates and matches them against a hot list. If a match is made, then a human gets notified. Some database somewhere knows the cars that have come and gone. But there is nothing to indicate that each license plate that gets captured is matched up to a person. The screen shot they have only shows the basic info captured from the camera. So unless your plate is on the hot list or someone with the authority requests to pull historical data about your plate number this does seem like a reasonable degree of anonymity.

It would be nice if this was regulated a bit. Data should get purged in a reasonable time frame. Solid auditing for data retrieval requests.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I knew it! Roughly a year ago I was driving home from work at night. My registration was expired by a few days, and I drove past an officer in a parking lot. As I was passing him, I knew my plate was expired, so I was looking at his plate to see if I would be able to determine from that distance if the plates were expired. So I was scrutinizing his plates to see how much detail I could see. I have better than 20/20 eyesight, and I knew there was no way I could see that level of detail at the distance he was at. So imagine my surprise when he comes after me immediately and pulls me over.

More out of curiosity than anything I asked him how he knew my plate was expired, his response was "I have really good eyes". I've thought back on that experience over the last year, and I knew the technology for reading a license plate wasn't hard, but I didn't know how widespread the use was. After reading this piece and seeing the picture of those cameras, which are mounted in that area, I'd bet they are using it to give expired registration tickets too.

<comment><USER8> Not sure how registration works where you are, in Calif (and other states) the yearly registration sticker is color coded by year. So, while they may have sought to read the "month" sticker, they might have just looked for the color of the tag as an indicator.

<comment> jack-r-abbit I want to say that each month also has a unique color. So the two color combo can easily be translated to the month/year your tag expires. A friend of mine drove for a long time using stickers he had peeled off of other cars. As long as he kept is driving legal, he would pass the "color checks". However, once he did something that gave a LEO cause to run his plate... clearly he was busted for it. Kind of interesting when you think that these cameras would have caught him straight away.

Another scenario, when people have paid for their registration but for one reason or another have forgotten to place the sticker on their plate. Those people would not get hit with these camera since their plate would not come back as expired. They would still fail the "color check" which usually can be explained to the LEO. If not, it is usually just a fix-it ticket.

<comment><USER4> Sounds like that state needs to implement anti-tamper stickers like you see in retail stores. They're scored in several places, so if you try to unpeel them once they've been stuck to something, they'll come off in pieces.

<comment><USER9> I use a razor blade to (a) remove all existing annual stickers from the plate (makes it harder to remove the top sticker intact), and (b) cut an "X" in the new sticker once I've applied it.

<comment><USER10> Is registration tag theft a problem where you live? That seems totally incredulous to me.

<comment><USER9> I'm not aware whether it is or not. But once I saw how easy it was to remove a sticker-stack intact using a razor blade, I adopted the habit. The effort involved is minimal (I keep a single-edge razor blade in my toolbox for utility reasons), so why not? Just another part of car maintenance, like changing the oil & filter...

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> It'll be interesting to see how this industry will adapt as cars become more automated.

<comment><USER8> That's a good point. As cars become more automated and perhaps evolve into a fleet of roving cars one "hires", or even the personal ones, I can see where a driver or passenger has to be "authenticated" as they are let in. In addition, the automobiles would be in constant communication about any state with a central office.

Something to this effect would obviate the need for external cameras, as one might assume this level of automation would allow for the autonomous vehicle to know if it was able to drive/ambulate legally or not (i.e., I'm not in compliance, do you wish to override, you can override 5 times before having to take it into a shop to have it re-registered and validated and authorized to carry people, etc.

<comment><USER4> As a passenger, why would you have to authenticate? You don't have to do this for taxis. At the most, you'd just have to prove up-front you could pay, and/or put a deposit down against damage to the interior.

If automated vehicles become common enough, the tracking issue might solve itself, as you'd be making micro-payments to a service, traveling anonymously, instead of owning your own vehicle.

<comment><USER8> I was thinking that in the scenario where there is a roving fleet of non- chauffeured cars for hire, one would auth (or identify oneself) so that it was known who to charge back in a non-repudiable way.

As a side-effect, it could be enhanced to check to see if the person did't have any outstanding warrants, leans, etc. against them. The system could, if allowed be programmed in such way, to take the person in, if it was certain/verifiable the person was "wanted" by the authorities. It sounds very dystopian, but it could happen, if the circumstances are right.

<comment><USER4> Again, why would you need to authenticate yourself? As an example, you usually don't have to authenticate when you pay for something with a card -- you just authenticate that the card is valid / has sufficient funds. That's why fraud detection for cards exists -- because you can use a card without being the owner. Also, there are prepaid cards, and cash (assuming that still exists).

As for your other idea, _Minority Report_ beat you to it -- when the authorities find out that the protagonist they are pursuing is riding in a certain taxi-car-pod, they lock it down and try to bring it in.

<comment><USER8> Auth to make it non-repudiable. Right now with peopled (staffed) services, one can ask to check ID, if there is a level of suspicion, that's a type of authentication, the way I see things. Since these cars would not have an "agent" they'd, given circumstances and business model, may have a need to ID people in a non-repudiable way.

I wasn't trying to beat a sci-fi scenario out. Just saying that this kind of automation would make the scenario possible, given the right legal allowances. It would be both useful (from a crime-fighting POV) and also very big-brother controlling. So I guess it depends on the balance people might find acceptable.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> In a few months RFID chips will start to be installed in all vehicles in Brazil, reaching 100% of the fleet in 2014. It seems like a much more reliable way to track cars and will hopefully bring enhancements in traffic control. The transit authorities also say it will "help fight vehicle theft" but I can't imagine how, since a tag on the windscreen it's pretty easy to remove...

We've also had plate scanning in highway patrol checkpoints for many years, they will probably be shut down in the next year or so. Any reason this is not being considered in the US?

</comment><comment><USER13> Think of a "crowd sourced" tracking system. Most people these days have phones that are capable of taking pictures, OCRing, GPSing and uploading this data in real time. It wouldn't be hard to build a system based on volunteers that maps most cars most of the time. And with facial recognition, mapping people as well.

And it's not even illegal.

Speaking of which -- anyone know a good open source ocr that can run reasonably on a mobile phone?

</comment><comment><USER14> Ugh... shit like this makes me want to wear a tin foil hat, but then I realize how much work that would be so I remain a lazy tracked american.

<comment><USER15> That's a nonstarter. The NSA started putting back-doors into aluminum back around the time of the Roswell Incident.

<comment><USER16> Probably a remote shutdown exploit by now, too.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> The article mentions potentially using LPRs to catch illegal immigrants -- how? Wouldn't this fall under the umbrella of just catching unregistered vehicles? You need a driver's license to register a car, and you need a birth certificate to get a driver's license.

<comment> jack-r-abbit Pure FUD. If you click through to the CNN article, you'll see that the ICE has asked companies to help them figure out a way to do it. It is largely based on the idea that they will compile a list of license plates that can be associated with "at-large, convicted criminal aliens". I'm not sure why they need to throw the word "alien" in there when just being able to capture "at- large, convicted criminals" is reason enough. It shouldn't really matter that they were aliens. I'm guessing it is to garner some bias against such a system since specifically targeting illegal aliens seems to be a constant hot button.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Here's the surprisingly thorough Wikipedia page: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_number_plate_recognit...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_number_plate_recognition)

</comment><comment><USER17> I wonder how long before they just put mandatory tracking chips in cars, rather than monkey patching it with expensive OCR machines on the road and in patrols vehicles.

<comment><USER18> Probably not too long, especially if they offered insurance premium discounts for willing early-adopter participants.

<comment><USER4> I'm a little surprised there aren't already insurance premium discounts for installing a "black box" to record accident data.

 _EDIT: Apparently there already are, both in the US and elsewhere -- see below comments. Next time I'll Google this before posting, I promise! =D_

<comment><USER19> I'm in a driving study right now that installed a black box (plus a couple of cameras) in my car, to see how people drive. The study took care to make sure that the recorded footage and sensor data can't be accessed during any incident; it's encrypted, they resist requests from the police, etc.

In a related note, I can't cross US borders until the driving study is over; the border police are Not Amused at being recorded, and the researchers really discourage trying to cross a US border in the car that the gear is installed in.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Design to accommodate change: Table-driven programming [pdf] - <AUTHOR> http://martinfowler.com/ieeeSoftware/accChange.pdf <comment><USER2> This is just bad technical writing. He is unable or unwilling or simply too lazy to produce a single concrete real-world example of the object of his high praise. He says he has found applications ranging from real-time embedded systems to library loans, so how hard would it be for him to to give a simplified version of one of those applications as an example? Heck, I'll settle for a non-real-world example, as long as it's tangible and concrete.

Contrast this with Jonathan Edwards's presentation on schematic tables (a powerful generalization of state charts) which despite its somewhat academic feel makes a strong case to the reader by employing a significant non-trivial example--an example which is admittedly also elegantly solvable in a lazily evaluated language like Haskell, as I pointed out to Jonathan a while ago: <http://alarmingdevelopment.org/?p=366>

<comment><USER3> We are trying to build a system that describes pricing rules for a set of products. After thinking about it for a while we have decided to use a table driven approach for capturing business rules describing the pricng structure. The columns capture the various attributes of the products/order form such as the territory it's sold in, the currency of the order, etc. The results/actions for each rule capture the prices. We choose to implement it this way for precisely the reason mentioned in the article - we want our end users to maintain the rules.

<comment><USER4> I have built systems like this (ones that worked, not just the anti-pattern described in my other comment). One caveat with EVERY "end users maintain this" system is that workflow rules, tables, DSLs, and everything else they "maintain" is CODE. It may not look like code, but if it drives the behaviour of the system, is code.

I take the view that if it walks like code and talks like code, it must be subject to the same rules as code. It must be checked into version control where it can be diffed and reverted. It must be pushed through staging and production. It must be testable, preferably with some kind of declarative tests.

In one system, we built the DSL for rules AND a DSL for declaring test cases so the analysts could write new rules and write tests for them.

You may have the same approach, or not as you deem appropriate.

<comment><USER5> _...and everything else they "maintain" is CODE_

Boy have I been bitten by that one before. I've learned after some time that punting the logic into customer-controllable data doesn't absolve it of all the problems that traditional code has.

 _In one system, we built the DSL for rules AND a DSL for declaring test cases so the analysts could write new rules and write tests for them._

Can you elaborate on how your DSL looks? How does one structure it to be powerful enough to encapsulate logic and simple enough for analysts to use?

Is it just simplified mathematical expressions? Or something more elaborate?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> _Thinking Forth_ by Leo Brodie has a good worked-out example of representing rule systems in various ways including several approaches that use tables. I think it's much better motivated than in the linked paper. Starting on page 52:

[http://books.google.com/books?id=1AlWbXItiCYC&lpg=PA52&#...
The entire text can be found here as a free PDF: http://thinking- forth.sourceforge.net/

</comment><comment><USER7> Hmm, I believe I've seen shades of this idea in Selenium's most basic test script format [1]. It isn't a decision table, per se, but it was designed to be as easy as possible for non-programmers to adjust. That said, I don't think table-driven programming is as widely useful as this author claims. Most of the testing engineers I know immediately moved away from Selenium script tables toward higher level constructs in JavaScript or Python. I don't think a table is great for expressing recursion or iteration.

[1] <http://seleniumhq.org/docs/02_selenium_ide.html#test-suites>

<comment><USER8> I think tables _can_ work great for expressing such concepts, but Sturgeon's Law applies here, too: almost all table-based systems do it badly. Subtext has no problem with recursion.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subtext_%28programming_language...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subtext_%28programming_language%29)

<comment><USER7> Very cool, I did not know that somebody had already gone and made a programming language like this. In watching the first ~10 minutes of the demo video [1] my thoughts were "Yes, this is a perfect example of where a table could be better than if/else," then when the warning indicators popped up at 5:50 "hmm, boolean algebra is still hard," and then at 7:30 with the demo of fibonacci/recursion "exploded expression trees that must be manipulated by mouse... let's go shopping."

But still, a lot of interesting thinking went into something like this, and it makes you wonder if it would be appropriate to "embed" a similar interface into an IDE for manipulating complex switch case/elseif chains.

[1] <http://subtextual.org/subtext2.html>

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I can give an anti-example of a table-driven system, although I am going to come right out and say that the table-driven aspect of this system has nothing to do with why it was such a problem. In reality, the project suffered from Conway's Law: Its architecture was driven by the way in which management divided up the work of designing and implementing the system.

<http://weblog.raganwald.com/2008/02/mouse-trap.html>

tldr: Excel >> VBA >> XML >> XSLT >> Java!

</comment><comment><USER9> I've used decision tables before and I don't particularly like them. The only good use for them is if the end-user both understands the rules and has the ability to change them. Otherwise, you're just covering up a code smell (nested if-else blocks) with a different representation without fixing the underlying problem.</comment>


Herb Sutter: C++11 Atomic Weapons (Lock Free Basics) (2013) - <AUTHOR> https://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Cpp-and-Beyond-2012-Herb-Sutter-atomic-Weapons-1-of-2 <comment><AUTHOR> Herb Sutter is one of the premier C++ experts, and his talk here about Atomics in the C++11 specification really made things "click" for me.

In this talk (roughly 2.5 hours if you include "Part 2" found here: [https://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Cpp-and- Beyond-20...](https://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Cpp-and- Beyond-2012-Herb-Sutter-atomic-Weapons-2-of-2)), Herb Sutter discusses the reasons why Atomics exist, and more importantly, why "Relaxed Atomics" are different than "Sequentially Consistent Atomics".

Throughout the talk, there are plenty of simple examples that discuss the necessity of "Sequentially Consistent Atomics" (aka: Volatile in Java / C#). There are also a few examples in "Part 2" which demonstrate a performance boost on Arm V7 / PowerPC when you use "Relaxed" Atomics.

Overall, if anyone wants to understand why the C++11 Memory Model was designed this way, as well as how to use the tools given to us by the C++11 language designers (which happens to be nearly identical to the Java and C# Memory Models to boot), this talk is amazing.</comment>


Bernie Sanders: Where the Democrats Go from Here - <AUTHOR> http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/12/opinion/bernie-sanders-where-the-democrats-go-from-here.html <comment><USER2> I think we need a post mortem in the Democratic Party.

Look I supported Hilary but there were so many things that went wrong. Let's talk about the fact that we suppressed our own vote. Emails came out that the party wanted Hilary to win at all costs enough to sabotage Sanders. Well that sort of thing doesn't help anyone, because a candidate not picked by the people will loose. Trump may have been someone that the party despised but he won the vote, they did not push him out. There are so many other things that we did wrong, why wasn't Elizabeth Warren in this? I know because the party wanted Hilary to win it.

There are many other things that can go into this post mortem. I've come to grips with the fact that we lost and I'm looking ahead at what we can do next time.

<comment><USER3> It sounds like you're genuinely interested in correcting mistakes made by the democratic party.

To that end as an outsider looking in, it seems to me that the biggest problem the democratic party has right now is the ability to openly discuss ideas in a rational manner free from the chains of political correctness and its inherent biases.

If the left could openly discuss the relationship between islam and terrorism, the negative impacts of certain equal opportunity laws on the minorities they are trying to benefit, the conflict between gender pronoun legislation and free speech, etc. then the party itself would be on big path for improvement.

Note: Your statements were about the Democratic Party so I gave you my opinion on it. The Republican Party is replete with its own flaws, but thats not the topic here. IMO I think most of the left/right dichotomy is a poor political model which leads to group think over rational contemplation of specific issues.

EDIT: I understand a libertarian or non-conforming opinion is not popular on HN or in liberal circles, hence the down votes. The irony here and specifically with my statement above is that we should uphold debate and argument over exclusion and political correctness to "let the good ideas win in free debate" and the only counter is to downvote and silence. Disagreement is great but it leads to Trump if you batle with intimidation tactics and silencing instead of actual argument. This is the biggest problem currently with many on the left and so I stand by my statement.

<comment><USER4> What is "gender pronoun legislation"?

<comment><USER3> The idea (which is now becoming law in some places such as Canada [1]) is that some people do not identify as male and female but rather as something inbetween. So if you refer to them using the words 'he' or 'she' then that is an act of violence against them. The laws enacted then fine you if you refuse to use whatever pronoun they prefer in place of 'he' or 'she'. [2] Some examples are ze,them, zer, etc.

1\. [https://youtu.be/kasiov0ytEc](https://youtu.be/kasiov0ytEc)

2\. [http://nypost.com/2016/05/19/city-issues-new-guidelines- on-t...](http://nypost.com/2016/05/19/city-issues-new-guidelines-on- transgender-pronouns/)

<comment><USER5> [http://www1.nyc.gov/assets/cchr/downloads/pdf/publications/G...](http://www1.nyc.gov/assets/cchr/downloads/pdf/publications/GenderID_Card2015.pdf) has a list of pronouns.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I like and respect Bernie Sanders a lot, but I can't help but feel that he's deliberately interpreting Trump's victory in a way that vindicates his own beliefs.

I somehow manage to be both amused and disgusted as I watch the media contort itself trying to explain Trump supporters as idiot racist protest voters. Their heads simply cannot contain the idea that many of his ideas have legitimate affirmative support among a near-majority of clear minded individuals.

Occam's razor is helpful here; people voted for Trump because they supported Trump. As a country we kind of have to get over that.

Large parts of the country want to take a dramatically different direction on economic issues from immigration to trade policy, and they voted for the candidate that represented their wishes.

For the record, I think both candidates were catastrophes waiting to happen (albeit in different ways). I voted libertarian.

<comment><USER7> There is substantial evidence that a lot of people voted for Trump because they did not like Clinton. If Clinton was a popular candidate I don't see a path to Trump winning, but she was a historically unpopular candidate, only Trump had a less favorable approval rating of any other presidential candidates since approval rating has been measured.

<comment><USER6> You say: "only Trump had a less favorable approval rating"... so how is it that the "horrible" option stole votes from the merely "bad" option? If anything, it should have been the other way around, no?

<comment><USER8> True, but Trump was the Change candidate according to exit polls, while Clinton was the establishment candidate: [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the- fix/wp/2016/11/10/th...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the- fix/wp/2016/11/10/the-13-most-amazing-things-in-the-2016-exit- poll/?tid=pm_politics_pop_b)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Clinton got some 5 million votes less than Obama 2012 and 10 million less than Obama 2008. Trump got less votes than Romney 2012 but more than McCain 2008. An average performance was enough to win because Clinton wasn't able to get the Democratic Party electors to vote.

Check the summaries at

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_ele...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2016)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_ele...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2012)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_ele...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2008)

and continue to look at the trends.

<comment><USER10> All votes of the 2016 election are not counted yet, and likely won't be for several weeks.

<comment><USER9> Oh wow, I understand that they are not important given how the electoral colleges work, but really don't the USA count all the votes within one day? Why is that? Seen from the outside it is very surprising.

<comment><USER11> Ha, you should see the Australian election. We were still counting votes for weeks after the election day.

<comment><USER12> The first preference vote and a provisionsal preference count is usually don on the night.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Both the RNC and DNC are screwed. Yes, the Republican candidate won (and brought a lot of senators with him), but he isn't "their man".

Both establishments put up their chosen people, and both establishments lost.

They've grown too insular, too much about the being "True Conservatives/Progressives", and less about representing people. Who are they to decide what we believe?

<comment><USER14> This is spot on.

Both Sanders and Trump attempted to "hijack" the mainstream political parties.

Trump obviously more successful (to become the party nominee).

Sanders is not a "Democrat" and Trump is not a "Republican".

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> The democratic party really needs to start prioritizing the needs of working class Americans. Too many policies clearly benefit corporations and the rich, at the expense of workers. Obama has been a huge disappointment, he talked of hope and change but delivered more of the same. Democrats also need to prioritize the needs of America over the rest of the world. Whatever else you say about Trump, it is clear that he puts Americans first.

<comment><USER15> >Democrats also need to prioritize the needs of America over the rest of the world.

We need to say this clearly: American citizens must not be the fuel for the American empire, and this should not be considered a _nationalist_ statement as such. Human sacrifice is just bad like that.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> Just fix one thing: hypocrisy

Just do what you say, for example, _GIVE_ your college seat to others who has a different skin color or whatever though their GPA is only 40% of yours, instead of just saying you're for AA but you took no actual meaningful action. Just _Moving_ to the neighborhood that you want to help directly and do not buy house in a conservative district then saying you're welcoming lots of section8 house nearby, that's just not good enough. Also let your employer know that you can _GIVE_ your chance to those who have a difference skin color but not as experienced as you. And _DONATE_ 20% of your after-tax income to help those in-need instead of asking the federal to print more money for food- stamps. Last but not least, just _PAY_ more premium out of your pocket so others can get a basically free-ride for medical care, etc,etc.

Just _DO_ it instead of say it, the one who benefited because your generous _actual_action_ will speak to others, so you can safely save the ideology part and let them speak for you, just DO what you want to say, instead of keeping saying it and expect others to do it for you and you feel good about saying those words.

If Democrats DO what they say, all issues will be fixed quickly.

<comment><USER17> Do you trust that donations to charity organizations do significant good? Because I'd just as likely give money to a charity as to a beggar, which is to say: no chance at all. What did they do to deserve my money, and why should I trust they'll spend it better?

As an aside, your text formatting very much distracted me from your content and left a patronising, annoying impression on me.

<comment><USER18> There are many charities with great, documented, track records. There is only one US government and it's track record of efficiently and effectively allocating resources is horrible.

<comment><USER19> I can't help thinking that the government might be better able to e.g. distribute medicaid if half (or more) of the government wasn't constantly doing everything in its power to prevent, disrupt or impede it. That's not usually a problem that charities have.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> No ones likes Trump. Its just that people dislike Clinton more. The DNC fielded a toxic loser that everyone outside of Manhattan and LA could smell from a mile away. Look into the Clinton Foundation, they are cartoonishly corrupt _and_ bad at hiding it. Trump made a lot of promises (like all politicians do) and will most likely come up short on all of them. Look to the future. The US will be fine, you guys have been through worse.

</comment><comment><USER21> Of course, larger macro economic forces make Trump's economic promises very hard to carry out. But his shortlist of candidates for cabinet and other major roles also cast doubts whether his administration will even end up trying.

The progressive wing of the democratic party now has more leverage within that party. Furthermore, [http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/13/business/economy/can- trump...](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/13/business/economy/can-trump-save- their-jobs-theyre-counting-on-it.html) does paint one of the nicest images of Trump voters, implying the Rust Belt voters who most dramatically swung republican vs 2012 and 2008 voted Trump in on a Sandernist mandate.

So 2020 could be interesting, but man waiting through 4 more years of gridlock will suck. If it weren't for supreme court I'd love to strike a bargin of "4 years your stuff, 4 years ours", so we'd actually run a good policy experiment.

<comment><USER22> Gridlock? I was thinking that by controlling the house, the senate, and the presidency, the Republicans are going to be able to push through all the legislation they want.

Combine that with new Supreme Court justices (and probably one or two more in the next four years) and Trump could effect more change than any President has in a long time.

<comment><USER21> Yeah that's the thing. They ought to be on their own, but if the democrats return the favor (and I do also feel we were _way_ too nice in 2008) and filibusterer everything, Congress will still have a hard time doing anything.

The supreme court is the exception to this.

<comment><USER23> Democrats don't filibuster republicans. Republicans filibuster democrats. They didn't do jack to stop NCLB or the Patriot Act or either of the war authorizations under Bush.

<comment><USER14> Are we talking Patriot Act re-authorization or original signing?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> I think part of the issue with Democrats vs Republicans is that the Democrats are basically gerrymandering themselves by clustering in ~10 states.

Let me explain: if you are a liberal living in a red state, it sucks. Lots of them move away, and they move to one of the bastions of liberal culture. That person's vote is now completely wasted since their state is already > 50% democrat while their original state now has 1 less person able to cast a liberal vote.

Not only is it liberals wanting to move out of their conservative hometowns, but it's also people moving to the larger cities. Many of those larger cities are in the same liberal states. And people who are willing to move to a big city for a job are probably liberal, or at least politically neutral. Another vote wasted.

So you end up with the only people who still want to live in the rural states are just naturally more inclined to vote Republican.

Compounding this problem, if a red state has a few cities that are heavily liberal, because of gerrymandering, the democrats have far less congressional representation than they should have. The republican state government sees to that.

A crazy idea is that the 50 states would be reorganized, just like congressional districts. Many of the less populated states who share similar values merged together. Like the entire bible belt / midwest could just be 2 or 3 mega states. The southeastern states could merge up and be Dixieland or whatever. Boom: less senators, less EC votes, everyone wins!

More realistically, we just have to get past the fact that each state has a minimum amount of power in our government. It should be scaled more with population, or the % that the candidate wins by should mean something (so all those wasted votes in heavily liberal states would actually count for something).

Ending gerrymandering at the congressional level would also help solve this problem. I hope we see algorithmic districts in the next 10 years.

</comment><comment><USER25> Democrats need to be like NFL coaches, who scientifically dissect losing games Monday morning.

As a life-long democrat, I blame the corruption in the DNC. I base my opinion on reading DNC emails, and favoring international news sources and a few people I trust on the web. In addition to the DNC's failings, I have lost almost all faith in US news media.

I hope that something positive comes out of this. I look to the future.

</comment><comment><USER4> 1) Stop triangulating 2) Repudiate neoliberalism 3) say what you believe even if it's not popular

</comment><comment><USER26> There are many types of diversity. Diversity of occupation, diversity of musical taste, diversity of outlook, diversity of residence, and of course varying kinds of racial and ethnic diversity. You could list thousands of kinds of diversity.

The original thinking behind the Electoral College was that geographic diversity was important. The Founding Fathers were not majoritarian, but rather they believed in placing special weight on diversity of this kind. The prevailing view was "if too many (geographically) diverse voices veto you, you can't get elected, not even with a majority of the votes." That view was a strange and perhaps unlikely precursor of today's veto rights/PC approach on campus, but there you go.

Democrats now control at least one legislative house in only 17 states, and the reach of the party is shrinking dramatically. So by the 18th century standards of diversity, emphasizing geography, the Democratic coalition is remarkably non-diverse. You can see how much of Hillary Clinton's majority came from the two states of New York and California. That also means the Republicans are not just a "Southern rump party," as some commentators used to suggest.

If you think of education as serving a smoothing function, the less educated are in some ways considerably more diverse than the educated.

The Democratic Party today is more likely to stress the relevance of ethnic and racial diversity, if the talk is about diversity. (Gender diversity too, but that requires its own post, maybe later to come.) Non-Democrats are more likely to count other forms of diversity for more than the Democrats do. I see Democrats as somewhat concentrated in particular cities and also in particular occupations, more than Republicans are. There is nothing wrong with that, but it is another way in which Democrats are less diverse.

When it comes to views about the relevant forms of diversity, the views of non-Democrats are more diverse than the views of Democrats, I would hazard to guess. A non-Democrat is more likely to focus on something other than racial and ethnic diversity, compared to a Democrat.

Correctly or not, many Americans do not think racial and ethnic diversity is the diversity that should command so much attention. That is one place to start for understanding why so many 2012 Obama voters switched to Trump this time around, or maybe just stayed home.

A few days ago I saw figures that 29 percent of Latinos voted for Trump (possibly that number has been revised). I suspect many of those voters do not see Latino vs. non-Latino as the diversity line that interests them most strongly.

I haven't offered any criticism of the Democratic point of view on diversity, even though you may feel that my description of it is trying to lower its status. (You are right, noting I don't wish to defend the R. point of view, but the R view does not need as much status-lowering either.) It may well be correct to have a less diverse view of diversity. If you were to start with an argument for that view, you could cite the long history of American slavery and segregation, plus continuing racial wealth inequality, as reasons for focusing so much on one kind of diversity rather than others.

Still, when I speak with Democrats, and with Progressives in particular, they view themselves, as a kind of assumption, as the people concerned with diversity. That is a significant cognitive mistake.

When Donald Trump was elected President of the United States, it was the forces of diversity — some diversities, many diversities — that won.

It was the people less concerned with diversity overall that lost. Again noting that some important notions of diversity do cut the other way, most of all racial diversity. And I do wish to stress that the presumptive argument for "diversity" simply isn't there, although that conclusion is hard to swallow that if you have imbibed too much contemporary political rhetoric.

In fact, I view the amazing diversity of the election and the electorate as having gotten the better of us. It is an example of how diversity can go wrong.

I believe that until Democrats and Progressives can grasp their lack of diversity intuitively, they will struggle to make their way forward in the new political climate of the United States. They will not understand how anyone could view them as divisive, since they automatically think of diversity as being on their side, rather than something they oppose.

[http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2016/11/coa...](http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2016/11/coalition- diversity-whose-diversity-diversity-just-win.html#comments)

</comment><comment><USER24> Why is this flagged? This is a great weekend discussion.

<comment><USER27> I think a lot of HN users are exhausted by the political discussions and are flagging such topics as a matter of course, especially given the HN guidelines regarding submissions on political topics. Quality of discussion likely doesn't enter into it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> tl;dr: Bernie uses this tragedy to toot his own horn

</comment><comment><USER29> Where /do/ they go from here then?

</comment><comment><USER30> Don't think Trump, or HRC were best choices, but i'd still pick either over Sanders. Sanders presidency would've been a disaster to the economy. He would've made starting a business, and employing people even harder than it is now. By rising the minimum wage he would've ruined the lower and lower-middle class by the time he's out of office. Not to mention that Sanders' gripe with the 1% is more populist than anything Trump or HRC ever said. As soon as he lost to HRC, he bought a 3rd house for $600,000. He sold out to HRC after he got shafted by the DNC. He can talk about the status quo all he wants, but he's a part of it.

<comment><USER31> Sander's policies were far from economy destroying, they were classic New Deal Democrat policies that rebuilt America in the 1930s and put millions back to work building the dams, roadways, and infrastructure that keep our society running today. Then, at the tail end of 1941 we had spent the better part of a decade rebuilding our infrastructure and were ready to join in on WW2, so we used all these dams, roadways, etc to build the arms & the Liberty Ships to transport said arms.

<comment><USER30> It's not at all agreed upon that the New Deal helped the recovery. It's just as much argued that it prolonged the Great Depression. It's baffling to me that you'd state that like it's a historical fact.

<comment><USER31> How else do you rebuild an economy that just had a huge bubble pop in one major industry, has the dust bowl going on, and has knockon effects destroying the entirety of peoples savings?

Greece tried to tighten their belt and tax their way out of it, just led to compounding double digit economic contraction.

Instead, when we have bubbles pop, we usually inject money into the economy to keep economic carnage like that at bay, and in the 1930s we created a jobs program so as to put those funds to effective use. This has worked well for the US, as compared to Greece.

<comment><USER30> You don't need government investment to make that happen. The issue was the lack of money supply, which was solved partially by Roosevelt's ban on owning gold, but partially by people fleeing Europe, which allowed the federal government to print more.

This has nothing to do with Sanders' policies though. Sanders' policies are a continuation of everything wrong with the New Deal, namely things like the minimum wage and government-supported worker unions, which prevent hiring of low-skilled workers, usually from the lower class, and make hiring overall a risky process, leading to less hires, higher unemployment, and corporations outsourcing abroad.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Houzz raising $400M at $4B valuation - <AUTHOR> https://techcrunch.com/2017/06/09/houzz-400m-raise-4b-valuation/ <comment><USER2> Huh. I just realized I didn't really know what Houzz was. Not even sure if I still do.

As an interior design enthusiast, I come across Houzz all the time. It's one of my least favourite sites in that regard, after Pinterest. The problem for me is that it mostly serves to obscure. It's full of pictures of furniture and other design objects that are usually impossible to source -- just like Pinterest, which itself is one step down from design blogs that rampantly steal each other's photos without credit. It's _so_ hard to source design. Most of the time, what you come across isn't even a product, it's some concept work by some designer in Spain who has no plans to manufacture whatever it is, or it's a custom job. Or some super high end Italian product with a price that's firmly in the "if you have to ask, you can't afford it" category.

Sure, valuable for inspiration, but annoying if you're looking to buy, say, a modern coat rack. (Which is surprisingly difficult, by the way. The US has still, for the most part, not caught up with modernism when it comes to interior design.)

Houzz does have a shop section, but it's not great. Mostly there's confusion about what mode Houzz is currently in; when landing on Houzz from Google I'm usually unsure if I'm looking at a product page, a lookbook or an ad for some interior decorator.

<comment><USER3> _> It's full of pictures of furniture and other design objects that are usually impossible to source -- just like Pinterest, [...] It's so hard to source design._

I get your frustration but keep in mind that you're running up against the intended ethos of the Houzz website.

\- Pinterest photos are mostly about _" things"_ and a social network of sharing "collections".

\- Houzz design photos are about _" professionals"_ \-- even though they usually don't have people in the photos. Notice that the vast majority of design photos are _uploaded by professionals_ such as architects, interior designers, and home builders. Those business people are _showcasing their portfolio_. This is why the individual "things" in the photos are not easy to source.

Some users do attempt to source the products by submitting a question to the professional contractor that uploaded the photo such as, _" where did you get that table and sofa?"_

Sometimes the professionals will reveal the source such as "got it from Crate & Barrel" but most of the time, they'll respond something like, _" it was purchased from our design studio"_ \-- which is a roundabout way of way of telling the prospects to contact them for professional services. _This is the way Houzz is intended to work._

Another website analogy would be Soundcloud. Imagine if users were frustrated that after listening to the music clips, it was not easy to "source the brand of guitars or drums". Well, most soundcloud music is uploaded by _musicians_ and not music gear manufacturers. It's intended to showcase their _songwriting_ and not whether the guitar used in the song was a Gibson or Fender.

Yes, Houzz does have some overlap with Pinterest for "things" (e.g. Shop by Department tab) but the original motivation of it was a _portfolio_ of professionals' work. Or, to restate it in terms of another website analogy, it's a photo album version of Angie's List professional remodelers.

 _> Most of the time, what you come across isn't even a product, it's some concept work by some designer [...] or an ad for some interior decorator._

Yes, that's exactly what the Houzz design photos are about: Professionals not products. (Again, similar to the glossy monograph books from architects and interior designers you can buy from Amazon. The books' photos showcase the "look" but don't itemize the individual products.)

(However, that doesn't stop Houzz from evolving with their AI deep learning efforts to become more of a "products" buying portal rather than a marketplace for professionals.)

<comment><USER4> > Imagine if users were frustrated that after listening to the music clips, it > was not easy to "source the brand of guitars or drums". Well, most > soundcloud music is uploaded by musicians and not music gear manufacturers.

This analogy does not hold because nearly any musician will jump to the opportunity of sharing their gear and setup. It was pieced together passionately over a decade, after all; the proud basis of the musician's success.

<comment><USER3> _> This analogy does not hold because nearly any musician will jump to the opportunity of sharing their gear and setup._

They'll share info on music gear forums[1] but not on Soundcloud. One could visit 10 rappers' soundcloud page and leave a comment asking _" what microphone did you use for your rap vocals?"_ and you usually won't get a reply. That's normal. A lot of musicians upload their music but don't engage with the comments left by users. Musicians aren't being secretive on Soundcloud; they simply don't view it as a Q&A platform.

In any case, what I meant by "items not easy to source" for Soundcloud analogy is that there is no "add to cart" or url for the _products you hear in the song_. E.g., there is no button that says _" Buy the Shure SM58 vocal mic you're hearing"_. In contrast, Pinterest has direct and obvious hotlinks to retailers' websites.

Therefore, getting frustrated that SoundCloud _" doesn't make it easy to source the music gear you're listening to"_ is to misunderstand what SoundCloud is about.

[1] gearpage, harmonycentral, gearslutz, etc: [https://www.google.com/search?q=music+gear+forum](https://www.google.com/search?q=music+gear+forum)

<comment><USER5> This is a decent analogy, but maybe the difference is that someone in the market for music gear doesn't expect SoundCloud to help them buy it (they know they need a music shop instead); someone in the market for house stuff does expect Houzz to help them buy it (it's not obvious what the deal is).

Or simply that many SoundCloud listeners aren't themselves looking to buy gear / make music; many Houzz users are indeed looking to DIY.

<comment><USER3> _> ; someone in the market for house stuff does expect Houzz to help them buy it (it's not obvious what the deal is). [...] ; many Houzz users are indeed looking to DIY._

Yes, you're right. The user-interface to Houzz website does not make the "professional marketplace" distinction obvious.

Houzz does get revenue from both product companies like IKEA furniture, and Viking and LG appliances, etc. They also get revenue from professional contractors to show up in listings when people search photos for "ideas".

Yes, it's not obvious that 99% of the idea photos that people bookmark into their ideabooks come from professionals to advertise their "services" and not product manufacturers to sell "stuff".

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Houzz is one of a few bigger unicorns that I actually believe has a chance in the long run. First of all, it doesn't depend on being sexy or trendy like a social network, so there's no reason why the business will fail eventually. People almost certainly won't be using Snapchat in 50 years, but they will be buying houses.

Additionally, houses are an absolutely massive market. Housing is the largest expense of most people I know, and there's a ton of price weirdness. A kitchen remodeling might cost $14k, and that's not something you can buy on Amazon, and it's not like you can get your kitchen remodel done in China for cheaper (well, unless your house is in China.) If you were planning on $15k for your remodel, and a local contractor would offer $14k, but Houzz sends you to a "Houzz professional" contractor that offers $16k, you'll probably trust Houzz and accept $16k without questioning too much.

That's two thousand dollars from one kitchen remodel right there. Of course, that's not how Houzz's business model works right now, but there are lots of ways they can make money. You're also not going to accept that price discrepancy from any other consumer-focused things. Say, a laptop: if the new Macbook was $1600 in Best Buy and $1400 on Amazon, almost everyone would just buy from Amazon.

Additionally, they have a surprising amount of name recognition among the wealthy. I know a decent amount of wealthy people, and a few ultra-wealthy people, and I've heard maybe 25% mention Houzz. If you can get even a tiny portion of the ultra-wealthy-house-spending market, you're golden. Remember, the ultrawealthy have most of the world's wealth, and they spend a lot of that on ridiculously fancy houses with no care about cost.

Finally, there's no "bomb factor". Maybe there'll be a scandal tomorrow about Facebook selling your photos to some evil actor. Maybe Snapchat will get a massive lawsuit about its storage of millions of inappropriate pictures of underaged people. But how are you going to get angry at Houzz?

<comment><USER7> Holy shit, this. If I could get a contractor or a remodeling project like I would an Uber, with a reputation and history system, I'd choose it in a heartbeat, even at a premium. I wonder how they deal with people bypassing the system to avoid their fees (e.g. AirBnb).

<comment><USER8> This is notoriously hard to do, if not impossible. Every home project is unique, where unknown and unforeseen issues arise all the time. Plus, like many service companies, they have turnover and a growth arc which makes them a moving target. I've used Angie's list before, which was valuable, but with ultimately mixed results. They seem to promote a model of getting good quality, but where price varies from inflated to egregious.

<comment><USER9> Everything you stated is true, but just points to how much value there would be to unlock for a company that could crack this nut.

But most of the attempts refuse to take on any liability for themselves, and half the reason to use such a company would be accountability and reduction of personal risk.

For the various home projects I've done before, it always feels like such a gamble with a ridiculous amount of information asymmetry, although thankfully the internet has made great strides in fixing that part of the equation.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Shameless plug since I rarely see us mentioned on HN:

We're hiring for a large range of engineering roles including some more specialized positions in research (writing classifier models and machine learning operations) and 3d (computer vision, photogrammetry, rendering). There's a lot more behind the scenes than just pretty pictures.

[http://houzz.com/jobs](http://houzz.com/jobs) and mention HN

<comment><USER9> Can you comment at all on the many frustrated users who wish to file their Houzz finds away on Pinterest, but are unable to due to all of the ways you try to prevent that?

While I enjoy content on Houzz, I have zero interest in splitting that information across platforms as I keep all of that in Pinterest and share boards with my wife.

Frankly I find it very off-putting how blatantly it is blocked, and it makes me want to engage with Houzz less because I fear what else you might do in the future that is anti-user. With a massive round of funding comes massive investor expectations. For an advertising/affiliate model like Houzz has, that obviously means the users are the product and not the customer, so I see this as magnifying those existing concerns.

<comment><USER11> Yeah I hate these sort of "protections". Twitter also does it. It's fine, a simple Tanpermonkey script is enough.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Houzz is interesting because all the photos are of homes with limitless budgets. So you have to set your expectations of your remodel, or just enjoy dreaming big if that's your cup of tea. They're all gorgeous though and they do an amazing job of classifying them. A+ Filters!

Still, I find their professional market section to be a extremely frustrating and they will need to figure out how to scale that down market if they want to continue growing. None of interior designers or "architect/contractors" listed on there would get back to me unless I promised to spent at least $50k on a project with them. Then once I finally found a couple "interested," they were flakey and never got back to me.

I must have exhausted the list on their platform before I moved over to Yelp. Right away I found all the help I needed and everyone was so courteous and followed through. Such a world of difference from the 2 platforms. I do think Yelp's open review platform keeps businesses way more honest and it shows. Any project I start now and I'm asked where I learned about the business, I mention Yelp :).

<comment><USER13> _> Houzz is interesting because all the photos are of homes with limitless budgets._

I don't think this is true. There are tons of Ikea kitchens in Houzz. We got a lot of inspiration from Houzz when renovating our apartment. I really like that it has a mix of high-end and Ikea, because many times those high-end ideas can be implemented with cheaper alternatives.

<comment><USER12> I don't really think IKEA cabinets are that much cheaper if you factor in all the other costs.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Pinterest, Houzz, and build.com are all really interesting points on the same spectrum. Pinterest currently doesn't do a great job of monetizing it's various communities, but is the leader in terms of customer volume and is getting better at delivering advertising value to both its customers and advertisers. build.com started on the opposite side by creating the relationships with all the direct suppliers/middlemen, and then giving people a chance to create deal directly with them. Houzz is a great combination of both. I would call it a specific vertical unbundling of Pinterest with the supplier relationships of build.com.

It will be interesting to see Pinterest build these direct relationships with sellers rather than build their own affiliate or else advertising platform. The big open for me, but probably not investors valuing them at 10B+ is will they be able to capture all that purchase intent themselves, or will they ossify like craigslist unable to deliver on any of their vertical specific values while slowing being cut up by competitors like the Knot, Houzz, and others. From what I read in their press releases and articles about the company, the Pinterest team seems miles ahead of craigslist at the same point in their development.

The interesting dynamic here for me is what happens as purchase intent advertising shifts from Google and web-search to Pinterest and others. Seems obvious that pictures are more accessible and valuable than text but I'm sure there is an army of statisticians at Google who can argue otherwise with me.

Also, it's really validating to see Houzz raise so much money at such a good valuation. The team there has been working hard in the shadow of the bigger companies and has created a real competitor in their vertical. They are here to stay.

</comment><comment><USER15> I'm a product seller on Houzz and it's been a great platform for us to reach a more design-centric clientele.

Though from my perspective, it seems hard to tell what their main focus has been over the last year or so. I've talked to friends and coworkers and they all seem to know about the site, though mostly only know it for the great interior photos. Many seem to miss the fact that many of the products in the photos are also for sale.

I haven't seen many improvements in the seller tools over the past year, and their service team seems very manual. Example: It can take days for them to respond to processing a return request. Something that I can by myself on many other platforms. I feel bad for my customers who need to deal with a return or support request from them as a lot of what I can do to help instantly is simply not available. I hope with the additional resources they can direct some of it to customer support improvements soon.

That all said, maybe the store on the site is just an afterthought and they have some other grand scheme at play.

</comment><comment><USER16> Woah...that's a gigantic valuation...I wouldn't have expected their gross income to be in the nine figures yet?!

<comment><USER17> I agree, $4 billion is at least 2x-3x more than I would have expected. Housing and everything connected to it is obviously a wildly lucrative industry if you can find a way to skim a sliver out of any of the various layers. That's essentially what Houzz has done, injected themselves as a middle-man referral engine (no different than a Priceline or Kayak).

Zillow is chasing down $1.x billion in sales for the next four quarters. Seems remarkable as well.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> They figured out the pinterest advertising model first. Show lots of good looking pictures based on the users intent and surround it with lead generating ads.

<comment><USER19> And they _dont_ require you to login.

Just did a big remodel, spent tons of time on haozz and none on Pinterest due to that one fact.

Don't know that I bought anything I saw there but certainly _saw_ more ads there than Pinterest

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> Didn't know they're so big. Still considering posting my apartment's renovation photos there. Nice job feeling small and local.

</comment><comment><USER21> I've always thought of Houzz as the perfect example of a site that would be ten times better with my startup's technology -- as an example, here's a comparison of Houzz's UX vs. my UX on the same image: [https://youtu.be/6kOCIkJ-5vY](https://youtu.be/6kOCIkJ-5vY)

As a text description of what it does, PLEENQ[1] allows individual objects within images to highlight when you hover them, and directly link to the object (in this case, kithen products). Here's a much better demo version of PLEENQ's technology: [https://youtu.be/tf4pE0xtYTo](https://youtu.be/tf4pE0xtYTo)

Before these white rectangles over the images, they used to have "price tags" that you could hover over, but the UX was all wonky, since the price tag triggered a popup which prevented you from seeing/hovering over other price tags.

I'll probably add a feature for my users like the product options they have below the images, though -- I like that a lot!

[1] [http://pleenq.com](http://pleenq.com)

<comment><USER22> Client-side image maps have been around since HMTL 3.2 (~20 years). What's special about your tech?

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> From the article:

>"The newest funding round, which Recode reported is being led by Iconiq, comes on top of more than $200 million that Houzz had raised from investors that include Sequoia, New Enterprise Associates, GGV Capital and others."

Does anyone know what the valuation was on the previous $200 million round?

</comment><comment><USER24> Huhwah? I've never even heard of them. Am I that out of the loop?

<comment><USER25> I've never heard of them either.

They must be pretty big though. I just went to their website, and they say that I can search through over 240,000 "professionals" in my city. That's great market penetration for a town with a population of fewer than 40,000 people.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> They have enough traffic to earn around 150 million dollars a year just from Adsense. Their valuation make a lot of sense.

</comment><comment><USER27> Interesting to see the professionals part of the website. I wonder how well it competes with Thumbtack

</comment><comment><USER28> Why are they raising money? Looks like a pretty simple site. What are they burning the money on?

<comment><USER29> > Looks like a pretty simple site

If you ignore the fact that it's actually a full e-commerce platform, and ignore the machine vision categorization ("AI") and augmented reality aspects to their product, you also have to realize it's not a site, it's an ad platform that does probably just shy of $1B in annual revenue. Not so simple!

It's also not just some "site" that has a dev team of maintainers. Houzz is a full-on sales and marketing corporation. They'll likely be 2,000 employees soon. Only a small fraction would be software engineers (my guess, probably 70 growing to 100). There are likely a few hundred employees in the sales organization. A sizable marketing team. Maybe 500 account managers. A design team. An operations team. An editorial team. A non-trivial HR and recruiting team. An administrative support team.

At a guess, $400M is probably one year's payroll expenses for them.

I have no affiliation with Houzz and am actually ambivalent about them, FWIW. Just wanted to demonstrate that these things aren't so simple.

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> Never heard of them before. Interesting.

<comment><USER31> Same here... :/

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> The bubble is all too real

<comment><USER33> Are you saying this with knowledge of Houzz's financials and growth numbers or are you just randomly saying things to say them?

Would love to hear why you think the bubble is all to real.

<comment><USER32> Here's why the bubble is all too real. Let's compare Houzz to another company in the housing space with a $4 billion valuation that's not swept up in the tech bubble, US Gypsum. Last year USG, a company that has survived for 116 years, made about $400 million in profit. That's not make believe non-GAAP BS, that's actually profit. I'm not privy to the intimate details about Houzz's financials, however I'd be surprised if they made a tenth of that. The question I ask myself is if Houzz will ever be this profitable, and when. I'd guess no, but I could of course be very wrong.

When the market turns, which it will, profitability is what counts in determining who survives and who doesn't. When we start measuring performance using metrics other than profit, which is quite common now i.e. revenue, non- GAAP profit, users, and so on, we are ignoring what really matters and this allows for situations like the dot com bubble and the current bubble to arise.

These companies are raising cash with ease now, and burning it just as easily. There will be a day, I think sooner than later, when it's not so easy to raise such enormous sums of money. When I see something like Uber losing $3 billion last year, and funds still lining up to invest, I can't help but think that we're in the middle of a bubble. These tech firms are selling hope more than anything else to investors.

<comment><USER34> Houzz probably has 100s of millions in profit per year right now.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Reddit's all good except - <AUTHOR> http://itscommonsensestupid.blogspot.com/2007/11/reddit-is-all-good-except.html

<comment><USER2> The New York Times had a great article on cumulative advantage a few months back.

This is something to think about in terms of generating interest in any startup you might be involved with (namely being prepared when your chance comes). The snowball effect is phenomenal but keep in mind it can work in both directions.

[http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/15/magazine/15wwlnidealab.t.h...](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/15/magazine/15wwlnidealab.t.html)</comment>


Builders bulldoze Mayan Pyramid - <AUTHOR> http://news.uk.msn.com/world/builders-bulldoze-big-mayan-pyramid <comment><USER2> Like the rest of the commenters I feel horrified about this.

But why do I feel this way? The vast majority of buildings are demolished and recycled. What is about this one--the age, I assume? Maybe it's a symbol of humanity's time on the earth--but why is that personally important to me?

Maybe I'm nuts but I think it's fascinating to really dig into the "why" behind such a common emotional reaction.

<comment><USER3> Many humans value stasis for its own sake. This is the urge powering most of the US environmental movement.

<comment><USER4> And here I thought that the driving force was the desire for clean water and clean air.

<comment><USER3> This is fairly easy to dispute... people aren't even asking for clean water and clean air (we have those already!). They're asking for things like habitat preservation and biodiversity.

Here are the Sierra Club's top goals[1]:

\- end use of coal, oil, and natural gas (this is three goals for them, but I see them as thematically linked)

This is a mix. They attack all three for being "dirty". They also attack oil because oil corporations are engines of political corruption (it strikes me that while this is something you can come up with if you're already against oil on principle, you're unlikely to decide, based on this, that you should be against oil). And, they attack oil and natural gas (I didn't check coal) because the extraction process causes "environmental damage".

\- "Resilient Habitats"

Seems to be half about preserving existing ecosystems and half about preventing climate change. Nothing to do with clean water or clean air.

\- "Protecting America's Waters"

Definitely a clean water issue.

Here are Greenpeace's "What We Do"s[2]:

\- Protecting Ancient Forests

"We're working to create a world with zero deforestation." This is a stasis issue.

\- Protecting our oceans

Unlike the Sierra Club, Greenpeace is not worried about water pollution. It's worried about overfishing (and especially overwhaling). This is another stasis issue.

\- Stopping Global Warming

Yep, a stasis issue.

Look at my sibling comment -- the problem with destruction of this buried temple is that the loss is irrevocable. It's not that the temple was in use for any purpose (it wasn't), or that there could have been a future use; it's just that something we "had" is now gone.

Don't confuse the reason a movement began with the same movement's current goals. Movements do not cease just because they've achieved their goals.

[1] <https://content.sierraclub.org/sierra-club-programs>

[2] <http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/en/campaigns/>

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I hope Belize and other such places learn their lesson from this about leaving important places unprotected. For instance, if someone _can_ blow up Giant Crystal Cave of Mexico, just for the fun of it, _someone_ will, eventually.

It's not as if there is a shortage of stupid people anywhere.

<comment><USER6> Yes, and when local governments lack the power, desire and/or resources to protect heritage sites, can the larger world community step in, and how? Perhaps start by buying the land where such sites are located?

<comment><USER5> Sure, the private-property solution can work well, as can active governmental protection. In this case though, Belizean laws made the destruction easy. This monument was on private property, but the monument itself was under government "protection". The owner of the land had no incentive to protect it.

<comment><USER7> He would have had an incentive if letting it be damaged recklessly meant he'd go straight to jail...

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Unfortunately, I doubt that anything (beyond a few incensed academics) will come of this. That, to me, is the true tragedy because it virtually ensures that it's only a matter of time before this happens again.

</comment><comment><USER7> I say strip them of their rights and ship them to Afghanistan to have a drink with their buddies who blew up the 1,500-year old Buddha statues there... (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhas_of_Bamiyan>)

</comment><comment><USER9> My heritage and history destroyed, and for what? It's stuff like this that makes me not want to wake up in the morning, much less procreate.

</comment><comment><USER10> I hate humans. I hope we go extinct.

<comment><USER11> I'd understand that sentiment better if the item in question wasn't a _human_ monument.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> I'm sad now.</comment>


Review: EliteBook 8540p (ThinkPad competitor) - <AUTHOR> http://www.geek.com/articles/chips/review-hp-elitebook-8540p-laptop-20100323/

<comment><USER2> adding the numeric keypad, then not centering the trackpad make me think I will be sitting to the left side of the portable. It just feels really weird.</comment>


What do Developers Want - <AUTHOR>

Hello! I'm trying to get developers to show up to my event for developers but not having any luck. What kind of benefits would entice a developer to come out to the event - free of charge - and mix and mingle maybe with potential start ups but mostly with other developers. Can you guys help? Thanks! You rock! <comment><USER2> Your event seems like a product looking for a solution, but beer and girls will get you some developers.

<comment><AUTHOR> Ha...the age old perennial wants and desires haven't changed eh?</comment></comment>


Ask HN: Favorite Sarcastic Code Comments - <AUTHOR> I'll start:<p>/* I re-implemented the fisher app. I started out debugging it to get a working build of the notorious 'yellow-flasher' that creeps around the building after hours. But after wasting the weekend scouring through the some 13000+ lines of #ifdefs and globals and half-commented out blobs of nonsensical squirrly rats nest, hairballs wedged between the clever global macro obfuscated pointers that were only implemented for QNX but also sometimes used on the mythological MicroBlaze based RIM which was abandoned long ago but the code is still there cluttering up the actually useful functions which no longer work correctly because someone lost the only version of working code and now we only have a pre-built binary that everyone has been using since March 2019 but no one is willing to fess up to being the one who compiled it because they are probably terrified that we may ask them to make a change to it. (inhale)<p>So I decided to not go that route because I'd likely still be working on it in December. */ <comment><USER2> I'm not seeing the sarcasm but it's a great comment. I can't think of a sarcastic comment right off the top-of-my-head either but I do have a funny comment story:

For the longest time (starting in the '80s) I started a comment with the following snippet if there was a need for the developer to be really certain they wanted to change something about code:

/* ____* DANGER WILL ROBINSON __ __* * ... * /

This always made me smile because "Lost in Space" was one of my favorite television shows growing up in the early '70s ... and because most of the people reading the comment didn't know the reference. That changed slightly when the movie came out but really became known when Netflix revived the series.</comment>