The Google-Amazon spat has left more customers caught in the crossfire - <AUTHOR> https://www.fastcompany.com/40504152/the-google-amazon-spat-has-left-more-customers-caught-in-the-crossfire <comment><USER2> It used to be that putting a video on YouTube guaranteed it was available on basically any device anywhere. I guess Google is ruining that too now.</comment>


Legislation proposes paying Americans $2k a month - <AUTHOR> https://www.news4jax.com/news/national/2020/04/15/legislation-proposes-2000-a-month-for-americans/ <comment><USER2> This is a good idea. Congress should commit to such ongoing payments, and the Fed should back it with a commitment to unlimited borrowing.

Borrowing money is _incredibly_ cheap at the moment, perhaps even negative cost! Three reasons:

1\. Interest rates are very very low. Borrow when it's cheap.

2\. With these payments, sick people won't need to go to work to have an income.

3\. Universal payments can keep people out of programs such as SNAP, state unemployment insurance, etc. These are currently overwhelmed and typically have high administrative costs, plus human costs in terms of means-testing and other shortsighted cruelties (would you like to prove you have been looking for work?)

The article doesn't go into details about the sunsetting provisions (which ought to be tied to infection rate, deaths, etc) but the idea of "the govt borrows until the health crisis is over" is correct.

</comment><comment><USER3> I will try to explain why this is a really harmful, bad idea; that we should help each other, and there are better ways to do it, and that there needs to be the basic incentive of working, in life, to live.

To the extent that we remove the connection between choices and consequences, we harm everyone. This applies in so many ways. This includes things like lifestyle, including habits, striving to learn & build good family ties, honesty, choosing to pursue education and service, more than just entertainment and pleasure (but with appropriate balance), trustworthiness, avoiding self-destructive behaviors, etc etc. All which greatly affect employability!

But if we make it easily survivable to live on the wrong side of those...what do we encourage? At ever-greater cost to everyone... Think we have a drug problem now?

Some consistently very bad experiences with medicare's and SSA's organizational incompetence (as reflected in ability to provide remotely useful information over many weeks and months, etc) make me definitely not want the federal government to take ever-more resources and control of our economy and lives.

I do believe we are responsible (before God, and if one doesn't believe, then at least to our consciences) to care wisely for one another, and with personal sacrifice to do so -- but not by force.

I also believe, with a fair amount of observation and study among myself and family, that things resembling forcible socialism (or the fed. government solving everyone's problems instead of being strictly limited to its constitutional role) are also harmful to everyone and have been proven many times to be a disastrous failure (Soviets, Venezuela, etc etc).

Charity by force is wrong and foolish, from Christian principle, long historical observation, and (to me at least), logic.

Charitable service done voluntarily by individuals, organizations, families, communities, maybe even states who can then learn from each other what works vs. not, can be wonderful, and I and many others have seen it work in long- term multifaceted practice. But when we force a system on everyone -- bad things happen, in the short and long run.

We can go out and do good and solve problems, by joining with others, using persuasion and fundraising, creating jobs programs (not federal), promoting good ideas, seeing what has worked well elsewhere, but not by forcibly taking control of others people's money (which represents their time and energy, planning and preparation) and thus a loss of freedom for all. Every crisis should not be an excuse to expand control by some, over others.

I have written many more details about this & related subjects at my web site, which is in my profile.

I very much hope we can promote principles over politics, such as: earned trust matters; opportunity, honesty and the Golden Rule matter; charity is important, charity by force is wrong, and breaking the link between choices and consequences harms everyone.

</comment><comment><USER4> 330 million americans at $24,000 a year comes out to $7.9 trillion dollars a year. How exactly are we going to afford that?

<comment><USER5> > The bill, known as the Emergency Money for the People Act, would issue > monthly payments of $2,000 to individuals and families for six months, or > until the U.S. economy recovers from the coronavirus outbreak.

and then:

> Every American adult age 16 and older making less than $130,000 annually > would receive at least $2,000 per month.

So every single number in your back-of-the-envelope is wrong.

1\. We're looking at some number between $12k and $24k / year.

2\. The number of americans who qualify is going to be much lower than 330mil. Since many americans make more than $130k/year, and also many americans are CHILDREN which only qualify for a $500/month check for their parents.

~3. For MANY of the americans who qualify, a significant chunk of the of up- to-$24k would be eaten up by taxes.~ edit: apparently it is not going to be considered income, which suggests it's not taxable. That differs from the canadian strategy.

Canada is doing this now. It is absolutely the correct thing to do. You can't tell people not to work to help other people, and not support them in doing that.

<comment><USER6> _> and also many americans are CHILDREN _

only approx 18.7% [1]

.

 _> Since many americans make more than $130k/year_

Actually, approx 90% of americans make _under_ 130k/yr [2]

.

 _> a significant chunk of the of up-to-$24k would be eaten up by taxes._

"Under the proposal, the payments would not be considered income"

.

So we can calculate approximately:

(1 - .1) * (1 - .187) * 330M = 241M people

241M x $2000 x 12 = $5.8T/year = A LOT

.

[1][https://www.statista.com/statistics/270000/age- distribution-...](https://www.statista.com/statistics/270000/age-distribution- in-the-united-states/)

[2][http://theglitteringeye.com/u-s-income-distributiona- chart-t...](http://theglitteringeye.com/u-s-income-distributiona-chart-to- contemplate/)

<comment><USER5> 10% of americans is 33 million people. That is many.

You're still using 12 months in your calculation. The act says at least six months, or until it is not needed. So some number equal or greater than 2.9T

Thinking about it as an annual expense seems very wrong. Even if it takes 18 months to recover, I wouldn't say it cost x/year + 1/2 * x/year I would say it cost the total cost over the 18 months.

Fair point about it not being considered income, I missed that detail in my haste to make sure the only comment wasn't such a blatant misrepresentation of the cost of a program like this.

edit: now I'm just nitpicking your math, but 10% of americans make over $130k and 18.7% of americans are children. I have to think a VANISHINGLY small number of those two percentages overlap (children making over 130k) so your calculation:

(1 - .1) * (1 - .187) * 330M = 241M people

should probably be:

(1 - (0.1 + 0.187)) * 330M = 235M people

Which is not materially far off your number, but it is 6M * 2k * 6 = 72B saved for the american taxpayer ;)</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Show HN: Data Prism – Weekly newsletter about data science, ML, AI and analytics - <AUTHOR> http://dataprism.co/ <comment><USER2> My other ML news letter have a heavy emphasis on NN. I understand why, that's where a lot of novel, cutting edge ML discovery is done. Though as I've understood it NN is not as common in the industry and it would be interesting to get stuff on what's going on in other areas of data science and ML.

<comment><AUTHOR> I see what you mean. I think it's because NN is driving much of the research in the ML field. I wanted Data Prism to be a newsletter about where the industry is headed. About startups, new projects receiving attention (and funding), things that are really working and topics that the (non-technical) media is talking about. That's the difference between Data Prism and other (excellent) newsletters I receive, which are a bit more technical/academic. But still, I agree we hear a lot about deep learning and DNN lately. Maybe because people are fascinated by this new, "mysterious" technology? Or because companies claim they use it even if they're using simpler ML models?

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> RSS Feed: [http://dataprism.co/issues.rss](http://dataprism.co/issues.rss)

You could add a link to this feed in the main page. :)

<comment><AUTHOR> Great idea - thank you for the suggestion!

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Sorry, after the _fourth_ Captcha you showed me, I've given up. You might want to fix that. Why not a simple verification email like everyone else?

<comment><AUTHOR> Sorry about that. I'm indeed going to switch to a verification email system. In the meanwhile, if you wish, you can send your email address to email@example.com and I'll add you manually.

<comment><USER4> Done :-) Thanks!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Nice! Is it always sent on Fridays?

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes, normally the newsletter is sent to your inbox on Fridays around 6am PST.</comment></comment>


Show HN: Chelodina – A Logo-to-Python Transpiler - <AUTHOR> https://pablasso.com/logo-to-python-transpiler <comment><USER2> If you like PLY but not its unpythonic API, give rply a try:

[https://github.com/alex/rply](https://github.com/alex/rply)

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Here's a link to the repository: [https://github.com/pablasso/chelodina](https://github.com/pablasso/chelodina)

</comment><comment><USER3> Ah, Logo! I'd almost forgotten about that gem. Cool project! I really hope I manage to dig up some of my old school projects to try in this. Those were fun times...</comment>


Facebook exempts political ads from ban on making false claims - <AUTHOR> https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/oct/04/facebook-exempts-political-ads-ban-making-false-claims <comment><USER2> no other choice. Think about it, every ad can be seen as a lie and as absolute truth.

<comment><USER3> How so? If my political platform was guaranteeing every American gets a free unicorn there is no way that could possibly be construed as truthful.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: Best non-technical book you've read lately?  - <AUTHOR> I'm going on a short vacation and would like some interesting reading for the plane rides (and while there) to put on my Kindle. I am working through a couple of technical books, but won't have a computer to work on examples etc.<p>My most recent non-technical read was Moneyball. I started The Big Short, but for some reason didn't get into it. <comment><USER2> Finally got around to reading _Anathem_ by Neil Stephenson. Amazing book.

The thing I love about Stephenson's writing is that not only am I entertained, not only do I learn something... but that the process of understanding the story actually teaches me new ways to _think_.

<comment><USER3> If I had to pick a personal favorite(not necessarily best) book of all time, it would be Anathem.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> The Box: How The Shipping Container Made The World Smaller And The World Economy Bigger - Marc Levinson.

There are so many facets to this book. It's the story of Malcom McLean's drive to make containerisation a reality. It's a history of the global economy since WWII. It goes into detail about labour relations on the docks and about how changes in shipping change the fortunes of cities.

One stand out chapter details the logistics of getting military materiel into Vietnam before and after containerisation and then McLean's idea that there was no point bringing all those empty boxes back - might as well stop off at Japan and pick up some transistor radios.

This book is well worth your time.

</comment><comment><USER5> __The Honored Dead__ by Joseph Braude. Really interesting look into Morrocan police force and life in that country. Braude is an Iraqi Jew who speaks Arabic, Hebrew and English He goes in as a reporter to investigate the police force. He fills the book with regional color, such as, he notes others French or Egyptian ascents, mannerisms, etc. He's given the file of a 'simple' murder but comes up with some surprising results. The book came out in 2011. This true investigation is about an area of the world I rarely get a full pix of. It was a quick read and had some suspense to keep me interested. Interesting twist at the end.

</comment><comment><USER6> The Theory That Would Not Die (<http://amzn.to/w0N2Q6)is> a non-technical and nice historical overview of Bayes theorem and its applications. Another one I've enjoyed recently is Evening's Empire: A History of the Night in Early Modern Europe(<http://amzn.to/zywusB>). I started the Big Short too, but just couldn't really get into it. If you like things along that line then you should check out The Poker Face of Wall Street (<http://amzn.to/zcbYHy>)

</comment><comment><USER7> I've been reading "Catch 22" by Joseph Heller and have been amazed by how hilarious it is. Also recently finished "Life" by Keith Richards which was also very entertaining.

<comment><USER8> Major Major Major Major is one of my favorite literary characters. I definitely recommend catch 22 as a good read.

<comment><USER7> The fact that someone's name is Major Major Major Major just shows the pure brilliance of this book. I feel like I'm going to have to read through it a second time shortly after finishing it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I'm currently reading through 'Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking' by Susan Cain. It is pretty interesting/an easy read.

</comment><comment><USER10> "The Hunger Games" and "Catching Fire" by Suzanne Collins. Am now waiting my turn for the library's copy of "Mockingjay"

<comment><USER3> All three of these are excellent. Loved them.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Finishing up Machine Man by Max Barry - it's a fun book, and a quick read about a hacker who hacks on and upgrades his body parts ([http://www.amazon.com/Machine-Man-Vintage-Contemporaries- Ori...](http://www.amazon.com/Machine-Man-Vintage-Contemporaries- Original/dp/0307476898)).

</comment><comment><USER12> Terry Pratchet 'The last continent', but it is 22-nd book of a serie 'flat world'. You should start from the begining. It's a really funny fantasy, and easy to read.

Another variant is 'Rework', authored 'DHH' for example - it is easy to read and usefully! Have a great vocation :)

</comment><comment><USER13> Salt: A World History

This came out almost a decade ago to critical acclaim. I finally picked it up and am about halfway through. It is a very engaging read about the surprisingly large role that salt played in human history.

</comment><comment><USER14> Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand.

</comment><comment><USER8> If you haven't read a Kurt Vonnegut book, I highly recommend that you do. The Sirens of Titan, Mother Night, Breakfast of Champions, and Slaughterhouse 5 are all great places to start.

</comment><comment><USER15> Ever heard of The Dark Tower series, by Stephen King?

I actually started it about 6 years ago, but recently picked up The Wolves of Calla (the fifth book).

The Gunslinger (first in the series) is awesome.

<comment><USER3> Agree that The Gunslinger is awesome. Just to forewarn... you've already read the best books in the series.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> Republic Lost - Lawrence Lessig Kinda depressing, but if he gives some good examples on how to reform politics and campaign financing more specifically...

</comment><comment><USER17> Enders game, and then Enders Shadow..

</comment><comment><USER18> The whole series of Game of Thrones novels. Started out slow, but gets very engrossing.

</comment><comment><USER19> Something happened - Joseph Heller.

</comment><comment><USER20> The End of Faith, Sam Harris.

</comment><comment><USER21> A Modern Utopia, H.G. Wells. Most amazing book I've read in my life so far</comment>


Ask HN: How do you train and deploy machine learning models at your company? - <AUTHOR> Hey HN!
I've been reading a lot about ML and I've been curious: how do you train and serve models (for example, deep neural networks) at your company? Do you use a custom system or something else? How do you deploy/serve your models in production? Are there any particular pain points with your current approach?
Thanks! <comment><USER2> Curious as well. Have been looking at stuff like [https://www.floydhub.com/](https://www.floydhub.com/) and [https://www.datarobot.com/product/](https://www.datarobot.com/product/) \- we have some use cases we want to implement but nothing built yet.

</comment><comment><USER3> Flask/Docker/Postgres.. bit of a learning curve but more than enough resources online to get going.

<comment><USER4> so you save your model weights to Postgres, expose the model via an HTTP api using flask and package it w/ docker?

<comment><USER3> Full disclosure: I am a data scientist not a production-grade SWE.. in any case that sounds about right. I would probably just leave the weights loaded in memory which might be lower latency than querying a db every time you want the score. The DB is mainly there to store the json requests (or however you're receiving them) as well as the predictions for future use.

Another use case for the db would be if someone sends you data to score and you have to append other external data tables to that data, in which case you could use the db to append the data.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> not really a company, but for my (profitable) side projects I just serve the models with flask/wgsi, on a single server.

its much cheaper than the cloud solutions, but I suspect it will fall over if it ever gets on hn..</comment>


Einstein Versus the Physical Review - <AUTHOR> http://www.physicstoday.org/vol-58/iss-9/p43.html

<comment> meat-eater Anonymous peer review can be a bitch. Most people hate it when they're told that they're wrong. I imagine Einstein who always got the free pass would not take it too well.</comment>


Yahoo says Marissa Mayer has fixed its biggest problem - <AUTHOR> http://qz.com/184046

<comment><USER2> I'm pretty certain this is only somewhat true. Most companies I know (including almost all YC companies) would still need a "Yahoo premium" to go to Yahoo.</comment>


Recent Advances in Neural Program Synthesis - <AUTHOR> http://arxiv.org/abs/1802.02353v1 <comment><AUTHOR> Maybe we can create a more suitable language for AI to Synthesis,or just let AI to Synthesis the simplest language: Machine Language,it maybe more easy for AI/Machine.</comment>


Prisma's Data Guide – Educational articles to make databases more approachable - <AUTHOR> https://dataguide.prisma.io/ <comment><USER2> This was announced at Prismas annual conference: [https://www.prisma.io/day/](https://www.prisma.io/day/) The conference is live for the next 3 hours, and you can join the dedicated Slack to ask questions for the live Q&A: [https://slack.prisma.io](https://slack.prisma.io)</comment>


From India to World : Yes, We CAN do it. Go Global, Entrepreneurs - <AUTHOR> http://www.pluggd.in/indian-entrepreneurs-can-go-global-297/

<comment><USER2> nice read for indian entrepreneurs like me... thanx !!</comment>


The IQ Gap Is No Longer a Black and White Issue - <AUTHOR> http://www.unz.com/article/the-iq-gap-is-no-longer-a-black-and-white-issue/ <comment><USER2> Author of article seems to have mentally divided people in discussion into several camps, like "hereditary camp", "environmentalist camp" and some others, then assigns himself to one of the "camps" and "fights" for that "camp's" view.

It means that instead of looking at a data and trying to find predictable patterns, author is having his theory in mind and is looking for evidence supporting that theory while omitting evidence contradicting it.

Besides that, article contains many "explanations" that are not supported by any proofs, but are just arbitrary interpretations of data points. That is at the same time while criticizing "opposing camps" of doing exactly.

Sadly, race is a subject that is so tainted by politics and personal beliefs that I don't even expect to find anything objective and neutral anymore.

<comment><USER3> Did you just wish for the simpler days when race was an objective and unpoliticized science?

<comment><USER2> Even hn users can't take neutral and analytical approach without being triggered. Don't say I am surprised, most people here seem to lean towards feminism and liberalism. Is it because you are afraid to lose your "circle of friends". Kind of like highly educated people sometimes refuse to vaccinate their kids so they could continue belonging to their circle which are anti vaccers?

<comment><USER3> I can't parse this and no part of it is a response to the response I made to you.

What does being triggered mean in this context? Are you asking me if I'm afraid to lose my circle of friends? What's the vaccination angle?

Are you even reading what you're writing?

> Sadly, race is a subject that is so tainted by politics and personal beliefs > that I don't even expect to find anything objective and neutral _anymore_.

Emphasis mine.

When was race untainted by politics and personal beliefs? What objective and neutral information about race has been plowed under by politics?

Go on, double down, respond to that. Or just keep lashing out, whichever way you like it.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


All Circuits Are Busy Now: The 1990 AT&T Long Distance Network Collapse (1995) - <AUTHOR> https://users.csc.calpoly.edu/~jdalbey/SWE/Papers/att_collapse <comment><USER2> Longer-form article from 1992, which talks about the history of the phone system and covers this event: [https://stuff.mit.edu/hacker/part1.html](https://stuff.mit.edu/hacker/part1.html)

> On January 15, 1990, AT&T's long-distance telephone switching system > crashed.

> This was a strange, dire, huge event. Sixty thousand people lost their > telephone service completely. During the nine long hours of frantic effort > that it took to restore service, some seventy million telephone calls went > uncompleted.

> Losses of service, known as "outages" in the telco trade, are a known and > accepted hazard of the telephone business. Hurricanes hit, and phone cables > get snapped by the thousands. Earthquakes wrench through buried fiber-optic > lines. Switching stations catch fire and burn to the ground. These things do > happen. There are contingency plans for them, and decades of experience in > dealing with them. But the Crash of January 15 was unprecedented. It was > unbelievably huge, and it occurred for no apparent physical reason.

<comment><USER3> 'Outage' wasn't a commonly known word?

<comment><USER4> I don't think it was uncommon, at least not for power outages.

Here's a Washington Post article from 1977 that uses it:

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1977/07/15/b...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1977/07/15/blackout- paralyzes-new-york-city-for-day/eb6f9906-db2c-4561-9ca9-f3d054f01c08/)

And a NY Times article from later in 1977:

[https://www.nytimes.com/1977/10/17/archives/around-the- natio...](https://www.nytimes.com/1977/10/17/archives/around-the-nation-fire- at-electricity-plant-blacks-out-san-antonio.html)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> This presumably was pulled from the Level 3 outage discussion. Relevant comment:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24323402](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24323402)

phkahler's addendum should be painfully familiar to many:

> Contrary to what that link says, the software was not thoroughly tested. > Normal testing was bypassed - per management request after a small code > change.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24323904](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24323904)

</comment><comment><USER6> It was front page of the NY Times.

[https://www.nytimes.com/1990/01/17/us/at-t-pinpoints- cause-o...](https://www.nytimes.com/1990/01/17/us/at-t-pinpoints-cause-of- phone-disruption.html?searchResultPosition=1)

"Company executives said the malfuction occurred in a program at a giant computer switching station in the New York metropolitan area, causing the computer to send out alarm messages to other switching stations."

Interesting to see MCI taking the opportunity to talk about backup providers.

</comment><comment> at-fates-hands Interestingly enough, this was initially blamed on the Legion of Doom hacker group:

 _It was a frightening outage that rang alarm bells in more places than just AT &T headquarters. Months earlier, the Secret Service had arrested a 16-year- old hacker nicknamed Fry Guy who had told them, under interrogation, that a hacker gang he was associated with had been planning to crash the system on a national holiday._

 _That gang, the Legion of Doom, was suddenly on the law enforcement radar screen in a big way. But they weren't alone. The Texas-centric group was in the midst of an online feud with a New York-based rival, the Masters of Deception. LOD and MOD, as they were known, were at each others throats and the battleground happened to run through the phone switches and computer systems of America._

From the article:

[https://www.cybersecuritymastersdegree.org/legion-of-doom- vs...](https://www.cybersecuritymastersdegree.org/legion-of-doom-vs-the- masters-of-deception/)

</comment><comment><USER7> It felt that monumental at the time. I recorded the evening news to VHS that night.

<comment><USER8> Do you still have the tape?

<comment><USER7> Unlikely.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I'm not sure I really get the bug with the break statement. What should the code have looked like instead?

</comment><comment><USER10> Why are there so many typos...?

<comment><USER11> Optical character recognition.

<comment><USER10> Makes sense! Thanks!</comment></comment></comment>


Fasting Affects the Brain - <AUTHOR> http://www.brainfacts.org/thinking-sensing-and-behaving/diet-and-lifestyle/2018/how-does-fasting-affect-the-brain-071318 <comment><USER2> I sometimes intermittently fast for 24 hour periods, but recently I've switched to skipping breakfast, which effectively works out to be a 17 hour fast for me if I eat dinner at 6pm and have lunch at 12pm. Everyone says it's the most important meal of the day, but I haven't found convincing evidence of this(especially that which isn't sponsored by grain and sugar producers), and not having a huge insulin spike at the beginning of the day seems beneficial.

The results are profound. I'm a lot more focused and emotionally stable. The only distraction is the frequent "gotta find food" feeling, but that usually subsides within minutes. It's usually not even true hunger, but an impulse instilled in me by a culture focused on eating and "never starving".

Pro-breakfast proponents say that eating breakfast results in eating less throughout the day, but I can't say this has been true at all for myself. When I ate breakfast, I also would snack more throughout the day. Without breakfast, I look forward to meals more and those two meals, which are almost always ketogenic, are more satisfying.

The only negative effect I'm having is that my sex drive has plummeted to near-zero. I suppose that's a good thing for focusing on work, but I wouldn't want to keep that up forever.

<comment><USER3> "Breakfast is the most important meal of the day" was an advertising slogan for Kellogg's.

<comment><USER4> That sounds plausible (and interesting) but do you have a source for it?

<comment><USER5> [https://youtu.be/9Ffceu672c4?t=173](https://youtu.be/9Ffceu672c4?t=173)

Dr. Kellogg and his brother had a business creating various supposed health products and Corn Flakes was part of that.

In 1917 a magazine called Good Health, edited by Dr. Kellogg, wrote "in many ways breakfast is the most important meal of the day". That seems to be the origin and cereal makers ran with it.

<comment><USER6> > Dr. Kellogg and his brother

More importantly, Dr. Kellogg and his brother started two rival companies. The brother believed that sugar should be added to the formula Dr. Kellogg has been using to treat his patients.

Dr. Kellogg refused, believing sugar to be awful for the body.

Needless to say, we all know which of the two rival companies became the corporate giant, and which of the two rival companies disappeared into history. There was a big court case between the two rival brothers over the "Kellogg" name. After that, the two brothers never talked with each other for the rest of their lives.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Harvey_Kellogg#Breakfast_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Harvey_Kellogg#Breakfast_cereals)

Since the two were brothers, it is somewhat ambiguous to who really invented modern cereal. But Dr. Kellogg was the health-fanatic who would have been studying "healthy breakfasts" and other such stuff.

EDIT: It should be noted that 1890s / early 1900s medical science was downright awful. So definitely take any health claims from that era with suspicion. Be sure to look up "sanatoriums" and how awful their medical practices / beliefs were. There's probably a nugget of truth somewhere in Dr. Kellogg's research, but you've gotta look at his claims through the lens of history to really understand him.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> > And that's what we're finding in lab animals — the brain and body actually > perform better during fasting. In the case of the brain, cognitive function, > learning, memory, and alertness are all increased by fasting.

I find this to be true whenever I fast for 12+ hours. It feels like I'm on a drug.

It's strange to realize how not eating can be good for you.

Fun trivia: the longest a human went without food is 382 days. [0]

[0] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angus_Barbieri%27s_fast](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angus_Barbieri%27s_fast)

<comment><USER8> I've done 7 day water fasts (I try to do them quarterly, or bi-annually) and I find by day three I'm full of energy to the point where I have a hard time sleeping. I'm also way more productive during those 7 days. The only thing that tends to suffer is my weight lifting. I drop in strength a tiny bit, but not nearly as much as you'd expect. I also drop about 5-10 lbs in mass, with about half of that coming from water. Almost no lean muscle loss as far as I can tell. In fact, I always look shredded after the fast. I just ease back in with keto for a week or two, then back to low carb diet.

<comment><USER9> Being hungry increases alertness. This is discussed in "The Willpower Instinct", in the context of keeping you from sleeping well. It's natural - the body knows it needs to find food, so it makes you hyper until you do, negatively affecting the ability to get essential sleep.

So, there is nothing weird about what you are experiencing - it's like wanting to get air when you are under water. Doesn't make it a good way to do things.

It's amazing how much of a trend fasting is lately.

<comment><USER8> Yeah I'm aware of the biological reasons for why I feel the way I do when I fast. There's a lot of science backing why fasting is good for you, and it has to do with mTOR and the science behind apoptosis, for which Yoshinori Ohsumi won the nobel prize in 2016. Fasting isn't a 'trend' like say 'cleansers' are a trend. One is backed by science, and the other is just a catch phrase to sell products to people.

<comment><USER9> The question is of balance. For example, if fasting keeps you from sleeping, I consider it an issue. If fasting causes muscle loss, I consider it an issue. I read the cancer research - how much is damage is being done by not getting the nutrition you need though? It's still a trend - there is no balance defined.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I wonder how these findings can be reconciled with the research on the importance of breakfast for school children. There are obvious differences between the two issues, but nevertheless when I think about how to apply these insights, they seem to conflict, and I'm not sure how to resolve those conflicts.

Edit: The biggest difference is age, but conventional wisdom says adults, too, should eat a good breakfast before an important exam. Should you skip breakfast before your LSAT?

<comment><USER8> If you want to ace your LSAT, you're better off getting a good nights sleep and writing the exam fasted. Sleep is way more important than anything else when it comes to memory recall. Also, you should study with a particular type of perfume, and then write the exam with that same perfume. That'll also help memory recall. Breakfast is probably the worst meal of the day, in terms of metabolic health, which is why I haven't regularly had breakfast in over a decade.

<comment><USER11> I agree, except It would recommend people fast regularly before test day so the body is adapted.

I teach the LSAT and I'm astonished how some people try to do it while sleep deprived. In their regular studying too.

(Day before test nerves can impede that night's sleep, which is really unfortunate)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> [http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:YXae0gV...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:YXae0gVGTJoJ:www.brainfacts.org/thinking- sensing-and-behaving/diet-and-lifestyle/2018/how-does-fasting-affect-the- brain-071318+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)

<comment><USER13> Thanks, I was having trouble on my phone accessing the site.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Interesting that this is "news" when the medical understanding of fasting and ketosis is pretty far along.

Highly recommend the book "The Complete Guide to Fasting" by Dr. Jason Fung.

When you think about it, while the "naturalness" argument is always suspect, it's very odd that humans eat as often as we do in the US, and unsurprising that negative health consequences follow (and positive health consequences follow fasting).

<comment><USER15> > _Highly recommend the book "The Complete Guide to Fasting" by Dr. Jason > Fung._

Such books and doctors, promoting this or that diet, heavily cherry-pick from research papers, they don't reflect the scientific consensus on the matter.

<comment><USER14> I'll be interested to see where the scientific consensus is in 10 years. I think the evidence is very much on the side of the hormonal theory of obesity and fasting, especially given the monumental failure of the "calories in calories out" model.

<comment><USER16> > especially given the monumental failure of the "calories in calories out" > model.

Can you explain this in more detail? CICO seems like it might oversimplify things but it always seemed like a really sane basis for helping shape your diet. If you need to lose weight, you should plan meals to create a calorie deficit. But yes, I would not be surprised to learn that fasting on day X and consuming double your normal calories on day X+1 are not equivalent.

The description of CICO as a "monumental failure" sounds like there's substantial evidence to the contrary -- can you share more info?

<comment><USER17> This article makes a case against a calorie-centric approach to dieting. It boils down to something like Michael Pollan's "Eat food, not too much, mostly plants." A guy (who has since become an expert in public health) wasn't able to control his weight using standard calorie-counting techniques and had a lot of success changing his diet to "high quality" (as opposed to "highly processed") food. The article isn't super clear on specifics of what that means but it sounds like there might be something to it. Also worth noting that he began exercising in between this switch.

[https://www.1843magazine.com/features/death-of-the- calorie](https://www.1843magazine.com/features/death-of-the-calorie)

<comment><USER18> Eh. the articles argument appears to be that even though nutritionists, physicists, and dieters all agree that eating fewer calories than you expend causes weight loss, it isn't easy for a variety of factors. No shit. The thing is, it is the simplest expression of what needs to happen, and there is no getting around it.

I was once well north of the weight of the subject in the article and have since shed about half of it and kept it off for years. I've been through all the games your brain and body play to try and get you to eat more, and all the fad diets out there sound to me exactly like those games. It's nice to believe you don't have to suffer to reach your goals, but it isn't true and anyone telling you otherwise is trying to sell you something.

<comment><USER14> There's also good evidence that people don't maintain that weight loss over time despite maintaining their lower calorie consumption. Because base metabolic rate is something that the body can adjust, just like if you had less money to pay for heat, you could just put less heat into the house.

The role of hormones (especially insulin) in regulating fat storage and whether stored fat is available to the body as energy is better understood now, and much has been documented about how high insulin combined with low calories over time results in a lowering of the metabolic rate (resulting in stalling weight loss and then weight gain) rather than sustainable weight loss.

Also "it's nice to believe you don't have to suffer to reach your goals" is a silly and moralistic thing to say. But it typifies the american "scientific understanding" of weight loss. Fat is immoral, suffering is virtue, therefore in order to lose your immoral fat you must suffer.

Just look at all the massive success of those in the IF and keto community in living joyful lives, not deprived, losing fat etc. etc. And then look at all the people for whom calorie counting has completely failed. The information is out there (shruggie)

<comment><USER15> > _There 's also good evidence that people don't maintain that weight loss > over time despite maintaining their lower calorie consumption. Because base > metabolic rate is something that the body can adjust, just like if you had > less money to pay for heat, you could just put less heat into the house._

Well, it's not just some fixed calorie amount they need to take for an eternity. It's the amount that corresponds to their current weight and muscle mass. As those change over time (and their base metabolic rate changes), they should change their calorie target too.

> _Also "it's nice to believe you don't have to suffer to reach your goals" is > a silly and moralistic thing to say. But it typifies the american > "scientific understanding" of weight loss. Fat is immoral, suffering is > virtue, therefore in order to lose your immoral fat you must suffer._

Actually the 'silver bullet' is more typical of the american "understanding" of weight loss.

There's no silver bullet. No pain, no (weight) loss.

<comment><USER14> LOL ok, so "eat a diet and time your eating in a way that promotes healthy hormone balance and use of fat as energy" is a silver bullet but "use our magic equations based on state of the art info from 1958 to calculate your daily food needs and all your food and exercise as numbers and if your equation balances you'll lose weight" isn't. Sure.

<comment><USER15> > _" eat a diet and time your eating in a way that promotes healthy hormone > balance and use of fat as energy" is a silver bullet_

If it promises you to lose weight without limiting your calorie intake (e.g. have your weight loss cake and eat it too), then yes.

> _but "use our magic equations based on state of the art info from 1958 to > calculate your daily food needs and all your food and exercise as numbers > and if your equation balances you'll lose weight" isn't_

The laws of thermodynamics don't change because we don't have good formulas to calculate the exact amount of calories a person has a basic metabolic rate just based on their weight and height...

Calories still matter, and you should still limit your intake -- whether you do it approximately by "state of the art info from 1958" or with modern medical tests and expensive equipment. Or you know, just with eating less that you normally do, even without counting calories (if you ate 1 steak per day, and you change it to 1/2 a steak, you're eating half as much calories, even if you don't know how many exactly). Skipping BS deserts will cut even more...

No great science required, millions of people have lost way by just eating less...

<comment><USER19> Some people don't want to lose "weight", but "fat" (often specifically "subcutaneous fat", often from some specific body area).

If you're already very fit and lean, but have some stubborn fat around the "love handle" area or elsewhere, "eat less" doesn't cut it any more. Sure you can reduce that area, but not completely, and while the rest of you turns into an ugly skeleton.

<comment><USER15> > _Some people don 't want to lose "weight", but "fat" (often specifically > "subcutaneous fat", often from some specific body area)._

The latter people are then delluded, surgery aside, you can't lose targeted fat from a specific body area. You lose fat across your body AND from that area, or you don't lose fat.

At best, you can trait that area and build some muscle next to the fat.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> Intermittent fasting changed my life. I've quit coffee, eat way healthier and generally feel better & have a uplifted outlook on life. I'd definitely recommend the Zero app. I do the 13 hour fast but sometimes will go up to 15-16-17 hours whenever possible. Also don't forget to take a cheat day every now and then!

</comment><comment><USER21> Fasting is a periodic religious observance for me. The main effect I have noticed is increased irritability, but then I've never done cognitive tests while fasting.

<comment><USER22> That might be from the caffeine withdrawals. I'm trying it wihtout caffeine at all this year, and it's been great.

<comment><USER23> Or, a carb-heavy diet. When I fast while doing keto, it's almost not noticeable, and I'll often just forget to eat and suddenly realize I haven't eaten in a day or more. If I've cheated on carbs and try to jump back into fasting, I'm ready to commit murder after 10 hours.

<comment><USER21> Thanks for the info. I tend to have a carb-heavy diet. I wonder if doing a low-carb diet for a couple days before fasting would help. Or do you think it would take longer than that to acclimate?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> I stopped doing fasts because even though I did notice a boost to my productivity, most of it was due to not having to stop in the middle of the day to eat or waste time thinking about eating. In terms of cognitive benefits, going for a run for 30 minutes in the morning still seemed far superior.

<comment><USER25> >> going for a run for 30 minutes in the morning still seemed far superior

Why not both?

<comment><USER26> Fasting combined with exercise sounds like a recipe for overeating after the fact.

<comment><USER14> Once the body gets habituated to using fat stores for energy rather than glucose or glycogen, there's no particular need or urge to eat after exercise.

<comment><USER24> What if you are low on fat stores?

<comment><USER27> Define low.

Unless you're a competitive body builder on show day, you've probably got enough fat to cover a few weeks worth of energy needs.

<comment><USER24> 12% is not that low, but hardly weeks worth of energy needs.

<comment><USER27> 12% fat on a 150 pound person is good for about 63000 kcal. 31 days at 2000 kcal per day.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> Seems like the link is dead. Anyone have a summary (or cache)? I've been thinking of fasting, just to test it out - but it's hard to research as a topic because there is so much pseudo science and so many "miracle diet" blogs out there.

<comment><USER29> Cached text version: [http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:YXae0gV...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:YXae0gVGTJoJ:www.brainfacts.org/thinking- sensing-and-behaving/diet-and-lifestyle/2018/how-does-fasting-affect-the- brain-071318&client=firefox-b-d&hl=en&gl=br&strip=1&vwsrc=0)

</comment></comment><comment> g-clef ...in mice.

<comment><USER30> With a human study underway.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> What doesn't affect the brain?

</comment><comment><USER31> I found that skipping hunger (not real nutritional needs, the need to satisfy a moment through eating) made me a little hyperactive and in a way if I divert this slightly manic like rush, I can do things in deep, not in flow but almost.

</comment><comment><USER32> Anecdotal evidence but this is my third day of fasting and my productivity is significantly higher. Oddly enough, the hunger I feel is similar to what I'd feel if I skipped breakfast going into lunch.

</comment><comment><USER33> yes fasting can have benefits, but the way most Muslims do it (in summer specifically) actually hurts. your body needs a minimum amount of water and salt to work properly throughout the day.

<comment><USER34> Wouldn't that be mitigated by having enough water before he fast begins? I usually gorge water before and after my fasting for the day.

<comment><USER35> I would think that depends. In Indonesia a lot of people do just that and seem ok (though lots of hacking and coughing), and in Jordan I saw construction workers toiling in the sun all day who wouldn't drink water while fasting, which seemed dangerous to me. The Bedouins I met in Wadi Rum were more lax, saying while traveling or working, they are allowed to eat and drink even during Ramadan, as a matter of a practicality...being in the desert and all.</comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: What happened to the flagging option? - <AUTHOR>

This came about due to a discussion yesterday http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2925292 about the decline of discourse.
During that I mentioned that I used to go in and spend 5 minutes each morning flagging spam in the new tab, but I no longer have a flag link.  Some one mentioned that I might have tripped some automatic flagging limit and lost the privilege.
Has the flag link been removed or was I punished for too much flagging?  Is such a think possible?
I don't need the ability back, I'm just curious and it might help someone else from getting into this situation. <comment><USER2> I read a comment from pg once that he "grades" flags based on how many articles you flag that actually do end up being killed. So it stands to reason that if you only flag honest-to-god spam, which almost always gets killed, then you'll get a high "grade" for your flags. But if you flag stuff that you think is merely off-topic, that mostly does _not_ get killed, it just languishes with low points. So those flags would be counted against you. I of course have no inside knowledge about this. He may have changed the code since then.

For what it's worth, I go through /newest about once a day and flag only honest-to-god spam, typically three or four at a time. I've been doing this for a couple of years now, and I can still flag stuff.

</comment><comment><USER3> I've heard that there is a detector for excessive flagging. I used also to go the "newest" and flag all the spam, and be a bit aggressive about keeping HN on topic, but I don't any more. There are literally dozens of posts that I see that should be flagged because, in essence, they are content-free. They contain nothing to make you think - really think.

Fluff.

But I don't flag much any more. If you want it back, no doubt you can email PG. Be brief and to the point - he usually responds quickly to sensible requests.

</comment><comment><USER4> It's still here. I think you're on target when you guess that you may have flagged too much. I doubt it's a serious offence - you'll probably get the option to flag back in a little while.

<comment><USER5> Mine's been gone for weeks, I don't think it comes back unless someone manually returns it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> I can see the flag link. You may have tripped a mechanism.</comment>


Let me automate that for you: removing pain points from data pipeline setup - <AUTHOR> http://tech.gc.com/let-me-automate-that-for-you/ <comment><USER2> I like this. A nice, practical solution to a real problem!

Disclaimer, I work for AWS. At some point there's just too many of these data streams, so a warehouse no longer does it and we turn to data lakes. The advanced version of what the OP is trying to achieve, without any actual manual work, could be an AI, and be called Lake Formation, [https://aws.amazon.com/lake-formation](https://aws.amazon.com/lake- formation).

</comment><comment><USER3> Really great story. I feel like the same low key problem at my current workplace would instead have spawned a "let's replace everything with a data lake"-project, spawning several years with an army of consultants and at least one new major external platform. All to solve these small pain-points that you can weed out if you have a passionate and talented team who are close to the problems and have freedom to build the solutions.

</comment><comment><USER4> Nice writeup. I've used [https://www.singer.io/](https://www.singer.io/) to good effect in the past, seems like this is a similar, maybe more manual/custom approach.</comment>


Ask HN: Can you use geofencing (e.g. Foursquare) for contact tracing? - <AUTHOR> Apple and Google are going to use bluetooth to track person-to-person contacts (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22834959), but Foursquare, FB, and Google already have geofencing to track when users go to specific locations and for how long. That doesn't help with subways and buses, but wouldn't it still make contact tracing a lot easier, particularly in the suburbs?
I just glanced at the Foursquare docs (https://developer.foursquare.com/docs/pilgrim-sdk/), but I feel like a quick React Native app could be built before the Apple/Google May API release date. And that a dev would spend less time worrying about privacy and crypto because it's existing tech and users have already opted in.
Any thoughts? Thanks! <comment><USER2> Downloading an app defeats the whole purpose of contact tracing. The goal is that most of the population needs the app in order for it to be effective at all. The odds of two people who have the same app, with the correct permissions intersecting each other is incredibly slim. Additionally I don't think you fully understand how geofencing works.

See this tweet thread: [https://twitter.com/zainy/status/1248482486524379137](https://twitter.com/zainy/status/1248482486524379137)</comment>


Apple Will Announce the End of iTunes Next Week - <AUTHOR> https://genius.com/a/apple-will-announce-the-end-of-itunes-next-week?__twitter_impression=true <comment><USER2> Original article [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-05-31/apple- s-f...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-05-31/apple-s-future- ios-13-macos-10-15-watchos-6-tvos-13-mac-pro)

Previous discussion [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20065153](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20065153)</comment>


Group-O-Matic (My Startup Launch!) - <AUTHOR> http://www.groupomatic.com I am launching my startup today.  All comments/questions/feedback, however harsh/cynical/insightful, will be greatly appreciated.  Short version: free site to help people form local groups for regular events.  Even shorter version: free alternative to meetup.com.  There has not been a private or public beta.  Group-O-Matic has been released with a minimum feature set I thought would be useful.  I'm coding message boards right now, to be released shortly. <comment><USER2> This is a nifty idea, one that I could see myself using _if_ it became popular. Unfortunately, you've got a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem: there are currently no groups or events in my zip code (Boston), which means I'm not likely to visit the site regularly. I know that others will have the same reticence towards regular visits, so when I have an event or group, I'm more likely to post it where people are actually watching. I know that group starters will reason that way, and so I have no reason to keep visiting the site. And so on. It's all game theory.

You've gotta break the cycle somehow and make this useful to small groups of people that are already in close contact with each other. Maybe you can convince people to organize the next news.YC meetup on it. Or maybe you can feature in some sort of asynchronous time-shifting: let people indicate their interests now, and then as groups and events appear, give them notification.

A couple specific comments/suggestions:

I like the design of the site. Clean, minimalist, and directs you to things you can do with it.

It's really nifty that you go straight from search results to a "get new results by RSS" link. But add an e-mail option too! It may seem hard to believe, but not everybody uses RSS, _particularly_ outside of tech circles. Keep the UI simple - just have someone enter an e-mail address and it'll email you when a new group appears in your location.

It'd be nice to be able to filter searches/subscriptions by keyword as well. For example, I'm interested in startup & programming groups in Boston. I'd like to be able to say "Show me all the startup organizations in Boston", and if there are none, I want to be able to type in my e-mail address, get notified when new ones appear, and otherwise forget about the site.

If you do this, you might want to show off popular subscriptions (location + keywords) on the front page. Aside from indicating that people _are_ listening for new groups, it also could show people what interests are hottest. This could be a good signal for which groups people may want to start.

I personally would not care all that much about message boards, at least not until the site gets a lot of traffic. Then it'd be nifty, but not essential.

Rename the Help link to Help/Feedback or Help/Contact or just Contact to indicate that you're receptive to suggestions.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you for your feedback. I agree there is a major chicken and egg problem with this site. I am working on reaching out to smaller niches as you suggest. First I'm trying to interest political candidates for the upcoming 2008 election cycle. Their group organizers are generally spending their own money on meetup.com, which could be used for other things, e.g. signs. And I'm sure there are other organizers who would create supporting political groups if they knew there was a free alternative. I just need to reach them now, somehow :) As for news.YC meetups, to all out there, please consider it!

Yes, I need an email option! Working on it.

I'm working on doing message boards because the political people asked for it as their users are using them on meetup.com. I'm keeping it dead simple though (modeled after news.yc).

I will rename that Help link now. At first it was Feedback. I think you are right that Contact is better as it is more inviting for suggestion. I am of course receptive to suggestions!

<comment><USER3> About finding people to sign up...

First off, if you happen to live near a big college, maybe you could plaster up some fliers, like, "Schedule your next party or club get-together at groupomatic.com!" I know when I was at college, I would have appreciated knowing where the parties were at, finding out the the school had an anime club, etc., in some other fashion the stopping to read every flier on every notice board I passed on the off chance something was there I'd be interested in. Maybe you could work something out with whatever department oversees student activities / clubs?

*Edit: Also, what about communities that are known for get togethers of most likely not necessarily wealthy people (the folks you are trying to poach from meetup)? Off the top of my head...LUGs, Demo Sceners, Furries, Flash Mobbers, Movie Fans (how cool would it be to arrange for a bunch of serious movie fans to all hit the same theater early so the place would be full of people who know better than to be obnoxious?), Gamers (LAN Parties, etc.). These types of folks often have forums with get-together sections or 'advertising' sections you could use. The draw is for cases where either a) the community is spread over many forums (they could all centralize on you for get-togethers) or b) members of multiple groups (say, gamers who are also interested in Linux).

Just my random thoughts.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I like it. It's fairly clean and simple. Did you consider making it more Web 2.0ish? I am guessing that you'll add more search features ~ like search via activity or suchlike? When you click on location maybe open a new window so I don't have to use my back button. I think it would be cool to use Google's Maps API and have a "pin" where the groups are located. And one more thing ~ maybe a link to "learn more" and then give details about Group-O-Matic.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks. You mean colors, icons, and buttons aren't enough to be called Web 2.0? Just kidding--I hear you. I am looking for ways to make it more fun (a proxy for Web 2.0?) while keeping it simple.

Yes, I figured I'd hold off on search by term until there were a bit more groups, but it is definitely on the list.

I've been messing around with the Google Maps API, an am in fact using it presently to geocode cities outside the US. I like the pin idea. That would give it a more fun feel certainly.

I'm conflicted about the opening public group pages in a new window. Originally, I had it like that but I wonder if it confuses people who are used to using the back button. Jury is still out.

I certainly should have a learn more cool with screen shots, huh :)

Thanks for the suggestions!

<comment><USER4> As far as the open new window ~ I meant once you clicked on a group and are viewing the ABOUT GROUP box; if you click on location it opens up Google maps in the current window. I thought maybe the location should open in a new window. Just a thought :)

<comment><AUTHOR> Oh I thought you meant something else. Right, that makes sense. Changed.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I like the design. It's refreshing to see a startup that's not gradienty/shiny/stripy. :)

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> To anyone near King of Prussia, PA, I created an Internet Startup Hackathon Club: <http://www.groupomatic.com/haqsm3vj>

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> I am launching my startup today. All comments/questions/feedback, however harsh/cynical/insightful, will be greatly appreciated. Short version: free site to help people form local groups for regular events. Even shorter version: free alternative to meetup.com. There has not been a private or public beta. Group-O-Matic has been released with a minimum feature set I thought would be useful. I'm coding message boards right now, to be released shortly.

</comment><comment><USER6> Just curious, how is it different/better than say MeetUp.com?

<comment><AUTHOR> The big difference is that it is free for group organizers. Meetup.com charges group organizers a significant monthly fee: <http://www.meetup.com/help/organize/#org_cost> I wrote a post about the implications of getting rid of this fee here: [http://groupomatic.wordpress.com/2007/08/14/why-we-dont- char...](http://groupomatic.wordpress.com/2007/08/14/why-we-dont-charge-group- organizers/)

Other than that, I am trying to be simpler, more private, and add features that lead to events actually happening. I made a few departures from the meetup.com feature set already. First and foremost, I made a group scheduling feature where members help select the best date for an event. (I believe meetup doesn't have this, but I could be wrong.) Organizers can also email specific members, like those who haven't yet RSVPd or provided feedback.

Second, I allow the username space to be group specific. This is a subtle, but important, difference imo. This allows for each group to have a "Mike," "Joe," etc., i.e. it lets people use the handles on-line that they are using off-line within their local groups. It works seamlessly to the user as they just provide a handle for each group they join, which will probably be the same name each time.

Third, everything is private by default: email addresses, profiles, etc. Members can send private member and group messages that get emailed but don't display addresses. Replies forward through us seamlessly. On meetup I was put off with the fact that my name and profile information was almost immediately indexed by Google and available to the public. Maybe no one else cares about this, but I do.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Start offering free groups to everyone and anyone you know. Hopefully within a couple of months it'll get some natural traction. Good luck.

</comment><comment><USER8> Good itch I wanted scratched. I started a group.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks! Keep 'em coming!

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Nice work! I had not associated you with your username here until now.

<comment><AUTHOR> Hey, thanks! I didn't know you were on here either. I need to pay closer attention... Yeah, when possible, I have been choosing pseudo-random usernames (via pwgen) so that my accounts aren't obviously tied to me if I later decide to leave services and they don't have good removal functionality. As you may have guessed, this has happened before :)

<comment><USER9> I understand. A lot of services tend to make too much information public by default. And I think you're correct that meetup is too public. This factor hinders adoption of social services beyond the young and the extroverted.

When I see you I will show you what I've been working on.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Good. Simple and straight fwd. You will see a 15% growth once you add other features (maybe Gmap, Google calendar syncrho, etc...) and you will see a 90% growth once you read and apply this [http://particletree.com/features/the- importance-of-design-in...](http://particletree.com/features/the-importance- of-design-in-business/)</comment>


Facebook Let Kids Rack Up Charges on Parents' Credit Cards - <AUTHOR> https://gizmodo.com/facebook-let-kids-rack-up-charges-on-parents-credit-car-1832053733 <comment><USER2> This appears to be the 'article zero' for these reports:

[https://www.revealnews.org/article/facebook-knowingly- duped-...](https://www.revealnews.org/article/facebook-knowingly-duped-game- playing-kids-and-their-parents-out-of-money/)

<comment><USER3> I submitted that link to HN last night, and it was subsequently incorrectly marked as a dupe. Strange.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18995823](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18995823)

<comment><USER4> Since users have made the case that that article contains significant new information (the test we use for non-dupiness), we've unmarked it as a dupe. That makes the current submission the dupe, so I've merged the comments from this thread into that one. We will roll back the clock on the latter, since users obviously want to discuss this.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> So what is going to happen to them as a result of this?</comment>


Hedge-Fund Robots and Disgusted CEOs - <AUTHOR> http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2016-02-18/hedge-fund-robots-and-disgusted-ceos <comment><AUTHOR> Definitely the best part is the link to this image from JP Morgan's report on "Unicorns Vomiting Rainbows":

[http://imgur.com/VJ4zvWH](http://imgur.com/VJ4zvWH)</comment>


A Different Look at Software Design - <AUTHOR> http://www.developerdotstar.com/printable/mag/articles/glass_cognitive_view.html

<comment><USER2> He's saying design is trial-and-error, but it helps to have an approximately right model to start from. It seems to me that mathematics could lead us _directly_ to the right model without mistakes... or is the truth that the same trial-and-error still occurs, but just in more abstract and general terms? Does that seem right to the mathematicians here?

 _... the nature of design, as they discovered, is so intensely cognitive, happening inside the mind at mind speed, the researchers could conceive of no useful tools to help in that process!_

This is exactly my experience. The closest is diagrams with pen-and-paper, but it doesn't help that much. The more difficult part is not solving the problem, but showing that you've solved it i.e. a proof, for all possible cases. Finding a proof of a solution is as much work (if not more) than finding the solution in the first place.

 _It is by logic we prove, it is by intuition that we invent - Henri Poincaré_

The article is talking about consciously formulated conjectures, not about instantaneous insight, discussed here: p.62 of _Intuition in science and mathematics_ : [http://books.google.com/books?id=qqGWlEwWj5UC&pg=PA62...](http://books.google.com/books?id=qqGWlEwWj5UC&pg=PA62&lpg=PA62&dq=anticipatory+intuitions&source=bl&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5#PPA62,M1)

<comment><USER3> Building a mathematical model is also a process of trial and error. Which definitions are necessary? What are the invariants of the structures you build, and how must those structures interact?

Particularly when modeling CS structures, mathematics feels like programming (to me). This makes particular sense when you reason about CS structures using constructive logic -- then it _is_ programming.

<comment><USER2> I think programs that are proofs (as in COQ) is a cool idea. It _seems_ economical, in that you get two things (a program and a proof) for the price of one.

However, my experience is that adding extra constraints to a problem makes it harder and more complex to solve, whereas separating out different aspects (divide&conquer) makes it easier. Jack of all trades/serving two masters etc. That is, you'll write better code if that's all you're doing; and you'll write a better proof if that's your sole purpose. "To hit a bird on the wing your whole mind must be on that bird..." etc.

Ironically, the power I personally find in a mathematical approach is that you can freely separate out constraints in any way you like, regardless of usability or performance, in order to show some quality clearly. Combining the proof with code pushes in the opposite direction - and for me, when it's at the max complexity, this pushes it over the threshold.

I still think it's cool though, perhaps mostly because it provides an automatic test of theorems.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Does anyone have any idea what the difference between a 'model' and a 'representation' is with regards to this article? They seem to emphasize the importance of using the former instead of the latter, but I have no clear model(!) of the distinction between the two..

<comment><USER2> His full term is "representations of design", and he uses it previously in the following ways:

 _Languages aren't design; they're representations for writing down the design once we get it._

 _Quit thinking of external representations as what design is all about, and focus on mental process._

By _representations of design_ , he means something more concrete and less fluid than mental models. Even mathematical notation is less fluid than mental models, because they presuppose the terms of reference, which is a solidification of a model, which makes it harder to even visualize the problem in other terms.

BTW: lisp is more fluid than java, but less fluid than mental models.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> His 3 step iteration for the 'Essence of Design' reminded me of WikiWikiWeb's 3 step iteration for HowToLearn [<http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?HowToLearn>] They're strikingly similar except the language for learning is far more abstract and generalized.</comment>


Single Sign-On demystified: set up a custom SSO using JWT - <AUTHOR> https://blog.theodo.com/2019/07/single-sign-on/ <comment><USER2> NET::ERR_CERT_COMMON_NAME_INVALID

Not a good sign.</comment>


What are some must-know algorithms? - <AUTHOR> I'm fairly advanced in Java, and i want to learn some algorithms.
Any suggestions? <comment><USER2> Here are a few (in no particular order):

\- Dynamic Programming

\- Graph algorithms: Traversal (A*), shortest path (Dijkstra, Bidirectional, Floyd–Warshall), minimum spanning tree

\- Recursive Search Techniques

\- Search Trees (binary, n-ary, splay, AVL)

\- Suffix trees

\- Parsing using regex

\- Sorting (with all the variations)

\- Hashing

\- Greedy Algos

\- Divide and conquer

\- Genetic algorithms

There are a few other algorithms that are must-know too. I guess that would depend on the domain we are in (computer vision, machine learning, NLP, etc).

</comment><comment><USER3> Do the Advanced Algorithms course in MIT`s Open Courseware site here [http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrical-engineering-and- comput...](http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrical-engineering-and-computer- science/6-854j-advanced-algorithms-fall-2005/index.htm)

Also look into Hadoop, Mahout and machine learning in general.

</comment><comment><USER4> The best algorithm I know is to use the appropriate built-in classes, and then do something clever only if performance is an issue.

In my opinion knowing the popular and "best practice" design patterns is more important than knowing a lot of algorithms. Although I suppose they overlap a bit.

</comment><comment><USER5> Food for thought:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorting_algorithm](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorting_algorithm)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divide_and_conquer_algorithm](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divide_and_conquer_algorithm)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backtracking](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backtracking)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_programming](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_programming)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greedy_algorithm](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greedy_algorithm)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depth- first_search](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depth-first_search)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breadth- first_search](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breadth-first_search)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aho%E2%80%93Corasick_string_ma...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aho%E2%80%93Corasick_string_matching_algorithm)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimax](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimax)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A*_search_algorithm](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A*_search_algorithm)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dijkstra%27s_algorithm](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dijkstra%27s_algorithm)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford%E2%80%93Fulkerson_algorit...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford%E2%80%93Fulkerson_algorithm)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton%27s_method](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton%27s_method)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gradient_descent](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gradient_descent)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naive_Bayes_classifier](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naive_Bayes_classifier)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_regression](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_regression)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perceptron](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perceptron)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principal_component_analysis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principal_component_analysis)

Solve some of:

[https://projecteuler.net/](https://projecteuler.net/)

[http://acm.timus.ru/problemset.aspx](http://acm.timus.ru/problemset.aspx)</comment>


The Myth of the Flying Car - <AUTHOR> http://vintagezen.com/zen/2014/2/21/the-myth-of-the-flying-car

<comment><USER2> We have helicopters, which are similar to flying cars.

<comment><AUTHOR> But that's not really a flying car, at least not the kind that's been imagined in sci-fi movies.

<comment><USER2> That's true, but they're at least similar in function.</comment></comment></comment>


Art of Resistance – The Social Network Anatomy of a Kinetic Activist Group - <AUTHOR> http://datascientistinsights.com/2014/02/18/art-of-resistance-the-social-network-anatomy-of-a-kinetic-activist-group/ "As a data scientist that works in the intelligence community [...]
In a recent project, we were tasked by a client to determine if Greenpeace was or could become a significant disruptive geopolitical force" <comment><AUTHOR> "As a data scientist that works in the intelligence community [...] In a recent project, we were tasked by a client to determine if Greenpeace was or could become a significant disruptive geopolitical force"</comment>


Credit-Card Backlash Mounts as Kroger Weighs Expanding Visa Ban - <AUTHOR> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-30/credit-card-backlash-mounts-as-kroger-weighs-expanding-visa-ban <comment><USER3> Relevant: due to _Ohio v. American Express_ , merchants are generally unable to steer customers from using a particular card. For example if a merchant accepts Visa at all, the merchant has to accept all Visa cards, not selectively choose the lower-fee cards; the merchant also cannot tell the customer to use Discover instead to save costs and only use Visa if that's the customer's only card. This anti-steering provision is originally invented by AmEx and now all four major networks have this requirement. And the SCOTUS just ruled that anti-steering provisions do not violate anti-trust regulations. So the only possible recourse is to outright stop accepting a particular payment network.

[https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/17pdf/16-1454diff_6579...](https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/17pdf/16-1454diff_6579.pdf#page2)

<comment><USER4> It has been asserted elsewhere in this HN discussion that Visa charges merchants higher amounts for transactions with higher-end rewards cards.

Assuming this is true, and these anti-steering provisions prevent merchants from discriminating, what prevents Visa from issuing cards with 200% fees? What's holding the cash back level at a mere 1-2%?

<comment><USER5> Competition with MasterCard, Discover, and Amex should hold them back from doing this, because at such punitive rates merchants would definitely stop accepting them.

I believe Amex is only able to get away with its highest-in-the-industry rates because of the association of Amex cards with business expense accounts and high income earners. This is changing now ([https://www.ft.com/content/715d785e-23fc-11e8-ae48-60d3531b7...](https://www.ft.com/content/715d785e-23fc-11e8-ae48-60d3531b7d11)) especially after years of competition from banks like Chase, who have been working on creating what is essentially a structural clone of American Express' network ([https://www.reuters.com/article/us-jpmorganchase- creditcards...](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-jpmorganchase-creditcards- insight/jpmorgan-uses-its-might-to-cut-costs-in-credit-card-market- idUSKCN0R80B620150908)).

<comment><USER6> Some of the Amex fee changes will likely have been as a result of a nudge from the EU ruling that includes their double-branded cards (e.g. British Airways AmEx) in the 0.3% fee cap in Europe which previously only affected visa and MasterCard.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> [https://www.bostonfed.org/publications/public-policy- discuss...](https://www.bostonfed.org/publications/public-policy-discussion- paper/2010/who-gains-and-who-loses-from-credit-card-payments-theory-and- calibrations.aspx)

" On average, each cash-using household pays $149 to card-using households and each card-using household receives $1,133 from cash users every year. Because credit card spending and rewards are positively correlated with household income, the payment instrument transfer also induces a regressive transfer from low-income to high-income households in general."

<comment><USER8> I don't buy this because it discounts the high costs of cash controls.

Cash has high costs that likely make electronic forms of payment competitive.

You have

\- Employees skimming the till;

\- Theft insurance for a safe, the nightly amount in the safe

\- Managers balancing the cash registers with change/safe

\- Armored trucks picking up the money (2-3 men guarding the transfer)

\- Banks processing the money

\- Employee time and frustration ensuring they didn't come up short

tldr; It takes one armed robbery or employee malfeasance before ~2% fees seem very much worth it to reduce cash on hand.

<comment><USER9> If this was the case then merchants would happily encourage people to use cards rather than cash.

<comment><USER10> Outside the US merchants almost invariably encourage the use of cards. Zero places here are cash only (not even a hot dog stand) but tons are explicitly cash free. [edit: in _some_ places.]

The big savings come when you have zero cash to deal with. Then you have no counting/change/armed transport/security issues at all.

<comment><USER11> That is definitely not true in Germany. There were many places that only accepted cash while I lived there.

I just spent 2 weeks in Spain and there were many places I tried to eat that were cash ø ly.

In Chinatown in London, as well, many places are cash only.

"outside the US" is a big place, be careful to be more specific.

<comment><USER10> I know - I went to Berlin and noticed Taxis wanted cash and would not accept cards. Was like traveling 20 years back in time.

I did not mean to say all places outside the US

<comment><USER12> To be fair the only place where I saw taxis accepting cards as a rule was NYC

Practical, still a bit weary though especially without EMV readers

<comment><USER13> Go to any place in northern Europe and it's basically only card.

<comment><USER14> Denmark is pretty much only cards, but debit cards at this point, well above 80% for retail is card payments.

I normally have a few may 100 to 200DKK in my vallet, because the credit/debit card system do still fail. I haven't run into anything in the last few years where I could pay with card or mobile payment.

<comment><USER11> Between my debit card and Mobilepay, I haven't used cash in nearly 2 years living in Copenhagen so I finally ditched my leather bifold wallet and made a slim card holder out of an IKEA bag. It's only been a month or so, but so far no regrets.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> In Denmark we have a national payment system called Dankort. All issued Visa cards also work as Dankort. Transaction fees on Dankort is one tenth of visa, and all payment terminals default to Dankort. This saves Danish retail a lot of money while still ensuring they we can buy stuff online and when traveling using visa.

<comment><USER16> To be clear that's due to laws in Denmark that require its acceptance and granting it a particular monopoly status?

I'd be curious what the issue rate between the Dankort & the Kroger Plus Card. It's conceivable that Kroger has the market heft to do with selling power what Denmark did with law.

As context Kroger employees about the same number of people as 1/10th of Denmark though I have no idea how that translates to ability to change card usage.

<comment><USER17> You can't safely inconvenience all your customers even if you're at Kroger's scale. Walmart is extremely eager to kill you if you're Kroger, to gain market share in groceries. It leaves no safe opening to upset a large share of your customers: many will go across the street to Walmart.

<comment><USER18> Walmart has had similar spates in the past. They stopped accepting Visa at various Canadian stores last year when negotiating rates with Visa.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> This seems like a missed opportunity for Google Pay and Apple Pay. Before smartphones and NFC, it would've been too much for every merchant to make their own card, nobody is going to carry that many cards.

But imagine if Target, Walmart, Best Buy, etc. made store cards and they all integrated with Google/Apple Pay. When a customer enters the store, the app could automatically pick the right card. Google and Apple just needs to be cheaper than the rates charged by Visa/MC/Discover/Amex.

For example, I have a Target Redcard. Why isn't this card integrated with Google/Apply Pay? They've already setup the financial infrastructure to extend credit to customers. It should be a small step to add this to Apple/Google Pay.

<comment><USER20> Target's RedCard is a significant advantage they've built over all their competitors. They don't have to pay the fees, customers get a discount, and they get easy access to the data on your purchases. I'm surprised more retailers don't do it.

<comment><USER21> Many retailers have their own cards: [https://wallethub.com/credit- cards/store/](https://wallethub.com/credit-cards/store/)

<comment><USER22> It's easy to forget too that the history of credit cards was that they started as _store credit_ cards, and centralized and inter-operated from there. When credit cards first started you would have one per store only usable in that same store.

(Also note how gift cards/stored value cards/"prepaid credit" cards recently seem to be following a similar trajectory. It is somewhat fascinating.)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> In Australia, despite the credit card companies and banks fighting tooth and nail against it, it's legal for merchants to charge credit card fees _and_ the fees have to be proportionate to the actual merchant cost.

[https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/prices-surcharges- receipts...](https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/prices-surcharges- receipts/credit-debit-prepaid-card-surcharges)

Unsurprisingly, nobody uses AmEx or Diners here, because nobody's keen on paying 2% surcharges.

<comment><USER24> Plenty of places charge no fee for Amex. Usually bigger ones like Woolworths, Coles, David Jones, etc.

I use it whenever I can (for the frequent flyer rewards), and I expect quite a lot of people do since they do billions in revenue over here (but unfortunately have managed to pay no tax in Australia for several years according to investigative journalist Michael West [1]).

1\. [https://www.michaelwest.com.au/american-express-pays-no- tax-...](https://www.michaelwest.com.au/american-express-pays-no-tax-on- multibillion-dollar-australian-operation-for-seven-years/)

<comment><USER23> Oh, I used to use Amex here myself, but no-fee Amex acceptance really is limited to the thousand pound gorillas who can extract the best rates for themselves. Then the banks gutted consumer earning rates and I got tired of swapping between Amex and Visa in Google Pay, so I changed to a Visa with slow but steady points everywhere.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> I hate credit card fees as much as the next guy, but to be fair my credit card was the only way I could pay for things in Asia since I just lived there for 6 months. If I had used cash, the only ATM near me stole my friends debit card, and multiple people I know were robbed and pick-pocketed. My credit card insulated me from those risks, which I was fine paying an extra 1% for.

Now that I'm back in America the risk is far less, but what alternatives in America are there? I hope the payment apps/wallets become universal but we definitely aren't there yet.

<comment><USER26> Yep. The US is reasonably safe in this regard, but I've had credit cards skimmed a handful of times. These cases were dealt with with little more than a quick call to custom service, but had it been my debit card that was skimmed, it would've been bad news.

For this reason I carry only a small amount of cash (just enough for cash only bars/restaurants) and never carry my debit card. My primary payment method is credit card with an increasing percentage through Apple Pay.

<comment><USER27> My own experience is that the United States is an extremely risky place to use a credit or debit card, and it's the only place where I've ever had a credit card skimmed (from living and travelling around Europe and Brazil) - <USER2> separate times. It's also the only place where I could almost never make contactless or chip+pin payments, and had to swipe and sign.

<comment><USER28> Typical card transactions now use chip with no pin. They maybe collect a signature electronically (but I think this may be mostly to make the customer happy).

Swipe is far from dead though.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> A lot of problems would go away if all merchants (voluntarily or by law) explicitly charged their payment costs to the customer. Both for card and cash transactions, because cash handling isn't free either.

The customers using high reward cards would then soon discover that they are just paying for those rewards themselves, and the free market would quickly push everyone to the most efficient payment systems.

<comment><USER30> > A lot of problems would go away if all merchants (voluntarily or by law) > explicitly charged their payment costs to the customer.

At least in the US, the contract the retailer signs with the CC processor to be able to accept CC's explicitly bans passing the card fees on to the customer as a specific line item in the receipt.

Which really translates to the merchant increaseing their prices by 1.02x to compensate for the 2% (avg. estimate) fee the cards charge. So the customer still pays, but they do not directly see what part of the price goes directly to the payment network.

<comment><USER31> What prevents a seller from giving a cash discount line item for cash transactions?

<comment><USER30> Nothing, anymore, in the US at least. A court case a few years back resulted in retailers having the right to offer an "X% off if paying with cash" discount to customers.

But they are still barred from doing the reverse (line item for X% more for CC transaction on the receipt).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> I like my rewards Visa more than I like Kroger. Good luck with that ban, guys.

<comment><USER33> I wish credit card fees would come down, they're ridiculously high and increase the price of doing business, which increases the prices you pay for items.

<comment><USER34> Most people that care get a substantial portion of those fees back (either as cash or rewards). So in reality, those fees are a tax on the poor, the un- creditworthy, and the financially illiterate.

<comment><USER35> Do you really? Maybe it's country-specific, but in Australia there are no programs which give you that many benefits. Likely the best are the airline points, and even then they don't cover close to the payment processing fee total.

<comment><USER36> There's been a recent change in Australia, the Reserve Bank put a cap on the maximum interchange fee credit card companies can charge in Australia (capped at 0.8%). As a result, many of the cards that earned the best rewards have been scrapped. I had an AmEx card that was good for earning airline points, the bank cancelled the card after the Reserve Bank ruling.

[https://www.smh.com.au/business/banking-and-finance/rba- chan...](https://www.smh.com.au/business/banking-and-finance/rba-changes-set- to-cut-credit-cut-frequent-flyer-rewards-20151203-gled44.html)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> I'm not sure I understand why this is a big deal all of the sudden. Don't retailers already account for these costs when they're choosing prices?

<comment><USER38> The average profit margin for a mainstream grocer (like Kroger) is 1-2 percent. It's a low-margin, high-volume business.

Said differently, it's exactly the type of business that I'd expect to care deeply about transaction fees.

<comment><USER39> Is this the overall profit margin, or is it what it is once it accounts for spoilage and other losses (theft ect.)?

I ask, because 3% cc fee from a 2 percent margin is huge, but a 3% fee from a 80% margin that averages out to 2% because of spoilage is much smaller.

<comment><USER38> Gross margins are around 20%. Net margins are 1-2%.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> Good? I hate the asinine secondary market of "points". Just don't take the money in the first place and then we don't have to sort out how I can reclaim it somehow.

<comment><USER41> So you hate getting something back for choosing one payment method over another when there's no indication that retail stores would lower their prices if credit cards (and their transaction fees) were wiped out?

<comment><USER42> There is some indication of that - gas stations have seemed to be leading the push here, with "cash-only" prices, but you'll also see places with CC fees or minimums (as much as the providers try to crack down on this).

<comment><USER43> This goes through cycles every few years. We seem to be in the cash discount part of the cycle now. Then stations discover they don't like losing customers who want to pay by credit but are getting "ripped off." Admittedly apps may make things different this go-round.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER44> At this point they should consider investing in their own debit-like card issued by themselves. You prepay it with $100, you get extra 5% loaded on the card, and additional discounts for using it. The retailer saves on per transaction fees since they will have to only pay it once for $100.

<comment><USER45> This is basically the approach Amazon and Starbucks have taken. Every $25 card reload via the Starbucks app probably adds up to a lot of money in saved transaction fees.

<comment><USER46> AFAIK such cards make money primarily on breakage, i.e., points that people buy but do not use.

<comment><USER45> That would make sense. There's also the customer loyalty factor. I use the Starbucks app a lot (probably too much if I'm being honest), and all of the "stars" and "challenges" definitely work in terms of gamification.

PS you can pry my caramel macchiato from my cold, dead, jittery hands.

<comment><USER5> It's win-win: Starbucks keeps their most loyal customers loyal and likely uses the "unspent" money to subsidize the loyalty program.

<comment><USER47> I doubt they are able to use that money without it showing up as a loan (oversimplification).

While they get $25 in cash, they also get $25 in obligation/debt to you (eg: they owe you $25 in products). If you don't use it, after a jurisdiction dependent time, it goes to the jurisdictions treasury (at least in some areas). Or in other words they can't count that $25 as money they have until you the use credit.

It's probably more complicated than this as I'm not an accountant.

<comment><USER45> I know that typically with gift cards the dollars fall into a "deferred revenue" account until they are actually realized as a sale against a product/service tied to an income account. You can say "We have X amount in deferred revenue" but can't actually show it as recognized until certain things happen (VSOE rules for software, etc). In the case of Starbucks I think it would be similar, though I'm not sure if using their app for payment qualifies as a "gift card" in the same sense or not.

I believe there are also different laws in different states and jurisdictions related to "breakage", e.g. some states don't allow gift cards to expire whereas others do, so in the latter you can forecast breakage upon set dates whereas in the former it's a lot harder to do because you basically "owe" a product or service indefinitely.

PS I am not an accountant but I've worked with a lot of them via backend billing systems implementation and development.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER48> The penetration of credit cards into everyone's daily life is already too deep. Let's face it, at this point they already got everybody well locked up. Any attempts to resist from just a few companies here and there are really just futile.

<comment><USER49> Not really. Smartphone apps can be a game changer since they require so little infrastructure to adopt. Look at Venmo. In Sweden a banking revolution is taking place where an app similar to Venmo that instead was developed by a consortium of banks has quickly gotten mass adoption, recently also including at retail. I bought strawberries from a street stall using my phone.

<comment><USER50> The exact same is happening in Denmark. The huge players are under fire from new fintech startups.

It has been amazing to see how fast such apps gain penetration in the market.

<comment><USER14> Honestly I can't think of a single fintech startup in Denmark that's is any competition to the banks and card companies.

The only two apps that really have any penetration is MobilePay, but that's the large banks, and eDankort, but that's NETS.

There are a fintech startups, but they all work with or for the large players.

<comment><USER50> Due to regulations I think it is difficult to find any fintech which a small bootstrapped startup in the traditional sense. Some bank tie-in is needed. And by that I might be overloading the startup moniker.

My point was that they're still tiny compared to the giants such as AmEx or Visa. And it shows that the old players can be unseated faster than expected.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER51> Maybe this is crazy, but it seems like Google or Amazon could compete with a credit card network with lower merchant fees. Besides being great, it would be great PR.

<comment><USER52> Technically, i'm sure you are right. But, to give these guys even more of my data - in this case my other spending habits? Ugh.

</comment></comment><comment><USER53> In the early days of the Republic, individual Banks used to print their own currency. It was all dollars, but it was produced by different companies.

Now our different dollars are plastic or even just ephemeral, the difference being that they may not be universally usable. Something's definitely wrong here.

</comment><comment><USER54> The article mentions technological alternatives - what are they? There is no way blockchain can fill this void, so .... what can do electronic payment if not the giant card networks?

interesting problem

<comment><USER10> Many countries have (as yet) free electronic transfer services (Vipps in Norway, Swish In Sweden etc). Originally used mostly for p2p transfers, it's showing up more and more as an accepted payment form. Obviously these systems also have costs they need to cover, but there is a good chance they will remain much lower than card fees. The big issue with them is that they are national. Even if every individual and many businesses in Norway have Vipps, you can't use it to pay in a Danish web shop.

<comment><USER54> A glance at wikipedia makes this a mobile app that requests transfers from bank account to bank account via a participating bank.

Which is basically replacing visa with the Norwegian bank.

I guess I have never wondered about it before, but i am surprised there is not a international common payment request protocol - "move 100 from a to b". Each bank could have their own gateway but as long as it understood the protocol ...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER55> Maybe swipe will save us from a cashless society. Else ... don't want to think it.

</comment><comment><USER56> Does this also include debit cards?

</comment><comment><USER57> bitcoin solves these kind of problems. and yes merchants can auto-convert so they don't need to speculate on price.

</comment><comment><USER58> Kroger bought out a local chain here in Michigan (Hiller's) that was way better than Kroger and then laid off the Hiller's employees and killed the chain. I'm never gonna feel any sympathy for Kroger.

</comment><comment><USER59> > over the $90 billion they pay in swipe fees every year.

> Kroger's revenue was 122.7 billion USD in 2017

That makes little sense and makes me wonder why Kroger does not issue its own credit card. Credit cards are a rent-seeking racket that eat lots of profit. Everyone knows it but no one knows what to do about it.

<comment><USER60> I wonder if Apple and others that can generate "soft" credit cards could make this (essentially 1 card per merchant) work pretty easily and seamlessly for consumers. I don't know what underlying infrastructure they have though, are they still heavily dependent on Visa/Mastercard/Amex networks under the hood to do the dirty work or do they have a parallel system?

<comment><USER8> Your summoning of Apple is funny because one reason many merchants disabled NFC is because Apple tacked on an additional fee for those purchases.

<comment><USER61> Apple gets a cut of the intercharge fees that the banks charge (much higher in the US than overseas), but it is not an additional fee to the merchant last I researched.

A lot of the NFC issues were either competing tech, payment networks not being ready, people not understanding their system configuration, _or_ intercharge fees being different for that whole category of fees (not specifically Apple Pay).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER62> These kinds of problems (swipe fees, etc) is where I believe cryptocurrencies shine.

Having a fee payment which is reasonable and fast confirmation times would solve this problem immediately removing the need for third parties.

<comment><USER63> This is where government regulation shines - 0.3% max fee in the EU

<comment><USER64> Ah that explains why I was put on hold for 1 hour and 20 minutes when I called Visa Customer Service in France.

<comment><USER63> Visa have a customer service line? (Serious question)

The only time I've ever interacted with them directly was a job interview for a role in their UK office in Basingstoke (I didn't take it).

If I had a problem with my card I'd call my card issuer. Not VISA. Why would you have to talk to them?</comment></comment></comment></comment>